# What is wrong with the MDMA available today?



## Le Junk

*NOTE:* A handy draft summary (work-in-progress) of some of the key content covered in this thread can be accessed *⫸HERE⫷*


Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.

Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.

Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.

Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...

My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!


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## Clocktower

Bear in mind that it is possible to counterfeit a pill press. You should buy yourself a reagent testing kit, Marquis reagent in particular if you want to identify MDMA. Testing your MDMA before you take it is critical if you want to avoid lackluster or dangerous experiences.


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## Itsgoneundertheboa

This has been a pretty common discussion since the early 2000s. I bumped the last thread has ecstasy disappeared as its a fairly good summary of several months discussion and theory. 

You can also find detailed discussion re marquis and isomers, precursor etc in the EADD section regional pill discussion and reviews of Dutch pills and effects etc.  

Your knowledge would be welcome to the discussion. Us old skoolers generally get "loss of magic" and "rose tinted glasses" but people are starting to realise that perhaps there is some mileage in the Mongy MDMA debate.


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## consumer

It is a common complaint in EADD. The theory is the precursor being used by the dutch labs creates a different racemic mix of mdma which while being the same chemical is producing mongy non euphoric mdma.


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## PriestTheyCalledHim

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is a bleach white crystalline powder that lays like snow.  It's extremely fine in texture but lays fluffy just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  Of course the eye wiggles and chattiness etc.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to the current day street pills experience.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  They seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  No next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's pretty much hell wherever I am.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!



A lot of what's sold as MDMA/MDA these days or since the 90s/early 00s is anything but that, especially with pressed pills.

Did you test the pressed pills you bought? If you did not, it's no wonder why you get garbage pills and powders sold as MDMA/MDA.

A friend of mine took what he thought was MDA/MDMA but it turned out to be 2C-B which he was fine with.

Based on how you said that you felt the effects of the pills the next day it sounds as though you took some MDMA/MDA that had meth in it.

I've never taken MDMA or MDA as neither of them interested me, and I certainly would not get into taking either of them now.  People I know who took MDMA/MDA when they were legal in the 70s and 80s said they have no interest in taking it today.


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## epic11

I think its all non-sense. Ive had incredible rolls from pills produced in the last year. Mis-information. Maybe you arent getting the bomb quality you seek now?

****2019 edit: Im wrong and this thread is onto something. When i made this comment i was still getting really good stuff, smelly, strong loving stuff. My most recent posts now reflect what i see now.***


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## terarc

I have to say I've had some mind blowing and some disgusting rolls from MDMA that have all been from lab tested powders. I think really it either has to be down to set/setting and tolerance issues (which I think are surprisingly and broadly important with MDMA), or the racemic mixture theory suggested above, due to alternate precursors. Though some of the shitty rolls were from MDMA that I'm certain was produced via safrole oil, so who knows.


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## Le Junk

epic11 said:


> I think its all non-sense. Ive had incredible rolls from pills produced in the last year. Mis-information. Maybe you arent getting the bomb quality you seek now?



I think it's all relative to whether or not you've ever actually done excellent quality MDMA or not.  If the only thing you've done is current day MDMA and the quality is consistent with these lab tested Supremes and Tesla's that I've referred too, then you may think you've done incredible rolls, but you indeed have not.  Now I'm not saying that you personally haven't done excellent quality rolls.  That's not what I'm saying, but I'm sure you understand that.  

Let me put it this way.  If you don't feel strong love and empathy the entire night from taking your lab tested MDMA, you're doing bad MDMA.  If you have a bad come down the night of taking your lab tested MDMA, you're doing bad MDMA.  If you feel like crap the following day after doing your lab tested MDMA, you're doing bad MDMA.  That pretty much sums it up.   

It's unfortunate that the quality of these lab tested pure MDMA pills is so painfully awful compared to this white crystalline powder that I thankfully have once again.  To compare the quality of the two would be insulting to the powder.  

If this new precursor type of MDMA is the future of MDMA, I feel genuinely bad for its users.

Le Junk


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## Le Junk

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> This has been a pretty common discussion since the early 2000s. I bumped the last thread has ecstasy disappeared as its a fairly good summary of several months discussion and theory.
> 
> You can also find detailed discussion re marquis and isomers, precursor etc in the EADD section regional pill discussion and reviews of Dutch pills and effects etc.
> 
> Your knowledge would be welcome to the discussion. Us old skoolers generally get "loss of magic" and "rose tinted glasses" but people are starting to realise that perhaps there is some mileage in the Mongy MDMA debate.



Thank you.  I will join the discussion as I'm sure you know as well as I do, it's not just us ;-)

Le Junk


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## AnanasBannana

consumer said:


> It is a common complaint in EADD. The theory is the precursor being used by the dutch labs creates a different racemic mix of mdma which while being the same chemical is producing mongy non euphoric mdma.


Surely MDMA would be MDMA? How can you have different qualities of the same compound?


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## terarc

Precisely, if it tests as purely MDMA then it's MDMA, there is nothing else to it. The racemic mixture theory is a possibility I suppose but my chemist friend seemed to think that any racemic compound will come out at roughly 50/50, give or take a little, regardless of precursors. I personally think it's all down to set/setting and also the hugely obvious fact that after you do MDMA a certain number of times, it does just become shit. I can attest to this personally because I had six experiences on the exact same lab tested batch in one year, the first three (my first 3 MDMA experiences ever) were MIND BLOWING, precisely how people described the 'good old MDMA'. However on the third time I overdosed slightly (only like 160mg compared to 120mg), and since then I have never really enjoyed MDMA, from any batch.


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## Le Junk

terarc said:


> Precisely, if it tests as purely MDMA then it's MDMA, there is nothing else to it. The racemic mixture theory is a possibility I suppose but my chemist friend seemed to think that any racemic compound will come out at roughly 50/50, give or take a little, regardless of precursors. I personally think it's all down to set/setting and also the hugely obvious fact that after you do MDMA a certain number of times, it does just become shit. I can attest to this personally because I had six experiences on the exact same lab tested batch in one year, the first three (my first 3 MDMA experiences ever) were MIND BLOWING, precisely how people described the 'good old MDMA'. However on the third time I overdosed slightly (only like 160mg compared to 120mg), and since then I have never really enjoyed MDMA, from any batch.



Trust me, they're completely different.  My proof is simply these two samples I have right here in front of me.  I have my white crystalline powder and red Supreme tabs.  The red Supremes were ecstasydata lab tested as pure MDMA and were sent in by, how do I say this, someone that I know.  I myself have done both and can tell you that to even try and compare the two would be insulting to the powder.  Plain and simple, the red Supremes are unenjoyable and the white powder is nothing short of heavenly.  

Example # 2.  My neighbor, who's never done ecstasy in her life, was talked into doing the red Supremes by me when I was out of the powder.  Afterwards, she said she would never do ecstasy again.  She said it was nothing like I described it and it showed.  She wasn't loved up, she was very introverted, she spent most of the night either puking or laying on the sofa.  The next day she said she felt cracked out.  

After a couple months, I was able to talk her into trying the powder with me.  We were in the same exact setting as the time before.  My place.  This time she was in love, she was telling me things she'd never told anyone before, she couldn't stop rubbing on me, she must have told me she loved me 50 times, she said if the whole world was on this there would be no wars, we made love all night and the next day we went out to breakfast and came back home and continued making love.

They are not the same.  I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot.  People keep talking about setting etc.  That's the bullshit.  If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.

Le Junk

P.S. The difference is in the isomers.


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## LSDiesel

Le Junk i love this thread. I first experienced MDXX circa 2000 and i still roll today. I remember reading threads a few years ago where you talk about how good coke left in the 90s. I always thought it made sense since i cant imagine all the rage for coke extending to whats available today. My first rolls i found out were MDA/MDMA mix pills. Have you considered if maybe the Dallas stuff was a mix as well?

Also mdma in a 15 year old body can feel alot more amazing than a 35 year old body. Its kinda something that will forever be a mystery since we cant go back and get a 1985 or 2000 sample of mdma. Would be a cool project to time capsule some pills for future rollers. Ha


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## terarc

I think it's way more likely that it's due to age and extent of use. It's too coincidental that it's only stimulant substances that mess with levels of neurotransmitters, rather than just agonise some receptors, that were 'better in the good old days'. Yeah ok most substances aren't that great quality but those with the connections for great quality stuff aren't moaning, other than about stimulants. It's well known that stimulant substances have massively diminishing returns and the brain doesn't respond as well to them after the first few exposures. The reason people could be finding MDMA less enjoyable more often now could just be that people are being more irresponsible and are taking higher doses at a greater frequency so this 'honeymoon period' is over before they ever knew it started.


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## PriestTheyCalledHim

Le Junk said:


> Trust me, they're completely different.  My proof is simply these two samples I have right here in front of me.  I have my white crystalline powder and red Supreme tabs.  The red Supremes were ecstasydata lab tested as pure MDMA and were sent in by, how do I say this, someone that I know.  I myself have done both and can tell you that to even try and compare the two would be insulting to the powder.  Plain and simple, the red Supremes are unenjoyable and the white powder is nothing short of heavenly.
> 
> Example # 2.  My neighbor, who's never done ecstasy in her life, was talked into doing the red Supremes by me when I was out of the powder.  Afterwards, she said she would never do ecstasy again.  She said it was nothing like I described it and it showed.  She wasn't loved up, she was very introverted, she spent most of the night either puking or laying on the sofa.  The next day she said she felt cracked out.
> 
> After a couple months, I was able to talk her into trying the powder with me.  We were in the same exact setting as the time before.  My place.  This time she was in love, she was telling me things she'd never told anyone before, she couldn't stop rubbing on me, she must have told me she loved me 50 times, she said if the whole world was on this there would be no wars, we made love all night and the next day we went out to breakfast and came back home and continued making love.
> 
> They are not the same.  I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot.  People keep talking about setting etc.  That's the bullshit.  If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.
> 
> Le Junk
> 
> P.S. The difference is in the isomers.



It could be placebo.  Or other factors.  Aren't you married? What did your wife think of you having sex with your neighbor?

I've personally never used MDMA or MDA as they did not interest me and I preferred high doses of LSD and mushrooms.

When I was into stimulants I preferred to take small/moderate doses of Dexedrine or Adderall.


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## Le Junk

LSDiesel said:


> Le Junk i love this thread. I first experienced MDXX circa 2000 and i still roll today. I remember reading threads a few years ago where you talk about how good coke left in the 90s. I always thought it made sense since i cant imagine all the rage for coke extending to whats available today. My first rolls i found out were MDA/MDMA mix pills. Have you considered if maybe the Dallas stuff was a mix as well?
> 
> Also mdma in a 15 year old body can feel alot more amazing than a 35 year old body. Its kinda something that will forever be a mystery since we cant go back and get a 1985 or 2000 sample of mdma. Would be a cool project to time capsule some pills for future rollers. Ha



Yep, great coke definitely went the way of the dinosaur.  And very similar to todays MDMA story, coke of the 70's-90's was fully oxidized thus the high from it was what dreams were made out of.  Todays coke, though it still tests positive for cocaine, is not oxidized and contains 10-12 other alkaloids that alter and ruin the true cocaine high.  

As with todays MDMA, the production has resulted in changes due to the lack of safrole which means MDMA thru a different synthesis.  As a result, I believe the theory of todays MDMA favoring the R isomer over the S isomer.  The result is a lackluster end product, though still MDMA compound, the high is nothing close to S isomer favored MDMA.  

And the Dallas Groups product was pure MDMA, made correctly I might add ;-)


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## Le Junk

PriestTheyCalledHim said:


> It could be placebo.  Or other factors.  Aren't you married? What did your wife think of you having sex with your neighbor?
> 
> I've personally never used MDMA or MDA as they did not interest me and I preferred high doses of LSD and mushrooms.
> 
> When I was into stimulants I preferred to take small/moderate doses of Dexedrine or Adderall.



Lol, good observation my friend.  I got divorced about 3 years ago.  The neighbor had nothing to do with it.  No placebo effect though.  I have the two samples here with me now.  Powder and Red Supremes.  I've had plenty of friends try both and they all said they're like two completely different drugs.  One said they were as similar as pot is to cocaine.


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## No. 13 Baby

If a Marquis test showed dark purple to black for my MDMA crystal, does that mean there is definitely not any or at least not a lethal amount of PMA/PMMA in my MDMA?


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## Itsgoneundertheboa

It may help for a Mod to create a new Thread for no 13 baby. 

The marquis is only a test to tell you what may be in the pill or crystal. Not what exactly or amount. Even with use of all other reagents there is no way to tell exactly what adulterants could be in a pill or crystal.

The premise behind the reagent test is simply to try and identify MDxx as an ingredient. 

There are many substances that will turn a Marquis black / purple. A mix of PMA / PMMA / MDMA is impossible to spot with Marquis or any other reagent. Reagents have limitation. 

Bunk police have just released a new test called the separation test, not personally tried as yet, which theoretically does allow you to identify the different ingredients in a pill or crystal. Again not an absolute in terms of % but a step forward at least in home test.


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## terarc

Le Junk said:


> Yep, great coke definitely went the way of the dinosaur.  And very similar to todays MDMA story, coke of the 70's-90's was fully oxidized thus the high from it was what dreams were made out of.  Todays coke, though it still tests positive for cocaine, is not oxidized and contains 10-12 other alkaloids that alter and ruin the true cocaine high.
> 
> As with todays MDMA, the production has resulted in changes due to the lack of safrole which means MDMA thru a different synthesis.  As a result, I believe the theory of todays MDMA favoring the R isomer over the S isomer.  The result is a lackluster end product, though still MDMA compound, the high is nothing close to S isomer favored MDMA.
> 
> And the Dallas Groups product was pure MDMA, made correctly I might add ;-)



So what about the MDMA I've taken which I know for a fact was made from safrole, and which was GC/MS tested as being solely MDMA HCl of high purity, but was disappointing in the same way you describe? And what about the fact that I and many others have had 'classic good old' MDMA experiences, and 'shitty modern' MDMA experiences from the exact same batch?

Sorry but the thread really amounts to nothing more than speculation and nostalgia from what I can tell.


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## Le Junk

terarc said:


> So what about the MDMA I've taken which I know for a fact was made from safrole, and which was GC/MS tested as being solely MDMA HCl of high purity, but was disappointing in the same way you describe? And what about the fact that I and many others have had 'classic good old' MDMA experiences, and 'shitty modern' MDMA experiences from the exact same batch?
> 
> Sorry but the thread really amounts to nothing more than speculation and nostalgia from what I can tell.



terarc,

I would think that you were right with one HUGE exception.  I have the same MDMA crystalline powder that I've always had since the late 80's and the experiences I get from that are the same as they've always been since the late 80's.  So now what?

And how do you know the stuff you were taking was made from Safrole?  Unless you personally have access to GC/MS testing, there's no way you would know that for sure.  Ecstasydata does not publish results of Safrole or not.

In addition, the Safrole argument is only one possibility.  Isomers could still play a role regardless of synthesis.  Regardless, I have proof positive right in front of me that the stuff sold as pure MDMA today is night and day to old school.  Sorry.

Le Junk


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## Neithman

well you live in north america,the worst country to take mdma,its insanely overpriced in the Us and quality is horrible most of the time.You probably got counterfeit Teslas,as they are popular in the us,because some vendors imported them in large quantities from the netherlands.
Middle europe is basically flooded with cheap,high quality mdma from holland and you dont even need to have very good connections to get TRUE 200mg+ pills,because there so many 200 mg presses from hollands(gold bars,dominos,supermans,party flocks,buggatis,androids,+-s etc etc )
Also it is common knowledge that many pills from the 90s was actually mdma+mda which is not like pure mdma.
Pure mdma is more sedating and mongy but still incredibly euphoric but not that good for raves because it misses the push mda has.
I prefer mda for raves much more than mdma because you really go HARD on pure mda 
So you cant complain about the quality of MDMA(well you can,because the quality you get in us is shitty,like 20-30%) when you actually took a mixture of two drugs back then


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## Clocktower

Le Junk said:


> I have proof positive right in front of me that *some of* the stuff sold as pure mdma today is night and day to old school.



ftfy


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## Dracarys

I once spoke to a 'manufacturer'. He told me that adding all kinds of stuff (mostly caffeïne and amfetamine-like stimulants) is sort of standard practice these days, and that from a commercial perspective it would actually not make sense, not to add something like caffeïne, wich is cheap, legal and unmonitored. But even a substance like caffeïne adds to side-effects like dehydration.
When MDMA and MDEA where still legal, the opposite was true, and it wouldn't have made sense, economically to sell impure stuff, because it would have been inferior to all the other _legal _stuff out there.

In the nineties there was an abundance of legal MDEA, and most of the MDMA people bought was actually MDEA. But pure MDEA is almost as good as MDMA. A little more speedy though.


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## Le Junk

Neithman said:


> well you live in north america,the worst country to take mdma,its insanely overpriced in the Us and quality is horrible most of the time.You probably got counterfeit Teslas,as they are popular in the us,because some vendors imported them in large quantities from the netherlands.
> Middle europe is basically flooded with cheap,high quality mdma from holland and you dont even need to have very good connections to get TRUE 200mg+ pills,because there so many 200 mg presses from hollands(gold bars,dominos,supermans,party flocks,buggatis,androids,+-s etc etc )
> Also it is common knowledge that many pills from the 90s was actually mdma+mda which is not like pure mdma.
> Pure mdma is more sedating and mongy but still incredibly euphoric but not that good for raves because it misses the push mda has.
> I prefer mda for raves much more than mdma because you really go HARD on pure mda
> So you cant complain about the quality of MDMA(well you can,because the quality you get in us is shitty,like 20-30%) when you actually took a mixture of two drugs back then



Well I certainly appreciate your input and opinions as to my past experiences, but you're wrong on pretty much everything my friend.  One, I didn't get counterfeit Tesla's.  I'm the one that sent the Tesla sample into ecstasydata.  So yes, they're pure MDMA and yes, they suck.  I would suspect like most MDMA today.  In addition, the reason why current samples of pure TRUE MDMA, as you put it, have such high mg.s is due to the fact they're made thru a different synthesis than in the past.  Since they now favor the R isomer over the S isomer, they need to increase the amount of mg.s to make up for them sucking so bad.  And as far as common knowledge that the pills in the 90's were a mix of MDMA and MDA, I would have no idea since I didn't consume them.  Since I've always had the same connection for outstanding quality MDMA crystalline powder since the late '80's, I've never had any use for street pills.  However, the legal MDMA pills I did in the mid-80's were just MDMA only and had the same exact buzz as my bleach white crystalline powder.  So, as far as my past is concerned, I've only done MDMA only.  The old school MDMA (which I still have access to today) and is outstanding and the new school MDMA (Teslas, Snapchats, etc) that suck.  And by suck, I mean lethargic, non-euphoric and non-sexual with a crackhead comedown and MDA hangover the following day.  Party.


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## Neithman

Le Junk said:


> Well I certainly appreciate your input and opinions as to my past experiences, but you're wrong on pretty much everything my friend.  One, I didn't get counterfeit Tesla's.  I'm the one that sent the Tesla sample into ecstasydata.  So yes, they're pure MDMA and yes, they suck.  I would suspect like most MDMA today.  In addition, the reason why current samples of pure TRUE MDMA, as you put it, have such high mg.s is due to the fact they're made thru a different synthesis than in the past.  Since they now favor the R isomer over the S isomer, they need to increase the amount of mg.s to make up for them sucking so bad.  And as far as common knowledge that the pills in the 90's were a mix of MDMA and MDA, I would have no idea since I didn't consume them.  Since I've always had the same connection for outstanding quality MDMA crystalline powder since the late '80's, I've never had any use for street pills.  However, the legal MDMA pills I did in the mid-80's were just MDMA only and had the same exact buzz as my bleach white crystalline powder.  So, as far as my past is concerned, I've only done MDMA only.  The old school MDMA (which I still have access to today) and is outstanding and the new school MDMA (Teslas, Snapchats, etc) that suck.  And by suck, I mean lethargic, non-euphoric and non-sexual with a crackhead comedown and MDA hangover the following day.  Party.



how do you know they favor the r isomer nowadays?As far as my chemistry knowledge goes i know that isomer specific synthesis is more costly and more difficult to make so i cant think why they would bother with that,exspecially when its known that the s isomer produces more desireable effects
Maybe your tolerance has just grown over the years,because you build tolerance to mdma,even if you only take it twice a year


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## Itsgoneundertheboa

Neithman said:


> how do you know they favor the r isomer nowadays?As far as my chemistry knowledge goes i know that isomer specific synthesis is more costly and more difficult to make so i cant think why they would bother with that,exspecially when its known that the s isomer produces more desireable effects
> Maybe your tolerance has just grown over the years,because you build tolerance to mdma,even if you only take it twice a year



You are correct re isomer in theory. By traditional methods both the S and R will be produced in equal amount so by the original synthesis you get 50/50.

There are two theories 
1. The labs originally were performing chiral to favour S. Because it gave a better product. 80 - 90s MDMA manufacture was centred towards a niche market and production was far easier than today (watched ingredients better LE understanding etc has led to more clandestine manufacture which will always favour the fastest possible turnaround big bucks approach).

2. The move to faster manufacture new methods, precursors etc. IE one pot reaction and the new catalyst packages have introduced far more stereoselective end result. Now R is in a much higher ratio than the original 50/50

3. A bit of both 

One point Le Junk has made and I also make is that direct comparison test (forgetting totally anecdotal rose tinted glasses MD was better back then debates) repeated and also confirmed by others doing the same  (including noobs to MD) highlight the effect of MDMA varies even when product has been GC / MS verified and the purity theoretically the same. IE no other active ingredients. 

What Le Junk is ACTUALLY saying;

He has two samples VERIFIED by GC / MS. 

On ingestion one is as he would expect from his experiences the other is a different high. Yes it's a personal experience, yes MD high differs but he is saying the two highs HE experiences TODAY are different. Set setting tolerance et al. 

Having repeated and having continually gained the effect he seeks from one sample he can only conclude the other sample is of a differing manufacture method because it does not deliver to expectation.

So it kind of blows apart this tolerance set and setting debate. 

I also confirm along with many others who have run similar experiments including new to MD participants blind tests that they report the same. 

There are many variants of MD and the variation of high some MD gives NOW not just historically. 

As Le Junk says good stuff is still around but the Dutch super pills result in a more Lethargic and introverted result with a much shorter plateau. 

If Le junk had not experienced anything else he would be in the don't be silly camp. He would be rolling balls on fire pills and loving it because he had no memory to compare against his other experiences.

There is one flaw in Le Junks science approach and that is dose. Dose appears to be not controlled in his experiments. 

However if the test lab result gave an mg content of the Tesla he could weigh the Tesla gross crush the pill up finely;

A) these days it is common to have large crystal chunks in pills as a marketing ploy. Crushing to powder remove potential variance.

B) crushed because this will mitigate the potential difference between a tightly packed pill with an enteric coating against a powder which will be more readily broken down and absorbed IE there has to be no variation in samples taken. 

Then weigh out the desired dose gross / net to directly compare against that of the other powder sample. 

Failing mg result a direct dose comparison can not be done and results again move into the realm of anecdotal. 

However the Tesla could again be crushed up and then a gradual increase of dose starting at say 100 mg of the powder which would probably equate to 50 mg. Dutch pills have a 50/50 ratio filler to MD, you can check by seeing results from a lot of labs who weigh total weight and then content. Then over the course of a few months gradually increase dose. He may well find that it is simply the dose but from personal experiment I have found that there is still very distinct differences even at much lower dose and that the threshold dose appears much higher on the Dutch pills tested. IE on the experience I seek it takes much less; around 60 - 70 mg to be getting threshold effects and my preference is 130 - 150 mg per experience.  On these Dutch its upward of 100 mg threshold and moving into realms I would of thought (and Shulgin) stupid at 200 to 250 mg per experience. 

Again if you do want to refer to history pills never were in the + 200 mg. usually 80 - 130 mg were a very good pill in the 90s. I also find the same today when the MD is what I would call the Shulgin experience.


----------



## Dracarys

[MENTION=145156]LeJunk[/MENTION]. What's yout opinion about MDEA? Many of the same labs that produced MDMA in the 80's, shifted towards MDEA production, after MDMA got banned. Their MDEA probably had the same isomer ratio as that of good quality MDMA, because it where the same people making it. 
Opinion on MDEA varies hugely i noticed. Some people found it virtually the same as MDMA, others found it inferior to MDMA, and yet others like myself found it different but not nessecarily inferior to MDMA. 
I think that most people who claim to have had real MDMA in the 90's, probably had just realy good quality MDEA.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

Dracarys said:


> [MENTION=145156]LeJunk[/MENTION]. What's yout opinion about MDEA? Many of the same labs that produced MDMA in the 80's, shifted towards MDEA production, after MDMA got banned. Their MDEA probably had the same isomer ratio as that of good quality MDMA, because it where the same people making it.
> Opinion on MDEA varies hugely i noticed. Some people found it virtually the same as MDMA, others found it inferior to MDMA, and yet others like myself found it different but not nessecarily inferior to MDMA.
> I think that most people who claim to have had real MDMA in the 90's, probably had just realy good quality MDEA.



Agree MDEA was noticeably different. Lower energy more a sit experience some empathy but not as strong as MDMA and shorter. Feeling a little drunk. Still nice but different. Possibly comparable to super pill high from a Dutch press.

There was a study done via ecstacy data some testing by Nick Saunders that actually analysed pills, albeit a bit late on from the "golden age" and you are correct MDEA featured highly  

http://www.ecstasy.org/testing/

Ive personally evaluated a theory and I agree that a lot of people who thought they were taking MDMA were taking MDEA. MDA was always easier to spot aka Snowballs from govt labs in Eastern Europe. 

But let's not lose sight of what Le Junk and I also want to know. Why 2 samples of supposed verified MDMA are so different ?


----------



## One Thousand Words

Around twelve months ago I stumbled upon an 8ball of MDMA during a mix up with a Coke connect. I am a rave child of the 90's and have also noticed a big difference in the effects of MDMA, especially since the early 2000's (around the time of the saffrole crack down).

I instantly noticed the difference. The old familiar aniseed smell was the first thing as well as a far greater empathetic experience. My partner who doesn't use, and is also my designated driver commented on how it must be good because I was noticeably more chatty and high. 

I scooted back to my source to see if I could grab more but unfortunately it was all gone. I since found out it was a small boutique batch manufactured by someone, who I'm safe to assume got their hands on a small amount of saffrole oil for an old school cook. I still have access to plenty of imported Dutch pills that are currently doing the rounds here, and while they are strong, there is a huge difference in my nights compared to this 8 ball.

I've bundled up the last half gram for a rainy day and for now I'll pass my time with the imports that are going around, which are at least a vast improvement of many of the shit pills that were being passed off as ecstasy 4-5 years ago. Hopefully some clever types will discover that a market exists for savvy connosouirs of saffrole MDMA and make the effort more often. Personally I'd pay the extra premium for such a product again.


----------



## consumer

One Thousand Words said:


> Around twelve months ago I stumbled upon an 8ball of MDMA during a mix up with a Coke connect. I am a rave child of the 90's and have also noticed a big difference in the effects of MDMA, especially since the early 2000's (around the time of the saffrole crack down).
> 
> I instantly noticed the difference. The old familiar aniseed smell was the first thing as well as a far greater empathetic experience. My partner who doesn't use, and is also my designated driver commented on how it must be good because I was noticeably more chatty and high.
> 
> I scooted back to my source to see if I could grab more but unfortunately it was all gone. I since found out it was a small boutique batch manufactured by someone, who I'm safe to assume got their hands on a small amount of saffrole oil for an old school cook. I still have access to plenty of imported Dutch pills that are currently doing the rounds here, and while they are strong, there is a huge difference in my nights compared to this 8 ball.
> 
> I've bundled up the last half gram for a rainy day and for now I'll pass my time with the imports that are going around, which are at least a vast improvement of many of the shit pills that were being passed off as ecstasy 4-5 years ago. Hopefully some clever types will discover that a market exists for savvy connosouirs of saffrole MDMA and make the effort more often. Personally I'd pay the extra premium for such a product again.


There are batches made in Australia from safrole extracted from camphor laurel trees. I think these batches only circulate in certain areas / scenes of which i wont elaborate on.


----------



## One Thousand Words

Yeah I'm guessing these folks have access to litres not drums


----------



## consumer

One Thousand Words said:


> Yeah I'm guessing these folks have access to litres not drums


Yes definitely not mass production but the MDMA available in circles i know is always safrole based. I dont think any leaves that area / scene


----------



## Dresden

You just have to chew up the new pills.  Nothing's wrong with them.


----------



## Le Junk

Dresden said:


> You just have to chew up the new pills.  Nothing's wrong with them.



Incorrect.  I chewed the pills up my friend.  There's definitely something wrong with them, trust me.

I guess I should have prefaced my original post with you must have done ecstasy pre-2000 to be able to answer about the difference or not.  For example, if you have nothing to compare to todays high dose Dutch pills, you probably just assume you're doing excellent quality.  Unfortunately, this couldn't be farther from the truth.

And in answer to dracarys question about MDEA VS. MDMA, I did have the chance to try some MDEA in the mid-90's.  I found the experience to be quite lethargic, semi non-euphoric, semi-sexual, kinda drunk feeling like Itsgoneundertheboa said.  Basically, not good compared to high quality MDMA.


----------



## Biscuit

I am privy to the results of hundreds of lab test results of "ecstasy" pills seized in Western Australia from about 1998 to 2005. Of the pills which contained an MDXX substance, virtually all of them contained MDMA, with some MDA and almost no MDEA. MDMA and MDA combos did occasionally crop up, but it was a rarity. The most common other substance found in the MDXX pills was caffeine, which may well have assisted people to have a less mongy high. I note it seems quite rare to find caffeine included in MDMA pills these days.

The dosages of MDMA in the pills varied significantly, from about 40mg up to 153mg - being the mighty yellow panda. Most pills would have been in the 70 to 120mg range. Anything over 120mg was rare. Many of the pills which had been tested I had also consumed myself in my glory days of MDMA use and dance parties. The results I came across of the pills which I considered to be good ones accorded entirely with my experience. Anything dosed at 100-120mg was a guaranteed awesome experience, as it should always be with that amount of good quality and no doubt racemic MDMA. 

As I said in another thread, all that is required is for a forensic chemist to test the isomer ratio of a few selected pills and powders and it will become quickly apparent whether the theory is correct or not. Such testing can be done and is routinely done for certain purposes connected with drug investigations; it is just that it is not generally necessary when determining what substances are contained in a pill and in what quantities. 

I personally do not believe that in the "old days", the production of the S isomer was favoured. In what way was this done? All the earlier processes are known to have produced racemic MDMA and studies in the 90s confirmed that users actually preferred the racemate to pure S isomer, even though it was accepted the pure S was far more potent than pure R and obviously slightly more potent than the racemic mix. Therefore, I cannot see why producers would have bothered trying to separate the two isomers post production, a complex and difficult process for any substance. 

Regardless of whether the above is correct or not, I am another who believes that there are MDMA production methods currently being employed, most likely by those individuals producing the "superdosed", gimmicky pills which have flooded the market for the past 3-4 years, which do produce the R isomer entirely or at least favour the R isomer over the S. 

There is no question that racemic MDMA can and should still be made if people could be bothered; whether MD-P2P (aka PMK; the true precursor for racemic MDMA) is made via safrole, piperonal or even PMK-glycidate (MD-P2P being an achiral compound unlike the glycidate; and which, once properly extracted and purified, would still produce racemic MDMA via typical reductive amination processes), it simply doesn't matter. It is, at the end of the day, obviously about money and keeping the costs of MDMA production low. Yes, the shortages of safrole and piperonal are obviously contributing factors, but where there is a will there is a way and this new precursor didn't have to mean the end of quality MDMA as we know it. There is no reason that I can see, other than money, why the mega labs couldn't put it right again.


----------



## Dresden

MDE was semi-common at raves in the early to mid 1990s until it too (along with MDA and MDMA) was banned in the Nederlands.  I took it once in 1996, and found it to be wholly smacky and enjoyable but not as a dance drug.  Also, it only lasted me 1.5 hours.  But, to answer your question LeJunk, I started taking MDMA in 1996 or 1997 and ate hundreds of pressed and powdered MDMA samples before 2000, so your new qualification doesn't exclude me from this discussion in the least.  Also, there is nearly zero percent chance that the new pills are enantiomerically pure, either as R or S.  A simple analog, hand held polarimeter reading of a sample or 100 of this new MDMA would settle that issue for good if we got wind of it.  MDMA is best when left as a racemate, and that is also the form you get when you react PMK with MeNH2 in a reductive amination.  

The new presses I've been getting are still enjoyable, but only a fraction as good as the good pills I got in the 90s.  However, I chalk this up to my brain's biochemistry and/or morphology having been changed by the drug.  Perhaps you should too, LeJunk, except you claim to be able to still get the fire MDMA now too.  That might just be a placebo thing buttressed by years of taking that other old skool stuff, I dunno.  I suppose there could be an intrinsic though latent property of the new MDMA's having been synthesized by its newfound synthesis from *PLEASE DO NOT SHARE THIS IF YOU KNOW IT* instead of the natural product, safrole--which is extracted from the Sassafras' tree's root bark harvested at the right time of the year, but that is just speculation as of this point.  

Biscuit, would you mind not sharing with the internet the new precursor's identity?   I would like to enjoy my rolls for a longer period of time before said precursor inevitably gets banned.  Talking about relatively secret new precursors like that on a public drug bullentin board frequented by law enforcement is just stupid.  Besides, chemistry discussion is supposed to be verboten anywhere on bluelight.  Thanks, man.


----------



## Dracarys

It could also be that different salt forms have different effects. I don't see why all of a sudden, manufacturers would start producing a different salt forms, but it could be an explanation. Impurities could also explain differences in quality. The impurities hypothesis is more plausible even, when you think that different chemicals are being used today. When your product is 98% pure, you can still ingest several milligrams of some toxic. That can definately affect your experience. Compare psilocybe cyanescens with p.cubensis. Just some minor toxins, wholy different experience (cyanescens being far superior).


----------



## some dude

I might be off base, but it just seems like Le Junk gets good powder, and the pills he got are not good. Hence the shitty roll. There are fake pills, and I wasn't sure if you tested your pills, or just relied on test results from a similar looking pill that was not from your batch. 

You could get another batch of the same pills from a different source, and they could be legit and the bomb. right?


----------



## Brenner

some dude said:


> I might be off base, but it just seems like Le Junk gets good powder, and the pills he got are not good. Hence the shitty roll. There are fake pills, and I wasn't sure if you tested your pills, or just relied on test results from a similar looking pill that was not from your batch.
> 
> You could get another batch of the same pills from a different source, and they could be legit and the bomb. right?



Nope Le Junk is correct, the MDMA experience these days is VERY different. I've had both the recent stuff and a saved 90's pill. 90's pill blew the recent stuff away by miles, lasted longer, much much better experience.


----------



## Biscuit

> Biscuit, would you mind not sharing with the internet the new precursor's identity? I would like to enjoy my rolls for a longer period of time before said precursor inevitably gets banned. Talking about relatively secret new precursors like that on a public drug bullentin board frequented by law enforcement is just stupid. Besides, chemistry discussion is supposed to be verboten anywhere on bluelight.



Synthesis discussion is banned but surely basic chemistry discussion is entirely warranted, especially given the wide ranging relevance of this topic in particular. I can assure you, reference to the identity of precursors involved in illicit drug manufacture could never provide enough information to enable those reading the posts to engage in manufacture themselves. Further, a greater level of understanding of chemistry in most drug users will only help that user to develop better harm reduction strategies for themselves and their friends. 

As for your point about me making public some supposed classified and top secret information regarding the precursor's identity, law enforcement the world over already knows all about it. They have known about this for years, long before it was being discussed on Bluelight. You can find specific mention of it in the Australian Crime Commission's Annual Report on illicit drugs from a couple of years ago. Heck, even friggin Mixmag knows about it, having named it in an article they published last year. 

Trust me, when it comes to these more global and widespread "trade secrets", law enforcement knows pretty much everything and far more than almost anyone on here.


----------



## Le Junk

Brenner said:


> Nope Le Junk is correct, the MDMA experience these days is VERY different. I've had both the recent stuff and a saved 90's pill. 90's pill blew the recent stuff away by miles, lasted longer, much much better experience.



Brenner is 100% correct and I'm sorry some dude, but I sent my POS red Supreme into ecstasydata for lab testing.  It came back as 100% pure MDMA, but it completely sucks.  I guess it all boils down to, if you haven't done the real thing MDMA (pre-2001), you can only assume you're doing the real thing nowadays.  In other words, if you've never done great ecstasy, you have nothing to compare to the crap MDMA you're doing today.

Le Junk


----------



## Lil Smack

I would definitely get the Supreme's tested. I'm going to go out on a very short limb, and say that it was a counterfeit pill. I haven't been taking ecstasy as long as you, but I took them in the 90's and I've also been fortunate enough to have tried the Supreme's. If you had taken authentic Supreme's, I honestly find it impossible that you would have gotten tired (I believe that's the word you used, sorry if I'm off).


----------



## Bass Melody

We used to get the good stuff here in Atlantic Canada until 2005/06. I found it once again from a small local chemist-made batch in either 2009/2010. 

The available MDMA (pills, powder, caps, black sass - whatever) is not the same. I never changed how I used it over the years, and after no good experiences between 2006 until 2009/10 when I got those couple capsules of what I remember as MDMA, and I re-experienced what I remember from pre-2006, so it's not loss of magic. 

My first pill was July 2000. And it was exactly the way you would expect - I was out-going (I am naturally very shy), I wanted to DANCE!, I thought I had an ESP moment with someone I just met, was high in 15 minutes, and it lasted 8 hours after which I could sleep easily. I felt no crack-out the next day, just very centered. I made becoming a trance dj my night-job, and went out 4 nights a week (but only dosed maybe 4 times a year). I made friendships that endure to this day. And I had nights where I disclosed feelings/opinions I later regretted sharing, and plans with someone I would never speak to again. I behaved with, and felt subjectively, the specific empathy and TRUE euphoria MDMA provides. I've also taken MDA, and caffeine, ephedrine and amphetamine, all separately and in combo in my previous pill experiences, so as much as anyone can "tell the difference" in their pills, these all feel slightly different to me, and VERY different from what is on the market today - be it local street powder, or Dutch import pills. It's not right. It's just not. 

I especially agree with what Biscuit has said. And why. But we need proof.


----------



## topgunner19

Funny.   I know a guy who complains about he then and now!    He says the losing the magic and tolerance is bullshit.  The old school m is much better etc.   He thinks all conspiracy on this is from evil Feds that don't want us to have the real stuff.    He goes on and on
However.  The R vs s isomer argument fascinates me.    
Anyone care to comment factual data to support.     There's good detail on ALA.  alpha lipoid acid.   And on real absorption bioavailability. Vs the R or s. Type


----------



## Clocktower

Le Junk said:


> I sent my POS red Supreme into ecstasydata for lab testing.  It came back as 100% pure MDMA, but it completely sucks.



Did ecstasydata tell you the MDMA content of the pill in milligrams? I mean, it must contain SOME binder.


----------



## MonoThom

Why was the speed / MDMA / pills better ten years ago? Because your serotonin system was better ten years ago. 

I am now officially old enough to say that people who are 30 now complain that the pills were magic 10 years ago,  when the 40 years old were complaining how they were shit compared to the pills they had ten years prior. 

It's like being a 85 year old dude with a shrivel dick complaining that the women used to be hotter. 

"Back in the days, shit was way better..." usually means you are officially old 

Exception maybe for the "Speed from Poland"-legend. They had a lot of Pervitin going over and under the counter, which is methamphetamine. It ended up fortifying the amph sulphate.


----------



## MonoThom

I've read so much denial of the obvious in fora across the internet that I actually also think MDMA fucks with your ability to think straight about MDMA. I myself have only given up on it after a ton of bad experiences.


----------



## consumer

Dresden said:


> MDE was semi-common at raves in the early to mid 1990s until it too (along with MDA and MDMA) was banned in the Nederlands.  I took it once in 1996, and found it to be wholly smacky and enjoyable but not as a dance drug.  Also, it only lasted me 1.5 hours.  But, to answer your question LeJunk, I started taking MDMA in 1996 or 1997 and ate hundreds of pressed and powdered MDMA samples before 2000, so your new qualification doesn't exclude me from this discussion in the least.  Also, there is nearly zero percent chance that the new pills are enantiomerically pure, either as R or S.  A simple analog, hand held polarimeter reading of a sample or 100 of this new MDMA would settle that issue for good if we got wind of it.  MDMA is best when left as a racemate, and that is also the form you get when you react PMK with MeNH2 in a reductive amination.
> 
> The new presses I've been getting are still enjoyable, but only a fraction as good as the good pills I got in the 90s.  However, I chalk this up to my brain's biochemistry and/or morphology having been changed by the drug.  Perhaps you should too, LeJunk, except you claim to be able to still get the fire MDMA now too.  That might just be a placebo thing buttressed by years of taking that other old skool stuff, I dunno.  I suppose there could be an intrinsic though latent property of the new MDMA's having been synthesized by its newfound synthesis from *PLEASE DO NOT SHARE THIS IF YOU KNOW IT* instead of the natural product, safrole--which is extracted from the Sassafras' tree's root bark harvested at the right time of the year, but that is just speculation as of this point.
> 
> Biscuit, would you mind not sharing with the internet the new precursor's identity?   I would like to enjoy my rolls for a longer period of time before said precursor inevitably gets banned.  Talking about relatively secret new precursors like that on a public drug bullentin board frequented by law enforcement is just stupid.  Besides, chemistry discussion is supposed to be verboten anywhere on bluelight.  Thanks, man.


Lol at keeping glycidate a secret. You need to get out more and read. Its common knowledge.


----------



## MonoThom

Haha, that will without any doubt convince everyone there is that legendary stuff after all. The tan version. Dresden = John McAfee, trolling.


----------



## MonoThom

Look at what you are writing here, man. It turns out to be 100% MDMA. And that cannot convince you. You are now officially a religious XTC nutter.


----------



## MonoThom

Why don't you people go into the speed threads and observe the speedfreaks from yesteryear are all having the same discussion? Must be a conspiracy.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

^ lol. I thought it is proven speed or at least amphetamine sulphate quality is nowhere to that of the late 80 early 90s? 

I've said it once so I'll say it again this thread isn't MDMA was so much better in the old days it's more - there is a remarkable difference in MDMA today even when said MDMA comes back as pure. But everyone appears to not want to actually read context and make presumption.

Although maybe Le Junk is doing a mc fee as the pill he got tested changed from a tesla into a supreme over the course of a couple of weeks? ??


----------



## Dracarys

Le Junk said:


> Brenner is 100% correct and I'm sorry some dude, but I sent my POS red Supreme into ecstasydata for lab testing.  It came back as 100% pure MDMA, but it completely sucks.  I guess it all boils down to, if you haven't done the real thing MDMA (pre-2001), you can only assume you're doing the real thing nowadays.  In other words, if you've never done great ecstasy, you have nothing to compare to the crap MDMA you're doing today.
> 
> Le Junk


There is no such thing as 100% purity. It's Always 98%, 99%, or 99.something%. If today's MDMA is made with different chemicals, how can you be sure that differences in quality aren't the result of minute traces of toxic by-products or residue, that simply wheren't present in the MDMA of the 80's and early 90's.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

Ive actually read this thread and le junk posts, unlike most people replying to it...either that or they have no reading comprehension.

The most likely source of the phenomena he observes is good ole placebo.  Placebo is strong enough to make people thing they took morphine (and even mdma)....this is all backed by science.  He would need to do a double blind study on himself with the pressed pills and white powder taking one and not knowing which it was.

Some people are throwing around the idea of a non 50 50 enantiomeric ratio.  This could only happen in most clandestine synths if you have something chiral (an impurity) causing one of the reactions to preferably form either enantiomer.  This is much more likely in the safrole synth I would have to guess, maybe there is some other chiral compound that gets distilled with safrol oil (not chiral) and causes an excess of R or S to be formed.  Maybe a reagent use in the synth is chiral (which I doubt since its all very simple chemistry)


----------



## oldskoolroller

[MENTION=145156]LeJunk[/MENTION] , haven't seen you post in a long time .

 I thought the same thing ( ate my first roll around 94 in S. Louisiana ) so I took my holland import pills and powder and stored them away . Roughly 24 months of sobriety later and still none of  the true rolling feeling that you describe.  I really miss that clean, floating on air , loved up roll . The day after was always my favorite !

 I do think age and stress does effect our serotonin levels . However , I don't here anyone describe rolling like pre 2000. I would trade all my personal stash for just 2 of those rolls !


----------



## Limey

The orange teslas were ok, but I can assure you they are definitely nowhere near as good as the mitzubishes I had in 97. I found one a few weeks ago in an old mix cd, and the experience was equally as blissful as it was almost 20 years ago. So there goes your brain chemistry is different etc etc  as you get older and all that bullshit. 
Here are the differences - 
Mitzubishes - huge pupils, blissed out feeling ... on top of world, extroverted and wanting to chat to everybody
Teslas - slightly dilated pupils, slight euphoria, relaxed feeling, slept like a baby. However did not particularly feel loved up or extroverted like on the mitzubishes. 
However, I slept like a baby on the teslas and didn't feel cracked out at all, but the snapchats felt like a meth comedown (I stupidly took three of those because they didn't seem to be working, and all I got was a speedy buzz) All of my pills tested very well with marquis, and I don't believe my teslas were copycats as they had that trademark glow under uv light and tested purple with marquis.


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

Le Junk said:


> Brenner is 100% correct and I'm sorry some dude, but I sent my POS red Supreme into ecstasydata for lab testing.  It came back as 100% pure MDMA, but it completely sucks.  I guess it all boils down to, if you haven't done the real thing MDMA (pre-2001), you can only assume you're doing the real thing nowadays.  In other words, if you've never done great ecstasy, you have nothing to compare to the crap MDMA you're doing today.
> 
> Le Junk



I've never taken MDMA/MDA, etc. or any drugs or stimulants like it; but it sounds like this is nostalgia, or the "You had to be there...or you missed out" mentality, and maybe set/setting and you have the mentality that "MDMA in pressed pill format sucks but it's great in powder form", and you did admit that sometimes you would take pressed pills without testing them.

I've seen people do this with other drugs like cannabis/hash, cocaine both medical grade coke and stuff people bought from dealers in the 70s and 80s, acid, Pharmaceutical based amphetamine/Pharmaceutical grade methamphetamine, and opiates. Again it's nostalgia combined with placebo, or when they think back to when the experience was new to them.


----------



## Brenner

Limey said:


> The orange teslas were ok, but I can assure you they are definitely nowhere near as good as the mitzubishes I had in 97. I found one a few weeks ago in an old mix cd, and the experience was equally as blissful as it was almost 20 years ago. So there goes your brain chemistry is different etc etc  as you get older and all that bullshit.
> Here are the differences -
> Mitzubishes - huge pupils, blissed out feeling ... on top of world, extroverted and wanting to chat to everybody
> Teslas - slightly dilated pupils, slight euphoria, relaxed feeling, slept like a baby. However did not particularly feel loved up or extroverted like on the mitzubishes.
> However, I slept like a baby on the teslas and didn't feel cracked out at all, but the snapchats felt like a meth comedown (I stupidly took three of those because they didn't seem to be working, and all I got was a speedy buzz) All of my pills tested very well with marquis, and I don't believe my teslas were copycats as they had that trademark glow under uv light and tested purple with marquis.



Dam man wish you'd have mentioned you'd found an old 90s pill before consuming it, We need to get some clear photos of the reagent tests to confirm the theory that marquis goes purple rather than black. Long shot but any chance you might have another hidden away somewhere?


----------



## Le Junk

MonoThom said:


> Look at what you are writing here, man. It turns out to be 100% MDMA. And that cannot convince you. You are now officially a religious XTC nutter.



I would believe I was a "nutter" too if I didn't have the same MDMA powder I've had since the late 80's available to me as well.  I currently have the lab tested red supremes, lab tested orange teslas and my old school MDMA powder.  Both pills are junk (or what current users today would consider to be excellent yet have no experience of pre-2000 ecstasy) and my MDMA powder which is still just as good as it was in 1988.  It has never changed in quality.  I give the powder to friends and they're melting into one another, opening up about things they never thought they could talk about, having sex all night, talking for hours, rubbing on one another, never feeling amped out or gittery, have no bad comedowns whatsoever and wake up feeling like champions and spend the entire next day feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  When they do the pills, it's 15-20 minutes of euphoria followed by some massive eye wiggles followed by confusion, amped out, non-lovey dovey, cracked out comedown and then sleep.  They wake up still feeling very high and not in a good way.  The remainder of the day is just plain cracked/meth'd out.  They are not the same, sorry my friend.  I have the proof right in front of me.


----------



## Le Junk

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> ^ lol. I thought it is proven speed or at least amphetamine sulphate quality is nowhere to that of the late 80 early 90s?
> 
> I've said it once so I'll say it again this thread isn't MDMA was so much better in the old days it's more - there is a remarkable difference in MDMA today even when said MDMA comes back as pure. But everyone appears to not want to actually read context and make presumption.
> 
> Although maybe Le Junk is doing a mc fee as the pill he got tested changed from a tesla into a supreme over the course of a couple of weeks? &#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56841;



Lol, I said I had both the Teslas and the red Supremes on hand.  But the only one I actually sent in for testing is the red Supreme


----------



## Le Junk

oldskoolroller said:


> [MENTION=145156]LeJunk[/MENTION] , haven't seen you post in a long time .
> 
> I thought the same thing ( ate my first roll around 94 in S. Louisiana ) so I took my holland import pills and powder and stored them away . Roughly 24 months of sobriety later and still none of  the true rolling feeling that you describe.  I really miss that clean, floating on air , loved up roll . The day after was always my favorite !
> 
> I do think age and stress does effect our serotonin levels . However , I don't here anyone describe rolling like pre 2000. I would trade all my personal stash for just 2 of those rolls !



Agreed 100%!  I always see people describing they're comedowns on todays lab tested stuff as sketchy, trouble sleeping etc.  On the old school stuff there was never any bad comedowns, no cracked out feelings, you always fell asleep like a baby and the next day was always incredible.  I don't see anyone talking like that about todays stuff.


----------



## Le Junk

Limey said:


> The orange teslas were ok, but I can assure you they are definitely nowhere near as good as the mitzubishes I had in 97. I found one a few weeks ago in an old mix cd, and the experience was equally as blissful as it was almost 20 years ago. So there goes your brain chemistry is different etc etc  as you get older and all that bullshit.
> Here are the differences -
> Mitzubishes - huge pupils, blissed out feeling ... on top of world, extroverted and wanting to chat to everybody
> Teslas - slightly dilated pupils, slight euphoria, relaxed feeling, slept like a baby. However did not particularly feel loved up or extroverted like on the mitzubishes.
> However, I slept like a baby on the teslas and didn't feel cracked out at all, but the snapchats felt like a meth comedown (I stupidly took three of those because they didn't seem to be working, and all I got was a speedy buzz) All of my pills tested very well with marquis, and I don't believe my teslas were copycats as they had that trademark glow under uv light and tested purple with marquis.



Lol, I remember those Mitsubishi's as well!  I also took them in 97.  And you are 100% correct sir.  If you had 10 more of those bad boys, you could send to everyone in this thread that think it's all a placebo effect we're experiencing.  You could change 10 peoples minds overnight.  End of story.


----------



## Kittycat5

Mitsubishis are the only name I remember from that time period (if I think hard could probably come up with more). I guess I was lucky my MDMA experiences were at a good time as wading through all the junk out there today seems a hassle.

I cant really comment on todays quality as Ive done it once since 2001 but think the comedown thing is more related to bad pills (not MDMA is what I mean) floating around than the quality of the real thing.


----------



## Biscuit

For anyone still doubting the effects which changing the isometric ratio of the S and R isomers in MDMA is going to have, I found this on a web page that had collated a lot of information about phenylethylamines:






http://www.slideshare.net/RyanHemming/the-chemistry-of-mdma-and-various-other-phenethylamines



LucidSDreamr said:


> Some people are throwing around the idea of a non 50 50 enantiomeric ratio.  This could only happen in most clandestine synths if you have something chiral (an impurity) causing one of the reactions to preferably form either enantiomer.  This is much more likely in the safrole synth I would have to guess, maybe there is some other chiral compound that gets distilled with safrol oil (not chiral) and causes an excess of R or S to be formed.  Maybe a reagent use in the synth is chiral (which I doubt since its all very simple chemistry)


I agree with you in principle, however, as has been discussed ad nauseam on here, a new pre-precursor is being used which is chiral and which may well produce non-racemic MDMA if the manufacturers are not first completely extracting and purifying the ketone precursor (this being the immediate precursor to MDMA in virtually all known methods of manufacture, including that which originally starts out with safrole). The other possibility is that when completing the reductive amination of the ketone precursor into MDMA, the manufacturers are now utilising a novel stereoselective catalyst which favours the production of one MDMA isomer over the other; or the continued use of one of the more "ordinary" catalysts/reducing reagents in conjunction with the new chiral pre-precursor, has ended up producing the very same effect (perhaps an entirely unexpected outcome).

The increase in the dosages of these pills is not a coincidence either, something which the above image confirms seems very likely due to the MDMA containing a much greater proportion of the "much less potent" R isomer over the S.


----------



## Swimmingdancer

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> There is one flaw in Le Junks science approach and that is dose. Dose appears to be not controlled in his experiments.


This. Also one being in powder form and one in pill form (even if chewed a little it will still absorb different and contain filler). Also the assumption that the crystalline powder contains nothing other than MDMA is merely an assumption isn't it? Has it been tested recently?



Le Junk said:


> I sent my POS red Supreme into ecstasydata for lab testing.  It came back as 100% pure MDMA



No it didn't. ecstasydata doesn't ever give purity percentages, they are not allowed to by law. All the results said was that it contains MDMA. They dissolve the sample you send in and all sugars, salts, metals, binders/fillers, dyes, etc are excluded from the analysis. If the results just say "MDMA" that only means that there was some MDMA in the pills and no other drugs out of the drugs they are able to detect.


----------



## terarc

This entire thread means nothing at all until someone can get two samples of MDMA, one of this supposedly superior type and one of the inferior type (how do we even decide this in the first place without involving some pre-existing personal preference?) ... then to get someone to dose out each one, adjusted for relative purity of the samples, so the two contain the exact same amount of MDMA.HCl, and have someone try them out double-blind so they don't know which one they're taking. Even then we're gonna need at least a 3 month gap between to ensure the first doesn't affect the second and actually it could be difficult to determine the exact amount of time needed so they don't affect each other at all. It could end up needing such a long gap that then the individual's life having moved on by however long could affect the experience too.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

Biscuit said:


> For anyone still doubting the effects which changing the isometric ratio of the S and R isomers in MDMA is going to have, I found this on a web page that had collated a lot of information about phenylethylamines:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.slideshare.net/RyanHemming/the-chemistry-of-mdma-and-various-other-phenethylamines
> 
> 
> I agree with you in principle, however, as has been discussed ad nauseam on here, a new pre-precursor is being used which is chiral and which may well produce non-racemic MDMA if the manufacturers are not first completely extracting and purifying the ketone precursor (this being the immediate precursor to MDMA in virtually all known methods of manufacture, including that which originally starts out with safrole). The other possibility is that when completing the reductive amination of the ketone precursor into MDMA, the manufacturers are now utilising a novel stereoselective catalyst which favours the production of one MDMA isomer over the other; or the continued use of one of the more "ordinary" catalysts/reducing reagents in conjunction with the new chiral pre-precursor, has ended up producing the very same effect (perhaps an entirely unexpected outcome).
> 
> The increase in the dosages of these pills is not a coincidence either, something which the above image confirms seems very likely due to the MDMA containing a much greater proportion of the "much less potent" R isomer over the S.



I wasn't aware of that new precursor until now but I see what you are saying.  an enantioselective catalyst for the reductive amination seems overkill for a clandestine synth...but maybe someone can suggest a cheap common one that in existence that might be a candidate for this possibility?  I think the possibility of a non enantioselective reductive amination catalyst doing something with a chiral material from the precursor like u said is more likely.  otherwise if the cat itself was enantioselective why couldn't they just pick the chirality that will give the stronger mdma....not the weaker one like its producing....might be a clue that the ligand could be something that cheaply found in one chirality and not the other if this is the case.

All someone has to do is run one of these new pills through a chiral column and tell us the result...i'm sure there are people on here that have access to one and a pill. sadly I have neither these days.


----------



## Brenner

Biscuit said:


> For anyone still doubting the effects which changing the isometric ratio of the S and R isomers in MDMA is going to have, I found this on a web page that had collated a lot of information about phenylethylamines:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.slideshare.net/RyanHemming/the-chemistry-of-mdma-and-various-other-phenethylamines



Excellent post, this would explain why I just don't see those scenes from the 90s anymore where people literally "have" to dance and cant stop moving. The R isomer today is much more of a psychedelic where as the S isomer or racemate mixtures had the stimulant effect too, presumably releasing dopamine etc.

We need racemate or S isomer!!

Also a very good read: http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/isomers.htm


----------



## maddee2145

Limey said:


> The orange teslas were ok, but I can assure you they are definitely nowhere near as good as the mitzubishes I had in 97. I found one a few weeks ago in an old mix cd, and the experience was equally as blissful as it was almost 20 years ago. So there goes your brain chemistry is different etc etc  as you get older and all that bullshit.
> Here are the differences -
> Mitzubishes - huge pupils, blissed out feeling ... on top of world, extroverted and wanting to chat to everybody
> Teslas - slightly dilated pupils, slight euphoria, relaxed feeling, slept like a baby. However did not particularly feel loved up or extroverted like on the mitzubishes.
> However, I slept like a baby on the teslas and didn't feel cracked out at all, but the snapchats felt like a meth comedown (I stupidly took three of those because they didn't seem to be working, and all I got was a speedy buzz) All of my pills tested very well with marquis, and I don't believe my teslas were copycats as they had that trademark glow under uv light and tested purple with marquis.



There are opinion around that back in 90s-00s there was actualy a mix of mda+mdma and those Mitsu too. However I can not say anything bad about quality of nowdays pills. Month ago was eating red coca-cola square wich can be divided into 3. Everything seems very good about it.


----------



## maddee2145

Brenner said:


> Excellent post, this would explain why I just don't see those scenes from the 90s anymore where people literally "have" to dance and cant stop moving. The R isomer today is much more of a psychedelic where as the S isomer or racemate mixtures had the stimulant effect too, presumably releasing dopamine etc.
> 
> We need racemate or S isomer!!


Oh yeah thats are really usefull. Thanks a lot bro.


----------



## Le Junk

Swimmingdancer said:


> This. Also one being in powder form and one in pill form (even if chewed a little it will still absorb different and contain filler). Also the assumption that the crystalline powder contains nothing other than MDMA is merely an assumption isn't it? Has it been tested recently?
> 
> 
> 
> No it didn't. ecstasydata doesn't ever give purity percentages, they are not allowed to by law. All the results said was that it contains MDMA. They dissolve the sample you send in and all sugars, salts, metals, binders/fillers, dyes, etc are excluded from the analysis. If the results just say "MDMA" that only means that there was some MDMA in the pills and no other drugs out of the drugs they are able to detect.



One, as biscuit said up above a few posts back, in addition to even much more useful information, they're not trying to do you a favor by increasing the MDMA mgs in current pills.  There's a specific reason for it.  It's to make up for a lack of potency.

In addressing your comments, yes, I have sent my powder into edata 3 times over the last 15 years or so.  Same results everytime.  MDMA only.  Additionally, the high is the same exact high every single time.  No surprises ever.  Once you've done highly purified, correctly produced MDMA, the high is unmistakable.  I wouldn't even need a test to tell me what I already know, though I did it anyway.


----------



## Le Junk

LucidSDreamr said:


> I wasn't aware of that new precursor until now but I see what you are saying.  an enantioselective catalyst for the reductive amination seems overkill for a clandestine synth...but maybe someone can suggest a cheap common one that in existence that might be a candidate for this possibility?  I think the possibility of a non enantioselective reductive amination catalyst doing something with a chiral material from the precursor like u said is more likely.  otherwise if the cat itself was enantioselective why couldn't they just pick the chirality that will give the stronger mdma....not the weaker one like its producing....might be a clue that the ligand could be something that cheaply found in one chirality and not the other if this is the case.
> 
> All someone has to do is run one of these new pills through a chiral column and tell us the result...i'm sure there are people on here that have access to one and a pill. sadly I have neither these days.



I would gladly donate the pill to someone with a chiral column.


----------



## Swimmingdancer

Le Junk said:


> One, as biscuit said up above a few posts back, in addition to even much more useful information, they're not trying to do you a favor by increasing the MDMA mgs in current pills.  There's a specific reason for it.  It's to make up for a lack of potency.
> 
> In addressing your comments, yes, I have sent my powder into edata 3 times over the last 15 years or so.  Same results everytime.  MDMA only.  Additionally, the high is the same exact high every single time.  No surprises ever.  Once you've done highly purified, correctly produced MDMA, the high is unmistakable.  I wouldn't even need a test to tell me what I already know, though I did it anyway.



What makes you so confident that current pills have a high quantity of MDMA in them? I'm not yet convinced that these weren't just weak pills.


----------



## Brenner

Le Junk said:


> I would gladly donate the pill to someone with a chiral column.



You'd need to donate the pill AND a sample of the better quality MDMA so we can see the difference in result


----------



## oldskoolroller

Something else about modern day mdma . People used to never " loose the magic " . Watched numerous people eat tabs every weekend for years straight,  and always roll every time .


----------



## somnilicious

^ I used to roll every weekend and I most certainly lost the magic. Admittedly abused the hell out of MDMA. It took about 8-12 mths of every weekend abuse before it happened. If I haven't used any MDMA in 16 yrs would I be able to roll again?


----------



## oldskoolroller

[MENTION=253200]somnilicious[/MENTION] , I don't know . I took a 2 year break with a 1 year break before that . Depends on wether you get real mdma , or not . If you decide to roll again please let us know . I would be great to hear if it compares to 16 years ago . That would help with this debate .


----------



## consumer

Ive taken probably over a thousand mdma doses. Since 1989. It still has the magic for me. Not everyone loses the magic


----------



## Ashley

Interesting excerpt from the MDMA entry in PiHKAL below, talking about MDP2P:



> A word of caution is in order concerning the intermediate 3,4-methylene-dioxyphenylacetone, which has also been called piperonylacetone. A devilish ambiguity appeared in the commercial market for this compound, centered about its name. The controversy focused on the meaning of the prefix, piperonyl, which has two separate chemical definitions. Let me try to explain this fascinating chaos in non-chemical terms. Piperonyl is a term that has been used for a two-ring system (the methylenedioxyphenyl group) either without, or with, an extra carbon atom sticking off of the side of it. Thus, piperonylacetone can be piperonyl (the two-ring thing without the extra carbon atom attached) plus acetone (a three carbon chain thing); the total number of carbons sticking out, three. Or, piperonylacetone can be piperonyl (the two-ring thing but with the extra carbon atom attached) plus acetone (a three carbon chain thing); the total number of carbons sticking out, four.
> 
> Does this make sense?
> 
> The three carbon sticking out job gives rise to MDA and to MDMA and to many homologues that are interesting materials discussed at length in these Book II comments. This is the usual item of commerce, available from both domestic and foreign suppliers. But the four-carbon sticking out job will produce totally weird stuff without any apparent relationship to psychedelics, psychoactives or psychotropics whatsoever. I know of one chemical supply house which supplied the weird compound, and they never did acknowledge their unusual use of the term piperonyl. There is a simple difference of properties which might be of value. The three carbon (correct) ketone is an oil with a sassafras smell that is always yellow colored. The four carbon (incorrect) ketone has a weak terpene smell and is white and crystalline. There should be no difficulties in distinguishing these two compounds. But unprincipled charlatans can always add mineral oil and butter yellow to otherwise white solids to make them into yellow oils. Caveat emptor.



My guess would be piperonal would be a more commonly used starting precursor than safrole these days due to its ease of synthesis, however I may be wrong. 

A.


----------



## Pretty_Diamonds

This is a very interesting thread. It's almost like, we, the people, have lost the magic of ecstasy through our ways of processing. :/ 

 [MENTION=145156]LeJunk[/MENTION], you're almost like an e-celebrity. Lmao. Glad to see you posting again. :]


----------



## terarc

I want to see multiple people try this out double blind before I believe anything except that it's placebo. Someone analysing the chirality of the samples and their route of synthesis would be needed too really.


----------



## maddee2145

consumer said:


> Ive taken probably over a thousand mdma doses. Since 1989. It still has the magic for me. Not everyone loses the magic



If you do more than 1000 trips the last 27 years. It means you was on MDMA aprox. every 10 day till now.  8(


----------



## Sen5i

I assume it's just the new ways of it being synthesized..  Safrole is gone, and as I remember all es or MDMA smelt of aniseed now it just all has some awful strong chemical smell.  The affects I got from Two batches of MDMA this year was agitation and anxiaty, and feeling disconnected from everyone, I'm ok at raves because music is on and it makes me forget about being social tbf ha  but I recently put up a post about it I wanna know if people are experiencing the anxiaty side I know a few people have gone crazy onit and going skitzo for the night pretty much..  Not sure about the mda, as as I know with that good MDMA turns into a mda type thing on a comedown where as mda alone is pretty rare to buy and is sposivly really trippy I kinda wanna try it. Also the price has down down shockingly I used to pay £40 for decent stuff now I'm paying £25\30 for crap stuff haha,  I believe dark web is so popular now even with unknowledgable people, who assume just because its on dark web its good, yet there are loads of cheap deals on there a lot of this new MD cheaper MD is coming ffrom there, lol


----------



## consumer

maddee2145 said:


> If you do more than 1000 trips the last 27 years. It means you was on MDMA aprox. every 10 day till now.  8(


Well i didnt keep an exact count. Lets just say a shitload. I abused the fuck out of it for a long time.


----------



## Intense

Anyone with a press can make any pills with any markings/color they want. I've seen it done and it was mostly flour I believe.


A lot of the stuff now is mostly meth/caffeine. But occasionally good mdma can be found. This is in my experience.


----------



## maddee2145

Yea sure man, I also thought before ,that for example 400 or 700 trips are not so much, but it almost all live if you do it 1 in a 2 week. Not so many as we think. Not even 1000  Its nice to hear that magick is not always to be losed. I also feel myself almost as first time everytime.


----------



## ritch

Great thread! I agree with LeJunk on pretty much everything. I live in Montreal and "mdma" here is total bullshit. Same with the speed which is now just meth tabs. 

I started partying in '98. Stopped around 2005ish for a few years. When I came back after that very long break, I noticed how everything just lost it's magic. Even ghb. 

The people who claim today's stuff is good never used real deal versions if it.

End of story.

Thanks to the shittyness of stuff available, I'm now done with with the rave/afterhour scene. This thread makes me feel sooooo nostalgic though as at times, I really miss those days. 

But price wise, it's a joke now. "mdma" is like $3 each now. Anyone dumb enough to believe that is real mdma deserves to be screwed, lol! They were $20-30ish when they were the magic pills discussed by LeJunk.

I have no idea why they don't just make some quality stuff, yet charge more. 

T'ill then, it's weed and nothing but weed for me.


----------



## Img_9999

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> There is one flaw in Le Junks science approach and that is dose. Dose appears to be not controlled in his experiments.




Randomly stumbled across this thread and was gonna chime in to point out this. There's also a difference between the absorption of powder form and pill form. But I think dosage is actually more to blame in this case. You have to take in mind that today pills are dosed ridiculously high most of the time (This is a proven fact, I don't have the link at hand but it's documented somewhere that the dosage in pills have increased in time). The harsher comedown, the inability to sleep, the "feeling high" the next day, the burntout next day feeling, even the "stoned" feeling, and almost everything that Le Junk is saying about the """New""" MDMA, could all be explained by the fact that maybe you are dosing higher than you should, and basically overdoing it. 

Serotonin is to blame for that monged out feeling, as can be evidenced by the fact that empathogens that have a higher serotonin/dopamine release ratio like MDAI or 5-MAPB feel a little stoning. So I guess a high enough dose of MDMA would feel stoning too, but then leave you with a very long residual NE/DA activity, which would explain the next day hangover. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Le Junk

Img_9999 said:


> Randomly stumbled across this thread and was gonna chime in to point out this. There's also a difference between the absorption of powder form and pill form. But I think dosage is actually more to blame in this case. You have to take in mind that today pills are dosed ridiculously high most of the time (This is a proven fact, I don't have the link at hand but it's documented somewhere that the dosage in pills have increased in time). The harsher comedown, the inability to sleep, the "feeling high" the next day, the burntout next day feeling, even the "stoned" feeling, and almost everything that Le Junk is saying about the """New""" MDMA, could all be explained by the fact that maybe you are dosing higher than you should, and basically overdoing it.
> 
> Serotonin is to blame for that monged out feeling, as can be evidenced by the fact that empathogens that have a higher serotonin/dopamine release ratio like MDAI or 5-MAPB feel a little stoning. So I guess a high enough dose of MDMA would feel stoning too, but then leave you with a very long residual NE/DA activity, which would explain the next day hangover.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



I certainly appreciate your thoughts, but I probably should have stated earlier that I've tried both the Supremes and the Tesla's in different dosages.  I've tried everything from starting with a whole and ending with another whole to starting with a 1/4 and ending with another 1/4 to starting with a 1/2 and ending with another 1/2.  The only differences between dosages was at smaller doses they sucked a little bit and at higher doses they sucked a lot.  There was a bad comedown and bad hangover the following day even with the smaller doses.  Here's the deal, if I'd never done outstanding, correctly produced MDMA, I would possibly think this new MDMA is okay.  But to put it in just some basic terms, if the comedown is not good and the next day isn't blissful and heavenly, there's something wrong with the way your MDMA was made.  Someone on here asked for me to do a blind test on the pills and my old school powder.  I've tried that twice now as well as a few friends of mine and it wasn't even a question.  No one guessed incorrectly.  It would be impossible to.  The differences between the new MDMA and my old school bleach white MDMA are not subtle by any means.  They are extremely dramatic and would be considered two completely different drugs if one didn't know better.


----------



## Le Junk

Pretty_Diamonds said:


> This is a very interesting thread. It's almost like, we, the people, have lost the magic of ecstasy through our ways of processing. :/
> 
> [MENTION=145156]LeJunk[/MENTION], you're almost like an e-celebrity. Lmao. Glad to see you posting again. :]



Thanks Pretty_Diamonds.  It's a pleasure to be back.  I've missed you guys.

Le Junk


----------



## Img_9999

Ok, then I have no idea what could be going on, haha


----------



## PotatoMan

consumer said:


> It is a common complaint in EADD. The theory is the precursor being used by the dutch labs creates a different racemic mix of mdma which while being the same chemical is producing mongy non euphoric mdma.



i think this is junk. i've taken bunk 'molly' and i've taken the _mdxx available today_ and the latter has given me a very euphoric, energetic effect.

the ecstasy pills are very highly dosed and with high dosed mdxx i'm definitely very much more relaxed and sleepy as this is what high doses of stimulants do to me.

i haven't taken the mdxx that was available *way back when* but i'm sure i would not have been able to tell a significant difference in the same chemical that i took years ago vs the 'quality' mdxx available *today*.

unless you're lab testing it, you really don't know what's in it so to those who just check for its presence i think you'll just have to embrace the ecstasy wave that's allegedly hitting europe .


----------



## consumer

Blank said:


> i think this is junk. i've taken bunk 'molly' and i've taken the _mdxx available today_ and the latter has given me a very euphoric, energetic effect.
> 
> the ecstasy pills are very highly dosed and with high dosed mdxx i'm definitely very much more relaxed and sleepy as this is what high doses of stimulants do to me.
> 
> i haven't taken the mdxx that was available *way back when* but i'm sure i would not have been able to tell a significant difference in the same chemical that i took years ago vs the 'quality' mdxx available *today*.
> 
> unless you're lab testing it, you really don't know what's in it so to those who just check for its presence i think you'll just have to embrace the ecstasy wave that's allegedly hitting europe .



Well quite a few people disagree with you. People have noticed the more euphoric mdma turns purple then black like it used to back in the day when reagent tested. The super pills turn straight black. Biscuit who has a lot of chemistry knowledge has proposed a few theories why this may be happening the main one is current precurser and production methods are favouring the R isomer rather than racemic MDMA. This would explain the high doses in the pills as the r isomer is less potent and known to produce mongy effects. There is still good mdma out there but there appears to be a lot of not so good stuff coming from Holland too.


----------



## JBrandon

Le Junk, I have a few thoughts. My immediate concern was equal dosage but I see you've addressed that. 

However, if you're taking powder MDMA, you'll have much faster absorption than a pill, even broken. It would need to be turned into a fine powder via mortar and pestle to even come close to the absorption of the powder you're getting. 

Secondly, why not do a double blinded test?

Have a third party toss a ground up pill into a capsule from Whole Foods or wherever, same with an equitable dosage of powder. You can run with it from there. 

The placebo effect is just way too powerful, our preconceptions and prejudices are so much more influential than we believe.


----------



## shugenja

maddee2145 said:


> If you do more than 1000 trips the last 27 years. It means you was on MDMA aprox. every 10 day till now.  8(




The term used was doses not nights.  Lets say 3 doses were used on any given night.

So, 3 doses = 330 nights if none are back to back. That would be approximately once a month.


----------



## shugenja

JBrandon said:


> However, if you're taking powder MDMA, you'll have much faster absorption than a pill, even broken. It would need to be turned into a fine powder via mortar and pestle to even come close to the absorption of the powder you're getting.



Umm -- common misconception.  

The main driver is contents of the stomach -- empty vs full of liquid vs full of food

On an empty stomach, pill simply crushed and swallowed (parachute) will absorb into the body pretty much as fast as a powder in a capsule, because the stomach takes a certain amount of time to empty it's contents.  

The exception is if the powder is dissolved in a liquid. Even then you are only talking a few to maybe 15 minutes difference. Oral absorption is not perturbed by powder vs pill, the only subjective difference is a slightly different come-up.


----------



## terarc

Has OP done a double-blind test on this yet? (Preferably with several participants)

If not, I don't see why this discussion is even continuing


----------



## consumer

terarc said:


> Has OP done a double-blind test on this yet? (Preferably with several participants)
> 
> If not, I don't see why this discussion is even continuing


Because a lot of people are finding a lot of the current generation of pills to be mongy and lack empathy / loved up feelings. That corresponds with a change in precursor and possible changes in manufacturing techniques. What is wrong with a discussion?  It seems a valid topic to me and has been the source of ongoing debate in EADD. A lot of people are saying the pills are all mongy...its not just Le Junk saying this. If this discussion offends you or does not interest you then dont read it. Simple really.


----------



## terarc

All I'm saying is we could quite easily get an answer if not at least a better idea of why this is happening if someone did do that, I don't see why someone hasn't given it a shot


----------



## oldskoolroller

I know what LeJunk is saying because I remember having that quality at one time . No one is saying todays x  in its on right (  most not all ) isn't a good drug , but the mdma he describes doesn't need a setting . When it hits you become the setting. 

 If you smoke weed think of it like this . You have been smoking some good shit for years then one day you get ahold of some cannabis cup winner strain , or you take your first dab . You hit that and sit back for a second . Next thing you know your higher than you ever thought you could get . Stoned to your bone , stuck in the couch , and to high to drive to the store high . You realize that there is a far better high to be had and the dank you have smoking is good but not grow dear antlers good ( grandma's boy reference ) .

 I hope to find that quality again one day . If I do , I will buy every last dose I can get no matter the price tag .


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

The evidence of change in synthesis routes and manufacture is very clear for anyone who wants to look. Check out the European drug report. Seizures of safferole compared to piperanol, PMK glycidate etc. Then consider the price for a gram compared to 10 years ago. 

MDMA is being made using different methods with more readily available precursors. So their is no argument that there is difference.


----------



## Brenner

The + & - MDMA Isomer theory seems to stand up well. If you do a bit of research into Ketamine its widely accepted and proven that the two different Isomers have a different effect.


----------



## Mazzab

Anyone point me in the direction where I can see non subjective evidence of how the MDP2P from safrole is structurally different then the MDP2P from PMK-glycidate?


----------



## Le Junk

terarc said:


> Has OP done a double-blind test on this yet? (Preferably with several participants)
> 
> If not, I don't see why this discussion is even continuing



I addressed this question earlier terarc.  I've tried the double blind test 3 different times now with multiple other friends.  And the results were exactly as I predicted.  Not a single person guessed wrong on what they took.  My man, the comparison is undeniable.  I'm just pissed that I received the new MDMA twice during the testing.  There's a reason the mg.s are so high on this new MDMA and it's not for the reason of the manufacturers doing you a favor.  It's to try and make up for something gone wrong.  

My friends and I were talking and there's a simple test that anyone can take to tell whether the MDMA they're getting is correctly produced or whether it's the new crap being made nowadays.

Correctly produced MDMA has absolutely no harsh comedown.  Whether you take 100 mg.s or 500 mg.s, the comedown is as soft as a feather.  You feel warm and lovey dovey the entire time, right up to the point you fall asleep like a little baby.  You will sleep for roughly 4-6 hours and will wake up feeling the most anti-depressed you've ever felt in your life.  The following day will be filled with conversation and wanting to get out and hang with friends or just drive around, listen to music and enjoy the beautiful day.  You feel fantastic the entire day.

With this new type of MDMA being produced nowadays, you will feel like crap on the comedown.  You may feel confused or geeked out, almost like a crack or meth comedown.  Sleep will be difficult if at all.  The next day you will still feel fucked up from the night before and not in a good way.  You won't want to go anywhere or talk to anyone.  Again, you'll still feel like a crackhead on the comedown the entire next day.  You'll spend most of the day in full recovery.  Good times.

That's it.  And that should sum it up for those that have never tried properly produced MDMA.  Does that help?

Le Junk


----------



## Bearlove

Le Junk said:


> I addressed this question earlier terarc.  I've tried the double blind test 3 different times now with multiple other friends.  And the results were exactly as I predicted.  Not a single person guessed wrong on what they took.  My man, the comparison is undeniable.  I'm just pissed that I received the new MDMA twice during the testing.  There's a reason the mg.s are so high on this new MDMA and it's not for the reason of the manufacturers doing you a favor.  It's to try and make up for something gone wrong.
> 
> My friends and I were talking and there's a simple test that anyone can take to tell whether the MDMA they're getting is correctly produced or whether it's the new crap being made nowadays.
> 
> Correctly produced MDMA has absolutely no harsh comedown.  Whether you take 100 mg.s or 500 mg.s, the comedown is as soft as a feather.  You feel warm and lovey dovey the entire time, right up to the point you fall asleep like a little baby.  You will sleep for roughly 4-6 hours and will wake up feeling the most anti-depressed you've ever felt in your life.  The following day will be filled with conversation and wanting to get out and hang with friends or just drive around, listen to music and enjoy the beautiful day.  You feel fantastic the entire day.
> 
> With this new type of MDMA being produced nowadays, you will feel like crap on the comedown.  You may feel confused or geeked out, almost like a crack or meth comedown.  Sleep will be difficult if at all.  The next day you will still feel fucked up from the night before and not in a good way.  You won't want to go anywhere or talk to anyone.  Again, you'll still feel like a crackhead on the comedown the entire next day.  You'll spend most of the day in full recovery.  Good times.
> 
> That's it.  And that should sum it up for those that have never tried properly produced MDMA.  Does that help?
> 
> Le Junk



Great post and much respect - I have always asked a few things for the reports on PR - Empathy, duration, come down and next day feeling.   Yes you can be taking the latest 'lab tested' 200+mg MDMA but if its shit MDMA then your wasting your time.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

Mazzab said:


> Anyone point me in the direction where I can see non subjective evidence of how the MDP2P from safrole is structurally different then the MDP2P from PMK-glycidate?



Perhaps stop thinking like an industrial chemist and start thinking like what it really is. Fastest route to make money, shortest and most efficient conversion. Yeh we all know that the route is to MDP2P but if the process is not refined and clean it's gonna have impurity and as keeps getting suggested their could well be some imbalance in the racemic. Shulgin did it for science. He did it properly and his process followed for many years. Now we already know changes of precursor so makes perfect sense they ain't being as careful as Shulgin.


----------



## Le Junk

Bearlove said:


> Great post and much respect - I have always asked a few things for the reports on PR - Empathy, duration, come down and next day feeling.   Yes you can be taking the latest 'lab tested' 200+mg MDMA but if its shit MDMA then your wasting your time.



Exactly.  It's frustrating for some to assume it's just me.  It's like trying to say that it's just me with regards to todays cocaine vs. 80's cocaine.  But I think my MDMA comedown differences outlined above should bring some clarity to those with reservations about my comparisons.  Thanks Bearlove.

Le Junk


----------



## terarc

I'm definitely open to the idea that there could be an objective difference in effects of MDMA produced via one route or another, due to isomer ratio being affected. If isomer ratio is the same though there is just no way there could be a difference, unless caused by some impurity present in the sample and not MDMA itself. I just can't buy it until I've seen some actual evidence as to what is causing the difference. MDMA is MDMA, it's as simple as that, impurities or isomer ratio differences are the only thing that could cause any difference, and if it was impurities then really it's just a source problem. Highly, highly pure (I'm talking almost 99% ) MDMA is available.


----------



## Bearlove

Le Junk said:


> Exactly.  It's frustrating for some to assume it's just me.  It's like trying to say that it's just me with regards to todays cocaine vs. 80's cocaine.  But I think my MDMA comedown differences outlined above should bring some clarity to those with reservations about my comparisons.  Thanks Bearlove.
> 
> Le Junk



You may have read the posts around the site on MDMA /Loss of magic etc - I really annoys me when people assume that because I have been taking MDMA for 20+ years I have simply lost the magic.   I haven't - I know the magic and I get it consistently on good MDMA (pretty much regardless of tolerance :D).

I get so frustrated with the comedown stories in this section - took 100mg of MDMA 5 months later still suffering 8(.   Pretty much everything going wrong is blamed on that one use of 'Molly' 8(. 

Safe my friend

Bear


----------



## oldskoolroller

Bearlove said:


> You may have read the posts around the site on MDMA /Loss of magic etc - I really annoys me when people assume that because I have been taking MDMA for 20+ years I have simply lost the magic.   I haven't - I know the magic and I get it consistently on good MDMA (pretty much regardless of tolerance :D).
> 
> I get so frustrated with the comedown stories in this section - took 100mg of MDMA 5 months later still suffering 8(.   Pretty much everything going wrong is blamed on that one use of 'Molly' 8(.
> 
> Safe my friend
> 
> Bear




 Exactly how feel as well.  I keep coming back hoping that the thread titles will tell me things have changed . But I keep seeing the ones you mention . One day it will swing back and I will be happy for that generation .


----------



## StoneHappyMonday

Bearlove said:


> Yes you can be taking the latest 'lab tested' 200+mg MDMA but if its shit MDMA then your wasting your time.



I still don't know whether to have a quiet chuckle to myself or be outraged. Ten years ago I was arguing this point, which has now become the accepted fact, only for the 'scientists' to slag me off and tell me MDMA is MDMA is MDMA.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

Mazzab said:


> Anyone point me in the direction where I can see non subjective evidence of how the MDP2P from safrole is structurally different then the MDP2P from PMK-glycidate?



The argument is that in the PMK-gly syn , during the reductive aminuation of MDp2p to mdma.....some glycidic impurity affects the ee of the reductive amination (one enantiomer is produced in preference).

So there is no difference between mdp2p produced in either route...its when the mdma is produced in the next step that there is a non 50 50 isomeric ratio established


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> Whether you take 100 mg.s or 500 mg.s, the comedown is as soft as a feather.



Scientifically unfounded.

500mg of MDMA * WILL cause a comedown nothing like a feather *

Even a person with tolerance will be hit by the amphetamine effects.

500 mg will convert to significant amounts of HMA HMMA and MDA -- all extremely stimulating.

The reason the mg are so high and it seems that there is no comedown is because it is not MDMA -- it is most likely a substituted cathinone, that has dosages in the 250-400mg range to achieve an effect close to what you get from 125mg MDMA.

These substances have almost no comedown, and no day after.

Please stop spreading dis-information.  GCMS tested MDMA will cause a comedown at 150 mg -- at 500 mg you are pretty much going to be cracked out for a day, unless you medicate with benzos, ambien, weed or a combo


----------



## oldskoolroller

shugenja said:


> Scientifically unfounded.
> 
> 500mg of MDMA * WILL cause a comedown nothpreferred like a feather *
> 
> Even a person with tolerance will be hit by the amphetamine effects.
> 
> 500 mg will convert to significant amounts of HMA HMMA and MDA -- all extremely stimulating.
> 
> The reason the mg are so high and it seems that there is no comedown is because it is not MDMA -- it is most likely a substituted cathinone, that has dosages in the 250-400mg range to achieve an effect close to what you get from 125mg MDMA.
> 
> These substances have almost no comedown, and no day after.
> 
> Please stop spreading dis-information.  GCMS tested MDMA will cause a comedown at 150 mg -- at 500 mg you are pretty much going to be cracked out for a day, unless you medicate with benzos, ambien, weed or a combo



 He said soft as a feather . While I can not confirm that I have taken anywhere near 500 mg of the " preferred mdma " ,  I know that I have taken atleast half that much through the night . If you find my first post in this thread you will see that  I actually love the next day off of true quality mdma . I haven't felt that way since the wave of dutch super pills have surfaced . I feel very cracked out for days on that stuff .


----------



## Dresden

The ratio of isomers is 50:50 either route.  The new MDMA feels like fairly weak meth with just a hint of rolling.  And the new pills are crunchy and not as bitter as they should be. Using safrole as the precursor is by far preferable to the glycidate synthesis.


----------



## Biscuit

Have a read of this thread for further discussion about possible ways in which the new precursor could effect the isometric ratio of the two MDMA enantiomers produced: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/793993-MDMA-Chemistry-Pharmacology-Thread 

There is no question that perfectly good and very high purity MD-P2P could be manufactured from the glycidate, but unless the manufacturers actually take the time to purify the MD-P2P properly there is every chance that by beginning with the glycidate (a substance which does exist in different enantiomeric forms), that the isometric ratio of MDMA ultimately produced could be skewed away from the usual racemic mixture produced from near pure MD-P2P.

I have recently seen government papers in which the glycidate is mentioned and it is clear that there are in fact multiple different PMK-glycidate precursors available (not just one type), all of which might produce slightly different outcomes, and depending on the chemical company supplying it, may come as a mix of different enantiomers or in other cases just one of them. These are some very significant variables we are talking about here which never before existed with MDMA made from MD-P2P, which in turn was created via safrole/isosafrole/piperonal. 

Unfortunately, I think the PMK-glycidate route has just made it all too easy for lazy large scale manufacturers to pump out this "MDMA", in circumstances where their bottom line is the only concern.


----------



## jredcity

i so agree with this explanation. back when was 15 ('89) a few friends got these pills from a very strange, gay, cabdriver, who wanted my friend VERY badly and was his cabbie every night (my homie worked at a subway sandwich store so he got off at 230-300 every night). anyway he &his whole family was from nyc and his brother used to send FULL Geritol bottles of the most clean, strong, innocent looking (they looked like little viverin; no imprint, nothing. so one night he gives him like 20 or so (prolly would got 100 or more for a sniff of his undies). so that night/morning we dosed at 4:30-5 and we was siting on my other friends couch waiting ferit to com on, 45 min:nada, 60 min:nada. about at the 62 min. mark; IT COMES. on the television was one of these $ for starving Ethiopians was on and my friend 















whoops, i hit the return button instead of shift. so real quick, the Ethiopian's faces got like long like a banana and my friend, J looked at the ground and pucked up three completely whole, undigested meatballs one after the other&from then on it was BLISS. so many details. but not enough time to go into. anyway I've seen nothing even close since then. yup
,


----------



## shugenja

consumer said:


> It is a common complaint in EADD. The theory is the precursor being used by the dutch labs creates a different racemic mix of mdma which while being the same chemical is producing mongy non euphoric mdma.



If you read PHIKAL, you will note that with the r-isomer that even at 200 mg there was not even a +1.

It is much more likely that the content of the pills, while testing to be MDMA by GCMS is very low dose (60-80 mg or less); and or is actually a substituted cathinone

-- after all unless the e-data results were from a sample you sent in, you can't be sure

Rest assured 6-9 hours of plur waves from 125 mg plus a bump is still available (not pills though)

Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of MDMA in North America comes from British Columbia, Canada.


----------



## shugenja

jredcity said:


> whoops, i hit the return button instead of shift. so real quick, the Ethiopian's faces got like long like a banana and my friend, J looked at the ground and pucked up three completely whole, undigested meatballs one after the other&from then on it was BLISS. so many details. but not enough time to go into. anyway I've seen nothing even close since then. yup
> ,




Sounds like a mix of MDA & MDMA


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> Correctly produced MDMA has absolutely no harsh comedown.  Whether you take 100 mg.s or 500 mg.s, the comedown is as soft as a feather.  You feel warm and lovey dovey the entire time, right up to the point you fall asleep like a little baby.  You will sleep for roughly 4-6 hours and will wake up feeling the most anti-depressed you've ever felt in your life.  The following day will be filled with conversation and wanting to get out and hang with friends or just drive around, listen to music and enjoy the beautiful day.  You feel fantastic the entire day.



Umm. No -- Mid 1990s -- this never happened, sorry. Perhaps your personal experience -- but being cracked (whacked) out on 'scooby snacks' (Fun Lovin Criminals 1996 shout out) was a known and accepted side effect 




Le Junk said:


> With this new type of MDMA being produced nowadays, you will feel like crap on the comedown.  You may feel confused or geeked out, almost like a crack or meth comedown.  Sleep will be difficult if at all.  The next day you will still feel fucked up from the night before and not in a good way.  You won't want to go anywhere or talk to anyone.  Again, you'll still feel like a crackhead on the comedown the entire next day.  You'll spend most of the day in full recovery.  Good times.
> 
> That's it.  And that should sum it up for those that have never tried properly produced MDMA.  Does that help?
> 
> Le Junk



Umm, that is exactly what happens after taking regular MDMA


----------



## shugenja

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> Perhaps stop thinking like an industrial chemist and start thinking like what it really is. Fastest route to make money, shortest and most efficient conversion. Yeh we all know that the route is to MDP2P but if the process is not refined and clean it's gonna have impurity and as keeps getting suggested their could well be some imbalance in the racemic. Shulgin did it for science. He did it properly and his process followed for many years. Now we already know changes of precursor so makes perfect sense they ain't being as careful as Shulgin.




Umm Shulgin described multiple routes in PHIKAL

1. MDA
2. PMK
3. PMK from isosafrole
4. PMK from piperonal and nitromethane 


which is his proper process??


----------



## shugenja

consumer said:


> This would explain the high doses in the pills as the r isomer is less potent and known to produce mongy effects.



current e-data does not have any MDMA test results that are not simply based on Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin -- which won't even differentiate between MDE/MDA, and MDMA (you need Simon's for that).

The only results that list dose are sent in by party-safe and reference HPLC, not GCMS, so it is time and adsorbent dependent.

Lastly,

Per Shulgin, The r isomer didn't even result in a +1 at 200 mg.  Much less result in a comedown or cracked out next day.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> current e-data does not have any MDMA test results that are not simply based on Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin -- which won't even differentiate between MDE/MDA, and MDMA (you need Simon's for that).
> 
> The only results that list dose are sent in by party-safe and reference HPLC, not GCMS, so it is time and adsorbent dependent.
> 
> Lastly,
> 
> Per Shulgin, The r isomer didn't even result in a +1 at 200 mg.  Much less result in a comedown or cracked out next day.



I didn't go back and look it up....but I'm pretty sure that shulgin concluded that there was a very REAL difference between the 50 50 raceemate and pure S.   He said that although the S was the active isomer....that the racimate gave a 'full" experience that was lacking in pure S.    

So the r has some sort of inherent effect whether it be agonism itself or outcompetion of s mdma or a metabolite.   Then start tweaking the ratio of r to s outside of 50 50 and things can get very complicated.
pharmacology is very complicated it could be doing lots of shit we would never hypothesize even though pure r gives little effects on its own


----------



## consumer

shugenja said:


> current e-data does not have any MDMA test results that are not simply based on Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin -- which won't even differentiate between MDE/MDA, and MDMA (you need Simon's for that).
> 
> The only results that list dose are sent in by party-safe and reference HPLC, not GCMS, so it is time and adsorbent dependent.
> 
> Lastly,
> 
> Per Shulgin, The r isomer didn't even result in a +1 at 200 mg.  Much less result in a comedown or cracked out next day.


Noone is saying its producing pure r isomer but a different racemic mix that is giving these mongy effects. Read biscuits post.


----------



## shugenja

consumer said:


> Noone is saying its producing pure r isomer but a different racemic mix that is giving these mongy effects. Read biscuits post.



There is plenty out there that produces the effects expected, at a dose of 125-150 mg.

There is also stuff being touted as MDMA that is substituted cathinone. 

If you come up in 10-20 minutes, have a relatively weak ride with no 'love' and its over in 2 hours -- substituted cathinone.


----------



## shugenja

consumer said:


> Noone is saying its producing pure r isomer but a different racemic mix that is giving these mongy effects. Read biscuits post.



I read it.

Any synth using MDP2P *regardless of how the MDP2P was prepared*, will produce a 50/50 racemic mix.

The only way to get one isomer is to use a chiral catalyst, or *use a chiral acid to precipitate the isomer you want, and throw the other half of your product away.
*
its not cheaper or easier to make stereo isomer pure MDMA.

Finally, the supposed "boogeyman" PMK-gly is identified as the pathway from piperonal to MDP2P in 1990 (with no mention of chirality)  https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/mda.dalcason.html


----------



## Biscuit

^ Have you read the other thread that I linked on the page before though? There is a greater amount of scientific discussion about the various possibilities on that thread. I won't attempt to repeat all of that on this thread too. In that thread I suggested a couple of explanations for why a non-racemic mixture of MDMA might be produced from the glycidate even though this should not occur because perfectly good MD-P2P is capable of being produced from the glycidate - as you quite correctly identify. The other thing I said in the thread is the possibility that the glycidate is a red herring and the manufacturers have switched to a new catalyst which just happens to be stereoselective.  

I am aware of the Rhodium article you mentioned - thank you for raising it. There is no issue arsing with chirality in that example because it is assumed that the chemist is going to properly purify the MD-P2P produced. If this is not done, which is where I believe the problem must lie, then where does that leave us? 

I found another page on Rhodium's site which may well be instructive - https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/mda.hey.html: 

- In the first part of the experimental section, "3,4-Methylenedioxybenzyl Methyl Ketone" (aka MD-P2P), it is clear that the method to isolate and purify the ketone is fairly involved, requiring multiple steps and even refluxing and vacuum distilling with copper powder! I wonder how many large scale manufacturers even have copper powder in their labs. A review of the website selling the glycidate and the manner in which they spruik how easy it is to turn this "legal" substance into a "ketone", implies to me that not all of these steps are being suggested and therefore are unlikely going to be followed. I just don't see the large scale manufacturers going to such trouble; if this is indeed correct, then given all that is produced in the glycidate --> ketone transformation, can anyone confidently rule out the possibility that any subsequent reductive amination to MDMA might just favour the production of one isomer over the other. 

I am the first to admit that everything that I and others have stated about this matter are simply theories, although they are theories which are based on a large body of evidence - pharmacological, chemical, specific known facts such as the mega dutch labs switching to this precursor, and the continual supply of anecdotal information which seems remarkably consistent. At the end of the day, the sudden massive increase in the dosage of MDMA contained in so many of these pills speaks loudest of all and rest assured the manufacturers aren't going to be doing it just because they want to give the customer a better deal at the expense of their own bottom line. 

As a person with knowledge of matters relating to chemistry and law enforcement, it frustrates me to no end that there hasn't been anyone to date who knows a government forensic chemist or the chemists who perform the work for ecstasydata.org, who could be requested to determine the enantiomeric ratio of a few test samples, tests which would prove once and for all whether any of this is correct or not. 

This type of testing is routinely done and not difficult for those labs set up to do it. Determining the D:L or S:R ratio of seized quantities of amphetamine, methylamphetamine and MDMA is often a necessary component of police investigations into drug manufacture and/or distribution, where being able to chemically match different batches of seized drugs with others or with the lab that produced them, provides vital evidence in any prosecution of this nature. No it isn't done for every lab test for every drug that is seized. But believe me it is done every time the police need the chemists to conduct this chemical comparison exercise for any cases where such evidence is deemed important. 

To give you an idea about how superficial our knowledge is in this area, mine included and I have a degree in it, take a look at this incredible journal article which considered a multitude of different ways in which chiral and non-chiral amphetamine could be produced, with the vast majority being routes that most people, even with an interest in drug chemistry, would never have heard of. What is clear is that there are many methods for making a non-racemic mix of amphetamine from precursors which, on first blush at least, would be assumed to only be capable of manufacturing racemic amphetamine: http://www.nwafs.org/newsletters/SyntheticAmphetamine.pdf.

I trust providing a link to this journal article, which in a published scientific journal, does not offend the guidelines. Frankly, the chemistry discussed in here is so complicated that even someone with a degree such as myself, couldn't possibly take it and suddenly start cranking out amphetamine etc. However, the point is well made, that even if there was only a quarter of this number of potential routes to make MDMA, the possibility of making chiral MDMA from new precursors which are being reacted in all sorts of possible ways that are anyone's guess, seems not only possible but probable.


----------



## shugenja

Biscuit said:


> I trust providing a link to this journal article, which in a published scientific journal, does not offend the guidelines. Frankly, the chemistry discussed in here is so complicated that even someone with a degree such as myself, couldn't possibly take it and suddenly start cranking out amphetamine etc. However, the point is well made, that even if there was only a quarter of this number of potential routes to make MDMA, the possibility of making chiral MDMA from new precursors which are being reacted in all sorts of possible ways that are anyone's guess, seems not only a possibility but probable.




Except it's not a new precursor. PMK gly - MDP2P has been known for decades

PMK-gly to MDP2P -- has fewer steps than the classic sassafras oil => safrole => isosafrole => MDP2P

Nothing after the MDP2P is controlled so why would they use some weird process or catalyst with unknown yield?

What is much more likely is:

1. It's not MDMA (even with marquis, mecke, and mandelin it could easily be MDEA, or another MDXX that isn't a cathinone)

2. It's a much lower dose

3. It's both


----------



## Biscuit

^ I agree it has been known for decades but it wasn't used when access to PMK itself was common. 

How is (1) or (2) possible when all of the lab tests say otherwise. ecstasydata.org lists many of them; all MDMA and many with very high doses, including those which people have complained about. If it weren't for the lab results which are known, then I doubt this discussion would even have arisen as your suggestions would be the most sensible place to start. 

If it wasn't clear already, I don't profess to know the answer. I am just interested in discussing the possibilities and trying to find a clear answer to this issue. None of us really know for certain otherwise the discussion wouldn't need to occur. I would be more than happy for someone to prove me, and many others one here, wrong. Of course if that occurred, then I suspect those that swear black and blue that there has been a change, would then need to spend another couple of years discussing a new possible explanation.


----------



## shugenja

Biscuit said:


> ^ I agree it has been known for decades but it wasn't used when access to PMK itself was common.
> 
> How is (1) or (2) possible when all of the lab tests say otherwise. ecstasydata.org lists many of them; all MDMA and many with very high doses, including those which people have complained about. If it weren't for the lab results which are known, then I doubt this discussion would even have arisen as your suggestions would be the most sensible place to start.




Because that isn't the case.  The lab results are not actually known

Go look on e-data, the ones with mg listed don't have the actual tests - they simply reference saferparty and some alleged HPLC testing (all those pills are in Vienna/Bern/Zurich)

In fact, I went back JAN 2015 and the ONLY pills with any actual mg of MDMA mentioned are from Zurich/Bern/Vienna or 'Austria'

ALL the other tests are reagent, not GCMS -- GCMS is the only way to be sure it is MDMA and only MDMA.  Any other chemicals present will be identifed by extra peaks.

(HPLC can show MDMA, but with HPLC the MDMA is usually extracted with a solvent, so any adultrants are not necessarily identified)

Furthermore -- i can without reservation assure you that MDMA is just as good as it used to be


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.



Unless you are snorting it -- that's not MDMA.

However, many substituted cathinones and piperazines do have an onset time of 10-15 minutes

Sorry -- even from completely dissolved powder in liquid 30-35 minutes is the shortest onset for MDMA.


----------



## Brenner

shugenja said:


> If you come up in 10-20 minutes, have a relatively weak ride with no 'love' and its over in 2 hours -- substituted cathinone.



How would one test for this? Assuming you have that experience but the pills test fine with Marquis, mandolin, Meckie, Simons & Robatest?


----------



## terarc

Yeah that's my other problem even with your double-blind experiment you did. 

Were both of the samples GCMS tested and proved to be pure MDMA? How do we know the purity of each sample was the same, and if they weren't, that the dosages were adjusted correctly to deliver the same amount of MDMA to each participant? Was every person given the exact same number of milligrams of MDMA per kg of their body weight or was it a flat dose? Was everyone's tolerance at the same level? Really it should be done with participants who have never tried MDMA. And how do we know that the MDMA samples were actually any different, we should surely start the experiment with two samples that we know to have different chirality or some other objective difference, rather than basing the decision of which samples to use on a previous subjective experience. Even with these steps in place it would be hard to determine how much of what is reported back is just from subjective experience vs an objective cause, you'd need a huge sample size.

Not trying to be mean or anything but noting in this thread proves anything. And I know for a fact that fantastic MDMA is available and in production.


----------



## Coiledpenny46

I wish I knew more ever had any paul franks ive seen every color just wish I knew more......


----------



## oldskoolroller

shugenja said:


> Because that isn't the case.  The lab results are not actually known
> 
> Go look on e-data, the ones with mg listed don't have the actual tests - they simply reference saferparty and some alleged HPLC testing (all those pills are in Vienna/Bern/Zurich)
> 
> In fact, I went back JAN 2015 and the ONLY pills with any actual mg of MDMA mentioned are from Zurich/Bern/Vienna or 'Austria'
> 
> ALL the other tests are reagent, not GCMS -- GCMS is the only way to be sure it is MDMA and only MDMA.  Any other chemicals present will be identifed by extra peaks.
> 
> (HPLC can show MDMA, but with HPLC the MDMA is usually extracted with a solvent, so any adultrants are not necessarily identified)
> 
> Furthermore -- i can without reservation assure you that MDMA is just as good as it used to be




 So to clarify things for me , ecstasy data never uses GCMS ? Their testing isn't any better than myself using reagents ? 

 Also , in this discussion are you saying that a product could be made that tests as mdma , but actually not be mdma ?

 Sorry for the layman questions , but in this discussion I am a layman.  My comments  come from 20 years of using mdma .


----------



## shugenja

oldskoolroller said:


> So to clarify things for me , ecstasy data never uses GCMS ? Their testing isn't any better than myself using reagents ?
> 
> Also , in this discussion are you saying that a product could be made that tests as mdma , but actually not be mdma ?
> 
> Sorry for the layman questions , but in this discussion I am a layman.  My comments  come from 20 years of using mdma .



Can't say never, but all I saw was reagent.

Click on a result -- you will see reagent tests. 

Yes, if you use Marquis, Mecke, and Mandelin -- MDA, MDE, MDMA (and APB-5/6) will all test the same you really need simon's and/or folin

Also, a little bit of MDMA with a lot of something else (that does not react) will test like MDMA -- for example mephedrone (barely) and also the piperazines (BZP, mCPP, TFMPP) don't react with with those 3 tests , so a pill with a little MDMA and lots of mephedrone/piperazines will test MDMA  -- same with alpha PVP

5-APB and 6-APB both test black on all three, so people will take that as a positive MDMA result

https://m.reddit.com/r/ReagentTesting/comments/3xee8g/how_to_use_a_reagent_testing_kit_read_this_if/


----------



## shugenja

Brenner said:


> How would one test for this? Assuming you have that experience but the pills test fine with Marquis, mandolin, Meckie, Simons & Robatest?



If it passed all 5, it could also be a piperazine with a tiny bit of MDMA/MDEA.

Possibly an X-APB as well.

A 10-20 minute come up from oral administration should tell you right away it's not MDMA


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> I read it.
> 
> Any synth using MDP2P *regardless of how the MDP2P was prepared*, will produce a 50/50 racemic mix.
> 
> The only way to get one isomer is to use a chiral catalyst, or *use a chiral acid to precipitate the isomer you want, and throw the other half of your product away.
> *
> its not cheaper or easier to make stereo isomer pure MDMA.
> 
> Finally, the supposed "boogeyman" PMK-gly is identified as the pathway from piperonal to MDP2P in 1990 (with no mention of chirality)  https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/mda.dalcason.html




It may be cheaper to use a catalytic reductive amination because it gets higher yields under the conditions of this process synthesis.  Also it may be a very cheap reduction catalyst thats forming an in situ chiral catalyst via coordination of a glycidic impurity to the metal mechanistic organic chemistry can be much more complicated than making assumptions that limit what can be happening in the reaction mixture, I don't think you're giving the complexity of what can be happening with every thing in the flask enough credit....maybe this in situ chiral catalyst only gives a slight enantiomeric excess....nobody is saying that it gives pure R stereoismer...just a ratio that isn't 5050

Another possibility:
Somewhere along the reaction you now have significant amounts of r and s mdma forming.....plus a chiral glycidic impurity...plus more unreacted mdp2p....which is 2 chiral materias that could be doing some 3rd order process with the mdp2p favoring a chiral glycine/R(orS)MDMA/mdp2p intermediate....which produces more R or S mdma preferentially because it forms a more active catalytic species or lower energy transition state.  the reaction order can get even higher also....this is just given as an example to show how complex mechanisms can be and there are plenty of studies showing how complicated catalysis really is and not a simple 2nd order process like people assume 

Another possibility;
the chiral glycidic impurity could corrdinate to the Mdp2p oxygen...activating it for reduction and making it a chiral substrate favoring the formation of r or s mdma.



The chances that an in situ chiral catalyst is forming from a non chiral catalyst by the glycidic impurity coordinating to the catalyst or the ketone before/during the reduction of MDp2p is very possible.  There are many examples of forming in situ chiral catalysts by the pre mixing of a chiral ligand and an non chiral catalyst in the literature....tons of examples in all different kinds of catalystic chemistry including reductions

Since this is process chemistry....there is very little possiblity that any purification is being done until the final prododuct is made.  Most good large scale synths for pharmaceuticals used in  industry don't require purification of the intermediates because its way too costly and time consuming, either the chemistry is all clean or purification is not needed inbetween steps....hence there may be a glycidic impurity carried all the way to the reductive amination step


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> Finally, the supposed "boogeyman" PMK-gly is identified as the pathway from piperonal to MDP2P in 1990 (with no mention of chirality)  [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/mda.dalcason.html




And?   Unless the MDMA produces of today are using the EXACT same reaction conditions (solvents temperatures reagents and scale) as whoever used PMK glycidate in the past....the products produced could greatly differ....reaction conditions can totally change the game in chemistry....the fact that two different synths start with the same reagent means nothing


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> And?   Unless the MDMA produces of today are using the EXACT same reaction conditions (solvents temperatures reagents and scale) as whoever used PMK glycidate in the past....the products produced could greatly differ....reaction conditions can totally change the game in chemistry....the fact that two different synths start with the same reagent means nothing





1. You obviously don't understand that PMK-gly is converted to MDP2P -- before anything else gets "in the flask"

2. Reaction conditions won't change the chirality of MDMA (because the conditions are highly conserved or the reactions won't work), perhaps a chiral catalyst, but there is no evidence of such.


FYI - MDP2P is not a reagent -- it is the substrate. Duh


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> The chances that an in situ chiral catalyst is forming from a non chiral catalyst by the glycidic impurity coordinating to the catalyst or the ketone before/during the reduction of MDp2p is very possible.  There are many examples of forming in situ chiral catalysts by the pre mixing of a chiral ligand and an non chiral catalyst in the literature....tons of examples in all different kinds of catalystic chemistry including reductions



Not for the well characterized and well understood PMK-gly to MDP2P -- it has been known (and used) for decades, Shulgin even identified the piperonal pathway to MDP2P.

Furthermore, if anybody wanted to prove it out, simply take 10-20 of these suspect pills, and extract the alleged MDMA with acetone.

After washing and drying, first test by melting point -- then send for GCMS - to prove it is MDMA and nothing else.

Then convert to the freebase, then

put into solution with a chiral acid (like r tartaric acid) -- this will precipitate out one stereo-isomer.

If all the MDMA or none of the MDMA freebase precipitates out, there was only 1 stereo-isomer.

If not -- it was racemic

weighing the substances will show the racemic ratio 

Simple.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> Not for the well characterized and well understood PMK-gly to MDP2P -- it has been known (and used) for decades, Shulgin even identified the piperonal pathway to MDP2P.
> 
> Furthermore, if anybody wanted to prove it out, simply take 10-20 of these suspect pills, and extract the alleged MDMA with acetone.
> 
> After washing and drying, first test by melting point -- then send for GCMS - to prove it is MDMA and nothing else.
> 
> Then convert to the freebase, then
> 
> put into solution with a chiral acid (like r tartaric acid) -- this will precipitate out one stereo-isomer.
> 
> If all the MDMA or none of the MDMA freebase precipitates out, there was only 1 stereo-isomer.
> 
> If not -- it was racemic
> 
> weighing the substances will show the racemic ratio
> 
> Simple.



nobody determines enantiomeric excess like this because its not reliable.....either chiral lcms is used or a mosher analysis.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> nobody determines enantiomeric excess like this because its not reliable.....either chiral lcms is used or a mosher analysis.



1. it's HPLC not lcms -- and that brings a host of process issues like determining purity, solvent, adsorbent 

you cant perform chiral HPLC without a purified substance to make the solute from, and an adsorbent that differentiates between isomers (do you know of one for MDMA ??)

2. Mosher analysis ( mosher's method)

requires a chiral derivatizing agent (a chiral acid) <<<Mosher's acid>>> or another chiral acid like r-tartaric -- gee where did we hear about r-tartaric acid? oh yeah it was in my example which is 


a version of mosher analysis -- duh!

Thanks for supporting my example.

BTW -- my process won't cost the couple thousand for chiral column chromatography you would have to pay


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> 1. it's HPLC not lcms -- and that brings a host of process issues like determining purity, solvent, adsorbent
> 
> you cant perform chiral HPLC without a purified substance to make the solute from, and an adsorbent that differentiates between isomers (do you know of one for MDMA ??)
> 
> 2. Mosher analysis ( mosher's method)
> 
> requires a chiral derivatizing agent (a chiral acid) <<<Mosher's acid>>> or another chiral acid like r-tartaric -- gee where did we hear about r-tartaric acid? oh yeah it was in my example which is
> 
> 
> a version of mosher analysis -- duh!
> 
> Thanks for supporting my example.
> 
> BTW -- my process won't cost the couple thousand for chiral column chromatography you would have to pay



It didn't support your example at all....because the essence of a mosher analysis is differentiating the to enantiomers via NMR...it has nothing to do with weighing out amounts crystalized enantiomers....which is a highly unreliabe way to determine EE.....no chemist in the world determines ee by this approach....none...nobody does it.

Its chiral LCMS...not hplc.    HPLC is for preparative purposes....LCMS is for analysis hplc is for prep work.

example of LCMS used in chiral resolution of amphetamine and methamphetamine with a chiral column....there are hundreds of different chiral stationary phases that can be used to resolve amphetamine enantiomers....and its done in human urine in this publication which is not purified drug...urine with tons of other drugs metabolites and protiens present in the mix...much more impure than an X pill....purification is not neccessary to determine EE vial chiral chromatography as you stated...especially with LCMS because the chromatography and mass spectrometry has such high specificity for your target it doesn't matter if its impure

http://sciex.com/Documents/Applications/RUO-MKT-02-0403_Amphetamine_chiral_final.pdf


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> It didn't support your example at all....because the essence of a mosher analysis is differentiating the to enantiomers via NMR...it has nothing to do with weighing out amounts crystalized enantiomers....which is a highly unreliabe way to determine EE.....no chemist in the world determines ee by this approach....none...nobody does it.
> 
> Its chiral LCMS...not hplc.    HPLC is for preparative purposes....LCMS is for analysis hplc is for prep work.
> 
> example of LCMS used in chiral resolution of amphetamine and methamphetamine with a chiral column....there are hundreds of different chiral stationary phases that can be used to resolve amphetamine enantiomers....and its done in human urine in this publication which is not purified drug...urine with tons of other drugs metabolites and protiens present in the mix...much more impure than an X pill....purification is not neccessary to determine EE vial chiral chromatography as you stated...especially with LCMS because the chromatography and mass spectrometry has such high specificity for your target it doesn't matter if its impure
> 
> http://sciex.com/Documents/Applications/RUO-MKT-02-0403_Amphetamine_chiral_final.pdf



Mosher uses chrial derivatization, and was around long before nuclear magnetic resonance, hence "mosher's acid" 

 LCMS cannot determine chirality per your own citation:

" LC-MS/MS eliminates the need toderivitize and allows direct, 100 % detection. Mass spectrometryalone, however, cannot distinguish between stereoisomers,since it characterizes compounds solely in terms of mass."

Chiral Column HPLC is used to determine EE


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> Mosher uses chrial derivatization, and was around long before nuclear magnetic resonance, hence "mosher's acid"
> 
> LCMS cannot determine chirality per your own citation:
> 
> " LC-MS/MS eliminates the need toderivitize and allows direct, 100 % detection. Mass spectrometryalone, however, cannot distinguish between stereoisomers,since it characterizes compounds solely in terms of mass."
> 
> Chiral Column HPLC is used to determine EE




you have no idea what you are reading or talking about....i'm not going to explain basic chemistry to you


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> you have no idea what you are reading or talking about....i'm not going to explain basic chemistry to you



Sure I do.

FYI - I quoted the paper you posted -- lol

LCMS -- is mass spectrometry -- it cannot determine chirality -- period (your own citation even says so)

Chiral HPLC can based on the difference in times the anaylte(s) leave the column


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> Sure I do.
> 
> FYI - I quoted the paper you posted -- lol
> 
> LCMS -- is mass spectrometry -- it cannot determine chirality -- period (your own citation even says so)
> 
> Chiral HPLC can based on the difference in times the anaylte(s) leave the column



LCMS stands for Liquid Chromatography coupled to MAss spectrometry.   It is the gold standard for determining ee in chemistry.   

LCMS is an analytical HPLC sized column coupled to a mass spectrometer ....it is not a mass spectrometer alone which is what you seem to be confusing.  In this case the LC would be a chiral LC


Any lab in the world you sent a sample to for determination of the enantiomeric ratio will use LCMS....not HPLC without an mass spectrometer. not hplc with any other kind of detector...any LCMS....let me say that again...they will use an L C M S

you just want to argue.   If you walked into any lab in the world and said that LCMS can't determine enantiomeric ratios they would laugh


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> LCMS stands for Liquid Chromatography coupled to MAss spectrometry.   It is the gold standard for determining ee in chemistry.
> 
> LCMS is an analytical HPLC sized column coupled to a mass spectrometer ....it is not a mass spectrometer alone which is what you seem to be confusing.  In this case the LC would be a chiral LC
> 
> 
> Any lab in the world you sent a sample to for determination of the enantiomeric ratio will use LCMS....not HPLC without an mass spectrometer. not hplc with any other kind of detector...any LCMS....let me say that again...they will use an L C M S
> 
> you just want to argue.   If you walked into any lab in the world and said that LCMS can't determine enantiomeric ratios they would laugh



Chiral HPLC is a separate and effective process that does not include Mass Spectrometry.

 sigma-aldrich HPLC only no MS  fexofenadine chiral -- http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/technic...al/applications/chiral-hplc-fexofenadine.html

I guess sigma-aldrich has an entire Chiral HPLC (sans MS) line of services for no reason


----------



## consumer

Seems like you are not open to the possibility of a different racemic mix of mdma being produced despite all the anecdotal complaints, the high dosage in the pills, and people like biscuit offering reasonable theories about why this is happening. You may think the mdma has not changed but many others think otherwise. 

Clearly something is going on for so many people to be discussing it.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> Chiral HPLC is a separate and effective process that does not include Mass Spectrometry.
> 
> sigma-aldrich HPLC only no MS  fexofenadine chiral -- http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/technic...al/applications/chiral-hplc-fexofenadine.html
> 
> I guess sigma-aldrich has an entire Chiral HPLC (sans MS) line of services for no reason



  Your argument was that an LCMS cannot perform a chiral resolution and you need an HPLC to do it.  by definition an LCMS  is an HPLC + an MS as the detector.  I don't understand what you were trying to argue....that and LCMS does not contain an HPLC and you need an HPLC instead/?

you can do a chiral resolution with an HPLC with another type of detector like UV vis....but maybe if you live in a third world country or 50 years ago you would do it like that....sort of like not using an NMR in a mosher analysis and trying to dtermine ee by crystalizing something out and weighing it.   We are in the year 2016....we are not concerned with how things would have been done 50 years ago.

Its obvious from this and your previous argument about mosher esters that you jsut read stuff and argue based on statements you read without understanding what people actually do in chemistry in reality.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> Your argument was that an LCMS cannot perform a chiral resolution and you need an HPLC to do it.  by definition an LCMS  is an HPLC + an MS as the detector.  I don't understand what you were trying to argue....that and LCMS does not contain an HPLC and you need an HPLC instead/?
> 
> you can do a chiral resolution with an HPLC with another type of detector like UV vis....but maybe if you live in a third world country or 50 years ago you would do it like that....sort of like not using an NMR in a mosher analysis and trying to dtermine ee by crystalizing something out and weighing it.   We are in the year 2016....we are not concerned with how things would have been done 50 years ago



1.  -- MS by itself cannot determine EE, MS is not needed to determine EE -- MS adds nothing other than identifying the substance via mass

2 -- weighing it out after a mosher derivitization by using a chiral acid to precipitate freebase doesn't require a lab, is very cheap, and would be sufficient to resolve the "mostly r-isomer" argument


----------



## shugenja

consumer said:


> Seems like you are not open to the possibility of a different racemic mix of mdma being produced despite all the anecdotal complaints, the high dosage in the pills, and people like biscuit offering reasonable theories about why this is happening. You may think the mdma has not changed but many others think otherwise.
> 
> Clearly something is going on for so many people to be discussing it.



The only data regarding dose in pills is limited to Zurich, Bern, Vienna and Austria -- as far back as 2015 -- there is no data identifying mg content of any other MDMA containing pills on e-data from Jan 2015 to the present

the theory proposed regarding PMK-gly is not reasonable -- MDP2P is MDP2P -- the catalyst for PMK-gly to PMK is not a chiral catalyst


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> The only data regarding dose in pills is limited to Zurich, Bern, Vienna and Austria -- as far back as 2015 -- there is no data identifying mg content of any other MDMA containing pills on e-data from Jan 2015 to the present
> 
> the theory proposed regarding PMK-gly is not reasonable -- MDP2P is MDP2P -- the catalyst for PMK-gly to PMK is not a chiral catalyst




You aren't grasping the theory correctly....We are talking about the reductive amination of MDp2p to MDMA....this is the step under question.   It is likeley that purification does not happen during any of the steps...as most process scale syntheses go There by leaving a glycidic impurity present during the last step of the synth


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> 1.  -- MS by itself cannot determine EE, MS is not needed to determine EE -- MS adds nothing other than identifying the substance via mass
> 
> 2 -- weighing it out after a mosher derivitization by using a chiral acid to precipitate freebase doesn't require a lab, is very cheap, and would be sufficient to resolve the "mostly r-isomer" argument



1) show me where I suggested using a mass spectrometer without a chromatography setup up?

2) weighing out a mosher derivitization?  lol bro if you only knew how stupid that sounds.  I"m done with you man, go back to studying undergraduate organic chemistry for your final


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> 2) weighing out a mosher derivitization?  lol bro if you only knew how stupid that sounds.  I"m done with you man, go back to studying undergraduate organic chemistry for your final



Are you saying it would not work? or it's low tech?

If the HPLC/MS process you propose is so great -- analyze a pill with it  -- oh what? you don't want to spend the $$ or get caught?


----------



## JBrandon

LucidSDreamr said:


> , go back to studying undergraduate organic chemistry for your final



I don't really care much about this little tiff you guys are having, but I just wanted to say this cracked me up


----------



## Biscuit

> It may be cheaper to use a catalytic reductive amination because it gets higher yields under the conditions of this process synthesis. Also it may be a very cheap reduction catalyst thats forming an in situ chiral catalyst via coordination of a glycidic impurity to the metal mechanistic organic chemistry can be much more complicated than making assumptions that limit what can be happening in the reaction mixture, I don't think you're giving the complexity of what can be happening with every thing in the flask enough credit....maybe this in situ chiral catalyst only gives a slight enantiomeric excess....nobody is saying that it gives pure R stereoismer...just a ratio that isn't 5050
> 
> Another possibility:
> Somewhere along the reaction you now have significant amounts of r and s mdma forming.....plus a chiral glycidic impurity...plus more unreacted mdp2p....which is 2 chiral materias that could be doing some 3rd order process with the mdp2p favoring a chiral glycine/R(orS)MDMA/mdp2p intermediate....which produces more R or S mdma preferentially because it forms a more active catalytic species or lower energy transition state. the reaction order can get even higher also....this is just given as an example to show how complex mechanisms can be and there are plenty of studies showing how complicated catalysis really is and not a simple 2nd order process like people assume
> 
> Another possibility;
> the chiral glycidic impurity could corrdinate to the Mdp2p oxygen...activating it for reduction and making it a chiral substrate favoring the formation of r or s mdma.


I agree with all of this and don't have anymore to say to add to the tiff.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> You aren't grasping the theory correctly....We are talking about the reductive amination of MDp2p to MDMA....this is the step under question.   It is likeley that purification does not happen during any of the steps...as most process scale syntheses go There by leaving a glycidic impurity present during the last step of the synth



They manage to get extremely pure MDMA into pills -- but don't practice good chemistry anywhere else along the way -- oookay.

Ok. Really? -- Lets talk actual compounds.  !!! Glycidate = glycidic acid NOT the amino acid glycine !!!

1. PMK-glycidate is a powdered carboxylate (glycidic acid reacts to form either epoxides or carboxylates)

2. PMK (MDP2P) - is a liquid ketone

3. Why would you believe there is any significant amount of a glycidic impurity in the liquid MDP2P? -- that begs credulity. they can't decant a liquid, and then use a filter? really? really??

4. Any glycidic impurity would be a carboxylate or an epoxide. 

5. Please identify the supposed possible epoxides or carboxylates that will interfere with the chirality of the ENTIRE MDP2P -- Nitromethane or MDP2P -- Methylamine reaction (instead of the molar fraction of the proposed impurity).  It is chemistry, there are a finite set of epoxides and/or carboxylates that could possibly form.

6. Since you propose they don't purify anything -- where are all the epoxide and carboxylate reaction products?


What's more likely -- and actually plausible:

Someone may have synthed a giant batch of r-MDA -- there is a known synthesis to create the r-isomer as it is the supposedly "desired" isomer for MDA

Then, someone performed the PIHKAL MDMA synthesis from the r-isomer MDA and ended up with a ton of r-MDMA.


----------



## shugenja

Biscuit said:


> I agree with all of this and don't have anymore to say to add to the tiff.



What is this chiral glycidic impurity that could be formed? (which epoxide or carboxylate?)

You agree that glycine could be an intermediate product of glycidic acid? Really?

What are the metal epoxides and or metal carboxylates you agree could be formed?


----------



## shugenja

What's more likely -- and actually plausible (but still unlikely):

Someone may have synthed a giant batch of r-MDA -- there is a known synthesis to create the r-isomer as it is the supposedly "desired" isomer for MDA

Then, someone performed the PIHKAL MDMA synthesis from the r-isomer MDA and ended up with a ton of r-MDMA.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> They manage to get extremely pure MDMA into pills -- but don't practice good chemistry anywhere else along the way -- oookay.




EXACTLY !!!! now you're getting it.....why the hell would they care about purifying an intermediate?  to waste more money/solvents/ and time?   This is clandestine kilogram scale chemistry not a PhD thesis they are doing.


I have no idea what glycidic impurities are produced in the first steps of the synth....but anything with an oxygen can coordinate to a metal center...especially carboxylates (presumtive reduction catalyst)


----------



## LucidSDreamr

Biscuit said:


> I agree with all of this and don't have anymore to say to add to the tiff.



Thank you....I don't know why I keep arguing with this guy.  I'm starting to think hes just trolling me.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> EXACTLY !!!! now you're getting it.....why the hell would they care about purifying an intermediate?  to waste more money/solvents/ and time?   This is clandestine kilogram scale chemistry not a PhD thesis they are doing.
> 
> 
> I have no idea what glycidic impurities are produced in the first steps of the synth....but anything with an oxygen can coordinate to a metal center...especially carboxylates (presumtive reduction catalyst)




1. It's a liquid layer -- decanting it and using almost any kind of filtrate will remove 99% of anything other than a liquid (only other liquid species will be possible napthalenes and other phenyl-acetones  as they are known contaminants of PMK)

2.  metal carboxylates are as a group non-reactive (unless you get into some really weird metals like Barium or Lead-Titanate that form mildly reactive small chain carboxylates)

3. the reactivity of epoxides would likely cause bad things to happen, so we can reasonably exclude them

4. There are only so many metal catalysts that won't explosively end the MDP2P - methyl donor (nitromethane or methylamine) reaction

5. There are only so many metal carboxylates that could be formed -- please identify which of these you propose can induce an enantiomeric excess


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> Thank you....I don't know why I keep arguing with this guy.  I'm starting to think hes just trolling me.



Propose a list of possible metal catalysts that wont explosively end the synthesis.

Propose a list of metal carboxylates or metal epoxides that could possibly be formed by said metal catalysts.

Identify any that would cause a significant shift towards one isomer at concentration of 1% or less


remember -- at 75-25 r - s a 200mg dose would be 100mg racemic MDMA  -- kind of destroys the theory


----------



## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> With this new type of MDMA being produced nowadays, you will feel like crap on the comedown. You may feel confused or geeked out, almost like a crack or meth comedown. Sleep will be difficult if at all. The next day you will still feel fucked up from the night before and not in a good way. You won't want to go anywhere or talk to anyone. Again, you'll still feel like a crackhead on the comedown the entire next day. You'll spend most of the day in full recovery. Good times.
> 
> That's it. And that should sum it up for those that have never tried properly produced MDMA. Does that help?
> 
> Le Junk
> 
> 
> 
> Umm, that is exactly what happens after taking regular MDMA



Dude, you are so misguided.  That last comment of yours that "that is exactly what happens after taking regular MDMA" confirms my statement.  After that comment alone, there's really nothing else you can say that would make me believe you've ever actually taken good MDMA in your life.  And what are you talking about never happened in the mid'90's?  Of course it did.  I've been doing the same exact MDMA white crystalline powder since the late 80's.  And prior to that, the legal ecstasy tablets produced in Texas.  I've sent samples of this stuff into edata at least 4 times now over the last 15-20 years.  MDMA:1 ever single time.  So much for your comment about it not being real MDMA to begin with.  My guess is that you've never done the real thing, yet seem to spread misinformation so clearly on the forum.  You try and talk a big game, but the reality is you have some basic first year chemistry knowledge mixed with absolutely 0 experience with good MDMA.  But thanks for playing son.


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> Dude, you are so misguided.  That last comment of yours that "that is exactly what happens after taking regular MDMA" confirms my statement.  After that comment alone, there's really nothing else you can say that would make me believe you've ever actually taken good MDMA in your life.  And what are you talking about never happened in the mid'90's?  Of course it did.  I've been doing the same exact MDMA white crystalline powder since the late 80's.  And prior to that, the legal ecstasy tablets produced in Texas.  I've sent samples of this stuff into edata at least 4 times now over the last 15-20 years.  MDMA:1 ever single time.  So much for your comment about it not being real MDMA to begin with.  My guess is that you've never done the real thing, yet seem to spread misinformation so clearly on the forum.  You try and talk a big game, but the reality is you have some basic first year chemistry knowledge mixed with absolutely 0 experience with good MDMA.  But thanks for playing son.




I'm in the same generation as you

early-late 90's,  -- wafers, baby aspirins 'nuff said (yes you can actually press molly with almost no binder)  oh yeah "molly" as a term for 'pure molecule' was actually first made popular around 1999-2000 

Nation in DC, Ultraworld (shout out to Lonnie)

if you honestly expect people to believe that MDMA hits in 10-15 min you're nuts.

Show me the e-data report -- I bet it's just reagent -- prove me wrong

None of the high mg pills are from the US on e-data, so I know you are not talking about them -- so WTF

Man-up and produce a report that specifies GCMS -- AND the mg content of the pill -- otherwise - respectfully STFU


----------



## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> I'm in the same generation as you
> 
> early 90's,  -- wafers, baby aspirins 'nuff said
> 
> if you honestly expect people to believe that MDMA hits in 10-15 min you're nuts.
> 
> Show me the e-data report -- I bet it's just reagent -- prove me wrong




If you've supposedly done good MDMA, what is your comment that the cracked out comedown is normal?  And also, what is your comment that it doesn't hit you in 15-20 minutes based on?  Of course it does.  My guess is that you're not of my generation and that you're just saying you are.  You throw a couple old school comments around about wafers, baby aspirins etc (common names you probably googled).  You're definition of what good MDMA is and is not like is incorrect on both ends.  You have no knowledge at all my friend.  I'll try and dig up my old edata reports just to amuse you.  In the meantime, try and get out of your moms basement for awhile.


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> If you've supposedly done good MDMA, what is your comment that the cracked out comedown is normal?  And also, what is your comment that it doesn't hit you in 15-20 minutes based on?  Of course it does.  My guess is that you're not of my generation and that you're just saying you are.  You throw a couple old school comments around about wafers, baby aspirins etc (common names you probably googled).  You're definition of what good MDMA is and is not like is incorrect on both ends.  You have no knowledge at all my friend.  I'll try and dig up my old edata reports just to amuse you.  In the meantime, try and get out of your moms basement for awhile.




Because for most people that is the sequelae.  Now cracked out is relative -- is it like cracked out from a 3-day meth binge? no  Is it uncomfortable for most people, yes (most don't get an afterglow - I usually do) Most guys can't fuck on MDMA without a pde5 inhibitor. 

ANd no - it doesn't hit in 10-15 minutes in any part of the MDMA eating world (that would be meth**one)-- people time the 35-45 minute delay so they can drop, drive to the club and make it inside

And the no come-down (sounds and feels a lot like meth**one too)

I guarantee I can tell you shit you won't find on google -- but believe what you want.

Big pink wafers a bit larger than a nickel but super thin -- straight from Holland -- oh good times

Oh and the shit from Israel back in the day (east coast israeli m*** -- good guys)

Fact is, MDMA is just fine maybe the shit you have is bunk -- but I can assure you, there is stuff going around that has you sitting on the toilet, fapping - shout out to my british bros (even though that shit wont get hard), and thinking how much you love everybody -- wave after wave from 125 mg measured on a digital scale

eyes wiggling, chin quivering, want to rub some cashmere, satin, or velvet -- give me a scalp massage while i'm getting my dick sucked, and helping the random girl out with her relationship problems (LOL) - MDMA

Pacifiers and ring pops are so the gurn don't fuck up the inside of your cheeks

Starburst and vicks inhalers WILL -- bring back/ bring up the roll


----------



## xPsychoticPenguinx

Didn't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to say that there IS good MDMA still around, it's just finding it that's difficult. Got something last night and I kinda rolled, but never -completely- ya know? Anyway.. I've NEVER crashed so hard in my fucking life. I did about a G.. but didn't wanna be loving on anyone or anything like that. Wanted to veg out to music, but that's about it. And since I -finally- stopped rolling, I've been fiending in a way that I can only relate to a crack hit. But its been hours now. Like.. 12 fucking hours of being unable to sleep or eat or do anything but try to remind my muscles to relax. This is terrible!


----------



## shugenja

xPsychoticPenguinx said:


> Didn't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to say that there IS good MDMA still around, it's just finding it that's difficult. Got something last night and I kinda rolled, but never -completely- ya know? Anyway.. I've NEVER crashed so hard in my fucking life. I did about a G.. but didn't wanna be loving on anyone or anything like that. Wanted to veg out to music, but that's about it. And since I -finally- stopped rolling, I've been fiending in a way that I can only relate to a crack hit. But its been hours now. Like.. 12 fucking hours of being unable to sleep or eat or do anything but try to remind my muscles to relax. This is terrible!



Yeah a gram and not really rolling - sounds alot like methylone (M1)

Methylone has a huge range of effects that vary widely from person to person - 125 mg knocks some people on their ass like MDMA -- for others 250 mg does jack shit -- going through a gram of methylone is common -- as is fiending -- methylone causes many to compulsively redose

redosing methylone is known to cause a huge crash  -- as opposed to the normal no-comedown from a single dose of methylone

The good news is that lots of people have done lots of methylone and not had any significant issues based on current info.


----------



## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> Because for most people that is the sequelae.  Now cracked out is relative -- is it like cracked out from a 3-day meth binge? no  Is it uncomfortable for most people, yes (most don't get an afterglow - I usually do) Most guys can't fuck on MDMA without a pde5 inhibitor.
> 
> ANd no - it doesn't hit in 10-15 minutes in any part of the MDMA eating world (that would be meth**one)-- people time the 35-45 minute delay so they can drop, drive to the club and make it inside
> 
> And the no come-down (sounds and feels a lot like meth**one too)
> 
> I guarantee I can tell you shit you won't find on google -- but believe what you want.
> 
> Big pink wafers a bit larger than a nickel but super thin -- straight from Holland -- oh good times
> 
> Oh and the shit from Israel back in the day (east coast israeli m*** -- good guys)
> 
> Fact is, MDMA is just fine maybe the shit you have is bunk -- but I can assure you, there is stuff going around that has you sitting on the toilet, fapping - shout out to my british bros (even though that shit wont get hard), and thinking how much you love everybody -- wave after wave from 125 mg measured on a digital scale
> 
> eyes wiggling, chin quivering, want to rub some cashmere, satin, or velvet -- give me a scalp massage while i'm getting my dick sucked, and helping the random girl out with her relationship problems (LOL) - MDMA
> 
> Pacifiers and ring pops are so the gurn don't fuck up the inside of your cheeks
> 
> Starburst and vicks inhalers WILL -- bring back/ bring up the roll



Sweet Jesus, my crystalline powder hits in 20 minutes without fail every time.  No, it's not meth.  And no, it's not a cathinone.  The legal ecstasy tablets I took in the 80's hit me in 20 minutes as well.  Both of them have the same exact buzz.  Love and empathy off the scale to the point you'll confess anything.  Total truth serum.  Touch and feel is incredible.  You can't stop rubbing and touching on the chick you're with and even yourself.  You could do that all night.  Love for everyone, even your worst enemy.  You talk about things like if the whole world were on this shit there would be no wars.  Sex is off the chain.  Your dick is way more sensitive and you can feel everything.  Tongue kissing is incredible.  You can't stop.  Getting hard is difficult, but a Viagra cures that every time.  The comedown is soft and sleep is immediate regardless of what you say and the next day is peaceful and loving.  Again, regardless of what you say.  I don't know what to tell you.     

This particular description of yours right here is spot on to my buzz.  

Shugenga quote:

sitting on the toilet, fapping - shout out to my british bros (even though that shit wont get hard), and thinking how much you love everybody -- wave after wave from 125 mg measured on a digital scale

 eyes wiggling, chin quivering, want to rub some cashmere, satin, or velvet -- give me a scalp massage while i'm getting my dick sucked, and helping the random girl out with her relationship problems (LOL) - MDMA

 Pacifiers and ring pops are so the gurn don't fuck up the inside of your cheeks

 Starburst and vicks inhalers WILL -- bring back/ bring up the roll.  End of quote.



I'm not sure why you contradict yourself with comments about cracked out etc.

Le Junk


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> I'm not sure why you contradict yourself with comments about cracked out etc.
> 
> Le Junk



Because most people have that result after a good hard roll with real MDMA.

Apparently you have a quite unique physiology. Even 20 minutes until the wall of E hits is extremely (and outside of 3 sigma) fast.  The overwhelming majority of people (even with molly dissolved in liquid - love the sunburst from the stomach) don't feel the come-up until 35 minutes at the earliest.

Even plugging powder in a capsule takes about 35 minutes --but hits way harder (almost like you are in a k-hole lol).

That aside.  Unless you actually have an empirical measure of the MDMA in the pill -- u don't know, and low effects == low dose.

I don't buy the different isomer BS -- because many people who have measured doses have the expected effect.

Until someone provides a GCMS report from a reputable lab with chain of custody and mg content of the pill, -- and subjective assessment from both MDMA naive and MDMA experienced users -- I say bunk pills are ethylone, methylone, piperazines MD-something else or ones that test as only MDMA = low dose MDMA

For what it's worth -- some reports from experienced users paint a mix of 5-APB and 6-APB as better than MDMA --


----------



## shugenja

*No mg content of pills outside of Spain, Zurich, Bern, Vienna 2000-2016*

I just searched the e-data site for pills that tested ONLY MDMA from 2000-2016

The ONLY pills with mg identified are from Spain, Zurich, Bern, or Vienna/Austria) -- with the exception of 4 reports from USA (blaine, washington -2008  )of ~50 mg content.


There are people on this forum asserting there is evidence based on mg content of isomeric MDMA -- There isn't.

Furthermore (without searching 1100 records, but sampling) the form of test was reagent, mainly marquis, mecke, and mandelin -- which can't differentiate between MDA/MDMA/MDA/X-APB  and can't exclude piperazines as they don't react with those tests


I welcome your response.


----------



## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> Because most people have that result after a good hard roll with real MDMA.



With my crystalline powder, when I take a third dose during the course of an evening, I will have an amphetamine type of high.  The love and empathy is gone and you're left with kind of an amped out, jittery, dirty feeling.  But that feeling at it's worst is nothing compared to the comedown of this new generation MDMA.  These Supremes that I have are edata lab tested MDMA only and at a supposed high dose.  Even in small amounts, the comedown is horrible.  The high is lacking any true love and empathy.  What little there is is very short lived.  There are eye wiggles, but it's not like the kind where your sitting there moaning saying omg.  Instead, you're just sitting there with eye wiggles.  Weird.  And the comedown is very hardcore crackish.  Actually, more like a mix of crack and meth.  Horrible.  And the next day you're still high.  Just like the experience of one of the posters just a few posts back.  What you would think is pipes or cath is actually not.  It's MDMA.


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> These Supremes that I have are edata lab tested MDMA only and at a supposed high dose.



paste the edata link 

There is  absolutely no mg content data for north american pills -- only Zurich, Bern, or Vienna

 I hope you don't think the pills from Zurich are the same ones you have in Indiana


----------



## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> paste the edata link
> 
> There is  absolutely no mg content data for north american pills -- only Zurich, Bern, or Vienna
> 
> I hope you don't think the pills from Zurich are the same ones you have in Indiana



Here's the link.  These are from my batch.  I won't say how they ended up coming from Atlanta.

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=4292&mobile=1

I know there's no mention of mgs with regards to US pills, but the fact I was literally still high 2 days later tells me the mgs are high.

Where do you think most pills in the US are originating from?  Not here.

Le Junk


----------



## opiumhashish

sorry im a newbie here but in my honest opinion the reason the mdma has worsened over the years is because people don't know what proper md is like therefor either the dealers or customers settle with brown methylone or even just not very pure crystal mdma which is unfortunate but as you know mdma should be a 100% transparant rock crystal, specially with the pills these days there always mda,mdpv, methylone, mephedrone or just speed with a bit of mdma, i would say nowerdays pills are out the question and never should be bought no matter what, because the consequences of someone being selfish and using all these active cuts can mess people up specially when there taking 2 or 3, even someone knowing how to dose those other drugs cant dose for someone whos taking more than a single pill, if you can find someone selling the clear rocks you will have the same experience as you used to but i believe half the stuff is rubbish and like all drugs you should be very fussy if you want to make sure you're getting what yor paying for! 

( first post sorry if im missing something key with what i say or how i worded it all)


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> Here's the link.  These are from my batch.  I won't say how they ended up coming from Atlanta.
> 
> https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=4292&mobile=1
> 
> I know there's no mention of mgs with regards to US pills, but the fact I was literally still high 2 days later tells me the mgs are high.
> 
> Where do you think most pills in the US are originating from?  Not here.
> 
> Le Junk



I stand corrected on the GCMS -- after realizing how the data was presented


----------



## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> 1,. Thanks for proving it is reagent ( 3 M's) only and not definitive with regard to substance or mg content -- with Marquis, mecke, and mandelin reagent tests -- you CANNOT exclude PIPERAZINES as a component== period, nor can you distinguish between MDA and MDMA or MDEA and MDMA ( you need a simon's or Froedhe test)
> 
> Using these 3 reagents only -- there is no way to definitively say it is ONLY MDMA or even ONLY MDXX
> 
> 
> 2. High 2 days later makes one think it is MDA plus some unreactive compound   -- which it COULD BE because MDA and MDMA will have the exact same profile with Marquis, Mecke, and Mandelin
> 
> 3. British Columbia is the source of the majority of US MDMA
> 
> 4. The BLACK result versus purple plus the length of effect makes one think it could be 5-APB or 6-APB as well as MDXX



It's not just 3 reagent testing.  It's full GC/MS testing which will identify all substances.  GC/MS will separate MDMA from MDA from MDE etc.  The only difference in testing between US pills and European pills on edata is the listing of mgs of each substance.  But the full GC/MS testing is done on all samples.  They additionally test with the 3 reagents, but always use GC/MS as well.


----------



## consumer

I give up on this thread. Shugenja and his aggressive closed mind has killed any reasonable discussion. Clearly anything but what he says is incorrect. / leaves thread


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> It's not just 3 reagent testing.  It's full GC/MS testing which will identify all substances.  GC/MS will separate MDMA from MDA from MDE etc.  The only difference in testing between US pills and European pills on edata is the listing of mgs of each substance.  But the full GC/MS testing is done on all samples.  They additionally test with the 3 reagents, but always use GC/MS as well.




I stand corrected on the GCMS -- after realizing how the data was presented


----------



## shugenja

consumer said:


> I give up on this thread. Shugenja and his aggressive closed mind has killed any reasonable discussion. Clearly anything but what he says is incorrect. / leaves thread




I stand corrected on the GCMS - after realizing how the data was presented


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> I know there's no mention of mgs with regards to US pills, but the fact I was literally still high 2 days later tells me the mgs are high.
> 
> 
> Le Junk



WHich means it's not the r-isomer

 so all the BS about different MDMA is exactly that BS

if it was all MDMA it would be 359 mg

if half was binder -- 180 mg

regardless 2 days from ~200 mg = bomb ass E  -- not bunk r-isomer


----------



## consumer

Why is this funny?


----------



## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> WHich means it's not the r-isomer
> 
> so all the BS about different MDMA is exactly that BS
> 
> if it was all MDMA it would be 359 mg
> 
> if half was binder -- 180 mg
> 
> regardless 2 days from ~200 mg = bomb ass E  -- not bunk r-isomer



I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree then.  If the lab tested MDMA I'm taking is pretty much free of love and empathy, has a horrible comedown with a crackhead afterglow, I'm saying the MDMA I'm taking is made incorrectly.  Whether it's the r isomer or whatever.  Something is definitely wrong.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

Perhaps some clarity said it before saying it again. The OP and subsequent posters don't say all MDMA is now different. We say some or at least the majority of pressed pills that are theoretically European origin are off. 

