# The Big and Dandy NBOMe-2C-C (25C-NBOMe) Thread



## Lawrence

Welcome to the Big & Dandy 25C-NBOMe Thread

*2-(4-chloro-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)-N-(2-methoxybenzyl)ethanamine* 



*Description:* Classical psychedelic

*Dosage:* 200 - 1000 micrograms, intranasal or sublingual; 50-500 micrograms, smoked (as freebase).

*Administration:* strictly parenteral.

*Duration:* 4-8 hours

Link to the N-Benzyl PEA Index - For compounds including all NBOMe's


Hi,

I got an ofter to buy a sample of new RC's 2-(4-chloro-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)-N-[(2-methoxyphenyl)methyl]ethanamine -  (25C-NBOMe)

Anybody have any kind of information regarding this compound, would be appreciate.

Here is the NMR ->



Thank you.


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## IAMWHY

Lawrence, do you have any other information on the chemical?  Or is this all you know/have?  

I wish I could tell you more (or, anything rather,) but I am interested myself.  I haven't seen anything like this in the past.


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## Lawrence

It's all I have. I can buy sample very expensive, look like its real potent.


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## StartedHydro

Just out of curiosity.... What do you guys/gals look it to see if something is potent?  Also can anyone direct me to a webpage that has good beginner level learning material to help understand stuff like this?

Thank you.


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## monstanoodle

I can only find info on 25*B*-NBOMe on Wiki, but I'd imagine it's similar (a 2C-B analogue).
That's active at around 400ng, so if it's anything near as potent I would be very careful.


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## dokomo

StartedHydro said:


> Just out of curiosity.... What do you guys/gals look it to see if something is potent?  Also can anyone direct me to a webpage that has good beginner level learning material to help understand stuff like this?
> 
> Thank you.



What you're looking for is organic chemistry. You can google for a lot of info but honestly, having taken the classes during my undergraduate degree I think it would be really difficult to self-teach from the Internet.


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## Bomboclat

It's Nichols NBOMe analogue of 2C-C I believe. Extremely potent, however only if taken intranasally if I remember correctly.

Correct me if i'm wrong, im going solely off of information from lab's who ive talked to regarding the synth of this product as well as chemists and RC enthusiasts. 

Id advise checking in ADD as there will definitely be more info on the NBOMe substances, if not this substance itself.


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## Cane2theLeft

This is probably better suited for PD so we'll try it there. 


--->PD


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## nearjat

monstanoodle said:


> I can only find info on 25*B*-NBOMe on Wiki, but I'd imagine it's similar (a 2C-B analogue).
> That's active at around 400ng, so if it's anything near as potent I would be very careful.



'ng'? Fucking nanograms? I would stay far away. Or fucking wear a respirator in a clean room when handing.


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## atara

nearjat said:


> 'ng'? Fucking nanograms? I would stay far away. Or fucking wear a respirator in a clean room when handing.



He means micrograms. And the chloro analog is probably slightly, but not much, more potent.


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## monstanoodle

Yes sorry. Can't seem to find the "mu" sign on my keyboard 
Still, be fucking careful! lol


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## Bomboclat

micrograms = µg


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## Xorkoth

Yeah, I think he indicated that he knows but he doesn't know how to type µ

(For the record, I just copied and pasted from Thizzer's post.  Mostly for the special characters I look up a character table on google and copy and paste.  I think there are keyboard combinations too but you need to know their ASCII or unicode values and know how to do it and so forth.


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## any major dude

I believe this is also known as NBOMe 2c-c.  Might have more luck searching with that name.  I recall reading some info on it not that long ago, may have been in the NBOMe Mescaline thread, but i'm not sure.  Supposedly its roughly the same potency as LSD.


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## Xorkoth

Any reports on how it is qualitatively anywhere that you know of?  I'm very curious to hear interpretations of what the trip is like.


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## ebola?

There's a report of it up on blacklight (or maybe the 2cb analogue).

ebola


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## nuke

Erny reported sampling this with a bunch of other people, with it active around 500-1000ug intranasal, duration about 8 hours.  Orally it seems to get munched uo by first pass metabolism (MAO-A, I'd guess).


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## Captain.Heroin

An analogue of 2c-C that's active in microgram dosages?  Fascinating.


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## mad_scientist

25C-NBOMe / NBOMe-2CC, threshold effects at as little as 0.05-0.1mg, but properly active at more like 0.2-0.5mg. Higher doses of 1mg+ produce amnesia and a burned-out comedown feeling for several days after, so there is little further benefit from doses much above 0.5mg. Convulsions have been reported from larger doses of several milligrams or more, so likely to be potentially dangerous for the inexperienced especially as raw powder.

Very clean and visual trip, but somewhat lacking in profound insights, light hearted but with little depth. Duration of strong effects is around 4-6 hours depending on dose, but with a milder afterglow extending the duration to perhaps 12 hours or so in total. Time to onset is around 15mins after nasal dosing, 1 hour for peak effects. Faster onset and shorter duration if vapourised, sublingual and rectal administration also effective, but oral activity produces only a bare threshold even with doses of 1mg+. 

Quite stimulating and euphoric, sometimes a hint of "candyflip" type effects but predominantly psychedelic, slightly reminiscent of 2CT2 or 2CT7. Also the bioavailability is weird and unpredictable, often several people will have what should be the same dose but have widely differing experiences, or the same dose taken on different occasions will seem quite different strengths. However this could easily be from measuring errors given the high potency, and hence small dosage...


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## Lawrence

Sounds good thanks all.


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## nomis

Sounds very promising!


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## Xorkoth

Big and Dandified this and added a link to the PD Index.


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## CatfishRivers

I should have some of this material soon. Can't wait to test it out! Supposed to be 2mg worth...I am guessing this will equal 3-4 experiences at around 500 micrograms each. I'm not sure exactly how I will go about dividing 2mg into 4 equal amounts for snorting tho, my scale will not go down that low accurately I am sure...still debating that in my head. Any ideas?


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## adrian89987

Maybe liquid measurement using some Kind of volatile solvent and then after measuring out the liquid you allow the solvent to evaporate leaving only the compound


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## CatfishRivers

adrian89987 said:


> Maybe liquid measurement using some Kind of volatile solvent and then after measuring out the liquid you allow the solvent to evaporate leaving only the compound



perfect suggestion. Thank you.


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## MagickalKat777

That's not a perfect suggestion since you don't know if you have 2mg to begin with... Even if its 3mg, that's still quite a large discrepancy. Be careful.


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## 8-12

Apparently it's _very_ strong at half a milligram insufflated. Be careful.


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## CatfishRivers

Will subdivide it down to a very low percentage of the original sample for the first attempt. Say, 1/12th instead of dividing to 4 like originally suggested. That way if the original sample is weighed incorrectly, and say it actually weighs up to 5 mg, then 1/12 equals around 0.42 mg, which according to the few things I've read at that dose is around a strong level experience. If it is not mis-weighed to begin with, then the effects are much more likely to be disappointing than dangerous. Is there a chance of it being mis-weighed by more than 3mg do you think? Maybe go down to 1/16th amounts instead to safer (6 mg/ 16 = 0.38mg)? My cheapo .001 scale _seems _to things right around 5mg and up. That's what I am basing my assumptions off of I guess...I'm hoping the sample sender's scale cost more than my $30 one...I guess I could be wrong on that.

thoughts?


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## MagickalKat777

Catfish, I would suggest being really careful. With the relative expense of this one, I don't think the source is going to be drastically screwing up in measurements... but you never know... I would see if you can find someone with a more accurate scale than you have.

I know I ordered 250mg of 5-MeO-AMT one time and upon weighing it, actually ended up with 334... quite a big difference.


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## Solipsis

I would think that the chloro analogue of 25B-etc would be slightly less potent, not slightly more - when looking at 2C-B and 2C-C. Not too sure about DOC vs DOB though.

And oh yeah you can type ug for microgram - it's accepted as a substitute for using the mu symbol.


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## MagickalKat777

mad_scientist said:


> 25C-NBOMe / NBOMe-2CC, threshold effects at as little as 0.05-0.1mg, but properly active at more like 0.2-0.5mg. Higher doses of 1mg+ produce amnesia and a burned-out comedown feeling for several days after, so there is little further benefit from doses much above 0.5mg. Convulsions have been reported from larger doses of several milligrams or more, so likely to be potentially dangerous for the inexperienced especially as raw powder.
> 
> Very clean and visual trip, but somewhat lacking in profound insights, light hearted but with little depth. Duration of strong effects is around 4-6 hours depending on dose, but with a milder afterglow extending the duration to perhaps 12 hours or so in total. Time to onset is around 15mins after nasal dosing, 1 hour for peak effects. Faster onset and shorter duration if vapourised, sublingual and rectal administration also effective, but oral activity produces only a bare threshold even with doses of 1mg+.
> 
> Quite stimulating and euphoric, sometimes a hint of "candyflip" type effects but predominantly psychedelic, slightly reminiscent of 2CT2 or 2CT7. Also the bioavailability is weird and unpredictable, often several people will have what should be the same dose but have widely differing experiences, or the same dose taken on different occasions will seem quite different strengths. However this could easily be from measuring errors given the high potency, and hence small dosage...



That sounds pretty intense... So its not malleable like 2C-C then I take it?

The potency of this one concerns me... Can you say more adulterated blotters? *sigh* Luckily it is way too pricey for that.


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## CatfishRivers

MagickalKat777 said:


> That sounds pretty intense... So its not malleable like 2C-C then I take it?
> 
> The potency of this one concerns me... Can you say more adulterated blotters? *sigh* Luckily it is way too pricey for that.



Isn't it not orally active? These doses I was under the assumption are listed for intranasal due to allthe NBOMe- chems being destroyed in the gut or something..


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## MagickalKat777

CatfishRivers said:


> Isn't it not orally active? These doses I was under the assumption are listed for intranasal due to allthe NBOMe- chems being destroyed in the gut or something..



Well blotter would technically be sublingual overall, wouldn't it? I know that when I've done blotter, while I don't put it under my tongue, my saliva takes it all there. LOL


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## CatfishRivers

good point


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## MagickalKat777

You could try this LOL
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...rIvrCKT7w&sig2=2Qck2YJplk8fbLveGQsnmQ&cad=rja


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## Wise_Owl

MagickalKat777 said:


> You could try this LOL
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...rIvrCKT7w&sig2=2Qck2YJplk8fbLveGQsnmQ&cad=rja



interesting..... has anyone tried this?


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## MagickalKat777

Here's two more:

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/equipment/scale.html

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/equipment/scale2.html


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## Ralf_4

i was over in the NBOMe-mescaline thread and someone said putting an NBOMe on the phenthylamine reduces anxiety and reduces nausea. having said this, would putting an NBOMe on 2c-e remove the bodyload and create a damn near perfect chem? also why are the nbomes only coming out so slowly were'nt they discovered in 2006? i was toying with the idea of NBOMe-MDMA as well...


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## stom10

Ralf_4 said:


> also why are the nbomes only coming out so slowly were'nt they discovered in 2006?



The synthesis is probably not trivial, and the market is definitely not as wide as for other RCs. Hell, it seems the 2Cs alone aren't gobbled up anything like MDPV, meph, etc. were.


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## MagickalKat777

If an NBOMe-MDMA came out, I'd jump all over it - before it and all the other NBOMe's were emergency scheduled a month later...


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## Wisoi

Have you guys read the NBOMe-phenethylamine concerned papers? An amphetamine (like MDMA) / alpha-methylated phenethylamine reduces activity to something around zero. Further, anything longer/bigger than an ethyl chain at the amine on MDA reduces activity to something around zero - not to mention the problems of activity loss from adding another functional group at the amine to MDMA. So that's a (theoretical) loser from any perspective.

@CatfishRivers... I would suggest liquid measurement for practical purposes.



Solipsis said:


> I would think that the chloro analogue of 25B-etc would be slightly less potent, not slightly more - when looking at 2C-B and 2C-C. Not too sure about DOC vs DOB though.


Erny elucidated this a few years ago here on bluelight.

I think putting such potent compounds out there available to the RC buying public of the internet is at least a tad reckless and probably a disaster waiting to happen.


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## MagickalKat777

I agree that this is most likely a disaster waiting to happen... But that's research chems for you...


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## invert

MagickalKat777 said:


> You could try this LOL
> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...rIvrCKT7w&sig2=2Qck2YJplk8fbLveGQsnmQ&cad=rja


That is actually rather intriguing. Looks pretty doable. But did anyone else think of 'A flask of weak lemon drink.' when they got to 'An empty aluminum soda can.'? [/Simon Quinlank, Prince of all Hobbies] No, just me?  

@mad_scientist: what is the source for the reports on convulsions? Do you have any more details? I ask because I've found plain old 2C-C (at >50mg oral doses) to produce pretty intense and high-amplitude shaking, particularly in the legs (also  at >100 mg oral DiPT, and one or two others sometimes); and I suppose one could describe such a reaction as convulsion-like. So I wonder whether this is the same sort of thing, or whether the nbome-2C-C is producing something more unmistakably a seizure, rather than  (in 2C-C)  what I suspect, based on subjective experience, is just relatively harmless 'motor psychedelia', as it were.


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## MagickalKat777

It should be interesting to see what happens with this one. I think the expense will keep the abuse potential pretty low... The fact that the site has been down for almost 10 hours now isn't very promising either.


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## CatfishRivers

MagickalKat777 said:


> It should be interesting to see what happens with this one. I think the expense will keep the abuse potential pretty low... The fact that the site has been down for almost 10 hours now isn't very promising either.



I don't think we're supposed to get to specific with vendor stuff here, but not every vendor who is offering this material is offering openly online at this point, in fact no legitimate ones that I am aware of are offering it for open sale as of yet, although this is likely to change.

I agree that the material can be a tricky one to work with due to the weighing of it being beyond most users' scales' ability to measure with accuracy coupled with it becoming so potent as to cause black outs around the 1+mg mark. I for one am going to take my time with this sample and make sure I am relatively sure I've taken every precaution I can before weighing and sampling. Feel free to offer any suggestions you might have as I doubt I am the only one who received a sample, and there will be others wanting to figure out a safe procedure to move forward as well.

Thanks for the input so far everyone


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## Ralf_4

sad to hear about no nbome-2c-e, havnt read the paper cos im not that good with chemistry but maybe a t-2 or t-7? would that work? tbf im all over the mesc one not too interested in all these ultra potent ones but the chance to eliminate bodyload on 2ce...well id certainly be a martyr for that cause!


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## 8-12

Ralf_4 said:


> sad to hear about no nbome-2c-e, havnt read the paper cos im not that good with chemistry but maybe a t-2 or t-7? would that work? tbf im all over the mesc one not too interested in all these ultra potent ones but the chance to eliminate bodyload on 2ce...well id certainly be a martyr for that cause!



If NBOMe 2C-E is a no-go then I would assume that T-2 and T-7, which would theoretically be even less potent, would be as well.

I'm interested in NBOMe 2C-F actually, I haven't heard much but there's a fair chance it would be active and fairly potent.

And what about the NBMD compounds (N-methylenedioxybenzyl)? NBOH?


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## Wisoi

8-12 said:


> If NBOMe 2C-E is a no-go then I would assume that T-2 and T-7, which would theoretically be even less potent, would be as well.
> 
> I'm interested in NBOMe 2C-F actually, I haven't heard much but there's a fair chance it would be active and fairly potent.
> 
> And what about the NBMD compounds (N-methylenedioxybenzyl)? NBOH?


Unfortunately, the NBOH's aren't much less potent than the NBOMe's. At least not enough to have a NBOH-2C-x that can be handled responsibly imo.

I think it would be interesting to see something like NBOMe-DOC and see it it is active around 10mg or more. I would hope the DOx versions would be active at some kind of "high" dose.


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## 8-12

Wisoi said:


> Unfortunately, the NBOH's aren't much less potent than the NBOMe's. At least not enough to have a NBOH-2C-x that can be handled responsibly imo.



I was thinking more in terms of recreational potential, dosage, experience, etc. rather than viability as commercial RCs, merely out of personal interest. If NBOMe-xxx is easily synthed by Chinese labs (which it probably won't be for at least a little while) then it'll inevitably and unfortunately become the next big thing regardless of the consumer's safety.



> I think it would be interesting to see something like NBOMe-DOC and see it it is active around 10mg or more. I would hope the DOx versions would be active at some kind of "high" dose.



NBOMe-DOB/I/C are supposedly active at the single-digit mg range and slightly less potent than DOx in general, which begs the question; why even bother to make them over plain DOx? I doubt they offer any legal safety, they're orally inactive, and there's no reason to believe they're any more interesting as psychedelics.

EDIT: Also NBOMe-DOx will have a longer onset, making them even less appealing.


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## pharmakos

i don't see anyone saying NBOMe-2C-E wouldn't work... anyone want to highlight the quote for me, if its there?  i've tried looking through several times...

oh, anything longer than an ethyl on the amine of MDA reduces activity, sure.  however, even a methyl on the amine of the 2C's and DOx's eliminates activity, but adding the NBOMe increase activity.  the 2C analogues of all the methylenedioxy amphetamines are inactive, correct?  what if adding the NBOMe and removing the methyl from things like MMDA actually increases activity?  names would be confusing... NBOMe-2C-MMDA-2   but i think there's a good chance they'll work!  they would probably be 5ht agonists rather than 5ht releasers however.  i think even NBOMe-MDPEA would have a chance at being active as a psychedelic...


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## 8-12

thenightwatch said:


> i don't see anyone saying NBOMe-2C-E wouldn't work... anyone want to highlight the quote for me, if its there?  i've tried looking through several times...



Now that you say that, I don't get why Ralf 4 said that (and I failed to question it). I don't think it would be as potent as the others, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be active.



> NBOMe-2C-MMDA-2



THAT's something I would love to try.



> NBOMe-MDPEA



I was thinking about this too, given that NBOMe 2C-H is active we can consider a lot of what we know about PEAs inapplicable to the NBOMes. And given NBOMe mescaline's potency (ie lack thereof) I don't think NBOMe MDPEA would be as hellishly potent as NBOMe 2C-x.


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## pharmakos

supposedly the main reason that a lot of phenethylamines aren't active while their amphetamine analogues are active is because the alpha-carbon protects the chemical from being chewed up by MAO.  the NBOMe protects the chemical from MAO.  so a lot of the inactive 2Cs might be active with the NBOMe attached.

its really interesting that NBOMe-2C-H is active... i thought there pretty much needed to be something in the 4-position for there to be activity.

also, this is kinda off-topic... 2C-H is supposedly chewed up by MAO and thus inactive, right?  why are other 2C's not chewed up by MAO?  how does the 4-position substituent protect them?

i gotta get back into school.  all my chemistry knowledge is from BL and PiHKAL.


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## mad_scientist

NBOMe-2CE has been made and tested and is similarly potent but described as a bit flat and boring, nowhere near as good as 2CE (whereas NBOMe-2CC is way better than 2CC in my opinion). 

NBOH-2CT7 has also been made and is active and potent, but no idea on subjective effects, or any other T- series derivatives.


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## Lawrence

I'm planing of trying 25C-NBOMe or 25D-NBOMe. I will dissolve 5mg in 5 ml of water then IV 100ug and see what happen. 

Do you have comment on this method of administration ?


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## Xorkoth

Just be sure to use sterile water for injection and proper filtering and stuff since you don't know if there are impurities.  And have a way to store the injectable solution safely so it doesn't go bad.

And be really careful... this is so brand new and unknown that I'd be really nervous to try IV.


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## CatfishRivers

Is there a reason why IM wouldn't be a better place to start? I mean that's how Strassman went about it in his DMT studies, starting with IM and then moving onto IV after it was determined that IM wasn't the best choice. I'd think it would be a bit safer, if perhaps not the best choice for the full effect. I haven't ever really worked with injecting anything though, so I am only commenting on things I've read.


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## Lawrence

*Snip*

If I don't IV how can I snort 500ug, even if a lets evap the solution, will the 500ug remain visible than I can snort it ?


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## invert

Lawrence said:


> If I don't IV how can I snort 500ug, even if a lets evap the solution, will the 500ug remain visible than I can snort it ?


I'd guess so. 500 ug isn't *that* tiny an amount of material (depending on density, of course). I mean it's small, but it's not invisible.


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## CatfishRivers

you could get one of those jeweler's eye pieces maybe. maybe even modify on with a permanent straw holder attachment


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## Xorkoth

Yeah, if you let it evaporate it will leave behind the 500ug.  You will be able to see it.  However, make sure to do it on a large plate of flat glass so you can scape up every bit with a razor blade.  It will be a very small amount of liquid (.5mL, right?) so it should be easy to contain in a small area of the glass.  It should evaporate pretty easily, maybe also try blowing a very light fan on it (but you don't want it to move or have any power blow away so maybe not).  If you try to evaporate it in a glass or something then you'll never get it all out.  It will most likely leave a really thin film of powder stuck to whatever surface it dries on which is why you need a mirror or glass of some sort and a razor blade.


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## pharmakos

another method would be to try sublingual absorption.  brush and mouthwash first to aid in absorption, then just swish the solution around your mouth for awhile.  should work fine, you might need to up the dose by a few tenths of a milligram though.


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## Xorkoth

In theory that should work, yes.  Most likely it will but you never know (unless we already have reports of it working of course).


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## pharmakos

Yeah that is true, thanks for pointing that out Xorky.  I think maybe one of the first NBOMe-2C-C reports from that other BLight forum was a sublingual trial though... however, they since changed their policies and I think I no longer have access to the forum that thread was in.  I can't find it in a search anyway.  Anyone know?


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## any major dude

Lawrence said:


> Here is the two vials
> 25C-NBOMe or 25D-NBOMe
> 
> If I don't IV how can I snort 500ug, even if a lets evap the solution, will the 500ug remain visible than I can snort it ?





I would make a nasal spray as to avoid the evaporation process, which could be imprecise.  Just make a 1mg/mL solution and put .5mL in a nasal spray bottle that's been cleaned out well, obviously, and use it like you would afrin or the like.  shouldn't be too hard to get .5mL up there.  And do tell how it turns out, this is a really interesting thread :D


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## eclipsedesign

^ +1
I was just about to suggest nasal spray


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## Bomboclat

any major dude said:


> I would make a nasal spray as to avoid the evaporation process, which could be imprecise.  Just make a 1mg/mL solution and put .5mL in a nasal spray bottle that's been cleaned out well, obviously, and use it like you would afrin or the like.  shouldn't be too hard to get .5mL up there.  And do tell how it turns out, this is a really interesting thread :D



Ill be joining in on this fun! I have a small sample headed my way, and cant wait to try it out.

Thanks everyone for the information and tips so far.


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## atara

thenightwatch said:


> also, this is kinda off-topic... 2C-H is supposedly chewed up by MAO and thus inactive, right?



I don't think this is the case. 2,5-DMA displays functional selectivity at the 5-ht2a receptor; it causes accumulation of inositol phosphate but does not stimulate the release of arachidonic acid:

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/321/3/1054.full
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/321/3/1054/F2.expansion.html

I would assume that arachidonic acid is a necessary component of the psychedelic experience. Shulgin states that 2,5-DMA was a boring stimulant, and I would assume that the removal of the alpha-methyl on 2,5-DMA causes the compound to lose it's stimulant activity and instead have no activity, even if it bypasses first-pass metabolism.


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## pharmakos

ah damn.  well there's been a lot of discussion on this board and elsewhere in the past fantasizing about making 2C-H active in combination with an MAO inhibitor.  glad to know the truth now, thanks sir.


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## islander20

Has anyone found any experience reports of 25C-NBOMe? Can't seem to find a thing out there


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## Bomboclat

There arent really any yet, just the ones in here (I believe there's one), and then one in ADD from another poster, though you'll have to dig for that one.


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## MattPsy

There are some on the dark side.
The first trial there was intranasal, 250ug, dispersed in inert carrier, but now also via vapourisation.


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## stom10

What's the policy on crossposting trip reports from 'that' site? I'd like to see some reports for general dosage info, especially if ~1mg can be bordering on physical harm.


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## Delsyd

I'd love to have some trip reports from there on here, with the authors permission.


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## MagickalKat777

"that" site?


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## TheAzo

I think it's unlikely that the 2C homologs of the empathogens will be empathogens as the NBOMe's. You need the alpha carbon to get the strong monoamine release that you'd need for an empathogen (serotonin release). 



MagickalKat777 said:


> "that" site?



Presumably a site that allows (or is dedicated to) sourcing and hence we're not allowed to name or link to.


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## Xorkoth

If those trip reports are part of the site you're referring to, then no.  If they're not though, then please do link to reports that there are.


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## MattPsy

The site does not allow crossposting. There are a lot of oversimplifications in this thread, but I suppose that's par for the course (not to be too disrespectrful; this site serves a different purpose). Empathogens based on the N-benzyl extensions of the PEA skeleton are very unlikely to be successful, for the simple reasons that there remains to be a high potency (on the order of milligrams, or even low tens of milligrams) empathogen developed, and hence the level of empathogenic activity will be be wildly unbalanced with the psychedelic activity, and empathogenic activity as we currently define it (MDMA-esque) depends on a wide range of simultaneous target activation that a ligand designed for specific activation of a specific target is going to be unable to accomplish (almost by definition - don't try to get a monogamous drug to be polygamous/promiscuous!), and finally because the N-benzyl moiety will interfere with the currently understood pharmacophore of empathogens (bits all hanging around in the wrong places).

Oh, I should probably confirm the dosages involved, since this stuff is about to hit primetime it would seem, for better or for worse (probably worse, people can't seem to use the existing 2Cxs and DOxs responsibly!) ...
Insufflated: threshold ~ 100ug, +2 @ 250ug, +3 @ >400ug
Vapourised, as HCl salt (freebase sometimes shows signs of decomposition if vapourising): threshold ~ 30ug, +2 @ 50ug, +3 @ 150ug. Reduced duration. Favourite method for author.
Oral: no appreciable activity past 1mg, 'ceiling' level is reached, probably pharmacokinetic in origin.

Repeated dosing past the 1hr mark seems to only increase duration and return intensity to first dose levels, not beyond, probably a function of very rapid receptor downregulation.


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## Xorkoth

Thanks for the post, MattPsy.   I wish more people with advanced knowledge would post here.


----------



## Swerlz

Christ this stuff doesn't sound that safe to the layman. Though I'm sure some of us can manage, I see the vast majority of people fucking this one up BADDD. Just look at the BrDfly-2cbfly incident that happened not too long ago.

tread lightly kids. Best to leave this beast alone.


----------



## nuke

What is the duration of this one?


----------



## SpecialK_

Sounds very interesting, but unfortunately due to the small dosing I reckon this is one I will stay away from until it is further discussed. But the effects sound promising.


----------



## Solipsis

So is the principal compound active itself or is it presumed a pro-drug. The fact that the NBOMe-moiety protects them from MAO breakdown means that it doesn't come off and it acts as is?

As for the question why exactly it is not broken down: the most likely reason is that the NBOMe presents some kind of steric hindrance to prevent being chewed up. MAO(-B?) is an enzyme that wants to kind of fold around the drug (monoamine..) molecule and cleave it at places, but it cant fit around it with that NBOMe group. Well thats my theory, it just seems more likely than some other kind of MAO inhibition.

I would be interested to hear about 25E-NBOMe and probably also 25D-NBOMe. I don't think 2C-D is any good, really, but being altered like this may boost it to make something special.
I shiver a bit thinking about 25P-NBOMe.


----------



## nuke

I'm pretty sure the n-benzyl-2-methoxy group is what causes it to be a substrate for whatever enzyme breaks it down in first pass metabolism...  The principle compound is well known to be a very strong active agonist with a high potency.  There must be some enzyme (probably present in the liver) that goes right for that secondary amine.  That, or administration inhibiton via first pass metabolism on the benzyl group (o-demethylation) facilitates such rapid excretion that it just never gets to the brain unless you bypass it.


----------



## atara

I _so_ want to try this.


----------



## MattPsy

nuke: Duration is about 5 hours peak effects, with up to another 5 in comedown, where you don't feel quite normal, but quite relaxed and chilled. For some reason, I can smoke a LOT more cannabis than I could normally, in this comedown state, and not really get very stoned. Pretty strange.


----------



## SpecialK_

MattPsy said:


> nuke: Duration is about 5 hours peak effects, with up to another 5 in comedown, where you don't feel quite normal, but quite relaxed and chilled. For some reason, I can smoke a LOT more cannabis than I could normally, in this comedown state, and not really get very stoned. Pretty strange.



Is it a comedown or more so the effects tapering off (readjusting)?


----------



## Lawrence

I didn't have the chance to try any NBOMe's yet.


----------



## IGNVS

does anyone have solubility information for the salts and freebase?


----------



## MattPsy

SpecialK_ said:


> Is it a comedown or more so the effects tapering off (readjusting)?



Both, it is expected that metabolism casues the O-desmethyl compound to be produced (ie. the 2-hydroxybenzyl), which while having similar Ki and EC50 (affinity and efficacy) may have different functional selectivity.
This has the end effect of not only the original drug decreasing in concentration but also forming a derivative drug that is less active than the parent, and probably competing for binding at the same target, producing a unique comedown.

Solubilities, sorry, don't have them, but the freebase doesn't dissolve in strongly polar or nonpolar solvents, definitely not water, acetone and IPA (middle of the road solvents), yes. HCl salt dissolves in water, i'll have to get back on you for actual figure.


----------



## Erny

I wonder, will people here continuie to post naive things and ask basic questions if i'll give them a direct link to the thread containing all the information they seek? Most probably the answer would be yes, but I would have to post the link anyway to see it myself.

Here is the link


----------



## CatfishRivers

Erny said:


> I wonder, will people here continuie to post naive things and ask basic questions if i'll give them a direct link to the thread containing all the information they seek? Most probably the answer would be yes, but I would have to post the link anyway to see it myself.
> 
> Here is the link



EDIT: what's better, naive and basic questions being asked? Or foolhardy exploration without knowing what one is getting into...? I'd rather the simple things get asked a bazillion times than people take undue risks...and I especially prefer that we all foster an environment where people feel welcome asking these sorts of questions. Bluelight is, after all, a harm reduction website.


----------



## Erny

It's fine, thank you, and I see that you also haven't read it yet. Web communities have a very short memory in general. And an attitude doesn't form from nothing, so please, don't try to offend me outright. We may remember it yet when the chemical will reach more users and the thread - page 5, if i'll be around. We will have the pleasure to retell what was written on page 4 and earlier, take your time.


----------



## CatfishRivers

Erny said:


> It's fine, thank you, and I see that you also haven't read it yet. Web communities have a very short memory in general. And an attitude doesn't form from nothing, so please, don't try to offend me outright. We may remember it yet when the chemical will reach more users and the thread - page 5, if i'll be around. We will have the pleasure to retell what was written on page 4 and earlier, take your time.



I'd just rather the people not get bullied by people with a greater understanding of something into not asking questions because they are intimidated, and as a result move forward in his/her experiment with false assumptions or incorrect knowledge. I'm glad you are here with your knowledge, but please, don't create an atmosphere where people will not ask questions. When people's lives are on the line, and they most certainly can be with some of these new chems active in the microgram range, wouldn't you agree it is in the interest of all to remove the attitude and allow for even the most naive of questions to be asked to help prevent any harm to the individual, and also to the community? I'd guess you'd agree to this since you've taken the time to share the information in the first place, and have even gone out of your way to post the link from ADD to PD. I'm just not understanding why the condescending attitude is necessary.


----------



## Lawrence

Do you have to start with 2C-C to end up with 25C-NBOMe's and how hard and expensive is to add the NBOMe's ?

how potent is NBOMe-Mescaline also ?


----------



## tryp2fun

Lawrence said:


> Do you have to start with 2C-C to end up with 25C-NBOMe's and how hard and expensive is to add the NBOMe's ?



If you have to ask this question, the answer is yes, it is too hard for you.


----------



## islander20

*Trip Report*

Just dosed this last night for the first time, I found it quite enjoyable and intriguing. The timeline goes something like this:

0 - Dosed ~325ug sublingually. I am confident this is accurate within +-25ug. No taste to speak of. Slight numbing effect reported by partner.

+0:30 - First alerts. Slight stimulation, can feel perception altering.

+1:00 - Intensity is slowly increasing. Music sounds very good, visuals are much brighter, colourful and vivid. Very easy on the body, some stimulation which must be managed, no nausea though. Much more benign than the 2C-X's.

+2:20 - Euphoria is increasing, full on psychedelic inebriation. At a solid +2, flirting with a +3 at times. Stimulation and visuals are increasing.

+2:30 - Effects continue to increase in intensity. Think to myself that this would be great for partying, I want to go out and socialize. Something which is quite strange since I generally would never want to do that when I am tripping. 

A mild empathogen quality seems to be present, my partner and I discuss some issues which have been troubling us, leading to the resolution of said issues. Also sense of touch is greatly increased, texture feels incredible. I am wishing I had the furry walls I just saw in get him to the greek. 

+2:40 - Smoked some cannabis. Goes along quite nicely with this. We decide to go on a walk in the woods, there is an intense windstorm going on and it is quite an amazing experience in this state. Watching the trees bend like spaghetti is quite an experience. 

Throughout this walk there is no paranoia, if anything a sense of confidence has been added. Generally when I am tripping and smoking cannabis I would be very uncomfortable out in public having to communicate with people and so on. 

Eventually we come to a large fallen tree and decide that perhaps this was not the greatest idea. We hurry home and get out of the rain.

Cannabis was consumed throughout the experience, which lasted for around 8-10 hours. About a 2 hour long come up followed by a 3-4 hour plateau and then a gradual come down. Sleep was easily achieved ten hours later, though im sure the large amount of cannabis helped this. 

This dose was a solid +2, for my next trial I will take 500ug, perhaps via plugging.


----------



## Delsyd

thanks for the report.
ive been looking forward to seeing more of these show up.

have you ever tried 2c-c? how does it compare?


----------



## islander20

I have tried 2C-C, though only once at 35mg. To be honest this felt more like a DOX to me, it was fairly stimulating, though in a very nice way. I don't feel like I am capable of judging this at the moment though, as I was only at a +2 and didn't get to experience the full effects of this drug.


----------



## any major dude

thanks for the trip report islander.  I'm going to get some of this the next time i can justify spending some money on weird chems... went on a bit of a shopping spree as of late


----------



## polaroid

what do you guys think about using valium for coming down and sleep?


----------



## islander20

I think it would be fine, I didn't need anything to sleep though, and usually I have a benzo at the end of a trip.


----------



## CatfishRivers

thanks for the report! I should have one soon to add also...


----------



## any major dude

CatfishRivers said:


> thanks for the report! I should have one soon to add also...



Sweet, enjoyed reading your NBOMe-Mescaline reports.  

Also, islander20, what was your method for sublingual dosing, liquid?  Powder?


----------



## egor

Anyone else disconcerted by the sudden easy availability of the NBOMe 2c's? If the meph generation gets a hold of them, the results could be disastrous...


----------



## atara

Ordered summa dis. Expect a trip report in the next week or so.


----------



## any major dude

egor said:


> Anyone else disconcerted by the sudden easy availability of the NBOMe 2c's? If the meph generation gets a hold of them, the results could be disastrous...



i don't think this is something meph kids would consider buying.  It doesn't appear to be speedy or effortlessly euphoric, its kind of expensive, and isn't marketed as a replacement for a legal drug, or really marketed at all for that manner.  I don't see it catching on with lots of people as its not orally active (which is good b/c it would make it difficult to pass off as something else.)

Granted I could be wrong, and if so god help us all, but this seems like more of a niche psychedelic.


----------



## egor

I hope you're right


----------



## pharmakos

if "mephedrone" were sold as "a,n,4-trimethyl-b-ketophenethylamine" or whatever, i doubt it would have been as popular.  i have my doubts about this becoming popular with the *-drone-kids.


----------



## islander20

I put my solution onto blotter paper then let that sit in my mouth for about 15 minutes. Before this I brushed my teeth thoroughly.


----------



## skunkjar

CatfishRivers said:


> thanks for the report! I should have one soon to add also...



What he said.  A report should be posted within 2 weeks.


----------



## Solipsis

Not really on-topic but I saw there is a NBOMe version of TCB-2 a.k.a 2CBCB (2C-B CycloButane analogue) which is extremely potent in itself.
The NBOMe version of that: 2CBCB-NBOMe must be ridiculously (dangerously) potent. Even significantly more than LSD. That's all logically derived theory though, it might very well not follow those rules of extrapolation.

But damn imagine if it does!! I don't know what the hell we would do with it, but just the thought of it existing is pretty exciting I guess.


----------



## CatfishRivers

Solipsis said:


> Not really on-topic but I saw there is a NBOMe version of TCB-2 a.k.a 2CBCB (2C-B CycloButane analogue) which is extremely potent in itself.
> The NBOMe version of that: 2CBCB-NBOMe must be ridiculously (dangerously) potent. Even significantly more than LSD. That's all logically derived theory though, it might very well not follow those rules of extrapolation.
> 
> But damn imagine if it does!! I don't know what the hell we would do with it, but just the thought of it existing is pretty exciting I guess.



1 dose to trip the whole planet at once lol weeeeeeee!


----------



## Solipsis

Haha then you have a warped definition of 'dose', my friend. :D


----------



## any major dude

Solipsis said:


> Not really on-topic but I saw there is a NBOMe version of TCB-2 a.k.a 2CBCB (2C-B CycloButane analogue) which is extremely potent in itself.
> The NBOMe version of that: 2CBCB-NBOMe must be ridiculously (dangerously) potent. Even significantly more than LSD. That's all logically derived theory though, it might very well not follow those rules of extrapolation.
> 
> But damn imagine if it does!! I don't know what the hell we would do with it, but just the thought of it existing is pretty exciting I guess.



dilute it to homeopathic proportions


----------



## invert

any major dude said:


> dilute it to homeopathic proportions


Heh. Fantastic idea! A chemical so powerful that even homeopathic dilution couldn't stop it from being an effective drug. :D I (irrationally) fear that such a potent drug could affect us all just by existing in the same universe as us. 

But really, a homeopathic dilution could only be effective (at, say, mescaline sized doses of several hundreds of milligrams of the diluted substance) if it were about 10000000000000000000 times more potent than LSD prior to dilution.


----------



## MagickalKat777

jesus just breathing in the same room as that drug would scare me. :O


----------



## ebola?

> The NBOMe version of that: 2CBCB-NBOMe must be ridiculously (dangerously) potent.



We don't know, as the SAR is way different with the NBOMe substitution: 2cs are more potent with the substitution than without, but then the most potent of the 2C-halo-NBOMes is the 2C-C derivative, and the least, 2CI, which is opposite of the pattern of potencies for the unsubstituted 2Cs.  And then the NBOMe substitution reduces psychedelic amphetamines' potencies.  So who knows...

ebola


----------



## invert

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2CBCB-NBOMe gives (sourced, but I've not checked the source) "a Ki of 0.27nM at the human 5-HT2A receptor, a similar potency to other agonists such as TCB-2, NBOMe-2C-I and bromodragonfly" for 2CBCB-NBOMe.


----------



## Solipsis

Source is probably from Nichols / Purdue group's work isn't it?


----------



## invert

Solipsis said:


> Source is probably from Nichols / Purdue group's work isn't it?


Yeah, I just haven't checked that the claim on the wikipedia page matches the data in the paper it's sourced from.  

*attempts to check it* Ah, okay, it's a PhD thesis, not a paper... that makes it a bit trickier to check. *tries various access methods* Hmm, well I don't think I have access to it.


----------



## any major dude

islander20 said:


> I put my solution onto blotter paper then let that sit in my mouth for about 15 minutes. Before this I brushed my teeth thoroughly.



thanks for the info.  So that worked pretty well then?



MagickalKat777 said:


> jesus just breathing in the same room as that drug would scare me. :O



yeah, i'm a tad nervous about handling this one as well, but want to try something new, so I may.... still debating it though.



Solipsis said:


> Source is probably from Nichols / Purdue group's work isn't it?



I believe so.  Regardless, they were the first to start tacking NBOMe onto various PEA's.


----------



## atara

Solipsis said:


> Not really on-topic but I saw there is a NBOMe version of TCB-2 a.k.a 2CBCB (2C-B CycloButane analogue) which is extremely potent in itself.
> The NBOMe version of that: 2CBCB-NBOMe must be ridiculously (dangerously) potent. Even significantly more than LSD. That's all logically derived theory though, it might very well not follow those rules of extrapolation.


Its Ki isn't much lower than 25B's. It's similar to the combination of carfentanil and 3-methylfentanyl, which gives you lofentanil: the increase from carfentanil to lofentanil is not as big as the increase from fentanyl to 3-methylfentanyl.

I would like to see an NBOMe-Jimscaline, just on the off-chance it shares the magic of mescaline at a significantly increased potency.


----------



## any major dude

now there's an idea.  though i'd like to try jimscaline proper first...


----------



## nuke

The real gem from this series in terms of potency is most likely 2-(4-Chloro-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)-N-[(2,3-methylenedioxyphenyl)methyl]ethanamine...  The iodinated derivate is quite a bit more potent in terms of affinity than even LSD at the 5HT2A receptor.


----------



## Solipsis

Ah yes I encountered that one, the 25X-NBMD 'series' ?
What I was wondering - if I may turn this thread into ADD for a minute - is if it would be expected that this molecule functions as a sort of dimer of 2C-X and MDMA. If I am not mistaken seen from the right the complete skeleton is in there right? So is it not equally MDMA with a 2C-X moiety as well as the other way around?
edit: oops no I see that that it's missing a beta carbon... what about if it had that:

2-(4-Halo-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)-N-[(2,3-methylenedioxyphenyl)*ethyl*]ethanamine


----------



## atara

Solipsis said:


> Ah yes I encountered that one, the 25X-NBMD 'series' ?
> What I was wondering - if I may turn this thread into ADD for a minute - is if it would be expected that this molecule functions as a sort of dimer of 2C-X and MDMA.



Problem: even if it were metabolized to MDMA, that adds up to a whopping 30 micrograms of MDMA per dose. Not gonna do much.

And there aren't enough carbons there for the whole MDMA "skeleton".


----------



## MattPsy

any major dude said:


> I believe so.  Regardless, they were the first to start tacking NBOMe onto various PEA's.



Not so, not so. There is a thesis by a German fellow, as well. Already been mentioned in this or the thread linked to by Erny. It's even referenced on the Wikipedia page (see below). Perhaps people don't read, afterall  .

invert: "Ah, okay, it's a PhD thesis, not a paper... that makes it a bit trickier to check. *tries various access methods* Hmm, well I don't think I have access to it. "

You do realise that the Wikipedia page(s) about these compounds link directly to the access page for the sections of that very thesis, right? And that they open if you simply then click on the link of the section you wish to read? No special access required.


----------



## invert

MattPsy said:


> You do realise that the Wikipedia page(s) about these compounds link directly to the access page for the sections of that very thesis, right? And that they open if you simply then click on the link of the section you wish to read? No special access required.


D'oh! :D It was my browser blocking cookies that was preventing it from opening. Cheers!


----------



## pharmakos

eh, the stuff on the "other" side of the nitrogen is pretty different from MDMA.






the methyl connecting the methylenedioxyphenyl to the nitrogen would have to be extended to a longer chain, as you said.  to make it truly an MDMA molecule over there, however, the methyl would have to be extended to an isopropyl, and the methylenedioxy would have to be moved one position further away from that isopropyl, to the 3,4 position i believe.


----------



## ebola?

SAR speculation on n-BOMe-3,4-MDPEA:

IIRC, the expectation is that this should be an active compound, the n- substitution throwing a wrench into the prohibitively rapid metabolism of MDPEA.  On the other hand, because this n-substitution doesn't seem to drastically enhance affinity for SERT, but enhances affinity for 5ht2a by a great deal, maybe we'd have more of a classical psychedelic, without entactogenesis. 

So would this be barking up the wrong tree, an unknown tree, or a promising tree?

ebola


----------



## pharmakos

as always, it's an unknown tree until someone actually finds an active level of the stuff.


----------



## atara

ebola? said:


> SAR speculation on n-BOMe-3,4-MDPEA:
> 
> IIRC, the expectation is that this should be an active compound, the n- substitution throwing a wrench into the prohibitively rapid metabolism of MDPEA.  On the other hand, because this n-substitution doesn't seem to drastically enhance affinity for SERT, but enhances affinity for 5ht2a by a great deal, maybe we'd have more of a classical psychedelic, without entactogenesis.
> 
> So would this be barking up the wrong tree, an unknown tree, or a promising tree?
> 
> ebola



The methylenedioxy substitution seems to do other interesting things besides 5ht release. In particular, MMDA-2 has very low SERT affinity but still displays MDA-like effects, with Shulgin saying "it would be impossible for anyone at this level, on this compound, to have a bad experience".

So a promising tree.


----------



## ebola?

_Off-topic:_
Another experiment for close auto-supervision is mdpea + inhibition of mao-b.


----------



## nuke

Solipsis said:


> Ah yes I encountered that one, the 25X-NBMD 'series' ?
> What I was wondering - if I may turn this thread into ADD for a minute - is if it would be expected that this molecule functions as a sort of dimer of 2C-X and MDMA. If I am not mistaken seen from the right the complete skeleton is in there right? So is it not equally MDMA with a 2C-X moiety as well as the other way around?
> edit: oops no I see that that it's missing a beta carbon... what about if it had that:
> 
> 2-(4-Halo-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)-N-[(2,3-methylenedioxyphenyl)*ethyl*]ethanamine



No, not at all really...  It's mostly just a really high affinity 5HT2A ligand.  If you extend the carbon chain, my guess is the activity will go down, but I'm not completely sure.  It's probably best left as is if you're looking for potency.


----------



## Erny

nuke said:


> The real gem from this series in terms of potency is most likely 2-(4-Chloro-2,5-dimethoxyphenyl)-N-[(2,3-methylenedioxyphenyl)methyl]ethanamine...  The iodinated derivate is quite a bit more potent in terms of affinity than even LSD at the 5HT2A receptor.


Iodinated derivative is much less active than usual 2-methoxybenzyl, but chloro may still be nice, for a different reason. 2,3-NBMD-2C-I seem to retain all the qulities of the 2-methoxy derivative, which is quite behind all of them, chloro, bromo, alkyls, etc, and is the most enjoable of them all for many people. Dose range for 2,3-NBMD-2C-C would also be somewhat higher I guess, making it easier to dose - measuring 500 or 300 mcg is painful. And NBOMe-2C-C is also not among the worst, so I'd expect NBMD-2C-C to be nearly the same thing, yet easier to handle.


----------



## Erny

CatfishRivers said:


> I'd just rather the people not get bullied by people with a greater understanding of something into not asking questions because they are intimidated, and as a result move forward in his/her experiment with false assumptions or incorrect knowledge. I'm glad you are here with your knowledge, but please, don't create an atmosphere where people will not ask questions. When people's lives are on the line, and they most certainly can be with some of these new chems active in the microgram range, wouldn't you agree it is in the interest of all to remove the attitude and allow for even the most naive of questions to be asked to help prevent any harm to the individual, and also to the community? I'd guess you'd agree to this since you've taken the time to share the information in the first place, and have even gone out of your way to post the link from ADD to PD. I'm just not understanding why the condescending attitude is necessary.


It's all fine, but I fear you may have to do so in my absence, I may just vanish from here for something like half a year, as it happened before. And don't feel like willing to spend my lifetime answering such questions in general. I just hope bluelight community will be able to make good use of information it has already.


----------



## atara

Eye-dropped 250 micrograms under my tongue as a 1 mg/ml solution about five minutes ago. I'm still wondering if I did it right, 'cuz I always think I'm screwing up sublingual dosing. First thoughts: this stuff is _sour_, though maybe that's just the residual toothpaste flavor.

It doesn't taste DOx bitter, though.

EDIT: Some teeth-clench feeling that is almost surely non-placebo.


----------



## Lawrence

atara said:


> Eye-dropped 250 micrograms under my tongue as a 1 mg/ml solution about five minutes ago. I'm still wondering if I did it right, 'cuz I always think I'm screwing up sublingual dosing. First thoughts: this stuff is _sour_, though maybe that's just the residual toothpaste flavor.
> 
> It doesn't taste DOx bitter, though.



And after what happens ? What kind of solution did you use ?


----------



## atara

Lawrence said:


> And after what happens ? What kind of solution did you use ?



I am, or should be, coming up, as we speak. I think I did it right. Um. Sublingual dosing liquids is confusing, I think I only managed to hold it there for like three minutes whereas LSD I usually go for ten.

EDIT: If this is the effect, it's the most sedating psychedelic I've ever had. Though, that list only counts a few, and I've tended towards things like 2C-I in the past.


----------



## psykap

Maybe you try higher dose? Did you had  more effects?


----------



## islander20

It is a very relaxed stimulation, reminiscent of 2C-C. Makes sense. I found 300ug to be a bit to low for my tastes, eagerly waiting to try a high dose.


----------



## Lawrence

To what we can compare the OEV ? Would you say that 25C are more enjoyable then most 2c-x are ? No body load and euphoria look great for a Psy.


----------



## islander20

I can't really say yet, once I try a higher dose I will report back. The visuals were different than 2C-x's , more so like a DOX. Colours were very sharp, wood grain lept out at me, no morphing going on. I was very sociable and eager to interact with people, something which is out of character for me. But yes there was absolutely no body load.


----------



## atara

psykap said:


> Maybe you try higher dose? Did you had  more effects?



Nah. I'm pretty sure I messed up the sublingual dosing, 'cuz the solution was too dilute. Basically, the acid taste made me salivate kinda heavily, and I accidentally swallowed a lot of it at the three minute mark.

Still, made it up to a solid + that continued for around six hours, so I figure I absorbed around 100 ug. I'll be giving it another shot "soon". I, too, became pretty social, and this continued even after the more noticeable aspects of the trip subsided.


----------



## any major dude

So what's been the most effective sublingual dosing method for you guys thus far?  The liquid seems to be a bit problematic, the amount of actual material is difficult to weigh without a microgram balance, so blotter i suppose?


----------



## MagickalKat777

Its not hard to get a sub-milligram or even semi-microgram balance on eBay. I just got my SI-234 and it registers as little as 100mcg being placed on it... 162 on eBay. I screwed up on another auction for a 10mcg balance - it sold for like 220 and my max bid was 200 and I didn't catch it in time.

Anyway, these potent compounds still scare me even with a scale that's accurate to +/- .1mg for liquid dosing. Though it sounds like they really aren't that easy to dose...


----------



## any major dude

good to know.  I'd be a bit wary of an ebay sub-milligram scale, but i'm sure there are some reliable ones available.  May look into that the next time i've got spare cash for some toys 

Also, how well does redosing work with 25C-NBOMe?  If i were to take ~200µg and then say 2hrs later ~300µg would that most likely extend the effects of the 200µg dose or ratchet up the intensity a notch or two?


----------



## MagickalKat777

any major dude said:


> good to know.  I'd be a bit wary of an ebay sub-milligram scale, but i'm sure there are some reliable ones available.  May look into that the next time i've got spare cash for some toys



These are used analytical balances. The one I got, the Denver Instrument SI-234, even has an automatic calibration... Sliding glass panels for sides and top... and RS-232 interface as well. This scale costs over 2300 brand new... What's happening is in order to maintain compliance with government standards, labs have to replace their scales every so often, even if there is nothing wrong with them, so they end up on eBay and go cheap. We're not talking about cheapie China fare... As a matter of fact, DI makes all their scales in Germany.


----------



## mad_scientist

any major dude said:


> Also, how well does redosing work with 25C-NBOMe?  If i were to take ~200µg and then say 2hrs later ~300µg would that most likely extend the effects of the 200µg dose or ratchet up the intensity a notch or two?



Not very well at all, it seems like it desensitises the receptors fairly quickly after the initial dose, and later doses will extend duration but not really increase potency - to the point that a 300µg dose a few hours after a tiny 50µg taster will be substantially weaker than if you just had the 300µg by itself.


----------



## atara

I love this goddamn drug. Pretty clean feeling, no negative bodyload at all. I got nauseous after drinking coffee at +2.5h, but there was no nausea before drinking coffee so I'm just going to blame caffeine. This is pretty much nothing like any 2C I've taken.

The only visuals to speak of on this one are open-eyed; closing your eyes basically stops the trip. Every now and then I will think I've come down, but I'm still easily at a plus two just based on how confusing and profound it is to do even simple things. Music sounds awesome.

Um... and some latent psychological issues seem to have shown themselves, which is not bad at all (I'm not going crazy!) but it would also make writing a half-decent trip report extremely awkward. Somehow I'm in a state where none of these crazy realizations bother me and everything still feels pretty good. From how I've heard MMDA-2 described, this seems kinda similar. I can say that it would be very hard at this dosage, on this compound, for anyone to have a bad experience. Even if they were to take it and realize why they haven't felt like themself for the past year or so, it would somehow not make them unhappy. Amazing.

(oh, and, don't take this one inside. it won't scare you, it'll just make everything boring. i'm a herp derp fucking retard who took it on a day when he had to work in a laboratory and just kept wishing he could exit the building.)


----------



## IGNVS

sorry, what dosage are you talking about? 300 still? but taken right? 
have you tried smoking it yet? will you :D 
also, could you describe the nature of the visuals? did it give you a body 'high' etc...

thanks  this series of compounds is extremely interesting to me and the community


----------



## atara

I'm really the last person to ask about visuals. I never seem to get them as strongly as anyone else, so a dose I find to be "not very visual" will, to other people, be extremely visual. I will say that there are no _closed_ eye visuals at all, unlike 2Cs. This drug is an open-eyed one. There are noticeable, entertaining distortions.

EDIT: Fuck this comedown. Gah. No longer tripping, but I cannot think in sentences.


----------



## stom10

atara, what was your dose for that last trip? I may have to see about picking some of this up... 

Does anyone know what the stability of these compounds is like? Would breakdown products include 2C-C (assuming N-debenyzloxylation or whatever the hell the process would be can even occur)?


----------



## atara

stom10 said:


> atara, what was your dose for that last trip? I may have to see about picking some of this up...
> 
> Does anyone know what the stability of these compounds is like? Would breakdown products include 2C-C (assuming N-debenyzloxylation or whatever the hell the process would be can even occur)?



Should be quite stable. No chiral carbons, no alkene linkages, and no obvious points of instability (debenzylation happens in the presence of reducing agents, e.g. formate, not oxidizing agents, e.g. hypochlorite; reducing agents are rare in an atmosphere as corrosive as ours).

Total dose was 450 micrograms: 350 sublingual (as powder), 100 intranasal (as liquid). Reason for the odd dosing is that I still didn't feel like sublingual took properly, and with any dose as tiny as 350 micrograms that's just how things work.

All told: +2 within 30m, +3 within an hour, lasted until the five or six hour mark. The pleasantness of the stuff stays around until the eight or nine hour point, after which I had (am having) some residual stimulation and a general uneasiness, though I was no longer tripping in any way. Maybe I just drank too much coffee today (I drank way more than usual for some odd reason).


----------



## Solipsis

I am really thinking about ordering a sample of this and using the volumetric method much later on when my experiments get picked up again, sublingual absorption seems like the best method to me and at this point the chloro NBOMe-2C seems better to me than the methyl (D) or mescaline ones. I heard the mescaline analogue is disappointing.
Got some money in an internet wallet of almost exactly the right amount and the dollar is sagging like a tit anyway.

Didnt want you to only construe this as a bump, but I was indeed also concerned about the stability even though the PEAs in general are quite stable. Even decomposition to 2C-C would be wasteful. And storing it in solution is not ideal either for stability while it is almost completely necessary for safe dosing.


----------



## atara

I don't know of any serious degradation pathways for this one. It might react with nitrite to form the n-nitrosamine, like other benzylic amines, but the dosage is so tiny that it doesn't present any carcinogenic concern, and it will be mostly absorbed before it can react.

LSD degrades in three ways: inversion at the two chiral carbons (5 and 8), and addition to the double bond by water or chlorine.


----------



## MagickalKat777

I've decided that I am going to give this one a shot when I have the money... from some accounts it is euphoria like MDMA and a trip comparable to LSD but lighter on the mind, heavy on the visual, which is what I enjoy. My .1mg scale should be enough to get a good dose since it seems like 500ug is the dose and 1mg is the overdose - my scale is +/- 100ug...


----------



## proxopata

you  say its not  effective orally ? i can get blotters with 250mcg. are they worth ?


----------



## skillet

Well I guess that depends on the price, but you should be able to take it sublingually on blotter.


----------



## psykap

My two friends took  250 mcg yesterday , they was very glad with effects ,
it was their second experience with psychedelics , main effects that they noticed :
-Brightens colors
-Relaxing activity
-Strong euphoria 
-Medium visual effects 
Bodyload was very light , slight nausea
I think that is good dose for people whos start your adventure with psychedelic ,
tommorow Im going to take 370 mcg , see ya


----------



## invert

Must try my sample soon. It's sounding like it might be kind of close to 2C-C effects, of which I am quite a fan,  but with longer duration (is that right?) and roughly 100 times the potency. The reports of confusion I've heard of at higher doses (c. 1 mg) make it sound like it may become dissociative (or something like that) in higher doses, which has also been reported with higher (c. 100 mg) doses of 2C-C.


----------



## atara

This stuff is pretty dose sensitive. 550 micrograms, insufflated, was extremely intense.


----------



## MagickalKat777

invert said:


> Must try my sample soon. It's sounding like it might be kind of close to 2C-C effects, of which I am quite a fan,  but with longer duration (is that right?) and roughly 100 times the potency. The reports of confusion I've heard of at higher doses (c. 1 mg) make it sound like it may become dissociative (or something like that) in higher doses, which has also been reported with higher (c. 100 mg) doses of 2C-C.



I haven't personally done it but everyone I've talked to said that it was much more visual than 2C-C could ever dream to be and the euphoria was one of the best non-MDMA euphorias in existence.


----------



## invert

MagickalKat777 said:


> I haven't personally done it but everyone I've talked to said that it was much more visual than 2C-C could ever dream to be and the euphoria was one of the best non-MDMA euphorias in existence.


Okay... hard to compare subjective intensities, of course, but in that sounds like 2C-C-but-more-so. Many reports of 2C-C are in a dosage range I personally found mostly uninteresting (30-50 mg); I found 2C-C pretty interestingly visual at doses in the 70-100 mg range, and certainly very nicely euphoric (I would rate the 2C-C euphoria as one of the best non-MDMA euphorias I've encountered), as well as deeply psychedelic and perhaps slightly dissociative.


----------



## MagickalKat777

Yeah I rather enjoy high doses of 2C-C but unfortunately can not get it for the cost I was getting pre-WebTryp... its about 4 times the price now at the cheapest place I found unless I buy in bulk... which I guess I could do.


----------



## Thanatos

8-12 said:


> Now that you say that, I don't get why Ralf 4 said that (and I failed to question it). I don't think it would be as potent as the others, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be active.
> 
> 
> 
> THAT's something I would love to try.



I have on very good word the 25E-NBOMe and 25T-4-NBOMe will be out for purchase very soon.


----------



## Thanatos

^ I'm sorry I was refering to him saying the ethyl analog would be inactive.


----------



## MagickalKat777

Yes I have it on good authority as well. I am curious as to whether T-4-NBOMe will maintain the weird qualities T-4 had. I sure hope not.


----------



## atara

MagickalKat777 said:


> I haven't personally done it but everyone I've talked to said that it was much more visual than 2C-C could ever dream to be and the euphoria was one of the best non-MDMA euphorias in existence.



I'd say you've heard right.


----------



## Dr Mamba

Am sure most of the testers knows LSD, and some DOX, could you compare the trip to thoses, as it seems it can hardly be compared to 2CX ?


----------



## atara

There was a stronger ego death than LSD at the 550 microgram level. At lower levels, there was none at all. It takes about 10 minutes to become noticeable and you're peaking by 45 minutes. Peak lasts 3-4 hours, though I continued to see and feel distortions for another six hours or so.


----------



## any major dude

can't wait to try this one...  Whats a good 1st dose 225-250mcg or 300-350?


----------



## psykap

T:00 I am taking 500 mcg sublingual , my girlfriend 250 mcg into vagina ;p 
T:0.30 We are feeling first effects , slight stimulation , very strange mood , bodyload is very light something like LSD .
T:1.00 The effects are increasing , 
T:2.00 we are on the peak and we're feeling very emotional opening, empathy , very strong euphoria (similar to MDx) and stimulation to do something crazy and creative stuff, colours are quite bright and pastel. The dominant colour is pink and I can see something like rainbow aureoles around the street lights. CEVs aren't very strong but they resembling floral motive (fractals looks like small flowers to me), OEVs are quite light, imperceptible. We can see fractals only at grainy textures (like sand, pavement and some walls). The feeling of clear mind and I think that's all.  
Peak lasts  something 5 h , afterglow 4 -5 h , we drunk some beers and we didn't have any troubles with falling asleep.

I noticed that my girlfriend had stronger effect than me , Thats all


----------



## Dr Mamba

Thanks for the TR 
So you could sleep at H+2+5+4=H+11h ?
So its not the most visual chemical, do you think increasing dose to the point you get real visuals would be a to much dose?


----------



## psykap

I dont know , Im afraid to take higher  doses  , i don't want to overdose  but I am wondering if higher dose ,  for exmaple 750 mcg, causes  stronger   visual changes. At first Im going to take the same amount, but this time intranasally , I wanna check ,is such method of administration will be better than sublingual method .
Yes we felt asleep  after 10-11 h .


----------



## Aleph

I have not tried the NBOMe, but the trips I read remind me incredibly  my experiences with BDFLY.


----------



## atara

Waaaaay shorter than Bromo-DragonFLY. I took 250 micrograms at 7 last night and went to sleep at 3.

This stuff goes quite well with weed, and weed makes it go from not-so-visual to _incredibly visual_, though the presence of bass may have helped.



> I wanna check ,is such method of administration will be better than sublingual method .


Insufflation is significantly more potent than sublingual with this one, or my tongue is messed up. 250 mcg insufflated last night had me quite gone whereas the same dose sublingual did shit-all.


----------



## Delsyd

MagickalKat777 said:


> ...from some accounts it is euphoria like MDMA and a trip comparable to LSD but lighter on the mind...



8) how many times have we heard that before?

Dont take descriptions like that too seriously as they usually come from people not experienced with a wide variety of psychedelics.
Ive heard so many 2c's described that same way yet they are all pretty different from each other.


----------



## Aleph

atara said:


> I took 250 micrograms at 7 last night and went to sleep at 3.


BDFLY to 240 micrograms lasts me 6 hours. When testing the NBOMe I can compare more accurately, as each person is different.


----------



## Solipsis

Is 2-methylanisole a breakdown byproduct of the NBOMe phenethylamines and if so, is this no cause for concern?


----------



## MagickalKat777

Delsyd said:


> 8) how many times have we heard that before?
> 
> Dont take descriptions like that too seriously as they usually come from people not experienced with a wide variety of psychedelics.
> Ive heard so many 2c's described that same way yet they are all pretty different from each other.



I agree but this isn't a 2C... This is a 2C that has been turned into its crack form. LOL!

I don't know, I'm curious about it but it intimidates me a bit... especially the 500mcg ego death part...


----------



## Delsyd

that description is still not something i would take seriously.
How about it is visual and has entactogen properties.


----------



## MagickalKat777

Well I found high dose 2C-C to have euphoria greatly comparable to MDMA... So I don't see it being that far-fetched for the NBOMe but I get your point.


----------



## tryp2fun

Solipsis said:


> Is 2-methylanisole a breakdown byproduct of the NBOMe phenethylamines and if so, is this no cause for concern?



That is not possible, since the route of metabolism of amines is always oxidative, not reductive.  The product of metabolism of NBOMe's is undoubtedly 2-methoxybenzoic acid, which is not toxic, especially at the dosage levels of these compounds.


----------



## Delsyd

MagickalKat777 said:


> Well I found high dose 2C-C to have euphoria greatly comparable to MDMA...



MDMA is far more than just euphoria.
IME it is the *love* drug. It is great for empathy, connecting with a partner and just so many things other than "oh man, i feel so good, im rolling bawlz."

Ive had many drugs that are euphoric. In fact mephedrone is consistantly more euphoric in that "rolling bawlz" sense. LSD and DMT have made me feel better than any and all drugs combined. Buts thats not the point. 
MDMA has something that none of those drugs do.

And i still feel that it wont be found in nbome-2cc, just as it wasnt in 2cb, 2ci, 2cc, m1, mephedrone and countless other things that have been compared to MDMA.


----------



## atara

> a trip comparable to LSD but lighter on the mind



Lighter on the mind is wrong. It's heavy as shit on the mind. That would probably be my only complaint.

There's a great Nietzsche quote:



> He who thinks a great deal is not suited to be a party man: he thinks his way through the party and out the other side too soon.



Last night, it made me hug a random stranger and tell her I loved her. But the headspace on this one is so overflowing with thoughts* that it got in the way of socializing. Shulgin's complaint that 5-MeO-DiPT was "lacking in insight" makes it sound like the precise opposite of 25c-nbome.

*of course that could be partially due to the person who took it and not the drug itself.


----------



## naginnudej

Gonna take this one for a test drive in the near future. 

After I do some oral trial runs I might attempt to IV it (beginning with 1/10th of prefered dose and working my way up).


----------



## doodahman1969

Dosed 750 mcg of this intranasally last night.

0:00-0:30: Noticeable mood lift at around 20 min in with a slight numbing/warming sensation in the neck.

0:30:-1:30: Mood lift increases some along with a noticeable change in the sharpness and a heavy brightening of colors.

1:30-2:30: At some point shortly after the 2 hour mark it kicks in fully. +3 visuals with a heavy melting aspect. Had some house music on in the background and noticed it sounded like extremely warped tape.

2:30-6:30: Intensity continues to increase and at one point I was stuck in what I can only describe as a timewarp for about  an hour, which seemed a lot longer. This ''timewarp'' period was the darkest portion of the trip (this one is really heavy on the mind; lots of chatter) which I managed to pull out of. Pitch was really low and even faster songs went extremely slow. Visuals were really intense.

6:30-10:00: Effects taper off slowly and are a dull roar at around the 10:00 point. I felt really good and still had some stimulation present, so I watched ''Leaves Of Grass'' and then hit the sack.

Overall I really enjoyed it. The most predominent OEV colors for me were a really bright strange neon green, and a neon pink that would go orange randomly.


----------



## MagickalKat777

Delsyd said:


> MDMA is far more than just euphoria.
> IME it is the *love* drug. It is great for empathy, connecting with a partner and just so many things other than "oh man, i feel so good, im rolling bawlz."



This is where we disagree. MDMA is MDA's retarded cousin in my mind. MDA is the true love drug. And I can actually make love when I take MDA versus MDMA.

I get your point though. The only things that have come close to the loveyness of MDXX for me is M1+MBDB, 5-Me-MDA, and I had those lovey feelings on mescaline too.


----------



## psyfiend

MagickalKat777 said:


> MDMA is MDA's retarded cousin in my mind.



Agreed! I've been lucky enough to get pure MDA  from a good friend and it changed my life FOREVER...  MDMA is still great (in it's own way) but still no cigar!  The only experiences that has come remotely close to MDA is psilocybin azurenscens and DMT and LSD. 

As for the 25c... I will be trying soon  and will happily report my experience.


----------



## sackynut

MagickalKat777 said:


> This is where we disagree. MDMA is MDA's retarded cousin in my mind. MDA is the true love drug. And I can actually make love when I take MDA versus MDMA.



