# Teenage pot smoking may lower IQ – for life



## poledriver

*NZ - Lasting IQ harm from teen dope use*

*NZ - Lasting IQ harm from teen dope use*

The persistent use of cannabis before age 18 has been linked to lasting harm to intelligence, according to a large study.

Analysis of more than 1000 New Zealanders found those who took up cannabis in adolescence and used it for years afterwards experienced an average decline in IQ of eight points when measured at age 13 and 38.

People who did not begin using cannabis until they were adults, with fully formed brains, did not show the same declines.

Experts here and abroad say the findings are significant and could offer some explanation for the "teenage stoner" stereotype.

Lead researcher Madeline Meier of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, said quitting cannabis later in life did not appear to reverse the loss of intelligence.

Higher IQ correlated with higher education and income and better health, she said.

"Somebody who loses eight IQ points as an adolescent may be disadvantaged compared to their same-age peers for years to come."

The study, to be published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, examined individuals in the Dunedin Cohort study, which has followed 1037 people born in 1972-73 in Dunedin from birth.


About 5 per cent of the study group were considered cannabis-dependent, or used the drug more than once a week before age 18.

At age 38, all of the study participants were given a range of psychological tests to assess memory, processing speed, reasoning and visual processing. People who smoked cannabis persistently as teens scored significantly worse on most tests.

The decline in IQ among teenage users could not be explained by alcohol, other drug use or having less education, the team of international researchers found.

Dr Meier said a drop of eight IQ points was significant.

NZ and international experts have said the research provides valuable insight into the harm that could be caused by cannabis.

"Clearly we must focus energy on reducing the prevalence of cannabis use in adolescence," said Dr Simon Adamson, of Otago University's National Addiction Centre.

Ross Bell, head of the NZ Drug Foundation, said a clear picture had emerged that drugs such as cannabis and alcohol were particularly damaging for adolescents.

"The worrying thing in New Zealand is that young New Zealanders have pretty easy access to alcohol and cannabis and substances like butane."

Simply banning drugs such as cannabis and then thinking that was the problem solved would not work, Mr Bell said. "What we're lacking in New Zealand is support for widespread, high-quality, well-constructed prevention messages targeted at younger people."

New Zealanders are among the highest users of illegal drugs in the world, and top the list for cannabis use, according to a United Nations study released in June.

Robin Murray, professor of psychiatric research at King's College London, said the study could offer some explanation for the "teenage stoner" stereotype.

"It is of course part of folklore among young people that some heavy users of cannabis - my daughter calls them stoners - seem to gradually lose their abilities and end up achieving much less than one would have anticipated."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10829929


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## Zapa

poledriver said:


> "The worrying thing in New Zealand is that young New Zealanders have pretty easy access to alcohol and cannabis and substances like *butane*."



Out of fucking nowhere, butane!


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## slimvictor

ZOSIA BIELSKI
The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Aug. 27 2012, 6:18 PM EDT

Chronic use of the chronic before age of 18 can cause “lasting harm to a person’s intelligence, attention and memory” – and quitting pot later in life doesn’t reverse the damage, says daunting new research out of New Zealand.

The study, which followed 1,037 Kiwis for nearly 40 years, found that adolescents who smoked marijuana persistently for years showed declines of eight IQ points when their scores were tabulated at age 13 and then at 38. Teens who got stoned regularly all scored significantly worse than their sober counterparts on tests measuring memory, reasoning and processing speed, with family and friends of users corroborating the findings anecdotally.

“Marijuana is not harmless, particularly for adolescents,” lead researcher Madeline Meier, a post-doctoral researcher at Duke University, said in a release. “Somebody who loses eight IQ points as an adolescent may be disadvantaged compared to their same-age peers for years to come.”

Adolescent tokers are particularly vulnerable to lasting mental deficits because their brains are still developing, the researchers explained. Subjects who didn’t hit the bong until they were adults “with fully-formed brains” did not exhibit these drastic mental declines.

