# Speed/Meth tolerance prevention/reduction [long]



## DaG

*Meth/speed and Opiates Tolerance Prevention/Reduction*

Almost everyone's opinion on using speed/amphetamine/meth is that the best highs were the first two (or three). That is also the case with me. 
When I first tried speed I've used very small amount (I'd say it was around 50 mg) of rather pure amphetamine and damn, it was the best day of my life :] I remember that I was euphoric for around 12 hours, I couldn't stop talking, the music sounded extremely well, I was full of motivation and never felt better in my whole life. Afterwards I had no comedown. 
My second attempt wasn't as fantastic, but also wonderful. Since then I've never achieved that extremely euphoric sensation with my head tingling from pleasure and my insides screaming "DAMN I FEEL FUCKING AWESOME!!!". After a year of my speed usage and trying doses even four times as high as the 1st amount I tried - I never came close to that feeling. Sure, I can be motivated, energetic, have a great time during the tweak, be very sociable,  but it is still not like during the first two times. I'm aware that amphetamine tolerance develops very quickly and stays at that level for a long period of time (even when taking breaks), so lately I've been doing some online reading on that subject. 

Amphetamine tolerance is caused by excess Ca++ influx through the NMDA receptor gated calcium channels on the outer membranes of the dopamine cells bodies in the ventral tegental area, one of two areas in the brain with concentrations of dopamine producing neurons. 
As alluded to above, taking an appropriate *NMDA (partial) antagonist* will prevent the development of a tolerance for the effects of an amphetamine or amphetamine-like stimulant.  Also, by preventing excess Ca++ influx into the neuron, an NMDA antagonist will prevent associated brain alterations and damage (excitotoxicity).

Studies have indicated that amphetamine tolerance is prevented by exogenous or endogenous agents that are able to inhibit excess Ca++ influx into the neuron through the gated calcium channels on the neuronal membrane that have NMDA subtype glutamate receptors.*Glutamate* , the body’s major excitatory neurotransmitter, opens the gated calcium ion channels upon attaching to the NMDA receptor.  A number of other receptors are also expressed on these calcium channels, which, when stimulated, either facilitate or inhibit glutamate’s action. 

It is also important that agents that inhibit calcium channel activity not also cause deficient Ca++ influx.  For example, ketamine is a full NMDA receptor antagonist, that prevents excess Ca++ influx and amphetamine tolerance.  But being a full NMDA antagonist, ketamine in excessive doses results in deficient Ca++ influx. This could be one of the reasons it leaves K-user in a state of disassociation.

So basically we have following NDMA antagonists:
1. Memantine (Akatinol/Axura)
2. Acamprosate (Campral)
3. Amantadine (Symmetrel/Amantix)
4. Magnesium (supplement)
5. Dextrometorphan/DXM
6. Ketamine
7. PCP
(funny that 5,6,7 are recreational drugs)

Two of them have minimal (or none) side effects and have been identified (and verified by one anecdotal person, which has been taking amphetamine-type stimulants and NDMA antagonist with same beneficial effects for a period of 2 years) as preventing amphetamine tolerance: 1) Memantine and 2) Acamprosate.  

1) Memantine is a partial NMDA antagonist that effectively puts an upper limit on Ca++ influx without compromising healthy levels of Ca++ influx.  Memantine is not available in the US at this time.  It is in stage 3 trials for Alzheimer’s disease.  US approval may come within the next 2 years.  Memantine is now approved in the European Union for the treatment of Alzheimer’s. It has been marketed in Germany since 1978 for the treatment of dementia and other cognitive disorders. It comes in 10mg tablets.  One or two tablets/day are sufficient to prevent amphetamine tolerance, overactivity of the NMDA receptor and consequent free radical stress inside the neuron. The most expensive option though.

2) Acamprosate (n-acetyl-homo-taurine) analogue of the amino acid taurine. Alternatively, it may be termed as a carrier molecule for taurine, that allows taurine to readily cross the blood brain barrier, unlike taurine itself.  Taurine is a NMDA receptor antagonist.  Acamprosate is an investigational drug in the US, undergoing stage 2 (?) trials for the treatment of alcoholics.  It is available in most European countries as a treatment for alcoholism, with great efficiacy. Cheaper than memantine, however efficiacy should be the same.

3) Amantadine, originally used in the treatment and prophylaxis of influenza infection and drug-induced Parkinsonism, also blocks NMDA receptors. Besides it is beneficial in traumatic head injury, dementia, multiple sclerosis,cocaine withdrawal and depression. Amantadine appears to act through several pharmacological mechanisms, none of which have been identified as the one chief mode of action. It is a dopaminergic, noradrenergic and serotonergic substance, blocks monoaminoxidase A and NMDA receptors, and seems to raise beta-endorphin/beta-lipotropin levels. I couldn't find what amount of the drug should be used to block NDMA. Cheaper than Acamprosate. No one has tested it yet, but I think it would be a good choice.

4) Magnesium is also an NMDA antagonist.  Most people are deficient in magnesium, and stress reduces magnesium levels. Whether or not one takes amphetamines, magnesium supplementation is very important for mood, general well-being and keeping stress levels under control.  It is also important to take magnesium in efficient form, with adequate bioavailability. The best type is magnesium glycinate (chelated) with bioavailability at around 80%. Second best is magnesium carbonate with (I don't remember exactly) bioavailability at little above 30%. Supplemented magnesium should be at 500 mg/day level. Also there is a study which shows that children who use amphetamine-type stimulants have bad magnesium/calcium balance. Calcium levels stay the same with amphetamine usage, but magnesium levels drop. 

5) DXM - definitely the cheapest option of all NDMA antagonists, but I'd rather use Memantine or Acamprosate. Although, I've heard anecdotes that doses as low as 70 mg/day are enough to block NDMA - I couldn't find those amounts in abstracts/studies.

6) and 7) I wouldn't use as an amphetamine tolerance prevention. Ketamine for its known effects (you wouldn't want to be in a K-hole during the tweak just for the sake of prevention tolerance)
PCP - this one doesn't need explanation. It has nasty side-effects and I've mentioned it just because it is a NDMA antagonist. I wouldn't touch it even if it was dirt cheap.


So basically combination of partial NDMA antagonist and amphetamines should prevent tolerance. But I'm curious whether NDMA antagonists are able to *reduce* amphetamine tolerance. If yes then my goal would be to reduce it as far as to the point of first speed experience :] Right now, I have high amphetamine tolerance (too much tweaking during short time in the summer) so I will be using Acamprosate to try and reduce my tolerance. I'll post my results here.
And sorry for the length of the post - but I just wanted to write down everything I researched during last few days (I skipped PubMed abstracts).
Take care.


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## Darkmoonlight

dag, I appreciate youor entry so much. my only question to u is, do u have to take this with the dose of the amphetamine or can u take it apart from it, and what doses of magnesium exactly?
this always begs to question whether or not jaw clenching (subtly known to be less intense while taking magnesium) is due to the influx of calcium. damn, and thanks again.


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## GreedyGut's

Excellent post Dag !! Thanks for sharing your research !!
during your research did you come across any other negative effects other than tolerance from the excess Ca++ influx!! 
B interested in what results you get from Acamprosate ! any reverse in tolerance and/or negatives sounds like something I'd lik too know about. LoL
which magnesium supplement r u using ? magnesium glycinate ?
Keep us posted


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## bouncer

Here's good post from another board (www.dr-bob.org) :


> I'm not concerned with development of tolerance as I've been able to maintain a constant effect from amphetamines for months now without raising dose. In all fairness, I do take 60mg Delsym (dextromethorphan polystirex) twice daily, which is quite likely preventing tolerance. My pdoc endorses the use of DXM to all his stimulant-treated patients now, ever since I brought it to his attention months ago. He's seeing many patients finally stabilized on doses of amphetamines whereas they used to escalate monthly or even weekly. It doesn't seem to be working as well for his patients taking methylphenidate.


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## Schizomanic

^^You are lucky my friend, I told my pdoc about it and basically just shrugged it off and told me to just stick to my adderall.


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## bouncer

Actually I (DaG was my old nick) have been using three things to keep my amphetamine tolerance. 
3 NDMA antagonists: DXM (60mg/day), Magnesium Glycinate (300-500mg/day), L-Theanine (100mg/day). 

The last NDMA antagonist hasn't been mentioned in the above post, because I didn't know about it at that time. Here's some info:

1)
Inhibition by theanine of binding of [3H]AMPA, [3H]kainate, and [3H]MDL 105,519 to glutamate receptors.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12596867&dopt=Abstract

2) 
Inhibition of glutamate transporter by theanine enhances the therapeutic efficacy of doxorubicin.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11325559&dopt=Abstract

3)
Theanine as a glutamate antagonist at a crayfish neuromuscular junction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=679005&dopt=Abstract


There are also studies showing that L-Theanine increases dopamine (and to a lesser degree 5HT) , especially in striatum, hypothalamus and hippocampus. (DA is depleted after amphetamine stops working - so this combination could be of significance as far as "comedown")
In addition, L-Theanine shows neuro-protective activity, see study below.

1)
Effect of theanine, r-glutamylethylamide, on brain monoamines and striatal dopamine release in conscious rats.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...eve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9566605&dopt=Abstract

2)
Neuroprotective effects of the green tea components theanine and catechins.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entr...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12499631&dopt=Abstract


Many net resources also mention that L-Theanine increases GABA levels (just like benzodiazepines). I couldn't find any abstracts/studies about it though.
All in all - it is a great supplement, costs not so much at BAC in powdered form.


Well, as far as my results with my regime my Adderall usage has been steady at 40mg/day (most of the time, not always - I like to use more than what is needed for my ADD, for rec purposes of course ;-)

I also know 2 guys who have used NDMA antagonists successfully for keeping the amphetamine tolerance at steady level.
Ok just my 2 cents.


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## bouncer

Here is some *great* update on the usage of DXM for amphetamine tolerance. Seems like the cheapest NDMA antagonist might be enough for the blockade of tolerance.

Check this out (the first part was written by the poster from another board):



I've been using Delsym (dextromethorphan polistirex, DXM, a sustained-release preparation of DXM) to prevent amphetamine-tolerance as long as I've been taking them. So that would be about 8-9 months of use without breaks, and the proof is in the pudding.  

I haven't developed any tolerance whatsoever to any of the drug's effects. The dose started at 30mg/day (of the XR formulation), but an extra 30mg capsule later in the day was added onto that after a few weeks because they seemed to wear off too quickly for me. I stayed on that until a couple months ago when I switched to the immediate-release formulation, which I find lasts about eight hours per dose (quite surprisingly!), with a come-up beginning at approximately T+0:15 hours post-dose, a pronounced effect at T+1:00 pursuant, the peak at T+2:00 through T+7:00, followed by a gentle comedown which ends about T+9:00. The only difference I find between the IR and XR formulations of the drug is actually that the IR form lacks the mid-dose sluggishness and consequent "second-wind". So one dose at 6AM *really* kicks in at 8AM, beginning to wear off at 1PM; taking the second dose at noon times everything just perfectly. If I'm planning on making rounds of the bars with friends at night or practicing/playing a gig with my band, I just pop an extra 30mg in the early evening as needed.

But back to the Delsym -- I used to take a full teaspoon of the 12-hour suspension twice daily (that's equivalent to 15mg Robitussin Maximum Strength Cough every six hours). This dose completely prevented any development of tolerance and *may* have even allayed some of the nastier stim side effects by antagonizing some excitatory neurotransmission via glutamate et al. For six weeks now though I've been taking Prozac at 40mg daily, which (along with its ultra-long-half-life metabolite, norfluoxetine) is among the most potent inhibitors of cytochrome P450 IID6 (aka debrisoquine 4-hydroxylase), along with quinidine and paroxetine. CYPIID6 is responsible for the metabolism via O-demethylation (removal of the methyl group at the sixth position in the structure) of dextromethorphan, which primarily acts upon PCP2 and sigma receptors, to the potent NMDA antagonist dextrorphan (DXO; the dextroratory form of the opioid levorphan, which is about equipotent to morphine). Thus I now take twice as much Delsym to ensure a more normal ratio of DXM to DXO in the blood. My doctor and all reseach I've done has assured me that this is perfectly safe (i.e. not nearly a dose sufficient to cause Olney's lesions, etc.). I would use another NMDA antagonist like Emenda (memantine HCl) if it were available to me, even if simply to avoid the simple carbohydrates in the syrup, but Medicaid will only cover three prescriptions monthly now that I've turned 21. I may, on the other hand, finally put my lab scale to good use and order pure dextrorphan tartrate from Sigma-Aldrich (0.5 grams = $63.30) so as to avoid the unnecessary PCP2/sigma activation associated with DXM. Another chemical I'm interested in is Merck, Sharpe and Dome Inc.'s (+)-MK-801 hydrogen maleate (dizocilpine hydrogen maleate), for which the Sigma-Aldrich "Cell Signalling and Neuroscience" catalog provides the following synopsis: "Highly potent and selective non-competitive NMDA receptor antagonist that acts at the NMDA receptor-operated ion channel as an open channel blocker. Inhibits behavioral sensitization to psychostimulants and ethanol." The cost is prohibitive, though -- $43.10/5mg. A more plausible idea may be any one of the following:

Ifenprodil tartrate salt (alpha-(4-Hydroxyphenyl)beta-methyl-4-benzyl-1-piperidineethanol tartrate salt) -- "NMDA antagonist acting at the polyamine site; neuroprotective agent; alpha-adrenergic central and peripheral vasodilator; alpha-2-adrenergic receptor ligand."