I also agree, since someone just bumped this today :D

I have never gotten as much loved up feeling on MDMA, as I have on any psych. 2ci was about equal to MDMA for me. But everything else is much more so. And I have connects to extremely pure MDMA, and have done large amounts before. 

Pure MDA is the true love drug. It gives me almost the same if not more lovey-dovey than psychs, but without the extreme mind-fuck. And the roll per mg, compared to MDMA is crazy, I roll much much harder. 

However I will note I did MDA for 3 days straight, and I wanted to die after the 3rd day, my body wanted to kill me!

Ill be trying 25c-nbome soon at 300ug, Ill report on it when it happens!
I want to examine negative side effects at higher doses to explore the dose-sensitivity.


----------



## RandomGuy123

sackynut said:


> I also agree, since someone just bumped this today :D
> 
> I have never gotten as much loved up feeling on MDMA, as I have on any psych. 2ci was about equal to MDMA for me. But everything else is much more so. And I have connects to extremely pure MDMA, and have done large amounts before.
> 
> Pure MDA is the true love drug. It gives me almost the same if not more lovey-dovey than psychs, but without the extreme mind-fuck. And the roll per mg, compared to MDMA is crazy, I roll much much harder.
> 
> However I will note I did MDA for 3 days straight, and I wanted to die after the 3rd day, my body wanted to kill me!
> 
> Ill be trying 25c-nbome soon at 300ug, Ill report on it when it happens!
> I want to examine negative side effects at higher doses to explore the dose-sensitivity.



So I'm wondering how 5-methyl-mda will compare to MDA, since I don't know where to find pure MDA... Hell around here it's hard to get a non-pipe!


----------



## any major dude

I generally prefer MDA to MDMA myself, but i enjoy them both.  Though with the latter its very easy for me to turn into a sweaty gurning mess that wants to make out with complete strangers.

Back on topic, any details as to sub-lingual dosing methods?  May be taking the plunge with this one soon & wanna make sure i get it into my bloodstream in the most efficient manner


----------



## Erny

Rumors are that dissolving it in strong alcohol increases both the solubility and the adsorbtion rate. Just choose the brand with a good taste, not something like vodka. 

One should not just hold it under the tongue, that will only cause salivation that will slow it down, but use the tongue to spread it all over the surface of the epitelium to further increase the rate of adsorbtion.


----------



## Solipsis

Was tempted to get 25D since there is no 25C anymore but I think I'd rather wait on it since this sounds much more like what I would appreciate, and more potent too.

Thanks for the ROA advice Erny! Say how come you have 63 posts, I am positive I've seen more of yours in my lifetime... bringing obscure though highly interesting and novel research info from russia (wasnt it?)


----------



## any major dude

Erny said:


> Rumors are that dissolving it in strong alcohol increases both the solubility and the adsorbtion rate. Just choose the brand with a good taste, not something like vodka.
> 
> One should not just hold it under the tongue, that will only cause salivation that will slow it down, but use the tongue to spread it all over the surface of the epitelium to further increase the rate of adsorbtion.



thanks a bunch man, that's exactly what i was worried about.  I've always had issues with excess salivation with sublingual ROA.

Approximately how long have you guys waited before swallowing/removing blotter etc?


----------



## Erny

I do not use this method of administration myself, my lowered sensitivity and milligram doses allow me to do well with the insufflation. It shoud be 15 to 30 minutes.


----------



## bluffythefluffy

Any idea on the longevity of this compound when in alcohol and/or water solution?

Asking because there are some reports of vastly diminished effects upon later dosing as confirmed by other first time users. 

I would bet the issue was the fickle nature of sublingual administration, but it could be due to degradation.


----------



## ebola?

According to another's post that I read (and trust (MattPsy??)), there are no clear points of structural instability, so we wouldn't expect much degradation in solution, a la the 2Cs. It is likely that the ridiculously high binding affinity and efficacy at 5ht2a causes rapid accrual of tolerance, even fairly early into the experience.

Also...why do we even care about potency?  Even the NBOMe-DOXs appear plenty potent enough to be just dandy (though less potent than the 'parent compounds', by an order of magnitude according to some reports).

ebola


----------



## nuke

There are reports of strong potentiation (2-4x) using water solutions of micelle generating surfacants like lecithin and polysorbate and sublingual/rectal administration.  Concentrations need not be high, 0.5-1% solutions which are then agitated seem to be enough.  Activity of 25C-NBOMe is reported to be very strong at around 100mcg for a +++ with this method.


----------



## atara

Huh. Is this with the freebase or the hydrochloride? I have some lecithin and am willing to give it a go, but I'm not sure what to do...


----------



## skillet

Interesting! That's more like the sort of dose range I'd expect given its (presumed) affinity. These compounds are pretty lipophilic so I guess it significantly improves bioavailability. 

I'm also guessing that the higher potency of the chloro analog over the bromo and iodo compounds is (at least partly) due to its lower lipophilicity, so I'd be very careful trying this with the other compounds, they could well be potentiated even more.


----------



## Solipsis

Sounds like a pretty advanced idea, next up: administration in fullerene agents :D


----------



## atara

Wouldn't that mean the trifluoro- compound would be more potent due to the polarity of the CF3- substituent?


----------



## skillet

I dunno, but with CF3 the cLogP comes out at 4.63 compared to 4.45 for I...

Edit: But log P (also calculated with chemdraw) goes the other way, with I being more lipophilic. And obviously affinity still come into it.


----------



## bluffythefluffy

Thanks so much _ebola?_ and _nuke_.

That's really valuable information.

When I said later dosing I meant about a week - but it does seem like these substances could have pretty serious tolerance issues.


----------



## Erny

bluffythefluffy said:


> Any idea on the longevity of this compound when in alcohol and/or water solution?
> 
> Asking because there are some reports of vastly diminished effects upon later dosing as confirmed by other first time users.
> 
> I would bet the issue was the fickle nature of sublingual administration, but it could be due to degradation.


Besides the structure of the chemical there are other things to affect it. Shelf life of each individual batch of any chemical depends on its purity. A purer batch lasts longer than the inpure one. The difference between them might be years for the pure batch against weeks for the impurest. 

At the same time the nature of the impurities is more important than their percentage. If the impurities are solvents, by-products and reactants from the reaction medium itself, they might destroy the batch quite quickly. A seemingly pure batch made by one synthetic route and containing reactive (towards the main chemical) by-products may decompose sooner than a seemingly less pure made via another route. Such reactive impurities only become hostile in a liquid media, be it residual amounts of some solvents a solid product holds, a solution, or the crystals that tend to adsorb moisture from the air rather rapidly. The hygroscopicity of the chemical in solid form should thus be taken into consideration as well.


It is not always possible to deduce how long somebody might be able to store the chemical he has there, without even seeing it.


Returning to the ontopic, PEAs having N-2-MeO benzyl on the amino nitrogen seem to have a shelf life that is almost as good or even exactly as good as regular PIHKAL PEAs. The latter, when stored in a solid form, don't loose potency for years, some decrease might be noticed after 5+ years of storage. Anything as stable as theese simple structures having no weak places in their molecules, if the batch they are from was pure enougth, should probably last for months or even years with no substantial decomposition, when in solution.




			
				bluffythefluffy said:
			
		

> When I said later dosing I meant about a week - but it does seem like these substances could have pretty serious tolerance issues.


The issues is actually their strong and long lasting tolerance to themselves and other NBOMes. There was a rumour some time ago that their cross-tolerance with other psychedelics like simple PEAs may actually be diminished. The person I heard that from made such conclusion based on a single experience of 4 people that were tripping together on NBOMe-2C-I and took 2C-B the next day. With some NBOMe, a strong dose taken the next day after the same or any other NBOMe is almost ineffective and produce very light effects. 

But this rumor on the cross-tolerance issue was not confirmed by others to take it seriously, and remains to be elucidated.

One should normally wait at least two weeks before the next trip, but longer pauses are more preferable, for, when they are taken too often, they loose almost all of their magic.



			
				ebola? said:
			
		

> Even the NBOMe-DOXs appear plenty potent enough to be just dandy (though less potent than the 'parent compounds', by an order of magnitude according to some reports).


I don't think so. This compound, NBOMe-DOB, is both very weak and unpleasant. It even produce almost no usual visual phenomena of psychedelic phenylethylamines. Feels like being just stoned for a time without any use. The thing brings in some sensoric noize, blurs the vision, makes you feel like having flu (though not as awful as TMA-2 or 6 may feel), and goes away after several hours of such disgrace. The intensity of it's effects remain at plus 1 by the Shulgin scale no matter how much of it was ingested. 30 mg don't differ much in potency from 20 mg, or from 5 mg, increasing the dosage does almost nothing.

Theese peculiarities may possibly be related to another parameter describing interaction of the ligand with the receptor, the intrinsic activity. NBOMe-DOB has it somewhere around 20%, at the border between partial agonists and antagonists. NBOMe-2C-X intrinsic activity is normally as high as 70-80%, like that of DOX or some potent tryptamines. NBOMe-2C-I has the lowest of those that had been measured, 60+% if I remember it correctly. The numbers are available in Ralf Heim's work.




			
				skillet said:
			
		

> I'm also guessing that the higher potency of the chloro analog over the bromo and iodo compounds is (at least partly) due to its lower lipophilicity, so I'd be very careful trying this with the other compounds, they could well be potentiated even more.


The reversed order of potency of 2C-Hal-NBOMe should be viewed from a slightly different perspective to understand it. More lipophylic structures travel through the body and accumulate in the brain slower, than those that are less lipophylic. If we compare the amount of time between the intake and the peak seen in different NBOMe-2C-Hal, 3 hours for iodine and no more than 40 minutes for chlorine, it appears that they should actually be almost equipotent. The less hydrophobic NBOMe-2C-C reaches peak brain levels faster and thus seem like being more potent, NBOMe-2C-I travels through the body way slower and seem as if it is less potent.

And there were several people who claimed that in their personal experience with NBOMe-2C-I, B and C all the three were roughly equipotent.

N-2-MeO-benzyl moiety in their molecules seem to influence their affinity more than substituents in the 2,5-dimethoxy-X-phenyl part. So, the presence of this moiety levels their potency, no matter what is on the 2,5-dimethoxyphenyl side of their molecules. Related structures from PIHKAL differ from each other much, much more in their potencies, if compared with those bearing 2-methoxy benzyl.


----------



## skillet

Erny said:


> Theese peculiarities may possibly be related to another parameter describing interaction of the ligand with the receptor, the intrinsic activity. NBOMe-DOB has it somewhere around 20%, at the border between partial agonists and antagonists. NBOMe-2C-X intrinsic activity is normally as high as 70-80%, like that of DOX or some potent tryptamines. NBOMe-2C-I has the lowest of those that had been measured, 60+% if I remember it correctly. The numbers are available in Ralf Heim's work.



The numbers for IA of the NBOMe's and NBOH's in Heim's thesis are all rather low, all around 30-40%.



Erny said:


> The reversed order of potency of 2C-Hal-NBOMe should be viewed from a slightly different perspective to understand it. More lipophylic structures travel through the body and accumulate in the brain slower, than those that are less lipophylic. If we compare the amount of time between the intake and the peak seen in different NBOMe-2C-Hal, 3 hours for iodine and no more than 40 minutes for chlorine, it appears that they should actually be almost equipotent. The less hydrophobic NBOMe-2C-C reaches peak brain levels faster and thus seem like being more potent, NBOMe-2C-I travels through the body way slower and seem as if it is less potent.



Exactly, I guess it's a combination of rate of absorption and rate of accumulation in the brain. Co-administration with a surfactant should only affect the rate of absorption.

Edit: Do you know anything about effective dose ranges of the NBOH's?


----------



## bluffythefluffy

Many thanks _Erny_.

Hopefully the labs that made these didn't leave anything detrimental in them, as solutions have many obvious benefits for handling and administration.


----------



## MattPsy

atara said:


> Huh. Is this with the freebase or the hydrochloride? I have some lecithin and am willing to give it a go, but I'm not sure what to do...



Both forms work.

The freebase works maginally better, but it is hard to get it to a fine enough powder that it dissolves in a short time, as it is somewhat waxy to oily in texture - it will be hard to get lots of surface area exposed. For this reason the HCl salt is probably a better choice.
Also I should say that it was polysorbate 80 (aka Tween 80) that was trialled, however lecithin will probably work too, and other nonionic surfactants for that matter like Triton X-100. Tween 80 is traditional among bioscience, proven safe, hence it being the first choice. It is commonly used to formulate parenteral forms of water-insoluble drugs.

Also I doubt anything detrimental will be in the product; whether this is the case should be easy to test, simply from the potency of the material. If your doses are +/- 20% of what is to be expected, hell even 50%, then you know at worst you will be getting 20/50% of your total dose mass as impurities; considering the potency of the material, then, the impurities would have to be extremely toxic/active to be detrimental in such quantities. 2-methoxybenzaldehyde and 2C-C (two possible impurities) are not toxic. Neither are any of the reducing agents possibly used in the synthesis, in the micrograms or even low milligrams at least.

skillet: Yeah surfactants should really only affect the absorbtion rate as you say, except notably in the case of parenteral use (IV), where drug-micelle complexes may reach the BBB intact and possibly as a result a much faster and more complete membrane transport.


----------



## bluffythefluffy

To clarify, I meant detrimental to the longevity of the compound specifically, rather than to the health/experience of the user.

Absorption rate could have a pretty dramatic impact on effects though, right?


----------



## MattPsy

Yep. But unless that impurity was a CATALYST (ie. degrading/changing the drug, but not being consumed itself), it will only be able to degrade the same number of moles (molecules) of drug as there is impurity substance, leading to at worst the same % of drug being degraded as there was impurity (assuming a 1:1 reaction).

And yes definitely absorption could have a very powerful effect on effects experienced. I think a lot of the potency reduction we're seeing with NBOMe-2C-I vs NBOMe-2C-C, for example, is as a result of tolerance being built up WHILE the drug is still absorbing. NBOMe-2C-I takes a long time to be transported to the brain, so long that I theroise that tolerance builds up over that time period of only a hour or two so it seems less potent when it finally peaks. NBOMe-2C-C has a similar effect, sayif you have say 50% of your dose, and then the other 50% an hour later, you do not seem to get the full effect of the combined doses - actually, you only seem to get say about 65% of the intensity, but the duration is lengthened.
Same with smoking NBOMe-2C-C versus insufflating it. The boost in potency seems increased over that of simple bioavailability increase (ie. absorption), the effects are stronger too. All of this can be related back to rate of comeup.


----------



## any major dude

this is my favorite thread on BL right now 

What were your dosages for smoked (or vaporised) 25C-nBOMe, MattPsy?  Any difference in duration from other ROA's?

So is the decrease in subjective effects a likely result of rapid receptor down regulation due to the very high (5-HT2a at least) affinity?  There seems to be somewhat similar occurrences with LSD, but they seem to be much less pronounced.  Any other possibilities?


----------



## MattPsy

MattPsy said:


> Oh, I should probably confirm the dosages involved, since this stuff is about to hit primetime it would seem, for better or for worse (probably worse, people can't seem to use the existing 2Cxs and DOxs responsibly!) ...
> Insufflated: threshold ~ 100ug, +2 @ 250ug, +3 @ >400ug
> Vapourised, as HCl salt (freebase sometimes shows signs of decomposition if vapourising): threshold ~ 30ug, +2 @ 50ug, +3 @ 150ug. Reduced duration. Favourite method for author.
> Oral: no appreciable activity past 1mg, 'ceiling' level is reached, probably pharmacokinetic in origin.
> 
> Repeated dosing past the 1hr mark seems to only increase duration and return intensity to first dose levels, not beyond, probably a function of very rapid receptor downregulation.



As earlier in this thread.
Yup, downregulation. Nothing else seems to be able to fully account for the subtleties of the phenomenon. Perhaps downregulation specific to one mode of receptor functional signalling, to account for why it is more pronounced than with LSD et al..

When smoked the duration is about 2 hours less IME, come up is very rapid, peaking within 5 minutes. Be very careful doing this. Don't even think about doing this without a microgram scale. It is however very awesome.


----------



## love_sex_desire

^ A friend vaporised some 25C and it sounds like vaporised doses of 25C-NBOMe are in the same range or slightly lower than other routes (under a mg) and lasts about an hour, with strong euphoria. I'm going to try this compound soon and I am contemplating whether to jump right into vaping, or trying the finnicky sublingual route or the possibly painful insufflated route. It sounds like vaporised is better than sublingual or insufflation, if you can trust yourself enough to dispense an accurate amount onto some aluminum foil! If you have a very accurate sinlg emg scale maybe weigh 5 mg and split it up into five single mg piles and then further split each single mg pile into ten 100 ug piles for each, though that obviously wont be very accurate.


----------



## MattPsy

Using foil will be hopelessly inaccurate, you'll get much different efficiencies depending on technique. Use a glass pipe if you're going to do it at all. If you can afford to get some of the most exotic psychedelics in the world, you can also afford to use it in a proper, repeatable way.

Also, it lasts for more like 5-6 hours IME, as has been the experience of some other 10 friends of mine, 1 hour does not sound right at all...

Like I said if you don't have a microgram (I use one accurate to 10 mics, which is good enough, to 100 wouldn't be...) scale just don't do it at all. People will die if they do this, I almost guarantee it. And then this compound will be scheduled like all the other ones.

I'm not sure you realize just how small 100 micrograms looks like. It's TINY, almost not visible. You CAN'T cut up a 1mg pile into 10. People couldn't do that with DOx (and that was 10mg piles into single mgs), they got their arses handed to them on a silver platter, so what do you reckon the chances are like for something more like 10 times as difficult?


----------



## any major dude

i was thinking liquid measurement then evaporation for the vaporisation route, if i do it at all, gonna try sublingual first.  I've also got an excellent apparatus that i've been using for vaping single digit mg quantities of cannabinoids.  its basically a glass hookah tip (used as a bulb) attached to a piece of surgical tubing & a small bit of glass tubing for a mouthpiece.  I've got a proper base pipe, but found this much more effective for smoking small quantities of things.


----------



## skillet

It should be possible to dissolve at least 20mg per mL of isopropanol, in other words, too much to measure such a small dose accurately. Another thing to keep in mind if vapourising - the potential for a relatively large amount of practically invisible residue to build up. If you use a pipe it's probably best to clean it every time, foil - use a fresh piece.


----------



## any major dude

for safety's sake i'd dilute it to near homeopathic proportions.  Something like 200µg/mL.  That way 0.5mL =~1 vaporised dose.  Still unsure as to whether i'm going to do it though.  Had planned to test sublingual dosage out this weekend, but i've had a bit of an upper respiratory infection that's prevented me from doing so.  Definitely going to try that ROA first


----------



## MattPsy

It doesn't dissolve very well in IPA as the HCl salt, nor acetone, certainly not anywhere near as much as 20mg/mL... Even 4mg will not dissolve in 1mL of warm IPA. The freebase dissolves okay in IPA, sorry, I don't remember the figures from the rough experiments, only that it works far better.


----------



## atara

Chlorides and simple alcohols are not really friends. Iodides are typically soluble in all lower alcohols as well as acetone. I don't know if this is due to the nucleophilicity of iodine, or what, but the hydroiodide is probably soluble in ethanol, isopropanol, and acetone.

I'm totally hinting at something here, by the way. Just because I think that making things more convenient for people is a really cool thing to do.


----------



## CesarMillan

MattPsy said:


> It doesn't dissolve very well in IPA as the HCl salt, nor acetone, certainly not anywhere near as much as 20mg/mL... Even 4mg will not dissolve in 1mL of warm IPA. The freebase dissolves okay in IPA, sorry, I don't remember the figures from the rough experiments, only that it works far better.



Hey MattPsy, thanks for the all the invaluable information. I share your concern about the potential for very serious results from irresponsible dosing, but we should also be realistic about its availability and how many of the purchasers are going to invest in a ug scale... so in the interest of harm reduction, would this approach be significantly accurate/safe?

A. All venders should take greatest responsibility to accurately label the compound and its volume

B. If no ug scale is available, what concentration and solvent do you recommend for 25C and 25D for nasal delivery (like putting the liquid in a nose spray bottle and working out the percentages to get something like 100ug per spray?) and for vaporising where a small amount like 50ug per .1ml is evaporated onto a medium (herb) and then vaporising the medium?

C. In either method, liquid or accurate scale, tiny tiny doses are slowly tested from what is believed to be 1ug up.

With correct details and followed very carefully, is this safe enough to make exploration not to be more dangerous then a drive to the airport?

Also do I understand correctly that simply adding some lecithin to the solution increase potency 2-4x?


----------



## MattPsy

A. Vendors do not have an exactly shining history of providing stated quantities, commonly leading to unintentional overdoses.

B. For nasal delivery, water with surfactant is probably your best bet. I wouldn't want to sniff up droplets of concentrated alcohols. Maybe you feel differently. If on herb, smoking does not work, in experiments maybe only 10% of dose survived the heat, maybe vaporising off herb will work, I do not know.

C. I can't tell you whether taking research weapons-grade hallucinogens with a minimum of human study is safe for you, or safer than driving to your airport. Driving is pretty dangerous though huh. Horrible to think about.

It is SPECULATED that lecithin may work because it is also a surfactant like polysorbate 80 (the one that was actually tried). Also I can't guarantee that it will be 2-4x. This is why it is called research.


----------



## IGNVS

"
C. I can't tell you whether taking research weapons-grade hallucinogens with a minimum of human study is safe for you, or safer than driving to your airport. Driving is pretty dangerous though huh. Horrible to think about.
"

probably the best thing ive seen on these boards in a while. 


&thanks atara


----------



## naginnudej

I'll be sampling this compound in the next few weeks. Will report back then.

Lot's of great discussion in here--keep it up everyone


----------



## CesarMillan

A. Vendors do not have an exactly shining history of providing stated quantities, commonly leading to unintentional overdoses.

  - fingers crossed they have learnt from the past too. I know our safety is each our own responsibility but how could a vender live with themselves not taking such a role very seriously... but of course we're all human and hence the requirement to test from the tiniest amount upwards 

B. For nasal delivery, water with surfactant is probably your best bet. I wouldn't want to sniff up droplets of concentrated alcohols. Maybe you feel differently. If on herb, smoking does not work, in experiments maybe only 10% of dose survived the heat, maybe vaporising off herb will work, I do not know.

  - but don't they (2C-NBOMe's) dissolve poorly in water? or will the surfactant fix that? What concentration would you recommend?

C. I can't tell you whether taking research weapons-grade hallucinogens with a minimum of human study is safe for you, or safer than driving to your airport. Driving is pretty dangerous though huh. Horrible to think about.

  - ok how about I put it this way, if you didn't have access to a scale, would you be comfortable approaching dosing in this manor?

and "weapons-grade hullucinogen" really geez, crazy military talk but I guess it brings homes the reality, lets hope it never actually behaves like a weapon...

Thanks again, you've been invaluable on this topic!


----------



## love_sex_desire

So what can be used to dissolve this chem for evaporation? I want to try vaping 25C as it sounds amazing, but I wouldn't want to eyeball such miniscule doses even with a single mg scale. From reports it sounds like vaping is the way to go. It sounds like a fairly benign compound, although the lack of research doesn't tell us much, but I haven't heard of any bodyload associated with 25C.

MattPsy how long is the peak when vaped? Have you tried vaping repeated doses in one session? Is there tolerance from vaping like there is from other ROA? It would be nice to vape a small amount and work up the dosage if tolerance doesn't come into play.


----------



## psood0nym

nuke said:


> There are reports of strong potentiation (2-4x) using water solutions of micelle generating surfacants like lecithin and polysorbate and sublingual/rectal administration.  Concentrations need not be high, 0.5-1% solutions which are then agitated seem to be enough.  Activity of 25C-NBOMe is reported to be very strong at around 100mcg for a +++ with this method.


Wow, so if absorption is the limiter here we'd expect 100mcg to be sufficient for a +++ using this material intramuscularly, too?  Also, I presume the speed of onset would be increased using either IM or micelle generating surfacants? Have these initial experiences been repeated?


----------



## MagickalKat777

I'll be trying this at 300ug here shortly... Maybe. After my "2C-E" disaster yesterday I'm taking a break.


----------



## psood0nym

So the HCl is not soluble in IPA or acetone, but IS soluble in water, correct?  And vice versa for the freebase?  I'll have access to some of the HCl soon, and was planning on dissolving 1 mg in 2 mL of sterile water and IMing 10 insulin units (~50 ug) or less every 30 minutes until something happens.  It seems likely I'll feel 50 ug in under 10 minutes since its onset speed is so dramatically increased when smoking (5 min).  Plus IMing seems like a much better way to control dosage than smoking. 

It's also my understanding that the HCl should be stable enough in water for one mL of water with 500 ug to not degrade for long enough to be used up over the course of a couple months.

Is all this relatively accurate and plausible given what information exists on this compound at the moment? Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything before using the VX nerve gas of psychedelics.
EDIT:


> Huh. Is this with the freebase or the hydrochloride? I have some lecithin and am willing to give it a go, but I'm not sure what to do..


I have some too, but it's in the form of an oily gel inside a capsule. I'm pretty sure this isn't the kind you want because in my brief search I only found use of "pluronic lecithin organelles" in the context of absorption mediums for other drugs. On the other hand, polysorbate 80 is super cheap and verified as working.  I wonder if 100 ug doses of  25C-NBOMe could be mixed with the polysorbate 80 solution and put on blotter and still be just as effective at increasing absorption as when administered "wet" (I assume saliva would be all that's needed?). Blotter seems like a natural medium for dispersing a multi-milligram order of this on a usable medium for convenient long term access.  Plus, in the unfortunate case of dealers selling it as LSD, with the polysorbate 80 mixture the onset would be, I think, a lot quicker, and so many of the re-dose dangers seen with other slower onset chems sold as LSD could be bypassed. Not to mention at 100 ug per dose this stuff is much cheaper than other LSD-substitute chems, so there's a profit motive (it'd be a shitty way to do harm reduction, but harm reduction nevertheless).


----------



## IGNVS

has anyone tried this in combination with nootropics like piracetam?


----------



## nuke

psood0nym said:


> So the HCl is not soluble in IPA or acetone, but IS soluble in water, correct?  And vice versa for the freebase?  I'll have access to some of the HCl soon, and was planning on dissolving 1 mg in 2 mL of sterile water and IMing 10 insulin units (~50 ug) or less every 30 minutes until something happens.  It seems likely I'll feel 50 ug in under 10 minutes since its onset speed is so dramatically increased when smoking (5 min).  Plus IMing seems like a much better way to control dosage than smoking.
> 
> It's also my understanding that the HCl should be stable enough in water for one mL of water with 500 ug to not degrade for long enough to be used up over the course of a couple months.
> 
> Is all this relatively accurate and plausible given what information exists on this compound at the moment? Just want to make sure I'm not missing anything before using the VX nerve gas of psychedelics.
> EDIT:
> 
> I have some too, but it's in the form of an oily gel inside a capsule. I'm pretty sure this isn't the kind you want because in my brief search I only found use of "pluronic lecithin organelles" in the context of absorption mediums for other drugs. On the other hand, polysorbate 80 is super cheap and verified as working.  I wonder if 100 ug doses of  25C-NBOMe could be mixed with the polysorbate 80 solution and put on blotter and still be just as effective at increasing absorption as when administered "wet" (I assume saliva would be all that's needed?). Blotter seems like a natural medium for dispersing a multi-milligram order of this on a usable medium for convenient long term access.  Plus, in the unfortunate case of dealers selling it as LSD, with the polysorbate 80 mixture the onset would be, I think, a lot quicker, and so many of the re-dose dangers seen with other slower onset chems sold as LSD could be bypassed. Not to mention at 100 ug per dose this stuff is much cheaper than other LSD-substitute chems, so there's a profit motive (it'd be a shitty way to do harm reduction, but harm reduction nevertheless).



The effect was thought to be dependent on micelle generation so I would guess that it would need to stay in solution to be effect, so I'm not entirely sure drying it out for blotters would be effect (plus polysorbate is kind of gooey stuff).  The oily kind of lecithin should work fine, the main thing is high concentrations of phosphatidylcholide.  Put a drop or two of either PPC or tween-80 in solution and vortex/sonicate and then ingest (might get frothy/bubbly).

Probably not suitable for injection methods but you're welcome to try yourself as a guinea, I imagine this is a pain in the ass to filter


----------



## psood0nym

nuke said:


> .
> Probably not suitable for injection methods but you're welcome to try yourself as a guinea, I imagine this is a pain in the ass to filter


Thanks for the reply. When you say that you imagine "this is a pain in the ass to filter" you're referring to the gooey polysorbate 80 solution, correct?  I wouldn't bother trying to inject that, I'd just dissolve the HCl in water and inject. I'm assuming injecting into muscle bypasses the need for the absorption-enhancing polysorbate 80 medium, and would therefore be active at 100 ug simply dissolved in water, or am I missing something?


----------



## MattPsy

Polysorbate 80 is used in forming solutions of otherwise water insoluble drugs so actually it should work just fine.
I wouldn't be keen to try it with lecithin, it may contain organic matter that could cause an allergic reaction.
I will not assist in theory of preparing blotters.


----------



## psood0nym

^But the HCl is soluble in water without polysorbate 80 or other solvents, and can therefore simply be dissolved in water for injection, correct?


----------



## MattPsy

Yup. It can dissolve slowly sometimes, though. Perhaps make the water warm.


----------



## psood0nym

^Great. Thanks.


----------



## tripgrind

how about african dream root tea? a few drops of that froth should do the trick


----------



## psood0nym

^I typed in "african dream root micelle" in a search engine and got no responses that suggest that tea is capable of the critical role polysorbate 80 is thought to play in increasing 25C-NBMOe absorption.  Perhaps you've found differently, otherwise why do you suggest it? 

I think the easiest way to bypass the theorized low absorption rate (which, even with polysorbate 80, may be highly variable between sublingual and rectal administration making the dosing still somewhat unpredictable due to varying concentrations of polysorbate, different permeabilities of body membranes, etc), and also to get around the vicissitudes of vaporization (burning/destroying the compound, not holding in the vapor long enough, etc.), is just to inject it into muscle. Hopefully I'll try it later this week and be able to post back with the results.


----------



## Dr Mamba

MattPsy said:


> I think a lot of the potency reduction we're seeing with NBOMe-2C-I vs NBOMe-2C-C, for example, is as a result of tolerance being built up WHILE the drug is still absorbing.


I also feel that the reason of oral inactivity is different than what is occure with DMT (digestive dégradation), or Salvia (very short half live).
When i tried to find my right dose with fractionnal sublingual doses, i couldn't managed to feel nothing but very light buzz.
250µ nothing, +250µ 2h later very little, +500µ 1h30 later very brief and light, +500 1H later nothing.
The point is very likely that you have to make a single big hit very quiquely because of almost instant tolérance.
Any other redosing report ?


----------



## psood0nym

^That's why I think injection is probably the best for determining the dose with this difficult material.  It's the only way to know we're getting specific amounts into the body at titrated doses that become active quickly enough to add more without running up against quickly developing tolerance issues. 50 ug followed by another another IM dose 30 minutes later, whose size will depend on how strong the first 50 ug dose is, will hopefully be fast enough to avoid the development of serious tolerance while still offering some increase in safety through titration.  You might be able to do the same thing with multiple pre-measured vaporized doses since they reportedly give results within 5 minutes (it's just that vaporization isn't the most precise dosing method).


----------



## any major dude

took 450µg sublingually friday evening.  Doubt all of it was absorbed, definitely +++, but on the low end of that, maybe more like +2.5.  I'll probably experiment with some alternate ROAs with this one, the sublingual dosing is just too iffy.  That and the relative inability to redose effectively are a good enough reason to try insufflation & possibly vaporization, unless i can find some of those handy glycine tablets erny was talking about a few pages back.

As for the substance itself, really enjoyable.  Definitely psychedelic, but in a very talkative sociable way.  Duration seemed pretty manageable as well.  Dosed about 7, started feeling effects in about half an hour, in full swing around 9, effects starting to fade around midnight-1, came home at two, entirely down by 3, asleep a little later.  Could've gone to sleep before i did, just got really interested in an episode of the universe on netflix, so i stayed up & smoked some JWH-200 & 073 while watching that, then went to bed.


----------



## happydaze

Thizzerfershizzer said:


> It's Nichols NBOMe analogue of 2C-C I believe. Extremely potent, however only if taken intranasally if I remember correctly.
> 
> Correct me if i'm wrong, im going solely off of information from lab's who ive talked to regarding the synth of this product as well as chemists and RC enthusiasts.
> 
> Id advise checking in ADD as there will definitely be more info on the NBOMe substances, if not this substance itself.




I snorted 20mg of 2c-b once and it was a MAJOR regret lol! If its anything like that I would gladly pass as snorting any 2c compound hurts worst( is it worse or worst?) then being burnt by gonorrhea haha


----------



## IGNVS

hey pseudo, i was logged in as a friend. african dream root tea is easily whipped up into a frothy bubbling mess, and the sapponins are emulsifiers. i just figured it might have similar proporties is all...


----------



## psood0nym

^You may be right, I just didn't find anything in that specific search. Pictures of micelles remind my layman mind of soap, which emulsifies. The fact that just polysorbate 80 and licithin were mentioned makes it seem like you need a specific type of micelle when it comes to 25C-NBOMe, though, and I have no idea what qualifies. I'm not too bothered to find out though, since I'm just gonna do the elegant thing and stab it through the problem with a needle!


----------



## any major dude

do tell how that goes.  I'm definitely thinking sublingual isn't the best ROA, even though i have yet to try others.  Can't decide whether to vape or do some type of nasal administration next...


----------



## skillet

Rectal works ok, and is probably more consistent than sublingual.


----------



## any major dude

ah, i'd totally forgotten about that hole 

And why would injection avoid the redose-tolerance issue?  I'd assume that would happen so rapidly as to make ROA inconsequential


----------



## psood0nym

Injection, like vaporization, would theoretically work fast enough to avoid developing substantial tolerance AS the compound absorbs (see post #212). It is the development of tolerance as the compound slowly absorbs that is thought to account for the radical differences in dose response between ROAs (typically vaporization would be about twice as potent as oral, but here it's more like 5Xs as potent, as is rectal adminstration (but ONLY with polysorbate 80 to help it absorb _faster_). That is, tolerance for this compound is thought to develop much more rapidly than for something like DMT or LSD. 

Has anyone used these enough to estimate how long tolerance takes to come down after using an NBOMe? Days? Over a week? I'm just thinking anyone planning a psychedelic weekend might be very disappointed if they started with 25C-NBOMe on day one.


----------



## Cface

egor said:


> If the meph generation gets a hold of them, the results could be disastrous...


Funny you mention that, as it appears to be on-sale right next to 4-mmc on a certain vendors page.

I looked at the chemical, seemed interesting, but as i read more about dosage i decided to stay far far away as i tend to need substances much more dose-forgiving.


----------



## MattPsy

this should get interesting


----------



## Solipsis

A couple weeks back I was worried it was gone and I was left to choose 25D which sounds much less interesting. But its 25C now, the tiniest sample that I will be making liquid of - putting on blotter has been considered but obviously never to be passed off as acid, that would be economically silly anyway if it wasn't something despicable to do. Will probably just keep it as liquid (vodka).
Buccal absorption sounds fine, if it is really concentrated maybe intranasal liquid could have better efficiency but I would worry about seepage a little bit.


----------



## atara

Putting an NBOMe on blotter and passing it off as acid wouldn't work because people would swallow the tabs and there'd be no effect. You'd piss a lot of people off because they didn't know how to properly dose.

I mean, yeah, LSD usually works better sublingual, but there's a good proportion of people who don't realize that.


----------



## MagickalKat777

This sounds like such a tricky class of compounds, the NBOMe's...


----------



## any major dude

psood0nym said:


> Injection, like vaporization, would theoretically work fast enough to avoid developing substantial tolerance AS the compound absorbs (see post #212). It is the development of tolerance as the compound slowly absorbs that is thought to account for the radical differences in dose response between ROAs (typically vaporization would be about twice as potent as oral, but here it's more like 5Xs as potent, as is rectal adminstration (but ONLY with polysorbate 80 to help it absorb _faster_). That is, tolerance for this compound is thought to develop much more rapidly than for something like DMT or LSD.
> 
> Has anyone used these enough to estimate how long tolerance takes to come down after using an NBOMe? Days? Over a week? I'm just thinking anyone planning a psychedelic weekend might be very disappointed if they started with 25C-NBOMe on day one.



thanks for the info, & i was wondering about the longer-term tolerance issues as well.  The next time I take some 25C-nBOMe i may dose a 2c or 4-sub trypt a couple or three days later just to see if it has a more substantial long term tolerance than the parent compounds.  I kind of doubt it would, but I've got no scientific basis for that, just an assumption.




atara said:


> Putting an NBOMe on blotter and passing it off as acid wouldn't work because people would swallow the tabs and there'd be no effect. You'd piss a lot of people off because they didn't know how to properly dose.
> 
> I mean, yeah, LSD usually works better sublingual, but there's a good proportion of people who don't realize that.



I'm kind of glad this is the case.  No DOx type disasters with this stuff.  Hopefully


----------



## atara

MagickalKat777 said:


> This sounds like such a tricky class of compounds, the NBOMe's...



If one can actually get them into the bloodstream they're a great time, but so far all that's worked for me is insufflating a solution and that is not so pleasant!


----------



## skillet

I really don't see the problem with plugging these, it works fine and you don't have to deal with trying not to swallow a mouth full of saliva for 20 min or snorting nasty tasting liquids or tiny amounts of solids!


----------



## atara

It would require equipment and skills I don't have is the problem. If I'm going to learn a new and complicated ROA it's probably going to be IM or IV.


----------



## amanitadine

? Now wait a minute, I'm almost certain you have a butthole.....and it seems like a purdy simple proposition....


----------



## Aleph

Aleph said:


> I have not tried the NBOMe, but the trips I read remind me incredibly  my experiences with BDFLY.





Aleph said:


> BDFLY to 240 micrograms lasts me 6 hours. When testing the NBOMe I can compare more accurately, as each person is different.


25C-NBOMe 200mcg tested insuflated.  indistinguishable effects BDFLY in the same oral dose.
I hope test higher doses and expect more reports from other people, but I haven’t  high hopes for this compound, BDFLY is much easier to take to be active orally.


----------



## psood0nym

Well, at the last possible day she could arrive and still be “this week” my package was waiting in the mail this fine morning. As promised, I IMd ~50 ug, then ~50 ug more about a half hour later.  I haven’t noticed any unexpected increase in potency or in the speed of onset relative to the other ROAs reported here, at least not to any degree more than would be expected using IM over insufflated or rectal with other substances. 

It’s now 2 hours after that first dose and I just finished off a full mg IM. It’s impossible to say how much of that mg has been absorbed by developing tolerance during the interim hours but, oh well, there you have it.  

In a few hours the university theater is screening Gaspar Noe's “Enter the Void,” so I wanted to prepare. Prior to this last injection, I felt less as though I would be entering a void and more that I would merely be a wallflower on the dance floor of oblivion.  Now things are getting more interesting.  It’s very lucid, the most lucid psychedelic I’ve ever used. Like water into water, any one of its psychic manifestations blends into the innumerable perturbations of the others.  It’s just as I imagined a highly-selective 5-HT2a agonist would be. 

It’s what in my more ignorant days I imagined “clean” LSD would feel like, before I got a look at the list of receptors she gets down with and found out what a skank Lucy really is.


----------



## psood0nym

I really like this drug. It makes me wonder how much I could take without losing it.  It's that clear headed. The visuals are pretty spectacular: for instance, when I washed my face with my gf's red towel and took the towel away from my face I saw a bunch of "psystrings" of the same color as the towel.  I noticed a few other psystrings of different colors hooked into the red string, and, not by coincidence I think, they were the same hue of green as the decorative circles on her shower curtain just adjacent the towel. 

What's interesting is how salient the visuals are and how much they incorporate features of the environment into their production in ways that appear to be somewhat systematic. That's what's unique abut the visuals of this drug. They are very clearly "there" and are three dimensional, but despite their salience cognitively I remain near normal. It would be interesting to set up a poster,  with various colors and patterns next to a blank white wall, to see if by staring at the colors and patterns on the poster I could reproduce them on the white wall next to the poster, by "dipping" my visual memory in "red," for example, then seeing if red string patterns emerge on the wall projection.   Perhaps I could deduce some inference rules of psychedelic projection from such a contrivance. There did seem to be an associative intelligence behind the features visuals had assigned to them (for example, the red towel string visuals occurring  immediately after using a frayed red towel to dry my face). It could be a way to peak behind the scenes of perception  and literally see how our minds use specific environmental cues to project specific and predictable hallucinatory projections. Playing such a "game" could be a first step to helping us to start to learn the mental and perceptual rules for how to consciously manipulate the production of visuals.


----------



## psood0nym

So after class this morning I started IMing this again. It's been two days since I last, and first, used it and I was able to trip decently for a few hours off of 1 mg earlier this afternoon. The tolerance was clearly reduced but far from gone.  It's been about five hours since then and I recently IMd ~2.5 - 3 mg more over the course of about 40 minutes out of curiosity. I just finished the second half of that injection.  The tolerance effects are definitely strong! I'm tripping, that's for sure, but only at around a ++.  It takes about 20 minutes to start to kick in using IM. I expect it to build a little more yet but to remain easily manageable.  I'll update if anything unexpected happens. Until then I'm going to amuse myself with a psychedelic trip to the local freak-run video store. Love those guys!

EDIT: It's 3 hrs later and I've added DXM, ondansetron, and ketamine into the mix.  The dissociatives definitely make the 25C's effects more prominent.  This chemical is extremely malleable.  As I type this and glance around the room things appear essentially as they normally do, yet just a few minutes ago while listening to music the walls were crawling with multicolored clockwork. It's responsive to conscious attention in a way that could give this chemical a lot of utility. It's almost like I could go through a normal day like this and experience no hindrances from the chemical, but when I focus its effects start blooming around me. 

I'm curious to hear any comparisons with other selective 5HT2a agonists.  What accounts for the differences in their qualitative effects neurobiologically?


----------



## krissilasn

Could anyone go over the solubility of this chemical for me? I'm really incompetent with the search function +_+

Im interested in attaining some and when that time comes, I'd need to liquid measure it in and have it in a dropper for blotter or just dropping it on my tongue.



atara said:


> Putting an NBOMe on blotter and passing it off as acid wouldn't work because people would swallow the tabs and there'd be no effect. You'd piss a lot of people off because they didn't know how to properly dose.
> 
> I mean, yeah, LSD usually works better sublingual, but there's a good proportion of people who don't realize that.


 Care to explain why putting it on blotter wouldn't be effective? I wanted to put some on blotter cause I just like dosing that way and I haven't had a reason to look at a nice sheet in a while. Just the logic I'm following is that since 25c-NBOMe is active sublingually you could stick blotter under your tongue? Or would this be highly ineffective?


----------



## Blowmonkey

It wouldn't be effective to sell it as acid; "because people would swallow the tabs and there'd be no effect", people generally just swallow a tab or blotter, not everyone exclusively usues it sublingually, which would be mandatory for an NBOMe.


----------



## krissilasn

I would never sell an RC as acid especially if this compound was orally active. That would cause a lot of serious complications and potential overdoses.

I just genuinely wanted to know if you left the blotter under or ontop of your tongue, would that work for dosing this compound. I don't have any ambition to pull out the rectal syringe again and Im taking a break from IV/IM.

There wouldn't be ANY sort of compound we could mix it with to make it orally active no?


----------



## iblewafuseinmymind

psood0nym said:


> I really like this drug. It makes me wonder how much I could take without losing it.  It's that clear headed. The visuals are pretty spectacular: for instance, when I washed my face with my gf's red towel and took the towel away from my face I saw a bunch of "psystrings" of the same color as the towel.  I noticed a few other psystrings of different colors hooked into the red string, and, not by coincidence I think, they were the same hue of green as the decorative circles on her shower curtain just adjacent the towel.
> 
> What's interesting is how salient the visuals are and how much they incorporate features of the environment into their production in ways that appear to be somewhat systematic. That's what's unique abut the visuals of this drug. They are very clearly "there" and are three dimensional, but despite their salience cognitively I remain near normal. It would be interesting to set up a poster,  with various colors and patterns next to a blank white wall, to see if by staring at the colors and patterns on the poster I could reproduce them on the white wall next to the poster, by "dipping" my visual memory in "red," for example, then seeing if red string patterns emerge on the wall projection.   Perhaps I could deduce some inference rules of psychedelic projection from such a contrivance. There did seem to be an associative intelligence behind the features visuals had assigned to them (for example, the red towel string visuals occurring  immediately after using a frayed red towel to dry my face). It could be a way to peak behind the scenes of perception  and literally see how our minds use specific environmental cues to project specific and predictable hallucinatory projections. Playing such a "game" could be a first step to helping us to start to learn the mental and perceptual rules for how to consciously manipulate the production of visuals.




Really enjoyed that description. I've had experience myself with what appears to be the conscious manipulation of visuals which to me seems to be dependent on the lucidity of the experience.  Sounds like this compound leaves a vast amount of room for complex intellectual interpretation. How long did it take to settle into the experience and how harsh was it?


----------



## Erny

psood0nym said:


> So after class this morning I started IMing this again. It's been two days since I last, and first, used it and I was able to trip decently for a few hours off of 1 mg earlier this afternoon. The tolerance was clearly reduced but far from gone.  It's been about five hours since then and I recently IMd ~2.5 - 3 mg more over the course of about 40 minutes out of curiosity. I just finished the second half of that injection.  The tolerance effects are definitely strong! I'm tripping, that's for sure, but only at around a ++.


Now, after having done so, you'll have to wait two weeks for the tolerance to dissapear. It is that strong and takes that long, and it gets much stronger if you redose too early, like in 1 or 2 days.

I performed several experiments with 2C-B-NBOMe i/m 3 years ago, they weren't enough to find out how do the intramuscular ROA compares to insufflation or others ROA. But it seemed it was roughly equipotent if not somewhat more potent than insufflation, certainly more potent than sublingual. And it made measuring the exact dose much easier. I was able to distinguish between 100 and 200 or 300 mcg doses, there was certainly some activity at 100 mcgs though it was barely a +1. 

And note how different is your experience with a milligram dose from what may one expect it to be if relying on my earliest description and recommendations, 300-600 mcgs as a normal dose. Individual dose is very variable for any of these substances. 

Both for NBOMe-2C-C and NBOMe-2C-B normal doses remain below 1 mg or slightly more than that for most of the people. Less sensitive people may need around 1 mg as a normal dose for NBOMe-2C-C, and they will find NBOMe-2C-B to be either equipotent or somewhat less potent. I need ~ 1 mg for C and ~ 1,5 mg for B. Still, those who are the most sensitive would need around 500 mcgs as a normal dose for C, and perhaps up to 800 for B. 

The dose range reported by different people for NBOMe-2C-I is even broader. Normal dose here is around 1 mg most frequently, but may vary from <1 mg at the lower end, and up to 3-5 mgs at the higher. That range is of almost an order of magnitude.


----------



## Lombergerh

Any information or assumptions about potency of 25E-NBOMe?


----------



## Erny

Lombergerh said:


> Any information or assumptions about potency of 25E-NBOMe?


There were few reports on it, the potency is roughly same as that of 2C-B-NBOMe, 500-800 mcgs should be safe for the majority I guess, some people would intend to take more. All the reports describe it as something not too tempting. Looks like it is to be a disappointment overall, especially if compared with the success of regular 2C-E.


----------



## Blowmonkey

Do you have any idea why Nichols presumably thinks of 2C-I-NBOMe as something "not psychedelic"..? 

Fast forward to 22:10:
http://vimeo.com/16782003


----------



## krissilasn

Just a very great post over at drugs-forum that I'd love to share with bluelight. 



			
				Shampoo said:
			
		

> Nichols stopped aiming to produce 5-HT agonists with pleasant/psychedelic effects some time ago, namely after the publication of the (in)famous pihkal and Shulgin's subsequent treat, tihkal.
> 
> The Ki of this one seems pretty low, perhaps to the point where it may be...oh, I dont know... a research tool? and not a psychedelic drug?
> 
> Br-dfly and other benzodifuran derivatives (especially fully planar dfly derivatives), as well as 25I-NBOH, 25I-NBOMe, TCB-2 and the rest of the illustrious products of the Nichols/Purdue lab which have ultrapotent/sub-milligram agonist activity are not toys.
> 
> These are tools for probing receptor activity, specifically and only 5-HT-2A/sometimesC receptors. They bind with an unbelievable affinity to these receptors and are thus very useful in research, not on blotters. Stay away from these chemicals. They are not formally tested in humans in any published document (not even rogue psychonaut publishing a la Alexander Shulgin), and may have long lasting, intense effects that may not be pleasant. Enzyme assays have yet to be done either, and we have no idea what the natural byproducts of the enzymatic degradation of these compounds are: for all we know (though unlikely), the compounds resulting from 25I-NBOH degradation could be potent neurotoxins.
> 
> If you must know however, unmonitored human trials have taken place under non-experimental conditions:
> 
> General consensus seems to be that 25I-NBOH shows no oral activity.
> 
> *Activity via sublingual or parenteral starts at well below one milligram (full activity at 500-700µg) and may be fatal in high doses.
> 
> *Doses lower than one milligram have reported some visual and cognitive activity, though reports are not detailed/well-defined.
> 
> *Doses above one-two milligram(s) have produced profound effects including severe confusion, disorientation, and overwhelming visual distortions.
> 
> *Doses of more than three milligrams may produce seizures and doses of less than ten milligrams may be fatal (shown in other n-benzyl derivatives).
> 
> 
> I would say stay away from these ones until more is known, but if you or your friends decide to dive in, document everything, if nothing else than for the enrichment of human knowledge.
> 
> But seriously, leave the hyperpotent receptor agonists to the neuroscientists/neuropharmacologists. These are- in so many words- not to be 'played' with.



Not to say I fully agree with him. Though he proves a very valid point.


----------



## Blowmonkey

> Though he proves a very valid point.



He really doesn't. His opinion is hypocritical (as if he's never taken an "RC"). Reports prove him wrong; people use these things as "psychedelics", just because they're extremely potent does not mean they're tools in neuropharmacology exclusively. That's a flawed way of thinking imo. 

Shulgin never intended for his creations to be (ab)used so extensively. Neither was that Nichols intention. Alas, if you publish papers or write books like this, people will catch on to it. It's human nature to explore the unknown and wanting to expand the mind. These will be used by the drug taking culture they've helped to create; potent or not, selective for specific receptors or not, they pretty much all have "psychedelic potential", as this thread clearly has shown. 

But yeah, what I do agree on with him is that people should take extreme caution when using these things, activity in the µg range is not to be taken lightly. Ofcourse they're not toys. I understand his concerns, I share most of them, but the way he tries to express his opinion comes over as elitist to me. Stay away from all (unresearched) drugs if you feel that way. 

Now, on with the thread, SWIM wants to see more reports please.


----------



## bluffythefluffy

No drug is a toy - it is indeed silly to suggest that we in this community are so irresponsible.


----------



## psood0nym

iblewafuseinmymind said:


> Really enjoyed that description. I've had experience myself with what appears to be the conscious manipulation of visuals which to me seems to be dependent on the lucidity of the experience.  Sounds like this compound leaves a vast amount of room for complex intellectual interpretation. How long did it take to settle into the experience and how harsh was it?


I took about 20 minutes using IM to really feel it, and I'd say around 40 to plateau. It's difficult to say for sure because the first time I used it I started with just ~ 100 ug and kept incrementing up, all the while tolerance was building, and this second time was just two days after, so who knows how much tolerance from the first time was muddling my ability to discern the onset of activity.

If you go back a couple of my posts to the first mini trip report you'll see I describe it as the most lucid psychedelic I've ever used, and even joked a little about taking massive doses just to see if they'd maintain this quality. Again, it's the malleability of it, the apparent ability to dial the amplitude of its intensity up and down with relative ease that's fueling this attitude. Another poster stated they thought it would be impossible to have a bad experience at the dose they took earlier. So it was about the least harsh psychedelic ever for me.  No vasoconstriction and no increased mucus production, the latter of which I get with almost all psychedelics. Their was a little head fuck but it felt like the kind I might get pondering paradoxes sober rather than the kind occasionally encountered with other psyches which feels like short circuiting from biochemical chaff. The mental effects were much more about "lighting up the circuits," and intellectualizing. This happens on lots of psyches but this particular effect is another one that is more prominent for this compound relative to others for me. If I could "think myself" into tripping naturally my 25C-NBOMe experience is how I imagined that would be. 

I was mostly focused on the visuals though, because those were simply the most stand out effects relative to others (typically OEVs bore me but these were fantastic, and, as stated, they had a responsiveness to attention and showed some striking correspondences to the patterns and colors in the environment that made them more intriguing. They were easily the most vivid relative to other psychedelic effects of any compound I've ever used. 

I became really happy during the trip, but only after I focused on the effects. The intensity grew and grew and then, lo and behold, I had the classic perma-grin going. It never reached MDMA-like levels for me like others have reported.  I actually got it hoping it would be like 2C-B or TMA-6, just a plush fun psyche I could use for anything, but I'm actually happier with these unexpected results.  



			
				Erny said:
			
		

> Now, after having done so, you'll have to wait two weeks for the tolerance to dissapear. It is that strong and takes that long, and it gets much stronger if you redose too early, like in 1 or 2 days.


Thanks, this and your other comments are helpful. That's quite a range of dosages you gave.  I was thinking about waiting a week and doing 1.5 - 2 mg straight off since it seems so easy to handle (yet there's a lot that's intriguing about it that's urging me to go quite a bit higher).  But I think I'll hold off on your advice. It's a shame tolerance lingers for so long. I haven't been as excited about a single psychedelic as for this one for years (combinations of drugs (particularly DXM/ondansetron and ketamine/psilocin), yes, but not the effects of a single drug).


----------



## CesarMillan

Has there been any example in the past of a molecule that was subjectively pleasant and non-damaging, only to be later discovered as particularly harmful even in mildly active and infrequent dosages?

I wouldn't count MDMA, 2ct7 or Bromo-Dfly as examples of that because they've only caused serious problems when used irresponsibly.


----------



## nuke

psood0nym said:


> ^You may be right, I just didn't find anything in that specific search. Pictures of micelles remind my layman mind of soap, which emulsifies. The fact that just polysorbate 80 and licithin were mentioned makes it seem like you need a specific type of micelle when it comes to 25C-NBOMe, though, and I have no idea what qualifies. I'm not too bothered to find out though, since I'm just gonna do the elegant thing and stab it through the problem with a needle!



I think it's more the preparation of micelle that may matter more than the surfactant, but people will have to play around with it is my guess.  In literature the preparations for micelles are generally done with a sonicator (a long needle-tipped apparatus that looks like this: http://i.ehow.com/images/a04/tq/36/sonication-work_-200X200.jpg ).  These tend increase permeability of IP solutions as well if I recall correctly, but I might now.


----------



## psood0nym

^Interesting.  But in theory shouldn't my have IMing it been as effective in increasing potency as the micelle prep?  Or does the drug stay in encased in micelles in the body, which eventually aids in BBB permeability (or something; I'm just theorizing based on limited understanding here), and that's what accounts for such a large increase in potency?  Alternatively, I could simply be more naturally tolerant to 25C and that explains why I needed so much more (I did ~200 ug in the first 40 minutes and was only at a plus 1), especially considering Erny's latest post testifying to the unusually vast range of natural tolerance exhibited by different people to it. 

Anyone who's curious and doesn't mind trying IM but has tried other routes, wait a couple weeks since you last used for tolerance to return to normal and start your injection with the assumption that there will be an increase in potency similar to the figures cited earlier for the polysorbate 80 prep (a huge jump).  If we see a similar big jump in potency we'll know it's most likely simply especially poor absorption through the mouth, rectum, or nasal membranes that accounts for the huge increase with polysorbate.  However, if it's just a little more potent than those other methods via IM it'll be an indication something more is going on with the micelle prep.

Otherwise, in two weeks I can just try insufflation with a 1.5 mg over a couple hours (repeating my IM dose regimen that got me to full effects) instead of IMing it and that should tell me the same thing.


CesarMillan said:


> Has there been any example in the past of a molecule that was subjectively pleasant and non-damaging, only to be later discovered as particularly harmful even in mildly active and infrequent dosages?


Unfortunately, how a drug feels can't tell you anything for sure unless it does something really obvious soon after administration.  One example that comes to mind is bio-accumulation (lead, mercury).  A chemical feels fine or neutral and nothing happens right away, but one of its metabolites doesn't get broken down and builds to toxic levels after repeated use... There's a million other ways drugs can be damaging without being able to tell subjectively, I'm sure.


----------



## atara

Erny said:


> Both for NBOMe-2C-C and NBOMe-2C-B normal doses remain below 1 mg or slightly more than that for most of the people. Less sensitive people may need around 1 mg as a normal dose for NBOMe-2C-C, and they will find NBOMe-2C-B to be either equipotent or somewhat less potent. I need ~ 1 mg for C and ~ 1,5 mg for B. Still, those who are the most sensitive would need around 500 mcgs as a normal dose for C, and perhaps up to 800 for B.



I got _strong_ effects from 250 ug intranasal 25C-NBOMe. 400 ug was one of the most awesome experiences I've had. What sort of ROA are you using? Sublingual seems a little dodgy with this one, with the intranasal/rectal/intramuscular users reporting significantly lower doses than the sublingual users.



> Has there been any example in the past of a molecule that was subjectively pleasant and non-damaging, only to be later discovered as particularly harmful even in mildly active and infrequent dosages?


The naphthoylalkylindoles JWH-018, JWH-019, JWH-073, JWH-122, and JWH-200 come to mind. They pose a significant cancer risk via a hepatic metabolism to epoxides -- the metabolic transformation of these compounds to epoxides was in fact confirmed and is not merely theoretical.


----------



## Cuban

atara said:


> The naphthoylalkylindoles JWH-018, JWH-019, JWH-073, JWH-122, and JWH-200 come to mind. They pose a significant cancer risk via a hepatic metabolism to epoxides -- the metabolic transformation of these compounds to epoxides was in fact confirmed and is not merely theoretical.



"Significant" is debatable as no research exists about carcinogenicity in vivo of these compounds.  Further, provided you aren't putting grams to the head per month (and maybe not even then), the sheer amount of carcinogens in a JWH-XX laced material is less than smoking, comparably.

Note: I'm not saying JWH-XX is safe, per se, but that jumping to the conclusion it is a severe cancer risk is based on fear rather than any data.  As always, proceed with caution and do your own research.


----------



## psood0nym

^Off topic, but I did learn something really interesting in lecture today. My professor said that *only 8 percent of the variance in cases of lung cancer can be explained by smoking tobacco!*  I figured it would be 50 percent or higher. The rest is BMI, exercise, other toxic environmental contaminants, and innumerable other factors we don't know about or suspect influencing different individuals in different ways that we'll never figure out. Tobacco smoking is the STRONGEST indicator we have, and of course it's associated with plenty of other health problems, so the additive effect is that smoking is going to fuck you over somehow, but lung cancer is the one we all have in mind when we think about the risks of smoking, and it's not even that strong and indicator.

Also of interest.  Of the 1.1 percent of all people who have said they used heroin at least once, only 18 percent of that 1.1 percent had used it in the past year, and *only 9 percent of the 1.1 percent used it in the past month!* That doesn't even account for the presumably minuscule amount who are desperately addicted and use every day. The addiction risk is seemingly totally blown out of proportion. 
Granted that doesn't account for other opiate use, but still, fucking heroin! Makes you wonder the real reason people get addicted to drugs if the drugs themselves aren't nearly as addictive as folklore would have us believe.

Here's the page from Gladwell's "The Tipping Point" where the actual stat is explicated (second full paragraph): http://books.google.com/books?id=yB...&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


----------



## pharmakos

psood0nym said:


> Also of interest.  Of the 1.1 percent of all people who have said they used heroin at least once, only 18 percent of that 1.1 percent had used it in the past year, and *only 9 percent of the 1.1 percent used it in the past month!* That doesn't even account for the presumably minuscule amount who are desperately addicted and use every day. The addiction risk is seemingly totally blown out of proportion.



keep in mind, however, that many heroin users feel shame for their addictions and likely might not admit to using.

and wow this thread is derailed.  

question:  how are you guys measuring doses for this stuff?   measuring mass with a .001g or better scale and then using volumetric measurement after that?


----------



## any major dude

thenightwatch said:


> keep in mind, however, that many heroin users feel shame for their addictions and likely might not admit to using.
> 
> and wow this thread is derailed.
> 
> question:  how are you guys measuring doses for this stuff?   measuring mass with a .001g or better scale and then using volumetric measurement after that?



most people that i know who have used heroin may have done it frequently for a short while, but now do it infrequently if at all.  Most people who i know who've really fucked up their lives with opiate type drugs were using things like hydromorphone, suboxone, oxycodone, etc.

and back on topic, yeah, that's how i've been measuring.  Gonna try the insufflated route next time, probably with around 400µg.  450µg  sublingually was pretty mild for me.  Definitely an enjoyable headspace, very chatty, mild visual activity, mostly everything looked quite surreal, but fairly little movement or morphing..  wanna check out that aspect of the effects soon.  How've you guys been insufflating?  Drying out solution or insufflating the liquid?  I wanna get a nasal mist sprayer thing, but haven't found a proper one locally, may ebay it later tonight.  I'm curious about vaping it as well, but am hesitant to try that route.


----------



## pharmakos

any major dude said:


> I wanna get a nasal mist sprayer thing, but haven't found a proper one locally, may ebay it later tonight.  I'm curious about vaping it as well, but am hesitant to try that route.



you may have already considered it, but i believe that there are quite a few brands of OTC allergy medication that come in a nasal spray bottle.  perhaps you could rig up one of those?


----------



## any major dude

thenightwatch said:


> you may have already considered it, but i believe that there are quite a few brands of OTC allergy medication that come in a nasal spray bottle.  perhaps you could rig up one of those?



yeah, i tried to dismantle a flonase nasal mister but that didn't work out so well   May try another brand, but i'm betting i can find an empty one at some herbal medicine hippie type store, or a pharmacy, but i haven't seen any at any of the pharmacies right around my house.  Or i may just insufflate some liquid, i doubt it would be all that difficult, but I don't want to waste any of this rarity, though i'm sure that's pretty much unavoidable .


----------



## psood0nym

I think those heroin numbers have remained pretty consistent across time and changes in culture. Certainly the survey is anonymous and that's how we learned so much about sex back in Kinsey's day when discussing it was "shameful" or dangerous to homosexuals.  People are pretty honest about these things. Anyways, I was just on a fun drug related stat tangent.

I've heard the 25T4, 25N, and 25E NBOMes will be more widely available soonish.

It'd be nice if someone with a decent understanding of the chemical and pharmacological nomenclature could give brief synopses of whatever's been written up on these and put it in one post (maybe even have a mod put it to the front of this thread since it's the biggest NBOMe thread and it may be awhile before these three have much on them). If this has been done already please link me to the location.  

I'm also curious about what exactly accounts for their qualitative differences.  Aren't most of them pretty selective 5HT2a agonists?  25C is my first taste of a psychedelic with such a proportionally high affinity for 5HT2a and I'm interested in any experiential differences between it and other NBOMes with similar affinity profiles (if there are any big differences other than onset time/duration, that is). I know 25D is said to be different but I'm not sure why it should be without knowing more...


----------



## nuke

Google Ralf Heim dissertation and brush up on your German

Aside from that, Nichols published a paper or two about them a while ago.  Here's something somewhat interesting: the iodide derivative is only 60-70% as effective as the bromide derivative in terms of agonist effect at 5HT2A receptors, however the iodide derivative has a lesser effective concentration required for the receptor.  They are all partial agonists, but appear stronger in their agonist effect than say, LSD (~30-40%, whereas LSD is about 15% if I recall correctly).  I'm not sure if phosphatidyl inositol secondary messenger systems were analysed for these either, which would give some hints about psychedelic activity.

The isopropylsulfide derivative looks particularly weird to me, not sure if it was investigated in the literature.

An aside: Ralf also tested out the N-(2-Hydroxybenzyl) tryptamine derivatives and found them to be strong 5HT2A agonists as either the 5-Methoxylated derivatives or not.  Could be interesting compounds to assay.


----------



## nuke

any major dude said:


> yeah, i tried to dismantle a flonase nasal mister but that didn't work out so well   May try another brand, but i'm betting i can find an empty one at some herbal medicine hippie type store, or a pharmacy, but i haven't seen any at any of the pharmacies right around my house.  Or i may just insufflate some liquid, i doubt it would be all that difficult, but I don't want to waste any of this rarity, though i'm sure that's pretty much unavoidable .



I would worry about wasting it, it's insanely cheap to make.  The companies selling it must be laughing all the way to the bank with this one...


----------



## nuke

> Has there been any example in the past of a molecule that was subjectively pleasant and non-damaging, only to be later discovered as particularly harmful even in mildly active and infrequent dosages?
> 
> I wouldn't count MDMA, 2ct7 or Bromo-Dfly as examples of that because they've only caused serious problems when used irresponsibly



Methamphetamine...  When it first became widespread in the US it was actually marketed as a more mellow form of amphetamine.  Even in small doses it seems to cause some pretty nasty toxicity.


----------



## psykap

psood0nym Im going to start research with new NBOMes for next week  .
First I am going to try 500 mcg 25N-NBOMe(dosage 400-700 mcg) , next will be 25G and 25E , I would be grateful if someone will try this compounds, write  more details about them . Im wonder how is dosage for E and G .How do you think ? It will be similarity in dose to 25C-NBOMe ? I didnt buy 25T-4 , 25G seems more interesting .


----------



## skillet

Psood0nym, are you interested in what's published on 25T4, 25E and 25N, or the N-benzyls in general? Nothing is published on those three, AFAIK. As for selectivity, the only compounds that have been relatively widely screened at different receptors are 25I-NBOMe (quite extensive, by Nichols) and 25B-NBOMe (not so thorough, in Heim's thesis). They do seem to be quite selective, though selectivity over the 5-HT2C receptor isn't that high (~10x for 25I).

Nuke, the data in Heim's thesis are EC50's not affinities. And the intrinsic activities published vary quite a lot depending on the assay used - Nichols found IA's of 84% for LSD and 81% for 25I-NBOMe in human 5-HT2A expressing human embyonic kidney cells. I'm not sure how well any of these assays correspond to psychedelic activity in people, or which might be closest. I think using human receptors is a start, but they're always expressed in cells that don't normally express them, so they don't necessarily function in the same way as they would in neurons.

Psykap, unless somebody's tried them it's impossible to say. Even then, appropriate doses seem to vary quite a lot among different people according to Erny.


----------



## nuke

skillet said:


> Nuke, the data in Heim's thesis are EC50's not affinities. And the intrinsic activities published vary quite a lot depending on the assay used


Mea culpa



> And the intrinsic activities published vary quite a lot depending on the assay used - Nichols found IA's of 84% for LSD and 81% for 25I-NBOMe in human 5-HT2A expressing human embyonic kidney cells


True...  that value I used was from the study of LSD and the dimethylazetidine derivative of lysergic acid.  It depends a lot on the assay type used


----------



## psood0nym

psykap said:


> psood0nym Im going to start research with new NBOMes for next week  .
> First I am going to try 500 mcg 25N-NBOMe(dosage 400-700 mcg) , next will be 25G and 25E , I would be grateful if someone will try this compounds, write  more details about them . Im wonder how is dosage for E and G .How do you think ? It will be similarity in dose to 25C-NBOMe ? I didnt buy 25T-4 , 25G seems more interesting .