(Approximately five per cent of the respondents were deemed “marijuana-dependent,” that is, lighting up more than once a week before turning 18. The researchers controlled for other drug and alcohol use and disparities in education.)

What isn’t clear from this study is what quantity of weed causes damage, and what age (if any) might be safe for regular use.

Marijuana use is up among American teens, who are now more likely to smoke pot than tobacco, according to a 2011 University of Michigan study.

That study found one in every 15 high-school seniors getting high on a daily or near daily basis, the most substantive rates seen since 1981. 

cont at
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...smoking-may-lower-iq-for-life/article4503763/


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## ugly

Who paid for this study?


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## slimvictor

*Teenage Marijuana Use May Hurt Future IQ*



> Reported by Drs. Tiffany Chao and  Shari Barnett
> 
> Teenagers lighting joints may end up less bright, according to new research  released Monday.
> In a study of more than 1,000 adolescents in New Zealand, those who began habitually smoking marijuana before age 18 showed an eight-point drop in IQ between the ages of 13 and 38, a considerable decline.
> The average IQ is 100 points. A drop of eight points represents a fall from the 50th percentile to the 29th percentile in terms of intelligence.
> 
> The research, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, charted the IQ changes in participants over two decades.
> 
> Researchers tested the IQs of all of the study subjects at age 13 before any habitual marijuana use. Researchers then split the study into five “waves” during which time they assessed cannabis use — ages 18, 21, 26, 32, and 38. They again tested IQ at age 38. The authors also controlled for alcohol use, other drug use and education level.
> 
> The eight-point drop in IQ was found in subjects who started smoking in adolescence and persisted in “habitual smoking” — that is, using cannabis at least four days per week — in three or more of the five study waves.
> 
> People who started smoking in adolescence but used marijuana less persistently still had a hit to their IQ’s, but it was less pronounced than the group that used it early and persistently.
> 
> In contrast, those who never used marijuana at all gained nearly one IQ point on average.
> 
> Madeline Meier, lead researcher and a post-doctoral associate at Duke University, said that persistent use of marijuana in adolescence appeared to blunt intelligence, attention and memory. More persistent marijuana use was associated with greater cognitive decline.
> 
> “Collectively, these findings are consistent with speculation that cannabis use in adolescence, when the brain is undergoing critical development, may have neurotoxic effects,” Meier writes in the study.
> 
> Of particular worry is the permanence of these effects among people who began smoking marijuana in adolescence. Even after these subjects stopped using marijuana for a year, its adverse effects persisted and some neurological deficits remained. People who did not engage in marijuana smoking until after adolescence showed no adverse effects on intelligence.
> 
> Experts in child development said the reasons adolescents may be more susceptible to the harmful effects of marijuana may have to do with a substance called myelin. Myelin can be thought of as a kind of insulation for nerve cells in the brain that also helps speed brain signals along — and in adolescent brains, the protective coating it forms is not yet complete.
> 
> “Frontal lobe myelination is not fully completed until age 25 years or so, and the pre-myelinated brain is more susceptible to damage from neurotoxins,” says Dr. Richard Wahl, director of adolescent Medicine at the University of Arizona. “Cannabis, most likely, is a neurotoxin in high and continuous doses.”
> 
> The study appears to lend credence to “stoner” stereotypes in popular media. However, no previous studies can  provide data for this phenomenon, since establishing whether a drop in IQ has actually occurred requires that a baseline IQ be obtained before a person ever started using marijuana.  This study did just that.
> 
> “[The findings] provide evidence for the actual — rather than ideological and legal — basis for concerns regarding cannabis use,” said Dessa Bergen-Cico, a assistant professor of public health, food studies and nutrition at Syracuse University.  “These findings reinforce recommendations on the importance of primary prevention, evidence based drug education and policy efforts targeting not only adolescents, but elementary age children before they start.”



from 
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2012/08/27/teenage-marijuana-use-may-hurt-future-iq/


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## ugly

I do not trust studies. Especially in the U.S. during an election year.

and Obama, if you happen to be reading this, you sold us down the river with medical m.j. Now  there are going to be a flurry of studies showing marijuana in a bad light? That's convenient.

