# A serious thread about online poker



## Fjones

Hello gaming lounge.  

I am a veteran online poker player with some solid results over the years.  There is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there about online poker.  

I am making this post to answer any questions or have any discussions that any Bluelighters might have about online poker.  

Serious posts only please, such as questions about bankroll, strategy, mental approach, the mathematics involved, game selection, etc.  

Bluelight has been helpful to me and I would like to return the favor by sharing knowledge of something I am good at.


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## nofxrhcp

what is the best site to play on with real $ and not get screwed.  I heard of some sites where hackers can see everyone's cards.


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## Infinite Jest

^
You're probably thinking of Absolute, where one guy who used to work there found a bug that let him see cards.

I play there all the time, and I've never seen a problem. I'm a winning player there (not much, but I'm grinding my way up). I like it. Pokerstars is good because it has a lot more players, and a wider variety of games (but at the same time, it can have almost too many players, if you want to play a tourney with 100-300 people, it's not so good).


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## Fjones

I would recommend pokerstars or Full Tilt.  I play on Full tilt.  You will not get screwed.  There have been no cheating scandals as far as I know.  Getting money in and out can be a bit challenging because of the US government's crazed anti-poker war.  If you are not in the US, you have nothing to worry about.


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## Bedhead

Whats the best way to build your bankroll? Ring games? Small S N Gs? Small buy-in (like $1-5) tourneys? 

Also, I've been told that .01/.02 ring games contain lots of scrubs, while .05/.10 and higher contain more 'serious' players. This seems only natural... but I'm going to make my first deposit into Pstars ($25 -- will be $50 w/ the bonus code though) soon, and want to know where to start. 

Absolute has $50 free rolls daily, which isn't bad, if you're looking for a site with frequent free rolls. I won $0.52 the other day when I finished 14th. It only took 4.5hrs (lol), but it's the first free roll where I've actually won anything, so I'm pretty happy. And yeah it's only $0.52, but it puts ramen on the table.%)


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## Infinite Jest

Bodog used to have good free rolls. Pokerstars is good for low stake tourneys (like $0.10). 

Your bonus will only kick in once you've played a certain number of hands/tourneys, at a certain value (basically, forget about getting it if you're playing low stakes).

Serious players? Depends who you ask. Go on the Card Player forums, they'll tell you there are no serious players at $1/2. For me, 0.05/0.10 is fine (I haven't played higher, i mainly play tourneys). Start as low as possible (especially with $25. If you buy in with the max, which you should, then even at a 0.05/0.10 table, you've got 80% of your bankroll in play!).


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## Fjones

The best way to build a roll is to use proper bankroll management.   If you are playing single table tournaments, have at least 100 buy-ins.  If playing ring games, have at least 30 buy-ins.  If you are playing large multi-table tournaments, well, good luck.  Those are a crapshoot.  You can play thousands of those without getting into the "long run." 

The best option is the one you like best.  I find ring games excruciating, so I play SNGs and dabble in the large Multis.  

And, uh, you aren't going to find any "Serious" players at nickel dime.  It's nickel dime!!  Maybe I am not sure what you mean by "serious" players.  

Freerolls are not a good way to build a bankroll.  They take too much time for too little reward.  

Have reasonable goals for how soon you expect to double your money.  Trying to win too much too fast results in reckless and risky play that doesn't usually pay off.


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## Lysis

What is the best way to learn how to play?


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## Fjones

Read some poker books, talk to successful players, browse online forums, and of course, by playing.  

Most sites have very small stakes games that can provide "cheap lessons."  I do not advise learning by playing play-money games, as no one takes it seriously and you will do yourself more harm than good.  

David Sklansky has written several good introductory books ( As well as some advanced ones).   Brunson's Super System and Super System 2 have some good sections on most forms of poker.  

Most people don't understand what poker is really about and thus they do poorly. 

What level are you at right now?  Do you have any knowledge or experience?


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## Bedhead

Fjones, what's your personal playing style? Aggressive? Loose? I realize your playing style may change depending on who the players are and where you are in the tourney, but 'in general', how do you play? Whats been most successful for you? 

The only way I got deep in that free roll was that towards the latter half of the tourney I'd only play monster hands aggressively or try and see a flop (relatively cheaply) if I had a low pocket pair and was in position, and if I hit trips it was easy to trap them.


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## johanneschimpo

I've found that below $.50/$1 blinds or $10-20 for a sit-n-go are about the levels (IME, at least) are the ones where seriousness starts to come into play. I mostly play sit-no-go's and the occasional ring game, but I don't play multi-table tourneys (I can't stand a tourney lasting longer than 30min-1hour).


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## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Fjones, what's your personal playing style? Aggressive? Loose? I realize your playing style may change depending on who the players are and where you are in the tourney, but 'in general', how do you play? Whats been most successful for you?
> 
> The only way I got deep in that free roll was that towards the latter half of the tourney I'd only play monster hands aggressively or try and see a flop (relatively cheaply) if I had a low pocket pair and was in position, and if I hit trips it was easy to trap them.



I play tight early on, and then I loosen it up as the tournament progresses.  The chips are far more valuable later on than early.  In either case, it is important to be aggressive.  Whether you are playing tight or loose, you should be playing aggressively.  

Opponents aren't goign to just hand you a pot if you check and call constantly.  If you let them have cheap cards and cheap showdowns, they will win pots you might otherwise take with aggressive play.  

One can only survive so many all-ins in a tournament, so another goal should be to pick your spots and pick up chips without showdowns whenever possible.


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## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> The only way I got deep in that free roll was that towards the latter half of the tourney I'd only play monster hands aggressively or try and see a flop (relatively cheaply) if I had a low pocket pair and was in position, and if I hit trips it was easy to trap them.



This is not a winning strategy. limping in with hands is generally a bad idea, especially from position.  Also, playing small pocket pairs "no set no bet" is not a good overall strategy.


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## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> This is not a winning strategy. limping in with hands is generally a bad idea, especially from position.  Also, playing small pocket pairs "no set no bet" is not a good overall strategy.



So how do you play pocket pairs like 66/77/88 then? Small re-raise if you have good position? What about UTG? Fold? 

My only fear w/ raising w/ say 77/88 is that someone calls w/ KJ or similar and the flop comes 2 4 K. At that point, if he bets, you pretty much have to fold, right?


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## Fjones

Early on in the tournament, from early position, I might just fold those.  What are you hoping happens if you play it?  You limp in, no one raises, and you get a miracle flop?  And than also someone has enough of the flop to pay you off?  How often does that happen?  If you raise, you might get reraised, which you cannot tolerate, or, someone calls and you are out of position in a raised pot with a hand that doesn't play well after the flop.  

In position, raise it or fold it.  Again, what are you hoping to accomplish by limping in?  Now you have no idea what the blinds have, and you have to play against multiple people.  Pots are easier to win against small fields.  If you get static after the flop in a raise pot with a king on it you probably have to fold.  

If you get a clean flop, you do not necessarily have to bet all three streets.  If you constantly bet three streets with one pair or less, you are going to chase a lot of the hands you beat, but get killed by the ones that beat you.  That is a negative EV approach.  Sometimes you can get value from weaker hands by checking the flop or turn.  Now you can ensure a showdown at the river for one bet.  

So, you must be selectively aggressive, but also engage in pot control with modest holdings.


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## Fjones

Just to add to that some more -- If you constantly mess around with small pocket pairs in the early stages, you are going to put yourself in a lot of difficult spots.  Online poker games generally have fast blind levels and small starting stacks relative to the blinds.  You cannot afford to be constantly losing 100 chips here and there without showdowns.   But that is exactly what will happen.  

If you are playing a higher buy-in tournament, you might get 3000 chips with blinds 10 - 20 and 12 minute levels.  In this case, you can dabble a bit more.  But with 6 minute levels and blinds 15 - 30 and 1500 chips, you cannot afford to lose any chips.  You will be shortstacked before you know it and at the mercy of the cards as you try to push all in to pick up blinds or double up.


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## alasdairm

i find the first things i learned which took me from a beginner online player to being comfortable in the casino is that there are no hard and fast rules about how to play certain hands, etc.

being able to adapt to prevailing table conditions is, for me, the most important aspect of a player's game. i tend to view advice which begins "_you should always..._" pretty dimly.

alasdair


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## Fjones

alasdairm said:


> i find the first things i learned which took me from a beginner online player to being comfortable in the casino is that there are no hard and fast rules about how to play certain hands, etc.
> 
> being able to adapt to prevailing table conditions is, for me, the most important aspect of a player's game. i tend to view advice which begins "_you should always..._" pretty dimly.
> 
> alasdair



Really?  You are going to adapt to a table in a small stakes, fast-blinds short stack online poker tournament?  

No.  The way to play those is with hard and fast rules.  

What you described sounds great for live ring game poker, but not great for low stakes online tournaments.


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## alasdairm

Fjones said:


> No.  The way to play those is with hard and fast rules.


yes! 

we'll agree to disagree.

if you can't (or won't) adapt your play, i think that limits your available tools. 90% of the games i play are small-stakes online tournaments. sure, i'll generally play certain starting hands in certain ways. sure, position and stack size are as important  as always but i can't imagine limiting my options because i've told myself "_you have to do this..._".

alasdair


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## Bedhead

How do you play against super-aggressive players (say you're into the middle/later half a tourney blinds 200/400 50 ante) who almost always re-raise you pre-flo? If I miss the flop w/ A 10 suited I feel like I have no choice but to fold if they put out a little less than 1/2 pot bet. Meanwhile the blinds/antes are eating away at my short chip stack. 

Only call/raise w/ decent hands?

The few times I won I had top pair top kicker on the flop and re-raised all in, and he folded. Thoughts? Am I approaching this situation incorrectly? I find myself a little confused and don't know exactly what to do when I'm at a table w/ a few super-aggressive players. 

Then he finally knocked me out when he called my all-in raise w/ a jack high flush draw, which he hit on the turn. Which, if my all-in re-raise is a little more than 1/2 the pot, doesn't make sense math mathematically, right? 6k in pot, 3.5k re-raise from me. That's like 3:1 pot odds for him to call. (think I got that right...) 

Maybe this is just the agony you suffer from playing free roll tourneys...


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## alasdairm

Bedhead said:


> Maybe this is just the agony you suffer from playing free roll tourneys...


people in freerolls rarely play as they would when there's money on the line. if there's no cost to call, why not?

generally speaking, i think that playing freerolls is only really practice for the accidental complexity of poker. if you want to concentrate on the essential complexity of the game itself, you need to buy-in, in my opinion.

alasdair


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## Fjones

alasdairm said:


> yes!
> 
> we'll agree to disagree.
> 
> if you can't (or won't) adapt your play, i think that limits your available tools. 90% of the games i play are small-stakes online tournaments. sure, i'll generally play certain starting hands in certain ways. sure, position and stack size are as important  as always but i can't imagine limiting my options because i've told myself "_you have to do this..._".
> 
> alasdair



I do not agree to disagree, because I think we actually agree.  

Yes, there are times when one must adapt to the table conditions, obviously.  When the blinds get to a point where they actually mean something, one must adapt to how tight or loose the table is, how tight and loose specific players are, what the average stack is, what your stack is relative to the blinds, and how many people are left vs. how many people pay.  

I didn't make $30,000 + in my poker career by NOT understanding that.  I certainly haven't limited my options in any way.  When the time comes, I'll make a move with any two cards.  I have pushed all in pre flop with 2 7 offsuit with $1000 + dollars at stake (final three people of a large multi table tournament).  

That wasn't the point I was making.  My point was that in the early stages (usually the first three to four blind levels, you simply do not have enough information to adapt to anything.  There is no situation in the first three blind levels that warrants playing AT  or pocket twos from early position.  

People must learn ABC poker, which involves a hard set of rules, and master that, before they start getting fancy with "plays" and "moves" and such.  And one must know ABC poker in order to adapt it to the changing table conditions.  

People watch too much TV and think poker is all about moves and fancy elaborate plays.  It isn't.  The world's best poker players are playing ABC poker 90% of the time or more.


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## alasdairm

i almost agree with you but...





Fjones said:


> There is no situation in the first three blind levels that warrants playing AT  or pocket twos from early position.


once in a while i will do just that. if i make the hand pay, sometimes i'll get a "_i can't believe you played that..._" which suits me just fine. if we all played by the book, did everything we are supposed to do all the time, poker would be pretty boring to me.

alasdair


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## Fjones

alasdairm said:


> i almost agree with you but...once in a while i will do just that. if i make the hand pay, sometimes i'll get a "_i can't believe you played that..._" which suits me just fine. if we all played by the book, did everything we are supposed to do all the time, poker would be pretty boring to me.
> 
> alasdair



winning poker is boring.  If poker is exciting for you, you are probably playing it wrong.  

I am not talking about what it FUN or what is enjoyable, I am talking about what is profitable and + EV.  In the early stages of a tournament, AT or 22 in EP is a negative EV hand.  Just because it pays off occasionally and someone says, "I cannot believe you did that," does not make it a profitable play.  

If you want to raise from late position with a 3 9 offsuit to steal the blinds and then you hit two pair and crack KK and someone says, "I cannot believe you did that," that's different.  The play might have been + EV because you were trying to execute a late position blind steal and hoping to win the hand with a bet after the flop if you were called.  

There is a difference.  

Again, the original question wasn't "How can I make poker fun," it was "How can I play ____ profitably."


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## alasdairm

for me, playing poker profitably and having fun are not mutually exclusive.

alasdair


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## Bedhead

alasdairm said:


> for me, playing poker profitably and having fun are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> alasdair



Taking down a big pot is always fun.


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## Fjones

alasdairm said:


> for me, playing poker profitably and having fun are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> alasdair



No, but they don't completely overlap either.  There is a difference between "mixing it up" and making bad plays.  

If you are playing ace 8 suited under the gun in a full table durign the first two blind levels of a tournament, you are costing yourself profit, regardless of how much fun you might have by playing the hand.  

If you are good enough to play a bad hand like that profitably (in that specific situation), then you should be playing the highest stakes games and making millions of dollars.


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## Fjones

alasdairm said:


> people in freerolls rarely play as they would when there's money on the line. if there's no cost to call, why not?
> 
> generally speaking, i think that playing freerolls is only really practice for the accidental complexity of poker. if you want to concentrate on the essential complexity of the game itself, you need to buy-in, in my opinion.
> 
> alasdair



I agree with this 100%.


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## Cyc

I'm gonna agree that people who are successful at online poker play hard, fast rules and probably aren't having much fun. In fact, they rely on the recreational types to turn a profit.

I went to an online poker seminar this summer and learned a few things. Mainly, that I'm not patient enough to hack it. 

Couple questions for you though, Fjones since you're fielding them.

How many tables do you normally play at once?

What do you look for in terms of "tells" in online poker?


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## Yippee Skippy

Hope OP doesn't mind me addressing a couple of these...


Bedhead said:


> How do you play against super-aggressive players (say you're into the middle/later half a tourney blinds 200/400 50 ante) who almost always re-raise you pre-flo? If I miss the flop w/ A 10 suited I feel like I have no choice but to fold if they put out a little less than 1/2 pot bet. Meanwhile the blinds/antes are eating away at my short chip stack.
> 
> Only call/raise w/ decent hands?


this is a general rule of thumb that will serve you well in most situations, not just against an aggro player:  *raise more than call, fold more than raise.
*
In the situation you mention, a lot depends on your chip stacks.  If you have 10bb's or less, you shouldn't just be raising, you should be raising all-in.  That solves the issue of calling a reraise and then check-folding a whiffed flop.

If you have a comfortable stack and can afford to put in a "standard" raise but you know that your villain is always going to reraise you then you've got to tighten up your raising range.  ATs probably isn't strong enough when you don't have position at the table.  You can assume they are reraising light if they do it all the time though, so I would pretty much open-raise like TT+ and AQo-AKs then plan to just shove over a reraise pretty much all the time.


Kyk said:


> What do you look for in terms of "tells" in online poker?


tells in online poker are generally determined using statistics such as VPIP (Voluntarily Put $ In Pot) PFR % (Pre-Flop Raise percentage) and PFA (post-flop aggression).  There are literally dozens of stats which can be tracked using PokerTracker or Hold 'Em Manager.  

I look for patterns in play as well.  For instance, I noticed some player put in big overbets on the river when he had nothing and made a note about it.  Then, one time when I was in a pot against him, I called one of those bets with something like bottom (or right next to it) pair and took a good pot.  The bluffer called me an idiot and left, while some other players said "great call" or whatever.  

My point is, most people tend to make the same mistakes over and over.  When you see them, put it in their player notes and you'll know what to look for.


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## Bedhead

Do you guys ever go on tilt? Or maybe a more appropriate question would be how often would you say you go on tilt? 

Since I just started playing with real $ I find myself getting pissed off more when I lose to garbage, and then I make poor decisions in the next hand. I've set a cut off point where if I get there, I make myself quit... need to work on my patience and discipline. 

^Keeping notes is a good strategy. I like how Pokerstars has a notes tab in the bottom left. Makes it very easy to type things in there. Keep track of how your opponents play.


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## Vaportrails

How do you play poker sober?

I find I have to get messed up to find it entertaining, and then I play like an idiot.


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## Fjones

Kyk said:


> I'm gonna agree that people who are successful at online poker play hard, fast rules and probably aren't having much fun. In fact, they rely on the recreational types to turn a profit.
> 
> I went to an online poker seminar this summer and learned a few things. Mainly, that I'm not patient enough to hack it.
> 
> Couple questions for you though, Fjones since you're fielding them.
> 
> How many tables do you normally play at once?
> 
> What do you look for in terms of "tells" in online poker?



I play 6 to 8 tables at once, though I prefer 6.  Any more than that and I find it too difficult to make snacks or use the bathroom during a session (I like to play 6 - 8 hour sessions if possible).  

As far as tells go -- I don't rely on tells.  I am playing 6 tables, so there is no way to pay attention to tells.  The only possible tell is the amount of time someone takes to do something, and this is not reliable.  I time down for any number of reasons sometimes that have nothing to do with that actual hand.  I am sure others do the same.  

There is actually one exception -- If it is obvious that someone has the check/fold button clicked, I will likely bet any two or any hand.  It is VERY rare that soemone clicks that button as a fake with a big hand.  It has only happened to me once, and I have played somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 hands.


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## Fjones

Yippee Skippy said:


> Hope OP doesn't mind me addressing a couple of these...
> 
> this is a general rule of thumb that will serve you well in most situations, not just against an aggro player:  *raise more than call, fold more than raise.
> *
> In the situation you mention, a lot depends on your chip stacks.  If you have 10bb's or less, you shouldn't just be raising, you should be raising all-in.  That solves the issue of calling a reraise and then check-folding a whiffed flop.
> 
> If you have a comfortable stack and can afford to put in a "standard" raise but you know that your villain is always going to reraise you then you've got to tighten up your raising range.  ATs probably isn't strong enough when you don't have position at the table.  You can assume they are reraising light if they do it all the time though, so I would pretty much open-raise like TT+ and AQo-AKs then plan to just shove over a reraise pretty much all the time.
> 
> tells in online poker are generally determined using statistics such as VPIP (Voluntarily Put $ In Pot) PFR % (Pre-Flop Raise percentage) and PFA (post-flop aggression).  There are literally dozens of stats which can be tracked using PokerTracker or Hold 'Em Manager.
> 
> I look for patterns in play as well.  For instance, I noticed some player put in big overbets on the river when he had nothing and made a note about it.  Then, one time when I was in a pot against him, I called one of those bets with something like bottom (or right next to it) pair and took a good pot.  The bluffer called me an idiot and left, while some other players said "great call" or whatever.
> 
> My point is, most people tend to make the same mistakes over and over.  When you see them, put it in their player notes and you'll know what to look for.



My apologies, I must have missed bedhead's post somehow.  I agree 100% with what yippeeskippee said about the aggro player and hands like AT.  Regarding the rest, I agree with that also, though I wouldn't call those "tells."  The stats like VPIP and such are stats and data, which I consider to be different from "tells."  The three stats he mentioned are very important, and are often used as the standard "slash" stats to evaluate players.  

Your VPIP and PFR should be VERY close together, otherwise it means you are limping in too much and/or calling other people's raises too much.  For a player playing 6 seated cash games, good slash stats might be 19/17/4 or something like that.  The VPIP / PFR of 19/17 shows that he isn't playing too many hands but also not too few, and when he plays, he is raising.  The aggression factor of 4 shows that he is aggressive post flop.  This is a player you want to avoid.  He is probably very good.  The new version of poker tracker comes with a HUD overlay (HUD = Heads up Display) which can overlay the stats of your choosing on the player's avatar at the table. 

Regarding the patterns mentioned, I agree that those are useful also, but I file that under the category of "tendencies," not "tells."  Most certainly, if you see a player doing the same stupid things, you should take advantage of that.  

One must always keep in mind though, just because a player is a fish with bad slash stats, or a bad OPR or sharkscope, doesn't mean he doesn't have a hand!  Fish get big hands too.  

OPR = www.officialpokerrankings.com  a great free site that tracks all kinds of data about all tournaments played on most of the important sites.  

Sharkscope = www.sharkscope.com , another great site.


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## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Do you guys ever go on tilt? Or maybe a more appropriate question would be how often would you say you go on tilt?
> 
> Since I just started playing with real $ I find myself getting pissed off more when I lose to garbage, and then I make poor decisions in the next hand. I've set a cut off point where if I get there, I make myself quit... need to work on my patience and discipline.
> 
> ^Keeping notes is a good strategy. I like how Pokerstars has a notes tab in the bottom left. Makes it very easy to type things in there. Keep track of how your opponents play.



I do.  It is very costly.  I avoid live cash games because they put me on severe tilt.  

When I play online tournaments, I play high volume so I can shrug off bad beats.  At live poker, the factors that put me on tilt are often unrelated to the actual outcome of the hands.  Live poker is annoying to me because of the slow play, few hands, annoying people, annoying dealers, mistakes people make with the pots, whose turn it is, etc.  

A more insidious form of tilt is "passive" tilt, where you go on such a bad run that you expect to lose, and you become very passive because you fear getting involved with any hands.  Passive tilt can result in limping in too much, calling when you should raise, folding when you should call, not making continuation bets even against one person, and the worst of all, raise/folding too much, even when pot committed.  

This is a difficult form of tilt to spot, because you aren't wildly throwing chips around like standard "tilt."  This form of tilt can go unchecked for weeks. That is why it is important to regularly track your slash stats and also just evaluate your play objectively whenever possible.  Send questionable hand histories to a friend to review to see if you are making mistakes.


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## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Do you guys ever go on tilt? Or maybe a more appropriate question would be how often would you say you go on tilt?
> 
> Since I just started playing with real $ I find myself getting pissed off more when I lose to garbage, and then I make poor decisions in the next hand. I've set a cut off point where if I get there, I make myself quit... need to work on my patience and discipline.
> 
> ^Keeping notes is a good strategy. I like how Pokerstars has a notes tab in the bottom left. Makes it very easy to type things in there. Keep track of how your opponents play.



Things to keep in mind -- focus on DECISIONS, not results.  Bad players focus on results, good players focus on decisions.  Never rabbit hunt.  Who cares?  You folded already.  Never say, "OMG, I FOLDED A ___________."  Who cares?  you FOLDED!  And it was the right fold at the time! Who cares if you fold 2 5 and the flop comes A 3 4 ?  

Don't go around to players whining about bad beats or how bad you are running.  I guarantee I can top them all, and I just don't care.  I don't want to hear it.  If you have a question about a play or a decision, ask me.  (I am using "you" as the generic "you," not you specifically). 

I can't tell you how many times someone has come to me and said something incredibly stupid, like, "So, I had AA and blah blah blah blah (His hand loses somehow).  What should I do?  Should I blah blah blah blah ....."   When in fact, he got it in good and got unlucky.  Why ask anyone what to do there?  I don't get it.  

About losing to trash hands -- If you lose a hand or tournament, three things are possible.  

1)  You got coolered (big hand to big hand and yours is second best).  nothing to evaluate here. 

2)  You got it in good and got unlucky.  Why get upset?  YOU GOT IT IN GOOD.  Would you prefer your opponents play BETTER hands or BETTER poker?  I don't think so, but if you do, move up in stakes and you will get your wish.  

3)  You got outplayed / made mistakes.  If this is the case, why be upset about the opponent or his cards?  Instead focus on better decisions and better play.


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## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> How do you play against super-aggressive players (say you're into the middle/later half a tourney blinds 200/400 50 ante) who almost always re-raise you pre-flo? If I miss the flop w/ A 10 suited I feel like I have no choice but to fold if they put out a little less than 1/2 pot bet. Meanwhile the blinds/antes are eating away at my short chip stack.
> 
> Only call/raise w/ decent hands?
> 
> The few times I won I had top pair top kicker on the flop and re-raised all in, and he folded. Thoughts? Am I approaching this situation incorrectly? I find myself a little confused and don't know exactly what to do when I'm at a table w/ a few super-aggressive players.
> 
> Then he finally knocked me out when he called my all-in raise w/ a jack high flush draw, which he hit on the turn. Which, if my all-in re-raise is a little more than 1/2 the pot, doesn't make sense math mathematically, right? 6k in pot, 3.5k re-raise from me. That's like 3:1 pot odds for him to call. (think I got that right...)
> 
> Maybe this is just the agony you suffer from playing free roll tourneys...



First of all, in the 200 / 400 / 50 situation, you didn't say what your stack is,  so I cannot answer the question.  

Second, if an aggressive player leads for half the pot, he might be trying to buy it.  Often, the aggressive player doesn't like to CALL bets, and he knows if he checks, you will take control of the hand and win the pot.  If you come over the top of him with missed overs, he might fold.  If he calls, you might have 6 outs to win the hand.  Some aggressive players play their big hands slowly, some continue the aggression even when they hit, so you would need to be watching him carefully for any information you can pick up.  

In a "fast" tournament online, once you get below 18 big blinds you really need to be very careful with what you do pre flop.  You cannot afford to be raise/folding very often with that stack.  Ideally, you want to look for a "repop" situation (one where you can reraise someone all in pre flop), that way you pick up more than jsut the blinds and antes.  You don't want to just move in preflop to pick up the blinds and antes, because you are making it a negative EV play since there are so few chips to gain.  

But once you get to a certain point (somewhere around 10 - 12 Big blinds), you should be looking to move in pre flop into an unopened pot, or, into an opened pot with a big hand. Remember that you have no fold equity here, as you do not have enough chips to make someone fold after he opens. 

Also, if you have top/top against an aggro player, why would you reraise all in?  He isn't folding better, and he isn't likely to be calling with worse.  Any worse hand he has that he WOULD call your all in with, he is going to pay you off with anyway.  So you gain absolutely nothing by raising.  

A raise or bet should either 

A) get a better hand to fold or
B) Get a worse hand to call

If it doesn't do either of those, then you have made a mistake.  

Also, it seems like your math is really off here.  If he called your all-in reraise of half the pot, he easily had odds to draw to his flush.  With two cards to come, his flush is 35% to hit.  If you reraised all in for 3500 into a 6000 pot, he is calling 3500 to win 9500.  He easily has odds there.  

Even if you raised 4500 into a 6000 pot, he has odds to draw to a flush.  

Now, if he is only guaranteed to see ONE card, the math is different, but wince you said you reraised all in, that means he gets to see both the turn and river for the 3500 bet.


----------



## Fjones

I decided to check out the 5 cent ten cent game on full tilt just to see what it was like, since someone mentioned the microstakes games.  

The game played very much like a normal game, except for the one clown at the table who wasn't taking it seriously (me).  Just remember, there is always achance that there is one player at the table who is just screwing aroudn with money he doesn't care about, regardless of the buy in for the table.  I have seen people clown around at a $2 $5 table and just not give a shit.  

DON"T LET THESE PLAYERS RATTLE YOU!  They will lose a lot of money most of the time, usually 2 - 5 buy-ins.  But sometiems they will get ridiculously lucky.  This happened to me, I sat with $10 (The maximum) and no one had more than $10.  

Within an hour or so I had $50 and had sent about 6 players from the table . I did not play well, on purpose, but sometimes you can win anyway.  The nonsense culminated in a ridiculous hand that is the kind of hand that starts the "poker is rigged!" crao that people talk about--


Full Tilt Poker Game #10882683185: Table Anticipate - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 3:28:00 ET - 2009/02/28
Seat 1: FoldiWanKenobi ($1.85)
Seat 2: mbburch ($10.84)
Seat 3: Jeksan77 ($1.75)
Seat 4: 420FFSUiTE ($4)
Seat 5: jaylinamusic ($9.50)
Seat 6: mykidsdad4 ($7.68)
Seat 7: Rayan GLB ($2)
Seat 8: FJones ($26.12)
Seat 9: MirrorJK ($3.60)
Jeksan77 posts the small blind of $0.05
420FFSUiTE posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #2

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FJones [4d Ts]

jaylinamusic calls $0.10
mykidsdad4 calls $0.10
Rayan GLB raises to $0.60
FJones calls $0.60
MirrorJK raises to $1.10     *(Mistake.  Do not screw around here with KK like this.  Make a real raise or else the whole table is going to come along for the ride) *
jaylinamusic calls $1
mykidsdad4 calls $1
Rayan GLB raises to $2, and is all in
FJones calls $1.40
MirrorJK raises to $2.90
jaylinamusic calls $1.80
mykidsdad4 calls $1.80
FJones raises to $26.12, and is all in    *(Obviously.  They should have seen this coming.  I had played 75% of the hands, raised most of them, called reraises, and gotten all in pre flop often). *
MirrorJK calls $0.70, and is all in
jaylinamusic calls $6.60, and is all in_*  (Huh?  With crap like Queen seven?)*_
mykidsdad4 calls $4.78, and is all in    *(Huh? With Crap like Ace five?)*

FJones shows [4d Ts]
MirrorJK shows [Kh Kd]
jaylinamusic shows [7c Qc]
mykidsdad4 shows [5s As]
Rayan GLB shows [Qd Ac]
Uncalled bet of $16.62 returned to FrankJones

*** FLOP *** [9h 2h 4s]
*** TURN *** [9h 2h 4s] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [9h 2h 4s Qh] [4c]  _*(Offsuit 4 FTW!)*_

FJones shows three of a kind, Fours
jaylinamusic shows two pair, Queens and Fours
FJones wins side pot #3 ($3.55) with three of a kind, Fours
mykidsdad4 shows a pair of Fours
FJones wins side pot #2 ($11.43) with three of a kind, Fours
MirrorJK shows two pair, Kings and Fours
FJones wins side pot #1 ($5.97) with three of a kind, Fours
Rayan GLB shows two pair, Queens and Fours
FJones wins the main pot ($9.48) with three of a kind, Fours

jaylinamusic is sitting out
mykidsdad4 is sitting out
Rayan GLB adds $2
MirrorJK is sitting out

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $32.43 Main pot $10.15. Side pot 1 $6.40. Side pot 2 $12.24. Side pot 3 $3.64. | Rake $2
Board: [9h 2h 4s Qh 4c]
Seat 1: FoldiWanKenobi didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: mbburch (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Jeksan77 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: 420FFSUiTE (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: jaylinamusic showed [7c Qc] and lost with two pair, Queens and Fours
Seat 6: mykidsdad4 showed [5s As] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 7: Rayan GLB showed [Qd Ac] and lost with two pair, Queens and Fours
Seat 8: FJones showed [4d Ts] and won ($30.43) with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 9: MirrorJK showed [Kh Kd] and lost with two pair, Kings and Fours


The guy with KK should not have messed around, and also, why is he sitting with only 1/3 of the buy in?  Always sit with a full buy in!  

Also, when soemoen is playing like an insane person (as I was), don't mess around with trash hands.  Wait for good ones and crush him.


----------



## johanneschimpo

Fjones said:


> Things to keep in mind -- focus on DECISIONS, not results.  Bad players focus on results, good players focus on decisions.  Never rabbit hunt.  Who cares?  You folded already.  Never say, "OMG, I FOLDED A ___________."  Who cares?  you FOLDED!  And it was the right fold at the time! Who cares if you fold 2 5 and the flop comes A 3 4 ?



I've been trying to tell my poker playing friend that for years now. Oh you're right. You should have called 15 bets with 9-3 of clubs because one club fell on the flop then two more on the turn and river. 
Idiots. I just wish they'd play higher stakes with me if they're going to play like that.


----------



## Fjones

Yeah.  I often like to reply with something like, "What a bad fold.  You would probably make more money if you stopped making terrible folds like that.  who folds a flush???"


----------



## Yippee Skippy

Fjones said:


> My apologies, I must have missed bedhead's post somehow.  I agree 100% with what yippeeskippee said about the aggro player and hands like AT.  Regarding the rest, I agree with that also, though I wouldn't call those "tells."  The stats like VPIP and such are stats and data, which I consider to be different from "tells."  The three stats he mentioned are very important, and are often used as the standard "slash" stats to evaluate players.


yes, they are stats.  my point was they are about the closest thing to tells available, and when I see some guy is 56/3 and he 3-bets me when I have AT I fold.  Based on his stats, I would call that player reraising is a reliable tell.


> Regarding the patterns mentioned, I agree that those are useful also, but I file that under the category of "tendencies," not "tells."  Most certainly, if you see a player doing the same stupid things, you should take advantage of that.


how would a player's tell of chewing on a chip when they have a monster hand be any different than a "tendency" to overbet as a bluff?

You can use different words, but they're basically the same thing - information to see your opponent's hand without a superuser account.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> The guy with KK should not have messed around, and also, why is he sitting with only 1/3 of the buy in?  Always sit with a full buy in!
> 
> Also, when soemoen is playing like an insane person (as I was), don't mess around with trash hands.  Wait for good ones and crush him.



Trip 4s, eh?  Bet everyone was pissed and went on tilt after that hand hehe. 

Couple more questions if ya don't mind (appreciate you taking the time time to answer questions in this thread, really do..) 

Regarding the guy with KK, what should he have raised to? $2? all-in considering he was shortstacked? Obviously he wants 1-2 callers, right? 

Did you lose frequently when you started out? How long did it take you for playing to become 'profitable'? Maybe not hundred dollar days profitable, but to the point where you were constantly winning...


----------



## Cyc

Playing multiple tables in a tight, paint-by-numbers fashion is the only way to reliably make money.


----------



## Fjones

Yippee Skippy said:


> yes, they are stats.  my point was they are about the closest thing to tells available, and when I see some guy is 56/3 and he 3-bets me when I have AT I fold.  Based on his stats, I would call that player reraising is a reliable tell.
> 
> how would a player's tell of chewing on a chip when they have a monster hand be any different than a "tendency" to overbet as a bluff?
> 
> You can use different words, but they're basically the same thing - information to see your opponent's hand without a superuser account.



Look, I don't know what your point is.  We agree, we just are debating semantics.  

A "tell" is something the player says or does ASIDE from his actual bet amounts.  It is not proper to say, "Oh, he raised all in, that's a tell!"  A tell would be, "Oh, he fidgeted with his chips and looked away from me as he raised all in."  

A player's actual betting habits and patterns are his tendencies, not his tells.  

Yes, if a player is 56/3 and you have AT and he 3-bets you, you should fold.  So what?  That isn't a tell.  That's just smart poker.  You should have a really good reason NOT to fold AT to a 3-bet.  At doesn't match up well against a 3-Bet very often. Even bad players do not usually reraise with A9 and under.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Trip 4s, eh?  Bet everyone was pissed and went on tilt after that hand hehe.
> 
> Couple more questions if ya don't mind (appreciate you taking the time time to answer questions in this thread, really do..)
> 
> Regarding the guy with KK, what should he have raised to? $2? all-in considering he was shortstacked? Obviously he wants 1-2 callers, right?
> 
> Did you lose frequently when you started out? How long did it take you for playing to become 'profitable'? Maybe not hundred dollar days profitable, but to the point where you were constantly winning...



Two EP Limpers, an EP raiser, and a MP call from a loose maniac at the table (me).  This is a clear all-in.  But who cares, because he shouldn't be sitting there with 3 dollars, exactly for this reason!  You get KK and you have only 3 dollars?  How stupid is that?  

I lost for a few months, then I broke even for a few months.  Then I started to make profit.  Different people progress at diffeent rates.  

I make money but not nearly as much as I would like, for various reasons.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

Fjones said:


> Look, I don't know what your point is.  We agree, we just are debating semantics.


that is my one point.  carry on.


----------



## basix

I made a decent living from online poker for a year or two, mainly from SNG's and then switched to cash games mainly heads up (1vs1) and some 6 max. Was a profitable player up to the $1/2 $200NL tables sometimes $2/4 $400NL, but didnt play much higher than that. nick was/is feldo on stars. I got fair amount of profits on sharkscope  mainly from lower limit multi table sngs, I always sucked at larger multi table tournies though and never made much from them.

I got so burnt out from playing poker every day though, I'd play anywhere from 9-18 tables sometimes more if it was SNGs, and often for long hours. My sleep schedule was terrible, it starts to affect your moods and emotions if you aren't winning. When you are winning it feels amazing but a downswing would stick in my head and make me irritable/unpleasant person in other areas of my life. 

My main downfall in poker was my benzo habit, I would often go on xanax/valium binges always mixed with lots of alcohol. Multiple times I lost 5 figure bankrolls playing while high only to start again from nothing to rebuild it, then make the same stupid mistake. It took me a while to realise I just dont have the discipline to play online poker for a living, so Ive pretty much quit these days.

I do miss poker though and Im sure ill give it another shot in the future, although it's not certain how long the games will be easily beatable and profitable. Already in the time I was playing the games have gotten alot harder and it looks like they are continuing that way.

Fjones, how long have you been playing, are the games any tougher than when you started?
Were you ever a regular player on stars?


----------



## Fjones

basix said:


> I got so burnt out from playing poker every day though, I'd play anywhere from 9-18 tables sometimes more if it was SNGs, and often for long hours. My sleep schedule was terrible, it starts to affect your moods and emotions if you aren't winning. When you are winning it feels amazing but a downswing would stick in my head and make me irritable/unpleasant person in other areas of my life.



This is very true.  I hate many aspects of doing this.  But I cnanot think of any other way to make a minimum of $25 an hour, and I see the potential to make $50 an hour if I just get my shit together and stop wasting my bankroll on stupid shit.  

I was never a fan of cash games.  I find them boring and irritating.  

I started in the fall of 2004 on Party Poker when the site was still in its early stages, but I mostly dabbled for three years until the winter of 2007, when I started to play more seriously.  

I think the games have gotten a bit tougher, but the fields are still pretty weak.  

I never played on PokerStars.  I hate the interface.


----------



## basix

Yeah the relatively easy money was what kept me coming back to poker, the worst thing now that I work a regular job is trying to change my spending habits. 

 And yeah I know what you mean about wasting bankroll on stupid shit, for me that was MTT's, which I was never really profitable in. I played them to blow off steam and have some fun, which wasn't a good idea as far as my bankroll was concerned.


----------



## Fjones

Poker skews one's perception of money.  How can I take money seriously after throwing around hundreds of dollars at the 2 5 tables in Atlantic City?


----------



## alasdairm

^ this is a good point.

further, i believe that playing with tournament chips in a casino is 2 layers of abstraction away from actual money and online in a tournament players are 4 layers of abstraction away from real money so it's no wonder sometimes that people sometimes make marginal calls for large amounts.

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

I want to discuss some late tourney hands, if you guys don't mind. I've had an interesting run where I went out around 20th or so in three straight tourneys (of 3-400 people). Respectable, but only won ~2-4 times my buy-in. I want to get some thoughts on some key hands.

1. I have 99 in MP. Raise 3xBB. Folded to BB who re-raises all-in. I've previously backed down in the face of such raises. I think BB is loose-agressive. My stack is about 12 BB's after the raise. I....?


*NSFW*: 



Actual result: I called. He had AQ. Mine held up.




2. Very late. Blinds are high. I have an M of around 10. Folded to me on button. I have A5. I.....? What  I actually did was throw in my usual 3xBB raise [note, I'd been playing at a very tight table and opponents had generally folded to 3xBB, but this was a new table]. SB, who was short-stacked, re-raised me all-in. 4xBB more to call. I........?


*NSFW*: 



I figured I was behind, but it was only about 30K to call into a 70K pot. I fgured I had odds. He showed me AT and held up. I figure I should have jammed the pot and made it tough for him to call.




3. Very late, I have an M of 3 after taking a modest bad beat. I'm in LP.UTG, also M of 3, goes all-in. I have A2s. I......?


*NSFW*: 



I called, so did BB. UTG had A6, BB had AK and held up. I really don't think I can justify calling here with A2.




4. Late, with ATs. My M is maybe 6 or 7. Folded to me, can I open push?


*NSFW*: 



I did, he had AJ, I flopped a T and he rivered the win. I cried


----------



## Fjones

alasdairm said:


> ^ this is a good point.
> 
> further, i believe that playing with tournament chips in a casino is 2 layers of abstraction away from actual money and online in a tournament players are 4 layers of abstraction away from real money so it's no wonder sometimes that people sometimes make marginal calls for large amounts.
> 
> alasdair



I like the way you phrased that. The layers of abstraction is a useful way of understanding the goofy things people do.  I might borrow that phrase the next time I am struggling to explain to someone why he lost to someone's T3o al in preflop call.


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> I want to discuss some late tourney hands, if you guys don't mind. I've had an interesting run where I went out around 20th or so in three straight tourneys (of 3-400 people). Respectable, but only won ~2-4 times my buy-in. I want to get some thoughts on some key hands.
> 
> 1. I have 99 in MP. Raise 3xBB. Folded to BB who re-raises all-in. I've previously backed down in the face of such raises. I think BB is loose-agressive. My stack is about 12 BB's after the raise. I....?
> 
> 
> *NSFW*:
> 
> 
> 
> Actual result: I called. He had AQ. Mine held up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Very late. Blinds are high. I have an M of around 10. Folded to me on button. I have A5. I.....? What  I actually did was throw in my usual 3xBB raise [note, I'd been playing at a very tight table and opponents had generally folded to 3xBB, but this was a new table]. SB, who was short-stacked, re-raised me all-in. 4xBB more to call. I........?
> 
> 
> *NSFW*:
> 
> 
> 
> I figured I was behind, but it was only about 30K to call into a 70K pot. I fgured I had odds. He showed me AT and held up. I figure I should have jammed the pot and made it tough for him to call.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Very late, I have an M of 3 after taking a modest bad beat. I'm in LP.UTG, also M of 3, goes all-in. I have A2s. I......?
> 
> 
> *NSFW*:
> 
> 
> 
> I called, so did BB. UTG had A6, BB had AK and held up. I really don't think I can justify calling here with A2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Late, with ATs. My M is maybe 6 or 7. Folded to me, can I open push?
> 
> 
> *NSFW*:
> 
> 
> 
> I did, he had AJ, I flopped a T and he rivered the win. I cried



My two cents, I would be curious to hear others --

1)  I need to know your stack size in any hand analysis.  Stack size is probably the most crucial aspect of a hand.  Position is right up there in importance also (Which you did mention).  

Oops, you did mention stack size (I would suggest putting stack size at the beginning).  You made the right call.  With 15 BB, you cannot afford to raise-fold.  There is no shame in getting it in with 99 against a LAG in the BB who might be playing a broad range of hands.  

2)  Critical error in my opinion.  If the SB only had 7 BB and you only had 15 BB, your move should have been all in, though, you don't know what the BB was going to do, right?  I need his stack size also.  I think you should open fold or open push.  A stack of 15 BB is too small to be getting 3 BB into a pot with a garbage hand like A5.  It doesn't play well post flop and it doesn't match up well against people's playing ranges pre flop.  

You clearly have to call his shove though.  If you are getting 2.33 to 1, you call with literally any 2.  

If you had open pushed, he was calling you anyway, but at least you would have made a more optimal play than being forced to call his shove. 

3)  You have an M of 3 !??  you have to call this.  Your stack is a non-entity at the moment.  Here is a chance to battle against a similarly desperate player.  What better opportunity to you think you are getting if you wait?  Your stack has no fold equity whatsoever.  You have no ability to take down a pot uncontested.  By calling, you hope for the double up PLUS the blinds, which is a great opportunity to make something out of nothing.  It sucks that the Big blind called, but you have to get it in there.  

4)  Yes.  If your M is 6 or 7, you can open push any two cards as long as you have decent position or a decent hand.  an M of 5 and you can open push any two in any situation.


----------



## Chaos Butterfly

potentially stupid question, but the only 'acronym' I'm not getting from the above couple of posts it 'M' what the hell is M??


----------



## Fjones

"M" is a term made popular in the Harrington in Hold em book series.  A friend of his whose name starts with M invented it.  

It is   your stack / (sum of SB  BB  antes) 

so basically it is the number of rounds you can survive before being completely blinded out.  If your M is less than 10, yuo ar in trouble, less than 7 and you are desperate, and less than 5 you are looking to push almost any 2. 

It can be modified to show "effective M" which is important, because of the blinds are aboutto go up, your M is a lot less than you think.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Thanks fjones. In #2, BB had very small stack size (I had about twice his - I actually think my 3xBB put him all-in). As I said, I got into the mindset that people would fold, because at my other table, they were (people were folding and showing me better hands than I was raising with ). An error...I was tired, only excuse.

Oh, 1 more.

About two hours in. I've got an average size stack, maybe M of 20 or so. Blinds 200/400.  No antes yet. EP calls. MP calls. EP has maybe 3/4 my stack, MP has me covered. No real reads. I have 77 and call on the button. BB calls. 

Flop comes KT7 giving me the set. Two spades. EP bets 1200.  MP flat calls. I figure there's a good chance that EP has top pair, MP has flush draw or maybe top or even middle pair. I want to chase the flush draw out, or at least make them pay, so I raise around 4800 (there's about 4000 in the pot). BB and EP fold, MP re-raises me for most of the rest of my stack (he should have just gone all-in, but never mind).

I......?


*NSFW*: 



I pushed all in, figuring I was probably ahead, and if I was losing set over set, so be it. He showed me TT for the higher set. I hit quads on the river :D. But could I have folded? I don't think so....


----------



## alasdairm

i would have pushed too. i can't see doing anything else.

alasdair


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> Thanks fjones. In #2, BB had very small stack size (I had about twice his - I actually think my 3xBB put him all-in). As I said, I got into the mindset that people would fold, because at my other table, they were (people were folding and showing me better hands than I was raising with ). An error...I was tired, only excuse.
> 
> Oh, 1 more.
> 
> About two hours in. I've got an average size stack, maybe M of 20 or so. Blinds 200/400.  No antes yet. EP calls. MP calls. EP has maybe 3/4 my stack, MP has me covered. No real reads. I have 77 and call on the button. BB calls.
> 
> Flop comes KT7 giving me the set. Two spades. EP bets 1200.  MP flat calls. I figure there's a good chance that EP has top pair, MP has flush draw or maybe top or even middle pair. I want to chase the flush draw out, or at least make them pay, so I raise around 4800 (there's about 4000 in the pot). BB and EP fold, MP re-raises me for most of the rest of my stack (he should have just gone all-in, but never mind).
> 
> I......?
> 
> 
> *NSFW*:
> 
> 
> 
> I pushed all in, figuring I was probably ahead, and if I was losing set over set, so be it. He showed me TT for the higher set. I hit quads on the river :D. But could I have folded? I don't think so....




In hand # 2, if the BB was also short stacked, then it was an even bigger mistake not to push. Remember, your "effective" stack is only as big as the largest stack of your opponent.  If you have 20 BB, but the three people yet to act have 7 BB, then your effective stack is 7 BB.  If you do anything less than an open-push, you have made just as big a mistake as if you were the one with 7 BB and did something less than an open-push.  

In the 77 hand, I have not yet finished the hand, but, Limping from the button with pocket 7s, when no one has showed any strength yet?  Raise that!  You are going to miss the flop 7 times out of 8.  Why limp in?  You are also inviting one of the blinds to try to steal the pot with all those limpers in it.  I saw raise right there and take it down.  

Ok, I finished the rest of the hand.   You flopped a set of 7s.  You are not folding this hand under any circumstances at any point in the hand.  The only possible fold is at the river if there are four spades, in which case you grossly misplayed it to allow it to get to that point without being all in.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Thanks, you've basically echoed what I thought (I realised I played some wrong).

A further question on pushing with marginal hands late in the tourney. Is there ever a time you would slow down? e.g. just now I had A6s, A9s and A4o in successive hands. It was a tight table, and normally I'd push with any of those hands, and rely on fold equity. This time, I pushed the first two but folded the A4, figuring I was too likely to get called. It seemed to make sense at the time, but as I type it out, it sounds stupid. (e.g., if someone thinks I'm bluffing and calls with junk, that's a good thing. And if someone does have a hand, they're calling any of my bets).

So can I keep pushing with marginal hands, or should I slow down at some point? (Assume late period, M was about 7 or 8, so up to 10 by the 3rd hand. No-one had very big stacks).