GCMS lets get things straight. It's not foolproof. It only searches for what is in the data bank not what maybe in the pill / powder. 

What we are all trying to work out is why? 

Price has dropped FACT
Dosages have gone through the stratosphere FACT
Tests show MDMA by reagent and GCMS
Some refuse the racemic argument, the only theory

I'm happy for shugenja they have maintained there quality. I'd ask have they tried a euro yet? 

What we do see purely as anecdotal is reagent difference between pills and powder tested as MDMA GCMS. I'd welcome thought on why a marquis can and does go so many different colours from GCMS tested product as clearly no one here has access or able to perform anything else without putting faith in a GCMS by third party. 

Who knows? could be that if I were a large scale manufacturer I'd have my own GCMS and be designing my "drug" to pass. It's human nature to find a way to beat the test. More so when millions of dollars are involved. Ever heard the term designer drugs?

Brits flapping in toilets? FUBAR.


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree then.  If the lab tested MDMA I'm taking is pretty much free of love and empathy, has a horrible comedown with a crackhead afterglow, I'm saying the MDMA I'm taking is made incorrectly.  Whether it's the r isomer or whatever.  Something is definitely wrong.




Taking 200+ mg (or more) of MDMA is known result in a much more stimulant like effect and much less empathy, as well as significant comedown.

Take into account the metabolic differences post 45 (seriously it has an impact) and it can easily account for your experience.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja thinks that mechanistic organic chemistry, subjective drug effects, and pharmacology are all concrete black and white things that can be easily understood and predicted by things he cut and pastes from the internet.

I'm not going to predict for you want glycidic impurities could be complexing with reduction catalyst or the reaction substrate.  You cannot predict such things based on pushing arrows and reading phrases from chemistry articles....you seem to think that chemistry is that simple and predictable,,,you are severely mistaken.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

Le Junk said:


> I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree then.  If the lab tested MDMA I'm taking is pretty much free of love and empathy, has a horrible comedown with a crackhead afterglow, I'm saying the MDMA I'm taking is made incorrectly.  Whether it's the r isomer or whatever.  Something is definitely wrong.



have you read the last two pages of this thread?  I don't think he's capable of even agreeing on the fact that you both disagree


----------



## TruthSeeking

I really enjoy this thread even amidst the bickering and disagreements between the major contributors.  My science and chemistry knowledge is sub-basic although have had hundreds of conversations with many consistent users of current products and it seems to affect everyone much differently.  Most do not even understand the differences nor really care (IE: EDC 2016 experiences walking around every day at the festival noticing over half of the crowds seemed very zombie-esque and even my own tribe looked very zoned out and anti-social).

I'm sure you all have read this article many times before but I thought it was rather interesting and always makes me laugh outloud while reading.  I hope someday we are able to recreate this era of supposed never ending nirvana.  

https://www.playboy.com/articles/ecstasy-was-legal-in-1984-and-it-was-glorious


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> shugenja thinks that mechanistic organic chemistry, subjective drug effects, and pharmacology are all concrete black and white things that can be easily understood and predicted by things he cut and pastes from the internet.
> 
> I'm not going to predict for you want glycidic impurities could be complexing with reduction catalyst or the reaction substrate.  You cannot predict such things based on pushing arrows and reading phrases from chemistry articles....you seem to think that chemistry is that simple and predictable,,,you are severely mistaken.




Chemistry is a deterministic, discrete,  science  -- if you state otherwise - you are a fool.  NaOH + HCl  in the proper molar fractions will always = Salt water and never equal something else

Elements can only form compounds according to a finite set of reactions, in a finite set of combinations.

This is not a point open for discussion, it is settled science.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> have you read the last two pages of this thread?  I don't think he's capable of even agreeing on the fact that you both disagree



Man up and propose an actual catalytic reaction and reaction product that will skew the isomeric ratio from any non-explosive MDMA synthesis.

All this BS about isomeric ratios.

It's more likely someone got ahold of r-MDA (which has a published, reasonably trivial synth) and used it as the base for MDMA synthesis -- resulting in r-MDMA -- but even that is really unlikely as the MDA itself could easily be sold.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> shugenja thinks that mechanistic organic chemistry, subjective drug effects, and pharmacology are all concrete black and white things that can be easily understood and predicted by things he cut and pastes from the internet.
> 
> I'm not going to predict for you want glycidic impurities could be complexing with reduction catalyst or the reaction substrate.  You cannot predict such things based on pushing arrows and reading phrases from chemistry articles....you seem to think that chemistry is that simple and predictable,,,you are severely mistaken.



Why not?

You have a methylenedioxy phenyl-acetone substrate, and only a short list of catalysts that won't explosively react with methylamine, nitromethane, and/or ammonia.

possible epoxide, possible carboxylate, and possible alcohol reactions are well documented for all metals  -- it's not theoretical 

oxygen and hydrogen affinities are well defined and documented for every species that could evolve

stop playing dumb -- you know I'm correct


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> Man up and propose an actual catalytic reaction and reaction product that will skew the isomeric ratio from any non-explosive MDMA synthesis.



you think that all of mechanistic organic chemistry  can be known and predicted by pushing arrows and applying chemical theory....

I am saying I believe that things can happen during chemical reactions that people were not expecting.


I wonder why people even try doing chemistry if everything can be known and predicted beforehand.   They should probably shut down all research labs and just have shugenja tell them whether or not a reaction is possible


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> you think that all of mechanistic organic chemistry  can be known and predicted by pushing arrows and applying chemical theory....
> 
> I am saying I believe that things can happen during chemical reactions that people were not expecting.
> 
> 
> I wonder why people even try doing chemistry if everything can be known and predicted beforehand.   They should probably shut down all research labs and just have shugenja tell them whether or not a reaction is possible



Propose something that could happen from your proposed substrate(s), catalyst(s), and other compounds.

Seriously -- falsify my argument -- that's what science is about.

The issue here is that 

1. There are not that many catalysts that will support the MDP2P - MDMA process, that have a reasonable yield (hell there are not that many period) -- these "clandestine yahoos" who according to you cant decant and use filter paper, wouldn't stray from known synths for fear of losing all that precious MDP2P.

2. People perform synthesis -- because they know what is going to happen -- see#1 nobody is doing experimental chemistry -- they are using known synths

3. I'm still waiting for an example of a minor contaminant forcing all molecules in a solution toward one stereo-isomer  (in a catalytic reaction they cannot actually be part of), instead of the molar fraction of the reaction relative to the contaminant  -- if an epoxide or carboxylate bonds to the metal -- it can't catalyze the reaction between MDP2P and methylamine


----------



## LucidSDreamr

any O lone pair of pmk/glycidate derived material....donating into an empty metal d orbital during the reduction step of the reductive amination,  

if you don't believe that an O lone pair can donate into an empty d orbital of a metal....I don't know what else to say to you.  I'm not going to propose the exact structure of a catalytic intermediate because its FACT of chemistry that you cannot prove any mechaism....only disprove mechanisms...therefore its on you to disprove why this isn't a possibility....not up to me to prove an exact mechanism and intermediates.

again...call all mechanistic  research labs and tell them to shutdown since there is no point to researching mechanisms since everything has a limited number of possibilities...all predictable based on textbooks and chemical theory


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> any O lone pair of pmk/glycidate derived material....donating into an empty metal d orbital during the reduction step of the reductive amination,
> 
> if you don't believe that an O lone pair can donate into an empty d orbital of a metal....I don't know what else to say to you.  I'm not going to propose the exact structure of a catalytic intermediate because its FACT of chemistry that you cannot prove any mechaism....only disprove mechanisms...therefore its on you to disprove why this isn't a possibility....not up to me to prove an exact mechanism and intermediates.
> 
> again...call all mechanistic  research labs and tell them to shutdown since there is no point to researching mechanisms since everything has a limited number of possibilities...all predictable based on textbooks and chemical theory



Lithium Oxide  -- if formed would bubble out of solution -- it's ground state is a gas
Mercuric oxide  -- a solid which decomposes quickly back to Hg and O2
Aluminum Oxide - an inert solid 
Cupric Oxide  CuO and Cu2O are stable -- other Cu oxide decompose back to CU and O2
Nickel Oxide -- won't happen below 400 celsius  (only happens above 400C)
Platinum Oxide -- that's the actual catalyst is an obscure synthesis (Adam's catalyst) -- so the extra oxygen -- hopefully evolves out, forms a stable bond, or or Boom!


Do you want me to go through the epoxides and the carboxylates also


----------



## LucidSDreamr

I'm talking about the reductive amination step.....delivery of hydride to the imminium.   lots of Rh and Ir catalysts than can accept LP electrons, please name  every Rh Ir known in the scientific literature  and all other known reductive ammination catalysts and please describe why they cannot accept LP electrons from oxygen.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> any O lone pair of pmk/glycidate derived material....donating into an empty metal d orbital during the reduction step of the reductive amination,



What do you think must be cleaved from the MDP2P to make MDMA??   the oxygen !!  -- it gets replaced with a methyl group

And you are worried about a possible oxygen pair from leftover glycidic acid ???really


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> I'm talking about the reductive amination step.....delivery of hydride to the imminium.   lots of Rh and Ir catalysts than can accept LP electrons, please name  every Rh Ir known in the scientific literature  and all other known reductive ammination catalysts and please describe why they cannot accept LP electrons from oxygen.




What do you think must be cleaved from the MDP2P to make MDMA?? the oxygen !! -- it gets replaced with a methyl group

And you are worried about a possible oxygen pair from leftover glycidic acid ???really

Not to mention there is a lot of hydrogen hanging out to form water with that extra oxygen


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> I'm talking about the reductive amination step.....delivery of hydride to the imminium.   lots of Rh and Ir catalysts than can accept LP electrons, please name  every Rh Ir known in the scientific literature  and all other known reductive ammination catalysts and please describe why they cannot accept LP electrons from oxygen.




Yeah, and the only way to use Rh to create a chiral catalyst is by using a special organo-phosphorus napthalene compound -- so you propose somehow phosphorus has been added and managed to forma super complex compound called BINAP -- really??

Crabtree's catalyst (Ir) does not tolerate amines

And it becomes irreversibly deactivated after 10 minutes -- Ir isn't cheap either

Aluminum and mercury however, are quite inexpensive.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

im done with you for real this time man....good luck with that type of attitude doing chemistry...I'm sure you'll get really far and make tons of friends


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> im done with you for real this time man....good luck with that type of attitude doing chemistry...I'm sure you'll get really far and make tons of friends




FYI -- in industry -- the real world -- applied chemistry

If you can't show all the compounds and steps in a proposed synthesis either using simulations or based on known proven reactions -- your idea won't go anywhere.


----------



## Biscuit

> Perhaps some clarity said it before saying it again. The OP and subsequent posters don't say all MDMA is now different. We say some or at least the majority of pressed pills that are theoretically European origin are off.
> 
> GCMS lets get things straight. It's not foolproof. It only searches for what is in the data bank not what maybe in the pill / powder.
> 
> What we are all trying to work out is why?
> 
> Price has dropped FACT
> Dosages have gone through the stratosphere FACT
> Tests show MDMA by reagent and GCMS
> Some refuse the racemic argument, the only theory



Amen to this. This is all that this thread was meant to be about - discussion of possible theories as to the cause of what is an undeniable phenomenon being routinely encountered in SOME of the MEGA dosed pills that have flooded the worldwide market over the past few years.

I have seen many recent lab analysis results performed by a government laboratory for pills seized in Australia and they have invariably contained MDMA only. Where they haven't, the labs have been able to report some of the more novel substances, such as from the APB and ADPB series and various substituted cathinones. 

Whilst most of these pills haven't included the mega dosed ones, as they are rarely the subject of large seizures in Australia, the laboratory recently reported on one of these pills (very common in Europe late last year) and confirmed that it contained MDMA only, was of high purity and of a ~ 200mg dose. For reasons of confidentiality and because revealing too much information is unnecessary for the point which I am making, I won't say which one. Anyone who cares will just have to trust my honesty and the accuracy of my source, but hopefully my regular contributions to this site for over 16 and a half years will suffice.


----------



## shugenja

Biscuit said:


> Amen to this. This is all that this thread was meant to be about - discussion of possible theories as to the cause of what is an undeniable phenomenon being routinely encountered in SOME of the MEGA dosed pills that have flooded the worldwide market over the past few years.



It was presented as most or all of the new MDMA.

Regardless.  If it is a small percentage, and you stipulate it is an isomer issue, then the most logical and likely instigator is r-MDA.

MDP2P is reacted with r- benzylmethylamine -- which gives an R,R intermediate -- a few reductions gets you to isomeric r-MDA.  

If r-MDA is used as the starting point for the PIHKAL synthesis, you will end up with r-MDMA.


No super secret catalysts, no "bigfoot" or"ufo" type intermediate substrates needed.


Somebody got a hold of a batch of the r-MDA (the isomer of MDA you want) and used it as the start for MDMA -- no MDP2P needed. (another point that makes this more likely than some fanciful glycidic impurity)

They realized it was ass, so they mix it with racemic MDMA.

MDA (and MDMA) -- are extremely stable if stored away from moisture, extreme heat, and extreme UV.  MDA will last for decades.  Somebody likely happened upon a cache left over from whenever.


_____________________________

Of note re: r-isomer MDMA -- even at 200mg+  there is no mydriasis (pupillary dilation) nor jaw clenching

'Quasar' Research Monograph 22.
Absolute Configuration and Psychotomimetic Activity.
G.M.Anderson III, Gisela Braun, Ulrich Braun, David E. Nichols, and Alexander T. Shulgin.


----------



## Biscuit

> Of note re: r-isomer MDMA -- even at 200mg+ there is no mydriasis (pupillary dilation) nor jaw clenching
> 
> 'Quasar' Research Monograph 22.
> Absolute Configuration and Psychotomimetic Activity.
> G.M.Anderson III, Gisela Braun, Ulrich Braun, David E. Nichols, and Alexander T. Shulgin


 Precisely what I have found. I never said it was all of them and many may be non-racemic but not of a single isomer. Maybe the entire theory is complete bunkum. What we need is a lab willing to do the isomer ratio tests on a handful of pills. it can be done and anyone with sufficient connection to any of these places could request it.


----------



## Dresden

Anyone with a very inexpensive hand held manual polarimeter could do it.  But it is my ubderstanding that the new MDMA is made from PMK aka MDP2P and that that means the resulting MDMA is 50:50 R:S unless and until chiral separation is performed.  Why would its manufacturers go through such a difficult step only to end up with an inferior product?  My own experience taking the safole versus the glycidate derived MDMA and the fact that in the old days good pills brought many times the price of the new stuff tells me something, perhaps some kind of impurity (or lack thereof), is seriously amiss with the MDMA in these new high dose pills.


----------



## Dresden

Plus, these new pills are speedy, which is usually attributed to the effects S, not R, MDMA.


----------



## shugenja

Biscuit said:


> Precisely what I have found. I never said it was all of them and many may be non-racemic but not of a single isomer. Maybe the entire theory is complete bunkum. What we need is a lab willing to do the isomer ratio tests on a handful of pills. it can be done and anyone with sufficient connection to any of these places could request it.




Have you considered it could be a positional/skeletal/functional isomer of MDMA and or a closely related substance that has a parent mass close enough to MDMA to fall where the MDMA peak would be?

2,3 MDMA
or 

6-methyl-MDA -- 

6-Methyl-MDA has IC50 values of 783nM, 28,300nM, and 4,602nM for inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine in rat synaptosomes
Thus, while several-fold less potent than its analogues 2-methyl-MDA and 5-methyl-MDA, and approximately half as potent as MDA, 6-methyl-MDA is still significantly active,[1] and appropriate doses may be similar to or somewhat higher than those of MDMA."

Without ion-mobility mass spectrometry or other specialized MS -- you cannot necessarily distinguish between structural/skeletal/or functional isomers, especially if they exit the GC column at near the same time as MDMA is expected to


----------



## consumer

shugenja. Are you always so aggressive to others and so "blinkered"in your thinking. You have turned a discussion into a slanging match. Have you ever taken mdma as it obviously has not had any impact on your personality. I am done with this thread. Your energy is toxic.


----------



## StoneHappyMonday

We just used to blame the criminals and 'the market' but you know what? I reckon the more chemists (literally) there became involved, the less fun MDMA became.

Yes, fun shugenja. Things used to be fun. A concept I'm not entirely sure you are conversant with.


----------



## shugenja

StoneHappyMonday said:


> We just used to blame the criminals and 'the market' but you know what? I reckon the more chemists (literally) there became involved, the less fun MDMA became.
> 
> Yes, fun shugenja. Things used to be fun. A concept I'm not entirely sure you are conversant with.




Things are still plenty fun.

But this thread isn't about fun.

It's about a theory, based on chemistry -- science  and one of the main principles in science is challenging theories until they hold up under scrutiny, or they fall apart


A bunch of people went and got their feelings hurt -- boo fucking hoo


I haven't heard a peep regarding structural isomers  -- 

Structural isomers have the exact same mass, and the exact same building blocks  -- meaning they may (some absolutely do) look like the same parent and child compounds to a mass spectrometer. (the MS part of GCMS)

Some elute from the column of a Gas Chromatograph at the same time  -- meaning the GC portion of GCMS sees them as the same thing.

This is a known issue with certain compounds and GCMS.

6-Methyl-MDA is a structural isomer of 3,4 MDMA -- as is 2,3 MDMA

6-Methyl MDA has an effects profile that matches the 'new MDMA'


----------



## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> Of note re: r-isomer MDMA -- even at 200mg+  there is no mydriasis (pupillary dilation) nor jaw clenching
> 
> 'Quasar' Research Monograph 22.
> Absolute Configuration and Psychotomimetic Activity.
> G.M.Anderson III, Gisela Braun, Ulrich Braun, David E. Nichols, and Alexander T. Shulgin.



I should have prolly mentioned before, with this new type of MDMA, pupil dialation is minimal if at all.  A huge side effect I neglected to mention.  With my old school white crystalline powder, my pupils are dilated to the very edge.


----------



## Dracarys

To all the people who're tired of taking XTC, never knowing exactly what is in their pills, often dissapointed with the poor quality of what's available...i would realy recommend trying pure mescaline for a change. Mescaline is the best of all the phenethylamines IMO. It basically has the hallucinogen effects of LSD, paired with the empathogenic effects of realy good quality MDMA. I would say it's better even than both. Try it. You'll love it.


----------



## Dresden

The new MDMA is almost certainly not 2,3-MDA or 5-methyl-MDA.  Structural isomers are easily differentiated from each other by GC/MS.  And I read an interview in Mixmag where they quoted someone familiar with the new process confirming the new MDMA is made from the glycidate precursor.


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> The new MDMA is almost certainly not 2,3-MDA or 5-methyl-MDA.  Structural isomers are easily differentiated from each other by GC/MS.  And I read an interview in Mixmag where they quoted someone familiar with the new process confirming the new MDMA is made from the glycidate precursor.



Not always -- 

There are many examples of structural (gemetric) isomers where the differences fall within the analytical noise and cannot be distinguished.

Ion-mobility, and or a more differentiating spectroscopy -- like the IR identified below is needed.


"_*For the identification of structural isomers, MS only provides information consistent with isomer class identification, proving to be inconclusive for the identification of individual isomers."

*_http://www.labmanager.com/how-it-wo...guish-structural-isomers?fw1pk=2#.V37YC7grKUk


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> I should have prolly mentioned before, with this new type of MDMA, pupil dialation is minimal if at all.  A huge side effect I neglected to mention.  With my old school white crystalline powder, my pupils are dilated to the very edge.



Except r-MDMA won't make you still high after 2 days -- as you so eloquently reproted.


----------



## oldskoolroller

Dracarys said:


> To all the people who're tired of taking XTC, never knowing exactly what is in their pills, often dissapointed with the poor quality of what's available...i would realy recommend trying pure mescaline for a change. Mescaline is the best of all the phenethylamines IMO. It basically has the hallucinogen effects of LSD, paired with the empathogenic effects of realy good quality MDMA. I would say it's better even than both. Try it. You'll love it.




 I haven't done mescaline in about 18 years . I do remember those trips being exactly like you just described.  I might have to keep my eye out for some !


----------



## Dresden

They're talking about enantiomeric isomers.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> Structural isomers have the exact same mass, and the exact same building blocks  -- meaning they may (some absolutely do) look like the same parent and child compounds to a mass spectrometer. (the MS part of GCMS)
> 
> Some elute from the column of a Gas Chromatograph at the same time  -- meaning the GC portion of GCMS sees them as the same thing.
> 
> This is a known issue with certain compounds and GCMS.
> 
> 6-Methyl-MDA is a structural isomer of 3,4 MDMA -- as is 2,3 MDMA
> 
> 6-Methyl MDA has an effects profile that matches the 'new MDMA'



Im back, I can't argue with you anymore about the new synthesis so don't even bring it up with me, because you hurt my feelings...but this is fertile ground for correcting you again

No legitimate analytical lab would choose to not monitor the product ions of the fragmentation, (look up MRM/SIM analysis industry standard for confirming).  otherwise like you said there are potentially many things that could give the same mass as mdma. Any lab that put out results and wouldn't monitor MRM fragmentations would have probably been shut down or gone out of business by now. 

Therefore 6-Methyl-MDA would be eliminated very easily as a possibility, even with the same retention time as mdma (which is also not much of a possibility to happen).

METH-edrone (not MEPH-edrone)   Is a better example that could be confused from MDMA by MRM mass spectrometry.  But could be differentiated by color change reagent kits which i believe the OP also used to test no?...although the pills could be a mix of both mdma and methedrone and give the black color.

Sorry thanks for playing though.


----------



## Le Junk

LucidSDreamr said:


> Im back, I can't argue with you anymore about the new synthesis so don't even bring it up with me, because you hurt my feelings...but this is fertile ground for correcting you again
> 
> No legitimate analytical lab would choose to not monitor the product ions of the fragmentation, (look up MRM/SIM analysis industry standard for confirming).  otherwise like you said there are potentially many things that could give the same mass as mdma. Any lab that put out results and wouldn't monitor MRM fragmentations would have probably been shut down or gone out of business by now.
> 
> Therefore 6-Methyl-MDA would be eliminated very easily as a possibility, even with the same retention time as mdma (which is also not much of a possibility to happen).
> 
> METH-edrone (not MEPH-edrone)   Is a better example that could be confused from MDMA by MRM mass spectrometry.  But could be differentiated by color change reagent kits which i believe the OP also used to test no?...although the pills could be a mix of both mdma and methedrone and give the black color.
> 
> Sorry thanks for playing though.


 
I actually haven't performed a reagent test yet.  But I still have some of this crap left.  Which tests would you recommend and I'll get them.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

...whichever ones show that cathinones will turn red.   I am sure they won't because this mass produced pills would be giving tons of negative results everywhere in the world if that was the case.  Doesn't mean they didn't spike it with mdma to fool reagent tests.   The only way to disprove my theory on the METH-drone would be to send it back to a lab and ask that they rule out METHedrone as being present, which according to the science literature can easily be confused for mdma on the GCMS or LCMS tests. 

If I were you I would write to some university professors that ressearch in this fields, maybe show them this thread....maybe MAPS can point you in the right direction...Its something that even a high volume analytical testing lab might not be catching and will require experimentation and development of new methods not used in routine practice to figure out if this is a real or imagined phenomena.   

There could also be impurities present in the final MDMA which somehow change the subjective effects...a lab  may not catch these impurities if they don't consider them being there.  Its a very complicated problem to solve if it is a real thing....they would have to look at the chemical composition itself and do research on the pharmacology of it depending what advanced analysis shows.

or they could just conclude results with 100% certainty based on theory and other slightly related science thats been done without doing any experimentation....like other posters in this thread seem to believe is possible to conclude something.


----------



## StoneHappyMonday

The chemistry may be complicated.

The experienced users subjective experience isn't.


----------



## shugenja

except that the mixmag article talks about how great the pills are

and there is not one -- NOT 1 --- reasonable process path that will result in a chiral isomer of MDMA from PMK-glycidate


----------



## shugenja

StoneHappyMonday said:


> The chemistry may be complicated.
> 
> The experienced users subjective experience isn't.




And the most REASONABLE hypothesis (assuming the r-isomer argument) is that someone found a bunch/made a bunch of r-isomeric MDA (cause there is a published EASY synthesis - and that's the MDA isomer you want) and then decided to make MDMA from it 

which would give you r-MDMA

not some BS crap about PMK-gly * which has been used in MDMA synth since 2010

the second most reasonable hypothesis is a structural isomer -- (geometric, skeletal, functional) 

The least likely is some fanciful glycidic impurity that can "infect" the entire synthesis and cause a chiral excess*


----------



## oldskoolroller

shugenja said:


> And the most REASONABLE hypothesis (assuming the r-isomer argument) is that someone found a bunch/made a bunch of r-isomeric MDA (cause there is a published EASY synthesis - and that's the MDA isomer you want) and then decided to make MDMA from it
> 
> which would give you r-MDMA
> 
> not some BS crap about PMK-gly * which has been used in MDMA synth since 2010
> 
> the second most reasonable hypothesis is a structural isomer -- (geometric, skeletal, functional)
> 
> The least likely is some fanciful glycidic impurity that can "infect" the entire synthesis and cause a chiral excess*




 I would love some mda . As long as this has been going on though , that would have been a large batch  of mda they ruined !


----------



## Le Junk

Interestingly enough, this new type of MDMA much more  resembles MDA than it does old-school MDMA.   Especially the comedown and the following day or two.

Le Junk


----------



## Dresden

Well if the new stuff is R-MDMA, it will be a super easy hypothesis to test.  But back to the GC/MS discussion, geometric isomers don't always have a lot in common.  For example, epedrine and PMA.


----------



## Dresden

EPHEDRINE


----------



## Dresden

PMA


----------



## Dresden

Aleo, if someone had perfectly good R-MDA, why on earth would they go to the trouble of converting it to shitty R-MDMA?


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> Aleo, if someone had perfectly good R-MDA, why on earth would they go to the trouble of converting it to shitty R-MDMA?




Because they didn't know it was r-MDA

Like I said -- it could very well be left over from long ago


----------



## Dresden

You want a hand-held, manual polarimeter.


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> You want a hand-held, manual polarimeter.




The pure MDMA would have to be extracted from the pills as any adulterants would cause the rotation to be skewed.


----------



## Brenner

shugenja said:


> The pure MDMA would have to be extracted from the pills as any adulterants would cause the rotation to be skewed.



Whilst everyone else may complain about your general attitude, I admire your dedication to the subject. What would you suggest we do to try and solve the mystery? Keeping in mind we should work as a team here and not be arguing with each other


----------



## Dresden

shugenja said:


> The pure MDMA would have to be extracted from the pills as any adulterants would cause the rotation to be skewed.


 
I had an 8 ball of pure powder of the new stuff.  That was what I thought you had.


----------



## Dresden

It's not the R isomer anyway.


----------



## shugenja

Brenner said:


> Whilst everyone else may complain about your general attitude, I admire your dedication to the subject. What would you suggest we do to try and solve the mystery? Keeping in mind we should work as a team here and not be arguing with each other




Treat it as science, and start the process by attempting to falsify the initial hypothesis of pure r-isomer.

This could be done by extracting the MDMA -- testing for purity by melting point, and then using a polarimeter, Mosher's process, or some other low cost but scientifically effective process.

If we made the free base from the purified MDMA -- and then used r-tartaric acid (chiral) to precipitate MDMA-tartrate, if it was only 1 isomer it would all precipitate out, OR NONE WOULD -- if the free-base partially precipitated -- racemic


The next steps could be done in any order.  Simply because GCMS says it's MDMA -- does not mean it actually IS MDMA.

Regardless of protestation to the contrary, skeletal, functional, and geometric isomers (that have many functional groups in common) can be very difficult to differentiate with standard GCMS.

5-Methyl MDA and 6-Methyl MDA are both isomers (not stereo) of MDMA , as is 2,3 MDMA

The methyl MDA compounds have a profile of effect that is similar to what is reported.

Just because something is pressed the same -- does not mean it's the same batch.



Le Junk identified that the "mongy" MDMA made him cracked out and high for 2 days -- that is not what r-MDMA does, it has a very slight action (+1) even at 200 mg that is gone in 6 hours

5-APB or 6-APB however, are 2 compounds that are remarkably identical to MDMA in effect  --_* some people say better *_a 200 mg dose of an APB would probably make you feel high for 2 days (75 mg can rock you for 12 hours)

the mongy effects sound alot like higher doses of 5-Methyl or 6-Methyl MDA -- wonder if they look like MDMA to a GCMS 

They could be slightly different but in the sample noise


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> Aleo, if someone had perfectly good R-MDA, why on earth would they go to the trouble of converting it to shitty R-MDMA?




Cause it was just laying around and -- they think MDMA is more marketable -- I mean -- that's more likely than some fantastical impurity from glycidic acid and a rare metal catalyst that even at 1% somehow can poison the entire reaction to become stereo=--isomerically pure 

WITHOUT :

Blowing up the lab

or

ruining the synth


The extra oxygens from glycidic acid are not a super safe thing to have running amok in your reaction vessel(s)


----------



## Le Junk

I'm going to email edata and ask if they can go further with another one of these supremes. I'll gladly pay whatever extra fees they impose for the effort.  Is there anything specific I should be asking them to perform?

Le Junk


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> I'm going to email edata and ask if they can go further with another one of these supremes. I'll gladly pay whatever extra fees they impose for the effort.  Is there anything specific I should be asking them to perform?
> 
> Le Junk




You could propose that the substance may be stereo-isomerically pure, or propose it may be a structural isomer  of MDMA(for example 2,3 MDMA; 5-Methyl MDA ; or 6-Methyl MDA)

and ask them to use advanced GCMS techniques to differentiate the possible isomer (Ion-Mobility MS can differentiate between structural isomers that have the same functional groups)


You may also request they perform a mosher's analysis.

You could also request they test the melting point: MDMA = 147-153 C;  5-Methyl MDA 6-Methyl MDA and 2-Methyl MDA = 214-215 C;


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> I'm going to email edata and ask if they can go further with another one of these supremes. I'll gladly pay whatever extra fees they impose for the effort.  Is there anything specific I should be asking them to perform?
> 
> Le Junk




If the pill you sent in tested as MDMA by GCMS -- and it also gives you a much harder longer roll -- it may just be a really high dose , and the methoxy-amphetamine metabolites (HMA, HMMA) and MDA are causing the effects

Absent that -- X-Methyl MDA (or another structural isomer) is a very reasonable possibility (X = 2, 5 or 6)

MDMA can't be the only mass spike seen, the binder will spike, 

-- there is also a possibility that another active (research) chemical  has the same mass as some binder component and is hidden in the analytical noise of the gas column

of note  C11H15NO2  -- means MDMA and X-Methyl MDA will be in the same parent compound mass spike -- and the fact they have common functional groups will make it hard to distinguish parent/child products in the gas column  -- if they exit the column around the same time -- without serous calibration, and a tech looking for it, it could easily be seen as the same thing


----------



## Broseph Smith

I like turtles!


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

shugenja said:


> I just searched the e-data site for pills that tested ONLY MDMA from 2000-2016
> 
> The ONLY pills with mg identified are from Spain, Zurich, Bern, or Vienna/Austria) -- with the exception of 4 reports from USA (blaine, washington -2008  )of ~50 mg content.
> 
> 
> There are people on this forum asserting there is evidence based on mg content of isomeric MDMA -- There isn't.
> 
> Furthermore (without searching 1100 records, but sampling) the form of test was reagent, mainly marquis, mecke, and mandelin -- which can't differentiate between MDA/MDMA/MDA/X-APB  and can't exclude piperazines as they don't react with those tests
> 
> 
> I welcome your response.



I think you will find that a lot of test centres don't allow open publication of results. For example there are 3 test centres in Holland I know of. All carry out GC/MS and give a mg per pill. The UK test centre also carrys out GCMS but doesn't publish the actually mg. 

However you were on the better track of the actual GC/MS method and data bank. Human beings when given a problem look for a way to beat it. As you rightly stated GC/MS is only in basing its result on a know peak and trough profile and assuming the peaks it sees are MDMA because data gathered prior from a known pure sample showed the same.

It would be interesting to know how often the data bank for GCMS is updated. Also GCMS only tests and can identify known substances, there may well be small but very potent new chemicals within a sample but the reporter will always look at the highest % sometimes discounting others.


----------



## Bearlove

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> I think you will find that a lot of test centres don't allow open publication of results. For example there are 3 test centres in Holland I know of. All carry out GC/MS and give a mg per pill. The UK test centre Wedinos also carrys out GCMS but doesn't publish the actually mg.
> 
> We were contacted by a few of the Labs in Holland and asked to keep lab names off the site as this can cause problems with funding.


----------



## BlueBull

Merging this with the already existing thread and editing out the lab names


----------



## StoneHappyMonday

shugenja said:


> 5-APB or 6-APB however, are 2 compounds that are remarkably identical to MDMA in effect  --_* some people say better *_a 200 mg dose of an APB would probably make you feel high for 2 days (75 mg can rock you for 12 hours)



I am not a scientist and cannot and would not begin to question any chemistry knowledge you've laid out in this thread. The last few posts look like they may be moving in a particularly interesting direction with Le Junk offering to go further and wanting to know what to ask.

However. What I have quoted you saying here is, IMO, bunk. Define 'remarkably identical'. Because you must have a different definition to me. There is no way I could say those two quoted compounds are even anywhere close to 'remarkably identical' to MDMA. It is hyperbole like that which made vendors lots of money from selling inferior products. And there is no way apb products, dosed at even 200mg, make you "high for two days".

When you write stuff like that, stuff I certainly know about, I have to then reluctantly wonder about other stuff you write. Because what you've written in that quote is simply incorrect. And no, I'm not even doubting "some people" say 'better than MDMA'. But I learned discernment many years ago.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

Bearlove said:


> Itsgoneundertheboa said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you will find that a lot of test centres don't allow open publication of results. For example there are 3 test centres in Holland I know of. All carry out GC/MS and give a mg per pill. The UK test centre Wedinos also carrys out GCMS but doesn't publish the actually mg.
> 
> We were contacted by a few of the Labs in Holland and asked to keep lab names off the site as this can cause problems with funding.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly why I didn't mention them by name ?
Click to expand...


----------



## shugenja

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> I think you will find that a lot of test centres don't allow open publication of results. For example there are 3 test centres in Holland I know of. All carry out GC/MS and give a mg per pill. The UK test centre also carrys out GCMS but doesn't publish the actually mg.
> 
> However you were on the better track of the actual GC/MS method and data bank. Human beings when given a problem look for a way to beat it. As you rightly stated GC/MS is only in basing its result on a know peak and trough profile and assuming the peaks it sees are MDMA because data gathered prior from a known pure sample showed the same.
> 
> It would be interesting to know how often the data bank for GCMS is updated. Also GCMS only tests and can identify known substances, there may well be small but very potent new chemicals within a sample but the reporter will always look at the highest % sometimes discounting others.




I overlooked that e-data does do GCMS in the US -- however, they don't report mg content.

My point was that GCMS has issues differentiating between isomers that have functional groups in common -- the mass of both substances is the same, as are the masses of child compounds.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

shugenja said:


> I overlooked that e-data does do GCMS in the US -- however, they don't report mg content.
> 
> My point was that GCMS has issues differentiating between isomers that have functional groups in common -- the mass of both substances is the same, as are the masses of child compounds.



Correct and GCMS I say again is only based and can only identify on what is in the data bank. Clearly you do have some deep knowledge of chemistry however as has been stated before chemistry is not a known science where everything is known. Look at the periodic table do you use the new one or the old one? 

Look at cocaine. After the war on drugs in South America the availability of growing areas was drastically reduced. It's suggested they took out over 60%. However production increased. It is known that cocaine manufacturers have found new ways to increase yields way above what was thought possible. New adulterants have been found namely Levisamole. These are in the product at source not added after. No one yet knows why. Theory suggest that new methods of manufacture have increased that yield but changed the high of cocaine. Le Junk also has said this many times. He no longer finds cocaine the same. 

Theories you have suggested all surround the known synthesis you know. Rest assured there are chemists out there who are capable of going outside the box. There remit will be to produce a compound which mimics MDMA for far less money and time using more available precursors. That my friend is what chemical engineering is. To find ways to produce a product at a lower cost. It's what all the big chemical companies do. There are industrial  chemicals now which use new methods of manufacture never before considered possible.


----------



## shugenja

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> There remit will be to produce a compound which mimics MDMA for far less money and time using more available precursors.




There is already a list.

However, what is proposed is something that matches MDMA mass C11H15NO2

There are only so many ways you can re-arrange C11H15NO2 and end up with an active non-toxic substance.


----------



## Dresden

Face the facts.  The quality of the MDMA experience depends on the precursor source.


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> Face the facts.  The quality of the MDMA experience depends on the precursor source.



There is no scientific evidence or theory to support that assertion.

Zero

Zip 

Nada

MDP2P is MDP2P (fyi: PMK = MDP2P = piperonal methyl ketone = MD-phenyl-propanone)

*Regardless of Whether the Precursor to MDP2P is safrole, sassafras oil, piperonal, or PMK-glycidate  FYI: to get PMK-gly you have to add the glycidate to PMK (MDP2P)

PMK-gly is to MDMA-HCL as PMK/MDP2P is to the freebase of MDMA*


----------



## Dresden

Well then I guess this is your chance to invent a new chemical theory.


----------



## Brenner

shugenja said:


> Treat it as science, and start the process by attempting to falsify the initial hypothesis of pure r-isomer.
> 
> This could be done by extracting the MDMA -- testing for purity by melting point, and then using a polarimeter, Mosher's process, or some other low cost but scientifically effective process.
> 
> If we made the free base from the purified MDMA -- and then used r-tartaric acid (chiral) to precipitate MDMA-tartrate, if it was only 1 isomer it would all precipitate out, OR NONE WOULD -- if the free-base partially precipitated -- racemic
> 
> 
> The next steps could be done in any order.  Simply because GCMS says it's MDMA -- does not mean it actually IS MDMA.
> 
> Regardless of protestation to the contrary, skeletal, functional, and geometric isomers (that have many functional groups in common) can be very difficult to differentiate with standard GCMS.
> 
> 5-Methyl MDA and 6-Methyl MDA are both isomers (not stereo) of MDMA , as is 2,3 MDMA
> 
> The methyl MDA compounds have a profile of effect that is similar to what is reported.
> 
> Just because something is pressed the same -- does not mean it's the same batch.
> 
> 
> 
> Le Junk identified that the "mongy" MDMA made him cracked out and high for 2 days -- that is not what r-MDMA does, it has a very slight action (+1) even at 200 mg that is gone in 6 hours
> 
> 5-APB or 6-APB however, are 2 compounds that are remarkably identical to MDMA in effect  --_* some people say better *_a 200 mg dose of an APB would probably make you feel high for 2 days (75 mg can rock you for 12 hours)
> 
> the mongy effects sound alot like higher doses of 5-Methyl or 6-Methyl MDA -- wonder if they look like MDMA to a GCMS
> 
> They could be slightly different but in the sample noise



Interesting. So as someone who appears to know quite a lot about this are you going to try it out?


----------



## StoneHappyMonday

I'm still waiting for him to answer my questions in post 249, which are largely based around the paragraph where he uses red writing. But then having seen another post in another thread by him where he tries to use his 'pure science' to tell me I've been taking the wrong dose of MDMA for 15 years out of 27 years usage, I'm not holding my breath. 

His scientific theory may be great, I don't know, I don't have the knowledge to argue that, but his relations with the real world - the practical applications of his science? - are skewed to me and many others with long term experience of MDMA use.


----------



## Brenner

StoneHappyMonday said:


> I'm still waiting for him to answer my questions in post 249, which are largely based around the paragraph where he uses red writing. But then having seen another post in another thread by him where he tries to use his 'pure science' to tell me I've been taking the wrong dose of MDMA for 15 years out of 27 years usage, I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> His scientific theory may be great, I don't know, I don't have the knowledge to argue that, but his relations with the real world - the practical applications of his science? - are skewed to me and many others with long term experience of MDMA use.



To be honest bud I'm not fussed - whatever gets us to the bottom of the debate. Everywhere I look on the darknet its just dealers touting the usual dutch made MDMA, or even if they say its not dutch made when I read the reviews it sounds like it is based on the fact its only lasting 2 hours and needs a dose of 200mg etc. I wouldn't be surprised if most (if not all) of the darknet MDMA is all from the same dutch lab pumping it out, hence its really all the same - whatever the same is (isomer balance or synth route etc.)

Somewhere out there is a small lab that knows and has the capability to make this stuff properly as it was in the late 80s. Tracking them down via the internet is going to be nigh on impossible though - and for obvious reasons since they'd be rumbled by authorities if it were that easy. God knows what this new stuff is doing to us, all of the studies are probably based on administering pharma grade mdma....


----------



## shugenja

Brenner said:


> based on the fact its only lasting 2 hours and needs a dose of 200mg etc.



Even 200mg of r isomer barely gives a + 1.

Here in the US, except for le junk - things are fine 

if there is r isomer going around, it was made from r mda, or precipitated with a chiral acid (tartate). Not some fantastical synth.

Tartaric acid can be chiral.

More likely it is a structural isomer that's not in the database, -- or a different salt, mdma citrate, or bitartrate has much less mdma per mass than hcl

For example. Mdma bitartrate has 2 moles Tartaric acid to 1 mole mdma. Mdma only constitutes about 35% mass of the salt, so 200mg mdma bitartrate is 70 mg of mdma and 130 mg tartrate

Other salts have different absorption profiles


----------



## shugenja

StoneHappyMonday said:


> I'm still waiting for him to answer my questions in post 249, which are largely based around the paragraph where he uses red writing. But then having seen another post in another thread by him where he tries to use his 'pure science' to tell me I've been taking the wrong dose of MDMA for 15 years out of 27 years usage, I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> His scientific theory may be great, I don't know, I don't have the knowledge to argue that, but his relations with the real world - the practical applications of his science? - are skewed to me and many others with long term experience of MDMA use.




165 mg plus 100 mg top offs - rectally administered may be preferred by you -- but are not proper.

265 mg or 365 mg of plugged MDMA is overkill -- regardless of 27 years of use


----------



## shugenja

Brenner said:


> Interesting. So as someone who appears to know quite a lot about this are you going to try it out?




Why? I have not encountered the "mongy" MDMA.

Like I said before, people proffering a fantastical synthesis that magically creates mongy MDMA are the ones that must provide the proposed scientific process instead of WILD ASS GUESSES.


----------



## Dresden

2,3-MDMA and 5-methyl-MDA are wild ass guesses.  R-MDMA is an impropable one.

The new MDMA smells and tastes different than the old stuff.  That alone says a lot.


----------



## Dresden

It tastes a lot less bitter and is crunchy in my experience.


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> 2,3-MDMA and 5-methyl-MDA are wild ass guesses.  R-MDMA is an impropable one.
> 
> The new MDMA smells and tastes different than the old stuff.  That alone says a lot.



no 2,3 MDMA and 5-Methyl MDA are examples of known structural analogues -- with no monographs in the common GCMS database -- that have the same mass and functional groups of MDMA


different taste = different salt -- or different substance

I already posted regarding how bitartrate/tartrate  (35%/50%) will reduce the amount of MDMA per mg -- same thing with citrate

There is evidence that the citrate and (bi)tartrate salts are metabolized differently as well


much more likely that a different acid was used to precipitate the freebase than magical isomeric synthesis

if it tastes that much differently -- it follows it smells differently -- perhaps this is a way to avoid canines


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> It tastes a lot less bitter and is crunchy in my experience.




see posts regarding the citrate and (bi)tartrate salts

FYI - tartrate is 4+ times more massive than HCl per mole (bitartrate approaches 9)

citrate is a little more than 5 times as massive per mole


----------



## shugenja

StoneHappyMonday said:


> I am not a scientist and cannot and would not begin to question any chemistry knowledge you've laid out in this thread. The last few posts look like they may be moving in a particularly interesting direction with Le Junk offering to go further and wanting to know what to ask.
> 
> However. What I have quoted you saying here is, IMO, bunk. Define 'remarkably identical'. Because you must have a different definition to me. There is no way I could say those two quoted compounds are even anywhere close to 'remarkably identical' to MDMA. It is hyperbole like that which made vendors lots of money from selling inferior products. And there is no way apb products, dosed at even 200mg, make you "high for two days".
> 
> When you write stuff like that, stuff I certainly know about, I have to then reluctantly wonder about other stuff you write. Because what you've written in that quote is simply incorrect. And no, I'm not even doubting "some people" say 'better than MDMA'. But I learned discernment many years ago.




1. according to multiple experience reports on erowid and elsewhere -- the APBs are subjectively almost identical depending on dose and visuals - and not all users get the extra psychedelia 

the APBs are considered better for many that review them -- NOT ALL, but many

2. the APBs can have a profound psychedelic action in some users that  have been experienced for 12-14 hours plus at doses under 100 mg --


would an experienced user likely be fooled -- no

"mongy effects" -- easily


----------



## Dresden

The apb's are routinely tested for and show up on www.ecstasydata.org

I talked to someone today who used to press MDMA pills, and he averred the reason that the old pressed pills were so good was because that trace amounts of heroin were added.


----------



## Dresden

However, MDMA shows up in the test results of these new pressed pills.  The apb's have not yet, to my knowledge, shown up in that form.


----------



## Dresden

Edit:  one of them was in a pressed pill, but it was marked "not sold as ecstasy."


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> The apb's are routinely tested for and show up on www.ecstasydata.org
> 
> I talked to someone today who used to press MDMA pills, and he averred the reason that the old pressed pills were so good was because that trace amounts of heroin were added.



This was only in reference to untested pills -- and/or same logo but not same batch/chemist

Like I posted several days ago -- I was looking in the wrong place for the GCMS.

That said, GCMS uses a database -- if a substance has the same mass it can easily be conflated for MDMA -- unless it has a monograph in the database

My bet on the weak effects from 200 mg pills is a different salt -- 200 mg of the r-isomer doesn't even get to a + (meaning you can tell something sort of, but don't know what)

200 mg of MDMA bitartrate = ~75 mg MDMA

Heroin was NEVER added to MDMA pills -- nobody would waste the dope needed at a 35% MAX oral bioavailability  -- especially with dopesick junkies waiting in line to pay $$

He was full of shit -- "trace amounts" would be below the threshold of action, and depending on how nuch "trace" is you could OD snorting them

For example 20 mg of heroin per pill would not be felt orally (~7mg) -- but if you railed 2 of them -- (snorted) that 40 mg could make you OD (not die but seriously f-ed up) if you were not expecting it


----------



## Brenner

shugenja said:


> Why? I have not encountered the "mongy" MDMA.
> 
> Like I said before, people proffering a fantastical synthesis that magically creates mongy MDMA are the ones that must provide the proposed scientific process instead of WILD ASS GUESSES.



Really? So if you take a single dose of 100mg MDMA (tested) - how long do the effects last?


----------



## shugenja

Brenner said:


> Really? So if you take a single dose of 100mg MDMA (tested) - how long do the effects last?




complete return to baseline in about 7 hours


----------



## StoneHappyMonday

shugenja said:


> 165 mg plus 100 mg top offs - rectally administered may be preferred by you -- but are not proper.
> 
> 265 mg or 365 mg of plugged MDMA is overkill -- regardless of 27 years of use



You make no reference to time over which these doses are taken, making it seem like I suggest those doses in a very limited space of time. A) I don't B) This makes you look disingenuous, as are a few of your posts. Don't twist what I say, it doesn't endear me to you at all.



shugenja said:


> Why? I have not encountered the "mongy" MDMA.



Because you are the luckiest man in the world and have, at least, never encountered MDEA (posing as MDMA). Again, I think you are being disingenuous. I thought this thread was about attaining truth. Again, you do not impress.



shugenja said:


> 1. according to multiple experience reports on erowid and elsewhere -- the APBs are subjectively almost identical depending on dose and visuals - and not all users get the extra psychedelia
> 
> the APBs are considered better for many that review them -- NOT ALL, but many
> 
> 2. the APBs can have a profound psychedelic action in some users that  have been experienced for 12-14 hours plus at doses under 100 mg --



Just completely disagree with this post and my peer group goes wider, I believe, than what you are seeing on Erowid. I also know plenty of idiots who have had reports accepted by Erowid. Erowid is not God.



shugenja said:


> Heroin was NEVER added to MDMA pills -- nobody would waste the dope needed at a 35% MAX oral bioavailability  -- especially with dopesick junkies waiting in line to pay $$
> 
> He was full of shit -- "trace amounts" would be below the threshold of action, and depending on how nuch "trace" is you could OD snorting them
> 
> For example 20 mg of heroin per pill would not be felt orally (~7mg) -- but if you railed 2 of them -- (snorted) that 40 mg could make you OD (not die but seriously f-ed up) if you were not expecting it



And just to show you I'm not being contrary for the sake of it - everything you say here meets with what I know as the truth.


----------



## shugenja

StoneHappyMonday said:


> You make no reference to time over which these doses are taken, making it seem like I suggest those doses in a very limited space of time. A) I don't B) This makes you look disingenuous, as are a few of your posts. Don't twist what I say, it doesn't endear me to you at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Because you are the luckiest man in the world and have, at least, never encountered MDEA (posing as MDMA). Again, I think you are being disingenuous. I thought this thread was about attaining truth. Again, you do not impress.
> 
> 
> 
> Just completely disagree with this post and my peer group goes wider, I believe, than what you are seeing on Erowid. I also know plenty of idiots who have had reports accepted by Erowid. Erowid is not God.
> 
> 
> 
> And just to show you I'm not being contrary for the sake of it - everything you say here meets with what I know as the truth.




1. you said 165 mg plus 100 mg top offs -- not me -- 

2. I said I have not had any tested MDMA that was mongy

3. Agree to disagree -- experience is subjective

4. Noted 

FWIW -- If you care to;  read the thread I started about different salts of MDMA.  It is a much more likely explanation


----------



## StoneHappyMonday

shugenja said:


> 1. you said 165 mg plus 100 mg top offs -- not me --
> 
> 2. I said I have not had any tested MDMA that was mongy
> 
> 3. Agree to disagree -- experience is subjective
> 
> 4. Noted
> 
> FWIW -- If you care to;  read the thread I started about different salts of MDMA.  It is a much more likely explanation



1) Yes I said that. But I wasn't the one making it sound like those 'top-offs' (we say top-ups FWIW) were immediate, adding up to "365mg of MDMA is overkill"

2) *Why? I have not encountered the "mongy" MDMA.
*
That's a direct quote from post 262. You don't mention the word 'tested'.

3) Sure, agree to disagree. But if you believe every report you read on Erowid, its only you fooling yourself, don't come here quoting it as evidence.

4) Cool. And I'll try to read your thread. But any advanced chemistry is beyond me. 27 years experience isn't though.


----------



## shugenja

StoneHappyMonday said:


> 4) Cool. And I'll try to read your thread. But any advanced chemistry is beyond me. 27 years experience isn't though.




No advanced chemistry needed -- its about how a different salt attached to the MDMA (citrate instead of HCl for example) could cause the difference in effects -- and still be seen as MDMA (because it is)


----------



## Biscuit

> PMK-gly is to MDMA-HCL as PMK/MDP2P is to the freebase of MDMA


 This is not an appropriate analogy given that PMK-glycidate is a precursor to PMK but MDMA-HCl is not a precursor to anything (aside from having the most boss time, assuming of course, that you are lucky enough to get racemic MDMA-HCL and not some other isomeric combination); the HCl salt of MDMA is obviously produced from MDMA freebase at the very end of the process.  



> no 2,3 MDMA and 5-Methyl MDA are examples of known structural analogues -- with no monographs in the common GCMS database -- that have the same mass and functional groups of MDMA different taste = different salt -- or different substance


 The forensic government laboratories cannot afford to misidentify seized drugs in drug prosecutions; if this routinely occurred, it would bring the entire system into disrepute. The mass spectra of the chemicals you have mentioned would not be the same as the mass spectra for MDMA. If these chemicals were present in pills, then the laboratory would need to identify them precisely or, if they had no reference data for such novel compounds and couldn't identify them, then the substance would be reported as not containing ANY identifiable illicit or prohibited drug. They cannot just pretend it is MDMA, even though no one else is going to know any different.   

What you have stated also ignores the recent data that we have from various government agencies, such as the United Nations, Australian Crime Commission and the European Drug investigation agency (the name escapes me). The reports put out by these agencies have all identified PMK-glycidate as the most common MDXX precursor seized worldwide. What we would have to agree on is the MDMA analogues that you mentioned above are NOT being manufactured from PMK-glycidate. The very issue being debated is a common phenomenon reported by ecstasy users worldwide. It is no coincidence that the most prevalent MDMA precursor over the past several years also appears to be the source of the most prevalent problem/issue/complaint made by ecstasy users over the past several years. 

One needs to approach this issue like a circumstantial case in a criminal trial - you don't look at the evidence in a piecemeal fashion when attempting to find an answer to this problem, an answer which can only be determined through inferential reasoning; rather, you need to examine all of the available evidence (from all of the different sources) in its totality, before attempting to draw inferences or conclusions which might be capable of providing a reasonable and logical answer to this conundrum. 



> I already posted regarding how bitartrate/tartrate (35%/50 will reduce the amount of MDMA per mg -- same thing with citrate
> 
> There is evidence that the citrate and (bi)tartrate salts are metabolized differently as well


 Again, when looked at in isolation, this is an entirely reasonable theory which could account for potential differences in subjective effects and would certainly explain the sudden massive increase in the amount of "MDMA salt" being pumped into such pills. However, if this were the case then all of the discussion about these new "Super" or "Mega-Dosed" MDMA pills in the mainstream press, on user web sites such as this and in the many government reports, would be completely fallacious and utterly pointless. If the "mega" dose of "MDMA" in these mega dosed pills is simply the result of a comparatively heavy MDMA salt like MDMA-citrate or MDMA-tartrate being used, where the reported dose of a pill is in fact the total mass of the salt pressed into the pills, then such pills would in fact have an effective MDMA content which is relatively similar to the more traditionally dosed MDMA tablets made from the MDMA-HCl salt. 

After applying a modicum of common sense it's obvious that the above situation has not been happening. Therefore, the lab results for these mega dosed pills are either only reporting the quantity of MDMA freebase (with whatever corresponding inorganic anion making up the other half of the MDMA salt molecule not included) or the labs are in fact quoting the amount of "MDMA-HCL" in the tablets, because MDMA-HCl is basically all that there ever is. I have noted that the results from European labs seem to specify MDMA-HCl almost exclusively in pills containing MDMA. However, the Dancesafe results do not mention which type of MDMA salt it is at all. Australian Government laboratories appear to adopt the Dancesafe approach and therefore rarely mention what salt the relevant drug is present in, unless this is somehow relevant to the tests being carried out (which it rarely is).

As I have already explained in one of the other threads started by shugenja on this topic, I have personally read a report from an Australian government laboratory which confirmed that one of the better known mega dosed European pills from last year was found to contain ~ 210mg of MDMA at a purity of about 55% (so 45% of the pill was inactive binder/impurities from the reactions etc). The report did not mention which MDMA salt was found in the pill. The reason for reporting this pill in the first place was to highlight the discovery of an MDMA pill in the Australian market which contained 2-3 times the MDMA content as MDMA pills commonly found in this country. These highly trained analytical and forensic chemists, with immense experience in all types of illicit drug analysis, are hardly going to report such a discovery if the pill contained a "mega" dose of MDMA-citrate, which whilst interesting for its novelty factor, would not have a markedly stronger EFFECTIVE dose than the typical MDMA-HCl pill, and certainly wouldn't warrant the laboratory issuing a report highlighting obvious concerns about this pill's strength as opposed to its composition (which aside from its size and the effective dose of MDMA which it contained, was otherwise completely unremarkable).


----------



## shugenja

Biscuit said:


> This is not an appropriate analogy given that PMK-glycidate is a precursor to PMK but MDMA-HCl is not a precursor to anything (aside from having the most boss time, assuming of course, that you are lucky enough to get racemic MDMA-HCL and not some other isomeric combination); the HCl salt of MDMA is obviously produced from MDMA freebase at the very end of the process.



uhhh Wrongo!!!


PMK  is reacted with an acid (glycidic) to form PMK-glycidate

PMK is actually the precursor to PMK-glycidate

The fact the gylcidic acid group needs to be stripped off the ketone, doesn't really make it a precursor. --  (more correctly I think it should be an ester) of PMK


MDMA freebase is reacted with HCl to create MDMA-HCl


PMK+glycidic acid => PMK-gly + (strip the acid) => PMK

MDMA + HCl => MDMA-HCl + (strip the acid) => MDMA freebase

If you say PMK-gly is a precursor to PMK then MDMA-HCl is a precursor to MDMA freebase

Perhaps you didn't know that PMK-gly is simply the glycidate (ester) of PMK -- the same way MDMA-HCl is the hydrochloride salt of MDMA


----------



## Biscuit

> PMK is reacted with an acid (glycidic) to form PMK-glycidate
> 
> PMK is actually the precursor to PMK-glycidate


 Fair enough however this wasn't clear to me from what you were saying. I certainly won't argue with the chemistry above however I maintain it isn't the best analogy in the circumstances. Obviously, that is my opinion and you are free to disagree. Other BL's may have understood what you were saying, although I suspect most wouldn't have.


----------



## shugenja

Biscuit said:


> Fair enough however this wasn't clear to me from what you were saying. I certainly won't argue with the chemistry above however I maintain it isn't the best analogy in the circumstances. Obviously, that is my opinion and you are free to disagree. Other BL's may have understood what you were saying, although I suspect most wouldn't have.




SO if PMK is reacted with glycidic acid to form an ester -- then the glycidate (carboxylate) is removed -- How is the PMK * Any different than it was when it was initially used to create the PMK-gly * ??

Answer -- It isn't  --- it is chemically identical to PMK.

And you can't use PMK-gly in the reaction to create the MDMA freebase, it must be converted back to PMK. (which I believe is a pretty straightforward decarboxylation by aqueous acid hydrolysis)

It should be Darzens condensation that is used to create the glycidic ester of PMK (ketone)


----------



## Biscuit

> SO if PMK is reacted with glycidic acid to form an ester -- then the glycidate (carboxylate) is removed -- How is the PMK  Any different than it was when it was initially used to create the PMK-gly  ??


^ Which is why the analogy didn't make sense. 

Maybe it does go PMK --> PMK-gly --> PMK but from a synthesis perspective it definitely doesn't go MDMA freebase --> MDMA-HCl --> MDMA freebase. That was my point.

The rest of what you have said, most of which I don't disagree with and the rest of it I just don't think we can be definitively sure, has been discussed repeatedly earlier in this thread and in others.


----------



## Brenner

So we are still no closer by the sounds of things until someone dusts off their Chemistry set...


----------



## Kaden_Nite

OP claims to have been getting the exact same magical stuff since 1988 (Because, as he casually informs the internet, he knows the guy who makes it of course!). He can take 100-500mg of this magical 1988 MDMA and spend the night having empathogen-induced, out-of-this-world sex before being dropped off like a feather and drifting into a good night's sleep. He'll wake up the next day with an urge to chat and socialise and drive around listening to music and feeling the love before retiring for the evening by logging into Bluelight to complain about the quality of today's MDMA.

Makes perfect sense right? Of course it does!

All this talk of seretonin depletion? Rubbish! There's no loss of magic when the 1988 MDMA that your friend makes is fucking magic!
And what's with all the scientific mumbo-jumbo that this Shulgin character wrote about the prevalence of tiredness and lethargy the next day? I don't know what that guy was taking, but it sure wasn't Le Junk's 1988 magical MDMA - And don't even get me started on the lies and deceptive myths about 'comedowns' that were spread in those awful anti-drug propaganda movies of the 1990s like Human Traffic. 

Some more brilliant advice I've found in this thread is that if you were taking MDMA in the 90s, it was probably MDEA! You can tell the difference because MDEA is more 'speedy'.. and let's not forget that if your GCMS-tested batch of modern European MDMA doesen't smell like 'aniseed' then that's a surefire sign that there's something wrong with it.

Still have trouble accepting that there's something wrong with modern MDMA? Well, Le Junk -the guy with the magical 1988 MDMA- has undeniable proof sitting right in front of him! Not only that but they've been lab tested!.. According to Le Junk.. By the same lab that was wrong about everything else, according to Le Junk.. But not wrong about the magical stuff that he had tested.. Apparently.

...

How much more proof do you people need that it was so much better doing ecstasy back in the day before all of this 'lab testing' and 'information'? All these people with their understanding of chemistry and pharmacology and these 'internet websites' with their 'facts' and their 'data'... fucking everything up..


----------



## shugenja

Brenner said:


> So we are still no closer by the sounds of things until someone dusts off their Chemistry set...




No -- I think some people are closer -- because they realize that PMK-glycidate is not actually a precursor in the sense of safrole or isosafrole being a precursor.

PMK-glycidate is made from PMK (MDP2P) through a chemical process called Darzen's condensation -- creating the carboxylic ester of PMK.  (this is the complicated part)

Conversion *BACK* to PMK is easily accomplished by decarboxylation through hydrolysis in aqueous acid -- not complicated.

I've thrown out some theories (GCMS conflation and different salts) that could account for the reports

and they are almost as unlikely as the proposed fantasy. some crazy synth using PMK-glycidate (as if an actual synthesis that doesn't include conversion back to MDP2P as a first step from PMK-gly would work) -- 

200 mg of r-MDMA doesn't even get to a +1 (hydroxycut will give you a +1)

This meme of "different precursor = different MDMA" is just straight up BULLSHIT.


----------



## ferax

Personally I fully agree with Le Junk. 

I'm 46 and i've be doing MDMA since the mid 90s. My normal use was about 10-12 times a year until around 2010, 3-5 times a year after that.
We would take about 150mg of powder (or whatever amount was in a pill) and then we'd top-up by the same amount.

The effects and the next day where exactly as Le Junk describe it. You'd actually wake up the next day with a nice afterglow, perfect for going out in nature or chilling somewhere cosy. It was almost as good as the night before.
Yes, seretonin depletion does happen, but that was a lot more intense 2 days after and not an issue at all on the next day.

Last time i had that kind of MDMA was in 2008. 
Since then all my rolls are missing the fine sweat on the come up, the empathy and love, the touch feeling, the extreme music appreciation and the amazingly good sleep after. 
Don't get me wrong, it still feels nice or even really good sometimes, but its nothing like back then.  

Yes, it might be easy to write off my anecdote off as "an old man talking about the good old days" or that "i lost the magic", and unfortunately i don't have any powder or pills from 10 years ago to compare. And i understand chemistry well enough to know that MDMA is MDMA.

Still, all my friends share the same opinion and we all agree on when it was last time we had good MDMA.


Really interesting thread!


----------



## Dresden

shugena,

Discussing chemistry is verboten at bluelight, but if you're going to do it anyway, could you at least post structures?  The following link will help.

opsin.ch.cam.ac.uk

A picture is worth a thousand words.  But as far as a molecule kekule structure being the be all end all, I'd say that is bullshit, to borrow the term you used. 

Every batch of whatever drug  has its own distinct personality.  If this fact upsets your chemical worldview, then so be it.  No need to curse.  :/


----------



## shugenja

Dresden said:


> shugena,
> 
> Discussing chemistry is verboten at bluelight, but if you're going to do it anyway, could you at least post structures?  The following link will help.
> 
> opsin.ch.cam.ac.uk
> 
> A picture is worth a thousand words.  But as far as a molecule kekule structure being the be all end all, I'd say that is bullshit, to borrow the term you used.
> 
> Every batch of whatever drug  has its own distinct personality.  If this fact upsets your chemical worldview, then so be it.  No need to curse.  :/




Actually, there is no rule in this forum or the USER's Agreement that prohibits discussing chemistry.

There is an informal ban on posting complete synthesis steps, but referencing named chemical processes is not forbidden.


----------



## Biscuit

I've looked at my old "raver" day photos from the late 90s/early 2000s and everyone had the most incredible saucer sized pupils and ecstatic grins on their gobs. When you had a couple of decent pills, your jaw or lip would shake uncontrollably and there was a frequent need for lower back massages. Such effects were common to most people who consumed the drug, whether male or female, old or young, large or small; these physical effects are also far more consistent and objective than trying to gauge how euphoric and empathetic a particular pill might be on any given night.   

I was privy to lab test results of many of the pills which were around at this time, and believe me we consumed countless of them, and most of the pills which produced these effects were dosed at 90mg-120mg of MDMA - that is MDMA only or MDMA with caffeine; not MDEA, not MDMA with MDA, or anything else for that matter. 

The change to 200-250mg dosages of MDMA now being seen as routine, is a massive change. And despite this, many of these pills consistently fail to produce the same physical effects in people today when compared to those being clearly experienced by those in the old raver photos - "off chops" as opposed to "munted". And I am not talking about comparing the effects in people who have been at it for 15 years but people who are only just starting out. The pills I am talking about today are still good and still get people (especially new users) completely trashed, but there is something clearly not the same with certain pills. It is likewise accepted that there is of course many pills and many different supplies of MDMA crystal and powder which is as mind blowing as the drug has ever been, but this does seem to be in the minority.


----------



## BlueBull

I have been following this thread for a while now. Up until a year or two ago I was firmly in the 'MDMA is MDMA' camp and blamed my lacking experiences on tolerance, setting, novelty of the drug, etc. Reason being that I abused the hell out of this drug over the years

But in the past two years I've had two run-ins with two different pills that produced such a profoundly different effecst from what I was used to the past few years that I am now seriously unsure as to what to believe anymore. I experienced it myself and can't deny that it almost felt like a different drug altogether, the difference was HUGE, as I remember MDMA being 10 years ago. But rationality tells me there must be something else other than chemical differences that causes this. So I honestly don't know anymore  I do find this an extremely interesting discussion though, certainly because we seem to have a few members with enough knowledge of chemistry to form hypotheses


----------



## oldskoolroller

I started questioning mdma about 6 years ago . Something changed and I think the higher doses are proof of this . Why would criminals give us higher doses for a much cheaper price ?  

 I will continue to watch bluelight in hopes that mystery will be solved .


----------



## FluoTox

oldskoolroller said:


> Why would criminals give us higher doses for a much cheaper price ?



It is more available today than it ever was before -> more visible sellers -> lowering price due to competition -> making pills stronger because a lot of people think "more is better"


----------



## lifeisbeautiful

ferax said:


> Personally I fully agree with Le Junk.
> 
> I'm 46 and i've be doing MDMA since the mid 90s. My normal use was about 10-12 times a year until around 2010, 3-5 times a year after that.
> We would take about 150mg of powder (or whatever amount was in a pill) and then we'd top-up by the same amount.
> 
> The effects and the next day where exactly as Le Junk describe it. You'd actually wake up the next day with a nice afterglow, perfect for going out in nature or chilling somewhere cosy. It was almost as good as the night before.
> Yes, seretonin depletion does happen, but that was a lot more intense 2 days after and not an issue at all on the next day.
> 
> Last time i had that kind of MDMA was in 2008.
> Since then all my rolls are missing the fine sweat on the come up, the empathy and love, the touch feeling, the extreme music appreciation and the amazingly good sleep after.
> Don't get me wrong, it still feels nice or even really good sometimes, but its nothing like back then.
> 
> Yes, it might be easy to write off my anecdote off as "an old man talking about the good old days" or that "i lost the magic", and unfortunately i don't have any powder or pills from 10 years ago to compare. And i understand chemistry well enough to know that MDMA is MDMA.
> 
> Still, all my friends share the same opinion and we all agree on when it was last time we had good MDMA.
> 
> 
> Really interesting thread!



Very intersting thread and post. I´m also 46 and contrary to you, I´ve been doing MDMA since December 2014, so I´m a new user compared to you. I also take the same amount as you, 150/200 first dose and then 100 more an hour or so later. The first times I took the love feeling was much stronger than it is today. I don´t know if it´s tolerance and different MDMA I´m taking, but sure the first time the love and emphaty were much stronger than today. It still feels wonderful, music is still divine and general pleasure is amazing, but the love feeling is not the same anymore.

Ferax, during all those years taking MDMA, did you felt your health suffer from it, like lost memory or any kind of depression tendence growing up?


----------



## Biscuit

This report from a few months ago clearly and irrefutably, sums up the changes in the MDMA content of pills over the years:

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/2473/TD0116348ENN.pdf

Pages 5 to 8 inclusive are the relevant pages. The table on page 8 says it all. It is undeniable. The differences are massive. But the pills with so much more are definitely not better and most would say generally worse. Something is going on, no question, but I accept finding the reason or reasons for this are proving very difficult.


----------



## ferax

lifeisbeautiful said:


> Very intersting thread and post. I´m also 46 and contrary to you, I´ve been doing MDMA since December 2014, so I´m a new user compared to you. I also take the same amount as you, 150/200 first dose and then 100 more an hour or so later. The first times I took the love feeling was much stronger than it is today. I don´t know if it´s tolerance and different MDMA I´m taking, but sure the first time the love and emphaty were much stronger than today. It still feels wonderful, music is still divine and general pleasure is amazing, but the love feeling is not the same anymore.
> 
> Ferax, during all those years taking MDMA, did you felt your health suffer from it, like lost memory or any kind of depression tendence growing up?



I know that 10 or 12 times a year sounds a lot but its really not that many, especially if you take into account that most of them were during the summer at festivals and parties, in a very close succession. After September my use dropped a lot, perhaps 3-4 times until the next summer. 

That was 10 years ago. Today i'll do MDMA once or twice at the festival ( yeah, sadly its not festivals any more   )
Add the occasional home party with friends, plus a couple of nights just me and my gf and there you have 5 times year.

I don't really consider myself a heavy user of MDMA or any other substance, except maybe weed. 
Tolerance is never a problem except at the festivals which is to be expected. Even then its a much bigger issue with psychedelics than MDMA.

I've never had a health issue due to MDMA or any other substance as i try to moderate my use. I even survived legal mephedrone just fine 
My memory is not 100% what it used to be, but its not far off. I'd say its on a par with most people my age. And I've never suffered from depression or anything like that.


Obviously the first times you do MDMA are extraordinary and memorable! For most people its their best times ever.

For me that was not the case. 
During the early years you would drop a Cherry or a Dove or a Euro or a Mitsubishi and you were in for the time of you life! Then the pills got replaced by MDMA powder which was also amazing for a few years until 2008.
Since then we've been chasing the old MDMA but never found any. Which is really weird as today anyone can get top quality dutch powder and pills which should have been a lot better than the old ones, but actually feel like a totally different substance.


lifeisbeautiful, do you get a really fine sweat on the comeup that feels amazing when you take your shirt off? That was always the sign of a good roll and the one thing that i miss the most.

Perhaps later i will put together a list of MDMA effects that i miss the most, just to compare with the others here.


----------



## lifeisbeautiful

ferax said:


> I know that 10 or 12 times a year sounds a lot but its really not that many, especially if you take into account that most of them were during the summer at festivals and parties, in a very close succession. After September my use dropped a lot, perhaps 3-4 times until the next summer.
> 
> That was 10 years ago. Today i'll do MDMA once or twice at the festival ( yeah, sadly its not festivals any more   )
> Add the occasional home party with friends, plus a couple of nights just me and my gf and there you have 5 times year.
> 
> I don't really consider myself a heavy user of MDMA or any other substance, except maybe weed.
> Tolerance is never a problem except at the festivals which is to be expected. Even then its a much bigger issue with psychedelics than MDMA.
> 
> I've never had a health issue due to MDMA or any other substance as i try to moderate my use. I even survived legal mephedrone just fine
> My memory is not 100% what it used to be, but its not far off. I'd say its on a par with most people my age. And I've never suffered from depression or anything like that.
> 
> 
> Obviously the first times you do MDMA are extraordinary and memorable! For most people its their best times ever.
> 
> For me that was not the case.
> During the early years you would drop a Cherry or a Dove or a Euro or a Mitsubishi and you were in for the time of you life! Then the pills got replaced by MDMA powder which was also amazing for a few years until 2008.
> Since then we've been chasing the old MDMA but never found any. Which is really weird as today anyone can get top quality dutch powder and pills which should have been a lot better than the old ones, but actually feel like a totally different substance.
> 
> 
> lifeisbeautiful, do you get a really fine sweat on the comeup that feels amazing when you take your shirt off? That was always the sign of a good roll and the one thing that i miss the most.
> 
> Perhaps later i will put together a list of MDMA effects that i miss the most, just to compare with the others here.



Thanks for answering Ferax. Indeed you´re not a heavy user, actually you seem to be very responsable with use of this drug. In our age the maturity and resposability in life play a roll here, we just can´t loose our minds for this stuff. 

I´m missing the love feeling but I can´t tell if it´s from different MDMA (ever since 12/2014 I always took MDMA crystals) or tolerance building as I stated before. Contrary to you, I never had the chance to take MDMA from 2000/2008, but would love too in order to feel the difference you are stating.

Looking forward to read your post about the MD missing effects. Stay safe.


----------



## lifeisbeautiful

ferax said:


> lifeisbeautiful, do you get a really fine sweat on the comeup that feels amazing when you take your shirt off? That was always the sign of a good roll and the one thing that i miss the most.



Forgot to answer your question. Well, I don´t feel a sweat, on the come up I feel a wave of energy that makes me feel like I´m floating, this is something I always felt ever since the beginning.


----------



## Dresden

I think something is wrong with this  new way of making MDMA.  I don't know what or claim to know what or particularly care why either though.


----------



## Black

could it be that those people that don't think that mdma is mdma have gotten some tolerance due to other rc (mephedrone, methylone, ...) use? those substances were widely available and popular exactly at the time when you say that the mdma "changed"...


----------



## Dresden

Possibly.  I did my fair share of mephedrone and methylone, but the new pills are crunchier, less bitter, smell different, and react to testing kits slightly differently than the old ones did.  They don't dilate my pupils either. 

Out of all those observations, the  most damning are the less bitter taste ("if it's not bitter, don't bother") and the lack of mydriasis, I would say.

To be fair, they still pretty much react the same to the Marquis, are still slightly bitter (nowhere nearly as nasty tasting as they should be though) and give an amphetamine like feeling like MDMA should.

I would like to know what, if any, trace impurities may be present that didn't used to show up or the other way around.


----------



## Dresden

Tbh, at this point, I would say the clandestine chemists' (and our) time and resources would be better spent on mephedrone than this crap.


----------



## Mongy

there are many reasons why x could be different now than it used to be, i think a big reason it is different is the scene is so different nowadays people are jaded, theyve lost alot to the war on drugs (and to drugs in general, they can be both a tool and a weapon much like a hammer can be used to help build things or bash someones skull in..sorry graphic and dramatic i know), the cops are all over the scene and people are in it like mad crazy to make money due to the rise of the popularity of the substance so the manufacturing pool has been thinned down...when i was introduced to e it was said to be coke and heroin together in a pill, which is not true but thats not the point, the point is i was told that and didnt know better but i had to make the decision to take that first pill, which was a big decision i had to make....i find x allows me to be immersed in the art of the situation and if im in a place where people are expressing themselves in many differnent individual ways but at the same time also in unison(the love of dance, the love of music, the love of having a good time) then that(the party and the drug(s)) allows me to tap into it all and express myself has well......there are other more subtle effects to e that i believe are differnet for different people, like me for instance the next time i take x i want to do it with k again ( i only did this once before but man i wanna do it again) because i find on amphetamines  i can "act a fool" when im around people but the k brings me to a place where i can really sink deep into the immersion and see so much(to learn , to grow, and to appreciate) beyond the veil of ordinary life instead of just being preoccupied with one thing or another......


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Black- the beta-ketones never really took off in my area, but I did notice during the piperazine-era, methamphetamine use seemed to become more popular and I believe that can change the effect that MDMA has on people; raised tolerance & less stimulation. Not saying that is the reason that people are reacting so differently to MD, but yeah, as the above poster says, a lot has changed since the MDMdays..


----------



## Mongy

u know i would like to think every batch produced is like a snowflake, maybe in ways we cant really identify yet(other than experience ;-)) and maybe if a substance or a procedure is substituted in the synthesis that "snowflake" quality is removed?  maybe each one is always better to be different maybe even supposed to be different and  in a way no two are ever supposed to be alike? maybe thats where the magic went. but that also means the good stuff is still out there, somewhere, just waiting to be discovered, maybe thats part of  the magic  too, who knows?


----------



## shugenja

Mongy said:


> u know i would like to think every batch produced is like a snowflake, maybe in ways we cant really identify yet(other than experience ;-)) and maybe if a substance or a procedure is substituted in the synthesis that "snowflake" quality is removed?  maybe each one is always better to be different maybe even supposed to be different and  in a way no two are ever supposed to be alike? maybe thats where the magic went. but that also means the good stuff is still out there, somewhere, just waiting to be discovered, maybe thats part of  the magic  too, who knows?




Nice Fantasy.

Chemistry says otherwise.


----------



## Mongy

yeah im definitely not a chemist, so idk anything about that, im just a stoner with a very vivid imagination, and i find doldrum day to day existence just lends itself to daydreaming and i like to share my thoughts. Oh and i love x,....alot!


----------



## VaPPiano

Where i live they have really hi quality MDMA and have had this year (2016)
'Old fashion MOLLY


----------



## Brenner

VaPPiano said:


> Where i live they have really hi quality MDMA and have had this year (2016)
> 'Old fashion MOLLY



What's this "Old fashion Molly" then?


----------



## terarc

Again, just want to reiterate that we have no actual evidence that there is anything different about the MDMA now to MDMA 'back then'. Several chemist friends of mine don't seem to think there is much weight to any of the theories proposed here. It's much much more likely that people who were using MDMA two decades ago just don't get the same effects from the drug any more, plus the rose-tint effect of nostalgia for a time gone by. I've had experiences identical to what members of this thread call the 'good old' MDMA effects, and what would be the 'mongy new' MDMA effects, all from the same exact batch, which has been GC/MS tested. It's all down to set, setting, tolerance, and also whether or not what you have is actually MDMA, as I'm sure a majority of people here had neither their old 90's MDMA nor their recently produced MDMA analysed with GC/MS.


----------



## Black

terarc said:


> I've had experiences identical to what members of this thread call the 'good old' MDMA effects, and what would be the 'mongy new' MDMA effects, all from the same exact batch, which has been GC/MS tested. It's all down to set, setting, tolerance, and also whether or not what you have is actually MDMA



couldn't agree more. i'd add that the expectations you have about your upcoming mdma trip can influence the experience and sometimes even kill the magic outright.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

I disagree evidence is there. Biscuit keeps telling you and the market keeps telling you. It's just your chemical knowledge can only get so far before things don't compute and therefore you state impossible. 

The facts - Price of MD has dropped astronomically in the EU. Quantity per pill has increased. There are significant differences in reagent colours from known GC / MS tested batches and pills. There has been a very large rise in MD attributed overdoses. So people are taking more now? Of course they are because the effects are such that people are pushing things further - what used to be "enough" is now not enough. More is needed. 

It's been stated before and I keep saying it. We are not suggesting that ALL MDMA has changed, simply there are some batches and or pills which lean towards a very much egocentric experience compared to others (GCMS verified). 

I've personally experienced this on numerous occasions. I've taken one pill and had a very heavy peak, egocentric experience lasting just 3 hours, what I associate as a Mongy experience. 

Then straight after I've dropped another different pill to get all the experiences, rushes of energy, empathy love the feeling of absolute bliss, being in control and feeling at one with my fellow beings lasting around 5 hours from initial onset to baseline (albeit a tired and happy baseline). This I associate with good MD. same setting and theoretically I shouldn't have this massive seratonin Rush if the first pill (at high mg) had delivered. The first pill being a supposed super Dutch the second being of a smaller boutique local press. 

I've done multiple experiences reducing this same egocentric pill to try and find a lower "sweet spot" dose. Result just a reduction of the impact but not the overall effect profile. I also find that when I get an egocentric pill / powder it gives a very different next day effect with none of the afterglow I love from what I consider good MD. A lot of users may well like this feeling but for older users it just isn't what we look for. These types of pills and powder MD actually encourage stupid behaviour doses. Who wants a 3 hour experience when they want to dance the night away? It becomes very easy to get into 300 or even 500 mg territory which honestly is absolutely crazy if the MD were good. 

I've found that if a pill immediately flashes any other colour than a deep rich purple within 1 - 3 seconds of marquis it is likely to deliver egocentric at whatever dose you take. Straight to black without any purple tinge tends to be the most egocentric. 

There are very often huge differences on other reagents between MDMA verified by GC /MS. 

I have had friends do blind tests. Some new to MD or have had long breaks. 

Same result if they take the 120 mg of the Dutch super pill GCMS tested as only MD they get a very low key experience and egocentric. They take 150 mg and they get increased effect but egocentric and very little energy. Above 180 and it's feeling very edgy on the come up generally being sick, unable to maintain vision then a very short and egocentric peak with a shitty comedown. Take the boutique stuff and they have a fully rounded empathic experience lasting minimum 5 hours. Higher doses put them on their back but with a big grin then the dancing and hugs start after the peak subsides.

I gave up on MD and trying to work this out awhile ago. Its good to see that at least the chemistry side is progressing theories. One of mine last years was how do we know GCMS can verify MDMA against other drugs and is GCMS able to pick up other unknown active ingredients or even salts. The answer is no not standard GCMS methods. And again I'll say it - humans are programmed to find ways round problems and beat the system. Criminal operations that's their sole purpose and goal!! Wake up guys there are chemists out there light years ahead now of your understanding. Keep thinking!


----------



## Kaden_Nite

There's clearly some advanced quantum mechanical shit going on here. It goes deeper than any modern scientific knowledge can explain. I mean if someone can take two different pills and get two different effects, there's only one possible explanation and that is: Time tourists. I mean, let's face it, that is without a doubt what's going on here. Pills from the future. There's no money to be made from MDMA in the future, where people can just 3D print any molecule they want at home, so these crafty dealers -from the future of course- they fill their time machines with these fancy, odd-shaped pills that pass our mundane GCMS tests with flying colours despite being of sub-par quality, they come back to 2016 and make a fucking fortune. I mean, what other possible explanation could there be for someone looking at their photos from a Y2K party where everyone's pupils were like saucers, right, and then going out to a club in 2016 and seeing people who have less saucer-like eyes. I mean, as the poster above me clearly points out, he took a pill and then several hours later took another pill and was higher than he was off the first pill.

How do you explain that?

Another possible/likely explanation for this strange phenomena of people feeling more intoxicated after having more drugs: Parallel universes. No no, hear me out. Intergalactic drug dealers with technology that far surpasses our own are transcending the barriers between dimensions to bring cheap eccys in from other worlds where levo-MDMA is more common than beach sand is here. I mean, how else do you explain your $15 test kit telling you that your pills are pure MDMA even though they are clearly not as much fun as the ones you had at that warehouse party in 1998?

Wake up guys, there are chemists out there that are light years ahead now!


----------



## BlueBull

Kaden_Nite said:


> There's clearly some advanced quantum mechanical shit going on here. It goes deeper than any modern scientific knowledge can explain. I mean if someone can take two different pills and get two different effects, there's only one possible explanation and that is: Time tourists. I mean, let's face it, that is without a doubt what's going on here. Pills from the future. There's no money to be made from MDMA in the future, where people can just 3D print any molecule they want at home, so these crafty dealers -from the future of course- they fill their time machines with these fancy, odd-shaped pills that pass our mundane GCMS tests with flying colours despite being of sub-par quality, they come back to 2016 and make a fucking fortune. I mean, what other possible explanation could there be for someone looking at their photos from a Y2K party where everyone's pupils were like saucers, right, and then going out to a club in 2016 and seeing people who have less saucer-like eyes. I mean, as the poster above me clearly points out, he took a pill and then several hours later took another pill and was higher than he was off the first pill.
> 
> How do you explain that?
> 
> Another possible/likely explanation for this strange phenomena of people feeling more intoxicated after having more drugs: Parallel universes. No no, hear me out. Intergalactic drug dealers with technology that far surpasses our own are transcending the barriers between dimensions to bring cheap eccys in from other worlds where levo-MDMA is more common than beach sand is here. I mean, how else do you explain your $15 test kit telling you that your pills are pure MDMA even though they are clearly not as much fun as the ones you had at that warehouse party in 1998?
> 
> Wake up guys, there are chemists out there that are light years ahead now!


I'll have what you're having


----------



## shugenja

Kaden_Nite said:


> I mean, as the poster above me clearly points out, he took a pill and then several hours later took another pill and was higher than he was off the first pill.
> 
> How do you explain that?
> 
> I mean, how else do you explain your $15 test kit telling you that your pills are pure MDMA even though they are clearly not as much fun as the ones you had at that warehouse party in 1998?



1. Unless you scrape off a piece of the exact pill you are going to take, you can't be sure based on GCMS of a pill that looks the same.

Hell, if I wanted to make a shit ton of money, I would make a small number of the pressed logo with high dose, and send it in to be tested myself then press the rest of the batch of pills with a much lower dose.

2. Your $15 test kit can't tell you a pill is pure anything, all it can do is identify the presence of some things.  And marquis will return 
 the same response for all MDXX, as well as x-APBs.


----------



## Dresden

terarc said:


> I'm sure a majority of people here had neither their old 90's MDMA nor their recently produced MDMA analysed with GC/MS.



These new pills are being analyzed with gc/ms and are coming up as mdma.  The old pills probably would too but since that was almost 20 years ago it's a dicey thing to test for now.    

My guess is tolerance.  Except, question,  do the new pills dilate new users' eyes maximally at 120mg?  If not, then something is surely rotten in the state of current mdma.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Shugenja: Copycat batches, APBs & pills that can trick cheap, home reagent tests? That's a pretty far-out hypothesis man..


----------



## shugenja

Kaden_Nite said:


> Shugenja: Copycat batches, APBs & pills that can trick cheap, home reagent tests? That's a pretty far-out hypothesis man..




Yeah man ... I know,  I mean it's almost a certainty the issue is time traveling chemists  8(, but I thought I might stir the pot just a little bit.  :D


----------



## Kaden_Nite

The APBs & MDA (not that there's anything wrong with MDA) are quite common at the moment though and as stated, they can pass the home reagent tests so yeah, there's that. MAPB is supposed to be pretty awesome though and although I've been off empathogens for a while, I wouldn't mind giving it a go.

Seems everything's got the potential to be adulterated at the moment- Fentanyl analogues in heroin, cattle wormer in coke (who knows why), NBOMEs on tabs.. I guess if some slightly 'mongy' pills are the worst thing to happen to you, consider yourself lucky. :D


----------



## Brenner

Check this out on Pill Reports! :



> July 11, 2016-UK - BBC looking to interview MDMA user for documentary
> 
> Posted by johnboy @ 2:56 am GMT
> 
> The BBC is looking to speak to a long- time user of MDMA. We're doing a film on the reported 'higher purity' available in the UK, and the risk it poses to young, inexperienced users. How they get hold of it, what it does, and why it's different to what was previously around.
> 
> The idea is to meet someone who can basically explain what MDMA is, what forms it comes in, and what has happened to the market over the last few years.
> 
> We are looking for someone in the uk, preferably in the south of England but we can travel.
> 
> 
> This is for a short BBC news documentary
> 
> If you'd like more information, please email me at James.longman@bbc.co.uk


----------



## Black

things like "straight to black" marquis test results and more egocentric, more mongy experiences is exactly what you'd expect when you got pills that contain huge doses. if you have ever tested pure mdma with marquis you know that the colours depend on the concentration as well as that everything between purple and black is possible; and if you've ever taken a too large dose of mdma 10 years ago you know that you'll be perfectly content sitting confusedly on a couch and will not be the social butterfly who'll dance and talk all night when you overshoot your dosage.

that people take absurd amounts proves nothing. they've always done that. before i ever took any party drug i knew people who'd do upwards of 10 pills every weekend. also internet forums (especially those not so focused on harm reduction) were full of people taking such high doses.

no pupil dilation or getting good effects from another batch are strange, but only anecdotes of uncertain validity and reproducibility. there's a reason that the requirements for clinical studies (at least for those ranked highly on the levels of evidence scale) are as rigorous as they are. i'll need much better data until i'll start questioning common chemistry knowledge.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

Black said:


> things like "straight to black" marquis test results and more egocentric, more mongy experiences is exactly what you'd expect when you got pills that contain huge doses. if you have ever tested pure mdma with marquis you know that the colours depend on the concentration as well as that everything between purple and black is possible; and if you've ever taken a too large dose of mdma 10 years ago you know that you'll be perfectly content sitting confusedly on a couch and will not be the social butterfly who'll dance and talk all night when you overshoot your dosage.
> 
> that people take absurd amounts proves nothing. they've always done that. before i ever took any party drug i knew people who'd do upwards of 10 pills every weekend. also internet forums (especially those not so focused on harm reduction) were full of people taking such high doses.
> 
> no pupil dilation or getting good effects from another batch are strange, but only anecdotes of uncertain validity and reproducibility. there's a reason that the requirements for clinical studies (at least for those ranked highly on the levels of evidence scale) are as rigorous as they are. i'll need much better data until i'll start questioning common chemistry knowledge.



Very valid but lost a little re black being high dose? 

When reagent testing a pill or powder usually you can't maintain the amount exactly. In addition the standard binder levels of a pill usually run around approx 40 - 90 %? 

So why do some pills irrelevant of the sample size never flash purple and go straight black, whereas some do and even stay purple? Theoretically if I take a smaller sample of the black and tested it should go purple because the dose isn't so high? Or if I take a larger sample of the purple it should then go black?

I get that its distribution based binder to pill but irrelevant you put more in to the marquis the dose increase the colour SHOULD change by your theory. I've actually tested all this out and I can tell you a black result never is anything but black, irrelevant of sample size and a purple likewise, although purple Colouration can be lost to the eye due to depth of the Marquis, a simple tilt to thin it down and you see it is actually purple. 

If you think about it what you say counteracts. You are actually stating that there are differences in MDMA, you see black test as a high dose or an MDMA with a Specific effects profile - you are actually aware of what is going on but you haven't yet realised this could denote different product types, maybe because chemistry is trying to tell you it doesn't compute. 

Again I've tested the theory high dose black by as stated taking varying amounts and seeing what happens, this was done for pills and powders. IE take a known GCMS tested pill with MDMA quantity listed. Crush up weigh out to the ratio ingest and observe.


----------



## Itsgoneundertheboa

shugenja said:


> 1. Unless you scrape off a piece of the exact pill you are going to take, you can't be sure based on GCMS of a pill that looks the same.
> 
> Hell, if I wanted to make a shit ton of money, I would make a small number of the pressed logo with high dose, and send it in to be tested myself then press the rest of the batch of pills with a much lower dose.
> 
> 2. Your $15 test kit can't tell you a pill is pure anything, all it can do is identify the presence of some things.  And marquis will return
> the same response for all MDXX, as well as x-APBs.



You can actually know that your pill is the same as one you send for GCMS. Simple. 

Take all pills you have crush incorporate. 

Send off some of the powder to GCMS bingo you have combined result of all the pills you have of that press. 

It doesn't give you a net per pill but usually the super pills are well publicised as to range of MD. I would only ever source a known, new press anyway as it takes some guess work out and gives a much safer and aware starting point.

Also I find that by crushing pills and referencing to dose etc. It's a much better way of controlling the dose to get a theoretical sweet spot rather than trusting the presser they made a dose that suits you. Often I see people taking a high dose pill at 200 + mg by halves wonder why it's not very strong and then drop the other half to put themselves in a very different place. 

Crushing anyway also increases effectiveness and onset. I've had some enteric coated pills which take an hour and a half to come on. Presumably because of the hard pack of the pressing and enteric coat. Crush said pill and onset is 30 - 45 minutes.


----------



## terarc

With regards to pupil size I'm pretty sure as you use MDMA more your pupils will become less dilated. Again, I've always, bar one, used the same batch which at first would have my pupils like saucers but when using more frequently would not even dilate that much


----------



## Black

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> Theoretically if I take a smaller sample of the black and tested it should go purple because the dose isn't so high? Or if I take a larger sample of the purple it should then go black?



that's exactly what i ment. any purple looks black if you take enough. when you tried taking less, did you only use less material or did you actually dilute your sample with some inert powder (lactose, talcum or whatever is a common filler)? if you did the former, then that could influence the colour you see (local higher concentrations or something...), but if you did the latter, then it should be identical to mdma from 10 years ago and the only possibility i see is that your pills/mdma have a different chemical composition, likely to the point of not being mdma at all. this would definitely go beyond a different enantiomer ratio (enantiomers react identically to marquis reagent) and would pretty much certainly be detected by gc/ms (or hplc/ms).
if what you're saying is indeed true, i now understand the reason why shugenja made those threads about 5-methyl-mda/... even if i come to the conclusion that the positional isomers would be distinguished easily by those running the analytics.


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## Itsgoneundertheboa

Black said:


> that's exactly what i meant. any purple looks black if you take enough. when you tried taking less, did you only use less material or did you actually dilute your sample with some inert powder (lactose, talcum or whatever is a common filler)? if you did the former, then that could influence the colour you see (local higher concentrations or something...), but if you did the latter, then it should be identical to mdma from 10 years ago and the only possibility i see is that your pills/mdma have a different chemical composition, likely to the point of not being mdma at all. this would definitely go beyond a different enantiomer ratio (enantiomers react identically to marquis reagent) and would pretty much certainly be detected by gc/ms (or hplc/ms).
> if what you're saying is indeed true, i now understand the reason why shugenja made those threads about 5-methyl-mda/... even if i come to the conclusion that the positional isomers would be distinguished easily by those running the analytics.



The information was there in the post Black. 

But I will embellish and state again; 

I have indeed done experiments with sample sizes and reagent. I actually used analytical scales calibrated and accurate to 0.1 mg. purple stays purple black stays black. No matter how much or little you change the variants. I've been saying this for quite some time. Why does a GCMS tested sample MDMA differ on reagent tests. Is it the inert or none active filler / binder or does it signify there is actually a difference in MDMA. 

You youself state black means high dose. 

No it doesn't if the sample size varies and it remains black.

All samples ingested of straight to black have delivered an egocentric effects profile at whatever dose above threshold. 

Try it if you get a straight to black. 

See if you can actually get a purple by sample reduction or marquis increase. Look for the initial reaction and time as this is the key. 

Some will go black eventually after say 5 seconds but the important part is the first flash of colour. 

Marquis however must be fresh. If it has begun to age darken then results can vary on timing and coloration, I believe due to its reactivity and age darkening due to atmospheric exposure. I should also point out that I have run Marquis from 3 different suppliers at the same time, fresh in shelf life etc. All gave same result for same sample and quantity, I thought maybe some marquis formulas do differ enough to give variation on colour and result - appears not the case. 

But the question I've always had and keep looking for answers, let's forget for now effects profile I get all that set setting; What I want to know is why when these wonderful test centres say MDMA when we get such variance in Marquis results?? It should be a constant? 

Interestingly if you look for example at Estacy test org. They went through a long period of saying black. Now they do say purple and they do tend to run marquis on a large and small drop basis. However I have grave concerns over their actual ability on the marquis 

Check this one and tell me if you would call that purple!! 

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=4518&mobile=1

Or perhaps you want to go down the rabbit hole further 

http://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=4500&mobile=1

Wtf and it tested MDMA 1. Pigments used interfering with Marquis - maybe! 

They run very regular tests and you can see clearly the huge variation in colours hues and results from samples they state as MDMA by GCMS. They do I believe run both reagent and GCMS for all samples pictured. 

There are also reports of a resurgence of home testing purple tests coming through when for most of last 2 years black was prevalent. 

But everyone here says no chance MDMA is the same? Really! Maybe yes it is by analytical methods we have and the data we can base our assumption on (OLD DATA points). The same ones someone would aim to replicate if they did have a new synth which delivers fantastic yields for a lot less money in a shorter time which may well have resulted in an MD light product which showed higher neurotoxicity and required higher doses in order to give the user a feeling on intoxication.

More evidence? Take a look at the prevalence of reported issues just on BL over the last 2 years, take a look at the massive increases in MDMA reported deaths globally.

EDIT - when I say MDMA I mean MDMA as in the toxicology results, not presumption by media.


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## Kaden_Nite

In response to Itsgoneundertheboa:

The prevalence of reported issues 
-The internet becoming more and more of a place for people to share their experiences with others. 
-The rise and fall and rise of MDMA's legitimacy and popularity
-The vastly increased range of other compounds being passed off as and used in conjunction with MDMA (I'm not talking about MDEA, MDA, MBDB, TMA. I'm talking ketones, piperazines, benzofurans, aminoindanes, pyros and other assorted untested shit)
-The reality that I was hearing about all of these effects 10 years ago. Ever hear of Terrible Tuesdays? It lasted a lot longer than Tuesday for some of us.

Massive increases in overdoses
-I actually couldn't find any hard statistics on this. In the US there were between 60 and 100 deaths in 2001. In the UK, it rose from 10 in 2010 when there was hardly any actual MDMA in the UK, to 50 in 2015, when the MDMA pills were stronger than ever. (If anyone can find more sources of statistics for other countries or timeframes or make any corrections to the ones I've posted, I will gladly edit my post accordingly. I'd especially like to see these toxicology reports, Itsgoneundertheboa). 

-The internet becoming more and more of a place to turn what was once a fun past-time into an international pissing match of who can spread the most misinformation about 'molly' and its' purported safety profile (not realising that their moonrocks were less pure than the crushed up pingers of my day. I actually read a discussion on Facebook -the comments section of a Vice article I believe- where people were comparing MDMA to LSD in terms of how 'basically impossible' it is to overdose. They were serious too. Their comments seemed to be typical of the attitudes resonating at the time "It'd take at least a gram" one says "HA! More like 1.5 or 2.. At least" the girl replies. When I tried to say something, I was told that I wasn't getting the 'real mandy'. I'd hate to see what shape those people are in now)

-The rise of MDMA pills' purity as of late would definitely take a few people by more than surprise..

-Again, the vastly increased range of other compounds at play. An ecstasy pill may be blamed, but who knows what else was being used?

-Despite the hugs and Disney eyes of my friends, I was scared to take my first pill because of the fear campaign. The fear campaign that I effectively disproved to myself, the one that taught me overnight to make up my own mind about drugs from that point on.

The difference between purple and black results from reagent tests
-This is actually an interesting one. I'd say inert impurities and contaminants or the reagent/sample ratio, but I'm sure someone with a few different samples, a bit of chemistry knowledge and a bit of time on their hands can figure it out.



Also levo-MDMA, 2,3-MDMA, MDMA citrate, Le Junk's 1988 magical MDMA, snowflake MDMA and future MDMA. All contributing factors.


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## Itsgoneundertheboa

Kaden_Nite said:


> In response to Itsgoneundertheboa:
> 
> The prevalence of reported issues
> -The internet becoming more and more of a place for people to share their experiences with others.
> -The rise and fall and rise of MDMA's legitimacy and popularity
> -The vastly increased range of other compounds being passed off as and used in conjunction with MDMA (I'm not talking about MDEA, MDA, MBDB, TMA. I'm talking ketones, piperazines, benzofurans, aminoindanes, pyros and other assorted untested shit)
> -The reality that I was hearing about all of these effects 10 years ago. Ever hear of Terrible Tuesdays? It lasted a lot longer than Tuesday for some of us.
> 
> Massive increases in overdoses
> -I actually couldn't find any hard statistics on this. In the US there were between 60 and 100 deaths in 2001. In the UK, it rose from 10 in 2010 when there was hardly any actual MDMA in the UK, to 50 in 2015, when the MDMA pills were stronger than ever. (If anyone can find more sources of statistics for other countries or timeframes or make any corrections to the ones I've posted, I will gladly edit my post accordingly. I'd especially like to see these toxicology reports, Itsgoneundertheboa).
> 
> -The internet becoming more and more of a place to turn what was once a fun past-time into an international pissing match of who can spread the most misinformation about 'molly' and its' purported safety profile (not realising that their moonrocks were less pure than the crushed up pingers of my day. I actually read a discussion on Facebook -the comments section of a Vice article I believe- where people were comparing MDMA to LSD in terms of how 'basically impossible' it is to overdose. They were serious too. Their comments seemed to be typical of the attitudes resonating at the time "It'd take at least a gram" one says "HA! More like 1.5 or 2.. At least" the girl replies. When I tried to say something, I was told that I wasn't getting the 'real mandy'. I'd hate to see what shape those people are in now)
> 
> -The rise of MDMA pills' purity as of late would definitely take a few people by more than surprise..
> 
> -Again, the vastly increased range of other compounds at play. An ecstasy pill may be blamed, but who knows what else was being used?
> 
> -Despite the hugs and Disney eyes of my friends, I was scared to take my first pill because of the fear campaign. The fear campaign that I effectively disproved to myself, the one that taught me overnight to make up my own mind about drugs from that point on.
> 
> The difference between purple and black results from reagent tests
> -This is actually an interesting one. I'd say inert impurities and contaminants or the reagent/sample ratio, but I'm sure someone with a few different samples, a bit of chemistry knowledge and a bit of time on their hands can figure it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Also levo-MDMA, 2,3-MDMA, MDMA citrate, Le Junk's 1988 magical MDMA, snowflake MDMA and future MDMA. All contributing factors.



You can find those statistics in the report Biscuit has drawn everyone's attention to for some time now. Agreed could be linked to increase populace usage, availablity etc. 

I'm not going to post the link again as it would be of disrespect to biscuit to think that he has spent the effort and time and it's passed everyone by..........

To be clear I follow my own hypothesis as its my own experience. I'm certainly not trying to dick size or create any form of "you shouldn't take MDMA" . It's one of the most beneficial drugs I have taken. 

however I do believe that current analytical methods are way off in order to determine with any kind of accuracy what we find in our pills and powders. I see finger in the air comparisons based on prior analysis and chemistry, chemistry a science which changes daily as we understand more about the world around us. 

The worst chemist is the one who believes there are no variables and everything is known.

I dropped my first pill in 1988. Agreed God knows what it was but it was amazing, I dropped for the last nearly 30 years experiences, I have had extended breaks but when I do return to MDMA the majority continue to be amazing. Throughout the whole experience yes bar the drought of 2009. 

Today well I want to know more and seek answers - By use of reagent testing I have found that the quality and consistently of what I'm being told is MDMA by the seller can be Corroborated, to some degree and has made the experience safer. But it is in no way fail safe. 

What I do experience now is a chalk and cheese scenario. As Le junk attested to on stating this and as others also attest. 

I'm just trying to work out why with the limited resources I have to hand. I try to identify the product, whatever it maybe that gives me the best experience with the least impact on my health. 

I have on a number of occasions seen tradgey, the prevalence increasing dramatically over the last 2 years even though my activity going to such events reduced. Am I looking for it? possibly, but in all the years 88 to 95 there was not one death at any event i attended, some in the region of 80,000 plus attendees.  

Events now are a chemical soup I accept that times are a changing. But really all I want is to be able to identify a sample of what I want rather than waste my limited times going out having a Meh experience on supposed tested and certified MDMA, hopefully in the process give some HR to others in describing my methods and if (which I seriously doubt but live in hope) there is a way to determine type of sample based on reagent test, which remains the only fast predictive test we have available.


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## pokepoke420

I haven't really read anything but the first page but I have to add my 2 cents. I stopped consuming MDMA because it didn't affect me the way I had grown accustomed to. Perhaps it was from over-using it, but I just remember that Pokeballs back in the day just hit me the right way. I could take half the dose of pills I took now and have that lovey empathetic feeling. The euro pills that have flooded the scene now are all high doses of MDMA, but give me this shitty introverted feeling that OP was talking about. I don't have any connection to anyone, but I just feel fucked up for hours and weeks of recovery. It just wasn't worth it. I went a year without consuming, and  I tried again with the same results. Like I said, maybe it was from all I consumed back in the day affecting me now, but MDMA just doesn't seem to be the same. Maybe it lost its novelty, maybe the theories are right. We'll never know!


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## shugenja

Itsgoneundertheboa said:


> The worst chemist is the one who believes there are no variables and everything is known.




No, the worst chemist is one that would argue something is wrong with Pure H2O hydrolyzed from hydrogen and oxygen because it tasted different to someone (or didn't slake their thirst) than Pure H20 created by spring water filtered through charcoal, and multiple passes of reverse osmosis and steam distillation.

After all, the precursor was different -- LOLZ


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## Dresden

Maybe it's not the precursors.  It could be the synthetic route.  Even then, think of alcohol.  The active ingredient is always CH3CH2OH, but no one can deny taking a drink of beer produces different subjective user effects than a shot of whiskey or a glass of wine.  Even the packaging and labeling or in the case of pills, the color and imprint impact the end user's experience.  It's the same with MDMA.  Saying otherwise is laughable.


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## shugenja

Dresden said:


> Maybe it's not the precursors.  It could be the synthetic route.  Even then, think of alcohol.  The active ingredient is always CH3CH2OH, but no one can deny taking a drink of beer produces different subjective user effects than a shot of whiskey or a glass of wine.  Even the packaging and labeling or in the case of pills, the color and imprint impact the end user's experience.  It's the same with MDMA.  Saying otherwise is laughable.



Your attempt at analogy is laughable.

Beer, wine, and liquor have subjective effects due to concentration of alcohol and dose ( a shot = 12 oz 5% beer -- pound a beer and it is about the same as a 1.5 ounce shot of 80 proof liquor) -- it is absorbed faster when the concentration is higher, as well as the effect of carbonation.

Let a high gravity beer at 12% get flat -- the buzz will be the same as a 12% wine


Regardless of the synthesis route-- if it is actually MDMA -- the only difference would be racemic mix -- and nobody can identify a synth that poisons the enantiomeric ratio toward the r-isomer.

You propose color and imprint -- yet colors and imprints have been around since pills of E were available.

MDMA is MDMA --- * there is a significant body of evidence that I have cited in this and other threads (Oxford journal, ACS, NIH) that illustrates the difficulty in resolving structural and positional isomers of MDMA *

If the effects are off -- it is dose, tolerance, or different substance related.

This is honestly a waste of time,


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## Black

well, in beer brewing, you use hops which leaves some (easily identified) compounds with sedative properties in the beer, explaining the difference in effects.


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## Dresden

If you think pill makers are pressing 2,3-MDMA, then that is also laughable.  

Good scientists have open minds and are open to what is, knowing that everything is possible.  You do not. 

If you don't know different batches of drugs have different subjective effects by now, then you know a lot less about drugs than you seem to think.  Molecular structure is but one variable out of many that affect a drug's high.


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## shugenja

Dresden said:


> If you think pill makers are pressing 2,3-MDMA, then that is also laughable.
> 
> Good scientists have open minds and are open to what is, knowing that everything is possible.  You do not.
> 
> If you don't know different batches of drugs have different subjective effects by now, then you know a lot less about drugs than you seem to think.  Molecular structure is but one variable out of many that affect a drug's high.




1. I already stated I don't think pill makers are pressing 2,3 MDMA -- just that it is more likelythan some BS fantastic synth.

2. No, everything is not possible; H2N will never be water

3. The only reason for subjective differences is psycho-active contaminants or dose -- you assert it is MDMA and only MDMA per GCMS -- therefore it is only dose -- or tolerance


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## shugenja

Black said:


> well, in beer brewing, you use hops which leaves some (easily identified) compounds with sedative properties in the beer, explaining the difference in effects.



 2-methyl-3-buten-2-ol may cause some sedative effects at the end of the night -- but it doesn't significantly change the subjective buzz -- the 7-8% alcohol in extremely hoppy IPAs is what does that.

and again -- that is a different compound from alcohol

according to the narrative --GCMS comes up clean -- only MDMA


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## Dresden

I said everything (as in everything that is observed) is possible, not anything is possible.


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## shugenja

Dresden said:


> I said everything (as in everything that is observed) is possible, not anything is possible.




Ok, then please identify when a reductive amination of MDP2P (PMK) with methylamine has ever resulted in the major reaction product being anything other than MDMA.  Hint -- you will never observe such a thing.

-- the GCMS and HPLC would see contaminants that were not removed by extraction and washing


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## Dresden

I guess I just have a partial permanent tolerance to MDMA now.


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## adder

> Also levo-MDMA, 2,3-MDMA, MDMA citrate, Le Junk's 1988 magical MDMA, snowflake MDMA and future MDMA. All contributing factors.



(R)-(-)-MDMA or (S)-(+)-MDMA synthesis requires approach that rises the cost of production and decreases overall yield (either isomer separation or an enantioselective reaction), it makes no sense at all. All standard synthetic pathways to MDMA produce a racemic mixture with deviations from the 50:50 ratio of enantiomers being of no significance.

2,3-MDMA synthesis requires different starting materials with probably much more lab work to be done as no direct intermediates are widely available. Also, the fact that 2,3-MDMA isn't an empathogen but rather a pure stimulant makes it highly unlikely that anyone would take extra effort to produce it and try to pass it as MDMA or ecstasy.

Different salts of MDMA should give the same qualitative effects when ingested, so MDMA citrate producing different effects to MDMA hydrochloride is a myth as well.

Custom nicknames like Le Junk's, Molly, Snowflake etc. have nothing to do with the structure of the compound and its effects, either it's MDMA or it is not. One of the basic chemical laws called the law of definite composition states any given compound contains its components in a fixed ratio regardless of the method of its preparation.

Why are all those myths still alive and repeated? No idea.


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## shugenja

adder said:


> (R)-(-)-MDMA or (S)-(+)-MDMA synthesis requires approach that rises the cost of production and decreases overall yield (either isomer separation or an enantioselective reaction), it makes no sense at all. All standard synthetic pathways to MDMA produce a racemic mixture with deviations from the 50:50 ratio of enantiomers being of no significance.
> 
> 2,3-MDMA synthesis requires different starting materials with probably much more lab work to be done as no direct intermediates are widely available. Also, the fact that 2,3-MDMA isn't an empathogen but rather a pure stimulant makes it highly unlikely that anyone would take extra effort to produce it and try to pass it as MDMA or ecstasy.
> 
> Different salts of MDMA should give the same qualitative effects when ingested, so MDMA citrate producing different effects to MDMA hydrochloride is a myth as well.
> 
> Custom nicknames like Le Junk's, Molly, Snowflake etc. have nothing to do with the structure of the compound and its effects, either it's MDMA or it is not. One of the basic chemical laws called the law of definite composition states any given compound contains its components in a fixed ratio regardless of the method of its preparation.
> 
> Why are all those myths still alive and repeated? No idea.




Because nobody wants to admit:

1. What they took wasn't MDMA
2. The dose was small
3. They have tolerance
4. Their other meds attenuate the roll


There are structural isomers of MDMA that are not in any GCMS database, elute at the same time out of the column, and have the same mass spectra -- I have posted actual papers (american chemical society) that describe such.

However, it is more likely that copycat batches are to blame.


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## Mongy

after a little research i've now come to the conclusion that this subject is alot more important AND controversial than i first thought, and as such, this will probably be one of my last replies on it...it seems that america was one of the first producers of sassafras essential oil, anyone interested should look up a publication called chemical age, they produced a paper about sass in 1921, and another publication, american druggist and pharmeceutical record also put something out related to the subject and it was from, like, 1896.  i believe that the majority of mdma has been produced in europe, more specifically holland but they have an abscence of a natural source of precoursors and have been dependent on the importation of said substances...it is a known fact that the powers that be have been clamping down on all the natural sources of sass and now the bulk of precoursours are coming out of china, and they have already clamped down on the production of research chemicals and i believe the natural course of things will be that they clamp down on the production of said subtances as well and when they due the face of ecstacy, its availability, and its production will be drastically changed....i will leave this thread with a couple final thoughts....one, in america drugs are easy to use, easy to buy, easy to sell, but they are not easy to make. Two,   i still have the gut feeling that if someone puts their heart and soul in an endeavor it will always show in the end result (one tree one batch now how does that sound for a signature series...personally, if i buy a rolex i want a rolex not a rollax) , one can only hope that someone, somewhere will be able to pick up the slack of these european manafactures and their ability to feed the appetite of all of us out here because mdma is a very special substance and it will always hold a very special place in my heart and it would be a shame to see it go the way of the dodo or become so hard to obtain that it becomes something that very, very few people are able to experience, it changed my life and hope it will always be here to change others as well.


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## shugenja

Mongy said:


> after a little research i've now come to the conclusion that this subject is alot more important AND controversial than i first thought, and as such, this will probably be one of my last replies on it...it seems that america was one of the first producers of sassafras essential oil, anyone interested should look up a publication called chemical age, they produced a paper about sass in 1921, and another publication, american druggist and pharmeceutical record also put something out related to the subject and it was from, like, 1896. i believe that the majority of mdma has been produced in europe, more specifically holland but they have an abscence of a natural source of precoursors and have been dependent on the importation of said substances...it is a known fact that the powers that be have been clamping down on all the natural sources of sass and now the bulk of precoursours are coming out of china,




Unfortunately you are ignorant of basic chemistry.  

Sassafrass is used to make safrole and then isosafrole; 

Isosafrole can be converted to piperonal or MDP2P -- which is chemically identical to PMK (want to know why? because PMK comes from piperonal)

Now MDP2P/PMK  is the basis for synthesis of MDA and MDMA.

I think the misconception that somehow MDP2P/PMK or piperonal(yes I know piperonal is not PMK) comes into play when you talk about artificial flavor -- like vanilla

Now, natural vanilla flavor has umpteen different trace compounds that give vanilla it's distinctive flavor --vanillin, acetaldehyde, acetic acid, furfural, hexanoic acid, 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde, eugenol, methyl cinnamate, and isobutyric acid to name a few (and you can actually make lots of fun things with them -- including piperonal from vanillin -- see how that works)

*yes you can actually use artificial vanilla as a starting point for MDA/MDMA synthesis*

But vanillin is the main one.  Guess what? vanillin from a vanillapod, and vanillin synthesized from lignin, eugenol, or guaiacol --* are chemically identical *

Which begs the question: If we want chemically pure drugs, why would we ever think sassafras as a precursor was somehow better than a purely synthesized chemical?? 

MDP2P from Isosafrole  and PMK (piperonal methyl ketone) from piperonal -- are chemically identical -- all those trace chemicals -- we don't want them and do our best to get rid of them

Furthermore to get PMK-glycidate, you have to create the glycidic ester by performing Darzens condensation on PMK (MDP2P)

To get MDP2P -- you perform decarboxylation and hydrolysis  -- and you end back up with PMK(MDP2P)

Regardless of whether you get to MDP2P(PMK) from sassafras oil, safrole, isosafrole, eugenol, vanillin, piperonal, or PMK-glycidate -- you end up at the same place MDP2P(PMK) that is chemically the same

*If you are doing good chemistry you have been filtering, washing, decanting, condensing, separating .... to get the most chemically pure reaction product

AT EVERY STEP OF YOUR SYNTHESIS

*One of the main reasons to do this is because secondary, tertiary, and quaternary reaction products can

a. ruin your synth
b. kill you or poison you (nobody wants mercury in their molly, but AL/HG amalgam is one of the main standards)
c. ruin your synth spectacularly (as in blow your ass up like a bottle shaking one pot meth head that forgot to burp the bottle)


drops the mic


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## G_Chem

*Picks up the mic* Ehemm.. Check. Check. Is this thing still on?




Well I keep saying I wouldn't come back to this site but I'll be damned you guys just have such lively discussions I couldn't help myself. This is a topic I've thought about tremendously simply out the fact that thats how I am, I absolutely love MDMA and this is just one of many that has caught my interest.


I have to start with that I agree with both sides lol. That is shugenja vs everyone else. I do believe there is something wrong with the way this dutch MDMA is being synthesized, but I don't believe it is an isomer issue. (It could be but the probability is more likely on what I'll soon describe.) I used to believe isomers were the reason MDA experiences and duration varied so much over the years but have since changed my mind on that as well. In this post I'll lay out my theories for why MDMA has changed over the years, including why the 90's MDMA was also different.


MDMA is MDMA. In a perfect world yes... But we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world where these drugs are highly regulated and synthesis by products and precursors not being properly cleaned out means more money. And in some cases a stronger product depending on the synthesis. Each route has unique set of by products synthesized that allow forensic chemists the ability to hone in on the synthetic route used.


Here is a reference that is actually found in the Erowid Rhodium Archive. It lists out the different by product contaminants for four of the more popular synthetic routes. To the mods, this is not synthesis talk but merely labeling the impurities which can be found. I will make sure to not get into direct synthesis talk.


-Impurities found in MDMA synthesized with the reductive amination-


-4-Methyl-1,2-(methylenedioxy)benzene
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)benzaldehyde, piperonal
-4-Allyl-1,2-(methylenedioxy)benzene, safrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propenylbenzene, isosafrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propylbenzene
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)benzyl-N-methylamine
-3,4-(Methylemedioxy)phenylpropanone
-1,2-(Dimethoxy)-4-propenylbenzene
-1,2-Methylenedioxy-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine, MDA
-1-(3,4-Methylenedioxy)phenylpropanol-2
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-(2-N-methyliminopropyl)benzene
-N-Methyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene,
3,4-(methylenedioxy)methylamphetamine, MDMA, Ecstasy
N,N-Dimethyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene


N-Ethyl,N-methyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene


-Impurities found in MDA synthesized with the Leuckart reaction-


-4-Allyl-1,2-(methylenedioxy)benzene, safrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propenylbenzene, isosafrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propylbenzene
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenylpropanone
-Isosafrole glycol
-N-Formyl MDA


-Di-[1-(3,4-methylenedioxy)phenyl-2-propyl]amine
-Di-[1-(3,4-methylenedioxy)phenyl-2-propyl]methylamine


-Impurities found in MDA synthesized with the nitropropene route-


-Hydroxyskatole
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)benzaldehyde, piperonal
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenylmethanol
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenylpropanone
-3,4-(Methylenedioxy)benzylmethylketoxime
-1-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenyl]-2-nitro-1-propene
-N-[β-(3,4-Methylenedioxy)phenylmethyl]-3,4-(methylenedioxy)benzaldimine
-N,N-Di-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenylmethyl]amine
-Di-[3,4-(methylenedioxy)phenylpropanone]
-N-(β-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)]phenylisopropyl)-3,4-(methylenedioxy)benzaldimine
-N-(β-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)]phenylisopropyl)-3,4-(methylenedioxy)benzylketimine


-Impurities found in MDA or MDMA synthesized with the bromopropane reaction-


-1,7,7-Trimethylbicyclo(2,2,1)heptan-2-one, Camphor
-4-Allyl-1,2-(methylenedioxy)benzene, safrole
-1,2-(Methylenedioxy)-4-propenylbenzene, isosafrole
-2-Methoxy-4-(2-propenyl)phenol, eugenol
-2-Methoxy-4-propenylphenol, isoeugenol
-4-Allyl-1,2-(dimethoxy)benzene
-1,2-(Dimethoxy)-4-propenylbenzene
-1-(3,4-Methylenedioxy)phenylpropanol-2
-N-Methyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene,
-3,4-(methylenedioxy)methylamphetamine, MDMA, Ecstasy
-N-Methyl-[1,2-(methylenedioxy)-4-(3-aminopropyl)]benzene
-1-(3,4-Methylenedioxy)phenyl-2-methoxypropane
-N-Methyl-1-[1-(hydroxy)-2-(methoxy)]-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene
-4-Allyl-1,2,3-trimethoxybenzene
-N-Methyl-1-[1,2-(dimethoxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)]benzene
-1-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)]-4-(2-bromopropyl)]benzene
-1-[3,4-(Methylenedioxy)]-4-(3-bromopropyl)]benzene
-2-Methoxy-4-(2-bromopropyl)phenol
-1,2-Dimethoxy-4-(2-bromopropyl)benzene
-1,2-Dimethoxy-4-(3-bromopropyl)benzene
-1,2,3-Trimethoxy-4-(2-bromopropyl)benzene


Reference:  Impurities in Illicit Drug Preparations: 3,4- Methylenedioxyamphetamine and 3,4- Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine.  A.M.A. Verweij, Forensic. Sci. Rev. 4,137-146 (1992)




The point of this was to show that each route produces impurities unique to itself.  And that isn't even all of them..  There is many variables above that could influence an experience if the product isn't as pure.  Now I know some people would say, "well how do we know if any of those are even active?" well many probably aren't but some are and some are probably synergistic or at least only active when mixed with other substances.  The next two references will detail a few known active impurities found.


The first is a study that looked at some of the impurities found in various synthetic routes for MDMA.  They really only talk about two substances though mostly as being comparable to MDMA in inhibiting reuptake (although they didn't test all impurities only 8.)  Of the eight they found two with reuptake inhibition in micromolar similar to MDMA.  These two synthesis byproducts were; 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine and  N-formyl-1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine.  I won't go into too much detail but will hit a few of the main points.  Essentially these two compounds are unique to the Leuckart reaction, and while they inhibit monoamine transporters they didn't release well (only the first did, weakly.)  They also found that these substances actually inhibited the MDMA of it's action when administered 4mins before the MDMA.


Reference:  Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters.  Christian Pifl, Gabor Nagy, Sandor Berenyi, Alexandra Kattinger, Harald Reighter, and Sandor Antus.  Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics July 2005.


This would prove here that it is possible for impurities to inhibit the action of MDMA.  Although the Leuckart is rarely, if ever, used for mass production of MDMA/MDA anymore.  But what's interesting is that it was the main synthetic route for the early 90's according to another study found in the Rhodium Archives.  Some would think, "how in the hell?"  A synthetic route that produces impurities which inhibit the the action of MDMA???  Used primarily during the early 90's?!?!?  Get the fuck out your prolly saying.


Well this study I'm about to reference also found two impurities in the Leuckart that may be highly active.  The first is n-formyl-MDMA and n-formyl-MDA respectively.  Now there is no real evidence that these two are active but if we look at the study above with the two synthesis byproducts that showed activity, the N-formyl of the first compound was active so it's possible that these compounds are active as well.  But these aren't probably the culprit to why MDMA in the 90's was so f'ing strong (seriously we are talking 60mg would supposedly have people rolling good for 4 hours).  This study also found DMMDA!


Now before I go on about DMMDA, I will say that this study also tested one sample of ecstasy to determine its route of synthesis and found the Leuckart was used.  So we can assume the Leuckart was at least a very popular route at that time.


On to DMMDA...  A highly active substance that was talked about in PIHKAL.  Dosage listed in the 30-75 mg range, which is about 2x more potent than MDMA.  While the PIHKAL reports don't sound promising, we see that at 75mg it was similar in potency to a decent hit of LSD at 75-100ug.  (We must remember that how everyone nowadays compares drugs to MDMA as a frame of reference, back then it was with LSD.)  Now while the reports in PIHKAL don't sound great there are other reports for other closely related compounds like DMMDA-2 which show MDMA-like effects at rather low doses.  With DMMDA as an impurity it is possible it could have synergized with the MDMA to make it more potent.


To be honest I'm still kinda unsure about what active impurity in Leuckart synth'ed MDMA was the one to make it so potent and long lasting back then, but what I do know is this..  The supposed quality dropping like the old timers say from the early 90's corresponds with people slowly switching over to the aluminum amalgam method.  A study which I will get later because I'm running out of time here shows that ecstasy tested in hong kong in the early 00's showed most of it was produced via Al amalgam with a few samples testing as Leuckart.


Now I'm not one of those people that thinks the MDMA of today is somehow inferior (except for the dutch product everyones complaining of, of course) because I have had experiences that honestly rival just about anyones, so I know the "magic" is out there and even on my 12th year of rolling this year I had an experience that made me question if losing the magic is even a real thing.  So powerful, so much love and empathy, so long lasting, and the next day was pure bliss (as usual though..)  But I do believe based on all the research I've done that the MDMA in the early 90's was definitely "different," the dosages in the pills just doesn't add up for the effects given.


I know this is super long, it's what I'm know for but this is all pretty important info to the topic/s at hand.


But just as the dosages of the MDMA in the pills then doesn't make sense, so does the dosages in these supposed "super dutch pills" don't make sense either.  I've honestly never seen someone have a roll I would consider "good" on these things and often people tell me they aren't feeling much even though the pill is tested in the high 100'smg.  Just doesn't make a lick of sense..  I've never taken them but have taken pure dutch MDMA before (I won't list my credentials here but where I'm from things are good here, most of the MDMA here is safrole made from Canada but of course with the advent of the dark web dutch MDMA is just a click away.  From what I've seen with the MDMA sourced dutch via darkweb as well as the dutch super presses, is exactly what others have seen..


It hits hard and quick, but is so stimmy and introverted.  Lacking the love and empathy that I've come to expect.  Someone may think they've lost the magic from shit like this yet so many people take it and think it's good simply cuz it reacts right.


Since you guys mentioned the "new stuff" tests instant black with almost a hint of brown, I decided to start testing as many samples I could.  I've tested over 10 so far and have seen somewhat of a correlation but my belief is that the marquis turning purple has to do with safrole contamination as others have suggested.  One sample looked exceedingly pure, one 150mg crystal literally looked like a tiny quartz with six flat sides that converged into a spike.  It tested as others have said (straight black no purple) and gave an alright experience but was definitely more introverted and for the first time ever, I only rolled for 3 hours!!  I've been rolling 4-5 times on average per year for the past 12 years and have never had a roll that short before or since.  100mg was strong but I felt like was kinda screwed over on my roll and didn't leave "satisfied."  When I roll I expect at least 4, but closer to 5-6 hours (including using a booster dose.)


But just because product tests purple doesn't mean it's good, many of the samples which tested purple were still rather impure.  I would say it just gives some idea as to the possible synthetic route used.  It could be synthesized from safrole but there are so many other variables that make or break the end product.


The smell thing though is something I've also noticed with alot of this dutch product, even when it has an amber color to the crystal and looks rather impure there is still no safrole smell..


What I can tell you guys to help you in your venture to find the product you all seek is this..  The best product I've had over the years is almost always like this.  It should look like near transparent crystals, with well defined edges and sides, but compared to the dutch crystal it has more "jagged" edges (hard to describe but something I can look and see now).  It should have seemingly no smell upon first whiff but if you take a crystal and crack it open with a razor you should get a faint quick smell of safrole.  This has been, hands down, the best product I've taken and I've come across it on many occasions.  It's obvious it's not all the same but again things are well here.


Not sure why the crystals look slightly different than the imported dutch product, but the smell seems to be a good indicator.  Essentially the slight smell indicates route of synthesis but you still want pure crystals, too much smell isn't good either.  While I find MDMA/MDA with a good amount of residuals oils is still decently active, it gives me side effects I don't get with the purest of crystals, mainly nausea, back/muscle aches, and occasional headaches.  Although I'm a hyper sensitive person who suffers these often sober, but it's the reason I search for the best on all occasions.


Hope this post helps someone.  Again mods at no point do I discuss how to make any drugs to any extent that would allow someone to make anything.  Please allow this to stay.


Funny how last time I was here I was arguing that 5-MAPB varies due to impurities (MUCH moreso than MDMA I might add) and now I'm here to talk about MDMA.


Love you all and hope that product you seek finds everyone deserving of it. Know that it is out there, and as you guys said once everyone catches on that these supposed "super dutch pills" aint so great then people will go back to the old ways of production that actually worked.  For those that have tried the Chi-town mints (back when they produced em) as well as the dutch super pills know what I'm talking about.


I'll prolly be back with more if people want.  I've only studied this drug for the past decade extensively, it's amazing how complex it is.  This is just the chemistry aspect, the pharmacological aspect is just as deep.


And a few more variables that come to mind...


Ammonium chloride impurity found in methylamine gives rise to MDA as an impurity.
Dimethylamine found in methylamine gives rise to MDDMA.
Nitroethane can be found as an impurity in nitromethane, making MDE as an impurity.
The list really goes on and on...


I'm done.


-GC


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## shugenja

@ G_Chem

Thanks for the tutorial (seriously not a flame).

However, until you can provide some evidence that there are levels of synthesis byproducts present in the pills today (peaks from the GCMS testing done by pill reports, will match the chromatogram from the referenced paper) * that are present in amounts that are psychoactive *, the effect of synth byproducts is in the noise. (for DMMDA to be active it would need to be present at 15% considering a 200 mg dose of MDMA -- which is ridiculous 5% contamination consisting of all contaminants in the aggregate is not unreasonable - but still unlikely)

I surmise, based simply on process mechanics, that the majority of the contaminants (by mass fraction) are unreacted safrole, isosafrole, piperonal, eugenol, PMK, etc. (which is borne out by empirical observation -- safrole, isosafrole, piperonal smell in some products)

It is much more likely, that differences in CYP450 metabolism just recently identified -- that are enantiomer specific (yeah who would have thunk that humans CYP would preferentially metabolize MDMA by isomer) coupled with the 200+ mg doses in some pills today, results in an enantiomeric excess during metabolism -- and different subjective effects.

*The role of human hepatic cytochrome P450 isozymes in the metabolism of racemic 3,4-methylenedioxy-methamphetamine and its enantiomers.*


"For the first time, marked enantioselectivity was observed for N-demethylation and demethylenation by CYP2C19 with a preference for the S-enantiomers. In addition, CYP2D6 showed preference for S-MDMA in the case of demethylenation"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18725511

which means that [in some people] there is a preference to convert s-MDMA to s-MDA by the liver -- resulting in an effective excess of un-metabolized r-MDMA, and an effective excess of s-MDA

and since we know for a FACT that people have different levels of activity WRT CYP enzyme activity -- normal polymorphism driven differences + RX driven impacts to CYP2C19 etc. (which wasn't even considered as related to MDMA by most people) result in what people call Mongy


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## G_Chem

I would say it could be lower than 15%.  I can feel as little as 5-10mg of MDA mixed in with some MDMA, and it seems possible DMMDA could potentially be more potent than MDA.  The study I ref'ed above tests only 8 potential impurities and found 2 of them were significantly psychoactive, it's very likely out of the 10's if not 100's of other possible impurities that one of them could be synergistic with MDMA/MDA or psychoactive on its own.


For the topic of 90's MDMA produced via Leuckart, the Leuckart is a dirty reaction that leaves alot of impurities.  It's yields aren't horrible but aren't great either.  I can't find the reference right now but one reference for PMA I believe shows 10-20% n-formyl-pma as an impurity.  Essentially there was alot of other compounds which could have altered it's effect.  Also taking a look at the lab testing of the pills from the mid 90's, there were "unidentified" compounds found in each sample which weren't pursued and assumed to just be synthesis by products or added during pressing.  These "unidentified" substances obviously did not have a lab standard for testing, so all the well known drugs can be ruled out, my guess is it was likely synthesis impurities.


And yup there are many studies which show the enatioselectivity of metabolism of these substances, that's the reason R-MDMA and S-MDA plasma (and other bodily fluids) levels are usually higher as well. One study of a death via motorcycle accident while high as a kite on MDMA showed very high levels of R-MDMA.  But I can't see how this has changed to make the experience so much different...   The way we metabolize MDMA has always been like this.  And the fact that different batches of lab tested MDMA have different effects (consistently, not just once in a while setting related stuff) points away from that as well..  (If what you pointed out was the culprit, these same people would likely feel the same effects for every MDxx product they tried and would never have enjoyed it in the first place.)



And there will be many of these impurities that you simply just can't "smell."  Having MDA, MDEA, MDDMA, PMA, PMMA, MMDA, DMMDA, n-formyl-MD(M)A, and others could not be "smelled" or observed without lab testing.  If the sassafras oil isn't distilled it's possible to have other substances go along for the ride, apiole and myristicin are two.  Likely the active impurities would need to be lab tested for.  But again I will agree that the precursors you listed would be the major impurities found in most batches.


It is one big mystery but my main point was that MDMA is not just MDMA in most cases.  Every batch can be different based on so many variables.  If there truly is a difference in the product and it likely isn't coming down to any environmental factors, then the most logical place to look would be impurities or some substance that is being missed during lab testing.  It isn't a perfect science (in all reality we as humans haven't been doing this chemistry thing that long, we are just scraping the surface with our knowledge on these things), labs can miss things.


The R-isomer theory doesn't make sense though, that I can agree on.  The R-isomer is longer lasting then the S-isomer and trippier as well.  People say they get monged out yet speedy (introverted in a way) with these new pills and they last alot shorter.  If anything I'd think the opposite is true and they are synthesizing pure S-MDMA, if we are to think the isomer theory is correct.  Pure S-MDMA would fit the profile much better, and as studies show the racemic is preferred.  What "preferred" means is up to debate but I'm assuming it could mean the "magic" we all seem to be talking about here.


That or the purity of this new stuff is "too pure."  Looking at the 90's product with its impurities, and how looking around chem forums producers talk about how customers sometimes prefer the more impure product, it's possible these impurities play a part in the "magic" we love.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, "the best stuff is brown or amber in color and has that sassy smell to it."  While I tend to disagree (to some extent, a little smell is ok, color is not) maybe these people are on to something.  I used to think it was just because it was an easy way to identify the material but who knows..

Btw Kaden Nite, I just wanted to say your posts made me laugh so f-in hard damn near cried, thank you for that 

All for now.  I'll be back.


-GC


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## terarc

I agree completely with shugenja.The only reasonable explanations for these differences are dose, tolerance, individual differences in metabolism, or the product not actually being MDMA. Just a highdea here but one other possible reason for this shift in effects and 'lack of empathy' could be due to a general shift in our collective psyche in recent years. Given our now extensive addiction to the internet and social media, we may be subconsciously losing some of our empathic capability. Differences in our individual psychologic states generally is also surely a huge factor; just because MDMA doesn't give full psychedelic 'visuals', it still undoubtedly has powerful psychedelic (that is, mind-manifesting) effects, more than many people seem to realise.


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## Le Junk

I'm certainly enjoying the chemistry aspect of this conversation.  There are obviously some very intelligent posters in this conversation.  Shugenja, are you coming around to the fact that there is something definitively wrong with this "new" MDMA?  I thought you and I had come to a perfect scenario where we could all finally agree todays stuff is awful.  Perhaps you just experienced on your own?  At it's most basic summarization, todays MDMA has little to no love or empathy and is extremely lethargic with an excessively long recovery period and absolutely no pleasant afterglow.  I hypothetically have 1 of these Dutch pills left.  I'm planning on sending it in to ecstasydata.org on Monday with the offer of paying whatever it takes for more extensive testing to get to the bottom of this.  Any final suggestions from either you or G_Chem on what I should be asking them to do?  Be precise as I'll just copy and paste your questions.

Le Junk


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## Le Junk

terarc said:


> I agree completely with shugenja.The only reasonable explanations for these differences are dose, tolerance, individual differences in metabolism, or the product not actually being MDMA. Just a highdea here but one other possible reason for this shift in effects and 'lack of empathy' could be due to a general shift in our collective psyche in recent years. Given our now extensive addiction to the internet and social media, we may be subconsciously losing some of our empathic capability. Differences in our individual psychologic states generally is also surely a huge factor; just because MDMA doesn't give full psychedelic 'visuals', it still undoubtedly has powerful psychedelic (that is, mind-manifesting) effects, more than many people seem to realise.



Not this again.  You keep forgetting that I have, and have always had since the late 80's, a bleach white crystalline MDMA powder that is everything MDMA is supposed to be.  Extreme love, empathy, horny, heaven-like, touchy feely, beautiful comeup and beautiful comedown.  Fall asleep like a little baby and wake up with a beautiful afterglow.  The buzz from this powder has been the same exact thing every single time since the 80's.  It doesn't matter if I had an awful day, the weather is terrible, just broke up with my girlfriend, whatever.  It's always the same thing every time.  No excuses or explanations needed.  The new Dutch pills, which I sent into ecstasydata for verification and came back as just MDMA, are no good.  The only variable here is that I've done the real thing.  If this new Dutch crap was the only thing I've ever done, I might say differently.  Over the years, I've taken a little of my powder, a lot of my powder and medium doses of my powder.  It's exceptional at all levels.  I've done the same with the Dutch pills and its anything but.  Sorry, but this new MDMA is junk.  End of story.


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## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> Shugenja, are you coming around to the fact that there is something definitively wrong with this "new" MDMA?
> 
> Le Junk



NO!

I have had several completely normal as expected experiences with MDMA, within the last year.

I have not had any mongy experience, period.

I have also been fortunate to be able to experience 5&6 apb, 5 is my new fave, honestly I think I enjoy it better than MDMA


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## Le Junk

shugenja said:


> NO!
> 
> I have had several completely normal as expected experiences with MDMA, within the last year.
> 
> I have not had any mongy experience, period.
> 
> I have also been fortunate to be able to experience 5&6 apb, 5 is my new fave, honestly I think I enjoy it better than MDMA



Ugh.  Apparently, you haven't had the pleasure of these Dutch "super pills" aka super junk.  I really wish you would have indulged me.  Moving forward, what do I request of ecstasydata?

Le Junk


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## oreohno

Le Junk: I completely know what you're talking about with everything. It's not the same as it used to be!


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## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> Ugh.  Apparently, you haven't had the pleasure of these Dutch "super pills" aka super junk.  I really wish you would have indulged me.  Moving forward, what do I request of ecstasydata?
> 
> Le Junk




Chromatographs


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## JBrandon

Le Junk, you can always link them to this thread. Will they read it, probably not, but about five years ago they got in touch with me about a sample of "2C-B-FLY" to ask for more information. Whether this will pique Earth or Fire's interest or not, who knows. 

You may also want to simultaneously submit a sample of each product you have - the Dutch and your bleach white, for a direct comparison. 

By the way - thank you for doing this. I appreciate the time and expense.


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## EnlightenedOne1

Once safrole became impossible to import in 2004, chemists have no choice but to use PMK-glycidate as the precursor...this is old news


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## Biscuit

Le Junk: 

(1) Ask them to provide a ratio of R isomer to S isomer. It should be 50:50 if Shugenja & Co. are correct. I suspect it will not be.

(2) Quantitative identification of all other substances detected in the samples, besides the expected MDMA - this will determine the type and levels of impurities and the route of manufacture. 

For me, the thing which cannot be ignored is the massive increase in the dosage of MDMA being put into the types of pills under consideration. This doesn't make sense unless something has changed. 

Over the weekend I and a number of well seasoned friends sampled two different types of MDMA at the same house party:

(1) Some rather devilish looking light purple coloured MDMA powder - this tested purple to black, was somewhat impure and had a fantastic euphoric and energetic high. 

(2) Half a red/pink Trojke - which was the one ecstasy data tested at ~ 230mg. Well the half I had was horrid - rolling sideways without love, munted without moving and devoid of any ability to get up and enjoy much of anything or anyone. it continued to suck the life out of me long after any of the mildly enjoyable but entirely stoning effects wore off.

From my observations, my experiences on each lot of MDMA seemed to mirror everyone else's. Those that had the pills (always done in halves) could barely move and one remained virtually comatosed on a bed for several hours, bug eyed and useless; whereas those that had the capped powder were having an absolute ball. So don't anyone tell me, after 17 years of MDMA consumption and I am sure more than 1000 pills/caps, that the chemical makeup of these two different samples of MDMA are the same. They weren't; they aren't; but who the fuck really knows why this is so.

Hopefully Le Junk can find out...


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## G_Chem

It can't come down to an "overall change of conciousness" or anything like that either if people are still get consistently good results off of certain products and not others.


And before I continue, I do agree when sourced right 5-MAPB is great too and rivals MDMA, but that's for another topic...


What we have to look at is this.  Well knowledged people who've been using MDMA without issue for years, and still can just fine, are finding certain products (particularly dutch "super" presses) to be devoid of the enjoyable effects they desire.  Certain things, for instance duration, which are consistent amongst different people, are great indicators that something is going on.


If it is an isomer issue, then again it may be that they are producing pure S-isomer.  The R-isomer is significantly longer lasting than the S-isomer, or racemic MDMA.  Having a shorter duration doesn't match the profile.  With that R-MDMA is somewhat psychedelic according to discrimination studies.  Pure S may be more in line with the effects described, shorter duration, stimmed to the point of being floored and just wanting to "ride it out," etc.  But since reports of people taking pure isomers is kinda rare we can't say for sure.


Biscuit, essentially the scenario you just described sounds like there was the dutch presses with it's supposed "very pure" mdma compared to an obviously very impure batch of mdma.  (A purple coloration is typically on the lesser pure side of things, not to say I haven't seen purple shards that weren't subjectively good.)  This scenario could prove two potential theories, 1.) That impure MDMA is somehow superior to ultra pure MDMA without residual oils. Or 2.)  Safrole produced MDMA is somehow superior to PMK-glycidate MDMA.  (Did the purple MDxx smell of sass?)


Please Le Junk do see if they can test for an excess of isomer in one direction or the other, this would at least settle that debate and can be done very easily.  You will be praised for you efforts no doubt 


After responding to this post I started thinking back to when these dutch presses started getting popular, as well as reading posts from back then.  I remember in the beginning people were amazed by them because they thought the dosages were so high they were just flooring people out and making them untalkative, but over time it's becoming obvious that's just the way these pills are.  Yes dosages of "properly synth'ed" MDMA (if that is the case..) which are too high can do that too, but typically it'll level out and people become more social whereas these are straight introversion through and through.


On top of that when a supposed "ultra pure pill" only lasts 3 hours (like 2 1/2hr peak), then something is terribly wrong.  Thankfully I've only had it happen to me one time because I've always been happy with the local produce, but I can tell you there is nothing worse then having a short unsatisfying roll.  Looking around too people are changing the whole way they dose these pills too.  People are going from dosing once or twice in a night to 3-5 times or more.  Taking more to try in vain to lengthen the roll, it's just a sad state we are in right now.


It's amazing we used to piss and moan about piped out pills, now we have the complete opposite problem that the MDMA is somehow off from what we truly want.


I'm about to roll here in just about week from now (last time late august) on some very pure safrole produced MDMA.  I've taken this stuff before with fabulous results but who knows, according to some people the "global stream of conciousness has changed" so much it might go from a 5-6hr roll of epic proportions to a 2 1/2hr introverted peak, I'll let you guys know 


-GC


----------



## shugenja

EnlightenedOne1 said:


> Once safrole became impossible to import in 2004, chemists have no choice but to use PMK-glycidate as the precursor...this is old news



This is not entirely accurate.

They could easily use eugenol or piperonal as precursor -- hell they could use vanillin 

https://www.amazon.com/Artificial-Vanilla-Vanillin-100-Pure/dp/B00A9WC9RQ

25 grams from AMAZON -- food grade -- for $11

Or you can get it for $10 a kilo from petrochem sources

based on the steps to get to MDP2P and published yields

vanillin to protocatechualdehyde - 93%

protocatechualdehyde to piperonal - 61%

piperonal to MDP2P 90-72% 

Low end = ( .93*.61*.72) = .40 -- so i rounded down to .3 based on a fudge factor for sloppy process

 -- that equates to ~300 grams of MDP2P per kilo of vanillin  -- or $35 per kilo from a food flavoring, not counting catalysts or reagents


----------



## shugenja

Le Junk said:


> Ugh.  Apparently, you haven't had the pleasure of these Dutch "super pills" aka super junk.  I really wish you would have indulged me.  Moving forward, what do I request of ecstasydata?
> 
> Le Junk




You may wish to inform them of you suspicions that it seems to not be MDMA -- and could be a structural or positional isomer.

I expect that is more likely, than an excess on one enantiomer vs another.

Again -- as I stated before -- no magical PMK-glycidate unknown enantomerically imbalanced synthesis is necessary.

There is a much more likely plausible and reasonable way to get isomerically pure MDMA.

If someone found [or made] a cache of R-MDA (which is the preferred isomer for MDA, was synthed in the past, and has a described published synthesis) -- then the MDMA synthesized from the MDA via the formyl - LAH method as described in PIHKAL would yield enantomerically pure R-MDMA.