Arcaine sulfate salt (1,4-Diguanidinobutane sulfate salt) -- "Potent antagonist at the polyamine site of the NMDA receptor."

7-Chlorokynurenic acid (7-Chloro-4-hydroxyquinoline-2-carboxylic acid; 7-Cl-KYNA) -- "Potent NMDA receptor antagonist; antagonizes the strychnine-insensitive glycine site of the NMDA receptor; prevents neurodegeneration produced by quinolinic acid."

5,7-Dichlorokynurenic acid (5,7-Dichloro-4-hydroxyquinoline-2-carboxylic acid) -- "Potent excitatory amino acid receptor antagonist; active at the strychnine-insensitive glycine binding site of the NMDA receptor."

d-3-Methoxy-N-methylmorphinanhydrobromide -- "Allosteric antagonist at NMDA-controlled ion channels; antagonist at voltage-dependent channels."

Pentamidine isethionate salt (1,5-Bis(p-amidinophenoxy)pentane bis(2-hydroxyethanesulfonate salt)) -- "Neuroprotective; inhibits constitutive nitric acid synthase in the brain; NMDA glutamate receptor antagonist. Antimicrobial against 'Pneumocystis carinii'."

Also important, I feel, is protection from neurotoxic levels of homocysteine -- I take quite a few vitamin/mineral/amino acid/herbal supplements, but B-12 and its cofactors are undoubtedly most important for this (not to mention avoidance of neurotoxic excitatory substances such as monosodium glutamate and aspartame).


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## bouncer

And here's some scientific info on NDMA, DXM, Morphine & whole process of tolerance development etc. ( not only NDMA antagonists block amphetamine tolerance, but in theory they could also block opiate tolerance).



~Dextromethorphan Potentiates the Antinociceptive Effects of Morphine and the delta-Opioid Agonist SNC80 in Squirrel Monkeys

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/300/2/435

~Clinically Available NMDA Receptor Antagonists Memantine and Dextromethorphan Reverse Existing Tolerance to the Antinociceptive Effects of Morphine in Mice

http://opioids.com/nmda/memantine.html

~The Uses and Psychoactive Properties of Dextromethorphan

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_67.html

~MorphiDex (MS:DM) Double-Blind, Multiple-Dose Studies in Chronic Pain Patients

http://opioids.com/morphidex/


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## DoctorDoctor

*Magnesium Taurate*

The best and only stop on the internet for any information you will ever  need on magnesium is : http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#kefir 

The best form of magnesium if Magnesium Taurate, it is SO important to supplement with Mag Taurate whether or not you use amphetamines.  BUT - if you are a tweaker, the supplementation of Magnesium Taurate is *tremendously* beneficial: Here is some info from that site:

"When I purchased my first bottle of magnesium glycinate, it was not from intelligence that I chose that particular compound of magnesium. It was just what was available on the shelf at the store I visited. After considerable research, I found that the store provided the second best form of magnesium that I could have chosen to treat depression. Only magnesium taurate (a form of magnesium that decreases chances of diarrhea) is superior to all other forms of magnesium. Both glycine and taurine have been used to effectively treat depression. Also taurine (the ligand in magnesium taurate) has been shown to be low or absent in 100 percent of people with depression and chronic pain according to Shealy. 

        I quit taking and quit recommending magnesium glycinate because glycine, in the doses taken and while taken for a protracted period of time, will damage its delicate balance with another amino acid, taurine. Taurine is vital to mental and cardiac health and must not be disturbed, while glycine is ubiquitous and appears highly unlikely to be bothered by too much taurine. For example, diets with up to 1% as taurine had no adverse effect on test animals. Long term high doses of glycinate will eventually cause ever worsening cardiac arrhythmias and will never allow total recovery from depression or other mood disorders, although most people will find that it works miracles for them in the short-term. Also, both magnesium and taurine have been proven to be low in depression in about 80% and 100% of cases respectively. Read Shealy's article starting here. See sentence immediately before the Discussion section. This does not mean magnesium glycinate is harmful in the short- or near-term, it just means one shouldn't use it year in and year out, and it must be IMMEDIATELY stopped if side effects, particularly cardiac arrhythmias (PVCs and/or PACs) occur. 

        Glycine (the second component of magnesium glycinate) chelates (removes) mercury from the body, and may be superior to even magnesium taurate for people with heavy metal poisoning in the short- or near-term. Citric acid and cysteine also remove mercury and appear safer for long term use than glycine. The first stability constants for glycine, cysteine and citric acid are in the log 10 to log 14 range, which are vastly stronger bindings than can be broken by any natural biology or chemistry event occurring in the body. Glycine is a non-essential amino acid, but for people with mercury poisoning, it, cysteine and citric acid may be highly important. Because of these amazing chelating, sequestering or binding powers, if they reacted with mercury in any form in the body, they should be able to bind them much more tightly, making mercury biologically unavailable in the body. Perhaps, consumption of large amounts of these amino acids from high quality protein sources, and consumption of citrus help protect from the toxic effects of mercury. Mercury is extremely toxic and can cause depression and many symptoms associated with depression. These symptoms include, insomnia, nervousness, memory loss, dizziness, anxiety, loss of self-confidence, irritability, drowsiness, weight loss, tremors, paraesthesia (numbness and tingling), hallucinations, headaches, fatigue, muscle weakness, hearing difficulties, emotional instability, skin inflammation, incoordination and kidney damage. The common areas where mercury is found are: auto exhaust emissions, used motor oils, pesticides, fertilizers, dental amalgams (silver fillings), drinking water (tap and well), leather tanning chemicals, felt, bleached flour, processed foods, fabric softeners, fish (tuna, swordfish, shark, king mackerel and tile fish), calomel (mercury chloride contaminant in talc, body powder), paint pigments and solvents, cinnabar (mercury sulfide - used in red jewelry items), inorganic mercury laxatives, mercurochrome/methiolate anti-infectives, cosmetics (mascara), floor waxes and polishes, wood preservatives, water plumbing & piping, adhesives, batteries, used air conditioner filters (better here than in the air), broken thermometers, and some electronic equipment. Consequently, supplementing several grams of these chelating agents daily is a good idea regardless of current mental health."

Basically, the amount of magnesium that we ingest is not as important as the amount we absorb.  Most absorbable: Taurate.

I am using about 1000mg / day of Magnesium Taurate.  Magnesium with B-6 is also recommended because it raises serotonin levels.  The benefits it has had for me are:

Muscles no longer hurt
Happier
Amphetamine tolerance way up

this also might be due to the other supplements I am taking, which are many, but Mag Taurate is by far the best as far as amphetamine tolerance goes (for me).

I am really really interested in this L-theanine.  I will be buying it and supplementing it in the morning, will post results soon.


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## RosieQ

this is too much for me to work through.  could someone dumb it down for me?


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## yaesutom

Wow.  Well i have a bunch of amantadine around maybe i'll give that a try.  I''d love to find a way to stop amph. tolerance or even reduce it.  I'll be getting some dxm powder soon, which well it was cheap, not that i like to trip off it, got it cause it was cheap.  I could make up capsules of doses of it, starting low maybe just so any effects i'd notice would go away, and try taking it every day and use dexedrine as i usually do and see if i notice a difference after a while.

If that doesn't work good i'll give the amantadine a shot since i have a shitload laying around, i think they are 100mg each.

Amphetamine tolerance sucks..


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## copasetik

This thread = gold.


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## bouncer

Psychopharmacology (Berl). 2002 Dec;164(4):376-84. Epub 2002 Oct 05. Related Articles, Links 


Effects of the NMDA antagonist memantine on human methamphetamine discrimination.


Hart CL, Haney M, Foltin RW, Fischman MW.

New York State Psychiatric Institute, Department of Psychiatry, College of Physicians and Surgeons of Columbia University, New York, NY 10032, USA. clh42@columbia.edu


RATIONALE: The discriminative stimulus effects of N-methyl- D-aspartate (NMDA) antagonists have been assessed in laboratory animals. To date, no published study has assessed their ability to alter methamphetamine-related discriminative stimulus effects in humans. OBJECTIVE: This study investigated the discriminative stimulus, subjective (e.g. "Good Drug Effect"), psychomotor performance, and cardiovascular effects (e.g. blood pressure) of oral methamphetamine following acute oral memantine (a non-competitive NMDA antagonist) in humans. 

METHODS: Initially, participants were trained to discriminate 10 mg methamphetamine from placebo using a standard two-response procedure (drug versus placebo). Then, the effects of memantine (0, 40 mg) on methamphetamine discrimination were examined across several methamphetamine doses (0, 5, 10, 20 mg) using a novel-response procedure (drug versus placebo versus novel). 

RESULTS: Following placebo pretreatment, 10 mg methamphetamine produced 99% methamphetamine-appropriate responding and placebo produced 75% placebo-appropriate responding. Following memantine pretreatment, participants responded as if they had been given a novel compound, although memantine did not significantly alter most subjective-effects ratings following methamphetamine. Memantine alone produced "positive" subjective effects and novel drug-appropriate responding. 

CONCLUSION: These data indicate that the memantine-methamphetamine combination produced novel discriminative stimulus effects and that memantine produced some stimulant-like subjective effects.


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## Synapse999

*Re: Magnesium Taurate*



			
				DoctorDoctor said:
			
		

> *The best and only stop on the internet for any information you will ever  need on magnesium is : http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#kefir
> 
> The best form of magnesium if Magnesium Taurate, it is SO important to supplement with Mag Taurate whether or not you use amphetamines. *




I don't know about all that.
Taurate doesn't really seem like something everyone should be needing to take in any doses.

Generally calcium/magnesium are bound together, becaues 50% of magnesium or so that you absorb, is absorbed with calcium.




From research, and my experience trying the supplements.

Magnesium/calcium Citrate "Capsules" 125MG mag in them.  Will absorb about the same amount amount in to your body, as most of those "500mg" "1000mg" magnesium supplement gimmicks.


But most important seems to be the fact its a capsule, and a citrate combined with calcium supposingly. I never took the combo with calcium until recently.
But before that, it was simply Magnesium Citrate Capsules - Which i still prefer as #1 choice, being only one element i'm taking at a time.


Easy to find at any store, Absorbs well. no side effects, stoped many side effects of tweaking... to a nice balance.. and without any marketing ploys in it...over exaggerating on some additive they discovered worked well heh.



-That is an extrememly good source, or at least intresting to read by the way doctordoctor. Thanks. 


It words alot of different facts, differntly to better understand for most.
"one such drug is the amphetamine dextroamphetamine which has the unique property of elevating magnesium in serum and significantly reducing the calcium to magnesium ratio"


Basically, this is reason i had started on the cal/mag combo already. I take large amounts of dextroamphetamine daily.


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## masaz

Thanks, that's been pretty useful. My tolerance to speed's been building up for awhile, though mainly my fault due to the parties I've been to.
It would be very interesting to find out if tolerance could be reduced, rather than just prevented, cos I've been wanting to feel a repeat of my first few experiences with 'phet, as they were brilliant. 
I wouldn't say I've got a high tolerance to the stuff, but whereas it only used to take me a very small line to be absolutely buzzing, now it'll take quite a few. 
Quite annoying and bloody expensive too, so yeah...


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## bouncer

bouncer said:
			
		

> *
> ~Dextromethorphan Potentiates the Antinociceptive Effects of Morphine and the delta-Opioid Agonist SNC80 in Squirrel Monkeys
> 
> http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/300/2/435
> 
> ~MorphiDex (MS : DM) Double-Blind, Multiple-Dose Studies in Chronic Pain Patients
> 
> http://opioids.com/morphidex/ *




---> *...but in theory they could also block opiate tolerance* 


I don't know if anyone noticed but NDMA antagonists (at least DXM from the info above) can also "fool around" with opiate tolerance. Meaning reduce it or prevent. I wish someone being into opiates, would give a shot at 60mg DXM + his/her opiate/opioid of choice (Vicodin/Oxy/H/...) and see what kind of results would get. It would be *VERY* interesting..


