# The Big & Dandy 25I-NBOMe Thread



## dylan007

Continued in thread 2 here.



> *25X-NBOMe, 25X-NBOH SAFETY MESSAGE*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> This is a newly discovered group of chemicals, with little history of human use.
> It has already become clear that these substances carry substantial risks that must be highlighted.
> 
> Examples of chemicals belonging to this family include 25i-NBOMe, 25c-NBOMe, 25i-NBOH, 25c-NBOH.
> Nicknames include "25i", "25c", N-bomb, N-bome etc.
> 
> *Some facts you should know about The 25X - NBOMe series:*
> 
> *25x NBOMe chemicals have killed at "normal" recreational doses.*
> 
> We don't know how it kills.
> People have died from doses that are smaller than ones they've taken in the past.
> We don't know the reasons why it is so unpredictable yet.
> *Doses can lead to psychotic episodes and ER visits*
> 
> If you or people around you must take these drugs, avoid combinations and advise others to avoid it as well.
> If someone appears to be overdosing, it is important to get medical attention quickly to minimize chance of death or injury.
> *These chemicals are sometimes mislabeled and sold as LSD or "acid"*
> 
> If in doubt about your drugs, learn how to test them using testing kits/reagents. Don't have blind faith in the reputation of your source.
> A good rule of thumb these days is "if it's bitter it's a spitter"
> If you take blotters sold as LSD, swallowing them may render NBOMe type compounds inactive while swallowing LSD will work just as well!
> *25x is difficult to dose properly*
> 
> Tolerance builds quickly, but toxicity may still occur.
> Doses can often be unpredictable and uneven, even from the same sheet.
> There is an unknown but narrow margin between a fun dose, and an overdose.
> Reactions may vary wildly between individuals, but can also be inconsistent for the same person. Previous successful experiences offer no guarantees.
> 
> NBOMe substances are cheap and widely available, however they are not well understood, and have caused a number of deaths. There are safer and (arguably) better substances to begin with than these. *Know your drugs, do your research, and spread the word!**
> 
> And finally information for people pushing the dosage with NBOMe's:*
> 
> The NBOMe series is known to be more dangerous than other psychedelic drug families. High doses can easily result in severe reactions such as seizures and HPPD. It is possible to get away with high doses because the mental component of the trip is mild so it may not feel as intense as other psychedelics even though there are powerful visuals. In order to try and overcome this some users take several doses to get a more intense/spiritual experience. While this does work for some, for others this is where the serious side-effects emerge.
> 
> As a result of this it is recommended that if you are seeking an intense experience, something more than eye candy, you select a different psychedelic with a higher natural intensity and better safety record such as 2C-E or LSD.
> 
> It is *strongly* advised that users do not take more than 1.5 doses of this drug, with one dose generally agreed to be x.x mg (xxxxu g).
> 
> Insufflating doses further increases the risk.



So what do you guys think on this chemical, i tried to search for a thread 25I-NBOMe but i couldn't find it so i'm taking it this is the first?

There was only a thread for 25C-NBOMe not "25I" 

*Taken From Wikipedia *

25I-NBOMe acts as a highly potent agonist for the human 5-HT2A receptor, with a Ki of 0.044 nM, making it some sixteen times the potency of 2C-I itself, and a radiolabelled form of 25I-NBOMe can be used for mapping the distribution of 5-HT2A receptors in the brain


Sixteen times the potency of 2C-I - Sounds crazy

Here is the wiki link please reply on what you think of this RC which is being developed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe

*Problems*

500mcg dosage - Half a miligram dosage sounds ridiculously strong

*Trip Reports*

not yet available my sample will be arriving next week


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## Blowmonkey

Here's a couple of excerpts from the 25B-NB (n-Benzyl-2C-B) thread in ADD.



			
				Erny said:
			
		

> David's NBOMe-2C-I is a true gem. Basically it resembles PEAs, but is much like acid in some of it's effects, especially in the emotional area. It is full with the deep glowing LSD-like empathy that is uncommon within phenylethylamines.
> 
> The activity of bomamines in humans are sometimes inverted: NBOMe-2C-I requires 500-1000 mkg for a trip. When insufflated or injected i/m, they need a full hour to come up, even 1,5 hours in the case of NBOMe-2C-I.





			
				tryptamineded said:
			
		

> Not so long ago I have tried one new compound that was presented as BOM-CI to me
> I could not find the formula for this one, but I think it was one of these N-benzyl-phenethylamines (2-meo)?
> It was a small pill with only 1mg of bom-ci in it, and it was told to me that it works only if you snort it. I have very high sensitivity to all PEAs, so I decided to try only half (500mics).
> So I made a powder from pill and snorted it. I didn’t have any discomfort in nose and effects started to come up after about 10 minuets.
> The trip was very intense with a lot of multilayered visual patterns, strange, but some of them reminded me my usual tryptamine visuals, and people were looking very grotesque. Both OEV and CEV were very colorful and multidimensional.
> The mental aspect of the trip was also very intense and I even started to have a small paranoia about myself and people that was surrounding me, but also there were a lot of productive thoughts and personal insights.
> Body feeling – usually I have a lot of unpleasant muscle tension on PEAs, this time it wasn’t that bad, yes, the general “PEA feeling” was present, but comparing with other PEAs the body feeling was pretty smooth.
> The trip lasted about 6 hours plus some after-effects.
> All in all I was really impressed with this compound, it gave me some insights and visuals that are uncommon for other PEAs and it has the feeling of freshness in it.





			
				Erny said:
			
		

> Apropos of this, 2 mg of NBOMe-2C-I or B can lead to a confusion and/or delirious state, and as little as 4 mg can kill you. This is not an average lethal dose, rather it can be lethal for a sensitive person. I am not one of these, as I have actually overdosed myself by error with 30 mg NBOMe-2C-B once. Not only I am alive, but had no consequences of it at all. But I am certainly not the person to follow the example of.
> 
> Taking all that into account, one should never, under any circumstances, take more than one milligram of NBOMe-2C-I or B, if not familiar with the chemical. One third or one half of a milligram is a better idea to start with. Some people may have lover sensitivity, but for the most the doses I have given in my previous posts are reasonable.





			
				Erny said:
			
		

> While literature states NBOMe-2C-I has higher 5-HT2A affinity than NBOMe-2C-B, their potency in man change in inverse order from some point. Possibly at the point where hydrophobicity of the molecule becomes so high that it starts to impede it's ability to reach the brain fast enough. Trifluoromethyl is even more hydrophobic than iodine. NBOMe-2C-I also have the longest onset, generally 1,5 hours.
> 
> Strangely, not only quantitative, but also the qualitative potency increases when going from I to Cl. NBOMe-2C-I effects are comparatively mild even at heavy doses





			
				Schlaang said:
			
		

> At a festival i saw one guy who snorted 4 mg of NBOMe-2C-I within 1 hour and didn't feel any effect at all.
> With same stuff some other people shared 2 mg for 5 persons and all of them was tripping quite intense.


http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=388351


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## dylan007

thnaks for the extracts dude


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## reformer

dylan007 said:


> *Trip Reports*
> 
> not yet available my sample will be arriving next week



Hi... Did you receive the sample and have a chance to try it?

Please provide any information that you can about this compound, when you have a chance.

Thanks!


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## PhyllipThylamine

reformer said:


> Hi... Did you receive the sample and have a chance to try it?
> 
> Please provide any information that you can about this compound, when you have a chance.
> 
> Thanks!



I second that, very curious about these compounds & looking for BL reports while I try source them


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## egor

I think there are some TR's on that russian site


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## amanitadine

There are. And there is one from Erny in the Trip Reports section here. Seems to be his fav N-Benzyl PEA....


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## FractallyChallengd

Just a little bump

Has anyone tried this one yet?

I have an order on the way, been very impressed with the Chloro version,its a huge amount of fun but it does feel somewhat superficial and lacking in depth, I'm hoping the Iodo is slightly deepe , at least that is what I have been able to ascertain from reading as much as possible


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## CaptainAmerica

I'll have some of this by the weekend hopefully. I've heard 500ug as a good dose for this substance, any tips on a good starting dose?

This will be the first time I'm doing any NBOMe, but I have experience with many other psychs.


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## StickyChron

This particular NBOMe sounds right up my ally. I think I'll try to find this bad boy to start my NBOMe career.


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## CaptainAmerica

So i insuffilated 500ug of 25I-NBOMe about 25 minutes ago but feel hardly off baseline. Although I accurately liquid measured it, I let the liquid evaporate thus leaving only a tiny amount of powder but also increasing my chances of improper absorption.

How long do you recommend waiting until I attempt to dose again?


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## Solipsis

I think Erny said NBOMe's cause notoriously strong tolerance effects, you would probably be best off waiting two weeks unless you don't mind a drop in reaction of unknown proportion. It could really be feasible that even if you had mild effects, you would still get tolerance since they have such incredible affinities.


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## CaptainAmerica

Wow, two weeks!

So you're saying that even if I redosed 45mins to an hour after initial dosing, that tolerance could already be affecting the 2nd dose?


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## Solipsis

No I'm not saying that. Actually not sure about rapid redosing. Desensitization might occur that fast but I don't know, in general I would say that by the time you get a good feeling of the level of the plateau you have reached it is too late. If I were you I would not try to say too fast that it's not enough, for all you know it might hit you like a bag of bricks a little later.

My recommendation is treat this responsibly and see what happens from the 500 ug. If it is disappointing go higher next time. If you redose now another drawback is that it will be harder to predict next time what kind of bolus (instant/at once) dosage you ought to take for similar effects. It will mess up your certainty of titration.


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## apsig

@CaptainAmerica:

I say wait it out...

Looks like it's been a little over an hour since you insufflated. Any first alerts yet? Apparently this can take 1.5 hrs to kick in even with insufflation; see some of the quoted posts above by erny....


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## CaptainAmerica

Well I spoke too soon lol. What I mistook for little effect was just a slow come-up to substantially strong effects. My impatience came from comparing this to 25C-NBOMe I think, so its a good thing I didn't redose any further.

I am the 3hr mark and effects are _still_ building, but I'm doing great! Won't be able to make any conclusions till its over though. so I'll leave it at that as I don't wanna taint this thread with live trip-updates


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## lava

...  I was just about to say "just do the lot", then I read the entire post (so far).  Ive never snorted anything that took more than 10 mins too kick in.

Me thinks I'd better keep my trap shut.

Good Luck mate, enjoy !


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## basement_shaman

lava said:


> ...  I was just about to say "just do the lot", then I read the entire post (so far).  Ive never snorted anything that took more than 10 mins too kick in.
> 
> Me thinks I'd better keep my trap shut.
> 
> Good Luck mate, enjoy !



Then you've never snorted MXE, but that's a whole other story 

I just wanted to say that I am following this thread with great interest.


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## theotherside

As it turns out I will getting this one first as far as the NBOMe's are concerned. Would like to wait and try it at the beach soon but will probably do a few allergy tests leading up to it. High hopes for this one.


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## CaptainAmerica

So I prepared 10 25I-NBOMe gel tabs at 500ug each.

Question I have: While cooking the gelatin down, the 25I/gelatin solution got close to boiling, 180-190 degrees F (It was in a double-boiler set-up). Would that have destroyed any of the 25I-NBOMe? Does anyone know safe temperatures with this compound?


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## Addam

I have some 25I-NBOMe, but I'm running into problems with solubility in bacteriostatic water at 1mg/mL. Anyone with experience with this particular one have any advice?
25D presented no problem whatsoever at that concentration.
I'm hoping someone can help me avoid wasting material and give me a couple pointers.
Add a slight bit of Hcl or acetic acid to aid in dissolution?


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## Klonopin King

Sound's like a promising new substance, can't wait to hear more!


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## B9

Addam said:


> I have some 25I-NBOMe, but I'm running into problems with solubility in bacteriostatic water at 1mg/mL. Anyone with experience with this particular one have any advice?
> 25D presented no problem whatsoever at that concentration.
> I'm hoping someone can help me avoid wasting material and give me a couple pointers.
> Add a slight bit of Hcl or acetic acid to aid in dissolution?



Adding a little heat may help.


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## sekio

Addam, if it's the freebase you should add acid.


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## Addam

Well, this was a learning experience I guess 
It was supplied to me as the Hcl, btw.
Heat did not help. I reached the melting point and it still hadn't dissolved. 
I added a touch of acetic acid, stirred, repeated and it did go into solution.
I'll probably do a trial with a solution of Hcl next.


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## Addam

This will be a brief write-up   
650 mcg of 25I-NBOMe was administered by IM injection in the deltoid. 
Contrary to earlier reports about a long come-up even with IM, I was at a ++ in 2 minutes and achieved +++ in ~5 minutes. It continued to increase in intensity for ~20 minutes at which point it leveled off. Visuals were extremely detailed, but vision had a slight blurry quality to it. Each object in the room, despite not having a terribly different appearance, was surrounded by what I can only describe as a very textured aura, with a seeming vibrating/pulsating character to it.
CEVs were fantastic; I would find myself in a 3 dimensional space with spires rising, changing and coming together in the center. I also experienced some lovely visions of people (not people I knew) and some of erotic character.
Thought process was not as deep as 25D-NBOMe, but it may have been the situation that day, as I didn't exactly dedicate a lot of time to thinking about things as I normally do and wasn't in seclusion as I normally prefer for these experiences   . I was able to function pretty well with others and ended up venturing outside towards the end of the experience.
While walking outside I noticed a nice feeling, not of euphoria but just of genuine contentment and satisfaction with who I was and how I have been living my life. I felt very fortunate. 
There wasn't really much for negative effects. A slight tremor or shakiness was encountered at a couple points, but it wasn't bothersome and passed quickly. No negative body-load or nausea at any point.
After a 2 hour plateau, effects began to gradually decrease, visuals were only faint at 4 hours and by 5 hours I felt comfortable enough to drive for some tobacco. There was a lingering humor for the rest of the day, things just seemed good-natured and funny to me.
It seems there must be a subtle stimulation because after the experience had subsided I set to work detailing my home, which is something I definitely would not do under normal circumstances, lol. But certainly not an overt stimulation.
I enjoyed this substance and I could see it being a regular on my calender, although next time I will raise the dosage to perhaps 750mcg.
Perhaps another experience with a higher dosage and an environment more conducive to reflection will allow this substance to show more of the depth that it hinted at.


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## Pegasus

So, what is the best liquid measurement for this?  Bacteriostatic water plus a small amount of acid to help dissolve?  I typically use propylene glycol for most liquid measurements because of the ease and stability but it does not seem practical for this considering it must be insuffulated.  Thanks for any help.


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## Addam

Depending on your intended ROA, you could most likely also dissolve it in alcohol. You may or may not need acid to dissolve it, but I did need some to get it in solution.


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## Pegasus

^Nasal is what I was thinking?  Is there a better route?  I thought oral did not work.  I'm not going to IV/ IM for the record... 

(Does sublingual/ buccal work well?  I'm pretty good at getting propylene glycol mixtures to absorb through the mouth...)


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## Addam

Couldn't tell you 
IM is the only ROA I've tried so far.
Depending on what form you get it in, it may dissolve in just plain water. However, mine was supplied as HCl and it did not dissolve in water. It's possible though it was not actually HCl.
Alcohol may be unpleasant in the nose, but it would probably work. 
Sublingual has been the most popular method (pretty scant reports, however), but I view it as most likely less efficient. Worst case you might just have to titrate your dose to find an effective level with sublingual.

ADD: From what I understand the NBOMes are not active orally.


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## IamMe90

If it didn't dissolve in water (did you try heating it at all?) then it was probably freebase. 25i should dissolve in water easily.


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## Addam

I had tried heating it slowly while agitating the solution. It reached the melting point before it dissolved. 
I'd be more inclined to believe it was the freebase if I saw any 25I being offered anywhere that wasn't HCl.
Perhaps I'll do a recrystallization of all of my material with a slightly acidic solution just to make sure it is in my preferred form.


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## IamMe90

Right, I'm actually receiving some 25i soon as well and it was sold as HCl... I haven't seen any freebase offered but it is strange that the salt didn't dissolve easily in water.


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## skillet

The melting point of the HCl salt is way above the boiling point of water. That it melted in warm/hot water suggests it's probably the freebase. Or possibly a different salt with a lower melting point and water solubility than the hydrochloride.

Nice write up btw.


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## Addam

What exactly is the melting point? I haven't been able to find much data on the actual physical properties


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## skillet

It's a bit under 170oC for the HCl salt, freebase I've no idea.

Edit: It's reported in Heim's thesis as 166oC.


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## psykap

Pegasus said:


> ^Nasal is what I was thinking?  Is there a better route?  I thought oral did not work.  I'm not going to IV/ IM for the record...
> 
> (Does sublingual/ buccal work well?  I'm pretty good at getting propylene glycol mixtures to absorb through the mouth...)




Unfortunatelly buccal and sublingual are inactive  I took doses to 3 mg and I didnt felt  any interesting effects , today I am going try 1 mg intranasally so we will see


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## psykap

Somebody can tell me how u prepare 25I to consumption ? 
First time when I receive 25I I made blotters with this but unfortunatelly proved that it isnt active for buccal and sublingual ROA ( probably its  caused very high hydrophobicity , its not likely to exceed BBB  . I felt only light effects . 2 weeks later I decided made dissolve water in 1mg-1ml concetrantions but this time appeard new trouble . 25I - NBOMe is very poorly soluble! I tried heat solution but  vain . I wanted to do with the nasal drops  so next time I decided prepare solution 50% water and 50 % ethanol and what? Failure again ! The big disadvantage of this solution is pain  during administration drops . I thought that I will make 100 % solution from ethanol in concentration of 1 mg - 2ml and I will spill him on any powder , creatine or something but I dont like this ROA because is very high probability that substance will find outside creatine ( These are very tiny crystals so its very possible ) So  how do it ? How u prepare solution to IM or IV of ROA? 
Maybe should I use other solvent?


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## .tOobi.

@psykap
i have no experience with 25I-NBOMe.

but maybe you can make a 100% alc. solution, measure out, then put it in more solution like 2ml water, and plug it?

i dont know about how it dissolves in 100% alc.


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## psykap

Yes u are right but in this case problem will be a large amount of water   . I wanted to use the least amount of solvent but if it is necessary I have no other choice


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## skillet

Are you sure it's the salt? It shouldn't be _that_ much different in solubility.


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## Solipsis

psykap, you provided a number of dosage ranges in a few NBOMe threads like 25T4 and a few others but I worry that if tolerance builds up more extremely with this class of psychedelics that you might be mentioning doses that would make it seem like the potency is not very high. That could be dangerous for people who start experimenting without NBOMe tolerance.

So my question is: have you recenty revisited an NBOMe compound that was one of those you started off with, to check how much the needed dose has changed? I'm interested to know.


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## psood0nym

^Good call. I remember lamenting this problem in the 25C-NBOMe thread. Extreme tolerance develops to redosing over just an hour or so, and I don't know how long it takes to go back down to near normal. I recall Erny saying something like a week or two (once, after establishing extreme tolerance to 25C first, I IM'd 3 or 4 mg over a couple hours just to see how strong the tolerance is, and barely felt an uptick in the effects from my initial couple of doses despite the massive redoses). So for each NBOME, you need to titrate up your dose, and start over with reset tolerance for every increase. Assuming you had all the free time in the world, you might expect to take almost a month for each NBOMe to properly establish dosages (probably much longer for most of us). Not to mention there's the issue of getting consistent dose measurements with compounds active in the sub-milligram range just using a milligram scale and liquid measurement, especially considering you need to make a different liquid solution for each new NBOMe compound.


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## shishigami

skillet said:


> Are you sure it's the salt? It shouldn't be _that_ much different in solubility.



Err? I disagree. Think of DPT freebase which is not at all soluble in water and DPT HCl which is very soluble. Do you have any evidence to support that claim?


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## skillet

I mean the solubility of the HCl salt of 25I- shouldn't be that much different to that of the HCl salt of 25C-. If it's so insoluble maybe it's the freebase?

Sorry if I said it badly before.


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## shishigami

skillet said:


> I mean the solubility of the HCl salt of 25I- shouldn't be that much different to that of the HCl salt of 25C-. If it's so insoluble maybe it's the freebase?
> 
> Sorry if I said it badly before.



Ah sorry, that was probably my thought, I just saw that and was like woah what's that mean. 

I hope to have a smidgeon of this coming soon and am eager to try it with the liquid insufflation method.


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## psykap

Solipsis I am making a 2-3 week interval between next trip on NBOMes so dont worry about excessive doses  Of course people more sensitive should reduce doses .
By the way I noticed that the tolerance for 25D-NBOMe remains the shortest of all the family (similar like other phenethylamines )
As someone wrote. tolerance grows rapidly 

 Yes this 25I is HCL very tiny crystal .
100 mg looks like 25 mg 25C .
 25C is very good soluble in ethanol ,much worse in the water , but with this stuff is much worse.
Maybe should I use acetone ?


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## greenmeanies

as others have suggested, try adding a drop of acetic acid (white vinegar) to your water and see what happens. at least one other poster has reported that his 25I must be freebase, so yours might be freebase as well. freebase compounds do not dissolve in water unless you add acid to form the salt form!


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## psykap

If it were freebase should be inactive intranasally but it wasnt .
I felt  light - medium effects but I dont know how dose  I took because solution was not saturated but I think that it can be approx 500 mcg .Most white precipitate was at the bottom of the bottle
Probably whole 25I in EU/US/CA is coming from one source .
From what I know freebase isnt available from any vendor.
On MSDS is written that is HCL . Ok I will try to add acetic acid and We'll see what comes up


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## allium

> If it were freebase should be inactive intranasally but it wasnt .


Are there any reasons to believe that specifically 25I-NBOMe freebase is inactive? 
I'm asking this, because people snort 5-MeO-DMT fb with great success.


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## reformer

I'm a bit puzzled why there seems to be so much difficulty getting 25I into aqueous solution, given that the material in question is the HCl salt and not the freebase.

I pulled this from another thread (25C), but it has relevance here due to the apparent difficulties in producing a solution of 25I.



reformer said:


> The poster uses ~8.5 mg/ml for many NBOMe now and has no problems "solving" HCl salts of the 25C, 25D, or 25E at this concentration. 25E (the least soluble in water) takes a bit of uniform agitation (i.e. vortexing) over a few minutes to go into solution, but reasonable room temperature and no heat is required or should be applied.
> 
> That info does not recommend going higher concentration than 8.5 mg/ml for 25E, but guesses that 25C will be soluble up to 9-10 mg/ml (no guarantees).



It's just hard to imagine that the "I" iodine moiety could be more hydrophobic and difficult to solubilize than 25E's ethyl group was. I imagine that 25I should go into solution at least to ~6-8 mg/ml, based on the solubilities of 25C, 25D and 25E. I could be way off base here, but I don't think so.

What level of concentration are people trying to achieve? Are you guys trying like 6-8 mg/ml or are you trying much higher concentrations? 

BTW- There is a huge difference between vortexing in a small conical tube and simply shaking to mix in any old container.


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## Addam

I was only trying to get 1mg/mL. Did not go without lowering the pH. It's got me stumped as well.


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## skillet

Reformer and Allium - yeah exactly. Addam, if it dissolved when the pH was lowered then it probably is the freebase. How easily does it melt? I'd expect the freebase to melt in boiling water (I don't know that the melting point is below 100 degrees, but it seems likely and would be an easy test) while the HCl salt melts just below 170 degrees C.


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## Xtc <3

Looking at getting some of this shortly, will have to do alot more research once it arrives in order to dose it correctly.

Question though, im reading about the rapid tolerance acquired to this stuff that seems to last a week or two, does that cause cross tolerance to other psychedelics?

Like for example if you were to start off banging heroin before trying other opiates then you would never get to experience the pleasures of a milder opiod like codeine.

Could this create a similar scenario in which it could ruin the effects of some of the 'milder' psychedelics that dont cause tolerance to build so rapidly.

If it does then I might just keep this one in the collection for a while.

Cheers


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## Addam

I think it's reasonable to assume some sort of psychedelic cross-tolerence will occur. _However_ I don't think it is akin to heroin 'ruining' milder opioids. This tolerance will not be permanent. Just give it a break in between substances.
I just used 5-MeO-DALT this weekend (which is pretty much the codeine of psychedelics  ) and was still able to enjoy it for what it was even though I used 25I several weeks ago.


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## blowjay

Any administration, dosage reports, or trip reports available?


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## Ralt

Addam said:


> This will be a brief write-up
> 650 mcg of 25I-NBOMe was administered by IM injection in the deltoid.
> Contrary to earlier reports about a long come-up even with IM, I was at a ++ in 2 minutes and achieved +++ in ~5 minutes. It continued to increase in intensity for ~20 minutes at which point it leveled off. Visuals were extremely detailed, but vision had a slight blurry quality to it. Each object in the room, despite not having a terribly different appearance, was surrounded by what I can only describe as a very textured aura, with a seeming vibrating/pulsating character to it.
> CEVs were fantastic; I would find myself in a 3 dimensional space with spires rising, changing and coming together in the center. I also experienced some lovely visions of people (not people I knew) and some of erotic character.
> Thought process was not as deep as 25D-NBOMe, but it may have been the situation that day, as I didn't exactly dedicate a lot of time to thinking about things as I normally do and wasn't in seclusion as I normally prefer for these experiences   . I was able to function pretty well with others and ended up venturing outside towards the end of the experience.
> While walking outside I noticed a nice feeling, not of euphoria but just of genuine contentment and satisfaction with who I was and how I have been living my life. I felt very fortunate.
> There wasn't really much for negative effects. A slight tremor or shakiness was encountered at a couple points, but it wasn't bothersome and passed quickly. No negative body-load or nausea at any point.
> After a 2 hour plateau, effects began to gradually decrease, visuals were only faint at 4 hours and by 5 hours I felt comfortable enough to drive for some tobacco. There was a lingering humor for the rest of the day, things just seemed good-natured and funny to me.
> It seems there must be a subtle stimulation because after the experience had subsided I set to work detailing my home, which is something I definitely would not do under normal circumstances, lol. But certainly not an overt stimulation.
> I enjoyed this substance and I could see it being a regular on my calender, although next time I will raise the dosage to perhaps 750mcg.
> Perhaps another experience with a higher dosage and an environment more conducive to reflection will allow this substance to show more of the depth that it hinted at.



This excites me a lot to acquire 25I, especially with such a positive report with IM dosing, I've fallen in love with this ROA since finding MXE and after I experiment with 25I I can't wait to combine both in an I.M. shot.


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## Na'vi

Got a sample of this on the way. Does anyone have any sort of time frame for effects from insufflated doses? Was thinking 500mcg to start with.


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## tregar

Weight: approximately 200lbs, dosage: 350ug. It felt similar to around 100ug of acid, prefer all my acid trips to be around 175ug, so next time will use around 450 to 500ug of HPBCD-complexed 25i-nbome via the same upper gum buccal route. Have previous experience (years ago) with HPBCD-complexed testosterone, and also used various cyclodextrin-based pro-hormones such as Ergopharm's patented "cyclo-diol" (creator elite chemist Patrick Arnold), highly effective. These were widely available before the Pro-hormone ban which took place during Bush years. Testosterone & pro-hormones are all hydrophobic (water-fearing) drugs like 25i-nbome.

Several weeks earlier, 100mg of 25i-nbome had been added to 100ml of 95% etoh (drinkable alcohol) and also added 1000mg (1g) of HPBCD (hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin) powder as well, allowed it all to magnetically stir for 24 hours, even though 8 hours would have been fine. Stored away in freezer. I would recommend to future researchers to simply add 100mg of 25i-nbome to 50ml of 95% etoh (instead of 100ml of 95% etoh) for a final drug ratio of 200ug per each 0.100ml on the insulin syringe. If so desired, 1000mg of HPBCD could be added as well, then stir it all for around 8 hours, though I let it stir for 24 hours.

Tried an entirely brand new *BUCCAL experiment.* Most successful ROA to date. I would venture to say that HPBCD-complexed 25i-nbome does indeed achieve 95% absorption when left on the upper buccal gum surface in 20 minutes.

Got fed up with nas*cort spray bottles breaking after only a couple experiments, not being able to get all the solution out via spray pumps, the etoh nasal burn, etc, etc.

1) a blotter was prepared from a 2" long x 3/8" wide piece of #103 filter paper was cut from a #103 filter disc.

3) Approximately 5 mg of HPBCD (hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin) powder was put on the edge of a card and lightly "sprinkled" back and forth onto the 2" long filter paper blotter that was held suspended horizontally by a clothespin.

4) then 0.350ml of the etoh solution (350ug of drug) was sucked up via insulin syringe and deposited back and forth on top the cyclodextrin powder that adhered to the 2" long filter paper blotter, it was then allowed to dry for 15 minutes as described below.

5) Then placed the "sticky/glossy" blotter in front of a Holmes ac powdered fan heater and the strip was completely dry (except for the sticky HPBCD clear resin on the surface) in 15 minutes.

7) Placed on upper gum (like you would similar to a crest whitening strip) and did not taste hardly any etoh whatsoever, there was 0% burn, indicating that nearly all of the etoh did indeed evaporate leaving only sticky sugary HPBCD complexed drug on the blotter (as would be expected).

If HPBCD does indeed cause 95% sublingual absorption of hydrophic drugs in 20 minutes (pitha, joseph. study on HPBCD complexed testosterone) then I should feel the 350ug of drug quite well.

I have read many reports of HPBCD powder in the past working simply by overlaying the drug & a bit of water over the powder and allowing it to "sit and complex" over a course of less than an hour (old bodybuilding forums). In this case, I overlayed the etoh dissolved drug solution onto the cyclodextrin powder which simply laid on top the filter blotter paper.

---------

it worked.

6:20 applied buccal strip.
7:50 it hit with full force, full effects felt.

This is my best experience (and best ROA, route of administration) with this molecule to date, tripped much harder than last time (the nasal experiment)..

Have noticed with the iodo-molecule, it takes 1.5 hour for it to hit full-force, that is when it starts working very well. pupils larger at 1.5 hours, the HPBCD-complexed 350ug of etoh dissolved drug applied buccaly for 20 minutes works excellent. Felt the deep shining empathogenic qualities of the 25i-nbome for the entire trip, making it quite magical. This along with the normal visual, audial, mental effects. Music sounded amazing as well.

Tripped way harder than last time due to lowered tolerance. Will never go back to the nasal method, the HPBCD-complexed molecule bucally applied works with the same potency as nasal. FYI: Have seen hydroxy-propyl beta cyclodextrin powder still available on auction sites now and then, but other than that it is hard to find.

The Joseph Pitha study showed that when testosterone was complexed with hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin, that 95% absorption was achieved in 20 minutes via the sublingual route, whereas normally hydrophobic testosterone is absorbed less than around 40% normally via sublingual route.

How HPBCD (hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin) works to significantly improve buccal/sublingual
absorption:

http://www.pharmainfo.net/reviews/cy...systems-update

http://www.aapspharmscitech.org/view.asp?art=pt060243

Think of it as like a "molecular condom" that fits the drug so that it can be delivered across sublingual/buccal membranes with significantly improved efficiency.

Out of all the RC's to make it down the pipeline over the many years, this one is a shining star. It would be nice to perhaps add some 5-ht1a agonism in the future, but that could be done with possible low-dose combination of 4-ho-mipt for example, as that compound is mind-manifesting, deep intellectually. Other than that, 25i has all the other fine attributes of lucy, including the deep empathogenic qualities for the entire duration of the experience, increased music appreciation, etc.

There are actually a couple places (outside of auction sites ) that directly have Hydroxypropyl Beta Cyclodextrin. In any case, there are hundreds of research papers on the science of HPBCD, "Trappsol" and other fancy sounding brand names are currently used for the stuff these days it seems.


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## blowjay

Glad you posted that, I was very excited to see that when it was originally posted on Drug Forums. I wish more would come in though.


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## tregar

Thanks Blowjay. 

Had a fantasy dream, will recite it below:

Today prepared a HPBCD-complexed 2" x 3/8" wide blotter with 500ug of 25i-nbome, I sprinkled a thin layer of HPBCD on the blotter before applying the etoh dissolved drops of drug. allowed it to dry for 1/2 hour with a fan heater placed in front of it, the blotter suspended horizontally by two clothespins then placed on upper gum for 30 minutes, then removed.

I felt it kick in 1.5 hour later (the iodo takes a very long time to set in), by 2.5 hours, I was fulling full peak effects.

I am completely blown away by this dose, this higher dose is soooo much more to my liking, it feels equipotent to 150ug of acid or so....

I just had acid not but 2 days ago (once again) but promise to give a full 4 weeks before I take another psychedelic again.

I am experiencing an incredible empathogenic headspace with maginficient euphoria, I am enjoying this trip even more than my 175ug acid trip 2 days ago.

I am so in love with this molecule. I am getting visual activity very similar to that of acid trip, staring into an image on computer monitor, colors and patterns of the image begin to morph and almost change into other things, there are shadows everywhere, and afterimages everywhere. I am enraptured by the power and beautiful headspace of this substance. Watching movies I am sooooo into the characters and plot and visuals, I'm even in a better empathogenic headspace then even the acid trip days ago, way far ahead of it in fact...the euphoria is absolutely delightful as well. This a deep and meaningful molecule. The tracers are quite strong and looking into a mirror is an experience. I see patterns on actors and actress foreheads when watching them on TV, the headspace is deep and meaningful and incredibly empathogenic, the "human-ness" of this molecule is identical to the "human-ness" imparted by acid, strong glowing empathogenic quality with a great sense of humor. Every now and then I see "bursts of visual electric energy" shoot through the air, everything seems alive with electric energy...the visuals are just as powerful as those of acid, there is alot of visual stuff going on, I love the visual activity alot. Looking at a poster I see patterns on all of the skin of the actress, colors jump out and energy is everywhere. Music sounds glorious and has deep emotional impact. I saw intense strobe light flashes of pure energy and light go off in front of my visual field during the middle of the trip, I had never seen anything like that before on acid. I may even prefer this stuff to acid (in fact, I think I do), I place it ahead of acid in many respects. There is indescribable beauty all around me. This is a real Gem, just like Erny saids. Love, love, love this stuff.

I can't believe I am tripping this hard after having taken approximately 175ug of acid not but two days ago, how is this possible, perhaps it is the extrememly high affinity of this nbome molecule for the 5-HT2A receptor as compared to acid???

Well, whatever the case or mechanism, I am enraptured and place this experience among the best I have EVER experienced on psychedelics or empathogens.

p.s still no body load and absolutely no nausea at this higher dose, I will never go below this dose again, 500ug is where the magic happens! If I could cross acid with ecstasy, this is exactly what I would imagine it to be, the best of both worlds without the fatigue of ecstasy the next day. 

This is no doubt my favorite psychedelic.

CEV's consisted of bright colorful fractals, which later progressed to see scenes of humans going about business, also saw women, some of erotic character, one of my favorite cev's was of a woman (face un-seen) with the most beautiful legs crossed wearing a short black miniskirt, later on saw clips of movie-like scenes, some of the visuals morphed and changed so fast in the beginning that I could not make them out completely, it wasn't until after I achieved a more meditative state that the visuals slowed down and advanced.


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## tregar

In a dream, 500ug of HPBCD-complexed 25i-nbome was given to female subject. Subject in the past was unable to take mescaline due to it causing heavy nausea in stomach for duration of trip. Subject applied 1.75" long x 5/16" filter paper blotter to upper gum and left on gum for 30 minutes, then removed. Subject tripped intensely for entire duration of trip. Subject remarked "enjoyed trip immensely". Subject had absolutely no nausea, no gastrointenstinal distress, no side effects. Subject had intense visuals, laughed hysterically for hours at funny situations on movies and TV, enjoyed music immensely. Subject replied material felt like a cross of acid and md**, had strong empathogenic mental effects and euphoria, subject also remarked the headspace felt much like that of acid as well. Subject also said trip was therapeutic and resolved some problems. Subject rated experience as 10 out of 10 and also commented that it was "very fun" and visuals were intense & some of the best visuals she has ever experienced before.

How prepared: A 1.75" long x 5/16" filter paper blotter (cut from a #103 filter paper disc) was suspended between two clothespins horizontally, and approximately 5 to 10mg of HPBCD powder was sprinkled on the surface of the paper, then the 1/2ml of 95% etoh dissolved pre-complexed drug was dropped back and forth over the entire surface of the powder on the paper from left to right, then right to left back and forth, allowed to dry for about 5 minutes with the fan heater blowing on it, then after most of the 95% etoh had evaporated, again more solution applied back and forth, all done with insulin syringe, the needle released the drops of fluid over the powder on paper, this was repeated over and over until all fluid exhausted. After all solution was applied, paper was allowed to dry in front of a heater fan on high setting for 45 minutes. Paper was 100% completely dry after 45 minutes and ready for application. Subject remarked after about 1/2 hour of the paper strip sitting on upper gum that a very faint "numbing sensation" could be felt on tongue and on different areas of gum and mouth surfaces, this is caused by the nbome apparently, as swim also remembers feeling the same faint numbing sensation in mouth as well in past and has read of others feeling the same after some time. Saliva was held in mouth only for the 1st 15 minutes, then swallowed, there was not huge amounts of saliva since the blotter was placed on upper gum.


----------



## blowjay

Have you experimented with different amounts of HPBCD? I am curious as to how you decided to settle on the amount you used. I would expect that a 1 to 1 molar equivalency would work fine as (by my limited understanding) HPBCD just holds the guest molecule inside of it. 

I would love to hear more about HPBCD and if you think other cyclodextrins would also work. I am completely intrigued by HPBCD and all of its applications.


----------



## tregar

I stuck with using 9 times the amount of HPBCD to drug molecule while spinning them together (ie 900mg of HPBCD to 100mg of 25i-nbome) based on all the recommendations from cyclodextrin suppliers and past postings in the bodybuilding forums. I also had HPBCD complexed testosterone base back in the day (many many years ago), and it did work as advertised sublingually. I then added additional (5 to 10mg) of HPBCD to the blotter as a "double whammy" approach to make absolutely sure it absolutely complexed although this was probably un-necessary, but I did this based on the fact that some of the etoh may have competed for entrance to the cyclodextrin cavity while spinning with the drug based on the polar/nopolar properties of the etoh, but I wanted to use 95% etoh for storage of the molecule in solution in freezer because it evaporates from blotter so well when applied, and ease of storage (doesn't freeze as water would have). But other than that, have not experimented with various amounts of HPBCD, no.

The 500ug dose of 25i-nbome completely sent me on an intense trip with power visual, empathy, and acid-like headspace & great humor...was quite strong, so I'm completely satisfied with the buccal hpbcd-route, found to be equipotent to nasally applied same non-complexed amount. 

I got tired of messing with nasal application because the spray bottles would keep breaking, it was difficult to evaporate off just the proper amount of etoh before adding water back in for nasal spray, it was just overall a pain in the butt, not to mention having girl subject try the stuff, nasal was not appealing to her, ROA with the HPBCD-complexed drug buccal strip was just as strong for her as it was for me., so we are happy as clams with the new buccal complexed route.

Keep in mind that it takes 1.5 hour with the heavier iodo (the most potent of the halogens however) to hit you (1.5 hour after you apply the blotter to upper gum), then you peak 1/2 hour to 1 hour later or so. This is with the buccal route. There is little saliva made by placing the strip on upper gum and it sits easily/practically invisible and is not in the least bit uncomfortable.

If you are interested in reading more on HPBCD, I quoted from 3 articles in one of my posts in the big and dandy 25c-nbome thread, good info from Dazed and others, blast from the past.

Testosterone is extremely hydrophobic with a solubility in water of something like 0.039mg per ml, practically in-soluble, however, when complexed to HPBCD, it becomes 100% water soluble. Guess what else is very hydrophobic (water-fearing)?, yes, that's right the nbome's, especially 25i-nbome. HPBCD can be thought of as like a "molecular condomn" that traps drug molecules in it's donut-shaped hole so that they can be delivered directly to surfaces of the mucosal cavities in the mouth with high effectiveness. 

Dazed (bodybuilding expert on the use of HPBCD complexed hormones):


> The conventional penetration enhancers like alcohols or polyethylene glycol act by disrupting the lipid layers of membranes.(3) That is a big source of irritation from the old formula, and this irritation can thus be avoided by the use of CD’s (cyclodextrins). Another advantage is, once administered, the steroid is rapidly absorbed sublingually. Nearly 95% of the steroid will be absorbed within 20 minutes. This also causes the need for multiple doses throughout the day.





> 1. Water
> 
> HPBCD is very soluble in water. Substitution of the hydroxyl groups of the BCD disrupts the network of hydrogen bonding around the rim of the BCD. As a result of disruption of the hydrogen-bonding network, the hydroxyl groups interact much more strongly with water resulting in increased solubility compared to BCD. Solubilities of HPBCD are typically listed at >60% at amnbient temperature. As the concentraion becomes higher, viscosity begins to increase and solubility determinations become difficult to perform due to slow filtration rates and at very high solids levels, slow dissolution because of high viscosities making mixing difficult.
> 
> Solvents
> 
> HPBCD is more soluble in solvents than BCD, but extensive work has not been done to characterize the solubility of HPBCD in solvents. The table below shows the solubility in selected alcohols.
> 
> Solubility (g/100ml)
> 
> 95% ethanol 225g/100ml
> isopropanol 152g/100ml
> 
> solubility of HPBCD in ethanol-water mixtures:
> 
> 0% ethanol concentration: 360g/100ml
> 20% ethanol concentration: 340g/100ml
> 40% ethanol concentration: 320g/100ml
> 60% ethanol concentration: 295g/100ml
> 80% ethanol concentration: 265g/100ml
> 95% ethanol concentration: 225g/100ml


In any case, there are hundreds of research papers on the science of HPBCD, "Trappsol" and other fancy sounding brand names are currently used for the stuff these days it seems. Research elite chemist "Patrick Arnold" and his past company "Ergopharm" and his patented products "cyclodiol" etc. for even more info. There are many different methods you can use to complex, so explore and experiment to your heart's desire. The best thing about HPBCD is that when complexed to 25i-nbome, it makes the drug completely water soluble, imagine the possibilites, you can create very potent HPBCD-based nasal sprays, buccal blotter piece, etc.


----------



## tregar

Erny's posts were the inspiration for me getting interested in 25i-nbome in dreams, and I agree, his analysis was totally correct and descriptive. I pieced together fragments of his posts below to have them all together in one grouping.

Erny:


> NBOMe-2C-I was the first of them I have tried myself and the first one to appear on an illicit market here under the brand name "Solaris", late summer 2007. Currently this name refers to any NBOMe on a glycine tablet (a common cheap innocuous medicine for sublingual administration).
> 
> David's NBOMe-2C-I is a true gem. Basically it resembles PEAs, but is much like acid in some of it's effects, especially in the emotional area. It is full with the deep glowing LSD-like empathy that is uncommon within phenylethylamines.
> 
> The activity of bomamines in humans are sometimes inverted: NBOMe-2C-I requires 500-1000 mkg for a trip. When insufflated or injected i/m, they need a full hour to come up, even 1,5 hours in the case of NBOMe-2C-I.
> 
> NBOMe-2C-I seem a little like DOI and a little like LSD, NBOMe-2C-C seem a little like DOC and a little like DOI, NBOMe-2C-B - a little like DOB, NBOMe-2C-N seem a little like DON and a little like DMT if you wish to know that.
> 
> I do not get what is 2C-I and DOI nastiness you are talking about, I see those two as a remarkable visual experience and something that is easy on the mind (not paranoid, not frightening etc), but little else than that. One may also find there some good humour and an an opened, euphoric state of mind good for social tripping, reminiscent of empathogens or acid. This effect is barely noticeable in these two however, and not really reproducible, but is the one that shines to its full extent in NBOMe-2C-I and makes it very special.
> 
> NBOMe-2C-I is amasingly positive and is a clear empathogen in an LSD manner, i. e. somewhat deeper and feeling more natural than things like MDMA. An overflowing, exuberant joy, yet not as jittery as MDMA is. This state of mind is uncommon in PIHKAL phenylethylamines and is much closer to a good LSD trip.
> 
> NBOMe-2C-I has very few side effects past the come-up, the fact that made me to regard all of them as chemicals that are easy on the body at first, unfortunatly this is not true. there is no heavyness to pull you down and pin to a single place, the body feels weightless. Like the rest, it doesn't suppress appetite, probably due to it's low affinity to 5-HT2C receptor. Yet it is mildly vasoconstrictive and thus may give you a headache shortly after returning to baseline, just like PIHKAL.
> 
> It is, of course, visually rich, like it's relatives with iodine in PIHKAL. NBOMes have less distinctive visual patterns that would repeat in every trip like those in PEAs. Besides simple visual "noise" I rarely pay attention to and don't remember well, visuals there are generally more variable. There is one distinctive visual effect, however - caleidoscopic images, like in a real caleidoscope, or, with a higher dose, true fractals, i. e. structures with self-similarity and not just any geometrical visual mesh. Those are present in NBOMe-2C-I as well, of course, and make this similarity with acid even greater.
> 
> If we are talking about 2C-I-NBOMe in regular doses, there is no anxiety at all and the overall discomfort is moderate to weak. Mushrooms are much more anxious during the come-up than 2C-I, even plain 2C-B is more anxious. Unless 2C-I is taken in a huge dose. 60 mg may make you anxious. Same is true for NBOMe-2C-I, or any other psychedelic, and taking into consideration it is much more potent not only in terms of dosage, you may guess now what was the real source of that anxiety.
> 
> I've heard such complaints about 2C-I, as well, as it's being a sort of "psychedelic speed", etc, but never heard anything like that about NBOMe-2C-I. The frequency of the appearance of negative reactions to this chemical seems to be much lower than that of any other well explored NBOMe molecule (those are B, C and N), and lower than with most of the DOX.
> 
> After-effects I was talking about are not real after-effects, it's just the chemical that haven't left the body completely. I was actually still tripping. With a regular dose you will feel almost normal yet not completely at the baseline during this time, and most probably will be able to sleep.
> 
> Question "Did you find this substance to be similar to 2C-I qualitatively?"
> 
> Somewhat. But more so to DOI in regard its CEV/OEV and LSD - in mindset.
> 
> Doses above one-two milligram(s) have produced ...some usual phenomena of an overdose mostly similar with that of any other psychedelic drug.
> 
> Doses of more than three milligrams may produce seizures and doses of less than ten milligrams may be fatal. Reality is a little more complicated of course. One of the reports on worryfying overdoses I was able to find was about a man who took 1 mg of NBOMe-2C-I by insufflation. He literally fell as if shot five minutes later, lost consciousness and had seisures.
> 
> But I also had a memorable overdose if we are talking on that subject now. At the beginning of it all in 2007 I couldn't killed myself with 30 milligrams (this isn't a typo and was accurately weighed) of NBOMe-2C-B i/m, when accidentally mislabeled packages. I was able to return to this plane of reality unharmed, without any lasting consequences of this misfortune to speak about. There were several lethal doses in it - if we are to estimate them the proposed way. Nevertheless, I am alive and feeling fine, and I can't do anything about this fact. What's worse, I am not at all unique in being so tough. There is a number of reports about similar accidents found at several russian thematic web-resourses. Their story is always the same: someone accidentially overdoses with 5-10 mgs of NBOMe-2C-C/B/I, and after suffering extreme DMT-like trip gets off with only a scare. People like me or these others who won't die from what was called a "lethal" dose in the citation aren't a rarity, it looks more like this is a norm (or one of several norms to be more precise). For us who are the toughest ones in this regard, NBOMe molecules are nearly as safe as the least toxic structures among 2C-X PEAs (that seem to be the safest psychedelic phenylethylamines I am aware of).
> 
> This shouldn't serve as a cause for optimism towards phentanyl-like structures we are talking about here. There are also people, who are also quite numerous, for whom their safety margin appears to be closer to that of DOX. For them a suicide by means of 20x-30x NBOMe-2C-X overdose isn't necessarily impossible. And there are also individuals, not as numerous (but it makes no difference; that they exist is just enough), who will find NBOMe-2C-X to have the safety closer to that of benzodifurans like bromo-dragonfly (it would probably be better to say they have no safety reserve at all). These latter individuals will be the first to get into dangerous or even lethal accidents, if we are to see such in the near future.
> 
> While there is no way to find out beforehand who is who, or what may happen if somebody will take one of these chems.


A true Gem indeed. It helped me break a powerful addiction as well....it seems to go straight for the therapeutic more-so than some other psychedelics I've tried. Even helped me break an addiction. The feeling the next day is one of total refreshness and clarity. as well, very powerful therapeutically.


----------



## tregar

Just as I suspected.....this is an important study (below) from the cyclodextrin mega-expert Dr. Joseph Pitha:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0378517392902816

hxxp://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0378517392902816

"Effects of ethanol on formation of inclusion complexes of hydroxypropylcyclodextrins with testosterone or with methyl orange"

by Josef Pitha and Teruhiko Hoshinoa


> aNational Institutes of Health, National Institute on Aging/GRC, Baltimore, MD 21224 U.S.A.
> Received 21 June 1991;
> revised 9 October 1991;
> accepted 25 October 1991.
> Available online 4 November 2002.
> 
> Abstract
> 
> Gradual additions of ethanol decreased and eventually abolished the formation of inclusion complexes of testosterone with hydroxypropylcyclodextrins in aqueous solutions. With hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin this occured through two mechanisms. At low concentrations of ethanol (less than 30 percent), the solvent primarily acted as a competing guest compound; at higher concentrations the dissociation primarily occurred through non-specific solvent effects. With hydroxypropyl-γ-cyclodextrin only the dissociation through nonspecific solvent effects was observed. Surprisingly, when ethanolic solutions containing fully dissociated complexes were evaporated, the solid residues had properties characteristic of complexed species, i.e., they showed the rapid and complete dissolution characteristic of complexes prepared by freeze drying of aqueous solutions. That inclusion complexes were formed during the final stages of evaporation of ethanolic solution of components was confirmed by measurements of circular dichroic spectra of a methyl orange: hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin combination. In this combination the spectra of included species were highly characteristic and were recorded both in aqueous solutions and in solid state after the evaporation of ethanolic solutions but not in concentrated ethanolic solutions.
> 
> Keywords: Cyclodextrin; Hydroxypropylcyclodextrin; Inclusion complexation; Solvent effect; Testosterone



I had read similar reports in the past of ethanolic solutions competing for entrance to the cyclodextrin cavity (along with the drug) due to the non-polar inner cavity of the cyclodextrin (CD)...normally, with a water solution of CD, the inner liphophilic cavity of the CD attracts hydrophobic molecules (such as testosterone or 25i-nbome)...the CD works by making "caging" or "trapping" these hydrophobic drugs inside them, then due to the CD's outer cone properties, allows them to dissolve in water so that they can deliver the drug to the surface of the mucosal membranes, where the CD then detaches but then transfers the drug through the mucosal membranes.

Earlier you may have noticed that I dissolved 100mg of 25i-nbome in 50ml of 95% ethanol (drinkable alcohol), and also dissolved 900mg of HPBCD in 50ml of 95% ethanol, doing this on two seperate magnetic stirrers, after 8 hours, the 50ml of 95% ethanol solution with the dissolved 25i-nbome was transferred via long 12" pipette over the course of about 20minutes (slowly) to the spinning 50ml of 95% HPBCD solution, then after that, the one remaining combined solution was allowed to stir for 12 to 24 hours.

The solution was stored in a jar in freezer where it would keep indefinately. The advantage to this, is that the 95% etoh solution will not freeze, so there is no need to "dethaw" it like you would have to do had you dissolved the HPBCD and drug in a water solution. Another advantage is that the etoh evaporates fairly fast (after about 1 hour, the blotter paper is completely dry) when applied to filter paper blotter, so long as a fan heater is kept pointed at the paper for the duration of evaporation.

Keep in mind that I also sprinkled about 5 to 10mg of additional HPBCD powder on the 1.5" x 5/16" wide filter paper blotter to cover the surface of it before I dropped the drops onto it via insulin syringe needle tip. I did this for "added insurance" that the complex would form as the etoh fully evaporated from the paper in the final stages.

In the study above we see that due to the competition of ethanol for the inner cone of the CD, we will not get a complex of 25i-nbome to the HPBCD until after the drops of solubized drug are transferred to paper blotter, and then allowed 45 minutes to 1 hour for complete evaporation of etoh from the blotter, finally leaving a complex of HPBCD to drug on the paper, this occurs only after all the etoh has evaporated,

so in essence, I have been on the right path, as I always applied the blotter after all the etoh had evaporated, when the paper was completely dry, then I would apply to upper gum, and it worked fantastic.

So in other words, the way I have been complexing has been working due solely to the HPBCD complexing to the drug as the etoh evaporates from the blotter paper, causing a complete complex in the end.

"Surprisingly, when ethanolic solutions containing fully dissociated complexes were evaporated, the solid residues had properties characteristic of complexed species, i.e., they showed the rapid and complete dissolution characteristic of complexes prepared by freeze drying of aqueous solutions. That inclusion complexes were formed during the final stages of evaporation of ethanolic solution of components was confirmed by measurements of circular dichroic spectra of a methyl orange: hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin combination. In this combination the spectra of included species were highly characteristic and were recorded both in aqueous solutions and in solid state after the evaporation of ethanolic solutions but not in concentrated ethanolic solutions."

So you have a few choices when you complex HPBCD to 25i-nbome:

1. you can do it the way I did above, but remember that the HPBCD will not complex to the drug until the final stages of the ethanol has evaporated from the blotter, after the blotter is dried, then you will have HPBCD-complexed to 25i-nbome. 

2. you can dissolve HPBCD powder in distilled water, then drop in your 25i-nbome drug and allow it to spin 12 hours or so, then the HPBCD will easily be complexed to the drug in solution, then just drop the appropriate amount of water drops on blotter, allow it to dry, and it's ready. This could also be used nasally (as HPBCD improves nasal absorption as well), if you add this solution to an empty metered nasal pump (such as the nasa*ort spray pum), then each spray of the nasal pump will equal approximately 0.100ml. To sterilize this solution, suck it up in a 100ml plastic syringe, screw a 0.22 micron whatman filter to the end of the syringe, and push the contents using your thumb to press on the plunger until the solution gets pushed thru the filter into a pre-alcohol washed empty metered nasal bottle. Then add say 5% (exact figure not known) of 95% etoh to the nasal bottle solution as well, to keep it from growing bacteria.


> What are cyclodextrins?
> 
> Cyclodextrins are a form of linked carbohydrates. They're formed by an enzymatic synthesis that begins with starch. The enzymes, called transglycosidases, are derived from bacteria. What these enzymes do is couple the starch molecules together to form a truncated, conical, molecular structure with a hollow cavity inside.
> 
> The inside of this cyclodextrin "cone" is just about the perfect shape and volume to accommodate a steroid molecule. It's also a non-polar molecule, which means that it has some of the same properties as a fat or oil. The steroid molecule doesn't just sit inside the cone, it actually attaches to the inside of it. Also, it won't dissolve in water. However, while the inside of the cyclodextrin cone is non-polar, the outside is polar, which means that it will dissolve in water. What's the significance of all of this? When a steroid molecule and a cyclodextrin molecule hook up, they form a 1:1 complex. So, while the steroids themselves won't dissolve in water, a cyclodextrin/steroid complex will. The upshot is that steroid complexes become more absorbable through the oral mucosa.
> 
> A lot of clinical research has been published on the use of sublingual cyclodextrin complexes (SCCs) in humans. At the forefront of much of this research has been Josef Pitha of the US Department of Health and Human Services. Pitha has several patents on sublingual cyclodextrin complexes. He's also authored a journal article where he details the results of an SCC of testosterone on men. In a nutshell, Pitha found that an SCC containing 10mg of testosterone per tablet raised testosterone levels astronomically high (900% over baseline at one hour) and at two hours the levels were still elevated 485%. Compare that with another study that used regular testosterone at 20 times the dosage used in Pitha's study. Regular testosterone - not complexed with cyclodextrin - only raised testosterone around 500% at the peak.
> 
> Another study performed by Stuenkel et.al. showed that testosterone SCCs of 2.5 and 5.0mg raised testosterone levels in hypogonadal men 2341% and 4270% (absolute increases of 1765 ng/dL and 2406 ng/dL) respectively! It took an average of 20 to 30 minutes to achieve maximum blood testosterone levels, but even after eight hours post-dose, the testosterone levels were still elevated 126% for the 2.5mg dose and 195% for the 5.0mg dose. Interestingly enough, the peak levels for estradiol only increased 300% and 340% over baseline, respectively. Remarkable, considering that one usually sees estradiol levels increase proportionally with testosterone levels when other forms of administration are used (i.e. injectable esters and TU o



"Trappsol" and other fancy sounding names are used these days to name HPBCD/google the brand names, etc. to find probable outfits that have them.


----------



## metalfaith

Where could I find some HBPCD? I'm not aware of what these "auction sites" are.


----------



## AustinJ

This is awesome information, Tregar, thank you!  I was trying to more fully understand how the drug complex is formed, and found this (from an admittedly non-technical source, although it does cite sources):

_It is the interplay of atomic (Van der Waals), thermodynamic (hydrogen bonding), and solvent (hydrophobic) forces that accounts for the stable complexes that may be formed with chemical substances while in the apolar environment of the Cyclodextrin cavity. The complex exists in an equilibrium dependent upon the concentrations of the Cyclodextrin, the guest chemical and water. The rate at which the associated complex is formed is determined in large part by the accessibility of the guest molecule to the Cyclodextrin cavity and the magnitude of the net thermodynamic driving force.

Energetically favorable events make the thermodynamic contribution quite compelling:
**Return of hydrating water molecules to the larger pool
**Displacement of water from the hydrophobic Cyclodextrin cavity
**Removal of the hydrophobic guest molecule from the "hostile" aqueous environment
**Installation of the hydrophobic guest molecule into the apolar Cyclodextrin cavity._

This supports the idea that using distilled water to form the complex of 25I and HPBCD would be better than ethanol.  Not only would the ethanol be competing with the 25I for entry into the HPBCD cavity, but it also makes a more 'friendly home' for the 25I, making it 'less eager', energetically, to escape the hostile aqueous environment and enter the cozy HPBCD cavity.

I believe the fact that the complex exists as an equilibrium means that a simple 1:1 molar ratio of HPBCD to 25I is not necessarily enough.  The higher the relative concentration of HPBCD to 25I, the better chances of getting the 25I fully complexed.  I'll be very curious to see what the actual numbers will look like for this, whether the 900mg HPBCD to 100mg 25I that Tregar has been experimenting with is higher than necessary or just right or what.

Also from that page:

_Dissociation is usually an equally rapid process, most often caused by the sudden rapid increase in the number of water molecules outside the cavity. Even though there may be an initial energy barrier to dissociation, the concentration gradient created becomes overwhelming and the chemical is displaced. Unable to find relatively scarce Cyclodextrin molecules to reform the complex, the chemical exists free in solution or precipitates, depending on the amount of dilution and concentration of Cyclodextrin._

This seems to imply that using a smaller volume of water to create the complex will improve the rate/equilibrium.  Not too sure about this, though.

I find this all fascinating, and it's making me miss my chemistry classes in school!


----------



## hexagonsky

Thank you for sharing all of this complexing info. Very good stuff.
If someone wanted to complex an nBOME and suspend it in a liquid solution that could be used directly out of a dropper, what would be the best way to go about that? How concentrated could you get it and how would you keep it sterile without worry of the alcohol getting inside the dextrin rings and leaving the nBOME with out a sugary protector?


----------



## tregar

Thanks for the comments/kind words AustinJ and hexagonsky. Keep in mind that these are research chemicals and not approved at all for human use, strictly for research purposes only.

Theoretically....

Cyclodextrins only improve the buccal or sublingual or nasal/rectal absorption of hydrophobic (water repelling) molecules (such as testosterone or this RC), it gives no improvements in absorption to hydrophilic (very water soluble) drugs. Judging from the earlier posts in this thread, it appears that this particular iodo RC is very hydrophobic (has a very difficult time dissolving in water). It appears to be much more hydrophobic then the 25c version from the reading of posts. CD's (cyclodextrins) also impart a bit of extra penetration enhancement as well as increasing water solubility substantially. The cyclodextrin acts as a "shaparone" of sorts that shuttles the molecule to the saliva for quick entry to the mucosal membrane, where the drug then partitions into the deeper lipohilic membranes, while the cyclodextrin itself does not. If you add for example testosterone base powder to water, it will not dissolve at all, but merely float on top the water, but if you were to add the powder to a pre-dissolved solution of HPBCD and water, the powder would instantly dissolve, becoming water soluble. 

1. One method: a researcher could add 900mg of HPBCD to 50ml of 95% etoh (or similar alcohol like vodka), spin this for several hours to mix well, then slowly sprinkle in 100mg of RC over the course of about 5 minutes....allow this to spin a good 12 hours or more at medium speed on a magnetic stirrer, when done you would end up with a concentration of 200ug of 25i-nbome to each 0.100ml (1/10th of a milliliter). Only use a 1 ml insulin syringe or something even more exact (like a 3/10's insulin syringe). Use a tall graduated cylinder to measure out the 50ml of 95% etoh. This will be a dissasociated complex (non-complexed) but it will at least allow for storage in a freezer, etc for long periods of time, perhaps indefinately.  Then use an insulin syringe to draw up 0.200ml (2/10's of a milliliter) which is equal to 400ug of the rc and slowly apply the drops from the tip of the insulin syringe to a piece of filter paper blotter paper cut for buccal or sublingual. Place fan heater in front of filter paper to allow it to dry for at least 1 hour, the drug will be "fully complexed" to the HPBCD on the paper (in this case you would have 400ug of the drug complexed to 3.6mg of HPBCD as a solid residue on the paper). Then and only then it is considered "complexed" when absolutely dry, when the last of the etoh has fully evaporated. It's a good idea to always use about x9 times (9:1) the amount of HPBCD as drug, that is the standard formula, but it's ok to use up to even x20 times the amount of HPBCD to drug (20:1).

P.S. In hindsite, I really don't see the need to sprinkle on "an extra 5 to 10mg of HPBCD powder" to the filter paper piece first before adding the drops of solution. The added insurance of extra HPBCD probably doesn't contribute anything as far as effectiveness is concerned as there is allready plenty of HPBCD mixed in with the RC to begin with.

2. Second method: a researcher could add 900mg of HPBCD to 50ml of distilled water, allow this to mix for several hours, then slowly sprinkle in 100mg of RC over the course of 5 minutes, then allow this to stir for around 12 hours or more, then your solution is fully complexed "as is" still in solution, it can be dropped onto a piece of filter paper blotter and allowed to fully dry for several hours. Sterilization process is described above in case of nasal app.



> how would you keep it sterile without worry of the alcohol getting inside the dextrin rings and leaving the nBOME with out a sugary protector?


That's a good question, I don't know the answer to that. When etoh concentration is less than 30% of your solution, the etoh will indeed compete for entrace to the cavity. To keep your solution sterile you would probably need anywhere from 3% to 10% etoh, I don't know exactly how much you would need. Your best option in this case would be to expel the contents of the 0.22 micron filter into a pre-sterilized Vial with robber stopper allready crimped on it, attach an 18gauge needle to the end of the 0.22micron filter and poke the needle through the rubber stopper (rub with alcohol first) and expel the sterile contents into the pre-sterilized 100ml vial, it will stay sterile like this indefinately (no need to add any alcohol to it), however you would need to pull up the contents when needed with a clean sterile insulin syringe, then break off the tip of the needle, then depress the contents of syringe into nose for nasal absorption, etc. you get the general idea.

I really don't see the need for nasal application as sublingual (under the tonuge) or buccal (inbetween gum and cheek) offers tremendous horsepower as is imho. Just remember that the iodo applied buccally/sublingually takes a good 1.5 hours after application before anything is even felt, then it peaks about 1 to 2 hours later. It takes a long time, just be patient, it's well worth the wait in dreams. The "comeup" in other words starts at 1.5 hours after blotter applied, then the comeup will last approximately 2 hours, when peak effects are then felt, visuals/audial & mindtrip tend to increase at this point along with other enjoyable effects of the trip. With the buccal or sublingual ROA there is a longer time till the peak, but the effects of the trip are sustained for a longer duration.

Good Reading:
http://www.pharmainfo.net/reviews/cyclodextrins-drug-delivery-systems-update
hxxp://www.pharmainfo.net/reviews/cyclodextrins-drug-delivery-systems-update

http://www.aapspharmscitech.org/view.asp?art=pt060243
hxxp://www.aapspharmscitech.org/view.asp?art=pt060243


> HPBCD Basics
> 
> By David Tolson
> 
> Introduction
> 
> One of the primary issues concerning steroids and prohormones is that of optimal delivery. While most drugs and supplements are taken orally, there are a number of reasons why this method is largely ineffective with most prohormones. When taken orally, these compounds are extensively metabolized in the liver, making the dose used much larger than the amount that gets through. This may also place undue stress on the liver, especially with certain substances. Because of this, other delivery methods, such as transdermal, sublingual, and intranasal, have all become popularized, and each has advantages and disadvantages. This article discusses the compound hydroxypropyl-beta cyclodextrin (HPBCD), which can be used to facilitate prohormone delivery in a number of ways.
> 
> Cyclodextrins are a group of compounds that are commonly used in medicine to increase the aqueous solubility of drug substances by complexation [1]. Cyclodextrins are cyclic oligosaccarides, or sugars, which contain alpha-1,4 linked glucopyranose units (in the case of beta-cyclodextrins, seven of these units) in a truncated cone shape [2]. This results in a molecule that has an internal cavity that is hydrophobic and easily forms a complex with a steroid/prohormone molecule, while the outer surface of the cyclodextrin is hydrophilic, and this makes the complex easily dissolvable in water [2-4]. This renders prohormones much more bioavailable, and cyclodextrins are capable of enhancing nasal, sublingual, and transdermal delivery [5-6], among others. Moreover, cyclodextrins will cause much less irritation than other methods [3, 7].
> 
> The cyclodextrin of choice for prohormone delivery is HPBCD. When compared to other testosterone beta-cyclodextrin complexes, HPBCD was 1,533 percent more soluble in water, while another study found that HPBCD-steroid complexes were effective while beta-cyclodextrin-steroid complexes were not [4]. HPBCD also has an excellent safety profile.
> 
> Sublingual delivery
> 
> Sublingual delivery (administered under the tongue) presents an attractive alternative to traditional oral administration. Because of the limited surface area, the amount of prohormone that can be absorbed at one time appears to be 25 milligrams or less. However, when compared to oral delivery, even this amount is advantageous. One study found that a cyclodextrin complex containing 10 mg of testosterone delivered sublingually raised testosterone levels by 900% over baseline, with a 485% elevation at the two hour point. In contrast, even 200 mg of oral testosterone only raises levels by around 500% at the peak. A study comparing oral and cyclodextrin complexed 4-androstenediol also found that the sublingual version lead to a 261% greater increase in testosterone with one quarter of the dose, with the peak levels at 40 as opposed to 90 minutes. [4]
> 
> All in all, sublingual delivery is much more effective than oral for the amount used, but it does require more frequent dosing. Sublingual prohormones are usually taken 3-5 times daily.
> 
> Intranasal delivery
> 
> Intranasal delivery takes the trend of sublingual delivery even further. It is doubtful that more than 20 mg at a time will be absorbed using this method, and blood levels quickly spike 15 minutes after delivery and then dissipate to baseline by 90 minutes. Running a cycle using this method is impractical, as one has to dose up to 10 times daily. However, bioavailability is further increased – intranasal delivery has the highest bioavailability of all prohormone delivery methods, short of injection [7]. Additionally, intranasal delivery provides the most direct route to the brain [6, 7]. For these reasons, this method has become popular for pre-workout stimulant purposes. Many people report increased workout intensity from intranasal prohormones. DHT precursors are best suited to this purpose, although some other prohormones may make effective pre-workout stimulants as well.
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> HPBCD complexes can allow for a number of novel effective prohormone delivery methods. Each one has unique advantages and disadvantages. For further information, as well as information on creating your own cyclodextrin complexed prohormones, I recommend the following article:
> 
> Alternative Steroid Delivery Systems, by Dazed
> 
> If you have any questions or comments regarding this article
> 
> No part of this article may be reproduced in any form without the permission of David Tolson or Mike McCandless.
> 
> References
> 
> 1. Eur J Pharm Sci. 2003 Oct;20(2):197-200. Driving forces and the influence of the buffer composition on the complexation reaction between ibuprofen and HPCD. Perlovich GL, Skar M, Bauer-Brandl A.
> 
> 2. Int J Pharm. 2003 Sep 16;263(1-2):173-81. The effect of beta-cyclodextrins on the permeation of diclofenac from supersaturated solutions. Dias MM, Raghavan SL, Pellett MA, Hadgraft J.
> 
> 3. Mind and Muscle Magazine Issue #9. Alternative Steroid Delivery Systems by Dazed.
> 
> 4. Super Andro: Cyclodextrin Technology Shatters the Absorption Barrier by Patrick Arnold and David Garrett.
> 
> 5. Int J Pharm. 2003 Mar 6;253(1-2):1-11. Mechanistic studies of the effect of hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin on in vitro transdermal permeation of corticosterone through hairless mouse skin. Shaker DS, Ghanem AH, Li SK, Warner KS, Hashem FM, Higuchi WI.
> 
> 6. Int J Pharm. 2002 Oct 10;246(1-2):25-35. The effects of water-soluble cyclodextrins on the histological integrity of the rat nasal mucosa. Asai K, Morishita M, Katsuta H, Hosoda S, Shinomiya K, Noro M, Nagai T, Takayama K.
> 
> 7. The Scoop on Intranasal Prohormones by Patrick Arnold





> Dazed:
> 
> The best tool available to make nasal and sublingual steroids are derivatives of beta cyclodextrins. The one that is most readily available is hydroxypropyl-beta cyclodextrin (HPBCD). (Note: Plain beta-cyclodextrin is of little use) In case you have not heard of these, cyclodextrins are cyclic oligosaccarides (sugars) that have a hydrophilic outer surface and a hydrophobic inner surface.(3)
> 
> They can be thought of as a doughnut, with the center capable of having a steroid molecule stuck inside it. The hydrophilic outer surface makes the cyclodextrin soluble in water, and when it is combined with a steroid, it can make the poorly water soluble steroid soluble as well.(3)
> 
> In addition to making steroids soluble, cyclodextrins have very other important properties that make them ideal for our purpose. Cyclodextrins are known to enhance steroid delivery through biological membranes.(3) The large CDs themselves are very bad at permeating biological membranes, but they deliver the steroid to the membrane, where it partitions into the membrane, leaving the CD on the outside of the membrane.(3)
> 
> The conventional penetration enhancers like alcohols or polyethylene glycol act by disrupting the lipid layers of membranes.(3) That is a big source of irritation from the old formula, and this irritation can thus be avoided by the use of CD’s. Another advantage is, once administered, the steroid is rapidly absorbed. Nearly 95% of the steroid will be absorbed within 20 minutes. This also causes the need for multiple doses throughout the day.
> 
> Complexation:
> It seems that hardly anyone out there knows how to complex a steroid with a cyclodextrin. One procedure I saw on a different company’s steroid column was laughable. It was pretty obvious that whoever wrote that procedure knew very little about cyclodextrins. It is really fairly easy to do. There are multiple ways to do it, but I will tell you three methods to try, depending on what resources you have available. In all instances, you need a ratio of 9g of HPBCD to 1g of steroid. Complexation occurs because the steroid is more energetically stable inside the CD than outside of it. It is an equilibrium process, but the equilibrium lies much more on the side of complexation.(3) Water is essential for complexation to occur. It is removed from the inner cavity to allow for the steroid to enter, but even normal room humidity is sufficient for complexation if the mix is given sufficient time.(4)
> 
> Method1
> For the first method we will formulate it for a total of 2g of steroid.
> Dissolve 18g of HPBCD in 80ml saline in a beaker on a stir plate. Once this is dissolved, slowly add the 2g of steroid over about 5 minutes. Let this stir overnight. Filter out any insoluble particles. This provides a 25mg/ml solution.
> 
> Method 2
> For the second method, we will formulate it for 1g of steroid.
> Triturate (mix in a mortar with a pestle) 9g HPBCD with 1g steroid. Place this in a high humidity environment for 2-4 days. I have used a covered fish tank with water in the bottom, but anything that can create a humid environment will work. A syrup will form, and this is dissolved in 40ml saline and you have a 25mg/ml solution.
> 
> Method 3
> For the third method, we will formulate for 4g of steroid.
> Triturate 36g of HPBCD with 4g steroid. Let this sit at normal room temperature and humidity for a week. Complexation will occur, but takes time with this process Dissolve the powder in 160ml saline. This again makes a 25mg/ml solution.
> These solutions can be made stronger by adding less saline, but the closer you get to 50mg/ml, the thicker the solution becomes. At 75mg/ml, the solution is too viscous to do anything with.
> 
> Editors Note: I am assuming he is talking about mg of actual androgen, not mg of androgen/cyclodextrin complex, because cyclos will dissolve just fine at 300mg/ml, which I think is ample, anyway.
> If prohormones are used, you will probably want to filter the solution, since there are a lot of insoluble impurities in most of the prohormone powders out there.
> 
> Can I Inject?
> I performed a little experiment with 4-androstenediol and HPBCD. I complexed some 4-Adiol with HPBCD as in example 1. I evaporated off some water until there was a 50mg/ml solution. This was sterile filtered this into a sterile vial and injected. These were the most painfree injections I have ever had with 4-Androstenediol. The cool thing about this formula is that it can be shot subcutaneously or intermuscularly, since it cannot crystallize and dissipates quickly because it is so water-soluble. Although I never tried, multiple daily shots would be needed to impart any kind of muscle building effect, and although you will never be limping because of a painful muscular injection, it would just be too much of a hassle. Another reason not to do this is because most HPBCD available is not endotoxin free, so you could be setting yourself up for a nice fever or illness, or possibly a very bad reaction that could cause death. That is always a good reason to avoid something.
> 
> Intranasal and sublingual delivery systems can be very useful. Not only do they work well, but the needle phobic and the human pincushion now have a way to add more steroids to their body. Those who want to get a boost in blood levels before a workout are now free to do so. As an added benefit, I can’t say I have ever heard of someone having their nasal inhaler confiscated to be tested for anabolic steroids. Enjoy!
> Reference:


----------



## metalfaith

Anybody got any help for a noob? I am curious in beginning research with this RC, but without the HPBCD I can't do much.  
Thanks in advance. You guys are the best, i'm learning infinite from this thread alone.


----------



## JBrandon

Reasd the entire 25C thread and you'll learn an infinitely more infinite amount.


----------



## psykap

Could somebody tell me one thing ?    I made some  blotters with 25I-NBOMe . As has already been said they are absorb very weak . How do you think if I soak ready  blotters with 25I in HPBCD sollution cause it that they will be better absorbtion?


----------



## tregar

If you allready had some pre-soaked weak blotters, I suppose you could prepare a 50ml solution of 95% ethanol (or vodka), add 1000mg of HPBCD to the ethanol, allow it to stir for an hour, then drop about 1/4ml of the solution onto one piece of blotter, when all the etoh has evaporated from the blotter piece (say about 1 hour later), then and only then would the approximately 5mg of applied HPBCD have complexed to the drug. Alternately, you could sprinkle 5mg of HPBCD on the blotter piece, then drop 1/4 ml of 95% ethanol or vodka on the paper, allow it to dry for an hour, then it would most likely end up complexed to the drug as well.

As you can tell from reading the scientific study above, "Surprisingly" ethanolic solutions of HPBCD and hydrophobic drug form actual complete complexes during the final stages of etoh evaporation. It came as a "surprise" as it appears to work just as well as contemporary methods (ie the use of plain water, freeze drying, etc.).

Can I ask a question? Since I have never added the RC directly to water (only ethanol), what kinds of things do you observe when it is added to water? does it float on top or otherwise repel the water? Just how hydrophobic does it appear? There seem to be alot of problems with solubility into water from reading most of the earlier posts in this thread. If you are having to dissolve the stuff into alcoholic solutions (mixtures of alcohol and water) then this does absolutely mean the molecule is quite hydrophobic (which is good thing when you complex it to HPBCD, this is what you want).

Also, why is it that only Erny, Addam and myself have the only dream trip reports in this thread? Is the solubility causing this many problems in the past or is it just that it is hard to find/expensive, etc? What seems to be the problem? just curious. The 25c thread is 34 pages and this thread is not even off the ground, lol.


----------



## Devourer

I've been interested in this chem for quite some time, but the dose is what throws me off, I ordered an MG scale recently, but it's a cheapo and even when it gets here I feel as if it wont read the dosages I need.

I can prolly get away with doing the liquid solution, but I still feel as if I screw up I'm going to really jeopardize someone, or my own life.


Also the vendor I found this from sells it for the same price as the 2c's per gram,

I don't see how this is possible, I did the math and if you sold it you'd make ungodly amounts of money... 
but once again, I feel like you'd kill a few people in the process.


----------



## tregar

You would need to weigh and re-weigh it over and over to make sure it is within as close as can be gotten to for example 100mg, then absolutely must be added to liquid, as liquid measurement is the only way it can be accurately measured out, there is no way to ever (even with an expensive milligram scale) weigh out accurate 1mg amounts accurate to within 1mg, you would need a thousand dollar/pound scale bolted to a perfectly flat table with windscreen all around, etc. etc. Liquid measurement is the only option. A tall graduated 50ml or so cylinder is the best way to accurately measure out exactly 50ml of solvent. 

You might try to search for "trappsol" (a brand name given to hydroxypropyl beta cyclodextrin for research and investigative purposes only, not approved for human consumption). 

Interesting tidbit:


> How does Cyclodextrin Work for Feb*eze?
> Feb*eze is an odour-eliminating product with modified β Cyclodextrin as one of its main ingredients. When Feb*eze is sprayed onto fabrics, the some-what soluble malodour molecules are dissolved in water. This is an essential part of the deodorization process. As a second step, when the solution dries, more and more malodour molecules complex with Cyclodextrin and are effectively retained to keep their concentration in the air low. This total process (water dissolution + complexation) decreases the volatility of the malodour molecules and causes odour elimination. The chemical equilibria involved in the deodorization process are as follows:
> 1  solubilization of the volatile compound (G)
> 2. complexation with the Cyclodextrin (C)
> 3  precipitation of the complex as item dries.


My Feb*eze bottle saids ingredients: water, alcohol, odor eliminator derived from corn, fragrance. I sprayed some of this on my hands and on a table, it does not leave behind any sticky residue, whereas an extremely sticky residue is left behind when you leave a puddle of HPBCD and water on your hands or on the table, this leads me to believe that there may not be HPBCD in Febreze, but rather some other derivative of cyclodextrin, it's just not sticky, whereas my HPBCD and water or when mixed with etoh and allowed to evaporate leaves a VERY VERY STICKY residue behind. So folks, I'm sorry but it looks like Feb*eze is just not a substitute. The sticky residue eventually gives way (once all the solvent & water has evaporated) to a "glossy looking solid state" with no stickiness.

amanitadine said:


> There are. And there is one from Erny in the Trip Reports section here. Seems to be his fav N-Benzyl PEA....


Definately my favorite N-Benzyl PEA as well.  I notice that Erny also talks about the hydrophobicity of this molecule and it's ability to reach the brain in a quoted statement on page 1 of this thread. Hydrophobic = loves lipophilic like fat & oils, nonpolar environments but repels water (which is polar).


----------



## tregar

I had totally forgoten that the book "Psychedelic Information Theory" by James Kent has a chapter on "Psychedelic Receptor Binding". He saids that the substances that have the most Hallucinogenic potency have very high 5-HT2A affinity as well as 5-HT2C affinity...





> TABLE 1 from Kent's book
> 
> In this chart, a value of 4.00 indicates high affinity at that target; any value under 2.00 should be considered imperceptible. From Ray, 2010(3).
> 
> 5HT--
> 
> 2c-E = 1A (2.91), 1B (3.00), 1D (3.54), 1E (2.60), *2A (3.76)*, 2B (4.00), 2C [3.38], 5A (0.00), 6 (1.93), 7 (2.77), D1 (0.00)
> 
> 2C-B = 1A (2.75), 1B (3.11), 1D (3.71), 1E (3.05), *2A (3.69)*, 2B (4.00), 2C [3.18], 5A (0.00), 6 (2.63), 7 (2.81), D1 (0.00)
> 
> LSD = 1A (3.73), 1B (4.00), 1D (3.70), 1E (2.62), *2A (3.54)*, 2B (3.11), 2C (3.11), 5A (3.64), 6 (3.75), 7 (3.70), D1 (2.34)
> 
> DOI = 1A (0.00), 1B (2.31), 1D (3.00), 1E (2.66), *2A (3.44)*, 2B (3.13), 2C (4.00), 5A (0.00), 6 (2.34), 7 (1.90), D1 (1.67)
> 
> DMT = 1A (0.00), 1B (0.00), 1D (3.91), 1E [3.28], *2A [2.58]*, 2B (0.00), 2C (3.42), 5A (3.16), 6 (3.35), 7 (4.00), D1 (3.51)
> 
> psilocin = 1A [2.88], 1B (2.19), 1D (3.40), 1E (3.03), *2A (2.14)*, 2B (4.00), 2C (2.52), 5A (2.83), 6 (2.82), 7 (2.82), D1 (3.37)
> 
> 5meodmt = 1A (4.00), 1B (2.41), 1D [3.48], 1E (1.72), *2A [0.98]*, 2B (0.69), 2C (1.55), 5A (1.84), 6 (2.73), 7 (3.69), D1 [2.38]
> 
> DIPT = 1A (4.00), 1B (0.00), 1D (2.51), 1E (0.00), *2A (0.00)*, 2B [3.48], 2C (0.00), 5A (0.00), 6 (0.00), 7 (0.00), D1 (0.00)
> 
> mescaline = 1A (3.61), 1B (0.00), 1D (0.00), 1E (3.16), *2A (0.00)*, 2B (3.97), 2C (0.00), 5A (0.00), 6 (0.00), 7 (0.00), D1 (0.00)
> 
> MDMA = 1A (0.00), 1B (0.00), 1D (0.00), 1E (0.00), *2A (0.00)*, 2B (3.64), 2C (0.00), 5A (0.00), 6 (0.00), 7 (0.00), D1 (0.00)
> 
> Ray, TS: "Psychedelics and the Human Receptorome". PLoS One. 2010; 5(2): e9019.


25iNbome has 0.044 affinity for 5-HT2A (the highest ever recorded for a psychedelic, higher than acid even) and 2.0 affinity for 5-HT2C (much higher than acid), this may help explain the wild visuals that I experienced. 

In comparison, mescaline has no affinity for 5-HT2A or 5-HT2C, he saids this explains why it is largely considered a non-visual psychedelic, along with 5-meo-dmt, dipt, and mdma. To me, 25i-nbome is visually more spectacular than acid. I'll go ahead and paste his complete receptor chart table for all the popular psychedelics in just a bit.