(this is due to the fact that the base phenethylamine being enantomerically pure and is simply being alpha carbon-methylated, as opposed to the whole process of converting the ketone to the n-methylamphetamine)

Per PIHKAL the yield from MDA via the formyl LAH method is 73% 

MDA stored in vacuum sealed containers in the dark will last decades 
It is not unreasonable to assume that some MDA may have been cached and stored when it became less popular and MDMA exploded in the 80s and 90s.

Else,

its dose or an isomer


----------



## LucidSDreamr

shugenja said:


> You may wish to inform them of you suspicions that it seems to not be MDMA -- and could be a structural or positional isomer.
> 
> I expect that is more likely, than an excess on one enantiomer vs another.
> 
> Again -- as I stated before -- no magical PMK-glycidate unknown enantomerically imbalanced synthesis is necessary.
> 
> There is a much more likely plausible and reasonable way to get isomerically pure MDMA.
> 
> If someone found [or made] a cache of R-MDA (which is the preferred isomer for MDA, was synthed in the past, and has a described published synthesis) -- then the MDMA synthesized from the MDA via the formyl - LAH method as described in PIHKAL would yield enantomerically pure R-MDMA.
> 
> (this is due to the fact that the base phenethylamine being enantomerically pure and is simply being alpha carbon-methylated, as opposed to the whole process of converting the ketone to the n-methylamphetamine)
> 
> Per PIHKAL the yield from MDA via the formyl LAH method is 73%
> 
> MDA stored in vacuum sealed containers in the dark will last decades
> It is not unreasonable to assume that some MDA may have been cached and stored when it became less popular and MDMA exploded in the 80s and 90s.
> 
> Else,
> 
> its dose or an isomer



there is nothing magical about chiral impurities, carried into the final reductive amination process...being able to effect the ee of a reaction that would be otherwise producing a racemic product if those chiral impurities had not been there. It is a known phenomena 

things that are not highly likely but possible have been known to happen.

Any analytical chemist aware of this issue could figure it out in a matter of hours.

1) do chiral chromatography to rule out a non racemic product 
2) do MRM or daughter ion analysis to rule out positional isomers being present.


its not that hard at all. 

has this thread considered the possibility of different polymorphs being present?  would they be likely to have a qualitative effect on the experience? is there a good way to test this?

with respect to point 1), if they did cut the mdma with R-mdma that was left from the past as you suggest 1) wouldn't be able to tell the different if it was due to that or an R/S ratio other than 5050 being formed within the synth.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> there is nothing magical about chiral impurities, carried into the final reductive amination process...being able to effect the ee of a reaction that would be otherwise producing a racemic product if those chiral impurities had not been there.



There is no evidence of a reaction that produces an enantiomeric imbalance.

If you have evidence please provide it


----------



## LucidSDreamr

I'm talking about in general not with the mdma synthesis.   ...do you want me do go dig up information showing how chiral materials can effect the ee of a reaction?

I never said there is proof existing that this happens with mdma...just that its a possibility because its a known phenomana in other areas of synthesis


----------



## Biscuit

> Biscuit, essentially the scenario you just described sounds like there was the dutch presses with it's supposed "very pure" mdma compared to an obviously very impure batch of mdma. (A purple coloration is typically on the lesser pure side of things, not to say I haven't seen purple shards that weren't subjectively good.) This scenario could prove two potential theories, 1.) That impure MDMA is somehow superior to ultra pure MDMA without residual oils. Or 2.) Safrole produced MDMA is somehow superior to PMK-glycidate MDMA. (Did the purple MDxx smell of sass?)


 From memory it did smell of safrole but not strongly; I do agree that it looked particularly impure and at least 150mg was needed to really get going. Certainly, the smell was more noticeable than that of the pills. 

Otherwise, I agree with basically everything LucidSDreamr said. The answers to these critical questions which we continue to toss around and around and around are easily ascertainable by any analytical chemist with the appropriate equipment and know-how.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Below please find an attached Raman spectrograph of an MDMA sample from 1989.
Unfortunately, I did not illuminate the sample with optical polarizers, so the enantiomeric ratio cannot be read from it.


----------



## shugenja

LucidSDreamr said:


> with respect to point 1), if they did cut the mdma with R-mdma that was left from the past as you suggest 1) wouldn't be able to tell the different if it was due to that or an R/S ratio other than 5050 being formed within the synth.




If there was a published synthesis of MDMA that results in anything other than a 50/50 racemic mix (excluding the use of r-MDA as the base precursor) you would have a point.

Unfortunately, there is not.


----------



## G_Chem

LucidSDreamer,


I'm not trying to be a smartass by saying this, but out of real curiousity could you point in any direction to a known synthesis where chiral impurities form to sway the isomer ratio in one way or another (not for MDMA, just anything really..).  This would actually help your guys argument in my mind.


While I will stay open minded about the idea of isomers, I will continue to believe that it's impurities that play a role.  I've given enough examples to show that damn near each batch of MDMA can vary from the next based on slight variations in the synthetic process.  For now I'll sit back and see if anyone decides to be the hero and finally test the isomer theory..


But..  My last experience was with known safrole produced MDMA, very pure shard that was near 1g which was pretty much clear and upon cracking open the crystal a faint smell of safrole could be detected.  Marquis showed purple to near black (spreading the puddle showed purple again).  The roll was exactly as I would have hoped for and expected as usual, when it came on I was actually moaning at points and super chatty over every topic under the sun.  Lasted a good 5-6 hours with booster just as expected.  Afterglow was amazing and despite having alot of family crap on the days following this experience, I was able to function better than normal if anything (usually anxiety is a problem for me with events like this.)


While I do believe MDMA experiences can vary greatly on the same batch, after a few experiences with a certain batch you generally get a feel for what it's about.  And there are certain aspects of the experience which don't change too much, the biggest being duration.  But also the mongy, anti-social, generally fucked behavior these dutch pills give has just never been something I associate with MDMA.  So when I start to see that becoming a common sight for those under the influence of these (in my case imports) I can only think that something has changed.


I actually know a few people who never tried MDMA before, then took a dutch press their first time and didn't like it (having really fucked up, anxiety filled experiences) so swore off it for life.  I've NEVER seen that until this issue arose, everyone I've ever known has loved MDMA their first time before this.  Then there is also the issue of rising cases of fucked up lasting symptoms, this is happening both here in BL and over on my home forum DF.  At first I thought it was down to shitty pipe'd out pills or something but after talking with people who had tested product it has become more and more obvious that it is likely MDMA actually causing these issues.  The weird thing is that there wasn't these problems until, again, the dutch product became more and more popular.  I could go on but won't..


Once again, the purple coloration given during a Marquis test is due to safrole contamination, I've now tested over 15 different samples and those are the conclusions I've come up with based on what I've seen.  However a puddle that stays purple doesn't necessarily mean its good product.


Impurities can have an effect, look around at any of the chemistry forums out there and almost everyone who's synthesized MDMA believes there is differences between product depending on route used.  Even Strike thought MDMA varied depending on the solvent used for recrystallization.  I can tell you while I prefer as pure as it gets MDMA, many people don't as typically the impurities add a more fucked up "in your face" experience.  You have this feeling like you know your on a drug, whereas pure as it gets clean "good" MDMA it's almost hard to tell your on anything.  It just feels like something has unlocked your true potential to feel nothing but empathy and love for everyone in this world, you wouldn't know you were on anything if it weren't for the shit eating grin you can' t wipe off or the saucer sized pupils.

While Yes MDMA is MDMA, the temptation to leave any and all impurities possible is too high for a chemist to go out of their way to purify the product.  Not saying all chemists are pigs but most MDMA out there will likely have significant enough amounts of impurities to sway the effects.


-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> For now I'll sit back and see if anyone decides to be the hero and finally test the isomer theory..


 I was trying to do just that but I my attachment with the Raman spectrograms did not come through.




G_Chem said:


> My last experience was with known safrole produced MDMA, very pure shard that was near 1g which was pretty much clear and upon cracking open the crystal a faint smell of safrole could be detected.


That would represent a Saffrole contamination.  The question is whether this contamination is desirable or not.



G_Chem said:


> Marquis showed purple to near black (spreading the puddle showed purple again).


Marquis reagent is a primitive way of testing phenylethylamines.  It is better than nothing but not sufficient for serious chemical analysis/comparison.



G_Chem said:


> I can tell you while I prefer as pure as it gets MDMA, many people don't as typically the impurities add a more fucked up "in your face" experience.  You have this feeling like you know your on a drug, whereas pure as it gets clean "good" MDMA it's almost hard to tell your on anything.


Then you should be able to test that theory "organoleptically" by purifying the "mongy" product and seeing if it produces improved effects.


----------



## no_id

I don't take much MDMA but imo there is a possibility of bunk batch existing. And they are probably the majority. I mean, I took let's say 10/15 pills in my life, and one time I got a FUCKING SUPPLY of FUCKING PILLS I mean omg this was impossible to not be euphoric like never on them. You got all with them : euphoria, empathy, love, energy, duration, afterglow, fucked up jaws... Others pills I took before and after was not that great, even when forcing the dose in the upper range.

As of today I'm not fond of MDMA due to all the report of damage on forum, suspicion of neurotoxicity far more advanced than for some other and objectively better drugs (lsd to name one)


----------



## Sir Ron Pib

MDMA died a death but the quality seems to be really good again; got to be the most misrepresented drug. This seems a golden age again but it still happens - think a lot of year in the US was methylone/meph a few years back.


----------



## Squatter Jones

Id take the study, hands down. I have tried crystal/powdered MDMA with great effect. It wasn't white by any means.


----------



## G_Chem

Glubra-  Absolutely right that the faint smell coming off the crystal I described in the last post does indicate contamination.  But I'm not really sure it's so much the contamination of safrole that causes the difference as it is an indicator of potentially something else that does.  I suppose it could but I just don't know..


What I do know is this..  I've seen an analysis of MDMA HCl at the mid 90's % that was so smelly of safrole it could be smelled at a distance through the bag.  Pure safrole, and crude sassafras essential oil, are VERY potent smelling oils.  We are talking you get the smallest tiniest fraction of a drop in or on something and your smelling it strongly. I remember a friend of a friends roommates brother ruined an entire batch of hash oil from trim, large batch too, because there was the slightest residue left in the flask from a recent distillation.  (Not for synthesizing anything of course, and hash oil production is legal here.)  Every hit you could taste that horrible taste and gave a headache it smelled so strongly.


So with all that in mind, when a crystal that is clear and colorless and odorless upon initial exam but has the slightest faint hint of safrole upon cracking open.  It's my assumption that the amount of safrole present could potentially be in the micrograms.


I read recently on here of a well known ecstasy dealer back in the 90's early 00's that would suck on his pills to tell if they were good or not.  While I don't think he was looking for the presence of safrole, I have found it is possible to taste it when you chew down on the crystal.  I chew up every MDMA I ever eat since I can't swallow pills, I've tasted every dose of MDMA and MDA I've ever had.  You can actually taste the safrole taste amongst the typical MDMA bitterness even when it's barely detectable via smell.  Not something I expect people to know, but for those that eat their product too keep a mental tab of the taste and whether there is a hint of sassy-ness present.  All the best product I've had, has this taste.


And your absolutely right on Marquis.  But I make that statement simply because it seems to be a commonly talked about topic that the "new" MDMA doesn't produce a purple coloration.  I figured it was worth noting, and that the conclusions I've come to based on what I know lead me to believe that safrole contamination is likely the culprit for the coloration.  Safrole when tested pure goes purple and stays there.  Another tip, I am more of a Mecke guy than Marquis.  With the mecke, I can now read purity to some extent based on color reaction.  Make sure your Mecke is rather fresh (no more than a year old, fridge kept).  A sample with higher quantities of residual oils will go green to blue/black almost instantly, and the green is a darker more "average" green, it's so fast and fizzy that you get all excited it's a strong sample but it's because the oils react quick.  A sample of higher purity crystal, will actually react a little slower (still fast mind you) and smoother if that makes sense.  Also the biggest indicator is that the reagent goes TURQUOISE then to dark blue/black, and it stays at that color for at least a good 2 maybe 3 seconds which feels like a lifetime compared to the millisecond of green to blue/black when impure.  Every sample I've seen tested which produced the Turquoise coloration instead of just green, turned out to be very pure and good product.  (Slight safrole contam doesn't seem to effect it, we are talking amber/browner colored and smelly.)  Just another tip from someone who's tested FAR too many samples of MDMA in his day.  (Becoming less as it seems the government in my area doesn't like testing taking place, they'd rather people just die from nasty drugs I guess..)


-GC


----------



## LucidSDreamr

G_Chem said:


> LucidSDreamer,
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to be a smartass by saying this, but out of real curiousity could you point in any direction to a known synthesis where chiral impurities form to sway the isomer ratio in one way or another (not for MDMA, just anything really..).  This would actually help your guys argument in my mind.



every single reactions existing in chemistry that is asymmetric on an achiral substrate involves another compound being present which influences the facial selectivity during the  establishment of the chiral center....of which there are thousands you can look up yourself.

in those reactions we call those compounds, ligands, chiral catalysts, or chiral auxilliaries.  In a reactions where an impurity happens to act as one of these things. you have the same thing happening as what I just said.

see proline catalyzed aldol reaction.   just for an example of how chiral material at catalytic concentrations can influence ee of a reaction. 

also look at this catalytic cycle for reductive amination





Imagine any chiral material left over from pmk glycidate or chiral by products from the previous steps in the synthesis, coordinating to Rh in some fashion through L.P. to d-orbital donation, at any important step in this cycle involving the substrate. 

not hard to imagine that happening if you are ok with the fact that things with LP can coordinate to transitional mmetal catalysts.  
Not hard to imagine a chiral ligand scewing the ee of a reaction in a metal catalyzed reductive amination, since this is exactly how asymmetric transition metal catalyzed reductive amination chemistry known in the literature works.  

they could also be straight up using a chiral catalyst if they happened to steal a huge amount of it from wherever and thats what they have then chiral impurities are not even required. 

someone please explain to me how this is impossible and forbidden by chemistry.  Saying that there are not exact publications concerning this happening in the context of mdma synthesis is not a valida answer for the question why is this impossible. (shugenja)  i'm not even arguing with chemistry about you because you can't even come up with any actual argument concerning chemistry, your argument against me  is basically: "the answer to this is not published and proven, therefore your theory on the answer is impossible"


----------



## LucidSDreamr

crickets....thats what I thought.


----------



## Biscuit

Hooray LucidSdreamer! I agree entirely with what you have said and I tried several times to get that across but you've done a stellar job right there. If those using the glycidate would just purify the PMK manufactured from it, i think it would be fine, but I bet they don't. Plus there is definitely the question of chiral selective catalysts potentially being used in the reductive amination phase.


----------



## G_Chem

Good job man, now was that so hard 


Hmmm..  Alright maybe you guys are on to something in that regard.  But even then I still believe if this is the case then it has to be the S-isomer being favored.  The biggest reason being the duration described.


While we are on the topic of isomers, I'd like to bring up MDA.  Quite a few years ago I wrote up a theory on why MDA's effects differ so much, as well as it's duration.  It is located on another site and can be found by googling something like "Theory On Differences Between MDA Experiences" or something like that.  Essentially this started with my first time trying MDA, I was always told that MDA was a long lasting empathogen but when I finally tried it I found the experience to feel more like a short acting really intense better than MDMA experience which quickly dropped off into a kinda trippy residual stimulation.  A subsequent experience with a few different batches were similar in effects.


I went online and started reading through every single MDA experience report I could find.  And there seemed to be quite a mixed bag of what people felt.  Some people who were really reputable (including one person who is a well known Erowid report author) reported the similar experience of short duration (about 3 hours from initial dosing to feelings of coming down.)  While others described experiences lasting 8-24 hours.  It just wasn't making sense and the only thing that seemed to fit was the isomers.


Looking at MDA's isomers, the two vary wildly from one another.  Much moreso than MDMA.  The R-isomer is VERY long lasting and trippy, whereas the S-isomer is very short acting and essentially very close in effect to MDMA.  The variations in experiences seemed to match perfectly with the differences between the two isomers.  After reading it became apparent that the MDA I was consuming matched MUCH more closely with the S-isomer over racemic.


One particular report that stood out to me which I quoted in the work I talked about above, was from a guy who took MDA in the 80's from what I remember.  He said back then it would last 24 hours and they would sit out on the sidewalk all night handing out flowers to strangers and having random conversations.  He then describes how any of the MDA he tries nowadays doesn't have that same effect is just bullshit compared what he had back then.


It seems that potentially back then the synthetic route used could have also produced one isomer over the other.  And MDA with its more varied effects between the two isomers shows it better than MDMA with less variation between the two.


A few years after putting out that theory I finally tried what I believe to be racemic MDA.  And to this day still have some which I dip into occasionally, mainly to spice up some MDMA.  I noticed this MDA actually lasts 5-6 hours, sometimes a bit more and is much more in line with everything I've read of MDA before.  Very potent empathogen but more rolly, up and down effects, and a trippiness similar to Mescaline.  (Not so much visual movements and such, more seeing things that aren't there or vice versa.  One time I couldn't see a trash basket I knew was right in front of me til I blinked, another time I woke up right after falling asleep after a roll to a fire alarm going off and thought it was the thermostat and was freaking out on the thermostat trying to make it stop lol.)


The point I'm trying to make with all of that rambling is that it isn't just MDMA which seems to have varied isomer ratios based on synthesis used.  MDA has also shown varied experiences which match the two isomers, and each experience out there seems to be somewhere along the spectrum of those two.  The only other explanation for the reason MDA used to last 12-24 hours for some people may come down to the popular synth route used in the late 80's early 90's, which also corresponds with a time when people claimed 75mg of MDMA could have them rolling for 6hours solid.  (Both the MDA and MDMA lasted longer in those times, and some MDA pills contained 25mg!!! Yet have been talked about as good from the old timers.)


Damn there is just so much mystery surrounding this drug it's unreal.  But it's one of the reasons I also love it so much.  Deep down I've always had this inkling that while all MDMA should be racemic MDMA, that isomeric excesses can occur.  Even before this Dutch debate, it seemed certain batches of MDMA were really stimmy and euphoric while others were trippy and mongy.  Now though the differences are quite clear, but again the dutch product doesn't seem to match the profile for R-isomer MDMA so it's one big confusing mess aint it?..


-GC


----------



## LucidSDreamr

^ thanks for the thoughts.

I would add that there has been showing to be genetic variability in in how the body treats different mdma enantiomers, and how it treats mdma in general from person to person.



also, you talk about older synths and a non racemic product, what chiral material was present in these synths as a reagent or contaminant?...I'm guessing the sass plany from which safrole is isolated couldve contained some chiral materials that codistill with the safrole.   As I will add that you can't have a non 50 50 S/R product without something chiral being present in the process to begin with.


----------



## Limey

Most popular pill presses have copycats these days. I reckon about 20mg of MDMA to fool the tests.
Also average street MDMA is probably only about 30% pure.
I used to think it was precursors, however I was wrong.


----------



## Salemcoyote

Today 20:43
I agree with Le Junk 100%.

I myself have just tried the orange Teslas, my first time rolling since the 90's, they were tested (purple to black) and it was NOTHING like I remembered. And it's not nostalgia either because my wife is 10 years younger, had never done MDMA, and even she was unimpressed. There is absolutely something wrong with these so called Dutch super pills. Trust me, these were not copycats. I didn't just randomly score them on the street if you catch my drift.


----------



## Dresden

The Darzen condensation ruins it.


----------



## MrPorter

I don't know about 'old school mdma', nor i do know about 'super pills'. I did take a gold bar when they first appeared but i did it in one, a far higher dose than I normally would have and I agree with the lack of empathy, but I found it very very stimmy and didn't have time to be lovey between wild dance moves. Duration of ~6h up and down.


What I do know is that the MDMA I buy online *is* MDMA, confirmed by 1H NMR, COSY, HPLC-MS, and HRMS, which I recently had access to. As is the cocaine (no NMR).
LCMS showed just one peak for each of these. These techniques give minimal assistance to deciphering exact chirality but the multiplet in MDMA suggests it was racemic with no significant organic impurities.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Dresden said:


> The Darzen condensation ruins it.


How exactly?


----------



## Dresden

It lessons the energy of the propyl hydrocarbon side chain by oxidizing it--a form of burning--more than the traditional synthesis.


----------



## SwimmingIsTheBest

Swim is brand new to this website and was just curious about a few things. Apologies if this is in the wrong place, the little panda looking for help has no idea where these wisdoms belong.

First off, swim has done just about everything. Next, swim just relocated and in his new residence has been unable to find MDMA. He found some energy boosters, but is unsure what they are. Swim is currently awaiting Marquis, robadope and other testers to come in. Currently swim is going off of taste and effects. Swim got about 20 rolls, which are clearly not what they are advertised as.

Swim is a long time raver and can tell the difference by taste, look, and effect (generally). What swim has been getting gives him tons of energy, but very little euphoria. Very focused, very awake, no dilated pupils (could be tolerance). Swim says it almost feels like Adderall but definitely not. 

Can anyone shed some light on what swim might be getting while swim waits for his testers to come?


----------



## Tranced

Good old swim.

Bluelight does not allow people to SWIM because we know its you and it sounds very silly. I mean, are you suggesting SWIM is actually a panda or is that a figure of speech? Because the former won't exactly stand up in court, although I guess it would definitely give them a decent laugh. Be free of SWIM. 

Second of all we don't allow substance ID's, because it's completely impossible to know what you took. You may as well just cherry pick one of the hundreds of drugs with similar effects for all it's worth. That's all anybody else would be doing. Gives you energy and little euphoria, dilates your pupils and makes you focussed and awake? Hello pretty much every stimulant/empathogen ever.


----------



## SwimmingIsTheBest

No euphoria and no dilation. Tests came in and it just seems to be a mix of random adulterants. Primary (based on color of tests) seems to be amph with maybe a little methylone.


----------



## opiatekrzy

I'm sure the reason we remember the ecstacy pills back in the day as being highly fucking amazing , is because most of them had amphetamine, or methamphetamine in it, this combo alone is highly synergistic.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea god I go back and forth on this so much.. I still think it's down to impurities potentially but after further research I think I may have come up with a new theory haha.

LucidSDreamer briefly mentioned this in one of his last posts but no one seemed to hear.  Polymorphism.  Research in this field is truly in its infancy but polymorphism can cause a pure substance to vary in bioavailability, storage, crystal formation, and effects!

Here's a ref to a fairly recent study looking at how polymorphism has effected pharmaceuticals.  It appears we don't know all that much about polymorphism regarding psychoactive drugs but it seems to most definitely effect how a drug works in our bodies.

Polymorph Impact on the Bioavailability and Stability of Poorly Soluble Drugs
Roberta Censi and Piera Di Martino *
School of Pharmacy, University of Camerino, via S. Agostino, 1, Camerino 62032, Italy

Now next if we look at research studies we see one very recently that investigated to see if there was any polymorphic change to MDMA when under high pressure like that of a ecstasy press.  They found no change (seems reasonable) and also state there to only be one known polymorphic form.  I'd argue that there is only one known simply due to the fact most pure MDMA used in research is synthesized in roughly the same manner from many of the same companies.  I'd also argue that this research is too young to conclude definitively that there is only one.

It is very within the realm of possibility that illicitly produced MDMA can form different polymorphs.  And knowing now that these polymorphs can vary in potency and effect...

That ladies and gentlemen is how you get 99.9% pure MDMA to vary from one batch to another.

Speaking of I've been "experimenting" this year with different batches of MDMA (i.e. taking notes) and I actually came across a batch that consistently produced experiences which last 6-8hrs (in all subjects including myself who tried it).  I also came across a batch that hit very very hard but lasted tops 3hrs.  (All reagent tested only.)  Had a girl I barely knew telling me I was her soulmate after 3words with her..  It fascinates me that it can vary so much, but with all of the other variables (impurities, set n setting, etc) I suppose it's not a shocker.

-GC


----------



## Swim15

Good MDMA is definitely out there. I had my personal stash tested last year as it's the best I've ever gotten my hands on and it was about 97% with some small amounts of analogs or metabolites like MDA. Takes a little effort but easily worth while to just get good shit


----------



## Foreigner

opiatekrzy said:


> I'm sure the reason we remember the ecstacy pills back in the day as being highly fucking amazing , is because most of them had amphetamine, or methamphetamine in it, this combo alone is highly synergistic.



This. I raved in the 90's for a long time and the pills were very speedy. Ironically the first time I tried pure MDMA powder in capsule form was in 2003. Although I enjoyed it, I was a bit disappointed because it didn't give me that staying power that the rave MDMA of the 90's had. I'm in Canada, btw. 

In 2014 I had the chance to try a small batch of pure MDMA that was of limited supply. It tested positive for containing MDMA and I trust the source. It was the best MDMA high I ever experienced. No more of it available though


----------



## G_Chem

Oh yea there is definitely good MDMA out there, I've only come across two batches I think over the years that were "meh" although I've just been lucky too.  Where I live it's abundant I've never bought product that tested as bunk so I'm grateful.

The thing about ecstasy in the 90's though (especially the early 90's) is that there wasn't a lot of amphetamines mixed in when looking at analysis of pills back then.  In fact a good majority contained MDxx only although there was definitely more MDEA and MDA in certain areas.  The even more fucked up thing is that the average pill was in the 75-100mg range..  For instance the white doves that people claimed could take only half a pill and be rolling steady for 6hrs was MDMA and never that large of a dose.

So how in the hell did people roll that long on dosages sub 100mg?? (Like 50-75mg).  The only answer I can see is that during the early 90's when MDMA was becoming in high demand illicit manufacturers used a reaction which at the time was the best they really had for producing large batches at a time.  (Leuckart which is easily scaleable and at the time easy to obtain precursors.)  The downside to this synthetic route is its sloppy in ways and produces a product that is likely to contain impurities.  Looking at the few refs I could find it seems the leuckart was popular in the 90's but started to fade out in use towards the late 90's and by early 2000's other routes were being implemented.  This correlates well with people's supposed belief the ecstasy changed around then which numerous threads have touched on here.

I once theorized the impurity DMMDA (which is found in mdma synthesized in this way) could be the culprit but thanks to Kayman that was ruled out for the most part.  (EDIT: It has since been determined me and him were talking about two different "DMMDA's" so the theory still stands.) There are other active impurities present though and some of them have research to show they are active in ranges near that of MDMA on certain receptor sites.  (The ref I'm thinking of only checked 12 known MDMA impurities and found a few fairly active ones so there's gotta be more out there.)

Not sure how the MDMA was different back then but based on dosages people took and effects felt it's obvious something might have changed.

I'm curious if anyone who used to take MDMA back in the early 90's ever came across "pure" MDMA? One thing I also find interesting is how back then people claimed they couldn't make that large of crystals (or any crystals at all, mostly powder up until the past 10yrs or so) yet we see monster shards these days... Questions, questions..

-GC


----------



## ohlone

shugenja said:


> Except r-MDMA won't make you still high after 2 days -- as you so eloquently reproted.



R-MDMA is reported to require a higher dose, but lasts much longer than both S- and RS-MDMA.

It doesn't release much D at all but does release NE, perhaps explaining the cracked out anxious after effects without any of the feel good dopamine.


----------



## ohlone

I've just read through the entire thread and wanted to add my own anecdotal report, as someone in their late 20s who didnt experience mdma until the late 2000s, and so I'm not clouded by nostalgia for the "good old days" in any way. I don't have any chem knowledge so these are just my observations, trying my best to be objective. 

I'm in Cali and have experience with MDMA powder from BC Canada, NL, took pills and powder in Berlin, as well as a fair amount of experience since 2009 with methylone, mephedrone, 4-fa, 6-apb, 5-mapb, and mescaline. I space out my MDMA rolls to a few times a year so I havent yet experienced "losing the magic" from fucked serotonin receptors, tolerance, or just becoming accustomed to the effects.

The mdma powder I got from BC was brown and smelled strongly of anise before I purified it using anhydrous acetone. It's now white powder and tests absolutely textbook for MDMA on 5 reagents and gives a relaible, incredibly blissful, euphoric, eyes rolling into the back of your head maybe even moaning and wanting to tell anyone around you about your childhood and how you love them, the things you're usually afraid to say, "this is how I wish I was all the time," lucid, horny, basically a perfect feeling at 125mg. The comedown is a comedown, but it's not dysphoric like a cathinone or high dose amp.. more like, oh I'm slowly losing that beautiful feeling I had before, but I still feel good. The next day afterglow is really nice like others have described. In some ways this reminds me of the day after 4-fa, where you still have some energy and general good vibes from the night before until late in the afternoon when you start to feel tired and the poor sleep from the night before catches up with you. With my dosage and responsible usage (only a few times a year and I do load up on the proper antioxidants) I actually don't experience a "suicide tuesday" or anything like it in the days following, but I think everyone's neurochemistry is different so this probably isn't universal even for good mdma. Also, pure mdma does drain serotonin so even with the best, racemic mix some more sensitive people are likely to experience a little depression after use - some might even have what they would describe as a "shitty" comedown on good mdma if they don't know how to calmly accept the gradual ascent to baseline, so I'm not sure this is the best subjective measure of purity or isomer ratio. 

The mdma powder I got from NL was grey and didn't smell of safrole. Tested positive for mdma on my reagents. I didn't purify it so it requires a higher dose around 200mg or more. Mongy, people think it's MDA, low energy "couch lock," slightly psychedelic, not really good party material but still fun for a night at home. People aren't enthusiastic to try it again and would rather use K or even just plain speed at a party, which says a lot. Uncomfortable, with a body load getting closer to mescaline. I like psychedelics though so I don't mind, but this is definitely not one for the club. Really no dopamine pleasure to keep you positive out socializing. 

The MDMA I had in berlin was fucking perfect, just like the BC MDMA. That was probably an outlier though since I got it from a drug nerd at an underground party. Set and setting do play a role in some ways (beautiful women around, a beautiful Berlin summer day, everyone feeling free), but you can't fake that dopamine and serotonin push. This is just to say that there is (or was, 6 years ago) good stuff in Eurpoe

5-MAPB with dex-amphetamine in the mix gives results very close to the BC pure MDMA (feels good as fuck), but none of the other research chems I've tried are anywhere close. So I don't think NL is pumping out cathinones or APBs because the difference is pretty damn obvious. 6-APB is like an intermediate of MDMA and mescaline. 5 + 6-apb in combo doesn't have the dopamine stimulation and clarity of mdma, and feels a bit more toxic on the body. 

Not really related to the current conversation, but I agree with what someone said earlier in the thread and would like to repeat it: if any of you heads who love the empathy, lucidity, sexuality, and body high of mdma want to try something new, please do look into mescaline. You can buy peruvian torch directly from Peru, and just simmer it into a tea or if you want to minimize the disgusting taste and body load of the other alkaloids do a basic extraction (the instructions are easily found via google). The rolling, euphorc body high can rival MDMA, with a lovely psychedelic but lucid psychoanalytic headspace. The perfect drug for a night of therapy, either alone or with someone you love. Just a tip for those who have "lost" the mdma magic!


----------



## G_Chem

^^Id also agree Mescaline is one hell of an empathogen, MDMA AND Mescaline is godly hehe.  I had a life changing experience on a monster log of Pedro and 100+50mg very pure (the good stuff we talk about in this thread) MDMA.  For weeks after that experience i would just burst out crying at the sheer beauty the world offers us on a daily basis.

After my last post above I've been researching the topic of polymorphism more especially in regards to pharmaceuticals as that's where most of the research lies.  I feel after nearly a decade of researching this topic (the topic the OP and others have fought to bring to light despite criticism) I've finally connected the dots in this whole mystery.  Or at least enough to give us firm understanding of how we can proceed..  It's not conclusive but I feel the theory I'll present in an upcoming thread (hopefully this weekend) has by far the most evidence to back it.

All of the variation we see in MDMA experiences comes down to essentially 3 factors and I'll give you a hint... Isomers likely isn't one of them.  I admire the people of bluelight for their ongoing debate on this topic but the current theory is frankly unsound and many have been trying to fit a square peg into a round hole for quite some time.  I do believe isomers may have played a role in the quality of the MDMA in the late 80's early 90's back when there was large quantities synthesized right before it was made illegal by contract companies in India and China (just like with RC's today) but again I'll save it for the thread.

-GC


----------



## Shady's Fox

Well Eve nowadays is pretty fucked up considering all the variations we see, I can quite say that back in the 70' all way to 90's/00' they changed indeed. Also, these pills nowadays are most likely what I see it's just a combo(also which you can try if you would like) between methylone and mbdb/ 2c-1 - dmx/ mescaline. I just miss dolphins, dove, mitubishi, those little rockets and much more, I just cry when i look back in that beautiful era but we still got something left these days like teslas which can be pretty loving. Now considering we look back in time when we used to get powder, at least some of us and I remember in 04', I was at a rave with my guys & girl and I got the oportunity to try I think the purest since then, they were some good crystal not very light but also the taste and the way it feels when you snort it. Somehow last year I got hold of a pretty nice amount of pure and it just didn't feel right

What I think is that the magic we old skool experienced was because our brain loved that specifically singing high chord and feel for it and we just want some memories back or that manufacters/growers liked the idea of not fucking up everything and just love the nature itself and what she gives. Yet the oportunities today can still as I said in the beginning offer you some of a classic eve kinda view but not that close.​
Fellow ravers we like our little orange juice, keep it right beside pacifier


----------



## Steady Scootin

Good read for the most part. And he may very well know his chemistry, personally I'm completely if ignorant regarding the subject and wouldn't know, but of one thing can be certain when it comes to Shugenja, and it's that he has no idea what "question begging" is, which made for some pretty funny posts. 

Hopefully this isn't seen as a personal attack, it just made for some good laughs considering all the yelling from atop his soapbox.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

If I had to bet money on this being a real phenomenon it would be caused by:

1. Polymorohism
2. ee in the r or s direction from chiral material present.

3. MDMA isobars present that are being analyzed as mdma during LCMS or gcms


----------



## LucidSDreamr

MrPorter said:


> I don't know about 'old school mdma', nor i do know about 'super pills'. I did take a gold bar when they first appeared but i did it in one, a far higher dose than I normally would have and I agree with the lack of empathy, but I found it very very stimmy and didn't have time to be lovey between wild dance moves. Duration of ~6h up and down.
> 
> 
> What I do know is that the MDMA I buy online *is* MDMA, confirmed by 1H NMR, COSY, HPLC-MS, and HRMS, which I recently had access to. As is the cocaine (no NMR).
> LCMS showed just one peak for each of these. These techniques give minimal assistance to deciphering exact chirality but the multiplet in MDMA suggests it was racemic with no significant organic impurities.



You couldn't tell racemic from a pure enantiomer via LCMS unless a chiral stationary phase. Why do you think that a multiplet suggests racemic?

And as to the nmr techniques they could not tell racemic from a non racemic r s ratio either.

Nor would they tell you about polymorphs which could drastically alter effects.

1oo percent MDMA by LCMS or nmr isn't enough to address the problems this thread discusses other than impurities.

Personally I think drugs are different when you are 20 vs 40...your brain is different...placebo exists also. I have had amazing rolls from all different types of presses and powders and complete shit rolls with the exact same samples...mdma is a hit or miss drug sometimes


----------



## mmmooommm

Sorry.... but really, for 30 years? ... what else is hidden in your basement ?


----------



## mmmooommm

Le Junk said:


> Not this again.  You keep forgetting that I have, and have always had since the late 80's, a bleach white crystalline MDMA powder that is everything MDMA is supposed to be.  Extreme love, empathy, horny, heaven-like, touchy feely, beautiful comeup and beautiful comedown.  Fall asleep like a little baby and wake up with a beautiful afterglow.  The buzz from this powder has been the same exact thing every single time since the 80's.  It doesn't matter if I had an awful day, the weather is terrible, just broke up with my girlfriend, whatever.  It's always the same thing every time.  No excuses or explanations needed.  The new Dutch pills, which I sent into ecstasydata for verification and came back as just MDMA, are no good.  The only variable here is that I've done the real thing.  If this new Dutch crap was the only thing I've ever done, I might say differently.  Over the years, I've taken a little of my powder, a lot of my powder and medium doses of my powder.  It's exceptional at all levels.  I've done the same with the Dutch pills and its anything but.  Sorry, but this new MDMA is junk.  End of story.



Following earlier message


----------



## Intrigued onlooker

One time I took a 250mg+ and it was not MDMA. I was a newb back then and would highly recommend getting a test kit just in case the substance in question is fake. I'm almost certain I had some MDXX structure mixed with speed because I never felt so jolted in my life at that point. Yet street lights seemed to be geometrical in shape against the dark night. It was a strange experience and I wish I knew 100% what it was.

Get a testing kit.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^To this post and many others please actually read the thread before posting.  If you had you'd realize we are far beyond the "get a test kit" argument.

Also I apologize for taking so long to post my theories in another thread but it'll finally be soon now that I have internet access, almost have it complete on word..

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

Guys,

Recently, I observed the effects of various oral doses of brownish "Dutch MDMA Crystals" in 4 different VIRGIN  subjects (30 - 60 year old) in a house-party social setting.

By "VIRGIN", I mean people that have never used MDMA before in their life nor any amphetamines, cocaine nor any anti-depressants nor RC.
The crystalline powder was determined to contain MDxx by an immunoassay testkit, after 10^-6 mass dilution in distilled water.
The  immunoassay testkit is highly specific to MDMA, MDA and MDEA but it  does not allow the differentiation between these 3 compounds.

The 4 oral doses were 100mg, 100mg, 130mg and 150mg.
The onset of effects happened within 30min of ingestion and was characterized by visible sleepiness, in all four cases.
15min into the onset, the sleepiness suddenly receded and remaining effects lasted for 3-4h.
*No PUPIL DILATION* ( mydriasis ) was observed for 4 hours in any of the subjects !!!
A slight lockjaw ( trismus ) was observed IN ONLY ONE subject (a 38y, 85kg male and the 150mg dose).

SUBJECTIVE EFFECTS after the onset:
Feeling of general well being in all subjects
Analgesia of chronic back pain in one subject.
Report of sobering up, in one subject who was drinking ethanol for two hours before ingesting the "Dutch MDMA crystals".
Reports of euphoria and feeling of having energy ...but all subjects were sitting on a couch for 4h.
Lucid but introverted ( "mongy" ) behavior in all subjects.
Reports of hot/cold flashes and transient sweatiness of extremities slightly after the onset.
No outward talkativeness in all subjects.
No unusual empathy towards others visible from outside in all subjects.
Report of increased tactile sensations from one subject.
Reports of changed visual acuity in two subjects.

Is the above familiar to anyone here?
Any feedback is welcomed...


----------



## Biscuit

^ Awesome, awesome work and post. Too right this is familiar from my observations. This nonsense about all us nostalgic "old timers" being unfairly critical of the present day situation in the face of "irreparable tolerance" is absolute crap. Of course this might well be a factor in a specific situation relevant to one individual but it is not what is plainly happening across the board on a regular basis.

What Glubrahnum has described for "dutch MDMA crystal" is precisely what I have experienced and seen in others, including those completely new to the game. Earlier in this thread or in a different one, I spoke about how me, my friends and other "ravers" appeared in our old raver photoraphs from 1999 to 2006 (following on from which were a number of predictable and derisive replies). The expressions on most of our faces is nothing short of priceless  - massive pupils and a ridiculous looking grin from ear to ear that is made effortlessly due to the loved up state which the entire party is in. My memories of many of these nights are crystal clear - they were life changing experiences which demanded one get up, move and communicate with other people on a level which is rarely achievable without such enhancement; and when you weren't otherwise dancing and communicating, you were generally moaning in ecstasy from one of the many massages you might receive, often from complete strangers. 

I see none of this now when we are talking about the "suspect" crystals or mongy mega dosed pills - people are introverted, lacking in energy and not at all loved up; the pupil dilation is entirely underwhelming and their memories of the spacey, whacked out couple of hours they have just drifted aimlessly through, is in comparative terms far poorer. 

Now, there is no question that these effects are not the case for every pill or every quantity of powder, far from it. But for many, this is the new norm and it is not at all reflective of the reasons for why MDMA was referred to as "ecstasy" or the "love drug" in the first place.


----------



## BlueBull

G_Chem said:


> ^^^To this post and many others please actually read the thread before posting.  If you had you'd realize we are far beyond the "get a test kit" argument.
> 
> Also I apologize for taking so long to post my theories in another thread but it'll finally be soon now that I have internet access, almost have it complete on word..
> 
> -GC


Looking forward to it


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## alienfella

*Purple mdma*

Ive read about Molly and MDMA for about 6 years now. which is also about how long I've tried off and on. Ive always ALWAY seeked out the best and purest form because at one point I bought what I was told was X but in reality (after being lab tested) it came out as pure MDMA although pressed. This was the type of roll Le Junk has been talking about. Love and empathy abounding thought the night and amazing sleep followed by the afterglow next day... Amazing things happen in this state. Thats the true PTSD MDMA we should all be using. I say we use blockchain technology to integrate MDMA into therapy work in anyones life. It changes people. You could take a dosed PURE MDMA @ .25-.45 depending on weight. And completely disintegrate depression. Ayahuasca or ibogaine is not the only form of nearly overnight change that can take place in a human being with depression or addiction. MDMA has has profound changes in my life and I do test it every time and the color is not always the same so just test always. The best I've had is Slightly purple crystals.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Guys,

The relations of similar experiences, which you are writing about are very disturbing because they suggest, that there is an *"Impostor MDMA"*  on the market which can not only deceive the primitive reagent tests,  but also the more sophisticated tests such as: Immunoassays, Gas  Chromatography and Mass Spectroscopy, which are commonly used in the  professional labs.

The "Impostor MDMA" gives the real "Shulgin's MDMA" a bad rap, especially with new users.  

If  this lack of distinction between these substances is allowed to  continue, then more damage will be done to MDMA's reputation than by all the  efforts of the "war on drugs'", such as: 
precursor restrictions,  the deceptive NIDA postcards with "holes in the brain", criminal  persecution, disparity between the harm and legal classification as  described by David Nutt's 2007 report in the Lancet, Media bias that  reports every death related to MDMA and almost none related to e.g.  Paracetamol, attributing the CNS damage of Methamphetamine to MDMA by  dishonest research of Mr. Ricaurte, etc...

Most importantly, it  seems that people are losing their lives due to the higher effective  doses required by the "Impostor MDMA" as evidenced by the MDMA's death  statistics from the recent years.

For this problem to be noticed,  we must distinguish between the objective and subjective evidence for  existence of this "Imposter MDMA".
Real scientists will not listen to  the descriptions of the feelings of users under the influence of MDMA,  because they are too subjective.

We should focus on objective  differences such as lack of pupil dilation ( mydriasis) and trismus  while under the influence of this "Impostor MDMA" even with high doses  in VIRGIN users.
The shorter duration of the effects might be  admissible too, if the body temperature, pulse and blood pressure are  measured and logged every 15min.
Circumstantial evidence, such as  increase of MDMA doses in recently pressed pills, which goes against  economic mechanisms, might be admissible too.

The scientific community will disregard (or heavily discount) any reports of non-VIRGIN users because of the *possibility*  of MDMA tolerance and/or cross-tolerance with stimulants and  anti-depressants.  The same goes for any subjective reports such as  "magic is gone" or "it wasn't velvety".

The ultimate goal is to develop an *objective test*  for the "Impostor MDMA".  Once this is done, the market will naturally  reject it and the manufacturers will be forced to change their  production methods.

What comes to mind is a Raman scattering  spectrogram made with a polarized light as it can detect the enantiomer  ratios in concentrated samples (crystals) without specimen preparation and evaporation unlike Gas  Chromatography or Mass Spectroscopy.
To see how it works, see this video:
https://youtu.be/tRrOdKW06sk

Of course if the difference is caused by an antagonistic impurity or pharmacodynamics of different salts then the test can be made much simpler.


P.S.
Why do I even mention salt types?    
Because different MDMA salts have  different molar masses and that  directly affects their minimum effective  dosage ...and perhaps even  their pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics.  
I personally doubt that the former can result in the absence of   Mydriasis (pupil dilation) with double doses (150mg) because not even   the citric acid salt of MDMA is 2x heavier than its hydrochloride salt,   which is well known to cause Mydriasis at 75mg in a 85kg subject.  

I do not have knowledge of the pharmacokinetic/pharmacodynamic differences of various   MDMA salts, so I would appreciate any input on that subject.


----------



## Glubrahnum

alienfella said:


> The best I've had is Slightly purple crystals.


Purple coloration might be indicative of Iodine contamination from a synthesis that uses that halogen.


----------



## mostly-human

Glubrahnum said:


> Purple coloration might be indicative of Iodine contamination from a synthesis that uses that halogen.



IME - some of the strongest drugs I've ever taken have been off-colour due to impurity. IMHO - most clandestine labs don't produce 100% pure substances, so off-colour impurities are common. However, when combined with a clear/white cutter agent, these impurities are mostly taken-out. But if the substance is not cut and you get the 98% pure stuff, then you get that 2% impurity with the Red/Green/Blue/Purple/Etc colour showing through.


----------



## Glubrahnum

mostly-human said:


> IMHO - most clandestine labs don't produce 100% pure substances, so off-colour impurities are common.


Yes, and it is significant whether these impurities are neutral, antagonistic or agonistic ...and/or toxic.




mostly-human said:


> However, when combined with a clear/white cutter agent, these impurities are mostly taken-out.


I'd prefer to write, that they become visually obscured, since they are still there - just unobservable to a naked eye. 
Also, it's worth noting, that impure substances and mixtures do not crystallize well.


----------



## Phobos

Glubrahnum said:


> Also, it's worth noting, that impure substances and mixtures do not crystallize well.



I have been led to believe that, at least non the case of MDMA sold in crystal form, one of the possible cuts is a small amount of magnesium sulfate, because it helps growing big crystals.


----------



## Pucman

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background. I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985. Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular. In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA. I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime. The MDMA I get from him is a bleach white crystalline powder that lays like snow. It's extremely fine in texture but lays fluffy just like snow. The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same. An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy. You will melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world. Touch and feel is heavenly. Of course the eye wiggles and chattiness etc. The come down is just as smooth as the come up. It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby. The next day is nothing short of spectacular. You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty. You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down. It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to the current day street pills experience. There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy. They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder. But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap. And I mean crap. I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes. Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever. They're actually anything but. And both of these pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz. There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening. I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out. They seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover. No next day afterglow at all. Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before. And that lasted the entire next day.
> 
> My question is this. Is this the best there is out there today? And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays? Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here? My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it. I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue. With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great. But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz. Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether. Terrible!


I lived in Dallas in the 80s when we went to a rave a pill was given upon entry fee. Those were the fucking days although I was young and Rave was just starting in the US. But on Dead tour we used to get similar snowflake and put it out on the table and anyone could do as much as they wanted. Always woke up in a naked hotel room. Not knowing who all I had sex with but love cuddles on the beds turned into orgies. Those were the greatest MDMA times I ever had. We had a tight crew and all females were welcomed. I haven’t used any in a long time but had chemist made every time. I have always been scared of pressed pills after all the good times I had back then, even in college we could turn a bar into a water only venue and asked by bartenderrs to not bring it in with us anymore. Scary, sketchy yes but we always tipped the bartenders well as they would participate all the same it just killed their business. Even ran one out of business in a college town, time to move on, everyone knew what was going on. God life has been good to me. I guess that’s why I am writing a book about it. It’s been in the works for years as most could not believe what a fairy tale life was like on the road. They last time I did some it was shaped like real quartz crystals and it was fire. However The Hangover was horrendous. Maybe like five years ago. Oh what a life.


----------



## Pucman

Captain Donuts and Big Willy, Shaggy and Dizzy, you guys had the real love on Dead tour! Ones a lawyer, ones a Broker, ones a triathlete and one passed. Grateful Dead tour 87-93.


----------



## Theko

From what I've read about the synthesis of MDMA in terms of the difference between producing it in clandestine lab and a professional lab, is that it's only possible in professional lab to see and capture small reactions that occur during the synthesis process so that the MDMA synthesis method can then be refined to increase the quality of the MDMA that is produced.

The capturing method can't be done in a clandestine lab because you have to use extremely expensive professional equipment to see the small reactions that take place during the process, which the vast majority of illegal labs (if any) do not have access to.
So I think the theory that MDMA made today in illegal labs using a new synthesis route is different, basically poorer quality defiantly has grounds to be true.

The old method of producing MDMA stems from a professional setting, so once MDMA became illegal, they copied this already know method to produce MDMA which was created by professional pharmacologist in a professional setting. When it was first introduced the capturing process would have be taken into account, they would have analysed the MDMA in great detail, so they would have known that particular synth route done in that particular way produces high quality MDMA.

I think an issue could be because the new synth method used today does not stem from a professional setting, it very likely has not undergone the same professional detailed analysis.
So the MDMA produced is likely to be lower quality, one, because it hasn't been checked in a professional lab, and two because you can't capturing detailed reactions that are taking place during the synth process in an illegal lab, resulting in a product that is less refined.


----------



## turnupboss

I feel lots of real md today even when testing as true mdma doesnt have the same power and magic as what it used to have.

Maybe today more chemist use short cuts, cheaper methods or less skill and passion.

I believe the problem is chemist now are only focused on the money and quick flip instead of passion and quality.

Yall kno the phrase.......THEY DONT MAKE EM LIKE THEY USED TOO.......


----------



## Glubrahnum

Theko said:


> From what I've read about the synthesis of MDMA in  terms of the difference between producing it in clandestine lab and a  professional lab, is that *it's only possible in professional lab to see and capture small reactions*  that occur during the synthesis process so that the MDMA synthesis  method can then be refined to increase the quality of the MDMA that is  produced.


I do not know what you mean by "capture".
And if by "seeing" small reactions, you mean analyzing the chemistry of  impurities in the precursors, so that is not beyond small labs.



Theko said:


> The capturing method can't be done in a clandestine lab because you have  to use extremely expensive professional equipment to see the small  reactions that take place during the process, which the vast majority of  illegal labs (if any) do not have access to.


A small SERS spectrosope with a polarizer costs around $15000, and enables analysis of   even small amount of substances without difficult sample preparation   such as derivatization, evaporation and chiral columns needed for stereoselective analysis with Gas   Chromatography.
...and if one is very motivated, it cab be bult for much less, see this video:
https://youtu.be/tRrOdKW06sk



Theko said:


> The old method of producing MDMA stems from a professional setting, so  once MDMA became illegal, they copied this already know method to  produce MDMA which was created by professional pharmacologist in a  professional setting.


In the 1970s maybe, but after MDMA was outlawed, the criminal networks  were also producing good MDMA up to 2007, so it is not a matter of low  quality control of the synths but rather some systematic error in the  synths in the last decade.



Theko said:


> When it was first introduced the capturing process would have be taken  into account, they would have analysed the MDMA in great detail, so they  would have known that particular synth route done in that particular  way produces high quality MDMA.


That knowledge has not been lost.  It is rather a new synth that is to be blamed than a low quality control of old ones.



Theko said:


> I think an issue could be because the new synth method used today does  not stem from a professional setting, it very likely has not undergone  the same professional detailed analysis.


I think you are wrong, because  such analyses are not only constantly  done by the illicit manufacturers but by the forensic scientists as  well.  The latter publish papers regularly to help law enforcement  identify and link different batches of drugs so their findings are not a  secret.



Theko said:


> So the MDMA produced is likely to be lower quality, one, because it  hasn't been checked in a professional lab, and two because you can't  capturing detailed reactions that are taking place during the synth  process in an illegal lab, resulting in a product that is less  refined.


The end product is tested in professional labs all the time.  Intermediary reactions during the synth do not matter, only the pure end-product does.  The purification step can be well done even by end users  using anhydrous acetone and diethyl ether washes and Acid-Base  extractions.  From what I read they do not make much difference to the  "Mongy" MDMA, that became prevalent after 2007.

This can be explained by:
- an similar isobaric substitute, e.g. 2,3-MDMA,
- an unknown but isobaric 3,4-MDMA antagonizing substance,
- a different 3,4-MDMA enantiomer ratio,
- or maybe, just maybe,... a different salt of 3,4-MDMA.

All of these reasons for the existence of "Mongy" MDMA are not the  result of low-quality controls of a good old synth in clandestine labs  (or it would happen before 2007, too ...and purification would help  today).  This Mongy MDMA is caused by some kind of systematic error in a  new synth or precursor. 
For example: A new one-pot synth that directly converts non-racemic  3,4-MDP2P Glycidate into 3,4-MDMA without going through the non-chiral  3,4-MDP2P step.

The only way to solve this problem is to analyze what is the systematic  difference between the "Mongy" MDMA and original Shulgin's MDMA and find  a cheap reliable test for this difference.  
...e.g. if the problem it is the excess of the S-enantiomer, then  perhaps an addition of a chiral acid the Maquis reagent can be made to  make it stereoselective and give everyone a chance to distinguish the  "Mongy MDMA" in other way than "empirically".
Once this is done, the market will "right itself".


Reminiscing how much better the pre-2007 MDMA was compared to contemporary MDMA is fun but does not solve the problem.


----------



## Glubrahnum

turnupboss said:


> I feel lots of real md today even when  testing as true mdma doesnt have the same power and magic as what it  used to have.


I think this has already been established in this thread beyond reasonable doubt.



turnupboss said:


> .Maybe today more chemist use short cuts, cheaper methods or less skill and passion.


Less  skill and passion would produce impure product that could be purified  by someone else and "improved".  But such purifications do not seem to  help, so the problem must be deeper.  If it is an erroneous synth or  precursor - it is imperative to devise a cheap and reliable test for  this error, so the market can easily identify the BAD MDMA and "right  itself". 

There are over 20 substances that are similar to  3,4-MDMA (multiplied by the number of their enantiomers), that cannot be  distinguished by Mass Spectroscopy and Gas Chromatography without  derivatisation and chiral columns ( see *this thread* ).
 Any one of them could by the "Mongy  MDMA" or and antagonist against the "Good MDMA".



turnupboss said:


> I believe the problem is chemist now are only focused on the money and quick flip instead of passion and quality.


That is obvious but greed generates predictable market behavior.
Once we have an easy test that distinguishes between the GOOD and BAD MDMA, the same greed will cause the BAD MDMA to disappear.

BTW:  Ever since the BAD MDMA appeared on the market, the dosage and death  statistics have increased, but the institutions that should protect  human lives do nothing to distinguish/eliminate the BAD MDMA and still  concentrate on eliminating ALL MDMA and drugs that compete with Ethanol  consumption.


----------



## growit&smokeit

Good posts Glubrahnum! It's worth bringing up again that modern mdma seems to turn black on marquis reagents whereas in test kits from the 90s the stated reaction was to purple.

My very subjective test for Mdma is just if I take it when I'm out do I end up at some random house with some people I've made friends with that night. At the moment I have mdma that produces this affect.


----------



## Glubrahnum

growit&smokeit said:


> Good posts Glubrahnum! It's worth bringing up again that modern MDMA seems to turn black on marquis reagents whereas in test kits from the 90s the stated reaction was to purple.


I know, but that color change is very unreliable since it depends on the exact ratio of formaldehyde to sulfuric acid in the Marquis reagent (which changes with age) as well as the ratio of the alleged MDMA to that reagent, as well as the mesh size of the tested powder and its purity.
Most importantly, we do not know what we testing for with this reagent - what this color difference means exactly.

We need a better test - one that is aimed exactly at the difference between the bad Mongy MDMA and the good Shulgin's MDMA.
For example: If the culprit is a bad enantiomer ratio, then a stereoselective reagent would be needed to spot it reliably, e.g. a Marquis reagent with a chiral acid added.

Even the professional labs need to get their act together and start analyzing  submitted drugs more precisely, including small impurities, enantiomer  ratios of the main active ingredients ...and maybe even their salt type.



growit&smokeit said:


> My very subjective test for MDMA is just if I take it when I'm out, do I end up at some random house with some people I've made friends with that night. At the moment I have MDMA that produces this affect.


I hope you never encounter bad people on such adventures.
Are these other people also under the influence of the good MDMA... or just you ?

Do you get Mydriasis ( pupil dilation ) and if "yes" - at what minimal dose does that happen ?
What about Trismus ?

Would you be willing to send 1mg of this substance to a testing center if you had such option ?


----------



## G_Chem

Hey Glubra,

Thank you for your contributions and desire to set this straight.  I've also been working on this issue and just posted another thread on the topic I think you'd find interesting.

I personally in my area still get MDMA that provides me with powerful fully empathogenic experiences for 4-6hrs or more at 120mg plus 40mg booster.  Just had the most amazing experience actually less than a week ago and haven't seen my pupils that big in awhile although to be fair I'm not usually by a mirror when I roll and my pupils are probably always huge like that.  I never run into bad mongy product in my area and also still feel afterglows even after 13yrs of use.

With that said I've stumbled upon Dutch presses a few times and seen how they vary in effect compared to the local product.  I gave someone a Dutch press supposedly 150+mg and he said he was barely feeling it!!   With little mydriasis, 150mg should have your pupils like dinner plates.

For those that bring up reagent color differences, I've found all that difference tells you is whether safrole is present or not.  I haven't really noticed too much of correlation between color of reagent and effects, but more experimentation needs to be done on that.

Another thing I've noticed too is that there is a strong correlation between the rise in threads regarding long lasting negative symptoms and this supposed new "imposter" MDMA.  As soon as the Dutch mega beans got popular people started coming in in mass numbers.  Could be related to increased availability and decreased harm reduction awareness or could be related to the problem at hand..

I'd be more than willing to send some "good" product in but I think we'd still be in the dark until as you said labs up their game a bit and start testing for things like isomers, salts, etc.

-GC


----------



## Safrolette

Biscuit said:


> ^ Awesome, awesome work and post. Too right this is familiar from my observations. This nonsense about all us nostalgic "old timers" being unfairly critical of the present day situation in the face of "irreparable tolerance" is absolute crap. Of course this might well be a factor in a specific situation relevant to one individual but it is not what is plainly happening across the board on a regular basis.
> 
> What Glubrahnum has described for "dutch MDMA crystal" is precisely what I have experienced and seen in others, including those completely new to the game. Earlier in this thread or in a different one, I spoke about how me, my friends and other "ravers" appeared in our old raver photoraphs from 1999 to 2006 (following on from which were a number of predictable and derisive replies). The expressions on most of our faces is nothing short of priceless  - massive pupils and a ridiculous looking grin from ear to ear that is made effortlessly due to the loved up state which the entire party is in. My memories of many of these nights are crystal clear - they were life changing experiences which demanded one get up, move and communicate with other people on a level which is rarely achievable without such enhancement; and when you weren't otherwise dancing and communicating, you were generally moaning in ecstasy from one of the many massages you might receive, often from complete strangers.
> 
> I see none of this now when we are talking about the "suspect" crystals or mongy mega dosed pills - people are introverted, lacking in energy and not at all loved up; the pupil dilation is entirely underwhelming and their memories of the spacey, whacked out couple of hours they have just drifted aimlessly through, is in comparative terms far poorer.
> 
> Now, there is no question that these effects are not the case for every pill or every quantity of powder, far from it. But for many, this is the new norm and it is not at all reflective of the reasons for why MDMA was referred to as "ecstasy" or the "love drug" in the first place.


Dear Biscuit, I'll give you a virtual hug. I'm in my 50s and you have no idea how many times I have been slagged off for saying that the pills and MDMA powder of the past few years have absolutely nothing in common with the stuff of the good old days, apart from the name.
It's actually the main reason why I stopped using five or six years ago: a barely there buzz, a mongey feeling, followed by a huge mental and physical comedown. Not to mention that they feel so 'dirty'


----------



## Theko

Glubrahnum said:


> I do not know what you mean by "capture".
> And if by "seeing" small reactions, you mean analyzing the chemistry of  impurities in the precursors, so that is not beyond small labs.
> 
> 
> A small SERS spectrosope with a polarizer costs around $15000, and enables analysis of   even small amount of substances without difficult sample preparation   such as derivatization, evaporation and chiral columns needed for stereoselective analysis with Gas   Chromatography.
> ...and if one is very motivated, it cab be bult for much less, see this video:
> https://youtu.be/tRrOdKW06sk
> 
> 
> In the 1970s maybe, but after MDMA was outlawed, the criminal networks  were also producing good MDMA up to 2007, so it is not a matter of low  quality control of the synths but rather some systematic error in the  synths in the last decade.
> 
> 
> That knowledge has not been lost.  It is rather a new synth that is to be blamed than a low quality control of old ones.
> 
> 
> I think you are wrong, because  such analyses are not only constantly  done by the illicit manufacturers but by the forensic scientists as  well.  The latter publish papers regularly to help law enforcement  identify and link different batches of drugs so their findings are not a  secret.
> 
> 
> The end product is tested in professional labs all the time.  Intermediary reactions during the synth do not matter, only the pure end-product does.  The purification step can be well done even by end users  using anhydrous acetone and diethyl ether washes and Acid-Base  extractions.  From what I read they do not make much difference to the  "Mongy" MDMA, that became prevalent after 2007.
> 
> This can be explained by:
> - an similar isobaric substitute, e.g. 2,3-MDMA,
> - an unknown but isobaric 3,4-MDMA antagonizing substance,
> - a different 3,4-MDMA enantiomer ratio,
> - or maybe, just maybe,... a different salt of 3,4-MDMA.
> 
> All of these reasons for the existence of "Mongy" MDMA are not the  result of low-quality controls of a good old synth in clandestine labs  (or it would happen before 2007, too ...and purification would help  today).  This Mongy MDMA is caused by some kind of systematic error in a  new synth or precursor.
> For example: A new one-pot synth that directly converts non-racemic  3,4-MDP2P Glycidate into 3,4-MDMA without going through the non-chiral  3,4-MDP2P step.
> 
> The only way to solve this problem is to analyze what is the systematic  difference between the "Mongy" MDMA and original Shulgin's MDMA and find  a cheap reliable test for this difference.
> ...e.g. if the problem it is the excess of the S-enantiomer, then  perhaps an addition of a chiral acid the Maquis reagent can be made to  make it stereoselective and give everyone a chance to distinguish the  "Mongy MDMA" in other way than "empirically".
> Once this is done, the market will "right itself".
> 
> 
> Reminiscing how much better the pre-2007 MDMA was compared to contemporary MDMA is fun but does not solve the problem.



If the new synthesis method has undergone detailed professional analysis and there has not been any reported difference in the MDMA made in that fashion (which they surely would have found if a deficiency was present within the final product, other than the purity level) then I think there likely is no deficiency occurring due to the synthesis route, and the only thing causing a difference in quality is the same reason as we had in the past, which is illegal labs are not strictly run to always produce a high quality product, so it varies from batch to batch and from lab to lab.

I feel I'm leaning towards a conclusion that many illegal labs although knowing a new synthesis route to produce MDMA, are very often not using professional level detailed analysis techniques to ensure that the final product is produced to a very high standard, and it is that which is causing large batches being made in Europe and other parts of the world to vary and to be lower quality than some of the MDMA which people have taken in the past.

Thinking back to the late 90's there was a lot of MDMA around that was not high quality, and the MDMA that was stood out like a saw thumb compared to the rest because it was largely in the minority. Like the first Mitsubishi pills which appeared having a very big impact on the dance scene back in the day because they were notably higher quality than literally every other pill that was available. 

I feel it suggests the process of making very high quality MDMA is not as simple as following a known recipe, and there is a professional level detailed refining process that needs to be done in order to produce that kind of high quality product, it seems to me that even back in the late 90's only a select number of sources were producing that standard of MDMA, and today it very likely is the same.


----------



## G_Chem

Interesting theko, old school ravers make it sound like every pill back then was mind blowing.  You seem to say otherwise. 

One more thing I think people need to remember here is that there is such thing as long term permanent tolerance that can and does occur from overuse.  I'd say if someone thinks ALL product nowadays is crap then they are burnt out from a drug known to be neurotoxin, but for those that find certain batches to deliver yet others don't then obviously it's the product your finding.

When we say "all" product these days is bad or imply it, that's when we start the war again like what happened before with shunenja.

After re-reading many complaints all over this forum of the mongy MDMA I often see a use pattern as follows.. "I've been using every other weekend for over 10 years and for some reason this pill feels mongy with no energy, guess I'll try another batch next weekend."  No person can use often and expect positive results from MDMA, this is a phenomenon that's been known since shulgin himself synthesized and tried it.  He even states people only get about 10 good rolls in their life!  I disagree but it reminds of the point that we only got so many good experiences we can have in our life off MDMA, maybe not 10 but there is certainly a limited amount based on the evidence and research.  So don't use them all up your first year in the game 

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> I'd say if someone thinks ALL product nowadays is crap then they are burnt out from a drug known to be neurotoxin, but for those that find certain batches to deliver yet others don't then obviously it's the product your finding.


That's true but the reports of Virgin users should be treated differently.


----------



## G_Chem

I agree 100%.  I just felt that needed to be said as it seems often forgotten.

It's the virgin reports that alone make me a believer.  Looking at your reports above (great work btw if I didn't say it already) I can firmly say MDMA should not act like that in most of the population.  There's always outliers but 4 virgin users in one go really proves the point there's a difference.  I could see how if this wasn't a common problem it could be blamed on something else rather easily though.

So I'm curious, for those that live in areas with this mongy shit is common, do you see the effects of this sedating product in events you go to? How has the scene changed because of this non-empathetic crap?

I ask because I've seen first hand both the positives and negatives of certain substances or batches of, in the dance scene.  There was a time a local producer popped up synthing MDMA all the old timers said was the only pills that felt that good since the 90's, I saw how these little pills could actually make people put down the guns, grab a blunt and smoke together.  Watched entire friend groups form overnight, and the craziest part is many still friends to this day..  I still see that but during this time everyone was on the same pills and there felt like this connection and community between us all.  Ah the good ol' days.. Or maybe now I'm just jaded :/

Also Glubra, just out of my own curiosity what did the mdma crystals look like? Got a pic or one closely resembling it?

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Also Glubra, just out of my own curiosity what did the MDMA crystals look like? Got a pic or one closely resembling it?


Like brown sugar. The biggest crystals were 1.5mm^3.  Photo is possible.
I have to remind everyone that the immunoassay field test kit was unable to distinguish between MDMA, MDA and MDEA.  But this test is much better than the reagent tests, anyway and all these substances would cause Mydriasis at 100mg and above but this "brown sugar" didn't.


----------



## Tec

Glubrahnum said:


> Guys,
> 
> Recently, I observed the effects of various oral doses of brownish "Dutch MDMA Crystals" in 4 different VIRGIN  subjects (30 - 60 year old) in a house-party social setting.
> 
> By "VIRGIN", I mean people that have never used MDMA before in their life nor any amphetamines nor any anti-depressants.
> The crystalline powder was determined to contain MDxx by an immunoassay testkit, after 10^-6 mass dilution in distilled water.
> The  immunoassay testkit is highly specific to MDMA, MDA and MDEA but it  does not allow the differentiation between these 3 compounds.
> 
> The 4 oral doses were 100mg, 100mg, 130mg and 150mg.
> The onset of effects happened within 30min of ingestion and was characterized by visible sleepiness, in all four cases.
> 15min into the onset, the sleepiness suddenly receded and remaining effects lasted for 3-4h.
> *No PUPIL DILATION* ( mydriasis ) was observed for 4 hours in any of the subjects !!!
> A slight lockjaw ( trismus ) was observed IN ONLY ONE subject (a 38y, 85kg male and the 150mg dose).
> 
> SUBJECTIVE EFFECTS after the onset:
> Feeling of general well being in all subjects
> Analgesia of chronic back pain in one subject.
> Report of sobering up, in one subject who was drinking ethanol for two hours before ingesting the "Dutch MDMA crystals".
> Reports of euphoria and feeling of having energy ...but all subjects were sitting on a couch for 4h.
> Lucid but introverted ( "mongy" ) behavior in all subjects.
> Reports of hot/cold flashes and transient sweatiness of extremities slightly after the onset.
> No outward talkativeness in all subjects.
> No unusual empathy towards others visible from outside in all subjects.
> Report of increased tactile sensations from one subject.
> Reports of changed visual acuity in two subjects.
> 
> Is the above familiar to anyone here?
> Any feedback is welcomed...



We've been discussing this in the European drug board for years now, I don't even bother with MDMA any more.

I actually made a post on Reddit about this, speculating that precursors may play a part. People just weren't buying it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskDrugNer...rent_precursors_do_have_a_profound_effect_on/

Unlike yourself, I've been able to test with older and newer MDMA on people with no tolerance issues - same result. I actually visited an old friend in Hong Kong in 2017, we did MDMA together twice 2007, it was a phenomenal experience and he has never done it before or since. We tried some together last year and it was so incredibly dull in comparison.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Tec said:


> We've been discussing this in the European drug board for years now, I don't even bother with MDMA any more.


You should not give up. We are coming up with new hard evidence that you were right all along.  See *this thread*.



Tec said:


> We get lab reports on most major pills, many of us reagent test our  gear. It always checks out as MDMA, often very pure too. So why is it  crap?


In my opinion because the testing centers are not doing exhaustive analysis for 3,4-MDMA. It is just too expensive and time consuming for them.
I don't think they are routinely set up to distinguish the Regioisomers, Isobaries and their different salts, not to mention the enantiomer ratios and crystal polymorphisms.
Again, see *this thread* for details where G_Chem has dug up some other spectrograms for comparison with mine (warning: He only mentions them. They are not posted in that thread).



Tec said:


> I actually made a post on Reddit about this, speculating that precursors may play a part. People just weren't buying it:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/AskDrugNerds/comments/413180/different_precursors_do_have_a_profound_effect_on/


The mistake that you have made in that discussion is that you were quoting too much of *subjective experiences*.  I would not have believed you either, but now that has changed now ...after I observed the effect of MDxx on 4 Virgin users.
You should stick to *objective facts*, that cannot be easily debunked such as:
- different spectrograms 
- lack of Mydriasis in non-obese Virgin users at doses 100g -150g.

BTW: The Marquis, Mecke, etc... reagent test are presumptive and not conclusive so most scientists will not treat them seriously.



Tec said:


> Unlike yourself, I've been able to test with older and newer MDMA on people with no tolerance issues - same result.


"Unlike" ?
Alas, my 4 test subjects were also Virgin users with no history of MDxx use, nor cocaine, nor any anti-depressants. Not even cannabis. ...only ethanol history.
No Mydriasis on all 4 cases - *this cannot be ignored* !


----------



## G_Chem

I've now linked some specs to the other thread.  I am beginning to finally compile evidence that perhaps the old school mdma was a hydrated polymorph, and MDMA of today is anhydrous.  Raman spec from the early days (1989, 2000, 2003 so far) shows hydrated polymorphism as common and not many anhydrous samples, more recent spec from 2014 shows anhydrous.  Although more needs to be seen, I need to find more research on ecstasy seized recently and analyzed before conclusions can be made.

What we know without a doubt..  MDMA can and does vary with at least two other hydrated polymorphs which can be made via different crystallization conditions.  How these polymorphs effect the overall experience we as of yet do not know but we can extrapolate from the pharmaceutical industry research that they do indeed have pharmacological differences.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

What about these users who always ingest their MDMA dissolved in water?  ...or some juice

Would they see any difference between these polymorphs?


----------



## G_Chem

That I'm not entirely sure although I would assume yes.. Hmm very good question.

As I searched more today I found more anhydrous Raman specs from back in the day so I'm beginning to have second thoughts on that theory.  And have yet to see any from more recently (as I think the studies using these on ecstasyvwere mainly to test the efficacy of the technique moreso than to show us what's in our pills) so for now I remain inconclusive on the subject.

With that said I still think this problem is very potentially polymorphic (and if not then impurities) and will be adding some more links and great info to support this theory as well as linking pictures of both anhydrous mdma and mdma monohydrate which look drastically different and can be spotted easily.  One study I found even checked the hydrates formed from different solvents and found different polymorphs or "forms" as they call them based on solvent used.  While it may not be anhydrous MDMA that's the culprit it could be another possibly unknown polymorph that is forming from this new route clandestine labs are taking.

I'm going to work on that now..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I posted in the other thread, but I wanted to post here as well. Thank you again to everyone contributing to this discussion.

Your observations line up precisely with my own experience, as well as my time-line. I have had two primary sources for MDMA since 2000. The first source involved local, pressed pills. I had this source from 2000-2005. The characteristics of this source were: 15-20 minute come-up, a "rush," extreme empathy and love, fantastic sex, mydriasis, jaw tremors, eye-shaking, enhanced music, enhanced tactile sensations, "magic." Yes, these pills were sent to ecstasydata and were tested as MDMA. The comedown was generally 1-2 days of moodiness or "emo" depression.

In 2005, my supplier quit. Also, at that time, there was a large bust in the area and a major distributor was shut down. I had to turn to non-local sources and began to receive powder instead of pills. The characteristics of the powder were: longer 30-45 minute come-up, sleepy feeling, feeling cold, feeling introverted, being in a good mood but no rush of empathy and love, lack of energy. Sometimes there are eye jitters, but as someone else mentioned they don't feel "good." Everything is less intense. The comedown/after-effects is physical with bouts of nausea/indigestion/dizziness but no emo Tuesday. The after-effects last longer. These capsules was also sent to a lab and tested to be MDMA, but with an impurity from the manufacturing process (1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol) (http://www.chemicalbook.com/Chemical...CB92456152.htm ). 






Obviously, as someone who has a long history of use, there is a question of tolerance. However, other people I know have identical observations and an identical time-line. I also find it odd that my tolerance would magically develop at the same exact time that the supplier changed.

I want answers. I would love to have access to the same product I had access to from 2000-2005. If there were more complex and accurate tests, I would absolutely send in samples. Although both products were tested as MDMA they feel like completely different products and have totally different profiles. 

Thank you for investigating this.


----------



## mrbenn

@Le Junk. 
I completely understand where you're coming from here. Without being at risk of getting tainted with the "oldie all rolled out" diagnosis from some of our younger contributers to your thread, for the first time last week I was reunited with some crystal MDMA that 100 per cent mimicked the pills from the late eighties, early nineties. I'm 47 now and I've missed that proper "magic" feeling. I'm trying to remember a pill name that would resemble the effects of the MDMA I have now and one of them that springs to mind is the "California Sunrise". I don't know if you ever tried that in the very early 90's. This is the same effect. Fun, love, empathy, very little comedown and a wonderful feeling of being alive and communicating among others with beautiful hues and visuals. Next morning felt great. Now I've rolled on and off for over 25 years maybe 2 or 3 times a year and finally I've come across a batch of mdma crystal that is entirely the same as these early pills. My last roll was 150mg last Saturday night in half a cigarette paper washed down with a little water. I was on the go at the latest, 20 minutes after swallowing that bomb and about 3 hours later I redosed with 80 mg. The night was awesome. I Started at 12am and was sleeping by 8am. I awoke completely feeling ok and ready for tea and toast. That real MDMA is out there. I have it. And am actually quite sad I might never get to purchase it every again. It's that good I actually feel like measuring some out as we speak. But I'm terrified of building a tolerance to it. My brain feels absolutely fine and ready for another go.

Also @ Le Junk does the mdma you get from your contact race your heart etc. Mine stayed completely fine throughout. I just sipped water and talked and felt amazing all night. I believe that the MDMA we people are taking today although testing as MDMA is not of the quality of the type you speak of. I know, because I've been taking the same pills as them and not from the same batch as your contact. But it maybe be made the same somewhat.


----------



## indigoaura

> I was on the go at the latest, 20 minutes after



Mrbenn: I do not have quite the history of use that you do. My first roll was in 2000. But this is exactly the kind of experience I remember as well. Everything always happened in 15 to 20 minutes. I recall one experience in particular where I only took 1/2 of a pill, and I was absolutely floored in 15 minutes and good for the rest of the evening. Do you find that less desirable MDMA takes longer to take effect? I regularly chart a 45 minute come-up. 

To me, the difference in time alone indicates a slightly different substance. If we were just old timers who are incapable of feeling the full effect, wouldn't we still feel something at 15-20 minutes (even if it was diminished)?


----------



## mrbenn

Of course it's possible that's part of the problem here Indigoaura. I mean when you mention 'less desirable mdma might take quicker to come up.'
 I've been known to come up on a ups pill an hour and a half later after swallowing half , feeling nothing, then swallowing the other half 5 or 10 minutes before the first half started to hit.


----------



## anon65535

Interesting discussion and mrbenn if you can, I would love to see a pic of this new MDMA you have. I'm sure others would like to see it as well.  Any chance of that?

I would like to add some facts to the discussion.  Polymorphs cannot be seen with a GC/MS. The different salts and whether a mixture is racemic can only be seen with a proton NMR test. I am no chemist, but I believe even with an NMR, it would not be possible to see the ratio of R to S, just the two methylene peaks from the stereocenter. I do find that theory however, to be the most convincing though it would be the hardest to prove.  It's been a while since I took MDMA though I plan to do it in a few months as winter winds down (don't like doing it when it's cold, just my preference). I have a few different batches, one of which I have an NMR analysis on done by a friend. It was not a dutch batch, but a canadian one and it was shown to be a racemic mixture. However, when I took it I remember it was good, but not great. The best batch I personally have is an old dutch batch. The canadian one was a black crystal. Sounds weird I know but that's what it was. I may have to give that a go when I do plan to roll again.

I'd love to be able to find out why some batches are just crap even though they are tested by GC/MS to be MDMA.

I will also say that I personally love MDA, but man if that doesn't have a harsh comedown. That shit is like a freight train, you feel incredibly fucked up and it lasts a while but the next day is just death, at least for me.


----------



## indigoaura

mrbenn said:


> Of course it's possible that's part of the problem here Indigoaura. I mean when you mention 'less desirable mdma might take quicker to come up.'
> I've been known to come up on a ups pill an hour and a half later after swallowing half , feeling nothing, then swallowing the other half 5 or 10 minutes before the first half started to hit.



Not sure what you mean. The less desirable pills take LONGER to come up for me. I was asking if that has been your experience as well. The old fashioned pills were quick to hit for me in 15-20 minutes.


----------



## indigoaura

Here is a general question for everyone: is there anywhere to send samples that does a more advanced analysis that would show some of these more complex elements?


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## anon65535

indigoaura said:


> Here is a general question for everyone: is there anywhere to send samples that does a more advanced analysis that would show some of these more complex elements?



Not that I know of. EnergyControl I know cannot do NMR analysis.


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## LucidSDreamr

indigoaura said:


> Here is a general question for everyone: is there anywhere to send samples that does a more advanced analysis that would show some of these more complex elements?



you would need to know someone with access to an LCMS to rule out the R/S hypothesis

the R / S ratio issue could be very easily addressed by running samples through a chiral LCMS column.  Many commercial and clinical labs do this with methamphetamine, to determine whether or not meth in bodily fluids is recreational (racemic or D meth) or the non psychoactive L meth (vicks inhaler).

It would take about 15 minutes or so to modify the methamphetamine LCMS analysis method to analyze for mdma. its really easy to do, no body has bothered to do it though


----------



## mrbenn

indigoaura said:


> Not sure what you mean. The less desirable pills take LONGER to come up for me. I was asking if that has been your experience as well. The old fashioned pills were quick to hit for me in 15-20 minutes.



That's exactly what I did mean mate, the U.P.S. pill never took effect on me for 1.5 hours. The type of MDMA Le Junk and I are talking about hits you very quick and is 10 times more enjoyable than the normal pills going around these days and theres little or no comedown.


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## anon65535

Wow, that looks just like the MDA I have but MDA takes a bit longer to come up than 20 minutes.  Looks delicious though, that's what it should look like.  I've done a few hot acetone washes on the MDMA I have and will test it soon, I'm curious it that will affect anything. I'm not planning to recrystallize it in h2o or methanol/ipa. I added 5% IPA to the boiling anhydrous acetone to increase solubility and couldn't even get everything to dissolve, but most did. I now have it crashing out of the solution in the freezer after bring it to room temperature. That stuff looks good though.  Was it tested and with what?

Nice find %)


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## G_Chem

Most of the MDMA I buy looks like the pic above, anything less than that and it won't go in my body no matter how much people wanna tell me "oh brown MDMA is pure too!!"  It needs to have decent clarity and little to no coloration.

And nice anon let us know how that goes 

I will say I've never had comeups that fast even on pills that other people say gets them rolling in 15mins (og chi mints, rip) so I'd say that is subjective.  Every experience I've ever had (and trust me when I say my rolls are still prime) takes 45min.  So each person is definitely different in this regard, although based on what you were saying indigo sounds like you never really peak on the longer come up product either which is definitely problematic..

Since everyone is describing their rolls and duration I might as well too..  A good roll for me goes like this.  As soon as I dose the pill/capsule I get this underlying feeling like "ooo this is gonna be good" despite not really feeling anything yet.  Around 45mins in I'll get slammed and go from near sober to full on rolling usually within 15min, sometimes I need to sit down during this as it can get overwhelming but nothing a back rub from a good looking woman can't solve.  Soon as this comeup phase passes I'm feeling like a million dollars.

I'm stimulated but not in the classic sense, moreso I'm nowhere near tired, extremely talkative, oozing with empathy, yet relaxed simultaneously.  I go from a shy introvert to wanting to talk and help everyone around me, I tend to mother hen everyone and honestly knowing someone is ok is more important than having fun/partying while rolling.  I once spent an entire roll watching over someone who took too much acid (comeup to comedown 5hrs later) even though I could have just left him to fight it himself.  (Guy still thanks me for it and gave me a hella cheap yet dope sleeve/tattoo.)

There is no monginess, I can dance all night or sit and chat but if I sit my leg is definitely tapping even though I'm not feeling too stimmed.  Duration is about 4-6hours from initial dosing, booster brings it to 5-7.

It is typically a quick drop off, one minute your rolling the next you aren't.  But this can vary based on batch, good batches can still last a long time and be drawn out.  Either way more often than not the comedown is not filled with any negative feelings and usually there is this little bit of rollyness that remains (probably R isomer) which I can harness to keep the party going even after I'm technically down.

Next day is usually an awesome day as I bask in the glory of the day/night before.  I almost always get afterglows but I also consume a lot of psychedelics and think that may be a huge factor in that.  I also consume antioxidants during which helps give afterglows as well.

Oh yea and sex is definitely possible but I think that also comes down person to person.  Sex is amazing but more often than not I've got other things on my mind.  I actually prefer sitting in a hot bathtub while rolling (may not be safe mind you hyperthermia and all) and just groping each other casually while talking lol.  The touch will make you melt alone, orgasm isn't even needed.

So yea that's kinda a small run down of what I think of with amazing MDMA.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> I will say I've never had come-ups that fast even on pills that other people say gets them rolling in 15mins (og chi mints, rip) so I'd say that is subjective. Every experience I've ever had (and trust me when I say my rolls are still prime) takes 45min. So each person is definitely different in this regard, although based on what you were saying indigo sounds like you never really peak on the longer come up product either which is definitely problematic..



Makes sense that it would be subjective based on each person's system. But, does it seem likely to you that my experience would have changed so dramatically?

If the come-up took 45 minutes, but I still peaked, it would be fine. But, really you are right, it never hits the same high that it used to.



> I'll get slammed and go from near sober to full on rolling usually within 15min, sometimes I need to sit down during this as it can get overwhelming



This is what it used to be like for me. The come-up was intense. I was usually the person who vomited at some point during the come-up because it was so intense. I absolutely had to sit down. Now, its like, "Meh, don't feel much" until I finally re-dose about 2 hours later.

My significant other has the exact same observations/experience that I have.


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## mrbenn

G_Chem said:


> I've now linked some specs to the other thread.  I am beginning to finally compile evidence that perhaps the old school mdma was a hydrated polymorph, and MDMA of today is anhydrous.  Raman spec from the early days (1989, 2000, 2003 so far) shows hydrated polymorphism as common and not many anhydrous samples, more recent spec from 2014 shows anhydrous.  Although more needs to be seen, I need to find more research on ecstasy seized recently and analyzed before conclusions can be made.
> 
> What we know without a doubt..  MDMA can and does vary with at least two other hydrated polymorphs which can be made via different crystallization conditions.  How these polymorphs effect the overall experience we as of yet do not know but we can extrapolate from the pharmaceutical industry research that they do indeed have pharmacological differences.
> 
> -GC



That's a great post GC. I know for a fact there's certainly something different going on through the chemical processing of the "magic" MDMA that noone has quite put their finger on yet. I can't be wrong as I've spent more than quarter of a century using MDMA and I'm no stranger to it. I'm in the '90 per cent sure's' when when Methylone is present or other "close to's" . I don't have the wisdom of some of you chemistry guys on here who at the very least know their basic chemisty and the vocabulary that comes with it. All I can give you is the effects of my experience over the many years I've been a user.


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## mrbenn

I wrote other posts on this subject but seemingly they've evaporated into somewhere "saved"..


----------



## Tec

Glubrahnum said:


> You should not give up. We are coming up with new hard evidence that you were right all along.  See
> "Unlike" ?
> Alas, my 4 test subjects were also Virgin users with no history of MDxx use, nor cocaine, nor any anti-depressants. Not even cannabis. ...only ethanol history.
> No Mydriasis on all 4 cases - *this cannot be ignored* !




Sorry, I didn't intend to say anything negative about your findings. I was simply adding to them with a different group of 'subjects'

I have friends who have had exposure to 'good' quality MDMA, but only on a few occasions (so it can be argued that they have no noticable tolerance issues). Their experiences are the same as mine, extremely noticeable drop-off when re-visiting the drug in recent years. It's a night and day difference.

Subjective experience and findings shouldn't be ignored, but you're right it's harder to convince people. I think this 'middle' group of subjects are very useful, especially when talking about the drug subjectively.

*New Users* - have no experience.
*Experienced Users* - possible tolerance issues, deemed unreliable
*Infrequent Users who tried MDMA prior to 2009 (or from 2010-13)* - no tolerance issues, experience with MDMA before and now.

I added the dates because we had a massive MDMA drought in 2009-10, I noticed MDMA quality started to drop massively in 2012-13.

Keep up the good work people, though I'm not sure what will come of it!


----------



## G_Chem

Thank you MrBenn, although I'll say I'm still skeptical of the polymorphism theory for the reason certain batches just ain't right.  It definitely has an overall effect on the batch but if they are negative or not yet we aren't really sure.  The Dutch mong IMO is likely impurities, polymorphism or a mix of the two.  Ive concluded since that post that anhydrous MDMA is good too, but we could be looking at another polymorph as there is more than a few.

Indigo, I think not.. I believe your experience definitely is coming down to change in supplier/batch.  I'm sorry if you've answered this above but do you ever come across product that is different and reminds you of the old days?

And to Tec, I would maybe consider myself part of your third category.  I first tried in 2005 and used it I think 11-12 times between 2005 and 2010 (never close together but some years a lil more than others.) From 2012 on I started using 5-8 times a year, more often 5-6.  I always consume lots of antioxidants and follow every roll rule in the book.  (Never more than 200mg in a night counting it's good, stay cool, hydrate but also replace electrolytes, infrequency, etc.). I've felt the pre drought and post drought and I still come across lovely product.  

With all that said I'm in a different part of the world than a lot of you guys.  Dutch product here is imported through many hands and usually is insanely expensive.  I do know people who've tried dutchies and I've watched people take them.  I've "interviewed" these people, one of them being my brother, and the effects are different for sure.  I watched someone take a supposed 150+mg press and they told me they weren't rolling! And had no pupil dilation (tested on 4 reagents, looked good.)  Everyone I asked said they typically have a shorter duration, and a floor you kind of feeling where you just wanna lie down and soak it in.

Im grateful to live where I do, but I worry the Dutch will eventually control the market unless something changes...

Which winds me down to your final statement Tec, what exactly will come of this once we find the culprit?

I suppose making it headline news everywhere in the drug world would be a good start so then the manufacturers might get the message to try harder for precursors that seem to create a product the majority enjoy.  We could also potentially create a purification Tek assuming impurity, and/or recrystallization Tek assuming polymorphs, if either of those are truly the problem.

It is awesome to finally start to see people coming together trying to find the real reason, and no more of this bs MDMA is MDMA talk.  These are clandestinely and illicitly produced products, not all of it is getting the quality control it deserves.

I'm curious is there any people in the US that feel most of the product has changed or is it just those in the U.K./Europe?

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> I'm sorry if you've answered this above but do you ever come across product that is different and reminds you of the old days?



I am not a "connected" person, unfortunately. I have basically only dealt with two suppliers, the 2000-2005 supplier and the post 2005 supplier.

That said, there was a brief period where an acquaintance had access to some other stuff. It was a brown crystal. It had that old saffrole smell. This stuff was closer to the old stuff. I don't know that I ever really had the chance to try it at the right dose to compare to my pre-2005 supply. 

So...

Based on everything I am reading it sounds like in order to identify what is going on you would need to have a sample that produced the desired effect and a sample that did not produce the desired effect. Then, you would need to test for the polymorphs, impurities, and isomers to determine which issue is occurring. Is that an accurate analysis?


----------



## JG0007

I am no scientist and maybe a little late to the thread but could it be that much of the old school pills had MDA or part MDA in them? 
Where as MDA in pill form is very rare these days.


----------



## indigoaura

JG0007 said:


> I am no scientist and maybe a little late to the thread but could it be that much of the old school pills had MDA or part MDA in them?
> Where as MDA in pill form is very rare these days.



I don't think so, at least not in my case. I sent many pills in to a lab, and they were tested as MDMA only, not MDA.


----------



## JG0007

indigoaura said:


> I don't think so, at least not in my case. I sent many pills in to a lab, and they were tested as MDMA only, not MDA.



I meant the older pills - 90s containing MDA. Not todays.


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## Le Junk

JG0007 said:


> I meant the older pills - 90s containing MDA. Not todays.



Nope.  Ive been sending pills and powders into ecstasydata since the 90s and the answer to that question is no.  They were always just MDMA only.


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## Le Junk

G Chem has described an old-school MDMA experience 99% correctly.   The only exception being that the legal MDMA pills I was getting in the 1980s plus the same bleach white/snow like consistency MDMA powder Ive been getting ever since the 1990s always hits everyone in 15 minutes.  Regardless, the kind of MDMA experience he has described is unattainable today. Todays MDMA is just a fucked up carnival like sideshow buzz.  A mere shell of its former self.


----------



## Le Junk

Here is a quick tell tell sign that you are doing modern day MDMA crap.  Your pupils will only dilate to between 1/2 to 3/4 full.  With old-school MDMA, your pupils would dilate all the way to the edge only leaving a microscopic sliver left of your eye color.  End of story.


----------



## indigoaura

JG0007 said:


> I meant the older pills - 90s containing MDA. Not todays.



No, because the pills I had in the early 2000s produced the same effect described by LeJunk, GChem and others. The 15 minute come-up, euphoria, love, touchy feely good stuff. I sent THOSE pills to ecstasydata. They were always MDMA. I also sent the less desirable stuff in for testing, and it also tested as MDMA so something is up.


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## indigoaura

> Regardless, the kind of MDMA experience he has described is unattainable today.



Based on the comments, it seems that some people can still find this product, just not most people. 

Here's a question...could someone reach out to ecstasydata with these ideas and see if they can adjust their testing parameters to try to determine some of this stuff?


----------



## LucidSDreamr

...I doubt they would develop a custom test(s) without charging thousands.

I think the best route is to have someone volunteer to do this testing that happens to work in an academic lab and has a personal interest in the topic.


----------



## Le Junk

LucidSDreamr said:


> ...I doubt they would develop a custom test(s) without charging thousands.
> 
> I think the best route is to have someone volunteer to do this testing that happens to work in an academic lab and has a personal interest in the topic.



This is true.  I already contacted ecstasydata to see if they could do extended testing and the answer was no. They are not set up for that.  That would be nice if somebody, with the tools to do so, could perform the testing on their own.  I guess time will tell.  

In the meantime the only testing available is by ingestion combined with an awful experience.   Like I said, the signs to look for are a lack of full pupil dilation, extremely high milligrams on the pills and a mediocre at best experience.   Unfortunately, I dont see this changing anytime soon.  Very sad.


----------



## trogere

I had some great experiences with MDMA around 2005-06. I took a break, and tried XTC again in 2010. A strong dose, it was fun, but it was not energetic as in the past, and I had the constant feeling that all the empathy of the folks with me was fake.


----------



## Le Junk

trogere said:


> I had some great experiences with MDMA around 2005-06. I took a break, and tried XTC again in 2010. A strong dose, it was fun, but it was not energetic as in the past, and I had the constant feeling that all the empathy of the folks with me was fake.



Lol, yep.  Pretending to feel like you are supposed to feel.  Good times.


----------



## Glubrahnum

anon65535 said:


> The different salts and whether a mixture is racemic can only be seen with a proton NMR test.


This is just not true.
Many other analytic methods can indicate the enantiomer ratio and salts.
For example the Raman spectroscopy or even plain IR spectroscopy can resolve them when a polarized light is used.



anon65535 said:


> The different salts and whether a mixture is racemic can only be seen with a proton NMR test.
> I'd love to be able to find out why some batches are just crap even though they are tested by GC/MS to be MDMA.


This is easy to answer - see *this thread*.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Le Junk said:


> Here is a quick tell tell sign that you are doing modern day MDMA crap.  Your pupils will only dilate to between 1/2 to 3/4 full.  With old-school MDMA, your pupils would dilate all the way to the edge only leaving a microscopic sliver left of your eye color.  End of story.


I agree with you entirely.
In most non-obese subjects >120mg of "real" 3,4-MDMA should dilate pupils like on the attached photo.    The bad "Mongy" MDMA just *doesn't do that* !!!


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Which winds me down to your final statement Tec, what exactly will come of this once we find the culprit?


IMO, we will develop a* cheap reliable test* (maybe something like a mixture of formaldehyde, L-Tartaric acid and Sulphuric acid), that anyone will be able to use to identify the bad "Mongy" MDMA and the market will quickly correct itself once the sales of the bad product hit a rock bottom.
Hell, I even predict that the clandestine labs will be scrambling to convert their stocks of the bad "Mongy" product into a good one, lest their income will be destroyed by the new savvy users.

Soon thereafter, the "real" Testing Centers will have to clean up their inferior act, so they don't look worse than this cheap test.


----------



## Le Junk

Glubrahnum said:


> IMO, we will develop a* cheap reliable test* (maybe something like a mixture of formaldehyde, L-Tartaric acid and Sulphuric acid), that anyone will be able to use to identify the bad "Mongy" MDMA and the market will quickly correct itself once the sales of the bad product hit a rock bottom.
> Hell, I even predict that the clandestine labs will be scrambling to convert their stocks of the bad "Mongy" product into a good one, lest their income will be destroyed by the new savvy users.
> 
> Soon thereafter, the "real" Testing Centers will have to clean up their inferior act, so they don't look worse than this cheap test.



Well said sir.  Well said.


----------



## Theko

indigoaura said:


> Based on the comments, it seems that some people can still find this product, just not most people.



I would say the Skype pills by Q-Dance are good quality MDMA, one of the higher quality modern day pills available today I reckon.

I agree that some MDMA likely is mongy because it's bad quality, but also good quality MDMA does have mongy effects if you take a higher than normal dose, 
like back in the day if you dropped 2 instead of 1, or took another 1 too quickly you had sit down and wouldn't be able to dance.
Or just kinda wobble around on the dance floor, without really being able to lift your arms or move your legs for ages until the rush reduced. lol
That would be on a dose somewhere around 220mg - 250mg, about 110mg - 125mg in each pill. 

Considering just in 1 pill like the Skypes there can be closer to 300mg, if someone took that amount in an hour, even in two, or took the whole thing it would be strong and would have mongy effects because of the dose. Well if they took the whole thing it would be very strong and very mongy.

Whereas it wouldn't have that mongy effect if they just took half, about the same dose as 1 strong pill back in the day. 
I'm sure it is due to bad quality MDMA sometimes, but I also think people will often be dosing too high and re-dosing too quickly with those types of high mg content pills.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

Glubrahnum said:


> IMO, we will develop a* cheap reliable test* (maybe something like a mixture of formaldehyde, L-Tartaric acid and Sulphuric acid), that anyone will be able to use to identify the bad "Mongy" MDMA and the market will quickly correct itself once the sales of the bad product hit a rock bottom.
> Hell, I even predict that the clandestine labs will be scrambling to convert their stocks of the bad "Mongy" product into a good one, lest their income will be destroyed by the new savvy users.
> 
> Soon thereafter, the "real" Testing Centers will have to clean up their inferior act, so they don't look worse than this cheap test.



as the majority of "molly" users are content taking bathsalts and don't test product, I doubt the production of shitty mdma will see any dip.

not sure about europe but this is the case in america


----------



## Glubrahnum

LucidSDreamr said:


> as the majority of "molly" users are content taking bathsalts and don't test product, I doubt the production of shitty MDMA will see any dip.  Not sure about Erope but this is the case in America


That's terrible!  
I don't even encounter people with such mindset in my part of the world.
In fact they all bring me their stuff to test before using and even complain when my spectroscope cannot resolve different enantiomers (I don't have a polarised laser nor filters).

BTW:  I detected traces of Fentanyl in one megadosed X pill lately   ...very weak signal, but unmistakable.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

...that's terrifying...what analysis method did u use specifically?

I am so worried about fentanyl contamination in my RCs that I am going to begin dissolving them in a solvent (not sure which yet) then evaporating to ensure homogenaeity of fentanyl throughout the product if it is contaminated...as one spec could kill me if it fell into my RC

I wonder if this has happened to anyone yet as many of these Chinese RC labs probably make fentanyl analogues...and the distributors sometimes sell fentanyl as well


----------



## indigoaura

> I'm sure it is due to bad quality MDMA sometimes, but I also think people will often be dosing too high and re-dosing too quickly with those types of high mg content pills.



In my situation, this is not the case. The MDMA that I have access to that produces the sleepier roll (see my earlier posts for more details) is not being dosed in high doses. I have experimented with initial loading doses at 100 to 150 mg. Also, high doses of MDMA certainly do not explain the lack of eye dilation that has been observed in virgin users. 

Being floored by a super high dose of old-school MDMA is a very different feeling than the sleepier and less empathetic quality of the newer MDMA on the market. When you are floored by a high dose, you may not be able to dance but you are certainly feeling the love.


----------



## Phobos

The fentanyl in that pill might be due to the same equipment (like a pill press)  being used for fentanyl pills before the MDMA pills, obviously without a proper clean up.

There have been cases of athletes testing positive for a banned substance, that were able to track it down to a contaminated batch of legal supplements, that was produced by a company that also sold products containing banned substances.


----------



## Glubrahnum

LucidSDreamr said:


> ...that's terrifying...what analysis method did u use specifically?


Raman spectroscopy.


----------



## Theko

indigoaura said:


> Being floored by a super high dose of old-school MDMA is a very different feeling than the sleepier and less empathetic quality of the newer MDMA on the market. When you are floored by a high dose, you may not be able to dance but you are certainly feeling the love.




I agree actually, thinking back taking a high dose of the old school MDMA pills wasn't so much like feeling monged out effects, it was more like taking a dose that was too high, as in the empathetic quality wasn't reduced and replaced by a mongy feeling, it just felt like the empathy and loved up quality of the drug had increased in strength, and it was the intensity of that which made you have to sit down, not because it felt mongy. 
(so yeah I retract some of my previous statement) lol 

I wondered if there was any information on-line about the company that makes MDMA for MAPS.
Specifically I was interested to find out if they only use the safrole synthesis method.

Although that probably wouldn't make much of difference to finding out what is going on with a lot of the MDMA on the market today.
I thought if they do only use safrole to produce their MDMA, then that would kind of tell a story in itself.

As in very basically if they do, then I'm sure one of the reason for that would be because it's the best route to producing high quality MDMA.
idk, I'm not clued up on the chemistry, I just thought that would be quite interesting.

Because that would mean all the illegal labs would be using the new synthesis route, and the people making the best MDMA in the world would not be using it. In fact I feel pretty much certain that the company making MDMA for MAPS, never use the new synth method.

Even though that doesn't tell us a great deal, when I read that and think about it, it feels very contrasting if you get what I mean?

The highest quality MDMA in the world is not made via the new synthesis route.


----------



## Theko

Just to add, a difference that did stand out to me with modern MDMA compared to the old, is with the old skool MDMA there would be a strong REM effect with doses around 120mg, basically on 1 pill there would be moments when the eye's would zip around like crazy at rapid fire speed, and vision zipping to the left and to the right, very noticeable, like temporary going blind for a few seconds. lol The modern MDMA pills that even have a much higher mg content don't seem to do that. There was some REM but it was very minor and nowhere near as pronounced.

I guess some would say it's because the effects of MDMA reduce over time the more you take it, and I did take quite a lot of it back in the day.
Although, when I first started taking MDMA, it was around the same time as when the market bottomed out, and very quickly poor quality pills saturated the market, most of them had no MDMA in them at all, (I think the majority were a combination of speed, caffeine and ephedrine) and they were 2-3 pounds each, instead of the high quality MDMA pills I first took which were 10 pounds each in the year 1999. 

After about 6 months, that standard of pill had all but disappeared (UK), I found it practically impossible to get hold them, the local people I knew never had them, and I used to travel the whole country going to different clubs from around the year 2000-2003 and I never met anyone in the clubs that had them either. It was clear that the vibe had completely changed, instead of everyone being on MDMA, pretty much nobody was. So in my lifetime, I actually haven't taken a great deal of MDMA. Since then from 2003 onwards, I took a very long break of nearly 15 years without any drugs at all. 

A few months back I specifically set out to track down what are supposedly the best pills available today, which I did manage to get hold of in the Netherlands, and although I would say that they were decent quality pills, I do also think there were noticeably lower effects, like for one, rapid eye movement not being very noticeable.

I seriously doubt the reason for that was due to a permanent neurological change which occurred in my brain because of the MDMA I took in the past.
It's far more likely the reason why it was less pronounced was due to the substance.

It's also a little strange that on the main user forum, r/MDMA reddit, or pillreports, I hardly ever see anyone talking about REM, even the first time users, they never seem to report it as one of the effects.


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## indigoaura

> It's also a little strange that on the main user forum, r/MDMA reddit, I hardly ever see anyone talking about REM, even the first time users, they never seem to report it as one of the effects.


 
Well, that is one of the things that is being presented as evidence. Virgin users are not experiencing tell-tale physical signs even at higher doses (lack of pupil dilation, lack of REM).


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## indigoaura

This is interesting:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22700038

This just reminds me of how it was common knowledge back in the day that some drugs would interfere in your ability to absorb/process MDMA, and other drugs processed by the CYP2D6 liver enzyme could lead to an overdose. So, it seems possible that the co-existence of the right active contaminant could reduce the effect of MDMA.


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## Theko

indigoaura said:


> Well, that is one of the things that is being presented as evidence. Virgin users are not experiencing tell-tale physical signs even at higher doses (lack of pupil dilation, lack of REM).



I have to concur really, I think the extent of pupil dilation and REM are not only very noticeable to the user, 
but also visually clear to see in someone from an outside perspective.
I was thinking if I was to write a pill report about my use of the early MDMA, I think I would mention REM effects, and I would also describe the experience as a feeling of ecstasy. That appears to be another thing that people often don't say in today's reports, that word is very rarely mentioned, which is kind of odd, because that's what MDMA is or at least it should be anyway.

Like you never click on a pill report and read something like this, 
The come up was quite intense, once the pill kicked in I felt a strong connection and feeling of love for everything and everyone around me. I talked with a friend through the evening and it was like we had the answers to every question in the universe, it was an amazing experience.

What I'm basically trying to say is people's reports are written like it was just a brief buzz, rather than describing what it was like to be in a state of ecstasy.


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## indigoaura

Theko said:


> What I'm basically trying to say is people's reports are written like it was just a buzz, rather than describing what it was like to be in a state of ecstasy.



It is a shame that you can no longer view the old pill reports on the pillreports webpage. I used to post there from 2000-2005. I guarantee you that the intensity of the eye jitters was a talking point, as well as the jaw clenching and grinding. 

Quite honestly, the way I used to look on the old stuff was noticeable. I probably should have never been out in public. I was foolish enough to get some video on a few occasions. It is very clear that people are messed up. Now, I watch people and they LOOK sober.


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## Theko

indigoaura said:


> It is a shame that you can no longer view the old pill reports on the pillreports webpage. I used to post there from 2000-2005. I guarantee you that the intensity of the eye jitters was a talking point, as well as the jaw clenching and grinding.
> 
> Quite honestly, the way I used to look on the old stuff was noticeable. I probably should have never been out in public. I was foolish enough to get some video on a few occasions. It is very clear that people are messed up. Now, I watch people and they LOOK sober.



That would be interesting to read past reports and compare them to the modern reports that appear on the site today.
One of the ways I would gauge good quality MDMA is if someone takes it for the first time and they do not behave like the girl in this video, or very similar to it, then they are not on good quality MDMA. lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rYXcmVSeBU&t=139s

At the end of the day, I do feel my instinct telling me that something is different about the quality of the modern product.
And like you said, I think there is enough evidence to support it.


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## SympatheticMD

*Merck and Dole are the proud parents of MDMA*

I was there, Le Junk, in Texas in 1984, and everything you are saying is true.  I've been reading threads for almost two hours now, trying to figure out what the explanation is.  I have an MD and a PhD in Neuroscience, but my knowledge of straight-up chemistry is fairly limited.  All the hostility about old people being assholes who complain without merit about the X of the old days is lost on me.  I thought the point was to question what the difference might be in order to facilitate  the distribution of whatever-it-was-that-I-used-to-consume-in-the-80s.  I miss it so much.  It seems to me that your friend is the best person to explain it.

I found an great article that reviews the chemical origin of MDMA.  I'll add the link.  It was originally created in 1912 by Merck pharmaceuticals as a BYPRODUCT in the formation of some sort of blood thinning medication.  Apparently, there has been a fiery debate over who truly owns the patent for MDMA, since the one filed by Merck includes the structure of MDMA within the text, but it is not specifically tested or named as an end-product for ownership.  This should make this race to produce FDA-approved ecstasy pretty fun to watch.  Some random guy from Poland published an article in the 1950s describing the synthesis of MDMA out of the blue, but nothing else was said about why he decided to make it in this article.  Then a guy working at Dole made MDMA again in the 1960s, and he published a test of its psychotropic effects. 

I'm tripping all over myself to say that Ecstasy was first created by Merck pharmaceuticals and was later co-opted by Dole.  Merck and Dole proudly present MDMA.  

Ecstasy  emerged later in the 70s for use in psychotherapy, and then it quickly became a hit with the street crowds.  I like to imagine some chemistry nerd working for Dole with a pineapple on his desk, realizing that he had uncovered a pretty fantastic drug that had gone unnoticed for 55 years.  I like to think he started making it for his friends and then their friends and then he just walked out of that big Pineapple lab.

What I found most interesting is that this original MDMA, this by-product Merck stumbled on, was first called "safrylmethylamine".  Safrole was the initial chemical ingredient used to start the chemical reactions that eventually formed MDMA (safrylmethylamine).  

Merck stopped making the derivative forms of the MDMA that they were trying to sell because it was too expensive to make the MDMA itself.  I read some old thread on this site entitled "that's how we rolled in the 90s" or something like that, and a chemist in this group finally spoke up and pointed out that the MDMA of today is not made from this initial safrole compound.  They use something else as a precursor now.  People argued for pages that if the final product is chemically authentic MDMA, with all the molecules correctly aligned, than it shouldn't matter what the progenitor compound is.  MDMA is MDMA.  I cannot argue with that.  However, I can make the argument that we weren't going around testing pills before we took them.  I watched people grab them out of bowls like free candy at a bar in Dallas.  Real, honest to God party favors.  Will you ask your friend if starting with safrole has any possibility of making a difference?  Even if his answer is no, I'm willing to bet that the chemical compound is just a tiny bit different somehow.  I don't buy the shit about enantiomers.  The drugs feel too different.

Here is there article.  And Cheers to the guy who worked for Dole, where he resurrected one great compound.  
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conte...rt00015?crawler=true&mimetype=application/pdf


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## indigoaura

> That would be interesting to read past reports and compare them to the modern reports that appear on the site today.



So, here are some of the oldest on the pillreports website. This would have been just at the end of the time that I was getting good pills.

https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=24
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=92 (this is not a report of a great pill, but notice how the user is looking for the eye wiggles and eye dilation)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=4 (another one with focus on the eyes)

Overall, if you read through those 2005 reports you see a lot of people talking about "eye wiggling" or noting at what point their eyes dilated. Those were clear markers for the experience and whether you had good stuff or not.


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## indigoaura

Sympathetic MD, as a neuro-scientist, any idea what the effect of 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol as an impurity would be?


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## SympatheticMD

Nope.  That's the chemistry I don't know much about.  You guys are way ahead of me on all this stuff.  If someone has two pills he says are very different, and they test in a lab as chemically identical, then we are never going to figure this out.  I don't know if the technology falls short of being sensitive to differences like anhydrous or polymorphous whatever that guy was talking about.  The pills are different and the machines are not sophisticated enough to say why.  Unfortunately, this could support the racemic theory, but I'm not biting.  I'm loving the idea that somehow the original compound safrole makes the difference.  There is a romance to it, but I don't have the education to explain it.  If a real chemist looked up the paper the polish guy published, where he described exactly how he made his MDMA, I think that would be the recipe.  Assuming the guy from Dole followed that paper in HIS production of MDMA.


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## indigoaura

Safrole makes sense due to the subjective user reports of a strong safrole smell associated with old, high quality MDMA. I think part of the issue is that safrole became very tightly regulated and hard to obtain, so labs had to look for other methods. I wonder if the Polish paper mirrors Shulgin's synthesis method from Pihkal. Due to Pihkal's popularity, I think that would have been a common synthesis method early on.


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## SympatheticMD

I have a question for all the old geezers out there.  I remember when ecstasy transitioned to being fairly legal and out on the tables at bars into something that you had to find a dealer to buy.  I'd swear that sometime in the late 80s, they started making a "designer drug" version of MDMA that was chemically off by one tiny -OH group (I'm making the actual hydroxy part up).  
There was a different name for this drug.  Does anyone know what it was?  I hate to admit this, but I used to think that X was the name for MDMA.  We didn't call it ecstasy.  I assumed it was X, and I swear to god the "designer drug" that managed to be legal was called E.  Or something else.
Am I going insane?  And does anyone know what the drug I'm calling E really was from a chemical perspective?  Whatever it was, it was also pretty good.


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## indigoaura

You might be remembering 2CB. From the drug history I read, 2CB was passed out at bars in Dallas as well, and the added hallucinogenic quality of 2CB is what caused some of the unwanted attention towards MDMA. I know it briefly was called "Bees," and was also referred to as a designer drug.


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## indigoaura

Then you also had MDA (Eve). I am not as familiar with the history of MDA though.


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## SympatheticMD

Thanks!  That would have kept me up all night.  If memory serves then, MDA is nice.  But I was very young and not discerning.


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## indigoaura

I actually got the street name wrong, according to Erowid, MDE/MDEA was named Eve, but I swear I recall reading that MDA was called Eve too.

I have done MDA quite a few times. Longer effect than MDMA, more speedy and dopamine driven, more psychedelic. 

I don't think I have ever encountered MDE or MDEA. If I did, I was not aware of it. It was already illegal by the time I started experimenting and not readily available.


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## SympatheticMD

I think maybe you need to write a thesis about all this stuff.  

I forgot about how the old "X" hit me, so your old posts were nice reminder.  That is actually a defining feature of the stuff I took in the late 80s.  I don't remember how long it took to hit me, but it must have been fairly short because the group  would take it and then stare at each other asking who felt it first.  We didn't walk around and have a drink and forget we had taken it.  And then when it started, it was almost too much to take.  I'd have to curl up in a ball with every muscle tight, holding somebody's hand while they swore I would be ok.  And then poof! like a fart, my entire body would relax and love absolutely everything it came in contact with.  
It was seriously an intense transition.  And I always got what felt like a very real crush on someone I had hung out with on the drug.  And the crush lasted for weeks.  So I was in full support of therapists using it for couples.  I can imagine it keeping a couple together for years (perhaps that is artificial and drug-dependent, but at least you are loving the one your with instating of yelling at them for stupid shit)


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## LucidSDreamr

SympatheticMD said:


> Nope.  That's the chemistry I don't know much about.  You guys are way ahead of me on all this stuff.  If someone has two pills he says are very different, and they test in a lab as chemically identical, then we are never going to figure this out.  I don't know if the technology falls short of being sensitive to differences like anhydrous or polymorphous whatever that guy was talking about.  The pills are different and the machines are not sophisticated enough to say why.  Unfortunately, this could support the racemic theory, but I'm not biting.  I'm loving the idea that somehow the original compound safrole makes the difference.  There is a romance to it, but I don't have the education to explain it.  If a real chemist looked up the paper the polish guy published, where he described exactly how he made his MDMA, I think that would be the recipe.  Assuming the guy from Dole followed that paper in HIS production of MDMA.



the technology exists to figure this out easily, chiral LCMS, x-ray diffraction, NMR. 

 the labs ppl send to aren't at that level though and are mainly just staffed with technicians not scientists.


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## indigoaura

> And then when it started, it was almost too much to take. I'd have to curl up in a ball with every muscle tight, holding somebody's hand while they swore I would be ok. And then poof! like a fart, my entire body would relax and love absolutely everything it came in contact with.



Exactly. Like a freight train. Sit down. Lay down. Vomit. Say, "Holy fuck." Then, all of a sudden, like you crossed some threshold, you were THERE.


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## Le Junk

SympatheticMD said:


> I think maybe you need to write a thesis about all this stuff.
> 
> I forgot about how the old "X" hit me, so your old posts were nice reminder.  That is actually a defining feature of the stuff I took in the late 80s.  I don't remember how long it took to hit me, but it must have been fairly short because the group  would take it and then stare at each other asking who felt it first.  We didn't walk around and have a drink and forget we had taken it.  And then when it started, it was almost too much to take.  I'd have to curl up in a ball with every muscle tight, holding somebody's hand while they swore I would be ok.  And then poof! like a fart, my entire body would relax and love absolutely everything it came in contact with.
> It was seriously an intense transition.  And I always got what felt like a very real crush on someone I had hung out with on the drug.  And the crush lasted for weeks.  So I was in full support of therapists using it for couples.  I can imagine it keeping a couple together for years (perhaps that is artificial and drug-dependent, but at least you are loving the one your with instating of yelling at them for stupid shit)



Exactly.  Interesting how you don't see modern day users describing their experiences that way.  Just more evidence.


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## LucidSDreamr

^ I have gotten the same thing in terms of the freight train/intense rush come up from MDMA available today several times. from both all types of powders and pressed pills. While I've had other mdma with more of the "mongy, visual distorion" smoother come up. the both result in strong empathetic peaks for me.  So do the analogues like 6-apb.

There may be a genetic component to this where only certain people feel the bad part of "bad mdma"

I did read something on this board about a scientific journal article someone posted where people with different genetic variants of certain proteins with either metabolized the different enenatiomers of mdma differently or at different rates or they bound differently to target receptors...I don't remember exactly what it was.


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## indigoaura

I was just reading this one yesterday, LucidSDreamr, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29348651

Genetic factors could certainly be at play. But, the impression I am getting the more I read is that there is still old-fashioned MDMA out there, it is just in the minority. So, some people are going to access it, and perhaps there are regional factors at play there. Also possible that the "mongy" MDMA has varying levels of impurities per batch. So, perhaps the effects are variable.


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## SympatheticMD

That makes a lot of sense.  There is a company that does genetic testing and they run a specific set of tests that psychiatrists use to help them choose the right antidepressants or other psych meds.  They test for how quickly you metabolize medications in addition to what kinds of seratonin reuptake receptors you have and what types of serotonin receptors you have.  

So, yes people will metabolize all kinds of drugs differently in addition to responding to them to different degrees in their brain neurotransmission.  However, I have taken this test (I love genetics), and I was shown to be a person who both metabolizes serotonin drugs quickly in addition to not responding well to them.  Yet I still had a good time with the old MDMA. 

Thanks for posting that article.  I'll check it out tomorrow.


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## SympatheticMD

I just read it.  That is my genotype!  Funny.


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## indigoaura

And, I have the double mutation for MAO A R297R (rs6323), the so called "warrior gene." Based on my limited understanding, this means that I break down neurotransmitters more slowly due to having less MAO-A circulating. So, you would think that I would be more susceptible to the effects of MDMA due to more circulating serotonin.


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## andyturbo

indigoaura said:


> I was just reading this one yesterday, LucidSDreamr, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29348651
> 
> Genetic factors could certainly be at play. But, the impression I am getting the more I read is that there is still old-fashioned MDMA out there, it is just in the minority. So, some people are going to access it, and perhaps there are regional factors at play there. Also possible that the "mongy" MDMA has varying levels of impurities per batch. So, perhaps the effects are variable.



You are 100% correct. I wish i could go into it more but it will be breaking BL guidelines. Summed up, Superlabs these days are synthing via alternate presecures too saffarole. However if your lucky, or know the right people, there is still good old saff MDMA pills being pressed in moderate quantities. - I assume.


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## SympatheticMD

thanks for everyone's input.  You guys know a lot, and it has been super fun to research all this stuff and get my brain thinking again. I appreciate everyone's opinions and academic references - this is a great site!  I wish I could somehow move this to the more legal world where it could do some good from a medical perspective (and quite honestly, a personal enjoyment level),...but you never know what knowledge can bring. 

No matter how many people might discourage me from discussions like this due to its professional "liabilities", I think these are the kinds of forums in which valuable information is shared that can lead to all kinds of great things - both recreationally and more importantly for medical treatment, recovery, and prevention of harm from toxic street drugs.  So cheers to all of you!


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## pothole

It's all to do with synthesis. The original precurser was saffrole, then around 1998ish it switched to pmk, then around 2010 it switched again to pmk glycidate. Unfortunately mdma suffered from the new synth.


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## G_Chem

SympatheticMD read my other thread to get a better perspective on why MDMA batches vary from one to the next because it's a complicated matter (more so than just safrole produced VS non safrole produced product).  I see this thread has grown much since I've been gone 

As lucid said we have the technology to figure this problem out we just don't have the financial or legal backing to do so, or anyone in the position willing to take the risk for the betterment of the MDMA taking community..

You guys do make good points on the eyes too.  I see it in my area plenty still but when I look at pictures from elsewhere or travel I don't see the same dilated pupils to the max.  Eye twitches are like almost unheard of these days..

Pothole, my research seems to indicate different and this also depends on where you live.  Safrole is still used to this day, and PMK was often produced from safrole up until the mid to late 00's since then things have changed a bit.  Piperanol was starting to get used in the early to mid 00's and based on what we know from indigo it seems the product from that synthesis (piperanol to nitropropene) is definitely not ideal and mongy.

We can't really make any conclusive statements on what precursors were used when because it really has varied.  Maybe in the old days the late 80's and 90's but since then there have become too many chemists and too many synthetic routes produced in too many different locations.  You guys say MDMA that smells of safrole is rare but around here in my neck of the woods it isn't.

One small change in the synthetic route can change the effect profile.  So again I ask we stop making this so black and white.  It's not that all MDMA is made the exact same way, for those that keep thinking that. And I'm sure even back in the 90's and early 00's there was MDMA that just didn't feel right due to synthetic route chosen and purity of end product.

I like your guys ideas of comparing experience reports though.  I've done this before when examining the differences between MDA of the olden days and MDA today.  Which firvthose that aren't aware has changed as well.  There's a reason people used to think MDA lasted 12+ hours and it's cuz there was a time when it did.  Nowadays there's batches that will last 3hours tops! Looking at the isomers of MDA this seems to match perfectly with their different profiles and it's possible the MDA back then was lab ordered legal R-MDA.  Long tangent but yes I think this could be good in adding to our monster pile of evidence.

If you guys have noticed the naysayers have pretty much left the building.  The evidence has gotten to a point where arguing is pointless, drug chemistry itself may be changed by this discussion as it blows away the idea that "said drug is said drug."

And one more thing.  I think we can assume that safrole to MDP2P via a benzoquinone wacker or oxone, then al/hg reduction.  Is probably our best bet in terms of labeling a synthetic route that will most likely give us the desired MDMA product with all the empathy and love.

-GC


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## anon65535

I used to have a little bit of MDMA that was via the methylamine route. Can confirm it was very good but I was also doing a lot of drugs at the time and I only did it once before giving it away because I only had like a gram of it and I was skeptical of it because it was produced with an aluminum amalgam and I was afraid of mercury contamination. I knew it was the methylamine route because it had that fishy smell. It's kind of unmistakable.  This was produced in canada.

None of the stuff I have now appears to be produced via methylamine. I do have a batch which I cleaned up (it was pretty brown and was crystallized too quickly so it was opaque) which is interesting. The cleaned product was off white, to be expected. The leftover was interesting because it was dark as I expected but the smell is what's off putting. The unwashed batch has a smell but I'm hesitant to call it a safrole smell, it has a slightly sharper smell than the root beery smell. It's just not as sweet. The leftover stuff has the same kind of smell, so I did wash that out. I don't know what to make of it. I'm gonna give it a test in a few weeks when I have some time off.

I'm still not convinced of the unbalanced isomer theory but I'm not sure what to make of any of it.

The methylamine stuff was off white, wasn't crystallized, it was how it looks after you acetone wash MDMA.


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## PinkWalrus

I haven?t had it since a year and a half ago while over seas... it was fantastic I haven?t been able find it in the states at all.. it?s depressing honestly. Especially now where I feel like I need a spiritual healing or transformation.. I have tried to apply for clinical trials but no response or answer the phones. After going through many treatments for MDD and PTSD and a cabinet of meds I saw some hope. I read many testimonials of other vets that undergone the therapy and I feel like it could help me. But I dream.. desperation is terrible.


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## SympatheticMD

I tried to look into the FDA studies they are doing for PTSD treatment.  I raced over it pretty quickly - they referred to several previous studies, some in Israel and others in Switzerland.  I was trying to see if they would document how their MDMA was made...just out of curiosity.  I'm hoping they've looked into the distinction we are describing.  But when the FDA is involved, I get cynical.  In any case, at one time people in this thread were discussing the importance of racemic vs non-racemic ratios.  Whatever they are studying in this second round at the FDA has both enantiomers at a specified ratio, and they use some high performance liquid chromatography to assess purity.  I wonder if whatever technique they are using to assess purity and/or whatever technique they are using for synthesis is insuring they are studying the MDMA of the "good old days"  I certainly hope so

Here is a link for the FDA study - and a group that is trying to legalize other drugs as well for medical use:  http://www.maps.org/research/mdma

PinkWalrus - have you tried this group for clinical trials?


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## indigoaura

SympatheticMD, does it say anywhere what the specific enantiomer ratio is that they are studying? If it is not 50/50 that would be very interesting.


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## SympatheticMD

G_Chem I just read one of your old posts where you described your classic role.  Was this recent or old?  I had so many of the same things back in 1988 (jesus).  The come-on varied with the people in the group.  I used to attribute this to each person's anxiety, but maybe it was metabolism.  Then it would hit so hard that ... it wasn't scary, but you knew you needed to stay in the house with a friend who was trying to help.  There was a lot of tension that I can't really relate to anything else.  Just overwhelming.  Inevitably someone said maybe I should walk it off.  And I inevitably stayed on the couch (back rubs or hair tickles were not even good at this stage).  And then, for me it was maybe 20 mins, they whole body let go into this most wonderful state of air-filled body bliss.  I don't remember dancing so much - that would take a few hours down the line, and we usually preferred to stick to small groups and rub each other and chew gum and drink orange juice and say how much we loved each other.  Even if we had just met.  Does anyone else remember the orange juice?  Skipping or walking outside was great fun, and riding a bike was super cool if your eyes could take it.  Swinging - oh the best.  
I too was like a mother hen, making sure everyone had what they needed.  Or if maybe I could play with their hair.  And yes, a bathtub was good, but you had to watch the loose-goose body so it wouldn't slip under and drown.  
I still have an orange juice lid I fell in love with 30 years ago.  it's right over there in my closet.  
We never really studied pupils - just noticed they were huge and made it harder to see sometimes.   And yeah, there was some eye giggling that I always kind of wanted to leave with the teeth chattering.  
And I agree also about the next day.  Nice afterglows, good time to see a movie and feel all mushy about a character you might relate to.

indigoaura - they didn't specify the exact ratio.  I think I was reading the Boulder test protocol for that one, but they have other tests and protocols you can see.  I doubt they will ever specify ingredients.  As of now, all I found is that they prove they have 99% pure MDMA via gas chromatography.   I hope their machines include the fancier ones that someone else was describing on this thread.


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## G_Chem

Regarding MDMA used in trials.  This is without a doubt racemic product and if it wasn't you'd be hearing about it as that's kind of out there yet for the types of trials going on with MDMA right now.  I doubt we'd see separate isomers being used in research until the racemic was essentially an established and accepted medicine.

And that description I gave is for MDMA from when I first started in 2005 until present day.  For me the product and experience has roughly stayed the same (generally speaking, all batches are different but only a couple have I come across in all my years that were undesirable), but again I believe I'm an outlier based on where I live and who I know.  When people take MDMA I obtain I always hear the same thing "this is the best stuff I've ever taken!"  My few run ins with Dutch product haven't been all that impressive.

I've gotten mad crushes on people that I just met.  One recent batch I grabbed caused a random girl to tell me wholeheartedly I was her soulmate after approximately 4-5 sentences.  The good good is out there, it just takes some finding.  You've gotta be in the right scene, your not gonna likely find it by going down to a club or some major event/festival.  You gotta get down to the roots, only there will you find what you seek.

And finally, thank you for sharing that anon.  How sure were you of its origins? Methylamine def smells fishy as fuck.  Also regarding the brown product you bought.  It sounds like MDP2P might have been the contaminant.  It smells similar to safrole but with more of a "spice" smell.

-GC


----------



## SympatheticMD

Good point about the racemic being the first to be studied.  And then if it works, they can quadruple the charge for the pure form.  I tried to see what pharmaceutical group was making it - just to see if this strange hobby of mine could somehow translate into making money.  So far, the two studies I read only named a pharm company in Switzerland.  I'm not sure these kinds of things actually make any money anyway.  I DO know that a vial of ketamine is like $5 dollars, and yet they charge thousands to treat people for depression at these new Ketamine centers.  

As for finding the good good, I'm a 47 year old blonde doctor with a kid, so I'm not exactly hooked into a scene.  In fact, people are frequently suspicious of me, which I find hilarious and an example of a terrible read on a person.  But I'll look around.  All these stories bring it back.  Maybe that's why the stuff works medically.  

Wish I would have enjoyed chemistry a little bit more, but I found human interaction more intriguing than chemical interaction (although if you want to get deep, it's all the same).  

One of my "soul mates" was named Charlie.  I still have the sweater he lent me in 1992.  I wonder how crazy he would think I was if I could actually recognize him on the street and said hello?


----------



## G_Chem

Hahaha the funny thing is he'd probably remember you and be like "oh hey there soulmate long time no see!"  Something about MDMA where those connections and moments seem to stick with us more than any other drug.  It's one of the many reasons I love it so..

Ahh understandable.. I experience the same thing just nowhere near as extreme.  I've had people think they know what I'm like and who I am, only to have to "correct" them.  It's sad cuz I thought MDMA was supposed to reveal to us that what we see on the outside isn't what's on the inside.. Maybe that's just more evidence of the change in MDMA as I live by the old school rules of PLUR and acceptance of everyone.

There is the dark web too MD 

And yes once MDMA is legal expect to pay thousands for a dosage that used to cost 10$.

-GC


----------



## SympatheticMD

Apparently the dark web was started by a guy in high school.  The same high school my son will be attending in a few years.  Nail biting time!  I'm going with the theory that reckless kids raise straight good kids who raise reckless kids... and the punishment goes on and on.  Just let me keep my delusion and don't post any studies refuting it.  And let's keep each other posted on the pharmaceutical company watch for the legalization thing.  I never heard back from PinkWalrus, but I hope he uses my link to maybe get in the studies.  I've heard that group is truly amazing


----------



## indigoaura

> There is the dark web too MD



And, the DW is also littered with Dutch product that is likely inferior. If I knew what was real and what wasn't on the DW, I would be way more likely to give it a go.


----------



## indigoaura

> Skipping or walking outside was great fun, and riding a bike was super cool if your eyes could take it. Swinging - oh the best.



During my early years of participation, I lived near my parents. My partner and I would sneak into their yard to jump on the giant trampoline and use the tire swing in the middle of the night. It was like the best moments of childhood and the promise of adulthood, all rolled into this single, dewdrop moment.


----------



## PinkWalrus

SympatheticMD said:


> I tried to look into the FDA studies they are doing for PTSD treatment.  I raced over it pretty quickly - they referred to several previous studies, some in Israel and others in Switzerland.  I was trying to see if they would document how their MDMA was made...just out of curiosity.  I'm hoping they've looked into the distinction we are describing.  But when the FDA is involved, I get cynical.  In any case, at one time people in this thread were discussing the importance of racemic vs non-racemic ratios.  Whatever they are studying in this second round at the FDA has both enantiomers at a specified ratio, and they use some high performance liquid chromatography to assess purity.  I wonder if whatever technique they are using to assess purity and/or whatever technique they are using for synthesis is insuring they are studying the MDMA of the "good old days"  I certainly hope so
> 
> Here is a link for the FDA study - and a group that is trying to legalize other drugs as well for medical use:  http://www.maps.org/research/mdma
> 
> PinkWalrus - have you tried this group for clinical trials?



I have emailed and called all the ones recruiting on their main site, and clinical trials.gov because I thought maybe the legal and therapy guided way would be more beneficial, then trying to buy on the street and self medicating. However where I live there is no street to get mdma. Iv started to feel like it doesn?t exist in my world anymore lol. I know that I am sick of my cabinet of meds that keep me right below the surface. Sometimes it would be nice to have a kickstart into that rush of love and empathy and egoless mind set. Maybe one day, hopefully.


----------



## PinkWalrus

I tried to do the dark web but literally the whole thing confuses me, with the bitcoin idk maybe I?m just too stupid. I wish I had that knowledge. I need to find a DW teacher no matter the internet guides I read I feel like I am reading the matrix.


----------



## SympatheticMD

PinkWalrus

I'm sorry that you're having trouble getting into the trials.  Your history as a vet would really help you, I would think.  Although the MDMA trials may be focusing more on women???? I don't know why I think that.

You could also look into Ketamine treatments for depression and PTSD.  There are lots of clinics popping up everywhere, and a number of them speficially cater to vets (and perhaps offer them discounts or participation in dosage trials within their own clinics.  It is supposed to be very effective for both depression and PTSD.  Good luck!  And stay away from the Dark Web or whatever it is unless you are savvy about computer things.  That entire  place sounds like a virtual version of a very dark alley in the Bronx.  But I haven't ever seen it because I'm too computer illiterate to get it to work.  Also, if you want to try these things as actual medical treatment for mental health, it is honestly best to do it under a doctor's care, especially if you have a history of substance abuse.  It can be hard if not impossible to distinguish what is medication and what is feeding an addiction. 
I also want to make it clear that I am not preaching, I have been in these places myself.  So I can empathize with you


----------



## Le Junk

SympatheticMD said:


> G_Chem I just read one of your old posts where you described your classic role.  Was this recent or old?  I had so many of the same things back in 1988 (jesus).  The come-on varied with the people in the group.  I used to attribute this to each person's anxiety, but maybe it was metabolism.  Then it would hit so hard that ... it wasn't scary, but you knew you needed to stay in the house with a friend who was trying to help.  There was a lot of tension that I can't really relate to anything else.  Just overwhelming.  Inevitably someone said maybe I should walk it off.  And I inevitably stayed on the couch (back rubs or hair tickles were not even good at this stage).  And then, for me it was maybe 20 mins, they whole body let go into this most wonderful state of air-filled body bliss.  I don't remember dancing so much - that would take a few hours down the line, and we usually preferred to stick to small groups and rub each other and chew gum and drink orange juice and say how much we loved each other.  Even if we had just met.  Does anyone else remember the orange juice?  Skipping or walking outside was great fun, and riding a bike was super cool if your eyes could take it.  Swinging - oh the best.
> I too was like a mother hen, making sure everyone had what they needed.  Or if maybe I could play with their hair.  And yes, a bathtub was good, but you had to watch the loose-goose body so it wouldn't slip under and drown.
> I still have an orange juice lid I fell in love with 30 years ago.  it's right over there in my closet.
> We never really studied pupils - just noticed they were huge and made it harder to see sometimes.   And yeah, there was some eye giggling that I always kind of wanted to leave with the teeth chattering.
> And I agree also about the next day.  Nice afterglows, good time to see a movie and feel all mushy about a character you might relate to.
> 
> indigoaura - they didn't specify the exact ratio.  I think I was reading the Boulder test protocol for that one, but they have other tests and protocols you can see.  I doubt they will ever specify ingredients.  As of now, all I found is that they prove they have 99% pure MDMA via gas chromatography.   I hope their machines include the fancier ones that someone else was describing on this thread.



Just reading your description of old school ecstasy took me right back there with you MD.  Spot on description my friend.  And of course I remember the orange juice!  It was all about the fruity flavors.  They tasted incredible!  I also remember the high being very loud.  Just sitting with my girlfriend as we started taking off the high was very noisy.  It was like being on a roller coaster.  At times I would feel sober and things would get quiet for a second and Id think it was all over and then within seconds BAM!! my eyes would be shaking all over the place and Id be right back on the roller coaster again.  I also felt like I was walking on a cloud at times.  Like I couldnt touch the ground.  Did you ever get that?  I also remember always needing someone to be with me when we started feeling it.  I rememeber others saying things like please dont leave me okay.  I get absolutely non of these feelings on todays crap.  Oh I lament.


----------



## indigoaura

> I also remember the high being very loud.



Now that you mention it, I recall that too. I remember how incredibly overwhelming and loud a public bathroom would be as I was coming up. If I was at a concert or rave or whatever, all of a sudden I was just overwhelmed with the sounds. Every. Single. Little. Tiny. Sound. Really, all senses were heightened. I noticed how it felt to breathe, how air felt on my arms, how water tasted sweet. And, of course, you are right. None of that happens now.


----------



## indigoaura

Considering how much serotonin is in the digestive system, is it remotely possible that the new product is not being absorbed in the right part of the digestive system?


----------



## Le Junk

indigoaura said:


> Considering how much serotonin is in the digestive system, is it remotely possible that the new product is not being absorbed in the right part of the digestive system?



Possibly.  Not my area of study so I cant elaborate on that.  But quite possible Im sure.  Its just so wrong and so far off nowadays from the old school stuff.  Could be something simple or something much more complex.  But I can tell you this, all of the stuff Ive seen nowadays is exactly the same high.  Very consistent and very awful.  I feel bad for new users.  They may never experience the real thing.


----------



## indigoaura

I feel bad for new users too. So many reports of people only taking a small amount and ending up with brain zaps and horrible, long-lasting, after effects. This was never the case before. I could eat a lot of pills, and I may feel miserable on Tuesday emotionally, maybe a little erratic mood wise, but NEVER had physical side effects that lasted for weeks. Clearly something different is happening in a really bad way.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> I feel bad for new users too. So many reports of people only taking a small amount and ending up with brain zaps and horrible, long-lasting, after effects. This was never the case before.


Did you consider that this can be a deliberate strategy of the War on Drugs.

The Alcohol&Tobacco Lobby could not discourage new users from falling in love with MDMA for 30 years, but this new method seems to be working...


----------



## indigoaura

> Did you consider that this can be a deliberate strategy of the War on Drugs.



Yes, absolutely. Makes total sense that way.


----------



## SympatheticMD

Le Junk said:


> Just reading your description of old school ecstasy took me right back there with you MD.  Spot on description my friend.  And of course I remember the orange juice!  It was all about the fruity flavors.  They tasted incredible!  I also remember the high being very loud.  Just sitting with my girlfriend as we started taking off the high was very noisy.  It was like being on a roller coaster.  At times I would feel sober and things would get quiet for a second and Id think it was all over and then within seconds BAM!! my eyes would be shaking all over the place and Id be right back on the roller coaster again.  I also felt like I was walking on a cloud at times.  Like I couldnt touch the ground.  Did you ever get that?  I also remember always needing someone to be with me when we started feeling it.  I rememeber others saying things like please dont leave me okay.  I get absolutely non of these feelings on todays crap.  Oh I lament.



Yeah I remember those things.  It seems crazy to me that I forgot the details (but I guess I was under the influence at the time).  I never had rollercoaster at the beginning - it was oh shit, here it comes, maybe if I try to breath it won't be so dramatic - and then my body went into a state of light and airy bliss that I think I've never felt any other way.  The orange juice was always due to the myth that it helped it last longer.  I looked it up, and it can act as a cofactor in some way.  And the walking on the cloud - even better biking on a cloud, but had to be careful to stick to straight streets because your vision was affected.  And god forbid someone get up and go to another room to get water...everyone would insist that the person come back soon, then feel bady that they were alone, and then one person (usually me) would go check on them.  Must stay in the group!


----------



## LucidSDreamr

SympatheticMD said:


> indigoaura - they didn't specify the exact ratio.  I think I was reading the Boulder test protocol for that one, but they have other tests and protocols you can see.  I doubt they will ever specify ingredients.  As of now, all I found is that they prove they have 99% pure MDMA via gas chromatography.   I hope their machines include the fancier ones that someone else was describing on this thread.



I'd be curious to look at the testing protocols. I think we don't keep in mind that the testing being done is only looking for "known drugs, cuts contaminants or by products"  They do not look for things they don't know exist therefore don't see them.  Even if they did see peaks corresponding to unknowns substances, they would never undertake an investigation requiring many man-hours and probably analytical instruments they don't have.

Thus these GCMS or LCMS labs aren't really looking at the big picture and when they quote purities of a substance I would love to see the full lab protocol/instrument settings that they use if this information is public. 

I worked in this GCMS drug testing/drug analysis industry for two years before leaving it, and I can tell you that these labs are not equipped both instrument wise and personel wise to make such definitive statements with regards to purity and contaminants


----------



## indigoaura

So...what can we do?

I'm serious.

All of the traditional things that you could do to safeguard yourself seem to no longer work. Testing kits won't work. Sending it to a lab won't work. How in the world do you keep yourself safe? How do you find MDMA that is actually MDMA?

I just spent awhile on another forum reading some new user comments, and it is crazy how many people are out there who are NEW USERS who say MDMA is NOT euphoric. Obviously, there is a legitimate issue here. There are even people arguing how it is different every time and has a wide range of results. That was never my experience. If anything, it was the one reliable thing that always felt good and created a good time, no matter what was going on or how south everything went. 

One time, my friends and I were at an amusement park. We all took MDMA. It started to rain hardcore and the amusement park flooded. We were all wandering around in knee deep water, laughing and loving every minute until we were kicked out. Then we huddled in a car, having an awesome time. Nobody cared that we couldn't ride roller coasters. Nobody cared that we were squished in a car surrounded by floodwaters. The MDMA made the moment great.

So, where do we find _that_ MDMA? How do we differentiate? There has to be some way to proceed with a plan.


----------



## slowsloth

I also was an avid Xsty user for years. I remember when it came it pill form and it was usually laced with other drugs ranging from meth to heroin based X. But when I moved up north I could not find "X" anymore. All they had here was MDMA which is supposed to the pure form which is why is comes in the crystalized form. It is commonly known as Molly. It still works but I agree the feeling is quire different, especially the next day. I an not sure if I prefered the pills over Molly.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

indigoaura said:


> So...what can we do?
> 
> I'm serious.
> 
> All of the traditional things that you could do to safeguard yourself seem to no longer work. Testing kits won't work. Sending it to a lab won't work. How in the world do you keep yourself safe? How do you find MDMA that is actually MDMA?
> 
> I just spent awhile on another forum reading some new user comments, and it is crazy how many people are out there who are NEW USERS who say MDMA is NOT euphoric. Obviously, there is a legitimate issue here. There are even people arguing how it is different every time and has a wide range of results. That was never my experience. If anything, it was the one reliable thing that always felt good and created a good time, no matter what was going on or how south everything went.
> 
> One time, my friends and I were at an amusement park. We all took MDMA. It started to rain hardcore and the amusement park flooded. We were all wandering around in knee deep water, laughing and loving every minute until we were kicked out. Then we huddled in a car, having an awesome time. Nobody cared that we couldn't ride roller coasters. Nobody cared that we were squished in a car surrounded by floodwaters. The MDMA made the moment great.
> 
> So, where do we find _that_ MDMA? How do we differentiate? There has to be some way to proceed with a plan.




we want a safe solution to felony criminals acts. Until the laws change nothing will change, as recreational drug users aren't the type to pony up and fund massive illegal research projects and changes in manufacturing in clandestine labs in order to have better drugs.

I say buy RCs ala 6apb or 5apb. drop acid. Still pretty good in my opinion, better than mdma in some ways.  I've personally never gotten bad mdma or pressed pills other than stuff that was completely bunk.


----------



## indigoaura

> I remember when it came it pill form and it was usually laced with other drugs ranging from meth to heroin based X.



This is misinformation. Ecstasy never contained heroin, and years of lab test results will support this. There is no such thing as heroin based ecstasy. The pills I used to get were sent in to a lab and they were MDMA, yet they felt totally different than the MDMA that is currently accessible. Something has changed.

And LucidSDreamer, sorry, but I just don't believe that there is nothing to do but stand around and twiddle our thumbs and wait for it to maybe be legal one day. We are smart people. There has to be a way to approach it to figure it out.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

indigoaura said:


> This is misinformation. Ecstasy never contained heroin, and years of lab test results will support this. There is no such thing as heroin based ecstasy. The pills I used to get were sent in to a lab and they were MDMA, yet they felt totally different than the MDMA that is currently accessible. Something has changed.
> 
> And LucidSDreamer, sorry, but I just don't believe that there is nothing to do but stand around and twiddle our thumbs and wait for it to maybe be legal one day. We are smart people. There has to be a way to approach it to figure it out.



I was surprised to hear (on a recent episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopia I think it was) that there was in fact an xtc pill analyzed which contained heroin and not mdma. I believe this was during the time period in the 90s.


----------



## pofacedhoe

UK

still got badass md

and by god is it euphoric and reliably so BUT at this age the novelty has worn off. I know what it will do, i Know how i will feel and its the same every time, one big orgasmic yawn


----------



## indigoaura

> I was surprised to hear (on a recent episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopia I think it was) that there was in fact an xtc pill analyzed which contained heroin and not mdma. I believe this was during the time period in the 90s.



One anomaly is a lot different than EVERY pill being either cocaine or heroin "based." I remember arguing with people about this way back. They were convinced that to make ecstasy, you started with either cocaine or heroin. SMH.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

I prefer my MDMA to be synthed from heroin ...it makes for a great high


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> So...what can we do?
> 
> I'm serious.
> 
> All of the traditional things that you could do to safeguard yourself seem to no longer work. Testing kits won't work. Sending it to a lab won't work. How in the world do you keep yourself safe? How do you find MDMA that is actually MDMA?


We must discover the actual chemical difference and develop an inexpensive test kit capable of spotting this difference. 
IMO once users can distinguish between the bad "MDMA" and good one, the market will correct itself naturally.
For example, if the difference is in the enantiomer ratio then an addition of a chiral acid (e.g. a L-Tartaric acid) to the reagent test kit might enable spotting the difference.

But in order to develop such test kit, first I would need to test many bad vs. good "MDMA" samples and that is problematic because publishing my address to have such samples sent would probably land me in jail.  Also my spectrometer is not able to distinguish enantiomers and an upgrade would cost several tens of kUSD.  

