# A guide to opioid addiction treatments and other medications used for withdrawal



## cashtothemoney

I thought this would be helpful to all of you trying to get clean. I spent the last hour revising it, and editing it. Feel free to pass this along.

*A Guide to Opiate Withdrawal* by cashtothemoney
_(w/ help from our over-the-counter friends)_

_*DISCLAIMER:* I'm not a doctor, but I have been reading about this sort of thing extensively for a very long time. This is not medical advice, but rather my own experience which you can take from what you want. In order to be in line with my own morals (and the LAW!), I have to say that it would be best to review this with a doctor before making any decisions. All drugs listed, with the exception of one, can be bought over-the-counter, but this does not mean that it is automatically "safe"._

*Introduction*

Expect the worst in withdrawal. It might not be "crazy", but it sure as hell won't be comfortable. At the same time, for some of you, it will be the hardest experience of your life. Lack of energy, muscle/bone aches, diarrhea, insomnia, depression, anxiety. It can be hell, but you can ease all of these withdrawal symptoms with over-the-counter drugs. I've survived it a few times, and as long as you keep yourself busy it can be made a bit easier. The physical part is somewhat similar to having the flu, but magnified depending on the dose/frequency of use/duration of use; however, I think I can speak for most people when I say, the mental struggle that follows the physical withdrawal is MUCH worse. This is given as a possible alternative to therapies such as methadone, buprenorphine, etc. Good luck to all of those attempting to rid themselves of addiction.

The intensity and length of opiate withdrawal will depend on a few factors. The larger the dose, the more intense the withdrawal. The longer you have been using, the longer and more intense the withdrawal will be. If you did it once a day, it might take a few days for the withdrawal to kick in. If you took opiates shortly before bed, insomnia might be the biggest problem. If you took opiates when you woke up, you might not feel like getting out of bed without them. All of this could be wrong, or it could all be right on the money. The point is opiate withdrawal will differ for everyone; however, it will universally suck.

*The Essentials*

Positive mindset
A multivitamin
Courage
Determination
An understanding that _this_ is not forever.

*Diarrhea*


_Immodium A.D._ - 4-6mg loperamide per 50-60mg of oxycodone/hydrocodone. (May vary!)
Try not to take this too often as it can make you REALLY constipated, but it can get rid of (in my experience as well as others) the majority of the physical withdrawal symptoms. Just remember that loperamide is an opiate, so it's better to only take if NEEDED. Laxatives can counter the constipation or try the natural route, fruit or olive oil.
_Note:_ It is very important that you keep in mind that loperamide is an opiate, so you must also taper yourself off of loperamide, which can be done over the period of a few weeks to a month. This will let you start dealing with any mental dependency issues almost right away, which will be the hardest part of coming off opiates.

*Insomnia*


_Benzodiazepines:_ Exercise EXTREME caution if you plan on using any sort of benzodiazepines to ease the insomnia. Examples of benzos include diazepam (Valium), alprazolam (Xanax), and clonazepam (Klonopin/Rivotril). For myself alprazolam and clonazepam work the best, although I will not recommend obtaining these illegally.  Working your way up from 0.5mg (assuming you have no tolerance) until you find your dose may be helpful. ONLY take these if you absolutely need them. I can't stress that enough. Benzodiazepines are, in my humble opinion, more addicting than opiates, and it is a fact that they are more dangerous. They are one of the few classes of drugs that can include DEATH in the withdrawal. Another positive aspect of using benzos would be the fact that it can really take the edge off if/when you are feeling stressed out and anxious. Research them extensively before you use them, as you do *NOT* want to trade addictions. If you are taking buprenorphine as an aid during withdrawal, do not take any benzodiazepines, as this combination has resulted in death.
_Diphenhydramine: _This is an antihistamine which includes drowsiness as one of the side effects which makes it a great candidate for a sleep aid. It works wonders for many opiate addicts and I think this would be better to use than any benzos.

*Bone/Muscle Aches (with a little bit of advice for the mental part as well)*

Ibuprofen, Naproxen (Recommended dose/as needed)
ABSOLUTELY *NO* OPIATES! The only way one can use opiates is if they are tapering. There are hardly any people with the willpower, and self-discipline to actually complete a successful taper. The road to becoming clean must be taken one day at a time, maybe even one hour or one minute at a time. Tell yourself to get through the next minute or hour. Reward yourself for getting through that period of time. If you start thinking about the next week, month, or year, you WILL overwhelm yourself.

*Lack of Energy/Depression*

*EXERCISE!* This is, by far, the number one way of combating the physical and mental part of withdrawal, including depression. You may not want to do anything, which could even include getting out of bed, but if you can motivate yourself to exercise, you will notice a dramatic increase in your energy levels and your mindset. This is what has made a dramatic difference each time I've gone through withdrawals. It is THE wonder drug, not to mention you can obtain the infamous “runner's high” after running for a certain amount of time.
_L-Tyrosine: _(Available at GNC) Studies show l-tyrosine will help with depression, energy levels, and other mood disorders. It is a precursor to dopamine (the Almighty), norepinephrine, epinephrine, and L-dopa. Epinephrine and norepinephrine are two of the body’s stress-related hormones, and l-tyrosine’s role in their creation can help ease the negative effects of stress. Starting at 2000mg per day, and adjusting is one way to begin. Vitamin B6 is essential in the creation of the neurotransmitters, so be sure to take the it along with the l-tyrosine.
_Vitamin B6:_ Vitamin B6 helps in the creation of serotonin (the “happy” neurotransmitter), dopamine, norepinephrine, and GABA (the mechanism in which benzodiazepines work through; reduces stress levels; induces relaxation). So one can easily see why B6 is beneficial. It also provides energy, and as said before, is essential in the conversion of l-tyrosine to the various neurotransmitters.
_*FIND SOMEONE YOU CAN TALK TO!* _We all need to vent. Find a friend, someone on this forum, a psychologist, etc. It is essential if you want to succeed.
Think about all of the things that can be done now. Money in the bank, be around for family/friends, not worry about your next fix, not be sick all the time, etc.

*Other supplements that could help:* Kava (anxiety), valerian root (anxiety/insomnia).

*Closing Notes*

The worst of the physical withdrawal will most likely be over after the 4th day. It typically lasts 3-5 days and fades off after that, but can last as long as a week (longer with opiates with a long half-life, such as methadone). I've found the fourth day to be the worst, and once you are over that hump you start to feel physically better. Then, it is time to deal with the mental problems that result.

If you have friends that do drugs, you have to separate yourself from them. Unless you are superman, or have an abnormal sense of self-discipline, you will have to do this as the temptation is too great for most. Getting away for a week can really make all the difference in the world. Staying clean is a lifelong journey, and if that is what you are after, YOU CAN DO IT! Don’t give up if you have a bad day or are feeling a bit down. Keep yourself busy. It can make all the difference in the world. Start a new hobby, continue an old one, spend time with the family, go hiking, go for a walk, talk to a stranger, have a cup of coffee (avoid it in the beginning as this can worsen anxiety), etc.

As addicts, we might have started doing opiates for fun, or maybe to cover up problems. It might have only been a weekend romance, but that changed into a daily obsession. We might be broke, losing friends, and at rock bottom. Sometimes there are problems that we try to cover up, and a lot of emotions come out as the drug leaves our body. We have to get used to living a “normal” life, and dealing with “normal” problems. It is important to get to the root of the problems, and face them head on. There is no more hiding. After all, the REAL you is coming out from hiding as well. You mine as well make the most of it.

Best of luck to all of you in your endeavors. Godspeed.

*Additional Reading:*
L-tyrosine - http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Ency/Index.cfm/Id/2919008
Vitamin B6 - http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB6/


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## Blind Melon

Thank's, that was pretty helpful. I had completely forgotten about Kava, I should go get some tomorrow.


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## nexigram

That was very well done, although I am a little concerned about recomending Benzos. You did very clearly state that you should not cross-addict yourself and that you should not obtain them illegally when trying to kick opiates. The parts about how if you took opiates in the morning when you woke up were dead on. Same thing goes with if you took them to go to sleep. I personally take Buprenorphine and trazadone to help myself kick. Buprenorphine helps me get through the day without opiates and Trazadone helps me get to sleep at night but is widely considered a non-habit forming drug. It is one of 2 sleep aids my doctor would prescribe an addict. He says the rest are all habit-forming. 

Anyways very good job. You might not be a doctor but it was very well done anyways. You don't have to be a doctor to be intelligent enough to do the research on why you are feeling the way you are feeling. I hope this helps many people kick the most incredibly addictive drugs out there, opiates.

Good Luck and Enjoy Life, to everyone.


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## cashtothemoney

Feel free to make suggestions... I'd be happy to edit it and give credit where it is due! I think this could be very beneficial for everyone. Thanks for the compliment nexigram.

-hollywood


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## sylvan Wanderer

phreex had a opiate withdrawal guide as well somewhere and it seemed quite good.


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## cashtothemoney

Perhaps they could be combined...


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## JenniD

Thanks for the info, I unfortunately am a long time opiate user whos managed to quit and relapse many times. I used methadone for maintance for about 9 months and just realized i was just as addicted maybe even worse. The withdrawl from methadone was horrible, worse then heroin by far.  I managed to come off of 120 cutting back 5mgs every 3 days and then at 30 all toghther i was sick for a good month, and still felt syntoms for a few months. i then relapsed on heroin about 3 months ago, and Im trying over and over to kick the habit with out cuasing any other habits.  I always get to about 24 hours and it just becomes to much and i start back up.  I wish I could quit and want to more then anything, but i find myself still using and making it even worse. I am week and just wish for the strength to just quit. My yearning to quit makes me so depressed, but some how when i put it down and start withdrawl i feel as though that is all I want. then im high and want to quit and keep saying this is my last bundle and really at the time feel it is, until i feel the pain mentally and physically and just  forget about everything that matters and just want to get high. its a never ending bad cycle. Any suggestions  on kicking would be great.


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## Spucky

Also Clonodin is very effektiv for the Pain and it's calm you!
Attention, can be very dangerous- get the rigt info. before!!!


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## axl blaze

very well done. however, if this is an OTC guide to w/ding - why are benzos included since they are obviously not OTC drugs?

besides this you included everything I could think of.


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## cashtothemoney

I put them in there because they are practically OTC for some folks! (Though that is very dangerous thinking.) Maybe I should create another section of the guide and put it there... what do you think?


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## axl blaze

I think it is perfect the way it is. it was just a misnomer of sorts because the title was misleading. maybe you could just change the title or something... ? I don't know, it's your call. I have to say this guide is up there with phreex's opiate w/d guide - which is saying more than I can express


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## staypuft

great work on the guide...

just to add some hearsay: eating lots of cheese helps with the w/d

oh...and since benzos were included in the guide and they're not exactly OTC i can probably also add that Ketamine completely stops (postpones...?) all the physical and mental withdrawl from opiates...

i managed to not get dopesick for a couple of days by doing an IM every hour or so a while back...but i would NOT recommend this to anyone


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## cashtothemoney

-bump-


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## PIC

I can't belive that you have to taper from Immodium, are you sure?


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## hazejunk

we schould make this a sticky


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## oldhead

This is a great help but I go with good old Pepto Bismol. The mental part is a MFer and tapering is real hard when I know I have more available to do.


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## cashtothemoney

PIC said:
			
		

> I can't belive that you have to taper from Immodium, are you sure?



Positive.


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## Tokey-tokerson

Im normally a pretty energetic guy and excercise all that mumbo jumbo, but when withdrawing I just lock myself up in a room curl up and spend the next 3 days sweating and going mentally insane.


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## 'medicine cabinet'

great guide...i just recently kicked myself. i had 2 8mg suboxones about 10 1mg xanax 5 10mg valium, 6 .2 mg clonidines and weed and booze...in the peak of the WD the clonidine really helps with the "shock" feeling, although too much xanax/valium and clonidine you will fall out of bed and bump your head...i know i did....i got outta bed and had an insane headrush and str8 fell over in blackout mode for a hot second haha..but thats what i did this time to kick, done it dozens of times....no easy way to do it, the way that works the best imo is straight cold turkey

^^its what tokey said, locked in a room fetal position going bonkers for 3 days. its the most cathartic experience i think ive ever felt...getting so sick you are almost immobilized because it feels like your skin is melting and it hurts so bad to move. i always seemed to stay cleaner longer when i did it that way...relapses are part of the "road to recovery" but they still suck...


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## MTGG

depending on where u are. GBL will stop most of the cluck. although-hardly-otc-in-america-and-some-evidence-it-acts-on-opiod-receptors-but-no-withdrawal-from-it-after-3-4-days-which-should-cover-the-rattle


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## drfeelgood1

Loperamide IS NOT an opiate...


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## PIC

I'm sorry but I really don't think that you have to taper with Immodium, do you have any scientific literature to back that up? On the other side, I remember reading somewhere that it is an opiate which has a quite similar chemical structure to fentanyl.


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## TheTripDoctor

OK look fuckers, loperamide is a piperidine, its not related to phenathrenes like moprhine or oxycodone, but then again neither is fentanyl, so whats your definition of opiate?

You can discount what i say all you want, but i have plenty of credibility here both on this board and from real life experience and education, and i know for absolute certain that loperamide IS ACTIVE, it WILL stop withdrawl, not just symptoms, withdrawal itself. I've theorized as to the route of its action numerous times, one of the following is true.

A) it does make it into the brain in amounts far less than huge doses with enzymatic inhibition

B) a metabolite of it makes it into the brain in normal doses with enzymatic inhibition, if you stop metabolism of the primary route, secondary routes then become active in larger percentage.

C) loperamide or a metabolite bind to opiate receptors peripherally, and cause CNS activity that way.

Every single one of those routes is both possible and likely, so dont post crap about drugs having to get into the CNS for activity, and yes loperamide likely DOES get into the brain in only slightly higher than normal doses if you use an enzyme inhibitor like cimetidine, i have 3 years experience screwing with it every way possible.

And yes, if i had stopped taking it by itself there would have been withdrawl from it alone, so by implied logic you therefor have to taper it if youve taken enough for a period of time.

6mg isnt going to do shit though, in a tollerant person 6mg isnt even going to be capable of putting a dent in withdrawal, your not going to get to the point of needing to taper if you only take 6mg. 

48mg, yes, that point you would need to taper it back down, because 48mg is active.


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## PIC

"i have plenty of credibility here both on this board and from real life experience and education"

Yeah, whatever man, do you have scientific literature to back it up? I just want to see where it says that one can withdrawal from Immodium. Forget your credibility, that is quite subjective.


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## EudoXia

TripDoctor,

What dose of loperamide would you recomend someone start out if they were taking around 60mg of hydrocodone/daily, but quit taking it and is in w/ds?  I've used loperamide to help stop up my liquid G.I. tract, but have never noticed it helping with anything else.  Just keeps you from shitting the bed when you are in withdrawal, basically.


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## cashtothemoney

-bump-

this might be able to help someone...


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## Beans

Great work here!


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## AlphaOdure

*TABLE OF CONTENTS*



*Description and Pharmacology of Opioidergic Drug Replacement Therapies*_


     Methadone


     Levoacetylmethadol (LAAM)


     Buprenorphine


     Propoxyphene


     Codeine


     Tramadol


     Full Agonist Opioids_




*Description and Pharmacology of Non-Opioidergic Therapies*_


     Ibogaine/18-methoxycoronaridine


     Naltrexone Maintenance


     Rapid Detoxification_




*Listing of Pharmaceutical and Herbal Treatments for Withdrawal*_


Opioid Based Medicines (For treatment of dysphoria)


Non-Opioid Based Medicines (Classified by the symptomatic relief they provide; Generally non-dependence prone)_
         -Insomnia/Anxiety/Hypertension
         -Diarrha/Abdominal Cramping
         -Rhinorrhea (Increased salivation)/Lacrimation (Increased tear production)
         -Pyretic Sensations (Chills, fever)
         -Nausea
         -Aches, Pains_


Non-Barbituate & Non-Benzodiazepine M03B Class Muscle Relaxants (May help with anxiety, insomnia, and pain; Some may be habit forming)_




*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*




*OPIOIDERGIC DRUG REPLACEMENT THERAPIES*


_Methadone_
--------------------------------------
Methadone is a diphenylheptane-derivative, a potent mu-agonist opioid, and both an effective treatment for narcotic addiction and pain. Its duration of action is quite long, lasting anywhere from 12 - 36 hours, based on dosage. It has similar risks to that of traditional opioid narcotics regarding dependency, tolerance, and withdrawal. However, b/c longer acting drugs take longer to metabolize; less drug is introduced during a given interval of time--the result is a longer retained but less intense psychoactive effect. An example of this: dia-morphine (heroin) is metabolized more quickly than morphine due to its attatched diactyl-group; the result is heroin's shorter duration in action but more intense effects, producing more euphoria and a stronger rush.