From Nichol's paper:


> The ligand 25i-Nbome had low affinity for most receptors, with the following reported Ki values (nM) for receptors where it had significant affinity: (remember the lower the number, the greater the binding):
> 
> 5-HT2a (0.044)
> 5-HT2c (2)
> 5-HT6 (73, +/-12)
> 5-HT2B (231, +/-73)
> 
> u opiate (82, +/-14)
> H1 (189, +/-35)
> kappa opiate (288 +/-50)





> LSD:
> 
> 5-HT1A = 1.1
> 5-HT1B = 90
> 5-HT1D = 11
> 5-HT1E = 93
> 
> 5-HT2A = 3.5
> 5-HT2B = 25
> 5-HT2C = 23
> 
> 5-HT5A = 7
> 5-HT5B = 5
> 5-HT6 = 6
> 5-HT7 = 6
> 
> d1 = 27
> d2 = 6.4
> d3 = 261
> d4 = 230
> d5 =
> 
> adrenergic = 37
> histamine H1 = 1083
> 
> The significance of 5-HT5A, 5-HT6, and 5-HT7 receptors are unknown, but psychedelic tryptamines such as psilocin or DMT do have significant affinity for 5-HT1A receptors.



From "Psychedelic Information Theory" by James Kent:


> "Breadth of Psychedelic Receptor Binding
> 
> Table 1 lists the binding strength of popular psychedelic drugs at many 5-HT receptor sites, listed in order of 5-HT2A affinity.(3). This table should be an accurate representation of hallucinogenic potency of various psychedelics in descending order. From subjective reports all substances at the top of this list are very hallucinogenic, but DMT, which is often considered to be the most hallucinogenic, actually falls somewhere in the middle. If we also look at 5-HT2c affinity, which is implicated in hallucination, we can see that all substances at the top of the list also have high 5-HT2C affinity, with DMT and DOI having slightly higher affinity than the rest. 5-HT7 receptor affinity, which stimulates cAMP activity and the reward system, also seems to be implicated in overall transcendent psychedelic action, with the mystically popular DMT, 5-Meo-DMT, and LSD topping the affinity list for these receptors.
> 
> In contrast, there are four non-visual psychedelics at the bottom of the list, 5-Meo-DMT, DiPT, Mescaline, and MDMA. These substances have very poor 5-HT2A, 2C affinity, but all have a high 5-HT2B and adrenal affinity; this indicates they are effective at stimulating serotonin production, cardiovascular activity, and acute sensuality. 5-HT2B affinity is quite high for all samples in this list with the exception of DMT and 5-MeO-DMT, making 5-HT2B affinity a good indicator for purely sensual or entactogenic effects. It is interesting to note that DiPT, Mescaline, and 5-MeO-DMT all have a high 5-HT1A affinity, which is generally thought to work in contrast to 5-HT2A agonism to promote well-being and satisfaction. DiPT is unusual because it produces distinct audio hallucinationa and little or no visual hallucinations, and predictably does not bond with 5-HT2A, 2C receptors implicated in visual hallucination.
> 
> By analyzing this affinity table it seems possible to predict the relative potency and effect of any hallucinogen based soley on binding profiles, though the three control molecules at the bottom of the list (6-F-DMT, Lisuride, 4C-T-2) are reportedly non-hallucinogenic despite high 5-HT receptor promiscuity; this is likely because they are not active as agonists, they are antagonists, or their binding profiles are not synergistic and somehow cancel each other out.
> 
> Salvia divinorum interrupts kappa-Opiod tactile sensory pathways; these pathways mediate pain, gravity awareness, and sensation for determining physical orientation in space."


Interesting as 25i-nbome also agonizes u opiate and kappa-opiate to a small limited degree. This might have explaind my feelings of weightlessness when walking outside in a garden at the peak of one of my first trips.


----------



## skillet

> In comparison, mescaline has no affinity for 5-HT2A or 5-HT2C, he saids this explains why it is largely considered a non-visual psychedelic, along with 5-meo-dmt, dipt, and mdma.



Bollocks, mescaline has a Ki of 360 (+/- 70) nM at [125I]DOI labelled r5-HT2A receptors, and similar at 2C, according to Nichols in the jimscaline paper. The Ray paper used results from the PDSP, who use antagonists to label the 2A and 2C receptors.


----------



## tregar

Thanks for the info skillet, I had my doubts as well...I've read receptor reports from 3 different sources across various popular psychedelics and there are definately differences reported from each study. This appears to be a gross error in Kent's book. Mescaline is plenty visual (at higher doses) to not only myself but lots of others.


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## tryp2fun

Here is the result of a recent experiment.  2.1 mg of recrystallized 25I-NBOMe hydrochloride was dissolved in 1 mL of water, which went slowly, since the compound was granular.  200 uL of this resulting solution (420 ug) was then applied sublingually with an oral syringe and held for 20 minutes without swallowing.  Within 45 minutes, a strong and pleasurable +3 experience resulted.  No need for cyclodextrin.  Conclusion:  The problems with solubility and activity reported above for 25I-NBOMe must be due to the supplier giving the free base instead of the HCl salt.


----------



## Pegasus

^ Well that makes sense...


----------



## reformer

tryp2fun said:


> recrystallized 25I-NBOMe hydrochloride



Could you please briefly describe the conditions and solvent that was used for recrystallization?

TIA!!


----------



## MattPsy

For recrystallisation, an acetone/IPA cosolvent (1:1) works well, or at least it does for 25C, 25I would be just as applicable I should think. (HCl salts)


----------



## Addam

tryp2fun said:


> Here is the result of a recent experiment.  2.1 mg of recrystallized 25I-NBOMe hydrochloride was dissolved in 1 mL of water, which went slowly, since the compound was granular.  200 uL of this resulting solution (420 ug) was then applied sublingually with an oral syringe and held for 20 minutes without swallowing.  Within 45 minutes, a strong and pleasurable +3 experience resulted.  No need for cyclodextrin.  Conclusion:  The problems with solubility and activity reported above for 25I-NBOMe must be due to the supplier giving the free base instead of the HCl salt.


 
Encouraging information. 
I've been mulling over recrystallizing my material with some Hcl. Even though it was supplied as Hcl, its properties regarding solubility don't seem to jive with that. If it is the freebase, I'd much rather have it as a hydrochloride salt for long term storage of course.


----------



## tryp2fun

reformer said:


> Could you please briefly describe the conditions and solvent that was used for recrystallization?
> 
> TIA!!



The compound was dissolved in a few drops of isopropyl alcohol, acidified with 1 drop of 12 M HCl to be sure that it was the hydrochloride, and diluted with some ether, maybe 1-2 mL, then tightly stoppered.  After a day, clear granular crystals had formed and were collected.


----------



## Thou

There's some of this going around in blotter form and I've two questions:

1) If oral/buccal administration seems to be so inefficient for what reason lay on blotter?

2) Is there a way to isolate the chemical from the blotter somehow (I know this is kind of a stupid questions, I admit I'm no chemistry major)?


----------



## psood0nym

There sure is a lot of information about getting this compound to -- maybe -- work sublingually. It's all quite informative, but 25C has been reported to work rectally. It's a good bet 25I will work that way, too. Blotters will also work rectally, no isolation of the compound necessary (stick them in a gel cap beforehand or just lube up the squares and go bareback). As long as you're man enough to get over the unconscionable horror many young male bluelighters' own assholes seem to strike in them, problem solved. If you're not, then, really, what the hell are you doing using unresearched ludicrously potent psychedelics?


----------



## Thou

My asshole doesn't frighten me. 

This concept is a strange one, I must say. It's like being afraid of your ear drums.


----------



## tregar

So we both had a third experiment in dreams last night. 550ug HPBCD (hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin) complexed drug buccally applied was our most potent to date and kicked both our asses (especially hers), a +4 for her (except lacking spiritually) and an upper +3 for me with only 550ug applied to inner upper lip for 20 minutes, saliva and spit held in mouth for only 15 minutes, then swallowed, while strip allowed to sit an extra 5 minutes under tongue after being transferred. There is a characteristic faint "numbing" sensation of taste felt in the mouth at approximately 20 to 30 minutes after applying blotter that slowly fades away to nothing at the 45 minute point. After the 20 minute blotter soak on upper gum, we transferred it to under the tongue to hold it there for about 5 minutes as well.

Now, whether you have freebase or hcl 25i-nbome does not matter, as I have done more research and found that the cyclodextrin also increases the penetration and absorption of even hcl bound drug. It is useful for either the freebase or the salt. The cyclodextrin binds or entraps any lipohilic part of the molecule then transfers it easily in the saliva which it can then absorb into (as it has now been made very water soluble), to the surfaces of the mucosal where it then also increases penetration effectiveness many fold, some studies showing 95% absorption in 20 minutes when complexed to the very hydrophobic (water fearing) molecule testosterone. 25i-nbome is also hydro-phobic. HPBCD works miracles on improving the absorption of hydrophobic drugs.

I've found that it is best NOT to add extra hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin powder on top the blotter piece, as it is not needed, it will only serve to obstruct the entry of the allready HPBCD complexed drug, using "too much" cyclodextrin is not advised. Just as the companie's websites who sell cyclodextrin advise, you want to use neither "too little" nor "too much" but just the right amount. I have found x9 times the CD (cyclodextrin) to drug as the manufacturer suggest to be the perfect amount, although you can use up to x20 the amount of cyclodextrin to drug as well, just don't go sprinkling on extra huge amounts of powder to the allready soaked and complexed blotter piece as I used to do in the past.

As the alcohol solution of cyclodextrin and drug on blotter dries in front of a fan heater over about a 10 minute period, during the last stages of evaporation, the cyclodextrin fully complexes to the drug, then it is ready for application sublingually (under tongue) or buccally (on upper inner lip).

anyhow, long ago, 100mg of 25i-nbome had been slowly sprinkled (added over a 5 minute period) to a spinning 100ml of 95% etoh (drinkable alcohol measured out on a tall 100ml volumetric cylinder) on a magnetic stirrer with stir bar. This was allowed to spin 12 hours.....then 900mg of HPBCD powder had been added as well over a 5 minute period, this complete solution was then allowed to spin for an additional 12 hours. Then after spinning, it was put into freezer in a jar, it has been kept like this for a couple months now, no loss of potency and should store like this indefinately. This gave me a soution of 100ug of drug to each 0.1 ml on the 1ml insulin syringe. If I were to mix this again, I would use only 50 ml of 95% etoh to give me a concentration of 200ug of drug per each 0.1ml, so that would mean less alcohol to evaporate from the blotter, meaning half the time to make/evaporate alcohol from blotter.

1. this was the most potent buccal experiment to date, it came on rapid, within only 1 hour of putting the 1.75" x 5/16" blotter strip above the inner lip (and letting it sit there for 20 minutes), we were both at full effects. I bet putting a square piece of soaked and fully dried blotter under tongue for 15 minutes would be very highly effective as well.

2. 550ug (0.55)ml of the solution from the jar was sucked up via insulin syringe, and the alcohol solution was slowly deposited back and forth on the blotter strip (similar to a cre*t whitening strip size), the blotter strip was then allowed to dry in front of a holmes fan heater for 10 minutes, it dried rather quickly since no extra cyclodextrin powder was sprinkled on top the blotter. If I were to mix this again, I would use only 50 ml of 95% etoh to give me a concentration of 200ug of drug per each 0.1ml, so that would mean less alcohol to evaporate from the blotter, meaning half the time to make/evaporate alcohol from blotter.

3. The blotter contained 4.9mg of cyclodextrin from the solution and 550ug of the drug from the solution (as there is x9 the amount of cyclodextrin to drug) remember as mixed above (550 x 9 = 4.9mg of cyclodextrin).

4. two of these blotter strips were made and each subject applied to upper lip, and it was allowed to adhere to the upper inner lip for 20 minutes, saliva and spit was help that was generated for 15 minutes, then swallowed, but the strip was still allowed to sit on upper inner lip for 5 more minutes.

5. energy come-up was felt within only 30 minutes, and by 1 hour, full effects were noted, the cyclodextrin-complexed drug came on quite quickly and felt nearly just like it had been nasally administered...the cyclodextrin not only allowed the drug to be absorbed very quickly via sublingual or buccal route, but also caused about 95% of it to be absorbed as opposed to approximately 50% or so normally (non-complexed) imho.

6. She was at a +4 within 1.5 hour, and I was at an upper +3 by 1.5 hour.

7. During the come-up her ego was softly relenquished and she lost the sense of who she was and what she was doing for a period, there was anxiety for her during the comeup portion as it was so strong in its effects but after the 2 hour comeup period she felt fully relaxed when all the anxiety had completely passed she told me. I on the other hand did not experience any anxiety as I was used to quite strong mind and come-up states such as this. I remember standing to the side of a mirror at one point and being able to observe myself as well as my reflection "from a third party" perspective which had never happened to me on a psychedelic trip before. 

8. She was experiencing very heavy visuals, invisible smoke billing from the floors into the air, pink and purple colors forming in mid-air, glitter being seen everywhere and energy trails and shooters, patterns seen on skin...when looking into a computer monitor for me, the image on the screen morphed and changed into other things without any need for mind or eye tricks on my part, very similar to my acid tryptamine like visuals with things morphing and changing into other things, energy glitter sparklies were seen darting too and fro the whole time as well, in the other room, things were beginning to expand and shrink and grow. She saw lots of block patterning and geometric formations, it was almost "too visual" during the comeup for her, like walking through air castles of patterns and formations.

9. Music sounded absolutely outstanding and there was extreme empathy and a dominant euphoria was experienced during the first few hours by myself, it seemed to remind me of my first "E" experience of long ago, extreme empathy and heavy euphoria, just incredible bliss experienced by my self. Looking at TV, ugly faces were experienced as "more grotesque" and beautiful faces and bodies were experienced as "incredibly beautiful" just like with my tryptamine like visuals in the past with other substances. As the anxiety had passed for her, she was having a very enjoyable time, both subjects had a blast after the comeup period till the trip ended. For some reason the visual part of the trip had ended abruptly at only 4.5 hours after applying blotter, could have been that the cyclodextrin caused the drug to be absorbed nearly as fast (but not quite as totally fast) as when it have been nasally applied, so therefore a quicker comeup with a shorter plateau, anyhow, all the trips I have had with this stuff have been different from each one in different ways so I would not expect the length of the trips to always be the exact same either, not to mention I did not sprinkle on an extra 5 to 10mg of cyclodextrin on the blotter first before applying the alcohol/cyclodextrin/drug drops from the insulin needle, so by only using the proper amount of cyclodextrin to begin with (I avoided adding extra CD), the stuff came on rather quickly and with great absorption effectiveness. I'm not quite able to understand how this compound creates the incredible delightful best non-mdma euphoria that it does, but it has done it each time for me, really interesting.


10. For us to both experience (for her a +4) and for me an upper +3, the buccal cyclodextrin proved extremely effective. Don't add extra cyclodextrin to the blotter before applying, you don't want to overdo it, too much can obstruct effective absorption, but the proper amount used (x 9 times the amount of drug) is perfect, with unbelievable effectiveness. I could never imagine administering this 550ug amount nasally, the buccally applied cyclodextrin complexed stuff had the intensity of nasal allready with the imho same exact absorption effectivness (about 95% is absorbed when complexed to CD (cylodextrin)....I am apt to say "are you kidding....apply this via nasal???, no way!!" it was super potent and VERY intense with CD complxed applied buccally....there is no way I would want to go above this intensity, that would just be insane, the buccal was the most intensity we could both stand as is. 

11. how did it seem like acid and differ from acid? 

1. it had a slightly shorter duration of visual effects (for this trip anyways) due to the rapid absorption sublingually/buccally (quite similar to nasally applied, about exact same absorption percentage as nasal, but came on about 20 minutes later than as a nasally applied trip would begin), the heavy visuals were about 4.5 hours long, with only the headspace of the trip continuing beyond that. 

2. The visuals would be more comparable as erny had stated long ago to the visuals of DOI, however I experienced very tryptamine like visuals (similar to acid visuals) when staring at images, as they would morph and change into other images over and over, with hidden images behind the main image that would form, and they too would morph and change, and so on and so into their own little worlds of visual life. energy glitter and "sparklies" would shoot too and fro constantly when looking at something, energy sparkles, lots of color and beauty and everything looked very alive and full of energy.

3. All sense of time was lost for both of us and it may have had the visuals of DOI and lots of visuals (similar for me) to acid visuals when staring at things, but the headspace felt like that of the acid headspace for the most part, very enjoyable with overflowing euphoria and empathy, the "human-ness" of humanity was experienced for the duration of the trip, feelings, empathy, connections, emotions amplified and complex. She found the visuals different from acid (for the most part) but she did comment that the headspace was very similar to that of acid headspace as well, but that the trip was way less spiritual for her than an acid trip. She also did not see the same typical mayan/archatypical patterning and imaging as she was used to seeing on acid, she missed seeing those images. Instead she saw way different types of patterning and "blocky/geometric" imaging, strobe flashes, smoke billowing and glitter with lots of purple and pink coloring everywhere. She remarked that she loved seeing the brilliant colored sparkly energized glitter darting around everywhere, and missed it when the visuals ended abruptly for both of us at the 4.5 hour point. I am not surprised at this fact since acid hits a whole dog-gone range of receptor sites along with 5-ht2A, 5-ht2C, 5-ht2B, 5-ht6 that 25i-nbome hits. The 5-ht1 sites which acid hits probably contribute to "well-being and satisfaction (spiritually?)" as opposed to 5-ht2a agonism. mescaline also hits 5-ht1a and 5-ht1e and it is also quite spiritual, I imagine combining a 25i-nbome trip with mescaline would give you tons of spiritual feelings and connections along with adding archetypical imaging (seeing lots of real archatypical images and even myan/tribal images, etc.) along with the typical 25i-nbome images. with eyes closed I saw plenty of movie type images of people going about business as well as fractal patterning. I need to explore the CEV's more in the future, but I was trying to pay attention to her trip more as well, so spent little time with eyes closed. During the 1st 2 hours of the comeup she remarked that the visuals were too much for her, she was relieved when the anxiety passed after 2 hours and the visuals were tolerable and she felt relaxed at last. She did remark that music & all sounds sounded just as extraordinary as it does on acid. At the peak, we both watched our favorite movie, and it was like seeing it for the first time, details were seen that we never paid attention to before, the plot and characters were felt as if we were there in the actors and actresses place sharing the experience with them & being emotionally drawn into their world, just an overall amazing experience, and every little sound and all music heard with crystal clear perception of the highest level, putting together new thoughts in your mind....sensory amplification & sensual enchantment. Never at any point was there any nausea, gastointestinal distress or other physical side effects for either one of us, zero body load as with acid. In contrast to her, with this substance, I enjoyed myself during the entire come-up portion as well, my ego was for the most part intact during the comeup & I had no anxiety, whereas hers was relinquished for a period.

4. 25i-nbome is "it's own special psychedelic" just as acid is "it's own special psychedelic" but I am extremely grateful that 25i-nbome shares much of the same headspace as acid along with the good humor (we laughed a lot at movies like funny or die, saw 4 episodes) and lots of empathy and euphoria/joy just like with acid. There were complex thoughts and art & music was amplified beyond comprehension, very fun and joyous after the comeup period. One of my previous experiences in dreams with 25i helped me to change certain behaviors and be an even better person, it has good entheogenic life changing qualities that you may not even notice the night of the trip, but may take hold of your thoughts the morning after. It leaves one with no headache the next day, in fact the next morning you have good energy and feel remarkably refreshed (just like a good acid trip) as if the "reset" button has been pressed on your serotonic brain, allowing you to "make a fresh start" and see things from a brand new perspective.


----------



## reformer

*Thx*



tryp2fun said:


> The compound was dissolved in a few drops of isopropyl alcohol, acidified with 1 drop of 12 M HCl to be sure that it was the hydrochloride, and diluted with some ether, maybe 1-2 mL, then tightly stoppered.  After a day, clear granular crystals had formed and were collected.



Sweet. Perfectly succinct, yet detailed description... Just what I was hoping for. Thanks!

Thanks also mattpsy for the 25C based alternate approach, much appreciated.

As a side note- Using T2F's buccal drip method with 25D @ 20 and then subsequently 15 ul of a 8.4 ug/ul (mg/ml) solution dropped with a pipette into the buccal zone was very effective for a low dose trial. Blotter not needed, insuff not required for effect. These 160 and 120 ug trials worked great via this method. Effects as expected, liquid insufflation is about 1.5 X stronger of course, but buccal drip ROA avoids the rocket-quick harsh comeup. Will be using this from now on likely.


----------



## tregar

Interesting erowid report:


> Tears of Joy
> 2C-I-NBOMe
> by p3ych0n4ught
> 
> DOSE: T+ 0:00 	  	smoked 	2C-I-NBOMe 	(powder / crystals)
> T+ 0:20 	  	smoked 	2C-I-NBOMe 	(powder / crystals)
> 
> BODY WEIGHT: 	185 lb
> 
> 
> After ordering from a reliable vendor I received 1 gram of 25I NBOME as a fluffy white powder. Unaware if this was the salt or freebase I proceeded to do a simple solubility test. The compound proved to insoluble in H20 leading me to believe that it was the freebase. I decided that vaporization would be the most effective route of administration. I had planned to use volumetric measurement but was unable to get the chemical to dissolve after several different attempts. (I later discovered that 25I NBOME freebase is soluble in 91% Isopropyl alcohol) But, this time around I had no accurate way of measuring at a ug dose so I prepared a dose as small as I could (eyeballing a dose this small is not recommended and dangerous). This was vaporized.
> 
> Set: I am in the middle of a cross roads in my life. I was living in the woods/ on the streets for a while and I am trying to make the right decision about reintegrating into society. I recently quit smoking Marijuana, JWH-018, and Cigarettes after long habitual use to try to clear my mind. I have been completely sober 30 days when I decide to take this trip.
> 
> I consider psychedelics to be some of the greatest teachers I have had and I consider myself to have a complex relationship with each I have used. Feeling lost I returned to LSD earlier this year. I went in with an open mind and open heart yet, I heard nothing. All I got was visuals. I turned to DMT and had the exact same experience. It was purely sensory and superficial.
> 
> I seek out a psychologist who is unable to help me see clearly how I can live within a class-based society without compromising my core values of basic human equality.
> 
> Setting: A CRAZY HOT summer day.
> 
> 0:00 The smoke had a chemical taste as expected but it was such a small amount of smoke that it was easily forgotten.
> 
> 0:01 The onset is quick. I feel euphoric and a sensation similar to previous experiences with 2C-E.
> 
> 0:02 I feel a vibrating sensation move through my body. It continues and extends seamlessly to the room I am in as a rippling patter on the walls. Colors are more vibrant and my pupils are dilated.
> 
> 0:05 – 0:10 My head space is very clear and I am lucid. The rush subsides and I reach a plateau. I am at a ++.
> 
> 0:20 There is no change form 0:10 and I decide to re-dose with the smallest amount I can measure. This dose is vaporized.
> 
> 0:21 The vibrating sensation becomes very powerful and the rippling pattern on the walls turns into solid bars of color which create dramatic swirls. I am at a +++. My room looks nothing like what it looks like normally. I can think clearly and decide to listen to some music.
> 
> 0:22 The solid bar patterns on the walls begin to dance as I experience strong synesthesia. The proportions of everything in the room grow and shrink with the music. I am experience strong time dilation. The visuals are as intense as previous 500ug LSD trips but lack the geometric patterning. Unlike LSD even with this high level of visual distortion I can still think relatively clearly and continue to preform simple tasks like searching through songs on my iPod.
> 
> 0:30 The visual distortion is very intense and music sounds beautiful. The trip seems to plateau again. But, this is not what I seek from this chemical. I see chemicals like this as an extension of the creativity of nature and I am looking to this chemical to help resolve a complex cognitive dissonance within me. ===> I believe we should all live as equals but I am dependent upon a society, that distributes socio/economic power unevenly, for things like health care, and the science that has created this beautiful chemical, and the computer I write this report on. I am disappointed but the trip is still euphoric and up-beat. I accept it for what it is, swirly patterns and bright lights. I don't expect much more.
> 
> 0:40 I decide to go for a long walk outside to enjoy the sun. I change clothes and put on my shoes with ease. I am surprised my fine motor skill are as enacted as they are. If I were on LSD or DMT with this level of visual distortion the thought distortion would be to intense for me to walk around much, let alone tie my shoes.
> 
> 1:00 Music is beautiful. I am completely content. I walk for another hour.
> 
> 2:00 I get back home and realize the trip is still at a solid +++. I take a shower. Every drop of water that hits my body makes a radiant multi colored circle on the wall, ceiling, or floor.
> 
> 4:00 I decide to go for another walk.
> 
> 5:00 It's dusk, the visuals are beginning to subside. I'm still listening to music when suddenly the euphoria in my body shifts to a powerful empathy. I can suddenly see everything in my life independent of my emotions, fears, hopes, aspirations. It reminds me a lot of MDMA. I realize how distracting the music I’ve been listening to for so long is and I take my headphones out, lay down next to the path I am on and just listen to the world around me. I hear my neighbor's dogs barking and cars driving by. It was like everything I was trying to figure out in my life, my internal monologue, everything just shut down and in thinking about nothing I suddenly understood everything. The tidal pool of emotions and ideas within me was suddenly a placid lake and in that lake I could see myself reflected as I truly was. I simply lay there not happy or sad but completely at peace. I don't know for how long. Time simply did not exist for me.
> 
> Out of 50+ trips I can say that this was one of only 2 times that I have ever reached what I would call a ++++. I realized that I should not spend my life trying to run from the crazy society we live in to live in my own idealized world. Instead I should grow where I am planted and accept the world and its complexities as the divine embodiment of nature's creativity ever evolving. Always as it is meant to be. It was time for me to stop arrogantly imposing my ideals about the way things should be in a world too complex for any one man/woman to understand. To stop trying to change everything around me and instead “be the change I want to see in the world” from where I am.
> 
> Eventually I get up and decide to walk home. My mind is so clear, it's like a chalk board that has just been wiped clean. I start to cry tears of joy for the first time in a long time.
> 
> Sleep came easy that night and I woke up the next morning feeling refreshed.
> 
> This experience ended a powerful depression I had been in instantaneously. I don't know how and I can't explain it. It just happened. This chemical has changed my life.
> 
> 
> Exp Year: 2010


I can fully relate to what happened to him, my 2nd experience with this psychedelic gave me a wake up call the next morning to stop abusing a stimulant (which I have since not abused again), which I was able to do for the first time in half a year, it also caused me to change several other of my behaviors for the better, no nonsense yet gentle in its approach.


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## JBrandon

wow, those are both beautiful reports. Tregar, thank you so much for your work regarding the complexation. You have set my expectations for this chem so high though!


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## tregar

Thanks JBrandon

One final word:

I have a feeling that combining this stuff with mescaline will give a trip that is extremely close to acid in many ways, however, 25i feels so darn close allready, or is so special in its own way that it really doesn't need anything to "complete it". However, mescaline hits the receptors that 25i lacks, and 25i hits the receptors that mescaline lacks...in other words, they overlap with remarkable precision. 25i is allready the closest thing to acid I've ever exprienced, I just feel that 25i needs a little extra "spiritual push" to complete it....If you get spiritual feelings from the extreme empathy and euphoria that 25i produces, then there is no need for mescaline, but if you really want to push the envelope, then mescaline is the ticket.

Kent's book "psychedelic information theory" states the following in general terms:

* 5-HT1 affinity is generally thought to work in contrast to 5-HT2A agonism to promote well-being and satisfaction. Mescaline, 5-MEO-DMT, DIPT, LSD all have a high 5-HT1 affinity. Mescaline hits (5-HT1A at 3.61, note this value is from an inverse chart, where 4.0 indicates maximum affinity), LSD hits (5-HT1A at 1.1, this is from the ki chart where 0.0 indicates maximum affinity). Mescaline hits (5-HT1E at 3.16, this is from the ki chart where 4.0 indicates maximum affinity). LSD hits (5-HT1E at 2.62, this is from the ki chart where 4.0 indicates maximum affinity). 25i lacks affinity for 5-HT1A and 5-HT1E.

* 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C are the most important receptors that all the main psychedelics hit, with the most potent psychedelics hitting them real hard...they are implicated in extreme visual activity and complex thinking. 25i-nbome hits these two receptors (5HT2A & 5-HT2C) harder than any other psychedelic out there. 25i hits (5-HT2A at 0.044) and hits (5-HT2C at 2.0), LSD is only able to hit (5HT2A at 3.5) and hits (5-HT2C at only 23.0). The lower the ki value, the greater the receptor binding.

* 5-HT2B is implicated with purely sensual or entactogenic effect. 25i hits (5-HT2B at 231), and LSD hits (5-HT2B at 25). Mescaline hits (5-HT2B at 3.97, this is from the inverse chart with 4.00 indicating maximum affinity). MDMA hits (5-HT2B at 3.64, this is from the inverse chart with 4.00 indicating maximum affinity).

DiPT, Mescaline, and MDMA have very poor 5-HT2A, 2C affinity, but all have a high 5-HT2B and adrenal affinity, cardiovascular activity, and acute sensuality. 5-HT2B affinity is quite high for all theses.

* 5-HT6 is implicated with ??? 25i hits (5-HT6 at 73.0), LSD hits (5-HT6 at 6.0).

* 5-HT7 is implicated with reward activity and overall transcendent psychedelic action, with the mystically popular DMT, 5-MEO-DMT, and LSD topping the affinity list for this receptor. LSD hits (5-HT7 at 6.0). Now neither 25i nor mescaline hit 5-HT7.

* adrenal-2a receptor is hit by mescaline at 2.92 (inverse chart), whereas LSD hits adrenal-2a at 2.93 (inverse chart), very similar.

* adrenal-2c receptor is hit by mescaline at 4.00 (inverse chart, maximum value), whereas MDMA hits adrenal-2c receptor at 3.21.

* 25i does not hit any of the adrenal receptors.

adrenal affinity is implicated (along with 5-HT2B) with effectivenss at stimulating serotonin production, cardiovascular activity, and acute sensuality.

So in other words, mescaline will target 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E and 5-HT2B receptors with extreme affinity....and the 25i will target the 5-HT2A, 5-HT2C, 5-HT6, and 5-HT2B with great affinity. Mescaline fills in the spiritual well-being and satisfaction void, and 25i fills in the extreme visual activity and complex thinking. Mescaline by also targeting the 5-HT2B receptor with even greater intensity than 25i, contributes to even greater increased sensual and entactogenic effect. Now, 25i is very empathogenic and sensual all on it's own, imho appearing in the trips I've had to be near equal to mdma in the euphoria it produces mentally, and 25i goes even deeper & feeling more natural than the substance mdma.
------------------------------------------------------------
So by adding mescaline along with 25i, we get the following:

5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT6, adrenal-2a, adrenal-2c
------------------------------------------------------------
Mescaline overlaps 25i perfectly, filling in the gaps needed while 25i overlaps mescaline filling in the gaps perfectly as well.

The only thing of importance really missing is 5-HT7 agonism, which LSD hits at 6.0 (regular ki chart, where 0.0 = maximum affinity)...5-HT5A, 5-HT5B, 5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, d1, d2 are the other receptors that acid hits, but little is known about the significance of these.

Take this all with a grain of salt, as psychedelic information theory is purely theoretical at this point.


----------



## psood0nym

Here's the link to Kent's book for reference.


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## tregar

Thanks psood0nym, good link.


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## Incunabula

So lately I have been seeing some reports, or people mentioning, that they grinded their teeth (bruxism) or had tight jaws when tripping on NBOME´s........

I´m having some 25I on it´s way to me, as I think it sounds very intriguing, but I am VERY susceptible to bruxism, in a manner that taking a drug that causes it, can make me grind my teeth in my sleep for days or weeks.

I don´t grind my teeth, on say, DPT or LSD, but I have sometimes felt a "lessening of control" of the jaw muscle on these substances. Like the jaw sometimes makes small involuntary movements or jerks. 

How bad do you people find the bruxism on NBOME`s? in particular 25I.
Can you compare it to any other drug, in that regard?


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## psykap

Somebody has right , I'm starting to believe that I dont received HCL only freebase! This would explain why I could not dissolve this in any solvent and why it was inactive intransally , I hope that HPBCD solve trouble with this . Seller mistake? unawareness ?  On MSDS was wrotten that its HCL .



> After ordering from a reliable vendor I received 1 gram of 25I NBOME as a fluffy white powder. Unaware if this was the salt or freebase I proceeded to do a simple solubility test. The compound proved to insoluble in H20 leading me to believe that it was the freebase



I think that I got this same stuff :D


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## Help?!?!

I have TMJ and didn't seem to notice any extra jaw clenching than normal from other phens. I did take 10 mgs Baclofen though because I had a tight jaw already from grinding my teeth the night previous. I certainly didn't notice it reaching a MDMA level or anything though my results are slightly skewered and noted no abnormal tightness in the jaw the morning following which usually means I probably didn't grind much during the night. This was with 25C BTW. Will probably have more information at my disposal coming up. Though i'm sure someone can help you by then.


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## Incunabula

Thanks for the reply, Help?!?! Yes, I can´t really see any reason the NBOMe´s should be more stimulating than their 2C counterpart. Then again, pharmacology is supposed to be totally different so.....

Kind of off-topic, but it´s very interesting with the Baclofen. Do you get it prescribed from your doctor?
I guess you just use it as temporary relief, and not as something you take everyday, right? 
I sometimes use Clonazepam against bruxism, but I actually hate being drowsy. And it´s not very convenient during the week, with work and stuff. It does work though.

It´s kind of strange that Baclofen has similar mechanism of action as GHB, which is known to cause nocturnal bruxism in it self. Actually my problems with nightly grinding really started seriously, after a combined GHB and amphetamine binge a couple of years back.

I really can´t recommend  that combination, but of cause, everybodies MMW


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## tregar

neither one of us had any grinding teeth whatsoever on 550ug of 25i....according to Kent's book, 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C agonism will always stimulate blood pressure to some slight degree....so you might notice a slight increase in blood pressure or pulse rate early on during trip. As far as I could tell, there was zero body load, and noticed only a slight increase in pulse rate, but other than that, nothing. other subject did not notice increase in blood pressure or pulse rate. Acid at high doses also causes slight increase in blood pressure/pulse rate early on during the trip for me as well.

Psykap, according to my cyclodextrin research, HPBCD will complex to either freebase or the HCL, it doesn't matter, it REALLY super increases the absorption of the freebase, so be thankful for that, if you do have the freebase. According to the research, the cyclodextrin also increases the HCL solubility as well, by increasing the penetration factors, so either way you come out ahead, with the hcl form of the drug, any lipohilic portion of the molecule still gets entrapped to the inside of the cyclodextrin cage according to one of the papers I read (see links given earlier).

Think of it this way, testosterone freebase has only 0.033mg per 1ml solubility in water, in other words it just floats on top water and will not mix, however, once you complex testosterone freebase powder to HPBCD, then it becomes 100% water soluble, instantly dissolving into water that had the cyclodextrin dissolved in it (becoming fully complexed after about 1 hour of stirring). Study by Dr. Pitha showed 95% absorption of cyclodextrin complexed testosterone freebase in as little as 20 minutes when applied sublingually under tongue.

I could not even imagine using 550ug via nasal, the HPBCD complexed 550ug of 25i was super intense when used buccally (upper lip for 20 minutes, then put under tongue for 5 minutes)....to go above the intensity we experienced would be insane, full effects were felt at the 1 hour point, peak effects at 1.5 hour, cyclodextrin complexed stuff is very potent when used sublingually (under tongue) or buccally (in the mouth between cheek and gum). It had the visual intensity of about 200ug of acid for several hours, the visual effects lasted about 5 hours, with only the headspace remaining after that, the total trip is a couple hours less than an acid trip. 

For more instructions on how to complex using 95% drinkable alcohol or even vodka, just re-read my latest trip report, detailed instructions there. to complex 100mg of 25i, you need to first dissolve x9 the amount of cyclodextrin to drug, so you add 900mg of HPBCD to the 50ml of alcohol, stir it 8 hours, then at the 8 hour point, slowly sprinkle in 100mg of your nbome over the course of about 5 to 10 minutes (slowly)....then let it spin for 12 hours overnight, then remember that when you draw up 0.2ml of the solution (each 0.1ml = 200ug drug), you will get 400ug of drug when the 0.2ml of alcohol solution is dropped onto a square blotter, allow it to dry in front of a fan heater for 10 minutes or more until COMPLETELY dry, only in the very last stages of alcohol evaporation does the drug become fully complexed to the cyclodextrin, then and only then (when it is fully dry) will it be ready for sublingual (under tongue) or buccal application. This is just one way of doing it. 50ml of liquid mentioned above should only be measured out on a tall graduated volumetric cylinder for accuracy.

Concerning alcohol(30 to 95 percent)/water mixture vs water:

water works excellent. Even vodka works. If you use anything with alcohol in it, then the solution when put on a blotter must be fully evaporated all the way until it is completely dry, only in the very last stages of the evaporation of the alcohol does the drug get entrapped inside the CD (cyclodextrin)...for more information on how this happens, see the study quoted above from Dr. Pitha. Notice the 2nd paragraph of the paper above where it starts out with the word "Surprisingly..." The nice thing about alcohol solutions is that they can be frozen and yet not freeze, so the solution can be pulled out without having to unthaw it, so it's handy for long term storage at cold conditions.

With a water solution, that is an excellent choice as the complex forms "in solution" after only several hours of spinning (give it about 8 to 12 hours to spin)...this can be stored frozen as well, but will have to be "dethawed" when some is needed, or can be stored in fridge (no dethaw needed)....I would be careful about the solution growing bacteria over time however since there is no alcohol in the solution to prevent bacterial growth, not to mention that when the water solution is dropped on a blotter it will take much longer time for the water to evaporate in front of a fan heater...however, the pure water method would work excellent if your idea was to make several blot pieces all at once for personal researcher study, then once they were dry could be stored away. However, as always none of this stuff is approved for human use, only scientific research.

Remember that if you use water, you want to dissolve the cyclodextrin powder in the water first, let it stir for some time (say several hours), then slowly sprinkle in your substance over a 5 to 10 minute period, you should find that the substance will then easily dissolve in water, allow this to stir a good 12 hours. The cyclodextrin makes the substance water soluble as it complexes in solution. 

* With a water solution, the drug and cyclodextrin complex while IN solution after 12 hours of stirring...after application on a blotter, it is of course fully complexed even while still wet, or when dry....However, with a water/alcohol solution, the drug and cyclodextrin complex completely only after application on a blotter when it is fully dry (complexes only during the final stages of alcohol evaporation).

-----------------------------------------------------------------
* No personal researcher should be messing with this stuff unless they own a magnetic stirrer, stir bar, tall graduated cylinder, and an insulin syringe, and most importantly a .001 accurate scale. Without any of these items spells disaster...and probably soon to follow emergency scheduling....and remember none of this is approved for human use.
-----------------------------------------------------------------


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## tregar

The sublingually/buccally applied cyclodextrin complexed material at 550ug (held on upper inner lip for 20 minutes and under tongue for 5 minutes) was so strong it could have fooled me, thinking I had taken it nasally (even though I didn't)...the comeup was fast, the energy ride up was intense, visuals near the equivalency of 200ug of acid, only in it's own special visual way, like being in a club full of whirling and strobing colored lights even though there are no lights on as she described it, yet still as the trip develops, the visuals are not just overlays as with 25c, (as I read someone write once) but with 25i, are more a part of your surroundings, seeming very similar in many ways to ergoline/tryptamine acid visuals during the peak and stages after that when you stare at images on a monitor or posters on a wall, the actual image morphs and changes into other things, and this continues over and over, the whole while colored energy glitter shooting to and fro in front of what you are seeing. There is incredible beauty seen in all living and non-living things and everything appears full of energy. Even though the visual portion was intense, thinking was still for the most part quite lucid to me the entire time and not confusing at any point like it can be with acid or especially ayahuasca, so that is how the mental part differs. Throw in some mescaline and the trip could become quite spiritual and transcendent, the additional 5-ht1a and 5-ht1e agonism from the mescaline will also have modulation effects on the 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c agonism of the 25i, causing not only well being and satisfaction feelings and thinking spiritually and otherwise, but possible modulation of the visuals as well, increasing their activity even more so, prompting not just visuals but actual visions modulation. The increased 5-ht2b agonism (quite strong) from the mescaline would only further serve to enhance the allready empathogenic and sensual 25i.

In the future will in dreams combine with 200mg of tan crystalline mescaline and give a report. If for some reason I've made it appear as if 25i needs a spiritual push, I didn't mean to do so, as stated before, it was the morning after my 2nd trip that I made changes in many of my behaviors and even stopped a 6 month long addiction that nothing else cured me of, the material is quite therapeutic, only it does it in it's own special way, powerful yet gentle, it brought up issues to me during not only my 2nd trip, but also my 1st trip, each trip bringing up some things that I needed to work on to become a better person, it seems to go straight for the therapeutic element, more so than some substances do. Even though I had been taking approximately 175ug of acid every few weeks for a while, surprisingly, it wasn't until I had the 25i trips, that I made actual changes to my behaviors and stopped an addiction, so that saids alot about the potent 5-ht2A and 5-ht2C target agonism of 25i...it is special with its therapeutic powers, very special, powerful yet gentle in its approach, just what I needed to make life long changes. Your mind and body are inter-connected as one, so if you keep yourself in good physical strong healthy shape, your mind should feel good as well, nurture your mind with spiritual Biblical teachings and think on a higher plane, these are things that my 2nd trip brought to the forefront, not to mention the changes in behavior, and teaching myself that I didn't need the chemical stimulant addiction at night that I had been pursuring for half a year. Mysterious powerful substances these psychedelics are. No other substance, stimulant or what have you can match the transcendent like powerful euphoria and empathy imho that this substance shows you that is allready inside yourself for a few short hours...it is a powerful tool...and when used properly, allows your mind to open and piece together new thoughts, to love your neighbors as you do yourself, creative and artistic insights, and think on a higher level, viewing your life from a new perspective. I wish that I would have ventured out side like I had done on 1st trip, but didn't get the chance as it was too dark.

Tools needed for research complexation in dreams:

* magnetic stirrer
* stir bar
* 50 to 100ml tall volumetric cylinder
* 50ml of 95% etoh, vodka or similar, even water 
* 900mg hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin 
* 100mg of 25i-nbome
* 1mg insulin syringe
* .001 accurate scale
* filter paper to cut a square or rectangular blotter piece from
* jar to store final solution in freezer
* electric fan heater or similar for quick drying of blotter piece after alcohol/drug/cyclodextrin solution applied, the above would give a concentration of 0.200ug of drug to x9 times cyclodextrin per each 0.1ml on the insulin syringe


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## Help?!?!

Fagott said:


> Thanks for the reply, Help?!?! Yes, I can´t really see any reason the NBOMe´s should be more stimulating than their 2C counterpart. Then again, pharmacology is supposed to be totally different so.....
> 
> Kind of off-topic, but it´s very interesting with the Baclofen. Do you get it prescribed from your doctor?
> I guess you just use it as temporary relief, and not as something you take everyday, right?
> I sometimes use Clonazepam against bruxism, but I actually hate being drowsy. And it´s not very convenient during the week, with work and stuff. It does work though.
> 
> It´s kind of strange that Baclofen has similar mechanism of action as GHB, which is known to cause nocturnal bruxism in it self. Actually my problems with nightly grinding really started seriously, after a combined GHB and amphetamine binge a couple of years back.
> 
> I really can´t recommend  that combination, but of cause, everybodies MMW


I have prescribed Bal, but I also have extra(TMJ is a bitch and no one wants to hear you complain about it...even doctors/dentists for the most part). Defintely do NOT take everyday, as jaw tenison and another example would be sleep are progressive problems and the medicines that aid them will also cause rebound tenison/sleep issues. So IMO its best to only use them when your about to scream from jaw issues. As far as GHB versus Bal, Bal works strictly on GHB receptors(which I believe science has coined as GHB's sedating qualities/muscle spasm help come from)while GHB also has affinity for GABA b. Its great to use when doing say a combo of known bruxism killers, like MDA/MDMA and other phens or if you just had a bad run of luck and have jaw tension beforehand. 

Tregar is your interest in Mescaline+NBOMe's due to your thoughts on HT agonism and visuals? Or do you just have an idea this would be a grand combo? Either way I will have the chance to try this sometime and most likely will if your sessions prove grand.


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## IamMe90

I have a feeling that, due to 25i's unanimously decided total lack of body load, it would make an excellent candidate for mixing with MDMA. Not that I'm recommending anyone guinea pig themselves for an untested combination where the pharmacology is little understood, it's just my gut instinct and I know that people will inevitably try this "flip" as time passes so I eagerly await reports of it. If it is benign as I hope it is, it should be amazing!


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## herbata_yanga

I've terminated my PEA research due to temporary vein problem that 9 mg of DOM caused for me, but I think that after long break from psychedelic drugs I will try this compound. It seems to have potential to became my favourite PEA. I think that it will be very intense experience and mixing it with serious ammount of thc at the peak will provide shocking effect.


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## tregar

Help?!?! asked:


> Tregar is your interest in Mescaline+NBOMe's due to your thoughts on HT agonism and visuals? Or do you just have an idea this would be a grand combo? Either way I will have the chance to try this sometime and most likely will if your sessions prove grand.


Both I would say, due to mescaline overlapping the receptors that 25i does not http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/report.php?p=9915885hit, and due to 25i overlapping the receptors that mescaline very poorly hits. I have a feeling it would be one extraordinary combo, creating a very unique psychedelic with tremendous visual & spiritual power, mimicking acid even more-so....and perhaps even extending the trip to the length of an acid trip. Should be able to post a trip report in 4 weeks, as i will wait that long until trying the combination, if it works well, look forward to hearing your own trip report. Taking mescaline along with acid has been described by some as the "cadillac" of psychedelics, I've tried that twice with the trips being incredible, will mescaline with 25i prove nearly the same? only time and experiment will tell. 

Concerning mdma: I used to love mdma for the longest time, then grew quite weary of the next day hangover and the length of time it would take to "get back to normal" and it's effects on sleep for a couple days, I literally can't stand the stuff anymore for it's fatigue and hangover properties that seem to linger for days on end. Taking fish oil daily has been shown to double the amount of serotonin in the frontal brain after 18 days in rabbits, I found the fish oil very effective for restoring serotonin & keeping your energy levels high, but the short period spent in an mdma state just wasn't worth the heavy toll it would extract on the body the next day and day after, while still taking 2 weeks until serotonin levels would rebound completely according to what I've read. 

I found 25i to also have a very prominent empathogenic quality, very deep and transformative, having more meaning that the sort of shallow emotional bliss I feel on ecstasy. The feelings of ecstasy can be predictable while 25i allows me to explore different feelings & deep meaning, the sort of thing I experience on moderate doses of acid (around 175ug).


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## psood0nym

^While I certainly think the 25I/MDMA  and 25I/mescaline combos are worth trying, there was some debate in Advanced Drug Discussion regarding Ray's paper (if that's what you're using to make your decisions) Link. For instance, one of the co-authors -- Brian Roth, director of the PDSP -- apparently refused to put his name on the paper because he thought there were problems with the methodology and didn't trust one of the techs doing a lot of the work. There are certainly many inconsistencies with past work (figures for MDMA and mescaline were among the contested ones), though I don't have the technical knowledge to go into in depth explanations.  I wish there was some follow-up regarding the study, because it would be really useful to know which of the figures are reliable. As it stands, I'm not sure how useful it is for planning combos for mescaline or MDMA...


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## tregar

Very good link, thanks psood0nym.

As far as combining with mdma, I would be very cautious, I have twice taken only 50mg of mdma the day after my 25i trips, only to find the mdma had very little effect and instead feeling slightly dizzy for hours instead, however 50mg of mdma would work just fine the 2nd day after taking 25i. Besides, there is no reason to combine 25i with mdma as the 25i is way more complex and deep imho than mdma. 

Mescaline and 25i will have to be experimented with in the future starting with a low dose of each, say 100mg of mescaline and 200ug of 25i to begin with.


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## psykap

Tregar, as you say I will prepare blotters with 5 mg HPBCD and 500 mcg 25i , but I mention that I got some ready blotters with 1 mg 25i and my question is following .
You said me that I should use 9 mg cyclodextrine to 1 mg but as you can imagine it will be probably impracticable because the biggest blotters has maximum any 6 mg capacity , so tell me what happen if I use only 5 mg HPBCD to 1 mg 25I , they will be still inactive ? Or maybe this quantity  strengthen the potency  of substance and power will be similar to blotters with 500 ug and 5 mg HPBCD?


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## tregar

You could still use only 5 to 6mg of cyclodextrin to 1mg of the stuff, but don't take a whole 1mg at once, that would be way too super intense, instead cut the 1mg blotter in half, only 500mg applied at one time for starters. There is no golden rule that it has to be 9x the cyclodextrin to drug, 4 to 5x will work ok too, 9x is just the standard quoted amount. 

This is the closest mescaline + 2ci-nbome trip account I could find, although this trip report is with mescaline + 2ci instead.

unknown:


> My favorite would have to be acid/cactus. The acid is taken at the same time as the mescaline. The visuals are greatly intensified. The ride up is much more enjoyable with acid, versus without. The mescaline smooths out the rough come-down that acid normally produces. I have great euphoria with this combo and little paranoia. These blend very well, at times I couldn't tell the effects of acid versus the effects of the mescaline; they blended so well.
> 
> My second favorite combination is 2c-i and mescaline/cactus. With impure mescaline, the 2c-i makes the first 2-3 hours a bit uncomfortable for the body. The ride up, is much better with pure/cleaned mescaline. This is an awe-inspiring combo for me. Everything looks beautiful. I feel very spiritual, confident, and euphoric; I feel something of a mystic on this combo. Thought can be anxious and quick, sometimes confusing; but overall, I feel "on top of the world" and in the moment. I am very amorous, wanting to cuddle with small animals, very honest, open, and social. This is all common effects on mescaline alone.
> 
> But if I take a small dose (less than 10mg), at the same time that I take the mescaline, then the experience becomes something overwhelming and very spiritual. I find great synergy with this combo; it takes it up a level. The CEVs and OEVS are greatly heightened. I should note, I've tried 2c-c and 2c-d with mescaline/cactus, but I definitely prefer the "i".


Bardo5:


> I love this combo.
> 
> If you do end up attempting this I would recomend keeping the 2ci dose at around 10-15mg at the mescaline dose you provided. I find that a low-medium dose of 2ci compliments mescaline beautifully.


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## tregar

After studying all the different 5-HT receptor sites on wikipedia and at neruopharmacology sites, I discovered that 5-HT6 agonism (provided by 25i-nbome) also leads to activation of cAMP signalling pathways through adenylate cyclase stimulation, 5-HT6 agonism also stimulates pro-cognitive activities. This is similar to 5-HT7 stimulation provided by the mystically popular DMT, 5-MEO-DMT, and LSD. 5-HT7 receptor affinity stimulates cAMP activity and the reward system, seeming to be implicated in overall transcendent psychedelic action. The mystically popular Mescaline, psilocin & DMT have significant affinity for 5-HT1A receptors.

I'm almost ready to combine mescaline and 25i-nbome together, will be a couple weeks, just have to wait for my 4g fully cleaned mescaline in water pyrex dish to finish evaporating under fan. This way, I'll get the following hybrid trip affinity:

25i agonizes the following receptors [the lower the number, the greater the affinity]
5-HT2A (0.044), 5-HT2C (2), 5-HT6 (73), 5-HT2B (231), u opiate (82), kappa opiate [288]

Mescaline agonizes the following receptors [4.00 = maximum affinity, 0.00 = no affinity]:
Alpha2c (4.00), 5-HT2B (3.97), 5-HT1A (3.61) Imidazoline1 (3.44), 5-HT1E (3.16), alpha 2a (2.92) and very poorly agonizes 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C.

So in other words, 25i-nbome + mescaline looks like this as far as affinity agonism:

5-HT2A, Alpha2c, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT6, u opiate, kappa opiate, Imidazoline1, alpha2a.

Have a feeling the hybrid combination psychedelic will end up being just as profound, mystical and mind-manifesting as an acid trip.


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## Help?!?!

^Mescaline and 2c-I is an old favorite combo of mine. Visual candy mixed with mescaline's ultimate empathy was a pretty large win. I don't know why I never thought of that(honestly probably because no one has even made a comparison of 25I to 2c-i)combo before for comparison. I also don't know when i'll have a chance to try 25I and mescaline, probably within the coming months, but I am now more excited than ever.


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## tregar

Yes, now I recall reading a post of yours from the past with 2ci and mescaline, one of only 3 I could find, thanks for the glowing report Help?!?!.

Erny is the only one so far who has done a comparison of 2ci to 25i-nbome:

Erny:


> Question "Did you find this substance to be similar to 2C-I qualitatively?"
> 
> Somewhat. But more so to DOI in regard its CEV/OEV and LSD - in mindset.
> 
> NBOMe-2C-I was the first of them I have tried myself and the first one to appear on an illicit market here under the brand name "Solaris", late summer 2007. Currently this name refers to any NBOMe on a glycine tablet (a common cheap innocuous medicine for sublingual administration).
> 
> David's NBOMe-2C-I is a true gem. Basically it resembles PEAs, but is much like acid in some of it's effects, especially in the emotional area. It is full with the deep glowing LSD-like empathy that is uncommon within phenylethylamines.
> 
> The activity of bomamines in humans are sometimes inverted: NBOMe-2C-I requires 500-1000 mkg for a trip. When insufflated or injected i/m, they need a full hour to come up, even 1,5 hours in the case of NBOMe-2C-I.
> 
> NBOMe-2C-I seem a little like DOI and a little like LSD, NBOMe-2C-C seem a little like DOC and a little like DOI, NBOMe-2C-B - a little like DOB, NBOMe-2C-N seem a little like DON and a little like DMT if you wish to know that.
> 
> I do not get what is 2C-I and DOI nastiness you are talking about, I see those two as a remarkable visual experience and something that is easy on the mind (not paranoid, not frightening etc), but little else than that. One may also find there some good humour and an an opened, euphoric state of mind good for social tripping, reminiscent of empathogens or acid. This effect is barely noticeable in these two however, and not really reproducible, but is the one that shines to its full extent in NBOMe-2C-I and makes it very special.
> 
> NBOMe-2C-I is amasingly positive and is a clear empathogen in an LSD manner, i. e. somewhat deeper and feeling more natural than things like MDMA. An overflowing, exuberant joy, yet not as jittery as MDMA is. This state of mind is uncommon in PIHKAL phenylethylamines and is much closer to a good LSD trip.


----------



## Help?!?!

Ha I would like to read that post considering it must have been from a couple years ago. Its odd how I forgot 2c-I+Mescaline was such a gem, actually I remember its because I tried it in place of E which I thought would make a better combo with mescaline. Turned out the combo was rather grand and I ended up repeating it a few times.  Interesting to read Erny's comparison, to bad psychedelics are usually fairly variable compounds in people, though major outliers are obvious between reports(many people continue to keep comparing this to LSD, though everyone also compares DOC to LSD, maybe not as thoroughly though).


----------



## tregar

Help?!?!, I know this isn't much of a test run, but here it is anyways:

approximately 80 - 120 mg of purified light tan mescaline (threshold, not sure exactly how much was taken as it was the dried part that was scraped from the dish) taken at 7:00, at 1.5 hour later felt the empathy, increased brightness of surroundings, the "beautiful" nature of everything was heightened, feeling good & energetic....After-images stick around for about 5 seconds. then at 8:30, a 200ug threshold amount of HPBCD-complexed 25i-nbome applied to a 3/4" x 3/4" filter paper blotter square under tongue, held there for exactly 20 minutes.....so far at 10:00 the combination had absolutely zero adverse affects as expected...I find the combination phenomenal, mind-manifesting, highly empathetic & euphoric & mystical/spiritual. I'm really enjoying music at the moment and feel just incredible. It feels even better than acid, hard to explain. Higher dose to be tried weeks from now of each in dreams. This combination allready feels quite profound to me. I get goosebumps up and down my arms from the sheer power of the combination, it feels so orgasmic and mind-manifesting at the same time, words can not even begin to describe.I feel like a child walking on the beach for the first time.


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## six70

I will be trying 500ug 25i + 150mg MDMA combo in the next two weeks. I will let you all know how it goes


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## tregar

Trip report with 250mg of mescaline + 250ug of HPBCD complexed 25i-nbome.

Later in the night, (after the effects of a "test-dosage" of 80mg mescaline + 200ug of HPBCD complexed 25i-nbome had completely worn off some 6 hours later)....then boosted the mescaline dose to 250mg and added 250ug of HPBCD complexed 25i-nbome under tongue again for 20 minutes at 1am in the morning. ++++ experience, with this combined dosage lasting a full 8 hours, took 2 ben*dryls to finally fall asleep at 9 in the morning, eyes closed even this late in the morning, seeing Chinese dragons, complex machinery, just went on and on, one image after another.

The visuals unlike with 25i-nbome alone, made perfect sense when combined with mescaline, way more visually powerful than acid, with eyes closed saw brightly lit landscapes of un-imaginable beauty Japanese in origin, geometrics spinning in neon green, purple, blue, I felt like Shulgin had said in his mescaline entry in PIHKAL, nothing seemed more important than getting closer to God. Feel immense Love & peace and Joy and the visuals are second to none, indescribable beauty and complexity, mind space of acid + mescaline combined. No other psychedelics ever needed, this is the ultimate combination imho. I can't even begin to describe the open-eyed visuals, looking at just a rock caused me to see an ocean of things inside it. Heaphones on the whole time, music another world entirely. At one point, in my peripheral vision, the tv screen went from dull to bright and it was so dramatic it seemed as if another portal to a new dimension was opened. So much open-eyed "meaningful" visual activity going on I can't even begin to describe, so very very powerful. Layers of the self exposed like peeling an onion,  deep memories recalled. Absolutely no side effects, no nausea, no GI upset, no nothing, no rapid heart, in fact felt better than 25i-nbome alone. I felt a tiny hint of very faint nausea when the mescaline kicked in for a short while (10 to 15 minutes), that was it.

In my opinion, this is the only way to take 25i-nbome, along with mescaline, the experience being even more visual than 550ug of 25i-nbome alone...not only that but a guide becomes apparent for the trip, becomes just as "mind-manifesting" as acid with deep meaning and complexity, highly spiritual. It's the only way I will do it in the future.


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## jamaica0535

I have found 25c-NBOMe to feel pretty benign, I find myself in the occasional moment of thinking that my heart is beating faster only to check my pulse and realize that its not going at any rate to cause alarm. We have taken it past 1.5mg over the course of several hours.

Anyone care to give any source for this data that 4mg of 25i-nbome would kill a person? 

I thought the C was a gem of a compound, honestly one of my all time favorites.


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## Limitbreaker

Hey, I will be trying 25I with that dextrine soon. That'll be 1mg/5mg ratio for one blotter. Anyone had any sort, and can tell if I can divide it safely and get 0,5/2,5mg from half a blotter? What can I epxect? never tried nbomes before. How does dextrine affect 25I? Does it affect other nbomes too?


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## Mitchi

jamaica0535 said:


> I have found 25c-NBOMe to feel pretty benign, I find myself in the occasional moment of thinking that my heart is beating faster only to check my pulse and realize that its not going at any rate to cause alarm. We have taken it past 1.5mg over the course of several hours.
> 
> Anyone care to give any source for this data that 4mg of 25i-nbome would kill a person?
> 
> I thought the C was a gem of a compound, honestly one of my all time favorites.



I've read that tolerance builds up quickly. 

Was the following doses as potent as the 1. ?


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## IamMe90

jamaica0535 said:


> I have found 25c-NBOMe to feel pretty benign, I find myself in the occasional moment of thinking that my heart is beating faster only to check my pulse and realize that its not going at any rate to cause alarm. We have taken it past 1.5mg over the course of several hours.
> 
> Anyone care to give any source for this data that 4mg of 25i-nbome would kill a person?
> 
> I thought the C was a gem of a compound, honestly one of my all time favorites.



Who said that crock? I know people personally who have taken 4mg. I know someone who has taken 30mg of 25c... I HIGHLY doubt 4mg is going to kill ANYONE, let alone most people.


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## Addam

I believe that was a post by Erny. No reports/documentation to substantiate that claim though. 
We should likely still exercise caution with this one considering there hasn't been much ground covered.


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## IamMe90

I'm not saying it isn't advisable to tell people to be careful with their doses and to stick around the 1mg range, but it's clearly pretty bullshit to tell people that 4mg is going to kill people.


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## Addam

No, I feel you. His report had other seeming inaccuracies, enough to make me question the identity of the substance... FWIW


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## icekila

Where can I get Hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin in the UK, I searched every where. Any more detailed teks?


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## Vader

You can't ask for synthesis or source information, even for Febreze.


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## tryp2fun

IamMe90 said:


> I'm not saying it isn't advisable to tell people to be careful with their doses and to stick around the 1mg range, but it's clearly pretty bullshit to tell people that 4mg is going to kill people.



Why is it hard to believe that 4 mg taken all at once could be deadly?  When you have a compound which is active at 400 ug, 4 mg is 10 times the dose.  Do you think that 10 times the normal dose of 2C-E would not be dangerous?  If you consider a normal dose of 2C-E is 15-20 mg, then 10 times it is 150-200 mg.  That is within the range of doses thought to be associated with the recently reported deaths.  Certainly with bromo-dragonfly, which has a similar effective dosage, 4 mg is known to be pretty dangerous.


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## Vader

Apples and oranges. Even huge overdoses of benzodiazepines are not life-threatening (unless combined with another depressant). Of course, advising people not to overdo it is good HR.


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## tryp2fun

Vader said:


> Apples and oranges. Even huge overdoses of benzodiazepines are not life-threatening (unless combined with another depressant). Of course, advising people not to overdo it is good HR.



Exactly!  4 mg may not be the LD50, it may be the LD1 (only 1 in 100 will die), but that is still too dangerous IMO.  It only takes one death, even if due to recklessness, to get the attention of the law.


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## IamMe90

tryp2fun said:


> Why is it hard to believe that 4 mg taken all at once could be deadly?  When you have a compound which is active at 400 ug, 4 mg is 10 times the dose.  Do you think that 10 times the normal dose of 2C-E would not be dangerous?  If you consider a normal dose of 2C-E is 15-20 mg, then 10 times it is 150-200 mg.  That is within the range of doses thought to be associated with the recently reported deaths.  Certainly with bromo-dragonfly, which has a similar effective dosage, 4 mg is known to be pretty dangerous.



Because there is plenty of data consisting of trip reports all around the internet that indicates that 4mg would not be dangerous. Like I already said, advising people not to take 4mg is perfectly fine, but it is a rather unsubstantiated claim that it would kill most people, let alone some people.

And like Vader said, you're comparing apples to oranges - IIRC the nbomes are thought to have different pharmacology from classic PEAs like 2c-e. If you want to actually compare apples to apples, look at 25c, where someone overdosed on 30mg without dangerous physical effect. That indicates to me that 4mg of an equally potent substance would not be dangerous, let alone deadly in overdose. It would not suggest that I should do 4mg, though...


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## tryp2fun

Where is the data to show that the pharmacology of NBOMes is different than other phenethylamine psychedelics?  What is the scientific basis for that assumption that NBOMes have different pharmacology?  Has anyone compared animal toxicology of the 2C-Xs and 2C-NBOMes?  Or are you just guessing?  They bind to the same receptors and are metabolized by the same pathways, as far as we know.  We are collecting the human pharmacology data right now.  Do you want to be the one to discover the LD50?  Since this site is supposed to be for harm reduction, it would be wise to assume that the therapeutic index (LD50/ED50) of NBOMes is similar to other members of the phenethylamine psychedelics, until there is actual data showing something different.  There are already some pretty scary trip reports posted from just 1.5-2 mg of these compounds.  Just because someone survived 30 mg doesn't mean everyone can.8(


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## IamMe90

tryp2fun said:


> Where is the data to show that the pharmacology of NBOMes is different than other phenethylamine psychedelics?  What is the scientific basis for that assumption that NBOMes have different pharmacology?  Has anyone compared animal toxicology of the 2C-Xs and 2C-NBOMes?  Or are you just guessing?  They bind to the same receptors and are metabolized by the same pathways, as far as we know.  We are collecting the human pharmacology data right now.  Do you want to be the one to discover the LD50?  Since this site is supposed to be for harm reduction, it would be wise to assume that the therapeutic index (LD50/ED50) of NBOMes is similar to other members of the phenethylamine psychedelics, until there is actual data showing something different.  There are already some pretty scary trip reports posted from just 1.5-2 mg of these compounds.  Just because someone survived 30 mg doesn't mean everyone can.8(



It's just something I've seen tossed around on these boards, I shouldn't have really said that though given that I knew it wasn't a substantiated claim. 

But I haven't read anything really "scary" from 1.5-2mg of this compound, if you'd like to link me to something scary go ahead. I don't consider tachychardia worrying, especially when people have a penchant for exaggerating physical side effects of psychedelics in their altered mind states. 

It's all kind of beside though point though, because I've repeatedly said I don't recommend taking 4mg, I'm just saying it's a little extreme for someone to say "4mg of this chemical will kill you." IIRC, erny made that claim in a tone that suggested he was certain.

For comparison, we don't generally say "150mg of 2c-e will kill you." We tell people that it's an excessive dose and inadvisable. There is a difference.


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## tryp2fun

IamMe90 said:


> It's just something I've seen tossed around on these boards, I shouldn't have really said that though given that I knew it wasn't a substantiated claim.
> 
> But I haven't read anything really "scary" from 1.5-2mg of this compound, if you'd like to link me to something scary go ahead. I don't consider tachychardia worrying, especially when people have a penchant for exaggerating physical side effects of psychedelics in their altered mind states.
> 
> It's all kind of beside though point though, because I've repeatedly said I don't recommend taking 4mg, I'm just saying it's a little extreme for someone to say "4mg of this chemical will kill you." IIRC, erny made that claim in a tone that suggested he was certain.
> 
> For comparison, we don't generally say "150mg of 2c-e will kill you." We tell people that it's an excessive dose and inadvisable. There is a difference.



For a "scary" example, look at this report on Erowid:  https://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=88985

I agree that there have been lots of reports of people taking 100-150 mg 2C-E and surviving, so we thought that it had a high therapeutic index, until the deaths in Minnesota earlier this year.  So, I would say 4 mg of an NBOMe COULD, not will, kill you, and 150 mg 2C-E COULD kill you, we just don't know for sure.  I certainly agree with you that excessive doses like those are inadvisable and should be discouraged strongly.


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## Vader

> Where is the data to show that the pharmacology of NBOMes is different than other phenethylamine psychedelics?


IIRC the 2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine NBOMe analogues are less potent than the phenethylamine counterpart, when the primary amines have the opposite relationship.


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## Addam

Edit


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## tryp2fun

Addam said:


> I was under the impression that the Minnesota deaths were the result of mislabeled BDF? If I'm wrong I will gladly edit this post so as not to further perpetuate misinformation.



That was in Oklahoma.  The death (or deaths, can't remember how many) in Minnesota was supposed to be from 2C-E.  I've never seen any correction to that.


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## skillet

I can't find anything verifying that it was actually 2C-E, or anything about what happened to Timothy Lamere that might give a clue, was he ever sentenced?


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## tregar

This morning took 100mg of mescaline hcl, then 45 minutes later took another 100mg of mescaline hcl, then after the effects of both 200mg of mescaline hcl were felt working, a 50mg motion sickness pill taken along with 400ug of 25i-nbome under tongue, held there for 20 minutes. Ate a sandwich and chips with milk after the full affects of the mescaline felt as I didn't want to be tripping on low-blood sugar or completely empty stomach.

(3 to 4 hours into the trip).....this feels exactly as though I had taken 200ug of acid, in fact there is no way on earth I would be able to tell the two apart. 200mg of mescaline hcl + 400ug (micrograms) of 25i-nbome feels exactly the same as though I had taken 200ug of acid. The only difference is that I experienced no anxiety with the taking of mescaline and 25i-nbome, whereas I am certain I would have experienced quite a bit of anxiety with the 200ug of acid during the come-up period.

Visuals are exactly the same as had I taken 200ug of acid, mental state, everything completely alike. This trip has taken me far further than the trip taken days ago. Un-real cev and oev visuals, mind state exact same as acid.

You really want to be careful when combining these two as they potentiate each other to a remarkable degree. If you can handle a 200ug acid trip, then by all means try 200mg of mescaline hcl together with 400ug of 25i. No nausea, no un-remarkable stimulation, in fact my blood pressure is lower than it normally is. zero body load, zero side effects. 

At one point, 2 classic looking alien creatures morphed out of the bathroom tile brick and began imparting information to me, that kind of stuff, seriously "way out there." Closed eyes being shown how complex material things from ancient man's past were put together in stages, one by one, like a motion picture. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
taking a short break from psychedelics after this one, this trip has given me so much material to work with, it's gonna take me a long time to digest it all. Anyone who has been on a 200 microgram acid trip or more powerful will certainly understand where I'm coming from. This trip is so very profound in every sense of the word.


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## fmspank

Tregar question on your work on HPBCD-complexed nbome's, they are a great read by the way. If one has acquired hpbcd but the blotters were made a while back, would sprinkling the powder at an 8 to 1 ratio on the blotters work? Are would one have to magnetic stir hpbcd powder and alcohol at the same ratio and apply to blotters and re-dry. Thanks


----------



## tregar

Thanks fmspank. I would think that simply sprinkling on about 9 to 10 times of HPBCD to the drug on the blotter would work fine, then drop on some 95% etoh or vodka and let it dry completely, or you could simply add water and let it dry completely as well (this will take a bit longer to dry). 

p.s. 200 to 250mg mescaline hcl + 225ug of 25i-nbome feels indistinguishable from 175ug of acid to me. I feel that 25i-nbome is "incomplete" on it's own, but with mescaline becomes a whole nother ball game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 25i-nbome works the best when combined when mescaline, then it becomes fully "mind-manifesting", virtually indistinguishable from acid. 25i-nbome on it's own may be euphoric as "all get out" (more like an "en-fun-theogen") but it lacks spirituality and deep memory access, the higher traits of true psychedelics. The super strong visual power of 25i (due to it's strong 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C agonism) becomes fully archaic and meaningful when combined with mescaline, the two combined is a trip like no other, very similar in affinity receptor agonism as LSD....the two together achieving complete spiritual, full emotional & intellectual mind-manifesting balance.

For example, 200mg of mescaline hcl + 200ug of 25i-nbome feels like 150ug of acid...except even more visual, and with less anxiety. Keep your 25i-nbome dose LOW, as it is the most potent 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C receptor agonist ever discovered...only a little bit needs to be added to boost the 5-ht2A and 5-HT2c agonism to be modulated by the mescaline, over-doing the 25i-nbome dose will give you a trip like 200ug of acid or more, and that is way too strong for most people. It would be better to boost the mescaline to 250mg + 250ug of  25i-nbome to rise to the level of 175ug of acid.

....you want the receptor agonism to be balanced, you don't want the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonism of 25i to "over-ride" the mescaline's 5-HT2B, 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E agonism, look at Ray's study on LSD and you'll see that even LSD gives slightly higher preference to 5-HT1A over 5-HT2A/5-HT2C, keep things in balance.

My trip posted above of 200mg mescaline hcl + 400ug of 25i was way too heavy on the 25i, it should have been instead: 250mg of mescaline + 250ug of 25i, or 300mg of mescaline + 300ug of 25i...this would have resulted in a much overall better receptor agonism balance.


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## fmspank

I thank you for your quick response, I will try this and let you know how it works out. I also want to try this on a couple different nbome compounds that I have to see if absorption is enhanced. Finding mesclane hcl might be a challenge for me but thanks for the tip. Keep up the good work.


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## Smokey McPot

I posted this in the 25c-NBOMe thread but I figured I might as well ask here too


I just received 100 mg of 25c-NBOMe as well as 100 mg of 25i-NBOMe. The 25c seems to take up about 3 times as much space volumetrically then the 25i. Is this normal? Is the 25c usually big and fluffy compared to the 25i or could my vendor have screwed up? I'm not touching either till my mg scale arrives but both vials seem to be labeled pretty accurately with one saying 102mg and the other says 103~104mg which makes me think that the vendor has measured them quite accurately but I've learned not to rely that much on vendors when it comes to such powerful chemicals.


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## tregar

Took 250mg of just mescaline hcl the other day (50mg doses x 5 each spaced apart by 30 minutes to fully eliminate any nausea) I had no nausea and just sat outside and felt the wind blowing on me the whole time and watched as patterns and faces formed in the tree's and on the cracks in the sidewalk, I was in so much awe, I could have sat out there the whole trip it was so beautiful. I felt totally at peace, it was incredible. Mescaline to me doesn't even feel like I'm on a drug at all, just that I'm a kid again.

The time that I had taken 250mg mescaline hcl with the 250ug of 25i-nbome, I felt as if I had actually reached a transcendental state, it was just mind-blowing and peaceful, emotional, spiritual, completely mind-manifesting, & euphoric for hours. Walking around was so much fun, it felt like I was floating on air. And some of the best CEV's and OEV's I had ever seen in my life, visuals and visions that were completely meaningful, archaic, and music sounded the best on this combination that I have ever experienced in my over two decades of taking psychedelics. It was far more visually powerful than acid at just about any dose, by far mescaline + 25i-nbome is my favorite psychedelic, it becomes so much like acid when combined that I would be unable to tell the hybrid combination apart from actual acid, as expected from the 5-HT/alpha receptor profile that is generated:

25i agonizes the following receptors [the lower the number, the greater the affinity]
5-HT2A (0.044), 5-HT2C (2), 5-HT6 (73), 5-HT2B (231), u opiate (82), kappa opiate [288]

Mescaline agonizes the following receptors [4.00 = maximum affinity, 0.00 = no affinity]:
Alpha2c (4.00), 5-HT2B (3.97), 5-HT1A (3.61) Imidazoline1 (3.44), 5-HT1E (3.16), alpha 2a (2.92) and very poorly agonizes 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C.

So in other words, 25i-nbome + mescaline looks like this as far as affinity agonism:

5-HT2A, Alpha2c, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT6, u opiate, kappa opiate, Imidazoline1, alpha2a.

To compare with the affinity profile of LSD, view the wikipedia article of LSD, scroll down to the graph in the middle. For those that "can't find mescaline", it's very easy to extract, no need "to find it", it will find you if you simply extract. LSD also agonizes these additional 5-HT's: 5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, 5-HT5A, 5-HT5B, by the hybrid combination above not agonizing 5-HT5A & 5-HT5b, may actually be responsible for the zero to low anxiety, unlike LSD during the come-up at times. All of the "mystically popular" psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, mescaline agonize the 5-HT1A receptor, and the hybrid combination of 25i-nbome + mescaline. 25i-nbome also agonizes the 5-HT6 receptor (just like LSD) which may be responsible for "psychedelic transcendence" just like the 5-HT7 receptor as they both stimulate cAMP pathways & the reward system. Although there is an abundance of 5-HT1E receptors all over the brain, it is still to this day poorly understood what they do, although it is theorized they are responsible for accessing and forming memories.


----------



## Vader

> I just received 100 mg of 25c-NBOMe as well as 100 mg of 25i-NBOMe. The 25c seems to take up about 3 times as much space volumetrically then the 25i. Is this normal? Is the 25c usually big and fluffy compared to the 25i or could my vendor have screwed up? I'm not touching either till my mg scale arrives but both vials seem to be labeled pretty accurately with one saying 102mg and the other says 103~104mg which makes me think that the vendor has measured them quite accurately but I've learned not to rely that much on vendors when it comes to such powerful chemicals.


No experience with the NBOMes, but the 2C-I I've seen is much, much denser than 2C-C I've seen, probably about the 3x that you're talking about.


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## Erny

IamMe90 said:


> I'm not saying it isn't advisable to tell people to be careful with their doses and to stick around the 1mg range, but it's clearly pretty bullshit to tell people that 4mg is going to kill people.


Bluelight is so bluelight. 

Let me remind you what was that statement based upon. There was a man who, after taking 4 mg of 2C-B-NBOMe (yes, not 2C-I-NBOMe) was taken to hospital by ambulance unconscious. While already at the hospital, he stopped breathing several times. It is only due to medical intervention that he still lives. That was three years ago.

30 mgs of that same 2C-B-NBOMe didn't kill me, but 4 mgs may kill you if you're unlucky to be as sensitive as that person.

But do not doubt your cause. Go forth, take more, perhaps you are immortal. Whatever is the outcome, your case will increase our knowledge.


----------



## Addam

Hmm. Very interesting reaction. 
What do you think causes this/these substances to have such a differing therapeutic ratio from individual to individual? Was this person's sensitivity NBOMe specific or did he/she also have a sensitivity to other psychedelics?
Do you think something like this is comparable to how something like, say, 5-TOM has such a widely differing dose/response in different individuals, just having to do with metabolism?
Interested in your thoughts here. Either way, the advice still stands to tread carefully with these until one's specific reaction to them is established.


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## MattPsy

Erny said:


> Bluelight is so bluelight.
> [snip]
> But do not doubt your cause. Go forth, take more, perhaps you are immortal. Whatever is the outcome, your case will increase our knowledge.



Haha  . /shared frustration


----------



## tregar

She took 200mg of mescaline hcl and 350ug of HPBCD complexed 25i-nbome under tongue for 20 minutes, and is having the time of her life, really enjoying it. I took the same, it feels like a 175ug acid trip to me, but alot more pleasurable, wild visuals as well, music sounds the best I've ever heard it.

This is the first time she hasn't gotten any nausea from mescaline hcl, she took it in 50mg doses, every 1/2 hour, she got zero nausea. same for me as well, no nausea at all, not even a hint.

She agrees that the combination 100% feels indistinguishable from acid. She said the trip "is fully mind-manifesting" with the combination of the two. Visuals are out of this world for me. She also said the visuals are just like those of acid visuals, she is having lots of visual activity, same here, the combination is the "cream de la creame" of the psychedelic world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I kept a log of the time line for that night:

4:30pm both ate a meal of plain steak/potatoe(no toppings)/corn

6:00pm both of us took 50mg mescaline
6:30pm both of us took 50mg mescaline
7:00pm both of us took 50mg mescaline
7:30pm both of us took 50mg mescaline (200mg total)

7:30pm both of us placed 350ug (mics) of HPBCD complexed 25i-nbome under tongue, held there for 20 minutes, kept saliva/spit in for 10 minutes, then swallowed, but still kept filter paper blotter of 25i-nbome under tongue for full 20minutes, then disposed of paper.

Mescaline was felt coming on first, then the 25i-nbome was felt coming at about 1 hour after placing under tongue.

In the future we will take the 25i-nbome about halfway thru taking the mescaline hcl pills, that way both entheogens will end up coming on at about the same exact time. You can take 50mg mescaline pills (or even 75mg pills) every 1/2 hour, as there is little tolerance to the effects of mescaline, even 1 to 2 hours later, the doses of mescaline have 90% effectiveness of the 1st dose of mescaline you took, you can't do this with LSD or tryptamines.

We were feeling full effects from both substances at 9pm. The peak strong effects of the trip lasted until about 3am in the morning, we were both still lightly tripping till 6am in the morning, we could not sleep, so we both took 1 and 1/2 benadryl, which quickly knocked us both out, we slept a good 6 hours.

We woke up completely refreshed, no headache at all, we both felt a powerful afterglow and had energy to go about cleaning the place, working outside, etc. The normal way you feel after acid or mescaline. No hangover at all.

In short, when you combine both substances, the trip is about the same length as an acid or mescaline trip. We LOVE long trips, we want to enjoy and trip out for as long as possible all night long.

** She has taken 25i-nbome "on it's own" several times in the past, as have I, and we have noticed that it is lacking spiritually, the trip is too short (only lasting 6 hours max with only 4 hours of visuals.)During the trip she referred to 25i-nbome on it's own as "fake Japanese acid" cause it lacks the full mind-manifesting effects of real acid. I would have to agree with her statement.

** when both substances are combined the 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E and 5-HT2B activity of the mescaline "modulates" the powerful visual activity of 25i-nbome (highest ever discovered affinity for 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C, which is responsible for most visual activity and complex behaviors) so that the visuals & thoughts become "meaningful" like real LSD or mescaline visuals. That night, we saw actual archaic/Mayan/complex imagery all over the carpet and walls, even at 5am in the morning, when I closed me eyes, I was still seeing colorful grids and geometric images. The closed and OEV visuals are far more powerful than what you see on acid, and music sounds better than it even dose on acid alone

*** I watched as an actress on my monitor's screensaver morphed and changed into 4 completely different women over a minute's span, normally I would need to take 200ug of acid for this same visual effect.

...you have the exact same GREAT sense of humor as you do on acid, we watched several movies and laughed our butts off and even a scary movie which we were fully engrosed in. It was magnificient. Walking into other rooms, we would psychedelic film of all types of imagery that made sense form all over the place, it was absolutely beautiful, I had a hard time tearing myself away from music as it was the best I'd ever heard it. Believe it or not, but we love the combination even more than acid, it feels even more pleasurable, and colors can be seen we had never seen before on acid. She kept remarking how it would be impossible to tell the hybrid combination apart from acid, I said the same...it was so identical in every way. We said this several times throughout the night, there is really no way I'd be able to differentiate.

25i agonizes the following receptors [the lower the number, the greater the affinity]
5-HT2A (0.044), 5-HT2C (2), 5-HT6 (73), 5-HT2B (231), u opiate (82), kappa opiate [288]

mescaline agonizes the following receptors [4.00 = maximum affinity, 0.00 = no affinity]:
Alpha2c (4.00), 5-HT2B (3.97), 5-HT1A (3.61) Imidazoline1 (3.44), 5-HT1E (3.16), alpha 2a (2.92) and poorly agonizes 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C.

So in other words, 25i-nbome + mescaline looks like this as far as affinity agonism:

5-HT2A, Alpha2c, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT6, u opiate, kappa opiate, Imidazoline1, alpha2a.

If you want you can go to wikipedia article on "LSD" and scroll down to the middle affinity bar graph, then compare LSD with the above hybrid combination, it is quite similar, and explains so much why the hybrid combination can not be differentiated from an acid trip by either of us.


----------



## IamMe90

Erny said:


> Bluelight is so bluelight.
> 
> Let me remind you what was that statement based upon. There was a man who, after taking 4 mg of 2C-B-NBOMe (yes, not 2C-I-NBOMe) was taken to hospital by ambulance unconscious. While already at the hospital, he stopped breathing several times. It is only due to medical intervention that he still lives. That was three years ago.
> 
> 30 mgs of that same 2C-B-NBOMe didn't kill me, but 4 mgs may kill you if you're unlucky to be as sensitive as that person.
> 
> But do not doubt your cause. Go forth, take more, perhaps you are immortal. Whatever is the outcome, your case will increase our knowledge.