You don't think it would be possible to crowdfund it, do you?  See what LucidSDreamr wrote:



LucidSDreamr said:


> ...as recreational drug users aren't the type  to pony up and fund massive illegal research projects and changes in  manufacturing in clandestine labs in order to have better drugs.



Before that happens, the lack of Mydriasis in the users of bad "MDMA" is your best indicator.
Look for some Guinea pigs...


----------



## indigoaura

Glubrahnum, I think it could totally be crowdfunded. Recreational drug users who recall what MDMA was like in the 90s are not kids. They are professionals with paychecks. This is a conversation that has been going on in my social circle for years. The question is not whether it could be crowdfunded, the question is whether it would be legal to crowdfund for such a purpose.

More evidence:
Ran into an old acquaintance this weekend. He is not a regular user of MDMA, but recently had tried some of the same MDMA that I have access to. Totally unprompted by me, he says "Do you know anywhere to get the old stuff?" I asked him what he meant. He said, "Well, this stuff gives the jaw movement but not the warmth, not the empathy." He then commented on the lack of a depressed comedown. 

So, in other words, same observations I had without any suggestion by me at all.

I still wonder about approaching existing harm reduction groups with this theory and seeing if we can find a lab that could legally test and look for additional factors. MAPS is pretty tied up with their medical research, but is there anyone else who would have an interest in something like this?


----------



## MrRoot

In my opinion taking MDMA now doesn’t feel like what it did when I started to roll in 2006 but I guess it is just that nostalgy and getting bored to MDMA although I did feel something like those first times when I used MDMA last spring after a abstaining from it for multiple years. Now after using MDMA for every few months it feels kind of blaah again.

This same has happened with opiates for me. The first few nods were great but I haven’t ever achieved those again although I have tried with increased dosages and boosting the nod with other chemicals.


----------



## indigoaura

It is not getting bored with MDMA, because there are new users who are not experiencing euphoria or eye dilation, even at high doses. That is not boredom or nostalgia, that is a measurable difference in effect.


----------



## Le Junk

indigoaura said:


> I still wonder about approaching existing harm reduction groups with this theory and seeing if we can find a lab that could legally test and look for additional factors. MAPS is pretty tied up with their medical research, but is there anyone else who would have an interest in something like this?



Yes, I would definitely have interest in this.  It's so silly to have arguments with people who talk nostalgia.  All else aside, and that's a ton of stuff, but the pupils don't lie.  Set aside the things that people could legitimately argue come from nostalgia and throw the pupil thing in.  The argument is over.  No pupil dilation and you've got junk MDMA my friend.  End of story.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

indigoaura said:


> Glubrahnum, I think it could totally be crowdfunded. Recreational drug users who recall what MDMA was like in the 90s are not kids. They are professionals with paychecks. This is a conversation that has been going on in my social circle for years. The question is not whether it could be crowdfunded, the question is whether it would be legal to crowdfund for such a purpose.
> 
> More evidence:
> Ran into an old acquaintance this weekend. He is not a regular user of MDMA, but recently had tried some of the same MDMA that I have access to. Totally unprompted by me, he says "Do you know anywhere to get the old stuff?" I asked him what he meant. He said, "Well, this stuff gives the jaw movement but not the warmth, not the empathy." He then commented on the lack of a depressed comedown.
> 
> So, in other words, same observations I had without any suggestion by me at all.
> 
> I still wonder about approaching existing harm reduction groups with this theory and seeing if we can find a lab that could legally test and look for additional factors. MAPS is pretty tied up with their medical research, but is there anyone else who would have an interest in something like this?



Doing any research on MDMA would cost way more to do and take way longer to get approval (years) due to legality...which it would never get because ppl not getting high is not a reason for the DEA to grant a license to research a schedule I drug.

We are talking at least 100k probably more.

This is better left to ppl working in academic labs that wouldn't mind doing it anonymously on the side of thier normal research


----------



## G_Chem

I can't believe people would ever say MDMA isn't euphoric..  I'll agree there can be variance based on set and setting but that is typically a rare event to have a not so great experience and even rolls where I've gotten super sick (I have a fucked up stomach and on occasion get really sick) I still kind of enjoy it.

As Glubra said once we discover the issue we can then employ the right method of detection for determining which is which.  I've kinda taken a bit of a hiatus but just made a pretty decent discovery/connection last few days.

I'm now completely certain in my theory that early to mid 90's ecstasy and the different feeling it induced was due to the fact it was produced via leuckart.  I've mentioned this a few times but before it was a loosely based theory, now it's got a lot to substantiate it.

Real quick recap, leuckart MDMA was typically rather impure compared to other routes.  The impurities found are known to be psychoactive and there's even a research study to back that up.

Essentially I took a look back at the paper that sparked this theory and noticed they didn't just test one sample, they tested MANY samples and only showed the chromo of one sample.  I confused the wording but they say explicitly at this time most samples were produced in this fashion.  The analysis of the tablet showed both DMMDA and formyl-mdma among other impurities both of which are likely psychoactive.

Next I began to think about it.  When MDMA was made illegal and then popularized in the late 80's early 90's who do you think were the guys to pick up on the demand? The people already synthesizing illegal drugs, and even better a close relative.  Amphetamine cooks.  All they had to do was alter their synthesis slightly to produced MDMA.  Leuckart was at least then the main route of production for amp.

It wasn't until the later 90's that the leuckart was moved to the side for higher yielding "cleaner" MDMA routes.  Anytime a question is ever asked about it people will reply "why when a AL/HG reduction is so much easier and higher yielding??"  Well maybe we now see a reason to use this method.

The final nail in the coffin is located in the leuckart info found in rhodium I believe and elsewhere.  In there is a post from someone obviously involved with the mdma production of days old.  He speaks broke English but tells of how they used to produce it large scale.  The route uses 150L of MD-P2P!

To give you perspective on how much that is.  That amount when run through a leuckart would yield roughly 1 million standard ecstasy tablets of the day..  These dudes were synthing a million doses of MDMA in a sitting..  I can't even begin to imagine how much money they made..

They were likely obtaining the ketone via chemical supply in the barrel full.

While can say fairly certainly about that era, I still can't say on this one.

It appears we've gone through a few different phases with MDMA since it's been popularized.  Late 80's to early mid 90's.  Lates 90's to late 00's.  And pretty much 2010 to present.  It seems these times get constantly referenced aswhen there were obvious changes in the experience given. These times also correlate with two rather large changes in the way these drugs are synthesized.

As of right now I guess all we can do is keep trying to find ways to differentiate via any means between good and bad product and to keep each other informed on our findings.  For instance you do find a batch of good quality MDMA, what does it look like, what does it smell like, what were the exact reagent reactions, if possible what did a testing center find, what qualitative effects there were, etc.  Same can be said for the shitty stuff too.

I'm back to thinking this is probably an impurity issue more than anything.  Looking at a lot of photos of product from elsewhere and I'm disgusted with what I see passed off as "shards" these days.  Opaque brown clumps with absolutely no crystalline formation to them, god only knows what's in that.  I will say color isn't a huge deal but opaque-ness and zero crystals means a decent amount of garbage.

Guess we continue on trying to find the answer.  Any mdma chemists reading this start cooking leuckart MDMA lol.

-GC


----------



## Holly.3

Who remembers the pink Playboy bunny pills from the mid-2000s? Any thoughts?


----------



## IamaBonobo

Can labs like Energy Control and Ecstasy Data detect the presence of DMMDA and formyl-mdma? I imagine if they would be able to as long as they had a good reference standard for those materials.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

∆ sure as long as they build it into thier method it would be easy thing to do. Good luck getting them to do so if they don't currently though.


----------



## downerprimadonna

iv been in your shoes. but when it comes down to the issue...
You are clearly looking in the wrong places. I have just recently got a hold of 94% pure MDMA and had non stop body orgasms for atleast 3 hours straight! Unwillingly.  It was amazing.
I honestly recommend searching for vendors out of your reach...
If there's a will there's a way.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea getting testing centers to actually look for these impurities would be a hassle indeed.  Imagine if someone came into your work and asked you to go way above and beyond at your job when your already slammed, and for zero extra money..  You'd think to yourself "fuck off" and continue on all the same.  Sadly that's likely what they'll do too.

I should note I don't think leuckart MDMA is the only good MDMA ever made.  I do think there are other routes which produce great product too just different from one another.

It's my belief that as I said above we are looking at 3 main eras of MDMA, and each one is unique in its own way.

Late 80's/Early 90's.  Leuckart.  Longer lasting, much more stimulating experience.  Stronger dosage wise as well.  While many talk of this being the best it also came with a price of feeling haggard for days after.

Late 90's/Late 00's.  Leuckart is pushed aside in favor of other reactions, while many of them produce good product some do not.  The synthesis of MDMA went from a few large producers to many smaller chemists thanks to the advent of the internet.  The good MDMA found during this period is likely as close to pure, shulgin-esque as it gets in terms of feel and what was described in PIHKAL and elsewhere.  Again this is just a generalization, certain areas/connections got better or worse product based on the chemist that it originated from.

2010 and on..  This is when PMK and safrole was replaced with PMK glycidate as the main precursor for large scale production.  The production market started to sway back towards larger scale operations like in the 90's.  Dutch super labs were born but unfortunately despite what sounds to be a glorious defeat of the war on drugs, it seems much of this new product is not up to par from that of the past.  This era is somewhat of an amalgam of the prior two in that both small and large scale chemists run the market.  It's also this reason many (such as myself) still stumble upon good product.  The amount of routes to MDxx these days is obviously at its highest and with it comes variance from batch to batch, and dealer to dealer.

This is obviously a quick run down with much missing but gives a general idea..  Please remember these are just generalizations, in all eras your likely to find MDMA from many synthetic routes it's just some have been more popular than others depending on time and region.

My guess is, in regards to impurities and GCMS, is that unless they are there in pretty significant amounts the lab won't care to publish the findings.  Is this correct lucid?

All that said the chances of stumbling upon leuckart synthesized MDMA is probably like winning the lottery.  I doubt many have tried it who didn't take MDMA before 95.

-GC


----------



## LucidSDreamr

∆ forgive me if u mentioned earlier...but can you connect how these good or bad routes produce MDMA in temrs of the three issues we believe are structurally to blame (ee, polymorphs or isobars)


----------



## indigoaura

I will add this information because it may be relevant. I used MDMA for the first time in 2000. Encountered my reliable vendor probably around 2001. What he told me at that time was that the product was all coming in through Asian organized crime. Later, there was a huge bust in the area that involved many restaurants. The drugs were being hidden inside fish and sent to the restaurants. It was all over the news at the time. So, I do not think that the product I was using was being locally produced. I don't know if that makes any difference in regards to how it was being synthesized.


----------



## G_Chem

Well right now the best theory I can think of still lies with impurities.  We do now after discussion and research see variations in polymorphs but we've yet to find any rhyme or reason to them other than certain crystallization methods which still may or may not produce the desired polymorph.

For leuckart, it was a product that was unique in its impurities.  Not only was the product generated impure, but the impurities have been proven to be psychoactive.  One study only looked at a few more obscure ones but what they found was interesting.  The two impurities they found with significant activity were both from leuckart and one was the n-formyl analog of the other.  This is significant because it tells us formyl-MDMA is likely psychoactive as well.

We aren't sure how much formyl-MDMA was in the pills of the early to mid 90's, but one study on PMA (or was it PMMA?) from leuckart found roughly 20% was the formyl analog.  So theoretically there was likely a good amount of formyl-MDMA in the pills of the late 90's

As time went on smaller chemists took over.  And indigo I do appreciate your post as it further solidified my statement.  That bust may seem big but in the grand scheme of things still small related to the production of the early 90's.  Like I said these guys back then were cooking a million doses in a sitting, probably more than that lab produced ever.  And likely those guys were only supplying your city or state, not the world.

It was at the late 90's early 2000's where everyone was getting in on the action and thanks to the internet people were able to find good cleans way to synth.  I would say the second era had good product close to the way shulgin describes it (i.e. Shulgin didn't mention your jaw would hang off your face or grind your teeth to nubs..).  This era also marked the beginning of chemists producing crap tho as well.  As we see the piperanol route was taking over in china by the mid 00's and as we kindly learned from indigo it seems that route produces mdp2p-ol which likely negates the effect while also causing sickening symptoms.

Actually indigo this makes even more sense you got thru Asian networks as your change in product around 2005 correlates perfectly with the change towards piperanol in Asia around that time.

Again each route is unique and each area is as well so hard to generalize too much beyond 2000 or so.

And finally I'm unsure yet of the problems associated with the glycidate produced MDMA.  Sadly that remains a mystery but we'll find the answer if we dig.

For now I'm kind of back on the impurity bandwagon as its theory with the most evidence to back it up but I am open to there being other variables either separately or in tandem.  For instance the early 90's could of been due to impurity but these days it could be EE, polymorphs or some other issue.

I'd also like to say when thinking of "good"  MDMA we must realize there is technically more than one route which produces unique but still good product.  Certain batches will still be subjectively good but vary from one another.  With this we must realize comparing our experiences to see who's taken "the good stuff" is in a way not very effective in determining when and where it's been.  As we're finding everyone has a different view of good and for one person that may be gurning til their gums bleed and dancing the night away whereas for another it may be how much love they feel for the world around them.  All subjective which only makes this harder..

Gotta run for now,

-GC


----------



## LucidSDreamr

indigoaura said:


> I will add this information because it may be relevant. I used MDMA for the first time in 2000. Encountered my reliable vendor probably around 2001. What he told me at that time was that the product was all coming in through Asian organized crime. Later, there was a huge bust in the area that involved many restaurants. The drugs were being hidden inside fish and sent to the restaurants. It was all over the news at the time. So, I do not think that the product I was using was being locally produced. I don't know if that makes any difference in regards to how it was being synthesized.



Now that's what I call a sushi roll!


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## indigoaura

Actually, I am pretty sure the stuff I was accessing in the early 2000s was more than just local...here is an article on the bust I mentioned:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/752673/posts

Interestingly, this article does not indicate an Asian source, but rather, Netherlands produced and Israel organized.


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## G_Chem

I never said local but I can promise while that may seem big, it really isnt as big as it appears.  11$ million total over 5 years is a lot but imagine what the guys made back in the early 90's when they synthesized a million doses at a time?  I'd bet they made many more millions than that.  There's a reason Doves were everywhere and in many countries worldwide.  Back then a few pills ruled the world whereas by early 00's there were MANY more chemists, middlemen, dealers, etc which increased the variability of the product out there.

I should rephrase my era rundown though cuz your right there was probably more large scale operations than I give credit.  But keep in mind when I say small I still mean guys that are likely producing large amounts, just nowhere near the scale (in terms of production to chemists producing ratio) of the early 90's.

With that said it's making sense now why you liked the first stuff, it was probably either leuckart or more likely reductive amination via Al/Hg which both routes give what many consider "good" product.  The fact they'd been in it since the late 90's means they likely had connections with chemists who had been around during the age of the mitzis and synthed in that way (again likely mdp2p to MD via al/hg).

It seems likely indigo you grew up on mdp2p to MDMA via Al/Hg, and then when that dealer stopped (which btw most dealers really don't know where it comes from, I've seen this personally) your new guy was supplying MDMA via piperanol to nitrostyrene with a decent amount of impurity which I haven't seen much positive feedback on.  My guess is that actually your second guy was obtaining it via Asian connections based on my research as I said that route was popular around then.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> For Leuckart, it was a product that was unique in its impurities.  Not only was the product generated impure, but the impurities have been proven to be psychoactive.


Which begs the question whether the impure MDMA elicits more desirable subjective effects than pure racemic 3,4-MDMA.



G_Chem said:


> As we see the *piperanol* route was taking over in china by the mid 00's and as we kindly learned from indigo it seems that route produces mdp2p-ol which likely negates the effect while also causing sickening symptoms.
> Actually indigo this makes even more sense you got thru Asian networks as your change in product around 2005 correlates perfectly with the change towards *piperanol* in Asia around that time.


Did you mean "Piperonal" ?


----------



## G_Chem

I did, thank you I always mix up the o and the a on that.

And indeed it does.. I think again that depends on what impurities but from my reading I've seen chemists talk of people preferring brown impure product over the purified.  And even read of people who would do an acetone wash then consume the impurities that were dissolved in the acetone and consume that which was described something along the lines of "hella strong!"  Typically I think the chemists who spoke of this were doing standard for the time benzo wacker to al/hg or maybe some other fairly otc way to synth the ketone.

But then when we look at other routes we may find something like 6-chloro-MDMA which is theorized to not be too friendly on the body.  Pretty sure they found out about that one after an mdma overdose but I'd have to check that again.  Also if safrole makes it through the synthesis it actually produces a substance fairly toxic to the liver, so "aniseed, safrole" smelling product may feel good but that smell is also an indicator of liver toxic byproducts.  Hence I look for that in my product (not that I've seen much difference between stuff that smells and stuff that doesn't in terms of quality) but if it's too strong I'll often pass it up.

With that said, who knows maybe that toxic byproduct is psychoactive too, we just don't know yet.

But Glubra you hit on an excellent point, theoretically MDMA should be at its highest purity ever and I've seen people post analysis which shows product above 99%.  It does beg the question is our problem because it's too pure? Never thought you'd hear people say it but maybe it is the case.  Although the pictures I see of "Dutch crystal" look like fused pieces of shit at times so who knows..  Most people don't know the difference between a crystal and a rock, most MDMA these days is likely fused to make such large appealing pieces but if it's really pure you still see nice crystalline structure here and there.

-GC


----------



## anon65535

The dutch and canadian rocks are either fused which is done by heating to its melting point and then cooled or rocked with MSM (being the less popular option). To anyone that's even remotely knowledgeable of chemistry, you know that you can't get big rocks with racemic product.

I don't know exactly what's going on with this discussion of mongy MDMA, but I've read several threads, even on this forum that have played out and no one gets close to the truth. Biscuit had some good points in another thread and yet I don't remember them.

My feeling is that the product we are getting IS racemic and I say that because all the *known* syntheses are not stereospecific. That means you're getting a racemic product. I guess it's possible with the big labs that they are doing some novel reaction that utilizes an achiral catalyst producing a non-racemic product. That to me is the only thing that may make sense. This discussion of crystallization polymorphs and precursors to me rings false. A precursor is a precursor and once you get to PMK (from glycidate or from safrole->isosafrole) the known reactions are all non-stereospecific. So the big labs would have to be doing some novel synthesis to break this.

This actually should be testable at home. What needs to be done is to take a quantity and isomerize it with d-tartaric acid as per this TEK (http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-structure?p=10894102&viewfull=1#post10894102)

It's not exactly a completely scientific way of doing it because there will be losses, but it'll give you *some* idea.

What are the lab methods to isolate isomers? Someone please enlighten me.


----------



## indigoaura

> Which begs the question whether the impure MDMA elicits more desirable subjective effects than pure racemic 3,4-MDMA.



I am not convinced that impurities are what made "old" MDMA better. I sincerely doubt that the people being treated for PTSD are getting impurities. But, the state you would have to enter in order to address old trauma would need to be a fearless, safe, mental state. Presumably, the pharmaceutical grade MDMA is still magical. I cannot imagine anyone overcoming ingrained fears otherwise.

I also have way more physical side effects from the "sleepy" MDMA. Sure doesn't feel clean when there are headaches, nausea, and dizziness for days afterwards.


----------



## Theko

indigoaura said:


> I am not convinced that impurities are what made "old" MDMA better. I sincerely doubt that the people being treated for PTSD are getting impurities. But, the state you would have to enter in order to address old trauma would need to be a fearless, safe, mental state. Presumably, the pharmaceutical grade MDMA is still magical. I cannot imagine anyone overcoming ingrained fears otherwise.
> 
> I also have way more physical side effects from the "sleepy" MDMA. Sure doesn't feel clean when there are headaches, nausea, and dizziness for days afterwards.



The pharmaceutical grade  MDMA used to treat PTSD is certainly magically at 99.5% pure, I think this is the only video on youtube with a clip of a therapy session,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhhi9H8fNdc&t=98s The amount used for this session was 120mg 
Clear to see the MDMA has the effects you would expect of a high quality product, I think it's amazing the way you can actually see she is emotionally healing, 
talking about her suppressed fears now being out in the open, and dancing and making art.


I would like to know how the pharma grade MDMA is made, as in whether or not they always use the original safrole precursor, I haven't found much info on-line about that, but on the MAPS website it does say The synthesis of MDMA usually begins with the precursor safrole, considering they said usually instead of always I think it suggests that  PMK could be used as the precursor to make pharma grade MDMA as well. If it couldn't be used I think they would have written some information about that on the site and it just isn't there.


----------



## G_Chem

I'd tend to agree with you Indigo I was more playing Devils advocate, I'm fairly certain the MDMA I've known and loved all these years has always been fairly pure and the impure stuff like for you typically gives me physical side effects.

I have to ask anon why you dismiss polymorphism and impurities when I've presented so much information to support the opposite.  We have loads of anecdotal information and some from highly regarded chemists stating different effects from different polymorphs as well as Raman spectroscopy to show indeed MDMA produces more than one polymorph.  For impurities we have studies which both show the presence of impurities in decent amounts as well as one that even shows some of the ones found can be fairly psychoactive.

I agree I believe racemic product or close to it is mainly what people are getting these days, but you confuse me when you state the polymorphism or impurities ring false then switch back to talking about EE.  Your likely right on the EE but you need to realize chemists these days could give a shit about purity, it used to be about purity because it had to better fit into a pill and was sold more a pill to pill basis than weight and appearance.  Now that the market has changed there is more incentive to either leave impurities for extra weight or to better help them fuse these together.  A little excess precursor oil (amongst other things not getting cleaned out) does great to help fuse the mass together.  From what I've seen when typing in Dutch mdma crystal is a lot of times an opaque tan/brown/yellow rock which is quite obviously impure.

I feel I can state it as fact, may not be why Dutch mongy crap exists, but impurities do play a roll in the overall experience.  If you'd like me to link sources for any of the information above I can do so or direct you elsewhere on the site where I may have it posted.

-GC


----------



## LucidSDreamr

anon65535 said:


> The dutch and canadian rocks are either fused which is done by heating to its melting point and then cooled or rocked with MSM (being the less popular option). To anyone that's even remotely knowledgeable of chemistry, you know that you can't get big rocks with racemic product.
> 
> I don't know exactly what's going on with this discussion of mongy MDMA, but I've read several threads, even on this forum that have played out and no one gets close to the truth. Biscuit had some good points in another thread and yet I don't remember them.
> 
> My feeling is that the product we are getting IS racemic and I say that because all the *known* syntheses are not stereospecific. That means you're getting a racemic product. I guess it's possible with the big labs that they are doing some novel reaction that utilizes an achiral catalyst producing a non-racemic product. That to me is the only thing that may make sense. This discussion of crystallization polymorphs and precursors to me rings false. A precursor is a precursor and once you get to PMK (from glycidate or from safrole->isosafrole) the known reactions are all non-stereospecific. So the big labs would have to be doing some novel synthesis to break this.
> 
> This actually should be testable at home. What needs to be done is to take a quantity and isomerize it with d-tartaric acid as per this TEK (http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-structure?p=10894102&viewfull=1#post10894102)
> 
> It's not exactly a completely scientific way of doing it because there will be losses, but it'll give you *some* idea.
> 
> What are the lab methods to isolate isomers? Someone please enlighten me.



When u say a racemate can't create big rocks that isn't true. See wiki entry on racemic mixture -- crystalization


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## anon65535

You can't. You'll get shards that are perhaps a 1-2cm at the absolute biggest but that's it, nothing like the "rocks" that you see. Those are all fused via heating to melting point. It has to do with importation ease.

Back to the case at hand. The reason I discount polymorphs is because it just doesn't seem like a likely reason. All that a polymorph should effect is the melting point temperature, not absorption.  I assume you think that the different polymorphs have different rates of absorption? I mean I guess that's possible, but it doesn't seem likely.

I think what we know for sure is that a non-stereospecific synthesis WILL yield the racemate compound. So unless we get someone in here that has worked at a dutch lab to say "no, we are using a novel synthesis with an unwatched achiral catalyst yielding a non-racemate product" or someone who can analyze it, I'm not sure where to go from here. And I don't want to cut off discussion, I'm just calling it as I see it. I really like the discussion. 

I'd love to see a new reagent be developed to test for the enantiomeric balance of MDMA. It would have to be some combination of tartaric acid and other shit. I wish I were knowledgeable enough to develop it.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

^Different polymorphs absolutely have different rates of absorption. I've seen examples where certain polymorphs of a compound have drastic improvement serum levels obtained. 

This difference in absorption is what makes it possible to patent a polymorph of a drug that is already patented...it happens alot.


----------



## Theko

It's obvious reading posts that people have done far more research than I have into the chemistry and synthesis of MDMA, I do not know as much detail about it.
So some of what I'm saying here could be wrong, and I'm probably repeating things you already know.

When I read about this issue on different forums, most often people say that the new precursor being used instead of safrole is likely the reason why some modern MDMA has diminished effects. The problem I feel with that theory is it could be unlikely, because PMK I think has always been a part of the process of making MDMA.
Just before they used safrole to produced PMK, and now they use pmk glycidate, which I believe is a simpler process than creating it via safrole anyway.

So am I right in thinking there should actually be less chance of impurities in respect of the precursor, because clandestine labs can now effectively begin a stage ahead, 
instead of a stage behind where impurities could occur during the process of obtaining PMK from the safrole route?

What struck me as interesting on the MAPS site is they say the precursor is just the very beginning of the process, and from that starting point there are then several synthetic routes that can be used to reach the final molecule. This made me think if a lab uses PMK-glycidate to produce MDMA and their product has some impurities that diminish the effects of the drug, I wonder if it's far more likely that these impurities will have occurred during the second stage synthetic route that they chose to use, rather than it being due to the PMK conversion. 
But the thing is as far as I know, the synthetic routes used to produce MDMA from PMK haven't changed, and are still the same as back in the 70's.

Maybe it is often simply the case, like G_Chem mentioned that the primary focus of a lot of labs won't be the purity, rather it will be a profit focused attitude instead of a scientific one, 
it's one thing to know a method, and another to control it and oversee it in a scientific fashion, I can imagine many labs being basically like, bish bash bosh, there's the MDMA, shift it and sell it, without *thoroughly* checking the product at the individual stages of it's production.


----------



## G_Chem

Anon, check out this article called...

"Polymorphism:  The phenomenon affecting the performance of drugs."

Google that and you'll find it easily.  It shows a number of drugs which have "better bioavailability," "better GIT absorbtion," "higher therapeutic potential," etc.  While most of these are pharmaceuticals not "get you high" type of drugs it still shows different polymorphs have different effects in the body.

I'd be willing to bet the differences don't end with increased bioavailability and such for drugs which do get you "high."

And yup labs these days need that product on the shelves asap, shit we've got this edm mainstream culture born over the past 7-8yrs which demands more MDMA than ever before.  People hitting multiple day festivals multiple times a year, rolling each night they are there.  No time to distill freebase or even an acetone wash as that's money down the drain.  As long as it's a nice big chunk that tests right on the reagents and isn't horribly dark or black the consumer is typically "happy" (or so they think.)

Well theko in actuality the amination step in the synthesis has seen improvements since way back when, there's some pretty novel routes people like those on the hive have uncovered.  With that said it's likely many still used the tried and true routes.

We must remember though that any impurities at any stage can be brought through to create additional impurities...

We always assume this Chinese PMK glycidate is pure as the driven snow when the Dutch or whoever receive it but I can tell you one thing for sure, Chinese aren't known for their pure drugs.  Last batch of 5-mapb I bought from china was the most impure crap I've ever seen, there was rubber hosing in the bag..  Imagine the conditions if rubber hosing is falling to pieces into the product.

If this PMK glycidate was impure any impurities would likely be brought through to the final product.  Whoever receives this PMK glycidate assumes it's pure and proceeds.  It's a recipe for some unknown impurities and possibly more.

Surprised I just thought of that... Anyone know what kind of impurities might be present in PMK glycidate?

One more thing racemic MDMA can form decent sized crystals but it isn't easy and takes a long time going slow with it.  Typically though most product on the market is fused like described by anon.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> If this PMK glycidate was impure any impurities would likely be brought through to the final product.  Whoever receives this PMK glycidate assumes it's pure and proceeds.  It's a recipe for some unknown impurities and possibly more.
> 
> Surprised I just thought of that... Anyone know what kind of impurities might be present in PMK glycidate?


Nasty stuff:  Glycidol, Glycidamide, Glycidic acid and various prop-2-enoyl compounds which can be aminated to such things as Acrylamide


----------



## G_Chem

Glubra I could kiss you right now..

Something just clicked...  I'll be back later with more as I'm busy at the moment but...

As we can plainly see from the MDMA forums something has clearly changed in terms of long term negative symptoms.  Many of these people after only 1-2 uses!  This huge surge of reports correlates with the increased use of PMK glycidate.

Acrylamide is a known neurotoxin that disrupts normal monoamine levels and has been found to target the serotonin system specifically among others.

This all makes sense now, having acrylamide present even in small amounts would fit the profile for the "LTC" symptoms we see here on bluelight.

Not only that but you can assume it'd probably affect the experience too as well as the initial comedown.

The pieces are falling in to place..

-GC


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## LucidSDreamr

The unfortuneate fact still exists that no labs will test for these imputities....

If some good hearted soul with an lcms would run samples on a full scan mode (which analaysis labs don't do, they only use mrm which only looks for what they tell it to look for) I would be happy to handle the data review.

This is going to take someone with an lcms at thier disposal to figure out.

Which labs do analysis? I'm curious how much they would charge to simply just run a generic gradient on full scan mode and just give the raw spectrums s
To us with no analaysu or "result" on thier part


----------



## anon65535

That is NASTY. Great post Glub. All of those checmicals are known carcinogens.

EC does do LC/MS testing. Per their site "Gas Chromatography coupled to Mass Spectrometer (GC-MS) and Liquid Chromatography coupled with Mass Spectrometer (LC-MS). Let me hit up Luis and see if he'd be willing to do a full scan mode on a sample. Though just because one sample doesn't have it doesn't mean another does.


----------



## indigoaura

Toxins in PMK glycidate would also explain why some users insist that the safrole derived MDMA is better. The toxins would not be present in the safrole, if I am understanding everything correctly.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Indeed, these toxic substances are unique to PMK glycidate and not only toxic but seemingly highly toxic.  Exposure to even smallest amount of acrylamide can cause some really fucked up things with our neurotransmitters.  The good ol safrole MD that we grew up on was free of that shit.

Also I like what I'm hearing lucid and anon  I really hope we can find someone as this could be the final nail in the coffin if we can detect some of these toxic substances.

And we'd definitely wanna test a few samples, I'm curious what the cost of something like that is? Or can we not speak of that cuz the rules n all?

Edit-  After reading more it seems, like MDMA, the toxicity of acrylamide is attenuated when antioxidants are taken in as well.  All the more reason people should be consuming antioxidants during a roll.  I can imagine the combo of MDMA and acrylamide could wreak havoc on the serotonin system.

Also another article said they've only seen full recovery in people with low exposure.  This also seems to ring true with what we read in the recovery threads here in the MDMA forum.  Recovery seems long hard and never fully complete more tolerated by those who went in too deep.

-GC


----------



## LucidSDreamr

This thread and the LTC thread honestly scare the living shit out of me from taking MDMA again.   I threw away my dissociatives due to bladder pain. 

It's looking like LSD is the last go-to psychedelic I can take without worrying about permanent damage. 

Then on the opiate front we've got fentanyl in basically everything including counterfeit benzos...jesus one can worry them self sick just thinking of getting high


----------



## G_Chem

And of course let us not forget good ol dewormer in cocaine haha yea it's a sad state right now for sure.  I was thinking the same thing actually, let's say we are right on this toxic impurity theory, we have zero way of figuring out what's good MDMA or bad and it's a pretty high risk.

Yea I agree though it seems the psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, DMT, and Mescaline are the few untainted left.

I'm curious lucid, since me and you still seem to roll fine, if you don't mind me asking what part of the world you from?  I wonder if this LTC phenomenon is more a U.K. thing?  I'm from the US.

I've actually been tracking and helping those with what you guys on BL call LTC since 2011 or so.  I remember in the beginning I thought pipes but then after awhile of hearing reports of people with reagent tested product doing this and I had to concede to the fact it was our beloved MD doing it.  Back then it was only a few here and there and now it's completely flooded all the MDMA forums out there.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

If any of you determine a lab that can be paid for these services, let me know. I will gladly send along a sample and pay for the sample to be analyzed. 

Definitely feeling foolish for the potential crap I have exposed myself to. I went by old-school rules and assumed that lab tested, reagent tested product was providing you with an authentic end result. Nobody ever talked about one MDMA being different from another, or about undetectable adulterants in lab tested product.


----------



## indigoaura

Also...observed an acquaintance partaking of MDMA. Minimal effects and no eye dilation on 100 mg, even after several hours. A second 100 mg dose did produce minimal eye dilation after about one hour. Nothing like the photo that was posted though.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

G_Chem said:


> And of course let us not forget good ol dewormer in cocaine haha yea it's a sad state right now for sure.  I was thinking the same thing actually, let's say we are right on this toxic impurity theory, we have zero way of figuring out what's good MDMA or bad and it's a pretty high risk.
> 
> Yea I agree though it seems the psychedelics like LSD, psilocybin, DMT, and Mescaline are the few untainted left.
> 
> I'm curious lucid, since me and you still seem to roll fine, if you don't mind me asking what part of the world you from?  I wonder if this LTC phenomenon is more a U.K. thing?  I'm from the US.
> 
> I've actually been tracking and helping those with what you guys on BL call LTC since 2011 or so.  I remember in the beginning I thought pipes but then after awhile of hearing reports of people with reagent tested product doing this and I had to concede to the fact it was our beloved MD doing it.  Back then it was only a few here and there and now it's completely flooded all the MDMA forums out there.
> 
> -GC



I'm in US.

This just in...mushrooms and cacti are growing laced with fentanyl :-(


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## Goodwalt

Im from Argentina and all the mdma around here seems to be that dutch crap.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Also...observed an acquaintance partaking of MDMA. Minimal effects and no eye dilation on 100 mg, even after several hours. A second 100 mg dose did produce minimal eye dilation after about one hour. Nothing like the photo that was posted though.


Some of the MD-P2P Glycidate contaminants are known neurological depressants. 
Perhaps their depressive action can interfere with Mydriasis (pupil dilation)... and cause Mongy experiences.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^I think you hit it on the head.  If we look it seems to be a commonality that batches which are mongy seem to contain an impurity with an alcohol group on em.  Indigos product that's mongy contains MDP2Pol and we now can see glycidol is quite possibly in this Dutch mong.  Makes perfect sense as to why this stuff lately completely spaces you out by people's accounts.

I will say if 100mg of MDMA should get said person some decent sized pupils and energy.  Indeed 100 followed by 100 would have most I know ballsin out as the kids say lol.

-GC


----------



## Biscuit

Well done everyone, especially Glubra and G_Chem, this is a very interesting development.

I posted this in another thread a while ago, but this thread warrants a repost. 

The link below is to the latest Australian Crime and Intelligence Commission reports on illicit drug trends. https://acic.govcms.gov.au/sites/g/files/net1491/f/2017/06/iddr_2015-16_amphetamine-type_stimulants.pdf?v=1498020180

Go to page 15 to 17; this table clearly shows that after 2011/2012 there was a complete and total shift from borohydride (isn't that supposed to be cyanoborohydride) to hydrogenation via platinum catalyst. Now this isn't limited to Australian produced drugs, but rather these results are from what was being stopped at our borders; what is being sent from the Netherlands for instance. The marked change in reductive amination route also seems to be around the same time as PMK-glycidate became widespread. A change to a pre-precursor (itself a chiral compound) and a shift to a different reductive amination route, could easily result in marked changes to the MDMA being produced; at the very least it is a possible explanation for what is plainly now undeniable.

On the topic of impurities in MDMA manufacture, have a look at this article, sadly not delving too much into PMK-glycidate. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293330219_The_synthesis_and_characterisation_of_MDMA_derived_from_a_catalytic_oxidation_of_material_isolated_from_black_pepper_reveals_potential_route_specific_impurities

and this in particular at pages 30-43: https://opus.lib.uts.edu.au/bitstream/10453/34517/2/02whole.pdf.

Heavy going but on topic and worth a look; if posting links to such synthesis related information (albeit way over almost any ordinary punter's head) is against the rules, then I apologise in advance and I trust someone will take them down (just the last two).


----------



## userlee5267

i think its a scary time to actually take mdma, i had two friends alot younger than me who i work with who have just come back from a music festival and they took 8g of dutch mdma, they bought online. 

they said they took the whole 8g in 2 days between just the two of them, said they were really enjoying them selfs. i asked about pupil dilation and they didnt have any, asked about empathy they had none, they were just glad to be twisted in there terms.

i tried to explain that what they had took could never be mdma at all as they wouldn't be able to do them kind of amounts at all, but they are certain it was as it was brown and it was crystally.

i explained how just a few pills would have you in love and pupils like saucers and they were saying that what we took when we were there age wasn's as strong thats why.

i am in disbelief and what they think is mdma when it surely cant be. they also mentione that what i was describing as mdma sounded more like the ketamine there friends were doing as they were all loved up and had massive pupils.

ummmm sounds like they aint got a clue nowadays. these lads are 18-19 years old... im closer to 40 lol


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Jesus man that's the problem right there but I'll get back to that in a min..

First off, much appreciated Biscuit that means a lot to me  honestly a lot of what you've posted over the years has helped me formulate some ideas which I thank you for.  Also those links are great especially the first one.  I've been having a hard time finding stuff like that for more recent years, very interesting platinum hydrogenation has been used more often recently... When I can I'll look around to see what impurities may come about from that but your right it's interesting they changed the way they do reductive amination pretty much entirely as of the past few years.

But back to you userlee lol.  My god kids these days, it'd take me years to go through 8g.  Honestly I'd think most people would feel frazzled n burnt out after a gram or so over 2 days.  I've seen people tell me they can take such and such amount who then get floored off 200mg when they try to play with the stuff I typically run into.  125mg is perfect plus a booster of 40-60mg of course.

The fact they don't even know that MDMA is supposed to dilate your pupils or give love to those around you shows things have definitely changed.  Even in my area I don't see or feel the love like I used to.

Actually speaking of, I went to a show last Saturday and ran into an old buddy of mine from back 5-6yrs ago who I met at a mini hotel festival and hung with here and there. Soon as I ran into him I was reminded of what is no longer a part of the scene.  Haven't seen or talked in 5yrs and he runs up and gives me the biggest hug.  He doesn't roll anymore but just that brief period of his life left him with such a big heart.  He and his friends were there running a charity at the show for a recently deceased friend.  He also became a nurse to help people.  We then got down like the ol days all of us dancing like we own the place while people who are all coked out stand there looking at us awkwardly.  Probably just a nostalgic moment but damn it reminded me of when mints flowed like wine and all wasgood in the world.

I remember when you could just walk up to randoms and hug them just cuz you felt like it and thought they'd appreciate it too.  Now your worried some coked drunk fuck might try and fight ya in return. 

We need to get the love back in the scene.  How we do that exactly idk but it needs to be done..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> I will say if 100mg of MDMA should get said person some decent sized pupils and energy. Indeed 100 followed by 100 would have most I know ballsin out as the kids say lol.



Nobody was ballsin out. LOL. At 200 mg, the individual was acting normally and conversing in a typical fashion. There was some jaw movement noted, but overall the individual appeared minimally different from sobriety.


----------



## anon65535

Just want to add something even though it is out of the reach of 99.9% of users. If it comes back that the cause of the shittiness is caused by synthesis impurities, the *only* way to get them out is to distill the freebase and resalt. Unfortunately, anything less than phase distillation will not work. 

Boiling points at 1atm assumed:
Freebase MDMA - 100-110C
Acrylamide - 241C
Glycidol - 167C
Glycolic Acid - Decomposes (MP at 75C so one may have to watch between 75C and 100C)

Generally distillation of the freebase is the only way to ensure purity. And skipping distillation of the freebase is almost guaranteed with the big labs. No way they do that. It's cheaper to not distill and to just add more product into pills. 

Washing with acetone has and always will only be a surface cleaning.


----------



## Glubrahnum

anon65535 said:


> If it comes back that the cause of the shittiness is caused by synthesis impurities, the *only* way to get them out is to distill the freebase and resalt. Unfortunately, anything less than phase distillation will not work.


Really?
What about A/B extraction with various solvents ?


----------



## anon65535

Hopefully we're not getting into an area that is not allowed by the board. I'm not sure where that line is but here we go.

Acrylamide -> Soluble in EtOH, water, ether and chloroform (I am going to assume it's soluble in DCM as well. If anyone knows what else it's soluble in, please chime in)
Glycidol -> Soluble in water, alcohol, ether
Glycolic acid -> Soluble in EtOh, methanol, acid, acetone

So you basify your salt in NaOH to PH 12.8 and get MDMA freebase then you add a non-polar solvent. Classically one would use DCM but if these are the synthesis byproducts one could easily use something like toluene. However, using DCM, chloroform or ether would be a better choice. But toluene *should* work.

From there wash your nonpolar and freebase mixture with water several times. What I don't know (hopefully someone can clear this up) is when you basify your MDMA HCl, will you also "freebase" the glycidol and acrylamide and other potential prop-2 byproducts? I assume the glycolic acid will be mixed in with the MDMA freebase.

From there you gas the freebase nonpolar solution and your MDMA HCl crystals will precipitate out of the solution.

Now assuming the glycolic acid is still mixed in, you should be able to wash that out with a hot acetone wash.  Whether the glycidol is still there is a question. I guess you could potentially get rid of that with a recrystallization in EtOH or IPA.

So I guess the answer to the question of whether just an A/B can get rid of those potential contaminants I think the answer is...maybe.

However, the most guaranteed way is to distill the freebase and capture the condensate from 100-110C and discard the rest.  Gas that freebase solution and you'll have 99-100% MDMA HCl.


----------



## Glubrahnum

anon65535 said:


> So you basify your salt in NaOH to PH 12.8 and get MDMA freebase then you add a non-polar solvent


Without washing the salt first?


----------



## MrRoot

My pupils just won’t dilate no matter what the dose but I do feel the same familiar MDMA effects from the MDMA I have currently access. Weird thing is that my SO do get pupils dilated as hell from the same dose taken from the same batch.

I tested my MDMA and it didn’t contain any adulterants and I have plenty of it left so I consider myself lucky although my pupils won’t dilate.

If I take 6-APB I get dilated pupils though.


----------



## Le Junk

anon65535 said:


> Hopefully we're not getting into an area that is not allowed by the board. I'm not sure where that line is but here we go.
> 
> Acrylamide -> Soluble in EtOH, water, ether and chloroform (I am going to assume it's soluble in DCM as well. If anyone knows what else it's soluble in, please chime in)
> Glycidol -> Soluble in water, alcohol, ether
> Glycolic acid -> Soluble in EtOh, methanol, acid, acetone
> 
> So you basify your salt in NaOH to PH 12.8 and get MDMA freebase then you add a non-polar solvent. Classically one would use DCM but if these are the synthesis byproducts one could easily use something like toluene. However, using DCM, chloroform or ether would be a better choice. But toluene *should* work.
> 
> From there wash your nonpolar and freebase mixture with water several times. What I don't know (hopefully someone can clear this up) is when you basify your MDMA HCl, will you also "freebase" the glycidol and acrylamide and other potential prop-2 byproducts? I assume the glycolic acid will be mixed in with the MDMA freebase.
> 
> From there you gas the freebase nonpolar solution and your MDMA HCl crystals will precipitate out of the solution.
> 
> Now assuming the glycolic acid is still mixed in, you should be able to wash that out with a hot acetone wash.  Whether the glycidol is still there is a question. I guess you could potentially get rid of that with a recrystallization in EtOH or IPA.
> 
> So I guess the answer to the question of whether just an A/B can get rid of those potential contaminants I think the answer is...maybe.
> 
> However, the most guaranteed way is to distill the freebase and capture the condensate from 100-110C and discard the rest.  Gas that freebase solution and you'll have 99-100% MDMA HCl.



Do you have the ability and product to test this theory?


----------



## LucidSDreamr

userlee5267 said:


> i think its a scary time to actually take mdma, i had two friends alot younger than me who i work with who have just come back from a music festival and they took 8g of dutch mdma, they bought online.
> 
> they said they took the whole 8g in 2 days between just the two of them, said they were really enjoying them selfs. i asked about pupil dilation and they didnt have any, asked about empathy they had none, they were just glad to be twisted in there terms.
> 
> i tried to explain that what they had took could never be mdma at all as they wouldn't be able to do them kind of amounts at all, but they are certain it was as it was brown and it was crystally.
> 
> i explained how just a few pills would have you in love and pupils like saucers and they were saying that what we took when we were there age wasn's as strong thats why.
> 
> i am in disbelief and what they think is mdma when it surely cant be. they also mentione that what i was describing as mdma sounded more like the ketamine there friends were doing as they were all loved up and had massive pupils.
> 
> ummmm sounds like they aint got a clue nowadays. these lads are 18-19 years old... im closer to 40 lol



No clue but think they are experts in drugs.

Low doses cause myadrsis

Ketamine causes mydriasis.

Brown crystals confirms it's MDMA.



When you are 19 you are an expert at everything.


----------



## Cotcha Yankinov

MrRoot said:


> My pupils just won’t dilate no matter what the dose but I do feel the same familiar MDMA effects from the MDMA I have currently access. Weird thing is that my SO do get pupils dilated as hell from the same dose taken from the same batch.
> 
> I tested my MDMA and it didn’t contain any adulterants and I have plenty of it left so I consider myself lucky although my pupils won’t dilate.
> 
> If I take 6-APB I get dilated pupils though.


Do you get pupil dilation from classical hallucinogens such as mushrooms?


----------



## MrRoot

Yeah I do get dilated pupils from hallucinogens but never from MDMA. Not even when I started back in the 2002.

There is actually a good example in the Lounge's nudie thread about it as we both have taken MDMA but no dilated pupils for me.


----------



## growit&smokeit

The identification of the potential of Acrylamide being in MDMA produced from PMK glycidate is really interesting; especially as a potential cause of the LTC phenomenon. As far as I can tell this phenomenon seems fairly recent, discussion of it is limited to this sub forum and (maybe a controversial thing to say) it appears to be mostly Americans who have suffered from it. From reading the LTC threads it appears to not happen to everyone in a group who takes a pill from the same batch. This makes me wonder a few things:

1) Why isn't it more evenly geographically distributed.
2) If it is mainly an American problem where is the MDMA coming from and what is different about it
3) There must be some contributory individual factor (biological differences or maybe some strange drug interaction)
4) If Acrylamide was the cause of LTC and was in the 'mongy dutch MDMA' then surely you would expect to see a lot of LTC cases from Europe, also I guess there would be more cancers among people using MDMA. 

It does appear from reading Bluelight that locally sourced MDMA is different and quite often better than dark net sourced MDMA. For example In the U.K. a few years ago there was rave reviews of a Manchester crew who were producing some really good pills which favourably compared to dutch stuff. This makes me wonder if the 'New MDMA' problem is mostly due to a few massive Dutch producers who operate largely on the dark net. 

If an impurity like Acrylamide was the cause of this 'mongy dutch MDMA' then I guess it would have to counteract MDMA's effect on dilating pupils, eye wiggles, euphoria, empathy, onset of the drug and duration in smallish doses say around 5-10 mg It sounds sort of far fetched. This is why I find the isomer theory attractive. Although it is extremely unlikely to not be racemic MDMA,  R MDMA has a lot of the qualities such as a higher dose, longer onset and is less speedy. Surely someone must have access to a polarimeter to test this theory!

I have heard it said that once dutch testing centres have tested a few pills from a press they don't bother to test subsequent pills from the same batch. It is fairly common for people to really like a press when it first comes out and then for it to get shittier over time. Maybe they put another drug in after a bit! Or maybe some producers are deliberately or unintentionally producing something that tests positive as MDMA but isn't.

Its fascinating how often these debates happen. People are convinced pre and post ban Mephedrone is different, there is a theory that pre-ban had more impurities so was better... There was the whole tan mdpv thing as well. Ketamine and other dissociatives often seems to vary from batch to batch.

The debate on MDMA changing has been going on forever on bluelight it would be good to get some answers.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Well right now acrylamide is just the potential reason for the LTC not the mong.  Also I ask why you say most who suffer are American? I was kind of under the impression it was the opposite but could be wrong.  It'd be interesting to figure that out as it would help us figure this out.

Right now it's theorized impurities that are "alcohols" (contain an alcohol group) are possibly the reason for the mong.  Indigo kindly has provided evidence to show MDMA with MDP2Pol (has an alcohol group) is mongy and overall not that great in comparison to the old stuff he was getting.  This Dutch PMK glycidate MDMA could very likely contain glycidol, which is another substance with alcohol on it which causes sedation and other effects.  There seems to be a pattern..

The acrylamide would be more in line with LTC sufferers but even then it doesn't fit the profile 100%.  My guess is that acrylamide mixed with the neurotoxic potential of MDMA would be a recipe for disaster and could likely present itself in ways that mimic both toxicities.  What we see with LTC seems to be an amalgam of the symptoms we'd see from both separately.

Again I think R isomer theory seems highly unlikely given the fact it lasts longer than S, mellower and it's also trippier.  This new crap is reported as very intense floor you kind of effect that isn't really even pleasurable then stops abruptly like 90mins in.  I do think it's possible for there to be EE in favor of one isomer or the other but the effects manifest themselves different than what we see with Dutch mong.

-GC


----------



## anon65535

Just an update on what I posted.  After thinking about it, you should be able to clear out glycolic acid, glycidamide, glycidol and acrylamide with hot solvent washes with acetone as well as ethanol/methanol. You need to do a hot solvent wash as the MDMA needs to be completely dissolved in the solvents and then crash out by bringing the temperature down and filtered.  I may run my acetone/IPA washed crystals through an SLX denatured alcohol wash but I'm a little hesitant as I don't like working with methanol and SLX is like 40% methanol. The other stuff has 5% methanol and like 1% of a ketone. If the ketone is safe, I may end up doing that. But either way, that should be fine for our purposes. You just need some to get solubility with the possible impurities.

I also heard back from EC, they are finding out whether the full scan LCMS can be done.


----------



## indigoaura

So...in the name of science...

Obtaining a sample from the DW. Claims to be safrole derived and USA made. Obviously, step one will be to mail off for testing. Will also reagent test. Anything else I should consider from a safety perspective here? Obviously, there are a lot of unknown factors that are not showing up in testing.


----------



## indigoaura

> I also heard back from EC, they are finding out whether the full scan LCMS can be done.



Badass...thank you!


----------



## psy997

Just checked this thread for the first time in a month or two.... AWESOME!

The past two pages are probably the most entertaining and informative posts I've read on BL in a while. Such good work you guys, thank you.


----------



## Glubrahnum

growit&smokeit said:


> 1) Why isn't it more evenly geographically distributed.


How do you know it isn't ?  
What is your population sample size ?



growit&smokeit said:


> 3) There must be some contributory individual factor (biological differences or maybe some strange drug interaction)


Genotypic variability and history of different substance exposure can account for many differences.



growit&smokeit said:


> 4) If Acrylamide was the cause of LTC and was in the 'mongy dutch MDMA' then surely you would expect to see a lot of LTC cases from Europe, also I guess there would be more cancers among people using MDMA.


Again, how do you know, that there aren't many LTC cases in Europe?
As far the other issue, cancer is a slow disease that might not have manifested yet and/or might not have been associated with a specific substance exposure.




growit&smokeit said:


> If an impurity like Acrylamide was the cause of this 'mongy dutch MDMA' then I guess it would have to counteract MDMA's effect on dilating pupils, eye wiggles, euphoria, empathy, onset of the drug and duration in smallish doses say around 5-10 mg It sounds sort of far fetched.


Not really.  There are many pharmaceuticals that are active in that dose range and some of them are active in the microgram range (LSD being one).
In light of this, a 5% of an antagonistic impurity is not that far fetched.  To deceive the GC/MS analysis at higher concentrations it would have to be isobaric or differing only in chirality.



growit&smokeit said:


> This is why I find the isomer theory attractive. Although it is extremely unlikely to not be racemic MDMA,  R MDMA has a lot of the qualities such as a higher dose, longer onset and is less speedy.


These differences are mostly based on the Shulgin's report.  I think G_chem should explain to you why it might not be entirely accurate.



growit&smokeit said:


> Surely someone must have access to a polarimeter to test this theory!


...and samples of both the bad and good "MDMA"



growit&smokeit said:


> I have heard it said that once dutch testing centres have tested a few pills from a press they don't bother to test subsequent pills from the same batch.


How do they know that a pill is from the same batch without testing?



growit&smokeit said:


> Or maybe some producers are deliberately or unintentionally producing something that tests positive as MDMA but isn't.


Like 2,3-MDMA ?




growit&smokeit said:


> The debate on MDMA changing has been going on forever on Bluelight it would be good to get some answers.


...and it will continue until someone tests at least 5 various "bad MDMA" and 5 various "good MDMA" samples on a chirally selective spectrograph or chromatograph, that is capable of differentiating isobaries and regioisomers of 3,4-MDMA.

Unfortunately, my equipment is not chirally selective.


_P.S.
Any serious researcher will face the problem of obtaining several of *in-vivo pre-tested* samples of "bad MDMA" and "good MDMA" without going to jail, which is a real show-stopper._


----------



## Glubrahnum

Plain underivatized GC/MS analyses made by most testing centers *cannot distinguish between these 23 substances*  listed below (...and their enantiomers), without expensive chiral  columns and exotic stationary phases, not to mention the crystalline polymorphs, so any of these substances can pass off as "MDMA" to a routine chromatograpic/spectroscopic test.

Also, any low concentration contaminants will not be detected by these routine analyses, unless specifically screened for.

Forensic analysts must have seen these different compounds, enantiomers or precursor contaminants in the recent years, though... but they are not publishing their findings, which is *evil* because this bad "Mongy Molly" evidently *provokes higher doses*, causes LTC and has increased death statistics in the recent years !!!  

This just shows you where their priorities lay.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

I was wondering today if you can send samples to China for nmr analysis for a reasonable rate. That would be a much more solid way to address the isobars or imputities.

briefly searched and found this company in the US: http://www.process-nmr.com/price sched.htm

They charge 56$ for a proton NMR without data interpretation.  Seems reasonable if a group of people are willing to chip in (as this would take running at least several samples to get anywhere). But i'd rather go with China personally if we find one.

But with that I'd be worried about sending them even trace amount of MDMA (wouldn't disclose what it is)..don't know the law well enough 


with regard to the above post, i know i mentioned this in the other thread but to have the record be complete:
I would bet a great majority of those isobars can be resolved chromatographically with a ten minute run. Others can be differentiated through product ion analysis. Does the anaysis method the labs have created accomplish these things? We don't know. But it can be done quite easily.

Even if they push everything out in under ten minutes I don't think there would be a ton of them that have the exact same retention time as mdma. 

I know paramethoxycathinone is pretty hard to resolve but you cannsee that it doesn't overlap with MDMA if you run standards of both. The others I have no experience with personally.

I


----------



## Goodwalt

psy997 said:


> Just checked this thread for the first time in a month or two.... AWESOME!
> 
> The past two pages are probably the most entertaining and informative posts I've read on BL in a while. Such good work you guys, thank you.


Word


----------



## Glubrahnum

LucidSDreamr said:


> I was wondering today if you can send samples to China for NMR analysis for a reasonable rate. That would be a much more solid way to address the isobars or imputities.


NMR will resolve regioisomers and isobaries but not enantiomers.


----------



## anon65535

@Glubrahnum

This was an NMR done on MDMA from Canada back in ~2014-2015.

https://i.imgur.com/EwEo8pa.jpg


----------



## Glubrahnum

anon65535 said:


> This was an NMR done on MDMA from Canada back in ~2014-2015.


Was it done on "good MDMA" or "bad MDMA" ?


----------



## LucidSDreamr

anon65535 said:


> @Glubrahnum
> 
> This was an NMR done on MDMA from Canada back in ~2014-2015.
> 
> https://i.imgur.com/EwEo8pa.jpg



its too blurry i can't see any splitting


----------



## G_Chem

Yea I'd agree, while I don't know what I'm looking at I get the impression it'd be hard to read for someone that does.  But good job guys trying to find a way to do some testing  hope something pans out..  And also interested to hear how it goes for you Indigo although I've heard people lie about that to sell product because people are aware "safrole mdma" is supposedly the bees knees, so it could be one of those situations.

Really cool to see all the progress being made, sorry I haven't been around but that'll change soon..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> And also interested to hear how it goes for you Indigo although I've heard people lie about that to sell product because people are aware "safrole mdma" is supposedly the bees knees, so it could be one of those situations.



Yes, that is definitely the concern.

In regards to the DW product... In appearance, it is a semi transparent champaign color. Small crystals. The crystals are obvious and visible, but very small. There is a slight safrole smell; not as strong as an old bag of pills, but it is definitely there. It is also a fairly dense product. 100 mg fills about 1/2 of a small capsule. In contrast to the older product, which is very light and 100 mg fills the same capsule. Also in contrast, the older product looks more like a powder or a flour. It does not appear crystalline like this DW product. A friend suggested that the new product appears to be hydrous while the old product appears to be anhydrous.


----------



## G_Chem

Excited to hear if you find any difference at all  so am I correct in that you've been essentially taking the same fluffy powder MDMA with MDP2Pol as an impurity since like 05?  This should be interesting..

Sounds like the product I come across only stuff I get is typically closer to white/clear, but small crystals is a good sign as it might mean the chemist didn't try to fuse the crystals (often combined with other substances to help form the big "crystals" or rocks as they should be called).  Don't get me wrong there's some bomb fused mdma out there but it can vary.

When and where do you plan on trying it? What's your use been like this past year or two?

The slight safrole smell is good, I find the best product has it present but isn't overwhelming.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Hi G_Chem,

Yes, I have had access to the same product since 2005. However, when I reported the impurity to my supplier, he said changes were put into effect (acetone washes among other things) to improve on the final purity of the product and remove the MDP2Pol. Despite this, it was always the sleepy experience (sometimes a bit better than others) I reported previously. In retrospect, it seems quite foolish that I did not send more to be tested to see how much the product was improved. Guess I could still do that, for informational purposes.

I did briefly have access to a different product. That was a tan crystal. I liked it better, but I did not have access to it for very long, and mostly just tried low doses at concerts and whatnot. Never really tested out higher doses.

This DW product was sent from the San Fran area. Hoping those San Fran hippies know what's up.

My pattern of use for the past decade or so has been to use MDMA around 3-4 times per year. Most recently, I took MDMA on NYE, and before that, on Halloween. Both times were low doses with no depression afterwards, although I did get that upset stomach nonsense after NYE.

I will be doing it at home with my vinyls and sound-system. 

What do you make of how dense and heavy it is? Should I start with the same 100 mg dose I typically start with? I was thinking I would, to get a good comparison with the other product.

-indigoaura


----------



## G_Chem

The density sounds right, I've found that even high quality powder mdma has a high density compared to other drugs.  Typically .1g will not fill a capsule, unless they are the really small ones.

I've got high hopes for this experiment although setting might be a bit light.  I find my rolls are always a little lackluster even with amazing product when I'm staying at home.  Everyone's different though and some people love it.  I guess we know if you roll good at home then you'd be going hard in a more engaging setting.

100mg would be good at least initially for comparison but I find these days as I've gotten older my dose has gone from 100mg plus 20-60mg booster to 120mg plus 20-60mg booster.   That little jump has made a big difference in reliability of my rolls and just the right intensity.

San Fran sounds like it has a decent scene (been listening to artists from there lol) so I'm hoping that is a reflection of the MD quality.

So when's the big day?

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I've always been a home roller, either my own home or a house party. Back in the "good ol days," I remember getting all confused with my electronic cords while I was trying to plug up headphones and music. Everything always got tangled and difficult to maneuver! I actually find that I am far less comfortable when I am out. Standing around at a concert or live event gets tiring, and I just want to find a blanket somewhere to snuggle.

I do think 120 mg would be a better dose for me, after 18 years of use. I have tried that dose of the old product, and it still does not get me where I need to be. So, I suppose I could start with 120 mg of this new product and still be able to compare it to the old stuff.

Before I can set a date, I want to see the lab results. Too much fentanyl and bullshit going around for me to just try it without an analysis. After that, I will wait for a weekend when work is light the next week and give it a go. Hoping to have a friend participating with me. He has hardly used MDMA at all for the last 8 years because he did not like the product. Maybe he has rolled twice in the last 8 years. Interestingly, the last time he rolled with me he had hardly any effect, despite his break of many years. He complained of the same issues as me, lack of empathy etc.


----------



## G_Chem

I feel ya man, I'm a little of both.. When I'm up on it I wanna be out and dancing or hiking/out in nature, but once I start to comedown snuggling up under a blanket with copious amounts of cannabis sounds amazing.  A little k never hurts either 

My last roll was amazing and most of it was spent just me and my girl in a rented airbnb house chatting up shit and getting down to two 12" subs.  I was worried it wouldn't be stimulating enough but got exactly what I was looking for.  (Mind you many other drugs were involved but you know an MDMA roll when ya feel whether other drugs are involved or not.)

And much respect on waiting for the analysis, I think we could all take a lesson in that including myself..

-GC


----------



## anon65535

Well, I have an anecdotal update.  After a nice two year break from MDMA I decided to go for it.

I took 100mg of my 75:25 acetone:IPA washed MDMA along with 50mg of clear MDA at 11PM
Had the "oh my god" feeling about 30m later and was peaking not much longer after that. I had eaten ~2 hours prior. Had the eye wiggles, not much lethargy and danced for a bit to some shpongle. After about two hours of this I decided to take a redose of 30mg MDA, 30mg MDMA and also took 225ug of AL-LAD.  Put on some Hallucinogen Wicked and decided to hit some n2o.

Blasted into hyperspace. I think I listened to Wicked twice and hit a few balloons while having it on. Just the most euphoric, sublime, astonishing experience ever.

I didn't end up sleeping until probably 8-9AM and then slept a few hours during the day. Went to bed early, slept a good 12 hours and woke up feeling great.  I remember the original material prior to washing, it wasn't super great but after washing there definitely seemed like a marked difference (though 2 years off of serotonergic drugs probably helped). Come up was definitely faster. Starting to peak after 30m should not have been affected by the MDA taken).  I know it wasn't a pure MDMA experience but fuck was it good.

MDMA + MDA + AL-LAD + N2O + Weed = God


----------



## G_Chem

Haha yes my man that combo is something else glad ya had a good one  , and interesting.. Although there's many variables as I'm sure your already aware that make it hard to get anything definitive.  If the MDA weren't tossed in I feel it'd have more weight but good crystal MDA is like everything rolling was meant to be in a home setting.  The two year hiatus being another variable as well but I guess with the crappy MDMA even breaks don't help..  Whatd the product look like before washes and was any substantial weight lost after?

With all that said I believe theres still some merit to this experiment.  5-MAPB which in my opinion is a beautiful substance when pure, I've had similar findings.  I sourced from two vendors, one very pure batch that was everything good described about the drug and one that was bad, mongy, non euphoric or empathetic etc.  Both vendors had great reviews and both tested close to the same on reagents.  Pure batch active in 10-90mg range, impure 150-500mg range.

A few washes using acetone and denatured ethanol (not mixed solvent, separate, also ethanol was a poor choice due to solubility in retrospect) on the impure product resulted in a much better experience that had more qualities related to the pure batch with stronger dosage.  Although it felt more cleaning needed to be done as much was still trapped in the crystals.  The oil pulled from washes was nasty dark red and smelled of amix between safrole, vanilla and almonds but in a nasty chemical kind of way.

Id like to see more anecdotal experiences on washes and subsequent effects.  I may dig around a bit.

Thanks for sharing that! I feel your on to something and a dry acetone wash on crushed up ecstasy tablet or crystal is not beyond most people's capabilities.

-GC


----------



## Le Junk

Alright chemists, Ive got a g of the new school crap.  Medium brownish/tan looking crystals that smell strongly of safrole.  Tested with the Simons, Mecke, Marquis and Mandelin came back as MDMA.  I havent tried it yet but some friends did with the usual responses.  Little to no pupil dilation, lack of any real love and empathy etc.  So whats the next move here?  I have several chems leftover from my cocaine production days.  Diethyl ether, anhydrous acetone, chloroform and hydrochloric acid.  In an attempt to try and turn this crappy MDMA into old school MDMA, what should I do?


----------



## Dresden

The Matrix.  MDMA only works if you're alive and in the underground City of Zion now.  Btw, don't swallow the red pill.


----------



## Goodwalt

I would take pictures and weight the new school product and then perform:
- acetone wash, then pic and weight again;
- a/b extraction, then recrystallization, then pic and weight;
- crush crystal to fine powder, then acetone wash, then recrystallize, then pic and weight.

Then: encapsulate 100 mg of both impure and new product and perform double blind test on your friends and post results.

What do you think Le Junk?


----------



## Le Junk

Goodwalt said:


> I would take pictures and weight the new school product and then perform:
> - acetone wash, then pic and weight again;
> - a/b extraction, then recrystallization, then pic and weight;
> - crush crystal to fine powder, then acetone wash, then recrystallize, then pic and weight.
> 
> Then: encapsulate 100 mg of both impure and new product and perform double blind test on your friends and post results.
> 
> What do you think Le Junk?



Sounds good to me.  What method of A/B extraction should I perform specifically?  Ammonia route?


----------



## indigoaura

Le Junk said:


> Sounds good to me.  What method of A/B extraction should I perform specifically?  Ammonia route?



Can't wait for these results.


----------



## G_Chem

From my poor memory using dilute ammonia to get pH 12.4 then use diethyl ether to pull freebase would work well.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Update:

A friend who is less cautious than I am decided to test out the DW product after a black marquis test reaction. This is the same friend I mentioned before, who had no eye dilation or euphoria on the other product. Decided to test the same amount, 100 mg followed by 100 mg.

Similar to last time, the first 100 mg had little impact on him. No eye dilation and minimal effects. However, on the second dose, he had visible eye jitters and jaw clenching. He also reported a feeling of happiness/euphoria. He was visibly affected, but still had minimal eye dilation. This friend typically NEVER sits down. His typical behavior is to walk around and talk to people. However, about 1 hour into the second capsule, he had to sit down and began asking a lot of open, caring, questions about my life with a huge smile on his face.

He said that he felt this product felt like 75% old-school E and 25% sleepy E. From my perspective as an outside observer, that seemed about right. 

So, seems promising, but not perfect. I am still waiting on Edata to post the lab results before I try it.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Le Junk said:


> I have several chems leftover from my cocaine production days.  Diethyl ether, anhydrous acetone, chloroform and hydrochloric acid.  In an attempt to try and turn this crappy MDMA into old school MDMA, what should I do?


How long did you store that Diethyl Ether ?


----------



## G_Chem

@Indigo, much appreciated man.  Hmmm the dosage seems a bit much unless he's a bigger guy and used to bigger doses.  But still better than what it sounds like you've had before.  Also I wonder if a different setting would have been more stimulating..  We'll know better once a few more experiences have been had on it.

So for that marquis reaction, was it straight black with no purple or was there purple before going black?

Some purple before going black is sometimes indicative of safrole produced MDMA.  Straight black with no purple has been talked as "not being as good" by many on here.

-GC


----------



## Ionized

Ok recent experience with current MDMA dutch salt. Subject has had numerous experiences with MDMA since the 90's and is familiar with the "good old MDMA".

Substance: MDMA Dutch salt advertised at least 84% pure (salt is tan colored rocks). 
Reagent Tests: Marquis fizzles directly to black (no purple). Mandelin straight to black. Mecke straight to dark green. Simon straight to cobalt blue. Everything looks good to go.

00:00 - On a totally empty stomach ingestion of 140 mg put inside a capsule with some water.
00:40 - Come up begins of medium intensity. 
01:00 - full effect: extreme calmness and relaxation but zero uplifting energy. Basically just a strong chill-out feeling accompanied by drowsiness and lot of yawning, too. Seems like pure serotonin release. Pupil dilation is average. It's there but not very strong. Music is enhanced but not even half as much as expected. Absolutely zero feelings of bonding or increased empathy. 
03:00 - Effects start diminishing. 
03:15 - Comedown begins. 
04:00 - pretty much every effect is gone. At this point subject feels almost totally sober. Pupil dilation is much less but remains noticeable.
09:30 - Pupil dilation is completely back to normal. Afterglow is minimal and mostly feels like a small dose of Xanax. Lasts for about a day.

Based on the above observation the effects of the pure Dutch MDMA salt were very different than the typical happy, uplifting, bonding, characteristics of MDMA. Lets not forget that this MDMA passed all 4 reagent tests.


----------



## SympatheticMD

Wow, you guys have gone BANANAS with this, and I love it!  I only understand a tiny bit of what the chemists are saying, but I get the overall idea.  I think indigoaura mentioned crowd funding for testing, etc.  Then someone said MAPS might help.  MAPS was just in my town, and I tried to meet with them.  They are incredibly overwhelmed and looking for funding more than additional investigation.  My intuition is that whatever form of MDMA they are studying is NOT the same thing as what you guys are honing in on when you describe the makeup of "old school" MDMA....who knows exactly what MAPS is using (or if you can even find out?).  
The only way I know to make the study of pharmaceuticals legal WITHOUT involving the FDA is to place it under the umbrella of a religion (or to find a way to categorize it as a supplement).  People are doing that now all the time with ayahuasca - not studying it, but taking it for religious purposes.  How hard is it to set up a religious organization as an umbrella to investigate what you guys are discussing instead of trying to beg politicians to do it to make street drugs safe?  Crowd fund a religious/spiritual study.   Although aren't these machines RIDICULOUSLY expensive?
Any lawyers out there who know about religious protection for this type of thing?  
Just an idea because it is so fun to read everything you guys are writing, even though I'm pretty sure I only understand 60%.  My point is, even if MAPS succeeds at making MDMA legal, I have a sneaking suspicion it won't be what people like Le Junk and I are describing from the 80s/90s, which I kind of think is related to safrole but I got lost a little bit with the impurities, because I swear one post made it sound as if some impurities were a GOOD thing????  (Hello G-Chem, I'm speaking to you).  Anyway, I'm enjoying reading all of your thoughts!

Also, if you are interested, I can come up with a protocol for testing the physiologic effects of one drug vs. another so you have objective, academic results.  You compare what you consider to be bad MDMA with good, and then as you take each drug you have people measure the list I would come up with.


----------



## G_Chem

Hey MD!

Yup it is my theory that early to mid (some in the later part of the decade too, I've heard people say it ended around 97) 90's MDMA was different from the MDMA that came before or after it.

It was this brief period where amphetamine cooks took up making MDMA via the leuckart synthesis, which is known to have the impurities which are psychoactive.  Based on people's reports as well as watching videos from back then I can confidently say the MDMA people took back then wasn't quite the same stuff Shulgin talked about.  Dosages were lower and effects seemed far more stimulating (although MDMA should always be stimulating it's just the stuff then was on another level.)

I'm sure people still synthesize MDMA via the leuckart reaction (maybe more now cuz I keep talking about it lol) it's just been almost completely replaced with higher yielding reactions.  In the 90's high yields were thrown to the wayside in place of ease of materials and synthesis, also the leuckart is the same way they were synthing amphetamine so why stray from the known methods.

With all that said I wouldn't say the MDMA of the 90's was any better than the good stuff we have available today, just different.  I also think there was a lot more good quality product to bad product then, as alot of the MDMA was likely made the same way for a period of time.  Now we've got people all over the world using many different routes, lots of room for variation these days.

But we must remember not to lump all impurities as "good," there are so many different synthetic routes and as we can see now some impurities can completely fuck up the experience.

I think I'd have to say the best MDMA is still the ultra pure product, which at that level it probably doesn't matter much what route was used.  Triple distilled freebase (just like my Jameson) then super slow re-X.

I like you idea though MD, I've been thinking about religious freedoms to circumvent laws for awhile now, I think the money would be the bigger issue though.  But Idk much on any of that :/


Thank you ionized for the detailed report.  That's textbooks Dutch crap right there.  The utter lack of energy, zero empathy or love, coming down only 3hrs after dosing (which is actually good for the Dutch mong, some people get less)..  

I think the duration part is what would kill me.  There's nothing worse than a short roll.  A 3hr roll or less is a disappointment, 4 solid hours minimum.  Preferably 5-7.

Snap a pic of the product if you got any left in curious how impure it looks..

-GC


----------



## SympatheticMD

G_Chem - I'm still perusing through all this stuff that I missed.  I went to Google Scholar and researched articles about the pharmacology and measured physiological effects of the ecstasy done in the 80s before Lloyd Benson (Texas Senator) fucked it all up.  So the stuff I experienced when there were free bowls of it on bars was different even than what I did only 8 years later in college (yes I did it first when I was 14).  You can dig up some interesting stuff on google scholar (although perhaps you have access to honest-to-god free, academic databases of journals).  I do not.

I did a little reading that I'll try to copy and paste for you, where they studied slightly different compounds on rat physiology and behavior.  I tried to compare the drugs they used with one of the posts that showed the chemical structure of compounds that can't be distinguished by chromatography.  However, I totally agree with you that all sorts of side products can slightly alter the effect and trying to find the one and only MDMA in addition to a cheap way to identify it with a machine seems like a difficult proposition.  However, if it can be made into an issue of religious use, then the need for expensive testing machines is not as critical as educated people working to make a good product...I guess.  I'm super jet lagged.  

I am losing track of what the group goal is here.  I know indigo is bravely trying something from the DW after having it tested somewhere, but what tests are being run on it?  And if it is great, what do we learn?  I think it is because I don't know what you chemists are saying when you get down to the nitty-gritty.  It sounds like some people can actually play with synthesis of it, and then knowing the structure of the final product is less important than having ingested the correct final product.  In any case, if we want to hone in on the desired effects, the stories people have are useful, looking up the descriptions found in journals written before 1995 are great.  And I would LOVE to know what they are using in the MAPS study.  I came so close to having lunch with them, and then I realized they just wanted to meet me to donate money.  

In any case, here is something that may make sense to you.  The study of the rats using related compounds of MDMA.  What I don't know is whether or not the things they used in the study are things that might be found in the drugs available today (or from yesteryear).  

Here is the rat study:https://www.researchgate.net/profil..._Analogues/links/0046351a614ca75e6f000000.pdf

Also, I cannot even understand what this is.  It describes some technical method of evaluating compounds.  What is it?  (You don't have to answer if it's out in left field.  I thought it might be helpful)

http://www.somewhereville.com/2009/...tz-spectrum-of-the-illicit-drug-mdma-ecstasy/

And I can't help it, this just flat out entertained me in terms of the history of MDMA because it directly sites the Texas ring who made the amazing stuff that LeJunk and I experienced.
http://www.maps.org/images/pdf/1994_mcdowell_1.pdf

And Indigo - I can't wait to hear your report.


----------



## indigoaura

Ionized: what you described is almost exactly what I have been experiencing from my post 2005 product.

Sympathetic MD: You offered, "Also, if you are interested, I can come up with a protocol for testing the physiologic effects of one drug vs. another so you have objective, academic results." Yes, I personally think that would be very helpful. I will participate, and so will my friends.


----------



## SympatheticMD

Le-Junk:  

This is just a thought, but since it appears you are asking about how to perform synthesis on your own or by someone you trust.  IF this is true, then you know that you don't have toxic additives like opiates, etc added.  So when you send the end product for tests, what are you hoping to find?  Are you wanting to rule out the presence of some of the dangerous side compounds mentioned in earlier posts (which I also think may be unidentifiable with current technology)?   Otherwise, it sounds as if the labs that people are sending the testing drugs to do not have the capacity to to precisely identify the subtle makeup within your sample.  The technology may exist, but it is likely too expensive.  Again, the point of sending them to these labs seems to be to make sure you are safe and haven't been given dangerous fillers by bad "distributors".  
That having been said, talk more with the chemists and play around.  Take good notes about what you (or your friends do), and when you find a product with the effect you want .... then you have it.  And you know what ingredients and techniques made it.  Whether its "pure" MDMA as assessed by these machines, or a specific proportion of enantiomers (which I'm not even sure they can test), seems less important than having an effective product with a well-documented recipe.  Until we can find a machine that looks at the effective product in perfect detail so that other compounds and combinations can be thrown away.  

As long as  you are in control of what goes in, then analyzing it for pollutants like too much meth or opiates seems irrelevant.  From what I understand, the labs available cannot even identify the compounds which might be poisonous. 

You and I had the same legal MDMA.   I went to Google Scholar and researched articles about the pharmacology and measured physiological effects of the ecstasy done in the 80s before Lloyd Benson (Texas Senator) fucked it all up.  So the stuff I experienced when there were free bowls of it on bars was different even than what I did only 8 years later in college (yes I did it first when I was 14).  You can dig up some interesting stuff on google scholar (although perhaps you have access to honest-to-god free, academic databases of journals).  I do not.



I am losing track of what the group goal is here.  I know indigo is bravely trying something from the DW after having it tested somewhere, but what tests are being run on it?  And if it is great, what do we learn?  I think it is because I don't know what you chemists are saying when you get down to the nitty-gritty.  It sounds like some people can actually play with synthesis of it, and then knowing the structure of the final product is less important than having identified the correct final product (since such test may be out of our reach).  In any case, if we want to hone in on the desired love and happiness effects, the stories people have are useful, looking up the descriptions found in journals written before 1995 are also great.  And I would LOVE to know what they are using in the MAPS study.  I came so close to having lunch with them, and then I realized they just wanted to meet me to donate money.  


Also, I thought you might like this because it describes the history of MDMA in the 80s, directly siting the Texas ring who made the amazing stuff that you (LeJunk) and I experienced.  They were making A LOT.

http://www.maps.org/images/pdf/1994_mcdowell_1.pdf

The more I reflect, the more I am certain that stuff is gone gone gone.  However, there was a following period in the 90s to 2005 or something like that which was also very nice.  I'll do some detective work about that Texas ring.  Maybe one of them would enlighten.  I remember the rush, the release, the floaty arms and the love and wanting to touch and take care of everyone.  I remember .. either being warm or cold, but I've read a lot about how the MDMA they studied in the 80s affected body temperature.  I was clammy but in a good way.  I wasn't super excited about dancing - that desire seems to have shifted more in the 90s batch.  

I'm rambling like a dog.  But you make me happy because I had forgotten how great all that was.  My body was so light and flowy and sensual.   When the designated driver took us on excursions,  everyone wanting the back middle seat in the car, usually the worst one.  The strong very intense burst before the pleasure.  I've noticed that is completely gone in newer products.  Maybe even by the 90s. Use the Google Scholar search engine, restrict your searches to studies published before 1995 , and try to use those studied parameters to see if they correlate with what your calling the good stuff.  

Good luck and keep me posted!


----------



## SympatheticMD

I'm locked out and cannot send you a private message.  Will you message me tomorrow (I have a terrible memory), and then I'll get an email and i'll send you my ideas.  I don't think simple pupil dilation is enough.  It would also just be fun to see what happens to the body.  But you'll need a good heart rate monitor and a blood pressure cuff.  It might just bum you out, and it might be almost impossible to do if you have trouble with speakers (I can relate)


----------



## G_Chem

Thank you ionized, to be honest I've seen much nastier looking product but many of the impurities are white/clear when pure also I suppose..

And MD I'll get back more later as I'm busy til tmrw, but indeed good product is not long gone it's just harder to find it seems.  Also your right the product you were taking in the 80's when legal was likely highly pure product (probably al/hg reduction) and indeed I've heard there was a change around 90-91.

The one thing I find funny though is every time MDMA goes through a change, the old timers from before say it isn't as good.  It's a preference thing truly, combined with nostalgia.  I'd say that's been the case up until 2010-11 when truly bad MDMA began to hit the market in large quantities, affecting LOTS of people.  There's always been subpar MDMA but from 2010 onwards that has increased ten fold.

One more thing, the goal right now is to simply locate the problem.  Once we do we can move on to figuring out the next step but right now we can't put the cart before the horse as they say.

With MAPS it doesn't really matter the synthetic route as they are using pure as we as humans are capable of making MDMA.  At ultra high purity the only thing which could alter the effects from a chemical composition standpoint would be polymorphs, which they are likely considering as well and aiming for anhydrous MDMA.

Be back later..

-GC


----------



## Goodwalt

I thought we agreed that the several hydrated forms of MDMA were preferred over anhydrous, no?


----------



## G_Chem

Na we were theorizing on the subject and I still think it's possible that one or more polymorphs are better than others (I do think hydrated possibly being preferable) but it was simply a loose based theory which has since been replaced by the much more plausible theory that impurities are to blame for the Dutch mongy mdma.  Polymorphism no doubt affects the experience but how much is the question..

I think polymorphism may play a part but I don't see it being the sole cause for this debate and I'd argue others feel the same way.  Sad thing with the polymorphism theory is we simply don't have enough evidence as it's not really studied.

The only study I found that did search for the polymorphism of different ecstasy samples found there was anhydrous as well as two other likely hydrated polymorphs.  But other than looking at Raman spectroscopy which isn't used as much to analyze ecstasy these days we haven't got much.

I'd still keep it as an open possibility though. This issue (if chemically related) is definitely an impurity or polymorphism problem, and lately we're leaning towards the latter.

Even with the strong evidence starting to point in favor of impurities it's still just a theory, not an agreed upon fact, until we've an analysis telling us we are right.  And even then we could be wrong...

Glubra did you ever run Raman spec on the newer product?  I forget.

-GC


----------



## Biscuit

> Ok recent experience with current MDMA dutch salt. Subject has had numerous experiences with MDMA since the 90's and is familiar with the "good old MDMA".
> 
> Substance: MDMA Dutch salt advertised at least 84% pure (salt is tan colored rocks).
> Reagent Tests: Marquis fizzles directly to black (no purple). Mandelin straight to black. Mecke straight to dark green. Simon straight to cobalt blue. Everything looks good to go.
> 
> 00:00 - On a totally empty stomach ingestion of 140 mg put inside a capsule with some water.
> 00:40 - Come up begins of medium intensity.
> 01:00 - full effect: extreme calmness and relaxation but zero uplifting energy. Basically just a strong chill-out feeling accompanied by drowsiness and lot of yawning, too. Seems like pure serotonin release. Pupil dilation is average. It's there but not very strong. Music is enhanced but not even half as much as expected. Absolutely zero feelings of bonding or increased empathy.
> 03:00 - Effects start diminishing.
> 03:15 - Comedown begins.
> 04:00 - pretty much every effect is gone. At this point subject feels almost totally sober. Pupil dilation is much less but remains noticeable.
> 09:30 - Pupil dilation is completely back to normal. Afterglow is minimal and mostly feels like a small dose of Xanax. Lasts for about a day.
> 
> Based on the above observation the effects of the pure Dutch MDMA salt were very different than the typical happy, uplifting, bonding, characteristics of MDMA. Lets not forget that this MDMA passed all 4 reagent tests.



This accords entirely with my experiences over the past few years with the majority of MDMA pills or crystal (although not all) which I have consumed. It has also become clear to me that a lot of this "type" of MDMA does last quite a long time, not so much the peak but getting back to baseline and no longer feeling "different".

Ionized's summation is precisely why I still believe the reason for the difference (which do not forget includes a MASSIVE increase in the typical dosages being consumed, even with halves being taken) is that the MDMA is not 50:50 racemic but rather a far greater proportion of the R isomer over the S isomer; who knows, perhaps some batches are close to pure R isomer. Different relative proportions of R and S isomers across particular samples also would account for why some batches of this "type" of MDMA are even more "mongy" than others. 

When one considers that this crap MDMA has been around ever since the larger manufacturers swtiched to using a chiral compound in PMK-glycidate as the pre-precursor (instead of safrole or PMK itself) AND switched to using a platinum catalyst for the reductive amination AS WELL (see my earlier post on this for proof), then how can anyone safely say that such a combination is not favouring the production of the R isomer (especially if the manufacturers are NOT purifying the PMK which they are producing from the glycidate - and I for one bet they are not!)

What is frustrating about this theory is that it is one of the easiest to prove or disprove. Forensic government laboratories absolutely have the capability of determining the enantiomeric ratio of different MDMA samples; they do it all the time for this drug and others like it, especially methamphetamine. It is just a matter of identifying someone at such a facility who could and would do this. Or failing that, putting pressure on one of the organisations that lab tests drugs which users send in, to either expand their own capabilities or perhaps use their name and standing in their country to approach another lab to perform such testing. Frankly, the reasons behind why MDMA pills are becoming ridiculously high dosed is something that government laboratories should have an interest in investigating and solving in any event, and if the "user targeted" laboratories approached such a request in this way, then perhaps this might get some traction with the appropriate authority.


----------



## SympatheticMD

The shortest way to this answer is finding a good sample (Le-Junk seemed to have access to what he thought was 80's quality stuff).  I also am remembering that things changed somewhere in the late 90s (I can't say the exact date of the change because I didn't do any for awhile).  The late 90s stuff was different, but as G.Chem says, is different bad as long as the experience is good?

In any case, if Le-Junk stuff and another sample of "good"  stuff can be found (I like the comparison because I'm dying to know what the hell was in the 1985 version - it was truly wonderful), then finding a place that would agree to thoroughly test it ... ie make the distinctions that you are all discussing:  isomer ratios, polymormphisms, and whatever else these machines can find - then we know the makeup of the product we want.  

Granted, I don't know how to find the place to do this.  OR how to get the samples to the place that would do this.  It might be worth a shot to ask MAPS, but I think they get their product from a certified manufacturer and therefore don't have laboratory testing (I also cannot think of a reason that they would agree to do it).  

I still think finding a way to make it a religious act fixes the entire thing - and there would be an even more legitimate argument to use is safely given that the FDA is testing it for approval as a scheduled drug.  I'll try to figure that out.  But what I don' have is the samples to test.  

And Biscuit, thanks for referring to the fact that MASSIVE doses are needed now.  I thought I was getting old or had some kind of physiologic issue because I can take a staggering amount and get very little out of it.  Nice to know that the  problem isn't totally that I screwed up my brain in my crazier years.


----------



## G_Chem

While I'm still skeptical of the isomer theory I think your right biscuit in that we should pursue this first as it's the easiest to solve.  Just checking out polarimeters online and they aren't that expensive relatively.  I'd buy one and do it myself but I don't seem to be coming across this mongy MDMA..

I also think we should really figure a way to determine exactly how this stuff feels.  Like maybe a separate thread where we can compile descriptions/reports from the mongy MDMA and then we can get a better more complete idea of how this stuff affects people.  It'd at least help people like me out who don't have first hand experiences.

I was always under the impression it was simply short lasting but if there is some residual effects that last long after the main peak experience that could indicate R isomer like you said biscuit.

Also I'm reading that post differently I think by ionized but he can come in to correct us I'm sure.  But based on what he said I get the feeling there was no residual effects, the only mention is "afterglow was minimal" and a feeling of sedation like taking a xanax which could be related to taking MDMA the night before.  My read on that is, possibly the sedative like impurities are still active at that point..  I feel if R isomer felt sedating we'd see that in truly racemic product as well.

So what's this residual effect like for others? 

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Not sure if we are allowed to post links or not, but I see one polarimeter listed for $450. You could crowdfund that easily just from the people here, I am sure. I see many others in the 1k to 1.5 k range. Even that could be crowdfunded without much difficulty.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, if you type "rent a science lab" into Google, you will get a large list of results. Example: https://www.abtech.edu/content/BioNetwork/Laboratory-Use-amp-Equipment-Rental

Could we briefly rent lab space to perform the tests that need to occur?


----------



## Le Junk

Glubrahnum said:


> How long did you store that Diethyl Ether ?



Prolly about 5-6 years now.


----------



## Le Junk

Can one of you chemistry genius's give me a brief description of exactly what I need to request from edata as far as additional testing goes.  Basically the additional things we're wanting to test for like isomers etc.  I'll just copy and paste your description along with my latest sample.  I'll email them ahead of time to confirm whether or not they're even willing to do it of course.  Thanks!


----------



## Le Junk

SympatheticMD-

My goal is to once and for all identify the actual culprit with todays crap vs. the paradise you and I both enjoyed so many many years ago my friend.  Once identified, hopefully a test kit can be established to expose the inferior process thus leading to a forced change in the way MDMA is manufactured illicitly.  I feel that is something that can be accomplished fairly easily once it's actually identified.  

Regarding MAPS, I'm relatively certain that the product they're getting is from a pharmaceutical company.


----------



## Coolwhip

I didn't read this whole thread, just the first page, I can't believe it has gone over 20 pages.

You are 51 years old, you've been rolling for over 30 years, along with a cornucopia of other hard drugs. MDMA is one of the most powerful drugs you can ingest, acting on the brain in many different ways causing all sorts of changing from gene expression, neuron death, and receptor regulation. Any drug that causes euphoria is known to lose its affect over time.

I would be WAY more surprised if MDMA did cause the same effects now as in the past, its a miracle the best effects don't fade sooner than they do.

At its core, MDMA hasn't changed, assuming that is what you are ingesting and it isn't adulterated with other drugs...you have.


----------



## Goodwalt

Coolwhip said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, just the first page, I can't believe it has gone over 20 pages.
> 
> You are 51 years old, you've been rolling for over 30 years, along with a cornucopia of other hard drugs. MDMA is one of the most powerful drugs you can ingest, acting on the brain in many different ways causing all sorts of changing from gene expression, neuron death, and receptor regulation. Any drug that causes euphoria is known to lose its affect over time.
> 
> I would be WAY more surprised if MDMA did cause the same effects now as in the past, its a miracle the best effects don't fade sooner than they do.
> 
> At its core, MDMA hasn't changed, assuming that is what you are ingesting and it isn't adulterated with other drugs...you have.


You really need to read the whole thread. This has been disproved multiple times, today's MDMA is not the same as the one from many years ago.


----------



## psy997

Coolwhip said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, just the first page, I can't believe it has gone over 20 pages.
> 
> You are 51 years old, you've been rolling for over 30 years, along with a cornucopia of other hard drugs. MDMA is one of the most powerful drugs you can ingest, acting on the brain in many different ways causing all sorts of changing from gene expression, neuron death, and receptor regulation. Any drug that causes euphoria is known to lose its affect over time.
> 
> I would be WAY more surprised if MDMA did cause the same effects now as in the past, its a miracle the best effects don't fade sooner than they do.
> 
> At its core, MDMA hasn't changed, assuming that is what you are ingesting and it isn't adulterated with other drugs...you have.



Mmm I'm quite annoyed at your over-confident ignorance. You remind me of myself 4-5 years ago.


----------



## Le Junk

Coolwhip said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, just the first page, I can't believe it has gone over 20 pages.
> 
> You are 51 years old, you've been rolling for over 30 years, along with a cornucopia of other hard drugs. MDMA is one of the most powerful drugs you can ingest, acting on the brain in many different ways causing all sorts of changing from gene expression, neuron death, and receptor regulation. Any drug that causes euphoria is known to lose its affect over time.
> 
> I would be WAY more surprised if MDMA did cause the same effects now as in the past, its a miracle the best effects don't fade sooner than they do.
> 
> At its core, MDMA hasn't changed, assuming that is what you are ingesting and it isn't adulterated with other drugs...you have.



In your lengthy explanation of how its me and not the drug, you missed the fact that I still have access to 80s quality MDMA.  No its not the same my friend.  Not by a long shot.


----------



## Ionized

^^^ Well said.


----------



## indigoaura

Coolwhip said:


> I didn't read this whole thread, just the first page, I can't believe it has gone over 20 pages.
> 
> You are 51 years old, you've been rolling for over 30 years, along with a cornucopia of other hard drugs. MDMA is one of the most powerful drugs you can ingest, acting on the brain in many different ways causing all sorts of changing from gene expression, neuron death, and receptor regulation. Any drug that causes euphoria is known to lose its affect over time.
> 
> I would be WAY more surprised if MDMA did cause the same effects now as in the past, its a miracle the best effects don't fade sooner than they do.
> 
> At its core, MDMA hasn't changed, assuming that is what you are ingesting and it isn't adulterated with other drugs...you have.



If you can't even bother to read the thread, then maybe you shouldn't bother to post. There are a myriad of reasons why your opinion is not correct, and you would know what those reasons are if you had read the thread.


----------



## SympatheticMD

*It cut me off with length*

OK, there were some requests for subjective experiences and I will try.   As for the things that happened after 2005-2008, I was out of the scene, and when I came back the drug was just totally different.

80's/Dallas/legal drug:  there was no multi subsbtance use, even when we were teenagers.  you bought your drug, you had your orange juice and vitamin C, which were supposed to prolong things when something came down.  You took it with just a few people in a private place.  You didn't take it, and assume that it would be great in a club because it was a lot of sensory stuff to take in.  When it hit (we didn't watch pupils), some people had to take 15 minutes or so (after 15-10 minutes of waiting).  These 15 minutes are one major thing I would categorize as the difference for this particular strain.  You just kind of held on, unsure of what would happen, wanted someone near you.  The group was cohesive, everyone waiting for the others, everyone checking on everyone else, everyone already very patient and loving and supportive.  I always had the hardest come-one.  I curled in a ball, and tried to just get it together.  Not afraid, just not sure what was up or down or if I could get my eyes open.  and then poof!, all muscles relaxed.  All people held hands.   all people seemed to have very relaxed muscles, light sweat, perhaps dry mouth, and the rubbing started.  Then maybe some walking.  some people weren't ready for music.  so walking happened  everyone followed each other to stay together in each room.  Eventually, we would venture out.  Walking outside was great.  Some crazy nut would drive, and the rest of us fought over the middle seat.  Rubbing and contact between all was mandatory .   There was a lot of teeth grinding  Occasionally, we could get to a club, but that was never the best part.  Kind of loud.  Outside with air and chewing straws or the ocean was good.  swinging.  sand.  putting feet in water.  And  love for the people you just met that lasted .. well 40 years  As for make out and sex...Le-Junk was older.  I was kind of young, so this was likely to be overwhelming, but I can see how this would have been amazing.   I'm guessing 6 hours max.

90s:  This was a bit different.  The crazy come on was gone or way diminished.  That depended on the strain.  It was much more likely to take it and go to a gay club and dance.  Or the beach.  The point is that interaction with crowds and more speediness/sociality and tolerance of sensory stimulati was better.  However, the concern for the group, the empathy, the loose muscles, the jittery eyes, the grinding jaw, the rubbing were the same


----------



## SympatheticMD

I'm trying to keep this short:
I didn't do it again until 2008, and it was just totally different.  No strong come-on.  No empathy.  Rubbing stayed the same.  I could drink and do several other drugs because the MDMA just wasn't strong.  It just isn't the same drug.  I'm not complaining - just curious about what happened because I liked the old drug and I thought it had some psychosocial use.


----------



## SympatheticMD

Le Junk said:


> Prolly about 5-6 years now.



The problem with finding out what we had is I don't know that we can find out what exactly was in it.  I have been watching some documentaries about the .... what was the club called?  I do know that at first they got the supply form SF, and then when things got hot they moved down south to Mexico I think.


----------



## Biscuit

I only know MDMA from 1999 onwards, and from that time right up until the massive drought of the late 2000s, real MDMA pills (which were often a challenge to source in Perth, Australia) only ever had the "good, loved-up and massively dilated pupils kind" of MDMA, just in differing purities and differing strengths. The strongest pill I am aware of was labtested at being about 180mg of MDMA-HCl but rarely were the best pills greater than 140-150mg.

Once PMK glycidate and the mega dosed pills came onto the worldwide scene (even though Australia rarely sees the mega dosed tablets) things changed completely and quite terribly to how they are now; MDMA only pills and powders are easy to find, but scoring the "good, loved-up and massively dilated pupils kind" of MDMA is about a one in five chance (if that; it may be as low as one in ten!).

Whilst I don't doubt that the MDMA of the late 80's was a different beast again (which given all the reports from the true old timers who were lucky enough to have been around at that time, something very special indeed), comparing this "kind" of MDMA with the MDMA that was around in the 90s or 00s MDMA, is really of historical interest only. What is crucial here is to compare the MDMA from about 2013 onwards with ANY "kind" of MDMA which came before that; MDMA which would still be far closer effects wise to what the 80s stuff sounds like it was than it is to the current stuff. By referring to 'any kind before that', I am of course including any MDMA samples obtained recently but with effect profiles which are far closer to the older stuff than to the majority of MDMA avaliable today. 

Further, comparing two different "kinds" of MDMA which a larger group of people might be familiar with, such as that from 1998 to 2008 or thereabouts to that which has been available for the last five years, will better ensure that people will not just assume that the late 80s MDMA was very different and nothing but a fond memory now. Given this massive deleterious change in objective and subjective effects has only arisen far more recently, the comparison I suggest can be attested to by far more people and an effective comparison can still be achieved with MDMA samples that are available today, as the "good, loved up and massively dilated pupils kind" of MDMA is definitely still out there; however, seemingly only attainable by those in the know and those lucky bastards who always seem to win at Poker.


----------



## SympatheticMD

I am not super good at posting, and I got cut off.  
I would say that from 1998 - 2005, when I dropped out for awhile, the stuff was still good - it just was a bit "weaker" in the sense that you could function with strangers or go to a club, but you still wanted to be with your group, you still rubbed on them and felt a bit like jello, and I remember it getting a bit more sexual.  If my tongue wasn't in someone's mouth, then it was on my arm or somewhere.  For example, my friend woke up next to another friend at six am with her hand in the other girls mouth, saying that she had been dreaming she was grocery shopping.  So you could zone out more, and it was a bit easier to fall asleep, but the pupils were big, you started looking for more earlier, and I remember still sticking mostly to water (which was unusual to me)
The stuff I have done lately, I can't even identify it from the other crap that gets piled on.  There is no rubbing.  There is jumping.  And I have to take A LOT.  There was no way I could have driven before 2008, and now ... well, I don't think I've tried.  But I can play ping pong.  I can talk to the police (NEVER before 2008 with success).  And the next day wasn't as lovely by 2008 as it was ... well I think that went away by the early 90s.  Any other comments.   I guess the only other thing I could say is the later stuff got more psychedelic  Glow in the dark toys replaced my orange cap lids of random smooth rocks I picked up.


----------



## Biscuit

^ I completely concur with all of that 100%. Identical experiences, despite two completely different people, from different eras and I assume different countries. Tolerance alone cannot explain it. Two people (and the many thousands more) aren't having the same delusions about this phenomenon


----------



## G_Chem

Biscuit I'm glad you made that statement as while there has been changes in the past and various "kinds" of MDMA over the years, the comparison between those was far closer than the crap we see nowadays.  I've been trying to say that in posts past but you said it so much better, really the huge change to sub quality product didn't occur until after that drought.

When I think of different kinds and eras of MDMA I categorize them as such..

Before 1990 - (Type 1A)
1990 to late 90's - (Type 2)
Late 90's to late 00's - (Type 1B)
2010 onward - (Type 3)

(Note:  Type 1A and 1B were likely comparable in effect and synthesis but probably varied due to standard dosage differences between the two eras.)  Of course the above is just a generalization and things always vary based on current connections and location.

The first 3 eras were all considered high quality experiences by most who had them, just each varied from the one before it in ways that could be considered neutral.  The fourth, our current situation, should be compared against all others as it's the only time a majority of the users have felt these negative effects and experiences.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

SympatheticMD's post struck a cord with me.  The couple of times I tried mdma in the 90s I would say the intensity of the come up would be massive, so that I had to take a few minutes to get to terms with it, but then the euphoria would hit and everything was amazing.


I would characterise it like this:


- 50 mins nothing
- 5 mins huge come up with massive body rush.  Intensity was slightly scary
- then euphoria would be added
- couple of hours of incredible feeling.  Eurphoria plus emotional connection.  I described back then the euphoria as being so physically instense it was like I was being crushed and exploded at the same time, but pure pleasure.


One thing I should point out.  Either because I'm fairly big, or because I just need more, or both, one pill did very little, 2 were incredible.


Forward-wind to me picking up the habit again for the last couple of years.  I've been getting powder/crystal mdma.  It tests as it should (I didn't test my stuff from the 90s) but it is nowhere near as good.  The emotional side is good, but the physical intensity is much less.  I get a phase where it feels like I'm coming up like I did before but it doesn't last so long, maybe 15 - 30mins.  The come up has this physical lift up that I remember from before, like two people are literally grabbing me under my arms and lifting me up, but the intensity is not as big.  And then the mongy feeling kicks in.  In all honesty it feels like two drugs are fighting each other which is why I'm wondering if the impurities during manufacture theory has merit.


Differences:
- Modern has a sooner onset (< 30mins vs 50mins)
- Modern has uplift feeling but no massive physical intensity like old did
- Modern has mongy feeling kicking in after about 1.5hrs
- Feel like I need more.  Have edged up to over 300mg which is better, but still nothing blow-you head off, which I would - have expected (although see my comment about needing 2 pills of the old stuff)


Same:
- Emotional connection, empathy
- Higher doses have some visual/music/perception alteration that can also sync in with eye wiggles.  I love this aspect.  - Kinda like the world is having some amazing dance music video edit.  Watching girls dance is amazing in this state, for example.
- Twinkling, fantasy world type euphoria.  But old is better in that regard.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Oh and everything I've said for MDMA could be said for MDA as well.  For more experience of it at least


----------



## ThreePointCircle

With regards to impurities.  I came across this and thought it was interesting:

https://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/rhodium/pdf/forensic/mdma.tablets.impurity.profiling.pdf


----------



## SympatheticMD

Thanks for that link ThreePointsCircle.  I'm guessing the analysis they used ( I saw a few methods) are NOT the same methods used in the labs that test the purity of street samples?  Also, in the article it said

																		[COLOR=rgb(16.100000%, 14.500000%, 14.900000%)]Isosafrole is also encountered in some samples; thisproduct can be used as a starting material to synthesize di-rectly MDMA or to obtain 3,4-MDP-2-P. In the samplesstudied, 3,4-MDP-2-P was often present with isosafrole,confirming the use of isosafrole as a precursor of this ke-tone. It is interesting to note that, when present, onlytraces of this precursor were observable, indicating a goodyield of the first synthetic step or, more probably, a purifi-cation before the second step. 

Does this possible mean that the sasafrole/sasafrass...yhou know what I mean... may be key to getting the better stuff, or is that a stretch?  It is still my favorite hypothesis.  I noted no discussion of enantiomer ratios in the paper - is that a difficult step to take in the analysis of the final MDMA product?

[/COLOR]


----------



## G_Chem

^^This seems to be plausible.  Not so much for the fact that it contains something other MDMA doesn't (it does...) but for the fact it doesn't contain what much of today's product does.

Many today claim product with a "sassy" smell is more potent and all around better, I tend to find it better but there's a certain level where too much can be bad as well.  Sounds like certain areas don't hardly see product with that smell but other areas do.

Also that is interesting 3point, and seems to fit the theory perfectly.  It does seem based on experience reports as well as LTC reports that there is multiple substances with varying effects, durations, etc that fight and overlap each other.

As they say in article back then much of the MDP2P was likely synthesized from safrole->isosafrole->MDP2P.  This was likely done in the same lab producing the MDMA and purified there as well.  Nowadays the PMK glycidate (aka MDP2P glycidate) is not made in house but bought from China and assumed pure.  As we know China ain't known for pure clean products.  It's likely this change in production causing the issue, and impurities in the PMK glycidate being carried over into the final product.

Enatiomers are never really checked, it shouldn't really be difficult for them to do either I just think it's never checked because people always assume the end product is racemic and there'd be no reason to separate them unlike meth where there is more incentive to separate them.

-GC


----------



## Messire

Keep up the good work Le Junk! Hopefully your investigations will shed some light over this acute topic.

There's an observable decline in the quality of the MDMA/XTC found in Europe nowadays. I'm sure that even the good stuff from the past few years was still far away from the 80s stuff but it gets increasingly harder to find quality batches altogether. I had a couple of experiences with good MDMA that are miles miles away from the mediocre ones that are so common now (and I don't think that building up tolerance or nostalgia are the main culprit here).


----------



## indigoaura

I know I already posted my experience here, but I just wanted to add that I completely agree with SympatheticMD's description of the good stuff. The intense, "I need to sit down" come-up was characteristic of what I had access to from 2000-2005. Rubbing was also characteristic. If you were alone, then you were rubbing your fingers through your own hair or rubbing your own pants legs. I hate to admit this, but I have 8 mm video of a party from around 2001 where I am wandering around wearing nothing but a sheet. Things degenerate from there to licking random people. I recall another event where I had a conversation with a stuffed bear, and cared deeply about the bear's well-being. This was normal for those kinds of small, intimate parties. 

Here's a review of my previous comments in a handy, bulleted list (we all love bulleted lists, right?):

*The good stuff (Accessed from 2000 to 2005)*

*Intense come up where you may need to sit down, vomit, or have a "disco dump." Rushing feeling.
*For me, it was a fast come-up that started within 15-30 minutes.
*Euphoria; love for the people around you; a feeling of well being; a feeling of spiritual connection.
*Enhanced tactile sensations, ie: noticing the air on your arms, the carpet under your feet, the fabric of your sweater.
*Enhanced music (noticing instruments you never heard before etc.)
*Enhanced vision (oooh...look at the texture of that paint)
*Enhanced sex (like, REALLY enhanced)
*Lots of jaw clenching and chewed up lips
*Eye wiggles so you could hardly see
*Massively dilated eyes
*The next day usually felt rosy with an afterglow; you may write poetry
*The worst part was the depression that seemed to hit on the Tuesday after the weekend, but it only lasted a few days or 1 week max.

*The new stuff (2005-present)*

*Chill come-up
*Can't tell if you are feeling it after 1.5 hours
*2nd dose creates a feeling of relaxation and sleepiness
*Sometimes cold
*Best thing to do is lay or sit with a blanket
*Music is not really enhanced
*No euphoria
*No enhanced tactile sensations or vision
*Minimal eye dilation, eye wiggles, & jaw clenching (and if you do get any eye wiggles or jaw clenching it just seems like an annoyance)
*Comedown involves brain zaps, nausea, indigestion, dizziness and starts the day after the roll and lasts for well over a week. 

I don't think it is nostalgia either. Too many people notice the exact same things.

In other news, I am still waiting for Edata to post the results of my sample. Hurry up already! I noticed they seem to be posting the actual MDMA dose in each pill. Is that new, or am I just reading it wrong?


----------



## G_Chem

^^Haha yup I remember back when I first really got into the festivals around here, a group of people who later became friends had a stuffed salmon (like a cushy pillow kind lol) and that fish was looked at like one of the gang.  Someone always had it from there out and watched out for it, and everyone had immense love for this fish.  It was great, I've got a pic of my girl rollin hard holding tight onto it.

I'd definitely say that's a good summary.  The rushing is one of the parts I love too.  Had a roll last summer with some typical high quality MDMA that had me feeling like I just kept building up and up it was so amazing.  I just kept breathing deeply and looking at my friends with that "holy shit" look on my face.  Danced so hard that night.

Lots of times on the come up I'll puke too from the sheer intensity of it but once I do I'm golden.  I almost expect it these days.  MDA too is a for sure puke on the come up while eyes cross and I talk profusely about anything that enters my mind.

The one thing I find interesting about the change is the increased and odd comedown/hangover effects that last longer and are stronger than before.  I wonder if this is due to the possible impurities present, the fact people take more because the positive effects are negated, or a combination of the two..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

The results are in!

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6072


----------



## indigoaura

G-Chem, I have had those nasty "hangover" effects from as little as two doses. I don't know if it is just about taking more. With the old stuff, I occasionally did 5-6 pills in a night, but I never had a hangover in the same way that I have had with the new stuff. Used to, if I overdid it, I may have a hard time sleeping and  may feel kind of "cracked out," but I was never _sick._


----------



## psy997

indigo, those results are for the meh stuff your friend tried, or good stuff?


----------



## indigoaura

Psy997, my guinea pig friend tried both the "meh" stuff (which I have had around since 2005) and this newer stuff from the DW. He liked this stuff better.  I have not tried this newer stuff yet. I have been waiting for the test result.

These test results are for the new stuff.


----------



## Hilopsilo

It seems everyone discussing in here have made your minds about that MDMA today is simply different than it was before. I have an incredibly, INCREDIBLY, hard time believing this, but you all seem to done some research. I'd love a summary of whats been truly discovered through this thread's discussion, what the reasoning, what is the evidence (NO anecdotes). I'm legitimately curious to learn, and if whats been discussed/discovered in this thread is so important to this topic, why not have the progress synthesized is a more meaningful way than having people just sift through pages of messages?

But here is what I have to say: Reading a lot of the recounted experiences in this thread from people who are positive that MDMA has changed since they began rolling many, many years ago, the listed effects sound just that of someone who either A.) rolled too much and now it doesn't feel the same. or B.) No longer have access to good MDMA as they once did (just because you don't have access to it doesn't mean it has ceased to exist).

I see stuff along the lines of "now the come-up isn't very intense". Anecdote versus anecdote here, but I've been rolling for ~8 years now. I've done a shit ton of drugs over the past 8 years (which may not be a lot compared to some of you), but to this day the most intense come-up of any drug for me, is still 100mg of good MDMA. I cannot fathom how that is just somehow nothing compared to how it used to be. Absolutely beautiful, potent and perfectly clean MDMA. 

A couple of times I have had the misfortune of taking MDMA that was weak, adulterated or simply another chemical entirely. These other chemicals are _nothing _to what MDMA is, they can poorly mimic the style of effects, but its black and white entirely, you know in an instant whether you've taken MDMA or not. It's an absolutely disgusting (even scary) feeling, its described perfectly right here: 





Le Junk said:


> just a fucked up carnival like sideshow buzz. A mere shell of its former self.



There is NOTHING that can come close to the deep, burning, almost god-like pure MDMA. Where I live we get large crystals of licorice smelling MDMA that 100mg of will absolutely knock you on your face. It has the power to break down each and every emotional wall within you, it unleashes everything that you've been scared to express before or felt you should keep deep down inside. It's pure empathy and love. I've never had a "comedown" from MDMA in the hundreds of time I've rolled on good MDMA, I basically feel like I'm in heaven until I easily drift off to sleep that night. It's incredibly therapeutic and I learn something new about myself every time, and as someone who has always struggled with expressing themselves emotionally, I become more connected and in touch with my emotions every time I roll. And it exists, right here in 2018, and depending on where you live, its not rare, at all.

As well, a lot of the anecdotes seem to fall for the same thing as all drug related anecdotes do; lack of accounting for set and setting. I can take the SAME LSD many months apart, and have 2 completely different experiences due to the infinite amount of variables at work; Which time was I more tired? Which time was a happier? Did I eat better one time? Was I more stressed one of the times? Etc. it could go on forever. It doesn't suggest any sort of inconsistency between the substance. I too have experienced "sleepy rolls", but how does that point to that the drug is different if I can't account for whether I was just more tired that day, my environment, my physical/mental state, etc. 

One occasion I rolled after finals week(s) at university in which I had been up incredibly late with little sleep, poor diet, stressed, etc. I rolled at a show to celebrate the end of finals, and I was exhausted during the roll. I felt amazing, it was perfectly good MDMA, but at the show I just wanted to sit, roll, and cuddle. I felt cold otherwise. This was entirely due to the how worn out I was. I know this for fact, since 2 months later when I was well rested, stress-free, exercising and eating well I took the exact same MDMA in the exact same dose and danced my ass of all night. 

Double blind study with identical doses of pure MDMA from "back in the day" and pure MDMA produced today is really the only way to prove anything here. Theres just so much bias everywhere I try to read in this thread. Every single account of how the "good ol' MDMA" is, is pretty identical to my experience today with good, pure MDMA. And every account of how bad MDMA is today, is identical to my experiences with shite/fake MDMA.

I'm incredibly surprised the availability of MDMA from the DN hasn't set this thread straight. 

EDIT: Jesus, and half this discussion is comparing fucking pressed pills. How are you supposed to keep anything consistent when the only points of reference are their hue which cartoon character they resemble


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> Guys,
> 
> Recently, I observed the effects of various oral doses of brownish "Dutch MDMA Crystals" in 4 different VIRGIN  subjects (30 - 60 year old) in a house-party social setting.
> 
> By "VIRGIN", I mean people that have never used MDMA before in their life nor any amphetamines, cocaine nor any anti-depressants nor RC.
> The crystalline powder was determined to contain MDxx by an immunoassay testkit, after 10^-6 mass dilution in distilled water.
> The  immunoassay testkit is highly specific to MDMA, MDA and MDEA but it  does not allow the differentiation between these 3 compounds.
> 
> The 4 oral doses were 100mg, 100mg, 130mg and 150mg.
> The onset of effects happened within 30min of ingestion and was characterized by visible sleepiness, in all four cases.
> 15min into the onset, the sleepiness suddenly receded and remaining effects lasted for 3-4h.
> *No PUPIL DILATION* ( mydriasis ) was observed for 4 hours in any of the subjects !!!
> A slight lockjaw ( trismus ) was observed IN ONLY ONE subject (a 38y, 85kg male and the 150mg dose).
> 
> SUBJECTIVE EFFECTS after the onset:
> Feeling of general well being in all subjects
> Analgesia of chronic back pain in one subject.
> Report of sobering up, in one subject who was drinking ethanol for two hours before ingesting the "Dutch MDMA crystals".
> Reports of euphoria and feeling of having energy ...but all subjects were sitting on a couch for 4h.
> Lucid but introverted ( "mongy" ) behavior in all subjects.
> Reports of hot/cold flashes and transient sweatiness of extremities slightly after the onset.
> No outward talkativeness in all subjects.
> No unusual empathy towards others visible from outside in all subjects.
> Report of increased tactile sensations from one subject.
> Reports of changed visual acuity in two subjects.
> 
> Is the above familiar to anyone here?
> Any feedback is welcomed...



I have massive doubts that what they were given was pure "Dutch MDMA crystal". 150mg of pure MDMA completely obliterates every single person I've ever seen take 150mg of pure MDMA. 

No pupil dilation? Ok c'moooooon. That just proves the MDMA used there was either low dosed or just fake. Why? Because every single time I've had perfectly good, pure MDMA (the kind that 100mg makes you rethink your whole fucking life, in a good way), my pupils fucking dilate! And so does everyone elses.And no, this MDMA is not from the 90's or whenever, its from 2018. 

Yes, I've had completely shite MDMA that did not cause me or anyone who took it to have dilated pupils, but that wasn't even what let us know it was BS, it simply didn't feel like MDMA, because it wasn't or was very poor MDMA.



Le Junk said:


> Here is a quick tell tell sign that you are doing modern day MDMA crap. Your pupils will only dilate to between 1/2 to 3/4 full. With old-school MDMA, your pupils would dilate all the way to the edge only leaving a microscopic sliver left of your eye color. End of story.



Lol if thats the designated metric here, next time I roll I'll get pictures of myself, my friends, and everyone else at the festival on good modern day MDMA with pupils that have entirely eclipsed the iris.

I've even had the absolute displeasure of (unknowingly) taking piperazine one time in a pressed pill, you want to see dilated pupils? cause thats how you get dilated pupils. Hell, I've even seen people with saucers from doing horribly adulterated cocaine. 

All good MDMA dilates pupils but not all dilated pupils are caused by good MDMA.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

[With my scientist (but not a chemist) hat on]

So there's a couple of people that have questioned the general direction of this thread so I hope we can bring some clarity to the argument.

The general assertion here is that currently available material sold as mdma or mda, is not functioning like it should, specifically with respect to past experiences or what has been published as to typical effects.

Various reports have been given and details/descriptions will be subjective and lacking standardisation.  But hopefully we can agree on some broad statements:

Assertion of bad 'mdma' is characterised commonly by:
* low energy or even sedation, as opposed to expected stimulant properties
* less to almost no euphoria
* substantially less physical sensation (e.g. rushes, or however you want to describe it)

additional claims are:
* less/no pupil dilation
* more product mass needed to produce an 'acceptable' experience
* reduced empathy
* reduced affect on music perception

Theories:
1) tolerance build up (temporary or otherwise)
2) psychological factors (mood, setting, placebo)
3) different molecules (i.e. recent material is not mdma, or old material wasn’t mdma)
4) different enantiomer ratio
5) missing augmentation chemicals (e.g. other stimulants)
6) incorrect mass estimation due to contaminants
7) active contaminants having negative effects


Additonal data as reported by users:
* current reagent tests are ok for modern mdma
* comparisons between good old batches and current batches: This thread opened with Le Junk saying they had mdma still from the 80s and it has desired effects, versus the poor effects described for modern mdma.  And this is the same person trying both supplies (which is why this thread is fundamentally more interesting than past discussions).  That information is compelling, I suppose it just comes down to whether you believe it or not.

Any or none of the theories could be correct, and are therefore worthy of testing, given that the topic is of great importance to many.  However, let’s have an initial examination of the theories

1) Tolerance build up: this would be invalidated by reports of contemporary usage of old and new batches with different effects.  Also, I’m not aware that tolerance could reach such levels unless reckless usage was done.  Yes, you have the phenomena of poop out for SSRIs but they are being used every day, and even then, there is individual variability.

2) Psychological factors.  Recreational drugs tend to have powerful effects (that’s why we like them).  Subjective enjoyment may change due to mood, setting, etc…, but differences of this size are hard to explain.  With regards to someone’s lsd comment - whatever the setting, I would still expect to have major visual distortions and physical sensations, regardless of the environment and whether or not I was enjoying it.  I suppose what I’m saying is that getting decent effects from mdma really shouldn't be as hard as holding an aerial out the window to get a decent picture on an old tv.

3) Old or new wasn’t mdma.  How good were old reagent testing kits?

4) Enantiomer ratio.  Think I will leave this to another post but there appears to be a general consensus that producing a non-racemic version would be tricky so hard to explain why there would be a difference.

6) Mass.  Nowadays there are large pills being sold, and there is this reported tendency of people needing what would be regarded as high to very high doses to get reasonable effects.  Assuming its not tolerance issues, this could be a contaminant skewing mass figures issue.

7) Active contaminants.  For me this feels like an option because it feels like there’s an ‘almost there’ quality of current mdma, and I wonder if there is a sedating contaminant conflicting the mdma.  Just an idea.


Testing the hypotheses

1) Tolerance: very difficult I think.  Would need a large and long cohort study with different regimes to really prove it.  Could do an epidemiological study I guess but they risk incorrect conclusions because of confounding factors.

2) Psychological factors: double blind controlled environment study (as has been suggested).  Tricky to get that done and you would need to know what was different chemically about your batches for the results to mean much

3, 4, 5, 6 and 7) At least preliminary data could be obtained by properly lab testing different samples.  The test would need to give a breakdown of all the constituents, their mass and by enantiomer. e.g.:

R-MDMA 51.2mg
S-MDMA 50.3mg
Chem x 2.5mg
Chem y 3.7mg
Chem z 1.1mg

Seeing results from different samples will at least give some indication of what is out there.  And if we can correlate to user reports then maybe that holds some validity.


----------



## Hilopsilo

So, the only evidence we have that "its not me its the MDMA" is one guy who'd been rolling for 30 years that claims they have 30 y/o MDMA and it doesn't feel the same compared to whatever it is they have access to now? Cause the other 6 theories ("its you not the MDMA") very plausibly fall under either lack of access to quality product or longterm tolerance/"lost the magic"/rose-colored glasses. I don't see anything there that  definitively rules any of that out.

This all reminds me of something that happened a couple months ago; one of my good friend's favorite candy is "Shocktarts", he would always complain about how they don't have Shocktarts here in Canada. I really liked Shocktarts too, and they do sell "Sweet Tarts Chewy Sours" in stores here and they taste exactly the same to me. He was sooo stubborn that they do not taste the same and are not the same candy. I was reading the back of a roll of them, and in small print "Previously Shocktarts", they had simply been rereleased under the sweettarts brand. I looked it up and what do ya know, they are the EXACT same candy, just rebranded under a different name after the 1990's. After this, he tried them again, and reluctantly admitted that maybe they are the same, he now buys a pack of them everyday.

Testing the hypotheses

1.) I'll feed one of these old farts some good 'ol Canadian MDMA and they can try to tell me with a straight face that they feel "less to almost no euphoria", and you can't pretend your pupils aren't dilating


----------



## G_Chem

First I must ask, have you read the entire thread? We do come to some interesting conclusions as it progresses beyond the posts you quoted.

While I'll agree there's some really definitive statements throughout (i.e. All MDMA these days is shit, etc) that I've tried my best to give some perspective on, if you really sift through all the evidence and actually have an understanding chemistry it becomes obvious there's been some general changes to production over the years that correlate well with complaints of MDMA "changing."

I'm in the same boat as you brother, get beautiful Canadian MDMA that will rock you.  I'm 13yrs in and still roll harder than lots of newbies but I've also taken great care to make sure that happened.  But we are apparently some of luckier ones out there and/or it's a geographical problem.  It seems most complaints relate to Dutch MDMA and that's specifically what we are addressing here.

Our Canadian MDMA is likely derived from safrole, with each intermediate produced and purified in the lab the final product will come from. Safrole is still easy'ish (relatively) to obtain on this continent.  Dutch MDMA and likely other European countries seem to have taken to PMK glycidate made in China.  The intermediate is likely used as is to create MDMA and as we've discussed earlier in this thread it's almost certainly not going to be pure..  I could go on but I'd be repeating myself, really read the rest of thread please.

If a few people can't get good product anymore that could be written off as bad or no connects, but since the drought of the late 00's the complaints (especially in the blue light regional forum) have skyrocketed despite lab testing showing high dosage pills.  We can't really brush it off anymore, I'm a believer and I've never consumed this mongy MDMA (although I've watched people take Dutch presses with little effects even when lab tested at 150+mg..)

On the plus side, I've noticed a recent turnaround in quality in the European regional MDMA thread, it seems they weren't all burnt out after all.. Just getting sub standard MDMA.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

I've read a good portion of it, just the amount of bias, anecdotes, and what is basically MDMA "gatekeeping" (_you havent had *real* mdma unless you rolled in the 80's) _started to do my head in lol. It just seems somewhat illogical to get into all this chemistry stuff if we can't even pin down that there _even_ _is _a difference to begin with.

I've also had dutch MDMA from the DW and it was just as good. Hell, who's to say a lot of the Canadian MDMA isn't just imported Dutch MDMA? Either way, incredible quality MDMA flows like water in Canada, maybe it is a geographical problem, but the assertion that MDMA itself is different now just because you rolled harder 30 years ago is just irrational.

100mg of pure MDMA is 100mg of pure MDMA, the same goes for all drugs, why would MDMA be the exception (I've heard stuff about ketamine isomers, but even then, the differences are minute compared to how people in this thread seem to the think MDMA has changed). Pressed pills? All bets are off. Theres a reason they practically don't exist in certain places. they became so inconsistent, adulterated and sketchy nobody would even buy them.


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## Sir Ron Pib

So the "Modern has a sooner onset (< 30mins vs 50mins)" and from another 'The new stuff (2005-present) Can't tell if you are feeling it after 1.5 hours' - well glad to see we are all singing from the same hymn book. There are plausible differences in MDMA but I agree atavism and warm memories of gurning 30 years back might be the most infallible way of assessing all this


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## psy997

I've had pure, tested MDMA that was exactly as is described here. Total shit. At the time I thought it had to have been something else, and, having had 2-3 experiences since, I'm no longer convinced.

Hilopsilo, I hate to bring in something from another thread, but, I am. You're young, as am I, and, being young it's easy to fall into definitives and rigid systems of thought that don't allow for unusual and bizarre circumstances to exist. If reading the entire thread, and even just having a sample of the reports coming out around the world, you're not convinced. I'm sorry, but it's you.

EDIT: In fact, you can most likely find a post of mine demeaning the entire theory somewhere very early in this thread. It's either in this one or the Acid/Fluff/Needlepoint one.


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## Hilopsilo

Probably thousands of people roll everyday with good, pure MDMA everyday, no amount of anecdotes from the handful old heads in this thread is going to convince me, and it shouldn't convince anyone, its not evidence.

Thats the other thing, I keep reading in here about "tested, pure MDMA". You could mix baby powder with MDMA 10:1 ratio and it would still test as "pure MDMA", that doesn't mean it's potent or strong. There was an anecdote in here saying that someone took 150mg of tested pure dutch MDMA and the subjects eyes didn't even dilate; thats just piss-poor MDMA. 

I'd say the opposite is true, being old it is easier "to fall into definitives and rigid systems of thought", just look at politics, religion, what age demographics are progressive, etc. Old people are much less likely to change their longheld views and ideologies. Either way I don't see how thats relevant here. And if anything is "falling into definitives", its believing and defining that something is wrong with ALL MDMA around the world produced in the last X amount of years and it couldn't possibly _just be you. _

Come-up times? Another thing that depends entirely on external factors. I once ate an entire bag of rice cakes before rolling, and it took like 2.5 hours to kick in. On an empty stomach I feel the hot tingle on the back of my neck in 30 min flat. A friend of mine who I've rolled with ~20 times always comes up about 20-30 minutes after I do, just a slow metabolism. If anything I find fake shit to take a long time to kick in, like this sinister, disgusting stimulating feeling that creeps in slowly. 

I'm confused psy, so you're saying you changed your mind? What changed your mind?

And just like G-Chem mentioned, the MDMA in canada is just fine, and I think you all would change your mind if you had it. He mentions that its likely derived from safrole, so I guess maybe I need to understand exactly what the "thesis" here is; is it that "all MDMA now has something wrong with it" or that "MDMA not derived from safrole has something wrong with it"? Because 99% of the MDMA I've taken has that aniseed smell and has been nothing short of godly. It's all the same here, just big fat aniseed smelling crystals. I may be "young", but I've been rolling for nearly a decade now and have gotten fake/adulterated "molly" enough times to tell the difference, like many have said in this thread, it IS night and day.

EDIT: Idk, probably pointless me trying to argue with you all, shugenja and Kaden_Nite's take on all this in the SALT thread really has it nailed down.


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## indigoaura

Hi Hilopsilo,

From reading your posts, I think you have a few misconceptions. I understand that the thread is long, and we were all talking in another thread for awhile too, so maybe some important points got lost somewhere.

#1. I have never understood the argument to be "all new mdma is bad." On the contrary, old-timer users like Le Junk have stated the opposite. My understanding is that there is plenty of legitimate MDMA out there that produces the expected effects, but there is also some "bad/mongy" MDMA going around as well. The problem is that there is currently no testing kit or lab that seems to reliably show the difference between the two.

#2. I have personally sent samples to the lab of what I consider to be "good" MDMA and "bad" MDMA and the laboratory shows both products as MDMA. I am not talking about one time use. I am talking about many similar experiences over the course of years. Not just by me either, but by friends as well. For example, no eye dilation or minimal eye dilation on 200 mg of MDMA that was tested by a lab and shown to be MDMA. No euphoria on 200 mg etc. And no, set and setting does not explain it when many people report the same thing across multiple experiences.

#3. "I'll feed one of these old farts some good 'ol Canadian MDMA and they can try to tell me with a straight face that they feel "less to almost no euphoria", and you can't pretend your pupils aren't dilating." Well, that is the point. We agree with you. If you take MDMA, then you know you took MDMA because it has certain reliable effects such as eye dilation and euphoria. That is really the whole point. If you are taking something and it is NOT producing those effects, then something is not right. But the complication here is that laboratories are saying the "bunk" stuff IS MDMA. (Also, I'm up for the challenge!  Send some my way!)

#4. For the first five years of my MDMA use, I would have said the exact same thing as you. MDMA is MDMA. Get a testing kit, send it to a lab, but if a product is MDMA then it is good. It is hard to believe otherwise when that has been your only experience. There are many people, however, who are noting a new trend where that is not the case, and we want to know WHY.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, Hilopsilo...

Safrole is illegal and highly restricted here in America. Chemists here are being forced to turn to alternative production methods. I have only smelled MDMA that smells like aniseed or safrole 2 times since 2005. The other stuff I have access to does not smell like anything. And, I agree with your statement that when it has that smell it is "nothing short of godly."

If I had to write a thesis statement for this thread it would be: "Alternative production methods have resulted in the creation of sub-par MDMA with less than ideal effects and increased risk for negative side effects."


----------



## Hilopsilo

America is a big place, but in the PNW/Canada, the huge crystals that smell of anissed/safrole from across the room are rampant, I get butterflies just thinking about the smell! It's rare to find something thats not like that here IME, and generally most people are wary of buying anything that isn't like that. I probably wouldn't take anything that isn't like that just because of bad experiences with fake/adulterated MDMA pre-2013. (although, I have gotten DW mdma that was perfectly fine that didn't have as strong of a smell, but it was also crushed finely and in a very small amount).



G_Chem said:


> I'd say if someone thinks ALL product nowadays is crap then they are burnt out from a drug known to be neurotoxin, but for those that find certain batches to deliver yet others don't then obviously it's the product your finding.



QFT

To say definitively that perfectly good MDMA isn't out there and still being produced just makes my blood boil. Everyone deserves good MDMA!


----------



## indigoaura

Hi Hilopsilo,

I certainly cannot speak for all of America. All I know is that my access has been limited since 2005. I'm not connected, that's for sure. The product I have had access to was sent to a lab. The lab said it was MDMA, but it does not produce the same effects. That is what I know to be true, and at least a half dozen people I know have the same observations as me. The lab did show the presence of a manufacturing byproduct, so perhaps that is the factor here. That is one of our hypothesis, that adulterants are somehow interfering in absorption/processing for some people.

I absolutely think it is a product issue. Here is my question for you though...what does someone like me do? I have utilized all of the known safeguards - testing kit, lab test etc. All of those safeguards say my product is MDMA. I have experimented with doses. It just does not do the same thing as the kind of MDMA you have access to.

So, why would that be the case? I would think I'd blown my neurons if it was just me, but it is not just me. 

(and yes, I get butterflies thinking about that smell too)

Isn't it a safety concern that there is something being sold as MDMA, that laboratories say is MDMA, but it does not produce the same effect as MDMA and has a nasty comedown? To add to that concern...some of these alternatives to safrole may have carcinogenic adulterants present.


----------



## indigoaura

Let me put this another way...

My cat has urinary retention problems and needs medication in order to urinate. When I buy the name-brand medication from the vet, it works as expected. Cat urinates. Everyone is happy. These pills are soft and dissolve well in water.

When I buy the off-brand medication from Walgreens, it does not work as expected. Cat can't urinate. No one is happy. These pills are hard and don't dissolve as well in water.

Same chemical. Same amount. Same label. Clearly one works correctly and one does not.

Same thing here.

(and it's not "set and setting" for the cat)


----------



## Hilopsilo

As far as reagent tests go, its been well defined in this thread that the reagent test only tests for the presence of MDMA, not how much is in there or how pure it is. Like I said, you could mix 80mg of baby powder with 20mg of MDMA, and a reagent test would still tell you its MDMA. But you'd take that 100mg of "MDMA" and it would be weak as shit.

I'd certainly want to know more abut the "lab test" results. I don't know anything about lab tests, but if the extent of the returned results were "This is MDMA, but there is also manufacturing byproduct in it" isn't very conclusive. How much byproduct? how much MDMA is there? What is this byproduct? 

To me it seems pretty clear, there is just really weak MDMA out there that tests positive as MDMA. And it could be weak for the same reason any street drug might be weak; poor craftsmanship and/or inactive cutting agents. To blame all this on the precursor, which the most knowledgable person on chemistry here by a longshot thinks is most certainly NOT the issue here, is pretty illogical.


----------



## Hilopsilo

I'm trying to find out if MDMA that has been made with PMK also has the aniseed/licorice smell that stuff made with saffrole does?

Cause it seems the easiest way of investigating this would be to find two batches of MDMA, one made with saffrole and one made from PMK, both high quality and synthesized properly, and simply compare them from there. If MDMA make from PMK doesn't have the licorice smell, this wouldn't hard to figure out.


----------



## MD96

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is a bleach white crystalline powder that lays like snow.  It's extremely fine in texture but lays fluffy just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  Of course the eye wiggles and chattiness etc.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to the current day street pills experience.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  And both of these pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  They seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Big big giveaway that youre doing crap.
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!



You're saying i've done both the "orange tesla's" and the "red surpremes"
Pill form doesnt say anything. Anyone can make any pillform.
Having the same pillform as an online trip report doesnt mean you're taking the same pill.


----------



## G_Chem

Alright Hilo I'll respond more tonight but quickly...

Yes safrole MDMA has that characteristic "aniseed" smell whereas the Dutch product does not.  This has been documented for many years now.  You can actually see the difference with reagents too, Marquis tests with a purple color if there's even the slightest amount of safrole present whereas Dutch PMK glycidate product goes jet black no purple.

Also when some says "lab tested" that means getting a full GCMS report which indicates simply active substances found (America) or if your in Europe they also give dosage.  When I quote a dosage of 150mg that's a lab tested amount.

Sure pills can change but when you've got certain pills that are consistently lab tested as a certain high dosage of MDMA and only MD and also consistently looked upon as bad pills then we've gotta think harder on the subject.

Pure MDMA is indeed pure MDMA but illicit product is never pure.  Even your stinky aniseed crystals are likely rather impure (smell should be minimal, only evident upon cracking open a crystal.)  Also that thread with shunenja and Kaden is old news my man, we're well past that.  If you notice shunenja ain't around anymore, it's cuz he got schooled and went home...

Back later,

-GC


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## indigoaura

Hilopsilo, no offense, but it is repeatedly clear that you have not read the whole thread, followed the links etc. If you had read the whole thread, the questions you are asking would already be answered. I can't even tell if you are reading the replies that people are writing to you. 

As G_Chem said, lab tested means that an actual lab did GCMS analysis of the product. Here in America, it is ecstasydata.org that people send their product to.


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## G_Chem

At work but I find it interesting that both Hilo and myself live in the northern part of the country and obviously we're doing ok up here, whereas people farther south are having trouble.  Canadian product must get eaten up before it makes it down that way.  Indigo your from the south ain't ya?

We should have LeJunk put a disclaimer in the first post telling people what pages important information is presented, that may help others better sift through the pages upon pages of debate.

Also Hilo PM me if ya can man, I've got an unrelated question for you and can't seem to send out messages (at least on my current platform.). Thanks.

-GC


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## xZeroxCoolx

I?ve definitely had the white crystalline powder the OP is referring to.. most of the best nights of my life were on that powder.

The red supremes he is talking about however.. I bought 10 pills back in December so same batch.. the first time my wife and I took them was in December.. we had a wonderful night.. we were all loved up on each other and made love just like you would expect from a nostalgic MDMA experience.. just like in the 90?s which is when I started rolling.

The second time I tried one I spent half the night puking my guts out and had no empathy or any of the stuff I love about mdma.. these experiences were 2 months apart..so tolerance was definitely not the issue.

I think as we get older what we have in our bodies the days and even weeks leading up to the experience matter ALOT more than it did 30 years ago.. I also think 200+mg per pill is too much in general.. no matter which pre cursor you use to get to the final product.

The white crystalline powder mdma is definitely a special product.. I have never had a bad experience on it.. and it has never left me feeling like shit the day after. I haven?t had it in 15 years though so who knows if it?s possible for me to have a bad experience on it now.. I will probably never know.


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## psy997

That's actually a good point. It's totally possible that potential by-products can have varying degrees of effect depending on the current state of the user's body, ala food intake, nutrient deficiencies, supplements, sleep, genetics, etc.


----------



## indigoaura

psy997 said:


> That's actually a good point. It's totally possible that potential by-products can have varying degrees of effect depending on the current state of the user's body, ala food intake, nutrient deficiencies, supplements, sleep, genetics, etc.



Seems more likely that there may be varying degrees of by-product in the product if the manufacturing process was questionable. Although body chemistry certainly varies significantly from person to person, I don't know if it changes that significantly in the same person from day to day. At least, not so much that entirely different responses to the same stimulus would occur.


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> At work but I find it interesting that *both Hilo and myself live in the northern part of the country and obviously we're doing ok up here*, whereas people farther south are having trouble.  Canadian product must get eaten up before it makes it down that way.  Indigo your from the south ain't ya?
> 
> We should have LeJunk put a disclaimer in the first post telling people what pages important information is presented, that may help others better sift through the pages upon pages of debate.
> 
> Also Hilo PM me if ya can man, I've got an unrelated question for you and can't seem to send out messages (at least on my current platform.). Thanks.
> 
> -GC



And that is the only point I'm trying to make here, to say that the only good MDMA came from the 90's is complete and utter arrogant bullshit. It's basically MDMA gatekeeping (check out r/gatekeeping if you don't know what I mean). 

Maybe you're all way past that, cause I believe it is 100% fact that there is plenty of good MDMA (as you allude to G_Chem), just as good as the "old stuff", why some of it sucks, I don't know. 

I've pretty much read the whole thread at this point, had to take it in small bits cause some of it was so painful to read lol (since _i haven't found good mdma since the90's, it's just all different now, it must all be bad. See? Look, this guy said he felt "mongy" too! proof."). _Last but not least, mongy isn't even a real word!! I don't think those other people "got schooled", I think they just gave up trying to convince anyone otherwise since a lot of people in the discussion had their mind made up that nothing today could stand up to their superior MDMA and superior raving days. 

I understand that the aniseed smell is technically an "impurity", but I was also reading, not sure if it was this thread or not, but that the chemical is so strong that even trace amount will produce a strong smell. I imagine "medical grade" MDMA has no smell, but in the world of illicit substances, the stinky MDMA is the best. Now, I have gotten a variety of fake MDMA that has had interesting sort of _similar _
smells, like a weird spice or perfume, but it isn't that same smell. The smell being off is just as obvious as the effects being totally off.

I'll send a PM!

And I'll check out the posts that LE_Junk thinks are important, although I'm skeptical considerings he's the leader of the all-mdma-is-mongy-these-kids-don't-know sentiment.


----------



## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> And that is the only point I'm trying to make here, to say that the only good MDMA came from the 90's is complete and utter arrogant bullshit. It's basically MDMA gatekeeping (check out r/gatekeeping if you don't know what I mean).



I don't think G_Chem or indigo have said that once, Hilopsilo.


----------



## Hilopsilo

psy997 said:


> I don't think G_Chem or indigo have said that once, Hilopsilo.



Yes, I was agreeing with G_Chem. But a lot of previous posters have expressed this, but maybe we have moved past that.



psy997 said:


> That's actually a good point. It's totally possible that potential by-products can have *varying degrees of effect depending on the current state of the user's body, ala food intake, nutrient deficiencies, supplements, sleep, genetics, etc*.



I 100% agree with this, not even just byproducts, but mind altering substances in general. FWIW, personally, the energy I have when I roll is highly dependent on how well rested and healthy I am. I have much better experiences with drugs (and life in general) when I am exercising, happy with my life, eating well and get enough damn sleep lol.

I posted in here earlier about an experience when I took MDMA after a grueling 2-3 weeks of studying for finals (stress, lack of sleep, lack of good nutrition, etc.) and I think I sat down for 90% of the roll lol.


----------



## indigoaura

> And that is the only point I'm trying to make here, to say that the only good MDMA came from the 90's is complete and utter arrogant bullshit.



If you think this has been the point, then you are still missing the point. 

I don't recall ever getting that impression from this thread. 

That has never been my point.

The discussion of previous eras of MDMA has been in an attempt to understand _when_ manufacturing methods changed, in an attempt to understand what is happening with *SOME* of today's product.

And, you focusing on Le Junk shows how much you have skimmed. He has consistently vocalized that he continues to have access to quality product. He is the one that has said that quality product is still out there!

I am not sure what offends you so much. You have consistent access to quality product. _*Count yourself lucky.*_ Your experience is not everyone's experience. Why is it offensive to you that other people are having a different experience than you? If you don't like the thread, then move on. No big deal.

To insist that everyone out there must be having the same experience as you is exactly what you are accusing other people of doing. 

And no offense, but we are seasoned drug users. We are familiar with how rest, nutrition, full-stomach, stress, depression etc. impact our drug experiences. We have all had experiences like your finals night. We have had many of them. We know what that is like. This is something different than that.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> If you think this has been the point, then you are still missing the point.
> 
> I don't recall ever getting that impression from this thread.
> 
> That has never been my point.
> 
> The discussion of previous eras of MDMA has been in an attempt to understand _when_ manufacturing methods changed, in an attempt to understand what is happening with *SOME* of today's product.
> 
> And, you focusing on Le Junk shows how much you have skimmed. He has consistently vocalized that he continues to have access to quality product. He is the one that has said that quality product is still out there!
> 
> I am not sure what offends you so much. You have consistent access to quality product. _*Count yourself lucky.*_ Your experience is not everyone's experience. Why is it offensive to you that other people are having a different experience than you? If you don't like the thread, then move on. No big deal.
> 
> To insist that everyone out there must be having the same experience as you is exactly what you are accusing other people of doing.
> 
> And no offense, but we are seasoned drug users. We are familiar with how rest, nutrition, full-stomach, stress, depression etc. impact our drug experiences. We have all had experiences like your finals night. We have had many of them. We know what that is like. This is something different than that.



Nothing offends me here, you're right, the recent conversation has certainly evolved from how it initially was, my apologies. I think I found the handful of useful more recent pages I had missed.


----------



## indigoaura

Hi Hilopsilo,

The simple answer is: we don't know. 

I think the top contenders thus far (not in order) are enantiomer ratio, impurities (both active and inactive), & polymorphs. This thread goes into it too: http://bluelight.org/vb/threads/837314-Factors-That-Make-Each-MDMA-Batch-and-Experience-Unique

Also, someone posted a list of all the compounds that are close enough to MDMA to possibly seem like MDMA to a lab, without actually being MDMA. I would have to dig to find the post. 

I think one of the ideas that has the most weight is the idea that impurities in the precursor are getting carried into the final product and disrupting the absorption/effect somehow.

Edited to add: I would like to see a plan developed to get these issues explored through a more advanced laboratory so that we have concrete information to work with.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Ok, on a non-argumentative note, can anyone confirm that MDMA that has been made from PMK does or does not have the same strong aniseed smell as stuff made from safrole? In all my experience with MDMA, the one thing that holds true for me is that the aniseed smelling crystals are 100% of the time very potent and effective, I've never come across supposed MDMA that had "the smell" that was weak or bunk. Not that it would be impossible to somehow fake that smell, but it does seem to hold true.

I've actually got a collection of bunk/ground score "molly" I've found over the years, probably have at least 20 different samples lol. It comes in all textures, smells, sizes and colors. A lot of it comes up completely inconclusive with a reagent test kit, don't know what it is, but keep it for the science I guess.


----------



## indigoaura

Hi Hilopsilo,

I can confirm that this product: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2644 is NOT derived from safrole and has no odor. This is the product I have had access to that does not provide the expected MDMA experience.