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> Thanks, you've basically echoed what I thought (I realised I played some wrong).
> 
> A further question on pushing with marginal hands late in the tourney. Is there ever a time you would slow down? e.g. just now I had A6s, A9s and A4o in successive hands. It was a tight table, and normally I'd push with any of those hands, and rely on fold equity. This time, I pushed the first two but folded the A4, figuring I was too likely to get called. It seemed to make sense at the time, but as I type it out, it sounds stupid. (e.g., if someone thinks I'm bluffing and calls with junk, that's a good thing. And if someone does have a hand, they're calling any of my bets).
> 
> So can I keep pushing with marginal hands, or should I slow down at some point? (Assume late period, M was about 7 or 8, so up to 10 by the 3rd hand. No-one had very big stacks).




No, that isn't stupid at all, in fact, it shows that you are thinking abotu an important aspect of poker -- how the table perceives you.  I wouldn't shove light either after two shoves. 

Note that it doesn't matter what the first two hands are, because the opponents do not know.  So if you get KK QQ and A4, and you push the KK and QQ and get no callers, you should consider not pushing the A4, as you are likely to get called lighter than usual.


----------



## Fjones

I agree with the above two posts.  Volume is key.  And folks, volume doesn't mean, "I played 50 SNGs and blah blah blah...."  

Volume means thousands of games, hundreds of thousands of hands.  

I am not sure I understand what you said about M and BB though.  

If there are no antes, then M and BB are basically the same.  They will yield a different number, but the stack size they refer to will be the same.  

With no antes, an M of 10 =  having 15 BB.   SO it doesn't matter if you use M or BB, either way , you need to play a certain way when you have 3000 chips at the 100 200 level.  It doesn't matter whether you call it 15 BB or an M of 10.  The appropriate plays do not change.  

With antes, what is the point of BB?   M is what matters there.  Also, the antes usually amount to approximately one big blind, maybe a little more, maybe a little less.  But I can't say I have ever seen a tournament level that had "small" antes or "large" antes.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Online it's easy though, because the pot size is displayed. So if I've got 5000 chips and the blinds are 300/150 with a 25 ante, I can see that the pot is 625 before anyone enters, and I know I've got to start making a move. Thanks for the comments. I'm going to investigate poker tracker soon, I think. Do you think it's worthwhile even at a low level? (I'm playing $5-$10 MTTs or SnG's, or very low stake cash games).


----------



## Bedhead

Can someone look at this hand and tell me if I screwed up or just got unlucky? My emotions may have played a part as well since this guy was calling/raising 4/5 hands and beating top pair top kicker w/ shit like two pair (2s and 4s). I thought I could bust him w/ pockets Qs.. but it didn't turn out that way.... (It's micro stakes...meh, but my bankroll is still small) 

PokerStars Game #26193170852:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/03/21 6:40:35 ET
Table 'Memnon' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Brologna ($1.82 in chips)
Seat 3: sammm18 ($5.14 in chips)
Seat 4: dubbelfris2 ($3.55 in chips)
Seat 5: Zelda - CZ ($1.40 in chips)
Seat 6: NikolasM7 ($2.43 in chips)
Zelda - CZ: posts small blind $0.01
NikolasM7: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NikolasM7 [Qc Qh]
Brologna said, "dumbest sht I've seen all day."
Brologna: calls $0.02
sammm18: folds
dubbelfris2: calls $0.02
Zelda - CZ: folds
NikolasM7: raises $0.08 to $0.10
Brologna: folds
dubbelfris2: calls $0.08
*** FLOP *** [7c 4c Ad]
NikolasM7: bets $0.10
dubbelfris2: calls $0.10
*** TURN *** [7c 4c Ad] [Jc]
SurfRockstar joins the table at seat #1
NikolasM7: bets $0.18
dubbelfris2: calls $0.18
*** RIVER *** [7c 4c Ad Jc] [9c]
NikolasM7: bets $2.05 and is all-in
dubbelfris2: calls $2.05
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NikolasM7: shows [Qc Qh] (a flush, Queen high)
dubbelfris2: shows [5d Ac] (a flush, Ace high)
dubbelfris2 collected $4.69 from pot

I probably shouldn't have pushed all in on the river... but he was playing shit cards and beating people w/ two pair, etc. Never had a 'big' hand to start with. That's why I bet all 3 streets cuz I figured he had jack shit. 

I don't see how he can call on the turn when there's 3 suited cards on the board, I raised preflop, and all he has is top pair shitty kicker. I guess it was just totally irrelevant to him... I realize (now) that I may have been giving him about the right odds to call on the turn to make his flush, but I don't really think he was concerned about pot odds the way he had been playing the last couple hands... 

So what gives? Did I make major mistakes?


----------



## Fjones

Here is my advice on the hand.  

First of all, if you are trying to bet all three streets when you have an underpair to an ace high flop, you are going to get yourself in a lot of difficult spots.  it doesn't matter if the guy is a loose player.  Wen you have a pocket pair on an ace high flop, you might want to consider checking either the flop or turn.  It is easier to win a small pot than a big one when you have an underpair to the board, especially if the high card on the board is an ace, the most common card people show up with in their hand.  

Second, no, you should not have moved in at the river.  What was the point?  What hand did you think he had?  If he had a flush, he is probably betting it himself, because he wouldn't necessarily put You on the flush, so he would likely value bet.  

third, why would you think he would fold on the turn for 18 cents?  the pot was 42 cents.  You bet less than HALF the pot on the turn and he had top pair with the NUT flush draw.  Why would anyone fold that hand to such an anemic bet on the turn?  If you think your pair or your draw is good on the turn, make a real bet, close to the size of the pot.  

Of course, in this case, you were crushed, so it did not matter.  But why bet the turn at all? I am not sure I see the value in that.  I am not sure what you think this guy had, but again, you implied that this guy was loose and beating people's top top with garbage two pair right?  Well, you were losing to two pair at the turn.  So I think you should have slowed down and controlled the size of the pot.


----------



## Bedhead

I appreciate your constructive criticism Fjones. I guess I did play it like a bonehead. My turn + river bet was fueled more by 'wtf, why won't he fold, he plays garbage hands, I've barely won a pot since I sat down' than reason.

Seems like I have a lot of work to do before my bankroll goes anywhere.


----------



## Bedhead

I got another hand that I'm not sure I played completely right. 

Pokerstars Double or nothing S N G

Blinds 100/200 + 20 ante
Seat 3: StepxtheBest (3155 in chips)
Seat 5: DALMIK123 (1710 in chips)
Seat 6: squirrel22tn (4110 in chips)
Seat 8: NikolasM7 (1995 in chips)
Seat 9: Ottmann82 (2180 in chips)
Seat 10: 7Juglar (1850 in chips)
NikolasM7: posts small blind 100
Ottmann82: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kd Kc]
7Juglar: folds
StepxtheBest: folds
DALMIK123: raises 400 to 600
squirrel22tn: raises 400 to 1000
NikolasM7: raises 975 to 1975 and is all-in
Ottmann82: folds
DALMIK123: folds
squirrel22tn: calls 975
*** FLOP *** [Ad 6s 6h]
*** TURN *** [Ad 6s 6h] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [Ad 6s 6h 2d] [7h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NikolasM7: shows [Kd Kc] (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
squirrel22tn: shows [Qd Ah] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)

squirrel was calling all-ins with cards like A 10 and I figured he didn't have a monster like AA or anything decent, and his re-raise was an attempt to make the initial raiser fold and collect the pot. So I pushed and figured if he had something decent like A K, I'd still be in good shape. The initial raiser folded as I expected and he called. I was in good shape before the flop, but than the ace came... 

Anyway I could've played this different? Or just unlucky and nothing I can do about it? I wasn't gonna fold KK here. If I called I'd be out of position w/ half my stack in the pot, and more or less crippled if an ace came on the flop (which it did.. lawl) and I had to fold. 

I mean WTF is he doing calling 1k more w/ AQ when he's the big stack so close the money? Even if he is getting odds to call...


----------



## alasdairm

Bedhead said:


> I mean WTF is he doing calling 1k more w/ AQ when he's the big stack so close the money? Even if he is getting odds to call...


AQ is hardly a shoddy hand there. even if he's getting odds to call? i'm not sure what you mean by 'even' here.

even if he's _not_ getting odds to call (which i think he is), he might figure this is a race with you also on an ace - or a half-decent pair - and he's just gambling to get you out. a gamble which, on this occasion, paid off.

sometimes you're going to play a hand as well as anybody can play it and still lose. if you concentrate on the decisions you've made and not the results, you'll be fien.

alasdair


----------



## Bedhead

alasdairm said:


> AQ is hardly a shoddy hand there. even if he's getting odds to call? i'm not sure what you mean by 'even' here.



I meant that if you're on or near the bubble, even if you have a large stack, it doesn't make sense to risk 1/2 your stack on a coin flip - or KQ/J/10 even if you're getting the right pot odds to call. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to preserve his large chip stack and let the smaller stacks duke it out? If he'd lost that hand he would've had ~2k in chips and be even with all the other small stacks. A coin flip doesn't seem worth the risk here, IMO. 

I guess I'm just trying to justify my actions and chalk his win up to dumb luck.


----------



## alasdairm

^ if we all did exactly what the book told us to do in every situation, poker would be a very boring game. sometimes you go against what the situation calls for just because you have a feeling. sometimes you do it just for shits and giggles and it pays off. occasionally you do something which makes no sense purely for the reason that it makes no sense.

like i said, some hands, you're going to play as well as anybody could possibly play them and you're still going to lose them.

alasdair


----------



## Bedhead

For some reason I thought there were seven players at the table lol...

Now that I realize there were six, it makes more sense for him to call in an attempt to knock me out in that situation. Even if he loses, he isn't crippled. 

And it was a 1.10 turbo S N G btw.


----------



## colors

i've been playing on FullTilt for about 6 months.

started with play chips and went from 1,000->100,000 over a few months of learning, and then added some real money. have also played a few 'in person' tournaments lately at the casino. the skills transferred well, although the IRL stakes were fairly low.

i disagree re play chips being a bad way to learn. once you get up to around the 10,000 level, the play is on par with low stakes real money. i did a bit of reading, but i think the easiest way to learn is just experimentation with the play chips and getting as much experience as possible.

as far as 'cheating' ... yes it definitely does exist in online poker. i have seen quite a bit of it. the most common scenario IME is 6 handed SnG's and rings where you will notice a single player controlling 2 hands. there will be suspicious folding and chip feeding, auto actions, etc. a common give-away is similar handles ... in one sense or another (content, number style, capitalization, w/e). one time i was witness to a a bizarre faked conversation between a player and their alias 8). to avoid these cheaters i usually play multi table SnG's - 18 or 27 where the chances of making it to the final 9 are good if you stay focused over the first 30min.


----------



## Bedhead

Oh man, I love how when there's 6 players left the 6k stack folds in the BB to the 6th place players all-in shove which is 495 more... fucking clown. If chat wasn't disabled years of expensive therapy couldn't reverse what I was about to lay into the big stack with, that fucker. 

This continues... until someone shoves and I call w/ QQ only to be up against KK, and I finish in 6th. Great. 

Same fucker entered a 3 way pot w/ 1 all-in and then bets the turn and river... other stack folds (with god knows what). Big stack shows TPTK, all-in player has 2 pair (10-3o)... wtf

At the bubble they play poker as if they're trying to win every single hand... getting the small stack knocked out doesn't seem to cross their mind. They'll fold in late position with the short stack in the BB on the bubble, as if it's standard. The short stack was an idiot too.. didn't seem to figure to push w/ 2-4 BB, yet he managed to pick up the blinds + antes and accumulate chips whenever these idiots folded TO HIM. What was I doing? Why wasn't I knocking him out? I was trying to survive while getting dick for cards w/ a medium stack, waiting for the 2 bigger stacks to knock someone out. 

The one pocket pair I did have (8s), where'd I called his all-in, the guy hits trips  (6 3o) on the river... 8)

The big stack also rr'd someone's 3x preflop raise all-in w/ AA (showed it after everyone folded) like that's a good play??? 

This could've ended 15 minutes earlier than it did if his IQ wasn't <50.

Then there was that clown who re-raised my 3x bet rr preflop to all-in first hand of the SnG w/ 77 (I had KK). Needless to say I doubled up early. 

Christ. Just as I'm finally building my bankroll back up too... 

/rant


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> Yeah, I have seen some really really bad bubble play, and its really to be expected from alot of low limit online players, and ALOT of older players who have never read a book or played online.
> 
> I will be honest, I have played a double or nothing and had like a 7500 stack with 6 left and they are all folding to win, and I will just open shove with 4 9 or something and e veryone folds and Ill show. hehehehe, thats when I used to play smaller sngs, I have learned that karma in poker is very real, and don't ever make a bad comment/early comment/ anything like that anymore haha.



LOL.. reading my post I was MAD last night. Feeling much better today. Heh. 

Turbos would be so much easier if at the bubble, everyone ganged up on the short stack.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> I got another hand that I'm not sure I played completely right.
> 
> Pokerstars Double or nothing S N G
> 
> Blinds 100/200 + 20 ante
> Seat 3: StepxtheBest (3155 in chips)
> Seat 5: DALMIK123 (1710 in chips)
> Seat 6: squirrel22tn (4110 in chips)
> Seat 8: NikolasM7 (1995 in chips)
> Seat 9: Ottmann82 (2180 in chips)
> Seat 10: 7Juglar (1850 in chips)
> NikolasM7: posts small blind 100
> Ottmann82: posts big blind 200
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kd Kc]
> 7Juglar: folds
> StepxtheBest: folds
> DALMIK123: raises 400 to 600
> squirrel22tn: raises 400 to 1000
> NikolasM7: raises 975 to 1975 and is all-in
> Ottmann82: folds
> DALMIK123: folds
> squirrel22tn: calls 975
> *** FLOP *** [Ad 6s 6h]
> *** TURN *** [Ad 6s 6h] [2d]
> *** RIVER *** [Ad 6s 6h 2d] [7h]
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> NikolasM7: shows [Kd Kc] (two pair, Kings and Sixes)
> squirrel22tn: shows [Qd Ah] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
> 
> squirrel was calling all-ins with cards like A 10 and I figured he didn't have a monster like AA or anything decent, and his re-raise was an attempt to make the initial raiser fold and collect the pot. So I pushed and figured if he had something decent like A K, I'd still be in good shape. The initial raiser folded as I expected and he called. I was in good shape before the flop, but than the ace came...
> 
> Anyway I could've played this different? Or just unlucky and nothing I can do about it? I wasn't gonna fold KK here. If I called I'd be out of position w/ half my stack in the pot, and more or less crippled if an ace came on the flop (which it did.. lawl) and I had to fold.
> 
> I mean WTF is he doing calling 1k more w/ AQ when he's the big stack so close the money? Even if he is getting odds to call...




First of all, who cares what Squirrel is calling all ins with?  You have pocket kings.  He is obviously calling with any two after raising to half your stack.  

Second, I haven't even read your entire post yet, but I am really concerned about the fact that you wrote this post at all.  

You had pocket kings, and when it got to you, you put in the maximum number of chips possible and got called by a weaker hand.  What is there to analyze here?  
You are one of the small stacks, so folding into the money is not a good idea.  If you fold KK here and Dalmik doubles up, then what?  Now you are in bad shape and just folded the second best hand in poker.  

Also AQ is an instacall there.  Are you really suggesting he FOLD AQ getting almost 4 to 1?  He has odds to call with any hand when getting 4 to 1.  

And What is up with Dalmik?  Putting in chips and folding when you are the SS with 9 BB is pure folly.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> I meant that if you're on or near the bubble, even if you have a large stack, it doesn't make sense to risk 1/2 your stack on a coin flip - or KQ/J/10 even if you're getting the right pot odds to call. Wouldn't it make more sense for him to preserve his large chip stack and let the smaller stacks duke it out? If he'd lost that hand he would've had ~2k in chips and be even with all the other small stacks. A coin flip doesn't seem worth the risk here, IMO.
> 
> I guess I'm just trying to justify my actions and chalk his win up to dumb luck.



He didn't risk half his stack.  He had already put in 1000, so it was only another 975 to call.  It is a no brainer.  No one is ever putting in 1000 and folding to 975 more.  Well, I have seen it, but it is a huge mistake.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Oh, yeah, a 1.10 turbo is going to be fast and furious with some RIDICULOUS play.  Now, I will throw a different example at you.
> 
> Say you had KK here with 6 people left, blinds 100/200 and your respective stack is 500.
> 
> Say the really short stack shoved all in for 400 Under the gun, and ALL four bigger stacks called, and it is left for you to act in the BB. What do you do here?
> 
> Bubble play can be interesting, and the CORRECT play would be to FOLD KK here, even if you had AA I would fold it in an instant.
> 
> Bubble play in some of the bigger Double or Nothings gets pretty tight, and can be really troublesome (20-100$ double or nothings) but the 1.10 turbos can be pretty light, and if you stay patient and get your money in good, thats all you can do.  Alot of people play 10-15 of these at once, so people know how to play correctly, which can be crutical.
> 
> But still, in a nut shell, you did the right thing there with KK, only under some circumstances can you fold KK here preflop.



I cannot agree with this.  Why fold AA?  All you have to do is beat the short stack.  You do not have to beat any of the other players.  

500 chips at the 100 200 level doesn't give you much chance if the guy does win the hand, so what do you really gain by folding?  I say, put your chips in and increase the chances that the short stack busts.  What if the SS has QQ or KK and has the others dominated?


----------



## Fjones

colors said:


> i've been playing on FullTilt for about 6 months.
> 
> started with play chips and went from 1,000->100,000 over a few months of learning, and then added some real money. have also played a few 'in person' tournaments lately at the casino. the skills transferred well, although the IRL stakes were fairly low.
> 
> i disagree re play chips being a bad way to learn. once you get up to around the 10,000 level, the play is on par with low stakes real money. i did a bit of reading, but i think the easiest way to learn is just experimentation with the play chips and getting as much experience as possible.
> 
> as far as 'cheating' ... yes it definitely does exist in online poker. i have seen quite a bit of it. the most common scenario IME is 6 handed SnG's and rings where you will notice a single player controlling 2 hands. there will be suspicious folding and chip feeding, auto actions, etc. a common give-away is similar handles ... in one sense or another (content, number style, capitalization, w/e). one time i was witness to a a bizarre faked conversation between a player and their alias 8). to avoid these cheaters i usually play multi table SnG's - 18 or 27 where the chances of making it to the final 9 are good if you stay focused over the first 30min.




What stakes were you playing when you notiecd this?  I really do not think it happens a lot at the low stakes.  It isn't really worth it.  Sometimes people are just really bad and their mistakes look like collusion.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Oh man, I love how when there's 6 players left the 6k stack folds in the BB to the 6th place players all-in shove which is 495 more... fucking clown. If chat wasn't disabled years of expensive therapy couldn't reverse what I was about to lay into the big stack with, that fucker.
> 
> This continues... until someone shoves and I call w/ QQ only to be up against KK, and I finish in 6th. Great.
> 
> Same fucker entered a 3 way pot w/ 1 all-in and then bets the turn and river... other stack folds (with god knows what). Big stack shows TPTK, all-in player has 2 pair (10-3o)... wtf
> 
> At the bubble they play poker as if they're trying to win every single hand... getting the small stack knocked out doesn't seem to cross their mind. They'll fold in late position with the short stack in the BB on the bubble, as if it's standard. The short stack was an idiot too.. didn't seem to figure to push w/ 2-4 BB, yet he managed to pick up the blinds + antes and accumulate chips whenever these idiots folded TO HIM. What was I doing? Why wasn't I knocking him out? I was trying to survive while getting dick for cards w/ a medium stack, waiting for the 2 bigger stacks to knock someone out.
> 
> The one pocket pair I did have (8s), where'd I called his all-in, the guy hits trips  (6 3o) on the river... 8)
> 
> The big stack also rr'd someone's 3x preflop raise all-in w/ AA (showed it after everyone folded) like that's a good play???
> 
> This could've ended 15 minutes earlier than it did if his IQ wasn't <50.
> 
> Then there was that clown who re-raised my 3x bet rr preflop to all-in first hand of the SnG w/ 77 (I had KK). Needless to say I doubled up early.
> 
> Christ. Just as I'm finally building my bankroll back up too...
> 
> /rant



What were the stacks?  Calling with QQ might have been an error, depending on the situation.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> I recall reading you played on full tilt, and I know they don't have the double or nothing sit n goes.  Basically, 10 people play this sng, say they all pay 10$ to get in.  when the 6th person is eliminated and 5 are left, the game is over.  So the 100$ prize pool is split 5 ways so everyone gets double what they paid, so they get 20.
> 
> The theoretical situation I tried to explain was that if he was short with 300 chips with 6 people left with AA and a 500 chip short stack shoved, and everyone called and it came to you.  This is a fold 100% of the time.  Why would you risk getting knocked out in 6th with AA when there is an all in and 5 callers, 80% of the time he is going to get knocked out.  In that theoretical situation, ANY hand should be folded 100% of the time.  But if there were 7 people left, you would call with AA 100% of the time, probably any A10s+ 77+  maybe KQs.  just situational.
> 
> But his situation with KK was the right play, there were so super super short stacks, and there were not 5 callers, so it is right to call the all in with KK.




you changed the circumstances.  Initially you said you have a stack of 500 and the guy shoves for 400 and gets called by everyone.   That is a different scenario than the one you described just now, where you gave the short stacked guy a stack of 500 and us a stack of 300.  In the first scenario, the one I objected to, You/I/we can bust the short stack with our AA, therefore we need to get in there and call, to increase the chances the short stack gets knocked out.  As I said, what if the Short stack has eveyrone else beat?  

WHat do you gain by folding?  If you go all in with the AA, you only lose if the short stack wins the hand.  But if that happens, you lose anyway by folding, because now you have a non stack and no one else is short stacked.  

So I think you are better served by increasing the chances that the short stack loses.  

In the new scenario you just described, there is less incentive to go with the AA, because in this scenario, we cannot bust theo ther guy with our AA, because heh as more chips than we do.  So, now maybe you fold the AA because either way we need one of the bigger stacks to beat the guy.  

I hope this clears up what I was saying.  I know how a double or nothing SNG works, I just don't necessarily agree that you fold AA there, not when if you fodl and the guy wins you are screwed anyway.  I don't see how folding the AA there increases your EV.


----------



## Fjones

I actually think the decision whether to fold AA is often an interesting discussion.  

In a DON SNG, here is how I would decide, on the bubble.  

I would ask myself the following question -- 

"Does my making the top 5 depend entirely on whether the short stack wins his all in?"

In other words, if my stack is so small that I am assured of finishing 6th IF the Short stack wins his all in, I would just add my chips to the pile and increase the chances that I beat him with my AA (This assumes my stack is equal or larger to his so that I can actually bust him). 

As an example, if there are 6 left and the short stack and I each have 400 at the 100 200 level, and the other players have 3175 each, and the short stack pushes, everyone calls, and I have AA, I am calling.  

I see no value in folding.  If the short stack wins his all in, I am going to bubble.  If he loses the all in, he bubbles and I win.  So why not get in with the AA and increase the chances that the short stack actually does lose?  

Regarding the last question you asked, if I am short stack on the bubble and there three all ins in front of me and I have AA in the big blind, I might consider folding.  But again, it depends on how likely I think I am to survive if no one gets knocked out.  What it the short stack holds up, possibly because we folded our AA?   Now we are still a short stack with no guarantee of getting a good hand.  

As an extreme example though, if 4 people are all in for EXACTLY 2500 on the bubble and I have less than 2500, I am folding every time with AA, because surely SOMEONE is getting knocked out since they all have the same stack and can all knock each other out.  But if I stick it in, and multiple people lose, I get 6th by reason of starting the hand with fewer chips.  

I like discussing poker with you.  I am glad this thread has drawn interest.


----------



## Fjones

And on a positive note, I played my first real session in 5 months (various frustrating reason for why I had to take 5 months off).  

The results were mind boggling.  

I played 6.7 hours and played 34 games. All were 45 man SNGS.  3 of them were $26, and 31 of them were $75.  I had 6 to 10 games going at a time.  

I had 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th, for a net profit of just under $3000.00.

It's always nice to get back into it with a monster session.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> And on a positive note, I played my first real session in 5 months (various frustrating reason for why I had to take 5 months off).
> 
> The results were mind boggling.
> 
> I played 6.7 hours and played 34 games. All were 45 man SNGS.  3 of them were $26, and 31 of them were $75.  I had 6 to 10 games going at a time.
> 
> I had 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th, for a net profit of just under $3000.00.
> 
> It's always nice to get back into it with a monster session.



Congrads. 

Anyone have any thoughts on DoN Turbo SnGs ? I've been doing really bad lately playing them, and I think I need to switch to the non-turbo DoNs. 

The difference is 5 vs 10 min blinds. During a turbo I feel like if you're getting bad cards.. the blinds just eat you away, and you're forced to push w/ a mediocre hand (in my case JTo), if you've been playing tight and don't have that many chips, and then run up again KK. I see people winning with high pocket pairs, high suited cards, etc... I wasn't getting any of those hands it seemed... 

Thoughts on turbos? Play as many decent hands as you can early, while the blinds are low? With a big stack, start stealing when most players have ~10 BBs? Should strategy early on be accumulating as many chips as possible while the blinds are low, playing looser than you normally would? 

Oh man.. this hand happened as I was typing this response...Anything I could've done differently? I got my $ in PF... so this is just bad luck right? Could've I have just called his PF RR? Doesn't sound like a good move though? I know beating aces isn't anything extraordinary, but my bankroll has been taking some hits and this just hurts so much more... 

PokerStars Game #26909165526:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/04/09 17:08:44 ET
Table 'Polyxo III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: peterlolol ($1.81 in chips)
Seat 2: paul75404 ($3.17 in chips)
Seat 3: 222bowhunter ($0.65 in chips)
Seat 4: NikolasM7 ($4.77 in chips)
Seat 5: FunbI4 ($4.45 in chips)
Seat 6: BARAKUDAKULA ($2.77 in chips)
FunbI4: posts small blind $0.01
BARAKUDAKULA: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NikolasM7 [Ah Ac]
peterlolol: calls $0.02
paul75404: calls $0.02
222bowhunter: calls $0.02
NikolasM7: raises $0.08 to $0.10
FunbI4: folds
BARAKUDAKULA: raises $0.16 to $0.26
peterlolol: folds
paul75404: folds
222bowhunter: folds
NikolasM7: raises $2.25 to $2.51
BARAKUDAKULA: raises $0.26 to $2.77 and is all-in
NikolasM7: calls $0.26
*** FLOP *** [6h 2s 4c]
*** TURN *** [6h 2s 4c] [Jh]
*** RIVER *** [6h 2s 4c Jh] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BARAKUDAKULA: shows [Jd Js] (a full house, Jacks full of Fours)
NikolasM7: mucks hand
BARAKUDAKULA collected $5.36 from pot


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Congrads.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on DoN Turbo SnGs ? I've been doing really bad lately playing them, and I think I need to switch to the non-turbo DoNs.
> 
> The difference is 5 vs 10 min blinds. During a turbo I feel like if you're getting bad cards.. the blinds just eat you away, and you're forced to push w/ a mediocre hand (in my case JTo), if you've been playing tight and don't have that many chips, and then run up again KK. I see people winning with high pocket pairs, high suited cards, etc... I wasn't getting any of those hands it seemed...
> 
> Thoughts on turbos? Play as many decent hands as you can early, while the blinds are low? With a big stack, start stealing when most players have ~10 BBs? Should strategy early on be accumulating as many chips as possible while the blinds are low, playing looser than you normally would?
> 
> Oh man.. this hand happened as I was typing this response...Anything I could've done differently? I got my $ in PF... so this is just bad luck right? Could've I have just called his PF RR? Doesn't sound like a good move though? I know beating aces isn't anything extraordinary, but my bankroll has been taking some hits and this just hurts so much more...
> 
> PokerStars Game #26909165526:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2009/04/09 17:08:44 ET
> Table 'Polyxo III' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
> Seat 1: peterlolol ($1.81 in chips)
> Seat 2: paul75404 ($3.17 in chips)
> Seat 3: 222bowhunter ($0.65 in chips)
> Seat 4: NikolasM7 ($4.77 in chips)
> Seat 5: FunbI4 ($4.45 in chips)
> Seat 6: BARAKUDAKULA ($2.77 in chips)
> FunbI4: posts small blind $0.01
> BARAKUDAKULA: posts big blind $0.02
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to NikolasM7 [Ah Ac]
> peterlolol: calls $0.02
> paul75404: calls $0.02
> 222bowhunter: calls $0.02
> NikolasM7: raises $0.08 to $0.10
> FunbI4: folds
> BARAKUDAKULA: raises $0.16 to $0.26
> peterlolol: folds
> paul75404: folds
> 222bowhunter: folds
> NikolasM7: raises $2.25 to $2.51
> BARAKUDAKULA: raises $0.26 to $2.77 and is all-in
> NikolasM7: calls $0.26
> *** FLOP *** [6h 2s 4c]
> *** TURN *** [6h 2s 4c] [Jh]
> *** RIVER *** [6h 2s 4c Jh] [4d]
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> BARAKUDAKULA: shows [Jd Js] (a full house, Jacks full of Fours)
> NikolasM7: mucks hand
> BARAKUDAKULA collected $5.36 from pot




I'll take this one step further.  At small stakes, when you get aces, just go all in, no matter what.  You'll get called.  I used to do this and it worked.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Nice man!! Great session.   I just started playing some FTP, I relized I had 49$ in the account and 330$ in uncleared bonus's so I started grinding .10 .25 and made it up to 1$ 2$ and cleared 220 of my bonus. haha
> 
> You know, it always seems like a nice, refreshing break does the trick, that is, when you come back, your on the upswing of your varience :D, sucks when you come back and you drop 500$.
> 
> The one who taught me and my roomate to play just had his biggest win of his online career, man, I need to post HUGE numbers like this.  Www.officialpokerranking.com  look up AJINOK  3rd in 109$Rebuy for 41,440!  sheesh.
> 
> Fjones, are you a straight SNG grinder? MTT specialist? Cash game legend? or just a big mix?



SNG grinder.  I have played MTTs and had soem decent scores up to $4000, but I have not yet hit the big one.  I hate cash games.


----------



## Fjones

I am not one to complain about bad beats much, BUT -- If you are going to complain about a bad beat, at least make it a good one.  This is almsot as bad as it gets.  Note when the chips go in.  There were 11 left in a 45 man $75 SNG.  7,160 chips is a huge amount at this stage of the tournament.  


Full Tilt Poker Game #***********: $69 + $6 Sit & Go (********), Table 5 - 300/600 - No Limit Hold'em - 00:00:00 ET - 2009/04/12
Seat 1: Player A (3,511)
Seat 2: HERO (6,800)
Seat 3: Player B (7,926)
Seat 5: Player C (4,186)
Seat 8: Player D (3,280)
Seat 9: Player E (6,005)
Player A posts the small blind of 300
Hero posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #9

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Ks 2s]
(all fold to Player D)
Player D calls 600
Player E folds
Player A calls 300
HERO checks

*** FLOP *** [5d Kh Kd]
Player A checks
HERO checks
Player D bets 2,680, and is all in  
Player A Folds
HERO calls 2,680
Player D shows [9c As]    (OOPS.  Why didn't he just move all in pre flop!???)
HERO shows [Ks 2s]

*** TURN *** [5d Kh Kd] [Ad]
*** RIVER *** [5d Kh Kd Ad] [Ac]

Player D shows a full house, Aces full of Kings
HERO shows a full house, Kings full of Aces
Player D wins the pot (7,160) with a full house, Aces full of Kings

I think this is the second worst bad beat you cna possibly take.


----------



## alasdairm

Fjones said:


> Don't go around to players whining about bad beats...
> ...
> 2)  You got it in good and got unlucky.  Why get upset?




tough beat...

alasdair


----------



## Fjones

heh.  It Happened again tonight.  AQ vs. AJ on Q 4 4 board.  Running jacks come.  

My return to playing online is going well so far.  And, I am currently deep in a tournament.  If I win, drinks are on me!  Whenever that may be.


----------



## Fjones

River jack!!  that is wild.  

KING EIGHT !????????????????????  

WOW.  

I made the final table of the 50-50 last night.  I felt really good and I thought I was going to have my first 5 figure score.  But alas it was not meant to be.  My finish was a "disappointing" one but still a good score.  I was card dead at the FT and I could not make any moves because of position, stack, etc.  When I finally got something I pushed right into KK.


----------



## Bedhead

Is folding AKo here OK? 

PokerStars Game #27191056836: Tournament #156604973, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2009/04/17 12:51:45 ET
Table '156604973 1' 10-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: NikolasM7 (1120 in chips) 
Seat 2: JacKonCracKz (2290 in chips) 
Seat 3: kozloow (2195 in chips) 
Seat 5: atit9 (7730 in chips) 
Seat 7: berrendo929 (1380 in chips) 
Seat 9: rs03rs03 (285 in chips) 
NikolasM7: posts the ante 30
JacKonCracKz: posts the ante 30
kozloow: posts the ante 30
atit9: posts the ante 30
berrendo929: posts the ante 30
rs03rs03: posts the ante 30
atit9: posts small blind 150
berrendo929: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kc As]
rs03rs03: folds 
NikolasM7: folds 
JacKonCracKz: folds 
kozloow: folds 
atit9: calls 150
berrendo929: checks 
*** FLOP *** [Ks Qc 9c]
atit9: bets 300
berrendo929: folds 
Uncalled bet (300) returned to atit9
atit9 collected 780 from pot
atit9: doesn't show hand 
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 780 | Rake 0 
Board [Ks Qc 9c]
Seat 1: NikolasM7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: JacKonCracKz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: kozloow (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: atit9 (small blind) collected (780)
Seat 7: berrendo929 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: rs03rs03 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

atit9 was playing very loose. Shoving all in every couple of hands, with mediocre cards. He probably bet the flop in this hand w/ air. rs03rs03 had 1 BB blind here, and would be all-in next hand when the blinds reached him. Next hand he ended up getting knocked out, luckily. On the other hand, if by some stroke of luck, he got lucky and won. When the BB reached me I'd have 800, and not in a great spot. Still more than rs03rs03, but 5/6 in chips. 

So push w/ AKo and gamble? I'm not sure atit9 would call, but he might. At any rate, I'd probably be ahead or it at least be a coin flip. Is folding here correct bubble play or was I playing scared? I'm thinking the former...


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Is folding AKo here OK?
> 
> PokerStars Game #27191056836: Tournament #156604973, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2009/04/17 12:51:45 ET
> Table '156604973 1' 10-max Seat #3 is the button
> Seat 1: NikolasM7 (1120 in chips)
> Seat 2: JacKonCracKz (2290 in chips)
> Seat 3: kozloow (2195 in chips)
> Seat 5: atit9 (7730 in chips)
> Seat 7: berrendo929 (1380 in chips)
> Seat 9: rs03rs03 (285 in chips)
> NikolasM7: posts the ante 30
> JacKonCracKz: posts the ante 30
> kozloow: posts the ante 30
> atit9: posts the ante 30
> berrendo929: posts the ante 30
> rs03rs03: posts the ante 30
> atit9: posts small blind 150
> berrendo929: posts big blind 300
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kc As]
> rs03rs03: folds
> NikolasM7: folds
> JacKonCracKz: folds
> kozloow: folds
> atit9: calls 150
> berrendo929: checks
> *** FLOP *** [Ks Qc 9c]
> atit9: bets 300
> berrendo929: folds
> Uncalled bet (300) returned to atit9
> atit9 collected 780 from pot
> atit9: doesn't show hand
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot 780 | Rake 0
> Board [Ks Qc 9c]
> Seat 1: NikolasM7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 2: JacKonCracKz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 3: kozloow (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> Seat 5: atit9 (small blind) collected (780)
> Seat 7: berrendo929 (big blind) folded on the Flop
> Seat 9: rs03rs03 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
> 
> atit9 was playing very loose. Shoving all in every couple of hands, with mediocre cards. He probably bet the flop in this hand w/ air. rs03rs03 had 1 BB blind here, and would be all-in next hand when the blinds reached him. Next hand he ended up getting knocked out, luckily. On the other hand, if by some stroke of luck, he got lucky and won. When the BB reached me I'd have 800, and not in a great spot. Still more than rs03rs03, but 5/6 in chips.
> 
> So push w/ AKo and gamble? I'm not sure atit9 would call, but he might. At any rate, I'd probably be ahead or it at least be a coin flip. Is folding here correct bubble play or was I playing scared? I'm thinking the former...



Is this a double or nothing tournament?  If so, then I suppose you fold the AK, though I still am not sure.  You have enough chips that no one ELSE should be risking calling you on the bubble either, because if you beat a caller, now that caller is in your position.  

By the way I think these DON tournaments are a bad idea.  Good SNG players can exploit the weaker players to finish 1st a disproportionate amount of the time.  That is how I make most of my money.   That part of the game is lost in a DON tournament.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> Is this a double or nothing tournament?  If so, then I suppose you fold the AK, though I still am not sure.  You have enough chips that no one ELSE should be risking calling you on the bubble either, because if you beat a caller, now that caller is in your position.
> 
> By the way I think these DON tournaments are a bad idea.  Good SNG players can exploit the weaker players to finish 1st a disproportionate amount of the time.  That is how I make most of my money.   That part of the game is lost in a DON tournament.



Yeah it was a turbo DoN. I agree with you on the DoN vs. regular SnG. It seems that playing regular SnGs would make you a better poker player than then DoNs. All you have to do really is build a chipstack and survive. 

I've been running so hot lately.  Won probably the last 12 or so DoNs in a row!
So Fjones, you would advocate regular SnGs compared to DoNs?


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Yeah it was a turbo DoN. I agree with you on the DoN vs. regular SnG. It seems that playing regular SnGs would make you a better poker player than then DoNs. All you have to do really is build a chipstack and survive.
> 
> I've been running so hot lately.  Won probably the last 12 or so DoNs in a row!
> So Fjones, you would advocate regular SnGs compared to DoNs?



I can't see how playing turbo SNGS DON's would make you a better player, in fact I suspect it will make you worse.  I suggest switching immediately before irreparable harm is done.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Dons are and reg sns are similiar in the early levels of the SNG.  DONS have probably do not have the varience that normal SNGS do, as half the field gets paid as compared to 2-3 people getting paid.  If you KNOW how to play sngs correctly, and know how to play the bubble correctly, DONS can be profitable, but in the low limits (1$) people really dont seem to care if they bubble or not, so you are fighting through a TON of varience.
> 
> Also, you are playing turbo dons, so if you dont get a stack early, your going to have to shove very light or until you get a good hand.
> 
> And FJONES, you made that final table at the 50/50 on sunday right?



Tuesday night.   I then made the "money" in the 28 K Last night and made a mind-boggling error that took myself out of the tournament with an avg stack and 85 people left out of 1250.  I made a dumb dumb dumb play that I am still kicking myself over.


----------



## Hypnotik1

Anyone care to share their strategy in 'Heads Up' play? 

Its where I really struggle....I like to play Sit n Go's and most of the time i finish in the top 3 but i rarely win. I just really suck head up. I seems to me, especially when playing a real aggressive player, that its just a crap shoot. 

So how do yall play?


----------



## basix

If its down to HU of a sng the blinds are usually really high relative to stacks sizes, its mostly just time to push any decent hands, push over their limps with a wide range, and be aggressive in general. Alot of bad players are still quite passive at this stage and let you keep stealing till they find a good hand.

If blinds arent too high then instead of pushing preflop you can raise 2.5-3 times the blinds preflop but still continuation bet and try to take most pots on the flop. Because there isnt much room to play pots with the stack sizes here, most players wont put in any chips unless they hit the flop and you can steal alot of pots just by being agressive.

With high blinds and a HU match its always going to be a crapshoot, but being agressive is definately key to giving yourself an edge I think, which adds up after alot of games.


----------



## Fjones

Hypnotik1 said:


> Anyone care to share their strategy in 'Heads Up' play?
> 
> Its where I really struggle....I like to play Sit n Go's and most of the time i finish in the top 3 but i rarely win. I just really suck head up. I seems to me, especially when playing a real aggressive player, that its just a crap shoot.
> 
> So how do yall play?



If you run into an aggressive player, you are probably screwed.  Ath tat point, it is largely am atter of who starts with more chips.  I excel at the HU portion of the SNG because I rarely run into an aggressive player.  People play so passively that I just run them over.  
When I run into someone who plays like I do, I curse and do the best I can.  If you or tyour opponent are at or below ten big blinds, you should probably be moving all in anytime you play a hand.  

Also, limping in HU play is not a good play.


----------



## Hypnotik1

Hmmm....

Great advice....I tried it out a few games and it def makes a diff....

It also helps if i keep this mind set where im already down to the final 2...and the pots are 20, 30, 50 ...So ive already won a good chunk of change....So screw it...go balls to wall!! %)


----------



## Fjones

AAARGH!  

I finished deep (final 4 tables) out of 1482 players in the 35K guarantee.  How many times do I have to make the top 2 % of the field before I win one of these damn things?  

I busted out on a dumb hand too, falling for the AA limp under the gun.


----------



## Fjones

I am usually cautious also.  I checked in the BB with KJ.  The button had limped also.  Flop came King rag rag and by the time I bet and the UTG limper raised, I thought I was pot committed.  I started the hand short stacked and I didn't feel like waiting any more.   Overall it was a very annoying session with a lot of frustrating losses.  But it is still a huge month.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Fjones said:


> AAARGH!
> 
> 30th out of 1482 in the 35K guarantee.  How many times do I have to make the top 2 % of the field before I win one of these damn things?
> 
> I busted out on a dumb hand too, falling for the AA limp under the gun.



Sounds like me (at lower stakes). Can make top 20 or so reasonably easy, but just get back 4x buy-in. Having a hard time converting.

Quick bubble question: can I get away from this?

48 left of 430; 45 paid. I have KK in BB. BB is 2000, my stack is 50000 so M = ~15. I'm in 23rd. 

Shortstack goes all in from EP. He's a tight solid player who's been very unlucky (I've continually hit TPTK or overpair against him). He has 11000 chips. 

I'm all ready to call (his range is huge here, obbviously) when villain goes all-in. Villain has 48000 chips and I've hardly noticed him play a hand. He seems very tight.

If I call, I'm effectively out. If I win, I'm in 6th place. If I fold, 25th place.

He had AA. Can I/should I give him credit for this, or do I take the risk of calling and try to double up.


----------



## Fjones

No.  You cannot get away from that.  Folding KK pre flop is unacceptable.  Bubbling is irrelevant.  You are trying to win.  Players should be tryign to use the bubble to pick up chips by taking advantage of people who care about bubbling.  

In a large Multi-table tournament, the lowest prize is often not even double the buy-in, whereas the top few prizes are 100 - 300 buy-ins.  Passing up a chance to get a seat at the final table because you are worried about bubbling just doesn't make sense.  Play to win.


----------



## Infinite Jest

That's what I figured - even for a tight player, his range has to be JJ-AA plus AK, maybe AQ or TT or lower. So I'm ahead more than I'm behind. Thanks for the comments. (It's just easy to have regret when I'd basically played the whole tourney well, only to go out like that).


----------



## Fjones

I woudl put his range even lower.  The short stack could eb pushing a lot of hands because he is so depserate.  So, a bigger stack there might be willing to battle with a lot of hands, maybe as low as 88 or AT.  

I would get it in with QQ and AK without hesitation.  If I have AQ or JJ I probably curse and use time bank and eventually fold.


----------



## Fjones

I have folded KK pre flop 3 times in my life.  One time I was right (and it was for a substantial amount of money, two full buy ins at a NL cash game), one time I was dead wrong (he had pocket 8s, then when they rabbit hunted the flop and an 8 came out I had to endure a table of retards saying, "Good fold" while I felt sick to my stomach for folding KK to 88).  

But those weer both cash games.  The only other time I fodled it was in a STT on the first hand when I raised UTG to 45 (This was back when party poker had a 10 / 15 starting blind level) and someone in the blinds went all in.  I had seen people do that with aces so I folded.  Of course that is a horrendous fold.  He could have had just about anything.  I had just started playing online.


----------



## Max Power

There's nothing really you could do with that hand to not make you lose any money. It's a bad call that got rewarded.

The blinds being so high relative to the stack sizes, you can't really fold aces in that spot. Can't really play it safely for pot control, it's not deep enough.



*cliff notes:* cold deck


----------



## streezy

I made a lot of money playing online poker a few years ago, but I only played limit so I wouldn't get killed on shitty beats.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Sigh.  got fairly deep in 3r last night, but ran AA into K2.  I THINK I didn't raise enough, I will post hand history when I find it, it was really, pretty gross, but I guess I might of got greedy? dunno.



If you got action from K2 in a raised pot, I would say your raise was fine.  K2 outflops AA one time out of 28.7, or something like that.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Well, I think I raised way to little really, with the relative stack sizes, and the fact people are pretty bad limping out of position to begin with...  the fact I was in the SB and out of POS, I should of raised to something like 6299 or so, I mean, I WANT people with K2 to call here......  But then of course, you fear your going to lose customers.
> 
> My new conclusion, ^ cold deck as stated w/ a lil bit o greed on my part.  oh wells!
> 
> And my new conclusion on poker stars is KQ s/o is the new nuts.  People play it sooooooo bad online, they seriously play it like AKs.  I mean, its a GREAT hand agaisnt middle pairs, really no differnt from AK when up agaisnt a pair, but damn, It seems like if I am up agaisnt it I lose, but if im jamming with it I win.
> 
> Bodog Had K10 suited as the nuts
> Pstars has KQ



How can you say you raised too little?  You had around 22,000 and you raised to 4000.  His call is absurd.  As I said, he outflops you approximately 1 time out of 27 or 28.  He put in 1/7 of your stack pre flop when he is behind 26 times out of 27.  

As you said, you want action from K2, so why raise any more?


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> just the fact that there was 2 limpers before me, and I was out of POS.  I had around 54K at this point.
> 
> I mean, even with AA, you want to isolate right?  now a raise 2.5x would not be a good idea here, as the BB and two limpers are sure to call.  I guess the fact I just got one caller is fine, just got unlucky



Oops, my fault.  His stack was 22 K, not yours.  It is a bit confusing since the whole HH is not there.  I would say raise to 5500 or 6000, but really, who cares?  You want action and you got it.


----------



## Fjones

So I am playing some $69 45 mans tonight as usual.  I get to the final 4 and push aganist what looked like a blind steal but he had a hand.  The flop was a disaster, leaving me with little chance to win.  

But, well.... I'll just let the picture tell the rest of the story (I am in the 6 oclock position).


----------



## Fjones

I try to avoid playing live poker.  I do dumb things out of boredom.  Live poker is excruciatingly boring for me and I try to make it exciting.   I am profitable, but only marginally so.  Since I can make $50 an hour online, why waste time playing live?  

I have cost myself some potential top 3 finishes in live events by getting impatient and pushing too early.  people are clueless about M or BBs in their stack or pushing ranges or whatever.  Some will blind out rather than adjust their pushing range.  It annoys the piss out of me.  Someone will push 3 big blinds from late position and I call with any 2 from the big blind.  Of course the guy has a monster hand somehow when he SHOULD be pushing any two cards, and now the table gasps and thinks I am a donk.  Now when I open pots they think I have crap, which I usually do, because these jerkoffs are sitting there in a circle jerk walking each other instead of playing poker.  AAAAARGH!


----------



## Fjones

Small world!  

Ok, my poker post today is a pet peeve.  Having cluttered the Second Opinion pet peeve threads already, I figured I'd put on here as well.  

What the fuck is up with these assholes who get all in on an obvious all in situation with a slightly better hand and then act like they are fucking Phil Hellmuth or something? 

I ship 77 in an obvious push situation.  The guy calls with 88 in an obvious call situation.  He thinks he is go great at poker because we are playing the same range of hands but his is slightly better.  Now I hit a 7 and he goes on a tirade against the "lucky donks" who stop him from being a winning player.  He goes on at length about how he would be so profitable if not for people sucking out on him.  

It would be funny if the person were joking, but sadly, he is almost always serious.  I mean really man, do you think you are so much better than I am because your hand was one unit better?  

Recently someone pushed 4 Big blinds into my BB and I called with K8 (for half my stack).  The guy pushing SHOULD be pushing any 2.  I cal with K8 all day.  He happens to show up with ace 8.  Now some losing player ridicules me.  "King 8?  For half your stack!?  You fucking fish!"  Then I beat him in a hand and he continues berating me.  "You lucky donk!"  I tell him off, and he says, "Shut up you fish.  I see how bad you play.  K8  LOL!"  

Yes, KING 8 you ignorant fucking asshole.  Why not check the stats and see that I have won more money than you ever have or will before lecturing me on how to play poker?  

Why do losing players insult and lecture other poker players?  Doesn't it occur to them that maybe my play looks stupid because they don't understand the game well enough to understand my play?  

I split my poker playing between two accounts, which is a shame, because the stats would be for more dominant if I could combine the stats from both accounts.  Alas.


----------



## Infinite Jest

^
Yeah, or someone told me 'lucky catch' when I'd had JJ preflop against AQ or something, he flopped the Q and I rivered him. I was a favourite when the money went in you dipshit. 

Some other fool told me I was an idiot for pushing A4 (low M situation), then when I pushed QQ or something and got caught by a worse hand he continued telling me I was an idiot (for pushing QQ against JJ). I tried to get him to play me heads-up, but he wouldn't. 