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## bouncer

More about Magnesium (from another forum)

Magnesium
--------------

Dextroamphetamine can increase blood levels of magnesium, which causes significant lowering of the calcium to magnesium ratio in the blood. The change in this ratio may in part explain the effectiveness of stimulants like dextroamphetamine in hyperactive boys.

1 Another magnesium-amphetamine interaction involves supplements of magnesium hydroxide, which are known to cause retention of amphetamines in the body.

2 This could theoretically result in increased blood levels of these drugs. Finally, animal studies have suggested that magnesium supplements can increase learning and enhance the behavioral response to stimulants.

3 For these reasons, the use of magnesium along with amphetamines may enhance the effectiveness of these drugs in the treatment of ADD, but controlled studies of this possibility are needed.

References: 

1. Schmidt ME, Kruesi MJ, Elia J, et al. Effect of dextroamphetamine and methylphenidate on calcium and magnesium concentration in hyperactive boys. Psychiatry Res 1994;54:199–210.

2. Hurwitz A. Antacid therapy and drug kinetics. Clin Pharmacokinet 1977;2:269–80.

3. Reviewed in Schmidt ME, Kruesi MJ, Elia J, et al. Effect of dextroamphetamine and methylphenidate on calcium and magnesium concentration in hyperactive boys. Psychiatry Res 1994;54:199–210.


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## wtf31337

when should these supplements be taken? ie if someone speeded just every once in awhile, should they use DXM/Magnesium...
every day?
for a few days before/after they take *amphetamine?
at the same time they take *amphetamine ?


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## nenarOPI

I'd say no more than every day..though I dunno how good it is to multidose on mineral supplements a few times a day.


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## beautifly

oh my god....i need speed to be up to read this!  guys...y do i feel like i won't be able to quit spped cold turkey?  And most definatly my tolerance has increased..  help!! what do i do????
...start by reading all that info. can't understand all terminology...but....ive benn a speed user for almost a year. coke addict for almost 10yrs.  smoker  for too long. im doomed ah? (can u tell im canadian? ah?)  **beautifly was here **


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## yaesutom

*BUMP*!

This is a good thread..

I'm wondering how some of you have been doing with this.

I take dexedrine daily (almost daily), and although the tolerance is NOTHING near as bad as Adderall was, it still sucks.

I was trying the dextromethorphan thing, like 30mg twice a day, then i guess i got sick of putting the stuff in capsules/measuring and stopped.

But I just lately got a 'bulk' thing of l-theanine, and have been taking that at least once if not 2-3 times a day or whenever i take dex.  Also almost daily but not quite, a big magnesium/calcium pill.

Also while I was going to order l-theanine online anyway, I wanted to get some Aniracetam powder, because I do like the effect piracetam is doing (seems to potentiate amphetamines, aniracetam too).  Also while "there" i grabbed some l-carnitine which i've been taking "just for the fuck of it, its good for me so why not" along with sometimes if i feel like capping up a capsule of Alpha Lipoic Acid.

Now, I am not sure if its the combination of things lately, but.. anyway, I started taking amisulpride (about 50mg/day) a couple weeks or so ago, and just the last few days been taking the mao-a inhibitor moclobemide (actually was used to potentiate a mushroom trip, and experiment with other tryptamines, but just ended up taking 150mg or so a day, maybe sometimes 2 tabs/300mg).  I've noticed my sleep has improved, usually its real hard for me to fall asleep, and then, real hard to wake up (dex!).  Lately I haven't needed much dexedrine compared to before, if any really "needed" at all, but i'll just go on but notice i'll get tired at better times, and easily dose off.  Usually after just a few hours of sleep, or 6-7hrs, i'm good, and I wake right up without the need to pop a dex.   Usually, once i do fall asleep, i can sleep for SO long, and its hard to wake up.. not lately.

Also I wanted to know if there is a certain amount of l-theanine that is "good" for this? If it helps prevent tolerance, after you take some how long does this effect last? I've just been putting a sorta random amount in a capsule, anywhere from 100-300mg when i take it, less if i take it more than once a day (less meaning around 100mg), usually a bit while before i take any dexedrine (if any at all, i just take it anyway).  

I know the amisulpride is probably giving me some 'energy' and motivation, and that may be the main reason, might be finally really 'kicking in' who knows.  Also I do know that after taking piracetam for a while (I already had an old big bulk amount of that, which i thought was useless until i kept taking it daily) i've noticed what thats doing up there in the ol' head, and I like aniracetam too, and know that probably has something to do with the extra energy.  I notice the dexedrine lasts longer and dont really notice it 'come down' suddenly like before, just kinda slowly lingers/wears off i guess.

Anyway I highly recommend the 'racetams! I thought they were useless til lately.  Even such things as, my eyes focusing on an object from near to far is like twice as fast.  My memory and coming up with what to say, its like snap, faster than I can get it out.  My internal mental image/"movie" of a memory is nice and vivid and clear, all senses vision/hearing/the wind blowing/how i felt is all nice and clear.  Without dexedrine I have much better focus than normal, "faster mind" and "easier access" to ..more areas of the brain.  Easier "access" to the right side where i can bring out more creativity when needed.  Wierd shit, i like it hehe.

Anyway this is a good thread, noticed nothing has been posted in it in a while, and its probably just floating along down not being seen anymore..


----------



## toolazy2think

for us recreational speed users, would I want to just take some DXM or such medicines just before any uses, or is it something that I would have to maintain constantly?


----------



## Synapse999

toolazy2think said:
			
		

> *for us recreational speed users, would I want to just take some DXM or such medicines just before any uses, or is it something that I would have to maintain constantly? *




You don't want to take any DXM with speed.

Only thing worth considering to take with speed is maybe magnesium citrate/capsules.
to reduce some of the neurotoxic effects, slow tolerance kinda.


Other then that.....some people are just mixing way to many medications lately at once. They can/do conflict with eachother regardless of what there labeled "purpose" is.


----------



## Riemann Zeta

I also enjoy amphetamines, but worry about neurotoxicity.  Hence, I take methylphenidate for ADD, instead of Adderall.  I have read about (from many of the articles cited in this thread) the tolerance-preventing effects of NMDA receptor antagonists.  The issue of NMDA receptor antagonism preventing amphetamine-mediated dopaminergic neurotoxicity, however, has not really been addressed.  Since the putative pathway for DA neurotoxicity is increased intracellular oxidation of DA to quinone species (which might interfere with the cellular cytochrome c oxidative phosphorylation chain), I don't seem how an NMDA receptor antagonist would help in this situation.  That is, if the cellular damage is not Ca++ dependent and is ameliorated by DA reuptake transporter blockers.  

However, if I could have my cake and eat it too: take (d)-amphetamine and prevent neurotoxicity, I would be very happy.  (D)-amphetamine lasts much longer than methylphenidate for ADD.  I already have to take 3 of the bloody little Ritalin pills per day.  (D)-amphetamine is also more fun recreationally.

PS: What is the PCP2 receptor?  I have heard this mentioned in papers and always thought that it was bullshit.  PCP has significant affinity for the NMDA pore (the PCP1 receptor of old) and the dopamine reuptake transporter (the PCP2 receptor?), which dextromethorphan (but not dextrorphan) also binds to at high enough concentrations.


----------



## Synapse999

Riemann Zeta said:
			
		

> *I also enjoy amphetamines, but worry about neurotoxicity.  Hence, I take methylphenidate for ADD, instead of Adderall.  I have read about (from many of the articles cited in this thread) the tolerance-preventing effects of NMDA receptor antagonists.  The issue of NMDA receptor antagonism preventing amphetamine-mediated dopaminergic neurotoxicity, however, has not really been addressed.  Since the putative pathway for DA neurotoxicity is increased intracellular oxidation of DA to quinone species (which might interfere with the cellular cytochrome c oxidative phosphorylation chain), I don't seem how an NMDA receptor antagonist would help in this situation.  That is, if the cellular damage is not Ca++ dependent and is ameliorated by DA reuptake transporter blockers.
> 
> However, if I could have my cake and eat it too: take (d)-amphetamine and prevent neurotoxicity, I would be very happy.  (D)-amphetamine lasts much longer than methylphenidate for ADD.  I already have to take 3 of the bloody little Ritalin pills per day.  (D)-amphetamine is also more fun recreationally.
> 
> PS: What is the PCP2 receptor?  I have heard this mentioned in papers and always thought that it was bullshit.  PCP has significant affinity for the NMDA pore (the PCP1 receptor of old) and the dopamine reuptake transporter (the PCP2 receptor?), which dextromethorphan (but not dextrorphan) also binds to at high enough concentrations. *




isnt the entire structure, and how it works different with ritalin - compared to the amphetamines.
and also, in the same effect is potentialy more toxic? (or am i getting confused due to the fact there is a billion anti-ritalin sites, and really none for d-amphetamine heh-


----------



## Riemann Zeta

Ritalin is a bulky N-substituted phenethylamine, meaning its large size does not allow it to act as a substrate for the monoamine transporters (and thus it cannot enter the neuron).  Basically, this means that ritalin blocks the reuptake of neuronal dopamine without inducing release via 'reverse transport' through the dopamine transporter.  Without supraphysiological concentrations of dopamine released and subsequently taken back up, there is less oxidative stress on the cell (fewer reactive oxygen species, like quinones, are formed).  Several articles have been published concerning the neurotoxic potential of ritalin, however, none have found any toxic effects.  In fact, reuptake blockers like ritalin and bupropion block the neurotoxic effects of (d)-amphetamine and meth. For your reading pleasure:

Sandoval, et al (2003). J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 304(3): 1181-7.

Kim, et al (2000). J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 293(2): 625-33.

Yuan, et al (1997). Brain Res. 767(1): 172-5.

Zaczek, et al (1989). Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 100(2): 227-33.

From the Yuan, et al (1997) article:

To further evaluate the dopamine (DA) neurotoxic potential of the widely prescribed psychostimulant, methylphenidate, mice were treated with various doses (range: 10-120 mg/kg) and treatment schedules of methylphenidate (every 2 h x 4 or twice daily x 4). Higher doses of methylphenidate produced intense stereotypy, as well as short- (5-day), but not long- (2-week), term depletions of striatal DA axonal markers. By contrast, amphetamine caused not only intense stereotypy, but also profound, long-lasting, dose-related DA deficits. These findings indicate that results of studies of amphetamine neurotoxicity using short (5-day) post-drug survival periods are potentially misleading. Further, the present findings confirm and extend previous results indicating that methylphenidate, unlike amphetamine, lacks DA neurotoxic potential, and strongly suggest that DA efflux, although perhaps necessary, is not sufficient for the expression of amphetamine-induced DA neurotoxicity.


----------



## Laquatus0

qyestion: so can i take 100mg DXM and expect no tolerance to meth the next day? Or do I have to set out some DXM dosing schedual?

My tolerance is making it expensive from a recreational standpoint.


----------



## nopain

My question after all this is- does it matter when or what order you take these tolerance preventing supplements?  Would you take them before, after, or just split up during the day as if you weren't taking any amphetamine product?  I ask this because I am thinking about supplementing my Adderall use with Magnesium and l-theanine and was wondering how to integrate them into my Adderall dosing schedule.  PS.  I am also speaking with my doc about changing to dexedrine instead of Adderall as well.


----------



## Cloud Hidden

This is information all seems really good but I can't comprehend it can someone break it down for me?  Also I take and SSRI so I guess I can't take DXM.  Will taking that  other stuff instead work, or is the amount of DXM needed small enough that I can still take it with my SSRI?  And then I should pick one of those other things like magnesium etc.? Somebody please help me I am very confused but I think I need to know this information. Thank you!!


----------



## Cloud Hidden

*Ohyeah*

I also have one more question do you take this stuff on a regular basis like once every morning or whenever you are using?


----------



## bouncer

*Re: Ohyeah*



			
				Cloud Hidden said:
			
		

> *I also have one more question do you take this stuff on a regular basis like once every morning or whenever you are using? *



Only when you are using amphetamine.


----------



## bouncer

As far as smart drugs and amphetamine tolerance:

Vinpocetine (while not a direct NMDA antagonist) could also prevent amphetamine tolerance, as it has been shown to decrease pathologically high levels of Ca in neurons (Neurochem Res 2001 Sep;26(8-9):1095-100), thus preventing excess Ca flow to NMDA receptors. 

Another interesting possibility is Huperzine A, which while increasing levels of dopamine and norepinephrine (J Neurosci Res. 1995 Aug 15;41(6):828-35) also acts as a NMDA receptor antagonist (Neuroscience. 2001;105(3):663-9).

Also there are anectodes that zinc and vit.b6 help with tolerance too. But I haven't read any studies proving that, only people's opinions.