Methdone also has a unique pharmacological action in having minor, non-competitive antagonist activity at NMDA receptors, similar to but weaker than drugs like dextromethorphan and ketamine. In a small percentage of people this can facilitate a varied response of unwanted side effects including: amnesia, catalepsy (sensation of rigid muscles), confusion, dysphoria, agitation, ataxia, and/or catatonia. 

However, methadone is also is a weak inhibitor of serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake. These properties give methadone an added benefit of being a minor anti-depressant. But because hypertension associated with withdrawal is attributed to elevated norepinephrine levels, methadone's SNRI activity can cause persisting, residual stimulation and hypertensive symptoms for a few days if MRT is started after a bout of withdrawal.

Methadone does have an added benefit of a blocking other opioids at and around 70 mg. Methadone isn't a competitive agonist, so it will not completely block other mu-agonists or precipitate withdrawal. This exact mechanism of blocking isn't known, but is sometimes attributed, and controversly so, to the fact that there is usually a ceiling effect on the euphoria and analgesia caused by most opioids that attain their primary psychoactive action from the activity of their corresponding metabolites. And b/c only so much of a certain molecule can be converted into a metabolite at once, a ceiling effect comes into play. But drugs which are active in themselves are still blocked to some degree by methadone. Other theories involving a maximum limit on immediate mu agonism are proposed but have no significant scientific evidence to date.

Unfortunately, withdrawal from methadone is notoriously unpleasant. If not tapered correctly, withdrawal and extreme discomfort can last up to 1 - 4 weeks. But even when done properly it can cause malaise-conditions (dysphoria associated with drug use) for 3 - 10 days. This disadvantage in MMT withdrawal can potentially instigate a relapse.

Also, there has been one reported case of death from methadone withdrawal (>175 mg daily intake). The victim died from complications during episodes of seizuring. But due to her unfortunate circumstances it was not known whether she was previously epileptic (she was incarcerated and had no known family or doctors to contact for medical information); thus it can not be definitively concluded if her death was directly due to methadone withdrawal or epilepsy complications.

So generally speaking, methadone is more effective as a long term DRT maintenance medication due to its full mu-opioid agonist pharmacology. It can cause euphoria and has relatively high abuse potential, but when used properly these effects can be minimized. But methadone can still contribute to complications when tapering b/c of its similarity in action to typical narcotic analgesics. Therefore, methadone maintenance is more suited towards substituting, regulating, and minimizing illicit opioid addiction rather than promoting eventual abstinence. Experimental, case-study evidence for this can be found at http://opioids.com/methadone/tapering.html.


_Levoacetylmethadol (LAAM)_
--------------------------------------
LAAM is also a diphenylheptane-derivative, like methadone and propoxyphene. Its risks and benefits are nearly identical to that of methadone's but with one major difference. LAAM's duration of action is roughly double that of its counterpart and only requires dosing 3 - 4 times a week. Generally though, it is less favored to methadone (i tend to agree) b/c of its tendency to take longer to relieve withdrawal.

Recently, LAAM's metabolites have shown signs of cardiotoxicity at normal maintenance doses, therefore it has since been discontinued for medical use in the U.S. but is still available in MMT clinics. There are also suspicions of hepatoxicity being caused by LAAMMT as well. Its dextro isomer has shown less toxicity but has significantly less duration of action and more abuse-potential; methadone is more appropriate if LAAM isn't well tolerated.


_Buprenorphine_
--------------------------------------
Buprenorphine belongs to a small group of opioids known as benzomorphane derivatives. Buprenorphine is a novel medication b/c it has both mu-opioid agonist and antagonist properties. It is highly competitve at receptor sites, making it similar to nalaxone and naltrexone. But unlike these drugs, it also has an inherit mu-opioid agonist effect. It produces typical narcotic analgesia at lower doses and can ward off withdrawal for up to 48 hours.

Buprenorphine's competitive affinity for opioid receptors means that it has an advantage in the fact that full-opioid agonists will have no neurological action when taken during maintenance therapy. However, at amounts less than 2 mg this effect is less pronounced and wears off 12 - 24 hours after last dose.

Because buprenorphine is not a full mu-opioid agonist, it has a ceiling limit on its effects. Over 8 - 16 mg, the analgesic and euphoric properties do not increase; only duration in action is extended. Also, buprenorphine's unique pharmacological profile means that once BMT is mantained for a few weeks euphoria, sedation, and the potential for abuse becomes of relatively less significance.

Buprenorphine also has action at the ORL1 nociceptin (a newly discovered opioid receptor-class) receptors as a partial agonist and antagonist. In low doses, this can result in novel anti-depressant like effect; but when sudden, higher doses are used during maintenance therapy, this can result in lethargy, sedation, and mild dysphoria. This has an added detering effect in patients seeking to abuse buprenorphine when in maintenance therapy.

Buprenorphine's anti-depressant effect is thought to make tapering on the drug significantly more tolerable than more selective opioid agonists. Also, due to its less euphoric properties, BMT is more effective at relapse prevention than at actual drug replacement therapy (DRT). This gives the patient considerably more experience at living a seemingly "sober" life than MMT or LAAMMT, making complete abstinence a more easily achievable goal during buprenorphine therapy. As a result, BMT is usually used for a maximum of 3 years.

However, b/c buprenorphine's neurological action is different from full-opioid agonists, it is less effective as an actual alternative replacement for opioids. For this reason, individuals who aren't quite ready to stop abusing opioids respond better to methadone maintenance than to BMT.

Also, buprenorphine's antagonist properties will cause precipitated withdrawal if taken by an opioid tolerant individual who has used within 24 - 48 hours (depending what opioid was last taken). Therefore, to start BMT the patient must wait till her or she is in withdrawal to start the maintenance therapy. 

From my experience: if an individual precipitates withdrawal by taking buprenorphine while on other narcotics, the symptoms can be expected to last for at least 12 hours and can not be reversed. Expect it to last at least 24 hours in severely addicted individuals. Taking other opioids or more buprenorphine will not alleviate the symptoms either. The best recommendation I can offer is to wait it out for 36 - 48 hours. Then take buprenorphine at normal doses as needed.


_Propoxyphene_
--------------------------------------
Being a diphenylheptane-opioid like methadone and LAAM, propoxyphene does have some anti-depressant like properties. But its disadvantages are too numerous. It has a short duration of action and weak opioid agonist activity, needing very high dosing to be effective in opioid tolerant individuals. It also has higher antagonist activity at NMDA receptors than methadone; making it less tolerated, with more side effects.

Norpropoxyphene, a metabolite of propoxyphene, is highly cardiotoxic and suspected of being neurotoxic. It has an extremely long half-life and accumulates in the body, potentially causing delayed atrioventricular conduction, psychosis, cardiac arrhythmias, circulatory impairment, impaired psychomotor function, and in some cases cardiorespiratory arrest after long periods of use. The risk of some neurocardio effects occuring immediately after one-time-use increase considerably over 800 mg.

For these reasons, propoxyphene is only effective as a short term detoxification drug. It should only be used in individuals with low to moderate tolerance due to its dangerous cardiovascular side effects.


_Codeine_
--------------------------------------
Codeine is an non synthetic, weak mu-opioid agonist and can be used for tapering to avoid minor withdrawal. But b/c codeine must first be converted into its active metabolite, morphine, it has a ceiling effect of 400 mg--thus it is not suitable for severe withdrawal. Also, norcodeine, another metabolite of codeine, facilitates a severe histamine reaction--another unfavorable side effect.


_Tramadol_
--------------------------------------
Tramadol is a synthetic opioid which is classified indepdently of all other narcotic analgesics. Tramadol is similar to codeine in that it has weak analgesic qualities. It too has a ceiling effect, but its active metabolite isn't morphine and is denoted as M1. While tramadol isn't an effective medication to relieve severe opioid cravings, it does have unique mechanisms of action that make it useful in treating other severe withdrawal symptoms: its prevention of serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake can mediate depression and its agonist activity at alpha-2 adrenergic receptors (similar to clonidine) can also relieve insomnia, fever-symptoms, and hypertension. However, tramadol can cause nausea and vomiting in higher doses and its SNRI action can leave minor yet persisting stimulation and hypertensive symptoms when taken to alleviate withdrawal.


_Full Agonist Opioids: Semisynthetics (oxycodone, hydrocodone), Anilidopiperidinic derivatives (fentanyl) and Phenylpiperidinic derivatives (meperidine/pethidine)_ 
--------------------------------------
These drugs can be effective in the short term when used for tapering. However, they are ineffective when used for long term maintenance b/c of their euphoric properties, short duration of action, and high abuse potential. Other strong mu opioid agonists like methadone, LAAM, and buprenorphine are accepted as having medical value in maintenance therapy b/c of their anti-depressant effects, limited euphoric properties, ability to block other opioids, long duration of action, and their success of use in structured, maintenance programs. Other mu-opioid agonists do not share all of these qualities.  Full agonists are therefore more likely to be abused by a detoxing individual compared to other narcotic DRT medications.  They are ultimately less effective in acheiving eventual sobriety unless the patient is adhered to very strict conditions and regulations, or held in a controlled environment.

Compared to typical opioids, phenylpiperidine derivatives can have added disadvantages due to their more generalized neurological effect. For example, Meperidine has strong anticholinergic activity and has some effect on kappa-opioid receptors. This can cause aggravating side effects that include: confusion, dry mouth, ataxia, hallucinations, agitation, amnesia, anesthesia, catalepsy, dysphoria, catatonia, delerium, and even psychosis. Meperdine can also precipitates stimulant effects by inhibitioning the dopamine and norepinephrine transporter cells (DAT and NAT, respectively). 




*NON-OPIOIDERGIC THERAPIES*


_Ibogaine/18-methoxycoronaridine_
--------------------------------------
Ibogaine is pharamcologically unique in its relevance to treating opioid dependance. The main neurological action that is responsible for addiction surpression is noncompetitive antagonist activity at α3β4 nicotinic receptors. B/c NMDA and α3β4 nicotinic channels are located within lumen binding range on the same ligands--α3β4 nicotinic antagonism usually facilitates NMDA antagonist activity as well. In plain english: this neurological action is responsible for ibogaine's dissociative effects.  This neurological action is also responsible for curbing compulsive behavior; to a lesser extent, drugs like buproprion (zyban) also have this neurological action. Ibogaine also has strong hallucinogenic and psychedelic effect, this is mediated by agonist activity at the 5HT2A receptors.

12-hydroxyibogamine, an active metabolite of ibogaine, is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and a -kappa, -mu opioid agonist. These actions are responsible for ibogaine's long duration and surpression of opioid withdrawal symptoms, respectively.

But most importantly... unlike methadone or buprenorphine, ibogaine is unique in that it actually creates a desire to become abstinent. While its nicotinergic and opioidergic effects seem to diminish mental and physical craving; its combined action on NMDA channels and 5HT2A receptors cause a deeply reflective, hallucinogenic experience in which preconcieved, positive perceptions pertaining to an individual's addiction are shattered. 

Drug addiction forces an individual to rationalize one's harmful actions--its the brain's way of ignoring atypical and immoral behavior inorder to maintain use (Drug consumption to an opioid addicted brain becomes a survival skill, the brain will instinctively try to sustain it any cost). Ibogaine rips down these false, built up notions and allows the addict to see things for what they really are.  This is a milestone in addiction treatment, since it was thought to be impossible to induce this in an addicted individual, i.e.- "they can only quit when they really want to."  Well, now it seems most dependent users can also _really_ quit if they take ibogaine once every few months.

Ibogaine also has some action on sigma2 receptors (a neuron-system that is involved in stimulant toxicity, anti-cholinergic delerium, and dissociative-drug induced hallucinations); but the neurological, behavorial cause and effect profile of such pharmacological actions is still poorly understood.

A synthetic derivative of iboagine is 18-methoxycoronaridine. Its neurological action is as a selective α3β4 antagonist, which is ibogaine's main mechanism for physically surpressing the compulsiveness of addiciton. But b/c it is selective, it is barely hallucinogenic and thus less intense than ibogaine. This ultimately is a major flaw in 18-methoxycoronaridine b/c it will theoritically be no more effective at mediating addiction than other selective α3β4 antagonists; it is no better than drugs like buproprion.


_Naltrexone Maintenance_
--------------------------------------
Naltrexone is an opioid antagonist, typically used in maintenance of sobriety in opioid dependent individuals who've already undergone detoxification. Naloxone and nalmefene are also opioid antagonists that are used to treat acute overdose and alcoholism, respectively.  Naloxone has application in treating opioid overdose due to its higher potency and relatively low duration of effects (1 - 2 hrs).  Nalmefene is used in alcoholism more extensively due to its low potency and high plasma half life. 

Opioid antagonists have very high affinity for mu- and kappa- opioid receptors and therefore will displace any other non-competitive opioidergic drug present at the actual receptor site.  This is, in essence, the pharmacodynamics of neurological antagnostic activity.  Since naltrexone, naloxone, and nalmefene have no inherit mu- opioid agonist properties themselves; they will block the neurological aciton of any narcotic and cause habitual opioid users to go into precipitated withdrawal.

Naltrexone is usually prescribed following rapid detox treatment as a post procedural medication.  However, the effectiveness of opioid antagonist maintenance is low due to non compliance in patients.  Therefore, another procedure in which a naltrexone "pellet" is subcutaneously inserted into the patient, is sometimes utilized.  The pellet has its advantages to medication b/c daily compliance in the patient is not an issue and the effects can last anywhere from 4 - 24 months.

Opioid antagonists in general are considered to be less advantageous compared to other treatment options.  These drugs have absolutely no inherit opioid agonist properties, and thus do not help in treating cravings in opioid dependent individuals.  Therefore, other DRT medications as a whole are considered more useful.


_Rapid Detoxication_
--------------------------------------
Rapid detox refers to a medical procedure used to speed up the detoxication process.  Generally, the procedure can last anywhere from 30 minutes to 4 hours, depending on an individual's subjective withdrawal symptoms.

Typical medications used include a mitazolam and ketamine mixture for anesthesia, followed by high quantities of naloxone, and then nalmefene.  Medicines like tracrium (a mixture of ten atracurium stereoisomers) are also sometimes used as peripherial movement inhibitors (peripherial muscle relaxants).

The effectiveness of rapid detox seems to be debated within the addiction-treatment community.  For patients with high tolerance who have been using for multiple years or more, withdrawal duration can last a relatively extensive amount of time.  In these cases, rapid detox seems to be less effective at condensing symptoms into a 4 hour period.