The other good one is people callng each other donks at the levels I play at (mainly $2-5). We're *all *donks at that level, comparatively...


----------



## alasdairm

Fjones said:


> Why do losing players insult and lecture other poker players?


it's not just losing players... i see miserable attitude from winning players too. some of these guys only seem to know two bets: check and all-in and, when they take a pot - no matter the size, they gloat and berate the other players in the hand like they're the world champion. the fact that they're playing a $2 or $5 tourney doesn't seem to click.



i pretty much always switch off the chat these days. this is why i much prefer playing in the casino. the experience is more enjoyable purely because of the setting: real chips; dealer; felt; etc. and, generally, even when people are losing, the chit chat is very civil.

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

hey fjones - i notice you use a four colour deck. do you find it makes a big difference? do you prefer it, generally, to a regular deck?

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

me? you, perhaps 

i have been playing cards for a long time and i've never mistaken a card. i'll typically play between 1 and 4 windows simultaneously. i actually find the 4-colour decks distracting. 

alasdair


----------



## Mugz

Im playing a bit of online poker now, a cash game $0.50/$1 blinds no limit holdem. I think the main key to cash games online is patience and not much bluffing at all. 

I got fucked over in a tourney earlier, it was a $3 rebuy which i had about 15 rebuys into and was doing pretty well untill my stack got severly shorted when i put someone all in when i had QQ and he had JJ and he hit runner runner straight to win the hand, from thereon in there was no chance of me getting back with the blinds as they were. Would have been nice to win the $8000 first prize but theres always another day . 

Doing well on the cash tables so far, patience is the key and ive made about $40 in a couple of hours work.

Cash games arent as fun as tournies but theyre still good to play IMO


----------



## Mugz

i dont ever play 6 max, only full ring games. In live casino play i agree that agression is the way forward but it doesnt seem to work very well online at the stakes im playing, patience does at these stakes online.

edit - when i get a hand online i will play it agressively, but only if i thnk i am almost certain to win it

edit 2 - or even if i dont think i have the best hand but the opponent after the flop is showing weakness i will continue agressively to try and win.

and im always wary of slow playing online more than in live games


----------



## Mugz

had a nice hand earlier where everyoen was raising it all up preflop and i had aces in the hole, so i pushed all in $60, the prev raise was $15, and i got two callers, one had AK the other had 99, obviously i didnt know this until the end of the hand. Ended up hitting my ace on the turn to get trips and all was well, all but tripled up


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> hahahahaha, isn't it great though?  A common trend amongst douche's who cry about everything are that they all suck terribly and 99% of them have no bankroll.  If you go and play small buy in sngs, im talking 1-10$ range, people are such complete assholes!  They seriously think they are amazingly GREAT, they are just down right mean!
> 
> Get up into, i'd say, oh 50$ and higher range, and people aren't nearly as douchebaggy.



I guess, though I play $75 games and people are the same way, though maybe not as much.  

I hate it when people berate a fish though for a bad play.  Why would someone do that?  Does he want to fish to sto playing?  Or to improve?  I hav actually seen people explain advanced concepts in great detail because they are pissed about losing a hand.  

One player was talking about how bad a play was and exactly why it was bad, and I immediately sided with the fish and told the sdhark to STFU.  Why the hell would you educate your opponents?


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> ^
> Yeah, or someone told me 'lucky catch' when I'd had JJ preflop against AQ or something, he flopped the Q and I rivered him. I was a favourite when the money went in you dipshit.
> 
> Some other fool told me I was an idiot for pushing A4 (low M situation), then when I pushed QQ or something and got caught by a worse hand he continued telling me I was an idiot (for pushing QQ against JJ). I tried to get him to play me heads-up, but he wouldn't.
> 
> The other good one is people callng each other donks at the levels I play at (mainly $2-5). We're *all *donks at that level, comparatively...



Agreed.  People talking smack and giving lessons at the small stakes games is hilarious.  

Problem is, everyone thinks he is good at poker.  Few players realize they suck.  Peopel do not realize how difficult this game is.  because of the rake, the AVERAGE player is minus 10% ROI.    Winning players consistently beat the games for 20% ROI, or much more if they play large multis, so there are a lof of people out there who are well in the negative.  


This is a game where being in the top 1% is not good enough.  I consistently rank 99.something on OPR and I still haven't made it big.  To really make it big, one has to be in the top 1/10 of the top 1% and be ranked 99.9something on OPR.


----------



## Fjones

alasdairm said:


> hey fjones - i notice you use a four colour deck. do you find it makes a big difference? do you prefer it, generally, to a regular deck?
> 
> alasdair



Not only do I prefer it, I use it exclusively.  I own "IRL" 4 color decks and I use them for bridge, spades, hearts, poker, or whatever.  

A two color deck puts me on severe tilt.  Why the hell would two different suits be the same color?  It was an error on the part of whoever invented cards.  There is no reason to have a two color deck, it flies in the face of all logic.  If cards had ALWAYS had four colors, and someone suggested a two color deck, he would be laughed out of the room for saying something so absurd.  

Yet because peopel are usesd to two colors, they think four is weird.  It's just like the US measurement system.  It is a riduclous system that makes little sense, yet we use it becasue people are accustomed to it, even thoug the metric system is approximatly a trillon times better (give or take a few billion).


----------



## Fjones

Whaaaaaat?  A million of free cash?   Huh?  Which site??  Poker Stars?


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Oh yeah, and Fjones, did you know your registered for some tournies on FTP that your not playing?  2 free roll tournies, one for a seat to sunday million, actually 8 seats.



Yeah, I always seem to miss that stupid rakeupdate freeroll and then I had a rough weekend with some adulterated rolls and I have felt like shit for two days, so I haven't even logged in.  I wasted a valuable entry to the world series qualifier.  Damnit.


----------



## Fjones

I think I get what you are saying.  If I am in the big blind and I have 30% of my chips in as the BB, I am probably going with my hand.  Whether it is by means of a shove or flat calling and shoving the flop isn't really important.  The guy isn't likely to fold either way in either case.  

I just had an excruciating session to close out the month.  I feel like smashing things.  I must have lost 80% of my VPIP and another bunch of non-VPIP hands as well.


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## Fjones

ha ha ha.  The second definition of MUBS is hilarious.  But yeah, I whiffed about 32 in a row earlier and might have had some MUBS also (I call it "passive tilt."  

It ended up being only 28 in a row, as I ended up with a cash that happened after some busts but started before the busts.  


Passive tilt is a difficult thing to do with.  Combined on my two accounts, I have killed these 45 man SNGS for 

2,869 games
$24,500
$8.54 profit per game
4 to 5 games per hour
and an overall ROI of 25.7%

These re stellar numbers that indicate a potential for making $75,000 a year at those stakes, and $120,000 a year at the stakes I currently play.  And it is not based on a small sample.  

YET -- 

When I go through one of my losing streaks where I lose 30 in a row, I just feel like I don't know how to play poker.  it is very frustrating and makes me want to quit.  

Nothing works.  Everything goes wrong.  Hands are lost in the most bizarre manner possible.  

It is NOT an easy thing to do with.  The highs are great and the lows are soul crushing.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> ^ Such a sick game.  My friend quit a VERY good job at IBM to go pro, and was crushing the 12$ 180 sngs on pstars.  The 600-1000$ swings would absolute anihilate his soul, and he would always question weather he knew how to play poker.
> 
> I don't take the swings you all do, and unfortunately, these MTsngs just seem to have crushing swings.
> 
> Those are sick stats Fjones!!  25.7 ROI is amazing, hope you keep at it, just keep your head up, you can do it!  Just keep your head straight, battle through those downswings.
> 
> You play non turbos right?
> 
> I went on pretty bad tilt tonight and put about 75% of my bankroll on the line playing double or nothings.  I threw in some 20$ DONS and a 50$ don along with 10 tabling alot of 5-10$ DONS, and it made me want to puke losing every 10$ don and crushing the 5$ dons.
> 
> I had a CRUSHING bubble on a 20$ that would of helped put me up 90$ after I was SUPER short, with like 550 chips with 1010.  the bubble boy put in his stack which was like 480 and the BB was 400.  one other guy called and I called to check it down.
> 
> The board ran out A 3 2 5... 4...  And what made me puke was the fact the ALL had 106, and the guy that checked it down with me had 44.  $*&UHFDI  Needless to say I BUBBLED, and turned a tilty session into a +35$ session, sigh.
> 
> Good luck all.
> 
> And one more thing I would like to say in regards to the insaneness of KQ, no matter if you got 2nd nuts or how good your hand is, KQ is ALWAYS the nuts. Period.
> 
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to Hero [As Ac]
> avvvvvvv: folds
> 77Dozer77: folds
> willsy123: folds
> mehotplay: calls 100
> pepel2: folds
> slydnrid has timed out while disconnected
> slydnrid: folds
> slydnrid is sitting out
> iK1NG DAV1Di: calls 100
> slydnrid is connected
> slydnrid has returned
> senton: folds
> Hero: raises 200 to 300
> kels1000: folds
> mehotplay: calls 200
> iK1NG DAV1Di: calls 200
> *** FLOP *** [Ad Th 6h]
> Hero: checks
> mehotplay: checks
> iK1NG DAV1Di: checks
> *** TURN *** [Ad Th 6h] [2s]
> Hero: bets 500
> mehotplay: calls 500
> iK1NG DAV1Di: folds
> *** RIVER *** [Ad Th 6h 2s] [Js]
> Hero: bets 535 and is all-in
> mehotplay: calls 535
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> Hero: shows [As Ac] (three of a kind, Aces)
> mehotplay: shows [Qh Kh] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
> mehotplay collected 3170 from pot
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Total pot 3170 | Rake 0



Wow.  that A 2 3 4 5 hand is ridiculous.  That kind of shit tilts me to no end.  

I hate when on the bubble, one short stack after another survives an all in, forcing me not to play medium strength hands that I woudl play once the bubble breaks.


----------



## Fjones

Swings SUCK.  My earnigns were around 8K for the month, but then on the last day of the month I managed this "streak"






I cash one tiem out of 6, on average.  so the odds of busting in any tournament are 5/6.  

The odds of busting 30 times in a row are (5/6) ^ 30 which is .004 or 1 out of 250.  

I think I have had a handful of such streaks, which makes sense since I have played over 2500 games.  

I think I lost 40 in a row at one point.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> I hate when on the bubble, one short stack after another survives an all in



Hehe. In regards to that, I'm not sure if I played this hand right.. Would appreciate any critique you guys want to give... 

Venser666 was surviving w/ ridiculous hands and I was getting low on chips. 

*DoN Turbo*
PokerStars Game #27701287658: Tournament #160187265, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2009/05/01 13:42:59 ET
Table '160187265 1' 10-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 3: prebenhs (2122 in chips) 
Seat 4: NikolasM7 (1685 in chips) 
Seat 6: Venser666 (525 in chips) 
Seat 7: sven meijer (6712 in chips) 
Seat 8: Merzayn (2156 in chips) 
Seat 9: elfxb vyt (1800 in chips) 
prebenhs: posts the ante 40
NikolasM7: posts the ante 40
Venser666: posts the ante 40
sven meijer: posts the ante 40
Merzayn: posts the ante 40
elfxb vyt: posts the ante 40
prebenhs: posts small blind 200
NikolasM7: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
*Dealt to NikolasM7 [Td Ts]*
Venser666: folds 
sven meijer: calls 400
Merzayn: folds 
elfxb vyt: folds 
prebenhs: folds 
NikolasM7: raises 1245 to 1645 and is all-in
sven meijer: calls 1245
*** FLOP *** [3d Qc 5s]
*** TURN *** [3d Qc 5s] [3h]
*** RIVER *** [3d Qc 5s 3h] [7h]*** SHOW DOWN ***
NikolasM7: shows [Td Ts] (two pair, Tens and Threes)
sven meijer: shows [8h Qd] (two pair, Queens and Threes)


Villain is getting roughly 2:1 on pot odds. Does that make sense for him to call w/ 1 face card? Is me checking here an option? He was the big stack also and probably wanted to gamble to knock out the 6th player. I guess I could've waited for the blinds to reach the short stack? But if he survived, I basically would've had to shove before the blinds reached me again. So I figured 10s was good enough to shove with. At least I was ahead when the money went in.


----------



## Fjones

2 to 1 odds if enough to call in almost any situation with any 2 cards.  WIth his stack, he can do whatever he wants.  I think the DON tournaments are just silly.  This isn't real poker.  The only thing I might suggest doing it, check from the BB there and move in on a flop with undercards, check/fold if overcards.  

But again, I hate these.  I do not want toever play a game where I have to fold TT in the big blind when I have 4 big blinds.


----------



## muntedmunter

Just found this thread...

I have been playing online poker for only two years now but over the past year I have really improved my game by looking at my stats on HEM and my graph on sharkscope which is due to a heap of practice and a heap of studying and reading books about the game. 

After each session I usually go over my hand histories and evaluate each play where I lost or won a big pot, if I had no idea how to play it or what I did wrong I'd post it in a poker forum and get help with it, a lot of hard work I put in to it but I think it's paid off, well, so far. 

I started at 5/10c ring games and now I have a good enough bank roll to play the 1/2 mainly and 2/4.00 ring games most nights when I am free. If you are serious about your poker and you think you know what you're doing it's best to start at 5/10c NL because they actually respect your raises there where as at the mico mico stakes people call just about anything and imo those games rely on luck.

I mainly play on stars but some weeks I cop massive downswings which is expected in poker because of variance and when I do I head to cake, boyles, betfair etc - -  all the MUCH softer poker sites.

Stars and FTP have the most sharks and the games in NL holdem are very hard, especially this year, the game keeps getting better and better. If you go to a smaller poker site you will find a heap more 'fish' and a lot less sharks. The bad side is that the withdrawal options and deposit options are a bit of a bitch compared to stars and ftp.

My aim is to move up to 3/6.00 and play that all the time on stars by the end of the year, just need to build the bank roll up more before I take that step, and I am pretty shit at bank roll management to most of the guys I know on stars who play those limits.

Sorry if that sounded arrogant in anyway, I hope it didn't, I will post my bad beats later on, I suppose I just wanted to say that if you're interested in the game and keen for it you can read a lot of books, study your hand histories, get help, watch training videos, practice and it all pays off in the long run.

Even though I will probably get home drunk one night and blow my entire roll on stars this wkend... haah

So this hand happened as I was typing this and thought I'd ask here...

My read on Villain:

Villain is running about 21/17/2.2 over 2.4k hands. Not too much history with villain but through out the match he has been pretty aggressive and I have 3bet him a few times where he has folded.

This is one of those spots where calling flop seems standard but at the same time villain is prob betting turn most of the time (at least I would assume so)

I do not know what villain's exact line is going to be on turn and river, but if he bets turn I have to consider the fact that he may barrel the river as well which is going to leave me in an awkward spot. 

I took out what I did, so any opinions on what I should of done would be great, cheers.

Actually I will skip that because well I dunno if anyone would be interested in helping me with it on this forum and I also wouldn't want members from the poker forums I am on to find out I hang on this site, 

Anyway I have said to much and probably shouldn't have even found a poker thread on this forum when I am on here for a totally different reason, lol.

HHs will be posted if anyone is keen on helping me with some.

Cheers,

MM


----------



## muntedmunter

> Villain is getting roughly 2:1 on pot odds. Does that make sense for him to call w/ 1 face card? Is me checking here an option? He was the big stack also and probably wanted to gamble to knock out the 6th player. I guess I could've waited for the blinds to reach the short stack? But if he survived, I basically would've had to shove before the blinds reached me again. So I figured 10s was good enough to shove with. At least I was ahead when the money went in.



In a tournament like that you actually couldn't of played that hand any better... You need to insta shove when you have any good cards before the blinds eat you up... Even though he is getting 2:1 odds his call was nothing but a donk call, he was hoping to get lucky, you played it well and he got lucky, end of story.

The only reason I can see him calling you on this is if you built up a rep on your table of raising shit hands and going all in a few times where everyone has folded.

If you go all in 3 times in a row or within 10 minutes they're going to call you the 4th time because it's so unlikely you have got KK, 100, AJ etc etc that many times in 10 mins so he might of thought he had an alright hand if you did that a few times.

You should go in the MTTs 2.20 and up if you are confident with your game, in those games you don't usually get those sort of players unless they're drunk or pissed off.


----------



## muntedmunter

> Swings SUCK.  My earnigns were around 8K for the month, but then on the last day of the month I managed this "streak"



I am having a pretty shit cooler at the moment, well for the past week on stars, when I was on a sik heater like two weeks ago, lol... Stupid poker!

I was playing heads up NL200 on stars and was down 2 and a bit buy-ins within an hour or two to the same guy, looking over my hands it's just so frustrating like this one hand I had a king high flush on the flop..

I check, he raises, I flat call the turn comes 5d, I raise, he calls the river is 4 of clubs, I bet, he goes all in, I call...

He had ONE fucken ace of clubs.............. and beat me! Aghhhhh....

Never even thought of chasing him away when there was only one card in the deck that could beat me...


----------



## Bedhead

Man, been running bad lately. Just found out router crashing puts me on tilt. 

I have a question about a hand that I think I'm not sure I played correctly. I'm not sure in general how to play these hands. Villian is loose. That's about all I have on him. He called to showdown w/ bottom pair... 

PokerStars Game #27913347749: Tournament #161669258, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/05/07 3:14:21 ET
Table '161669258 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Blizard1986 (2810 in chips)
Seat 2: Tigermama69 (1325 in chips)
Seat 3: MÃTTYJ (1475 in chips)
Seat 4: Skulk20 (2410 in chips)
Seat 6: skbndi (1350 in chips)
Seat 7: Tyhudg (1740 in chips)
Seat 8: boutzi (830 in chips)
*Seat 9: NikolasM7 (1560 in chips)*
Tyhudg: posts small blind 15
boutzi: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
*Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kh Jc]*
NikolasM7: raises 60 to 90
Blizard1986: folds
Tigermama69: folds
MÃTTYJ: folds
Skulk20: calls 90
skbndi: calls 90
Tyhudg: folds
boutzi: folds
*** FLOP *** [3s 2h Kc]
NikolasM7: bets 150
Skulk20: calls 150
skbndi: folds
*** TURN *** [3s 2h Kc] [8s]
NikolasM7: bets 330
Skulk20: raises 440 to 770
NikolasM7: folds
Uncalled bet (440) returned to Skulk20
Skulk20 collected 1275 from pot

If he had KK/AA/AK he would've RR me preflop I'm guessing? Maybe just called w/ AK. I'm just trying to figure out what he would RR me on the turn with, and the best I can come up with is K8. I'm just trying to figure out how I could've played this hand better. Should I have just have called PF? What's the best way to play TP OOP on a non-scary board HU? Bet pot on the flop? Check? Should I not have bet on the turn? Betting the flop and checking the turn looks weak though, doesn't it? 

I can't see him having anything other than K8. Maybe pocket 8s, 'cuz he RR w/ trips on the flop w/ another hand, and he could've just made a donk call. Should I have bet more on the flop like 2/3 or pot and try and take it down? I don't know... I feel like if I bet the flop I have to bet the turn? Not really sure how I should've played this...


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Man, been running bad lately. Just found out router crashing puts me on tilt.
> 
> I have a question about a hand that I think I'm not sure I played correctly. I'm not sure in general how to play these hands. Villian is loose. That's about all I have on him. He called to showdown w/ bottom pair...
> 
> PokerStars Game #27913347749: Tournament #161669258, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/05/07 3:14:21 ET
> Table '161669258 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
> Seat 1: Blizard1986 (2810 in chips)
> Seat 2: Tigermama69 (1325 in chips)
> Seat 3: MÃTTYJ (1475 in chips)
> Seat 4: Skulk20 (2410 in chips)
> Seat 6: skbndi (1350 in chips)
> Seat 7: Tyhudg (1740 in chips)
> Seat 8: boutzi (830 in chips)
> *Seat 9: NikolasM7 (1560 in chips)*
> Tyhudg: posts small blind 15
> boutzi: posts big blind 30
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> *Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kh Jc]*
> NikolasM7: raises 60 to 90
> Blizard1986: folds
> Tigermama69: folds
> MÃTTYJ: folds
> Skulk20: calls 90
> skbndi: calls 90
> Tyhudg: folds
> boutzi: folds
> *** FLOP *** [3s 2h Kc]
> NikolasM7: bets 150
> Skulk20: calls 150
> skbndi: folds
> *** TURN *** [3s 2h Kc] [8s]
> NikolasM7: bets 330
> Skulk20: raises 440 to 770
> NikolasM7: folds
> Uncalled bet (440) returned to Skulk20
> Skulk20 collected 1275 from pot
> 
> If he had KK/AA/AK he would've RR me preflop I'm guessing? Maybe just called w/ AK. I'm just trying to figure out what he would RR me on the turn with, and the best I can come up with is K8. I'm just trying to figure out how I could've played this hand better. Should I have just have called PF? What's the best way to play TP OOP on a non-scary board HU? Bet pot on the flop? Check? Should I not have bet on the turn? Betting the flop and checking the turn looks weak though, doesn't it?
> 
> I can't see him having anything other than K8. Maybe pocket 8s, 'cuz he RR w/ trips on the flop w/ another hand, and he could've just made a donk call. Should I have bet more on the flop like 2/3 or pot and try and take it down? I don't know... I feel like if I bet the flop I have to bet the turn? Not really sure how I should've played this...




I stopped reading here --

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NikolasM7 [Kh Jc]
NikolasM7: raises 60 to 90


I don't even care about the rest.  On an error scale of 1 to 10, opening KJ utg rates somewhere around 8.  Fold it, this time and every time.  I don't hesitate to throw away AJ there most of the time.  

What are you expecting to happen?  You cannot stand a reraise, you are likely  dominated by most hands that call an utg raise, and you are badly out of position for the hand.


----------



## Fjones

open limping utg at the early levels is not somehting one should be doing with ANY hand.  if the PP is good enough to play, raise, otherwise, fold.   Limp calling raises OOP with small pockets makes little sense.  

And yes, what nguboi said about KJ.  just fold it.  I don't care if I am on the button, what is the point of playing that hand at the 15 30 level?


----------



## Fjones

Mini FTOPS?  You mean like this one?   This was 3.5 hours in, approaching the "money."

Full Tilt Poker Game #12074357332: MiniFTOPS Event #1 (84239296), Table 2077 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:23:35 ET - 2009/05/07
Seat 1: Spartan_Mark (65,999)
Seat 2: FJones (12,999)
Seat 3: noainc (22,315)
Seat 4: jbcool2020 (47,565)
Seat 5: zekh95 (8,720)
Seat 6: Wildcard2469 (54,128)
Spartan_Mark antes 100
FJones antes 100
noainc antes 100
jbcool2020 antes 100
zekh95 antes 100
Wildcard2469 antes 100
Spartan_Mark posts the small blind of 400
FJones posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FJones [Js 6h]
noainc folds
jbcool2020 folds
zekh95 folds
Wildcard2469 folds
Spartan_Mark calls 400
FJones checks
*** FLOP *** [4s Jd 9d]
Spartan_Mark checks
FJones bets 1,600
Spartan_Mark calls 1,600
*** TURN *** [4s Jd 9d] [Ts]
Spartan_Mark bets 5,400
FJones raises to 10,499, and is all in
Spartan_Mark has 15 seconds left to act
Spartan_Mark has requested TIME
Spartan_Mark calls 5,099
FJones shows [Js 6h]
Spartan_Mark shows [7h 4h]
*** RIVER *** [4s Jd 9d Ts] [4d]
FJones shows two pair, Jacks and Fours
Spartan_Mark shows three of a kind, Fours
Spartan_Mark wins the pot (26,398) with three of a kind, Fours
FJones stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 26,398 | Rake 0
Board: [4s Jd 9d Ts 4d]
Seat 1: Spartan_Mark (small blind) showed [7h 4h] and won (26,398) with three of a kind, Fours
Seat 2: FJones (big blind) showed [Js 6h] and lost with two pair, Jacks and Fours
Seat 3: noainc folded before the Flop
Seat 4: jbcool2020 folded before the Flop
Seat 5: zekh95 folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Wildcard2469 (button) folded before the Flop


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> ^haha yeah, like that.  man sorry, brutal beat there.  I think I have to make a new FTP name, I cant even log onto to play cause it says my account is suspended? wth.  This is the 3rd time this has happened to me on differnt sites and it makes no sense.
> 
> Im really down to play those mini Ftops.  Are you by any chance a PLO / 8 or better player fjones?



Whaaaat !?? why do they keep doing that?  And yes, I used to main PLO 8 before I got sick of how few games of it there are.  I was on the skarkscope leaderboard briefly under my other name.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> I have played 94 sit n goes the last 4 days and have not won a single sit n go.  I have only lost 34$ playing 10-22$ sit n goes.
> 
> This about sums out why I cant win a fucking sit n go
> 
> *** HOLE CARDS ***
> Dealt to Hero [As Ah]
> Longort: folds
> stoneskull: raises 3875 to 4475 and is all-in
> ddass: folds
> Hero: calls 1410 and is all-in
> Uncalled bet (2465) returned to stoneskull
> *** FLOP *** [4d Kc 8s]
> *** TURN *** [4d Kc 8s] [6c]
> *** RIVER *** [4d Kc 8s 6c] [6d]
> *** SHOW DOWN ***
> Hero: shows [As Ah] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
> stoneskull: shows [6h Ac] (three of a kind, Sixes)
> ddass said, "LOL"
> stoneskull collected 4520 from pot



ugh.  epic bad beat!  and some clown says LOL.  that drives me fucking insane.

you have zero wins but are only down $34?


----------



## Fjones

*Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrghhhhhhhh!*

DENIED AGAIN!  

Throw me a fucking bone!!!!  

So close to a big score and my first big tournament win on full tilt.  I play mostly 45 mans so I don't have a chance to take a 5K first prize all that often.  

I got all in with a better hand and the flop was clean with a flush draw for me (and him, but his was worse) but the turn brought the dagger.


----------



## Fjones

I play STTs the same way you do. I try to cash then I go balls to the wall trying for 1st.  I just found STTs too frustrating.  The ROI is so low, and they don't go that much faster than 45 mans.  

I am rally upset with full tilt right now.  I cannot 9 table because of their new upgrade.  When you move tables now, it opens a new one in a different spot on the screen, instead of on top of the old one.  So, my 3 X 3 grid is ruined and I have to manage this 10th table, close the old one that I am no longer at, and then resize the 10th and slide it in the old slot.  But now the software doesn't "know" I have a table there, since it wasn't placed automatically with the custom layout, so new games open underneath it.  

I am on a 40 buy-in downswing at 45 mans right now.  Yuck.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Hey! looking good Fjones! keep it up bro!



I am actually on  one of the worst downswings of my career.  But I am happy I can say that while still having a 5,400 month.  Rakeback provides another 600. 

Apparently freerolls count against rakeback.  What a crock.  So when I signed up for a world series freeroll and did not play, I lost $32 in rakeback.  What a waste.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Hey Jones, have you ever heard of FullTiltPlanner? http://overcards.com/wiki/moin.cgi/FullTiltPlanner
> 
> I think this will override their software and you will be able to place the tables where-ever you want.
> 
> Maybe I should play some more 45s.  I am sure they are just like the 180 man sngs, just really looking for monster hands then its all about shoving/stealing.  You play just non turbo 45 mans right?  I might look into it, what do you think about the turbo ones? how long do the 45 man non turbos last ?



I use FTS which I think is similar (Full tilt shortcuts).  I might need to tweak the settings.  

they do not have turbo 45 mans, though the levels are only 6 minutes, so in a way they are all turbos really.  But they have the same blind structure and time as the non turbo STTs.  

If I win a 45 man it usually takes an hour and 40 minutes.  On average they take aroudn an hour.  When I 8-table, I suaully average 5 per hour.  

The $69s are filled with clowns.  

today someone limp / snap called utg with 6 4 when I raised to 4X from the big blind.  This was at the final table and he called for 20% of his stack.  

In the first hand of a tournament, someone limped A5 utg, then snap called my raise to 4X, then min raised me on a flop of jack high (I had QQ), then he INSTANTLY called my all in.  HE INSTACALLED MY ALL IN DRAWING TO THREE OUTS!   In a $69 game! 

I have seen people call someone's raise with JT then call my all in with it also.  Peopel limp/call all ins like it's their job.  

The number of times today that I shook my head in utter disbelief is too many to count.


----------



## Fjones

I don't know how to explain it.  The STTS are shark tanks where grinders basically break even and play for rakeback.  But the 45 mans are filled with clowns.


----------



## Fjones

Everyone should write to Representative Frank and support the cause.   He is trying to undo the absurd last minute legislation enacted by the Bush Administration.  

Frank Unveils Internet Gambling Legislation

Washington, DC - Today, Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank (D-MA) unveiled legislation that would enable Americans to bet online and put an end to an inappropriate interference with their personal freedom. 

The Internet Gambling Regulation, Consumer Protection, & Enforcement Act of 2009 would establish a federal regulatory and enforcement framework under which Internet gambling operators could obtain licenses authorizing them to accept bets and wagers from individuals in the United States. The legislation comes in response to the enactment of Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA), which restricted the use of the payments system for Americans who gamble online. 

In addition, Chairman Frank announced today he is introducing separate legislation to delay the implementation of regulations pursuant to the 2006-passed UIGEA, which are set to go into effect December 1, 2009. The regulations were completed by the Bush Administration at the last minute, and the legislation will stop Federal regulators from enforcing the UIGEA until Congress has had a chance to decide national policy.


----------



## Fjones

What a fucking joke.  I am absolutely incensed right now.  Fuck all these asshoel politicisans who don't know a game of skill from a game of chance.  I fuckgin hope they all die in a fiery crash.  Seriosuly, LEAVWE MY BELOVED GAME ALONE!  WHat the fuck is wrong with these ignorant assholes?  How the fuck can anyone be usch an ignorant asshole?  poloticians should do thweur fuckign job instead of engaging in ridiculous crusades against law abduiign citizebns.  People want to know why I am so angry all the time?  THISI IS FUCKING WH Because some high ansd mighty ignaorant asshole politicans who have their heads stuck way up their asses are trying to ruin the game I love that enables me to make a living.  

FUCKING DIE IN A FIERY BLAZE ALREADY!  The world doesn't need your self righteous sanctimonious bullshit!  

Let's have one of these politicans play me in a series of poker games and we will see whether it is a game iof skill ro luck.  IW iwll fucking crush them.  

I am goign to vomit if I see another article state that "internet gamblign is illegal in 560 states.
"  NO IT IS NOT.  GET YOUR FUCKING FACTS STRAIGHT!  YOU ARE A FUCKIGN NEWS MEDIA OUTLET, Get your goddamn information staright befiore yopuo publich misniformation and disinfmrmation.  

If internet gamblign is illegel, NAME THE FUCKING LAW!  Oh, that's rightm, you can't, BECAUSE THWERE ISN"T ONE! NEVER HAS BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE!  

Hwo the fuckl do you pass an "unlawful internet gamnbling enforecement act" to enforce a NON EXISTENT FUCKING LAW???????????????????

I HATE POLOTICIANS AND THE GIVERMENT!@  THEY CAN ALL KISS MY ASS AND DIE! 

(Note -- I will edit this tomorropw whan I sm soberer.  Yeah, I know that probably isn't a word.  SO what.  Deal with it).


----------



## Fjones

There is some neat stuff on the PPA website about a study that was done over 103 million hands.  It showed how the winner of a hand is often not the person with the best cards, showing that it is clearly a game of skill.


----------



## Fjones

The losing continues unabated.  This is boggling my mind how unlucky I am getting. 

Today when I tried to open the lobby for Mini FTops 10 it crashed the full tilt program and ruined several poker games in progress.


----------



## Fjones

Getting "deep" in the miniFtops 10.  I made a donk play and got lucky and then got some hands.


----------



## Fjones

damn.  Why do people keep catching up?  Why can't uit just be "game over, you lose" and we get their chips????  

That AQ into AA was THIS tournament ????????????????

I  remember a hand where I was crippled with AQ into AA but I thought it was the deuce deuce.


----------



## Fjones

beer and liquor.  I feel like getting blasted tonight but I have nothing I feel like taking.  Pokr has been dreadful lately.  47 buy in downswing at the 45 mans.  How does a player with a 25% ROI and $25000 profit over 3000 games go on a 47 buy in downswing?


----------



## Fjones

This is a nightmare run.  I push AJ into JJ and AQ.  I push AQ into AK.  I push AK into AA.  My C bets fail.  People run straights and flushes on me in all ins.  I push pockets into bigger ones.  I push A8 into 99.  I get no action on QQ  KK  AA.  When I "C bet" and actually have the hand, peole fold.  I flop hands in the BB and get fucked.  I run AK into small pockets CONSTANTLY, and seriosuly whiffed about 18 AK in a row.  THey never have Ax.  But then I push QQ and KK and htey ALWAYS have Ax.  Peopel 3-bet me constantly.  I always get AA and KK Out of position, or in position but when someone else raised and no additional callers, so I ahev to 3 bet and give away my hand strength.  

AAAAAAAAAAARGh!


----------



## Infinite Jest

I'm getting beat by idiots, like the guy calling down to the river with A3 from the big blind on board of 422-K (two spades), calling big bets on every street then rivering the 5 and checking.

Or the guy who raised 10xBB with J4 suited from mid position then bet 1/3 his stack on the flop with a flush draw and called an all-in reraise. (I wasn't in the hand, it was just so stupid I have to post about it).

And yeah, running into AA with AK or KK all the time. (btw, if you've raised 3xBB with AK and someone re-raises all in, would you call? Mid-tourney, I had plenty of chips).


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> I'm getting beat by idiots, like the guy calling down to the river with A3 from the big blind on board of 422-K (two spades), calling big bets on every street then rivering the 5 and checking.
> 
> Or the guy who raised 10xBB with J4 suited from mid position then bet 1/3 his stack on the flop with a flush draw and called an all-in reraise. (I wasn't in the hand, it was just so stupid I have to post about it).
> 
> And yeah, running into AA with AK or KK all the time. (btw, if you've raised 3xBB with AK and someone re-raises all in, would you call? Mid-tourney, I had plenty of chips).



I don't fold AK pre flop unless it is an extreme situation (2 or more other players showing great strength, or soemthing crazy where both players are 100 big blinds deep and the odds are not great).  

Generally, by the time you figure out you are in trouble, you have too many chips invested to fold.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> nah, I think it was the mini ftops, cause that was all you were enrolled in when I was watching.  Its been a long damn day today.  but I like it, just gotta keep jamming in the volume -_-



You are right.  I was nearly felted very early, but made it to the top 1% of the field.  On the very next hand I tripled up with TT.  

Full Tilt Poker Game #12147960972: MiniFTOPS Event #10 (84242213), Table 651 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:41:20 ET - 2009/05/10
Seat 1: MrTangDK (8,756)
Seat 2: Hero (12,280)
Seat 3: Dawgphatt (29,492)
Seat 4: AAflushAA (64,362)
Seat 5: DiegoCardoso (52,976)
Seat 6: traiter (4,474)
Seat 7: RockstarRossi (14,717)
Seat 8: diamondmists (30,931)
Seat 9: McNallyville (39,853)
MrTangDK antes 75
Hero antes 75
Dawgphatt antes 75
AAflushAA antes 75
DiegoCardoso antes 75
traiter antes 75
RockstarRossi antes 75
diamondmists antes 75
McNallyville antes 75
RockstarRossi posts the small blind of 300
diamondmists posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Qc Ah]
McNallyville folds
MrTangDK raises to 1,200
Hero raises to 3,500
Dawgphatt folds
AAflushAA folds
DiegoCardoso folds
traiter folds
RockstarRossi folds
diamondmists folds
MrTangDK raises to 8,681, and is all in
Hero calls 5,181
MrTangDK shows [As Ac]
Hero shows [Qc Ah]
*** FLOP *** [2c 9s 6c]
*** TURN *** [2c 9s 6c] [Ts]
*** RIVER *** [2c 9s 6c Ts] [9h]
MrTangDK shows two pair, Aces and Nines
Hero shows a pair of Nines
MrTangDK wins the pot (18,937) with two pair, Aces and Nines
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 18,937 | Rake 0
Board: [2c 9s 6c Ts 9h]
Seat 1: MrTangDK showed [As Ac] and won (18,937) with two pair, Aces and Nines
Seat 2: Hero showed [Qc Ah] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 3: Dawgphatt folded before the Flop
Seat 4: AAflushAA folded before the Flop
Seat 5: DiegoCardoso folded before the Flop
Seat 6: traiter (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: RockstarRossi (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: diamondmists (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: McNallyville folded before the Flop


----------



## Fjones

Oh man. If I knew 5 years ago what I know now...... 

It took me 6 months to becoem break even and another 6 months to turn profit, and then I took most of the next two years off for various reasons.  So much lost time and money.  

Maybe I overplayed my AQ there, but shit, you gotta do something sometime.  That is the minimum hand I go with there and of course I run into top range.  AA should not show up there that often!  Ugh!


----------



## Fjones

What.... the.... hell !?????   Those are some godawful plays right there.  Wow.


----------



## Bill

lol donkaments


----------



## Heuristic

Fjones said:


> This is very true.  I hate many aspects of doing this.  But I cnanot think of any other way to make a minimum of $25 an hour, and I see the potential to make $50 an hour if I just get my shit together and stop wasting my bankroll on stupid shit.
> 
> I was never a fan of cash games.  I find them boring and irritating.
> 
> I started in the fall of 2004 on Party Poker when the site was still in its early stages, but I mostly dabbled for three years until the winter of 2007, when I started to play more seriously.
> 
> I think the games have gotten a bit tougher, but the fields are still pretty weak.
> 
> I never played on PokerStars.  I hate the interface.



This is a neat thread.  I enjoy poker myself.

Just one word of warning: it may be a little difficult, come tax time, to explain these earnings to the IRS.  I have no idea what the tax implications are, but it's something worth looking into before making this a primary form of income.

And anyone smart enough to play games like you all are is smart enough to find an occupation that pays $50 an hour, or much more.


----------



## Fjones

Is that legal?  

I didn't think gambling losses could be deducted from gambling winnings unless you file as a professional gamnbler.  

I have one cash in my last 52 games at the 45 man sngs.  AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGh!


----------



## Fjones

damn.  I wish I had 2000 FPPs on poker stars.  I have zero.  never played a real money hand.  

Wait, they allow you a chance to win 100,000 for 2000 FPPS !?   

On full tilt, it takes 4400 FTPs to play in the double deuce!  And it is harder to earn those points, from what I understand.  

I am tryign to use Hold Em Manager.  Seems like a pain in the ass.


----------



## Bedhead

You guys aren't the only ones running bad. 

QQ vs 32.. defending his blind? I dunno, lol... but turn is 3, river is a 3. 
AK into AQ... Flop comes AQx

Lost pretty much all my coin flips too.


----------



## Fjones

If I ever get it figured out I will let you know.  It is supposed to be better for tournaments. (this was in regard to Hold Em Manager)


----------



## Infinite Jest

Call me an idiot, but why would you re-raise all-in with AQo? Especially if he'd flat-called and then c-bet the flop, villain would surely have had to give him credit for the A?


----------



## Fjones

ehhhh.... 

I am hesitant to question the results of your friend, who has probably matched my career winnings many times over, but .....

How do you ship in 100 big blinds with AQ pre flop?


----------



## ||Monolithium025||

Call.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> 3 handed final table.  The name of the game when short handed is AGGRESSIVEEEEEEe.  I don't think anyone can fold AQ 3 handed, when 1 person folded.  In short, its impossible to put someone at the final table of a 6 max tourny 3 handed on exactly KK.
> 
> Its very typical, i mean, if you were playing someone heads up, would you ever fold AK-AQ to a raise?  Its impossible to put someone 3 handed on a huge pocket pair, because that same person would play probably 88-AA A8s-AK the exact same way.  Just very unfortunate for him to have AQ when he had KK there.
> 
> Also, they had been 3 handed for quite some time, and my friend knew how the opponent plays.  And sometimes, when you have a monster and want to induce an all in, you LIMP, knowing they will raise, only to 4 bet them all in.  This is the exact situation he wanted to be in.  Like when you have AA in the small blind, sometime you limp into the BB hopeing and praying hell just shove trying to steal, and you can trap em.
> 
> As we like to say, HOW THE FUCK can he have KK there!!!!!!
> 
> Kinda like when you are in the small blind with AKs and it folds to you, and you raise, and get re raised by the big blind, and you shove and he calls with AA.  you cant put him on exactly AA there, or any huge pocket pair, ya know what im saying?



It may be short handed, but it is NOT short stacked.  Although, I just realized I made an error.  I said 100 big blinds, but it is 50. The Limp was 1000, and the BB raised from 2000 to 10,000 right?  So the ship of 100,000 was for 50 big blinds, not 100.  Please excuse my error.  It is a bit confusing when only a partial HH is posted.  

If that is the case, I guess I am okay with it, sort of.  50 big blinds is still VERY deep though.  He 's not calling unless he has AK or a good pocket pair (99 and higher?  not sure where he would draw the line), so I am not sure if the push has value.  It's a tough situation though, so I can certainly understand.  The number of times I have folded AQ pre flop 3 handed in a tournament is probably zero.  

Then again, I cannot remember the last time I had 50 big blinds 3 handed and was faced with that kind of decision.  It probably has never come up.


----------



## Infinite Jest

nguboi said:


> 3 handed final table.  The name of the game when short handed is AGGRESSIVEEEEEEe.  I don't think anyone can fold AQ 3 handed, when 1 person folded.  In short, its impossible to put someone at the final table of a 6 max tourny 3 handed on exactly KK.



Oh, I certainly wouldn't fold, I'd probably flat call. I was wondering why the big push though. It seems to me that pushing 50xBB, you're only getting called by people who have you beat, or a coinflip. I'm figuring low pairs have to fold there. Mid pairs might call, AK calls, big pairs call. But weak aces probably don't, KQ probably doesn't, lower connectors don't. So one of two things happens: villain folds and hero wins about 10% of his stack, or villain calls and hero is probably a slight or big dog for all his chips.

That's the way it looks to my (noob) eyes. Obviously I don't have the same read on villain that hero would have. Thanks for responding.


----------



## Fjones

18000 in two weeks?  

I am envious!  

ok, ATs in the BB and someone shoves from the button, I am probably calling almost all the time.  I have too many tables going to bring up OPR on every player who shoves late position with 10 - 12 BB.  But yes, if the player is break even or better, it is an instacall.  

I use OPR a lot, but not for minor details like that one.  

uh... you found someone with 955K winnings and 350 K profit !? 

That is including large Multis right?  You mentioned it in the context of a STT, but I refuse to believe anyone has a 56% ROI in STTS with that large of a sample size.


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest, nguboi is right.  That you are thinking about the hand analytically shows that you are not a noob.  I like the flat call as well, especially since the hero in question is significantly better than the other players.  

I must correct something though -- 

"villain would surely have had to give him credit for the A?"

This doesn't entirely make sense, as there may or may not have been an ace on the flop had he flat called.  Unlike a "real" hand dealt with "real" cards, The flop is not predetermined. 

So, yes, if he flat calls AND there is an ace, he will be given credit for the ace.  But the flop could be queen high as well, which is a disaster.


----------



## Fjones

"official pokerrankings doesn't show single table sngs"

I see the confusion.  They do for full tilt players.  They track HU and STT SNGs.  I guess they do not for any other sites. 

Yeah, Shaundeeb...  I busted to him deep in the 750K on full tilt, losing a crucial coinflip for a big pot.  He went on to take 3rd.  Grrrr!


----------



## chinky

theres a nightly poker game at my buddies(bunch of us who graduated college but still dont have jobs) any way the last 2nights i just about killed somebody

im holding K-J .50 big blind i call ...dealer raised to 2.00 to go..the person in front of me calls and i call flop comes J-J-7. i check the person who raised bets the pot..the other guy fold i call..to make it short the turn and river come and im able to get all my chips in the middle thinking i was golden finally i push all in the fucker flips over pockt 7s...

next day playin again its getting late this kid whos a big fish was already down $120 but we keep him playin...this donkey goes all in with J-3 after the board hit like J-10-6..figureing he had nothing, with Q-J i called sure enough the board ended up pairing and we split the pot...very next hand he rivers quads to my fullboat and took my money...

between the 2night i only lost $100, i just played real good poker and took a couple bad beats..literally felt like i got bodied and just beat the fuck up


no poker for a week at least


----------



## Fjones

rough hands, but, limp calling a raise with KJ OOP is about as serious an error as you can make pre flop.  

Home games for .50 big blinds are not going to be very serious though.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Fjones said:


> "official pokerrankings doesn't show single table sngs"
> 
> I see the confusion.  They do for full tilt players.  They track HU and STT SNGs.  I guess they do not for any other sites.
> 
> Yeah, Shaundeeb...  I busted to him deep in the 750K on full tilt, losing a crucial coinflip for a big pot.  He went on to take 3rd.  Grrrr!



pwned by TedsFishFry


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

don't limp call oop with KJ!


----------



## Fjones

This is not directed at anyone in particular, just a general note about "running bad."  I have seen some complaints about running bad that don't really meet the criteria.  If you lose 8 in a row, you are not running bad.  Losing with KK twice does not constitute running bad.  

If you run like this seen here, THAT is running bad.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> hahahaha, hes so good, and running so hot, I really wonder what it feels like to be the craziest/best poker player online at any one time.
> 
> His poker savvy videos are insane, I saw him lose on the final table bubble of a tounry once calling an all in with 10 5s for a 1st place stack.  PLAY FTW!



Do you have a link for the site that hosts the videos?  I was thinking about checking out to see what they are like.  Sharkscope has some interesting ones too.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Fjones said:


> This is not directed at anyone in particular, just a general note about "running bad."  I have seen some complaints about running bad that don't really meet the criteria.  If you lose 8 in a row, you are not running bad.  Losing with KK twice does not constitute running bad.
> 
> If you run like this seen here, THAT is running bad.



That is pretty brutal.  How are you dealing with that, Fjones?


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

there are no antes in 45 man SNGs


----------



## Fjones

On Full tilt, that is correct, there are no antes.  Do they have antes on Stars?


----------



## Fjones

sample size.  variance.  For a 180 man SNG, 400 played is a very small sample.  

What is a good ROI at those?  How long do they take?  I can't see how they are all that profitable.  Do they run higher than $12?


----------



## Fjones

that is fluky.  

The 180 man SNGS finish in an hour and a half !???? 

The 45 mans that I play never finish in an hour and a half.  I guess the antes make a huge difference.  

But wait... an hour and a half for a 180 man tournament?  That just sounds impossible.  How fast and often do the blinds go up?  

I finally got HEM working and analyzed my play during this dreadful losing streak......

and....  

As far as I can tell, there is nothing wrong.  My numbers are right where they should be.

If they had a "luck" factor from 1 to 10, I think mine would be a 1.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

um... small sample size is right.  Also, it seems a little fluky to me the run he went on


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Yeah, the 180s are over very quick.  As a matter of fact, they all run like clockwork usually.  Blinds go up every 5 minutes.  1 hour into the tourny, there will ALWAYS be 24-17 players left, no more, no less, and 18 get paid.  When there are 18 left, expect another 5-10 minutes to get to the FT, and 15-20 minutes MAX for their to be a winner.
> 
> I've seen games finish at probably 1 hour 20 minutes, and maybe the max 1 hour 45 minutes, but never 2 hours.
> 
> The blind structure is fast, 15/30 25/50  50/100 75/150 100/200 125/250(25) 150/300(25) 200/400(50) 300/600(50) 400/800(75) 500/1000(100) from this level to the next, is when the bubble breaks.  600/1200 (125) 800/1600 (150)  1/2K (200) 1.5K/3K(300) 2/4K (400) 2.5/5K (500)  Very rarely does it go higher than this.
> 
> Fast structure, 1500 starting chips.



Holy shit, those are SUPER TURBOs!  I have zero interest in playing those.  

Full tilt's games go 15/30 20/40   25/50  30/60  40/80  50/100  60/120  80/160  etc.  every SIX minutes.


----------



## Fjones

I found the small stakes cash gams excruciating--  Boring as hell, and just trading money back and forth while the house wins.  I am a tournament only player.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Where were you calling with 5th pair and being good? Online !??


----------



## Fjones

calling with 5th pair !?  

calling bluffs at the river in cash games was never my strong point.  Do people river bluff more in cash games?


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

^heater


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Timeshenko was just at the final table of the WPT.  Did you see that?


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> ^ Yeah, Timenshenko won that WPT for like 2+million, he is a sick online HU player too.
> 
> And to add to it, SHEESH, same said friend came in 10th in the sunday 500.. first was 92K.  He caught a sick beat, I would of vomited.
> 
> He raised on button with QQ, which obv. looked like a steal, where a good player in the BB decided to re raise, and my friend shoved, said douchebag in the BB called with J8 o..  Flop brought Qc5c3c and the turn brought the fourth club, 9c and river blanked with a Ac  the dude had the 8 of clubs and busted him!!!!!!!!!!  If he won that pot he is Chipleader and at the FT.  I would of punched a hole straight through my monitor.  daaaaaaamn.
> 
> ughhh. How did you end up in the Ftop events on sunday jones?