Romney is a Mormon so enough said about him.

I'm so glad I have a little crop. I wish it was bigger since the government in the U.S. is getting more conservative each day.

I wish I could move to Canada.


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## Busty St Clare

It was a New Zealand study. If it makes you feel any better we mistrust US politicians even more than you do.


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## slimvictor

Just wanted to point out that *nobody can tell you exactly what IQ scores measure*.
They are claimed to measure intelligence, but the people who make these claims cannot define intelligence. 
They certainly measure something, but what it is is not clear.
It certainly is culturally-based, and based in mainstream Western/U.S./North American culture specifically.
Therefore, if weed smokers get lower scores on IQ tests, it may be because they have diverged from the mainstream culture in various ways, and it may have little to do with "intelligence".


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## slimvictor

> For years, regular marijuana users have dismissed cautionary warnings that the habit killed brain cells, believing it was some kind of urban myth. Well, now scientists have produced evidence to back up the myth: a study of more than 1,000 people in New Zealand who were followed over two decades found that those who started habitually smoking marijuana before age 18 eventually showed an 8-point drop in IQ.



from 
http://atlantablackstar.com/2012/08/27/study-smoking-weed-as-teen-reduces-adult-iq/


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## arohydro

What does this spell for those of us that started consuming heavily at the age of 18? : P My concern is not great as whatever intelligence I have left, were it actually affected in the first place, is more than enough for even the loftiest ambitions.


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## slimvictor

arohydro said:


> What does this spell for those of us that started consuming heavily at the age of 18? : P My concern is not great as whatever intelligence I have left, were it actually affected in the first place, is more than enough for even the loftiest ambitions.



I like your confidence 
But no one has shown that intelligence is affected in any way.
If you believe this study, then IQ scores are affected.  Very different thing.


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## LogicSoDeveloped

I have friends that abused drugs including cannabis when young and they are successful now so I'm in the same boat as slimvictor.


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## edgarshade

ugly said:


> Who paid for this study?



Some 14 year old with more pot than sense!



slimvictor said:


> Just wanted to point out that *nobody can tell you exactly what IQ scores measure*.
> They are claimed to measure intelligence, but the people who make these claims cannot define intelligence.
> They certainly measure something, but what it is is not clear.
> It certainly is culturally-based, and based in mainstream Western/U.S./North American culture specifically.
> Therefore, if weed smokers get lower scores on IQ tests, it may be because they have diverged from the mainstream culture in various ways, and it may have little to do with "intelligence".



I remember seeing a documentary on TV years ago about a guy, Cyril Burt, who promoted the IQ test. Apparently, after he died, it was discovered that he fiddled his scientific results for years. There is also an interesting book on IQ.

I believe this is the abstract to the paper in question...
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/22/1206820109.abstract


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## slimvictor

edgarshade said:


> . There is also an interesting book on IQ.



Interesting book, got lots of criticism, some praise too. I am intrigued.  



> I believe this is the abstract to the paper in question...
> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/22/1206820109.abstract


Now that paper is a lot easier to believe, based on the abstract, since it tested neuropsychological abilities rather than the nearly meaningless IQ score.


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## edgarshade

slimvictor said:


> Now that paper is a lot easier to believe, based on the abstract, since it tested neuropsychological abilities rather than the nearly meaningless IQ score.



I got the link from the BBC version of the article. The researcher quoted does mention IQ in the article.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19372456


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## webbykevin

*Young cannabis smokers run risk of lower IQ, report claims*

Young people who smoke cannabis run the risk of a significant and irreversible reduction in their IQ, research suggests.