*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




LISTING OF PHARMACEUTICAL AND HERBAL TREATMENTS (IN ORDER FROM MOST EFFECTIVE TO LEAST EFFECTIVE)


Opioid-Based and/or Dysphoria Treating Medicines (Most of these can cause dependence):*
ibogaine
methdone
buprenorphine
levoacetylmethadol (LAAM)
buspirone
oxycodone/hydrocodone
tramadol
codeine
propoxyphene
benzodiazepines
carisprodal
dextromethorphan
-------herbs-------
kratom


*Non-Opioid Medications (Categorized according to symptomatic relief provided; Not dependence-prone):*

_*Insomnia/Anxiety/Hypertension*_
baclofen
chlorzoxazone
cyclobenzaprine/orphenadrine
methocarbamol
zolpidem
tizanidine 
amitriptyline
gabapentin
hydroxyzine
acomprosate
trazadone
dextromethorphan
clonidine
melatonin & other steroidal sleep remedies (insomnia only)
diphenhydrinate/dimenhydramine
--------herbs--------
kava kava (piper methysticum)
valerian (valeriana officinalis)
passionflower (passiflora incarnata)
reishi (ganoderma lucidum)
chamomile (matricaria recutita)
skullcap (scutellaria lateriflora)
hops (humulus lupulus)
damiana (turnera diffusa)

_*Diarrha/Abdominal Cramps*_
loperamide
amitriptyline
hydroxyzine
anticholinergics (atropine, dimenhydrinate)
------herbs------
bilberry (vaccinium myrtillus)
peppermint (mentha x piperita)

_*Rhinorrhea (ncreased salivation)/ Lacrimation (increased tear production)*_
anticholinergics
hydroxyzine
loperamide
amitriptyline
dextromethorphan
-------herbs------
belladonna alkaloids

_*Pyretic Sensations (chills, fever)*_
clonidine
propranolol
acetaminophen
NSAIDs
acetylsalicylic acid 

_*Nausea*_
diphenhydramine/dimenhydrinate
meclizine
bismuth subsalicylate
hydroxyzine
calcium carbonate
------herbs------
chamomile (matricaria recutita)
ginger (zingiber officinale)
peppermint (mentha x piperita)

_*Aches, Pains*_
ropinirol
baclofen
NSAIDs (ibuprofen, naproxen)
acetaminophen
acetylsalicylic acid
chlorzoxazone
cyclobenzaprine/orphenadrine
methocarbamol
gabapentin
trazadone
------herbs------
reishi (ganoderma lucidum)
willow (salix spp.)


*Non-Barbituate & Non-Benzodiazepine M03B Class Muscle Relaxants (May help with anxiety, insomnia, and pain; Some may be habit forming)*
chlormezanone 
tolperisone
febarbamate 
phenyramidol 
mephenesin 
phenprobamate 
styramate 
thiocolchicoside 
pridinol


----------



## AlphaOdure

If anyone has any comments or anything to add... please do so.


----------



## sushii

Thanks! This looks like a great resource. I'll add it to our list of helpful links.


----------



## AlphaOdure

^  ^  ^
Huh?  I'm not following you??


----------



## AlphaOdure

^  ^  ^
Huh?  I'm not following you?

Quit what?  Trying to help people w/ withdrawal?  Or were you referring to my personal drug use?  B/c if you were, then you should also have observed from my posts that i don't use any drugs; unless you count my Rx to suboxone.


----------



## sushii

Zophen, you're confusing enough without ketamine. I have no idea what any of your posts in this thread mean. And I'm pretty sure the first one was pre-K, too. :D


----------



## AlphaOdure

zophen said:
			
		

> The reason being if you are taking methadone Ketamine does not work!....IME!!



Since both methadone and ketamine are _non_ competitive antagonists at NMDA receptors (obviously ketamine having more activity there)--hypothetically, they wont literally _block_ one another, like naloxone would heroin.  However... although I am not as familar with the pharmacodynamics of glutamte and NMDA receptors systems, i am pretty sure second-dosing metabolism is very ineffective.

Meaning.... just how redosing K a few minutes after you've just taken it wont work; so too would be the case when taking K 12 - 24 hours after dosing methadone or LAAM.  Hypothetically, propoxyphene would block it as well.

Or so it logically seems.



			
				zophen said:
			
		

> sincere apologies for my immature outburst!!!! {Ketamine induced}



Makes sense.  No need for an apology... if it makes you feel any better.. i really wasn't offended b/c i couldn't understand what the hell kind of point you were trying to make.  But now i see it was just incoherent ketamine babble. haha


----------



## B9

> hypothetically, they wont literally block one another,



Quite possibly true!!!


Howeva!!  for me actually massively untrue!!


I took about 250mgs [intranasally] and watched telly [fucking dinnertime news  ]


But after *quitting*  some 4 months later KETAMINE actually worked!!


Hypothesise that!


----------



## AlphaOdure

^  ^  ^
Damn dude you must be fucked up, ha!  I explained in my post... what i meant by that was, neurologically they wouldn't block one another like competitive antagonists would, like naloxone and heroin.  But the blocking mechanism you experienced was probably due to rapid tolerance build up... i.e.- how you can't get any strong effect out of redosing dissociatives in rapid sequence; the same could be true of taking dissociatives after dosing any sort of diphenylheptane opioid.

what i posted...



> However... although I am not as familar with the pharmacodynamics of glutamte and NMDA receptors systems, i am pretty sure second-dosing metabolism is very ineffective.
> 
> Meaning.... just how redosing K a few minutes after you've just taken it wont work; so too would be the case when taking K 12 - 24 hours after dosing methadone or LAAM. Hypothetically, propoxyphene would block it as well.


----------



## AlphaOdure

BTW, that sucks.  what a waste of ketamine.

Did it take 4 months of complete abstinence from methadone to get any effect?  If so, that could imply mild glutamate neurotoxicty from  diphenylheptane opioids.


----------



## B9

> Did it take 4 months of complete abstinence from methadone to get any effect? If so, that could imply mild glutamate neurotoxicty from diphenylheptane opioids.




Go to *ADVANCED DRUG DISCUSSION!!!*

Believe me you'll love it there!


----------



## AlphaOdure

mwhahahahaha; yeaa thats a good topic to take up over there.

but i like to post in TDS b/c of the recovery orientated atmosphere here.  I know, my pharmacological mumbo jumbo can get sort of confusing and annoying at times though.

In plain english.. what i meant by that question was... did it take you 4 months after stopping methadone to get any effect from ketamine?  If it did, that means methadone may do some lasting damage to glutamate receptors.


----------



## mepat1111

Don't worry man, I'm enjoying the pharmcology 'mumbo jumbo'  I'm quite interested in pharmacology but unfortunately fucked up my year 12 with too many drugs and didn't get the marks I need to get into the pharmacology course.

Very interesting read, from my own personal experience, your points on buprenorphine are completely valid. I get almost no high, or really any effects at all, it simply keeps me from withdrawing - therefore allowing me to lead a normal life.

Thanks for going to all the time and effort to do this, will make a very useful resource.


----------



## B9

> id it take you 4 months after stopping methadone to get any effect from ketamine?




Correct!!!




> but i like to post in TDS




I like you to post in TDS as well, you bring plenty! 

Sorry about my pissed and drugged up crap ! 

I frequently think I am amusing when in these states.8) 

Only to realise I am most certainly not once soberness returns.


----------



## savagebuddha

I read someone that you should not take L-tyrosine with any serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as paxil, prozac and other psychiatric mood elevators.  Anybody know the reason for this?

I'd also like to thank the OP for all this advice.  I'm currently on day 2 of heroin detox using this method and i find the pains to be minimal, i can actually get up and excercise and do stuff after a good night's of sleep with benzos


----------



## Will01996

This is a good piece of writing.


----------



## cashtothemoney

Why thank you!


----------



## cashtothemoney

You do have a point there. A hot bath (or hot tub, if you have access) is great for RLS, supplemented with extra potassium.


----------



## ~*geNeRaTiOn E*~

will any NSAID work?  i have some samples of 200mg celebrex and took some last night but it didn't seem to help until a few hrs later.  i'm slightly worried about taking pain reliever since i'm sure my liver has been through enough already but i cannot bear with the w/d pains.  

i'm thinking about doing a taper but i'm worried that i won't be able to stop.  the w/ds are just too much to handle.


----------



## sixpartseven

PIC said:
			
		

> "i have plenty of credibility here both on this board and from real life experience and education"
> 
> Yeah, whatever man, do you have scientific literature to back it up? I just want to see where it says that one can withdrawal from Immodium. Forget your credibility, that is quite subjective.



Apparently you werent around when Bluelight exploded with all the Loperamide discussions.

Now, there is really no need for "scientific literature" to know it is _possible_ to withdrawal from immodium. All you need is this thing called "logic" (the 2+2=4 kind of logic. Youll see what I mean) and the fact that loperamide is an opioid, or at the very least similar enough to have the effects of an opioid. Now, using that and logic, you can start with Loperamide being an opioid, then take into consideration that opioids, when used on a regular basis and in high enough doses (or even low doses, but we need to think high doses for the next part. And also, usually the stronger the substance, the worse the withdrawals will be e.g. Codeine withdrawals versus Fentanyl withdrawals, and structurally, loperamide is similar to, if not stronger than, fentanyl) for an extended period of time can cause dependence. Now, when dependant on an opioid, if you do not ingest your drug of choice, you will withdrawal. 

Therefore, if you take loperamide (2) in high enough doses (+2) over a period of time, you should probably taper or you will withdrawal (=4).

Welcome to 2nd grade.


----------



## cashtothemoney

There actually is scientific literature to back up the fact that loperamide can cause physical dependency. When loperamide was first introduced in the United States, it was a scheduled substance; schedule V to be specific. The reason it was introduced as a scheduled substance was because during clinical trials a physical withdrawal syndrome was observed. The trials involved long-term, high dose loperamide. After it was found that loperamide did not act on any opioid receptors in the brain (for the most part), it was unscheduled. This all happened very quickly, so many people don't even know that it was once a controlled substance. I'll see if I can dig up the literature, but it's most definately buried, as it is probably a few decades old.

SOURCE: http://www.thatspoppycock.com/opiates/loperamide.htm


----------



## CTdopeLove

Two things that can help quite a lot in dealing with withdrawal, although they both have their setbacks (doesn't everything?)

1.  Alcohol - At least for me, getting drunk doesn't exactly eliminate the withdrawal, but it makes it more bearable by allowing me to ignore it for the time being, and sometimes helps to warm the "deep freeze" feeling inside you.  It also can help a lot with getting a few hours of sleep, but be warned, it has it's downsides.  Besides the fact that it's an addictive substance, which means you could trade one addiction for another, when drinking during withdrawal you may feel even shittier the next morning.  What I do is get drunk, but not overly drunk, and make sure to drink plenty of water before bed (I always do this when I drink, AT LEAST twice as much water as alcohol I drank) so you don't wake up with a hangover.  It's a little tough getting the alcohol to go/stay down when your stomach is upset, but after 15 minutes or so it should be settled (I suggest hard alcohol, as I can't imagine getting drunk off beer, with all that carbonation, would be very friendly on your stomach, but then again I never drink beer).

2.  Masturbation - For one it's nice to finally be able to get off, and it gives ya a bit of a "rush" so to speak (maybe not an opioid rush, but it does feel good).  Some people say it makes them feel good for a bit, but makes them feel even worse afterwards, but for me it helps a lot.  When going through withdrawal, I can easily get off 5+ times in one day.

~CTdopeLove


----------



## enoughorangejuice?

i've heard that taking benadryl can help with insomnia and opioid w/d's and i've heard it can make it worse.  whats the truth on this ?


----------



## AlphaOdure

Yeaa!  I see this was added to the "useful links" section.

I still think the admin's should add this to the FAQ section though...  

yea yea yea, i think the admin's don't like me anyways.  ehhh, how i miss midget porn central...


----------



## B9

It seems a decent resource ( he said grudgingly   ) I suppose a committee could be formed to discuss the possibility of moving it to your preferred destination. On a Monday tho


----------



## AlphaOdure

hahaha..

i PM'd the admin's a while ago.. but to no avail.

Long time no see, you changed your name i see?  Didn't know we could do that, is that new?  Or is that just a special, mod feature?  You little pampered, privledged yuppies!


----------



## B9

Like a lap dog fed on fillet steak ~ it really isn't good enough is it ?


----------



## AlphaOdure

And yea, the forum i moderated... the old Health Q & A... the admin's just completely deleted it!  Sheesh, you think they could've just demoted me instead of getting rid of my whole forum!!  I guess its natural to fear those who threaten one's own intelligence... haaa


----------



## B9

Yes I am sure you are correct.


----------



## AlphaOdure

B9 said:
			
		

> Like a lap dog fed on fillet steak ~ it really isn't good enough is it ?



i'm never satisfied.

and i prefer flank cut steak myself.


----------



## sushii

AlphaOdure said:
			
		

> And yea, the forum i moderated... the old Health Q & A... the admin's just completely deleted it!  Sheesh, you think they could've just demoted me instead of getting rid of my whole forum!!  I guess its natural to fear those who threaten one's own intelligence... haaa



It was merged with healthy living, wasn't it?

I think your guide is great. I do worry that nobody looks at our 'useful links' section though, and there's too much stuff in there to sticky them all seperately....


----------



## Ungoliath

Fentanyl is perscribed around here to oc and dilaudid addicts to get off.

The strong sustained release (me 150mcg/h) removes all cravings for 3 days solid per patch, its a miracle drug.


----------



## AlphaOdure

> It was merged with healthy living, wasn't it?



I don't know, it may have been.  I wasn't really around when it happened.   I was just fucking around anyways.


----------



## AlphaOdure

Ungoliath said:
			
		

> Fentanyl is perscribed around here to oc and dilaudid addicts to get off.
> 
> The strong sustained release (me 150mcg/h) removes all cravings for 3 days solid per patch, its a miracle drug.



Wow thats a novel method to help with opioid withdrawal.  Usually full agonist opioids, fentanyl especially, aren't really useful for detox.  Unless, like i stated in my FAQ, they're used in a strictly regulated fashion (i.e.- time release, administered by a doctor, etc).  Where are you from?

Still, i'd be interested to hear what the conditions of fentanyl detox treatment are?  There are all sorts of factors that could hinder a detoxing individual, for instance- the patients destroying the time release mechanism or applying heat to transdermal systems to increase absorption (if the treatment uses transdermal patches), excessive withdrawal after treatment is discontinued, inadequate blocking of other opioid agonists, failure to decrease mental cravings, etc etc.  

Is this for inpatient use only?  Is it for detox or just to alleviate cravings for a period of time?  What sort of tapering process is used?  And what form of fentanyl is used, transdermal?  Sublingual powder or liquid?  IM injection??


----------



## easyes

personally.....i found rehab was the best method, heh......particularly one that doesn't prescribe its patients with methadone. They gave me muscle relaxers, sleeping pills, and some other shit, and besides having a wicked stomach ache i was alright....i had weined myself off a little bit before i went into the rehab anyway. i couldn't imagine quitting any opiate without a rehab....it would mean willpower, which is not something most opiate addicts have.


----------



## phactor

Excellent thread. Thanks for your hard work.


----------



## malfunkshun

PIC said:
			
		

> "i have plenty of credibility here both on this board and from real life experience and education"
> 
> Yeah, whatever man, do you have scientific literature to back it up? I just want to see where it says that one can withdrawal from Immodium. Forget your credibility, that is quite subjective.



i'll tell you for a fact mister, that you CAN withdraw from loperamide because i HAVE.  ok?


----------



## garuda

malfunkshun said:
			
		

> i'll tell you for a fact mister, that you CAN withdraw from loperamide because i HAVE.  ok?



I saw a medical journal article once about a middle aged woman that had been taking ridiculous amounts of loperamide and yes was having trouble quitting because of gastrointestinal distress. So it would seem at least you could suffer loose bowels from an extended period of taking lope.


----------



## garuda

easyes said:
			
		

> it would mean willpower, which is not something most opiate addicts have.



Willpower is learned and cultivated, its not a genetic trait.
And willpower of course doesn't mean much to someone who is already in the depths of a serious opiate addiction, but it can help them taper down without "cheating".


----------



## The Monkey Mantra

Just to add my 2 cents on the Loperamide kick:

I recently got out of the hospital. I was on about 24 mg of hydromorphone a day. I brought myself down to like 25 mg oxycodone a day. I headed off on a flight like two days after I got out of the hospital and accidentally put my percocet into the checked luggage. Uh-oh! Got through security and PANICKED! I headed over to the nearest news stand and picked up 5 packs of Loperamide. I ended up consuming about 16 mg just as the skin-is-burning heart-is-racing hair-standing-on-end began. About two hours later I noticed this sensation was gone. I was still in *pain* from the stomach problems I was hospitalized for, and I honestly think the immodium made them worse, not better, but the burning-prickling anxiety was gone. It was just plain ol' "hurts like fuck".

My point is, it *does* work. There's gotta be some peripheral contribution to withdrawal symptoms, and there's always feedback between the peripheral and the CNS. Take, for example, epinephrine. It's not crossing the BBB, but the peripheral effects "inspire" a central response.

I've taken loperamide experimentally in massive doses (88 mg) when I was *not* opioid dependent, and found its effects to be the following:

*Sedation and tiredness for the next few days
*Throat and voice "scratchiness" like you'd get from opioids
*All the standard peripheral symptoms

It was kinda like all the side-effects with none of the high. I did feel remarkably calm, but definitely not euphoric. I felt shitty, to tell the truth.