Took a bafflign bad beat for a hige pot.  Then I got 11th out of 1900 in the 35K.  Then I got 47th out of 1200 in the 28K.  This after getting 7th out of 300 in the 18K and 9th in the 50-50 in recent weeks.  

To say I am frustrated would be a dramatic understatement.  

11th = $335 = BULLSHIT.  1st = $9300.  

I got all in with KK against the fish at the table.  Of course he had aces.  This was for a huge pot.  The board ended up being K  5  A  4  A  or something like that.


----------



## Fjones

agreed.  Drinks and breakfast are on me When I win.


----------



## stinkfoot

you guys should have gone somewhere nicer than a chain steakhouse.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Fjones, those beats were excruciating.  You have come close many times.  I hope that you win a multi very very soon.


----------



## Fjones

Ah yes.  I remember back when money was rolling in a bit more, we went to Bobby Flay's.  The dinner was great but then I lost Credit card roulette for the $300 bill.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Got 4th out of 150 in a $5 turbo. Only paid $75, but still, decent ROI and I played pretty good poker. I love being on the bubble with hardly any chips, and just shoving and shoving and people fold and fold and soon you've gone from 2K to 8K, without ever going to the flop. Then you win a genuine hand, then an agressive player pushes into your blind, and you call him with 88 and he shows 5s and all of a sudden you're nearly the chip leader. That was my game . Went out cruelly; A9s v A9s; he hit a flush.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Infinite Jest said:


> Got 4th out of 150 in a $5 turbo. Only paid $75, but still, decent ROI and I played pretty good poker. I love being on the bubble with hardly any chips, and just shoving and shoving and people fold and fold and soon you've gone from 2K to 8K, without ever going to the flop.



I can't agree more.  So true


----------



## Bedhead

Got a quick question for you poker gods. 

How helpful is Pokertracker or Hold 'em manager for improving your game? Does it really help you zero in on and fix your leaks? Are they worth the money? What about for someone playing low limits like $1 SnGs? 

Just want some feedback from people who use 'em... 
Once I make $90 in poker profits (God knows how long that'll be...) I figure I might as well get it...

On another note... KK has been busted 3 times today by either AK or AQ. How do you stack off near the bubble knowing at best you're in for a coin flip? It's either that or the idiot who called a raise OOP w/ J9o and flops the nuts... and of course I can't get away from trip Ks. I just can't win... 

Finally acquired enough FPP to get my $25 bonus on stars though!


----------



## Fjones

hold em manager i a good thing


----------



## Fjones

Fuck poker.  this is a stupid game that is nothing but frustration.  My advice for all the noobs out there is, find something else to do.  Whatever frustrating things you think you have encountered in life, try playing high volume poker and you'll learn the meaning of the word frustration.


----------



## Bedhead

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t2640)
Hero (BB) (t1610)
UTG (t1380)
MP (t2180)
CO (t3105)
Button (t2585)

*Hero's M*: 7.16

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with A
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_1 fold_, MP bets t450, _3 folds_, Hero raises to t1610 (All-In), MP calls t1160

*Flop*: (t3295) 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Turn*: (t3295) 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*River*: (t3295) J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Total pot:* t3295

Results:
Hero had A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (high card, Ace).
MP had J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: MP won t3295

^Standard FJones.  I feel your pain. This is why I keep losing. 3 outers and 2 outers on the river. More importantly... who the fuck calls an all-in, where they're crippled if they lose, w/ KJs... ??? Forget the price... you're most likely dominated here and if not, best case scenario is a coin flip... 

I don't think my ROI will ever get back in the positives. On a side note, I just put a 30mg oxy up my nose (feel muuucchhh better) and will be trying out the Hold 'em manager trial. I downloaded the PT3 trial a while back, but couldn't figure out how to configure it, and wasted away the trail period.

-------------------
Most recent SnG
Push AKo... big stack calls w/ AJs. And.... I lose! Of course. Every. Single. Fucking. Time. At least I get my $ in w/ the best hand...


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> SB (t2640)
> Hero (BB) (t1610)
> UTG (t1380)
> MP (t2180)
> CO (t3105)
> Button (t2585)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 7.16
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is BB with A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _1 fold_, MP bets t450, _3 folds_, Hero raises to t1610 (All-In), MP calls t1160
> 
> *Flop*: (t3295) 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 1 all-in)
> 
> *Turn*: (t3295) 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 1 all-in)
> 
> *River*: (t3295) J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 1 all-in)
> 
> *Total pot:* t3295
> 
> Results:
> Hero had A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (high card, Ace).
> MP had J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (one pair, Jacks).
> Outcome: MP won t3295
> 
> ^Standard FJones.  I feel your pain. This is why I keep losing. 3 outers and 2 outers on the river. More importantly... who the fuck calls an all-in, where they're crippled if they lose, w/ KJs... ??? Forget the price... you're most likely dominated here and if not, best case scenario is a coin flip...
> 
> I don't think my ROI will ever get back in the positives. On a side note, I just put a 30mg oxy up my nose (feel muuucchhh better) and will be trying out the Hold 'em manager trial. I downloaded the PT3 trial a while back, but couldn't figure out how to configure it, and wasted away the trail period.
> 
> -------------------
> Most recent SnG
> Push AKo... big stack calls w/ AJs. And.... I lose! Of course. Every. Single. Fucking. Time. At least I get my $ in w/ the best hand...



His mistake was opening the pot.  Once he did, and you shoved for 1100 more, he had to call.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> His mistake was opening the pot.  Once he did, and you shoved for 1100 more, he had to call.



He's priced in, but still, couldn't he have folded and been ok? He would've been left w/ like 10 BBs? And wait for another spot to get his money in?


----------



## Bedhead

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB (t1560)
UTG (t4703)
MP (t3210)
Hero (Button) (t2702)
SB (t3205)

*Hero's M*: 18.01

*Preflop*: Hero is Button with Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



UTG calls t100, MP calls t100, Hero bets t400, _1 fold_, BB raises to t700, _1 fold_, MP calls t600, Hero calls t300

*Flop*: (t2250) 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets t2002 (All-In), BB calls t860 (All-In), _1 fold_

*Turn*: (t3970) K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*River*: (t3970) 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*Total pot:* t3970

Results:
Hero had Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (two pair, Queens and sevens).
BB had K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (two pair, Kings and sevens).
Outcome: BB won t3970

Should I have shoved after the BB re raised me? He was playing pretty tight so in the back of my head I was worried he might have AA/KK/AK... Is shoving on the flop ok? No Aces or Kings... doubt anybody had a 7 either... Is calling PF and then C/F to an Ace or King on the board bad?

Why he rr me w/ KJs, or why he even limped in UTG, I have no idea....


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> He's priced in, but still, couldn't he have folded and been ok? He would've been left w/ like 10 BBs? And wait for another spot to get his money in?



sure, he could have folded, but why would he? he is getting 2 to 1 on the call. When getting 2 to 1, you pretty much have to call with any hand that has a reasonable chance of winning a showdown.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> BB (t1560)
> UTG (t4703)
> MP (t3210)
> Hero (Button) (t2702)
> SB (t3205)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 18.01
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is Button with Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UTG calls t100, MP calls t100, Hero bets t400, _1 fold_, BB raises to t700, _1 fold_, MP calls t600, Hero calls t300
> 
> *Flop*: (t2250) 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (3 players)
> BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets t2002 (All-In), BB calls t860 (All-In), _1 fold_
> 
> *Turn*: (t3970) K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 2 all-in)
> 
> *River*: (t3970) 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 2 all-in)
> 
> *Total pot:* t3970
> 
> Results:
> Hero had Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (two pair, Queens and sevens).
> BB had K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (two pair, Kings and sevens).
> Outcome: BB won t3970
> 
> Should I have shoved after the BB re raised me? He was playing pretty tight so in the back of my head I was worried he might have AA/KK/AK... Is shoving on the flop ok? No Aces or Kings... doubt anybody had a 7 either... Is calling PF and then C/F to an Ace or King on the board bad?
> 
> Why he rr me w/ KJs, or why he even limped in UTG, I have no idea....



I am going to be blunt here, I really think you are focusing on the wrong things.  Many of your posts seem like just bad beats that have little strategy analysis.  

You got this guy to go all in post flop with King high and no draw and just 3 outs.  He hit.  Happens. 

As for your questions -- 

1)  Should you shove pre flop.  Uhh.. YES?  Let me get this straight, you didn't shove because you thought he mighth ave AA  KK or AK?  

Ok, so the flop had 3 rags and you went all in with it.  I don't understand.  You are still losing to AA or KK.  

As for AK, well, if he has AK, so what?  You are avoiding a QQ vs. AK all in pre flop?  You have to take a 55 / 45 all in pre flop.  You have the 3rd best hand in poker in a small stakes fast blind sng.  You cannot be worried about his having a better hand.  This is just silly.  

Also, when you flat called his raise, he only had 800 chips left or so?  1000 maybe?  You need to play your hand with the same stack your opponent has.   The effectve stack is whoever has fewer chips.  Would you ever put half your stack in pre flop?  (I hope the answer is no).  So, you cannot do it in this situation either.  You have to move in pre flop.  What if he has a hand that you have crushed, but that he folds post flop because he does nto like the flop?  Unlikely, but possible.  Just get the rest of your chips in.  He did you a favor by reraising you.  Take it.  

As for your question about "Is shoving on the flop okay."  he called your shove with King high.  That answers your question.  


"Is calling PF and then C/F to an Ace or King on the board bad?"

Yes, catastrophically bad.  I fear you are missing a fundamental aspect of this game, which is as follows -- Putting in chips without chances to win pots is one of the worst thigns you can do.  You need to be aggressive.  Calling a RERAISE of half someone' stack, then check folding on the flop?  With the third best starting hand in poker?  

Have you run your slash stats for your hands?  VPIP / PRF / aggression?  I suspect you are playing way too passively.

ALso, he didn't limp utg.  He was the big blind.  

ALso, middle position CALLED the reraise, and you still didn't move all in to isolate?  If you think QQ is not a good enough hand to go all in pre flop with then you are playing the wrong game.


----------



## johanneschimpo

I don't like to type long posts, but I usually don't push with hands/case like that (of course it all depends on many variables), especially in small stakes SNGs like you said. I like to 'chip away' - if I'm better than these idiots, why would I want to put all my chips in preflop for a coin flip? I'd rather see a flop and outplay them. Isn't that how its supposed to be done?

Anyway, I 100% agree with the analysis. Its not that the guy did anything wrong, its that some guy made a donk call and got lucky. Not much to analyze/change there.


----------



## Fjones

johanneschimpo said:


> I don't like to type long posts, but I usually don't push with hands/case like that (of course it all depends on many variables), especially in small stakes SNGs like you said. I like to 'chip away' - if I'm better than these idiots, why would I want to put all my chips in preflop for a coin flip? I'd rather see a flop and outplay them. Isn't that how its supposed to be done?



No.  By the time you ever realize a coin flip is a coin flip, you have too much invested to fold.  Remember, he had POCKET QUEENS.  

If you want to fold pocket 5s there, fine.  But pocket queens?  No way.  

Also, what is this "chip away" at people business?  The guy already put in half his stack.  

There is WAY too much analysis going on here for this hand.  If this kind of hand is really tripping people up, then, well.....  (I cannot think of any way to end this sentence in a good way).   No offesne to anyone here.  But again, these kinds of hands are the easy ones.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> 1. if you are playing a single table sng, if you ever get the chance to get QQ in preflop, I would Phill Hellmuth flash call/shove all in at any given instant (unless there were 5 people all in before me, then I might think)
> 
> 2.  This is a turbo, you have to get your money in the best you possibly can.  If you are a 50.1% to 49.9 favorite, you have to get your money in everytime.
> 
> 3.  Unfortunately, you will take pretty bad beats in the low stake game, and it can be very hard to climb up and make a decent profit playing 1$ sngs.   This is where people with absolutely no poker knowledge start out, and where people who have no bankroll start out, so unless you can play a HUGE MASSIVE amount of volume of sngs (thousands) you probably won't be a big winner.
> 
> 4. In a turbo , small stakes sngs, I think its safe to go ahead and never assume someone has AA or KK if you have QQ.  People will KQs and A10s the same as AA ALOT of the time.  ESPECIALLY AQ and AK. I would gladly get my QQ all in agaisnt AK everyhand if I could...
> 
> 5. And Chimpo, You should maybe look into pot limit/ fixed limit games, if you don't already play them.  You HAVE to put QQ all in preflop if you think its going to be a coin flip, thats the beauty of NL.  But, Like you said, in low limit you dont like too, probably because Dbags call your all ins and you see alot of bad beats.  This is where volume will change your mind.
> 
> Ex.  you play 1 sng, get beat KJ v QQ. boooooooo  you play 30 sngs, and have KJ beat your QQ 12 times. but it wins 18 times.  $$$$$$$$$
> 
> Its really really easy to get mad when you play one single game and lose bad, and also, all I ever see you getting your money all in preflop/postflop.  Do you feel like alot of your game is done preflop?  Maybe it would be better to hault the turbos for now, and work on post flop game?  just a suggestion



I agree with msot of this.  

I don't think being all in pre flop a lot is a bad thing.  In fact, it is the way to play small stack fast blind sngs.  

Now, to continue about the "I don't want to play a coin flip for my stack." 

I played 2500 45 man sngs at the $24 level.  That is a large sample.  I have a 21% Roi for a profit of around $13,500.   I have an identical ROI at the $75 games.  700 played.  

Anyone want to guess what my win% on pre flop all ins is?  Bonus points for the closest answer.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Fjones said:


> His mistake was opening the pot.  Once he did, and you shoved for 1100 more, he had to call.



I'd have considered shoving in villain's position (given it's a short table, and the blinds are quite high). Would you have just folded preflop?


----------



## Infinite Jest

Fjones said:


> Anyone want to guess what my win% on pre flop all ins is?  Bonus points for the closest answer.



53-54%?

You're probably getting into a lot of coin flips, but given that you're a winning player, there's probably a small but significant number of all-ins where you've got AK to AQ, or a higher pair.


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> I'd have considered shoving in villain's position (given it's a short table, and the blinds are quite high). Would you have just folded preflop?



It would be a terrible shove by villain.  There is already 775 in the pot, and villain would be adding another 1460 for a total of 2235.  Hero has to call 1060 more.  

That is the easiest call ever.  1060 to win 2235?  Any hand that opened to 400 after a couple of limpers is WAY positive EV against ANY reasonable range.  

So villain would be pushing a hand with no fold equity.  That makes it essentially the same as a call all in for his stack.  And that is NOT a good way to play poker.  Not with KJ anyway.  AJ is MAYBE a shove.  when raising into a raised pot, you need either a strong hand or fold equity.  Villain has neither.


----------



## Fjones

You were both close.  At the $24 I am 48.8  and at the $69 I am 51.9.  

So, this notion of avoiding a coin flip pre flop is absurd.  The point is, you raise to take down a pot.  If that fails, you hope to be around 50% to win.  Now, you can fold sometimes if you know it is a coin flip at BEST and possibly much worse, obviously.  

For example, when people open shove utg and you have nothing invested, you fold small pairs, because it is a coin flip at best.  

That's different.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Fjones said:


> It would be a terrible shove by villain.  There is already 775 in the pot, and villain would be adding another 1460 for a total of 2235.  Hero has to call 1060 more.
> 
> That is the easiest call ever.  1060 to win 2235?  Any hand that opened to 400 after a couple of limpers is WAY positive EV against ANY reasonable range.
> 
> So villain would be pushing a hand with no fold equity.  That makes it essentially the same as a call all in for his stack.  And that is NOT a good way to play poker.  Not with KJ anyway.  AJ is MAYBE a shove.  when raising into a raised pot, you need either a strong hand or fold equity.  Villain has neither.



Oh sorry, I mean the first hand: KJs v AKo. Villain would have been opening. I would certainly fold KJs to a preflop raise.


----------



## Fjones

small stakes fast blind small stack tournaments are not about fancy elaborate play.  Observe this screen shot from a 45 man win.  Notice, I saw 20 flops the ENTIRE tournament.  12 went to showdown, of which I won 10 (so it helps to run good obviously), but more importantly, I LOST ALL EIGHT of the flops I saw that did not go to showdown.  But I won so many chips by winning those 39 pots pre flop that it did not matter.  What does this mean?

Play tight and aggressive
Don't call
If you go past the flop, you better have a damn good reason.  

Even doing all this, you will lose 5 out of 6 45 man tournaments, and only some of the cashes will be first place, because that 10 out of 12 in showdowns is not going to happen all the time.  

You want to put yourself in position to win when you DO get the good luck. 

Notice how these stats indicate that I didn't have to make a lot of tough decisions.  The best way to avoid having to make tough decisions is to avoid putting yourself in awkward spots. 

(Note)  you will need to click on "resize"


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> Oh sorry, I mean the first hand: KJs v AKo. Villain would have been opening. I would certainly fold KJs to a preflop raise.



My fault.  

I am pretty sure that is negative EV.  NO antes, and shoving 14.5 BBs in with KJ with 4 hands to act behind you?  

Suppose people call with AJ or 77 or better.  AJ or 77 or better occurs 82 times out of 1225 (factoring in that there are 50 unknown cards), so odds of a player having that hand are 1 out of 15.  odds of a player NOT having it are 14 / 15.  Odds of FOUR players not having it are 3/4. 

so 3 times out of 4, villain wins 225 chips.  the other 1 time out of 4, he is all in against AJ+ 77+.   Therefore, villain's EV is 

(2385)(.75) + (4400)(.25)(win% against the calling range AJ+ 77+)  

according to poker stove, KJs is 36% against that range.  SO that makes the EV from the push equal to 2184.  Well, I'll be damned.  It is a SLIGHTLY + EV push.  BUT, if people call with ANY more hands, it becomes negative EV.  And people might call with AT, KQ, A9 or whatever.  

I would wait.  You can wait one more round.  

How the fuck do politicians say this is a game of luck and not skill?  Are they really that stupid?  Or do they deliberately lie?  And there are SO MANY factors in addition.  

I mean, shit, in a sample of 3200 games, I have an ROI of 21%.  that is NOT POSSIBLE in a game of skill.  It just ISN'T!


----------



## Fjones

Well, yeah, 28 hands "beat" KJs, but a lot of them are only slightly ahead (22 - TT or ace rag) but a lot of thoe also fold.  I thought he KJ shove was goign to be clearly negative EV.  But the important thing is winning without being called.  I put people on a VERY tight calling range and even then it was barely + EV.  The important thing to note is that KJ and KQ match up fairly well against several of the calling hands.  On the other hand, a hand like ace 2 or ace 3, which technically "beats" KJ, is a horrible push, since it is detroyed by every hand in the calling range and several that aren't (66 55 44 33).


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> Its really really easy to get mad when you play one single game and lose bad, and also, all I ever see you getting your money all in preflop/postflop.  Do you feel like alot of your game is done preflop?  Maybe it would be better to hault the turbos for now, and work on post flop game?  just a suggestion



I stopped the turbos, lol. Started only playing regulars. I found out I liked the 10 min blinds as opposed to the 5 min blinds. 

FJones, no hurt feelings here. It's good to be blunt. If I spew wrong info, etc, call me out on it. I'm just trying to get better, bound to make mistakes along the way though... 


I've only played maybe ~260 SnGs, but my stats for the 8856 SnG hands is 23.5/14/3.4 .... so raise more PF?


----------



## Fjones

I am happy to see the 3.4 for your aggression factor.  That is solid.  Mine is right there as well.  

But 23.5 / 14 ?  Wow, that is a lot of hands played. 

Are these single table tournaments?  9 handed? 

I play 45 man sngs and I run a 13.2 / 10.5 or something like that.  

If you are playing 9 handed, you will be short handed a lot More than I am, so maybe 23 VPIP is acceptable, but 14 PFR is not.  If you are playing a hand, you should be raising it.  If it isn't good enough to raise, it isn't good enough to limp.  A bad hand doesn't become better by limping in.  

Exceptions -- 

If you want to limp AA or KK occasionally in a desperate attempt to force someone to see a flop and "hit" a second best hand, okay, but only do that with 12 BB or less, never do it when you can really take a beating on the hand.  

If you want to overlimp with small pocket pairs at cheap levels (maybe the first two blind levels), ok, though it still is probably not a great play.  do NOT start limp calling raises with baby pockets.  Your starting stack is not deep enough to justify it. 

If you want to overlimp the button with hands like JTs, T9s, etc, I suppose that is okay, though I still prefer a raise or a fold.  

you want your PFR to be around 80% of your VPIP, maybe more.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Any thoughts on VPIP/PFR in Omaha? (I was playing PLO, but same question for PLO H/L). 

I noticed I was limping a lot of hands, something I wouldn't do in NLHE. I tightened up at the end, but I still think I should have been a lot tighter earlier (though people were playing worse hands than me....).

Also, one PLO hand that bugged me, I think I played it right: It's a fairly tight table (we're down to last 15 or so of 161). I've got TTJx (TJ suited) on button and everyone folds to me, I raise the pot. SB folds, short-stacked BB re-raises all-in. It's 2/1 to call. I'm 90% certain I should have called here, even if I think he has a better hand. Thoughts? 

Back to NLHE: so if you had say 77 on the button with 3 limpers, you'd raise? Or fold? What would you do if re-raised? 

Interesting to read the stats; I've played at tables recently where one player went out after 6 hands with 100/100 stats, another played about 40 with 80/15...most people at table were VPIP of 50 or so, and me and one other guy were folding every hand pre-flop, because someone was always raising big :D


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> Any thoughts on VPIP/PFR in Omaha? (I was playing PLO, but same question for PLO H/L).
> 
> I noticed I was limping a lot of hands, something I wouldn't do in NLHE. I tightened up at the end, but I still think I should have been a lot tighter earlier (though people were playing worse hands than me....).
> 
> Also, one PLO hand that bugged me, I think I played it right: It's a fairly tight table (we're down to last 15 or so of 161). I've got TTJx (TJ suited) on button and everyone folds to me, I raise the pot. SB folds, short-stacked BB re-raises all-in. It's 2/1 to call. I'm 90% certain I should have called here, even if I think he has a better hand. Thoughts?
> 
> Back to NLHE: so if you had say 77 on the button with 3 limpers, you'd raise? Or fold? What would you do if re-raised?
> 
> Interesting to read the stats; I've played at tables recently where one player went out after 6 hands with 100/100 stats, another played about 40 with 80/15...most people at table were VPIP of 50 or so, and me and one other guy were folding every hand pre-flop, because someone was always raising big :D




I detest Omaha.  I cannot make sense of the game.  I much prefer hi-lo.  

But yes, you have to call.  Folding in omaha when getting 2 to 1 is jsut absurd.  

In omaha I tend to  be loose pre flop since so many hands have speculative value.  

I used to KILL omaha hi lo sngs.  I have a 17.2% Roi in 861 Omaha hi lo STTs played.  That is NOT easy to do at Single table games.  

I used to EIGHT table omaha hi lo cash games. That was insane.  

as for the pocket 7s, If I have 15 BB or less, I ship, if I have more, I probably overlimp.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Ill be completely honest that the last 2 sets of cards I just got done playing have to be the most BRUTAL in terms of me being absolutely helpless by getting it in good TWICE and losing to two outs, and losing out of 24 straight 180s with some of the grossest beats I've ever seen back to back to back X20.
> 
> One of those sets,  if I still broke shit when I lost there'd be holes all over my house and innocent bystanders would have broken faces.
> 
> I lack in the luck department, always have, and feel as if I always will.
> 
> Back in my college days when I used to blaze, I used to be able to keep my cool.  But now that I am a sober kid, the want to break shit is extremely high.
> 
> What does it feel like to absolutely run over the competition and be a consistant winner? I bet it feels good.




I wish I knew.  I guess I "win" consistently, but the swings are brutal.  For example -- 

I have played 731 $69 sngs (45 man).  My overall profit at them is $11,808 (21.54% ROI).  That is good.  731 can be played in a month, though it has taken me longer because I used to play the $24 and mix in a few $69.  

But let's examine how those 731 games have gone --  these are sequential chunks -- 

38 games      5995.25 
47 games   3338.70 NEGATIVE
55 games  3202.80 
29 games   1522.95 NEGATIVE
89 games   6210.75 
83 games  1536.45 NEGATIVE
33 games  2741.40 
75 games  3482.55 NEGATIVE
32 games  1605.45 
53 games 3602.40 NEGATIVE
72 games  3356.10 
47 games 2283 NEGATIVE
78 games 4458.60 

During some of those losing streaks,  I just want to destroy things.  It is the worst feeling.   I had losing streaks there of 40 in a row (!??), 28 in a row, 1 out of FIFTY (and that 1 was a weak 5th place),  1 out of 39, 1 out of 30.  
It’s a game of highs and lows and it is really mentally draining.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi, 55K board. I have K10. Villian is JJ. I rr all-in, he calls, hits a J on the river. Then, next hand later this... Even though I busted out, all I can do is laugh, 'cuz if I keep doing this in the long run I should be good. 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t1375)
SB (t2065)
BB (t930)
UTG (t2780)
UTG+1 (t1985)
MP1 (t1005)
MP2 (t2075)
Hero (CO) (t1285)

*Hero's M*: 17.13

*Preflop*: Hero is CO with Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



UTG calls t50, _1 fold_, MP1 calls t50, _1 fold_, Hero bets t200, _2 folds_, BB calls t150, UTG calls t150, _1 fold_

*Flop*: (t675) 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(3 players)
BB bets t50, UTG raises to t100, Hero raises to t1085 (All-In), BB calls t680 (All-In), UTG calls t985

*Turn*: (t3575) 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(3 players, 2 all-in)

*River*: (t3575) 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(3 players, 2 all-in)

*Total pot:* t3575

Results:
BB had 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (full house, sevens over twos).
UTG had 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (full house, sevens over twos).
Hero had Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (two pair, Queens and sevens).
Outcome: BB won t1433, UTG won t2142


----------



## Fjones

And, the 400 $ MSOP event is tomorrow.  

90 to 100 regulars !???  THat cnanot be positive EV, can it?  That's insane.  

By the way tonight I got outdrawn by a KQ on a J J T flop.  

big deal you say?  Happens all the time?  Well, my hole cards were pocket tens.  GRRRRRRRRRR.


----------



## Max Power

this thread is -EV


----------



## Fjones

Really Full tilt?  REALLY?  

In the money in the 28K.  Then this happened.  

Full Tilt Poker Game #12495175937: $28,000 Guarantee (93018379), Table 1 - 500/1000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:10:35 ET - 2009/05/29
Seat 1: Indyvbdave (8,895)
Seat 5: Hero (29,767)
All ante 125
schwags33 posts the small blind of 500
Hero posts the big blind of 1,000
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Tc Td]
Indyvbdave raises to 8,770, and is all in
Hero calls 7,770
Indyvbdave shows *[Ah As]*
Hero shows [Tc Td]
*** FLOP *** [Kd 9h 2s]
*** TURN *** [Kd 9h 2s] [2h]
*** RIVER *** [Kd 9h 2s 2h] [8h]


Full Tilt Poker Game #12495292884: $28,000 Guarantee (93018379), Table 1 - 500/1000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:19:22 ET - 2009/05/29
Seat 3: dobbsy69 (5,809)
Seat 5: Hero (22,587)
Seat 6: My Bluff Worked (12,961)
All ante 125
ebbnflow posts the small blind of 500
Drewch posts the big blind of 1,000
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ac Js]
dobbsy69 calls 1,000
Hero raises to 3,500
My Bluff Worked raises to 12,836, and is all in
Hero calls 9,336
My Bluff Worked shows *[Ad Ah]*
Hero shows [Ac Js]
*** FLOP *** [2d 5c As]
*** TURN *** [2d 5c As] [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [2d 5c As Tc] [7h]



Full Tilt Poker Game #12495460780: $28,000 Guarantee (93018379), Table 51 - 600/1200 Ante 150 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:32:16 ET - 2009/05/29
Seat 2: RicMic60 (58,164)
Seat 3: Hero (16,152)
All ante 150
Naks posts the small blind of 600
r0b1n40 posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [3d 3h]
RicMic60 raises to 2,400
Hero raises to 16,002, and is all in
RicMic60 calls 13,602
Hero shows [3d 3h]
RicMic60 shows* [Ah As]*
*** FLOP *** [9d 5h Ac]
*** TURN *** [9d 5h Ac] [Jc]
*** RIVER *** [9d 5h Ac Jc] [5d]


*This was in a span of 22 minutes!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## Fjones

full tables, I was just making it readable.  Full tilt has some 250K FTP tourney coming up.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Jones, why do you always get bad beat like that?


----------



## Max Power

SHHMCJOOAPOYS said:


> Jones, why do you always get bad beat like that?



Those weren't bad beats.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

MaxPowers said:


> Those weren't bad beats.



So running into Aces three times isn't getting unlucky?


----------



## ostrich

^ wiki says 
    *

"    * A very strong hand loses to an even stronger one. This type of beat occurs with some frequency in movies. In the films The Cincinnati Kid and Casino Royale, The Kid and Le Chiffre each lose with a full house to a straight flush."

"There is no consensus among poker players as to what exactly constitutes a bad beat and often players will disagree about whether a particular hand was a bad beat."


nonetheless, i don't care about that argument all too much.

Just wondering when it is that you guys start loosening up your calling range (i.e. what stack / blind ratio) and by how much.

Was just multi tabling $3.25 45 man sit n go turbo, came second twice being fairly tight (not really calling anything with less than AQ 99+), It worked well most of the time, sometimes it would lead me to become short stacked and lead me to claw back up with coinflips and blind steals.

It was surprising though how many times a re raise would cause these blokes to fold...

Came second twice, placed in the other two (like 6 - 7). 

Would you say paying the extra 15 cents is worth it to not play in the turbo? (stars rake is 15 cents higher in non turbos), the turbos do seem like a fair bit of a crapshoot.

EDIT: I was also wondering about your bankroll management strategies, have you guys plateaued and taking out almost all profits into your bank account, or are you constantly increasing the size of your buy in (i.e. do you have plans to move on above and beyond $75 45 man sit n gos Fjones)

I started with $50 2 nights ago and am up to $120, that is in no small part due to luck, and I'm thinking of taking out the initial 50 and then going from there. 100 FPP down, 400 to go for my bonus too.


----------



## Bedhead

SHHMCJOOAPOYS said:


> So running into Aces three times isn't getting unlucky?



It's unlucky to run into aces, but he didn't get his money in w/ the best hand, so not a bad beat IMO. His opponent didn't suck out on him on any street. 

Starting to make a little comeback grinding the 1 + .20 SnGs... but it's so slow... and such a grind at these stakes. Don't want to move up till I break even.



> I started with $50 2 nights ago and am up to $120, that is in no small part due to luck, and I'm thinking of taking out the initial 50 and then going from there. 100 FPP down, 400 to go for my bonus too.



Prepare for the doomswitch, LOL. But ya, I prefer the regular SnGs to the turbos. When you get short stacked it just becomes push/fold.

As far as stealing.. I start when blinds reach 50/100 and there's usually 4-5 players left. C-bet the flop, unless I flopped a monster then maybe check - let em take a stab at the pot, but the c-bet usually takes it down.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Bedhead said:


> As far as stealing.. I start when blinds reach 50/100 and there's usually 4-5 players left. C-bet the flop, unless I flopped a monster then maybe check - let em take a stab at the pot, but the c-bet usually takes it down.



Cbets rarely work for me


----------



## Max Power

SHHMCJOOAPOYS said:


> So running into Aces three times isn't getting unlucky?



It is unlucky,definitely.

I guess I just define a bad beat as putting in your money with the best hand preflop or on the flop and getting drawn out on in a nasty way.

So like, top pair top kicker against a flush draw . . . guy hits his flush . . . . that's not a bad beat.

Pocket tens vs. AK before the flop, an ace hits on the turn . . . that's not a bad beat.

Both situations are unlucky though.

So I guess it's just a matter of what you consider to be the definition of a bad beat. Neither of us are really right or wrong in this situation.


----------



## Bedhead

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) (t1705)
MP (t1820)
Button (t1340)
SB (t7635)
BB (t1000)

*Hero's M*: 22.73

*Preflop*: Hero is UTG with A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero bets t150, MP calls t150, _3 folds_

*Flop*: (t375) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t100, MP raises to t1670 (All-In), _Hero folds_

*Total pot:* t575

LOL? Should I have called this. Odd that he just shoves. Am I ahead most of the time here? Villian is 25/6/7. Don't really have any reads other than that. Since it was early in the SnG I felt ok folding.


----------



## Max Power

^ I would have checked/called that flop.

As it is, snap call.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

I open muck AQo utg....  no really... sure stack off with top pair 2nd kicker.. why not?


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Also, the way it's played why would you lead 100?  That seems like a really light bet there.  What information do you get by betting 100?


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> Hero (UTG) (t1705)
> MP (t1820)
> Button (t1340)
> SB (t7635)
> BB (t1000)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 22.73
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is UTG with A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hero bets t150, MP calls t150, _3 folds_
> 
> *Flop*: (t375) A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 4
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players)
> Hero bets t100, MP raises to t1670 (All-In), _Hero folds_
> 
> *Total pot:* t575
> 
> LOL? Should I have called this. Odd that he just shoves. Am I ahead most of the time here? Villian is 25/6/7. Don't really have any reads other than that. Since it was early in the SnG I felt ok folding.




my man.  You are taking a difficult game and making it ten times more difficult.

I am going to basically repeat what SHH...etc said.    

Why are you betting 100 into a 375 pot?  DO not do this. ever.  EVER.  

Second, if you are folding AQ on an A 4 5 rainbow flop, why are you playing ace queen in the first place?  

If you are worried about being outkicked, then don't play the hand.  Open fold every hand except AK or pocket pairs.  I am not joking.  

I play $75 games and I do not fold top pair in my own raised pot.  EVER.  There is just no reason to.   You are good more often than you are not.


----------



## Fjones

ostrich said:


> Just wondering when it is that you guys start loosening up your calling range (i.e. what stack / blind ratio) and by how much.
> 
> Was just multi tabling $3.25 45 man sit n go turbo, came second twice being fairly tight (not really calling anything with less than AQ 99+), It worked well most of the time, sometimes it would lead me to become short stacked and lead me to claw back up with coinflips and blind steals.
> 
> It was surprising though how many times a re raise would cause these blokes to fold...
> 
> Came second twice, placed in the other two (like 6 - 7).
> 
> Would you say paying the extra 15 cents is worth it to not play in the turbo? (stars rake is 15 cents higher in non turbos), the turbos do seem like a fair bit of a crapshoot.
> 
> EDIT: I was also wondering about your bankroll management strategies, have you guys plateaued and taking out almost all profits into your bank account, or are you constantly increasing the size of your buy in (i.e. do you have plans to move on above and beyond $75 45 man sit n gos Fjones)
> 
> I started with $50 2 nights ago and am up to $120, that is in no small part due to luck, and I'm thinking of taking out the initial 50 and then going from there. 100 FPP down, 400 to go for my bonus too.



loosening up the calling range shouldn't happen until pretty mate in the game.  Calling = bad.  betting and raising = good.  

Why call other people's bets?  What does that do?  
"Hi, here, take my chips, I don't want them."


"came second twice being fairly tight (not really calling anything with less than AQ 99+), It worked well most of the time, sometimes it would lead me to become short stacked and lead me to claw back up with coinflips and blind steals."

MOST of the time it will leave you short stacked and clawing back with coinflips and stealing.  That's the way short stacked fast paces SNGS work online.  

"Would you say paying the extra 15 cents is worth it to not play in the turbo? (stars rake is 15 cents higher in non turbos), the turbos do seem like a fair bit of a crapshoot."

YES to not playing turbos, and AGREED about crapshoots.  

"I started with $50 2 nights ago and am up to $120, that is in no small part due to luck, and I'm thinking of taking out the initial 50 and then going from there. 100 FPP down, 400 to go for my bonus too.[/QUOTE]"

This makes no sense.  You are playing $3.50 games with 45 people, with only 35 buy-ins, and you want to take out almost half your bankroll?  The amount you have in there now isn't enough.  
You said to yourself, "in so small part because of luck."  So, you take $50 out and then get unlucky, and have no roll left.  

"EDIT: I was also wondering about your bankroll management strategies, have you guys plateaued and taking out almost all profits into your bank account, or are you constantly increasing the size of your buy in (i.e. do you have plans to move on above and beyond $75 45 man sit n gos Fjones)"

They do not have higher than $75.  I wish they did.  

A bankroll must be sufficient such that you never go broke.  

So, if you are playing STTs, 30 buy-ins is a good bankroll....if you want to go broke.  

If you are playing 45 mans SNGS, 50 buy-ins is a good bankroll.... If you want to go broke.   

If you are playing large multi-table tournaments... well, that's nto even in the bankroll discussion, because there really isn't a long term for those.  

For STTs, I would recommend 50 buy-ins MINIMUM.  For 45 man sngs, I would say 100 at least, preferably more.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00+$0.20 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> Hero (UTG) (t1705)
> MP (t1820)
> Button (t1340)
> SB (t7635)
> BB (t1000)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 22.73
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is UTG with A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hero bets t150, MP calls t150, _3 folds_
> 
> *Flop*: (t375) A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 4
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> , 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players)
> Hero bets t100, MP raises to t1670 (All-In), _Hero folds_
> 
> *Total pot:* t575
> 
> LOL? Should I have called this. Odd that he just shoves. Am I ahead most of the time here? Villian is 25/6/7. Don't really have any reads other than that. Since it was early in the SnG I felt ok folding.



Ehh.  I just saw the poker tracker numbers.  I did not notice them before.  

Having seen them, I have to say.....

????????????????????????

he plays a 25 / 6 ???  with a post flop aggression of SEVEN? 

This means he is very loose pre flop and ridiculously aggressive post flop.   I find the fold baffling.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead, you are giving people too much credit.  You are not beaten every time you are raised.  

remember, very few people play low stakes games for a living.  most of them are playing low stakes for one simple reason.  

THEY SUCK AT POKER.  Like this clown for example.  

This is a $26 game, SECOND OR THIRD HAND

Seat 1: Hero (3,000)
Seat 2: rocnation01 (3,070)
Seat 3: WhatItDoAJF (2,900)
Seat 4: chipmagnutz (2,980), is sitting out
Seat 5: jeffreypoker (3,090)
Seat 6: dackhacdinh (2,960)
Seat 7: nhungoc2 (3,000)
Seat 8: techunik (3,000), is sitting out
Seat 9: Glo4ming (3,000)
chipmagnutz posts the small blind of 10
jeffreypoker posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Qd Ks]
techunik calls 20
Hero raises to 70
rocnation01 calls 70
techunik calls 50
*** FLOP *** [Tc 5s 7s]
techunik checks
Hero bets 144
rocnation01 calls 144
techunik folds
*** TURN *** [Tc 5s 7s] [Kc]
Hero bets 420
rocnation01 has 15 seconds left to act
rocnation01 raises to 950
Hero calls 530
*** RIVER *** [Tc 5s 7s Kc] [3s]
Hero checks
rocnation01 has 15 seconds left to act
rocnation01 bets 1,906, and is all in
Hero calls 1,836, and is all in
Uncalled bet of 70 returned to rocnation01
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rocnation01 shows [Qs Qh] a pair of Queens
Hero shows [Qd Ks] a pair of Kings
Hero wins the pot (6,100) with a pair of Kings


----------



## Fjones

I am not making this up.  I swear this happened.  

button open limps for 80.  I push 13 big blinds in from SB with AT.  big blind calls.  


THE BUTTON decides to limp/OVERCALL BOTH ALL-INS with JACK TEN OFFSUIT.  

this is a *$75 game*, the highest level 45 man that runs on full tilt.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

and..... what was the result??


----------



## Fjones

JT won obviusly.  JT is the nuts.  Second only to KQ.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> Bedhead, you are giving people too much credit.  You are not beaten every time you are raised.



Ya, I'm kicking myself now. As I watched him in later hands he was a spewtard. Folding was stupid there. AQ was definitely good there.


----------



## Bedhead

I don't know what to say for this one... 

*** FLOP *** [Kd 9d 7c]
ModestZL: bets 40
NikolasM7: calls 40
*** TURN *** [Kd 9d 7c] [Jh]
ModestZL: checks 
NikolasM7: checks 
*** RIVER *** [Kd 9d 7c Jh] [Qs]
*ModestZL: folds *
NikolasM7 collected 210 from pot
NikolasM7: doesn't show hand 

lol? Maybe he had a joker? 

Tough beat nguboi. 2 outers make me want to run babies over w/ semis.


----------



## Fjones

Da_Professional. 

May 17th.  

He wins a 466 operson $109 rebuy for $41,500

He then wins a 932 person $163  for $32,154

HE WAS NOT DONE YET.  

he wins a $163 Rebuy  540 people... for $71,175. 


THIS WAS ALL IN ONE NIGHT.  

..................................................

ARE
YOU
SERIOUS.  WOW.


----------



## Fjones

Sir.  Your bluff has EPIC FAILED.  

Seat 1: keel3303 (1,365)
Seat 2: Billy2n (1,620)
Seat 3: sbhash (1,440)
Seat 4: kaka77_405 (1,545)
Seat 5: backhanded (1,470)
Seat 6: calvin4140 (1,415)
Seat 7: bigkennyk51 (1,915)
Seat 8: Hero (1,470)
Seat 9: Bashere (1,260)
Hero posts the small blind of 20
Bashere posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [4s 4h]
keel3303 calls 40
Billy2n folds
sbhash calls 40
kaka77_405 calls 40
backhanded has 15 seconds left to act
backhanded folds
calvin4140 calls 40
bigkennyk51 calls 40
Hero calls 20
Bashere checks
*** FLOP *** [5s Tc Kc]
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero checks
Bashere has been disconnected
Bashere checks
Bashere has reconnected
keel3303 checks
sbhash checks
kaka77_405 checks
calvin4140 checks
bigkennyk51 checks
*** TURN *** [5s Tc Kc] [4d]
Hero bets 210
Bashere has 15 seconds left to act
Bashere folds
keel3303 folds
sbhash folds
kaka77_405 folds
calvin4140 folds
bigkennyk51 calls 210
*** RIVER *** [5s Tc Kc 4d] [5c]
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero bets 455
bigkennyk51 raises to 1,120
Hero raises to 1,220, and is all in
bigkennyk51 folds

*????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????*

Uncalled bet of 100 returned to Hero
Hero mucks
Hero wins the pot (2,940)


----------



## Fjones

holy shit.  I just checked him on poker stars.  99.99  in 07.  99.99 in 08.  and 100.00 in 2009 !???  

And that is in addition to the $400,000 he made on full tilt!?  

What is it that they do that we aren't?  I want to observe them.


----------



## Max Power

They don't go on super monkey tilt.


----------



## Bedhead

Is anybody that plays on stars reloading this month and taking a stab at the free rolls? I'm thinking about it just for fun. Free rolls are free rolls... but they'd be a nice change of pace. Plus, if you win you get a ticket to the 20k (I think it is?) free roll in late june. In total stars is giving away 300k in prize $.


----------



## Fjones

alas, for me, freerolls are negative EV.  

They count against my rakeback, and they occupy space on the screen that could be better used for a more pforitable game. 

Also, I think poker stars is negative EV.  The players there are better right?  So why play there?


----------



## Bedhead

1 Hr playing 3 tbls of 5NL and 1 tbl of 2NL... made $10.82 . Time to quit my $8/hr job. 

Not really, but running with god mode on feels good after getting horrific beats in the last few SnGs. People willing to stack off w/ 10s helps too. 
Talking VPIPs of 65 - 80 

Overall, I'm positive for cash games and in the red for SnGs. I'm running slightly above EV for cash and like 3 million dollars under EV for SnGs. Go figure.


----------



## Fjones

how many sngs have you played?


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> how many sngs have you played?



Roughly 210 1.00 + .20 9 man SnGs and 125 1.00 + .10 DoN Turbos before that. 

I only have HEM stats on 173 of the 9 man SnGs though.


----------



## Fjones

Nguboi is right.  Volume is the key.  You must be careful about making conclusions based on a sample size of 210 games.  If you are playing good poker, then you are in good shape.  That is all that matters.  I have had 200 game stretches of over 50% ROI at single table SNGs.  And I have had strateches of 200 where I made nothing at all.


----------



## Fjones

So, I have a baby stack on the bubble, so I start nitting it up big time trying to just cash, figuring I have little chance to do much else anyway.  

Then this shit happens.  Player 7 needs to get his head out of his ass, as player 8 had been sitting out (rather obviously) for three orbits.  

Seat 1: player 1 (16,506)
Seat 2: PLAYER 2(27,850)
Seat 4: Player 4 (7,552)
Seat 6: player 6(3,284)
*Seat 7: player 7(4,575)
Seat 8: Player 8(2,858), is sitting out*
Seat 9: Hero (4,875)
player 7posts the small blind of 500
Player 8posts the big blind of 1,000
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Qd 9s]
Player 8has reconnected
Hero folds
player 1 folds
PLAYER 2folds
Player 4 folds
Player 8has been disconnected
player 6folds
*player 7folds*

*NOOOOOOOO!!  WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY*

Uncalled bet of 500 returned to Josef Cur
Player 8mucks
Player 8wins the pot (1,000)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1,000 | Rake 0
Seat 1: player 1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: PLAYER 2didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Player 4 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: player 6(button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: player 7(small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: Player 8(big blind) collected (1,000), mucked
Seat 9: Hero didn't bet (folded)


----------



## Max Power

It's actually ~10m

edit: so I heard.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi, IIRC, that picture is old - and not his winnings from the 2-7 tourney. Still a  ballin photo of ivey though.
Ivey with his bracelet


----------



## Max Power

Yeah, that's an old pic. But you're right bedhead, its a good one.

Sick life.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> They said like Elizera paid him like 2.7 - 1 odds, and Ivey said the payout from 2nd to 1st in the 2-7 tourny was like 3 million, so 3 x 2.7 is almost 8 mill from Eli alone!!!!.. Only Eli could do that though, he has infininte money.  sheesh.



And then there's all the smaller guys (who probably don't want to be mentioned) that bet. I think on life of ivey he said he had a a 200k bet w/ Daniel Negraneu....


----------



## Fjones

Poker rant. (This does not apply to anyone here.) I hate poker players. I despite all of them (except the people here). They are a bunch of 75 IQ degenerate loser donks and I want to punch them all thorough my monitor. 

1) Some loser idiot clown decides to type in the chat box after a hand, “Oh man, I folded ______” on a board where ____ would make a big hand. Yes, you idiot, you stupid moron, you folded _____ because _____ is a SHITTY HAND and it was an easy fold! Do you really need to type in that you folded it? Who cares? You FOLDED!!!!! I mean, one time out of 10,000 when you fold 2 7 offsuit, you would have flopped a boat had you stayed in! BIG ****ING DEAL! SHUT UP! 

Or, someone folds TT to an all in, and a short stack calls. The players have 99 and 67 s. The 67 s was short stacked. A 9 hits. The idiot who folded TT says, “Whew, glad I folded my TT.” What !??????????? What!????????????????? Are you retarded? You are GLAD YOU FOLDED TT TO 99 ??? WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU? 
Or, some idiot has 5 6 offsuit on a board of A K 5 and the turn and river are 6 6. HE says, “Oh man, I folded a boat!” 

AAARGh! You are retarded! You did not FOLD a boat! You folded bottom pair! Why are you so stupid!? You should not be allowed to drive a car, vote, or handle money! You are a ****ING MORON! Shut up! No one cares!

2) Some hand happens, such as AK against AA on a board of A 9 5 2 2. Of course I have the AK. Anyway, some idiot NOT in the hand says, “nice hand.” What!???? Huh!?????? Nice hand?? Why? How? It was a basic hand where one person gets crushed and the hand will play out the same way every time. Why the hell would someone NOT in the hand type “nice hand?” He is a moron for thinking it and a 10X moron for ACTUALLY deciding to TYPE it in the chat box! There was no intricate play, no strategy, it was a tough hand and it’s over. SHUT UP! 

3) Along those lines, now the winner of the hand says, “Thank you.” AAARGH! I hate you! DIE DIE DIE DIE! What the hell are you THANKING him for? He did not compliment you! He made an idiotic colloquial remark. Why must you compound the folly by saying, “Thank you? You are an idiot! If someone walking by in the evening says in passing, “Nice sunset,” do you say “thank you!??” 

4) I am short stacked so I push junk and get called by a “monster” like K9. Now the “expert” who busted me has to ridicule me and my play. “J7!? LOL! HA HA HA! LAMO! J7! Your a moron!”

Ok, buddy, listen up – 

a) Yes, Jack 7, are you retarded? Did you not see it the first time? Sorry I wasn’t dealt a monster like your K9. I’ll try harder next time to get a better hand with my short stack

b) When I was in second grade I learned how to spell “you’re.” If you can’t, maybe you should refrain from calling people morons. 

c) Really? LOL? LMAO? Are you REALLY laughing audibly? **** you and your degenerate uneducated initialisms such as LOL and LAMO. Learn how to speak English. 

d) Maybe you should check the scoreboard before you criticize my play. See, your profit has a DASH in front of it. That means you are NEGATIVE ROI. You are a LOSING PLAYER. Why the HELL would a losing player criticize a winning player? Are people really that dumb? AAAAAAAAARGH!
I love hearing their explanations for why they suck. “I win on other accounts. I win at cash games. BLAH BLAH BLAH.” **** YOU! GO do it then and come back and talk trash. Or, my personal favorite, “I never win because of clowns like you playing garbage and beating me." Oh, ok, you LOSE because “clowns” like me play bad hands. 
…………………
………………………

Wow. Please just kill yourself. Your existence puts me on life tilt. Go jump off a plane or something. 