----------



## tiger-bunny

Riemann Zeta said:
			
		

> *
> 
> PS: What is the PCP2 receptor?  I have heard this mentioned in papers and always thought that it was bullshit.  PCP has significant affinity for the NMDA pore (the PCP1 receptor of old) and the dopamine reuptake transporter (the PCP2 receptor?), which dextromethorphan (but not dextrorphan) also binds to at high enough concentrations. *



just to answer your question, i believe the pcp receptors = dopamine receptors and really have nothing to do with the drug PCP


----------



## bacon convoy

i just wanted to follow up on the subject of DXM and amphetamines.  it's been my XP that a recommended dose of cough syrup, the only active ingredient being DXM, taken with 90mg XR adderall are as follows:

-much smoother onset, more of a ramp than a rocket

-more mentally stimulating and less physically stimulating

-greatly reduced negative side effects(rapid pulse, rebound effect after dosage wears off) and condition of user less obvious to the outside world

-x-ray vision

i wish.  

anyway, overall i am very pleased with the results of the combination.  i plan on adding calcium and magnesium to my regimine as well.


----------



## DexterMeth

I find it best to just stay away from speed.  But people are going to do it no matter what.  Hence the point of this website and this VERY INFORMATIVE thread.  Thank you for the post.


----------



## Riemann Zeta

I hate to drudge up an old thread, but I recently switched from methylphenidate 10 mg TID for ADD to enantiopure (_d_)-amphetamine 30 mg Spansule (R) qAM and would like to keep discussing the latest research surrounding amphetamine neurotoxicity, as it is quite a concern of mine.  I also take vinpocetine 5-10 mg qD and piracetam 1600 mg qD, as well as a broad-spectrum multivitamin.  As for other pharms, I take venlaxfaxine (Effexor XR) 150 mg qD and bupropion (Wellbutrin) 450 mg qD.  I am have read research that DA reuptake inhibitors like bupropion can prevent amphetamine neurotoxicity, but _a priori_, one would think a DA reuptake inhibitor would also reduce the effect of the amphetamine, right?


----------



## Catface

*Bump!*

Bump...I'd like to know if anyone has anything new to add to this thread...What about other nootropics, etc? Does anyone have any experience with combining amphetamines with something else and finding a good interaction? Any studies pertaining to this topic would also be interesting...thanks


----------



## Synapse999

Long amphetamine discussion. I forgot about until recently.. and started to edit it. adding useful links.
Links to very extensive studies, and great information from advanced knowledge and experiences.
Amphetamine Tolerance/prevention/effects etc. - Links to studies 

The best one i have read was the link on 
Neuropsychopharmacology, Chronic Amphetamine Use and Abuse article.
ill add it in a few when i get back.  its on the above post.. i think thats the name.


----------



## Motox786

So if i were taking bupropion along with my adderall i wouldn't have to worry about tolerance or does bupropion just protect against neurotoxicity? Because i have a whole bottle of Wellbutrin that i never used because my doctor thought it would help for my ADHD, but i knew it wouldn't do jack shit, so i just got a new doctor and now i am on Adderall... 
So if that Wellbutrin would be useful in preventing tolerance and/or neurotoxicity, that would be awesome because I will probly just throw it away otherwise.


----------



## uacvax

so taking dxm with amphetamines reduces tolerance and toxicity while taking dxm with mdma increases toxicity?


----------



## jl6er

Im sure somone here can give me some insight....

I was wondering about Wellbutrin's effects along with taking Adderall....
because in my situation, I am perscribed both.  I take (only) 150mg of Wellbutrin everyday, and 20mg of Adderall maybe 2 days a week...this is because I developed tolerance so quickly. 

Heres my question though....Because Wellbutrin and Adderall both work on  norpinephrine and dopamine, and have similar effects, does taking Wellbutrin make tolerance WORSE in the long run for Adderall?  (Basically, Im asking does it make the effects of Adderall 'alone' dimish greater?)


----------



## NbWY1

I think in theory Welbutrin alone would decrease tolerance to Adderall. Though taken together and with a steady state of the drug (Wellbutrin), I'd have to say the increase in your body's noradrenaline would likely bind with a higher affinity, or even push out the Adderall somehow. 

But even this is dose dependant, as large dose of Strattera taken abruptly can sky rocket your tweak, where as (from my personal experience) a steady state level of Strattera will greatly deaden the experience.

According to:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2005.03598.x

And based on my personal experiences/feelings, Strattera, (a NARI) is certainly lowering my tolerance to amphetamines; albeit not very fast.


----------



## tiger-bunny

^^^
wellbutrin definatly increases tolerance to other dopaminergic drugs.

if tolerance is really down regulation of receptor sites and down regulation occurs because of excess dopamine, then why would you think that a drug that increases dopamine like wellbutrin would lower tolerance?

read the thread pls


----------



## jl6er

tiger-bunny said:
			
		

> ^^^
> wellbutrin definatly increases tolerance to other dopaminergic drugs.
> 
> if tolerance is really down regulation of receptor sites and down regulation occurs because of excess dopamine, then why would you think that a drug that increases dopamine like wellbutrin would lower tolerance?
> 
> read the thread pls




Yea, because Im prescribed 20mg Adderall which I take maybe 3 times a week.  And Wellbutrin XL 150mg.  I take that every other day that Im not the Adderall.  

Ever since my doctor added Wellbutrin, Ive noticed that Adderall doesnt work as effectively when I do take it.  Even though I dont take both the same day.  I guess its because Wellbutrin is still technically in my system a day or two later...

Do you u agree/see what Im saying, Tiger-Bunny?


----------



## jl6er

However, its also worth noting that Wellbutrin is strictly a Dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.  It does not have any releasing component to it - - as Adderall/amphetamines do....
Wellbutrin only prevents the reuptake.


----------



## tiger-bunny

ya i see what your saying, the whole thing is that by increasing the ammount of dopamine at the receptor sites, either by releasing it or by blocking reuptake, you will cause down regulation of the dopamine receptors. it occurs over time, so it makes sense that your adderal would become less effective more quickly since your doctor added wellbutrin.  the more often the dopamine levels are raised, the faster tolerance will build.


----------



## tiger-bunny

down regulation does not occur because of the mechanism that meth or any other amphetamine uses, it occurs because there is excess dopamine at the receptor sites, it really dosnt matter how the dopamine gets there.


----------



## NbWY1

I can't really comment on Dopamine receptor down-regulation from amphetamine use, which is why I retracted my post. Seems though you read it and responded in the few minutes it took me to delete it.

Though because amphetamines don't really bind to Dopamine receptors, the tolerance to amphetamines is likely more related to Adrenergic receptor density.

So, I see your point, and it seems quite valid in terms of Dopamine receptor density. But I wonder how much that really matters in the grand scheme of Adrenal down-regulation. Seeing as, there is some evidence that claims excess noradrenaline from NET inhibition up-regulates Adrenergic receptors.



			
				tiger-bunny said:
			
		

> ^^^
> wellbutrin definatly increases tolerance to other dopaminergic drugs.
> 
> if tolerance is really down regulation of receptor sites and down regulation occurs because of excess dopamine, then why would you think that a drug that increases dopamine like wellbutrin would lower tolerance?
> 
> read the thread pls



But yeah, seriously, maybe because it has the ability to up-regulate adrenal receptors?


----------



## tiger-bunny

to be honest, i know little about tolerance when it comes to adrenaline.
i would be suprised to find out that something could cause upregulation without reducing the ammount of adrenaline though, as that would be quite counter intuitive to my understanding of how and why down regulation occurs.


----------



## jawglasswell

ok, so does any of this really work? haha, i read it all and it's so much to take in. any suggested combo of otc products? thanks.


----------



## AlexxRed

*Is this pharmacology of this questionable?*

It seems that this thread has generated some interest and discussion on other sites.  Of particular interest was the following post:



> This is the first that I have heard that NMDA receptors play any rols in amphetamine's pharmacology. If I remember correctly, amphetamine doesn't even work via ion-channels, but through a protein-kinase enzyme that phosphorylates an intracellular portion of the dopamine transport protein, inducing reverse uptake.
> 
> Now, I suppose that the author may be referring to the action that dopamine has on the postsynaptic neuron, but blocking the NMDA receptor is not going to fix that, because this would reduce activity in that neuron, which is the opposite of what you're trying to do by using amphetamines.
> 
> Also, I do not know if magnesium is an NMDA antagonist in high doses, but NMDA antagonists produce some very noticeable effects...NMDA antagonism is responsible for the effects of the dissociative anaesthetics: ketamine, PCP, and dextromethorphan. Dissociative anaesthesia is a fairly intense form of hallucination in which the subject feels as though his mind has been dissociated from his body, similar to an out of body experience.
> 
> One interesting side-note, though, is that NMDA antagonists appear to help with Alzheimer's disease, although I'm not sure how. They are sometimes prescribed along with cholinesterase inhibitors (which slow the breakdown of acetylcholine, a chemical involved in memory) to slow the progression of the disease.



From: http://www.addforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9575.html

Any comments about what this author is suggesting regarding NMDA receptors not playing any role in amphetamine pharmacology - and that using an NMDA antagonist would in fact reduce activity in the neuron?  

Forgive my very basic understanding at this stage but is it because the suggested methods in this thread are appropriate *partial* NMDA antagonists, rather than full NMDA antagonists?

Cheers

Alex


----------



## eu4ia

the magnesium i just got came from my local GNC store.
its 250mg complex form. its magnesium as magnesium oxide and magnesium 
gluconate. other ingredients is cellulose,titanium dioxide,vegetable acetoglycerides.

will this work fine? i cant seems to find magnesium glycinate and carbonate


----------



## AlexxRed

eu4ia said:
			
		

> will this work fine? i cant seems to find magnesium glycinate and carbonate



Pretty sure magnesium glycinate is the same as chelated magnesium.


----------



## DexterMeth

DaG said:
			
		

> ...And sorry for the length of the post - but I just wanted to write down everything I researched during last few days (I skipped PubMed abstracts).
> Take care.



Sorry for the length of the post, you just wanted to write down everything you researched the last few days? Don't you mean to say, "And sorry for the length of the post - but i just wanted to type until I crashed and died of exhaustion from all the ampthetamines that I'm currently twacked the fuck out my of skull in that "ampheta-goodness"..." ?   88)   %) :D    ....    LOL..(if you get what I mean with the specific ordering of the faces, along with the grin ABOUT the series of faces i wrote there...it's a "mysterious encrpyted messages"! heh, joking.  It's an illustration of each stage of the meth high.  I forgot the regular smilie face though  . Oh and i forgot the mad/raged one too  . I should just stop there ,because if I keep it up, I'll have to write about typing about each of the faces that you can put up. 