The findings come from a study of around 1,000 people in New Zealand.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19372456


I think NZ is probably the wrong place to do any kind of study on IQ's 

Only kidding, I know it's not fair to joke at the expense of our cross Tasman cousins but hey ITS SO EASY lol.

Seriously though, I wish they would do a similar study of the IQ's of people who watch main stream TV through their teenage and young adult years compared to people who don't, I think the results would be astounding.


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## webbykevin

Bugger, just seen this is already posted in an earlier thread today, Mods please merge it, thanks.


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## edgarshade

*Daily Mail - Cannabis is not an innocent drug, teenagers addicted..IQ...brain damage*

Cannabis is not an innocent drug, teenagers addicted to it risk damaging their IQ and causing significant brain damage

By Dr Robert Lefever

PUBLISHED: 11:36, 28 August 2012



> A magistrate, Yvonne Davies, when sentencing a cannabis grower to community service, urged him to stay away from the drug – after revealing that addiction to cannabis had killed her brother. She spoke about the ‘living hell’ her family had been through. She said, 'If I can stop one family going through what I went through it will be worth it.' Her brother killed himself after becoming a cannabis addict and developing schizophrenia and depression.
> 
> Mrs Davies said: ‘He was a very caring and clever person but he had this addiction. ‘At first he would just smoke it at weekends and the family knew about it but we weren’t happy at all. ‘We tried to discuss it with him on a few occasions but he would just brush off our concerns saying that it wasn’t dangerous. ‘But we noticed a change when he started smoking it more than just at weekends.’ He began using the drug on a daily basis. Eventually he lost his job after his employers became aware of his addiction. Mrs Davies said that her brother could not cope with unemployment and so he smoked more cannabis, eventually developing depression.
> 
> She said: ‘We noticed a definite change in his personality as he would get angry and very anxious. He was trying to hide it from us but we all knew what was going on and were hoping that he would stop.’ One night, after a row with his parents, he stormed out with the family dog – which returned on its own, soaking wet, several hours later. After ten days, his body was found in a canal.






> The scientific evidence continues to mount. Cannabis is not the innocent weed that some people say it is. Cannabis is a nasty dangerous drug that is addictive in some people. It can cause significant damage to brain function, particularly in the young.
> 
> This is the message that needs to be emphasised by social workers, teachers, doctors, politicians and magistrates as well as by parents.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...ging-IQ-causing-significant-brain-damage.html


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## Black Octagon MK 2

edgarshade said:


> I believe this is the abstract to the paper in question...
> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/08/22/1206820109.abstract



Yes.  And the full text in PDF is available (for now!) here: http://infam.antville.org/static/infam/files/pnas.pdf
Main 'takeaway' from the study is that the most risk comes from smoking before adulthood, and from smoking it persistently in high amounts.  Seems rather intuitive, really.


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## welshmick

2 + 2 + 2 = 5

Not buggered my IQ up


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## severely etarded

This "study" lacks any clear-cut control group. IQ and "intelligence" varies greatly from unique individual.

There is absolutely no way to do this study right, without inventing a time machine in the process, to go back to when the smokers were teens and experiment.

Saying any conclusive results have come from this study is outright propaganda.


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## RobotRipping

oh what bullshit, oh my iq score oh no, what will i do with my life now. Maybe i won't be able to solve useless puzzles anymore or make abstract comparisons as well. Perhaps smoking cannabis allows your brain to think better in ways that are more applicable to our natural life rather than like a computer/robot.

what do these people really have against cannabis? Were they the kids in highschool who weren't invited to get high and felt left out and now have to persecute every last one of those kids who so selfishly damaged them forever? That's what i like to picture in my head.


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## InvisibleEye

Cannabis, a 'living hell'?! Haha!