I swear I had a lot more but I cannot think of them. /rant


----------



## Infinite Jest

^
Heh, echo all that. Except I do the 'nh' thing occasionally. I don't mean 'wow, you played really well, congratulations' I just mean 'congratulations on winning'. I'd usually say 'nice bet' or 'well played' otherwise.

Have to admit I'll occasionally 'nh' someone if they beat a loud-mouthed donk, just to annoy the donk.

Haven't played much recently: played a rebuy really well but bubbled (at the break I had only 1800 chips, thanks to someone sucking out on me - I bet every street and he flat-called, then hit a set with his pocket 33 on the river). So I didn't rebuy; started the second hour in 263 of 269. Got to 28 of 40 (36 paid) by jamming the pot, hardly even had a good hand. Then got QQ, raised, was called. Board came K high, I bet anyway. Villain calls. J comes (I've now got a gutshot and second pair and not many chips) so I put the rest of my chips in, and he has me well beat (KJ....to a preflop raise...but they were suited...). Didn't play it right I think; should have been able to get away from the hand and still money. But OTOH, would have been 5th if I'd won and I should be trying to win the tourney, not money, right?


----------



## Mister Superzombie

Very funny rant Fjones.

This thread is interesting. I've started playing poker, then online poker, not so long ago, but I can manage to be a not-so-bad player, probably because I'm not an idiot. I can see I'm not the only one who loses fucked up hands to dorks who have about 3% chances of winning, 90% of the time, on Full Tilt and PokerStars, which is annoying me to no end.

Just now, I had the smallest stack on the table, waiting to go all in on a good hand. JJ comes, I'm big bling, someone raises 3x blind I think, another calls him, I raise all in and they both call me.

Flop: 5 8 A, they both go all in. One has 66, the other 77. I'm good.
Turn: 6.

*Fuck.* I shouldn't be surprised though.


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> ^
> Heh, echo all that. Except I do the 'nh' thing occasionally. I don't mean 'wow, you played really well, congratulations' I just mean 'congratulations on winning'. I'd usually say 'nice bet' or 'well played' otherwise.
> 
> Have to admit I'll occasionally 'nh' someone if they beat a loud-mouthed donk, just to annoy the donk.
> 
> Haven't played much recently: played a rebuy really well but bubbled (at the break I had only 1800 chips, thanks to someone sucking out on me - I bet every street and he flat-called, then hit a set with his pocket 33 on the river). So I didn't rebuy; started the second hour in 263 of 269. Got to 28 of 40 (36 paid) by jamming the pot, hardly even had a good hand. Then got QQ, raised, was called. Board came K high, I bet anyway. Villain calls. J comes (I've now got a gutshot and second pair and not many chips) so I put the rest of my chips in, and he has me well beat (KJ....to a preflop raise...but they were suited...). Didn't play it right I think; should have been able to get away from the hand and still money. But OTOH, would have been 5th if I'd won and I should be trying to win the tourney, not money, right?



If you were 28th out of 40 I would probably have just shoved all in with the QQ.  What was your stack relative to the blinds?


----------



## Bedhead

Nguboi, there's a bunch of forum threads & articles out there about the current situation. Just google the words "poker monies freeze PPA." I know that Wells Fargo was one of the banks that the gov. targeted. They froze the accounts of US banks that handle transactions for stars, FT, etc. 

Fjones' rant is funny, especially #1 'cuz I'm in the middle of 2 SnGs when I open this page and I had just gotten it in w/ AK against AJ and doubled up. Board was A245T. Guy in chat goes "wow, I folded 32." Then I go on to read the rant... 

Bad players who accumulate chips by limping and getting lucky puts me on life tilt, especially when they make the money. Then they put in ridiculous overbets, like they don't want a call, and I stack off w/ middle pair. He's not getting a call unless he's crushed, I don't know maybe he had a seizure at the time and misclicked. Maximize equity, extract value, lol wut? 8) I don't think the level of thinking at micro SnGs is particularly insane either...


----------



## Infinite Jest

Fjones said:


> If you were 28th out of 40 I would probably have just shoved all in with the QQ.  What was your stack relative to the blinds?



About 20-22 big blinds. 

Yeah, that was my subsequent thought. If I'd shoved, everyone would have folded and I'd have picked up about 3BB, and if KJs had called me and won, so be it. Really don't know why I bet so small, in hindsight.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> I read on pokernews a few days ago about the government withholding 33 million dollars from online poker sites.
> 
> I cashed out 100$ and they rejected my wells fargo check that was sent to me.  I usually cash out once a week and this has never happened.
> 
> What the hellllllll?  Does anyone have any information on this?



I have $2400 in limbo.  

FUCK YOU GOVERNMENT!!!  FUCK YOU AND DIE!    Stop fucking with our game and our money!  THIS IS NOT WHY WE ELECTED YOU!  The Founding fathers are rolling voer in their graves.  THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF A GOVERNMENT!    

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!  

VOTE LIBERTARIAN!


----------



## Fjones

Infinite Jest said:


> About 20-22 big blinds.
> 
> Yeah, that was my subsequent thought. If I'd shoved, everyone would have folded and I'd have picked up about 3BB, and if KJs had called me and won, so be it. Really don't know why I bet so small, in hindsight.



If you had 20 to 22 BB, you made the right play.  That is too much to shove pre flop.  I cannot remember the last time I had 20 BB unless I was in the top 25% of the field.  That is a lot of BBs to have when only being 28th out of 40.  Was this a tournament with very slowly escalating blinds?


----------



## Fjones

ok.  I just read the articles.  

I have had enough.  The government has run amok for far too long.  It is time for this criminal syndicate known as the government to be overthrown by local militias.  

Is this something I should avoid posting publicly?  If so please edit or delete my post.


----------



## Fjones

WOW.  

Another issue that the PPA is concerned about is how the DoJ didn’t act through what would be considered the proper legal channels. The DoJ did not obtain any warrants or orders from the court to force the banks to freeze the money in question; it simply sent letters to the banks to force the freeze on the accounts. “Seizure of money without judicial authority and litigation tactics (is) inconsistent with previously stated Department of Justice policy”, D’Amato continues in his statement.

A situation similar to this happened in January of 2007 when the DoJ froze approximately $60 million that had been in the coffers of Neteller, the online transaction organization that had been one of the most popular means for players to make gaming transactions. After the arrest of the founders of the company and much negotiation, Neteller agreed to pay a fine of $136 million and leave the U. S. market. Once the agreement was reached, the money in question was released to the players.


_______________

So, the government illegally seizes money without following protocol.  This after it EXTORTED $136 million from netteller, a company that violated no laws or rules.


----------



## try_x_ta_see

Haven't read this whole thread, but if you are new to online poker and are going to join, signup through a rakeback affiliate such as raketherakedotcom or elsewhere to get a percentage of your rakeback during play--  it really adds up and there's no reason not to take advantage of it.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Fjones said:


> If you had 20 to 22 BB, you made the right play.  That is too much to shove pre flop.  I cannot remember the last time I had 20 BB unless I was in the top 25% of the field.  That is a lot of BBs to have when only being 28th out of 40.  Was this a tournament with very slowly escalating blinds?



It was a rebuy, with the usual Absolute blind structure (12 minutes/level). Field was quite even, as you can probably guess - apart from one really big stack. If I'd doubled up I would have been in 5th place, and not far behind second. It does seem strange, now I think about it.


----------



## Fjones

that makes sense.  In rebuy tournaments, the blinds will be lower relative to the stacks than in a non rebuy tournament.


----------



## Fjones

I already do want to go postal.  I despite the government and everything it stands for. 


Meanwhile, I want to jsut smash my computer monitor to bits for continuing to display these nightmare hands one after another.  I am mired in this awful slump seen here (In order to win the real money you need to win 1st place in the 45 mans.  Top 6 pay) --    (May need to resize this to view)






So, I keep thinking, "tonight it will end.  Tonight will be different.  I can't keep making the top 14 without getting some high finishes."  

But of course just when you think it cannot get any worse, it gets far worse.  

Only those who have played 45 man tournaments can truly appreciate how agonizing this is, especially after a prolonged slump (700 games) --






While this was happening, The deck decided to deliver the ultimate blow, the nail in the coffin, the "FINISH HIM" fatality, the soul crushing dagger to the heart that was jsut the icing on the cake of despair  (wow, that was a LOT of metaphors).  

Notice the time stamps on the hands, all of which occurred deep in various tournaments. 

 1:44 ET 
Seat 1: 
Seat 2: 
Seat 3: 
Seat 4: villain (52,950)
Seat 5: Hero (24,048)
Seat 6: 
Seat 7: 
Seat 8: 
Seat 9: 
All players ante 200
SB  posts the small blind of 800
BB  posts the big blind of 1,600
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Jc Js]
villain raises to 4,200
Hero raises to 23,848, and is all in
villain calls 19,648
Hero shows [Jc Js]
villain shows [Ah Ac]
*** FLOP *** [As Ks 8d]
*** TURN *** [As Ks 8d] [3s]        (WOW, a chance!)  
*** RIVER *** [As Ks 8d 3s] [Ad]


1:46 ET
Seat 2: villain 2 (4,659)
Seat 3: villain (3,860)
Seat 4: 
Seat 5: Hero (3,360)
Seat 6: 
Seat 7: 
villain 2 posts the small blind of 600
villain posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ac Qd]
Hero raises to 3,360, and is all in
villain 2 raises to 4,659, and is all in
villain calls 2,660, and is all in
villain 2 shows [6h 6s]
villain shows [As Ad]
Hero shows [Ac Qd]

1:47 ET
Seat 1: shockwave95 (5,734)
Seat 2: HamSTACK (7,561)
Seat 5: mamercyd (4,453)
Seat 6: Hero (2,058)
Seat 7: meetwagon (2,180)
Seat 9: Villain (4,875)
SB posts the small blind of 200
Villain posts the big blind of 400
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Tc Ad]
Hero raises to 2,058, and is all in
Villain calls 1,658
Hero shows [Tc Ad]
Villain shows [Ah Ac]


----------



## Max Power

It's all about PLO now.


----------



## leafsmoker212

Do you play cash games? I'm a 25NL grinder.


----------



## Bedhead

leafs, which site? 

I'm done w/ SnGs as soon as I break even, a few more bucks to go. I just can't deal with people calling all ins with dominated garbage hands and hitting or fuckers *min raising in the SB with 5 BB with AK*. I don't know what that is supposed to accomplish. 

Gonna try and focus on cash as soon as I'm out of the red.


----------



## Infinite Jest

^
Maybe the SB was hoping to look weak, and that BB would re-raise? Dumb (because you'd have to call a re-raise there with anything) but I can sort of see the logic.

On the "calling with junk": smile and make a note of their name . I'm finding with SnG's that I'm doing better now that I realise some people are idiot calling stations. Called me down to the river and hit a flush against the odds? Fine. I'll just check-fold the river. You're an idiot, I will get my chips back sooner or later.

(Still, I see your point: I can't play cash games for shit - maybe you're just a better cash than SnG player).


----------



## Fjones

ehhhh.  

Let me see if I understand this -- You are giving up sngs because you cannot beat people who call with junk?  So you are gonig to play cash games where people play better hands? 

.............................

I am not trying to give you a hard time, but this doesn't sound very logical to me.  

Online cash games are VERY difficult to beat.   They involve deeper level play and thought than sngs do, which are mostly pre-flop strategy.  

Also, regarding the guy who has 5 BB and min raises with AK -- He has 5 BB.  Who cares what he does with AK.  Eitherway, he is taking it the whole way, so why not min raise?


----------



## Bedhead

Infinite Jest said:


> I will get my chips back sooner or later.



Until he triples up w/ A7 against KK and QQ and... you become short stacked, push, and he sucks out on you with like a gut shot w/ 46o because he's running in donk god mode. You bubble, and the other short stack running 50/4 makes the money.     LOL

Looked at some graphs, playing better over the last 100 or so games compared to before. Just need to focus on tilt control and concentration.

This always makes me laugh when I'm feeling down. This guys voice really makes the video. 
How to play JJ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9CBtSW0kA


----------



## Fjones

stick with sngs for awhile.  cash games are annoying.  full ring you will have a bunch of people playing 10/7 or 10/8 and 6 handed you will need to play 19/17 to eb profitable, which is not easy to do.  

Then again, sngs can be really annoying too, as evidenced by this chart which makes me want to quit...


----------



## Infinite Jest

Good to hear about your friends, nguboi.

I'm running cold; have lost about 20% of my bankroll starting with that QQ on the bubble I posted above. Playing OK, mostly, but getting unlucky. (Flop a full, get outdrawn - though to be fair he had a higher pair than me; went out with AA to some fool who couldn't fold preflop, played hands like K3 sooted and made a flush, took me out with K9 off - yeah, great call in the BB to an EP raiser, idiot). 

Favourite story (not real poker): playing Indian in a home game (you get one card, hold it to your forehead so everyone else can see it, and you can't). One guy's showing an Ace, he bets....and another guy flat calls him! Putting even money in the pot on a 1 in 17 chance that he's also got an A, and splits the pot!


----------



## basix

> I'm done w/ SnGs as soon as I break even, a few more bucks to go. I just can't deal with people calling all ins with dominated garbage hands and hitting or fuckers min raising in the SB with 5 BB with AK. I don't know what that is supposed to accomplish.



quit poker then

Or learn that ppl playing bad hands and making mistakes is where your profit comes from


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> F poker for a while man, its been so frustrating in every aspect I just don't know what to do.
> 
> In other news.  To add insult to injury, a friend of mine, who just started playing 2 months ago, recently won a tourny on full tilt for 2400$.  This made me want to puke.  He is the type of player who raised 8x with AA, and min raises with anything else.  I have seen him raise UTG with suited junk like 5 2 and even if the board comes A K 2 suited he will check raise all in/ or open shove and luck box out.  This all happened in the tourny he won.
> 
> Stuff like this just boggles the fuck out of my mind.  I've seen 3 people I know play poker for less than 3 months, play HORRIBLY bad, and have 4 digit tourny wins.  HOW?  It makes me feel like I should just play like shit and hope its my lucky day today.  I unno man.
> 
> Also, 2 of my friends are in vegas playing WSOP events.  AJ played the 2000 PLHE event Thursday, and came in 100ish out of 450 and.  They both played the 1500$ NLHE event 39 today, with 2720 players, and one busted KK v A9 AIPF for a big stack middle of the day, and the other had a roller coaster day, busting with 10minutes left in the first day KK v AA button v aggressive BB.
> 
> AJ is  DEEP.  He already won a seat into the Main Event, and bought in about 35,000$ worth of tournies.  I hope BIG BIG things for both of them, and if any of them make a final table (crosses fingers) they are going to fly me out there and I am taking off work.
> 
> Please, poker gods, help them along, I need a vegas vacation





this is because-----    a nutcase aggro strategy of any kind is better than an overly tight strategy.  You simply do not get enough good hands to overcoem the rate of attrition that comes with icnerasing blinds and antes.  

If you can get 1st place in a large tournament 1 time out of 100, you are killing them.   So, play aggressively.  Make the cards secondary - a backup plan in case your aggression forces a showdown.  99 times out of 100 this strategy will not win, but 1 time out of 100, it will.  And the profits will be enormous.


----------



## Bedhead

Do you guys use PT3 or HEM? They do basically the same thing right? I've heard PT3's graphs are prettier, but that's about the only difference. I had a good experience w/ the HEM trial. Just want to hear your guy's opinions on what you use/would use.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Do you guys use PT3 or HEM? They do basically the same thing right? I've heard PT3's graphs are prettier, but that's about the only difference. I had a good experience w/ the HEM trial. Just want to hear your guy's opinions on what you use/would use.



I use HEM.  It is still mostly geared toward cash games, but it is pretty good for tournaments.


----------



## Bedhead

Think I'm gonna go with HEM. I liked the trial and how the program was laid out. And now I can buy it with poker profitz.


----------



## Fjones

So, I finally had a breakthrough day, Sort of.  FTP Decided to allow me to win some all-ins for a change, resulting in two 1sts and two 2nds, for a total profit of $2867.00.  

Meanwhile, I got another final 3 table finish in a 1000+ person tournament, my FOURTH of the week, and third that was actually final 2 tables.   But again it was not meant to be.  But the money from that put me over $3000 for the day, making it my second biggest day ever.


----------



## Fjones

By "The Casino," do you mean Anywhere in Atlantic City?  These days there are casinos everywhere so I guess "the casino" could mean just about anything. 

Did you see that Harrington has a book out about Cash games?  His Tournament books are held in high regard so I am very curious about this.


----------



## Fjones

I have probably tilted away 10 Gs from the utter boredom of cash games.  I am probably profitable overall, but I am around 10 Gs under where I should be.


----------



## stinkfoot

my buddy finished 210-ish 2 years ago in the main event. won $54k, minus the 10k buy in for a total winnings of $44k.

the sad thing is he was top ten in chips overall at the start of his final day.


----------



## Max Power

nguboi said:


> whur is everyone?!
> 
> Friend just got done playing day 2a in the WSOP Main Event.  Ended the day with 138,000 in chips! Nice, healthy stack.  Day 2b starts tomorrow, then day 2a and 2b will combine thursday and play again!
> 
> EXCITINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.
> 
> first is 8.5~ millionish



It's a 7k field; the main event is a marathon not a sprint.

Don't start thinking about first place just yet.


----------



## alasdairm

i just found out that a guy i work with in tahoe in the winter won a pokerstars satellite seat at the main event. he's through to day 2 but short stacked due to trip kings being cracked twice late on day one.

alasdair


----------



## ostrich

Bedhead said:


> Nguboi, there's a bunch of forum threads & articles out there about the current situation. Just google the words "poker monies freeze PPA." I know that Wells Fargo was one of the banks that the gov. targeted. They froze the accounts of US banks that handle transactions for stars, FT, etc.
> 
> Fjones' rant is funny, especially #1 'cuz I'm in the middle of 2 SnGs when I open this page and I had just gotten it in w/ AK against AJ and doubled up. Board was A245T. Guy in chat goes "wow, I folded 32." Then I go on to read the rant...
> 
> Bad players who accumulate chips by limping and getting lucky puts me on life tilt, especially when they make the money. Then they put in ridiculous overbets, like they don't want a call, and I stack off w/ middle pair. He's not getting a call unless he's crushed, I don't know maybe he had a seizure at the time and misclicked. Maximize equity, extract value, lol wut? 8) I don't think the level of thinking at micro SnGs is particularly insane either...




LoL, I must thank you for this post, I tried that ridiculous overbet like I don't want a call... he called with JJ, flop was 2 6 K i had AK, I wanted to see whether people really do stack off with middish pockets (i thought he was around 88-TT, not JJ).

This was a cash game, and yeah, really wasn't my best moment, but i just had to try it. I did win $10 though, poor bloke.

EDIT: the overbet was after the flop, not preflop, pot was around $4.50


----------



## Fjones

I am a winning player and I stack off there sometimes. 

It is really annoying.  I raise, someone flat calls, I have JJ, flop is K 7 3, the guy open ships.  WHAT THE FUCK.  I call that every time.   Soemtimes I look really stupid when I do.  Thel ast guy who did it had AK.  Who does that with AK?  Why risk inducing a fold?


----------



## ostrich

it was an experiment, not an actual style to be honest.

and it was a low level cash game, not a $75 sit n go ;-)

i know this is a serious thread, but sometimes i do play poker for fun..


----------



## Bedhead

Finally passed 600 FPPs. SHIPPPPP the pokerstars hat!

Took a week off from poker being down in SC on vacation, but it feels good to be playing again. 

Anyone notice that a lot of good players are going deep in the WSOP ME? I'm hoping Phil Ivey takes it down.


----------



## Bedhead

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 (t200)
MP2 (t1885)
CO (t1080)
Button (t3180)
Hero (SB) (t3387)
BB (t2218)
UTG (t1550)

*Hero's M*: 45.16

*Preflop*: Hero is SB with 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_1 fold_, MP1 bets t200 (All-In), _1 fold_, CO calls t200, _1 fold_, Hero calls t175, _1 fold_

*Flop*: (t650) 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, CO bets t880 (All-In), Hero calls t880

*Turn*: (t2410) 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(3 players, 2 all-in)

*River*: (t2410) J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(3 players, 2 all-in)

*Total pot:* t2410

Results:
Hero had 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (three of a kind, tens).
MP1 had A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (high card, Ace).
CO had K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: Hero won t2410

So sick bro. The guy HANDED ME HIS STACK. And for what? There was NO SIDEPOT. I though this was slightly funny.


----------



## Fjones

The guy had pocket kings on a queen high board.  Obviously he is going to bet.  7 times out of 8 you do not have a set of tens there.   Just because someone is all in doesn't mean a person with a made hand is supposed to check down and give free cards to a 3rd player in the hand.  

He didn't "hand you his stack," he lost with an overpair to a set.   It's not like he was bluffing into a dry side pot, he was betting a very good made hand.  the "For what" is that he was tryign to win the pot, just like any standard hand.  Why does it matter if there is no side pot, he has the all in guy crushed for the main pot.  

It is possibly that you, like many, have misunderstood the "rule" about a multi-way hand with someone all in.   The rule is you don't BLUFF into a dry side pot, because there is obviously nothing to gain -- The all in guy is not folding, and the 3rd player only puts chips in when he has a hand, so it is a clear lose / lose situation.  

The rule does NOT say you should avoid betting for value, which is what he did.  

On another note -- I do think it was a mistake to not reraise pre flop with the TT.  TT is not a hand you want to play Multi-way.  

And the flat call by the KK is an egregious error.  He only had 1000 chips total, so obviously he should shove pre flop.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Had a nice low-level result a few days ago, got 4th out of 350 (though only in a $1 rebuy). Played some nice poker I thought - did my usual low-M/bubble tactic of shoving any half-decent hand, and as usual people folded and let me double up just through taking blinds. Made some good reads as to when I could bluff postflop. Made a bad error to go out (KQ in SB, 4-handed. Raised but didn't shove. Villain (who had over half the total chips) called me with J4s and hit). Still, for the level of the game, I played pretty well.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> The rule does NOT say you should avoid betting for value, which is what he did.
> 
> On another note -- I do think it was a mistake to not reraise pre flop with the TT.  TT is not a hand you want to play Multi-way.
> 
> And the flat call by the KK is an egregious error.  He only had 1000 chips total, so obviously he should shove pre flop.



I see your point. I hadn't considered the other side of the equation. The pot was 3/4 villain's stack and he had an over pair to a draw heavy board. Giving me a free card is not smart, and the shorty probably pushed w/ Ax or garbage. 

I was thinking more along the lines of by checking it down we both gain tourney equity if the shorty is knocked out -- but I see how that's not the best option for villain as he has the near nuts here, and KK on this board is something like an 80% favorite against a random hand according to pokerstove. 

And the TT flat was weird. I felt it was too strong to fold, but at the same time I felt shoving 20BBs w/ TT was a little spewy. At the time I thought we were going to check it down since he just called and didn't rr so I didn't mind putting in 4BBs.

It's funny to because I have Collin Moshman's book on SnGs and its all covered in there under "implicit collusion"... Guess I need to go back and take more studious notes.


----------



## Bedhead

How sick is this shit? 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP (t1410)
CO (t855)
Button (t2090)
Hero (SB) (t1385)
BB (t5620)
UTG (t2140)

*Hero's M*: 18.47

*Preflop*: Hero is SB with 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



UTG bets t150, MP calls t150, _1 fold_, Button calls t150, _1 fold_, BB raises to t250, UTG calls t100, MP calls t100, Button calls t100

*Flop*: (t1025) 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(4 players)
BB bets t50, UTG raises to t250, MP calls t250, Button raises to t1840 (All-In), _2 folds_, MP calls t910 (All-In)

*Turn*: (t3645) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*River*: (t3645) 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*Total pot:* t3645

Results:
Button had 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (four of a kind, fives).
MP had A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (full house, Aces over fives).
Outcome: Button won t3645


----------



## Fjones

I am grinding the $24 45 mans sngs now.  

I just played 250 in a week  (!)   and made $1991.00

not bad for 33 hours of work.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Oh how I love beating ignorant, arrogant players. Down to five at the table with the blinds going up, I'm 4th so I'm pushing any decent hand (M of about 5 or 6) and this guy starts taunting me for going all in. He's a terrible, passive player but the chip leader. Other guy tells him he sucks. I propose a side bet that the other guy will win the tourney and we spend the rest of the game with him telling us how great he is. 20 minutes or so later I've gone from having 1000 chips to winning.

Back playing good poker again (for my level, obviously).


----------



## Bedhead

Whats the worst downswing you SnG grinders have experienced? I know you guys play MTT SnGs, but for 9 man SnGs do yall have any experience or knowledge of sick downswings? 

I'm in a slump right now and realize poker is a long term game, but it's really frustrating. I try to be patient and play decent hands, but bad players keep luckboxing into the money. VPIP stats that would make you puke.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

My worst downswing is 45 buy-ins (and counting) at the 24$ 45 mans on full tilt.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Whats the worst downswing you SnG grinders have experienced? I know you guys play MTT SnGs, but for 9 man SnGs do yall have any experience or knowledge of sick downswings?
> 
> I'm in a slump right now and realize poker is a long term game, but it's really frustrating. I try to be patient and play decent hands, but bad players keep luckboxing into the money. VPIP stats that would make you puke.



I am pretty sure I have run flat or negative for over 100 games before at 9 person STTs.  

Do you have your Stats from poker tracker or hold em manager? 

What are your VPIP / PFR and post flop aggression?  What is your CBet%?  how often are you raise/folding ?


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> I am pretty sure I have run flat or negative for over 100 games before at 9 person STTs.
> 
> Do you have your Stats from poker tracker or hold em manager?
> 
> What are your VPIP / PFR and post flop aggression?  What is your CBet%?  how often are you raise/folding ?



These stats aren't just from the $3 9 mans, but everything including the $1 SnGs. I couldn't figure out how to filter stats for just the $3 ones in HEM. 

9 players: 8/4 
6 players: 13/10 
4 players: 21/18
(All over 3k hands each) The numbers increase all the way to HU where I'm running 54/39. I Cbet roughly 60% of the time. Post flop aggression is ~3, fluctuating slightly according to the # of players left in the SnG. 

9 handed I'm only limping PPs 22-99 and raising TT+ AK and AQ. That's why I guess I appear so nitty. Early on in a limped pot I fold my draws unless I'm getting good odds and generally throw away top pair w/ a shitty kicker if there's 4 ppl in the pot and action. 

I feel like I have a pretty good idea of when to shove over high blind limpers, abuse short stacks etc,, but it's like every time I'm short stacked I push A7 into AK or QK into KK. And in other spots I get unlucky in crucial situations where if villain hadn't sucked out I'd be in really good shape to make the money and get 1st or second.
I'm down -10 BIs which is perhaps just variance. Need to put more volume in.


----------



## Fjones

13/10 is good.  21/18 is good.  post flop aggression is good.  

But 8 / 4 ? WHat's up with that?  

Limping half the hands you play?  That is not good.  

ALso, some explanation of theo ther things you sald would be useful --

"generally throw away top pair w/ a shitty kicker if there's 4 ppl in the pot and action."

Generally speaking, you shouldn't be playing acrds with shitty kickers.  WHat kinds of hands are you referring to?

"Early on in a limped pot I fold my draws unless I'm getting good odds"

What kind of draws?  SOmetimes it is good to get aggressing with draws.  It doesn't have to be a "call or fold" situation, often raise is the right play.  If you have two overs and a flush draw, or a straight and flush draw, or one over and a draw, or middle pair and a flush draw, I suually raise.  

But you really shouldn't be playing draws that often.  The pots you should be playing should be YOUR raised pots, which means you should be Cbetting.  Thus, you shouldn't really be in a position to call draws to often.  

CBetting 60% is  rather low.  I would try to increase that.  Most winning players are around 80%.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> Generally speaking, you shouldn't be playing acrds with shitty kickers.  WHat kinds of hands are you referring to?



Mostly hands in the BB in the first couple of levels where I have K4, Q7, J3, etc. Hands of that nature where I have top pair on the flop, but my hand and is most likely not good by the river. The same goes for when I flop flush draws in the first two levels. Unless I'm getting odds, I throw it away. If I flop top pair + a FD I'll play it. I was referring to marginal hands early where I'm in the BB and everyone limps so I check. 

I was just referring to the 10/20 and 15/30 levels. I play draws more aggressively later on. But try not to spew chips early on if that makes sense. If I don't flop big early on I tend to let it go as there is plenty of time left and plenty of chips to work with. At the $3 games, players tend to be really spewy early on so I try not to get involved unless I have a good hand.

Jesus christ. 3:1 for the rest of my life and I would still lose. Its so sick.


----------



## Fjones

yes, when you are in the big blind, you should not be getting involved.  Just because you are forced to see a flop, doesn't mean you should lose chips with a weak hand.   But tighten up that 8/4.  

Are you calling other people's raises often?  If so, that is a mistake.


----------



## Bedhead

Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, July 29, 02:25:43 ET 2009
Table 183021080 1 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: $1580.00 USD )
Seat 5: $4750.00 USD )
Seat 6: $2080.00 USD )
Seat 8: $4205.00 USD )
Seat 9: NikolasM7 ( $885.00 USD )
NikolasM7 posts small blind [$50.00 USD].
 posts big blind [$100.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
*Dealt to NikolasM7 [  8s 8d ]*
 folds
folds
raises [$300.00 USD]
raises [$835.00 USD]
folds
calls [$585.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, Qs, 3d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4c ]
** Dealing River ** [ 7h ]

Standard push? Villian is 21/4. He's priced in to call and it's most likely a flip w/ face cards but I'm short stacked and need to double up. Is gambling here OK? Or should I wait for a better spot? Guys to my left loose and blinds are about to go up to t75/150

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds 25 Ante (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t8420)
Button (t1545)
Hero (SB) (t1360)
BB (t2175)

*Hero's M*: 3.40

*Preflop*: Hero is SB with A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



UTG calls t200, _1 fold_, Hero bets t1335 (All-In), _1 fold_, UTG calls t1135

*Flop*: (t2970) K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Turn*: (t2970) 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*River*: (t2970) 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Total pot:* t2970

Limper is 47/15. The pot represents 50% of my stack. A8 is marginally +EV against a 40% range and I have some fold equity, amirite? With his stack and VPIP he's probably limping all kinds of garbage here. Another standard shove?

SnGWiz says this is a fold. What do you guys think? Really Marginal?


----------



## Fjones

ok, the first hand -- were you playing $50 $100?  I am confused.  Why does it say real money?  I am goign to assume it was a SNG.  

This is not a good push.  You have no fold equity, and you are going against a 21/4.  if he only raises 4% of the time,  that means he is raising TT+  and AQ+.  88 does not match up well against that range.  Now, maybe he was just getting bad cards and thus was not raising a lot.  But, he did have a VPiP of 21, so that shoots down that theory.  

As for the second hand -- SNGWIZ says that is a fold !????  That seems asinine.  I shove there 100% of the tiem without hesitation.  

If the guy is playing 47/15, he is indeed limping a whole lot of crap and you have tons of fold equity.  does SNG WIZ factor in the 47/15?


----------



## Bedhead

Managed to snag first fucking finally. After about 20 or so SnGs... Things may be starting to turn around.


----------



## Bedhead

Honestly, how fucking rigged is this shit. God damn tilt. Does it mean I'm playing good if every single time I bust it's a bad beat? 
81/19 for the rest of my life jesus christ, wtf.


----------



## Infinite Jest

I'm in a regional freeroll on Stars tomorrow. 

$100K total prize money. 6000 get paid. So far, there's only 9700 entered! And only another three qualifiers. So given that some people won't show, probably everyone who plays will finish ITM. (Admittedly only for $5).

First is $10K. Any tips for playing such a big tourney? (It's standard 10 minute blinds, 10/20 to start with 1500 chips). Standard will be low - the qualifiers were 750 player turbo freerolls with the first 150 qualifying, so some real donks got in.)


----------



## Fjones

play very tight early on.  NO reason to get involvd in marginal spots.  As slow as it moves,y you will find people to donate chips in a few spots.  

AJ utg full table, fold.  pocket pairs, maybe limp and see a cheap flop for set value.  Don't get invovled unless you hit.   Bet strong made hands for value (Top pair top kicker and better).  

Once antes come in, steal blinds more from late position.  Try to pick up chips withotu showdowns, byt raising late position limpers and raisers.  

My apologies for bad typing.  I took Klonopin and I am getting sleepy.  

Good luck.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Thanks, that's pretty much how I play, though sometimes I try playing hyper-aggressive early on and look to either double up early, or go out. But this one, I'll play as you say (I'm picturing a *lot* of folding for the first two hours...).


----------



## Fjones

I didn't realize how tight some of my tournaments are until i reviewed some hand by hand in HoldEmManager.  I play 8 to 12 games at a time, so I don't pay attention to how many hands I am playing or not playing in a particular tournament. If something BEEPS. I click.  big hands comes up and I lose, I close the game window and start another.  

When reviewing the games later though hand by hand, I was amazed when I noticed how many tournaments I would only play one or two hands from and then bust (with Ak or QQ or something).  

If someone were just playing that game only, he would probably have been involved in other hands, just because of the sheer boredom.  

A lot  of people say to me, "I can't play 4 or 6 or 10 tables like you do, I wouldn't be able to keep up.  But the thing is, they probably could, if they played fewer hands.


----------



## johanneschimpo

^ I *need* to have other shit going on when I play or I run the risk of playing like shit. I usually watch TV/browse the net/other as I play (1-2 tables at a time) so I have something to occupy my mind and keep me from trying to get fancy and donking off chips on stupid hands.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> I guess I was thinking he sucked enough to 3 bet raise me with a strong K, but no FH.



This is what I would have thought. 

In that situation, I think I cry and click call. Standard cooler. 

Did you pay the 215 entry fee or sat in btw ?


----------



## ostrich

You could have just called the initial bet, rather than raising on the river?
Kx would call your raise, but you've committed your tournament life with the raise as you saw. That said, my main problem is that I'm not aggressive enough, I guess with an aggressive style, that was pretty much unavoidable.


----------



## Bedhead

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG (t1260)
UTG+1 (t540)
MP1 (t1565)
MP2 (t2640)
MP3 (t1185)
CO (t1410)
Hero (Button) (t1425)
SB (t1545)
BB (t1930)

*Hero's M*: 31.67

*Preflop*: Hero is Button with K
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



UTG calls t30, UTG+1 bets t540 (All-In), MP1 raises to t1565 (All-In), _2 folds_, CO calls t1410 (All-In), Hero calls t1425 (All-In), _3 folds_

Insta-snap-call? Do I cry and call? Is it even mathematically correct to call here? Or do I gain much more equity by watching these 3 clowns all in? Players stack off w/ anything here.. so it's not like I'm only up against AA AK here. A lot of mid pocket pairs QK, AQ, and AK here.


----------



## Bedhead

^Definitely sick. The allure of MTTs is those big cashes, but the variance is sick. I think I would go on severe monkey tilt. 

In that KK 4 way pot the other callers were 99 (original shover), then AQ, TT to my right... but a ace fell on the flop. Motherfucker. I also figured that if one or two guys had AK then they'd be drawing to 2/3 outs to hit an ace and I'd be in good shape. 

Is there a progression from SnG to MTTs, like playing 45 mans, 90 mans, 180 mans, then large fields or is it best to just jump right into MTTs?

Also, do you stake your friends nguboi?


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

I would have raised the turn.  And when he bets the river just press call.  Remember that in a limped pot he could have anything....


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Yeah, its just hard to just call with a full house, because Im expecting to get huge value.  But, like I said, I should of just MIN raised the river, and folded to any re raise, but shit, its pretty hard to fold in the early stages of a super flounder infested tournament when only 3~ hands beat you. Ill accept the fact if I was a somewhat decent player, I could of folded.
> 
> What would Fjones of done?  folded on the turn?



I go broke.  If he has me beat, oh well.  Most of the hands that beat us there would have raised pre flop.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

nguboi said:


> 6 left!



I am railing... what's your sn?? GL GL GL


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> UTG (t1260)
> UTG+1 (t540)
> MP1 (t1565)
> MP2 (t2640)
> MP3 (t1185)
> CO (t1410)
> Hero (Button) (t1425)
> SB (t1545)
> BB (t1930)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 31.67
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is Button with K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UTG calls t30, UTG+1 bets t540 (All-In), MP1 raises to t1565 (All-In), _2 folds_, CO calls t1410 (All-In), Hero calls t1425 (All-In), _3 folds_
> 
> Insta-snap-call? Do I cry and call? Is it even mathematically correct to call here? Or do I gain much more equity by watching these 3 clowns all in? Players stack off w/ anything here.. so it's not like I'm only up against AA AK here. A lot of mid pocket pairs QK, AQ, and AK here.



Come on man.  You have KK in a $3 tournament.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

OMG sick turn card! he makes a flush


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> ** true that Fjones, I wasn't really upset with it until I asked people to analyze the hand, but of course, in the given situation, It is true, about K6/K5 is what he probably had.  Oh well, F that shiat, watching my friend play, it makes me relize i do not have what it takes to be a poker legend.



I dont fold full houses.  Ever.  Not online.  People show up with way too many bizarre hands.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Fjones said:


> Come on man.  You have KK in a $3 tournament.



Yeah.. I have to agree with Fjones on this one... in all seriousness, it's just a $3 tournament.


----------



## Fjones

the stacks are so deep.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

sick beat 66 < QQ


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> OMG on that all diamond board where he re shoved, he had 22d!!!!!!!!!!!!! ballsy!!!!!!



That is borderline insane.  was that a good shove?  It seems suicidal.  But it worked.  What do I know.  I am the master of 17th place in these things.


----------



## Bedhead

Standard push? 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP (t1340)
Button (t2750)
SB (t1330)
Hero (BB) (t2575)
UTG (t5505)

*Hero's M*: 11.44

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_3 folds_, SB bets t300, Hero raises to t2575 (All-In), SB calls t1030 (All-In)

*Flop*: (t2660) 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*Turn*: (t2660) J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*River*: (t2660) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*Total pot:* t2660

What about here? Flat? Not deep enough to set mine? We're OOP, overcards will most likely come on the flop... We have a decent stack, but I kind of feel like calling here is just leaking chips if I C/F to overs on the flop most of the time. Villain is tight btw. 

Poker Stars $3.00+$0.40 USD No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds - 5 players - View hand 217991
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

*BTN: t2790		 M = 12.40*
SB: t1445		 M = 6.42
*Hero (BB): t3535		 M = 15.71*
UTG: t3015		 M = 13.40
CO: t2715		 M = 12.07

*Pre Flop:* (t225) Hero is BTN with 7 :club: 7 :diamond:
_2 folds_, BTN raises to t450, _1 fold_, Hero ?


And...

What do you guys do when you're in a slump? Whether you're running bad or just playing bad, and you lack that confidence you once had with your game? Take time off? Review HH? Watch some videos? Is it possible to do a self-analysis and determine whether you're playing bad or just running bad?


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Standard push?
> 
> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.40 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> MP (t1340)
> Button (t2750)
> SB (t1330)
> Hero (BB) (t2575)
> UTG (t5505)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 11.44
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is BB with 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _3 folds_, SB bets t300, Hero raises to t2575 (All-In), SB calls t1030 (All-In)
> 
> *Flop*: (t2660) 4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 7
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 2 all-in)
> 
> *Turn*: (t2660) J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 2 all-in)
> 
> *River*: (t2660) A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 2 all-in)
> 
> *Total pot:* t2660
> 
> What about here? Flat? Not deep enough to set mine? We're OOP, overcards will most likely come on the flop... We have a decent stack, but I kind of feel like calling here is just leaking chips if I C/F to overs on the flop most of the time. Villain is tight btw.
> 
> Poker Stars $3.00+$0.40 USD No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t75/t150 Blinds - 5 players - View hand 217991
> The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
> 
> *BTN: t2790		 M = 12.40*
> SB: t1445		 M = 6.42
> *Hero (BB): t3535		 M = 15.71*
> UTG: t3015		 M = 13.40
> CO: t2715		 M = 12.07
> 
> *Pre Flop:* (t225) Hero is BTN with 7 :club: 7 :diamond:
> _2 folds_, BTN raises to t450, _1 fold_, Hero ?
> 
> 
> And...
> 
> What do you guys do when you're in a slump? Whether you're running bad or just playing bad, and you lack that confidence you once had with your game? Take time off? Review HH? Watch some videos? Is it possible to do a self-analysis and determine whether you're playing bad or just running bad?



88 standard shove.  

the 77 I probably shove.  

When poker is not going well I often take time off.  That makes it worse.


----------



## Bedhead

....


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

wow impressive.  he seems to be on a heater


----------



## Fjones

WTF.  How does he do this.  I want lessons.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

I wish I could run above expectation


----------



## Max Power

sick life


----------



## johanneschimpo

Am I supposed to post every time my kings get beaten by aces? Its part of the game man. Happens 80% of the time, right? If you had hit a king on the river, would you still post it? Probably not. Or if you had the aces and he had the kings? Probably not. BUT- if you had the aces and he had the kings, and he hit a king on the river... Yeah, I know you'd post that one. 


I guess what I'm trying to say is: *ITS POKER*


----------



## johanneschimpo

Haha, I know what you mean. I hope that post above didn't look dickish; I didn't mean it that way.


Its all selective memory anyway. If a hand came up where you spiked a king on the river to make trip kings to beat pocket aces (or where you had aces and they held up to kings), you wouldn't post that hand up anyway. It wouldn't look cool... It wouldn't show skill... You know what I mean? 

Post it up here: "Check out my sweet suck-out! I got lucky for once*!"







* = it wouldn't really be the first time, but its that poker player selective memory thing again.


----------



## Fjones

I play 2000 to 4000 hands per day.  

I have at least 20 hands every day that are excruciating.


----------



## iNOVA

Fjones said:


> I play 2000 to 4000 hands per day.
> 
> I have at least 20 hands every day that are excruciating.



Poor baby.


----------



## Fjones

iNOVA said:


> Poor baby.



Fascinating.  I saw "latest post - Inova" and I immediately groaned.  I knew it was going to be a pointless post, and it didn't disappoint. 

I wrote what I wrote as a REPONSE to the discussion about nguboi's tough losses that he posted.  The point of my post was, "Yes, we all lose annoying hands like that, no sense posting specifics." 

You seem to have misunderstood that.  Why don't you just go away?  This is a serious thread about poker, and you obviously have nothing to add.  Go troll the ecstasy discussion as you usually do.


----------



## Fjones

I think you can transfer the hands.  I don't see why not.  

I always hated the way poker tracker changed my HH file names after import.  Does it still do that?  Hold em manager does not.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

^ shouldn't play poker when you're high.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

how many have you played?


----------



## Fjones

I go through insane dry spells at 45 mans, where I only need to outlast 39 people.  In a 180 man?   I cannot imagine.  I admire you for even trying them, let alone succeeding at them.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> I know what I was doing wrong.  I think I was to push-heavy in early posisiton, you know, when you have that like 8ish M with a marginal A10-KQs etc type hand.  Once I tightened up a lil bit, I started to get deep in my 180s.  Ima grind em here in a few minutes
> 
> But shiat, I 10 tables for 6 hours yesterday and put in 148 games.
> 
> Went on life tilt, and put 50$ into the .25 .50 PLO game, and mann.. wtf!  I had QQ66 double suit, potted to 2.25 in the SB, BB called, button called.  I FLOPPED IT..  Q 6d 3d MAN! i flopped double set!!  I check, dude bet 4, guy called 4, I potted to like 24, dude shoved for 29 i called...
> 
> He had openended straight+flush draw and got there on the river.  Man, PLO is rapage at its finest.
> 
> Time to grind.



M of 8, those are hasty pushes.  

I hate PLO.  I only play HL.  

A double set isn't especially useful though, you have your own cards for a boat.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> The spots I am thinking of are a lil more than 8 I think.  Like small example.
> 
> You got AQ UTG with 1250 chips, blinds 50/100.  . This should be a fold... I THINK.  if it is 100/200 auto shove... but risking 1250 to win 150?   its situations like that, I might have 4900 chips with blinds 200/400 with A9o UTG. I think that is a bit to light for such early POS, i got called by sooooo many better hands just over and over again.. I played right tonight, I was to robotic yesterday.
> 
> And yeah PLO is the classic, i am on super tilt, time to go play PLO.  The first major pot I lost at a PLO game, .50 1$ after I had won a substantial amount, I lost a 115$ pot when my river boat lost to straight flush.  I have never had success at PLO.
> 
> And hey, did you all watch 2 months 2 million (2m2mm) on G4?  That show is the online poker players life.  I really enjoy it, those dudes are fucking nerds, but who gives a fuck when you are balla balla.




I don't fold AQ pre flop in an unopened pot.  stack 1250, blinds 50 100?  I think either shove, open to 300 and go the whole way if you get called, or try a limp reraise all in.   Then again, maybe this is a leak of mine.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

Um.  I don't like the open there with 12BB... you have a repopping stack.  get it all in pre.


----------



## Max Power

PLO is for sick gambling degens.













It's the only game I play nowadays.


----------



## Infinite Jest

MaxPowers said:


> PLO is for sick gambling degens.



Real men play HORSE or 8-Game


----------



## Max Power

Touché.

:D


----------



## chinky

anyone wanna play on poker stars right now????

pm me or respond back here


----------



## TomG4TV

nguboi said:


> And hey, did you all watch 2 months 2 million (2m2mm) on G4?  That show is the online poker players life.  I really enjoy it, those dudes are fucking nerds, but who gives a fuck when you are balla balla.



Nguboi: I'm working with the show and I'm glad to hear you liked it. Don't forget that the second episode airs tomorrow (Sunday) at 9pm ET/PT on G4. Hope you enjoy it -- let me know what you think.

Everyone else: if you're an online poker player, you'll dig the show. You can get more info at http://bit.ly/2m2mm, or you can friend the Facebook fan page (http://www.facebook.com/2m2mm) or follow the show on Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/2months2million).


----------



## chinky

i dont think you can promote your shit here...and the only thing cool about G4 is that hot chick olivia munn.yeah i said it.

are you in a boy band?
no im in a man band.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> Time to grind.. sunday time for pstars



Suck out Sundays. Always a good day to grind.


----------



## Bedhead

God fucking damnit.  I like running 30 BI below the red line. Shit is just so rigged.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t1200)
BB (t5800)
UTG (t4880)
Hero (Button) (t1620)

*Hero's M*: 5.40

*Preflop*: Hero is Button with 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



UTG calls t200, Hero bets t1620 (All-In), _2 folds_, UTG calls t1420

*Flop*: (t3540) Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Turn*: (t3540) J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*River*: (t3540) 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Total pot:* t3540

Villain is 52/9. And you know what he had? Fucking KK. Unbelievable.


----------



## alasdairm

bedhead - i have a couple of questions about your post (#537). i assume you are 'hero'. who is villain? am i missing something?

also, did you think it was unbelievable that he called with kk or simply that he had it in the first place?

i have stopped thinking anything is unbelievable in poker (online or in real life). while i certainly seem to see ridiculously 'bad' play and dismal dismal beats online, i just try to learn something from every situation and move on. getting flustered about bad beats and bad play just makes me a poorer player.

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

I guess because his VPR is 52 ("Villain is 52/9"), meaning he plays more than half of all hands. So he could have almost anything there - his range is huge. Whereas if it was someone who only plays premium hands, you gotta expect that if he's limping, he likely has something decent.


----------



## Bedhead

alasdairm said:


> also, did you think it was unbelievable that he called with kk or simply that he had it in the first place?



My opponent was the villain in the hand. Last night was a very frustrating night. The two times I have KK, I have clowns call my all-ins w/ Ax and of course they hit their ace. Then perhaps the last SnG of the night I have TT, shortstacked, in a great spot to double up. Of all the times for this clown w/ a VPIP of 52 to have KK, it has to be when I'm dealt TT. Of all the fucking times it has to be that hand. 



Infinite Jest said:


> I guess because his VPR is 52 ("Villain is 52/9"), meaning he plays more than half of all hands. So he could have almost anything there - his range is huge. Whereas if it was someone who only plays premium hands, you gotta expect that if he's limping, he likely has something decent.



This may explain it a little better than I did. 

I think I'd probably kill myself if I started only grinding 180s.


----------



## Bedhead

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP (t3310)
Button (t3175)
SB (t3070)
Hero (BB) (t2645)
UTG (t1300)

*Hero's M*: 11.76

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_3 folds_, SB calls t75, Hero checks

*Flop*: (t300) 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t200, SB calls t200

*Turn*: (t700) Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t500, SB calls t500

*River*: (t1700) 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
SB bets t605, _Hero folds_

*Total pot:* t1700

What does he have here? A flush/straight? Villain showed down lots of broadway cards in previous hands. 23/11 over say 50 ish hands. QT ? Maybe JdTd ? 2 pair + a set would just check on the river on that board, right? 