Anyways, THANK YOU for the very in depth, thorough, organized, and informative post.  This is without a doubt one of "those posts" to KEEP on this site (up on the sticky-posts or something) for the whole lifespan of this site.  And to think I actually thought I was helping myself/"protecting my bones", when I would take calcium suppliment vitamins when i was a tweaker back in the day.  God i feel so fucking stupid.  Well more like "jesus christ I'm so glad and lucky that I wasn't on meth (daily) any longer then that HORRIBLE "run" of 14 months on that *SHIT* 
   I'm also glad you put that little bit about taking magnesium..aside from even using amphetamines. I don't use that crap anymore. I've been non-completely-fucking-delirious, aka sober, for about 5 years! _But_ I have "dabbled" with it..just a handful of times during these last 5 years.  That's like once a year.  And each time I did it (I'm nowadays completely fucking finished even thinking about that bullshit...well aside from the occasional thought about how terrible and destructive it is)....<Mind you I've generally been talking from a point of view to if the user in question was a TWEAKER aka "a daily user"(more like a "every hour"...or even more, depending on method of ingestion.)..And yeah my own personal biased against the drug is all over the place in this post (duh)...but that doesn't make anything necesarily untrue, (once again) IMO.  Oh, and I'm also talking about the negetive effects, usage, etc, from a very "broad"/"general" point of view.  
     What do I personally think then? I think it's actually "completely safe"(as safe as safe can be), in my book. BUT on when you _know your source_ and use it responsibly and in moderation.  You know, just a fun day/night(/the next day since you didn't sleep  ...kiiding, it's best if you actually get sleep every single time..otherwise you run more of a risk of becomming addicted and being dubbed a tweaker rat fink fuck...a little sniveling weasle....a snake in the grass....strait up psychotic/fucking insaine.  Moderation is of course ALWAYS the key; with every drug.  But especially ones that are so extremely addictive as meth/ampthetamines/stimulants are...being on my "top 3" list of "overall worst drugs for you to do", meth/ampthetamines are tied in 2nd place with crack...."oddly" enough with Datura(and OTC drugs of the like...or any deleriant) at the top #1 spot.  There's a difference between tripping and being in a state a pure delerium...where you don't even know if you are tripping, even though your dead grandmother is crawling up your leg, she looks 100% real, and you can feel her crawling up you, you can smell her...it's all "real"...people have reported (like a group of people that all took datura together...and more then just one group of people have "done this") passing around an imaginary joint and getting high off it..accept in reality there was no joint or anything even in their hands in the first place....or if there was/happens to be anything in one's hands, it would be more along the lines of "dude when I woke up the next day and the _trip_ was over, I was in the bathroom and noticed that the bar of soap in teh shower had a big bite mark taken out of it." (>>>>>sober trip sitter: "That's because you thought the soap was a block of cheddar cheese..and you actually thought you were tasting and seeing/smelling cheese." _In my language/way of speaking/thinking, REAL tripping is when you take any psychedelic...deleriants, albiet technically yes they may be psychedelic (the effects), it just does not belong in family by any means....fuck that shit..but again this is all my opinion.  Don't be fooled though..i know what i'm talking about here.  If you wanna go huff a can of gas or something, be my guest, but don't type into your steven hawkings'-llike computer (when you are practically a vegtable), that you weren't warned.   _ 
         Anyways I'm going to wrap this post up here now...I've spent like over 30minutes typing it out....probably even longer then that...and I don't even use meth! Oh, AND I'm really stoned! Ha. I just can't get enough fo myself at times.  I'm going to shut the fuck up now. lol.  As long as this post helps at least even just one single random non-member of BL that was just browsing this site once because they accidently stumbled upon it when searching for something about meth, somehow found this post, read it, and it helped them out (however the hell) in a positive way...then I'm satisfied.   
Peace out
-DM
*EDIT* - there's nothing really wrong imo (safety wise and in general) with using quality meth/amps/stims in moderation (accurately dosing each time as well) as a tool.  You know like if you have an essay you have to write up that is due the next day in the morning, so you pull an "all-nighter" by doing just the right amount of meth(stim), and not getting TOO much of the euphoric effects or getting too "speedy", so that you could actually concentrate...Another situational example is if one simple liked to use it in moderation, for fun, every now and then.  And of course it also depends on route of administration...but (for the trazillionth time) this is all my own personal opinion.  While we're on the personal opinion boat, I'd like to again mention how shitty meth is, and that it is literally like a poison. Except you feel good the whole time you're dying....lol, right..l.like you  could ever feel good the whole time you used meth/amp.  Even the most hardcore users that shoot up multiple times daily eventually end up in rehab because even then end up hating it and thinking, in their case being (in a way) forced to hate it and think it sucks...afterall, humans generally are more into things that please them vs. things that drive them insaine, hurt them physically, emotionally, financially, socially, ........god and that's if you don't end up dying from the shit and/or the lifestyle that inevitably ends up commingly along with it.  
         Jesus christ that was just supposed to be a short like edit message.  Oh yeah, I forgot, I took a single serving packing of caffine pillls this morning to help me study since i couldnt sleep after i woke up at around 4 in the morning anyways...and if there is a person who really doesnt "tolerate"/like/put up with caffiene and it's shitty side effects, that person would be me.  However drinking the occasional cup of tea is much different, nice and smooth because of the other alkaloids in the tea...plus i get tea with specifically low levels of NATURAL caffiene. I have to smoke my brains out with pot to override any side effects from these caffiene pills and feel more relaxed...luckily i also got a script for ativan.  
OK, FINALLY...."Peace man"(or you can all go f#ck yourselvs)  jk...bluelighters unite! Oh yeah when you go and buy lighters at the store, ALWAYS make sure to get a blue one in support of being a bluelighter...every 80cents go to the starving children...the other 20 percent of each dollar goes to our christian organization..i mean, we gotta pay for these commercials, the employees (even though they are supposed to be "rightious"aka christian VOLENTTEERS ..in the name of jesus of course), along with getting filthy rich off a stunt like this.  Anything to make a buck you know?  Religions weren't just made for spiritual salvation.  Didn't you know that? Idiot.


----------



## uacvax

damn dude use some indentations and stuff


----------



## DexterMeth

^you could always NOT read it if NOT using the tab key bothers you that much.  idiot.


----------



## uacvax

it doesn't bother me, it makes it hard to read, which I actually wanted to do. indentations are there because the average human mind has a short attention span, and without blank spaces in between the words, nobody would be able to read hundreds of word after word without respite. 

chill out man i wasn't criticizing you, could you _please_ indent your shit next time?


----------



## Ham-milton

DexterMeth said:
			
		

> ^you could always NOT read it if NOT using the tab key bothers you that much.  idiot.



How about a little civility?  The point of posting a thread is for other people to read it.  "Don't read it if you don't like it" isn't some great catch-all for defending poorly written or formatted posts.

There's no reason to be a dick- it wasn't as if he was rude about it.


----------



## MattPsy

Common (or not, as the case may be) sense sez: In order for posts to a community to be useful in a contributory sense, they must be easily accessible and interpretible. Wall 'o' text syndrome is counterproductive toward this cause ;p !


----------



## f13nd

whats a brand name or type of magnesium supplement i could go purchase from my local drugstore. only magnesium supps at my house are laxatives


----------



## MattPsy

They all act as laxatives, afaik.
Just use an amount that doesn't cause that effect. The laxative effect is through a osmotic mechanism (it attracts water into the intestine, which increases motillity). The muscle-relaxant effects of Mg are active at much lower doses.


----------



## Adrenochrome

I've noticed no tolerance to dexamph, possibly even a sensitivity


----------



## Crankinit

So if someone wanted to use a combination of DXM/Magnesium in an attempt to prevent tolerance buildup, should these substances be consumed daily even when not using meth, or only before/during/after the high? Common sense says the latter, but I'm not sure.

Also would any of the chemicals discussed in this thread potentially interact with MDMA, either by slowing down tolerance buildup or otherwise being beneficial?

And on that note, would the doses of DXM suggested be high enough to create a risk when combined with MDMA? I know the two substances shouldn't be mixed, as a rule, but I'm not sure on the specifics.





			
				DexterMeth said:
			
		

> Sorry for the length of the post, you just wanted to write down everything you researched the last few days? Don't you mean to say, "And sorry for the length of the post - but i just wanted to type until I crashed and died of exhaustion from all the ampthetamines that I'm currently twacked the fuck out my of skull in that "ampheta-goodness"..." ?   88)   %) :D    ....    LOL..(if you get what I mean with the specific ordering of the faces, along with the grin ABOUT the series of faces i wrote there...it's a "mysterious encrpyted messages"! heh, joking.  It's an illustration of each stage of the meth high.  I forgot the regular smilie face though  . Oh and i forgot the mad/raged one too  . I should just stop there ,because if I keep it up, I'll have to write about typing about each of the faces that you can put up.
> 
> Anyways, THANK YOU for the very in depth, thorough, organized, and informative post.  This is without a doubt one of "those posts" to KEEP on this site (up on the sticky-posts or something) for the whole lifespan of this site.  And to think I actually thought I was helping myself/"protecting my bones", when I would take calcium suppliment vitamins when i was a tweaker back in the day.  God i feel so fucking stupid.  Well more like "jesus christ I'm so glad and lucky that I wasn't on meth (daily) any longer then that HORRIBLE "run" of 14 months on that *SHIT*
> I'm also glad you put that little bit about taking magnesium..aside from even using amphetamines. I don't use that crap anymore. I've been non-completely-fucking-delirious, aka sober, for about 5 years! _But_ I have "dabbled" with it..just a handful of times during these last 5 years.  That's like once a year.  And each time I did it (I'm nowadays completely fucking finished even thinking about that bullshit...well aside from the occasional thought about how terrible and destructive it is)....<Mind you I've generally been talking from a point of view to if the user in question was a TWEAKER aka "a daily user"(more like a "every hour"...or even more, depending on method of ingestion.)..And yeah my own personal biased against the drug is all over the place in this post (duh)...but that doesn't make anything necesarily untrue, (once again) IMO.  Oh, and I'm also talking about the negetive effects, usage, etc, from a very "broad"/"general" point of view.
> What do I personally think then? I think it's actually "completely safe"(as safe as safe can be), in my book. BUT on when you _know your source_ and use it responsibly and in moderation.  You know, just a fun day/night(/the next day since you didn't sleep  ...kiiding, it's best if you actually get sleep every single time..otherwise you run more of a risk of becomming addicted and being dubbed a tweaker rat fink fuck...a little sniveling weasle....a snake in the grass....strait up psychotic/fucking insaine.  Moderation is of course ALWAYS the key; with every drug.  But especially ones that are so extremely addictive as meth/ampthetamines/stimulants are...being on my "top 3" list of "overall worst drugs for you to do", meth/ampthetamines are tied in 2nd place with crack...."oddly" enough with Datura(and OTC drugs of the like...or any deleriant) at the top #1 spot.  There's a difference between tripping and being in a state a pure delerium...where you don't even know if you are tripping, even though your dead grandmother is crawling up your leg, she looks 100% real, and you can feel her crawling up you, you can smell her...it's all "real"...people have reported (like a group of people that all took datura together...and more then just one group of people have "done this") passing around an imaginary joint and getting high off it..accept in reality there was no joint or anything even in their hands in the first place....or if there was/happens to be anything in one's hands, it would be more along the lines of "dude when I woke up the next day and the _trip_ was over, I was in the bathroom and noticed that the bar of soap in teh shower had a big bite mark taken out of it." (>>>>>sober trip sitter: "That's because you thought the soap was a block of cheddar cheese..and you actually thought you were tasting and seeing/smelling cheese." _In my language/way of speaking/thinking, REAL tripping is when you take any psychedelic...deleriants, albiet technically yes they may be psychedelic (the effects), it just does not belong in family by any means....fuck that shit..but again this is all my opinion.  Don't be fooled though..i know what i'm talking about here.  If you wanna go huff a can of gas or something, be my guest, but don't type into your steven hawkings'-llike computer (when you are practically a vegtable), that you weren't warned.   _
> Anyways I'm going to wrap this post up here now...I've spent like over 30minutes typing it out....probably even longer then that...and I don't even use meth! Oh, AND I'm really stoned! Ha. I just can't get enough fo myself at times.  I'm going to shut the fuck up now. lol.  As long as this post helps at least even just one single random non-member of BL that was just browsing this site once because they accidently stumbled upon it when searching for something about meth, somehow found this post, read it, and it helped them out (however the hell) in a positive way...then I'm satisfied.
> Peace out
> -DM
> *EDIT* - there's nothing really wrong imo (safety wise and in general) with using quality meth/amps/stims in moderation (accurately dosing each time as well) as a tool.  You know like if you have an essay you have to write up that is due the next day in the morning, so you pull an "all-nighter" by doing just the right amount of meth(stim), and not getting TOO much of the euphoric effects or getting too "speedy", so that you could actually concentrate...Another situational example is if one simple liked to use it in moderation, for fun, every now and then.  And of course it also depends on route of administration...but (for the trazillionth time) this is all my own personal opinion.  While we're on the personal opinion boat, I'd like to again mention how shitty meth is, and that it is literally like a poison. Except you feel good the whole time you're dying....lol, right..l.like you  could ever feel good the whole time you used meth/amp.  Even the most hardcore users that shoot up multiple times daily eventually end up in rehab because even then end up hating it and thinking, in their case being (in a way) forced to hate it and think it sucks...afterall, humans generally are more into things that please them vs. things that drive them insaine, hurt them physically, emotionally, financially, socially, ........god and that's if you don't end up dying from the shit and/or the lifestyle that inevitably ends up commingly along with it.
> Jesus christ that was just supposed to be a short like edit message.  Oh yeah, I forgot, I took a single serving packing of caffine pillls this morning to help me study since i couldnt sleep after i woke up at around 4 in the morning anyways...and if there is a person who really doesnt "tolerate"/like/put up with caffiene and it's shitty side effects, that person would be me.  However drinking the occasional cup of tea is much different, nice and smooth because of the other alkaloids in the tea...plus i get tea with specifically low levels of NATURAL caffiene. I have to smoke my brains out with pot to override any side effects from these caffiene pills and feel more relaxed...luckily i also got a script for ativan.
> OK, FINALLY...."Peace man"(or you can all go f#ck yourselvs)  jk...bluelighters unite! Oh yeah when you go and buy lighters at the store, ALWAYS make sure to get a blue one in support of being a bluelighter...every 80cents go to the starving children...the other 20 percent of each dollar goes to our christian organization..i mean, we gotta pay for these commercials, the employees (even though they are supposed to be "rightious"aka christian VOLENTTEERS ..in the name of jesus of course), along with getting filthy rich off a stunt like this.  Anything to make a buck you know?  Religions weren't just made for spiritual salvation.  Didn't you know that? Idiot.