Also, my bowel movements returned to normal about three days later. It didn't take weeks on end like I'd feared.

Conclusion? Yeah, it helps with withdrawal. I'd say start with 24 mg and head up toward 48. Give it a couple hours to kick in. It'll take the edge off, I promise.


----------



## ChemicalSmiles

48 mgs is wayyyy to much. You wont shit for days.


----------



## ANewKindOfArmy

^Yeah defintly, im at a 40mg oxycodone tolrorance, i took 15mgs of loperamide in desperation. Took away the shits quick, but an hour later still had strong WD. Im now about 3 hours into my experiment and i know this  sounds ridiuclas but i feel fine. I don't know if i'll be able to sleep but im blown away that i feel somewhat ok ( as anyone knows whos WD'd its terrible ). No hot cold flashes, no sneezing, no watery runny eyes. Let just hope this stays this way. If so this wont be half as hard as it has been before.

Anyone in pure despiration and if you have no other opitions if your tolorance is around the same as mine, this may help you out.

be safe,

- B


----------



## C00P

I would also add the recommended dosage of 5-htp (also available at GNC) to that list. 5-htp is a precursor to serotonin which as everyone knows is the "happy chemical." It improves mood, helps you to sleep better, and helps with anxiety


----------



## phactor

ANewKindOfArmy said:
			
		

> ^Yeah defintly, im at a 40mg oxycodone tolrorance, i took 15mgs of loperamide in desperation. Took away the shits quick, but an hour later still had strong WD. Im now about 3 hours into my experiment and i know this  sounds ridiuclas but i feel fine.



It takes about 3 hours for Loperamide to be fully absorbed. You should be set for awhile.


----------



## AlphaOdure

First of all good work!  I don't want to take away from the OP's contribution, but i have a similar, more in depth FAQ floating around (its linked to in the sticky thread- _useful links_).  Here's the URL:

*A guide to opioid addiction treatments and other medications used for withdrawal*
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=307488

Its my personal opinion that moderate to severe opioid addiction needs some form of professional attention in order to be effectively treated.  Therefore, in my guide, i go into depth on the various methods used for both detoxing and replacement therapy (methadone, bupe, ibogaine, LAAM, ultram, opioid agonists, rapid detox using naltrexone, etc)- For each drug i explain their pharmacology, their advantages and disadvantages, side effects, and effectiveness relative to other popular treatments.

In the second section I list a SHIT load of OTC meds, Rx's, and herbs that can help alleviate withdrawal symptoms, and everything is organized according to specific symptom.  Although, i merely provide a list; i don't expand on the effectiveness or action of any drug that only provides symptomatic relief from withdrawal.  I do, however, list the medications in order of most effective to least effective (from my own subjective view point of course!).


----------



## B9

Yes a good source of information also. By far th ebiggest factor IMO is determination, though loperamide to combat the shits is always nice.  


Merging them ...editing them...  hmmm can't wait, or can I ?


----------



## AlphaOdure

C00P said:
			
		

> I would also add the recommended dosage of 5-htp (also available at GNC) to that list. 5-htp is a precursor to serotonin which as everyone knows is the "happy chemical." It improves mood, helps you to sleep better, and helps with anxiety



Additional serotonin in the synapse can actually aggravate certain withdrawal symptoms; during w/d usually all of the neurotransmitters are on rapid fire, so you definitely don't want to increase their activity (thats why CNS depressants like carisoprodol, diazepam, lorazepam, or even alcohol are more effective; they immediately inhibit neural transmission via GABA-A agonism). 

5-htp _may_ help w/ PAWS after the initial withdrawal has passed; but i doubt ANY drug that solely increases serotonin will help w/ acute withdrawal.



			
				enoughorangejuice? said:
			
		

> i've heard that taking benadryl can help with insomnia and opioid w/d's and i've heard it can make it worse. whats the truth on this ?



As previously stated, diphenhydramine and dimenhydrinate can both increase RLS symptoms (and aches/pains); in addition to increasing hypertension, blood pressure, and anxiety.  I've personally experienced this effect during w/d and did not use it thereafter.  Generally speaking, anticholingerics should only be used as a last resort during opioid withdrawal.

MT1 and MT2 agonists (drugs that act on melatonin receptors) are a much better option for treating symptomatic insomnia; they are usually very selective and don't show cross activity on other receptors (for example, they show virtually no activity on HTP, DA, MU, KAPPA, DELTA, and norpinephrine receptors).  So generally, they don't produce additional, adverse side effects. Ramelteon, agomelatine, and melatonin are all examples of MT agonists; but only the latter of which are available OTC.


----------



## AlphaOdure

Zophen said:
			
		

> Merging them ...editing them... hmmm can't wait, or can I



_Editing_ them???  Don't you *dare* edit the material in my original OP!! Its a masterpiece


----------



## B9

Ahem I think I just fucked it up....my apologies, will address subject in the morning..


----------



## babygetoboy

Quick question, since Immodium is an opiate, can you use it with Suboxone while withdrawing?  Or can you not use it since it is an opiate and could cause problems with the Suboxone.


----------



## B9

It doesn't cross the blood/brain barrier in significant quantities so far as I am aware to be relevant, unless you consume vast amounts. 


You ought to be able to use it yes.

Consult your medical practitioner first though.


----------



## Angrydrunk

I'm glad this got bumped. It really did shed a positive light for me.


----------



## ATF

*More on Loperamide*



			
				TheTripDoctor said:
			
		

> and yes loperamide likely DOES get into the brain in only slightly higher than normal doses if you use an enzyme inhibitor like cimetidine



Sorry if this is already covered extensively somewhere else, but I was wondering about any successes in increasing the CNS activity of Loperamide with Cimetidine or even Ranitidine? Is it significant enough to pursue? Anyone have any luck?


----------



## squidhead

The best thing for withdrawals is......................


----------



## ATF

I need that whether I'm kicking or not. Otherwise I gets hellsa   
I went years without it, but my emotions drag me through hell and back every day. 
Now opiates are getting that way, but end up causing so much other damage. 
I dont know how to get out of this.


----------



## ATF

ATF said:
			
		

> Sorry if this is already covered extensively somewhere else, but I was wondering about any successes in increasing the CNS activity of Loperamide with Cimetidine or even Ranitidine? Is it significant enough to pursue? Anyone have any luck?


bump


----------



## panic in paradise

^ check out advanced drug discussion.

do a search in ADD, and if nothing pops up, then maybe start a thread there.

thats the only answer i could come up with.


----------



## susynb

i've gone through short but doable hells over the years from various opiates but my pain doc has me on fentanyl patch (50) for 5 months now and i here it the hellish of all detoxes.  i know i'm going to have to deal with this eventually but does anyone have anything that can help me through that's been there?


----------



## smacks24

What does the Immodium and Pepto do other than for stomach issues?

And are there any foods that contain opiates or similar properties?  Is that too optimistic?


----------



## lindamcg

*Thanx*

Thanx soo much for the advice I wish I had found this site before now I could have saved my self a lot of heartache. I have been through withdrawls before but could not handle them so I stayed addicted, but in Febuary I got really out of control and confessed all to my doctor. I will tell you a bit about myself,I am a 53yr old woman from Glasgow Scotland and was prescribed dihydrocodeine 30mg for a bowel complaint that was 4 years ago unknow to me I developed a tollerance and started taking more of them to get the same effect, little did I know the hell I was plunging myself into. This continude for years and I was never questioned why I needed more scripts sooner than normal. I have am being treated for depression I dont know what came first the addiction or the blues, any way to ccut a very long story short I confessed all and I have been detoxing since feb I was taking up to 20 of these pills a day and was abruptly cut to 8 aday, so I went through withdrawls then, now they want to cut me again to 7 a day and I am so scared the doctors here are not very helpful I have found more information here than from the profesionals, can anyone tell me will I get the same withdrawls cutting them down slow like that or would I be better just stopping. Please help me


----------



## qwe

could i suggest adding to the O.P.

muscle relaxers like Soma are great for restlessness, as are benzos

BP/heart rate are very important.  beta blockers like clonidine, or alpha blockers like propranolol, these work great for HR/BP.  so do benzos and alcohol

peeing and pooping#3 will happen a lot during withdrawal.  immodium may help with the bladder.  drinking gatorade or something with electrolytes will be very good for the body, as well as multivitamin

eating is real hard, but foods that are real easy to eat, eating a tiny bit every 20 minutes (eg i was eating a little cracker sandwich from Lunchables once per twenty minutes to get food in me)

---

motivation, that is something that i don't think anything can really touch.  using a stimulant during withdrawal for motivation would really fuck with the body, and maybe lengthen the time it will take for the dopamine system to restabilize anyway


----------



## H Bomber

I find melatonin to be the best otc sleep aid in these situations. Safe, effective, and not particularly habit forming. Best of all, no or minimal hangover, lets see antihistamines or benzodiazapines do that.


----------



## qwe

^ melatonin is very subtle, but it seems to work wonders for some people

i used it at 6mg every night for almost a year, stopped, and had no rebound insomnia.  same with pot, used it quite a bit every day for a year, stopped, no withdrawal symptoms or rebound effects.  pretty safe drugs IMO


----------



## nabollocks

Ok, so here is my final Tramadol withdrawal diary:

I was asked to cease Tramadol pain management to reassess pain.

I had been using 300mg SR/day for 3 years. I did not miss a dose.

Here was my doctors instructions to stop using Slow Release Tramadol:

Week 0 150mg SR morning, 150mg SR evening;
Week 1 150mg SR morning, 100mg SR evening;
Week 2 100mg SR morning, 100mg SR evening;
Week 3 100mg SR morning, 50mg SR evening;
Week 4 50mg SR morning, 50mg SR evening;
Week 5 50mg SR morning, 0mg evening;
Week 6 0mg morning, 0mg evening.

Well, I agreed to this schedule and said that I would come back for a review visit every 2 weeks. 

After starting my discontinuation schedule this is how it panned out:

Day 0 150mg SR morning, 150mg SR evening;
Day 1 150mg SR morning, 100mg SR evening;
Day 2 100mg SR morning, 100mg SR evening;
Day 3 100mg SR morning, 50mg SR evening;
Day 4 50mg SR morning, 50mg SR evening;
Day 5 50mg SR morning, 0mg evening;
Day 6 0mg morning, 0mg evening.

So, I roughly turned 1 month of pain into 1 week of pain.

And as it turns out, quitting was not that hard. 

The worst side effect from Tramadol discontinuation was without doubt the "brain zaps". These continued till day 15. (Approx 2 weeks)

I have not had any problems with depression, but my pain has returned... the reason I started Tramadol in the first place.

The verdict:
For the pain relief provided this drug has very few withdrawal effects.

If you have ever discontinued an SSRI or an SNRI the discontinuation syndrome is almost identical. When you know what it is it does not bother you... well, not me at least.

I was able to go to work as normal, and this surprised me as I am a Project Manager. This indicates to me at least that Tramadol can safely be stopped and dealt with whilst still continuing with every day life.

The drugs that the doctor scripted for discontinuation symptoms were:
Alprazolam 0.5mg
Clonidine 150ug
Paracetamol (APAP) 500mg

If you would like my actual diary of symptoms feel free to PM me and I will email you a copy.

I just hope that this gives others some idea of how easy it is to quit Tramadol if you really want to.

Not every Tramadol withdrawal experience is negative.

Nab


----------



## wingnutlives

MELATONIN is also great for insomnia and it's easier to obtain than seroquel (my actual favorite, but you have to get it through a doctor), you can find melatonin at any pharmacy or health food store. 

Other OTC treatments...

Depression: St. John's Wort or L-tryptophan/5htp (restores serotonin) and DLPA (restores endorphins)
Anxiety: GABA (an amino acid that works similar to benzos, without the addictive factor)... combine this with valerian root or kava (mentioned before)

Also try INTENSIVE exercise in short duration, every day, after the first couple weeks. This will raise endorphins and serotonin and help depression/anxiety, as well as the restless legs syndrome or soreness. 

Good luck!


----------



## Danknesss

This guide is great but I can add one more thing that helps with anxiety and depression that is not on the list.  It is called mulungu.  It is the bark from a tree that grow in South America.  You can buy it in powdered form or in the natural form of shredded bark.  The shredded bark is best.  You take about 20g and bring water to a boil and then bring the heat down and let it steep for a half an hour.  Strain, add lemon juice and honey and enjoy.  You will feel like you are being wrapped in a warm blanket and you will just drift off to dream land.  This shit is the bomb.  I use it a couple times a week regularly for sleep.  Better than ambien IMO.


----------



## phactor

CTdopeLove said:


> 1.  Alcohol - At least for me, getting drunk doesn't exactly eliminate the withdrawal, but it makes it more bearable by allowing me to ignore it for the time being, and sometimes helps to warm the "deep freeze" feeling inside you.  It also can help a lot with getting a few hours of sleep, but be warned, it has it's downsides.  Besides the fact that it's an addictive substance, which means you could trade one addiction for another, when drinking during withdrawal you may feel even shittier the next morning.  What I do is get drunk, but not overly drunk, and make sure to drink plenty of water before bed (I always do this when I drink, AT LEAST twice as much water as alcohol I drank) so you don't wake up with a hangover.  It's a little tough getting the alcohol to go/stay down when your stomach is upset, but after 15 minutes or so it should be settled (I suggest hard alcohol, as I can't imagine getting drunk off beer, with all that carbonation, would be very friendly on your stomach, but then again I never drink beer).



I only drink beer but I do like to have a few during withdrawal. I used to get pretty drunk on like day 3 or 4.

Also I really think taking l-tyrosine in the morning and l-trytophan at night really helps


----------



## johnny22n

started 5 yrs ago with a bad vicodin habit went on suboxone almost a yr ago started that at 16mgs and tapered down to 4mgs. Im going now on day 7 with zero suboxone and opiates. Just some pot and immoduim got me through the physicals and the mental wd's are rapidly getting better. Im going to the gym tonight and plan on never turning back to this horrible addiction. Wish me luck. The future looks better and better everyday sober


----------



## solskinnzombie

you can indeed withdrawal from loperamide. my boyfriend would use it to withdrawal from morphine. but now he can't stop taking the loperamide. he will take anywhere from 48-96 imodium ad a day... and without them, he is pretty fuckin ill.


----------



## jhouston

PIC and Trip doctor
, this was on wikipedia

"However, loperamide has been shown to cause a mild physical dependence during preclinical studies, specifically in mice, rats, and rhesus monkeys. Symptoms of mild opiate withdrawal have been observed following abrupt discontinuation of long-term therapy with loperamide.[6][7]"


----------



## Bojangles69

I want to add that supposively lots of tonic water (500ml) which has quinine is suppose to help a lot with RLS. 
And I also read one of the reasons RLS is caused in nonopiate addicts is by low levels of magnesium/calcium/potassium. The concept is they are electrolytes that aid the transmission of nerve impulse across the body. If you don't have enough electolytes (ESPECIALLY if you are able to workout during wds) your body can amplify the akward RLS symptoms.

So even if M/C/P doesn't rid RLS completely, I still think it would be wiser to take it than not to take it during wds. I'm going to try the tonic water and MCP in another week or so when I jump back off the pods.

I also want to add people are recommending diphenhydramine for sleep and I've taken up to 150mg of it with absolutely NO ABILITY to sleep even a minute longer, and that was with even minor wds. To the people recommending diphen do you eat like a lb of that crap before it works? And since diphen is known to actually aggravate RLS in a lot of people, at this point I see it as a completely worthless drug for wds. Just from my experience obviously.

Also I should note because loperamide acts primarily in the body it may change the actual phase of wds along with delaying them.
What I mean is loperamide mainly addresses the body, where most of wds are anyway, but from my experience your mind can still be in wd (anxiety/depression) so if you take loperamide, I just imagine your body being a few weeks behind your head in terms of wd. And since it usually takes longer for my mind to get back to normal anyway, it may actually wind up equalizing the phases of mental and physical wds. Like pushing the physicals back closer to the end of the mental shit.
But thats just another theory of course from my experience.