----------



## montel

SympatheticMD said:


> I think maybe you need to write a thesis about all this stuff.
> 
> I forgot about how the old "X" hit me, so your old posts were nice reminder.  That is actually a defining feature of the stuff I took in the late 80s.  I don't remember how long it took to hit me, but it must have been fairly short because the group  would take it and then stare at each other asking who felt it first.  We didn't walk around and have a drink and forget we had taken it.  *And then when it started, it was almost too much to take.  I'd have to curl up in a ball with every muscle tight, holding somebody's hand while they swore I would be ok.  And then poof! like a fart, my entire body would relax and love absolutely everything it came in contact with. *
> It was seriously an intense transition.  And I always got what felt like a very real crush on someone I had hung out with on the drug.  And the crush lasted for weeks.  So I was in full support of therapists using it for couples.  I can imagine it keeping a couple together for years (perhaps that is artificial and drug-dependent, but at least you are loving the one your with instating of yelling at them for stupid shit)



You've described exactly how I felt when I took mdma for the first time in 1993 - some Doves from the previous year that had been lying around (the owner had them but didn't take them) I took them twice, the first time was exactly as you described. The second time, same Dove, good but I never again got that "wow, I suddenly love everyone!" feeling - like an intense rush - I still remember that vividly, the rest is mostly a blur. I'm not even at the end of this thread but a lot of what's been discussed seems to rely on all the clandestine labs adopting the same synthesis at roughly the same time? This makes no sense, they can't all be connected in some way. Some yes, but very few. If it were the case then one lab bust would bring down most of the criminal network in one fell swoop. There are numerous reports of labs being busted in Holland yet the market has never been disrupted. Setting up an illegal laboratory and finding the right chemist - more importantly, a chemist willing to actually do it - it's all completely random. Therefore, mdma, from the day it was synthesised to present day is a random process - batches and effects will vary wildly depending on which route a chemist has chosen. They can't all be synchronised.

The more I read this thread I still can't fathom the "It's lost its magic" argument - I don't think it's the drug that's changed, it's the person. Having experimented on occasion for over 25 years (years of heavy use, years of very light use, many years of no use, etc) it is my understanding of the drug that has changed, grown even, over the years. I can only say that the only way you will find that lost magic is to stop looking for it - accept that as you get older many of the doors it opened before close, one by one, each time you take it. It's not the drug that's changed, it's the user. 

I think Shulgin was right (someone else posted this earlier) that you only really get that pure mdma experience 10 times in your life. From my experience I think someone would have to space it out around 6-7 years to come close to feeling that magic each time. I'm not convinced that 3 months is enough, it may be safe but you won't get the intensity. I remember taking a 4-5 year break and that first pill I took after all those years was pure unadulterated bliss (the original tiny white dominoes) The empathy and love was strong - but not after... strong, pleasant, of course - but you really need to completely forget the experience to get the most out of it the next time around.

(I'm not saying I'm right here, it's just my own experience)


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> Hi Hilopsilo,
> 
> I can confirm that this product: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2644 is NOT derived from safrole and has no odor. This is the product I have had access to that does not provide the expected MDMA experience.
> 
> I personally have seen, smelled, and used this product and I sent it to the lab as well.



Wow, yeah 150mg should be plenty even if a small bit of it is precursor. Has anyone else sent in stuff that tested as straight MDMA but wasn't a good experience?

So since you took that batch, have you taken any others with any more success? How long before that was the last time you had a proper experience? Was that good experience with the smelly safrole kind?

I saw you mentioned you were getting some from DW, if so, might be worth trying to get some made from safrole specifically. I don't bother with the DW anymore, but I remember there being Canadian vendors. I think the next step is finding MDMA that *does* produce for you the expected experience to compare the stuff that doesn't with



SympatheticMD said:


> And then when it started, it was almost too much to take. I'd have to curl up in a ball with every muscle tight, holding somebody's hand while they swore I would be ok. And then poof! like a fart, my entire body would relax and love absolutely everything it came in contact with.
> It was seriously an intense transition.



Wow that is exactly how my come up is every time, at least you know its good when that happens. No matter how much I prepare myself, it catches me off guard.


----------



## montel

G_Chem said:


> Alright Hilo I'll respond more tonight but quickly...
> 
> Yes safrole MDMA has that characteristic "aniseed" smell whereas the Dutch product does not.



The "Dutch Bangers" are pressed with a press powered by the full force of a Sherman tank, I think? That's why they don't break, they snap.
Soft crumbly pills tend to stink, hard press (much) less so. I remember some mdma crystals from a couple of years back that stank so much of aniseed it made you want to throw up. It was either German or Dutch, at a random guess.


----------



## indigoaura

Hi Hilopsilo,

Yes, other people have sent in stuff that was not a good experience that showed up as MDMA. I cannot recall who it was, and as you know, it is a long thread to dig through!

I had access to good product from 2000 to 2005. Then, there were changes in my area and the seller retired. During that period, I always had pills that smelled of safrole. As you mentioned, yes, there were variations in the experience, but it was clearly always MDMA. There were varying levels of intensity depending on the pills strength, but it was very reliable. 

2005 was a long time ago, and I do not recall how long the break was between the pills and this second product. I know it took me quite a while to find another seller. But, from that point forward I accessed the powder that I linked above. I have never had the same type of experience with that powder. I have had pleasant experiences, but it is like a different drug. Other friends agree. 

I can tell you that in the past decade, I have 6 month to 1 year breaks between experiences. 

Also, yes, I have had very brief access to other products that smelled right that were better. 

The product I ordered from the DW specifically said it was derived from safrole, that is why I chose it. It smells right, but I have not tried it yet. 

Most of the Canadian products look good, but they only ship to Canada unfortunately. 

I will definitely update people when I try this DW product. 

Montel: there are reports of multiple brand-new users consuming the questionable product and reporting no empathy and no eye dilation. It is not a tolerance issue. Especially when some of the long-time users have tried both products and observe a quantifiable, distinct difference in the two products. If you can have a traditional roll off one product, and you don't roll off another product then it is a product issue and not a user issue. The question is why laboratories and regeant tests cannot tell the difference currently.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> Hi Hilopsilo,
> 
> Yes, other people have sent in stuff that was not a good experience that showed up as MDMA. I cannot recall who it was, and as you know, it is a long thread to dig through!
> 
> I had access to good product from 2000 to 2005. Then, there were changes in my area and the seller retired. During that period, I always had pills that smelled of safrole. As you mentioned, yes, there were variations in the experience, but it was clearly always MDMA. There were varying levels of intensity depending on the pills strength, but it was very reliable.
> 
> 2005 was a long time ago, and I do not recall how long the break was between the pills and this second product. I know it took me quite a while to find another seller. But, from that point forward I accessed the powder that I linked above. I have never had the same type of experience with that powder. I have had pleasant experiences, but it is like a different drug. Other friends agree.
> 
> I can tell you that in the past decade, I have 6 month to 1 year breaks between experiences.
> 
> Also, yes, I have had very brief access to other products that smelled right that were better.
> 
> The product I ordered from the DW specifically said it was derived from safrole, that is why I chose it. It smells right, but I have not tried it yet.
> 
> Most of the Canadian products look good, but they only ship to Canada unfortunately.
> 
> I will definitely update people when I try this DW product.
> 
> Montel: there are reports of multiple brand-new users consuming the questionable product and reporting no empathy and no eye dilation. It is not a tolerance issue. Especially when some of the long-time users have tried both products and observe a quantifiable, distinct difference in the two products. If you can have a traditional roll off one product, and you don't roll off another product then it is a product issue and not a user issue. The question is why laboratories and regeant tests cannot tell the difference currently.



I wish ya goodluck. Cause I think the only way to get consistency here is for someone to have access to both "types" and to compare them subjectively. And once the difference in subjective effects between two accessible batches in pinned down, lab tests could shed more light maybe.

While I certainly don't agree with Montel, I don't think *new users* are a reliable source of anecdotes here. New users coming here and saying they got no empathy or euphoria only makes me only think impurity. Outside of this thread, this section of the forum is damn warzone lol, everyday I see new posts from new users who just took like an entire gram of some random powder they were told was MDMA and have now fucked themselves up. I think its safe to say that one is much more likely to come post on this forum if you have questions/issues with your mdma experience than if you have access to good product and all is well. Anecdotes are difficult to work with considering MDMA is one of the more notoriously impure/adulterated drugs with the most misinformation surrounding it.


----------



## montel

indigoaura said:


> Montel: there are reports of multiple brand-new users consuming the questionable product and reporting no empathy and no eye dilation. It is not a tolerance issue. Especially when some of the long-time users have tried both products and observe a quantifiable, distinct difference in the two products. If you can have a traditional roll off one product, and you don't roll off another product then it is a product issue and not a user issue. The question is why laboratories and regeant tests cannot tell the difference currently.



In the UK by any chance? I remember those dark piperazine/bzp days and some batches of mdma that did absolutely nothing but tested positive for mdma (marquis) I can confirm first hand that I tested at least two or three batches and witnessed this myself. Good mdma tested inky purple then black. This stuff went straight to black and fizzed (at the time people would post on pillreports that this fizzing was a sign of "pure mdma" - utter nonsense. I tested it, I took it. It did nothing except keep you awake for ages feeling uncomfortable - hot/cold sweats were typical)  I stress again the mdma did absolutely nothing, it was junk. 

I guess it's called trying to make some easy money - I had to supply my dealer with a test kit, but I don't think he really cared as long as he could sell it. He sure as hell wasn't giving refunds. All connected to the same people who introduced piperazine pills on the market. Remember the pink star shaped pills - that did nothing? VW's, Mitsubishis, Hearts, etc. The majority of them could be easily identified with a quick test, but there were also some pills (the white hearts spring to mind) that passed the marquis test and, again, did nothing. - Ironically the last decent pills I remember in the Uk that absolutely stank of safrole were green hearts from the same pressers a few months before the drought kicked in - fantastic pills, in every sense - you really could smell the safrole from distance. 

I always find it strange that SE England is considered the wealthiest area of the UK, yet the quality of street drugs was nothing short of horrendous. I don't just mean pills - skunk, hashish, just about all of it (I mean specifically the stuff sold in bulk) was nothing short of poison. I always joked at the time that if the suppliers could remove the bit that kills you then they'd happily sell rat poison. Likewise, the criteria for skunk seemed to be "Is it green?" "Yes" "Okay, that will do."

Sure, there was some decent stuff around somewhere (of course) but it really was few and far between - I'd say 90% of it was plain toxic. I left the UK in 2008 before things returned to some sense of normality. This experience is from 1993 - 2008. Pills enjoyed the best run, throughout the 1990s and early 2000s. They were great until piperazines flooded the market. I've often theorised about why it happened but I keep coming back to the same conclusion - pills dropped so far down in price it wasn't worth the risk. Before the drought I was getting good beans for as little as a couple of quid. When the prices hit rock bottom things changed because I'm guessing the risks didn't outweigh the reward anymore for those producing mdma in large quantities. Again though, this is very specific to SE London. Holland was largely unaffected at the time (although actual consumption clearly dropped significantly) which completely disproves the bizarre "China's hosting the Olympics and they're clamping down on chemical exports" (wtf?!) false-rumours that were being spread around at that time - to try and increase the sale of this fake mdma.

"Man you had some crappy dealers!" - Indeed, and I can assure you they were everywhere. I've lost count of how many I must have met in that timeframe, but certainly between 50-100 over a 15 year period. The problem is that, like I said, many of them just didn't care - and, perhaps more tragically, a lot of people didn't notice. I remember one night doing a house move with my other half and I suggested we drop some pills (bzp/pipes) We knew full well they were bunk as I'd tested them - by around midnight we'd both completely forgotten we'd even taken anything. What's really interesting (yet thoroughly sad) is that at the start of the evening I'd visited a dealer and his girlfriend was on the sofa claiming she was high as a kite from the very same pills I'd tested as bzp/pipes earlier. They did nothing (at all) yet she was there thinking she was rolling on mdma. Bonkers. Utterly bonkers. But she believed it, hook, line and sinker.

My rather long and tedious point is that some chemists have absolutely no interest in purity whatsoever. It's all about finding the cheapest chemicals to maximise profits - if they could find something that would fool you, then it's fair game. Thankfully the DNM have changed all this - but I hope it gives people an idea of just how bad things got. Good mdma that positively reeks of safrole is definitely out there, but the 'magic' - that's something you'll only come close to feeling again if you take a break for a few years. I could be wrong but that's how it feels for me. I should add that even today, there's a lot of mediocre mdma about. It's good but the real dynamite stuff is still quite rare and boils down to pot luck. Out of 15 batches, I'd say 2-3 were high calibre, the rest was okay but nothing special.

I'd also really like to know how they fooled the test kit back in the day. I can't say I've researched the matter but it's something that's still mystified me after all these years - and I really need to finish reading this thread! (I'm about halfway through, i think?!)


----------



## indigoaura

Just to clarify, the new users were in the presence of Glubrahnum, an experienced user. He stated that 4 people took MDMA and had no eye dilation. Here is what he said:



> Recently, I observed the effects of various oral doses of brownish "Dutch MDMA Crystals" in 4 different VIRGIN subjects (30 - 60 year old) in a house-party social setting.
> 
> By "VIRGIN", I mean people that have never used MDMA before in their life nor any amphetamines, cocaine nor any anti-depressants nor RC.
> The crystalline powder was determined to contain MDxx by an immunoassay testkit, after 10^-6 mass dilution in distilled water.
> The immunoassay testkit is highly specific to MDMA, MDA and MDEA but it does not allow the differentiation between these 3 compounds.
> 
> The 4 oral doses were 100mg, 100mg, 130mg and 150mg.
> The onset of effects happened within 30min of ingestion and was characterized by visible sleepiness, in all four cases.
> 15min into the onset, the sleepiness suddenly receded and remaining effects lasted for 3-4h.
> No PUPIL DILATION ( mydriasis ) was observed for 4 hours in any of the subjects !!!
> A slight lockjaw ( trismus ) was observed IN ONLY ONE subject (a 38y, 85kg male and the 150mg dose).



He also commented that no one reported empathy.

And, I agree. We need to have two samples. One sample of "good" MDMA and one sample of "bad" MDMA. Ideally, multiple users would confirm the same effects through double blind dosing. Then a lab would need to break down all of the differences between the two samples.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoauro I want to clarify something about the lab test you had done.

The test results on ecstasydata for your sample said that it was 5 parts MDMA and 1 part some-precursor, but it does not mention the purity/quality of the 5 parts that are MDMA. Or, is the ratio exactly that; suggesting that the sample was 1 part precursor and 5 parts 100% pure mdma? Making your sample 83% pure? If this is true, does that mean if the 1 part precursor were removed, it would be 100% pure MDMA?

For example, this report: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6074
Is that legit nearly half a gram of straight 100% pure MDMA in a single pill? Or is the only active ingredient MDMA, and there is other crap that they didn't measure? It seems like the reports on here don't have enough detail to be fully conclusive or contain the whole story. Certainly there are also binders? And even a small amount of red dye?

Also, Montel, reagent test kits are relatively easy to fool as they only determine the presence of MDMA. I tested this myself a while back by mixing a small amount of MDMA with an inert substance, I tried this with both baby powder and brown rice flower. I made two 100mg samples to create a similar amount to that of a single dose; first as 1:1 MDMA to baby powder, and the other 1:1 MDMA to brown rice flower. Using my reagent test kit, as expected, both samples appeared as MDMA. Unless there is another active ingredient mixed in that a reagent test can pick up (reagent tests certainly do not test for brown rice flower or baby powder), it will test as MDMA. So hypothetically, a dealer could cut their MDMA by at least 50% with something stupid like saw dust and there wouldn't be any way to know really.

And thats why lab tests are really important for any meaningful scientific discussion here, since there is so much crap that can be (and is) added to MDMA, active or not, that won't show up on a reagent test. I've also tested ground-score caps (that are clearly supposed to be MDMA) that turned colors that weren't even on the charts.

I'm actually curious what the results would be if someone were to send in a sample to ecstasydata thats 50% pure MDMA and 50% sawdust lol.


----------



## Erikmen

From what I hear, MDMA is now totally different from what it used to be. Not only because it's cut but mostly because they now mix the drug with different drugs than it was originally done before. I hear that a lot of people experience paranoia and others that feel good don't describe it as it used to be 10 years ago, for example.


----------



## indigoaura

Hilopsilo, 

My understanding is that they only test for certain active substances. So, for example, if caffeine is mixed in, then it will show up because they specifically look for caffeine. However, in the USA, the total weight of the sample is the weight of the whole sample, and NOT necessarily the weight of all the active substances. The ratio, as far as I understand, means that there was a 5/1 ratio of MDMA to precursor. 

So, theoretically, there could be sawdust in there as well, and if they are not looking for it then it is not going to show up in their results. This is one of the things that makes us concerned regarding the people who get VERY sick of 1 pill, but they did not even roll. Is there some other active substance that is not showing up because they are not looking for it?

The chemistry people in the thread understand this aspect better than I do. 

I see what you are saying though. Maybe there is only 50 mg of MDMA in the whole sample and other inert filler. If that were the case, then taking two should fix the problem, but it doesn't.


----------



## montel

Sounds to me that the mdma simply wasn't very good. As you say, you need at least two samples ideally more. But what is the actual point? 4 people took some weak mdma - hence the results. What is this meant to prove? (Don't buy from x supplier?)


----------



## montel

Erikmen said:


> From what I hear, MDMA is now totally different from what it used to be. Not only because it's cut but mostly because they now mix the drug with different drugs than it was originally done before. I hear that a lot of people experience paranoia and others that feel good don't describe it as it used to be 10 years ago, for example.



Again, this suggests that back in the day somehow all labs were united and used the same synth route. Given the sheer volume of labs in the 1990s - how could that be remotely possible? (just as today) There are many ways to make mdma, many different precursors available, etc. And where is this "a lot of people experience paranoia" reference actually coming from? Surely pillreports (for example) would be full of posts warning people - but they're not? If it's mostly in the UK then it's simply bad mdma - and I've explained previously that the UK is particularly prone to very unscrupulous chemists. More so than anywhere else in Europe. It wasn't a dutch lab that introduced piperazines in the mid-2000s, it was from somewhere in the UK.

Perhaps a lot of this paranoia is from users who took piperazines 10 years ago and are now faced with the overwhelming (and no doubt scary) effects of actual mdma? Although I'd still put it down to just really bad mdma.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Glubra did you ever run Raman spec on the newer product?  I forget.


No, just immunoassay test on site. The owners of the product consumed it all soon afterwards.
It is described *here*.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Just to clarify, the new users were in the presence of Glubrahnum, an experienced user. He stated that 4 people took MDMA and had no eye dilation.


I'd like to clarify, that I am not an experienced user.  I took MDMA only once in my life (19years ago).  I loved it so much that I never took it again for the fear that I could never stop. I have a medical and chemical background and I work in a pharmaceutical lab.  That's how I have access to the immunoassay field tests and other goodies.

Indeed in that report, I observed the tan crystals up close and under 8x magnification, I positively tested them as MDxx with the immunoassay kit and I helped to weigh them, encapsulate them, re-weigh their gross mass and observed their ingestion and their effects.  
I was not under the influence of MDxx when making these observations ...nor any other psychoactive substance (including ethanol).


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> I have massive doubts that what they were given was pure "Dutch MDMA crystal".
> 150mg of pure MDMA completely obliterates every single person I've ever seen take 150mg of pure MDMA.


Yes, thus your only conclusion based on that data should be that the "Dutch MDMA crystal" was not pure racemic 3,4-MDMA • HCl.

From your previous posts, I can surmise that you are suspecting that the "Dutch MDMA crystal" contained a high proportion of a cutting agent, however in the case I've described, you seem to be suffering from a confirmation bias, because you are ignoring the evidence brought forth by the macroscopic crystalline appearance of the substance.

I assume you know, that significant impurities perturb the formation of large crystalline lattices, especially if they do not form chemical bonds with the substrate (e.g. flour or baby powder).



Hilopsilo said:


> No pupil dilation? Ok c'moooooon. That just proves the MDMA used there was either low dosed or just fake. Why? Because every single time I've had perfectly good, pure MDMA (the kind that 100mg makes you rethink your whole fucking life, in a good way), my pupils fucking dilate! And so does everyone elses.And no, this MDMA is not from the 90's or whenever, its from 2018.


Yes, >=100mg of pure racemic 3,4-MDMA • HCl should cause full Mydriasis in a 80kg "virgin" subject.
And that is my point exactly. IMO, the "Dutch MDMA Crystal" is not pure racemic 3,4-MDMA • HCl because it does not cause full Mydriasis even in higher doses.
This might be correlated with the appearance of the mega-dosed Dutch pills on the market lately ...and actually might be the cause of the need for the higher doses.



Hilopsilo said:


> my pupils fucking dilate! And so does everyone elses.And no, this MDMA is not from the 90's or whenever, its from 2018.


Just because you have not encountered this bad "Dutch MDMA" in your geographic area, does not mean that is it not ubiquitous in other areas. 
...and when it does appear on your doorstep, how do you propose to recognize it before consumption?  ...by a smell test?


----------



## montel

Glubrahnum said:


> I'd like to clarify, that I am not an experienced user.  I took MDMA only once in my life (19years ago).  I loved it so much that I never took it again for the fear that I could never stop. I have a medical and chemical background and I work in a pharmaceutical lab.  That's how I have access to the immunoassay field tests and other goodies.
> 
> Indeed in that report, I observed the tan crystals up close and under 8x magnification, I positively tested them as MDxx with the immunoassay kit and I helped to weigh them, encapsulate them, re-weigh their gross mass and observed their ingestion and their effects.
> I was not under the influence of MDxx when making these observations ...nor any other psychoactive substance (including ethanol).



From my experience the mdma that's always stood out from the rest was always clear, not tan. In fact, the tan mdma is the one I'd be more likely to need more of to reach that sweet spot. I do find it strange to test mdma on 4 people in a clinical environment - it isn't the same as taking it in a club or a house party, or even in the informal atmosphere of your own home - that alone I think would seriously alter how people are affected and how they'd react. 

Perhaps you would have seen some eye-rolling and jaw clenching if you'd thrown them in a club and told them to dance for 8 hours - which is a far more intense experience as anyone will tell you.

Could you elaborate on exactly what kind of setting they were in? So far it sounds like a room in a hospital?


----------



## Glubrahnum

montel said:


> Could you elaborate on exactly what kind of setting they were in? So far it sounds like a room in a hospital?



I don't understand how you could have gotten that impression when I wrote


Glubrahnum said:


> Recently, I observed the effects of various  oral doses of brownish "Dutch MDMA Crystals" in 4 different VIRGIN   subjects (30 - 60 year old) in a *house-party social setting*.



It was a house party among very close friends in familiar surroundings.  They usually only drink at these parties, but one of them just came from Utrecht, NL and and brought some Dutch crystal, that he bought there, and proposed to try it instead.  People were ambivalent about it and they asked me for advice because they knew where I work.  I said, that I cannot recommend it without testing it, so they coaxed me into digging out an old but still unexpired immunoassay field test, after which I inspected the crystals in a pocket microscope, diluted a sample of the crystals in dH2O and tested it positively.  Then I helped them weigh it and encapsulate it according to the doses they wanted (a fat friend took 130mg).  I interviewed them for any conflicting drug use (such as harmaline, etc) and instructed/educated them about MDMA after which they ingested it and I watched the effects (or lack thereof). I told them to put on a 130bpm electronic dance music and we found something on YT and it played till morning. 2h later another friend came over and he received the highest dose (150mg) because the others were not exhibiting any Mydriasis nor the other typical effects.


----------



## montel

Sorry, I completely missed that part. My bad.

Again, though, it does sound like some really weak mdma, nothing more.

There's no way of knowing if it's Dutch mdma - it could have been manufactured in Germany or Belgium.

It all boils down to the point that a test kit is really only good for testing for PMA or other adulterants - A test kit will not give you an indication of how strong the actual mdma is. Did it fizz under the marquis test by any chance? Was there an inky purple (not red) before it turned black? These are probably the better indicators - perhaps that might be a better approach to finding something stronger although I've no idea if that's 100% accurate.


----------



## Glubrahnum

montel said:


> Again, though, it does sound like some really weak mdma, nothing more.


Do you mean 'cut with an inert substance" when you write "weak" ?

If "yes", then there is a hole in that theory because significantly cut/diluted 3,4-MDMA • HCl would not form large crystals.
Also, notice that these 4 people were feeling some effects, so the doses can be considered "active".

Do you remember what were the active oral doses reported by Shulgin?
Did he report that low but "active" doses can exhibit ANY symptoms of that duration ...but without Mydriasis and Trismus ?
Did he report that a *dose 50% higher* than the lowest active dose, still does not exhibit Mydriasis ?



montel said:


> There's no way of knowing if it's Dutch mdma - it could have been manufactured in Germany or Belgium.


Correct, but there is preponderance of anecdotal evidence of people from that geographic area having the same problem.



montel said:


> Did it fizz under the  marquis test by any chance? Was there an inky purple (not red) before it  turned black? These are probably the better indicators


I did not use the Marquis reagent to test the sample.  I used an Immunoassay test which is more selective and sensitive than Marquis reagent for MDxx.  The test was was made after a 1000000:1 dilution in dH2O so it gives somewhat of a quantitative positive result with one order of magnitude accuracy.


----------



## Erikmen

montel said:


> Again, this suggests that back in the day somehow all labs were united and used the same synth route. Given the sheer volume of labs in the 1990s - how could that be remotely possible? (just as today) There are many ways to make mdma, many different precursors available, etc. And where is this "a lot of people experience paranoia" reference actually coming from? Surely pillreports (for example) would be full of posts warning people - but they're not? If it's mostly in the UK then it's simply bad mdma - and I've explained previously that the UK is particularly prone to very unscrupulous chemists. More so than anywhere else in Europe. It wasn't a dutch lab that introduced piperazines in the mid-2000s, it was from somewhere in the UK.
> 
> Perhaps a lot of this paranoia is from users who took piperazines 10 years ago and are now faced with the overwhelming (and no doubt scary) effects of actual mdma? Although I'd still put it down to just really bad mdma.



Yes, all the above is probably what is happening. Perhaps just like gold old LSD, idk. The reference was in the newspapers where reports from distressed ppl as well as one suicide. Things are different and we can't really expect the same drug for 20+ years. I suppose that the demands also make thinks change.


----------



## psy997

To those saying it's weak mdma, nothing more. I've had two experiences with tested mdma that were plenty strong effects wise, although lacking in empathy and general loved-up-ness - couldn't tell you about eye dilation as we were at a club - that came down sharply in 3-4 hours after dosing, just like is being documented here with the bad stuff.

It's not just weak mdma if there are strong effects, it's tested as mdma, and it's sharply decreasing in effect so shortly. There's something really odd at play. And, from the sounds of it, multiple odd things in play in various parts of the world.


----------



## indigoaura

psy997 said:


> To those saying it's weak mdma, nothing more. I've had two experiences with tested mdma that were plenty strong effects wise, although lacking in empathy and general loved-up-ness - couldn't tell you about eye dilation as we were at a club - that came down sharply in 3-4 hours after dosing, just like is being documented here with the bad stuff.
> 
> It's not just weak mdma if there are strong effects, it's tested as mdma, and it's sharply decreasing in effect so shortly. There's something really odd at play. And, from the sounds of it, multiple odd things in play in various parts of the world.



Thank you, psy997.

That has been my observation as well. The questionable MDMA is definitely active, and it has a distinct, observable, reliable, effect. It just does not have the same effect as quality MDMA. 

If something is "weak" MDMA (ie low milligram), then all you would need to do is take two or three to get where you need to be. I have had plenty of experiences like that. Eventually, you still roll once you get the dose right. 

With the questionable product, you never achieve the desired state, even with a high dose.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> Correct, but there is preponderance of anecdotal evidence of people from that geographic area having the same problem.



At this point, I can't help but suspect that saying its "pure Dutch mdma" is nothing more than a marketing scheme since for so long that was where all the good MDMA came from historically.

@montel I've had the extreme misfortune of taking a fake MDMA pressed pill filled with piperazine and it was an incredibly shitty experience, far "scarier" than any experience I've had with proper MDMA (not to mention there is absolutely no way that someone who has experienced good MDMA could be fooled by that nasty stuff). I was unable to find good MDMA for a good 2 years after having that experience, but when I finally got some it was like day and night, you know instantly.


----------



## Le Junk

MD96 said:


> You're saying i've done both the "orange tesla's" and the "red surpremes"
> Pill form doesnt say anything. Anyone can make any pillform.
> Having the same pillform as an online trip report doesnt mean you're taking the same pill.



I sent each one of those pills into ecstaysdata.org for GC/MS testing.  They both tested as MDMA only and both were typical new MDMA crap.


----------



## montel

Le Junk said:


> I sent each one of those pills into ecstaysdata.org for GC/MS testing.  They both tested as MDMA only and both were typical new MDMA crap.



I'm not really sure where this thread is going now so I'll bow out - but I'll (for the last time) repeat my previous point. If mdma synthesis has changed then you are suggesting that every illegal laboratory is using the same synthesis and they're all buying precursors from the same place. That doesn't make any sense to me, not in the past or now. If they were all so closely connected then it would only take a handful of lab busts to bring down the entire network - again, this makes no sense given that there are numerous lab busts every year (check the partyflock forums, they mention them occassionaly in the Drugs forum) My only advice would be to look harder and don't assume it's all dynamite stuff - it isn't. It varies a hell of a lot from batch to batch. Intense spontaneous feelings of empathy and love subside dramatically after you become familiar with the drug - don't expect to hug trees every time you take it.


----------



## Glubrahnum

montel said:


> I'm not really sure where this thread is going now


There is only one sensible direction.
Namely, development of a reliable test for the bad "MDMA" before consumption.
This would not only improve the quality of the available drug but also save a lot of lives and health issues.  

I do have the knowledge and equipment to do it, but I would need samples and virgin test subjects...and I cannot get either without risking going to jail.  



montel said:


> ...and they're all buying precursors from the same place.


Maybe not all but many.
Anyway,  cheaply offering a contaminated precursor and not banning it, is a very  effective way to "poison the well".  ...not all wells, but many of  them.


----------



## montel

Okay, I haven't quite gone yet.

I agree 100% - a test kit that gives a more detailed analysis would be a gift from heaven - and is definitely needed. Just because it tests positive doesn't mean you'll be reaching for the lasers, that's for sure. If you're based in the Netherlands, why not try and work with a test centre and see if you can work with their labs?

I assume you mean MDP2P as the 'contaminated' precursor available not too far from where you are? That may explain a lot, definitely.


----------



## G_Chem

Thank you for clarification on my question Glubra.  Wish there was a way to get a Raman of some of the newer product as they seem incredibly hard to find post 2010.

Also Glubra I think you may be onto something.. It's amazing how hard they clamped down on quality safrole and MDP2P but it seems this MDP2P glycidate is just coasting past borders and the only reasoning people have for that is "it's a powder instead of liquid..". Sure solids are easier to smuggle than liquids but still it almost seems like people can get it too easy.  Also why is it so cheap and plentiful?

Many say it's manufactured from different precursors that aren't safrole.  I'm curious what those are..  How come all the sudden we're flooded with this stuff yet no one really knows all that much about it?..

Then we've got people getting fried off one dose for years after and we've gotta start to wonder..

Glubra like you said, what better way to tarnish the name of MDMA?

Also montel, we aren't claiming ALL labs synthesize the same.  But there are general trends that can be seen when the research is examined.  I'd argue the only time MOST of the MDMA was synthesized the same was the early to mid 90's, all other eras of MDMA have been marked with general trends but overall there were still multiple routes used throughout the world.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

So here's what makes me feel these lab tests aren't always telling the full story: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6083

The pill weighs 334mg containing 155mg of MDMA, but nothing else is listed. That means there is 179mg, more than half the pill, containing unknown active or inactive substance(s). I get the feeling that with these lab tests if they aren't looking for the chemicals, or they aren't the usual suspects, they won't be found.


----------



## indigoaura

Hilopsilo said:


> So here's what makes me feel these lab tests aren't always telling the full story: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6083
> 
> The pill weighs 334mg containing 155mg of MDMA, but nothing else is listed. That means there is 179mg, more than half the pill, containing unknown active or inactive substance(s). I get the feeling that with these lab tests if they aren't looking for the chemicals, or they aren't the usual suspects, they won't be found.



But again...that is kind of the point.

If there is an adulterant that is currently NOT being tested for, that is being mixed with MDMA in pills and causing a reduced MDMA experience & worse comedown, then that is a safety hazard. 

155 mg of MDMA should produce a fairly strong MDMA experience. If there is something else in that pill that is preventing that, then that needs to be determined. 

Unknown adulterants have been towards the top of the list of suspects for awhile now.


----------



## indigoaura

and Montel...no one has ever said that every lab does the same thing. But there are trends in the availability and popularity of certain precursors and methods. There are plenty of news articles available online that detail these shifts in precursor availability/legality and subsequent changes in production.


----------



## JG0007

Hilopsilo said:


> So here's what makes me feel these lab tests aren't always telling the full story: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6083
> 
> The pill weighs 334mg containing 155mg of MDMA, but nothing else is listed. That means there is 179mg, more than half the pill, containing unknown active or inactive substance(s). I get the feeling that with these lab tests if they aren't looking for the chemicals, or they aren't the usual suspects, they won't be found.



Tablet mix and binders and colours usually non active. Same as youd get in a multivitamin, its not pure vitamins.


----------



## JG0007

Lets say for example I had an original Q dance pill, could any tests be done on it to explain why it knocked the boll*x out of other pills? 
I could send it a warnerbro for example to compare it to. Just curious. 

I still stand by my opinion that different buzz of 90s pills because there was more MDA around. Remember snowballs?


----------



## indigoaura

I sent a lot of old pills into ecstasydata as well. Yes, some were MDA, and the effect was distinctive. Most were MDMA. I don't think that is the explanation. 

Wish we could get something set up to test with more detail. Then users who have good/bad quality samples could see what showed up in a lab report as the difference.


----------



## psy997

JG0007 said:


> Lets say for example I had an original Q dance pill, could any tests be done on it to explain why it knocked the boll*x out of other pills?
> I could send it a warnerbro for example to compare it to. Just curious.
> 
> I still stand by my opinion that different buzz of 90s pills because there was more MDA around. Remember snowballs?



If you really have those, wait until more conclusive tests are organized.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Many say it's manufactured from different precursors that aren't safrole.  I'm curious what those are.


Piperonal would be one of them


----------



## JG0007

I have 2 original Q dance in my collection yes. If only we knew how special they were at the time.


----------



## userlee5267

JG0007 said:


> Lets say for example I had an original Q dance pill, could any tests be done on it to explain why it knocked the boll*x out of other pills?
> I could send it a warnerbro for example to compare it to. Just curious.
> 
> I still stand by my opinion that different buzz of 90s pills because there was more MDA around. Remember snowballs?



ummmm snowballs they were ace. never knew it was mda though, but though to myself the fookers are strong


----------



## 23michael23

The term pure MDMA & Molly is thrown around loosely nowadays.....Soo many imprints, soo many people who havent had a genuine MDMA trip.  Add that its a Party drug, so loyalty / purity isnt consistent...I did my homework I thought, besides a test, I wasnt used to getting a dud.....Im in my 30's now so im out of the loop....I wish things were like when I didnt have to do a bunch or research..My 3 great experiences are ingrained in my head....


----------



## G_Chem

@Glubra- It seems piperonal was the original precursor for indigos lackluster product he was getting as well..  I wonder if it's this starting point that creates sub par product?

@Hilo- Indeed those lab tests don't get everything.  They only list active substances that they know to search for.  The likelihood a new impurity not well known to occur in MDMA previously, passing by the analysts heads is high.

@JG- The little analysis of ecstasy back then combined with anecdotal reports tells us otherwise.  I've done plenty of MDA, lots combined with MDMA and it's not the culprit for the reason MDMA was different back then.  From what I've seen MDA can be awesome at a music event but generally is better for an at-home roll where you can gush to your hearts desire to the ones around you.  75% of the time when I take MDA out at a music event I tend to want to leave and don't feel like I'm rolling until I walk out for fresh air and get hit like a ton of bricks.  (The other 25% is 6-8hrs solid dancing, aka best night of your life.). It's simply to unreliable in its effects to be the culprit.

90's MDMA (rather impure leuckart synthesized product) was reliable in that it made everyone get out on the dance floor and move.  MDA can be stimulating for some and mongy for others.  My last two experiences with MDMA/MDA combos, (both on 100mg mdma, 25mg MDA plus a mdma booster) one was highly stimulating one was rather chill but both on the same MDA.  MDMA (whether the 90's stuff or just the high quality crystals available in certain areas these days) has always been more reliable in how it effects people.

Also while the snowballs had MDA they were quite obviously different from the rest of the pills of that era.

I will say after reading through Reddit a bit I can see some people still get good product.  Reddit seems to be more of an American forum too..  Look up embarrassing things people have said and done on MDMA there to see what I mean lol.

I'd say the biggest tragedy of this era of MDMA is the way it's used as opposed to the crappy sub par product floating around.  Reddit being a prime example.  People worrying too much about showing pictures of how "big" (usually not all that big mind you) their pupils are or other posts while rolling.  When I'm rolling I'm doing it to be 100% present in the moment, typically dancing or bonding with others, I've got no time to prove how potent my product is via a picture of my pupils nor do I care even when sober.

I remember a time when a light show was something a rolling person got lost in, now it's a moment t catch a selfie to show everyone how cool you are..  I guess this happened in the 90's too, commercialism ruins the scene until it dies off almost completely only to be reborn again by the few who remained for the true spirit of it all.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Sorry to double post but found this thread on Reddit that I find interesting.  I believe the "LTC phenomenon" we see here on BL is directly related to the possible impurities that cause the lackluster effects people described.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/8893um/impure_mdma_story/

In this post, while they did not test they were obtaining through a dealer who had been legit in the past (I know not saying much.). It's the effects of the pills and subsequent reaction that makes me think impur MDMA.  They felt good but things felt a little off until they redosed and shit became lethargic and in a sense toxic feeling.

Two of the people involved still are feeling DP/DR.  

We are starting to see more cases of LTC where multiple people are coming down with these nasty symptoms, whereas before it was an isolated incident here and there.

I supppse it could of been another substance which caused this but I've seen enough reports with tested product causing these symptoms to believe this was likely impure MDMA.

Now more than ever we need to figure this out as it could mean the health of many people.

The only easy test I have is this...  And it definitely is not conclusive but the marquis reagent does contain more purple when even the slightest amount of safrole is present and it seems safrole product doesn't likely cause these problems.  No safrole and the MDMA will go jet black with zero purple seen.  That's the best we have for now..

Indigo did you marquis test that new stuff?

-GC


----------



## Ejizme

I stopped reading at page 6 and figured I'd just chime in randomly like the dummie I am.



jredcity said:


> whoops, i hit the return button instead of shift. so real quick, the Ethiopian's faces got like long like a banana and my friend, J looked at the ground and pucked up three completely whole, undigested meatballs one after the other&from then on it was BLISS. so many details. but not enough time to go into. anyway I've seen nothing even close since then. yup
> ,


First off, thanks for the laugh, I really did lol about the meatballs.

Second. I did x in the 90's and I remember wonderful times on things like double/triple stacked Mitsubishis or Supermans or green clovers.
I recall getting a couple hundred pink pills with the statue of liberty on them, they were a bit trippy but good and very cheap for some reason.
I remember the good times OP is talking about. It was like a miracle drug. It brought together the closest group of friends I've ever had when
we were teens and we all still communicate at least to an extent with each other.
As I tried x years later, I was really disappointed. But then again, this has happened with coke, meth, acid etc. 
EVerything seems to have gone down the shitter quality wise.
I have thought to myself that it is age and chemical changes etc but I recall the last time I tried x about a decade ago.
Me and my buddy got nothing off of it but my other friend, she was rollin hard. She was one of the group I did x with in the 90's
and she was not burnt out or have chemical changes, age etc.
So it's hard for me to tell what's really going on given this last experience because of her, but in my own experience it is all crap now.


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> Sorry to double post but found this thread on Reddit that I find interesting.  I believe the "LTC phenomenon" we see here on BL is directly related to the possible impurities that cause the lackluster effects people described.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/8893um/impure_mdma_story/
> 
> In this post, while they did not test they were obtaining through a dealer who had been legit in the past (I know not saying much.). It's the effects of the pills and subsequent reaction that makes me think impur MDMA.  They felt good but things felt a little off until they redosed and shit became lethargic and in a sense toxic feeling.
> 
> Two of the people involved still are feeling DP/DR.
> 
> We are starting to see more cases of LTC where multiple people are coming down with these nasty symptoms, whereas before it was an isolated incident here and there.
> 
> I supppse it could of been another substance which caused this but I've seen enough reports with tested product causing these symptoms to believe this was likely impure MDMA.
> 
> Now more than ever we need to figure this out as it could mean the health of many people.
> 
> The only easy test I have is this...  And it definitely is not conclusive but the marquis reagent does contain more purple when even the slightest amount of safrole is present and it seems safrole product doesn't likely cause these problems.  No safrole and the MDMA will go jet black with zero purple seen.  That's the best we have for now..
> 
> Indigo did you marquis test that new stuff?
> 
> -GC



I think the LTC is just from abuse/impure product. The vast majority of posts on here from people feeling shit from "MDMA" just by reading their post you can tell they don't know much about it, from their story you can tell they didn't exercise harm reduction, or they pounded through a large amount of it in 1 night or many consecutively. MDMA is a much bigger part of pop culture at this point, more people doing it, more people to come to the internet with their problems. And I'm sure you're aware, but one is much more likely to post about difficulties with MDMA than good times. I've had countless great times with MDMA, but the handful of posts I've ever made on internet forums has been about difficulties surrounding it.

I don't mean this judgmentally, but I find that people who don't know much about a drug or are inexperienced are less likely to have access to good product or use it responsibly in either case. Seriously, from the post: "We suspect that there were large traces of Ketamine in the trump pills." (and I think "large traces" is an oxymoron)

Even as I've grown up doing it, I've noticed some culture surrounding it has shifted a bit from taking your pill at the beginning of the night to racking that shit back til the morning. I noticed this practice become popularized around 2010-2011 when good MDMA became incredibly scarce (and it became an element of hip-hop culture) , and people likely had to do way more of it to get anywhere close to a desired effect (why isn't this working?? lets do more!). Even with perfectly good MDMA, I've seen people go through grams of it in a night like its nothing. Like thats their concept of how its done, oh you want to do MDMA? Ok lets split a gram and snort it all night.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Thats all very true and part of the reason it's so hard to accurately assess what's really the cause of this.  I think impure product is likely the problem too and people less connected are probably more likely to run into impure product with negative symptoms (talking product with MDMA in it but other crap as well..)

I'd argue though that only about half the people who report LTC are ones who abuse it.  Many are college kids who were curious and tried one or two pills, one or two times.  I've got a few theories as to why that's the case..  But whatever the cause I can say fairly certainly we've never had this quantity of people coming in with complaints.  There's a change, but what that change is it hard to pinpoint.

To list off what I think some of the causes may be:

-Impurity/ies leftover from synthesis
-Change in culture surrounding consumption
-Higher dosage pills
-More non-drug taking people with little experience trying Mdma
-More people talking about their lives via internet

There's probably more but those come to mind, the culprit is likely an amalgam of these factors.

The thing that often scares me about the LTC reports is that often the experience the person had was usually all not that intense.  More often than not they have a rather normal experience and a rather normal day after until the symptoms appear days later.  This to me indicates impurity as the dosages never seem to high.  Of course there are the abusers who get these symptoms after much use but their LTC seems different and often more transient in nature compared to the one off person who came down with it after one dose.

-GC


----------



## no_id

Ive not much used mdma (something like 20 times and I dont plan to repeat as I have 2cc, trypta, lyser and related stuff that I prefer) but I can agree with the op. My first pills was cool but not as much as ppl make them sound like. I had the wiggles, the euphoria, some empathy, touch sensation,then a comedown. Somewhere near the 10-15th pills, a friend of mine was making propaganda to myself about trying some fucked up pills he found. They was violet or something, pressed as a hearth or a rose flower I dont remember. I wasnt that motivated as mdma is not my things, but I finally bought 3 or propaganda wouldnt stop. And omg. Its not that the high necessarelly did fuck up myself more, but the sensation was simply out of this world : empathy and touch was far more pronounced and I got far more appreciation of social stuff, euphoria sounded like it had far more into it than simple serotoninergic stuff like previous mdma I had or to a lesser extend a good cathinone, let alone 4fa. The wiggles and physicals was similar, but didnt feel like bad side effect. After that I got another connection with other pills, and another one who got it from dnm but these last was the same as the first one : a good serotoninergic, perhaps a bit better than 6apb but shorter, but nothing to shout the drug name all over. Then I decided to stop mdma mainly because of comedown, risk of LTR, suspected neurotoxicity and I find LSD and related drugs better.
Sry for english mistake Im french


----------



## indigoaura

> Indigo did you marquis test that new stuff?



My friend did, and the lab did as well. You can see the purple in the lab link. https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6072

no_id, I think your story really adds a new element. Your first experiences were unimpressive and matched what many of us are finding with the product currently available on the street. Later on, you had a product that matched the experiences we recall from a higher quality product. Since you had an unimpressive experience first, that establishes that it is not simply tolerance. If it was tolerance, then your first experience would be the best and it would go downhill from there.

Short update, not sure when I will get a chance to try the dw product. Had a friend I hoped to participate with, and he is out. So, it will most likely just be me doing it alone, and I have a ton of stuff going on right now. I guess a longer wait will yield better data anyway.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, check this out: http://www.maps.org/research/mdma/p...2018-03-Newsletter-March-Email&pk_kwd=toc-GMP

Notice they are specifically calling their MDMA "GMP-MDMA." 



> On March 13, 2018, a shipment of pharmaceutical-grade MDMA, made under current Good Manufacturing Practices in a certified laboratory, arrived in the United States for use in MAPS-sponsored Phase 3 trials of treating posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) with MDMA-assisted psychotherapy.


----------



## psy997

Reading no_id's story and indigo's replies I remember that my first experience with MDMA was also lackluster. It was nice, but it wasn't at all the lovey empathic experience of MDMA. It was tested and from a reliable source. Only a month or so later I did other stuff and had an amazing time, exactly as you'd hope to expect.


----------



## G_Chem

Good looking out indigo, also appreciate the response on Marquis.

GMP (good manufacturing practices) MDMA is kind of a US scam to keep people from using pharmacies outside the country.  GMP mdma is product where certain practices are followed and everything documented along the way.  GMP MDMA is "born" that way but can't be claimed GMP MDMA after synthesis even if it's 99.9% pure.

It's in a nutshell another hurdle that the US gov has put in place to make research harder as well as increase domestic profits.  MAPS purchased non GMP MDMA in the 90's that they used up until phase 3 trials which was perfectly stable and fine.

The one thing I found interesting while reading was this.. 

""I had expected that manufacturing a chemical that is over 100 years old to be a simple process, like making widgets. I thought that there was a set of directions that all pharmacologists and chemists would know that would produce MDMA. However, from our discussions and exchanges during the search, we learned that building a chemical is more akin to cooking or artwork: finding a cost-effective, high-yield route to making a future medicine is a creative process of discovery, not to be found in a single set of directions.""

This quote is coming from someone who works with maps and has a PHD..  Not all MDMA is the same.

I believe it doesn't matter much the route so long as the purity is high, obtaining high purity mdma is harder than most people care to admit.

-GC


----------



## Ionized

Last time I experienced good MDMA was 2007 with some "Pink Buddha" pills. Turned Marquis into dark purple and did NOT fizzle or smoke. 
Every other MDMA pills or crystals or powder I have come across since then pretty much sucked. They are really sleeping pills for me. The only way I have found to work around that is to drink a Redbull once the pill kicks in (about an hour after ingestion). This simple trick has worked fairly well to bring up some energy during the otherwise sleepy roll but yeah pills have been different since 2007 and its not only me who noticed that. 
In fact i am so disappointed at today's MDMA that I am seriously thinking of switching over to 2CB.


----------



## indigoaura

Funny you should mention energy drinks, Ionized. I resorted to that trick too. I would use 5 hour energy before a roll and during the roll to try to negate that sleepy feeling. Eventually gave up on that, because it still just was not the same. It just made it harder to sleep afterwards.

Great quote to pull from the article, G_Chem. I basically got the same impression.

I emailed MAPS a brief query and explained our concerns regarding the quality of MDMA being sold on the street currently. We'll see if they bother to reply. 

And, just to add, the "sleepy" MDMA I have did not turn purple on the marquis testing. It does the fizzle black reaction. I need a new marquis kit and then I can film both reactions in good light and upload them.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Awesome information here that continues to confirm the marquis reagent theory that good product goes purple whereas the not so good product doesn't..

Also I appreciate you contacting them as I was thinking about it but got a lot of craziness in the life right now so my hobbies are on the back burner for a min.

Yea needing energy drinks does solidify the notion there's a difference as well..

The one thing I'll say is I don't think ALL marquis reactions which go straight black signify bad product.  I've seen highly pure MDMA go straight black that was pretty damn good.  I think MDMA if made exceedingly pure via this piperanol to PMK glycidate route will feel almost or completely identical to mdma made from more "traditional" routes (excluding polymorphic differences).  With that said as we know finding highly pure MDMA ain't easy.  I also think this is why we see variations in how "mongy" and lacking certain batches are.  So straight to black on marquis isn't always bad but not a great sign either unless your looking at crystals that resemble perfect little pieces of clear quartz (as I was when I stumbled upon the product I talk about above.)

I think this observation that highly pure MDMA which goes straight black is still good also helps confirm the sedating impurity theory even more.

-GC


----------



## psy997

In addition to caffeine, I've also found alcohol to help smooth out the shitty edges of bad batches, and bring out the good stuff. I'm just throwing stuff in here as I remember it anecdotally.


----------



## indigoaura

Most studies show that mixing alcohol with MDMA increases the chances of neurotoxicity, so I stay away from that. I also just don't like alcohol in general. Not my thing.


----------



## Beenhead

Not gonna lie guys, you have put me down a bit. Here I am, got some pure MDMA from the glorious internet (if I had this access to all the different drugs back then OMG) and MDA, and have had it about a year, waiting like a fine bottle of Champagne to open up on a good day. Well that time is near, and I must say, I am worried.

I was Rolling starting in 2000. Back then man it was amazing, the culture, music, all of it. When I went to college in 2003, I rolled a few times but the pills got dirtier and dirtier with worse come downs and hangovers. So I stopped

I remember the last time I rolled in 2006, at Junkie XL, in ATL. My sister had me up to hang out and roll, and they were fairly new to the scene wheras I am a veteran. The way they did it was odd. They wanted to re dose all night long, I gave up my last roll for my sister. I was taught to take 2 pills then in an hour or 2 take another or maybe 2, but then after that its over. let it go. It was just different, I realize people were doing that before, but it was new to me. 

There can only be a few things here. Isomeric differences: with the S-isomer being much more active, looking at PihKAl the R isomer is active but less so, and the experience is similar, but not as sparkly. There should not be any major difference in the lasting hangover, if anything, the more active S-Isomer should be worse since it drains Serotonin much more readily. 

Then there are by products in the synthesis, as we all know the differing substiution patterns to amphetamines are pretty much all active, with methylenedioxy compounds probably in the list of impurities found in the endpoint, and also would probably ride along with in the recrystallizations. The only way to get real super pure product reliably is chromatography (do the dutch labs do this?)

My issue with this is with so many people have Marquis tested these things (is this mostly with pills or also powder/crystal?) Marquis can be fooled, but it cant be the rule, rather the exception. Now if you get marquis tested product that turns black/purple immediately, it can safely be said to be high yield. Not many impurities are active in that low of concentration. 

I feel that if the synthetic pathway has changed, the issue is a preference for the R-Isomer (remember Shulgin used Racemic MDMA most of the time). So the preference may be fairly high. The issue with all these negative reactions in the following days I feel is probably misuse and over use of the drug. 

Or we are getting old... but again, Shulgin and his colleagues werent spring chickens when they tool MDMA. 

I hope I aint disappointed when I get the chance to take my MDA/MDMA rolls!

Edit: As someone who has worked in the chemical and pharmaceutical business a very long time, GMP/GLP, albeit slow and tedious as shit is indeed a good thing and brings traceability and accountability to pharmaceutical companies. It is there for a reason.


----------



## Glubrahnum

@G_Chem

I just stuck a pill featuring a "Trump" logo, brought from NL by a friend of a friend, into my Raman spectrometer, and the major signal, aside from polyvinylpyrrolidone, was 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate.  The signal was so strong that it overshadowed any MDMA in it...if there was any.


----------



## G_Chem

Shit are you serious?!? Great work my man! At work but I'll get back tonight or tmrw.

So it was 2,3-MDP2P glycidate not 3,4??  Wouldn't that mean we are looking at 2,3-MDMA in the sample too then?  I wonder the legality of 2,3-MDP2P glycidate? That may be the reason they are flooding the market with this stuff.

Damn if that's the case then you were on the right track all along (as well as shunenja..).

Either way it's clear these labs could give a shit if there intermediates even aminate, all I can do is shake my head in disgust..

Be back,

-GC


----------



## Le Junk

Glubrahnum said:


> @G_Chem
> 
> I just stuck a pill featuring a "Trump" logo, brought from NL by a friend of a friend, into my Raman spectrometer, and the major signal, aside from polyvinylpyrrolidone, was 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate.  The signal was so strong that it overshadowed any MDMA in it...if there was any.



Sorry Im not a chemist, so in laymans terms, what does all this mean?  The samples are testing positive as MDMA in the labs but its not the correct MDMA?


----------



## G_Chem

If Glubra is right it means we have 2,3-MDMA in place of 3,4-MDMA (the right one) for some pills, and on top of that most of the content of that pill contained the intermediate which has little if any activity.

2,3-MDMA doesn't have much research on it, all I could find is a research paper which says it has similar action on NE but much less action on SERT.  (This would mean more of a nasty stimulus with zero euphoria.)  Others have talked about it being hard to distinguish from real 3,4-MDMA via GCMS but I found a paper saying it can be distinguished so someone will have to clarify that for me..

It's not far fetched to see mostly MDP2P (or analogous substances like the glycidate) like we do here in a sample although I wonder how common it is..  I also wonder how active a pill like this would even be?..

Another huge discovery from that research is these labs are using the glycidate as is to synthesize (or at least this one did..).  This could mean two things; the lab who made this pill tried synth'ing straight from the glycidate and failed miserably, and/or this is common practice and many labs synth straight from glycidate.

So much to go on from here.  Next I'd love to dive into experience reports for that particular pill.  Any chance on a picture Glubra, if not describe the pill to best of your ability.

Awesome work everyone seriously, this is by far the best independent research collaboration I've seen in a long time.  I'm proud of what we've accomplished thus far.

Edit:

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6039&mobile=1

Here's a link to the latest trump pill that they claim is just over 200mg MDMA.. What's your take on that Glubra or anyone? Do you think they are missing something? I wouldn't doubt it based on what Lucid has described of testing centers.  How far off is MDP2P from MDMA on GCMS?

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

Was this RAMAN spectrum obtained with a solid like a KBr pellet (I am not up on RAMAN spec)?  If it was a solid, then you would not always get a complete sample of the compound due to mixing and all that. These pills are not homogeneous at all. 

3,4-MDMA and 2,3 should be distinguishable with good chromatography, because the two will not elute into the MS at the same time. That is why you cant tell R/S isomers with a normal column, they are pretty much shaped the same with the same electrochemical properties, but these two are a bit different and I would expect them to elute near each other but not quite the same. YOu would have to have standards for each though, because I would guess that the MS spectrum would look similar. This is where having LCMS with tandem mass spec would come in quite handy to do MS^3, or a triple quad GCMS

Sounds like this pill had a lot of precursor left in it, probably due to a bad synthesis. 

My question is is 2,3-MDMA and 3,4-MDMA common products in the synthesis of MDMA? I could potentially see this happening in the course of some reactions, you have a phenol ring, and unless you are guaranteeing where the reaction occurs on the ring you could get multiple products which would have to be separated by batch level chromatography (alumina or silica). 

Remember this is one pill and is no way representative of even every trump pill out there. (was a marquid reagent test done on the RAMAN pill??)


----------



## Beenhead

Here is an experiment someone can try on either powdered MDMA or pills that they feel is MDMA but sucks: this should remove much of the contaminants that are disimilar in polarity to MDMA.

Take a 5mL syringe (the longer the tube the better a buret is the best thing to use), get some Alumina powder from the pharmacist or online and some glass wool or something to loosely stopper the bottom of the column. Add the alumina, and condition it with ethanol. put like 10 column volumes through, never let it dry except the first like cm. 

Then add the powder (a little more than a dose) to about a half mL of ethanol, take this and add to the column. Now run 10 column volumes of ethanol through the column, collect each, 1mL at a time and save them. 
Now switch to hexane or some other nonpolar solvent and run it through the column (maybe 10 column volumes ) again, keeping the aliquots in 1mL increments. 

Now do a marquis reagent test on them there should be maybe one or two that turn black, the others will have the other junk. Throw out the negatives. combine the positives, dry and take to see how it feels. 

anyone can pm me if they want to try it and I can probably scrape up a better method.


----------



## Le Junk

Would the possibility of todays MDMA pills and powder actually being 2,3 MDMA instead of 3,4 MDMA be the reason the mgs are so high nowadays?

And if we can verify 2,3 MDMA is the culprit, could a simple reagent test be produced to distinguish against that and 3,4 MDMA?


----------



## Beenhead

you would need to search the literature or reports of colorimetric tests with 2,3-MDMA.

I really wonder how active and how similar this would be to MDMA


----------



## G_Chem

From the readings, it seems as though it's more in line with a traditional stimulant.  But there's near zero experiences with it, and little in way of pharmacological testing.  We know it acts similar on norepinephrine but much less on serotonin.  This would explain the lack of mydriasis and empathy, also would explain how people can take such large doses of it..

Although it doesn't really explain the monginess..

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

I just dont think this is the culprit in what you guys are feeling. From what I have gathered 2,3-MDMA is not even a major or minor product in the current synthesis of the age. 

A lab would almost have had to purposely throw this in the pill. I want to take a little harder look at the synthesis to see if it is even a chemical possibility in the reaction. Also would like more info on the chiral nature of the reaction.


----------



## Cecily2018

Good quit taking it it?s very unsafe?


----------



## Goodwalt

I think we need further input from Glubra. If this was the case it would be very interesting, but we need more evidence to back the claim that 2,3-MDMA was the culprit all along.


----------



## Le Junk

I agree but I have a very strong suspicion that he may have just uncovered the actual culprit here.  It would explain a lot of things ie. lack of dilation, empathy, high dose pills, their ability to pass the testing labs as just MDMA etc. I also suspect that this is probably more the norm for todays manufactures as it seems like this kind of buzz is all thats available nowadays.  Outstanding first step Glubra!  Lets continue testing more and more samples to confirm the results are more widespread than just this particular pill.


----------



## Beenhead

So why would chemists knowingly use this precursor to create a positional isomer of MDMA that has little history of use and would almost certainly be identified as inferior product by users? The main paper on this substance says that it would produce very little in the way of MDMA like effects at all. 

Wouldnt these large labs have the ability to test their precursors to make sure they are the same? Would the synthesis even work the same way with 2,3-MDP2P?


----------



## userlee5267

Maybe something is going wrong during the synth which isnt noticable.  

Or maybe thats all some chemists can/will make because its easier/struggle to get something to finish it off properly.  

God knows im just guessing lol


----------



## G_Chem

Your right beenhead this substance isn't a byproduct of the traditional 3,4-mdma synthesis.  This would be deliberate.

I don't think the labs have any idea.  And to answer your question, no most clandestine labs wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two.  (Nor care, they believe they've just purchased 3,4 and want to get product made and out the door.). My guess is that 2,3-MDP2P is possibly legal and unwatched in China, the Chinese can then produce this with the same impunity they would with the RC's they've been pumping out.  Also yes this intermediate could be synthesized the same as regular 3,4 mdma.

As you guys, I'd love to hear a confirmation from Glubra plus maybe a second or third analysis before I can really start to believe it.  This is just so far off from my initial theories yet it is still highly plausible in hindsight..

2,3-MDMA is pretty much unknown as far as I've read.  I've seen one comment on 2,3-MDA in PIHKAL that claimed it was a stimulant at 50mg, that was it... We are talking about an unknown substance with high potential to be a substance that's a bit off yet similar to the real deal.

The only thing is supposedly it can be differentiated from 3,4-mdma via GCMS so we'll have to wait and see.

We must also remember the PMK intermediate was overshadowing the 2,3-mdma, what the hell is up with that??

So many more questions after that Raman spec...

-GC


----------



## userlee5267

G_Chem said:


> Your right beenhead this substance isn't a byproduct of the traditional 3,4-mdma synthesis.  This would be deliberate.
> 
> I don't think the labs have any idea.  And to answer your question, no most clandestine labs wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two.  (Nor care, they believe they've just purchased 3,4 and want to get product made and out the door.). My guess is that 2,3-MDP2P is possibly legal and unwatched in China, the Chinese can then produce this with the same impunity they would with the RC's they've been pumping out.  Also yes this intermediate could be synthesized the same as regular 3,4 mdma.
> 
> As you guys, I'd love to hear a confirmation from Glubra plus maybe a second or third analysis before I can really start to believe it.  This is just so far off from my initial theories yet it is still highly plausible in hindsight..
> 
> 2,3-MDMA is pretty much unknown as far as I've read.  I've seen one comment on 2,3-MDA in PIHKAL that claimed it was a stimulant at 50mg, that was it... We are talking about an unknown substance with high potential to be a substance that's a bit off yet similar to the real deal.
> 
> The only thing is supposedly it can be differentiated from 3,4-mdma via GCMS so we'll have to wait and see.
> 
> 
> 
> We must also remember the PMK intermediate was overshadowing the 2,3-mdma, what the hell is up with that??
> 
> So many more questions after that Raman spec...
> 
> -GC




would you say maybe something is going wrong during the process. would the dutch buy the powder from the chinese?


----------



## Beenhead

I dunno

First i would think there could be trouble if the cooks found out they were being screwed

I wouldnt want to mess with them.

If this chem had any real similarity to mdma i think it wiuld have been marketed by now by the same chinese vendors and methylone suppliers

I dont know how well 2,3 and 3,4 MDMA could be distinguished by GCMS. It would need a good signal to noise ratio and sensitivity. Tandem MS would do better at this at the MS^3 level and reversed phase UPLC and ESI, not GC and EI.

If gcms was done I think you may end up needing a triple quad so you could get another layer of fragments


I cant find crap on the 2,3-PMK


----------



## G_Chem

@Userlee-  That would be my guess, it wouldn't be the first time chemists just went ahead and put the intermediate in the pills.  It might be hard to know too if they were synthing straight from the glycidate as it's also a powder/solid.

It could of been a semi failed amination based on the fact they tried using the glycidate as is, or these guys just fucked up for another reason.  We don't know..

@Beenhead- Criminals are criminals, both sides (Chinese and Dutch) are equally armed and equally scary I'd presume.  Also it's hard to know your getting screwed when they are screwing you so well (i.e. a substance that tests legit on GCMS is hard to dispute.)

Also there was a short period where they did try to market it but no one was buying and APB's flowed like wine so people were happy.  On top of that why sell a substance for next to nothing as an RC when you could pull the biggest scam of all time and sell it as the intermediate for the most popular drug out there.  (Less synthesizing, safer legally, way more money.)

Shulgin even talks in PIHKAL about obtaining the wrong ketone from a chemical supplier, if it can happen at that level it can happen on this level.

I could keep going playing devils advocate but until we get some more info we will keep going in circles.  We right now seemingly have 3 very potential theories which could be at play...  This could have been just a 1 off bad pill, it seems based on reading around that people enjoyed the press so idk...

Glubra needs to come back, he dropped a bombshell on us lol.

-GC


----------



## Tranced

I'd just like to say that whilst I am not personally convinced as of yet, this thread is certainly an interesting read, and I appreciate all of your efforts! Keep up the good work/research (I have no doubt that you's will).


----------



## montel

Tranced said:


> I'd just like to say that whilst I am not personally convinced as of yet, this thread is certainly an interesting read, and I appreciate all of your efforts! Keep up the good work/research (I have no doubt that you's will).



My thoughts exactly, this is a fascinating read and I do wonder if it's the current source for MDP2P is at the root of all this. The problem is that there are far too many user reports that indicate the love/happiness is there, just as it always was, and it's merely a tolerance issue. A thorough study of a cross-section of pills is the only way to actually confirm/refute this - and the only obvious place would a Dutch test centre. Does anyone know anyone/have access to one and would they be willing to dig deeper?


----------



## userlee5267

i was looking on ecstasy data last night and i seen a few pills mention they had sythensis by product in them... surely this is the same.


----------



## Dresden

A Good GC/MS Should Be Able To Distinguish Between 3,4-MDMA & 2,3-MDMA.  The Latter Is Not Much An Empathogen.


----------



## SympatheticMD

Wow, I left for a month and by the time I return someone has referred to me as an “old fart.”  It is the first time that has happened to me.  I’m not exactly what you’d expect from an old fart.

When I looked over all of these posts, I started see things differently, thinking from a legal rather than scientific perspective.  This brought me to this article.

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publica...amphetamines-ecstasy/production-precursors_en


It is from 2016, and it claimed that the limiting factor in MDMA mass production is the availability of the precursor.  Some people in this thread are way ahead of me, and have already alluded to this point. For me, this article pulled our discussion out to a more massive and global scale, which may impact the way some of you chemists approach the evaluation of different types of MDMA.  For example is the chemical in the paragraph below a precursor to 2,3-MDMA found in the Trump pill?

*“In 2014, during a survey by the INCB on the use of pre-precursor materials, several governments mentioned a substance called ‘Helional’ (2-methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal), a novel precursor for MDA and possibly MDMA. In May 2014, Dutch authorities reported a seizure of 800 litres of Helional at a ‘clandestine warehouse’; more than 500 kg of APAAN was also seized from the same site (INCB, 2015a), indicating that precursor developments continue to evolve and must be carefully and continuously monitored.”*


In any case, this is the first time I have read that novel precursors are being used in the production of MDMA.  The manufacturers are looking for new ways to make MDMA that don’t rely on traditional substances like  sassafrole or …. Piperadole (sp?)/PMK?.  Couldn’t this change in synthesis also account for some of the changes we have seen in the way the drug feels?  Would it be worthwhile to read more about what types of drugs are being seized in the mass labs busts to get a handle on what might be included in the end product MDMA we see today?

 I didnotice that the article made very little mention of China as a main source of MDMA…so perhaps G-Chem is onto something about the legality of its precursors in china, since the publication date is old and the market has moved on.

@G-Chem:  you said that the first phases of the MAPS MDMA trials used “old” MDMA pills.  How did you know this?  (And I mean this with complete curiosity so that I can find that kind of information when I read).  Also, I would guess that pharmaceutical company (I’m not sure if this is Merck or Dole at this point?) would have to be involved at some point in the study – someone with a patent has to make the supply once the demand is created by a successful study.  

Lastly, could you theoretically test a pill for a trace amount of a known precursor – say saffrole - and then you would know that you were likely to have a “good” pill?  Ie, would every pill have some trace amount of the initial precursor in it?  Maybe the smaller labs with better product use higher quality , identifiable precursors in them?


----------



## Beenhead

SympatheticMD said:


> Wow, I left for a month and by the time I return someone has referred to me as an “old fart.”  It is the first time that has happened to me.  I’m not exactly what you’d expect from an old fart.
> 
> When I looked over all of these posts, I started see things differently, thinking from a legal rather than scientific perspective.  This brought me to this article.
> 
> http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publica...amphetamines-ecstasy/production-precursors_en
> 
> 
> It is from 2016, and it claimed that the limiting factor in MDMA mass production is the availability of the precursor.  Some people in this thread are way ahead of me, and have already alluded to this point. For me, this article pulled our discussion out to a more massive and global scale, which may impact the way some of you chemists approach the evaluation of different types of MDMA.  For example is the chemical in the paragraph below a precursor to 2,3-MDMA found in the Trump pill?
> 
> *“In 2014, during a survey by the INCB on the use of pre-precursor materials, several governments mentioned a substance called ‘Helional’ (2-methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal), a novel precursor for MDA and possibly MDMA. In May 2014, Dutch authorities reported a seizure of 800 litres of Helional at a ‘clandestine warehouse’; more than 500 kg of APAAN was also seized from the same site (INCB, 2015a), indicating that precursor developments continue to evolve and must be carefully and continuously monitored.”*
> 
> 
> In any case, this is the first time I have read that novel precursors are being used in the production of MDMA.  The manufacturers are looking for new ways to make MDMA that don’t rely on traditional substances like  sassafrole or …. Piperadole (sp?)/PMK?.  Couldn’t this change in synthesis also account for some of the changes we have seen in the way the drug feels?  Would it be worthwhile to read more about what types of drugs are being seized in the mass labs busts to get a handle on what might be included in the end product MDMA we see today?
> 
> I didnotice that the article made very little mention of China as a main source of MDMA…so perhaps G-Chem is onto something about the legality of its precursors in china, since the publication date is old and the market has moved on.
> 
> @G-Chem:  you said that the first phases of the MAPS MDMA trials used “old” MDMA pills.  How did you know this?  (And I mean this with complete curiosity so that I can find that kind of information when I read).  Also, I would guess that pharmaceutical company (I’m not sure if this is Merck or Dole at this point?) would have to be involved at some point in the study – someone with a patent has to make the supply once the demand is created by a successful study.
> 
> Lastly, could you theoretically test a pill for a trace amount of a known precursor – say saffrole - and then you would know that you were likely to have a “good” pill?  Ie, would every pill have some trace amount of the initial precursor in it?  Maybe the smaller labs with better product use higher quality , identifiable precursors in them?




I will answer these paragraphs one at a time

The seized precursor has the methylene dioxy ring in the right place, so this is not what we are looking for in a 2,3 methylene dioxy precursor. THis one has a methyl group at the 2 position which would have to be removed. But does show that these labs are trying to work around the lack of precursor to make MDMA

The earlier phases just used MDMA that was not synthed in a GMP environment.  THe new stuff is and would need to be done any way when they go to production, and I think is needed for phase three trials when you are givng the drug to larger numbers of people.  GMP just gives traceability of the manufacturing process so that any errors in the process are tracked and dealt with.

The patent on MDMA has run out a long time ago, so MDMA will be generic when released as a CII drug

You would need to do some sort of instrumental analysis to test a pill like you said. Colorimetric tests really only get you so far and dont work on trace species.


----------



## Vexanize

maybe its just shitty street ecstacy. If you actually want real shit, find someone who orders stuff from the deep web across country from labs and doesn't cook that shit in their moms basement. Either that or buy some bitcoin and get it yourself but I'm not gonna send you any links or tell you any way to get to the deep web but, if you really wanna go there, it's possible. Also, don't listen to the bullshit stories of people being captured and shit from the deep web, all of my old plugs buy shit with bitcoin from the cotton road. So yeah, nothing good is on the street anymore. It's either legal and in a shop, or anonymously online.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Please actually read up on some things before spreading misinformation..

The product talked about here is tested and often sourced from the dark web.  I've also never once purchased dark web MDMA and I always get legit product...  Sure the dark web makes it easier for some, but not a necessity.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> So it was 2,3-MDP2P glycidate not 3,4??


Definitely



G_Chem said:


> Wouldn't that mean we are looking at 2,3-MDMA in the sample too then?


If the synth was done properly with this precursor then it would be...but it doesn't seem to me that it was.



G_Chem said:


> I wonder the legality of 2,3-MDP2P glycidate? That may be the reason they are flooding the market with this stuff.


I have no idea


----------



## Glubrahnum

Le Junk said:


> Sorry I'm not a chemist, so in laymans terms, what does all this mean?  The samples are testing positive as MDMA in the labs but its not the correct MDMA?


Yes, 2,3-MDMA would deceive regular underivatized GC/MS analysis.  Only exotic stationary phases would be able to distinguish it in underivatized form... but they are expensive.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Here's a link to the latest trump pill that they claim is just over 200mg MDMA.. What's your take on that Glubra or anyone?
> https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6039&mobile=1


This is it, except for the color (which in my case was white)
The shape, mass and dimensions, match.



G_Chem said:


> This could mean two things; the lab who made this pill tried synth'ing  straight from the glycidate and failed miserably, and/or this is common  practice and many labs synth straight from glycidate.


In my opinion it is the former...or some ruthless criminal did not even try to make the synth.  Yes, that would mean that they were pressing the precursor into pills!



G_Chem said:


> If Glubra is right it means we have 2,3-MDMA in place of 3,4-MDMA (the right one) for some pills...


If the synth was done properly from this precursor, I'd expect 2,3-MDMA to be the result.



G_Chem said:


> and on top of that most of the content of that pill contained the intermediate which has little if any activity.


Yes, in fact I could not detect any peaks characteristic only for n,n-MDMA.
I do not know if that 2,3-MDP2P is psychoactive because after my test nobody wanted to consume it...nor would I want them to.



G_Chem said:


> Others have talked about it being hard to distinguish from real 3,4-MDMA via GCMS but I found a paper saying it can be distinguished so someone will have to clarify that for me..


Yes, normal underivatized GC/MS is unable to distinguish it.  With common industrial stationary phases, you'd have to react the 2.3-MDMA with other chemicals to form derivatives of 2,3-MDMA to distinguish them...or use exotic and expensive stationary phases.  There is a paper by Tamer Awad that discusses this very problem, *here*.



G_Chem said:


> It's not far fetched to see mostly MDP2P (or analogous substances like the glycidate) like we do here in a sample although I wonder how common it is..  I also wonder how active a pill like this would even be?..


Note that this was a test of only one pill and that pill was never consumed so I just don't know.



G_Chem said:


> Another huge discovery from that research is these labs are using the glycidate as is to synthesize (or at least this one did..).


...or the unscrupulous criminals did not even bother to make the synth because thay noticed the the precursor is psychoactive by itself.



G_Chem said:


> How far off is MDP2P from MDMA on GCMS?


Quite distinguishable because of the different mass.


----------



## G_Chem

Thank you so much for coming in to confirm and explain further.  Especially regarding the differentiation between the two via GCMS.

This could be our culprit right here...  This discovery is huge and now we finally can tell people they aren't crazy to think there's a difference.  And lab tests can no longer be fully trusted (well they never could but now we have proof for those who don't believe.)

Well I think this could really explain the high availability of this precursor, I'm curious what this intermediate is made from.  Cuz if I'm correct this couldn't be made from safrole or piperonal very easily right? We'd need something with the 2,3 configuration over the 3,4..  What starting precursor would that be?  I'll look up on that.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

Beenhead said:


> Was this RAMAN spectrum obtained with a solid like a KBr pellet


No, Raman spectrography does not require KBr pellets.  They are required for transmittive IR spectroscopy - a completely different animal.
Raman spectroscopy works as shown in *this video*.



Beenhead said:


> If it was a solid, then you would not always get a complete sample of the compound due to mixing and all that. These pills are not homogeneous at all.


If I could focus the laser spot down to micrometers, then I'd get a high spatial resolution, that would allow me to pick out the active substance from the excipient.  ...and if I had a computerized XY scanning stage, I could even produce a false-color image like this:





However my spectrometer is not such high-quality and my beam focuses down to only 2mm diameter, so I get an average spectrum of all of the substances that the beam illuminates.
If you know a wealthy drug aficionado, that would like to help me upgrade my equipment, then write me a private message 



Beenhead said:


> 3,4-MDMA and 2,3 should be distinguishable with good chromatography, because the two will not elute into the MS at the same time.


...but they do!  Read *this paper* on the subject.



Beenhead said:


> Sounds like this pill had a lot of precursor left in it, probably due to a bad synthesis.


Yes, or some "enterprising" individual decided to skip the synthesis altogether.



Beenhead said:


> My question is is 2,3-MDMA and 3,4-MDMA common products in the synthesis of MDMA?


Since "the MDMA" is really 3,4-MDMA,  then the right question to ask would be: "is 2,3-MDMA a common byproducts in the synthesis of 3,4-MDMA?
...and my answer to that question would be - "no".



Beenhead said:


> I could potentially see this happening in the course of some reactions,


All of the MDMA synth reactions, that I know of, are very careful not to even touch the methylenedioxy bridge.



Beenhead said:


> Remember this is one pill and is no way representative of even every trump pill out there.


Absolutely, and this should be emphasized over and over again.



Le Junk said:


> Lets continue testing more and more samples to confirm the  results are more widespread than just this particular pill.


I wish I could just  publish my add address and receive more preconsumed samples sent to test.  I'd need only 1mg... but the powers-that-be would knock on my door sooner than the postman 



Beenhead said:


> (was a Marquis reagent test done on the RAMAN pill??)


No, I don't have any and I'd have to mix some up. I really do not like the smell of the formaldehyde.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Le Junk said:


> Would the possibility of todays MDMA pills and powder actually being 2,3 MDMA instead of 3,4 MDMA be the reason the mgs are so high nowadays?


I haven't even read that 2,3-MDMA is psychoactive...except for this forum, so I just don't know.



Le Junk said:


> And if we can verify 2,3 MDMA is the culprit, could a simple reagent test be produced to distinguish against that and 3,4 MDMA?


Not any of the known reagents.  One would have to be devised that react differently with the 2,3-MDMA.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Goodwalt said:


> I think we need further input from Glubra. If this was the case it would be very interesting, but we need more evidence to back the claim that 2,3-MDMA was the culprit all along.


Note, that I have not detected any MDMA in my sample - only a precursor that *would* make 2,3-MDMA in the synth pathways that we know of.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Beenhead said:


> So why would chemists knowingly use this precursor to create a positional isomer of MDMA that has little history of use and would almost certainly be identified as inferior product by users?


Maybe it is not a question of preference but availability.



Beenhead said:


> Wouldn't these large labs have the ability to test their precursors to make sure they are the same?


They would...if they cared.



Beenhead said:


> Would the synthesis even work the same way with 2,3-MDP2P?


In my opinion - yes.


----------



## Glubrahnum

montel said:


> The problem is that there are far too many user reports that indicate the love/happiness is there, just as it always was, and it's merely a tolerance issue.


I thought so too, until *this experiment* performed on virgin users.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Dresden said:


> A Good GC/MS Should Be Able To Distinguish Between 3,4-MDMA & 2,3-MDMA.  The Latter Is Not Much An Empathogen.


Unfortunately "good" also means expensive...and derivatization is time consuming.  
This impacts the "bottom line" of the testing centers usig GC/MS, so it is not surprising that they care more about volume and cost than precision.

Raman spectroscopy is such a superior analytical technique, that I don't understand why the testing centers still bother with the old GC/MS.  

Raman can differentiate crystalline polymorphs, and with a polarizer/quarter-wave plate - it can even resolve enantiomers.
It is fast, cheap (does not use any consumables) and does not require any derivatization nor sample preparation (aside maybe from filing/sending down a pill to get below its surface).

The *Raman Imaging* also conveys a whole wealth of information.  
Imagine all testing centers publishing images like this and a spectrum for each false-color, too:





@ G_Chem
The brighter green spots on the darker green crystals are the crystalline polymorphisms.


----------



## Glubrahnum

SympatheticMD said:


> *?In 2014, during a survey by the INCB on the use of pre-precursor materials, several governments mentioned a substance called ?Helional? (2-methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)propanal), a novel precursor for MDA and possibly MDMA.
> *


It is definitely possible to make 3,4-MDMA out of Helional, Piperonal and Eugenol ...as well as from Sesamol, Ilepcimide and Vanillin (albeit with with difficulty).
Also, it is nothing new..._

WARNING - This is a JOKE:  "An eager beaver tried to synthesize Ecstasy from "Helional".  He got this precursor on the dark web from a reputable Chinese vendor and has gone through all the synth steps ...after which he consumed his end product.   He reported distinctly "Mongy" effects ...resembling phenobarbital intoxication."

_Who got this joke ?


----------



## Biscuit

Someone bumped this somewhat older and related thread...

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/593144-MDMA-doesn-t-make-me-happy-hyper-and-huggy-anymore
I am sorry, but for those you might recall mine and many other sensible BL's neverending battles with shugjenja about this issue, I am flabberghasted by his earlier posts...



shugenja said:


> Actually, it is probably the racemic mixture differences in MDMA that cause the experiential differences (assuming real MDMA).  More of the r-isomer and you get less stimulation and a more stoned effect, more s-isomer and you get much more stimulation.
> 
> Many people seem to forget that MDMA has stereo-isomers that act completely differently --- the r-isomer hits the 5HT2A receptors really hard, while the s-isomer is very stimulating.  The s-isomer also has a much shorter half life than the r-isomer and is metabolized differently.






shugenja said:


> I guess someone should tell these mice that:
> 
> [h=1]MDMA (N-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine) and its stereoisomers: Similarities and differences in behavioral effects in an automated activity apparatus in mice.[/h]
> Abstract:
> 
> "Racemic MDMA (0.3 ??? 30 mg/kg), S(+)-MDMA (0.3 ??? 30 mg/kg), R(-)-MDMA (0.3 ??? 50 mg/kg) and saline vehicle (10 ml/kg) were comprehensively evaluated in fully automated and computer-integrated activity chambers, which were designed for mice, and provided a detailed analysis of the frequency, location, and/or duration of 18 different activities. The results indicated that MDMA and its isomers produced stimulation of motor actions, with S(+)-MDMA and (±)-MDMA usually being more potent than R(-)-MDMA in measures such as movement (time, distance, velocity), margin distance, rotation (clockwise and counterclockwise), and retraced activities. Interestingly, racemic MDMA appeared to exert a greater than expected potency and/or an enhanced effect on measures such as movement episodes, center actions (entries and distance), clockwise rotations, and jumps; actions that might be explained by additive or synergistic (i.e. potentiation) effects of the stereoisomers. In other measures, the enantiomers displayed different effects: S(+)-MDMA produced a preference to induce counterclockwise (versus clockwise) rotations, and each isomer exerted a different profile of effect on vertical activities and jumps. Furthermore, each isomer of MDMA appeared to attenuate the effect of its opposite enantiomer on some behaviors; antagonism effects that were surmised from a lack of expected activities by racemic MDMA. S(+)-MDMA (but not R(-)-MDMA), for example, produced an increase in vertical entries (rearing) and a preference to increase counterclockwise (versus clockwise) rotations; (±)-MDMA also should have induced such effects but did not. Apparently, R(-)-MDMA, when combined with S(+)-MDMA to form (±)-MDMA, prevented the appearance of those increases (from control) in activities. Similarly, R(-)-MDMA (but not S(+)-MDMA) produced increases in episodes (i.e. jumps) and vertical distance that racemic MDMA also should have, but were not, exhibited. Evidently, the presence of S(+)-MDMA in the racemic mixture inhibited the appearance of those increases (from control) in behavior. Taken together, the various and complex effects of MDMA and its stereoisomers are noted and a strategy is suggested for future studies that stresses the importance of steric effects and interplay, probable interaction(s) with various neurotransmitters, and interaction(s) with the particular behavioral or biological event (or action) being measured."
> 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2994347/




And it just goes on. Sorry for not contributing anything new but this just couldn't be allowed to go through to the keeper without acknowledgement. 

I have never seen 2,3-MDMA in any forensic laboratory analysis of seized Australian pills or powder so I don't think it provides an answer to the wider problem. I still definitely feel it is due to a switch to a chiral precurrsor of PMK coupled with a switch to a different reductive amination catalyst. Both of these factors occurring at once, together with sloppy purification of any PMK derived from the glycidate, surely could produce MDMA with an uneven balance of stereoisomers; where perhaps even a small fraction difference between the two being enough to really skew any subjective effect: e.g. R:S 65:35.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Ill add more later.  But so funny you brought that up Biscuit, I remember reading that fairly recently and just laughing to myself.. That right there shows how little he actually knows coupled with the fact he was just wanting to argue for arguments sake...

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

Glubrahnum said:


> Maybe it is not a question of preference but availability.
> 
> 
> They would...if they cared.
> 
> 
> In my opinion - yes.




Thanks for the info on RAMAN. Many folks in my circle have been telling me that it is going to be the next big thing (I am an Orbitrap person)

This Paper shows a nice separation via liquid chromatography with just a regular hypersil column. Now  I am not an expert on GCMS, and only have gone as far as Thermo's version of the DB5 column, but I feel like with the proper gradient you would get enough separation to do some MSMS if you had a Triple? 


If you read chapter 1.4.3.1 of the Dissertation you posted (thanks by the way, I wish I could have done that) and look at Figure 24, you will see that the issue with GCMS of 2,3-MDMA and 3,4-MDMA is not that they elute at the same time, it is that their fragment ions are nearly identical, and MSMS would be needed to ID. But Fig 24 shows underivitized 2,3 and 3,4 MDMA; compounds 8 and 3, respectively eluting quite far from each other, further than I would have thought 

There was atleast one study where several species coeluted, however, with I think an RTX-5 column, which is I believe, Resteks version of Agielnt's DB-5 (the standard bearer of small molecule work) they were able to get sufficient separation.


----------



## Section813

Just a couple experience points I'd like to throw in ...

I had some of those Trump pills in October of last year. They were "meh". Sleepy pills for sure.

I've been avoiding Dutch producers for a while now. Long before this type of thread was allowed. Just to anyone out there that agrees with all this ... The Canadians for the most part are still using safrole so FYI. 

Big thanks to Glubra and everyone that is spending time on this. There are a lot of old lurkers watching this thread closely.


----------



## G_Chem

@Glubra- Just saw your little caption at the bottom regarding polymorphs.  Interesting.. Helps further support the theory mdma can be a mix of multiple polymorphs.  My guess is every batch of mdma is a varied ratio of hydrated polymorphs and anhydrous mdma.

@Section- If it weren't for other producers still doing it old school we would be in a bad place, I'd cry if I couldn't get legit product..  There's even US domestic producers who dish out amazing product.  I've heard nothing but good things about the G6 crew from west coast.  The old "mintman" (crew) from Chicago was amazing from like 2008 to 2013.  It's just often these amazing MDMA products don't make it as far as they should.

Thank you btw on your comments regarding the Trump pills, it's good to gather as many experiences as possible with a certain press that's been lab tested to see what patterns we can see.  Sure your trump pill could have been different but it also could've been the same, the more people who come in telling us their experiences with said pill as recently as possible the better.


Also back to the 2,3-MDP2P glycidate thing.. I cannot seem to find what the starting precursor would be.  I'm getting no results from my searches and I don't think there are any essential oils with the 2,3 configuration.  Anyone know anything on that?

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

If anyone has access to scifinder at school look the structure up


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> I cannot seem to find what the starting precursor would be.  I'm getting no results from my searches and I don't think there are any essential oils with the 2,3 configuration.  Anyone know anything on that?


IMO the precursor for 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate would be the 2,3-Dihydroxybenzaldehyde and glycidic acid


----------



## G_Chem

So found something interesting that may or may not be related but...

Back in the fall of 2016, I get a call from a friend asking if I'll come over to test out his product he just bought.  I gladly say yes and stop out.

The product upon initial examination appeared to me to be mdma.  It was a brownish crystalline substance with an odd smell I've never smelt but still somewhat reminiscent of safrole.

My friend and his girl each dosed with around 100-200mg from my poor memory (i think they started with 100 then may have redosed) and reported very weak effects unlike mdma as he claimed.

I tested the product and the results were unlike any mdma results I've seen before.  Close but not close enough and typically there's not much variation in the colors, or so I thought..  I pretty much told him it was bunk and that was that, or so I thought...


Well today I was looking at ecstasydata again, just skimming results, and looked up results with MDP2Pol (an impurity we've found provides mongy bad product, thanks to indigo and his testing) and found a result that matched perfectly what I had tested a good while back..

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=4878&mobile=1

Now this result was sent in near the exact date my friend also received his product.  It looks identical and biggest thing that caught my eye was the reagent results.  They looked almost identical, especially the odd marquis results that we magenta.  The only difference was this stuff wasn't in the same state as us but not the first time I've seen far away imports.

The product was:
MDMA- 13
MDP2Pol- 1

Now I'm starting to think that was same stuff my buddy had.  Note my buddy and his girl know good product, he has gotten me lots of good mdma and lsd over the years.  His description of the effects somewhat matches what we've heard before regarding product with this impurity by indigo.

It seems this impurity is either problematic itself or an indicator for something else (possibly piperonal as a starting precursor is the problem, or so it would seem..)

Also I'm now more aware of how reagent results can vary a good amount based on impurities present.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

FYI: I am ordering a fresh test kit. Going to post images of the color changes for the product with the MD2Pol-1 and the DW product so we can analyze. 

Interesting that G-Chem's sample and my sample have the same impurity and similar unimpressive effects.


----------



## Goodwalt

So can you detect MDP2Pol just from Marquis results? How can you do that?


----------



## G_Chem

Unfortunately I'm not so sure on that.. After looking at the other entries on EData it seems that was the only sample containing MDP2Pol to have that reddish magenta coloration.  With that said there's only a few other entries on there so I think it would be a good idea to see what the marquis does on your product indigo.  The color difference very likely could be down to another impurity the lab didn't detect.

I also remember either the mecke or mandelin doing something slightly off too from normal.

Indigo if you get the full 4 test kit deal and post images I can take some photos of different samples as well to compare.  I'll try to get photos of the reaction seconds after, 15secs after and 30.  (At least immediately after and 20-30 secs after..)

I think our best shot at finding a way to beat this thing is using the tools we already have at our disposal, i.e. common testing reagents.

(After re-reading some old regional threads, I was reminded of how much this problem has plagued the U.K. or at least some of its residents for a while now.)

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

Ive got all this MDMA And MDA and im worried its gonna suck after all these years.

You guys and your logic and experimentation... destroyers of nostalgia! Lol


----------



## benson7

Here in the UK it basically all went wrong from about 2010. I am glad people the world over are now starting to see things the same  way. I was initially impressed with these Dutch mega strength pills, but it became clear something was up, virtually no pupil dilation, limited euphoria and decreased duration of high and in particular a lack of empathy.


----------



## johnsonsbeamer

G_Chem said:


> I think our best shot at finding a way to beat this thing is using the tools we already have at our disposal, i.e. common testing reagents.



Could smell be a possible identifier?

I noticed quite a few posts throughout this thread, as well as others on Reddit, that mention the strong aniseed aroma associated with good quality MDMA.


----------



## Section813

johnsonsbeamer said:


> Could smell be a possible identifier?
> 
> I noticed quite a few posts throughout this thread, as well as others on Reddit, that mention the strong aniseed aroma associated with good quality MDMA.



Test kit is most important along with a trusted source. 

Smell is best used once you have checked off the two variables above.


----------



## Goodwalt

I think the aniseed smell usually appears in other substances (e.g. PMA) so it's not an indicator of MDMA alone.


----------



## scatterday

safrole treaty was the problem.


----------



## Section813

Goodwalt said:


> I think the aniseed smell usually appears in other substances (e.g. PMA) so it's not an indicator of MDMA alone.



True. You are looking for more of a root beer smell preferably. Anise is normally associated with black licorice in the US.


----------



## G_Chem

Another problem with using smell as an indicator is that essential oils can be added after the fact.  This was done in early 2000's to ecstasy tablets as people associate that smell with good pills.

Like section said, smell should be just one of many things to check.

With that said, it seems more often than not good product does have this smell.  Also with safrole being more uncommon these days, it's less likely someone would waste it to disguise bad product.

Haha also beenhead where you from? If you have access to real MDA your more likely to have legit good product.  It seems there's a correlation between MDA availability and the shitty MDMA, areas with the shitty MDMA have little to no MDA.  Whereas areas with plentiful safrole mdma have no shortage of MDA either.  I believe this has to do with different synth routes but at this time am not aware how..

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

Today I took a Raman spec of a brown sugar-like powder brought by a friend of a friend from Vancouver, BC.  The result was 3,4-MDMA tartrate and traces of Piperonal (not counting the excipient).  I will clear it as soon as I put it through XRF, to make sure there are no heavy metal contaminants (especially mercury).  Good friends are hard to find...


----------



## Beenhead

GC- im from the sunshine state, but im not dealing with local retailers

I wish I wasnt so absorbed in my shit when in grad school I could have really done some good 

Glub, I may have asked , but is RAMAN fully qualitative ? Or can you get some idea of proportions at the least or full quant at the most?


----------



## Glubrahnum

The good machines are quantitative.  Mine has such a high noise floor that it is only partially so.
The good ones can resolve enantiomers quantitatively, too. Mine cannot perform that feat at all.
Spatial resolution notwithstanding...


----------



## Glubrahnum

@ALL

Is there* a country* in this world, that would not fine me, nor SWAT me nor arrest me nor confiscate my equipment for receiving drugs by mail and testing them?  The amounts involved in testing are in the 1mg range...
Only informed legal opinions, please.


----------



## Section813

Glubrahnum said:


> @ALL
> 
> Is there* a country* in this world, that would not fine me, nor SWAT me nor arrest me nor confiscate my equipment for receiving drugs by mail and testing them?  The amounts involved in testing are in the 1mg range...
> Only informed legal opinions, please.



Once the parcel crosses a state line it's federal. Additionally you are entering into a conspiracy once 2 or more people are involved. I doubt a federal prosecutor would be interested but it would be well within his right to indict. Ultimately I would say confiscation of your equipment would be the minimum. Provided you don't have priors your points under federal guidelines would likely not exceed the needed amount for incarceration. All that being said the conviction rate in federal courts is >98% so ...

I truly wish I could tell you different because your work would be extremely valuable.

This is in the US. I can't speak towards other countries.


----------



## G_Chem

@Glubra- So I'm assuming this mdma was of Canadian origin.. Interesting both the piperonal and the use of the tartrate salt.  Any word to the quality of this product or no? Also did anyone you know try the trump pills either?

@Beenhead- Ah yea I know that states rep for mdma and it ain't good lol I don't blame you at all for grabbing from elsewhere.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

For those that want to show someone what real mdma feels like, read this new experience report on erowid..

https://erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=111464

I can relate to this one so much.  Especially the feeling of this being real, that's something I notice of only the best and cleanest product, that feeling that what you are experiencing is something being unlocked with inside of you.  That it's real and accessible at all times if we choose and know how to..

I've had quite a few rolls to the level of that report and hope everyone can feel that at least once in their lives.

-GC


----------



## psy997

I'd actually forgotten a bit, and that brought it right back. Thanks for sharing, G_Chem.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> @Glubra- So I'm assuming this mdma was of Canadian origin..


 I assume so, too.      





G_Chem said:


> Interesting both the piperonal and the use of the tartrate salt.  Any word to the quality of this product or no?


 I run the XRF today at work and there were no mercury peaks (only traces of aluminum and manganese), so I have cleared it for consumption. The tartrate salt was a surprise to me, too.  I have recommended a 49% higher dose because of that.  I will know more about the in vivo effects when they consume it during the weekend.       





G_Chem said:


> Also did anyone you know try the trump pills either?


  AFAIK the Trump pills were never consumed.


----------



## G_Chem

@psy- No problem man  that person did an amazing job describing an indescribable experience..

@Glubra-  Can't wait! Thank you so much, this type of research is beyond appreciated..

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

G_Chem said:


> @Glubra- So I'm assuming this mdma was of Canadian origin.. Interesting both the piperonal and the use of the tartrate salt.  Any word to the quality of this product or no? Also did anyone you know try the trump pills either?
> 
> @Beenhead- Ah yea I know that states rep for mdma and it ain't good lol I don't blame you at all for grabbing from elsewhere.
> 
> -GC



I see no reason to buy drugs from people in my town ever again quite honestly. How can you trust some douchebag that knows nothing about what he has and no way to hold his feet to the fire of impartial review? 
When I was young and rolling, probably 18 years ago, the MDMA in florida was amazing quality. But somewhere in the area of 2005 or 6 the quality just seriously plummeted and I lost any desire to do it again. Im not a fan of pretending to roll on Meth!


Yeah, I thought he piperonal was interesting, as it is a precursor of the precursor so I am curious of the quality


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:
			
		

> Can't wait! Thank you so much, this type of research is beyond appreciated..


 I still don't have that in-vivo data but I do have something new to report.
Out of the curiosity spurred by the tartrate salt, I have convinced a colleague of mine to let me use a spectrometer at his workplace, because it is a better machine all around and can resolve enantiomers (mine could not). The results are halfway what I expected, namely the ratio of the R to the S enantiomer is 62/38 most likely due to non-racemic tartaric acid used to make the salt ...and subsequent washings/recrystallizations.   

@Beenhead:
The Piperonal constituted 0.8%, and 3,4-MDP2P 0.3%


----------



## Glubrahnum

My line breaks are disappearing.  WTF?


----------



## G_Chem

@Glubra- You keep blowing my mind lol.

So the isomer theory guys may have been right if there's more mdma tartrate out there then we realize?

It's becoming obvious though that there's many issues occurring at once just as we originally thought which makes this entire issue very complex.  Complex yet intriguing..

It's hard to know if they used plain ol MDP2P or the glycidate even with it showing just MDP2P because it could be byproduct from a one step synth from the glycidate for all we know..

Very very interested to hear the report  from the anonymous guy trying this.

This isomer variation is the nail in the coffin too for those who ever argue otherwise.  That's got me so excited.  To be honest I feel there's been isomer variation even long before this but hard to know for sure. This is awesome stuff and I hope people like Biscuit get in here and see this.

If reports for this batch come back disappointing I think I will seriously have to concede to the fact isomers are very possible to blame..

@Beenhead- Yea I've always been very lucky in my old area having never used the dark web and almost never buying bunk product (out of my 13years I've taken only one bad pill, copycat chi-mint press, learned to always always test) but I just moved so I'm assuming that may change for awhile.  Especially now that my new city only has a few EData entries and they're all bunk lol, the sweet days may be over for me..

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

There are a couple things here

The Tartarate Salt will be heavy, and will require a higher dose than, say, the HCL. So my questions is why would they even make this salt? Its not like they couldnt get ahold of HCL to make the correct salt. Also, Arent some salts of TA complexed with multiple TAs ? 

62 R and 48 S. 

d-MDMA which I believe is S-MDMA, which is the best MDMA. d-Tartaric Acid is the cheapest to get as a sinlge enantiomer, and Racemic is farily common. 
Seems like if they were using Tartaric Acid as a way to try and get the more active MDMA enantiomer (which is the only reason I can think of to do this) They got it backwards!

This means that they did pretty much everything right in the synthesis, and fucked the salting and precipitation..

What I was thinking is they maybe wanted to use R-TA to make the tartaric acid salt of R-MDMA and precipitate it, leaving the other enantiomer in solution. But they did it backwards and got the wrong one.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> @Glubra- You keep blowing my mind lol.


 It's not me. It's just a good machine.  





G_Chem said:


> So the isomer theory guys may have been right if there's more mdma tartrate out there then we realize?


 It is hard to judge how much of it is out there based on one sample.  





G_Chem said:


> It's hard to know if they used plain ol MDP2P or the glycidate even with it showing just MDP2P because it could be byproduct from a one step synth from the glycidate for all we know..


 I really looked for peaks of any Glycidate and its decomposition products and I just did not see any.
IMO it is likely they used a synth similar to *this one*.  





G_Chem said:


> This isomer variation is the nail in the coffin too for those who ever argue otherwise.


 Note that the 12% skew from the racemic ratio might not be enough to have a perceptible effect.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Beenhead said:


> The Tartarate Salt will be heavy, and will require a higher dose than, say, the HCL.


Yes, that is why I recommended they increase their dose by 49% relative to the hydrochloride salt.



Beenhead said:


> So my questions is why would they even make this salt? Its not like they couldn't get a hold of HCL to make the correct salt.


Maybe the motivation was economical because they thought that the extra weight of the tartrate salt will increase their profits.  Thinking this way, they should have gone for the citrate. 
They might not have been aware, that non-racemic salting means some loss of one MDMA enantiomer.



Beenhead said:


> Also, Arent some salts of TA complexed with multiple TAs ?
> d-Tartaric Acid is the cheapest to get as a sinlge enantiomer, and Racemic is farily common.


From what I've seen, a chiral TA is easier to get in Europe than the racemic one.  I don't know about Canada.
One could always racemize it by simple heating, though ...but to do anything about it, one has to be aware of this issue first.



Beenhead said:


> 62 R and 48 S.
> d-MDMA which I believe is S-MDMA, which is the best MDMA.


From what I read, the S enantiomer is the more potent one, dosage-wise, but it *does not* produce the "magic" alone without the R enantiomer.
I don't know, what enantiomer ratio produces the best "magic" - maybe 50/50 or maybe some other one.
Does anyone know ?



Beenhead said:


> Seems like if they were using Tartaric Acid as a way to try and get the more active MDMA enantiomer (which is the only reason I can think of to do this) They got it backwards!


Well, there are also economic reasons ...like greed to maximize their profits, etc...
Chemically, this did not have to be deliberate move on their part.  They could have just dumped in any ol' tartaric acid, they could get a hold of, without caring about its chirality.  ...which would be dumb, but there is a lot of "dumb" out there.



Beenhead said:


> This means that they did pretty much everything right in the synthesis, and fucked the salting and precipitation..


Yes,  ...but maybe, just maybe, we are dealing here with an "artist" who wanted to give "more chances" to the "weaker" R enantiomer, because he knows something I don't.


----------



## Goodwalt

We need an experience report from 150 mg of this non racemic mdma tartrate, I think.


----------



## Biscuit

> This isomer variation is the nail in the coffin too for those who ever argue otherwise. That's got me so excited. To be honest I feel there's been isomer variation even long before this but hard to know for sure. This is awesome stuff and I hope people like Biscuit get in here and see this.



I am seeing I am seeing, I am not surprised but grateful to all of those pushing closer and closer to an answer.

The tartrate situation is interesting and if that is introduced into the equation as well, is it any wonder that truly racemic mdma is no longer the norm.

I have often wondered whether sites like ecstasydata are accurate in reporting on the type of mdma salt in the substance. They report the HCL salt almost without question, but if the mdma was there as a tartrate, then the amount of the salt is going to be far greater than normal.

Most forensic laboratories, certainly those in Australia, simply report the quantity of mdma molecule present and the salt part is disregarded (which is why depending on the lab, the max purity of mdma being 87% or whatever it is is actually true). It would be interesting to know for those labs reporting the salt, whether they always report this accurately. 

I still think glycidate and dodgy/cost cutting reductive amination techniques will produce a different type of mdma from a racemic one with or without the tartrate. Maybe the tartrate is getting used because what is produced is so far skewed in R direction, without it, the product will be bunkem.

There is no doubt in my mind that mdma produced from safrole to pmk and then aminated with sodium borohydride will produce the best and most consistent product of the kind that I can remember at least.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Goodwalt said:


> We need an experience report from 150 mg of this non racemic mdma tartrate, I think.


You'll need to wait for the weekend for that.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Biscuit said:


> I have often wondered whether sites like ecstasydata are accurate in reporting on the type of mdma salt in the substance. They report the HCL salt almost without question,


If this is true and criminals have figured out, that testing centers report the hydrochloride without a question, then they would be stupid not to use the heavier salts, because chemicals like the Tartaric Acid and Citric Acid are dirt cheap compared to MDMA precursors and reagents.

- using racemic Tartaric Acid would give them 49% more profit, and
- using the Citric Acid would give them 68% more profit.

...comparing to the hydrogen chloride and assuming, that the price of 1g of any MDMA salt is the same.


----------



## G_Chem

@Glubra- The synthesis you outlined is the same that I theorize was/is used for indigo's lackluster product.  From my research it seems MDP2Pol would also be an impurity found from that synth, whether it was cleaned out in some way or another route was used we aren't sure..

My guess is this product will also be lackluster but I could be wrong.  I'm thinking it will be ok but not great, kind of the middle ground of the worst mongy crap out there.

Glubra I know you say it's just the machines but it takes a dedicated soul to have access and use em..


Also this is far from the first time the tartrate salt has been used, it's the second most common salt and has been found in the past.  There's also rumors MDA tartrate is somehow more potent, but not so sure on that..

And regarding the tartrate being the source for the skewed isomer ratio, I think I may agree with Biscuit that it could be something else causing it.  (Glycidate maybe? What if it was a highly efficient conversion to MDP2P?) Tartaric acid is typically always labeled wether it's racemic or single isomer, even when bought at the lowest level (i.e. wine making shops, etc).  Chemists can be both lazy and stupid but that'd be next level stupidity in my book to not be aware of the exact isomer of tartaric acid is being used.  Although I've been surprised before..

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

OK, here is the preliminary report:
Three males aged 36, 38, 42, with body weight between 75kg, 85kg and 92kg, ingested 130mg, 140mg and 200mg, respectively, of the R62/S38 3,4-MDMA tartrate today on an empty stomach in a capsule form, followed by two bottles of Gatorade each.
The first two were virgin users with no history of MDxx nor stimulant nor antidepressant use.  The third and the oldest one has used MDMA approximately 30 times in his life and had his last dose on New Year's Eve.

Within 20-30min the onset became apparent, with visible full Mydriasis in all subjects.  One virgin user had what looked like a panic attack with rapid breathing and self-reported "pins and needles" in his extremities and chills.  This state has lasted 15min while he had to sit down.
Afterwards, while waiting for a taxi to go to a night club, I noticed obvious Trismus in all subjects.  A smartwatch showed pulse rates from 100-130bpm.  Their hands felt warm to my touch but not hot.  There was no visible perspiration ...and maybe a little fidgeting.

I was a witness but not a participant.  I did not go with them to the venue and I'm waiting for them to come back to get the full relation of their experiences.  They went equipped with 8 bottles of Gatorade and a well known night club with good air conditioning was picked for this occasion.


----------



## G_Chem

Interesting...

I've always kinda thought isomers couldn't play that much of a role, at least to the point we see with the Dutch product.  If you look at reports of people who've tried the two separate isomers (rare I might add..) it seems both isomers provide a decent effect.  Although I guess if the ratio was skewed even more to the R it could be a different story..

My doubts on this batch came purely from the fact it was made from piperonal but I may have been wrong.  Maybe the purity was high enough where it didn't really matter the starting precursor.

Im curious to see the duration of their experiences, my guess is they will be on the longer end of spectrum.

So far so good on this experience report though.  To be fair in regards to that synth route, it was quite popular and in use long before the drought of late 2000's.  While an impure batch from this route could be lackluster, with high enough purity it's probably hard to tell a difference.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Some seriously exciting developments here!

Interesting that these users had mydriasis after 20 to 30 minutes and one dose. That seems promising. I ran across a pic of me from a year or so ago on the sleepy product I have had access to. Photo was taken after 3 capsules of 100 mg had been consumed, and I had limited mydriasis in the photo. 

Can't wait for the full report. I am especially interested to know what kind of empathy is reported.


----------



## G_Chem

I'm definitely on the edge of my seat right now.  We are looking at the first report of a skewed ratio non-racemic mdma being consumed and reported on (that we are aware of that is).  We've only seen racemic and separated isomers, although I do remember reading somewhere (shulgin?) that a ratio of 70/30 S/R is preferred by most.  The tartrate likely will effect things too but probably to a lesser degree.  How, I don't know..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Just reading that user report from Erowid...

This report reinforces many of the things we have been talking about and recalling. The huge eyes (that everyone notices); the anxious, "too much" come-up; and of course, the limitless and un-ignorable love. 

@Beanhead Things went downhill for my supply in 2005 too. I am also in the southern USA. Also, I don't see us as "destroyers" of nostalgia, but preservers of it.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Just a quick update:
Got a text message that guys stayed in the club till 5am and danced most of the time and they are happy and feel well.

P.S.
I put them in the taxi around 10pm


----------



## Tranced

johnsonsbeamer said:


> Could smell be a possible identifier?
> 
> I noticed quite a few posts throughout this thread, as well as others on Reddit, that mention the strong aniseed aroma associated with good quality MDMA.



Definitely not. IIRC it's not the MDMA that smells of aniceed, but other chemicals from the synth. Also, it'easy to thwart this test by adding aniseed or whatever.


----------



## G_Chem

@Glubra- Hell ya man thank you!

I think the initial assessment that the R-isomer is to blame is false after this experiment.

My theory is that isomer variation is something we've been dealing with, potentially since the beginning of mdma use.  Way back I made quite argument for there being variation of MDA, and while the difference between the isomers of mdma is less than that of MDA, it's still noticeable enough to someone skilled in differentiating between minor molecular changes.

Duration sounds exactly like I expected.  I believe both isomers are pleasurable just different.  For instance right now I have two batches that I feel one is S heavy and one is R heavy.  Completely theorized remember..

The supposed S heavy batch is a bit more potent, with 80-100mg producing strong outwardly social effects and seemed highly desired by those that tried it.  Only thing is it lasts max 3-4hrs, come up in 30min.

The supposed R heavy batch is less potent requiring 110-130mg dosage with a much longer overall comeup which started at 45min and doesn't seem to let up until hour and 30min in.  The intensity of the effects especially the socialization isn't as intense but still plenty of empathy and love.  The duration was much longer though, it felt as if it just slowly faded off.  I was still feeling it at 5am after dosing around 7-8pm the night before.

Some may say it could be possibly MDA contamination but I know MDA very well and that wasn't it.  Both batches consistently produce the effects I describe above, both were highly regarded but a few said they preferred the intensity (even with shorter duration) of what I presume to be the S heavy stuff.  I preferred the longer lasting stuff though personally, I love rolls that last forever like that.

If I were to make a guess, what I outlined above is the differences we'll see with isomer heavy batches...  Both good just different.  I feel if the ratio were too skewed however it'd become undesirable.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Still rolling right now after a good day with the family out in nature.  I haven't rolled since NYE (as usual..) and still feeling the love so figured I'd come gush on here for a minute..

It makes me so happy to finally have found a group of people who not only believe in the power of an mdma batch from one to the next, but actually strive to find the answers as to why.  I have a feeling this thread will be highly quoted and referenced in the future.  So excited to be a part of this..

Glubra much respect to you brother, we would not be any closer to our answers if it wasn't for you man..  If there was an award for underground researcher of the year, it'd be all you..

Much love to the rest of ya'll as well who've done their part to keep the topic alive.  Too many to name, but love ya guys for not letting the good name of mdma get tarnished.

End gush session.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

The feeling is mutual.


----------



## scatterday

A dual solvent recrystalization/single solvent plus some piracetam is what I had to do to experience something identical to the old school MDMA feelings we all love and cherish. It was an enlightening and therapeutic experience. Onset for my best MDMA experiences have always been 2 hours for some reason. 

Fast metabolism, 60kg male 26 years old, 11 Years of experience with MDMA/ecstasy, Always reagent test my products before consumption. 

The crystals I ended up with after the purification were like clear shards of ice from a freezer or sharp bits of broken glass perhaps. I'd say by-products and contaminants/probable adulterants may be the cause of the physiological and psychological feelings not being the same as they used to be.

It may be worth others investigating into dual solvent recrystalizations and single solvent washes to test this theory because to me I knew what I felt was identical to how I felt years ago. Providing you have a grasp on basic chemistry for personal consumption I think it's fine.

To break things down this is what I did. Although I highly encourage looking up a proper guide on purifying your MDMA. I feel as though have missed some crucial details and it would be dangerous to follow my guide but it was a rough explanation.

-Bake epsom salts in the oven for a certain duration and collect the anhydrous magnesium sulphate (cannot recall the temperature nor duration as it was too long ago, All I do remember is the temperature was hot and it was baked for a long duration). Here is a youtube guide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhE6CM6Qbws

-Add the product you're left with "desiccant" to some acetone to ensure all H20 has been removed from the acetone.

-After a day or two filter out the acetone with non bleached coffee filters or pipettes so ensure no desiccant is filtered through.

-Pour acetone over your MDMA to wash away any impurities, I performed this multiple times and ended up with a powdered MDMA which was white in color. 

-Now to recrystallise the MDMA it needs to be dried and added to a beaker with anhydrous isopropyl alcohol (Can be purchased from a pc store/IT store)

-Break off the end of a matchstick and add it to your MDMA powder and isopropyl alcohol mixture to prevent the liquid from superheating, (proceed to heat up this mixture)

-Heat until all MDMA powder is fully dissolved then slowly start reducing the temperature of your hot plate/burner/heating device.

-Cool down slowly for larger crystals to form and ensure all isopropyl alcohol has been evaporated and cleaned prior to consumption or cool down quickly for smaller crystals. (I slowly reduced the temperature and after it was taken off the hot plate on the stove I set it on my heater to form larger and clearer crystals.

Edit after reading the MDMA report on erowid I can confirm the MDMA after the duel solvent recrystalization was nearly identical although his ability to describe the experience would be far beyond my capability of putting that into a report so thoroughly. 

I'd have to make an errowid report next time I decide to wash my product. Last consumption was a month or two ago. Would like to give it at least another few months before another experience and put together a comprehensive report of the night/experience.


----------



## indigoaura

Scatterday, I am intrigued by your proposition. However, I have 0 chemistry experience. I would have to find a more thorough step by step guide (ideally with pictures). What are the risks of attempting something like this and botching it?


----------



## indigoaura

There is some interesting info scattered throughout this article about the MAPS process:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/how-to-legally-buy-a-kilo-of-pure-mdma


----------



## G_Chem

Sending you a hug from the Midwest indigo 

The process outlined above is ideal for getting nice crystals.  It's also nearly impossible to mess up so long as you keep all washing/recrystallization solvents after use in case they still contain product.  I'd willing to give it a go myself too on a small amount of product although I haven't had mdma in awhile I'd feel needed it.  If you can't find one indigo or need help ever just PM me, I can help you with whatever questions you have.

Also I hate to be a stickler but technically the above isn't a dual solvent recrystallization, it's a solvent wash followed by a single solvent re-X.  Still the most ideal way to do it though for most anyone looking to try.  This is how most chemists clean their product after an A/B.

Scatterday so what exactly is the match heads purpose? As a boiling stone to reducing bumping? That part confused me.

-GC


----------



## Jediknight36

This thread is super interesting to me. Following intently.

And yeah, I'm confused with the matched end too. Are you just talking about the wooden end the lightey end?


----------



## scatterday

It prevents the liquid from superheating and acts as a boiling stone from memory.

Mdma can breakdown if the liquid is superheated so the matchstick prevents this.

Make sure the phosphorous isn't on the end though (just the wooden bit in the mixture.) 

Use new matches too not old ones. That have been sitting around for years.

This is what I was told to do and it worked. My experience was nearly identical to the erowid report here.

Your mdma just needs a wash and recrysyalization.

You'll know if you've done it right because the crystals will be see through like glass or clear ice.

DISCLAIMER- Make sure all solvents have evaporated and been wiped clean prior to consumption.


----------



## scatterday

indigoaura said:


> Scatterday, I am intrigued by your proposition. However, I have 0 chemistry experience. I would have to find a more thorough step by step guide (ideally with pictures). What are the risks of attempting something like this and botching it?



Death, Permanent/Temporary organ damage or wasted/impure product.


----------



## G_Chem

Ah ok I see, thanks for clarifying..

How would someone die from botching the above procedure? I'm assuming you'd have to drink copious amounts of solvent for that to happen.  Wasted product from carelessness seems more likely.

Also man I'm curious, did you get to compare the product before washing and re-X and after?

-GC


----------



## Goodwalt

If you let the solvent evaporate I assume you would recover most of the lost product.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Exactly.  You'll recover ALL the product.  So the chances of messing up so long as you don't throwaway any solvents is nil.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

In reference to the the R62/S38 3,4-MDMA tartrate test on Friday, I am happy to report that everyone has recovered with only 8-12h of sleep and has gone to work on Monday without problems.
The duration of the effect was 6-7h with approximately 30min onset, without redosing.
The most experienced person, that has taken it before, reported feeling depressed on Sunday but not on Monday, but the other two virgin users reported being warm with a pleasant memories and afterglow on Saturday and Sunday.

Apparently, they were dancing all night on Friday and were suffering from calf-cramps from the overexertion, the next day.  They also complained about sore jaws and eye-wiggles, while under the influence.

Psychologically they reported very loved up experiences, especially with interactions with other people at the party.  One of the virgin users said "Oh my God, the people were so wonderful, I never realized they could be so wonderful before!".
Apparently the two virgin users were feeling so good being together on the back seat of the taxi, that they were procrastinating getting out of it until the driver got exasperated with them and started swearing.

There is much more that I could write, but I am generally an uptight person and words describing other people's feelings do not come easy to me.


----------



## scatterday

G_Chem said:


> Ah ok I see, thanks for clarifying..
> 
> How would someone die from botching the above procedure? I'm assuming you'd have to drink copious amounts of solvent for that to happen.  Wasted product from carelessness seems more likely.
> 
> Also man I'm curious, did you get to compare the product before washing and re-X and after?
> 
> -GC



Yes I have compared both product prior and post solvent wash and they were 2 completely different experiences. Though I have a small amount of even better MDMA I'm willing to do a solvent wash on.

Pre washed product left me with brain zaps, Depression post 2 days of consumption which lasted upto a week, Anxiety on the comedown, Little to no nystagmus and bruxism.

Post washed product left me with an experience identical to the erowid report or identical to the MDMA we all know and cherish. I was left with a warm afterglow for days and it changed my perception on life towards others. I feel as though since experiencing the washed product I'm more of an empath and put a priority in looking after others before myself.

You could say it helped me connect with my former self in a way.

My anxiety disappeared post experience and it was extremely therapeutic. Sure my company could have been better. I noticed my eyesight was less blurry too (Something I experience strongly for most of the mdma highs/experiences I have.) and I was more clear headed.

Strong nystagmus throughout the night, Feelings of openness and communication towards others, feelings of sincere love and connection with others. Everything appeared to visually look more beautiful and music sounded fantastic.

Death or injury as a result of consuming the crystals which haven't had the solvents completely evaporate off them prior to ingestion. Or alternatively with a duel solvent wash there is the probability of contaminating your product even further if you don't know what you're doing.

I need to do some more testing in a few months with the better product I obtained because this MDMA unwashed was just as good as the washed stuff I previously had and I'm happy to wash this even better product I have and publish a comprehensive erowid roll report.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> @Glubra- Hell ya man thank you!
> I think the initial assessment that the R-isomer is to blame is false after this experiment.


...and I think, the jury is still out because the 12% enantiomer skew of this case is too small to be conclusive.



G_Chem said:


> Way back I made quite argument for there being variation of MDA, and while the difference between the isomers of mdma is less than that of MDA, it's still noticeable enough to someone skilled in differentiating between minor molecular changes.


Detecting small enantiomer skews "in vivo" takes an experienced connoisseur.  Unfortunately experience often comes with tolerance.



G_Chem said:


> I believe both isomers are pleasurable just different.  For instance right now I have two batches that I feel one is S heavy and one is R heavy.  Completely theorized remember..


Since my machines cannot quantify subjective effects I can only quote Shulgin writing that 3,4-MDMA enantiomers are magical only in mutual synergy.  I do not know if the best synergy occurs at the racemic 50/50, though.
Does anyone ?



G_Chem said:


> The supposed S heavy batch is a bit more potent, with 80-100mg producing strong outwardly social effects and seemed highly desired by those that tried it.  Only thing is it lasts max 3-4hrs, come up in 30min.
> The supposed R heavy batch is less potent requiring 110-130mg dosage with a much longer overall comeup which started at 45min and doesn't seem to let up until hour and 30min in.


I remember Shulgin writing, that the S enantiomer is more potent (dosage wise) than the R enantiomer, too.


----------



## Glubrahnum

scatterday said:


> Yes I have compared both product prior and post solvent wash and they were 2 completely different experiences...
> Pre washed product left me with brain zaps, Depression post 2 days of consumption which lasted upto a week, Anxiety on the comedown, Little to no nystagmus and bruxism.
> 
> Post washed product left me with an experience identical to the erowid report or identical to the MDMA we all know and cherish. I was left with a warm afterglow for days and it changed my perception on life towards others...
> Strong nystagmus throughout the night, Feelings of openness and communication towards others, feelings of sincere love and connection with others. Everything appeared to visually look more beautiful and music sounded fantastic.


That suggests a strongly active contaminant was present.
I wish I could stick it in my spectrometer and determine exactly what it was.


----------



## G_Chem

Thanks so much for that update!! Sounds like they had a great time!

I'm not so sure on that Glubra, while we definitely could use more research on it I think it can be safely assumed that the R-isomer isn't what's causing the problem.  It is the longer lasting of the two, for both MDA and MDMA.

The fact those guys had a 6-7hr roll with no redose likely confirms that R-isomer heavy product will lengthen the experience not shorten it like is claimed with lots of the crap Dutch mongy mdma.  I had a feeling they would be rolling for awhile and I think we can all agree 6-7hrs is on the long end of duration for most (likely racemic) batches of MDMA.

With that said it could still be an isomer issue, but as I said before if it is, the likelier of the two would be the S-isomer.  With its shorter duration, but I'm doubtful of that as well.  The S-isomer is reported to produce mydriasis at dosages as low as 60mg.

In regards to the best isomer ratio.  I feel I recall somewhere that a 70/30 S/R ratio was ideal but I can't remember where I read that so don't quote me on it.  I personally think it all comes down to preference.  I'll look around to see if I can find anything on that.

Also I should mention with my theory regarding MDA and varying isomers, that was based solely on experience reports from the early days compared to more recently, in combination with the info in PIHKAL.  It seems in days back, MDA found resembled the R-isomer in effect and duration.  (People claiming it can last 12+hrs.) Nowadays many batches only last 3-6hrs depending and less trippiness than reported before...  (Which resembles the S isomer.) In fact PIHKAL even changed the duration they had listed (originally 8-12 down to 4-6), I feel this was done because so many people were trying the "new" MDA and not getting the same duration.  Looking at these variances they match perfectly with the two isomers of MDA.

And to finish..

Your right that tolerance can come with experience but "can" is the main word here.  Tolerance with MDMA comes from neurotoxicity, preventing this is fairly easy if the right precautions are taken.  I myself have zero tolerance built to MDMA after 13yrs of use because I studied neurotoxicity extensively and know how to negate it.  Unfortunately this isn't the case for most 

Edit- Agreed on an active impurity being the problem.  Thanks for the response scatter 

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Here's a few refs regarding drug substitution in animals with the two isomers of MDMA.  Below I think will help prove that R-MDMA isn't to blame for mongy crap mdma.

"Discriminative stimulus effects of psychostimulants and hallucinogens in S (+)-3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) and R (−)-MDMA trained mice.  KS Murnane, N Murai, LL Howell, WE Fantegrossi."

To quote..

"In this regard, among the substituted phenethylamines, R(−)-enantiomers tend to have hallucinogen-like effects, whereas S(+)-enantiomers tend to have stimulant-like effects. In the present study, mice were trained to discriminate S(+)- or R(−)-MDMA from vehicle. Drug substitution tests were then undertaken with the structurally similar phenethylamine dopamine/norepinephrine releaser S(+)-amphetamine, the structurally dissimilar tropane nonselective monoamine reuptake inhibitor cocaine, the structurally similar phenethylamine 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT)2A agonist 2,5-dimethoxy-4-(n)-propylthiophenethylamine (2C-T-7), and the structurally dissimilar mixed action tryptamine 5-HT2A agonist/monoamine reuptake inhibitor N,N-dipropyltryptamine (DPT). S(+)-amphetamine fully substituted in the S(+)-MDMA-treated animals but did not substitute for the R(−)-MDMA cue. 2C-T-7 fully substituted in the R(−)-MDMA-trained animals but did not substitute for the S(+)-MDMA cue. Cocaine and DPT substituted for both training drugs, but whereas cocaine was more potent in S(+)-MDMA-trained mice, DPT was more potent in R(−)-MDMA-trained mice."

What's interesting to note here is that cocaine substitutes for both isomers but obviously the S being more potent.  If R-MDMA was unpleasurable and mongy I doubt this would be the case.

The next I'd like to show is this...

"Assessment of the MDA and MDMA optical isomers in a stimulant-hallucinogen discrimination.  Baker LE, et al. Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 1997."

To quote..

"Substitution tests were administered with the isomers of MDA and MDMA. In the second experiment, substitution tests were also administered with lower doses of each training compound and with the stimulant cocaine and the hallucinogen 2,5-dimethoxy-4-methylphenylisopropylamine (DOM). In both experiments, all of the isomers produced very few responses on the S(+)-amphetamine lever. In the first experiment, R(-)-MDA and R(-)-MDMA produced nearly complete substitution for mescaline. The results of the second experiment revealed partial substitution for LSD with both isomers of MDMA and S(+)-MDA, and nearly complete substitution with R(-)MDA for LSD. The present findings do not support previous reports that S(+)-MDMA and S(+)-MDMA substitute for S(+)-amphetamine."

What's interesting to note here is that both R-MDA and R-MDMA produced near complete substitution whereas the S isomers did not.  I'd consider pure Mescaline a stimulating empathogen with psychedelic/visual properties.  The fact the S-isomers didn't substitute is indicative to me that they are likely more stimulating than anything else.

It's also interesting to note this study found S-amphetamine didn't sub for the S isomers like previously found..


As has been said, the S isomer is more potent but the "magic" of mdma is lost.  My guess is the empathogenic effects may be more from the R-isomer, it seems the R-isomer has much greater impact on hormone levels.  As we know oxytocin is released during an mdma experience which helps with the bonding we feel while we roll.  My guess is the S-isomer provides more the socialability and euphoria whereas the R-isomer provides more the empathogenic and psychedelic aspect to MDMA.

I also want to say I don't trust much the information given in PIHKAL regarding r-mdma, everything else out there seems to contradict what it says and I have to conclude that there was some factor which skewed the notes (tolerance maybe? expectations?) not everyone is perfect even good ol shulgin.

So after looking at the facts we have to conclude R-MDMA is definitely not the cause for the sedating, zero empathy, short acting experience people report.

-GC


----------



## scatterday

Glubrahnum said:


> That suggests a strongly active contaminant was present.
> I wish I could stick it in my spectrometer and determine exactly what it was.



There are always left over contaminants and by-products/precursors in the MDMA.

Chemists have found a way to disguise that in the reagent test though.

I lost little to no product after the wash therefore the product wasn't strongly contaminated. I calculated the loss of product pre and prior wash and it wasn't much putting the MDMA at around 85+ % purity


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## Sopp1

I have tried to find an answer to why MDMA won't work on me. And have read a lot on this thread and many others. I have tried 4 times with the same product. Fear goes away and its nice to talk with my friend that i have done it with all times, but no euphoria or magic that i read about. We always waited 1-2 month between. 
Quick question, when we haven't gotten euphoric. Do we still need to wait 1-2-3 month til we try again? I have sample from another "batch" and would like to try it and see if there is a difference. 11 days since last time. No euphoria, not emptied serotonin "storage"?


----------



## avcpl

Interesting thread! 

I just want to add that I think people need to take into account how much interpersonal variation there can be with all things being relatively equal. 

What I mean is this:  I've been rolling for nine years now. I have used the same supply almost every time (lab tested safrole smelling old school pokeballs that I wisely invested in a long time ago). Almost every time I have almost every variable the same: setting, length of break, dose, music, company, temperature, health, empty stomach, etc. etc. etc.

I've kept a journal of every roll and still have had a wide variety of experience. I would say that of the 31 rolls that I've had in my life, I would put 12 as being truly magical, with the rest being good but not worth the recovery and a few being miserable. 

I have no idea why that is. For a long time I was doing the same and investigating racemic ratios and the like, but I think the main variable is my brain and how it happens to respond at the time. 

I have a feeling there are other like me but have multiple added variables on top of that...

Not saying in the least that there isn't something going on with today's pills, but know that *even with proven good quality MDMA and stable variables there can still be widely varied experiences! *


----------



## scatterday

I am still in firm belief piperanol is synth is the precursor to blame here. All reports of "different MDMA" all trace back to 2008 when the safrole treaty was signed. Safrole just makes the most sense to me and synthesising MDMA via other methods outside of alexander shulgins method is why the experience doesn't feel the same and it feels as though the "magic" has disappeared.

There was a huge dry spell that hit Aus around 2008-2009 when the treaty was signed and any sights of MDMA completely vanished for years then all of a sudden we have these super strong dutch MDMA pills being manufactured and MDMA is so readily available again. 

There have been official studies done and this is when the meth epidemic hit Australia. I remember reading somewhere about Aus being the top country in the world for meth usage which took a strong incline/influx around 2008-2009 as users were looking for an MDMA replacement.

The treaty that was signed is the problem why there is such a huge meth epidemic in Australia.

Something about that just seems off to me.

Neurotoxicity, Set and setting can be to blame but I feel as though the magic is never lost just how careless the chemist is when synthesising the MDMA.

The authorities don't realise what they've done when they do things like this because there was a strong incline/influx of meth usage from 2008-2009 onwards where users were looking for a replacement then started smoking meth via the pipe and/or ingesting it. I've confirmed this with numerous friends I used to consume ecstasy with years ago and they agree meth was their "party replacement" which has now turned into a habit. 

I refuse to touch it outside of some experimental testing. Too many of my good friends have been taken and changed by meth permanently.

I was told some time back directly from an online MDMA chemist that the perfect combination for an ecstasy pill consisted of combinations of mdma, mda and amphetamine sulphate. That's where you would get your "smacky pills" MDMA heavy and the amphetamine containing "speedy" MDMA pills.

Can't recall the dosages correctly but if I can roughly guess it was 90-100mg MDMA, 25-35mg MDA and some amphetamine sulphate.

Most of my friends enjoyed the speedy ones because of social gatherings and party purposes and the smacky ones for 3 people or less for more deep and meaningful conversations, bonding, feelings of intimacy and connecting with others on a strong emotional level. I recall strongly having great difficulty sleeping afterwards thanks to the amphetamine present within the ecstasy I used to consume although have no difficulty sleeping after MDMA I obtain now in it's crystal form. Smoking cannabis would always potentiate and bring back the high once it was gone so we used to smoke straight cannabis and generally get a 12 hour roll.

Smoking cigarettes used to feel good, We would always shake hands and call say "Best mates forever" and give each other kisses on the cheeks, Hug and cuddle each other forever and the warmth and connection between everyone was phenomenal.

I'd always want to have sex with girls I was with but never used to be able to maintain an erection. I just remember always being so horny on good MDMA around people of the opposite gender despite how attractive they were which is something I don't get on MDMA now unless I use meth whilst under the influence. 

This conversation ties back to amphetamine sulphate again due to the large amounts of dopamine released.

I even went as far as truly building up a connection with my house partners sister at the time whilst under the influence and asked her to date then snapped back into reality from the experience and realised what I had done. Needless to say this relationship lasted a long time although I didn't feel much for this girl but the MDMA definitely brought us closer.

Though as I said the key is safrole and because piperanol can be obtained so readily and easily as a precursor chemists had no other option but to synthesise our beloved MDMA with piperanol.

When washing my MDMA the old feeling was back though the MDA and amphetamine were and certainly notably missing from the experience. The question to what is missing I feel is the small amount of MDA and amphetamine sulphate along with incorrect methods of synthesising the drug via piperanol and not safrole. 

After all ecstasy is the party/rave drug. It was used in large social gatherings to give people energy to dance. Clean and pure MDMA is fun but nobody likes to be a couch potato all night with no motivation to dance.

The amphetamine potentiates the MDMA high too I feel and gives it legs from recent experience smoking meth whilst taking MDMA.

Some notable pills we used to take were disables/retards (handicap logo), crowns (3 point), Armani's, Doves, CK's, Euro's.

Consuming X purple crowns was one of my best experiences to date.

I still remember the old safrole smell of MDMA. The best way I can describe it was like a misty/dusty/feint aniseed/licorice/root beer smell.

I would remember that smell anyday. 

Anyways off to edata to try trace back some of these reports to see what I can dig up.

The quest for enlightenment, answers and knowledge still remains I'm afraid, Although I'm fairly certain I know what the answers are and nobody can do anything about that unless they're synthesising their own MDMA and experimenting with other drug combinations like the ones mentioned above.


----------



## SympatheticMD

I am once again amazed at how far this discussion has come.  I?m especially loving the references to articles that look at the effects of enantiomers on neurochemistry and endocrinology. That?s fantastic.  I was skeptical of the importance of racemic ratios, but I read just a tiny bit and it does seem that S is more potent and speedy, possibly via amphetamine-associated mechanisms, while R is more ?hallucinogenic? and binds serotonin and dopamine receptors with high affinity than S.

The last few pages of threads focused on several things, and I kept noticing the question of the precursor substance.  I honestly think this is the key to everything.  In my last post I included a link to a 2016 EU Drug Market report. 

Two things were very clear in this article.  First, the precursor availability determines everything about the synthesis, distribution, and sale of MDMA on a massive scale.  As a result, the legal powers that be focus on the sale of these precursors (frequently sourced from China) in addition to the presence of said precursors and by-products in confiscated drugs.  

Starting in 2008-2012 the amount of seized safrole oil-based precursors dramatically declined, while the seizure of piperonal, *PMK glycidate/PMK glycidide and their salts*increased. As of 2015, the production of mass MDMA focuses on novel ways of making alternate precursors, so any number of things are possible. 

*@G-Chem*you pretty much state this to a tee in post #538. This time period of safrole decline matches exactly the reports on this site when users began to experience a significant change in the quality of MDMA.  Furthermore, different routes of synthesis have different yields, so clearly mass producers will go for the third option in the table below because they make more money.  I did read an article on MAPS that indicated back in the 70s they were using both safrole AND piperonyl acetone to make MDMA, so perhaps safrole as the ultimate precursor is not the most accurate answer.  I do think whatever additions they are making to the new precursors and the changes in synthetic steps are having the effect.  What is the relevance of glycidate?  Although I have to admit that I agree with Scatterday that safrole is an ingredient I'd place a bet on in a horse race.  It just feels like the right answer.

According to this reference, the answer to the question ?are they using MD-P2P as a precursor? is yes.

_"Between 2006 - 2009 differences were observed in the amount of precursor chemicals seized that could have been used in synthesis of MDMA (Table 1.4). Various factors could have caused the difference in the amount of seized precursor chemicals such as changes in enforcement and changes in manufacture and trafficking [127]. However, the low amount of the precursor chemicals seized considering the amount of ?ecstasy? tablets on the market suggest that much of the precursors used for MDMA synthesis are not detected [36]._
_
_


_"In Europe in 2004, there was a decline in the amount (about 17 mt) of reported seizures of 3,4-MDP2P, with the last seizures reported in 2007. The decrease in 3,4-MDP2P seizures could have been caused by tighter controls on the manufacture of this chemical in China (traditionally the source of this chemical), after an agreement between China and the EU in 2009 to improve precursor controls [36]. However, it was also suggested by the UNODC in 2010 that the decrease in 3,4-MDP2P in Europe could have been caused by an increased demand of this precursor in other parts of the world where MDMA manufactured had increased, such as North America, South-East Asia and Oceania [36]."_





Thus, the mass production of MDMA (in contrast to smaller labs) will constantly shift and the determination of contaminants will shift with it, making testing for the ?undesirable components? very difficult.  What we DO know is that the shift from safrole as a starting point to piperonal and finally, and even worse, to glycidate/glycidide and novel salts is one important factor in the change in street MDMA quality, even though it tests as pure.   

Finally, several references I saw said that the purity and concentration of seized MDMA was consistently increasing, starting in 2010.  This means that whatever the change is in synthesis and the resulting structure of the ?mongy? MDMA is so subtle that even narcotic control agencies aren?t finding it (or looking for it) .  

So something about these changes in synthesis is creating a product that tests as more pure, yet also contains something that qualitatively alters the effect.  That could be a ton of things, no?

Whatever the case, looking at government or narcotic institutional reports provides some valuable information into what the mass producers seem to be using in their synthesis.

Secondly, the discussion of washing MDMA is *very*interesting.  Scatterday said that his experience was very much like what he remembered from earlier years, simply by ?cleaning? the MDMA.  So, what exactly does that process do from a chemical standpoint?  I understand that it ?removes contaminants?? but does it separate something like 2,3. MDMA from 3,4-MDMA or have an effect on racemic content?  Does it remove MDA?   Can someone explain briefly and simply what a process like that does and then tie it in to the more complex debate that has been laid out here?  What does a washed product like he made look like on machine analysis before and after cleaning? I think someone already asked this question, but it seems like a great next step to me.

I think this paper is really interesting.  It gets super in depth about the chemical analysis of MDMA, how it is made, how it has changed over the years, etc.  It had way more information than I could digest, but it included discussion of enantiomers and every type of analysis/machine that you guys have used.

https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/37538701/2014_Mifsud_Mario_94L00643_ethesis.pdf

?The Physical and Chemical Characterisation of 3,4-MDMA Ecstasy Tablets.  Kings College, London


----------



## scatterday

SympatheticMD said:


> Secondly, the discussion of washing MDMA is *very*interesting.  Scatterday said that his experience was very much like what he remembered from earlier years, simply by ?cleaning? the MDMA.  So, what exactly does that process do from a chemical standpoint?  I understand that it ?removes contaminants?? but does it separate something like 2,3. MDMA from 3,4-MDMA or have an effect on racemic content?  Does it remove MDA?   Can someone explain briefly and simply what a process like that does and then tie it in to the more complex debate that has been laid out here?  What does a washed product like he made look like on machine analysis before and after cleaning? I think someone already asked this question, but it seems like a great next step to me.
> 
> I think this paper is really interesting.  It gets super in depth about the chemical analysis of MDMA, how it is made, how it has changed over the years, etc.  It had way more information than I could digest, but it included discussion of enantiomers and every type of analysis/machine that you guys have used.
> 
> https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/37538701/2014_Mifsud_Mario_94L00643_ethesis.pdf
> 
> ?The Physical and Chemical Characterisation of 3,4-MDMA Ecstasy Tablets.  Kings College, London



The washing of MDMA will not wash any amphetamine based substances out of your product only purify/clean any contaminants and left over by-products from the manufacturing process. Whether or not this alters the isomer ratios is another thing to investigate.

If R-MDMA produces more hallucinogenic properties then by my limited experience in chemistry theory the wash would purify and isolate this isomer then remove or at least purify it and result in a S-MDMA stronger isomer ratio since it has more amphetamine like properties.

As I said just a theory which needs to be investigated on a higher chemistry level degree potentially via a mass spectrometer or another device capable of distinguishing isomer ratios.


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## scatterday

Happy to do some more testing with some washed MDMA, MDA and amphetamine sulphate combinations.

The key is getting the product as pure as possible by washing it and getting the dosage ratios correct.

Then again this all goes back to whether or not safrole alone is the cause here and if safrole synthesis could be affecting the isomer ratios in some way. 

*EDIT*- After some more research it appears that some of the statement I made to safrole appears to be correct 

"Any route that proceeds through the nitropropene or the P2P will produce a 50:50 split unless an asymmetric catalyst is used."

The question is why would the chemist bother to alter the isomer ratios with an asymmetric catalyst when one wasn't needed before with safrole if the route they take to manufacture their MDMA is via p2p with piperanol and it's much cheaper/safer for them to produce it this way without their precursors being intercepted by authorities.


----------



## scatterday

Sopp1 said:


> I have tried to find an answer to why MDMA won't work on me. And have read a lot on this thread and many others. I have tried 4 times with the same product. Fear goes away and its nice to talk with my friend that i have done it with all times, but no euphoria or magic that i read about. We always waited 1-2 month between.
> Quick question, when we haven't gotten euphoric. Do we still need to wait 1-2-3 month til we try again? I have sample from another "batch" and would like to try it and see if there is a difference. 11 days since last time. No euphoria, not emptied serotonin "storage"?



Are you taking SRI's, SSRI's, MAOi's?

Aka anti depressants or any other medication?


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## SympatheticMD

Everything I've read in my deep dive into Google Scholar indicates that while the different enantiomers of MDMA act differently on the brain, studies of confiscated tablets and wastewater analysis and research on the effect of MDMA dating as far back as the 1970s all indicate that the products contain racemic mixtures.  So at the moment, I'm doubting that a change in these ratios is likely to be the smoking gun in the discussion of "good" vs "bad" MDMA.  I have been loving the discussion of MDMAs effect on oxytocin, which is obviously a huge mediator in the empathetic and loving effect that we describe in old school ecstasy.
So, if MDMA is only getting MORE pure over the past several years, is it possible that 

a.  Old MDMA made via a different synthetic route contained a "contaminant" that potentiated the release of oxytocin via its interaction with serotonin release?
b.  New MDMA contains something that inhibits serotonin and/or it's stimulation of oxytocin release and this explains the decreased empathy?
c. Something related to amphetamine like compounds increase cortisol which decreases oxytocin (hence washing MDMA would eliminate chemicals that act to increase cortisol

Just some thoughts.

Also for Sopp1, there are a number of genetic variants that affect how serotonin is metabolized by the body and changes serotonin neurotransmission within the brain.  So you could just have genes that keep you from feeling the effects.  (Look up the "Warrior Gene").  There are others, but I forget the names


----------



## Beenhead

The two steps outlined above, in the washing and re crystallization procedure you are utilizing the solubility of MDMA in various solvents and temperatures. MDMA has terrible solubility in Acetone. You wash the MDMA in acetone, anything soluble in acetone is now gone. Dry the MDMA and heat Isopropyl, MDMA is soluble only slightly in iso, so by heating it you increase its solubility. Then the general practice is to throw this mixture in an ice bath now the solubility crashes, along with MDMA as a solid, crystallizing. Scratch the beaker with a glass stir rod if it is slow to occur. 

You generally pick these solvents based on what your products solubility as various temperatures. You want all the junk to stay soluble and MDMA to crystallize


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## scatterday

Beenhead said:


> The two steps outlined above, in the washing and re crystallization procedure you are utilizing the solubility of MDMA in various solvents and temperatures. MDMA has terrible solubility in Acetone. You wash the MDMA in acetone, anything soluble in acetone is now gone. Dry the MDMA and heat Isopropyl, MDMA is soluble only slightly in iso, so by heating it you increase its solubility. Then the general practice is to throw this mixture in an ice bath now the solubility crashes, along with MDMA as a solid, crystallizing. Scratch the beaker with a glass stir rod if it is slow to occur.
> 
> You generally pick these solvents based on what your products solubility as various temperatures. You want all the junk to stay soluble and MDMA to crystallize





This is incorrect and this is why anhydrous magnesium sulphate is added to a pure acetone mixture to remove any H20.

MDMA and Amphetamines are only soluble in h20 not anhydrous acetone or anhydrous isopropyl alcohol.

Both are strictly to be anhydrous otherwise you will loose product.

As I said I lost minimal product weighing it prior and post wash then the product I was left with a clear product rather than a looking like crystaline sand.

My loss of product was somewhere placing the MDMA at 85% pure because as you know 11% of MDMA is made up of HCL which would have likely purified the product to it's maximum potential of 89%.

Furthermore I have decided to get my equipment together to test this theory with a roll report unaffected by any other subtances then another roll report of the mdma, mda and amphetamine sulphate mixture.

To clarify on an ice bath that's partially correct.

If you prefer for your crystals to be smaller and more glass shard like drop it in an ice bath.

If you prefer larger clearer crystals you reduce temperature gradually so no contaminants and present within the recrystallization.

This is also why an ice bath is a bad idea because it causes moisture which can make it's way into your solution and a higher temperature on cooldown allows the heat to rise and push the h20 away from your recrystallization.

Another thing to note that this is an easy process and highly recommmend for recreational amphetamine users.

You will never go back to unwashed drugs again.

So smaller crystals cooled quickly=less purity and potential contaminants trapped inside.

Larger crystals= Lower risk of impurities trapped inside.

This information was given to me with someone very high up with a high degree in chemistry.

Hope this helps.

*Edit* just read the post and I read it incorrectly I thought you were saying mdma is soluble in acetone.

This is also why a boiling stone or if you didn't want to raise alarms by going into a chemical/science shop you could use a matchstick as a boiling stone to eliminate the risk of anhydrous isopropyl alcohol from superheating and destroying your product.


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## Beenhead

yeah... you totally misunderstood what I said Lol! All good!
I was giving a basic idea of what a solvent wash and recrystallization does. I get why you want to let the system cool slowly and form larger crystals. But I wonder how much different it will work? Usually, the standard practice is to do two or three recrystallizations to get pure product. 

Keeping your isopropyl anhydrous is going to be very difficult when left open to the air no matter what you do. That is why it is generally kept under a nitrogen atmosphere, or opened very sparingly when you have it. 