See, you can tell this dude likes his speed.


----------



## dehmmy

*Re: Magnesium Supplements as a 'Speed/Meth tolerance prevention/reduction'*



			
				DaG said:
			
		

> .....
> 
> 4. Magnesium (supplement)
> ......
> 
> 4) Magnesium is also an NMDA antagonist.  Most people are deficient in magnesium, and stress reduces magnesium levels. Whether or not one takes amphetamines, magnesium supplementation is very important for mood, general well-being and keeping stress levels under control.  It is also important to take magnesium in efficient form, with adequate bioavailability. The best type is magnesium glycinate (chelated) with bioavailability at around 80%. Second best is magnesium carbonate with (I don't remember exactly) bioavailability at little above 30%. Supplemented magnesium should be at 500 mg/day level. Also there is a study which shows that children who use amphetamine-type stimulants have bad magnesium/calcium balance. Calcium levels stay the same with amphetamine usage, but magnesium levels drop.



I'm not certain as to how these percentages relate to bioavailability but below is what I found:


http://dietary-supplements.info.nih.gov/factsheets/magnesium.asp

" Oral magnesium supplements combine magnesium with another substance such as a salt. Examples of magnesium supplements include magnesium oxide, magnesium sulfate, and magnesium carbonate. Elemental magnesium refers to the amount of magnesium in each compound. Figure 1 compares the amount of elemental magnesium in different types of magnesium supplements [28]. The amount of elemental magnesium in a compound and its bioavailability influence the effectiveness of the magnesium supplement. Bioavailability refers to the amount of magnesium in food, medications, and supplements that is absorbed in the intestines and ultimately available for biological activity in your cells and tissues. Enteric coating of a magnesium compound can decrease bioavailability [29]. In a study that compared four forms of magnesium preparations, results suggested lower bioavailability of magnesium oxide, with significantly higher and equal absorption and bioavailability of magnesium chloride and magnesium lactate [30]. This supports the belief that both the magnesium content of a dietary supplement and its bioavailability contribute to its ability to replete deficient levels of magnesium. "


It has a chart with 7 magnesium compounds in a bar graph with % magnesium in said supplement compounds:

60%  Magnesium oxide, MgO
45%  Magnesium carbonate, MgCO3
42%  Magnesium hydroxide, Mg(OH)2
.........and various other salts of Mg..
16%  Magnesium citrate, .....
12%  Magnesium lactate, ........
12%  Magnesium chloride, MgCl2 (anhydrous)
10%  Magnesium sulfate, MgSO4 (anhydrous)
------------

Also found reference to Trimagnesium citrate on wikipedia.org (...although I don't know if this is for human consumption):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimagnesium_citrate

Trimagnesium citrate is a salt of magnesium and citric acid. It is more highly soluble than other organic magnesium salts, with a solubility of 200 g/L (yielding 32 g/L magnesium) in water.

IUPAC name:  2-hydroxypropane-1,2,3-tricarboxylic acid; magnesium
CAS:  3344-18-1
PUBMED:  20835962
Molecular formula:  C12H10Mg3O14
------------------

Any thoughts...? Hope I cited these references properly.

dehmmy


----------



## Kolmogorov

I've looked at all the articles mentioned in this thread, or at least the abstracts, but couldn't find any reference to NMDA antagonism reducing amphetamine tolerance, even less reducing methylphenidate tolerance. Does this theory has any evidence to suport it, or a least a theoretical basis? If someone has the references, I would be glad to have them.


----------



## Daedalus705

This is an awesome write up. Taking the magnesium has made my adderall last way longer than 2-3 days it used to last.


----------



## sonnyluv

Great informative post.

I take 40 -70 mg XR Add a day, 2-3 times a week I chill in the evenings with 50-70mg of norco. In terms of decreasing adderall tolerance, I take alpha lipoic acid to acidify myself metabolically, and promote excretion. I use calcium supplementation and it also  has been incredibly helpfull in the comedown. From a cardiac standpoint, calcium decreases the action potential of  nerve firings, specifically calcium gluconate is given in cases of bradycardia primary to hyperkalemia. I took that little tid bit, applied it to my adderall burn (on the assumption that adderall drops serum K+ and puts it into the cell). Junior college level shit, I know, but it fucking works. I realize that decreasing metabolic Ph would encourage the K+ to stay in the cells, but again, I'm just happy decreasing the action potential brought on by sympathetic stimulation, namely excessive norepinephrine release which I suspect is what makes me so godamn anxious at the end of a long addy day. 
Mag may help decrease tolerance in the long run, hard to tell. I think it just makes me feel aloof- but the calcium really helps.

In terms of opiates, other than potentiation I can't find any way to slow down the tolerance I have to it. Nothing works. 

Thanks again for the post everyone, very helpfull. 

Oh, and I'll have whatever dexter meth is having, now that he's cleaned up.


----------



## theWorldWithin

sonnyluv can you elaborate on how ALA works as an acidifying agent and what the atvantage of that is? I was always under the impression that it was primarily usefull as an antioxidant (probably the best) when using amphetamines.


----------



## sonnyluv

theWorldWithin said:
			
		

> sonnyluv can you elaborate on how ALA works as an acidifying agent and what the atvantage of that is? I was always under the impression that it was primarily usefull as an antioxidant (probably the best) when using amphetamines.


Yeah, I should have been more clear. Alpha lipoic acid I use for two reasons. My theory: unlke a meth user who uses substantial amounts of the drug, I am a daily user and come 3pm, I'm ready to come down for the night. I take ALA, because, as you said it is the best antioxidant, prevent any neuron damage and hopefully replace some of what I've lost during the day. 2) It is acid. It drops Ph via my stomach thereby promoting excretion of Adderall through my kidneys. As we all know the duration an intensity of a meth high is heavily dpendant on metabloic Ph. I'm hoping that it just speeds up the comedown while replacing antioxidants to my brain. I also take tylenol to stay cool and prevent neuron damage from being overheated (I seriously get hot every day at the end of an adderall run).

One more thing, I've found that 500mg of ascorbic acid taken during mid tweak (which for me is about 4 hours after ingestion) really helps the comedown, I feel  somehow cleaner.

These are just my crak pot theories, they seem to work for but are obviously by no means law


----------



## theWorldWithin

Thanks for the info sonnyluv. I will second the ascorbic acid suggestion, this has been shown to be quite effective with MDMA use so I see no reason why it wouldnt be aplicable to amphetamine. 

Per your usage of ALA it seems quite justified but why not dose 30 minutes before your amphetamines to better prevent neurotoxicity? I was always under the impression that it is far more effective when taken before the drug in question causing oxadative stress. Then simply drink some acidic juice to adjust PH. Or maybe I am mistaken about the timeframe, what do you think?

BTW this is a great thread because it has practical application for people who legitimately need amphetamines for medical reasons. So much great information and anecdotal reports to support it.


----------



## sonnyluv

Ancedotal is the simplest and most effective way for collecting generalized info, I find. From a managerial point of view it is also an efficient method when employee review time comes. Who did what, what date , to who, how often and how many nurses are pregnant because of it?
My problem with the ALA prior to daily lift off is that the sudden decrease in Ph will affect absorbtion almost as much as say, a fatty meal. In theory I think your idea is more effective, and I have taken ascorbic acid prior to dosing , it definitely feels cleaner- but you've shortened the duration of , depending on your situation and what needs to be accomplished, a probably rapidly receding time frame of therapeutic activity. Don't want to jinx it. I also don't take PPI or acid reducers prior to dose because then I get the opposite effect, a heavy burn which leaves me shorthanded. Man its a delicate balance.
My understanding is that neurotox comes towards the end of meth cycle, on the downward slope, caused by hyperthermia. My prescribed doses may cause minimal amounts of this but unlikely-I don't know- is neurotox a serious issue with any phetamine derivative even at prescribed doasages?


----------



## f13nd

I've tried taking antacids with amphetamine.  Works great
Taking magnesium didnt really make me notice much, i didnt get any horrid side effects like the shakes, but I also don't get much euphoria/rush either.

This leads me to this question, if magnesium will reduce the tolerance to amphetamine what exact parts of 'tolerance' does it effect?  I noticed dulled positive effects on magnesium...which makes me wonder about the phenomenon "reverse tolerance" or sensitization to its psychological effects. As a result, regular users commonly experience a quick decrease of unwanted side effects, without an equivalent loss of its stimulant properties.

reverse tolerance kinda makes sense to me, I assume that it must take longer to replenish Norepinepherine or perhaps its reuptake is very weak compared to DA. either way, continuous exposure to raised NE in ur blood must raise tolerance to the physiological effects while dopamine gets reuptaken(?) faster.  am i close?

If naturally your body will adjust to the physical aspects of amp but not necessarily the mental and euphoric parts then can having reverse tolerance while taking magnesium perhaps either allow less reverse tolerance (More negative physical effects) or have more of an all around tolerance effect (less physical and mental stimulation), adding to both mental and physical.


I just find magnesium tweaks to be a step above caffiene in terms of actual effects.  Anyone think maybe ditch the supplements and just use every few days to build up the reverse tolerance.


I used to use 20mg xr by prescription, 40mg crushed adderall XR recreationally with some tums nad feel amazing, tingling body pleasure, great mood, confidence, stamina, concentration.

I noticed sometimes now that If i go above a certain dose only the negative effects increase.  I dunno what I should take to make my amp runs more enjoyable.
I have l-tyrosine, 5htp, benadryl, tums, magnesium chelate, lorazepam, some delysm


----------



## f13nd

bump because i want to know more about reverse tolerance and tolerance reduction mechanisms of action


----------



## filenet

i find moclobemide + ice is an awesome combo.........extends the effect x10


----------



## faded blue

so do you take the magnesium *before* the adderall or at the same time?? how long should it take to notice the difference?


----------



## f13nd

would drugs that inhibit calcium channels work to lower some tolerance? The reason I ask is that I see amlopidine a blood pressure med does this to help regulate bp, figured maybe it deals with the norepinepherine etc...


----------



## eu4ia

where is the best place to find magnesium citrate?


----------



## grue

I currently take 10mg of memantine daily (may raise it high as 30mg), and on Tuesday or so I should have a chance to try the Daytrana methylphenidate patch.

Updates to come.

Specifically with this I hope to retain the initial mood-boosting, motivating psychostimulant effect, which for me acquires very rapid tolerance (giving way to a more robotic focus), and which I feel is actually more therapeutic for me than the later effect.


----------



## <pyridinyl_30>

Ketamine, PCP, and DXM are plenty neurotoxic all by themselves.  Amphetamine less so, but more so if taken daily.  Drug holidays are the best way to reverse amphetamine tolerance, except maybe for MDMA tolerance which may be permanent.  Moderation really is important, especially with methamphetamine.  However, even such a powerful psychostimulant as that can be used occasionally without breaking the bank if you're careful.  The biggest reason methylphenidate is less toxic than amphetamine and methamphetamine is that it lasts much, much less long.  Wellbutrin is hardly active at all.


----------



## nuke

Dextromethorphan is not likely to be neurotoxic at all orally:


> Oral administration of dextromethorphan does not produce neuronal vacuolation in the rat brain
> 
> Dextromethorphan is a widely used antitussive agent, also showing increased recreational abuse. Dextromethorphan and its metabolite dextrorphan are non-competitive antagonists at the N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor ion channel. Single doses of some NMDA receptor antagonists produce neuropathologic changes in neurons of the retrosplenial/posterior cingulate cortices (RS/PC), characterized by vacuolation or neurodegeneration. To determine whether dextromethorphan produces these characteristic lesions, dextromethorphan was administered orally either as a single dose of 120 mg/kg to female rats, or daily for 30 days at doses of 5–400 mg/(kg day) to male rats and 5–120 mg/(kg day) to female rats. Brains were examined microscopically for evidence of neuronal vacuolation (4–6 h postdose) and neurodegeneration (24 or 48 h postdose). Administration of dextromethorphan at 120 mg/(kg day) in females, and at ≥150 mg/(kg day) in males produced marked behavioral changes, indicative of neurologic effects. Mortality occurred at the highest doses administered. There were no detectable neuropathologic changes following single or repeated oral administration of dextromethorphan at any dose. Administration of MK-801 (9 mg/kg) produced both cytoplasmic vacuolation and neuronal degeneration in neurons of the RS/PC cortex. Thus characteristic neuropathologic changes found with more potent NMDA receptor antagonists do not occur following single or repeated oral administration of dextromethorphan.



http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=b2de36faca3b32c672c4814c1553d5be

Even if the rats die from enormous amounts of DXM orally, they still do not manifest traditional NMDA neurotoxicity.


----------



## grue

A boatload of conjecture from you:

>Ketamine, PCP, and DXM are plenty neurotoxic all by themselves. 