I just can't understand what he calls the flop bet w/ and then value bets the river with. UNLESS he just luckboxed his way into a straight on the river. QT is really the only thing that makes sense.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> MP (t3310)
> Button (t3175)
> SB (t3070)
> Hero (BB) (t2645)
> UTG (t1300)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 11.76
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is BB with J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _3 folds_, SB calls t75, Hero checks
> 
> *Flop*: (t300) 4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players)
> SB checks, Hero bets t200, SB calls t200
> 
> *Turn*: (t700) Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players)
> SB checks, Hero bets t500, SB calls t500
> 
> *River*: (t1700) 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players)
> SB bets t605, _Hero folds_
> 
> *Total pot:* t1700
> 
> What does he have here? A flush/straight? Villain showed down lots of broadway cards in previous hands. 23/11 over say 50 ish hands. QT ? Maybe JdTd ? 2 pair + a set would just check on the river on that board, right?
> 
> I just can't understand what he calls the flop bet w/ and then value bets the river with. UNLESS he just luckboxed his way into a straight on the river. QT is really the only thing that makes sense.



You're overthinking the game.  

First of all, that's a lame fold on the river.  You already voluntarily put in 700 chips, now you are folding for 625 because a scary card came?  

If that is how you want to play it, then don't bother betting the turn.  Instead, check the turn, then bet that same 500 at the river and guarantee your self a showdown (Or call his 500 at the river if he bets).  

Many people just bet at  boards that have 4 to a straight or 4 to a flush.  Why?  Because people sometimes FOLD TOP TWO PAIR when they do.  

I have a philosophy that serves me well in small stakes sngs ($75 and under).  "If My hand is good enough for bets on two streets, it's good enough for bets on three streets."  

"Maybe JdTd ? 2 pair + a set would just check on the river on that board, right?"

Who knows?  People at small stakes usually have little logic or reason behind their play.  

Last night someone min raised UTG to 100.  I shipped 1100 (22 big blinds) with AK.  he snap called with 5 6.  

Why bother trying to figure out what people are doing or why?  At small stakes SNGs, play should be very mechanical and robotic. Decisions should be rare.  

Regarding the TT vs. KK hand -- That sucks, but even the worst players still get KK and AA sometimes.  You played it right.


----------



## Fjones

I noticed this guy while browsing through OPR rankings. It isn't easy to play this poorly.  He has yet to even make the FIRST percentile in ANY year.  He is not even better than ONE out of 100 players, on average.  He has lost $11,000 playing $9 buy-ins.  That's 1200 buy-ins.  
At one point, he finished 38th - 45th (out of 45 !!) in 15 out of 16 games (circled in red).  






*In August, he has elevated his futility to a new level.  *






So, imagine my surprise when I see him AT MY TABLE!  

I said, "This should be fun to watch."  

He played every hand, raising or reraising pre flop.  He went broke on most flops, or tried to at least.  Someone tried to bluff him with 9 high on one river, and he called.. with JACK HIGH.  AND WAS GOOD.  I am not making this up. He bad beat people left and right, building a huge stack.  

I get it in good against him, and of course, I lose.  Before too long, so did he.  

Life goes on.


----------



## Bedhead

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 (t1895)
MP2 (t1300)
CO (t2060)
Button (t1835)
SB (t1760)
Hero (BB) (t1550)
UTG (t1330)
UTG+1 (t1770)

*Hero's M*: 34.44

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_1 fold_, UTG+1 calls t30, _4 folds_, SB calls t15, Hero checks

*Flop*: (t90) 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t30, UTG+1 calls t30, _1 fold_

*Turn*: (t150) 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t75, UTG+1 calls t75

*River*: (t300) K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t285, UTG+1 raises to t810, Hero calls t525

*Total pot:* t1920

Results:
Hero mucked 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (two pair, Aces and tens).
UTG+1 had J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (straight, Ace high).
Outcome: UTG+1 won t1920
_
Sick turn call brah._ I heard you had a sick price to hit your gutshot on the river. 

Ya, I know, should of bet more on the flop and turn and I meant to bet 185 on the river, but misclicked. I called his raise, even though I should of folded , because I'm tired of being weak tight and folding the best hand often. But I think I got it figured out... 

At the micros, players are much more willing to C-bet and/or fire a turn bet w/ air than say bluff all 3 streets. There are some crazies out there but the majority don't do it. In addition players at the micros pay FAR less attention to board texture than they do their own cards. So it's more likely that they have it when there's 3 cards to a straight/flush on the board compared to when they're bluffing. 

That's why I think when the betting goes call, call, lead the river w/ a value bet -- they often have it (on a drawy board).


----------



## Max Power

<--- confirmed busto


----------



## Bedhead

I'm right around -.3 % ROI for the $3s. Tonight it's been constant bad beats. They hit their 2 and 3 outers left and right. A 1/3 of my bankroll is gone since the beginning of this downswing that started a few weeks ago.

Busto may be soon...


----------



## Max Power

Bedhead said:


> I'm right around -.3 % ROI for the $3s. Tonight it's been constant bad beats. They hit their 2 and 3 outers left and right. A 1/3 of my bankroll is gone since the beginning of this downswing.



move down in stakes.


----------



## Bedhead

MaxPowers said:


> move down in stakes.



I can beat the 3s. They're soft. 

Losing a 80/20 on the bubble isn't doing wonders for my ROI either.

Edit: I need to move up to where they respect my equity.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> MP1 (t1895)
> MP2 (t1300)
> CO (t2060)
> Button (t1835)
> SB (t1760)
> Hero (BB) (t1550)
> UTG (t1330)
> UTG+1 (t1770)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 34.44
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is BB with 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _1 fold_, UTG+1 calls t30, _4 folds_, SB calls t15, Hero checks
> 
> *Flop*: (t90) 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (3 players)
> SB checks, Hero bets t30, UTG+1 calls t30, _1 fold_
> 
> *Turn*: (t150) 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players)
> Hero bets t75, UTG+1 calls t75
> 
> *River*: (t300) K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players)
> Hero bets t285, UTG+1 raises to t810, Hero calls t525
> 
> *Total pot:* t1920
> 
> Results:
> Hero mucked 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (two pair, Aces and tens).
> UTG+1 had J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , Q
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (straight, Ace high).
> Outcome: UTG+1 won t1920
> _
> Sick turn call brah._ I heard you had a sick price to hit your gutshot on the river.
> 
> Ya, I know, should of bet more on the flop and turn and I meant to bet 185 on the river, but misclicked. I called his raise, even though I should of folded , because I'm tired of being weak tight and folding the best hand often. But I think I got it figured out...
> 
> At the micros, players are much more willing to C-bet and/or fire a turn bet w/ air than say bluff all 3 streets. There are some crazies out there but the majority don't do it. In addition players at the micros pay FAR less attention to board texture than they do their own cards. So it's more likely that they have it when there's 3 cards to a straight/flush on the board compared to when they're bluffing.
> 
> That's why I think when the betting goes call, call, lead the river w/ a value bet -- they often have it (on a drawy board).



You said it yourself, but I'll mention it again.   What's with the flop bet?  

If you are doing that consistently, that would explain why you are not winning.  

Do you often make small bets when you have a big hand?  

If so, why?


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> I can beat the 3s. They're soft.
> 
> Losing a 80/20 on the bubble isn't doing wonders for my ROI either.



How many have you played?  WHat is your overall ROI?  

Variance can be frustrating, but you will lose 1 out of those 80/20 out of 5.  We tend to not notice when we win 8 or 9 in a row, so it makes it seem like we're running bad when we lose two of them.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> That's why I think when the betting goes call, call, lead the river w/ a value bet -- they often have it (on a drawy board).



Most of your chips should be in on the turn (if you have decided to bet both the flop and turn).

How much are you betting at the flop and turn?


----------



## Max Power

shout out to all the 2p2ers on here. :D


----------



## Fjones

!?  What was the bet?  That he could play 525,000 hands in a month?


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

that seems almost impossible


----------



## Bedhead

What about ballcups challenge? 

SNE by Dec 31st I think it is? He's playing 8 - 10 hrs a day.


----------



## Max Power

BandiChime ftw


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

I run bad at 45 mans


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

sick.  nice run you're on.  keep it up.


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

ship ship ship


----------



## Fjones

does KQ ever lose?


----------



## Bedhead

How much volume do you guys put in daily? I know SnG swings can be sick, so I'm wondering what the daily volume should be to 'counteract' that I guess. Mathematically, the more volume the better, but I'm wondering realistically what you guys do. 

I'm back at school now, so poker is taking a backseat to classes + partying, at least for now. Playing with any kind of alcohol in my system just burns my bankroll.


----------



## Fjones

I usually play until I get too annoyed to keep playing.  

In a good week, I play 250 games (45 man tournament).


----------



## Fjones

rough table.  Gboro might be the best there is.  He is ranked 99.99 three years in a row on BOTH major sites !?????   he is top 40 all 6 times !????  

C. Harder is one of the top players.     STammdog up a half million.  I could not find norfman on OPR.  Can he beat this all star cast??

I managed to win $650 tonight playing 45 mans.  I bullied a guy with my 9000 stack to his 58,000


----------



## Fjones

pearljammer was deep also??  That's a tough field.  Pokerstars seems saturated with sharks.


----------



## Bedhead

O RLY? 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 3.4 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 25 Ante (2 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t4450)
Hero (BB) (t9050)

*Hero's M*: 13.92

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with J
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



SB bets t4425 (All-In), Hero calls t4025

*Flop*: (t8900) 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Turn*: (t8900) 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*River*: (t8900) Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Total pot:* t8900

Results:
SB had 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (straight, five high).
Hero had J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, Jacks).
Outcome: SB won t8900

Taking some beats, but I feel like I'm playing better. Finding good spots, shoving at the right time, etc.


----------



## Fjones

I don't think the 3 5 shove is a terrible play.   He was down to 10 Big blinds, and does not nave much time to wait for a hand.  Many peopel will fold heads up to a few early all ins, not wanting to double the guy up, and not yet realizing the guy is shoving any 2.  

My session yesterday matched my worst day ever at 45 man tournaments.  I cannot get any momentum going.   

Nguboi, sounds like your friend is on fire.  The top players seem to win tournaments consistently.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> This kid is ballin.  He owns poker, and he has a show on discovery channel that will play in October.  Man him and my roomate are far far surpassing me.  They have 4th level thinking down pat, i'll fuckin raise you cause you think I think that you think you have nothing. beeeetch!



The cashes and 1st place prize money you speak of has me drooling. I'm sure they're on cloud 9. I hope you guys are having fun. Just don't blow through all that cash. I don't even know what I'd do with all that money.


----------



## Fjones

Somehow the best players just know what to do and when.  I wish I knew what it is, but I doubt it is something you can quantify.  It's about paying attention to tendencies, having the confidence to take risks and push small edges, and having a firm understanding of people's pushing and calling ranges.  

No Limit is an extraordinarily complex game in some ways, and yet in its simplicity it fools people into thinking that anyone can do it.  But that kind of thinking is absurd.  Only the gifted can excel enough to be among the truly elite, just like with anything else - Chess, football, singing, writing.  

I have lost my confidence and I barely even play any more.  This, despite career earnings of around $45,000 playing online poker tournaments.  But I don't want to be a grinder.  It's not fun.  And yet I suspect I have reached the limit of what I can accomplish in this game.  The losing streaks are so discouraging, especially in the absence of the big score that many successful players have.  

I now have anxiety and uneasiness about even starting a session, and when I do, and things go wrong, I start thinking, "here we go again.'  

That is not a recipe for success.  But I just hate losing, and I hate even more than I can so regularly lose to such inferior players.  

I do not deal well with the fact that a player can limp call a raise out of position with Ace 4, call my pot sized bet on a flop f 2 5 T, then call my all in on the turn, and hit a three and win the pot.  Four bad mistakes and he wins the pot?  What the hell?  It would be akin to a chess opponent moving his queen in front of my pawn, yet when I go to take it, the pawn explodes and sends a piece of shrapnel into my king and my army is defeated and I lose.


----------



## Fjones

You make a good point.  I don't want to make excuses, or say that I have gotten unlucky, because that sounds like loser talk, and I have talked to so many players who were convinced that is why they weren't winning, when in fact, I could easily spot soem serious flaws in their game.  

But, I will say this - There have been quite a few times in Multi-table tournaments where a bounce here, a break there, and I could have had a big score.  

I won a tournament way back on party poker with 1300 people, $15 buy in.  The prize was $4100.  

Since moving to Full Tilt 3 years ago, I have not gotten 1st place in a large Multi (181 or more players).  

I have, however, had 30 or so "close calls," meaning I made the top 1 or 2% of the field, but didn't get the big prize.  

After a while, that becomes frustrating, especially since I feel like one or two big breaks there would have possibly catapulted my career to where I wanted it to be.  

Out of 1600 people, finishing 15th place gets you $130, whereas 1st place is over $8000.  Getting too many of those 15th places is enough to discourage all but the most determined.  Maybe I just don't have what it takes to keep moving forward.


----------



## Max Power

shaundeeb


----------



## Fjones

After a long break I played again tonight and had my second best ROI day ever.  Perhaps this will lead to some big things.


----------



## Max Power

nguboi, have your friend coach you.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> Cmon guy? no one running goot?



Still running like 33 BI under EV. lol. 
Classes are pretty hectic so I don't have much time to play anymore. Good time to take a break. I want to re-read Moshman's SnG book before I start grinding again.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Sigh. Been bubbling constantly on Stars (mainly playing low-stakes tourneys or 180s). Constantly losing coinflips or getting sucked out on (e.g. get short-staked, shove with QJs or something, get called by J8 (!?!) and lose).

I finally get a perfect run of hands where the opposite happens, I win every coinflip, I get great cards, I suck out (A5s hits a flush to beat AA etc). I win the whole thing!  First out of 360.

But I'm playing a *$0.10* buy-in tourney. 

Maybe that's my level


----------



## AuberonSaw

Not sure whether it's been mentioned already (don't have the energy to cruise through 25 pages of strategy to try find it), but does anyone play with drugs to help them play? I'm thinking speed, meth, even coke?

I've played a bit with speed, and the difference was phenomenal. There was no tilt, which is usually a bit of a problem for me. Still, don't really want to _have_ to use it, so don't do it often.

Also, hilariously, I once played a $1 sit and go on lsd, just to see what it was like. My god, the euphoria of winning the most certain hands, let alone the coin tosses - incredible!


----------



## Fjones

AuberonSaw said:


> Not sure whether it's been mentioned already (don't have the energy to cruise through 25 pages of strategy to try find it), but does anyone play with drugs to help them play? I'm thinking speed, meth, even coke?
> 
> I've played a bit with speed, and the difference was phenomenal. There was no tilt, which is usually a bit of a problem for me. Still, don't really want to _have_ to use it, so don't do it often.
> 
> Also, hilariously, I once played a $1 sit and go on lsd, just to see what it was like. My god, the euphoria of winning the most certain hands, let alone the coin tosses - incredible!



I would not want to play on speed.  That would be terrible.  Bad beats would make me get violent and smash things. I certainly would not play for any significant stakes on lSD or ecstasy or anything like that.  

But, opiates and benzos help me immensely.


----------



## AuberonSaw

Just in the sense that there is more distance between you and the game? I can see how that would work. Mike Matasow, I once read, attributes a lot of his getting to his first WSOP final table to crystal meth. Said tells became ten a penny when concentrating like that.

And no, no high stakes on LSD, thank you very much!


----------



## alasdairm

my room mate came home super tired last night and started a 6-seat sit-n-go. 1500-chip stacks meant 9000 chips were in play.

i walked into the living room to see him asleep on the sofa with his laptop on the coffee table. i woke him up and told him he should go to bed. he asked me to finish the game for him.

he had *77* chips left. the two remaining players were about even at just over *4400* each - i was outchipped 115 to 1.

i won it 

alasdair


----------



## AuberonSaw

High five, alasdairm!


----------



## SHHMCJOOAPOYS

alasdairm said:


> my room mate came home super tired last night and started a 6-seat sit-n-go. 1500-chip stacks meant 9000 chips were in play.
> 
> i walked into the living room to see him asleep on the sofa with his laptop on the coffee table. i woke him up and told him he should go to bed. he asked me to finish the game for him.
> 
> he had *77* chips left. the two remaining players were about even at just over *4400* each - i was outchipped 115 to 1.
> 
> i won it
> 
> alasdair



Picture or gtfo


----------



## Max Power

alasdairm confirmed busto.


----------



## Fjones

Poker is so frustrating.  

After months of not breaking through in the large field multis, tonight I made it to a final table of an event with 3000+ people, and then a short time later, I made it to the final 3 tables of a 2200 person event.  

Both ended in disappointment, as usual.   First prize in each was over $10,000.  I ended up with $1000 total.  

And before anyone says, "Hey, shut up, $1,000 is still pretty good, keep in mind that the months of NOT making it that fat cost me around $1000.   

It's all about putting in the volume.


----------



## alasdairm

SHHMCJOOAPOYS said:


> Picture or gtfo





Max Power said:


> alasdairm confirmed busto.


why on earth would i make something like that up?



alasdair


----------



## Fjones

Finally things are going my way.  Thanks to a couple of "big" scores, I am +$3800 in the last two Weeks.  Not bad for 74 hours of work.  I managed to get in 452 games in those 72 hours, which pleases me.  With volume comes results.


----------



## Fjones

greenfalcon said:


> Also, what happened to the other 2 hours? in your post? did you not make any games?



oops.  Proofreading FAIL.    I am slipping!


----------



## Fjones

greenfalcon said:


> ^ I make more than that working, and I work 37.5 hours a week... that's 75 hours across 2 weeks ( I good mathz).
> 
> If that's as good as it gets I'll stick to regular life methinks. I mean that, and also I am notoriously crap at all forms of gambling



Many people make more than that.  But for someone without a diploma, this is pretty good. Also, I have no boss, i make my own hours, I work in my home with my music playing and my kitchen nearby, I don't have to interact with annoying coworkers, and I have no commute.  

Also, the potential for big scores is there. 

For example. a few nights ago I placed 8th out of 3000 players in a $26 tournament.  8th paid me $900.   1st was twelve THOUSAND.  And 2nd - 7th paid pretty well too.  

I took a tough loss to finish 8th.  It could have easily been a huge score, and my getting to that spot regularly, eventually some of them will be.   Crank out two of those per year, and there's an extra $20,000.


----------



## Fjones

greenfalcon said:


> Do you think you can train up to be good? Or if I am just a crap gambler, is it likely that elements of my crapness will always shine through. How much natural talent do you need? In your opinion of course



Natural talent is very important.  But any reasonably smart person can train up to be a very good player.   In poker, you need to be in the top 1/10th of the top 1% to make any real money.  And that isn't easy.


----------



## Bedhead

Finally got some free time and a break from classes/college life... on thanksgiving break. Haven't played in probably a good month, but gonna try and grind all this week. 

Played a few 1.20 SnGs last night just to warm up... feeling a bit rusty though, but in time I think I can get back to where I was. Good to see that things have turned around for you Fjones. Hopefully I can make a little bit of money this week too.


----------



## Vaej

nofxrhcp said:


> what is the best site to play on with real $ and not get screwed.



pokerstars or full tilt are def the best ones to play at with the biggest online community. i prefer pokerstars, and both of them are 100% safe


----------



## Fjones

Are you playing cash games !?  

I am carving up the SNGs on Full tilt.  $3800 or so this month in limited play.  It is nice to finally get my game in order.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Yeah, I play 8-10 25nl 6 max, and on bad days, I play 5 nl25 6 max fast table and 5 nl10 6 max fast table.
> 
> I am up to 33,000 hands in just a little over 2 weeks, and things suck.  If I could keep playing and NEVER get it all in pre flop I would be a big winner.  Instead I lose 80$ hands with AA and a 88$ hand today with AK  on a 10 J Q board agaisnt KK.  Things are really going bad, I did a total overhaul of my C-game watched a friend play 10K hands playing 3/6 and tried to play like that, just a tad be less aggro, and nothing seems to go right.
> 
> I would love to go back to the 180s, but I get home at like midnight from work now, so its a no go.
> 
> I feel like I am back to square 1.  I am playing the best poker of my life and varience is the only thing kicking my ass right now. It really, REALLY hurts, especially with all the volume and dedication I am putting in, i am just getting laughed at in my face for the most part.
> 
> GL on FTP, my friend is really moving over towards FTP to play the multi table SNGS and says those double stack 45 and 90 man MT sngs are a great Idea, do you play those jones?



That's almost all I play.  Tell him not to.  They are shark infested


----------



## NomNomNom

I don't know if you're close enough to one, but if you have the opportunity i would highly, HIGHLY recommend playing in a B&M casino instead of online.

I played 'professionally' (i.e. i didn't have another source of income) for a year by taking trips to the B&M a few times per week. You can sit in with $200, double up and bounce for the day within 2 hours (sometimes less than one dealer change). Online is for...well online is not as enjoyable or lucrative i'll say. IMHO 'poker' is not when you are running 10 tables and 4 programs telling you how to play your cards. Even if you have a chance just to play in a local home game (of decent stakes) i think you'll greatly prefer it, and at least enjoy breaking up the monotony.

Good Luck!


----------



## alasdairm

NomNomNom said:


> I don't know if you're close enough to one, but if you have the opportunity i would highly, HIGHLY recommend playing in a B&M casino instead of online.


i could not agree more. however, this thread is specifically about online poker.

i will say that i prefer casino play and it has helped my online game. the reverse is also true.

alasdair


----------



## Fjones

NomNomNom said:


> I don't know if you're close enough to one, but if you have the opportunity i would highly, HIGHLY recommend playing in a B&M casino instead of online.
> 
> I played 'professionally' (i.e. i didn't have another source of income) for a year by taking trips to the B&M a few times per week. You can sit in with $200, double up and bounce for the day within 2 hours (sometimes less than one dealer change). Online is for...well online is not as enjoyable or lucrative i'll say. IMHO 'poker' is not when you are running 10 tables and 4 programs telling you how to play your cards. Even if you have a chance just to play in a local home game (of decent stakes) i think you'll greatly prefer it, and at least enjoy breaking up the monotony.
> 
> Good Luck!



SURE!  This is a good plan.  I recommend everyone try it, because it really is that simple.  You'll never go card dead, get coolered, or otherwise lose a buy in or two.  Just show up, sit for 2 hours (which amounts to around 50 hands or so), and you'll double up!  

/ sarcasm


----------



## Fjones

NomNomNom said:


> I don't know if you're close enough to one, but if you have the opportunity i would highly, HIGHLY recommend playing in a B&M casino instead of online.
> 
> I played 'professionally' (i.e. i didn't have another source of income) for a year by taking trips to the B&M a few times per week. You can sit in with $200, double up and bounce for the day within 2 hours (sometimes less than one dealer change). Online is for...well online is not as enjoyable or lucrative i'll say. IMHO 'poker' is not when you are running 10 tables and 4 programs telling you how to play your cards. Even if you have a chance just to play in a local home game (of decent stakes) i think you'll greatly prefer it, and at least enjoy breaking up the monotony.
> 
> Good Luck!



Also, I don't run any programs telling me how to play my cards.


----------



## Fjones

*Wow !!!*

So, I am mired in a miserable slump, having cashed once in 35 games, losing every hand, ace on every flop, no C-bets work, push PP into better PP, people make one card straights an flushes, I cannot make a hand, etc. etc. etc.  

And then.....  In my final game of the session, this happens:  My M is down to TWO (!??) after losing a rough hand to a one card straight.  At the table is a Red Pro.  At the other table (There were 11 left at 2 tables; 90 people started) is one of the top online sng players with a big stack.  270,000 chips are in play.

$48 + $4 KO Sit  600/1200 Ante 150 - No Limit Hold'em 

Seat 2: UTG + 1 (13,715)
Seat 3: UTG + 2 (44,683)
Seat 4: Button (Red Pro) (14,026)
Seat 5: Small Blind (13,981)
Seat 7: Big Blind (10,022)
Seat 9: FJones (5,400)

All ante 150
Small Blind posts the small blind of 600
Big Blind posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #4

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FJones [Qs 8h]
FJones raises to 5,250, and is all in
UTG + 1 folds
UTG + 2 folds
Button (Red Pro) has 15 seconds left to act
Button (Red Pro) raises to 13,876, and is all in
Small Blind folds
Big Blind folds
Button (Red Pro) shows [Ad Jc]
FJones shows [Qs 8h]
Uncalled bet of 8,626 returned to Button (Red Pro)

*** FLOP *** [Qh 7h 6c]
*** TURN *** [Qh 7h 6c] [Jd]
*** RIVER *** [Qh 7h 6c Jd] [4h]
Button (Red Pro) shows a pair of Jacks
FJones shows a pair of Queens
FJones wins the pot (13,200) with a pair of Queens


I go on to make the final 6.  I have yet to make a single KO.  I am short stacked.  

I then proceed to take out 4 of the remaining 5 players, including the red pro ($48 bounty), giving me $88 in bounties and $1100 for the win, for a nifty profit of $1188 for the tournament!  

This should solidify me as a 99 percentile player on OPR for the 3rd straight year.


----------



## uTranceMe

Hey guys nice thread, very informative. I play a bit on full tilt and partypoker. Not to the extent you guys play, more just for fun. Have a quetion about people that multi - table. If you are playing up to 16 tables at a time would it be a fair assumption to say that all your playing is your hole cards and your position ? I dont see how strategy, tells etc could come into play when playing so many tables at once.

See you at the tables sometime. My nick is rookieinoz75.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> FUCK POKER



Home from college on winter break, started grinding again, and I must say I've just been getting boned at the worst possible moments over the last couple days.


----------



## Fjones

I will respomd to tjhis stuff tomorrow.  I asm seeingdoble,.  Jappy holidauys!


----------



## Bedhead

This is basically how my SnGs have been ending. Great spot to double up, CL and in good shape to place 1st, and then my hopes and dreams are crushed. Villains were spewy. Ranges pretty wide. Bend me over more plz. 

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (3 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t7568 )
Hero (BB) (t3270)
Button (t2662)

*Hero's M*: 10.90

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with K
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Button bets t600, SB raises t7468 (All-In), Hero calls t3070 (All-In), _1 fold_

*Flop*: (t7140) 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*Turn*: (t7140) J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*River*: (t7140) 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*Total pot:* t7140

Results:
SB had J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (three of a kind, Jacks).
Hero had K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, Aces).
Outcome: SB won t7140

Not meaning to complain about beats, it's just tough when it happens again and again.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> This is basically how my SnGs have been ending. Great spot to double up, CL and in good shape to place 1st, and then my hopes and dreams are crushed. Villains were spewy. Ranges pretty wide. Bend me over more plz.
> 
> No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (3 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> SB (t7568 )
> Hero (BB) (t3270)
> Button (t2662)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 10.90
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is BB with K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Button bets t600, SB raises t7468 (All-In), Hero calls t3070 (All-In), _1 fold_
> 
> *Flop*: (t7140) 8
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 2 all-in)
> 
> *Turn*: (t7140) J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 2 all-in)
> 
> *River*: (t7140) 10
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (2 players, 2 all-in)
> 
> *Total pot:* t7140
> 
> Results:
> SB had J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (three of a kind, Jacks).
> Hero had K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , A
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (one pair, Aces).
> Outcome: SB won t7140
> 
> Not meaning to complain about beats, it's just tough when it happens again and again.



Well.... you are going to lose AKs to JJ 53% of the time.....   Don't sweat it.


----------



## uTranceMe

Just some random hands


#Game No : 8745625508 
***** Hand History for Game 8745625508 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $9 USD Buy-in Trny: 49231225 Level: 1  Blinds(20/40) - Sunday, December 27, 14:16:05 EST 2009
Table $6K Gtd (1819685) Table #43 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9 
Seat 2: DG2186 ( 2,520 )
Seat 1: Deemee60 ( 3,160 )
Seat 9: Eraser3232 ( 3,340 )
Seat 6: Jannis07 ( 2,325 )
Seat 7: Kingclancy5 ( 2,900 )
Seat 3: RoyalStef ( 2,960 )
Seat 5: ozzie1902 ( 3,400 )
Seat 8: rookieinoz75 ( 2,940 )
Seat 4: shug5 ( 3,455 )
Trny: 49231225 Level: 1 
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to rookieinoz75 [  Ah Ad ]
RoyalStef folds
shug5 folds
ozzie1902 raises [200]
Jannis07 folds
Kingclancy5 folds
rookieinoz75 raises [360]
Eraser3232 folds
Deemee60 folds
DG2186 folds
ozzie1902 calls [160]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 7h, Qc ]
ozzie1902 bets [240]
rookieinoz75 calls [240]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
ozzie1902 bets [520]
rookieinoz75 calls [520]
** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]
ozzie1902 is all-In  [2,280]
rookieinoz75 is all-In  [1,820]
ozzie1902 shows [ Kh, Qh ]a pair of Queens.
rookieinoz75 shows [ Ah, Ad ]a pair of Aces.
ozzie1902 wins 460 chips from the side pot 1 with a pair of Queens.
rookieinoz75 wins 5,940 chips from the main pot with a pair of Aces.
 Game #8745631378 starts

#Game No : 8745660626 
***** Hand History for Game 8745660626 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $9 USD Buy-in Trny: 49231225 Level: 2  Blinds(30/60) - Sunday, December 27, 14:26:51 EST 2009
Table $6K Gtd (1819685) Table #56 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10 
Seat 2: BlackFever7 ( 2,820 )
Seat 4: SandyD1222 ( 2,975 )
Seat 6: THWEBER ( 1,970 )
Seat 10: b1gface ( 2,740 )
Seat 8: cesidi ( 1,200 )
Seat 7: lefacu ( 8,000 )
Seat 1: michom15 ( 5,380 )
Seat 9: pacman2467 ( 3,580 )
Seat 5: pups2010 ( 6,355 )
Seat 3: rookieinoz75 ( 4,740 )
Trny: 49231225 Level: 2 
Blinds(30/60)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to rookieinoz75 [  Ac Jd ]
rookieinoz75 calls [60]
SandyD1222 calls [60]
pups2010 folds
THWEBER folds
lefacu folds
cesidi calls [60]
pacman2467 folds
b1gface calls [60]
michom15 calls [30]
BlackFever7 checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, Td, 5h ]
michom15 checks
BlackFever7 checks
rookieinoz75 bets [180]
SandyD1222 calls [180]
cesidi folds
b1gface folds
michom15 folds
BlackFever7 folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9h ]
Your time bank will be activated in 6 secs. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
rookieinoz75 checks
SandyD1222 bets [300]
rookieinoz75 calls [300]
** Dealing River ** [ 4d ]
rookieinoz75 checks
SandyD1222 checks
rookieinoz75 shows [ Ac, Jd ]a pair of Aces.
SandyD1222 shows [ 4s, As ]two pairs, Aces and Fours.
SandyD1222 wins 1,320 chips from the main pot with two pairs, Aces and Fours.
 Game #8745666102 starts.

#Game No : 8745696762 
***** Hand History for Game 8745696762 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $9 USD Buy-in Trny: 49231225 Level: 3  Blinds(50/100) - Sunday, December 27, 14:37:56 EST 2009
Table $6K Gtd (1819685) Table #56 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10 
Seat 2: BlackFever7 ( 4,836 )
Seat 4: SandyD1222 ( 4,185 )
Seat 6: THWEBER ( 1,185 )
Seat 10: b1gface ( 2,430 )
Seat 8: cesidi ( 670 )
Seat 7: lefacu ( 8,180 )
Seat 1: michom15 ( 5,320 )
Seat 9: pacman2467 ( 3,280 )
Seat 5: pups2010 ( 5,564 )
Seat 3: rookieinoz75 ( 4,110 )
Trny: 49231225 Level: 3 
Blinds(50/100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to rookieinoz75 [  Ac Jc ]
michom15 folds
BlackFever7 folds
rookieinoz75 raises [400]
SandyD1222 raises [700]
pups2010 folds
THWEBER folds
lefacu calls [700]
cesidi folds
pacman2467 folds
b1gface folds
rookieinoz75 calls [300]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3d, Kh, Qc ]
rookieinoz75 is all-In  [3,410]
SandyD1222 folds
lefacu calls [3,410]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9h ]
rookieinoz75 shows [ Ac, Jc ]high card Ace.
lefacu shows [ Ts, Qs ]a pair of Queens.
lefacu wins 9,070 chips from the main pot with a pair of Queens.
Player rookieinoz75 finished in 606.


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> The hand played like this.   I had been pretty aggro, actually 3 betting quite a few people preflop, when a hand happened agaisnt the other aggro person at the table.
> dude raised UTG +2 and I re-raised with about 190,000$ chips with Jh9h, to like 2.8x his bet to 28,888.  He called.
> 
> The flop was Js 7h 2h.  He lead out small, min bet of 4K plus 2 so 6K and i re raised to 33333, he called.  Turn was the 3 of Hearts, and he opened shoved to put me all in and I snapp called.  That pos showed Ah9d  and fucking spiked the heart on the river  .  Got paid next to nothing, but first was 3,200 and I felt like it was the best I had played in an online tourny in months.



Man, that really sucks. Maybe he was warranted in calling a 3-bet w/ A9o because you had been actively 3-betting people, but I don't like his play. To put myself in his shoes, I mean, your OOP w/ ace/rag. Even if you hit an ace you could be easily dominated. And what do you do if you miss the flop? C-bet (like he did), but what if villain floats? What do you do on the turn? I guess jamming when the 3rd heart fell wasn't a bad play, but if it doesn't come do you just check/fold?

Seems to me it would've been easier for the guy to just fold to the 3-bet - to avoid getting into a pickle. Maybe he got fed up with your aggressiveness or had a good read on your 3-bet range?


----------



## uTranceMe

That was on PartyPoker. Been playing about 18months. Biggest win was 2nd in a $120 $25000 gauratee k.o tournament on full tilt for $5100, I think it was a fluke though because haven't had much luck since. Like to play tournaments the same reason everyone does I guess, small but in potentially big reward but also dont mind some sng's.


----------



## uTranceMe

Heading down to Crown Casino to watch some Aussie Millions satellites. Theres a $65 satellite on at 4o'clock today that was thinking of entering, dont like my chances but might be fun anyway. Have done most of my playing on - line so might be a chance to get some 'live' experience.


----------



## Bedhead

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) (t2035)
BB (t2860)
UTG (t2240)
MP (t4095)
Button (t2270)

*Hero's M*: 6.78

*Preflop*: Hero is SB with A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



UTG bets t600, _2 folds_, Hero raises t1935 (All-In), BB calls t1835, _1 fold_

Am I shoving too wide here? What do you guys think? No reads really...


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> Hero (SB) (t2035)
> BB (t2860)
> UTG (t2240)
> MP (t4095)
> Button (t2270)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 6.78
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is SB with A
> 
> 
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> 
> UTG bets t600, _2 folds_, Hero raises t1935 (All-In), BB calls t1835, _1 fold_
> 
> Am I shoving too wide here? What do you guys think? No reads really...



This is not a good shove.  What are you ahread of?   His range has you crushed.  Just fold and waitfor a better spot.  You have almost no fold equity.  I would say utg is calling close to 100% of the time, and heh as you crushed most of those times.


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## uTranceMe

Man Ive read a lot of this thread... Just do what they do...


:0


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## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Uhhhh..soo.. My other friend (THE REALLY GOOD ONE) went out of town for a month to Argentina and just got back.  He just started playing again this weekend from vacation.  He won a 109$ tourny for 36,580$ today.  Please, poker gods, anyone, anything let me run as good as my friends have this year?
> 
> In other news.  My friend that has a full sharkscope account looked up my profile and it said that I profited 1898$ playing sngs last year.  I made about 2000 playing 2$ 180s, and won that 3$ rebuy 180 for 590.  I lost alot playing bigger 180s and at one point during last year I played 10 6 max sngs for about 2 months and DONS for about 3 months.
> 
> So, for this year, I am going to stick with the 180s, as that was my main money maker last year. !



Your friends consistently make it very deep and get top 3 finishes.  There are very subtle things they do better than I do, which is why I am a grinder making $25 or $30 an hour, whereas they make serious bank.  It is very difficult to figure out exactly what I am doing wrong. I recommend putting in some serious study time with those guys and watch them play entire tournaments.


----------



## Phy

Hi, happy to see a nice poker thread down here.

I'm playing STT 5-max on IPN and MTT SH < $10 on PokerStars.

Cheers.


----------



## Cevain

I've been reading this topic for a while, it's quite amusing . Poker is such a fascinating game.
Unfortunately I'm not really a gifted player. Been playing some sng's on FT with a free 50$ bankroll. Grinding it up till 220$, went back down to 130, tilted a little, played a 50$ sng, won it (lol my biggest win ever, the rush was really amazing :D). Lost alot of it again, now stuck somewhere around 300 for eternity.

I bought the harringtons on holdem for stt a while back. I think that improved my game somewhat...But all in all I'm not really a winning player. Not anything to get excited about anyway. I can keep playing poker without going broke but thats about it .. 
I keep having swing up and down around the same amount of money (well at least I have a hobby thats costless )

But anyway I'm going to try and change that; I'm thinking of an account at deucescracked or bluefirepoker to try and improve my game. I heard some of those pokertraining sites really increase your skills ALOT. I hope so cause I'm paying for it... Any of you guys got experience with sites like that?


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Eh, poker is easy sometimes
> 
> PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.2 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> CO (t1500)
> Button (t1440)
> Hero (SB) (t1480)
> BB (t1500)
> UTG (t1500)
> UTG+1 (t1500)
> MP1 (t1500)
> MP2 (t1580)
> MP3 (t1500)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 49.33
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is SB with A
> 
> 
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> , A
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> 
> UTG calls t20, _2 folds_, MP2 calls t20, MP3 bets t60, CO calls t60, _1 fold_, Hero raises to t200, _4 folds_, CO calls t140
> 
> *Flop*: (t520) 7
> 
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> Hero bets t375, CO calls t375
> 
> *Turn*: (t1270) A
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> Hero bets t300, CO calls t300
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> *River*: (t1870) A
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> (2 players)
> Hero bets t605 (All-In), CO calls t605
> 
> *Total pot:* t3080
> 
> Hmm, it cut off the ending. he had 77



get out of here... did this really happen !?


----------



## Fjones

crazy stuff.  You're joking about check folding the flop of course, right?


----------



## Cevain

Fjones said:


> crazy stuff.  You're joking about check folding the flop of course, right?



I was wondering the same thing...


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## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> crazy stuff.  You're joking about check folding the flop of course, right?



Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. 
I don't he (or me, or anyone) is ever folding on that board either.

And man.. fuck poker. 35 STT and break even. I don't know how people grind 24/7.


----------



## alasdairm

i have officially given up on online poker. i just got done with about a two week period that was so full of seeing miserable, miserable beats and absolutely terrible play rewarded time after time after time i just have to stop for a while.

luckily, i live near a casino where i have taken 2nd once and won twice a small, weekly $40 tourney for a total of about $700 in about two weeks. i have decided to focus on live play.

alasdair


----------



## Bedhead

What do you guys make of this call? Villain's stats were something spewy like 36/19. He seemed to be an idiot, not very competent. A few hands before when I had around 10 BBs I kept shoving over his mini raises when he was in the SB and I was in the BB with any reasonable hand, and he folded every time. He called an all-in previous to this hand w/ J9o, sucked out and won, so I figured AKs was better than his range here. I hadn't seen him shove over anybody like this before so in the back of my mind I was thinking KK+, but figured he would only have that a minority of the time.

But, is it worth it to fold here and not risk my whole stack. Or risk my whole stack given his reads? 

No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t3440)
BB (t2985)
Hero (UTG) (t3835)
MP (t600)
Button (t2640)

*Hero's M*: 12.78

*Preflop*: Hero is UTG with K
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero bets t500, _3 folds_, BB raises t2600, Hero raises t3335 (All-In), BB calls t185 (All-In)


----------



## Bedhead

nguboi said:


> Yeah, you gotta shove it.  Its nearly impossible to ever put someone on AA or KK exactly, and its a turbo tourny, get it in with AKss as much as you can and as fast as you can.  I cannot fold AKsuited in a short handed turbo sng.... ever. never. never ever, cause people will make that same play with less, like KQ AQ 99 etc etc not necessiarly AA or KK



Really? Not even early on? I know you play 180s, etc but in a STT 9 handed I tend to fold AK if I'm 3/4-bet all-in when the blind levels are below 25/50. A majority of the time (unless the kid is a real spaz) it's a PP. You might double your stack, but IIRC, you're equity doesn't necessarily increase that much. (Obviously its different short handed though).


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> What do you guys make of this call? Villain's stats were something spewy like 36/19. He seemed to be an idiot, not very competent. A few hands before when I had around 10 BBs I kept shoving over his mini raises when he was in the SB and I was in the BB with any reasonable hand, and he folded every time. He called an all-in previous to this hand w/ J9o, sucked out and won, so I figured AKs was better than his range here. I hadn't seen him shove over anybody like this before so in the back of my mind I was thinking KK+, but figured he would only have that a minority of the time.
> 
> But, is it worth it to fold here and not risk my whole stack. Or risk my whole stack given his reads?
> 
> No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
> 
> SB (t3440)
> BB (t2985)
> Hero (UTG) (t3835)
> MP (t600)
> Button (t2640)
> 
> *Hero's M*: 12.78
> 
> *Preflop*: Hero is UTG with K
> 
> 
> 
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> Hero bets t500, _3 folds_, BB raises t2600, Hero raises t3335 (All-In), BB calls t185 (All-In)



ehhhhh.

????

You just noted that this guy was spewey, had stats of 36/19, and had called an all in with J9o.  

But now you are not sure if you want to risk your whole stack against him, because you think he might have KK+ !?  

Folding AKs 5 handed to a single opponent in a turbo STT is absurd.  I don't acre WHAT his stats are.  

AS for nguboi's response, I think he was intentionally being a tiny bit over-dramatic solely to emphasize his point that if you are even thinking of folding here, your overall thought process is highly flawed.

I mean, what is this nonsense about "risking your whole stack?"  If you don't want to risk your "whole" stack, don't play poker.  Unless you play heads up SNGs, you are going to lose your whole stack more often than not, which means at some point, you are going to be risking your "whole stack." 

The only thing you should be about is, "Is this  a positive EV play," not worrying about how much of your stack you are comfortable risking.  

Also, you had just been bullying this guy.  He is likely to return the favor with anything resembling a hand.   You are playing scared.  There is just no reason to suddenly be worried that a spewey incompetent player suddenly has a range of KK+.   For that matter, don't ever put ANYONE on a range of KK+.  No offense, but you are playing small stakes sngs yet you're tryign to think like Phil Hellmuth at the WSOP.


----------



## Fjones

Wow.  that guy put in a sizable number of chips FOUR different times before it even got past the flop.... and he had 9 high the entire time.  In one of the largest buy in events there is.  

So, yeah, Bedhead, enough with this "Is AKs good enough to risk my entire stack" stuff.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> So, yeah, Bedhead, enough with this "Is AKs good enough to risk my entire stack" stuff.



LOL. I appreciate the replies guys. But ya, enough talk, I got the message loud and clear.  

Always nice to watch the Sunday million FT on pokerstars.tv... Some weeks have some pretty impressive hands going on.


----------



## ostrich

Hey guys I was wondering if anyone wanted to do me a favour / make a buck off me if they really want.

I've been offered a free entry to FTP's little big tournament. I have to pay for the tournament and they will pay me back within 24 hours (i think it's to get me to play FT again). i don't really want to play FT again, but i wouldn't mind a freeroll.

IF someone wants to swap i'll give you $12 on stars for $11 on FTP, and then after jan 25th i'll give back $11 on FTP and you can give back $11 on stars, YIPPEEE free $1, that's 4 entries to the rake less 25 cent 45 or 90 man they have on stars!  

balling on a super micro BR %).

For anyone who thinks i'm trying to scam them - i will do the trades first so there is absolutely 0 risk on your behalf.


----------



## Fjones

ostrich said:


> Hey guys I was wondering if anyone wanted to do me a favour / make a buck off me if they really want.
> 
> I've been offered a free entry to FTP's little big tournament. I have to pay for the tournament and they will pay me back within 24 hours (i think it's to get me to play FT again). i don't really want to play FT again, but i wouldn't mind a freeroll.
> 
> IF someone wants to swap i'll give you $12 on stars for $11 on FTP, and then after jan 25th i'll give back $11 on FTP and you can give back $11 on stars, YIPPEEE free $1, that's 4 entries to the rake less 25 cent 45 or 90 man they have on stars!
> 
> balling on a super micro BR %).
> 
> For anyone who thinks i'm trying to scam them - i will do the trades first so there is absolutely 0 risk on your behalf.



As odd as it sounds, I believe this is 100% legit.  A friend of mine asked me to send him $11 for this same purpose, and when he explained that he was getting a free entry and would eb sending the $11 back at some point, I Was confused, I thought "What the !?  why does he need the $11 then?"  But he is a trusted friend so I just sent him the $11 (I would send him $11 for any reason, so I didn't care about the specifics).  But ti sounds like he had the same deal you have.  

However, I cannot assist you in this matter, for the same reason I have avoided participating in any poker games online with members of Bluelight - I do not wish to create any link between my BL self and my actual self.  

If anyone else is less concerned about this than I am, perhaps they will assist, because  as you noted, there is no risk since you will send first, and also, this seems to be a promotion that Full Tilt is offering.


----------



## Bill

Grinded up 450 in 4 nights off of a 30 dollar deposit just playing .10/.25cent pot limit omaha

*withdrawal*

Feels Good Man


----------



## Fjones

I fail spectacularly any time I play omaha.  I have no cashes in 24 or 25 tournaments.  

Omaha hi lo, on the other hand....  I kill that game.  Well, I win at a good clip.  

I just find omaha very boring unless it is hi lo.


----------



## Bill

You're the first poker player I've ever heard say that PLO is boring but that's just your opinion. It's the sickest, most action filled game in all of poker IMO. I like pot limit omaha hi/lo but can't stand limit anything.


----------



## ostrich

no takers for the tradsies? 

I don't want to deposit in FTP because last time i did there seemed to be a pretty big disparity between the exchange rate from $AUD to $USD from what it should have been (compared to stars and exchange rates at the time). Some of this could have been because stars lets me deposit in AUD so I don't have to pay an extra 1.5% currency conversion, but I think there was more to it than that.

Also I'm a fuckin' bum and would rather not piss away more money.

any help anyone?

EDIT: I got a trade from 2p2... wish me luck in the big little tourney tonight.


----------



## Fjones

What are they doing that we are not !??  I just don't know how to break through to the next level.


----------



## Fjones

That... is... insanity.  Holy shit.


----------



## Bill

I tried the rush poker last night, 25/50cent holdem.

Won 3 buy ins

:]


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> LOL 4 table the rush game is O_O!!!!  I cant imagine playing 4 tables or 100nl rush .. or more.  sheeesh!  How can you ever get  read on your opponents?  Ptracker doesnt know what to do when you switch tables lololol.



So, I played this madness, 4 tables, for 56 minutes, and I played 1005 hands !??

I played  25.4 / 20.7 / 5.04  with a Cbet% of 91.9.  

And I dropped 6 buy-ins.  

I HATE CASH GAMES.  

Obviously I was playing too loose aggressive.


----------



## Bill

Fjones said:


> Obviously I was playing too loose aggressive.



Usually this is the key to running way ahead +ev

Must have just been a bad run though


----------



## Fjones

Bill said:


> Usually this is the key to running way ahead +ev
> 
> Must have just been a bad run though



Almost every big hand was a loss.  

JJ into KK

QQ into KK

99 into KK  (he raised from late, I re-raised, he shoved, I called).  This one was iffy, but the other two-0, I mean, am I wrong to be getting all in pre flop with JJ and QQ?   I play tournaments, so I am looking to do exactly that, but in a cash game, maybe I was overplaying my hands; chasing the weak ones and running into the big ones?  

What amazed (and bored) me was that in those 1005 hands, there were maybe 8 hands that were played for my stack.  BOOOORING.   bring on the tournaments please.


----------



## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Fjones, I am running so below EV than I ever have.  I got staked a G on FTP and things reeally fucked up.  Am I doing something wrong?  People are so willing to stick their stack in with shit in these 90 mans and I can't win shit.  Look at my damn scope.  This is depressing.  Might as well move back to Pstars where I can beat the 180s?



The games on poker stars are tougher.  You just aren't familiar with the style yet.  

Send me some HH and I'll take a look.  Send me a bunch of your bust hands.  

Don't worry about converting, I don't care about that shit.


----------



## Bill

FTP = cash games
Pstars = tourneys

Also this gem :]


----------



## Fjones

FINALLY I had a good day.  Not just a good day, but a historically good day.  This is almost certainly in my top ten best days ever at the 45 man SNGs.


----------



## Bill

nguboi said:


> I wish I could just finish sometimes.



IMO this is def the hardest part of the tourney.