I hope to try at least one of the newest ones, but as skillet has revealed, there's not much to go by to make recommendations about doses. I'd IM 100 ug, and add 100 ug every half hour until something substantial is going on. It's frustrating that tolerance develops so fast because your sensitivity is reducing as you're titrating the dose, making an estimate of what a full single shot dose should be difficult to ascertain.  Add on top of that Erny's observation that tolerance takes two weeks to return to normal and the massive difference in the sensitivity to these compounds for different individuals and you have months of systematic dosage increases to deal with just to (responsibly) figure out your own dose of a single NBOMe compound! 


			
				skillet said:
			
		

> Psood0nym, are you interested in what's published on 25T4, 25E and 25N, or the N-benzyls in general? Nothing is published on those three, AFAIK. As for selectivity, the only compounds that have been relatively widely screened at different receptors are 25I-NBOMe (quite extensive, by Nichols) and 25B-NBOMe (not so thorough, in Heim's thesis). They do seem to be quite selective, though selectivity over the 5-HT2C receptor isn't that high (~10x for 25I).


Thanks for the info. I read up on Nichol's stuff and it seems that due to unknown complications, esp. possible differential modulation of second messengers, that I can't get as close to understanding broad experiential effects from proportionality of receptor binding as I had naively fantasized. I'll just have to keep stuffing unresearched drugs into myself to see what happens! ... actually some part of me likes that better anyways.


----------



## CesarMillan

I noticed some difference between 25c and 25d with 25d being the more emotionally and visually interesting of the two but in all honesty I don't think I could tell the difference in a blind study

Further to my earlier question too... are there any examples of subjectively favorable substances being significantly harmful... at dosages of .5mg?


----------



## skillet

psood0nym said:


> Thanks for the info. I read up on Nichol's stuff and it seems that due to unknown complications, esp. possible differential modulation of second messengers, that I can't get as close to understanding broad experiential effects from proportionality of receptor binding as I had naively fantasized. I'll just have to keep stuffing unresearched drugs into myself to see what happens! ... actually some part of me likes that better anyways.



Haha  Yeah the more you know the more complicated it gets!

I can't really imagine these are physically harmful, the dose it so low that possible toxic metabolites shouldn't be an issue, they're pretty selective for 5-HT2 and the rapid, long lasting tolerance should prevent any binging. I could be completely wrong, of course.


----------



## farmaz

> That's active at around 400ng



jesus wept!!!

if i were you i would stay well away, 3 doses are gonna be just over 1mg, i hope you got VERY GOOD quality scales to weight that kinda dose out.


----------



## Rasetsu

Hi guys, I would like to report my experience with 25C.

First I've used 500mcg drop on blotter and took it sublingualy. The Effects came out in 15-30 minutes and was very weak, slightly morphing patterns on the floor + mood lifting. The "trip" has ended after 2-3 hrs.

I was very dissapointed and then I decided to try it nasaly. This time I've used 1mg (2 drops with 500 mcgs) and it was like WOW! Full effects came out in about 2 or 3 minutes. It was as visual as hell, like crazy electric carnival. Everything became truly alive, objects, floor, music everything was morphing and changing shape and color from green to pink. Also, there was huge electric flows flying and dancing all over the place. Appreciation of music was also very very cool. There was also very strong CEVs, like colorfull rainbow spirals. I was very surprised, cos there was almost zero body load, very clean experience. As for mental effects it was OK, very nice and clear mind expansion + euphoria, without crazy alien shit and ego deaths like DMT or some stong tryptamines do. 
The whole show has ended in about 3-4 hours. The first 30-60 minutes was the strongest plateau, then 1-1.5 hrs mild plateau, and the last few hours there was still light afterglow effects. I was able to sleep after 6hrs.

It was very cool and magical experience. Very beautiful substance.
Thanks.


----------



## Erny

psykap said:


> psood0nym Im going to start research with new NBOMes for next week  .
> First I am going to try 500 mcg 25N-NBOMe(dosage 400-700 mcg)


Be careful with this one. Several people reported it to be extremely intense at 1000 mcg. I also hear rather often that it feels like being more potent than 2C-C-NBOMe in people's individual experiences. When C feels like being more potent than N - like I feel it - looks to be a less common case. So even 500 mcg may be somewhat too much for a very sensitive person.


----------



## Solipsis

Do you have any indication to believe that 25N-NBOMe shows any of the strange traits 2C-N seems to have i.e. a strong body load or potential for overwhelming sensations? I'm picking up a weird vibe from 2C-N reports even if there are few of them and not put into so many words that I can paraphrase it any better.
These bomamines sound like they don't necessarily feel like their 2C counterparts (well the D and C do to some extent but E and others not?) because for example that peripheral effects are reduced because of the potency of the bomamines. Am I thinking in the right direction?

FYI the C gets picked up soon and the D,E,N and G may be added to the list but I have reasons to postpone experiments with pretty much any psychedelic indefinitely so can't contribute in the name of science and subjective experiences thereof.


----------



## Erny

Solipsis said:


> Do you have any indication to believe that 25N-NBOMe shows any of the strange traits 2C-N seems to have i.e. a strong body load or potential for overwhelming sensations?


I don't get what is meant by "overwhelming sensations" here, may you point at the text this phrase is from? I should do a search on this board myself I suppose, but don't feel interested enough and will probably forget it. Any of potent NBOMe PEAs may develop into sensory overload if you take enough, not just the nitro.

Take a look at my last post here in the DON thread. It is not a minute description but may help us to find a common language.

NBOMe-2C-N has more of unpleasant sensations at the physical level than say, NBOMe-2C-C or I. Nevertheless, these aren't even close to being as bad as those in DON. These sensations aren't a problem in general.

I wasn't feeling too sick or disoriented in plain 2C-N and thus do not want to compare it with it's nbome so not to confuse you. Although some of my friends suffered much more. But they were complaining about it being extremely sedative and about strong nausea that didn't go away when the effects plateaued. I felt no nausea there, but I usually don't have any in the psychedelic PEAs except mescaline in a huge dose. Plain 2C-N had some resemblance with AMT for me, in it's visual effects, sensations and state of the mind itself. And AMT for me has much in common with MDA (though less empathogenic and more psychedelic). That is, in general 2C-N felt close to the way 5-HT releasers feel like, although not being entactogenic or remarkably euphoric. While it is just a weird psychedelic PEA and little else.


----------



## Erny

Blowmonkey said:
			
		

> Do you have any idea why Nichols presumably thinks of 2C-I-NBOMe as something "not psychedelic"..?


What he thinks of it may be very different from what he talks, and what he talks is nonsense anyway. Not only 2C-I-NBOMe is a 5-HT2A agonist with the pharmacological effects of a "psychedelic drug" active in man, but also a psychedelic in the classical meaning of the word, capable of inducing profound states of mind and dramatic experiences of significant spiritual and personal meaning. In my recent report on it (that can be found here) I ranked it with acid, mushrooms and DOM for a reason.



			
				Shampoo said:
			
		

> General consensus seems to be that 25I-NBOH shows no oral activity.
> 
> *Activity via sublingual or parenteral starts at well below one milligram (full activity at 500-700µg) and may be fatal in high doses.
> 
> *Doses lower than one milligram have reported some visual and cognitive activity, though reports are not detailed/well-defined.
> 
> *Doses above one-two milligram(s) have produced profound effects including severe confusion, disorientation, and overwhelming visual distortions.
> 
> *Doses of more than three milligrams may produce seizures and doses of less than ten milligrams may be fatal (shown in other n-benzyl derivatives).


These observations are too general to be instructive. _Doses above one-two milligram(s) have produced ..._some usual phenomena of an overdose mostly similar with that of any other psychedelic drug.

_Doses of more than three milligrams may produce seizures and doses of less than ten milligrams may be fatal_. Reality is a little more complicated of course. One of the reports on worryfying overdoses I was able to find was about a man who took 1 mg of NBOMe-2C-I by insufflation. He literally fell as if shot five minutes later, lost consciousness and had seisures.

But I also had a memorable overdose if we are talking on that subject now. At the beginning of it all in 2007 I couldn't killed myself with 30 milligrams (this isn't a typo and was accurately weighed) of NBOMe-2C-B i/m, when accidentally mislabeled packages. I was able to return to this plane of reality unharmed, without any lasting consequences of this misfortune to speak about. There were several lethal doses in it - if we are to estimate them the proposed way. Nevertheless, I am alive and feeling fine, and I can't do anything about this fact. What's worse, I am not at all unique in being so tough. There is a number of reports about similar accidents found at several russian thematic web-resourses. Their story is always the same: someone accidentially overdoses with 5-10 mgs of NBOMe-2C-C/B/I, and after suffering extreme DMT-like trip gets off with only a scare. People like me or these others who won't die from what was called a "lethal" dose in the citation aren't a rarity, it looks more like this is a norm (or one of several norms to be more precise). For us who are the toughest ones in this regard, NBOMe molecules are nearly as safe as the least toxic structures among 2C-X PEAs (that seem to be the safest psychedelic phenylethylamines I am aware of). 

This shouldn't serve as a cause for optimism towards phentanyl-like structures we are talking about here. There are also people, who are also quite numerous, for whom their safety margin appears to be closer to that of DOX. For them a suicide by means of 20x-30x NBOMe-2C-X overdose isn't necessarily impossible. And there are also individuals, not as numerous (but it makes no difference; that they exist is just enough), who will find NBOMe-2C-X to have the safety closer to that of benzodifurans like bromo-dragonfly (it would probably be better to say they have no safety reserve at all). These latter individuals will be the first to get into dangerous or even lethal accidents, if we are to see such in the near future. 

While there is no way to find out beforehand who is who, or what may happen if somebody will take one of these chems.


----------



## mi5

although the doses are far lower, the prices seem so much higher that they cancel each other out

thus the main thing to consider is whether the experience is really different enough or interesting enough


----------



## Blowmonkey

> What he thinks of it may be very different from what he talks, and what he talks is nonsense anyway.


I'll agree on that.  I thought it was funny when I was pointed towards that video by someone. I first thought it was the DOI version he was talking about (as that one's rumoured to be inactive), then perhaps 2C-I-NBOH (I'm not good at recognizing structures obviously) but it was pretty apparent it was 2C-I-NBOMe he was talking about after 20 times replaying it.


----------



## nuke

Erny said:


> What he thinks of it may be very different from what he talks, and what he talks is nonsense anyway. Not only 2C-I-NBOMe is a 5-HT2A agonist with the pharmacological effects of a "psychedelic drug" active in man, but also a psychedelic in the classical meaning of the word, capable of inducing profound states of mind and dramatic experiences of significant spiritual and personal meaning.



Eh...  He's been studying psychedelics since 1969, I don't think I've ever heard him talk about anything zany like say, McKenna.  Maybe he or someone he knew assayed them orally, didn't find activity and dismissed it.  Shulgin himself generally only bothered to assay compounds orally.

Which video are we talking about?

There's a neat interview from him there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64zZqkKLUGs


----------



## Blowmonkey

I think he came to that conclusion extrapolated from the rats he was working with. 

It's this one:


Blowmonkey said:


> Fast forward to 22:10:
> http://vimeo.com/16782003


----------



## nuke

If he was doing discrimination studies it's very well possible the rats may think that the NBOMe compounds exact a different action than LSD (rats can respond strangely).

Perhaps a perceived lack of activity in the rat and a lack of oral activity in humans led him to this conclusion.  I'm guessing he's not terribly interested in layman examination of the myriad chemicals he's investigated so maybe didn't come across the bioassay results posted around here.


----------



## any major dude

I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that the 25X-nBOMe's (can't remember which ones specifically, know 25I was among them though) elicited the "head twitch" that usually correlates to psychedelic-ish activity in humans, can't find the link at the moment though...  will post it if it turns up.  

Also, anyone have any more info on the  N-2-hydroxybenzyl or N-2-methoxy tryptamines?  Read the Heim paper, but the info there was a bit limited.

Still waiting to give the 25C another go.  Think i'm pretty settled on the insufflation route.  What all doses have you guys tried via that ROA?


----------



## skillet

any major dude said:


> I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that the 25X-nBOMe's (can't remember which ones specifically, know 25I was among them though) elicited the "head twitch" that usually correlates to psychedelic-ish activity in humans, can't find the link at the moment though...  will post it if it turns up.



I'm sure they do, I don't recall seeing it published anywhere though.

I haven't watched the whole Nichols lecture yet that Blowmonkey posted, but at around 25:50 he says that 25I-NBOH is not hallucinogenic. Maybe he explains why earlier in the lecture? It seems unlikely that it wouldn't be to me, but I'm not sure anyone's talked about trying any of the NBOH's, NBMD's etc. - Erny!?

I missed this:



			
				Shampoo said:
			
		

> General consensus seems to be that 25I-NBOH shows no oral activity.
> 
> *Activity via sublingual or parenteral starts at well below one milligram (full activity at 500-700µg) and may be fatal in high doses.
> 
> *Doses lower than one milligram have reported some visual and cognitive activity, though reports are not detailed/well-defined.
> 
> *Doses above one-two milligram(s) have produced profound effects including severe confusion, disorientation, and overwhelming visual distortions.
> 
> *Doses of more than three milligrams may produce seizures and doses of less than ten milligrams may be fatal (shown in other n-benzyl derivatives).



... but is it actually the NBOH or is that maybe a mistake?


----------



## stumblestoprepeat

For what it's worth, I'm still alive after 1.5mg insufflated today! 

TR forthcoming, but I would recommend taking less than this, as well as knowing for SURE the concentration of 25c in your solution.


----------



## invert

What's the best/easiest (two different things, perhaps) way of preparing this for insufflation, if one doesn't have microgram scales? Is it okay to obtain the desired quantity by a combination of milligram scale measurement and dissolving in alcohol and then snorting the solution? Or would there be a better solvent than alcohol to use?


----------



## Solipsis

Of course there is much uncertainty but is there some sense to it that overdose risk is more idiosyncratic than DOX or benzodifuran overdoses. I say this because the activity range itself is wider and I haven't heard about very specific physical overdose phenomena with the NBOMe's like severe vasoconstriction or something like a heartattack from physical overstimulation.

Are NBOMe's more likely to produce central overexcitation, seizures indeed and even serotonin syndrome? Is it possible serotonin agonism is so potent and specific that this is where the problem lies with overdoses?
It doesn't make too much sense though why LSD is so physically safe compared to the NBOMe's though. The latter are still phenethylamine derivatives of course so I can very well just be totally wrong. Perhaps instead of relatively specific cardiovascular failure it is more of a global failure where strokes and embolisms and a lot more things become likely to be a cause of death. 

Just speculating out loud... Erny let me look at some subjective information about 2C-N, which I have paraphrased and quote something. You mention nausea and sedation, while I don't mean to generalize these seem like secondary effects stemming from a bodyload that manifests itself a certain way, not always the same for everyone in every situation. Strong rushing sensations from top to bottom are another (random) example I can think of. Body loads can be very different qualitatively and quantitatively and be experienced as something positive or negative.
From the modest reports of 2C-N that I read I took away that the bodyload often sounded "difficult", and people call it weird like you do.

Some people sound like they expect quite nice things of DON but personally I would not want to take the risk taking a DOX with the same 4-pos group as 2C-N, with 2C-N having the reports that it has.
Similarly an NBOMe sounds like a particularly bad idea, but the potency may be a reason for 'peripheral' effects to be absent, if they are indeed the origin of bodyloads. DON may be more potent than 2C-N as well, but being an amphetamine that may make it worse again.


----------



## doodahman1969

any major dude said:


> I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that the 25X-nBOMe's (can't remember which ones specifically, know 25I was among them though) elicited the "head twitch" that usually correlates to psychedelic-ish activity in humans, can't find the link at the moment though...  will post it if it turns up.
> 
> Also, anyone have any more info on the  N-2-hydroxybenzyl or N-2-methoxy tryptamines?  Read the Heim paper, but the info there was a bit limited.
> 
> Still waiting to give the 25C another go.  Think i'm pretty settled on the insufflation route.  What all doses have you guys tried via that ROA?



Doses I've tried (all insufflated):

750 mcg
1mg
1.5mg
2mg

Higher doses have a speedier bodyload, more dissociation, and seem to produce longer trails visually. The comedown off doses 1mg and higher leaves me with 1-2 day strung out feeling. 

Changes to my HPPD include more visual snow and an increased sensitivity to color contrast.


----------



## Erny

any major dude said:


> Also, anyone have any more info on the  N-2-hydroxybenzyl or N-2-methoxy tryptamines?  Read the Heim paper, but the info there was a bit limited.


Both N-(2-methoxybenzyl) and N-methyl-N-(2-methoxybenzyl) tryptamines were tested up to 40-50 mgs and were found to be inactive.



			
				skillet said:
			
		

> I haven't watched the whole Nichols lecture yet that Blowmonkey posted, but at around 25:50 he says that 25I-NBOH is not hallucinogenic. Maybe he explains why earlier in the lecture? It seems unlikely that it wouldn't be to me, but I'm not sure anyone's talked about trying any of the NBOH's, NBMD's etc.


NBMDs were mentioned it this thread earlier, their subjective potency aligns with Heim's data. NBOH-2C-I as I remember was the pioneer compound in earliest amateur experimentation, the first one to be found fully active via routes of administration other than oral. NBOH and NBOMe are subjectively equipotent, their effects aren't similar but often it is not easy to define the actual difference, or distinguish it from something unique to the trip, set and setting. I am only familiar with NBOH-2C-B.

And when people tried to take NBOMe and NBOH 2C-I orally, they sometimes felt threshold effects as a result of minor transbuccal adsorbtion, these effects were too weak for the chemicals to show themeselves as hallucinogens indeed.


----------



## amanitadine

Solipsis said:


> Of course there is much uncertainty but is there some sense to it that overdose risk is more idiosyncratic than DOX or benzodifuran overdoses. I say this because the activity range itself is wider and I haven't heard about very specific physical overdose phenomena with the NBOMe's like severe vasoconstriction or something like a heartattack from physical overstimulation.
> 
> Are NBOMe's more likely to produce central overexcitation, seizures indeed and even serotonin syndrome? Is it possible serotonin agonism is so potent and specific that this is where the problem lies with overdoses?
> It doesn't make too much sense though why LSD is so physically safe compared to the NBOMe's though. The latter are still phenethylamine derivatives of course so I can very well just be totally wrong. Perhaps instead of relatively specific cardiovascular failure it is more of a global failure where strokes and embolisms and a lot more things become likely to be a cause of death.



In the the 25B-NB thread in ADD from a few years ago Erny makes mention of some near fatal overdoses with some overzealous dosing with the 2C-I derivative I believe. Speculated as to be the pronounced adrenergic activity, which makes sense....I think the details were in post #38.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=388351

The whole thread is a great read, the first time I remember the N-benzyl PEAS being mentioned in ADD, and its great to see the ADD alumnis wrap their heads around it....and Erny delivering the goods:D


----------



## any major dude

Erny said:


> Both N-(2-methoxybenzyl) and N-methyl-N-(2-methoxybenzyl) tryptamines were tested up to 40-50 mgs and were found to be inactive.



Thanks a bunch for the info man, were ROAs other than oral attempted?


----------



## invert

Sorry for asking this again, and I'm sorry if the answer is somewhere in this thread already, a search hasn't revealed anything...

1) Is alcohol the only (readily available) solvent for 25C-NBOMe? 
2) Roughly how much alcohol would be needed to dissolve a given mass of 25C-NBOMe?
3) Is insufflating alcohol (in the quantities needed for dissolving a dose of 25C-NBOMe) a reasonable thing to do? Indeed, is it sensible to insufflate a solution at all, or is it liable to slip out of the sinus cavities and down to the stomach?


----------



## reformer

*Dose, Effects and Side Efects*

25C-NBOMe*HCl

Subject wore double layer of nitrile gloves and a basic cloth respirator mask for protection during handling.

Dissolved in alcohol to 20ug/ul, then applied to filter paper circles, dried and used buccal/sublingual. Subject feels that buccal absoption is potent and that there is no need for insufflating liquids or injecting.

Note: all trials took place in the course of a single week, and tolerance played a role in trials 2 and 3

trial 1 = 3 x 100 ug simultaneous

trial 2 = 1 x 625 ug

trial 3 = 5 x 100 ug simultaneous (this trial also included 10.6 mg gel-cap oral 4-AcO-DMT); followed by 2 x 100 ug @ t = +3hr; followed by 2 x 100 ug @ t= +4hr

subject [39yo male @235lb] didn't feel any discomfort, nausea, jaw clenching, twitching, need to change positions or symptoms of serotonin overload. In trial #3, BP and HR were monitored at 3 times: +3hr, +4hr, +5hr.

results:
T/Sys/Dia/HR

+3hr/138/89/85
+4hr/138/80/70
+5hr/136/82/60

Usual course of experience: Come-up with much energy over one hour, although no nausea, as mentioned. A very sugary sweet and non-threatening colorful plateau consisting of tons of that blueish neon "Avatar movie" color. Whirling dervishes of neon blue and pink. Not very introspective, but oh so pleasurable. Once: Lay in bathtub with led lights flickering about and warm shower coursing over subject's tan tien center... Subject just feels immense euphoria and intense swaths of pastels. Another: Discovered why people like some band called shpongle and danced time away looking out the balcony onto a snowy evening pierced with christmas lights. ~3hr Plateau followed by very smooth and gentle sinking back to earth. Never really arrive back though, and simply feel warm, refreshed, clearheaded and energized.

Subject wonders where this stuff was his whole life! It is as though LSD was recreated as a mentally unchallenging woosh of color and lift. There were a couple of hairy moments where the setting was disrupted by neighbors or delivery guy, but issues that could have resulted in the trips going bad simply did not.

Note on trial #3: Subject feels that 25C-NBOMe is the nitrous of psychedelics, and 4-AcO-DMT is what he calls a "Sleepadelic". So he sought to create a psychedelic speedball by combining the two's upper and downer effects (of course these are NOT really uppers or downers). As mentioned, this trial was scheduled for 500 ug 25C-NBOMe + 10.6 mg 4-AcO-DMT. The experience was not what subject was hoping for, and so he elected to increase the 25C-NBOMe to let it overtake the trip from 4-AcO-DMT hands.

I hope this helps educate folks about the workable range of this chem, and aids in harm reduction.


----------



## atara

Solipsis said:


> It doesn't make too much sense though why LSD is so physically safe compared to the NBOMe's though. The latter are still phenethylamine derivatives of course so I can very well just be totally wrong. Perhaps instead of relatively specific cardiovascular failure it is more of a global failure where strokes and embolisms and a lot more things become likely to be a cause of death.



LSD is a (relatively low-efficacy) partial agonist, NBOMe are very high-efficacy agonists. The exception is the NBOMe-2C-B-FLY which may or may not prove safer in overdose.

I have not experienced "scary" physical side effects from NBOMe-2C-C at any dose. At worst very high doses produced mild tachycardia which may have been from simple anxiety. For an NBOMe to have a lethal dose below a milligram would make it on par with the most potent synthetic toxin ever developed (VX); even carfentanil has a higher LD50 (due to an abnormally large therapeutic index of 10000!).

I have had success insufflating aqueous sol'n of NBOMe-2C-C.


----------



## IGNVS

woah woah wait a second what are you saying about the nbome-2c-b-fly?


----------



## psood0nym

invert said:


> Sorry for asking this again, and I'm sorry if the answer is somewhere in this thread already, a search hasn't revealed anything...
> 
> 1) Is alcohol the only (readily available) solvent for 25C-NBOMe?
> 2) Roughly how much alcohol would be needed to dissolve a given mass of 25C-NBOMe?
> 3) Is insufflating alcohol (in the quantities needed for dissolving a dose of 25C-NBOMe) a reasonable thing to do? Indeed, is it sensible to insufflate a solution at all, or is it liable to slip out of the sinus cavities and down to the stomach?


Water is the solvent I used to IM it. Be honest, did you go and snort alcohol? 

Nice report reformer: In what order did you take the 25C and 4-AcO-DMT?  I could see 25C being problematic in combination with other psychedelics due to the rapid development of tolerance it's responsible for and it's possibly displacing the other psychedelics from 5HT2a due to its high affinity. 

The psychedelics on the far right side of this graphic (thanks Dondante) might make interesting combos with 25C due to their 5HT1a affinity, though:


----------



## invert

psood0nym said:


> Water is the solvent I used to IM it. Be honest, did you go and snort alcohol?


I've not yet taken NBOMe-2C-C... I was waiting to get a reply about whether alcohol is okay to snort or not (in the relevant quantities) and whether snorting a solution's a good idea at all (i.e. whether it'd tend to slip out of the sinus cavities and thus be wasted). Thanks for your reply!  So would you advise against snorting alcohol? I haven't the faintest clue whether that'd be a bad idea. 

Re: solution... I was under the impression NBOMe-2C-C isn't very soluble in water, but I guess it is if you used it thus. 

I suspect I'll go for sublingual/buccal administration for now, since it seems it isn't too much less potent than insufflation.


----------



## psood0nym

> So would you advise against snorting alcohol? I haven't the faintest clue whether that'd be a bad idea.


I advise you to take  a shot of vodka using a neti pot first to see if it's a good idea.


----------



## reformer

*Follow Up*



psood0nym said:


> In what order did you take the 25C and 4-AcO-DMT?



Basically at the same time, although the ROAs differed. Subject took the gelcap of 4-AcO-DMT immediately prior to to tucking the blotts into buccal compartments (did the 4-AcO-DMT first so he didn't have to drink and swallow past the hole-punch blotts). The gelcap was taken with ~8-10 oz water and both were after haven eaten a medium meal 3.5 hrs previously.

You raise a great point about rapid tolerance though, I hadn't considered that. Very interesting... Curious if sinking 4-AcO-DMT experiences can be "rescued" with small amounts of 25C-NBOMe.

I wonder if there is any information we can glean in that regard from the success that was witnessed by our subject in redosing 25C-NBOMe to overtake the 4-Aco-DMT? Its highly speculative, but there could have been some displacement occurring, as the set and experience rapidly changed toward uplifting with additional 25C-NBOMe.

That chart you posted is nicely informative! I am so curious as to whether cross-mixing extremes will muddy the waters or will provide an intense contrast.

Final note: Subject slept for ~7.5 hrs afterward, took 200 mg 5HTP and 500 mg L-phenylalanine nutritional supplements upon arising on an empty stomach. In retrospect, subject will not do this again. He was in a mellow mild mood and these nutritional supplements seemed to force a hurried attitude onto his morning (prolly mostly the L-Phe). A medium sized breakfast and a cup of coffee or tea would have been a better idea.


----------



## any major dude

psood0nym said:


> The psychedelics on the far right side of this graphic (thanks Dondante) might make interesting combos with 25C due to their 5HT1a affinity, though:



hmmm.... i may have to smoke a bit of DPT on my next venture with this one...


----------



## Solipsis

I promised some quotes about 2C-N for Erny, it's from our own B&D thread. I mentioned it because 25N-NBOMe might have similarities.



> 2C-N has just become available to me, but im not sure whether or not I should get it.
> 
> The only thing at this point that's really turning me away from it is all the horrible things ive been hearing/reading about physical problems with it. Intense gastrointestinal problems, massive diaharia, vomiting. Doesnt sound so fun...although the experience sounds incredible.





> Thizz, that was one report by MGS.
> 
> Most 2c's cause GI problems for alot of people and none for others.
> If you have the opportunity to try it, id go for it.


 


> Not only that report, but ive heard it from the one person I know who's tried it. She said it made her feel as if she'd drank a gallon of milk (she's lactose).
> 
> I guess that's not a lot of people, but it's a lot to me when considering nasty GI problems. Not exactly my favorite kind of problems
> 
> Ill have to think long and hard about this. It seems like something thats a bit too good to pass it up, but idk....
> 
> I wish there was a bit more info out there for me.



OK, so I may have exaggerated how wide-spread reports about crazy body loads on 2C-N would be but then again there aren't many reports in general to begin with...

This talk about adrenergic activity might be quite nasty combined with other body load effects, that's worrying as well.

About the drugs in the 5-HT2A/1A graph on the right: I would be careful about combining them with NBOMe's, again regarding this adrenergic activity. (5-MeO-)DMT raises heartrate and bloodpressure significantly if only for a little while. But I have had bad reactions combining DMT with stimulants and would personally not take it with something with significant adrenergic activity. Well, it still seems unclear how much of that there actually is but that is why I say be extra careful until we know more.

4-AcO-DMT with a methylone comedown has launched me into a panic attack and I tend to get weird breathing troubles with DMT + several different stimulant combinations.

All the drugs here displayed on the right might produce similar effects in combo.


----------



## reformer

*NBOMe exhibit quite poor efficacies*



atara said:


> NBOMe are very high-efficacy agonists.



Hmmm.. I am not drawing the same conclusions from Heim's dissertation. in fact, the NBOMe efficacy seems distressingly low, i.e. borderline antagonist. 

Viewed in another light though, perhaps it's only the terrible efficacy that prevents the NBOMe-2C-X series from possessing absolutely unusable dose/response curves; given the incredibly tight binding they exhibit.

Take a peek at the data here:

http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/receive/FUDISS_thesis_000000001221

Click on the pdf link titled:

3_RalfHeimPharmakologischerteil.pdf 

Go to tables 3:11, 3:12 and 3:14, 3:15.

The highest efficacy agonists are actually unmodified DOI and 2C-B. All the 2C-X and FLY series of NBOMe exhibit efficacies of ~20-40%, quite poor.

So... either the binding makes up for the crippled efficacy, or the assays Heim used do not tell the whole story in terms of in vivo efficacy.


----------



## skillet

reformer said:


> or the assays Heim used do not tell the whole story in terms of in vivo efficacy.



This. Heim's assays measures intrinsic activity in causing contraction of rat tail arteries. Nichols gives much higher values, around 80%, for PI hydrolysis in HEK cells expressing the human 2A receptor, which is probably a better assay.


----------



## reformer

skillet said:


> This. Heim's assays measures intrinsic activity in causing contraction of rat tail arteries. Nichols gives much higher values, around 80%, for PI hydrolysis in HEK cells expressing the human 2A receptor, which is probably a better assay.



Thanks for that info, I was able to find a link to Braden's Dissertation which included the data you referenced... For example Table 4:3, reproduced here (see Below). Great stuff here!

However I don't really agree with you about the HEK cell/ectopic expression model being "better" than the rat tail artery contraction... although I guess I don't understand what you mean by "better". Because actually, the artery contraction is much more relevant to in vivo situation of serotonin response and 5HT2a activation, as the full complement of molecular interactions is available. In the HEK model, those poor lil' 5HT2a receptors are being artificially introduced and don't necessarily have their required complement of partners.

I see from the dissertation that was used to originally set up the model, that they (Nichols) has a lot invested in it:

http://docs.lib.purdue.edu/dissertations/AAI3263617/

But I think caution is in order, as the model that gives the highest efficacy isn't necessarily the best model... it might be the least accurate but the most precise.

Could it be just that Nichols work would be less well received and less impactful if his novel chemical inventions weren't very efficacious? Usually model selection by a scientists "just happens" to be the one which best presents their findings.

Sorry for the cynicism, but scientists are a funny, egotistical lot that have a hard time setting up experiments that really and truly attempt to destroy their hypothesis... they usually set up experiments that support them.


----------



## skillet

It's good to be a bit cautious. I meant better in that Nichols assay uses the human form of the receptor, in human cells, albeit embryonic kidney cells... I was looking at this paper for the data, btw. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17000863

You may be right about the artery contraction assay measuring a broader range of pathways than Nichols PI specific assay though. I don't know what triggers the contraction, but I guess it's due to increases in i[Ca2+], which is mostly, but not entirely, PI mediated.

I think the relative values for different compounds in the same assay do give useful information, but it's obviously not possible to compare different compounds by different assays.

And I think the main motivation for Nichols choice of assay was convenience, I can't really imagine that they tried a few methods and picked the one that gave the highest values.



> but scientists are a funny, egotistical lot that have a hard time setting up experiments that really and truly attempt to destroy their hypothesis... they usually set up experiments that support them.



A lot of the time this is probably due to the need to publish successful results and acquire funding, I don't much like it either.


----------



## reformer

Oh yes, great point... I had overlooked the fact that the cell expression system was using the human receptor while the rat artery obviously contains only the rat receptor. Thanks for cluing me in. Obviously there can be no equivalent arterial assay in humans, so I guess we are stuck considering the data from both systems.

I agree that the best way to look at the data from these systems is via internal comparison and not by trying to say that one absolutely mimics our psychedelic experience better. So this gives us relative efficacies across a series of NBOMe, but as you noted, does little to tell us the magnitude of absolute efficacy.

Rereading my earlier post, I realize it comes across as a bit too cynical; I don't mean to imply any unethical or disingenuous manipulation on the part of the scientists using these models, as skillet pointed out they might be considered victims of their field and its mechanisms of funding/publication.


----------



## Ralf_4

any more trip reports on the 25c? recently had a 1mg trip and it blew me out of the water, seems as though theres a lot of visuals a lot of euphoria and possibly one of the best experiences ive ever had (not including +4s mind) anyone else feel this could be a major psych in the making?


----------



## psood0nym

^I'd say it has a lot of potential -- very few unwanted side-effects, shorter than LSD but not too short, extremely visual, and pretty easy to handle: sounds like a popular one to me. The biggest issue is that it's not active if you swallow it. If it was ever sold widely on the street I see a lot of people  simply swallowing it out of ignorance and assuming it's crap. It also pisses me off how much vendors are ripping us off with the NBOMe's, considering that something like 25C is around an order of magnitude less cost per dose to manufacture than 2C-C. Hopefully as soon as they're is some more competition costs will come down due to how easy it is to lower prices while still retaining high profitability compared to other RCs. 

I ended up doing 25C yesterday. I did ~1 mg IM all at once with no tolerance. It definitely hit harder than when I did 1.5 mg over a few hours (presumably due to that rapid tolerance), but was still entirely manageable (low plus 3). I got "first alerts" within 5 minutes. I can report now that I was essentially plateaued within a half hr using this ROA. IM is probably the best method for those wanting to find their dose with this chem because it hits you quickly enough that you can still use a booster dose before tolerance sets in too much.


----------



## Solipsis

What about a dose of around 250-500 micrograms that is taken this way? (Obviously not as an initial try, there would be testing for idiosyncratic reactions):

Dissolve a known amount of 25C in a measured volume of vodka (does IPA work? would it be recommended the way I propose) and wetting a known amount of mannitol with this solution so that the mannitol will either dissolve or at least be completely submerged and swirled for homogeneity. Then let it dry so that the 250-500 ug of 25C are now in 50-100 mg powder that is insufflated.

Any ideas about that? Also about tolerance? I assume this is a superior way compared to sublingual tincture since the absorbed amount is more constant as opposed to swallowed saliva. Of course by insufflation it seems best not to do so much at once that there is a drip for the same reason.


----------



## amanitadine

psood0nym said:


> ^I'd say it has a lot of potential -- very few unwanted side-effects, shorter than LSD but not too short, extremely visual, and pretty easy to handle: sounds like a popular one to me. The biggest issue is that it's not active if you swallow it. If it was ever sold widely on the street I see a lot of people  simply swallowing it out of ignorance and assuming it's crap. It also pisses me off how much vendors are ripping us off with the NBOMe's, considering that something like 25C is around an order of magnitude less cost per dose to manufacture than 2C-C. Hopefully as soon as they're is some more competition costs will come down due to how easy it is to lower prices while still retaining high profitability compared to other RCs.
> 
> I ended up doing 25C yesterday. I did ~1 mg IM all at once with no tolerance. It definitely hit harder than when I did 1.5 mg over a few hours (presumably due to that rapid tolerance), but was still entirely manageable (low plus 3). I got "first alerts" within 5 minutes. I can report now that I was essentially plateaued within a half hr using this ROA. IM is probably the best method for those wanting to find their dose with this chem because it hits you quickly enough that you can still use a booster dose before tolerance sets in too much.



Interesting, this almost raises more questions than it answers. I know people vary wildly in their responses to these compounds, but this is a bit much. I assumed with your last tests that 1.5mg was as a result of the instant tolerance, in that you titrated up from 50mcg. But here you report 1mg I.M. (which I would have assumed would have been a much more surefire, predictable ROA) taking you to a low plus three. MattPsy reports a solid plus 3 with 1-200mcg smoked, Atara got to a very intense place with 550mcg intranasal, and sublingual dosages are all over the place. I am wondering if due to the lipophilicity of the molecules a lot of it is getting caught up in muscular fat with I.M. administration? I wonder if subcutaneous administration would be more effective? Or rectal for that matter. Hmmm. I've only come across a few poorly translated hyperlab reports of intravenous administration, but 1-200mcgs seems to be a rolling plus 3. More information needed!

I am eager for more reports to come filtering in.....especially in regards to alternate ROAs.

Cheers


----------



## psood0nym

Solipsis: I guess that would work.  If you need to liquid measure I'd just keep it in a syringe (inside a toothbrush holder or something to make sure it doesn't squirt out accidentally).  I'm sure such a small amount would would dissolve in as little as 10 insulin units.  Ten insulin units of water will evaporate pretty fast; then you just scrape it up and snort it (or just cut off the tip of a new syringe and squirt 10 units into it, then squirt the 10 units into your nose -- such a small amount should stay in there w/o dripping).

Regarding tolerance: conservatively, in my experience I'd say that substantial tolerance develops within an hour, making any redosing substantially less effective after that point, though it certainly possible substantial tolerance develops even faster.   

amanitadine: Yes, the 1.5 mg dose was cumulative over time.

He's going to make a proper post eventually, but I will report that a highly experienced friend of mine has told me he used 25C intravenously at ~1 mg and had a lucid plus three experience with little to no anxiety. Though this is a single experience, _with some ambiguity regarding the actual dose_, the fact that a higher level dose (definitely >500 ug) was not overwhelming via this route is evidence that reactions to the chemical in different people really do vary very widely, and that the differences cannot be attributed to absorption differences in individual's membranes, the drug getting caught up in muscle fat when IMd, etc. 25C is a weird one in this regard. I have no idea how to explain it unless my chem is cut (but I have no reason to assume it is since most of us are probably getting it from the same place and Erny has already reported substantial variation in dose between individuals). Be sure to start low. There's no way to know which group you fall into beforehand (for instance, I'm within the normal dosage range with phenethylamines and tryptamines, but I'm apparently a hard head when it comes to 25C).


----------



## reformer

*Liquid Insufflation- A must try.*

ROA, Nano-trip report:

psood0nym has it dead on with the liquid insufflation. It is amazingly effective. Anyone researchng this compound would be really missing out if they didn't try the liquid route.

The 25C-NBOMe*HCl salt is sufficiently soluble in water that you can dissolve it in that without using any alcohol at all, which makes it easy to simply insufflate the small volume of water/NBOMe directly rather than drying and trying to hope micrograms of powder make it through the insufflation journey.

Someone convinced me to try a liquid insufflation method and it was so incredibly potent and effective that I would highly recommend it.

Also recommended to explore potency enhancement with this ROA before going for high doses. Subsequent trial with liquid insufflation shows thresholds at 5-10 ug, and full ++ at 100 ug.

With 1.4 mg liquid insufflation: 

Recently dissolved 25C-NBOMe in water to 7 mg/ml and then removed 2 X 0.1 ml volumes and insufflated these volumes in immediate succession. This delivered (0.2 ml) x (7 mg/ml) = 1.4 mg 25C-NBOMe. This delivered too much (for the potency of this ROA). Previous trials at 1 mg buccal/sublingual didn't prepare this psychonaut for the journey which awaited.

It was overwhelming. Insane... Was not prepared. Effects were *on* hard by 5 minutes, +++ by 10 minutes, peaked by 1 hour at the most, had an approximately 5 hour plateau and ~3 hour comedown. At the height of effects, was completely incapacitated for ~2-3 hours. Had never felt a come-up this rapid, but that was likely due mostly to the large dose.

Other than a disturbing manifestation of high body temp, and some initial hypertension (measured by BP/HR monitor; perhaps both perhaps made worse by the shockingly rapid and unexpected come-up), the trip was surprisingly gentle and friendly. Especially considering that the dose was 50% greater than tried before, and the liquid insufflation ROA is easily 3 times more potent than buccal/sublingual blots... so the effective dose was ~3 times greater than any that had been tried before. 

Had body tremors, time-shifts, trails, and intense, Tron-hued visuals. Very euphoric, with a thrumming body-load. Most of the time was spent spinning away inside, in an introspective journey that seemed to be cued and guided by external lights and movement as I watched out a window. In all though, most of that journey was indescribable due to the dose. Seemed to be very clean and electric, but not too stimulatory, despite the negative heat and hypertensive effects. Movies seemed to have great importance attached to their message, but not as deep of secret messages as Lucy might make apparent. The comedown was gentle, helped along by some mixed JWHs, and food was possible by t = +7 (in small amounts).

If the bodyheat and hypertension turn out to be spurious and nothing to worry about, then the liquid insufflation ROA with ~500-800 ug (5-8 ug/kg) will probably be deemed optimal for a general strong +++, depending on physical and psychological tolerance to the PEAs.


----------



## Lombergerh

I'm curious why we don't see some other compounds from this class at the market.
Simply  because NBOME's the most potent (than lower Ki, then substance more potent, isn't it?) or something else?

And why there are NBOME's but no FLY's?
I think many peoples will like to research something like Chloro-Dragonfly or 2C-D-Fly.

Sorry for offtop.


----------



## FlippingTop

Free samples of 25C-NBOMe are being given out from my current RC vendor. I will get mine soon, but I am not quite sure when I will be brave enough to try it. Does it fully dissolve in anything? My scales are 0.01 at the moment, and that just is not good enough...


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## abrad84

I just dissolved a sample in water. It seemed to dissolve easily with a little heat leaving me with a 2mg/ml concentration.


----------



## invert

abrad84 said:


> I just dissolved a sample in water. It seemed to dissolve easily with a little heat leaving me with a 2mg/ml concentration.


Roughly what temperature of water was needed to dissolve it? And does anyone know how high a temperature would be too much, i.e. would risk destroying the chemical? Thanks.


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## abrad84

I just held a lighter under the glass vial for a couple of seconds. It didn't even come close to boiling but I could see the powder dissolve. I'm guessing these compounds are pretty stable but don't quote me on that.


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## reformer

*soluble in RT tap water*

Actually, a solution of 7 mg/ml in room temperature tap water was easily produced by putting in a small tube, adding water with a pipette and mixing up and down with the pipette. Complete dissolution to the listed concentration occurred in less than two minutes upon mixing. At this concentration, a "dripless" dose of 0.1 ml provides 700 ug.

I would definitely go _sans_ heat before applying temp to such a precious substance.


----------



## psood0nym

amanitadine said:


> Interesting, this almost raises more questions than it answers. I know people vary wildly in their responses to these compounds, but this is a bit much.


At first I assumed the wide reported variance in dose could be largely attributed to inaccuracy of measurement due to the submilligram dosages.  Certainly that could still be true in some cases, though it looks more and more like the dose variance is genuine.  Though the variance is unexpected when one considers the narrower dose response effect of phenethylamines, massive dose response differences are not unheard of with psychoactives in general, e.g. 5X salvia sends me to another world, but 6Xs that, 30X, may only be enough for another person to feel body tingles.  I had half assumed this might be due to natural variation in the number of kappa opioid receptors in different people's brains, but on second consideration it seems strange that if kappa opioid agonism has such a radical effect on human consciousness that it should vary so drastically as holding such an assumption would imply. Perhaps adding the NBOMe alters the properties of the molecule such that it is subject to unexpected bottlenecking points during its journey through the body. I'm curious to hear any empirically supported theories people have to explain the wide variance of dosage with this (or any drug, actually --  as I'm not that well versed in pharmacology).


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## scooby79

I agree too, Insufflation is the way to go with this compound. Sub-lingual just wasn't having the effect I was reading about in some reports. Could feel something but wasn't very impressed. Insufflation almost blew me away at the difference  lol


----------



## any major dude

my 450µg sublingual dose was a bit underwhelming, still enjoyed it don't get me wrong, but i definitely want to go farther.  Planning to try liquid insufflation in the next couple of days.  I should have no tolerance as my last psychedelic experience was 12mg of 4-HO-MET 15 days ago.  I'm thinking 500-800µg insufflated in 0.5mL filtered tap water should be a nice strong dose, haven't decided on an exact amount yet, and i'm thinking some will likely be lost as its hard to keep up with every µg, ha.  What all doses & techniques have you guys tried for liquid insufflation aside from the ones mentioned?


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## scooby79

I always wonder if I'm losing any insufflated, I do get a little drip in the back of my throat, barely noticeable, but with such small amounts of compound barely can be a lot. I definitely know I'm losing sub-lingual.  

Doses I've tried have been ~0.5-1mg (insufflated), higher doses if I've built up any tolerance, and you build tolerance to this quick. It is not worth it to do this 2 days in a row, at least in my opinion. 

I think my next experiment will be IM, I'm wondering if it is even worth it to try this one IV?


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## raggedy_acid

Would this work rectally?


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## scooby79

I don't see why not, very similar to insufflation. I couldn't tell you from experience though, haven't tried that way. I'm sure it would be better than sub-lingual though


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## atara

Probably; you'd need to make sure that you got it in all the way. Rectally inserting a submilligram amount of powder means you'll probably lose some of it on entry, so you'd need an anal syringe.


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## any major dude

liquid insufflation definitely blew sublingual out of the water, though i did double my dose from the previous session as well.  Came up pretty quickly, felt the effects in <5min & was having some interesting visual activity at 20.  Interesting euphoric push at that level as well, I usually feel at least some anxiety when on any psychedelic, especially during the come up, this was totally anxiety-free.  I did have a few beers before i dosed, but that isn't a terribly uncommon thing for me to do.  Gonna write up a TR in a little while.


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## psood0nym

I took ~750 ug intramuscularly followed by ~250 ug IM about a half an hour later.  I think I prefer this compound's doses staggered like this, otherwise, as others have alluded to, by this ROA at this dosage level the speedy onset can have you second guessing the accuracy of your measurement during the come up (never a pleasant experience).  I can say, again, though, that for me 1 mg IM with little or no tolerance puts me at a low plus three. 

It's combining quite nicely with ketamine.  I'm going to watch "Secret of the Kells," now.  This should be a splendid snowy evening.


----------



## ingo_1978

Does anyone know if the freebase is soluble in water or whether it will degrade if stored in water. I think vaping the freebase would be to difficult to get an accurate dose and was going to use rectal ROA.


----------



## scooby79

I don't think its worth it to do rectal for such a small amount, but that's me. 

As a side note, I did some 4-aco-mipt and it wasn't taking off like I would have hoped so I thought I'd do a little 25c-nbome to help out. Wow was I in for a surprise, great combo. Everything is so wavy and very euphoric. I'm 3 hours in and still having a blast lol


----------



## psood0nym

^I get why you say that. Rectal administration's advantages are chiefly in that it avoids the drip, the burn, and the congestion of nasal administration while typically being more potent than oral. It makes a lot of sense for a lot of compounds. But when you're using 1 mg or less those disadvantages of nasal administration aren't really a factor. For such a small amount nasal is simply faster than preparing an oral syringe and a solution and sticking it up one's ass and then having to wash the syringe off, and that's plenty sufficient to argue for its superior convenience over rectal.


----------



## ingo_1978

I don't have a milligram scale and was thinking of starting a 0.5mg and was going to dilute it and use a syringe to measure it out and it seemed easier to squirt it up my ass than to snort the fluid


----------



## Aleph

Even if you have a microgram scale, I think it is easier to dilute and plugging to snort the liquid.


----------



## ingo_1978

does anyone know if the freebase is soluble in water?


----------



## Addam

Freebases of any chem are typically insoluble in water, I believe.


----------



## ingo_1978

Would be soluble in say Vodka... not sure I'm keen on using that rectally though or could I add citric or ascorbic acid to the water to get it dissolve?


----------



## Addam

Yes, acidifying a solution would convert it to a salt that would be water soluble. I'm by no means an expert with NBOMe's, so someone else may have more helpful advice, but I feel this would be preferable to attempting with alcohol.

ADD: Someone else with more experience should elaborate on which liquid would be best for what you're looking for. _If it were me_, I'd salt it.


----------



## iblewafuseinmymind

ingo_1978 said:


> I don't have a milligram scale and was thinking of starting a 0.5mg and was going to dilute it and use a syringe to measure it out and it seemed easier to squirt it up my ass than to snort the fluid



sounds painful. proportion to use minimal ethanol so say .2 ml is 500 mics. wait for it to evaporate on a baking dish under a heat pad. should recrystalize fine. scrape and snort. a shot of ethanol in the butthole sounds rude and harsh.


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## CesarMillan

I got it to dissolve in plain water with about 5 minutes of shaking in a small bottle


----------



## Rorthron

Addam said:


> Yes, acidifying a solution would convert it to a salt that would be water soluble. I'm by no means an expert with NBOMe's, so someone else may have more helpful advice, but I feel this would be preferable to attempting with alcohol.
> 
> ADD: Someone else with more experience should elaborate on which liquid would be best for what you're looking for. _If it were me_, I'd salt it.



freebase was insoluble in dH2O as expected. added the equivalent of diluted HCl and stirred for a long time. It dissolved. Bioassay with said solution with 120 ug of equivalent freebase intranasally + 60 ugs sublingually was proved active (and beautifully so, if I may unscientifically add) 

A very promising compound.


----------



## partyraiser

hello,

 .. i dissolved the freebase in 97% ethanol, works fine. 

i first make a "allergic" test with about 80-100µg. a little trippy feeling.
can't say more for firsttime. (no bad feeling or some bad symptoms)


----------



## IGNVS

does anyone have more reports of sublingual trials using emulsifiers?


----------



## partyraiser

sorry for my bad english first :/

 .. can someone explain again as I turne  the freebase into hcl. get using simple technique. 

can i  take some little dest. water with a pH value of pH ~ 4-5 and try the 
freebase to dissolve in this? then evaporate the water and I have 25C-NBOMe HCL? thank you


----------



## Solipsis

What method of administration are you planning on using? You might want to just leave it in solution for some methods. But perhaps only salt a portion of what you have, it may have a shorter shelflife as the dissolved cation.

If you evaporate the water it will become more acidic because the volume decreases and the concentration of the muriatic acid rises. If it is only a small volume of water to begin with the amount of acid may not be that significant. I've never tried evaporating everything and don't know if you end up with a little moisture because of the hydrated acid?
And if you start off with too much and concentrate it then snort or plug it may burn. Again: if you start with only a little this may be negligable.

It seems like a simple question and perhaps it is but it puzzles me a little  I am interested in other peoples comments.


----------



## partyraiser

thank for first. 

I would like to use it sublingual. yes please outher comments.

hmm.. it is not soo easy 

::EDIT:
 .. argg the probleme that you tell, the problem with the water evaporate. i know it from other tests with other substances. you have finaly a (little red) oily substance. 
I have not come by myself on this.


----------



## Rorthron

Solipsis said:


> If you evaporate the water it will become more acidic because the volume decreases and the concentration of the muriatic acid rises. If it is only a small volume of water to begin with the amount of acid may not be that significant. I've never tried evaporating everything and don't know if you end up with a little moisture because of the hydrated acid?
> And if you start off with too much and concentrate it then snort or plug it may burn. Again: if you start with only a little this may be negligable.



HCl is volatile so it should evaporate with the water, probably faster. So the liquid will not become more acidic.

On any case there is no need to lower the pH that much. Use some basic chemistry math! Calculate the molarity of your compound in the water and use the equivalent amount of HCl. In my case I added 5 drops of 0.35 molar HCl for about 12 mg of 25C-NBOMe. The pH dropped to about 6 and was enough to dissolve it all. This pH has no discomfort whatsoever for intranasal or sublingual administration


----------



## MattPsy

Yes, HCl evaporates at the same rate as the water.
I have prepared hydrochloride salt in this manner, with the slight difference in that I mixed the freebase in sufficient volume of hot IPA for full dissolution, then added 1.5 molar equivalents of 7M HCl solution.


----------



## partyraiser

thats sounds great :top: thank you very much guys !


----------



## Solipsis

MattPsy said:


> Yes, HCl evaporates at the same rate as the water.
> I have prepared hydrochloride salt in this manner, with the slight difference in that I mixed the freebase in sufficient volume of hot IPA for full dissolution, then added 1.5 molar equivalents of 7M HCl solution.



Oh yeah I forgot they are azeotropes. Sooo it will not become extremely acidic if you evaporate it, it should pull each other along at a certain point.


----------



## rainey

why dont you just buy blotters? (all those having problems measuring i mean)

i can buy 350mcg blotters so why is it on blotters if it cant be swallowed?

simply for measurement? you would think the place selling it would tell you that you cannot do the obvious thing with the blotter and swallow it?


----------



## reformer

rainey said:


> i can buy 350mcg blotters so why is it on blotters if it cant be swallowed?
> 
> simply for measurement?



Yep... that's pretty much it. 

You can re-dissolve the NBOMe out of the blot with a couple of water extractions and insufflate the water solution for full effect. Or you can sublingual the blot directly for reduced effect, or you can swallow it for next to no effect.



rainey said:


> you would think the place selling it would tell you that you cannot do the obvious thing with the blotter and swallow it?



They do. They clearly state "Not For Human Consumption" lol.

But, yeah, I understand what your asking, but that wouldn't be practical: If they told you to not consume it specifically by swallowing, then they would be be suggesting by implication that you can consume it via other ROAs.


----------



## rainey

reformer said:


> Yep... that's pretty much it.
> 
> You can re-dissolve the NBOMe out of the blot with a couple of water extractions and insufflate the water solution for full effect. Or you can sublingual the blot directly for reduced effect, or you can swallow it for next to no effect.
> 
> 
> 
> They do. They clearly state "Not For Human Consumption" lol.
> 
> But, yeah, I understand what your asking, but that wouldn't be practical: If they told you to not consume it specifically by swallowing, then they would be be suggesting by implication that you can consume it via other ROAs.



Thanks for the advice I appreciate it.


The place sending me these has said `yes, with these ones you do(swallow)`


????

Could they have manufactured these in a way that they do work by swallowing? Is that possible/likely.

Have no idea how to do water extraction what if I plugged the blotter would that work?

I`m certainly no novice to a wide variety of rc`s but I dont know anything about chemistry so these extraction techniques etc are beyond me.

Wondering now if i`ve wasted my money lol


----------



## reformer

rainey said:


> I dont know anything about chemistry so these extraction techniques etc are beyond me.



Well, they really shouldn't be beyond you, it would simply be a matter of soaking your blot in the smallest possible drop of water, and then getting all the water out by pressing (using tweezers at at steps). You'd want to "resoak" the blot a second time, which repeats the extraction into a second drop of water. Squeeze out the blot again and insufflate the water drops. 

I wouldn't use tap water, but distilled/bottled water is better. Any additives the blot vendor added should only enhance extraction of the NBOMe from the blot into water solution, but this is assuming that your blot is populated with the salt form, not the base form. It's critical to check this point, as if your blot is populated with the base form, the water solution you use will have to be slightly acidic to extract the NBOMe. So, check the form on your blot.


----------



## Rorthron

reformer said:


> Well, they really shouldn't be beyond you, it would simply be a matter of soaking your blot in the smallest possible drop of water, and then getting all the water out by pressing (using tweezers at at steps). You'd want to "resoak" the blot a second time, which repeats the extraction into a second drop of water. Squeeze out the blot again and insufflate the water drops.



water is probably not the wisest choice if the blotter has  been prepared with the freebase 25C-NBOMe, which is insoluble in water. Ethanol or vodka might be better for extracting the active from the blotter. But then alcohol is not suitable for insuflation, so the usual process of converting it to a salt is in order (see above)


----------



## proxopata

Hello guys,

so is it possible to solve freebase 25c-nbome in 96% ethanol and then simply drink it ? is there any material loss? let's say i dissolve 20mg (20.000ug) in 100 ml ethanol, then 1ml of solution = 200 ug ? and simply drink it or add to a drink ?


----------



## skillet

It's possible yeah, but it won't do anything - many people have said it doesn't work orally. You really need to convert it to a salt and insufflate, plug, inject or take it sublingually.


----------



## IGNVS

less gobldygook, more trip reports!


----------



## moe.ron

hmm been sitting on some of the blotters for a little while now, kind of nervous to take _any _phenethylamine after my bad time on 2C-P a month or so ago, especially a very potent one that will probably take me back to a some what similar place. Is 300 mg a good ++ dose or too much? Really would like to wade in gently to this one, but I may just have to hold my breath and take the plunge before too long.

And also I thought the blotters worked fine if held in mouth for 15-20 minutes or so? Pretty sure u dont have to soak the blotter in anything and then hold that in your mouth. May be wrong but I dont think so


----------



## Cogumelo

^
You mean 300ug right?


----------



## moe.ron

^right... Im savig the 300 mg dose for my second trial


----------



## Solipsis

If you're gonna soak blotters then you might as well take a snortable carrier and evaporate the solution over that. At least you can insufflate it then, which - if you keep the amount of carrier modest - should produce minimal drip and therefore minimal loss of dose.

That way you actually know how much you are absorbing... otherwise you mostly know how much you are absorbing maximally.


----------



## reformer

*i  nbome*



moe.ron said:


> kind of nervous to take _any _phenethylamine after my bad time on 2C-P a month or so ago, especially a very potent one that will *probably take me back to a some what similar place*.



I'm sorry to hear about the 2C-P, did you post an experience report regarding it? I am trying to do lots of background research before 2C-P might come in and would be interested in reading about your experience if you have posted it. _[EDIT: Found it on erowid. Reading now... Thanks for sharing brother, I really appreciate that you gave us your experience]_

Back to the topic at hand, I wouldn't be too worried about 25C-NBOMe taking you to that same headspace that 2C-P did... I haven't tried 2C-P myself, but have tried 2C-E and all of it's mental "difficulties" (to put it mildly), and imho 25C-NBOMe simply doesn't have the capacity to pulverize the ego in the same fashion. I actually had a fairly negative experience on 1.4 mg of 25C insufflated... but even then, in the midst of a "will I survive this?!" trip, 25C didn't have that emotional juggernaut aspect to it.

So, of course everyone is different, and it's best that you wait out the time until you feel not only comfortable, but also confident that the time is right. But, having said that, 25C-NBOMe is a new, different beast. It is not your grandma's phenethylamine, its much more friendly.



moe.ron said:


> And also I thought the blotters worked fine if held in mouth for 15-20 minutes or so? Pretty sure u dont have to soak the blotter in anything and then hold that in your mouth. May be wrong but I dont think so



Your right that if you want to do sublingual then you don't have to extract the blotter. BUT... sublingual is a poor ROA for this compound. Seriously. A much much much better ROA is to insufflate the 25C... so if yours is on blotter, then you would have to extract it to get it into liquid so that the liquid can be insufflated.


----------



## any major dude

IMO, 25C is pretty easy on the ego, etc.  Some even get an inflation type effect, which is rare for a psychedelic.  Regardless, i don't think i've seen any reports of people claiming them to be very similar to their parent compounds.


----------



## IGNVS

hey could you guys write up some TRs for everyone?


----------



## Beanfreak

Hi guys,
I've got 5 x 350µg blotters on there way to me. Unfortunately I ordered them before I checked on here!! Otherwise I would've ordered freebase! Doh.

Can someone give a definitive explaination on how to do liquid extraction please...

How do I tell if I've got freebase or salt on my blotter?

What's the best solution for extraction (for insufflation) if I've got freebase?
I'm assuming dissolved water is best for salt.

How long should I leave the blotters in the solution before 'wringing' them out?

Sorry for all the questions!


----------



## Rorthron

Beanfreak said:


> Hi guys,
> I've got 5 x 350µg blotters on there way to me. Unfortunately I ordered them before I checked on here!! Otherwise I would've ordered freebase! Doh.
> 
> Can someone give a definitive explaination on how to do liquid extraction please...
> 
> How do I tell if I've got freebase or salt on my blotter?
> 
> What's the best solution for extraction (for insufflation) if I've got freebase?
> I'm assuming dissolved water is best for salt.
> 
> How long should I leave the blotters in the solution before 'wringing' them out?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions!



I've never extracted anything from a blotter (I've done other extractions, though  ) but I've been working with 25C-NBOMe lately, so I can give you some informed suggestions.

a) read the last pages on ths thread. information on how to convert the freebase into a salt is there.

b) I believe you can't know if it's freebase or salt. better ask the vendor! 

c) freebase should be soluble in ethanol, so do like this 
1. soak your blotter  in a reasonable amount of ethanol. 
2. after some stirring for about 5 minutes remove the ethanol and save it. 
3. Add more ethanol to the blotter and do the same. 
4.join both liquids and let evaporate throughly
5. add dH20 and convert into a salt (see above). The amount of dH2O should not be too large, just enough for you to insuflate. and thus use the appropriate amount and dillution of HCl. It may be easier to work with all the blotters at once but if something goes wrong, there goes your investment!


----------



## Beanfreak

Cheers Rorthron, Thats really helpful.

Let me just clarify then (cos I'm dumb and dont want to waste any!!)... 

I can't get any ethanol but I can get 95% ABV polish vodka which based on other peoples reports will be fine, correct?

And once all the ethanol has evaporated, I'm left with freebase powder. 
Then I just add the right amount of dH20 to insufflate (would 0.2ml per 350µg blotter be ok) and a very small amount of dilute HCL to lower the pH enough that the solution becomes slightly acidic.
You said approx pH 6 is good in a previous post.

This is my final 25C solution?


----------



## Rorthron

Beanfreak said:


> Cheers Rorthron, Thats really helpful.
> 
> Let me just clarify then (cos I'm dumb and dont want to waste any!!)...
> 
> I can't get any ethanol but I can get 95% ABV polish vodka which based on other peoples reports will be fine, correct?



Yup. I expect so.



Beanfreak said:


> And once all the ethanol has evaporated, I'm left with freebase powder.
> Then I just add the right amount of dH20 to insufflate (would 0.2ml per 350µg blotter be ok) and a very small amount of dilute HCL to lower the pH enough that the solution becomes slightly acidic.
> You said approx pH 6 is good in a previous post.
> 
> This is my final 25C solution?



0.2ml is fine for insufflation, but it's a tiny amount! More likely than not you will loose some actives that will be on the wall of your container. Better use more than that  to wash your vodka container and evaporate with a fan until you are left with a few drops in the bottom. 

3 drops in each nostril are enough before dripping to the back of your throat starts to happen. In my eye dropper 6 drops are about 0.4 ml ( this varies a lot from instruments and solutions, so check, and double check, the average volume of a drop from your eye dropper)


----------



## Tornchemist

I just finished laying 300µg of 25C-NBOme onto 2 sugar cubes (could have fit on one but I had to double the volume of the suspension liquid).

I'm pretty sure this will be a fairly accurate dose because I used an adjustable micro pipette calibrated to 300µL to lay the cubes.

Going to bioassay in the morning, ROA sublingual.


----------



## IGNVS

let us know how that goes. is there any reason you are not experimenting with a surficant? lecithin is real easy to come by


----------



## Tornchemist

Normally I would but I was only preparing a small batch from a new supplier, and I ran into the solubility issue at around 11pm and didn't have anything on hand.


----------



## El Pablo

I'm just coming down off my initial test with ~200µg of 25C-NBOMe.  Overall impressions where that this was a good starting dose but that higher doses will be much more rewarding.

The effects built over the first 20 mins to a peak lasting around one and a half hours and then tapered off to baseline around 6 hours after I started.  OEV and CEV where mainly fractal with little morphing and the mindfuckery and audio distorsions where similar to what I get after taking shrooms.

Something that I wasn't expecting was the nausea which hit about 45 mins in and lasted a good 15 mins.  It was easily manageable but I'll defiantly hitting the ginger and eating something before my next trip.


----------



## Rorthron

Here's the results of 3 initial tests with varying dosages of 25C-NBOMe

Subject: male, ~70 kg 

All tests with self administered liquid Hydrochloric solution in dH2O 

Trial 1 
about 120 ug insufflated  + 60 ug sublingual. 
Took about 30 minutes to start manifesting anything. Some nausea, not too much, though, and some vasoconstriction. Extremities got numb, cold all over the body and some shivering. Real psychedelic mindspace, but not too intense. a comfortable ( if not for the physical symptoms) ++. At T+2.00 back to baseline, and at T+2.30 able to sleep. (I always sleep easily)

Trial 2 ( 1 week after)
~240 ug insufflated.
First signs at T+0.15 Again numbness of the extremities and cold all over. The same nausea but a bit stronger. Much more psychedelic than the initial trial but, unfortunately a difficult trip full of negative thoughts. Mild Mydriasis. This state lasted about 1:00. I can characterize it as a low +++. Some CEVs and OEVs, but due to the low psychic state nothing was pleasant. Able to sleep at T+4.00 after some late hour movie to get out of the bad effects 


Trial 3 (2 weeks after last trial)
~420 ug insufflated
First signs at T+0.05. Finger tips insensitized. This caused some anxiety that dissipated gradually through the trip. As a music player, my finger tips are particularly sensitive, and it was disturbing to loose it. Much more cold all over the body than in previous experiences. At T+0.20 it was a full blown psychedelic experience. Strong CEVs with multiplying realities and dreamscapes, OEVs with disentangled and morphing objects. It was deep emotionally but my body felt pretty weak and in the first hour, continuously shivering. Also some persistent light nausea and intestinal discomfort. I was listening to chilling music and let myself be carried with it. I do not know if I could stand a more pop beat. It was very introspective, and music appreciation was considerably increased. For the next 2 hours I was entering successive realities resurfacing to "reality" every 15 minutes or so. A clear and solid +++. Anxiety level dropped during the trip, which was nice, but sensitivity in the finger tips was only regained at T+3.30.  Got off the plateau at T+2.45, but was still tripping hard for at least 1.00. This was an overall positive experience, comparable to some of my best 4-AcO-DMT, although lighter on the mind. One is more sharp focused and reality is more easily switched on or off.  
At T+ 4.30 could go to sleep, but was difficult, during to strong imagery still on the mind. In the morning, a slight headache, probably due to lack of sleep. 

Overall a real positive substance that shows itself better at dosages >300ug. Differently than others I did not find it particularly euphoric. Quite the contrary. I don't imagine myself socializing or in a rave with it. YMMV of course.  

Next trial will be 500 ugs, in a month or so.


----------



## rainey

Tried one and a third blotters on sat night. Onr blotter is 350ug so just under 500ug in total. I placed the blotters in my upper gum between gum and cheek as I was advised it was more effective to sublingual. Was 3 hrs into 250mg of 4mmc. Superb! Best rc i`ve ever had with no doubt. No visuals of any kind but definately sight distortion. Very smooth indeed an felt no neg effects whatsoever. This could be addictive.

Reccomend this one to everyone. Would have no problem out socialising on this.


----------



## StuckMojo

1 300ug blotter nothing.
2 300ug blotter slight perception change
3 300ug blotter faint faint faint oev
It took 5 300ug squares under tongue  for the visuals to fully flower. Great experience. Sleep difficult.