I still wish there was better OTC things for sleep.
The strongest OTC for sleep I wound up using was phenibut, which imo rocks valerian/passion flower/diphenhydramine.. but it has far too many sides for my taste. 

Valerian alone never did much for wd induced insomnia, nor did passion flower (although w/out wds they feel rather strong) so I'm hoping a mixture of about 10 different OTC sleep remedies will actually succeed at shutting off my brain when I'm back in wds.

The main reason I'm trying to get xanax or valium right now is because although a lot of the OTC herbs/sleep meds have effects, I just speculate at their true ability to shut off the mind and induce sleep. They've just always seemed more "miss than hit", I just wish there was something more effective OTC for sleep that worked closer to actual benzos.. besides phenibut. Who knows maybe I'll just take the phenibut and deal with the side affects.. at least I'll sleep. Thats only if I can't get my hands on actual benzos first.


----------



## allalong

susynb said:


> i've gone through short but doable hells over the years from various opiates but my pain doc has me on fentanyl patch (50) for 5 months now and i here it the hellish of all detoxes.  i know i'm going to have to deal with this eventually but does anyone have anything that can help me through that's been there?



Although  fentanyl withdrawal is horrible, it is also probably the shortest withdrawal of any of the common opiates, so at least, what you have to look forward to going into this, is that you'll start to feel better very, very quickly (my impression is that the bulk of things are over in 72 hours, in most cases, but someone correct me if you have heard differently.) Also, you're lucky that you're not on 75 or 100 mcg patches, because fent withdrawals ramp up heavily with higher doses, given that it's a short half-life around-the-clock medication. 

Fentanyl withdrawal seems to cause temperature fluctuation more than others, although I am relying only on anecdotal evidence and subjective reports for this, so be sure to be somewhere where you can keep yourself warm (lots of blankets, hot showers, hot tea, etc.)

Because fentanyl withdrawal is short, the sedative drugs that are typically recommended for easing withdrawals will likely help you a lot. 

Benzos and muscle relaxants, taken for just the first day or two, will probably be of immense aid to you, if your doctor is willing to provide you with them. Soma (carisoprodol) and Flexeril (cyclobenzaprine) are good alternatives to benzos that mitigate withdrawal symptoms and allow you to feel more comfortable without being quite as horribly addictive. 

Clonidine doesn't seem to be QUITE as effective as these other drugs in many people, but it's very good, and it doesn't have the same potential for addiction.

As with any opiate, loperamide should help you to reduce a lot of the symptoms, particularly those that are GI-related, and makes the restlessness more bearable for some people. Loperamide can slightly extend the duration of withdrawals, but for many people, it's an absolute godsend. Start with 4-6 mg and increase as needed; for some people that amount works, other may need quite a bit more. It all comes down to what works for you as an individual. 

Good luck, I wish you the best in getting through this. Remember, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and although it's a shitty tunnel, it's very short.

Edit: Bojangles, I agree with you about diphenhydramine, and would strongly recommend that, unless it has worked for them before, anyone experiencing opiate withdrawals avoid it and other, similar antihistamines like the plague - other than perhaps one small dose during the day (NOT when you're planning on sleeping) to counteract watery eyes and a runny nose.


----------



## Blackeye

cashtothemoney said:


> I thought this would be helpful to all of you trying to get clean. I spent the last hour revising it, and editing it. Feel free to pass this along.
> 
> *A Guide to Opiate Withdrawal* by cashtothemoney
> _(w/ help from our over-the-counter friends)_
> 
> _*DISCLAIMER:* I'm not a doctor, but I have been reading about this sort of thing extensively for a very long time. This is not medical advice, but rather my own experience which you can take from what you want. In order to be in line with my own morals (and the LAW!), I have to say that it would be best to review this with a doctor before making any decisions. All drugs listed, with the exception of one, can be bought over-the-counter, but this does not mean that it is automatically "safe"._
> 
> *Introduction*
> 
> Expect the worst in withdrawal. It might not be "crazy", but it sure as hell won't be comfortable. At the same time, for some of you, it will be the hardest experience of your life. Lack of energy, muscle/bone aches, diarrhea, insomnia, depression, anxiety. It can be hell, but you can ease all of these withdrawal symptoms with over-the-counter drugs. I've survived it a few times, and as long as you keep yourself busy it can be made a bit easier. The physical part is somewhat similar to having the flu, but magnified depending on the dose/frequency of use/duration of use; however, I think I can speak for most people when I say, the mental struggle that follows the physical withdrawal is MUCH worse. This is given as a possible alternative to therapies such as methadone, buprenorphine, etc. Good luck to all of those attempting to rid themselves of addiction.
> 
> The intensity and length of opiate withdrawal will depend on a few factors. The larger the dose, the more intense the withdrawal. The longer you have been using, the longer and more intense the withdrawal will be. If you did it once a day, it might take a few days for the withdrawal to kick in. If you took opiates shortly before bed, insomnia might be the biggest problem. If you took opiates when you woke up, you might not feel like getting out of bed without them. All of this could be wrong, or it could all be right on the money. The point is opiate withdrawal will differ for everyone; however, it will universally suck.
> 
> *The Essentials*
> 
> Positive mindset
> A multivitamin
> Courage
> Determination
> An understanding that _this_ is not forever.
> 
> *Diarrhea*
> 
> 
> _Immodium A.D._ - 4-6mg loperamide per 50-60mg of oxycodone/hydrocodone. (May vary!)
> Try not to take this too often as it can make you REALLY constipated, but it can get rid of (in my experience as well as others) the majority of the physical withdrawal symptoms. Just remember that loperamide is an opiate, so it's better to only take if NEEDED. Laxatives can counter the constipation or try the natural route, fruit or olive oil.
> _Note:_ It is very important that you keep in mind that loperamide is an opiate, so you must also taper yourself off of loperamide, which can be done over the period of a few weeks to a month. This will let you start dealing with any mental dependency issues almost right away, which will be the hardest part of coming off opiates.
> 
> *Insomnia*
> 
> 
> _Benzodiazepines:_ Exercise EXTREME caution if you plan on using any sort of benzodiazepines to ease the insomnia. Examples of benzos include diazepam (Valium), alprazolam (Xanax), and clonazepam (Klonopin/Rivotril). For myself alprazolam and clonazepam work the best, although I will not recommend obtaining these illegally.  Working your way up from 0.5mg (assuming you have no tolerance) until you find your dose may be helpful. ONLY take these if you absolutely need them. I can't stress that enough. Benzodiazepines are, in my humble opinion, more addicting than opiates, and it is a fact that they are more dangerous. They are one of the few classes of drugs that can include DEATH in the withdrawal. Another positive aspect of using benzos would be the fact that it can really take the edge off if/when you are feeling stressed out and anxious. Research them extensively before you use them, as you do *NOT* want to trade addictions. If you are taking buprenorphine as an aid during withdrawal, do not take any benzodiazepines, as this combination has resulted in death.
> _Diphenhydramine: _This is an antihistamine which includes drowsiness as one of the side effects which makes it a great candidate for a sleep aid. It works wonders for many opiate addicts and I think this would be better to use than any benzos.
> 
> *Bone/Muscle Aches (with a little bit of advice for the mental part as well)*
> 
> Ibuprofen, Naproxen (Recommended dose/as needed)
> ABSOLUTELY *NO* OPIATES! The only way one can use opiates is if they are tapering. There are hardly any people with the willpower, and self-discipline to actually complete a successful taper. The road to becoming clean must be taken one day at a time, maybe even one hour or one minute at a time. Tell yourself to get through the next minute or hour. Reward yourself for getting through that period of time. If you start thinking about the next week, month, or year, you WILL overwhelm yourself.
> 
> *Lack of Energy/Depression*
> 
> *EXERCISE!* This is, by far, the number one way of combating the physical and mental part of withdrawal, including depression. You may not want to do anything, which could even include getting out of bed, but if you can motivate yourself to exercise, you will notice a dramatic increase in your energy levels and your mindset. This is what has made a dramatic difference each time I've gone through withdrawals. It is THE wonder drug, not to mention you can obtain the infamous “runner's high” after running for a certain amount of time.
> _L-Tyrosine: _(Available at GNC) Studies show l-tyrosine will help with depression, energy levels, and other mood disorders. It is a precursor to dopamine (the Almighty), norepinephrine, epinephrine, and L-dopa. Epinephrine and norepinephrine are two of the body’s stress-related hormones, and l-tyrosine’s role in their creation can help ease the negative effects of stress. Starting at 2000mg per day, and adjusting is one way to begin. Vitamin B6 is essential in the creation of the neurotransmitters, so be sure to take the it along with the l-tyrosine.
> _Vitamin B6:_ Vitamin B6 helps in the creation of serotonin (the “happy” neurotransmitter), dopamine, norepinephrine, and GABA (the mechanism in which benzodiazepines work through; reduces stress levels; induces relaxation). So one can easily see why B6 is beneficial. It also provides energy, and as said before, is essential in the conversion of l-tyrosine to the various neurotransmitters.
> _*FIND SOMEONE YOU CAN TALK TO!* _We all need to vent. Find a friend, someone on this forum, a psychologist, etc. It is essential if you want to succeed.
> Think about all of the things that can be done now. Money in the bank, be around for family/friends, not worry about your next fix, not be sick all the time, etc.
> 
> *Other supplements that could help:* Kava (anxiety), valerian root (anxiety/insomnia).
> 
> *Closing Notes*
> 
> The worst of the physical withdrawal will most likely be over after the 4th day. It typically lasts 3-5 days and fades off after that, but can last as long as a week (longer with opiates with a long half-life, such as methadone). I've found the fourth day to be the worst, and once you are over that hump you start to feel physically better. Then, it is time to deal with the mental problems that result.
> 
> If you have friends that do drugs, you have to separate yourself from them. Unless you are superman, or have an abnormal sense of self-discipline, you will have to do this as the temptation is too great for most. Getting away for a week can really make all the difference in the world. Staying clean is a lifelong journey, and if that is what you are after, YOU CAN DO IT! Don’t give up if you have a bad day or are feeling a bit down. Keep yourself busy. It can make all the difference in the world. Start a new hobby, continue an old one, spend time with the family, go hiking, go for a walk, talk to a stranger, have a cup of coffee (avoid it in the beginning as this can worsen anxiety), etc.
> 
> As addicts, we might have started doing opiates for fun, or maybe to cover up problems. It might have only been a weekend romance, but that changed into a daily obsession. We might be broke, losing friends, and at rock bottom. Sometimes there are problems that we try to cover up, and a lot of emotions come out as the drug leaves our body. We have to get used to living a “normal” life, and dealing with “normal” problems. It is important to get to the root of the problems, and face them head on. There is no more hiding. After all, the REAL you is coming out from hiding as well. You mine as well make the most of it.
> 
> Best of luck to all of you in your endeavors. Godspeed.
> 
> *Additional Reading:*
> L-tyrosine - http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Ency/Index.cfm/Id/2919008
> Vitamin B6 - http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB6/



Hot bath/shower' food and water' effervecent vit c' 
Porridge(long chain carbohydrates) is good with some salt and sugar' good for the liver and kidneys' help clear the opiates/toxins from the system'
"Nigella Sativa" Blessed seed 100% oil' calming and stimulating and alleviates lots of the physical and psychological stresses of withdrawal' "Calcium Channel Blocker" also potentiates opioids' so can be used to reduce opioid in-take'
Nigella knocks the top off a weed high' tends to put the buzz to the body/head' but no the psychi' makes blowing weed feel physicaly somewhat like Harmols'
250-500mg/day' 1-2 caps can reduce most of the withdrawal to minimal' tends to increase appetite and also has pain alleviating properties' "Nigella Sativa" is used extencively in eastern countries to help with opiate withdrawal and abstinence' you lose the erge to take opiates if you take "Nigella" each day' and use less opiate if you do use'

Nice thread' appreciate your sharing'

Bliss!
+NNM+


----------



## superBee

DXM works well for the mental depression and anxxiety. not taking enough to trip
taking just enough for it to lift the mental anxiety and depression which for me is 300mg
but for a newbie 50-100mg. 

and keep using only asmuch as you need to so your tolerance doesnt go up, youll need dxm for many days.


----------



## MissArielLauren

I get the WORSE anxiety (xanax) and back pains (suboxone/methadone). I don't want to get out of bed at all (adderall).


----------



## BLC2008

MissArielLauren said:


> I get the WORSE anxiety (xanax) and back pains (suboxone/methadone). I don't want to get out of bed at all (adderall).



Yes, I know the feeling.
I'm tapering off of an oxy habit.
I have found Lyrica helps a lot.
I also realize this thread started years ago.


----------



## crystalserenity

[*]_Benzodiazepines:_ Exercise EXTREME caution if you plan on using any sort of benzodiazepines to ease the insomnia. Examples of benzos include diazepam (Valium), alprazolam (Xanax), and clonazepam (Klonopin/Rivotril). For myself alprazolam and clonazepam work the best, although I will not recommend obtaining these illegally.  Working your way up from 0.5mg (assuming you have no tolerance) until you find your dose may be helpful. ONLY take these if you absolutely need them. I can't stress that enough. Benzodiazepines are, in my humble opinion, more addicting than opiates, and it is a fact that they are more dangerous. They are one of the few classes of drugs that can include DEATH in the withdrawal. Another positive aspect of using benzos would be the fact that it can really take the edge off if/when you are feeling stressed out and anxious. Research them extensively before you use them, as you do *NOT* want to trade addictions. If you are taking buprenorphine as an aid during withdrawal, do not take any benzodiazepines, as this combination has resulted in death.

 This is an older post so OP is prolly not around, but this really freaked me out as I have been taking sub n temazepam for 2 mos now. I searched BL for days along with using interaction checker at Drugs.com regarding this befor taking them together. The interaction checker listed them in same category as opys n benzos, which I of course have used a lot. I also have a friend whom is RX sub n temazepam by her sub DR. Now I would like to hear any experience or opinions on this. Please!
Love n Light    CS


----------



## Triggergrrl

what is an IM?


----------



## OverDone

Triggergrrl said:


> what is an IM?



Intra Muscular


----------



## RIP ST. BUK

does phenibut  work the same as baclofen, i got a bunch of baclofen left and was wondering if it has same sort of affect on GABA as phenibut?


----------



## sunnydayc420

I think this is one of my first posts - and should possibly be directed toward the Dark Places? However, my situation is more so around kicking addition -ready and willing and "too broke to overdose," as one of my favorite bands would say. Its been years of nearly 200mg give or take of hydro/oxycodoneoxycontin/dilaudid, etc a day. Recently have tapered myself down to tolerate < 50.5. Sadly, that seems like an accomplishment. Before then, anything less than 100mg would still give me cold sweats and couldnt sleep cause of the leg shakes. The point has come now where my life and family and relationships have been taken over and effected and I truly need to do this for myself and them.  I'm done, I want to quit, but by the time I get to the 14 hour mark and feel like hell, I give-in to temptation, if resources prevail. Even Norco are hard to find on the west coast right now. It's a booming industry yet all the doctors are cracking down. Too much demand for the supply, that's for sure. That's just one of a million reasons to quit. I continually tell myself how much better life will be when the habit is gone...but the withdrawls are so bad...and I've honestly never made it past 14 or so hours before this morning. I'm coming up on 24 hours and it scares me that I already feel so shitty and the worst hasn't even started  As a new-poster (I've been using this site for a LONG TIME), I'd love any feedback on OTC goodies to help make this easier. I'm just looking for a support group to help me through these withdrawls I'll inevitably start having in the very near future if I can't get a hold of anything pills today.


----------



## majorigpa

staypuft said:


> oh...and since benzos were included in the guide and they're not exactly OTC i can probably also add that Ketamine completely stops (postpones...?) all the physical and mental withdrawl from opiates...
> 
> i managed to not get dopesick for a couple of days by doing an IM every hour or so a while back...but i would NOT recommend this to anyone



in my experience K helps much more with the mental recovery following the 3-5 day "dopesick" stage.  MAPS (the multi-disciplinary association for psychedlic studies) has also recently released studies that have found ketamine does indeed have therapeutic value in treating acute depression, which i personally feel for at least 2-4 weeks after my physical withdrawal.  i've found that bumping a light dose of ketamine (30 mg's or so) when my depression starts to get extremely debilitating does wonders, temporarily letting me drift away from the crushing pain of existence that is depression.  the 30 mg dose keeps my spirits up for days at a time, and i am careful to absolutely NOT use K any more than i have to to feel comfortable.  i feel it's usefulness runs its course in about 2 weeks.  after that, it's up to me to start being constructive and getting involved with life instead of burying my anxieties in opiates, ketamine or otherwise.  i am fully aware of the potential for cross-addiction, but for me personally, the depressive mental aspect of opiate withdrawal is by far the worst part, and anti-depressants are not an option for a temporary problem in my eyes.  ketamine gives me the immediate and short-acting relief that i need to get back on my feet.