8) 

Edit: Let me clarify. It is clear that you didn't actually _read_ any of my posts. I certainly didn't claim to be immortal, nor did I recommend _anyone_ take 4mg of this substance, let alone myself. Your condescension is amusing, though, and reeks of insecurity.


----------



## Erny

Addam said:


> What do you think causes this/these substances to have such a differing therapeutic ratio from individual to individual?


I honestly do not want to make any assumptions. There was a high sensitivity in some cases of these overdoses, but I have no data and/or can't get it about all of them.



IamMe90 said:


> 8)Edit: Let me clarify. It is clear that you didn't actually _read_ any of my posts. I certainly didn't claim to be immortal, nor did I recommend _anyone_ take 4mg of this substance, let alone myself.


No, you did not. It seems to me that you have never read mine. IamMe90, please, read this first. It doesn't matter how numerous are these people. It only matters that they do exist. Be it even one person per ten thousand (I believe there are actually more of them though), as soon as the number of users reaches statistically valid numbers, there will be accidents. It is not even about people, it is about numbers. Do you understand me?

Now it looks as if by writing here about people whom you know to take 4 or 30 mgs, and who didn't died then, as if it was totally safe, you wish to speed up that process. I perfectly understand there is not idea behind your actions though. Do not bother - they will be able to do it without your aid. And, as I have already said, if you are certain this is safe, you and your friends are most welcome to experiment with super-high dosages further. With some luck, this may finally provide us with valuable data.


----------



## tregar

Erny, I just wanted to say a huge "thank you" for your remarkable research on nbome's and past posts, if it weren't for reading several of your old posts, we would never have discovered the remarkable combination we now love dearly (25i-nbome + mescaline).


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## tregar

Here is my theory on agonism based on Kent's book and my own research:

5-HT2A = responsible for high visual activity & complex behaviors as well. (stimulating & raises blood pressure slightly)
5-HT2C = responsible for high visual activity & complex behaviors as well. (stimulating)
5-HT2B = responsible for entactogenic and sensual effects (stimulating)
5-HT1A = responsible for mystical & spiritual insights, calming & serene (inhibitory & modulates the visual activity of 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C to make it archaic and meaningful, also lowers blood pressure) key to the "antipodes" of the mind.
5-HT1E = responsible for forming memories and accessing deep memories
5-HT6 & 5-HT7 = responsible for psychedelic transcendence & enhanced cognitive abilities.
alpha 2C & 2A = effective at stimulating serotonin production, cardiovascular activity, and actue sensuality.
kappa opioid receptor = mediate tactile sensory pathways, mediate pain, gravity awareness, and orientation sensation.

All of the above receptors are hit when mescaline is combined with 25i-nbome creating an absolutely amazing trip indistinguishable from acid except for some added benefits: music sounds even better than it does on acid, more "colorful" than acid (hundreds of shades of color can be seen), far more visual than acid, less anxiety, and more pleasurable.


----------



## SpecialK_

Alright so I have experimented with 25c and had great results. Can anyone highlight a rough comparison between these two chemicals as I have seen 25i grow in popularity lately.


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## ungelesene_bettlek

tregar said:


> kappa opioid receptor = mediate tactile sensory pathways, mediate pain, gravity awareness, and orientation sensation.
> 
> All of the above receptors are hit when mescaline is combined with 25i-nbome


which of the two compounds hits the kappa opioid receptor?


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## tregar

25i does, but it is only with a value of 288 which is about "barely perceptable".

25i agonizes the following receptors [the lower the number, the greater the affinity]
5-HT2A (0.044), 5-HT2C (2), 5-HT6 (73), 5-HT2B (231), u opiate (82), kappa opiate [288]

Mescaline agonizes the following receptors [4.00 = maximum affinity, 0.00 = no affinity]:
Alpha2c (4.00), 5-HT2B (3.97), 5-HT1A (3.61) Imidazoline1 (3.44), 5-HT1E (3.16), alpha 2a (2.92) and poorly agonizes 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C, although I tend to disagree with this last part, as study might be flawed.

So in other words, 25i-nbome + mescaline looks like this as far as affinity agonism:

5-HT2A, Alpha2c, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT6, u opiate, kappa opiate, Imidazoline1, alpha2a.


----------



## Help?!?!

tregar said:


> Mescaline agonizes the following receptors [4.00 = maximum affinity, 0.00 = no affinity]:
> Alpha2c (4.00), 5-HT2B (3.97), 5-HT1A (3.61) Imidazoline1 (3.44), 5-HT1E (3.16), alpha 2a (2.92) and poorly agonizes 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C, although I tend to disagree with this last part, as study might be flawed.


I must assume you believe it to be flawed because you receive 5HT1a effects at least somewhat correct? I remember visuals having to be a large proponent which I fully agree with as my HCl high dose experiences where extremely visual. Rivaling LSD's visuals quite easily though obviously in a different manner.


----------



## jamaica0535

tregar said:


> Have a feeling the hybrid combination psychedelic will end up being just as profound, mystical and mind-manifesting as an acid trip.



Give me your thoughts in 25i-NBMD.





Now what happens when you expand the methylenedioxy group into forms that are more elaborate? Its supposed to be pretty potent.

I don't know if its possible, but I wonder what would happen if the n-benzyl bonding was moved by 2 positions into something a little more reminiscent of MDMA
25x-NBMDMA theoretically possible?


----------



## Limitbreaker

25I-NBMD has been already posted on one non-english blog. Claims it doesn't make up any of MDMA effects, but music feels _very_ good.


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## psood0nym

Help?!?! said:


> I must assume you believe it to be flawed because you receive 5HT1a effects at least somewhat correct? I remember visuals having to be a large proponent which I fully agree with as my HCl high dose experiences where extremely visual. Rivaling LSD's visuals quite easily though obviously in a different manner.


I think he assumes it to be flawed because of a link provided earlier in this thread to an ADD discussion where the technical merits of Ray's (2010) paper are called into question (as such, all affinity information in that paper that isn't corroborated by established literature should likewise be held as suspect).


----------



## MattPsy

25I-NBMD is very similar to regular 25I, with testers commenting it was just as good as 25I, if not better.
Pharmacologically-wise, it is of almost identical affinity and efficacy at h5-HT2A and 2C, but significantly greater affinity at h5-HT1A, though probably still not at a level where it would be easily perceptible. Combination of it and a tryptamine (because they generally have a much higher 1A affinity) would very likely be spectacular. I'd wanna try it with say, 5-MeO-MiPT, or 4-AcO-DiPT. Or DPT  . (daring!)


----------



## psood0nym

MattPsy said:


> 25I-NBMD is very similar to regular 25I, with testers commenting it was just as good as 25I, if not better.
> Pharmacologically-wise, it is of almost identical affinity and efficacy at h5-HT2A and 2C, but significantly greater affinity at h5-HT1A, though probably still not at a level where it would be easily perceptible. Combination of it and a tryptamine (because they generally have a much higher 1A affinity) would very likely be spectacular. I'd wanna try it with say, 5-MeO-MiPT, or 4-AcO-DiPT. Or DPT  . (daring!)


Yes, DPT is the combination I've been contemplating from the beginning of this discussion.


----------



## atara

Smokey McPot said:


> I posted this in the 25c-NBOMe thread but I figured I might as well ask here too
> 
> 
> I just received 100 mg of 25c-NBOMe as well as 100 mg of 25i-NBOMe. The 25c seems to take up about 3 times as much space volumetrically then the 25i. Is this normal?



It is to be expected, yes. Iodine is a heavy atom, so compounds which contain it are dense. This means that eyeballing iodine-containing compounds is especially dangerous.


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## tregar

I just found it difficult to believe that Ray's study found zero affinity of mescaline for 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors, might have something to do with the large amounts of mescaline needed for potency, have no idea, although in the paper he states that they took equivalent potency values into consideration, and compensated for that, whatever the case, mescaline + 25i-nbome is our favorite psychedelic now, love it even more than acid, just as much fun & deep. An extraction on 1kg of really good tricho skins gives about 12 grams of mescaline...combined with 25i, a trip is only pennies compared to the expense of an equivalent 175ug acid trip.


----------



## Help?!?!

psood0nym said:


> Yes, DPT is the combination I've been contemplating from the beginning of this discussion.


I know its not 25I but I combined 25C with a bit of DPT(probably didn't insufflate more than 250 mgs and was over a couple hours). Was a very nice combo. Very plush, colorful, and with that simple Dimethyl simple tryp euphoria(probably stated that wrong but 300 mgs of hash will do that to ya!). Tregar still hoping on that trip soon. Is LSD your favorite, just to gauge how much you enjoyed the combo(LSD is mine so your making me excited)?


----------



## MattPsy

Yep, stated that wrong  if you said dialkyl it'd have been correct. You had a diPROPYL tryptamine! (not that it really matters, of course, it was still intelligible)


----------



## Help?!?!

MattPsy said:


> Yep, stated that wrong  if you said dialkyl it'd have been correct. You had a diPROPYL tryptamine! (not that it really matters, of course, it was still intelligible)


Lol well it serves me right for consuming hash which makes me lazy and confused. I should have said that simple Di tryp euphoria which is what I meant but is still probably a bit off, though only to certain peoples senses anyways.


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

Having trouble acquiring HPBCD.  Could I just dissolve this in olive oil?


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## skillet

Maybe if you have the freebase, I can't imagine that being very effective though. Snort or plug it?


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## tregar

Help?!?! nice report on the 25C with a bit of DPT !! glad to hear it was plush, colorful, and euphoric! Yes, LSD has always been my favorite, so you can imagine my excitement when 25i + mescaline turned out to be way beyond my expectations.


----------



## Help?!?!

Thanks, I wish it wasn't as long ago as it was so I could be more indepth about it but alas it took place in July so serious details allude me. Definitely a noteworthy combo. Exciting to hear you value LSD so highly, makes me excited to finally procure 25I and research it a few times then unite it will some Mesc. Truly looking forward to it.


----------



## jamaica0535

So is there a general positive tone around the 25i?

Maybe it was just a bad sample, or my body just not being into it....

But 500ug was very very light, 1mg felt like overdose. Violent vomiting, rise in body temp, shaking all over.


----------



## tregar

I've never gotten any nausea, rise in body temp or any shaking, zero side effects, noticed a rise in pulse for a while in the beginning, that is about it. all doses were with HPBCD complexed 550ug of 25i or less under tongue for 20 minutes, very strong trip at 550ug by the way, would never want to exceed 600ug of HPBCD complexed material. 

25i-nbome shares much of the mindspace of acid (euphoric, entheogenic) but has the visuals of DOI, when however 25i-nbome is combined with mescaline, the trip then becomes nearly indistibuishable from acid in every way (same meaningful archaic/mystical visuals), more visual than acid however, more pleasurable than acid, and music sounds even better than it does on acid, a few added benefits over acid, perhaps slightly more mystical as well, it lacks absolutely nothing, fully mind-manifesting. 100ug to 350ug of HPBCD complexed material under tongue for 20 minutes = light trip. When combining with 200 to 250mg of mescaline hcl, be sure to keep the 25i-nbome HPBCD complexed material at 350ug or so, you do not want the 5-ht2a & 5-h2c of the 25i-nbome to overpower the 5-ht1a and 5-ht1e of the mescaline, keep the receptors in balance if you want a beautiful very acid like experience, do not exceed 350ug of 25i-nbome, or the experience will become "too electric" and "too analytical", keep things in balance.

All of the great natural psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, dmt, etc. place 5-HT1A & 5-HT1E, 5-HT6 & 5-HT7 receptor agonism strength well ahead of 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C visual/complex behavior agonism, this keeps the trip spiritual, mystical, euphoric, serene, mind-manifesting and well-balanced. If you notice, most/many of the synthetics lack strong 5-HT1A & 5-HT1E agonism, which is why many of them can seem very "empty" and "emotionally neutral" or not fully mind-manifesting. Take a look at Ray's paper above attached and you'll see what I mean. You do not want 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C agonism to overide 5-HT1 agonism, unless you want a trip that is mostly meaningless visuals with little meaning to them. Keep the receptors in balance, study the paper, and you'll understand in time.


----------



## jamaica0535

I find 25c to be a favorite. 

Its possible that the batch was off, or I just took it too far. 

Will explore this one a little more.

25c out-competes DMT in the brain, potent partial agonist for 5-HT2A, and I smoked more than enough to break through, and had some minor CEV.  That much usually throws me into another world. Got up after laying there a few minutes to smoke a cigarette.

I really like the action of 25c, Its not forceful or visually overbearing. Its light, nice, and the little push is generally into a productive clear head-space that allows for great conversation. Feels almost nootropic.


----------



## Limitbreaker

Would 0,5mg of 25I with 3mg of HPBCD be "just perfect" dose for psychedelic first timer? I don't mean me there, but my friend. I aim not to daunt him to psychedelics, would the trip be at the same time shiny and somewhat psychedelic, deep?


----------



## TheAzo

Limitbreaker said:


> Would 0,5mg of 25I with 3mg of HPBCD be "just perfect" dose for psychedelic first timer? I don't mean me there, but my friend. I aim not to daunt him to psychedelics, would the trip be at the same time shiny and somewhat psychedelic, deep?



There's someone 2 posts above you saying that 550ug was a strong trip - so at least some people find doses around 0.5mg to be strong - so for a first trip, i'd go lower than that. 

Also, for a first trip, i'd use 25C, or better still, a more traditional psychedelic.


----------



## TheAzo

jamaica0535 said:


> So is there a general positive tone around the 25i?
> 
> Maybe it was just a bad sample, or my body just not being into it....
> 
> But 500ug was very very light, 1mg felt like overdose. Violent vomiting, rise in body temp, shaking all over.



Is it possible that something went wrong with the 500ug dose - what ROA was used? I know that people have reported that sublingual use of NBOMe's somewhat unreliable... 




Limitbreaker said:


> Would 0,5mg of 25I with 3mg of HPBCD be "just perfect" dose for psychedelic first timer? I don't mean me there, but my friend. I aim not to daunt him to psychedelics, would the trip be at the same time shiny and somewhat psychedelic, deep?



There's at least one person reporting 550ug to be a strong trip - so at least some people find doses around 0.5mg to be strong - so for a first experiment with it, i'd go lower than that. 250ug maybe? 

Also, for someone's first trip, I would not use any of the NBOMe's, i'd use a traditional psychedelic. 
25C-NBOMe certainly feels very different, and it sounds like that's the case for 25I-NBOMe as well.


----------



## Limitbreaker

Yeah, traditional psychedelic. I guess you're right on this one. I'll go for a tryptamine then, 4-AcO-DMT it is.

I had doubts about PEAs being possibly viable candidates for first time psychedelics. I've tried both PEAs and Ts but I know a person who has only tried 25C&D so far and doesn't want to try Ts "because they're more expensive". I feel SO sorry for him.


----------



## Limitbreaker

Yeah, traditional psychedelic. I guess you're right on this one. I'll go for a tryptamine then, 4-AcO-DMT it is.

I had doubts about PEAs being possibly viable candidates for first time psychedelics. I've tried both PEAs and Ts but I know a person who has only tried 25C&D so far and doesn't want to try Ts "because they're more expensive". I feel SO sorry for him.

sry for double post del


----------



## tregar

been searching for many many years for something that would fully replace acid, finally found it, a divine inspiration, had nothing to do with me, just thankful my prayers were finally answered.

since having several of these combination hybrid trips (mescaline + 25i), have started working out again, just had an upper body workout yesterday and a full lower body workout today. taking up reading the Bible alot more, given up alot of un-healthy things, eating better (steaming vegetables and eating with lean protein) started walking my dog alot more, spending more time in nature, the trips have been so much fun, insightful and inspirational in many ways, they have taught me alot.


----------



## tregar

550ug of 25i-nbome complexed to 3mg of HPBCD is correct, it was a bit much for her during the comeup, but after the 1.5 hour come-up, she fully enjoyed herself, the trip is only 6 hours long with about 4 hours of strong visuals....it was in her description too "in your face" for her during the come-up due to the lack of 5-HT1A inhibition to "calm" the trip or make it "more serene", you can correct for this fact by using 25i-nbome with mescaline, which fully supplies 5-ht1A and 5-ht1e agonism, I would consider 550ug for me (complexed to HPBCD and held under tongue for 20minutes) to be a "moderate dose" to "strong dose" with lots of visual activity and euphoria/shares much of the mind-space of acid. If you can, combine 350ug of it with about 200 to 250mg of mescaline hcl, for a fully mind-manifesting trip that is mind-blowing, incredibly visual & pleasurable, with music sounding the best you are ever likely to hear it ever, not to mention very spiritual and has a very much larger than life and expanded visual field with all sorts of meaningful visual activity to match your thoughts.

The benefit that 25i has over 25c, is that it shares much of the mindspace of acid, whereas 25c shares much of the mindspace of DOC instead, visually they are about equal, 25i has visuals like DOI while 25c has visuals like DOC, now however when you combine 25i with mescaline, the mescaline due to it's 5-ht1a and 5-ht1e agonism, "modulates" the high visual activity of the 25i to change the visuals into meaningful archaic imagery that spans all of history and the antipodes of the mind, really far out visuals with mystical and spiritual significance.


----------



## TheAzo

Limitbreaker said:


> Yeah, traditional psychedelic. I guess you're right on this one. I'll go for a tryptamine then, 4-AcO-DMT it is.
> 
> I had doubts about PEAs being possibly viable candidates for first time psychedelics. I've tried both PEAs and Ts but I know a person who has only tried 25C&D so far and doesn't want to try Ts "because they're more expensive". I feel SO sorry for him.


4-AcO-DMT sounds like a much better first trip.
PEA's are definitely a suitable first trip; but not NBOMe PEA's, at least if my experience of 25C-NBOMe vs 2C-C is any guide. It doesn't really give as complete an experience, i'd say. 
I feel sorry for your friend too - you say he's only tried 25C and 25D - by that do you mean the NBOMe's? If so, he not only ought to try tryptamines, he ought to try normal PEAs too. They're a qualitatively different experience, and the cost per dose is ridiculously low anyway... 



tregar said:


> 550ug of 25i-nbome complexed to 3mg of HPBCD is correct, it was a bit much for her during the comeup, but after the 1.5 hour come-up, she fully enjoyed herself, the trip is only 6 hours long with about 4 hours of strong visuals....it was in her description too "in your face" for her during the come-up due to the lack of 5-HT1A inhibition to "calm" the trip or make it "more serene", you can correct for this fact by using 25i-nbome with mescaline, which fully supplies 5-ht1A and 5-ht1e agonism, I would consider 550ug for me (complexed to HPBCD and held under tongue for 20minutes) to be a "moderate dose" to "strong dose" with lots of visual activity and euphoria/shares much of the mind-space of acid. If you can, combine 350ug of it with about 200 to 250mg of mescaline hcl, for a fully mind-manifesting trip that is mind-blowing, incredibly visual & pleasurable, with music sounding the best you are ever likely to hear it ever, not to mention very spiritual and has a very much larger than life and expanded visual field with all sorts of meaningful visual activity to match your thoughts.
> 
> The benefit that 25i has over 25c, is that it shares much of the mindspace of acid, whereas 25c shares much of the mindspace of DOC instead, visually they are about equal, 25i has visuals like DOI while 25c has visuals like DOC, now however when you combine 25i with mescaline, the mescaline due to it's 5-ht1a and 5-ht1e agonism, "modulates" the high visual activity of the 25i to change the visuals into meaningful archaic imagery that spans all of history and the antipodes of the mind, really far out visuals with mystical and spiritual significance.



Tregar, are you aware of any other psychedelics that provide (or might provide) the same benefits in combination as mescaline does? Mescaline is exorbitantly expensive (at least for most of us here), and either very hard to find (for synthetic stuff), or packaged in disgusting cactus slime. For me, at least, a trip on 25I-NBOMe + 200mg mescaline (assuming the 25I-NBOMe was free) would cost more than a decent dose of LSD...


----------



## Limitbreaker

Yeah, the NBOMes. I hope he'll change his mind, someday. 

Thanks Tregar for the experience report, I really appreciate it as I plan to try similar HPBCD & 25I dosage.


----------



## psood0nym

TheAzo said:


> Tregar, are you aware of any other psychedelics that provide (or might provide) the same benefits in combination as mescaline does? Mescaline is exorbitantly expensive (at least for most of us here), and either very hard to find (for synthetic stuff), or packaged in disgusting cactus slime. For me, at least, a trip on 25I-NBOMe + 200mg mescaline (assuming the 25I-NBOMe was free) would cost more than a decent dose of LSD...


I'm pretty certain he is not just using mescaline, but, if my memory serves, rather an extract of numerous alkaloids from Pervian Torch (correct me if I'm wrong, Tregar). From what I've read, these Trichocereus cacti contain "mescaline and its derivatives and other phenethylamine derivatives." Certainly there's more active (and interactive) in an peruvianus extract than just mescaline that's contributing to the combination, but to what degree is uncertain. You can do an extract, too, obviously. It sounds like more of a hassle than pulling DMT, but not that much more. I've also seen people posting about TMA-6 lately. That might make a good substitute for mescaline if you're set on that route.


----------



## axaith

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/591561-(25i-NBOMe-1mg)-Short-but-interesting

My first experiment with 25i-NBOMe.  Like jamaica0535 reported, I had vomiting and shaking and a general uneasiness during the comeup.  Wasn't expecting this after reading this thread.


----------



## champ

how long does this take to come on fully? some people are saying it is fast and others are saying like an hour? 
Is there a consensus? 

I am asking because I am wondering how long to wait before adding a bit more to the dose/redosing if I am not getting where I want to be.

at the beginning of this thread CaptainAmerica said it took over an hour, other have said up to an hour and a half. Does anyone disagree with this?


----------



## Erny

Like simple 2C-I it slowly builds up during 2,5 hours, then slowly fades off without any actual plateau. This is best seen in highest dosages, like what was described here. In moderate doses it may seem as if it is just an hour or 1,5, again like in plain 2C-I. I am talking about intranasal route of administration for 2C-I-NBOMe and oral - for 2C-I. Never used it i/m, but it should be same for sublingual ROA.


----------



## Erny

axaith said:


> http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/591561-(25i-NBOMe-1mg)-Short-but-interesting
> 
> My first experiment with 25i-NBOMe.  Like jamaica0535 reported, I had vomiting and shaking and a general uneasiness during the comeup.  Wasn't expecting this after reading this thread.


And yes, there are also people who react this way. They often react this same way to anything else that is NBOMe- too. Same as with any psychedelic - individual reactions are always diverse.


----------



## Addam

IM has a rapid come-up. I'm talking just a few minutes. Effects were felt within 2-3 minutes. Visuals were quite strong by 4-5 minutes in. Pretty rapid effect for an IM injection, although I get that with DPT as well.


----------



## Solipsis

As I understand it 25B and 25N have qualities that could make them undesirable in this same fashion of having potential for making people uncomfortable. I'm not sure about the dynamics, instead I would welcome more suggestions about what it is that may make some of them feel better and others more difficult.
But right now I'm interested in comparisons between 25B, 25I and 25N, anyone?
25C and 25D sound like they are more or less smooth or at least acceptable. 25iP and 25T4 seem much too rare to make much sense of them and I also still cannot get a grip on 25E.

If this really gets too much into comparison territory of course discussion will be moved appropriately to the other thread. For now I'm okay with departing from the effects 25I may have in relation to other analogues.

Erny, any ideas about the body effects of those NBOMe's and how there may be a pattern there similar to the profiles of the 2C-X derivatives?


----------



## champ

Thanks for the reply Erny 

Preliminary assessment with one 500 ug blotter that had been complexed, held bucally for about a half hour:

It took over an hour to come on fully, felt alerts within 20 minutes. Some initial nausea, physical tremors, hot and cold flashes, a bit of nystagmus perhaps. I got a headache during the last quarter of the trip but advil took care of it. Muscle tension throughout but not nearly as bad as 2ci or even acid.

For me this was pretty physical in general, sort of rushy and it definitely felt like the 2c class of phenethylamines but was somehow cleaner, sharper, I would say a bit more on the amphetamine tip. Nothing like DOC which I hate, it was much more chill and relaxed than that. Not pushy.
Mentally: very little mindfuck, some euphoria, tons of laughter, easy socialization. Almost no visual activity with eyes closed or open, visual perception was altered with color enhancement, walls breathing, etc but no patterning or anything complicated.
I could see this being good at a party, for dancing.
I will definitely up the dosage to two blotters next time, was left wanting a bit more out of the experience. 

Took it about 11 hours ago and still feel somewhat awake...not cracky though.

Overall about a ++ on the Shulgin scale but I have a very positive impression of this molecule, the good outweighed the bad favorably and I think it improved on some of what I don't like about the 2c compounds, body load was way less severe, imo. Not sure I would trade 2ce or 2cp in for this one though.


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## PsychedelicDoctor

*vasoconstriction*

Has anyone experienced any troubling vasoconstriction with 25i-NBOMe?  

My experiences with DOC as well as Bromo-Dragonfly left me with numb/tingling extremities and buttocks for the duration of the experience and totally turned me off to them and others in their classes.  Never experienced this on a 2C-X though.  

I was wondering if anyone has had anything like this happen? I'm considering investing in this . . . it sounds almost too good to be true.  Vasoconstriction would totally ruin it though!


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## tregar

had another trip in dreams with 250mg mescaline hcl and 375ug of HPBCD complexed 25i (held under tongue for 20 minutes) the other night and it was just incredible, blows acid away imho, no better psychedelic combo. Female took the exact same amount of each in dreams and was also beyond impressed. I don't see any need to every waste time, resources, and energy pursuing other psychedelic substances, this IS the ultimate, there I've said it, and mean it. It blows acid away because you get all the same effects that acid would give you, except you feel so darn pleasurable at the same time, like also being on a fully psychedelic version of E along with all the acid trippiness. Acid only wishes it could be this good. more visual than acid, more pleasurable that's for sure, and music sounds just absolutely mind-blowing, quite a bit beyond what even acid can do with music, there are simply no words for the experience, it's that good. Like to take the mescaline 1st in 60mg doses spaced 1/2 hour apart, then at the end of the 2 hours of mescaline dosing, take the 25i under tongue, works very well like this.

She liked to refer to nbome as "fake foreign acid" (when taken soley on it's own) because it lacked mystically/spiritually....even though nbome has all the super high visual and behavioral/emotional mind qualities of acid, it really "needs" just a little bit of mescaline to "complete it"...after she and I both tried the nbome with mescaline, it quickly became our alltime favorite, 100% complete in every way with profound psychedelic qualitites, visuals, visions, spiritual & mystical revelations, the whole package. She can't wait to always add in the nbome after the mescaline dosing, cause the mescaline then does it's magic on the nbome by modulating it's intense 5-ht2a, 5-Ht2c, 5-ht6 activity to make the visuals and insights really significant and meaningful, super super visual, we tend to see lots of Mayan and highly charged symbols of religious & mystical significance when the nbome kicks in under the mescaline's influence, lots and lots of morphing of images into other things, whereas on nbome alone, the "visuals" are more like being a club with whirling lights and strobes and flying energy glitter....but this all changes under the mescaline's influence to become highly charged visual activity of archaic and symbolic significance, just as acid provides. Under the combination psychedelic, I can't even look at a person's forehead whether in real life or on TV, without seeing Mayan imagery and strange heiroglyphic writing all over it. At times I see a wave of colored psychedelic film sweep the room we are in like a prism light or laser beam, it's a mind-blowing 3-d visual effect that I never got with acid. With eyes closed I saw different Chinese dragons represented with gold film all over them and highly detailed in all respects, which represented the "power" of the combination psychedelic in it's transformative and mind-manifesting qualities, I was blown away when I was shown the vast Japanese landscapes of serene beauty and tranquility, everything is super colored and neon in brillance with eyes closed, and spinning geometrics of mathematical precision. Acid used to only give me these types of imagery in really high doses, not so with this combination. Mescaline is "the guide" that whips the nbome into shape, molding and shaping the super high visual/behavioral qualites of it in accordance with a divine plan of teaching and revelations.

Mescaline by nature of it's high 5-HT1A & 5-HT1E agonism is able to modulate it's own activity and in doing so gives the additional nbome's very high 5-HT2 activity true purpose and meaning, nbome is then no longer 1/2 of an acid trip, but the full deal. LSD's dual effect on 5-HT2 (stimulatory) and 5-HT1 (inhibitory) can explain how it may appear as an antagonist because it can modulate its own effect...this is exactly what happens when mescaline meets nbome.


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## PsychedelicDoctor

^ you make my mouth water


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## Solipsis

With all due respect, you keep repeating yourself. Though I respect the app


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## MattPsy

^ yeah, pretty much. Tregar, you sell 25i and hydroxypropylcellulose by chance  ? (this is NOT a sourcing post, mods)


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## six70

I have 750ug dose on a blotter. Is there any way I can tone it down to 500ug  both times I've taken I completely lost my mind


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## skillet

Cut a third off?


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## Solipsis

Perfectly fine if they are made evenly, otherwise you might want to soak the blotter in something alcoholic for a while and strain it well, then drink whatever portion you want. Water may not be good enough to pull it out since it is somewhat hydrophobic. Not hydrophobic enough to dissolve in an overwhelming volume perhaps, but still.

For those looking for the comparison discussion we were having earlier, I am in the process of moving those to the general thread here:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...General-Discussion-Thread-25X-NBOMe-Subthread


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## six70

thank you for the advice. I was advised to take the hit buccally so I think I will just chop the blotter up


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## Erny

tregar said:


> had another trip in dreams with 250mg mescaline hcl and 375ug of HPBCD complexed 25i


Don't know why you're that enthusiastic towards combining these. It's "acid" on it's own, maybe just pushing the dose a little higher would be enough? See, when combining psychedelics their effects normally sum up without synergy, i. e. by adding 20 mg of 2C-B to 20 mg of 2C-I we would have the effects close to these of 40 mgs 2C-I (or B) dose. Adding mescaline to 25I should also boost the intensity of 25I. But that can be achieved by just taking more 25I . And it's better not to take the talk about 5-HT1A, 6A and 7A too seriously before it would have some grounds to be based on.

Or maybe I'm wrong, I remember mescaline combined with LSD to be very special. Perhaps when combined with 25I it is also special.

I'd also adwise you not to take 25I too often, it may lose it's magic. Such intense and emotional trips shouldn't be conducted more often than once in two months I believe.


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## IamMe90

I've also found psychs to synergize in unreal ways compared to the total dose of either 1 chem by itself.


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## ephrem

IamMe90 said:


> I've also found psychs to synergize in unreal ways compared to the total dose of either 1 chem by itself.



Last friday I dropped 10 mg of 2C-E but found it too mild. Insufflated 1 mg of 25I-nBOME but I fear it's inactive. Decided to insufflate 2 mgs 25C-nBOME some time later and had an unexpected +++ trip without much bodyload and beautiful visuals without thought.

This was the first time I combined psychs from the same family like this. It's certainly an avenue to explore further.


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## Solipsis

IamMe90 said:


> I've also found psychs to synergize in unreal ways compared to the total dose of either 1 chem by itself.



Some of them do in my experience, but others can bounce off one another as if they both want to tell a story in a different way, a different language or style. It's even completely possible for some combinations to synergize well on one occasion and be bad together at other times. It may be dose and setting dependent but I also feel like it's best when one compound is 'leading' and the other 'following'. Feels better if one serves the role as a primer, so that there is primary/secondary action and not mixed action. Just my personal suggestion only of course.

I feel like it helps if you combine two phenethylamines like 25I and mescaline instead of involving a tryptamine. I mean you certainly can but then I'd make it clear which one is the basis, probably the longest lasting one.

Then again psychedelics like DMT are among the shortest lasting by far but DMT is in most occasions the leading compound, its action overwhelming a significant part those of other drugs.


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## psood0nym

^In my experience the best combos are two very different psychedelics. Examples include aMT and a powerful tryptamine like DPT or 4-ho-DMT (with aMT being very different from each because it's very slow and smooth in a addition to being pharmacologically distinct as a monoamine releaser), or mescaline cacti and ayahuasca (light and heavy). Though, the "light and heavy" idea has its limits, as both aMT and IM DMT (combining aMT with ayahuasca's MAOI is potentially deadly) and cacti and IM DMT resulted in about 30 minutes of tense IM DMT effects and little harmony. IM DMT is just too quick and insistent. I typically take ayahuasca in gelcaps after evaporating the mimosa tea into powder. This results in a much slower and smoother version of the ayahuasca liquid brew (somewhere between it and mushrooms), and seems to make it harmonize much more effectively with cacti, as the "rhythm" of each is different from the other but not too different. I don't think I've had a single trip combining more than two psychedelics that wasn't a little generic and "discordant." 

For me tripping on numerous psychedelics at the same time is like trying to receive and process numerous signals -- starts to sound like white noise -- whereas the combination of just two contrasting psychedelics is like a baritone and a soprano duet. Like in song, I've found this approach to combination to usually work best (but only within the 5-HT psychedelic class of compounds -- when I add empathogens or stimulants or dissociatives it's a different game altogether).  The idea of trying to fill out 5HT receptor subtypes hasn't seemed to work for me, at least not consistently. In fact, if I somehow matched LSD's profile through a combination it wouldn't be particularly profound, as I've never found LSD to be much more than just great fun by itself (for me it's not even remotely the pinnacle of psychedelics as many suggest, a status I think owes in large part to its historical role and the mythic qualities that arose from it, which then in turn often leads to an experience-enhancing expectancy bias in the user). There's clearly a lot of different experiences and opinions on the matter, so I guess people will just have to figure it out for themselves. I will say, though, that I've been at this for 15 years and have done a lot of combos (and more importantly, repeated them, and found the same thing to hold true). 

I doubt I'll combine any 25-X chemical with other psychedelics. As beautiful as they are on their own, they're not super distinct in a way that will shine out in combination for me like the qualities of DMT, aMT, or DPT. What makes them distinct for me is their lucidity, but as soon as I'd bring in a tryptamine or other phen that would be lost. I think I'll probably have better luck looking to whole different classes of drugs like dissociatives or empathogens for combos. I've already tried 25C and ketamine, and it was quite nice.


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## Onandoff

I currently have a sample of some impure 25I-NBOMe cut with 40-60% of dextrose.  I plan to dose sublingually.  Going to have 10mg dissolved in 10ml of water and use a 1ml glass dropper.  I think ethanol may work better for this but I don't haev access to it.  How much I should I be trying for my first dose?  About 2ml since the purity is about 20-40%?  I have tried 2-ce couple of times before with some overwhelming results due to some inaccurate measuring.  I have not tried LSD or other psychedlics of the same family.
Any input is appreciated.
Thanks.


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## PippUK

Greetings Onandoff. These are potent materials as I'm sure you know, so be very cautious with what you have. How did you come by the 40-60% purity figure? Cutting a substance like this one is extremely unhelpful/dangerous. If you must use it, you'd best aim low. I don't know what the tolerance profile is for it, but I'd suspect you'd need to wait some days plus to have a clean canvas again.
  With your max estimate of 60% purity - your 1ml could conceivably deliver 600mcg, which is on the higher side of the usual dosages reported. Or, perhaps 60% purity is an underestimate, and you could be in a sticky place. The dose/response curve is unknown too.
  Whoever cut your sample was unwise. It is likely unevenly distributed in the mix. 
Sounds like you might be better encountering some of the more established psychedelics, ones with more predictable profiles (mostly!). 
You might consider 2CE again, with more careful dosing. You already have some feel of it, so get your setting just right, along with the right dose and company. Other materials I would recommend are 4AcO-DMT and 2CB. Many people have used them and the pattern of their effects is well known. 
If you are determined to use your 25I-NBOMe. take care. I will be trying this substance too in the future and am approaching with caution.
Peace - Pipp


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## Onandoff

Thanks for the reply pipp. Ya I keep in close contact with my vendor dude and he told me that his producer was worried about customer's health and 40-60% of dextrose was mixed with it to make it lighter.  I guessthis could be even more dangerous due to the possibility of unevenly distributed 25I nbome.  And yes I have no way to find out how pure this is. I'll defo. be careful with this one.  All I know is that it has 40-60% dextrose is mixed in it.  I'll be doing more research and figure out the exact purity before experimenting.
Thanks.


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## tregar

And don't worry, only trip once a month or even longer now as I find the combination psychedelic experience very special and sacred, medicine for the soul, body and mind. I treat it with very high reverance. "Aspirin" is a drug but mescaline or nbome is a sacred medicine.

As far as foaf's experiments are concerned, 250mg of mescaline hcl + 375ug of HPBCD complexed 25i completely equates to 200ug of acid in every way, except there is less anxiety during the comeup as compared to acid (perhaps due to lack of 5-HT5 agonism), it feels more pleasurable, has a welcome aesthetic component that acid for the most part lacks, and is more visual than acid as well as more "audial", so in other words, if you find acid too expensive or hard to find, etc. it's the perfect replacement in dreams. Take mescaline 1st in broken up doses during the 1st two hours, then take the nbome, it's the best trips we've ever experienced bar none.

I've tried nbome on it's own many times before combining with mescaline, and while it is "quite nice" all on it's own (about 75% just like acid)....it becomes 110% when combined with even smallish dose of mescaline. A by-product of this, is that it also allows you to stretch your rare mescaline doses further. you no longer need 500mg of mescaline for a far out trip, but the combo can do the same thing.

5-HT1A & 5-HT1E agonism provided by actual acid as well as provided by actual mescaline not only amplifies and modulates 5-HT2 agonism, it also inhibits "serotonin firing"...and imho provides incredible access to archaic visual imagery, mystic and spiritual insights, etc. etc. 5-HT1 agonism (which nbome's lack) should not be ignored imho as it contributes a very relaxed state to the trip, plus spiritual and mystical mind manifesting state. It is difficult to understand until you actually try the nbome on it's own at all different doses, THEN add in even a small dose of mescaline, big time change. Don't take my word on 5-HT1 agonism, check out all the comments by Nichols on this unique receptor that is located all over the brain, see all of Nichol's papers at Heffter.org (HRI review 1 and 2 papers). God Created man not only as a "physical being" but also a "spiritual being", so it's important to take a psychedelic which is worthy of both these.

LSD's and mescaline's dual effect on 5-HT2 (stimulatory) and 5-HT1 (inhibitory) can explain how it may appear as an antagonist because it can modulate its own effect...this is exactly what happens when mescaline meets nbome.


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## Solipsis

Onandoff said:


> Thanks for the reply pipp. Ya I keep in close contact with my vendor dude and he told me that his producer was worried about customer's health and 40-60% of dextrose was mixed with it to make it lighter.  I guessthis could be even more dangerous due to the possibility of unevenly distributed 25I nbome.  And yes I have no way to find out how pure this is. I'll defo. be careful with this one.  All I know is that it has 40-60% dextrose is mixed in it.  I'll be doing more research and figure out the exact purity before experimenting.
> Thanks.



Make a liquid solution of it, in something like vodka. But try to make it a concentration that allows you to insufflate the dose. There is more information about that in the previous 25C-NBOMe thread. Or maybe someone here will come help you with it. You need a syringe without the needle for this, a small one that
has a max volume of 1 ml, and is lined so that you are able to squirt 0.1 ml exactly, up your nose.
The dissolving will help with making sure that everything is mixed properly, and liquid insufflation is supossed to be an effective method, especially practical if you figure out the volume a nasal spray device squirts out (you can measure this by spraying into your empty syringe barrel. No plunger, but WITH stopper or needle on it to keep it in.

_Oh hey Pipp, so lovely to see you - I will send you an email, a casual one about how things are going with you and whats up with me, written down as a to do for tormorrow.  Right now gotta go get some sleep._


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## Onandoff

Thanks. Yes I'm going to make a liquid solution(either water or vodka).  I just don't want to get crazy body load I have experienced with 2ce past couple of times.  It was just too ridiculous how much nausea I got from the 2ce    Thought I was careful dosing with my mg scale but I guess not.
Like I posted earlier I think my glass dropper with calibrated marks will work fine. (1ml max divided into .25ml marks).  Just wanna be clear with my vendor how exact pure this stuff is before dosing.   40-60% dextrose in it just not so specific of a description for me to consume this yet.


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## PsychedelicDoctor

Onandoff said:


> Thanks. Yes I'm going to make a liquid solution(either water or vodka).  I just don't want to get crazy body load I have experienced with 2ce past couple of times.  It was just too ridiculous how much nausea I got from the 2ce    Thought I was careful dosing with my mg scale but I guess not.
> Like I posted earlier I think my glass dropper with calibrated marks will work fine. (1ml max divided into .25ml marks).  Just wanna be clear with my vendor how exact pure this stuff is before dosing.   40-60% dextrose in it just not so specific of a description for me to consume this yet.



I get a lot of body load myself from 2c-e.  Really interferes with my enjoyment of the experience.  Please report back on any body load experiences with this substance.


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## jason7

Tregar, I've been reading your posts. Very informative. In regard to mixing with mescaline, how about mixing with 2C-I or 2C-E instead? Mescaline is not easy to come by and ridiculously lacking in potency. maybe they don't have the missing effect required to balance it, I don't know.

Another thing I wanted to discuss is the fact that HPBCD is practically impossible to source. I recently was doing some research with 2C-E and to make it more soluble I converted it from the HCL to the monobasic phosphate salt. That made it a lot more soluble and also reduced nasal burn to a slight annoyance. My thinking is that maybe if I convert 25I-NBOMe HCL to the phosphate it might solve the low solubility/absorption problem. Another idea I had is to make small tablets like Lucy and then coat them with an enteric substance so that it won't be attacked by enzymes in the stomach. Might prolong the comeup time some but it still should work. I read a post about a person making enteric coated elemi oil doses and it worked perfectly. Normally, elemi oil is inactivated in the stomach. Maybe you could just inject it into an enteric coated fish oil capsule or something. 

This could be a very popular compound if we can get around the dosing problems. The lack of serious body load makes it a big improvement over the 2C-X's, which I find just too unpleasant to want to repeat. Making it orally effective would probably be the biggest advancement. The HPBCD is an ideal substance for sublingual administration, just that there's no easy way to obtain it and then after you complex it you have to freeze it to store it for more than a few months.

I just got 600 mg of it so I'll be doing some research in this regard over the next while. I also thought of a good name for it, Dream. I got it from a movie I saw a long time ago with Daniel Baldwin in it. It was about a drug cartel that was selling a designer drug called Crystal Dream. 25I-NBOMe is kind of a dream psychedelic. It's about as perfect as you can get without actually being LSD itself.


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## tregar

Thanks for the kind words Jason. Mixing it with 2c-i or 2c-e would not work the same because neither of those synthetic psychedelics hit the 5-HT1 receptors, 2c-e only very very very lightly hits the 5-HT1 receptors, so it won't help much. What we are lacking with the nbome is only that it needs something to go along with it that hits the 5-HT1A and 5-HT1E receptors. By studying Ray's receptor data paper you can find some other substances that may do that as well as mescaline, I know of a couple others. Mescaline comes from Cactus that are New World Psychedelics. Is it really that rare in Europe? I've always been curious. Good luck with your research.

These receptors have been shown to lower blood pressure, stimulate & modulate 5-HT2 receptors, decrease anxiety, increase serenity, release dopamine from many important areas of the brain, inhibit the firing of serotonin while still allowing serotonin-look alike moelcules (such as mescaline, etc.) to stimulate them. IMHO They add a very relaxing contemplative meditative state that is lacking with nbome alone, change the visual imagery, expand the visual field 10 fold, link one to all of collective consiousness, help plug one into some higher mystical spiritual state, all very mysterious.

Don't forget that 5-HT2 agonism stimulates blood pressure slightly, so a little bit of "lowering blood pressure" from 5-HT1 could not be a bad thing at all.

I don't have permission to attach pdf files to posts, but Ray's paper is somewhere on the net, i've printed it out before.


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## jason7

But isn't the whole idea of NBOMe to avoid the body load of compounds like mescaline? Why go back to the days of body load when the future is here and its name is I-BOM (in honor of Steve Jobs). It's the smooth ride to paradise, and hopefully no groin contraction like with LSD. I don't like the ergot type effects of LSD. Your nads take some punishment. It also has the drawback of being a CNS stimulant. Staying up all night isn't all that much fun and neither is urinary retention. I think I-BOM will be an improvement over LSD. I don't mind if a couple minor aspects of the LSD effect are missing. I just want to be able to trip balls, if you will, and not contracted ones either. Tripping balls with no nausea and other unpleasant side effects will be the next level. Ralf Heim is the modern version of Albert Hoffman. He is the father of the I-BOM.


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## tregar

Don't worry, when you take 250mg of mescaline hcl divided into three 75mg doses (take 75mg every 1/2 hour), there is no body load at all....there is about 10 minutes of very faint nausea feeling that quickly goes away, we have done this 6 times now (6 trips of combination mescaline + nbome) and never did either one of us throw up ever...the female has a very sensitive stomach and even she did not complain....10 minutes of very faint queasy ness is a very small price to pay to enter the most beautiful psychedelic experience of your life. By breaking up mescaline doses, you cause much less stomach irritation, after the 10 minute feeling of heavy stomach is experienced approximately 30 minutes after your last mescaline dose, there are no physical side effects after that. The whole experience is side effect free and zero body load, there is very slight increase in pulse for about 1.5 hour after you take the nbome, but that goes away after 1 to 1.5 hour in the beginning as stated. I would rather take this combination every time as compared to acid, it's that good. I'll post a link later to Ray's paper so you can study the receptor chart for other compounds with 5-HT1 activity at the forefront if you want. If a female can take 250mg of mescaline hcl month after month without even throwing up or coming close to it, then I'm sure you could too, so no worries my friend. The hard part would be looking for it and extracting it. Extraction is easy but I have no idea how hard it is to locate the cactus you are after in The European Nations. It grows all over the place here.


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## Onandoff

Onandoff said:


> Thanks. Yes I'm going to make a liquid solution(either water or vodka).  I just don't want to get crazy body load I have experienced with 2ce past couple of times.  It was just too ridiculous how much nausea I got from the 2ce    Thought I was careful dosing with my mg scale but I guess not.
> Like I posted earlier I think my glass dropper with calibrated marks will work fine. (1ml max divided into .25ml marks).  Just wanna be clear with my vendor how exact pure this stuff is before dosing.   40-60% dextrose in it just not so specific of a description for me to consume this yet.



Hmm... just found out what I have is 25B-NBOMe not 25I.
How does 25B differ from 25I or 25C? 
Any info is appreciated.


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## psood0nym

Onandoff said:


> Hmm... just found out what I have is 25B-NBOMe not 25I.
> How does 25B differ from 25I or 25C?
> Any info is appreciated.


Be extremely careful with it.  Erny reported one person who used 25B went to the hospital and stopped breathing.


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## Onandoff

Wow I see.
I did hear people talking about more vasoconstriction with this compound. Hmm..
That sounds scary . Might just flush it lol.


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## jason7

There's not much info available on it. I did a search myself because it had a lower price than the 25I. The post mentioned, by Erny, does mention vasoconstriction.

Bromo Dragonfly causes a lot of vasoconstriction too so maybe the Bromine increases this effect. As long as you keep the dose low it should be safe though. I hope you didn't get a large amount of it. It'll probably be fine, just that the others would be preferable next time. I think it's only the 25I that has the strong empathogenic effects. I haven't read that about 25C. So MDMA fans would likely prefer that one. From what I've read, 25C is more of a straight hallucinogen. 25B is probably somewhere between the two.


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## Onandoff

Interesting..
Will probably give it a go once.  This 25b is only 40-60% pure anyway.  The rest is dextrose so it is light.
I will make a liquid solution out of it and do a accurate dosing.
Thanks for the info Jason.


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## tregar

Ray's paper for those who have asked:

hxxp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2814854/pdf/pone.0009019.pdf

With nasal application, it's true you come up very fast and there is often some anxiety due to the rapid comeup, and the peak occurs sooner, held under tongue, it is all still just as strong, but there is a more gradual build-up to the peak which is then longer and more drawn out. And yes, cyclodextrins even enhance nasal application.

I have a few new things to add, we have found that simply holding the HPBCD-complexed paper under tongue for as little as 10 minutes does the trick very well....20 minutes is not needed.

As soon as your _whole tongue goes numb_ you know it is all dissolved, this happens with us in about 5 minutes, but we hold it under tongue for 10 minutes anyways. The cyclodextrin complexed stuff works really fast. The tongue becomes so numb that even for 10 minutes afterwards you can barely taste anything you try to eat.

And I take back my statement about higher doses of nbome with mescaline necessarily causing more analysis or electric type energy....the time I had experienced that "type of trip" was when I had taken the combination in the morning, before my body was warmed up...the trips are meant to be taken at night, I've never gotten the over-analyzing or electric type feeling if trips are done at night,

Last trip report, as ran out of mescaline for a while:

for example, last night with 250mg of mescaline hcl + 400ug (micrograms) of HPBCD complexed 25i under tongue caused the best trip yet..with eyes closed, I saw for a good hour during the peak of both substances never-ending neon visuals and visions of immense beauty, incredible detail, remarkable precision with not a blimish anywhere, archetypical images of exact brilliance and construction, artwork, historical images of all types, architectural structures, spinning geometrics all super neon with every color represented.....it was just mind-blowing, the whole time listening to music that sounded the whole time so out of this world that I wanted to cry it was all so beautiful, all things were made of more things inside of them, and the process just kept going on and on forever, super highly visual with eyes closed....yet there was no "over-analyzing" or any type of "electric type feelings" that acid would normally give you, it was very laid back and very very peaceful....immensely pleasurable the whole time. I had no idea it was possible to see things with eyes closed of such remarkable detail in every way that I literally had my mouth open the whole time in shock, it was like peering into a universe of your higher self that you are not supposed to see. I was shown artwork that I thought never existed, it was like "here look at this, check out what I can show you, I bet you've never seen anything like this ever before", and it was so true, sp said the same, everytime she closed her eyes, she could not believe the impossible imagery that she was being shown. I saw stone artwork that looked like it was chisled by the hand of God, it had impossibly perfect round features and swirls with blinding brilliance, still can't get over it. This is an artist/creative person's dream come true.

have worked with the combination enough times allready to have learned that each psychedelic trip has a "theme" to it, there are lessons to be learned and teaching taking place, there is a definite guide the whole time, I never got that with acid much at all, but this combination trip gives me direct teaching and things that it wants to show me each time, nothing ever repeats, every trip is very different...it's not just pretty visuals like acid would have you see, but actual visions with a guide to teach you.

If I had to compare the trip with acid, I would say it was equal to about 250ug of acid in visual quality, yet even still more visual, yet not an ounce of anxiety the whole time, it doesn't get any better than this imho.


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## jason7

Maybe you're onto something with this mescaline/25I combo, Tregar. I've never had actual visions of objects, like landscapes or structures, with any hallucinogen. All I ever got was patterning. This combo may be a unique thing. In the Ray article "Profiles of Drugs" it shows that 5-MeO-MIPT and related tryptamines have a higher 5-HTa1 figure than Mescaline so it may be even better;

5-MeO-MIPT: 4.00 5ht1a, 3.79 5ht7, 3.74 5ht1d, 3.32 5ht2b, 2.98 5ht6, 2.85 Alpha2A, 2.61 5ht1b, 2.44 5ht2a, 2.29 Alpha2C, 2.15 Imidazoline1, 2.13 Sigma2, 2.11 5ht5a, 1.86 Alpha2B, 1.75 5ht2c, 1.70 D3, 1.55 5ht1e, 1.41 H1, 1.29 D4, 1.28 SERT; 0.00: D2, Alpha1B, D5, D1, Beta2, NET, DAT, Sigma1, Beta1, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, Alpha1A, H2, CB2, NMDA, Ca+Channel; ND: CB1

Mescaline: 4.00 Alpha2C, 3.97 5ht2b, 3.61 5ht1a, 3.44 Imidazoline1, 3.16 5ht1e, 2.92 Alpha2A; 0.00: 5ht2a, 5ht2c, 5ht6, 5ht1d, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, Alpha1A, Alpha1B, 5ht5a, Alpha2B, 5ht7, Beta1, Beta2, SERT, DAT, NET, 5ht1b, Sigma1, Sigma2, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, H1, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, NMDA

The methoxy tryptamines are still available as research chemicals in some countries and less is required than mescaline, something like 5 milligrams oral.


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## Ralt

Regardless of that information, 5-meo-dmt would be a lackluster combination for visuals in my opinion. It's so visually dull, There's not a lot beyond white beaming light, even when I mixed it with DPT the 5-meo-dmt just made everything brighter.


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## jason7

I see. I guess mescaline is the thing then. I won't be trying the NBOMe for a while anyway, because it appears that what I bought was bunk. The company seemed legit. They sent something in a plastic vial with labeling and MSDS and everything, only it clearly wasn't an amine salt because when I tried to convert it to the phosphate salt the original substance didn't even form an oil when basified, nothing got extracted and nothing crystallized when phosphoric acid was added. It must have been common salt or sugar. I thought it looked awfully grainy in the vial. PEA's aren't usually grainy but more of a fine powder. With this stuff I could see little cubical crystals, much like salt or sugar. I'm assuming NBOMe doesn't really look like that. The lesson, make the smallest possible order to test a company out first. I'm way too trusting, apparently, and got sucked in by a sale price for larger quantity. Nothing serious, but enough to tick me off. As it is now, I have no reliable source for NBOMe, just 2C-X and tryptamines. I'll come back to the thread if I ever do get some real NBOMe. It is kind of a troublesome substance to deal with anyway, from what I've read so far.


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## Erny

jason7 said:


> With this stuff I could see little cubical crystals, much like salt or sugar. I'm assuming NBOMe doesn't really look like that.


That is the exact appearance of a pure substance, as a hydrochloride. Sugar-like colourless crystals. And the crystalline form is itself a sign of purity, powder - is not. Why do you assume PEAs don't look like crystals? I have most of them in a crystalline form, because I like them to be pure. DOC, for example, also like to form sugar-like cubes. Though most of them prefer to crystallise as needles or leaves.



psood0nym said:


> Be extremely careful with it. Erny reported one person who used 25B went to the hospital and stopped breathing.


Why do you wish to attribute that to 2C-B-NBOMe only? I'd rather attribute this to NBOMes in general, any other NBOMe structure could possibly cause such reaction, not just 25B.


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## Erny

Your failure to obtain it in the form of phosphate might be due to inadequate technique used, not due to the substance being a bunk as you say. I don't know how skilled you are in this, and not sure if this discussion is allowed by the rules of the board. Phosphates may be tricky to crystallise. NBOMes act as PTC's (phase transfer catalysts) chemically, which means they are quite soluble in almost any organic solvent except aliphatic hydrocarbons even in ionic form (as salts), especially in chloroorganics. As salts, they may be easily extracted from a solution in water with such things as chlorophorm or methylene chloride.

They shouldn't necessarily look as an oil in a freebase form. I think these may actually be solid at room temp, though I never cared to try to obtain them in a freebase form.


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## jason7

True that it's possible that the NBOM is a grainy crystal, but it would certainly form an oil when basified. This substance that I got could not be an amine salt. Anyway, I'll take it as a wakeup call. I was getting a little carried away with this Research Chemicals thing. I tried the 2C-I today that I got recently. I thought it might be an improvement over the 2C-E that I had already tried. It was slightly less objectionable, but not by much. There always seems to be a price to pay with the PEA's and it just isn't an overall rewarding experience for me. I guess seeing pretty patterns isn't really going to do me much good anyway, when you think about it. Not really worth one second of discomfort. To each his own, but the psychedelics just don't seem to be working for me. I'm just giving money away to unscrupulous people and not really getting much benefit out of it. I guess Cannabis really is the only good thing on earth.


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## Erny

jason7 said:


> True that it's possible that the NBOM is a grainy crystal, but it would certainly form an oil when basified.


They shouldn't necessarily look as an oil when basified. Depending on the quantity of the substance, it may actually look as a clear solution, or slightly turbid solution. You weren't working with grams, right? Then why are you so certain there should be an oil?


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## Erny

jason7 said:


> There always seems to be a price to pay with the PEA's and it just isn't an overall rewarding experience for me. I guess seeing pretty patterns isn't really going to do me much good anyway, when you think about it. Not really worth one second of discomfort. To each his own, but the psychedelics just don't seem to be working for me. I'm just giving money away to unscrupulous people and not really getting much benefit out of it. I guess Cannabis really is the only good thing on earth.


You are clearly messing with the wrong chems now. I suggest you to look at tryptamines instead, perhaps try DMT if you haven't done that already. Psychedelics in general are not about "seeing pretty patterns". What a shame. Though 2C-X doesn't get you much further than that, it's true.


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## psood0nym

Erny said:


> Why do you wish to attribute that to 2C-B-NBOMe only? I'd rather attributed it to NBOMes in general, any other NBOMe structure could possibly cause such reaction, not just 25B.


Why do you think I wished to attribute it only to 25B from that quote? My intent was to make a cautionary note it for a poster claiming to have 25B who expressed uncertainty about it . The only older reports of using 25B that I know of come from your small group. At the same time, so far as I know your report of a person stopping breathing is the only such report of a reaction like that to any of the NBOMes, despite the fact that the number of people who have tried 25C and 25I by now may be 1000 fold greater than the number who have tried 25B. So that seems like a good reason to make special mention of it even if other popular NBOMes may have the potential to kill some at relatively common doses.


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## Erny

I'd say four milligrams is not a "relatively common" dose. This is too much, even for me.


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## Vader

> Mixing it with 2c-i or 2c-e would not work the same because neither of those synthetic psychedelics hit the 5-HT1 receptors, 2c-e only very very very lightly hits the 5-HT1 receptors, so it won't help much. What we are lacking with the nbome is only that it needs something to go along with it that hits the 5-HT1A and 5-HT1E receptors


This shows 2C-E as having significant activity at those receptors.


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## jason7

Naw, this was totally bunk right here. I could tell by the way it poured out of the vial, just like salt. PEA's aren't like that. 2C-I is sort of flaky and 2C-E is chalky but neither of them can be poured like salt. Those mofos probably ran out of the real stuff long ago, if they ever had it. 2C-E converted perfectly to the phosphate. There's no way you can miss it, when you pour in the 85% phosphoric it clouds right up and keeps getting thicker with white precipitate. With this stuff, nothing happened at all on addition of the acid and when evaporated the only weight remaining was of the phosphoric acid I had put in. Literally nothing got extracted from the basified solution. I got bunked on this one, simple as that. It happens. I thought it was a little odd when they replied to my messages on the weekend. None of those companies are open on weekends, SOB's.

BTW, the 2C-I trip got better with time, and after I ate something and smoked something. Tasted like crap when I mixed it with water to take it though. 2C-E phosphate was tasteless when mixed with a similar amount of water. I wanted to see what the normal HCL form of 2C-I would be like before I try to convert it. Pretty heinous, as it turns out. Guess I better convert it.


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## MattPsy

jason7 said:


> True that it's possible that the NBOM is a grainy crystal, but it would certainly form an oil when basified. This substance that I got could not be an amine salt. Anyway, I'll take it as a wakeup call. I was getting a little carried away with this Research Chemicals thing. I tried the 2C-I today that I got recently. I thought it might be an improvement over the 2C-E that I had already tried. It was slightly less objectionable, but not by much. There always seems to be a price to pay with the PEA's and it just isn't an overall rewarding experience for me. I guess seeing pretty patterns isn't really going to do me much good anyway, when you think about it. Not really worth one second of discomfort. To each his own, but the psychedelics just don't seem to be working for me. I'm just giving money away to unscrupulous people and not really getting much benefit out of it. I guess Cannabis really is the only good thing on earth.



Actually, wrong! I have NBOMe-2C-C in two freebase forms. The only difference between the two is how they were purified after synthesis - more specifically, the solvent used to dissolve them and how it was removed. One is a viscous oil, and the other is a waxy white powder. My hydrochloride salts made from both forms is identical, fluffy white needle crystals that snap cleanly and have a fishscale sheen. The qualitative effects are also identical.


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## psood0nym

Erny said:
			
		

> I'd say four milligrams is not a "relatively common" dose. This is too much, even for me.


Well, that's why I qualified it by saying "relatively," and don't suggest that it's just outright common. Someone who has experienced the rapid tolerance development of something like 25C (which you've noted in the past) could easily take 4 mg or near it IIRC in one session, making a plausible case for it being relatively common in redose situations (I have dosed 4mg IM with 25C over the course of a day, though my typical dosage to start is within the common range -- 1 mg). I agree that 4 mg is a high dose of either 25C or 25I to take all at once without tolerance for most. 

But I'm curious about what you said in post #144:


Erny said:


> _30 mgs _of that same 2C-B-NBOMe didn't kill me, but 4 mgs may kill you if you're unlucky to be as sensitive as that person.


I thought maybe you dosed that high by accident (EDIT: I was right, presumably you mixed up 25B with another drug? see EDIT below) or something and overdosed, but then I searched and found this post by you from 2008.


> The largest per os assay was with 30 mg NBOMe-2C-B. It gave a light +1/2 by Shulgin scale, only little stronger than 3 mg per os that can also be felt as a +/- threshold. And it could have been the adsorption through the mucous membrane. There are very few literary reports. The most detailed are about overdoses.


So you did it orally at 30 mg? Why then, do you mention the 30 mg dose in post #144 without saying so?  That seems like a pretty critical detail when you're talking about near death experience (not to mention you were arguing why 4 mg might kill a person when oral administration wasn't even under consideration in the argument forwarded by the poster you were arguing against). I don't think many who read of your 30 mg survival experience in this post #144 imagined it was an oral dose because you compare it to the 4 mg overdose at the same time in order to stress diversity of sensitivity in dosing. Is there a reason it's surprising you didn't overdose using an ROA thought to be inactive for NBOMes? On the 25C (part 2) thread's first page administration is listed as "strictly parenteral," and that's the clear consensus perception regarding NBOMes based on reading through posts. In fact, that you felt 3 mg oral and 30 mg oral were both about threshold suggests placebo effect at first glance, unless, that is, the 4 mg dose that caused that man to stop breathing was taken orally as well. It wasn't, was it?

EDIT: 


> Apropos of this, 2 mg of NBOMe-2C-I or B can lead to a confusion and/or delirious state, and as little as 4 mg can kill you. This is not an average lethal dose, rather it can be lethal for a sensitive person. I am not one of these, as I have actually overdosed myself by error with 30 mg NBOMe-2C-B once. Not only I am alive, but had no consequences of it at all. But I am certainly not the person to follow the example of.


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## adder

I've got over a gram of 25I-NBOMe and I wanted to know how different ROAs compare before I divide what I have and prepare a solution with stable pH with some of it and mix with glucose some to put it into pills.

I'm wondering if anyone injected it intravenously. I did a few 4-substituted 2,5-dimethoxyPEAs and 4-substituted 2,5-dimethoxyAs. They're more harsh on veins than tryptamines but nonetheless it's doable. I can start very low, my balance readability is 0.1mcg. I want to get dissociated somehow from the reality and I'm tapering down methadone and I broke myself once so I don't want to do it again and end up with a rig in my vein and barrel loaded with some pentamorphone or whatever.

Also, is there a big problem with falling asleep after it wears off? I know there are some trip reports in here but I'm quite sensitive to anything stimulating especially now as I get anxious without a serious reason due to benzodiazepine addiction and it's been some time since I've done some psychedelics. I've got brotizolam and etizolam from hypnotics, I just need to test them alone substituting my one clonazepam dose with 3 doses of each throughout the day to see how much brotizolam/etizolam is equal to e.g. 1mg of clonazepam (well, I've got barbiturates as well but I don't want to use them, I never did as an aid to chill out after a heavy psychedelic experience).


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## Onandoff

Thought I should contribute some small info on 25b-nbome.  Just started testing with the 25b over the weekend.  I found sublingual and insufflation to be the best ROA.  Oral(with liquid) just doesn't work well for this compound.  2-3mg sublingual dose was very meditating and chill.  Didn't notice much visual.  Tried 4-5mg two days later and there were strong visual effects.  It was much gentler come up than 2c-e in terms of body load n etc.  I know my doses look higher than norm here but again my 25b has impurity of 40-60% dextrose.  Will give it a go again in two weeks and maybe I can write a detailed trip report in the proper section then.

Edit: Oops just realized there is small and fancy 25B-MBOMe thread.  Mods can move this post there if needed.


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## IamMe90

Why don't you put this in the 25b thread? I'm not sure why all of this 25b discussion is happening in the 25i thread lol


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## MattPsy

psood0nym said:


> So you did it orally at 30 mg? Why then, do you mention the 30 mg dose in post #144 without saying so?  That seems like a pretty critical detail when you're talking about near death experience (not to mention you were arguing why 4 mg might kill a person when oral administration wasn't even under consideration in the argument forwarded by the poster you were arguing against). I don't think many who read of your 30 mg survival experience in this post #144 imagined it was an oral dose because you compare it to the 4 mg overdose at the same time in order to stress diversity of sensitivity in dosing. Is there a reason it's surprising you didn't overdose using an ROA thought to be inactive for NBOMes? On the 25C (part 2) thread's first page administration is listed as "strictly parenteral," and that's the clear consensus perception regarding NBOMes based on reading through posts. In fact, that you felt 3 mg oral and 30 mg oral were both about threshold suggests placebo effect at first glance, unless, that is, the 4 mg dose that caused that man to stop breathing was taken orally as well. It wasn't, was it?



Not only this, but if the reason that these NBOMe compounds are orally inactive truly is due to N-debenzylation in first-pass metabolism (something I myself do not believe, rather suspecting it to be ADME/pharmacokinetic effects like Erny first suggested), then 30mg of 25B should have caused more than a +/- on the Shulgin Scale.

Why? Because 30mg 25B-hydrochloride is equivalent to 21.35mg of 2C-B hydrochloride (71.99 micromoles, if you'd like to verify this yourselves, the MW of those compounds being 416.74 and 296.59 g/mol-1 respectively). Anyone don't try telling me that 21.35mg of 2C-B HCl would cause only a +/- reaction..!


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## jason7

MattPsy said:


> Actually, wrong! I have NBOMe-2C-C in two freebase forms. The only difference between the two is how they were purified after synthesis - more specifically, the solvent used to dissolve them and how it was removed. One is a viscous oil, and the other is a waxy white powder. My hydrochloride salts made from both forms is identical, fluffy white needle crystals that snap cleanly and have a fishscale sheen. The qualitative effects are also identical.



Thank you. What I got was not needles but cubes, so obviously not NBOMe. I looked at it with a magnifying glass and it was like salt grains. I would have noticed needles for sure. I contacted the supplier and he maintained that it was real. Maybe he got a bad batch and didn't know it, though I'm sure someone would have brought it to his attention. He says he's getting a new batch this week so maybe I'll try the smallest possible order.

Was everybody's NBOMe white needles?


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## tryp2fun

jason7 said:


> Thank you. What I got was not needles but cubes, so obviously not NBOMe. I looked at it with a magnifying glass and it was like salt grains. I would have noticed needles for sure. I contacted the supplier and he maintained that it was real. Maybe he got a bad batch and didn't know it, though I'm sure someone would have brought it to his attention. He says he's getting a new batch this week so maybe I'll try the smallest possible order.
> 
> Was everybody's NBOMe white needles?



No, depends on the compound and how it was crystallized.  I've seen 25I hydrochloride (verified, highly active sublingually at 400 ug) that was granular, like sugar crystals.  Erny is right that the NBOMes have very different solubilities than the 2C-Xs, so crystallization requires different conditions.


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## Erny

psood0nym said:


> Well, that's why I qualified it by saying "relatively," and don't suggest that it's just outright common. Someone who has experienced the rapid tolerance development of something like 25C


We weren't talking about developed tolerance here.



> But I'm curious about what you said in post #144:
> 
> I thought maybe you dosed that high by accident (EDIT: I was right, presumably you mixed up 25B with another drug? see EDIT below) or something and overdosed, but then I searched and found this post by you from 2008.
> 
> So you did it orally at 30 mg? Why then, do you mention the 30 mg dose in post #144 without saying so?


Don't mix it all like that, please. I've always mentioned the overdose oxperience was i/m. But I've done 2C-B-NBOMe at 30 mgs twice. Once - orally and willingly, and once - i/m, after having mislabeled it as "TMA-2-NBOMe". The oral experience wasn't quite a shulgin's threshold, it was, perhaps, +1,5 at the peak. It didn't felt like if it was 2C-B, that was clearly 2C-B-NBOMe that was felt. The experiment was inaccurate for the chemical might have had adsorbed transbuccaly. It'll be more accurate with a gelatine capsule to avoid transbuccal adsorption. So better forget about that oral 30 mgs experiment at once, or at least do not make any conclusions out of it. You may want to read the NBOMe-mescaline thread here on the details of oral activity of NBOMe phenylethylamines.


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## adder

Crystallography was never my favorite chemistry "subscience". But I do have a microscope, my 25I-NBOMe HCl does seem to look like white needles and it's been synthesized in laboratory, it was purified, then a mass spectrometry was done. It's >99% pure. (not saying other form can't be 25I-NBOMe)


----------



## Erny

jason7 said:


> Was everybody's NBOMe white needles?


You seem to ignore my posts altogether. That's not good. Needles are the most common and essential form for organic salts. Anything here may crystallise as needles. This is when a crystal grows most in one single direction. It may also grow in two directions, and that is when we would see "leaves" or "plates". But it is only the case when the crystal grows normally in 3d when we would see its actual geometry. Yes, I've seen 2C-I-NBOMe as needles too. This form depends on the conditions during crystallisation.

That thing on the photo below was 2C-D-NBOMe under the microscope. These are "leaves", although some of the crystals grew in 3d.


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## Erny

And that your amine did not fell out upon acidification doesn't speak much of anything. I've seen such things many times even with hydrochloric acid, while phosphates may be far more difficult to crystallise. And the PTC nature of the chemical might have led to it's loss somewhere during the workup. I'd suggest you better try it as is before making any conclusions like that.


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## adder

This is totally true what's been written about the crystalline lattice of 25I-NBOMe. I've also got 25C-NBOMe, 25B-NBOMe, 25D-NBOMe, and 25E-NBOMe that weren't synthesized at the same time as 25I-NBOMe and the crystalline form doesn't look like needles.

Look these up (these are *not* links posted by *me*! I just want to show what I mean):
http://i52.twitgoo.com/wwdjd5.jpg
http://i52.twitgoo.com/k2lovs.jpg

These are actually said to be 25D-NBOMe and 25C-NBOMe by the person who sent it. Well, it might be 25I-NBOMe as well. In fact you can "manipulate" the crystallization process so the outcome is not needles but, like Erny said, "plates" or "leaves". The fact that your 25I-NBOMe crystals look like cubes under some magnifying glass doesn't mean by no means it's not 25I-NBOMe and it may be even pure but the shapes can be different.


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## jason7

I did get some kind of oil out of it after all. I might not have put enough hydroxide in at first. I still had all the solutions so I put a bunch more hydroxide in and mixed it vigorously and when I evaporated some of the solvent there was an oily substance left with a piney scent. Maybe I can use it as the freebase, if that's what it is. I'll have to evaporate the rest and see if it really is the NBOMe. I don't know what else it would be. Glad I didn't chuck it out or anything. Still it could turn out to be some other substance, but I did check the company on the safeorscam website and all the posts said it was legit. After I saw that I ordered the smallest amount of 25C-NBOMe from them yesterday. This time I won't try to convert it to another salt at all, just use it as is. Mayber 25C will be better because of faster comeup and shorter duration. 

*no discussion of sources, or of places where you can discuss sources*


----------



## jason7

I still didn't get anything out of it. Got like 30 mg of something when I added phosphoric acid. That experiment sucked. No idea what actually happened. Did some guy in the packing department decide he wanted some free 25I and there was a salt shaker nearby? I don't know. Why did I pour the whole vial in the hydroxide solution instead of saving 100 mg or so? I don't know. That was pretty nuts right there. However, now I'll just appreciate it more when I really get it. The VP of the company emailed me and says he'll send me a free 20 mg sample when his new batch comes in shortly. I'll see if it looks like that other stuff. I really don't think 25I looks exactly like salt. Could turn out it does, but I'll be very surprised. I think it's either needles or fine powder that clumps together.


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## MattPsy

Crystals of 25C-NBOMe hydrochloride from acidification of IPA-acetone solution of freebase with aqueous 7M HCl.


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## blowjay

MattPsy said:


> fluffy white needle crystals that snap cleanly and have a fishscale sheen



I bet Charlie has been called 'Fishscale Sheen' before (sorry had to). 

Can those with experience contribute to this thread with more in terms of a generalized experience and time frame? I have read through 5 pages of arguing about appearances of the compound and different combinations. While these things are great to talk about, nobody is getting to the meat of why most people (I assume) read these threads. 

Some of us love to hear what this stuff does described in detail. Feed our imaginations.


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## champ

I've taken this twice so far and it's sort of hard to describe. 1mg was better than 500mcg for me. 
The compound felt distinctly phenethylamine, lots of body buzz--would likely be amazing for sex. Music appreciation was off the charts good. Visuals were minimal for me both times and consisted mainly of color bleeding, weird effects with light. No patterns or overlays. On the lower dose I was more energetic and could have danced or walked around a museum all day. The higher dose found me feeling languid yet stimulated.

The come-on is very fast for me, about 15 minutes until first alert then a rapid rise and a drop-off after 3 hours or so. I felt initial nausea both times, tendency towards bruxism. The residual stimulation and feeling of being off-baseline continues for a long time for me, I find it hard to go to sleep even 10 hours after ingestion. The second time I took this, at 1mg, I decided to take a dose of 4-aco after 3 hours because I felt the trippiness waning. Combination was fun but nothing special really. 2ce+4aco together is much more shattering. The 4aco here just amped up the visuals.

Overall, there was nothing too ego-threatening so far for me in this one. The day after taking 25I I feel really crabby and short-tempered which is a minus in my book. I'd likely keep this one around though.


----------



## Survived Abortion

^Thanks. How are the CEVs?


----------



## Altered Carbon

champ said:


> I've taken this twice so far and it's sort of hard to describe. 1mg was better than 500mcg for me.
> The compound felt distinctly phenethylamine, lots of body buzz--would likely be amazing for sex. Music appreciation was off the charts good. Visuals were minimal for me both times and consisted mainly of color bleeding, weird effects with light. No patterns or overlays. On the lower dose I was more energetic and could have danced or walked around a museum all day. The higher dose found me feeling languid yet stimulated.
> 
> The come-on is very fast for me, about 15 minutes until first alert then a rapid rise and a drop-off after 3 hours or so. I felt initial nausea both times, tendency towards bruxism. The residual stimulation and feeling of being off-baseline continues for a long time for me, I find it hard to go to sleep even 10 hours after ingestion. The second time I took this, at 1mg, I decided to take a dose of 4-aco after 3 hours because I felt the trippiness waning. Combination was fun but nothing special really. 2ce+4aco together is much more shattering. The 4aco here just amped up the visuals.
> 
> Overall, there was nothing too ego-threatening so far for me in this one. The day after taking 25I I feel really crabby and short-tempered which is a minus in my book. I'd likely keep this one around though.



Pretty much a mirror of my own experiences. I usually do 1500ug buccaly. Apart from all you said, the only thing I can add is at the higher dose I lose my body (so to speak), and just become basically a brain and 2 eyes floating through the space/time continuum. If I purposely shift my focus over to my body, I can see its there and feels its there, but without the conscious effort, the body and limbs almost ceasy to exist.

like you said, music appreciation is off the charts good, visuals mostly color bleeding and light effects (surfaces look electric). Even a dull scene tends to look beautiful. Appreciation of nature also highly enhanced. I didn't get much of a body buzz. Also, snappier and bit shorter temperament that day after. If I do it 3 days in a row, then the 1st few days off it are very hard to wake up out of bed.. I think I can feel the burnout or down-regulation neural pathways (kinda like after mdma but nowhere bear as bad).

Tried taking a hit after some 25c-nbmome and it was not good. Sensory overload. Time speed up, lost linkage from one moment to the next, sound distorted, visuals too distorted to make sense (nothing pretty, just messy).

Love the 25i on its own though... thinking to combo with Ketamine possibly, or some other chem that has a warm body glow.

Also has some great personal insights and revelations of sorts. Always keep a pen and paper handy on this one, the thought processes are deep and awesome.


----------



## jason7

blowjay said:


> I bet Charlie has been called 'Fishscale Sheen' before (sorry had to).
> 
> Can those with experience contribute to this thread with more in terms of a generalized experience and time frame? I have read through 5 pages of arguing about appearances of the compound and different combinations. While these things are great to talk about, nobody is getting to the meat of why most people (I assume) read these threads.
> 
> Some of us love to hear what this stuff does described in detail. Feed our imaginations.


 
True enough, and that's what trip report threads are for. This is a general 25I thread. I didn't actually try any of it yet but was interested in knowing what it was supposed to look like. Thanks to those who responded. I don't know what I got sent the first time but it sure wasn't 25I. I just got a sample of the company's new batch and it looks like it's supposed to, a fine white powder which is not at all dense and not at all granular. So soon I will try it and tell you what the effects are like in my opinion. Sorry if I bored you by discussing aspects of 25I other than its effects, which this forum was already full of anyway.


----------



## psykap

Anybody has experience with 25I-NBMD ? Soon I should have small quantities and I am wondering  how is comparison. How do you think it will be also very psychedelic as 25I-NBOMe?  . At the moment I do not  tried 25I-NBOMe . First test for  few days . I heard also that 25I-NBMD is much better soluble  than NBOMe.


----------



## jason7

Tried 25I with MSM as a cut. 1 mg got me twice as high as I ever want to be again. Kind of like having a jackhammer attached to your pelvis. All I did was keep clicking through channels on TV and never finding anything good, like for hours. How come there's never anything good on?


----------



## jason7

That was pretty brutal, I must say. It was 1 part NBOMe/ 9 parts pure MSM crystals. I took two 5 mg doses of the mixture about 30 minutes apart. ROA was dumping it under my tongue, keeping in mouth for about 30 minutes. Bitter taste, no irritation or anything though. The MSM seems to help absorption. Shouldn't have taken the second dose. A general feeling of unease throughout. Lack of appetite. No clear patterns but just lines everywhere sort of thing. Can't really say I enjoyed it. I think I might actually like 25C more, though they're pretty similar. I had clearer CEVs with it, as I recall. 1 mg of 25I with MSM is pretty hard on your system, with the rather severe tremors and all. 500 mcg should be enough. Takes a while to kick in fully so you think you need more but you really don't.


----------



## jason7

So my opinion of 25I right now is that it's definitely not a replacement for LSD. Body load rather drastic and nowhere near as good visuals. To me it felt a lot like the parent 2CI, just more potent and somewhat less nausea. There was still some nausea and general gastro discomfort. I just felt quite uncomfortable most of the time. The only thing I can still try is taking diphenhydramine beforehand. That might fix it. You don't realize how unique LSD is until you try to find something else that will have similar effects. Haven't found anything that comes close to matching it yet. Shame it's so hard to get. I'll try the diphenhydramine experiment next weekend. I should also try nasal admin next time. I'll just snort the powder instead of putting it under my tongue.


----------



## cryptix420

^ there's usually a complete lack of body load...interesting you say you had one. I will report back with my own personal finding later this week.


----------



## Survived Abortion

jason7 said:


> So my opinion of 25I right now is that it's definitely not a replacement for LSD. Body load rather drastic and nowhere near as good visuals. To me it felt a lot like the parent 2CI, just more potent and somewhat less nausea. There was still some nausea and general gastro discomfort. I just felt quite uncomfortable most of the time. The only thing I can still try is taking diphenhydramine beforehand. That might fix it. You don't realize how unique LSD is until you try to find something else that will have similar effects. Haven't found anything that comes close to matching it yet. Shame it's so hard to get. I'll try the diphenhydramine experiment next weekend. I should also try nasal admin next time. I'll just snort the powder instead of putting it under my tongue.



If you go in to every trial with an RC hoping that it replaces LSD then you will be disappointed, naturally. If 2C-E had been invented before LSD, you might be hoping that LSD was a great 2C-E replacement, which it wouldn't be. Treat every psychedelic as a new compound to explore with child-like wonder rather than wishing it compares to LSD, and that will liberate you from the self-limiting desire for all RCs to compare to LSD.


----------



## cryptix420

Getting some blotters of this compound tomorrow...extremely intrigued and excited to try it. Anyone have any tips on ingesting? Does it work best simply held under the tongue? The blotters have already been complexed with HPBCD and are reportedly 500ug.

If it's anything at all like LSD, I'll probably end up combining it with MDMA, as I've just come across some very good rolls and it's been 6 months since my last experience. I'll report back here of course with the results of my 'research' hehe.


----------



## Allaround

cryptix420 said:


> If it's anything at all like LSD, I'll probably end up combining it with MDMA, as I've just come across some very good rolls and it's been 6 months since my last experience. I'll report back here of course with the results of my 'research' hehe.



Yes, please report back - especially if you try it in combination with MDMA (although I am not suggesting that simply because this chemical is so new and unresearched).


----------



## PippUK

Tested a bit last week. First dose at a roughly half miligram by solution and syringe calibration. At 1.5 hours I sensed the 2c signature but with slightly more pronounced bodily stimulation, which leant itself nicely to lovemaking. A second half mg at 2 hours and by 4 hours it began to manifest more tangibly.
  The visuals were of similar geometric, textural and colour form as 2CI, but they seemed on a larger scale. This was a really interesting and enjoyable aspect from an aesthetic point of view. Thinking of a kind of Tonka toy scale compared to Hot Wheels! 
  Lovely physical aspects, hinting towards DOx feelings but without such driving energy. 
  This is a truly nice material, and with minimal next day consequences. I slept OK after a strong Good-Night joint, but I suspect I would have had a restless night after a higher dose. It might be nice to dose an empathogen over the top at an opportune moment. 25I-NBOMe feels no more physically threatening than 2cs and less so than DOx provided care is taken with dosing calibration, and patience before re-dosing.
  YMMV of course. Take care with these materials - Pipp


----------



## teh1buck

Any insights or suggestions regarding consuming 25I for a rave/show? I have yet to try it or even acquire it at all, but am highly considering it since it has came available to me recently. It seems pretty clean and manageable from what I've read, and music appreciation seems to be through the roof; something required for a show, obv. Also motor skills seem to be kept intact also, so walking/dancing/interacting with people shouldn't be that hard, correct? 