----------



## rainey

StuckMojo said:


> 1 300ug blotter nothing.
> 2 300ug blotter slight perception change
> 3 300ug blotter faint faint faint oev
> It took 5 300ug squares under tongue  for the visuals to fully flower. Great experience. Sleep difficult.



change supplier

isnt that obvious?


----------



## any major dude

sounds like it could be at a lower dosage than stated.  However, i wouldn't chalk it all up to that until i'd tried some alternate ROAs.  Under the tongue didn't work very well for me, but nasally.... bbaaaaaaaazzzzzzzzzzzing!


----------



## CaptainAmerica

What do you guys think the threshold dose would be for a 170lb male?
Sublingual and/or insufflated?


----------



## any major dude

generally body weight doesn't play into these types of things as much as one would think.... dunno why that is.  Gathering from what i've read here & elsewhere threshold insufflated or sublingual with surfactant is 100-200µg


----------



## harpua81

nearjat said:


> 'ng'? Fucking nanograms? I would stay far away. Or fucking wear a respirator in a clean room when handing.



lol exactly what i was thinking.


----------



## Lawrence

mask + glove. its absorbed by the skin and its more true thank you think. dont try tio smell, nothing special.

No ceilling or patterning with this ?


----------



## El Pablo

Lawrence said:


> its absorbed by the skin and its more true thank you think.



Have there actually been any reports of this happening or is it becuase the potency is similar to LSD that everyone assumes it works in the same way.

I saw a post on hipforums a while back with someone dissolving 200ug in water and then spreading it over his forearm.  He said it gave him a slight rash but no other effects.


----------



## psood0nym

Don't waste it trying to get it to go through your skin. Not even LSD actually goes through the skin. It's a myth. 


> And yesterday I was talking to Nick Sand, and Nick said, "I made a solution of LSD in DMSO…" -- DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) is a chemical that greatly enhances absorption of other chemicals through the skin -- he says, "…I painted it on my skin. Nothing happened." A concentrated solution and nothing happened! How did this very meticulous Swiss chemist get the LSD into his body? I don't know.


Source


----------



## IGNVS

should be vaporizing 250 mics tomorrow or monday, ill let u all know how it goes! wish me luck


----------



## any major dude

i'm particularly curious about that ROA... do tell how it goes.


----------



## nasir~

any major dude said:


> i'm particularly curious about that ROA...


So am I


----------



## reformer

*base or salt?*



IGNVS said:


> should be vaporizing 250 mics tomorrow or monday, ill let u all know how it goes! wish me luck



Can you tell us if the form of the NBOMe is the base or the salt (presumably HCl, if it is the salt)?

Thanks for any info!


----------



## IGNVS

doh! i should have based it before i tried smoking the bloter, what am i thinking! hmm that would be inefficient and dificult.. 

perhapse i shouldnt have tried it like this. 


ok, so i cut a 500ug blotter square in two and layed a half on foil and vaporized it with two buddies of mine (they each had their respective half of a blotter also). in about five or so minutes i felt a different headspace. it took a while to feel much more than that and when i did it wasnt much. almost no visuals. way underdosed on that one. ill write up a good report. 

on friday or saturday i will be trying an experiment with a full 500ug blotter and some lecithin


----------



## IGNVS

at this level it would be an awesome party aid.

god, music still sounds so AWESOME, crisp. flavorful. deep and spread, but not like butter, more like glass with crystals in the perpendicular. its like a subtle taste on your skin. 

but its not so strong at this dose, a little over threshold. plus two on the shulgin scale perhapse. only the lightest visuals; if you close your eyes and relax and open them it appears as if things are simultaneously growing and shrinking.. its not like breathing, something sharper, then it fades. a big thing is a sense of smell. the sense washes over the whole body, its subtle though. real clean feeling, like 70-80ug of lsd and with no distinct "come up" it just kind of materializes out of thin air with no dificulty (for the mind), and only a litttttle queasyness in the stomach for about 12 mins. after that its not a body trip or a head trip. your clear headed, extremely lucid, and its almost like your body isnt there; it certainly isnt alarming, though you can still feel it like regular life, there isnt much to it other than when you take a deep breath and let your senses work real nice. a very good psychedelic feel all around. very specific though.  

i can only imagine how a larger dose will play out  (this isnt the report btw, just a few things jotted down)


----------



## amanitadine

^^^ I had a complete and rolling plus 3 on 350mcg of the freebase vaporised. Came on  fairly slowly still, (10 mins...slow compared to DMT!) lasted a good 5 hours with longer after effects, and was a beautiful and crisp experience. I had more of a mental trip than I was expecting, and I imagine a larger dose could be quite the fucking ego-crusher. Maybe it is the power of suggestion, but it indeed feels so much more specific of a psychedelic, so crisp and refined.  Really nice compound all around, the most interesting new serotonergic I have tried in ages.  Will all of the 2C's now grow an N-benzyloxy tail, is this part of the conspiracy? 

Don't attempt to smoke the freebase without a microgram scale. The stimulation and vasoconstriction present at 350mcg was by no means insignificant, and I imagine an overdose by this ROA would be very unpleasant, let alone  potentially deadly.

Cheers


----------



## PhyllipThylamine

Great advice & useful info, THANK YOU!


----------



## IGNVS

i got mild vasoconstriction. i couldnt feel it but i could see my veins shrinking into my arm. i still felt strong. actually this would be very good for kung fu. felt like i could pull the energy right out of the ground and into my fist. 

i would also like to mention i used an albuterol inhaler about an hour before the experiment. i got more effects than my two friends (they are also smokers, and i havent smoked in over a month)

my guess is most of it didnt absorb because it was in the salt form, what would be a good way to convert it to freebase and still be able to smoke it in that low of a quantity? 

fryday im gonna eat it then the next experiment is going to be injection, going to do everything right of course so i dont inject bacteria or anything. im thinking of starting at 100ug IV


----------



## psood0nym

^I never actually tried it but the following was told to me by vecktor in Advanced Drug Discussion regarding vaporizing DPT HCl:

"if quick and dirty freebasing is required just mix the salt well with sodium bicarbonate and then vapourise, the sodium bicarbonate will react as soon as the salt melts, freebasing the material."

It seems like you're not scared of needles, though, so I'd recommend just IMing as it's the easiest way to control the amount you're getting and there's zero material loss.  Plus you respond to the dose quickly and consistently, which I find really important with 25C because you've got such a limited time to hit the level you're going for before tolerance pushes it out to reach. With vaporizing maybe you're getting near all of it, maybe some pyrolyzes some times and not others -- who knows?

I assume those who have vaporized it aren't getting any type of DMT "flash" like experience or rush?

P.S. Don't eat it IGNVS, it won't work that way.


----------



## amanitadine

Well truth be told, i got stronger effects from 200mcg of the HCl vaporized than 200mcg of the freebase! If this holds true after more experimentation than I would suggest there is decomposition happening with the freebase, although this is sort of counter-intuitive I Know. Frustrating one has to wait so long between experiments to get results that aren't totally skewed. . . 

And to confuse matters more, I found the 350mcg  of the fb vaped *much* stronger than 600mcg of the HCl taken intramuscularly. I don't know if due to its lipophilicity it is getting caught in the muscular fat and not making it to the brain in time before "gates close", but the difference in potency was dramatic. Curious how i.v. would pan out....but Psood, you had a friend who experimented with this and said 1mg was required? Hmmmm....

IGNVS - so you are vaping blotter? Do you know for sure if it is the FB or the HCl that is on the paper? I wouldn't bother with any sort of extraction in all honesty. I am assuming some vendor is selling pre-laid blotters? Crazy

So far I've only done the few experiments with the 25C and one shot at the 25B, which in all honesty I couldn't tell any difference between  it and the 25C, but admittedly more work is needed before such conclusions are reached.

Oh and no, no DMT flash. A smooth transition over 5-10 minutes or so. Very nice.


----------



## psood0nym

^Interesting. Maybe I should try vaporizing, then. I might be able to do it soon. I'll post about the results when I do. 

The IV experiment was not immaculately measured, but he was most definitely getting higher amounts than you are reporting needing for vaporization. I have to attribute it to variability in innate (not acquired) tolerance, which I agree is weird since both my friend and I react normally to most other psychedelics, but then again lots of things about this compound seem to be defying convention (e.g. the HCl more potent than the freebase for vaporizing). It seems like a lot of our reports could owe to inconsistent dosing due the difficulty of accurately measuring such small amounts and the compound's insane tolerance effects, but I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure.


----------



## amanitadine

^^^ Exactly, too many variables in this equation to even begin to conclude much. 

somebody just pointed out to me that several vendors are stocking the freebase. Why I wonder? Were they hoping to corner the market on smokeable 25C? :D If so then it is hilarious that I had better success with the HCl. But, that could be a very premature conclusion on my part, based on only one experiment. Haven't really seen any other reports to base my experiences on yet either.


----------



## IGNVS

when i said eat it i meant like stick it in my gums after lubing up with some dishsoap (kiddn'). 
im gonna nom on that for a while not swallow the thing.


----------



## VandiLLisM

*25c-nbome*

Its hard to get megathread answers.  To dose, im going to liquid measure.  Can i drop the shit on a gummi or blotter to sublingually take? i heard blottter doesnt work with this stuff but i see ppl saying to do it. or should i just drop the water in my mouth? Im going out and i want to take a few hits with me without taking my whole solution.


----------



## any major dude

it works on blotter if you take it sublingually, nothing happens if you swallow it.  Some people have had more success placing blotters between the gum & inside of your lip.  However sublingual is the least reliable & efficient ROA.


----------



## IGNVS

alright today is the day of my next trial with a full 500ug. im thinking of either using a small dab of some shampoo (sodium lauryl sulfate) mixed into a drop of lime juice mixed with mouthwash as a surficant and going sublingual (lip and gum really) or atempting to wash the stuff off of the blotter and snort it with a pipette. 

i just had some pancakes and apple cider mixed with orange juice (not from concentrate) and it had a surficant effect in my mouth (feels dry and irritated and a little soapy), do you all think this mix might work?

i also have black currant juice, which is a known mao-b inhibitor (60% inhibition). i noticed marked vasodilation on its own, which i believe might counteract some of the vasoconstriction of the 25C. im not a doctor nor do i know much about the cardiovascular system. what are your thoughts on this everyone?


----------



## psood0nym

^If it's not too late I'd skip the MAO-B inhibitor. Deprenyl with phenethylamine psychedelics has resulted in a lot of worrisome symptoms. See this thread.  That might be because it's a non-competitive MAO-B inhibitor, but still.  In any case, if black currant juice is a smooth muscle vasodilator (if it's sold to promote sexual health) rather than a skeletal muscle vasodilator it's probably not going to do any good for psychedelic aches and pains from vasoconstriction.


----------



## IGNVS

alright, good to know. bout to drop in a few minutes here. should i let everyone know how it goes nassally (tried and true) or exeriment with the shampoo?


----------



## psood0nym

> alright, good to know. bout to drop in a few minutes here. should i let everyone know how it goes nassally (tried and true) or exeriment with the shampoo?


If I'm not too late I vote for shampoo, but admittedly I'm only voting that way because I've never had the chance to advise someone to put soap in their mouth.  Didn't you say you had it on blotters?  Is that the only way you have it? If so, aren't you going to need quite a bit of water to get it to permeate out if you want to do liquid nasal administration? With that much water it'll go straight through you nose and down your throat.  In this particular situation rectal administration might be the best bet. However, since that route hasn't been attempted at all to my knowledge it's a bit risky (perhaps it's like DMT and doesn't work that well rectally).  If I was going to do any kind of liquid administration of something on blotters I'd cut the blotter into pieces and back load them into a needless syringe and let them soak for like a half hour first.


----------



## MattPsy

No, it works great plugged, at least as well as insufflation. The membranes there are quite similar in many ways.

Oh, and as for smoking it, yes, the HCl salt works far better than the freebase, the freebase shows signs of decomposition when smoked whereas the HCl evaporates cleanly.


----------



## amanitadine

^^^ thanks, that was my experience as well, nice to have some confirmation.


----------



## IGNVS

trip report up. pseudo you were too late lol. your right on the idea of plugging it, but the way we did it seemed to work just dandy


----------



## atara

New street name for this stuff: _intensity_. Any takers?


----------



## Solipsis

I will take the stance that it's dubious whether it belongs on the streets and when it does and there is no easy name for it perhaps that will prompt people to actually explain what the stuff is about.
Don't know who thought of it but it sounds non-descriptive.


----------



## invert

Solipsis said:


> I will take the stance that it's dubious whether it belongs on the streets and when it does and there is no easy name for it perhaps that will prompt people to actually explain what the stuff is about.
> Don't know who thought of it but it sounds non-descriptive.


Very much concur with the above sentiments; but - if any NBOMe-x were to be called 'intensity' - it should surely be an NBOMe-2C-T-x, for decent wordplay's sake. An 'intense CT'.


----------



## Solipsis

Just call 25C-NBOMe "NBC" already lol. You know you love those TLA's.
On the other hand: don't. It's just hard to support street names, but I have a much bigger problem with the non-descript ones, especially outrageous names like 'Flying Panda' (made that up) or ones that are simply too unfortunate like 'Benzo Fury'. Commercialization should not be something we support but on the other hand I don't want people killed on the streets because there is no name to keep (other) compounds that fit on blotter separate from acid.
So if people necessarily have to, why not abbreviate to '25C' ?


----------



## IGNVS

"im trippin on a bunch of letters man"


----------



## Mitchi

Hmm. Maybe... A bit long though

Then again, I'm in no hurry


----------



## atara

The reason for the name was, ironically, that being _not_ as overpowering as the DOx's and instead being more sensual (in common with MDA) it held wider appeal than the previous blotter-sized substance, and since it would probably be sold and popular, it was good to draw a distinction between this and another, very distinct, and also popular, blotter sized substance.

DOx had kind of a cult status, but due to the duration and body load they didn't have much chance of catching on. This is shorter than LSD and _too_ friendly on the body; people I've shared this with enjoyed it immensely. So what I'm saying is, yeah, I kind of see it catching on.

I was tripping today and it drifted into my head. Possibly more descriptive than 25C, which I used to call it, from a layman's point of view, but also cursed by that in that it gives it broader appeal, when it is better that people might study before they try things. I tend to find myself in social situations on this, explaining what I'm on, and it seemed like a good summary.


----------



## stom10

If 25C-NBOMe or NBOMe-2C-C can't be used, I'd support 25C or NBC in all honesty. Anything that at least gives a hint toward the structure and can be readily differentiated from similar substances. Adjectives are shitty 'street names'. Anyone taking this should at least be familiar with what 2Cs are and how this differs, at least in an abstract sense.


----------



## IGNVS

the problem is that anything sold on blotter is going to be sold as *acid*, and anything sold in a pill is going to be sold as *exctacy*. no one is going to get around that no matter what you put in it, as soon as it goes into the hands of someone that dosnt know EXACTLY what it is, thats its name. hell, even people laying synthetic cannabanoids on herbs call it spice because anything that gets you a cannabanoid high that isnt weed has already been popularized as such. 

if people came up with a new form to administer it in that is distinct it would have a chance of adopting a new name, and with that a chance of catching on for what it actually is. but that chance is still very slim, because it hasnt had (and probably wont have) a huge following like lsd in the 60s and mdma in the 80-90s


----------



## Munroe

IGNVS said:


> the problem is that anything sold on blotter is going to be sold as *acid*



For this reason, we should hope that the people distributing this on a large scale would have the sense to put something like "NBOMe-2C-C" on the blotter.

"25C" would easily fit on a blotter and it would avoid it being sold as acid.
Pill form however is a bit more tricky, but surely blotter is much more suitable for something with a dosage so low.


----------



## amanitadine

Had another great experience with this chem a couple nights ago. I was quite surprised, I injected 250mcg into my upper shoulder as I was working at night and couldn't stay awake (I work alone and isolated) and figured by my previous experience of 600mcg I.M. that 250mcg would be a low plus 2. Well needless to say this dose kicked in much harder than anticipated, and I had an absolutely lovely experience. I got some nausea and chills at +5min and thought "uh....oh boy..." and was very up at 20 mins. I bagged off work and watched "How to Draw a Bunny" (a documentary about Ray Johnson) which I hadn't ever seen, and had an amazing and insightful communion with his work and my image of Mr. Johnson himself. Beautiful visuals, a solid empathogenic push (I get this from a good LSD trip too), and lots of valuable insight. It became very possible to look at ones life through a less distorted lens, address problems as well as successes, and the change in perspective is dramatic; this is a true psychedelic The main body of the experience lasted about 5-6 hours, with trailing after effects.

It had been about 2 weeks since my last foray with a N-BenzylOxy 2C (25B, at 400mcg) and I feel any tolerance I would have accumulated was gone. My other experience with I.M. 25C I injected into my gluteus maximus, and I am a skinny dude, but do have a bit more muscle fat on my ass than on my upper shoulder. It is possible the drug is getting caught in the muscle fat, slowing its transit to the brain, and as we all know this will significantly dampen its effects. When I inject ketamine into my shoulder I start to feel it within 1 minute, whereas it takes +5 mins when it goes in  my rump.  I don't know enough about human anatomy to compare and contrast the blood flow and capillary density between these two areas, but the difference was substantial in terms of intensity adjusted for dose. (The two experiences were roughly equipotent in terms of effects). It is also highly possible that the pharmocodynamics of these substances are more complex  and unpredictable for other reasons. More experiences will hopefully answer some of these questions.

I am gonna say that these N-Benzyl PEAs are the most interesting and satisfying substances to come down the pipeline in many years. The mental effects are familiar (aspects of the experience feel very similar to other 5HT2 ligands like LSD or DOI, but the 5HT2A selectivity makes for a substantially different experience) and also unique..... the duration is great, the lessened body load (I was much more aware of my stomach this time, but I had just eaten) is a treat, and there  is a very benevolent tone to the experience.  I really like this substance!

Cheers


----------



## 777xog

I'm curious - Does this one feel in any ways similar to regular 2C-C? Similar to any of the other halogenated 2C's? 2C-E? Or something completely different?

The prospect of having a more economic 2C-C available is nice, though the lack of research is troubling.


----------



## psood0nym

^There's no strong evidence of qualitative correspondence between 2C-X and 25X-NBOMe compounds, either scientific or anecdotal, so far as I'm aware. So you're not going to get simply a more potent version of 2C-C. Most tryptamine and phenethylamine psychedelics whose technical data I've seen indicates lesser receptor selectivity than the NBOMe compounds that have been tested (25B and 25I to my knowledge), though technical info about all of them is pretty limited. There's some discussion of this earlier in the thread. Search the thread for "selectivity" and you'll find the page I'm talking about. 

I can say, though, that 25C is less stimulating and has fewer other amphetamine-like effects than any 2C I've used. Personally, it's like what I used to imagine super "clean" LSD would be like before using LSD enough to find out it's not that clean for me or finding out how pharmacologically messy it is (not to imply that receptor selectivity necessarily has anything to do with phenomological impressions of "cleanliness," or that being "clean" is necessarily superior -- it all depends on what you're after).  I just mean that for me it has few ego dissolving, mind fucking, or bodily effects (good or bad) relative to visual effects and the degree to which it inspires lucid mental scintillation, whereas something like 2C-B has a strong positive body high and gets a little "swimmy" mentally (in that even though it's not tying my mind in knots it does impact my ability to follow a complex conversation).  25C at a high plus two is like being sober in a positive but not overtly chemically motivated psychedelic mood with lots of visuals. That doesn't mean it's not capable of making things more harry at higher doses, mind you.


----------



## atara

25C-NBOMe freebase was just smoked sandwiched between plenty of weed. Approx 250 micrograms were used in the preparation, but significant amounts were lost in the process; I would say I smoked around 100 micrograms total.

Effects were noticeable within *5 minutes!*

Updates forthcoming. Smoke taste is nondescript to negligible.


----------



## amanitadine

^^ Do let us know, as I know you've had experiences with other ROAs and I'm curious what sort of comparisons you will make. In my experience the freebase was substantially weaker in terms of effects than the HCl, even when carefully vaporized. 

I'm thinking tonight is ripe for another trial of I.M. 25B. I've had such varying results in my limited trials that I'm hungry for more data. Plus, these compounds are really fucking fun. It has been 8 days since my last 25C experiment, hoping tolerance won't be too much of an issue. I have yet to try rectal administration, but by all accounts it works just as good if not better than insufflation. 

Cheers


----------



## amanitadine

Last nite I took 375mcg of 25C freebase, made the acetate salt in .5ml saline, and injected it intramuscularly in my upper shoulder. The experience was in line in terms of intensity (adjusted for dose) with my last experience of 250mcg, i.m. in the shoulder as well . I am starting to get consistent and predictable results from taking this compound this way, in this injection location. (it seems to get absorbed quicker than from my glutes, and that makes all the difference with these drugs) .A wonderful full +3, first alerts at 2 mins, 5 mins climbing fast, and by 15 mins everything had pulsing electronic lights and shimmers, and much morphing was going on. Very nice mental space! The NB PEAS  definitely retain certain hallmark 2C characteristics, like the signature body buzz warmth, and I always get a certain almost nausea/stomach "awareness" that only 2C's give me.

I am also going to retract my earlier statements of there being no perceptible difference between 25C and 25B besides potency. I get certain signature effects from 2C-C that are still present with 25C, and the same with 25B/2C--B i have noticed.   I find 2C-C to be a much more interesting psychedelic than 2C-B at high doses, and the same is true for 25C. More expansive thus far. Renews my interest in other para subs now with the NB PEAS.

Cheers


----------



## nuke

atara said:


> New street name for this stuff: _intensity_. Any takers?



I think dickgirl has a better ring to it

Seriously, the nick name is already 25C (although I would prefer it if people used 25Cl, as this indicates chlorine and not carbon)


----------



## reformer

amanitadine said:


> I'm thinking tonight is ripe for another trial of I.M. 25B.
> 
> Cheers





amanitadine said:


> Last nite I took 375mcg of 25C freebase,



Hi amanitadine, sorry for my confusion, but I want to clarify that it was 25C and not 25B that you were reporting on in this most recent post?

Can you also please post your experiences with 25B, if you haven't already? That would be wonderful! I do not see any thread for 25B listed here:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=9414209

Also, can you describe how long the effects last for with the IM ROA?

Thanks!


----------



## amanitadine

Hi, yeah it was "dickgirl" (25Cl, aka 25C)...had a change of mind at the last minute, namely because the 25C is thus far more interesting psychologically.Lots of bells and whistles with both, but 25C _seems_ potentially more dramatic in terms of perception shifting (mental, not visual, although it is extraordinary in this department). The differences are significant enough now though that it seems like trying the obvious  subs is probably worth the time.

I.M. first alerts within minutes'

5 mins - climbing

~20 mins beginning of plateau

~2.5-3.5 hours begin descent

~5 hours dramatic effects largely over

3-5 hours more after effects

I can usually sleep 8-10 hours after dosing

I also haven't pushed it too hard (200 -650mcg). . I am sure this would change the duration. 650mcg was pretty intense for me.

Cheers


----------



## reformer

*Great Followup!*

Thanks for the followup, very intriguing that qualitative differences are being detected between the various 4-sub NBOMe series!  

On one hand, I was almost breathing a sigh of relief that the 4-Sub NBOMe series was uncomplicated by the wonderfully diverse and bizarre responses which manifest in the the 4-Sub 2C-X series. On the other hand, I am excited about years worth of unique research now popping it's head above the foamy surf of the psychonautical sea.

In my (not so humble) opinion, perhaps the truest determinant of when qualitative differences are truly present is when someone elects to research a particular compound instead of another... Thanks for clearing that up, it actually provides some good info.

Thanks also for the time line... What strikes me most is the similarity to the high-dose liquid insufflation ROA. Certainly the IM route takes about ~1/4 to 1/3 less time at each step, but they seem remarkably in lock-step.

I really appreciate the qualitative comments, as I am returning to RCs after a long time away, and am discovering that my response has changed. I find myself in tune with the mental perception shifting much more so than the visual stories that manifest during an experience, so the comparison is quite valuable.


----------



## OrphicTrench

So I've searched throughout the thread and didn't find anything, so here's my question: *has anyone tried putting a drop inside one's eye?* The membranes of the eye are very absorbent. The taste seems nasty so I'm not sure if it will irritate the eye. One thing I'm presumably sure about is that it will be an effective ROA.


----------



## any major dude

yes, in all likelihood it will irritate your eye, as practically all foreign substances will.  Yes it is possible to absorb a drug this way, but by no means does that mean you should do it.   I imagine it would be effective shoved up a urethra as well, but no one's lining up to test out that ROA


----------



## OrphicTrench

^^Alright, thanks for that piece of advice. I don't think I'll be trying it that way after all.


----------



## Solipsis

It's such a small amount of material, how bad can the taste be? In any case I am looking forward to start titrating this using my standardized snortable powder (mannitol carrier).


----------



## any major dude

i've only taken it sublingually once, didn't notice all that much of a taste.  Perhaps a slight chemically something, but nothing that notable.  Did seem to work better insufflated though


----------



## OrphicTrench

I heard it numbs the mouth and it doesn't taste good. Buccal, it doesn't taste much but it still numbs the mouth a bit.


----------



## OrphicTrench

Hey! Wasn't sure if I could make a thread out of this one so I decided to ask here.
What would be a good dose for plugging some 25C? In Shulgin's scale, I would be looking for a top ++ or +++ and it would be administered in the blotter form.


----------



## atara

250 ug is good nasally; rectal dosing should be similar but I don't know how well blotters work rectally.

Frankly I find it disconcerting that this is being sold on blotter; I'd rather not buy any RC on blotter if I can help it, and it certainly looks really bad in court.


----------



## skillet

I'd cut the blotter into tiny pieces, mix it for a few minutes in a mL or so of water and then squirt the whole lot in there to ensure good absorption. Adding a tiny amount of some sort of soap might too (significantly according to some reports.) I'd also recommend trying a lower dose first, I don't know if I'd trust whoever dosed them to have done it accurately.

Congrats on the modship atara


----------



## any major dude

atara said:


> 250 ug is good nasally; rectal dosing should be similar but I don't know how well blotters work rectally.
> 
> Frankly I find it disconcerting that this is being sold on blotter; I'd rather not buy any RC on blotter if I can help it, and it certainly looks really bad in court.



yeah, it is a bit worrisome.  Can't decide if i find that, or the idea of people without proper scales trying to use the pure chemical more disconcerting... 

kind of a which dildo hurts least situation... oh well


----------



## amanitadine

Does anybody know what form the drug is on these blotters? I have seen the freebase being sold along side the blotters, and it didn't specify what form the drug was in. Just curious, because I've seen mentions of lots of inconsistent results with blotters and I wouldn't be surprised if vendors could be selling FB dissolved in EtOH and applied, or something silly. I haven't done any experimenting with sublingual, but I've had very great results with the FB, HCl, and the acetate all applied either I.m., intranasal, or vaporized at doses between 100 - 600 mcg. I would second Atara in that 250mcg intrarectal should be a low plus 3/hi plus 2.


----------



## OrphicTrench

Normally, it is salt. It should be mentioned otherwise. The best way to know is asking your guy. 



atara said:


> I find it disconcerting that this is being sold on blotter



On the streets, yes. But for someone who doesn't want to bother about diluting and accurate measuring, I don't see a big problem. It's just an easy way to keep a single dose separate and solid.

I see where the problems can be, but the price of blotters on those manufacturing it is quite expensive, and I think that anyone getting serious about their research would still stick to the too-good-reliable liquid form.


----------



## Ekstasis-//7

Can someone please offer some advice? This is my first time using liquid methods of storage or measuring.

1)What is the best cheap option for measuring liquid a syringe such as a 1ml or 3ml or a pipette? (such as those plastic 3ml ones)?

2)I should be able to get supermarket distilled water. Would it be okay to leave 5mg of this compound in either 25ml or 12.5ml of distilled water in a glass bottle? Would this chemical preserve the liquid or would it grow microbes? Would I need to add any preserving agent to stop microbe contamination? If so can I use NaCl? Besides being cheap it won't vaporise in my pipe so it will be left behind which is good.

3)If there are issues with preservation/microbe contamination then would I be better off simply evaporating off the whole liquid then just re-add distilled water next time to dose? A borosilicate beaker or flask would make it easy to heat and evaporate. Even air drying 12.5ml or 25ml should be okay in the air for a week. However what I really want is to store in a small glass medicine bottle with a lid I can tighten so each time I re-add the water I can shake to dissolve well. A glass medicine bottle (unless I could find a borosilicate one) I don't know a safe way to heat to evaporate off the water.

4)Would the melting point of this compound be high enough that I can safely boil off the distilled water such as for final administration in a borosilicate pipe with a flame? Basically I don't want the any of the compound to vaporise while I'm boiling off the water and just wanted to check if this is a likely risk or not. I only want the compound to vaporise after I've gotten rid of the water.


----------



## any major dude

not sure about the b.p., but i'm sure its in the literature somewhere.  If you're going to be storing it for a considerable length of time, i'd recommend using a solution of 10-20% either EtOH or isopropanol to prevent any microbial growth.  Also, make sure to either store it in a volumetric container or have the volume written down so you can account for any evaporation.  Doubt it would be necessary to repeatedly evap & re-dilute


----------



## skillet

any major dude said:


> not sure about the b.p., but i'm sure its in the literature somewhere.



I doubt it, especially not for the salt. The melting point should be quite a bit over 100 deg C though, so there's no chance of losing any while evaporating the water.


----------



## Ekstasis-//7

> _Originally posted by any major dude_
> 
> ... i'd recommend using a solution of 10-20% either EtOH or isopropanol to prevent any microbial growth.



Would common vodka be okay for this purpose once I dilute it? Also is distilled water necessary or would de-mineralised water be sufficient?

Would a plastic pipette be more accurate than a syringe?

Thanks for you help


----------



## any major dude

vodka should be fine.  I've usually just used a jug of distilled water from the grocery store, pretty cheap.  I doubt de-mineralised water would be much of a problem, but i'm honestly not 100% sure on that.

as for pipette vs. syringe, pipette's are generally designed for measuring smaller amounts, but depending on the volumes you're using, probably a 6 one way, half a dozen the other type situation.


----------



## skillet

Vodka should be fine, and tap water is probably fine to dilute it. But to be sure you could use distilled or deionised water. There should be no difference between them for this purpose.

I don't know what plastic pipettes you're talking about, but the ones I've seen only give approximate measurements. A syringe should be far more accurate.

Edit: ^ beat me to it! You never seen a 1mL syringe? I doubt the error on a measurement is more than 10% at 0.1mL, and probably far less at higher volumes.


----------



## abrad84

Vodka worked for me, and plain old water. The stuff seems very soluble.


----------



## Ekstasis-//7

Thanks for the info guys.

I just found this guide for how to accurately measure liquids using a syringe: http://www.murphysmachines.com/how_to/how_to_syringe.html

I am thinking of using a 3mL syringe and carefully measuring 2.5mL five times to get the final 12.5mL. I will then use the same 3ml syringe to measure 0.5mL which will be the amount for individual doses. I hope this will keep the factor of liquid measurement error down to a minimum.


----------



## Dondante

Absolutely stunned...working on a short TR. 

500 mcg intranasal. 

Onset: 2-5 minutes. Duration: 6-8 hours. 

Visually, this was one of the most spectacular psychedelic experiences I've had. I fully agree with the assessment that it's nonthreatening for the degree of psychedelia produced, but I will not likely push it much higher than 500 mcg. It felt very clean aside from initial muscle tension and tremors, and a vague change in mucous quality. Mental effects were equally intriguing. None of the weirdness of high dose trypts. I'm wondering what advantages LSD has on this...it's perfect in so many ways.


----------



## reformer

Dondante said:


> Absolutely stunned
> 
> Onset: 2-5 minutes.



Welcome to the fan club brother. It is truly one of the most amazing things to come along in a loooong time.

That onset after liquid insufflation should be noted by everyone! Plan ahead, prepare everything, get the setting ready... there will be ZERO time to accomplish anything as soon as the insufflation is complete.


----------



## Delsyd

Do you encounter anxiety when snorting it due to the rapid onset?


----------



## Dondante

As psood mentioned, any second guessing regarding dose could be anxiety provoking (as could lack of preparedness or improper setting) but in a comfortable environment with 500 mcg, it feels incredibly benign...surprisingly so.


----------



## Delsyd

Your description above, "nonthreatening for the degree of psychedelia produced," is exactly how i would describe a solid dose of 2cd (for me 80-100mg oral).

My favorite psychs are those that can take you far and still allow you to keep your ego in tact.
This seems like it may fit that description. (others are 4 aco dmt, LSD and 2cd IME, though any of those can get a little rough around the edges at times.)


----------



## Dondante

^I've never taken 2C-D above 50 mg, but I have little doubt that you would agree that 25C-NBOMe is cleaner and more impressive. Even the selective 2C-D gets down with all kinds of receptors, including 5-HT2B, 5-HT1D, and adrenergic receptors, not to mention it doesn't have as much selectivity for 5-HT2A over 5-HT2C. Ego dissolution is not out of the question with 25C-NBOMe, but I think it'd be a gentle process. 

Here's the link to my TR: my 25C-NBOMe report. 

:D


----------



## bluffythefluffy

Unless the Chloro is a heck of a lot different that the Methyl, these NBOMes are pretty uninspiring. 

Nichols is on record as saying that the Iodo is not "psychedelic".

Yet the majority's opinion of this compound seems quite positive.


So does 25C-NBOME have (or produce) the magic that characterizes the classics?

Obviously it causes "visuals", but is that enough?


----------



## atara

I would say it compares favorably with LSD and psilocin. That said, it is rather different from either, more along the DOM/mescaline/MDA category of psychedelics.


----------



## any major dude

i'm a bit torn on whether i think ego-dissolution is possible on this substance.  probably need to have a few more experiences before i go on record 

However, it does seem a lot less jarring than most psychedelics, but still intense.  Very interesting indeed


----------



## Nub

When using liquid snorting as a ROA, how much liquid do you use?
Are you fine with measuring with a 1 ml syringe or are smaller volumes needed?
I'm really interested in trying this chemical, but I don't own a submilligram scale, only a milligram scale, and don't have access to μL pipettes. So liquid measuring is a must and the smallest volume I can reliably measure is 0,05 ml

Another option would be rectal administration, since larger volumes can be used this way. But how does rectal compare to nasal administration?


----------



## Dondante

I can't comment on rectal admin, but for intranasal, the less volume, the better. If you pour a full mL down your nose, I'd imagine much of it would go down your throat, but if you were able to measure 0.05-0.1 mL (50-100 uL), which you should be able to do with a 1 mL syringe, I think that would work out just fine.


----------



## bluffythefluffy

atomizers


----------



## FractallyChallengd

I have found that most of the metered dose sinus sprays spray approximatly 0.1ml per spray, I have a solution in sterilised water at 1.5mg per ml and 2 sprays is a full dose, works out really well, you just need to get the top off the spray without damaging it, and this stuff does seem pretty good in solution, just keep it sterile.

Btw I thought the trip from this stuff is really fun, very euphoric and lovely visuals, a great party psychedelic, no real scope for personal insights on this thoufh and I suspect it would be very very difficult to achieve a plus four

I have taken up to a mg or so in stepped dose

About 600ug was my highest peak, very euphoric and chatty at this level, high plus 2 but big boosters are required because of the tolerance issues.

I have also noted a slight downturn in mood on the comedown which lingers for a few hours but nothing too bad, 1mg felt pretty hard on the body though!


----------



## any major dude

yeah, my largest dose thus far was 900µg and it did feel a bit taxing on the body.  Not really unpleasant, just would be wary about going much higher.

Might i inquire how you went about removing the top from a metered sinus spray bottle?  been trying to figure that one out for a cool minute, ha!


----------



## nuke

Dondante said:


> I can't comment on rectal admin, but for intranasal, the less volume, the better. If you pour a full mL down your nose, I'd imagine much of it would go down your throat, but if you were able to measure 0.05-0.1 mL (50-100 uL), which you should be able to do with a 1 mL syringe, I think that would work out just fine.



I hope you got some pictures of you putting a P20 in your nose, it must have looked hilarious X)


----------



## Dondante

^It was a sight to behold. I'm sure my former PI would be proud!


----------



## FractallyChallengd

any major dude said:


> yeah, my largest dose thus far was 900µg and it did feel a bit taxing on the body.  Not really unpleasant, just would be wary about going much higher.
> 
> Might i inquire how you went about removing the top from a metered sinus spray bottle?  been trying to figure that one out for a cool minute, ha!




Yeah, I felt like it gave my body quite a rough ride at that level, hugely fun though.

Regarding the bottle, the top came off relatively easily to be honest, it was a sudafed glass bottle with plastic top, I'm in the UK, bottles may vary elsewhere.

They just pop on and off but you have to get something thin like a pen or the arm of some scissors underneath to bend the top slightly and it should pop off relatively easily with a bit of upward pressure, it bent quite a lot but hasn't done any damage and is back as new again now.
Do make sure you label the bottle though or yout partner, mum dad whatever might just get a shock when they next have a cold!
The metered dose are as near as makes no difference 0.1ml per full spray which is very convenient for dosing
 I don't think you can get the top off if it is the type where the nozzle is attached with metal around the rim, I have tried and always ended up breaking it!


----------



## psood0nym

Regarding liquid nasal administration: I cut the top off of the cap of a 1 mL syringe so that the cut off cap is (obviously) a little longer than the needle (you could just cut the needle tip off, but the problem is sometimes you crush the syringe canal when cutting, and the solution squirts out with difficulty or at a bad angle). I draw up water into the syringe and squirt it out with the cut off cap stuck on to make sure the stream squirts straight out the hole in the opening at the top of the cut off cap instead of hitting the sides of the cap. I put 1 mg of 25C into the bottom of a small vial, and squirt 20 insulin units (100 in 1 mL) onto it. I draw 10 insulin units up into the syringe for ~500 ug 25C in solution, leaving the other 500 ug in the vial for anther time or someone else. I put the cut off cap onto the syringe. I stick the syringe with the cut off cap into my nose until it can't go any higher and it's flush tight with the inside of my nostril. Then I quickly squirt the water up. I don't even have to snort because the pressure of the squirt gets it up there really well, but I breath in gently through my nostrils as I take the syringe out just in case some is trying to flow out. For the most part, though, the stream squirts straight up into the mucosa and 10 insulin units stays there on its own without dripping down my throat at all. Within 5 minutes, maybe less, the fast onset of 25C starts.  

I've only done this once, but it seems like liquid nasal administration may be more potent than IM administration in the thigh. Perhaps it is as amanitadine says and the compound gets caught up in fat deposits in the thigh (I'm pretty fit, dammit, but maybe thighs are just fattier than shoulders, which amanitadine reports are more potent muscles to IM in than thighs in his experience with 25C IM administration).


----------



## FractallyChallengd

Yeah I was using an insulin syringe before and at 1.5mg/ml .1 up each nostril is a full dose and never had any probes with the drip and seem to get full effects.

Insufflation is the way to go with this one I think


----------



## Munroe

Does anyone have any information with regards to transdermal administration of these NBOMes?

There's a thread from two years ago about transdermal admin of 25B-NBOMe but it doesn't seem to come to a conclusion.


----------



## reformer

Delsyd said:


> Do you encounter anxiety when snorting it due to the rapid onset?



Well, in my case, I did encounter it one time, as I was walking up dosing at the time, and for some god-awful, and still unknown reason on this particular occasion I bumped ~1.4 mg by liquid insufflation. Within 5 minutes I was at full +++ and had to retreat to the sanctity of the bathroom with dimmed light and running bath water.

Since then, knowing how stupid a dose that was, and knowing the rapid comeup, the anxiety isn't there.



Dondante said:


> As psood mentioned, any second guessing regarding dose could be anxiety provoking (as could lack of preparedness or improper setting) but in a comfortable environment with 500 mcg, it feels incredibly benign...surprisingly so.



I completely agree, once your aware of the rapidity of onset, and prepared with a proper dose, it's very friendly.

I guess what I am saying is that the 25C itself doesn't seem to induce the anxiety, it's a psychonaut's reaction to it that might... as opposed to some chemicals that just plain make the majority of users anxious.



bluffythefluffy said:


> Unless the Chloro is a heck of a lot different that the Methyl, these NBOMes are pretty uninspiring.



Can you clarify? Has 25D shown itself to be uninteresting? In my opinion 25C hasn't shown that... It's wonderful.


----------



## Ekstasis-//7

I can't say I've had the privilege of trying either 25C or 25D and yeah I know they are different compounds to their 2C counterpart but hey I may as well mention it... what if there is some similarity in the same way that a good decent dose of 2C-C seems vastly superior than 2C-D? ...way more visuals, much less anxiety, more psychedelic yet usually very easy on the mind and in somewhat sedating. Hmmm reading the reports and the similar rapid dose tollerace I'm really quite interested to see if this has any of the similar effects and feel of 2C-C...


----------



## FractallyChallengd

In my experience, the only real thing this one shares with 2c-c is the friendly forgiving headspace, its never too taxing on the mind.

I found the visuals on 2c-c to be very intense when (painfully) insufflated at 20mg, very similar to a good dose of shrooms, lots of spirals and faces morphing whereas I found 25C to have much gentler visual aspect, quite floaty , but a much stronger stimulation than 2c-c, verging on overstimulation at higher doses. 25C is quite intense in this aspect, but not intense visually, at least for me. 
ymmv


----------



## bluffythefluffy

There just doesn't seem to be much (any?) mention of the "magic" associated with prototypical psychedelics such as LSD, psilocin or mescaline.

Insights into the nature of reality experienced first-hand, true reverence, beings or presence - really powerful stuff. 

Even simple "fantasy" doesn't seem to be mentioned in recounted experience with the NBOMes.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


This doesn't mean they are not interesting.


----------



## Aleph

FractallyChallengd said:


> ...but a much stronger stimulation than 2c-c, verging on overstimulation at higher doses. 25C is quite intense in this aspect, but not intense visually...


I agree according to my experiences.


----------



## FractallyChallengd

bluffythefluffy said:


> There just doesn't seem to be much (any?) mention of the "magic" associated with prototypical psychedelics such as LSD, psilocin or mescaline.
> 
> Insights into the nature of reality experienced first-hand, true reverence, beings or presence - really powerful stuff.
> 
> Even simple "fantasy" doesn't seem to be mentioned in recounted experience with the NBOMes.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> 
> This doesn't mean they are not interesting.




I think youre probably right, it's immense fun but verymuch lacking in insight. 

Different people want different things though. I would consider this a real party psychedelic, I have yet to do it with anyone who didn't enjoy it. There is a noticeable increase in music appreciation an combined with the stimulation it would make it a great club drug in my opinion and it has a very friendly headspace, it's just the dosing problem. I can see many a dosing problem occurring!


----------



## pepsimax

Hi!

First time poster but been lurking around here for quite a bit of time 

I was wondering if it could be possible for anyone to take a picture of 1 mg 25c-nbome just so we all can see how little this is?

¤note¤ This photo should not be used for measuring out doses

Thanks


----------



## nuke

It's up to the line of a P20 pipette tip if you're using a 100ug/uL solution...  I don't recommend dosing it any other way.  1mg can be 2mm in diameter or 1/2mm in diameter depending on the way in which the powder was milled.


----------



## kingme

FractallyChallengd said:


> I think youre probably right, it's immense fun but verymuch lacking in insight.
> 
> Different people want different things though. I would consider this a real party psychedelic, I have yet to do it with anyone who didn't enjoy it. There is a noticeable increase in music appreciation an combined with the stimulation it would make it a great club drug in my opinion and it has a very friendly headspace, it's just the dosing problem. I can see many a dosing problem occurring!



a club drug you say... kinda dependant on what one would consider a club drug no?

how is motor coordination on it? what about social skills/ speech?


----------



## OrphicTrench

nuke said:


> It's up to the line of a P20 pipette tip if you're using a 100ug/uL solution...



So what's the ratio you recommend for the solution and what amount do you recommend to use with a P20 pipette (from 2 to 20ug)?


----------



## FractallyChallengd

kingme said:


> a club drug you say... kinda dependant on what one would consider a club drug no?
> 
> how is motor coordination on it? what about social skills/ speech?



I found no problems with any coordination, noticeably increased music appreciation and a strong stimulation, made me want to talk, more outgoing, less introverted than most psychedelics, making it more superficial, less likely to offer a plus four IMO but it depends what your after.

 I used to love eating a strip of lucy and a few pills before clubbing, pretty much fucked my coordination! most kids in the uk at the moment are off their faces on GHB and K in the clubs, not the most co-ordinated or outgoing drugs but ymmv, I reckon this would be great in a club but it is far too hard to dose responsibly to get that far, probably a good thing!


----------



## nuke

OrphicTrench said:


> So what's the ratio you recommend for the solution and what amount do you recommend to use with a P20 pipette (from 2 to 20ug)?



Follow Dondante...  Use a 10% EtOH solution and a 1.5mL tube, fill it with 15mg of material and 150uL with a P100 (you should be able to figure out the math for different quantities).  Heat gently, vertex, centrifuge down.  Freeze the tube for storage; should last quite a long time.  You should be able to reliably dose from 250ug-1000ug with this method, the amounts being 2.5uL to 10uL.

I guess you just pipette into the nostril to dose it.  Alternatively you could pipette 10uL into a gelcap and then insert it into your rectum which which probably easier and less likely to lead to any variability.  Gelcaps dissolve there in about 5-15 minutes, similar to the stomach.


----------



## Dondante

^I made a slightly more dilute solution (50 μg/μL) and used bacteriostatic water. Even at that concentration, it precipitated out pretty quickly when cooling to room temp. 

Another way to do it without the P20 would be to make a 10 μg/μL solution and use a 1 cc syringe for intranasal dosing...0.05 mL = 500 μg.


----------



## psood0nym

nuke said:


> It's up to the line of a P20 pipette tip if you're using a 100ug/uL solution...  I don't recommend dosing it any other way.  1mg can be 2mm in diameter or 1/2mm in diameter depending on the way in which the powder was milled.


This bears repeating. I've seen two different batches of 25C-NBOMe HCl, and the first was much fluffier than the second, taking up roughly double the space in the vile i.e., same compound, same salt, double the volume. No matter how many times they've done it before, not even being the same compound in the same form allows a person to judge the weight of any substance active in the mg range with any degree of accuracy by sight alone between different batches, least of all chems active in the ug range (and you can't trust the vendors to give you the weight that you ordered, either, nor that the batches didn't change between orders, thereby changing how much volume a certain weight takes up). Anyone who insists they can eyeball any RC based on its name and visual properties alone is a danger to themselves and others. 

I think most of us using the pure compound are using a single mg scale combined with multiple reweighings biased on the side of safety along with staggered liquid dosing, and I've no doubt there's still substantial variance (variance we end up feeling) between the doses we think we're taking. 

People out there: please don't toy with this one (especially) without at least a single mg scale, you'll end up burning yourself and your friends along with you. Despite being incriminating, the blotters are really the best way to reduce your risk if you refuse to get a single mg scale.


----------



## OrphicTrench

Thanks for the answers!
I think I'll be diluting 5mg in 0,30mL to get 333ug by every 20uL nasal. :D
I may be trying a more diluted solution too with 5mg in 0,50mL for 200ug every 20uL.
Either way, it will be awesome.


----------



## Munroe

Forgive my ignorance, but where might I be able to get a pipette capable of that type of dosing?
I've done a quick google for the ones you've mentioned and they're upwards or £100. 
I take it you don't have these specifically for the administration of RCs?


----------



## nuke

Munroe said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but where might I be able to get a pipette capable of that type of dosing?
> I've done a quick google for the ones you've mentioned and they're upwards or £100.
> I take it you don't have these specifically for the administration of RCs?



They're expensive, yes, you can find them for less on eBay but they're often uncalibrated.  You use them pretty extensively for biochemistry/molecular biology/analytic lab work.

If you don't want to shell out for one, you can solvate them in larger volumes (like 200mcg/mL) and enjoy them rectally.  If you buy them, don't forget to buy tips too.


----------



## psood0nym

For liquid insufflation I think it's easiest for most non-chemistry set buying people  to just to buy an insulin syringe at a local pharmacy and cut the needle off at its base with a wire cuter (cut through the plastic at the point where the needle meats the barrel). 10 insulin units  containing 0.5 mg of 25C-NBOMe in solution will squirt up your nose without dripping down just fine.


----------



## Rorthron

I sincerely cannot make sense why expensive pipettes and strange dilutions are necessary. I've used an off the shelf eyedropper with a dilution of 1 mg/ml. After repeated testing i know precisely how many drops are in one ml (16 in my case) Thus I just dose accordingly. 2 drops in each nostril will not drip to the throat. If I want more than 4 drops, I apply 2+2, I wait 10 seconds for the solution to be absorbed, and I repeat the dose. This has been tested several times, and not only by me, and it works extremely well!

There: effective easy, cheap and safe. What else does one need?


----------



## fluffybudzz

Could anyone compare this two another psychadelic?

is it like 2c's (if so which ones) or shrooms or acid or mda?

thanks in advance!


----------



## any major dude

the consensus does seem to be that they are very different from their parent 2c compounds.  As for comparisons between the bomamines & "classic" psychedelics, you're comparing apples & kumquats


----------



## nuke

Rorthron said:


> I sincerely cannot make sense why expensive pipettes and strange dilutions are necessary. I've used an off the shelf eyedropper with a dilution of 1 mg/ml. After repeated testing i know precisely how many drops are in one ml (16 in my case) Thus I just dose accordingly. 2 drops in each nostril will not drip to the throat. If I want more than 4 drops, I apply 2+2, I wait 10 seconds for the solution to be absorbed, and I repeat the dose. This has been tested several times, and not only by me, and it works extremely well!
> 
> There: effective easy, cheap and safe. What else does one need?



Probably not very accurate, though...  Drop sizes vary pretty widely depending on flow rates.  And it's easy to make a mistake with a pasteur pipette and add too many drops.  You can easily get a 1mL syringe for insulin injections and measure much more accurately with that.


----------



## Dondante

Rorthron said:


> I sincerely cannot make sense why expensive pipettes and strange dilutions are necessary.



They're not. A good pipette would deliver more accurate doses, but your method sounds fine too. As Nuke pointed out, a 1 cc syringe would be more accurate and cheap.  



fluffybudzz said:


> Could anyone compare this two another psychadelic?



...apples & kumquats... 

In my opinion, 2C-C-NBOMe most resembles LSD, though it has some distinct differences that are difficult to pin down after a single trial. For one, I thought that visually, the compound was more spectacular. I wonder if the biggest similarity is that they both feel so light on the body...

I found it to be less similar to the 2C-x compounds that I've tried than expected...less body load for sure. The 2C-x class is such a varied group that it's difficult to make general comparisons. Specifically, I can say that it lacks the synestheisia of 2C-T-7 and the electricity of 2C-E. On the other hand, it provides valuable mental effects that I think can be lacking in compounds like 2C-B and 2C-C. 

The tryptamines are even more dissimilar, though a few do tend to feel rather light on the body as well. 2C-C-NBOMe is fascinating material, but perhaps not capable of catalyzing the transcendent experiences of oneness that psilocin and the simple tryptamines are capable of. In general, it's great stuff...low anxiety and without dark corners.


----------



## fluffybudzz

thanks dondante. this sounds like my kind of thing. 2c-x bodyload really is an issue for me. I have a source ofr 350mcg blotters, however some people argue that this is too small a dosage and the 500mcg is the right dosage. could anyone confirm a decent dose or a sweet spot that they have found with the 25c-nbome?

thanks


----------



## atara

350 mcg is good for a first time. This one's gentle enough to have quite a wide dosage range; people have reported good effects from 250 all the way up to 900.


----------



## skillet

And you can always take more or less than 1 blotter. 1.5 * 325 ug is almost 500 ug.


----------



## reformer

nuke said:


> if you're using a 100ug/uL solution...



Woah. That is 100 mg/ml, and ther is no way it's soluble at room temperature at that concentration....

...Which *can be* dangerous, as the solution will NOT be homogenous if the researcher is not uber careful to ensure complete dissolution each and every time.

Better yet to simply use a more dilute solution, one that can sustain solubility even at room temperature.

I found this advice elsewhere and it has stood me in good stead:

(ignore the annoying "plantstril" lingo)



> the NBOMe*HCl are soluble to at least 6-7 mg/ml in water. This would enable a sufficiently small volume to be insufflated, such that it didn't drip. At time of fertilization, the insufflated volume should be kept below ~0.1 ml, and ideally like 0.05 ml (per plantstril). So, at 6 mg/ml 0.05 ml will deliver 300 ug and 0.1 ml provides 600 ug. This can be repeated in the other plantstril without succumbing to drippy-syndrome.




Frankly, up to ~0.25 ml can be utilized in total with no drip.

I see no need for super small volumes, actually I consider them counterproductive!!

10 ul volumes lead to more room for error, more dose that is lost to walls of tips or syringe and less volume to cover the surface area of the absorptive nasal passages.



psood0nym said:


> For liquid insufflation I think it's easiest for most non-chemistry set buying people  to just to buy an insulin syringe at a local pharmacy and cut the needle off at its base with a wire cuter.



That is GREAT advice. Very low stress and user friendly.



FractallyChallengd said:


> it a great club drug in my opinion



Shhhhhh. ;-) LoL. Keep it on the DL.

I am not much of a clubber, actually not one at all, but 25C is the only entheogen I have encountered that hasn't seemed to be necessarily introspective and mind fucky. Actually I didn't think such a thing was possible... But it is. I'd almost hesitate to call it a entheogen, more like a enFUNogen.


----------



## Rorthron

nuke said:


> Probably not very accurate, though...  Drop sizes vary pretty widely depending on flow rates.  And it's easy to make a mistake with a pasteur pipette and add too many drops.



Actually no big mistakes are made, for one can see the size of the water column in the eye dropper. The column full is about 1ml, So it's not even necessary to count the drops: half tube= 0.5 ml (and 500 ugs in my dilution). I use the drops counting mainly to avoid dripping. Granted, it could be more precise, but at dosages tested (300-400 ugs) I doubt that a +-5% will make a huge difference.


----------



## ayavisions

This is my first post here but been following this and many other theads here for a while.. 

If one were to have 10mg of 25C freebase am I right to assume that there is no way I could get this to simply dissolve in dH20?
I was wondering if it could be dissolved into a 10ml solution of 10% acetic acid and dissolve to make a solution suitable for liquid insufflation of the 25C acetate..
Would this work alright or does anyone have any better suggestions?


----------



## skillet

ayavisions said:


> If one were to have 10mg of 25C freebase am I right to assume that there is no way I could get this to simply dissolve in dH20?



No, there's no way.



> I was wondering if it could be dissolved into a 10ml solution of 10% acetic acid and dissolve to make a solution suitable for liquid insufflation of the 25C acetate..
> Would this work alright or does anyone have any better suggestions?



Well yeah, probably, but I can't imagine it's nice to snort 0.5mL of double strength vinegar! You should be able to get away with far less acetic acid than that:

10mg / 335.8 g/mol = 0.03 mmol 25C

0.03 mmol * 60 = ~1.8mg AcOH = ~20 uL of 10% AcOH (assuming the density of 10% AcOH is close to 1, and giving a slight excess)

So you'd only need around 20 uL of 10% acetic acid solution (0.02mL) for every 10mg 25C. You can make the rest up with water.

Oh, and welcome to BL


----------



## Big)Sky

Seems the only reasonable way to handle this stuff would be put it straight into liquid form?


----------



## amanitadine

I had another fantastic experience with this compound recently that both highlighted it's novel charms as well as it's intrinsic variability in response. Was left virtually speechless but not quite....

511mcg of the HCl was dissolved in .4ml of H2O and administered by intramuscular injection into my deltoid. After about a minute all the pores of my face simultaneously squeezed out a drop of sweat,  resulting in the feeling of a sheet of perspiration being lifted off of me.....my thoughts started racing and my innervoice immediately referenced the phrase in PIHKAL (I think it is maybe in the 2C-E section...) where Sasha writes "Each person has his own brand of toxic psychosis...." This seemed particularly apt, as I hadn't experienced this sort of start/intensity before and I have had a stressful last few weeks and it was evident immediately that this trip was gonna be a ride and I was going to be shedding some baggage....

At 5 minutes the visuals were already kicking in to a degree surpassing any other of my 25C experiences. At ten minutes they were almost on par with DMT, but with the twist that seems unique to these compounds. I literally was hanging on to the edge of my seat,  and was panicky for a minute about my certainty of the dosage. As psoodnym mentioned any questions about dosage will be a source of stress as the drug takes hold (when taken by a ROA with a rapid onset). I am very meticulous, have an extremely accurate and expensive analytical scale, and triple check everything but I still thought I had fucked up for a moment. . 

The visual element was most stunning....My world became a snowglobe of "air castles" and I had the usual rippling, twisting, and morphing but a few elements were entirely new and signature to me....Several times the point from which I was observing all of this shifted and fragmented as well, resulting in a visual field more cubist than out-of body. It felt distinctly Michio Kaku-esque, as if the  usual 3 dimensional field was just allowing for an x-y-z reference into the space-time dimension, allowing for entry into the dimensions hard enough for the human mind to understand that I'm not even gonna try to tack them to my limited powers of description...this is visual phenomenon mind you, not just cognitive....

As I will still climbing at around ten minutes I kept referencing a discussion I had just had with a fellow BLer where he mentioned his first experience with DOM being at a public swimming pool, and how twisted this was. It gave me knots trying to imagine this, and as I was barely clinging on and climbing I kept turning this over in my head until it became mantra-like..."well you _could_ be on DOM at a public swimming pool in NYC...you have _no_ idea what duress and pain is, you are gonna be fine...:D" 

At around 15 minutes I was settled into the experience enough to relax and marvel, and marvel I did. This could indeed be a valuable tool for studying human perception.....although my visual field was virtually unrecognizable at times my identity and faculties remained largely intact....to hallucinate like this on any other 5HT2ergic one would be so awash in noise as to be drowning. I had some amazing aural hallucinations as well, with beautiful flanging and echoing. The sounds of ones refrigerator in a quiet apartment while tripping are often as inexplicable as the processes of which they speak, but this was something else entirely! There was a constant din, a buzzing of mosquitoes I recognized as the sound of the human race flitting about over the shit pile, and I was able to pull out individual hums and isolate them into synaesthetic air castles, almost like visual/aural glossolalia. At one point I walked over to the open sliding glass door and looked out onto the street as it shimmered with pulsing electricity and LED vortices. It was misting slightly and the fine rain drops caught my fascination for a  minute. As i turned around and looked back into my living room these rain drops followed and I stood slack jawed, watching it rain inside my house. This was as real as day, which puzzled me to no end. I still had the classic psychedelic/mathematical hallucinations going on, but this rain was just cut and pasted, superimposed, in an entirely believable style. WoW.

By 45 minutes the experience subsided enough to be where I was expecting to be at initially. This entire experience was much shorter than normal, and much more intense. Besides being stunning eye candy it also was very therapeutic and insightful, and actually productive. By 3 hours I had only residual effects left, and was hungry and satisfied, having addressed  many areas of psychological concern and my actions as of late. This compound really highlighted my internal moral compass, and allowed for a refreshingly critique free session of self analysis. 

I am not sure if the brevity and out of the gate intensity were due to my set and setting, or if maybe the drug was just absorbed faster than normal, or if this is just another as of yet unexplained variation in the drugs effects. The chronology of this experience was more in line with my experiences in smoking it, or as I would imagine i.v. administration would be like. I still experienced some stomach "awareness"(rather than discomfort) on the come-up and I could see vomiting were I to up the dose too much more but as a whole there were far less physical side effects than with other PEAs and trypts. Were this my first experience with the drugs of this class I could have been easily overwhelmed and had an uncomfortable or even unpleasant experience. I can't urge enough to really exercise caution with these substances and take it slow. They seem very forgiving but I can see it turning sour with an overdose quite easily.

Very exciting stuff.

Cheers


----------



## Dondante

^Thanks. Great report!

There seems to be an incredible degree of consistency emerging among the first few experiences recounted on BL. 



> Besides being stunning eye candy it also was very therapeutic and insightful, and actually productive. By 3 hours I had only residual effects left, and was hungry and satisfied, having addressed many areas of psychological concern and my actions as of late. This compound really highlighted my internal moral compass, and allowed for a refreshingly critique free session of self analysis.



This is exactly what I would expect from this compound, particularly from a solo experience. Visually spectacular, but also potentially very insightful. Bright, blithe, lucid material.


----------



## rizla1

hi all , can some 1 clear this up for me .... if i dissolve say 20mg freebase in liquid at 100ug a drop in my nasal dropper.. will the freebase be active nasally? 
also what solution should i use , saline soultion , 37.5% vodca or other ? 
 would they do for long term storage  say over 6 months?


----------



## abrad84

The freebase will not be soluble or active nasally.


----------



## rizla1

ok , so could you sugest a solution that would turn it into the salt.. i have read trough the tread but still need some help with this. i have vodca here, can get some distilled water, but for acid i do not no.  lemon juice / vinegar.. would they work? 

also the freebase does seem to be active sublingal and on blotters, so would freebase in a liquid solution not work.?


----------



## rizla1

can anyone help me?


----------



## skillet

If the freebase is active sublingually, I see no real reason why it wouldn't be active intranasally too. But if it turns out it isn't you could always add a drop of (distilled) vinegar to your solution to form the acetate salt without altering the concentration too much.

I think a drop of vinegar should be enough for about 5mg of 25C freebase, if your solution contains more, add proportianally more vinegar.

The freebase will not be soluble in water though, maybe in vodka, but that's probably not nice to insufflate! So you're probably better off making the salt anyway. For long term storage I think the solution should contain about 20% alcohol too, to prevent bacterial growth.


----------



## rizla1

ok great thanks for that... yeah im not to sure wat to do yet. 
so i could use say this vodca 37.5%, vinigar or lemon juice concentrate, and maybe some distilled water  to leave it sitting around 20% alchohol. 

i have 20mg freebase, my dropper on average is about 31.25 ul / 32 drops per ml
                     i want 4 drops per dose at 400ug which leaves me 6.25ml of solution.
                               5 drops  = 7.8 ml 
so even if i do not have exactly 20mg it will still be safe starting out at 1 drop (100ug) and moving up from there.:D


----------



## skillet

Yeah that works, I'd do two things first though. Make a solution without the 25C, just 50% vodka/water and a few drops of vinegar* and 1) check that you still get 32 drops/mL as the viscosity and drop size will probably change, 2) check that you can actually snort the stuff  though I guess 20% alcohol won't sting too much.

*I don't know what lemon juice concentrate is, but if it is actually concentrated lemon juice I'd definitely go with distilled vinegar because it will be cleaner.


----------



## rizla1

ok thanks . yeah with water it averaged 40 drops per ml  so it mite go up to about 36 drops.  would ordinary tap water do alrite?  yeah hopfully it doesnt sting tobad. lol  vodca undiluted stung a fair bit for 30 ul ... lol aslo is distill vinigar the clear vinegar you normally get?


----------



## skillet

Yeah I guess you'd get more drops/mL with the alcohol because you'd reduce the viscosity. Tap water on it's own I think would be fine, but mixing it with alcohol might precipitate some of the dissolved salts. I guess it depends on how hard your water is. And yeah, I'm pretty sure clear vinegar is distilled.


----------



## any major dude

"drops" really aren't a standardized way to dose things... you could quite easily give yourself a larger dose than expected.  You can get an oral syringe or an insulin syringe quite easily & cheaply, and either of those would be much more accurate


----------



## rizla1

rizla1;9555559
i have 20mg freebase said:


> yes i am quite aware of that. it is averaging 32-34 drops with vodca, and around 40 drops with only tap water. so when i get my solution correct i will measure 4-5 times, get the average , and measure the risk of what im doing.
> margin of error will be to small. :D


----------



## CaptainAmerica

What is a good reason to ask for an oral syringe at a pharmacy?

I sometimes get odd looks...


----------



## amanitadine

They are often not behind the counter....sold for oral administration of meds to babies and such. Or for measuring any liquid medication. But if they are behind,  well, fuck em. The odd looks are probably in your head (unless yr a 6'6" stinking hippy with a dreadlock mullet and a tattooed face...but then you've got bigger issues than weird looks...) and your nervousness is probably projecting and making things worse. They are a pharmacy...they sell drugs, syringes, etc etc. Giving a reason right off the bat might just make you look even sketchier. But if needed, you are buying a syringe to administer your home brewed retrovirals to your baby what has the aids. Or something. (and then you ask em if they sell "oxycottin")

Cheers


----------



## psood0nym

^Heh heh.

Oral syringes seem like they'd be too big if you're using them for liquid insufflation, and even if they are small they could be problematic (the drop method would be awkward as hell for liquid insufflation, too).

Here, look at this 1 mL oral syringe for feeding baby chicks (I'm not even sure one this small could be bought at a pharmacy):






Instead of a needle, it has a fairly wide nozzle. Imagine trying to squirt 1/10th of 1 mL (a small enough amount that it won't go down your throat) with your 25C solution in it out of that thing and into your nose. I'd be worried a lot of it would remain held up in the nozzle (I've seen this happen with needless syringes). I guess just make sure you draw in air above the solution so that you squeeze the air out after the solution, thereby clearing the nozzle of fluid. The problem with this is that the syringe will have to be upright during administration so that the air bubble rises above the solution. Your head will have to be tilted back while you squirt it out. This might result in some going down your throat. If you're careful you might pull it off fine, though.

I still say insulin syringe with the needle cut off with a wire cutter is the best cheap/accessible method. Though I must admit I'm biased, as I'm amused by the idea of needle virgin Bluelighters walking into a pharmacy and requesting needles.  I've done it before without issue, but two of my friends say they are "psychologically incapable" of asking for them and lying about why they need them (apparently it's unusual that some people need insulin). I guess there's always buying a box of 100 on the internet for all you needle buying phobics who are afraid of your own assholes (that is plugging -- which is reportedly effective, presumably far superior to sublingual and equipotent to liquid insufflation, and avoids all these issues).


----------



## Pralus

Does anyone know of the legality of this compound UK and elsewhere?


----------



## rizla1

it is seemingly legal worldwide atm , same goes for all these nbomes . 
i am not sure though im no chemist. lol

i am in uk though and had no problems .... 4-5 days from europe .:D


----------



## DOIBOBBOTS

I have no problems getting it in the uk. i bought tabs tried sublingual and got threshold effects i have also tried nasally and rectally and still got mild effects even up to 1050 mcg rectally that was 3 so called 350mcg tabs. i might have bunk what do you think?


----------



## skillet

How do you take tabs nasally? And how do you do it rectally, just stick them up there? I'd mash them up in a mL or so of water (maybe with a drop of vinegar to make sure the drug dissolves) and squirt the whole lot up there. If that's not what you did before, I'd just try this with one at first in case it's just that it wasn't being absorbed.

Sublingual should work though, but might be a bit finnicky.