----------



## alasdairm

nguboi, based on what you've posted here, your friend seems to be extremely successful. can you analyse why he's doing so well and apply any of it to your own success & failure, or even just in very general terms?

alasdair


----------



## Fjones

If only it were that easy.  The players who crush the MTT tournaments have a special skill set that enables them to consistently be among the top 2 or 3 % of the top 1%.   They know when to push and when not to push; they know their opponents' calling ranges and pushing ranges; they are always aware of their image as perceived by the rest of the table, and they know when to switch gears.  

They know how to minimize loss and maximize gain; and they know how to do this on each of dozens of different textured flops by spotting and understanding small differences that others might not even notice.  

They play against an opopnents' range of hands, and as each street progresses, they rule out parts of the range until they have a fairly precise idea of what the opponent holds.  This enables them to make tough folds when other people would just stack off and say "Oh well, cooler," and it enables them to make thin value bets on the river when other people would just timidly check behind.  

And I am sure there are 5 or 6 other things I am not even mentioning here.  

Because of the nature of the game of poker, lots of people think they can excel and reach the top ranks even though they probably never will.   Just like an any game or sport where results are a direct result of one's own performance, most people aren't going to succeed no matter how hard they work or how hard they try.


----------



## alasdairm

nguboi said:


> I sit behind him and watch them all day long, but going out and applying it just like that, it just doesn't work that way.


i understand that.

thanks for the reply.

alasdair


----------



## ostrich

how did he go?


----------



## Fjones

I finally started using an auto-import HUD for VPIP and PFR (DUH!  Why did I play 9000 games WITHOUT this!??????????)   And now I am doing well again


----------



## basix

they have super turbos sngs on full tilt now?


----------



## cj

Hello, I have a question that may have been answered in the 28 other pages but I dont have time to look right now. I live in the US unfortunatly can I play online? I know there was some law passed making it harder to do? If someone could fill me in on whats up with that I would greatly appreciate it.


----------



## Bill

Yea man, I live in the US and play on pokerstars and full tilt regularly. Both sites function over seas and that is the loop hole I'm guessing but not exactly sure.

Edit: by the way I've been running like absolute shit lately online, can't hit any draws every set or big pair gets sucked out on, sometimes it's so frustrating.


----------



## Bill

^fuck me that's sick


----------



## cj

Thanks for the help guys I set up my poker stars account and promptly lost my ass in about an hour. I am now reading through this thread and im gonna pick up a book at barnes and noble. Are there any particular books or guides you guys recommend? This is looking like it may be an expensive hobby but I have had quite a few of those in my day lol.


----------



## johanneschimpo

^Perhaps play at a lower limit/buy-in?


----------



## cj

yea i was playing the cash game section. I wanna do sng but I cant figure out what it means when it says buy in 3.00-.40? is that like 3 dollar buyin then .40cent rebuys? Also how do you know what a sit and go pays if you win? I wanna do a one table sng with a 1-3 dollar buy in how much would that pay to win? m

I know i am a total fish but yyour help would be appreciated.


----------



## Fjones

crimsonjunk said:


> Thanks for the help guys I set up my poker stars account and promptly lost my ass in about an hour. I am now reading through this thread and im gonna pick up a book at barnes and noble. Are there any particular books or guides you guys recommend? This is looking like it may be an expensive hobby but I have had quite a few of those in my day lol.



Harrington's books are very good.


----------



## Fjones

crimsonjunk said:


> yea i was playing the cash game section. I wanna do sng but I cant figure out what it means when it says buy in 3.00-.40? is that like 3 dollar buyin then .40cent rebuys? Also how do you know what a sit and go pays if you win? I wanna do a one table sng with a 1-3 dollar buy in how much would that pay to win? m
> 
> I know i am a total fish but yyour help would be appreciated.



The second number is the rake.  

If the tournament is $10 + $1 then $10 goes into the prize pool and $1 goes to the online casino as their fee.  

The payouts should be listed in the tournament lobby.  For a Single table tournament, the prizes are usually 50 30 20  (as a percentage of the total prize pool), so in a 9 person STT for $10 there would be $90 in the prize pool and it would be $45  $27  $18 for 1st 2nd and 3rd respectively.


----------



## cj

Thank you. Also this is a great thread I just read all 30 pages I feel like I have learned a lil I am gonna pick that book up tommorow. thanks again

Shit I learned so much that I won a 1 dollar sng then got 3rd in the next one on fulltilt. Some of those people are really shit at poker. Like I suck but they make me look good.


----------



## Bill

^lol way to go dude, you're on your way


----------



## vertigo8

For Tournament Strategy check out these books:  
Kill Phil and its sequel Kill  Everyone
Winning Poker Tournaments One Hand At A Time Volume 1 and 2
Every Hand Revealed (by Gus Hansen)

For Cash Games:
Harrington on Cash Games
Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em (by Lee Jones)


----------



## Fjones

I am doomswitched.  Someone please get the site to turn my doomswitch back off.


----------



## Bedhead

Fjones said:


> I am doomswitched.  Someone please get the site to turn my doomswitch back off.



Email support... and ask them to turn your boom switch on


----------



## cj

I am staying around even. I guess my highlight was a 16th out of 300 in a guaranteed tourney on full tilt. I was 2nd in chips made a poor play and then fucking tilted out in 3 hands


----------



## Bill

I've been playing play chips for fun since I had been running so bad. Made 11 million in 2 days at 1/2k.

lol wish I could do that with real money


----------



## Fjones

I am fascinated by the statistics I am putting up.  

I am not going to bore anyone with the actual numbers, but I am reasonably certain that among players with the sample size I have put up, I am probably among the bottom 3% in terms of luck.  

This is based on checking actual statistical results in HEM, not just making some shit up or based on my "feeling" of How I run.


----------



## cj

Well I am improving I think? Ive been playing the 2 dollar 180 sng at fulltilt. I consistently finish like 30 which pisses me off to no end. Ill be rolling in the top 10 in chips then get beat in a killer hand like 3 of a kind vs full house was the last one. Anyway I need to work on the range of hands i play I think. can one of you experienced folks comment on what  kind of cards I should be raising with preflop vs calling vs folding.


----------



## uTranceMe

Full Tilt Poker Game #19610287685: $10 + $1 Knockout (149584108), Table 124 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:16:03 ET - 2010/03/27
Seat 1: ioeniko (2,715)
Seat 2: baciatero 42 (6,130)
Seat 3: rookieinoz75 (11,255)
Seat 4: Lalabrokes (2,670)
Seat 5: cm-leon-1 (8,120)
Seat 6: acidpdm (8,865)
Seat 7: suza20 (4,385)
Seat 8: ouranio tokso (4,290)
Seat 9: 12jgs77 (7,440)
cm-leon-1 posts the small blind of 30
acidpdm posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to rookieinoz75 [3d 9c]
suza20 calls 60
ouranio tokso has 15 seconds left to act
ouranio tokso raises to 120
12jgs77 calls 120
ioeniko folds
baciatero 42 folds
rookieinoz75 folds
Lalabrokes folds
cm-leon-1 has 15 seconds left to act
cm-leon-1 calls 90
acidpdm calls 60
suza20 calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Qh 4h Js]
cm-leon-1 has 15 seconds left to act
cm-leon-1 checks
acidpdm checks
suza20 checks
ouranio tokso bets 600
12jgs77 raises to 2,490
cm-leon-1 has 15 seconds left to act
cm-leon-1 folds
acidpdm folds
suza20 calls 2,490
ouranio tokso raises to 4,170, and is all in
12jgs77 calls 1,680
suza20 calls 1,680
*** TURN *** [Qh 4h Js] [5s]
suza20 checks
12jgs77 bets 60
suza20 calls 60
*** RIVER *** [Qh 4h Js 5s] [7c]
suza20 checks
12jgs77 bets 60
*suza20 folds*
Uncalled bet of 60 returned to 12jgs77
12jgs77 wins the side pot (120)
*** SHOW DOWN ***
12jgs77 shows [7d 4d] two pair, Sevens and Fours
ouranio tokso mucks
12jgs77 wins the main pot (13,110) with two pair, Sevens and Fours
rookieinoz75: lol
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 13,230 Main pot 13,110. Side pot 120. | Rake 0
Board: [Qh 4h Js 5s 7c]
Seat 1: ioeniko didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: baciatero 42 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: rookieinoz75 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Lalabrokes (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: cm-leon-1 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: acidpdm (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: suza20 folded on the River
Seat 8: ouranio tokso mucked [As Ah] - a pair of Aces
Seat 9: 12jgs77 showed [7d 4d] and won (13,230) with two pair, Sevens and Fours

Only thing I can think of is suza20 didn't want 12jgs77 to get the $2 bounty.


----------



## Mugz

There is a new poker forum that I know of that is looking for new members, It only has 1 + the admin at the moment.  Would be really good to get some good experienced players to come and join as members. Also looking for some moderators for the poker forums and some of the other forums.


----------



## Mugz

http://msgworld.darkbb.com/forum.htm 

That is the link to my new forum, hope to see some of the poker players here join and help build a community over at my new forum.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Haven't played in ages, just starting to get back into it. Took a run of bad beats but turned it around a bit today, got 4th in a 180 (only $2.20 though).

nguboi: what actually happened in the hand? That sounds sick.


----------



## Fjones

Man.  I am just stunned by recent events.  

Let me tell you, any of you who think you've had a bad run at some point?  

You really have no idea what kinds of mathematical outliers are possible.  

Poker is a depressing game.


----------



## Bill

lol has anyone heard about the state of Kentucky suing Full Tilt Poker among other various sites?

source


----------



## Fjones

Bill said:


> lol has anyone heard about the state of Kentucky suing Full Tilt Poker among other various sites?
> 
> source



Kick this stupid fucking state out of the union please.  In fact, can we just separate into two different countries?  All the backward redneck hick states who want to stay in the 18th century can do so, and the rest can move forward and try realistic approaches to policy.


----------



## Mugz

My forum has a poker league competition starting in may. The game will be on Full Tilt Poker

There is a $300 prize pool for the final league positions plus the normal tournament pay outs.

Freerolls every fortnight too

Here is the thread about it


----------



## Phy

Running awesome : http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5569/gogod.jpg


----------



## Bedhead

Hows everyone doing? No one's posted here in a while. Since I've finished classes, I started playing poker again on a regular basis. But it's so fucking frustrating. I don't put in that much volume and the bad beats just suck that much more. It's literally fucking ridiculous. I don't understand how you're supposed to win.


----------



## Fjones

Bedhead said:


> Hows everyone doing? No one's posted here in a while. Since I've finished classes, I started playing poker again on a regular basis. But it's so fucking frustrating. I don't put in that much volume and the bad beats just suck that much more. It's literally fucking ridiculous. I don't understand how you're supposed to win.



Volume.  Bad beats happen to everyone.  In the long run you will win if you consistently put yourself in good spots.  You can't always rely on winning all ins even if you are ahead.  You need to pick up chips without showdowns.  If you are not putting in volume, you can't expect conssitent results.  

I have been dabbling online again and getting some decent small scores.  I also had a good score in a live MTT tournament.


----------



## muntedmunter

Been on a sikly long break even stretch... caught up from my 1k dswing in sngs, nearly lol... shipped a donkamont for 2k

now just grinding the 20hu sngs and building up roll again, on stars.


----------



## BaltimoreBOMB

what are your thought on BODOG.com

www.bodog.com


----------



## BaltimoreBOMB

bump this. Im about to drop a stack on a buy in.  what are you thinking of bodog????

rank the top 5 sites to play holdem. I also play blackjack too.


----------



## jeah

I am about breakeve maybe down 100 after rakeback.  I am up 200 in sng's and down 400 in cash games.  pretty much a habit of mine to take my winnings and go sit at 10 or 25nl.

anyone else play a lot of poker online?  I have not read anything but am going to go pick up harringon on cash games tomorrow.  SNG's are just kinda boring to me.  oh yea, 1000 game sample on SNG an about 15-20K hands at cash


----------



## Fjones

jeah said:


> I am about breakeve maybe down 100 after rakeback.  I am up 200 in sng's and down 400 in cash games.  pretty much a habit of mine to take my winnings and go sit at 10 or 25nl.
> 
> anyone else play a lot of poker online?  I have not read anything but am going to go pick up harringon on cash games tomorrow.  SNG's are just kinda boring to me.  oh yea, 1000 game sample on SNG an about 15-20K hands at cash



These samples are too small to mean much.  Just play with proper bankroll management and track your stats using a database such as hold'em Manager to make sure you don't have leaks.


----------



## Bill

I've never read a single piece of literature about poker and I don't think I ever will.
I have never used poker tracker or hud or any of that shit and still have always been a winner. /dicksizing :]

I was taught the game as a child and have many years of experience even at my young age.

Hadn't been playing much lately though.
But deposited the other night and I'm grinding .50/1$ and 1/2$ PLO 6max

I'm up 1,600 from 200 in a week :]

Oh also forgot, I watched the ME final table on ESPN3 and my guy Joseph Cheong really let me down.

How can you play an 8k man tourney for 8 days, have almost a million chips with 3 players to go and stack off vs a 4bet with A9 or whatever ace raggy hand he had. 
The difference there is almost 4 fucking million dollars!

I'm sure that's gonna sting for a very very long time.


----------



## Fjones

Bill said:


> I've never read a single piece of literature about poker and I don't think I ever will.
> I have never used poker tracker or hud or any of that shit and still have always been a winner. /dicksizing :]
> 
> I was taught the game as a child and have many years of experience even at my young age.
> 
> Hadn't been playing much lately though.
> But deposited the other night and I'm grinding .50/1$ and 1/2$ PLO 6max
> 
> I'm up 1,600 from 200 in a week :]
> 
> Oh also forgot, I watched the ME final table on ESPN3 and my guy Joseph Cheong really let me down.
> 
> How can you play an 8k man tourney for 8 days, have almost a million chips with 3 players to go and stack off vs a 4bet with A9 or whatever ace raggy hand he had.
> The difference there is almost 4 fucking million dollars!
> 
> I'm sure that's gonna sting for a very very long time.



all dicksizing aside, you would almost certainly improve your stats with a database program.  I've never heard of a top player who doesn't use one, or at the very least, a HUD (which relies on an underlying DB program to show the stats of the opponents at the table). 

1600 from 200 in a week is a seriously small sample size, but congrats on a good week.  

Regarding the ME, I assume you are referring to a heads up hand?  How deep were the stacks?  In the games I have played, folding A9 heads up at a Final Table would always be a serious error.  But I've never bought into an event higher than the $216 weekly specials on Party Poker and Full Tilt.


----------



## Bill

No I said they were three handed.

Cheong had like 90mill
Duhamel had like 80mill
and the shortstack Racener had like 27mill

Also like I said he shoved his whole stack vs a 4bet three handed.
I'm sure he's trying to get Duhamel to fold but he pretty much snap called with queens because Cheong had been 3 and 4betting him all night and bullying him to fold.

I just can't believe after all those times of getting him to fold after the 4 bets and duhamel 4 bets he fucking has to have a monster hand that def dominated A9, but Cheong shoves his whole stack and ends up going out in 3rd place winning something like 4million USD.

It's def not a bad pay day at all lol but considering how good Cheong was playing he was def mine and alot of other people favorite to take it down.

He'll most prolly never have that chance again.


----------



## Fjones

Bill said:


> No I said they were three handed.
> 
> Cheong had like 90mill
> Duhamel had like 80mill
> and the shortstack Racener had like 27mill
> 
> Also like I said he shoved his whole stack vs a 4bet three handed.
> I'm sure he's trying to get Duhamel to fold but he pretty much snap called with queens because Cheong had been 3 and 4betting him all night and bullying him to fold.
> 
> I just can't believe after all those times of getting him to fold after the 4 bets and duhamel 4 bets he fucking has to have a monster hand that def dominated A9, but Cheong shoves his whole stack and ends up going out in 3rd place winning something like 4million USD.
> 
> It's def not a bad pay day at all lol but considering how good Cheong was playing he was def mine and alot of other people favorite to take it down.
> 
> He'll most prolly never have that chance again.



I'd have to watch the whole hand but as described, seems like a good play to me.


----------



## Bill

^ Main Event Final Table

or

10 hour streaming footage


----------



## Fjones

Bill said:


> ^ Main Event Final Table
> 
> or
> 
> 10 hour streaming footage



The first link requires  a password and the second link still has more than 3 players left at the ten hour mark of the video.   At what time in the second video is this hand?


----------



## Fjones

I want to punch someone at the WSOP in the face.  Is it necessary to make an all-in take 3 minutes after the chips are in?   Just run the flop turn and river already !


----------



## Boulder257

*Online Poker*

Anyone playing online poker right now? If so, where and what are youy playing. Thought we could get a thread going for those of us playing to trade live stories as they occur. Especially playing in tournaments. I am on PokerStars under the screen name Boulder257.


----------



## Bill

There is already a thread for this.

Also, jokerstars action is tard slow, FTP FTW.


----------



## Infinite Jest

I'm feeling kinda dense tonight, what do you mean by 'tard slow', Bill?

I've just got back into playing, still at my low levels but I'm doing OK at the 90/180 player MTTs. Managed two second-places in the last week or so; got close in a few other games, and played reasonably well: been losing to suckouts, not bad play (re-raise guys all in PF: my AJ loses to J9, my AK to AT).  So hopefully can keep things going


----------



## Bill

Just the action, dealing, and rounds of betting takes forever it seems like.
Maybe I'm just used to the quickness of Full Tilt...


----------



## Onandoff

Sup OP, just came across thread today.  Good 2 c another grinder making it to drug forums  I'm a med. stakes grinder myself with most of the volume put in 2/4 - 5/10nl.  I play mostly on some of the euro sites and smaller sites as I find the field alot softer at the stakes I play.  I'm just sick of FT and stars' bumhunters dodging 6max games and playin hu only when the good opportunities arise   What stakes you play? My bad If you mentioned it already cuz I'm too lazy to go thru this thread.  And another question I would like to ask you is what is your favorite drug to be on while putting in a decent amount of hands? if you do have one lol.


----------



## Fjones

I don't play much any more.  The grind took its toll.  I never got past the $24 and $75 SNGs.  I couldn't make any big big scores in the large MTTs, which is where the money is.


----------



## Onandoff

oh ok cool. yaaa mtts are such brutal variance... thats why we call it donkaments right lol
ill be in LAPC WPT event in January. You should come!  Plenty of events ranging from small to big buyins.  Run goot one tyyme!


----------



## johanneschimpo

I think I got banned from FT. I only had like $8 in my account, no big deal.

PokerStars, here I come!


----------



## RedLeader

Haha, JC why did you get banned? Collusion with your alter-ego?


----------



## KamMoye

Fjones said:


> all dicksizing aside, you would almost certainly improve your stats with a database program.  I've never heard of a top player who doesn't use one, or at the very least, a HUD (which relies on an underlying DB program to show the stats of the opponents at the table).



i disagree, playing with HUDs is terrible imo. it's personal choice obv but when i used a hud i found myself relying too much on it.

i just take an assload of notes and sharkscope diligently. every time an unknown makes an aggressive play i tag a "?" colored note on him, so in little time i will learn if he's a reg or not.

i grind 12/180s and 45s/18s (up to $38) on pokerstars, same name as my BL.

ur right tho, it's all volume. volume volume volume. when you think about it like that it's so ez. volume and don't be afraid to experiment. (comfortable BR required ldo.)

i've only recently taken my game to the next level after a severe summer slump, after which i figured out why downswings rape your life: you start playing less. 

im just sad cuz of the ridiculous legislation that's set to pass. i hope i have a year or two to grind (bout to be supernova, prob will aim for SNE if there's no blackout 'til 2012) cuz i'm head over heels in love with poker.

re MTTs, i dunno, i'm not really feeling them. they're too soul-sucking imo. i don't like sitting down and playing for 8+ hours, longer than that for WCOOP and other majors. i've also read that the reward curve wrt income peaks @ 75K. i'll be more than fine making 75-100k a year, and to do that i don't need to play MTTs. in fact i think if you just play satellites (you get 11k if you satellite to the WSOP, for example, and those are ridonkulously easy) and take the cash you'll (at least I) will be much better off in terms of reward v time invested.

plus if you put in sick volume you get $20-40k in rakeback alone. ez game.


----------



## Fjones

KamMoye said:


> i disagree, playing with HUDs is terrible imo. it's personal choice obv but when i used a hud i found myself relying too much on it.
> 
> i just take an assload of notes and sharkscope diligently. every time an unknown makes an aggressive play i tag a "?" colored note on him, so in little time i will learn if he's a reg or not.
> 
> i grind 12/180s and 45s/18s (up to $38) on pokerstars, same name as my BL.
> 
> ur right tho, it's all volume. volume volume volume. when you think about it like that it's so ez. volume and don't be afraid to experiment. (comfortable BR required ldo.)
> 
> i've only recently taken my game to the next level after a severe summer slump, after which i figured out why downswings rape your life: you start playing less.
> 
> im just sad cuz of the ridiculous legislation that's set to pass. i hope i have a year or two to grind (bout to be supernova, prob will aim for SNE if there's no blackout 'til 2012) cuz i'm head over heels in love with poker.
> 
> re MTTs, i dunno, i'm not really feeling them. they're too soul-sucking imo. i don't like sitting down and playing for 8+ hours, longer than that for WCOOP and other majors. i've also read that the reward curve wrt income peaks @ 75K. i'll be more than fine making 75-100k a year, and to do that i don't need to play MTTs. in fact i think if you just play satellites (you get 11k if you satellite to the WSOP, for example, and those are ridonkulously easy) and take the cash you'll (at least I) will be much better off in terms of reward v time invested.
> 
> plus if you put in sick volume you get $20-40k in rakeback alone. ez game.



You use Sharkscope HUD but not a database for overlays of VPIP/PFR/Aggression  ? ?  

that seems very odd.   Of course, everyone has his own approach, but I would say that 95% of the highly profitable players use a database HUD overlay for their opponents' tendencies.  YOU should play very differently against a 57/34 than you would against a 17/15.  Depriving yourself of that information is - EV.  IF you're "relying on it too much" that might just mean you aren't using the information correctly.  I don't say that as an insult at all; learning how to properly integrate the slash stats of opponents is an entire skillset that takes practice and study to master.  

Regarding the taxes - Perhaps making more than 75K bumps you into a higher tax bracket but you'd still net more money than if you were in the lower tax bracket.


----------



## KamMoye

no i'm sayingi don't use a sharkscope HUD. if i want to look someone up i go to sharkscope.com.

i just read perca's well on 2p2 and he says he doesn't use a hud. in fact he says one of the best ways to improve is to stop using a HUD. i dunno how often tourny players use a HUD but ime it's not close to 95%. in cash games maybe; HUDs are a lot more common / necessary.

it takes at least a hundred hands for you to get enough of a sample size to act on. 57/34 over how many hands? maybe he's just running hot and getting the top 20% of hands. that happens often enough when ur running good. i play 180s and you don't get enough hands on a guy to get a large enough sample size, so if ur relying on your hud on a consistent basis you are making actions based on specious information.

maybe in MTTs tournies are more common (altho perca is a MTT player and my coaches are highly successful MTT players who dont use a HUD), cuz you stay at the same table for longer. at the same time though it's still not close to necessary. whatever makes u comfortable.


----------



## Max Power

I play mostly HU so VPIP and all that stuff is a moot, imo.


----------



## Fjones

Max Power said:


> I play mostly HU so VPIP and all that stuff is a moot, imo.



!????????????

You don't consider it important to know which % of the hands your HU opponent is playing !??


----------



## KamMoye

why do you think that you won't know if you don't have a number telling you?


----------



## Fjones

KamMoye said:


> why do you think that you won't know if you don't have a number telling you?



Play 200 hands against someone without a HUD and tell me what his VPIP, PFR, and post flop aggression are.  

Or, have a HUD that gives the correct answer.  

Seems like the HUD would be the way to go, no?


----------



## KamMoye

You kind of missed the point...

I don't need someone's VPIP to tell me how aggressive he's been, or how to respond to such aggression. 

Poker is a very simple game: you put people on ranges and play against their range.

Would you like to play heads-up against me? Feel free to use a HUD.


----------



## Fjones

KamMoye said:


> You kind of missed the point...
> 
> I don't need someone's VPIP to tell me how aggressive he's been, or how to respond to such aggression.
> 
> Poker is a very simple game: you put people on ranges and play against their range.



I'm sure you can do this quite well while multi-tabling also, right?  

Also, the HUD overlay gives you all stats you have on that player for life.  How exactly would you gain that information from mere observation?


----------



## Fjones

KamMoye said:


> no i'm sayingi don't use a sharkscope HUD. if i want to look someone up i go to sharkscope.com.
> 
> i just read perca's well on 2p2 and he says he doesn't use a hud. in fact he says one of the best ways to improve is to stop using a HUD. i dunno how often tourny players use a HUD but ime it's not close to 95%. in cash games maybe; HUDs are a lot more common / necessary.
> 
> it takes at least a hundred hands for you to get enough of a sample size to act on. 57/34 over how many hands? maybe he's just running hot and getting the top 20% of hands. that happens often enough when ur running good. i play 180s and you don't get enough hands on a guy to get a large enough sample size, so if ur relying on your hud on a consistent basis you are making actions based on specious information.
> 
> maybe in MTTs tournies are more common (altho perca is a MTT player and my coaches are highly successful MTT players who dont use a HUD), cuz you stay at the same table for longer. at the same time though it's still not close to necessary. whatever makes u comfortable.



You make some good points.  All I am saying is, information is valuable.  Obviously one needs to understand sample size and act accordingly.  

But in  the games I played, I frequently would see:

Hands / VPIP / PFR 

598 /  15 / 13  

You mean to tell me that isn't useful?


----------



## KamMoye

Fjones said:


> I'm sure you can do this quite well while multi-tabling also, right?



what are we talking about, cash or tourny? they're very different beasts. i'm much much better in tourny than cash, so i can multi-table tournies w/o a hud no problem. but im not as well-versed multi-tabling cash, so while i would play, say, 4 tables HUD-less, if i played 6-12+ i would need a HUD with basic stats to be more comfortable.



> Also, the HUD overlay gives you all stats you have on that player for life.  How exactly would you gain that information from mere observation?



why don't you try it and see? it's not something i can convince you of, it's something u learn through experience.

i didn't mean to imply that, in absolute terms, a HUD sucks. no, it just sucked for ME. that is only my reality, not necessarily anyone else's.

imo poker is about exploiting situations, not numbers. i find PT/hold 'em manager most useful when analyzing hands i've already played, not as i'm playing them.



Fjones said:


> But in  the games I played, I frequently would see:
> 
> Hands / VPIP / PFR
> 
> 598 /  15 / 13
> 
> You mean to tell me that isn't useful?



to me i interpret that as the player is a nit. that has its uses, yes, but id figure it out either way you know what i mean?


----------



## Fjones

KamMoye said:


> what are we talking about, cash or tourny? they're very different beasts. i'm much much better in tourny than cash, so i can multi-table tournies w/o a hud no problem. but im not as well-versed multi-tabling cash, so while i would play, say, 4 tables HUD-less, if i played 6-12+ i would need a HUD with basic stats to be more comfortable.
> 
> 
> 
> why don't you try it and see? it's not something i can convince you of, it's something u learn through experience.
> 
> i didn't mean to imply that, in absolute terms, a HUD sucks. no, it just sucked for ME. that is only my reality, not necessarily anyone else's.
> 
> imo poker is about exploiting situations, not numbers. i find PT/hold 'em manager most useful when analyzing hands i've already played, not as i'm playing them.
> 
> 
> 
> to me i interpret that as the player is a nit. that has its uses, yes, but id figure it out either way you know what i mean?




Fair enough.  

I don't play a lot of cash games.  I would probably make greater use of the HUD if I did.


----------



## Max Power

Fjones said:


> !????????????
> 
> You don't consider it important to know which % of the hands your HU opponent is playing !??



I have a general idea about his range without the need for an exact percentage. IMO, heads-up play moves too fast for a HUD to be necessary. Strategy evolves too quickly for a significant sample size to form. It's all about making adjustments before they do and staying one step ahead.and since I'm only playing one person at a time, even though it's across multiple tables, I can concentrate my focus on a single opponent instead of wondering if the BB is going to squeeze.


----------



## Fjones

Max Power said:


> I have a general idea about his range without the need for an exact percentage. IMO, heads-up play moves too fast for a HUD to be necessary. Strategy evolves too quickly for a significant sample size to form. It's all about making adjustments before they do and staying one step ahead.and since I'm only playing one person at a time, even though it's across multiple tables, I can concentrate my focus on a single opponent instead of wondering if the BB is going to squeeze.



Fair enough.  

Do you play HU cash games or HU Sngs?  I like SNGs so I tried some HU Sngs and I wanted to shoot myself.


----------



## Jesusgreen

I deposited $10 a few weeks back on FullTilt, since I had a little extra cash sitting in my bank and I enjoy poker - I know that's way under the bankroll for even NL2, but I won up to $70 with it.. unfortunately lost it all due to tilt and bad play.

Now I've signed up through PokerStrategy.com, a site that gives you $50 free starting capital - and provides you with guides on how to play better, (You can use Royaltramp as your referral if I'm the reason you decide to use it ) and got $50 free on William Hill poker. Basically they give you a 20 question quiz on poker strategy (with answers in their articles) and if you get it all right (you have 5 attempts) and can prove you're 18+ and not from the US, they credit you with $50 on one of the sites they're affiliated with. Unfortunately though you can't withdraw the money until you make ~$50 in rake, but you can withdraw any of your winnings 

Had a huge downswing all the way from $55 to $33, but took some time to analyse my hands, play tighter, and started playing 4 tables (still NL2 obviously) and today I've gone from $33 to $37.50 which is a nice little earning for NL2 - hoping I'll continue to play correctly and work my way back up. Although downswings suck I've still been clearing the rake on that bonus $50, and I'm up to $6.50 in rake now.

Also, on the subject of HUDs, very useful indeed. Not as much in a SNG where your play (at least late phase) is based more on the situation than the players, but in ring games HUDs can be really helpful, as long as you try not to rely on them - e.g. always raising against tight opponents and calling raises from extremely loose opponents, but it can help in tough situations. I'm using PokerTracker 3 atm, didn't pay for it myself though.

Edit: Just to add, to the people who've said "I don't need a HUD to see this guy is loose or this guy is tight" etc, try saying that when you're playing 8+ tables  Even on just 4 tables it's hard to get a read without a HUD on most players except very loose ones that you see playing every other hand.

Also, while I'm here. For NL FR players, thoughts on these hands?


*Known players:* (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands  click here)


		Code:
	

Position(Stack):
BBvsSteal	WTS	W$SD	ORL
RaisePreflop	hands	AF	vp$ip

UTG2 (2.03)


MP2 (0.58):
-	47	14	50
13	40	2.2	38

* 0.01/0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)*
_Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.90 by www.pokerstrategy.com._

*Preflop:* Hero is UTG2 with K
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_UTG1 folds_, Hero raises to $0.08, _MP1 folds_, MP2  calls $0.08, _5 folds_.

*Flop:* ($0.19) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets $0.1, MP2  calls $0.10.

*Turn:* ($0.39) 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

*River:* ($0.39) 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

*Final Pot:* $0.39

*Results follow (highlight to see):*
Hero shows a pair of kings (Ks Kd)
MP2 shows  (Td Tc)

Hero wins with a pair of kings (Ks Kd)

--- I checked turn here as I thought he might have the ace, after he checked I was ready to bet out on the river but there was now a flush on the board so I figured I'd check and call a small bet, or fold to a large one.


*Known players:* (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands  click here)


		Code:
	

Position(Stack):
BBvsSteal	WTS	W$SD	ORL
RaisePreflop	hands	AF	vp$ip



MP2 (2.11):
100	14	33	29
8	325	2.6	16

BU (1.97)

* 0.01/0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)*
_Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.90 by www.pokerstrategy.com._

*Preflop:* Hero is BU with A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_3 folds_, MP2 raises to $0.07, _2 folds_, Hero raises to $0.21, _2 folds_, MP2  calls $0.14.

*Flop:* ($0.45) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
MP2 bets $0.02, Hero raises to $0.20, _MP2 folds_.

*Final Pot:* $0.67

--- I'm thinking I should have raised ~$0.25 to $0.30 here, maybe even $0.35.


*Known players:* (for a description of vp$ip, pfr, ats, folded bb, af, wts, wsd or hands  click here)


		Code:
	

Position(Stack):
BBvsSteal	WTS	W$SD	ORL
RaisePreflop	hands	AF	vp$ip



SB (1.96):
0	13	0	50
6	50	-	12



BB (2.4):
-	29	44	13
4	139	1.1	24

UTG2 (2.15)


MP3 (1.11):
100	0	-	17
12	76	-	13

* 0.01/0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (10 handed)*
_Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Elephant 0.90 by www.pokerstrategy.com._

*Preflop:* Hero is UTG2 with A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



_2 folds_, Hero raises to $0.08, _2 folds_, MP3  calls $0.08, _2 folds_, SB  calls $0.07, BB  calls $0.06.

*Flop:* ($0.32) K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.23, _2 folds_, BB  calls $0.23.

*Turn:* ($0.78) 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.5, BB  calls $0.50.

*River:* ($1.78) Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

*Final Pot:* $1.78

*Results follow (highlight to see):*
Hero shows a pair of kings (As Ks)
BB shows  (Qd 3d)

Hero wins with a pair of kings (As Ks)

--- Should have shoved the river?


----------



## Infinite Jest

JesusGreen,

I'm sure others will give you better advice. It seems like you're being set up to have the hand taken away from you by a more aggressive player, though. Like you check that first hand to me, I'm betting and you have to give me credit for the A (on the turn) or the flush (on the river) right? In your spot, I probably bet the third hand on the river, I mean he could have KQ (or even k9) or be trapping with 77, but you're probably ahead.

And put me in the group who like HUDs. I've made some good plays recently thanks to knowing that (a) villain is 0/0 over 20 hands, so he's probably got me beat and I can fold; (b) villain is something like 60/30 so I've probably got him beat; (c) those still to act never raise PF so I can limp in and set mine. I play low stakes and aren't as good as you guys, so YMMV.


----------



## Max Power

Fjones said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Do you play HU cash games or HU Sngs?  I like SNGs so I tried some HU Sngs and I wanted to shoot myself.



started with SNGs (deep stack only) and later played cash. 60/40 split now. It has definitely improved my 6max game. So has PLO, but that's another beast altogether.


----------



## KamMoye

hand 1:

on the 2c turn ask yourself, would you call a bet? if so you need to bet yourself.

if not are you really giving up on the turn after a cbet w/ KK? 

also your cbet is a little too small. it's a dry board so you can get away w/ betting smaller but at these limits people will be calling too light. 

the hand is ugly because you're OOP -- once the A hits it's pretty much impossible to win a big pot. IP i would check behind, OOP i'm 2 barreling and taking it down a large portion of the time. if he c/cs two streets or C/R turn (a c/c flop, c/r turn line is always > 1 pair btw) i'm done with the hand.

hand 2: 

ur raise is too small, both PF and post-flop. id 3bet ~3.5x original raise, raise to ~.40 on the flop.

hand 3:

ur playing 2 NL and it's multi-way. bet more.

it's 2NL. shove's fine, so is a small bet (calling a shove) if you think he'll be more likely to call. i doubt he's folding K8, K9, Qxdd.


----------



## Max Power

If you're going to analyze a hand, 2NL isn't the place to do it. Getting feedback from hands you play is great, but 2NL might as well be play money. Strategy at those stakes is entirely different from even 25NL, hell 10NL!!! IMO, it's a waste of time.

Play ABC robot poker until you build a roll and then play against semi-decent, semi-thinking opponents.


----------



## Jesusgreen

The main idea is just to get general feedback on my hands, ignoring the fact that it's 2NL and that opponents in 2NL generally play very randomly. The idea being that if I get into good habits now, while they might not see me much improvement in 2NL, down the line they will when I move up, that way I don't find myself moving up to higher limits and becoming the fish right off the bat.

How do you guys manage tilt? A few improvements I'm making are: 5-10 min break after every bad beat, or even just some push ups or something. Several shorter sessions rather than one long tiring session. 2-3 buy-in stop loss limit.

This is my biggest problem right now, since I can quite comfortably profit at 2NL, but the minute I take a bad beat or a misclick or something, I immediately start tilting (and usually don't notice it immediately), 10 mins later I'm down 3-5 buy-ins.

Still down a fair bit, managed to tilt all the way down to $28 last night. Been playing a bit this morning and back up to $32.67, been a bit of a heater though, PPs hitting sets on the flop, plenty of fish. Going to have another session after I eat, hoping to hit ~$35 today, slowly start to build my way back up, hopefully quitting the moment I start tilting from now on.


----------



## KamMoye

if u tilt u should probably look at other aspects of your life / your demeanor in general. it's about maturity and discipline so if ur lacking in those areas i just wouldnt play poker.

i.e. exercise and eating and sleeping right. meditation has helped me leaps and bounds. the healthier u are the better u play imo.

as a result stuff only annoys me on a terrible DS; in fact that's how they become downswings in the first place. if ur confident in ur play then reassure yourself with your +ev and sklansky bucks. i use it as an opportunity for impromptu dialog about my game. and if the decision requires more than a few seconds of thought i need to save it for hand review.


----------



## Jesusgreen

I've started reading *The Poker Mindset* and that's really helping with tilt etc, I'm looking at all my poker as one big session, and thinking about the long term rather than worrying about if I'm up or down this particular hour or day. I'm also trying to get more hands in each day with +EV rather than worrying about finishing in profit.

Up to $39.50, I have a feeling working my way through micro stakes is going to take forever, but I'm definitely learning a lot in the process.


----------



## KamMoye

poker's really easy:

play it like it's one big session

personally i like the tao of poker, but once you are "enlightened" the trick is just discipline

which isn't a trick at all, just a lot of work

but u get out of it what u put into it


----------



## Jesusgreen

After ~6k hands I finally broke even (I don't have $50 again but I'm talking my cash game stats, since the other $10 was wasted on SNGs when I was on tilt), also the last week I've been playing a lot better than I was in the past, while it's slow, I think I'm improving a lot, and hopefully my graph will continue to rise 

Here is this morning's graph:





Pretty bad for 2NL I'd say but I've made big changes to my attitude to the game, and to avoiding tilt, stop loss limits etc since I hit 4k hands, and if you look at the section from 4k to 6k hands you can see a fair improvement over the rest of the graph. Obviously though 2k hands isn't a very good hand sample, so I'll re-evaluate when I hit 25k total hands, but I think my changes to stop me tilting etc have definitely helped.

Yesterday for example my KK (all in preflop) was beaten by T4o when he flopped a FH, and while I didn't feel like I was tilting, as a precaution I took a 30 minute break and came back - and I think it's those kind of little precautions that'll help stop big losses in the future.


----------



## KamMoye

got 11 days to get SN. need 9.5k VPPs. i take one day off a week so that's about 1K VPPs a day. 

hmm actually i'm cutting it kinda close. maybe i can't take a day off.

ive played like 1-2 times in the past 2 weeks. really not looking forward to grinding 30 hours a week but w/e, i'm only saying that because i've been running "bad." 

the thing is your brain is wired to avoid pain. so losing -- and breaking even is "losing" to your brain imo because i may lose for 4 straight hours and then get it all back in the last 30 min -- just makes you feel like not playing. the only solution is to play through it, which of course is the last thing u feel like doing.

o well, gotta get back on regimen anyway

btw the main reason u shouldnt be playing 2 nl (or anything below 10 nl) is because it's nearly impossible just to beat the rake


----------



## Jesusgreen

I'm playing with the free $50 that PokerStrategy.com gave me, and I don't have any money spare to put into something that I'm still a beginner at. $50 only gives me room to play 2NL, yeah I understand that it's hard for people, particularly beginners like me, to even break even with the rake, but it's free money essentially, once I've earned $50 in rake for WH I can keep the $50 so anything is profit really, and if I feel comfortable with my game at that point I can deposit money on top, but I don't think the rake is unbeatable, just a big thorn in the side.

Anyway, currently at ~$42, so ~$3 up in cash games, ~$8 down overall.


----------



## muntedmunter

I've been grinding the hu sngs and making a few bux here and there...

I grinded 6max 2nl for a month, then 5nl, 10nl up to 25nl and then moved to the 2.20 sngs, 5.00 and up and up atm I'm on the 50.00 HUsngs and hopefully the 100s soon when I build the roll up...

So I've been there before grinding out at the micros, and it's great for improvement, also the training sites really helped me too and 2P2...

I would out my SN for proof but don't really want to be associated with poker mates on this forum lol..

just sort of turned pro in November and started taking it more seriously since I needed to for the money, atm it's paying the rent, going out, food, bills etc etc which is a good thing...


Lifetime Graph which includes the MTT I fluked and all HUSNGs...






November to December HUsngs






And just December






annoying thing is I don't put in nearly enough volume have only just started putting in volume as of 2 weeks ago, even took a week off in December lol...

the rakeback on stars isn't to good, with my FPPs it takes me like 3 weeks to get a $250.00 voucher and I pay around $400.00 in rake a week.

Some hands from yesterday and today...

if you want me to explain my thought process I will so you don't think im a spewy fish! haha

GL all....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 52.5 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (2 handed) - Poker Hand Converter from PokerConverter.com

*saw flop* | *saw showdown*

*Hero (BB) (t1315)*
*SB (t1685)*

*Hero's M*: 17.53

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



SB calls t25, Hero checks

*Flop*: (t100) 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t50, SB raises to t200, Hero raises to t500, SB calls t300

*Turn*: (t1100) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero checks, SB checks

*River*: (t1100) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets t900, Hero calls t765 (All-In)

*Total pot:* t2630
*Main pot:* t2630 between Hero and SB, won by Hero

Results:
SB had 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (three of a kind, Aces).
Hero had K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (three of a kind, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won t2630

---

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 52.5 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (2 handed) - Poker Hand Converter from PokerConverter.com

*saw flop* | *saw showdown*

*SB (t2120)*
*Hero (BB) (t880)*

*Hero's M*: 29.33

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



SB bets t40, Hero calls t20

*Flop*: (t80) 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero checks, SB bets t40, Hero raises to t140, SB raises to t340, Hero raises to t840 (All-In), _1 fold_

*Total pot:* t760
*Main pot:* t760 won by Hero

Results:
Hero had 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.
Outcome: Hero won t760


----------



## muntedmunter

he got so owned today, he was obv going to show the 72o lol

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 52.5 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (2 handed) - Poker Hand Converter from PokerConverter.com

*saw flop* | *saw showdown*

*Hero (SB) (t1495)*
*BB (t1505)*

*Hero's M*: 33.22

*Preflop*: Hero is SB with Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero bets t90, BB raises to t240, Hero calls t150

*Flop*: (t480) 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t300, Hero calls t300

*Turn*: (t1080) 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t450, Hero calls t450

*River*: (t1980) 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t515 (All-In), Hero calls t505 (All-In)

*Total pot:* t2990
*Main pot:* t2990 between Hero and BB, won by Hero

Results:
Hero had Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, fives).
BB had 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Hero won t2990


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 52.5 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (2 handed) - Poker Hand Converter from PokerConverter.com

*saw flop* | *saw showdown*

*Hero (SB) (t1360)*
*BB (t1640)*

*Hero's M*: 45.33

*Preflop*: Hero is SB with 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero bets t60, BB calls t40

*Flop*: (t120) 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t80, BB raises to t220, Hero calls t140

*Turn*: (t560) K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t280, Hero calls t280

*River*: (t1120) 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t1080 (All-In), Hero calls t800 (All-In)

*Total pot:* t2720
*Main pot:* t2720 between Hero and BB, won by Hero

Results:
Hero had 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, fours).
BB had 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (high card, King).
Outcome: Hero won t2720


----------



## KamMoye

what site has better rakeback than stars? to my knowledge SN gets over 40%, SNE gets 60%? 

too paranoid to out ur name? 

if u posted this on 2p2 i'm sure you'd know what they'd say: thinly veiled brag

skimmed ur post so i didnt see: what stakes do u play?


----------



## muntedmunter

yeah my post orta go in BBV lol but it aint worthy! 

I play the 50 sngs on stars... Yeah I'm going to try and get to Platnium next month if I can put in more volume, been 2 tabling a bit now which should help me but my bring my ROI down, sitting on gold star atm which is around 22% rake back, Plat brings it up to around 30%...

Well I have my weekend bender and wild nights where I talk about it here, and then my poker mates who I don't know about my shenanigans lol so would like to keep it that way.


----------



## muntedmunter

atm I've been up for over 24 hrs grinding 18 hrs of them but am def not playing my A game anymore since I'm tired, but I need more money for chrissy and new yrs yo!!

grind grind grind


----------



## muntedmunter

KamMoye said:


> what site has better rakeback than stars? to my knowledge SN gets over 40%, SNE gets 60%?
> 
> too paranoid to out ur name?
> 
> if u posted this on 2p2 i'm sure you'd know what they'd say: thinly veiled brag
> 
> skimmed ur post so i didnt see: what stakes do u play?



sorry didn't read

well umm like FTP you can sign up for rakeback and at the end of every week they transfer you 25% in cash (not sure of exact amounts)...

I suppose stars is the best but you need to be Platnium or higher to really get the full benefits for it which requires alot of volume if I'm playing the 50 sngs, if I was on the 100s it'd be easy.


----------



## KamMoye

grinding 8 hours a day isn't that hard!

i consider it more like 6 hours, because that's how many hours i'm actively loading tables. i play 3 hours in the afternoon, take a break (nap/workout), then 3 more hours in the evening. it takes about an hour for all the tables to close after i'm finished loading, so it totals up to 8 hours. 

splitting it up into two sessions makes it very manageable! in the afternoon i can get more volume with my 180s, and in the evening most of the regs depart so it's so much softer, making it a good time to grind higher limits.

seems like i've got 2-3 months left of online poker so this'll probably be my new schedule: 36-40 hours a week. let's hope i can win 10k!

only bad thing is i'm startign to smoke a lot more weed. i never like playing poker while high -- i take my poker very seriously and don't like any distractions -- but i could see myself losing motivation and smoking weed to help myself get through the second session. plus i had to miss last night's mia/dal game; i won't be able to watch a lot of bball with this schedule =/


----------



## muntedmunter

^ haha yeah I always seem to bluff when high...

I played on xanax for around 12 hrs the other week and I don't remember playing however my graph shows me winning 550.00 and then loosing it in the session lol

so i won't be having that again.

GL to you


----------



## muntedmunter

this is why you need over 30 buy ins in the hu sngs, just some of the beats today which puts me down 700 lol...


Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t25/t50 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1089015
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*Hero (BTN/SB): t1455		 29.10 BBs*
*BB: t1545		 30.90 BBs*

*Pre Flop:* (t75) Hero is BTN/SB with A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero raises to t100, BB calls t50

*Flop:* (t200) 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t100, BB calls t100

*Turn:* (t400) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t200, BB raises to t400, Hero calls t200

*River:* (t1200) 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t500, Hero raises to t855 all in, BB calls t355

*Final Pot:* t2910
Hero shows A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (a flush, Ace high)
BB shows 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (a full house, Threes full of Nines)
BB wins t2910


Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1089019
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*BB: t1810		 90.50 BBs*
*Hero (BTN/SB): t1190		 59.50 BBs*

*Pre Flop:* (t30) Hero is BTN/SB with T
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero raises to t60, BB raises to t200, Hero calls t140

*Flop:* (t400) T
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t1610 all in, Hero calls t990 all in

*Turn:* (t2380) 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players - 2 are all in)

*River:* (t2380) 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players - 2 are all in)

*Final Pot:* t2380
BB shows 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (three of a kind, Sixes)
Hero shows T
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (a pair of Tens)
BB wins t2380


Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1089020
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter


----------



## muntedmunter

Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1089020
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*BTN/SB: t1420		 71 BBs*
*Hero (BB): t1580		 79 BBs*

*Pre Flop:* (t30) Hero is BB with K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



BTN/SB calls t10, Hero raises to t80, BTN/SB calls t60

*Flop:* (t160) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 T
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t120, BTN/SB calls t120

*Turn:* (t400) 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t300, BTN/SB raises to t1220 all in, Hero calls t920

*River:* (t2840) 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players - 1 is all in)

*Final Pot:* t2840
BTN/SB shows 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (a full house, Threes full of Deuces)
Hero shows K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (two pair, Aces and Threes)
BTN/SB wins t2840


Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1089021
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*BTN/SB: t1520		 76 BBs*
*Hero (BB): t1480		 74 BBs*

*Pre Flop:* (t30) Hero is BB with K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



BTN/SB calls t10, Hero raises to t80, BTN/SB calls t60

*Flop:* (t160) T
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t120, BTN/SB calls t120

*Turn:* (t400) 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t300, BTN/SB calls t300

*River:* (t1000) 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t980 all in, BTN/SB calls t980

*Final Pot:* t2960
BTN/SB shows 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (two pair, Queens and Deuces)
Hero shows K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (a pair of Kings)
BTN/SB wins t2960


----------



## muntedmunter

Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1089024
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*Hero (BB): t1930		 96.50 BBs*
*BTN/SB: t1070		 53.50 BBs*

*Pre Flop:* (t30) Hero is BB with 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



BTN/SB raises to t60, Hero raises to t200, BTN/SB calls t140

*Flop:* (t400) J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t300, BTN/SB raises to t870 all in, Hero calls t570

*Turn:* (t2140) 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players - 1 is all in)

*River:* (t2140) 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players - 1 is all in)

*Final Pot:* t2140
Hero shows 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (two pair, Eights and Fours)
BTN/SB shows A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (three of a kind, Fours)
BTN/SB wins t2140


Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1089028
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*BTN/SB: t2080		 104 BBs*
*Hero (BB): t920		 46 BBs*

*Pre Flop:* (t30) Hero is BB with 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



BTN/SB calls t10, Hero checks

*Flop:* (t40) 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets t20, Hero raises to t80, BTN/SB calls t60

*Turn:* (t200) 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero bets t140, BTN/SB raises to t280, Hero calls t140

*River:* (t760) A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets t500, Hero raises to t540 all in, BTN/SB calls t40

*Final Pot:* t1840
BTN/SB shows 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (a full house, Threes full of Deuces)
Hero shows 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (three of a kind, Threes)
BTN/SB wins t1840


----------



## muntedmunter

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 52.5 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (2 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) (t1170)
BB (t1830)

*Hero's M*: 39.00

*Preflop*: Hero is SB with A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero bets t60, BB calls t40

*Flop*: (t120) 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t40, Hero raises to t160, BB raises to t300, Hero calls t140

*Turn*: (t720) 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t320, Hero raises to t810 (All-In), BB calls t490

*River*: (t2340) J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 1 all-in)

*Total pot:* t2340

Results:
Hero had A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, Aces).
BB had 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (two pair, Jacks and tens).
Outcome: t2340 returned to BB



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 52.5 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (2 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) (t850)
SB (t2150)

*Hero's M*: 28.33

*Preflop*: Hero is BB with K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



SB bets t60, Hero raises to t160, SB raises to t2150 (All-In), Hero calls t690 (All-In)

*Flop*: (t1700) 8
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*Turn*: (t1700) 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*River*: (t1700) 10
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players, 2 all-in)

*Total pot:* t1700

Results:
SB had A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, Aces).
Hero had K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, K
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: t1700 returned to SB


----------



## KamMoye

how many good regs are on those HU tables? judging from those hands the level looks very profitable! 

do you use PT or HEM? what's your average length of table?