Also, what about flipping this with MDMA? Has this even been attempted by many people? I just have to ask, 2c-e + MDMA is a favorite rave combo of mine and I can't really see any reason biochemically why this wouldn't work out amazingly. Enlighten me if you know otherwise


----------



## sml-la

I ordered 250mg of 25i-NBOMe Hcl (non-complexed) a few weeks ago, receiving a grainy, brown powder about a week and half, or two weeks ago.  I have yet to try it myself (having a slight distaste for phenthylamine compounds, except for DOC, 2c-B, and 6-APB) for I have been sitting on a fair amount of some really clean L, as a result having consolidated my trips to that.  I have had 7 friends test the compound, all with incredible results, though the dosage has greatly varied between all of them.  Two friends tried splitting 5mg, intra-nasally in very conservative rations until the 5mg was gone, both documenting threshold effects, if any.  A night or two later three friends collectively had 20mg of the compound, one friend snorting the whole 10mg in one go, and the other two splitting 10mg in half, all in one go.  All three of them enjoyed it immensly, the two who snorted 5mg said it was very reminiscent of 40-50mg of 2c-I, though more visual.  The one who snorted 10mg said he had never tripped that hard in his life (I should document that all of them were suggested to do the smallest amount possible, and climb their way up.  Fast forward a few nights, the original two friends with another two friends split 20mg.  the original two still weren't satisfied, though the other two said they had never tripped that hard off of anything else (though their experiences are limited, with only medium-doses of RC's).  The other two split another 10mg, and finally reached a very satiable peak.  I don't know how to take all that input, but just passing along my findings.  Very interested in giving this one a go in the reasonably-near future.


----------



## Addam

^^^
This doesn't sound right at all. The doses are waaaay off, the appearance is waaaay off (from anything that I've heard about being distributed). 
I'd say the actual identity of what you were supplied is in question.  In fact I'd go so far as to say it is not 25I-NBOMe, but any guess as to what it actually is would be only speculation.  Who knows, maybe some sort of cut was thrown on it. Which could explain the varying doses you noted (hot pockets in the mixture perhaps?)

Also, wouldn't you say it is more ethical to have tried something yourself before handing it out like that? Just sayin', not trying to lecture... I don't know how I'd feel about giving something to a friend when I don't know what the hell it's going to do or how much(roughly) they should take.


----------



## cryptix420

Just sampled this 25i-NBOMe for myself for the first time tonight, held the blotters (they had already been complexed with HPBCD) on my gums and under my tongue....I am very pleasantly surprised by the benign nature of this chemical. It has already earned a place in my heart amongst LSD, shrooms, and MDMA. This is a truly stand alone experience, something special. The entire time I was tripping I just felt extremely positive and had a very pleasant body high. I noticed there was even less of a body load than I get from LSD. Aside from a bit of muscle tension while peaking this is extremely easy on the body. Dosed at 3pm, came on around 5 and was tripping hard until 9 or 10, coming down mostly now and its 1 AM. Waves of euphoria came and kept getting stronger each time. Made my smell and sight very very enhanced, everything smelled extremely pleasant and I almost felt a nootropic like effect from the heightened mental activity, perhaps because of how incredibly lucid you remain while under the influence of this substance. This psychedelic pairs incredibly well with cannabis, it really took smoking weed to smoke crazy places for me tonight. I was taking bong rips and having my head fall out sideways for a second then come back in. Just very euphoric honestly, it enhanced every feeling I was having but in such a positive way. Another amazing thing is how I kept my appetite the whole time I was tripping. For the duration of the trip, I ate oatmeal, chili, and poptarts...something that would be impossible for me on LSD. It was very easy to be around my non tripper roommates without appearing suspicious. I can't state enough how POSITIVE this one feels. Every thing just feels good, makes me laugh, smile, tingle, i don't know this is just one happy, fantastic psychedelic. I'll need to explore further before I can really expound upon the visuals....they were definitely there and beautiful, but very unique and EXTREMELY colorful. I only took 500 micrograms, plan on taking more soon. I've got a bit of a headache at the moment (also took MDMA last night) so who knows that the cause is. Overall very very good experience. Adding MDMA to this doesn't really seem necessary. Instead of with LSD + E where the MDMA is adding a whole layer of warmth, love, empathy, euphoria, and positivity to the acid trip, all these elements are already present in the trip already. Taking MDMA would only enhance parts of the 25i-NBOMe experience that already exist.

Can't wait to try more!



edit: it's the next day and i'm feeling good aside from the usual back pain, and a bit of extra tiredness. Feel very good about the experience and am very much looking forward to the next trial when my gf will be joining me.

oh, I also think it's worth mentioning that after taking this compound my nicotine cravings immediately stopped and have not returned since. Granted I'm not a heavy long time smoker, but I have been smoking off and on for a couple years and I'd really like to kick it for good. I feel that the therapeutic potential of this substance is colossal.


----------



## cryptix420

Sweet mother of god....

just experienced the true power of this chemical at 3.75mg. Holy christ. I think I like it more than LSD. The screen is still melting as I type this almost 12 hours after dosing.

Definitely going to write a trip report later...most phenomenal visuals I've ever had in my life, and I've smoked DMT, lemon tek'd 7g of homegrown shrooms, and taken a bunch of acid. This just blew them all away, tons and tons of therapeutic potential. So much good to say about this chemical. So extraordinarily colorful colors! Goes incredibly well with weed. After each toke the visuals get a bit brighter and more intense and it feels so damn good! This is seriously a must try psychedelic.


I'll post the full report later.


----------



## Jesusgreen

sml-la, those nasal doses sound insanely high. I'd question the authenticity or quality of what you have, and be very careful dosing it if you do decide to try it yourself.

It'd also be a very bad idea for anyone try to emulate a 10mg nasal dose, that sounds very irresponsible and risky.


----------



## cryptix420

So, I'm not the greatest writer, but here is my trip report none the less -



	Hello there, I'm here to report on my experience a couple nights ago with this novel compound, 25i-NBOMe, or 2c-i-NBOME, I see it written so many different ways. I have a fair amount of experience with other substances, including cannabis, LSD, magic mushrooms, salvia, DXM, MDMA, various 2c-x's, MDPV, DMT, and a few opiates. I'm a 21 year old guy and live a very healthy lifestyle, eating organically, and exercising a lot as I don't own a car so I walk/take the bus most places. 

	I received the blotters, I was told they had 500 micrograms each of the 25i. I first tested 750ug (1.5 blotters) and had a very enjoyable night. Good visuals, lots of energy, no anxiety, great body feel, mood lift, lasted about 10 hours total from start to sleep. This experience was nothing compared to the actual trip I had after that. 

	Well, knowing the compound was safe to ingest and seemed to be what it was supposed to be, I decided to take the plunge and ingest 3.75mg (7.5 blotters). What I am about to attempt to describe was to be the most profound and intense psychedelic experience of my life. I ingested the 3.75mg at around 11:00pm.

T+0:00 - Blotters are placed under tongue. For the next 30 minutes I go from keeping it under my tongue or against my cheek or pressed against my gums, as the chemical supposedly does not work when taken orally. My blotters had already been complexed by 2-Hydroxypropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrindsad so they were ready for ingestion. After a few minutes I noticed a very strong bitter taste, and a mild numbing effect on my tongue. For the next hour or so, I could feel a body buzz starting, a general feeling of being filled with energy. It felt very good, and there was absolutely no anxiety to speak of….something uncommon for me on the come-up of any psych, even MDMA. 

T+ 1:30 - This is when I could really start to notice things kicking in. A lot of generic 'activity' in my visual field, ie a snowy sort of look, like static on the tv. It gives me the feeling that everything is full of life & energy, from the carpet to the walls to the posters, all very very alive. It's a good feeling. I remember a very strong mood lift, still zero anxiety (I think it's worth mentioning I suffer from general anxiety very bad in my day to day life) just overall a very pleasant feeling in the mind and body. No nausea or anything. 

T+ 2:30 - I remember my mind starting to be blown to bits at this point. The visuals started to resemble something I had only had on my very first and best LSD trip. Seeing lots of color, LOTS of color, very novel colors too. A sort of turquoise and maroon and yellow were the main themes. Everything happened very fast so I'll try to describe it best as I can, but I was extremely overwhelmed by the intensity and awesomeness of the visuals. Everything in the world started to…. b r e a k … d     o    w     n …….Time dilation got very intense and I felt as if I could hear every single tick of energy coming out of my headphones in the form of music, every thought I had….I could feel it going from this neuron to that one, and on and on, I just began to understand the universe in a way it seems only God could. All of a sudden these 'ropes' started to appear. The entire room was full of them. What was once empty space, or just air, was replaced by these long, dangly, serpent looking threads that made up the entire world. I no longer just 'saw' anything, it was all coming at me, entering me, there was just nothing but pure energy all around me and I was able to sense it for the first time ever. Something VERY similar happened the first time I did LSD. I started to see the same rope like objects, and when it first happens they start coming out from all around you and slowly descend DIRECTLY onto your pupil, you can't escape it because it's everywhere.  Goddamn I wish I could describe this better. I remember thinking I was traveling through my own DNA the first time it happened on LSD, as the ropes have the same twisty, double helix sort of structure. Actually I think it looks most similar to a twizzler, except each little strand is a different color. It was just so incredible to realize that there really is no space in the entire universe, we just lack the ability to sense what is there normally. Kind of like the big mystery of Dark Matter. Also at this point the visuals were basically tangible. I could wave my hand in the air and felt as if I was playing with the energy surrounding me, it was absolute nirvana. I remember thinking to myself what a success the blotters had been, as I was laying in my bed in complete darkness staring at my hand, but having the best time of my life. A lot of the visuals consisted of infinite numbers of random shapes, all very reminiscent of the Matrix coding, just much more colorful and happy feeling. There were also massive amounts of trailing, I could wave my hand around in the air creating the most beautiful disturbances in the fields of energy all around me. It was like when you splash in the water and create all the ripples, except this was just air. Everything I would do in the world was just so beautiful, I thought to myself I couldn't believe I was surrounded by this beauty all day everyday, I just have to remind myself it's there even when I can't see it. I can't describe enough how interactive these visuals are, it's seriously unreal. 

As for the closed eye visuals, they were equally as epic. Even 7g of strong lemon tek'd mushrooms didn't come close to producing this level of visuals. They were so incredibly complex! They felt very futuristic, I remember lots of warpy, organic, random shapes happening, with a level of color complexity I'd never seen before. The colors!! AH! I can't stop thinking about all the colors. When I would close my eyes I had the feeling that I, for the first time ever, could FEEL my entire being. Every thought process, every pump of blood, every firing of chemicals between neurons, I could feel it ALL. In this regard it feels extremely therapeutic, as you can identify a lot of interesting things in the way you think and process things in your mind. It was an unprecedented amount of fun as well, as 25i seems to present all these things to you in a nice, funky, mellow way. Funky, that's a word I would use to describe this drug, or maybe groovy. There wasn't a single negative moment in the whole trip, and every thought process manages to end up somewhere warm or funny or happy. 

T+ 4:00 - I know I experienced a lot of synesthesia around this point in the trip, I would wave my hand about in the air and it would cause a 'WAH WAH WAH WAH' sound….very weird. Synesthesia is a really hard thing to describe, but those that have gone through it probably know what I mean. I remember reading a long time ago that phenethylamines are supposed to help you relate to things in a more worldly, personal way; rather than the more cosmic feeling offered by LSD or DMT. I have to agree with this. 25i made me think mainly about the relationships I had with various people in my life, how I interacted with those people, how I felt about those people, just a lot of stuff about people. I welcome this as I've got a lot of social anxiety, yet I know bringing other people into your life is the only way to real happiness. The feeling I had was so incredible, I was filled with genuine sadness thinking about the lack of a relationship I have with a mother. It's hard for me to be honest with myself, but I do miss her and want to make more of an effort to get to know her. I began to cry thinking of the quote 'you only know what you have when it's gone' wanting to not be one of those people, and instead seize the day and appreciate the people that I have in my life. I get so stuck in picking out things I don't like about people/judging people, that nobody ends up being 'good enough' for me. This trip inspired me to reach out to many people in my life and strengthen the bonds that make life worth living.

T+ 6:00 - The visuals have calmed down quite a bit now, and I'm left in the most incredibly warm afterglow. My eyes are still fully dilated and there's still a lot of visual activity, but nothing like the universe splitting I'd seen a few hours ago. Still tons of beautiful color speckled throughout my vision, a general vibe of rainbowgasm. It's nice, because when I take LSD, on the comedown looking at the floor in the bathroom and the like can be quite disgusting, but not so with this one. Everything retains a positive, warm, colorful feel for the entirety of the trip, all the way up to 12+ hours. My girlfriend is waking up around this time and getting ready to go to work. I was still very full of energy and happiness so I made a nice oatmeal and yerba mate breakfast. That's another great thing about this compound, absolutely zero effects on appetite. I snacked on nuts throughout the whole trip, and ate quite a lot during the morning despite still being at a ++ until around t+ 12:00. I smoked a bit of weed at this point and it combined VERY, VERY well with the trip. I'm talking like PB&J, black & white, starchy & hutch, john lennon & yoko ono, milk & cookies, green eggs & ham, macaroni & cheese good here. This combo just feels RIGHT. All the visual came rushing back in a more mellow, groovy way if you will. It also made them brighter in a way, and it just FELT more intense. The weed doesn't last nearly as long though so I have to smoke a lot more. I remember reading somewhere that 25i has affinity for opioid receptors…this would make a lot of sense, as it is VERY easy to lay in one position for a long period of time, something that's IMPOSSIBLE for me on LSD. Could also be why it's so good with weed. The body is very vey comfy the entire time for me when I take this.

T+ 8:00 - I walked with my girlfriend to the bus stop so she could go to work. That was the most beautiful walk I'd been on in my life, and I'd never been in such a fantastic mood. I was pretty damn down in the dumps for the few days before this I might add. There was SO much color in absolutely everything! The black asphalt on the road might as well have been made of skittles, and the clouds and sky had the beautiful wispy trippy look, very very like LSD. I felt like I had download 100 new colors in to my brain. Where did all this color come from?! It was great though. My girlfriend remarked how lively I was. I live up on a hill by the ocean so it was awesome you can imagine, nice ocean breeze, you can see the ocean in the distance, perfect weather, I felt like I'd been born again. And not because of jesus lol. Unless you wanna consider 25i jesus, I might be down with that. Anyway the walk to the bus stop is pretty far, takes about 40 mins just one way, so it was surprising I still had all the energy to make the walk after tripping balls all night. I might also add I had taken MDMA for the first time in 6 months 2 days prior to this experience, so take that for what you will. I thought about adding MDMA to this experience but I just didn't feel it was necessary. Hell I usually smoke weed everytime I trip, and not just once, like the whole time. I just love weed. This is the first psychedelic I've done where I waited over 6 hours to smoke. On the walk home I started to notice the only troubling side effect, which was some vasoconstriction. Or at least that's what I imagine it feels like. I used to smoke cigarettes so I'm familiar with the hand/foot vasoconstriction there. With this chem though it's all over the body, it got a bit painful in my feet when I was walking home, but other than that it wasn't too bad. 

T+ 10:00 - Back home, I smoked some more weed and had a bit of a tincture made of hash/olive oil. Felt reeaaalll niiicee  I think I ate quite a bit of food and then laid now and surfed the web for a bit. It took me an hour or two (perhaps once the edible kicked in) to finally fall asleep, then I slept for about 6 hours and woke up feeling fantastic, vasoconstriction was gone as well. A bit tired, a tad bit moody, but fantastic otherwise  This is the experience I've been looking for since I started using psychedelics about 2 years ago. Every time I've taken LSD something like this is what I'd hoped for…….so fantastic. It's going to take a while to integrate this one.

New favorite psychedelic hands down!




edit: also, shortly after ingesting this chemical, i broke my last cigarette in half and haven't looked back since.


----------



## freehugs

cryptix420 said:


> So, I'm not the greatest writer, but here is my trip report none the less -
> 
> 
> 
> Hello there, I'm here to report on my experience a couple nights ago with this novel compound, 25i-NBOMe, or 2c-i-NBOME, I see it written so many different ways. I have a fair amount of experience with other substances, including cannabis, LSD, magic mushrooms, salvia, DXM, MDMA, various 2c-x's, MDPV, DMT, and a few opiates. I'm a 21 year old guy and live a very healthy lifestyle, eating organically, and exercising a lot as I don't own a car so I walk/take the bus most places.
> 
> I received the blotters, I was told they had 500 micrograms each of the 25i. I first tested 750ug (1.5 blotters) and had a very enjoyable night. Good visuals, lots of energy, no anxiety, great body feel, mood lift, lasted about 10 hours total from start to sleep. This experience was nothing compared to the actual trip I had after that.
> 
> Well, knowing the compound was safe to ingest and seemed to be what it was supposed to be, I decided to take the plunge and ingest 3.75mg (7.5 blotters). What I am about to attempt to describe was to be the most profound and intense psychedelic experience of my life. I ingested the 3.75mg at around 11:00pm.
> 
> T+0:00 - Blotters are placed under tongue. For the next 30 minutes I go from keeping it under my tongue or against my cheek or pressed against my gums, as the chemical supposedly does not work when taken orally. My blotters had already been complexed by 2-Hydroxypropyl-Beta-Cyclodextrindsad so they were ready for ingestion. After a few minutes I noticed a very strong bitter taste, and a mild numbing effect on my tongue. For the next hour or so, I could feel a body buzz starting, a general feeling of being filled with energy. It felt very good, and there was absolutely no anxiety to speak of….something uncommon for me on the come-up of any psych, even MDMA.
> 
> T+ 1:30 - This is when I could really start to notice things kicking in. A lot of generic 'activity' in my visual field, ie a snowy sort of look, like static on the tv. It gives me the feeling that everything is full of life & energy, from the carpet to the walls to the posters, all very very alive. It's a good feeling. I remember a very strong mood lift, still zero anxiety (I think it's worth mentioning I suffer from general anxiety very bad in my day to day life) just overall a very pleasant feeling in the mind and body. No nausea or anything.
> 
> T+ 2:30 - I remember my mind starting to be blown to bits at this point. The visuals started to resemble something I had only had on my very first and best LSD trip. Seeing lots of color, LOTS of color, very novel colors too. A sort of turquoise and maroon and yellow were the main themes. Everything happened very fast so I'll try to describe it best as I can, but I was extremely overwhelmed by the intensity and awesomeness of the visuals. Everything in the world started to…. b r e a k … d     o    w     n …….Time dilation got very intense and I felt as if I could hear every single tick of energy coming out of my headphones in the form of music, every thought I had….I could feel it going from this neuron to that one, and on and on, I just began to understand the universe in a way it seems only God could. All of a sudden these 'ropes' started to appear. The entire room was full of them. What was once empty space, or just air, was replaced by these long, dangly, serpent looking threads that made up the entire world. I no longer just 'saw' anything, it was all coming at me, entering me, there was just nothing but pure energy all around me and I was able to sense it for the first time ever. Something VERY similar happened the first time I did LSD. I started to see the same rope like objects, and when it first happens they start coming out from all around you and slowly descend DIRECTLY onto your pupil, you can't escape it because it's everywhere.  Goddamn I wish I could describe this better. I remember thinking I was traveling through my own DNA the first time it happened on LSD, as the ropes have the same twisty, double helix sort of structure. Actually I think it looks most similar to a twizzler, except each little strand is a different color. It was just so incredible to realize that there really is no space in the entire universe, we just lack the ability to sense what is there normally. Kind of like the big mystery of Dark Matter. Also at this point the visuals were basically tangible. I could wave my hand in the air and felt as if I was playing with the energy surrounding me, it was absolute nirvana. I remember thinking to myself what a success the blotters had been, as I was laying in my bed in complete darkness staring at my hand, but having the best time of my life. A lot of the visuals consisted of infinite numbers of random shapes, all very reminiscent of the Matrix coding, just much more colorful and happy feeling. There were also massive amounts of trailing, I could wave my hand around in the air creating the most beautiful disturbances in the fields of energy all around me. It was like when you splash in the water and create all the ripples, except this was just air. Everything I would do in the world was just so beautiful, I thought to myself I couldn't believe I was surrounded by this beauty all day everyday, I just have to remind myself it's there even when I can't see it. I can't describe enough how interactive these visuals are, it's seriously unreal.
> 
> As for the closed eye visuals, they were equally as epic. Even 7g of strong lemon tek'd mushrooms didn't come close to producing this level of visuals. They were so incredibly complex! They felt very futuristic, I remember lots of warpy, organic, random shapes happening, with a level of color complexity I'd never seen before. The colors!! AH! I can't stop thinking about all the colors. When I would close my eyes I had the feeling that I, for the first time ever, could FEEL my entire being. Every thought process, every pump of blood, every firing of chemicals between neurons, I could feel it ALL. In this regard it feels extremely therapeutic, as you can identify a lot of interesting things in the way you think and process things in your mind. It was an unprecedented amount of fun as well, as 25i seems to present all these things to you in a nice, funky, mellow way. Funky, that's a word I would use to describe this drug, or maybe groovy. There wasn't a single negative moment in the whole trip, and every thought process manages to end up somewhere warm or funny or happy.
> 
> T+ 4:00 - I know I experienced a lot of synesthesia around this point in the trip, I would wave my hand about in the air and it would cause a 'WAH WAH WAH WAH' sound….very weird. Synesthesia is a really hard thing to describe, but those that have gone through it probably know what I mean. I remember reading a long time ago that phenethylamines are supposed to help you relate to things in a more worldly, personal way; rather than the more cosmic feeling offered by LSD or DMT. I have to agree with this. 25i made me think mainly about the relationships I had with various people in my life, how I interacted with those people, how I felt about those people, just a lot of stuff about people. I welcome this as I've got a lot of social anxiety, yet I know bringing other people into your life is the only way to real happiness. The feeling I had was so incredible, I was filled with genuine sadness thinking about the lack of a relationship I have with a mother. It's hard for me to be honest with myself, but I do miss her and want to make more of an effort to get to know her. I began to cry thinking of the quote 'you only know what you have when it's gone' wanting to not be one of those people, and instead seize the day and appreciate the people that I have in my life. I get so stuck in picking out things I don't like about people/judging people, that nobody ends up being 'good enough' for me. This trip inspired me to reach out to many people in my life and strengthen the bonds that make life worth living.
> 
> T+ 6:00 - The visuals have calmed down quite a bit now, and I'm left in the most incredibly warm afterglow. My eyes are still fully dilated and there's still a lot of visual activity, but nothing like the universe splitting I'd seen a few hours ago. Still tons of beautiful color speckled throughout my vision, a general vibe of rainbowgasm. It's nice, because when I take LSD, on the comedown looking at the floor in the bathroom and the like can be quite disgusting, but not so with this one. Everything retains a positive, warm, colorful feel for the entirety of the trip, all the way up to 12+ hours. My girlfriend is waking up around this time and getting ready to go to work. I was still very full of energy and happiness so I made a nice oatmeal and yerba mate breakfast. That's another great thing about this compound, absolutely zero effects on appetite. I snacked on nuts throughout the whole trip, and ate quite a lot during the morning despite still being at a ++ until around t+ 12:00. I smoked a bit of weed at this point and it combined VERY, VERY well with the trip. I'm talking like PB&J, black & white, starchy & hutch, john lennon & yoko ono, milk & cookies, green eggs & ham, macaroni & cheese good here. This combo just feels RIGHT. All the visual came rushing back in a more mellow, groovy way if you will. It also made them brighter in a way, and it just FELT more intense. The weed doesn't last nearly as long though so I have to smoke a lot more. I remember reading somewhere that 25i has affinity for opioid receptors…this would make a lot of sense, as it is VERY easy to lay in one position for a long period of time, something that's IMPOSSIBLE for me on LSD. Could also be why it's so good with weed. The body is very vey comfy the entire time for me when I take this.
> 
> T+ 8:00 - I walked with my girlfriend to the bus stop so she could go to work. That was the most beautiful walk I'd been on in my life, and I'd never been in such a fantastic mood. I was pretty damn down in the dumps for the few days before this I might add. There was SO much color in absolutely everything! The black asphalt on the road might as well have been made of skittles, and the clouds and sky had the beautiful wispy trippy look, very very like LSD. I felt like I had download 100 new colors in to my brain. Where did all this color come from?! It was great though. My girlfriend remarked how lively I was. I live up on a hill by the ocean so it was awesome you can imagine, nice ocean breeze, you can see the ocean in the distance, perfect weather, I felt like I'd been born again. And not because of jesus lol. Unless you wanna consider 25i jesus, I might be down with that. Anyway the walk to the bus stop is pretty far, takes about 40 mins just one way, so it was surprising I still had all the energy to make the walk after tripping balls all night. I might also add I had taken MDMA for the first time in 6 months 2 days prior to this experience, so take that for what you will. I thought about adding MDMA to this experience but I just didn't feel it was necessary. Hell I usually smoke weed everytime I trip, and not just once, like the whole time. I just love weed. This is the first psychedelic I've done where I waited over 6 hours to smoke. On the walk home I started to notice the only troubling side effect, which was some vasoconstriction. Or at least that's what I imagine it feels like. I used to smoke cigarettes so I'm familiar with the hand/foot vasoconstriction there. With this chem though it's all over the body, it got a bit painful in my feet when I was walking home, but other than that it wasn't too bad.
> 
> T+ 10:00 - Back home, I smoked some more weed and had a bit of a tincture made of hash/olive oil. Felt reeaaalll niiicee  I think I ate quite a bit of food and then laid now and surfed the web for a bit. It took me an hour or two (perhaps once the edible kicked in) to finally fall asleep, then I slept for about 6 hours and woke up feeling fantastic, vasoconstriction was gone as well. A bit tired, a tad bit moody, but fantastic otherwise  This is the experience I've been looking for since I started using psychedelics about 2 years ago. Every time I've taken LSD something like this is what I'd hoped for…….so fantastic. It's going to take a while to integrate this one.
> 
> New favorite psychedelic hands down!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: also, shortly after ingesting this chemical, i broke my last cigarette in half and haven't looked back since.



Quality read my friend!  I can't wait for my letter to come in


----------



## sml-la

Jesusgreen said:


> sml-la, those nasal doses sound insanely high. I'd question the authenticity or quality of what you have, and be very careful dosing it if you do decide to try it yourself.
> 
> It'd also be a very bad idea for anyone try to emulate a 10mg nasal dose, that sounds very irresponsible and risky.



Last night I was able to try this compound out myself.  I did 2mg and tripped ridiculous.  The compound didn't burn at all going in, and left a somewhat distinct residual odor on the inside of my nose for a few minutes.  I reached peak effects probably about an hour after sniffing it, and it hit me like a ton of bricks when I smoked some JWH shortly after peaking.  Very very interesting experience.  Visually, it was incredibly reminiscent of LSD.  Patterning, fractalization, with Reg/Green/Blue flashes on wwhite walls, etc.  Overall, it was a very INTERESTING experience, though I don't know if it was particularly enjoyable.  Sensory-wise it was very pleasant, but I felt very uncomfortable physically (this becoming a prominent factor after smoking JWH, though it bothered me from the get-go).  A few friends clarified they did 2.5mg on two separate occasions within a few hours apart to reach their satisfactory level.  I'd definitely like to try this compound in the 5mg range, because that seems to be where all the magic is, based on the feedback I've gotten.


----------



## kingme

5mg? insufflated? isnt that... a lot?

most people report effects ~500mcg... including the above posted TR that states a dose of 3 75.... id be worried to take it that high myself


----------



## cryptix420

sometimes you gotta be adventurous man....think when LSD first came out, what if you were afraid to take a high dose? think what you'd have missed out on..


besides, i sampled it in lower doses prior to the big dose, and it felt extremely gentle on the body and mind, so I did not fear taking it further.


----------



## ColdArmySoldier

Great stuff cryptix420! I just got some HPBCD along with 25i-NBOMe and will be making my blotter this week (following tregar's method). Hope that my experience is as epic as all of the other buccal experiments!


----------



## blobbymahn

What's tregar's method if you don't mind?


----------



## Solipsis

blobbymahn said:


> What's tregar's method if you don't mind?



See here:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/551797-The-Big-amp-Dandy-25I-NBOMe-Thread?p=9845593#post9845593

And also a little here:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/551797-The-Big-amp-Dandy-25I-NBOMe-Thread?p=9857377#post9857377

If you are wondering how I found this: at the top there is a function 'search this thread',  I went advanced and
search for the username tregar. I was already quite sure that he had described something like this either in this
thread or in the 25C-NBOMe thread.

I'm also getting a little HPBCD - when I get the chance I will compare routes of administration using it to my method
involving a mannitol carrier. Unfortunately it can be quite a long while before I expect to get a chance to make that
comparison (medication contraindication for indefinite period).


----------



## mrdqb

quick question i ordered 50mgs of this 25i stuff. wasn't sure about how it worked so i started reading into this. I'm going to get it in next week, but it seems that the general consensus here is that u need to  do a hpbcd complex to use it accurately. So i have two questions , i see some cheep magnetic stirrers on ebay and on google . does it matter if u use a cheap stirrer? i'm not planning on investing too much into this. Also is there anyway you can just plain old snort it? i have a mg scale but it's probably only accurate up to 5mgs. so if i measure 5mgs and then tried to divide it in 5 lines, could i just inssuflate one line and get an effect? i realize that 1mg is probably almost microscopic so it would be hard to tell if that 1mg actually made it ino ur nasal cavity. thanks.


----------



## Jesusgreen

We don't help you eyeball here. Speaking from experience, eyeballing *WILL* get you in shit.

You need a microgram scale really, since your milligram scale probably has an error margin of 2-3mg either way, which with most drugs is tiny - but with this stuff you'd likely be in way over your head.

Alternatively, you can weigh out an amount, say 50mg, then place it in a solution, say 100ml. Now whenever you take 1ml of the liquid you're taking 500 mics (0.5mg), so dosing smaller amounts is suddenly possibly without a microgram scale :D


----------



## cryptix420

I've heard taking it sublingually/bucally is much better than insufflation. I took 3.75mg under my tongue and it was incredibly awesome. the profound psychedelic aspects manifest most with the afore mentioned ROA's. Just put the time in to make a solution and take it in your mouth. Snorting stuff is bad for you anyway. 


Not really a great idea to order 50mg of something you're not prepared to handle


----------



## mrdqb

You are right I'm not sure I would of ordered it if I knew the equipment and supplies needed to prepare it for administration. I'm used to the type of stuff that is ready to use out of the bag or box. I guess I will do my best using Tregar's method. On the bright side if I do get it right I will have learned a new skill:D And besides how would you know if you can handle something before you try it? i'm a noob to psychedlics but every drug has potential negative outcome so there is always a risk something might go wrong.


----------



## till101

hi, why is HPBCD complexed 25i said to be better ?
would be just 1mg of the hcl be a strong trip ? 
thx


----------



## Thorns Have Roses

till101 said:


> hi, why is HPBCD complexed 25i said to be better ?



HPBCD would increase absorption of the drug across mucus membranes.


----------



## Transform

How easy is HPBCD to get a hold of? In the UK, the only entry on an auction site is 100g from the US for $200, and I can't find it anywhere else. Are people able to get this in suitable amounts or is it just people with access to lab suppliers and the like?


----------



## till101

how much more effective is it with hpbcd ?


----------



## mrdqb

i did a google search on it and found a site that sells it for $5.25 a gram in the US


----------



## kingme

so lets say i want to take some sublingually. i have 10mg disolved in 10ml of water. thats 1mg/ml. 
would 1 ml held under the tongue be effective or would be it be too much for a first time? how do you hold 1ml of a liquid under the tongue without it getting swallowed up with saliva?


----------



## tryp2fun

Never Knows Best said:


> HPBCD would increase absorption of the drug across mucus membranes.



Despite what Tregar says, I have read the research papers on HPBCD, and it really only affects insoluble compounds like steroids.  The data clearly shows that there is very little effect on compounds which are already water-soluble.  It works by increasing the concentration of compounds in solution, but if they are already in solution, there is no benefit.  There seems to be some 25I free base going around being sold as HCl salt, and HPBCD will certainly help make that bioavailable.  The real hydrochloride will gain little benefit from HPBCD.  If too much is used, it would even reduce bioavailability of the HCl salt by shifting the equilibrium toward the complex, which does not cross membranes. So, if the compound you have will dissolve in water at a reasonable concentration (2 mg/mL is fine), you are good to go.  If it does not dissolve in water, then you need some HPBCD.


----------



## mrdqb

I thought the whole point of using HPBCD complex as Tregar described was to create a liquid solution that could accurately measure the amount of 25i-nbome per millileter. He doesn't say anything about HPBCD enhancing the 25i-nbome effects, and the solution he prepared was used in a buccal ROA not in a nasal ROA. Maybe I missed something but that's what I thought the whole point of using HPBCD was, to make the 25i-nbome chemical soluble in alcohol or water.


----------



## tryp2fun

mrdqb said:


> I thought the whole point of using HPBCD complex as Tregar described was to create a liquid solution that could accurately measure the amount of 25i-nbome per millileter. He doesn't say anything about HPBCD enhancing the 25i-nbome effects, and the solution he prepared was used in a buccal ROA not in a nasal ROA. Maybe I missed something but that's what I thought the whole point of using HPBCD was, to make the 25i-nbome chemical soluble in alcohol or water.



But if it is the HCl salt, it already is soluble in water.  He claimed that HPBCD increased the potency for buccal administration.


----------



## mrdqb

oh ok sorry, I probably should re-read the thread. my mistake. Is there a way of knowing whether you got the hcl or the freebase version? i'm not sure which one i ordered. if it's hcl do you still need to us a magnetic stirrer to properly mix the solution?  and if it's already water soluble i guess u don't need the hpbcd right?


----------



## Thorns Have Roses

tryp2fun said:


> Despite what Tregar says, I have read the research papers on HPBCD, and it really only affects insoluble compounds like steroids.  The data clearly shows that there is very little effect on compounds which are already water-soluble.  It works by increasing the concentration of compounds in solution, but if they are already in solution, there is no benefit.  There seems to be some 25I free base going around being sold as HCl salt, and HPBCD will certainly help make that bioavailable.  The real hydrochloride will gain little benefit from HPBCD.  If too much is used, it would even reduce bioavailability of the HCl salt by shifting the equilibrium toward the complex, which does not cross membranes. So, if the compound you have will dissolve in water at a reasonable concentration (2 mg/mL is fine), you are good to go.  If it does not dissolve in water, then you need some HPBCD.


 
Good catch, thank you for correcting me.


----------



## cryptix420

kingme said:


> so lets say i want to take some sublingually. i have 10mg disolved in 10ml of water. thats 1mg/ml.
> would 1 ml held under the tongue be effective or would be it be too much for a first time? how do you hold 1ml of a liquid under the tongue without it getting swallowed up with saliva?



Your best bet would probably be to put it on a tiny piece of paper.


----------



## mrdqb

mrdqb said:


> i did a google search on it and found a site that sells it for $5.25 a gram in the US



oops i just realized that site requires a 100 dollar minimum order. yikes!


----------



## Limitbreaker

I'm sorry, I may be a bit tired right now, but are you saying that HPBCD doesn't help with the strenght of 25I?


----------



## cryptix420

He's saying it's not necessary with 25I-NBOMe HCl, but that it would help with the freebase form.



If this is true, I would be very excited as I have access to the HCl form but haven't gotten any as I thought I would have to complex it for it to be active.


----------



## IamMe90

I did 1mg buccaly along with 13mg 2ce and it was fucking amazing. No body load, a nice euphoria, music is great, CEVs are INCREDIBLE - this was seriously fantastic. I have to consider the possibility that this will become my favorite psychedelic. I'm getting quite a bit more soon, so I will experiment with higher doses soon.


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

What is endotoxin-controlled HPBCD and how does it differ from other forms?


----------



## 2Hell_N_Back

I Found a small notepad with something very interesting written inside, so I thought this would be an appropriate place to post it.

The words that I now write are not mine, nor are the experiences.

Quote:

"I ordered two 10mg samples of 25I-NBOMe HCL from a very reputible vendor. When the package arrived I opened it and found two small vials of what appeared to be a white powder substance (10mg is a very small amount), the vials were properly marked, and came with MSDS sheets. One vial was labled 10mg, and the second was labled 12mg.

At 3:30pm I took the first test tube (10mg) and added 2ml purified water to it, just enough to see if it was hydrophobic, I then began to flick the tube with my middle finger causing it to mix, and much to my surprise it was extremely water soluble, after mixing this amount I then added another 8ml purified water and mixed completely, for a final mixture of 10mg 25I / 10ml pruified H2o, and let it sit for another four hours before mixing again.

At 7:30 pm I mixed it up again, and then pulled 0.75ml (750mics) into an empty insulin style syringe without the needle, and insufullated into my right nostril at 7:45pm.

First effects were felt within 2 minutes (+1), within 20 mins I was at +4, within 45 mins I was beginning to feel disconected from reality, and did all I could to hang onto my sanity....1hr in, and I'm now scared, I have now removed myself to the bedroom, and begin to think whats my next move, and what could I have done differently, I'm really scared at this point, And start thinking, what, or who can help me, How damned stupid am I, I did'nt put together an exit stratagy, Its now beyond my control, the extremely high level of anxiety, the feeling of shortness of breath, I can't get enough air, I'm hot, I'm cold.... Oh God Help Me, What Have I Done!!!

My wife is at home with me, and comes into the bedroom from time to time to check on me, but I'm in over my head, to a point I've never been before, and spent the next 3 hours on my knees at the foot of my bed, Thinking I would be much better off if I could just go unconcience, please knock me out, before I lose my mind.

By 11:45pm I have found my way back to a +3 / +4 level (colors, shapes, very thoughtful insights ect) but was so emotionally and physically drained at this point, It wasn't even enjoyable, and was able to fall to sleep by 4:30am.

In conclusion, I don't know what more I could have done to dose this RC more correctly, this is the type of RC that may be dosed good at 749.999mics, but then 750mics is way too much, No wiggle room for error with this one, This one only requires one speck of dust too much, and It then becomes a "Widow Maker", a "Daddy Taker", a "Father Stealer". So unless your a lab tech with the proper equipment for accurately measuring, STAY AWAY FROM THIS RC!!!

I've done LSD, Shrooms..... And anything else imaginable other than heroine, I was diagnosed with stage 4 non-hodgekins lymphoma cancer, and given a life expectancy of less than 3 mnths to live, for which I under went 6 rounds of some of the most intense chemo therapy treatments known to man, and I lost every hair on my body within one week after my first treatment. I promise you, I have seen the darkside, but this RC TOOK ME TO, AND THROUGH MY DARKEST HOUR TO DATE!!! LUCIFER LIVES HERE, BEWARE, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!"


----------



## Sappy_6794

...Holy shit...


----------



## cryptix420

Seems a little exaggerated. I took 500ug, 250ug, and 3.75mg all with fantastic effects, the latter being on the last page in a trip report. 

I think this report just further suggests that sublingual/buccal is the best ROA for this chem.


----------



## Jesusgreen

2Hell_N_Back. Please don't use the whole third person thing here. It does not protect you at all, and doesn't stand up in a court of law, it also makes your posts harder to read and those little third person intros take up valuable space and forum resources for nothing other than an annoyance.

No vendor talk.

And finally, I think you've misinterpreted Shulgin's scale:


> within 20 mins I was at +4, within 45 mins I was beginning to feel disconected from reality, and did all I could to hang onto my sanity



"beginning to feel disconnected from reality" isn't a ++++/+4 - so your 20 minute experience surely wasn't 

Aside from that, welcome to Bluelight.


----------



## IamMe90

Took 1mg buccaly with 10mg oral 2ce (I don't think the 2c-e contributed much to the effects as I am VERY experienced with both low and high dose 2c-e, as well as in combos, and I experienced literally zero of it's effects) 

Conclusion: 25i is a phenomenal psychedelic, one of the best, if not my favorite, of all time. Music sounded incredible, I had only fleeting nausea with no need to puke, a great euphoria and phenomenal CEVs. This trip was clean, deep, positive, visual and aural - pretty much the whole package. In a way it's what I expected LSD to be like in some manners before I tried it. 

I am so excited that I am getting a ton more of this, it will certainly be used. :D

edit: just realized I kind of posted this in the last page without remembering, o well lol


----------



## cryptix420

^ stoked someone else shares the same sentiment 

I tried last night a DXM + 25i combo....it was epic, to say the least. It was also my gf's first experience with the 25i (she took no DXM) but it was a ton of fun, tactile sensations better than I've ever experienced. We both feel beyond fantastic today as well.

So, I'd say DXM and 25i is a safe combo, my DXM was dosed at 350mg and 25i at 500ug.



Next...MDMA + 25i. I'm also getting aniracetam this week so it'll be fun to throw that in the mix.


----------



## mrdqb

I got my order of 50mg in the mail yesterday. Despite reading all the preparation techniques and methods, I made a hasty decision and I sprinkled a tiny amount of the powder onto a measuirng plate. it couldn't have been more than 3-5mgs. I insufflated a small line and then rubbed a little powder on my gums. Ok so immediatley after i did this i left the house to catch a bus , i was going to meet a friend in another part of town. i got on the bus at 2pm and was supposed to get to where i was going by 3:30pm. Right after i got on the bus and sat down , i started noticing the patterns on the bus seats wear oscillating/moving. AFter that I must have blacked out because I don't remember anything on the entire ride nor how i got off the bus. It was pretty scary. I think i may have taken too much. And this was my first time using psychedilics. Anyway I started to finally regain my consciousness at around 8pm, but i was still extremely dazed. I was wondering the streets in no specific direction, but suprisingly nothing happend to me , well at least that i know of. By the time i was coming down, I was still dazed and walking around but seemd to lose all fears and inhibitions. I didn't seem to care what happend to me.  It was kind of like mdma without the euphoria. I also felt like everything was happening in slow motion and i had some deeper level of perception that made me act different than i normally act. I finally found my way back to the bus and got back on to go home. I didn't realize that this chemical was producing crazy visuals untill i sat down and looked at my hands. They appeared to be melting and when i looked at people it seemed like they were getting puffy and swolen, but i could shake the viisuals by not focusing on them. The longer i stared at the weird visuals the more freakier i felt so i tried to just look out the window. when i ggot back home i was having heavy visual hallucinations all night. it wasn't bad though, everyting looked cool , the colors and patterns took life and form and everything seemed like candy. it was overall a pretty cool experience. but after i went to sleep and woke up the next day the visuals were gone. i tried to redose but nasally and orally but didn't get any effects. so there may be a very true theory behind the tolerance level develpoing really fast. I sent the rest of my order to  acouple friend sfor them to try so i don't have any more. but as soon as the place i ordered it from gets it back in stock, i may reorder.. This is now one of my fave rc's the other fave is Mxe..


----------



## MattPsy

^ Please stop using compounds like this, you are clearly too irresponsible. You order a compound commonly used in less than milligram doses, you estimate out an amount you say was between anywhere from 3 to 10 times the usual dose, take an unknown amount of this in several ways, and then act surprised when you lose control. Sound even slightly foolish?


----------



## Thorns Have Roses

^mrdpq, I hope you never do anything like that again. You could have seriously hurt yourself wandering around in such a state! Nothing good will come from dosing so recklessly. I'm glad you enjoyed yourself though, please stay safe.

I wouldn't mess with anything so potent again the future were I you, you CANNOT dose something so potent without a means of assuring a great degree of accuracy.


----------



## till101

is it possible to smoke it in hcl form ?


----------



## greenmeanies

Wow, i never imagined that this could get into the hands of true psychedelic newbies like mrdqb... Please use a scale next time and be more careful! While your experience turned out OK, there are dozens of cases like yours that ended in the hospital or jail.

These super-potent drugs are to be respected! We're treading in the realm of almost "weaponized" chemicals (active at 0.5mg) that are far too dangerous to be treated like the "street drugs" that are active in the 100+mg range.


----------



## Limitbreaker

Also, I'd like everyone to remember that 100mg of one powder doesn't equal in volume to another 100mg of another powder.

This is *especially* visible in those phenetylamines. 

Try weighting eg. 20mg of 2C-P and compare it to any other 20mg powder. You'll see quite a difference.


----------



## Erny

Not "almost", they are, actually, weapons, if we wish to put it this way. The "psychedelic fentanyls". And the person is a lucky one, it could all have been far worse than the way it happened. Do not underestimate these drugs.


----------



## JBrandon

What an asshole. That story enraged me. Mrdbq or whatever, you are a blight on this scene and exactly the type pf person who ruins this for all of us. You take an eyeballed dose of an ultrapotent psych FOR YOUR FIRST PSYCH EXPERIENCE and then go wander off into public. You not only failed to use a scale which I'm sure you don't own, you then sent this shit on to your friends who I'm sure are also as brainless and moronic as you. What if you got nailed by a car? What if you fucking traumatized an entire family who ran you over as you stumbled into the street? My guess is you're a highschooler who stumbled upon *that site* and fucking started ordering shit with absolutely no preparation or understanding of what the hell you were doing. 

You (and everyone else here) are just lucky it didn't end in a disaster.


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## lysergication

It seemed so dumb to me that I thought he was a trolling


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## Erny

With this thing, as well as the other ones, you could get tripping after opening whatever package they are in and getting your face too close, if there is a fine dust in it, that may eventually get into the air you inhale. This same thing may happen while weighting them. Such thing happened to me a couple of times. Do not underestimate these drugs.


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## mrdqb

wow I don't think I deserve personal attacks because of this. I do own a scale but it only registers around 5mgs or more. so I did eye ball a tiny amount. For the person that said i toook 10 times the normal dose and was surprised, I would say more like impressed at how powerfull this stuff is.  And why is it my fault if if it is sold in those quantities then it should be the vendor's liability not mine. I would have done the Tregar method but sorry i''m not a millionaire and i can't order all this fancy lab stuff like magnetic stirrers and HPBCD complex. IF this stuff if ment to to be dosed at the 500mcg levle then the vendor should manufacture it so it comes in those doses. not my fault. but why are u all gettin on me . I wanted to give props to the potential of this chemical. Shit I live in NY there are weirdos on every street corner. For all it matters maybe i was one of those weirdos for a couple of hours that day. But obviously i didn't do anything crazy because i ended up just fine. I admit i underestimated this stuff and wont do it again. but I sent it to a couple people experienced in this stuff so they are not complete newbs like me.  The fact that I was wandering around practically blind for a few hours must prove that society is pretty cool for not running me over or robbing me. and I guess I am a decent person because i didn't end up in jail. PEACE Out.


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## mrdqb

also whatever your feeling on my experience, I highly think this stuff can be used in the psychological field, or in some type of scientific studies. Just like MDMA i think 25i kind of gives you a deeper personal insight into your own personality from an observational perspective.


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## Thorns Have Roses

If you would check out liquid dosing you would find it is easy to dose relatively accurately using only the tools that are available to you. 

Trying to abdicate personal responsibility and blame the suppliers is completely ridiculous and asinine. These are shady individuals selling you drugs over the internet and you expect them not only to be 100% truworthy, but hold your hand and do everything for you...you should not be messing with RCs (or any drugs that don't come in standarized gov't regulated doses) if this is the way you look at things, for your own safety. 

This isn't something to shrug off and get defensive about, what you did was dangerous, you could have seriously harmed yourself and/or others, and that's gonna bother people here (your nonchalance about the matter especially is especially worrying).


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## mrdqb

Sorry I don't mean to offend anyone and I'm not a role model , but can you tell me what exactly is the benefit of using psychedelics in the first place? Someone said I'm they type that ruins it for the rest of you, what exactly do the rest of you need this stuff for? While I admit it is a cool experience, I can't think of any social situation which being high on something would be socialy acceptable. Unless you're doing this in a controlled group environment. Nor does it give you any lasting physical benefits. The only possible usefull use of these as well as other drugs are for either physical or psychological thereputic applications. Even if you do this stuff responsibly at home does that make you a great person? what difference does it make if you waste away in private or public? I did as much research on this checmical as i could before trying int. AndI couldn't find one single experience that suggested it was even possilble for this stuff to work if taken in powdered form. So whether or not the stuff would work was not known to me at the time. Well i guess I was wrong. I just wanted to post my experience with this. I'm not advocating anybody replcate what I did. I thought this was an open forum where you could report your experience. And another reason I chose to test this the way I did was because allot of times the stuff i order turns out to be bunk. So I though there was a 50/50 shot of this stuff being bunk as well.


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## IamMe90

mrdqb said:


> Sorry I don't mean to offend anyone and I'm not a role model , but can you tell me what exactly is the benefit of using psychedelics in the first place? Someone said I'm they type that ruins it for the rest of you, what exactly do the rest of you need this stuff for? While I admit it is a cool experience, I can't think of any social situation which being high on something would be socialy acceptable. Unless you're doing this in a controlled group environment. Nor does it give you any lasting physical benefits. The only possible usefull use of these as well as other drugs are for either physical or psychological thereputic applications. Even if you do this stuff responsibly at home does that make you a great person? what difference does it make if you waste away in private or public? I did as much research on this checmical as i could before trying int. AndI couldn't find one single experience that suggested it was even possilble for this stuff to work if taken in powdered form. So whether or not the stuff would work was not known to me at the time. Well i guess I was wrong. I just wanted to post my experience with this. I'm not advocating anybody replcate what I did. I thought this was an open forum where you could report your experience. And another reason I chose to test this the way I did was because allot of times the stuff i order turns out to be bunk. So I though there was a 50/50 shot of this stuff being bunk as well.



-snip- The difference between _us_ enjoying psychedelics responsibly and _you_ recklessly dosing ultra potent psychedelics while taking no precautions is that you endanger yourself and everyone else around you. You are frustratingly myopic and self centered. What we _gain_ from a psychedelic experience is totally irrelevant to the matter at hand here; what's at hand is that you _put peoples' lives in danger._ 

Ugh, some people.. disgusting.

edit: you researched everything you could before taking this chemical and thought it wouldn't work in powder form? Every single iota of information about this chemical on the web suggests that it is a _highly_ potent psychedelic when snorted. Stop bullshitting us.


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## Erny

Oh yes, it is quite possible you have a troll here. Or at least a person that is impossible to communicate with. Whatever is the reason, you will have hard time to explain to him what was not right and how it shoud be done. Good luck with it 

On behigh.org and hyperlab.info both admins prefer to simply ban the annoyance


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## Cyanoide

Finally ordered this. I disliked 2C-I when I used it years ago, but I'm really hopeful the NBOMelated version will be nicer.

How would you compare 2C-I to the NBOMe version?

Edit: Just to clarify, I have read about 25I, trip reports etc so I have a picture of what's waiting for me. But I would still want a comparison between the similarities and dissimilarities between these two.

Oh, I intensely enjoyed 25C. So if anyone has experience with both 25C and 25I, please share your experiences about how they compare to another too.


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## skillet

mrdqb said:


> And why is it my fault if if it is sold in those quantities then it should be the vendor's liability not mine.



That's me convinced, I'm off to juggle knives :D (I can't juggle, but surely no store would be foolish enough to sell sharpened metal to the general public...)

But seriously, and assuming you're not just trolling, you don't need HPBCD or anything fancy, just weigh it, dissolve and measure doses from liquid. Then snort or plug. And read the thread.


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## nopipesdfw

I will admit I have split up some of the less potent  2C-X's into a few doses from weighed out points or two, but to the guy who didn't even bother checking what kind of doses people generally take of a powerful, weighed in the millionths of a gram psychedelic before even attempting to eyeball, that was by far the most dangerous part of your journey.

Not that eyeballing anything with doses of under 100mg is a good idea, but I have seen what 20+mg of the different 2C-X's looks like on good scales plenty of times before. I still wasn't using proper RC etiquette and that could have been dangerous too.


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## Jesusgreen

Kind of off-topic, but in reply to your post nopipesdfw - if you had a larger weighed out amount then liquid dosing would have been a good method, as it would allow complete accuracy and you wouldn't have had to weigh it again, plus you avoid the risks of eyeballing :D

The Liquid Measurement Thread


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## psykap

Heh I made few blotters with 1 mg 25I and 5 mg HPBCD. It was help now 25I is active but I have one question , they dont work with full power . Tregar maybe you reading  it , you said that correctly should be dose x 9, so do you think that I should give more cyclodextrin ? For example 1 mg 25I and 8-9 mg HPCD?  
At the moment this dose its not enough on full +++ any suggestion? Its very good quality but probably freebase.


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## IamMe90

I'd suggest editing that post, or it's going to get removed.


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## freedstar

Hearing stuff like that from people scares me. What is it that causes people to defend psychedelics so vehemently? I get bad trips from thinking it's just some side effect from too much drugz


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## Addam

I think in some cases that vehemence comes when psychedelics are important to someone, and that importance lies in the experiences brought about by their use. I know that I've had some life-changing experiences with psychedelics and thus they are very important to me, I'd vehemently argue in their favor and also try to protect them as much as I could from the irresponsible use that could bring about more restrictions/legislation on them.

As for what was mentioned above; asking a vendor to sell what amounts to dosage units and placing the blame on the vendor...facepalm. Facepalm. Facepalm. I'm gonna just withdraw myself from further comment on that whole situation.

Not only should we think about the restrictions on the availability of these compounds to people like us, we should also think of the scientific research being conducted on them by people like Nichols. When something is placed in Schedule 1, not only does it become harder for us to procure, it makes it a lot harder for these guys to continue their research, and I believe that their research is extremely important to the possibility of these substances being accepted in the future.
So please people, let's be careful with these substances. Be mindful of the consequences of reckless behavior with them, and not just consequences to yourself but to others as well. A few fuck-ups can indeed be enough to ruin it for everybody. Most everybody here doesn't need to be told this. But when you think you've done enough pre-game research, go ahead and do some more.


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## Mr.Hedges

Sorry for being overly rude to the irresponsible researcher yesterday, I will admit that I got carried away a bit and my comment did deserve to be removed, but it did make some good points as well in regards how that guys irresponsibility COULD HAVE affected all of us had he been killed, injured, robbed, raped, etc. All of those things could have absolutely happened to this person during their experience because of how they chose to irresponsibly use something that is a TOOL in the hands of a qualified researcher. One of the interesting compounds that people try could end up being the best anti-depressant we've ever found, or turn out to cure opiate dependence, or many other things, the fact is they are all STRONG, unique, interesting substances with infinite possibilities...BUT, them falling into the wrong hands and causing harm to someone being ignorant could cost the rest of the WORLD the possibilities of these medicines existing! I'm not saying I think MDAI is going to cure cancer or anything like that, but there is enough restriction of substance, for no reason, in our collective societies that we shouldn't make it so that even MORE things can never be scientifically examined in depth and deemed useful or not. The fact is...we just don't know the possibilities that these substances could hold for mankind. Modern medicine is a joke when it comes to helping a depressed or a crazy person...we shouldn't be trying to make it harder for people to find medicine to help them. I just wanted that guy to realize how ignorant he was for acting in such an incredibly irresponsible way on his FIRST trip, and I do have a high opinion of psychedelic use and its purpose in each and everyone's life. I think if everyone on our planet had had at least ONE psychedelic experience in their life...we WOULD live in a different world. And that is also part of why they are illegal and looked down upon as well, they could crumble society itself if humans today realized how meaningless the material based lives they are living are. Psychedelics put you in tune with the planet and the people around you, it could change the planet for the better if only it were allowed to happen. That is why we don't need irresponsible people making EVEN MORE things illegal that DO NOT need to be. Just certain people shouldn't be touching them.........I'M LOOKING AT YOU GUY!....

Sorry for the long rant, but it's worth the read. Peace...


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## Jesusgreen

It's easy to lose control sometimes when people are being irresponsible and putting their safety at risk, it can be quite frustrating, so I understand your sentiment there completely.

It's always important to exercise caution, people recklessly taking high doses of these new compounds are likely to see themselves in a real mess sooner or later, just because psychedelics tend to be rather _physically_ benign doesn't mean their use can't be dangerous when they're abused or taken lightly.


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## mad_demon_man_ant

This might be in the wrong place on bluelight, but it has to do with this chem so if you want to move it editor feel free. I personally would stay FAR away from 25i if i were someone considering taking it who hasnt yet. Not to long ago i came into possession of a large amount of 25i. Something about this chem or atleast the batch i had was wrong. Its like they took 2ci, drained all the good out of it and infused it with evil. I personally had fine reactions to it and had some decent trips but the after effects and what it did to my brain werent so good.. Im now seeing a psychiatrist not solely but largely due to my overuse of this and other chems like it. Also 2 people were hospitalized and are forever scarred due to horrible first time reactions on the same 25i. This is just a friendly warning from an avid psychedelic lover who stepped too far into these chemicals. There is a reason they are called "research" chems. Ive tried almost all of them and i have to give 25i-nbome the award for the most fucked. If you havnt tried this yet, i strongly suggest you dont. And if you have and are fine, then great. Youre one of the lucky ones.


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## IamMe90

Here's what I have to say to you: 8) 

People have killed themselves and done all manner of stupid things on just about every psychedelic out there. I'm sorry that you were traumatized by this chemical or knew those who were, but I find no reason to blame this on a chemical and describe it as "evil" because of a very small minority of cases that almost every psychedelic shares.


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## mad_demon_man_ant

i know this. and like i said idk if it was the chemical, or the batch, or just me. but i literally felt myself going insane every time i took it. idk why i kept taking it. i just felt like i should say something.


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## mad_demon_man_ant

and i obviously wasnt serious about it being evil, its just an expression. i just find it darker and the adverse effects to be horrible so i coined it "evil"


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## Help?!?!

mad_demon_man_ant said:


> people who dont understand them.


Yeah......probably shouldn't have done it then huh? Oh wait were you talking about other people? Your a sad excuse of a cowering being who can't cope with the fact it decided to put a chemical into its body it did not understand or know about, said chemical decided to bite you in the ass, like psychedelics do to those that toy with them with ill intent and here you are. Theres only one person to blame, yourself. I could even further the argument to state that a chemical cannot even be evil since good and evil are a human ideas, that by the way only exists if you choose to let it. I will also come and tell the families how awesomely sad it is their childerns "friend" gave them a chemical it had no business possessing let alone giving away in the first place as well as how awesomely sad it is their children are ignorant enough to not only take an unknown chemical from multiple stand points but to then blame the chemical when it back fired and did not induce euphoria they sought and instead induced terror/mayhem. I know this is all terribly harsh but sometimes having to read garbage gets terribly old. You bought the chemical, you ate it even though it explicitly states not to, and know you and you alone must live with the consequences. Maybe understanding this will help you along with your therapy and problems.


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## twelvesevndi

Its possible you were constantly overdosing... how did you measure this exactly?


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## mad_demon_man_ant

I just meant that people should know the risks involved with rc chems. I know what ive done is my fault and that i have to deal with the consequences. and twelvesevndi i measured it out on a triple point scale pretty well so no i dont think that was it


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## IamMe90

Is a triple point scale a mg scale? If so, that is vastly inadequate to measure out 25i. Forgive me if I've misinterpreted your terminology, though.


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## mad_demon_man_ant

i used a scale that could measure in amounts as low as 500 micrograms basically, my friend who i borrowed it from said it was called a triple point idk


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## twelvesevndi

it weighed to the miligram you mean? because that is absolutely not accurate enough for this chemical.

i just have a hard time believing that you measured the dosages appropriately... you say you are a teenage guitar instructor...and you contemplated robbery so that you could buy a vial of acid.


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## twelvesevndi

not saying anything about your intelligence. just your financial situation and the financial situations of your acquaintances.


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## mad_demon_man_ant

i use the same bluelight account as my brother... so idk about all that


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## mad_demon_man_ant

<snip>it isnt about me wtf. i just wanted to put out a warning so if anyone was going to try this drug they knew what could possibly happen or whats happened to me. thanks to those of you who werent being judgemental.



Just a friendly reminder folks, read the PD Guidelines and you'll find in our rules:


> *Be Respectful: This is rule numero uno, and for good reason. The single quickest way to get banned is to be a jerk. Profanity is okay up to a point, but if it's really excessive we'll ask you to tone it down and if it's directed in a hostile manner at someone then it's not okay. Never attack someone for posting a question you think is stupid or obvious, or for holding an opinion you disagree with. This should really be common sense. If you ain't got nothin' nice to say...



I know sometimes a post will really set you off, but please take the time to respond to it in a well oragnized and thought it matter if you must, calling people names does not improve our standard of discourse, and makes you look bad.

~Never


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## twelvesevndi




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## mad_demon_man_ant

^not you buddy


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## Thorns Have Roses

The problem was't the drug, it's that such a potent drug was dosed recklessly by persons who were not responsible enough to measure it properly (with a scale of that accuracy, liquid dosing would allow you a far greater degree of accuracy). I'm sorry to hear such an overwhelmingly negative experience was had, and I hope those involved get well soon.


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## Transform

Probably at least worth noting that this may not be the next LSD or DMT in terms of safety. Let's try to take something from this.


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## IamMe90

Well, I think any of us with sense knew this wasn't the next LSD in terms of safety profile, it's a highly potent synthetic phenethylamine. In terms of value, though, I'd say it ranks up there. For responsible people, that is.


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## Solipsis

I hate to compare NBOMe compounds to their corresponding 2C-X or DOX analogues but I just want to point out that DOI is also described as being able to have a dark edge. I don't think any of these drugs are evil but if there is a tendency (especially in the predisposed) to catalyze rational thought and turn emotions 'cold' and make everything a bit manic or something... that might make for potential to create such tricky experiences.
If you find that you are a person who reacts this way to the drug then just stop using it, apparently it's not for you. Forget about judging it for everyone else though, a tendency is only a tendency.

And I'm not sure about what all you guys are doing to be able to measure your doses accurately enough but if you think you are doing it well and responsibly while in reality you don't have enough understanding of what you're doing.... then you are potentially putting yourself at risk and don't even know it. I'm not sure I have heard even a single person say they admit they don't have the proper level of understand and equipment - yet it sounds like people are cutting corners.
I'm not interested in dicksizing of 'skill', absolutely none of that. Instead, I worry about the simple fact that people who have no business handling a compound like this in pure form _can_ acquire it. And a portion of those incompetent people will get it and it is likely they will be ignorant to their own incompetence (otherwise they would be too scared or worried to try and fuck with it). This recipe makes it like a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt. The guy in the previous page easily could have gotten hurt.
And sometimes when shit goes wrong, such people can even blame the wrong things like the nature of the compound, instead of their own fault of not handling it properly. I am not saying I know for a fact this is what happened to Mr Mad Demon there, at the top of this post I describe another possible reason for making it seem like this compound has an evil nature. I'm not here to point at people and select those I think to be competent and those I do not... I won't do that unless I think it will mean something to a person's safety.

Anyway whatever the reason for your dubious reactions is, Mad Demon, the answer is the same every time: just stay away from it. You have nothing to prove by giving it another shot.


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## twgburst

Help?!?! said:


> Yeah......probably shouldn't have done it then huh? Oh wait were you talking about other people? Your a sad excuse of a cowering being who can't cope with the fact it decided to put a chemical into its body it did not understand or know about, said chemical decided to bite you in the ass, like psychedelics do to those that toy with them with ill intent and here you are. Theres only one person to blame, yourself. I could even further the argument to state that a chemical cannot even be evil since good and evil are a human ideas, that by the way only exists if you choose to let it. I will also come and tell the families how awesomely sad it is their childerns "friend" gave them a chemical it had no business possessing let alone giving away in the first place as well as how awesomely sad it is their children are ignorant enough to not only take an unknown chemical from multiple stand points but to then blame the chemical when it back fired and did not induce euphoria they sought and instead induced terror/mayhem. I know this is all terribly harsh but sometimes having to read garbage gets terribly old. You bought the chemical, you ate it even though it explicitly states not to, and know you and you alone must live with the consequences. Maybe understanding this will help you along with your therapy and problems.


 Wow, stop being an asshole.  Its his opiniom take it or leave it.  I swear some people get pissed off about the dumbest shit.


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## mrdqb

skillet said:


> But seriously, and assuming you're not just trolling, you don't need HPBCD or anything fancy, just weigh it, dissolve and measure doses from liquid. Then snort or plug. And read the thread.



I thought this stuff wasn't water soluable. If were that easy I would have done that, and there would be 13 now 14 pages on this thread. 

And I did do research on this. I couldn't find any specific reports about people who ACTUALLY tried this stuff. Yes it is that Damn Strong!


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## mrdqb

The only strange thing about this 25i-nbome stuff was that I redosed the second day and absolutely nothing happened. I took much more that day 1 where I was tripping hard.  Has as anyone else that tried this stuff have the same problem ? Someone told me you have to wait 2 weeks to have another trip like the first one. I have no idea if that's true.


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## Thorns Have Roses

mr. dyslexic letter combo said:
			
		

> I thought this stuff wasn't water soluable.
> 
> The only strange thing about this 25i-nbome stuff was that I redosed the second day and absolutely nothing happened. I took much more that day 1 where I was tripping hard. Has as anyone else that tried this stuff have the same problem ? Someone told me you have to wait 2 weeks to have another trip like the first one. I have no idea if that's true.



Yeah, the 25_x_-nbomes have built a reputation for building a high acute tolerance, and you have to wait a week or two or whatevs for it to wear off before using again without significantly increasing your dose.

The freebase isn't water soluble, the salt is.


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## cryptix420

mrdqb said:


> I thought this stuff wasn't water soluable. If were that easy I would have done that, and there would be 13 now 14 pages on this thread.
> 
> And I did do research on this. I couldn't find any specific reports about people who ACTUALLY tried this stuff. Yes it is that Damn Strong!




you must not have looked very hard. i posted a trip report a couple pages back, and there's several including mine on the new reports section of erowid.


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## ebola?

On safe measurement: 
if you're working with a mg scale...or a 'triple point scale', as it were, your accuracy is likely something in the realm of +/- 3 mg, despite a precision of 1 mg.  What you want to do is measure a given amount and then dissolve in water, vodka, isopropanol, etc. (whichever is appropriate for the compound in question), and then measure volumetrically, ideally with a baby syringe or diabetic needle, to split the measurement error.

For example, if you measure 100 mg, your allotment will have a mass between 97 and 103 mg (this assumes constant measurement error...if the measurement error is proportional to magnitude of mass, you're kinda fucked ).  If you dissolve this into 100 ml/water, an expected 1 mg (1 ml) dose will have a mass of 9.97 to 1.03 mg (note that this is a high dose of 25I-NBoMe).  Note that the measurement error is negligible, and you could get away with a way more flawed scale.  Also note that 1 mg of fluid is a bit more than one can easily insufflate.

ebola


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## cryptix420

So since this compound is only a 5-ht2a receptor agonist...does that mean it would most likely be safe to take with MDMA? I'm just looking for educated theories.


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## Solipsis

Whatever you do, one thing to watch out for is hyperthermia. Both of these drugs influence your serotonergic system and can meddle with your internal temperature regulation / homeostasis. There was a report on erowid of 25C of hyperthermia concerns and MDMA is surely known to have the potential. The drug is indeed thermogenic but that is not the real problem, it will not just make you overheat out of the blue. But if you exercise or dance a lot, then you can have a much harder time cooling down naturally. Combined with going lenghts without drinking fluids you can get dehydration, combined with overheating this happens to party-goers with some regularity. So avoid too much dancing and too little drinking and keep an eye on it yourself, cooling down with an icepack or cool shower or take off clothing items accordingly.

Vasoconstriction is another concern, whatever the strength of the trip is you need to keep the dose of NBOMe compounds under a certain dose like a few milligrams. So NBOMe's with higher doses needed have this problem quicker. Since MDMA is a stimulant this can exacerbate the vasoconstriction. Be careful, I'd always recommend doing a trial first with lower doses of both than originally planned.

I cannot comment on the rest of the safety, I think a number of people have tried MDMA with some NBOMe compounds. But there is very little known about these NBOMe drugs so watch yourself!!


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## mrdqb

I'll go back and find your report cryptix420, I must have missed it. Is it possible for this stuff to cause Hypothermia? I gave a very small sample to 2 of my friends. One of them told me that they felt cold, but were'nt having the visuals. I find that pretty strange, the other friend loved it. He told me the tiny amount i gave him looked like i was being a cheapskate, but he said he put it under his tongue and ingested it eventually, and then he said he was tripping for 12 hours and into the next day. Even the person that said he was feeling cold seemed to like it , but i don't know if he's telling me the truth because he says he didn't experience the visuals, I find that hard to believe. The other guy's report sounded more accurate to my expectations. He was especially impressed at how potent the stuff was. They tiny amount i gave him had him trippin for a while.  Well both people and I all seem to want to order more of this. I think this is a genuinely a rc worth trying. The only down side is it's extremely difficult to measure out 0.5 mgs, and tolerance seems to build up overnight , well for me it did. I don't know a whole lot about psychedelics, but I though lsd or acid could be done on a daily basis. I read that Jim Morrison was doing acid Daily at some point..


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## kingme

mrdqb said:


> Is it possible for this stuff to cause Hypothermia?
> 
> tolerance seems to build up overnight , well for me it did.
> 
> I don't know a whole lot about psychedelics, but I though lsd or acid could be done on a daily basis. I read that Jim Morrison was doing acid Daily at some point..



Hello!
since ive not yet had the courage to try out these compouns ill only be replying with my thoughts on the matter.
hypothermia ... well the percetion that one is cold doesnt really imply a lowered temperature. it is more likely that what your friend felt was vasoconstriction, which can in turn lead to such sensations as cold limbs. how frequent these side effects are is anyones guess since these are really novel compounds still.... 
so try to be more open to what others are experiencing. just because your friend didnt have the expected visuals doesnt mean the substance had little effect on him or that he is lying. it might be he took the dose incorrectly, or that he has a tolerance already, or even just a dosing error (not enough substance in the dose) like you said, it is very difficult to get .5 mg measured, so perhaps there was a mistake in that process?

i suggest you read up a bit more on psychedelics and how they work and what tolerance really is. myths such as these, that lsd can be effectively taken daily, dont really stand up to scrutiny. sure, you could potentially take it every day, but i bet after 2 days youd have to eat a whole sheet of lucy to feel anything. there are people who have tried constant daily use of psychedelics and the result were not favourabe in the least.

speaking of tolerance, i have a question regarding this and cross tolerance. i see from reports there is a really steep tolerance developed in the days following the trip on 25x nbome. i know it is best to spread out trips for weeks apart. but was just wondering what the cross tolerance was between these compounds and the rest of the psychedelics? can you effectively trip at your usual dose the following week after a nbome trip? what about a nbome trip the week after a normal dose lsd trip? any thoughts?


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## mrdqb

I dont know about that , i didn't save any I only had 50mgs to begin with. i suppose I could have saved some to try at a later time, but I kept trying to redose on day 2 and nothing was happening. As for the person who said he was feeling cold, I gave him and my other friend about the same exact amount to sample. One guy had the same type of thing I experienced, the visuals and all that, the other guy said no visuals but he said he felt high. I don't know exactly how he felt but i was surprised he didn't get the visuals. Yeah maybe the sample i sent him was too small. But when I first got it i did the smallest possible line.. it wasn't even a line i just sprinkled of few grains of the powder onto a plate and snorted them. And i got pretty stoned off that. How can you tell if you have freebase or nonfreebase? 

yeah ur right i dont know squat about lsd or acid. i really have only 1 experience from the 25i that's it. so I don't know how tolerance works with actual lsd or acid.  But I was reading about Jim Morrison on wikipedia, just out of curiousity, and it says that he was doing acid daily for like 6 months at some point in time. Whether or not the acid worked every time isn't clear. I guess not since u say tolerance builds quickly from most psychedelics.


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## Jesusgreen

People have done psychedelics daily for long periods of time, yes - but as for getting good effects from it? Not unless they're a millionaire and doubling up their doses every day. You need to wait at least a week between trips generally to get good effects from the same amount - 3 days works but you still need anywhere from 1.25 to 1.5x as much usually. Even then, you shouldn't be tripping every week, the experiences won't be very magical after a few trips, and they won't be very enjoyable either. You'll also likely experience some negative side-effects such as memory impairment etc if you're tripping that often over a long period of time. I've been there, and it's not a good idea.



> Yeah maybe the sample i sent him was too small. But when I first got it i did the smallest possible line.. it wasn't even a line i just sprinkled of few grains of the powder onto a plate and snorted them.



This is a substance that's active in the microgram range and you're eyeballing it? That's highly irresponsible and could get you hurt - what's worse is you sent an eyeballed dose to someone, he could have had a horrible experience or worse, ended up in hospital if things had gone awry. If you can afford these drugs, you can afford a scale, you can get a great one for as little as $25 man, seriously!


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## Erny

Solipsis said:


> I cannot comment on the rest of the safety, I think a number of people have tried MDMA with some NBOMe compounds. But there is very little known about these NBOMe drugs so watch yourself!!


It is the same as in the case of simple PIHKAL phenylethylamines or LSD. It feels like they have a synergy. An entactogen (MDMA) at least doubles the potency of a psychedelic when they are taken together. In result, it feels more like a psychedelic part of the mix than like an entactogen part, although entactogen is also felt at the background. 

When combining an 1/2 dose of 2C-X with an 1/2 dose of MDXX (or other entactogen) the resulting effects are quite strong. When combining full doses the effects may be overwhelming. That is best not to be done. If the phenylethylamine part of the mix is something like DOB it may end in flipping out. NBOMe-PEAs mostly resemble DOX here, like in some others of their properties. I recommend to take one half of the normal NBOMe-PEA dose together with a half of the normal MDMA dose. If someone choses to take full doses of each of the compounds or even doses higher than normal, such person may get into an experience he or she didn't wanted to have, and may regret it.

So, 15 mgs of 2C-B plus 80 mgs of MDMA is strong, but ok. 30 or more mgs of 2C-B plus 100 or more mgs of MDMA is an unpleasant overdose.

When I put 100 mgs of MDMA on a comedown from a powerful DOB dose (5 mgs) I had a blackout. When I woke up I was told I've been lying still for three hours. What I remember to be happening during that period resembled salvia most of all, though I do not remember much. The rest part of the trip was more like a huge dose of DOI and it lasted somewhat longer than it should have.

It is all the same with NBOMe-PEAs and they will act like DOX here, not like 2C-X. An overdose will be more than just an unpleasant experience, it might be dangerous.






			
				kingme said:
			
		

> speaking of tolerance, i have a question regarding this and cross tolerance. i see from reports there is a really steep tolerance developed in the days following the trip on 25x nbome. i know it is best to spread out trips for weeks apart. but was just wondering what the cross tolerance was between these compounds and the rest of the psychedelics? can you effectively trip at your usual dose the following week after a nbome trip? what about a nbome trip the week after a normal dose lsd trip? any thoughts?


I think I've been talking about that high tolerance ever since I've appeared on this board. Cross-tolerance is also present, which isn't surprising at all. All of the psychedelics  have cross-tolerance to each other, and all of them even have cross-tolerance with MD(M)A. In some cases like that one with entactogens it may be somewhat reduced however. 

Cross-tolerance of NBOMe-PEAs with simple PEAs is also reduced a bit. This doesn't change much in the overall picture, however. So, a NBOMe-PEA taken the next day after a 2C-B experience would work, though would be somewhat less powerful. 2C-B taken on the next day after a NBOMe-PEA experience would be weak. A NBOMe after that same or some othe NBOMe is absolutely useless. Now I feel like I'm helping you to find a way to take drugs more often.


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## lulzkiller

I can attest that a full dose 2C-C (50 mg) combined with a full dose of MDMA (100 mg) was not a very nice experience and probably one of the most reckless things I have done. My friend and I managed though, through a combination of controlled breathing, cold showers and hydration.

Erny, I'm intrigued about the way you describe a doubling of potency in the psychedelic when you add an entactogen. Does this hold for full or half doses of the entactogens?

i.e.:

half dose 2C-X + half dose entactogen -> experiential equivalent of full dose 2C-X + half dose entactogen?

If yes, do you think this is true for LSD and tryptamines as well?


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## Erny

lulzkiller said:


> half dose 2C-X + half dose entactogen -> experiential equivalent of full dose 2C-X + half dose entactogen?


Yes.



> If yes, do you think this is true for LSD and tryptamines as well?


No. It is true for LSD, at least for some people. I prefer not to mix LSD and tryptamines into one family. LSD is an indole-based psychedelic, yes, but it is an ergoloid, not tryptamine. 

Now, tryptamines all act differently when combined either with MDMA or PIHKAL PEAs. Some tryptamines also display something like synergy, others do not. Those that do not, just add up theirs effects to the effects of the other part of the mix. Like DET, that is the best tryptamine additive to just about any PEA IMHO. It just adds the warmth of a tryptamine into the PEA experience making it more friendly and calm or even meditative, without making it stronger. 5-methoxy-tryptamines seem more synergistic, both with psychedelics and entactogens. 4-hydroxy-tryptamines seem to be not very synergistic though I didn't explored them enough to be certain.


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## kingme

Erny said:


> Now I feel like I'm helping you to find a way to take drugs more often.



you dont have to worry about that, at least in my case. i just find it interesting what people experience in regards to tolerance from these psychedelics... 

however i do think it is a bit dangerous to think of a combo with an entactogen with nbomes, if what you say about PEAs is true. they are very potent enough, and according to some accounts, have the potential to give black outs (or blank?) on their own.


----------



## Addam

I can't believe the people claiming to have done research prior to trying the compound and still proceeding in a reckless manner. When I began experimenting with this one there was only a partial page of info on it, and yet I still managed to proceed in a safe and careful manner. That half page of info was enough to glean such info as sub-milligram dose, ineffective ROAs, and the fact that tolerance builds quickly with NBOMes to the point of dosing on consecutive days having close to no results. I dosed 650mcg and had a wonderful +++, starting out with more than 1mg is what I might call a bad idea, there is NO reason to jump in that high. But some people won't learn until they experience a train wreck, apparently.
No one should be eyeballing "lines" of this. Use liquid measurement. There is no reason to not have a scale, you can get a reliable one for less than $30 with shipping. Buy the damn scale before you get more compound. Don't distribute eyeballed amounts to psychedelic-naive individuals who will then eyeball it themselves. This is not cool behavior. I really hate to come across as the wet blanket here and I am really not trying to flame anyone, but please, a tiny bit of common sense goes a long way.


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## FattestGothAlive

Addam said:


> I can't believe the people claiming to have done research prior to trying the compound and still proceeding in a reckless manner. When I began experimenting with this one there was only a partial page of info on it, and yet I still managed to proceed in a safe and careful manner. That half page of info was enough to glean such info as sub-milligram dose, ineffective ROAs, and the fact that tolerance builds quickly with NBOMes to the point of dosing on consecutive days having close to no results. I dosed 650mcg and had a wonderful +++, starting out with more than 1mg is what I might call a bad idea, there is NO reason to jump in that high. But some people won't learn until they experience a train wreck, apparently.
> No one should be eyeballing "lines" of this. Use liquid measurement. There is no reason to not have a scale, you can get a reliable one for less than $30 with shipping. Buy the damn scale before you get more compound. Don't distribute eyeballed amounts to psychedelic-naive individuals who will then eyeball it themselves. This is not cool behavior. I really hate to come across as the wet blanket here and I am really not trying to flame anyone, but please, a tiny bit of common sense goes a long way.



Excellent post. Reading this thread and hearing about people being reckless with the NBOMe's gives me the shivers. My friends and I learned some hard lessons when 2C-T-7 was available, and I hate to see others repeat the fatal mistakes of the RC scene back then...


----------



## thomash

has anyone tried plugging this chemical? it seems like that could be a viable route of administration


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## twgburst

You should not be using a scale to directly dose this.    What happened to being a responsible drug user?  Measure by volum in a solvent


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## Jesusgreen

twgburst said:


> You should not be using a scale to directly dose this.    What happened to being a responsible drug user?  Measure by volum in a solvent



^ Unless of course your scale is capable of measuring in the microgram range. Though with such small amounts of material, liquid measurement is more appropriate, since you'll likely lose some on the scale.


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## Survived Abortion

thomash said:


> has anyone tried plugging this chemical? it seems like that could be a viable route of administration



Considering that your mouth has to be pretty clean from biofilm to get the most out of sublingual/buccal absorption I would be suprised if rectal is as effective as that. I tried 375ug 25C rectally for my first time using it and I felt barely threshold effects. Whereas 750ug 25C blew me away with intensely vivid 360° geometric visuals. I know it's not 25I, but it seems that the NBOMEs all share a similar bioavailability across the mucous membranes. Of course please feel free to try, and then update us with your findings!


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## DriveThru

Has anyone tried dropping or squirting a little bit of the solution in their nose?

I think this is how I would like to try it but I'm not sure how good alcohol would feel, and I'm wondering how long the chem would last in water.


----------



## Transform

That's entirely do-able, but 100% alcohol up your nose will NOT be pleasant. 

It will evaporate quickly though, so you could put it on a dish, evaporate, then add 0.5mls water and insufflate that.

Stored frozen in solution 25I will outlive you.


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## MattPsy

Nope, plugging is just as effective as intranasal IME.


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## citizenuzi

Would there be any point to soaking my 500ug blotters and hitting them IV? I don't have a fetish I just like my drugs to hit me hard and fast, and with most effect. Any inputs or experiences welcome to share...


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## Ralt

citizenuzi said:


> Would there be any point to soaking my 500ug blotters and hitting them IV? I don't have a fetish I just like my drugs to hit me hard and fast, and with most effect. Any inputs or experiences welcome to share...


 

Source a pure powder form, weigh out 10-50mg, dissolve in sterile saline solution, and IV/IM. You can soak paper, but, incredibly inaccurate.


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## till101

*25i-nbome and clubbing*

hi,
i´m very experienced with psychedelics and i also was clubbing on 25c-nbome wich was great fun, but it was very hard to talk with people who didn´t know that i´m tripping.
could this be easier with 25i-nbome ?
is 25i-nbome less deep than 25c and more euphoric ?

peace


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## Cpt Alphabet

*snip*

Quite sorry to edit your first post, captain... but as JG says we do not allow this. Instead please read our thread on both compounds and you might draw your own conclusions, as I'm sure other bluelighters do as well. Also read the experience reports on Erowid, and generally all threads we have on NBOMe compounds... you can learn a few extra things as you go along!


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## Jesusgreen

Cpt Alphabet, we do not allow you to ask "What should I take?" questions. This goes for the OP too but he is asking a specific question - if it's less deep and more euphoric, so I'm leaving this thread open unless it does go down the "What should I take?" route.


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## Survived Abortion

citizenuzi said:


> Would there be any point to soaking my 500ug blotters and hitting them IV? I don't have a fetish I just like my drugs to hit me hard and fast, and with most effect. Any inputs or experiences welcome to share...



No. There wouldn't be any point to injecting this IV. The other routes of administration are plenty effective, and using needles to a get a psychedelic rush will only lead you in to a world of hurt in the long run. I'm speaking from experience, so please heed my advice. Stick with intranasal or sublingual - you can find the correct dose that works for you by titration.


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## HofmannBlotter

Anyone know what is a treshold dose for 25I-NBOMe ? Going to try it using sublingual 

Also I will use liquid measurement, is Vodka 37,5% OK to be mixed with 25I-NBOMe ? It's the only solvant I had. I will hold the Vodka in my mouth (buccal) or sublingual 

Thanks!


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## sn23

I don't know the dose but I'm sure it can be found in this B&D 

Vodka should be okay (regarding chemistry) and keeps molds from growing in your stock solution.

Happy journey and keep safe


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## HofmannBlotter

Thanks Sn !