----------



## rizla1

wel i think them blotters need to be held in the mouth for 15-20mins for decent effects ...
 last nite i got to test my liquid solution ... and it was amazing.:D
 2 drops / around 200ug nasally   after 30-40mg methoxetamine both ended up kicking in around 40 mins ... and went beautiful together .
25c first alerts within 10-mins and was very lsd like.. 
lots of trasers  and patterns.
 then at about 1h 20 mark with both peaking as soon as i stept outside my room door , i could fell the floor tilt up was a strange sensation trying to get across my landing to the toilet was quite difficult..8( 
main effects lasted around 4-5 hours some nice oev's lots of colour and music appreciation and  around another 4 hours of cev's , lots of fractual patterns . 

i got to sleep at 8.5 hours and only got 3 hours sleep, but i feel not to bad , no real hangover just a bit off . over all a very nice compound  and i cannot wait to try at higher doses 400-500ug.


----------



## DOIBOBBOTS

I soak the tabs in a minimal amount of water about 1/10th of a ml. squirt up nose bum or mouth and repeat with more water. 
Seriously 3 tabs at 350mcg should have fucked me up the arse according to all other trip reports. 
I got no OEV some CEV nothing special but felt very stimulated lasted about 8hr. Nothing like LSD
And it is hcl not freebase.


----------



## DOIBOBBOTS

Sublingual is definetly not the way to do this. I also vaped half a tab waste of time. i have about 6 tabs left any ideas?


----------



## rizla1

i wil try sublingual soon with my liquid solution .
fyi i think liquid insullfation with fb/ hlc is the way to go . this was extremly like lsd at 200ug!! the dose of mxe surly helpd but still that was some lsd tripping off my face stuff. lol very nice  still get that kind of emptyness the next day though. but as expected.  try holding the blotters say 2.5 blots in your gums for 20 mins ? mite help :D
very nice evening for it to 25c here .... work at 8am though


----------



## Paradisum

*Considering purchasing this*

Hello there guys!


So i am very interested in this chemical. There is just one thing bothering me:




THE POTENCY



I have a milligram scale but its not the best, It is a Gemini-20 i bought off of ebay for $40.



SO my question for you guys is how would I go about this chemical? I want to snort it as I have read that is the best ROA. 

How can i weigh this substance to find a good dose?


----------



## reformer

*Suggestion- Read the thread*

^ Start by actually reading the thread. At least 1/3-1/2 half of the posts relate to proper dosing and liquid insufflation.

Please do your homework rather than make this thread even more redundant.


----------



## ayavisions

skillet said:


> Well yeah, probably, but I can't imagine it's nice to snort 0.5mL of double strength vinegar! You should be able to get away with far less acetic acid than that:
> 
> 10mg / 335.8 g/mol = 0.03 mmol 25C
> 
> 0.03 mmol * 60 = ~1.8mg AcOH = ~20 uL of 10% AcOH (assuming the density of 10% AcOH is close to 1, and giving a slight excess)
> 
> So you'd only need around 20 uL of 10% acetic acid solution (0.02mL) for every 10mg 25C. You can make the rest up with water.
> 
> Oh, and welcome to BL



Ok so I now have 0.1ml of 10% acetic acid + 6.6ml distilled water.. with 10mg 25C.  So  149.2ug/100uL..
Unless I have misunderstood the above this should leave plenty of excess acetic acid in the solution right? so why does my freebase not dissolve and become 25C acetate... ?

EDIT: managed to dissolve 95% of the solids when repeatedly shaken and heated on a heat mat, but when cooled it precipitated out somewhat.  any advice?


----------



## skillet

Yeah that should be at least a 5x excess of acid, but I don't know how soluble the acetate salt is...
Adding some ethanol would likely increase the solubility, but would dilute your solution unless you evaporate some first... But again, I doubt it's nice to snort ethanol solutions, even fairly dilute.
You can't get hydrochloric acid? The HCl salts are pretty soluble. Or you could dilute it more and plug it.


----------



## reformer

*Bump up the AA?*



ayavisions said:


> Ok so I now have 0.1ml of 10% acetic acid + 6.6ml distilled water.. with 10mg 25C.  So  149.2ug/100uL..
> Unless I have misunderstood the above this should leave plenty of excess acetic acid in the solution right? so why does my freebase not dissolve and become 25C acetate... ?
> 
> 
> 
> any advice?



AA = acetic acid

(0.1ml 10% AA)*(0.1 ml AA/1 ml 10% AA)*(1.049 g AA/ml AA)*(1 mol AA/60.05 g AA)/(0.0066 L) = final AA in mol/L (M) = 26.5 mM AA

(0.01 g 25C-HCl)*(1 mol 25C/335 g 25C)/(0.0066 L) = final 25C in mol/L (M) = 4.5 mM

Skillets right, there is an excess of protons to solubilize the 25C.

I think the problem is different... It's in your order of addition. Usually insoluble bases need to be solved in acid, then diluted to final concentration.

Unfortunately this advice comes too late, but ideally you would dissolve the 25C in the acid (0.1 ml) then dilute further into water. I've commonly encountered situations where dissolving a bulky organic base into a water solution that we KNOW has plenty of available protons is next to impossible unless it's previously solved in acid.

Having said that, once it's in solution (via heating, shaking as you mentioned), it should stay in solution. Since it didn't, you might want to consider adding a bit more acid, a tiny bit at a time, redissolving and then cooling to room temp to see if it stays in solution. Then repeating until you get to a level of acetic acid you don't want to exceed further.

So, right now, your at:

(0.1 ml)*(10 percent)/(0.0066 ml) = final % acetic acid in your 6.6 ml = 0.15% acetic acid

You can probably go much higher than your current 0.15% concentration of acetic acid and still have a solution worthy of insufflation.

**

Also- another thought. You kinda used the "wrong" acid. In the future maybe hunt down dilute HCl.

Acetic acid is not a "strong" acid. HCl is a "strong" acid. Thus in water, ALL of the HCl will become available protons.

In contrast, acetic acid has a pKa of ~4.5, and is ALMOST completely dissociated in distilled water, but not entirely. Distilled water is often around pH 5.5.

Additionally, acetic acid is volatile. So you are adding less AA than you think you are- some of it is flying away with the protons you desire. You might need to add more to compensate for this.


----------



## ayavisions

Well the acetate salt has very low solubility at room temperature compared to the HCL apparently.  Also even at this dilution acetic acid is not particularly something you want in your nose, even less your throat as I discovered.  
However I dosed 200ug nearly four hours ago and spent the peak washing up, and washing up has NEVER felt so good.  will write up a report later.


----------



## reformer

ayavisions said:


> Well the acetate salt has very low solubility at room temperature compared to the HCL apparently.



Didn't know that, interesting.

Admittedly I haven't tried the 0.15% AA solution myself, so definitely you'd know best here.

Best of luck- please let us know how it went!


----------



## Paradisum

reformer said:


> ^ Start by actually reading the thread. At least 1/3-1/2 half of the posts relate to proper dosing and liquid insufflation.
> 
> Please do your homework rather than make this thread even more redundant.



I did read the thread sir, I am asking for a dumbed down way to do it since this chem talk doesn't make much sense to me. I guess I could just put 11mg in a solution? I am just worried about degradation only because I'm not sure I want to be snorting ethenol up my nostrils. Id weight 1mg but my scale isn't very reliable in that range.


----------



## Solipsis

reformer said:


> Additionally, acetic acid is volatile. So you are adding less AA than you think you are- some of it is flying away with the protons you desire. You might need to add more to compensate for this.



AA is not significantly volatile I think, like say ether. It won't fly away unless you move at the speed of a snail. Also, HCl is volatile as well.

A solution to the problem of not having it dissolve can indeed be adding an excess of acid, then after it is dissolved you can quench the acid with a weak base - preferably bicarb since CO2 formation is a nice indicator, otherwise pH paper. Then it should be fine to ingest, if the volume is too large concentrate it.

I'm trying to think of a reason why sodium acetate would be offensive in your nose, you probably don't want a significant amount in there but it's better than an acid right? Of course ideally you would dissolve it in a strong acid right away like reformer says.

Paradisum, the way I did it is dissolve a known amount in isopropanol which is a type of alcohol, then added that to a carrier which in my case is mannitol. I am told this is a shitty carrier since it may clog your nose but I calculated an appropriate amount that would be suited to snort. Not an unhandy tiny bit but not a whole lot either. Then I repeatedly mixed it as it dried to get it homogeneous (mixed evenly), and let it dry completely.

That does not seem to be a very popular technique though, most say snorting the liquid is great. So yes you will have to make a calculated solution for that. Measure as much as you can or have on that scale, the more you measure the more accurate you can weigh it. Then you will have to calculate a volume of water or alcohol (if its ethanol it should not be denatured), that can be measured effectively. To do that buy plastic syringes of the net that can take 1 ml, and have lines at every 0.1 ml. Calculate it in a way that makes a dose like... 200 ul? (that is 0.2 ml) so 1 mg/ml would be okay. That makes 0.2 ml a dose of 200 ug.

After you dissolved the compound mix it well and make sure everything is dissolved completely. If in doubt, gently apply heat but not so much that you evaporate a significant amount of liquid. Furthermore of course work in a way that costs you the least amount of material in the process.

There doesn't appear to be enough information to prove the stability of the compound in a solution. That makes it uncomfortable to store in liquid form for a prolonged period, and contradicts what I said about preparing as much as possible for your error margin. I solved this by using a solid carrier. I can keep it in solid form while having the practicality of being able to dose without a sub-mg scale.

There is no easy way to deal with this, store it in a fridge and hope for the best I guess. Another possibility is to buy a few vials, putting the solution divided across them and letting all but one vial dry up. Then you know the separated portions, and can still keep it as a solid. I guess that's fine.

If you don't understand, get someone to help you who does and read the thread again a few times. If you still don't get it I advise you don't use this compound because this basic understanding is needed for you not to fuck up and miscalculate the dose by a factor 10 or something like that. Seriously, think about it. If you are not competent then you are like a layman playing with a chemical weapon. It's nothing personal, just... stay the hell away please.


----------



## Paradisum

Thannks!


Ya I am just interested. I'm still a bit confused so maybe I will either buy this and save it till more research is done or purchase another chem and meet with 25c another time. Thanks for the help  I don't feel like being the first death on this chem


----------



## rizla1

ok for my solution 4-5 drops of vinegar were used in a mix of 50% vodca 50% water . 
it would not all disolve straight away so i boiled a cup of water , and set my vial in to safely heat up the solution. that helped it dissolve. also more vodca was added.
so it ended up at around 2mg / ml    1 drop is around but 100 ug/31 ul but diluted with more vodca   so 80-90ug per 31 ul. :D hope this helps 
 insulfation is barable at 20% alcohol  its only a few drops. lol

has any 1 made  polysorbate 80  solution with this? i would be intrested if it will help absorption.:D


----------



## ayavisions

Ok well I may have botched my solution a little and given my throat a bit of a shock but all in the name of science.. or something like that.. 

But after heating it enough to satisfy myself it was all in solution I dosed approx 200ug via liquid insufflation - My first 100uL went straight into my throat  so I added another 40uL, hence dose is only approx.

After 15 minutes I feel the first sensations a light amphetamine push. Over the next 45 minutes I have a really annoying shakes getting progressively worse, not intense but my whole body was vibrating physically.  The come up was not as described by others but physically pretty rough physically...

About 1hr after ingestion I got restless and was going to go for a walk at this point my laptop screen looks liquid but everything else seems fine.  On the way to get a bottle of water to take with me I rinse out a bottle - I then have the most physically euphoric and physically psychedelic 90 minutes of 2011 so far whilst washing up with ice-cold water.  Now I hate washing up and I am rarely productive in this way when on any psychedelics, but the water in my hands felt so solid and shine of the washing up liquid and well everything.  I felt like a five year old again  

Once I finished washing up the peak had ended and I felt very good and laid in the bedroom talking to my girlfriend, the effects slowly faded until 5hrs after ingestion and I am left with a moderate headache that is still present now nearly 8 hours after ingestion.

I don't want to compare this to anything, it is what it is and to me it has a lot of potential and will be trying 400-600ug next weekend if all goes well.


----------



## MoFo_S

*Effects*

It's too bad people aren't discussing the effects of this substance more.  It's really interesting stuff. I took three blotters between cheek and gum (350mcg each) and had decently strong effects. Beautiful visuals, a sense of awe, clear thoughts, a pleasant body energy, virtually no negative effects. It has that rare "sparkle" which few psychedelics have.

If the dosing was easier, I think this stuff would be quite popular.


----------



## OrphicTrench

^^ So you say that you took 1050 ug between cheek and gum? The ROA was definitely not very effective in that case, or maybe you didn't leave it 15-20 minutes inside your mouth without strictly swallowing anything... I don't know but I'm still glad you had a nice experience. Better recheck your method, though. I'll be checking buccal soon too.


----------



## MoFo_S

*Roa*

Yeah I agree the ROA I used surely is not delivering all of the drug. Before I took three (about a month before) I took one (350mcg) and that gave me a tiny buzz, dilated pupils, and little else. So in my next test, I went with three, and that proved about a perfect dose.

A friend of mine tried two, and that seemed to produce enjoyable effects, if not as strong as my latter test.

In all instances, spit was held in the mouth (at great strain) for twenty minutes, so I'd say that's the best you're going to do with this ROA. The advantage of course is not having to deal with the measurement, which may make it worth the extra cost of buying blotter, especially if you don't plan to use it very often.


----------



## MattPsy

The abbreviation AA really shouldn't be used for acetic acid because AA is the most common name for acetic anhydride, a similar but different chemical in many ways, being it's [acetic acid] acid anhydride. Commonly used to acetylate morphine to heroin/diacetylmorphine. Seeing AA mistakenly used for making the acetate salt of 25C would be unfortunate.

Just make the HCl salt. The citrate salt also has reasonable solubility IIRC.
Also, the person wanting polysorbate 80 info, just check earlier in the thread, there was some discussion about it - I have tried it and it works well.


----------



## reformer

MattPsy said:


> The abbreviation AA really shouldn't be used for acetic acid because AA is the most common name for acetic anhydride



AA isn't a name. It's an abbreviation, and I clearly noted it's association with the material under discussion (acetic acid). 

If you want to go that route, abbreviations should not be used at all, as more often than not they have multiple associations. Saying one tentative association is more legitimate than another that is nearly as nebulous serves no purpose here.


----------



## Dondante

I tried 2C-C-NBOMe again this weekend, this time via sublingual administration. It's much more convenient to carry a few paper tabs while backpacking, but it's definitely less potent this way, maybe 50% of nasal potency. There's also a much more gradual come-up and a longer plateau. 

To prepare the tabs, I dropped 7.5 µL (375 µg) on small squares cut from card stock and let the water evaporate. After hiking out to my destination and setting up my tent, I put one tab under my tongue, waited 15-20 minutes, and then, feeling only slightly off baseline, put a second tab in the same spot. The onset was gradual, with the peak around 1 hr and residual stimulation lasting until 8-9 hrs. In comparison, my experience with a dose of 500 µg administered nasally 3 weeks earlier resulted in departure from baseline in less than 2 minutes and a peak within 10 minutes. Sublingual admin seems to be, at most, 50% as potent as nasal. Still, 750 µg sublingual provided a full +++, with characteristic spectacular visuals and plenty to look at from the top of The Roan, TN!


----------



## OrphicTrench

Beautiful place Dondante!


----------



## Mitchi

When you take it sublingual, do you then keep the spit in the mouth or do you swallow it? 

(of course you have to swallow, eventually)


----------



## Dondante

^I kind of tried not to swallow, but I inevitably did. I rubbed the card stock under my tongue, under the assumption that roughing it up a bit might increase absorption. I also tried to keep it pressed against my sublingual tissue after I noticed that the paper tabs were kind of just floating around in a saliva pool. Lastly, I placed the small squares with the chemical side down (the side that I made the drop on) against my sublingual tissue to maximize absorption.  Just FYI, 2C-C-NBOMe is a somewhat bitter and will cause whatever it comes in contact with to become numb.


----------



## MattPsy

reformer said:


> AA isn't a name. It's an abbreviation, and I clearly noted it's association with the material under discussion (acetic acid).
> 
> If you want to go that route, abbreviations should not be used at all, as more often than not they have multiple associations. Saying one tentative association is more legitimate than another that is nearly as nebulous serves no purpose here.



I would agree, except in  this case they are both chemicals. It's not like I was pulling you up about your use of the abbreviation AA in the context of say, car insurance, in which case AA to refer to Automobile Association would be perfectly fine. In this case, however, they are both chemicals, and almost identical.


----------



## Dondante

^AA makes me think arachadonic acid.


----------



## sekio

Some preliminary tests were done with 1mg/ml solution + some polysorbate 20, 150ug sublingual in one subject produced mild intoxication similar to low-dose LSD, 350ug in another produced a stronger, 'giggly' trip, with walls breathing and trails. This is definitely interesting material and may be considerably more active with an excipent.


----------



## Rusted Chains

Just some info for 2-c researchers in the USA. Might be time to stock up on supplies folks.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s112-839


----------



## MattPsy

Dondante said:


> ^AA makes me think arachadonic acid.



You serotonin GPCR pharmacology geek, you 

.. (and in a whole lot of other stuff, being a cellular signal in a more general sense...)
Arachadonic acid is pretty topical though %)


----------



## ayavisions

Time to bump this thread...
Rectal administration of 750ug gave a shorter duration than nasal, took about 40mins to reach peak effects.  Smooth come-up, just snuck upon me.  Excellent experience visually comparable with 2 nice tabs of LSD.  Mentally it doesn't touch on acid but certainly has a similar 'sparkle' or 'magic' that makes everything well.. magical I suppose.  The comedown was gradual with a beer and within 5 hours of administration I was baseline (with some stimulation perhaps, and slight headache).  Really beginning to like this one, and think I may have found a good dose level here.  Maybe again next week, but not if the the DOC arrives first....


----------



## Solipsis

MattPsy said:


> Seeing AA mistakenly used for making the acetate salt of 25C would be unfortunate.



Acetic anhydride is tightly regulated precisely because heroin is made using it, so that would really limit the unfortunate chance of that happening. Anyone having the anhydride probably knows enough about it not to be a fool with it.

I want propionic anhydride to prepare tryptamine esters but it would probably require me to synthesize the anhydride myself. 
Oh well off topic.


----------



## OrphicTrench

New question popped out on my head this morning... Would adding a small drop of Listerine just before buccal consumption help absorbing better? I know that washing your mouth and getting it super clean before sublingual or buccal administration is always recommended, but would keeping... let's say 1mL of Listerine there make it any better?


----------



## atara

Anhydride, shmanhyride, it's all about the nitrile.





> New question popped out on my head this morning... Would adding a small drop of Listerine just before buccal consumption help absorbing better? I know that washing your mouth and getting it super clean before sublingual or buccal administration is always recommended, but would keeping... let's say 1mL of Listerine there make it any bette



I doubt it. Maybe everclear.


----------



## Solipsis

If you hold that stuff in your mouth for a while it definitely 'burns' a little. Weakly but still. Everclear is way over the top, vodka or whiskey is probably strong enough. Listerine is better than nothing if you ask me. Scrub your mouth to get rid of the dead epithilium, the alcohol helps and IIRC it widens the blood vessels under your tongue and in cheeks and/or brings them more to the surface.
If 25C does not absorb as well as LSD does, I don't think this is such a bad idea. May shorten the time necessary to hold it in your mouth.

What about the nitrile, I don't quite follow?


----------



## VandiLLisM

*25 c nbome cpl more questions*

Couldnt find exact answers.  Is the only difference in hcl and F.base c nbome the strength when smoked? Or is HCL slightly stronger? If I were planning on just snorting it would the Fbase be fine? Also if I liquid measure can I just drop the water in my nose to absorb or would it simply drip to fast and skip absorption?

So if I have the Fbase how do I go about dissolving it or converting it to the hcl? I want to make a liquid solution but all of the info I have found on doing so was with the HCL


----------



## sekio

25C-NBOMe freebase does not dissolve in water and would be better for vapourisation, the HCl salt is water soluble and is 0.903x as potent as freebase. 

The HCl salt dissolved in water is probably a better choice than trying to get the freebase dissolved in vinegar or whatever.


----------



## ayavisions

The freebase will not dissolve in water.  The HCL will.  If you use water I would  use 2mg/ml solution and get an insulin syringe (1ml/1cc/100insulin units) and dose half in each nostril.  Then 0.1ml will be 200micrograms.


----------



## allium

Freebase version should be slightly more potent by weight(~10% due to absence of HCl), but freebases and salts can have different properties, so absorption rates, solubility can be different.

I suggest you to check The B&D 25C-NBOMe thread, it contains a lot of useful information. 
Just click "Search this Thread" link and type in keywords. 
Here is the report on smoking: 


			
				MattPsy said:
			
		

> Oh, and as for smoking it, yes, the HCl salt works far better than the freebase, the freebase shows signs of decomposition when smoked whereas the HCl evaporates cleanly.





			
				VandiLLisM said:
			
		

> Also if I liquid measure can I just drop the water in my nose to absorb


It is indeed possible, but can be tricky, if you use too much amount of water. I guess your nostrils can  hold 0.2-0.4 ml without dripping, just make sure you dose properly(try putting plain water firstly). 
And if your solution isn't strong enough, I advise you to stagger your dose: drop 0.2 ml and 15 minutes after another 0.2 ml, and so on.


----------



## VandiLLisM

So 250mcg of the hcl should be equal to 500mcgs of the fbase?


----------



## allium

No, ~550 mcg of the HCl is equipotent to 500 mcg of the freebase. Of course, assumptions about bioavailability and absorption rate should be made.


----------



## VandiLLisM

So if I have the Fbase how do I go about dissolving it or converting it to the hcl? I want to make a liquid solution but all of the info I have found on doing so was with the HCL


----------



## sekio

Dissolve it in an equimolar amount of hydrochloric acid. Alternatively you can form other salts like the citrate, acetate etc. with the appropriate acids. If you use HCl then you can simply evaporate the solvent and excess acid off, but if you use anything else you should be careful how much acid you add or you'll burn your nose with the resulting solution...

It might be hard to get the freebase into solution without heat or stirring.


----------



## ayavisions

add about .1ml of white vinegar per 5mg freebase and it should dissolve, then add water up to the until you have the the volume you want.  So for 10mg freebase, added the 25c into a 10ml amber glass vial, add 0.2ml of vinegar and wait overnight or heat slightly until dissolved, add 6.5ml of water to make a solution of 150ug/0.1ml and its all set


----------



## VandiLLisM

is that measurement exact?


----------



## azide

He said *about* so I'd assume no, not an exact measurement.  I would read up a bit on your basic chemistry before messing with such a potent chemical. Having a pile of 25C freebase lying around is a great way to endanger your life and the life of this chemical.

/lecture

-n=n=n


----------



## reformer

Just a note on solubility- I know some people are limited to measuring in 0.1 ml increments, but for those not limited in this manner, much higher concentration aqueous solutions can be achieved in distilled water, with little to no heating, than are currently being discussed. 

A solution of 8.34 mg/ml in distilled water is readily made with no heating, and then a 0.03 ml droplet provides 250 ug and with this minuscule volume, there is no possibility of drainage.


----------



## ayavisions

azide said:


> He said *about* so I'd assume no, not an exact measurement.  I would read up a bit on your basic chemistry before messing with such a potent chemical. Having a pile of 25C freebase lying around is a great way to endanger your life and the life of this chemical.
> 
> /lecture
> 
> -n=n=n



^This

The way I described works and anyone could do it.  That does not mean that they should.  One mistake could easily be the end of you (like a small lump not dissolving, or not knowing how much you started with (what if you think you have 5mg and you have 10mg?)Please be careful.


----------



## KingBlueTwista

I've got a small amount of this making its way to me right now, the only problem is that it's on blotters. It seems the general consensus on this board is that sublingual is an unpredictable and potentially wasteful RoA. Since I don't have much to play around with I wanna know is there any way to prepare a blotter for nasal or rectal administration? Or am I stuck with sublingual?


----------



## Dondante

^I'd probably just stick with sublingual. IME, it's roughly 50% potency of nasal, but still effective. It would be too much trouble/potentially wasteful to try to prepare the blotter for nasal admin. 

You could also try rectal...no prep necessary. I'd be interested to hear comparisons of the effectiveness of rectal vs. sublingual.


----------



## KingBlueTwista

What so just push the blotter up in there? What if it doesn't reach the absorption spot?

I'm a little hesitant to do that as I've wasted precious material in the same way before... and I've been wanting to try this stuff soooo bad since I read the few very positive reports!

Would it not be more likely to work if I were to shred the blotter, put it in a small amount of water and then inject in the behind with a needless syringe?


----------



## ayavisions

KingBlueTwista said:


> Would it not be more likely to work if I were to shred the blotter, put it in a small amount of water and then inject in the behind with a needless syringe?



This should work much better than sublingual, I find the dose nasally and rectally to be the same.


----------



## herbata_yanga

put it between gum and cheek/or under gum and move it from time to time, don't swallow split, hold it for 20-25 minutes, then swallow it...


----------



## Delsyd

Why arentbthese drugs active orally?


----------



## MattPsy

Locked up in lipid layers due to strange distribution of polarity across the molecule. Short answer.


----------



## reformer

MattPsy said:


> Locked up in lipid layers due to strange distribution of polarity across the molecule. Short answer.



Not likely that explanation answers the oral bioavailability question.

As a few people have mentioned here previously, it's more likely that the 2-methoxy benzyl portion of the molecule is rapidly metabolized during first pass hepatic metabolism to produce products of greatly reduced potency. 

This might be de-benzylation to produce the original 2CC, which is inactive at these doses, or perhaps demethyltion and glucuronidation of the demethylated phenol to promote rapid urinary and bile excretion.


----------



## atara

Delsyd said:


> Why arentbthese drugs active orally?



I believe it has something to do with mono-amine oxidase deactivation -- MAO can't very well bind to the "left" side (the 2C-C side) but it should have no problem binding to the "right" side (the BOMe) since the single methoxy substituent on the benzyl isn't enough to block it.

This doesn't mean the compound is entirely orally inactive -- it could have something like 7% oral bioavailability, so if anyone really wants to get rid of some money you can try to find an oral dosage level...


----------



## anima

May someone outline the differnces between 25C and 25D NBOMe?

Is one of it more psychedelic/introspective (like LSD, Bromo-DF and 2C-E are for me, to give you an picture of my perception) and the other more recreational.
Or is there any other reason to prefer one or the other?
I likt to test both of them but will order just one of it first because of money reasons ... maybe at first the more recreational one if one existes. In comparison to to 2C-C and 2C-D my guess is that the 25D NBOMe is more psychedelic.

I'd love to read some of your cherished estimations 

Light & Love,
anima


----------



## Solipsis

anima said:


> May someone outline the differnces between 25C and 25D NBOMe?
> 
> Is one of it more psychedelic/introspective (like LSD, Bromo-DF and 2C-E are for me, to give you an picture of my perception) and the other more recreational.
> Or is there any other reason to prefer one or the other?
> I likt to test both of them but will order just one of it first because of money reasons ... maybe at first the more recreational one if one existes. In comparison to to 2C-C and 2C-D my guess is that the 25D NBOMe is more psychedelic.
> 
> I'd love to read some of your cherished estimations
> 
> Light & Love,
> anima



I don't know the NBOMe's myself from experience (though I have a number of them in collection)... but 2C-D definitely was weaker for me than 2C-C. From what I have read 2C-D is expected to be more lucid but less psychedelic, more stimulating and less relaxing. Both have been called recreational, but 25C-NBOme sounds more beautiful and interesting.


----------



## MattPsy

Interesting hypothesis regarding the 2-methoxybenzyl moiety, that should be EASILY tested. (not at home, but I imagine it will be done in due course by researchers, probably in a radioligand labeling study)

The 2,3-MD derivative also has extremely poor oral bioavailability and I have more trouble buying the MAO hypothesis for this too (lots more steric hindrance!), but we shall see eventually.


----------



## TheGrimSqueaker

I made a solution of 11mg/1ml of 40% alcohol with the HCL and it dissolved without even agitation.
Loaded two 550mcg doses (0.05ml) onto blotter and administered sublingually.
I had a wonderful time and was thoroughly impressed but my gf experienced fairly high amounts of nausea and general discomfort, for almost the entirety of the trip...
Reading through others reports I've not found much that sounds similar to how she felt.
Another female friend dosed 550mcg nasally and had similar body effects to my gf while her boyfriend who took the same dose was fine (although he didn't have the strongest trip due to a slight over zealous snorting).
tl;dr - Any women experienced discomfort with this? Any explanations?
Also


Solipsis said:


> the way I did it is dissolve a known amount in isopropanol which is a type of alcohol, then added that to a carrier which in my case is mannitol. Then I repeatedly mixed it as it dried to get it homogeneous, and let it dry completely.



Solipsis, from what i've read in your posts about mannitol I'm assuming it's a solid, is that right?
So one could possibly substitute it for something more readily available like glucose to create a snortable powder rather than the usual liquid?
In the interest of saving money I much prefer nasal admin, but I'd rather not leave it in soln for ages although I've read it's stable, I also don't know how long it will be before i take it.


----------



## someguy

^^^
I've been considering good ol creatine instead of mannitol. Usually the cheaper stuff is a real fine powder that Ive seen used countless times as a cut for things like ketamine and have never complained too much.   Might be ghetto but it works...


----------



## sekio

The reason Solipsis used mannitol and not glucose is because glucose is more hygroscopic. Don't want to have your samples mysteriously gaining water mass from the air...


----------



## allium

Hm, what other chemicals can be used to cut your own sample?
Also, how pure should be IPA?


----------



## IamMe90

isn't IPA relatively unhealthy to consume? I knwo the amounts are small.. but i'm not sure why 80 proof liquor couldn't achieve the same effect? (but i could be completely wrong)


----------



## TheGrimSqueaker

Aaaah that makes sense about the hygroscopic. Would end up under dosing all the time and that's just plain awful. :D
Your not actually consuming the IPA, just using it to dissolve the 25C and the carrier then evaporating it.


----------



## IamMe90

ooo ok makes sense :D


----------



## dc710

So I've been interested in this new compound since it came on the scene. I finally decided it was better to try a first attempt at the blotters as I have no safe way to measure it otherwise. I can say that 1 and a half blotters makes for a very worthwhile experience. For me this is just a nice level, not too much and a decent amount of interesting visuals (not hallucinations but the world just looks better somehow!) and acid like feelings. I've been listening to the Daft Punk Tron soundtrack and it's just been awesome really. Might go for a walk in a bit and check out the views %) Thumbs up from me for this stuff.


----------



## VandiLLisM

*plzz need help asap*

Can I use ispropal 91% alcohol for fbase 25 c nbome and how much would i use for 10mg?


----------



## <<ellisd>>

What do you plan on doing with the 25C-NBOMe fb when it's in the 91% IPA?


----------



## any major dude

VandiLLisM said:


> Can I use ispropal 91% alcohol for fbase 25 c nbome and how much would i use for 10mg?



 seriously?  just one page back you asked the same question & received multiple good answers...  also, i closed one thread & directed you here then you posted another  don't do that.



sekio said:


> 25C-NBOMe freebase does not dissolve in water and would be better for vapourisation, the HCl salt is water soluble and is 0.903x as potent as freebase.
> 
> The HCl salt dissolved in water is probably a better choice than trying to get the freebase dissolved in vinegar or whatever.





VandiLLisM said:


> Couldnt find exact answers.  Is the only difference in hcl and F.base c nbome the strength when smoked? Or is HCL slightly stronger? If I were planning on just snorting it would the Fbase be fine? Also if I liquid measure can I just drop the water in my nose to absorb or would it simply drip to fast and skip absorption?
> 
> So if I have the Fbase how do I go about dissolving it or converting it to the hcl? I want to make a liquid solution but all of the info I have found on doing so was with the HCL





ayavisions said:


> The freebase will not dissolve in water.  The HCL will.  If you use water I would  use 2mg/ml solution and get an insulin syringe (1ml/1cc/100insulin units) and dose half in each nostril.  Then 0.1ml will be 200micrograms.





allium said:


> Freebase version should be slightly more potent by weight(~10% due to absence of HCl), but freebases and salts can have different properties, so absorption rates, solubility can be different.
> 
> I suggest you to check The B&D 25C-NBOMe thread, it contains a lot of useful information.
> Just click "Search this Thread" link and type in keywords.
> Here is the report on smoking:
> 
> 
> 
> It is indeed possible, but can be tricky, if you use too much amount of water. I guess your nostrils can  hold 0.2-0.4 ml without dripping, just make sure you dose properly(try putting plain water firstly).
> And if your solution isn't strong enough, I advise you to stagger your dose: drop 0.2 ml and 15 minutes after another 0.2 ml, and so on.





sekio said:


> Dissolve it in an equimolar amount of hydrochloric acid. Alternatively you can form other salts like the citrate, acetate etc. with the appropriate acids. If you use HCl then you can simply evaporate the solvent and excess acid off, but if you use anything else you should be careful how much acid you add or you'll burn your nose with the resulting solution...
> 
> It might be hard to get the freebase into solution without heat or stirring.





ayavisions said:


> add about .1ml of white vinegar per 5mg freebase and it should dissolve, then add water up to the until you have the the volume you want.  So for 10mg freebase, added the 25c into a 10ml amber glass vial, add 0.2ml of vinegar and wait overnight or heat slightly until dissolved, add 6.5ml of water to make a solution of 150ug/0.1ml and its all set


----------



## VandiLLisM

Not one of those gives me a measurement for the alcohol just vinager.  Sorry if its the same measurement and Im not aware but like I said in both of my threads i need a little specific assistance.  So try again please?


----------



## sekio

There are research *chemicals*, don't expect there to be tons of data about them! Learn some *chemistry* if you're going to be playing around with *chemicals*. Don't expect answers handed to you on a silver platter.

I doubt freebase 25C-NBOMe will dissolve in 91% isopropanol to a good concentration. Freebases are usually best off dissolved in aprotic solvents.

Freebase 25C-NBOMe would be soluble in acetone, I bet. Or you could just use vinegar as stated before - I don't even know if the freebase would be absorbed via sublingual dosing...


----------



## whataboutheforests

wish this stuff wasn't so expensive, I want to try it!


----------



## someguy

I really can't think of a rc that's cheaper to be honest...


----------



## undisclosed

someguy said:


> I really can't think of a rc that's cheaper to be honest...



I was pleasantly surprised at the price too.


----------



## calculateddesign

As far as I can tell the price of this RC (and NBOMe's in general) is set respective to active dose so it makes it about the same price as the phenethylamine counterpart.  the only difference is the cost of equipment needed to safely handle and dose 25c-NBOMe.  I think liquid drops on a snortable surfactant like mannitol or lecithin is definetly the cheapest/easiest way to use this.

just a thought...  doesnt BMeO as in benzyl-methoxy sound wayyy better than NBOMe?  just say it, "bee-mee-o" I just drop the N cuz im sure we here all know the benzyl-methoxy group is attached at the nitrogen.  then extended for 25C-NBOMe, "see-bee-mee-o"  like CBMeO. It totally rolls off the tounge like c3po.  i think that slang could catch on


----------



## MattPsy

sekio said:


> I doubt freebase 25C-NBOMe will dissolve in 91% isopropanol to a good concentration. Freebases are usually best off dissolved in aprotic solvents.
> 
> Freebase 25C-NBOMe would be soluble in acetone, I bet. Or you could just use vinegar as stated before - I don't even know if the freebase would be absorbed via sublingual dosing...



You are correct - 25C freebase is poorly soluble in IPA (even pure IPA, not 91% ), acceptable solubility in acetone, insoluble in toluene. 25C HCl is soluble in water and acetone (!).


----------



## IGNVS

shit, a few months ago it was like pulling teeth to get a post about this stuff... 25 pages?!! im impressed


----------



## VandiLLisM

What kind of snortable substance could i apply this too to take a few hits out with me to avoid taking my whole vial? I was thinking baking soda but iv never heard anything about actually using it to cut/snort except in movie n tv and shit.  I was thinking it wouldnt matter because the amount would be so small but im sure there could be a more efficient thing to use.  Where could I get manitol also? I looked around but was kinda lost since I had no idea where to look in the first place.


----------



## MattPsy

Um, icing sugar?
Seriously, this only requires a little thought. Icing sugar is not a good long term solution because it's liable to pick up moisture from the air, but if you just want a carrier for a night or two it'd probably be fine.

Mannitol: for an example, http://purebulk.com/mannitol
first page of google search results. really not hard to find, why couldn't you have done this yourself?

I've used erythritol and sorbitol (both polyols like mannitol) too for this purpose, any of these work well as they are nonhygroscopic (don't absorb water from atmosphere).


----------



## calculateddesign

Um, icing sugar?

really? have you snorted powdered sugar before?  Ive never tried...  id imagine something as sweet and tasty as sugar would feel pretty odd in my nose.


----------



## B9

whataboutheforests said:


> wish this stuff wasn't so expensive, I want to try it!




Look harder


----------



## Incunabula

VandiLLisM said:


> What kind of snortable substance could i apply this too to take a few hits out with me to avoid taking my whole vial? I was thinking baking soda but iv never heard anything about actually using it to cut/snort except in movie n tv and shit.  I was thinking it wouldnt matter because the amount would be so small but im sure there could be a more efficient thing to use.  Where could I get manitol also? I looked around but was kinda lost since I had no idea where to look in the first place.


As some one already suggested, earlier in this thread, why not just use Creatine. It´s what cocaine and amphetamine is often cut with.

You can buy it in any shop that sells supplements for body builders.


----------



## Help?!?!

Hello, I will be receiving a sample of some blottered 25C(unfortunately, would rather of received powder). I'm in the process of of finding out if its FB or HCl. What would be the best ROA for me to use with this? I have heard the disappointing story of sub lingual hundreds of times and even though I rarely have trouble with it, would like to avoid this as it could be wasteful. I wasn't even planning on sampling this one, but all the talk of high selectivity akin to LSD, well count me in!


----------



## MattPsy

calculateddesign said:


> Um, icing sugar?
> 
> really? have you snorted powdered sugar before?  Ive never tried...  id imagine something as sweet and tasty as sugar would feel pretty odd in my nose.



Yes, powdered sucrose is very pleasant to insufflate actually.


----------



## uncomfortablepants

I'm planning on converting the freebase with acetic acid and dissolving in glycerin. 

Any thoughts on this??

I'm  hoping the glycerin will increase the absorption and reduce the drip down the back of the throat.

I'm worried about how hygroscopic it is though.  Maybe I'll have to add some water.


----------



## calculateddesign

could one measure doses in say distilled water, then lets hypothetically say one drop of the liquid has 200mcg, drop that onto powdered sugar and let the water evaporate or would the sugar absorb that water and get all icky?


----------



## sekio

It's really hard to evaporate water out of sugar (sucrose) without an oven, it likes to form syrups.


----------



## azide

*Tolerance*

25c-nBOMe appears to have (and I've heard this confirmed) LSD like tolerance. Having tried a dose of around 500mcg a second time with no tolerance resulted in a much stronger experience than my first time, more akin to 3-4 hits of lucy, except much more detail (if that is at all possible) and for me at least, somewhat easier to handle. I have a higher than average sensitivity to both these chemicals, so ymmv.

500mcg was adm on blotter, upper lip, freebase converted to the acetate, and I was peaking by 30-40 minutes in. Bit like a rocket ride on the way up, rolling waves of effect, and feeling pretty damn good the morning after.


----------



## undisclosed

azide said:


> 25c-nBOMe appears to have (and I've heard this confirmed)
> 
> 500mcg was adm on blotter, upper lip, freebase converted to the acetate, and I was peaking by 30-40 minutes in. Bit like a rocket ride on the way up, rolling waves of effect, and feeling pretty damn good the morning after.



Just so I understand exactly what you're saying..... Did you convert freebase into acetate yourself and make your own blotters?  Or did you just buy the blotters "as they come".

In either case, could you say which method you used to create the acetate?


----------



## dc710

Ok just for those who might've been interested this mixes with nitrous very nicely indeed. Full blown blasted into another world type stuff. Just awesome, time slowing to a stand still and music, sound and colour complete synesthesia! Had a memorable and most intense time


----------



## Unelmaporsas

I've got 500mcg blotters of 25c, would you say these are completely useless? Should I just stick them up my ass or try to dissolve the drug from the blotters to water or alcohol instead of trying sublingual? I really want to give this drug a proper try!


----------



## uncomfortablepants

^^^^ I bet just using it rectally would be pretty easy.  You could put it in a gelcap if you needed to first.

If I had to get it off the blotter I would rinse it with a ml or two of acetone into something, let it evaporate and then repeat a couple times.  Then add a ml of water to what you rinsed it in until it's dissolved, then snort when you're ready.
and maybe take the leftover blotter sublingual just in case.





On another note I made a solution today that was really easy. 
50mg dissolved into 3ml of distilled white vinegar. ( took a little stirring and smashing the leftover bits with a very small screwdriver)
Then that was dissolved into 20ml of distilled water and 27ml of glycerol.

Final solution is 1mg/ml and thicker than water to prevent nasal drip and hopefully help with absorption a bit.


----------



## Unelmaporsas

uncomfortablepants said:


> ^^^^ I bet just using it rectally would be pretty easy.  You could put it in a gelcap if you needed to first.



Thanks, mate. I'll probably try that one... so, I just cut up the blotter in smaller pieces and stick it in and that should do the trick?


----------



## uncomfortablepants

Unelmaporsas said:


> Thanks, mate. I'll probably try that one... so, I just cut up the blotter in smaller pieces and stick it in and that should do the trick?



I think that would work.
as long as your rectum is pretty free of feces and you got all of the blotter/25C in there it should absorb pretty well.


----------



## azide

I made my own blotters from freebase; I measured dose onto paper square, then solvated into medium using dropwise addition of acetic acid. Accurate, but quite laborious.


----------



## uncomfortablepants

With a solution of 20ml of water, 27ml of glycerine and 3ml of %5 distilled venegar and 25C-C. 

It burns a bit intranasally. Nothing too bad. Seems to absorb well enough despite producing a lot of mucous that had to be swallowed.

T. 0 hr-  Mxe 17mg
T. 1.5hr- 0.33mg 25C-C + 17mg Mxe
T. 5.0hr- 7mg Mxe

Beautifully amazing.


----------



## Survived Abortion

I'll have some of this in my posession any time soon. It is important to me to get a liquid volumetric measuring/storage thing going on for this particular chemical. I use volumetric measuring for other chemicals, without the storage part, simply utilizing measured syringes and immediate dosing strategies. I need to ask a question about storing it in vials:

How large a vile would I need in order to keep 20mg in solution? This is considering that 350-500μg is a dose, and that I would be using an appropriate amount of liquid for each dose, measures with a syringe incremented to 0.1ml . Should I use one large vial, or several small ones? 

I haven't stored my own liquid solutions in vials before. It might be good to know what type of vial to use and what method of closure for glass vials. Are plastic vials okay for long-term storage of these chemicals? 

Forgive me for the torrent of questions. I'm not laboratory savvy, but I would like to do it right. If there are any easier ways to do this without getting beakers and flasks or wotnot, I would appreciate your input. Thank you!


----------



## uncomfortablepants

^^^^You could use one large vial. As long as it's not too big to where you can't easily suck out the liquid with and oral syringe. 

Making a 1mg/ml solution and using a one ml oral syringe seemed to work pretty well.


I use small HDPE plastic containers with screw on lids. I would guess they are ok for storage but not certain.


----------



## SpecialK_

I'm considering getting a small amount of 25C-NBOMe freebase, but I have a few questions.

Am I able to easily just take what I get, weigh it, put it in distilled water and use the typical liquid measurement - like I would for say 2C-E?

If not, what's the easiest/most accessible method of making this happen?

With dosing intranasally, would I be able to just use a oral syringe and shoot a small amount of distilled water containing the chemical or would this be impractical? I'm used to either eating the blotter, swallowing the liquid or railing lines, this is the first time I've came across a substance in ug that isn't effective orally. Are there any other simpler methods?


----------



## uncomfortablepants

SpecialK_ said:


> I'm considering getting a small amount of 25C-NBOMe freebase, but I have a few questions.
> 
> Am I able to easily just take what I get, weigh it, put it in distilled water and use the typical liquid measurement - like I would for say 2C-E?
> 
> If not, what's the easiest/most accessible method of making this happen?
> 
> With dosing intranasally, would I be able to just use a oral syringe and shoot a small amount of distilled water containing the chemical or would this be impractical? I'm used to either eating the blotter, swallowing the liquid or railing lines, this is the first time I've came across a substance in ug that isn't effective orally. Are there any other simpler methods?



Whatever you do don't rail lines of it

the freebase won't dissolve in water. 
This is what I found easy. 

add distilled vinegar to 25C until it dissolves completely. I found 50mg to very easily dissolve in 3ml of distilled vinegar. 

(Distilled water may be slightly basic too, so it may help to use more distilled vinegar than neccesary)

then dissolve that solution in distilled water.

making a final solution of 1mg/ml works well and can be dispensed with a 1ml oral syringe.






PS IMO it is not all that spectacular to risk using if anyone has any uncertainty about how to safely dose it.


----------



## Solipsis

So, snorting a concentrated solution / using a syringe without needle to squirt it up the nose is more reliable than sublingual or buccal blotters right? It seems that anecdotal evidence and experience reports point to that. It has probably been covered already but what about volumes? Has someone found an optimal volume to administer a drug i.e. the max that will not drip away if done correctly? Of course a nasal spray would be much much more efficient at that, but what about doses in small syringes?


----------



## Survived Abortion

uncomfortablepants said:


> ^^^^You could use one large vial. As long as it's not too big to where you can't easily suck out the liquid with and oral syringe.
> 
> Making a 1mg/ml solution and using a one ml oral syringe seemed to work pretty well.
> 
> 
> I use small HDPE plastic containers with screw on lids. I would guess they are ok for storage but not certain.



Thanks!!


----------



## any major dude

uncomfortablepants said:


> On another note I made a solution today that was really easy.
> 50mg dissolved into 3ml of distilled white vinegar. ( took a little stirring and smashing the leftover bits with a very small screwdriver)
> Then that was dissolved into 20ml of distilled water and 27ml of glycerol.
> 
> Final solution is 1mg/ml and thicker than water to prevent nasal drip and hopefully help with absorption a bit.



How did this work out?  sounds like a pretty good idea


----------



## uncomfortablepants

any major dude said:


> How did this work out?  sounds like a pretty good idea




It worked very well but burned a bit. Nothing too bad though. Although I had already taken some MXE, which probably made me notice less. I'm not sure if it was the glycerol or the excess distilled vinegar that did it.

I don't really have much to compare it to as far as absorption goes but 0.33mg was amazing with small doses of MXE before and with.


I will probably try to find a threshold dose with it sublingually to see if it absorbs noticeably better with glycerol.


----------



## uncomfortablepants

Solipsis said:


> So, snorting a concentrated solution / using a syringe without needle to squirt it up the nose is more reliable than sublingual or buccal blotters right? It seems that anecdotal evidence and experience reports point to that. It has probably been covered already but what about volumes? Has someone found an optimal volume to administer a drug i.e. the max that will not drip away if done correctly? Of course a nasal spray would be much much more efficient at that, but what about doses in small syringes?



Snorting with a 1ml oral syringe was very effective and accurate for myself and it seems like it has worked as well or better than anything that I read in this thread.

From what I remember reading, under 1ml seemed to be ok for each nostril. and preferably under 0.5 ml. 

I really liked 0.33ml. It was enough where I could actually get it up my nose and didn't drip other than mucous that developed after dosing.


----------



## any major dude

uncomfortablepants said:


> It worked very well but burned a bit. Nothing too bad though. Although I had already taken some MXE, which probably made me notice less. I'm not sure if it was the glycerol or the excess distilled vinegar that did it.
> 
> I don't really have much to compare it to as far as absorption goes but 0.33mg was amazing with small doses of MXE before and with.
> 
> 
> I will probably try to find a threshold dose with it sublingually to see if it absorbs noticeably better with glycerol.



thanks for the reply there.  I'm guessing the vinegar was to salt the freebase?


----------



## psood0nym

Solipsis said:


> Of course a nasal spray would be much much more efficient at that, but what about doses in small syringes?


I needed less than 10 insulin units to make a solution of the HCl.


----------



## harrisonbrtn

does anyone know the LD-50 for this compound?
or for 25I-NBOMe?


----------



## 34-Empathy

Seen blotter tabs of this for sale. Each tab has 355 micro g on each. Is this not active orally at all?


----------



## herbata_yanga

It is - stick blotter on your upper gum/between gum and cheek - hold it there for 20 minutes without swallowing spit ; d

works for 25d/25c/25e etc...


----------



## 34-Empathy

Brilliant! How long will the main effects last with 355 micro g?


----------



## clubberdude

harrisonbrtn said:


> does anyone know the LD-50 for this compound?
> or for 25I-NBOMe?



I don't think one has been established. I've not even seen any extrapolated LD50's (from animal data) for any of the NBOME's.


----------



## KingBlueTwista

3 said:


> Seen blotter tabs of this for sale. Each tab has 355 micro g on each. Is this not active orally at all?



Nah this isn't active orally, at least not significantly. Don't listen to that guy, there have been reports of sublingual dosing being very unreliable. And he wasn't even describing how to do it right.

If I were you I would buy it in pure powder form and suspend it in solution in order to discern the dose. Although you need the equipment and the knowhow (the latter spread throughout this thread), the cheaper price and ease of administration make it a much better choice IMO.

If you're set on blotters then by far the best way to take it would be rectally. For anyone who wants to know a reliable way to do this - Take the blotter, put it in a gelcap, lube your ass, squirt water in the cap and shove it where the sun don't shine as fast and as far up as you can.


----------



## uncomfortablepants

any major dude said:


> thanks for the reply there.  I'm guessing the vinegar was to salt the freebase?



Yep




I tried 0.1-0.15mg yesterday sublingually and was very surprised how active it was.
No visuals but a very noticeable light psychedelic stimulation was there.

I would guess with about a 50/50 glycerol/water mix a threshold sublingual dose for me is probably near 0.05mg. 







I don't know what the ld50 is but I imagine it's very reachable. I've read of a few gnarly trips with people using over 1mg. 

Play safe!!!


----------



## Survived Abortion

uncomfortablepants said:


> Yep I tried 0.1-0.15mg yesterday sublingually and was very surprised how active it was.
> No visuals but a very noticeable light psychedelic stimulation was there.
> 
> I would guess with about a 50/50 glycerol/water mix a threshold sublingual dose for me is probably near 0.05mg.



I'm wondering what a good dose would be to start with, besides allergy testing. It seems people are shooting for the 350-500ug range. How hard are you tripping on, say, 350ug compared to 500ug?

Also, I have been thinking that maybe sublingual absorption has similar issues to salvinorin, meaning that bioavailability could be greatly increased by using mouthwashes etc. prior to dosing.


----------



## azide

Buccal/Sublingual works excellent, nearly equivalent to intranasal, except in speed. The problem is with suspect dosing on pre-laid blotters.


----------



## herbata_yanga

KingBlueTwista said:


> Nah this isn't active orally, at least not significantly. Don't listen to that guy, there have been reports of sublingual dosing being very unreliable. And he wasn't even describing how to do it right.



It will probably make you sad but this method is tested by 15-20 people and it works. It is somewhat less potent but it works fine. I think that I've described it in way that it is comprehensive. And this method ISN'T sublingual.



> It is - stick blotter on your upper gum/between gum and cheek - hold it there for 20 minutes without swallowing spit ; d



It is simple - put blotter on your upper gum (either side of it will do, inside or outside), hold it there for 20 minutes without a single drop of spit being swallowed and you will see effects for yourself...


----------



## lulzkiller

Hey guys

I'm planning on testing the HCl of this compound. I will be using a 20uL fixed-volume micropipette and a solution of 10mg/1mL. This will give give me 10ug per uL and thus 200 per pipette tip. The liquid I would optimally want to use is 96% EtOH, otherwise it will probably be around 80%.

So a few questions:

People have stated that ethanol over 40% might be overkill. I'm thinking that it will contain less unwanted stuff and since I will only ingest 20-40uL (intranasally, probably), it won't burn too bad. Is this correct?

Another question:

I'm digging through this thread for solubility information. One guy has successfully made a 50mg freebase/3ml acetic acid. reformer reports someone as saying that 6-7mg per mL water has been successfully done for the  HCl. Nuke suggests that a 150uL 10% EtOH solution will be able to hold 15mg HCl, thus ending up with a 100ug per 1uL solution (this seems way out but I'm not an expert - reformer points out that its equal to 100mg/mL). Dondante did 50ug per uL.

Should I be okay with 10ug/uL in ~95% ethanol? Or should I just use a cheap 40% vodka and dilute it with distilled water until its 10 or 20%?

Thanks


----------



## uncomfortablepants

Survived Abortion said:


> I'm wondering what a good dose would be to start with, besides allergy testing. It seems people are shooting for the 350-500ug range. How hard are you tripping on, say, 350ug compared to 500ug?
> 
> Also, I have been thinking that maybe sublingual absorption has similar issues to salvinorin, meaning that bioavailability could be greatly increased by using mouthwashes etc. prior to dosing.




Intranasally, yeah, 350-500ug seems like a good start for most people here.

The most I've taken so far was 330ug with mxe. It was just touching on open eye visuals at that level, I remember the ground bubbling at one point and the sky flickering between inverted and normal colors, and the stimulation wasn't too pushy, although I would liked to have slept sooner.

I'm not sure how much the mxe potentiated but it definately helped create a calm sort of void for the effects to manifest.





the sublingual effects do seem to vary a lot.


----------



## reformer

lulzkiller said:


> The liquid I would optimally want to use is 96% EtOH



A couple of questions- Why do you want to use nearly pure ethanol? Why not simply use distilled water? 

If it's for storage purposes I can understand your goal, but even then I would ditch the ethanol and instead recommend making a water solution (no alcohol) and then dividing it up into several "aliquots" before freezing them until needed. 100-200 ul aliquots in polypropylene tubes are perfect, use larger aliquots if you share with fellow psychonauts. 

These aliquots will be good for 3-4 freeze/thaw cycles if you re-freeze it immediately after drawing your single use out: e.g. you can thaw one and then draw from it, then re-freeze it... and repeat the process at least 2-3 times without losing apparent potency. 

Make absolute sure that you pipette the freshly thawed solution up and down several times to make it homogeneous.



lulzkiller said:


> 96% EtOH... and since I will only ingest 20-40uL (intranasally, probably), it won't burn too bad. Is this correct?



I think it's still a bad idea... That isn't healthy or sustainable.




lulzkiller said:


> reformer reports someone as saying that 6-7mg per mL water has been successfully done for the  HCl.



That info has since been updated as the poster uses ~8.5 mg/ml for many NBOMe now and has no problems "solving" HCl salts of the 25C, 25D, or 25E at this concentration. 25E (the least soluble in water) takes a bit of uniform agitation (i.e. vortexing) over a few minutes to go into solution, but reasonable room temperature and no heat is required or should be applied. 

That info does not recommend going higher concentration than 8.5 mg/ml for 25E, but guesses that 25C will be soluble up to 9-10 mg/ml (no guarantees). 

Frankly, it seems that volumes of less than 30 ul don't work well for liquid insufflation. It's suggested to use 20 ul of distilled water to further dilute your "droplet" of 20 ul 25C to a final volume of 40 ul before insufflating the diluted solution. Then you can add larger proportion of 25C and less water in the 40 ul if you want to make the regimen stronger.



lulzkiller said:


> a 100ug per 1uL solution (this seems way out but I'm not an expert - reformer points out that its equal to 100mg/mL). Dondante did 50ug per uL.



100ug/ul = 100mg/ml = 100g/l

That is waaay out there. Since a ml weighs but 1 gram, they are proposing 5 and 10% weight per volume solutions which is unreasonable and likely not homogeneous, at least in water or even low-percentage ethanol.

And... There is absolutely no need for it.


----------



## IGNVS

hadja self a goood tiiime didja? yessah had myself a verrrrry good timee :D


think its a bad idea to IV ~500ug of this stuff?

what would be preferred starting dose?


----------



## any major dude

I wouldn't exceed 250µg for a first IV experience, probably less.  Honestly i'm not experienced with IM or IV ROAs, but there have been some pretty rich experiences at around 250µg bucally/sublingually with surfactant.  I would guess this is still much less potent than IV.


----------



## psood0nym

Given the extreme rapidity of onset through IM and liquid insufflated ROAs it may be worth doing IV.  That is, it hits fast enough so increasing the speed of onset may take this drug into qualitative realms distinct from other ROAs -- like the way smoked or IV DMT is a whole new animal compared to insufflated or IM DMT.  

Another serotonergic compound that could produce a "flash" like smoked DMT, but through a novel experiential avenue, would make quite an addition to our psychedelic arsenal. We have DET and MET, too , yes,  but those seem to share many of DMT's attributes while lacking its  distinctive panache. With the NBOMes we might just have a new angle of approach to the vision state. It's worth a shot.

And so, to answer IGNVS: Hell yes! Load the barrel, tie your tourniquet, and be the first human  to kamikaze dive into the NBOMe elf orgy. Godspeed. I look forward to your survey of the wreckage.


----------



## MattPsy

It's likely to be very similar to smoked, which I have plenty of experience with now, and the effects begin while you are still inhaling (or depressing the plunger, in your hypothetical case). Use 250ug as a maximum for the first time. Trust me, it will be plenty strong.

Oh yeah, i've smoked about 1.2mg (yes, 1200ug) of this stuff by accident before, and while the experience was extremely intense (I vomited during the comeup, and couldn't tell which way gravity was, etc), and beautiful, I did not get transported to hyperspace. Very "religious" (although I am very non-religious) and tactile. Massive time distortion. The the main period of intensity persisted for around 4 hours, so it's not like a IV (or smoked) DMT flash.


----------



## Addam

psood0nym said:


> Given the extreme rapidity of onset through IM and liquid insufflated ROAs it may be worth doing IV.  That is, it hits fast enough so increasing the speed of onset may take this drug into qualitative realms distinct from other ROAs -- like the way smoked or IV DMT is a whole new animal compared to insufflated or IM DMT.
> 
> Another serotonergic compound that could produce a "flash" like smoked DMT, but through a novel experiential avenue, would make quite an addition to our psychedelic arsenal. We have DET and MET, too , yes,  but those seem to share many of DMT's attributes while lacking its  distinctive panache. With the NBOMes we might just have a new angle of approach to the vision state. It's worth a shot.
> 
> And so, to answer IGNVS: Hell yes! Load the barrel, tie your tourniquet, and be the first human  to kamikaze dive into the NBOMe elf orgy. Godspeed. I look forward to your survey of the wreckage.



Lol, damn psood, if I hadn't already had two journeys already this weekend I'd be loading some 25I right away to see what that does. Perhaps this coming weekend


----------



## uncomfortablepants

MattPsy said:


> It's likely to be very similar to smoked, which I have plenty of experience with now, and the effects begin while you are still inhaling (or depressing the plunger, in your hypothetical case). Use 250ug as a maximum for the first time. Trust me, it will be plenty strong.
> 
> Oh yeah, i've smoked about 1.2mg (yes, 1200ug) of this stuff by accident before, and while the experience was extremely intense (I vomited during the comeup, and couldn't tell which way gravity was, etc), and beautiful, I did not get transported to hyperspace. Very "religious" (although I am very non-religious) and tactile. Massive time distortion. The the main period of intensity persisted for around 4 hours, so it's not like a IV (or smoked) DMT flash.




How did you smoke it?

and how does it compare in intensity to intranasal?

Also how long did you have residual effects?


----------



## lulzkiller

First of all, thanks a bunch for all the helpful answers!



reformer said:


> A couple of questions- Why do you want to use nearly pure ethanol? Why not simply use distilled water?
> 
> If it's for storage purposes I can understand your goal, but even then I would ditch the ethanol and instead recommend making a water solution (no alcohol) and then dividing it up into several "aliquots" before freezing them until needed. 100-200 ul aliquots in polypropylene tubes are perfect, use larger aliquots if you share with fellow psychonauts.
> 
> These aliquots will be good for 3-4 freeze/thaw cycles if you re-freeze it immediately after drawing your single use out: e.g. you can thaw one and then draw from it, then re-freeze it... and repeat the process at least 2-3 times without losing apparent potency.
> 
> Make absolute sure that you pipette the freshly thawed solution up and down several times to make it homogeneous.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's still a bad idea... That isn't healthy or sustainable.



Freezing isn't an option (flatmate would not approve). That's why I have to store it in non-frozen liquid and I was thinking pure alcohol might do better than 10% or water. But given the health risks I'll probably just dilute some vodka or something to that effect.




reformer said:


> That info has since been updated as the poster uses ~8.5 mg/ml for many NBOMe now and has no problems "solving" HCl salts of the 25C, 25D, or 25E at this concentration. 25E (the least soluble in water) takes a bit of uniform agitation (i.e. vortexing) over a few minutes to go into solution, but reasonable room temperature and no heat is required or should be applied.
> 
> That info does not recommend going higher concentration than 8.5 mg/ml for 25E, but guesses that 25C will be soluble up to 9-10 mg/ml (no guarantees).
> 
> Frankly, it seems that volumes of less than 30 ul don't work well for liquid insufflation. It's suggested to use 20 ul of distilled water to further dilute your "droplet" of 20 ul 25C to a final volume of 40 ul before insufflating the diluted solution. Then you can add larger proportion of 25C and less water in the 40 ul if you want to make the regimen stronger.



My current plan involves a 10mg/1mL solution, giving me squirts of 200ug per 20uL with my pipette. That is a total of 40uL for a full dose. Of course I will have to dilute it further when doing the preliminary safety testing. Do you have any idea of where might be sensible to start? 50ug? 100ug? Less? I'm thinking that not many things are harmful in that range short of powerful poisons (which I'd assume this product is not; well-known vendor, not a new batch). How low would an allergy test be?



reformer said:


> 100ug/ul = 100mg/ml = 100g/l
> 
> That is waaay out there. Since a ml weighs but 1 gram, they are proposing 5 and 10% weight per volume solutions which is unreasonable and likely not homogeneous, at least in water or even low-percentage ethanol.
> 
> And... There is absolutely no need for it.



I know, it seems far-fetched to me too. Just wanted to check up.


----------



## MattPsy

uncomfortablepants said:


> How did you smoke it?
> 
> and how does it compare in intensity to intranasal?
> 
> Also how long did you have residual effects?



Meth pipe. Weighed my dose out with a microgram scale. I don't recommend that you try this method if you don't have the ability to weigh this accurately. Unlike IV, you can't just make up a stock solution volumetrically with a larger amount, unless you then evaporate off the solvent whilst in the pipe (this is not actually a bad method).

Effects can be comparable in strength to intranasal, but at about 1/3 to 1/2 the dose. At equivalent amounts, smoked is far stronger.

Residual effects linger for around 3 hours after primary effects finished, much as with other ROAs.


----------



## Incunabula

MattPsy said:


> Meth pipe. Weighed my dose out with a microgram scale. I don't recommend that you try this method if you don't have the ability to weigh this accurately. Unlike IV, you can't just make up a stock solution volumetrically with a larger amount, unless you then evaporate off the solvent whilst in the pipe (this is not actually a bad method).
> 
> Effects can be comparable in strength to intranasal, but at about 1/3 to 1/2 the dose. At equivalent amounts, smoked is far stronger.
> 
> Residual effects linger for around 3 hours after primary effects finished, much as with other ROAs.


So your saying duration is around 6 hours smoked? like with other ROA.


----------



## uncomfortablepants

MattPsy said:


> Meth pipe. Weighed my dose out with a microgram scale. I don't recommend that you try this method if you don't have the ability to weigh this accurately. Unlike IV, you can't just make up a stock solution volumetrically with a larger amount, unless you then evaporate off the solvent whilst in the pipe (this is not actually a bad method).
> 
> Effects can be comparable in strength to intranasal, but at about 1/3 to 1/2 the dose. At equivalent amounts, smoked is far stronger.
> 
> Residual effects linger for around 3 hours after primary effects finished, much as with other ROAs.



Is it the freebase?




I have a mixture of glycerol and water  50/50ish.  Maybe I'll try adding some onto an herbal blend and smoke it once it evaporates.


----------



## MattPsy

Yes, duration around 6 hours.

I smoked the HCl salt. Freebase decomposes a little when smoked. I gave all this information much earlier in the thread but it was seemingly ignored.

I wouldn't bother putting it on to plant material and smoking that, when I tried that seems most of it was lost to pyrolysis.


----------



## uncomfortablepants

MattPsy said:


> Yes, duration around 6 hours.
> 
> I smoked the HCl salt. Freebase decomposes a little when smoked. I gave all this information much earlier in the thread but it was seemingly ignored.
> 
> I wouldn't bother putting it on to plant material and smoking that, when I tried that seems most of it was lost to pyrolysis.




Thanks for restating. The thread is getting long.

I think I'll just hold off on smoking it. Don't really feel the urge to go through the hassle to get it out of the solution I made right now.


----------



## Cyanoide

I got 5 550µg blotters today. Reading the thread many say the amount on blotters may be unreliable. Some of you probably know which vendor sells 550µg blotters so if you know they're reliable I'd be happy to know. I like to have my stuff in powder form so I can weight it myself, but in this case it's impossible. I don't really like having blotters. Maybe I should start with a half and then see how it works and take the other half it it feels right.


----------



## VandiLLisM

what if i were to drop a some liquid solution in my ear? just wondering hah


----------



## Survived Abortion

Cyanoide said:


> I got 5 550µg blotters today. Reading the thread many say the amount on blotters may be unreliable. Some of you probably know which vendor sells 550µg blotters so if you know they're reliable I'd be happy to know. I like to have my stuff in powder form so I can weight it myself, but in this case it's impossible. I don't really like having blotters. Maybe I should start with a half and then see how it works and take the other half it it feels right.



Although I may in the future make up a few d.i.y. blotters to take out for sublingual dosing, I'm not sure about buying ready laid blotters of this material. I feel comfortable knowing the exact amount I am going to ingest, especially to get a feel of the level of effects from different dosages. I got some of the powder the other day, I've been meaning to make a liquid solution for storage and volumetric measurement. I need to set some time aside to venture into unknown lands with this one.


----------



## SpecialK_

Alright, anyone able to give me a step by step guide with what to do with my freebase to get it dissolved in liquid form for insufflation.


----------



## skillet

Read the last couple of pages, eg:



uncomfortablepants said:


> Whatever you do don't rail lines of it
> 
> the freebase won't dissolve in water.
> This is what I found easy.
> 
> add distilled vinegar to 25C until it dissolves completely. I found 50mg to very easily dissolve in 3ml of distilled vinegar.
> 
> (Distilled water may be slightly basic too, so it may help to use more distilled vinegar than neccesary)
> 
> then dissolve that solution in distilled water.
> 
> making a final solution of 1mg/ml works well and can be dispensed with a 1ml oral syringe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS IMO it is not all that spectacular to risk using if anyone has any uncertainty about how to safely dose it.



Ask if there's anything specific you want to know.


----------



## Cambo

Anyone tried this while drinking? Doubt there would b much interaction but, cant be too cautious.
I'm planning to get some, but knowing drunk me, that's when I'd probably take it lol.


----------



## Solipsis

I wouldn't know of a direct contraindication that would suggest a dangerous interaction but considering we don't know the ins and outs of these compounds yet definitely be careful. Might I suggest that if you are used to heavy drinking where there is just one drink after another without paying attention how many you've had already... instead drink with moderation when combining with 25C. Think of a limit before you start, so that you can consider feeling 'drunk' enough, and not have to go for 'wasted'.

For safety reasons also don't start drinking until after the 25C-NBOMe has started working otherwise you have much less control over what's going on. Preferably I wouldn't drink at all on this but it doesn't sound like you want to take that advice.