----------



## Crack4Lyfe

Fjones said:


> Hello gaming lounge.
> 
> I am a veteran online poker player with some solid results over the years.  There is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there about online poker.
> 
> I am making this post to answer any questions or have any discussions that any Bluelighters might have about online poker.
> 
> Serious posts only please, such as questions about bankroll, strategy, mental approach, the mathematics involved, game selection, etc.
> 
> Bluelight has been helpful to me and I would like to return the favor by sharing knowledge of something I am good at.






What's your username.


----------



## muntedmunter

KamMoye said:


> how many good regs are on those HU tables? judging from those hands the level looks very profitable!
> 
> do you use PT or HEM? what's your average length of table?



Well these days pokers getting better and better online so there a quite a few regs...

Basically there is only ever 1 available 50.00 HU sng table and the reg will sit down and wait for a fish to join and play the fish, usually the regs won't sit with each other since it's -EV.

You need a good ROI and be able to easily beat the sngs for regs not to join, so once you establish that rep they won't join unless they're tilting or have some ego problem lol.

The games are pretty easy since you're only playing fish in the HU tables but you get streaks of runbad which I had all yesterday and many many times before and no matter what when you get it in favorite you end up loosing which is why to be safe 50 buy ins is recommended but I usually keep it on 30 buy ins.

The games last an average of 15 minutes, some go for 3 minutes, some go for 30 minutes.

When the games are juicy I'll 2 table but doing that is pretty tough for me atm since you need to concentrate on 2 different opponents pkaying 2 different styles, so I need more practice on that.


----------



## muntedmunter

I use PT for when I'm playing for their stats but also have HEM since it's easier to see your daily profits, EV, hourly etc etc

I also write notes on each opponent since a lot of them change their style of play after a few weeks and that's where PT can screw you up


----------



## muntedmunter

This guy was being a douche so got him back, timed right down!

Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1089858
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*BB: t815		 27.17 BBs*
*Hero (BTN/SB): t2185		 72.83 BBs*

*Pre Flop:* (t45) Hero is BTN/SB with Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero raises to t60, BB calls t30

*Flop:* (t120) 7
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 J
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t60, BB calls t60

*Turn:* (t240) 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t180, BB calls t180

*River:* (t600) 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t515 all in, Hero says "hmmm", Hero says "JT good here???", Hero says "hmmmm is it????", BB says "let's go", Hero says "JT GOOD HERE???", Hero calls t515

*Final Pot:* t1630
BB shows A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (a flush, Ace high)
Hero shows Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (a full house, Nines full of Queens)
Hero wins t1630


----------



## Infinite Jest

I've decided that Pokerstars is rigged; in my favour! I had such a beautiful run the other night - short-stacked in a turbo so had to push, and everything held up 33 v AA, TT v JJ, a bunch of coinflips. Went from last out of 70 or so, with an M of about 4, to coming second. And I disconnected in the middle and went from 2nd to 10th before I could log back in 

(I obviously don't really think it's rigged, just countering people who complain that it is, because someone rivers a K and AK beats their QQ).


----------



## muntedmunter

^ Well done, feels good to ship a turbo? :D

Yeah people (including me) whinge about bad beats and sick suck outs but when I think about it, I've probs sucked out on people just as much as they have on me.

You only ever think about the bad beats but people forget about the times they sucked out.

UB is the only site that's rigged and a few small poker sites I'd say too which is why stars and FTP and the best.


----------



## KamMoye

when u think about it 80/20 or 70/30 is just not that big of a lead. 3 out of 10 or 2 out of 10 times you will lose. the way you lose may be very creative and "brutal," but it's all the same. 

and people forget things like me picking up KK when you picked up AK; you had to get really unlucky to get AK when i got KK. etc.


----------



## Infinite Jest

muntedmunter said:


> ^ Well done, feels good to ship a turbo? :D



Heh, I'm not at the level of most of you lot, but I'm in profit and having fun. I realise it doesn't make me a brilliant player :D


----------



## StrutterGear

Only 18, nearly 19 but I've already grown tired of online poker (been playing since 16 under my dads name). Live poker is real poker; i can't handle playing donkeys all the time. I'm lucky enough to now be living in London, and have already visited the Empire Theatre Casino and Foxes Poker Club. Love it.


----------



## StrutterGear

Fjones said:


> I actually think the decision whether to fold AA is often an interesting discussion.
> 
> In a DON SNG, here is how I would decide, on the bubble.
> 
> I would ask myself the following question --
> 
> "Does my making the top 5 depend entirely on whether the short stack wins his all in?"
> 
> In other words, if my stack is so small that I am assured of finishing 6th IF the Short stack wins his all in, I would just add my chips to the pile and increase the chances that I beat him with my AA (This assumes my stack is equal or larger to his so that I can actually bust him).
> 
> As an example, if there are 6 left and the short stack and I each have 400 at the 100 200 level, and the other players have 3175 each, and the short stack pushes, everyone calls, and I have AA, I am calling.
> 
> I see no value in folding.  If the short stack wins his all in, I am going to bubble.  If he loses the all in, he bubbles and I win.  So why not get in with the AA and increase the chances that the short stack actually does lose?
> 
> Regarding the last question you asked, if I am short stack on the bubble and there three all ins in front of me and I have AA in the big blind, I might consider folding.  But again, it depends on how likely I think I am to survive if no one gets knocked out.  What it the short stack holds up, possibly because we folded our AA?   Now we are still a short stack with no guarantee of getting a good hand.
> 
> As an extreme example though, if 4 people are all in for EXACTLY 2500 on the bubble and I have less than 2500, I am folding every time with AA, because surely SOMEONE is getting knocked out since they all have the same stack and can all knock each other out.  But if I stick it in, and multiple people lose, I get 6th by reason of starting the hand with fewer chips.
> 
> I like discussing poker with you.  I am glad this thread has drawn interest.




I just gotta say mate, if four people are all in and you're holding AA, it's more than likely that you've got every poor sod in that crushed. You're looking at their ranges of AK-AJ maybe even A10 depending on their desperation and position. Small-medium suited connectors for tiny stacks who are card dead, and smaller pocket pairs. It's hardly ever possible to justify folding AA preflop. Seriously. Chips are weapons, you're leaving weapons to other people. You wana win, not cash. If you're only looking at cashing don't play poker


----------



## KamMoye

need 1k VPP a day for the next 5 days

ugh i hate my life


----------



## Max Power

StrutterGear said:


> Only 18, nearly 19 but I've already grown tired of online poker (been playing since 16 under my dads name). Live poker is real poker; i can't handle playing donkeys all the time. I'm lucky enough to now be living in London, and have already visited the Empire Theatre Casino and Foxes Poker Club. Love it.



Live games are a lot softer than online games, so if you're looking to play less donkeys (you hate money?) then you're going the wrong direction.


----------



## StrutterGear

Naa, I like to play people who have a fucking hand range mate. I can outwit a good player because what he's doing is logical, and the cards he has can be worked out. Playing a 'any 2 card cunt' donkey who spunked his last 50 dollars on internet poker doesnt work for me. 

and live games are not soft, I'm not talking about £10 buyin pub games, I'm talking brick and mortar casinos in London.


----------



## Crack4Lyfe

StrutterGear said:


> Naa, I like to play people who have a fucking hand range mate. I can outwit a good player because what he's doing is logical, and the cards he has can be worked out. Playing a 'any 2 card cunt' donkey who spunked his last 50 dollars on internet poker doesnt work for me.
> 
> and live games are not soft, I'm not talking about £10 buyin pub games, I'm talking brick and mortar casinos in London.





I doubt you can outwit a good player if you can't outplay a 'donk'


----------



## StrutterGear

I'd love to play you some time and we'll test your theory. People without a hand range infuriate me, the 7% odds they had is always enough. 

And funny you should say that, even Daniel Negreanu has been quoted saying how he hates playing them. It's easier to outsmart a player who plays logically.


----------



## StrutterGear

Take this for example

I am short stacked, but have a £5 bounty chip. Tourny situation blinds are 500/1000

I shove UTG for 2 and a £5 bounty chip

Mid positions pushes OVER that, bloke behind him calls

I hold KK

Mid holds QJ suited

Last holds A8 off

Guess who won the race.


----------



## Max Power

Move up to where they respect your raises.


----------



## StrutterGear

Bankroll is the problem mate. Thats why live cash games with 1/1 limits are good, because I can buy in for 25-50 quid and take down 250 pound stacks. Playing 4.20 SnG online is what the average player with my bankroll is gonna do, and its full of idiots who play any 2 and get lucky. Its great when theyre stupidity means you get their chips, but more often than not in big pots i end up getting sucked. Shit happens I guess.

When I moved up to 40 dollar heads up games it improved, but I still had one outrageous suck out.


----------



## Max Power

Yeah, suckouts only happen online so you should be good.


----------



## StrutterGear

No need to be a dick mate. I play more hands, more games and in less time online, so of course I'm going to experience more suck outs.

Live games allow you to bring your personality to the table, which I use to my advantage. That KK situation was a live game anyway; in another thread I had complained about the lack of quality of poker games during the day at the Empire Theatre - where the WSOP Europe is held.


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> I just gotta say mate, if four people are all in and you're holding AA, it's more than likely that you've got every poor sod in that crushed. You're looking at their ranges of AK-AJ maybe even A10 depending on their desperation and position. Small-medium suited connectors for tiny stacks who are card dead, and smaller pocket pairs. It's hardly ever possible to justify folding AA preflop. Seriously. Chips are weapons, you're leaving weapons to other people. You wana win, not cash. If you're only looking at cashing don't play poker



Maybe you missed the first part of my post where I said I was referring to a DON SNG?  5th - 1st have the same payout.  Same with a survivor tournament.

As for the second part of my post, I think one must carefully consider the circumstances.  Again, if there are four left and the chip stacks are 3800 3800 3800 2100 and all three stacks of 3800 shove, it might be worth folding AA.  Assuming no chips, you would be guaranteed 2nd place with a 20% chance at 1st place.  If you call, you have a 50% chance of losing and getting NOTHING.  It's quote possible that the EV works out to be a fold.  I don't know if it does, but it might.  Perhaps someone can run it?


----------



## StrutterGear

Fjones said:


> Maybe you missed the part where I said I was referring to a DON SNG?  5th - 1st have the same payout.  Same with a survivor tournament.



I did indeed. Sorry bout that. Do you see any merit in playing SnGs with that structure? Not ripping or flaming, asking an honest question, I dont see the appeal.


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> I did indeed. Sorry bout that. Do you see any merit in playing SnGs with that structure? Not ripping or flaming, asking an honest question, I dont see the appeal.



Actually, my reply was a bit hasty.  I edited it to reflect the fact that my original post also discussed non DON SNGs.  

I agree with you about DON SNGs though, I hate the idea of them and see no reason to play.  They are also ripe for collusion.


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> Naa, I like to play people who have a fucking hand range mate. I can outwit a good player because what he's doing is logical, and the cards he has can be worked out. Playing a 'any 2 card cunt' donkey who spunked his last 50 dollars on internet poker doesnt work for me.
> 
> and live games are not soft, I'm not talking about £10 buyin pub games, I'm talking brick and mortar casinos in London.



Live games at a casino are WAY softer than online cash games.  And the goal should always be to play with donkeys.  Who cares if you can;t put them on a range?  Who acres if you can't "outplay" them?  You don't have to.  They'll outplay themselves and hemorrhage money.  Why would anyone ever want to play against STRONGER opponents?  Don't you think these stronger opponents will also be more aware of YOUR range and what YOU are doing?


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> Take this for example
> 
> I am short stacked, but have a £5 bounty chip. Tourny situation blinds are 500/1000
> 
> I shove UTG for 2 and a £5 bounty chip
> 
> Mid positions pushes OVER that, bloke behind him calls
> 
> I hold KK
> 
> Mid holds QJ suited
> 
> Last holds A8 off
> 
> Guess who won the race.




This is a bad thing that people stuck in their chips with garbage?


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> No need to be a dick mate. I play more hands, more games and in less time online, so of course I'm going to experience more suck outs.
> 
> Live games allow you to bring your personality to the table, which I use to my advantage. That KK situation was a live game anyway; in another thread I had complained about the lack of quality of poker games during the day at the Empire Theatre - where the WSOP Europe is held.



I just find online cash games very boring.  Live poker is more entertaining.  W can chat, get drinks, laugh, etc.   Online cash games make me want to strangle my Full Tilt Bear I have sitting on my desk.


----------



## Max Power

StrutterGear said:


> No need to be a dick mate. I play more hands, more games and in less time online, so of course I'm going to experience more suck outs.
> 
> Live games allow you to bring your personality to the table, which I use to my advantage. That KK situation was a live game anyway; in another thread I had complained about the lack of quality of poker games during the day at the Empire Theatre - where the WSOP Europe is held.




I prefer live play as well, for the social aspect. Sorry for the heavy sarcasm earlier.


----------



## Infinite Jest

StrutterGear said:


> Take this for example
> 
> I am short stacked, but have a £5 bounty chip. Tourny situation blinds are 500/1000
> 
> I shove UTG for 2 and a £5 bounty chip
> 
> Mid positions pushes OVER that, bloke behind him calls
> 
> I hold KK
> 
> Mid holds QJ suited
> 
> Last holds A8 off
> 
> Guess who won the race.



You've got roughly a 57% chance of winning that hand. It shouldn't surprise you too much that you didn't. Very dumb call by A8, but that's life. I'd rather play with bad players; sure I lose in situations like that, but I win more often


----------



## KamMoye

The Reid bill fails!!!!

I have a job for at least another year. Sweet!

Just hit Supernova! Now to shoot for Supernova Elite in 2011! 

This will also be the year I start infesting live cash (and maybe live tourny) games, too!


----------



## muntedmunter

^ It didn't get through congress more then 3 weeks ago.. 

Grats on supernova!


----------



## StrutterGear

Infinite Jest said:


> You've got roughly a 57% chance of winning that hand. It shouldn't surprise you too much that you didn't. Very dumb call by A8, but that's life. I'd rather play with bad players; sure I lose in situations like that, but I win more often



Yea I know obviously you want to worse players etc... But my bankroll doesnt allow for these sort of things, in the frequency it happens. It annoys me more that there's nothing I did wrong in the hand, should of taken down the pot, and still take an early taxi. 

I made up for it in a live cash game later that night anyway.


And I thrive on the pressure strong opponents give. Thats why I really wana play at the WSOP, Hellmuth on my table? Test yourself, etc. 


and to another reply - of course it matters that you cant work a hand range. How are you gonna make that heart thumping call with mid pair if you give the guy credit for that ace even though he limped SB.


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> Yea I know obviously you want to worse players etc... But my bankroll doesnt allow for these sort of things, in the frequency it happens. It annoys me more that there's nothing I did wrong in the hand, should of taken down the pot, and still take an early taxi.
> 
> I made up for it in a live cash game later that night anyway.
> 
> 
> And I thrive on the pressure strong opponents give. Thats why I really wana play at the WSOP, Hellmuth on my table? Test yourself, etc.
> 
> 
> and to another reply - of course it matters that you cant work a hand range. How are you gonna make that heart thumping call with mid pair if you give the guy credit for that ace even though he limped SB.



This is a rather silly post.  

First of all, what do you mean you "should of [sic] taken down the pot?"  Why?  Because you have a 57% probability of winning the hand?  You do realize this means you will LOSE 43 times out of 100 right?  Do you want them to reprogram the software so that you never lose when you are 57%?  That would be nice but that's not poker.  You aren't "supposed" to win any hand unless you have the nuts at the river, in which case you will win.  Other than that, your goal is to put yourself in winning spots, and being in a 3 way pot with a 57% chance to win definitely accomplishes that task.  

So, why would you waste any mental energy complaining about it and citing it as an example of why you can't win?

Regarding your comment about bankroll management - If your bankroll cannot sustain the variance of poker, then you aren't playing with the proper bankroll.  That's a flaw in your approach.  It's a poor reason to cite for your lack of success.  

Also, again, regarding your comment about not being able to put bad players on a hand range - You ALWAYS have the option of playing against better players.  Try it out and let me know how it goes.  If you can't beat bad players I am surely quite confident you'll be able to beat good ones by "putting them on a range."


----------



## StrutterGear

Because the A8 has no business being in the pot.

As I said, I took my game to a 1/1 cash game after that night and stormed the table.


----------



## StrutterGear

And yes, my bankroll management is poor. It's not an excuse for a lack of success it's a limitation to me bouncing back, I can't afford wild swings and thus take breaks after a big downswing.


----------



## KamMoye

who's the dude who played HU? u wanna play?


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> Because the A8 has no business being in the pot.



So?  This is a good thing.  People putting in chips with hands that "have no business being in the pot" is a good thing.


----------



## KamMoye

why u feeding the trolls?


----------



## Psychodelirium

Hello bluelight regs. I grind 50nl and 100nl HU cash on pokerstars. Sometimes I also play 6-max, but usually things like this happen:

*PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players*
_Hand converted by PokerTracker 3_

*CO: $122.00*
*Hero (BTN): $224.90*
SB: $127.45
BB: $81.90
UTG: $73.20
MP: $78.40

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50, *CO* posts ante $0.10, *Hero* posts ante $0.10, SB posts ante $0.10, BB posts ante $0.10, UTG posts ante $0.10, MP posts ante $0.10

*Pre Flop:* _($1.35)_ *Hero* has  Qc Qd 

_fold_, MP raises to $1.50, *CO* calls $1.50, *Hero* raises to $6.50, _fold_, _fold_, _fold_, *CO* calls $5.00

*Flop:* _($15.85, 2 players)_  2h 3d 2c 
*CO* bets $5.00, *Hero* raises to $15.50, *CO* calls $10.50

*Turn:* _($46.85, 2 players)_  6c 
*CO* checks, *Hero* bets $26.00, *CO* raises to $99.90 and is all-in, *Hero* calls $73.90

*River:* _($246.65, 2 players)_  Kh 

*CO* shows  Ks Ah  (Two Pair, Kings and Twos) (PreFlop 43%, Flop 26%, Turn 14% )
*Hero* shows  Qc Qd  (Two Pair, Queens and Twos) (PreFlop 57%, Flop 74%, Turn 86% )
*CO* wins $243.65


----------



## Fjones

interesting way for him to play AK.  A tough hand for sure, but you can't get worked up over losing a hand when you are an 86% favorite.  If you are playing regularly, you should be losing lots of those every day.


----------



## Psychodelirium

Fjones said:


> interesting way for him to play AK.  A tough hand for sure, but you can't get worked up over losing a hand when you are an 86% favorite.  If you are playing regularly, you should be losing lots of those every day.



Not in 500bb pots I'm not! 

To be fair, I wasn't _that_ enraged until villain, who was a huge fish, gave all my money to an asshole reg who was sitting on my left and 3betting me every time I opened.


----------



## muntedmunter

KamMoye said:


> who's the dude who played HU? u wanna play?



yeah HU4ROLLZ... :D

EDIT - anyone wanna play 10 or so games at the 50.00 HUSNGS then send me a PM, looking for a long session and fish usually quit after two.

Willing to pay the rake for you via tfer and maybe an hourly like 5.00 per hour...


----------



## Crack4Lyfe

^post your usernme


----------



## muntedmunter

^ I'm not outing my username but if you're serious send me a PM.


----------



## KamMoye

10 gms is too much, may as well grind my normal hours for that much work. i know by the 3rd game id be bored. 

we can do 3 $100 HU w/ u paying for my rake + min wage


----------



## Crack4Lyfe

KamMoye said:


> 10 gms is too much, may as well grind my normal hours for that much work. i know by the 3rd game id be bored.
> 
> we can do 3 $100 HU w/ u paying for my rake + min wage




but you are really bad, pretty obvious this isn't a serious offer....


----------



## StrutterGear

Just found out my ROI is 19%, not bad for a casual player. Note to self :: Make a deposit next week.


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> Just found out my ROI is 19%, not bad for a casual player. Note to self :: Make a deposit next week.



It's tough to evaluate a 19% ROI in a vacuum.  What games are you playing and how large is the sample size?  At he very least this shows promise though.


----------



## KamMoye

Crack4Lyfe said:


> but you are really bad, pretty obvious this isn't a serious offer....



u wanna put ur money where ur mouth is? methinks ur just a railbird 8)


----------



## StrutterGear

Fjones said:


> It's tough to evaluate a 19% ROI in a vacuum.  What games are you playing and how large is the sample size?  At he very least this shows promise though.



The whole of 2010, so a fair amount of games. But I didnt play in certain months due to work and college. Changing sites anyway, sick of Pokerstars, the bonuses dont offer me anything. 

i normally play SnGs $3.40-4.20 18-45 players, and heads up $15-40 (2-4). i rarely play cash games but did take a big upswing last time I played one online.


----------



## StrutterGear

It would be better if I had a bankroll, but a deposit of 10-30 quid will result in me only playing the 3 dollar and up SnGs. I have no time for micro limits, no motivation to go the distance.


----------



## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> The whole of 2010, so a fair amount of games. But I didnt play in certain months due to work and college. Changing sites anyway, sick of Pokerstars, the bonuses dont offer me anything.
> 
> i normally play SnGs $3.40-4.20 18-45 players, and heads up $15-40 (2-4). i rarely play cash games but did take a big upswing last time I played one online.



I don't like Pokerstars.   But I thought their bonus structure was one of their better features?  I prefer Full Tilt because I like the software better.  

I don't know what a "fair number of games" means.  19% ROI is excellent for 18 man SNGs and very good for 45 man SNGs.  

I don't know much about HU Sngs except that I hate them.


----------



## muntedmunter

KamMoye said:


> 10 gms is too much, may as well grind my normal hours for that much work. i know by the 3rd game id be bored.
> 
> we can do 3 $100 HU w/ u paying for my rake + min wage



I might take you up on that offer once my roll is bigger to play the 100s but atm I only have enough BIs to safely play the 50s.

I found a 2p2 reg who wants to play ten 50.00 games today and I don't have to pay rake so I'll see how I go.

GL at the tables


----------



## muntedmunter

Maybe it was a bad idea playing a reg, I don't usually have to 5bet bluff.. lol


Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1110022
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*Hero (BB): t1565		 78.25 BBs*
BTN/SB: t1435		 71.75 BBs

*Pre Flop:* (t30) Hero is BB with 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



BTN/SB raises to t40, Hero raises to t140, BTN/SB raises to t290, Hero raises to t640, _1 fold_

*Final Pot:* t580
Hero shows 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 5
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (high card Five)
Hero wins t580


----------



## Crack4Lyfe

KamMoye said:


> u wanna put ur money where ur mouth is? methinks ur just a railbird 8)



You are terrible, stop trying to dick size.


----------



## Crack4Lyfe

You are sick in the head.




muntedmunter said:


> Maybe it was a bad idea playing a reg, I don't usually have to 5bet bluff.. lol
> 
> 
> Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1110022
> DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter
> 
> *Hero (BB): t1565		 78.25 BBs*
> BTN/SB: t1435		 71.75 BBs
> 
> *Pre Flop:* (t30) Hero is BB with 4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTN/SB raises to t40, Hero raises to t140, BTN/SB raises to t290, Hero raises to t640, _1 fold_
> 
> *Final Pot:* t580
> Hero shows 4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (high card Five)
> Hero wins t580


----------



## KamMoye

Crack4Lyfe said:


> You are terrible, stop trying to dick size.



nou


----------



## muntedmunter

STRATEGY - lol.. zzz

Anyway same guy, so have some pretty good reads on him now.

Earlier in the match he simply donked out on a flop oop, he checked the turn as did I and when I did a small valueish bet on the river he snap folded...

So a few minutes later he took the exact same line, but when he checked the turn  I decide to bet the turn just to take it down right there just incase he hits a 6 or w/e on the river which can be tilting. I'm pretty confident my A high is good here a good % of the time.

He times down and makes a weak looking raise, if he really had the Q he knows that I'm going to bet big on the river just like I did last time so he should just call and let me bet my bluffing range.

He min raises me and if I shove over it it sort of turns my hand into a bluff just incase he has a 6 or 4 so I call, on the river he bets pretty big and the only option here is to shove over the top because he never ever has a Q and he can't possibly call with a 6,4,3 and not much else is in his range.

I still think I'd be good there with my A high but sometimes just to be sure you need to shove to make sure.


Poker Stars $50.00+$2.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players - View hand 1110033
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

*Hero (BTN/SB): t1410		 70.50 BBs*
*BB: t1590		 79.50 BBs*

*Pre Flop:* (t30) Hero is BTN/SB with 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero raises to t60, BB calls t40

*Flop:* (t120) Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 6
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Q
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t40, Hero calls t40

*Turn:* (t200) 4
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t140, BB raises to t300, Hero calls t160

*River:* (t800) 3
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


(2 players)
BB bets t400, Hero raises to t1010 all in, BB folds

*Final Pot:* t1600
Hero mucks 9
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 A
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



Hero wins t1600


----------



## KamMoye

terrible play imo


----------



## Fjones

I don't know much about HU but some of this  seems pretty bad; especially the 4 5 offsuit.  You are obviously calling if he shoves.  If you think you have an edge on the guy why would you play 4 5 offsuit that way?    Of course, it's easy to post that when it works... I doubt it gets posted the numerous other times it fails.  

The A9 is a bit less clear to me but also seems like a terrible play.  He's nearly committed.  You have almost zero bluff equity.  Your Ace high was obviously good if he folds, so what is the point of the raise?  He's only calling if you are beat, and is almost certainly calling if you are beat.  

If he snap calls there do you post the hand?


----------



## Crack4Lyfe

Fjones said:


> I don't know much about HU but some of this  seems pretty bad; especially the 4 5 offsuit.  You are obviously calling if he shoves.  If you think you have an edge on the guy why would you play 4 5 offsuit that way?    Of course, it's easy to post that when it works... I doubt it gets posted the numerous other times it fails.
> 
> The A9 is a bit less clear to me but also seems like a terrible play.  He's nearly committed.  You have almost zero bluff equity.  Your Ace high was obviously good if he folds, so what is the point of the raise?  He's only calling if you are beat, and is almost certainly calling if you are beat.
> 
> If he snap calls there do you post the hand?



Post your username


----------



## muntedmunter

Well the 45o was against a reg where we were playing a lot of matches so it was more of a level attempt / metagame.

If he shoved over the top I would of snap folded (still will have 40bb left) so he new I was 4bet/5bet bluffing which means in later games I can get more value out of the top 5% of my range. Plus showing that is so +EV since it will make him tilt more

I don't believe I had a massive edge against him but I did have an edge, plus through out the match I was 3betting him pre around 30% and he kept on folding, now when he picked up KK a few hands earlier he just flat called my 3bet... A few mins later, he KNOWS that I have a very wide 3betting range so he's going to flat just like last time and let me barrel off my stack - so with game flow I asked myself, why the f would he min4b me wiping out all my mediocre hands and him loosing value from all his hands - tbh it really just smelt like a bluff and his attempt to play back at me - plus it's +EV for me in later games (metagame)

With the A9 if you were railing the match he was calling close to 100% OOP against me, so his calling range was extremely wide, I was cbetting close to 100% and he kept on folding.

So once again, if I am cbetting him 100% of the time then he should check/call/chk/call etc etc, when he donks it's obvious he has total air JUST like the last hand I mentioned...

If I'm going to be letting a reg push me around in those type of spots and not think outside the box and constantly play my two cards, not his, then I'm going to be the super ABC reg who can only beat fish, can't beat regs and never move up to the 100s, 200s etc.

"He's only calling if you are beat, and is almost certainly calling if you are beat."

That's such level 1 thinking and so std, yeah it's true but I played that hand EXACTLY like a Q from his eyes and that's what matters, there's no way he can call there with a 6,4 or 3 and probably any PP below 9s... From his eyes it looks like I have 0% fold equity (he has around 15bb left) so it's actually a top notch play and a lot of other regs would agree with me - plus say he had Ax type hand, well I get him off a chop.

And yes I loose a lot of edge playing regs, but it helps with my game and NO I would never do this against a fish since it's just plain stupid, but against regs I'm always trying to improve my game, think outside the box and pwn their souls.

If it didn't work well I wouldn't have posted it cause I like to brag about my sik hands, my sik ROI and I always follow my instincts when playing my A game

nuff said


----------



## Fjones

Crack4Lyfe said:


> Post your username



gogo diamant

Check me out on OPR.  I'll pwn you.


----------



## StrutterGear

Fjones said:


> I don't like Pokerstars.   But I thought their bonus structure was one of their better features?  I prefer Full Tilt because I like the software better.
> 
> I don't know what a "fair number of games" means.  19% ROI is excellent for 18 man SNGs and very good for 45 man SNGs.
> 
> I don't know much about HU Sngs except that I hate them.



As far as I'm aware pokerstars bonuses only really cater for larger deposits and big grinds, which I don't have the time for. The one I'm moving to is on a result basis that I could achieve without extreme effort.


----------



## StrutterGear

The thing with heads up games on Pokerstars is usually end up playing with people who float every single flop. 

For 50 dollars I'm not 3 betting with 4-5 off though, you're just looking to get punished. Then again if you have a gut feeling, you have a gut feeling. I've bet out with Q high on an AK board just because I felt he had trash, and was right. Sometimes you just know


----------



## KamMoye

muntedmunter said:


> If it didn't work well I wouldn't have posted it cause I like to brag about my sik hands, my sik ROI and I always follow my instincts when playing my A game



it's ez to rationalize why ur play worked and why ur such a SICK player but in the end this is what matters. i don't think this is BBV4L so post ur BBV elsewhere?

on one hand thats why i like poker, cuz IRL everyone talks shit and never wants to back it up, but then on the other hand winning money turns everyone into a douchebag genius so it's like stfu. if u were really SO SICK u would be playing higher limits.


----------



## muntedmunter

^

Just checked thread.. But yeah I'm only joking with those comments about me being sik, it was pretty arrogant of me to say that.

I'm actually not even that good, I just play fish in HUsngs, have a very small edge against most of the regs (if any at all) and one day hope to move up.

The majority of my bluffs don't work and in those hands I suppose I got lucky!


----------



## hydrochron

Just downloaded pokerstars, big time player right here. I like how you can use real money or play money. So far i've been watching a few tables, going to get the feel for everything then jump on in.


----------



## hydrochron

Can anyone tell me how cashing out working with poker stars? It seems pretty easy, there's just some restrictions in the good old US OF A. For the most part is it easy to get your winnings?


----------



## muntedmunter

I'm not to sure about USA players in Australia and I assume the same as the states it usually takes me just under 24 hours for the money to be deposited into my bank.

It's kind of dependent on how often you play there, when I first started I usually only deposited money on the site but when I did make a withdrawal it took about 1 week.


----------



## hydrochron

Cool, for some reason they make it so difficult to buy chips.  So i'm just playing with play money right now. But that's good to know that cashing out is relatively easy. 

I cant believe some people play with 40k on the table, rich bastards lol....


----------



## KamMoye

hydrochron said:


> Can anyone tell me how cashing out working with poker stars? It seems pretty easy, there's just some restrictions in the good old US OF A. For the most part is it easy to get your winnings?



echecks

goes directly to ur bank account within 5 business days (i usually get mine in 3)

or u can get a check


----------



## KamMoye

hydrochron said:


> Can anyone tell me how cashing out working with poker stars? It seems pretty easy, there's just some restrictions in the good old US OF A. For the most part is it easy to get your winnings?



echecks

goes directly to ur bank account within 5 business days (i usually get mine in 3)

or u can get a check


----------



## KamMoye

i think ive played once since i posted in this thread

i have like 5 days to get 6k vpps to maintain supernova

shouldnt be that hard but im prob gonna do drugs tonight to make it harder

why do i make it so hard on myself? 

i swear after tonight i'm sober, and gonna do nothing but play pokey. my goal was to make 75k this year (aug 2010-11). i'm waaay behind, but if i put in 5-6 good months i can easily make it up

glglglgl

(ya i know i should stfu and go blog  )


----------



## KamMoye

7.5vpps a month to maintain supernova

that's all i'm gonna do

other than that, i play live

if you're ever @ the commerce or the bike and want to play, hit me up!


----------



## Haryer

Hey guys i was just wondering if any of you played poker or know a good place to learn it?


Cheers
Bhopen


----------



## muzzard

resurrecting this thread. I had a good month in March!


----------



## TheLostBoys

Some online poker is rigged. I use to play at Party Poker until the U.S. govt shut it down to U.S. citizens. I loved playing there & collected some good money but after they closed, I switched to Full Tilt, that site is shady! I dont play online poker anymore, I just bet on sports.


----------



## Fjones

TheLostBoys said:


> Some online poker is rigged. I use to play at Party Poker until the U.S. govt shut it down to U.S. citizens. I loved playing there & collected some good money but after they closed, I switched to Full Tilt, that site is shady! I dont play online poker anymore, I just bet on sports.



In what way is the site shady?


----------



## His Name Is Frank

I love the game, but it brings out the demon in me like no other game has ever done. I guess because you're usually playing with 8 other people and the odds are pretty good that there's a high rate of douchebags and assholes playing. The bad beats rip out my heart and feed it back to me tiny bites at a time. The reasonable folds that would have turned into winning the pot had you stayed in just one more hand. If this game had come out in the 1800s, the body count in saloons would have been massive.

Plus, I don't trust technology enough to not always suspect that I'm getting fucked over by game itself. I'd rather play with real cards. Anyone here actually win good money on any of those sites?


----------



## Fjones

His Name Is Frank said:


> I love the game, but it brings out the demon in me like no other game has ever done. I guess because you're usually playing with 8 other people and the odds are pretty good that there's a high rate of douchebags and assholes playing. The bad beats rip out my heart and feed it back to me tiny bites at a time. The reasonable folds that would have turned into winning the pot had you stayed in just one more hand. If this game had come out in the 1800s, the body count in saloons would have been massive.
> 
> Plus, I don't trust technology enough to not always suspect that I'm getting fucked over by game itself. I'd rather play with real cards. Anyone here actually win good money on any of those sites?



Define "good money."  

I have profited around 50K in my "career" online.  For the number of hours, it amounts to a very modest win rate, but still........

I have checked my database of hand histories, which totals close to a million hands.  There is nothign out of the ordinary.  No one has ever been able to produce data showing any anomalies as far a that goes.  

The cheating issues that have occurred had nothing to do with the cards, but rather, collusion, trapping, team play, multiple accouters, and in rare cases. someone hacking the system to see people's hole cards.   But there is zero proof that draws hit too often, that bad players get "luckier", or any of that stuff.


----------



## KevinKostner

Have had a few friends hit decent in some tourneys recently online (all use UltimateBet). I save my playing for house games and the boat. On a losing streak recently, someone recommend a poker read (Supersystem???)???


----------



## Fjones

KevinKostner said:


> Have had a few friends hit decent in some tourneys recently online (all use UltimateBet). I save my playing for house games and the boat. On a losing streak recently, someone recommend a poker read (Supersystem???)???



Yes, read Super System.  Then get a time machine and go back to 1985 when the book might still be relevant.  

Try any of Harrington's books.  They are well-written and informative.


----------



## muntedmunter

Sik graph Muzzard, looks like your totally owning the games.



Fjones said:


> Yes, read Super System.  Then get a time machine and go back to 1985 when the book might still be relevant.
> 
> Try any of Harrington's books.  They are well-written and informative.



Harrington's books are very outdated and a lot of the material from them is actually not very useful for online poker these days.

It's good I suppose for live players who are just starting and want to know the basics but since the game is getting so tough over the past few years, especially online those books are useless imo.

Your best bet is to go to Deuces Cracked which is an updated online training site where winning players/coaches add videos every day.

And the cheating scandal basically involved people who owned the site at the time Absolute Poker who were logging in through the system and seeing their opponents hole cards.

They got busted once this guy kept calling down with T high for 30k pots lol.

Info: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/ultimatebet-scandal-sticky-251207/


----------



## muntedmunter

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2011/04/online-poker-big-three-indicted-10218.htm


----------



## alasdairm

shady?



			
				yahoo news said:
			
		

> *3 online poker houses face fraud charges in NYC
> *
> 
> NEW YORK – The multi-billion-dollar business of the three biggest Internet poker companies became a target of federal authorities before an indictment was unsealed Friday, charging 11 people with bank fraud and illegal gambling.
> 
> Prosecutors in Manhattan said they've issued restraining orders against more than 75 bank accounts used by the poker companies, interrupting the illegal flow of billions of dollars.
> 
> U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said the defendants "concocted an elaborate criminal fraud scheme, alternately tricking some U.S. banks and effectively bribing others to assure the continued flow of billions in illegal gambling profits."
> 
> The companies, all based overseas, were identified as PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker and Absolute Poker. The indictment sought $3 billion in money laundering penalties and forfeiture from the defendants.
> 
> The indictment said the companies ran afoul of the law after the U.S. in October 2006 enacted the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act, which makes it a crime for gambling businesses to knowingly accept most forms of payment in connection with the participation of another person in unlawful Internet gambling.
> 
> Authorities said Absolute Poker responded by saying in a release after the new law was enacted that it would continue its U.S. operations because "the U.S. Congress has no control over" the company's payment transactions.
> 
> Efforts to reach the companies for reaction were not immediately successful. Phone calls either went unanswered or messages were not immediately returned. An attempt to look at the website for PokerStars.com was met with a message from the FBI saying the domain name had been seized as part of a criminal probe.


full item

alasdair


----------



## Fjones

The US government is a powerful force indeed.  You have to hand it to them for passing an "illegal gambling enforcement act" when the gambling in question is not even illegal.  

Of course, the US government allows state lotteries, which constitute gambling with very poor odds on a "game" of complete luck.  

Yet, online poker is a problem?  It's a problem if people willingly gamble on their own ability to play a game of skill against other willful participants?  I would love to hear anyone try to defend this ludicrous position, especially keeping in mind that the US government seems to have little objection to poker itself if it is played in a brick and mortar casino.


----------



## Crack4Lyfe

Fjones said:


> The US government is a powerful force indeed.  You have to hand it to them for passing an "illegal gambling enforcement act" when the gambling in question is not even illegal.
> 
> Of course, the US government allows state lotteries, which constitute gambling with very poor odds on a "game" of complete luck.
> 
> Yet, online poker is a problem?  It's a problem if people willingly gamble on their own ability to play a game of skill against other willful participants?  I would love to hear anyone try to defend this ludicrous position, especially keeping in mind that the US government seems to have little objection to poker itself if it is played in a brick and mortar casino.



Yah you might want to reread those news reports again because you totally missed the point.


----------



## muntedmunter

I just withdrew my roll on FTP and Stars.

Hope it arrives, when it does I will be re-depositing it since I originally thought my account would be locked and all sites closed down.

Australia here.


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## Fjones

Crack4Lyfe said:


> Yah you might want to reread those news reports again because you totally missed the point.



I assure you I haven't missed any point.  I have read a couple dozen articles about this matter. Which "point" exactly do you think I am missing?  My last post was obviously not intended to be a full recap of the entire issue.   Perhaps YOU missed MY point.


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## Infinite Jest

Stars is still running at pokerstars.eu for non-US players.

Sorry you guys are having to deal with this shit


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## Max Power

Black Friday. 

Luckily I've been playing a lot more live leading up to this past week's event. Alas, many players don't have the same luxury of a local poker room. And even those of us who do are still missing out on certain nuances only online play can offer (e.g. HUPLO)


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## Fjones

nguboi said:


> Paayaaace.  Fjones.... whyyyyyy!!! whyyy nowww!!!??



Why not?  Because the Federal government is a group of criminal thugs that use force and the threat of force to commit crimes and exert their will over a helpless mass of citizens who are too afraid to fight for their rights.


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## StrutterGear

Loaded up 4 tournys. Two 180 man, two 45 man.

Allin preflop
AK fucked by A7, runner flush.
KK cracked by AJ
AA fucked by QJ OFFSUIT
AJ fucked by QJ OFFSUIT AGAIN

Posting hand histories soon cause there are alot more, just in the past 2 hours. Very bad run, very very bad run.


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## Bill

Hadn't been playing much at all when I heard about what happened
Fuck

Can you imagine how many people with rolls just ranging from like 10 to 600k or even higher are prolly going to just lose it all right?
FTP is assuring the US players they're going to get there money but I've seen alot of people saying it's not going to happen.


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## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> Loaded up 4 tournys. Two 180 man, two 45 man.
> 
> Allin preflop
> AK fucked by A7, runner flush.
> KK cracked by AJ
> AA fucked by QJ OFFSUIT
> AJ fucked by QJ OFFSUIT AGAIN
> 
> Posting hand histories soon cause there are alot more, just in the past 2 hours. Very bad run, very very bad run.



I think you should indeed post some of these hand histories.  You know what would be an even better use of your time and energy?  

ANYTHING.  

Seriously, good hands lose to bad ones thousands of times per day.  Next hand, next tournament, move on.  Focus on decisions, not results, blah blah blah, hackneyed cliche, etc.


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## Fjones

Bill said:


> Hadn't been playing much at all when I heard about what happened
> Fuck
> 
> Can you imagine how many people with rolls just ranging from like 10 to 600k or even higher are prolly going to just lose it all right?
> FTP is assuring the US players they're going to get there money but I've seen alot of people saying it's not going to happen.



I think FTP players and poker stars players will get their money back.  

If they don't, the U.S. government is going to look worse than it already does, and I don't think they want that.


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## johanneschimpo

I was able to successfully withdraw my money (bank transfer) from Poker Stars a few days ago. Mind you it wasn't much, but still, I didn't think it was a problem at this time. Just my experience, and yes I am in the US

As for FT, I don't know - I had a little bit on FT but they banned me and took my money for "collusion" or some bullshit.


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## StrutterGear

Fjones said:


> I think you should indeed post some of these hand histories.  You know what would be an even better use of your time and energy?
> 
> ANYTHING.
> 
> Seriously, good hands lose to bad ones thousands of times per day.  Next hand, next tournament, move on.  Focus on decisions, not results, blah blah blah, hackneyed cliche, etc.



I try mate, I try. SCOOP £$10 event, bout 11kk runners left out of 20k, I hold KQ he holds JJ, he only calls my 3 BB raise

FLOP KK8, I raise, he pushes, I snap call.

Turn 7, river J 

It pisses me off, but my best mate got quad 5s cracked by 77s last night, so it makes me feel a lil better I havent reached that magnitude. 


No I'm not a 'new' player, been playing for years.

I do agree, I should get over it, but busting out of 4 tournys within minutes of eachother in the same manner is aggrivating.


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## Max Power

Merge network ftw


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## His Name Is Frank

StrutterGear said:


> I try mate, I try. SCOOP £$10 event, bout 11kk runners left out of 20k, I hold KQ he holds JJ, he only calls my 3 BB raise
> 
> FLOP KK8, I raise, he pushes, I snap call.
> 
> Turn 7, river J
> 
> It pisses me off, but my best mate got quad 5s cracked by 77s last night, so it makes me feel a lil better I havent reached that magnitude.
> 
> 
> No I'm not a 'new' player, been playing for years.
> 
> I do agree, I should get over it, but busting out of 4 tournys within minutes of eachother in the same manner is aggrivating.



Am I missing something here? If you had trip Ks and he had trip Js, why were you pissed?


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## Cevain

His Name Is Frank said:


> Am I missing something here? If you had trip Ks and he had trip Js, why were you pissed?



The other dude has a full house on the river .


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## Fjones

StrutterGear said:


> I try mate, I try. SCOOP £$10 event, bout 11kk runners left out of 20k, I hold KQ he holds JJ, he only calls my 3 BB raise
> 
> FLOP KK8, I raise, he pushes, I snap call.
> 
> Turn 7, river J
> 
> It pisses me off, but my best mate got quad 5s cracked by 77s last night, so it makes me feel a lil better I havent reached that magnitude.
> 
> 
> No I'm not a 'new' player, been playing for years.
> 
> I do agree, I should get over it, but busting out of 4 tournys within minutes of eachother in the same manner is aggrivating.



I know what you mean.  If my KQ always beat JJ, I'd have won a lot more tournaments in my life.  It's frustrating.


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## Myxomatosis

Exploring what sites to transfer to for the time being during this very gloomy period of being an online poker player in the US.  Been at Stars and FTP for so long I guess I just lost sight of this situation ever becoming a reality.  Haven't played since Black Friday.  Any suggestions on what sites to checkout?  I suppose I should just post in the 2+2 forums, but I always like to hear BLer's suggestions.


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## Max Power

Whatever sites you ultimately choose, treat whatever money you put on there as 'play money' because the odds of withdrawing in the current online current market is grim. I've deposited on the Merge Network (specifically Lock Poker) and they have a decent player pool. I prefer live play, but where else am I suppose to get my HUPLO fix??


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## kickout1234kickout

Dude, online poker is illegal to play. Stop acting like you are a top gambling professional.


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## NomNomNom

To quote John Lennon:

"If it don't feel right, don't do it"

Online poker stopped feeling right for me the week after i cashed $200 from FullTilt (3-4 years ago) I had a system that worked very consistently, i didn't change it at all, and i stopped winning thereafter. I don't believe there was a huge conspiracy or that it was rigged or that i was playing bots, i just think something changed that i'm not able to put my finger on, it didn't feel right, so i said fuckit.

I definitely wouldn't put any real cash online today. The games are razor thin when you're actually playing people. Factor in known bogeys like bots, collusion etc. and it's not even close to worth it.

B&M FTW!


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## Fjones

kickout1234kickout said:


> Dude, online poker is illegal to play. Stop acting like you are a top gambling professional.



That is false.  Online poker is not illegal.  Can you cite any law that says otherwise?


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## Bill

Max Power said:


> Whatever sites you ultimately choose, treat whatever money you put on there as 'play money' because the odds of withdrawing in the current online current market is grim. I've deposited on the Merge Network (specifically Lock Poker) and they have a decent player pool. I prefer live play, but where else am I suppose to get my HUPLO fix??



Didn't know you liked PLO, Max
We should play sometime

I never really liked HU anything but love 6max PLO

Went to the boat one night over the weekend
Poker room was packed, they even had horse games going which I've never seen at my local casino

Was up about 120 though after a couple hours playing 1/2 so overall was a fun night


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## Mehm

PS let me cash out my 64$ fwiw


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## Max Power

Bill said:


> Didn't know you liked PLO, Max
> We should play sometime
> 
> I never really liked HU anything but love 6max PLO



It's good to play a variety of formats. HU has improved my 6max game just like PLO has aided my hold 'em game. Still trying to figure out how full ring 2 7 triple draw has done anything other than eat my roll.


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## TheLostBoys

I use to play on Party Poker until the shit hit the fan & then moved toe Full Tilt. I never had more than $1,000 in my account at one time. I trust sports betting sites way more than these poker sites anyway. By the way, I didnt have any money in my accounts when both poker sites went down thank goodness.

As for the people losing there money, I feel terrible for them. F**king bastards that run these online poker sites know people cant do anything about there money so why should they return it. These sites always make out like bandits no matter how you look at it. Another thing is, I never thought these online poker sites were on the up & up. Always thought something shady was going with the cards & what not.


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