This is a method that is used to purify any organic compound and is taught in Organic Chemistry lab or advanced lab tech. 

I have not looked at the solubulity of these things, but there is a good chance this method would bring a long 2,3-MDMA, MDA, and amphetamine, but should get rid of precursors.


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## scatterday

Beenhead said:


> yeah... you totally misunderstood what I said Lol! All good!
> I was giving a basic idea of what a solvent wash and recrystallization does. I get why you want to let the system cool slowly and form larger crystals. But I wonder how much different it will work? Usually, the standard practice is to do two or three recrystallizations to get pure product.
> 
> Keeping your isopropyl anhydrous is going to be very difficult when left open to the air no matter what you do. That is why it is generally kept under a nitrogen atmosphere, or opened very sparingly when you have it.
> 
> This is a method that is used to purify any organic compound and is taught in Organic Chemistry lab or advanced lab tech.
> 
> I have not looked at the solubulity of these things, but there is a good chance this method would bring a long 2,3-MDMA, MDA, and amphetamine, but should get rid of precursors.



Both multiple washes with anhydrous acetone and IPA are fine.


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## G_Chem

Oh man, a lot to reply to so may take some time lol.



scatterday said:


> "Any route that proceeds through the nitropropene or the P2P will produce a 50:50 split unless an asymmetric catalyst is used."
> 
> The question is why would the chemist bother to alter the isomer ratios with an asymmetric catalyst when one wasn't needed before with safrole if the route they take to manufacture their MDMA is via p2p with piperanol and it's much cheaper/safer for them to produce it this way without their precursors being intercepted by authorities.



We theorize this altered isomer ratio is accidental not on purpose.  Thanks to Glubra we know it can and does occur, and while it's possible it was done on purpose my guess is that it wasn't..

The thing about chemistry is this.. We don't know shit about it in all honesty.  Us humans always think we are at the peak of our knowledge when in reality we are just scratching the surface.  My guess is, with the right conditions, isomers can be skewed to favor one of the other.  Earlier in the thread, LucidSDreamer made a good argument that it could occur.

I again hold strong to my belief that non-racemic MDMA is nothing new however..


And MD it's been awhile glad to see you back around.. 

In regards to oxytocin and other hormone release, it does seem as though R-MDMA may be mostly responsible for that.  My guess is that R-MDA has similar properties too.

MD you wrote a lot that I'd love to respond to but gotta rest up, be back later for more!

Edit1- Just found the reason why oral MDMA is better than all other routes..  I always thought it was the increased rate of MDMA to MDA metabolism (probably has some effect still..) compared to other ROA's.  Well just found out the metabolites HMMA and DHA are more potent at releasing the hormones oxytocin and vasopressin than MDMA.  This makes sense as to why MDMA feels speedier with less empathy when taken via other routes.

Edit2- I think I was wrong regarding R-MDMA being a more potent stimulator of oxytocin and vasopressin, the study I read said they both effect but S-MDMA is more potent..  R-MDMA is confusing..

-GC


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## SympatheticMD

I've been waiting for you G-Chem!  I keep going over this EXTREMELY long thread, and every time I find some old post where someone already discussed something that I ask weeks later.  I?m sure its gets annoying.  The more I read, the more I learn, and the more confused I get.

This stuff about different enantiomers behaving differently on neurotransmission is blowing my mind. The R/S thing and oxytocin is indeed confusing.  I must have read the same article you did, and the print was small, but the difference between the amount of oxytocin released was minimal overall in the two isomers.    

I found this super weird paper written by ? it?s impossible to describe.  I?ll post the link, and if you can make your way through all his bullshit try to find the list that has the documented effects of MDMA on neurophysiology . The list is incredible.  Ecstasy may be the messiest psychoactive drug I?ve ever seen.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987715004727#b0355

Since you didn?t get to my questions, ignore them.  I?m over focusing on oxytocin.  I can?t even find the words to ask what I want to know ? basically I?m trying to discern how tests are showing that MDMA is pure and yet it feels so different, presumably due to changes in synthesis.  What kinds of things do these analyses of MDMA NOT show?  If a methyl group is randomly present, would that be detected?

Also if you ever get bored, I?m confused by a paper I read that relates to the question above.  The authors were trying to trace production labs by using isotope mass spectrometry:

_?Drug profiling, or the ability to link batches of illicit drugs to a common source or synthetic route, has long been a goal of law enforcement agencies. Research in the past decade has explored drug profiling with isotope ratio mass spectrometry (IRMS). This type of research can be limited by the use of substances seized by police, of which the provenance is unknown. Fortunately, however, some studies in recent years have been carried out on drugs synthesized in-house and therefore of known history. In this study, 18 MDMA samples were synthesized in-house from aliquots of the same precursor by three common reductive amination routes and analyzed for __13__C, __15__N, and __2__H isotope abundance using IRMS. For these three preparative methods, results indicate that __2__H isotope abundance data is necessary for discrimination by synthetic route. Furthermore, hierarchical cluster analysis using __2__H data on its own or combined with __13__C and/or __15__N provides a statistical means for accurate discrimination by synthetic route_.?

What does this mean exactly? I get they tested three different synthetic routes, all using the same precursor, and by labelling the H, C, and Ns they can determine which route was used.  I know law enforcement looks hard at what precursors are used, but why are they following synthetic routes?  Would different isotopes be detected on a purity test of MDMA?  Would it affect the quality of it?  And if one drug has more Hs on it (they said they could identify synthetic route by Hs alone, would that show up on a test?  Basically, how does this study relate to the end product of MDMA and possibly alter the effects of MDMA produced by different synthetic routes?


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## Beenhead

If the MDMA molecule were changed at all (say the addition of a methyl group )it would no longer be MDMA, would be completely obvious in Mass Spec, would also most likely yield a different color in the colorimetric tests.

Using a different starting product in the synthesis really only does one thing. It gives different contaminants. THere will be different side products and left over starting material. You may see a difference in the stereochemistry, but most reactions yield racemic products, and in order to have a stereoselective reaction you need some catalyst or chiral reactants. 

The paper is looking at isotope ratios to trace the synthetic route of the creation of MDMA from a single precursor
Basically there is a pretty constant ratio of 13C/14C/C12 , and the same as Nitrogen and Hydrogen isotopes.

Lets use a random organic molecule with mass 134. You do not see one single peak at 134, you see what is called an isotope cluster, that means switching 1 carbon12 to carbon13. This makes a 135 peak. And then you get to switch 2 carbons and so fourth. 

Since Carbon 12 only is the most common, Mass 134 peak is much larger than the Mass 135 peak. 

What they are looking at is the ratio of the height between the peaks with the different isotopes (carbon12/carbon13 and hydrogen2/hydrogen)

What they are hoping is that they can identify batches of MDMA and therefore trace where it came from by pyrollizing the ionized sample and looking at the isotope ratios. maybe one labs precursors are so different in isotope ratios from another they will be identifiable.

THis has nothing to do with the pharmacological properties of the MDMA and is just a qualitative method of analysis. I am a Mass Spectrometrist, but I must admit I have never heard of this type of MS and may have totally destroyed its description!


----------



## Dresden

Something Is Rotten In The State Of Denmark.


----------



## scatterday

Something is off with MDMA worldwide. Not just Denmark.


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## SympatheticMD

Even though your answer couldn?t have been more clear, I am still confused.  We both agree that the study used the same precursor to compare three different "reductive amination routes", and then ultimately wanted to know if these three different routes of synthesis on the exact same same precursor produced distinguishably different products varying by isotope abundance.I thought an isotope was an element that differed by the number of neutrons it contained.  So again, I keep interpreting this to mean that one precursor using different synthetic routes can produce distinct MDMA products that differ by the ratio of isotopes they contain.  After I read this second article below, I still hold the same opinion.


_The identification of links between seizures of illicit 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA or ?ecstasy?) has been a global target of law enforcement agencies in recent years. Previous work has shown that, when the reaction conditions are carefully repeated from batch to batch, stable isotope ratios allow the discrimination of MDMA?HCl batches according to synthetic route used for manufacture. In this study, the effects of altering five reaction conditions relating to the Pt/H__2__reductive amination synthesis were, for the first time, systematically investigated using a two level, five factor factorial design. Results indicate that the δ__2__H values of MDMA?HCl are affected by the length of imine stir time, and the δ__15__N values are affected by the degree of excess methylamine employed. Furthermore, the δ__13__C and δ__18__O values have been shown to be affected by the efficiency of the reaction, despite the similarity in carbon and oxygen composition of the starting material and product molecules. In addition to being of theoretical importance in this field of analytical science overall, this work is essential in order to more fully contextualize the interpretation of IRMS data which may be used as potential forensic evidence._

I tried to see if different amounts of isotopes in could alter the way a chemical acted biologically, but Safari started to block me due to my suspicious searches on Google and Google scholar, which really pisses me off.  

I read that I can access all kinds of scientific journals on the DW ? something I have been missing terribly now that I am not associated with a university.  I tried got into the DW, but the whole thing got over my head quickly. Unfortunately, my attempt to see research articles on the DW is probably what put me on some list that is now banishing me from searching up articles on regular internet search engines.  

That seems super unfair.  

All I?m trying to do with this strange isotope investigation is to figure out how MDMA has changed in its effect over the past few years, which we know is largely due to major changes in precursor substances and creative synthesis. What is striking is that these changes don?t show up on tests that declare MDMA pure. And we have one person who stated that washing it made his product more like the product of old.  I?d bet the government looks at many more variables when evaluating the composition of MDMA on the market.  I also bet I might find this kind of info on the DW, if I can figure it out. However, I?m afraid I already blew it by Searching some DW site on Safari instead of the encrypted browser, which means someone has my ? IPL?  IRL?  Anyone, Big Brother has me and now I?m a bit scared.  I would like to officially say to Mr. Brother that I am simply a neuroscientist geek who likes the brain and pharmacology, and I have no intent to use any knowledge I procure for any illegal purposes.  Please let me back on Google Scholar journal catalogues.  I?d be lost without them.

And G-Chem, where are you???


----------



## scatterday

Safrole treaty signed in 2008 was the problem.

All roll reports since then have changed since safrole is harder to obtain and you can obtain piperanol safer and cheaper from other countries.

Isn't it strange after the main precursor was changed the roll reports started to change.

Even the ecstasy back in the day used to smell different. It might smell similar but definitely not the same.

It had a dusty or feint musky, root beer, licorise, aniseed smell. I'd recognise it anywhere and wish I had a pill stored away for analysis of it's contaminants and then consume it.

Though all we have at the moment is a wash or isomer ratios along with synthesising routes via MD-P2P via piperanol.

I'm sure we'll figure it out eventually via this thread.

The synthesis is different therefore the precursors left over in the product will alter or inhibit some neurotransmitters from being released such as serotonin and oxytocin. All we need to do is analyse is the MDMA and it's contaminants with a mass spectrometer or gc/ms test.

If everyone is claiming the product has changed it's not just a matter of "the magic is gone" it's a matter of the product has changed and most probably the synthesis.

As I was saying need to experiment with more washes and write up some comprehensive erowid roll reports.


----------



## Beenhead

Two things: if you want a paper, email the lead author or the last author. If it was published with public funds they have to give it to you.

Next isotope ratio pharmacology is out there
There are patents with Deuterium replacing hydrogens in morphine to increase the potency
But this is not the same, as these syntheses arent trying to change isomeric percentages, and while they may leave a distinct fingerprint, their variation is probably so small very little difference in effect would result.


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## SympatheticMD

I'm 100% in agreement with you scatterday.  It would be super interesting to try the stuff they are using in the MAPS trials.  i bet they do not use safrole as a precursor and I also bet that it doesn't have the same intensity that the stuff I had in the the 80s did (how would you honestly maintain in a therapy session anyway. T\he thought makes me smile.)  

Thanks for the advice about papers Beenhead.  I'm not sure that articles in Nature, etc count as publicly funded, but maybe they are... the journals are certainly making money by holding their access to giant databases held by academic institutions and the like.  Bums me out that knowledge is restricted that way.  I think I can't remember....the last author is the head of the lab, right?  And the first is the protege in the lab?  God, my memory is fading fast people.  

I do have a question for you younger people.  You guys seem to be more focused on MDMA powder than ecstasy tablets.  Is that true, or am I misreading?  If you do like the powder is that because the pills are more likely to contain all sorts of contaminants in order to make them more solid?

Lastly, is there any relevance to "brown" MDMA crystals.    Does that in any way signify that it is good or bad or what its precursor might be?  And why is the distinction of "champagne" MDMA being made?  i assume it is a marketing ploy, but what does champagne imply?


----------



## Dresden

I would kill for a safrole derived bean at the moment.  Wouldn't you?


----------



## scatterday

SympatheticMD said:


> I'm 100% in agreement with you scatterday.  It would be super interesting to try the stuff they are using in the MAPS trials.  i bet they do not use safrole as a precursor and I also bet that it doesn't have the same intensity that the stuff I had in the the 80s did (how would you honestly maintain in a therapy session anyway. T\he thought makes me smile.)
> 
> Thanks for the advice about papers Beenhead.  I'm not sure that articles in Nature, etc count as publicly funded, but maybe they are... the journals are certainly making money by holding their access to giant databases held by academic institutions and the like.  Bums me out that knowledge is restricted that way.  I think I can't remember....the last author is the head of the lab, right?  And the first is the protege in the lab?  God, my memory is fading fast people.
> 
> I do have a question for you younger people.  You guys seem to be more focused on MDMA powder than ecstasy tablets.  Is that true, or am I misreading?  If you do like the powder is that because the pills are more likely to contain all sorts of contaminants in order to make them more solid?
> 
> Lastly, is there any relevance to "brown" MDMA crystals.    Does that in any way signify that it is good or bad or what its precursor might be?  And why is the distinction of "champagne" MDMA being made?  i assume it is a marketing ploy, but what does champagne imply?



Dark MDMA shows inpurities in the synthesis of the finished product. You could solvent wash brown MDMA and it would come out crystal clear.

It's just a matter of what those impurities/by-products are. It's all a marketing ploy if you ask me. 

I remember splitting ecstasy back in the day and the MDMA inside was always crystal clear. Never seen brown crystalline MDMA in a pill before.

I've washed multiple colours of MDMA before and they've all come out crystal clear.


----------



## Beenhead

Sympathetic
Im talking about funding that was used for the study, not the journal

I have speant my fair share of tome corresponding with authors about their work and getting papers! Just email them you will get most you ask for!


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## SympatheticMD

Even if they are in Europe?   (the authors)


----------



## G_Chem

Sorry MD been super busy this past week or so..  Bout to be driving for a few days so may chime in on a break but a few things.

Indeed authors are actually fairly excited to speak of their work as in a way it's a show of recognition for their hard work that sometimes gets forgotten.

Brown MDMA can be an indication of many types of impurities, some could be beneficial for the experience depending on synthetic route but unfortunately since almost every route can produce brown mdma it's hard to make any definitive statements.  I'll say personally I've only taken brown mdma 2-3times, and purple mdma once (95% of the time I take clear/ish shards) and while I did notice a difference in effect I wouldn't say it made it any better an experience.  In fact I thought it added to the physical side effects.

I used to compare brown impure mdma I was obtaining (key phrase there, my areas brown mdma may be different than yours more than likely) to really pure mdma like this...

Brown mdma with the increased physical side effects tells you without a doubt it's there.  There is a slight increase in stimulation but mainly an increase in bodily side effects.  I.e. Nausea, cramping, muscle tenseness (especially in the back causing pain), gurning, etc..  Also the empathy and euphoria felt more forced and unnatural.  One more thing, brown mdma (and MDA) seems more visual and effects vision moreso.

Really pure mdma at lower to medium doses can sometimes go almost unnoticed physically.  The empathy and euphoria however is simply beyond explanation but the best part is how natural it feels.  Almost like your having the best day you've ever had in your life and if you didn't know you took a drug earlier that day and didn't know your pupils were the size of dinner plates you may not even expect the effects were originating from a drug.  The effects feel distinctly unlike a drug. I've had quite a few experiences that I remember felt as if the empathy and love was being "unlocked" moreso than the drug making me feel that way.  You will also notice with experiences like these, much less comedown overall.  And its effect on vision is much less pronounced and more crisp/clean, at most maybe a slight brightening of colors and lights.

It's really hard to explain the difference and don't feel that did it justice..

Again though the brown mdma I tried back in 2012 or whatever probably ain't the same as brown mdma from the early 90's.  All depends on the synthetic route.

Back later 
-GC


----------



## Beenhead

If the author is european theres no rule in their grant for access but they usually give the article in the spirit of cooperation

My experience with MDMA is purely with ecstasy pills and have not tried what I currenttly have

What I have is light chanpaigne colored and not as brown as what Ive seen in ads.

my MDA is pure white with beautiful crystals

I am thinking about getting a lifetime supply of MDMA, Incase the markets all die, and so i dont have to ever worry about getting it. I have seen white crystals from brown Dutch product that has been acetone washed and recrystallized. Was thinking of getting it.
Or just 10-14 grams ans cleaning it my self.


Scatterday: do you have a percent yield on your recrystallization protocol? It could tell me a bit about its worth


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## scatterday

My yield was  mentioned above. It was performed on a champagne to clear white crystalline mdma.

Therefore the product was the most unadulterated to MDMA begin with. I'd like to say in terms of isomer ratio's it feels very amp like.

Though the washed product brought me a therapeutic experience I can never forget.


----------



## Beenhead

I found it. You didnt weight it before and after? When you say that it was 85%, assuming that is the final product. Would this be in terms of MDMA HCL? So 85% was MDMA HCl and 15% was unknown impurity? 

If so, like I said, doing multiple recrystallizations is usually the standard, the more you do the more pure you can get. I might even have tried to do two or three total and see if you can get the purity into the 90s.


----------



## psy997

Is it worth it to do the wash with say only a few hundred milligrams of product? It's not very good, but I don't want to ruin what I do have...


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## emkee_reinvented

scatterday said:


> I was told some time back directly from an online MDMA chemist that the perfect combination for an ecstasy pill consisted of combinations of mdma, mda and amphetamine sulphate. That's where you would get your "smacky pills" MDMA heavy and the amphetamine containing "speedy" MDMA pills.
> 
> Can't recall the dosages correctly but if I can roughly guess it was 90-100mg MDMA, 25-35mg MDA and some amphetamine sulphate.



Although the recipe does look delicious. But in my experiences that date back round 90's. We have a good testing and warning system regarding pills in general. 
I dare to assert I had "smacky and speedy" pills that contained only MDMA as active ingredient. only difference the actual dosage, MDA was very very rare then.


----------



## emkee_reinvented

SympatheticMD said:


> I'm 100% in agreement with you scatterday.  It would be super interesting to try the stuff they are using in the MAPS trials.  i bet they do not use safrole as a precursor and I also bet that it doesn't have the same intensity that the stuff I had in the the 80s did (how would you honestly maintain in a therapy session anyway. T\he thought makes me smile.)


This reminds me of a few experiences with me and some others had with capsule's of MDMA that was made secretely in an official lab by an chemist. It was promoted as top knotch stuff, not even close to the commercially available pills. Which were with a few exceptions MDMA in differing dosages. 

The weird thing about this powder, testing confirmed it was MDMA. It resembled the experience of the pills but differt on a few points. 
-very gradual come up and slower waves then most pills and gradual comedown.
-way less morish. 
-more psychedelic less euphoric. 

Didn't like it though but seems like it would be the better choice for therapeutic settings.


----------



## scatterday

Beenhead said:


> I found it. You didnt weight it before and after? When you say that it was 85%, assuming that is the final product. Would this be in terms of MDMA HCL? So 85% was MDMA HCl and 15% was unknown impurity?
> 
> If so, like I said, doing multiple recrystallizations is usually the standard, the more you do the more pure you can get. I might even have tried to do two or three total and see if you can get the purity into the 90s.



It's impossible to reach above 89% purity because the rest of the compound is made up of a salt pr something from what I remember the chemist telling me.

When you hear 89% purity it means 100% purity, It was something that prevents it being washed past 89% if I recall correctly.

I did weigh and lost a percentage or two of by-products/contamination because the MDMA was as clean as you can get it.

As I was saying it was purchased as 85% purity but lost little from the wash maybe a percent or two raising the purity to 87-88 which is perfect because my recrystalization was as clear as shattered glass or clear ice which was good enough for me to consume and provide and enlightening and therapeutic dose.

*NOTE-*

*If you wash your product expect to consume less depending on the product lost from the wash due to the purity you have created.*


----------



## scatterday

emkee_reinvented said:


> Although the recipe does look delicious. But in my experiences that date back round 90's. We have a good testing and warning system regarding pills in general.
> I dare to assert I had "smacky and speedy" pills that contained only MDMA as active ingredient. only difference the actual dosage, MDA was very very rare then.



MDA may have been rare but the metabloziation of MDMA>MDA in your liver has always been a known and proven scientific fact.

Amphetamine present within the pills will be noticable because it adds duration to the experience from my understanding and also increases sexual libido which may have been responsible for my sexual desires on MDMA back in the 2000's and the inability to sleep afterwards.

Cannabis was always our ultimate comedown drug which potentiated the experience and lengthened the duration.

Inability to sleep was also another reasoning why this chemist was correct with his shared information.

If I may quote him from memory he said something similar to" This combination was popular among chemists and it would keep you up and dancing all night, Social instead of being couch locked all night."


----------



## scatterday

psy997 said:


> Is it worth it to do the wash with say only a few hundred milligrams of product? It's not very good, but I don't want to ruin what I do have...



If you can get more sure why not. Try a pre and post wash experience and you'll notice the difference. Try the washed product first then the unwashed.


----------



## Beenhead

scatterday said:


> It's impossible to reach above 89% purity because the rest of the compound is made up of a salt pr something from what I remember the chemist telling me.
> 
> When you hear 89% purity it means 100% purity, It was something that prevents it being washed past 89% if I recall correctly.
> 
> I did weigh and lost a percentage or two of by-products/contamination because the MDMA was as clean as you can get it.
> 
> As I was saying it was purchased as 85% purity but lost little from the wash maybe a percent or two raising the purity to 87-88 which is perfect because my recrystalization was as clear as shattered glass or clear ice which was good enough for me to consume and provide and enlightening and therapeutic dose.
> 
> *NOTE-*
> 
> *If you wash your product expect to consume less depending on the product lost from the wash due to the purity you have created,.*



Yeah thats what Im getting at.
You cant get above 84ish% MDMA base in MDMA HCl.
So what you probably had was around 75-80mdma base. And after your washes got it up to closer to 84%

If you are talking in mdma hcl, which is how chemists tend to notate these things, you may have been up in the 85?95% pure at the end

With the exact mass of the before and after this could be calculated a little better but not completely without the chemists numbers


----------



## emkee_reinvented

scatterday said:


> MDA may have been rare but the metabloziation of MDMA>MDA in your liver has always been a known and proven scientific fact.



I am aware of that proces, not when I was ingesting pills in the pre internet era. And taking them in numbersgoing up to the ten, in a weekend. That's when my own personal chemistry fabric starts producing  noticable ammounts of MDA. But even then no way nearing the effects of those two times my MDMA was either replaced or complemented with MDA. 

So from a harm reduction perspective I advise against in vitro formation of MDA through ingestion of MDMA. As the ammount needed is ridiculous. 



scatterday said:


> Amphetamine present within the pills will be noticable because it adds duration to the experience from my understanding and also increases sexual libido which may have been responsible for my sexual desires on MDMA back in the 2000's and the inability to sleep afterwards. Cannabis was always our ultimate comedown drug which potentiated the experience and lengthened the duration.
> 
> Inability to sleep was also another reasoning why this chemist was correct with his shared information.
> 
> If I may quote him from memory he said something similar to" This combination was popular among chemists and it would keep you up and dancing all night, Social instead of being couch locked all night."




Most, probably all, pills I have taken were free of Amphetamines that's just how it is over here. If you want speed you buy speed and take it alongside your X. And for a lot of people, including myself, MDMA perk's sexual desires and causes inabillity to sleep. 

But the recipe still seems delicious althoug a lot of peolple would rather have the Amphetamines seperate. I would. So a MDA/ MDMA combo will be fine with some 5 mg dexamphetamin pills to take as needed. Never had thatt couch lock till later on, I used to dance all night on MDMA and weed.


----------



## scatterday

emkee_reinvented said:


> Most, probably all, pills I have taken were free of Amphetamines that's just how it is over here. If you want speed you buy speed and take it alongside your X. And for a lot of people, including myself, MDMA perk's sexual desires and causes inabillity to sleep.
> 
> But the recipe still seems delicious although a lot of people would rather have the Amphetamines separate. I would. So a MDA/ MDMA combo will be fine with some 5 mg dextroamphetamine pills to take as needed. Never had that couch lock till later on, I used to dance all night on MDMA and weed.



The sleeplessness is an indication of amphetamine being present within the pill as is the minor sexual desires as a result of MDMA because it is an antagonist to your 5-HT receptors although MDMA it's self is considered a psychedelic amphetamine, 

Which hardly anyone consuming clean product has trouble sleeping on (Refer to pillreports/user reports). 

Where as dopamine which is strongly affected by amphetamines is released creating the urge for sexual desires flooding dopeamine into your synapses even more than MDMA potentially potentiating the high. Users claim IV'ing amphetamines gives them strong sexual desires and some users even report ejaculating upon consumption. I personally am against strictly IV'ing narcotics but at the end of the day I'm here for harm reduction so it's my responsibility to look after these users.

I tend to get extreme sexual desires on a clean methamphetamine high but the comedown is horrid. 

I've also noticed the after effects feel different now which is indicative of adulterants such as amphetamine and caffeine present within the pills. This is why I don't use methamphetamine but a washed product may produce different results.

Minor sexual desires are in fact a result of consuming MDMA but the sleeplessness and strong sexual desires indicates there may have been amphetamine present within the pills because when I others and myself consume clean/washed/tested MDMA I have no trouble sleeping afterwards though since the safrole treaty was signed and piperanol is the new precursor I don't get those oldschool urges anymore. Maybe something is inhibiting the release of multiple neurotransmitters and hormones which I believe meth or another adulterant is responsible for this.

Who knows after this long honestly though it's just a guessing game at this point unfortunately. But to my knowledge there must have been some form of amphetamine present within the pills as you claimed you were dancing all night and had trouble sleeping at the end of the night. When I take clean MDMA I'm a couch potato and don't have the urge to dance and can sleep like a baby all night (Then again this leads back to the quality of the product and old synthesis)

All I remember is shaking hands, Kissing and hugging friends from old school ecstasy.

Amphetamine contained within ecstasy is plausible because in fact a lot of chemists used to synthesize the MDMA and add amphetamine to it to increase the potential for physical addiction. It's cheap, Easy to synthesisze and chemists know addiction= $$

The magic is not gone folks. Lets find the solution because around 2008 when the safrole treaty was signed the MDMA feeling we all love and cherish has changed which can be found via pillreports.

Not going to argue here just trying to explain things from my side of the story.

People often wonder why MDMA has changed and a simple wash with some MDA and amphetamine may be the missing links. (Try not to overdo things and tamper with dosages, (As I say less is more)

Take a read of the feedback from one of my most enjoyable ecstasy experiences with these purple crowns and various other ecstasy tablets and take note of the comments... 90% of those comments were positive and mention inability to sleep, racing heart and the urge to dance (Speedy rushes) along with positive reagent test results for amphetamine.

Reagent tested. unadulterated MDMA alone produces no urge to get up and dance for me. This is the same for everyone I've spoken too.

 I honestly believe it's just 1 pill I need to try from the early to mid 2000's era to confirm this and send off to edata for analysis or even a local laboratory I sent a xanax off to who will be informing me of everything inside the tablet whether it be quantity of substances present within the pill, analogues, adulterants or by-products, Which is something edata cannot provide. Quantity information.

I just don't get that energetic, empathetic or euphoric anymore and isomers are not to blame. It's either synthesis/precursors or substances they were pressing them with. As I was saying methamphetamine potentiates the roll *(Not trying to endorse methamphetamine/speed usage)*

Here are some more examples of notable ecstasy back in the day and I know something isn't right with the substances present within the pills and/or the synthesis currently. Unlike how the users below a speedy/gear feeling which is indicative to the test results.

My comprehensive roll report will be uploaded with some washed MDMA and amphetamine to identify if I can obtain the old school feeling again. Could it even be slight traces of caffeine within the pills allowing us to experience what we did?

My money has it on amphetamine because the chemists knew safrole was in short supply, hard to obtain and harder to synthesise and with the treaty upcoming they had to get users hooked to methamphetamine which by analytical data was proven in Australia in 2008 on weeekends when the MDMA didn't feel the same and wasn't available. Chemists were well aware of this too.

Maybe the chemists have found a way to disguise the results or are simply not adding amphetamine anymore because the reagent test results looks different and react different to how we test pills now not to mention there has been a huge meth incline in since the treaty for safrole was established and it's cheaper to make MDMA without amphetamine so why bother? 

Amphetamine definitely potentiates the roll and gives it legs. There is documented evidence here in the reports below. Potentially some caffeine too?

There was definitely some kind of stimulant in my era of consuming MDMA other than MDMA. Whether it be MDA, Amphetamines or caffeine. I only wish more of these pills were sent off to edata for analysis.


https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=15610 (One of the strongest pills I've had to date despite the user report. Was warned they were strong from the dealer and still double dropped despite my stupidity. Ended up bringing 2 girls back to mine for a orgy. Was either the domed ones or the one in the report linked)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=12772 (The very first pill I ever took and felt noticeable effects from. Fantastic and couldn't have expected anything better.)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=12863 (One of my all time favourites, Strong sexual desires, Strong empathy and euphoria)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=15681 (Very memorable and enjoyable night) 
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=10851 (Smacky based not as great as the rest from memory.)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=13891 (Great pill and as you can see by the discussion reagent results indicate the prescience of amphetamine aka "gear" Australian slang. We just need to identify what kind of amphetamine was used whether it was meth or dexro or potentially even something else)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=14714 (Great clean pills, Potentially some MDA present in the mixture because I was getting mild hallucinations, Increased libido and energy)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=15386 (Clean with no amphetamine present just a general nice sense of well being, euphoria and empathy. Lots of D&M's with people, A little on the weak side slept fine afterwards) 
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=8172 (An interesting experience on these, Mild hallucinogenic effects though clean experience overal)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=27970 (Here's another all time favourite, These were sent off to edata for analysis.)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=30218 (A report published by my own confirming there was amphetamine present within the pills. Specifically methamphetamine as one user begins to describe his results from his reagent test. As you can see the dimensions of the other yellow handicap are different so they're most likely different batches. Ended up consuming these and had a blast.)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=13044 (Always have reagent tested my pills, Guess I got lucky with a good batch, Extremely munty and euphoric.)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=11389 (Clean pills, Very smacky indicating no amphetamine was present other than MDMA.)
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=15445 (Most notibaly one of the most speediest pills I've ever had that contained MDMA, Pure bliss and enjoyment. Despite what the report comments say)

It's a shame the chemists making these aren't around anymore because these were the best moments of my life. I made deep connections with friends, We would go for walks, Chat to strangers politely and friendly and receive polite and friendly responses back from people also on the same ecstasy. I don't get many of these psychological and physiological feelings anymore which is saddening.


Even the press looks different in texture compared to the new presses we currently see on the market. I honestly wish I had some stored away for safe keeping's as they were one of my all time favourites. Even note the user was unsure of suspected contents and rating but it sure sounds like MDMA with something else present or a different synthesis.

We'll get to the bottom of this guys and we're onto these chemists. It was most notibly the pills with amphetamine that would keep me awake for hours which induced overwhelming euphoria and empathy.


----------



## indigoaura

Scatterday, I have wondered about speed as well, but I am just not convinced that is the only answer. 

I sent a lot of pills into Pill Reports. I have taken pills that tested as MDMA and pills that were MDA. None of the pills that I sent in ever tested positive for speed or amphetamine. There were a few occasions where I felt suspicious that there may have been speed in a pill, due to the inability to sleep, but I did not send the pill in for testing. I recall one experience specifically. Regeant test looked fine, but we could not sleep for anything and there was a paranoid edge. I would not consider that experience to be one of the best rolls. 

As for sex...

When I first started rolling (2000-2002), I was with someone who was not into E-sex (or regular sex, but that is a whole other story). So, as a result, those rolls focused on other social/emotional interactions. I was more likely to roll at parties then and just talk to people. I felt sexual, but there was not an outlet. Later, from about 2002-2005, I was with someone who was into E-sex. Many of the pills that we consumed were tested and were MDMA according to Pill Reports. They were all regeant tested. We would roll and have sex all night, every time we rolled. It was ridiculous. It transformed ecstasy into something that was completely sexual, to the point that if we were at a party together and planning to hang with friends, we just couldn't, and would have to find some privacy. 

The only point that it stopped having that intense sexual vibe was when my supplier quit. The sleepy product I have had access to since then has never been on the same sexual level. But I don't think all the good, sexual pills we took were laced with speed, and pill reports said they were MDMA. 

I have tried MDMA/MDA combos since then. Not the same.
I have tried adding caffeine. Not the same.
I have tried adding 24 hour energy. Not the same (but better).

To shed additional light, I will definitely be attempting to purify/crystallize this sleepy stuff, and we will see what happens.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> We would roll and have sex all night, every time we rolled. It was ridiculous. It transformed ecstasy into something that was completely sexual, to the point that if we were at a party together and planning to hang with friends, we just couldn't, and would have to find some privacy.


Amazing. I thought that MDMA inhibits erections.


----------



## G_Chem

So sorry I've been away guys, I've been trying to reply so much but with the distractions present it was near impossible..  So much that needs saying but I'm still in recovery mode after all I been up to.

First of all, guys regarding the 84% thing (or any percentage that is around there people often quote) I thought we had nipped that in the bud a long time ago but I'll say it again..

There's no such thing as a max of 84% pure for mdma HCl, max is 99.9999 (and so on..) % just like every other substance.  Where people picked this up was a few folks with little chemistry knowledge tried to understand a concept beyond their pay grade..

Essentially when mdma is in its freebase form it is a caustic oil that cannot be consumed easily.  MDMA HCl in essence is this freebase mdma attached with an HCl (84% or whatever it is being the mdma and the rest being the HCl).  That number varies based on the molecular weight of the acid used to salt the mdma, some acids being heavier.  This concept does not indicate in any way that mdma can only max out at 84% and anything beyond that will be an oily substance, that's not how it works.

MDMA HCl is a different substance altogether from mdma freebase, the HCl to the mdma is a molecular bond not an impurity.  This isn't the best analogy but think of it like this..  You wouldn't consider salt to only have a maximum of 50% pure sodium.

Now the reason for further confusion comes from some (not all..) labs which use the freebase for their calculations because they don't know the exact salt due to the way they analyze.

And to further grow the myth, Dutch online vendors use the number to sell sub standard purity product since everyone thinks the max is 84 anyways.

Please guys just drop the whole 84-87% thing as it doesn't affect us ever really.  MDMA HCl can and does reach 99.9% pure.

-----------------------------------------

On to the possible lasting stimulation being related to MDA or amphetamines.  I agree with indigo in that I think most good pills back then were mainly mdma sometimes with a little caffeine.  I think the lasting stimulation comes from certain good batches of mdma and also the way it is dosed.

I notice much more stimulation if I redose later on in the experience over earlier.  A single dose typically has a much sharper cleaner drop off at the end compared to redoses.  Also I think batches with a higher R isomer ratio could be the cause for that longer lasting experience.  Or we're looking at an impurity causing it similar to the early 90's mdma.

One more thing is I notice as I get older that stimulation seems less present after the drug has worn off.  I would think it's just a difference in mdma but it happens with LSD too now.  Whereas back in the day these drugs would keep me up for many hours even when they were dwindling in effect, now I can sometimes fall asleep before everything has fully worn off. It doesn't happen every time but I write that off to getting old.

With that said it sounds like for many of you guys the change in product feels to be the culprit over the whole "getting older" thing for this lack of energy.

Also MDMA has always made me sensual over sexual and while it can sometimes be difficult getting an erection it's not impossible.  I love having sex on mdma but I think I still love dancing or conversing on it more.  Each to their own I suppose.  I personally like casual fooling around on mdma intermixed with conversation, I like to have my dick sucked while trying to tell you about my childhood lol, na not quite.. but you get it.  Probably because it's easy to get distracted on mdma..

-GC


----------



## scatterday

A chemist online once told me it was impossible to achieve above 89% purirty as a result of a salt that's being used now and you cannot wash the salt out with a solvent wash.

Theoretically 89%=100% pure but i'll have a look into this matter via synthesis routes.

Would love to start sending off some mdma samples locally but it costs a fortune.

220 per test and they're able to publish/identify everything edata cannot via gc/ms.

Already sent my first xanax to see if it's alprazolam or something else.

7-10 day result turnover with full printout copy for your own convenience and assurance.

Asked if they accept paypal as a form of payment and they said yes so if anything goes wrong I get my money back.

It's a well known laboratory within Australia.

The only one i could find with quanitity and comprehensive testing and allowing the customer to see everything.

It was my last option before edata.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Interesting! Let us know how it goes with that lab, its expensive but not horribly so in comparison to places like EData.

Also that chemist was wrong.. MDMA HCl (the most common salt form out there) can indeed be "washed" or better said "purified" to above 89% pure.  Again it goes back to what I said before, people's misunderstanding of chemistry concepts.

Indeed you cannot "wash off" the molecular bond between the mdma freebase and HCl but again MDMA HCl is a completely different substance altogether and not to be looked at like "mdma with an impurity."  MDMA HCl and MDMA Freebase are two different substances with different properties, both can achieve 99.9+% purity.

The fact this "chemist" talked about purifying the final end product via washes shows they know little.  If I was an mdma chemist (and I'm not..) I'd do an A/B with the necessary washes along the way then finish off with a fractional distillation of the freebase.   (Triple distilled like my favorite whiskey.) I'd then salt it out via HCl gas, and re-X in isopropyl.  Then I'd take that and do a slow re-X from dH2O over a few week period.  (All reagents used after the distill MUST be ACS grade.)  That's how you get 99.99% pure MDMA HCl with crystals as large as can possibly be obtained.

-GC


----------



## scatterday

Maybe the purifcations/solvent washes is what made my experience that of an experience that resembles early 2000's.

Would have loved to experiment with some solvent washed mda and amphetamine on the night to see if that was the key.

If that is the case and you're correct we may finally be unlocking the final key of this long mystery.

I was missinformed now and I believe I understand.

In terms of neurochemistry and nehrotransmitters I know just about anything.

Embarassing at the least I listened to this chemist online and proves what kind of people are producing our product on the street.

This dutch mongy mdma is better than none I just want my old mdma back and i'll get it with some washes and meth.

Most probably order some piracetam and 5-htp to prevent neurotoxic damage and increase the roll potential.

Start out with a dose of 110mg mdma or even less with some meth and write that comprehensive errowid report.


----------



## Beenhead

G you are right to an extent. The fact that there is a salt does affect the dose. 

Any drug when given in the HBr or the HCl salt will need more of the HBr salt version to get the same effect as the HCl due to Bromines molecular weight, the easiest example I can give here is 2CB dosages 

The MDMA is not covalently (molecularly) bound to the HCl , but rather its an ionic bond in a crystal lattice. That is probably not what you meant though and Im over complicating it here for this discussion.

The notion when used by dutch MDMA vendors online is marketing and dumb. I dont care who you are, you probably arent synthing any pharmaceutical close to 99% purity without prep scale chromatography involved.


----------



## scatterday

So after some further research on the topic of the purity discussion I have come up with some results.

The molar mass of MDMA is 193.
The molar mass of MDMA.HCl is 229.
100X(193/229) = 84%

Which is probably where the 84% myth comes from.


----------



## indigoaura

Glubrahnum, I always heard that too. But, that was not the case in this scenario. It delayed orgasms, but it did not prevent erections.


----------



## G_Chem

@Beenhead- Indeed you are right but while the HBr may be the heavier acid/salt, you can still achieve 99.9% pure MDMA HBr just like you can achieve 99.9% pure MDMA HCl.

It's not about varied dosage between different salts so much as I'm arguing you can have higher than 80'something pure MDMA HCl.  

It's good to note though that each salt form does have different dosage.  This is why Glubra told his friends to up the dosage of their mdma because they had the tartrate which has a higher molecular weight than the HCl.  Different salts can have different effects, durations, etc, as well.

@scatterday, that's exactly where the myth came from.

-GC


----------



## SympatheticMD

I love coming back after some time off to see how far this discussion goes.  I particularly like the specific descriptions people provide of their experiences because I think they really do contribute valuable information. This is a pretty sophisticated crowd, so we are clearly allowing for individual variation affecting the experience – environment, genetics, age, drug use history, etc.  Nonetheless, I think the stories are super helpful.

I’m one of the few geezers lucky enough to experience the stuff that started it all back in the early 80s. I’m still in agreement with scatterday that safrole is a very key factor in what made that product so distinct and so good.  Yet I’m also willing to bet that a second important ingredient was inside those old pills, some factor X that was either a deliberate component or a fortunate by-product that made the pill so good.

Back when the “Dallas group” was dominating the market in Texas (and getting their supply from San Francisco), they started selling “designer drugs” once X was declared illegal, and they called it Adam.  We were told it was chemically similar to X but not actually X.  Indigo suggested that Adam was either MDA or ?MDAE?....?MDEA?

This means that in 1989, they were already selling things that were likely combinations and of MDMA and MDA, or other chemically-similar substances.  And I can tell you that those drugs were very good.  I would wager a small amount of money that the stuff back then was not at all this “pure” MDMA in the way you guys have been discussing more in the last few posts.  And yet the pill produced an effect that was dominated by empathy, sensuality, and a relaxed energy – very different from a dopaminergic energy.  You felt like you could fly, or swim and breath underwater. But you didn’t want to clean the house or write a paper.  (Yet there *was*an enormous amount of teeth clenching, now that I think about it)  Also worth noting, is that feeling sleepy or yawning was never an issue. 

All I’m suggesting is that the stuff sold from the mid 80s to at least the mid 90s had its fair share of MDA or some factor X that potentiated the effect of pure MDMA.  (or the chemists who made it were doing some step that affected the isomeric ratio). 

The MDMA from this period was NOT particularly a dancing drug.  It was a rub on your neighbor, lick them, brush their hair, ask them if what you were doing felt good and how you could make them feel better.  If someone left the room or started to come down, it was the saddest thing in the world.   You guys were talking about having sex on MDMA.  There is no way I could have had sex on this stuff.  I probably tried, but the sexual response, particularly in males, involves a very complicated coordination between the sympathetic and the parasympathetic systems that it would seem almost impossible achieve if you were taking MDMA alone without some other drug perking you up (at least in the period 1985-1994).  I remember laying in a bathtub and rubbing on my boyfriend, and I got so lost in the fantastic feeling that I slipped under the water and didn’t notice.  He had to basically save me from what would have been a very peaceful drowning.  

I moved to LA in 1994, which would have affected the supply I was getting.  I also just got older and gained a tolerance that allowed me to take X and go to a club and want to dance.  In my experience, from 1994-2000, the MDMA turned a little more “uppity”. I still would not describe it as an amphetamine (or dopaminergic) UP effect.  But the desire to dance and even the ability to talk to someone without licking them or stroking their hair increased.  Yet even then, there was still that intense “come on” effect, where you were completely overwhelmed for a little bit before the wonderfulness set in. You guys seem to know a lot about the pill data – was there any change in what was found in them in the late 90s? Or what things were being used as the precursor chemicals?  

Sadly, I would be a great person to contribute to how the experience of MDMA changed after 2008. But I stopped doing if from 2000-2012 or so.  And all I can say, is that when I tried it again in 2012, it just wasn’t the same animal. I also had never done it in crystal form until 2012.    

The person who started this entire chain, the lovely and incomparable Le Junk, could answer some of these questions.  He said that he has access to product that is made in exactly the same way it was in 1985. Wouldn’t it be great to see what that actually is?  And even better, how it was made?

G-Chem:  you posted a few studies comparing the R vs S effects on animal behavior.  And you also started discussing aging and tolerance.

I read one cool study that indicated MDMA made of purely R isomer could create a tolerance in rats who were later given MDMA of the S isomer or the racemic mixture.  Only the R isomer could create a tolerance like this. In other words, in the name of fun, one could hypothesize that I was introduced to R-pure MDMA in my high school and teenage years, and this is the reason that I have such tolerance and a change of experience when I take racemic MDMA.  

I don’t think that is the case, but it’s interesting to think about.  

Lastly, I had the privilege to smell safrole-derived MDMA.  It was brown, which I think is likely irrelevant.  I would say it smells like Drakkar Noir.  Sadly, I didn’t get to try it.  Maybe I should beg in the name of science to see if it supports anything about my hypotheses.  I still think that even safrole-made MDMA of today would be different than 20 years ago. And I sure would like to find out.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Indeed there were changes then.  It seems from a few sources that around mid 90's, they went from safrole to PMK.  And a few years later they started to faze out the leuckart reaction in favor of al/hg reduction.  There's even an article from Mixmag in the 90's that a great OG member of bluelight called "phase dancer" posted about in 2000.  They say something along the lines of the change from safrole to PMK lost the rush or intensity of the old stuff, I'll have to look that up again.

I think the change from leuckart to al/hg had more effect on the different experiences though.  My goal is hopefully one day to find a way to try leuckart mdma but that is likely never to happen  I think if there was any reason for difference during your time MD that'd be it.

Also what you describe does sound spot on everything I've noticed with MDA too, and Adam is slang for MDA.  It definitely is not a dance drug 80% of the time, i prefer at home cuddling and soaking it all in.  Ive had moments on MDA where all I can do is look at someone with wide eyes and soak it all in.  To be honest I've been much more lovey and empathogenic while on MDA but unless MDMA is mixed in too the comedown is brutal.

Theres reason for me to believe MDA could be the culprit but there's many reasons it couldn't be either..  After trying so many different and unique batches of MDMA I firmly believe it can vary a lot as a drug.  I think back then it was MDMA.

I should also note my comments on sleepiness pertain to after the drug has pretty much worn off.  During the experience it should be fairly energizing no matter your age, but as I've gotten older soon as it wears off I'm more likely to wanna pass out than stay up and continue the party.  Come to think of it though I'm just older and more tired in general, back then I had no job and no worries, now I'm trying to run a business.. Fuck gettin old sucks 

Give the safrole smelling mdma a try, it may not be great but you could be pleasantly surprised..


Also!! Could you link or ref that study? I've never seen that one I don't think.  That sounds very interesting though, and could give us further clues.

One more thing.. I've got some MDMA from about 5yrs ago that produced in not only me but a few others "one of the best experience of their lives."  I can count maybe 3 rolls that were those next level experiences, that remind you why life is so precious.  (Not your average roll, typically most people only get one of these if they do at all.  Beyond what is described even throughout this thread.  Beyond description period.) This stuff gave me one of those 3 (the other two being my first time trying mdma and my first time trying 5-mapb).  I'm thinking about dosing what I've got left once or twice this summer for kicks n giggles to see if it's still as magical.  It's weird though it's taken on a chalky look when before it was clear crystal with a faint safrole smell..

-GC


----------



## SympatheticMD

Obviously, I don't know the technical details about the two types of synthesis, but I agree with you because we hit at the same thing - something about how it was synthesized changed what the components were at the end.

I was just trying to point out that MDA was absolutely floating around back then, and the more I read this stuff and reflect back on the stuff I did back then - the story reflects the story now.  There were differences in how it felt, and a lot of it came back to where I got it.  Nonetheless, it was all just so so different than what I've had recently.  I'm sure there are competent people making really good stuff, but my assumption is that finding that is a local/regional thing, which is all a bit out of my reach.  The guy who showed me the "safrole" MDMA will never let me have any.  It was made locally, and is somehow tied to a trippy/hippy band which gives it some credit in my book.  The guy also wanted me to look at something about the crystaline structure within the rock, but I didn't bother.  I just wanted to smell it.

What do you think of the Drakkar Noir smell?  Do you even know what that is?  I'm not sure my friend agreed with what I was smelling, but he mostly wanted to get it out of my hand and back stored away.

I'm assuming you want a link to the rat study about the tolerance and the R isomer?  I'll look - and I may have screwed up my summary of it.  I'm afraid this will cut me off so I'll post the link in a second.


----------



## SympatheticMD

Ok, here it is.  As usual, I can't access the entire article.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1369-1600.2009.00187.x


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## G_Chem

My system is being dumb and it ain't popping up right but I'll check it out later.

And I definitely agree MDA highly resembles what is described at times.  MDA also was popular and apparently easier to synthesize.  Nowadays certain markets (mainly parts of Europe) don't have hardly any MDA at all cuz of the synthetic routes most popular for the area.  Clandestine drug labs tend to synthesize multiple drugs only if the synthesis is easily changed to produce the different drug.  Certain synthesis are easy to change up than others in a nutshell.  This is also why the leuckart reaction was so popular once mdma was made illegal because it was the main route for speed chemists and they only had to obtain a few different precursors.  Once you get familiar with a route you tend to stick with it unless a new route shows obvious superiority.

Al/hg reduction showed that superiority (or so people thought) with increased more reliable yields with more "pure" end product.

For you MD I believe the two impurities "n-formyl-mdma and DMMDA" which were found in leuckart synthesized mdma of your time will be the keys to unlocking your question.  Unfortunately little is known about either of these substances, what little I could find was of closely analogous substances and then extrapolated best I could..  Both appear to be active, that's about all I know..

And I ain't never smelt no drakkar noir..  Sounds fancy lol.  I haven't been privelaged to the finer things in life, hence my name (short for ghetto_chem from my other online personas).  I'm the kinda guy that walks around in clothes that are about to fall off, I barely graduated high school with a .9gpa and learned everything I know from books I find at thrift stores, online articles, forums, you name it..  (Edit: I see it's perfume of some sort. Knew it was something sophisticated haha.)

-GC


----------



## SympatheticMD

I'm super excited to look into those two substances, although anything with "formyl" included in it sounds like a bummer.  Did you ever glance at that super weird manifesto I posted a link for you to access, where the guy lists all the different places that MDMA can act in the brain = all the way from receptor sites, to calcium channels, to G-protein coupled receptors and intracellular stuff.  I'm sure that most be true for most psychoactive substances, but it impressed me.

Drakkar Noir is far from fancy.  It is what the eighth grade boys poured on themselves as cologne in the early 80s, and it will therefore always be a strong trigger for nostalgic emotions in older women.  You could wear it and go on a Cougar hunt in your oversized clothing.


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## scatterday

G_Chem said:


> hence my name (short for ghetto_chem from my other online personas).  I'm the kinda guy that walks around in clothes that are about to fall off, I barely graduated high school with a .9gpa and learned everything I know from books I find at thrift stores, online articles, forums, you name it..  (Edit: I see it's perfume of some sort. Knew it was something sophisticated haha.)
> 
> -GC



My life story right here summarised in a sentence.



SympatheticMD said:


> I'm super excited to look into those two substances, although anything with "formyl" included in it sounds like a bummer.  Did you ever glance at that super weird manifesto I posted a link for you to access, where the guy lists all the different places that MDMA can act in the brain = all the way from receptor sites, to calcium channels, to G-protein coupled receptors and intracellular stuff.  I'm sure that most be true for most psychoactive substances, but it impressed me.
> 
> Drakkar Noir is far from fancy.  It is what the eighth grade boys poured on themselves as cologne in the early 80s, and it will therefore always be a strong trigger for nostalgic emotions in older women.  You could wear it and go on a Cougar hunt in your oversized clothing.



Could you please link it again? May have missed that one.


----------



## scatterday

Another thing I'd like to note is the dutch mdma feels super mongy/drowsy and sedative. I don't feel very clear headed until a wash has been performed, The product I used to consume was uplifting and enlightening, I'd be happy to converse with any stranger, hug/kiss them and dance for hours. Along with that feeling of everything sounding great, Smoking a cigarette, Sitting on a couch.

Though the bruxism, nystagmus and mydriasis were dead give away's. Because my eyes are hazel/brown the pupil literally fills up the entire iris appearing there is nothing left.


----------



## G_Chem

Na I must have missed that..  I'll look back and try to find it.  Indeed that formyl sounds menacing but we must remember that substances can have seemingly dangerous substitutions like 4-FA which is fluorinated amphetamine.  Everything in my heart, body and soul tell me a fluorinated compound should be toxic especially with 4-CA being a serotonin neurotoxin; but all the research on it since it's been available doesn't seem to indicate as much.

I saw one research paper that studied the pharmacology of mdma impurities and they found two that were indeed fairly active (both from leuckart.)  One of the substances was an off analog of mdma, the other was its "formyl" brother.  They did not test the substances I mentioned above, but from this I can extrapolate that indeed n-formyl-mdma is active as well.

Then some may ask "well how much formyl-mdma is even present?"  Again we don't know exactly for mdma but research was done on PMA from the same leuckart synthesis and they found around 20% formyl-PMA.  Note the leuckart seems to work better for primary amines over secondary amines, meaning this reaction works better for MDA than MDMA.  If the primary amine PMA (which should react better and more cleanly than a secondary amine) has that much formyl-PMA as an impurity, we can only surmise that mdma from the leuckart contained significant amounts of its n-formyl analog.

As for DMMDA, my guess is it may be somewhat similar to MDA.  Not sure how active it is but definitely not inactive.

Depends on how you grew up I suppose.. And I wear raggedy clothes not oversized  also I may be getting a bit old for cougars but doesn't hurt to dream.

-GC


----------



## scatterday

G_Chem said:


> Also I may be getting a bit old for cougars but doesn't hurt to dream.
> 
> -GC



If we crack this mystery you might think otherwise. MDMA has always lowered my inhibitions for attractiveness in others of the opposite gender/age. I remember hooking up with a 38 year old back in my younger adolescent days. Consensual and above age of course and the experience was unlike any other. Hooked up with many older women whilst on MDMA those same days and it was unforgettable. The emotions, empathy and love towards them was incredible 

Another private story, *NSFW*- I remember being at a house party on either the red or blue doves circulating pre 2008 and going into a bedroom and receiving/giving plenty of foreplay from this gorgeous English girl who moved from the UK to Aus a little after this consumption of our ecstasy prior to this incident that took place, Our arousal for each other was incredible and extremely sensual/sexual. Lots of foreplay, hugging and kissing. We didn't care at the time who walked in and just couldn't manage to contain ourselves. It was just something we knew had to be done and it was one of the most memorable times to date.

Apologies for derailing the thread it was just a very memorable moment for us. Unfortunately don't speak to this english woman anymore though we have seen eachother

I have plenty of stories but this isn't the time and place

In terms of dress code I've always been into expensive denim jeans (Nobody ect). As for music hard dance music (Oldschool hardstyle, trance/hard trance, psytrance, D&B and a dabble of electro among the popular 2000's era hits, Reardless of that in terms of dress code it would be a pair of jeans and a hard dance music themes hoodie. AKA Hard Kandy, PHD)

There's something about the English accent that pleases/arouses me with females.

Anyways back on to topic


----------



## scatterday

Dracarys said:


> I once spoke to a 'manufacturer'. He told me that adding all kinds of stuff (mostly caffeïne and amfetamine-like stimulants) is sort of standard practice these days, and that from a commercial perspective it would actually not make sense, not to add something like caffeïne, wich is cheap, legal and unmonitored. But even a substance like caffeïne adds to side-effects like dehydration.
> When MDMA and MDEA where still legal, the opposite was true, and it wouldn't have made sense, economically to sell impure stuff, because it would have been inferior to all the other _legal _stuff out there.
> 
> In the nineties there was an abundance of legal MDEA, and most of the MDMA people bought was actually MDEA. But pure MDEA is almost as good as MDMA. A little more speedy though.



I'd like to add this as further credibility to my amphetamine statement. have decided upon sending washed and unwashed mdma to the gc/ms laboratory even though it's going to cost me a small fortune, The same one I sent a xanax off to and see if they have access to the equipment to identity isomer ratios.


----------



## SympatheticMD

I can barely even read (fuck I can't spell ya'll anymore).  What is going on with me.  I made the terrible mistake of becoming obsessed, and I stayed up all night finally giving into my curiosity about the DW.  

And I'm just too fucking old.  That is some hard stuff to get man.  I was right there, I had my IpnVanisher thing that makes it look like I'm in Montana or whatever, and I understand that eventually I need to get Tails and Linux and turn completely Snowden.  

But I just don't understand IP addresses, and I think I made some super rookie mistakes.  And I'll never understand whatever the step is...God I can't even say it... some coding/encrypting shit that takes these long strings of data.. But I don't really know where or when to put them.  

As a result, I could find any of the super fun stuff - like a dark web link with the New York Times.  Or the New Yorker.  Either way...I was in.  And even though I'd never understand it, I found some group that appears to be doing insider trading over the DW.  I'm so totally naive. I never even thought of that.   It illustrates super clearly, however, that a drug dealer and an investment banker dealing with insider trading are the more similar than the banker would care to admit.  I'm kind of hoping that those guys (I've met my fare share of banker guys) are just as dumb as I am about internet technology.    

I found a few discussions that addressed what we've been talking about on this site, but the contributors didn't know very much.  Not a high school dropout chemist in site.  (I know you graduated G_Chem).  

The only site I managed to fully penetrate seemed to be a group of entitled old men, who were so secretive you couldn't have a conversation.  And they were all about money exchange.  They kept dividing the internet users into ... Blackhats, ...and two other corny things.  It was all way too boring UNTIL...

I did found a doctor who was going to use the internet to sell organs on the black market.  That was a pretty strange thing to bump into amidst all these old geezers insisting that we as participants had to prove our value to the group before they would have a legitimate conversation with us about what DW resources were useful, safe, and relevant.  So Mr Wierdo MD decided his contribution to the guys was to harvest organs and sell them to the highest bidder. Seriously, I just read that.  

Now that I have rambled, I'd like to say that I'm super excited scatterday that you are going to sacrifice your hard earned money for the sake of knowledge.  I'm pretty excited about it.  I'm dying to hear what you find out.   

Here is the link to the article you want:https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...0.2009.00187.x   I am a tad worried about that address.  the x seems kind of abrupt


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## G_Chem

^^^100% agree, scatterday your investment into this is well respected.  My hat is off to you sir.

@MD- If it makes you feel better I can't understand the DW either..  Well I do but I don't feel I grasp it enough to safely buy stuff off there.  That's crazy though!! I think your onto something too MD.  We should really start to scour the DW for information we can't find on the clear web.  I haven't looked yet but my guess is there is a Hive 2.0 esque site which we can talk with the guys actually producing our product.

MD, how many times have you tried MDMA post 2012 when you got back in? Where are you located roughly in the US? Also you mentioned the Dallas group, is that the product you obtained mostly in the late 80's/early 90's? If you don't mind I'd like to give myself a general profile/idea of your past use.

@scatterday- Haha we sound rather similar...  Oh yea I definitely won't turn a beautiful older gal down, but I'm about 30 myself.. Still on that border of young looking but I might not be the cougar bait I once was lol.

I can relate to that story scatter.  I've definitely had moments on mdma/MDA where I couldn't contain myself...  A few come to mind where I was doing some pretty naughty stuff while in the same room as others, great times haha.

Generally though I prefer to "care for" others as opposed to getting sexual.  So many drugs get me horny but very few give me empathy like mdma, so I try to utilize it for that purpose.

Please keep us updated, I'm very curious on these lab results.  You should PM me a link as I may be interested as well once I've got money to spend.  Really surprised it's in Aus of all places.. Their laws make U.K. look like summer camp.

-GC


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## G_Chem

Just read that link MD, great job..  Never seen that one before.

First it should be noted that according to them, S-MDMA and racemic (R/S) produce behavioral sensitization whereas R-MDMA did not.  This is interesting and means subsequent dosings produced a stronger effect.  This goes against most people's idea that a tolerance occurs over time (aka loss of magic.)

As we know loss of magic signifies a loss of the empathy and love associated with mdma.  Well unfortunately it's impossible to know how lovey a rat is feeling so they make these assessments based solely on locomotor activity.  This now makes more sense as loss of magic is accompanied by an increased "stimulation" that isn't exactly regarded as pleasant.

So from that research I believe the study indicates that S-mdma and racemic actually cause loss of magic while r-mdma does not.  Since we have nothing but locomotor activity to go on, we can never really truly know but based on all the other anecdotal information out there I think that theory is likely correct.

Another interesting thing is that R-MDMA was not inducing hyperactivity, and repeated administration actually decreased locomotor activity..  This could indicate a few things.  It could indicate that it might be the cause of "mongy crap mdma."  It could indicate a lack of addictive potential.  Its hard to know for sure.

I still don't think R-MDMA is the culprit especially based on Glubras findings.  I believe what we see in that study is showing us that R-MDMA may be the reason why mdma can last longer and be overall less compulsive for redosing.  S-MDMA seems to be more compulsive as well as a higher chance for addictive potential.

What's most interesting is that when dosed together (racemic) R-MDMA actually increased hyperactivity while making the S-MDMAinduced behavioral sensitization "state dependent."  Not sure what that means but I surmise that the R-MDMA reduces the changes in the brain which lead to compulsive redosing and potentially magic loss.

Strangely enough R-MDMA does sensitize to racemic mdma though.  Not sure why that is..

Overall a very interesting research article that gives us a better idea of the two isomers.  Still not sure what to think but my take away is that R-MDMA at the very least potentiates the S isomer while simultaneously reducing behavioral sensitization.  It seems this behavioral sensitization is based solely on locomotor activity and as we know loss of magic is associated with an increased "stimulation."  I theorize R-MDMA actually attenuates the loss of magic, and also attenuates the compulsion to redose or use too frequently.

This correlates somewhat with the changes we see of "today's" mdma.  I often here people claim mdma is shorter acting these days, and many people redose a few times in a night.  (Not normal in my book, the peak shouldn't be 90mins long, it should be 3-6hrs.  And I rarely feel the need to redose.). Both of these would point towards S-MDMA.  It also seems as many people "lose the magic" much quicker than they did years back, this would also point towards S isomer.  The fact Glubras friends thoroughly enjoyed their R-MDMA heavy batch also seems to indicate it could be S-MDMA causing the problems.  That is... If it's an isomer issue at all..

-GC


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## SympatheticMD

I'm typing on this site instead of getting ready to fight a traffic ticket.  But this is more fun.

A.  Scatterday, you and I are reading these papers exactly opposite.  I will admit that when I have looked over the paper I posted, I in no way was fully engaged, sober, or reading slowly.  But my take was that the R isomer when introduced alone caused desensensitivity to either S or racemic product down the road.  I will absolutely admit that its likely I reversed it.

However, I think we agree that the S-isomer is more "up" because the rats ass temperature increases and they sniff ass more and move around,l while the R rats are more chill.  I don't think that says too much about what WE feel, but I do know I'd rather be chill than run around smelling ass and feeling hot.  

I also don't expect the wash to produce an isolate of one isomer of the other.  Id bet the tiny differences we might feel (and I bet it is more subtle than that) would be due to the ratios in the pills.  But nobody has showed me a paper yet that really nailed how the R isomer is responsible for love that lasts for decades.  I'm really, I still have that orange juice lid and Charlie's sweater.  

There IS a sight I think I can access on the DW called DW avengers or something.  one of the geezers on the sight I joined told the other guy who is a doctor (harvesting organs) that he should join up with that group because they get heavy into the pharmacology of the drugs in addition to the testing.  

I have a feeling, based on the personalities I've seen so far, that I will be underwhelmed.  BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.

I'm going to ask my police officer friend if I need to worry about the fact that I'm going so deep into all the web stuff in addition to the discussions we have here.  It looks super bad on paper.  Not many people fit the geek/thrill-seeking type often.  So remind me that I need to look into that.

And someone that can access papers better than I can figure out if anyone thinks the R isomer causes empathy in people.

gotta go


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## SympatheticMD

Oh shit - you asked me about the dallas group and something else.  

So yes, 1984-2000 I had varying sources.  The earlier sources were likely supplied by the Dallas crew, but eventually that shifted over to production in Mexico.  The best stuff I ever had was in 1989 in San Diego, and I'd bet that came from San Francisco.  Who knows where the LA stuff came from.  That was 1994-1999 or so.  Some of it was more up - actually all of it was.  WE went out.  We danced at gay bars.  But we rubbed on each other too.  And there was still a strong period where it hit you at first, but it was never as intense as earlier than 1994.

Hmmm... Then I didn't really do it until I came back to Texas.  I have no idea where it comes from  All of a sudden they called it molly and carried it in these little cocaine baggies and acted like I needed to be super cautious not to take to much.  IT was bitter as hell - a lot of people gagged and puked - but I could lick that stuff all over my teeth and get right back at it.  There was dancing and drinking, and I frequently didn't care where my crew was.  And all of the crushes were gone, gone, gone.  Not even with my damn boyfriend.  The focus switched to LED hula hoops and glow sticks.  

Anyway, now I really do need to leave.


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## scatterday

G_Chem said:


> ^^^100% agree, scatterday your investment into this is well respected.  My hat is off to you sir.
> 
> @scatterday- Haha we sound rather similar...  Oh yea I definitely won't turn a beautiful older gal down, but I'm about 30 myself.. Still on that border of young looking but I might not be the cougar bait I once was lol.
> 
> I can relate to that story scatter.  I've definitely had moments on mdma/MDA where I couldn't contain myself...  A few come to mind where I was doing some pretty naughty stuff while in the same room as others, great times haha.
> 
> Generally though I prefer to "care for" others as opposed to getting sexual.  So many drugs get me horny but very few give me empathy like mdma, so I try to utilize it for that purpose.
> 
> Please keep us updated, I'm very curious on these lab results.  You should PM me a link as I may be interested as well once I've got money to spend.  Really surprised it's in Aus of all places.. Their laws make U.K. look like summer camp.
> 
> -GC



Likewise and thanking you for the compliments,

I suspect we're very much so alike too and would have a good time meeting eachother with some interesting conversation.

Will keep gc/ms results posted and try to identify if they have the device which can identify isomer ratios.

I'll most probably get around to an erowid report and wash with some amphetamine experimentation carefully. Of course all product will be strictly reagent tested and sent off for gc/ms analysis and if we get lucky we can find the device to isolate isomer ratios.

Results for the xanax should be here sometime this week. My poor wallet is going to hurt after this but who cares because it's achieving answers and providing harm reduction with a comprehensive user experience on erowid.

Need that piracetam to potentate the roll and 5-htp to pre and post load not too close to the dose though otherwise it'll kill the roll.


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## Le Junk

scatterday said:


> I'd like to add this as further credibility to my amphetamine statement. have decided upon sending washed and unwashed mdma to the gc/ms laboratory even though it's going to cost me a small fortune, The same one I sent a xanax off to and see if they have access to the equipment to identity isomer ratios.



Sorry, I've been away on vacation and missed a large portion of this discussion.  Super excited to hear you sent washed and unwashed samples in for testing.  I'm curious if you let the lab know your intentions and that one was washed and the other not?  This thread has really become something great.  The chemistry knowledge some of you guys have is quite impressive.  I'm blown away.  I truly believe something groundbreaking is about to happen here.  I'm just in awe to be a spectator


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## SympatheticMD

I found two interesting threads

one:http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...e-There-Was-Life-In-Those-Eyes?highlight=mmda

Two:http://www.lycaeum.org/leda/Documents/PIHKAL_109.9401.shtml


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## scatterday

Le Junk said:


> Sorry, I've been away on vacation and missed a large portion of this discussion.  Super excited to hear you sent washed and unwashed samples in for testing.  I'm curious if you let the lab know your intentions and that one was washed and the other not?  This thread has really become something great.  The chemistry knowledge some of you guys have is quite impressive.  I'm blown away.  I truly believe something groundbreaking is about to happen here.  I'm just in awe to be a spectator



The only thing I've sent in unfortunately is a xanax tablet for my reassurance but it's costly and I don't have access to money I can be throwing around per sample like that, Each sample is 220aud, Not asking for any money but any donations would be appreciated and can be paid via paypal or credit card once the results are ready to be sent off and I can publish them so nobody thinks I'm trying to take others money to spend on myself. If you feel more comfortable you can pay for it via paypal. 

I'm even happy to set up a donations page for the testing directly to the laboratory.

So for example 220 aud for the non washed product and another 220 aud for the washed product. Still yet to see if they have access to the the machine capable of isolating isomers but I assume (fingers crossed) if they do it's going to be another few hundred aud. (AKA 220aud per sample analysed)

The chemicals I need for the wash I'll need to re acquire and familiarise myself with the process so I don't mess anything up but the guide I wrote a few pages back should be fine from memory. Still yet to learn the duel recrystallization method, But with plenty of spare time on my hands it should be relatively simple.

What I'm thinking is 3x anhydrous acetone wash into 2X re crystal. Or even a 2x duel solvent recrystallization because the duel solvent is able to keep the impurities out whilst the IPA isolates the MDMA molecule and recrystallizes it. (Suppoedly the cleaner and easier way of doing it according to the chemist I spoke to online). 

Might even visit my local chemical supply company/laboratory and see if I can buy boiling stone instead of the ghetto matchstick technique and publishing a video guide for any beginners if allowed then upload it to youtube from the start of baking epsom salts to the wash and recrystallization...

The problem is my anhydrous acetone and anhydrous IPA have been sitting stationary for years and I suspect H20 has got into them therefore I need to bake the epsom salts and go through the whole process again with fresh acetone and buy fresh anhydrous IPA which in it's self is going to cost money. Because they're hydroscopic and the solutions have been sitting there for 4-5 years I therefore to make a fresh batch incase any contamination of H20 has entered the chemicals (Can never be too sure) Will get it done asap and let everyone know when they're ready to go and be sent off but it won't be for a few weeks to a month.

I will do a pre and post wash calculation to prove the MDMA is in fact extremely pure.

The MDMA I have now was almost moist when I received it and I suspect that being due to the freebase MDMA left in the product or a by-product of the synthesis because ingesting it orally would put chemical like burn marks on my tongue.

All reagent tested of course.

Unlike edata they're able to provide me more comprehensive results which I can publish for proof obviously with the name of myself and the laboratory removed. Details such as cutting agents, fillers and quantity of the product, 

As for MDMA I'm still yet to get a hold of the chemist because he's supposedly a busy man but the xanax tablet arrived safe and sound to my understanding so results should be this week for publishing so you can all view the results.

As I was saying once the results are back I will upload an erowid report but not only consuming the washed MDMA with ingesting some some washed and recrystallized meth so ensure purity is ideal for the report. Will try the experience alone and document as much information as possible.

If I can acquaint myself with the chemist/laboratory employee in discussion a little further I may be able to get the price and testing time down (no promises.)

PLUR scatterday.


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## scatterday

SympatheticMD said:


> I found two interesting threads
> 
> one:http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...e-There-Was-Life-In-Those-Eyes?highlight=mmda
> 
> Two:http://www.lycaeum.org/leda/Documents/PIHKAL_109.9401.shtml



Secondary link broken. The first experience sound pleasant but unfortunately it's not the answers we're looking for. The point of the thread was to determine how MDMA has changed while rolling.

Unfortunately for me 7-8 years of anxiety, agoraphobia, panic attacks, mood swings, insomnia and OCD (germophobia) prevent me from touching anything hallucinogenic. That's why I'm self medicating with alprazolam currently which resolves all of my issues.

All of this I blame on smoking cannabis at a young age. The results are painful to look back at to what damage I could have done to my young developing brain. Be mindful because it caused me 3 trips to the hospital every time I stopped.


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## SympatheticMD

It's because I did a poor job of explaining my purpose because this system keeps logging me off when I type my responses.  I was having a hard time cutting and pasting, and then I couldn't find the important three  parts, where the discussion was actually likened to ours - what is changing MDMA.  They are all saying the exact same thing regarding experience, although few are getting this detailed.

I will try to get that second link to work because it was a ... not an academic study or a journal essay even.. it was more like a manifesto from a woman who was like the mother of MDMA therapists.  She also appeared to know a lot about enantiomers.  That paper describes different synthetic routes they used back then and even dips into discussions of the effects of different doses of racemically S or R pure (as well as a mixture) MDMA.

I THINK that she (this MDMA guru)  posts on this site because I would swear that she answered a question for someone.  I'll look again and try to find it.  It was 2 am and enough was enough when the damn computer kept erasing what I wrote and logging me off.  

Let me try again to give you her article in two ways.  Here is the link I did exactly as I placed it before.  Then I'll try later to find a different way to cite it.  Never mind, I lost it completely.  I'll work on it later today.  I have to go be a soccer mom and hang out at a Dave and Busters-like place with housewives while our 5th graders celebrate all the hard intellectual miles they've run all year.  

I'd much rather be a cool cat chemist with an independent mind who learns all this stuff from the library than what I have to be for the next couple hours.  Ugh.
But kids are cool.  You'll like them if you have them.  And PS - you're a chemist so you must have access to a centrifuge.  Have a boy.  They are so much easier.  No drama and mental games.  Boys are simple minded, very loud, and active - but all you have to do to have fun with them i the stuff you (hopefully already like)- wrestle, jump on the trampoline with dish soap slathered on it, and play nerf gun wars in the front yard.  And a bit of ping pong on the side. 

So to achieve this, spin your sperm sample and take the stuff from the to because your pansy Y chromosome has fewer genes and the sperm that has the Y floats to the top after you spin it in the machine. 

Although now I'm changing, I think sometimes men have super great relationships with girls.  Something about the opposite genders can work well together.  But in that case, you the sponge at the bottom after you spin it.

Just a tip from an ex-neuroscience geek to a science geek, since you get to know all this other fun stuff.  

Btw, I got logged off while I wrote that message, and when I log back on it erases it AND the computer (Safari) tells me my connection isn't secure, which it never did before I started getting such a search history about the DW and internet privacy.  It's creepy.


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## SympatheticMD

I just read your last paragraph.  I'll talk more about that later.  I'm sorry  - it totally sucks.  I wonder if they will eventually find that some of these things, even hallucinogens themselves, help you later.  I know that ayahuasca is thought to have some promising effects on mental health stuff - but I think they focus more on it improving depression and drug dependence (maybe by psychologically flooding you with stuff that literally shows your brain STOP FUCKING WITH ME).

But I have no doubt that you have researched that area heavily.  And I'll help pay for your experiment.  I may be old, but I can still PayPal and Venmo.  I just don't know what money you were referring to - I'm assuming it was Australian money.  If so, I like Aussies.  You guys have a lot of similarities to us Texans.


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## SympatheticMD

Ok, I tried and tried and tried to search my history to find that second link.  I really think that you and G-Chem are going to love it.  It's the first thing I've read where an actual human being discusses how they made MDMA back then (and apparently they were investigating the different enantiomers) AND tested racemic mixtures, R vs S isolates, and at different doses.  And guess what?  Butt sniffing in rats turns out to be an acceptable dependent variable for the effects of MDMA on  people.  I will look more.  But to tempt you, I did find this article written in Salon about the guru lady who wrote the paper we can no longer access.  She was married to the chemist..  one of the chemists you talk about.  Well, I just have a huge crush on her now.  And I SWEAR that she is contributing to this forum somewhere.  But first, I'm going to have to remember her name.  I think her husband is Shulgim/n.  She wrote for Phikal.  Or they both did.  You may know way more about this.  So here goes my paste - I just copied the entire text so the computer wouldn't screw me
An excellent article from Salon.com, a web favourite of mine. (Full article at bottom) 
_As he's wrapping up, Sferios asks the audience whether any of them did not take drugs in their youth. All sit quietly, hands in their laps, and look around. Not a single hand is raised, a tacit confession that suddenly draws the ravers, academics and therapists together in an admission of collective guilt. "You would be concerned if you thought that those drugs would make you into a zombie 25 years down the road," says Sferios. "And that is the [message] that is being put out there for [ecstasy users]. We're in danger of using scare tactics. They will be exposed for the propaganda that they are, and that undermines the trust that adults and harm-reduction activists and public health and scientists need to have among youth if they are going to listen to the real risks and dangers." 
The room is uncomfortably silent for a moment. Sferios continues: "I've learned to treat my potential adversaries as if they're allies and meet people halfway. That's the only way that we're going to make progress." At that, the audience bursts into applause and the conference ends._
Also some excellent articles on the War against drugs ( http://www.salon.com/directory/topic...ugs/index.html ), and raves ( http://www.salon.com/directory/topics/raves/index.html )
from http://www.salon.com/people/feature/...onf/index.html 
*The disunited states of ecstasy *
At an all-day conference on MDMA, ravers, researchers and anti-drug crusaders debate its pros and cons. Consensus? Just say maybe.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Janelle Brown
Feb. 5, 2001 | SAN FRANCISCO -- On the first Friday in February, George Zimmer, unabashed CEO of the Men's Wearhouse -- the king of perfectly tailored suits, I guarantee it -- is standing under the crisp winter sky outside the Golden Gate Club in San Francisco's wooded Presidio. He's smoking a cigar and squinting through purple-tinted sunglasses as a magenta-and-platinum-haired boy anxiously tries to explain raves. Zimmer, wearing a perfectly fitted black suit and black mock turtleneck, stares quizzically at a small audience of earnest rave veterans and asks, incredulously: "So, do people actually talk at raves?" 
Zimmer has taken ecstasy before, he hesitantly tells me when I corner him for an interview, but only for "therapeutic purposes" with his wife. He is here today, at the State of Ecstasy conference, because he is interested in "dialogue" about the drug; and because the conference's organizer, Marsha Rosenbaum, is a good friend of his. Although one would not, perhaps, expect a kitschy purveyor of affordable tailored suits to be an ecstasy spokesperson, Zimmer isn't out of place. 
The State of Ecstasy conference is being touted as the "first of its kind," a place where researchers, academics, therapists, drug advocates and anti-drug crusaders -- along with a healthy dose of blissful drug users -- can sit down and talk about the love drug and its rise in American culture. Sponsored by the Lindesmith Center/Drug Policy Foundation and the San Francisco Medical Society, the conference has the smack of medical legitimacy but the vibe of a love-in. About 300 people from all walks of life have assembled here today for eight hours to listen to experts discuss everything from how MDMA is addling our brains to the ways rave culture is demonized to how we all need to join forces against the Drug Enforcement Administration. 
Across the lawn from Zimmer, for example, is Ann Shulgin, kind of the Mother Goddess of e-therapy and wife of research chemist Alexander Shulgin, the "Godfather of MDMA," who is generally given credit for rediscovering the drug in 1965. In those days, before ecstasy was made illegal, the Shulgins guided hundreds of people through therapy sessions with the drug. Shulgin was given leave to fiddle with over 200 psychedelics that he synthesized himself; he and his wife were their own guinea pigs. 
Ann Shulgin sits on the grass with her white witchy locks splayed about her, smoking a cigarette and courting an audience of adoring young fans. She autographs her book "Tikhal" -- which, she tells me, she wrote entirely under the influence of MDMA, in once-a-week sessions -- for two shy, clean-cut students from San Diego who flew up here to meet her. The maze of wrinkles on her face deepen as she lectures us sternly about kids these days who just go overboard with drugs without learning moderation from their wizened elders. 
"Most of the drug experimentation community is young people, college age or younger unfortunately," she sighs in exasperation. "For the most part, they are completely unaware of the professional people who are involved in this. One of the things about the young community is they don't read. They don't do homework. They take these drugs and depend on their peer group to tell them to mix this with that. They should be reading to find out what exactly it is that they're doing. But they don't. So they really don't know about this level -- the scientists, the professors. They are always completely ignorant about it." 
But today the kids are listening for once. This conference has brought a bizarre mix of people to the Presidio -- from new agey types like Shulgin straight from the Carlos Castaneda school of drug enlightenment, to hardened researchers who speak not in words but in compounds, to pink-haired ravers who swap tips on tonight's best parties. But this is fitting of this strange drug, which has more kinship with Leary's LSD than with club drugs like cocaine or GHB, and which (according to some scientists) is turning an entire generation of youth into babbling hug-bunnies who may collapse into brain-damaged depression when the long-term effects of ecstasy are finally revealed. 
(But hey, we're young and that's not for a while to come, right? In the meantime, Peace, Love, Unity and Respect!) 
The day is split into three main sections, roughly fitting each of the three core demographics battling it out here. The morning is dedicated to the therapeutic uses of ecstasy, where the Shulgins reign supreme and ecstasy is extolled as a wonder drug that can bring couples together, heal parent-child rifts, solve depression and -- hell, why not? -- bring about world peace. The early afternoon is for the academic doomsayers, the Ph.Ds and researchers and assorted professionals, who will throw indecipherable charts on the wall and explain why ecstasy users' brains are rotting. The ravers get to finish off the day with an explanation of dance culture and why pill-popping teenagers deserve a break.
Inside the conference room, where everyone -- pink- or gray-haired -- is munching on the unifying force of chocolate croissants, I am seated between two academic types. On my left is a doctor from San Diego who snorts disapprovingly every time a researcher talks about the negative results of his or her studies. On my right is Russell Stabler, a medicinal chemist in a rumpled houndstooth jacket and shaggy hair who works for Roche (the pharmaceutical company that gave the world Valium, which we used to take before we discovered ecstasy). 
I ask Stabler whether Roche is considering medical uses of MDMA and he says, "Too much liability," and besides, since you can't take ecstasy every day or it will simply stop working, corporate pill-pushers don't see much of a market (they prefer drugs you have to take 12 times a day). He is here for purely personal interest, he says, before launching into an indecipherable diatribe about the wonders of twiddling with compounds. I try to catch what he's saying but give up when I realize that this mysterious "Ethyl" he keeps referring to is not actually Lucille Ball's sidekick. 
The morning's highlight -- and the first standing ovation of the day -- is a young redhead named Sue Stevens, who launches into a painful tale about her own ecstasy usage. Stevens' marriage fell apart when her husband was diagnosed with cancer at age 22; using ecstasy together, she says, enabled them to rediscover their profound love. Stevens credits those ecstasy sessions with her husband's surprisingly prolonged life -- "he just decided to live again!"; he lasted three years longer than the doctors predicted. Stevens also credits ecstasy with saving her from suicide after he died. She cries on the podium; so does half the audience, including me. 
She is followed by Ann Shulgin, who speaks briefly about her observations from her MDMA-therapy years back in the 1980s. Although these researchers contend that MDMA has "accepted medical use" -- mostly for couples therapy and depression -- the DEA declared MDMA a Schedule 1 drug in 1985, which means that it is seen as having no redeeming qualities whatsoever and prohibits any further non-government-approved research with the drug (and the government has not approved much). After Shulgin finishes, I wander outside, where I discover the raver contingency smoking and swapping tips. 
Most of them seem to be volunteers from DanceSafe, a pioneering organization that sagely advocates harm reduction rather than anti-drug proselytizing, and uses its raver army to educate drug-using kids about the safest way to use the drug. The ravers are vaguely -- perhaps rightfully? -- distrustful of the older generations around them. ("Let's play spot the fed!" one says, as I sit down.) One such volunteer is Vanessa, a sweet-faced, ponytailed 17-year-old wearing a "Less Is More" DanceSafe T-shirt, a variety of fluorescent necklaces and oversize jeans that billow around her like enormous denim sails. 
Vanessa was recently kicked out of high school after getting caught with ecstasy; she's done drugs exactly 17 times, she tells me. She is currently taking a break from ecstasy until April. "I was always fearful: Is it going to make me stupid in 20 years? Am I going to feel all the, like, bad things I did to my body?" Vanessa asks. "Today it's, like, I'm looking at everything kind of in a career aspect. This is something I'm interested in and I don't think that's going to go away. Seeing professionals out there and seeing how many careers exist around this topic, the culture that I'm so interested in -- it's been nice." 
After lunch (the vegetarian sandwiches disappear first), I head back indoors. Lining the hallways are tables full of pamphlets from the organizations that have shown up here. There is an advertisement for Andrea van de Loo, who offers "intuitive touch process, acupressure, hypnotherapy and shamanic journeys" for $90 a pop; a flier for an upcoming conference on "further perspectives on altered consciousness"; copies of the Entheogen Review ("The Journal of Unauthorized Research on Visionary Plants and Drugs"); assorted harm-reduction pamphlets; and a variety of papers about MAPS, the famed Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, which does nonprofit research into drugs. 
There I corner Joseph DeNagy, a freckle-faced medical student. He is, he tells me, inspired by the wide variety of people who have assembled here today. "It's very exciting," he gushes. "It's like we're entering a new American society, an era of cognitive liberty!" I glance down at the table we're standing by and notice that he has just used the exact same phrase that is on the cover of a pamphlet. The Borg exists, and we are he. 
Compared to the sunny morning of pro-ecstasy cheerleading, the afternoon is decidedly grim. For three grueling hours, researcher after researcher stands up to give dense academic presentations about MDMA's effects on the brain, as the screen fills up with neat multicolored charts full of chemical symbols and bar graphs depicting rat brains and jargon about isotopes and stereochemistry and neurotoxicity. It is as mind-numbing as some of the researchers say MDMA is. The upshot: Ecstasy is bad for your brain. Among the nasty stuff it does: It kills all your serotonin and "prunes" the axons that release the chemical so that your brain will never function the same way again. It also gives you hypothermia, prevents your body from regulating its core temperature and inhibits long-term memory function. Or maybe not. 
Dr. George Ricuarte, the Grim Reaper of the MDMA world in his dark suit, neatly trimmed black hair and scornful, dismissive stare, is the controversial researcher behind much of the most negative findings. Apparently he has his detractors, some of whom are on the same panel. Many of them claim he's inflammatory and biased; it is his research, after all, that the DEA is using to justify increasing the penalties for MDMA-related crimes and harm-reduction education. 
During the question and answer period, a number of pro-ecstasy attendees come to the microphone to dispute Ricuarte's findings, including one 80-year-old bald man in a purple turtleneck and blue cardigan. "I've been taking MDMA for 24 years, and have probably taken it 100 or 150 times," he brags, as the audience looks at him incredulously. "Last time I took it I was 77 years old and at the time I had a doctor scan my brain, and he told me it was the brain of a man much younger. I'm at the top of my cognitive function. So where's the brain damage?" Ricuarte blurts out a vague nonanswer referring to future research and data that still needs to be parsed. 
After about 20 pro-drug researchers have stood up to debunk and challenge the academics, we're an hour behind schedule. The ravers are getting shafted out of the time promised them, but that doesn't stop Dustianne North from encouraging the audience to sit through a few minutes of electronic music so that they can understand where ravers are coming from. North, with her pink hair and faux-Chanel suit, is a Ph.D. candidate at UCLA and a proud advocate of dance culture. She shows slides of blissed-out ravers and argues lucidly that the dance culture is not about teens zonked out of their heads at raves but about tribalism, community and collective love. "We share the goal of safety and health among youth," she insists. "If you want to help youth, understand that the world they face today is more complex perhaps than any other time of history. So please don't beat the 'Just Say No' drum and please don't pretend to advise us on issues that youth may be understanding better than you do. Respect people's right to determine their own choices." 
North gets the second standing ovation of the day. 
The conference ends with Emanuel Sferios, the animated founder of DanceSafe, who was supposed to give a speech about harm reduction but who has decided to piss off the conference organizers by using his 15 minutes to personally challenge Ricuarte and assorted other researchers in the audience who refuse to return his e-mails. The audience shifts uncomfortably in its seats as Sferios alternates between his indecipherable grudge match and rational observations. His main point: "Americans are starting to wake up to the fact that the drug war is not working and are looking for alternatives." 
It is clear, at the end of the day, that ecstasy is in a precarious position. It has become a cultural touchstone, much like crack in the 1980s and LSD in the 1960s and '70s, a deus ex machina thrown onstage to take the blame for reckless behavior. It is appearing on the covers of magazines and being demonized by the government. Rave promoters in New Orleans are facing felony charges under ancient crack house laws; the DEA wants to increase punishments for MDMA users and dealers to levels comparable with heroin; and any legitimate research into ecstasy's positive effects is being swiftly squelched. 
The general consensus at the conference is that yes, ecstasy may damage your brain in some undetermined way, but it's also a powerful drug that can lead to useful kinds of enlightenment. Members of this crowd have taken many different paths, each one radical in its own way, but they seem united in their concerns about the DEA and their support of harm reduction. After all, "Just Say No" has failed at least two generations of teenagers, and when 7.2 percent of young adults 19 to 28 have tried MDMA (as one researcher points out), it's clear that ever-stricter laws and anti-drug propaganda aren't deterring a disaffected youth distrustful of authority and out to have a good time. 
As he's wrapping up, Sferios asks the audience whether any of them did not take drugs in their youth. All sit quietly, hands in their laps, and look around. Not a single hand is raised, a tacit confession that suddenly draws the ravers, academics and therapists together in an admission of collective guilt. "You would be concerned if you thought that those drugs would make you into a zombie 25 years down the road," says Sferios. "And that is the [message] that is being put out there for [ecstasy users]. We're in danger of using scare tactics. They will be exposed for the propaganda that they are, and that undermines the trust that adults and harm-reduction activists and public health and scientists need to have among youth if they are going to listen to the real risks and dangers." 
The room is uncomfortably silent for a moment. Sferios continues: "I've learned to treat my potential adversaries as if they're allies and meet people halfway. That's the only way that we're going to make progress." At that, the audience bursts into applause and the conference ends. 
salon.com
[This message has been edited by pinger (edited 20 February 2001).]


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## SympatheticMD

I give up.  I just cannot find a way to access that second link (turns out the Shulgin was the woman I like :  Ann SHulgin).  Anyway, there is a site out there that is dedicated to the neuropharmacology of hallucinogenic drugs, and THAT is the source of the article.  Unfortunately, I cannot pull it up on Safari or Firefox.  I'm guessing that when I dove into my research wormhole, I accessed it through this bluelight site.  But the weird thing is that when I click on that exact same link on Bluelight now, I cannot pull it up.

In any case, the group is called leda lyaceum.  Look into it when you have some time.


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## SympatheticMD

Scatterday:  several posts ago you asked for a link I posted about all the ways that MDMA affected neurophysiology.  I posted the thing about tolerance based on initial exposure to R or S isomers instead.

So here is what you wanted.  Good look.  I don't have the patience to even see what journal it is, but it's Elsevier published, and they are usually an acceptable group.  What's so fucking weird is that way it is written.  Sit down with a drink or whatever your poison might be, and hang in there.  He talks about mental organs.  However, within it, is some very interesting bullet points about the the places that MDMA works within the brain.  Once I learned it acted on Calcium channels, I bowed out.  He didn't seem to think oxytocin was an important mediator of the empathic effect.  He kept talking about some ... neurotransmitter or receptor I hadn't heard of, which depressed me because you lose a lot when you get out of the academic game.

Anyway, have patience, and check this out:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987715004727#b0355


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## scatterday

SympatheticMD said:


> I just read your last paragraph.  I'll talk more about that later.  I'm sorry  - it totally sucks.  I wonder if they will eventually find that some of these things, even hallucinogens themselves, help you later.  I know that ayahuasca is thought to have some promising effects on mental health stuff - but I think they focus more on it improving depression and drug dependence (maybe by psychologically flooding you with stuff that literally shows your brain STOP FUCKING WITH ME).
> 
> But I have no doubt that you have researched that area heavily.  And I'll help pay for your experiment.  I may be old, but I can still PayPal and Venmo.  I just don't know what money you were referring to - I'm assuming it was Australian money.  If so, I like Aussies.  You guys have a lot of similarities to us Texans.



I believe we are very alike, Both Texans and Aussies. I love the dry hot weather over here (Apologies for derailing the thread once again)

Appreciate the kind gesture and I'll let you know once everything is ready to go and washed. So we can do a pre wash analysis and post wash analysis.

Once again thank you for your offering to pay for the laboratory results. Once I get my xanax results back I can show you they're legitimate and even PM anyone who asks the laboratory name along with contact details to confirm pricing and any other relevant information.

The currency is Australian dollar so I assume that would be approximately $166 per sample. Closer to $167 but I didn't want to add the decimal places.

This is anything but a scam I can assure you.

I want to connect with my former self on MDMA and I understood the analogy behind the sperm if that's what you were referring to.

The old physiological and psychological feelings associated with MDMA I remember very clearly and differently. That's all I want back our oldschool MDMA.


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## scatterday

From the information I can gather smoking cannabis prior to an MDMA high can heighten/potentiate the experience even at lower doses. As a non cannabis user anymore I'd like to experiment with that in my erowid report once I get around to it. i should have no THC in my blood therefore it would act great smoking a joint prior to an MDMA high.

This brings me back to one of my first rolls and using cannabis prior to the MDMA based ecstasy based consumption. It's almost like it acted like a primer/probe as the article says.

The quote from the article below is how I felt emotionally taking ecstasy in the early 2000-late 2000 era (Not so much in the late era).

"Nevertheless, a certain commonality exists in the kinds of feeling states usually named: ecstasy, *empathy, openness, compassion, peace, acceptance, forgiveness, healing, oneness, and caring. Individuals are able, if their intention in taking the substance is serious and therapeutic, to use the state to resolve long-standing intrapsychic conflicts or interpersonal problems in relationships*….

“*People feel they have true compassion, forgiveness, and understanding for those with whom they have important relationships. Most importantly, in terms of the therapeutic implications, they have empathy and compassion for themselves, for their ordinary, neurotic, childish, struggling persona or ego. The relative absence or attenuation of normal anxiety and fear in these states is perhaps the single most important feature in regard to their therapeutic value. People report being able to think about, talk about, and deal with inner or outer issues that are otherwise avoided because of the anxiety levels normally associated with those issues.*"

This is what I miss and I want it back and this dutch mongy MDMA doesn't give me this. I have several friends who suspect the same thing. It's definitely not loss of magic it's altered by either isomer ratios or synthetic routes to achieve the desired product. Potentially adulterants are responsible like this as I have mentioned like meth.


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## G_Chem

Hey guys just got a quick min..

I wanted to say that first link appeared to be a thread about MMDA not MDMA.  Two very different drugs.  MMDA is very rare and more like an off breed of MDA and Mescaline with something unique added in.

The second link is essentially the holy grail of a lot of phenethylamine research.  It is from PIHKAL and actually was written by a man named Alexander Shulgin (also know as Sasha, which may have given you the impression he was a female.)  Yes he is the "grandfather" of mdma and he is credited for bringing it out of the depths of the underground therapy scene in California at the time.  Much of the discussion in this incredibly long thread is based on the notes of his regarding isomers.  As he is one of the few to actually do the research.  He had full government clearance for quite awhile to do this because he would often testify on behalf of the DEA, but once his work started being used by the underground chemists they raided him for no good reason as a scare tactic.

I cried the day that man died.  And later that day I saw something from the west I'd never seen before, I even took a picture of it.  It was a cloud that was a rainbow, it was in a donut shape and there was a beam of light shooting up into the sky.  Still don't know how to explain the beam of light...

3 days later I had the most incredibly life changing experience on a combination of MDMA and San Pedro (two of his favorites, this was pre planned before his death) that was on par with my first roll ever.  I asked for him to watch over the experience as it came on and he provided me with everything I could have asked for..  Id like to think he was watching over me.

-GC


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## Ionized

scatterday said:


> Maybe the chemists have found a way to disguise the results or are simply not adding amphetamine anymore because the reagent test results looks different and react different to how we test pills now not to mention there has been a huge meth incline in since the treaty for safrole was established and it's cheaper to make MDMA without amphetamine so why bother?
> 
> Amphetamine definitely potentiates the roll and gives it legs. There is documented evidence here in the reports below. Potentially some caffeine too?



Would it help to mix MDMA and MDA lets say half and half and consume that? Sounds like it would restore the energetic feeling that todays MDMA lacks.


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## EntheoDjinn

Ionized said:


> Would it help to mix MDMA and MDA lets say half and half .......................



My recollection of past discussions about MDA is that it is definitely neurotoxic.  Whereas it seems (Bluelight folklore?) that pre- and post-loading various substances may help to mitigate the neurotoxic effects of MDMA, I got the impression that MDA was something to be treated with care and not used as a matter of course.

Any thoughts?


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## scatterday

Ionized said:


> Would it help to mix MDMA and MDA lets say half and half and consume that? Sounds like it would restore the energetic feeling that todays MDMA lacks.


A page or two back I linked several reports of ecstasy I was consuming years ago and was fantastic during and before my era.

There have been test results indicative of amphetamine/methamphetmine most likely present within the pills.

Not that I condone amphetamine usage but a small amount mixed with some MDMA is likely to bring the energetic feeling MDMA today lacks and likely some of the piece of the puzzle. As I was explaining an online chemist once said MDMA, MDA and ampetamine sulphate was the ultimate ecstasy combination to keep you dancing all night.

I still firmly believe the problem lies in the synthesis and precursors. Shortcuts and cheap precursors are the result of this due to safrole being so hard to obtain now in large quantities.

When I think of ecstasy I think of 2 things. Small gatherings with friends with deep and meaningful conversations and the party/rave drug that made you dance all night, Even either in combination working in synergy with each other.

I enjoy the second but think the first can be good providing set and setting is well organised.

For example consuming the same batch of MDMA with a friend of mine was alright I suppose.

A few months later I organised a smoke machine, Laser lights, some mixing decks for beats and strobe light and the experience was magical with the same product.

Set and setting most likely do influence the experience although it was no where near as good as the pre 2008 era ecstasy there was still something not quite right.


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## indigoaura

Damn.

Took me two nights of reading to catch up on this thread. I had all these comments in my head, and I think I forgot a lot of them!

Sympathetic MD: Thanks for posting that MMDA link. I had a very strange experience many years ago with some pills, and reading this, it sounds the same. The pills were regeant tested, and the result was good, but the effect was very psychedelic. Mind movies is an accurate description, with a bit of lucid dreaming thrown in.

Also, are you on a Mac? Maybe that is part of your problem with the extra censoring you are experiencing. Macs/Iphones are weird with that shit. Have you installed the TOR browser yet?

You posted some quotes from Sferios. He was the founder/leader of Dancesafe in the early 2000s.  I met him back when I volunteered with Dancesafe. He was an amazing speaker, and incredibly charismatic. I remember sitting around in this living room and listening to him talk, in total awe. 

Scatterday, will this lab accept submissions from outside of Australia? Is there a way to pay anonymously?


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## indigoaura

And Scatterday...your comments about weed remind me of something I have noticed. Lots of the LTC threads involve mixing MDMA and weed, or smoking weed shortly after the MDMA experience. Makes me wonder if there is a connection. I have seen some people go off the rails after heavy marijuana use. When you said you were hospitalized when you stopped smoking, I am curious what you were hospitalized for. Was it anxiety/depression and similar to LTC?


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## SympatheticMD

G_Chem:  I really wish that I could get the link to the article I found where Shulgin described her (or apparently his) reaction to the different enantiomers.  I'll keep trying.  I'm actually bummer to hear that it was just a single man.  What I read was that it was a couple promoting using MDMA as a therapeutic drug:  the woman was the therapist, and Shulgin was the man and the chemist.  

I'm enjoying the way I get people's genders confused on this website.

As for me and using Mac and the NSA:  yes I am on a Mac, Yes, I eventually learned to use a Tor browser and some other trip thing, but not until I made some key rookie mistakes.  Howe3ver, I have found the dark web to be very dark indeed so I'm backing off for a bit.  You get what  you snoop for.


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## indigoaura

MD: You may very well have read an article written by Shulgin's wife, Ann. They were a team, and they worked together. Yes, he was the chemist, but they were both vocal about their use of psychedelics.


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## G_Chem

^^^Yes you are indeed correct MD. My apologies..  I assumed wrong when all I saw was the page with the chemistry info (from Alexander), as I've heard other people think he was a female by the name Sasha.

Who knows is Sasha would of ever been who he was if it wasn't for Anne, you can tell in all the interviews that she was likely a huge catalyst for his dedication.

@indigo- You volunteered for dancesafe.  Good for you brother, I've never volunteered but I've probably advertised more for them than just about any person out there.  I've met and known a few of the higher up folks myself, but won't get into it any further than that.

Yea there's a lot to keep up with here.  This thread has turned absolutely giant.  We may see a v2 here soon   That'd be nice because then we could compile some of the highlights of this thread for others to more easily see.

@LeJunk- I have to thank you brother.  You did get this thing rolling and it's grown into a beautiful work of art.  Also real quick would like to say thanks for your threads regarding purification from way back.  Those helped me grow my knowledge as a youngster, as well as gave me the motivation to make my own extraction and purification threads.  Much appreciated for that 

-GC


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## indigoaura

This is for all ya'll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia5sTCeyWug

@G_Chem, I can't claim much credit for the Dancesafe thing. It is hard to remember, because it was 18 years ago, but as I recall, it just never developed really. I signed up, and I was on the list. I went to the meeting with Emanuel Sferios. But I never actually made it to an event where I manned a booth. I can't recall now if Dancesafe just could not get off the ground in my area, or what the issue was. But, I had the test kits and I shared those and took them with me to parties and whatnot. I remember at the time being SO excited that I was able to use my real first name on the Dancesafe forum when it opened, because I was one of the first people who registered. Seems silly now. Why would you want to use your real name on an internet forum where you talk about illegal stuff? In any case...I was not as much of a volunteer as I wanted to be, but meeting Sferios stands out in my memory as a high point.


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## SympatheticMD

Ya'll are awesome.  And I mean that from the bottom of my Texan heart


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## SympatheticMD

G-Chem : do you have any references or articles about Shulgin and his wife?  I'd like to read about them


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## G_Chem

^^^Id give ya hug if I could 

And yea some places just didn't respond well to dancesafe.  Sadly now it's only gotten worse over the years where many venues and festivals won't allow them because it goes against the RAVE Act.  I've watched as it went from them being at most festivals I went to and some shows to them having to essentially be covert in their mission to protect others.  Truly sad.  I saw them get shut down mid way in a festival one time.  

That same festival some guy was walking around selling bottles of Marquis with near zero info on them.  One girl had one open up in her pocket and wasn't aware of the caustic nature until it was too late.  This is why we need booths with professionals.

-GC


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## indigoaura

I once got marquis testing liquid in my eye. My whole face was swollen. That was interesting to explain to the eye doctor. :/


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## scatterday

indigoaura said:


> And Scatterday...your comments about weed remind me of something I have noticed. Lots of the LTC threads involve mixing MDMA and weed, or smoking weed shortly after the MDMA experience. Makes me wonder if there is a connection. I have seen some people go off the rails after heavy marijuana use. When you said you were hospitalized when you stopped smoking, I am curious what you were hospitalized for. Was it anxiety/depression and similar to LTC?



I smoked cannabis via a bong from the ages of 13-18ish heavily, Stopped and started 3 times between the years mentioned. I believe what you're claiming about the LTC's have no connection with cannabis at all, Subjective opinions of course.

All the hospitalisations were as a result of withdrawal symptoms, Folks say there's no withdrawal symptoms from cannabis but that's a lie if you're a heavy user.

Symptoms included feeling body organs and pains inside my body that weren't real. (I could feel what I believed to be my liver and just an uncomfortable feeling in that area which in the following few days had some blood work done and everything came back fine. Liver and kidneys were functioning perfectly and the doctors said they wouldn't have known I was a cigarette smoker if I hadn't had told them, Stopped smoking 5-6 years ago and took up using electronic cigarettes instead. Haven't felt healthier since. Senses of taste and smell have increased which is fantastic.) 

One of the hospitalisations included thoughts of skin cancer on my neck. The doctor told me not to worry because it was cannabis withdrawals causing these "fake" pains. (due to the withdrawal symtoms) where I could feel this uncomfortable feeling where this mole was. (Had that checked out and there was no signs or indications of skin cancer). Thoughts of death were another regular occurence which is when the doctors first prescribed me temazepam for the anxiety but unfortunately now temazepam isn't strong enough.

The first time I stopped smoking cannabis and picked the habit back up again, It was just never the same I used to smoke to feel normal and would enjoy working a 12 hour shift and unwinding with a bong, Not much beat that feeling. I couldn't enjoy it anymore though and would feel like there was a pressure like feeling in my head like my brain was expanding and throbbing, Extreme paranoia, Anxiety ect. Getting too high would feel uncomfortable where as prior I could smoke until the point of almost "greening out" and still enjoy it.

Experimented with it lately multiple times and I have enjoyed it with a friend but I've left it at that and learnt never to abuse it again. Cannabis with old school MDMA was the perfect chill out/comedown drug if you would call it that because it would extend the experience and eventually bring you back to earth gently from the amphetamine high.

I firmly believe now I have a neurotransmitter imbalance because of abusing cannabis on a growing adolescent brain. 

For 7-8 years I've had symptoms of anxiety, agoraphobia, paranoia, mood swings, insomnia, Mild/Rare depression and bowel issues. (caused by the anxiety and agoraphobia). Generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) pretty much sums up most of it but the damage was definitely done by the cannabis and I'm sure.

If you've heard of PGR cannabis that's what I was unaware of at the time and I believe I was smoking plenty of it which lead to the statements above. Now I'm very picky with cannabis if I smoke it.

What worries me most is most of these symptoms above are/can be lifelong and never disappear this is why xanax and old school MDMA not used in conjunction with eachother (Maybe on the comedown but we used to smoke cannabis to potentiate the MDMA high for an extended period of approximately 3-4 hours) are my all time favourite drugs.

Now that I've been introduced to xanax (alprazolam) I feel like I've reconnected with my former self 7-8 years ago before these mental health issues started. I was chatting up a female police officer and cutting her colleagues lunch because I think her male partner fancied her so he threatened me. I knew she loved it too because her face went bright pink and she was fanning herself. She kept looking over at me and smiling. All of this was done on a few xanax tri score bars.

If he wasn't there I was sure I would have got her phone number and had been able to arrange a few dates. Yet to know the female police officer was dating someone who was a regular illicit and pharmaceutical drug user.

Now when I've taken alprazolam I'm always looking for wedding rings because there was another funny incident which I'll explain some other time.

I used to be this confident and be able to speak to women like that normally without any drugs. 

Enough about my anyway I get carried away and tend to derail the thread regularly.

Another thought that popped into mind was if you aren't a regular cannabis user (a few times per month) and have access to MDMA you can most likely get cannabis too. Try getting high with some sativa cannabis prior to your experience to see if it potentiates the experience and brings back those lovely feelings or at least parts of them.

There could be several things affecting the way we interpret the feeling produced by MDMA now. Cannabis, Synthesis, Safrole vs piperanol, Isomer ratios, Salts, By-products, Contaminants, Adulterants, Amphetamines. 

It's really just all a matter of elimination until we find the source but I find it extremely coincidental around 2008 when the safrole treaty was signed MDMA disappeared then when it returned stronger and more accessible those psychological and physiological feelings weren't the same. Everyone says it no matter who you ask, Just all seems to coincidental if you ask me.

Whenever I used MDMA it was like I was being lifted into the clouds/heaven gently. Now it's this mongy type dirty feeling.

If they claim it's still the same they must never tried an early 2000's era pill or pre 2000 era pill containing MDMA.

Upon remembering I was never a heavy smoker when I consumed MDMA and we would never mix our cannabis with tobacco when rolling which is strange because if we weren't rolling it would always make us cough but we could pack massive bong hits and inhale them like champions and have the MDMA high potentiated even further upon smoking the cannabis.

I always looked after my body preventing neurotoxicity with 5-htp in any way I could. Using it for a while before an MDMA experience then stopping at a certain point before the experience and waiting until after the MDMA was completely gone from my system before I took the 5-htp again.

Piracetam is honestly something worth looking into because on new years back a few years ago taking piracetam daily as recommended definitely changed the experience in a better way.

It felt like as some may say "the magic is gone" but the magic was still there. Still not the same experience as early 2000's era but I'd rate the experience a 6/10 and I'm very fussy when it comes to rating my experiences.

Those purple crowns I linked in one of my last comments I would rate 10/10 without question.

If you read through most of those reports they all mention a "feint/musky/aniseed" type smell but I don't get that smell anymore. It's still resembles aniseed in a way but not the smell I am familiar with.

If you gave me a purple crown (The one I experienced) and a 2018 dutch super strong 300mg MDMA pill I would be able to tell you without touching only smelling and my eyes closed which one the purple crown was.

I mean doesn't it say it's a dead give away when we're getting 300mg pills now with quarter scoring on them when early 2000's era we were getting 100-150mg at most per pill. Something about MDMA has changed. If they're affording to put 300mg of "Pure" MDMA inside pills it makes me wonder how they're cutting costs because they've found a way to do that via cheaper precursors and or synthesis techniques (piperanol I'm looking at you).

I mean even the feeling of the after effects (being scattered as us aussies would say, Which is where "scatterday") the name came from has changed. The hangover type feeling feels different now.


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## G_Chem

@MD- Check out the documentary "Dirty Pictures" from what I can remember.  Very good and gives you a huge insight into their lives.

-GC


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## indigoaura

Scatterday, I don't want to de-rail the post too much, but there is something you should look into. You said:



> For 7-8 years I've had symptoms of anxiety, agoraphobia, paranoia, mood swings, insomnia, Mild/Rare depression and bowel issues. (caused by the anxiety and agoraphobia). Generalised anxiety disorder (GAD) pretty much sums up most of it but the damage was definitely done by the cannabis and I'm sure.



Have you ever been checked for a B12 deficiency? 



> a severe vitamin B12 deficiency can lead to deep depression, paranoia and delusions, memory loss, incontinence, loss of taste and smell, and more.



https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/vitamin-b12-deficiency-can-be-sneaky-harmful-201301105780

Anxiety can be a huge issue for those who have a B12 deficiency. Even if you don't get tested, you should try supplementing with a sublingual methylcobalmin. I use a spray from a company called Garden of Life. If you want more details or anecdotes, PM me. Oral vitamins won't do anything if your bowel issues are preventing you from absorbing the B12 properly in the digestive system. There are genetic issues as well, which can be complicated. 

Totally worth it to supplement and see if it helps your anxiety.


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## indigoaura

Another link for you: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404901/


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## scatterday

indigoaura said:


> Scatterday, I don't want to de-rail the post too much, but there is something you should look into. You said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever been checked for a B12 deficiency?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/vitamin-b12-deficiency-can-be-sneaky-harmful-201301105780
> 
> Anxiety can be a huge issue for those who have a B12 deficiency. Even if you don't get tested, you should try supplementing with a sublingual methylcobalmin. I use a spray from a company called Garden of Life. If you want more details or anecdotes, PM me. Oral vitamins won't do anything if your bowel issues are preventing you from absorbing the B12 properly in the digestive system. There are genetic issues as well, which can be complicated.
> 
> Totally worth it to supplement and see if it helps your anxiety.



My vitamin B levels was actually higher than usual last blood results. GP told me to stop taking multi vitamins and that was the cause of the elevation in vitamin levels.

I can most certainly pin point it down to my cannabis abuse as a young adolescent.


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## psy997

indigoaura said:


> I use a spray from a company called Garden of Life.



FYI Amazon just bought Garden of Life   Best to find another company IMO.


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## scatterday

I will be sending 2 samples of unwashed and washed MDMA off to a laboratory for gc/ms testing in approximately a month or two. They're able to determine isomer ratios and I can report back with my experience.

The chemist of the laboratory said that piperanol can most definitely change the isomer ratios of MDMA so I think we can solidly speculate why MDMA is different now if it's being synthesized with piperanol. If they were previously synthesising MDMA with safrole the isomer ratios would have indeed been different according to the gc/ms chemist.

He said he obtained a sample of safrole 10 years ago and didn't know what it was until I told him it was a precursor in MDMA along with piperanol being the new precursor that's replaced it. He also explains it's cheap to buy which is most likely why the street chemists manufacturing these dutch mongy pills can afford to put more MDMA in their pills.

300mg per pill give or take is absurd for a pill when pre 2008 before the treaty was signed we were likely to see 100-150mg.

Until these gc/ms tests come back and I upload my erowid user report we cannot know for sure.

It'll be interesting to find if washing the MDMA will change the isomer ratios or not. This is something I'm definitely very interested in and so is the chemist.

Just thought I'd chime in with my findings to see what others think but isomer ratios and synthesis routes are the most likely cause at this point in time according to the gc/ms chemist.

He also did mention piperanol was a reagent for testing in the laboratory and was pleasantly surprised when I said it was the new precursor for MDMA.


----------



## Hapomen22

*This great insightful post pretty much sums it up.* 

Back in the days, MDMA had the more potent S-Isomer MDMA. Then in the mid to late 2000s and early 2010s, MDMA was mainly synthed through PMK oil, which was 50-S/50-R MDMA and almost as potent as the Safrole MDMA dose for dose. Nowadays, it is probably synthed in new cheaper and easier ways like with Piperanol, we can assume that synth route gives a R-Isomer dominant MDMA, hence is less potent and needs higher doses. Also when I was doing MDMA in 2012, the prices were higher IIRC around $40 for a gram, nowadays it's $10 for a gram with is ridiculously cheap. Drugs don't get cheaper, unless there's a good reason why like bigger blackmarket competition or less potency due to a different synthesis route. 

So if users want the "Old school" MDMA back, your best realistic bet is to go with the RS MDMA, you just need to find a hookup that has a batch of PMK oil synthesized MDMA. This is just my take on the whole situation and of course, I might be wrong. 



Biscuit said:


> For anyone still doubting the effects which changing the isometric ratio of the S and R isomers in MDMA is going to have, I found this on a web page that had collated a lot of information about phenylethylamines:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.slideshare.net/RyanHemming/the-chemistry-of-mdma-and-various-other-phenethylamines
> 
> The increase in the dosages of these pills is not a coincidence either, something which the above image confirms seems very likely due to the MDMA containing a much greater proportion of the "much less potent" R isomer over the S.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^We've got lots of evidence that prove the contrary, and it's safe to say that while isomer ratios vary it's doubtful they are the reason people complain about mdma these days.  One isomer may be more desirable but I doubt it'd effect things much in terms of the problems we're seeing unless it was very high quantities of R-MDMA.

And great job scatterday! That's all very interesting that the lab chemist seems to agree it could vary as well as the other information he told you.  I'm excited to see the results in the future!

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

Been busy...

Im confused ?  The chemist Scatterday spoke with thinks that isomer ratios will be different. But You dont think it has an effect? 

A differing synthetic route can create a different subjective experience in only two ways 
1.) different precursors or side reactions creating different side effects
2.) Isomeric ratio of the end product. 

Thats it. So if it is the synthetic route that is diffferent, these are the only two things it can be

Another thing I find interesting: What is with all these weird posts and stories about long term comedowns and shit? I had never seen this when I was young. Is it some new thing or are people who roll too much getting their own name for the condition?

And what is with these dutch pills that have 220mg ? Kids may be too dumb to know that you should split them, which I have seen on the websites selling them suggesting. And when you buy from a third party on the street he probably doesnt tell you what the description said on the website. This is leading to LTC and all the bad reactions to MDMA. Or is it that the MDMA sucks and they need to give you 220mg for a good roll, but it now has twice the junk in it creating more side effects? 

This does nothing for the guy that weighs crystals and takes 120 and says the roll sucks though..


----------



## psy997

Dosages are so high in dutch pills because the subpar product isn't producing desired effects. I'm not sure what you mean about it meaning nothing to the guy that weighs out 120mg and has a shitty roll, though. The last three times I've had MDMA has been this subpar shit, greyish crystals, weighed out and taken from 120-150mg, and it's all been meh. I'm not sure taking more would even fix it. As of now, my believe is that the LTC is from neurotoxic impurities combining with the potentially/inherent neurotoxic properties of MDMA and causing massive backlash.


----------



## Ionized

Beenhead said:


> Or is it that the MDMA sucks and they need to give you 220mg for a good roll, but it now has twice the junk in it creating more side effects?



Probably that...
And I still don't see how they can sell it at the ridiculously low prices they sell it nowadays. Used to be $20 a pill typically.


----------



## G_Chem

@Beenhead, I've never said it doesn't have an effect.. Quite the contrary.  I've said I don't think it's responsible for the whole plethora of issues we see with MDMA these days.

Bringing up the LTC is a good example.  I 100% agree that LTC seems to be something that's only become problematic since this "change" people speak of.  I can say with almost complete certainty that LTC is not caused by an excess of R-MDMA. (Or S for that matter.)

When we look at Glubras reports we see that people can get floored by and thoroughly enjoy R-MDMA heavy product.

Maybe if it was like almost pure R-MDMA would people start being disappointed.  But if people took enough they'd feel it, and on top of that it'd last much longer than today's product.

Again the isomers vary a lot from one another but is it the cause of our problems? Probably not in my opinion.  It doesn't come close to fitting the profile.

I could believe if maybe it was a combination of R heavy product with an impurity causing the issues but not R-MDMA by itself.

I believe isomer variation of mdma is probably as old as mdma itself based on my research and experiences but we'll never know if I'm right...

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

IMO, there has to be some kind of impurity present in addition to potential isomer variation. There is just too much sickness with the comedown. With the sleepy product I have had access to, there can be a sick comedown even at relatively low doses. And if you raise the dose too high, you still don't roll right, but you get super sick afterwards.

Back in the day (early 2000s), it was not uncommon for me to take 5 pills in a night. Never had sick comedowns like this. 

Scatterday - I want to send your chemist a sample. Is that possible?


----------



## scatterday

Ionized said:


> Probably that...
> And I still don't see how they can sell it at the ridiculously low prices they sell it nowadays. Used to be $20 a pill typically.



The chemist at the gc/ms laboratory said piperanol was a reagent they used in chemistry for the equipment they used to analyse substances with. Can't remember what exactly but he said it's cheap and comes in 2 forms.

That's why they're able to put 300mg per pill because of precursor pricing.

safrole was more risky to import and not to mention more expensive.

Anyone who says their product is safrole based doesn't have a clue because it's under such strict regulation currently the chances of seeing or obtaining it would be near impossible unless you live in Cambodia (Or canada perhaps I hear) where there is a forest with abundance of the sassafras tree.

2008 was the nail in the coffin for MDMA and once I get my results back it will be able to identify what isomer ratio's we should be expecting with piperanol synth. Which should be racemic (50:50) as far as I'm concerned. I could be wrong but who knows. It's only speculation up until this point

I think the old method of synthesis is responsible for how MDMA used to make us feel regarding isomer ratios. A precursor and different method of synthesis which they would have to be performing with piperanol will change the isomer ratios.

As I said that's why they can afford to put 300mg of MDMA per pill now because their cost fee is much less to synthesise the MDMA.

Nobody has lost the magic and neurotoxic damage as far as I'm concerned isn't responsible for this. Even watching new timers take MDMA doesn't remind me of the times we used to take it in the early to mid 2000's era.

There's no shaking of hands between friends and anybody rolling, There's no deep and meaningful conversations, The willingness to communicate isn't there anymore all people do is couch lock and roll their eyes back, There's no telling people how much you love them. All of these psychological effects aren't visible to a user watching people roll.

I was still feeling fantastic up until the moment it became unavailable to source. Do not blame neurotoxicity for the changes in MDMA. Your brain is a powerful organ and can repair it's self over time. 

My experiences were regular and consistent with how the MDMA used to feel up until the treaty was signed.

That's what happens. You attempt to mend 1 problem then another larger one appears, Which is responsible for the meth epidemic and usage in Australia.

Meth is the new party drug because MDMA based pills were unobtainable from 2008-2011 if I recall correctly.

I mean it's not just us Australians that notice this it's worldwide and there still are rare experiences of people claiming they had the real deal and it sounds like the real deal. These are experienced and seasoned users not just newbies.

The magic still lies out there but so does the key to unlocking it. Eventually and hopefully after the gc/ms test results arrive we will have more of an opinion and discussion to relate towards or eliminate from the potential number of things responsible for the mongy dutch MDMA.

I firmly believe the 300mg per pill is a dead giveaway. 100-150mg is all we needed back in the day which then goes back to 1 isomer ratio heavy batch of MDMA being more potent. If you can drop a full pill as people claim it shows changes in isomer ratios.

There's solid evidence of this.

I mean only a couple of pages back there was a link to an erowid report regarding a user experience on MDMA and how oldschool it felt or how unfamiliar this feeling was.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Its not as rare as you may think but yea for the most part piperanol has pretty much taken over it seems.  Canada does put out safrole mdma and it does come into the northern states in the US.

I'd be willing to bet most of the safrole mdma would be found via in person dealers too.  Old school product made by old school chemists sold the old school way.  Sadly this limits those who live in areas that don't have access to safrole containing plants.

It should be noted Aus does have safrole mdma as well, again though it's through the right circles.  Aus mdma scene has and always will be rough though...

I see all the good stuff people say is gone in this thread but I live where high quality mdma is around.

I'll agree I don't see the love at events like I used to though if I travel elsewhere.  Giving a random stranger a hug as you walk by or randomly massaging someone or getting one yourself isn't something you see anymore sadly . I can't tell why that is though, whether the mdma is bad or cocaine is ruining what I hold dear..

-GC


----------



## anon65535

So I haven't been in this thread since page 26 but I want to add a little update. This is in regard to the MDMA that I washed twice with 75:25 boiling acetone:IPA. I did not recrystallize in IPA afterwards. I simply crushed the MDMA as fine as I could get it and then boiled in the solvent mixture and stirred vigorously until the majority of it was dissolved. I could've kept adding more IPA until it all dissolved but with an ounce of material, I already had quite a bit of boiling solvent and the .5g that wouldn't dissolve didn't bother me much. For reference, the original material was brown, like rootbeer brown. It had a smell, but more of a sweet chemical smell then the anise smell. It had some characteristics similar to the anise smell, but was slightly different.  When I first tried it, I wasn't really astounded by it. It was good but not great. Can't really talk about the hangover because I was doing a lot of drugs at the time.

So I washed, cooled, put in freezer and then poured liquid over filter paper to collect cleaned stuff. Evaporated the rest of the solvent and was left with ~5g (out of 28 grams of material. Additionally, in the dish that had the evaporated solvent, there was a very very sticky dark brown goo that had that same smell as described above. I can't tell you what it was but it was pretty gross. I ended up just collecting that 5g of brown powder and it tested positive via reagent for MDMA but I'm not gonna put it in my body. I did wash it once more but it still came out fairly brown, there wasn't much of a difference.

Report:

I tried the cleaned powder twice. Three weeks apart. Both experiences were similar however, on comedown of both I took a psychedelic. AL-LAD on the first trip, 300ug and LSD on the second, 150ug. Both MDMA experiences were very powerful. The comeup was very similar for both experiences, 40m and I felt it strongly. I took 140mg the first time and actually only 125mg the second time. The second time the come up took me by surprise. I actually got some nausea and smoked to weed to deal with it. It was an intense comeup, more intense than I had previously experienced in other MDMA experiences, even on larger doses. That second time, I actually had a difficult time getting comfortable which I've never had before. The initial rush just took me by such surprise that I had trouble adjusting. It took me a good 1.5-2 hours to really enjoy the peak and get comfortable which I found kind of interesting. Either way, I had some of the classic MDMA insight and empathy. Lots of good introspection and I wrote a bunch of notes on things I wanted to improve. I took LSD at T+3 and eventually that was really all I felt cause it took over.

Either way, I'm fully convinced that the acetone + IPA took out some impurities and I don't know what that brown goo was, or that 5g of other stuff, but I'm glad it's out even if I just discount it as loss. The product I have now is pretty close to an off white. It's more white than off. Crystalline, shiny.

Can't say that I really put any stock into the isomer theory but this felt like classic MDMA to me and had all the common symptoms. Hangover was not bad at all, and the second experience with 125mg MDMA and 150ug LSD left me pretty happy. I didn't go to sleep that night and actually played a music gig that next day. I actually still had mild LSD residual symptoms while playing. Got a great night's sleep that night and the next day, no hangover or anything. So take that as you will. I can post some pics of before and after if it's wanted.

Cheers!


----------



## scatterday

G_Chem said:


> ^^^Its not as rare as you may think but yea for the most part piperanol has pretty much taken over it seems.
> 
> I'll agree I don't see the love at events like I used to though if I travel elsewhere.  Giving a random stranger a hug as you walk by or randomly massaging someone or getting one yourself isn't something you see anymore sadly . I can't tell why that is though, whether the mdma is bad or cocaine is ruining what I hold dear..
> 
> 
> 
> -GC



Completely agree in this regard.



anon65535 said:


> So I haven't been in this thread since page 26 but I want to add a little update. This is in regard to the MDMA that I washed twice with 75:25 boiling acetone:IPA. I did not recrystallize in IPA afterwards. I simply crushed the MDMA as fine as I could get it and then boiled in the solvent mixture and stirred vigorously until the majority of it was dissolved. I could've kept adding more IPA until it all dissolved but with an ounce of material, I already had quite a bit of boiling solvent and the .5g that wouldn't dissolve didn't bother me much. For reference, the original material was brown, like rootbeer brown. It had a smell, but more of a sweet chemical smell then the anise smell. It had some characteristics similar to the anise smell, but was slightly different.  When I first tried it, I wasn't really astounded by it. It was good but not great. Can't really talk about the hangover because I was doing a lot of drugs at the time.
> 
> So I washed, cooled, put in freezer and then poured liquid over filter paper to collect cleaned stuff. Evaporated the rest of the solvent and was left with ~5g (out of 28 grams of material. Additionally, in the dish that had the evaporated solvent, there was a very very sticky dark brown goo that had that same smell as described above. I can't tell you what it was but it was pretty gross. I ended up just collecting that 5g of brown powder and it tested positive via reagent for MDMA but I'm not gonna put it in my body. I did wash it once more but it still came out fairly brown, there wasn't much of a difference.
> 
> Report:
> 
> I tried the cleaned powder twice. Three weeks apart. Both experiences were similar however, on comedown of both I took a psychedelic. AL-LAD on the first trip, 300ug and LSD on the second, 150ug. Both MDMA experiences were very powerful. The comeup was very similar for both experiences, 40m and I felt it strongly. I took 140mg the first time and actually only 125mg the second time. The second time the come up took me by surprise. I actually got some nausea and smoked to weed to deal with it. It was an intense comeup, more intense than I had previously experienced in other MDMA experiences, even on larger doses. That second time, I actually had a difficult time getting comfortable which I've never had before. The initial rush just took me by such surprise that I had trouble adjusting. It took me a good 1.5-2 hours to really enjoy the peak and get comfortable which I found kind of interesting. Either way, I had some of the classic MDMA insight and empathy. Lots of good introspection and I wrote a bunch of notes on things I wanted to improve. I took LSD at T+3 and eventually that was really all I felt cause it took over.
> 
> Either way, I'm fully convinced that the acetone + IPA took out some impurities and I don't know what that brown goo was, or that 5g of other stuff, but I'm glad it's out even if I just discount it as loss. The product I have now is pretty close to an off white. It's more white than off. Crystalline, shiny.
> 
> Can't say that I really put any stock into the isomer theory but this felt like classic MDMA to me and had all the common symptoms. Hangover was not bad at all, and the second experience with 125mg MDMA and 150ug LSD left me pretty happy. I didn't go to sleep that night and actually played a music gig that next day. I actually still had mild LSD residual symptoms while playing. Got a great night's sleep that night and the next day, no hangover or anything. So take that as you will. I can post some pics of before and after if it's wanted.
> 
> Cheers!



Great to hear your washed MDMA provided you a more enjoyable experience and you were safely able to wash the impurities out. If you prefer larger crystals cool the solvent down slower by reducing heat on your heating element which will further remove impurities.

Did you use a boiling stone or broken matchstick to prevent the liquids from superheating?

This is something crucial in washing MDMA. Especially when you mentioned all the MDMA didn't disolve in the IPA solution (providing both solvents were anhydrous). You could have further extracted contaminants from the MDMA and may have super heated the liquids which would have caused a greater loss in yield.

I don't remember boiling solvents, You don't want to boil them just heat the anhydrous IPA solution slowly with a boiling stone and stir until all the MDxx is dissolved. This same procedure can also be applied to all amphetamines to my knowledge. 

Though it's been years since my last wash and the gc/ms testing for isomer ratios is not on my high list of priorities currently. Since my last experience I feel like my neurotransmitter balance is nearly back to normal but I want to purchase some piracetam and consume it for a week or two prior to the experience of washed and unwashed MDMA.


----------



## anon65535

I didn't use a boiling stone because I wasn't using a boiling flask and the glass wasn't completely smooth. Superheating the solvents wasn't something that concerned me. I was using self-made anhydrous solvents, but I'm sure there was still some water in there, just the nature of the game. The material didn't completely dissolve because I had reached supersaturation and would've needed to add more solvent in order to get the rest dissolved. Out of the 28 grams, there was only maybe half a gram that was not dissolved. That didn't bother me. 

There's no reason that I know of why you would need to heat the solvents slowly. They need to be hot in order to dissolve the MD. The speed at which you heat shouldn't matter, and I certainly wasn't doing it with an open flame. You're not going to destroy the compound by putting them in boiling acetone and IPA. I get them boiling, remove from heat, add MD, stir, heat and stir until all or most is dissolved. And I noticed no difference in potency. In fact, as I said, the potency seemed to increase and the product was more enjoyable.

If anyone wants some pics, I'll take em.


----------



## scatterday

Images would be much appreciated. Your reagents for washing MDMA should not boil. That's what a boiling stone is used for to prevent them from superheating and/or boiling.

Heating them up fast or slow doesn't matter but cooling them down slower is the important point I was trying to reference. 

The slower they cool the larger the crystals and the purer the product is. I reduce heat gradually on my heating element them put it on the heater. Then transfer to a freezer.

By placing them in a freezer immediately you don't give the reagents, product and impurity time to separate properly.

Regardless of that though some images would be nice.


----------



## anon65535

Well they boiled, I wasn't too worried. I didn't keep them on a roaring boil, I kept removing it from the heating element to stir manually and and cool it. However, I did cool it down as slowly as possible. What I didn't want to do was crash it out of the solution too quickly to avoid the contaminants crashing out with the MD. So what I did was keep it on the heating element with it off until it got to room temp, put it in the fridge and then in the freezer for 24h. After that I filtered it.

I'll get some pics of the before and after.


----------



## scatterday

anon65535 said:


> Well they boiled, I wasn't too worried. I didn't keep them on a roaring boil, I kept removing it from the heating element to stir manually and and cool it. However, I did cool it down as slowly as possible. What I didn't want to do was crash it out of the solution too quickly to avoid the contaminants crashing out with the MD. So what I did was keep it on the heating element with it off until it got to room temp, put it in the fridge and then in the freezer for 24h. After that I filtered it.
> 
> I'll get some pics of the before and after.



Sounds about right, For a ghetto method of washing your MDMA in anhydrous IPA you can use a matchstick for future reference with the red phosphorous bit on the end broken off and the wooden bit in the water. That's what I did and my solvents didn't boil even at full heat. Which also prevents your MDMA from breaking down due to the superheating of the solvents.

Never boil with acetone only pour the cold acetone over your *unbleached* coffee filter with mdma crystals unless you're performing a duel solvent recrystalization which is a little more complex. They should be brown in colour if they're unbleached.

Like a paper cardboard type material and you should be able to see fibres within the filter if it's unbleached.


----------



## Glubrahnum

anon65535 said:


> I washed twice with 75:25 boiling Acetone:IPA.


This purification mixture does not make sense because 3,4-MDMA·HCl is not soluble in anhydrous Acetone but it is soluble in IPA.


----------



## anon65535

Glubrahnum said:


> This purification mixture does not make sense because 3,4-MDMA·HCl is not soluble in anhydrous Acetone but it is soluble in IPA.



That's not exactly true. MDMA is more soluble in hot acetone. It is not soluble in cold acetone. Mixing 75:25 hot acetone and hot IPA gives good solubility for the crushed MDMA. Plus as I wrote about 10 pages back, with the different possible contaminants, some are soluble in acetone, others in alcohols. I think the best combination would be a triple solvent wash with acetone, methanol and ethanol but I stay far away from methanol. My feeling was getting out possible contaminants from the PMK glycidate.

I was very very happy with the results and I even grew some clear shards with the product afterwards just for fun, evaporating from 0ppm h2o. Though that was just for show, not really for use. When you go from dark brown to clear, you know you've done well.  Eventually I'd love to do a distallation of freebase, I had put up a TEK about 10 pages ago but alas not at this time. That would be guaranteed to get the most pure product.

Will put up pictures tonight.


----------



## scatterday

anon65535 said:


> That's not exactly true. MDMA is more soluble in hot acetone. It is not soluble in cold acetone. Mixing 75:25 hot acetone and hot IPA gives good solubility for the crushed MDMA. Plus as I wrote about 10 pages back, with the different possible contaminants, some are soluble in acetone, others in alcohols. I think the best combination would be a triple solvent wash with acetone, methanol and ethanol but I stay far away from methanol. My feeling was getting out possible contaminants from the PMK glycidate.
> 
> I was very very happy with the results and I even grew some clear shards with the product afterwards just for fun, evaporating from 0ppm h2o. Though that was just for show, not really for use. When you go from dark brown to clear, you know you've done well.  Eventually I'd love to do a distallation of freebase, I had put up a TEK about 10 pages ago but alas not at this time. That would be guaranteed to get the most pure product.
> 
> Will put up pictures tonight.



Once I get around to my washes I'll do a youtube guide to demonstrate a triple anhydrous acetone solvent wash but it won't have MDMA in the title because they have been cracking down on drug related videos lately. Especially backyard chemistry.

Followed by a recrystalization in anhydrous IPA.

You'll be able to see right through the crystals they'll be so clear.

Almost like the crystal meth down this way but even more clearer. For harm reduction purposes I don't go near any of it, Seen to many friends and heard too many stories of people going down the wrong path and seeing friends become addicted and change who they once were.

I really despise meth and it's users.

Some with some MDMA recreationally once or twice a year is fine to give you the energetic feelings I miss but supposedly according to an MDMA chemist I spoke to years ago he mentioned it had to be amphetamine sulphate not meth.

Though pills circulating in my area in the 2000's era contained meth on our reagent kits and they were fantastic. I feel like the amphetamine may potentiate the MDMA because my last roll I smoked meth from a glass pipe and was rolling hard with so much energy I could have ran a marathon.

We used to get these things called speed rushes where waves of energy would flow through your body it was absolutely beautiful to experience.

You see and hear about all colors of MDMA but unless it's crystal clear it's not pure.

I'm sure in my next wash I can just about get it pharma pure.

Might even go a little overboard with a triple anhydrous acetone wash followed by an IPA recrystalization once the crystals have formed then a duel solvent recrystalization.


----------



## scatterday

indigoaura said:


> Scatterday - I want to send your chemist a sample. Is that possible?



Yes that could possibly be arranged depending on your location and customs. He was only willing to test MDMA very few times he said but he's able to provide quantitative information which I should be able to provide with my pharma washed pure MDMA and then we can take a look at the isomer ratios because he has the equipment to do so.

He tested the xanax tablet for me and said by Wednesday he should have quantitative results for me because he needs to source a sample of alprazolam at a certain quantity to give me the quantitative information. It came back as alprazolam only and he claims there are no heavy metals in the tablet which I can be harmed by.

There should be roughly 2mg per pill though he was saying by the looks of the results.

Sorry I missed this request.

The tests aren't cheap but he's willing to negotiate pricing if I become a regular customer for him and send in samples regularly.

I had to pay 190aud for the test but the benefit we have with this laboratory is we get quantitative information and isomer ratios unlike edata who is forbidden to publish this information.

It would be best to contact him via email but I would like to send my samples in a month or two first before you send in yours. What he said to me was "I don't want pills showing up at my po box if that's understandable" and I agreed. 

Currently this is my only valuable and reliable contact in Australia otherwise it would have been sent to edata.

I'd much rather perform these tests locally for a comprehensive breakdown of the substances I send him in terms of isomer ratios and quantitative information.


----------



## Holly.3

MDMA in the crystalline form, when tasted, what should it taste like? Should have a bit of a salty taste? Should it be slightly off-white to kind of a pale Light tan color?


----------



## scatterday

MDMA in crystaline form should never be taste tested and always reagent/lab tested. As above if cleaned correctly it should be crystal clear, The darker the MDMA the more impurities are trapped inside.

I've heard of all sorts of strange MDMA colours which include red and purple. It's all just a gimmick. If your MDMA is dark and not a champagne colour the chemist was lazy during the final parts of the purification in it's synthesis. Even champagne coloured MDMA is a result of a lazy chemist.

There is no other way of identifying your substance. Please identify correctly. Test kits can be purchased via the advertisement at the top of http://www.pillreports.net. It's where I buy mine from.

It should taste chemically bitter, That's the only way to desribe it and it should have a feint aniseed/root beer/licorice smell.


----------



## anon65535

Okay here are the pictures. No flash used on any pictures. First one is a sample of the original product, other three are the cleaned product.


----------



## scatterday

Thanks for the photo's the washed product looks much better, Has all the solvent completely evaporated off it or does it still have a solvent smell?

It looks a little moist in the first washed image.

Your initial rocks looks disgusting in terms of colour, They're so dark and brown. Who knows what you would have washed out in that process that could have been extremely neurotoxic and harmful for you. I'd say most likely by-products from the synthesis.

Too many lazy scumbag chemists these days and not enough good ones out there.


----------



## userlee5267

anon65535 said:


> Okay here are the pictures. No flash used on any pictures. First one is a sample of the original product, other three are the cleaned product.




are the pics still visible?  i cant seem to see them lol


----------



## userlee5267

the price of mdma as gone up in the uk... *<<edited out>>* but from what i can see and hear is that its the mongy dutch mdma mostly... so it doesnt seem to have gone any cheaper here


----------



## anon65535

scatterday said:


> Thanks for the photo's the washed product looks much better, Has all the solvent completely evaporated off it or does it still have a solvent smell?
> 
> It looks a little moist in the first washed image.
> 
> Your initial rocks looks disgusting in terms of colour, They're so dark and brown. Who knows what you would have washed out in that process that could have been extremely neurotoxic and harmful for you. I'd say most likely by-products from the synthesis.
> 
> Too many lazy scumbag chemists these days and not enough good ones out there.



No solvent smell at all and it's not moist, just how it looks on camera. The original as I described had a vaguely chemical smell. Sort of sweet but with some weirdness with it. I found the small hard to place, but it was not the normal anise/sass/root beer smell. it was sort of like that, but with a chemical tinge to it. Very strange.  The cleaned compound has no smell. Also as noted, the vast majority of it dissolved in the hot anhydrous solvents and it was slowly crashed out of the solution as it cooled. The crystals were crushed extremely finely before cleaning and afterwards, it had a different look and a slightly fluffier texture. It was less rock salt like, and more floury (but definitely not a flour like consistency). It was in that bag so there was some compression going on probably leading to what you see. It's a fine powder.

The trip report speaks for itself IMO. Whatever was causing the brown color and smell has been removed and now I have a white/off-white powder. I see no reason to recrystallize as you crush it when you take it anyway.  I think that's done mostly for dealers which I am not. But as I said as well, I did recrystallize a small portion, like a gram in 0ppm H2O for fun and ended up with small clear shards. I couldn't get anything bigger than about .2g though and that was with me evaporating it SLOWLY. Growing racemic crystals is not too easy. They ended up in a rhomboid shape mostly and fairly small. The biggest was 0.2g, the rest were small and very fragile--quite easy to break. IMO not worth it, just fun for show.

I will agree, definitely a lot of laziness in the chemistry department. It would behoove them to distill the freebase to end up with as pure of a product as possible, but that takes time and money to do so I guess it's just not worth it. I actually blame the dark markets for this. Those markets were a race to the bottom for prices and quality suffered since the majority of people neither know nor care. I'd venture to guess my stuff is fairly pure now. Not 100%, but I'd say it's safely in the 90s and has a good effect on the user. Very potent, fast acting and has the right qualities. I'm very happy with the result whereas I was not prior to cleaning. Prior to cleaning, the stuff left effects to be desired. Not sure what I'm gonna do with the ~3-5g of brown powder I have. Maybe I'll take a picture of that and show you guys. I ain't putting it in my body, that's for damn sure.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea that first pic is a great example of some of the garbage people sell out there, I'd be afraid to consume that.  Definitely looks better after the cleanup.

So I went to a small festival last weekend and saw the love I've been missing at most events as of lately.  Also should be noted there was a lot of mdma and MDA floating around that had that safrole smell to it.

It got me thinking though, why is MDA so common in areas of the world that still have safrole mdma yet MDA is really rare in places like certain parts of Europe where MDA is actually more expensive.

Around here MDA is almost more common and if it's sass it's usually fairly cheap.  Sass which as most know is typically slang for impure MDA, can vary a lot in purity.  I obtained a few .1g's out of curiosity for rather cheap and it was brown yet very obvious crystals that were fused together with the residual oils.  I've heard that some people prefer the impure sass over pure MDA as it is stronger.  Haven't enough experience to know.

I believe we should look into why MDA is so rare in parts where the mongy mdma epidemic to better narrow down which synth route is problematic.

-GC


----------



## scatterday

G_Chem said:


> Yea that first pic is a great example of some of the garbage people sell out there, I'd be afraid to consume that.  Definitely looks better after the cleanup.
> 
> So I went to a small festival last weekend and saw the love I've been missing at most events as of lately.  Also should be noted there was a lot of mdma and MDA floating around that had that safrole smell to it.
> 
> It got me thinking though, why is MDA so common in areas of the world that still have safrole mdma yet MDA is really rare in places like certain parts of Europe where MDA is actually more expensive.
> 
> Around here MDA is almost more common and if it's sass it's usually fairly cheap.  Sass which as most know is typically slang for impure MDA, can vary a lot in purity.  I obtained a few .1g's out of curiosity for rather cheap and it was brown yet very obvious crystals that were fused together with the residual oils.  I've heard that some people prefer the impure sass over pure MDA as it is stronger.  Haven't enough experience to know.
> 
> I believe we should look into why MDA is so rare in parts where the mongy mdma epidemic to better narrow down which synth route is problematic.
> 
> -GC



If I recall correctly I remember reading up somewhere that MDMA synthesis and MDA synthesis are very similar and easy. Though as far as I know I have no extra information that's all I can provide. The synthesis are very similar.

Perhaps with piperanol MDA is more difficult to synthesise but with MDMA it's still relatively easy?


----------



## anon65535

Plenty of canadian MDA. Strong shit, too. I have some really beautiful clear MDA. MDA gives me a horrible hangover though. Takes me a full day minimum to get over it and I still feel it the day after that. Definitely fun, but not to be taken lightly. It's a solid 6-8 hour experience for me. Really big body buzz, can be rough on the come up. I generally need to smoke a little on the come up or I run the risk of vomiting. Shit can really take you by surprise, even at 90-100mg. It's an interesting drug. Through 4 hours, it's pretty similar to MDMA, almost indistinguishable from it in my view. If anything, the only way you may be able to tell is that it has a stronger body buzz. But after four hours, when MDMA starts to fade, MDA is still there. You definitely feel it for another good 3 hours and then it fades but for those 3 years you get some trippiness while the MDMA feeling fades.

Strange stuff, but not unpleasant in any sense. The issue I always have with MDA is the hangover, it really gets you bad where MDMA doesn't give me anything close to that.


----------



## Glubrahnum

anon65535 said:


> Mixing 75:25 hot acetone and hot IPA gives good solubility for the crushed MDMA.


...but good solubility of the drug and its contaminants does not facilitate purification !
To be most effective at purification, the solvent must *differentiate between* the desired substance and its contaminants.

If only pure Acetone and IPA are available and they are to be used to purify a contaminated 3,4-MDMA·HCl most effectively, then the impure dry powder should be:
1) Washed with cold Acetone first, and the resulting liquid should be discarded. 
2) The remaining solids should be press-dried and dissolved in IPA. All of the solids that do not dissolve in IPA should be discarded (by sedimentation/decantation or filtration).
3) The purified 3,4-MDMA·HCl should be recovered from the IPA solution by evaporation and recrystallization.