----------



## Cambo

Solipsis said:


> I wouldn't know of a direct contraindication that would suggest a dangerous interaction but considering we don't know the ins and outs of these compounds yet definitely be careful. Might I suggest that if you are used to heavy drinking where there is just one drink after another without paying attention how many you've had already... instead drink with moderation when combining with 25C. Think of a limit before you start, so that you can consider feeling 'drunk' enough, and not have to go for 'wasted'.
> 
> For safety reasons also don't start drinking until after the 25C-NBOMe has started working otherwise you have much less control over what's going on. Preferably I wouldn't drink at all on this but it doesn't sound like you want to take that advice.



After taking ketamine when I was drunk before I knew how badly they mix I really do want to hear that advice, I would much prefer hearing that they have no reaction because everything seems like a good idea at the time when Im drunk, especially since Ive never tried any true psychadelics before, even though Im so ridiculously curious to trip I still have some fear (obviously) (for the record i have been trying to get LSD for ages, closest I got was blank blotter sold as acid) so its came to the point where I have to buy a semi-legal drug... so especially with an RC I want to be super careful.
Im planing to get 350ug blotter so I couldnt even control my dose the way I could if I was using HCl, I dont trust practicing making a solution with such a potent drug...


----------



## greenmeanies

most psychedelics (LSD, 2C-x) are relatively safe when combined with ONE BEER. Attempt to put a +++ dose of psyches on top of a well-established "drunk" (6-8 drinks) will most definitely put you into a world of hurt. I would advise strongly against "dude, i'm so drunk, let's break out the stash and see how much we can eat!"


----------



## hoffa

Would it be a good idea to put a blotter with 550mcg in a small amount of distilled water? 
Since I only felt a bodyload when taking one under my tongue..
Would be great with some instructions for the best extraction method from a blotter.
I'd really appreciate it, thanks.


----------



## .tOobi.

i made 10ml of a 1mg / 1ml solution (50/50 water/glycerol) with 25C-NBOMe 

i dosed my friend and myself with a 1ml insulin syringe, nasal
0,350ml = 350 µg

we layed down and let the solution sit in the nose for 10 mins. (maybe to short?)

when the comup began after 20 mins. ive puked my guts out 2 times

no visuals to speak of the whole "trip"..

it was empathic..had good conversation with my buddy outside in nature 
the body feeling was wonderfull....very sensual...light teeth grinding

i dont know when ive began to comedown...it was very gradual

now its t:+ 11h and im still glowing..wonderfull afterglow with weed 

next time i will plug the same dose


----------



## Solipsis

hoffa said:


> Would it be a good idea to put a blotter with 550mcg in a small amount of distilled water?
> Since I only felt a bodyload when taking one under my tongue..
> Would be great with some instructions for the best extraction method from a blotter.
> I'd really appreciate it, thanks.



What would you do with the water? Using a liquid sublingually is tricky because it is easily swallowed by accident whereas a blotter slowly effuses a compound towards parts of the mouth rich in blood vessels.
But people seem to have been effective snorting small amounts of liquid like 0.3 ml so you could do that.

Personally I have blotters of a number of NBOMe compounds and I think it will be a good idea to soak my dose of blotters in isopropanol, a solvent that evaporates more nicely than water. Then I will use that liquid to add to mannose and let it dry after which the mannose can be snorted. It then serves as a carrier. I have mentioned this way too often in this thread already lol. Now it's time to actually experiment with it. I hope to have an opportunity soon to start with a quite lowish dose of 25C.

Using distilled water (could be tap water, 25C is as potent as LSD but there are no indications that it is as fragile to a little chlorine) to extract your blotter and snorting that is recommended for you I guess. But maybe its not a bad idea to take the used blotter sublingually as well, just to be sure you get everything.


----------



## hoffa

Solipsis said:


> Using distilled water (could be tap water, 25C is as potent as LSD but there are no indications that it is as fragile to a little chlorine) to extract your blotter and snorting that is recommended for you I guess. But maybe its not a bad idea to take the used blotter sublingually as well, just to be sure you get everything.



Exactly what I were thinking about.
Do you, or anyone else, know about the tolerance?
Since I took a blotter with 550mcg two days ago, but didn't feel anything else then a light bodyload.
Do you think I should wait atleast a week or two before trying again?


----------



## hoffa

Sorry for spamming, but would it work to actually smoke a blotter? Haha.
Cut it into small pieces and smoke it in a bong.
The taste would probably be awful, but would it work?


----------



## skillet

Does anyone know if the blotters are made with the HCl salt? Are they bitter?

I expect it's difficult to extract them and keep the volume of solution small enough to insufflate. Like solipsis said, it's probably best to extract with a largeish volume of alcohol, evaporate, and redissolve up to the required volume with water or whatever you want to use.

I dunno about smoking them, ideally you'd want to vapourise it. I'm not sure how much would decompose by actually burning the blotter.


----------



## hoffa

skillet said:


> Does anyone know if the blotters are made with the HCl salt? Are they bitter?
> 
> I expect it's difficult to extract them and keep the volume of solution small enough to insufflate. Like solipsis said, it's probably best to extract with a largeish volume of alcohol, evaporate, and redissolve up to the required volume with water or whatever you want to use.
> 
> I dunno about smoking them, ideally you'd want to vapourise it. I'm not sure how much would decompose by actually burning the blotter.



Yeah, didn't think of smoking it in a vapouriser.
I might give it a shot someday.

EDIT: My blotters has a bitter chemical taste FYI, it was kind of hard to loose it.
I had the same taste when I were smoking cigarettes and drinking water for like 30-45 min after I took the blotter.


----------



## skillet

Sounds like the salt then, the pure chemical tastes similar to 2C's but feels much more 'greasy' and sticks to your mouth.


----------



## .tOobi.

i forgot to say:

my vanilla, crystal powder chunks of 25C-NBOMe hcl, are very static charged.
it came in 3 ziplocs of different sizes.

i had to try and try befor i managed to get something out of the baggy.
the powder would "fly" away from the spatula to the sides of the ziploc..
and a little bit of it in the air 

very dangerous with such a potent compound.
i had my skiing glasses on + a surging mask and gloves.
after the weighing process i cleanend the whole place and changed the air in the room befor i let someone in.

did anyone know how i can discharge it?

with a magnet perhaps?


----------



## uncomfortablepants

.tOobi. said:


> i made 10ml of a 1mg / 1ml solution (50/50 water/glycerol) with 25C-NBOMe
> 
> i dosed my friend and myself with a 1ml insulin syringe, nasal
> 0,350ml = 350 µg
> 
> we layed down and let the solution sit in the nose for 10 mins. (maybe to short?)
> 
> when the comup began after 20 mins. ive puked my guts out 2 times
> 
> no visuals to speak of the whole "trip"..
> 
> it was empathic..had good conversation with my buddy outside in nature
> the body feeling was wonderfull....very sensual...light teeth grinding
> 
> i dont know when ive began to comedown...it was very gradual
> 
> now its t:+ 11h and im still glowing..wonderfull afterglow with weed
> 
> next time i will plug the same dose




Ten minutes in the nose seems like a long time to me. For me the liquid spread into my nasal cavity and then I had to swallow mucous after a few minutes.


I tried .33mg with MXE and was just touching on open eye visuals and pretty good CEVs. I guess the MXE helps intensify it a bit.


----------



## .tOobi.

uncomfortablepants said:


> Ten minutes in the nose seems like a long time to me. For me the liquid spread into my nasal cavity and then I had to swallow mucous after a few minutes.



ok, thanks.
then this was not the problem...hmm i think we just need a bit more 

we tryed to held our head in an ankle wich nothing would sip down the throat. 
and we pressed the nose sides togehter  with our fingers a few times to spread the fluid.

ive made the solution blueish, with a drop of food color.
after +/- 10mins. we both blowed our clogged nose and blue color slime came out
the nose was clogged the whole duration of the experience


----------



## greenmeanies

perhaps the problem was the glycerol-- causing the flow of water to be FROM your blood TO your hairy nose cavity, instead of the other way around. you want the flow of water to be FROM the drug solution INTO your nose! so keep it to plain distilled water next time without the glycerol and you'll probably be fine.


----------



## Humboldt

Since this is my first post on bluelight I'd first like to say how much I love this community and how happy I am to be a part of it now after reading for so long!

I made some very interesting trials with 25C HCl-salt in a 1.5mg/ml solution with < 1% Polysorbat (Tween) 80 and destilled water as mentioned by others earlier in this thread. The solution was administered via nasal spray. 
With this method every ingestion was successful. Threshold dose was below 100µg. 
400µg peaked after 1,5h and gave a mild ++ (Shulgin scale) with some remarkable visuals at the 3h point.
550µg gave a quite profound experience (low +++) showing a rapid come-up within 30 minutes and lasting around 6 - 7 hours.
All trails were attended with slight energy tremor and followed by a general uplift in mood that lasted a few days after the trip. Noticeable but little production of mucus during the come-up. Very friendly on the mind. In comparison with LSD I think there should be lesser problems with anxiety on 25C. No hangover to speak of. Sleep was not needed but could be achieved easily after the come-down.

Even if most of this information is given before in the thread I hope it will help at least the lazy ones that don't want to read through it all 

Finally, is there any serious information about cross-tolerance issues for example with LSD? I read Erny speculating about this but are there any further experiences? And can anyone tell me the use of glycerol some are using?

I hope you were able to follow my words as english is not my mother tongue.


----------



## .tOobi.

thank you greenmeanies

next time without glycerol
i wish i had researched it more before i made the solution 
i put it in to make the fluid more viscous.. i tought it would prevent from dripping

maybe it works with a bit higher dosage and/or plugged...we will see


----------



## anima

Tried to look through the thread but didn't find exactly what i was looking for because it's that huge already ... kk, am also a dosser  

Is there some kind of a tutorial or an instructional post regarding 25c/d-nbome hcl bringing into solution? A link or the like would help a lot 

Or is it that easy so that i can put let's say 20mg of the compound in 10 or 15ml of 40% booze to get a solution?

If this will work ... is there anything speaking against mixing 0.3ml (in case of a 20mg/15ml solution) with additional - let's say - 1.2ml of water for a rectal administration of ~400µg 25c/d-nbome?


----------



## skillet

Yeah it's that easy, except some people seem to have the freebase (I can't imagine why some of them are sold like this) which will not dissolve in water/dilute alcohol. So if it doesn't dissolve you need to acidify the solution (acetic acid, distilled vinegar apparently works.)

You can plug 0.3 mL, there's no need to dilute it further. Except maybe to avoid burning from the alcohol, I've only ever plugged plain water solutions so I can't comment on that. And I think 20% alcohol is more than enough to prevent bacterial growth, so you can dilute the booze by half before using it.


----------



## anima

Thanks a lot 

... yeah, only thought of dilute the 0.3ml of 40% booze because of invasive and unpleasant effects in the rectum.

Reducing the aclohol concentration of the solution to 20% is a good advice and soothes this _problem_ anyway ... thanks again


----------



## skillet

Yeah, makes sense. Oh and quadruple check your math if you make something other than a 1mg/mL solution! Sounds like I don't need to tell you, but...


----------



## Incunabula

skillet said:


> ............. some people seem to have the freebase (I can't imagine why some of them are sold like this)


I´ve seen two vendors, who were only selling the freebase, stating that it´s only for smoking.

maybe this isn´t true at all. Can the HCL be smoked just as well?


----------



## skillet

According to MattPsy, the HCl salt shows less signs of decomposition (discoloration, IIRC) on vaporisation than the freebase.


----------



## anima

Doubtful that i mess the ratio of the solution up even if i never did shine in maths 
But it's sure better saing it twice (or quadruple times  ) than forgetting to mention it once (hope my street-skilled english doesn't let the native speakers ears bleed ^^)


----------



## rizla1

could someoneme more info on 25-c degrading to 2c-i and the likes...i had a problem recently with a family member calling parameds who brought the police with them...(they thought i was oding on it  but was just in the mid end off a +++ maybe ++++ 25-c trip) long story short they got my dropper bottle with about 8mg 25-c nbome..! i had to tell them what it was  , it has been sent for testing.. they are doing me for class a possesion.. but said i will prob not here back from them.


----------



## skillet

It won't degrade to 2C-C (not 2C-I!) but it's likely to contain some 2C-C as unreacted starting material from the synthesis. According to wiki, all 2C's are class A in the UK, but, assuming a 5% impurity, your 8mg of 25C will only contain 400ug of 2C-C. I'm not sure where you would stand legally from possession of such a small amount. 

What did they mean, you probably won't hear back from them? Hopefully you don't get charged.


----------



## Incunabula

skillet said:


> According to MattPsy, the HCl salt shows less signs of decomposition (discoloration, IIRC) on vaporisation than the freebase.


I take this to mean that the HCL is actually better for vaporisation, than the freebase.

if the HCL also has better solubility in liquids, and probably also better stability over time, then yeah, then there´s no reason to sell (or for us to buy) the freebase.

Right?


----------



## skillet

It sounds better yeah. Assuming they're the same purity, no, I can't see any reason why the HCl salt wouldn't be preferred. 

I mean it's possible they have to purify the product in order for the freebase to crystallise, while the HCl salt can probably be crystallised straight from the crude product. In other words, there may be differences in purity between the two forms, and I guess the freebase _might_ be more pure, though that's just speculation.


----------



## reformer

rizla1 said:
			
		

> i had a problem recently with a family member calling parameds who brought the police with them...(they thought i was oding on it  but was just in the mid end off a +++ maybe ++++ 25-c trip) long story short they got my dropper bottle with about 8mg 25-c nbome..! i had to tell them what it was  , it has been sent for testing.. they are doing me for class a possesion.. but said i will prob not here back from them.



First off, you need info on Proper Setting much more so than you do info on degradation. 

Clearly you are one of the assholes who are causing the NBOMe to be of concern to law enforcement and politicians. Don't Fucking trip around family you little naive child.

Thanks for  being a dick and ruining these brand new research tools for everyone on the planet. Please flush your RCs now and go sober, your definitely too stupid to work with material of this nature.

Also, you are a coward and a rat fink. You did NOT have to tell them what it is... you got scared, little kid, and you opened your month and ratted out.


----------



## uncomfortablepants

greenmeanies said:


> perhaps the problem was the glycerol-- causing the flow of water to be FROM your blood TO your hairy nose cavity, instead of the other way around. you want the flow of water to be FROM the drug solution INTO your nose! so keep it to plain distilled water next time without the glycerol and you'll probably be fine.



Glycerol has been shown to help with transdermal absorption.
If you google glycerol transdermal or glycerol absorption lots of info will come up.
but I would not be surprised if it possible to reduce absorption by getting rid of the mucous rather than letting it just sit in the nose/throat.
and in retrospect a 50/50 water glycerol solution may be too high considering how much mucous it made me produce. But I dunno really, hard to judge from just myself and one other report.


----------



## bartlebooth

reformer said:


> First off, you need info on Proper Setting much more so than you do info on degradation.
> 
> Clearly you are one of the assholes who are causing the NBOMe to be of concern to law enforcement and politicians. Don't Fucking trip around family you little naive child.
> 
> Thanks for  being a dick and ruining these brand new research tools for everyone on the planet. Please flush your RCs now and go sober, your definitely too stupid to work with material of this nature.
> 
> Also, you are a coward and a rat fink. You did NOT have to tell them what it is... you got scared, little kid, and you opened your month and ratted out.



That's telling them, reformer.  With an attitude and approach like this, RCs are sure to prosper.

... I'm not suggesting that their behavior wasn't irresponsible and potentially detrimental to the RC scene, but virtually kicking a stranger in the teeth is an absurd means of helping out.


----------



## rizla1

reformer said:


> First off, you need info on Proper Setting much more so than you do info on degradation.
> 
> Clearly you are one of the assholes who are causing the NBOMe to be of concern to law enforcement and politicians. Don't Fucking trip around family you little naive child.
> 
> Thanks for  being a dick and ruining these brand new research tools for everyone on the planet. Please flush your RCs now and go sober, your definitely too stupid to work with material of this nature.
> 
> Also, you are a coward and a rat fink. You did NOT have to tell them what it is... you got scared, little kid, and you opened your month and ratted out.[/QUOTE=reformer;9744750]
> 
> excuse me you stain to society , it is the people like you that ruin these forums.. with posts like these, i have a rite to take and do as i like, the same as the family member that rang them had there own reason's as did the paramedics for asking for police assistance..for all they new i could of been some stark mad crack head , i wasnt aggressive at the time, did fuck all wrong on anyone  and was of harm to no one..!  i am an adult and told them not because i was scared...
> but because i am not goin to have them file up class a poss. charge  on me , they will test it and will find out what it is! 8)  so you can scutle back to your little hole...and leave room for some friendly intelligent advice..!
> 
> @ skillet they said that they will contact me in otctober but nothing will probly happen after that.! so hopefully all will be good.
> 
> also by the time this will be of any meaning the rc scene in uk will be over as we now it anyway.. was there not talks of new catch all bans on rc's?


----------



## reformer

*Thanks for speeding up the NBOMe ban*



bartlebooth said:


> That's telling them, reformer.  With an attitude and approach like this, RCs are sure to prosper.
> 
> ... I'm not suggesting that their behavior wasn't irresponsible and potentially detrimental to the RC scene, but virtually kicking a stranger in the teeth is an absurd means of helping out.



I'm not trying to help him out. He doesn't deserve it.

And everyone knows that RCs will die on the vine when idiot kids like rizla1 cause them to come under the brutal glare of law enforcement's attention.

On the other hand, my posting the harsh truth about his stupidity on some forum isn't going to cause ANY RC to be banned. But his actions most certainly WILL contribute to their demise.



rizla1 said:


> i am an adult



Your inability to write with any semblance of maturity, capitalization, punctuation, line-breaks or complete sentences says otherwise, kid.



rizla1 said:


> it is the people like you that ruin these forums..



I'd rather be accused of telling the harsh, unfriendly truth on these forums than of being one of the absolute idiots who got the paramedics and cops called on himself, and then ratted out the NBOMe to try and save his own skin. 



rizla1 said:


> leave room for some friendly intelligent advice..!



You do not deserve any. Period. You probably squealed on your source also.



rizla1 said:


> was there not talks of new catch all bans on rc's?



Again you show your ignorance. It's impossible to do a catch "ALL" ban. The NBOMe were not in the ban, but thanks to you and your type, they likely will be in the next ban. You're helping turn the precious NBOMe into the next banned substance through your actions even though they've been commercially available for less than a year. You clearly should not have any future access to these materials, and never should have access in the first place.


----------



## Tryptamine*Dreamer

I really liked 2C-C. Don't know how similar this is, but plan on finding out in the next couple of months.

I'll be dissolving it in vodka to measure since it is so potent. I have a balance that is capable of measuring amounts that small but it would be too easy to fuck up the measurement and overdose or underdose.

I'll either put my dose on something that can be smoked when dry or put it on a small amount of some other substance that can be snorted so that their will be enough powder to snort when dry. Whatever I put it on is going to be inactive, at least in the amount I'll be smoking or snorting.

I'd also like to see the 2C-E analog become available as that and 2C-P are the two most intense of the 2C series, at least that I have tried.


----------



## atara

rizla1 said:


> could someoneme more info on 25-c degrading to 2c-i and the likes...i had a problem recently with a family member calling parameds who brought the police with them...


It wouldn't matter if it did degrade to anything; it's far more potent than any possible degradation product. I don't know if N-debenzylation is a viable degradation pathway. If you need legal advice, talk to a real lawyer.



> (they thought i was oding on it  but was just in the mid end off a +++ maybe ++++ 25-c trip) long story short they got my dropper bottle with about 8mg 25-c nbome..!


A ++++ is an experience you _learned_ something important from, and it sounds like all you did here was act vastly irresponsible. Don't trip around people whom you can't trust; if that includes family then it's a shitty world we live in.

As soon as your mom called the cops you should probably have poured it down the drain.



> i had to tell them what it was  , it has been sent for testing.. they are doing me for class a possesion.. but said i will prob not here back from them.


You didn't have to tell them what it was; you can refuse to identify the substance, knowing that it is not illegal. Surely you realize that by drawing attention to the market you damage other people's ability to enjoy these drugs, y'know, people who do it -responsibly-.

You absolutely do need to tell the doctor, but in most civilized countries they're required to keep that sort of thing confidential.



> , i have a rite to take and do as i like,



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiBt-pqp0E#t=4m20s

If you're trying to be an adult, you need to realize that sometimes you ought to take responsibility for your own actions, and not run off. Regardless of what you may be physically, you acted selfish and immature. Doing the right thing doesn't mean doing whatever you can get away with.

Also, both of you: *no more flaming.* We don't do that shit here. Capisce?


----------



## rizla1

atara said:


> It wouldn't matter if it did degrade to anything; it's far more potent than any possible degradation product. I don't know if N-debenzylation is a viable degradation pathway. If you need legal advice, talk to a real lawyer.
> 
> 
> A ++++ is an experience you _learned_ something important from, and it sounds like all you did here was act vastly irresponsible. Don't trip around people whom you can't trust; if that includes family then it's a shitty world we live in.
> 
> As soon as your mom called the cops you should probably have poured it down the drain.
> 
> 
> You didn't have to tell them what it was; you can refuse to identify the substance, knowing that it is not illegal. Surely you realize that by drawing attention to the market you damage other people's ability to enjoy these drugs, y'know, people who do it -responsibly-.
> 
> You absolutely do need to tell the doctor, but in most civilized countries they're required to keep that sort of thing confidential.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiBt-pqp0E#t=4m20s
> 
> If you're trying to be an adult, you need to realize that sometimes you ought to take responsibility for your own actions, and not run off. Regardless of what you may be physically, you acted selfish and immature. Doing the right thing doesn't mean doing whatever you can get away with.
> 
> Also, both of you: *no more flaming.* We don't do that shit here. Capisce?



ok wat ever..! he is an ass hole i actually hope it gets banned just for your sake..!  i would never rat out someone, and yes i am an adult were i live it is impossible to move out off home, unless you are a bum waster on the dole! 
i stand by what i did , it probably was selfish to take drugs in a house that was not my own and i no that. what are you acomplissing by telling me what i already no? 
any way back on point , yeah i supose there is little risk of prosecution for first offense.  thanks for the advice


----------



## Incunabula

Wow, nice post Atara, keep wielding that stick


----------



## MattPsy

Yep, it's idiots like the above that will hasten the demise of these and other related substances. This was always going to happen when it became "mainstream".

You hope it gets banned, huh, because you can't handle the criticism and the fact you actually did something stupid but won't take responsibility for it? Well, that's real fucking selfless of you, thanks.


----------



## any major dude

i'm hoping the lack of activity via oral ROA & microgram doses will keep this one away from most of the more irresponsible types.  And it will certainly impede it getting passed off as LSD or what have you.


----------



## atara

any major dude said:


> i'm hoping the lack of activity via oral ROA & microgram doses will keep this one away from most of the more irresponsible types.  And it will certainly impede it getting passed off as LSD or what have you.



It's the luckiest chemical coincidence I've ever seen.

"How do you take this stuff?"

"Drops in the nose."

"No thanks."


----------



## bartlebooth

^^ Now just hope that people don't start vending it in novel ways that take the hassle of preparation out of the user's hands.  I've read some posts on other forums that are seriously worrying.


----------



## IamMe90

25i is even better suited to remain out of the mainstream, methinks, since it's apparently not active sublingually? (I never really got why but I don't know chemistry at all.) These really are great facets of these RCs - they may actually remain "research chemicals" (in a loose sense, of course) instead of being sold to kids on the street.


----------



## SpecialK_

Is this the best effects wise in comparison to the other NBOME chemicals? I'm not too big into my 2c as I would rather just have some acid so I can avoid the side effects, so I would only really be interested in trying the top of the family.


----------



## B9

That seems to be a matter of opinion - I'm going to try 25D as it is thought by some people to have greater emotional depth than 25C does or at least what I found it to have.
   25I & D are reputed to be closer to an LSD type experience but I don't really buy that as LSD is LSD, I guess people really mean that you get decent visuals + emotional depth.
   25I is highly priced atm thus 25D is an obvious peasants selection


----------



## herbata_yanga

@B9

Compared to 2 mg 25D, 1 mg of 25C is just a toy ; )


----------



## B9

^Hopefully yes


----------



## dc710

does anyone think mixing this with 6-APB/5-APB would be a good idea or not? I can't see why not really, a 'candyflip' of sorts. Or maybe there's someone who has already tried this combination?


----------



## SpecialK_

I don't experiment with psychedelic RCs too often as I tend to just prefer acid/mushrooms also. Might opt for 25D instead then, are they all the same with regards to ROA?


----------



## B9

You can't eat the stuff if that's what you're getting at. 25D works sublingually  - at least I expect it does as it's getting knocked out in blotter form.
   I think I'll try the sublingual route as opposed to dropping it up my nose, presumably there will be a slower onset which would be preferable if the effects are anything like I hope them to be.


----------



## SpecialK_

I'm not sure how I plan to dose yet. Although I plan to get my doses down to as small amount of liquid as possible to make for easier dosing. Anyone able to report on nasal liquid dosing and how they went about it in comparison to sublinguial? I'm not sure how it would stay there without just going oral and inactive unless you got it concentrated to small amounts.


----------



## herbata_yanga

@B9

no, don't. You'll waste your material which is unnecessary since you can just use buccal method -> put blotter on your upper gum (between your lip and cheek to be precise), hold it there for 20 minutes wtihout swallowing your spit.

@SpecialK
Dont't know about sublingual since it is WRONG way to use NBOMes.
From what I've read and heard there is 1.5 multiplier when you want to calculate dose of buccal method (for it to correspond intranasal, that is)


----------



## any major dude

i've been very leery of combining this, or any of the NBOMe's, with anything aside from alcohol and cannabis since it is extremely new in the human experience and there's really nothing known about contraindications.  Toward the end of a mostly botched buccal dosing attempt i took some MXE, and that felt more or less like it would normally.  What, if anything, have you guys used with 25C-NBOMe?


----------



## B9

^Nothing -  I take your view that it's better to be safe than sorry - they say fortune favours the brave - which is true but sometimes you get misfortune instead.


----------



## any major dude

indeed & fair enough.  I'm thinking other 5-HT2a agonists would likely be pointless, empathogens/entactogens could have potential, but i'd be _very _worried about some cardiac issues there.  Dissociatives may have potential as well, and i'd be a little less worried about contraindications there for various reasons, but i'm still too wary of it to proceed with any self-experimentation at this point.


----------



## herbata_yanga

I've heard of example of mixing 2C-I with 25C, apparently mix was great


----------



## Ekstasis-//7

Hi,
Just thought I'd comment on experiences using 2 different routes of administration (ROAs), vaporising Vs. sub-lingual as I've found them really quite different in the overall effect, pleasantness and unwanted side effects. First let me say my measurements. I measured 5mg 2C-C-NBOMe HCl into 2.5mL of vodka (standard 37% alcohol stuff).

Now it was a little while ago but my memory should be correct... first dosage I used 0.1ml of solution which should be 200µg ± 100µg (approx to factor in accuracy of measurements). I heated the liquid in a glass pipe and inhaled. Maybe it wasn't a good idea to inhale a good deal of the ethanol as it evaporated as it may have been some of the reason for the tightness of breath/asthma. Once the solution dies it vaporised quickly (keep in mind if you use a similar method as it's easy to miss the chemical vapour while waiting for the liquid to boil off).

I was reminded of how well suited the cracky (glass vaporising pipe) is to vaporising wizz & shard (methamphetamine) but not psychedelics as the sudden onset makes the anxiety of most psychedelics I've every vaporised much more pronounced and generally leads the way to a bad experience. The rapid onset of vaping the 2C-C-NBOMe leaves me really quite anxious and uneasy. I feel a number of annoying unpleasant side effects. A real tightness of breath close to a mild panic attack and a mild asthma attack that leaves me puffing on a asthma inhaler without too much benefit. (Again was this from inhaling the ethanol vapour?) As the trip goes on I'm really, fairly anxious, wheezing and experiencing sensitivity or pain in my muscles and teeth (I have no tooth problems). I get the hint of the visuals but nothing emerges except some faint light splitting into mild colours. I feel unpleasant, shivering, sensitivity to lights and some queasiness (although not nausea). I wanted to abort at T+40mins with some benzos as I was just really having enough of the panicky feeling but strangely enough my mind realised therapeutic potential and wrote down important insights till T+1:40 when 10mg diazapam was finally taken. T+2:05 appetite comes back and feel more relaxed. I'll end the experience here for that session.

About 1 week later I decided to try again 2C-C-NBOMe. Since smoking had been far too anxiety provoking and nothing like the fairly relaxed/sedating and visual eye candy of 2C-C I tried a different ROA. I tried this time 600µg ± 240µg (approx to factor in accuracy of measurements). I tried a sub-lingual ROA by squirting the 0.3mL under my tongue and holding for ages. This really sucked as the alcohol was too strong and burned my tongue and mouth I also had a mouth full of liquid as trying the sub-lingual dose a few mL of alcohol solution only leads to more saliva in the mouth. The effects came on without any wheezing/asthma/tightness of chest this time. I came on with much less anxiety although it was still present. Effects seemed a little stronger. Maybe just a little less towards the visual side of things but still nothing like any decent 2C-x. No real visuals. This is no 2C-C (which I've come to admire again over the years). There is none the the relaxed chilled/sedated come up. There is no amazing 3D eye candy visuals or the same great usable short 4-6hr trip. This NBOMe version seems to lack visuals, gain much more anxiety/speediness and be harder to face the real therapeutic/psychedelic potential as a result. This it only from 2 trials and it easily could be that my 2nd trial was fairly week because of the week before trial. Overall I like 2C-C for it's just plain ease of use compared with most psychedelics. It's easy to trip balls and have a full on eye candy experience while still keeping it all together and being able to feel fairly relaxed and handle most things. I like quite a number of 2C-x substances but 2C-C-NBOME seems much more anxiety provoking, less fun, less visuals and a fairly longish duriation considering how weak the visuals/mental aspects are (approx 8-10hrs).

I'm wanting to try oral or sub-lingual again just to test if this is is stronger/ more visual and psychedelic after a good break. Can anyone tell me from their experience if oral (swallowing) will work as opposed to sub-lingual? I really don't want to burn my mouth again trying sub-lingual dosages with 37% ethanol. If someone's tried oral (from their own powder not some unknown strength blotters) and it does nothing then maybe I'll have to sqirt a dose of liquid onto a tiny square of paper and hope It'll evaporate into a tab for better sub-lingual dosage?!?

This is only my 2nd trial but so far I don't see what all the hype is about. This could well be another one of the anxiety provoking tryptamine horde of RC's rather than a 2C-x type substance. Just for the record 2C-E, 2C-C, and 2C-I are some of my favourite  psychedelics out of a fairly decent range of RC's and standard psychedelics.


----------



## skillet

Try plugging it? It's really easy and sounds easier than sublingual or intranasal. Though many report good results by insufflating, I can imagine a lot of problems with it. You need a concentrated solution to avoid drip, which you have but it contains 37% alcohol. By plugging you can dilute it to say 2mL with water, probably more, so it won't burn. And, as long as your bowel is clean you know it's all going to be absorbed.


----------



## Ekstasis-//7

I'm a fan of oral admin of 2C-x substances as I find the comeup easier to handle and the overall trip once stabalised can be almost relaxing or very chilled, deep or fun. Seeing how this seems to be anxiety provoking at sub visual doses sublingually and really quite anxiety provoking vaporised then yeah insufflated doesn't appeal to me. I want oral/sublingual to alleviate as much anxiety as possible and lead to me smoothest comeup.

As for the plugging ROA. Thanks for the advice and candidness but without any judgement or intended offence I can say that sorry this really isn't an option. My arse is a one way street. If sucking on a cracky, inhaling potent psychedelic, weird tasting chemical compounds isn't a dirty/sketchy enough comeup in itself then I can't imagine it wouldn't spoil the sacred/magical set/setting in my mind coming up on a psychedellic, feeling like I violated myself plugging it up my bum.   Call me old fashioned but for me there is in some way a magical connection not only to the empathy of being kind to and respecting other people (and nature) on a psychedelic trip but also to my body and spirit. If I feel like I'm dong the opposite on the comeup or intentions entering the trip then the trip seems often pointless or hollowly hedonistic to me.


----------



## skillet

Sticking a small syringe in your ass isn't disrespecting/violating your body, it'll barely even notice it! Fair enough if you don't want to do it, but it is the easiest way IMO. If you take a few minutes to really think about it, I think you'll find there's actually no reason not to try it.


----------



## atara

any major dude said:


> i've been very leery of combining this, or any of the NBOMe's, with anything aside from alcohol and cannabis since it is extremely new in the human experience and there's really nothing known about contraindications.  Toward the end of a mostly botched buccal dosing attempt i took some MXE, and that felt more or less like it would normally.  What, if anything, have you guys used with 25C-NBOMe?



I combined it with MXE once -- 200 ug 25C, 30 mg MXE -- had a sort of crazy spiritual-type, highly visual experience which, while awesome, turned out to be mostly impossible to remember (???), but it did break a long depressive spell.

It was a much stronger trip that I had expected (but fun!) given the dose levels and my previous experiences with both compounds. I doubt I'll be trying it again, due to the whole memory thing.

I have also found it goes really nicely with nicotine in the form of an electronic cigarette.


----------



## dc710

Ok so I tried combining this with 5-APB and it was pretty amazing. One and a half blotters (525 ug) of the 25C were taken sublingually and 100mg of 5-APB were taken at pretty much the same time.

The come up was intense! Felt quite nauseous and did struggle a little to keep stomach contents down. This was probably more down to the 5-APB though. After about an hour or so it all really kicked in, definitely tripping quite a lot. Visuals were great, morphing, colours changing etc. Could just sit and stare at things and the depth of everything was stunning. It felt akin to a single dose acid trip with additional waves of euphoria and buzzing sensations. Very nice. 

I mixed in a fair bit of nitrous as well later which was absolutely tremendous!


----------



## atara

Oh! I also combined it with mushrooms and nitrous once. 350 ug / 2g shrooms and two balloons, was fun but not a great experience 'cuz I was missing this girl...


----------



## rtg

If you wanna go on psy-party i recommend 25c-nbome mixed with 2c-i. I tried 750ug 25c-nbome with 25mg 2c-i and this is one of my favourites combo%)


----------



## any major dude

atara said:


> Oh! I also combined it with mushrooms and nitrous once. 350 ug / 2g shrooms and two balloons, was fun but not a great experience 'cuz I was missing this girl...





rtg said:


> If you wanna go on psy-party i recommend 25c-nbome mixed with 2c-i. I tried 750ug 25c-nbome with 25mg 2c-i and this is one of my favourites combo%)



could you tell much of a difference from that amount of 25C alone?  i'd assume the high affinity at 5HT2a would negate most of the effects of other serotonergic psychedelics.




dc710 said:


> Ok so I tried combining this with 5-APB and it was pretty amazing. One and a half blotters (525 ug) of the 25C were taken sublingually and 100mg of 5-APB were taken at pretty much the same time.
> 
> The come up was intense! Felt quite nauseous and did struggle a little to keep stomach contents down. This was probably more down to the 5-APB though. After about an hour or so it all really kicked in, definitely tripping quite a lot. Visuals were great, morphing, colours changing etc. Could just sit and stare at things and the depth of everything was stunning. It felt akin to a single dose acid trip with additional waves of euphoria and buzzing sensations. Very nice.
> 
> I mixed in a fair bit of nitrous as well later which was absolutely tremendous!



Did your heartbeat ever get noticeably high?  Did you have any headaches or other untoward physical symptoms?


----------



## dimetaltrypafiend

Finally got to dose this last weekend via insuffilation or placement I guess of it in a half h20 half ethanol solution into the nasal cavity.

The high I found was very much like acid in feel however it was almost as if unless you were focusing on the high you did not realize how high you were, very lucid but at the same time many color enhancement or visual enhancements. Not to many of the standard acid visuals but def some morphing of larger areas of objects such as the grass in a park and clouds. Will have to up the dose and see where it goes.


----------



## rtg

any major dude said:


> could you tell much of a difference from that amount of 25C alone?  i'd assume the high affinity at 5HT2a would negate most of the effects of other serotonergic psychedelics


25c-nbome alone is light psychedelic, light visual, much euphoric compound. 
Mixed with 2c-i is also light psychedelic, but great for parties. Strong dose of stimulation, beautifull visuals (in dose 750ug 25c-nbome and 25mg 2c-i), great music enhance, more euphoria. Just to dance and have fun. Personally I can't imagine the possibility of catching any bad trip in the mix.


----------



## IamMe90

since when is 25c on its own "light visual" ???


----------



## rtg

For me is, even in dose 500ug


----------



## PhyllipThylamine

I am disapointed that, despite placing an order many weeks ago, I have not recieved anything. A UK supplier who shall remain unamed, has failed me. They took weeks to confirm reciept of payment, ingored most of my emails (once I'd payed of course & have STILL failed to deliver. I've been very patient but I think I've been done!

*GUTTED*


----------



## amanitadine

That's great or terrible or whatever but doesn't really have much to do with the use of NBOMe 2C-C does it?

Better suited for a vendor board......


----------



## PhyllipThylamine

amanitadine said:


> That's great or terrible or whatever but doesn't really have much to do with the use of NBOMe 2C-C does it?
> 
> Better suited for a vendor board......



anyone else planning a UK based purchase might think twice, does that not relate to it's use?

Still, thanks for your kind words.


----------



## Mitchi

I just read the thread and Solipsis' idea with a carrier sounds pretty good. 

I was thinking if I could use a powder, which is slightly hygroscopic as long as I use a desiccant? 
And could i use vodka (37% ) in this process, or is IPA/higher grade ethanol necessary?


----------



## someguy

quick question...

worrying about a carrier powder being hygroscopic would only matter if you plan on storing the dried out "hit" for some time right?  if you just want to dry it out then ingest it quickly there shouldn't be a problem right?


----------



## Solipsis

Someguy: correct, but whether you put your 25C-NBOMe 'on' that hygroscopic carrier or just have to store that carrier in a dry way until the time that you want to apply it then quickly ingest is the same, right? In both cases you have to keep your carrier from becoming a gooey mess. So considering that I would personally prepare a few doses at once so that you don't have to do it every single time.
It does matter if you *do* let your carrier become wet and have to dry it out before applying your single dose. That is indeed also possible, you may dry some powders with heat if you don't have a dessicant though other powders are sensitive to heat. (FYI some dessicants can be 'recharged' with heat). Depending on the type of dessicant you might have, some dessicants are just too weakly hygroscopic themselves to pull out the water from another hydrated hygroscopic compound.

So Mitchi: if you use vodka I would not use a hygroscopic carrier because it might very well be a disaster to get it completely dry beyond a certain point. You don't wanna heat the shit out of 25C-NBOMe either and the dessicant you might have is possibly not powerful enough. If you have compounds on hand already that you plan on using it is simple: test it! See if you can get your carrier dry after it has been entirely wet with water or vodka. If not it is not suited because wet stuff cannot be weighed accurately if you don't know how much water is in it.

The best of course is to just get yourself a non-hygroscopic carrier, or one that is only mildly hygroscopic when exposed chronically but you should just store that properly like you would a 4-HO tryptamine for instance.
It's not very convenient that way, at least I would not put too much of my 25X-NBOMe compound on such a carrier at the risk that it will be irreversibly messed up.

Make sure you take the precautions against local concentrations of the NBOMe, you want to be certain it is all mixed well, make it homogeneous. Because using this 'tek' the wrong way is potentially dangerous and I demonstrated what I did myself but still have not tested. I feel confident about it the way I did it. But all of these things I really had to say to make it clear.

Not that I have to explain myself but I am in a pretty long period of not tripping right now and am also discontinuing other drug use, otherwise I would have been happy to try 25C in the blink of an eye already for sure. :D


----------



## Mitchi

Thanks for the input, it's much appreciated. 
I'll find something non-hygroscopic. Maybe vanilla? such a great odor it has


----------



## Solipsis

I don't think it's hygroscopic, but my gut feeling makes me opposed to mixtures instead of pure compounds - must just be the chemist in me but it increases the chance that there at least one of them that disagrees with the way you might turn out to handle it.
What's more important: I'm not sure if vanilla powder completely dissolves in water. It should, to carry something through the mucous membrane into the bloodstream effectively.

Rather than the kitchen cabinets I would keep my eye on shops that carry pure supplements as powders and see if something is among the products there. Or body building websites, etc.
Often they have a number of sugars as well, such as dextrose. I'm not entirely sure at this moment about how suited dextrose is and you probably shouldn't snort normal sugar either by the way, but some similar carbohydrates might be suitable. Choose powder though, no granulate.
I have heard suggestion of creatine, again a body building compound. Haven't researched how okay snorting that is exactly.


----------



## MattPsy

I've used destrose, it works well and is not hygroscopic. Not at all unpleasant to insufflate.


----------



## Solipsis

Like I said avoid crystals or granulate and choose powder, but other than that I can't think of a reason why any normal sweetener / sugar / carbohydrate would be a problem. Unless you're a diabetic 

This doesn't include the truly artificial ones like aspartame, but glucose (I don't think you will find this too often as a powder?), saccharose, dextrose, mannose, fructose... I can't think of something bad they would do. Of course they affect your blood sugar levels and are not all equally healthy, but not corrosive or anything.

Polyoles don't seem ideal to me but still not dangerous. In fact I just read that they are among the types of things usually found as cuts in drugs like coke.

Things coke is also cut with are phenacetin (bad for kidneys!), levamisol, lactose (solubility not ideal I'd say?), benzocaine and lidocaine (actually technically these are laces and we do not want those as a carrier) - but these are all things NOT to use, as examples.

I think we can conclude that it's best just to go for the sugars and NOT try to make it too fancy, neither resort to the most dubious of things because they are lying around the house and you are lazy.


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## Mitchi

Don't forget poor. But it'll be IPA and Dextrose


----------



## 2Cs

*2c-c-nbome on blotter... Any other possible ROAs than sublingual?*

550 mgc of 2c-c nbome on blotter.. is the any other routes one can use to
increase potency without effecting the amount on the blotter??


----------



## sekio

1. dissolve in water and insufflate (up the nose)
2. smoke it
3. shove it up your butt


----------



## higherconciousness

Sorry i'm relatively new here and this question has probably been asked numerous times, so sorry if i'm pestering anyone, but some feed back would be much appreciated.  I have exactly 6mg of 25c, what would be the best method to measure and dose. I have a 3ml syringe whats my best bet here?
(Again sorry if i'm placing this in the wrong section of BL)


----------



## atara

Liquid insufflation is my personal favorite. 2 mg/mL is a reasonable solution strength, so that'd be two drops (assuming you've got something 20 drops / mL) for 200 ug, five drops for 500 ug, etc.


----------



## higherconciousness

So Could I just put the 6mg in 6ml of water and dose .5ml for 500ug? Sorry if i didn't follow you completely.


----------



## skillet

Yeah, but I think 0.5 mL might be pushing the limits of what you can snort without it dripping into your throat. You should make it more concentrated if you want to insufflate it, but then it will be hard to measure accurately with a 3mL syringe.


----------



## higherconciousness

Yeah all i got is the 3 ml syringe and it can get a bit riskier the more  concentrated the solution is, so i guess i'll start low with something a little under .5 ml.  Is 300-400 ug intranasally a good starting point?


----------



## higherconciousness

Ahh see what you mean i tried insufflating .3ml and it went straight to the back of my throat. Damn i really want to use some, but im hesitant as to what approach i should take to administer such a small dose.


----------



## skillet

higherconciousness said:


> Im hesitant as to which hole i should use to administer such a small dose.



Fixed. Answer is the a-hole


----------



## higherconciousness

Haha, yes indeed.  I'll let ya know how that goes and thanks for the advice my friend. One quick question, is the dose requirement about the same for insuf vs plug?


----------



## skillet

I think it's similar yeah, but I wouldn't start with more than 200-250ug. That should be just above threshold, but I wouldn't go diving in with high doses of the stuff at first, take it easy. Quite a few people have tried it now, but it's still pretty uncharted territory, so take care.


----------



## higherconciousness

Most definitely will do and if im not feeling much at about the hour mark would it be acceptable to throw some methylone into the mix?


----------



## skillet

No, it would be kinda stupid. Wait it out, if it's not enough try a bit more next time.


----------



## higherconciousness

Ok didn't know wether or not this combo was covered, but i will surely take your advice and just wait till next time.  Again thank you for the help, you can never be to careful especially in these territories. Peace.


----------



## higherconciousness

Sorry but to be absolutely positive i have a solution of 6mg dissolved in 6ml of water, so if i want 250 ug would that be .25 ml correct?


----------



## skillet

It's still a pretty new drug, and not much is known about it, I think it's probably a bad idea to mix it with anything other than maybe weed. Especially when you've never taken it before. If you want to do a combo like that stick to something more well known, like acid/shrooms and MDMA.

Yeah if you had 6 mg and you dissolved it in 6 mL of water you'd have a 1 mg/mL solution, and a quarter of a mg would be a quarter of a mL.


----------



## IamMe90

skillet said:


> It's still a pretty new drug, and not much is known about it, I think it's probably a bad idea to mix it with anything other than maybe weed. Especially when you've never taken it before. If you want to do a combo like that stick to something more well known, like acid/shrooms and MDMA.
> 
> Yeah if you had 6 mg and you dissolved it in 6 mL of water you'd have a 6 mg/mL solution, and a quarter of a mg would be a quarter of a mL.



Maybe I'm just retarded but 6mg into 6mL would be a 1mg/mL solution wouldn't it?


----------



## atara

IamMe90 said:


> Maybe I'm just retarded but 6mg into 6mL would be a 1mg/mL solution wouldn't it?



Yes, and the difficulty in dosing this sol'n is why I had recommended something more concentrated.


----------



## Survived Abortion

What vessels are everybody using to make their solutions? I've been dying to try this stuff since I've had it sitting around, but I don't have any lab stuff like glassware. I have a stack of syringes for the measuring, but I don't know about the actual making the solution bit. Can anyone give me any recommendations as to what they are using, and the procedure they use so I don't make a hack job of it.


----------



## atara

I used an eardrops bottle.


----------



## skillet

IamMe90 said:


> Maybe I'm just retarded but 6mg into 6mL would be a 1mg/mL solution wouldn't it?



No, I was being retarded.


----------



## yoyoman

Finally tried this stuff the other day.

I dissolved 8mg into 5mL distilled water, and added 0.5mL vodka just in case it helped to kill any bacteria.  I put this into a metered nasal spray pump (0.1ml per puff). So this is "about" 150ug/puff.

Did one puff up each nostril.  Within 5 mins I was tripping and peaking around 10-15 mins.  Got up to a medium +++.

Although it was very colorful and had interesting unique visuals, I still had a 2c like body load.. although nowhere near as bad as 2c-b.  It was interesting, but fell short of my expectations from all the rave reviews.. maybe I need to try 3 puff's next time?

Oh, one thing to note is the body load seemed to almost go away after an hour or two, just leaving the trip.. lasted 6-8 hours although I wasn't watching the clock really.  At one point snorted a bump of 4-aco-dmt to "smooth" it out and make it fluid.


----------



## higherconciousness

Yea i messed that solution up (1mg/ml) way to much liquid, but i think i was able to get 200-300ug in the back of my nose with my head upside down for a few min. Id say i was at about a +2.  slightly triply headspace, very benign on the body. I think i might have to go through the bum next time if i wanna accurately dose.  Or is there anything i can add to the solution so it can be easily absorbed via insufflation?


----------



## higherconciousness

Like if i mixed a lil powdered sugar into say 500 ml, would it be possible to insufflate it so it wont go straight down my throat.


----------



## tregar

IMHO, NBOMe-2c-c is the perfect candidate for complexation with hydroxypropyl beta-cyclodextrin (special made sugar ring powder molecules) to significantly increase absorption of sublingual or nasal solutions. HBCD complexed drugs can work miracles in terms of absorption, it might be very well possible to turn this poorly absorbed and variably absorbed drug into one of much improved solubility, so much so that the same dose would have the same effect each and every time.

NBOMe-2C-C can be mixed with a (bacteriostatic water if you want it sterile) water solution of hydroxypropyl beta-cyclodextrin powder at a ratio of 10 times the amount of cyclodextrin powder to NBOMe-2c-c to make a water solution of NBOMe-2c-c that should be about 50 to 75% or more absorbed via the sublingual route as opposed to less than 25% ?? quite variable absorption sublingually normally.

Hydroxypropyl beta-cyclodextrin is a seven sugar ring molecule that "encapsulates" hydrophobic molecules making them easily soluble sublingually. 

This is the way that plain testosterone (non-water soluble) base is mixed with hbcd to make it absorbable sublingually under the tongue or between gum and cheek. Normally testosterone base is only weakly absorbed sublingually (way less than 25 percent absorbed), but when mixed (stirred) for 1 hour at a ratio of x 10 hbcd powder to testosterone in water, when the stirring is done, the solution can then be stored away and will then  be about 75 to 80% completely absorbed sublingually in record time. 

Bought a 5 lb jug of hydroxyproply beta-cyclodextrin several years ago from a sports supplement supplier for xx, it is a very super fine powder. Hope to experiment with this process in the future. Need to get a .001g scale first.  It does indeed work with testosterone base, cause experimented with this in the past, and it worked very well. Simply mixed 10mg of testosterone base with 100mg of hbcd for 1 hour in a container using a magnetic stirrer and stir bar, by the end of 1 hour all of that testosterone base would have been "complexed" with the hbcd, it was then indeed very active sublingually whereas normally it is only very very weakly active sublingually. The "complexed" testosterone was absorbed sublingually and caused strong "peak" mental effects to be noted in record time, whereas normally, the testosterone base caused no sort of perceptable mental change when non-complexed, as that way (non-complexed) it was only very very weakly absorbed.

When you mix testosterone base with water it does NOT dissolve at all no matter how long you stir it (it would simply float on top the water), but as soon as the hbcd powder was added to the water and began stirring, ALL of the testosterone powder dissolved completely into the water in a matter of minutes when mixed at high speed. Allow 1 hour for 100% complexation to fully complete. Read the manufacturer's data sheet on the web and all this can be learned, it states that 1 hour should be allowed for complete complexation, and sure enough it did work.

Several years ago (before the otc ban of pro-hormones) Noted Chemist Patrick Arnold created best selling sublingual pro-hormone products that incorporated hBCD powder with non-water soluble pro-hormones to make them highly effective sublingually. I had also bought some of his sublingual pro-hormone complexed products, they worked very well. Mental effects could be noted in record time via the sublingual route, highly effective. Patrick Arnold's company was called Ergopharm (you may be still able to find his cyclodextrin products by searching old web pages before the ban), more on Patrick: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Arnold  
He used to post cyclodextrin recipes on "usenet" (dejanews bodybuilding groups) now owned by I think Google.

As far as NBOMe-2C-C is concerned, for those who wish to not go "from 0 to 60" in a matter of minutes via use of a nasal spray or water snorting, but would rather have a much improved sublingual route of administration, this method should show great promise. Simply drop the "complexed" water solution of HBCD and NBOMe-2c-c onto the blotter, Then put it in-between upper gum and cheek. Not only would you received much improved absorption, but it would happen much quicker as well. I would say this holds way more promise over polysorbate 80 and lecithin as means to increase sublingual absorption. Febreeze uses HBCD powder to encapsulate it's fragance in solution, that's why it works so darn well. Hope to post results using this method in the future, just need highly accurate scale first, already have the 1ml syringe, etc.  

A sonic vibration device would likely work very well for mixing tiny solutions of HBCD and NBOMe-2c-c in water, or just tie-strap that perfume glass sample sized solution of hbcd and nbome-2c-c to an electric toothbrush for an hour, lol. I should mention that a complexed solution is quite "sticky" just like you would imagine a sugar and water solution to be. The reason the research states to use x 10 times the amount of hbcd powder, is because these 7-ring sugar molecules "surround" the hydrophobic molecules mixed in with it, causing them to be "incapsulated" allowing for high absorption percentage sublingually. I'm not going to go into the details here but check out the websites dedicated to HBCD to learn more.

I should mention that the solution should also improve nasal absorption, there were plenty of nasal cyclodextrin products made as well back then (all by Ergopharm only since they were Patented). There is quite a lot of variability among the same dose it seems with this RC, hopes with this idea exchange post is that perhaps we might be able to come closer to standardizing the effects (as well as increasing speed and percentage absorption) from the same dose over and over each and every time using hbcd, you never know...

There are less than a handful of some interesting experience reports in the Erowid NBome vault. Have not been interested in any of the RC's over the years until this family.

Testosterone solubility in water is extremely poor at 0.039mg/mL, however, when complexed with hbcd, it then becomes soluble. 

Wikipedia entry for hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin: hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclodextrin

A primer on how HBCD works: (Cyclodextrins in Drug Delivery Systems: An update)
http://www.pharmainfo.net/reviews/cyclodextrins-drug-delivery-systems-update

Here is a an old link for an example now defunct (no longer produced due to ban) Patented Ergopharm cyclodextrin sublingual product:

hxxp://www.netrition.com/ergopharm_cyclo_diol_powder_page.html



> Your rating: None Average: 3 (3 votes)
> S. Baboota, R. Khanna, S. P. Agarwal, J. Ali and A. Ahuja
> Department of Pharmaceutics, Faculty of Pharmacy,
> Jamia Hamdard, (Hamdard University), New Delhi-110062, India.
> 
> 1. Introduction
> 
> A drug delivery system is expected to deliver the required amount of drug to the targeted site for the necessary period of time, both efficiently and precisely. Different carrier materials are being constantly developed to overcome the undesirable properties of drug molecules (Szycher and Kim, 1991). Amongst them cyclodextrins (CDs) have been found as potential candidates because of their ability to alter physical, chemical and biological properties of guest molecules through the formation of inclusion complexes. CDs were discovered approximately 100 years ago and the first patent on CDs and their complexes was registered in 1953 (Loftsson and Brewster, 1996). However, their large scale commercial utilization was prevented mainly due to their high cost and concerns regarding their safety. Recent advancements have resulted in dramatic improvements in CD production, which have lowered their production costs. This has led to the availability of highly purified CDs and CD derivatives which are well suited as pharmaceutical excipients. A lot of work has also been done regarding the safety-assessment CDs and CD derivatives which has allayed the fears which were initially raised regarding their safety. Because of their structure and physico-chemical properties, CDs as drug carriers provide a number of advantages like:
> 
> 1. They provide a number of potential sites for chemical modification.
> 
> 2. CDs with different cavity sizes are available which makes it possible to entrap drugs of different molecular dimensions.
> 
> 3. The microenvironment in their cavity is relatively non-polar and lipophilic.
> 
> 4. They possess low toxicity and low pharmacological activity.
> 
> 5. They have a good aqueous solubility.
> 
> 6. They are rather resistant to hydrolysis by organic acids and many common alpha amylases, and completely resistant to yeast fermentation and beta amylases.
> 
> 7. They are not decomposed by hot alkali.
> 
> 8. They exhibit a high thermal stability, with a decomposition temperature approaching 300°C.
> 
> 9. They protect the included /conjugated drugs from biodegradation.
> 
> 10. They can be used as process aids to remove specific components from a mixture or minerals.
> 
> 2. Cyclodextrins and Complexation Phenomenon
> 
> CDs are cyclic (a-1,4)-linked oligosaccharides of a-D-glucopyranose containing a relatively hydrophobic central cavity and hydrophilic outer surface. Owing to the lack of free rotation around the bonds connecting the glucopyranose units, the CDs are not perfectly cylindrical molecules but are toroidal or cone shaped (Loftsson and Brewster, 1996). As a result of their molecular structure and shape, they possess a unique ability to act as molecular containers by entrapping guest molecules in their internal cavity. No covalent bonds are formed or broken during drug-CD complex formation, and in aqueous solution, the complexes readily dissociate and free drug molecules remain in equilibrium with the molecules bound within the CD cavity.
> 
> The parent or natural CDs consist of 6, 7 or 8 glucopyranose units and are referred to as alpha (a-), beta (b-) and gamma (g-) CD, respectively. CDs containing nine, ten, eleven, twelve and thirteen glucopyranose units, which are designated as d-, Î-, x-, h- and q- CD, respectively, have also been reported. Hundreds of modified CDs have been prepared and shown to have research applications, but only a few of these derivatives, those containing the hydroxypropyl (HP), methyl (M), and sulfobutylether (SBE) substituents have been commercially used as new pharmaceutical excipients.
> 3. Advantages of Cyclodextrin Inclusion Complexation
> 
> CDs have mainly been used as complexing agents to increase the aqueous solubility of poorly water-soluble drugs and to increase their bioavailability and stability. In addition, CDs have been used to reduce or prevent gastrointestinal or ocular irritation, reduce or eliminate unpleasant smells or tastes, prevent drug-drug or drug-additive interactions, or even to convert oils and liquid drugs into microcrystalline or amorphous powders.
> 
> 1. Enhancement of Solubility: CDs increase the aqueous solubility of many poorly soluble drugs by forming inclusion complexes with their apolar molecules or functional groups. The resulting complex hides most of the hydrophobic functionality in the interior cavity of the CD while the hydrophilic hydroxyl groups on the external surface remain exposed to the environment. The net effect is that a water soluble CD-drug complex is formed.
> 
> 2. Enhancement of Bioavailability: When poor bioavailability is due to low solubility, CDs are of extreme value. Preconditions for the absorption of an orally administered drug is its release from the formulation in dissolved form. When drug is complexed with CD, dissolution rate and consequently absorption is enhanced. Reducing the hydrophobicity of drugs by CD complexation also improves their percutaneous or rectal absorption. In addition to improving solubility, CDs also prevent crystallization of active ingredients by complexing individual drug molecules so that they can no longer self-assemble into a crystal lattice.
> 
> 3. Improvement of Stability: CD complexation is of immense application in improving the chemical, physical and thermal stability of drugs. For an active molecule to degrade upon exposure to oxygen, water, radiation or heat, chemical reactions must take place. When a molecule is entrapped within the CD cavity, it is difficult for the reactants to diffuse into the cavity and react with the protected guest. In the case of thermal or radiation induced degradation, the active must undergo molecular rearrangements. Again, due to the stearic constraints on the guest molecule within the cavity, it is difficult for the entrapped molecule to fragment upon exposure to heat or light or if it does fragment, the fragments do not have the mobility needed to separate and react before a simple recombination takes place. Volatile components can be stabilized against loss by reducing the volatility in case of liquids and by reducing the tendency of some solid products to sublimate. The deliquescence of hygroscopic substances is also reduced by complexation with CDs. Physical changes like sedimentation and caking in suspension or recrystallization of drugs to less soluble but thermodynamically more stable polymorphic crystal forms, etc., can also be prevented or reduced by complexation with CDs.
> 
> 4. Reduction of Irritation: Drug substances that irritate the stomach, skin or eye can be encapsulated within a CD cavity to reduce their irritancy. Inclusion complexation with CDs reduces the local concentration of the free drug below the irritancy threshold. As the complex gradually dissociates and the free drug is released, it gets absorbed into the body and its local free concentration always remains below levels that might be irritating to the mucosa.
> 
> 5. Prevention of Incompatibility: Drugs are often incompatible with each other or with other inactive ingredients present in a formulation. Encapsulating one of the incompatible ingredients within a CD molecule stabilizes the formulation by physically separating the components in order to prevent drug-drug or drug-additive interaction.
> 
> 6. Odor and Taste Masking: Unpleasant Odor and bitter taste of drugs can be masked by complexation with CDs. Molecules or functional groups that cause unpleasant tastes or odors can be hidden from the sensory receptors by encapsulating them within the CD cavity. The resulting complexes have no or little taste or odor and are much more acceptable to the patient.
> 
> 7. Material Handling Benefits: Substances that are oils/liquids at room temperature can be difficult to handle and formulate into stable solid dosage forms. Complexation with CDs may convert such substances into microcrystalline or amorphous powders which can be conveniently handled and formulated into solid dosage forms by conventional production processes and equipment.
> 
> 4.0 Applications of Cyclodextrins in Drug Delivery Systems
> 
> The multifunctional characteristics of CDs have enabled them to be used in almost every drug delivery system be it oral drug delivery or transdermal drug delivery or ocular drug delivery. The commercial viability of CD-based oral formulations has been established with the marketing of more than 20 products world-wide.
> 
> A number of excellent reviews have appeared in the literature in the last few years describing the applications of CDs in various drug delivery systems (Table 1). We present below an update on the recent work done in the different fields.
> 
> 4.1 Oral Drug Delivery System:
> 
> Since time immemorial, out of all the sites available for delivering drugs, oral route has been the most popular route for designing a drug delivery system. In the oral delivery system, the release of the drug is either dissolution controlled, diffusion controlled, osmotically controlled, density controlled or pH-controlled.
> 
> CDs have been used as an excipient to transport the drugs through an aqueous medium to the lipophillic absorption surface in the gastro-intestinal tract, i.e., complexation with CDs has been used to enhance the dissolution rate of poorly water-soluble drugs. Hydrophilic CDs have been particularly useful in this regard. Table 2 lists the various drugs that have been evaluated for their ability to form complexes with CDs and the improvement afforded by such complexation.
> 
> Rapid dissolving complexes with CDs have also been formulated for buccal and sublingual administration. In this type of drug delivery system, a rapid increase in the systemic drug concentration takes place along with the avoidance of systemic and hepatic first pass metabolism (Jain et al, 2002).
> 
> 4.2. Rectal Dug Delivery System:
> 
> Recent studies have shown that rectal mucosa can be used as a potential site for delivering drugs, which have a bitter and nauseous taste, have a high first-pass metabolism and degrade in the gastro-intestinal pH. It is an ideal route to deliver drugs to the unconscious patients, children and infants. However, rectal mucosa offers a very limited area for drug absorption resulting in an erratic release of drugs. To overcome these problems, a number of excipients have been used and amongst them, CDs have been found to be quite useful.
> 
> CDs, to be used as excipient in rectal drug delivery system should have the following characteristics:
> 
> 1. They should be non-irritating to the rectal mucosa.
> 
> 2. They should inhibit the reverse diffusion of drugs into the vehicle.
> 
> 3. They should have a low affinity for the suppository base.
> 
> Complexation of hydrophobic drugs with CDs have resulted in a significant increase in the rectal absorption of these drug (Table 3). The reason for the enhanced release has been attributed to the formation of a hydrophilic complex, which has a low affinity for the base and rapidly dissolves in the rectal fluids. It has been reported that the complexation enhances the dissolution of lipophilic drugs at an interface between the molten base and the surrounding fluid and inhibits the reverse diffusion of the drug into the vehicle. Recently the absorption of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) was found to increase by about four times in male rabbits when co-administered with a-CD (Kowari et al., 2002)
> 
> CDs have also been studied as rectal permeation enhancers. They have been found to increase the permeation of drugs through rectal epithelium cells. It has been reported that complexation of morphine HCl with a and b-CD resulted in an increase in the bioavailability of morphine when it was formulated as a suppository. The complexation increased only the bioavailability and did not alter the release rate of morphine from the vehicle. (Kondo et al, 1996; Uekama et al, 1995) CDs have also been used to prevent the local irritation of drugs on the rectal mucosa.
> 
> 4.3. Nasal Drug Delivery System:
> 
> The use of nasal mucosa for transporting drugs is a novel approach for the systemic delivery of high potency drugs with a low oral bioavailability due to extensive gastro-intestinal breakdown and high hepatic first-pass effect. CDs have the ability to enhance drug delivery through biological barriers without affecting their barrier function, a property which makes CDs ideal penetration enhancers for intranasal drug delivery. CDs can also act as solubilizers for lipophilic water-insoluble drugs, making it possible to formulate such drugs in aqueous nasal spray formulations. Furthermore, CD complexation can stabilize drugs which are chemically unstable in aqueous solutions, and decrease drug irritation after nasal application.
> 
> CDs, when used as excipients in nasal drug delivery system should have the following characteristics:
> 
> 1. They should not have any local or systemic effect.
> 
> 2. They should not interfere with the nasal muco-ciliary functions.
> 
> 3. They should not show ciliostatic effect.
> 
> 4. They should be non-irritating and non-allergenic.
> 
> 5. They should enhance the permeation of drugs across nasal epithelium in a reversible manner.
> 
> The absorption enhancement afforded by CDs can be attributed primarily to their ability to reduce the physical or metabolic barriers to drugs. Another potential barrier to the nasal absorption of drugs is the limitation in the size of hydrophilic pores through which they are thought to pass. The hydrophilic CDs solubilize some specific lipids from biological membrane through the rapid and reversible formation of inclusion complexes, leading to an increase in the membrane permeability. Of all the CDs available, HP-b-CD and methylated b-CDs have been used mainly as solubilizers and absorption enhancers in nasal drug delivery system.
> 
> The concept of pulsed estrogen therapy has recently been exploited by the introduction of a nasal spray delivery system containing CD (Al-Azzawi, 2002). The administration of estradiol via the nasal mucosa was made possible by the use of randomly methylated alpha-CD, which increased the solubility of estradiol. The new formulation provided reliable dose-dependent exposure to estradiol, avoiding the hepatic first-pass effect and demonstrated good biological and clinical efficacy. Bioavailability and clinical evaluation of a CD based intranasal formulation of midazolam also showed results comparable to an intravenous formulation with respect to the speed of absorption, serum concentration and clinical sedation effect (Gudmundsdottir, et al., 2001; Loftsson et al., 2001) Table 4 lists the various drugs evaluated for their complexation ability with CDs and incorporated into nasal drug delivery systems.
> 
> The safety of CDs as nasal absorption enhancers has also been studied extensively. It has been found that toxicity can occur at two stages. First, when the CD is in direct contact with the nasal mucosa, i.e., local toxicity and secondly, when the CD complex has been absorbed through the nasal epithelium, i.e., systemic toxicity. From the literature review, it has been found that local toxicity of CDs on nasal mucosa is not significant. However, the risk of systemic side effects of CDs after nasal administration depends on how much CD has been absorbed and it has been found that after nasal administration of a drug CD formulation, only the drug is absorbed by the nasal epithelium but not the highly water soluble CD. The CD portion not absorbed is removed by the nasal muco-ciliary clearance system, which transports the unabsorbed CD towards the oesophagus, from where it is swallowed. (Marttin et al., 1997b; Marttin et al., 1998). Asai et al (2002) have recently shown that 30 or 60 min exposure to 10% w/v HP-b-CD or randomly methylated b-CD resulted in no obvious mucosal damage to the nasal mucosa of rats.
> 
> 4.4. Transdermal Drug Delivery System :
> 
> Transdermal drug delivery system is a sophisticated and more reliable means of administering the drug through skin, for local and systemic action. It offers the advantages of minimization of side effects due to the optimization of the concentration profile of drug in blood with time, avoidance of first-pass metabolism, easy termination of therapy by mere removal of patch, predictable and extended duration of action and greater patient compliance due to reduction in the frequency of dosing. However, the most important limitation of this drug delivery system is the limited permeation of drugs through human skin. The human skin is composed of unvascularized epidermis and highly vascularized dermis below it. The external layer of epidermis called stratum corneum is less permeable as compared to the other layers beneath it. Before a topically applied drug can act either locally or systemically, it must penetrate the stratum corneum, the permeation barrier. A number of studies have been carried out to find safe and suitable permeation enhancers to promote subcutaneous absorption of drugs.
> 
> Use of CDs as permeation enhancers has gained tremendous popularity over the past few years. The rate of permeation of the drug through the skin is affected by partition coefficient of the drug between the skin and vehicle and the thermodynamic activity of drugs in vehicle.
> 
> CDs to be used as excipients in transdermal drug delivery system should possess the following characteristics:
> 
> 1. They should be therapeutically inert.
> 
> 2. They should not interfere with the normal functions of the skin such as protection from heat, humidity, radiation and other potential insults.
> 
> 3. They should not alter the pH of the skin.
> 
> 4. They should not interact with any component of the skin.
> 
> 5. They should not cause skin irritation.
> 
> In transdermal drug delivery system, hydrophilic, hydrophobic as well as ionizable CDs have been used as carriers for drugs. Hydrophilic CDs like 2,6 dimethyl-b-CD and hydroxypropyl-b-CD have been used to improve the solubility and dissolution characteristics of insoluble drugs. Hydrophobic CDs such as 2,6 diethyl-b-CD have been used to retard the dissolution rate of water soluble drugs and ionizable CDs like carboxymethyl-b-CD, sulfated and sulfobutylether-b-CD have been used to improve inclusion capacity and reduce side effects associated with drugs.
> 
> Table 5 lists the drugs which have been complexed with CD successfully in dermal preparation to minimize systemic side effects, improve patient compliance for long term therapy, increase solubility and retard release of drug substances.
> 
> 4.5. Ocular Drug Delivery System :
> 
> In an ocular drug delivery system the most preferred dosage form is the eye drop due to easy instillation in the eye. But the major disadvantage of this dosage form is its inability to sustain high local concentration of drug. The other dosage form for ocular treatment includes oily drops, gels, ointments, suspensions and inserts but these formulations suffer from the drawback of causing irritation and blurred vision. There is therefore a need of an agent, which can overcome these problems while formulating an ocular dosage form. In ocular drug delivery CDs have been used to increase the solubility and/ or stability of drugs and to prevent side effects of drugs such as irritation and discomfort.
> 
> CDs have been used to solubilize poorly water soluble drugs and enhance ocular bioavailaibility of lipophillic drugs by keeping the drugs in solution and increasing their availaibility at the surface of the corneal barrier. Hydrophillic CDs such as HP-b-CD and sulphobutyl-b-?CD have been used for the purpose mainly due to their non-toxicity and hydrophilicity. CDs to be used as an excipient in ocular drug delivery system should possess the following characteristics:
> 
> 1. They should be non-irritating to the ocular surface, as irritation can cause
> reflex tearing and blinking resulting in fast washout of instilled drug.
> 
> 2. They should be non-toxic and well tolerated.
> 
> 3. They should be inert in nature.
> 
> 4. They should enhance the permeability of the drug through the corneal mucosa.
> 
> Numerous studies have shown that CDs are useful additives in ophthalmic formulations for increasing the aqueous solubility, stability and bioavailability of ophthalmic drugs, and to decrease drug irritation. Table 6 lists the drugs which have been evaluated for their complexation ability and incorporation into ophthalmic drug delivery system.