Did you try 25I-NBOMe yet ? Anybody knows if I can put the 25I-NBOMe on a sugar cube like LSD and put the cube under my tongue ? Does it will work ?


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## Limitbreaker

You sure you can hold 40% alcohol in your mouth?


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## HofmannBlotter

Yeah I'm sure  I don't have access to any other solvant so... Only white Vodka (37,5%)


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## Solipsis

Should be possible with a sugar cube but you would need to keep it all in your mouth for a while - significantly longer than LSD. With the sugar there is bound to be even more saliva than normally. I'd consider chopping off a chunk of the sugar cube you know to be able to hold a drop of solution. But remember that a drop is not a constant measure of volume. LSD has a fair therapeutic index but I would be more careful with this.

Maybe consider another route of administration.


----------



## thomash

okay so to try 25I-nbome i was thinking of dissolving 10mg of the powder in 10ml of distilled water and putting it in a nasal spray bottle which delivers 0.1ml per dose. 

so if i were to take 5 doses of this it should be pretty safe right? from what i've read this seems to be the most reliable form of administration. i dont have access to hpbcd...

or is a nasal drop dispenser a better idea than nasal spray?


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Yep it should be ok  and to reply to Solipsis, I tried 500µg on a sugar and hold my saliva for 30 - 45 minutes and it worked


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## thomash

what do you guys think about the potential of vaporizing 25i-nbome?

i found these three reports that make it sound quite promising:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...-insanely-intense-peak-in-less-than-8-minutes

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=91562


another one from drugs-forum:
Dose: 4.5mg of 25I-NBOME (vaporized)
Weight: 97kg
When: sometime in September 2011

T+0:00 - I put 4.5mg of 25I-NBOME into a homemade foil pipe and vaporized it. The effects begin to build immediately and quickly.

T+0:10 - I am already immersed into the world of 25I-NBOME. The stucco walls are growing into vines and branches and dancing on the walls. Tracers are at a maximum (like with 18mg 2C-I); I am moving an empty water bottle around in my hand and I see several water bottles chasing and fading behind the actual bottle.

T+0:30 - Despite the fact that my environment literally appears to be alive, I feel extremely cognizant and I am able to converse with people with ease. I decide to go for a walk around my apartment complex. The outdoor visuals are not as interesting as the detailed visuals I was seeing from indoor textures, albeit they are still present and ++/+++.

T+2:00 - The first 2 hours seemed to be the peak of the 25I-NBOME experience. The trip is beginning to fall off. The walls are still dancing a considerable amount, and the tracers are still very good, but the experience is definitely on the come down.

T+4:00 - The trip seems to be completely over. I am a little spaced-out and worn-out, but otherwise there is little hangover.


----------



## TheAppleCore

I'd like to clarify the relative efficacy of various ROAs for 25I-NBOMe.

My understanding is that, for 25*C*-NBOMe, the ROAs tested thus far are ordered, from least to most potent:

* Sublingual / buccal (worst)
* Intranasal / rectal
* Intramuscular (depending on site of injection)
* Vaporized (best)

Does 25I pretty much behave the same way? Thanks for any info.


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## MattPsy

Someone vapourised 4.5 MILLIGRAMS of 25I!?!?!

Uhmm, I gotta say, their vapourisation method - thankfully - probably sucked, because 4.5mg would be pretty unbelievably strong vapourised. You might even die, if you were sensitive. I once vapourised 1 mg of 25C and that was way, way, way more than I wanted, and won't be doing this again.


----------



## thomash

so some friends experimented with vaporizing 25I-nbome in freebase form yesterday.

first they tried putting it in a pipe and vaporizing it by holding a lighter at a distance and just letting the heat hit it. because they didn't have scales they started with the smallest amount possible (a small speckle, smaller than a grain of salt), slowly increasing the dose after 20 minutes when no significant effect was felt.

the effects of this method weren't very strong so they improvised a small lightbulb vaporizer. this with a tiny dose catapulted everyone into a mellow trip with some having more of a body high and others having a full on visual experience. it was quite easy to dose because the effects come on pretty quickly after smoking and one can smoke a little more after waiting for about 10 minutes to increase the effects. the trip got stronger until about one hour after smoking for them. so it's good to be a little bit patient.

nevertheless it seems possible to gauge the strength of what's coming just a few minutes after exhaling.

the trip lasted about 5 hours, then descending and reaching a pretty relaxed baseline after about 8-10 hours. it was pleasant but not extremely insightful. maybe they will try and go further next time or possibly mix it with something more spiritual.

all in all it was a positive experience, a little bit strange for the group because they hadn't experienced any 2C's yet and didn't quite know what to relate it to. more experimentation will be in order.


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## IamMe90

*FACEPALM*

It was only a matter of time before the idiots got to this one. Thankfully I stocked up on 2c-e (such an amazing chemical) before people had to get it banned... now 25i will get banned in a matter of months too, I'm sure. Yes, it took years for 2c-x to get banned but 25-x are much more potent and people like above are vaporizing eyeballed amounts carelessly... Christ.


----------



## thomash

I agree that eyeballing with substances of this potency is not a good idea in general. 

the group had was not unexperienced though and started with a quantity that was smaller and lighter than a speck of dust with a guaranteed weight of less than 100ug. since vaporizing gives almost immediate results it is possible to quite safely work your way up to a recommendable dose. 

eyeballing a larger amount in order to consume it orally or by insufflation is definitely a bad idea.

none of the group members had a very strong experience. the first dose they tried did not have threshold effect so they did not start anywhere near an active or dangerous amount.

the mostly stupid thing was to not start out with a decent vaporization method.


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## Solipsis

Well you and your friends' assumptions might prove fatal! That you got positive experiences up until this point proves nothing, I had mild experiences the first times I tried vaporizing / smoking Salvia and DMT but at some point I got seriously overwhelmingly strong effects. I'm not sure how you were able to figure out you had 4.5 mg but similar amounts of some other NBOMe compounds can send you to the hospital. And eyeballing is even worse. Keep this stuff away from yourself and your friends because you are clearly not responsible enough to go near it.

The most stupid thing was NOT about vaporization methods, if anything you are lucky it was not decent. These compounds have to be titrated carefully from very low doses upwards and those very low doses have to be weighed with _micro_gram scales or with liquid measurement techniques by people who both know what they are doing and foremost: *Realize that there is no acceptable way other than to research proper procedures and asking yourself if you even understand them and if you have enough discipline to go through all of that before even thinking of ordering it.*

It does not even work orally, clearly you are just randomly trying stuff based on some few details you picked up and your friends sound even more reckless.

*Would you like to damage your body and mind? Would you like to die? Is it worth it, like 'oh cool we get to try a novel drug' then play Russian roulette and put your own well-being, the reputation of a community of psychedelic-enthousiasts that put Harm Reduction at Number 1 priority, cause hysteria in the media and horrible publicity upon the honest people in the scientific community who are doing research on receptor probing?*

We are here to remind each other to be careful, things like boasting how hardcore you are are not tolerated (does not apply here, I mention this as an example) and neither is acceptance that it is okay to do things your own way if you jeopardize so much. We are open-minded to people making their own choices in life, fully knowing what they are doing and risking. It is obvious you do not know, you do not understand. Start learning to understand very quickly because you go against everything we stand for.



> the group had was not unexperienced though and started with a quantity that was smaller and lighter than a speck of dust with a guaranteed weight of less than 100ug. since vaporizing gives almost immediate results it is possible to quite safely work your way up to a recommendable dose.



No. You are playing with fire. One pinch of powder or crystal can have a very different density than another pinch. You can't see that, you have to weigh it. And if you titrate upwards with bad vaping techniques and suddenly get a good hit of vaporized material it might be an overdose and you could end up in a 'Beth state' or with serious vasoconstriction or life-threatening conditions. The group perhaps has a _history_ trying other things, they might have had experience. But that is not the same as being correct about what is safe or not. The fact that they are not dead yet does not mean that what they or you do is not dangerous. Assumptions about a false sense of security and confidence can be extremely dangerous.

I can put it very simply for you: either you use a technique that lets you know in 'significant numbers or decimals'* what dose you have exactly, then administer it using a route of administration that is not the most fickle one of all (vaping) but instead sublingual or nasal... either that or you _dispose of the chemicals_ safely.

Significant numbers (if I translate this correctly) means that if your mg scale reads between 4 and 5 mg you do not KNOW that you have 4.5 mg. If your +/- 0.1 gram scale reads 0.4 g you do not have 4*00* mg. You have somewhere roughly in the neighborhood of that i.e. 0.4*??* but you cannot know how much in 3 decimals. You weigh a larger quantity then dilute in a solvent so that you multiply the accuracy of your measurements. That is the basis of Liquid Measurement.

The fact that you go into what is more or less acceptable in your perspective and what is less acceptable tells me you do not see the point people make here. There is no margin to fuck around. If anything, your point amounts to that you or your friend would probably not die but at most seriously injured. And even that is a bold inference.

*Are you getting me? What are you going to do? What will you tell your friends?*


----------



## thomash

solipsis,

the 4.5mg was from an experience report from drugs-forum that i pasted here in another post. i seriously don't recommend trying anything more than 0.2mg when smoking 25I-Nbome. I would also never work with pinches of a powder of this potency and the group of friends never did.


----------



## thomash

sorry, i forgot to add that they started out with an amount of 5mg which they divided in two and then separated the remaining 2.5mg into various individual doses. i realize that it's not good to propagate the idea of eyeballing amounts of these compounds but since they started out with such a small total quantity they felt pretty safe.

if you feel that its dangerous or misleading i can delete the report about their vaporizing experience.


----------



## Jesusgreen

5mg isn't "such a small total quantity" when it comes to the NBOMe series.. You could easily have one of your friends ending up with just 0.4mg, or 4mg.. huge difference, the human eye can't estimate amounts that small. Also "feeling" pretty safe is no indicator of how safe you are. 

It's always good to have reports but what your friends did was very reckless and dangerous, if you care about them I'd make sure they don't do something like that again.


----------



## thomash

if one has the 25I-nbome in freebase form is it possible to dissolve it in isopropyl alcohol and then consume it sublingually? or would it need to be converted to a salt before and dissolved in water?


----------



## Cyanoide

I have 25I Hcl and I'm going to make a solution the same way I did with 25C-NBOMe. It worked great. 1 mg 25I dropped in a solution of gently heated distilled water and vodka with a ratio of 1:1. So 0,5 ml distilled water, 0,5 ml vodka and 1 mg 25I. That would be a solution with the strength of 1 ml = 1000ug. I have a syringe with 0,1 ml increment and I'll take a dose of 400ug. That's four 0,1 ml drops nasally, bigger doses go partly down the throat. Having the vodka is great because when you feel it burns in your nose you know it went where it should, if you feel a burn in the throat it's wasted.


----------



## thomash

what if one is working with the substance in freebase form? does it make sense to dissolve it in alcohol and consume it by insufflation or sublingually? i was under the impression that freebase is not absorbed as easily.

has anyone tried making a citrate by adding citric acid? what quantity of citric acid to distilled water would be needed? or is it better to turn it into hcl?

it seems to dissolve easily in isopropyl alcohol so i'm pretty confident it's freebase. putting the solution of isopropyl alcohol on blotters would be viable? in essence the same question as to whether the freebase would be absorbed by the mucous membranes or sublingually.


----------



## IamMe90

I have had blotters of 25i freebased dissolved in EtOh which worked fine, however they were complexed with cyclodextrin so I can't be sure of how to answer your question. Test it out with a small amount?


----------



## Lawrence

Anyone try smoked 25I-NBOMe ? I never tried but with 25C-NBOMe it was spectacular.


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## IamMe90

Dude... there's literally a report of it on the previous page. Some people just don't read lol.


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## quidlicker

i have 25i-nbome freebase would the math work if i did 50mg and added 100 drops of absolute vanilla vodka onto it drop by drops for 500ug? Would it be ready to just take as a dose like that?


----------



## Survived Abortion

quidlicker said:


> i have 25i-nbome freebase would the math work if i did 50mg and added 100 drops of absolute vanilla vodka onto it drop by drops for 500ug? Would it be ready to just take as a dose like that?



Using the drop method is just too risky for a compound like this. I would always say use the proper scales + volumetric liquid measurement technique for dosing any compound in solution, but this one is particularly potent, and any cock up could mean the difference between a nice happy trip and an unpleasant overdose. 

It's so easy to lose track of what you are doing with drops. The drop sizes are not guaranteed, and it is easy to let two consecutive drops fall without catching eye of it. Just get a milligram scale, or borrow someone else's to weigh the amount you have, and then dissolve it in the correct amount of liquid accordingly for volumetric dosing.


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## MattPsy

Don't you mean a _microgram_ scale for individual doses  ? Or at least a 10 ug accuracy; don't really need single microgram accuracy.

Certainly a mg scale will do you fine if just measuring out for dilution for a stock solution though.


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## quidlicker

sounds like its going to be tricky to turn this into solution so i can take it as a drop, 

If i get the right measurements can i just dialute it into vodka?


----------



## IamMe90

MattPsy said:


> Don't you mean a _microgram_ scale for individual doses  ? Or at least a 10 ug accuracy; don't really need single microgram accuracy.
> 
> Certainly a mg scale will do you fine if just measuring out for dilution for a stock solution though.



I mean, he just said "use a milligram scale and weigh out the amount you have and dissolve it in a solution," so yeah, I think that's what he was getting at


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## psykap

Very strange I had ready blloters with freebase 25I and when I received HPBCD I add 9 mg on each 1 mg and unfortunatelly its still doesnt work how should , but when I made 25I HCL with and 9 mg HPBCD the blotters was very strong . Probably it was cause this that first time the solution HPBCD doesnt create  complex with cyclodextrine , next time I kept solution any 2 days.


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## JBrandon

So 1 gram of MDMA, 1mg Etizolam, half a gram of MXE, and 2.5mg of 25I in the same night. 

On another forum there is TR from someone who consumed a smaller amount of 25x several hours after a few beers and 100mg of 6-APB and almost died, requiring full hospitalization - not just for psychosis, but real, life-endangering physical symptoms (sounded like SS).

Some posts around this were removed, this isn't an abstract post referring to nothing. It's a valid warning, mixing that much can be quite dangerous. 

To everyone who's posts were removed, it was either out of context due to other posts removed, off-topic, or arguing between you guys. It wasn't the safest combo but that doesn't mean we need to attack each other, please keep it civil. ~Jesusgreen


----------



## Jesusgreen

^ The half gram of MXE sounds the most dangerous part of the combo to me. Heard a lot of bad things about it being used in combos, and I'd definitely avoid combining it with MDMA, since it's likely to be an SRI like DXM and Ketamine. That's an insane amount too. I've "M holed" from around 80mg and I'm quite a hardhead when it comes to NMDA antagonists usually after a little K abuse a while back.

Very interesting report. Especially the bit about the "connection" between you and your girlfriend. You should add a title and such and get it over in Trip Reports, or alternatively just add a title and I can move it there and leave a link back here? :D


----------



## skillet

No, and I wouldn't have thought a reasonable amount of alcohol in the report JBrandon mentioned would be the cause of the problem, far more likely the APB IMO. I'd be pretty wary of doing combos with these, especially in 'heroic' doses.


----------



## JBrandon

So I have no clue what was said before, but the cock & balls schtick made me laugh.

Don't take it personally Cryptix, you lived and you got something out of the night, cling to that.

I'm noticing that 25I seems to be far more popular in the market than 25C... pretty surprising!


----------



## Erny

cryptix420 said:


> you guys dont deserve my report


Certainly, mixing it with just about everything you had at hand was reckless and erratic, and the dose itself might have been heroic. Had you, perhaps, tried it in a milligramm dose or a little higher before? If you are not too sensitive to it then the dose might have actually been chosen right. 

You've stumbled upon what we are actually "worshipping" it for. A powerful spiritual psychedelic drug. Yes then the dose was correct. Bad thing is that it is not for public. These people might think that's what they need, and get into what you've been while in some bad s&s and not prepared.


----------



## cryptix420

^ if you look up the NBOMe series on erowid, mine is one of the first 5 you'll see, titled i-LoVE-NBOMe. The dosage was 3.75mg, and it was damned fantastic. Aside from some vasoconstriction there were next to no negative side effects. 25i feels so benign it's not even funny. Not to mention the clear head you maintain throughout.

I'm getting a bunch of shit for eating all the drugs, but it was spaced over almost 2 days and was my first time trying either etizolam OR methoxetamine, but we had several days off and like I said wanted to get fucked. I took 100mg of MXE before I even really felt anything. Who knows if it was quality or the aniracetam I was taking. 

It just makes me a bit upset I'm over here talking about a seriously life changing spiritual awakening, and all people here can say is that I took too many drugs. I know we're about harm reduction but fuck, I'm fine guys.


----------



## Jesusgreen

Please don't fight here guys. 

The combo was a rash one, particularly combining that much MDMA with that much MXE, and could have potentially ended quite dangerously, but I think cryptix knows that just as well as anyone, and judging him for his reckless decision at the time isn't going to change it. As for it happening again, I think just the one "That was a reckless combo" post is enough to assure him not to repeat it if he didn't already know. 

There really is no need for attacking people. 

I'm going to clean this up a little. 

Feel free to add your report back cryptix if you feel like it, or post it in TR. It'd be good to have a warning though just so others don't try and attempt it, as it'd be very easy for someone to not realise you have existing tolerances, plenty of experience, and spread it over two days 

(PS, some of the posts removed made valid points, I just wanted to clean up this whole argument as one post about the possible dangers of the combo was enough, no need to clutter the thread.)


----------



## Survived Abortion

Jesusgreen said:


> Please don't fight here guys.
> 
> The combo was a rash one, particularly combining that much MDMA with that much MXE, and could have potentially ended quite dangerously, but I think cryptix knows that just as well as anyone, and judging him for his reckless decision at the time isn't going to change it.



So people speak up in the name of harm-reduction and you silence them. Really, I'm very disappointed. You may find such reckless dosing to be acceptable, but most people here do not. There was a time when Bluelight was about harm-reduction.



			
				Jesusgreen said:
			
		

> (PS, some of the posts removed made valid points, I just wanted to clean up this whole argument as one post about the possible dangers of the combo was enough, no need to clutter the thread.)


 
How is one post about the "possible dangers of the combo" (1g MDMA, 1g Etizolam, half gram MXE, and 2.5mg 25I) enough? I'm sorry, if you come to a harm-reduction forum of bright and compassionate individuals and declare the above combo, there is no way you are going to get off without rebuke. For people to not say anything would be utterly irresponsible and apathetic.


----------



## SWIMMY

*About cyclodextrins*

I still had this question...

Would beta cyclodextrin not work ? 

It seems to be cheaper that 2-hydroxypropyl beta cyclodextrin


----------



## Jesusgreen

^ I think we all know the combination was reckless, but at least 6 posts of arguing with nothing helpful. "You're the one referring to ad hominems here bro, don't get pissed at me because 3 people have called you out on a ridiculously irresponsible combination. " - that for example will just add flames to the fire.

No harm reduction has been silenced. The post with the combo itself is not there, and there is a post right where it was, clearly stating the dangers of such a combination etc.  There was a post by skillet which may help explain the dangers of the combination - but the other posts were just repetition of "That was bad, you're stupid." - which doesn't help anyone. If we want to foster a harm reduction environment we have to do it while stating the dangers WITHOUT attacking other people. 

Also, the thread doesn't need any more clutter, but I'm going to bring back skillet's post just since it wasn't really part of the argument, and made a genuine point 

Tl;dr: Just calling others stupid isn't harm reduction, particularly when other people have already given harm reduction information, explained why the combination is bad etc. SA, I sent you a PM, outlining the now-hidden posts, just so you can see my point  I very much understand why you'd be concerned though, harm reduction is the primary aim here at Bluelight, and I would never silence any attempt at it.


----------



## Erny

Survived Abortion said:


> harm-reduction forum of bright and compassionate individuals


That particular phrase made me laugh aloud. Are these people serious? Someone need to troll this harm reduction crowd of bright and compassionate individuals. I only see a crowd of youth typing useless posts. This is not an offense, I'm just writing what I really think.

cryptix420, you have mentioned the dose to be 2,5 mg here, but wrote 3,75 mg on Erowid. What was the actual dose? Also you wrote MDMA was taken 2 days prior to the 25I experience. This means you had a tolerance, for MDXX and others potent entactogens normally have a moderate cross-tolerance with psychedelics. If you wish to repeat this someday, have it in mind. It'll be better to take a lower dose if it'll be done without any tolerance. I would suggest 2 mg. I also advise you to try to take it at 1 mg dose without any tolerance just to see how far it would get you, and to do it before performing any other experiments like the one you've described.


----------



## Erny

I see you wrote it was 3,75 mg here. Where did that number (2,5) came from then? You still need to examine your own sensitivity with more attention before doing anything like this again. And it should be done without any developed tolerances from other psychedelics or entactogens. 1 mg may not differ much from 750 mcg you took before. If you'll find this to be true, then you may probably have a sensitivity as low as mine is. I need 2 mgs for a strong trip and 3 mgs for a heavy one. If, however, you will find 1 mg to be notably more intense than 750 mcg, then you rather have a sensitivity closer to normal. In this case, 1,5 or 2 mgs would be able to bring you to that same territory as these 3,75 mgs did. 

But do not expect it to always be friendly to you there. The outcome depends on you emotional state. Just like with any other powerful psychedelic, like mushrooms or others classics. Bad set may result in a bad trip. Well, I suppose you know this all yourself.


----------



## cryptix420

^ I didn't explain properly. I simply referenced the erowid report to show I had taken this substance before, several times and in higher doses. This time the dose was only 2.5mg (the time when I combined it with everything) so I was pretty sure I'd be safe.

And thanks Jesus. I was having flashbacks to pandorasbox lol...fucking internets.


----------



## Erny

cryptix420 said:


> so I was pretty sure I'd be safe.


That's a bad idea in general when handling NBOMe's. Even if you are as insensitive as I am, which seems to be true, there is always a small chance of a mistake. Be it with the dose or with some combos.

And yes, the bright compassionate crowd didn't even understood whom they're trying to attack. :D


----------



## cryptix420

speaking of mordor have you seen the hobbit trailer? I'm unsure what to think


----------



## Erny

I suppose I did not.

There where there is "mordor" written now was "Moscow" some time ago. Which is actually not true, for it is not Moscow, just not too far from it, and the actual name won't tell anything to anyone.


----------



## cryptix420

Ah I assumed you were a crazed Lord of the Rings fanatic. Bad assumption is bad :D


----------



## Jesusgreen

Lets stay on topic. All Hobbit talk belongs in: The Big & Dandy Shire Thread

Okay to try and "re"-rail the thread, subjectively how does 25I-NBOMe compare to it's 2C counterpart 2C-I for you guys? I don't hear as much about stimulations, seems more of a full blown psychedelic than a party drug to me - but it'd be interesting to hear comparisons


----------



## Erny

To finish our conversation

When you post some descriptions of your adventures you should always explain the thing about your sensitivity to this drug. For this not to look as an advertisement for fools. For the reason I've already told you - some people might think that this is what they need, while they actually do not. And for the blessed knights of light not to attack you in such foolish manner.


----------



## Erny

Jesusgreen said:


> subjectively how does 25I-NBOMe compare to it's 2C counterpart 2C-I for you guys? I don't hear as much about stimulations, seems more of a full blown psychedelic than a party drug to me - but it'd be interesting to hear comparisons


I think I've explained this already a half dosen of times here. There isn't much of 2C* here. Rather much of DO*. Actually neither of those but a thing on it's own.


----------



## thomash

so my friends have 120mg of 25I-nbome freebase dissolved in 30ml of isopropyl alcohol.

they are now wondering what best to do with this.

they have a dropper which drops consistently pure isopropyl alcohol at 40 drops per ml. 

since 1 ml of the solution contains 4mg of 25I-nbome, one drop should contain 100 micrograms of 25I-nbome. so 5 drops should be a reasonable 500 ug dose.

the question is how best to administer this.

1) 5 drops on an individual paper blotter letting the alcohol evaporate and then using the blotter sublingually
they are not sure though if the uncomplexed freebase is absorbed sublingually in any reasonable amount. has anyone tried that

they don't have access to hpbcd. they could get hold of glycerine which they have heard can help with absorption but are not sure at all about that.

2) dropping 5 drops straight into the nose. is pure isopropyl alcohol possible to administer that way or does it need to be diluted with water? (the total quantity would be a bit more than 0.1ml)

3) converting it to a salt first in a method roughly explained in the 2C-C-nbome thread
_add about .1ml of white vinegar per 5mg freebase and it should dissolve, then add water up to the until you have the the volume you want. So for 10mg freebase, added the 25c into a 10ml amber glass vial, add 0.2ml of vinegar and wait overnight or heat slightly until dissolved, add 6.5ml of water to make a solution of 150ug/0.1ml and its all set_

then dropping it on blotter or insuflating the apropriate amount of solution

4) evaporate 5 drops of the isopropyl alcohol with the freebase in a pipe and then vaporize (they would prefer using a different route of administration though, evaporation worked for them but was a bit too fast to hit. they would like a method with a more gradual onset)

5) someone else mentioned dissolving in vodka because its possible to insufflate a reasonably small amount of vodka. but there's still the doubt whether uncomplexed freebase will be absorbed at all


----------



## Survived Abortion

Erny said:


> Survived Abortion said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...harm reduction forum of bright and compassionate individuals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That particular phrase made me laugh aloud. Are these people serious? Someone need to troll this harm reduction crowd of bright and compassionate individuals. I only see a crowd of youth typing useless posts. This is not an offense, I'm just writing what I really think.
Click to expand...


Of course, Your Worthiness Upon High.


----------



## Transcendence

I see both. Do I get a prize?


----------



## wiffz

uhh please do tell: which one lasts longer 25C or 25I  ?

please state how long (estimation) THANK YOU


----------



## SpeefhEinsAchtFunf

thomash said:


> so my friends have 120mg of 25I-nbome freebase dissolved in 30ml of isopropyl alcohol.
> 
> they are now wondering what best to do with this.
> 
> they have a dropper which drops consistently pure isopropyl alcohol at 40 drops per ml.
> 
> since 1 ml of the solution contains 4mg of 25I-nbome, one drop should contain 100 micrograms of 25I-nbome. so 5 drops should be a reasonable 500 ug dose.
> 
> the question is how best to administer this.
> 
> 1) 5 drops on an individual paper blotter letting the alcohol evaporate and then using the blotter sublingually
> they are not sure though if the uncomplexed freebase is absorbed sublingually in any reasonable amount. has anyone tried that
> 
> they don't have access to hpbcd. they could get hold of glycerine which they have heard can help with absorption but are not sure at all about that.
> 
> 2) dropping 5 drops straight into the nose. is pure isopropyl alcohol possible to administer that way or does it need to be diluted with water? (the total quantity would be a bit more than 0.1ml)
> 
> 3) converting it to a salt first in a method roughly explained in the 2C-C-nbome thread
> _add about .1ml of white vinegar per 5mg freebase and it should dissolve, then add water up to the until you have the the volume you want. So for 10mg freebase, added the 25c into a 10ml amber glass vial, add 0.2ml of vinegar and wait overnight or heat slightly until dissolved, add 6.5ml of water to make a solution of 150ug/0.1ml and its all set_
> 
> then dropping it on blotter or insuflating the apropriate amount of solution
> 
> 4) evaporate 5 drops of the isopropyl alcohol with the freebase in a pipe and then vaporize (they would prefer using a different route of administration though, evaporation worked for them but was a bit too fast to hit. they would like a method with a more gradual onset)
> 
> 5) someone else mentioned dissolving in vodka because its possible to insufflate a reasonably small amount of vodka. but there's still the doubt whether uncomplexed freebase will be absorbed at all


 
I'm curious about this also, especially number 3.


----------



## sn23

Isopropyl alcohol is a bad choice for a solvent if you wanted to directly dose that solution. It's an irritant and not particularly healthy. Since these bomamines work best when you avoid oral and sublingual it comes to the more sensitive areas of the body. Moreover you can't dilute such a solution of the freebase with water because the substance will crash out and it's impossible to dose that.
These explanations are just to line out briefly why another route of preparing a solution  should be considered.

0) Getting a micropipette (expensive) or a 1 ml syringe (very cheap, recommended) is way better than counting drops. The drop size is highly variable depending for example on temperature, solvent, dropper material and geometry. With a syringe you can measure volumes to 0.1 ml very conveniently and reasonably accurate. A micropipette would still be preferred but a 1 ml syringe is close enough.

1) Since you would evaporate the alcohol it looks like a possible approach. Just search in this thread for the reports, it's likely been tried already. Try to find out how well the freebase works sublingually. My guess is not that great.

2) As explained above, an isopropyl alcohol solution shouldn't be insufflated or diluted with water.

3) *This is the way to go.* Pour the isopropyl alcohol solution in a glass vial and evaporate the solvent (no open flames! Above a radiator would be optimal). When all of the alcohol is gone you should end up with 120 mg 25I-NBOMe (if the solvent is reasonably pure; if not you have solvent residues mixed in, bad). Then you can follow the recipe you quoted. Better use 20% ethyl alcohol in water (about half the strength of vodka) instead of plain water because your stock solution should likely keep a few months at least and mold would grow if you used plain water. Aiming for a concentration with which you have one dose in about 0.1 ml is recommended so that the solution doesn't dribble out of your nose if you go for insufflating.

4) Vaporized is even more dose sensitive. Don't do that with drops. And check for the right (i.e. safe) vaped dose beforehand.

5) I'd guess it will be absorbed but since you would have to get rid of the isopropanol anyway you could just turn it into the salt too.

Hope that helped.


----------



## cryptix420

I think it's worth noting insufflating is supposed to be more speedy & less psychedelic, similar to snorting 2c's.


----------



## tregar

I thought this was interesting quote on 25i-nbome from Nichols:

http://www.heffter.org/docs/hrireview/01/chapter5.pdf

http://www.heffter.org/docs/hrireview/02/chap5.pdf

See top of page 45 for quote from the following top paper:

Nichols, Medicinal chemistry of phenethylamines:


> Recently, for example, we have "stumbled" upon a simple phenethylamine molecule that has affinity for the 5-HT2A receptor nearly 100-fold higher than any other compound discovered to date, including LSD itself!


5-HT2A is believed to be the "power on" switch which requires agonism in order to experience the Psychedelic State (and especially the "visual psychedelic state"), with 5-meo-dmt being the lone exception while not being particularly visual, does not require 5-HT2A agonism.

Whereas acid hits the 5-HT2A receptor at 3.0, 25i-nbome is able to hit it at 0.03, with never before seen potency. Channel this incredible visual power with mescaline (or some other 5-HT1 agonist) which links up all the 5-HT1 receptors located all over the brain, and you can see why the visual quality to the combined mescaline + 25i trips we have experienced is outstanding, never mind the audial component which is just as mind-blowing, and the complete mind-manifestation. Acid has met it's match.


----------



## cryptix420

^ mescaline is rare as fuck unfortunately


----------



## skillet

tregar said:


> with 5-meo-dmt being the lone exception while not being particularly visual, does not require 5-HT2A agonism.



Are you basing that on the Ray paper? I'd bet if someone took 5-MeO-DMT after ketanserin or MDL not much would happen.

Cryptix, unless cactus is banned where you live mescaline shouldn't be too hard to get hold of.


----------



## Jesusgreen

^ Not everyone wants to chomp down a ton of cactus though. I'm personally holding out for some Mescaline suphate/HCl myself, though I'll probably give in and go the cactus route soon enough - I feel if I did go with cactus I'd have to grow it myself to really enjoy it. 

Man 25I-NBOMe sounds more interesting by the day.. If only I hadn't just racked up some huge debts I'd go get my hands on some. Oh well, soon enough! :D


----------



## skillet

Extract it, duh


----------



## cryptix420

Jesusgreen said:


> I feel if I did go with cactus I'd have to grow it myself to really enjoy it.




hope you got a few years to kill. i'm also unsure of how sunny poland is


----------



## Jesusgreen

cryptix420 said:


> hope you got a few years to kill. i'm also unsure of how sunny poland is



Poland is sunnier than England haha, very hot summers, just harsh winters. I wouldn't necessarily do it while I was still here though.


----------



## Transcendence

skillet said:


> Extract it, duh


 
Have you ever extracted mescaline from cactus? Extracting most pure alkaloids from natural sources is a very long and tedious process that includes many seperation and purification procedures because there are hundreds of alkaloids in any given plant. The only really easy extraction I'm aware of is trimyristin from nutmeg (and this is only easy if you have basic organic chemistry knowledge and access to specific solvents and glassware).


----------



## skillet

No, but it sounds like an alcohol extraction, followed by acid-base isn't too bad. I'm used to long, tedious processes though :D


----------



## thomash

SpeefhEinsAchtFunf: thanks so much for your feedback. it has been very helpful


so they tried this:
_add about .1ml of white vinegar per 5mg freebase and it should dissolve, then add water up to the until you have the the volume you want. So for 10mg freebase, added the 25c into a 10ml amber glass vial, add 0.2ml of vinegar and wait overnight or heat slightly until dissolved, add 6.5ml of water to make a solution of 150ug/0.1ml and its all set_

but had trouble dissolving it. it didnt seem to mix at all with the vinegar creating a cloudy solution. they added a bit more vinegar and will leave it overnight to see what happens but so far it seems it isn't dissolving.

any ideas? they are sure they have freebase.

they tried just insufflating a pure drop of isopropyl alcohol which didnt seem to have any adverse effects. in such small quantities it didnt seem irritable. maybe they will try insufflating the isopropyl alcohol with 4mg/ml. (but only a total of 0.1ml to get a dose of 400ug)


----------



## cryptix420

thomash said:


> they tried just insufflating a pure drop of isopropyl alcohol which didnt seem to have any adverse effects.



This is pretty funny when taken out of context

really though, snorting alcohol sounds fun



as for all the stuff you guys are talking about with vinegar and whatnot....is that method supposed to bypass whatever reason you need HPBCD for? Using that is what makes it active....so how can you NOT use it? Either method #3 is crap or I'm missing something.


----------



## thomash

cryptix420 said:


> as for all the stuff you guys are talking about with vinegar and whatnot....is that method supposed to bypass whatever reason you need HPBCD for? Using that is what makes it active....so how can you NOT use it? Either method #3 is crap or I'm missing something.


 
from what i've read substances in freebase form are not absorbed well. vinegar turns the substance into a salt which is supposed to have better absorption through the mucous membranes.

it seems hpbcd improves this absorption even more.

one of the group insufflated a little bit of IPA containing 500ug of freebase and had a pretty strong experience. another one droppe the solution containing 500ug on a paper and consumed it sublingually (without hpbcd or turning it into salt) and had a visually active but mellow experience.

so it seems to be possible to use it in freebase form both sublingually and per insufflation


----------



## reformer

*Chiming in here!*

Since this is turning into the one of the wierdest, most disparate and at-times-combative threads I've ever seen on BL, I wanna chime in on a couple of things that are bothering me. From the recent looks of it most folks here are phoning in their partially thought out posts from waystations located in the hinterland limbo that is also known as "not-quite-baseline".

1) 


Erny said:


> And for the blessed knights of light not to attack you in such foolish manner.



Wow, Erny can you please recognize that it is not only you who is capable of offering timely and deep advice on tolerance, dose and experience? Cynicism will get you nowhere here. And more importantly, there is no need to rile up and rally the up-n-comers in some kinda "us vs them mentality" so that they view the Harm Reduction messages in a negative light (e.g. your "Blessed Knights of the Light who attack n00bs in a foolish manner]. Sure some responders go overboard, some give helpful details, and some help the young 'uns plot a course for future action and enlightenment. 

It's all part of the community of BL, and each plays a role... Sometimes we even trade costumes and reverse roles. e.g. I like to give a heartfelt measured response, but sometimes I blast off on someone who is surely going to ruin a newly available and potentially world-changing molecule by doing stupid things and bringing it to the attention of the jack-booted thugs in black helicopters. Its all good man. Intricate the n00bs with us, don't extricate them to mordor.

2) 


thomash said:


> so my friends have 120mg of 25I-nbome freebase dissolved in 30ml of isopropyl alcohol.
> 
> they are now wondering what best to do with this.
> 
> they have a dropper which drops consistently pure isopropyl alcohol at 40 drops per ml.
> 
> since 1 ml of the solution contains 4mg of 25I-nbome, one drop should contain 100 micrograms of 25I-nbome. so 5 drops should be a reasonable 500 ug dose.
> 
> the question is how best to administer this.


 
Can you all please start presenting your inquiries and dilemnas in dimensional analysis form? Please? Pretty please with a cherry on top? It *really* provides a context-free way to see what the issue is and how to resolve it.

I'm not trying to dictate the mode of posting here, but it really and truly helps evolve the whole community towards a more succinct, less ambiguous form of communication.

*Can we all try it please? The Key is that all extraneous details drop out, and all units except the final desired ones are eliminated.*

So, accepting the volumetrics of your tools, we have:

*(120mg 25I/30ml iPrOH)*(ml iPrOH/40 Drops) = 0.1 mg 25I/drop iPrOH*

Ok, now that the plea for standardization of communicating dosages/volums and masses is out of the way... I'd like to give my opinion on the three options you developed.

Go with Number 1 (drop on blotter and use psykap's upper buccal ROA). This should get you there, and the idea of 0.5 mg (5 drops) per blot is a good starting place.

In formal form it looks like this:

*(120mg 25I/30ml iPrOH)*(1ml iPrOH/40 Drops)*(5 drops/Blotter) = 0.5 mg/ Blotter*

Frankly though, if it were me, I'd *dry down ~10 drops of the 25I-iPrOH solution (sol'n) in a small tube, leaving a residue that can be taken up/dissolved into a water/vinegar sol'n.* This enables you to not dilute the overall sol'n further by adding water/vinegar sol'n to the 25I-iPrOH sol'n. 

So, [PER USE @ 1 mg] dry down the 10 drops of 25I-iPrOH sol'n and take it back up/dissolve in 0.1 ml of 1:1 diluted vinegar (NOTE: 0.1 ml of 1:1 diluted vinegar = 4 of your drops using your calibrated dropper, which I calculate as 0.025 ml/drop, given your saying that you can count on 40 drops/ml). You can scale this up accordingly.

Formally [PER USE @ 1 mg]:

(0.1mg 25I/drop 25I-iPrOH sol'n)*(10 drops 25I-iPrOH/tube)[insert dry step here]*(1/0.1ml 1:1 vinegar water sol'n) = 1mg 25I-acetate in 0.1 ml 1:1 vinegar water sol'n. This is suitable for liquid insufflation of ~0.03 to 0.05 ml sol'n delivering 300-500 mcg 25I.


----------



## Erny

Someone still wants to argue.



reformer said:


> Wow, Erny can you please recognize that it is not only you who is capable of offering timely and deep advice on tolerance, dose and experience?


This is good to hear.



> so that they view the Harm Reduction messages in a negative light


Have you seen what was happening here? Some people have got overzealous. What was named "compassion" was actually flaming, it has nothing to do with harm reduction unfortunately, be it even "in the name of harm reduction" (what a nonsense 8( ). Or whatever. So, our hero erased his posts and turned his back upon you. Was it me who forced him into this position now?


----------



## cryptix420

reformer said:


> Wow, Erny can you please recognize that it is not only you who is capable of offering timely and deep advice on tolerance, dose and experience? Cynicism will get you nowhere here. And more importantly, there is no need to rile up and rally the up-n-comers in some kinda "us vs them mentality" so that they view the Harm Reduction messages in a negative light (e.g. your "Blessed Knights of the Light who attack n00bs in a foolish manner]. Sure some responders go overboard, some give helpful details, and some help the young 'uns plot a course for future action and enlightenment.
> 
> It's all part of the community of BL, and each plays a role... Sometimes we even trade costumes and reverse roles. e.g. I like to give a heartfelt measured response, but sometimes I blast off on someone who is surely going to ruin a newly available and potentially world-changing molecule by doing stupid things and bringing it to the attention of the jack-booted thugs in black helicopters. Its all good man. Intricate the n00bs with us, don't extricate them to mordor.



So you are helping me to find elightenment then? lol. If we were talking about a DOx compound, or even 2c-t-2, I would understand a bit more, as those have shown themselves to be a bit less safe. 25i is so goddamned benign I'd feed it to a whole litter of newly born baby kittens. Not really, but I'm trying to get the point across. You strike me as pretentious when you talk about me ruining a potentially 'world changing molecule' when in fact I am only furthering it; not only by taking a chemical that has been known to mankind for less than 2 years and then sharing what I experienced, but by enlargening the safety profile of the compound by taking it with DXM, MDMA, and MXE. 

On top of that, the combination of said substances resulted in the single most profound experience of my entire life. I may be young, but I have seen much of what this world has to offer. I've been to jail for pot, I've been homeless, and I make it on my own so watch who you so pompously call a noob. Before said experience, I was of the belief that existence was all in all pointless, and we more or less go to sleep when we die, i.e. there is no 'after life' just black void. I did not believe humans were spiritual beings.

This trip changed ALL of that. It may have been quite a cocktail of drugs, and not the most well-planned research, but god damnit it changed my life!! I now KNOW we are ALL spiritual beings, all of the same great universal collective pool of energy, all ONE and the same if you go deep enough. Makes me rethink the way I approach so many things. I struggled with kleptomania (a serious fucking disorder.) for the better part of 12 years. It's now been over 2 months since I stole a single thing, and I put that in the same light as an H junkie not touching the needle. That's how hard this is for me. Only now it's different, there is no going back to the old way of doing things. Knowing I have all this SOUL inside of me, knowing that when I walk around I am simply pushing through billowing clouds of energy, all manifested in different ways. I can look to my side and see all the shrubs and trees and greenery and although it may appear there is space between me and them, there is not. We are connected. There is SO much more to perceive than our 5 senses afford us. 

And now when it comes to anything psychic related....I can no longer be a skeptic. When I was on that trip, my gf and I literally became ONE being. I could see her aura manifesting in colors different than those I normally see on 25i, and I KNEW it was her spirit. Nothing could be kept from one another, our minds and souls had melded. 


I suppose I'm rambling now..the point is that the haters annoyed me because this experience was so special to me. People wanna say my combination of drugs was unsafe...well I say that fast food YOU eat is unsafe, that coca cola you chug is so nasty, MMM all those frozen and canned foots you eat filling you up with poisonous NaCl, get that aspartame oh yeah gobble up that MSG! Betcha didn't know it metabolizes to formaldehyde, among other cancer causing things. 

So yes, let us reduce harm.


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## Erny

I just hope you do not believe it is as safe for everyone as it is safe for you. People are different. Some has got into serious trouble with it. There is no such thing as a safe drug that seriously alters the CNS functioning. This is impossible.


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## cryptix420

^ Of course not, but it is still nice to know it's not a certain death combination to take it with other substances, like say DXM & MDMA together. Someone had to be the first one to take LSD with MDMA without knowing it was safe..

The point of my post was never to say "25i is as safe as elmer's glue, kids!" but rather "this shit changed my life, yo"

I now have 8 different people within my circle who have tried it, the newest one being freehugs from BL itself. All feedback has been immensely positive (you can't even get those results with weed lol). He posted a trip report a couple days ago over in TR.

I do however believe more people should try to get ahold of this compound. I've tried LSD several times and never got anywhere near the results that I did with 25i, but YMMV.


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## Erny

Good. The way you advertise it is a bit frightening, you just never got into trouble with it, which isn't actually impossible. I suppose you perfectly understand this yourself.

It seem to me that not just everyone is comfortable with iodine. Methyl is a better candidate for what you want. I personally still see it as a chemical weapon most people should better avoid. By "methyl" I mean 25D-NBOMe. It's also a weapon, but a bit safer I believe.


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## Eshu2012

*Red the thread...but sill have ?s*

25I is in both HCL and Freebase forms...

can the HCL be vaporized(as is) and if yes, does the same dose vaporized HCL vs Freebase produce the same effect?

Which will dissolve into solution easier in 'everclear'?

If dissolved in 'everclear' can the resulting solution be vaporized (not letting the everclear evaporate out)...therefore a better ability to titrate the dose?

Is one form more stable than the other for long term storage?

I belive from the previous posts that both the HCL and Freebase are more bioavailable when complexed..?  Some reports say that the HCL "should not need to be complexed"..but there seem to be mixed findings?

Anyone else have more information about a supposed 'bad batch' that was availavle a few months ago? (is this stuff gone.....)


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## MollayLujah

Just took the plung an hav a 500ug blotter under my toungue as w spaek...I was just hoping to have a nice night without too much in th mental area.

This will b my first tru RC XP so IM a little nrvous.

I hav som 2ng ativan to hlp if anything gets uncomfoirtable

WHat shoul I expect


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## IamMe90

Is the blotter complexed and do you know whether or not the 25i is freebase or hcl?

I wouldn't expect too much from 500ug sublingual. Depending on how effective your technique is and whether or not it is freebase or hcl it could be very weak to average strength. I doubt you'll need the ativan if you have any experience with psychedelics.


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## MollayLujah

I have a ton of exp with them, just not this in particulr.....I bought 1x 500ug complexed,....I was expecing a quick come on and its been over an hour wioth nothing im noticing.


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## MollayLujah

Just gtting antsy, expecting a day long adventure of mind and sould and am very worrioed Its going to do nothing


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## skillet

Eshu2012 said:


> 25I is in both HCL and Freebase forms...
> 
> can the HCL be vaporized(as is) and if yes, does the same dose vaporized HCL vs Freebase produce the same effect?



HCl salt apparently vapourises cleaner (with less signs of decomposition.) You'd have to add around 10% to the mass of the freebase to get an equivalent dose of the HCl salt, but with variable vapourisation efficiency that's probably irrelevant.



> Which will dissolve into solution easier in 'everclear'?



I'd think the freebase, by far, but diluting with water will cause the solubility to plummet. The HCl should be easily soluble enough to give pretty high concentrations though.



> If dissolved in 'everclear' can the resulting solution be vaporized (not letting the everclear evaporate out)...therefore a better ability to titrate the dose?



No, you'd have to evaporate the alcohol before the 25I would start to vapourise.



> Is one form more stable than the other for long term storage?



HCl is more stable.




MollayLujah said:


> Just took the plung an hav a 500ug blotter under my toungue as w spaek...I was just hoping to have a nice night without too much in th mental area.
> 
> This will b my first tru RC XP so IM a little nrvous.
> 
> I hav som 2ng ativan to hlp if anything gets uncomfoirtable
> 
> WHat shoul I expect



Buccal (between cheek and upper gums) is said to be better, I guess because there are no salivary glands there?. Saliva produced from under your tongue will probably wash some of the compound out before it can be absorbed, so you have to pay particular attention to not swallowing any of the saliva for 30 mins or so. I guess that's less important for buccal.

25I apparently has the longest come up of the series too, so give it some more time and hopefully it'll start working soon.


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## bluedolphin

What is the recommended dose for Non-Complexed Blotter taken Buccal for a medium +++ trip? (nothing too hardcore, nothing too weak) ?


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## bluedolphin

Survived Abortion said:


> So people speak up in the name of harm-reduction and you silence them. Really, I'm very disappointed. You may find such reckless dosing to be acceptable, but most people here do not. There was a time when Bluelight was about harm-reduction.
> 
> How is one post about the "possible dangers of the combo" (1g MDMA, 1g Etizolam, half gram MXE, and 2.5mg 25I) enough? I'm sorry, if you come to a harm-reduction forum of bright and compassionate individuals and declare the above combo, there is no way you are going to get off without rebuke. For people to not say anything would be utterly irresponsible and apathetic.



I don't want to overstep my bounds here but as a former PD mod and mods of other forums here I think Jesusgreen is handling this just as it should. Yes this forum is about harm reduction, but yes it is also a psychedelic forum and the nature of psychedelic drug use for many people is to push the limits. Many of us, if not most of us, have gone too far one or many times and learned our lessons. These drugs will not kill us (USUALLY)... but they might, and on occasion they do. But really, on quite *rare* occasion, they do.

So it is important to mention to people who post about using high doses or unseemly combinations that they should probably not do that, and tell them why.

But it is not necessary to keep nagging on it and harass the person who came on here to report the results of their adventure. In the end, they are going to do what they want to do. We can only say so much. And we're all drug users, here, aren't we?

Harm reduction, yes. But making people feel like assholes because they took a high dose of some psychedelic, lived, and told the story? No.


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## MattPsy

Yes, but one gram of MDMA is going to probably kill you or at the very least require a hospital visit for delirium and hyperthermia, probably with long-lasting brain damage. If telling someone not to do that isn't harm reduction, I don't know what is.


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## LogicSoDeveloped

I know multiple people who have taken such a dose of MDMA throughout a night and while the comedown wasn't pleasant for them, they are certainly still alive.

I don't understand why people keep pushing that such a dose is deadly. I certainly wouldn't recommend it but I feel that all that needs to be said has been said.


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## SONN

Idk why there is no trip report section for the NBOMe chemicals yet. I posted a youtube video trip report on my experience overdosing on 25i-NBOMe. I also posted a trip report here on bluelight. Just google "vaporizing 25i" it should be the first result. My youtube video is a response to the Neurosoup video on the NBOMe series of Rcs. You guys should look 'em up.


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## MattPsy

LogicSD: yes, over a night, but all at once, probably a different story.

So now there's YOUTUBE VIDEOS of people smoking 25I?! Are you TRYING to get these valuable scientific tools scheduled as fast as possible? Do you even think about this at all?


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## IamMe90

Having a couple very positive buccal experiences at the 1-2mg range, I decided to try things out nasally this time, and admittedly started a bit too high. The combo wasn't dangerous at all but it was extremely, extremely strong and uncomfortable. 2mg nasal + 2 hits of strong LSD 

The visuals were so outrageous I just couldn't see around me more than a few feet from all of the fractal OEVs flying everywhere, music was insane, it was mentally very confusing. Next time I'll try 1mg nasal by itself and see how that goes. I do plan to explore that dosage range again though, but more prepared.


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## RobotRipping

anyone else get a gross chemical taste in their mouth 6+ hours after dosing this stuff? It's not that bad but certainly apparent. I do sublingual/buccal dosing with an alcohol solution. 

I've only had one run using this chem that lasted 3 days, starting at .5mg and going up to 1.5 or so on the last dose keeping me decently tripping for 3 days. The come down sucked but it doesn't seem to me that tolerance is that big of an issue, if 500mcg is active then doubling up to a whole mg isn't a big deal. 

the trip does kind of remind me of a 2c but without the body load and anxiety. I'll still get a bit sick but it's manageable. This is a fucking wonderful compound, the potency is impressive and dangerous to those ignorant to dosing so little.
Hopefully things stay quiet and not many people like this stuff; it can be intensely psychedelic so I'd think most people would avoid it. 25i replaces 2c-e for me; the trip is just much better. It ranks up there with 4-aco-dmt as one of the best psychedelics around.

just some thoughts...


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## SONN

I suppose that me making a youtube video trip report is a bit unsafe in terms of maintaining the legality of these prized substances, but I only posted it after I saw that there was a neurosoup vid about the NBOMe series. If you guys really think I should remove it I will. In the meantime, I will change the title of the vid from 'overdose' to 'unmeasured vape dose.' just to shift away from the negative connotation.


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## Ralt

SONN said:


> I suppose that me making a youtube video trip report is a bit unsafe in terms of maintaining the legality of these prized substances, but I only posted it after I saw that there was a neurosoup vid about the NBOMe series. If you guys really think I should remove it I will. In the meantime, I will change the title of the vid from 'overdose' to 'unmeasured vape dose.' just to shift away from the negative connotation.


 I'm gonna say yes. People raising the knowledge of the public about rc's isn't good in anyway. The RC scene is already disturbingly above ground.


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## Erny

bluedolphin said:


> What is the recommended dose for Non-Complexed Blotter taken Buccal for a medium +++ trip? (nothing too hardcore, nothing too weak) ?


I suppose no one will be able to give you a good advice on that. This is not quite LSD or MDMA in this regard, unfortunately. If anyone will try, however, I advise you to take that with some doubt. There is a chance our advices won't fit your needs and/or sensitivity. Better do not try to get a "perfect" experience in an instant. Better check your sensitivity and overall reaction to this drug first, with a moderate dose. Then, if it suits you, proceed with the dose you need.


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## hx_

SONN said:


> I suppose that me making a youtube video trip report is a bit unsafe in terms of maintaining the legality of these prized substances, but I only posted it after I saw that there was a neurosoup vid about the NBOMe series. If you guys really think I should remove it I will. In the meantime, I will change the title of the vid from 'overdose' to 'unmeasured vape dose.' just to shift away from the negative connotation.



Delete it you idiot. You trying to get these chemicals banned? Youtube IS NOT the place ffs! Just take 5 mins to type out a trip report like a normal person would.


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## Silver2103

Any of you have any experience with this chemical and what the appropriate dosage would be in micrograms?


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## IamMe90

How about trying to read any of the 19 pages in the thread concerning dosages...


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## Transform

Start with 100ug. Work your way up. Most people are satisfied with 500ug.

I would say keep such things off of youtube. The audience there is largely one which I think could do without exposure to such information without seeking it out.


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## IamMe90

What kind of ROA are you talking about transform? Most people simply are not satisfied with 500ug buccaly. It's still good advice, but I'm guessing he'll end up having to go higher than that.


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## Transform

Either. Honestly, I figured if it's the kind of person who at least won't have a skip through the thread, then a conservative suggestion is probably best.


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## SONN

Transform said:


> I would say keep such things off of youtube. The audience there is largely one which I think could do without exposure to such information without seeking it out.


 
That's why I posted it as a reply to the NBOMe neurosoup video. I already typed up my trip report and its here on bluelight. I can change the vid from being public and make it only accessable through a link that I would post to this thread if you want..


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## rogueone

*Substitute for Lucy???*

Okay folks, must chime in here.  Currently my cat is under the influence of 25i.  To say this is a substitute for Lucy is laughable (to me).  Some of you here seem to think that you have found some new high priest worthy RC.  Here's my opinion. After many many years of researching both anecdotal reports and scientific literature, combined with my own experience I've come to the firm conclusion that only a very small portion of the population has actually experienced true and genuine L.  It was being made in the 90's before the last operation was shut down in 2000.  Even then if you didn't get the real thing, you got something else and in those days before the RC boom, some of that bathtub blotter was just hardcore brain twisting fun-house shit (probably DOx related).  Having tasted the real thing I can say without a shadow of a doubt that a warped ride through fractal land is NOT the L experience.  You can flame what I say all you want. But these are just words going up against words.  Truth is I don't care about hurting anyone's feelings in here.  I'm speaking from my own experience and you can take it for what it's worth even if it pisses you off.  The reason I'm writing this is because once again I allowed my hopes to get up about this new RC based on experiences that others were having - so this is my rant in light of pure disappointment.

That said, these PEA's, these foul little beasts made in China are just what they are.  There is no substitute for genuine Lucy and you will never know that until you've tasted her.  My point is not to suggest that any of you reading this have not had genuine L.  My point is to say that if you have had a date with the real Lucy, you would know, and you would never think the same way again about all these wanna-be psychedelic RC's.  I'm not saying one can't trip out with these RC's.  One most certainly can.  But, what created the hippie movement in the 60's is no longer with us.  It's locked away for now in uncle sam's safe.

There is no substitute for the real thing and let me explain why very simply.  It matters not how close of a match that you find with receptor agonist profiles with whatever combination of chemicals that you can fit into your evening.  The action of the molecules at the receptor sites is what makes all the difference!  Many keys may fit the same locks, but it's what the key does that matters most.  Think about it: does mescaline produce the same effect as serotonin at a 5ht2a receptor site?  Obviously not.  So why should anyone think that just because a molecule has the ability to bind to a receptor that it will produce the same effect as any other molecule that has the same binding affinity?  That is silly.  It is the specific structure of the molecule and exactly how it fits and influences the receptor that it binds to that counts.  

Lucy is the perfect key that turns on inner harmony.  It is electrical and vibrating harmonious love/energy that heals the mind and body.  One cannot control the urge to literally fly on true L.  It is the most ecstatic truly euphoric experience that one can have and the best crystal molly can't hold a candle to it.  The healing lasts for a very long time many months indeed.  I'm not talking about a cute little "afterglow" that lasts a few days to a week.  I'm talking about a full blown reshaping of ones mental faculties into a state of crystal clarity that lasts for months on end.  Tell me, has any blotter done that for you lately?  What about your favorite RC?  Hmm???

No RC has produced anything like real L for me.  Some of them HAVE however felt eerily similar in nature to blotters that were sold to me as L.  So, if you don't mind feeling speedy, tingly, twitchy, cold/hot, sweaty, achy, poisoned, and weird with jaws clenched just so that you can "see visions" then keep going with these RC's.  My advice? At least stick with the natural versions mescaline, mushrooms, or ayahuasca.  More than likely the naturals are less toxic because (probably) the body knows more about what to do with them metabolically.

Happy 2012 from an old hippie!


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## greenmeanies

SOrry to rain on your parade, but I'm one of the many people who are intrigued by 25I trip reports. To suggest that LSD is somehow godly gifted while anything made in china is shite? You end you post by saying that we should stick to the "natural versions" of which LSD is most certainly not one!

Care to actually tell us what it is about 25I that makes you think it is just a foul little beast? Many people have reported that it is far cleaner feeling than any other PEA, rivaling LSD in its ability to guide a beautiful trip.


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## LogicSoDeveloped

I've met people that don't believe real LSD is around. They are wrong of course. Some of them happen to be "old hippies" actually. While the average street blotter isn't going to contain 300 mcg of clean, amazing LSD, there is still some decent strength blotter floating around and while there are DOx compounds, it is best to find trustworthy individuals. My psychedelic use has definitely given me this ability to sense vibes from people-I'm not saying I'm psychic but I can generally tell fairly quickly if someone is likeminded about psychedelics and if they seem able to get quality product. 

People have quite legitimate psychedelic experiences on the 2c-x compounds. I think some take them lightly due to their low cost and high availability however.

I'm interested in 25i, I should be able to report back within a few days on what I think of it seeing as while I haven't tried it yet, I should have an order in when I get back to where I'm currently living.

I just feel like some people are too jaded/cynical to enjoy some things anymore. Psychedelics are still quite magical and enlightening to me and I have tripped quite often in the last two years. One of my resolutions is to cut down to make my experiences more special at the same time pushing doses higher.


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## TheAppleCore

LogicSoDeveloped said:


> Psychedelics are still quite magical and enlightening to me and I have tripped quite often in the last two years. One of my resolutions is to cut down to make my experiences more special at the same time pushing doses higher.



I do agree that it is quite possible to trip far too often. But, I have a suspicion that a lot of the purported "loss of magic" due to increased frequency of tripping is probably just due to the fact that, between trips, you don't have as much time for the cognitive spiderwebs to start creeping in, and for sobriety to carefully rebuild its cultural cage around your intellectual and creative freedom, before the next psychedelic trip knocks it all back down again. In other words, the "magic" that comes from waiting months and months between trips is analogous to the beauty and joy of being freed from an imprisonment that you imposed upon yourself: ultimately, you're getting nowhere.

Just a little bit of food for thought. I'm not trying to preach anything.


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## RobotRipping

I wouldn't worry about tripping too much; for me it was a phase. Now I have psychedelics around all the time once or twice a month is the mos that i'll do and that's after years of heavy use and binging.

no 25i is not like LSD - but there are some similarities just in the dosage range and feelings during the trip. 25i gives those classic mescaline like floating, waving visual alterations and has a very magical feeling sometimes. I've had LSD enough to know the trip well compared to PEA type trips and yeah there are differences, they don't replace each other but who cares. I'd like LSD and 25-i and every other psychedelic in my arsenal because there are different occasions i would use each for.

i'm going to buccal dose today at 1mg hopefully it goes well.
I just dosed and it's difficult  to keep a few drops somewhere in your cheek and gums, oh well it went under the tongue and all over my gums. 

^ agree with the above 3 posters. 

@rogueone: This isn't some 'chinese' fuck up of a psychedelic, whatever you were implying it sounds racist. lol the Chinese have been making quality chems for years and if they were allowed to synth lsd over there it'd be top notch.


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## IamMe90

I have to agree with your earlier post robotripipng: this replaces 2c-e for me as well. Of course, I'll still use 2c-e from time to time because I find it to be a somewhat deeper experience (albeit in a very negative way) and it does outshine 25i visually for me, but 25i is better in every other respect. It is a magical, almost perfect chemical for me. 

The visuals are not top notch but are certainly good enough. To me, they are like what I imagined LSD to be like - TONS of fractals, and I mean ton. Like, my CEVs on 1mg + nasally are literally just fractals crammed into my visual space. It can get a bit redundant but it's still cool.


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## RobotRipping

the visuals I get on LSD are just of a different nature. It's like taking two substances to the same destination but taking two different routes. You end up at the same place but the ride there is quite different. I don't get fractals unless it's CEV but the waving, distorting, letters moving all over the place when i try to read, patterns spinning, walls breathing, those are the typical visuals for PEA's for me (and colors are SO bright), they just differ slightly between each other. Visuals from LSD or even mushrooms/4-aco-dmt are different, like seeing falling sand, huge distortions, less brightness on the colors (i'm leaving out lots here). 

The tripping headspace isn't that much different though IMO and that's where I see 25i compare to LSD in power. Sure 2c-e is more profound but with terrible body load. 2c-p tops 2c-e but lasts forever. Now I've just got to try 25e,f,p and i'm betting i'll find a true contender for LSD aside from just good old mescaline  .


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## bluedolphin

No drug should be meant to replace any other drug. LSD will never be replaced, it is nearly perfect. But it is not perfect, and no drug I've ever tried is. In my opinion Psilocin is slightly closer to what I would consider a perfect psychedelic, but still LSD is preferable in some ways (mostly being that it is more fun). To suggest that nobody has got real LSD since the year 2000 is laughable and a stereotypical "old hippie" comment based on nostalgic ignorance.

I haven't tried 25i-nbome but I probably will soon. I don't expect it to replace any other psychedelic or even resemble any other psychedelic. But I do expect it to be a relatively clean, nicely visual psychedelic with a positive mindspace... at least that is what I have heard.


----------



## rogueone

greenmeanies said:


> SOrry to rain on your parade, but I'm one of the many people who are intrigued by 25I trip reports. To suggest that LSD is somehow godly gifted while anything made in china is shite? You end you post by saying that we should stick to the "natural versions" of which LSD is most certainly not one!
> 
> Care to actually tell us what it is about 25I that makes you think it is just a foul little beast? Many people have reported that it is far cleaner feeling than any other PEA, rivaling LSD in its ability to guide a beautiful trip.



LOL Greenmeanies, you didn't rain on my parade man! But I want you to know that you are questioning a practical library of information regarding this subject.  So, I feel obliged to clarify.  Of course LSD is not a naturally occurring psychedelic.  Neither are synthetically derived versions of mescaline, psilocin/psilocybin, DMT, muscimol, etc.  Any naturally occurring psychedelic can be made by synthetic means.  But whether man isolates them from a natural source or makes them synthetically should make no difference in toxicity levels.  With the exception of course being cases of contamination in the final product due to poor quality control, which is unusual, probably even in China. The point I was trying to make is that toxicity levels of naturally occurring psychedelic alkaloids have been well studied in humans prior to when the drug scheduling system came about.  The metabolic pathways for research chemicals are not being studied in humans because the FDA wouldn't approve such research.  So, we are guinea pigs, plain and simple.

LSD is NOT totally synthetic anyway.  It can be, just like the naturally occurring psychedelic alkaloids as mentioned above.  However, economically speaking it was deemed by Sandoz to be more feasible to use a semi-synthetic route.  By cleaving the amides through hydrolysis of the various lysergic acid amides of the ergot fungus one is left with pure lysergic acid.  This is a chemical process performed on a "natural" occurring fungus material.  In most cases ergotamine tartrate is the starting material for LSD synthesis.  If pure d-lysergic acid hydrate is the starting material, then amide cleaving is a skipped step.  In the case of ergotamine tartrate however, after amide cleaving, then, through a peptide coupling reaction with a catalyst such as POCL3, diethylamine is bonded to the lysergic acid to form d-lysergic acid diethylamide.  Then, after chromatography and re-crystallization an acid (usually tartaric acid) is added to form a salt, which can be stored as is or better yet in distilled H2O away from light/heat/air.

Some of the procedure that i just mentioned was extraneous and beside the point.  The point is that for the sake of clarification, LSD is generally not totally synthetic.  But that matters not.  What does matter is that human toxicological data exists, albeit old data, but nevertheless it's available.  Real, genuine, pure LSD is known to be extremely tolerable to the human body and practically non-toxic (although nothing is completely non-toxic, one can die from drinking excess water).  On the other hand - real, genuine, street blotter - LMFAO contains??????  Who knows what it is?  I believe in most cases that what is sold as LSD on the streets are the infamous hallucinogenic substituted amphetamine molecules (AKA DOx).

I tasted that shit many many times back in the 90's and some in the 00's until I finally gave up on street acid.  Only once out of 60+ attempts, back in 1997, did the real thing fall in my lap.  Real Lucy didn't come on some thick blotter tab which one could fit as much of a milligram or more of some substance on.  No indeed, it came on an eighth by sixteenth inch piece of plain white paper that was as thin as grade school notebook paper.  Truly, that small of an amount of paper could only hold no more than 200 mics of any substance.  After years of researching the literature I believe it was around 75 to 100 mics.  The paper made my taste buds "vibrate" with a buzz similar in nature to touching my tongue to a weak 9v battery.  There was no flavor, just a buzzing feeling.

Because of your experience, most of you would think tongue buzzing blotter is something totally different than Lucy.  You might think it sounds more like battery acid.  When it first went in my mouth I thought EXACTLY the same thing.  I soon found out that I was wrong and had been wrong about all the prior weird half-assed fun-house trips. Real Lucy didn't just make me trip.  If you went sky diving while on pure MDMA you might get close to the feeling.  Combine that with a strong surge of electrical vibrating energy flowing through the body.  I don't mean some woo woo new age - feel the energy emitted by quartz crystals, subjective, placebo, half-assed mostly in the mind effect.  And contrary to what Stanislav Grof would have you think, the vibration does not feel the same as with holotropic breathing, because I've tried that too.  I'm talking full-blown surges of euphoric ecstasy in the form of electric feeling vibrating energy moving from the tips of your toes, through your body, and out through the top of your head - while seeing the energy flow in and out of you.

I realize, that on these PEA's, some of these effects could seem to be subjectively duplicated.  But, although visually crazy and at times amazing, these research chemicals and even the naturals in most cases, don't feel in my body ANYTHING as amazing as the real true Lucy.  If you believe that you've had real L and it didn't feel - in your body - like the most amazing, beautiful, euphoric ecstasy - better than any opiate or MDMA - then (most likely) you had something else.

If you say I'm full of shit, don't know what I'm talking about, etc.  I don't care!  I've researched the subject to death, read many books, papers, and anecdotal experiences online, and have my own experience of over 15 years.  For me, it's really all about the one experience I had with it that gives me all the confidence I have.  One date with true Lucy is enough to change one's mind permanently about the subject of LSD.  And please don't bother me with the set and setting argument, I will chew that argument to pieces and spit it back at anyone.

Regarding 25i-nbome.  If people are having pleasant feelings it may be that they aren't having bad physical reactions to iodine containing compounds.  I'm not sure if that was the case with me, but I'm aware of allergic reactions to iodine in some people.  Being that it is in the microgram range it seems unlikely to me, but hey, all I know is that I felt very speedy as with most PEA's along with cold/hot, sweaty, achy, twitcy and overall feeling poisoned.  But that's how I reacted to it.  Everyone is different, obviously.



bluedolphin said:


> No drug should be meant to replace any other drug. LSD will never be replaced, it is nearly perfect. But it is not perfect, and no drug I've ever tried is. In my opinion Psilocin is slightly closer to what I would consider a perfect psychedelic, but still LSD is preferable in some ways (mostly being that it is more fun). To suggest that nobody has got real LSD since the year 2000 is laughable and a stereotypical "old hippie" comment based on nostalgic ignorance.
> 
> I haven't tried 25i-nbome but I probably will soon. I don't expect it to replace any other psychedelic or even resemble any other psychedelic. But I do expect it to be a relatively clean, nicely visual psychedelic with a positive mindspace... at least that is what I have heard.



Laughable, stereotypical "old hippie" nostalgic ignorance aye?  I'm not really that old of a hippie at 35 years of age but I'm probably older than most of the new generation of entheogen users on this forum.  If you want to debate me on the subject of LSD Mr. Dolphin, I'd be glad to unpack the many layers of knowledge and experience that I have on the subject.  All I ask is that you pay close attention to what I say before opening your mouth against me with your intense underestimation of my knowledge.  You don't know me or what I know well enough to make such an assumption.

Why would I say that true L is practically non-existent on the streets today?  First of all, there is the law, which implies that there is no source from a legitimate pharmaceutical chemical supplier except for strictly regulated research.  Precursor chemicals are HEAVILY watched.  Synthesis is highly advanced and delicate.  It requires much knowledge of organic chemistry, lab practice, and a full and expensive setup, more so than your average meth cook.  In light of these complications, it is much easier to slap some other potent hallucinogen on paper and sell it as LSD.  Then someone takes the blotter, never having had real LSD, and says "oh, shit, I tripped out man, that was cool".  How would that person know the difference?  Therefore, you simply get what you get from street sources.  If you believe that your street sources are reliable, that is YOUR choice.

So, how the hell do you know what you are consuming when you put a piece of paper on your tongue?  You don't.  The best you CAN do is piece together every physiological and subjective mental aspect of your experience: set, setting, onset time, duration, peak, exactly how it feels in the body, and the nature of your perceptual disturbances (visual and otherwise).  You can then take that data and compare it to the results of clinical experiments with known identification of the compound in question.  In the case of LSD that information comes from the 1950's and 60's.  If your experience is undoubtedly reflective of the clinical data, then you should research trip reports on various forums to see if anyone else had that type of experience with a street version of the drug that you had.

I've read thousands of posts and many of the books on the subject including Hofmann's Problem child.  That's how diligent I am before making statements such as the ones I make here.  An excerpt from Hofmann's book that defines my experience almost identically is this one:  "(0.150 mg LSD on 15 April 1961, 9:15 hours)  The environment of the room transforms itself into phosphorescent waves, running hither from the feet even through my body. The skin—and above all the toes—is as electrically charged; a still constantly growing excitement hinders all clear thoughts...."

When you feel these "waves" as quoted above from Hofmann's book running through your body, it makes you feel like you are about to lift off the ground as though gravity is working in reverse.  You start to truly believe that you can fly.  Electricity is the best analogy but it doesn't hurt you as if you're being shocked.  It's a wave-like vibration (very strong and distinct) that overtakes you and it creates a pleasure/euphoric sensation in the body that I've not found in any other drug ever.  I've done mescaline and a few other PEA's, mushrooms, DMT, salvia, 4-aco-dmt, a few other tryptamine RC's, DOx, cocaine, meth, MDMA, Methylone, many blotters sold as Lucy (that truly was not) and nothing else compares to genuine Lucy.  I've taken shit that was called family fluff, drops of "silver" out of a Visine bottle, a blotter labeled as "needlepoint" which actually was mailed from Switzerland and was supposedly cooked up in a Swiss lab, and many blotters with different artworks.  I've been sold el es dee many many times.  But in actuality after 15 years of research I KNOW (for myself - not you), that I, I, I only had the real thing ONCE out of 60+ attempts!

If you think you're getting it and aren't having the most pleasurable feeling (like 10 orgasms simultaneously) in your body, then I'm sorry to say that you're being lied to.  If you think I'm putting you on, then I have one question for you: since I don't sell LSD, what damned reason do I have to lie????

The simple fact is this: if someone intentionally or unintentionally has been selling you German chocolate cake mis-labeled as Boston cream pie, then you would obviously think that German chocolate cake tastes like Boston cream pie.  This would be the case for you 1000 times or more until some kind soul shows you the difference.  Unfortunately, my words cannot do that.

Again, I make no accusations that anyone here has not had the real thing.  Only that after more than 60 attempts with street acid, only once was it real for me.  And that was in the 90's prior to the last major distribution network being shut down.  If you believe you're getting the real thing nowadays, well, nice for you, but the intensity of my doubt is equally potent to your disbelief in what I have said.  Words against words amounts to shit as usual right?

Once LSD was experimented with by Leary, Huxley, Ginsberg, etc.  They all made the switch.  Were they promoting synthetic or natural psilocybin or mescaline after they used LSD?  Nope.  Did Huxley order his wife to administer to him mescaline on his death bed, even after having written the doors of perception?  Nope.  Huxley ordered LSD to ride out on that beautiful wave.  We all should know that he had the real thing.  He died with a big smile on his face, so said his wife.  Huxley was a brilliant literary and social paradigm genius, so I trust his judgment.  That said, I guarant-fucking-tee you I would absolutely NOT take street blotter on my death bed.

In conclusion, if anyone here tells me that LSD was/is the most amazing experience of their life - right alongside the birth of their child or some equally earth shattering amazing magical experience, and better than any other psychedelic drug ever tried, then I will agree that most likely it was the real thing.  Otherwise, kiddies, enjoy the "fractal land" funhouse shit that is available to you on the streets because unfortunately for now that is all you can get...

And if anyone else decides to come back at me claiming that I'm ignorant, you'd better be prepared with a wealth of knowledge on the subject, because if not, my ego will bitch slap your ego in the face.  Got it?  

Otherwise, I'd absolutely love it if once, just once somebody had the balls to step up and say "damn, maybe that dude's got a point and knows something I don't" - no expectations here...


----------



## IamMe90

Many of us here have had lab confirmed LSD - there are services in The Netherlands and elsewhere that will provide chemical analyses of street drugs free of charge. People think you're full of shit because of your big-headed accusation that none of us have had "real" LSD when many of us indeed have. 

LSD is not a miracle drug, it is a psychedelic like other psychedelics, and like other psychedelics some people will have miraculous reactions to it, others dismal, others average. If you were so knowledgeable about this subject, I would think you would know better than to fallaciously assume that we have not consumed real LSD because we favor some drugs over it. 

I have had real LSD, and in quite large doses (~600 mics). I like it, especially as an adjunct to other psychedelic drugs, but I find that there are better drugs out there, and 25i-nbome is one of them. It is in no way your business to tell me my preferences.


----------



## rogueone

IamMe90 said:


> Many of us here have had lab confirmed LSD - there are services in The Netherlands and elsewhere that will provide chemical analyses of street drugs free of charge. People think you're full of shit because of your big-headed accusation that none of us have had "real" LSD when many of us indeed have.
> 
> LSD is not a miracle drug, it is a psychedelic like other psychedelics, and like other psychedelics some people will have miraculous reactions to it, others dismal, others average. If you were so knowledgeable about this subject, I would think you would know better than to fallaciously assume that we have not consumed real LSD because we favor some drugs over it.
> 
> I have had real LSD, and in quite large doses (~600 mics). I like it, especially as an adjunct to other psychedelic drugs, but I find that there are better drugs out there, and 25i-nbome is one of them. It is in no way your business to tell me my preferences.


 
I knew that was coming next.  The lab in the Netherlands.  Yes yes, read about that.  Why don't you present to me your GC/MS analysis data on this forum?  And who the hell does that in here anyway?  Better question: how would anyone here know that your analysis data from the Netherlands was really yours?  It would be words against words again.  I cannot possibly directly convey experience to anyone.  As a species we are not that advanced obviously.  All I'm saying is that I've done street acid many many times, and only once do I believe it to have been genuine LSD.  If you (IamMe90) believe that you've had the real thing and in large doses, fine, kick ass awesome, and congratulations to you!!!

My experience and research (many years worth) tells me one thing sir.  That if you don't believe that true pure LSD is the number one superior (feeling in the body) psychedelic (not most visual necessarily), then I cannot possibly believe that you have had the real thing.  That is my opinion and I won't be convinced otherwise.  Call me naive.  Damn man, does any of the history of LSD mean anything to you?  I'm not suggesting that the hippie movement is completely dead but do you think it was started on anything besides LSD?  I ask that question because you seem to have no more preference over LSD vs. any other psychedelic.  How well did you read my post?  Have you had a body orgasmic situation of strong electric like vibrations that made you feel like you were being lifted up off the ground and could fly on your LSD?  Remember reports about people jumping through windows in the 60's because they thought they could fly?  You probably think that's all conspiracy bullshit right?  Government propaganda geared to make LSD look bad right?

I'm telling you that such sensations are very real and true on LSD.  Here are some links for you to read if you have time: http://www.lsdexperience.com/PDF/vibration.pdf
His whole book is here: http://www.lsdexperience.com

If you don't think that real LSD is powerfully mind/life transformative, then argue with this guy, Leary, and everyone else who, back in the day, took the real thing and claimed that it is.


----------



## TerrapinStation

rogueone said:


> ...if anyone else decides to come back at me claiming that I'm ignorant...



Being knowledgeable and well read doesn't equate to having made a good analysis of the data.  Your tone is that of a fervent fundamentalist preacher, and I understand that you will defend your view despite compelling argument to the contrary.

I can admire your the earnest nature of your argument, but still disagree with your conclusions.  This one mystical experience that you point to was not contained within the blotter.  Do you honestly believe that everyone who takes pure LSD-25 has a euphoric or mystical experience?

It seems that your view is a mix of both scientific objectivism and experiential subjectivism, that has somehow muddled the truths that might have been revealed by either.


----------



## SONN

rogueone said:


> But in actuality after 15 years of research I KNOW (for myself - not you), that I, I, I only had the real thing ONCE out of 60+ attempts!
> 
> If you think you're getting it and aren't having the most pleasurable feeling (like 10 orgasms simultaneously) in your body, then I'm sorry to say that you're being lied to.



That's a pretty extreme number, 1/60 tries to get LSD on the street will be successful? Also to claim that anyone who takes LSD is going to experience this 'most pleasurable feeling' is a bit of a ridiculous statement considering the wide variety of reactions people can have to ANY psychedelic.


----------



## IamMe90

rogueone said:


> I knew that was coming next.  The lab in the Netherlands.  Yes yes, read about that.  Why don't you present to me your GC/MS analysis data on this forum?  And who the hell does that in here anyway?  Better question: how would anyone here know that your analysis data from the Netherlands was really yours?  It would be words against words again.  I cannot possibly directly convey experience to anyone.  As a species we are not that advanced obviously.  All I'm saying is that I've done street acid many many times, and only once do I believe it to have been genuine LSD.  If you (IamMe90) believe that you've had the real thing and in large doses, fine, kick ass awesome, and congratulations to you!!!
> 
> My experience and research (many years worth) tells me one thing sir.  That if you don't believe that true pure LSD is the number one superior (feeling in the body) psychedelic (not most visual necessarily), then I cannot possibly believe that you have had the real thing.  That is my opinion and I won't be convinced otherwise.  Call me naive.  Damn man, does any of the history of LSD mean anything to you?  I'm not suggesting that the hippie movement is completely dead but do you think it was started on anything besides LSD?  I ask that question because you seem to have no more preference over LSD vs. any other psychedelic.  How well did you read my post?  Have you had a body orgasmic situation of strong electric like vibrations that made you feel like you were being lifted up off the ground and could fly on your LSD?  Remember reports about people jumping through windows in the 60's because they thought they could fly?  You probably think that's all conspiracy bullshit right?  Government propaganda geared to make LSD look bad right?
> 
> I'm telling you that such sensations are very real and true on LSD.  Here are some links for you to read if you have time: http://www.lsdexperience.com/PDF/vibration.pdf
> His whole book is here: http://www.lsdexperience.com
> 
> If you don't think that real LSD is powerfully mind/life transformative, then argue with this guy, Leary, and everyone else who, back in the day, took the real thing and claimed that it is.



You are not only an enormous douchebag but an idiot, as well. Realize what the fuck you're saying, holy SHIT. 



> That if you don't believe that true pure LSD is the number one superior (feeling in the body) psychedelic (not most visual necessarily), then I cannot possibly believe that you have had the real thing.



If you truly believe this, you understand _nothing_ about the psychedelic experience. You're a deluded egocentric idiot. It is a basic fact that _anyone_ can react differently to _any_ drug due to a plethora of complicated factors. Guess what, my parents were alive during the 60s, and they took real LSD! One of them didn't enjoy it? So they didn't take real LSD? I'm supposed to believe you over people alive during the 60s? Do you think everyone has the same mentality and cellular build as you? 

You're spouting bullshit of the highest caliber. Your years worth of research mean nothing if your rational faculties are so riddled with inherent contradictions and logical fallacies that you reach the most idiotic conclusions I've seen in a long time. Go away, you're not going to get any support for your convoluted arguments on this board.


----------



## rogueone

TerrapinStation said:


> Being knowledgeable and well read doesn't equate to having made a good analysis of the data.  Your tone is that of a fervent fundamentalist preacher, and I understand that you will defend your view despite compelling argument to the contrary.
> 
> I can admire your the earnest nature of your argument, but still disagree with your conclusions.  This one mystical experience that you point to was not contained within the blotter.  Do you honestly believe that everyone who takes pure LSD-25 has a euphoric or mystical experience?
> 
> It seems that your view is a mix of both scientific objectivism and experiential subjectivism, that has somehow muddled the truths that might have been revealed by either.



This is well stated.  Very well stated.  My fervency is the result of 15 years of experience and research weighing variable after variable.  The truth would ever so easily have escaped me however, if, all I had was the research.  I could very easily say that LSD is a subjective experience based on set and setting and not an issue of chemical identification or purity, if the research was all I had.  The main thing here okay, is this: the physiological differences between what I consider to be even the cleanest street acid and what I believe is pure LSD were EXTREME for me.  My set and setting was no more special than any other time.  Same old friends, same old places.  No special diet or fasting.  Just the same old kind of night for me as any other trip night.  The quality of the chemical made the difference.  One could say that physiologically I had a fluke of a reaction to LSD that night.  What I can't deny is the fact that my other two companions on that trip experienced the same physiological effects as me (I don't believe by suggestion).  The paper tab was incredibly small and thin and it made our tongues buzz.  None of us, before or since have had any street acid that has produced these effects.  I kept saying over and over that I was God and that we are flying and they kept saying similar things without speaking.  We confirmed a telepathic experience later that night.  The onset was 30 to 45 minutes.  The duration was 4 to 5 hours, not like 8 to 12 as some research suggests.  Hofmann's first accidental trip, which was obviously above threshold only lasted about 2 to 4 hours.  This taste bud buzzing effect cannot be confirmed by clinical data from the 50's/60's simply because they didn't use blotter paper for administration.  They used either sugar cubes or a glass of water.