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## toolegit_toquit

Hey guys, Im tapering off tramadol right now. I wanted to get some input on drug combinations. Ive been taking tramadol for pain and depression and, recently, I finally asked my doctor to help me taper off. Shes given me Prozac (which is pretty helpful) and meloxicam for the restlessness. However, I still cant get to sleep at night so I have some valium that I just started which works wonders (not prescribed). I am worried about getting hooked however and if it interacts with the Prozac. One more thing- I have been originally prescribed concerta for mild a.d.d. which I haven't even touched since I started using valium because that I know is a dangerous combo. I also stopped concerta because that coming down gives me the worst feeling in the world and it lasts all night. Its seems like if I could find a way to ease the anxiety I can stay on my prescribed Prozac and low dose of concerta. How has Kava and/or l-tyrosine worked on some people?  I Any other suggestions for non-addictive anxiety/sleep remedies?


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## Pill2Chill

^I'm in tramadol w/d too atm and trust me you don't want to use benzos, or atleast you don't want an addiction. The withdrawal is much much worse IME and it lasts so disgustingly long, so do anything you can to avoid that diazepam like the plague. Using it 1-2 times a week could work (for a *short* time), but it's tough to stick to that regimen. It's better to suffer a little more now than to add a LOOOOONG ass withdrawal from benzos to your problem. I speak from experience.

You should look into kava kava as a gabaergic

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned (I only skimmed through page 1) but magnesium can be of help too as a muscle relaxant that has no downsides.

Nice post and nice tips. Appreciate the effort.


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## Luv3paws

DO NOT DO BENZOS!!! You're gonna have to just stick it out and feel shitty! It's just gonna have to be! Niacin,magnesium,tonic water, these things have all helped me in relaxing and sleeping- with my muscles- especially the niacin- good luck - you can do it- just don't get hooked on other addictive drugs to get off certain drugs- I have been down this road- opiates>Suboxone>benzos>more Suboxone ..... 8 years later ....if only I had a good dr that would have worked with me!!!!


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## toolegit_toquit

Thanks a ton for the replies. I figured benzos would not be the right path to take as I move through this tapering process. PilltoChill: Thanks for the advice, it feels good to know I am not the only one going through this. I will definitely try the Kava Kava. And Luv3paws (I love the username ), Magnesium never crossed my mind and I probably have some niacin and magnesium hanging around in the vitamin cabinet. Im lucky enough to have my doc working with me so I am going to tell her that I tried the benzos but I know my addiction will just keep those in my life long after the tramadols are gone. I feel for you all who have to deal with this withdrawal bullshit. But as always, take it one day at a time because thinking too much about the future is what keeps me up at night. Breathing techniques also help to ease the mind into a calm state. But sometimes, you just cant shake the symptoms. Therefore, Im gonna give some new remedies a try and put the valium away for now. Good luck to all who are in this boat. May we all make it through successfully.


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## Jflenke

I've quit opiates and subs. In order to finally quit, I used about 4-8mg of Xanax a day (at first), Gatorade/Powerade/Vitamin Water, Tylenol/Advil, Protein Shakes like Muscle Milk, Loperamide, & benadryl. The liquids that I listed kept you hydrated. You need to slowly begin to eat and exercise, even if it's just a little at a time. Loperamide (Immodium AD) is an OTC opiate used for diarrhea that doesn't cross the BBB, so it won't get you high but it'll stop the sh*ts and RLS and stomach pains. The tylenol/advil for any headaches or body pain. The benadryl for help with the sneezing, running nose, watery eyes, & restlessness. The most important factor in a quitting supply kit is Xanax. Be cautious because these are somewhat addictive if overused or used improperly. These completely eliminate all anxiety, muscle cramps, insomnia, & put you in a good mood. It's almost impossible to OD on Xanax, so don't mess around with tiny doses, take enough so that you feel it. 1.5-3mgs per dose should make you feel MUCH better.  Keep in mind, they are addictive,  so proceed with caution. Xanax will also give you the munchies, which is good during withdrawal. Suboxone WD doesn't start for 2-3 days until after your last dose, and heroin/oxy withdrawal begins 12-24 hous after your last dose so you shouldn't start this regime until then. Having something to occupy your time like DVD box sets, books, magazines, ANYTHING. The withdrawal will last 3-5 weeks with subs and 2-4 weeks with oxy/heroin/vicodin, ect, so it'll cost some dollars to buy all these supplies, but your sobriety is worth it so stick to it, you can/you NEED, to do this. Cut down on your Xanax and loperamide use by 25% each week. Also, never take more than 3,000 mgs of tylenol a day, it's awful for your liver. I've helped 44 people stay clean from subs & opiates with this plan and I have a day by day instructional guide to follow and I also provide all the meds that I listed. I'm also available for 24/7 telephone or email support. Your party is over. It's time for you to get your life back!!! My email address is mixingjokes@ymail.com. Try it my way and set your life free. Your old life is waiting for you. Take care.
Jeff


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## jferraro63

I have a question. I current do anywhere from 150 to 300 mgs oxycodone daily orally. I need to stop and now. I do not snort or shoot just orally. My question is this, how bad will the withdrawls be? Been taking them for about 3 years now and do not want to use any other recepies or medications, just stopping cold turkey. Any input would greatly be appreciated. Thank you


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## neversickanymore

jferraro63 said:


> I have a question. I current do anywhere from 150 to 300 mgs oxycodone daily orally. I need to stop and now. I do not snort or shoot just orally. My question is this, how bad will the withdrawls be? Been taking them for about 3 years now and do not want to use any other recepies or medications, just stopping cold turkey. Any input would greatly be appreciated. Thank you



Im not going to kid you they will suck bad if you go cold turkey.  I would highly suggest Clonidine and tapering or you will wish you were dead.   Good news is that you have not crossed over to subs or methadone which has a much longer half life (in case you don't know this is the amount of time it takes your body to metabolize (break down) a particular opiate {or in fact any drug}.  It is a function of exponential decay, or in plain words if a particular opiate has a half life of 24 hours and you take 100mg you will have 50mg in your system after 24 hours, after another 24 hours after that you will still have 12mg, 24 after that you will still have 6mg.. and so on).  unfortunately for all people that have abstained from the needle ect. delivery method of the drug doesn't effect initial physical withdraw, sorry.  It does however lessen your chances of OD and changes the order that the addictive behavior was logged by the limbic system or the reward pathway of the brain.  This is ultimately in your favor later on when you have completed the easy part of getting clean, yeah i said the easy part.. but like us all you will not believe that bridge exists until you cross it and will curse my name during detox as a heretic.  You see the brain categorizes experiences that cause dopamine releases in the brain, the bigger and quicker the release the higher up the categorization and thus the harder the associated addiction.  Then a grand illusion comes into play, the real control of you is your limbic system not the frontal lobe of your cerebral cortex.  You have now permanently reprogrammed your limbic system to think that taking those oxies is not only crutial to life but you have probably placed it on the top of the list.  Your conscious mind, where you are thinking rite now is just guidance and temporary control over your instincts.. which you already reprogrammed.  so you may have to seek the help of other clean addicts to stay that way.   

anyway since you are on a short half-life opiate and sincerely want to stop resist with all your might the almost overwhelming urge you will have during withdraw to switch to a maintenance program of suboxone or methadone, these have very long half lives and will just the make the inevitable that much longer and worse.  just to let you know in aug i came off 150mg methadone, 260mg roxies, 6mg xanax, and .5 to 1g of exTARcuriculars a day in three weeks and am still clean today. 

 What I would do If i were you.  Provided you still have access to the oxys.  take yourself down 10 milligrams at a time.  so if your lowest comfortable maintenance dose is 150mg cut to 14mg and stay at that dose until you feel ok, not normal but decent, for me i cut down about ten milligrams every three or four days.  Then i would add Clonidine to the mix if you have trouble or wish too speed the process.  This is a non addictive non mood altering blood pressure medication  that works wonders.  I took .2mg every 3.75 hours at the end of my insane taper and was able to sleep, eat, and function and even fuck all the way throughout detoxing off that ridiculous dose. after you are clean  it will take between 4.5 and five months for your opiate receptors to start to shut down and your brain should be relay clear by 7.5 months.  it will suck don't kid yourself but now that your here it will have to be done. it will be pretty bad for a bit then every day gets a little better. very best of luck.


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## aussie101

I would say having benzos has made the difference between me relapsing and not relapsing. There is only so much agitation and insomnia one can take. But I was a raging opiate fiend - my habit was huge. If you can go without I would recommend that. I am going to taper off the benzos once Uni starts besides I have reduced to only 2 5mg diazepam a day and a clonazepam at night.


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## jferraro63

Thank you 'neversickanymore' for your reply. I have done a little bit more research and do in fact agree that you are in fact correct in every aspect of this issue. I really appreciate your reply and advise and will in fact do this. I have faith i can beat this. I will not back down and give in to this devil. Just needed to know that there will be someone i can speak to during the rough part. I do in fact have access to the oxys of needed. But so far as of today i have not taken any for about 24 hours now. I do not feel any different as of yet and actually so far being 24 hours or so after my last dose feel pretty decent for now anyway. Putting me on these things was the absolute worse thing my doctor could have ever done. I really had no clue what i was getting into and my doc wasn't really giving me many answers at the time. Now knowing how devilish they are i would have much rather continued to deal with the pain rather than go on these meds. But a lesson was learned my wife and children have no idea how bad off i am with these right now and can not tell them hence the reason for my posts here. I am really glad to know that there are people out there that are willing to talk to someone else and try to help. That makes it a lot easier for me to kick this in the ass. I can do this, i can beat the devil. I will not give into temptation my mind is set and i will do it. I have in fact in the past tried to kick it without asking anyone for advise and in fact failed due to getting scared of the withdrawals before they even kicked in. But needless to say its a done deal. I am not backing down no matter how bad the with drawls get. I can do this. I will do this. Thank you so much again for your reply it made it a lot easier to deal with. I really can not thank you enough. I will in fact post daily to let you know how it is progressing. It really helps using the forum. Makes my mind feel at ease. Thank you again and be safe and also stay clean. You can do it as well. We all can we just need to set our minds to beat it. Take care and best of luck to you as well. If you need an ear to talk to as well i am here for you as well. Don't back down. Stay strong and we can do this.


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## ~QuirKyNai~

Now sayimh the worstpart of witdrawl will be.over.in.5.days.only.pertains.to shorter.acting,more.abusable opiates..in my case.im dealinh with having to deal with the dreaded buprenorphine withdrawls,which can last.years..im in this boat.where im teyinh to drop mu dose below .5mg/day..and its surprisingly hard.each phase.of the.witjdrawls.last significantly longer.wjich.scared the shit.outa me. I was shootinh heroin for agood two years until i.went to rehab.and.the whole 28days.i did not.feel right at all.especiallyno energy..well afyer rehab mayne.a.few months afyer.i.got into.doinh.roxicodone.for a.year(15mgx4 times)/day..umtil my.gd decided.to switcj.to sunoxone..amd me amd herbeen on.tjay.for the past 3.or.4 years..amd i was done with opiates wem.ww got on.the subs...but.seeinh how suboxone works....iy reallu is a hard ome.to get off of.
Is there anh.pplthathave.neen aoan.subozone.amd are off now tjatcana give.advice.on how to maintain afyer.jimpimh  off ur laat dose?iys just.so.harf..it likea to pick at u in a way.iaf thatsmakes semse


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## bluemonkey

for loperamide please be careful and sure you want off for good before you start. I took it for a yr on and off with my other meds mixed in like switching back ad forth and it caused the begining of liver failure. im now just on hydro and trying to taper and it seems like those odd symptoms that lead me to get a liver function test are slowly leaving. i would add electrolytes and Dramamine to the meds list and hypnosis. if you are using hypnosis i would recommend either working with a therapist before or a recording that conditions a relaxation trigger before you w/d. the better conditioned the trigger is the easier it will be to use during the withdrawl. i'm hoping to taper over 6 weeks and i'm also using a recorded hypnosis session to train a deep relaxation trigger every day during the 6 weeks.


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## Mountaingirl001

I was addicted to Percocet 10/325 for 3 years. I was prescribed them by my pain doctor. I was taking between 12 and 15 a day. I am a veteran and finally went to the VA. The Doctor prescribed clonodine and I was skeptical. I didn't take it at first. I have withdrawn 3 times on my own only to relapse every time. Finally I said I was tired of having a pill run my life and started taking the clonodine. I detoxed in 7 days without any fever, snot, chills, vomiting, restless legs, or cravings. I did have to have some anxiety medication, but I only took it how the doctor prescribed it. You need to go to your doctor and tell them the truth and do not hide anything. They will help you. Don't let your pride stop you from getting help. It is nothing to be ashamed of. I'm So happy I told my doctor the truth because now a week later, I am free from dependency, shame, lying, and addiction. Only you can do this and you can't bullshit yourself. You have to want it and have a spine.


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## mikemustang15

I know this thread hasn't been posted on in a long time but.  I recently was able to get xanax.  I am going to be done taking oxy.  I only take about 7.5-15 mg at night.  I have tried taking nothing and the insomnia and not being able to sleep/mind racing body racing was the worst.  

Question I have is does Xanax really help with that?  this will be my first time ever taking a benzo.  I really am not addicted where I need to take the pills, honestly it just got the point where i took for too many weeks at a time at night and then when i stopped the sleeplessness and anxiety at night got bad so I hated not taking them.  

thanks


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## Abbazabbaonlyfrnd

I was hoping more people would be posting but it seems to have tapered off. I was wondering if anyone knows anything about poppyseed tea? My husband found out about it and we were drinking at least two per day (could not tell you how much he used to make it, he always made it for us). I do know that it made it so I couldn't feel anything when I took two of my prescribed Vicodin. I'm normally the sensible one but he actually said we needed to stop after my mother got upset when she noticed I was no longer myself. She used to be a meth addict, so I openly told her about the tea way before this. Anyway, at about midnight it will be one week without any use whatsoever. We're past the diarrhea, vomiting, and all that. I don't even want anymore because withdrawals feel like fucking torture. I'm now experiencing "brain shivers", I recognize them from when I tried to stop my antidepressants, which I'm now taking regularly. Anyone else have any experience with these as you tried to quit? Sorry about the book but it feels good to get it all out there.


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## GoshtGoi

Since Loperamide binds to opioid receptors it acts much like an opiate, for this reason it's known as "the poor man's Methadone", and is commonly used as an OTC addiction maintenance aid. I don't advise this, as the doses needed can become extremely large and this can cause kidney or liver damage, and will lead to dependency and the need to taper down and experience withdrawal when quitting.  All opiate addiction maintenance drugs ARE opiates themselves, and in the case of Methadone and Bupernorphine are actually considerably more potent than diamorphine (heroin) and thus have their own dangers including addiction and eventual withdraw, and so should always be used cautiously. Good luck and Godspeed!


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## manboychef

be wary of benzos....even after two or three weeks of use of alprazolam, or clonazepam, or lorazepam, you will feel some mental effects that aren't very charming. life is crazy.


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## Mizeo101186

I have a q, my girlfriend is going to start detoxing soon and wants to know if it is possible to skin pop the new Subutex? If not or if so is it better to skin pop it or to snort it through the nose? Thank you


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## Jabberwocky

Welcome to BL Mizeo101186 

Skin popping pills is generally a bad idea. Assuming the new Subutex is a pill, I have no fucking clue. But whatever it is, if you do decide you must skin pop it, have you thought about muscling or shooting it? And if you must use buprenorphine IM/IV (BAD FUCKING IDEA when you're using it in any form it wasn't meant to be used in to inject) please get yourself a micron/wheel filter and hit up your local needle exchange and get enrolled there. 