Step 1 removes all the impurities that are soluble in Acetone and Step 2 removes all the impurities that are insoluble in IPA.
Mixing Acetone and IPA does not make sense for purification because achieving maximum solubility of the desired drug AND its contaminants is *not the goal* of purification.

_P.S.
Pure acetone is hard to obtain.  Drying commercial Acetone with a desiccant or molecular sieves might be easier than buying it.
If the Acetone is not dry, it will adversely affect the yield of the purification._


----------



## G_Chem

Yes the products I take are likely almost always Canadian in origin.

I know what you mean on MDA, even in a combo the threat of puking is high and following days definitely more rough but that experience is lovely.  A lot of my best rolls have had MDA mixed in, I actually get more empathy of MDA but I think it depends on the batch.

With that said it's not a party drug for me, it's a hang with close ones by a fire while chatting shit type of drug for me.  I rarely get visual effects but when I do they are wild, like delusional yet cool.  It just feels like a more intense yet personal empathogen typically for me.

And depending on the route they can be similar in ease to make (mdma vs MDA) but each route is different.  Some can only make one or the other, some can do one better than the other.

For instance the leuckart reaction commonly used back in the early 90's was better for MDA than MDMA in terms of yield and purity.  Not a huge difference in comparison to the al/hg amalgam which has an absolutely shit yield for MDA yet great for mdma.  I do think MDA can be made via piperanol from my memory but there's got to be a reason via the intermediate PMK-glycidate that MDA isn't as common.

-GC


----------



## scatterday

Any liquids I consume pre consumption of MDxx substances usually make me nauseous so I tend to go for a walk and hold off on the liquids until the drug is in full effect that way I can avoid the nausea. Tends to help with the comeup anxiety too and the butterfly's in the stomach.

Though in saying that the MDMA I was consuming pre 2008 before the safrole treaty was signed I experienced no symptoms of nausea of vomiting. 

Perhaps it was as a result of smoking cannabis prior to the consumption of our pills or just the synthesis and by-products of the piperanol mongy MDMA are now causing the nausea.

I experience really blurry vision on the MDMA these days and have difficulty urinating for some reason, Never used to experience these symptoms prior to the treaty and the worldwide MDMA shortage before piperanol was the new precursor.

Safrole would have to be affecting the isomer ratios as the chemist says because as it is a organic derived precursor and rather not a synthetic precursor like piperanol I don't get the natural feeling of empathy and euphoria anymore. Music doesn't seem as appealing either which is one major difference I've noticed.

It all feels like it's a forced high for some reason.

Music always would send a warm tingle throughout my body and head rubs felt fantastic. They would send warm rushes of bliss through my body. 

I don't experience that anymore either, Always flicking through songs to find one but back in the day I was content listening to the same song all night and it would sound incredible.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Thing is it doesn't HAVE to be the isomers.  It could be, but it could also be impurities, polymorphs, we just don't really know..  People thought an R-heavy batch would be the culprit for years, Glubra showed that at least at (62% R, 37% S) the effects seemed perfectly satisfactory.  Maybe if it reached 90/10 R/S then it'd start to get problematic but I'm still unsure if it's causing what we're seeing.

Also remember just because the guy is lab chemist doesn't mean he knows all.  We wouldn't even be here discussing this if lab analysts were experts in everything, as they'd of caught the problem long ago.

I think we need to keep an open mind until we see more evidence.

We've got lots of varied evidence that could make any of the three variables I listed above a real possibility.

As for mdma and vomiting, I get it with mdma too and I feel it's always been an issue for me.  Although come to think of it, times where I've taken safrole mdma it's happened a lot less or not at all.  You may be on to something... I'll have to scour my memory banks more on that.

This past weekend I took mdma twice (I do this every year, 4 of my 6 yearly experiences are usually two dayers at festivals, as long as you are very healthy and take antioxidants with reasonable doses it's safe I feel).  One night I took mdma that seemed derived from safrole as it had the exact safrole smell (I know it well.)  The other stuff seemed like highly pure rhomboid crystals with no smell, their taste was devoid of safrole too.

I found the experience with the safrole mdma which also appeared less pure to be better.  I also did not vomit from the safrole mdma but did at the comeup of the other rhomboidal crystals.  The safrole mdma has been consistently long lasting with high level of empathy and a great comeup where I can't stop saying to myself "I'm blowing up so hard right now maaan..  I texted all my family members at midnight telling them how much they meant to me haha typical mdma stuff.

Now there were a lot of factors that could skew those results, other drugs, timing of each experience, etc... But I've taken that safrole mdma many times before and I love it so much.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

God it kills me to look at all the horrible threads in this forum.  While I know some don't agree with me I do feel this issue is more isolated to areas that also complain about mongy MDMA.

This forum has a higher percentage of European users and also most of the horror stories, yet when you look at Reddit which is mainly Americans (stupid Americans at that lol, that forum kills me too..) there is MUCH less talk of LTC and much more talk about all the positives people seem to be missing here.  Add on to that the fact there's been cases where multiple people have gotten LTC from the same batch/experience and it's very obvious this is an issue with the product itself.

I think it's time we all finally realize that the US (by proximity to Canada) may actually have the better MDMA.  I know it's a hard pill for some to swallow (as it seems there's a rivalry there) but the evidence don't lie.

-GC


----------



## Holly.3

anon65535 said:


> Okay here are the pictures. No flash used on any pictures. First one is a sample of the original product, other three are the cleaned product.



What are these pictures of? MDMA in crystalline form? I've never had MDMA in crystalline form nor have seen it in person. Just in pictures and on TV. I'm sure you guys have seen the National Geographic show, Drugs Inc., when they show pure MDMA, it always looks like it has a slight off white to a light tan color, or a "champagne" color as mentioned in an earlier post Close to what the first picture looks like. I saw some stuff that was close to that color in the first picture, more on the lighter shade of tan then the darker spots on the first picture product. 

My friend had a little tiny Superman ziplock which looked like coarse table salt butt of an off white to a light tan color. It was roughly the consistency of table salt to a slightly courser form of table salt. Where she had it stashed, there was a little baggie of this crystallized salty looking product and another baggie that had 5 Playboy pink bunny ecstasy pills. I know for certain that the ecstasy pills were from around 2005 to 2007 and I'm sure it's safe to assume that the little Superman baggie with the light tan crystallized salt looking product was around the same age. The crystalline product when tasted had a salty taste. Just wondering what the salty tasting tan crystalline product was? From what I remember, it wasn't soft to the touch. Not sure if it could have been chopped up with a razor blade and turned into a fine powder. It really reminded me of a slightly course form of salt except for it was off white to a light tan color. And the fact that it was in a small Superman ziplock makes me think it was some kind of drug, but I don't know what it could have been. 

I know from what she said, the 5 pink Playboy ecstasy pills that she had gotten between 2005 and 2007 that she still had where the best out of all the ecstasy pills she had taken as an occasional once or twice every one to two months user that she had ever done. She said today she could sell them for twice as much per pill then what the going rate is now. And for me, between that same time span I had done ecstasy occasionally 12 to14 times. And every time I had a pink Playboy bunny, I always found it to be of a much better quality with a cleaner high and  a less harsh  come down , and was what I usually looked for when I was wanting to buy a pill or two.

 The tan or "champagne" color, salty looking product in the Superman baggie looks like what I've seen on the TV show Drugs Inc. When they're showing pure MDMA but from what someone had already said in an earlier post, it shouldn't have a salty taste. So I kind of wonder what would fit this description with a salty taste, not as intense as normal table salt would taste when touched it to the tongue, but a noticeably saltish taste.

 I don't know of any drug that would be in a crystalline form the consistency of table salt that would be of this color and have a saltyish taste.

 Back in 2005 through 2007 could you get pure MDMA in a crystalline form the way you can get it today where it's usually contained and purchased in a small clear pill like capsule that can be separated to get the MDMA out of it


----------



## G_Chem

^^^The salty taste that can sometimes accompany MDMA is an artifact of the process.  Typically it happens when there's too much excess sodium hydroxide reacting with HCl when they are cleaning up during an A/B.  This leaves salt as a byproduct.  And since salt is both crystalline as well as adds weight, lazy chemists would rather leave it.

I noticed this taste more in my early days of taking crystal mdma after it switched from pills to pure around 2009-10 in my area.  But haven't tasted salty in a long time and if I did I'd give it back cuz that's an obvious impurity.

My guess is because you believe it's from a while back that it's because chemists were still learning their trade back then and it was kind of a newer thing to make crystals instead of pills. Also again it's more tempting to leave the weight in a product that is sold by weight VS a pill which is sold by unit.  Since the mid 00's things have changed, and while some chemists have decided to do a shittier job others have honed their trade.

Also the "pure mdma" they show on nat geo is just like any "pure mdma" any of us buy, it should never be a champagne color if it's truly pure.

Pure anhydrous MDMA forms crystal clear rhomboidal crystals that are typically 200mg at their biggest.  Pure hydrated MDMA creates crystal clear parallelogram type crystals, these seem to be able to be created a bit bigger but aren't as commonly encountered, unsure of what they max out at.  There should also be no detectable smell.

It doesn't mean you have bad product if it doesn't meet those requirements but that's what it looks like when it's as pure as it gets.

-GC


----------



## scatterday

G_Chem said:


> Pure anhydrous MDMA forms crystal clear rhomboidal crystals that are typically 200mg at their biggest.  Pure hydrated MDMA creates crystal clear parallelogram type crystals, these seem to be able to be created a bit bigger but aren't as commonly encountered, unsure of what they max out at.  There should also be no detectable smell.
> 
> -GC



I can form large crystals and have previously by slow heat reduction via the hotplate of my solution of anhydrous IPA followed by placing my beaker on a heater then settling the solution to room temperature followed by a slow cooling method with cling film and a rubber band over the top to stop H20 from entering the solution.

As I was saying slow/gradual reduction of temperature leads to bigger and larger/purer crystals. Providing you have enough product you could form a golf ball sized crystal if you don't rush the precipitation via instantaneous cooling.

I'll upload some pictures when I perform my wash to show you. I don't have much left but I'll do my best to form one large crystal.

If anyone is thinking I am by no means an MDMA chemist I just read an amateur guide online and followed the instructions that lead to purer crystals and an amazing experience.

Believe it or not I'm an early college drop out and have limited knowledge in chemistry but it's always been something that's interested me. We were never taught chemistry in college here in Australia. Either that or I didn't select it as a subject.

Weird education system I know..


----------



## SympatheticMD

I always come in after several pages of serious chemical analysis has been added.

I am with G-Chem that the isomer ratios are not the real kickers in the change in the quality of what is being sold lately.  I read a little bit about Shulgin and his wife, and I KNOW I read they experimented with different ratios and purities of the isomers themselves, and described the differences.  They also described two different methods of synthesizing it – one starting with safrole and one starting with piperonal.  So I don’t think piperonal it the culprit either (and maybe you guys are saying this, but I am not a chemist and it gets confusing).

From what I gathered researching drug confiscation reports is that labs are moving to ways that emphasize mass production, and that things like piperonal are hard to come by as well. So the mass products are experiments in using other precursors and/or shortcuts that sully the end product.  By my thinking, the washing you guys are doing that is successfully making a cleaner and more enjoyable product is removing whatever impurities these new routes of synthesis are making.  The…God, what do you call them… the Feds?  Whatever… the legal forces that be chase the precursors and find ways to tag and ID the products that are made in these quickly built and demolished labs that put out thousands of pills and then disappear off the map.  I just think the stuff people buy online or from particular geographical regions is likely to be sourced from these mass producers;and other consumers are lucky enough to have access to smaller labs that focus on quality product rather than high level criminal profit.

Scatterday, is you chemist going to analyze the “wash product” … or can that even be done to evaluate what might be tainting the mass produced producte and/or identify what was used as a precursor?  Or more importantly, how you might be able to tell quickly if these contaminants were in something you purchased?  Also, I offered to help with the payment to support the research, although I don’t know how to figure that out.

Lastly, Scatterday and Indigoaura, you guys were talking about B12 levels earlier.  I have 3-4x the normal limit of B12 in my blood, and every doctor I see tells me I’m taking supplements.  I’m a doctor, and I’m not taking supplements.  There is some research in Europe that looks into this phenomenon (unfortunately they correlate it as an early diagnostic sign for several types of cancer).  After much research, my theory is there are multiple genetic variants for the absorption and metabolism of B12.  IndigoAura is right about taking the methylated version.  I actually starting doing IM shots (you can find these in weight loss clinics or through your doctor).  Ironically, injecting the cyanocobalamin IM ended up making my B12 levels (and the proper metabolic excrements) go DOWN.  

All I’m saying is that I know a lot of people with (low level) anxiety, and most of them have high B12 levels with their doctors telling them that it is due to supplements. And all of these people stopped taking B12, felt shitty, and started taking it again and love it (me included). Try getting a B21 shot somewhere and see what it does.  An PS, this advice obviously does not come from any type of scientific study and is advice from someone who likes to experiment with things at some risk to herself


----------



## anon65535

Glub, I get what you're saying and it's possible that that 5g I have in brown powder is because of the IPA dissolving the M with the other leftover contaminants. However Borax's Tek does call for a hot anhydrous acetone wash. The potential contaminants from the glycidate including acrylamide, glycidic acid and others are either soluble in alcohols or acetone. With a hot acetone wash, if you can get the majority to dissolve you get the highest potential to clean all the material. When cooling it down, the MDMA crashes out of the solution and those contaminants stay in the solution. Filter those out and you have a good cleaning. I suppose with the IPA you have a point as it won't really clean them. But I'd almost rather lose a couple grams with the dirty stuff and be left with a really nice product than be left with it. I'll try again with just anhydrous acetone, hot wash and post results. 

I guess one question I have is, with an IPA recrystallization, if the contaminant is soluble in IPA, can you re-x and still manage to keep the contaminant out it the crystal formation? Would you be best off trying to re-x as slowly as possible and then when there's only a little bit if liquid left to discard it?


----------



## scatterday

SympatheticMD said:


> Scatterday, is your chemist going to analyse the “washed product” … or can that even be done to evaluate what might be tainting the mass produced product and/or identify what was used as a precursor?  Or more importantly, how you might be able to tell quickly if these contaminants were in something you purchased?  Also, I offered to help with the payment to support the research, although I don’t know how to figure that out.
> 
> Lastly, Scatterday and Indigoaura, you guys were talking about B12 levels earlier.  I have 3-4x the normal limit of B12 in my blood, and every doctor I see tells me I’m taking supplements.  I’m a doctor, and I’m not taking supplements.  There is some research in Europe that looks into this phenomenon (unfortunately they correlate it as an early diagnostic sign for several types of cancer).  After much research, my theory is there are multiple genetic variants for the absorption and metabolism of B12.  IndigoAura is right about taking the methylated version.  I actually starting doing IM shots (you can find these in weight loss clinics or through your doctor).  Ironically, injecting the cyanocobalamin IM ended up making my B12 levels (and the proper metabolic excrements) go DOWN.
> 
> All I’m saying is that I know a lot of people with (low level) anxiety, and most of them have high B12 levels with their doctors telling them that it is due to supplements. And all of these people stopped taking B12, felt shitty, and started taking it again and love it (me included). Try getting a B21 shot somewhere and see what it does.  An PS, this advice obviously does not come from any type of scientific study and is advice from someone who likes to experiment with things at some risk to herself



So I clarified subjects the chemist explained to me today when I called regarding my alprazolam quantitative analysis of the pill I sent in which the results were meant to be in today but it's been backtracked, He's ordered pure alprazolam to identify how much was present within the xanax bar I sent to him. He doesn't mind pharmaceutical drugs being sent but in terms of products like MDMA he doesn't want them to show up regularly. He mentioned to state in an email they were found randomly somewhere and I'd like to identify the sample in terms of my own/family's safety.

If there are any adulterants present within the unwashed sample I'm sure the gc/ms analysis will indicate this along with the isomer ratios pre and post wash even if isomer ratios aren't relevant (This still isn't eliminated as far as I'm concerned and may be responsible for how MDMA feels these days)

I have a paypal account and would be more than willing to go halves in this research with you, It's expensive and costs me a fortune and any help would be much appreciated by anyone in the community. 

I would be more than happy to publish my results for the alprazolam (xanax bar) if I can get approval from him. Whenever I open the file it takes me to an internet browser then when I press download to edit the file it downloads the exact same file. If he allows I will be removing some of the information that may be traced back to his laboratory so he doesn't loose his position as an employee there for doing things he shouldn't be. If he allows this (unsure st this point I will edit the document in paint to remove any revealing data from the laboratory for his own protection followed by an exif data removal and uploaded to a tor browser onion image/document uploading server.

I'll call up again today to see what he has to say regarding publishing his results. I don't want to hassle him too much as much as he is a nice guy.

He seems like a really nice gentleman and said if I sent in a washed sample and an unwashed sample I would only be charged for 1 test rather than 2 which is a positive in my books. My last test was 190ish aud. Quantitative analysis for the xanax bar should be in a week or so before it arrives because it's a schedule 8 drug here in Australia.

Getting off this subject now regarding the vitamin B levels and my blood tests they were high because I was taking multi vitamins and have had several blood results since then and everything is back to normal. My doctor recommended to stop taking multi vitamins because you get all the vitamins and minerals you need from food everyday

My mental health issues unfortunately stem from the heavy abuse of cannabis from a young adolescent to the end of my adolescent years.

I've been through some major trauma and cannabis on a growing brain is detrimental. I firmly believe cannabis should not be touched until the brain has stopped developing unless used medicinally which I was not. I was using it recreationally like a fool and believe I have a neurotransmitter imbalance as a result of this now.

Though what you're saying I can see having some credibility and I'm willing to give that a try.

I'm happy enough to be prescribed alprazolam as a long term solution to my mental health issues. I'd rather pass away at 65 living a peaceful life and happy life rather than live to 70 and be traumatised every day of my life due to my mental health issues.


----------



## scatterday

anon65535 said:


> I guess one question I have is, with an IPA recrystallization, if the contaminant is soluble in IPA, can you re-x and still manage to keep the contaminant out it the crystal formation? Would you be best off trying to re-x as slowly as possible and then when there's only a little bit if liquid left to discard it?



This is correct, Refer to my statement a few comments above regarding the precipitation of MDMA crystals in anhydrous IPA.

If your crystals have been cleansed enough they should appear to be clear and see through. I generally waited for a 24 hour period or longer before the crystal has formed.

There was a reason not to crash out the MDMA in a cold solution immediately because it doesn't give the contaminants time to separate from your MDMA and they can be trapped inside. To my knowledge amphetamines only desolve in anhydrous IPA when we're on the subject of purification.

The anhydrous acetone should turn your crystals into a powder which you should then purify and let evaporate followed by your anhydrous IPA wash.

But beware if you have followed this procedure correctly your *clear* crystals will be much stronger and will require far less to achieve a desirable high 100mg or less is advised followed by a re dose if needed. Which leads me to believe purifying and recrystallising your MDMA may alter the isomer ratios by removing impurities and/or by-products from the synthesis.

We won't know until a month or two has passed and I decide to get around to performing this unfortunately I don't have much MDMA left though when I did consume the washed/purified MDMA the experience was extremely therapeutic and felt like the MDMA I'm familiar with.

I'll send in 2 samples each one will consist of 100mg, Washed and unwashed.

Of course this process can be sped up if someone pays for the sample (Not implying anyone should pay for it) because I still have to buy some Epsom salts to dehydrate and add to my acetone solution then filter. You can obtain anhydrous IPA from just about any PC repair place as any H20 present within the IPA can damage the PC components and short them out.

I do have some anhydrous acetone but I don't trust it because it's been years since my last wash and I suspect it's now not anhydrous and would prefer to buy fresh solvents and a proper boiling stone this time instead of using a matchstick to prevent the liquids from super heating.

As I said it's not high on my list on priorities currently because I have a lot going on and am extremely busy with selling car parts.

This is why I placed cling film and a rubber band over my solution as the MDMA was crashing out to prevent any H20 from entering the solution and loosing product.


----------



## G_Chem

@scatterday-  Indeed large crystals of MDMA can be made, but did they appear to be anhydrous or hydrated? (Anhydrous mdma forms orthorhombic crystals, hydrated forms parallelogram crystals that look like diamond shaped.)

I've seen giant hydrated mdma crystals but very few large anhydrous crystals.  Not to say it can't happen but just what I've seen based on my research as well as in person.

Also I may be able to help with funding here soon (month or two) if need be..  Moneys flowing again and I'd love to see more results on isomer ratios as well as any impurities found.

As for isomers changing after washes, that is unlikely to happen unless one isomer is getting left behind during cleaning (which is possible.)  I do think this is possible but unlikely when thinking that lots of impurities are being cleaned out as well, the impurities are likely the variable in that equation.

@anon- I'd suggest against using hot acetone for cleaning mdma.  Amines react with ketones to form Imines from my poor memory.  While this doesn't seem to be a huge issue with MDMA, it's still possible and likely some mdma is being converted.

I'd stick with a cold acetone wash followed by the re-X in anhydrous IPA.  This is less likely to alter the molecule.

@MD- Indeed piperanol has been known about and used since the beginning but it didn't really get popular until the early 2000's from what I can see.  And I'd even wager that it wasn't the most popular precursor until the late 2000's.

With that said you may be right.  I'm positive I've taken mdma synth'ed from piperanol and it did what it was supposed to do.  Glubra's friends took mdma from piperanol and it was satisfactory.  I think pretty pure product no matter the route will be good, but it's when the chemists get lazy that things start to vary a bit.

Which again brings us back to impurities..  If isomers were to blame we'd be feeling the problems even with highly pure product but I can't say I've seen too many people bitch when they take really clean mdma (whether it smells like safrole or not.)


I grabbed myself a few .1g of impure MDA and plan on cleaning up some of it for a comparison.  It'll be a long time before I try both the before and after but it's in the works.

Also I'm planning on starting a new thread once I've written a good starting point about different synth routes and "bioassay" of the product from that route.  I think it'd be beneficial to compile all experience reports (bioassay reports) that also report the route that was used to make the mdma.

That way we can start to get a good understanding of which routes produce what type of product.  Reports like these are hard to find but they are out there, primarily in the old Hive archive.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Quick comment on the vomiting...I used to vomit on the old stuff that smelled like safrole, but do not vomit at all on the new stuff. So, I guess I am the opposite of some of you.

MD - Yes, the high B12 can be a sign that it is not being used properly/absorbed properly by the body. Yes, this can be due to mutations which make it difficult to process and use the cyanocobalamin, or other defects in the methylation cycle that prevent things from running smoothly. MTHFR mutations are some of the more well known mutations, but there are others as well. For some people who show "high" levels on tests, supplementing with methylated B vitamins can actually make the high levels go down rather than go up. Weird, right?


----------



## scatterday

G_Chem said:


> @scatterday-  Indeed large crystals of MDMA can be made, but did they appear to be anhydrous or hydrated? (Anhydrous mdma forms orthorhombic crystals, hydrated forms parallelogram crystals that look like diamond shaped.)
> 
> I've seen giant hydrated mdma crystals but very few large anhydrous crystals.  Not to say it can't happen but just what I've seen based on my research as well as in person.
> 
> Also I may be able to help with funding here soon (month or two) if need be..  Moneys flowing again and I'd love to see more results on isomer ratios as well as any impurities found.
> -GC



It was definitely anhydrous if I recall correctly.

Any help with this research would greatly be appreciated but if you're not financially stable it's not required. Just not sure how we would sort out payment. Perhaps to my paypal account as I mentioned above?

It may just take some time for me to get around to creating a fresh batch of anhydrous acetone and sourcing some more anhydrous IPA.

I'm currently not in the right financial position to be testing anything else for a while. Even if I was it would take at least a week to wash the crystals because of having to remove the H20 from my acetone and another few days after that for the results of both purified and impure MDMA along with postage to the lab.

I have received confirmation from the chemist to also post the graphs and some parts of the information that isn't private such as the lab it was analysed at. So I am able to publish charts for chemical analysis, heavy metal analysis, substance and molecular structure chart and quantitative analysis information.

Though the information we receive back will be extremely crucial in identifying why or if MDMA has changed and why we all suspect it's different now.


----------



## Glubrahnum

I just tested another batch of white powder (not tan) sold as Ecstasy in Amsterdam and the results are:
77% 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate
8% Methamphetamine HCl
0.6% Dibenzylketone
0.003% Methylmercury !
...and Excipients

Obviously, this will not be consumed.

P.S.
Most likely, this would not even pass the Marquis test.


----------



## G_Chem

Glubra, why are you the coolest? Just why.. I need to know man..  Lol.

Well.. Now we've got 2 for 2,3-MDMA.. To be honest that ticks a lot more of the boxes than isomers and as I said before it would explain the high availability of this supposed "mdma" and it's precursor.

What makes you think it wouldn't react the same on Marquis? I think your right but I think it'd still be close enough to fool people.  If I had to guess I'd say it reacts straight to black with maybe a hint of brown like others have complained about..

As said before this would also explain the high dosage as well as lack of empathy/love.  2,3-MDMA has gotta be the most likely if impurities aren't the problem.

I will say, in regards to impurities, that I've seen complaints on product that seemed unlikely to contain impurities.. Which would lead us back to isomers (unlikely), polymorphism (seemingly unlikely too), or 2,3-MDMA (most likely of all in this scenario.)

Great job man, I remember saying I needed more proof on the 2,3-mdma theory and we just got it.  I put off in the back of my head cuz I almost couldn't believe it (as I said before too) but I think I'm finally gonna put all my eggs in one basket here and say... "I think 2,3-MDMA is the reason Dutch mdma sucks!"  Never thought I'd say that but I am.

I think what we have going on right now too is a mixture of things.  We've variation amongst actual 3,4-mdma samples (isomers, impurities, and polymorphism) combined with people who've been using for awhile which does heighten tolerance to the positive effects, this was/is making it hard to pin point any one problem but there's a difference between crap mdma and so-so mdma which we need to remember.

Thanks glubskis, I'm gonna PM ya at some point so keep your eye on the box.

Edit-  Also that mercury leftover may be the cause of the LTC we see.  If not it at least tells us hg/al was used for the amination.

-GC


----------



## anon65535

Wow, 2,3-MDP2P glycidate wtf?!  Where was the first one? I must have missed it.

How was that analyzed Glub?

The MDMA I had that was brown as shown was analyzed by GC/MS as 3,4-MDMA but I'm wondering now if they really could tell the difference via GC/MS whether it was actually 3,4 or not one of the regioisomers.  But the fact that what you saw was actually precursor and not 2,3-MDMA is super weird to me.

What's good to know is that a lot of these contaminants ARE soluble in organic solvents like acetone. Methylmercury (NASTY!) is soluble in acetone so an acetone wash, cold or hot would capture that. Also, a lot of the potential contaminants from the glycidate like glycolic acid, acrylamide and others are soluble in these organic solvents as well. Clearly this step is skipped quite a bit in large batches and it may be leaving potentially very harmful and toxic substances in the end product.

Glub, EC said they would do a full scan as requested like 10 pages back. If I send in two samples, one washed, one unwashed, would you be willing to analyze it?


----------



## G_Chem

I missed the glycidate but that means same as the last sample.  An easier to obtain precursor that apparently is being attempted to be used as is instead of getting MDP2P first..  Two fuck ups going on here.

-GC


----------



## Beenhead

Glubrahnum said:


> I just tested another batch of white powder (not tan) sold as Ecstasy in Amsterdam and the results are:
> 77% 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate
> 8% Methamphetamine HCl
> 0.6% Dibenzylketone
> 0.003% Methylmercury !
> ...and Excipients
> 
> Obviously, this will not be consumed.
> 
> P.S.
> Most likely, this would not even pass the Marquis test.



So let me get this straight. This pill had just the percursor? No 2,3-MDMA?

There were a couple topics I wanted to get in on since my last post. 

MDA purity: I have 2 samples of MDMA one is probably only a couple hundred mg, but man is it beautiful looking. clear crystals that are maybe 20mg each. 
My other sample is also white crystals, just not as clear as the other, though I have a gram of that.
Each are Canadian sourced.

My MDMA is champagne colored, and sourced from an American vendor. But I have no clue if they get it from the dutch or not. Its color looks much better than some of that brown crap I see from Europe (like what we saw in that pic above). Still need to find the time to analyze it. 

My girlfriend from back when I rolled a lot in the early 2000s used to throw up every time she rolled, and often would not enjoy it until she did. I have often felt a bit queasy on the come up, and this was generally an indication that it was good MDMA, as the speedier crap doesnt do that to me. 

G-Chem - 

You think a lot of this is due to 2,3-MDMA being sold as 3,4-MDMA now? It makes a lot of sense. 

But I dont get how the labs are missing it? In the JCS paper in 2006 you see that 2,3-MDMA elutes about a whole minute before 3,4-MDMA. Now, when you look at the fragmentation patterns, they are almost identical save for a small fragment at m/z 91. Since the spectra is not all that helpful, the analyst would see that there is something fishy going on when his MDMA internal standard elutes a whole minute after the unknown does. 

The way the software works for quant is you make a your processing method to pick the peak at a certain elution time for processing, not a certain mass. I think the chemists would have to be exceedingly lazy to miss that.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^I believe that or maybe just the precursor itself being sold as is (as we see here and the analysis before.)

You also hit on my only drawback, how come the labs aren't seeing this... I still can't understand it either.  But..  If Glubra had two samples come to him from one of the places supposedly known for good mdma and both showed the exact same 2,3-MDP2P glycidate I can only assume either something is getting missed or Glubra's analysis is off.  I have faith though that the information he is presenting is correct, in which case these analysis labs are for some reason not catching it.

I'd be willing to bet  2,3-MDP2P glycidate has some activity that could be perceived as enjoyable by some, and the fact it's a solid that resembles mdma makes it hard to distinguish by both user and moron chemist who thinks he just successfully aminated some glycidate in a one pot.

Edit- 1,000th post! We sure do talk a lot lol.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Some excellent work going on here guys, keep it up!

Them pesky Dutch did a similar thing with the UK amphetamine sulphate scene in the late 80s - started producing and exporting on an industrial scale, but with an inferior quality product IMO. Prior to that, I believe the majority of illicit sulphate in the UK was home produced on a small scale - it was the tits...


----------



## G_Chem

^^^I remember reading you talking about that a few years ago in some other thread..  Just curious what was the purity like before it went to shit?

Funny thing my girl is over traveling Europe right now.  She saw a comedian somewhere in UK and during his show the guy was ragging on some girl in the front saying something about .5g of speed then followed up with "shit I need a gram myself to even feel it.."  As someone who can do 10-20mg in a night and be feeling it good, I can only surmise the speed is beyond garbage out there these days.

But thanks FUBAR, is guys like you who wouldn't stop bitchin that motivated this discussion to where it is today 

I think we need to stop looking at the Netherlands like it's the top dog in drug production.  It seems domestic product (no matter whether your from U.K., US, Aus, etc) always beats em.

-GC


----------



## EntheoDjinn

G_Chem said:


> .......... She saw a comedian somewhere in UK ................. I can only surmise the speed is beyond garbage out there these days.



You are absolutely right G_Chem.  Almost all the substances in UK are crap.  There are small local pockets of quality, e.g. psytrance scene, privileged academics with good international contacts, but for the general mass population it's pretty terrible.  Our Prime Minister was on national TV a couple of months ago and on PM's question time in parliament actually said she was determined to keep up the 'war on drugs'.  The government is winning in a sense, people are buying shit and some of the 'bad' or 'stupid' drug users  are dying.

We don't even allow marijuana products to be licensed for medical use - and yet we grow and process the stuff to sell to countries where it is used medically. That's incredibly messed up.

Rant over 

Back on track, a lot of our MDMA comes from the Netherlands.  And yes, it's crap.


----------



## MrRoot

What about Russian MDMA? I know for sure that most of the MDMA going in my area (Eastern FinlandJ comes from Russia as all the bulk selling guys have russian license plates in their cars or talk with an Russian accent.


----------



## Koryeslick@gmail.c

Most mdma is made from mdp2p which would make it racemic


----------



## Beenhead

MrRoot said:


> What about Russian MDMA? I know for sure that most of the MDMA going in my area (Eastern FinlandJ comes from Russia as all the bulk selling guys have russian license plates in their cars or talk with an Russian accent.



 You are rubbing some pretty frightening shoulders!


----------



## G_Chem

@Entheodjinn- That's really sad to see, I felt like you guys were winning there for awhile proving a valuable point with the flourishing RC scene but after that blanket ban things seem bleak.

And I live a few hours away from a store where I can walk in and legally purchase any cannabis product I want.  I can tell you first hand legalization has done nothing but good as far as I can see.  The only downside is certain states becoming havens for homeless drifters, but I don't really even mind that either..  Once legalization takes hold everywhere even that problem won't exist.

@Korey- No it's not..  You don't deserve anymore explanation until you read the 1,000 post thread.


Russians have been known for both mdma production and supply, unfortunately it seems we don't know much about it.  Or at least I don't..

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

anon65535 said:


> Wow, 2,3-MDP2P glycidate wtf?! Where was the first one? I must have missed it.


Approximately a month ago.



anon65535 said:


> How was that analyzed Glub?


Raman spectroscopy and the heavy metals with XRF.



anon65535 said:


> The MDMA I had that was brown as shown was analyzed by GC/MS as 3,4-MDMA but I'm wondering now if they really could tell the difference via GC/MS whether it was actually 3,4 or not one of the regioisomers.  But the fact that what you saw was actually precursor and not 2,3-MDMA is super weird to me.


There is a paper that we've been talking about here not so long ago that shows that such differentiation is very difficult with cheap GC stationary phases.



anon65535 said:


> would you be willing to analyze it?


Yes but how to receive samples without giving out my address?


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> What makes you think it wouldn't react the same on Marquis? I think your right but I think it'd still be close enough to fool people.  If I had to guess I'd say it reacts straight to black with maybe a hint of brown like others have complained about..


Frankly, I have never seen how MDP2P Glycidate reacts to Marquis. Is the methylenedioxy bridge on the aromatic ring enough to give purple/black color, regardless of the rest of the molecule ?
The Methamphetamine would discolor it somewhat, so it could be detectable.



G_Chem said:


> As said before this would also explain the high dosage as well as lack of empathy/love.  2,3-MDMA has gotta be the most likely if impurities aren't the problem.


Possibly, but the jury is still out.



G_Chem said:


> Great job man, I remember saying I needed more proof on the 2,3-mdma theory and we just got it.


The sample was brought to me by the same person that brought the other 2,3,-MDP2P containing sample before, so more testing from a variety of sources must be done to be conclusive.




G_Chem said:


> Edit-  Also that mercury leftover may be the cause of the LTC we see.  If not it at least tells us hg/al was used for the amination.


I think the Hg comes from a bad Methamphetamine synth.
IMO opinion that much of methylated Hg is enough to leave you with not only LTC but PTC....as in "permanent".

Note: Raman spectroscopy is poor at detecting heavy metals because they are too close to the "laser line".  If I did not do the XRF, I would have missed it.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Beenhead said:


> So let me get this straight. This pill had just the percursor? No 2,3-MDMA?


Correct.
It is as if somebody did not even try to make the MDMA and they just mixed up the glycidate with some very bad batch of Methamphetamine.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> ^^^I believe that or maybe just the precursor itself being sold as is (as we see here and the analysis before.)
> I'd be willing to bet  2,3-MDP2P glycidate has some activity that could be perceived as enjoyable by some, and the fact it's a solid that resembles mdma makes it hard to distinguish by both user and moron chemist who thinks he just successfully aminated some glycidate in a one pot.


I think this is a good theory.
IMO nobody tried to alter the 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate in the last sample.  They just added some bad Meth to it to spruce it up ...maybe just to recover the cost of bad precursor purchase.



G_Chem said:


> You also hit on my only drawback, how come the labs aren't seeing this...


Most likely they are focused more on quantity than quality.
Also, I am using Raman and most labs are using GC/MS with cheap columns so they can process many samples inexpensively.


----------



## anon65535

@Glub

I mean analyzing EC's findings. They said they would run the GCMS on full scan mode (someone referenced that or something similar like 10 pages ago). Full gradient? I don't remember exactly what the wording was. But is GCMS enough to see this difference?

No source/supply - even for lab testing - Tranced


----------



## Glubrahnum

Koryeslick@gmail.c said:


> Most mdma is made from mdp2p which would make it racemic


Unless someone found a way to convert chiral MDP2P Glycidate direcly to MDMA, without going through the racemic MDP2P intermediate.

Also, even racemic MDMA can later be separated into its enantiomers by a chiral acid during its "salting" step, ...as we have seen with the MDMA Tartrate I recently analyzed.


----------



## Glubrahnum

anon65535 said:


> @Glub
> I mean analyzing EC's findings. They said they would run the GCMS on full scan mode (someone referenced that or something similar like 10 pages ago). Full gradient? I don't remember exactly what the wording was. But is GCMS enough to see this difference?


That paper we've been writing about should answer your questions about GC/MS performance with 3,4-MDMA isobaries and regioisomers.

Keep it clean - Tranced



EntheoDjinn said:


> The government is winning in a sense, people are buying shit and some of the 'bad' or 'stupid' drug users  are dying.


Just like in the latest Kingsman 2 movie.

It is a really devious and evil strategy...albeit an effective one.  It infuriates me so much that I would be willing to set up shop in a safe country just to get to the bottom of this.


----------



## Glubrahnum

zephyr said:


> Giving out addresses to anyone you don't know mod or not and also passing on samples..... thats great and all but kinda dodgy?


...and it could get this forum raided and shut down for aiding and abetting international drug trafficing.

I prefer to find a country where I can receive and test small samples legally ...even if I have to report them later to the local authorities.


----------



## G_Chem

Ah yes if that was from the same source as before it could very well be a single source problem and not widespread.  If we could analyze some other sourced samples and have similar findings then we may be on to something..

I'm glad you brought up what exactly that much mercury would do to a person as I was curious.  It means without a doubt there's "mdma" out there which can really harm you.

How anyone could mistaken the effects of this concoction for legit mdma is beyond me but I guess piperazines ruled for awhile so anything can happen.

-GC


----------



## SympatheticMD

Ya’ll keep going at it! I’m impressed, yet a little lost. But I don’t mind.  My only contribution is back to some discussion comparing US and Canadian product to markets in Europe and Russia.  When I was looking into the drug enforcement reports (not sure how to phrase this, but the powers that be who chase and bust drug dealers), they were focusing on precursors like*PMK glycidate/PMK glycidide and their salts*.
Does that have any bearing on what Glubra found?  More importantly, it was very clear that the production of these drugs is on a massive scale, and the labs are pushed to set up and clear out within a day – so anything they can do to shorten the process of making the drug, they will do (likely leading to impurities and poor product).  From my brief research, most products in Europe were produced by these mass labs who purchased their precursors from China.  So I tend to agree that stuff found in Canada and the US is more likely to be higher quality (and made from smaller labs)

But maybe you guys know all this anyway.

There is something called Protonmail that encodes messages to keep things somewhat private. You may need some other things like IPVanish and Tail, but I don’t know. I got lazy and quit with the covert stuff. Just thought I’d throw it out there in case anyone was interested.


----------



## Beenhead

Glubrahnum said:


> I think this is a good theory.
> IMO nobody tried to alter the 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate in the last sample.  They just added some bad Meth to it to spruce it up ...maybe just to recover the cost of bad precursor purchase.
> 
> 
> Most likely they are focused more on quantity than quality.
> Also, I am using Raman and most labs are using GC/MS with cheap columns so they can process many samples inexpensively.



Little known fact about GC columns. They are made by I think maybe one or two companies in the whole world. Then They sell it to Thermo or Restek or Agilent who slaps their name on it.

Its also similar for C14 Reversed phase HPLC columns. Brands really dont matter. What does is the particle size, ID and length. 

For anyone not wanting to read journals. With a single quad GCMS, you can get pretty good separation of the different MDMAs, but the MS spectrum will look basically the same. So with out a standard of 3,4-MDMA and 2,3-MDMA to know when each elutes, you will not really know which is which for sure. 

You can get identifications with a ion trap or triple quad that can do tandem mass spec however, so there is that.


----------



## PlayHard

userlee5267 said:


> the price of mdma as gone up in the uk... *<<edited out>>* but from what i can see and hear is that its the mongy dutch mdma mostly... so it doesnt seem to have gone any cheaper here



your refering to the cola/tan like crystal yes? havent seen such since around october time last year - only nice "glass" like. which is far cleaner than any of the cola what was a float.


----------



## G_Chem

I'll admit I know little about gc/ms and analysis of mdma but what are the chances realistically that 2,3-MDP2P glycidate could be mistaken for actual 3,4-mdma? That's the ultimate question right there.

I remember the first 2,3-mdma glycidate analysis was done on trump pills.  I read around on those and found there was supposedly a batch that was straight "meth" but I'm wondering if those were the 2,3-glycidate pills that people just felt as bunk..

Just want to add I've moved to an area where I feel Canadian mdma has even more influence than my past location I called home..  Tonight I saw random people giving massages and hugs beyond anything I've had in 6-8yrs at least.  Many pupils dilated and sweaty folks dancing away..  MDA seems common round here just from the little I've seen so far which is rare in places where mongy mdma is common..  The love was running high tonight, it was beautiful.  It could be one of two things, Canadian mdma is the shit, or my old scene was jaded from all the cocaine flooding in..  Either is real possibility.. But yea real mdxx still exists, just gotta know where to look.

I've also been slowly working on a new thread that will outline some different effects of different synth routes.  That's to come..

Goodnight,
-GC


----------



## scatterday

SympatheticMD said:


> There is something called Protonmail that encodes messages to keep things somewhat private.  You may need some other things like IPVanish and Tail, but I don’t know.  I got lazy and quit with the covert stuff.  Just thought I’d throw it out there in case anyone was interested.



PGP encryption will do the trick if anyone wants to discuss anything privately.

Plenty of youtube tutorials out there. I have my own key so if anyone wants to chat privately feel free to send me a message asking for it.

Though I feel encryption isn't needed for anything in this discussion.

Just figured out how to use encryption as of recently thanks to a handy youtube guide.


----------



## Tranced

Glubrahnum said:


> ...and it could get this forum raided and shut down for aiding and abetting international drug trafficing.
> 
> I prefer to find a country where I can receive and test small samples legally ...even if I have to report them later to the local authorities.



This 100%. Can people keep things clean in here so I don't have to go through editing 5-6 posts? There is a very good reason that we don't allow source/supply on here, and that reason was just specified by Glubrahnum. Bluelight was documented in a big report a year or two back saying that it was a hub of source and supply. That's because people are constantly trying to get away with stuff (on open forums of all places), despite our guidelines (which instruct us to permaban for source/supply). There is no way of skirting this rule - no more, please.



G_Chem said:


> Just want to add I've moved to an area where I feel Canadian mdma has even more influence than my past location I called home..  Tonight I saw random people giving massages and hugs beyond anything I've had in 6-8yrs at least.  Many pupils dilated and sweaty folks dancing away..  MDA seems common round here just from the little I've seen so far which is rare in places where mongy mdma is common..  The love was running high tonight, it was beautiful.  It could be one of two things, Canadian mdma is the shit, or my old scene was jaded from all the cocaine flooding in..  Either is real possibility.. But yea real mdxx still exists, just gotta know where to look.



Cocaine is a real issue with regard to that, especially with older crowds. People tend to stop taking MDMA after a few years of heavy use, so by your mid twenties a lot of the nights/associated crowds start containing a lot more sober/drunk/coked up people.


----------



## Beenhead

G_Chem said:


> I'll admit I know little about gc/ms and analysis of mdma but what are the chances realistically that 2,3-MDP2P glycidate could be mistaken for actual 3,4-mdma? That's the ultimate question right there.
> 
> I remember the first 2,3-mdma glycidate analysis was done on trump pills.  I read around on those and found there was supposedly a batch that was straight "meth" but I'm wondering if those were the 2,3-glycidate pills that people just felt as bunk..
> 
> Just want to add I've moved to an area where I feel Canadian mdma has even more influence than my past location I called home..  Tonight I saw random people giving massages and hugs beyond anything I've had in 6-8yrs at least.  Many pupils dilated and sweaty folks dancing away..  MDA seems common round here just from the little I've seen so far which is rare in places where mongy mdma is common..  The love was running high tonight, it was beautiful.  It could be one of two things, Canadian mdma is the shit, or my old scene was jaded from all the cocaine flooding in..  Either is real possibility.. But yea real mdxx still exists, just gotta know where to look.
> 
> I've also been slowly working on a new thread that will outline some different effects of different synth routes.  That's to come..
> 
> Goodnight,
> -GC



 There is absolutely zero chance the could be mistaken for each other by Mass Spec

Also, yes, coke is the destroyer of dreams, ravager of innocence, and turns fun people into sketched out paranoid weirdos. (I very much dislike coke. And have used copious amounts).


----------



## G_Chem

Yea I think I'm going to agree with you guys, the cocaine is likely the biggest problem.  It's such a weird drug in that you think it makes you more social (and it usually does the first few bumps) but after a few hours almost everyone winds up getting quiet and anti social.  

I've been addicted a few times, last fall it got me by the balls again after nearly 10yrs of "a few times a year.."  By the end of that binge last fall I was hiding inside every weekend just snorting lines and shuffling through activities feeling like nothing was "right."  It becomes the opposite of fun yet that next sweet line of fish scale is all too tempting.  Don't even get me started on crack..

Funny enough, and I planned this (I've learned these medicines over the years) I was able to stop that addiction dead in its tracks with a good roll/trip/flip.  I was using high quality straight off the brick fish scale 2-3 times a week for 3months or so..  Since that experience which allowed me to reset, I've only done it once and felt zero compulsion to get more once it was gone (couldn't put it down while I had it though lol.)

But yea it's garbage, as someone who was born into a world of cocaine.  Someone who's been doing cocaine before I was even born...  I can say hands down it's truly an evil substance.  There's nothing good about it yet when I smell that beautiful smell I get lost in a trance and sniffing just one more weighs heavily on my mind.

Sorry for the rant.  I just hate to see what it's done to the dance/music scene of my home state.  I thought ketamine was bad but I'd rather have people monged out laying around then cocky bad vibes cocaine users.

Your right to some extent there Tranced, it's this reason that I prefer younger crowds (18-24) cuz everyone's hyphy and just the energy off those youngins rolling hard is enough to put a smile on my face and get me going even harder despite me not being on mdma more often than not.  With that said, where I live now cocaine seems less common and the music scene has lots of older folks that don't seem jaded like where I'm from originally.

And thanks beenhead!

So how is this stuff going under the labs nose? Now although both samples which tested with 2,3-MDP2P glycidate were from the same source, my guess is this problem is more wide spread then this one source.  Why you ask? Because both samples tested were substantially different in form, we've got a pressed pill and then we've got loose powder.  On top of that the analysis found different minor components indicating perhaps a different lab/origin.

-GC


----------



## Biscuit

Whilst I don't doubt that some labs cannot properly distinguish between certain regioisomers of MDMA, there's just no way a fully fledged government laboratory tasked by the authorities to precisely analyze all illicit substances for the purposes of prosecution, would mistake 2,3-MD for 3,4-MD. If the lab cannot distinguish these two then the whole process of reliably and accurately identifying potentially illegal substances would grind to a halt. In many jurisdictions 2,3-MD wouldn't even be prohibited and the system just would not tolerate a person being prosecuted for possessing or selling 3,4-MDMA if they in actual fact had 2,3-MDMA.

I continue to come back to the glycidate as being the genesis of the problem and the solution perhaps lies in what these labs actually do with this substance when making MDMA. 

Of course high purity PMK glycidate can be easily turned into PMK, that can then be vacuum distilled to provide near pure PMK; this being surely near identical to similarly purified safrole produced PMK, with any MDMA manufactured from this being entirely awesome. However, this clearly isn't what is happening when we are talking about MDMA being made from this particular pre-precursor on an industrial scale.

Have a look at this article:
 http://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory  
Now put aside what you might legitimately think about the provenance of the article and instead focus on the quite extraordinary statement in the paragraph immediately after the photo of the road with the blue Asian street sign:



> He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn't just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. "It achieves complex molecular changes in a single concerted step, almost like watching a solar system of planets align". "Elegant" is a good word for it, too. "It's the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it's explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration," he said.



If this is true then does anyone actually know what is happening in these reactions and what sort of products might be produced? 

Earlier in this thread i cited a European article that confirmed that around the time of the switch to the glycidate, the reducing agent of choice used for the reductive amination step changed markedly from a borohydride to hydrogenation over a platinum metal catalyst. Why make this change unless the reaction is now substantially different to just using pure PMK and pure methylamine like the good old days; does this catalyst allow for a one reaction hydrolysis and reductive amination step which the earlier far more commonly used reducing agents did not?

If this is correct then any number of consequences might arise:

- the product would not be racemic especially if only one enantiomer of the chiral glycidate is used.

- what on earth is produced when the glycidate is hydrolyzed and would this also undergo reductive animation to produce who knows what kind of toxic alkyl amine in the same reaction (and which would be removed by advanced purification steps that others have discussed and which seems to greatly assist)

- there are multiple different PMK glycidate type pre-precursors being used already and no doubt the products resulting from a one ?step? or ?pot? amination to MDMA would vary wildly in nature and number, depending on the specific pre-precursor being used 

- what impact might using heavy metal catalysts have on the purity of the product, especially if it is reused in massive reactions over and over again, with the catalyst no doubt being sourced from an industry that is not manufacturing chemicals for human consumption.

This simply confirms that we need to know, to a high degree of scientific detail, the answer to these questions:

(1) The identity of the various impurities found in samples of MDMA these days which are materially different from the sorts of impurities which have always been found in illicitly produced MDMA; 
(2) The enantiomeric (S:R) ratio of the MDMA; is it racemic as many people still believe or are many samples out there skewed in a particular direction (likely the R if anything); 
(3) The precise chemical identity of all the pre-precursors currently being used to manufacture MDMA; PMK glycidate is one but there are at least several more; 
(4) What manufacturing methods are used to convert the pre-precursor to MDMA, in particular is: (i) MDMA being made via some type of "one-pot" synthesis or is there some attempt to extract and purify the PMK first, and (ii) what chemicals are used in the reductive amination part of the process; and 
(4) What really happens at a molecular level when these glycidates/gycidic esters etc hydrolyze into separate components and do the "other components" involve themselves in later aspects of the process (or are otherwise not removed from the product produced) - people assume it is simple and assume these pre-precursors simply produce PMK to be used at the manufacturer's leisure in a later reaction, forgetting that there is an entire half a molecule floating around the vessel which is completely absent when purified PMK on its own. 

Personally, I think the reality of what we are dealing with is potentially even more complicated than the nature of the discussions to date and which may reveal a considerably worse state of affairs than what we have arrived at currently (which is already bad enough!)

Any thoughts?


----------



## G_Chem

^^^I think the chemist in that article is definitely alluding to a one pot straight from the glycidate.  It's not too hard to break down PMK glycidate to PMK in-situ, I would think..  There's a number of ways it could be done.

Reading around more it seems piperanol is the pre-precursor to PMK-glycidate.  I believe this is probably the main starting point over safrole these days, as we see with the Canadian analysis even they use it over there despite there also being safrole available.

I agree completely this issue is likely extremely complex with many variables, we need to do our best to look at the full scope of things to determine what's really going on.

I'm not really sure why the change in amination though... I think your on to something, things don't change unless they need to.

-GC


----------



## no_id

Did you found what is wrong finally ^?


----------



## Biscuit

GC - I will repost the article as it is too important not to remind everyone. 

Now the figures here are for MDMA seizures in Australia, where the bulk of our MDMA would come from Europe and bugger all is manufactured locally. I also seriously doubt much of any of it comes from Canada.

 https://www.acic.gov.au/sites/g/fi...amphetamine-type_stimulants.pdf?v=1498020180 

* See pages 15 to 17 and in particular tables six and seven *

The MASSIVE % change from using borohydride previously to then in 2013 and every year after almost exclusively using hydrogenation with Platinum catalyst (where it was scarcely used before), cannot be ignored. 

The fact the change coincides with about the year PMK glycidate became the norm in Europe, yields yet further significance to this issue, probably some ten times over!!

If I was a betting man I bet the Canadians are not only using PMK produced from safrole or piperonyl, but they are also using sodium borohydride in the reductive amination step.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^I just looked at platinum hydrogenation on rhodium.  The first "recipe" (hehe I know how much some people hate that word) involves glacial acetic acid.

Without getting any deeper into the mechanics it appears to me that if someone were to substitute PMK with PMK-glycidate, it could be done as a one pot with minor tweaking.

It's my belief this hydrogenation is used because of this combined with its scalability.

After a quick look over of the borohydride method I see no mention of an acid which would convert PMK gly to PMK.  Not to say it couldn't but maybe that reaction won't allow for it to be done in a one pot.

So I just want to check, are we certain PMK gly to PMK involves the use of an acid correct?  I didn't find much on that but I also didn't look hard either.

It sounds from my reading PMK glycidate is nothing too new (although it's popularity may be..) but I do believe this one pot amination is.

And I think your right Biscuit, I believe only people who use PMK gly will use a platinum hydrogenation as platinum catalyst isn't the cheapest thing in the world and sodium borohydride seems overall an easier/cheaper/more-well-known method to use.

Btw Biscuit I've been reading Hive posts from like 99 by you talking about the same thing lol you been at this for awhile..

@no-Id - Nope but we're farther along than anyone has ever been.  We've got more valuable information in this one thread regarding mdma variation than anywhere else by far.

I'd say we have a far better understanding of mdma variation but still can't pinpoint one particular problem, and we may never be able to either with such a complex issue.

-GC


----------



## Biscuit

G_Chem: I agree with everything you say, particularly your concluding sentiments. Haha, yes the Hive, I found that site before I found Bluelight, just as I found university chemistry before I found what made chemistry really interesting 

If anyone can access scientific journal articles, the following article looks particularly interesting and relevant:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24314521



> _ Forensic Sci Int. 2013 Dec 10;233(1-3):201-11. doi: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2013.09.009. Epub 2013 Sep 14. _
> 
> *Impact of reaction parameters on the chemical profile of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine synthesized via reductive amination: target analysis based on GC-qMS compared to non-targeted analysis based on GC?GC-TOF-MS*.
> 
> Sch?ffer M1, Dieckmann S, P?tz M, Kohles T, Pyell U, Zimmermann R.
> 
> Author information
> 
> 
> Abstract
> 
> The most common clandestine manufacturing procedure for the ecstasy derivative 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), is the reductive amination of piperonylmethylketone (PMK) via platinum(IV) oxide/hydrogen. Deviations of the reaction conditions during the synthesis may result in different chemical profiles of the products. The chemical analysis of these profiles is an important objective for forensic drug intelligence. In this work we studied the impact of a systematic variation of the hydrogenation time, the reaction temperature and the precursor batch on the resulting organic chemical profiles of the MDMA bases and MDMA hydrochlorides. Target analysis was based on a gas chromatography mass spectrometry (GC-MS) method which was harmonized during the European project CHAMP.(2) In addition, samples were analyzed by comprehensive two-dimensional gas chromatography time-of-flight mass spectrometry (GC?GC-TOFMS) and subjected to non-targeted data analysis for a comprehensive analysis of the complete profiles. The reaction temperature, followed by the used precursor batch, revealed the highest impact on the chemical profile. The effect on individual impurity compounds is discussed in detail. With respect to the interpretation of the data, the profiles were compared to the profiles of MDMA samples obtained by reductive amination using sodium borohydride ("cold method") and aluminium/mercury amalgam as alternative reducing agents. Non-targeted analysis revealed that the discrimination according to the synthetic route and the batch of precursor used for the synthesis strongly depends on the selected target compounds.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Just out of my own curiosity, and you've likely mentioned this before but, when was the first time you dosed mdma?

The abstract for that study does look interesting, soon as I have some reliable internet again I'll try to look it up.

One thing that's really been bothering me since this last analysis is that methylmercury..  With the mass reports of LTC with symptoms that closely resemble mercury poisoning it's hard not to worry.

I remember indigo bringing up the idea that maybe mercury was to blame but I brushed it off as only a rarity, but now I'm not so sure.

Of course we should wait to see if anymore pops up but at the same time if there's a way to stop any further problems I'd like to do it sooner over later.  I think it may be wise to preach ways of detoxifying heavy metals (aka mercury) from the bodies of both people with and without LTC.  I don't know enough about the process but selenium and zinc are important among others (coincidentally both which I take after a roll..)

Idk what do you guys think? On one hand it might benefit those suffering if indeed I am right, on the other hand if this is simply an anxiety related disorder it could do more harm than good.  Hard to know..  I believe LTC is induced by many different ways, some are probably purely anxiety based whereas others are not.

-GC


----------



## Biscuit

^ July 1999 and every year* since. 

(* i.e. many, many, many times in any given year, albeit slowing down since the glory days on 2001 to 2008. )


----------



## indigoaura

Yeah, G_Chem, unfortunately a lot of the LTC posts sound like mercury poisoning. Some moreso than others, but still. The similarities can be a bit disturbing. I am pretty plugged in to the alt health scene, and have read a decent amount about mercury poisoning. The problem is that even the alt health community cannot agree on how to best chelate/detox/heal from mercury poisoning. There are a lot of different methods, and each method has a loyal following that thinks that all the other methods are wrong. Even doctors disagree about how to best deal with mercury poisoning. So, sending an anxious person down that shitty rabbit hole could be really disastrous. 

All that said...if these people are dealing with mercury, then they need help. A hair test would be a good place to start just to check mercury levels. If there is a problem, then they could go to a doctor to try to get it dealt with. One "do it yourself" approach is called the Any Cutler protocol, and the people who use that protocol are active online and in social media and they are willing to offer help if asked.

But, it is seriously a confusing rabbit hole. I say that as someone who has spent at least ten years reading about this shit and trying to figure it out.

In other news...I should be moving forward with trying out some of that dark web product within the next 1-2 weeks, or possibly testing an IPA purified version of the stuff I have had access to (the sleepy stuff). Not sure which yet. What starting dosage would be best for someone with my profile of use (18 years)? I would like to select a starting dose that gets the job done and definitively begins the experience, as opposed to just dancing around the issue and waiting for a re-dose.


----------



## Goodwalt

I would say 140 mg.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Lol what?  140mg of good mdma is lovely though 

@Indigo- From your readings what is your opinion on the best method or is it too confusing to come to any conclusion?  I personally know little but would like to know more.  Any other info you could share would be beneficial.

It seems mercury does effect serotonin levels so this could be the problem.  I also wonder if this is being added intentionally?  Makes ya wonder sometimes..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G-Chem, honestly, I don't feel like I know enough to comment definitively on the mercury poisoning. The Andy Cutler Protocol has come up for me from several different angles/people. It seems well researched. Unlike some suggestions, there is a very clear step by step guide. No question about how to do it or how much of a supplement to take. These people know a lot about it, and they have put together very concise guides: https://www.facebook.com/groups/acfanatics/ One issue, however, is that you are not supposed to chelate at all if you have metal fillings, as the mercury in the fillings can leach and cause problems.

I know someone else who was prescribed different chelation drugs by a doctor, and he had such a hard time with reactions to those drugs that he could not continue to take them. From what I understand, some of the commonly prescribed supplements such as chlorophyll can do more harm than good due to the fact that they "stir up" the mercury without providing a path for elimination. 

MELISA testing is pretty well respected by medical professionals. http://www.melisa.org 

Hair testing is something I have read a lot about, but have not personally done. I actually plan to do this soon, and will let you know what it says.


----------



## psy997

Are we talking about testing or detox?


----------



## indigoaura

MELISA and hair testing are to determine if you are dealing with mercury poisoning (testing). The Andy Cutler Protocol is for removing the mercury from your system. So, both testing and detox.


----------



## indigoaura

Check out some of the warnings posted regarding recently tested ecstasty:
https://dancesafe.org

I noticed one of those Trump pills: 





> An orange Donald Trump tablet with was submitted from Chicago, IL. This sample was sold as Ecstasy/MDMA, but did not test as such. It was found to contain 5 (active) parts Methylsulfonylmethane (an organic sulfur-containing compound that is often take as a joint health supplement), 2 (active) parts caffeine, and 1 (active) part methamphetamine. The tablet was printed with Donald Trump’s face on one side, and a score line, the word “Trump” with stars above it, and the letters “NL” on the other side.


----------



## indigoaura

Stumbled upon the Energy Control International page today. I had never heard of them before. They offer testing services for international submissions. Has anyone seen one of their reports? Do they cover isomers etc?

From reading their page, it appears they are invested in research and user health. They seem like they would be a good group to reach out to. Perhaps they would be willing to assist with this research. They also have a lengthy list of published scientific reports that relate to adulterants, purity, etc. 

Example: https://energycontrol-international...ifferent-in-terms-of-purity-and-adulterat.pdf


----------



## indigoaura

Ok, so I have some news to report...

Finally had the chance to try some of the DW product. It had been over 6 months since my last roll.

The crystals were hydrous, so I knew that it was likely that I may need more to produce a usual effect. I decided to start with 130 mg, and follow with 70 mg. I considered the 140 mg suggested, but that was significantly above my usual starting point of 100 mg. 

I took the 130 mg at 8:42 pm. By 9:11, I was coming up. This was the first obvious difference between this product and the product that I typically have access to. I usually do not note the "come up" on the other product until about an hour in to the experience. Also, interesting to me that this was the first time I felt that "old-school" burst of nausea on the come up. I stood up to run to the bathroom at one point. Have not experienced that in 13 years.

By 9:29 pm, I was over that come up and was rolling. So, all of this in under an hour.

At 9:38 pm, I noted eye dilation in the mirror. This was not the full black saucer pupils, but it was a noticeable, obvious dilation. This is also in contrast to the usual product that I have, where I do not typically see eye dilation. Later in the evening, the eye dilation had increased significantly. 

I took the extra 70 mg at 10:16 pm. 

At this point in the experience, I felt social. I wanted to talk to the people around me. I had energy. I walked a lot from one room to the other, inside to outside etc. These are all characteristics that I recall from my early days. I had several of those moments of semi-confessional comments, where I felt the need to express something that I would not have typically thought/said.

I was not, however, ever "balls to the wall" rolling. I do think that dosage would have likely corrected that. I felt like the elements were there that should have been there. If these were pills from the old days, I would have just eaten more pills till I got where I wanted to be. Honestly, I probably could have started with 200 mg. I don't think the weight of this product was reflective of the MDMA content. The other thing I noticed is that the effects felt very short-lasting. The plateau was incredibly short.  The best of my old experiences continued in a seemingly endless fashion, with only one re-dose. 

At 11:30 pm, I felt like the effects were waning. I had the option at that point for the party to stop, or to add on 100 mg of the "other" MDMA that I typically use. I hardly ever mix different products. Since these products were both lab tested, however, I did not feel like the same dangers were present. I also wanted to see if the tone of the experience changed with the product change.

So, all 11:30 pm I took 100 mg of the "sleepy" MDMA. This MDMA came into the experience and felt pretty cold. Obviously - as a second re-dose this is possibly due to diminished serotonin. However, the side-effect profile shifted noticeably. This MDMA caused an unpleasant jaw jitter. Not a jaw clenching. I feel like that difference is important. This MDMA produced a jittery shake that felt very mechanical. Brought sex into the experience shortly after this, and the sexual vibe was not as intense as it typically would be.

By 2 am I was basically at baseline. I stayed up with people till around 4 am, and then went to sleep with no issues at all. I feel fine today. No physical sickness, no dizziness. Based on how I am feeling right now, I do not expect to have any significant issues this week. 

If you made it all the way through this post - thanks! 

My overall conclusions here are:

1. The "sleepy" MDMA has active impurities. Those impurities are probably what has been causing my dizziness, sickness, nausea etc. in the days after rolling. Since I just took 100 mg of that product, I probably did not get enough of the impurities to have an impact.

2. Different MDMA products clearly have different effect profiles. Although a bit weak, the DW product brought back the pro-social, talkative vibe I remember from raving. 

3. I am pretty motivated at this point to try other variants until I find one that I really like. I also feel like there is little point in taking the sleepy product ever again. There is clearly something not right in that product that makes me sick. I don't need that. For example, on NYE, I took 300 mg of that product and was so sick the next day I was couch ridden and could barely move. 

I will keep posting updates. I am curious to know what you guys think about all this.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I'm not sourcing, but do you have any idea of the country of origin of your DW product?  I think it's been well established for some time that the old argument of "MDMA is MDMA" is a load of nonsense - there are clearly many variants. However, it's encouraging to note the increasing number of reports of the 'good shit' being available again.


----------



## PlayHard

or any photos of your DW purchase? my most recent "glass" like md came from the DW, i wouldnt say on the weak side mind. 100mg was enough for me on friday night, very oldskool feel of total bliss when coming up other than the burst nausea as you mention. very clean product, slept fine after smoking some top quality soft hash. felt good in myself the next day aswell


----------



## G_Chem

Lots to say but I'll edit it in later...

But til then, thanks for updating us on that indigo I was wondering about that!  I like your outlook on the future too, as there isn't really generalizable variants but from what I'm finding each batch can be different from the next.  It's good to keep looking as not only will you eventually find what you prefer but then you can switch up.

Be back later 

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I can get photos for you and upload. I have been meaning to update my testing kit and post videos of that reaction as well.

The product was advertised as being "safrole derived" and "made in California." It did have a very faint safrole smell. Not as strong as the pills I recall from "back in the day."

Also, just have to add...SO MUCH AFTERGLOW.

Melting into a puddle of love over here.


----------



## G_Chem

After reading over your report a few things.  First off, I do believe you are correct in that dosages of even "good" mdma are not as potent as they used to be for the most part.

This comes down to the fact the drug is sold by weight over unit more often than not these days.  Not that there isn't pure (99.9%.) mdma out there but most has small amounts of other substances added to help create better bigger crystalline rocks.  This is a problem for both the good stuff and the bad stuff I presume.

In regards to duration.  That can fluctuate depending on many factors, I once in awhile will have a "shorter than I would have enjoyed" roll off familiar batches.  Try again in the future to see if it's still shorter acting.

The afterglow is the tell tale sign of good stuff though.  Nothing clears my head like a good roll.

Glad your feeling good brother 

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

GC, can you clarify how hydrous vs. anhydrous would impact weight? 

I recall having some pills a long time ago that felt a lot like this product. Very short, but very loved up. They were super tiny pills, I remember that. 

Obviously, also, I recognize that I have a tolerance.  However, the familiarity of the come-up, socialization, and positivity makes me feel that my issue has been my product. 

Did you have a chance to view that international testing site? I think that I will send a sample in of my questionable MDMA and pay for a full PDF report.


----------



## PlayHard

indigoaura said:


> Ok, so I have some news to report...
> 
> Finally had the chance to try some of the DW product. It had been over 6 months since my last roll.
> 
> The crystals were hydrous, so I knew that it was likely that I may need more to produce a usual effect. I decided to start with 130 mg, and follow with 70 mg. I considered the 140 mg suggested, but that was significantly above my usual starting point of 100 mg.
> 
> I took the 130 mg at 8:42 pm. By 9:11, I was coming up. This was the first obvious difference between this product and the product that I typically have access to. I usually do not note the "come up" on the other product until about an hour in to the experience. Also, interesting to me that this was the first time I felt that "old-school" burst of nausea on the come up. I stood up to run to the bathroom at one point. Have not experienced that in 13 years.
> 
> By 9:29 pm, I was over that come up and was rolling. So, all of this in under an hour.
> 
> At 9:38 pm, I noted eye dilation in the mirror. This was not the full black saucer pupils, but it was a noticeable, obvious dilation. This is also in contrast to the usual product that I have, where I do not typically see eye dilation. Later in the evening, the eye dilation had increased significantly.
> 
> I took the extra 70 mg at 10:16 pm.
> 
> At this point in the experience, I felt social. I wanted to talk to the people around me. I had energy. I walked a lot from one room to the other, inside to outside etc. These are all characteristics that I recall from my early days. I had several of those moments of semi-confessional comments, where I felt the need to express something that I would not have typically thought/said.
> 
> I was not, however, ever "balls to the wall" rolling. I do think that dosage would have likely corrected that. I felt like the elements were there that should have been there. If these were pills from the old days, I would have just eaten more pills till I got where I wanted to be. Honestly, I probably could have started with 200 mg. I don't think the weight of this product was reflective of the MDMA content. The other thing I noticed is that the effects felt very short-lasting. The plateau was incredibly short.  The best of my old experiences continued in a seemingly endless fashion, with only one re-dose.
> 
> At 11:30 pm, I felt like the effects were waning. I had the option at that point for the party to stop, or to add on 100 mg of the "other" MDMA that I typically use. I hardly ever mix different products. Since these products were both lab tested, however, I did not feel like the same dangers were present. I also wanted to see if the tone of the experience changed with the product change.
> 
> So, all 11:30 pm I took 100 mg of the "sleepy" MDMA. This MDMA came into the experience and felt pretty cold. Obviously - as a second re-dose this is possibly due to diminished serotonin. However, the side-effect profile shifted noticeably. This MDMA caused an unpleasant jaw jitter. Not a jaw clenching. I feel like that difference is important. This MDMA produced a jittery shake that felt very mechanical. Brought sex into the experience shortly after this, and the sexual vibe was not as intense as it typically would be.
> 
> By 2 am I was basically at baseline. I stayed up with people till around 4 am, and then went to sleep with no issues at all. I feel fine today. No physical sickness, no dizziness. Based on how I am feeling right now, I do not expect to have any significant issues this week.
> 
> If you made it all the way through this post - thanks!
> 
> My overall conclusions here are:
> 
> 1. The "sleepy" MDMA has active impurities. Those impurities are probably what has been causing my dizziness, sickness, nausea etc. in the days after rolling. Since I just took 100 mg of that product, I probably did not get enough of the impurities to have an impact.
> 
> 2. Different MDMA products clearly have different effect profiles. Although a bit weak, the DW product brought back the pro-social, talkative vibe I remember from raving.
> 
> 3. I am pretty motivated at this point to try other variants until I find one that I really like. I also feel like there is little point in taking the sleepy product ever again. There is clearly something not right in that product that makes me sick. I don't need that. For example, on NYE, I took 300 mg of that product and was so sick the next day I was couch ridden and could barely move.
> 
> I will keep posting updates. I am curious to know what you guys think about all this.



this sure sounds like the same product i have, the come down/ drop off is so sudden but the afterflow remains nicely. ive tried multi quoting a few things you have stated in other posts on this page but keep loosing 1 or the other. but everything you mention, sounds like the same mdma i have here. the nausea on comeup. then the pure bliss that follow's as thats how id describe it  another thing is i dont feel the need to re-dose after the first dose. i feel those few short hours are enough

question was the sleepy product off tan/cola?


----------



## indigoaura

Playhard, I think a lot of clean, pure MDMA would have a similar profile. As I think I mentioned in my post, I do believe that this product was a bit weak, but other than that, it had very positive qualities. 1 dose was definitely NOT enough for me. Felt like arriving at Disneyworld and seeing the signs, but not going into the park all the way. I have always been a re-doser though, from day 1. I can only think of one experience where I did not re-dose, and that was an unusually special experience indeed.

The other, "sleepy," product I have is actually pretty white and dry. I will try to post photos of both for the sake of comparison.

Forgot to mention in my original report that I had eaten about 4 hours earlier.


----------



## G_Chem

@indigo- It's hard to say how much hydration can effect the weight as it can vary, there are multiple hydrated polymorphs.  One study I read claims to have found two hydrated polymorphs amongst illicit samples.  I wish I could answer that better.

And I don't remember if I did check that site out or not, could you re-link it for me or remind me where it's at please? 

I find your evaluation of the side effects interesting for the other "not so good mdma," I completely agree that impurities must be the problem with that stuff.

In the end though your right you do have a tolerance after all these years.  It's my belief that duration is the most effected by tolerance over time, I notice many of my old rolling friends talk about how it doesn't last as long as it used to when they started.

Next time I'd try a bigger dose and maybe take your redose 2 to 2 1/2hrs after initial.  I normally wouldn't suggest waiting so long but in your case a little extra MDMA to MDA metabolism might help out for duration.

Anyway to see a picture of the DW mdma? Just curious..

So you gotta think with 99.9% pure mdma the dosages are 80-120mg for someone with no or little tolerance.  Likely the product is in the upper 80's/lower 90's% at best, and with a tolerance I could see 150-160mg plus 80-90mg booster being a better fit next time.

Do you still have some left?

-GC


----------



## Doclad

G_Chem said:


> So you gotta think with 99.9% pure mdma the dosages are 80-120mg for someone with no or little tolerance.  Likely the product is in the upper 80's/lower 90's% at best, and with a tolerance I could see 150-160mg plus 80-90mg booster being a better fit next time.
> -GC



The highest purity of MDMA should be closer to 90% than 100%, since it normally occurs in the form of HCl salt, not free base.


DocLad


----------



## G_Chem

^^^This is an all too common misconception that the Dutch DW vendors picked up and ran with.  I've explained a few times in the past on this thread if you want a better explanation but...

MDMA HCl can achieve 99.9% purity.  The HCl is not considered an impurity but is molecularly bonded with the "Freebase".  This essentially creates a new substance with new properties, its not just Freebase mdma still with some HCl mixed in.  It's a bad analogy but it's like saying salt can only be 50% pure because it's only half sodium.

If you purify mdma beyond the "84%" often quoted it's not going to spontaneously turn into a liquid beyond that point.  That's not how it works.  Again we are talking about two completely different substances (the Freebase and HCl) with different properties that can both achieve 99.9% purity.

This misconception grew from the fact some labs report their findings in Freebase since they can't or don't care to determine the salt used.  This varies for each lab, erowid has a good article on it where they contact various labs and ask how they report.

Then the Dutch used this to sell inferior product.  Now someone is less likely to bitch if their mdma is in the mid 80's% because this thing has grown to the point where 84% of people actually believe it...

Purity is based on impurities separate from the molecular structure, HCl is part of that stable molecular structure.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> ^^^This is an all too common misconception that the Dutch DW vendors picked up and ran with.  I've explained a few times in the past on this thread if you want a better explanation but...
> 
> MDMA HCl can achieve 99.9% purity.  The HCl is not considered an impurity but is molecularly bonded with the "Freebase".  This essentially creates a new substance with new properties, its not just Freebase mdma still with some HCl mixed in.  It's a bad analogy but it's like saying salt can only be 50% pure because it's only half sodium.
> 
> If you purify mdma beyond the "84%" often quoted it's not going to spontaneously turn into a liquid beyond that point.  That's not how it works.  Again we are talking about two completely different substances (the Freebase and HCl) with different properties that can both achieve 99.9% purity.
> 
> This misconception grew from the fact some labs report their findings in Freebase since they can't or don't care to determine the salt used.  This varies for each lab, erowid has a good article on it where they contact various labs and ask how they report.
> 
> Then the Dutch used this to sell inferior product.  Now someone is less likely to bitch if their mdma is in the mid 80's% because this thing has grown to the point where 84% of people actually believe it...
> 
> Purity is based on impurities separate from the molecular structure, HCl is part of that stable molecular structure.
> 
> -GC



Yep, many DW vendors tout the same bollocks with amphetamine sulphate - saying it can never be more than 78% (iirc) pure because of the salt. Utter shite, what we want is pure sulphate, not freebase...

Although I've never purchased from the DW, I've trawled the markets many a time, and see this misconception repeated over and over again.


----------



## Doclad

What I mean is that a dose of MDMA HCl even though it does not have impurities can not be 100% MDMA, that is only for MDMA freebase. 
The molecular weight of the HCl salt is not very relevant because it is low, but for example a Citrate salt is very heavy and it would be convenient to make the calculations necessary to dose the correct dose, even if it was MDMA without impurities.


DocLad


----------



## G_Chem

No.. MDMA HCl can be 99.9999% pure.  (Nothing can ever be 100%.)  Again you need to look at them as two different substances entirely because that is what they are.  The HCl is a molecular bond, not something just free floating in there to keep it a solid until it's "purified" beyond 84%.  Mdma Freebase and MDMA HCl are two entirely different compounds in regards to this discussion.

Yes different salts have different weights but that isn't really what we're talking about here.

Ask anyone who actually knows chemistry well and they will tell you the same.  This whole 84% highest purity thing is less than a decade old...  It's a scam by DW vendors and everyone ate it up.  MDMA HCl (or citrate, or tartrate, etc) had no problem reaching 99% before and I've seen many reputable research articles that talk about purity above 84%.

One more time, when we are talking about purity in chemistry that is in regards to any other substance that isn't part of the molecular structure of the substance in question.  The HCl is part of that molecular bond, therefore it's not included.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off pissy it's just I've had to rehash this thing time and again.

Also while the citrate is a heavier salt making weighing doses easier, it also seems to have different pharmacological effects based on anecdotal information from chemists on the old Hive, vespiary, etc.  I gather it's a smoother less intense experience with longer duration and a little more psychedelic.

Many would argue salt only effects dose, I'd argue they're wrong..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@ G_Chem - this is the website that I found: https://energycontrol-international.org/drug-testing-service/

They appear to offer a more advanced testing service than Edata. I emailed them to see if their report shows isomer ratios, but I have not heard back yet. If they offer a more advanced service, this may be an easy way for all of us to send in samples and start comparing notes.

What is the best way to get a good photo of this stuff? Black paper for a point of contrast?

Also, just as expected, I have had no issues at all with recovery/comedown. On Monday I felt a little queasy, but nothing serious. Yesterday and today I have been totally fine. No issues sleeping. Only very minor emotional vulnerability noted. I basically feel normal. Sunday's afterglow was almost as awesome as Saturday's roll.


----------



## indigoaura

Forgot to reply to this earlier...

Yes, I do have a little more. I deliberately left some out so there could be a second experience later. I really only have enough left for one other experience, based on what I know now about dosing.

Also, been browsing around the DW. Obviously, there is a lot of total shit listed. I see some vendors identifying PMK as the precursor. I have seen this on several listings. They all seem to be more "professional" listings from self-identified labs. I have not seen any other vendors identifying safrole as the starting point. The vendor I used before is no longer around, unfortunately.


----------



## Doclad

-GC, Excuse me if I screwed up on this thread with the percentage issue. 
From the beginning I have been referring to a percentage based on the molecular weight of the substance in the form of salt or freebase and I see that this was not the subject of discussion here. My apologies. 

Anyway, nobody is surprised if EnergyControl offers results based on what I'm saying. For example, they take as reference DMT freebase and Harmina / Harmalina freebase to calculate the percentage of "purity" of the substances, for this reason the DMT Fumarate is always around 65%. 
I wanted to clarify this point, since this fact is why I made my previous comment.


DocLad


----------



## indigoaura

I received a reply today from Energy Control. They state:



> First of all, thank you for contacting us with this.
> 
> I'm sorry for the delay in response, it's not for lack of attention but rather the opposite. These analysis are not something we usually do but we find this kind of research very interesting, so we are gathering some more info and talking with other possible partners to see if there is a chance to make this possible.
> 
> We will write back as soon as we have a full answer, but in summer things go a bit slower so please allow us some more time



G_Chem, Glubra and others: what are some of the specific questions I should pose to Energy Control? What kinds of tests would we like to see? What issues are we specifically interested in comparing? I am definitely not the chemist of this group...

If Energy Control is willing to be a central lab to analyze samples, then we could all actually send in samples and compare the results without any personal danger. I know Glubra has the ability to test things he encounters, but he cannot test what all of us encounter. I am personally eager to send in the "sleepy" sample and see what a detailed report would show. If we could find a way to cross reference the lab results with experience reports, we could perhaps begin to really understand some of the nuances that are occurring. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Goodwalt

It would be very interesting to test for:
Isomer ratios 
Contaminants
Regioisomers
Hydration


----------



## Doclad

I have been several times in the EC offices, they are friendly and very professional people. Of course, I live in Barcelona and I can analyze the samples for free with them. 
If you live outside Catalonia the price per sample is quite high. If you have money to invest in this type of tests it is great, but I would recommend only analyzing what is indispensable.


DocLad


----------



## district9

Going through a very bad long term (five weeks now) molly comedown. Can anyone help? Thanks.


----------



## Doclad

district9 said:


> Going through a very bad long term (five weeks now) molly comedown. Can anyone help? Thanks.



First of all, publish your own thread to be seen and browsed by other users as soon as possible without hindering the course of this thread.


DocLad


----------



## district9

ok. Sorry about that.


----------



## incubud

Ya, Ive had that non euphoric stuff. It was nearly white and didnt have much of the black licorice taste...HOW DO I AVOID THAT? LOL. Please and thanks in advance.


----------



## indigoaura

> HOW DO I AVOID THAT? LOL.



This is literally what we have been trying to figure out for the last 43 pages.

:D

In all seriousness, we're working on it. Wish there was a definitive way to answer that question at this time.


----------



## Doclad

indigoaura said:


> This is literally what we have been trying to figure out for the last 43 pages.



hahaha I think we have to write some more pages.


DocLad


----------



## PlayHard

^ this is product i got from a local source who bought it via DW between christmas - march / april up until around may time when it was no longer available and a close friend sourced this which has a weird off tint / yellow like glass, i was sceptical at first as not a fan of "cola". however this isnt cola, this is the cleaner product ive been speaking of. 90mg/100mg had me in a state of pure bliss. photo below :






 (im sorry for this photo not been as clear as the other, this clearly show's these are'nt the same product. off tint yellow/tan like & clear white)

both very clean and different from each other in terms of high, and comedown.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

PlayHard said:


> ^ this is product i got from a local source who bought it via DW between christmas - march / april up until around may time when it was no longer available and a close friend sourced this which has a weird off tint / yellow like glass, i was sceptical at first as not a fan of "cola". however this isnt cola, this is the cleaner product ive been speaking of. 90mg/100mg had me in a state of pure bliss. photo below :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (im sorry for this photo not been as clear as the other, this clearly show's these are'nt the same product. off tint yellow/tan like & clear white)
> 
> both very clean and different from each other in terms of high, and comedown.



Bee-yoo-tee-full...!!


----------



## PlayHard

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Bee-yoo-tee-full...!!



took me awhile to realise what you were saying.. 8( but yes. beautiful!


----------



## Doclad

10 years ago the ecstasy that made us roll hard looked like these rocks...it looks great! 
Anyway with a simple wash of acetone anhydrous you would get a purer product.


DocLad


----------



## indigoaura

Playhard, can you characterize the differences in these two products? How was each experience different from the other?


----------



## PlayHard

the first photo - the come up isnt as intense, and the high is more long lasting just not at clean & as "bliss". i took this in a different enviroment & the second product at home alone which isnt normal for me to be fair, i like to be with people whilst gettin high

 bliss < i use this word as thats what the second photos product made me which brings me to the second product in photo 2 

the second product takes me back to the first / second time's i took pills/mdma back in 2003-2004 in my early teen's. Im not 1 to go chasing that first experience as such but this really hit the spot and brought alot of memories flooding back. the drop off/ come down is quite sudden and such a lovely mellow feeling. very happy in myself etc


----------



## PlayHard

indigoaura said:


> Playhard, can you characterize the differences in these two products? How was each experience different from the other?



any photos of your DW purchase. can be exchanged via inbox or elsewhere if you dont want to post it on here? if any1 else wants to chime in and post some photos to >


----------



## PlayHard

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Bee-yoo-tee-full...!!



ok so i thought that was next level and a trip down memorie lane? i was given a sample.. bare in mind i told the person who wanted hes product testing with the basic "advanced 3 bottle kit" i wouldnt need more then a few specle's. so he hands me this gram and left me to it  8(






this isnt the full gram, this is whats left after ive taken a specle to test & then given a specle to a close friend to "test"  

photos and video of actual testing to follow.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

PlayHard said:


> ok so i thought that was next level and a trip down memorie lane? i was given a sample.. bare in mind i told the person who wanted hes product testing with the basic "advanced 3 bottle kit" i wouldnt need more then a few specle's. so he hands me this gram and left me to it  8(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this isnt the full gram, this is whats left after ive taken a specle to test & then given a specle to a close friend to "test"
> 
> photos and video of actual testing to follow.



Fuckin hell, that would look nice in my gin & tonic...


----------



## PlayHard

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Fuckin hell, that would look nice in my gin & tonic...



ive got no problem with sharing aslong as we are'nt exchanging product "tongue to rectum?" style...


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

PlayHard said:


> ive got no problem with sharing aslong as we are'nt exchanging product "tongue to rectum?" style...



Spoilsport!


----------



## G_Chem

@DocLad- My apologies for coming off like a dick about that.  And indeed many labs do report in such a way, but my understanding is they are doing this because they either don't care or can't determine the salt used.

And that rock looks nice Playhard.  I'm going to wager a guess there will be little if any purple in a Marquis reaction on that mdma, it'll be mostly black.

I myself last weekend obtained two very high purity samples of MDMA.  One I'm fairly certain is safrole derived and one that seems piperanol derived.  They both had nice crystal formation but the safrole mdma was a bit more opaque with a light amber color.  I bioassayed the safrole mdma and was completely blown away.

I think I'm finally getting a good impression on the differences that certain safrole mdma batches can produce...

So here it is..

I believe "good" mdma can be had from most, if not all, synthetic routes if the purity is high enough.  Some synth routes have impurities which negate the effect of the mdma whereas others (like from safrole) have impurities which strengthens and alters the experience.  Of course as purity increases, each synthetic route feels closer to the next.

Over the past few years comparing safrole mdma to mdma that was NOT made from safrole I've found the following differences..  (Note: Below the comparisons made are generalizations and are made between two groups of somewhat generalized mdma batches, both of which I consider "good.")

- Duration.  High purity not-from-safrole mdma will last 3-5 hours with a more pronounced drop off whereas safrole mdma feels more like 4-6 with a smoother drop off that retains a little energy.

- Come up/Peak.  Not-from-safrole has a much calmer come up and peak, it can be intense but nowhere near safrole mdma.  Safrole mdma will have you breathing heavy, needing a place to calm down so you don't puke and it feels like the come up part lasts longer.  Once you hit the peak too its also much more intense and pronounced.  It feels with safrole mdma there's a strong initial peak period of an hour or two that isn't really there with the other stuff.

- Empathy/Socialability.  More pronounced with safrole mdma.  Come to think of it, all of my deepest most therapeutic moments have been with safrole mdma.  Last weekend the conversation led to childhood trauma which I've never talked with anyone before, it was beautiful..

-  Energy.  More pronounced with safrole mdma.  It feels like they both have similar energy levels but there's less of a lethargic/flooring effect that can mask that energy.


With all that said I believe the batches of safrole mdma I've been testing on myself, while of decently high purity, still aren't as pure as these crystal clear not-from-safrole mdma shards I have been coming across..  It appears completely pure mdma might not be as "good" as slightly impure safrole mdma.

I found this theory to be further corroborated when I tested a batch of safrole mdma which was of exceedingly high purity with very very little leftover safrole in it.  It felt close to high purity mdma from what I believe to be made from other routes.  The differences aren't felt until more impurities/safrole is present it seems.

So with that in mind, what impurity could be the culprit to this increase in positive effect??

My guess is either dihydrosafrole or safrole itself, it's not far fetched to think these compounds could have a synergistic effect with mdma since mdma can "tie up" certain enzymes causing a change from the normal route of metabolism.

Whatever it is, after last weekend, I've decided besides experimentation I'll be using mdma which smells of safrole from now on.  I used to actually avoid it as I equated the smell as "impure" but now I see that 99+% purity isn't everything.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> @DocLad- My apologies for coming off like a dick about that.  And indeed many labs do report in such a way, but my understanding is they are doing this because they either don't care or can't determine the salt used.
> 
> And that rock looks nice Playhard.  I'm going to wager a guess there will be little if any purple in a Marquis reaction on that mdma, it'll be mostly black.
> 
> I myself last weekend obtained two very high purity samples of MDMA.  One I'm fairly certain is safrole derived and one that seems piperanol derived.  They both had nice crystal formation but the safrole mdma was a bit more opaque with a light amber color.  I bioassayed the safrole mdma and was completely blown away.
> 
> I think I'm finally getting a good impression on the differences that certain safrole mdma batches can produce...
> 
> So here it is..
> 
> I believe "good" mdma can be had from most, if not all, synthetic routes if the purity is high enough.  Some synth routes have impurities which negate the effect of the mdma whereas others (like from safrole) have impurities which strengthens and alters the experience.
> 
> Over the past few years comparing safrole mdma to mdma that was NOT made from safrole I've found the following differences..  (Note: Below the comparisons made are generalizations and are made between two groups of mdma batches, both of which I consider "good.")
> 
> - Duration.  High purity not-from-safrole mdma will last 3-5 hours with a more pronounced drop off whereas safrole mdma feels more like 4-6 with a smoother drop off that retains a little energy.
> 
> - Come up/Peak.  Not-from-safrole has a much calmer come up and peak, it can be intense but nowhere near safrole mdma.  Safrole mdma will have you breathing heavy, needing a place to calm down so you don't puke and it feels like the come up part lasts longer.  Once you hit the peak too its also much more intense and pronounced.  It feels with safrole mdma there's a strong initial peak period of an hour or two that isn't really there with the other stuff.
> 
> - Empathy/Socialability.  More pronounced with safrole mdma.  Come to think of it, all of my deepest most therapeutic moments have been with safrole mdma.  Last weekend the conversation led to childhood trauma which I've never talked with anyone before, it was beautiful..
> 
> -  Energy.  More pronounced with safrole mdma.  It feels like they both have similar energy levels but there's less of a lethargic/flooring effect that can mask that energy.
> 
> 
> With all that said I believe the batches of safrole mdma I've been testing on myself, while of decently high purity, still aren't as pure as these crystal clear not-from-safrole mdma shards I have been coming across..  It appears completely pure mdma might not be as "good" as slightly impure safrole mdma.
> 
> I found this theory to be further corroborated when I tested a batch of safrole mdma which was of exceedingly high purity with very very little leftover safrole in it.  It felt close to high purity mdma from what I believe to be made from other routes.  The differences aren't felt until more impurities/safrole is present it seems.
> 
> So with that in mind, what impurity could be the culprit to this increase in positive effect??
> 
> My guess is either dihydrosafrole or safrole itself, it's not far fetched to think these compounds could have a synergistic effect with mdma since mdma can "tie up" certain enzymes causing a change from the normal route of metabolism.
> 
> Whatever it is, after last weekend, I've decided besides experimentation I'll be using mdma which smells of safrole from now on.  I used to actually avoid it as I equated the smell as "impure" but now I see that 99+% purity isn't everything.
> 
> -GC



I agree that 'purity' does not necessarily equate with 'quality'.

As an analogy, consider sound. A sine wave gives a pure note. However, this is not particularly pleasant to listen to. A sine wave with overtones however (i.e. 'impure') produces a much more rich and pleasant effect upon the ear.

Biological organisms are not engineered for purity. A little 'fuzzyness' can go a long way towards our satisfaction...


----------



## G_Chem

^^Beautiful analogy..

Another drug which can be somewhat similar is THC.  I much prefer a good live resin with all of those good terpenes over pure 99.9% THC-A crystals.  The THC-A has too clean and almost subtle in its feel, the terpenes round off the effect and add a certain level of pleasure not obtainable from the pure THC.

I think a similar thing happened in the early 90's, with MDMA that had DMMDA as an impurity.

The whole Drug X is Drug X argument is so stupid at this point it's laughable.  Drugs can so easily be augmented in effect by the littlest additions or substractions of other substances.

I'm really glad though I've given smellier mdma a try cuz while the really pure stuff I was taking before is amazing, the past few stinkier (as in heavier in safrole smell, but still not overwhelming) batches I've tried have really blown me away.

Also I'm going to get some pics up soon hopefully as well.. 

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

I also want to note, I keep a close eye on other forums and I am noticing the arguments have shifted from everyone saying "all mdma is the same" to people quoting information they likely found here... Our information is getting out there people 

Here's a quote from a recent Reddit thread:

""Not buying that, The original synth for MDMA used, safrole which wasn't pure being a plant extract and contained isomers among other things. The new synth uses PMK glycidate, which is going to be missing certain chemicals as its made from petrochemicals and is synthetic in nature.

So during the original MDMA synth, its going to produce other something other than MDMA, which is sadly something the new stuff is missing. I did try to obtain analytical data from MDMA seized from 90s and early 2000s to compare it to MDMA Seized from 2012 to 2018. I was told by different agency and analytical labs that the data will not be published as its not in the public's best interest, no body wants to release any data to the public.

There is defiantly a difference as I had some 2006 MDMA saved, which had a aniseed licorice smell and it also looked much different to the common 2018 moon rocks floating about. comparing the two, I loved the original MDMA synth, the new stuffs not so great.

Both MDMA samples where tested.""

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Plus there's the fact that chemistry is not an exact science. It's all about encouraging compounds to react with other compounds to achieve the desired result. However, there are a multitude of variables which can affect the success of those reactions. A pharmaceutical laboratory can minimise those variables to such an extent where a standardised product can be achieved. But clandestine chemistry does not have such stringent controls. Hence unpredictable and variable product.


----------



## PlayHard

you are correct g chem - the mdma above and in this fresh photo im posting does indeed turn to jet black, no purple. and im guessing isnt made from safrole. going to check a video i recorded from testing the mdma i purchased at the frontend of june. pretty sure this tested purple? ill post the video over this weekend. signal isnt great at the moment, taken me long enough to upload this photo -


----------



## G_Chem

@Fubar-  Exactly!  Even pharmaceutical labs have strange things happen that are hard to explain such as changes in polymorphs and such..  A clandestine lab doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell to reproduce time and again a standardized product.

@Playhard- My educated theory is that yes that MDMA is likely produced from piperanol based on the look of the crystal and Marquis reaction.  I've seen so many batches of mdma over the years I can tell more often than not by eye these days.  Again it doesn't mean it isn't amazing by any means, I would buy and eat that stuff in a second and I bet it produces a quality experience.  It looks pretty pure.  Your experience with that product (I remember you trying it already?) helps prove that indeed good feeling mdma can be made from piperanol or better said "not from safrole."

Actually a lot of the MDMA I've consumed over the years looked very similar to that picture.

Edit- Just looked back at your two pictures and to be honest they resemble the differences I've seen between what I presume is safrole mdma Vs piperanol MDMA.  I'm guessing the product that brought you back was the one that tested purple and also wasn't quite as clear of crystals? Pretty much my experience seems to correlate well with yours.

-GC


----------



## PlayHard

G_Chem said:


> @Fubar-  Exactly!  Even pharmaceutical labs have strange things happen that are hard to explain such as changes in polymorphs and such..  A clandestine lab doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell to reproduce time and again a standardized product.
> 
> @Playhard- My educated theory is that yes that MDMA is likely produced from piperanol based on the look of the crystal and Marquis reaction.  I've seen so many batches of mdma over the years I can tell more often than not by eye these days.  Again it doesn't mean it isn't amazing by any means, I would buy and eat that stuff in a second and I bet it produces a quality experience.  It looks pretty pure.  Your experience with that product (I remember you trying it already?) helps prove that indeed good feeling mdma can be made from piperanol or better said "not from safrole."
> 
> Actually a lot of the MDMA I've consumed over the years looked very similar to that picture.
> 
> Edit- Just looked back at your two pictures and to be honest they resemble the differences I've seen between what I presume is safrole mdma Vs piperanol MDMA.  I'm guessing the product that brought you back was the one that tested purple and also wasn't quite as clear of crystals? Pretty much my experience seems to correlate well with yours.
> 
> -GC



your correct, it was the off tint of amber/yellow like mdma that took me down memory lane and made me feel similar to my first few times i took mdma... im sure it tested purple aswell. the come up was very intense and seemed to hit me in wave after wave for quite a duration or what felt that way at the time? however the high lasted between 3-5 hours and the drop off / come down was more sudden - then a lovely afterglow, such a happy mellow experience. which i then slept with no problems (smoked a bong or two of soft polm/hash) the next few days made me feel like weight had been lifted from my shoulders.. usually im a little rough but not from this lot of mdma. this stuff at the time made me feel pure bliss and no care in the world 8( might i add i dosed 100mg and the surroundings were me at home, by myself with netflix on. a netflix series on in the background and my other half asleep in bed. - i never use mdma by myself usually.. i did however have the laptop on and a friend talking to me via skype at 1 point. 

 - i will be test driving this clearer glass tomorrow night and will report back? i dont doubt what your saying is right though. might i ask where in the world you are g chem?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

^G_Chem is from a world called 'experience and common sense' - unfortunately a sparesly inhabited world...


----------



## PlayHard

PlayHard said:


> ^ this is product i got from a local source who bought it via DW between christmas - march / april up until around may time when it was no longer available and a close friend sourced this which has a weird off tint / yellow like glass, i was sceptical at first as not a fan of "cola". however this isnt cola, this is the cleaner product ive been speaking of. 90mg/100mg had me in a state of pure bliss. photo below :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (im sorry for this photo not been as clear as the other, this clearly show's these are'nt the same product. off tint yellow/tan like & clear white)
> 
> both very clean and different from each other in terms of high, and comedown.



^ the second photo is the amber/yellow i speak of. and gave me a feeling of sheer bliss, i still have some of this and will no doubt revert back to it after i try the clearer sample handed to me. the smell of the two are very different from each other might i add? the clearer glass is quite a over powering smell


----------



## indigoaura

GChem and Playhard, what you are saying correlates with my observations as well. The new DW MDMA that I enjoyed is off-white in color, and the "sleepy" MDMA is a more pure white. Another sample I had access to years ago that smelled like safrole was a tan color, and I enjoyed it more as well. Sorry I still have not uploaded pics. I will soon.

GChem, your observations about the experience are pretty similar to mine as well.

Wish we could get some more updates from Glubra and see if he has uncovered any other tidbits with his testing. I have not gotten any more updates re: lab testing yet.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, I was talking to another "old-timer." He has encountered MDMA since the 90s, but from a different region than me. He said he had never noted the safrole smell before. Surprising to me, especially considering that he had access during the 90s. But, I think it just highlights how different experiences can be across regions.


----------



## indigoaura

I find it interesting that safrole is also contained in nutmeg, and nutmeg has psychoactive effects as well.


----------



## Doclad

It's interesting.

The batches of MDMA that I have purified with A/B extractions had higher purity than the original substance, but for some reason it was a less potent and less trippy product.


DocLad


----------



## G_Chem

Haha I much appreciate that FUBAR.

And where I live is a few different places but pretty much I hang out along the northern border of the US.  Region definitely does effect what you get by a lot, although having the right connections helps too.  For instance I just picked up a couple G6 presses that are highly regarded from SoCal, around 2000 miles from the source..  It takes a bit of both to work in your favor.

I should also mention I think my summary above could use a little tweaking, it's really hard to pinpoint the exact differences at times.  I feel I may edit the duration part a bit cuz it does seem like the safrole MDMA drops off fast too but there's this residual good feel that allows for additional partying whereas it feels the cleaner not-from-safrole stuff doesn't have that as much.  Hard to explain..

But I find it interesting our conclusions seem to all be very similar to each other's.  I think I may be getting an idea on how the crystals look different too.  Now I could be wrong, but I notice the good safrole MDMA has more jagged/rippled lines and edges with few defined edges and sides, looks more like a rock than a crystal.  The cleaner, still good but not AS good mdma, tends to look more quartz like with a clearer whiter coloration and often a "blockier, chunkier" shape with more defined sides and edges.  It's a look that's hard to describe but I feel the two pics you provide PlayHard kinda show the differences I'm attempting to describe.

My guess is that variation in crystal structure comes down to safrole as an impurity.

I do believe safrole has the potential to be psychoactive.  There's many anecdotal reports to suggest so which I may dig around for and post here.

-GC


----------



## PlayHard

weighed and took 100mg of the clearer sample given to me around 9:10pm. started to come up slowly around 9:50pm. will report back most likely either later or tomorrow with my verdict  i was going to weigh up an additional 50mg of "amber/yellow" safrole mdma incase i felt like redosing but wont mix the two this time round.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Much appreciated, keep the experiment variables to a minimum.  Excited to hear the results..

@Doclad- Yea I've definitely noticed the impurities ramp up the trippy aspect for sure.  This is why even impure MDMA can be sold as "sass" and people think it's MDA.  I actually had a bud a week ago who bought and tried some "sass" that he thought was MDA and turned out it was likely MDMA after I hit it with the Simons reagent.  I've seen a lot of people talk about increased potency as well, DMT is also subject to a similar phenomenon.

And I've got one more comment for you indigo but gotta come back later on that lol, be back..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I'll be here.

Really trying to resist the urge to try more of that DW product. A three week break is NOT my thing. I don't think I have played around with a break that short in well over a decade, maybe longer.

I think the fact that I am here, just three weeks later, eager to do it again speaks to the more authentic nature of the experience.


----------



## G_Chem

I just wanted to add to your comment regarding region and the old school 90's raver talking about the lack of smell.  I do think your right that certain places just never got MDMA made from safrole even in the 90's.  In the mid 90's PMK (MDP2P the intermediate from safrole) became the more common choice for some European labs pumping out the goods, so it's definitely possible.  While European MDMA definitely supplied the US there was also a good amount of domestic MDMA as well, just depended on where ya lived and who you knew.

I'll also say back when I first started some of the pills people did talk about as having a sassy smell but my nose was so fucked back then I couldn't smell shit.  So in my mind if someone had never told me they smelled I would of thought all of it was odorless.  Nowadays I can finally smell the difference, and all except one odd batch that smelled weird and chemically (still have some, never tried it but others said it was good..) has either been odorless or smells of safrole.  I'll admit I'm weirded out by the chemical smelling batch too despite positive reviews.  It looks strange as well with a sandy look with zero crystals, one small chunk was a brown color all of it a sandy consistency.  Thinking about sending it in for testing..

Man I'd say this.. Only roll if you feel you can with everything going on in your life.  Sounds like you hold off well so I don't doubt a short break then back won't be detrimental and won't become a habit.  But also if you feel even a hint of guilt over if I'd say wait.

-GC


----------



## Ideeuht_Savant

maaaaan Le Junk youre old as shit!!! haha jk but youve been doing mdma 12 years before i was born. The roll you described to start off this discussion gave me goosebumps. I think if i tried that stuff, i would cry out of a happiness explosion; or watch tv :/ idk. Honestly really good way of describing this. Obviously havent read EVERYTHING here but yeah some very knowledgeable folks in here. Every time ive done "legit MDMA" it was amber brownish, with the exception of a couple times i got it from a buddy even before that stuff, where it was a blueish green tint. I also havent heard too many people use the term Gacked OUT haha but buddys back home in Portland OR get Gacked like there aint no difference unfortunately... so i'm familiar with the term and feeling. God damn though. That 80's recipe sounds incredible.


----------



## maddee2145

G_Chem did you done a blind test of Safrol vs Not-from-Safrol MDMA? Just ask someone to give you MDMA and you try to guess what it was Safrol or PMK 

And than just calculate how much you was able to guess Safrol MDMA from PMK MDMA.

If from 10 times you will be able clearly to differentiate  PMK from Safrol, experiment would be called clean. 

Otherwise its just subjective speculations.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Nope, and to be honest I don't think I ever will.  That's the hardest part of all this "research" is that much of it will likely remain speculation for quite some time.

The reason I never will and the reason most others won't take on a similar challenge is because when you only get a limited number of rolls in this lifetime it's hard to justify using so many of them in the name of something that quite frankly isn't as important to me as just living my life.

Now if I did take up this double blind challenge, it would take me at least two years, but more like 4-5 for me to complete.  Again not time that either I nor anyone else have.. It couldn't be pushed along any faster or else tolerance would become a major potential issue.

Then there is the fact my above summary is a generalization, MDMA can be made from safrole and feel very close to mdma made from other precursors if the purity is high enough.

If you read what I wrote and come away with the notion there is two distinct groups of mdma (i.e. Safrole mdma vs not-from-saf mdma..) then you need to go back to post 1 of mine..

That's problem number 2.  There is no distinct groups because each batch is unique and two batches could be made from safrole but if one is 60% pure with the rest being impurities VS 99% pure, there is going to be quite the difference between those two despite the same precursor being used to start.

I think all we will ever get from this is a rough idea, this is never going to be an exact science simply due to the factors I outlined plus others I haven't.  Science will always have these barriers and if we say to ourselves "welp I can't setup a reliable double blind, not even worth trying.." then no one would ever get anywhere in progressing our current knowledge base.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Can someone make a v.2 of this thread? I feel it's time but idk if I got the time for it.  We just need a new thread with the first post outlining some of our good discoveries here.  (All experiences and anecdotes related to certain batches being of utmost importance.)

-GC


----------



## maddee2145

G_Chem said:


> ^^^Nope, and to be honest I don't think I ever will.  That's the hardest part of all this "research" is that much of it will likely remain speculation for quite some time.
> 
> The reason I never will and the reason most others won't take on a similar challenge is because when you only get a limited number of rolls in this lifetime it's hard to justify using so many of them in the name of something that quite frankly isn't as important to me as just living my life.
> 
> -GC



Hahaha, true. It would be just the waste of material. 
I probably, the one who can manage such a blind test, because I am those 10% lucky person who not build tolerance to MDMA very quickly. I can take a roll 1  in a week or 2 within a half-year without building tolerance.

But I can never return to a feeling of first trips , aybe first 2 or 3. 

And if someone would told me that this first trips was so perfect because of Safrol-oil as precursors I would totally belived it.

For some reason as you correctly said before not only every batch is different , but every other trip on a same batch could feel different.


----------



## indigoaura

> but every other trip on a same batch could feel different.



There are limits to the variation that you are going to feel within one batch. I say this as someone who has dealt a lot with the same batch. Yes, it can be different, but not THAT different. Experiences within the same batch are fairly consistent, in my personal experience. Set and setting only changes so much.

G_Chem, what do you want to have included in a V2?


----------



## G_Chem

^^^I agree, while there is variation between experiences, I feel the average person can feel similarities from one experience to the next on a particular batch of mdma.

And it'd be cool if it had some of the more important posts throughout this thread quoted.  Your post when you first came in regarding your experience with mdma that has md-p2pol as an impurity is a good example.  Glubra's 3 analysis plus any experiences he has posted as well.  Maybe the OP from LeJunk.  Whatever you feel is important..  I can help once it's made with any additional editing.

Even if we don't do some elaborate first post I feel we should still start a v2 regardless cuz this thread is too big for most to actually go through and great information is getting lost I'm sure.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

https://tonic.vice.com/en_us/articl...netic-disorder-called-cocktail-party-syndrome

Interesting read.


----------



## Goodwalt

Great read, thanks for the share indigo!


----------



## indigoaura

I think what really makes that article interesting is that it casts light on how oxytocin release is a significant factor in the feelings associated with MDMA. So, in relation to our conversation, we should also think about factors/contaminants that may inhibit oxytocin release or impact the pituitary gland.


----------



## G_Chem

That was a good read.  And I agree oxytocin should be looked at more closely than things like serotonin release.  I've done quite a bit of research on the relationship between oxytocin, mdma and the therapeutic effects.  I have a thread on other site with me connecting a lot of dots.

Oxytocin in my belief is the biggest reason mdma causes bonding and it's what gives us that "love" feeling everybody is chasing.  It's sad serotonin has been the primary focus of research.

-GC


----------



## IMightBe420

similar question. a friend had some tabs that were supposed to be molly based. said he took one stayed up all night and the entire next day but never experienced a rolling sensation. decided to try it. took one and it felt like it wanted to kick in but never did. about 3 hours later take a 2nd. After about an hour definitely start to feel something. at first i got a headache and felt weird but after about 15 minutes it started to feel like a liquid was released inside my head and slowly spreading. Thats when i experienced a rolling like sensation. I laid there drowning in the music and enjoying the journey. It was best with my eyes closed everytime i opened them the feeling would slowly fade. It was really intense but this state only lasted about 45 minutes and it was over. I didnt experience the normal feeling of rolling, i didnt wanna chew gum(in fact i noticed myself just clenching my jaw shut tight, didnt want to smoke, and was actually a lil drowsy/tired rather than up and active, and my pupils did not dialate. when i first started taking it 15 years ago everything was so soft and it completely enhanced my mood. I would feel like i was on a roller coaster and my eyes would roll in the back of my head. someone said that feeling comes from a heroin based x and not MDMA but it sas everything i imagined MDMA would feel like... since moving to TX ive never experienced that feeling. some have given me a similar experience but nothing like what im im used to. could i now be immune due to using too much 15 years ago? Other people tell me they roll but its not anything like im used to even when taking a couple its always very subtle. opinions?


----------



## indigoaura

IMightBe420, if you did not test your pills or send them to a lab, there is no telling what you consumed. It could have been anything. There are so many research chemicals and adulterants...

This thread is specifically discussing how MDMA varies from batch to batch even when a lab shows that it is MDMA. You might not have even had MDMA.

The old rumors that ecstasy was "heroin based" are false. There is no "speed based" or "heroin based" ecstasy. In your case, you may have just had a bunk pill. Pills are either MDMA or they are not. Even when they are MDMA, as we are discussing here in this thread, there are variations. 

Invest in a testing kit, or send samples to a lab before you consume. Then you can start to unravel what is going on with your experiences.

PLUR

P.S. (18 years ago, there was great ecstasy in Texas)


----------



## G_Chem

^^^This.

Those experiences sound like something entirely different than MDMA, likely some research chemical.

I second the notion of a test kit to better determine what you actually had.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

*What is wrong with the MDMA available today? V.2*

Since the other thread has outgrown itself over the years, it's time to start fresh.  Give me time to edit in all the best discoveries and posts from both that first thread as well as elsewhere.  But otherwise continue the conversation here please! 

Link to the old thread below...

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/791073-What-is-wrong-with-the-MDMA-available-today

--------------------------------------------



Glubrahnum said:


> Guys,
> 
> Recently, I observed the effects of various oral doses of brownish "Dutch MDMA Crystals" in 4 different VIRGIN  subjects (30 - 60 year old) in a house-party social setting.
> 
> By "VIRGIN", I mean people that have never used MDMA before in their life nor any amphetamines, cocaine nor any anti-depressants nor RC.
> The crystalline powder was determined to contain MDxx by an immunoassay testkit, after 10^-6 mass dilution in distilled water.
> The  immunoassay testkit is highly specific to MDMA, MDA and MDEA but it  does not allow the differentiation between these 3 compounds.
> 
> The 4 oral doses were 100mg, 100mg, 130mg and 150mg.
> The onset of effects happened within 30min of ingestion and was characterized by visible sleepiness, in all four cases.
> 15min into the onset, the sleepiness suddenly receded and remaining effects lasted for 3-4h.
> *No PUPIL DILATION* ( mydriasis ) was observed for 4 hours in any of the subjects !!!
> A slight lockjaw ( trismus ) was observed IN ONLY ONE subject (a 38y, 85kg male and the 150mg dose).
> 
> SUBJECTIVE EFFECTS after the onset:
> Feeling of general well being in all subjects
> Analgesia of chronic back pain in one subject.
> Report of sobering up, in one subject who was drinking ethanol for two hours before ingesting the "Dutch MDMA crystals".
> Reports of euphoria and feeling of having energy ...but all subjects were sitting on a couch for 4h.
> Lucid but introverted ( "mongy" ) behavior in all subjects.
> Reports of hot/cold flashes and transient sweatiness of extremities slightly after the onset.
> No outward talkativeness in all subjects.
> No unusual empathy towards others visible from outside in all subjects.
> Report of increased tactile sensations from one subject.
> Reports of changed visual acuity in two subjects.
> 
> Is the above familiar to anyone here?
> Any feedback is welcomed...





indigoaura said:


> I posted in the other thread, but I wanted to post here as well. Thank you again to everyone contributing to this discussion.
> 
> Your observations line up precisely with my own experience, as well as my time-line. I have had two primary sources for MDMA since 2000. The first source involved local, pressed pills. I had this source from 2000-2005. The characteristics of this source were: 15-20 minute come-up, a "rush," extreme empathy and love, fantastic sex, mydriasis, jaw tremors, eye-shaking, enhanced music, enhanced tactile sensations, "magic." Yes, these pills were sent to ecstasydata and were tested as MDMA. The comedown was generally 1-2 days of moodiness or "emo" depression.
> 
> In 2005, my supplier quit. Also, at that time, there was a large bust in the area and a major distributor was shut down. I had to turn to non-local sources and began to receive powder instead of pills. The characteristics of the powder were: longer 30-45 minute come-up, sleepy feeling, feeling cold, feeling introverted, being in a good mood but no rush of empathy and love, lack of energy. Sometimes there are eye jitters, but as someone else mentioned they don't feel "good." Everything is less intense. The comedown/after-effects is physical with bouts of nausea/indigestion/dizziness but no emo Tuesday. The after-effects last longer. These capsules was also sent to a lab and tested to be MDMA, but with an impurity from the manufacturing process (1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol) (http://www.chemicalbook.com/Chemical...CB92456152.htm ).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, as someone who has a long history of use, there is a question of tolerance. However, other people I know have identical observations and an identical time-line. I also find it odd that my tolerance would magically develop at the same exact time that the supplier changed.
> 
> I want answers. I would love to have access to the same product I had access to from 2000-2005. If there were more complex and accurate tests, I would absolutely send in samples. Although both products were tested as MDMA they feel like completely different products and have totally different profiles.
> 
> Thank you for investigating this.





Glubrahnum said:


> BTW:  I detected traces of Fentanyl in one megadosed X pill lately   ...very weak signal, but unmistakable.



When asked what impurities would result from PMK-glycidate, Glubra responded with the following..



Glubrahnum said:


> Nasty stuff:  Glycidol, Glycidamide, Glycidic acid and various prop-2-enoyl compounds which can be aminated to such things as Acrylamide





Ionized said:


> Ok recent experience with current MDMA dutch salt. Subject has had numerous experiences with MDMA since the 90's and is familiar with the "good old MDMA".
> 
> Substance: MDMA Dutch salt advertised at least 84% pure (salt is tan colored rocks).
> Reagent Tests: Marquis fizzles directly to black (no purple). Mandelin straight to black. Mecke straight to dark green. Simon straight to cobalt blue. Everything looks good to go.
> 
> 00:00 - On a totally empty stomach ingestion of 140 mg put inside a capsule with some water.
> 00:40 - Come up begins of medium intensity.
> 01:00 - full effect: extreme calmness and relaxation but zero uplifting energy. Basically just a strong chill-out feeling accompanied by drowsiness and lot of yawning, too. Seems like pure serotonin release. Pupil dilation is average. It's there but not very strong. Music is enhanced but not even half as much as expected. Absolutely zero feelings of bonding or increased empathy.
> 03:00 - Effects start diminishing.
> 03:15 - Comedown begins.
> 04:00 - pretty much every effect is gone. At this point subject feels almost totally sober. Pupil dilation is much less but remains noticeable.
> 09:30 - Pupil dilation is completely back to normal. Afterglow is minimal and mostly feels like a small dose of Xanax. Lasts for about a day.
> 
> Based on the above observation the effects of the pure Dutch MDMA salt were very different than the typical happy, uplifting, bonding, characteristics of MDMA. Lets not forget that this MDMA passed all 4 reagent tests.





G_Chem said:


> Biscuit I'm glad you made that statement as while there has been changes in the past and various "kinds" of MDMA over the years, the comparison between those was far closer than the crap we see nowadays.  I've been trying to say that in posts past but you said it so much better, really the huge change to sub quality product didn't occur until after that drought.
> 
> When I think of different kinds and eras of MDMA I categorize them as such..
> 
> Before 1990 - (Type 1A)
> 1990 to late 90's - (Type 2)
> Late 90's to late 00's - (Type 1B)
> 2010 onward - (Type 3)
> 
> (Note:  Type 1A and 1B were likely comparable in effect and synthesis but probably varied due to standard dosage differences between the two eras.)  Of course the above is just a generalization and things always vary based on current connections and location.
> 
> The first 3 eras were all considered high quality experiences by most who had them, just each varied from the one before it in ways that could be considered neutral.  The fourth, our current situation, should be compared against all others as it's the only time a majority of the users have felt these negative effects and experiences.
> 
> -GC




-GC


----------



## G_Chem

New thread has been started, please continue the conversation in V.2.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...A-available-today-V-2?p=14387615#post14387615

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

Wow, I didn't think I'd end up eating my words, but here I am, I fully admit I was wrong. I think I may have some useful information here, I'll try to keep this short but it might be a bit longwinded:

So I attended a 3 day music festival this past weekend, and I had not consumed MDMA is over 1 whole year. From the same person I always get my MDMA, a trusted close friend who has a complete test kit with every reagent, as well as access to the festivals free drug testing service that uses $50,000 mass spectrometers.

I purchased MDMA from him for me and my ~dozen friends. It was a brown, sandy, crystalline texture with the faint smell of safrole (not the overwhelming smell of safrole that comes with the very amber crystalline MDMA). I took exactly 100mg of it after taking LSD earlier in the day. It began with a very, very jangly comeup. Lots of anxiety, pins and needles in my limbs, and the extreme electrocution shock went through my left arm as it did the previous year leaving me stunned. This actually prompted me to go to medical and explain that this electric shock happened the previous year, they said not to worry about it since things like heart attack/stroke are a different type of pain and this sounded more nerve related. I also felt it gave me a bit of a stomach cramp, I can't be sure as LSD sometimes does this to me, but it seemed to get worse with the MDMA.

Anyhow, after the lots of sitting down and standing up, I finally got past the comeup and rejoined my friends. But something felt like it was missing. I was certainly rolling hard, but I was sweating a lot, didn't feel like dancing super hard, and was very chatty. So chatty that I actually lost my voice by the morning. All of my friends agreed the MDMA felt both weak and slightly different, a lot of them went to bed early or ended up taking a second capsule of 100mg. It wasn't just me, all of us felt the MDMA wasn't great. Not fake or extremely adulterated, just not great MDMA. We couldn't really put our finger on it. It didn't leave us with any weird comedown or anything. A bit of jaw clenching which is not normal for me. I suspected cut with speed, but was confused as my friend who I got it from always tests MDMA rigorously.

In the morning, I took a sample of that MDMA to the drug testing tent. I explained everything to them and they loaded it up into the mass spectrometer. I'm not even sure how that thing works but it produced a graph of some sort that told them what was in the substance. And to my surprise, it came up as something like 96% pure MDMA with trace amounts of other things that they said was common and very negligible. They asked if I was surprised by the results, but I said I wasn't sure, as it had been a long time since I last took MDMA (in my head I was worried we had all finally lost the magic maybe). They briefly explained that they aren't sure why, and it has happened on previous tests that MDMA comes up as perfectly pure but the subjective effects are different/diminished, they suggested its likely to do with how it was made but they were sorry they didn't have more information for me. 

I then went to talk the friend who gave me the MDMA, I'll call him C. When I spoke with him, he explained that he felt the same and has experienced this same thing as he picks up lots of different batches of MDMA all the time; they all test as fantastic MDMA but some is just better than the rest. He felt bad that our night hadn't gone completely as planned because of it, and brought out a baggy labeled "OG MDMA" and gave it to me. He said he saves small samples of the extremely good MDMA batches he comes across. He said when he brought it to the drug testing tent it tested the same as the other stuff; upper 90's percent pure with trace amounts of what is likely precursor. Its appearance was translucent, full crystals with absolutely no smell at all. I was unsure about this as I'm used to the very good MDMA having a strong safrole smell and being amber in color. He did a quick reagent test of it to show me for the peace of mind that it was MDMA, and sure enough strong reaction for MDMA.

We all took ~100mg of this "OG MDMA" (I took it on top of LSD as I did 2 nights earlier). And it may have been the absolute hardest I have ever rolled in my entire life. As the comeup began I was in the crowd, but I was surprised, the anxiety wasn't really there. The pins and needles I get sometimes were not there either, the music started sounding more and more intense. But I didn't feel hot, sweaty and light headed like the other night. I entered this state of absolute bliss and euphoria, it was like nirvana. My stomach started gurgling in the most euphoric way, like it was rearranging itself into optimal position, I almost thought I was going to shit myself! I actually had to remove myself from the crowd with my girlfriend to walk around to make sure I hadn't died in the crowd and gone to heaven, I kid you not, it felt _too _​perfect it nearly became scary. It was so transparent yet I was SO HIGH at the same time, it was like some magical switch in my brain had been flicked on. When I finally returned to the crowd, the MDMA was potentiating the LSD visuals to such an extreme that the stage visuals were expanding 3d onto the surrounding trees, these beautiful spinning infinite fractals being pumped out by the speakers. It wasn't even in the MDA visual way, it was like the LSD and MDMA fit together like perfect puzzle pieces and unleashed some hidden power within me. The dozen of us were howling and dancing our asses off, kissing and hugging each other. It was almost like an entirely different drug. It was the same idea, but this was on a new level. I had maybe rolled this hard in the past, something about the way the music sounded and the LSD visuals being potentiated, but I had always chalked it up to set & setting as I hadn't experienced 2 different batches of MDMA in such a close time frame.

I ran into C later that night and we immediately started discussing this. Here is what he said to me; "_This shit completely baffles me, all of the batches test the same with $50,000 equipment, yet this kind is like pure magic. The best I can do these days to get it reliably is go by this specific appearance when I pick it up; big, scentless translucent crystals that test as pure MDMA. It's a crude method, but I don't know what else to do. It doesn't make any sense.". _All we could conclude was that the stuff is pure fucking magic, no drug could possibly compare.

The whole crew was out the entire night through to the morning having a blast off of just 100mg. Not a SINGLE negative effect from it. No sweating, no paranoia, no comedown (for anyone, i don't get them anyway), no jaw clenching, just pure bliss, dancing and love. It was FUCKING INSANE.

When I woke up the next day, feeling amazing, I ran to see if the drug testing was still open even if the festival was now over. I got there and they had already packed up and left, I had brought with me a sample of both MDMA's to test. I'll be contacting them sometime this week to see if I can send them the samples for research to get to the bottom of this. We're all baffled by what happened, and I can't stop thinking about it. It blows my mind that even this $50,000+ super computer can't even figure it out either.


----------



## G_Chem

Mmhmm  really good post to start off the new thread by the way!!  That was really informative.

I like how you said "It was the same idea, but this was on a new level."  That's a good way to put it for the differences between "ok mdma" and "wow mdma."  The clearness of the high is why I love really pure translucent crystal, as you said it feels like you've unlocked these emotions more so than a drug creating them.

I love how the bag was labeled "OG MDMA" lol that sounds like me.  That guy sounds like he's been doing his thing for a minute, a good guy to know for sure..  

Also interesting how the testing crew seems to be aware of this phenomenon.  I've looked through many EData entries and I like to look at what the submitter expected it to be because often they submit thinking it may be another substance.  This helps to show just how vast the effects can range for MDMA.  The Dutch testing centers take it a step further and report the effects people experienced as well.  I read one report where it was MDMA but had all sorts of nasty side effects that made it hard to believe it was MDMA at all..

Really excited to hear the test results too.  It really is odd that both samples are likely high 90's% yet feel different.  Either impurities can effect the experience even in minute quantities or there's something going on that we as of yet don't understand, or both...

Definitely update us with their response!

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> Mmhmm  really good post to start off the new thread by the way!! That was really informative.
> 
> I like how you said "It was the same idea, but this was on a new level." That's a good way to put it for the differences between "ok mdma" and "wow mdma." The clearness of the high is why I love really pure translucent crystal, as you said it feels like you've unlocked these emotions more so than a drug creating them.
> 
> I love how the bag was labeled "OG MDMA" lol that sounds like me. That guy sounds like he's been doing his thing for a minute, a good guy to know for sure..
> 
> Also interesting how the testing crew seems to be aware of this phenomenon. I've looked through many EData entries and I like to look at what the submitter expected it to be because often they submit thinking it may be another substance. This helps to show just how vast the effects can range for MDMA. The Dutch testing centers take it a step further and report the effects people experienced as well. I read one report where it was MDMA but had all sorts of nasty side effects that made it hard to believe it was MDMA at all..
> 
> Really excited to hear the test results too. It really is odd that both samples are likely high 90's% yet feel different. Either impurities can effect the experience even in minute quantities or there's something going on that we as of yet don't understand, or both...
> 
> Definitely update us with their response!
> 
> -GC



He's a very good friend of mine, known him for many years. Only other person I know IRL who is as interested in being informed about drugs as I am (not that I know a TON, but we love to get into discussions about these topics). He just keeps a small sample of pretty much every batch of MDMA he acquires to keep on record. The "OG MDMA" he said wasn't even that old, maybe a year. He said its just sort of a roll of the dice whether or not his connections have that specific kind on stock. That said, just like me he has had fantastic stuff that is the amber stinky crystal. But, its this less stinky, dull-amber rocky stuff that doesn't seem to do the trick.

Wish I had some ideas to throw out there on what might be going on but I really don't have a clue. In my heady-inebriated state I had the idea that maybe something is wrong with the trees that the precursor is coming from causing it to create a different isomer or alter the product? Similar to how fruits/vegetables have different nutritional aspects depending on how they've been grown (think of how store-bought raspberries often taste like nothing, but the same species growing in the wild taste awesome). Not much basis in that I know and I'm sure you all have been over that in the last thread. Will be keeping an eye on this thread for updates


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

@G_Chem: that link to the old thread doesn't seem to work...


----------



## EntheoDjinn

Works for me if I copy and paste it in


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

EntheoDjinn said:


> Works for me if I copy and paste it in



Can't be arsed...


----------



## G_Chem

Lol..  Yea for some reason it won't turn into a link for me :/  Although to be fair I'm not super savvy with this kinda thing.

And actually Hilo that's one hypothesis we haven't really discussed.  It theoretically could be possible though that different safrole sources produce varied product.

When people think safrole they instantly think sassafras.. Well there are other sources of safrole all around the world, various trees and plants which contain it.  For instance, Sassafras albidum oil contains around 80% safrole, whereas "Brazilian Sassafras" Ocotea pretiosa is known to be high 90's% safrole.  Then there's also "Chinese" or Asian sassafras as well.  From my memory the other oils that make up the rest of them do vary from one plant source to the next.

It does make me curious because it's obvious based on the residual odor that some precursor oils are making it through.  If the chemist doesn't distill their safrole before using then theoretically there would be variations between them all.

A good example of this is that certain safrole sources also have anethole which is the precursor for PMA/PMMA.  I remember one really well known NL presser (QDance maybe?) that put out really good pills but they showed a few mg of PMMA as well.  Needless to say despite the nearly non existent amount contained people's reactions were one of fear.  Those same pills came out not long after with zero PMMA so they quickly remedied the situation..

Who knows though a little PMMA (I hear it's actually not as bad compared to PMA) or some other substance cpuld be altering effects here..

Interesting to think about especially since the "not so great" product still had a sassy smell.  I wonder if it's more than just a safrole Vs not-safrole debate..

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

Another thing that crossed my mind, that may have been already discussed/easily detectable, was that the route of synthesis produces a product that doesn't digest properly, similar to how certain forms of vitamins pass straight through you. With the not-so-great MDMA I got a nasty stomach cramp, I already sort of had a stomach cramp from the LSD (which I get everytime I take LSD for the first time in a little while), but it made it way worse briefly and never fully went away. It was so bad at one point I almost panicked thinking "oh fuck, this is it, I took some fucked up chemical and I'm gonna die in the hospital having my stomach pumped".

When I told medical I hadn't taken it in exactly a year, something they told me to keep in mind and something they observe, is that your body/brain can react strangely to MDMA if you haven't taken it in a long time. Something to consider when looking at trials involving actual people.


----------



## indigoaura

Hey Hilopsilo, glad to see you! I hate it that you had a lame experience like that, but I am glad you understand what we have all been chatting about. It is one of those things that just seems impossible until you have experienced it. Your story really demonstrates it well because you had immediate access to upper tier testing on both samples, and you had a group who all experienced the same results. So, it wasn't just you, and it wasn't tolerance either (two of the common counter arguments).

I would LOVE to see the full lab report on both samples. There may be something going on with the "common" precursors that are showing up that is impacting the samples (or the user) more than anyone thinks. 

We have not talked about digestion much, but it could be relevant. There is so much evidence being released every day about the significance of the microbiome, the presence of neurotransmitters in the gut etc. If some samples are not making it to the right place in the digestive system to be properly absorbed, that could explain some of the problems people are experiencing.


----------



## wenluojia

I'm quite new to MDMA. And got fascinated by this thread -- reading the reports from the "old" MDMA and how that should feel in theory. Where I live (middle Europe), there is a lot of the brown/champagne MDMA from the Netherlands. It's nice, but not on the level I read people writing about. Found this quotes from a chemist in this article.
_
In Hardison?s experience, clandestine MDMA manufacture always begins with high-vacuum/low-temperature-distilled safrole oil, preferably from China. ?You can get it from India ? lots of places, probably,? Hardison says. ?But Chinese manufacturers, at least some of them, will ship it out mislabeled,? since safrole is on the international watch list for drug-precursor chemicals. ?Just tell them you have some__custom__ problems, and they?ll label it as something else so you don?t hit the watch list.?
Purely distilled safrole oil makes the best MDMA. According to Hardison, the best underground chemists distill their safrole again after they get it from the supplier, ?just to make sure you know what you?re working with.? He learned the technique from the legendary psychedelic chemist Alexander Shulgin, who mentioned it in his book PiHKAL. When I ask him why raw safrole is found in some blends of underground molly, Hardison is quick with the answer: ?They ran out of tinfoil in the aluminum amalgam stage; the reaction didn?t complete. Sometimes people will say that the molly is ?sassy__?,__ like it has that sassafras smell, like that?s a good thing.?_
_As it turns out, it?s not a good thing._
_Hardison is describing the waxy, brownish molly powder I had seen in the gelcaps on Mike?s desk. ?People don?t use the right thickness of aluminum foil in the amalgam stage, or they run out,? he says. ?That?s why you?ll see that brown molly out there. If you fully complete the reaction, there is no safrole left, so the molly will be odorless.?_


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem, thanks for making this version II thread. Do you think that Glubra's raman testing of samples with the 2,3-MDP2P glycidate result should go in the initial post?

Also, seems like we are now seeing that smell is not a trustworthy indicator of quality. At the end of the last thread, it was seeming like the slightly colored crystals with the safrole smell were better than the totally white crystals with no smell. Now, however, we are seeing examples of the opposite. 

And Hilopsilo, when I have had the sub-par product, I have stomach issues as well. Usually, I don't have problems until the comedown though, and it lasts for almost a week. Definitely does something to my digestion that the better product does not do.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Thanks man! I completely agree those should be in too I just have been super busy and I have to skim the pages to find em, hopefully next weekend I can edit in more.

As for your second point I've thought about that as well. A few things...  First Hilo has had many amazing experiences on safrole smelly MDMA too, it sounds like this batch at the festival had a safrole smell to it but still appeared different from the stuff he had in the past.  I'm guessing that while this particular batch was made from safrole it still likely had an impurity which effected the experience negatively.  

Honestly from your comments Indigo as well as what I've gathered from Hilos post, I wonder if there was MDp2pol was in that batch..

The other thing I wanted to say, is that I think it's possible to actually get tolerant to particular batches.  When I grab MDMA I usually grab a few grams so I can become familiar with it.  I notice if I use from one batch too often I become tolerant and find it better to switch it up once in awhile for that reason.  I've read about this elsewhere too, with people getting tolerant to certain Ecstasy batches.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

Recently one of my acquaintances gave me a new sample of the Dutch tan "MDMA" powder to test.
I analyzed it with Raman spectroscopy and XRF and the result was a very pure 3,4-MDMA Tartrate.  Also later, I tested the enantiomer ratio on the better machine and determined it to be 42/58 (R/S), which does not surprise me because Tartaric acid is often sold in non-racemic form.

He has consumed 160mg and reported very positive classic experience with full Mydriasis and without any bothersome comedown.


----------



## LabRatNW

I have some Molls I'm going to freebase and recrystallize out of solvent to see if it helps. Just some cleanup work. My crystals are tan, but I hope to get them sugar white when I'm done. I think the impurities definitely interfere with this drug. The best rolls I've had are always on white to off-white powder. If there's a noticeable difference, I'll post about it.

-Lab Rat


----------



## freesolo123

What is the Consensus then? I don't think MDMA any different its just not sacred like it was when I was growing up its cheap and abused now.


----------



## Glubrahnum

freesolo123 said:


> What is the Consensus then? I don't think MDMA any different its just not sacred like it was when I was growing up its cheap and abused now.


There is no consensus yet due to insufficient correlation between analytic results ans subjective experiences.  
My recent test does not contribute much to solving this mystery because it did not uncover any problems with that particular sample.  My other tests did - however nothing consistent.

Please read carefully the first post of this thread before you allege "abuse" ...or tolerance buildup as an implicit conclusion of this.


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> ^^^Thanks man! I completely agree those should be in too I just have been super busy and I have to skim the pages to find em, hopefully next weekend I can edit in more.
> 
> As for your second point I've thought about that as well. A few things... First Hilo has had many amazing experiences on safrole smelly MDMA too, it sounds like this batch at the festival had a safrole smell to it but still appeared different from the stuff he had in the past. I'm guessing that while this particular batch was made from safrole it still likely had an impurity which effected the experience negatively.
> 
> Honestly from your comments Indigo as well as what I've gathered from Hilos post, I wonder if there was MDp2pol was in that batch..
> 
> The other thing I wanted to say, is that I think it's possible to actually get tolerant to particular batches. When I grab MDMA I usually grab a few grams so I can become familiar with it. I notice if I use from one batch too often I become tolerant and find it better to switch it up once in awhile for that reason. I've read about this elsewhere too, with people getting tolerant to certain Ecstasy batches.
> 
> -GC



So to clarify, I barely got a whiff of the full bag of the not-so-great stuff. It smelled of safrole certainly, as did it test as ~96% pure MDMA, but it wasn't that overwhelming smell of safrole from the amber crystals that literally gives me butterflies (there was a time not too long ago where that kind was plentiful, and it was fantastic stuff). Even fake MDMA I've come across has had strange, fragrant, herbal smells. It's tricky to go by, but sometimes when you know you know. 



freesolo123 said:


> What is the Consensus then? I don't think MDMA any different its just not sacred like it was when I was growing up its cheap and abused now.



Well the confounding part of all of this is that MDMA that tests as perfectly good MDMA is very much not providing the desired/expected effects, even testing with state of the art technology and methods. I didn't believe any of the crap people were talking about in this thread until i experienced what I posted about at the beginning of this thread.

For me its undeniable that there is something going on since on day 1 the 100mg of ~96% MDMA did not provide the desired effects, yet on day 2, AFTER I had already rolled in day 1 mind you, 100mg of a different kind of MDMA that also tested in the high 90th percentile blew my shit out of the water. For some it may be a loss of magic due to abuse or whatever, but I've only ever taken 100mg for the last ~9 years since I started rolling and never had any loss of "magic". Mind you I weighed all of these myself, 100mg on the dot.

An update though, since the event I've spoken with my group that took the same MDMA each day as I did, and we all seem to be on the same page about it; crazy, inexplicable difference in effects. Pretty confused, but also thankful we have access to the good stuff.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> For me its undeniable that there is something going on since on day 1 the 100mg of ~96% MDMA did not provide the desired effects, yet on day 2, AFTER I had already rolled in day 1 mind you, 100mg of a different kind of MDMA that also tested in the high 90th percentile blew my shit out of the water. For some it may be a loss of magic due to abuse or whatever, but I've only ever taken 100mg for the last ~9 years since I started rolling and never had any loss of "magic". Mind you I weighed all of these myself, 100mg on the dot.
> An update though, since the event I've spoken with my group that took the same MDMA each day as I did, and we all seem to be on the same page about it; crazy, inexplicable difference in effects. Pretty confused, but also thankful we have access to the good stuff.


Was there any differences in Mydriasis between them ?

Please save 10mg of each kind for future testing and label them appropriately.


----------



## JG0007

Very long thread. 

Again I am no chemist to bear with me. 

The Q-dance and Iron crosses being the best of the "new" pills 2011 approx. Apparently the price of MDMA dropped soon after than and has dropped a lot since then. This price drop has been reflected on the pill prices too in NL. 

Apparently somewhere along the line there was a new method for them to produce MDMA and it allowed twice the amount to be made. Customs did not know of said method. 
Apparently** being the main word. I believe this to be true as the price more than halved in those few years. 

Also there is a book called "pills of god" and ebook. I am not sure how much of it you would believe but to spoil it for some there was a chinese plant that had shit loads (enough to supply the world with MDMA) of MDP2P which was on a watched chemical list. This dutch guy had a way to chance the chemical structure of the MDP2P to export it and then a way to change it back to MDP2P afterwards. 

Could this be part of what has messed it up?


----------



## G_Chem

@Hilo- Yea I remember all my friends getting sass one time that looked really impure but smelled somewhat of sassafras.  It tested legit too.  They all took it and said it worked but didn't seem like typical MDA effects.  When I eventually got around to trying it I tasted the tiniest bit and immediately spit it out.  The taste was nothing like the bitterness of MDXX.  People must be diligent cuz the fakes can be well done at times.  This was like 5yrs ago though and pretty sure someone was whipping up fake sass with 5-Meo-mipt or some shit like that around then.

@Glubra- So glad to see you again man!!  Thanks for another analysis.  Super interesting that tartrate seems to be the more common salt these days.  This doesn't majorly surprise me as this salt has been fairly common as far back as the early 2000's..  I've done reading that says MDA tartrate is more potent than HCl but why that is has been speculated on.

This good mdma coming from the Dutch also doesn't surprise me as we've seen an increase in positive reports coming from Europe again.  I get the impression chemists are changing the way they do things, possibly based on our conversations.

Hope to hear more analysis in the future as with each one we understand the problem a little more.

-GC


----------



## BlueBull

Since this only creates confusion with people replying in both threads and it provides no benefit I have merged these threads again. Please do not create thread versions on your own. If this is needed, one of the mods will create a second thread and archive the first one. However this is very rare as we have stopped merging threads that run longer than 25 pages, the reason we did this in the past was technical but it is not needed anymore


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> @Glubra- So glad to see you again man!!  Thanks for another analysis.


I was not gone - it's vacation season.



G_Chem said:


> Super interesting that tartrate seems to be the more common salt these days.  This doesn't majorly surprise me as this salt has been fairly common as far back as the early 2000's..  I've done reading that says MDA tartrate is more potent than HCl but why that is has been speculated on.


MDMA Tartrate is more massive than MDMA Hydrochloride, so *more money* per gram can be charged for it.  
If they had gone for the Citrate, then it would weigh even more...


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## Goodwalt

Glubrahnum said:


> If they had gone for the Citrate, then it would weigh even more...


Then why wouldn't they? Citric acid is really easy to obtain, they would have made so much more money.


----------



## Phoenix11

JG0007 said:


> Very long thread.
> 
> Again I am no chemist to bear with me.
> 
> The Q-dance and Iron crosses being the best of the "new" pills 2011 approx. Apparently the price of MDMA dropped soon after than and has dropped a lot since then. This price drop has been reflected on the pill prices too in NL.
> 
> Apparently somewhere along the line there was a new method for them to produce MDMA and it allowed twice the amount to be made. Customs did not know of said method.
> Apparently** being the main word. I believe this to be true as the price more than halved in those few years.
> 
> Also there is a book called "pills of god" and ebook. I am not sure how much of it you would believe but to spoil it for some there was a chinese plant that had shit loads (enough to supply the world with MDMA) of MDP2P which was on a watched chemical list. This dutch guy had a way to chance the chemical structure of the MDP2P to export it and then a way to change it back to MDP2P afterwards.
> 
> Could this be part of what has messed it up?



Totally Agree the Qdance is the last close to real mdma easly obtainedi have tried ever since , The other purist Mdma i tried in 2001 was bec of a danish friend with some really strong connections he is a millionaire after lol i remember it was 80 % Pure ! after testing im a guy who took 2 grams of good ( 50 %) mdma ( thats good to me )  in a jumpy day thanks to my severe adhd lol my body is some how really effecient at metabolizing all uppers along side ketamine and here and there coke , but let me tell you 500mg of that 80 % MDMA alone  took me to a breakthrough and didnt even think about taking a cup of coffe a week after the roll lol ( proves real psycedelic benefit ) no self induced harm or needing more / craveeffect . which concludes that the  sttuuf sold today is pure Garbage compared to the psycedelic effects i got from the reall stuff not even worth buying nowadays in my honest opinion unless you have mighty connection s


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I don't know if this is significant or if anyone else experiences this, but the stuff that I call 'proper' MDMA always gives my vision a lovely golden yellow hue. Everything just glows in this colour. The sub par stuff never does that.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Goodwalt said:


> Then why wouldn't they? Citric acid is really easy to obtain, they would have made so much more money.


I would venture it is due to the lack of creativity or an MDMA Citrate sample did not make its way to me yet.

Also, Citrate samples might have been submitted to other labs, but these labs do not list the salt type in their results so we have no indication of it, besides the need for higher doses.


----------



## G_Chem

@BlueBull- The benefit is people don't have to wade through almost 50pages just to get to the most relevant and important information... Most people get intimidated and say fuck it.  The second thread spurred a lot of new discussion when things were getting stale due to the reasons I just stated.  I can understand you guys want to "prune" but there were obvious benefits to having that second thread.

@Glubra- I understand the tartrate salt should be heavier thus requiring more but there's been rumors for years in the chemistry forum communities that say that at least MDA tartrate is more potent than HCl.  There may be a reason beyond heavier weight that chemists use this salt.

Citrate is even heavier but there's been quite a few bioassays of MDMA citrate online and it sounds to be quite different from the HCl in a way that most common users wouldn't like.  It lasts longer but doesn't hit as hard either, sounds like there may be more MDMA to MDA metabolism going on with the citrate..

Tartrate may be closer to HCl in effect while allowing chemists to make more money off the heavier salt.

Did the guy who took the last stuff have any comments on the experience or not really?

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> @Glubra- I understand the tartrate salt should be heavier thus requiring more but there's been rumors for years in the chemistry forum communities that say that at least MDA tartrate is more potent than HCl.  There may be a reason beyond heavier weight that chemists use this salt.


Yes, there could be pharamacodynamic differences because a larger molecules would penetrate into the bloodstream more slowly from the gastrointestinal tract.  There could be pharmacokinetic differences too, if the MDMA salt doesn't basify upon absorption into the bloodstream or BBB traversal.  Does it ?



G_Chem said:


> Citrate is even heavier but there's been quite a few bioassays of MDMA citrate online and it sounds to be quite different from the HCl in a way that most common users wouldn't like.  It lasts longer but doesn't hit as hard either,


The "hitting" is related to the rate of serum concentration increase, so a slower absorbing salt would not "hit hard" and would last longer.  The same is true about route of administration, e.g. oral being slower than IV...



G_Chem said:


> Tartrate may be closer to HCl in effect while allowing chemists to make more money off the heavier salt.


Could be.



G_Chem said:


> Did the guy who took the last stuff have any comments on the experience or not really?


Just classical positive feedback all around, which does not provide much info for our purposes. 20min onset with 4h duration and Mydriasis+Trismus.


----------



## BlueBull

G_Chem said:


> @BlueBull- The benefit is people don't have to wade through almost 50pages just to get to the most relevant and important information... Most people get intimidated and say fuck it.  The second thread spurred a lot of new discussion when things were getting stale due to the reasons I just stated.  I can understand you guys want to "prune" but there were obvious benefits to having that second thread.