Not demonstrated in humans or primates, except with PCP which has certain additional neurotoxic mechanisms that the other NMDA antagonists do not share, such as induction of the capsase-3 apoptosis system (which THC also activates in the hippocampus).

>Amphetamine less so, but more so if taken daily

Definitely not shown to be so in therapeutic doses, or really anything less than very massive doses that produce hyperthermia and direct neurotoxicity from DA.

>The biggest reason methylphenidate is less toxic than amphetamine and methamphetamine is that it lasts much, much less long. 

It's actually the mode of action.

>Wellbutrin is hardly active at all.

Untrue.


----------



## f13nd

Wow.  I almost just posted an epic novel of my life story in this quick reply.  Saved that as a journal entry...but the amusing part is if you see what I just said and correlate it to the rest of this, theres some proof.

Cutting out details.  I used to use this, abuse it, abstained for about 3 months...then decided i really do need to use it for school.

steady adderall xr use 30mg daily for months
accidentally got scripted IR not XR and then had it fixed for XR but had an extra bottle of IR now
Started using IR alternating with XR at times
eventually started to crush XR and parachute on days I wanted them to come on stronger.
Around this time dose started to increase to an extra 15 mg since i had the extra bottle...
Then came getting invited to my friends djing at a club and other clubbing events
I don't drink, smoke weed, or do any other drugs anymore, only other drug I use is clonazepam, and I WILL NOT abuse that, I've seen where benzo abuse takes you, and not going back there...that is merely something for longstanding insomnia and social anxiety (pre-existing to ADD diagnosis)
Started popping 60 mg IR
Started doing 60 on and off on regular days...but not all at once like on the club nights
eventually every other weekend or every weekend id do 90mg in one sitting
started to lose its effect...so I started blowing 60....
I got an extra 10mg IR added to my 30mg xr script
as finals approached, just to get basically baseline i needed 60mg, and to get focused or motivated it took 90.   Ended up doing about 240 mg over two days (spread out doses)
but I never quite as focused as I used to be.  never felt high at all.

Once finals were over, I saw where this was going, decided to say fuck this shit I'm not wasting my script, my mental energy, and being depending on unreasonable amounts of amphetamine just to function, not even get the therapeutic effect.

abstained from usage for 5 days completely, took tyrosine, choline, nootropics, brain supplements, etc.

Today I decided, just to see how it goes, to take 30mg, less than my full prescribed dose, along with a tablespoon of delsym and some magnesium.

Not only did I get the euphoria and motivation, but I also got the focus and energy and I DIDN'T FOR ONCE end up with freezing cold fingers!!!  and its lasted much longer than using 4 times as much has and im not crashing.  

Personally, I think that along with vitamins and supplements to restore neurotransmitters, taking a few day breaks between using as well as using dxm and magnesium with your dosage can change the outcome of your entire experience.

one thing i've considered...while using adderall daily, i also used nootropics....
they counteract the nmda effects magnesium and dxm have i think..atleast the racetams.
i didnt use any today..
could aniracetam/other racetams possibly increase tolerance while using them?


----------



## youknowwhatyoudid

I love speed, I do it whenever possible, not to sound like a dork, but I didn't get a chance to read through all of the discussion forum.  Sorry, just thought I'd put my two cents in.  I have experimented mostly IV with the use of speed.  I've melted down most likely every stimulant pill that exists, and they all have the same results, sitting in bed late at night with my mind racing, excessive productivity in my promotional business and occasionally a bit of paranoia.  The paranoia is worth it though.  I love the stuff, ain't giving it up anytime soon.


----------



## nasho123

*Alternating Ephedrine with Adderall*

Hi All.  Great thread!

A bit of history first.  For about the past 3 years, I have been taking ephedrine to help me get the "kick" I needed to go to the gym and be productive at work, etc.  Lately however, I had been building up a HUGE tolerance to the stuff and not only was I afraid of what I was doing to my body, but it was getting rediculously expensive. 

I finally decided to see someone about my symptoms (fatigue, lack of motivation/concentration) and I was diagnosed with ADHD.  I was prescribed Adderall XR, 20mg, once a day.  I've been taking it for about a week now and it has been great.  I think I was probably self-medicating myself with the ephedrine, as it seemed to give me the energy and motivation I needed to get through my busy work schedule.  However, now I'm worried about biulding a tolerance to the Adderall and my search for answers brought me to this thread.

My question is, does anyone know, or think it would be effective to use Adderall for about 2 weeks straight, and then switch over to the ephedrine for two weeks?  Does anyone think this would prevent building a tolerance with respect to both substances?  Or, are ephedrine and Adderall so similar in their method of action that this would not work?  Do they both hit the same receptor sites?

Thanks in advance!!


----------



## daily_amphetamine

nasho,

There shouldn't be a cross-tolerance between Adderall and ephedrine, so your schedule should work fine. I recently took a 2 week holiday from Adderall, and it helped a lot with tolerance. I can now get away with taking 20mg a day less then before the holiday. I took 3,000 mg of L-tyrosine, emergen-c, green tea extract and plenty of caffeine everyday to cope with withdrawals while on the holiday.

I'm my opinion, ephedrine is nasty in comparison to Adderall; you may want to reconcider it as a substitute for Adderall and save your money for supplements that reduce amphetamine tolerance. 20mg a day of Adderall is a relatively low dose, so it will be easy to build a bit of a tolerance to it. You may want to consider asking your doctor to increase your dose if tolerance begins to build. 

It's essential that you take supplements (all of which are already mentioned in this thread and should not be overlooked) that reduce tolerance and help with fatigue like:
L-tyrosine, 
chelated magnesium
b-vitamin complex

and supplements that are neuroprotective like green tea extract

I hope this helps...


----------



## Solarhersteller

Wow... this would be a great thread.


----------



## RequiemForAnEgo

Very impressive thread. It seems to have sparked a lot of interest in quite a few sites that I frequent.
I have a concern though, when taking DXM daily one would expect to build a tolerance to it, as one would to any other drug. So would that DXM tolerance affect it's ability to curb amphetamine tolerance? 
I'd assume a tolerance would build to the other possible NMDA antagonists listed as well, considering that they're drugs just the same. If so, this presents a problem to the entire idea of using drugs to curb tolerance to other drugs..

I was also wondering if anyone who's been on a regimen could post their experiences? How efficacious the treatment is, what supplements were used, what doses were used, etc;

also a bit of food for thought; DXM has been known to potentate amphetamines, could this be a possible mechanism as to why one feels that their tolerance is lowered? Simply abstaining from taking any NMDA antagonists or amphetamines for a day or two and then dosing your average dose of amphetamines would probably clear that up.

Also, magnesium is often used as an antacid. Antacids increase amphetamine absorption. Could this be the real mechanism in action as opposed to the NMDA antagonist theory?

So far I can find little research on the topic, so anecdotal evidence seems like the only way to go, as unreliable as it may sometimes be. I think we need ample evidence before starting a similar regimen, as NMDA antagonists seems to have a 'dumbing down' effect which would be contraindicated in therapeutic use.. anyone who's ever done high doses of DXM should be familiar with that. Personally, I feel like a goddam retard when I take ~240mg.


----------



## fryingsquirrel

Glad this thread got bumped, I've been meaning to add my experience for months. After first reading this thread I decided to try DXM with my next meth run. I did 60 mgs (4 of the robo cough gels) twice a day, though I probably missed a dose or two given my mental state. I finally decide to stop when my wife told me I'd been up 12 days. I didn't believe her at first, until I thought about it a minute. And I was still doing the same (admittedly very high) dose I had been doing on day one. No paranoia or amphetamine psychosis, while I'm prone to neither after nearly two weeks without sleep their absence seems worth noting. My schedule hasn't permited this kind of meth abuse since, but when it does I definately will be using DXM with it.


----------



## MeDieViL

fryingsquirrel said:


> Glad this thread got bumped, I've been meaning to add my experience for months. After first reading this thread I decided to try DXM with my next meth run. I did 60 mgs (4 of the robo cough gels) twice a day, though I probably missed a dose or two given my mental state. I finally decide to stop when my wife told me I'd been up 12 days. I didn't believe her at first, until I thought about it a minute. And I was still doing the same (admittedly very high) dose I had been doing on day one. No paranoia or amphetamine psychosis, while I'm prone to neither after nearly two weeks without sleep their absence seems worth noting. My schedule hasn't permited this kind of meth abuse since, but when it does I definately will be using DXM with it.



You mind posting your experience in my thread?
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=501875


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## MeDieViL

Answered in bold



RequiemForAnEgo said:


> Very impressive thread. It seems to have sparked a lot of interest in quite a few sites that I frequent.
> I have a concern though, when taking DXM daily one would expect to build a tolerance to it, as one would to any other drug. So would that DXM tolerance affect it's ability to curb amphetamine tolerance?
> I'd assume a tolerance would build to the other possible NMDA antagonists listed as well, considering that they're drugs just the same. If so, this presents a problem to the entire idea of using drugs to curb tolerance to other drugs..
> 
> *No tolerance to the anti tolerance effect of NMDA antagonists wont occur.*
> 
> I was also wondering if anyone who's been on a regimen could post their experiences? How efficacious the treatment is, what supplements were used, what doses were used, etc;
> 
> *Check the link i posted above, i collected a lot of anecdotal experiences.*
> 
> also a bit of food for thought; DXM has been known to potentate amphetamines, could this be a possible mechanism as to why one feels that their tolerance is lowered? Simply abstaining from taking any NMDA antagonists or amphetamines for a day or two and then dosing your average dose of amphetamines would probably clear that up.
> 
> *No, the reason NMDA antagonists work is probably because they increase dopamine receptor density and effectively counteract downregulation.*
> 
> *If they worked just by potentiating amp, then tolerance would still occur after a while.*
> 
> *Couple refs:
> (PMID: 1382178) Chronic administration of NMDA antagonists induces D2 receptor synthesis in rat.
> D2 binding studies carried out in MK-801 chronically treated (0.3 mg/kg/day per os, for 50 days) and control rats revealed an increased receptor density in treated animals without a significant change in receptor affinity.
> 
> (PMID: 10443547) Adaptations of NMDA and dopamine D2, but not of muscarinic receptors following 14 days administration of uncompetitive NMDA receptor antagonists.
> The same treatment with amantadine did increase [3H]raclopride binding to dopamine D2 receptors by 13.5%.
> 
> (PMID: 12832726 Effect of combined treatment with imipramine and amantadine on the central dopamine D2 and D3 receptors in rats.
> We can conclude that repeated administration of AMA, given together with IMI, induces the up-regulation of dopamine D2 and D3 receptors in the rat brain.
> 
> (PMID: 10096038) Modulation of dopamine D2 receptor expression by an NMDA receptor antagonist in rat brain.
> In the striatum, a significant increase in striatal dopamine D2 receptor mRNA levels was shown in animals treated with CPP.*
> 
> Also, magnesium is often used as an antacid. Antacids increase amphetamine absorption. Could this be the real mechanism in action as opposed to the NMDA antagonist theory?
> 
> So far I can find little research on the topic, so anecdotal evidence seems like the only way to go, as unreliable as it may sometimes be. I think we need ample evidence before starting a similar regimen, as NMDA antagonists seems to have a 'dumbing down' effect which would be contraindicated in therapeutic use.. anyone who's ever done high doses of DXM should be familiar with that. Personally, I feel like a goddam retard when I take ~240mg.
> 
> *Memantine has little cognitive effects in most people after the adaptation phase, i take 60mg /day and only notice extra clarity, altough there can be some decline, i dont notice it.*


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## fryingsquirrel

MeDieViL said:


> You mind posting your experience in my thread?
> http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=501875


I'd be happy to.