Shown below: β -cyclodextrin: seven sugar ring molecule


----------



## Solipsis

Haha I love the idea using an electric toothbrush as a vortexer! :D

Good to know this compounds seems to be a superior surfactant / emusifier / complex agent.

But don't use SWIM on this site please. It doesn't help, that is an illusion.


----------



## Jakeperson

Just received a sample of this to try some time soon. What is a good dose for a first timer?

Plenty of psych experience. Is there cross tolerance with other 2c's or acid? As I took 2c-p and 2c-t-4 on the weekend and will probably be having some acid this weekend at a doof.


----------



## sekio

Read the thread, and yes, this does produce tolerance.


----------



## herbata_yanga

> Just received a sample of this to try some time soon. What is a good dose for a first timer?



If you are going to use it via buccal ROA and you say that you got plenty experience then take 750-1000ug.


----------



## sekio

Further experimentation leads me to believe that using 0.1%-1% Tween 20 or some other excipent is a must if you are concerned with cost. This produces consistently good results (+2/+3) with both 25c and 25d at dosages varying from 100 to 800ug via sublingual/buccal (4 people, 8 trials), effects comparable to LSD. I think >1mg would be overwhelming.

The formulation I use is 1 or 2mg/ml of the HCl in water + a small% of polysorbate. This way less than a ml of liquid can be swirled around the cheeks, tongue and gums and ensure good absorbtion.


----------



## higherconciousness

I think that answer/quesstion was directed towards me " Tregar" I just want something to mix into my desired dose, which would approximately be 500ml, so that it will all get absorbed as opposed to running all the way back down the throat.  Not sure, just woke up work with me here.


----------



## sekio

There is nothing you can mix into 500ml to get it all absorbed, unless you want to boil some of the liquid off or put 2 cups of water up your ass. You may well pour that down the drain.

A general rule is that it's always easy to add more solvent, hard to take it off.


----------



## tregar

Based on the last paragraph (3.3.4) on NBOMe-2c-I in the paper by Nichols, (could  not attach paper as it exceeds forum rules) we know the Ki values of NBOMe-2c-I (INBMeo) as compared with LSD.

The paper is called "High specific activity tritium-labeled N-(2-methoxybenzyl)-2,5-dimethoxy-4-iodophenethylamine (INBMeO): A high-affinity 5-HT2A receptor-selective agonist radioigand" By David E. Nichols from www.sciencedirect.com

Attached is the Ki graph of LSD and here are the Ki values for NBOMe-2c-I so comparisons can be made:

The Lower the Ki value, the more strongly the drug bonds to receptors.

NBOMe-2c-I:

The ligand had low affinity for most receptors, with the following reported Ki values (nM) for receptors where it had significant affinity:

5-HT2a (1)
5-HT2c (2)
5HT6 (73, +/-12)
u opiate (82, +/-14)
H1 (189, +/-35)
5-HT2B (231, +/-73)
kappa opiate (288 +/-50)

all other ki values were greater than 500 nM:

5-HT1A
dopamine D3
Histamine H2
5-HT1D
X1A adrenergic
S opiate
serotonin uptake transporter
5-HT5A
5-HT1B
dopamine D2
5-HT7
dopamine D1
5-HT3
5-HT1E
dopamine D5
muscarinic m1-m5
histamine H3
and the dopamine uptake transporter.

It may be it's lack of significant activity at the dopamine receptors that perhaps accounts for it's lack of significant activity regarding appetite as compared to LSD (see graph). But this is only an assumption.

The reason for comments on forums pertaining to NBOMe-2c-I being the "most like LSD" as compared with other NBOMe's is most likely due to it's super high affinity to the 5-HT2A receptor (just like LSD). It was the one that had the highest affinity for 5-HT2A as compared with other NBOMe's according to Nichols.

Now for LSD affinities (based on the graph on "LSD" entry from wikipedia):


----------



## Survived Abortion

atara said:


> I used an eardrops bottle.



Thanks. I got one of them 10ml Olbas Oil vials. So I've prepared my solution, 2.5mg/ml. What's the general come-up time on this?


----------



## higherconciousness

Well im not dumping it down the toilet, but looks like i need  a copious amount of liquid up the ass for any effectiveness. 
- I've heard the come up time vary from different ROA's obviously, but the consensus seems +5-30 min for the come up. I went intranasal and it came on surprisingly quick about 10 min and i was there. Peaked at about 45-1 hour for me anyways.


----------



## higherconciousness

I think this one's my new favorite


----------



## tregar

Sorry higherconsiousness, didn't mean to step into your question earlier. Thanks for the report. Any more details on how your experience went? did it increase music appreciation or make you have some deep belly laughs watching funny things like when on acid for example? I know a couple that took it and broke out into deep belly laughs watching daytime court shows and Tootsie on two seperate occasions, they really loved it and one of them had fantastic CEVs as well.

p.s forgot to mention that beta-cyclodextrin can still be found on auction sites, but other than that, I've only seen it offered by the big chemical companies like sigma aldrich, etc. etc nowdays, unfortunate but true. I got it from a sports supplement company that went out of business due to the pro-hormone ban. If it can make totally insoluble hydrophobic testosterone into 100% water soluble solution in less than 1 hour, then it can do the same for the hydrophobic nbome molecules, increasing sublingual or nasal absorption many fold, not to mention drastically increasing time of absorption. This is the stuff the big boys (ergopharm  for example)  use to make highly efficient patented sublingually delivered medicine. The 2c-i nbome version is said to be especially hydrophobic. The beta-cyclodextrin excels with hydrophobic molecules.

Remember that a smaller number means that a compound is more potent at the particular receptor:

LSD:

5-HT1A = 1.1
5-HT1B = 90
5-HT1D = 11
5-HT1E = 93

5-HT2A = 3.5
5-HT2B = 25
5-HT2C = 23

5-HT5A = 7
5-HT5B = 5
5-HT6 = 6
5-HT7 = 6

d1 = 27
d2 = 6.4
d3 = 261
d4 = 230
d5 =

adrenergic = 37
histamine H1 = 1083

The significance of 5-HT5A, 5-HT6, and 5-HT7 receptors are unknown, but
psychedelic tryptamines such as psilocin or DMT do have significant affinity for 5-HT1A receptors.
---------------------
NBOMe-2c-I:

5-HT2A = 0.044 (exceptionally high)
5-HT2B = 231
5-HT2C = 2

5-HT6 = 73

u-opiate = 82
kappa opiate = 288

histamine H1 = 189
----------------------
LSD Lysergamides (interaction with 5-HT2A, 5-HT1A are explored only for comparisons, rat data):

Lysergic acid diethylamine (LSD):

5-HT2A = 4.8
5-HT1A = 4.4

Lysergic acid isopropylamine:

5-HT2A = 26
5-HT1A = 5.2

Lysergic acid methyl isopropylamine (rat data suggest it "might have" about 1/2 the acitivity of LSD itself, ie human
activity would be 1/3rd that of LSD):

5-HT2A = 28
5-HT1A = 4.6

Lysergic acid ethyl isopropylamine:

5-HT2A = 17
5-HT1A = 3.7

Lysergic acid diisopropylamine:

5-HT2A = 17
5-HT1A = 18

Lysegic acid 2-aminobutane (same molecular weight as LSD itself):

5-HT2A = 8.8
5-HT1A = 2.0

Lysergic acid 3-aminopentane:

5-HT2A = 8.0
5-HT1A = 2.1


----------



## atara

SurvivedAbortion said:
			
		

> Thanks. I got one of them 10ml Olbas Oil vials. So I've prepared my solution, 2.5mg/ml. What's the general come-up time on this?



You'll feel effects within 30 minutes and start tripping by an hour. Plateau usually by the second and its length is dose-dependent.



higherconciousness said:


> I think this one's my new favorite



I guess you're good to go then. ^,~


----------



## Jakeperson

Would chopped up blotters in water be the best way to administer rectally?

Also, classical psychs do not work very well on me because I am on Mirtazapine however most 2c's seem to be unaffected. Which group is this compound more likely to fall into?


----------



## skillet

That's probably how I'd do it if I had blotters. You might want to add a drop of distilled vinegar to be sure the compound is in the water soluble salt form though (it probably is already, do they taste bitter? It wouldn't hurt to do this anyway though, just to be sure.)

It's most like the 2C's pharmacologically, I guess mirtazepine would have even less effect on this than the 2C's because of it's very high affinity.


----------



## sekio

The 25x-NBOMe series has very high affinity for the 5-HT2a/5-HT2c receptors and should displace all but the most potent antipsychotics...

The closest relative I would say, in terms of binding affinity, is LSD.


----------



## Jakeperson

Thats the thing even at fairly high doses LSD produces not much more than threshold and side effects. Shrooms only give nausea, 2c's haven't been a problem.


----------



## sekio

This drug lacks the "broad-spectrum" activity of most of the 2C drugs and would therefore not be expected to be very effective if LSD doesn't produce effects.


----------



## skillet

sekio said:


> This drug lacks the "broad-spectrum" activity of most of the 2C drugs



Says who? If that's by analogy to 25I-NBOMe, Ettrup _et al._ reported that affinities at 5-HT2, 5-HT6, 5-HT1A and D3 were within two orders of magnitude of that at 2A. So they're probably not _that_ selective. And if anything is broad-spectrum it's LSD.


----------



## pharmakos

sekio said:


> This drug lacks the "broad-spectrum" activity of most of the 2C drugs and would therefore not be expected to be very effective if LSD doesn't produce effects.



LSD and 25C-NBOMe might both give "narrow spectrum" effects, but there's no reason that i can see to believe that they focus on the same part of the spectrum!


----------



## tregar

Someone had asked a question at the beginning of this thread about how this stuff is measured out...

I'm pretty sure how researchers are weighing this out is by weighing out 100mg on a .01 or .001 scale (a .001g accurate scale is a highly recommended), adding the 100mg to 100ml of water, in volumetric solution this will reach equilibrium so that 1ml of it can be sucked up into a 1ml insulin syringe, so that you then have 1000ug in 1ml, each 1/10th of ml then equal to 100ug of material. if using a .01 scale, the 100ug measured out material would vary from inbetween 90ug to 110ug. if using a .001 scale, this variance would be much less.

I also recall reading in the past bodybuilding forums that people were having success by simply placing a layer of beta-cylodextrin powder (still available from auction sites) over the hydrophobic testosterone powder, giving it a short while to "complex", no spinning of powders necessary, it was said to be just as effective as stirred solutions...so I would imagine if you shot out 300ug or so of water-dissolved material onto a blotter which has allready had the 7-sugar cyclodextrin molecule powder applied/dissolved into it, that you should then apply a small layer of cyclodextrin to the top of the blotter allowing it to absorb into the blotter as well, this should hopefully then be sufficient for creating a complexed material, ready for buccal absorption in between top gum and cheek.


----------



## Jakeperson

thenightwatch said:


> LSD and 25C-NBOMe might both give "narrow spectrum" effects, but there's no reason that i can see to believe that they focus on the same part of the spectrum!



Well then looks like the only way to really know is to find out. I will give this a whirl tomorrow night.


----------



## Mung Hunter

I have a question regarding dilution. I have diluted 10mg of 25c-nbome, and 10mg of 25d-nbome separately into 20mg of water each. Meaning they are diluted at a ratio of 500ug/ml. I used regular bottled water and shook them around a bit and they seemed to dissolve just fine as I could not see any particles separate from the water. I also know that this was a good quality chemical as the vendor I bought it from has an amazing reputation and everything else I've received from them has been great. 

For some reason doses up to 750ug had no effect on people. I made sure I got all 11mg(they gave 1mg extra just so you got at least 10mg) out of the bag because I dropped water into the bags, and then extracted it with a pipette. Any idea why these would have had no effect on people? I kept them inside amber vials away from sunlight and heat. I also only diluted them about 3 days before they were used so they shouldn't have been in the solution long enough to degrade. Also the doses were taken sublingual, and held there for a minimum of 5 minutes. The only thing I can think of is, I don't believe I shook the solution just before ingestion, but as I said there are no visible particles in the solution so would I need to shake it again? Do you think the remaining part of the solution has become much more potent now because it was not shaken before ingestion?


----------



## Jakeperson

It's possible but there does seem to be a lot of variance on effects from sub-lingual dosing


----------



## hoffa

At wednesday I took two 550mcg blotters at my upper gum and didn't swallow for 20 minutes.
Only felt a small buzz, no trippy feelings, I had no tolerance at all.
Are my blotters bad or what?
And can I take 4-aco-dmt tonight?


----------



## Jakeperson

Did they taste bitter?


----------



## hoffa

Jakeperson said:


> Did they taste bitter?



Yes, they did.
A bitter taste that was hard to loose for a while..


----------



## teh1buck

Any reports of flipping this with MDMA?


----------



## Rorthron

Mung Hunter said:


> I have a question regarding dilution. I have diluted 10mg of 25c-nbome, and 10mg of 25d-nbome separately into 20mg of water each. Meaning they are diluted at a ratio of 500ug/ml. I used regular bottled water and shook them around a bit and they seemed to dissolve just fine as I could not see any particles separate from the water. I also know that this was a good quality chemical as the vendor I bought it from has an amazing reputation and everything else I've received from them has been great.
> 
> For some reason doses up to 750ug had no effect on people.
> ...



This may be way off but was it the freebase or the HCl salt? the former is basically insoluble. In my case i had the freebase. When i first added water to it it just clumped together in the bottom of the vial. So basically very few 25-C in solution. I calculated the solution molarity and added the equivalent of HCl to make the salt. The clump dissolved and it was pretty effective at 200 ug dosages.


----------



## skillet

It sounds like the salt if it dissolved easily. I think it's just that sublingual dosing is really hit and miss. Maybe people should experiment with surfactants, or cyclodextrin like tregar said, if they insist on going this route, it might make it more reliable. I guess simply wetting a blotter with a tiny amount of shampoo or washing up liquid (unless, of course, you can get pure surfactants) to a blotter before injesting could help a lot, but be sure to lower the dose to 1-200ug max, at least at first, if anyone is going to try that.

People have reported a large increase in potency by combining with a surfactant, but I can't remember if it was with sublingual administration or insufflation, or both.


----------



## Survived Abortion

I took ~375ug rectally at 20:00, as close to that dose as I could get as there there was still a bit of liquid left in the nozzle after administration. The way it comes on is intense, I didn't expect the body-rush. I felt first alerts almost immediately, within about a minute after administration, and I was coming up fast within 5 minutes. The body-load is overwhelming,  I'm astonished people are able to handle the much higher doses people are reporting here. Before there were any visuals, I felt an incredible push inside my chest, like my heart was being squeezed, my face felt tight and I had an immense amount of pressure inside of my physical body. My pores opened almost immediately, there is an quick onset of perspiration with this drug. My heart rate was noticeably elevated, and my blood-pressure 'felt' high. A strange headache which set in with the increased pressure lasted around 10 minutes. Temperature elevation was noted a couple of hours in.

Visually, the body-peak happened before the visual one, but even so there was not really much in the way of visuals. The initial rush provided an onset of colour saturation and strobing, but even these effect were far milder than I had expected by what is reported. Audials increased with the visuals, with a slight rise in tinnitus or universal noise, but again quite mild. The 'visuals' (or the visual aspect) peaked at about an hour to an hour and a half and consisted of simply an enhancement of the aforementioned colour saturations along with a slight expansion of the visual depth and size and very very mild cartooning, almost non-existent. There was no appreciable music enhancement effects. If I hadn't known I had taken a drug, I would have thought that it just was another flux of HPPD.

I must say that I'm a bit disappointed. I hadn't expected the negative body-load to be so high in comparison to the psychedelic effects, especially at such a small dose. Maybe it had to do with the route of administration, but I hardly think that insufflation would make those things better. Sublingual may be easier. Or it could be that I'm becoming more sensitive to psychedelics these days as I use them far less often than I used to. I have also been in a fairly anxious mindset for many months now, so that could have contributed.

I'm tempted to see what lie further down the rabbit-hole with this one, as other people are clearly enjoying it. But I cannot reconcile those body effects. It may be that I need to become a lot more physically healthy before I embark on such potent and unknown chamicals as the NBOMEs. Tryptamines have always been good to me (mostly) as have the 2C series.


----------



## bob_arctor

Survived Abortion said:


> I took ~375mg rectally at 20:00, as close to that dose as I could get as there there was still a bit of liquid left in the nozzle after administration. The way it comes on is intense, I didn't expect the body-rush.


 
just for clarification, you mean 375 mcg right? 375 mg would be an insanely high dosing.


----------



## Survived Abortion

^Oh yes, oops. Thank you for pointing that out! Corrected to ~ug.


----------



## Jakeperson

1mg plugged made for one of the best and most colourful experiences I have ever had.

Think 2c-c and acid combo with a bit of 2c-t-7 body feeling. IME anyways.

Any one had much experiences with higher doses?


----------



## Jakeperson

This stuff does work on Mirtazapine. Which I am off now anyways.



Just took a moderate dose of lsd. I might snort some 25c-nbome depending on how strong this tab is feeling in 30-45 mins.

Any one got any idea of how long before tolerance will kick in? I'm guessing it would be the same as with dosing more LSD, around an hour into it.


----------



## yoyo50

Got some blotters 350ug, coming at end of the week hopefully, seeing as sub lingual is rubbish at best, what would be the best way, adding x amount of water to a tab in a bottle cap then sniff the water?

Cheers


----------



## LogicSoDeveloped

I got offered some of this stuff maybe a month ago. The person offered it to me as mesc and when I became interested, they explained it this stuff, dissolved in nasal spray. I declined as I wasn't sure of the dosage on the spray but if I ever come across it, I'll know how much to take thanks to this thread


----------



## atara

It's appalling all of the stuff that gets passed off as mescaline.


----------



## tregar

Have been experimenting with a new method that makes a 20 minute upper gum buccal application have imho the same exact potency as nasal application (I have experience with both), see post 59 here:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...cy-25I-NBOMe-Thread/page3?highlight=25i-nbome

It is based on the study that got 95% absorption of another hydrophobic (water-fearing) drug testosterone via the sublingual route in 20 minutes, when normally less than 40% of testosterone can be absorbed via the sublingual route. 

It involves the complexation of HPBCD (hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin) to the drug molecule for significantly improved sublingual/buccal effectiveness, I found the method to be outstanding and is the only method I will use from now on, even over nasal application. I am certain in my experience that I got the same 95% buccal absorption when I complexed HPBCD to 25i-nbome, absolutely wonderful molecule by the way.


----------



## skillet

It sounds great if you have the cyclodextrin. Would you be willing to do a comparison with surfactant treated blotters too? There was some talk a while back about that increasing the potency by insufflation, but I don't think anyone tried it by buccal/sublingual routes. I think all the reports used polysorbate 80, but I expect you can just put a small drop of some kind of liquid soap (washing up liquid, shower gel, laundry detergent) and kind of smear it across before taking it...


----------



## ChemicalSmiles

seeing as I have high blood pressure as a young man. (27 yrs old) I get concerned about taking 2c xx compounds.... any input?


----------



## Mung Hunter

Yes sorry for not fully clarifying, it was the hcl, and also the one it was 25d-nbome where people seemed to not be experiencing up to 750ug's, the 25c-nbome hasn't been tried yet. Skillet, you said the sublingual dosing was really hit and miss, is that just with these chemicals or do you mean altogether? There are a few other things I always take sublingually like mxe, diazepam, and phenazepam and they always work much better sublingual than any other option so it's strange to me that this one wouldn't work as well. But I spoke with some people this weekend that had tried the same solution of 25d-nbome and had a great time(hadn't spoke to them since the festival), so I guess you're probably correct.


----------



## deko

*Febreeze.*

AS sources for HPBCD  in uk seem to be very limited.

It turns out febreeze's main ingredient is what were are looking for, i may make a attempt with this , but needs to find a full list of other ingredients first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Febreze

OK

*Ingredients*



> Purified Water
> Alcohol
> Cyclodextrin
> Modified polydimethicone
> Hydrogenated Castor Oil
> Alkanolamine
> Sodium Hydroxide
> Citric Acid
> Quaternary Ammonium Chloride
> Benzisothiazolinone
> Perfumes



From Wiki it seems that Benzisothiazolinone is toxic, but i need to find out in what quantities.



> It is a known human immune system toxicant, and also is classified as irritant for skin, eyes and lungs.[3] It is widely used as active ingredient of many home cleaning products.


----------



## Solipsis

A surfactant in a simple soap is one thing but a product like Febreze, really? I doubt I would find it worth the potential nausea or even bodyload during the onset to increase the potency.   I would opt for a higher dose over this.


----------



## skillet

Mung hunter, yeah i just mean with these compounds. And it's just the impression I get reading reports.

Deko, the ingredients just say cyclodextrin, but wiki says Febreze contains HPBCD. Surely they didn't just write cyclodextrin instead on the ingredients list? And I wonder if it works as well with plain cyclodextrin?

It looks from the order of the list that benzisothiazolinone is present in fairly small quantites, hard to say much more though.


----------



## deko

*Google is your friend*

http://www.scienceinthebox.com/en_UK/glossary/cyclodextrin_en.html

http://addiandcassi.com/procter-gambles-febreze-product-active-drug-compound-enter-human-cell/

So it does look like they use HPBCD.


----------



## skillet

I just think it's strange, everywhere else on the web says they use HPBCD, but everything from P&G just lists cyclodextrin. They have 'modified polydimethicone' on the one I'm looking at now, they could at least write modified cyclodextrin. Surely you can't put cyclodextrin on the ingredients list if you're actually using HPBCD? (Sorry, it's a bit off topic)

On topic, I doubt there's much danger in ingesting small amounts of Febreze, you're going to end up injesting small amounts anyway by spraying it on stuff.


----------



## sekio

Hydroxypropyl cyclodextrin is not cyclodextrin.

I wouldn't be ingesting Febreze, that shit stinks. I think Tween/SLS (fuck, just use toothpaste@!#@#) is probably good enough for most people.


----------



## skillet

That's my point, either they use one or the other, the ingredients say cyclodextrin, everything else on the web (not from the manufacturer) about Febreze says it uses hydroxypropyl cyclodextrin. So which is it? 

But whatever, like you said it's not really an appealing source of the stuff anyway.


----------



## tregar

How to complex HPBCD to Nbome
go from 50% sublingual absorption to 95%

Bought a 5lb container of it (hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin) from a sports supplement 
supplier several years ago, before the pro-hormone ban for less than $90 I have seen small 50 gram bottles of it for sale on various auction sites, but other than that I have not seen it anywhere else, other than being offered by the big chem guys like sigma aldrich, etc. If you can get it, definately give it a shot, I found the buccal applied hpbcd-complexed 25iNbome to be the same potency as 350ug applied nasally, equipotent. 

You should always use x 9 times the amount of HPBCD to drug, for example, if you wanted to "complex" 100mg of nbome, then you want to add 900mg of HPBCD into your H20 solution. First dissolve the HPBCD into your water, magnetically spin it for a few hours, then drop in a solution of your drug over the course of around 5 minutes, then allow it all to stir for 8 hours, then it will all be complexed. 95% sublingual absorption is entirely possible in 20 minutes, just as the Joseph Pitha showed that HPBCD-complexed testosterone achieved 95% absorption in 20 minutes. Both drugs (nbome and testosterone are hydrophobic). What I did was add 900mg of HPBCD to 50ml of 95% etoh, spun this for several hours, then set aside, then added 100mg of Nbome to 50ml of 95% etoh, allowed this to spin 12 hours. Then the next day, put the HPBCD etoh solution back on the magnetic stirrer, then as it spun, dropped in the 50ml of etoh/Nbome solution over the course of 5 minutes using a long pipette, then allowed the solution to spin another 12 hours. then put the solution away in freezer. Since it is possible for etoh to "compete" for entrance to the cyclodextrin cavity along with the drug, I later on simply sprinkled about 5 to 10mg of HPBCD powder on the 2" x 3/8" filter paper blotter first, then dropped the 0.350ml (350ug) of HPBCD/drug solution onto the powder on the blotter paper, then allowed it to dry for 15 to 20 minutes in front of a fan/heater, then applied to upper gum, this last step of applying dry HPBCD powder to the blotter, then overlaying it with the drug solution was just an additional step to ensure that I added to make absolutely sure I would get complexation, a double whammy in other words. There are so many different ways to complex HPBCD to your drug it's not even funny, I'll post some info here:

The reason I didn't use water with my HPBCD solution was because I wanted to be able
to store the solution away in freezer for example, without it turning into solid ice like water would in the freezer, which would then require defrosting to be able to suck up the amount of drug you needed with insulin syringe, that would be a pain. So that's why 95% etoh was used. HPBCD is soluble in 95% etoh just fine.

If I were to do this again, I would add 900mg of HPBCD to only 25ml of 95% etoh (instead of 50ml of 95% etoh) and also add the 100mg of drug to only 25ml of 95% etoh (instead of 50ml of 95% etoh), that way the final combined solution is 100mg of drug in 50ml of 95% etoh, giving each 0.100 ml equal to 200ug of drug, evaporates faster when put on blotter filter paper since less alcohol. I would still sprinkle HPBCD powder on top the blotter filter paper piece before dropping the drops of drug solution onto the paper, to ensure complexation does indeed take place no matter what. You could also possibly dissolve the filter paper blotter in a water solution of HPBCD, then drop the drug solution onto it, allow it to sit in a humid environment for many hours (think run a humidifier near by, similar to one of the Dazed methods below), then simply allow it to dry, then it's done. There are many different methods.

Here is some old info on HPBCD complexation to for example testosterone from back in the day:





> HPBCD Basics
> 
> By David Tolson
> 
> Introduction
> 
> One of the primary issues concerning steroids and prohormones is that of optimal delivery. While most drugs and supplements are taken orally, there are a number of reasons why this method is largely ineffective with most prohormones. When taken orally, these compounds are extensively metabolized in the liver, making the dose used much larger than the amount that gets through. This may also place undue stress on the liver, especially with certain substances. Because of this, other delivery methods, such as transdermal, sublingual, and intranasal, have all become popularized, and each has advantages and disadvantages. This article discusses the compound hydroxypropyl-beta cyclodextrin (HPBCD), which can be used to facilitate prohormone delivery in a number of ways.
> 
> Cyclodextrins are a group of compounds that are commonly used in medicine to increase the aqueous solubility of drug substances by complexation [1]. Cyclodextrins are cyclic oligosaccarides, or sugars, which contain alpha-1,4 linked glucopyranose units (in the case of beta-cyclodextrins, seven of these units) in a truncated cone shape [2]. This results in a molecule that has an internal cavity that is hydrophobic and easily forms a complex with a steroid/prohormone molecule, while the outer surface of the cyclodextrin is hydrophilic, and this makes the complex easily dissolvable in water [2-4]. This renders prohormones much more bioavailable, and cyclodextrins are capable of enhancing nasal, sublingual, and transdermal delivery [5-6], among others. Moreover, cyclodextrins will cause much less irritation than other methods [3, 7].
> 
> The cyclodextrin of choice for prohormone delivery is HPBCD. When compared to other testosterone beta-cyclodextrin complexes, HPBCD was 1,533 percent more soluble in water, while another study found that HPBCD-steroid complexes were effective while beta-cyclodextrin-steroid complexes were not [4]. HPBCD also has an excellent safety profile.
> 
> Sublingual delivery
> 
> Sublingual delivery (administered under the tongue) presents an attractive alternative to traditional oral administration. Because of the limited surface area, the amount of prohormone that can be absorbed at one time appears to be 25 milligrams or less. However, when compared to oral delivery, even this amount is advantageous. One study found that a cyclodextrin complex containing 10 mg of testosterone delivered sublingually raised testosterone levels by 900% over baseline, with a 485% elevation at the two hour point. In contrast, even 200 mg of oral testosterone only raises levels by around 500% at the peak. A study comparing oral and cyclodextrin complexed 4-androstenediol also found that the sublingual version lead to a 261% greater increase in testosterone with one quarter of the dose, with the peak levels at 40 as opposed to 90 minutes. [4]
> 
> All in all, sublingual delivery is much more effective than oral for the amount used, but it does require more frequent dosing. Sublingual prohormones are usually taken 3-5 times daily.
> 
> Intranasal delivery
> 
> Intranasal delivery takes the trend of sublingual delivery even further. It is doubtful that more than 20 mg at a time will be absorbed using this method, and blood levels quickly spike 15 minutes after delivery and then dissipate to baseline by 90 minutes. Running a cycle using this method is impractical, as one has to dose up to 10 times daily. However, bioavailability is further increased – intranasal delivery has the highest bioavailability of all prohormone delivery methods, short of injection [7]. Additionally, intranasal delivery provides the most direct route to the brain [6, 7]. For these reasons, this method has become popular for pre-workout stimulant purposes. Many people report increased workout intensity from intranasal prohormones. DHT precursors are best suited to this purpose, although some other prohormones may make effective pre-workout stimulants as well.
> 
> Conclusion
> 
> HPBCD complexes can allow for a number of novel effective prohormone delivery methods. Each one has unique advantages and disadvantages. For further information, as well as information on creating your own cyclodextrin complexed prohormones, I recommend the following article:
> 
> Alternative Steroid Delivery Systems, by Dazed
> 
> If you have any questions or comments regarding this article
> 
> No part of this article may be reproduced in any form without the permission of David Tolson or Mike McCandless.
> 
> References
> 
> 1. Eur J Pharm Sci. 2003 Oct;20(2):197-200. Driving forces and the influence of the buffer composition on the complexation reaction between ibuprofen and HPCD. Perlovich GL, Skar M, Bauer-Brandl A.
> 
> 2. Int J Pharm. 2003 Sep 16;263(1-2):173-81. The effect of beta-cyclodextrins on the permeation of diclofenac from supersaturated solutions. Dias MM, Raghavan SL, Pellett MA, Hadgraft J.
> 
> 3. Mind and Muscle Magazine Issue #9. Alternative Steroid Delivery Systems by Dazed.
> 
> 4. Super Andro: Cyclodextrin Technology Shatters the Absorption Barrier by Patrick Arnold and David Garrett.
> 
> 5. Int J Pharm. 2003 Mar 6;253(1-2):1-11. Mechanistic studies of the effect of hydroxypropyl-beta-cyclodextrin on in vitro transdermal permeation of corticosterone through hairless mouse skin. Shaker DS, Ghanem AH, Li SK, Warner KS, Hashem FM, Higuchi WI.
> 
> 6. Int J Pharm. 2002 Oct 10;246(1-2):25-35. The effects of water-soluble cyclodextrins on the histological integrity of the rat nasal mucosa. Asai K, Morishita M, Katsuta H, Hosoda S, Shinomiya K, Noro M, Nagai T, Takayama K.
> 
> 7. The Scoop on Intranasal Prohormones by Patrick Arnold





> Dazed:
> 
> The best tool available to make nasal and sublingual steroids are derivatives of beta cyclodextrins. The one that is most readily available is hydroxypropyl-beta cyclodextrin (HPBCD). (Note: Plain beta-cyclodextrin is of little use) In case you have not heard of these, cyclodextrins are cyclic oligosaccarides (sugars) that have a hydrophilic outer surface and a hydrophobic inner surface.(3)
> 
> They can be thought of as a doughnut, with the center capable of having a steroid molecule stuck inside it. The hydrophilic outer surface makes the cyclodextrin soluble in water, and when it is combined with a steroid, it can make the poorly water soluble steroid soluble as well.(3)
> 
> In addition to making steroids soluble, cyclodextrins have very other important properties that make them ideal for our purpose. Cyclodextrins are known to enhance steroid delivery through biological membranes.(3) The large CDs themselves are very bad at permeating biological membranes, but they deliver the steroid to the membrane, where it partitions into the membrane, leaving the CD on the outside of the membrane.(3)
> 
> The conventional penetration enhancers like alcohols or polyethylene glycol act by disrupting the lipid layers of membranes.(3) That is a big source of irritation from the old formula, and this irritation can thus be avoided by the use of CD’s. Another advantage is, once administered, the steroid is rapidly absorbed. Nearly 95% of the steroid will be absorbed within 20 minutes. This also causes the need for multiple doses throughout the day.
> 
> Complexation:
> It seems that hardly anyone out there knows how to complex a steroid with a cyclodextrin. One procedure I saw on a different company’s steroid column was laughable. It was pretty obvious that whoever wrote that procedure knew very little about cyclodextrins. It is really fairly easy to do. There are multiple ways to do it, but I will tell you three methods to try, depending on what resources you have available. In all instances, you need a ratio of 9g of HPBCD to 1g of steroid. Complexation occurs because the steroid is more energetically stable inside the CD than outside of it. It is an equilibrium process, but the equilibrium lies much more on the side of complexation.(3) Water is essential for complexation to occur. It is removed from the inner cavity to allow for the steroid to enter, but even normal room humidity is sufficient for complexation if the mix is given sufficient time.(4)
> 
> Method1
> For the first method we will formulate it for a total of 2g of steroid.
> Dissolve 18g of HPBCD in 80ml saline in a beaker on a stir plate. Once this is dissolved, slowly add the 2g of steroid over about 5 minutes. Let this stir overnight. Filter out any insoluble particles. This provides a 25mg/ml solution.
> 
> Method 2
> For the second method, we will formulate it for 1g of steroid.
> Triturate (mix in a mortar with a pestle) 9g HPBCD with 1g steroid. Place this in a high humidity environment for 2-4 days. I have used a covered fish tank with water in the bottom, but anything that can create a humid environment will work. A syrup will form, and this is dissolved in 40ml saline and you have a 25mg/ml solution.
> 
> Method 3
> For the third method, we will formulate for 4g of steroid.
> Triturate 36g of HPBCD with 4g steroid. Let this sit at normal room temperature and humidity for a week. Complexation will occur, but takes time with this process Dissolve the powder in 160ml saline. This again makes a 25mg/ml solution.
> These solutions can be made stronger by adding less saline, but the closer you get to 50mg/ml, the thicker the solution becomes. At 75mg/ml, the solution is too viscous to do anything with.
> 
> Editors Note: I am assuming he is talking about mg of actual androgen, not mg of androgen/cyclodextrin complex, because cyclos will dissolve just fine at 300mg/ml, which I think is ample, anyway.
> If prohormones are used, you will probably want to filter the solution, since there are a lot of insoluble impurities in most of the prohormone powders out there.
> 
> Can I Inject?
> I performed a little experiment with 4-androstenediol and HPBCD. I complexed some 4-Adiol with HPBCD as in example 1. I evaporated off some water until there was a 50mg/ml solution. This was sterile filtered this into a sterile vial and injected. These were the most painfree injections I have ever had with 4-Androstenediol. The cool thing about this formula is that it can be shot subcutaneously or intermuscularly, since it cannot crystallize and dissipates quickly because it is so water-soluble. Although I never tried, multiple daily shots would be needed to impart any kind of muscle building effect, and although you will never be limping because of a painful muscular injection, it would just be too much of a hassle. Another reason not to do this is because most HPBCD available is not endotoxin free, so you could be setting yourself up for a nice fever or illness, or possibly a very bad reaction that could cause death. That is always a good reason to avoid something.
> 
> Intranasal and sublingual delivery systems can be very useful. Not only do they work well, but the needle phobic and the human pincushion now have a way to add more steroids to their body. Those who want to get a boost in blood levels before a workout are now free to do so. As an added benefit, I can’t say I have ever heard of someone having their nasal inhaler confiscated to be tested for anabolic steroids. Enjoy!
> Reference:





> What are cyclodextrins?
> 
> Cyclodextrins are a form of linked carbohydrates. They're formed by an enzymatic synthesis that begins with starch. The enzymes, called transglycosidases, are derived from bacteria. What these enzymes do is couple the starch molecules together to form a truncated, conical, molecular structure with a hollow cavity inside.
> 
> The inside of this cyclodextrin "cone" is just about the perfect shape and volume to accommodate a steroid molecule. It's also a non-polar molecule, which means that it has some of the same properties as a fat or oil. The steroid molecule doesn't just sit inside the cone, it actually attaches to the inside of it. Also, it won't dissolve in water. However, while the inside of the cyclodextrin cone is non-polar, the outside is polar, which means that it will dissolve in water. What's the significance of all of this? When a steroid molecule and a cyclodextrin molecule hook up, they form a 1:1 complex. So, while the steroids themselves won't dissolve in water, a cyclodextrin/steroid complex will. The upshot is that steroid complexes become more absorbable through the oral mucosa.
> 
> A lot of clinical research has been published on the use of sublingual cyclodextrin complexes (SCCs) in humans. At the forefront of much of this research has been Josef Pitha of the US Department of Health and Human Services. Pitha has several patents on sublingual cyclodextrin complexes. He's also authored a journal article where he details the results of an SCC of testosterone on men. In a nutshell, Pitha found that an SCC containing 10mg of testosterone per tablet raised testosterone levels astronomically high (900% over baseline at one hour) and at two hours the levels were still elevated 485%. Compare that with another study that used regular testosterone at 20 times the dosage used in Pitha's study. Regular testosterone - not complexed with cyclodextrin - only raised testosterone around 500% at the peak.
> 
> Another study performed by Stuenkel et.al. showed that testosterone SCCs of 2.5 and 5.0mg raised testosterone levels in hypogonadal men 2341% and 4270% (absolute increases of 1765 ng/dL and 2406 ng/dL) respectively! It took an average of 20 to 30 minutes to achieve maximum blood testosterone levels, but even after eight hours post-dose, the testosterone levels were still elevated 126% for the 2.5mg dose and 195% for the 5.0mg dose. Interestingly enough, the peak levels for estradiol only increased 300% and 340% over baseline, respectively. Remarkable, considering that one usually sees estradiol levels increase proportionally with testosterone levels when other forms of administration are used (i.e. injectable esters and TU orals).


----------



## boxednirvana

I had very light but not completely disappointing trips with this material until I tried plugging while supplementing with piracetam.  900 ugs plugged with 800 mgs of piracetam was more intense than any LSD or Mescaline I've done, and I've eaten my fair share.   The weirdest part was the rapid onset.  I plugged the 25C-Nbome and about 15 minutes later or so I was catapulted into the stratosphere.    Bye bye birdie.  I think the rapid peak would put most people off trying this.  It was quite unnerving.

Once I realized it wasn't going to increase in intensity I relaxed and enjoyed it.  A great 5 hour plateau and it slowly and gradually leveled off over the course of 2-3 hours.


----------



## tregar

Thanks for the trip report boxednirvana, "900ugs plugged with 800mgs of piracetam was more intense than any LSD or mescaline I've done", awesome.


----------



## Jakeperson

The quick intense come up is to be expected with plugging or smoking this.


----------



## tregar

Just as I suspected.....this is an important study (below) from the cyclodextrin mega-expert Dr. Joseph Pitha:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0378517392902816

hxxp://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0378517392902816

"Effects of ethanol on formation of inclusion complexes of hydroxypropylcyclodextrins with testosterone or with methyl orange"

by Josef Pitha and Teruhiko Hoshinoa


> National Institutes of Health, National Institute on Aging/GRC, Baltimore, MD 21224 U.S.A.
> Received 21 June 1991;
> revised 9 October 1991;
> accepted 25 October 1991.
> Available online 4 November 2002.
> 
> Abstract
> 
> Gradual additions of ethanol decreased and eventually abolished the formation of inclusion complexes of testosterone with hydroxypropylcyclodextrins in aqueous solutions. With hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin this occured through two mechanisms. At low concentrations of ethanol (less than 30 percent), the solvent primarily acted as a competing guest compound; at higher concentrations the dissociation primarily occurred through non-specific solvent effects. With hydroxypropyl-γ-cyclodextrin only the dissociation through nonspecific solvent effects was observed. Surprisingly, when ethanolic solutions containing fully dissociated complexes were evaporated, the solid residues had properties characteristic of complexed species, i.e., they showed the rapid and complete dissolution characteristic of complexes prepared by freeze drying of aqueous solutions. That inclusion complexes were formed during the final stages of evaporation of ethanolic solution of components was confirmed by measurements of circular dichroic spectra of a methyl orange: hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin combination. In this combination the spectra of included species were highly characteristic and were recorded both in aqueous solutions and in solid state after the evaporation of ethanolic solutions but not in concentrated ethanolic solutions.
> 
> Keywords: Cyclodextrin; Hydroxypropylcyclodextrin; Inclusion complexation; Solvent effect; Testosterone


I had read similar reports in the past of ethanolic solutions competing for entrance to the cyclodextrin cavity (along with the drug) due to the non-polar inner cavity of the cyclodextrin (CD)...normally, with a water solution of CD, the inner liphophilic cavity of the CD attracts hydrophobic molecules (such as testosterone or 25i-nbome)...the CD works by making "caging" or "trapping" these hydrophobic drugs inside them, then due to the CD's outer cone properties, allows them to dissolve in water so that they can deliver the drug to the surface of the mucosal membranes, where the CD then detaches but then transfers the drug through the mucosal membranes.

Earlier you may have noticed that I dissolved 100mg of 25i-nbome in 50ml of 95% ethanol (drinkable alcohol), and also dissolved 900mg of HPBCD in 50ml of 95% ethanol, doing this on two seperate magnetic stirrers, after 8 hours, the 50ml of 95% ethanol solution with the dissolved 25i-nbome was transferred via long 12" pipette over the course of about 20minutes (slowly) to the spinning 50ml of 95% HPBCD solution, then after that, the one remaining combined solution was allowed to stir for 12 to 24 hours.

The solution was stored in a jar in freezer where it would keep indefinately. The advantage to this, is that the 95% etoh solution will not freeze, so there is no need to "dethaw" it like you would have to do had you dissolved the HPBCD and drug in a water solution. Another advantage is that the etoh evaporates fairly fast (after about 1 hour, the blotter paper is completely dry) when applied to filter paper blotter, so long as a fan heater is kept pointed at the paper for the duration of evaporation.

Keep in mind that I also sprinkled about 5 to 10mg of additional HPBCD powder on the 1.5" x 5/16" wide filter paper blotter to cover the surface of it before I dropped the drops onto it via insulin syringe needle tip. I did this for "added insurance" that the complex would form as the etoh fully evaporated from the paper in the final stages.

In the study above we see that due to the competition of ethanol for the inner cone of the CD, we will not get a complex of 25i-nbome to the HPBCD until after the drops of solubized drug are transferred to paper blotter, and then allowed 45 minutes to 1 hour for complete evaporation of etoh from the blotter, finally leaving a complex of HPBCD to drug on the paper, this occurs only after all the etoh has evaporated,

so in essence, I have been on the right path, as I always applied the blotter after all the etoh had evaporated, when the paper was completely dry, then I would apply to upper gum, and it worked fantastic.

So in other words, the way I have been complexing has been working due solely to the HPBCD complexing to the drug as the etoh evaporates from the blotter paper, causing a complete complex in the end.

"Surprisingly, when ethanolic solutions containing fully dissociated complexes were evaporated, the solid residues had properties characteristic of complexed species, i.e., they showed the rapid and complete dissolution characteristic of complexes prepared by freeze drying of aqueous solutions. That inclusion complexes were formed during the final stages of evaporation of ethanolic solution of components was confirmed by measurements of circular dichroic spectra of a methyl orange: hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin combination. In this combination the spectra of included species were highly characteristic and were recorded both in aqueous solutions and in solid state after the evaporation of ethanolic solutions but not in concentrated ethanolic solutions."

So you have a few choices when you complex HPBCD to 25i-nbome:

1. you can do it the way I did above, but remember that the HPBCD will not complex to the drug until the final stages of the ethanol has evaporated from the blotter, after the blotter is dried, then you will have HPBCD-complexed to 25i-nbome.

2. you can dissolve HPBCD powder in distilled water, then drop in your 25i-nbome drug and allow it to spin 12 hours or so, then the HPBCD will easily be complexed to the drug in solution, then just drop the appropriate amount of water drops on blotter, allow it to dry, and it's ready. This could also be used nasally (as HPBCD improves nasal absorption as well), if you add this solution to an empty metered nasal pump (such as the nasa*ort spray pum), then each spray of the nasal pump will equal approximately 0.100ml. To sterilize this solution, suck it up in a 100ml plastic syringe, screw a 0.22 micron whatman filter to the end of the syringe, and push the contents using your thumb to press on the plunger until the solution gets pushed thru the filter into a pre-alcohol washed empty metered nasal bottle. Then add say 5% (exact figure not known) of 95% etoh to the nasal bottle solution as well, to keep it from growing bacteria.


> What are cyclodextrins?
> 
> Cyclodextrins are a form of linked carbohydrates. They're formed by an enzymatic synthesis that begins with starch. The enzymes, called transglycosidases, are derived from bacteria. What these enzymes do is couple the starch molecules together to form a truncated, conical, molecular structure with a hollow cavity inside.
> 
> The inside of this cyclodextrin "cone" is just about the perfect shape and volume to accommodate a steroid molecule. It's also a non-polar molecule, which means that it has some of the same properties as a fat or oil. The steroid molecule doesn't just sit inside the cone, it actually attaches to the inside of it. Also, it won't dissolve in water. However, while the inside of the cyclodextrin cone is non-polar, the outside is polar, which means that it will dissolve in water. What's the significance of all of this? When a steroid molecule and a cyclodextrin molecule hook up, they form a 1:1 complex. So, while the steroids themselves won't dissolve in water, a cyclodextrin/steroid complex will. The upshot is that steroid complexes become more absorbable through the oral mucosa.
> 
> A lot of clinical research has been published on the use of sublingual cyclodextrin complexes (SCCs) in humans. At the forefront of much of this research has been Josef Pitha of the US Department of Health and Human Services. Pitha has several patents on sublingual cyclodextrin complexes. He's also authored a journal article where he details the results of an SCC of testosterone on men. In a nutshell, Pitha found that an SCC containing 10mg of testosterone per tablet raised testosterone levels astronomically high (900% over baseline at one hour) and at two hours the levels were still elevated 485%. Compare that with another study that used regular testosterone at 20 times the dosage used in Pitha's study. Regular testosterone - not complexed with cyclodextrin - only raised testosterone around 500% at the peak.
> 
> Another study performed by Stuenkel et.al. showed that testosterone SCCs of 2.5 and 5.0mg raised testosterone levels in hypogonadal men 2341% and 4270% (absolute increases of 1765 ng/dL and 2406 ng/dL) respectively! It took an average of 20 to 30 minutes to achieve maximum blood testosterone levels, but even after eight hours post-dose, the testosterone levels were still elevated 126% for the 2.5mg dose and 195% for the 5.0mg dose. Interestingly enough, the peak levels for estradiol only increased 300% and 340% over baseline, respectively. Remarkable, considering that one usually sees estradiol levels increase proportionally with testosterone levels when other forms of administration are used (i.e. injectable esters and TU orals).


----------



## ephrem

Having researched appr. 1mg of 25C-NBOMe today I must admit there's something lacking. 

Altough a bodyload was almost absent, the feeling of being engulfed in the psychedelic experience was also almost absent.

No real CEV's to speak of except for vague patterns and predominantly the color green. OEV's were the usual breathing.

Perhaps a slightly higher dose is in order next time, but purely based on this experience 25C is bland to me.


----------



## herbata_yanga

What ROA have you used?

As for 25C - generally it is toy to get stoned


----------



## ephrem

Insufflated. 

25I-NBOMe is next but i hope it's better than its cousin.


----------



## Jakeperson

Make sure you wait at least 2 weeks or you will experience a massive tolerance and probably wont feel much.


----------



## boxednirvana

It bugs me when people say 25C is weak.  IT IS NOT!  I don't know if it was the piracetam I took which brought out all the goodness but 900 ugs plugged after taking an 800 mg dose of piracetam knocked my socks off.   I won't keep harping on it because I shared my experience a few posts up but I'd seriously love for people to try what I did and then tell me it's a 'toy'.   I'm going to try a 300 ug dose with piracetam sometime in the next two weeks and I'll report back.


----------



## Jakeperson

1mg plugged was pretty intense and I'm not on any racetams


----------



## ephrem

Jakeperson said:


> Make sure you wait at least 2 weeks or you will experience a massive tolerance and probably wont feel much.



Will do!


----------



## Cyanoide

I still have some 550mcg blotters and I'm now considering plugging them since they didn't work well buccally. I've never plugged anything before, but there shouldn't be any problem with plugging blotters? Anyway people who've plugged LSD blotters (not that I consider it that necessary, since acid works so well sublingually) say it works better than sublingually.

I think I'll use my LSD blotters first though, it's a long time ago since I had such strong acid blotters. 25C is much more stable anyway so it can wait.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Please ! Any advices to help me dissolve 25C/D-NBOMe in solution ? I used water at first but it doesn't seems to dissolve well (I tried shaking the vial very fast but can't dissolve well --"). I used to dissolve 10mg into 100ml of water so it will be 100µg/ml but I can't even dissolve the powder well. They are particles of the chemicals in the water and it won't dissolve.

Any ideas about the solvent for dissolving these compounds ? I heard about using Chloroform but I can't get my hands on it. Last time I had ion-exchange blotters but this time it's powder form so.

What do you suggest ?

My bad for my english.


----------



## skillet

Add a little distilled vinegar, a few drops should do it for 10mg, but a little more won't hurt, and wait, shaking occasionally. It might take a long time so be patient, maybe heat it a bit. Next time dissolve it in vinegar first, then dilute with water and it should be much quicker.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Does Alcohol like white vodka 37,5% or distilled water would be more appropriated ?


----------



## skillet

Either will be fine, I'd use 1:1 vodka:water to prevent bacterial growth. If you just use water you'll have to freeze it if you want to keep it for more than a short time.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

So the best is to mix Alcohol with some distilled water. I planned to make some blotters to plug, I guess distilled water will be more appropriated no ? Or Alcohol can do the job too for laying into 1 blotter ? (I just want to plug a blotter infact)


----------



## skillet

Then it doesn't really matter.


----------



## yoyo50

Cyanoide said:


> I still have some 550mcg blotters and I'm now considering plugging them since they didn't work well buccally. I've never plugged anything before, but there shouldn't be any problem with plugging blotters? Anyway people who've plugged LSD blotters (not that I consider it that necessary, since acid works so well sublingually) say it works better than sublingually.
> 
> I think I'll use my LSD blotters first though, it's a long time ago since I had such strong acid blotters. 25C is much more stable anyway so it can wait.



I have 4 330ugs blotters left, tried 1 sublingal wasnt very strong, so would one just shove the blotter up ya?


----------



## skillet

You could try, but I think you'd probably be wasting it. I'd put it in a small vial with a mL or so of hot water and poke it around with something until it (hopefully) disintegrates, or you could cut it into small pieces first. Then suck the water and paper bits into a syringe and squirt that in there. I think it'll be absorbed much better that way.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Can someone told me how the strenght for 350µg is ? I made some homemade blotters for myself. Does it will be active or I just underdose them ? Going to plug a blotter in my ass soon 

Thanks !


----------



## yoyo50

I did a 330ug blotter, sub lingal and it wasn't very strong, but we know that roa sucks so plugging could be alot stronger..


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Ok

Also I have a tek for anyone who want help about measuring and dosing.

This is an example, let's say you want to dose 5 blotters of 25X-NBOMe with 200µg (assuming it's an example) so :

Determine the number of tabs on the blotter sheet - The perfing schedule (number of tabs per sheet) will allow you to know the number of doses per sheet. Let's assume that that you want dose 5 25X-NBOMe blotters (regular blotter like LSD).

Determine the retention volume of the blotters - The retention volume is the amount of liquid that can be supported by the absorptive properties of the blotters against the force of gravity. The process uses the chosen solvent (most often distilled water and alcohol, 37% alcohol would do the job too). The DRY blotter tabs are weighed (generally requires a balance with 0.01 / 0.001 gram sensitivity). This blotters are then over-saturated with the desired solvent for about 5 minutes, then picked up by a corner and allowed to drip off the excess solvent for about 30-60 seconds (when solvent drips occur a few seconds apart), and the thoroughly soaked blotters are then weighed again. The difference between the two weights (After-Before) is the weight of solvent retained. Let's assume for example that the sheet retained 12 grams (12ml) of solvent.

Selecting the desired dosage - Choose the dosage that you want each tab to deliver. For this example let's assume that we want 200ug of 25X-NBOMe whatever for each tab.
(Note: From this point forward proper safety equipment [gloves, safety glasses, and respirator] can be usefull).

Making the soaking solution - The blotters soaking solution needs to have 200ug per tabs ~ (dose) x 5 (number of blotters) x 1.03 = 1,30mg of 25X-NBOMe (the 1.03 factor is for the 3% excess, midway between 2% and 4% ) and this needs to be dissolved in 12 ml x 1.03 = 12,36 grams (ml) of pure solvent (distilled water or again alchool) (again, 1.03 is for the 3% excess). We dissolve the NBOMe in the solvent with stirring until it is completely dissolved.

Soaking the blotter – Place the dry blotters in a ziplock plastic bag slightly larger than the blotters tab and slowly pour in the soaking solution, trying to distribute the solution over most of the blotters. After completing this then attempt to seal the bag in a way to limit the amount of air remaining. Allow to sit on a horizontal surface in the dark for about 5 minutes to distribute evenly.

Drying the blotters – Carefully remove the soaked blotters from the plastic bag and hold by the corner to allow excess solution to drip off the blotters and back into the bag. When the drip rate from the soaked blotter is one drop every few seconds place the wet blotter on a drying rack (consisting of plastic-headed pins stuck into a flat piece of wood), and put the assembly in a dark location (away from the sun and fluorescent lights) with good ventilation and allow to dry completely (several hours to a day, depending on air movement, temperature, and relative humidity).

OR THIS IS A SECOND PROCESS BUT NEEDS MORE ATTENTION

This alternative process is a highly accurate way to provide dosage on blotters, albeit requiring more effort for preparation. Most importantly, this process is suitable for all compounds, regardless of the D/R curves, since it does not suffer from problems related to the inhomogeneity of blotter material or the other issues mentioned above. This process requires the acquisition of at least one highly specialized piece of laboratory equipment, a brand-new variable volume (adjustable) micropipette (something in the range of 0-100ul or so) that uses disposable plastic tips. These are not too expensive. With the use of additional, even more highly specialized equipment the process can be sped up substantially, but that is not the purpose of this TEK.

The basic process is the placement of very small, but highly accurate, amounts of solution on each tab. The amount of solution dispensed is selected to not permit the total soaking of the tab, but rather to only soak the very center of the absorbent blotter tab. When done this way, using the proper equipment, the user can be quite certain that each tab contains the exact amount of material desired, to very high accuracy and reproducibility.

Determine the number of tabs on the blotter sheet - The perfing schedule (number of tabs per sheet) will allow you to know the number of doses per sheet. Let's assume that the perfing schedule provides 14x14 tabs, for a total of 196 tabs ^^

Determine the retention volume of the blotter sheet - The retention volume is the amount of liquid that can be supported by the absorptive properties of the sheet against the force of gravity. The process uses the chosen solvent (most often distilled water or again alcohol..). The DRY blotter sheet is weighed (generally requires a balance with 0.01 / 0.001 gram sensitivity). This blotter sheet is then over-saturated with the solvent for about 5 minutes, then picked up by a corner and allowed to drip off the excess solvent for about 30-60 seconds (when solvent drips occur a few seconds apart), and the thoroughly soaked blotter sheet is then weighed again. The difference between the two weights (After-Before) is the weight of solvent retained. Let's assume for this exercise that the sheet retained 30.80 grams of solvent. Since this is water, 1 gram is almost 1 ml, or, more exactly, 1 gram = 1/0.9975 = 1.0025 ml @ 23 degrees C (about 73F). See http://www2.volstate.edu/CHEM/Density_of_Water.htm for the density of water at other temperatures. (BTW, the density of pure ethanol and various ethanolic solutions with water can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_(data_page) and the best data for acetone can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone, but it lacks variation of density with temperature).

Either calculate the tab “dispensed volume” limit – Divide the volume of solvent (30.80 grams) by the number of tabs in the sheet (196 for this example  ) to get the maximum volume of solvent that can be absorbed per tab. So 30.80 / 196 = 0.157ml or 157ul. The dispensed volume should therefore be in the range of 20% to 35% of the saturation limit for the tab, or 31ul to 55ul. 40ul would seem about right.

Or

Determine the “dispensed volume” limit visually – Prepare 5ml of solvent (like previously said distilled water or alcohol) with a drop or two of food color added (assuming it dissolves. If not, there are many organic-soluble dyes that can be used for organic solvents. Select one of them.). Take your adjustable micropipette and set the dispensed volume to 10ul, fill the tip and dispense the 10ul onto the center of blotter tab, just touching the tab lightly during dispensing. Adjust the micropipette to dispense 15ul and repeat the process on a new blotter tab. Continue the process, increasing the dispensed volume in 5ul steps, until the spot starts approaching the perf edges. Allow all the spots to dry. Now examine the spots (looking at both sides of the blotter tab) and determine the dispensed volume that leaves a spot that has plenty of margin surrounding it and is not even close to the perfs. That is your maximum dispensed volume.

Preparing the solution for dispensing – We need to calculate the amount of compound to dissolve in the chosen solvent. Let’s assume that we decided that proper dispensed volume for the specific blotter tabs that we have is 40ul, and the solvent is distilled water. And let’s assume that you want to dose 200ug or whatever of your favorite NBOMe in each tab. So we need 196 (tabs) x 40ul x 1.03 (3% extra) x 0.9975 (density of water @ 23C) = 8.055 grams of water. Into this dissolve 196 (tabs) x 200ug x 1.03 (3% extra) / 0.99 (assuming that the compound is 99% pure for this example) = 40,78mg of compound. Remember, the solvent must completely dissolve all of the compound! I also recommend that you add a very small amount of food coloring to the solution or even .5ml alcohol.

Dispensing the solution onto the blotter tabs – The key for this portion of the process is to accurately dispense the 40ul of solution onto each tab, but making sure that each tab only gets one dispensing. This is the rationale for the small bit of food color added to the solution in the previous step – to help the user see that a tab (in both the wet and dry state) has been already been dispensed, and prevent the potential for “double dosing”. Take your adjustable micropipette and set the dispensed volume to 40ul, fill the tip and dispense the 40ul onto the center of blotter tab, just touching the tab lightly during dispensing. Repeat the process until all tabs have been dosed.

Drying the blotter – Put the blotter sheet into a dark location (away from the sun and fluorescent lights) with good ventilation and allow to dry completely (several hours to a day, depending on air movement, temperature, and relative humidity).

Consuming the blotter 1st method - Sublingual, Upper gum, cheeks
                              2nd method - Put blotter in some solvent again to release the chemicals in the solvent, then snort it or use nasal spray
                              3rd method - Plug in the ass 

Enjoy and take care !

Hope it helps 

Anyway the first method as previously mentionned should be the easiest to begin with !

NOTE : Only for educational purpose only !


----------



## krumm

*Surfactants*

Shortly may be recieving some 400mcg blotters and would like advice on the buccal/sublingual use of surfactants to aid absorbtion.  Am I right in thinking that the sodium lauryl sulphate in toothpaste would suffice?

I'm concerned because SLS seems to be anionic, and elsewhere in the thread it was mentioned that a nonionic surfactant was needed.

I am planning to spread a small amount of toothpaste between my gum and lip and hold the blotter there for 20-30minutes.

Any input would be greatly welcome.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Really, you can put the blotter in your upper gum or sublingual, for me it works !


----------



## boxednirvana

HofmannBlotter said:


> Really, you can put the blotter in your upper gum or sublingual, for me it works !



Oh I've gotten effects from both upper gum and sublingual blotter but _nothing_ like plugging it.  I can see why people call this a 'toy' if the only ROA they've tried is oral.  My best attempts with oral dosing were with lecithin, basically letting about 10 lecithin granules melt in my mouth and putting the blotter in the general area.  If oral is the only way you're going to dose this one, use lecithin.  

Cram it up the poop chute.  It's the only way to fly. %)


----------



## jesuskristus

Hello there! My first post. Don't kill me.

I have a bunch of 350ug blotters. I tried one sublingually - put it under my tongue for 15 minutes, then swallowed a shit load of saliva + the blotter. Hardly happened anything until I smoked a spliff. After an additional 3-4 spliffs I had a very nice time for perhaps 6-8 hours, but I felt a bit disappointed. This was about 3 weeks ago.

On saturday I will go ahead with 700ug on the same kind of blotters. I don't own any lab related equipment what so ever so I am seeking the best way to admin this sublingually/orally. My plan is to first brush my teeth until it hurts, giving the gum a bit of a rash I guess. Then, dripping a bit of alcohol (vodka/gin/jaeger/whatever) on the blotters and put them between the gum and cheek. 

What do you think about this? Good idea? If no better ideas regarding ROA appear before saturday noon I will go ahead with this and share with you my findings.

Edit: I see a lot of people mentioning rectal admin. Would this work well with blotters? Just shoving them up there? In that case, I'm in (hehe).


----------



## skillet

But you're Jesus, we have to kill you 

Bleeding gums sound great, I'd put it in the other end, but like I said before, it might help to do a little extraction:



			
				Me said:
			
		

> I'd put it in a small vial with a mL or so of hot water and poke it around with something until it (hopefully) disintegrates, or you could cut it into small pieces first. Then suck the water and paper bits into a syringe and squirt that in there. I think it'll be absorbed much better that way.


----------



## atara

If you bought the blotter from a vendor it probably was not dosed "as advertised".


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## jesuskristus

atara: I'm not sure how to interpret that.. 

skillet: "in there" refers to your bum? O_O


----------



## any major dude

unless you have a second rectum somewhere, yes, in the bum


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## jesuskristus

^ok... Well, pardon my many questions, but I've never tried this. How far up would it need to go?


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## lulzkiller

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/247323-Anal-Administration-(Eneme-Plugging)-A-Complete-Guide


----------



## jesuskristus

^ First of, why isn't that guide split up, one for MDMA and one for opiates? Would be a bit easier to read.. Also, which of the cases would be apply to 25C-NBOMe?

Where would one usually find a syringe? I'm living in Sweden and can't really think of any stores selling that kind of thing. I guess that very correct measuring wouldn't matter since I'm extracting the compound from blotters of at least semi-known strength. Maybe from some hobby store.. Like.. Those things you can have glue in.. Ideas regardning this?


----------



## skillet

Try a pharmacy for the syringe, I guess you can say you want it to feed little kittens or something like that, if they ask. Or maybe a pet shop? I don't really know.

Yeah sounds like you can get them from a pharmacy, https://www.flashback.org/t491142

You can get away with much smaller volumes than in that guide. Try to keep it to a mL or less, then you don't have to lie on your side for 30 min so it doesn't leak out, you can just get up straight away. And smaller syringes are easier to insert, I think 10 or 20mL would be a bit of a stretch 

Measuring doesn't matter, you can just go by number of blotters. Though I'm not sure how variable the dosages are on them...


----------



## jesuskristus

^I'm gay so the size wouldn't be a problem. Sometimes I'm just too tired/stupid, ofc flashback holds the answers! Thanks for the help guys, I'll be back with a report


----------



## lulzkiller

I'm from Denmark and I bought 100 1cc, long, thin syringes from some random Danish website that supplies stuff like this to individuals and companies. I use them for nasal administration of 25C, though. You could go for the big 50cc syringes if that's what floats your boat.


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## skillet

You ever go shroom hunting lulz? I'm trying to find a spot, PM me when you get to bluelighter if you can help.

Eh, looks like that might take a while  I'll start a thread.


----------



## Cyanoide

Well I got tired of this whole blotter thing and ordered 25C HcL. I'm going to make a solution with distilled water and alcohol (ratio 1:1). The only thing I'm a bit unsure of is, is the strength of the solution. I'm going to go for intranasal administration with a 1 ml syringe. I think 400µg/1ml will be quite good. Then I'll squirt/snort 0,5 ml (200µg) into each nostril to reach the desired dose. Snorting it in doses of 0,5 ml at least shouldn't shove it straight down the throat but keep it in the nose.


----------



## lulzkiller

Just be advised that 40-50% alcohol is pretty unpleasant to insufflate. I did 0,2 mL in each nostril. Shit sucked, if only slightly


----------



## jesuskristus

Assume the following: someone will soak 2 blotters of totally 700ug in 40% vodka and shove it up his/her arse. What can be expected?


----------



## skillet

Burning pain, followed by probably fairly intense tripping  Dilute it to <20%, preferably 10 and it shouldn't burn much.


----------



## jesuskristus

Sounds fair  This might be a very convenient way of consuming the blotters without a lot of work extracting the compound etc. Liftoff is sheduled to 3pm GMT+1. Can barely wait.