I would really, really advise you not to use your maintenance/pain meds for anything but what they were prescribed, but if you must, please don't kill yourself or lose a limb. Getting an abscess under your thigh/butt cheek is like super not pretty. I doubt you would be very impressed with your girlfriend if she loses a limp or catches some horrible disease. There are lots of nice and juice graphic pictures of what happens when you improperly inject shit in BL's Other Drug's forum. 

What was your significant other taking? What kind of situation are you in now in terms of support for her detox?


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## Mizeo101186

toothpastedog said:


> Welcome to BL Mizeo101186
> 
> Skin popping pills is generally a bad idea. Assuming the new Subutex is a pill, I have no fucking clue. But whatever it is, if you do decide you must skin pop it, have you thought about muscling or shooting it? And if you must use buprenorphine IM/IV (BAD FUCKING IDEA when you're using it in any form it wasn't meant to be used in to inject) please get yourself a micron/wheel filter and hit up your local needle exchange and get enrolled there.
> 
> I would really, really advise you not to use your maintenance/pain meds for anything but what they were prescribed, but if you must, please don't kill yourself or lose a limb. Getting an abscess under your thigh/butt cheek is like super not pretty. I doubt you would be very impressed with your girlfriend if she loses a limp or catches some horrible disease. There are lots of nice and juice graphic pictures of what happens when you improperly inject shit in BL's Other Drug's forum.
> 
> What was your significant other taking? What kind of situation are you in now in terms of support for her detox?



Well she is hooked on heroin in phx and came for 2 weeks in Tennessee with me to detox she isn't prescribed the subutex but bought and brought 14 of them she didn't know if skin pop or muscling subutex was dangerous or not. Ty for your reply


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## Jabberwocky

Yeah, to say it is dangerous is putting is mildly. Sweet dreams


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## closeau

I'm coming in this convo late and uninformed but iv Suboxone is a nightmare. I know this personally. About a month ago I did an 8th of a strip like I was told and immediately had a panic attack. It's like injecting anxiety straight in you and did nothing for my wd. I'm about to go thru 2 weeks of wd. During that time I will get a small amount of opiates but I'm preparing today. I'm getting some things that help me like B6 and DXM and may even get some ephedrine for energy. Got an appt Monday and gonna get some Clonidine. I think about the money and pain I would have saved myself if I didn't abuse my dilaudid the past 2.5 weeks. Well time to pay the piper


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## annadubose

Hi I really appreciate the effort you put into that post...I'm looking for a more specific regimine.  I have 3 1/2 8mg suboxones  a bottle of .5 klonopin a few seroquel and a bottle of 500mg robaxin. I have a very supportive bf who I live with and so I have a safe and comfortable place to kick. I would love for someone to give me a very specific breakdown of how I should wean down every day. I've been shooting a little over 10 bags a day and meth a few times a day. I just want this to be as painless as possible. Any advice is welcome! Thanks really needing support right now!


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## Jabberwocky

How long have you been using 10 bags a day? That is about a gram? ECP or tar? 

So do you shoot a bundle multiple times a day, or just 10 bags per day? 

How long have you been injecting?

Sorry for all the questions, but they are necessary to give you the best possible advice.


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## Kyle210

While some members here are dismissing benzodiazepines here, I can say that they are very very helpful. However, they are just as addicting as opioids and and withdrawals are way worse in my opinion. 

However, if you get just a few, 'maybe qty 10 to take 1 bid, I don't think it would hurt. For me, Lorazepam and Alprazolam (Ativan and Xanax) have by far been most helpful but Clonazepam (Klonopin) is helpful too. And perhaps you should try Clonazepam only as it has a longer half life and is not as likely to be abused (note: *as likely*. Many people can abuse it easily.) 

I must add that low doses of Adderral are good enough if you want a mood boost. But caution, as sometimes the awareness can just cause you to feel horrible. 

Lastly, I strongly encourage antihistamines. First-generation antihistamine Hydroxyzine has been analyzed as possibly being effective for opioid withdrawal. 

I am prescribed hydroxodone, tramadol, Clonazepam Lorazepam and Adderral. Also Hydroxyzine. I guess I'm somewhat lucky to have these. I need them as my anxiety is horrible and I have severe back pain. 

As most people who are in constant intense pain, it's not uncommon, even from a non abuser to take a few extra hydroxodones/whatever throughout the month. I have half a Norco left and my appointment is Wednesday. I have enough tramadol to give me 3 a day until Wednesday.(Rxed 4 a day, q6h). But even with the tramadol that *definitely* has allowed me to avoid  full withdrawal, I still get them because it's a significantly smaller amount of opioids than my body is used to. During these times, I typically take Lorazepam 1mg tid in addition to my regimen Clonazepam 2.5mgs/day, an Adderral 30mg ER, diclofenac (Rx NSAID) , and Ambien 5-10mgs PRN (I'm on enough meds.. gabapebtin, tizanadine, duloxetine, the list goes on). 

Anyway they help. 

***** I strongly propose that you try to sleep as much as possible for the first few days. While I don't discourage benzos, or even amphetamines, if you're trying to get off a drug and are prone to abuse, perhaps these additions are not good. Maybe ask your doc for Rx Trazadone for sleep. 

Also I think Suboxone is a great method to help stop abusing as the goals are relapse prevention and harm reduction. If you think you're likely to go back to the opioid, consider suboxone. It may suck to take it the rest of your life but if it prevents shooting up or taking large quantities of opioids, many with APAP in it, it's worth it. ****

As for those proposing Imodium, it doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier. You would probably have to take 10-20 and maybe a seroquel to help it pass. Not a desirable thing. 

Kratom is great great too! 

Best,
BSN, LCDC


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## GloomyDawn

Been using legal opiates for pain for over 40 years on and off.  Then tried Heroin even tho I knew it was gonna be a stupid idea.  I have on occasion if not too heavily addicted to some big guns, been able to wean.  That is rare.  My best efforts have come with a combination of a medical detox (and ask around because they are not all the same or good) and a recovery support group.  Usually, however, it is just too effing hard too kick cold turkey, cannot do it.  so, give yourself whatever props you can that you know won't make it worse, like assuming your self-will alone is enough because you should know by now it probably isn't and get whatever help you can.  I've been to medical detox twice, both times completed but very uncomfortable.  Get help.  You are not weak, you are addicted.  i also have clinical depression that started before any opiate use, and a dual diagnoses can make things more challenging.  Heroin is hard to kick by yourself in my opinion, because the quality is inevitably uneven and can't be metered effectively.  See if you can get into a medical detox, and when you get out, take a deep breath and get your ass into a support group of your choice.  No excuses.  i have found them to be essential to continuous abstention from substances.  Good luck.


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## jdfisse

There is some really twisted logic going on here, "I am about to start detoxing from the hell I am in so is there anyway I can use detox meds in an irresponsible way to help me get over my persistent irresponsibility."  I suffer from the disease of addiction as well and that is certainly a very addict way of thinking and definitely something I have been guilty of.  If a person is really ready to detox doing it in as responsible manner as possible would probably be a good idea.


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## Jabberwocky

What particular "twisted logic" are you referring to jdfisse? 

The take away of your post I think is the last sentence, that a detox should be done in a responsible manner as possible. And most people would prefer to do it that way, I don't know anyone who would choose willingly to detox irresponsibly. It is just a matter of folks learning how and being given access to the tools to make it possible for them in specific - and sadly this is rare.


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## jdfisse

I am referring to the possibly well thought out idea of using suboxone or subutex to help with detoxing followed by "can it be skinpopped?"  Its like saying, "I like high colonics so let me go get the firehose."

[Mea Culpa.  I didn't realize this was the 6th page of a thread.  I bounced in thinking this was the first page.  LOL yeah I can see how my comment could be construed as me just being a complete sociopathic douchebag]


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## Vcj08

I am curently withdrawing on day 6 from a two month 50 - 60 mg daily hydrocodone habbit. I've done this once before c/t and was alright after 4 days. This time the symptoms have been insane. I am still experiencing horrible anxiety, can't get out of my head, and "crazy skin". Only difference is that this time I used .5mg of xanax at night for a couple hours of sleep. Do you think the xanax is causing some of the prolonged symptoms? I felt pretty good last night as I finally held some food down and tried to go without the xanax but at around 4 am with no chance of sleeping and starting to panic I caved and took .5mg xanax and slept for about an hour and felt horrindous after.  When will I start to see the light at the end of the tunnel? Did I screw up and start something with the xanax?


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## simco

Vcj08 said:


> I am curently withdrawing on day 6 from a two month 50 - 60 mg daily hydrocodone habbit. I've done this once before c/t and was alright after 4 days. This time the symptoms have been insane. I am still experiencing horrible anxiety, can't get out of my head, and "crazy skin". Only difference is that this time I used .5mg of xanax at night for a couple hours of sleep. Do you think the xanax is causing some of the prolonged symptoms? I felt pretty good last night as I finally held some food down and tried to go without the xanax but at around 4 am with no chance of sleeping and starting to panic I caved and took .5mg xanax and slept for about an hour and felt horrindous after.  When will I start to see the light at the end of the tunnel? Did I screw up and start something with the xanax?



It's very unlikely that mild use of benzos like xanax would either prolong your WD or introduce any kind of physical dependency of their own.  Of course, caution is a smart move with benzos.  But their main risks arise with prolonged usage.   

The severity of opioid acute withdrawal can really vary from kick to kick, so I think the likeliest explanation for what you're experiencing is simply that this is a rougher instance than what you've experienced in the past.  Luckily, even though there is variation from experience to experience, withdrawing from a fast-acting opioid like hydrocodone will resolve itself (physically) in a fairly short time frame.  If you can hang on a few more days, I bet you'll start feeling much better.

Meanwhile, if the xanax is helping, I'd give yourself permission to use it.  Just treat it with the caution it deserves, which it sounds like you're doing already.

I hope you feel better soon.
Sim


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## the last dose

I agree with Sim the xanax at this point in wds will only help get you some needed sleep. It is strange your feeling that bad still at this point i think you will start feeling better soon.
But get used to the insomnia i took a xanax for sleep almost every other nite just to get enough sleep to be sane. The insomnia is the worse part of wds and paws for me but it does get better hang in there vcj08 BTW i also had lyrica for wds it was a godsend i actually got better sleep on the days i took lyrica than xanax. Xanax is short acting so i would only get a couple hours sleep from it the best benzos for wds are ativan, valium any longer acting benzo will give you more sleep. good luck


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## Vcj08

Thanks for the support. I've got a wife that was super supportive the first time but not so much now. I'm stopping for good, I told her to not allow anymore in the house and I don't buy illegally. I wish an otc sleep aid would work but they don't work ever on me. The insomnia is killer. It throws me into panic attacks because I have a 3 and 5 year old that need all of my attention(tball, four wheelers, food lol). Opiates are not for me. I know my habit was small compared to most on here but I can't do this again EVER. I want this to end soo badly.


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## simco

You might find the suggestion by The Last Dose to be a big help--in terms of insomnia relief during opioid WD, xanax is way better than nothing.  But slower-metabolizing benzos like Ativan or Klonopin might give a much better effect.


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## Vcj08

End of Day 8 of absolutely no opiates and the days are way easier but the nights are still torture. I decided not to use the xanax for the last three nights and haven't slept a wink. Darkness brings on the anxiety and the bed feels like an insane asylum. I'm thinking I'm actually going through a little bit of wd on the five days of xanax because I'm almost certain my problems should be over on the hydrocodone from my past experience and from what I've read. Insomnia is really hitting me hard and the anxiety it brings(something I dont struggle with normally) is wearing on me. That's my update while I sit here in the dark, rubbing my legs for comfort, praying for daylight.


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## Jabberwocky

Definitely use the alprazolam at night if you aren't sleeping. If you were dependent on the alprazolam prior to this, it would be better finding a longer acting benzodiazepine to use for a couple days if not simply a non-gabaergic drug.  

Not sleeping makes the process infinitely more difficult (as you are finding I'm sure). The insomnia related to acute withdrawal can drag on for longer than other symptoms, especially if you have been using for a long time. Ideally you would be able to take a non-gabaergic sleep medication like trazadone or a gabaergic drug like gabapentin, pregabalin or baclofen (which acts slightly differently than benzos). 

Do you have a doctor you can work with to address your insomnia?



jdfisse said:


> I am referring to the possibly well thought out idea of using suboxone or subutex to help with detoxing followed by "can it be skinpopped?"  Its like saying, "I like high colonics so let me go get the firehose."



No, I don't think you're being a douche, I'm just being critical for other reasons. I'm not sure it is appropriate to characterize a decision like that as a well thought out idea. By it's very nature, that kind of thought process is that arrives at the conclusion that it is a good idea to inject a maintenance medication probably has not involved the deepest investigation or thought on the part of the user. Instead I see it as more a visceral reaction based in long standing thought/habit patterns to the immense pain they are experiencing (whether psychological or otherwise, suffering is suffering) transitioning from a lifestyle where they are using something like oxycodone or heroin to manage their mood to, essentially, nothing. 

It's like how no one just decides to wake up one day and inject drugs without generally having a damn good reason (living with intense physical or psychological pain unknown to those who don't feel the need to regulate their mood with powerful substance, considering how inherently painful lifestyle involved in chronic injection drug/opioid use tends to be). No one just decides to up and inject their ORT medication without a pretty damn good reason, however unsustainable or unhealthy it might be.

Injecting buprenorphine isn't exactly the biggest step forward from injecting other opioids, but in early recovery I'm more concerned with moving the person forward however they can. It isn't unfair to say that injecting buprenorphine (while hardly a good idea), is a bit less harmful than injecting something like heroin (for a number of reasons). Faaaaar from ideal, but with harm reduction we try to meet people wherever they're at without judgement or criticism. 

Which is why I love HR - we aren't big on coercive forms of treatment that aren't in line with the user's actual goals. Perhaps what the individual using buprenorpine "improperly" indicates is that they are yet to really formulate practical, achievable goals vis a vis their recovery. Allowing them to figure out their own path and giving them the time and support to do this, and keeping them alive during the process (i.e. away from the dope scene) is what is important for them in specific.


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## Vcj08

No, I would rather not use a doctor because I live in a small town and actually go to church with my GP and am extremely embarrassed about the whole situation. I took last week off of work to detox so I started work Monday (after no sleep sunday night either) and actually had a really good day. On top of that, I'm guessing from the hard work, I ended up getting about 4 hours of unaided sleep throughout the night. It was very broken up, but I never had to leave the bedroom. Today was even better than Monday and I actually nodded off watching TV for 30 mins with all the kids in the room. I'm thinking I'm on the downhill side of the mountain now and feeling good. Its funny how a fistful hours of sleep in 9 days has got me so optimistic. Thanks for the support and suggestions, the blue light community is awesome. Hopefully I have the willpower to never have to go through this ever again. I really want to stop for good this time, I've made up my mind.


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## Jabberwocky

I'm sorry to hear about the situation with your doctors, but I'm super glad to hear you were able to get some rest and are feeling better. It is indeed quite amazing what a few good hours of rest can do for our mood! So very necessary.

If you end up continuing to struggle with this substance use stuff moving forward, I'd definitely get a referral or find a psychiatrist to work with so you can get more help with what you're going through. It's really hard to manage this condition without professional medical support for many, many people (if not most), however I hear you about the issue with confidentiality, small town doctors and stigma and whatnot. 

That is the worst part about all this a lot of the time, having to hide it from those we really should be able to rely upon for support getting through it (such as your GP). But life ain't perfect, that is for sure. 

Things are better than they were ten, twenty, thirty years ago, but we have far more to go in terms of moving addiction medicine into the 21st century than what has already been accomplished (it's sad that the treatment has really progressed much since the turn of the 20th century). Maybe as more folks outside the ghetto continue to die from overdoses and a more accurate social awareness of substance use disorder continues to develop culturally, and especially once drug use is decriminalized in the states (I try to be optimistic about this), things will start improving at a slightly faster rate. 

But until then I don't have my hopes up. Sorry for the mini rant...