About your question as to whether I believe that everyone who has taken pure LSD-25 had a mystical euphoric experience.  Well in light of my own research, no.  Even in the early research there were some negative reactions.  But, I suggest that most (not all) of the negative reactions were due to the psychedelic instead of psycholitic approach.  In other words high dose vs. moderate dose.  Hofmann himself flipped out on his second and intentional trip at 250 mics.  Which is why I believe that I had a moderate dose of pure LSD in the 75 to 100 mic range and simply felt marvelous.  Nothing, I know this now, I mean nothing that could have occurred that night except some truly life threatening situation could have caused me to have had a bad trip because I just felt fantastic.  If my dose would have been much higher, yes, I think could have had a scary experience and perhaps thought differently about the whole subject.

That experience revealed to me the true nature, purpose, and potential of LSD and what it can do for humanity.  I was changed for MONTHS.  Not days, not a couple of weeks, I felt like a new man, walking on air for months with crystal clarity of vision, thoughts, and a happiness that I've not felt since my next street acid trip which put me back into a fog six months later.  Shit man, everybody is skeptical, especially people that are generally skeptical of an ego rant to begin with right? lol...


----------



## bluedolphin

rogueone...

While you clearly demonstrate what I can only assume and appears to be an accurate knowledge of LSD synthesis, it's historical origins, and a true admiration for the chemical...

... what amazes me the most is that out of 60 attempts over many years you believe you have only had LSD-25 one time?

I can tell you that I've "attempted" LSD several hundreds of times and out of these attempts roughly 75% were LSD-25, another 20% were blank paper or too weak to really tell, and another 5% were what I suspect to be related ergolines.

I have also "attempted" DOC about a dozen times, of which all of them were successful. "Attempted" DOI only once. "Attempted" DOM yet another couple of times.

LSD and any DOx chemical are so vastly different that if you had one or the other, there should be no doubt or confusion regarding what you have taken. And if you have really been sold DOx fifty-nine out of sixty times you tried to take LSD, then LOL dude, you might just take the award for #1 custie on the planet.

There are so many people on this forum that have taken real LSD-25, and seen grams of crystal, and have in depth and real-life knowledge of the workings of the scene that I am really wondering what you are trying to prove. It's kind of like if I came on here and said Cubensis Mushrooms are the ultimate and only legit psychedelic experience, and guess what, I happened to eat the only Psilocybin-containing mushroom on one occasion 10 years ago, and I can assure you there are no further specimens in existence.


----------



## LogicSoDeveloped

Does anyone have a guide to making a solution of 25i-NBOMe? 

I have 250mg of the freebase btw.


----------



## rogueone

IamMe90 said:


> You are not only an enormous douchebag but an idiot, as well. Realize what the fuck you're saying, holy SHIT.
> 
> If you truly believe this, you understand _nothing_ about the psychedelic experience. You're a deluded egocentric idiot. It is a basic fact that _anyone_ can react differently to _any_ drug due to a plethora of complicated factors. Guess what, my parents were alive during the 60s, and they took real LSD! One of them didn't enjoy it? So they didn't take real LSD? I'm supposed to believe you over people alive during the 60s? Do you think everyone has the same mentality and cellular build as you?
> 
> You're spouting bullshit of the highest caliber. Your years worth of research mean nothing if your rational faculties are so riddled with inherent contradictions and logical fallacies that you reach the most idiotic conclusions I've seen in a long time. Go away, you're not going to get any support for your convoluted arguments on this board.





> It is a basic fact that _anyone_ can react differently to _any_ drug due to a plethora of complicated factors.[END QUOTE]
> 
> No shit Sherlock Holmes.  Didn’t suggest that I’m unaware of this fact anywhere in my posts.  If you distilled such an interpretation from my suggestions then I must say you didn’t read carefully enough.  I don’t deem your quote unintelligible or stupid, just an unnecessary and incorrect implication.  I WOULD be an idiot if I thought that everyone reacted the same way to any substance.  I do however, believe that there is a consistency in some general and even some specific physiological and psychological effects produced by various psychoactive compounds.  Can you understand the previous sentence or do I need to break it down for you further?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think everyone has the same mentality and cellular build as you?[END QUOTE]
> Uh, I don’t know George, which way did he go, huh?  Yeah man, I’m so dense that I think that.  Shit… I guess I’m black, white, Chinese, Indian, Mayan, cause yeah man, ya kno, deep inside we’re all like the same right?  Of course, I’m being sarcastic.  You should ask more well formulated questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your years worth of research mean nothing if your rational faculties are so riddled with inherent contradictions and logical fallacies that you reach the most idiotic conclusions I've seen in a long time. [END QUOTE]
> 
> A nicely done statement.  But it seems quite presumptuous and vague.  What the hell are referring to specifically???  What you stated above?  Because those statements and questions were very trifling and indicative that you are just pissed off and unaware of exactly what kind of person you’re dealing with.
> 
> Now, how can you say that I have no understanding of the psychedelic experience?  After tons of trips and research, I know nothing?  Hmm…  I didn’t accuse you or anyone here of that did I?  No.  I only said that LSD was/is (for me) a superior experience to every other psychedelic compound that I’ve tried to date including countless unidentified blotters.  And I believe (no matter how much it steps on egos) that once one has experienced real LSD in pure form, they won’t think the same way about LSD again.  Didn’t say I’m right did I?  This is just what I believe, you don’t have to.
> 
> I “believe” wholeheartedly (not “know”) that I’ve had pure LSD once and that it’s extremely rare, unlike what most people think.  And because of that you think I’m just full of myself, an egocentric bastard that knows nothing of the subject.  I’m so smug right now, chuckling
> 
> Your confidence may be high in your parents.  I can’t say the same for a simple reason.  Firstly, I don’t know them.  Secondly, underground acid came out not long at all after Sandoz Delysid hit the streets.  I believe that Owsley came out with some pure stuff with his white lightening, Monterey purple, and sunshine.  It wasn't long however that Sandoz refused to supply Delysid and LSD precursors became watched and so on and so forth.  STP (DOM) was an easy alternative to put on paper and many acid dealers started cranking that out instead, which is a hallucinogenic substituted amphetamine.
> 
> But, I don't necessarily suggest that your parents took anything in the 60's other than real LSD.  Probably if there was a bad reaction, it was due to the fact that, at least in the case of Owsley's acid (who I've personally spoken with via email before his death), he thought 250 mics was the appropriate dose based on Hofmann's second trip.  He admitted later that it was probably too much.  So, yeah, if someone is in a less than ideal set and setting, I would agree totally that a high dose of LSD might scare the shit out of someone.  It certainly did Hofmann.  I wouldn't say that it would be impossible to have a bad reaction to a moderate dose either, but unlikely in most circumstances.
> 
> Labeling me a deluded douchebag idiot (chuckling to myself) sounds forthcoming for an emotionally 2-year old ego throwing a temper tantrum.  I didn't call you such a thing did I?  We both can apparently weave a nice confabulated tapestry of impressive vocabulary.  Yet obviously, our maturity levels differ somewhat?
> 
> Truth is, regardless of opinions, you are no more RIGHT than I and you have failed to see the merit to what I've said.  Due to your immature flaming I’ll just write you off as a twitching sputtering orb of geometric transmogrification such as those I’ve seen in hyperspace trying to convey the whole meaning of life to me in a few seconds.  Just, not… getting through…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## IamMe90

Well, you wouldn't have had such a negative response if you hadn't tried to demean and trivialize the experience of everyone in this thread that adores this chemical. I have experienced real LSD however, in various doses, including the 150 range (I don't have GC/MS on hand, it was supplied to me by someone with GC/MS from said testing company) and I think am entitled to my own preferences. You made a very bad first impression coming in here and telling everyone that they were _wrong_ for like 25i or anything else better than LSD. Even if LSD produces the wonderful effects you speak of objectively, you also have to understand that someone's subjective preference for a variety of effects differ. I love 2c-e, and the effects are anything but "wonderful" - but I don't always prefer wonderful experiences. There are so many reasons why LSD could potentially not be someone's favorite psychedelic drug. It just feels insulting for someone to come in here and castigate all of us for enjoying our own drugs. If you feel LSD is the best psychedelic drug out there, fantastic. But don't boil down a lack of consensus on the matter to the fact that we haven't taken LSD, or in the right setting, or in the right dose, etc - generally we aren't inexperienced dolts who haven't taken measures to see that these factors have been satisfied. Some people just like different drugs. I don't understand the appeal of crack cocaine but certainly people love it. Have I never taken real crack cocaine? Just apply your line of reasoning to quite a few analogous scenarios such as that and I doubt you'll be as fervent about them.

By the way, you might want to go to the "LSD has its flaws?" thread and tell them about how they are all wrong because they've never had real LSD.


----------



## rogueone

bluedolphin said:


> rogueone...
> 
> While you clearly demonstrate what I can only assume and appears to be an accurate knowledge of LSD synthesis, it's historical origins, and a true admiration for the chemical...
> 
> ... what amazes me the most is that out of 60 attempts over many years you believe you have only had LSD-25 one time?
> 
> I can tell you that I've "attempted" LSD several hundreds of times and out of these attempts roughly 75% were LSD-25, another 20% were blank paper or too weak to really tell, and another 5% were what I suspect to be related ergolines.
> 
> I have also "attempted" DOC about a dozen times, of which all of them were successful. "Attempted" DOI only once. "Attempted" DOM yet another couple of times.
> 
> LSD and any DOx chemical are so vastly different that if you had one or the other, there should be no doubt or confusion regarding what you have taken. And if you have really been sold DOx fifty-nine out of sixty times you tried to take LSD, then LOL dude, you might just take the award for #1 custie on the planet.
> 
> There are so many people on this forum that have taken real LSD-25, and seen grams of crystal, and have in depth and real-life knowledge of the workings of the scene that I am really wondering what you are trying to prove. It's kind of like if I came on here and said Cubensis Mushrooms are the ultimate and only legit psychedelic experience, and guess what, I happened to eat the only Psilocybin-containing mushroom on one occasion 10 years ago, and I can assure you there are no further specimens in existence.



LOL, great point!  I know what you're saying man.  I agree with you, really.  LOL, I probably am the only guy who would say such a thing and I may be a great candidate for the most unfortunate acid customer in the world!  And maybe some folks in here including yourself have had the real deal many times.  I have suspected the same thing about the other ergolines as well back in the 90's before the RC boom.  Actually, I remember one trip where my entire visual field maintained a continuous pulse.  Okay, I could visually see the blood pumping through my veins all over the place with open eyes.  Networks of veins pumping with every heartbeat on the walls and floors.  Physiologically that trip felt extremely vasoconstrictive in nature which led me to think that someone had attempted to make LSD, perhaps with seeds instead of ergotamine tartrate, I don't know, and basically screwed up the procedure, or just ended up with, like you said, other ergolines contaminating the batch.  Dead Diver over at mycotopia said this and I'm quoting from that thread:

"The majority of good acid I have eaten had a slightly bitter taste that is hard to describe and if I set the blotter on taste buds on the tip of my tongue I would feel something similar to the tingle from a week 9V battery. If the blotter was strong I would also get a shiver down my spine at the same time I got the battery tingle. I have also found that not all good acid has a taste to it. I have had blotter that was tasteless and I thought it was bunk until it kicked in and I have had windowpane that had no tast and was extremely good and strong. But overall 99.9% of the good acid I have eaten has had some kind of salty/bitter/metalic/9V battery/spine shivering taste to it. But that's me, I have a friend that I have tripped with many times over the years with that has never been able to tast anything. He would often request my taste testing abilities back in the day when he was trying to score quantities. I would guess that about half of the people can taste it and about half can't. "

99.9% of the time, so this guy says, that the "good" acid that he did produced a battery like tingle on his tongue.  Not everyone can taste it he says.  Well, apparently I can taste it.  And I only felt that battery tingle once with one tiny blotter back in 97.  That was the ONLY trip that ever lived up to the infamous mystical, amazing, status that I'd heard about from the good acid of the 60's.  It turned my opinion about LSD completely upside down.  I could see how it could get alcoholics off booze and help a ton of other conditions of the mind.

Don't get me wrong though.  I've had some amazing trips on mushrooms and mescaline.  I've been left in a more spiritual frame of mind, somewhat, after most trips.  But none of it compares to how that one trip left me feeling mentally cleansed and uplifted for months afterward.  My other two companions on that trip said the same thing happened for them as well.  Shit, I don't know, maybe it was just extremely pure LSD and most other trips were not DOx but just impure batches of LSD.  I mean, thus far, street knowledge alone has not proven or dis-proven the purity debate that Bruce Eisner started in the 70's with High Times.  I actually own that issue, lol.  

All this stuff is subject to endless speculation of course.  I just can't deny my own experience and wanted to share.  And also to say that most of the RC's i've tried, while I do trip, get intense visuals, and become introspective as all hell - it is an experience that is very hard on the body and physically feels like shit to me.  Mushroom tea seems to have the least adverse physical effects for me.  The good acid I had, had zero adverse physical affects and was quite the opposite making me feel - well I've already explained it in my other posts above...

I can't help believing what I believe and feeling how I feel about the subject based on my experience.  So, did you ever have an acid experience like what I described in my other posts, I mean on par with that level of feel-goodness?


----------



## rogueone

IamMe90 said:


> Well, you wouldn't have had such a negative response if you hadn't tried to demean and trivialize the experience of everyone in this thread that adores this chemical. I have experienced real LSD however, in various doses, including the 150 range (I don't have GC/MS on hand, it was supplied to me by someone with GC/MS from said testing company) and I think am entitled to my own preferences. You made a very bad first impression coming in here and telling everyone that they were _wrong_ for like 25i or anything else better than LSD. Even if LSD produces the wonderful effects you speak of objectively, you also have to understand that someone's subjective preference for a variety of effects differ. I love 2c-e, and the effects are anything but "wonderful" - but I don't always prefer wonderful experiences. There are so many reasons why LSD could potentially not be someone's favorite psychedelic drug. It just feels insulting for someone to come in here and castigate all of us for enjoying our own drugs. If you feel LSD is the best psychedelic drug out there, fantastic. But don't boil down a lack of consensus on the matter to the fact that we haven't taken LSD, or in the right setting, or in the right dose, etc - generally we aren't inexperienced dolts who haven't taken measures to see that these factors have been satisfied. Some people just like different drugs. I don't understand the appeal of crack cocaine but certainly people love it. Have I never taken real crack cocaine? Just apply your line of reasoning to quite a few analogous scenarios such as that and I doubt you'll be as fervent about them.
> 
> By the way, you might want to go to the "LSD has its flaws?" thread and tell them about how they are all wrong because they've never had real LSD.



I'll check out that thread.  I get what you're saying and thanks for piping down on the hardcore insults.  It's not easy, necessarily for me to express such a bold idea to this crowd.  Well writing it is easy I suppose.  Knowing what kind of responses that I will get in return is not so much though.  It's a feeling I guess like Potter felt in "The Order Of The Phoenix" when nobody believed him that the dark lord had returned.  In his experience, he had seen the dark lord and watched him kill Cedric.  No one else at the school or the ministry of magic had witnessed that event and Potter was on his own to convince everyone.  Lol, I'm a nerd. LSD is infinitely more debatable, complex, and I'm going up against way more opinions.  As I said, if I could only directly convey experience, you could experience what I did first hand.  But words, oh such lame ass words, no matter how eloquently ordered, are all I have.

I do understand why most disagree with me on this matter.  I would be in exactly the same position of disagreement too.  If you personally prefer the heavy hardcore trip with ego obliteration and such, more power to you.  I used to be into that, but not so much anymore, feels like I'm gonna shit out my kidneys lol...


----------



## Rigged Death Trap

A self proclaimed old hippie who relates to Harry Potter then calls himself a nerd.
I've heard weirder, and better, instigators. Anyone who has ever tried any drug and called it life changing will not care so much about the substance, but the experience. It's always been about the experience.

Small question though. What are the ROAs for the NBOMEs, And what are the best? I also need a fairly simple explanation of liquid insufflation, not so much the prep, but the actual administration.


----------



## MattPsy

How about you read the thread?
tl;dr: put solution of known conc in syringe, squirt up nose.


----------



## Transform

LogicSoDeveloped said:


> Does anyone have a guide to making a solution of 25i-NBOMe?
> 
> I have 250mg of the freebase btw.



Place in solvent. Shake.

Ok seriously though, this is an _incredibly_ easy procedure.

You may wish to convert to a salt first, I suppose you'll need the simplest method possible, so I would suggest as follows.

Use a 10ml syringe to measure out 250mls of clear white vinegar. 
Add your 25I to the vinegar.
Shake until dissolved. 
Use a 1ml syringe to measure out your doses. 1ml = 1mg


----------



## greenmeanies

a whole 250ml of white vinegar is probably unnecessary, and will lead to excess of acetic acid in the final solution (and associated smells). I would do the stoichiometric math for you, but I'm feeling lazy. Correct way to do it is find the molar mass of your drug freebase, divide to find the number of moles of drug you have, make it equimolar with your acid, and multiply by the density/concentration to discover how much solution you must add to fully protonate your freebase.


----------



## Transform

greenmeanies said:


> a whole 250ml of white vinegar is probably unnecessary, and will lead to excess of acetic acid in the final solution (and associated smells). I would do the stoichiometric math for you, but I'm feeling lazy. Correct way to do it is find the molar mass of your drug freebase, divide to find the number of moles of drug you have, make it equimolar with your acid, and multiply by the density/concentration to discover how much solution you must add to fully protonate your freebase.



You think someone who wouldn't search to find how to make a solution is going to be able to manage this?

for 250mg of 25I you need 0.035g of acetic acid, which is about 1ml of table vinegar.

Of course, using 250mls of vinegar does have the advantage of reducing the risk of accidental ingestion.


----------



## greenmeanies

true about accidental ingestion, but when the administration is going to be intranasal or buccal i would worry about the palatability.

Perhaps a good method would be to use a crystalline fruit acid (like citric or malic or ascorbic) that will not add undue odor to the solution.

You can always label the vial "SUPER RAT POISON 1mg/ml" and put a drop of red food coloring in it for safety.


----------



## Pastel

I've read that frequent use of 25I-NBOMe causes rapid tolerance development. Shulgin mentioned that MDxx substances should be enjoyed no more than four times a year, while 5-MEO-MIPT apparently could be used every 5 days without the need to up the dosage. How frequently can 25I-NBOMe be used to avoid down-regulation? What about other NBOMEs? Is there a cross-tolerance between different NBOMes (I/C/D)? Is there a cross-tolerance with other PEAs such as 5/6-APB? Is there cross-tolerance with tryptamines? Has anyone noticed growing more spaced-out/less centered with subsequent use? Has anyone experienced powerful negative life-changing thoughts/realizations during a trip? Thank you.


----------



## Erny

Read this thread first, please. It's long, but it's all there. All what you're asking about.

You may also want to read The Main NBOMe Comparisons amp General Discussion Thread


----------



## Pastel

When I got to page 10 I decided to pop up this question.  But given how new these RCs are, it is reassuring to know that that all these questions have been already answered.


----------



## Cyanoide

Still untried, although I've had it for a few months. Longer trips just require at least a few days of rest for me and my job unfortunately doesn't give me that opportunity (apart from annual leave of course, but that's not until summer).

Anyway, how does 25I compare to 25C regarding bodyload and physical stimulation?


----------



## Transform

Pastel said:


> I've read that frequent use of 25I-NBOMe causes rapid tolerance development. Shulgin mentioned that MDxx substances should be enjoyed no more than four times a year, while 5-MEO-MIPT apparently could be used every 5 days without the need to up the dosage. How frequently can 25I-NBOMe be used to avoid down-regulation? What about other NBOMEs? Is there a cross-tolerance between different NBOMes (I/C/D)? Is there a cross-tolerance with other PEAs such as 5/6-APB? Is there cross-tolerance with tryptamines? Has anyone noticed growing more spaced-out/less centered with subsequent use? Has anyone experienced powerful negative life-changing thoughts/realizations during a trip? Thank you.



Let's try to gather some of these answers in one place: 

NBOMes develop a very strong tolerance, the strongest I've ever seen. They require two weeks for you to be able to feel it at the same intensity, and 1-2 months are needed for full psychological reload. (thanks Erny)


Downregulation is basically tolerance, I presume you are thinking about the other neurotoxic effects of MDMA?
25I and other psychedelics produce minimal damage like MDMA because they are not serotonin releasing agents, they do not leave much deficit to be filled with dopamine for oxidative damage to occur. Again, once or twice a month as a maximum and you'll be fine.

Yes, there will definitely be cross tolerance between NBOMes, and to a lesser extent with those which have different mechanisms. Largely, where the effects cross over, there will be tolerance built to these effects.


----------



## Erny

Cyanoide said:


> Anyway, how does 25I compare to 25C regarding bodyload and physical stimulation?


You may want to read the link from my post above.



Transform said:


> I imagine the NBOMes are similar to the other PEAs: They build tolerance reasonably slowly, but it stays for a while. Keep it to once or twice a month.


That's an incorrect answer. NBOMes develop a very strong tolerance, the strongest I've ever seen. They require two weeks for you to be able to feel it at the same intensity, and 1-2 months are needed for full psychological reload.



Pastel said:


> When I got to page 10 I decided to pop up this question.  But given how new these RCs are, it is reassuring to know that that all these questions have been already answered.


 They are mostly at the pages 11-20


----------



## IamMe90

I was able to dose 25i two days after a previous 25i trip and while the required dose was larger (but not terribly larger) I was able to achieve full peak effects easily.


----------



## Transform

Has anyone tried these plugged? It seems like such an obvious ROA what with the challenges of insufflating solutions and getting everything dissolved sublingually.


----------



## SONN

Last night my little bro vaped my new sample of 25i HCl and said the onset took longer than when freebase was vaped. It's not instantaneous like the freebase is and it takes like almost 30 minutes.


----------



## IamMe90

Transform said:


> Has anyone tried these plugged? It seems like such an obvious ROA what with the challenges of insufflating solutions and getting everything dissolved sublingually.



My boyfriend plugged 25i first time we did it and it was very intense for him.


----------



## Erny

IamMe90 said:


> I was able to dose 25i two days after a previous 25i trip and while the required dose was larger (but not terribly larger) I was able to achieve full peak effects easily.


That's weird, but I don't have any reasons not to believe you. It might be due to a long break with drugs, or psychedelics in particular, you might have had. Such "psychedelic chastity" often allows one to do tricks like the one you've described.


----------



## Pastel

Transform, Erny, 
       Thank you for answering my questions. To look at this from the positive perspective this means that NBOMes have a built-in anti-abuse profile - less of a chance they will be regulated. 

IamMe90,
If you don't mind answering, what was the were the initial and sequential doses?


----------



## saposcat

I'm sorry if this has been obliquely covered elsewhere in the thread, but I'm in the process of complexing some 25i-nbome and need to know whether it's necessary to convert the 25i from the freebase to the salt before adding it to the solution containing the cyclodextrin, or whether the freebase should complex just as readily?


----------



## IamMe90

HCl does not need to be complexed, only the freebase needs to be complexed, so either convert it or complex it. 

My first dose was 2mg nasally, my second dose was 2.5mg nasally. This brought me to a peak strength of about 1.5mg buccal. The initial 2mg 25i experience was much stronger than desired.


----------



## bluedolphin

So let me get this straight.

If I have 1 gram of 25i-nbome freebase, and I want to convert it to HCl, all I have to do is put it in a dish, add some quantity greater than 4ml of white vinegar, make sure it mixes thoroughly , and then let that evaporate?


----------



## MattPsy

^ Er, no, because the HCl is the hydrochloride, and vinegar is not hydrochloric acid. Doing that will make the acetate (vinegar = 5% w/w acetic acid, roughly).


----------



## bluedolphin

Okay thanks, I had read that somewhere else and was surprised if it was true.

Is 25I-nbome acetate more readily absorbable, or is there any reason at all to convert freebase to acetate?


----------



## Transform

Salts are more soluble in water (saliva), and therefore more readily absorbed sublingually.


----------



## RobotRipping

i really think the claims about tolerance are a bit over the top. You can dose 25i successfully two nights in a row but after that tolerance does become a major issue where you just won't trip. This lasts for about a week. After that I am fine to trip again, I've been using 25i 4x monthly without tolerance issues, sometimes redosing to trip for 2 days. Yes that still makes it a bastard for tolerance but not quite as bad as mentioned, of course these are just my observations.


----------



## quidlicker

so i got 50mg to 100 drops of polish 88% vodka and it had no problem dissolving, my friend added 500ug to a sugar cube and he said no visuals but giggly feeling, i take it taking it as a drop would have better result?


----------



## Survived Abortion

^Maybe the sugar delayed absorption? And you have 88% vodka in poland  ?


----------



## SONN

it seems the sublingual method is really iffy. I think that you really need to wash you're mouth out and put it on the upper part of your gum directly either in blotter or I guess liquid form. most things i've read about under the tongue were hit or miss.

I gave a friend of mine a small dose of 25i on a piece of gum which he then stuck on the bottom of his gums like he was packing a lip and held it there for 30 mins but reported no effects. It was HCl and it was just the pure powder, they didn't wash their mouth out or anything either so that might have been a factor as well.


----------



## shishigami

How well would non complexed blotter on the upper lip work? I'm curious because I have some of the HCl salt but no HPBCD right now.


----------



## RobotRipping

i find sublingual with liquid dosing to be quite effective. As soon as it hits my mouth it makes me salivate for some reason and it goes all over the place but it still works for me, even if i swallow a couple minutes later.


----------



## Erny

Survived Abortion said:


> And you have 88% vodka in poland  ?


I think this was about "pure alcohol", though usually it is 96% rectificate. Concentrations over 40% may hurt your mucous and stomach if consumed as alcohol.


----------



## SONN

RobotRipping said:


> i find sublingual with liquid dosing to be quite effective. As soon as it hits my mouth it makes me salivate for some reason and it goes all over the place but it still works for me, even if i swallow a couple minutes later.



what dosage are you putting in your mouth? and do you think it's nearly as effective as snorting it or vaping it or plugging it or whatever ROA you can possibly think of. I wonder if you can put this chem in your eyes? ears? lol I'd like to know. unfortunately there's really no research like that happening.


----------



## Transform

Most likely the sugar caused excessive saliva production which lead to dilution and swallowing.

I'll highlight this as it appears to have been repeatedly overlooked.



*You do not need to use anything to complex your 25I if you have a salt.*

The idea of complexing is to make the freebase soluble enough to be absorbed sublingually. The salts are already soluble enough.


----------



## SONN

I'm preparing some blotters right now. I mixed the 25i salt with alcohol and dropped it onto watercolor paper, how effective will this be for dosing sublingually?


----------



## psychonauss

SONN said:


> I'm preparing some blotters right now. I mixed the 25i salt with alcohol and dropped it onto watercolor paper, how effective will this be for dosing sublingually?


 What kind of paper did you use? I tried a test with a regular watercolor paper but an 1 in square piece could hold more than 1mL, I think I got the wrong paper...


----------



## SONN

idk I just got some cheap "watercolor paper" from micheals. I have yet to test the efficiency of it but I shall be getting back to you in one or two days.


----------



## RobotRipping

SONN said:


> what dosage are you putting in your mouth? and do you think it's nearly as effective as snorting it or vaping it or plugging it or whatever ROA you can possibly think of. I wonder if you can put this chem in your eyes? ears? lol I'd like to know. unfortunately there's really no research like that happening.



i dose 1-2mg but i like to trip pretty hard and more often than not I do but i haven't tried snorting the liquid and i'm doubting i can squirt 1ml of liquid 25i up my butt without losing some in the process lol. i've tried 500mcg but it just wasn't enough for me but i could still feel it.

i think putting it in your eye may work but it'd probably burn, I'd experiment with other ROA but sublingual/buccal works effectively enough for my purposes.


----------



## SONN

I just want to be getting the most out of each hit, It seems like if this stuff is dosed effectively as possible 500 ug could give a solid +++


----------



## Ralt

35mg MXE and 300mcg 25I was breathtaking. I dosed low just to test the waters, but was incredibly surprised. I cannot wait to take 25I on it's own higher. I IM'd, duration was about three hours, then I felt tired and the visuals were lacking, and just went to bed, could have tripped longer but work in the morning. I'll write a TR soon.


----------



## psychonauss

Where should I put a 25I solution/powder to keep it safe, is a dark, not too hot, not too cold place enough?


----------



## Transform

psychonauss said:


> Where should I put a 25I solution/powder to keep it safe, is a dark, not too hot, not too cold place enough?



In a sealed bag, that sounds perfect.


----------



## adder

Concerning absorbing from blotting paper, it's been a while since I used a few 4-substituted derivatives of N-(2-methoxy)benzyl-2,5-dimethoxyPEAs as it was last October. But I remember quite well that a low dose of 25I-NBOMe worked very well this way. I always use a toothbrush before applying any blotter to get rid of dead epidermis. And I agree with the opinion above that it doesn't have to be anything complex on a blotting paper for 25I-NBOMe to work (with this one I had 0.5mg pieces of HCl salt and it was very visual).

I don't have any experience with other ROAs for comparison and I don't plan on doing any 25x-NBOMe anytime soon. Besides the only method I can think of is snorting and snorting 0.5mg is very impractical so making a nasal spray would be the way to go because I'd imagine the amount of something that I'd have to add for snorting purposes would both slow down and diminish absorption. Injecting 2,5-dimethoxyPEAs intravenously is a bit harsh. I wonder how it feels with 25x-NBOy compounds (where x is any halo or alkyl group and y is -OMe or -OH).


----------



## IamMe90

If you have access to micropipettes (accurate ones) or insulin syringes it's quite easy to practically dose nbomes nasally. I dissolved my 75mg 25i-nbome in 5mL of 40% vodka to make a 15mg/mL solution and using an insulsin syringe only had to dose .06mL of vodka into my nose with an insulin syringe that had the tip cut off. This amount of liquid is _absolutely miniscule_ and did not burn even remotely as much as insufflating a 2c-x chemical and none of the solution was lost in my nose. 

If you'd like to use water (which I'm not sure you can super concentrate as such) or do not have access to such measuring tools, however, then nasal may not be practical, but rectal should be a completely practical ROA.


----------



## rdbomb

My wife and I both find sublingual to be the best ROA. At first we tried 650ug, it was nice but it wasnt strong enough and didn't last as long as we would have liked. We have settled on 1.3mg to 1.6mg as the perfect dose. We were also really surprised to discover that redosing was really effective. We were able to effectively redose 650ug every 3 hours. It brought the effects back to full strength all 3 times over the course of the night. (we initially took 1.3mg each).by this method, we had effects from thirty minutes after placing it on the gums at 3:30 until about 7:30 when the effects wore off. We each took another 650ugs at about 8:00 with nearly full effects returning by 8:30. This time we did not wait for the effects to disappear completely and redosed at about 10:00. Effects were almost completely gone by 2:00. Three doses (1.3mg, 650ug, 650ug) lasted ten hours. Overall very impressive product, and our new official favorite! No negative feelings, deep ab-aching laughter, and incomprehensible beauty and awe. It's fantastic stuff.


----------



## Transform

IamMe90 said:


> My boyfriend plugged 25i first time we did it and it was very intense for him.



How much did he plug?


----------



## reformer

*What ROAs did you compare?*



rdbomb said:


> My wife and I both find sublingual to be the best ROA.



What other ROAs did you attempt?

With regards the other ROAs you tried, can you please give us some qualitative, quantitative and timeline comparisons between these multiple ROAs?

Specifically, did you try liquid insufflation, and what differences did you note from sublingual/buccal?




IamMe90 said:


> .06mL of [NBOME in 40%] vodka into my nose
> 
> water (which I'm not sure you can super concentrate [to 15 mg/ml])



Yep, that volume is what I have stuck with in the past. 0.03 ml in each side. Works wonders!! Haven't NBOMe'd in a while, but the art of ROA was seemingly perfected with the volume you describe using liquid insufflation ROA.

From what I've seen, you can get most NBOMe (even the hydrophobic ones like 25I and 25E) to ~8 mg/ml in distilled water, which means that you can get 500 ug per 0.06 ml. Running a second insufflation after ~10 mins (the first has fully absorbed by then) will bring the total exposure to ~1 mg... Which is plenty in most cases.


----------



## SONN

Vaporizing this substance is absolutely insane. It'll get you to an incredibly strong +++ in less than a minute.


----------



## IamMe90

Transform said:


> How much did he plug?



1mg


----------



## Transform

Then I can't say I'm very surprised - that's a solid dose and plugging is an effective ROA.

My recommendation for vaping would be to have a dilute solution, 100ug per ml, and place 1ml at a time into a bulb-type vaporiser. Use a small candle to vapourise (save your thumb! and you have incredibly good dose control, easily able to gauge what sort of level you like.

It works better if the solvent is mostly alcohol, and less solvent is obviously preferable.


----------



## SONN

rdbomb said:


> My wife and I both find sublingual to be the best ROA. At first we tried 650ug, it was nice but it wasnt strong enough and didn't last as long as we would have liked. We have settled on 1.3mg to 1.6mg as the perfect dose. We were also really surprised to discover that redosing was really effective. We were able to effectively redose 650ug every 3 hours. It brought the effects back to full strength all 3 times over the course of the night. (we initially took 1.3mg each).by this method, we had effects from thirty minutes after placing it on the gums at 3:30 until about 7:30 when the effects wore off. We each took another 650ugs at about 8:00 with nearly full effects returning by 8:30. This time we did not wait for the effects to disappear completely and redosed at about 10:00. Effects were almost completely gone by 2:00. Three doses (1.3mg, 650ug, 650ug) lasted ten hours. Overall very impressive product, and our new official favorite! No negative feelings, deep ab-aching laughter, and incomprehensible beauty and awe. It's fantastic stuff.



so, did you have the salt or the freebase?


----------



## adder

IamMe90 said:
			
		

> If you have access to micropipettes (accurate ones) or insulin syringes it's quite easy to practically dose nbomes nasally. I dissolved my 75mg 25i-nbome in 5mL of 40% vodka to make a 15mg/mL solution and using an insulsin syringe only had to dose .06mL of vodka into my nose with an insulin syringe that had the tip cut off. This amount of liquid is absolutely miniscule and did not burn even remotely as much as insufflating a 2c-x chemical and none of the solution was lost in my nose.





			
				rdbomd said:
			
		

> My wife and I both find sublingual to be the best ROA. At first we tried 650ug, it was nice but it wasnt strong enough and didn't last as long as we would have liked. We have settled on 1.3mg to 1.6mg as the perfect dose.





			
				SONN said:
			
		

> Vaporizing this substance is absolutely insane. It'll get you to an incredibly strong +++ in less than a minute.



I've got one question relating to all of you. How long did it last intranasally/sublingually/inhaled compared to oral ROA and what doses are equipotent (subjectively of course)? What was the difference in time concerning the onset of effects? I was disappointed generally with the length of effects, NBOMe's compounds don't really differ much in duration of action for me than 2C-x compounds.


----------



## IamMe90

They have roughly the same duration as 2c-x drugs, I don't know why this is disappointing as 2c-i lasts a good 8-10 hours. Also, 25i-nbome is not orally active. 

Onset of effects nasal and rectal is approximately 5 min. for first alerts and 15-20 min. to peak I observed. Sublingual, the first alerts are experienced after around 30 minutes and peak effects are experienced at 1 to 1 and a half hours in my experience.


----------



## Waveryder

Have a couple of questions. First I am working with 25i freebase I don't not have access or plan to using a complexing agent. If I add white vinegar directly to the freebase in a 1:1 ratio I heard it will make 25i acetate, is 25i acetate bioavailable sublingually or nasally? Also can u plug the freebase? I know that the freebase form is best for evaporation, but plugging, snorting, and sublingual aren't all those transfer to the bloodstream through mucus membranes.


----------



## tregar

these compounds when hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin complexed come on very fast when placed under tongue and held there for 20 minutes, this being discovered to come on much faster then when the same HPBCD complexed material placed buccally (inbetween teeth and gums on upper lip). When placed under tongue, remember to hold in any saliva (don't swallow) for at least 15 minutes, the whole tongue usually goes numb after about 10 minutes of holding the nbome under tongue, indicating that the cyclodextrin complexed material is absorbed very quickly (in less than 15 minutes). However, it is still best to hold it under tongue for the entire 20 minute duration. When held under tongue, usually within 30 minutes a strong ramping up can be felt, and 1 to 1.5 hour after first being placed under tongue, the trip is fully underway. The cyclodextrin complexed material always deliver the exact same strength-based experience depending on dosage, there is no swaying to and from in dosage from month to month (non-complexed material placed under tongue), as each cyclodextrin complxed dose is absorbed fully 95% within 20 minutes. Contrary to popular belief, cyclodextrins also have been found to enhance the absorption of even hcl salted materials. So freebase or hcl salt, it makes no difference, it will work well for both.


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## tregar

I'm taking a 600ug cyclodextrin complexed dose tonight without anything in combination just to go back and re-visit this remarkable material fully on it's own. Even all on it's own, this material is so much like acid. In the midst of the trip right now...The mindspace is joyous, overflowing empathy and empathogenisis, remarkable humor, beautiful visuals and audial, the music is blowing me away and the mind trip is absolutely fascinating. I'm finding this 600ug journey to be extremely visual and deep, I am deeply impressed. I'm hitting myself over the head for not taking a larger dose of this long ago. Yes indeed, this is the "DMT of the phenethylamine world" as Erny so eloquently described it.


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## SONN

When Vaporized, this compound comes on in an instantaneous fashion, kind of similar to DMT. The main difference in the duration is that the peak lasts almost an hour then the comedown is quite a few hours. I vaped an unknown amount of 25i freebase and it was much too intense of a peak for me but after about 40 minutes my mind was more clearheaded and I was glowing with Euphoria. The plateau lasted like upwards of 5 hours after that but after like the 2 hour mark they were at a ++. The visual effects were really beautiful but I had a bad set and setting and dosage and all that. I would really recommend someone taking a really small dose then listen to their favorite album or something like that it would probably be awesome.


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## JBrandon

There is a long tail to this one. Main effects were down much more quickly than I expected, but there is some activity present and sleep isn't possible hours after the plateau has long passed.

Edit: I would also like to add that if you are hoping to avoid the 2C-x stomach distresses, well, you might be disappointed.


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## tregar

As much as we both fully enjoyed the solo 600ug cyclodextrin complexed 25i last night, we both felt it still needed the addition of the 300mg of mescaline (like we normally do) to give us the entire all-encompassing 100% mind-manifesting effect, the 5-HT1 agonism provided by the mescaline just adds the finishing touches to the extraordinary 25i state--the 2 together are Heaven, the full Monty, the full acid experience with nothing missing, i had run out of mescaline, but soon look forward to adding it back into the mix. The visuals/audio/high spiritual states are also magnified into the archaic realm of the Other World with the mescaline addition, changing the wavelength of the whole experience into glorious hyper-dimensional realms. I would think other 5-HT1 agonist could be added (in place of mescaline if not available) at very low doses like 4-aco-dmt, dipt, etc. to give the same effects that the addition of low-dose mescaline supplies.

If there is anything I learned dosage wise, it's that I need to increase the dosage of the 25i with the additions of the 300mg of mescaline in the future (to levels around 550ug to 600ug), perhaps even increasing the mescaline to 350mg in combination as well. The blood pressure reducing effects from the 5-HT1 agonism provided by the mescaline also counteract the 5-HT2A stimulating agonism provided by the 25i, so it's all very good in combo, yin & yang. The 5-HT1 agonism from the mescaline also contributes a beautiful calm introspective laid-back meditative state to the entire trip.  For example: "Buspar" is a common 5-HT1 medically created agonist with meditative and calming properties, these calming effects added to a 25i trip are very strong with the addition of the potent 5-HT1A & 5-HT1E psychedelic agonist mescaline. LSD & psilocin are also very strong 5-HT1 agonist, even stronger in this regards then it's 5-HT2A agonism. 

will be doing some experiments in the future combining 25i with (very low dose) 4-aco-dmt, the reports I read indicate it has spiritual, trancelike/sedative activity, and the receptor data for psilocin (closing related) shows it is a potent 5-HT1 agonist and even potent dopamine agonist, this will fare very well in combination with 25i, adding to it just what it needs, the missing 5-HT1/dopamine agonism. 

5-HT1 agonist "shut off serotonin firing" which appears imho to be an important contribution to the psychedelic state, else one becomes consumed in obsessive compulsive thought patterns, inattention and a tendency to hyperactivity when they could rather be engrossed in the meditative mind-manifesting thought process of a full-spectrum psychedelic. HPBCD is still available as "trappsol" and many other brand names, search and ye shall find.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of the natural God/nature made psychedelics like psilocybin, semi-synthetic LSD, mescaline antagonize the 5-HT1 recptors, it is crucial to the 100% mind-manifesting activity of all the "classic" psychedelics and what seperate them from many of the man-made psychedelics like DOI, DOM, DOC, 25i, 25c, etc. But this can be recaptured with no effort just by adding a low dose of mescaline into the mix, it doesn't take much, only 250 to 300mg.

The 5-HT1 receptors make up the largest proportion of 5-HT receptors in the brain, it is crucial to target these receptors as well as the 5-HT2 subclass (which are considered the main power "on" switch to psychedelic activity).

25i agonizes the following receptors [the lower the number, the greater the affinity]
5-HT2A (0.044), 5-HT2C (2), 5-HT6 (73), 5-HT2B (231), u opiate (82), kappa opiate [288]

mescaline agonizes the following receptors [4.00 = maximum affinity, 0.00 = no affinity]:
Alpha2c (4.00), 5-HT2B (3.97), 5-HT1A (3.61) Imidazoline1 (3.44), 5-HT1E (3.16), alpha 2a (2.92) and very poorly agonizes 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C.

So in other words, 25i-nbome + mescaline looks like this as far as affinity agonism (compare to the receptor affinity data from "LSD" from wikipedia, to see how similar the combination of mescaline + 25i is to LSD):

5-HT2A, Alpha2c, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT6, u opiate, kappa opiate, Imidazoline1, alpha2a.

"This trip of mescaline + 25i (4 hours later) is so %%!$%$ beautiful !!! I could just cry tears of happiness. I love this just as much as acid." (From one of my many mescaline + 25i trip reports).
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When we take the combination, we will divided the mescaline hcl into 3 seperate 100mg doses, spaced 1/2 hour apart, we will take the 25i under the tongue for 20 minutes right after dropping the 2nd of the mescaline doses, we time the doses this way to minimize any nausea from the mescaline, and so that the 25i dosage will hit at the same time as the mescaline is coming on. The 3rd or last of the mescaline doses is taken 1/2 hour after the 2nd mescaline dose was dropped.

When I close my eyes when both doses are peaking, I tend to see spinning bright neon colored mathmatically perfect geometrics, later progressing into actual scenes of foreign places of un-imaginable beauty with gardens and architecture and artwork, these forms are perfect in every way, shaped by the hands of God, the "Other World" far beyond our own, the scenes are ever changing and there is a theme to each trip, and a guiding force that teaches. If you play music while you are watching these visions, the scenes change and sync along with the music, incredibly beautiful. You see very deeply into yourself, you see ways to change yourself for the better, there is spiritual and mystical revelations, I usually end up crying in happiness. A gratuitous grace, not necessary for Salvation, but greatly accepted, Very Sacred.

Thomas Ray's paper is a fairly good resource for psychedelic receptor data, good way to hunt down other 5-HT1 agonist if mescaline is not available:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0009019
hxxp://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009019

Other compounds that would work in place of mescaline to hit lots of the 5-HT1 receptors and even the transcendental 5-HT7 (5-HT6 hit by 25i is quite similar) receptor are:

5-MEO-DMT
5-MEO-MIPT
4-ACO-DIPT

However, many of the above compounds are illegal in many countries

other options:

4-ACO-DMT (looks like a great candidate in very low dose, else make this dose larger and 25i dose very low)

etc.

In countries where the above are not illegal? should really consider theoretically taking advantage of adding some potent low-dose 5-HT1 agonist into the 25i-nbome mix, this difference is like night and day, it is sooooo much better, if you love LSD trips (100% mind manifesting) you will love combining the nbome with 5-HT1 agonist, LSD also hits a large amount of the 5-HT1 receptors, see below.

4.00=maximum affinity for the receptor site:

5-MeO-DMT: 4.00 5ht1a, 3.69 5ht7, 3.48 5ht1d, 2.73 5ht6, 2.41 5ht1b, 2.38 D1, 1.84 5ht5a, 1.72 5ht1e, 1.58 D3, 1.57 Alpha2C, 1.55 5ht2c, 1.00 Alpha2A, 0.98 5ht2a, 0.97 SERT, 0.88 Imidazoline1, 0.86 Alpha2B, 0.82 NET, 0.78 D4, 0.73 D2, 0.69 5ht2b; 0.00: Alpha1B, Beta2, Beta1, DAT, D5, Alpha1A, Sigma1, Sigma2, CB2, KOR, Ca+Channel, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, H2, CB1; ND: H1, DOR, MOR, NMDA
-----------------
Mescaline: 4.00 Alpha2C, 3.97 5ht2b, 3.61 5ht1a, 3.44 Imidazoline1, 3.16 5ht1e, 2.92 Alpha2A; 0.00: 5ht2a, 5ht2c, 5ht6, 5ht1d, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, Alpha1A, Alpha1B, 5ht5a, Alpha2B, 5ht7, Beta1, Beta2, SERT, DAT, NET, 5ht1b, Sigma1, Sigma2, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, H1, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, NMDA
-------------------
Psilocin: 4.00 5ht2b, 3.40 5ht1d, 3.37 D1, 3.03 5ht1e, 2.88 5ht1a, 2.83 5ht5a, 2.82 5ht7, 2.82 5ht6, 2.67 D3, 2.52 5ht2c, 2.19 5ht1b, 2.14 5ht2a, 1.77 Imidazoline1, 1.74 SERT, 1.57 Alpha2B, 1.36 Alpha2A, 1.03 Alpha2C; 0.00: D2, Alpha1B, D5, D4, Beta2, Beta1, DAT, NET, Alpha1A, Sigma1, Sigma2, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, M3, M4, Ca+Channel, H1, H2, CB2, CB1; ND: M5, NMDA
---------------------
5-MeO-MIPT: 4.00 5ht1a, 3.79 5ht7, 3.74 5ht1d, 3.32 5ht2b, 2.98 5ht6, 2.85 Alpha2A, 2.61 5ht1b, 2.44 5ht2a, 2.29 Alpha2C, 2.15 Imidazoline1, 2.13 Sigma2, 2.11 5ht5a, 1.86 Alpha2B, 1.75 5ht2c, 1.70 D3, 1.55 5ht1e, 1.41 H1, 1.29 D4, 1.28 SERT; 0.00: D2, Alpha1B, D5, D1, Beta2, NET, DAT, Sigma1, Beta1, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, Alpha1A, H2, CB2, NMDA, Ca+Channel; ND: CB1
---------------------
DIPT: 4.00 5ht1a, 3.53 Imidazoline1, 3.48 5ht2b, 2.98 SERT, 2.83 Sigma1, 2.68 Alpha2C, 2.65 Sigma2, 2.62 Alpha2B, 2.56 D3, 2.55 5ht7, 2.53 H1, 2.51 5ht1d; 0.00: 5ht2a, D4, 5ht5a, D1, D2, Alpha2A, 5ht6, D5, Beta1, Beta2, 5ht2c, DAT, NET, 5ht1b, Alpha1B, 5ht1e, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, Alpha1A, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, NMDA
----------------------
LSD: 4.00 5ht1b, 3.77 5ht7, 3.75 5ht6, 3.73 5ht1a, 3.70 5ht1d, 3.64 5ht5a, 3.54 5ht2a, 3.16 D3, 3.11 5ht2b, 3.11 5ht2c, 2.93 Alpha2A, 2.62 5ht1e, 2.55 D2, 2.39 D4, 2.34 D1, 2.05 D5, 1.54 Alpha1A, 1.40 H1, 1.39 Beta1, 1.05 Beta2, 0.65 Alpha1B; 0.00: KOR, DOR, DAT, SERT, MOR, NET; ND: Sigma2, Alpha2B, Alpha2C, Imidazoline1, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, Sigma1, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, NMDA
-----------------------
For example:

25i-nbome agonizes the following receptors [the lower the number, the greater the affinity]
5-HT2A (0.044), 5-HT2C (2), 5-HT6 (73), 5-HT2B (231), u opiate (82), kappa opiate [288]

mescaline agonizes the following receptors [4.00 = maximum affinity, 0.00 = no affinity]:
Alpha2c (4.00), 5-HT2B (3.97), 5-HT1A (3.61) Imidazoline1 (3.44), 5-HT1E (3.16), alpha 2a (2.92)

therefore, mescaline + 25i looks like:

5-HT2A, Alpha2c, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT6, u opiate, kappa opiate, Imidazoline1, alpha2a.

*** Also note that 25i-nbome is the most potent 5-HT2A agonist discovered, 5-HT2A agonism while being highly visual & holding high behavioral & empathogenic characteristics, also causes a bit of low level stimulation & raises blood pressure, 5-HT1 agonism on the other hand lowers blood pressure, shuts down serotonin firing, and has a meditative, serene, tranquil, calming quality, so combining the two serves a yin & yang purpose, to balance each other out. 5-HT1 receptors make up the majority of the 5-HT receptors in the brain, so if you don't antagonize them, you're never gonna get that 100% mind-manifesting psychedelic trip, all of the natural God/Nature made psychedelics antagonize the 5-HT1 receptors. 

I would never combine 25i with LSD because LSD is allready a very potent 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C receptor agonist. 25i is 100 times more potent at the 5-HT2A site than even LSD! This was shown by Nichols in his paper on 25i.

4-aco-dmt sounds like it will fully replace mescaline in combination with 25i, so long of course as the 4-aco-dmt dose is kept moderate in comparison to an added in very low dose of 25i, this ensures that all the 5-HT1 receptors are hit with more strength then the 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C are hit, ensuring that it will give psychedelic effects very similar to LSD, LSD also hits 5-HT1 and 5-HT7 and 5 other receptors with way more strength than 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C are hit, this ensures a mind-manifesting trip that is the opposite of an "in your face" trip which so often occurs with many synthetic man-made psychedelics like DOC, DOI, DOM, 2-CE, etc. which way overstress 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C over anything else, this in turn can cause lack of spiritual insight, too much body load, too much and run-away stimulation in comparison to sedating tranquil qualities, difficult trips, etc.

25i-nbome recaptures the overflowing empathy and euphoric qualities of LSD to a "T", i've used it enough times to know this for sure, this quality was also found to be inherent to 25i by Erny as well, the good humor, the overflowing empathy, this is the shared mindspace between 25i and LSD, it is a trait of high 5-HT2A & 5-HTC agonism, 5-HT2A & 5-HT2C agonism is also responsible for in depth behavioral qualities along with visual presentation. Adding this into the tryptamine trip (keep tryptamine dose high so that it is not "over-ridden" with 5-HT2A/HT2C agonims from 25i, keep in balance!) at a very very low dose, should serve to accentuate the empathetic, behavioral and visual qualites of any psychedelic trip, analogous to the overflowing joy-ous empathogenic LSD trip. So keep the tryptamine dose high (or mescaline dose for that matter if being used) yet add back in "just a touch of love" from the 25i with a very very low dose.

---------------

2. the only thing 25i-nbome has "going for it" is that it hits the 5-HT2A and 5-HTC with remarkable potency, just as LSD does, however, LSD (as nichols states in the Jerome paper) is really not that "remarkable" at the 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptors as compared to all the other 7 receptors it hits with way more intensity before those particular two....all the natural psychedelics (dmt, psilocin, 5-meo-dmt, mescaline, semi-synthetic lsd) hit the same number of other receptors such as 5-ht1a, 5-ht1b, 5-ht1d, 5-ht1e, 5-ht7, 5-ht6, 5-ht5a, d1, d3, etc. with way way more potency than they do the 5-ht2a and 5-ht2c receptors (just like lsd)....all the crappy man-made psychedelics like doi, dom, doc, 2c-e, etc. hit the 5-ht2A and 5-ht2C receptors with more strength than anything else, which makes them quite "un-balanced" and lacking in full 100% mind-manifesting power, 25i-nbome is no exception, it doesn't even hit any of the 5-HT1 receptors (what a pity), and is quite lacking....the only thing going for it is that it hits 5-ht2A/5-HT2C with great strength....this gives it the euphoria, love, over-flowing empathy, and visual take off power as LSD, but not much else, it will never be 100% fully mind-manifesting like LSD or psilocin or dmt unless you add quite a bit of mescaline along with the 25i, then it becomes "fully-balanced", but even when you do this, you gotta keep the mescaline dose much stronger than the 25i-dose else you end up with something way too strong on 5-ht2A/5-HT2c, just like all the man-made psychedelics which pale in comparison to "well rounded psychedelics" like LSD, psilocin, mescaline, dmt.

2. 25i-nbome captures the euphoria, over-flowing empathy, LOVE, humor, all the complex behavioral qualities that make us human, and the visual take-off power of LSD, but that is about it,, it only hits 2 receptors with any amount of super-power strength (the 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors)...just as LSD does...however, remember that LSD and psilocin, dmt, mescaline all hit over a handfull of OTHER important receptors with way way more power than they even hit 5-HT2A/5-HT2C receptors, this is paramount to a quality nature-made psychedelic, you NEED to hit the 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, 5-HT7, 5-HT6, 5-HT5A receptors with way more potency than 5-ht2a/5-ht2c to end up with a 100% mind-manifesting trip....the 25i trip feels like "half-a-psychedelic trip" because it is so lacking in not being able to hit the other brain receptors....it will always be "one-dimensional" because of this, this can only be corrected by taking 300 to 400mg of mescaline along with your low-level (350 to 500ug) dose of 25i. If you don't have mescaline, you can substitute any other well-rounded psychedelic like psilocyn, 4-aco-dmt, etc.

3. by reading over 1000 pages of 4-aco-dmt reports, this seems like it would be quite an awesome candidate (due to it's 100% mind-manifesting power) to use in combination with very low dose 25i-nbome, there are countless reports that comment on the sedating qualities of 4-aco-dmt indicating to me that it does indeed hit most if not all of the 5-HT1 receptors (and this is a very good thing)....I've read of about 4 reports where others have combined a good solid dose of 4-aco-dmt with very low dose 2ci, creating a remarkable trip where the 5-ht2a/5-ht2c agonism from the 2ci adds a bit of stimulation to the sedating 4-aco-dmt trip, as well as great visual power and wonderful behavioral/empathogenic qualities, 25i-nbome could do this job even better when added in very low dose amounts as well i believe, it blends so perfectly well with mescaline, and I think if mescaline were not available, 4-aco-dmt would be a very good candidate/substitute to use. Here again, however, you would only want to add in very very low dose 25i-nbome, as you would not want the 5-ht2a/5-ht2c agonism from the 25i-nbome to "over-ride" the other all important receptors sites, you only want to bring the 5-ht2a/5-ht2c agonism up to about a "mid-level" on the receptergnome chart....just like LSD does, but not more than that, else you end up with a very un-balanced psychedelic trip, that is "all in your face" and not much else.
--------------------------------
Take a look at the receptor data for the "classics" LSD and psilocin as compared to the man-made psychedelics, and you can see for yourself how "out of whack" they are, this explains why so many of them are considered "shallow", "non-spiritual", "in your face", etc...:

4.00 = maximum affinity/strength, I've high-lited the 5-HT2A/5-HT2 receptors so you can see they are midway to close to bottom as compared to all the others, this IS important in a CLASSIC 100% mind-manifesting psychedelic.

Psilocin: 4.00 5ht2b, 3.40 5ht1d, 3.37 D1, 3.03 5ht1e, 2.88 5ht1a, 2.83 5ht5a, 2.82 5ht7, 2.82 5ht6, 2.67 D3, *2.52 5ht2c*, 2.19 5ht1b, *2.14 5ht2a*, 1.77 Imidazoline1, 1.74 SERT, 1.57 Alpha2B, 1.36 Alpha2A, 1.03 Alpha2C; 0.00: D2, Alpha1B, D5, D4, Beta2, Beta1, DAT, NET, Alpha1A, Sigma1, Sigma2, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, M3, M4, Ca+Channel, H1, H2, CB2, CB1; ND: M5, NMDA

LSD: 4.00 5ht1b, 3.77 5ht7, 3.75 5ht6, 3.73 5ht1a, 3.70 5ht1d, 3.64 5ht5a, *3.54 5ht2a,* 3.16 D3, 3.11 5ht2b, *3.11 5ht2c*, 2.93 Alpha2A, 2.62 5ht1e, 2.55 D2, 2.39 D4, 2.34 D1, 2.05 D5, 1.54 Alpha1A, 1.40 H1, 1.39 Beta1, 1.05 Beta2, 0.65 Alpha1B; 0.00: KOR, DOR, DAT, SERT, MOR, NET; ND: Sigma2, Alpha2B, Alpha2C, Imidazoline1, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, Sigma1, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, NMDA

DMT: 4.00 5ht7, 3.97 5ht1d, 3.91 5ht2b, 3.53 Alpha2B, 3.53 Alpha2C, 3.51 D1, *3.42 5ht2c*, 3.28 5ht1e, 3.25 5ht6, 3.16 5ht5a, 3.13 Imidazoline1, 2.95 Alpha1B, 2.75 Alpha2A, 2.70 Alpha1A, *2.58 5ht2a*, 2.37 SERT, 2.23 Sigma1; 0.00: 5ht1a, D4, D5, Beta1, D2, D3, DAT, NET, 5ht1b, Beta2, Sigma2, CB2, KOR, Ca+Channel, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, H2, CB1; ND: H1, DOR, MOR, NMDA

Mescaline: 4.00 Alpha2C, 3.97 5ht2b, 3.61 5ht1a, 3.44 Imidazoline1, 3.16 5ht1e, 2.92 Alpha2A; 0.00: *5ht2a, 5ht2c*, 5ht6, 5ht1d, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, Alpha1A, Alpha1B, 5ht5a, Alpha2B, 5ht7, Beta1, Beta2, SERT, DAT, NET, 5ht1b, Sigma1, Sigma2, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, M3, M4, M5, H1, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, NMDA


Awesome! :clap: :clap: :clap: now uuuggggghh    compare with these man-made psychedelics...see how the 5-ht2A/5-HT2C strength "way" over-rides everything else? this is NOT GOOD !!! it causes a very un-balanced psychedelic trip that is "in your face", "too stimulating", "non-spiritual" and "not very mind-manifesting at all": 2ce is slightly better than all the other man-made psychedelics cause it at least hits a number of other important receptors with about equal strength. Remember that 5-HT1 receptors make up the largest percentage of receptors in the brain. 

DOI: *4.00 5ht2c*, 3.79 Alpha2A, 3.52 Beta2, *3.44 5ht2a*, 3.13 Alpha2B, 3.13 5ht2b, 3.00 5ht1d, 2.90 M4, 2.89 Beta1, 2.88 Alpha2C, 2.83 SERT, 2.66 5ht1e, 2.51 M3, 2.42 H1, 2.36 M2, 2.34 5ht6, 2.32 M5, 2.31 5ht1a, 2.23 M1, 1.90 5ht7, 1.73 Sigma1, 1.70 Sigma2, 1.67 D1; 0.00: 5ht1b, DAT, Imidazoline1, NET, 5ht5a, DOR, KOR, MOR, Alpha1B, D2, D3, D4, D5, Alpha1A, H2, CB2, CB1, NMDA; ND: Ca+Channel

DOB: 4.00 5ht2b, *3.23 5ht2a*, *2.97 5ht2c*, 2.11 Beta2, 1.89 5ht7, 1.82 Alpha2C, 1.79 5ht1d, 1.68 D3, 1.62 5ht1b, 1.53 M3, 1.44 5ht1e, 1.41 Alpha2B, 1.39 Imidazoline1, 1.25 Sigma1, 1.21 Beta1, 1.18 5ht1a, 0.96 Alpha2A, 0.87 5ht5a, 0.85 5ht6, 0.66 SERT, 0.63 H1; 0.00: D5, D2, D4, NET, D1, Alpha1B, Sigma2, DOR, KOR, MOR, M1, M2, DAT, M4, M5, Alpha1A, H2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, NMDA

TMA-2: 4.00 5ht2b, *3.42 5ht2a*, 3.04 H1, *2.58 5ht2c*; 0.00: 5ht1b, 5ht1a, 5ht1e, 5ht5a, 5ht6, 5ht7, D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, 5ht1d, Alpha1B, Alpha2A, Alpha2B, Alpha2C, Beta1, Beta2, SERT, DAT, NET, M5, Alpha1A, H2, M2; ND: KOR, DOR, M1, MOR, M3, M4, Imidazoline1, Sigma1, Sigma2, CB2, CB1, Ca+Channel, NMDA

2C-E: 4.00 5ht2b, *3.76 5ht2a*, 3.54 5ht1d, 3.44 Alpha2C, *3.38 5ht2c*, 3.00 5ht1b, 2.91 Alpha2B, 2.91 5ht1a, 2.77 5ht7, 2.71 Alpha2A, 2.60 5ht1e, 2.27 D3, 2.16 M5, 1.99 M3, 1.93 5ht6, 1.88 D2; 0.00: D1, Alpha1A, Alpha1B, 5ht5a, Beta1, M1, SERT, D4, NET, Imidazoline1, H1, Sigma2, DOR, KOR, MOR, NMDA, M2, DAT, M4, D5, CB2, H2, Ca+Channel, CB1; ND: Sigma1, Beta2

This poster from Youtube on "DOI vs. LSD" saids it perfectly imho:


> "LSD is much better than DOI beause DOI﻿ isn't as "mind expanding", profound or mystical.I find RC's are much more 'meh" or "shallow" compared to the deeper LSD or mushroom trips."


An often overlooked fact is that 5-HT1 agonism shuts off serotonin firing (Nichols) during a psychedelic trip, this is badly needed and much more important in strength than even 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonism. You can't shut off serotonin firing very well if stimulating 5-HT2A/5-HT2C agonism over-rides everything else.

I'm not trying to say that 25i-nbome is not unique, it is very unique, but like all tools it must be used properly (in combination with other proper psychedelics) to harness it's full power. The effects are mind-blowing, transcendental, hyper-dimensional, but only in combination with psychedelics like mescaline and the like. In short, if you love LSD, you will love combining 25i with other psychedelics that could use a little boost. We love mescaline, but we always sit in anticipation of when the 25i is gonna hit, cause it brings the experience up to a whole nother level, joy, humor, love, empathy, art-appreciation, spirit, and visuals are brought up to the nth degree, and we love it. It also allows you to stretch your mescaline doses out farther.


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## Kid Cozy

I have an order of 25I on the way and want to liquid dose subligualy (drop under toung or between gums and lips)
Iv looked everywhere and never got an full anwer on solubility unless HCL from what im reading im sure ill get the freebase and is it soulble in water? or what do you all suggest. I know it will work in 91% IPA but that burns pretty bad when dropped in mouth and i dont think i could hold that for 20+ minutes. Any helps apprecitated!!
thanks!


----------



## sn23

Just convert it to a watersoluble salt. Hydrochloric acid or vinegar seem to be convenient. Search this thread for procedures, I'm fairly sure you'll find something


----------



## Kid Cozy

Two pages back actually! ha.
So if I put 50mg in .5ml of vinigar and after it mixes in just add 4.5ml of water to make it .05ml per 500mcg?
or do i have to let the vinigar evaporate first? thanks!!


----------



## skillet

No you don't have to let the vinegar evaporate first, there'll only be about 3.6uL of left over vinegar in 0.05mL of the final solution.


----------



## quidlicker

polish 88.9% vodka 1 drop 500ug did the job got 5 200 drop bottles! I personally take 2-3 1 isnt visual or varily noticeable,


----------



## mercurialman

*HCL in Lubricant?*

Here's a thought.  Since the HCL is water soluble, could you add some to a water based anal lubricant?  Would it properly dissolve?  Would the other chemicals in a water based lubricant (I have no idea what they are) interfere in any way?  Would it be stable for long?

I really like the idea of a little bottle filled with magical, potent, and efficient butt trips.  Imagine, put on a glove, little dab on the finger, and away you go.  Or, I suppose, you could even have sex with it...?

First, I want to know if it's possible.  Then I'll figure out if it's a good idea or a horrible one.


----------



## Allaround

mercurialman said:


> First, I want to know if it's possible.  Then I'll figure out if it's a good idea or a horrible one.



Dosing someone without their knowledge is ALWAYS a HORRIBLE idea, if that's what you're planning.


----------



## mercurialman

You made an awful lot of assumptions about me there.  You don't even know my gender.  Maybe I want my boyfriend to fuck me in the butt with it?  I don't think the portion of my post you quoted really justifies jumping to the conclusions you did.


----------



## greenmeanies

Back to your question, I would assume the HCl form should dissolve in water-based lubricant. Should be active vaginally or rectally,  who knows exact efficiency though. Whether it's a good idea or not, remember that sometimes you just want more lube, not more drug. So be sure to keep the non-dosed lube nearby and well-labeled!


----------



## bluedolphin

So now fucking people in the ass with drugs stuck to the end of your dick or strap-on is the preferred method of taking psychedelic drugs?

All that anti-drug propaganda from the 50's and 60's is starting to make sense now...


----------



## Survived Abortion

mercurialman said:


> I really like the idea of a little bottle filled with magical, potent, and efficient butt trips.  Imagine, put on a glove, little dab on the finger, and away you go.  Or, I suppose, you could even have sex with it...?



Hahahahaha! I like the idea, if it would work. I always use some lube when I administer psychedelics rectally, it helps the syringe go in easier. It doesn't interfere with the absorption of the compound, although the compound is usually in a ml or so of solution. 

One way to find out if it dissolves would be to apply one dose, already dissolved in solution, to an amount of the lube. This will allow you to test it out in one application without having to dissolve a lot of 25i.

By the way, let me welcome you to Bluelight! :D


----------



## SONN

I had a really great trip on this drug today, as did a friend of mine. 

I tested out some blotters I just made. I intended to use 50 mg for 50 blotters but ended up making 50 mg for 42 blotters so they're a little more potent then I planned. I put it up inside my upper gum after washing my mouth out thoroughly with listerine and whatnot. I kept it there for about an hour.

The come up was only a tiny bit uncomfortable with slight jitters and discomfort but barely notable. It came on at first like a big old dose of MDMA and I felt like I was rolling balls. At a certain point I decided I was tripping hard enough and I wanted to go play some guitar in my room.

I played some really fucking epic shit. This was probably the best experience I have had playing guitar on a psychedelic. I started off just a little rocky then I decided to close my eyes and try and meditate with my guitar playing. I saw some sensational blue fractal closed eye visuals and had a feeling that I can only accurately describe as blasting off into space hahaha. It put me into a really highly emotional state on the guitar like I was just pouring my soul out with each chord it was incredible I got really really loud in my dorm room and actually for a slight moment got a little paranoid that my RA would knock on the door and tell me to turn it down haha. 

I later smoked some weed with some friends and it kicked it in quite a bit more. I really gotta say this compound just goes GREAT with weed, and the smoke didn't taste bad at all like it sometimes does for me on psychedelics. I also got some arizona iced tea grapeade flavor and it was delicious.

The clearheadedness that everyone speaks about was present. I was still tripping hard after I stopped playing guitar but was suprisingly really in control and even overly confident in myself hahaha. I noticed that after the peak the after effects seemed to like to linger as long as possible. especially if one keeps consuming marijuana over and over again! 

I plan to continue my research with this chemical!

I only have one question, is there a cross tolerance between 25-I-NBOMe and 25-C-NBOMe? like if I took 25i today can I take 25c tomorrow? Does anyone think this chem would have a cross tolerance with something else like LSD? please let me know.


----------



## IamMe90

There is a cross tolerance between all 5ht2a agonists, and given the close relation of 25c and 25i, there will most definitely be a marked cross tolerance. Wait a full week or experience diminished effects. 

And yes, this compound is certainly quite magical


----------



## Transform

Yes, it would dissolve fine in a water based lube, everything else checks out too, but "a dab" is not a properly measured dose, and as such I advise against this very strongly.

Tolerance seems to build quickly and last for around a month with these, there is a quick discussion elsewhere in the thread.


----------



## SONN

do you think the chances of it having a cross tolerance with LSD are slim?


----------



## slownerveaction

bluedolphin said:


> So now fucking people in the ass with drugs stuck to the end of your dick or strap-on is the preferred method of taking psychedelic drugs?



I love the future.


----------



## IamMe90

SONN said:


> do you think the chances of it having a cross tolerance with LSD are slim?



Did you read my post? lol

All 5ht2a agonists have marked cross tolerance. Almost every major psychedelic mediates most of its effects through 5ht2a (though clearly 25i and LSD both hit a range of receptors). It is not slim but entirely certain that they will produce significant cross tolerance, and you shouldn't be dosing these chemcials more than once a week anyway.

I'm not sure I buy the "month" tolerance thing, these claims seem to have been somewhat exaggerated in the early days of this chemical, I myself and a lot of others have applied the once a week rule to them without any problems. It's possible that the buildup of tolerance varies from person to person though.


----------



## freedstar

Can anybody say that if because it is super-potent at certain receptors, there will be more tolerance buildup?


----------



## space_traveler

I have some 25i in liquid solution and I was wondering what my best option is as far as dosing items for portable use. I really don't like taking a vial of 50mg 25i in my pocket to shows and clubs. Can I just drop this onto some normal paper? A mint? If anyone has done this I'd love to know how it went.


----------



## whataboutheforests

maybe you could just dilute a drop (or whatever dose you want) into alcohol and then put that into a vial, so you only have a mg or whatever on you when you're out.  Or just dose before you leave home. (sorry I have no experience with 25i but i thought I would give you my 2 cents)


----------



## walstib

*Beta-Cyclodextrin?*

Can Beta-Cyclodextrin be used as a complexing agent?  I've located this but am unable to find HPBCD in anything but kg. amounts.  Peace!


----------



## Transform

If you are having any trouble at all, you would be better off simply neutralising to a salt with vinegar or HCl.


----------



## walstib

*Crossing The Mucosa*

The problem with making the salt of 25I-NBOMe is that it is terra incognito.  Many phenethylamines simply don't form hydrochlorides as easily as outlined in this thread.  I see the amazing potential in this compound and want to do a uniform ROA.  Has anyone complexed it with just beta-cyclodextrin?  Complexing is not my forte but it seem that the hydroxy may be the part of the "nanotube" condom (how cool is that!?) that allows it to be polar.  The B-cyclodextrin is available in affordable quantities.
Has anyone actually tested the bioavailability of the salt sublingually?  What about any other complexing agents?  What a wonderous age we live in!


----------



## Transform

I'm yet to see any evidence that 25Xs form complexes as easily as outlined in this thread. Until then, neutralising to salt seems to be cheaper, easier and effective.


----------



## skillet

walstib said:


> The problem with making the salt of 25I-NBOMe is that it is terra incognito.  Many phenethylamines simply don't form hydrochlorides as easily as outlined in this thread.



No it's not, and yes, they do.


----------



## tryp2fun

walstib said:


> The problem with making the salt of 25I-NBOMe is that it is terra incognito.  Many phenethylamines simply don't form hydrochlorides as easily as outlined in this thread.  I see the amazing potential in this compound and want to do a uniform ROA.  Has anyone complexed it with just beta-cyclodextrin?  Complexing is not my forte but it seem that the hydroxy may be the part of the "nanotube" condom (how cool is that!?) that allows it to be polar.  The B-cyclodextrin is available in affordable quantities.
> Has anyone actually tested the bioavailability of the salt sublingually?  What about any other complexing agents?  What a wonderous age we live in!



Huh? Phenethylamines form hydrochloride salts quite readily, and those salts have much better solubility and hence bioavailability than the free bases.  25Xs are no exception.  Tryptamines, in contrast, often don't form good solid hydrochlorides.  Simply dissolve the amine in a suitable solvent, such at isopropyl alcohol, add a few drops of hydrochloric acid to neutralize, mix well, and evaporate the solvent to get the crystalline hydrochloride salt.  Alternatively, dilute with ether to precipitate the hydrochloride.  Salt formation is easier and more reliable than cyclodextrin complexation.  25I hydrochloride is indeed active sublingually at dosages comparable to the hydroxypropylcyclodextrin complex.


----------



## Pastel

Two weeks ago I have tested 25I on a complexed blotter at 500ug from vendor 1. I don't know whether it was a salt or a freebase. It was a beautiful experience with initial effects kicking in after 30 minutes. By 45 minutes I had an incredible body and mental euphoria and could not keep myself from dancing like a little kid. During the whole 10 hour trip, aside light chills during the first hour and 15 minutes of mild nausea sometime in the middle of the trip, there was no body load. I enjoyed dancing, listening to music, watching tv (wing-suite flying, Cabaret), talking to my girlfriend and sex. Sex was good, but nowhere as incredible as when on 5-MEO-Mipt, which produces such incredible orgasms that I scream louder then my girlfriend who is quite a screamer, and my testicles are pulled back into the body. 4-ACO-Dmt, at about 10mg is also superior to 25I in this respect. But to me this compound beats MDMA by an order of magnitude in terms of body euphoria.  I dutifully waited for two weeks, and yesterday tried 500ug 25I blotters from another vendor. I know that they were not complexed, but don't know whether a salt or a freebase was used. After about 1.5 of wait, I experienced very mild visual distributions as if coming up on a light doze of tryptamines. To my dismay, there was no euphoria of any kind. I took a second blotter. That made me feel intoxicated to a point that I decided to neither drive, nor to take a cab to a dancing club, where I and my significant other were planning to go. Unfortunately, there was still nether euphoria nor much of additional energy. Worse, I felt quite nauseous for about three hours. I should mention that I had Salvia Devinorum the night before, and it was a strong experience. I was under impression that Salvia and 25I do not share a common mechanism. So now I have a large number of blotters that I don't know what to do with. At the risk of sounding stupid, I would like to ask a couple of questions. The vendor 2 has a pretty good reputation, but his 25I has not been reviewed. If vendor confirms that that these non-complexed blotters have been treated with a freebase, could they be activated by one of the following methods:
1) Applying a drop of white vinegar to each blotter.
2) Applying a solution of hydroxypropylcyclodextrin in water?
3) Applying a solution of hydroxypropylcyclodextrin in white vinegar?

Thanks.


----------



## Kid Cozy

So when I apply the 25I to vinegar should it dissolve? do i need to add more? its just staying a blob in the bottom. i wish to add water later to liquid dose was just under the impression i had to do this before it would be soulble in water.


----------



## Kid Cozy

Ended up adding water to it. worked well 

Made my legs hurt decently despite being one of my new fav psychedelics!

anyone else get weird pains in there legs?


----------



## TheAppleCore

Just had an incredible, glowing trip on this substance. Want to write a trip report, but a little intimidated by the prospect of attempting to put the experience into words. :D

Long story short, 25I-NBOMe, as the first NBOMe phenethylamine I've personally tested, exceeded my already-high expectations.

Some quick observations:

Positive:

- No real bodyload.
- Clear and sharp mental functioning. However, offers a fresh perspective, from which one can view oneself and the world in a totally new light, enabling powerful insights.
- Fascinating hallucinatory, perceptual phenomena. Rather than just visuals, one experiences magnificent and detailed hallucinations that encompass all the senses.
- Incredible enhancement of music and other forms of art.
- Long-lasting high allows for leisurely exploration of the altered state.
- Strong stimulation offers a great opportunity for nighttime tripping, without tiring easily.
- Positive and confident mindset makes a bad trip seem like an unlikely prospect.

Negative:

- Due to potency, a bit difficult to dose.
- Slight depression experienced the following day. Not quite as bad as LSD, for me, which a lot of people don't even find problematic. I'm guessing a good portion of users won't find 25I-NBOMe to have any negative after-effect either. YMMV


----------



## psychonauss

Ok, so I tried this substance with a few friends some days ago, and we all loved it, everyone enjoyed the trip, but some of them are concerned about possible health problems that this substance might bring, I know it's a new RC so there's no research on it, but I never heard of a story of someone having any health issue with 25I-NBOMe. 

But what's the worse it could happen with moderate use? 
What evidences do we have that it is perfectly safe?

I hope someone can answer that.

thanks!


----------



## Jesusgreen

psychonauss said:


> But what's the worse it could happen with moderate use?



We don't know, as you said, it's a research chemical, and a very new one at that.



psychonauss said:


> What evidences do we have that it is perfectly safe?



There is none.

It isn't likely that these substances would be dangerous in the long run, aside from users own mistakes with dosing these (which are quite common given people seem to think it's okay to dose these without a scale, which it most definitely isn't.) - however with any new substance you should be extremely cautious, avoid going for doses that are too large, avoid dosing too often (since, even if physically they may be rather benign, some psychedelics tend to be more prone to cause HPPD than others, and with these we don't know if that's the case or not yet), generally just be responsible and make sure you've done your research beforehand if you want to try these new chemicals.


----------



## walstib

*Hcl. Went Wonderfully*

Salted out 100 mgs. with 'tone/IPA.  Base insouluble, freely souluble at pH 4.2 in solvent pair.  Precipitated 88 mg.  off-white needles.  Laid 880 micg. gels.  Will apply to substrate for testing at sundown.  Thanks for feedback.  Will reply with results of test later.  I'm just dancing with anticipation.  When you get to be of my age (50 ++) and there is something new under the sun it borders magic.  If you are not part of the solution you are part of the precipitate!  PEACE.


----------



## meta-psychedelic

I recently got the freebase form and am excited to start researching it. I would like to vape a low dose of it just to get a general sense of 25i's psychedelic "signature", but know eyeballing isn't a good idea so volumetric dosing is the only way to go. I have all the proper measurement equipment but wonder about the best method to create a freebase solution, but not into HCl form (since TRs indicate it isn't as effective as freebase when vaping...though I do plan on making a salting it for other ROAs). I only have a bit of 96% ethanol and figure I'd make a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio of ethanol to water...am a bit rusty on my chemistry but this shouldn't turn it into a salt yet it will be soluble (70 isopropyl alcohol should work as well too)? Also, does anyone know dosage differences b/w complexed and non-complexed 25i blotters? Based on trip reports it seems as though the HPBCD is mainly good for buccal/sublingual dosing.


----------



## greenmeanies

1:1 ethanol/water will probably not dissolve freebase phenethylamines. 70% iso might work but it may have too much water still.

You should probably talk to the guy who posted directly above you, as he seems to know how to work with this stuff.


----------



## SONN

Is anyone else getting annoyed at the sublingual method with this compound? I made blotters and people I give them to keep fucking it up and not feeling it, I'm thinking it mainly has to do with saliva and whether or not you wash your mouth out before. It's just annoying when people say they didn't feel your stuff then nobody wants it.


----------



## ntat

Okay... so my question is about the actual process of laying a liquid solution onto blotter paper. What's the best way to go about doing this?

I have some 25b-nbome hcl coming, and I'm gonna have enough to get away with a few experiments before settling on a method to use in the future. 

I plan to start with only say 50 blotters, so a piece of water color paper that would be 1.25 inches by 2.5 inches. My solution is going to be in 151 everclear seeing as I have no idea where to get 96 percent etoh around here. I want to have maybe 1500ug per blotter. (25b is A LOT less potent than 25i and requires about 3-4mg for a stronger experience). 

So I'd start out with 75mg of 25b-nbome hcl.

Figure out the maximum amount of 151 my 1.25 x 2.5 inch water color paper will absorb..

then use that same amount of liquid to add the 75mg of 25b to. 

but then here's where i'm confused. should I just lay the paper down in the bottom of a pyrex dish and apply the solution to it using a syringe? if I use exactly as much solution as the paper will hold without dripping, then my losses should be minimal AND the solution should be saturating the paper EVENLY so each dose will be the same... right? I'm also worried that this might not be enough 151 to fully dissolve 75mg into. 

The other idea I have is to do exactly this, but when it's drying, use a couple of clothes pins to suspend it horizontally, this way none of the solution will have a chance to be left behind on the pyrex glass... but could produce uneven doses is the paper is not perfectly level, as it evaporates the alcohol will get kind of suctioned into the dry spots causing a sort of 'double dipping' effect...

these are of course all assumptions as I have yet to attempt any of this.

Last time I made drops with 100mg and 20ml of distilled water. it worked pretty well and came out to about 500ug per drop, but with the reduced potency that wasn't nearly strong enough and I had my test subjects insufflating 8 drops of water that were sitting in the bottom of a bent straw... the large amount of liquid caused a lot of the product to go to the back of the throat and down into the stomach almost immediately, so some product would be lost unless the test subject knew exactly how hard to inhale it.

Then there's also the option which everyone here is going to shit their pants over...

weigh out a chunk of like 20 milligrams and then from that smaller portion eye out 5 more or less even doses for about 4 miligrams per dose, and just cap those up and tell people to take one end off the cap and snort it.

This is how the 25i I've bought before was sold to me. Dude just divided up a larger 10mg portion as well as he could and capped it up... I must say, it worked fantastically tho the only issue I have with it is that I didn't know exactly how much it was... tho now that I'm a lot more experienced with the nbomes, I can guess they were about 1mg capsules and no more than that, as the strength of them goes along with the 1mg reports I've read online. (bring on the shit storm.)

So anyway... if any one could be of some help WITHOUT freaking out that I took an eye balled dose at one point and came out just fine... that would be greatly appreciated.

I read every single page of this thread, and I've been lurking blue light for years, so I know I'm about to get shit on for the eye balling thing, but seriously, I'm asking for help, not to be insulted and told that I'm not responsible enough to handle these types of substances. So keep that shit to yourselves please. 


peace


----------



## skillet

What? I thought 25B was intermediate in potency between 25I and 25C. Can't really help you with laying blotters, I've never tried but I imagine there's no perfect way of doing it and you'll get some variability regardless. I'd probably make a fairly concentrated solution, maybe 10mg/mL (if you can go that high) and apply a single dose to an individual piece of blotter as needed. Then there's no loss by drying it flat in a pyrex dish, no variable concentration from hanging a sheet to dry, even hanging a sheet close to horizontal would probably still give stronger blotters towards the edge of the sheet.

SONN, don't give it to people who aren't prepared for some hassle administering it. If they give up when it doesn't work they're obviously not that interested. But putting it between the cheek and upper gums should make less leach out into saliva, I don't know if it makes a big difference brushing the area beforehand.



meta-psychedelic said:


> I recently got the freebase form and am excited to start researching it. I would like to vape a low dose of it just to get a general sense of 25i's psychedelic "signature", but know eyeballing isn't a good idea so volumetric dosing is the only way to go. I have all the proper measurement equipment but wonder about the best method to create a freebase solution, but not into HCl form (since TRs indicate it isn't as effective as freebase when vaping...though I do plan on making a salting it for other ROAs). I only have a bit of 96% ethanol



96% EtOH would dissolve the freebase, though according to MattPsy the HCl salt is as or more effective by vapourisation than the freebase, and shows less signs of decomposition during the process.