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## Gormur

Advanced-apologies if this isn't the best thread for this post:

Anecdotally, I have noted [co-administered] glutamine (an amide of glutamic acid) to markedly enhance/potentiate the pharmacological-effects of amphetamines -- of which i also suspect; through my somewhat limited comprehension of pubmed papers re: glutamate - its properties and functions; namely w/re: NMDA receptors & glutamate-neurotransmission  

In any case.. hot (no A/C in my house + 30C indoor temp = fried brain), burnt out, and under-stimulated, i nevertheless felt the need to add this brief post here as i knew i would forget to do so later on -- also, due to a _severe_ lack of information on glutamine & glutamate neuroscience/pharmacology online... Well, i hope to get some response and possibly stimulate discussion on this subject - especially from those well-versed in such

_Addendum_: Basic info from a basic source: for the curious; (only this, before i go digging through papers tomorrow when i can think properly)--



> Neurotransmitter
> Glutamate is the most abundant excitatory neurotransmitter in the vertebrate nervous system. At chemical synapses, glutamate is stored in vesicles. Nerve impulses trigger release of glutamate from the pre-synaptic cell. In the opposing post-synaptic cell, glutamate receptors, such as the NMDA receptor, bind glutamate and are activated. Because of its role in synaptic plasticity, glutamate is involved in cognitive functions like learning and memory in the brain.[5] The form of plasticity known as long-term potentiation takes place at glutamatergic synapses in the hippocampus, neocortex, and other parts of the brain. Glutamate works not only as a point-to-point transmitter but also through spill-over synaptic crosstalk between synapses in which summation of glutamate released from a neighboring synapse creates extrasynaptic signaling/volume transmission.[6]
> 
> Glutamate transporters[7] are found in neuronal and glial membranes. They rapidly remove glutamate from the extracellular space. In brain injury or disease, they can work in reverse, and excess glutamate can accumulate outside cells. This process causes calcium ions to enter cells via NMDA receptor channels, leading to neuronal damage and eventual cell death, and is called excitotoxicity. The mechanisms of cell death include



Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid
Link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamine#Producing_and_consuming_organs


Final note: rectal admin of L-glutamine hcl [dissolved in water] (single, unspecified mg-dosages), anecdotally, seems/feels to have optimal BBB-permeability.. Conversely, oral admin seems to have only a diuretic effect; minus any psychoactivity noted w/rectal admin

-G


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## [skrillex]]

copasetik said:


> this thread = gold.



+1 :d


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## Fyasko.

bump


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## ebola?

I found little if any luck with this, but my ketamine regimen wasn't regular enough to tell, and it looks like DXM isn't very effective (relatively).

ebola


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## Epsilon Alpha

I discuss it more in length in my thread, but one of the big avenues for tolerance prevention is inhibition of CREB and histone acetylation. If you can slow down the changes in gene expression that amphetamines induce you should be able to reduce the buildup of tolerance.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=577851

If memory serves that Unlucky guy methylated the hell out of his DNA using some sort of amphetamine and that's one of the causes of his severe issues.


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## Fyasko.

ebola? said:


> I found little if any luck with this, but my ketamine regimen wasn't regular enough to tell, and it looks like DXM isn't very effective (relatively).
> 
> ebola



Have you tried using magnesium?


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## Vaya

ebola? said:


> I found little if any luck with this [...] it looks like DXM isn't very effective (relatively).
> 
> ebola



I was disappointed to read this. Nevertheless I thought I'd give several suggestions in this thread a try. Will anyone knowledgable on this subject (preferably someone with a positive anecdotal experience) critique this regimen:

This morning I woke up as usual. We'll call this precisely T+0:00.

T+0:05 - Took (all orally, empty stomach)
1 tablet B-12 1000mcg
1 tablet Folic Acid 400mcg
1 tablet Selenium 200mcg
1 capsule 5-HTP 100mg
1 capsule Alpha-Lipoic Acid 100mg

T+0:35 (half hour later) took (again, orally, empty stomach save for the aforementioned pills)
*2* "combination" tablets (each pill contains Calcium Carbonate 1000mg, Magnesium Oxide - 400mg, Zinc Oxide - 15mg & Copper (as Cupric Oxide) - 1mg)
1 capsule L-Glutamine 1,000mg
7.5mL Delsym (which equates to 45mg dextromethorphan hydrobromide)
*2* tablets Dextro-Methamphetamine HCl (each pill contains 5mg)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I'm most interested in learning A.) whether or not I took anything that was incorrect (I realize tolerance is mediated by Ca++ influx but considering my only source of Magnesium was in that combination pill, I took it anyway even though it contains 1,000mg Calcium), B.) whether I should increase, decrease or completely eliminate my dosage of any of the supplements/Delsym and C.) whether or not this regimen, if effective at reducing tolerance to amphetamines, might in any way promote even partial reverse-tolerance (less tolerance to the dopamine agonism but more tolerance to NE agonism since I'll be keeping my dose constant without increasing it).

Thanks, this thread ought to be added to the Best of Bluelight if it's not already!

*~ vaya*


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## DexterMeth

phenytoin


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## ebola?

> Have you tried using magnesium?



Yes.  I supplement with it in general.  No, it didn't stave accrual of tolerance to stimulants or reduce tolerance more quickly during breaks.  Now, life circumstances have me on a longer break, which I don't mind.

ebola


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## Amu

In reference to grue and nuke's posts about potential neurotoxicity of NMDA antagonists, it may be true that Ketamine/DXM haven't been proven as neurotoxins in humans, however this does not take into account possible (and even likely) unwanted neuronal adaptations such as cognitive effects on memory/learning/attention. Marijuana per se is not neurotoxic in usual doses, but it almost certainly has unwanted cognitive effects on higher order prefrontal cortex functioning, and ketamine shares these side effects too.


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## SNR

Tons if useful information in this thread. Thanks for starting it!


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## Anonymous221

Thanks!!! this thread helped my dog so many, his tolerance dropped to a safe level. he was in the dosage area of very risk. he had 2 little breaks to lower tolerance, and almost always using around 10-25mg dxm to it now. It helped 100% he need so little and he days on it already. he no aderall patient, but he take europe racemic amphetamine paste. his dosage in last months has decreased so many, and effects gone up! I have ordered memantine for him now, and looks how this goes. also he use on and on l-theanine, magnesium, p5p almost daily and a few times a weak calcium / magnesium 2:1 he realy love nmda antagonist now, on end of his strong binge he only used tons of amphetamine to get sober. now he need almost as little as when he did it for the first time. and he had only 2 breaks one of 6 day and one of 4 day, that lowered it alot and nmda prevent gaining it back  Also eating healthy is very very important too, when i not eat enough i dont get energy. he use non medically doses, so eating alot is very important becuz body uses more energy. when u eat even less u will loose muscle, and get boney. Alot dogs around me who binge long term look very unhealthy, my dog using almost daily since a half year and he even get more Muscles from it becuz he eat properly.he dont even workout, just from the normal walks he get it becuz he cramp his muscle a bit more  + healthy food. Also he was up once 5 day in row, and he felt like sober he only did go sleep becuz he got worried that its not normal to feel so good after so long up, and becuz he know its very brain toxic. he wish he could make release tabs in medical doses, becuz in netherland u wont get aderall prescribed if ur healthy young dog and have work and no problems...  he still have the bad binge to snort the powder.. i know its very bad and i hope he stops that and start using oral.


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## Disylus

Crankinit said:


> See, you can tell this dude likes his speed.



oh god im glad someone said it. as i was reading thru that post small mental cartoons of a guy busting open caffeine pills and filling them with meth crystals filled my mind.

dont take offense buddy, its just well, we know our own kind and if you werent speeding when you typed that then i do believe meth probably made you go fast enough to travel back in time.

now on to the reason for my post.

ive read thru this considerable and informative thread, unfortunately i have consistently only seen methods and suggestion for tolerance prevention. and it appears most of the posts are from people whove been using 9 to 14 months.  

so i ask, does anyone have any concrete info about tolerance reduction?
i have used on a regular basis for just over four years now, and while i probably should be a emoticon wielding cartoon outrunning wily coyote to get some blu lighters by now (lmao im sorry i couldnt resist), instead i still have yet to hold intelligent conversations with carpet fibers, or any of the other fun tell tale end of days signs ive seen tweakers exhibit at rock bottom.

but while i maintained a decent steady effect by regularly changing sources and kinds of meth, (yeah no bs here i dont get prescruibed shit unless the black dude with a grill on the corner is a certified pharmacist) these past couple months it seems even changing compositions regularly isnt really helping maintain a low tolerance.
now having smoked meth on a daily or weekly (mostly daily) basis for so long, and constantly cycling thru every different kind i could find, id imagine my tolerance is far past any "preventative" stages.

so is there a way to reduce it?
im sure someone will post the obvious answer of stopping for an extended period will help. well yeah no crap, but its that very reason that i checked this thread out. because after four years, its becoming so hard to get high that ive started to seriously lose interest in trying most days. yes thats right, for all of you who do use how often have you heard of someone getting bored into sobriety? i havent, ever. usually the tried and true tweaker troops just keep blowin grams n grams trying, such is the nature of the addiction. and im sure i was no exception once, but ive been surprised to hear myself turn down meth twice this week, having thouight "itd be rude to say yes id be wasting their dope and my time"

thats fucking depressing guys. i liked being high, and i would like to continue being high. and all the moral naysayers wholl be whippin out their soapboxes right here can shove it. i was in a dead end pizza job before id ever even seen a drug and had no plans to go anywhere with life. two weeks after starting meth i got fascinated with drawing and doodling, something id hardly ever done in mylife. then it was microsoft paint finally photoshop and onward and now i have an excellent career as a graphic designer and film editor, with not one day of college for either subject, just endless hours thru nights browsing internet tutorials and playing around with programs or sketchpads. so soapboxers can blow me  thx in advance for your answers, and i expect, humorous criticisms, jibes, and "pokings of fun"


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## Epsilon Alpha

Disylus said:


> oh god im glad someone said it. as i was reading thru that post small mental cartoons of a guy busting open caffeine pills and filling them with meth crystals filled my mind.
> 
> dont take offense buddy, its just well, we know our own kind and if you werent speeding when you typed that then i do believe meth probably made you go fast enough to travel back in time.
> 
> now on to the reason for my post.
> 
> ive read thru this considerable and informative thread, unfortunately i have consistently only seen methods and suggestion for tolerance prevention. and it appears most of the posts are from people whove been using 9 to 14 months.
> 
> so i ask, does anyone have any concrete info about tolerance reduction?
> i have used on a regular basis for just over four years now, and while i probably should be a emoticon wielding cartoon outrunning wily coyote to get some blu lighters by now (lmao im sorry i couldnt resist), instead i still have yet to hold intelligent conversations with carpet fibers, or any of the other fun tell tale end of days signs ive seen tweakers exhibit at rock bottom.
> 
> but while i maintained a decent steady effect by regularly changing sources and kinds of meth, (yeah no bs here i dont get prescruibed shit unless the black dude with a grill on the corner is a certified pharmacist) these past couple months it seems even changing compositions regularly isnt really helping maintain a low tolerance.
> now having smoked meth on a daily or weekly (mostly daily) basis for so long, and constantly cycling thru every different kind i could find, id imagine my tolerance is far past any "preventative" stages.
> 
> so is there a way to reduce it?
> im sure someone will post the obvious answer of stopping for an extended period will help. well yeah no crap, but its that very reason that i checked this thread out. because after four years, its becoming so hard to get high that ive started to seriously lose interest in trying most days. yes thats right, for all of you who do use how often have you heard of someone getting bored into sobriety? i havent, ever. usually the tried and true tweaker troops just keep blowin grams n grams trying, such is the nature of the addiction. and im sure i was no exception once, but ive been surprised to hear myself turn down meth twice this week, having thouight "itd be rude to say yes id be wasting their dope and my time"
> 
> thats fucking depressing guys. i liked being high, and i would like to continue being high. and all the moral naysayers wholl be whippin out their soapboxes right here can shove it. i was in a dead end pizza job before id ever even seen a drug and had no plans to go anywhere with life. two weeks after starting meth i got fascinated with drawing and doodling, something id hardly ever done in mylife. then it was microsoft paint finally photoshop and onward and now i have an excellent career as a graphic designer and film editor, with not one day of college for either subject, just endless hours thru nights browsing internet tutorials and playing around with programs or sketchpads. so soapboxers can blow me  thx in advance for your answers, and i expect, humorous criticisms, jibes, and "pokings of fun"



Well currently the whole "NMDA antagonist" approach has the most scientific backing for preventing tolerance, and a mixed review for reversing it. Memantine, DXM and magnesium are the most reported on on this forum if you check out one of MeDeViL's threads on it.
I've got a pet approach using curcumin detailed in my threads to target epigenetic changes induced by drugs. Its a mixed bag too as 9/21 people had it significantly reduce their tolerances while it really didn't do anything after a 2 week "boost" for the others. 

But, and this is me trying to keep off my moral soap box, if its not giving you the effects you want at least take a month off to give yourself a chance to recover and get some decent sleep. Other than that, all I can really say just the standard: workout, eat right, and get some sun.


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## sunshine.hurricane

Ok..so just needing a quick answer. When taking mag chel...when do you take it? Before during or after? I've seen the question asked, but never found a straight to the point answer, so figured I'd give it a shot.


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## Jabberwocky

sunshine.hurricane said:


> Ok..so just needing a quick answer. When taking mag chel...when do you take it? Before during or after? I've seen the question asked, but never found a straight to the point answer, so figured I'd give it a shot.


Daily as a supplement with your other vitamins. Timing relative to meth consumption doesn’t matter much so long as you maintain the levels in your body overall.


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## sunshine.hurricane

Thank you so much


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