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## Erinben0103

After reading this thread I'm still confused about lopermine. Will taking 6 mg actually stop my w/d outright? I am taking everything else I can get my hands on, on the list including clondine (easy to get), hydroxyzine, kratom anything that I can get my hands on really and no I don't care about cross addiction at all I'll keep doing what I'm addicted to as long as the supply doesn't run out. I can't even imagine caring about withdrawals from Kratom or anything like that. Just wanted to comment one of my favorite threads spent a lot of time lurking, new poster.


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## Jabberwocky

You're probably going to get the most out of the kratom. 

With loperamide, it depends what you're using it for and how large your habit was. 6mg of loperamide will probably help resolve some GI issues like cramping and diarrhea, but for larger habits it takes significantly more to do so (20mg+). Enough loperamide will resolve all symptoms, but that can require very high dosing (again, it all depends the size of your habit) of 60-80mg+. That is risky to do for any length of time because of, at the least, cardiotoxic side effects of high dose loperamide. 

Antihistamines like hydroxyzine can make RLS worse, though it you're taking kratom I imagine that isn't as much an issue. Clonidine will be the most useful other than the kratom and loperamide. 

Try and look into getting gabapentin. That is an absolutely fantastic medication for acute withdrawal (as well as other things). Between clonidine, gabapentin and loperamide you can essentially resolve all major symptoms of acute withdrawal except for those with the most severe of habits. 

What was your habit like before you stopped using opioids? How long has it been?


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## Erinben0103

*What was your habit like before you stopped using opioids? How long has it been?*

My habit is erratic sometimes will be off them completely, sometimes Vicodin, sometimes completely on heroin which was what I was doing. The supply ran out or I never would have stopped, I had some Vicodin come up but limited. I have been off since about Saturday, I tried finding little residues but I don't think I'm getting anything except dust and debris. It's like 4 days of this how much longer? I'm guessing supply will come back before I can break this I'm just in w/d hell.


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## Jabberwocky

Ah, see you do have access to kratom (do you can ignore my question about his in that other thread). I'd stick with that and get some clonidine and Gabapentin as you intend. Those three substances should get you through the acute withdrawal and any lingering symptoms comfortably enough. 

With cessation of use acute withdrawal takes about a week for short acting opioids, so assuming there wasn't something crazy life methadone in your hillbilly heroin you should be feeling a lot better around day seven. 

Generally folks say say day three or four is the hardest and then it gets easier. Expect some minor symptoms, minor by comparison to those during acute withdrawal, to continue for a while after you get past week one (minor insomnia, RLS, mood fluxuations, malaise and/or GI issues - again they will be much, much less significant than there were during the acute withdrawal, but they are annoying when they linger).


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## Poppy38

This is an amazing post and I've gotten clean once before so I'm aware of the vitamins and I actually have some Valium to help me but just to introduce myself I am a thirty-six-year-old professional with a secret 60 mg per day opiate habit. The hardest time for me is when I get out of bed bed I am a mom and I love to take care of my children and in my mind somehow the thought of taking a pill and baking an Immaculate desert is so enticing to me but none the less I want to quit I read these threads and I laugh at my own 60 mg per day habit. I'm not a street user so I won't buy them off the street my mother has cancer and I pick up her pills from the pharmacy and it's there where I grabbed my monthly Supply in a handful. I've started to experience anxiety which I never had before and I think it's from long term use of Oxycodone when I go to sleep at night I have an irregular heartbeat and I experience chest pain on the left side of my chest I don't know if I freak myself out or if I'm actually giving myself heart problems so if anyone knows anything relative between oxycodone and heart problems I'd appreciate some feedback then the last I want to get clean and I'm just looking for support here somewhere where I can check in because I spend my DayZ hiding it from everyone else for the last year I've been pretending to taper but I never do. I have 4 20 mg hydrochloride pills of Oxycodone left my goal is to take one a day for the next 4 days and never touch them again. Wish me luck


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## squidhead

Best of luck. You can do it. Just never give in.
Today I celebrate 8 months clean from a 100 mgs of methadone daily for 17 yrs. Prescribed.
Methadone withdrawal's the worst. Yours should be shorter than the 2 wks I was sick. I just started feeling like I was 'back' after about 6 months clean.
You'll be just fine.


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## the last dose

squidhead said:


> Best of luck. You can do it. Just never give in.
> Today I celebrate 8 months clean from a 100 mgs of methadone daily for 17 yrs. Prescribed.
> Methadone withdrawal's the worst. Yours should be shorter than the 2 wks I was sick. I just started feeling like I was 'back' after about 6 months clean.
> You'll be just fine.




Im with squidhead may 25 was 6 months clean for me from a much higher doses oxy addiction anything is possible its up to you!.


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## Megamaniac

Hi all. 
I'm currently on day 7 wo any opiates. 
I am simply saying what worked for me. I am definitely not a Dr. I used gabapentin and Xanax. If i had my choice I would have used the gabapentin  with temazapam. Not sure about that sp. I have a hard time sleeping and a ridiculous amount of "rls" but it's all over my body.  The temazapam has the punch that knocks me out for 8 hrs. at least. The gabapentin, for me, helps tremendously. I have made it 5 days several months ago and then psyched myself out and messed around "just a little bit longer". 
This time I did things a little different. I told a friend. I was up to 1.5 g of h a day. Constantly running back and forth. It was taking all my time and money.  
I know that I still have a lot of work to do but I'm super happy to have made it the first solid week. Which, for me, is the hardest and scariest part. I had to make up my mind and really commit. 
I hope this helps someone


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## simco

Megamaniac said:


> Hi all.
> I'm currently on day 7 wo any opiates.
> I am simply saying what worked for me. I am definitely not a Dr. I used gabapentin and Xanax. If i had my choice I would have used the gabapentin  with temazapam. Not sure about that sp. I have a hard time sleeping and a ridiculous amount of "rls" but it's all over my body.  The temazapam has the punch that knocks me out for 8 hrs. at least. The gabapentin, for me, helps tremendously. I have made it 5 days several months ago and then psyched myself out and messed around "just a little bit longer".
> This time I did things a little different. I told a friend. I was up to 1.5 g of h a day. Constantly running back and forth. It was taking all my time and money.
> I know that I still have a lot of work to do but I'm super happy to have made it the first solid week. Which, for me, is the hardest and scariest part. I had to make up my mind and really commit.
> I hope this helps someone



You're doing great; a week is huge...the worst of the acute withdrawal symptoms should start to back off soon, if they haven't already.  

As for the scary part, it's a cliche, but try to remember the old saying, "one day at a time."  Staring down the barrel of a long recovery is scary indeed.  But breaking it down into smaller goals (like making till tonight without using) can take some of that pressure off.

Sim


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## ~QuirKyNai~

Best things ive used in withdrawl
Kratom,phenibut,gabapentin or lyrica,benzos,dxm.
But as for suboxone withdrawl...its a much different long drawn out withdrawl..and for this i recomend gabapentin. Or lyrica which ia much stronger version...kratom (good quality)Phenibut is great to use and is similar to gabapentin for me...but it is important that you do not use phenibut multiple days in a row as the withdrawals from thay are unpleasant. .although they do go away prety quick i believe..
DXM...this is probably a really good medication to use during withdrawl as is provides energy and takes a way a good amount of withdrawl symptoms..but do nit go over 120mg..i find that a goid dose is 90mg..also DXM combined woth a benzo works very well..
If you can acquire all these i suggest to rotate differeny regimens and possible combos so as not to get ur body dependant on one specific medication


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## Aga85

Hi everyone. Im not addicted to opioids right now but I was. What saved me was Kratom??thats what Ive thought at first. I managed to come off xanax, valium and codeine. Never used it longer than for few months as I was scared. I suffer with anxiety. Thought kratom was better sollution than taking xanax every day and now I have a problem with quitting kratom. Been using it for 4 months, every day 4g dose twice a day. How can I come off it to avoid withdrawl? Or what to do to make them more "friendly". Dont want to take sick note for work. Thank you for replies guys  ??


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## cj

Aga85 said:


> Hi everyone. Im not addicted to opioids right now but I was. What saved me was Kratom??thats what Ive thought at first. I managed to come off xanax, valium and codeine. Never used it longer than for few months as I was scared. I suffer with anxiety. Thought kratom was better sollution than taking xanax every day and now I have a problem with quitting kratom. Been using it for 4 months, every day 4g dose twice a day. How can I come off it to avoid withdrawl? Or what to do to make them more "friendly". Dont want to take sick note for work. Thank you for replies guys  ??



You can't avoid withdrawal but you can treat the symptoms. A combo of Clonidine, gabapentin, Lyrica, ibprofin, and a muscle relaxer can be used to help. Some people would suggest a benzo but since you are coming off them I wouldn't go there. Kratom withdrawal should be less intense then heroin or full agonist opiods so I think you can get through. You can also taper before hand to further minimize symptoms


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## Aga85

So should I taper ? Will it help with withdrawls and make them more endurable ? Im so scared of withdrawl. Been thru codeine withdrawl and mirtazapine when doc took me off it cold turkey. Horrible. Dont have a strenght do go thru all of it again. How long is it gonna last for ? Will all the symptoms of withdrawl just go away at some point? Paranoia, anxiety, depression, fatigue ?


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## Aga85

Its funny how we feel when in withdrawl, that we are going to stay like this forever, and it will never get better. This feeling of going crazy and losing control. Hate this feeling.


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## cj

Tapering will help the severity of withdrawal so yes if you can taper you should. The withdrawal will last around 5 days with symptoms peaking on day 3 then gradually decreasing in intensity after that. You should feel back to normal by day 7.


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## Jabberwocky

Aga85 said:


> Its funny how we feel when in withdrawl, that we are going to stay like this forever, and it will never get better. This feeling of going crazy and losing control. Hate this feeling.



And it’s good to keep in mind, as cj mentioned, that your kratom withdrawal should be significantly less uncomfortable than something like coming off codeine. With kratom the symptoms are primarily psychological in nature, with restlessness and craving being the major challenges (and perhaps some insomnia). But a lot of the physical symptoms like nausea, hot/cold flashes and violent diarrhea common to opioid withdrawal won’t really be present with kratom withdrawal. 

How much kratom are you taking these days?


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## Aga85

Hi , ive been taking 4g of kratom in the morning and 6hrs later have another 4g. Twice a day. Im just scared of anxiety coming back cause kratom helped me a lot with it. Managed to come off xanax and now I only take it when i really need to. Yesterday I had only 6g , and today 6g as well. Should I spread it and still take it twice a day. Like 3g in the morning and in 6hrs another 3g. And next day go down to 2g ?


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## LopLover

Aga85 said:


> Hi , ive been taking 4g of kratom in the morning and 6hrs later have another 4g. Twice a day. Im just scared of anxiety coming back cause kratom helped me a lot with it. Managed to come off xanax and now I only take it when i really need to. Yesterday I had only 6g , and today 6g as well. Should I spread it and still take it twice a day. Like 3g in the morning and in 6hrs another 3g. And next day go down to 2g ?



Just my opinion here, but your dose doesn't seem to be that high. And if you've only used it for four months, with codeine and prescription drugs before that, you probably can taper pretty quickly. What I always do, when I quit kratom (which is usually to go back on Suboxone or some other opiate) is to reduce the size of the usual dose and keep taking it at the same times, at least at first. Then, when I've tapered the dose into about 1/4 of the original I start spreading the doses out. Usually if I'm taking it 3-4 times daily I'll cut one of those doses out, then the next day or the third, cut another out until I'm taking it once in the morning and once in the evening. Use your comfort meds with it--if you have a sleeper of some kind, you can next skip the night dose, and if your problem is getting out of bed, that might be the time to take a comfort med. The moderators' advice is right on, especially about avoiding benzos if at all possible. I've used them and created an entirely new addiction that was even harder to quit. Best of luck--it sounds like you know what you're doing!

I have a question for the mods or anyone who can answer it: Because I'm planning on re-starting Suboxone right away, which should make actually tapering the rest of the kratom habit unnecessary. The reasons I want to quit for a day or two before I see the Sub doctor are first, since I'm telling him that I'm still in withdrawals, it isn't going to hurt for me to look like I'm still pretty sick. I already have to admit that I ran out way early by taking them too fast. Since I'm also admitting that I don't want to finish the taper but stay on them anyway, I'm going to admit--it is the truth--that this dose is too low to keep me from being sick. When it was about double this, like .25 every day, instead or every other day, or .5 every other day, I think that kept me from being in withdrawals all the time. Whatever it takes, I want to be comfortable. Like I said, it's not going to be that long anyway, and I shouldn't have to give up my quality of life. The question I have--and I've never heard it addresses: With kratom is there a possibility of precipitated withdrawal if I take the kratom until I get the Sub? If so, how long should I wait between the two? When I was in the hospital they switched me to methadone because they were too damn cheap to pay for my Suboxone. Which was fine, as the methadone kept me well and out of pain. But when I switched back, I didn't wait long enough and threw myself into precipitated withdrawal--I never ever want to do that again! It was the worst experience of my life; I had more methadone and Suboxone, but knew if I took either one it would just make it worse. And I didn't have any benzos or even Ambien to knock me out--I just had to suffer for about 12 hours until the Sub started working. So, any info would be great!


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## Jabberwocky

I haven't heard of anyone having issues with precipitated withdrawal when transitioning from kratom to buprenorphine/naloxone. It's always good to wait a day or more if you can stand it before inducting on the buprenorphine, as it will allow the medication to work a little more effectively (more relief). But even if you just wait 12hrs, you'll probably be fine. 

That said, I'd really suggest you wait the normal day before starting the buprenorphine. You can use gabapentin, benzos, tramadol or whatever that doesn't create precipitated withdrawal to make it through that 24hrs. 

With your doctor, really emphasize how you don't feel like you will be able to manage if you continue tapering or try to get off buprenorphine for good. Emphasize that you are concerned about relapsing, struggling with cravings, and are afraid discontinuing the buprenorphine will lead you back into active addiction.

It's good to be honest with your doctor, I just hope they're well informed, professional and compassionate. Especially in the recovery industry, doctors like that are hard to find.

When transitioning from methadone to buprenorphine, you want to wait between 3-5 days before inducting on buprenorphine (depends on the size of the methadone habit). During those days you can take a shorter acting opioid like codeine or hydrocodone to stay well. Then just wait 24hrs between you last dose of short acting opioid to transition to buprenorphine.


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## Nanneelix

How much Gabapentin do I need to take per day for help with withdrawal? I have 600 mg tablets, I was taking 100 mg of oxycodone. I also have loperimide,  tizanadine,  Zoloft, Meloxicam, Baclofen.  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  I'm completely out of my DOC, so in withdrawal now,  day 1. I had a small piece of Suboxone that I took this morning which has helped some today.  But that is gone now! TIA ?


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## KraziKat

I am starting to really and truly believe that CBD-rich cannabis products are the key to ending my opiate addiction.  Stay tuned.


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## Emmagale

A drug is a drug is a drug. Just let it all come out because that?s the toxins in your body. They need to leave. The faster they do the better you are. Supplement a drug for a drug? Are you kidding me? 
Tons of water, Boost or Ensure if you can?t eat and hang in there. What?s a little shit compared to?


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## Nanneelix

Ok, here is the scoop on me! I took my last oxycodone last Saturday.  Sunday  I had a little piece of  Suboxone that I took. Then I was out of any kind of drug that I could take to help with withdrawals.  I do have a great supply of gabapentin,  tizanadine, meloxicam, Baclofen. I also take Zoloft, I take quite a few vitamins everyday also...  Folic Acid, B12, B6, Biotin, Vit C, vitamin D, magnesium and potassium. The first 5 days were not too bad.  But today I'm in tons of pain , and I  have no energy!!! Why after 5 days would I start feeling that drain of energy?? Also does anyone know if the meds I have can help me,  and tell me how I should take them for the most Benefit? Please help me,  I need some help badly!!
Thanks Nancy


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## FighingItAGAIN

*Hyoscyamine for stomach and sweating durin w/ds?*

Was wondering if anyone had experience or insight as to if hyoscyamine sulf .125 mg can be helpful in the sweating, stomach issues, running eyes or any other symptoms from withdrawl. I have a script and am very curious, seems to be not too much info I can find on it being used for this purpose. 

I?m new here, please forgive me if I?m doing this wrong. I?ll learn my way around this forum soon lol. 

Thank you to anyone who can offer any info.


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## Iceman1216

This is a great Post!!
just a quick Bump, after reading it all over two days 
thanks


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