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## The Network

The only reason people are able to link drug use to stupid people, is because very stupid people that have crappy lives and either crappy or no job are more likely to spend money on drugs. At least that's the way it works around here.


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## The Network

severely etarded said:


> This "study" lacks any clear-cut control group. IQ and "intelligence" varies greatly from unique individual.
> 
> There is absolutely no way to do this study right, without inventing a time machine in the process, to go back to when the smokers were teens and experiment.
> 
> Saying any conclusive results have come from this study is outright propaganda.



It's funny every time I look at a thread about how everything makes people retarded, and you're almost always the last person to have posted.


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## The Network

Also, like 5 other articles citing the same study have been posted.


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## 20max10

edgarshade said:


> I got the link from the BBC version of the article. The researcher quoted does mention IQ in the article.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19372456



Just seen this on BBC News, and they were talking their usual bullshit about how this study was carried out with "80s marijuana" and how the "skunk" on the street today is much stronger with unknown effects


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## edgarshade

Looks like the By Dr Robert Lefever article got moved here. No problem. I started it as a new thread because, although he mentioned the IQ study, he was more having a rant about cannabis in general.


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## JackiesBabyy

Meh, big deal, so my high school years spent high 90% of the time dropped my IQ from 135 to 127, I'll deal with it. (I took a test at age12)


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## webbykevin

The Network said:


> Also, like 5 other articles citing the same study have been posted.



yeh, i know, must be the cannabis affecting my IQ


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## poledriver

it happens


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## 23536

a critique:



> *Perspective on cannabis dependence and IQ*
> 
> Reports from various news outlets have been discussing a paper published a couple of days ago in PNAS. The paper investigates cannabis dependence, and it’s relation to change in IQ. Media articles have interpreted these findings as ‘cannabis use is harmful to adolescent brains, but not afterwards’. Now, before I go on, I should say that I’m not disputing that this may be the case, but I don’t think this paper provides as strong evidence as is being reported, for a number of reasons, which I’ll go through here.
> 
> *1. Sample size.* OK, 1000 people sounds like a lot, but in terms of observational epidemiology, it’s not massive. This study had 5 levels of cannabis use, 3 of which had at least some form of dependence. Although cannabis use is quite common, cannabis dependence is not, and so the number of people in the highest cannabis use categories are very small, 35 and 38 in the top two. So although 1000 sounds like a lot, it can mean very small numbers in each category. Indeed, later in the paper, when the authors compare those dependent by age 18 with those dependent after age 18, they are looking at groups of less than 15 people in some cases.
> 
> Also, when looking at the sample they report, it looks like their analyses are only done on 874 of those 1037 people they mention in the abstract. But I can’t see any mention of why this would be.
> 
> *2. Cannabis dependence.* As I mention above, although cannabis use is quite common, cannabis dependence isn’t. The smaller a sample size, the less representative they are of the population at large. This can result in a larger standard deviation, or wider confidence intervals (measures which represent the spread of likely ‘true’ underlying values assessed by a sample).  55% of the whole sample is in their second category, ‘used cannabis, never diagnosed dependent’. A further 28% of the sample have never used cannabis at all, leaving only 17% of the sample who have ever been diagnosed as cannabis dependent. These 153 people are then further divided in to 3 dependence categories. Since most people are in the ‘used, not dependent’ category, to me it would make more sense to divide this category up a little, as there’s a lot of variation in recreational use before a person would reach dependence which is lost.



more: http://www.scilogs.com/sifting_the_evidence/perspective-on-cannabis-dependence-and-iq/


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## 23536

another critique:



> *Cannabis reduces IQ (and appreciation of context)*
> 
> Some of the smartest and most talented people I know are regular cannabis users, and have been for years.  But this personal observation seemingly runs contrary to a new study recently published that suggests that young cannabis users run the risk of a lower IQ. In what is an impressively long-term cohort study, it was found that "those who started using cannabis below the age of 18 - while their brains were still developing - suffered a drop in IQ".
> 
> It does sound like an impressive study, and any study maintained over 2 decades deserves kudos for that alone. But as always, a news story written for the general public is going to leave out some important scientific points, as well as potentially raising some issues.
> 
> Firstly, as is often said, correlation does not imply causation. Just because those who smoked cannabis as teenagers were recorded as having lower IQs, doesn't automatically mean that cannabis intake causes lower IQ. Measuring IQ is often a slippery subject, let alone working out what sort of things affect it. For example, as bizarre as it may seem, height is apparently positively correlated with IQ. That is, taller people seem to be more intelligent, according to IQ tests. Why is this? It's uncertain. You may think it's a bit contrived to use height as an example in a discussion about cannabis. But then, cannabis is typically smoked. And what stunts your growth…?
> 
> Studies of large populations are tricky, it's practically impossible to rule out ALL variables that affect a typical human. Some large studies have revealed a link between cannabis use and psychiatric disorders like psychosis and schizophrenia. It's still uncertain as to how this might occur. It's logical to assume that regular intake of mind-altering chemicals will alter your mind for the worse, eventually. But it may be possible that people prone to or suffering from these psychiatric disorders are self-medicating, using the effects of the drugs to alleviate the symptoms of the psychiatric illness. It becomes a question of what came first; the schizophrenic chicken or the constantly-stoned egg?
> 
> The study is undoubtedly a good one and will produce a lot of interesting analysis and discussion for years to come. On the down side, it's likely that this finding has already been stripped of any meaningful scientific context by anti-drug campaigners and politicians looking to score easy points.



continued http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/brain-flapping/2012/aug/29/cannabis-reduces-iq?CMP=twt_gu


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## edgarshade

Daily Mail

29 August 2012 1:02 PM
Peter Hitchens Blog

With reader comments



> An Antidote to Anecdote – Undeniable Evidence that Cannabis is bad for you





> The son of a friend of mine suffered severe, irreversible mental illness after he used cannabis in his early teens. He has since found, in conversations with friends of his own age, that this is an extraordinarily common experience.  A happy, healthy bright child smoked cannabis in his (it usually is his rather than her) early teens, and his personality altered, his hopes were dashed and he isi now in many ways a burden on those who love him.
> 
> He seethes at the way in which complacent people will dismiss these accounts as ‘anecdotal’, as if that meant they didn’t mean anything, or have any wider significance. How many such anecdotes, he asks, would amount to evidence on which one might act? Part of the problem, as I discuss in my soon-to-be-published book , ‘The War we Never Fought’  is that mental illness is itself a very vague category, hard to define and hard to measure objectively. I have dealt with this in my riposte to those who have referred (and will no doubt again refer) me to the inconclusive Keele Study, which a) used a database which almost certainly excludes many cannabis users, and b) referred to ‘Schizophrenia’, a category whose borderlines shift and are disputed, and for which there is no objective measure; also it is not necessarily the only form of mental illness which might be associated with cannabis use.



More...
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...le-evidence-that-cannabis-is-bad-for-you.html


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## AlphaMethylPhenyl

*Cannabis more damaging to under-18s, study suggests*

"Adolescents who are regular users of cannabis are at risk of permanent damage to their intelligence, attention span and memory, according to the results of research covering nearly four decades.

The long-term study which followed a group of over 1,000 people from birth to the age of 38 has produced the first convincing evidence, say scientists, that cannabis has a different and more damaging effect on young brains than on those of adults.

Around 5% of the group used cannabis at least once a week in adolescence or were considered dependent on it. Between the age of 13 and 38, when all members of the group were given a range of psychological tests, the IQ of those who had been habitual cannabis users in their youth had dropped by eight points on average.

Giving up cannabis made little difference – what mattered was the age at which young people began to use it. Those who started after the age of 18 did not have the same IQ decline.