----------



## walstib

*Results of 880 micg.*

88 mgs. of the Hcl. recovered  in acetone/IPA yeilding 88% slightly off-white needles from 100 mgs. of the base.  These were dosed at at 880 mcgs. in gels via the original fluff LSD method evolved from the windowpane 1972 method by these crafty kids round about 1982 with flourescent light lens pyramids.  Administired bucally/subling.  Effects + apparent at 30 mins., quickly to a ++ at 45 min. then a solid +++ at one hour through next six.  Bright,  flowing intense CEVs, three-dimensional fractal like, arabic/Indian/Tibet/Persian carpet motifs, straight flat plane geometrics, washing color plates and planes etc. etc.  Never able to well describe such beauty I'm not a poet but just breath-takingly inspirational.  Visuals reminiscent of needlepoint LSD liquid delivery system (what a treat.  Those were the days.  Always had fluff but that once/twice a year needlepoint xls. were another level visually!).  No body load, very nice ++/+++ head.  Empathy with fellow 'nauts at +++.  4th hour, sex fabulous.  Gotta throw in my soulmate I finally found at 52 years old is one half my age, smoking hot and for some reason loves me to death.  Can't figure that one.  If she was a hooker I sure couldn't afford her!  Anyhow, 7-8 hours returned to baseline, pleasantly tired.  Napped, coffee and cig. (what a demon is that nicotine) typed this report.  Wish I could be more elequent (sp?-oh oh, the afterglow effects my spellablility :>) ) on report but words always fail me when trying to describe any mindstate.  Enjoyed this as much/more in some aspects as any of the 2-Cx's.  Transcendent.  Thanks for looking.  PEACE.


----------



## meta-psychedelic

Thanks for the info guys. 96% EtOH did dissolve 10mg at 4ml with little stirring needed. After adding 4ml water it turned into a cloudy suspension and is still such. Adding another 1ml 96% EtOH didn't help turn it back into clear solution. Not sure if it's usable sublingually, intranasally or other ROA, but I figure the 25i is evenly spread throughout the suspension since there are no solids forming on the bottom even after letting it sit for 8 hours. Don't have anymore of the 96% EtOH (& can't get anymore) but have some 40% vodka and 70% isopropyl, so could dilute with that and see if it becomes clear again.


----------



## collinz12

This is the health effects of PhEtamines thought it would be useful to include this in this thread because someone was asking about it and alot of yall probably dont know.

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v04n1/04134pea.html


----------



## nottheusual

Would the following product be a good source of HPBCD for complexing blotters?

It's a liquid supplement which contains: 

Per Serving Proprietary Blend	83 mg 
Proprietary Blend: Hydroxy Propyl Beta Cyclodextrin, Puerarin 98%, GHRP-Marus Alba Extract
Ingredients: Citric Acid, Soy Lecithin, Potassium Sorbate, Calcium EDTA (freshness), Sodium Benzoate, Sucralose, Natural and Artificial Flavor, Purified Water, Chitosan.


----------



## sn23

The HPBCD in this supplement is already complexing something, therefore added 25I-NBOMe would have to compete with the other hydrophobic compounds for the binding pocket. Nobody can say for sure if / how well that would work. But a pure Cyclodextrin is a better bet.


----------



## Transform

Do we have _any_ evidence that complexing is more effective than simply neutralising to a salt. Do we even know for sure if the pore size is correct?


----------



## TheAppleCore

^ This is the Great Question that I would love to see answered.


I might have to just buy some HPBCD and test this out for myself.


----------



## twelvesevndi

also I would like to ask: has anyone noticed any subjective differences between nasal and buccal administration?

i have tried 25i only by the nose. i found it to be very "speedy" (felt like amphetamine) compared to buccal administration of 25d or 25c.
i'm guessing this effect is something unique to this compound. Hopefully i can bioassay some 25d via nasal before long. 

do other people find the iodine moiety to be very pushy and stimulant-like?


----------



## Survived Abortion

Kid Cozy said:


> Ended up adding water to it. worked well
> 
> Made my legs hurt decently despite being one of my new fav psychedelics!
> 
> anyone else get weird pains in there legs?



It could very well have been from vasoconstriction. I have yet to try 25I. 25C did not give me that kind of vasoconstriction, but I presume it is also dependent on many factors including dose, personal physiology, and even things such as what/when you last ate, external stressors, hormones and level of physical activity. For instance, I experienced profound vasoconstriction once on 5-MeO-MiPT after I had been laying down in the sun for hours, and when I got up my legs caned intensely. 

You may be able to mitigate this by moving around periodically to keep the circulation flowing. Niacin, magnesium, and Hawthorn are examples of vitamins and supplements that have a vasodilator effect. It may be helpful to keep some around. I might do the same for future experiments.


----------



## TheAppleCore

Now that you mention vasoconstriction, I do recall during my 25I trip an occasional slight tingling in the extremities. Nothing painful or distracting, but I definitely wasn't imagining it. Would this be related to vasoconstriction?


----------



## SONN

Soooo I've been doing some thinking about a point someone made in a thread about the PH level of your stomach effecting the absorption of psychedelics. Apparently having a more basic environment potentiates the absorption of most PEA's. I was wondering if the raising the PH level of your mouth before trying to buccally absorb 25i-NBOMe would potentiate the absorption of it into your cheek cells.

Would chewing up a tums really thoroughly or swishing some pepto bismol around my mouth before dosing have a chance of potentiating the buccal absorption of 25i?


----------



## Transform

I'd like to see that thread.

The body works very hard to ensure that the pH of the stomach is about 1.


If the theory holds for the mouth we would see that the salt, formed at low pH, would be better absorbed... and it is.


----------



## SONN

The thread was actually about Vitamin C effecting the power of psychedelic substances or something of that nature. there was a point made that eating a tums right before mescaline potentiates it and that should apply to almost any PEA in the 2c-family.


----------



## Transform

I think, and I might be wrong here, that the idea of that is to reduce urine pH, slowing excretion.


----------



## SONN

hmmmmm well maybe I'll try the tums thing next time I take a tab and see if it seems substantially stronger than a tab was previously


----------



## DwayneHoover

SONN said:


> Soooo I've been doing some thinking about a point someone made in a thread about the PH level of your stomach effecting the absorption of psychedelics. Apparently having a more basic environment potentiates the absorption of most PEA's. I was wondering if the raising the PH level of your mouth before trying to buccally absorb 25i-NBOMe would potentiate the absorption of it into your cheek cells.
> 
> Would chewing up a tums really thoroughly or swishing some pepto bismol around my mouth before dosing have a chance of potentiating the buccal absorption of 25i?



No effect via swishing.  Taking the 2C or -drone or amphetamine ORALLY about 10 mins after eating a LOT of tums (or a teapspoon of baking soda [but beware this can lead to liqui-shits]) can and in my and others experience DOES enhance the effect by about 1/3 via an effect on absorption of phenethylamines caused by the basic environment (acidic environment caused by fruit juices causes inverse effect, reduced absorption... perhaps not so much via vitamin C... there is ALOT more acid in a glass of OJ due to the LARGE amount of citric acid as opposed to even grams of C).  Anyway, the effect is one that occurs on the response of the digestive system, not on the drug itself and not on mucosal tissues.


----------



## Solipsis

twelvesevndi said:


> also I would like to ask: has anyone noticed any subjective differences between nasal and buccal administration?
> 
> i have tried 25i only by the nose. i found it to be very "speedy" (felt like amphetamine) compared to buccal administration of 25d or 25c.
> i'm guessing this effect is something unique to this compound. *Hopefully i can bioassay some 25d via nasal before long.*
> 
> do other people find the iodine moiety to be very pushy and stimulant-like?



I haven't tried 25I but I have tried 25C and 25D both nasally using mannitol as a carrier. My trial of 25D was only very recently, the dose was 400 ug. This isn't the thread for it but I wanted to comment on your remark because insufflating 25D gave me side-effects that were partially speedy-like in that it gave me palpitation so I'm thinking adrenergic action... but what was worse was very cold feet, it felt pretty bad especially for that low a dose.

The experience itself was quite pleasant though. I was satisfied having my mannitol-cut snortable product but now after this experience I wonder if the route of administration makes a lot of difference. I thought 25C was really quite okay.


----------



## MattPsy

So, there needs to be analogues of this series made where a single fluorine is attached on either of the carbons adjacent to the amine nitrogen.
(random musings)
(to protect against cleavage at this bonding site, to test the first-pass metabolism degradation theory - it should work)


----------



## Survived Abortion

^Are you saying that the NBOMes could be made orally bioavailable by modifying the molecule in this way? If so, then I think the chemists need to pay attention  The ROA is the only reason why I rarely explore these series.



TheAppleCore said:


> Now that you mention vasoconstriction, I do recall during my 25I trip an occasional slight tingling in the extremities. Nothing painful or distracting, but I definitely wasn't imagining it. Would this be related to vasoconstriction?



Interesting. It possibly could have been, although I would have thought that by the time you were feeling tingling sensations associated with numbness, other symptoms of vasoconstriction would have been noticeable to you such as cold hands and feet. I find vasoconstriction on psychedelics to be a painful thing, to some degree. 25C was very tactile enhancing for me with the tactile equivalent of visuals. Even chewing something crunchy felt very strange on my teeth. I could imagine feeling tingling sensations on this psych, pleasant ones.

As long as you are not feeling pain or experiencing blueing of the extremities, I would not be too worried.


----------



## Erny

MattPsy said:


> So, there needs to be analogues of this series made where a single fluorine is attached on either of the carbons adjacent to the amine nitrogen.
> (random musings)
> (to protect against cleavage at this bonding site, to test the first-pass metabolism degradation theory - it should work)


Carbons adjascent to what? If you meant amino function indeed I fear it would be not stable enough for some regular isolation, not talking about doing it in vivo. 





If you wanted to say "adjascent to the carbon to which the amino function is attached", that would lower the basicity of the amine, which is bad. Even making it from primary to secondary amine by adding the benzyl substituent is bad, but that is compensated by the effect on binding of that (2-OMe)benzyl. But then it shouldn't protect it against any metabolic degradation it might be suffering from.


----------



## Erny

And even if we manage to eliminate the possibility of their metabolic degradation, what we would probably get are the chemicals with 30+ hours duration of effects, due to their lipophilicity. Even 2C-H-NBOMe and 2C-O-NBOMe hydrochlorides dissolve in chlororganics just as well as 2C-B or I -NBOMe. So they still are PTCs, regardless of the seemingly low logP.


----------



## asparks206

Hmm, what about eating something very spicy or even swishing hot sauce in your mouth a bit before a sublingual application? Wouldnt that stimulate the blood vessels in the mouth & tongue & help facilitate the rate/amount of drug entering ones bloodstream? I recently got an awesome deal on 25i nbome as an introductory offer for this chem at one of the vendors I go through, I couldnt pass it up. The thing is, I now have way more than someone who isnt trying to deal needs considering the minuscule dosage range. I've gone over this thread back & forth three or four times & there doesnt really seem to be a consensus on exactly how to ingest/prepare this material. In my head, I'm thinking some sort of gel tab formulation might just be the way to go. I have no chemistry experience whatsoever, so I hope it's not a stupid question to wonder about the success of dissolving said substance in an alcohol based mouthwash such as scope or listerine & how that would affect or detract from the bioavailability or potency. I saw on Current where a medicine man in Brazil administered an extremely potent substance to his patients by burning out dots on their skin with a long twig & then applying the medicine directly on the fresh wounds. Could this procedure work with some of the microgram threshold drugs I wonder?


----------



## Transform

We think it's totally destroyed on first pass.

If it avoids first pass then it sticks around for 8 hours.

That means it's _somewhere_ for 8 hours which allows it to avoid the liver. (The brain perhaps)

If we can stop it getting metabolised on first pass, then it could go round the body twice, get reabsorbed and stay in the brain for another 8 hours until it eventually gets excreted.


Seems like preventing the metabolism could be really risky with something like this.


----------



## JBrandon

It doesn't quite work like that Transform. Your liver is not the only organ responsible for breaking this down, your brain itself is quite capable of "metabolism".


----------



## shishigami

When making blotters whats the greatest solubility that's been achieved? I made a solution of 10mg/mL and used that to make blotters but I could only get 150 mcg in a 1/2" square. I ended up doubling up the dose to 300 mcg but know that commercially available blotters are much smaller at a higher dose and was wondering how those were made. 

Anyway, two blotters applied bucally for 20 minutes didn't produce a whole lot of effects other than a very pleasant body load and very dilated eyes.


----------



## ntat

shishigami said:


> When making blotters whats the greatest solubility that's been achieved? I made a solution of 10mg/mL and used that to make blotters but I could only get 150 mcg in a 1/2" square. I ended up doubling up the dose to 300 mcg but know that commercially available blotters are much smaller at a higher dose and was wondering how those were made.
> 
> Anyway, two blotters applied bucally for 20 minutes didn't produce a whole lot of effects other than a very pleasant body load and very dilated eyes.



Yeah... I'm wondering about the best way to make potent blotters as well. 
I've been experimenting with 25B however, and the potency of this is much less than 25i... you'd need about 3-5mg to get a common/strong effect from it.

I was going to do something like this...

Take a piece of water color paper, measured 1.25in x 2.5in for 50 blots of 1/4in each, figure out exactly what the maximum amount 151 everclear it will absorb with out dripping, then use that ammount to disolve 100mg of 25b-nbome into for blotters of 2mg each. BUT I'm not 100 percent that 2mg will fit onto a 1/4inch piece of blotter... i might go for 75mg to make 1500ug blotters instead, also would lend towards more accurage dosing as taking 2 would be 3mg and 3 would be 4.5mg both would be perfect amounts of 25b. 

would this work? I mean, obviously it depends on how much 151 my water color paper will absorb and if i'll be able to dissolve 100mg into that amount, which I can't imagine will be more than a few ml. 

I'm waiting on a TEK over on EK about laying blotter that should be up in the next couple days, but my shit will be here either today or tomorrow and I wanna make moves on getting this done soon. Ordering a .000 scale tonight after I get off work and am going to have it over nighted to me.

also plan to take another 100mg and make a nasal spray with it, which wont be nearly as involved as laying blotters, but it will be more for on the spot dosing rather, and i wont be able to just give it to people for a later date.

either way... any advice or tips you have would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## Transform

JBrandon said:


> It doesn't quite work like that Transform. Your liver is not the only organ responsible for breaking this down, your brain itself is quite capable of "metabolism".



I'm quite aware of that, but we know it's not being broken down so quickly in the brain as it is in the liver, else it would last a similar duration when eaten as it does when snorted. My pharmacokinetics isn't perfect but I'm pretty sure I'm understanding this correctly?


----------



## collinz12

If the chemical were replaced with fluorines at all of the alpha nitrogen positions would "solve the problem"  BUT if they were to breakdown at that point, we would get 2c-i.  In addition, the fluorines would stabilize the sN1 mechanism (stable CF2 cation) and actually might speed up the reaction; and havent people taken large enough doses orally to notice a high from 2c-i being released because of cleavage??


----------



## greenmeanies

I think there was one oral run-up posted somewhere that culminated with even at 30mg there was no effect. I cannot find the source right now so don't take this as fact.


----------



## OTGee

Im getting 10x 500ucg tabs of 25i and was wondering what a good dosage would be? Some people seem to have a good time with 500ucg but maybe 1mg would be better as I don't want a let down, what will 1 tab be like?


----------



## RobotRipping

^you will get some effects but i think it would kind of be a let down, especially if you have lots of experience tripping. 1mg is about perfect, i find it wears off quick (5 hours) so i usually dose twice in a night for 2-3mg total. I guess it depends how much is absorbed but every time i dosed around 1mg i had a satisfying trip.


----------



## Bubbles19

Howdy guys!
i swear i have been jumping around in this thread, with ever growing interest.
me and a close friend have 250mg on the way, and i wanted to see what everyone thought of this improvisation, and could give me any tips.
because like it has been said many time in this thread, it is an RC, so all data is speculation at this point.

alright, now we are capable oh having an MG scale shipped, not for a few weeks though, but in doing some math i figured this out.
the USB-100 precision scale i have works in grams, but has the grains feature as well.
rounding up, a grain is equal to 65mg, yet my scale only registers at 3.1 grains, just over 206 mg. 
so is it too far fetched to weigh out to 3.8 grains and estimate about 250mg +/-?
does this seem too preposterous a temporary solution to anyone? 
and from that point on, diluting would work in which solution? from my reading distilled water works fine, but i may be mistaken.

and my final point, this experience is going to be a hike in what we call "pandora" in northern californian mountains, meaning no other humans for a few mountains around us.
given that simple situation, what would you recommend as a good first dose for a group of experienced psychonauts. from what i have read, around 1mg sounds like the spot, any opinions?

thanks!


----------



## greenmeanies

Very preposterous. Do not even open the bag of chemical until you have a milligram scale in hand. Even with liquid measurement, your current scale is only +/- 0.5g which is incredibly dangerous.


----------



## Bubbles19

well i have run a trial in the past with 2ci, and after 5 different trial runs to 3.9 grains. i weighed out the batch on a friends mg scale and it only varied by 5-10 mg, when i compared it to the math of converting grains to mg.
and then the thought was to dilute it down to a little under .8mg per ml.
still too risky though, especially with this.

it was a possible solution that was unlikely, but i figured it was worth posting about just to be sure.
do not be afraid that i would actually have the irrationality to attempt this. It was just out of mere interest, i understand that you are merely hoping and praying your calculations (and your scale) aren't wayyy off when working with chemicals of this potency.

it seems just for giggles i will probably weigh it out initially on the scale in a vessel, then reweigh on the mg scale.
it would just be interesting to see if it even gets it close.


----------



## Typewritermonkey

So I dissolved 500mg of 25i into 250mL of 99% EtOH to get a concentration of 2000ug/1ml.  I then stirred it with a magnetic stirrer for a good thirty minutes and the entire solution was formed very quickly, and left to settle.  After 24 hours and no crystals could be seen in the solution, I deem it ready to be dosed.  I have an insulin syringe capable of measuring in the range of microlitres, and am planning tomorrow to start with .2ml for a dose of 400ug.

This hasn't been complexed with HPBCD yet, and I ordered some Beta Cyclodextrin because that's all I could find.  Is that ok to complex 25i?

Also, if it hasn't been complexed, what is the best ROA?  It's the HCL I believe.

Thank you.


----------



## Transform

If you have the salt it does not need complexing.

If it dissolves in water it does not need complexing.


----------



## Typewritermonkey

Dissolved in water, thanks!

Taking my first journey right now.  Took .2ml which is 400-450ug.  Measured out in an insulin syringe capable of measuring the ul, so 200ul were measured out and put onto watercolor paper.  Absorbed pretty well, but not as well as it did on filter paper.  A bit of the alcohol I was distributing on it came off the sides as surface tension was quickly reached due to my impatience, so I would say a very small percentage came off the sides onto the foil it was on top off.

Now it's 45 minutes in and I am starting to feel the initial effects, and a bit of nausea.  Have two close friends watching over me to ensure if anything happens, they are very responsible people who I trust as family.


Edit: Just ate another tab 50 minute after the first, making it 600ug (maximum error allows for 800ug, tops).

And I'd like to clarify all of this was done in college lab equipment, very precise.


----------



## Typewritermonkey

RobotRipping said:


> ^you will get some effects but i think it would kind of be a let down, especially if you have lots of experience tripping. 1mg is about perfect, i find it wears off quick (5 hours) so i usually dose twice in a night for 2-3mg total. I guess it depends how much is absorbed but every time i dosed around 1mg i had a satisfying trip.



What would you say the tolerance is for this for redosing?  Return to peak?  Or negligible since it gives such a long tolerance for all psychedelics.


----------



## RobotRipping

IME the tolerance is exaggerated (a bit at least), i'd usually dose twice per night. i would take the same dose twice (1mg then 6 hours later another mg); the second dose prolonged the trip at the same strength as it started and i would be tripping for about 10-12 hours total. I guess i would have 2 peaks dosing like this, the second one being more smooth and not as strong as the first but enough to keep the good effects going for another 5-6 hours. 

i redose to extend the experience, i imagine taking 400ug separately is not as strong as 800ug at first, but you can extend your trip over the 10 hour mark, rather than having an overwhelming trip for 6 hours.


----------



## Typewritermonkey

RobotRipping said:


> IME the tolerance is exaggerated (a bit at least), i'd usually dose twice per night. i would take the same dose twice (1mg then 6 hours later another mg); the second dose prolonged the trip at the same strength as it started and i would be tripping for about 10-12 hours total. I guess i would have 2 peaks dosing like this, the second one being more smooth and not as strong as the first but enough to keep the good effects going for another 5-6 hours.
> 
> i redose to extend the experience, i imagine taking 400ug separately is not as strong as 800ug at first, but you can extend your trip over the 10 hour mark, rather than having an overwhelming trip for 6 hours.


 
Thanks, ended up redosing and it definitely has a great effect, comparable to redosing LSD I'd say except for I didn't find myself mentally exhausted that quickly.


I can see the true beauty in this chemical now, it's deep and resonates with the heart.  Clear-thinking, wonderfully visual and stimulating/not stimulating at the same time make it on it's own grounds for a psychedelic if one wants to compare it to LSD/mushrooms/etc.  The come-up is definitely disconcerning, tingling/numbness in the extremeties, fast heart rate and quick onset for me made me anxious that I may have miscalculated my dose, but after the peak it all subsides into the wonderfullness of the trip.

Took 400ug to start, 200ug 50 minutes later and another 100ug at the t+1:50 mark.  All were felt, and held sublingually/bucally without to much attention to holding saliva.


Very excited for next weekend when I can try it with a dose of LSD, I think it will synergize very well.


----------



## jamie420atx

hey guys i need 25inbome help, what do i dissolve in to make a vial. alcohol,vinagar,lemon juice? i got 50mg.


----------



## twelvesevndi

^vinegar will work. just read this thread. don't skip the long posts.

a friend reported involuntary muscle contractions and "foam" in the mouth at 0,9 mg. 

remember when people got upset about the "feels totally benign" comments earlier? yehhhh don't press your luck guys.


----------



## IamMe90

Wow really? I did 1mg nasally and granted, it was a HORRIBLE intense trip, but I never had any worrying physical side effects... just an incredibly dysphoric trip. This chem still does feel pretty benign to me, but YMMV I suppose.


----------



## twelvesevndi

i wasn't there to observe first hand but clearly something bad happened.
i have on two occasions tried 0,6 mg with another 0,6 mg added at +1:30 with no physical complaints. so i didn't think much of it when this guy gave himself 0,9 instead of 0,6 mg but it ended very badly for him.

this could also be a reminder of the unreliability of a metered nasal mister.


----------



## IamMe90

Yes, it very much could be. I use insulin syringes so my measurements are fairly precise (though obviously not perfect.)


----------



## plusfourpirate

Typewritermonkey said:


> So I dissolved 500mg of 25i into 250mL of 99% EtOH to get a concentration of 2000ug/1ml. ...



in the spirit of harm reduction, ive gotta ask you this: you did weigh out the 500mg on a mg scale, eh? i noticed just a couple days ago you said it would be a couple weeks before you had your mg scale..

 the only reason i ask is my roomies and i once ordered 100mg samples of DOI, and i made a solution with mine and dosed out of it based on that number. over 30hrs after consuming what i thought was 1mg, i realized the sample they gave me may have weighed more. my roomates and i had gotten 3 100mg samples total, and upon weighing one that was untouched, it was somewhere around 170mg..

my point being sometimes theythrow in extra, or maybe are just being lazy and approximating. never trust the vendors measurements. they are often incorrect. just lookin out for ya!


----------



## Typewritermonkey

plusfourpirate said:


> in the spirit of harm reduction, ive gotta ask you this: you did weigh out the 500mg on a mg scale, eh? i noticed just a couple days ago you said it would be a couple weeks before you had your mg scale..
> 
> the only reason i ask is my roomies and i once ordered 100mg samples of DOI, and i made a solution with mine and dosed out of it based on that number. over 30hrs after consuming what i thought was 1mg, i realized the sample they gave me may have weighed more. my roomates and i had gotten 3 100mg samples total, and upon weighing one that was untouched, it was somewhere around 170mg..
> 
> my point being sometimes theythrow in extra, or maybe are just being lazy and approximating. never trust the vendors measurements. they are often incorrect. just lookin out for ya!


 
Yes, I used a lab grade mg scale capable of weighing out just to the .0000g, it has a wind-proof caseing and is bolted to the ground.  Regards to this, I weighed my material, and it weighed to 580mg.  I presume this is because it is the HCL, and the HCL represents 16-25% of the weight of the compound (making it ~500mg 25i, ~80mg HCL).  It dissolved in water too.

Even if I was wrong, and they gave me 580mg of material, my math makes it out to be that their could be a maximum concentration of ~235ug per .1ml, giving each .1ml a range of ~200-235ug which I deemed appropriate for error, as some make their solutions at 250ug.


Thanks for watching out though!  It really means a lot especially with a compound like this.  Thankfully I'm lucky enough to have access to a university lab for my research.  It was a seriously beautiful day for me today, deeply resonant with the heart and a bit of a mental/spiritual awakening.  I am excited for further trials.


On another note, with physical maladies that result from this, what is the usual ceiling dose for this?  I'd give it 2mg if sublingual or bucally, 750ug if insuffulated, but would like to know everyone else's opinions.


----------



## Transform

The HCl salt is 8% of the total mass, meaning you had an equivalent of 533mg of freebase. 

That said, I think most people have the salt, and as such, have been reporting 0.5mg as 0.5mg of salt.


----------



## Typewritermonkey

Thank you Transform.

So since you said complexing isn't necessary for the salt, I still acquired some beta cyclodextrin before I even knew if I was getting the freebase v. HCL.  Since it just got here, would it be pointless to complex my already made solution with it to increase absorption?  Or is the HCL fine on it's own like you said.

Thanks again, this thread is the only real resource for information on this compound IMO.


----------



## Transform

Nope, no need to bother if you have the salt.

Complexing serves only to make the freebase water soluble for absorption, and the salt is already soluble.


----------



## Isidor

I have now read the entire thread and I will be looking to procure some of this. 

However, I have a few questions (or rather would like some clarification and confirmation that I did not misunderstood). 

HPBCD is not needed if the form is soluble in water, correct? But HPBCD does increase bioavailability even if the form is soluble in water, correct? (at least there were claims to this in the thread). 

There have been mentions of magnetic stirrers in the thread. What are the advantages of using a magnetic stirrer compared to stirring by hand? There have also been mentions of micropipettes, and I see micropipettes of 500ul can be acquired quite cheaply on e-bay. Would this be worthwhile investment? I read micropipettes need to be calibrated - how do you go about doing this? 


The following is my own idea: Since buccal administration is a good ROA, what about adding drops to portion bags of nicotine-free snus? 

Pic: http://www.getsnus.com/images/prillor.jpg
Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus

I have looked at what various brands of nicotine-free snus contains. One brand, for example, is made of durum wheat, ginseng and various spices (not specified). Could it mix bad with 25i-NBOMe?

Any other reason why this would not be a good idea? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Typewritermonkey

Does anyone think Gingko biloba would be wise to be used to counteract the vasoconstriction pretty much every user feels?  Any other ideas to help other then cannabis, oranges and moving about?


----------



## OTGee

Is it safe to assume that a vendor is selling the HCL if it is in blotter form?


----------



## Transform

Not necessarily, but it is most likely. Ask them.


Isidor, don't bother complexing, just dissolve in vinegar or dilute HCl and use that.

I like the nicotine-free snus idea, no reason I can think of that it wouldn't work, except perhaps excessive swallowing.


----------



## psychonauss

is it OK to use 0,9% NaCl instead of pure distilled water on the solution? Will it react with 25I-NBOMe?


----------



## Transform

Nope, no problem at all.


----------



## Isidor

There's 5 ml vials available that supposedly contains 50mg 25i-NBOMe and are supposed to be "heavily complexed". Going with the ideal ratio mentioned here of a 9:1 ratio HPBCD:25i-NBOMe that would mean 450mg HPBCD. Is that amount of HPBCD soluble in 5ml?


----------



## Transform

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog...O|BRAND_KEY&N4=C0926|SIGMA&N25=0&QS=ON&F=SPEC

Sigma Aldrich reports the solubility in water as 100mg/ml.


----------



## Isidor

Thank you.


----------



## freedstar

Any input on combining 25i-NBOMe with Mushrooms? 

I was considering taking a 550ug tab buccally, and about an hour later eat 1-1.7 grams of shrooms. Never combined psychedelics much, but this seeems like it may be nice. 

Anyone?


----------



## Typewritermonkey

freedstar said:


> Any input on combining 25i-NBOMe with Mushrooms?
> 
> I was considering taking a 550ug tab buccally, and about an hour later eat 1-1.7 grams of shrooms. Never combined psychedelics much, but this seeems like it may be nice.
> 
> Anyone?


 
There have been reports of 25i taken with LSD or mescaline, and both people said they enjoyed it immensely.  I can't speak for mushrooms, but the combo of L and 25i was beautiful.


The dosages sound right, but try 25i on it's own to know your reaction to it first, and keep a sitter around.

Happy trails.


----------



## ntat

So... Tonight I put 5mg of 25i-nbome hcl into 2ml of Tobacco flavored e liquid

about 5 hits off of my e cigarette and I was at a +++

I feel like a mad genius. I just created a monster. I'm sure this has been thought of or probably even done before, but I haven't heard of it anywhere so I figured i'd share... nbome salts can be put into e liquid(Propylene Glycol) and vaporized through the atomizer of an e cigarette, to excellent effect.

probably going to stick to this roa for my personal experiences.

anyone else tried this??


----------



## skillet

Interesting, be careful though. I'd measure a dose from the liquid with a 1mL syringe and drip it on the wick, rather than fill a cartridge with it (if that's what you did). Then when you're done or smoked it all, wash the atomiser well. I don't know if you could get any buildup somehow and later get an unexpected dose, but better to be safe and wash it every time.


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

ntat said:


> So... Tonight I put 5mg of 25i-nbome hcl into 2ml of Tobacco flavored e liquid
> 
> about 5 hits off of my e cigarette and I was at a +++
> 
> I feel like a mad genius. I just created a monster. I'm sure this has been thought of or probably even done before, but I haven't heard of it anywhere so I figured i'd share... nbome salts can be put into e liquid(Propylene Glycol) and vaporized through the atomizer of an e cigarette, to excellent effect.
> 
> probably going to stick to this roa for my personal experiences.
> 
> anyone else tried this??



That sounds really awesome, although unfortunately somewhat wasteful.  I've read of people easily getting 5 +++ experiences out of that amount.  Was there still more after you took the 5 pulls?  How long were you under the influence?


----------



## ntat

well 5 pulls on it comes out to about 1 mg i believe... if my math is correct anyway, this was really just a impromptu experiement

lasted about 4 hours... i vaped more after about 2 hours only to have the effects kind of hit a plateau and only extended the experience another hour or so... this was due to the rapid tolerance you get from using nbomes, i'm sure if i had hit it more at the beginning it would have had much more increased effects.

i def think it's less wasteful than vaping it like i was previously off of tin foil with a cup to catch the vapors... a lot of the vape escaped the cup that way

I also have a tolerance from using this shit for the past few days... being able to have a 3 hour experience after work and still get to bed and wake up at a decent time has been entirely too fucking convenient for me... not good for it to be that easy. but the tolerance def makes abusing it with any kind of negative consequences nearly impossible because after about the 3rd day or so you become practically immune to it. gonna take a week break and try it next weekend with zero tolerance and see how strong it is out of the e cig then


----------



## any major dude

most people report tolerance to nbome's lasting more like 2 weeks from a single experience, might want to wait a little bit longer.


----------



## fernardthefear

When complexing with HPBCD is it really necessary to stir for 12 hours? after about two i think this shit is mixed. It looks cloudy, Butt nothing is settling on the bottom. Am I good to go?.


----------



## ntat

any major dude said:


> most people report tolerance to nbome's lasting more like 2 weeks from a single experience, might want to wait a little bit longer.



I mean... I'm okay with having some tolerance lingering on my next trial... I'm not trying to make money off of the stash I have or anything, so I'm really not too worried if some goes to waste due to having a tolerance.

I've found that even waiting 2 days, my tolerance decreases dramatically and I can get a good experience again with only a slightly higher dosage. This is just me personally though, obviously I can't speak for other people.


----------



## ntat

ntat said:


> I mean... I'm okay with having some tolerance lingering on my next trial... I'm not trying to make money off of the stash I have or anything, so I'm really not too worried if some goes to waste due to having a tolerance.
> 
> I've found that even waiting 2 days, my tolerance decreases dramatically and I can get a good experience again with only a slightly higher dosage. This is just me personally though, obviously I can't speak for other people.



Oh and something I never really understood about tolerance duration...

how does someone know the tolerance lasted for 2 weeks if they didn't dose again in that time frame? and then after 2 weeks a third dose would still have tolerance to it... if you understand what i'm saying.

if you take something. wait 2 weeks and take it again with good effects, how can you say exactly when the tolerance to it was gone? all you really know is that it was 2 weeks since the last time you did it.


----------



## Solipsis

ntat, check out this Tolerance FAQ:  http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...mp-Shroom-Tolerance-FAQ-and-Discussion-Thread

It's about mushroom & LSD tolerance mainly but more or less true for other compounds like 2C-E as well for example. But it is said by 'early pioneers' of NBOMe compounds that the graph would be stretched to double that time.

In short: when people say it takes about 2 weeks for tolerance to go away they mean to draw an arbitrary line that feels like that is enough time, not that it goes away _entirely_. Tolerance goes away gradually, not instantly or otherwise.
When you look at the graph in the FAQ you see that after about a week you only need a little more to trip and after 14 days it should be back to normal, but I don't think it fully goes back to normal, only to an extent that is immediately noticeable. But the more often you trip the more I think you will notice there is such a thing as chronic tolerance and it works in more subtle ways.


----------



## bluedolphin

I'm wondering if I might have screwed up my 25i-nbome project. I had a gram of freebase, and I wanted to put it all on blotter and make 500ug doses. So I had to convert it to HCl. At first I dissolved it in 70% Isopropyl alcohol (100ml?) and then dumped in Muriatic Acid (HCl mixed with water). This allowed the 25i-nbome to become perfectly soluable.

And plus I figured it was either by now or very soon to be 25i-nbome HCl so I could apply to blotter. My reasons for doing this are ease of dose and I prefer the buccal method.

Did I use way too much Muriatic Acid? If I did, could I have destroyed the 25i-nbome?

I am hoping this works because I did not go by molar values or whatever, and I figured more is probably better than less.

And yes I ended up with a huge amount of dissolved 25i-nbome HCl , Muriatic Acid, and 70% Isopropyl alcohol. So I lay the paper down in a similar sized tray and now it's been about 18 hours and it's juuuuust about dry. Since I oversaturated the blotter paper, it doesn't exactly look like the prettiest lay job of all time 

But it will not be sold as LSD and I will make sure each hit is roughly 500ug. Once the paper dries and I can get out the old pencil and ruler!


----------



## skillet

No, excess acid won't hurt it.


----------



## Typewritermonkey

Typewritermonkey said:


> There have been reports of 25i taken with LSD or mescaline, and both people said they enjoyed it immensely.  I can't speak for mushrooms, but the combo of L and 25i was beautiful.
> 
> 
> The dosages sound right, but try 25i on it's own to know your reaction to it first, and keep a sitter around.
> 
> Happy trails.




Gave 25i-NBOMe and LSD combined a trial run yesterday; dear lord it was one of the strongest psychedelic experiences I had.  Dosed 300ug of 25i and a large amount (too much, ~200ug) LSD.  The only problem throughout the trip was vasoconstriction, which anxiety was amplified since this was the first time I had combined them.  Looking back, there was never a real problem; the worst it got was the tips of my fingers were a bit purple and a tiny bit numbed, but never at any moment did any part of my body go fully numb (just tingling), and I was also in a pretty cold environment the entire time.


Other then the fact that it took me about 3 hours to shake the anxiety of coming up hard on both substances, it was an absolutely beautiful trip.  I meditated on the thought of an orange for a good long time heheee, and the CEV were absolutely wonderful.

Next time I'll go for 300ug 25i and 100ug, or 150ug of LSD.  This combination has potential, but I think mescaline and 25i would still be better.  Woke up today after 9 hours of sleep feeling great, better then I do at all after tripping, especially after a challenging trip.

I literally can't wait until I can try this combination next.


----------



## kylesgirl11

I hAve experienced both 25b as well as 25i, both of which are extreme hallucinogens, I HIGHLY recommend beginners or those who are mentally unstable, emotionally, chemically inbalanced, w/e to avoid high doses, and never take it alone. 25b is a very intense, extreme trip, extreme visuals!! 25i is 5x that of 25b And I would only even suggest, but never recommend, to a seasoned tripper who is capable of handing extreme and suddenly changes. It can be very unpredictable so don't expect anything, just let yourself discover what will happen, like a movie you haven't seen before! Both are made of rocks, minerals, salts, completely natural, an cant be tested!  take it via the nose, it'll hit hard and fast, 5 mins or less, the entire trip will last anywhere between 8-12 hours, the come down is LONG, and you'll be ready for it to end. It's almost impossible to sleep, I suggest eating oranges, clementines, anything with vitamin c, it makes the trip more intense, if nothing else, it may help cover the AWEFUL drip! Be open minded, don't get freaked, this stuff is truly all in your mind, makes you think on deeper levels, could cause extreme emotional changes, but let the trip take you away, don't try to control anything, it won't happen. Have fun, if ur just starting, usually .04-.06 is a good start with 25b, first time with 25i, is stay with .03-.05. Feel and be comfortable in the trip before you push the limits! If u got questions, ask! It's legal And I've been experimenting with them for a little while, amazing substance for those who can handle it!


----------



## bluedolphin

skillet said:


> No, excess acid won't hurt it.


 
Thank you very much!


----------



## Pastel

*Racetams and 25I-NBOMe*

The subject had a full 25I-NBOMe experience. Short time after that the subject started taking pramiracetam at 600 mg with alpha GPC at 200mg daily. Since then the subject took 25I twice with more then two weeks between sessions. The 25I was from the same batch of blotters as the first time. On both consecutive occasions the subject experienced none of the effects that he experienced before he started to take pramiracetam. There have been no other modifications to the subject's daily supplement diet. Has anyone experienced similar effect of racetams?


----------



## Lady Codone

This has probably been asked ad nauseum, but can 25i cause psychoactive effects when absorbed through the skin?  Because I think that's what's happening to me right now...crazy visuals, random waves of nausea/anxiety...I didn't take anything, but may have somehow ingested NBOMe after handling the blotters.  Ugh.  Please disregard if this post sounds excessively crazy, annoying, n00bish...just looking for info.


----------



## skillet

I think it's unlikely, but I can't say for sure. Let us know how long it lasts, and I hope it doesn't get too intense


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Guys I have a "problem".

I don't know if you will be able to help me but let me explain.

My friend acquired some 2C-I-NBOMe (25I), he obtained 100mg of it. He offers me a blotter that he made himself. He made the blotter in front of me but I feel quite nervous about what he did !

My friend use a quite dangerous method to dose it. He doesn't know the dosage per blotters because he actually;

1 - Dissolve his 100mg in 10 ml so I can assume it's 10mg/ml and a drop should be between 500µg- 1mg right ?

2 - He put the blotter on his desk with aluminium foil and let it dry. Then I took his blotters and I went home.

I was shocked ! He took a "virgin" blotters (Blotters that he buy on the internet) then he took the blotter (only 1 hit) and throw it into the vial   Guys that's so crazy and dangerous ! He just put one blotter in the whole vial (10 ml) which contains 100 mg of 25I-NBOMe !

I told him : Well "G" how could you know the dose with this ? It's so dangerous. He replied telling that : Maybe I don't know the dose but at least it's effective and working ! He planned to dose like this until the vial is empty !

So Bluelight...

How many µg - mg my blotter have ?? I'm looking at it with some "fears". I think it should be between 1 µg and 5mg no ?

I could actually see a small fine trace of powder (due to the evaporation, it's still quite fresh).

I think I should cut the blotter in 2, even in 4 !

People like this should not play with these chems ...

EDIT : I also should tell that the guy was doing the same with DOI... He was mixing 1 gram of DOI with a little as 10 - 15 ml (Or 50 ml don't even recall but anyway..) ! And he was dosing single blotter by throwing the blotter in the vial and taking it out with tweezers. Oh boys It was powerful !!


----------



## MattPsy

bluedolphin said:


> Thank you very much!



This might not be quite true, I left some 25C in overacidified HCl sln for too long trying to evaporate it slowly for nice crystals, and it turned purple. Translucent purple, mind, nothing too extreme, and it still works, with almost unnoticeable drop in potency, indicating that either the product itself is just as potent as the parent compound (I highly doubt this), or the small amount of unintended product is very strongly coloured. I do not know what the product might be. The best I could come up with is some cyclisation product by O-demethylation and bonding with the amine nitrogen. Either the N-2,3-dihydrobenzo[d]isoxazole (the PEA part is the same) or the 7-chloro-6-methoxy-2-(2-methoxybenzyl)-3,4-dihydro-2H-benzo[e][1,2]oxazine. If you can't visualise those structures (or have a program to help), just imagine these: the former one is where the 2-methoxy from the N-benzyl loses the methyl off the oxygen, then joins with the amine. The latter one is where the 2-methoxyl from the PEA side does the same thing.


----------



## skillet

Oh, how long did that take? I'd guess some kind of quinone from demethylation then oxidation. Phenols can discolour pretty quickly in air.


----------



## Typewritermonkey

HofmannBlotter said:


> Guys I have a "problem".
> 
> I don't know if you will be able to help me but let me explain.
> 
> My friend acquired some 2C-I-NBOMe (25I), he obtained 100mg of it. He offers me a blotter that he made himself. He made the blotter in front of me but I feel quite nervous about what he did !
> 
> My friend use a quite dangerous method to dose it. He doesn't know the dosage per blotters because he actually;
> 
> 1 - Dissolve his 100mg in 10 ml so I can assume it's 10mg/ml and a drop should be between 500µg- 1mg right ?
> 
> 2 - He put the blotter on his desk with aluminium foil and let it dry. Then I took his blotters and I went home.
> 
> I was shocked ! He took a "virgin" blotters (Blotters that he buy on the internet) then he took the blotter (only 1 hit) and throw it into the vial   Guys that's so crazy and dangerous ! He just put one blotter in the whole vial (10 ml) which contains 100 mg of 25I-NBOMe !
> 
> I told him : Well "G" how could you know the dose with this ? It's so dangerous. He replied telling that : Maybe I don't know the dose but at least it's effective and working ! He planned to dose like this until the vial is empty !
> 
> So Bluelight...
> 
> How many µg - mg my blotter have ?? I'm looking at it with some "fears". I think it should be between 1 µg and 5mg no ?
> 
> I could actually see a small fine trace of powder (due to the evaporation, it's still quite fresh).
> 
> I think I should cut the blotter in 2, even in 4 !
> 
> People like this should not play with these chems ...
> 
> EDIT : I also should tell that the guy was doing the same with DOI... He was mixing 1 gram of DOI with a little as 10 - 15 ml (Or 50 ml don't even recall but anyway..) ! And he was dosing single blotter by throwing the blotter in the vial and taking it out with tweezers. Oh boys It was powerful !!



Well blotters can hold a maximum of ~5mg, but with a chemical like this that's playing with serious fire.  Tell him the only safe way is to get a syringe, micropipette or something of the likes to measure out something per mL and only put 1mL or .5mL on each blotter so there is either 1mg or 500ug on each one.

And Lady Codone,

25i-NBOMe HCL alone is not active transdermally, but dissolved in ethanol it may be.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

But how many µg do you think my blotter have ? Still hesitating ><


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

HofmannBlotter said:


> But how many µg do you think my blotter have ? Still hesitating ><


In the interest of harm reduction, i would toss it and tell your friend he's gotta find a new way to dose this out.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Yeah that's quite dangerous... My blotter can have between 100µg and 5 mg  I can see the particles of the crystal on my blotter...


----------



## Kishka

Hello,

My bad but I don't read all the thread...

I received 10 mg of 25I-NBOMe HCL by a friend.

I wanna try it, but I don't know how to put things on blotters since I'm still a novice in psychedelics.

I already make a alcohol solution of 500µg/ml.

I would like to know if it will be active this way but can I took 1 ml of my solution, put it in my mouth and hold the solution for 30 minutes in my mouth till the effects kick ?

It is ok to do like that ?

(I also hope that I don't fucked up the chemical by dissolving it with 40% white vodka...)


----------



## Transform

That would work fine, volumetric dosing is much easier than trying to lay it onto blotter.

It isn't ruined by combination with vodka, and 30 mins should be fine for absorption.


----------



## IamMe90

25i is pretty nice at low doses. I tried 300ug nasal and it was light but noticeable and easy going. Music enhancement was nice and visually it was reminiscent of maybe ~18mg of 2ci. The DOI type quality of the visuals didn't come out at this dose.


----------



## asdfasdf4r

I am looking into buying 50-250 mg, which is quite a lot in my measurements. I am thinking of keeping it for 5-10 years.

How long does the HCL salt ( and/or freebase ) approx remain stable in a solution of EtOH or Water? I think storeing it this way for such a long time would not be that good. Suggestions? Blotter? But I've read that nasal application is superior to buccal... Any help with this one?


----------



## Kishka

I heard that the powder can be keep longer than your lifetime. So my bet is to keep your powder dry  

I think it's the same storage as Phenethylamines (2C-X) so they will last decades or longer than your lifetime without degradation.

Not so long ago I tried 2C-E from a 4 YEARS OLD batch (A 2008 batch from my friend). I only took 8 mg for my first time and it was hella' strong !!


----------



## blackskirt

Kishka said:


> I heard that the powder can be keep longer than your lifetime. So my bet is to keep your powder dry
> I think it's the same storage as Phenethylamines (2C-X) so they will last decades or longer than your lifetime without degradation.


This is not true - I've known people with years-old batches of 2C-E, it had been stored at room temperature. They didn't specify whether it was the freebase or hcl salt, but it had yellowed a bit from oxidization and required about twice the amount of material to feel effects.


----------



## Kishka

Do you have any proof of that ?

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=1768

Look at the link 

EDIT : MAPS has a supply of MDMA for research that was manufactured by Dr. David Nichols and subsequently stored in a safe at Purdue University. When Dr. Nichols tested this supply for purity in 1994 -- eight years after it was synthesized -- it showed no indication of deterioration.

If stored in a cool, dry and closed container such as an amber glass vial (avoid excessive heat, light or moisture), its safe to assume that MDMA and 2C-T-7 will both last longer than you will.

If you have the HCL salt it will be pretty damn stable. Anyway the 99% 4 years old 2C-E batch is still potent, even at 8 mg  And my friend keep it at room temperature in a mettalic box


----------



## blackskirt

Kishka said:


> http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=1768
> If you have the HCL salt it will be pretty damn stable. Anyway the 99% 4 years old 2C-E batch is still potent, even at 8 mg  And my friend keep it at room temperature in a mettalic box


noted! i wonder if that friends batch was impure


----------



## Kishka

No my friend batch is still damn active ! 8mg gave me a huge powerful trip  And it was from 2008 batch ! Hope it helps


----------



## blackskirt

oh no i meant my friends' batch that yellowed in storage


----------



## Kishka

The discolaration is normal, the potency should remains the same


----------



## Transform

Yep, most drugs are very stable when stored properly, and phenethylamines are no exception. Kept dry and dark they'll have no problem outliving the owner.


----------



## asdfasdf4r

Of course, dry storing is always the best solution. But how do I dose this powerful substance if it is in dry state? It would be very interesting how long it will stay active when kept in solution.

One final question? Is nasal really that supperior to buccal? Or is buccal administration complexed with HPBCD just as good? (Then i could put it on some blotter paper)

Many thanks


----------



## OTGee

I got my 25I-NBOMe HCL blotters today and everything looks good. They are 500ucg each but I can still see a few crystals on the blotters. Some last newbie questions just so I know it all whenever me and my fiancee want to take them. How should I handle the blotters? This is my first time with genuine blotters and not just sugar cubes so I feel very psychedelic haha. How long should the blotters be placed in mouth for? It seems people go from 20 - 60 mins. If I tore a blotter in half could I smoke it or would it not burn/vape properly if its on the paper, i don't like smoking things such as these as well as I find you always waste half of your shit. Thanks for your help everyone, looking forward to trying out 25I as the 2c-x's were already illegal were I live when I started taking psychedelics so hopefully it will be something a little different.


----------



## Kishka

asdfasdf4r said:


> Of course, dry storing is always the best solution. But how do I dose this powerful substance if it is in dry state? It would be very interesting how long it will stay active when kept in solution.
> 
> One final question? Is nasal really that supperior to buccal? Or is buccal administration complexed with HPBCD just as good? (Then i could put it on some blotter paper)
> 
> Many thanks



It will last many years in solutions don't worry, they are stable like most PEA.


----------



## Help?!?!

Finally going to test this one out soon enough. Fairly excited.


----------



## Tranced

blackskirt said:


> noted! i wonder if that friends batch was impure


 
Could it not be that your friends batched simply wasn't stored correctly and was subjected to the air? 

This happened to some of my 2c-b and it's turned pink, though it's just as pure.


----------



## IamMe90

I have to chime in that I think buccal administration is far superior to nasal admin. Nasal kind of defeats the point of 25i, which is that it's a nonanxiogenic, clean trip - when you nasally administer it, the bodyload is increased and the jarring come up can be anxiety producing. Buccal can be just as visual as nasal when dosed high enough but the trip is more positive and less nauseating. Definitely go with buccal my 2cents


----------



## Help?!?!

IamMe90 said:


> I have to chime in that I think buccal administration is far superior to nasal admin. Nasal kind of defeats the point of 25i, which is that it's a nonanxiogenic, clean trip - when you nasally administer it, the bodyload is increased and the jarring come up can be anxiety producing. Buccal can be just as visual as nasal when dosed high enough but the trip is more positive and less nauseating. Definitely go with buccal my 2cents


Good to know, I would assume from this that the come up from buccal must be pretty gentle and not to jarring then? 2c-I was never much of a problem but it was never the most fun ride up either.


----------



## Kishka

IamMe90 said:


> I have to chime in that I think buccal administration is far superior to nasal admin. Nasal kind of defeats the point of 25i, which is that it's a nonanxiogenic, clean trip - when you nasally administer it, the bodyload is increased and the jarring come up can be anxiety producing. Buccal can be just as visual as nasal when dosed high enough but the trip is more positive and less nauseating. Definitely go with buccal my 2cents



Since I can't dose on blotters (because I don't know how to do it). If I want to take a drop of liquid (2C-I-NBOMe) in buccal ? I just need to hold the drop of liquid in my mouth ?


----------



## OTGee

If 2C-I is the same as 25I it will have to be the HCL for it work like that. If it isn't HCL you will have to buy HPBCD and mix them. I don't think there water soluble enless there HCL. I smoked a blotter of 500ucg earlier as the short but decent trip sounded good. THe blotter didn't burn that well so i probably wasted a lot but whatever, i felt some effects and could see what the threshold was all about. Next time I think I will dose 1mg Buccally to get its full potential. Mixed it with some synth cannabinoids, nice body euphoria with the 25I.


----------



## twelvesevndi

kishka, i beleive someone in this thread mentions that blotter is best placed in the upper gum but the liquid solutions are best administered under the tongue. i can't comment from experience except to say that blotter to the upper lip definitely works. 



IamMe90 said:


> I have to chime in that I think buccal administration is far superior to nasal admin. Nasal kind of defeats the point of 25i, which is that it's a nonanxiogenic, clean trip - when you nasally administer it, the bodyload is increased and the jarring come up can be anxiety producing. Buccal can be just as visual as nasal when dosed high enough but the trip is more positive and less nauseating. Definitely go with buccal my 2cents



thanks for that. I have been wondering about this but haven't had time to try 25i buccally. 
i tried 25d nasally for the first time last weekend and did not like it as much as when i tried the blotter. both experiences at ~800 ug.
also on this note: 1 mg 25C in one buccal dose proved to be quite anxiogenic... so i'm interested to experiment further.


----------



## IamMe90

Kishka said:


> Since I can't dose on blotters (because I don't know how to do it). If I want to take a drop of liquid (2C-I-NBOMe) in buccal ? I just need to hold the drop of liquid in my mouth ?



It's really not hard at all to make your own blotters and I find this method of administration much easier for buccal admin. Just buy some 140lb water color paper from an art store, cut out some squares and use your measurement tool to lay it on the paper. But yes, if this is somehow not possible, you can hold the solution under the tongue or between the cheeks by itself.


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

twelvesevndi said:


> kishka, i beleive someone in this thread mentions that blotter is best placed in the upper gum but the liquid solutions are best administered under the tongue. i can't comment from experience except to say that blotter to the upper lip definitely works.



I'm sure that either way works, but can you find where you read this in the thread.  I believe I remember reading tregar saying that under the tongue is the way to go.  Judging from the massive lingual and sublingual veins and their many branches visble on the ventral aspect of the tongue, I would say sublingual is better.  At least in terms of rate of absorption.  Placement here could perhaps increase salivation, and cause one to swallow some portion of unabsorbed 25I.  

Like I said though, both would work.


----------



## kong

IamMe90 said:


> It's really not hard at all to make your own blotters and I find this method of administration much easier for buccal admin. Just buy some 140lb water color paper from an art store, cut out some squares and use your measurement tool to lay it on the paper. But yes, if this is somehow not possible, you can hold the solution under the tongue or between the cheeks by itself.



Only lay one dose at a time if you're going this route.  Unless you know exactly how to lay blotter laying multiple doses is a recipe for disaster with this compound.  

Hopefully no one is foolish enough to explain to the unwashed masses how to correctly lay 50 sheets or similar.  We don't need this stuff ending up on blotter sold as lsd.  There are enough people doing that sort of thing already.  I hope I'm not coming across as elitist because I want everyone to have access to the chemicals they want and the knowledge to take them safely.  

There is no need for blotter.  Evaporate a known dose on glass, scrap and place under your tongue.  It's that simple.  

When converting freebase to the hcl salt just add hcl a drop at a time until everything goes into solution.  Allow plenty of time between drops for this to occur.  A little goes a long way with hcl.


----------



## OTGee

So I finally have a pre-planned time to take 25I this sunday morning. I havent tripped in a while so I am not sure what to expect especially as ive only tripped on a few substances. I dont know how to prepare, im taking 1mg buccaly early in the morning. SHould I just prepare to chill, some music, a movie or tv show to watch, some good talk. I will be with my fiancee although she will not be tripping, this will be kinda weird as its the first time ive taken a more then very small dose without her tripping on an identical dose usually as she is a lot smaller then me. Or should I prepare for a hardcore trip? I can handle myself quite well, not worried about visuals just mental loops / anxiety + bodyload etc.

Will it be hard for me to converse with my fiancee? if she's sober although she will be smoking grass. I will also be smoking grass + synthetic cannabinoids through out the trip. I will just be hanging out in my room. Will it have much of an afterglo?, how long until im back to baseline on average? Any info on how I should prepare would be great, looking forward o this as ive been looking for something as visual as possible.


----------



## TheAppleCore

Don't bother preparing. It's a great psychedelic for just fooling around, enjoying the visuals, and whatever else you happen to find yourself doing.  Childlike wonder and curiosity is one of the *-NBOMes' specialties, and it's hard to cultivate that sort of experience if you're adhering to a strict preconceived plan. You need spontaneity.

That's not to imply that it can't get very intense, in a very good way!


----------



## freedstar

OTGee said:


> So I finally have a pre-planned time to take 25I this sunday morning. I havent tripped in a while so I am not sure what to expect especially as ive only tripped on a few substances. I dont know how to prepare, im taking 1mg buccaly early in the morning. SHould I just prepare to chill, some music, a movie or tv show to watch, some good talk. I will be with my fiancee although she will not be tripping, this will be kinda weird as its the first time ive taken a more then very small dose without her tripping on an identical dose usually as she is a lot smaller then me. Or should I prepare for a hardcore trip? I can handle myself quite well, not worried about visuals just mental loops / anxiety + bodyload etc.
> 
> Will it be hard for me to converse with my fiancee? if she's sober although she will be smoking grass. I will also be smoking grass + synthetic cannabinoids through out the trip. I will just be hanging out in my room. Will it have much of an afterglo?, how long until im back to baseline on average? Any info on how I should prepare would be great, looking forward o this as ive been looking for something as visual as possible.


 

Make sure you hold your saliva in your mouth for atleast 20-30 minutes to let it absorb. I usually try and rinse with mouthwash and brush my gums with a dry toothbrush, not sure how much good that'll do though. 

It won't be anything hardcore. I never feel any negative bodyload and haven't heard of any from friends. Music is very good. I would start the trip without any grass. Give it 1.5 - 2 hours. The state of mind is usually so clear headed it's worth exploring without fogging it by getting stoned. It's unlike a lot of psychedelics. That's not to say it isin't a good thing, weed synergizes well with it and will kick the intensity up a lot and that sounds like where you wanna be.  

I'd say I could handle myself better at a party on 1mg buccal of 25i rather then a couple blunts. Theres no thought loops or paranoia. All just imo of course 

Happy trails


----------



## IamMe90

kong said:


> Only lay one dose at a time if you're going this route.  Unless you know exactly how to lay blotter laying multiple doses is a recipe for disaster with this compound.
> 
> Hopefully no one is foolish enough to explain to the unwashed masses how to correctly lay 50 sheets or similar.  We don't need this stuff ending up on blotter sold as lsd.  There are enough people doing that sort of thing already.  I hope I'm not coming across as elitist because I want everyone to have access to the chemicals they want and the knowledge to take them safely.
> 
> There is no need for blotter.  Evaporate a known dose on glass, scrap and place under your tongue.  It's that simple.
> 
> When converting freebase to the hcl salt just add hcl a drop at a time until everything goes into solution.  Allow plenty of time between drops for this to occur.  A little goes a long way with hcl.



I was explaining the general process of laying blotter, I wasn't implying bulk laying or single laying. the person obviously wanted to lay blotters for personal use, and that is MUCH easier to do than the evaporation technique you just mentioned. If you have the tools to accurately measure out 25i in solution (which you should if you're going to even BOTHER with this chemical) then laying on blotter is just as easy.


----------



## MattPsy

skillet: It took a week to change colour, and when it happened, it happened quickly. Maybe autocatalytic?


----------



## kylesgirl11

theotherside said:


> As it turns out I will getting this one first as far as the NBOMe's are concerned. Would like to wait and try it at the beach soon but will probably do a few allergy tests leading up to it. High hopes for this one.


If you have never taken 25c, 25b, 25I, DO NOT TAKE THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME OUTSIDE, OR IN PUBLIC. these have intense visuals and you can easily lose yourself. You eyes become huge, and your skin can get either a green hue or if your getting warm, of course kinda red! its obvious looking right at someone that they aren't quite.... 'right' (or whatever the sober public thinks is wrong). Its very strong and hits pretty quickly without any warning or any noticeable come-up. it could make you sick for a second if you have motion sickness, and you don't want to throw up in public, draws attention to the fact you aren't 'right'. its a very opening and wakening experience, its an associative so you can share an awesome experience with those who are also enjoying the experience.* Fare warning, for those who are having a bad trip,* the mind is completely open on this stuff so as much as it sucks, these people do need to be watched and kinda babysat, you really dont want stupid shit to happen .... 
Ive seen the good and bad with these psychedelics, dont underestimate them, no matter how often your try them. Just because you've done it before, guarantee, you will NEVER have the same experience, no matter how hard you try... actually, best advice, dont try, itll be okay, JUST. LET. GO.


----------



## Kishka

I have the HCL salt, I don't know how to put blotters (and I don't want too for the moment). I just mix 10mg/10ml from now. Just waiting the right occasion to trip


----------



## clubberdude

I absolutely love the name "Solaris". I'm pretty much sold on that alone. Seriously though, I'm hoping this compound will be hyper-analytical like DOC. Definitely looks like it has that potential. On a slight tangent, I don't find DOC generally visual at all (feels more like noise on this compound), its almost completely a mind trip, which has taken me far deeper than any other psychedelic drug (Phenethylamine/Tryptamine/Erogloid/Arylcyclohexylamine or combination thereof). I'm wondering if comparable or possibly greater depths could be achieved with 25I. Time will tell (well a month or so...).


----------



## kong

IamMe90 said:


> I was explaining the general process of laying blotter, I wasn't implying bulk laying or single laying. the person obviously wanted to lay blotters for personal use, and that is MUCH easier to do than the evaporation technique you just mentioned. If you have the tools to accurately measure out 25i in solution (which you should if you're going to even BOTHER with this chemical) then laying on blotter is just as easy.


 
I wasn't suggesting you were, my apologies..my point was directed at no one in particular


----------



## OTGee

Tried 25I-NBOMe yesterday morning, kind of a let down but still very interesting. Bodyload was fucking amazing, my favorite out of all psychedelics. Visuals, was expecting more but maybe il just have to dose higher. It also lasted a little longer then expected with me still tripping a few hours after it should have come down. Very sparkly and great purple visuals. Felt very extraterestrial and alien, reminded me of acid while also reminding me of all the new RC psych's. Will wait a while before trying again and try a better set + setting but its a very interesting substance, good experiance overall. May write up a trip report if I get the time.


----------



## Kishka

Does the Bodyload is rougher than 2C-E / DOC ?

I also know it feels weird to ask that, but if I want to dose on my blotters (I have 1/4' blotter art from Internet).
I need to know how many ml my blotters can hold, then mix the solution with the chemicals. Pouring the blotters and dried them ?


----------



## sheekle

*Buccal Administration? 25i-Nbome*

I've heard that the best way to take complexed 25i-NBOME blotters is through the buccall route. I've heard that the upper teeth is the best. I'm still a bit confused as to what this means.

So the blotter is placed on your gums at the crevice where the gums and cheek meet on the top? Does it matter what part of your teeth? The front near the lips, the side where the cheek is more?  


Also, is it THAT big of a difference whether or not you don't swallow your spit for thirty minutes? 
So


----------



## nAON

I don't think it makes a huge difference as to where in your mouth you hold it, seems to be mostly personal preference whether under tongue or on gums, though under tongue you're more likely to be swallowing it. 

Not too familiar with 2CI-NBOME so not sure on the specific advantages/disadvantages of oral vs. sublingual, but in general you wanna avoid swallowing it, as it may be destroyed or poorly absorbed in the stomach. Through gums, it directly enters bloodstream and avoids 1st-pass metabolism.


----------



## effie

This belongs in Psychedelic drugs - check the BDD gudelines in my sig - so moving it there 

BDD > PD


----------



## Solipsis

Merging this into the Big & Dandy 25I-NBOMe thread, doesn't need to have it's own thread.

I don't think it's extremely important where you hold it but what I would do is first rinse my mouth with mouthwash. It helps remove a layer of dead skin cells on top of the inside of your cheek and the alcohol in it helps dilate the blood vessels. Then if you hold blotter paper in the crevice I think the purpose is that it sits there comfortably without moving too much but I am not necessarily convinced that it is also ideal for absorption. I think you can move it around in your mouth and let the blotter soak with saliva, then spread the saliva all over the inside of the mouth with your tongue and stick the blotter back in the crevice for a while, and repeat.
All in all it should only matter marginally, but not swallowing the saliva IS quite important. You see the drug is not active orally and destroyed in the stomach so all saliva that has dissolved drug in it is wasted when swallowed. Do not swallow for as long as possible. I'm not sure if it's known how long is long enough but I see people holding it for 30-40 minutes. Maybe check posts by NBOMe veterans like Erny if they have discovered a trend that indicates how long of a time is enough to keep the blotter and saliva in your mouth.

I myself take the compounds snorted, methodically cut with mannitol so please do not consider me an experience-expert on the matter but I do know enough theory to tell you the above.


----------



## rocknroll702

OTGee said:


> Tried 25I-NBOMe yesterday morning, kind of a let down but still very interesting. Bodyload was fucking amazing, my favorite out of all psychedelics. Visuals, was expecting more but maybe il just have to dose higher. It also lasted a little longer then expected with me still tripping a few hours after it should have come down. Very sparkly and great purple visuals. Felt very extraterestrial and alien, reminded me of acid while also reminding me of all the new RC psych's. Will wait a while before trying again and try a better set + setting but its a very interesting substance, good experiance overall. May write up a trip report if I get the time.



does this mean that there was NO bodyload?  Im not understanding?


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## rocknroll702

also is 25i-nbome considered mescaline? what is mescaline if this isnt it?  

is this what johnny depp ate supposedly in fear and loathing to see all the lizards etc? lol


----------



## LSDreamer13

rocknroll702 said:


> also is 25i-nbome considered mescaline? what is mescaline if this isnt it?
> 
> is this what johnny depp ate supposedly in fear and loathing to see all the lizards etc? lol


Johnny Depp's character was on LSD at that part.

And no, 25i-nbome is NOT mescaline.


----------



## rocknroll702

about the body load?  is there any? or is it free of body load?  and ive read the dangers invovled with 25i im thinking 25c is much much safer and shorter lasting as well


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## LSDreamer13

Have not tried 25c but I want to.... As far as the body load- I find it different for everyone. I've heard of no body load, but I've also heard of terrible body loads that made part of the trip almost intolerable. Personally, it was never much for me.


----------



## mozokev

mescaline is 3,4,5-Trimethoxyphenethylamine. just keep looking at different chemical structures and it'll start coming together


----------



## greenmeanies

rocknroll, have you never taken a psychedelic?

Some people get a terrible "body load" from certain psychedelics--- they may feel like the "LSD myths" about brain bleeding or spinal poisoning are physically manifesting, "I can feel a tumor in my stomach" or "i'm dying". Of course, most of these fears are completely unfounded and turn out to be a trapped pocket of gas in the lower intestine  Many people will tell you that these types of body issues are often psychosomatic, which means that if you are in a negative mindset you will feel negativity in your body as well. The mind creates the pain.

On the other hand, "amazing bodyload" to me sounds like the tingly, skin-multiplying physical hallucination that I've gotten from 2C-E and similar drugs. One time I took 2C-E fairly late in the evening, and tried to go to bed while still tripping. I could feel each of my skin cells touching the blanket in a million different places, and there was a beautiful synaesthetic visual like the strumming of a harp each time I moved my body. I spent the rest of the night writhing around on the bed reveling in the sensations that my body could produce from simple movements.

A different time on 2C-T-7, I tried laying down and closing my eyes because the peak was coming on strong. I visualized my spine as a series of interconnected laser beams swirling around each other. As I focused on slowing my breathing, I saw the laser beams all begin to merge into a single bright line. The slower my breath got, the brighter this visual became. I couldn't maintain it for long as I burst out laughing at the incredible sensations of noise and silence that pulsed through my veins. With the laughter, my visual and physical hallucinations burst into a cacophany of light and noise, until I slowed my breathing again and centered everything.

A psychedelic that has zero effect on physical or tactile sensations would be IMO pointless.


----------



## oustedmacaque

I don't have a ton of experience with psychedelics, but I've noticed that my ideal dosage is closer to 1-1.5mg.  My friend, however, did 2mg once and flipped the fuck out, whereas when I did that amount it was a bit too strong but not insane.


----------



## kabooom

nevermind


----------



## jamie420atx

can somebody please tell me an exact tek or procedure to make a vial using 25-i nbome and 25c-nbome i have syringes for cc's and ml's. i have my milligram scale. i just dont wanna f!ck up my product. any info is appreciated


----------



## Folley

If you dont already know, than you really SHOULD NOT be fucking with this stuff

just saying...


----------



## Ralt

jamie420atx said:


> can somebody please tell me an exact tek or procedure to make a vial using 25-i nbome and 25c-nbome i have syringes for cc's and ml's. i have my milligram scale. i just dont wanna f!ck up my product. any info is appreciated



To make a vial? You dump in a solvent, then you dump in your 25I. I cry that someone who doesn't even know how to do this has obtained some 25I. I personally urge you to dump it all down the drain before you kill yourself, a friend, or bring more attention to 25I. I'm fucking serious too, the math you are talking about needing to make a solution is called fractions, if you can't even do this, please for gods sake, throw these drugs away.


----------



## jamie420atx

ok, obviously you "dump in a solvent". what solvent. anybody want to give a not so holier than thou answer to my question.


----------



## jamie420atx

isnt that what the fuck the big and dandy nbome thread is for. ass.


----------



## Propyl Power

^no, but it's what the Big and Dandy Liquid Measurement Thread is for  
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/286239-The-Big-amp-Dandy-Liquid-Measurement-thread


----------



## IamMe90

Come on guys, the guy has a mg scale, CC syringes and clearly knows how to make a solution, he just wants info on what specifically to use as the solvent. No reason to be dicks here... that's more than I can say for a _lot_ of people I know who use 25i. 



jamie420atx said:


> ok, obviously you "dump in a solvent". what solvent. anybody want to give a not so holier than thou answer to my question.



This depends on what form of the 25i you have, do you have the freebase or HCl? If you have the freebase it's going to be a little more complicated because of the low solubility and inability to absorb efficiently through membrane. You'd have to either convert it to a salt (I think most people use acetic or muratic acid? Never had to do this myself because I have HCl) or complex it with cyclodextrin to increase solubility. 

If you have the HCl, any kind of bacteriostatic solution will work - personally I use 80 proof vodka, which allows me to concentrate the solution quite a bit (I use a 15mg/ml solution) and prevents bacterial growth. However, I would not suggest concentrating the solution quite so much unless you have precise measuring tools. I have 1cc insulin syringes which allow me to measure by the .01mL, so I can titrate out increments of 150ug. I've also used volumetric dosing a number of times, so even if you have access to such syringes, I would still concentrate the solution less to allow for error in measurement if you're new to this.


----------



## freedstar

I recently shared an eighth of Mushrooms with a friend an hour after taking 2 tabs of 25I-NBOME. Wasn't anything mind blowing for me, I took two tabs 8 days before which definitely gave me some tolerence which was expected. Friend had a good time, first experience with Mushrooms and tripping at a beatiful place.


----------



## mrdqb

i think you can redose this stuff in about 2-3 days. I'm pretty sure I redosed succesfully after only a couple days. But yes it really sucks that you cannot 
Redose everday.. Anybody know why that is?? this stuff is good though,. pretty much the only rc that is any good right now except for mxe but that is a different story..


----------



## IamMe90

mrdqb said:


> i think you can redose this stuff in about 2-3 days. I'm pretty sure I redosed succesfully after only a couple days. But yes it really sucks that you cannot
> Redose everday.. Anybody know why that is?? this stuff is good though,. pretty much the only rc that is any good right now except for mxe but that is a different story..



Uh... no psychedelic aside from DMT can be redosed every day. This stuff certainly cannot be dosed every 2-3 days without elevating the dose. It should be abundantly clear why you can't redose this stuff every day 8)


----------



## TheAppleCore

^ Yeah. Even people that get into daily DMT blastoffs tend to ultimately ruin their relationship with DMT, claiming that it's an evil or dangerous substance. You don't want to overdo psychedelics, in general.

Although, on a somewhat related note, last time I did 25C-NBOMe, I took my first dose in the morning, and sustained the high all day by continuously redosing. My last dose was at about 4:30 P.M., I think, and it was probably a good 70-80% as strong as the first dose. So, all in all, tolerance developed over a day of tripping wasn't too bad.


----------



## Seyer

greenmeanies said:


> On the other hand, "amazing bodyload" to me sounds like the tingly, skin-multiplying physical hallucination that I've gotten from 2C-E and similar drugs. One time I took 2C-E fairly late in the evening, and tried to go to bed while still tripping. I could feel each of my skin cells touching the blanket in a million different places, and there was a beautiful synaesthetic visual like the strumming of a harp each time I moved my body. I spent the rest of the night writhing around on the bed reveling in the sensations that my body could produce from simple movements.


That *exactly* how I feel on 2C-E. When I trip, I always end up in bed under my blanket overwhelemed in amazing, jaw clenching, euphoria.



jamie420atx said:


> isnt that what the fuck the big and dandy nbome thread is for. ass.





Propyl Power said:


> ^no, but it's what the Big and Dandy Liquid Measurement Thread is for
> http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/286239-The-Big-amp-Dandy-Liquid-Measurement-thread


LOL.


Just got my 25i today. Cant wait to try out a 1mg dose this weekend :D


----------



## OTGee

After taking 1mg my brain had a very very unhealthy frying feeling to it. Felt not like damage but like a headache + fog. Kind of like I could feel way too much 5-HT2A acitivity or something. Just telling people to be careful with this, my experiance with this, cannabinoids and a few others RC's really made me open my eyes to the fact that these are normally pretty complex chemicals that in 20 years everyone could be going blind from them. Stay safe everyone, although the 25I-NBOMe body load and relaxed headspace is divine!!


----------



## Seyer

It may just be you. I know a few who have gone up to 2mg insufflated (2x 1mg doses) and another who accidentally (dont know how) dosed 4mg. All reported to be completely fine with mild, positive after effects such as great head space and light tracers.


----------



## TheAppleCore

LSD has a worse aftereffect than 25I, IME. For me they both have very similar effects of depression and anhedonia after the high wears off, but the effect is more prominent with LSD. Then again, it seems like LSD is naturally more positive and euphoric, whereas 25I is more emotionally neutral during the high. What goes up must come down I guess.


----------



## IamMe90

TheAppleCore said:


> ^ Yeah. Even people that get into daily DMT blastoffs tend to ultimately ruin their relationship with DMT, claiming that it's an evil or dangerous substance. You don't want to overdo psychedelics, in general.
> 
> Although, on a somewhat related note, last time I did 25C-NBOMe, I took my first dose in the morning, and sustained the high all day by continuously redosing. My last dose was at about 4:30 P.M., I think, and it was probably a good 70-80% as strong as the first dose. So, all in all, tolerance developed over a day of tripping wasn't too bad.



I was able to keep my self tripping strongly all night on 25i early in my experiments with the substance (nasally), but I did have to keep elevating the dose significantly. It's just, at the time of dosing, it didn't seem like such a significant elevation since I have so much of the damn stuff and it didn't take much expense to procure it (I'm not going into specific pricing don't worry haha).


----------



## Queky

First post.

Never been much of a poster. But I felt the need to share some experiences with this substance.
Having tried LSD a few times I agree with people who say this has a lot of similarities, but also some differences. The biggest advantage being sociability even on higher doses and desire to party, while on LSD it's more of a "deeper insight" experience.

I also hate the tolerance like many of you here.

While trying 25i for the first time, I felt extreme desire to redose more and more on the same day, just to see the how far I can go. The visuals are amazingly vivid and colorful, almost no body load, great euphoria, a bit MDMA-like, just without touchy-feely aspect. Though it seems no matter the dose, there is a point where even redosing 1mg every hour brings nothing new to the experience, only the comedown gets more worse.

I guess It's best to take higher initial dose and resist the urge to do more.

The only downside is this tolerance thing and quite intense stimulation. It's impossible to sleep unless you wait till the effects are greatly diminished. Other than waiting it's good to have some downers to put you to sleep.

Having consumed about 7mg in one day (about 500mcg initial dose and kept redosing every few hours), the OEVs are completely gone the next day, but CEVs are present even after 3-4days. The dreams are vivid though. Nasal injection of 1mg the next day gave no effects at all.
It's pointless to trip on 25i more often than once a week from my experience, but preferably once every two weeks.

Another interesting fact:
25i has an *extreme* cross-tolerance with DMT. 

After 2 days. Smoking 100mg DMT, I experienced nothing at all, aside from strange eye-twitching effect.
After 5 days. Decided to smoke 50mg, but since it only gave threshold effects I immediately proceeded to 3x50mg more. While this amount would normally get me a breakthrough 4 times, because of cross-tolerance I couldn't even get close to it. At that point I remember swearing out loud in my room and being honestly mad on the 25i-nbome molecule for preventing me from traveling to hyperspace. 
After 7 days. Did unknown amount. Two lungfulls of smoke, but didn't breakthrough. 
I'm estimating at least 2 weeks will be needed to get over this cross-tolerance thing.

I bet this also applies to all other tryptamines at least, possibly all serotonergic compounds.

25i is very interesting chemical and will definitely attract unwanted attention soon. It has a potential of an amazing party drug.


----------



## Seyer

TheAppleCore said:


> LSD has a worse aftereffect than 25I, IME. For me they both have very similar effects of depression and anhedonia after the high wears off, but the effect is more prominent with LSD. Then again, it seems like LSD is naturally more positive and euphoric, whereas 25I is more emotionally neutral during the high. What goes up must come down I guess.


After LSD I just feel spacey and pretty drained. The opportunity to sample my 25i has risen today, so Ill be dosing later on today


----------



## Cz_x

I only really started looking into psychedelics for the visuals, probably going to get a fair bit of hate for posting this but that's the only really thing i look for in them. After reading up a bit I decided that 2c-b would be a decent starting point and I was right. I'm just curious how this compares in comparison to 2c-b as that's the only psychedelic I've tried and from what I've heard that's fairly mediocre (From people comparing it to LSD nevertheless). The more I read about 25I-NBOMe the more it sounds like i'd enjoy it, only problem is I can only get it in blotters. To my knowledge these aren't from a reputable (or un-reputable gathering what I've read in this thread) RC vendor but from a source I've not used before, I'm told that they're 600mcg blotters. Unfortunately I don't have access to 25I-NBOMe in powder /hcl form and even if I did my scales aren't close to being accurate enough and I feel the paraphernalia associated with volumetric measuring would be unsuitable. Just wondering what the best way to take the blotters will be. Chances are I'll be trying it in a festival campsite so cutting it up, putting it in a capsule and plugging it seems pretty inconvenient. If i were to put it between my gum and cheek would I still get noticeable effects?


----------



## lolusername

Cz_x said:


> I only really started looking into psychedelics for the visuals, probably going to get a fair bit of hate for posting this but that's the only really thing i look for in them. After reading up a bit I decided that 2c-b would be a decent starting point and I was right. I'm just curious how this compares in comparison to 2c-b as that's the only psychedelic I've tried and from what I've heard that's fairly mediocre (From people comparing it to LSD nevertheless). The more I read about 25I-NBOMe the more it sounds like i'd enjoy it, only problem is I can only get it in blotters. To my knowledge these aren't from a reputable (or un-reputable gathering what I've read in this thread) RC vendor but from a source I've not used before, I'm told that they're 600mcg blotters. Unfortunately I don't have access to 25I-NBOMe in powder /hcl form and even if I did my scales aren't close to being accurate enough and I feel the paraphernalia associated with volumetric measuring would be unsuitable. Just wondering what the best way to take the blotters will be. Chances are I'll be trying it in a festival campsite so cutting it up, putting it in a capsule and plugging it seems pretty inconvenient. If i were to put it between my gum and cheek would I still get noticeable effects?



Not to derail the thread, but, if you are looking for a psychedelic that will visually kick your arse, I'd suggest looking into some 2c-e.


----------



## Seyer

2C-E is very visual, but I *personally *find 2C-B more visual. I seem to have never the crazy trips a lot of people do from 2C-E. Ive gone up to 90mg and was just having an insanely intense experience, while a good friend had complete ego death at 45mg. Everyone is different when it comes to the 2C's (well, any substance really), but I see a huge difference with the 2C's person to person.

/derailing


----------



## IamMe90

Cz_x said:


> I only really started looking into psychedelics for the visuals, probably going to get a fair bit of hate for posting this but that's the only really thing i look for in them. After reading up a bit I decided that 2c-b would be a decent starting point and I was right. I'm just curious how this compares in comparison to 2c-b as that's the only psychedelic I've tried and from what I've heard that's fairly mediocre (From people comparing it to LSD nevertheless). The more I read about 25I-NBOMe the more it sounds like i'd enjoy it, only problem is I can only get it in blotters. To my knowledge these aren't from a reputable (or un-reputable gathering what I've read in this thread) RC vendor but from a source I've not used before, I'm told that they're 600mcg blotters. Unfortunately I don't have access to 25I-NBOMe in powder /hcl form and even if I did my scales aren't close to being accurate enough and I feel the paraphernalia associated with volumetric measuring would be unsuitable. Just wondering what the best way to take the blotters will be. Chances are I'll be trying it in a festival campsite so cutting it up, putting it in a capsule and plugging it seems pretty inconvenient. If i were to put it between my gum and cheek would I still get noticeable effects?



Hold 2 between the gum and cheek and I promise you will get plenty of visual effects. 

But yes, I'll echo the sentiment that 2c-e sounds more up your alley if you're looking for visuals.


----------



## DexterMeth

^What makes you say that about 2C-E? They are all extremely potent.  It's a question about purity, dosage and ROA, not which phenethylamine is stronger by weight or which one is more popular.

I'll be trying out IM 25-I in a bit, and C after.
I'm interested in trying to cheek it (vs. snorting) after reading some of this.


----------



## IamMe90

DexterMeth said:


> ^What makes you say that about 2C-E? They are all extremely potent.  It's a question about purity, dosage and ROA, not which phenethylamine is stronger by weight or which one is more popular.
> 
> I'll be trying out IM 25-I in a bit, and C after.
> I'm interested in trying to cheek it (vs. snorting) after reading some of this.



I'm sorry, but I don't understand this at all. I wasn't saying anything about which PEA was "stronger" but I was saying something about the unique qualitative differences between PEAs. For instance, 2c-b is a documented aphrodisiac and I and many others can confirm this, whereas 2c-e has a reputation for being exceedingly visual, deep, and hard on the body. 2c-i is known as "psychedelic eye candy." These are generalizations made from aggregating the common experiences of a lot of people. Of course YMMV, but obviously some drugs tend to have qualitative differences from others.


----------



## pooyah

mrdqb said:


> Sorry I don't mean to offend anyone and I'm not a role model , but can you tell me what exactly is the benefit of using psychedelics in the first place? Someone said I'm they type that ruins it for the rest of you, what exactly do the rest of you need this stuff for? While I admit it is a cool experience, I can't think of any social situation which being high on something would be socialy acceptable. Unless you're doing this in a controlled group environment. Nor does it give you any lasting physical benefits. The only possible usefull use of these as well as other drugs are for either physical or psychological thereputic applications. Even if you do this stuff responsibly at home does that make you a great person? what difference does it make if you waste away in private or public? I did as much research on this checmical as i could before trying int. AndI couldn't find one single experience that suggested it was even possilble for this stuff to work if taken in powdered form. So whether or not the stuff would work was not known to me at the time. Well i guess I was wrong. I just wanted to post my experience with this. I'm not advocating anybody replcate what I did. I thought this was an open forum where you could report your experience. And another reason I chose to test this the way I did was because allot of times the stuff i order turns out to be bunk. So I though there was a 50/50 shot of this stuff being bunk as well.


 
i read your last posts as well. you're like a total n00b lol


----------



## mrdqb

shut up.. I can do more 25i than you and your whole family put together. Also the redose period is definitly more than 2 days. I tried after 2 days, nada. So i'm going to try again in about 3 days.. and i don't do the sissy hbcpd complex like you people ahahaha.

lol dexermeth i know you man ur on topix.. hahah

but i'm certain it's not 2 weeks. maybe 1 week tops

i say 4-5 days but not tested yet , def more than 2, probibly 3 days..  also upping the dose doesn't seem to make any difference believe me.