Edit: how far up should I shove it? O_O

Edit again: for how long would one need to keep it up there? I can imagine the body wanting to get rid of it..


----------



## skillet

Stick it all the way up, the whole barrel of the syringe. Might be a good idea to poop first, if it's been a while. You might feel like you need to poop again afterwards, but if the volume is small there will be nothing to get rid of. Try and hold it in anyway, it shouldn't last long. I think alcohol makes that feeling worse, I don't remember it from plugging MDA or 25B in water, though it's possible the compound itself will cause it from acting on 5-HT2 receptors in the colon, I'm not sure.


----------



## jesuskristus

We're a bit late.. Lift off has been pushed forward an hour or so. The problem is I couldn't find a syringe so I'll just have to do it "manually", hehe. Like, drip a little alcohol on the blotters and push em up. Or would buccal admin perhaps be better, like I discussed earlier in the thread? Like, brushing the gum really hard, then put alcohol soaked blotters between gum and cheek? Shit I'm confused O_O


----------



## jesuskristus

We have lift off! My keyboard is fucking amazing  hahaha woooo! 700ug blotter + a little gin, buccal. One hour and 20 minutes have past. This is +++.


----------



## boxednirvana

assid ftw!


----------



## Mitchi

I tried my 25C on Friday but I under-dosed and only got threshold effects  Do you think I will have to wait the 2 weeks before using again or could I skip a week?


----------



## jesuskristus

Mitchi said:


> I tried my 25C on Friday but I under-dosed and only got threshold effects  Do you think I will have to wait the 2 weeks before using again or could I skip a week?



ROA and dosage? Just out of curiosity


----------



## Mitchi

250 micrograms, intranasal. The drop might not have made it all the way through, IDK... 
Also diluted in Gin


----------



## Bartholomeus

At first, i´d like to say hello to the BL forum. I´m new here and my english is not the best at all so i ask for pardon for errors in advance. 

So i want to tell about my experience with the 25c-NMBOe blotters. I´ve enough experience with LSD and a lot of PEA from the RC-market, an so i thought about taking 2 blotters with 350µg, each. After all i was not really satisfied, cause the ROA was sublingual and i tried not to swallow any of the saliva. But i only had have (like a lot here user) only some threshold up to no effects. This made me think about other ROA and so i came here.

I just want to know if some plugged 25c-N... and had a real trip which was all at all a good one and might compare it to nasal. I´ve tried this way a once before (my girlfriend couldn´t belive what i was doing, and was a little bit... disgustingly & surprised) but only with MXE, so i´m interested in expereinces - also some other users might be disgustingly & surprised, too - but i think here, it´s a good way of application. 

I know i might have read the complete thread, but i hope it´s o.k for me as a newbie to ask a question.
I guess 25C-NMBOe is a real nice RC and has more to offer than my disappointing experience. 
Via nose is also a way to go, but in this case the dosing and physical problems might be worse (surface and dripping before accommodation) and so i wrote this question.


Kindly Bart

EDIT:
Ups i forgot, that i also want to know an answer, because i´ve got more freebase and want to know what should/could/will be my next type of processing for later experiences.
THX


----------



## skillet

Hey,

Plugging works well, and is really easy. For the freebase, I'd dissolve it in a little vinegar (say 1 drop per mg, though it might take a bit more, I've never tried it) then dilute to an appropriate volume with water, or 20% alcohol if you want to store it for some time.

Not reading the whole thread is excusable, i think, it's huge  You might want to read the last couple of pages though, or a few random pages.

Mitchi, a couple of people have said 2 weeks, I think. I'm kind of skeptical that it should be different from any other 2C/DOX though, if you have enough of the stuff and are willing it would be nice to have that verified...


----------



## Mitchi

Skillet: O, i see. I thought it was a fact. 
Right now I'm trying to find a good dose, after that I might try to find out how the tolerance is, I'll make sure to post it in this thread if I do 

I noticed that my jaw was tightening, which is something I have never tried on a psych (or even on amphetamine)


----------



## skyline142

I've been all over this thread for a while. Well, my 4 experiences with this substance has been quite fascinating. I am very very intrigued by it. There is quite a bit of a stimulating rush to it. I have a want to do things on it, very much so compared to other psychedelics. However, not as overpowering as my DOM experience. Anyway, a few questions. Has there been much talk of vasoconstriction? I really havent noticed much of any, but I just want to take any precautions. Secondly, would taking this with MDMA be a bad combo? Psychedelics always have brought a tiny bit of fear, maybe a fear of the unknown. Or maybe because I have thought I had died and definitely met God a few times. Either way, MDMA always brings out that calm, inner peace. 

I was hoping a nice 75-100mg dose of MDMA and 650ug of 25C-nBOME (intranasally) would be perfect. I feel like I could really understand what this substance wants me to know, backed by that calmness of MDMA. Should this be cautioned? I always ensure proper doses. Thoughts would be appreciated


----------



## IamMe90

I haven't read the entirety of the thread or even the last few pages to make sure this information hasn't already been posted but I figure it can't hurt to post it just in case. 

Someone from a very well-known RC community accidentally ingested 30mg nasally of 25c-nbome and, while experiencing an excruciatingly intense trip, was for all intents and purposes, physically fine. I thought that dosage/safety information could be valuable. That being said, don't go snorting 30mg of this stuff, kids... but it looks like there is potential for a relatively low risk-level, which assuages some of my fears that these nbomes will get media attention from idiots abusing them.


----------



## SpecialK_

Has anyone any pre-wrote guides on how to get this prepared for a nasal spray bottle? Think I'm going to follow this method as it seems to be effective.


----------



## psood0nym

^Don't use a nasal spray bottle. There's no way to get a consistent volume/dose per squeeze.  Buy insulin syringes (at a pharmacy or online) and cut off the needle with a wire cutter for nasal administration (or see an alternative way to cut the cap, linked to below). Dissolve the 25C in a known quantity so that one dose is 10 insulin units or so (small enough that the dose won't drip down your throat), and use it for liquid nasal dosing. The volume is right on the barrel (100 units in a 1cc syringe), so it couldn't be easier.  I described how I did this in a little more detail earlier in the thread,here.


----------



## jamaica0535

Notes on this compound. 

Much more readily soluble in lipids or alcohols than water, but still water soluble enough to be used. 
Use distilled water, we feel that tap water probably degrades it. Distilled seems to work fine though. 
Metered nasal mist bottles = perfect. they administer .1ml per pump most of the time but you can check it on a scale 1g=1ml. a 200ug/spray seems pretty appropriate. 
First alerts are quick, and it builds very gradually from there, watch yourself though... this one will sneak up on you if you keep spraying it up your nose. Its kind of subtle like that. Someone could pick up a bottle of nasal spray and with 400ug or less they probably wouldn't even think they were on drugs. But they would be smiling, and in a really positive mood, maybe go out and do something. 
No apparent comedown.
No suppression in appetite.
Tactile response is in my opinions on par with mdma. 
Our faces hurt from smiling all night. 
Sleep comes easy. 


Also psoodonym, dont get the squeeze bottles, get the ones with a pump. You can fill them full of water, put it on a scale and watch it go down .1g every single time, and because .1g=.1ml it means that 25g/ml of distilled water will get around 250 sprays give or take 10 in either direction. 50mg comes out to 200ug a spray in 25ml of water.

If using a nasal spray, consider adding a minimal amount of ever-clear. Its very soluble in alcohols. It also has the decent aspect of you feeling a very dilute alcohol solution when breathing through your nose that lets you know that the thing actually sprayed. Just like a ml in 25 or. 

They are astoundingly accurate. And you get a nice atomized mist.


----------



## sekio

My vial of 25c and Tween has single-celled life in it now. White floaty gooey shit. Bad news bears.

Preservatives are needed, I think.


----------



## MattPsy

You can probably recover it through mild basification, followed by heavy dilution with IPA and then salting it out by adding NaCl (table salt). Two distinct layers should form, as the IPA will be much less soluble in the now heavily salted water. The prokaryotic fraction (or possibly eukaryotic if they are fancy single celled life!) should stay in the aqueous layer,and the 25C should migrate to the IPA layer, which will be the top layer.

Maybe try sodium benzoate as preservative. It's easy to get.


----------



## sekio

Yes, but there's still Tween left, and I have no idea what the bacteria/fungus has produced or even if it has eaten the 25c.
Happy trails, my single celled friends.

Luckily my bottle of 25d is unspoilt, as is my dry powder 25e.


----------



## MattPsy

The tween probably would migrate to the IPA layer too IMO. But yeah, you'll have their dirty excretion products all through your solution now. What, you don't like a little lactate or ethanol with your 25C? Heh. Ok, so you might get some phospholipids and nucleic acids and shit too


----------



## Mitchi

Delete


----------



## Mitchi

skyline142 said:


> I've been all over this thread for a while. Well, my 4 experiences with this substance has been quite fascinating. I am very very intrigued by it. There is quite a bit of a stimulating rush to it. I have a want to do things on it, very much so compared to other psychedelics. However, not as overpowering as my DOM experience. Anyway, a few questions. Has there been much talk of vasoconstriction? I really havent noticed much of any, but I just want to take any precautions. Secondly, would taking this with MDMA be a bad combo? Psychedelics always have brought a tiny bit of fear, maybe a fear of the unknown. Or maybe because I have thought I had died and definitely met God a few times. Either way, MDMA always brings out that calm, inner peace.
> 
> I was hoping a nice 75-100mg dose of MDMA and 650ug of 25C-nBOME (intranasally) would be perfect. I feel like I could really understand what this substance wants me to know, backed by that calmness of MDMA. Should this be cautioned? I always ensure proper doses. Thoughts would be appreciated



I took 40 mg. MDMA four hours after dose. I did not feel any problems. Got quite warm though, which was nice because the 25C made me feel cold


----------



## reformer

*Thoughts of "Peak X" influencing your Set = Bleh*



MattPsy said:


> The tween probably would migrate to the IPA layer too IMO.



It's also probable that the tween would form an intermediate emulsion layer and prevent the IPA from salting out from the aqueous phase, unless clarification by centrifugation was a possibility.



MattPsy said:


> you'll have their dirty excretion products all through your solution ... lactate ... ethanol ... phospholipids ... nucleic acids and shit ... with your 25C



Meh. I'd toss the filmy soup in the bin.

I realize it's exceedingly unlikely, but there is a chance of a sorta "Peak X"-like species being produced from fermentation of 5HT agonist precursors (_ala_ the 1989 tryptophan supplement user deaths and the resulting FDA ban on tryptophan). 

Sure those were Trypts and these are Phens, but who would want to be ruminating on whether that horrendous infection had manifested in his container while in the middle of a face plastering psychedelic experience? Ugh. Is that temperature fluctuation actually from the 25C or is it emanating from the nascent eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome induced by the fermentation products of some undefined little cruddy buggers? 

Just ditch it dude. Take the loss and buy anew... then sterile filter followed by dividing into aliquots into sterile containers and freezing under conditions inhospitable to microbial growth.


----------



## sekio

I'm not making a fuss over ~4mg of compound. It's been confined to a little glass tube now where it can sit as a novelty until I can get a GC/MS 
The only "peak X" sort of effects I would be concerned about would be debenzylation or O-demthylation, neither of which are particularly desirable.


----------



## SpecialK_

So, while it might be an odd question, are there any known side 'negative/neutral' side effects with this stuff that people should be aware of before using? In comparison to other psychedelics like LSD/Psilocybin.


----------



## any major dude

Well being that this is entirely new in the human experience, i don't think anyone can say with certainty what type of longer term side effects there would be, but i doubt it would be worse than 2c-x, and almost undoubtedly safer than bromo-DFLY.  In the short term the only things i've noticed have been increased heart rate (which happens to some degree with most psychedelics) and increased blood pressure (which is not unexpected with such a potent 5-HT agonist)


----------



## SpecialK_

That's what I expected, just wanted to make sure before I became the guinea big. Is distilled water okay for the HCL? Anyone got any recommended mg/ml ratio for using up my nose? 

Can't wait to try this one!


----------



## psood0nym

SpecialK_ said:


> Is distilled water okay for the HCL? Anyone got any recommended mg/ml ratio for using up my nose?


 Yes, it's fine/see my last post on the previous page.


----------



## Karcinogenious

If I dissolve 20mg of '25C' in 10ml of distilled water will '10 units (on an insulin syringe) = 200mcg?' ...I have done the math a few times but I really don't trust myself enough..is this correct? and also I don't want to add alcohol to the solution if it isnt necessary, if I use sterile distilled water would it be fine to just store it as a liquid or should I freeze it for long term storage (as to prevent bacterial bullshit)?


----------



## IamMe90

Karcinogenious said:


> If I dissolve 20mg of '25C' in 10ml of distilled water will '10 units (on an insulin syringe) = 200mcg?' ...I have done the math a few times but I really don't trust myself enough..is this correct? and also I don't want to add alcohol to the solution if it isnt necessary, if I use sterile distilled water would it be fine to just store it as a liquid or should I freeze it for long term storage (as to prevent bacterial bullshit)?



IMPORTANT PLEASE READ make sure what size your insulin syringe is before doing this math as there are both .5mL and 1mL insulin syringes that I have used myself as a diabetic, both are fairly common and depend on the size of the needle (so they are prescribed to different body types). 

if your syringe is 1mL, 10 units = 1/10 of the syringe, which is .1mL, your solution is 2mg/mL, your amount will be 200mcg. Your amount will be 100mcg if using a .5mL syringe.


----------



## Karcinogenious

I dont think this is either a .5ml or 1ml..I'll describe it as best as I can..it says 3/10cc at the bottom (I'm pretty sure 1cc=1ml) and it has 30 units down the length of it..so I assumed that 10 units would be 1/10 of a 1cc which is 1/10 of a mL right, so that would be work out to be 200mcg of solution based on what I dissolved.  Here's the syringe, I tried to find it online http://www.allegromedical.com/syringes-c570/insulin-syringe-3-10cc-30g-x-5-16-p549029.html so you can see what I am talking about.  But if 10 units on the syringe is equal to 1/10 of 1cc(or mL), and 20mg of substance is dissolved in 10ml, than 10 units of that solution should equal 200mcg in solution right?...you really have me concerned that my measurements are off now and I wanna be sure that these 10 units = 200mcg...thanks for the help


----------



## Karcinogenious

I just wanna say common sense is telling me I am right on this, but I am very unfamiliar with insulin syringes and just wanted to be sure about my math...


----------



## psood0nym

The 3/10 cc just means three tenths of a cubic centimeter, which, yes, means three tenths of a milliliter. 100 insulin units = 1 cc = 1 mL. You bought syringes with 0.3 mL volume in them instead of 0.5 or 1.0 is all.

Like one of these guys? (pictured on the bottom)





Better to be sure about these things before taking the plunge.


----------



## IamMe90

Karcinogenious said:


> I dont think this is either a .5ml or 1ml..I'll describe it as best as I can..it says 3/10cc at the bottom (I'm pretty sure 1cc=1ml) and it has 30 units down the length of it..so I assumed that 10 units would be 1/10 of a 1cc which is 1/10 of a mL right, so that would be work out to be 200mcg of solution based on what I dissolved.  Here's the syringe, I tried to find it online http://www.allegromedical.com/syringes-c570/insulin-syringe-3-10cc-30g-x-5-16-p549029.html so you can see what I am talking about.  But if 10 units on the syringe is equal to 1/10 of 1cc(or mL), and 20mg of substance is dissolved in 10ml, than 10 units of that solution should equal 200mcg in solution right?...you really have me concerned that my measurements are off now and I wanna be sure that these 10 units = 200mcg...thanks for the help



You are correct, my apologies as it's been about 6 years since I've used a 3/10cc insulin syringe and I forgot that they existed (they're mostly for children... when you get bigger, you need more than 30 units sometimes and the needle needs to penetrate the fat more I believe) 

But yes, your math is correct, so bottoms up and I hope you enjoy your experience!


----------



## Karcinogenious

Cool thanks for the confirmation on that, I was a little iffy about it...and I didn't buy them or anything, they were given to me and I don't really like shoot drugs (it seems difficult to do with guys even if I did lol, theyre pretty pathetic...) but they are the perfect thing to measure out intranasal doses...I am gonna start at 500mcg and then try 1mg dose a week or so later to try and reduce tolerance...I'll post how it goes for sure....

I really want to say thanks, I have been on a lot of forums and bluelight kicks ass, I have been snooping on here for years and I can say that some forums just have significantly more stupid people and you guys on here 1)know your shit 2)are helpful 3)are people I would actually hang out with lol...thanks for the help, I am sure I will post again soon too..glad to be a part of this network


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## Karcinogenious

I don't want to keep bothering you guys but I am still wondering about how to store this shit..I dont trust my self (or my scale) to accurately divide up the 20mg..I feel more comfortable just taking my premeasured 20mg and dumping it straight in solution..but what about storage after that, should I just throw it in the fridge(I dont want shit growin in it)? I am confused about how much alcohol to add and what kind, they just banned high proof alcohol in my fuck nut state so I am stuck with lower proof alcohols as an option (I think they still sell everclear but its 75.5% now)....If I make the solution with 20% everclear 80% distilled water would that be sufficient for long-term storage as a liquid of 25C, or RCs in gneral for that matter?  or is there a better ratio and alcohol I should fuck with...this is my last question I promise haha


----------



## SpecialK_

Try adding an extra weight to your scales without tareing it. Remember how much it weighs, take it off, add the 25c, put it back on, subtract the original weight from it and there you go! For some scales that aren't as sensitive at low mg doses this is an excellent way to work out the amount, however I wouldn't do this with a scale that was less than 0.001 in this case.


----------



## Karcinogenious

Yeah if I had a scale that sensitive I might do that but I am already making a liquid solution so I can really be exact and I guess I rambled a little in the last post but my main question was, in a liquid solution kept away from light and refrigerated how long is the shelf life on 25C? It should be similar to 2C-C right, well maybe not, but I am sure someone has experience with saving solutions made up with this compound or at least something similar..whats the best way to save it?


----------



## Karcinogenious

And also I think SpecialK_ asked for a recommendation on the ratio for a solution that's done nasally...
What I'm thinking after reading all 37 pages of this thread:

20mg (25C) in 10ml (h20/alc)
............................

units | mcg (of 25C)
  0.5 = 10
  5 = 100
  10 = 200
  25 = 500

*unit = 1/10ml
...thats just what I did to simplify things, I dont know if its just me, but fucking with numbers that tiny can be hard to follow so I just like to write it all out so I can visualize it..but I guess do whatever works for you, this shit is definitely worthy of respect tho and should be carefully measured


----------



## Karcinogenious

So no one knows about storage of this shit? I still dont know if alcohol is crucial, if its fridged would it even matter if it was just water solution with out alcphol in it, wouldn't the temp keep growth pretty much gone?


----------



## skillet

Depends how long you want to store it, for more than a week or two I wouldn't count on the fridge, bacteria can still grow pretty fast in there. If you don't want to use alcohol you could probably pasteurise it by putting the vial in a pan of boiling water for a few minutes after you make the solution, and every time you use it.


----------



## Karcinogenious

Right, I was planning on doing that before I make up the solution but don't you think once 25c is in the solution heating up that much might cause it to break down?...I think I'm gonna preboil water to keep it low on the bacteria side in the beginning and use 8cc water, 2cc everclear/..is that enough to keep germs out for a couple months..Im gonna save it for atleast that long probably longer


----------



## skillet

Boiling it won't hurt the compound. And yeah, I think 20% alcohol is enough to stop anything growing.


----------



## SpecialK_

Anyone able to comment on insufflated doses? I want a nice trip is 500ug too much or the right amount, as I'm seeing lots of different answers. How fast is the onset this way?


----------



## jamaica0535

SpecialK_ said:


> Anyone able to comment on insufflated doses? I want a nice trip is 500ug too much or the right amount, as I'm seeing lots of different answers. How fast is the onset this way?



We dilute to 200ug/spray, metered spray bottles.

Explored dosages that may have exceeded 2mg in a night. We usually start with 2-3, some people seem sensitive to it, the vast majority find the 400-600 range to be quite nice. 600ug was described to me as a sort of glass of scotch psychedelic. 

Remember to shake the nasal spray before use, I forgot to and it has thus far been a pretty gentle  psychedelic, but having explored up to like 2mg.... whatever settled in that bottle was way more than I expected. I still didn't feel at all worried about my well being, got to ride in a car and see the city lights with the windows down. Really enjoyable compound though. 

I have done a lot of drugs.... going beyond being one of my favorite psychedelics it has become one of the most worthwhile drugs I have ever taken. It inspires in me a desire to go out and do stuff, clean my room that needs to be cleaned and generally eliminates any semblance of apathy in my mood. As far as I have noticed, the side effects I get from this are far less than many of the prescription medications I have taken. Side effects seem less than alcohol. As inebriating as caffeine, easier on the body in a ug/mg comparison of it with caffeine. Seems to act as a social lubricant, tactile response is awesome,  it hasn't shown significant tolerance increase taken one day after the next after the next after the next that any of us have been able to see. 

I consider it to be the perfect entactogen.  Wonderful potential for a therapeutic tool. It has all the psychedelia of acid without overpowering visuals or mindfuck, a lot of the social positives of mdma without the forceful euphoria, this one is a lot more subtle but it has a wonderful depth and a world of potential.  

my advice though, 200-250/spray in a nasal spray with 2-3 being very much in a different frame of mind. It most definitely does not feel like your fucked up like most drugs do. Its kind of a strange being aware of it hitting the brain and the actions that follow. 400-600 is a good picture of this one, at least enough of a "safe" amount for a normal person to know very much if there is a desire to take more or not. The 250ug spray makes itself known with 1, 500ug is a nice place but nothing mindblowing. But you want to be able to titrate it there. 

The comeup is tricky on this one, you get that sensation of it hitting your brain after like 10 minutes and you think that your not getting higher and do more. and then in 30 minutes you realize that it has a comeup about 30 minutes long and then your tripping face. So I would say Onset of 5-10 minutes. BUILDS FOR NEXT 30-60 MINUTES, and then plateaus... After an hour or so we just dose as comfortable. You get a feel for it.... Stop at least 3 hours before you desire sleep, maybe more if you have trouble sleeping.  Its one of the least stimulating stimulants I have ever encountered. 

Wear gloves when handling, with compounds where a mg will make you trip hard, solutions holding far more or even just the powder in contact with skin being as lipid soluble as it is will likely be absorbed though the skin, enough to demand the use of gloves. When your talking about sub milligrams with compounds that are potentially transdermal care must be taken to avoid accidental consumption without thinking about it.


----------



## ToxicFerret

Hey there so I have some blotter with 400 micrograms of 25c-NBOMe per tab. This is 'ion-exchange blotter' but as it seems the community has found the NBOMes to be not very bioavailable sublingually I'd like to hear any ideas for what to do with this stuff. I'd like to make a solution and put it into a nasal spray bottle, but I'm looking for some advice on how to ensure I have i all extracted without ending up with so goddamn much solvent that the potency per spray is super low. Any ideas? Would distilled water be enough for extraction? Or should I go for some IPA and evap, then make a solution with the remaining substance?


----------



## IamMe90

jamaica0535 said:


> We dilute to 200ug/spray, metered spray bottles.
> 
> Explored dosages that may have exceeded 2mg in a night. We usually start with 2-3, some people seem sensitive to it, the vast majority find the 400-600 range to be quite nice. 600ug was described to me as a sort of glass of scotch psychedelic.
> 
> Remember to shake the nasal spray before use, I forgot to and it has thus far been a pretty gentle  psychedelic, but having explored up to like 2mg.... whatever settled in that bottle was way more than I expected. I still didn't feel at all worried about my well being, got to ride in a car and see the city lights with the windows down. Really enjoyable compound though.
> 
> I have done a lot of drugs.... going beyond being one of my favorite psychedelics it has become one of the most worthwhile drugs I have ever taken. It inspires in me a desire to go out and do stuff, clean my room that needs to be cleaned and generally eliminates any semblance of apathy in my mood. As far as I have noticed, the side effects I get from this are far less than many of the prescription medications I have taken. Side effects seem less than alcohol. As inebriating as caffeine, easier on the body in a ug/mg comparison of it with caffeine. Seems to act as a social lubricant, tactile response is awesome,  it hasn't shown significant tolerance increase taken one day after the next after the next after the next that any of us have been able to see.
> 
> I consider it to be the perfect entactogen.  Wonderful potential for a therapeutic tool. It has all the psychedelia of acid without overpowering visuals or mindfuck, a lot of the social positives of mdma without the forceful euphoria, this one is a lot more subtle but it has a wonderful depth and a world of potential.
> 
> my advice though, 200-250/spray in a nasal spray with 2-3 being very much in a different frame of mind. It most definitely does not feel like your fucked up like most drugs do. Its kind of a strange being aware of it hitting the brain and the actions that follow. 400-600 is a good picture of this one, at least enough of a "safe" amount for a normal person to know very much if there is a desire to take more or not. The 250ug spray makes itself known with 1, 500ug is a nice place but nothing mindblowing. But you want to be able to titrate it there.
> 
> The comeup is tricky on this one, you get that sensation of it hitting your brain after like 10 minutes and you think that your not getting higher and do more. and then in 30 minutes you realize that it has a comeup about 30 minutes long and then your tripping face. So I would say Onset of 5-10 minutes. BUILDS FOR NEXT 30-60 MINUTES, and then plateaus... After an hour or so we just dose as comfortable. You get a feel for it.... Stop at least 3 hours before you desire sleep, maybe more if you have trouble sleeping.  Its one of the least stimulating stimulants I have ever encountered.
> 
> Wear gloves when handling, with compounds where a mg will make you trip hard, solutions holding far more or even just the powder in contact with skin being as lipid soluble as it is will likely be absorbed though the skin, enough to demand the use of gloves. When your talking about sub milligrams with compounds that are potentially transdermal care must be taken to avoid accidental consumption without thinking about it.



If you are able to take 25c day after day after day with no increase in tolerance I have to question whether you are either lying, have the wrong compound, are mistaken, or are a superhuman freak. I'm not exaggerating since every report seems to affirm that this chemical and other nbomes build tolerance extremely fast.


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## JBrandon

I'm curious about that daily use as well. Almost every report has indicated an almost overnight tolerance on par or greater than LSD...?


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## Karcinogenious

He definitely has a tolerance built up to it, he said: "1,500ug is a nice place but nothing mind-blowing" ....from everything else I read 1mg/1000mcg is intense tripping fuckery, in another report doubling the dose from 500mcg to 1000mcg the following day led to a significantly stronger trip than the previous day.  I think if you did 500mcg one day, 1000mcg the next, 2000mcg the day after, like he is saying, it would be strong but not as crazy as insufflating 2000mcg w/ no tolerance...but either way this kind of frequency of use probably isn't advisable, with any psychedelic..it just takes away the magic and wastes a lot of substance trying to keep up with your tolerance...I used to dose acid like 2 to 3 times a week for a long time and really found it be quite a waste, these nbome compounds seem very similar in tolerance to cid and probably should be treated the same...1 to 2 weeks is a good break time for this kinda thing, don't you think


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## Ekstasis-//7

I have some questions regarding insuflating...

1) If I put my alcohol/water, liquid dose onto a plate, would using a straw to suck it up (insufflate) work okay or do I really need to buy a nose spray bottle? I'm only looking to put around 0.3ml up each nostril.

2) The solution is 37% ethanol. If I dilute it 50/50 with distilled water I'll have 18.5% ethanol water and be looking at insufflating 0.6mL (0.3mL up each nostril) to reach the required dosage. I don't want it to burn too much up the nose from the alcohol but I also don't want too much liquid total so it's just wasted by dripping down into the throat. Does this strength solution sound okay or should I still dilute further?

3) Forgive me if this has already been covered but I want to know if this has poor redosing properties like most 2C-x compounds. Basically if I wait 1hr after initial dosing and find it's not visual and strong enough will redosing increase the strength/visuals or just the duration?


----------



## Rorthron

Ekstasis-//7 said:


> I have some questions regarding insuflating...
> 
> 1) If I put my alcohol/water, liquid dose onto a plate, would using a straw to suck it up (insufflate) work okay or do I really need to buy a nose spray bottle? I'm only looking to put around 0.3ml up each nostril.



You do not need a spray bottle, but with a straw you will probably have a huge back drip that goes into your stomach and is innefective. I use a eyedropper myself. 4 drops in each nostril is more than enough. 8 drops are approximately to 0.5 ml (in my eyedropper). More than that and you will have a drip




Ekstasis-//7 said:


> 2) The solution is 37% ethanol. If I dilute it 50/50 with distilled water I'll have 18.5% ethanol water and be looking at insufflating 0.6mL (0.3mL up each nostril) to reach the required dosage. I don't want it to burn too much up the nose from the alcohol but I also don't want too much liquid total so it's just wasted by dripping down into the throat. Does this strength solution sound okay or should I still dilute further?



never used ethanol, but from what I've heard, more than 5% is a bit too much. Rather have it dissolved in acetic acid and dilute it in plain water



Ekstasis-//7 said:


> 3) Forgive me if this has already been covered but I want to know if this has poor redosing properties like most 2C-x compounds. Basically if I wait 1hr after initial dosing and find it's not visual and strong enough will redosing increase the strength/visuals or just the duration?



Have done it only once and have perceived both, that is, stronger visuals and a longer experience, but I remember reading somewhere that this was not the case for everyone.


----------



## Ekstasis-//7

Thanks for all the help Rorthron.
Since I already have it in 37% ethanol and diluting it to 5% ethanol would make too much liquid (ie drip down the throat and not work) I'll need to evaporate some anyway. While I'm at it rather than fiddling about with dripping liquid in the nose and risking it going down the throat I think I may as well just evaporate the whole dosage to powder. Maybe on a plate covering a pot of boiling water. Then scrape up the dry powder with a blade and voila, ready to use with a straw in the same way that any kind of nose candy should be.


----------



## lysergication

> Should be quite stable. No chiral carbons, no alkene linkages, and no obvious points of instability (debenzylation happens in the presence of reducing agents, e.g. formate, not oxidizing agents, e.g. hypochlorite; reducing agents are rare in an atmosphere as corrosive as ours).



I've already read in this thread (^^) that 25C-NBOMe should be quite stable but about what kind of stability are we talking ? lifetime stability ? like the 2C-X ? even when in solution (40% ethanol, @ -5°C) ?


----------



## SpecialK_

SpecialK_ said:


> Anyone able to comment on insufflated doses? I want a nice trip is 500ug too much or the right amount, as I'm seeing lots of different answers. How fast is the onset this way?



Quoting my own post as I've only really had one answer and I'm planning to dose very soon, please answer as soon as you read if you can provide input. How would 500ug be sublinguially - not enough? It would just probably be easier to dose that way, but insufflated seems to be the way to go.


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## Karcinogenious

I am doing that for my first time but nasally not sublingually...from reading this entire thread over the course of a few hours the other night I can tell you its fine man, 350 seems fun but not quite visual enough, 500 seems perfect, very visual and still able to do stuff...1mg and up is pretty intense unless you have a good tolerance built up and/or are used to the compound


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## Smokey McPot

I just received 100 mg of 25c-NBOMe as well as 100 mg of 25i-NBOMe. The 25c seems to take up about 3 times as much space volumetrically then the 25i. Is this normal? Is the 25c usually big and fluffy compared to the 25i or could my vendor have screwed up? I'm not touching either till my mg scale arrives but both vials seem to be labeled pretty accurately with one saying 102mg and the other says 103~104mg which makes me think that the vendor has measured them quite accurately but I've learned not to rely that much on vendors when it comes to such powerful chemicals.


----------



## SpecialK_

Alright, tomorrow I'll finally be making my 25c doseable. Final few questions:

If I opted for the nose spray method, anyone in the UK recommend any particular product that I could empty out and replace with 25c? Also, how can I gauge how much ml is in each spray? This actually sounds like a reasonable method now, more precise, but I'm unsure of how to go about it properly. 

Is it possible to drop a liquid dose of the 25c into some powder that could absorb the water for easier transport? Or would this be fairly unreliable, what powders could be used for this and how much would it take? Bare in mind it will be less than 0.5ml and I don't want it to be too harmful for my nasal passages.


----------



## psood0nym

^I didn't see any indication of volume per spray in the report on pg 37 that mentioned using a metered spray bottle. He also mentioned his suspicion that the 25C was settling at the bottom of the bottle so if you don't shake it it may be more concentrated. Also, what happens if you get bubbles in the little plastic straw that the spray is drawn up into? Though "metered," I think the doses of nasal spray are probably less consistent than imagined.  What happens when the spray volume gets low and isn't being drawn up consistently anymore? The bottles were probably just designed that way because people were complaining about dumping way too much nasal spray down their throats, not because it's crucial to get exact dosing of nasal spray. At least with an insulin syringe with the needle cut off you can see exactly what volume you're getting every time any you squeeze out every last bit, granted it's not as stealthy as a spray bottle. Drops are also highly unreliable when you think about how tilting your head back and trying to count and squeeze and a consistent rate so as to get even sized drops every time you dose.  If you want a medium to put the liquid on for transport powder is a bad idea. It would be better to do a single dose on a single blotter. I suppose you could do single sugar cubes, then crush the cubes, dissolve in water, and plug the solution, too. In my opinion syringes or pipettes are easiest and most reliable way to do liquid insufflation, especially if you're considering getting the reportedly even more potent 25B-NBOMe when it comes out.  With a name like SpecialK surely you have or know someone with syringes? If not, and if you can't get them just by asking at a pharmacy (never been an issue for me), you can get them online easily enough. 

Smokey McPot: The very same salt of the same compound can vary by color and consistency based on things like how fast the crystals were formed. From what I've heard visual cues are really unreliable for IDing a compound.


----------



## SpecialK_

Don't worry syringes aren't a problem to come across. Thanks for your input, looks like I'll stick with liquid dosing! My maths is fairly bad, so I'm just wanting to make sure here, am I right in saying that if I want to make 0.3ml/500ug ratio I need to use 12ml for my 20mg? Is this too much liquid too for getting up the nose?

Thanks for those transport dosing tips, unfortunately blotter isn't suitable as I'm wanting to rail it (I know it's possible to get it out, but this would just make things more lengthy).


----------



## psood0nym

^Your math looks fine. 0.3 mL may be a little much. I'd try that volume with some water first to see if any goes down your throat before mixing up your solution.


----------



## Ekstasis-//7

Whoa okay! Now I'm starting to see what whe're on about! I just tried nasal route with great success. Previously I'd tried this drug using vaporising, subligual and oral methods and I really didn't like the effects of this drug or the side effects. This time I took up the nose 600µg (approx) and I love it! I can highly recommend this route of administration. 

When I mean approximately 600µg I mean that it was weighed and re-weighed on scales that could be off by 1-2mg then was accurately liquid measured. If the scale was off my 1mg then my dose would have been +/- 20% if the scale was off my 2mg then the my dose would have been +/- 40%. 

So here's a summary:

2-5mins - feeling something by 10mins I know I'm tripping
10mins-30mins - fair amount of anxiety pretty similar to the come up on 2C-I or 2C-E
1hr-1.25hrs - anxiety has mosty subsided and eased into a nice visual fairly relaxed trip quite similar to 2C-I or 2C-E
5hrs - well I'm still tripping now and feel quite relaxed (visuals haven't died down much).

It's been a few years since I've done 2C-C but from my memories it really seems like 25C is quite different from 2C-C in effects. From my memories 2C-C was much more sedating and relaxing in come up. It was actually quite unique in that effect from all the other 2C-x compounds I've tried or even in general most all psychedelics I've tried. Also 2C-C has a shorter duration and I feel at least at the dosages I took 2C-C at (50-100mg) that 2C-C was much more visual. Even 50mg of 2C-C and I'd get a unique real 3D eye magic, pop out effect with the visuals. Don't get me wrong though the open eye visuals on this are still good. This is no piss poor performer visually like such letdowns as 2C-B, 2C-D or proscaline.

From the 23 different RCs I've tried (a good range of the 2C-x class) I think 25C is closest in effects to 2C-I or 2C-E. I'm happy coz 2C-E and 2C-I are two of my favourite psychedellics.

---Just wanted to point out something weird that happened with dosage method... I had a the 25C in a solution of 37% ethanol. Rather than burn my nose I decided to evaporate a measured dose and snort the dry powder. I measured 2 doses out and put them on 2 separeate plates. I sat the plates on a pot of boiling water till evaporated. The plates were taken off an allowed to cool for some time. When scaped up with a blade it was actually a sticky goo not a powder! There was just the tiniest scraping and it was all goo! Strangely after just putting 1 drop of distilled water onto the plate at room temperature and then scraping with a blade to one small area. It then evaporated at room temp within a couple of minutes to a white powder I could scrape up and snort. This happened with both plates! Why is that so? I thought maybe the sticky stuff is the residue from the vodka after it's evaporated. I thought maybe the ionic bond of the 25C with the HCl is disrupted resulting in a maybe a gooey freebase? If someone could answer this I'd be really interested to know.

***update*** At the 7hr point I found the visuals quite mild and I wanted to stay awake longer so I de-dosed with another 600µg (approx) nasally. In 5-10mins things got really visual. More visual that the 1st initial dose. Somewhat comparable to 20mg of 2C-I or 16mg of 2C-E. There was some initial anxiety although less that from the first dose and then it fairly quickly subsided. It's now at the 16.5hr point since the 1st dose (and 9.5hrs since the the re-dose). Pupils still very dilated and there are still mild visuals going on. This is not like the short duration I'm familiar with from 2C-C, 2C-B & 2C-D. This duration is much more like the 2C-I, 2C-E, 2C-T-x I'm also familiar with. I feel like I'm still tripping but It's mild now, also tired and vision getting a bit blurry. I feel like I'm not too far off the return to baseline and some much needed sleep.


----------



## lysergication

thanks for your report, there's not that much reports on this one yet..really appreciated.

You'd consider that your first 650µg was less strong than 16mg of 2C-E ? Is 16mg of 2C-E a strong dose for you ?

I'm still hesitant for my first nasal dose...350µg or 500µg, considering that 16mg of 2C-E can be quite a ride for me.

You seem to find the 25C not that different from a 2C when others seem to link it more with LSD, I hope I'll find it more acid-like


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Anyone had trouble trying to dissolve 2C-C-NBOMe (25C-NBOMe) in alcohol like Vodka 40% ?


----------



## SpecialK_

I was able to get it to dissolve in distilled water without any problem whatsoever, although I did heat it gently and also left it to settle for around 24 hours.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

Does it will work If I shake the vial well ?


----------



## Mitchi

^ It will, most likely. But make sure that it IS dissolved. I mean, make sure you can see that it's dissolved completely. If you use an amber vial, you cant really be sure


----------



## atara

Chlorides don't usually dissolve well in alcohol...


----------



## tregar

I found the combination of 200mg mescaline hcl + 350ug of HPBCD complexed 25i-nbome to be exactly like a 175ug acid trip, except even more visual, more colorful & more pleasurable, same Great Humor and total mind-manifesting trip as acid, music sounds better than it even does on acid. Has anyone tried 25c-nbome with mescaline yet? I will only take the nbome's together with mescaline, it is a complete and total trip that is indistinguishable from acid when in combination, girl agrees as well.  taking 200mg of mescaline in 50mg doses spaced 1/2 hour apart completely eliminated any feelings of nausea for the both of us. 

25i-nbome + mescaline looks like this as far as affinity agonism:

5-HT2A, Alpha2c, 5-HT2B, 5-HT2C, 5-HT1A, 5-HT1E, 5-HT6, u opiate, kappa opiate, Imidazoline1, alpha2a.


----------



## HofmannBlotter

atara said:


> Chlorides don't usually dissolve well in alcohol...



Oww thanks, so what do you suggest ?


----------



## Karcinogenious

Water with a tiny bit of alcohol in it to keep out bacterial growth and shit, plain distilled water is good


----------



## lysergication

I've read that 20% of alcohol is needed to prevent bacterial growth. Does it hurt that much to snort ~0.3 ml of a 20% alcohol solution ? Would the solution be more effective with the addition of a tiny bit of soap (for absorption purpose) ?


----------



## SpecialK_

Just to confirm for anyone asking questions I dissolved 20mg into 12ml of distilled water making it 0.3ml = a dose of 500ug prepared for insufflation. Using an oral syringe to dose up my nose I've had numerous successful doses and no problems. So I recommend this amount for anyone looking to insufflate the powder but does not have good methods to measure doses.


----------



## jamaica0535

Wear gloves when handling powder or solution... That is my advice on this one.

I know of an individual that did 3 700ug blotter. Letting it sit in his mouth until the paper dissolved. Reported tripping hard, try and get more details. 

Personally though 250ug spray = fantastic mood elevator. we haven't noticed tolerance, side effects seem mostly self manifested but everything has limits. I can say that I have done at least 15 sprays over the course of a few hours to no ill effect. 

At the current moment, there is definitely some pronounced psychedelia from spilling some ethanol solution on my fingers. It wasn't a lot of liquid, but that really doesn't mean anything when you have it in a strong solution. 

All in all, 10/10 in my opinion though. 

Also nasal spray bottles are so very subtle.  

the 25c feels so very much lighter on the body compared to 25i. 1mg  of the 25I-NBOMe was more than I wanted, but 500ug was subtle. Vomited, sweating, took a shower for a couple hours to relax.


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## SpecialK_

I'm not sure about it absorbing through skin, I've spilt solution on me a few times and nothing happened - to the best of my knowledge. Although, it wasn't much at all.


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## SpecialK_

I was considering basically cutting this for my own easier dosing. Are there any relatively safe powders out there that are also soluble in water? Something that I could add to the 25c solution to a desired ratio then cook it up leaving a larger amount of powder making the dose curve less steep? Not exactly the best for harm reduction but I'd like to hear if there are any our there.


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## cannibalsnail

*Serious vasoconstriction on 25c-nbome?*

I took sublingualed doses of 25c-nbome hcl dissolved into a distilled water solution. 400mcg was held in my mouth for 20 minutes repeated 3 times (a theoretical dose of 1.2mg though based on effects the absorption rate is low). After 3-4 hours I began to experience stinging pains on the surface of my skin and "electric" ripples of pain across my skin in parts of my body that hadn't moved for a while (e.g. if I kept my arm in one position for a while then moved it I would get a pins and needle sensation across the entire surface of my skin). This repeated for most of the duration of the trip and I began to lose sensation to fingers, skin patches etc. I got pain in my feet and cramping pains in my legs. The 
vasoconstrictive effects continued after the duration of effects. 20 hours later I still feel slightly "off" in my fingers and skin.

Suffice to say I will not be using this again unless a solution is recommended. Any explanations/similar experiences?


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## SpecialK_

Trying today, I'd like to say I've a fair share of experience with psychedelics I've ticked a good few off the list; from what I'm hearing I hope this will be one I'll be taking regularly. I'll post up what I think!


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## jamaica0535

SpecialK_ said:


> Trying today, I'd like to say I've a fair share of experience with psychedelics I've ticked a good few off the list; from what I'm hearing I hope this will be one I'll be taking regularly. I'll post up what I think!



25c goes well with everything.. food, socializing, music, less stimulating than caffeine, and we have come to terms with the idea that we don't feel at all impaired by it. Conversely it makes me slightly more alert and focused, productivity is easy, body load extends as far as making tactile sensation awesome, no suppression of apetite.  Very clear, lucid, and kinda reminds me of what a nootropic stack does to my brain. We feel comfortable driving on it, I would be comfortable attending a family reunion on it. Its hard to call this compound a hallucinogen or the experience as tripping... Its a lot more subtle, undertones of psychedelia with an urge to be outward and productive, there is some color shift, minor trails, but everything sits pretty still in your frame of vision. Lots of smiling and laughing, at +2hours we determined that this compound was "nice" and stopped taking notes because we stopped caring about over-analyzing it....

tolerance on this one is kind of strange, some people have intense experiences off the first dose in amounts under 1mg. I consider 1mg pretty mild. 

I have taken this one farther than it needs to be taken to no ill effects, I speak for others that have similar opinions. Day to day tolerance is minimal and hardly noticeable. A few brave souls basically offered to be guinea pigs for a study of its tolerance build and effects of taking this drug farther than it needs to be.

<1mg is enough for most.... >3-5mg  in a night without ever getting close to feeling concerned for safety. There really doesn't seem to be a need to take it farther, 1-2mg is more my cup of tea. Beautiful compound though.... seems to be great with life. Appropriate doses of it give me a side effect profile that reads pretty damn close to the active compound that was poured out of the nasal spray bottle its dosed from. Read it if you use nasal spray..It matches up pretty close.


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## SpecialK_

Coming up on this stuff now after 500ug up the nose. It's pretty good so far, although a bit of nausea does this fade after the comeup?


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## SpecialK_

This is pretty good!  Bit of nausea etc on the come up though but nothing like 2C-E. The visuals move a lot faster than acid though, bit jittery body load.


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## sekio

No, 5-HT2a agonists do cause vasoconstriction but not to a hazardous level, and not except in overdose.

It sounds to me like a standard psychosomatic "bad trip" type reaction. Maybe try changing set and setting or taking less next time.


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## Erny

Such sensations may appear upon repeated dosing or in an overdose. This may indeed be vasoconstriction but we do not know that for certain. Sublingual route of administration isn't effective for everyone. I had little success with this ROA too. Even amounts like 2 mgs of 2C-B-NBOMe or 3 mgs of 2C-I-NBOMe never brought the effects to the desired level. Intranasal administration however is always effective. The main cause of their appearance seem to be the huge amount of chemical taken. So I suggest you simply overdosed, but due to slow rate of absorbtion and fast desensitisation of 5-HT2A didn't felt the psychedelic effects of the chemical at their full, only these side effects. 1,2 mgs of 2C-C-NBOMe taken at once is a dose huge enough to trip very hard even for me. 

It'll be better for you then to change the ROA to intranasal or i/m, but also divide the dose by 3. I believe 400 mcgs intranasally should be sufficient.


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## Venrak

^Just to clear things up, that's 400mcg.


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## skillet

They did already, 250ug per squirt in a nasal spray bottle.


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## cannibalsnail

If I am sublingualling the dose is it better to spit it out or swallow it. I know first pass metabolism destroys the original molecule but is it possible it can continue to cause side effects?


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## TheAzo

I tried this at ~450ug last night. Very smooth and comfortable mentally. It produced a bit of annoying muscle tension. Does anyone else feel like the visual effects peak 30-60 minutes after the mental effects? It sure seemed like that to me. I think a proper tripping dose would be 750ug-1mg. I very much like this stuff. 

Somehow I doubt that this stuff be able to reach the depth that we get from more traditional psychedelics, but that's okay with me. Different drugs for different purposes. This stuff does seem like it would be very suited for more 



jamaica0535 said:


> Day to day tolerance is minimal and hardly noticeable.



Sounds too good to be true ;-) 

Can anyone else comment on tolerance with this (and other NBOMe's)? Agree with that assessment? 
I certainly



SpecialK_ said:


> I was considering basically cutting this for my own easier dosing. Are there any relatively safe powders out there that are also soluble in water? Something that I could add to the 25c solution to a desired ratio then cook it up leaving a larger amount of powder making the dose curve less steep? Not exactly the best for harm reduction but I'd like to hear if there are any our there.



There are tons of safe powders that are soluble in water.

The problem is ensuring a uniform distribution of cut and 25C-NBOMe, and ensuring that it stays that way. Just dissolving it in liquid and cooking it down is not sufficient to ensure this... They would be more likely to form crystals of mostly-cut and crystals of mostly-25C-NBOMe, rather than crystals that are a mix of the two. Since these crystals could have different properties, they could end up separating via the brazil-nut effect. So you could end up with a bag with either super potent larger particles near the top and powdery cut at the bottom, or a bunch of not-very-potent larger granules, with a more potent finer powder settling the bottom (or they might distribute uniformly among eachother and it would be fine - but you have no way of ensuring this). 

I'm not comfortable with any method of cutting a powder if you would not be comfortable doing a line (or whatever dosage unit) of the uncut drug. Powders can be tretcherous to mix. A significant amount of study has gone into the science of mixing powders on a large scale, in fact. 

You should do the nasal spray thing everyone else is doing. You can buy nasal spray bottles online for like ~$2 each with free shipping. Figure out how much liquid is in each spray, and prepare a solution of the appropriate strength to provide the desired dose in that amount of liquid. 

A little ingenuity may be needed to ensure that you don't waste the bit at the bottom of the bottle - I took the sprayer/cap off of mine, and hacked it on to a much smaller vial, where the tube reached right to the bottom. Tube extensions, or simply acceptance of a small amount of waste, are also an option. You'll need a bit of ethanol in the solution in order to get the stuff to dissolve. 1:1 vodka/water or 1:2 vodka/water seemed to work for me.


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## jamaica0535

TheAzo said:


> I tried this at ~450ug last night. Very smooth and comfortable mentally. It produced a bit of annoying muscle tension. Does anyone else feel like the visual effects peak 30-60 minutes after the mental effects? It sure seemed like that to me. I think a proper tripping dose would be 750ug-1mg. I very much like this stuff.
> 
> Sounds too good to be true ;-)



We noted that with a nasal mist, first alerts are made in around 10 minutes, noting an interesting feeling in ones face....

Effects build over the next hour until it peaks. 

The tolerance seems to be involving how much you have taken, goes along the idea of acid where 2 at one time = more than 1 + 1 an hour later. But If you do it the next day, and then again the next day, and then again the next day.... We haven't been doing more than 2 or 3 sprays at 250ug to start off. It seems to build long term tolerance very very slowly. 

I have friends who have volunteered their bodies and minds to see what chronic use of it does. 

Also we have found that 700ug blotters are very much active, leave it in your cheek and gum until the paper is pretty much dissolving.

Sublingual - 700ug is very much active and pleasant. 1.4mg should be tripping moderately hard. 2.1mg was reported as very intense. 

But with it being way more lipid soluble than most things we are used to, If you spit it out in 5 minutes expect to feel ripped off. 

Other things of note, sub-lingual seems to also cause that odd almost numbing sensation that nasal does. It apparently does not taste very good. 

Almost all of the side effects seems self manifested. At crazy high doses, I noted that It seemed a little shakey. Resolved after a warm shower. All of the subjects who went into the experience expecting to have a good time had a great time, people who go into it apprehensive get muscle tension and other classical side effects that no one else notices. 

I think im noticing symptoms of tachycadria, only to check my pulse and feel it being completely normal. If you make yourself believe your having side effects or going to have them, they tend to be just as real as you imagine. It is every bit a mind manifesting psychedelic.


As far as cutting powders with other powders, your going to have difficult homogenizing it. 

70mg per sheet of blotter and 1-2 700ug doses should do the job. Nasal and sublingual have a slightly different character, nasal spray is generally prefered.


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## TheAzo

A mod should merge this into the 25C-NBOMe thread in PD  

I noticed some muscle tension on this stuff in the legs, but I pulled a muscle recently, so that probably made it worse. I also noticed bit of vasoconstriction, near the end in particular (on 450ug nasally). A warm shower pretty much resolved both of those complaints, and was quite pleasant in that state as well.


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## Help?!?!

jamaica0535 said:


> Also we have found that 700ug blotters are very much active, leave it in your cheek and gum until the paper is pretty much dissolving.
> 
> Sublingual - 700ug is very much active and pleasant. 1.4mg should be tripping moderately hard. 2.1mg was reported as very intense.
> 
> But with it being way more lipid soluble than most things we are used to, If you spit it out in 5 minutes expect to feel ripped off.
> 
> Other things of note, sub-lingual seems to also cause that odd almost numbing sensation that nasal does. It apparently does not taste very good.


I left 800ugs on two blots on my upper lip for around 45-60 minutes. Hit hard within 15 minutes of blotters removal and the first thing I noted after 15 minutes of administering it was how seriously numb my lip was getting. My upper lip was numb for a solid, I believe 30ish minutes after removal. Was certainly unexpected as I never heard/read of it. 800 ug's was enough for a fair +++. Very light on that exact level though. 1.2 mgs felt like it would have been a pretty strong +++(still fairly easy going in a sense though at least thats how I would imagine from the way 800 felt).


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## jamaica0535

This one tends to be kinda subtle... It makes its presence known quietly instead of with a megaphone.


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## SpecialK_

I found the visuals and the headspace really had me quite gone similar to the way acid can make you zone into visuals for a while. I did find though that it was really smooth and not overwhelming. In comparison to like 2C-E when sniffing a dose, you're literally peaking in ten minutes and throwing your guts up. This kicks in visually after about 10 minutes, but very faintly and builds up for about the next 45 into a peak; giving you a lot more time to get your head round it. I really enjoyed that, I think this stuff would be much better for going into higher doses with because of the initial 'onset' followed by coming up slowly over an hour.

Did anyone else experience jiterry'ness / shaking, there was some points were my leg was actually shaking out of control almost like a spasm. Nothing like the 2Cs, which will cause me to twitch like I've taken speed or something. It's a lot more LSD like than I thought, although I understood people were saying that. But it also adds in hue/colour change (to a much more noticeable level) and I got these weird visual points were it was almost like a magnifying glass was placed over parts of my visual field - if anyone has a word for this it would be appreciated.


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## sekio

add -> pd


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## psood0nym

jamaica0535 said:


> This one tends to be kinda subtle... It makes its presence known quietly instead of with a megaphone.


Maybe with sublingual blotters, which is about the most ineffective and inconsistent way to dose 25C as far as I can tell from this thread, though I certainly understand why people opt for them. Liquid insufflation or IM administration of the pure chemical goes from first alerts to plateau in just a few minutes, with the speed of onset being pretty disconcerting in the first few minutes because of the often difficult nature of accurately judging a sub-milligram dose using the milligram scales that nearly everyone ingesting this compound is working with (weighing out 20+ mg and using liquid measurement from there is probably more accurate than relying on scales to measure single milligrams to measure one or just a few doses at a time -- assuming 25C is stable enough in water to last you through 20+ milligrams). I was surprised by the intensity of liquid insufflation, which was more intense than the same amount IM'd strangely, but that may simply owe to a coincidence of inconsistent weighing. 

Plugging the blotters may very likely be more effective than sublingual, BTW (it's been reported as very effective with the pure chem), though I've never personally plugged 25C or used it sublingually. I'd think you could also make a solution for plugging or liquid insufflation from the blotters by simply soaking them in water for a few hours.

EDIT: I see you have used a nasal spray and not just blotters. It has not been my experience that plateauing takes an hour with liquid insufflation, more like 15 or 20 minutes to reach peak visuals for me.  It may be worth noting that my entire dose was in just 10 insulin units (0.1 mL), making for a very fast absorbing solution.


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## jamaica0535

I notice a sensation the degree of a foot going to sleep if i sit on it faster than it usually does. 

I plugged 3-4mg and was not worried about my fingers or toes. 

This drug is powerfully mind manifesting, the people who get side effects have shown a tendency to be the ones that go into it looking for them, or apprehensive about trying it because something bad might happen...


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## jamaica0535

^^ 1 700ug blotter dose was considered enough to be very much noticeable in an individual that starts with 1mg nasal spray. He felt that 2 would be enough, and 3 would be tripping balls. This sort of dose range is pretty effective if you don't swallow it or spit it out too quickly. 2 hours into our first experiment with it, we decided that this compound was very "nice" and stopped trying to over-analyze it.  



SpecialK_ said:


> I found the visuals and the headspace really had me quite gone similar to the way acid can make you zone into visuals for a while. I did find though that it was really smooth and not overwhelming. In comparison to like 2C-E when sniffing a dose, you're literally peaking in ten minutes and throwing your guts up. This kicks in visually after about 10 minutes, but very faintly and builds up for about the next 45 into a peak; giving you a lot more time to get your head round it. I really enjoyed that, I think this stuff would be much better for going into higher doses with because of the initial 'onset' followed by coming up slowly over an hour.
> 
> Did anyone else experience jiterry'ness / shaking, there was some points were my leg was actually shaking out of control almost like a spasm. Nothing like the 2Cs, which will cause me to twitch like I've taken speed or something. It's a lot more LSD like than I thought, although I understood people were saying that. But it also adds in hue/colour change (to a much more noticeable level) and I got these weird visual points were it was almost like a magnifying glass was placed over parts of my visual field - if anyone has a word for this it would be appreciated.



Myoclonus? Its a symptom stemming from some action on serotonin in the case of being caused by NBOMe... Other causes exist though. Take a warm shower, if its enough to bother you, a xanax or muscle relaxant.  

25i gave me jitteryness, just sort of shaky. 

Piracetam has been shown to reduce symptoms of myoclonus. Generally good for your brains health too.


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## SpecialK_

Thanks, I'll look into that. Although I would say I'm prone to this kind of thing, so it's possible I'm just sensitive to the effects. I'm almost always sick on psychedelics and also seem to get fairly jittery on any 2c/stim/etc.


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## Erny

cannibalsnail said:


> If I am sublingualling the dose is it better to spit it out or swallow it.


If you fear this chem then better don't mess with it. Fearing a psychedelic drug is a bad idea in general.



cannibalsnail said:


> I know first pass metabolism destroys the original molecule but is it possible it can continue to cause side effects?


What makes this drug to be orally inactive is not necessarily a metabolic degradation. It might be pharmacokinetics.


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## cannibalsnail

You confuse fear and precaution. I enjoy the trip regardless but losing fingers as a result would be an undesirable side effect. Hence I'd rather do some research than dive into it blindly.


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## Smokey McPot

Does anyone know how much liquid (in ml) one spray from a metered pump nasal spray bottle (drixoral brand 25ml bottle) has?

Is there any way to easily figure this out?

I'm trying to make a solution of 25c to spray intranasally but I don't know how much each spray is and I don't wanna fuck up the dosage math on such a potent compound. I'm trying to get a soluion that would end up being ~200mcg per spray as some others have done but I'm not sure of how much liquid is in a metered spray. If anybody knows how much is in each spray or even if you just know what mg/ml the solution should be for this purpose please help me out.


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## Karcinogenious

spray bottles can work fine, but may not be exactly the same for each spray..I made up a solution of 20mg (25cnbome) in 10ml (water/100proof vodka), with this solution it works out that 5 units (5/100ml) = 100mcg of 25cnbome...someone earlier in this post mentioned clipping the tip off the orange cap (I used wire cutters) and then putting it back on the syringe (so u dont have to put a 'needle' in ur nose) and then putting the syringe with the cap on it in ur nose and spraying it...this method has worked perfectly for me and my friends, and makes it easy to measure doses accurately...5 units = 100mcg, 25 units = 500mcg, etc......I should also mention that I used distilled water and brought it to a rolling boil, let it cool for a little and then added alcohol...from everything I have read the heat won't destroy the compound and having it really hot when you add the substance will really speed of the dissolving too, also bringing the water to a boil for a minute will kill most bacteria and keep your solution bacteria free for longer and is better for long-term storage probably


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## psood0nym

Buy a 1cc syringe, pull the plunger out of the back of it, and squirt the nasal spray directly into the barrel. Whatever level the spray fills up to is the volume of an individual spray (or maybe not, depending on numerous other factors). Of course, then you'll have syringes with handy volumetric labeling on the side and you could just as well use those with the needle cut off for liquid insufflation.

EDIT: Karcinognious: glad my method worked for you.

EDIT of the EDIT:SmokeyMcPot: I warned another poster of this same problem on Sept. 15 and suggested they not use nasal spray bottles because of it. Get syringes at your local pharmacy in person. If you're "psychologically incapable" of doing this (like some of my friends have claimed) you can order them online.


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## Karcinogenious

yeah dude it worked quite well...haha, "psychologically incapable" ...I have seen this quite a bit lol....I'm bout to post my experience reports, they came out a little long though, I am not that good at writing brief.....


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## Karcinogenious

I could talk a lot about these experiences (I’ll try to keep it short though), they were very immersive and I didn't expect to be so happy, I haven't laughed this much in a long time, the visuals (on the high dose) were breath-taking and being so lucid almost felt like cheating compared to other psych's, the level of visuals I had I have never experienced without border-line ego shattering...but on my high dose as the world around me exploded with rainbow-ic ambience, morphing, etc, I helped my girlfriend (verbally of course, I couldn’t see worth shit) do a rather hard crossword...this substance is fan-fuckin-tastic

The first time I tried this substance was at 500mcg administered nasally in liquid solution, 250mcg in each nostril.  Within five minutes I felt a little jittery and things began to slightly move.  By about 20 or so minutes into it I would say I was peaking and it was basically just some morphing and breathing, nothing spectacular, this lasted for about 2 hours and then things gradually came down for another 3 or 4...by this point I decided to work on some homework, I wrote an essay for biology class, did some reading, watched a lecture that was posted on here by Nichols, and then got some sleep (about 8 hours after taking the dose)...I slept fine, woke up feeling great

I had planned on trying a 1000mcg dose but wanted to see what a moderate dose(500mcg)  would be like first..well later that night some friends came over and I gave a small amount to a couple I know…they went home and both dosed around 1000mcg (200mcg sublingual and 800mcg nasally) and fuckin loved it, he called me and told me about the face-melting visuals he was experiencing and honestly I wouldn’t have know he was trippin unless he had said so, he really had his wits about him

The second time I dosed, it had been about two days since the first experiment (just to give you an idea of tolerance, which seemed nonexistent!)…I was really excited about taking a higher dose, slightly jealous of my friends’ experience, I couldn’t wait, and after reading through this whole fuckin thread I felt like 1500mcg would be intense but safe.  I don’t know what I expected but it was somewhere a long the lines of just more morphing, I thought it was just gonna be like my first dose but three times as strong…I was totally wrong…I loaded up the insulin syringe up to 25 units (500mcg) 3 times and each time I sprayed half in each nostril, by the time I was measuring out the third syringe,  I could feel a slight trembling in my body similar to the feeling I get before a breakthrough DMT experience.  I finished dosing at around 4:22 PM and decided to go into the living room and chill with my girlfriend until I felt like I should go in my dark room for a while, within five minutes I tripping face and told my girl I was gonna go lay down for a bit.  I went into the spare bedroom turned the lights out and put on some animal collective.  Everything was moving, I had a large blanket hung up over the window to keep light out and the blanket kept enveloping into it’s self until it was a single point and then unfolding, when I moved I experienced strong tracers, stronger than I have ever experienced.  I laid there for what felt like atleast 45 minutes and was really coming up fast, so I decided to check the time…it was 4:38…I knew at this point that I wasn’t even done coming up and it was going to get a lot crazier so I just laid back and chilled for another half an hour.  An amazing visual which totally surprised me since I thought this was just gonna be eye candy, was on the blanket flung over the window.  I looked at it closely and saw gnome-like or elf-like creatures with mushroom-shaped head and lanky bodies, they were moving all around on the wall and had well defined facial features, it was incredible.  I have never seen any type of entity on a psychedelic other than DMT, this really was beautiful.  At this point, it was 5PM or so, I decided to go back out and chill in the living room for a while.  How I Met Your Mother was on and just the way everyone looked was hilarious, I couldn’t stop giggling like a little bitch.  I started noticing some serious colorful visuals at this point, at 8 places evenly distributed in my visual field were what seemed like orbs emitting pure color, but it looked like all colors at once, very rainbow-ic and it made my whole visual field look beautiful…these rainbow colors are another thing I have only experienced on DMT, the main difference though is on DMT I was fucked up, and even though there is some head going on, I felt very deep when I thought, I was virtually lucid and was helping my girlfriend with a crossword.  I fell asleep around 1AM and slept great, had a great day the next day and felt good.  At this dose it almost felt like a different drug, and duration seemed different too…the first 2 hours were so strong that I pretty much just laid there like ohhhhh shitttttttt, but the next 2 hours were  like a mild acid trip, the visuals slowed down significantly, the last four hours were a gradual come down with barely any visual activity.  There wasn’t a whole lot of body stuff, but I did get some rushes of euphoria, but nothing too overwhelming (besides the trembling in the beginning, but that subsided quickly).

My experience is as follows: LSD, DMT, MESCALINE, P. CUBENSIS MUSHROOMS, CUBENSIS+MAOi, AMANITAS, 25C-NBOMe, 2C-E, 2C-I, LSA (from mgs), DIMENHYDRINATE, DIPHENHYDRAMINE, DXM, JWH-018 (pure), JWH-073 (pure), VARIOUS SYNTHETIC CANNABINOID MIXES, MDMA (ECSTASY/MOLLY), BK-MDMA (METHYLONE), MEPHEDRONE, OPIUM, COCAINE, VARIOUS AMPHETAMINES, VARIOUS BENZOS & VARIOUS OPIATES, NITROUS OXIDE, VARIOUS INHALANTS, ABSINTHE, ALCOHOL ….and I want to say that not to inflate my own ego, but to put in perspective that I have been around the block and took a lot of shit, and this shit, is very special, this is probably my drug of choice next time I got to a concert, also it feels like it would pair great with a lot of things, the lack of head fuck leaves room for some neat combos (always be careful when doing this tho)…over all, I would say this is a wonderful compound, I enjoyed it, and the 10 or so people that also tried it loved it as well, I have yet to personally witness a bad experience, I am sure it is possible, but damn this stuff is friendly, even at face-melting doses…I would still advise everyone who is going to try this to start at 350mcg or 500mcg, just to make sure you like it and also to make sure you aren’t one of those extremely sensitive people.


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## Smokey McPot

psood0nym said:


> Buy a 1cc syringe, pull the plunger out of the back of it, and squirt the nasal spray directly into the barrel. Whatever level the spray fills up to is the volume of an individual spray (or maybe not, depending on numerous other factors). Of course, then you'll have syringes with handy volumetric labeling on the side and you could just as well use those with the needle cut off for liquid insufflation.
> 
> EDIT: Karcinognious: glad my method worked for you.
> 
> EDIT of the EDIT:SmokeyMcPot: I warned another poster of this same problem on Sept. 15 and suggested they not use nasal spray bottles because of it. Get syringes at your local pharmacy in person. If you're "psychologically incapable" of doing this (like some of my friends have claimed) you can order them online.



That's genius, I never thought of spraying into a syringe for a measurement.

Thanks.


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## TheAzo

Smokey McPot said:


> Does anyone know how much liquid (in ml) one spray from a metered pump nasal spray bottle (drixoral brand 25ml bottle) has?
> 
> Is there any way to easily figure this out?



Easy. Fill it with 25ml of water (or 10 if you're lazy). Then start pumping it, counting the number of pumps until it runs out. Divide 25ml (or 10) by the number of pumps, and there you go. This will take a while (probably over 250 pumps)
They may have done the math for you, actually - read the back, and see if it has a total amount of whatever it's supposed to have in it, and an amount per spray. 

Re: spray volume changing, the ones I got, when measuring the spray volume on a 0.1mg scale, came out to 0.0875, +/- 0.0020 ml - that is, within 2.5%. So, once you figure out how much per spray, it's pretty accurate.


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## jamaica0535

Smokey, 

Its good to remember that you can measure liquid volume very precisely with a scale. 1g=1ml So put some water in it, set on  scale and it might read like 15.58g or 15.6 if your scale isn't that accurate. Write that number down. Spray and put back on scale, most seem to be pretty close to .1g per spray 15.48g or 15.5. 

When preparing solution, tare the bottle, add distilled water until its 24.5 and add a small bit of everclear for sterility until it reaches 25g. 

Oral syringes make great volumetric tools, the metric system makes it easy.


atara edit: if you're reading this, the new thread is over this way


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