"This work took an amazing scientific effort," said Professor Terrie Moffitt of King's College London's Institute of Psychiatry, one of the authors.

"We followed almost 1,000 participants, we tested their mental abilities as kids before they ever tried cannabis, and we tested them again 25 years later after some participants became chronic users.

"Participants were frank about their substance abuse habits because they trust our confidentiality guarantee, and 96% of the original participants stuck with the study from 1972 to today.

"It's such a special study that I'm fairly confident that cannabis is safe for over-18 brains, but risky for under-18 brains."

The research, on people in Dunedin, New Zealand, was carried out by researchers from King's College and Duke University, North Carolina in the United States and published online by PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences).

"Marijuana is not harmless, particularly for adolescents," said Madeline Meier from Duke, one of the researchers. While eight IQ points on a scale where the mean is 100 may not sound a lot, she said, a drop from 100 to 92 represents a move from the 50th to the 29th percentile. Higher IQs correlate with higher education and income, better health and a longer life.

"Somebody who loses eight IQ points as an adolescent may be disadvantaged compared to their same-age peers for years to come," Meier said. The study took into account the education of the participants, which can be disrupted by drug use.

The authors say that young people tend today to think that cannabis is harmless. "Increasing efforts should be directed toward delaying the onset of cannabis use by young people, particularly given the recent trend of younger ages of cannabis-use initiation in the United States and evidence that fewer adolescents believe that cannabis use is associated with serious risk," says the paper.

"The simple message is that substance use is not healthy for kids," said Avshalom Caspi, of Duke and King's, one of the leaders of the study. "That's true for tobacco, alcohol, and apparently for cannabis."

Robin Murray, professor of psychiatric research at King's, who was not involved in the study, said the paper was impressive and if the same results were found in other research, public education campaigns should be launched to warn of the dangers of cannabis to younger people. "The Dunedin sample is probably the most intensively studied cohort in the world and therefore the data is very good. The researchers, who I know well, are among the best epidemiologists in the world. Therefore, although one should never be convinced by a single study, I take the findings very seriously.

"There are a lot of clinical and educational anecdotal reports that cannabis users tend to be less successful in their educational achievement, marriages and occupations. It is of course part of folklore among young people that some heavy users of cannabis seem to gradually lose their abilities and end up achieving much less than one would have anticipated. This study provides one explanation as to why this might be the case." 


http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/aug/27/cannabis-damaging-under-18s-study


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## Darksidesam

I waited until i was 19 to try any chemicals/drugs, however i was given alcohol when i was younger, although i didnt get drunk very often not a thing i wanted to do that much.

I think that everyone should wait until they are 18 unless they have a medical valid reason, to smoke weed (Be it inflammatory disease, joint pain, insomnia) 

I think that drugs are for *Adults*.


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## AlphaMethylPhenyl

Got it. There were many people on this one. This study needs to be repeated. Hopefully its in the process of being...


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## 23536

^would it necessarily take several decades to try to reproduce the results?  Isn't there a more rapid way to test this?


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## AlphaMethylPhenyl

In my opinion it would, assuming they can be reproduced. I think the most accurate way would be to play it out in real life as it has been. Otherwise we make reductive assumptions.


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## GodSpeedK

I really hope that's BS because it'll just be another thing I'll regret about my life (most of my blazing took place in my teenage years).


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## daytryptr

I'd be alot more inclined to take this seriously if they also did the same study on alcohol. I mean its used more commonly than marijuana, and god knows how that affects a developing brain/body, especially the way teenagers drink.

Not that chronic use of cannabis when your brain is still heavily developing is a good idea either. Just sayin.


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## slimvictor

^ But the effects of cannabis are completely independent of the effects of alcohol.
They are two totally unrelated things. 
Whether cannabis harms your brain, or not, will be something that research on cannabis (eventually) tells us, not research on alcohol!
Your political agenda has clouded your scientific analysis.