Please don't quadruple post.. Also "dick-sizing" with doses etc is not cool. ~Jesusgreen


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## IamMe90

Did about 1.5mg nasally spread out over an hour in 5 doses. This was definitely about the maximum strength I'd go with still being comfortable, the visuals were ridiculous and VERY DOI like at this strength, a little overwhelming but enjoyable overall. This drug when dosed nasally has much more of its own character IMO, which can be a bit more frightening, but it is very interesting mentally. The music enhancement was just lovely... and the come down my GOD, the come down was one of the most incredibly orgasmic body highs I've ever had, on par with 2c-b.


----------



## twelvesevndi

i'm beginning to suspect 2 weeks isn't _enough _time for me, personally.

maybe you think people are saying you can't successfully trip again for two weeks? the principle concept of tolerance is that it a higher dosage is required for a given effect. and that the desired effect may not be able to be replicated until a sufficient amount of time has elapsed.

i think this stuff is all over the map, personally. I seem to have a much stronger "in-session" (i.e. redosing while tripping) tolerance for 2c-e than for 4-aco-dmt. yet i've been able to successfully achieve strong trips on 2c-e two days in a row with no problem.
However, as IAmMe astutely pointed out, its easy to underestimate tolerance when you have acquired a large amount of a substance. I have been much more cautious about dosing this than i was with 2c-e.


also, can't believe you think 25i-nbome and mxe are the only good RCs that are accessible right now.. what about all the lovely tryptamines? i guess they cost a lot (comparatively) but that just reflects how good they are: people pay that price ffs.


----------



## twelvesevndi

IamMe90 said:


> Did about 1.5mg nasally spread out over an hour in 5 doses. This was definitely about the maximum strength I'd go with still being comfortable, the visuals were ridiculous and VERY DOI like at this strength, a little overwhelming but enjoyable overall. This drug when dosed nasally has much more of its own character IMO, which can be a bit more frightening, but it is very interesting mentally. The music enhancement was just lovely... and the come down my GOD, the come down was one of the most incredibly orgasmic body highs I've ever had, on par with 2c-b.


thanks for that. i've got to try this 1 buccal/sublingual sometime soon.


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## sheekle

I took 500ug complexed buccally and it wasn't as intense as I'd expected it to be, although I still enjoyed it. It was also more dis-similar to LSD than I expected it to be too.

I plan on taking 1mg buccally next time.


I also don't understand why people say this is 16x as potent as 2ci, that doesn't make sense. If that were the case then 500ug would only be equivalent to 8mg of 2ci and some people report half a milligram of 25i as being a very strong experience. I have also heard that it's 25x as potent as 2ci which I would say makes more sense.


I found this compound to be less confusing than LSD, I could articulate my thoughts better. At the same time my mind felt more cloudy/dreamy and introspective. While it was a life-changing experience, I don't believe it tapped me as far into the "collective consciousness" - so to speak. I didn't have as much of that one-ness and it seemed like it had less love in a way. There have been cases where people who have tried both this compound and LSD have taken this and thought they took LSD. Every trip is different so maybe next time the effects I get from it will be more similar to those of LSD.

I thought this was a nice unique trip with a different type of euphoria than I was expecting which was good. It seemed less "giddy" to me than LSD.

I found that this compound was very colorful. I enjoyed the experience.


----------



## Seyer

sheekle said:


> I also don't understand why people say this is 16x as potent as 2ci, that doesn't make sense. If that were the case then 500ug would only be equivalent to 8mg of 2ci and some people report half a milligram of 25i as being a very strong experience. I have also heard that it's 25x as potent as 2ci which I would say makes more sense.


From Erowid: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2ci/2ci_dose.shtml

Oral 2C-I Dosages
Threshold	2 - 5 mg
Light	5 - 15 mg
Common	10 - 25 mg
Strong	20 - 30 mg

Ill agree with you to a certain point, because I doubt theres many people taking less than 15mg of 2C-I unless theyre really sensitive to it. But that doesnt mean the chemical isnt active at lower doses.


----------



## Transform

Don't forget you're comparing oral to insufflated, where the dose is typically 45% of oral for the 2Cs


----------



## MattPsy

sheekle said:


> I also don't understand why people say this is 16x as potent as 2ci, that doesn't make sense. If that were the case then 500ug would only be equivalent to 8mg of 2ci and some people report half a milligram of 25i as being a very strong experience. I have also heard that it's 25x as potent as 2ci which I would say makes more sense.



So, did you get this 16x figure from Wikipedia, huh?
It's 16x the 5ht2a receptor affinity, not necessarily subjective potency, and besides as Transformer says you must also adjust for the ROA being insufflation versus oral.


----------



## SONN

People who are concerned with the tolerance I have concluded that the tolerance does actually build up even when trips are spaced a week apart.

I did a ~1 mg hcl non complexed blotter of 25i in my upper gum. I had a nice trip and noticed the amount of emotional enhancement while I was playing guitar was better and easier to control than any other trip I'd had yet. I had some visuals but barely to the extent of +++ at all. I had a really clear, even confident headspace. 

The next weekend I did 1 and a half blotters of 25c hcl non complexed in my upper gum. I had a decently stronger trip. I had significantly more visuals than my trip the week before. The come up was amazing, tactile sensations were sending me into an MDMA-like euphoria and there was a really really good stimulation. I tripped pretty hard, but the emotion wasn't there. I figured it was just because it was 25c not 25i.

the next week I was trying to have a more emotional trip like the one I had two weekends earlier with one hit of 25i. I decided to do two hits of LSD, half a hit of 25c, and ~120 mgs of MDMA. The trip still lacked emotion. It also lacked visuals. I was extremely stimulated to the point of jittering all over the place and not being able to sit still constantly rubbing things. I still enjoyed the trip and smoked lots and lots of weed which enhanced the visuals and emotion when it came to music a little but the emotional aspect of tripping was barely there.

My friends who tripped with me when I did the LSD all said they had really emotional trips particularly the two who did 2 hits of 25i after not tripping for a few months.

I'm pretty sure it was the 5ht2a receptor that had a tolerance and because of that I'm assuming you can't have a strong, emotional +++ experience 3 weeks in a row on this drug unless you really start to push the dosage the 3rd week.


----------



## DwayneHoover

Kishka said:


> Since I can't dose on blotters (because I don't know how to do it). If I want to take a drop of liquid (2C-I-NBOMe) in buccal ? I just need to hold the drop of liquid in my mouth ?



PLEASE don't mix this or things like it so they are 1 "drop" of liquid for a full dose.  VERY DANGEROUS!  Accidental dosing by even you is possible, and the danger even moreso by someone who came across it not knowing really how to use... yeah you can say "they deserve what they get" but I feel we do have SOME degree of responsibility to protect The Idiots, don't you think? :D

Also the more concentrated it is, the dose/vol will increase MUCH more rapidly under evaporation, and even a little evaporation (almost impossible to avoid I've found) can increase the dose in what was once the "right" volume of liquid to being "too much."  This effect is much less problematic the more dilute the original solution.

So I try to shoot for 1dose/1ml of liquid, about one typical dropperful.  I'll give the idiots &/or pilferers 1 dropperful of allowance... if they get greedier or foolhardier than that however, then, yeah, they do deserve whatever they get, haha!


----------



## blowjay

Ok I would like to push those who know in the direction to clear some things up that should be verified to help the community out. While we have growing knowledge about these compounds in their dosage,administration, and solubility, we are lacking on a few established properties.

I am going to post this in every nBOME thread that is a decent amount of pages long and hopefully we can get somewhere with this. These things are growing in popularity and we need to have something compact and concise to use as a reference for them.

Here goes:

1) Does the NBOMe compound need to be complexed to be active if it is a salt? Can an ethanol and NBOMe solution be active bucally/sublingually without HPBCD?

2) Does HPBCD allow the NBOMe compound to become orally active or does it simply allow solubility? Does the complexation result in a noticeably increased efficiency and better results?

3) Can both salt and freebase forms be vaporized or snorted or plugged?

These are the 3 most pressing issues (in my opinion) that I see that are not being cleared up. I see disagreements with many of them and many inconsistencies and would love this all to be cleared up and settled so that we can have a fully established understanding of these things.

I would also like to see a concise summary of the respective solubilities of the compounds listed in their varying forms. A concise complexing writeup would be nice to have also. That is really all that I am asking for, if a mod can help me get this thing going a bit more professionally as a broad overview of the compounds I think it would be very beneficial for the community. One page with everything on it relating to all the NBOMe's and all of the properties worked out.

We may not know everything but we know more than we used to. Lets get this stuff all together so people don't have to swim through 30+ pages to find their answers.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/6...8#post10369718

Please respond with anything of relevance to this thread ^

Cross posting is not allowed. A new thread and repeated in 5 other threads? Seriously man, you should know better. Also, utfse/read more.
~Never


----------



## TheAppleCore

Today I had another absolutely wonderful trip on 25I-NBOMe, alone in the woods.

I found a love for myself deeper than any love I have ever had, for anyone or anything in this world.

I was so grateful just to exist, to be able to see the world in bright stereo vision, to hear the delicate sounds of nature with sensitive ears, that I wept, for a long time. It was the most amazing feeling in the world, I could almost feel my whole body being healed, to the very core, by the cleansing release of this catharsis.

Dosage was 430 mcg 25I-NBOMe citrate (which is equivalent to 300 mcg 25I freebase).



I think I do prefer this one to 25C -- I'll probably give details in the NBOMe comparison thread soon.


----------



## Enables

Not taking this chem again and after this I'm planning to stay away from rc's in general. I dosed 25i around less than two weeks ago but more than one week. The dose wasn't insanely high or anything to my knowledge. They were dropped in liquid form on paper and candy although I'm not sure how much stayed on the candy due to it sticking to the plastic bag it was stored in. 

I had used 25i once before in late December. Anyways the day after my most recent trip I felt very depressed and "off". I have started waking up in the middle of the night, something I never used to do. Occasionally I will feel down or sad which seems to be happening more after using the 25i. I still feel kind of different and am more tired than usual, which may be due to waking up at night and sometimes not being able to fall back asleep. Any input?


----------



## TheSpectre

For sure, trouble sleeping will cause more tiredness through the day. Try taking 5-htp to help boost your serotonin. I don't know if it works for sure but even if it doesn't, the placebo effect does for me.



> "....from the journals of a Mad Scientist"
> 
> Test Subject: _Rattus norvegicus_
> Material: 500 micrograms HCL (non-complexed) 25I-nBOME
> 
> Notes: After holding under tongue for 20 minutes and then finally swallowing. First alerts at 45 min mark but nothing developed further. Trouble sleeping afterward."




So my question is, in this form, should the researcher in question use 2 tabs due to the insufficient solubility with the non-complexed HCL version?


----------



## IamMe90

The HCl is sufficiently soluble noncomplexed.


----------



## TheSpectre

That's what I gathered from reading through this large post.

Any ideas what might have gone wrong? Should he wait 2 weeks and then try 2?  He has a ton of experience with these chems (at least 15 different RC's etc.)  He overdosed one time by a stupid mathematical error but everything worked out in the end. Which was over 10 years ago.  He respects these things cause of that experience.  I know 1 mg is a strong dose but if the 500 ug did very little should he attempt the double dose next time after tolerance has faded?


----------



## freedstar

If 500mics buccal was nothing 1mg shouldn't be a problem. Definitely give it 2 weeks. 


I have a friend with little psychedelic experience. One 3.5g shroom nightmare a few years ago, bad place at a bad time. And 2 tabs of 25D-nbome supposedly 800mics each which turned into an overall good and fun trip for him. 

He took 3 tabs of 25I-nbome buccal (supposed to of been 500mics each, different source, may be lower dosed? haven't had time myself to see) and held them in properly for 30 minutes. Said it didn't even feel like he was tripping, and it was boring overall. His 25D trip was verry positive and he loved it.

I was thinking 1mg 25I buccal should be around the same level of intensity as 1.6mg 25D. But who the heck knows, with buccal dosing and not even being sure of the actual dose on the tabs it's all very pointless to try and consider 8)


----------



## OPANAMONIUM

This past weekend I took 1mg of 25i combined with roughly 350mg of mdma throughout the night.

I dont feel like writing a trip report right now but I just wanted to report that it felt like a fairly safe combo. Im not recommending anyone be guinea pigs themselves but id definitely do this combo again.


----------



## Kajob

Does anyone know which HPBCD I should complex with 25i; Endotoxin Controlled, Pharmaceutical Grade, or Technical Grade?

Also, how should HPBCD complexed 25i blotters be stored?


----------



## Transform

Complex with whichever you like. Sounds like none will be poisonous, but I'd be going for pharma grade if I had the option.

Bear in mind that there has barely even been anecdotal evidence to suggest that complexing is better than neutralising to a salt.


----------



## Kajob

Transform said:


> Complex with whichever you like. Sounds like none will be poisonous, but I'd be going for pharma grade if I had the option.
> 
> Bear in mind that there has barely even been anecdotal evidence to suggest that complexing is better than neutralising to a salt.



Thanks for the suggestion. Any idea how to keep the blotters stored well and keep potency?


----------



## Munfus

I have read that 25i-nbome is hydrphobic.  If that's the case, complexing it with hpbcd should improve bioavailability via buccal, sublingual  or nasal ROA's.  This should be the case whether you have the freebase o.rhcl.

As far as storage, the powder should store fine in a cool, dark, dry place.  I would imagine this would be the case for blotter.  Personally, I'd put them in the fridge


----------



## DexterMeth

IamMe90 said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't understand this at all. I wasn't saying anything about which PEA was "stronger" but I was saying something about the unique qualitative differences between PEAs. For instance, 2c-b is a documented aphrodisiac and I and many others can confirm this, whereas 2c-e has a reputation for being exceedingly visual, deep, and hard on the body. 2c-i is known as "psychedelic eye candy." These are generalizations made from aggregating the common experiences of a lot of people. Of course YMMV, but obviously some drugs tend to have qualitative differences from others.


Ok that makes sense.  Was just wondering what you meant about the 2C-E.


----------



## greenmeanies

Kajob, please do post your technique and results of complexing. I may be acquiring some 25I freebase and I want to compare the results of salting (either acetate or ascorbate) with those of HPBCD complexing.

I'd use the endotoxin-controlled grade for anything that might get IM or IV injected (in addition to micron filter of course). Food grade sounds perfect for insufflation or buccal administration. Technical grade I would only use for fabric softener or homemade febreze (look it up, HPBCD is the active ingredient!)


----------



## Kajob

Well im just going to copy the technique that Tregar posted earlier in this thread, which seems relatively simple by the way he details the process. Check out page 3 of this thread, press ctrl+F and search, " 1. One method: a researcher could add 900mg of HPBCD to 50ml of 95% etoh " (for the method). Then go to page 5 and look at the top post for his list of supplies required for the method. He also suggested the brand, Trappsol, for the HPBCD.

This is the technique I'm going to use, take care!


----------



## sheekle

if someone took 500ug and found the effects to be not as strong as they thought but still enough to get pretty high and then took 1mg 8 days later do you think the mg would be signifigantly stronger than the 500ug?


----------



## Transform

No, not at all. We know the NBOMe series quickly produce a high tolerance which lasts for a good 2 weeks.

I still can't for the life of me find sensibly priced HPBCD, there is one place in america which does the endotoxin controlled stuff, but shipping is $100!
I'm investigating getting some from china now, a kilo is around $100!


----------



## El Ruso

...


----------



## IamMe90

Transform said:


> No, not at all. We know the NBOMe series quickly produce a high tolerance which lasts for a good 2 weeks.
> 
> I still can't for the life of me find sensibly priced HPBCD, there is one place in america which does the endotoxin controlled stuff, but shipping is $100!
> I'm investigating getting some from china now, a kilo is around $100!



I don't think we "know" this at all, as the reports I've read in this thread and at other forums seem to be all over the map. I think what we "know" is that the nbomes are likely to produce a variable and unpredictable tolerance in users.


----------



## zn13bt

Today I tried a 500ug dose of 25I-NBOMe using liquid dosing onto a strip of paper which was then dried and applied to my upper gums for a half hour. I didn't try any of this complexing stuff; instead I tried to dissolve it in distilled water, but it wouldn't dissolve, so I guessed that I have freebase (despite it being sold as HCl) and added some vinegar to convert it to the acetate salt. I noticed as I was preparing the dose that I started to get a headache and also feel a little "floaty" at the same time.  I don't know if that was placebo or if I accidentally inhaled a few specks of powder as I was measuring it out...?

About an hour after I took the paper out of my mouth the floaty feeling got a little stronger, and I started to feel very relaxed and open. But I didn't get any visuals or have anything progress beyond a +1. It felt somewhat like low-dose DOC, but without as much of the amphetamine pushiness. I even kept yawning the whole time. About four hours after dosing, I started to notice little aches in my joints and hands, and the headache which was in the background became more persistent. I also felt a heaviness in my gut and a vague sense of unease that developed over a couple of hours. I took some ibuprofen for the achiness and half a Unisom for the anxiety, and it seems to be helping a little. It's been ten hours since dosing now, and I'm still at a mild +1, and back to the more positive mood I started out with.

I'm not sure if I'm going to try this substance again. The body load wasn't that bad really, but there wasn't much else going on besides a mood uplift and a slightly psychedelicized mental space. I'm kind of worried the aching and body tension will get worse if I try higher doses.


----------



## sheekle

Transform said:


> No, not at all. We know the NBOMe series quickly produce a high tolerance which lasts for a good 2 weeks.
> 
> I still can't for the life of me find sensibly priced HPBCD, there is one place in america which does the endotoxin controlled stuff, but shipping is $100!
> I'm investigating getting some from china now, a kilo is around $100!


 i dunno i took about 1mg today and i tripped major balls so i guess its different for everyong


----------



## Transform

zn13bt said:


> About an hour after I took the paper out of my mouth the floaty feeling got a little stronger, and I started to feel very relaxed and open. But I didn't get any visuals or have anything progress beyond a +1. It felt somewhat like low-dose DOC, but without as much of the amphetamine pushiness. I even kept yawning the whole time.



We don't understand yawning very well, but certainly for me, serotonegeric drugs will bring on yawning.

Interesting to know sheekle - how many days after the first dose was that?


----------



## sheekle

Transform said:


> We don't understand yawning very well, but certainly for me, serotonegeric drugs will bring on yawning.
> 
> Interesting to know sheekle - how many days after the first dose was that?


 
8 days


i took 2 and then about an hour and a half later if i remember correctly I took a third but with the immediate tolerance idk if the third one worked so yeah like 1-1.5mg


----------



## SabbathViper

mrdqb said:


> shut up.. I can do more 25i than you and your whole family put together. Also the redose period is definitly more than 2 days. I tried after 2 days, nada. So i'm going to try again in about 3 days.. and i don't do the sissy hbcpd complex like you people ahahaha.
> 
> lol dexermeth i know you man ur on topix.. hahah
> 
> but i'm certain it's not 2 weeks. maybe 1 week tops
> 
> i say 4-5 days but not tested yet , def more than 2, probibly 3 days..  also upping the dose doesn't seem to make any difference believe me.
> 
> Please don't quadruple post.. Also "dick-sizing" with doses etc is not cool. ~Jesusgreen



Wow, it bothers me that people this ignorant end up getting access to these compounds. Go back to Mephedrone and stop wasting our time with your posts. "Sissy complexing"... seriously, how old are you?


----------



## Goldenticket

In re: tolerance. I'm going to have to say it seems you can get pretty close to baseline after about 72hrs. However during some other tests it's quite obvious tolerance spikes hard during the first 24-48hrs. (IE: ts1 - 25i hcl @ 1mg, nice good +3, but in an effort to keep it going, redosed another 700mcg about 6hours in.. This had little to no effect)

Also - I acquired my 25i in freebase form, and converted it to HCL form. No testing was done with the freebase.

However I'm seeing little to no benefit from HCL to complexed HCL =/ A couple pm's are out trying to confirm results, and or see if I messed up during complex.


----------



## El Ruso

...


----------



## TheAppleCore

Pleasingly, 25I-NBOMe does not seem to suppress appetite in any significant way. On an LSD comedown I can barely stomach the sight of food, but I was able to put away two hearty platefuls of whole grain pasta while still significantly intoxicated on 25I.


----------



## kingme

El Ruso said:


> I got a nasal spray to dose my 25i. I mixed 50mg in 10ml of water, and had measured each spray at 0.1ml, so each spray should be 0.5mg. I tried dosing the first time with 2 sprays, and I got a ++ experience. I was expecting more. Are my calculations off, or should I try upping my dose?



so how did you manage to measure out the individual sprays? im just curious.....
also, it might be that not the entire dose went in your nose where it should have... did you have a drip? did you also remember to shake the bottle well before using?
whats the stability/shelf life of this compund in this solution?


----------



## El Ruso

...


----------



## OTGee

I have some 25I-NBOMe on blotters. I thought that it would not degrade as I heard that its lifespan was 2 - 3x as long as us humans so I wasn't worried. Then I realised that it is probably much different and should be stored differently then the powder form. I dont know what the NBOMe was disolved in but it said they were ion exchance blotters, whatever that means. Anyway, I gave 1 3/4 to a friend who took them when he went to see netsky, he was also taking speed and mdma that night I think. He told me he didn't feel anything from them but 1. He might just be trying to rip me off 2. The other drugs effected his trip 3. It has degraded. He said the only effects that were felt was a potentation of the speed.

As I was under the impression they would not degrade, I kept the blotters in the baggie that they were shipped in, sealed. In another fitted plastic open envelope inside another package coated in bubble wrap. The package was mostly kept out of sunlight but might have been lying out for a few hours once or twice. I have had the blotters for around 1 - 2 months.

So, have they degraded? That is a shame if they have as I only got a chance to take this once and still have 5 tabs left. Any help on the situation is apreciated

EDIT: I know this was pretty stupid as most people store tabs in tin foil or something just as good, I just wasn't thinking as I haven't been using as many psych's or drugs in general so they have not been on my mind as much.


----------



## sn23

I'm fairly certain that the paper isn't any fancy modified cellulose but just plain paper, and that the substance in/on blotters is about as stable as in powder form (it could have higher surface area though). I don't believe it's option 3.

Does your friend know how to use these blotters? Dosing NBOMe substances as blotters is reportedly very inconsistent. Allegedly they don't work if the substance ends up in the stomach for metabolic and/or kinetic and/or other reasons. Perhaps only a fraction of the dose made it to the brain and he didn't notice the weaker effects in that mix.

Have you tested these blotters for activity yourself? That could be option 4.


----------



## OTGee

sn23 said:


> I'm fairly certain that the paper isn't any fancy modified cellulose but just plain paper, and that the substance in/on blotters is about as stable as in powder form (it could have higher surface area though). I don't believe it's option 3.
> 
> Does your friend know how to use these blotters? Dosing NBOMe substances as blotters is reportedly very inconsistent. Allegedly they don't work if the substance ends up in the stomach for metabolic and/or kinetic and/or other reasons. Perhaps only a fraction of the dose made it to the brain and he didn't notice the weaker effects in that mix.
> 
> Have you tested these blotters for activity yourself? That could be option 4.



Yes I tested them myself and recieved a reasonably strong trip from 1mg although a little underwhelming. He said he held them subbucally without swallowing for 20 - 30mins, he then swallowed the tab + his saliva.
When I dosed I ended up swallowing multiple times as I had weird cottonmouth and held them in the same manor moving it around my mouth for about 40 - 50mins, it definatley worked for me although I think it would have been more ffective if I kept it in the same place and didn't swallow.

I have no idea what he did wrong as he is experienced with various psychedelics and is no idiot, probably just trying to scam me out of some DOI tabs he promised me. Thanks for the input, my main concern was that it had degraded and I could no longer trip. There was a yellow blotch on the blotter that seems more prominent and bright then it is now (hard to see with the naked eye) although that might just be my memory playing tricks on me. Thanks again for your reply


----------



## sonix

i tried 25i nbome my first time this week at 6 mg dose 3 500 mcg complexed blotters and 5 1mg blotters non complexed and i had DMT closed eye visual complex patterns and had intense 3d visuals of fractal type patterns coming out into the air. was totally sober minded through the whole thing no mind fuck at all totally a great time will definately try it again. visuals were nice color morphing was alot like doi and tracers like 2ce but the visuals at high doses have the complexity of DMT fractals in mid air it but you can make the patterns how you want and light adds patterns dramatically on this substance.


----------



## Sandozer

*My question is...*

but my question was supposed to be: How similar is the 25I experience to the LSD experience?


----------



## bluedolphin

Trip report ~2mg insufflated here: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...-time-So-real-but-these-things-did-not-happen


----------



## Moss on a rock

I notice from other trip reports that people seem to enjoy 500mcg to 1mg doses of 25i. It appears thats because they want a full blown psychadelic experience. But what if someone wanted to retain decent motor control and be able to "put aside the trip" to do something while tripping- like make tea on the stove or pack a  bowl or find your way in and out of a concert arena without getting lost and be able to find the bathroom when you are there and just be able to deal with people if need be? The purpose of this experiment was to find a low dose quantity that would produce an enjoyable psychadelic experience without losing mental ability and physical dexterity. Not everyone is a hard head and this subject certainly takes no pride in bragging about taking stupidly huge dosages.

Subject: very healthy male, 117 lbs., accustomed to very sedentary lifestyle, 40y/o, last trip was 2 months earlier on insulfated 25i.

Using a cheap mg scale with known linearity of +- 4mg, 16 to 25 mg freebase 25i-NBOMe was weighed out and dissolved in 20 ml dehydrated etoh. The etoh was dehydrated in advance using 3A molecular sieves.  The actual amount of 25i weighed out was probably closer to 16 mg. The goal was to produce 1mg/ml solution. Then, 200 mg HPBCD was weighed out and added to the solution. Both components easily dissolved. A solution of 0.7mg/ml (25i:etoh) was probably acheived instead.

0.25 mL solution was drawn out with 1mL syringe marked with .01mL increments. The solution was then slowly applied to a suspended blotter  over the course of maybe 10 minutes and allowed to dry. The goal was to produce a 160 to 250 mcg dose of 25i complexed with HPBCD on blotter but an amount closer to 160mcg was probably acheived. The blotter was a 1 x 3/4 inch piece of coffee filter.

The blotter was cut in half lengthwise and both halves placed between upper lip and gums and held for 30 minutes. 30 minutes was probably unnecessary but the blotter stayed in place very easily. No taste or numbing was sensed. Just felt like having a piece of paper in the mouth.

2 hrs later mild OEVs began to be noticeable. Euphoria and increased energy was noticed. OEVs werent much more than waves of visual distortion  and very mild tracers. There was very little loss of motor control. 

3 hrs after dosing, Oolong tea was made; dinner was cooked and consumed. Some time was then spent on the computer reading and responding to online forums. Enjoyed listening to Sunday Baroque.

6 hrs after dosing, CEVs became evident. And it was like exactly 6 hrs to the minute like a switch was flipped. It was noticed that suddenly something was different. The CEVs werent immediately apparent when closing the eyes but with calming the mental activity and focusing the attention on the CEVs, after maybe 2 minutes, they exploded like kaleidoscopic fireworks. Really freakin beautiful. So it would take a bit of meditation to make the CEVs happen but they did! Problem was maintaining the focus on the CEVs, for as soon as the mind wandered onto some other subject, the CEVs dissappeared. This could be good practice for learning meditation. Also, at this stage, a lot of the earlier stimulation had worn off. So, it was easier to sit/lie down and try to experience the CEVs. This stage continued for another 4-5 hrs until sleep was attained.

8 hrs after dosing, synthabinoids JWH-081 and JWH-250 were smoked at a rate of about 0.5mg or less every 30 minutes or so until subject finally went to sleep. The synthabinoids seemed to enhance the over all experience with particular regard to the OEVs and CEVs.
The following day was great. No residual body load or back of the head headache or brain drain feelings. Normal energy and activity levels were felt.
Total experience from time of dosage was 11 hrs.

Summary/conclusions: I think many people like higher doses because they want their face rubbed in the psychadelic experience. But for a more controlable experience, lower doses can be just as enjoyable. The dose produced as described above may really have been a bit low but is definitely above threshold. The accuracy of the amount measured was limited by the linearity of the scale used. This subject suspects threshold may be around 100mcg but doesnt remember what others have to say in that regard. A similar amount of bodily control could probably be retained with a dose between 250 to 350 mcg. The OEVs may be a bit more developed at that dosage range. CEVs would be easier to enjoy. At that range, the first 6 hrs may also not be too physically stimulating. Dosing in this range may also be more amenable to being in a social environment in comparison to a high dose. Still, driving would not be recommended but the subject should retain good fine motor control and a sitter should not have to worry much about the subject. Late in the trip, the two above mentioned synthabinoids seemed to compliment the 25i very well. Overall message, try lower doses if you want to run around, be with people, and have manual dexterity with out being a tripped out spaz.

Oh yeah, people who make blotters with freebase and dont complex it and find that it doesnt do anything didnt actually absorb any of it- you wasted your material. The reason behind complexing with HPBCD is to make this stuff absorbable since it is not water soluble. Please do your homework. I believe that complexing with HPBCD is the easiest, least problematic and most effective way to handle this stuff. 25i complexed in this manner should also increase its stability since the HPBCD surrounds the 25i molecule which would theoretically reduce its exposure to oxygen, humidity, light, blah blah blah,  although probably no legitimate studies have been done to determine if this is so. Thank tregar for your contribution on this subject.


----------



## SONN

In regards to the tolerance, it's not noticeable 7 days after dosing but if you dose another 7 days after that you will notice it.


----------



## ntat

IamMe90 said:


> I don't think we "know" this at all, as the reports I've read in this thread and at other forums seem to be all over the map. I think what we "know" is that the nbomes are likely to produce a variable and unpredictable tolerance in users.



True that... honestly, if you take 500ug and then 1mg a week later, you will definitely notice a massive increase in intensity of effects. I've had a shit ton of experience with nbomes, i and b... and waiting a week and then doubling the dose will definitely produce greater effects than the first time, infact just 3 days and take the same dose and you'll get an experience CLOSE to what you had the first time. 

This is just from my personal experience, can always be different for anyone else obviously.

I had been vaping small amounts of 25b-nbome on monday and wednesday this week... last night i insufflated about 3mg of 25b-nbome(50 percent dextrose so don't flip about the large dosage number) and my experience was far beyond what I got on monday and wednesday with vaping about 1mg each time. 

also... I've been following this thread for a couple months now and I gotta say... you people need to read the damn thread before you post the same question that was answered 2 pages earlier, litterally the same shit about bioavailability, hcl vs freebase and complexed vs non complexed... over and over and over and over... c'mon people... READ. (lol okay sorry i'm done.)


----------



## ntat

OTGee said:


> I have some 25I-NBOMe on blotters. I thought that it would not degrade as I heard that its lifespan was 2 - 3x as long as us humans so I wasn't worried. Then I realised that it is probably much different and should be stored differently then the powder form. I dont know what the NBOMe was disolved in but it said they were ion exchance blotters, whatever that means. Anyway, I gave 1 3/4 to a friend who took them when he went to see netsky, he was also taking speed and mdma that night I think. He told me he didn't feel anything from them but 1. He might just be trying to rip me off 2. The other drugs effected his trip 3. It has degraded. He said the only effects that were felt was a potentation of the speed.
> 
> As I was under the impression they would not degrade, I kept the blotters in the baggie that they were shipped in, sealed. In another fitted plastic open envelope inside another package coated in bubble wrap. The package was mostly kept out of sunlight but might have been lying out for a few hours once or twice. I have had the blotters for around 1 - 2 months.
> 
> So, have they degraded? That is a shame if they have as I only got a chance to take this once and still have 5 tabs left. Any help on the situation is apreciated
> 
> EDIT: I know this was pretty stupid as most people store tabs in tin foil or something just as good, I just wasn't thinking as I haven't been using as many psych's or drugs in general so they have not been on my mind as much.



It probably didn't degrade at all... your friend most likely just swallowed the blots after a few minutes, but you gotta hold them between your lip and gums or under your tounge for a solid 15-20 minutes to absorb all of the drug.


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

So let me ask you this.  I have NBOMe blotter.  What's the best way to store it?  How fragile is this substance?  Does it fair better in the cold or, like most PEA's, can they just fair well with darkness, baggie, room temp?

Also, is it incorrect to refer to this class as a PEA?


----------



## zn13bt

zn13bt said:


> I'm not sure if I'm going to try this substance again. The body load wasn't that bad really, but there wasn't much else going on besides a mood uplift and a slightly psychedelicized mental space.



I'm laughing at myself rereading this....It's a week later, I decided to try 800ug today (instead of 500ug for my previous experience), and I'm six hours in and holy jesus god I am tripping my face off. I see now why peeps are raving about this stuff. Could not be more different from what happened last weekend. Kind of freaks me out that the only difference is a few notches on the syringe. Must be very very careful measuring this.

Also, you definitely don't need to bother with the HPABCDFQZ whatever nonsense. This is the acetate salt and it passed itself through my gums' mucous membranes just fine thank you. Did leave a nasty bitter taste in my mouth for a couple hours at the start. But all is forgiven now, oh yes indeedy.


----------



## sn23

PsychedelicDoctor said:


> So let me ask you this.  I have NBOMe blotter.  What's the best way to store it?  How fragile is this substance?  Does it fair better in the cold or, like most PEA's, can they just fair well with darkness, baggie, room temp?
> 
> Also, is it incorrect to refer to this class as a PEA?



The best way certainly is under dry inert gas in the freezer :D
Present-day consensus is that these NBOMe substances are rather stable and a baggie in a dark place at room temperature is good enough to make them last for years. Nevertheless I would advise long time storage just like tryptamines to be on the safe side. These substances simply don't exist long enough to know for sure.

They share the phenethylamine-skeleton with classical PEAs but have an additional methoxybenzyl moiety on the nitrogen. It's similar to saying ergoloids are tryptamines for they share parts of their molecular structure. They have a more or less close structural relationship but their biological effects (result of functional selectivity at 5HT2A) are perhaps so distinct from the classics they should be assigned a class for themselves (though I find "NBOMe" too simplified and therefore a bit misleading, but that is typical for me  ).


----------



## Expect

Tonight I will be trying 1600ug of 25i-nbome and 15mg of 2c-i together. Hoping to find some synergy or something, we'll see. If anything cool happens I'll make sure to leave a trip report.


----------



## bluedolphin

Sounds like high numbers in combination.. hope you have a good time and be safe


----------



## Jesusgreen

Merged, quoting so it gets seen, and removed the part that was really leading to ID discussion.



Sandozer said:


> but my question was supposed to be: How similar is the 25I experience to the LSD experience?


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

A friend of mine (really not SWIMMING here!, lol) whose word i trust on such matters, said that 500mcgs on complexed blotter felt very much like about 800mcgs of very cerebral, clean Bromo-Dragonfly or about 150mcgs of somewhat dirty LSD.  The dirty wasn't much of a body load, more intangible than say 2C-I.


----------



## Transform

Expect said:


> Tonight I will be trying 1600ug of 25i-nbome and 15mg of 2c-i together. Hoping to find some synergy or something, we'll see. If anything cool happens I'll make sure to leave a trip report.




That is a huge dose, I hope you see this in time to consider something more moderate.


----------



## Seyer

I think its a bit late considering he said "tonight" ^

25i, imo, is a very gentle chemical. Ive gone up to 4mg (2mg insufflated, then 2mg more 1 hour later, *not* dicksizing) and it was just really overwhelming but not the point of freakout or anything, as Im pretty experienced with psychedelics and that was my second time with 25i. 

1st time: 1mg insufflated.
2nd time: 2mg, then 2mg an hour later.
3rd time: 1mg, then 1mg an hour later.

All have been awesome experience and I feel that anyone who has a handle on this chemical can handle a bit higher than average doses. But by no means am I recommending my doses to anyone, Im just a fan of extremely intense experiences. 

A friend whos first time was with 1mg insufflated felt only threshold effects, and Im guessing this might be due to weight since he is quite a bit bigger than me (1.5-2x my weight). He gave it another go with 2.5mg 2 weeks later and had the time of his life.


----------



## TMNPothead

A friend of mine is on Prozac and was wondering if he would still feel effects from 25i? Can anyone help me out here please


----------



## deltanyne

*First RC experience coming up, advice? 25I*

A friend of mine told me the other day that as a gift he has some 25I nbome that he'd like to use over the weekend.  My history with psychedelics is pretty brief, I have been a marijuana smoker daily for the last 2 years, drink alcohol with authority, tripped on shrooms many times, and have taken lsd via tabs before.  This however would be my first foray into what you may call designer drugs.  Now hes tripped off of DOI before and has significantly more experience than me.  He says we should spend the day out maybe go to the movies and just do chill things.  My question is, what is a good starting dosage, and because it is my first time, would going out and being active on a 500 to 1mg trip be too much?  What things can I expect to look for?  I have read internet reviews on it and have done some research but I am looking for more intimate testimonies.  I realize that this is one of many 25I threads and is nothing new so I wouldn't be offended if you linked me to another thread related but would appreciate a response anyway.

Thanks


----------



## greenmeanies

From the BLWiki:



> Hallucinogens: LSD, mushrooms, Tryptamines, 2-ct-2,DPT, DMT etc, Salvia
> These drugs can be safely combined with the SSRIs. Most people report that they need to take MORE of a hallucinogen to get normal effects. Thus, if you are taking an SSRI, you will probably need more of the drug to reach threshold effects. Some people find that they need to take more LSD, but that shrooms affect them normally. So be careful to start at a normal dose and only take more if you find that you need to.
> NOTE: Do not take 'ayahuasca' while on an SSRI. Do not combine SSRIs with any kind of MAOI, such as harmaline.


----------



## any major dude

been itching to try this as its been in my stash for a while, may have the opportunity to get to it this week. Have many of you vaporized 25i? And if so how substantially different is the duration? I've vaped 25e a couple times & that was in the 4-6hr range. I have no reason to assume this would be different, but wanted to check here to get a general idea.


----------



## any major dude

Hey, i'm going to merge this with the Big & Dandy 25I thread. There's a wealth of personal experience in there for your perusal. Also here's a link to the erowid nbome vault: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/nbome/nbome.shtml


----------



## TheyLive

Expect said:


> Tonight I will be trying 1600ug of 25i-nbome and 15mg of 2c-i together. Hoping to find some synergy or something, we'll see. If anything cool happens I'll make sure to leave a trip report.



  Ive done atleast 1500ug before and was fine, just a really good trip, I honestly would consider it my limit though. Next time i will be sticking to maybe 1000 or 750ug.


----------



## OTGee

Anyone got any more info on the degredation questions I mentioned on the previous page?


----------



## Isidor

OTGee said:


> I have some 25I-NBOMe on blotters. I thought that it would not degrade as I heard that its lifespan was 2 - 3x as long as us humans so I wasn't worried. Then I realised that it is probably much different and should be stored differently then the powder form. I dont know what the NBOMe was disolved in but it said they were ion exchance blotters, whatever that means. Anyway, I gave 1 3/4 to a friend who took them when he went to see netsky, he was also taking speed and mdma that night I think. He told me he didn't feel anything from them but 1. He might just be trying to rip me off 2. The other drugs effected his trip 3. It has degraded. He said the only effects that were felt was a potentation of the speed.
> 
> As I was under the impression they would not degrade, I kept the blotters in the baggie that they were shipped in, sealed. In another fitted plastic open envelope inside another package coated in bubble wrap. The package was mostly kept out of sunlight but might have been lying out for a few hours once or twice. I have had the blotters for around 1 - 2 months.
> 
> So, have they degraded? That is a shame if they have as I only got a chance to take this once and still have 5 tabs left. Any help on the situation is apreciated
> 
> EDIT: I know this was pretty stupid as most people store tabs in tin foil or something just as good, I just wasn't thinking as I haven't been using as many psych's or drugs in general so they have not been on my mind as much.




I gave some 25i blotters (at 750 ug) to friends who were on speed. One said he didn't feel much and another said he felt an MDMA-like effect but very little visually. The one who said he didn't feel much took another blotter and then also felt the serotonergic effects but only slight visual effects. Talked to another friend about it and he said speed just kills the visual part. He says his visuals just die off after he does speed.


----------



## OTGee

Isidor said:


> I gave some 25i blotters (at 750 ug) to friends who were on speed. One said he didn't feel much and another said he felt an MDMA-like effect but very little visually. The one who said he didn't feel much took another blotter and then also felt the serotonergic effects but only slight visual effects. Talked to another friend about it and he said speed just kills the visual part. He says his visuals just die off after he does speed.



Thanks dude, thats interesting, anyone know why?


----------



## LSDreamer13

Alright I have a question and need someone to help me out, I just searched around and couldn't find a direct answer.

I have the connections to get what I need, and have experience with laying product to paper. So please don't try saying I don't need to do this or anything... And no, I'm not trying to sell 25i as acid. Just making things easier for myself and friends.

My 25i is freebase. Can I go from freebase to complexing with HPBCD, to liquid to paper?

Or.

Do I need to make my freebase a HCL salt, then complex it, then liquid to paper?

Anyone who can shed some light, that would be awesome. You can PM if you want. Any help with the process would be appreciated. My personal experience was laying other product, not 25i.

Would just dropping the liquid onto some sort of candy or altoid work? Instead of blotter?

And if I need to make it a HCL salt, how do I do that? Just put the freebase in water and drop HCL acid in it?


----------



## greenmeanies

I haven't had time to mess with my 25i (supposedly freebase) but I'll answer your basic chemistry questions.

Freebase 25i should not dissolve in water, even with HPBCD added to it. It would probably require at least 40% ethanol (80 proof vodka) to convince the 25i to join the solution party. I don't have experience working with HPBCD yet so I can't give you specifics, but I'd imagine there's something on page 3 of this thread that should serve as a guide.

Dosing the solution such that one drop is one dose (500ug or more) is actually fairly risky; single drops from a dropper are not consistent depending on speed of dropping, air interference, etc. That's why the correct liquid dosing method involves doses on the order of 1-2ml which is easily measured with an accurate syringe. But I know you're trying to prepare a bunch of doses for you and your friends to store on paper easily. So we'll continue on the assumption that you want 500ug per drop.

First prepare your dropper bottle. I've found that my dropper bottle provides approximately 16 drops per mL. You can test this first with water and a milligram scale. Write down the change of mass for each drop (the gram value on the scale will correspond to mL of water; thus milligrams on the scale will correspond to microliters of water) and note how consistent it is.

Actually, I'm a little too high to continue this without rambling on about various chemistry things, so I'll check back tomorrow and continue on the theory of liquid dosing for chemicals this powerful (and with the added complexity [har] of the cyclodextrin).

EDIT: Yep, page 3 tregar describes in pretty good detail his technique for applying 25i to blotters. He uses 95% ethanol (Everclear 190 proof) to dissolve everything.


----------



## LSDreamer13

Thank you! Id like to hear more when you have a chance too.

EDIT: Tregar has a great way, but that is only one paper at a time.

I just want to know if I can go from freebase-complex-liquid-paper. Or Do I need to make the freebase a HCL salt first?


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

freebase > HPBCD-complex > sol'n > paper should work just fine.


----------



## OTGee

You need to do one or the other not both,

So either complex it or convert it to HCL, its your choice.
Have fun


----------



## LSDreamer13

LOL duhhhhhhhhhh.

I just didn't want to try going straight from freebase and fuck up my product.

Thanks guys 

Oh and do you think it would work just being dropped onto candies or altoids? Rather than laying onto paper? I know how to lay, its just such a time consuming process with this chem...


----------



## OTGee

Does anyone else get a lot more HPPD from NBOMe's then other substances? I have noticed any symptoms a lot more since using 25I just once


----------



## LSDreamer13

I haven't noticed anything.


----------



## SONN

OTGee i can't say that I have.


----------



## TheAppleCore

No HPPD from 25I so far. As a reference, I've experienced minor temporary HPPD from LSD and 2C-E.


----------



## IamMe90

Never noticed any.


----------



## Seyer

None for me either as well. Only substance Ive experienced it with is Mescaline, only lasting 1-2 days on one occasion only.

Only after effect I noticed from 25i was that my eyes felt tired the next day, which I feel was just due to the overwhelming amount of visuals I had with my first experience. Thats the only time its happened though.


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

I typically notice an increase in basal HPPD rainbow static after 2C-I use for 72 hours or so.  I stopped smoking weed a few weeks ago and noticed that I only have these symptoms for about 24 hours now.


----------



## yoyoman

All you gotta do with the freebase is dissolve some distilled vinegar in with it, it doesn't take much, and boom just like that its dissolved.  Or add citric acid, fumaric acid, drops of HCl..   You only need like a few mg's of fumaric acid to get 25mg freebase totally dissolved in a ~7mL vial.  

Also people should order some metered nasal spray bottles... the kind that are near exact dosing (like 0.1mL/puff) so you can make 0.1mL=250mcg or something.  Then you just puff once in each nostril for a 500ug trip... or do another puff later to boost it.. these blotters... ehh.. no thanks, metered nasal spray's are the best if your not going to IM/SQ the dose.


----------



## yoyo50

epic name sir


----------



## StarOceanHouse

Does anyone notice cross tolerance with LSD? I'm planning on taking LSD on friday then dosing with 25i on saturday,


----------



## IamMe90

I don't know how many times this question needs to be answered before people start getting it...

_ALL_ psychedelics produce cross tolerance. Tryptamines, ergoloids and phenethylamines. Given that the effects of all psychedelic drugs are mediated through the 5ht2a receptor, they are all going to produce tolerance. Some might produce less marked cross tolerance because the range of subtype receptors might be different, but given that they all have a shared basic mechanism, the tolerance is going to be there for all of them.


----------



## StarOceanHouse

^Yes but some are more pronounced than others. Which is why I asked if anyone has ever *noticed* cross tolerance with LSD.


----------



## MattPsy

Yes, but more in the NBOMe --> LSD order, rather than LSD --> NBOMe. As in, you'll notice less tolerance if you take LSD the first time of the two.


----------



## PureBass

I have a few questions regarding 25i-nbome 

1.) How can I identify if I have freebase or hcl?

2.) What color / smell does this have "just wanna make sure they didnt mislabel products"

3.) Also has anyone tried 25i with out having complexing it with hpbcd ? And if you have was it HCL or Freebase?

4.) what would be your guess at the maximum amount of mg/ml possible ? 

5.) is there any alternatives to HPBCD?


----------



## PureBass

also what would be the recommended dosage for non-complexed, Ive been all over this thread and have only seen one post about dosage for non-complexed but the guy didnt seem very certain it was accurate.


----------



## blowjay

For those of you on the fence with this one it seems to be getting its fair share of media coverage. That is all I feel like saying on the matter.


----------



## OTGee

Does anyone have any info on smoking 25I-NBOMe blotters. If I were to burn it similar to the freebase powder would it still work? I am unsure if the blotters have been complexed or are HCL. Anyone have any experience doing this? Would the blotter paper fuck up the vaporization?


----------



## StarOceanHouse

PureBass said:


> also what would be the recommended dosage for non-complexed, Ive been all over this thread and have only seen one post about dosage for non-complexed but the guy didnt seem very certain it was accurate.



Recommended intranasal dosages for non-complexed 25i are 500 ug - 1 mg.


----------



## Ian224

I feel like I should throw in my little bit of experience with this substance. I have done it twice, both times with blotter. The first time I did it I took about 500ug of it and didn't realize that you have to hold it in your mouth for a period of time for it to be active, so needless to say I only got minimal effects, I got a chance in depth perception, thoughts were definitely more on the psychedelic side, but that was about it. The second time however I knew to hold it in my mouth, I recieved 3 tabs of it which is about 1.5mg I decided to do them all at once considering I knew that I should be fine unless I do 4mg or above. I held them in my mouth for about 20 minutes and then swallowed. Within 30 minutes the effects took hold, colors were much brighter, I was having slight visual patterning similar to 2ci, very strong mental change, and I felt pretty good. One interesting visual effect is that it was raining outside and I looked at the rain and each raindrop was a different color. I did experience time skips with this substance though, at one point I was walking with a group of friends heading outside, and the next second I was outside away from my group of friends not knowing how I got there. One thing I find with this substance is I have a very hard time remembering the experience, like I can recall very little about it. It is a worthwhile substance but deserves much respect.


----------



## potito

Just coming down from my second trial with 25I-NBOMe and I must say I'm impressed. I can see it becoming a classic psychedelic for sure. I'm not a good writer in English but here are nonetheless some details about my latest experience.
I acquired the freebase material, so I thought I would try to salt it with citric acid.
Dissolved 10mg of 25I in about 2ml of 180 proof ethanol, added an approximately equimolar amount of citric acid (with some excess, about 25mg), stirred and it went into solution instantly. The solution was laid and evaporated on a 3,6cm² square of thick drawing paper which was divided into 16 blotters, each containing 600-650µg of 25I-NBOMe citrate (supposedly!).
I suspect the citric salt is active orally, because I only kept the blotter against my gums for 5 minutes before swallowing it. Didn't brush my teeth beforehand either and I deliberately swallowed my saliva. The experience was a strong ++, like 100-120µg of LSD would do to me. Curiously I thought it had more of a tryptamine vibe, beautiful contrasts, flowing/blurry vision and intricate CEVs. Body load was absent and the come-up was barely anxiogenic, very similar to LSD for me in that aspect. The chronology was also similar to LSD. Music appreciation was through the roof, and as a musician this really means something to me. I expect some crazy synesthesia with higher doses. I will give it two weeks and try it at 1mg. I'm really glad I have plenty to experiment with.

edit: I've been lurking around here for two years and I realize this is my first post. Must say something about this compound!


----------



## Incunabula

Nice post, Potito  

So, just wanted to check if any body sees anything dangerous in how I was planing to dose this.

I have 25i-NBOMe Hcl. I was thinking to dissolve 10 mg in 20 ml of Isopropyl alcohol.
I then thought to measure out one ml (0,5 mg) with a syringe, and drop that on a mirror or another smooth surface. Let the IPA evaporate, scrape the 25i together with a razor and snort it (maybe smoke it)

I'm aware that 0,5 mg will be a rediculously small amount to handle.

Comments appreciated.


----------



## Axed

Today I had the delightful discovery of finding two 500ug 25i-nbome blotters in the packaging the vendor sent my order of 4-aco-dmt in :D

So I have some questions!

Would 500ug be enough to really enjoy a show? We're talking Shpongle here, so I want to be pretty far into hyperspace.
Has anyone combined this stuff with 4-aco? If so, how was it? I'm thinking of doing a combo of the two if you guys say one blotter isn't enough. I'd take both but one would be going to a friend attending the show with me.


----------



## jdub42035

If your experienced and enjoy more intense experiences I would have to say 500ug would be a little on the low side. I personally take 2.5-3.5 mg for a very pleasant and enjoyable +++ 
Of coarse ymmv


----------



## PsychedelicDoctor

If I were to take 1mg buccally, would 20mg of 4-aco-dmt add anything to the experience about 4-5 hours in?

That would be optimal for scheduling doses.  

When would be optimal for going as far out as possible on these amounts?


----------



## tregar

Just a heads up: I would not recommend ever taking 25i-nbome with higher doses of mescaline, it could be physically dangerous and is taxing mentally. 350mg mescaline + 390ug 25i-nbome was not enjoyable until the 25i had worn off. Mescaline is perfect "as is" and needs nothing added to it. 25i only adds side effects to mescaline above the 300mg mescaline dosage. Mescaline and psilocin are perfect psychedelics as they are, and need nothing added to them. 25i only hits the 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptor sites with any amount of strength. I don't do 25i all that often anymore, as it seems like an incomplete trip to me, I only have so much time to devote to trips nowdays, and when I do, I like for it to be a complete well-rounded psychedelic. mescaline and psilocin are always complete trips and involve the whole spirit and mind imho. 



> psilocin:-------------compared with---------LSD:
> 
> 5-HT1A--2.88................................5-HT1A--3.73
> 5-HT1B--2.19................................5-HT1B--4.00
> 5-HT1D--3.40................................5-HT1D--3.70
> 5-HT1E--3.03................................5-HT1E--2.62
> ------------ ------------
> 5-HT2A--2.14................................5-HT2A--3.54
> 5-HT2B--4.00................................5-HT2B--3.11
> 5-HT2C--2.52................................5-HT2C--3.11
> 5-HT5A--2.83................................5-HT5A--3.64
> ------------ ------------
> 5-HT6--2.82.................................5-HT6---3.75
> 5-HT7--2.82.................................5-HT7---3.77
> D1-----3.37..................................D1------2.34
> D3-----2.52..................................D3------3.11
> adrenal 2A--1.36........................adrenal 2A---2.93
> adrenal 2B--1.57........................adrenal 2B---0.00
> adrenal 2c--1.03.........................adrenal 2c---0.00


----------



## Incunabula

Fagott said:


> Nice post, Potito
> 
> So, just wanted to check if any body sees anything dangerous in how I was planing to dose this.
> 
> I have 25i-NBOMe Hcl. I was thinking to dissolve 10 mg in 20 ml of Isopropyl alcohol.
> I then thought to measure out one ml (0,5 mg) with a syringe, and drop that on a mirror or another smooth surface. Let the IPA evaporate, scrape the 25i together with a razor and snort it (maybe smoke it)
> 
> I'm aware that 0,5 mg will be a rediculously small amount to handle.
> 
> Comments appreciated.


Quoting my self in the hope that somebody with the knowledge would care to have a look at what I'm about to do. Otherwise I'll just give it a go.

@Tregar. Seriously dude, I think it's enough now. your putting way to much into those receptor numbers. Just enjoy it. There's more than Ki values to tripping. well, what ever....


----------



## zn13bt

tregar said:


> Just a heads up: I would not recommend ever taking 25i-nbome with higher doses of mescaline, it could be physically dangerous and is taxing mentally. 350mg mescaline + 390ug 25i-nbome was not enjoyable until the 25i had worn off.



Could you be a little more specific about what you experienced with that combo, tregar? Was there a high body load, or lots of anxiety, or thought loops, or what? It's surprising to see you post something like this because you seemed so enthusiastic about this combo before...


----------



## tregar

There was just a high body load, that was it, "too much 5-HT2A/HT2C" stimulation, however, 250mg of mescaline with 350 to 400ug of 25i has always been just fine. 350mg of mescaline is fine all on it's own.

I've since grown quite fond of 4-ho-dmt (see post in 3rd 4-aco-dmt incarnation) recently.

favorite psychedelics are mescaline and psilocin, hands down.

25i is still very euphoric and enjoyable all on it's own or in combo with low-dose mescaline only.


----------



## zn13bt

Ok, so it was just too stimulating, that's good to know. I guess it's tricky to combine two substances with such different dosage ranges. I've been contemplating a combo with 4-AcO-DMT, but I think I have to try 25I on its own a few more times before I can get a feel for how much to use of each.


----------



## IamMe90

tregar said:


> There was just a high body load, that was it, "too much 5-HT2A/HT2C" stimulation, however, 250mg of mescaline with 350 to 400ug of 25i has always been just fine. 350mg of mescaline is fine all on it's own.
> 
> I've since grown quite fond of 4-ho-dmt (see post in 3rd 4-aco-dmt incarnation) recently.
> 
> favorite psychedelics are mescaline and psilocin, hands down.
> 
> 25i is still very euphoric and enjoyable all on it's own or in combo with low-dose mescaline only.



I think you put _way_ too much emphasis on receptor ki values that you probably don't even fully understand.


----------



## tregar

LSD and 25i-nbome are nothing alike imho, and it does have alot to do with what receptors they hit, i've spent months studying ki values of pages of psychedelics. Psychedelics like psilocin and mescaline and LSD are very special precise molecular keys, which just so happen to hit a very wide range of receptors in the brain. 5-HT1 receptors make up 80% of the brains 5-HT receptors, all 4 sub-families of 5-HT1 are hit by lsd, mescaline, and psilocin...but 25i-nbome does not hit any of them, therefore 80% of the brains receptors are left hanging...I can feel that 25i-nbome is not totally mind-manifesting, but LSD certainly is, as is mescaline and psilocin.


----------



## PureBass

has anyone received fake 25i?  I am not sure it it is HCL or Freebase or if my product is just inactive... any help would be great.  I have diluted 50mg in about 7ml didn't fully dissolve quickly so i added a few drops on lemon juice.. sort of dissolved all the way after heating it up slightly with a blow dryer.... put on blotter, dried with blow dryer.  is drying with a blow dryer bad idea? Has anyone herd of vendors selling freebase? I would assume that its hcl... but is a very fine white powder.


----------



## IamMe90

Most 25i on the scene right now is freebase because of its low price due to being produced wholesale in certain chinese labs.


----------



## IamMe90

tregar said:


> LSD and 25i-nbome are nothing alike imho, and it does have alot to do with what receptors they hit, i've spent months studying ki values of pages of psychedelics. Psychedelics like psilocin and mescaline and LSD are very special precise molecular keys, which just so happen to hit a very wide range of receptors in the brain. 5-HT1 receptors make up 80% of the brains 5-HT receptors, all 4 sub-families of 5-HT1 are hit by lsd, mescaline, and psilocin...but 25i-nbome does not hit any of them, therefore 80% of the brains receptors are left hanging...I can feel that 25i-nbome is not totally mind-manifesting, but LSD certainly is, as is mescaline and psilocin.



25i-NBOMe is extremely mind-manifesting for me, while LSD is not. No doubt receptor ki values have something to do with it, but you're trying to (futilely and needlessly) quantify a highly idiosyncratic experience. People react differently to different psychedelics due to quite a plethora of factors, including set, setting, metabolic processes in the body and quite a lot of other shit. If you want to be a slave to some numbers that, I repeat, I highly doubt you fully understand (even if you have read "pages" of ki values), go ahead, but I think it's silly.


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## tregar

IamMe90 said:


> 25i-NBOMe is extremely mind-manifesting for me, while LSD is not.


Are you sure you had real LSD? LSD is the molecule of Perfection, of course it is 100% mind-manifesting, but to each his own.


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## IamMe90

Yes, I have had lab analyzed LSD more than once, and quite high doses of it. I'm not a bumbling newbie, people react definitely to different drugs, and it's not the first time I've heard of this reaction. However, calling something a "chemical of Perfection" and "100% mind-manifesting..."


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## bluedolphin

tregar said:


> IamMe90 said:
> Are you sure you had real LSD? LSD is the molecule of Perfection, of course it is 100% mind-manifesting, but to each his own.



Not everyone would agree that "LSD is the molecule of Perfection".

In my opinion, that prize might have to go to H2O.

Or, if we had to pick a psychedelic, probably Psilocin


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## potito

@tregar: I remember reading you saying 25I and mescaline was the perfect combo? What happened? 

So far I think 25I is a very recreational psychedelic, but I agree that its specific receptor affinity makes it less "full spectrum" than LSD or psilocybin. But let's be honest, I think most of us would immensely enjoy this drug. It will probably make a great "party" psychedelic if you're into that kind of stuff. I know I will try it jamming with my buddies =) 
I'd still urge everyone to be cautious, even (especially?) with blotters. So many people are laying blotters, a fuck-up is bound to happen.


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## mechanizmz

Does anyone know what the % bio-availability of the salt versus the % bio-availability of the freebase form is? I'm torn between salt blotter and complexed freebase blotter. I've heard that since the chloride salt is already soluble it gets up to 85% absorption bucally yet freebase complexed with HPBCD not only makes the drug soluble but also speeds up the process of drug absorbtion through thicker bucal tissue giving it the same or better potency absorption yet quicker delivery to be recieved at the lipophilic membrane and released into the blood. Also, why is the ratio of moles HPBCD: 25i  2:1? (ie 9:1 mass ratio) I think the theory goes that if the drug is surrounded from two ends by two sugar rings, then it's fully complexed and that's good. From what i've read I would imagine that one ring surrounding each drug molecule would be sufficient to make the hydrophobic drug soluble. Then with only one ring pulling on the drug, the fatty membrane that absorbs it will have an easier time pulling it off from the HPBCD. Any thoughts/ criticisms/ contradictions?


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## tregar

potito said:


> @tregar: I remember reading you saying 25I and mescaline was the perfect combo? What happened?
> 
> So far I think 25I is a very recreational psychedelic, but I agree that its specific receptor affinity makes it less "full spectrum" than LSD or psilocybin. But let's be honest, I think most of us would immensely enjoy this drug. It will probably make a great "party" psychedelic if you're into that kind of stuff. I know I will try it jamming with my buddies =)
> I'd still urge everyone to be cautious, even (especially?) with blotters. So many people are laying blotters, a fuck-up is bound to happen.


 I agree, 25i is a very good recreational psychedelic, and heck, it might even combine at the 100 to 200 ug level (very very low) with 4-ho-dmt very well...i have yet to find out. One of the most important reasons for the use of psychedelics traditionally is for the Spiritual aspect, and I just find 4-ho-dmt, mescaline, and LSD to do that well. Mescaline still goes very well with 25i-nbome, just would caution to keep your mescaline dose below the 350mg level if at all possible, otherwise the body load (fear of over-stimulation, too much energy) of the combination becomes too much, we both found this out. Think of it this way: many people don't take more than 700mg of mescaline, in a similar way, when you combine high dose PEA mescaline with mid-dose PEA 25i-nbome, you really crank up the dosage so to speak PEA wise....it was not fun taking 350mg mescaline with 390ug of 25i-nbome....the 350mg of mescaline all by itself would have been plenty. Moderation is the key when doing combinations imho.


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## cryptix420

^ I was going to ask the same question as potito. I hadn't been here in a while an remember you preaching pretty hard about mescaline and 25i being the peak of the psychedelic experience. Not to hate, but perhaps a lesson to learn in regards to how you present your opinions. 

I've got a whole vial of this stuff but am 27 days into this weirdly pleasant sensation they call 'sobriety'. In the future I plan on trying it in combination with DPT though. Maybe that will crank up the spirit factor..


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## freedstar

I've been noticing these little 'cracks' and 'popping' sensations in my head whenever I smoke grass, ever since the last time I took 25i. It was only one very weak blotter and felt only threshold effects. I've used it in the past and never noticed anything that persisted like this. 

The sensation is something i've experienced before so i'm not too worried about it. I can't exactly recall when i've felt it, must of been on some psych or maybe MDMA.


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## MidwestCaveman

Will someone pm me who can help me convert my gram of freebase to hcl.  I have read most of the thread and still have some questions.


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## dawn wan

i'm beginning to think that all of this 'who are these people we are?' feeling you get on fens(some more than others) is just you experiencing a kind of psychoactive mental-climate that's never before been experienced by humans. on a mass mental level this is uncharted chemical territory. we know this individually, and feel strangers to ourselves knowing that on an energetic level we are strangers. i remember half way through a 15 ml dose of 2ci i was watching the morning news, and their faces looked so strange. but not distorted at all. they just looked alien. the way there mouths moved. i looked closer only to see perfectly symmetrical non-distorted faces. still i was laughing out loud at them. i remember switching back and forth in and out of their shoes. first just they were weird, then we were all weird. then just i was weird. then we were all weird. look forward to comparing to 25i next week, & will post my thoughts afterwards.


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## Cyanoide

What are your experiences with HPBCD complexed blotters? I have complexed 500ucg blotters but HcL too. I prefer HcL as I can make a solution that is exactly as strong as I want but as I have blotters too it would be nice if they work.


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## cryptix420

In regards to all the discussion about LSD being god's dick and the holy grail of all drugs (so often I hear this around here) let me state my experience:


While I've done LSD, mushrooms & DMT more than a few times, and absolutely loved & cherished each and every experience in it's own unique way, none of them have touched my life like 25i-NBOMe. I literally (and I do mean _literally_) saw my soul and the soul of my girlfriend whilst under the influence of 25i. Prior to that experience I had been struggling with my spirituality and was more or less an atheist (such a depressing outlook on life and the universe btw). 

I don't want to get to deep into it and start writing a trip report, but I basically saw my girlfriend's aura as these purple strands, they began reaching into me and into my mind, body, & soul. SOUL! What a novel concept it was. I do believe we all have souls now. This opened me up to so many positive ways of thinking (there is a reason for everything, there is a higher power/forces in the universe, etc.). I discusssed 25i with my friend who was also of the atheist view and considered LSD the best you could get. Once I gave him some potent 25i blotters he got back to me saying "I felt very spiritual during the trip, and I never experience that. You were right."


Anyway, let's not discount 25i as having some very, very serious therapeutic potential.


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## Seyer

So I went on a 2mg journey this past weekend. 1mg, followed by 1mg 75min later was a nice experience as well just not as overwhelming as the single 2mg dose. I was floored for the first 3 hours of that followed by some great energy that allowed me and my friend to embark on a walk in the fresh night air. Airplanes multiplying and bursting into flames, color changing houses, words forming from the patterns on the walls, hexagonal water ripples while it was raining. The hotel room we stayed at had a strip of fleur de lis at the top of the wall going across all the walls of the room, it ended up becoming a conveyer belt and shifting clockwise around the room. Wild visuals, definitely my favorite feature of this substance.


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## kah8

I know  MDAI is good in combos with dopaminergics but, I wonder if a combo 25INBOMe 500mcg + 100mg MDAI would be safe and effective...


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## bluedolphin

kah8 said:


> I know  MDAI is good in combos with dopaminergics but, I wonder if a combo 25INBOMe 500mcg + 100mg MDAI would be safe and effective...



I've never tried MDAI but I can't imagine mixing 25i-nbome with an entactogen... or really much of anything. To be honest all this talk of mixing it with mescaline or other psychedelics to make a "complete" experience also sounds rediculous to me. Not rediculous as in stupid or insane, but rediculous as in it just doesn't make sense to me. 25i-nbome is a complete trip. It is not meant to recreate LSD or mescaline or any other psychedelic. It is what it is. And for me it was pretty darn intense, visually spectacular, had somewhat of a strange religous vibe to it and was also somewhat confusing, though paradoxically clear-headed, in my only attempt which was 2mg freebase insufflated.

If 25i-nbome by itself, alone, isn't enough for you, maybe it's just not the right psychedelic for you.

All this discussion strikes me as odd. When DOC became available, nobody spoke of needing to mix it with mescaline or 4-ho-DMT, etc. 25i-nbome strikes me as having similarities to DOC and similarities to LSD, as well as being unique in some very interesting ways.

It also has the potential to last upwards of 48 hours, I found out. Be careful with this stuff, don't judge it as imperfect and attempt unwise combinations of drugs to "perfect" or "complete" it. I would suggest leaving it alone and moving on if it doesn't satisfy you.


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## cryptix420

I have combined 25i with MXE, DXM, and MDMA. All 3 were positive trips.


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## Typewritermonkey

Does anyone have an affirmative answer if it is worth it at all to complex 25i HCL to HPBCD if I already have the HPBCD?  My 25i HCL is dissolved into ethanol now.

Thanks.


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## Transform

There is no evidence to suggest it's better.


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## PsychedelicDoctor

A number of weeks ago, I took 1 blotter of HPBCD-complexed 25I @ 500mcg.  I held it under my tongue for about 30 minutes until I felt my first alert, being careful to swallow the build-up of saliva once or twice during this time.  Had a great experience, heavier than I expected at this dose.

Yesterday morning, I started the day off with 22mg 4-HO-MET in the morning.  At around +6hrs, I proceed to place another 25I blotter between my upper lip and gum, being careful not to swallow any saliva (there was much less with this placement) and swallowed a 20mg 4-AcO-DMT capsule.  I definitely wound up feeling the 4-AcO, albeit not as strongly as if I hadn't dosed earlier.  The 25I trip never really produced however, even though I had held the blotter there for 2 hours this time.  

What is people's experience with sublingual vs. buccal blotter administration?  What is there experience with this substance on the tail-end of another 5-HT agonist experience?  Was the substance simply not absorbed?  Had a great time regardless but I want to know if, in the future, do I really need to deal with the hassle of sublingual absorption with a mouth full of saliva to make this happen?


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## JaneDoe2290

Sincerest apologies if this is already in the thread, but I used the search function and was unable to find an answer. How does one convert freebase to HCL? A link to an idiot's guide or a thorough post would be much appreciated. Will contribute trip reports as soon as I'm able to get research underway.


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## zn13bt

That's kind of like asking how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich......

ACID + BASE = SALT


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## kah8

Well I tried the combo(500mcg 25INBOMe + 200mg  MDAI) last night, no synergy, mdai needs a dopamine push.


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## SONN

Psychedelic Doctor, was the blotter that didn't work complexed? and did you taste it? I had the HCL and I didn't even worry about swallowing saliva much every time I did it and it worked although I never did it with a heavy tolerance.


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## Vader

Seeing as more than one has asked...

 Take your freebase 25I
 Add dilute HCl until all 25I is dissolved.
 Allow water and HCl to evaporate.
 Collect 25I HCl.
That's all there is to it.


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## cryptix420

PsychedelicDoctor said:


> A number of weeks ago, I took 1 blotter of HPBCD-complexed 25I @ 500mcg.  I held it under my tongue for about 30 minutes until I felt my first alert, being careful to swallow the build-up of saliva once or twice during this time.  Had a great experience, heavier than I expected at this dose.
> 
> Yesterday morning, I started the day off with 22mg 4-HO-MET in the morning.  At around +6hrs, I proceed to place another 25I blotter between my upper lip and gum, being careful not to swallow any saliva (there was much less with this placement) and swallowed a 20mg 4-AcO-DMT capsule.  I definitely wound up feeling the 4-AcO, albeit not as strongly as if I hadn't dosed earlier.  The 25I trip never really produced however, even though I had held the blotter there for 2 hours this time.
> 
> What is people's experience with sublingual vs. buccal blotter administration?  What is there experience with this substance on the tail-end of another 5-HT agonist experience?  Was the substance simply not absorbed?  Had a great time regardless but I want to know if, in the future, do I really need to deal with the hassle of sublingual absorption with a mouth full of saliva to make this happen?



Sounds like you're just experiencing tolerance. I felt no difference between sublingual/buccal.


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## TheAppleCore

Vader said:


> Seeing as more than one has asked...
> 
> Take your freebase 25I
> Add dilute HCl until all 25I is dissolved.
> Allow water and HCl to evaporate.
> Collect 25I HCl.
> That's all there is to it.



I dunno why anyone would bother making the HCl. The citrate is easy -- no evaporation required, and citric acid can be easily found at your local supermarket, whereas pure HCl sans yucky impurities is a bit difficult to locate.


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## PsychedelicDoctor

SONN said:


> Psychedelic Doctor, was the blotter that didn't work complexed? and did you taste it? I had the HCL and I didn't even worry about swallowing saliva much every time I did it and it worked although I never did it with a heavy tolerance.



Yes, both blotters were from the same sheet, both HPBCD-complexed.  



cryptix420 said:


> Sounds like you're just experiencing tolerance. I felt no difference between sublingual/buccal.



That's good to know.  Sublingual was such a pain in the ass and buccal was so much easier to just go about my business while absorbing.  I was surprised how significant the tolerance was considering I've done things like this before at festivals with wanton piggery.  Wound up a great second experience anyway, but I was hoping it'd blow my socks off.


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## JaneDoe2290

zn13bt said:


> That's kind of like asking how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich......
> 
> ACID + BASE = SALT



Sorry, I have zero chemistry experience whatsoever. I will be taking chem classes eventually, but until then, treat me as if I know nothing about chemistry, which is pretty close to the truth.



Vader said:


> Seeing as more than one has asked...
> 
> Take your freebase 25I
> Add dilute HCl until all 25I is dissolved.
> Allow water and HCl to evaporate.
> Collect 25I HCl.
> That's all there is to it.






TheAppleCore said:


> I dunno why anyone would bother making the HCl. The citrate is easy -- no evaporation required, and citric acid can be easily found at your local supermarket, whereas pure HCl sans yucky impurities is a bit difficult to locate.



Can either of you explain this in Layman's terms? What exactly do I need to do, step-by-step? Why is the citrate superior? Does it have the same bioavailability as HCL? Would I need to complex it with HPBCD, or would it be just as good as HCL?


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## zn13bt

bluedolphin said:


> Be careful with this stuff, don't judge it as imperfect and attempt unwise combinations of drugs to "perfect" or "complete" it. I would suggest leaving it alone and moving on if it doesn't satisfy you.



I have to agree with this. The only "drug" you might want to combine with it is a nice mug of spicy hot chocolate, at the end of the trip to combat any vasoconstriction. Otherwise it is more than complete in itself. I took 1mg today and it was a whole other level beyond my last trip with it, at 800ug. I don't see any need for me to take it higher or combine it with anything else.



JaneDoe2290 said:


> Sorry, I have zero chemistry experience whatsoever. I will be taking chem classes eventually, but until then, treat me as if I know nothing about chemistry, which is pretty close to the truth.



All I was saying was, you have the freebase, so all you need to do is dissolve it in an acid to make the corresponding salt. If you want the HCl salt, then add hydrochloric acid to it. If you want the citrate salt, then add lemon juice (= citric acid). If you want the acetate, then vinegar (= acetic acid). I flunked chemistry in high school, so if I can figure this out then anyone can.  But this same question keeps getting asked every few posts on this thread for some reason, all by different people, I don't know why.

The latter two acids are safer than HCl because it's easy to get them in a form that's safe for ingestion, and if you use more acid than is needed for creating the salt, it won't be harmful to have a little extra citric or acetic acid on your mucous membranes, unlike HCl.


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## JaneDoe2290

zn13bt said:


> All I was saying was, you have the freebase, so all you need to do is dissolve it in an acid to make the corresponding salt. If you want the HCl salt, then add hydrochloric acid to it. If you want the citrate salt, then add lemon juice (= citric acid). If you want the acetate, then vinegar (= acetic acid). I flunked chemistry in high school, so if I can figure this out then anyone can.  But this same question keeps getting asked every few posts on this thread for some reason, all by different people, I don't know why.
> 
> The latter two acids are safer than HCl because it's easy to get them in a form that's safe for ingestion, and if you use more acid than is needed for creating the salt, it won't be harmful to have a little extra citric or acetic acid on your mucous membranes, unlike HCl.



Probably because more people are beginning to research the chemical, it's become quite popular from what I see online, and it's easy to have blotters lying around than liquid for dosing, ya know? Let's say I go with the citrate salt. Is the bioavailabilty and stability = to that of the HCL? I'd rather do the citrate, since I am new to this, and want to be as safe as possible. Also, would I just go to any grocery store and pick up some organic lemon juice? Or what? Nothing specific other than 100% lemon juice? Just want to be certain I don't mess anything up. Sorry if this is all remedial to most of you guys, but like I said, I couldn't find much information on it, just people asking the same questions I am. At least this way, people in the future should be able to find these posts and won't have to ask :D So, am I letting the lemon juice evaporate, and it will leave me with the citrate salt, or will the Nbome freebase just convert in the liquid to a citrate salt and remain liquid?


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## jaurk

SONN said:


> I suppose that me making a youtube video trip report is a bit unsafe in terms of maintaining the legality of these prized substances, but I only posted it after I saw that there was a neurosoup vid about the NBOMe series. If you guys really think I should remove it I will. In the meantime, I will change the title of the vid from 'overdose' to 'unmeasured vape dose.' just to shift away from the negative connotation.



That's a really stupid video, please remove it.
Or at least, upload something useful.

I read in the comment section:


> My son just heard his classmate was removed from a ventilator Saturday﻿ due to overdosing on this 25i......please leave this stuff alone my heart is aching for you already
> Search Youtube for In memory of Tyler Davidson
> butrflylover 1 month ago





> I go to Midlothian High School, and I knew Tyler Davidson. Him overdosing on 25i is a LIE. he died from FIRES (Infection Related Eptylectic Seizures). He had a viral fever that spread﻿ to his brain which triggered his seizures. It has nothing to do with drugs.
> AGeekWithAShotgun in reply to butrflylover 2 weeks ago



could be lies, anyways it's interesting.


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## PureBass

How important is it to use a magnetic steering device to complex hpbcd  ?  swims buddy attempted to complex 25i then put on blotter for personal use, he did the 9-1 ratio but only used etoh... is distilled water recommended or not? or a blend of both, ive seen various opinions on this thread. One swims buddy dried the blotter he noticed a clear glossy coat covering front and back... is this normal  ? Thanks for any help


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## JaneDoe2290

JaneDoe2290 said:


> Probably because more people are beginning to research the chemical, it's become quite popular from what I see online, and it's easy to have blotters lying around than liquid for dosing, ya know? Let's say I go with the citrate salt. Is the bioavailabilty and stability = to that of the HCL? I'd rather do the citrate, since I am new to this, and want to be as safe as possible. Also, would I just go to any grocery store and pick up some organic lemon juice? Or what? Nothing specific other than 100% lemon juice? Just want to be certain I don't mess anything up. Sorry if this is all remedial to most of you guys, but like I said, I couldn't find much information on it, just people asking the same questions I am. At least this way, people in the future should be able to find these posts and won't have to ask :D So, am I letting the lemon juice evaporate, and it will leave me with the citrate salt, or will the Nbome freebase just convert in the liquid to a citrate salt and remain liquid?



Can someone please help me with this? I don't mean to sound impatient, but I've got the freebase just lying around in a baggie and I don't know how stable the stuff is, I don't want it to degrade.

*How much HCL do I add to a gram of 25i-nbome freebase to convert it to the HCL salt? Do I just pour the HCL on the freebase in any container, like say a graduated cylinder, or should I use something specific? How do I evaporate it, and how long does that take? If someone could just answer this really quick I'd be very grateful. Thanks*


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## Seyer

PureBass said:


> How important is it to use a magnetic steering device to complex hpbcd  ?  *swim*s buddy attempted to complex 25i then put on blotter for personal use, he did the 9-1 ratio but only used etoh... is distilled water recommended or not? or a blend of both, ive seen various opinions on this thread. One *swim*s buddy dried the blotter he noticed a clear glossy coat covering front and back... is this normal  ? Thanks for any help


The use of SWIM is discouraged as per the forum guidelines.


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## twelvesevndi

JaneDoe2290 said:


> Can someone please help me with this? I don't mean to sound impatient, but I've got the freebase just lying around in a baggie and I don't know how stable the stuff is, I don't want it to degrade.
> 
> *How much HCL do I add to a gram of 25i-nbome freebase to convert it to the HCL salt? Do I just pour the HCL on the freebase in any container, like say a graduated cylinder, or should I use something specific? How do I evaporate it, and how long does that take? If someone could just answer this really quick I'd be very grateful. Thanks*




just use vinegar. doesn't matter how much really. just add exactly 1 mL at a time til it disolves.... why are you going to evaporate? you need to keep it in solution to measure doses.


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## Spacemonkey5000

So i ordered 50mg of 25i hcl from a trusted source...

I have a few q´s though


1. Is there any idea to complex this or will it work ok? i would prefer to be able to use bucal ingestion but if snorted is alot better sure.

2. i will put this in a small dropper but what should i use for long term storage? i can´t get any alkohol over 40% here but would vodka work?


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## twelvesevndi

1. it works good without complex. 
buccal is fine. maybe it is a little less potent but it will last longer. 

2. 40% etoh is fine. you can put it in the fridge or freezer to be extra sure.
one thing i have been thinking recently is that it is very important to keep your long-term solution in a beaker or something metered so you can watch for evaporation. keep a piece of paper with the solution that indicates the amount of liquid that was in the beaker last time you used it. 
(i think someone put some tips about this in the DOC thread)

it is best to make a weak solution so that you can easily dose in 100 ug increments until you know what your sensitivity to this drug is. it is very variable among people.


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## JaneDoe2290

twelvesevndi said:


> just use vinegar. doesn't matter how much really. just add exactly 1 mL at a time til it disolves.... why are you going to evaporate? you need to keep it in solution to measure doses.



Well I have a whole gram of the stuff and I wanna put it into blotters. Before it gets brought up, I don't intend on selling or distributing it in any way, this is just for my personal life-time supply. I only bought a gram because it was dirt cheap and figured what the hell to having a life time supply of a psychedelic, ya know? Anyways, *if I dilute 1 gram into vinegar, how would I measure it out from that liquid to make doses of 500 mics per blotter?* How stable is the acetic acid, and how good is the bioavailability in relation to HCL or Citrate? Thanks for the replies, they are most helpful. I just want to make sure everything is done correctly and safely.


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## Vader

Work out how much fluid a sheet of blotter holds. You want your solution to have that volume and contain 500ug x the number of individual blotters on the sheet. Then absorb it into the sheet of blotter. I've never laid blotter, though, and I'm sure there's more to it than that. For one, I don't know how you avoid the doses at the edges of the sheet ending up more potent than those in the middle. Please, everyone, be careful, if you're not 100% confident that you know what you're doing then don't do it.


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## JaneDoe2290

Vader said:


> Work out how much fluid a sheet of blotter holds. You want your solution to have that volume and contain 500ug x the number of individual blotters on the sheet. Then absorb it into the sheet of blotter. I've never laid blotter, though, and I'm sure there's more to it than that. For one, I don't know how you avoid the doses at the edges of the sheet ending up more potent than those in the middle. Please, everyone, be careful, if you're not 100% confident that you know what you're doing then don't do it.



Thanks for the info. Would love to hear from somebody who's actually laid blotter with this stuff though. As I said, I want to be as safe as possible. Obviously I don't want to harm myself, so I'm taking every cautionary step possible. If someone could chime in and help me out a bit more, that'd be great.


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## Incunabula

There's a vendor ,on a forum that shall not be named here, who is about to sell 25i-nbome hydro-citrate/acetate dropper bottles. 100 drops pr. bottle.
Anyways, he claims that it's in the hydrocitrate form, which supposedly should increase oral activity by 70%. Could some body with a little chemistry knowledge explain what hydrocitrate/acetate is? And could this possibly have anything to it?

Here's what the vendor says:
"if one was to use a hydrocitrate/acetate solution on a oral test on a labrat (not legal to do in the u.s. due to FDA restrictions on animal testing mind you, so not recomended) then one would find that 25i in hydro-citrate/acetate form is about 70% orally available rather then buccal or sublingual as even the best complexed freebases are. "



Vader said:


> Work out how much fluid a sheet of blotter holds. You want your solution to have that volume and contain 500ug x the number of individual blotters on the sheet. Then absorb it into the sheet of blotter. I've never laid blotter, though, and I'm sure there's more to it than that. For one, I don't know how you avoid the doses at the edges of the sheet ending up more potent than those in the middle. Please, everyone, be careful, if you're not 100% confident that you know what you're doing then don't do it.


As you point out yourself, using that teknique to lay blotters will cause them to be unevenly laid. Some of them are going to be a lot stronger than others.

I'd say the only way to get them completely evenly laid is too use a uL micropipetor. Unless you make the blotters really big, like 5 cm X 5 cm, then I guess you could use a syringe and lay 1 ml on it.


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## Solipsis

And we continue with a new edition of this B&D: no. 2 !

*Link: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/617972-The-Big-amp-Dandy-25I-NBOMe-Thread-(2nd-edition)*


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