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## daytryptr

slimvictor said:


> ^ But the effects of cannabis are completely independent of the effects of alcohol.
> They are two totally unrelated things.
> Whether cannabis harms your brain, or not, will be something that research on cannabis (eventually) tells us, not research on alcohol!
> Your political agenda has clouded your scientific analysis.



True. Really i just assume people think alcohol isn't going to lower your IQ significantly, at least not with moderate use. I guess the grip i had is that tons of people will use this to rationalize the prohibition of cannnabis, whilst agreeing that alcohol does the same thing in regards to the arbitrary measure of IQ and not have a problem with it being legal. So the study is fine, just how i imagine people will interpret it. Very true that thats not very scientific though, definitely political. And politics/scientific evidence should rightly be completely independent.


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## KamMoye

A big fucking LOL @ how so many times people will bust out "study this says X" and people nod their head and affirm, rarely questioning the validity of science, the all-knowing God, but when it's about marijuana...


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## slimvictor

daytryptr said:


> True. Really i just assume people think alcohol isn't going to lower your IQ significantly, at least not with moderate use. I guess the grip i had is that tons of people will use this to rationalize the prohibition of cannnabis, whilst agreeing that alcohol does the same thing in regards to the arbitrary measure of IQ and not have a problem with it being legal. So the study is fine, just how i imagine people will interpret it. Very true that thats not very scientific though, definitely political. And politics/scientific evidence should rightly be completely independent.



Then we agree completely. 
We even fear the same things - the public opinion of the news, and the social control that leads to people saying things like "alcohol and drugs".


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## Dr. Rabid

ugly said:


> I do not trust studies. Especially in the U.S. during an election year.
> 
> and Obama, if you happen to be reading this, you sold us down the river with medical m.j. Now  there are going to be a flurry of studies showing marijuana in a bad light? That's convenient.
> 
> Romney is a Mormon so enough said about him.
> 
> I'm so glad I have a little crop. I wish it was bigger since the government in the U.S. is getting more conservative each day.
> 
> *I wish I could move to Canada*.




Our current government is more conservative than your current government.  Actually Fuhrer Harper is almost universally detested among liberals here for trying to make Canada into America.


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## slimvictor

KamMoye said:


> A big fucking LOL @ how so many times people will bust out "study this says X" and people nod their head and affirm, rarely questioning the validity of science, the all-knowing God, but when it's about marijuana...



No doubt.
People trust "a scientific study" far more than they should, and see science as a God.
But only when it matches their own agenda!

"Wine and coffee are good for you!"  Unless you read all of the relevant research, which shows both positive and negative effects. 

Science is a powerful tool, but should not be seen as a God.  
It is constantly changing, and what was considered common sense just a century ago is now considered ridiculous. 
What we think of as scientific truth now will be edited as science progresses, and in another century they will be laughing at us. 
(We hope!)


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## AlphaMethylPhenyl

I find it funny that the only thing to attack about this study is the scientific process itself, which is happening. Either that or admit that early cannabis use was probably permanently detrimental for yourself.

Make no mistake, I am in the category of early, chronic, cannabis use.


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## PriestTheyCalledHim

What defines "Abuse" or "heavy use"? The anti-drug propaganda proponents will claim that even just one time use, or maybe smoking a few times a week, or a few times a month is "Abuse".

I have also heard that IQ tests are culturally and class biased.

Also what about how TONS of teenagers or underage kids abuse alcohol, and that's a lot more worse for you. Yeah I did drink as a teenager/young adult but looking back it was social drinking and I didn't really abuse alcohol until I was in my early 20s at 22 but I don't drink at all now.

This "study" also assumes that you can't increase your IQ which you can.


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## AlphaMethylPhenyl

technically using an illegal drug for something other than a federally recognized medical disorder is abuse

IQ tests are totally bias

it would be nice to see the study replicated with alcohol,  but that does not take away from what cannabis does

where did it say that?


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