I do not agree this second thread generated any extra traffic. Conversation was flowing quite nicely in the original thread right up until the second tread was created. Also whether the user has to read through 50 pages of information in one thread or 50 pages of information in two separate threads, the consequence remains the same, someone that wants to know everything that has been posted needs to read through 50 pages of info in any case. Whether that happens by clicking on page tabs or clicking on links to the following iteration of the thread doesn't matter at all. An added benefit of having one thread is also that you can use the search function to search through all information at once, in stead of having to search multiple threads

Apart from all that, the reason we created thread iterations in the past was not for clarity or to encourage discussion. It was because of technical limitations having to do with the vBulletin software, those limitations are now not there anymore so site wide rule of thumb is to not create thread iterations anymore. This has nothing at all to do with the prune

In any case, I can understand your position but we will have to agree to disagree. I will not reply to this matter any further to let conversation run its course, this is an interesting thread. If you really want to discuss this further, PM me or another mod please


----------



## G_Chem

@Bluebull- Na I'm good agreeing to disagree..

@Glubra- I don't think it does basify but I could be wrong.  I do think a fair amount is probably converted to the HCl but I'd bet more than enough stays it's original salt form.  Please someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not saying I know 100%.

Ill look around to see if there are any reports on MDMA tartrate but all I have to go on at the moment is a study of impurities and such on ecstasy back in the early 2000's.  They found quite a large percentage of their samples (from my poor memory maybe around 30%?) to be the tartrate salt.  These pills were produced and confiscated in Asia.  To be fair though the large percentage is due to the fact they busted a huge shipment of the same pills, this mdma tartrate was coming from one large scale manufacturer at the time.

I remember reading after the fact of people reminiscing on those pills as being good.  That's about it though..

I want something more than good lol.  I guess in regards to the last experience you talk about, 160mg is a lot if it was pure HCl.  I'd be fucking floored on that..  So probably is weaker by weight as you said.

I'll look around when I got a minute, I'm intrigued that the tartrate salt was found from both Canada and the Netherlands.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> Was there any differences in Mydriasis between them ?
> 
> Please save 10mg of each kind for future testing and label them appropriately.



Yep, I've got the samples, just been very busy since I got back from our excursion, going to contact the testing people soon.

As far as I could tell/remember, pupils were huge both nights. And like I said, the stuff we had the first night wasn't bad, adulterated or fake by any means, simply that its effects were absolutely DWARFED by the MDMA we had the next night, no contest. I still remember the ~dozen of us laughing in absolute disbelief.

Part of me feels this doesn't really have a lot to do with new versus old, both "kinds" are readily available where I'm from, its just a matter of being unable to reliably tell which is which aside from physical appearance. Thats the only advice my friend who gave it to me had, go for the large scentless clear crystals that react strongly for MDMA, not worth risking getting bummed out by anything else.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> I guess in regards to the last experience you talk about, 160mg is a lot if it was pure HCl.  I'd be fucking floored on that..  So probably is weaker by weight as you said.


Under the assumption that only MDMA base is psychoactive, the math says to increase the mass dose of the Tartrate salt by +49% relative to the Hydrochloride salt.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Update!

Been a busy month and just got home and around to unpacking my festival gear thats been sitting in the living room. 

Good news is I've got a few samples of the not-so-great MDMA that tested as 96%. Upon inspection, its the ground up amber-brown  crystals. I emptied the capsules into a baggy and had a sniff, and sure it enough it absolutely reeks of safrole. Bad news is, I cannot find the small sample of magic MDMA that I had set aside, going to ask my friend if he can provide a sample of it since he seems to keep a specimen of every batch he comes across. Working on contacting our regional testing service.

Now I swear that I've had the stinky safrole stuff and its been very good. But, now that I think about it and discuss with my girlfriend (who I always roll with and take the same dose of the same batch), the only other time we had a similar experience from MDMA, where it was that magical, was last summer when we got from a friend of a friend and it was white powder in capsules. We have definitely had amazing experiences with the amber smelly stuff (i think the "96%" stuff we just had was extra not-so-great), but the two experiences with the white pristine crystal stuff certainly do stand out amongst the rest. It's quite possible/likely there is a spectrum.

Something I'd like to emphasize is, and I'm not sure how to explain it and its difficult since I ALWAYS candyflip, but the white crystals potentiated the LSD visuals in a way that the amber-safrole stuff did not. Not only in intensity, and it also just added a VERY specific "look" to everything, theres an image burned into my brain of how the speakers looked from where we were in the crowd (and I know its not just MDA since we tested for that and I've had MDA enough times to easily tell the difference). Everything is suddenly bursting with life and color, my friend described it as "that molly where you look in the mirror at the end of the night and think, god damn I'm a beautiful human being, rather than, oh got I look so fucked up". And I totally agree, I didn't feel extremely intoxicated/"fucked up", just elevated to a new plane of existence (hence me almost thinking I died and went to heaven LOL).

Also, could someone explain to me as concisely as possible what the current consensus on isomers being the culprit here? I'm reading through those early 30's pages that talk about it but am having some trouble understanding what's being said/decided. Sorry I can't be of more help, this shit is just one of those things where I experienced it first hand and feel undying need to understand why.


----------



## indigoaura

> These pills were produced and confiscated in Asia. To be fair though the large percentage is due to the fact they busted a huge shipment of the same pills, this mdma tartrate was coming from one large scale manufacturer at the time.
> 
> I remember reading after the fact of people reminiscing on those pills as being good. That's about it though..



This reminds me of the rumors that went around back in the early 2000s that the good stuff in our area was coming from the Asian mafia. I heard that from several people who provided top notch supply at that time. 

Hilopsilo, you are in a unique position to shed light on this mystery if you can get your hands on that magical sample. If a lab can identify the difference between those two samples, we may be significantly closer to understanding what is going on. Also, if your lab will accept samples from overseas, I could also send in my "sleepy" sample and we could see if it has similar qualities to your unimpressive sample.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Might be old news, but maybe useful: http://countyourculture.com/2011/05/23/mirrored-magic-mdma/

_ Interestingly, they were not – with racemic MDMA quite literally reporting effects more than the sum of its parts. This was borne out by user reports as well. The S(+)-MDMA may have been more potent by weight at first glance, but alone it was more stimulating and lacked the indescribable “magic” of the full racemic MDMA experience.

In general, R(-)-MDMA appears to produce psychedelic effects and has a longer duration relative to the more stimulating effects of S(+)-MDMA. MDMA is an incredibly unique compound, where each stereoisomer has a distinct and centrally active mode of action. Unlike other compounds where one stereoisomer is more potent or responsible for the majority of effects, each stereoisomer of MDMA contributes to produce a full and complex experience.

_So, I'm gonna out on a limb here and say the crappy stuff is heavily S-MDMA, for whatever reason, is now flooding the market (which may be the real mystery here). The potentiation of my visuals, longer lasting effects, and less ampy-stimmy effects from the magic MDMA seems to line up with the description R-MDMA.

Sorry if thats old news and y'all have moved on to figuring out _why_ S-MDMA is everywhere rather than what the problem with it is.

The same problem still exists regardless, how can the consumer reliably tell the difference before they eat the damn stuff.

EDIT: So reading back it seems you all don't think the isomer distribution would have enough of an effect. Although I do like this explanation as its semi-documented and scientific.



G_Chem said:


> ^^Thing is it doesn't HAVE to be the isomers. It could be, but it could also be impurities, polymorphs, we just don't really know.. People thought an R-heavy batch would be the culprit for years, Glubra showed that at least at (62% R, 37% S) the effects seemed perfectly satisfactory. Maybe if it reached 90/10 R/S then it'd start to get problematic but I'm still unsure if it's causing what we're seeing.
> 
> -GC



See just from reading, I was thinking the opposite, as the article described S-MDMA as "more stimulating and lacked the indescribable magic of the full racemic MDMA experience", which pretty much lines up with my experience exactly. It described S-MDMA as more stimulating, but I think people confuse stimmy/ampy with energy. Stimulants like amphetamine or cocaine do not give me energy to dance, they make me stare at a wall wide eyed talking a mile a minute. Again, just from reading, but it sounds like the magic comes from the R. I had 1000x the energy with the magic MDMA, but it was stimulated feeling, it was almost a psychedelic energy, I was so happy and the music sounded so good flailing like a maniac was the only option.

The come-up of the not-so-great MDMA was certainly more intense than the magic mdma, it was almost more intense than the roll that followed. I could see shulgin noting his patients extreme come-up from the S-MDMA and interpreting that as increased potency. But thats back in just guessing territory. The magic mdma certainly still had a big come-up, but it wasn't that extreme fight or flight shit.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> So, I'm gonna out on a limb here and say the crappy stuff is heavily S-MDMA, for whatever reason, is now flooding the market (which may be the real mystery here).


The enantiomer theory has been discussed in this thread many times.
The general takeaway from these discussions is that it is very wasteful economically to make non-racemic product.
Also, chemically it is *not easy* to make a non-racemic MDMA base, but it is easy to make a non-racemic salt from the racemic base by using a chiral acid during the salting process ( such as the L-Tartaric acid ).  Such process is very wasteful, though, because the chiral acid will preferably form a salt with only one enantiomer of the base ...while the other one goes down the drain.



Hilopsilo said:


> The same problem still exists regardless, how can the consumer reliably tell the difference before they eat the damn stuff.



If you want to test the chirality of the substance at home, you can do it by passing a polarized light through the substance to be tested and observing it through another polarizer (e.g. polarized sunglasses).
Watch these videos to see how this is done:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhU-nNiAgtI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3qNc8lUdMU

For testing the intrinsic chirality of S-MDMA use a long glass tube (with glass end caps!) filled with saturated MDMA water solution without the magnet or electromagnet.  The light will be rotated by the chiral substance even without the magnetic field present.

P.S.
Compare the behavior of saturated water solution of Fructose with the behavior of pure deionized water to get the feel of the effect.  Use ONLY deionized water for making these solutions and cleaning the glass tube !!!
For best effects use 2 thin identical glass tubes parallel to each other - one filled with deionized water and the other filled with a saturated solution of the substance to be tested.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> The enantiomer theory has been discussed in this thread many times.
> The general takeaway from these discussions is that it is very wasteful economically to make non-racemic product.
> Also, chemically it is *not easy* to make a non-racemic MDMA base, but it is easy to make a non-racemic salt from the racemic base by using a chiral acid during the salting process ( such as the L-Tartaric acid ).  Such process is very wasteful, though, because the chiral acid will preferably form a salt with only one enantiomer of the base ...while the other one goes down the drain.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to test the chirality of the substance at home, you can do it by passing a polarized light through the substance to be tested and observing it through another polarizer (e.g. polarized sunglasses).
> Watch these videos to see how this is done:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhU-nNiAgtI
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3qNc8lUdMU
> 
> For testing the intrinsic chirality of S-MDMA use a long glass tube (with glass end caps!) filled with saturated MDMA water solution without the magnet or electromagnet.  The light will be rotated by the chiral substance even without the magnetic field present.
> 
> P.S.
> Compare the behavior of saturated water solution of Fructose with the behavior of pure deionized water to get the feel of the effect.  Use ONLY deionized water for making these solutions and cleaning the glass tube !!!
> For best effects use 2 thin identical glass tubes parallel to each other - one filled with deionized water and the other filled with a saturated solution of the substance to be tested.



Thanks for the information, could you tell what the leading theory in this thread is? Obviously there is no conclusion, but it's hard for me to tell what the current leads are amongst so many suggestions being thrown out. Is it that 2,3MDMA is being produced?


----------



## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> Thanks for the information, could you tell what the leading theory in this thread is? Obviously there is no conclusion, but it's hard for me to tell what the current leads are amongst so many suggestions being thrown out. Is it that 2,3MDMA is being produced?



Read from around pages 20-25. There's multiple posts listing the various leading theories.


----------



## indigoaura

I feel like a broken record here...but we need concrete data to determine what is going on. We need samples, user reports, and advanced lab testing. If we could just find a lab that would accept our samples and test for all of these variables (isomer ratios, salts, impurities etc.) then we could start to compile data.

I don't know how I feel about the isomers at this point. The "non-magic" sample that I have does not feel stimulating. It is definitely a sit still, feel cold, don't talk, don't dance kind of vibe. Music sounds normal. Sounds are actually kind of annoying.

Here is a story about this sample. I was at a concert. It was my favorite band. I was at the front of the crowd and had taken 200 mg of this stuff. This should all combine to create a great experience. Favorite band, front row, MDMA etc. But, all I could focus on were the annoying sounds and behaviors of those in the audience around me. I was completely agitated. I felt like fighting people. I could not get into the music at all, and did not enjoy the experience. Now that I think about it, I can recall two experiences like this. 

For me, it doesn't feel stimulating at all.


----------



## psy997

It's not an isomer issue IMO. Maybe to a small degree, but my money's on contaminants and similar.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Thanks for the information, could you tell what the leading theory in this thread is? Obviously there is no conclusion, but it's hard for me to tell what the current leads are amongst so many suggestions being thrown out. Is it that 2,3MDMA is being produced?


I have never detected 2,3-MDMA but I have detected a precursor 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate.

Some years ago the precursors and manufacturing methods have evolved. G_Chem has a good grip on the history of manufacturing changes and precursors.

Like  indigoaura wrote, we need concrete data to determine what is going on. We need samples, user reports, and advanced lab testing. The lab has to be capable of testing for enantiomer & isomer ratios, salts, impurities and crystalline polymorphs.  Only then we could begin to have more than theories.

I don't have access to many samples and good user reports but I can do Raman spectrosopy (usually without the ability to resolve enantiomers).
I wish the user reports on this forum always contained detailed info about pupil dilation (mydriasis).

I have noticed that the "mongy" Molly does not produce much mydriasis.

The knee-jerk response of serous chemists to the claim of existence of bad Molly is user's tolerance.
This attitude hampers serious research, however I have disproved that on Page 21 with an experiment on several virgin users who have never used MDMA nor antidepressants nor cocaine nor any other stimulants.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> I feel like a broken record here...but we need concrete data to determine what is going on. We need samples, user reports, and advanced lab testing. If we could just find a lab that would accept our samples and test for all of these variables (isomer ratios, salts, impurities etc.) then we could start to compile data.
> 
> I don't know how I feel about the isomers at this point. The "non-magic" sample that I have does not feel stimulating. It is definitely a sit still, feel cold, don't talk, don't dance kind of vibe. Music sounds normal. Sounds are actually kind of annoying.
> 
> Here is a story about this sample. I was at a concert. It was my favorite band. I was at the front of the crowd and had taken 200 mg of this stuff. This should all combine to create a great experience. Favorite band, front row, MDMA etc. But, all I could focus on were the annoying sounds and behaviors of those in the audience around me. I was completely agitated. I felt like fighting people. I could not get into the music at all, and did not enjoy the experience. Now that I think about it, I can recall two experiences like this.
> 
> For me, it doesn't feel stimulating at all.



I imagine everyone has already brainstormed every possible organization that could help? I emailed maps and ecstasy, giving them some brief background and asking if they'd be interested in my two samples. Still working on finding out how to contact the more local testing organization.

An update: Talked to C today, and he told me that the bag labeled "OG MDMA" he had acquired maybe 3 or 4 months prior, so it has to still be around. He labeled it OG just to tell it apart from other stuff.

I did some window shopping, and to my surprise I saw hardly any MDMA that has the same appearance as the magic MDMA. Most of it (probably 95 % ) was tan/champagne/purple/grey/brown or even black that is a dusty looking crystal/rock mound, what I imagine is what is described as recrystallized to look bigger. However, I did come across some that was that clear/white solid crystals, and interestingly enough the descriptions touched on this. One mentioned that it was not the "Dutch Dirt" everyone else has, the other referred to other stuff as "crappy Checkpoint MDMA", whatever the fuck that means. Overall, I saw a lot of "calling out" of dutch stuff as being crappy, attempts to distance themselves from that.

The magic stuff, before we crushed it all down to a fine white powder, were these brilliant clear solid crystals.


----------



## Specified

Well I haven't touched MDMA in over two years and have got some stuff from Amsterdam coming in so we shall see how it is.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Ecstasydata emailed me back, sort of the response I was expecting;

"[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Thanks for your email. Very interesting topic(s).[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]To answer main question: probably not. If you have access to a GC/MS, [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]then you can confirm that what you have is MDMA.  Our lab can certainly [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]attempt to confirm your analysis and look for other GC bumps.[/FONT]


[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]As you probably already know, there is ample documentation that the [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]stereoisomers of the entire class (from ephedrine, to amphetamine, to [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]the rest of the molecules of this general size and shape) have clearly [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]differentiable effects in human and animal models.  Including Alexander [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Shulgin's workups from decades ago.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]But few, if any, commercial producers of MDMA ever bother making [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]anything but racemic product because there's no reason to do so. There [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]are boutique and individual chemists who do produce stereo-pure R or S [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]MDMA because it's interesting, but virtually no labs bother to do the [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]stereo isolation necessary. What's the point? It would be costly and [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]would likely yield results of no additional value.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]It is more likely, of course, that some other factors are to blame for [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]your experiences, set, setting, some other minor drug added, etc. There [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]are a thousand explanations that all fit the data you describe that do [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]not require the MDMA be any different.  Small differences in dose [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal](accompanied by differences in set & setting )is the easiest explanation [/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I am extremely aware how deeply unsatisfying any answer like that is.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I spent several years working on trying to get an LSD analysis project [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]started to try to account for the differences in people's experiences [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]from different 'batches' of LSD. It was a remarkable failure, mostly [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]because it was/is approximately impossible to get approval for the [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]expertise level and quantity of analysis necessary to yield clear [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]results and those who have the expertise are either unwilling to do so [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]without proper approval or already work in the deep underground and want [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]nothing to do with published papers demonstrating their expertise :][/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]But, who knows.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]So, we can take a look ($100 per sample), but you're probably looking [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]for an academic research project on a different planet or timeline. How [/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]are you at jumping history timelines and wormholing info between them?[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]:][/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]earth"[/FONT]


----------



## psy997

At least they have a sense of humor, they I would hope they'd have more hope if they read this thread. Did you share this thread with them?


----------



## Goodwalt

Very disappointing response, but to be honest I wasn't expecting much from them. Maybe we have better luck with the people analyzing samples at Zurich.


----------



## Hilopsilo

psy997 said:


> At least they have a sense of humor, they I would hope they'd have more hope if they read this thread. Did you share this thread with them?



I briefly explained whats going on, that I have access to two samples that exhibit vastly different effects RELIABLY, and I'd like to send them in for a deeper analysis. 

I think they got the idea, and I don't think its that they outright don't believe me, they just don't have the resources which is understandable. 

I could reply with the thread, wouldn't hurt, but I don't think they have the time nor patience to sift through nearly 50 pages of whats got a lot of filler and unrelated stuff. A document summarizing the findings (without all the random banter/arguing in the thread) would probably have a higher chance of getting looked at.

Guess we're at a bit of a roadblock here.

But anyways, don't give up hope guys, the good stuff IS still out there and is still being manufactured, just a matter of chance that you come across it. Keep an eye out for MDMA that passes all tests and is in the form of scentless crystals that are so clear you can see through them.

At first I thought posting this would break some rules, but I think its fine. If it does, give me a slap on the hand:

I went ahead and scoured listings looking for pictures/description that match the magic MDMA. I was only able to find a handful amongst thousands of listings that featured full,  clear crystals. The one consistent aspect amongst these listings were that they were NOT from NL and not listed as dutch MDMA. I messaged these listings asking for more information.

I got a reply and had a conversation with the most promising listing. They informed me that the vast majority of MDMA being sold is dutch MDMA, whether its sent from there or just resold domestically (duh, i guess). I asked them what they meant when they said their product was not "Checkpoint MDMA" (which was mentioned on another hopeful listing), and they said that pretty much all dutch MDMA listed is produced by someone that goes by "Checkpoint", they feel that stuff is "dutch dirt", and that their is product is the real deal and produced domestically in the U.S. 

As well, they confirmed their product is completely scentless, which matches up with magic MDMA. 

But I did forgot to ask what precursor they believe was used

I read back those pages you mentioned psy. Something I'm wondering, can MDMA created from precursor that isn't safrole still have that smell? The not-so-great stuff I've got in a bag, something like 300mg loose and it absolutely reeks of sass. 

Is there any evidence to believe the minute contaminant would have an effect really? Or rather, "impede" the high? For example, the not-so-great MDMA tested as 96%. So that leaves 4mg per 100mg to be leftover precursor, which is really not that much relatively speaking.

(I posted to r/drugs my experience in which it became clear to me thats somethign going on with some MDMA, and people are crawling out of the woodwork saying they experience the same thing. Even people who started rolling as late as 2015, they've noticed some stuff just doesn't explode, like a dud firework) https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/9bznyk/some_mdma_is_fooling_mass_spectrometers/


----------



## indigoaura

International Energy Control responded to my initial query with them and expressed interest in our project. They told me they were short staffed in the summer, and to give them more time. After that, I never heard from them again. I will send another email and see if I can get any further with them. 

https://energycontrol-international.org


----------



## Hilopsilo

I couldn't find this discussed anywhere in here, but has anyone considered the possibility of MDEA? It doesn't seem that even a complete reagent kit can differentiate MDEA from MDMA (which is quite alarming tbh), in fact I can't even find that much info on it other than that its "basically watered down MDMA" (which would fit the bill). 

Even on ecstasy data I don't see any reports listing MDEA, are they even able to tell it apart if they're not looking for it?

EDIT: nevermind, i didn't realized MDE=MDEA


----------



## indigoaura

> Is there any evidence to believe the minute contaminant would have an effect really? Or rather, "impede" the high? For example, the not-so-great MDMA tested as 96%. So that leaves 4mg per 100mg to be leftover precursor, which is really not that much relatively speaking.



Correct me if I am wrong, but hypothetically, if a contaminant crossed the blood brain barrier first, and had a higher affinity for serotonin receptors than MDMA, it could basically block the whole experience. Isn't this the theory behind rolling on Prozac? Since the Prozac binds to the receptors, the MDMA cannot bind to the receptors. Even if this contaminant only blocked SOME of the receptors, it would explain why the experience is so dulled. Also, would explain why some things (like jaw movement) are still occurring and more noticeable. Perhaps dopamine activity is still occurring at the typical rate.


----------



## psy997

I have no doubt that even 1% or less of an obtrusive substance could significantly impact the experience like we're seeing here. These are very delicate and complex biochemical systems we're dealing with here, our brains and nervous systems...


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Completely agree psy.

First off awesome work Hilo, that thread on Reddit really got some discussion going..  I don't remember if you did but link this thread in there as I see redditors have been asking.  This movement is growing stronger! 

I look at this in a positive way even if we don't initially discover why..  I think it's good people finally realize there are differences between batches due to changes in synthesis.  If this mentality gets widespread it will eventually lead to new discoveries and answers to the why.  The current/past mentality was no good and led to lots of subpar product but this recent discussion seems to be changing the tides and funny enough the reemergence of good product in certain areas correlates well with this thread..

I'll write more later as lot has been said but wish you guys the best with talking to testing agencies, at the moment their are best hope.  I'll edit in more as I can..

Edit1- What that vendor is referring to with "Checkpoint" MDMA is a producer that puts out a lot of ecstasy and mdma.  Typically they mark their pills with a CP on the back.  Teslas were some of their most famous over the years and are distinguished with glitter and by being Uv reactive.  These pills mainly flood Southern California in the US, although I always thought they may have been a domestic US lab but am not TOO familiar with them..

Checkpoint ecstasy is regarded by many as the best too, but of course those who are saying this have been taking mdma for only a few years.

With that said I'm somewhat doubtful of this vendors claims that ALL mdma is from the CP crew.  Maybe a lot but there's plenty of others like DD (Don't Die) and G6 crews which do fairly well with ecstasy production in the US.  (Mind you SoCal is the epicenter for these crews.  Back in my day Mint crew were the gods from Chi.)  I was able to find a G6 press in the Midwest recently so these other crews make enough product to go places..

I do think that vendor is on to something though.  It seems a lot of Dutch mdma has this similar look (opaque, amber colored rocks that to my trained eye appear similar picture to picture) and could be coming from one super lab.

I'm curious to be trying my G6 press too because it will help me to determine if people in SoCal have any clue what good MDXX should feel like lol.  Sometimes I wonder when I see redditors posting eye pictures of their "dilated" pupils which don't appear all that dilated to me..  If you saw a picture of my eyes while rolling you'd know I was on one without a doubt.

Edit2- Found this while hanging in Reddit.  This guy has been dosing since the 90's and only recently (past 4-5yrs) has he felt a change which seems to correlate well with the change in synthesis..

""I totally agree and have questioned the same theory. From what I've seen online and researches is that dosing 80 to 100mg of MDMA has always been considered the common dose period. I've been using mdma in both forms, pills and crystals since the late 90s. I have definitely noticed that over the past 5 years my experience has drastically changed when I roll. I only roll an average of 4 to 5 times a year max. I have always dosed with half a pill and usually redose the other half within an hour depending on the initial come up and how intense the effects are. It used to be a perfect way to dose, my anxiety would only be caused from the simple thought of rolling in general and would happen before dosing at all. I remember when I'd start to blow up, my anxiety would be replaced with pure euphoria and increased energy. Now I almost always have anxiety after dosing and although it does subside, there isn't that burst of energy, I don't have feelings of empathy, or feel free to socialize with others. This also could be due to my environment. Over the past few years I've rolled at music festivals hoping to feel the familiar effects of the past where I'd want to dance, socialize and feel free from any anxiety. But instead I get a lot of paranoia, and more anxiety. So I wonder is this due to higher initial doses, or does my environment have that much influence on the way I roll. I am actually attending a Festival in a few weeks and I plan on only taking a third of a 180 mg pill. I'm hoping this will have a positive effect.""

Be back later with more 
-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Ok Hilo your Reddit thread may have struck gold..  Now before I continue note I'm not super familiar with what I'm about to discuss.

One redditor commented this..

""So how could the exact same chemical differ from one batch to another, ...well there ain't many ways, but one possibility is the isotopes of the atoms. Maybe one batch has a few hydrogen atoms on each molecule that has a neutron (heavy hydrogen). Regardless if that's the case here, does anybody know if heavy hydrogen would change the pharmacology of a drug?""


After looking it seems small changes in the synthesis can create different isotopes of MDMA.

Reading a paper on isotopes it appears this could effect physiological aspects such as weight/dosage, crystalline structure, appearance, as well as toxicity and pharmacology.

The problem is isotopes from my VERY little reading have even less research on them than polymorphs.  But I'll keep looking..

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Sorry for triple posting but a few more things..

MDEA is no longer around much these days.  It was more a problem in the mid 90's to early 2000's simply because it was left legal longer than MDMA or MDA in certain countries and people produced large amounts which were stockpiled.  MDEA can be differentiated with GCMS as well.

I agree Indigo, and believe in your case this is what is happening.  I'd be willing to bet the MDP2Pol has a higher affinity and can displace the MDMA or in some ways mess with the MDMA to negate the experience.  It wouldn't take much either of certain substances.

That's something people never take into account.  Just because a substance has no activity by itself doesn't mean it won't alter or negate the effect of a substance that does.  CBD and NMT are two that come to mind with little activity themselves but can greatly alter or even negate other closely related drugs.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

I had a chance to catch up with a friend, we'll call him K, who I haven't really seen since that night with the MagicDMA. I sort of asked him to just recount how he felt about the two nights, without probing him with specific questions that might affect his answers, some things he said totally resonate with this thread:

He said that the first night where we took the not so great MDMA, he barely got high at all, period (versus me, I got incredibly high, but not in the right way exactly). He also said that one of the people in our group, we'll call him E, instead took the last 100mg of some MDMA that he got from a vendor back in ~2015 and actually ended up puking (which is historically consistent for E when he takes good MDMA). I didn't realize at the time that E took different MDMA that night, and I do remember a specific conversation I had with him and noticing how large his pupils were and how he was noticeably more upbeat than the rest of us (he actually gave me one of the best compliments I've ever received in my life lol!)

K told me he spoke with Ch and S the next day, both of who we didn't even see or interact with that night, they both said they barely rolled form taking 200mg of the not-so-great MDMA and just went to bed early (and they were outwardly upset about this).

K also said that he thought E was the only person in our crew with dilated pupils. He was almost certain that none of us had very dilated pupils that night, which totally fits with whats being said here. 

K also said that he noticed the MagicDMA took way longer to hit, at least an hour, which is consistent with what I felt and users here have felt. I remember us both questioning if it was even going to work that night since it was taking so long, then boom.

K has probably rolled more times than I, and said that he has experienced the MagicDMA at least 3 or 4 times, one of the times was from an "Orange Tesla" pressed pill in which he said he actually got too high for while that time, the absolute highest he has ever been from MDMA (those also had massive doses though). 

We both agreed it wasn't purely a matter of potency, we feel even taking 3 or 4 points of the not-so-great MDMA wouldn't have made a difference, it was just different nature of high fundamentally. Still a roll definitely, but a shadow of what it should be.

Neither of us know shit about chemistry, but we're both a bit skeptical about the contaminants thing but I guess its possible. To me, it makes most sense that the molecule is altered in some way, like its not binding in the brain right or not being uptaken by the brain right. This is purely based off of the way it made us feel. From the not-so-great MDMA none of got any bad comedown or hangover, just disappointing "dud firework" effects (although neither of us have ever gotten any negative effects from MDMA in the form of a comedown or hangover, period). No afterglow from the not-so-great MDMA, just a sad realization that we had maybe lost the magic, which was transformed into a burning desire to find out what the FUCK is going after taking the MagicDMA 2 nights later.

For the contaminants/precursor theory we need to confirm that the confirmed leftover precursor is active at such a low dose. It would just seem too coincidental that leftover precursor disrupts the action of MDMA in such a specific way.

On another note, reading back I realized that LeJunk said their good stuff is also a clear crystal. To me thats the only safe-ish bet right now.

EDIT: https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/addiction/mouse/ Watch the "ecstasy" module, probably the most intuitive explanation of how MDMA works I've ever seen. Maybe it'll spark some ideas! again, I know nothing, but if the MDMA molecule is altered slightly, maybe its not accepted by the receptor properly? Gets stuck somewhere weird? Also in the LSD module, it says there are several types of serotonin receptors in the brain, maybe the bad MDMA is acting on the wrong receptor or set of receptors?

Also, I sent the thread to people who were interested on the reddit post. Didn't want to bring the entire reddit banter (i.e. the people suggesting the first night i had serotonin syndrome taking LSD as well, and THATS why the MDMA didn't work...)


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> MDEA can be differentiated with GCMS as well.


...by Transmissive IR and Raman spectroscopy, too.
Because MDEA is not an isobary of MDMA, it can be easily differentiated by GC/MS, too

Hilopsilo could send his two wildly varying samples for proffesional NMR analysis e.g. to http://www.process-nmr.com/price sched.htm , without asking the lab for spectrum interpretation, so they do not realize what they will have been analyzing.
NMR is pretty accurate but it cannot resolve enantiomers.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Didn't want to bring the entire reddit banter (i.e. the people suggesting the first night i had serotonin syndrome taking LSD as well, and THATS why the MDMA didn't work...)


At least give the poor unfortunate souls some gold nuggets from this thread, such as this:
The Post# 14272986


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> ...by Transmissive IR and Raman spectroscopy, too.
> Because MDEA is not an isobary of MDMA, it can be easily differentiated by GC/MS, too
> 
> Hilopsilo could send his two wildly varying samples for proffesional NMR analysis e.g. to http://www.process-nmr.com/price sched.htm , without asking the lab for spectrum interpretation, so they do not realize what they will have been analyzing.
> NMR is pretty accurate but it cannot resolve enantiomers.



So basically make it so they don't realize i've sent them illegal drugs lol? Having a hard time telling how much it would cost for the two samples and the info we want. 



Glubrahnum said:


> At least give the poor unfortunate souls some gold nuggets from this thread, such as this:
> The Post# 14272986



Ok I missed this post, thats very interesting and definitely seems like the most likely theory here, I feel like thats on the money. I've sent this to my friends who are also interested in this, and experienced it with me.

EDIT: Eww at those 3 cathinones.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> So basically make it so they don't realize i've sent them illegal drugs lol? Having a hard time telling how much it would cost for the two samples and the info we want.



The low cost option would be:
$56 per sample for: "Standard 1H Analysis (No analysis/interpretation of data/assuming sample not limited (>2 mg))"
and
$25 per sample for: "FTIR-ATR" 
...but note that the latter might need a 2mm crystal.

The mid-cost option would be:
$256 per sample for: "Standard 13C Analysis (No analysis/interpretation of data/assuming sample is not limited (>300 mg))"
...but note that >300 mg is a big sample.
$80  per sample for: "Standard 1H-13C DEPT (No analysis/interpretation of data)"

Once you have the 1H and/or 13C NMR as well as IR spectra, you can post them publicly for the myriad experts to interpret...

P.S.
Catecholamine is a benign substance that is similar, so you might declare it as such in case anyone asks.


----------



## G_Chem

I will say as well my best experiences have been of clear crystal.  Although I've had some good experiences lately off product that was a bit amber as well..  Up until recently most all of it has been scentless or the most minute safrole smell upon cracking open a crystal, I should also note I get told all the time that the MDMA I come across is "the best they've ever had" but always wrote that off as people just getting shitty drugs other than MDMA..

Well Hilo, this MehDMA (lol I like it) you have seems to correlate well with the crap product others have complained of.  In fact it sounds like you have a prime specimen, hang onto that for sure.

I also have to say I believe the U.K. Culture of dosing large amounts of MDMA comes from the fact it's garbage like what you have Hilo.  There's no way people could be "boshing" more than 250mg of the good MDMA in one go unless they've been doing it for years.

In regards to the isotope thing..  I was reading about isotopes of other substances.  One is called "heavy water" which is an isotope of regular water/h2o.  It's interesting in that it doesn't act like normal water, seedlings can't germinate in heavy water among other things.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to theorize that an isotope of MDMA could be the problem here considering we are talking about 96% purity.

With that said, I'm not so sure I'd completely write off contaminants.  For instance adding just a few percentage of CBD to pure THC will alter it.  96% THC with 4% CBD will feel different than straight THC despite the fact CBD has little psychoactivity by itself.  Same with adding a little bit of NMT to DMT.  This second example I have personal experience with and love DMT with a small percentage of NMT.

I'd like to hear from someone that knows more about isotopes, cuz I don't know shit..

One more thing, that Orange Tesla may have been a CP (checkpoint) press.  They are highly regarded and Teslas are known to be the best.  They've also been around for many years and have many copycats (this very well could be a copycat too.)  Copycats these days are often still MDMA but many times are underdosed from the originals.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> The low cost option would be:
> $56 per sample for: "Standard 1H Analysis (No analysis/interpretation of data/assuming sample not limited (>2 mg))"
> and
> $25 per sample for: "FTIR-ATR"
> ...but note that the latter might need a 2mm crystal.
> 
> The mid-cost option would be:
> $256 per sample for: "Standard 13C Analysis (No analysis/interpretation of data/assuming sample is not limited (>300 mg))"
> ...but note that >300 mg is a big sample.
> $80  per sample for: "Standard 1H-13C DEPT (No analysis/interpretation of data)"
> 
> Once you have the 1H and/or 13C NMR as well as IR spectra, you can post them publicly for the myriad experts to interpret...
> 
> P.S.
> Catecholamine is a benign substance that is similar, so you might declare it as such in case anyone asks.



So in any case, how much of each sample do I need to provide? Plenty of the MehDMA, but I only have a really small sample of the MagicDMA (probably no more than 20mg), I can try to get more but I'm not sure if any is left now.

EDIT: confirmed there is more of the good

And G_Chem, about the dosing thing, to my dismay I found that on that last night someone in our group who was given 2 x 100mg of the MagicDMA, who was supposed to give one to her partner, decided to take both herself and gave her partner her leftover 100mg of the crappy stuff from the first night. I just found this out and really bums me out that she did this and I don't know why, since I made it clear to everyone i didn't want them taking the MehDMA and thats why I sought out new stuff. 

And once again, that person that got stuck with the MehDMA again was the first to call it a night. 

She seemed just as high as the rest of us, but I guess she took twice as much. So people can and do take more than they need (or in this case, deserve) I imagine there is probably diminishing returns past a certain point. For me, the 100mg felt like it was giving me everything my brain possibly could, I can't imagine being higher than that.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> In regards to the isotope thing..  I was reading about isotopes of other substances.  One is called "heavy water" which is an isotope of regular water/h2o.  It's interesting in that it doesn't act like normal water, seedlings can't germinate in heavy water among other things.
> 
> I'd like to hear from someone that knows more about isotopes, cuz I don't know shit..


First of all, not all isotopes are radioactive.
Theoretically, isotopes are identical chemically, that is: they form the same chemical bonds, however practically the hydrogen bonds are a little weaker than deuterium bonds.  The most difference occurs in the physical properties, especially density and mass, so mass spectrometers are ideally suited to detecting this difference.

The largest difference between non-radioactive isotopes occurs between hydrogen and deuterium.  Watch these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUVzb0fzHsk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyK6kPi8k78
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXHVqId0MQc

It is worth noting that heavy water can be heavy because it has been made out of heavy hydrogen (deuterium) and/or heavy oxygen ( O18 ).  It is possible to make water with tritium, too...but such compound is radioactive.

It is very difficult to alter the isotope ratio found in nature. There are almost no chemical reactions that do that.  Practical isotope enrichment or separation processes use some form of physical mechanism, e.g.: centrifuging, calutron, gas diffusion, electrolysis.

Because of this, it is highly unlikely that any MDMA manufacturing process would alter the natural isotope ratios. If there was such a chemical mechanism then its product would be worth much more than the MDMA itself and it would be immediately detected by even the crudest mass spectrometer.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> So in any case, how much of each sample do I need to provide? Plenty of the MehDMA, but I only have a really small sample of the MagicDMA (probably no more than 20mg), I can try to get more but I'm not sure if any is left now.


Every lab has different sample requirements, so you should contact them and ask about the minimum mass, size and form (solid, liquid)
IMO the H1 NMR should not require more than 5mg.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> Every lab has different sample requirements, so you should contact them and ask about the minimum mass, size and form (solid, liquid)
> IMO the H1 NMR should not require more than 5mg.



Great, I'll inquire on there website, figure out the cost and maybe try to crowdfund that or something.

Skyped with my friend T today, who I haven't seen since that weekend, and he had pretty much the same things to say as K. He ended up taking another 100mg on the very first night of the MehDMA after the first 100mg just didn't do the trick, which unsurprisingly didn't "fix" it, just amplified the given set of effects. He said he was very high, but just not in the right way. We both agreed we're not really interested in taking MDMA period unless its the MagicDMA as its such a letdown when its not. Which once again leads me to this idea that its not a matter of potency, as its different set of subjective effects; the intensity itself isn't simply increased or decreased.

Here's a reply to the thread I made on reddit about the 23 substances, this person seems knowledgable and I encouraged them to chime in over here:

"Just by looking at these I'm gonna say none of them are active _with_ similar effects in a similar dose range _and_ produce the same test kit reactions. There's also the problem of precursor traces that are found in the final product and synthesizing something other than MDMA will also leave a different side-product "fingerprint". I'm going to rule out a conspiracy by forensic analysts, that's just... no.

I've read through that thread a bit and how people describe the differences, and from my experience some rolls are more like one type and some are more like the other type, even if it is the same batch. Tolerance is the most prominent factor in this. Most of my rolls are a mix of the two, with effects from either variant; I wouldn't say I ever had the bad stuff and I've first taken MDMA in 2010, a point in time where the good stuff supposedly didn't exist anymore. But I've built up a massive tolerance in the past, so I know what it's like when you take 500mg with little effects, and it sounds pretty much like how the bad MDMA is described.
I would be careful going by personal experiences of old-timers who've taken it 20+ years: MDMA isn't particularly known for its benign pharmacology and cumulative lifetime doses are correlated with cognitive impairment and neurotoxicity. When people say good MDMA stopped being produced in [year] it seems more like that's when they built enough tolerance for effects to noticeably diminish, and project this into "bad" MDMA.

So I don't know why the differences, but I definitely think you're taking the same MDMA as ever."


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Tolerance is the most prominent factor in this...
> I've built up a massive tolerance in the past, so I know what it's like when you take 500mg with little effects, and it sounds pretty much like how the bad MDMA is described.


A typical "knee jerk" response.
You should counter this with the citation of the experiment I have described in this post:
Post# 14220371


----------



## PlayHard

PlayHard said:


> weighed and took 100mg of the clearer sample given to me around 9:10pm. started to come up slowly around 9:50pm. will report back most likely either later or tomorrow with my verdict  i was going to weigh up an additional 50mg of "amber/yellow" safrole mdma incase i felt like redosing but wont mix the two this time round.



been awhile since i posted on here or even logged on. nice to see convo still flowing away nicely, got a few pages to read


----------



## psy997

I've never built up a tolerance for empathogens and I've had 80% of my MDMA experiences in the past 2.5 years be the shitty stuff. And, it's all different, too. Some of the shitty stuff is closer in some ways while worse in others, while other batches better in other areas and worse again in others.

Once it came on super strong in 30 minutes, strong effects but not as much empathy and general joy/love as would be expected, though a good amount of tactile and sensory pleasure, and then around the T+3/5-4hr mark, sharply came down within a period of minutes.

I've had stuff that came on with and lasted in accordance with the timeline MDMA should have, and just did not feel lovey unless you really made yourself go there.

There's numerous things at play here IMO. Or at least, a wide variation in the effects of a single variable.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> Every lab has different sample requirements, so you should contact them and ask about the minimum mass, size and form (solid, liquid)
> IMO the H1 NMR should not require more than 5mg.



So if I go ahead with this, I basically gotta just cross my fingers and hope they don't ask any questions? Seems sort of risky, I wouldn't want to get in trouble. A reply to my thread on reddit said "If you can find a lab willing to do a NMR that would be optimal. Unfortunately the times when I could send random samples to the NMR room without questions are over"


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> So if I go ahead with this, I basically gotta just cross my fingers and hope they don't ask any questions? Seems sort of risky, I wouldn't want to get in trouble.


It would be advisable to send the sample in a professionally looking small nylon vial (they are available in my local pharmacy) labeled with printed labels - not handwritten.
It's best if the sender is a business with "research" or "engineering" or "tech" or "bio" word in it...
If the results are downloadable or sent by email then the return snail-mail address does not matter (opt-out of sample return of course).

Remember that plain NMR will not give you info about the enantiomer ratio nor direct info about the salt type because common NMR will only resonate the Hydrogen and Carbon nuclei and bonds, so the bond with e.g. the Chlorine in Hydrochloride has to be inferred indirectly.
I use Raman spectroscopy to discover those directly.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Woah woah woah, big update.

So I finally got ahold of the organization that tested my sample of the MehDMA that came up as something like 96%. I was wrong, they did not have a mass spectrometer, they had FTIR, which uses infrared and is apparently not as in depth nor as accurate as GCMS. They mentioned FTIR only detects stuff above something like 3%. 

Bad news is they cannot pull up the report on my substance since I do not have the substance ID # (it's an anonymous testing service). Good news is, they told me that in my city, there is a substance testing center downtown that uses more in depth methods and may be able to help me out.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> they did not have a mass spectrometer, they had FTIR


FTIR is an acronym for Fourier Transform Infra Red analysis.
It is a fast and decent analysis technique that shines infrared light THROUGH the sample and notes which wavelengths of the light get absorbed, in other words, it takes an IR absorption spectrum of the sample.

FTIR does not require sample preparation if the sample is transparent and consists of large crystals, otherwise it requires KBr sample holders.

Adding just two light polarizers makes this analysis technique capable of resolving enantiomers !


Yes, it might not be very sensitive to low concentration contaminants but it is cheap and a used machine can be had on eBay for $500, for example see:  *this machine*.


----------



## Hilopsilo

HUGE NEWS GUYS!

So I took my samples downtown to the local drug testing center where you can safely and anonymously test your drugs. They only had FTIR there, but I spoke with the lead technician there, and they offered to send in my samples to the NMR at the nearby university that they work with. They were very interested in all this and wanted to help in any way they could!

They ran the samples on the FTIR and same results as before, both come up as MDMA only. 

They packaged both samples up and they will be sent to the NMR next week. They told me I can expect results in ~2 weeks. They also said to email them any specific info they need or specifics about the testing we want done, etc.


----------



## trogere

Hilopsilo said:


> HUGE NEWS GUYS!
> 
> So I took my samples downtown to the local drug testing center where you can safely and anonymously test your drugs. They only had FTIR there, but I spoke with the lead technician there, and they offered to send in my samples to the NMR at the nearby university that they work with. They were very interested in all this and wanted to help in any way they could!
> 
> They ran the samples on the FTIR and same results as before, both come up as MDMA only.
> 
> They packaged both samples up and they will be sent to the NMR next week. They told me I can expect results in ~2 weeks. They also said to email them any specific info they need or specifics about the testing we want done, etc.



Wow, that's cool


----------



## G_Chem

Dude hell ya!  Great job and excited to hear the results 

Well ask them if it's possible for them to check the isomer ratios and/or any impurities above .5% total weight.

I'll be watching!

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Well ask them if it's possible for them to check the isomer ratios and/or any impurities above .5% total weight.


Don't forget about the salt type - it greatly influences the dosage ...at least.

NMR will have a hard time differentiating between enantiomers but spotting the difference between *these structural isomers* should not be a problem for it.


----------



## G_Chem

^Ah thank you Glubra I knew I was forgetting something..

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

They emailed me back this morning saying that they'll do GC/MS as well, and if theres anything else we'd like them to find out about the samples specifically to just shoot them any email. Really happy about how enthusiastic they are about this, they're probably just bored of testing heroin all day and having it be fentanyl over and over lol, finally something new.

Really wish the U.S. would catch up and offer services like this, when I was waiting in line I was seeing it save lives as multiple samples of fentanyl contaminated heroin were being thrown out for users.


----------



## BlueBull

psy997 said:


> Read from around pages 20-25. There's multiple posts listing the various leading theories.


Sorry to reply to this so late but I have a tip for you. If you want to directly link to a post, the link to it is in the post number at the top right side of the post. If you right click on the post number and click 'copy link' or something similar, that will give you a direct link that takes someone that clicks it to that post on that page. Really handy to quickly reference a particular post

As an example this is a link to the post I quoted above

And here is where the link is hidden


----------



## psy997

And I'd rather not have to go back and read five pages myself to link someone, BlueBull. Someone's having to do it over and over because we don't have you know what...


----------



## indigoaura

Wow, Hilopsilo!

Super exciting news! I can't wait to hear what the lab says. I will be watching this thread like crazy!


----------



## indigoaura

Will your lab accept a sample by mail, Hilopsilo?


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> Will your lab accept a sample by mail, Hilopsilo?



Mm, probably not tbh, especially non-domestic. Basically, downtown there is a huge heroin/fentanyl crisis and their main purpose is to test that and make sure people don't die. I was pretty out of place bringing them an MDMA sample, its a sad site at their facility (it's also a safe injection site). I don't believe they really have the resources to start testing tons of MDMA, but once I get the results I can inquire. 

Don't have a chem background but I'd love to land a job with them, interesting field and saving lives.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Basically, downtown there is a huge heroin/fentanyl crisis and their main purpose is to test that and make sure people don't die.


Fentanyl or Carfentanil mixed with MDMA would be almost undetectable (because small doses are active due to its extreme potency) and such mixture would yield mongy subjective effects.


----------



## Goodwalt

It seems odd that a mdma chemist would add fentanyl to his product. Its the complete opposite effects of what his users are trying to achieve.


----------



## Microgram

Goodwalt said:


> It seems odd that a mdma chemist would add fentanyl to his product. Its the complete opposite effects of what his users are trying to achieve.



Doesn't feel like an opiate either, or have opiate side effects. 


I'm dying to know what's in this new MDMA. I recently got some pills, tested right on the 5 reagent tests and a lab test also confirmed MDMA only, but it wasn't a great experience at all. No euphoria, no energy, insomnia and threw up. This is the same experience each time I've tried MDMA or pills for the last 5-6 years.

The lab previously said their methods are: HPLC coupled with ToF; HPLC; GCMS; Melting Point; UV absorption and NMR. I don't know which test was performed on the pill.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Goodwalt said:


> It seems odd that a mdma chemist would add fentanyl to his product. Its the complete opposite effects of what his users are trying to achieve.


Yes, it makes no sense for a chemist but contamination by poly-drug dealers is possible.

Also, flooding the market with mongy meh-MDMA it is an excellent technique for discouraging people from using MDMA, ...especially the new users.
Do you think there is a group of influential people that does not like the effect that real 3,4-MDMA has on PTSD and depression patients and on society in general, just like there were influential groups that disliked the effects of LSD in the 1960s.... ?


----------



## psy997

I wouldn't be surprised, especially with what's happening with fentanyl being found in methamphetamine as well as cocaine.


----------



## Microgram

Is the MDA any better or does that suck too?


----------



## Hilopsilo

Not sure tbh, I've only had proper MDA a handful of times. 2 of the times i think I was just sold regular MDMA or a mixture of the two, since the effects just seemed like regular MDMA. 

2 times I've had 100% confirmed MDA , the first time was from a vendor in 2015 and it was utterly fantastic, nothing "wrong" with it. I remember thinking I would never take normal MDMA again since it was so much fun, but it left me with this stimmed out feeling that kept me from sleeping for ages, that tossing and turning trying to sleep and it just doesn't happen. The second time, I took it with LSD and it got almost too trippy, decided I prefer pairing MDMA with LSD. Again, MDA left em with this sort of hangover, nothing emotional, just sort of cracked-out-can't-sleep feeling.

It's harder to tell with MDA since the psychedelic aspect is sort of magical in and of itself, yknow?


----------



## Glubrahnum

@G_Chem

Could you draw dashed vertical lines on this graph to denote the different eras like: the piperazine era, mongy meh-MDMA era, etc... ?

The 2007-2008 period seems to have the classical doses described by Shulgin.
The dip was evidently caused by some shortage and the increased doses must be caused by the MDMA being less potent because the human pharmacology could not have changed that much.

@Anyone
Do you have the data to continue this graph up to 2018 ?


----------



## Hilopsilo

IMO part of pills being dosed so high has something to do with DNMs and how widely available it is, the sheer amount of people trying to sell off their MDMA has driven the price down so i guess why not pack pills with more so you can stand out.

Replies still rolling in from the reddit thread, I'll just post anything that sounds remotely scientific in here:
_"It could be a positional isomer- mdma with the amine on the benzylic carbon (1-benzodioxyl 1-(methylamino) propane or something) would have the same molar mass as MDMA."_


----------



## Glubrahnum

Microgram said:


> Is the MDA any better or does that suck too?


I don't know about subjective experiences lately, but MDA is proven to be neurotoxic above 1mg/kg.
MDMA is not proven to be neurotoxic by itself, it is suspected to be though, because 10-15% of it is metabolized to MDA.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> IMO part of pills being dosed so high has something to do with DNMs and how widely available it is, the sheer amount of people trying to sell off their MDMA has driven the price down so i guess why not pack pills with more so you can stand out.


That would be an expensive pissing contest for the manufacturers.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

For me same problem really.  Get visuals and that cool jump/flip editing visual thing (sorry don't know how to explain it), but low on energy and euphoria like the crappy mdma.  Also, the doses of mdma that i've tried recently in a desperate attempt to boost things, have just given a similar roll to mda (I believe because mdma partly metabolises to mda?).

Edit: sorry, missed the quote - this was a reply to the question about mda


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> That would be an expensive pissing contest for the manufacturers.



Take a poke around a DNM and check out just how cheap the stuff is, even the smallest DNM's have 5000+ listings for MDMA


----------



## G_Chem

@Glubskis- Yea man I can at least give a good rundown again of the various era's.  Unfortunately I'm not on a computer so not sure if I can edit that image but I'll try.

That huge dip came from a MONSTER safrole bust in Cambodia I believe.  I'll have to recheck the facts but pretty sure it happened in 2007.  The amount of safrole seized and destroyed was enough to supply the whole world for YEARS.  The piperazine/mephedrone era was the aftermath of this bust.

In a big nutshell..

80's- Type 1
90-Mid 90's- Type 2
Late 90's to late 2000's- Type 3
2010 to Present- Type 4

Now before I proceed remember these are generalizations.

Type 1 was likely very clean MDMA  probably often from Al/Hg reduction, ketone often made in house from safrole.

Type 2 was semi clean MDMA made in Europe in massive batches (million doses at a time massive) via Leuckart reaction.  Towards the end of this period labs went from making the ketone themselves to purchasing large amounts already made from China and elsewhere.  Leuckart reaction seems to have produced a product with more stimulation hence the birth of dance culture and the absolute NEED to dance which isn't as apparent when looking at the other era's.  Also the dosages for this period were strangely very low when comparing dosage to the effect given.  35-75mg would have people rolling hard for 4-6hrs..

The end of this era came from two possible variables or a combination of them both.  -1)  Labs went from synthesizing the ketone in house from safrole to purchasing large amounts from China and elsewhere. (A magazine at the time even wrote in an article how safrole mdma has more of a "natural rush" than from straight ketone, whatever that means.) -2) The Leuckart reaction fizzled out as other higher yielding cleaner methods took its place.  This also happened because chemists other than speed manufacturers began making the drug, and the Leuckart is a common amphetamine synthesis.  (The legendary oxblood is likely from the Leuckart.)

I'm not sure which variable causes the change but something did change and happen.

Type 3 marked an era of fairly clean MDMA probably synthesized in a manner similar to Type 1, the only problem is that ecstasy pills often had more adulterants than ever before.  Meth/MDMA pills were more than common and harder to avoid.  Dosages were also smaller than ever before too.  Piperanol started to show its face more during this period of time as a replacement for safrole in certain regions.  This period probably had the most variation as there were many small labs pumping out product all over the place.  It was also during this period that the way MDMA was sold began to change, from pressed ecstasy tablets to pure powder/crystal.

Unfortunately we know fairly certainly how this era came to its end.  The safrole bust in Cambodia in 2007.  The full effect of this bust wasn't felt until 2009.  Sadly this was when piperazines flooded the market and people in Europe took to mephedrone like flies to shit.

It was during this time that many labs probably came to the realization that another precursor must take safroles place.  This is when piperanol and PMK glycidate began to take off.  Piperanol is easier/safer to source and PMK glycidate is much easier than straight ketone to import.  And with that Type 4 was born.

Type 4 is commonly found as both presses pills and crystal.  The purity on average is probably lower than ever before simply because of the change in the way it's sold.  Leaving impurities means more money for the seller because more weight, instead of selling per pill.  Often it's made from PMK glycidate which is made from piperanol.  Also it appears based on Glubras findings that the tartrate salt is being used over the HCl.  It's apparent these changes negatively effected the MDMA experience but on the plus side things have been turning around in the last year or two as reports of good quality mdma start to surface once again from old timers who were labeled as "burnt out."

Now despite much of today's MDMA being made this way it should be noted that if synthesized and purified properly I doubt there's much of noticeable difference, unfortunately that's not the case and very few labs put out really pure product.


There you have it, that's the best rundown I can give..  I can't say I know the answers as to why but damn if there ain't a huge correlation between people's complaints that things have changed and actual changes in the synthesis.

Edit- To the guy asking about MDA... I'll say this.  MDA is a rarity in parts of the world where PMK glycidate is most commonly used.  Typically costing 2x more than MDMA.  Many people in Europe have only tried MDA a few times.  These areas also correlate with people's complaints.

Areas where MDA is common, it seems the complaints are less or nonexistent.  For instance there's no crappy MDMA in my neck of the woods, but also MDA is even easier and cheaper to find.  MDA around here, unless it's like glass purity, will run about 75% of the normal MDMA cost.

So it is my belief that where you find MDA plentifully you'll also find good quality MDMA.  Likely due to synthetic factors, I don't think it's easy for European producers to alter their synth for MDA.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr..._5ba3e721e4b0375f8f9b3bdc?ncid=APPLENEWS00001



> Humans and octopuses both have a gene for a protein that binds serotonin to brain cells. Since MDMA also targets this protein, D?len wanted to see how the drug would affect the octopus, a notoriously shy, solitary animal.


----------



## indigoaura

> Also, flooding the market with mongy meh-MDMA it is an excellent technique for discouraging people from using MDMA, ...especially the new users.
> Do you think there is a group of influential people that does not like the effect that real 3,4-MDMA has on PTSD and depression patients and on society in general, just like there were influential groups that disliked the effects of LSD in the 1960s.... ?



I have wondered the exact same thing. Flooding the market with bad MDMA creates a bad name for MDMA and discourages use. This is one reason I am surprised MAPS does not reply to emails about this. It is counter-productive to their research for bad MDMA to be floating around giving users long term comedowns. It does not contribute to good press. Although, I suppose, from another perspective, if the streets are flooded with bad MDMA, then that means the labs that are authorized to make good MDMA whenever it becomes legal will make more money.

In any case...it does seem like it could be deliberate.


----------



## Hilopsilo

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think the "mongy" MDMA has anything to do with longterm comedowns. Myself and many others I know have had experiences with MehDMA and while it isn't that great, its not necessarily bad either and doesn't give any more or less hangover/comedown than the good stuff. I've had "Molly" that was god knows what, as in 100% not MDxx period, and that stuff makes the MehDMA seem like a godsend. I don't believe its dangerous or anything, its just a shadow of what the true experience can and should be. Unless of course the MehDMA we've got ahold of is not the same that you're talking about (but we'll find out around this coming Wednesday). 

Every story that I read on here of people with LTC, either they did WAY too MDMA (too often, redosing, massive doses, or all of the above), were also combing other drugs, maybe had some pre existing condition, or a combination of all those factors. Nobody has come on here saying they took 100mg of tested MDMA and now they're struggling with a LTC 9 months later. Even back in 90's when it was all good, there has got to be tons of people who did/still do have serious problems from doing way too much MDMA (not to mention an even less amount of information on the stuff), they just didn't have the internet communities we do now to share their stories and ask for help. 

I wish they'd reply too, but as someone who didn't really believe til I felt it with my own body and mind, it really does seem like a bunch of burnt out ravers in here, especially early on (which is why I'd love for this discussion to transition into "What's wrong with some batches of MDMA", it negates that knee jerk response).

Hell, if we want to be taken seriously we should probably drop the term "mongy", which comes from a racist term used to describe someone with mental disability.


----------



## spacejunk

Glubrahnum said:
			
		

> Also, flooding the market with mongy meh-MDMA it is an excellent technique to discourage people from using MDMA, ...especially the new users.



seems like a pretty elaborate scheme, but i don't know about it being an "excellent technique".
building an enormous - and highly profitable - clandestine lab designed to churn out inferior product..to disrupt the heroin market?
 seems unlikely, to say the least.
i suspect that the reason is far more simple, and obvious.  given the mystery surrounding the lacklustre mdma, and what causes them to be disappointing , i sincerely doubt it was manufactured that way intentionally.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

A friend recently tried nexus flipping with some MehDMA. 2C-B taken about 3,5 h after the MehDMA. Expected effects failed to appear, though the 2C-B was of a batch tried with good results previously. Only with repeated insufflated doses (more than 20 mg) did very slight psychedelia appear. Maybe a clue to what may be wrong with the MehDMA?


----------



## Hilopsilo

PsychedelicSummer said:


> A friend recently tried nexus flipping with some MehDMA. 2C-B taken about 3,5 h after the MehDMA. Expected effects failed to appear, though the 2C-B was of a batch tried with good results previously. Only with repeated insufflated doses (more than 20 mg) did very slight psychedelia appear. Maybe a clue to what may be wrong with the MehDMA?



Has it been reagent tested or anything more stringent?

While there is certainly this stuff that tests as perfectly good MDMA and ends up sucking, there is still just as much fake/adulterated "molly" on the market. I feel all reports in here need to at least confirm a reagent test, otherwise its sort of a different topic entirely.


----------



## G_Chem

I also wonder if this could be something bigger that is attempting to sully the good name of MDMA.  If there would be any drug that would be feared it'd be MDMA.

Also I agree with a lot of what you said there Hilo.  I tried stressing that before as well, people love to generalize and in this situation it's far to complicated to do so.  I'd argue there's many different "variations" of MDMA batches out there, some amazing, some just ok, and some really nasty...

@PsychedelicSummer- I'm also curious if you tested? If you did then my next question is are you inferring that the MehDMA in some way blocked the effects of the 2cb? If yes, I find that fascinating and kind of backs up the impurity debate that possibly something is interfering with the binding of these drugs.

-GC


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

The MehDMA turned black with Marquis reagent. The 2C-B sort of prolonged the come down.


----------



## indigoaura

That is really interesting about the 2CB. Doesn't 2CB bind to serotonin receptors as well? If the mehDMA has blocked the receptors, that would explain the lack of effect from the 2CB. 

As for the LTC...plenty of people abused MDMA in the late 90s and early 2000s. I was in a pretty large group of frequent MDMA users. I just never heard of the kinds of complaints that seem to be commonplace now. You got the "Tuesday blues," and then you moved on. These extended, physical comedowns with odd neurological effects were not something that I ever heard about. And believe me, there was plenty of over use and mis use. 

It is possible there is more than one thing going on here. Perhaps the newer synthesis methods produce inferior products and also leave undesirable contaminants that vary from batch to batch.


----------



## indigoaura

I will add this too...

I always heard how the MDMA/2CB combo was supposed to be bomb. And, I tried on numerous occasions to mix the "sleepy" batch of MDMA that I have access to with 2CB. Any time I put that MDMA before the 2CB it was an awful experience. Not pleasant at all. Not fun. The only time I ever enjoyed the combo was when I reversed the order and took the 2CB first, followed by the sleepy MDMA. On that occasion, I actually felt like the sleepy MDMA felt better, and had more life. The drop off was not as intense, and it was an enjoyable experience.

I never thought about the possibility that something uncommon was going on with the combo. But looking at it with the insights of this conversation sheds new light.


----------



## Hilopsilo

I've combined 2C-B with MDMA only twice, both times were absolutely fantastic, I took the 2C-B right as the MDMA come-up had fully finished. The catch here is that for some reason back then 30mg up the nose was my standard/full dose for a big night. This was stupid and I do not condone this because 2C-B I believe is incredibly harmful to the sinuses (the nature of the high is a bit different up the nose, superior I believe, but not worth the pain and likely damage, shame). Needless to say though, 100mg MDMA+30mg 2C-B nasally blasts you the fuck off and certain aspects of the 2C-B probably overwhelm the MDMA. 2C-B can be pretty finicky with the dose; my girlfriend gets very high from 10mg, I find 30mg to be the full experience, but I have friends that won't bother with less than 50mg. Thankfully, it's pretty forgiving stuff and it's unlikely you'd do too much and have a bad difficult experience beyond possible puking in the beginning and a rough come up.

 tbh I can't recollect how the MDMA was the good or the bad for the 2c-b combos, probably somewhere in between as I feel 80% of my experiences with MDMA have been somewhere in between. As in, I was by no means disappointed, certainly satisfied by all means and no reason for me to think that anything was wrong with the MDMA. MDMA has got to be spectrum I think, just over the last couple weeks I've been thinking so much about my experiences with MDMA; majority of the time it just seems that sometimes I roll harder, and sometimes I don't roll that hard, but the nature of the high is the same throughout. Only 2-3 times do I recall being really disappointed by 100mg of tested MDMA, and only twice was the 100mg of MDMA so astonishingly powerful that the experiences stand out from the rest in a big way (the first being chalked up to high dose since I wasn't able to weigh my own cap that time, and second being that recent experience with 100mg of the crazy magical stuff). I hadn't experienced any MDMA that made me (and everyone else) say "theres gotta be something wrong with that shit" until MehDMA preceding the MagicDMA

Something I have been thinking about is the similarities between the two 100% magical experiences; both just _so happened_ to be on some of the highest LSD doses, both were the second time taking LSD on said weekends ("day-two-acid" is always the best for me, I can really push the dose without any negative effects and I don't the massive stomach cramp I get on day 1), and also coincided with most incredible set & setting (even sober, both times probably some of the best shows I had ever seen, surrounded by my closest friends). 

Overall, a major aspect that blurs my judgment of the MDMA is that I haven't taken MDMA without some varying degree of LSD in the last like 5 years. The two times I've taken 100mg MDMA without LSD/2C-B in the last 5 years I can certainly say I was not impressed (the synergy between MDMA & (insert psychedelic) amazed me initially and I haven't looked back). 

The lab should get back to me sometime this week, anxious/excited about it, all I can think about lately lol.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> I also wonder if this could be something bigger that is attempting to sully the good name of MDMA.  If there would be any drug that would be feared it'd be MDMA.


It would be a big operation indeed but not very complex if a very potent contaminant was simply mixed with the precursor ... it would not have to be unprofitable, either.  
How many large precursor suppliers operate nowadays?



G_Chem said:


> If you did then my next question is are you inferring that the MehDMA in some way blocked the effects of the 2cb?
> If yes, I find that fascinating and kind of backs up the impurity debate that possibly something is interfering with the binding of these drugs.


That observation could be very significant if others reliably confirm this inhibition, too.

Some very potent contaminants exist, that would be very hard to detect because of their very small proportion in the mixture...

It think Carfentanil would be a good candidate, but it is just a guess supported only by the ubiquity and potency of this substance. 
I do not even know how micro-doses of Carfentanil feel like subjectively to the patient and even if it resembles any opiod intoxication at these levels.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Take a poke around a DNM and check out just how cheap the stuff is, even the smallest DNM's have 5000+ listings for MDMA


Indeed there are thousands of listings there at very low prices.
But still, 200mg cost more than 100mg.


----------



## G_Chem

@Indigo- Very interesting follow up regarding the nexus flip combo...  We may be on to something here.

This is also a very testable theory as well...  2c-b I think is that perfect in between of psychedelic and empathogenic, and I feel if there is a contaminant causing our issues it would effect the 2c-b as well.

Also maybe we should be looking more into fentanyl analogs like you said Glubra.  Could these analogs be getting missed by these labs? I thought they'd be looking these with a fine tooth comb but indeed they are so potent they could go unnoticed and with the huge increase in these analogs being put into everything it's a very real possibility.

Hmmm, hopefully more people can experiment with this new potential experiment.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> It is counter-productive to their research for bad MDMA to be floating around giving users long term comedowns. It does not contribute to good press.


I think long term comedowns have been more prevalent in recent years compared to the previous years.  
I remember reading somewhere that MDMA-related deaths have been on the rise in recent years, too, and there is a body of statistical evidence to support this.

I am too lazy now to research this and post it here.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Could these analogs be getting missed by these labs?


I think the labs would miss them at micro-dose levels, unless they did purposeful extractions of contaminants from large samples of "MDMA".
My equipment certainly misses micro-doses of Carfentanil from mg samples.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Could these analogs be getting missed by these labs?


I think the labs would miss them at micro-dose levels, unless they did purposeful extractions of contaminants from large samples of "MDMA".
My equipment certainly misses micro-doses of Carfentanil from mg samples.


----------



## indigoaura

I will add this as well, because I have been thinking about it and it seems relevant.

I have had access to 2CB and 2CC over the years. Both of these drugs provide that feeling of emotional magic that I used to experience from MDMA. I recall once trying the 2CC anally, and I commented that it felt more like MDMA than MDMA. 

My only point in sharing this is that my brain is still capable of experiencing empathogenic "magic." 

In regards to the carfentanil, is it possible that MDMA is getting contaminated from shared equipment? Could it be an unintentional contamination at such a massive level?


----------



## psy997

Guys, I really highly doubt carfentanil is to blame here. Why in the world would a microdose of an opiate have such a negative effect on the serotonin system when MDMA has been dosed on opiates by thousands of people to no ill effect?

It's ubiquitous and, I feel fairly confident in it not being the culprit.


----------



## Hilopsilo

psy997 said:


> Guys, I really highly doubt carfentanil is to blame here. Why in the world would a microdose of an opiate have such a negative effect on the serotonin system when MDMA has been dosed on opiates by thousands of people to no ill effect?
> 
> It's ubiquitous and, I feel fairly confident in it not being the culprit.



Lol thank you, had this huge paragraph but you said it in a much better way. I think that "theory" is seriously grasping at straws here.

There hasn't been a single documented case of fentanyl or carfentanyl contaminated MDMA. Lots and lots of speculation, but no actual cases,


----------



## Glubrahnum

psy997 said:


> Guys, I really highly doubt carfentanil is to blame here. Why in the world would a microdose of an opiate have such a negative effect on the serotonin system...?


In your question you assume that the serotonin system is affected, but it doesn't have to be to produce the sedative effects.
Carfentanil does not have to be the culprit but a similarly potent substance can be.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Lol thank you, had this huge paragraph but you said it in a much better way. I think that "theory" is seriously grasping at straws here.
> 
> There hasn't been a single documented case of fentanyl or carfentanyl contaminated MDMA. Lots and lots of speculation, but no actual cases,


Actually, there has been a case of Fentanyl contamination and it is even documented in this thread.


----------



## psy997

It's not about whether it's possible for car/fentanyl to be a contaminant or not. Simply that even medium to high doses of either would not cause the effects seen in so many of the shitty batches of MDMA.

This isn't just "sedative effects" we're looking at here. We're looking at lack of mydriasis, lack of empathy, lack of energy, at times greatly reduced durations of effect, distinctly negative side effects, possible LTC effects/symptoms, and more.

Say fentanyl was to blame, double dosing would more than cover the sedation given by opiates.

Sure, it's possible it's not direct action on the serotonin system we're seeing. And, opiates are not going to cause the shitty effects observed and noted in this thread. No way.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> Actually, there has been a case of Fentanyl contamination and it is even documented in this thread.



Can you tell me on what page?

Every time I've tried finding documented cases I can't find any.


----------



## NewTopic

If MDMA truely has changed then people who have never tried MDMA should also feel this as well ? 

In a months time i'll be hopefully giving two people there first experience, i'll be sure to ask them how they feel and what not throughout the night. 

I definitely feel a change in the MDMA though, I just can't accept it's tolerance and I know I've done some high doses but the magic started to die long before this. Back in 2010 I had really good stuff, eyes like frying pans, intense come ups, eye rolls and what not. This was just from having 100-200mg over the night. 

There was a time last year I got some stuff and had a 100mg, when I usually dose 200mg, I was actually floored, intense come up.. I was honestly struggling and intense love, I think that was off a 6 month break but none the less just crazy. Haven't felt like that since however.


----------



## NewTopic

Also a question, if there was different isomer MDMA causing all of this, instead of the cooks intentionally changing it to one isomer maybe they don't know. 
To create a single isomer chemical you'd also need specific isomer precursors ? 

What I'm trying to say is since all the pmk-glycidate is coming from China, what if the way they manufacture it turns it to one isomer over the other thus causing the MDMA to also have a shift ? 

Btw I have no chemistry knowledge, correct me 100% if wrong. Just a thought.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

NewTopic said:


> If MDMA truely has changed then people who have never tried MDMA should also feel this as well ?



That doesn't really make sense mate. People who haven't had MDMA before won't be able to make a comparison. The good stuff definitely still exists and might actually be making a comeback if the reports on here are anything to go by, but it's certainly no longer the norm as it was 15 to 20 years ago.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Can you tell me on what page?
> Every time I've tried finding documented cases I can't find any.


In post 14242443



NewTopic said:


> If MDMA truely has changed then people who have never tried MDMA should also feel this as well ?


...and they do!
See page 17 of this thread.


----------



## Glubrahnum

NewTopic said:


> Also a question, if there was different isomer MDMA causing all of this, ...


Do you mean chiral enatiomers or different isomers that have the same molecular formula as in the post 14272986 ?



NewTopic said:


> To create a single isomer chemical you'd also need specific isomer precursors ?


Most of the time - yes.
This has been discussed in this thread extensively.


----------



## Glubrahnum

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> That doesn't really make sense mate. People who haven't had MDMA before won't be able to make a comparison.


I think you wrongly assumed differentiation by subjective effects.
Objective effects, such as Mydriasis, Trismus, Hyperkinesia, erectile dysfunction, duration, temperature, b.p., pulse and outward behavior can be gauged objectively in virgin users.


----------



## Hilopsilo

GUYS! I got the email back from the lab, here is what they wrote:

_"Hi ____,

We just received the results of the two MDMA samples back from the lab.

1) Brown
qNMR: 85% MDMA 
MDP2P present in GC-MS analysis

2) Colourless
qNMR: 91% MDMA
No other compounds present

This is all the information that they were able to provide.
__I hope this helps in your search for the answer!"_

For anyone not familiar, the "Brown" is the MehDMA, and "Colourless" is the MagicDMA.

So, disappointing that they couldn't provide more info than this, but I'm thankful that they helped out in whatever ways they could. I could send them an email and try to pry for more info if you all think its worth a short

I think that MDP2P has GOT to be the culprit then, having just 6% more MDMA in the MagicDMA would not make that world of a difference dose for dose. 

This raises a couple questions to me; what makes up the other 9% in the Colourless sample? What makes up the other 15% in the Brown MehDMA (unless its all MDP2P)? 

The other question is, does MDMA made from MDP2P also produce that classic safrole smell? Because the Brown MehDMA reeks of it.


----------



## G_Chem

While I believe fentanyl analogs still could be the culprit I'd argue impurities is still our most likely scenario.  To believe its fentanyl analogs is to believe there is one very large conspiracy afoot which I'm not sure I'm ready to believe yet.  Not that "they" wouldn't pull something like this, but I feel we'd be hearing of more cases than we do currently.  I'm personally keeping it as a maybe, I've been wrong many times before so at this point I'm open to all theories.

And awesome to see they finally got back Hilo!  Very interesting and does make me wonder..  I'm curious how much of the sample was MDP2P..  And I wouldn't say it's the problem yet although its possible.  It could compete with MDMA for receptor sites.

My guess on the other 8.9% for the MagicDMA is either water weight (hydrated polymorph) that is caught in the crystal lattice or impurities/compounds that are less common and they don't have references for or are familiar with enough.  I'm thinking the latter as I can guarantee most labs can't see it all.

As for the smell of MDP2P, yes to many it can smell like safrole.  It's supposed to be like safrole but more "spice-like."  It's a slight difference most probably wouldn't notice.

Indigo has had lackluster product that had MDP2Pol and now you've had lackluster product with product that had MDP2P...  We may be on to something.

Also Glubra didn't you analyze a sample (good mdma) that had a small amount of MDP2P or am I remembering wrong?

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> So, disappointing that they couldn't provide more info than this, but I'm thankful that they helped out in whatever ways they could. I could send them an email and try to pry for more info if you all think its worth a short


It would be useful to get the MDMA type and salt type out of them as well as the NMR spectrograms themselves.
By "salt type" I mean e.g. hydrochloride, phosphate, tartrate, citrate, sulfate, etc...
By "MDMA type" I mean the structural isomers such as 2,3-MDMA vs. 3,4-MDMA.  
Whoever wrote this reply should be ashamed for just writing "MDMA" without disambiguating it further.

NMR does not differentiate between enantiomers, so there is not use asking them about them.

Generally, that is not much info provided and significant ratio of constituents was not defined.



Hilopsilo said:


> I think that MDP2P has GOT to be the culprit then, having just 6% more MDMA in the MagicDMA would not make that world of a difference dose for dose.


Yes, 6% is not much dosewise. Some of it could be just water...
MDP2P is the major precursor for 3,4-MDMA. It has a smell resembling sassafras oil and licorice and it spontaneously decomposes at room temperature.
I don't think MDP2P is psychoactive, but don't quote me on it.  I know nothing about the psychoactivity of the Glycidate.

Any sample of Ecstasy containing a significant amount of MDP2P can be considered as poorly purified, possibly leaving many other impurities therein.



Hilopsilo said:


> This raises a couple questions to me; what makes up the other 9% in the Colourless sample? What makes up the other 15% in the Brown MehDMA (unless its all MDP2P)?


Those are the good questions.
The proper way to attack this problems is to wash out 3,4-MDMA and MDP2P from a large sample and sent the remainder for analysis.



Hilopsilo said:


> The other question is, does MDMA made from MDP2P also produce that classic safrole smell? Because the Brown MehDMA reeks of it.


Pure 3,4-MDMA Hydrochloride does NOT have a smell, but many of its precursors do. 
MDP2P is one of the pungent precursors that smells like sassafras oil and licorice.
So, poorly purified Ecstasy can smell of its precursors and MDP2P is the precursor that does have the smell you mention.


----------



## Glubrahnum

g_chem said:


> also glubra didn't you analyze a sample (good mdma) that had a small amount of mdp2p or am i remembering wrong?


A.F.A.I.r.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> It would be useful to get the MDMA type and salt type out of them as well as the NMR spectrograms themselves.
> By "salt type" I mean e.g. hydrochloride, phosphate, tartrate, citrate, sulfate, etc...
> By "MDMA type" I mean the structural isomers such as 2,3-MDMA vs. 3,4-MDMA.
> Whoever wrote this reply should be ashamed for just writing "MDMA" without disambiguating it further.
> 
> NMR does not differentiate between enantiomers, so there is not use asking them about them.
> 
> Generally, that is not much info provided and significant ratio of constituents was not defined.
> 
> 
> Yes, 6% is not much dosewise. Some of it could be just water...
> MDP2P is the major precursor for 3,4-MDMA. It has a smell resembling sassafras oil and licorice and it spontaneously decomposes at room temperature.
> I don't think MDP2P is psychoactive, but don't quote me on it.  I know nothing about the psychoactivity of the Glycidate.
> 
> Any sample of Ecstasy containing a significant amount of MDP2P can be considered as poorly purified, possibly leaving many other impurities therein.
> 
> 
> Those are the good questions.
> The proper way to attack this problems is to wash out 3,4-MDMA and MDP2P from a large sample and sent the remainder for analysis.
> 
> 
> Pure 3,4-MDMA Hydrochloride does NOT have a smell, but many of its precursors do.
> MDP2P is one of the pungent precursors that smells like sassafras oil and licorice.
> So, poorly purified Ecstasy can smell of its precursors and MDP2P is the precursor that does have the smell you mention.



I'll send them a reply tomorrow morning to see if I can squeeze anymore information out of them, because now this feels a bit inconclusive, I had my hopes up that we were gonna squash this whole thing right then n' there.

On the bright side, I think this rules out ANY hypotheses that its "just weak", because thats what the chemists all thought was the case initially as well as the person I spoke with on the phone about the FTIR testing at the festival.

As for my own purposes, I'll probably continue bringing them MDMA samples I come across, get the free NMR and whatever information they're willing to share to find patterns. I recently acquired a sample that is purple/grey with no smell, might bring that in soon. I'll share anything I find out in here.



G_Chem said:


> As for the smell of MDP2P, yes to many it can smell like safrole. It's supposed to be like safrole but more "spice-like." It's a slight difference most probably wouldn't notice.
> 
> Indigo has had lackluster product that had MDP2Pol and now you've had lackluster product with product that had MDP2P... We may be on to something.
> 
> Also Glubra didn't you analyze a sample (good mdma) that had a small amount of MDP2P or am I remembering wrong?
> 
> -GC



To my understanding it either goes, safrole -> MDP2P -> MDMA, or MDP2Pol -> MDP2P -> MDMA, right? So even though mine had MDP2P, theres no way to know whether the MDP2P came from safrole or MDP2P (right again?). You'd think there would also be MDP2P leftover if MDP2Pol is leftover in the first place. Maybe theres something wrong with product created from MDP2Pol. 

I think thats a good thing to define though; just because the MDMA has that classic safrole smell, it does NOT mean it is safrole derived since MDP2P created from MDP2Pol also has more or less the same scent. There are a lot of listings claiming their product is safrole derived using the scent as proof.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Been digging around the internet looking for other information on all of this, found some interesting stuff on dnstars, here are some things that have been said somewhat recently:

https://dnstars.vip/t/question-regarding-mdma-high/11317/12

https://dnstars.vip/t/is-cola-mandy...cool-name-to-make-up-for-unpure-stuff/2719/21


----------



## NewTopic

Hilopsilo said:


> Been digging around the internet looking for other information on all of this, found some interesting stuff on dnstars, here are some things that have been said somewhat recently:
> 
> https://dnstars.vip/t/question-regarding-mdma-high/11317/12
> 
> https://dnstars.vip/t/is-cola-mandy...cool-name-to-make-up-for-unpure-stuff/2719/21



Interesting read! 

Especially this part:
"A chemist on bluelight tested mdma and found out that its not even pmk glycidate that?s being used its some other stuff which is ridiculously cheap to acquire thus all the really cheap md going about."

Weirdly enough, a few months ago someone had a post on Reddit saying that a big vendor on the darkweb was going to stop selling MDMA due to the fact that apparently someone had found a new method to make MDMA that was insanely cheap and it wasn't worth even making/selling anymore for them. Not sure how true this is.


----------



## Hilopsilo

PMK glycidate is certainly why you can get the stuff for unbelievably cheap, like so cheap you'd think its a scam (don't think I'm allowed to give price here). 

Is PMK gly why some of it sucks? Science and chemistry say no, but its possible. I wish the NM R had provided more info about precursors leftover, maybe would have been able to tell which batch was made from what. And if both were from PMK gly, then we could set that theory to rest permanently, if the good stuff was safrole and the bad was pmk gly, maybe we'd be onto something.

All I can think of right now is that, with the MehDMA, the purity was lower (strike 1), there was leftover precursor, (strike 2), whats strike 3? They gave me very little info, but what little they gave me only pointed to the MehDMA being worse, so it makes me wonder what else is inferior about it that we don't know.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Is PMK Gly why some of it sucks? Science and chemistry say no, but its possible.


It is improbable but possible.
The biggest difference between MDP2P Glycidate and the naked MDP2P is that the former has enantiomers and the latter does not.  This distinction matters only if someone found a simple (and cheap) way to convert MDP2P Glycidate *directly* into 3,4-MDMA.
By "directly" I mean: without going through the MDP2P step.  I have never read about such direct conversion but the lack of evidence of its existence is not an evidence of its non-existence.

I am lacking knowledge about the psychoactivity of MDP2P Glycidate and MDP2PPol, but if it is a contaminant it has to be a potent one.  There are not that many substances that are active in microgram doses. LSD and Fentanyl analogs are the few candidates that come to mind...but LSD does not produce the observed effects, so I think it can be excluded.

If there is a potent contaminant present then it must affect the Norepinephrine pharmacology which is responsible for Mydriasis and it must interfere with 2-CB activity if that fact can be confirmed.

Miosis (the constriction of pupils) - the opposite of Mydriasis is caused by handful of drugs.
Read about them *here*.


----------



## NewTopic

What about N-tert-butoxycarbonyl-MDMA or MDP-2-P-ol ? 
I think the best thing to do is to look into reports completed by authority's in relation to seizure of materials recently, this should indicate what the labs are using or looking to use today. 

These ones caught my eye as interesting, could there possibly be a one step method from these substances, like a reduction for the first ? 
Could this be possibly why that we are seeing better quality stuff in patches ? Maybe they are starting to head away from the PMK-Cly due to it be more highly monitored and such. 

Like I said before, I'm not chemist or anything so I have no idea.


----------



## indigoaura

Here is the link to my meh-DMA:

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2644

This is the product I have had access to since 2005 or so. All experiences consistently not quite right. Lower empathy, sleepy, cold, no rush on come-up, sick comedown, minimal eye dilation etc. Lack of desired effects confirmed by other people, including an individual who had been on a 5 year break.


----------



## Hilopsilo

I didn't realize that result was 5:1 ratio MDMA to precursor, thats a hefty amount of precursor. My crappy stuff had significant precursor too, we can't determine exactly why, but I think its safe to say; significant amounts of leftover precursor = poorly made = other things likely wrong with it = inferior experience. I guess thats a first step in eliminating/avoiding bad stuff, get a batch tested and if they pick up precursor leftovers ditch it. 

How is MDP2P different from MDP2Pol? Do either tell us anything about if it was made from PMK gly or safrole? Everyone on DNStars is convinced that shit made from PMK gly just sucks and the safrole is the good stuff, plain and simple. Not much science behind that nor can anyone really prove which is made from which AFAIK.


----------



## Goodwalt

Is it Just me or that lab analysis was ver poor? I would ask for more details!


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I fuckin love the term 'MehDMA'. Inspired...


----------



## Tranced

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I fuckin love the term 'MehDMA'. Inspired...



Hahahahaha 

Has anybody tried contacting somebody who could lead a proper investigation into this? I was thinking of trying to contact somebody like David Nutt, or somebody from MAPS.


----------



## indigoaura

I have emailed MAPS - no reply. I have also emailed Energy Control. They replied, but then did not follow up. 

My meh-DMA was not made from safrole or PMK. I was told it was made by another synthesis route. Not clear on what that is.


----------



## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> ...I guess thats a first step in eliminating/avoiding bad stuff, get a batch tested and if they pick up precursor leftovers ditch it...



Ideally we would be able to determine an accessible and relatively easy method of purification so as to not just ditch MehDMA...


----------



## Hilopsilo

Tranced said:


> Hahahahaha
> 
> Has anybody tried contacting somebody who could lead a proper investigation into this? I was thinking of trying to contact somebody like David Nutt, or somebody from MAPS.



MAPS ignored me too. I understand their busy, and at first glance we seem like a bunch of babbling idiots LOL



Goodwalt said:


> Is it Just me or that lab analysis was ver poor? I would ask for more details!



If you're talking about the "NMR" I had done, yes, they gave me hardly any info and won't return my emails. It was free, so oh well. Looking into paid services now.


----------



## Tranced

Professor Nutt seems like a pretty stand up guy, I'm trying to get his email.


----------



## Hilopsilo

psy997 said:


> Ideally we would be able to determine an accessible and relatively easy method of purification so as to not just ditch MehDMA...



Someone on reddit suggested an acetone wash to get rid of MDP2P and the like.


----------



## JK25

It is not the same standard quality round confex pills from Holland we used to get from 1999-2007 ish...  Now it is double dips and disco biscuits and no two look the same.  In my days all MDMA pills were exactly the same shape and size and only the stamp was different.  White supermans were my favourite, took about 150-200 throughout end of school term in 2006 and march 2007.


----------



## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> Someone on reddit suggested an acetone wash to get rid of MDP2P and the like.



Pages and pages back a double solvent wash method was described by I can't remember who, he contributed quite a bit for a few pages, that sounded promising. Though it involves anhydrous isopropyl alcohol, if I'm not mistaken, which while claimed to be easily available re: pc/computer uses, I couldn't find easily with some preliminary searching.

It was acetone and the anhydrous (if anhydrous IPA is what it was...)


----------



## G_Chem

Awesome last few pages..  Definitely see if some of those more influential researchers have the time or ability to help us. 

Yes if it's simply these residual oils causing problems then I believe a dried acetone wash alone could probably help a fair amount.  The isopropyl recrystallization would be the icing on the cake but I'm sure there would be some notable differences with just the acetone wash.  Just remember to dry it before use.

Do you have much of that MehDMA left Hilo where you could perform an experiment?

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Awesome last few pages..  Definitely see if some of those more influential researchers have the time or ability to help us. 

Yes if it's simply these residual oils causing problems then I believe a dried acetone wash alone could probably help a fair amount.  The isopropyl recrystallization would be the icing on the cake but I'm sure there would be some notable differences with just the acetone wash.  Just remember to dry it before use.

Do you have much of that MehDMA left Hilo where you could perform an experiment?

Oh also MDP2Pol is a precursor that is sometimes used in place of MDP2P.  Certain reactions to get the intermediate before MDMA involve MDP2Pol instead.  Mdp2pol is often, but not always, indicative of piperanol as the starting precursor over safrole.  So often we have safrole -> MDp2p -> MDMA and piperanol -> MDP2Pol -> MDMA.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> Awesome last few pages..  Definitely see if some of those more influential researchers have the time or ability to help us.
> 
> Yes if it's simply these residual oils causing problems then I believe a dried acetone wash alone could probably help a fair amount.  The isopropyl recrystallization would be the icing on the cake but I'm sure there would be some notable differences with just the acetone wash.  Just remember to dry it before use.
> 
> Do you have much of that MehDMA left Hilo where you could perform an experiment?
> 
> Oh also MDP2Pol is a precursor that is sometimes used in place of MDP2P.  Certain reactions to get the intermediate before MDMA involve MDP2Pol instead.  Mdp2pol is often, but not always, indicative of piperanol as the starting precursor over safrole.  So often we have safrole -> MDp2p -> MDMA and piperanol -> MDP2Pol -> MDMA.
> 
> -GC



I need to get my terminology straight, piperanol = PMK glycidate? I was under the impression the beginning is either safrole or PMK glycidate

Yeah I'd love to do something useful with it lol!


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> I need to get my terminology straight, piperanol = PMK glycidate? I was under the impression the beginning is either safrole or PMK glycidate


No, they are different compounds. Only _trans-safrole_ and _cis-safrole_ are different isomers of the same compound.






P.S.
There is no such compound as "piperanol".

Also, these compounds can have the MethyleneDioxy Bridge in the 2,3 position on the aromatic ring, so the number of possible precursor compounds doubles and the MDMA, that would be synthesized out of them, would be the 2,3-MDMA.


----------



## Glubrahnum

psy997 said:


> Ideally we would be able to determine an accessible and relatively easy method of purification so as to not just ditch MehDMA...



You can purify contaminated MDMA by exploiting different solubilities in two ways:
*1*) Dissolve the contaminated sample in a solvent, in which MDMA is insoluble, and keep the solids.
*2*) Dissolve the contaminated sample in a solvent, in which MDMA is soluble, and discard the solids. Evaporate the solvent containing the dissolved MDMA and crystallize it on a pane of glass.
*3*) Both of the above (for best results)


----------



## NewTopic

I just thought i'd bring this to your attention guys as it might be of interest to yourselves. 

Last year I received some 'MDMA' which was orange, bright orange and it was kinda wet as well.
When I got this I thought no way is this MDMA, so I tested it all with my test kit and all come up for MDMA. 
So I had shared this with friends as well as myself and we all had similar experiences. 
Photo of 'MDMA': https://imgur.com/a/iHJjy
Photo of Home Test: https://imgur.com/a/buiKo

This stuff was 3x stronger then what I normally got, it was totally bizarre and I was convinced it wasn't MDMA. 
I'm used to having 200-250 straight up and can handle it well for a relatively skinny person, but 70mg of this .. had me rolling for 6 hours or so, hard as well. 

Someone offered me to send it to a lab for testing for free which I did comply. 
The test results are here: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=5777

Now to my complete amazement they also said it was MDMA. 

My guess it could have just been a lot of precursor left over or something which probably wasn't good for the health i'll be honest but it was good! 
So this might throw things off with the whole, precursor left over is a bad thing but maybe it's the type of precursor left that's the kicker. My presumption was that this was made from Safrole or something similar, I doubt PMK etc was used in this particular synth just by the look of it but that leads into a lot of things that the Safrole is stronger and possibly because of left over materials in the synth.


----------



## Glubrahnum

NewTopic said:


> These ones caught my eye as interesting, could there possibly be a one step method from these substances, like a reduction for the N-tert-butoxycarbonyl-MDMA


Yes, removal of the t-BOC protective group can be done by a strong acid in one step and allegedly even by boiling in water at 100C. This removal yields MDMA ready for salting.
Racemicity of the MDMA could be an issue if t-BOC MDMA forms chiral enantiomers and is delivered in non-racemic form.



NewTopic said:


> Now to my complete amazement they also said it was MDMA.


These labs do not routinely detect isomers and trace contaminants...even if they are very potent (i.e. active in the microgram range).



NewTopic said:


> Last year I received some 'MDMA' which was orange, bright orange and it was kinda wet as well...
> So this might throw things off with the whole, precursor left over is a bad thing but maybe it's the type of precursor left that's the kicker.


A sample that looks like that is just an indication that it wasn't purified well.  
Besides the precursor chemicals, it can have any other intermediaries and reagents left in it.  Your guess is as good as mine what they might be and what they do to the brain.



NewTopic said:


> but that leads into a lot of things that the Safrole is stronger and possibly because of left over materials in the synth.


Yes, compounds remaining after the synth (not necessarily Safrole nor PMK) can be more potent than pure MDMA or can interact with MDMA, but that does not make them MDMA.



NewTopic said:


> My presumption was that this was made from Safrole or something similar, I doubt PMK etc was used in this particular synth just by the look of it


That's too much of a presumption because most synths from Safrole go through the intermediate PMK step before getting to the MDMA stage.
In other words, most MDMA made from Safrole is most directly made from PMK.
Base PMK is a yellow, orange or brown oil, depending on purity, and has the sassy / anise smell. It is *unstable* at room temperature.




*MDP2P oil (a.k.a. PMK)*

P.S.
_MDP2Pol is unstable at room temperature, too, and can decay to MDP1P upon oxidation.  
Whether the MDP2P Glycidate spontaneously decays to MDP1P Glycidate in storage is a good question..._
What is the result of an "MDMA synth" made with MDP1P as a precursor, is another can of worms...


----------



## NewTopic

Glubrahnum said:


> P.S.
> _MDP2Pol is unstable at room temperature, too, and can decay to MDP1P upon oxidation.
> Whether the MDP2P Glycidate spontaneously decays to MDP1P Glycidate in storage is a good question..._
> What is the result of an "MDMA synth" made with MDP1P as a precursor, is another can of worms...



This got me thinking, started to do a bit of research and found this:
"*3,4-Methylenedioxypropiophenone, also known as 3,4-(Methylenedioxy)phenyl-1-propanone (MDP1P), is a phenylpropanoidfound in some plants of the genus Piper and is an isomer of 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (MDP2P)." 

*So, if this is an isomer of MDP2P does that mean doing a synth to MDMA would cause an in balance of the isomer ratios ? 
Even if some of the compound converted to MDP1P, like a 70/30 ratio or something.


----------



## G_Chem

@NewTopic- I wonder if that MDMA was some Leuckart synthed stuff.. It matches the profile fairly well.  Was there more energy to that batch? How else was the experience different from the norm?

@Glubra- Not sure why I can't spell piperonal right, gets me every time...  But you bring up a good question, what would MDP1P produce?..  I used to know the answer to this, like 9-10yrs ago.  I know where to look though but will take time, gotta dredge through the Hive to find it.

@Hilo- Piperonal (3,4-methylenedioxbenzaldeahyde) is not PMK glycidate (aka MDP2P glycidate.)  Its a substance that can be made synthetically and is used in the fragrance industry similar to safrole.

-GC


----------



## NewTopic

G_Chem said:


> @NewTopic- I wonder if that MDMA was some Leuckart synthed stuff.. It matches the profile fairly well.  Was there more energy to that batch? How else was the experience different from the norm?



You know what your 100% right. 
It was a bit different then normal, I felt a lot more of the speedy effects of MDMA, lot's of jaw clenching/chattering and dilated pupils and very body intense although I had more energy then I normally would I would say. Less Euphoria,  also vomited heaps. All of these things are very unusual for me as MDMA I generally don't get much jaw clench anymore let alone chattering plus the energy. This with the small dose, that led me to think it was not MDMA. 

Why would that particular synth cause this ?


----------



## Hilopsilo

NewTopic said:


> You know what your 100% right.
> It was a bit different then normal, I felt a lot more of the speedy effects of MDMA, lot's of jaw clenching/chattering and dilated pupils and very body intense although I had more energy then I normally would I would say. Less Euphoria,  also vomited heaps. All of these things are very unusual for me as MDMA I generally don't get much jaw clench anymore let alone chattering plus the energy. This with the small dose, that led me to think it was not MDMA.
> 
> Why would that particular synth cause this ?



Weird, cause your description lines up with my experience with the MehDMA besides having more energy and puking; less euphoria, more jaw clench, speedy-chatty feeling, very body intense but not in the orgasmic MDMA way. 

Kinda grasping at straws attempting to connect entire synthesis routes with a single anecdotal experience. I know anecdotes is really all we got, but I just think thats a bit of a stretch. You'd need way more people to try it in different settings and times I think to really nail down specific attributes of it.

Also that MDMA looks it would smell like Fanta lol


----------



## NewTopic

Hilopsilo said:


> Weird, cause your description lines up with my experience with the MehDMA besides having more energy and puking; less euphoria, more jaw clench, speedy-chatty feeling, very body intense but not in the orgasmic MDMA way.
> 
> Kinda grasping at straws attempting to connect entire synthesis routes with a single anecdotal experience. I know anecdotes is really all we got, but I just think thats a bit of a stretch. You'd need way more people to try it in different settings and times I think to really nail down specific attributes of it.
> 
> Also that MDMA looks it would smell like Fanta lol



It was definitely missing the 'magical' happiness side, it just took me by surprise with the dosage. 
I only had 70-80mg, but it was super strong and lasted longer then normal, struggled to sleep being honest. 
A lot of people that I gave it too actually really liked it because it hit you hard, where as the other stuff normally you'd have to take a lot and it was just a casual roll. If I had taken 150-200mg, I don't know what would have happened honestly. I normally take 200-250mg straight up. 

Completely understand, there isn't any facts to anything it's just he said she said at the end of the day but none the less it definitely is giving us lot's of ideas to explore which make sense in some ways. The synthesis route is an interesting one, I still think it's something to do with Isomers/Precursors but that's just an opinion. But that particular orange MDMA felt like one isomer over the other if you will. 

I wish it smelled like Fanta!


----------



## Glubrahnum

NewTopic said:


> So, if MDP1P is an isomer of MDP2P does that mean doing a synth to MDMA would cause an in balance of the isomer ratios ?
> Even if some of the compound converted to MDP1P, like a 70/30 ratio or something.


It would make a difference because MDP2P aminates to MDMA and PDP1P does not.
However note that I have written that MDP2P is unstable at room temperature.  I did not write that it spontaneously converts to MDP1P, like MDP2Pol does.
Maybe it does, I just don't have that piece of information.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> But you bring up a good question, what would MDP1P produce?..  I used to know the answer to this, like 9-10yrs ago.  I know where to look though but will take time, gotta dredge through the Hive to find it.








Since MDP1P has oxygen at the Beta carbon (MDP2P has it at the Alpha carbon), then if an amino group (NH) was added to it *in the same position* (red dot) as with the conventional MDMA synth when using the MDP2P as a precursor, then the result would be Methylone if that Beta oxygen was not reduced during the amination/methylation.  

However, if that Beta oxygen was reduced then the result would be N,β-Me-MDPEA and/or β-Me-MDMA (not to be confused with βk-MDMA).






We can be pretty sure that if a sample contains MDP2Pol then some of it must have decayed to MDP1P upon oxidation and later that got aminated to Methylone or β-Me-MDMA or N,β-Me-MDPEA.  In other words the presence of MDP2Pol mandates some presence of Methylone or β-Me-MDMA or N,β-Me-MDPEA.  
How much, depends on how long the synth was sitting at the MDP2Pol stage and at what temperature (the lower the better).

The same *might* be true of MDP2P *if* it spontaneously decays to MDP1P.  The same goes for the Glycidate...


----------



## NewTopic

So can I just confirm what your saying. 

That MDP2Pol does decay to MDP1P upon oxidation, depending on a few factors and could be possible for MDP2P and Clycidate versions ? 

If you did a synth and some of precursor ended up into MDP1P, let's say 20% converted over. 
Would this mean when doing the synth to MDMA, it would cause MDMA and Methylone to both form in the one crystal ?


----------



## Glubrahnum

NewTopic said:


> That MDP2Pol does decay to MDP1P upon oxidation, depending on a few factors and could be possible for MDP2P and Clycidate versions ?


Yes



NewTopic said:


> If you did a synth and some of precursor ended up into MDP1P, let's say 20% converted over.
> Would this mean when doing the synth to MDMA, it would cause MDMA and Methylone to both form in the one crystal ?


Yes.
Also, besides Methylone, the β-Me-MDMA and N,β-Me-MDPEA can be co-formed in the end product, depending on the reaction conditions.






P.S.
N,β-Me-MDPEA would be undetectable by underivatized GC/MS analysis using cheap columns, because it is an isobary of MDMA (has the same molar mass).  There is a paper, that was discussed in this thread, which shows simple GC/MS has difficulties distinguishing MDMA isobaries.


----------



## Hilopsilo

But wouldn't any significant amount of methylone in a sample of MDMA be easily tested for?

But for the undetectable stuff you've listed here as well as the 23 compounds post you made, hypothetically speaking, the sample of MehDMA I sent in that was 85% MDMA, the other 15% could potentially be any of these compounds? Or would those compounds be "hiding" as part of the 85% MDMA?

Basically, I'm wondering if GC/MS would mistake these compounds for MDMA, or simply be unable to pick them up (hence 15% unaccounted for in my sample)


----------



## Glubrahnum

Methylone and β-Me-MDMA should be detected in significant amounts even by a simple MS because they are heaver than MDMA.
N,β-Me-MDPEA would be mistaken for the MDMA because it has the same molar mass and is a positional isomer.


----------



## G_Chem

So just found an article that may further prove the R-isomer could be the culprit.  As much as I still am unsure of all of that..  I like to play devils advocate 

To go over quick.  The R-isomer could fit as it has nearly no dopamine release, little to no mydriasis and would require a larger dosage.

This study...  "R(?)-3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine has prosocial and therapeutic-like effects without signs of neurotoxicity in mice."

Shows that indeed R-MDMA is the "sedating and mongy" one of the two isomers.  I wasn't sure on this until this study.

They tested a variety of doses of both isomers.  What they found was the R isomer had actually LESS locomotor activity than Saline.  This would imply it is sedating.  RS-MDMA was almost double saline and S-MDMA almost triple.  

Also it appears the bulk of the duration for S-MDMA was "general investigation" meaning they were stimulated and walking around curious.  R-MDMA, the bulk duration was used "adjacent lying" aka cuddle puddle.

This could all be explained by isomers if we could get proof but beyond your few tests Glubra we don't have much.  The few tests did show variation but also no discernible difference based on the anecdotes of said users.  This shits confusing :/

Whatever the case just thought I'd share that.  I was always under the impression R-MDMA was still stimulating just weaker and the reason for the "afterglow."  I now see it's actually sedating compared to a sober neutral state.

Also this study shows that there is lasting changes to "fear conditioning" that R-MDMA possesses but S-MDMA does not.  This is huge implications for PTSD and since R-MDMA is non-neurotoxic it's possible there would be a future medication with either heavy on the R isomer or just R-MDMA by itself.

It's this last statement that gets me wondering..  The MehDMA doesn't seem to possess this ability, and makes me question the isomer theory.  In fact looking at the graphs it appears R-MDMA actually causes a long lasting positive effect on dopamine.  This is that afterglow people speak of and seems to be solely from the R.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Is there any practical way for testing out contamination or isomer theories using purification techniques at home?


----------



## G_Chem

Found another study from 2003 which analyzed 400 something samples of ecstasy for enatiometric ratios.  These samples were taken from Taiwan in 2001.  They found them to be generally racemic.  A few samples contained DMMDA but not many.

This is interesting because it's the first study I've seen analyzing enatiometric excess even if it's old.  It's also interesting because it further solidifies my theory that the Leuckart reaction was almost completely fizzled out by this point.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Some more R vs S: Characterization of 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) Enantiomers In Vitro and in the MPTP-Lesioned Primate: R-MDMA Reduces Severity of Dyskinesia, Whereas S-MDMA Extends Duration of ON-Time

Interesting but I do feel sorry for the monkeys


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> This could all be explained by isomers if we could get proof but beyond your few tests Glubra we don't have much.  The few tests did show variation but also no discernible difference based on the anecdotes of said users.  This shits confusing :/


The enantiomer deviations were small enough in the samples, I've tested, to not make much difference in subjective effect of users.

So we seem to have three major working theories:
*1*) Non-racemicity
*2*) Positional isomers
*3*) Potent contaminants

No.1 is the easiest one to test, either by buying a polarimeter on eBay or improvising one out of polarizing glass/film like in these videos I have posted recently in Post# 14398931.

The argument against non-racemicity was always that the stereoselective synths were not economical nor easy. (salting by chiral tartaric acid being the exception to "not easy").
However, the advent of non-racemic t-BOC MDMA might render that argument, moot.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> Is there any practical way for testing out contamination or isomer theories using purification techniques at home?


Not easily, because the positional isomers are likely to have the same solubility as MDMA.  The same goes for the enantiomers.

The *No.3* theory of potent contaminants has a chance of being confirmed at home half-way, by doing the 1&2 washings with anhydrous solvents to REMOVE the MDMA (the opposite of what one would normally do) and sending the remaining residue for GC/MS or NMR or Raman analysis to a professional lab.


----------



## fatstep

As with everything it's all in who you know and who they know. I'd wager any given person is at all times just one person removed from a major source of most drugs. It's your part to do your due diligence and Network to see who and what you can get to squirm out of the bushes.

Networking is the secret to most things in life that are pleasurable.


----------



## Hilopsilo

The non-racemicity one seems so ambiguous to me. When I first started looking into all this, and read up on the characteristics of R and S isomer MDMA, my own personal conclusion, based off the subjective effects I felt  from the MehDMA versus the MagicDMA, was that the crappy stuff was s-MDMA and the good stuff was racemic or leaning towards r MDMA. Obviously a vast oversimplification, but the descriptions I read were that s-MDMA is less lovey, more speedy, less psychedelic, and more potent by weight (which explain the incredibly difficult come up I had that never paid off) which is totally what I felt crappy stuff (and when I brought it to the testing tent the next day, my prediction was that it was cut with amphetamine or similar).

Obviously MDMA isn't all that psychedelic, but on that first night in combination with LSD, the MehDMA didn't really "bring out" the visuals the way the MagicDMA did on the last night. The MagicDMA straight doubled the visual effects of the LSD.

But then I came here, and not only had it seemed like that theory was thrown out early in the thread, but everyone thought the bad stuff was likely r-MDMA! Opposite of what I would have guessed. 

My money is on contaminants or positional isomers. Both analyzed samples of crappy stuff had left over precursor, and thats really all the data we got.


----------



## NewTopic

I think this all happened when Safrole stopped being the precursor due to bans. 
For one reason or another it changed it, whether that be less or more contaminants or something to do with the PMK. 

The chemists wouldn't change it to one isomer over the other, wouldn't be worth the time nor money however if it was changed in the precursor for whatever reason before they received it they would likely never know that it wasn't racemic and they would cook up a batch as normal but it would be one isomer over the other ? Is that accurate or wouldn't happen for whatever reason. 

Maybe the safrole synth created another chemical impurity or something when converting it to PMK etc.


----------



## Glubrahnum

NewTopic said:


> The chemists wouldn't change it to one isomer over the other, wouldn't be worth the time nor money however if it was changed in the precursor for whatever reason before they received it they would likely never know that it wasn't racemic and they would cook up a batch as normal but it would be one isomer over the other ?


Yes, the chemists would inadvertently synthesize non-racemic MDMA if they received a non racemic precursor such as t-BOC MDMA.

The same would be true if they received non-racemic PMK Glycidate and used a one-step method to synthesize MDMA out of it, without going through the naked PMK step. Such one-step method has not been documented but it was alleged to exist on multiple occasions.

The reason for this is that naked PMK is always racemic (it cannot be chiral), so going through it renders the end product racemic, too.
The classical synth with using Safrole as the primary precursor goes through the naked PMK step, so the end product is racemic.



NewTopic said:


> Maybe the Safrole synth created another chemical impurity or something when converting it to PMK etc.


That is possible when Safrole is converted to MDP2Pol before being converted to MDP2P (PMK) - a common technique.
MDP2Pol can decay to MDP1P upon oxidation in elevated temperatures and MDP1P reductively aminates to e.g. N,β-Me-MDPEA which is a positional isomer of MDMA and very hard to differentiate from the real McCoy.

Some chemists claim that MDP2P degrades to MDP1P when stored for a long time, resulting in the same skewed end product.
The same is claimed for the Glycidates, although it was never confirmed.

The takeaway from this is that with the old Safrole synths nobody was keeping the MDP2Pol or MDMP2P around for a long time before it was converted to MDMA.
The MDP2P (PMK) was used *as soon as* it was derived from Safrole.


----------



## Andon

Back in the 90s the electronic music scene (and related to it, the MDMA scene) was a lot more underground and intimate, and while of course chemists were making money of MDMA, I would think that it was a lot more about "sharing the love" than whatever the dutch or others are mass producing now. So the question I think is in many ways related to greedy sellers stuffing the markets with cheapest stuff they can mass produce.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Andon said:


> So the question I think is in many ways related to greedy sellers stuffing the markets with cheapest stuff they can mass produce.


Yes, and this will continue until we identify the culprit and make a cheap field-test to reliably detect it.
Only voting with your wallet will change sellers like that...


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

This whole debacle only serves to illustrate how prohibition causes health problems. Fuckin legalise it you cunts!!


Properly controlled and regulated, the government could churn out MagicDMA on an industrial scale with minimal side effects, no LTC and pure bliss. They know how to do it that's for sure...


----------



## Biscuit

There is no doubt the introduction of chiral pmk glycidate, which is then supposedly made into PMK (and what exactly, what is the other molecule left alongside the PMK after hydrolysis?!). And does anyone think these manufacturers are purifying the PMK before making MDMA; I doubt it, especially when there is talk of one pot reactions to MDMA from glycidate.

Now earlier in the thread I posted a link to the Australian Crime and Intelligence Commission illicit drug report. Now the way these things go, they tend to lag behind whats actually happening currently, especially as this is for Australia which means further lag.

Anyway, this report discusses the type of REDUCTIVE AMINATION being employed to manufacture MDMA, something which might be just as important as the precursor used (especially if they are trying something novel). 

Now in the previous years report the table was all about the massive shift from using borohydrides for this last step to using platinum metal catalysts instead, the former being the predominate method pre the safrole drought and the latter after things had to be done differently.

So now into the report for this year which is here:
  https://www.acic.gov.au/sites/g/files/net3726/f/iddr_2016-17_050718.pdf 

Now check out PAGE 30...for the most recent year they have data to report, which is only as at 2016, almost half of the seizures across the whole
Country used an UNCLASSIFIED reductive amination step; as in the steps being used from batch to batch are either variable (unlikely) or so novel and new, the data collection process at the various labs across the country did not make provision for these methods.

Does this not scream some new and previously unused reductive amination process/reagent becoming the method of choice, as it has the ability to somehow reduce your crappy chiral glycidate into actual MDMA; in who knows what isomeric ratio and who knows what else might be reduced to some type of primary amine from the other smaller side of the hydrolysis glycidate molecule.

2016 is when things started to get really shit. This massive shift in one year from recognised reductive amination processes being used across the board (across all of the seizures in this country) to then suddenly this critical process becoming something new that no forensic chemist has previously needed to classify or provide a category for, is irrefutable proof that things have changed and this change must surely be the cause of the mess we are all now slowly navigating our way through. 

I also think that all mdma testing needs to report the mdma salt type as a matter of course and confirm whether the MG content in any particular pill is being reproted as the total salt or just the mdma on its own (which plenty of government laboratories do, believe me).


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I personally think that all the testing in the world will not return a conclusive answer to this problem. Chemistry is not an exact science. Clandestine chemists are mainly charlatans only interesting in making as much product as possible, as quickly as possible for as much profit as possible. Without the conditions of a pharmaceutical laboratory and carefully controlled procedures, the confounding variables are neigh on infinite. Even given ideal conditions, it still takes a craftsman to turn out a quality product. It's a bit like getting some cowboy builder to plaster your wall. Yeh, maybe he can mix a load of shit in a bucket and chuck it at your wall, but it'll still look like fuckin shit...


----------



## Ashley

Biscuit said:


> Does this not scream some new and previously unused reductive amination process/reagent becoming the method of choice, as it has the ability to somehow reduce your crappy chiral glycidate into actual MDMA; in who knows what isomeric ratio and who knows what else might be reduced to some type of primary amine from the other smaller side of the hydrolysis glycidate molecule.
> 
> 2016 is when things started to get really shit. This massive shift in one year from recognised reductive amination processes being used across the board (across all of the seizures in this country) to then suddenly this critical process becoming something new that no forensic chemist has previously needed to classify or provide a category for, is irrefutable proof that things have changed and this change must surely be the cause of the mess we are all now slowly navigating our way through.
> 
> I also think that all mdma testing needs to report the mdma salt type as a matter of course and confirm whether the MG content in any particular pill is being reproted as the total salt or just the mdma on its own (which plenty of government laboratories do, believe me).



Right on Biscuit! I was hoping you were still following the issue. 

This paper is really relevant to the topic at hand, not sure if it's been mentioned previously:

*"Methyl 3-[3',4'-(methylenedioxy)phenyl]-2-methyl glycidate: An Ecstasy Precursor Seized in Sydney, Australia"*
_Michael Collins Ph.D.  Aaron Heagney B.Sc.  Frank Cordaro Ph.D.  David Odgers  Gregory Tarrant Ph.D. Samantha Stewart B.Sc._
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.669.819&rep=rep1&type=pdf 

It discusses the cis and trans isomer of the glycidate ester of MDP2P. If these labs are getting the MDP2P glycidate in varying isomeric ratios from the suppliers (which is perfectly possible as they come across as seperate fractions when distilling) this would surely also have an effect on the yields and purity of the MDP2P and in turn the MDMA? Not to mention whatever creative ways they're utilising for possible one-pot reactions as mentioned.

A.


----------



## G_Chem

Hell ya Biscuit,

So last time you stopped in with the previous report we were talking about platinum hydrogenation as the possible new reduction.  But with this new data and relooking at the old data, it was likely not as popular as we thought.  It appears those numbers were skewed by a few large seizures for 2014 and 2016.

But back to this "unclassified" reduction, this is huge...  This correlates with, I think Hilo, saying a vendor or chemist was claiming someone had discovered a new easy way to churn out product.  We find this out and we will be one step closer to having our answer.

-GC


----------



## psy997

G_Chem said:


> We find this out and we will be one step closer to having our answer.
> 
> -GC



As I see it, our answer will not be singular, but multiple. This seems like an amazing lead and, there's been shitty stuff in different regions at different times that almost undoubtedly was produced differently. I think an important piece of this puzzle is remembering that we're likely dealing with multiple factors.


----------



## Beenhead

Hilo, Been a way a while but is it possible to ask them if they can do any 2d NMR analysis on those samples you looked at? 

Like NOSY or similar?


----------



## Hilopsilo

Beenhead said:


> Hilo, Been a way a while but is it possible to ask them if they can do any 2d NMR analysis on those samples you looked at?
> 
> Like NOSY or similar?



I asked them for info and they won't even reply to my emails really disappointing.


----------



## G_Chem

@psy- I agree, I feel instead of coming to anyone one definitive answer we'll instead slowly gain a general understanding.

@Hilo- Really sad they won't take it further, but I know there is government pressure (at least in the states and probably other countries by proxy) to not release too much information.  I forget their exact reasoning but it has to do with branding and competition between chemists.  Essentially they don't want people knowing which product is better or worse, beyond knowing there is no dangerous adulterants...

I still think that analysis was a good success on our parts though.  That was the first side by side done of two samples; one good and one bad, not only giving us % but also the major impurity of the bad sample.  It wasn't as much as we wanted but still better than most.

-GC


----------



## NewTopic

Sorry to get off topic.
Does the Safrole based MDMA smell the same as pmk cly ? 

Obviously the old smell of root bear being the Safrole most would say but is the other way a smellless synth ?


----------



## G_Chem

^^Good question that I'd say is still on topic.

Based on what I'm seeing and hearing, much of the modern MDMA that is presumably from PMK glycidate does not have that safrole smell.  (Often the smell today is simply described as "chemically.") It's possible it could smell similar if it was converted to PMK then synthed to MDMA, but even that is slightly different.  On top of that it's likely many chemists have discovered a way to avoid that step.

It seems that sassy smell is indicative of good product but not always.  Back in the early 2000's many pills and product had that sassy smell.

-GC


----------



## Woodsybear

I'm in the UK and I (because I am very caring of my pet newt) started doing pills in the.late 90's early 2000's. I remember I did 4 maybe 6 of pills that were around at the time and was spacing out so hard I would hallucinate so hard I would talk nonsense and see dragons in the bushes. What could have been in those pills back then to cause this? Mda? I remember having full on conversations with people which ended up being plant pits


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Definitely sounds like MDA.  Or super high dose of MDMA.  But more likely MDA.  That shit can have you in another world with crazy hallucinations.

-GC


----------



## Woodsybear

Swim used to say the strangest things. Out of his mind things


----------



## psy997

We don't allow the use of SWIM here. It provides no legal protection and makes posts harder to read.


----------



## Woodsybear

Okay. No worries


----------



## NewTopic

I used to think the same in regards to the smell being a tell tale sign that it was high quality product. However the first stuff I ever tried was white powder/crushed , no smell whatsoever and it was the most intense euphoric experience I've had to date. 

I think it might be like this. 
PMK Gyl > MDMA = No Smell 
Safrole > MDMA = Strong Smell 
Safrole > MDMA > Purified = Little to No Smell 

I always found that the dirtier the looking MDMA seemed to get me more smashed...possible impurities causing this. But I guess this all leads back into the discussion around impurities causing stray effects or little effects and whether the isomers have changed due to precursor or method change.


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> ^^Good question that I'd say is still on topic.
> 
> Based on what I'm seeing and hearing, much of the modern MDMA that is presumably from PMK glycidate does not have that safrole smell.  (Often the smell today is simply described as "chemically.") It's possible it could smell similar if it was converted to PMK then synthed to MDMA, but even that is slightly different.  On top of that it's likely many chemists have discovered a way to avoid that step.
> 
> It seems that sassy smell is indicative of good product but not always.  Back in the early 2000's many pills and product had that sassy smell.
> 
> -GC



C'mon that's ridiculous though, we have zero actual evidence to support that chemists have "discovered a way to avoid that step" thus creating MDMA without the smell. That hinges on like half a dozen assumptions. We can only logically stick with what we know, this is kinda of like the fentanyl rabbit hole we almost went down a page or two back.

As far as we know, PMK Gly has to be made into MDP2P, just like any other synth, hence giving it the "safrole smell". The crappy stuff I had definitely had the safrole smell, and the vast majority of MDMA I've had has had the safrole smell. In fact, I can't really think of a time I've had MDMA that didn't have the safrole smell (except with the MagicDMA I've got). Considering that I've heard that its likely not much at all is made from safrole anymore, this wouldn't make sense that PMK Gly would create scentless MDMA since pretty much ever sample of MDMA I've come across in the last 5 years has smelled of anise.

I think its more important info, and was certainly news to me, that the "safrole smell" confirms nothing about what it was made from, yet I had always thought the general consensus was that the "safrole smell" was indicative of MDMA made from safrole, since thats what safrole smells like. What is maybe useful, is that I've never seen or had MDA that had a safrole smell to it, its always a scentless white powder (which is why my initial suspicion about the MagicDMA was that it was simply MDA, but lab and reagent tests says its MDMA). What is different about the creation of MDA that leaves no smell? 

I vaguely remember someone mentioning safrole had a different smell than MDP2P or something like, but that they were quite similar. I think we'd all be hard pressed to somehow be able to sniff a batch of MDMA and definitively determine which batch was truly made from safrole.



NewTopic said:


> I used to think the same in regards to the smell being a tell tale sign that it was high quality product. However the first stuff I ever tried was white powder/crushed , no smell whatsoever and it was the most intense euphoric experience I've had to date.
> 
> I think it might be like this.
> PMK Gyl > MDMA = No Smell
> Safrole > MDMA = Strong Smell
> Safrole > MDMA > Purified = Little to No Smell
> 
> I always found that the dirtier the looking MDMA seemed to get me more smashed...possible impurities causing this. But I guess this all leads back into the discussion around impurities causing stray effects or little effects and whether the isomers have changed due to precursor or method change.



That seems to be the running theme to me, Le Junk's good stuff, the MagicDMA I got ahold of, and now as you say your experience, were scentless white/clear crystals.

There is no actual evidence that PMK Gyl > MDMA = No Smell, 99% of the thousands of vendor listings claim that smell for their product, yet PMK gly has been established as the main precursor by a massive majority.


----------



## NewTopic

Hilopsilo said:


> That seems to be the running theme to me, Le Junk's good stuff, the MagicDMA I got ahold of, and now as you say your experience, were scentless white/clear crystals.
> 
> There is no actual evidence that PMK Gyl > MDMA = No Smell, 99% of the thousands of vendor listings claim that smell for their product, yet PMK gly has been established as the main precursor by a massive majority.



Well that's understandable then. 
What causes the MDP2P to smell in that way or is that just a natural smell it gives off ? 

The MDMA I have at the moment has no scent what so ever but I believe it's PMK-GYL based since it's from Europe, odds are definately in that favour. 

Otherwise if it's not the smell it could be the impurities caused by the reaction converting Safrole to MDP2P , since PMK-GYL is completely synthetic and possibly leaving these impurities caused a different effect.. but the most pure MDMA was scentless like you stated and I've experienced so that would mean washing the impurities out. 

So... i'm leaning on isomers, I mean honestly what do we have other then this. 
We've had two MDMA tested and one was stronger then the other for no reason really since both were high purity, other then that it could have contained some left over synth stuff which caused the effect to diminish but I just can't see that happening, unless it blocked a certain receptor or caused a chemical that stopped the MDMA from being more potent much like some chemicals or vitamins before taking MDMA. 

Also few posts back Ashley pointed out this. 

This paper is really relevant to the topic at hand, not sure if it's been mentioned previously:

*"Methyl 3-[3',4'-(methylenedioxy)phenyl]-2-methyl glycidate: An Ecstasy Precursor Seized in Sydney, Australia"
Michael Collins Ph.D. Aaron Heagney B.Sc. Frank Cordaro Ph.D. David Odgers Gregory Tarrant Ph.D. Samantha Stewart B.Sc.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc...=rep1&type=pdf 

It discusses the cis and trans isomer of the glycidate ester of MDP2P. If these labs are getting the MDP2P glycidate in varying isomeric ratios from the suppliers (which is perfectly possible as they come across as seperate fractions when distilling) this would surely also have an effect on the yields and purity of the MDP2P and in turn the MDMA? Not to mention whatever creative ways they're utilising for possible one-pot reactions as mentioned.

*Which is pretty interesting considering the different isomers, I think looking at research from governments we can learn alot such as what is being used to cook as a precursor and also methods. If there was a new method found, that shit would be everywhere by now surely.


----------



## Glubrahnum

NewTopic said:


> I think it might be like this:
> PMK Gyl > MDMA
> Safrole > MDMA


Actually, the well known synths proceed like this:

PMK Gly > PMK > MDMA
Safrole > PMK > MDMA 

Safrole and PMK have a very similar natural smell.


----------



## G_Chem

@Hilo- I beg you to actually read what I wrote in that post and elsewhere..

I never said PMK gly to MDMA was scentless and in fact I described (in that post) based on other people's anecdotes what it could smell like, that is "chemically" compared to the anise smell of days past.  Obviously not the best description but I'm not the one smelling shitty MDMA.

Remember I've only recently tried MDMA with a safrole smell (to good effect..) almost everything I've had before was highly purified MDMA that was often clear with zero smell.  I agree that scentless MDMA is often a good sign of more pure product.

And in fact there is evidence that chemists have found a way to skip straight from PMK glycidate to MDMA.  We'll start with the report Biscuit linked that showed a sudden change of reductive methods to Platinum Hydrogenation and "Unclassified Methods."  Of course we don't know these new methods but I can say that theoretically one could convert the PMK glycidate to Mdp2p then instantly MDMA via one method shown on Erowid for Platinum hydrogenation.

Next we have, I believe your own statement from an online vendor that "someone has found a new ultra easy way to synthesize MDMA."  This would correlate with the change in reduction used shown by Biscuit.

Glubra's analysis of two samples both of which contained 2,3-MDP2P glycidate..  Now I can't imagine why anyone would put straight precursor into a pill or bag for sale and often when this happens it's the result of a failed synthesis.  If that were the case then it could be presumed someone or some people tried synthesizing straight from the glycidate.  My theory is that possibly the new method for whatever reason did not work for 2,3 like it does for 3,4.

And finally, I remember another quote some pages back where someone talks about the fact they've found a way to do a one pot reaction from PMK glycidate to MDMA.

Regarding the differing of smells between safrole and MDP2P, that was me who said that.  I should apologize I suppose because unless the person in question is familiar with these slight variations in smell they likely won't know the difference.  I can smell a bag and tell if it's safrole or MDP2P, granted I've never taken MDMA with residual ketone but I know the smell from many years ago.

And if we want to talk about assumptions let's again remember that not ALL mdma is made from PMK glycidate, there is still lots of safrole MDMA about, especially in your neck of the woods..

One final thing, lots of MDA I've had even the ultra pure crystal clear shards has had the slightest safrole scent/taste.  In fact I just bought some super Stanky dark brown "sass" over in the PNW earlier this summer, probably won't eat it but might in the name of science.

The better question regarding MDA is why it's so rare and expensive over in Europe but plentiful and cheap in certain areas of the US.  Higher amounts of MDA correlate well with areas that still see safrole MDMA..  (Canada and all along the northern US border.)

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> @Hilo- I beg you to actually read what I wrote in that post and elsewhere..
> 
> I never said PMK gly to MDMA was scentless and in fact I described (in that post) based on other people's anecdotes what it could smell like, that is "chemically" compared to the anise smell of days past.  Obviously not the best description but I'm not the one smelling shitty MDMA.
> 
> Remember I've only recently tried MDMA with a safrole smell (to good effect..) almost everything I've had before was highly purified MDMA that was often clear with zero smell.  I agree that scentless MDMA is often a good sign of more pure product.
> 
> And in fact there is evidence that chemists have found a way to skip straight from PMK glycidate to MDMA.  We'll start with the report Biscuit linked that showed a sudden change of reductive methods to Platinum Hydrogenation and "Unclassified Methods."  Of course we don't know these new methods but I can say that theoretically one could convert the PMK glycidate to Mdp2p then instantly MDMA via one method shown on Erowid for Platinum hydrogenation.
> 
> Next we have, I believe your own statement from an online vendor that "someone has found a new ultra easy way to synthesize MDMA."  This would correlate with the change in reduction used shown by Biscuit.
> 
> Glubra's analysis of two samples both of which contained 2,3-MDP2P glycidate..  Now I can't imagine why anyone would put straight precursor into a pill or bag for sale and often when this happens it's the result of a failed synthesis.  If that were the case then it could be presumed someone or some people tried synthesizing straight from the glycidate.  My theory is that possibly the new method for whatever reason did not work for 2,3 like it does for 3,4.
> 
> And finally, I remember another quote some pages back where someone talks about the fact they've found a way to do a one pot reaction from PMK glycidate to MDMA.
> 
> Regarding the differing of smells between safrole and MDP2P, that was me who said that.  I should apologize I suppose because unless the person in question is familiar with these slight variations in smell they likely won't know the difference.  I can smell a bag and tell if it's safrole or MDP2P, granted I've never taken MDMA with residual ketone but I know the smell from many years ago.
> 
> And if we want to talk about assumptions let's again remember that not ALL mdma is made from PMK glycidate, there is still lots of safrole MDMA about, especially in your neck of the woods..
> 
> One final thing, lots of MDA I've had even the ultra pure crystal clear shards has had the slightest safrole scent/taste.  In fact I just bought some super Stanky dark brown "sass" over in the PNW earlier this summer, probably won't eat it but might in the name of science.
> 
> The better question regarding MDA is why it's so rare and expensive over in Europe but plentiful and cheap in certain areas of the US.  Higher amounts of MDA correlate well with areas that still see safrole MDMA..  (Canada and all along the northern US border.)
> 
> -GC



I apologize, I shouldn't have jumped on your case like that, my bad. I didn't want anyone new to the conversation to get any definitive ideas about what we're (trying to) figuring out here and what we know already, especially concerning the subjective smell of a street drug. As far as any of us should be concerned, any smell is an impurity, and the specific smell, anise or safrole, whatever, is an impurity. In places where adulterated "Molly" is common, the smell can be a good way to figure out if what you have is MDMA, but doesn't mean much about the quality and I think we're much past determining what we have is in fact MDMA.

I see a reasonable amount of claims from digging around other forums that stuff stuff made from PMK gly "just isn't the same", but there is no actual substantiation for this other than "well in the good ol days it came from safrole!". 

How would you confirm that canadian stuff is truly made from safrole? I know there is a good bit produced in Canada, but I doubt theres a way to definitively tell if what you get has been made here since I imagine there is plenty of international product around as well (I see vendors claim canadian made, but I also see them boast that they've imported top notch dutch product). Basically, its just difficult to tell if someone is telling the truth, trying to market a product or has been given misinformation. 

I feel like at this point we've hit a bit of a roadblock, we simply need more information. Maybe you're onto something with the production methods, but we need more intimate info about that, and panhandling for info from vendors wasn't the most comfortable thing I've done lol. And even then, no way to know if the vendors really know what they're talking about (considering half the fucking listings advertise the stupid 84% thing). Might go in for another dig though.


----------



## Biscuit

This is what I posted a little while ago in respect of the claim of a new one pot synthesis of MDMA from the PMK-glycidate, made to a Mixmag journalist during his infiltration of some PMK-glycidate chemical factory. 



Biscuit said:


> Whilst I don't doubt that some labs cannot properly distinguish between certain regioisomers of MDMA, there's just no way a fully fledged government laboratory tasked by the authorities to precisely analyze all illicit substances for the purposes of prosecution, would mistake 2,3-MD for 3,4-MD. If the lab cannot distinguish these two then the whole process of reliably and accurately identifying potentially illegal substances would grind to a halt. In many jurisdictions 2,3-MD wouldn't even be prohibited and the system just would not tolerate a person being prosecuted for possessing or selling 3,4-MDMA if they in actual fact had 2,3-MDMA.
> 
> I continue to come back to the glycidate as being the genesis of the problem and the solution perhaps lies in what these labs actually do with this substance when making MDMA.
> 
> Of course high purity PMK glycidate can be easily turned into PMK, that can then be vacuum distilled to provide near pure PMK; this being surely near identical to similarly purified safrole produced PMK, with any MDMA manufactured from this being entirely awesome. However, this clearly isn't what is happening when we are talking about MDMA being made from this particular pre-precursor on an industrial scale.
> 
> Have a look at this article:
> http://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory
> Now put aside what you might legitimately think about the provenance of the article and instead focus on the quite extraordinary statement in the paragraph immediately after the photo of the road with the blue Asian street sign:
> 
> _He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn't just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. "It achieves complex molecular changes in a single concerted step, almost like watching a solar system of planets align". "Elegant" is a good word for it, too. "It's the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it's explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration," he said._
> 
> If this is true then does anyone actually know what is happening in these reactions and what sort of products might be produced?
> 
> Earlier in this thread i cited a European article that confirmed that around the time of the switch to the glycidate, the reducing agent of choice used for the reductive amination step changed markedly from a borohydride to hydrogenation over a platinum metal catalyst. Why make this change unless the reaction is now substantially different to just using pure PMK and pure methylamine like the good old days; does this catalyst allow for a one reaction hydrolysis and reductive amination step which the earlier far more commonly used reducing agents did not?
> 
> If this is correct then any number of consequences might arise:
> 
> - the product would not be racemic especially if only one enantiomer of the chiral glycidate is used.
> 
> - what on earth is produced when the glycidate is hydrolyzed and would this also undergo reductive animation to produce who knows what kind of toxic alkyl amine in the same reaction (and which would be removed by advanced purification steps that others have discussed and which seems to greatly assist)
> 
> - there are multiple different PMK glycidate type pre-precursors being used already and no doubt the products resulting from a one ?step? or ?pot? amination to MDMA would vary wildly in nature and number, depending on the specific pre-precursor being used
> 
> - what impact might using heavy metal catalysts have on the purity of the product, especially if it is reused in massive reactions over and over again, with the catalyst no doubt being sourced from an industry that is not manufacturing chemicals for human consumption.
> 
> This simply confirms that we need to know, to a high degree of scientific detail, the answer to these questions:
> 
> (1) The identity of the various impurities found in samples of MDMA these days which are materially different from the sorts of impurities which have always been found in illicitly produced MDMA;
> (2) The enantiomeric (S:R) ratio of the MDMA; is it racemic as many people still believe or are many samples out there skewed in a particular direction (likely the R if anything);
> (3) The precise chemical identity of all the pre-precursors currently being used to manufacture MDMA; PMK glycidate is one but there are at least several more;
> (4) What manufacturing methods are used to convert the pre-precursor to MDMA, in particular is: (i) MDMA being made via some type of "one-pot" synthesis or is there some attempt to extract and purify the PMK first, and (ii) what chemicals are used in the reductive amination part of the process; and
> (4) What really happens at a molecular level when these glycidates/gycidic esters etc hydrolyze into separate components and do the "other components" involve themselves in later aspects of the process (or are otherwise not removed from the product produced) - people assume it is simple and assume these pre-precursors simply produce PMK to be used at the manufacturer's leisure in a later reaction, forgetting that there is an entire half a molecule floating around the vessel which is completely absent when purified PMK on its own.
> 
> Personally, I think the reality of what we are dealing with is potentially even more complicated than the nature of the discussions to date and which may reveal a considerably worse state of affairs than what we have arrived at currently (which is already bad enough!)
> 
> Any thoughts?


----------



## NewTopic

Thanks Biscuit! 
Really interesting read there, I guess an idea would be to look through raids and stuff throughout the Netherlands and see what's actually there for clues.
Alot of them have hydrogen gas and caustic soda. 

There is also a video on youtube of one of the labs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBISUPuVjok
Which surprisingly has a nice big reaction vessel (guessing). 

So having that one vessel would that mean one pot method or just a step in the production.


----------



## Darksidesam

^ i bet some people on here would take a dab off that hand shovel lol


----------



## Dresden

PMK-glycidate is made from safrole.


----------



## NewTopic

Dresden said:


> PMK-glycidate is made from safrole.


I think PMK-Glycidate is fully synthetic


----------



## Glubrahnum

Biscuit said:


> This is what I posted a little while ago in respect of the claim of a new one pot synthesis of MDMA from the PMK-glycidate, made to a Mixmag journalist during his infiltration of some PMK-glycidate chemical factory:
> 
> "_*He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn't just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. "It achieves complex molecular changes in a single concerted step, almost like watching a solar system of planets align". "Elegant" is a good word for it, too. "It's the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it's explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration," he said.*_"


I heard similar stories from people who were bragging to be involved in manufacturing.  Unfortunately, they all were acting very secretively and did not want to give me any technical details.

Maybe this journalist could be persuaded to divulge it, seeing that toxicity (LTC), doses and mortality went up in recent years.
Such information would help me to develop a specific test, tremendously!



Biscuit said:


> ...the reducing agent of choice used for the reductive amination step changed markedly from a borohydride to hydrogenation over a platinum metal catalyst.


The presence of MDP2Pol in some samples seems to support that hydrogentaion is occurring, because the addition of hydrogen to PMK yields MDP2Pol.



Biscuit said:


> the product would not be racemic especially if only one enantiomer of the chiral glycidate is used.


Yes, this is very significant



Biscuit said:


> what on earth is produced when the glycidate is hydrolyzed and would this also undergo reductive animation to produce who knows what kind of toxic alkyl amine in the same reaction


We explored this in this post:


Glubrahnum said:


> Nasty stuff:  Glycidol, Glycidamide, Glycidic acid and various prop-2-enoyl compounds which can be aminated to such things as Acrylamide







Biscuit said:


> people assume it is simple and assume these pre-precursors simply produce PMK to be used at the manufacturer's leisure in a later reaction, forgetting that there is an entire *half a molecule* floating around the vessel which is completely absent when purified PMK on its own.


Yes, when that half of a molecule is not discarded and it is subjected to the same reduction and amination and methylation reactions, as naked PMK would, then all kind of crap is produced.




Biscuit said:


> (3) The precise chemical identity of all the pre-precursors currently being used to manufacture MDMA; PMK glycidate is one but there are at least several more;


Lately, t-BOC MDMA seems to be the fashionable one (see the formula below):


----------



## Biscuit

^ Brilliant post Glubrahnum, thank you. 

The more complex pre-precursors are going to leave all sorts of novel and very likely harmful contaminants behind in any PMK and/or MDMA made from such chemicals, unless appropriate purifications steps are undertaken each step of the way (which you can bet they will not be).  

I do recall reading in one of the recent publications, whether it was an Australian one or European I cannot recall, that MDA is definitely now being routinely manufactured from t-BOC-MDA. 

If anyone had access to the raw data (i.e. GC-MS spectra, IR-spectra, NMR etc) kept by forensic government laboratories tasked with analysing MDMA seizures, then the answer or answers to this issue would become apparent pretty quickly. 

Whilst I agree with the post above about there likely being many differences which are at play here, given the significant and identifiable shift in subjective experiences with a majority of MDMA obtained these days and the significant and identifiable shift in the way (which includes the chemicals being utilised) in which MDMA is manufactured, both of which seem to be correlated to roughly the same point in time (which is not a coincidence), I firmly belief that there will be just one or two (and the two being related) critical differences or changes which are the dominant and overriding cause of the present situation.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

By the vague description of lackluster effects I've seen referred to as 'mongy', I would say that impurities; byproducts of synth which are probably not all that active on their own, is augmenting the MDMA experience in a similar way that minor alkaloids can set coca and opium apart from pure cocaine and morphine (not exactly the same thing but you catch my drift).

One major issue I have with this thread, is that it targets and greatly generalises, unfairly on modern MDMA.

For one, quality product is very much alive and well. Second, there are thousands of different batches - saying "today's MDMA" is like saying "today's socks" when there are thousands of sock manufacturers, all producing a different style and quality of sock.

I'm sure if you ask Le Junk about that, he'll tell you "socks these days ain't as hole-proof as they were back in 1988 when the socks were magic and you could walk across hot coals in your socks all night and still feel a nice afterglow the next day".

Final point, I was getting MDMA years ago that tested up as MDMA in the lab, but was subjectively different than other batches that tested up the same. I just assumed the same thing then that I assume now: Impurities.

I'm sure it was the same in the 80s and 90s too; I believe what people call mongy now was just 'smacky' back then.

This whole thing's been blown out of proportion. I mean, 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine citrate polymers with uneven enantiomer ratios? Sure. Maybe.

Maybe safrole is being extracted from camphor laurel harvested in the rum jungle? Think about that. Isotopes and shit..

Anyhow, good day.


----------



## NewTopic

I completely under stand your point Kaden_Nite and that may be so!

Personally I started MDMA back in 2010 and I know what I felt then doesn't feel like that now, whether that's because I've done too much and all the rest is going to be debatable but ultimately the feeling has changed for me and many other people. 

I went camping last year and took some white powder MDMA that had been triple washed / recrystallized by a very high up the chain source so all the impurities should have gone and to be fair it felt very clean.. but .. it wasn't strong surprisingly, I felt more relaxed then anything and I didn't get much Euphoria at all, even some shitty MDMA could have given me more of an experience. 

So if your saying impurities are the cause of it being not good, then i'd have that as evidence to disagree but yet again, maybe i'm just fried and if a new person tried this, they would be blown away.. anyone's guess. I think the ideal situation is that new people test the MDMA we have now and see what there effects are like much like someone has already done on here and I for one will be testing this on one or two people in a few weeks time. 

You can also say that more impurities are sometimes better, but without looking into it's chemical structure as well as isomers it's hard to say.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Kaden_Nite said:


> By the vague description of lackluster effects I've seen referred to as 'mongy', I would say that impurities; byproducts of synth which are probably not all that active on their own, is augmenting the MDMA experience in a similar way that minor alkaloids can set coca and opium apart from pure cocaine and morphine (not exactly the same thing but you catch my drift).
> *
> One major issue I have with this thread, is that it targets and greatly generalises, unfairly on modern MDMA.
> 
> For one, quality product is very much alive and well.* Second, there are thousands of different batches - saying "today's MDMA" is like saying "today's socks" when there are thousands of sock manufacturers, all producing a different style and quality of sock.
> 
> I'm sure if you ask Le Junk about that, he'll tell you "socks these days ain't as hole-proof as they were back in 1988 when the socks were magic and you could walk across hot coals in your socks all night and still feel a nice afterglow the next day".
> 
> Final point, I was getting MDMA years ago that tested up as MDMA in the lab, but was subjectively different than other batches that tested up the same. I just assumed the same thing then that I assume now: Impurities.
> 
> I'm sure it was the same in the 80s and 90s too; I believe what people call mongy now was just 'smacky' back then.
> 
> This whole thing's been blown out of proportion. I mean, 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine citrate polymers with uneven enantiomer ratios? Sure. Maybe.
> 
> Maybe safrole is being extracted from camphor laurel harvested in the rum jungle? Think about that. Isotopes and shit..
> 
> Anyhow, good day.



Exactly what I've been saying... It creates this in-group out-group dynamic in the conversation and screams burnt out ravers rather than people actually trying to go get to the bottom of something. But I feel that it has changed, at least in the last 10 pages maybe, but the title of the thread is kinda here to stay. 

At this point, unless we can get more trustworthy info, I think it is also just some sort of impurity(ies). The crappy stuff I had analyzed had significant amounts of leftover precursor and relatively less actual MDMA in it than the sample I sent in that I found to be outstandingly good. Those two points I think show that the MDMA was bad craftsmanship, and its likely more was wrong with it than they were able to tell me. What about poorly made MDMA makes it bad even if the actual MDMA content is comparable to good stuff? Could be so many different things and there is really no way to know, think of all the substances that active at microgram doses.

Personally, I'm just avoiding anything that isn't colorless and scentless. All I can really do is avoid the characteristics of the bad stuff. I don't roll often so I've got a lot of time to track it down. I'll continue to test samples with the service downtown and post info here!


----------



## indigoaura

I kind of hate to post this, but will anyway, for the sake of Science. 

I experimented again on Friday with the DW product I previously experimented with in early July.

My previous experience resulted in a more traditional MDMA feeling, although the product seemed a bit weak. I had no after effects, and had a pleasant afterglow for the entire next day. 

I expected a similar reaction on Friday, but I ended up with a totally different result. 

Going into the experience, I was having a bit of a stomach upset. I ate an early dinner around 5:30 pm. My stomach continued to feel upset after dinner. Leading up to this evening, I had a lot going on at work. Decent amount of stress. I considered changing plans. However, it was a concert I had looked forward too, so I decided to stick with my plan.

For most of the day Friday, I had been in a good mood and felt excited about the evening.

I took the same starting dose that I took previously: 130 mg @ 8:30.

In July, I had a come-up in under 30 minutes. I had a rushy come-up. 

For this experience, I did not begin to come-up until 10:30 pm. Phenomenally off. Very mistimed for the concert. The come-up itself was slow and difficult to even identify at the concert. The show ended at 11:00 pm, and I went home with some friends. 

Took a follow-up dose when I got home, maybe around midnight. Same as before.

Never really rolled that hard. Had a decent enough time. Laid around, listened to music. The music did not sound that great, and I did not feel that much like talking. No "confessional" quality to the experience.

I assumed that my dinner and upset stomach had messed with my absorption in some way. Since I had previously thought it was a weak product, I took a third dose (I know, I know...). Now, in July I took a third dose too. However, on that occasion, I took a third dose of the mehDMA because I did not have any more DW MDMA with me. The only difference in the 3rd dose was the supplier and abt 30 mg. (I thought this product was weaker, so I took more). 

Nothing particularly magical happened all night. Sex was not mind-blowing.

At the end of the evening though, things went a bit off the rails. I got very nauseous and thought I would vomit. Had to lay down. Jaw clenching was annoying. Basically stayed horizontal for the rest of the night, and most of the next day. Today, I am having annoying stomach issues: dizziness, nausea, indigestion, burping, gas etc.

Psychologically, I feel fine. Don't feel depressed or anything. There was no afterglow, however, and this nausea nonsense is probably going to keep me home from work.

So...wtf happened?

Different from the MehDMA still. I never felt cold, for example. Never felt sleepy exactly. Mostly, felt like a weak roll that went wrong.

Best theories I can come up with are that whatever was going on with my stomach/dinner really changed the nature of the roll. Maybe nothing was hitting me fully, and then when I digested more food everything snuck up on me and hit me at once? Also, maybe I did not have the right mind-state going in to this with all the recent stress, and that made me less capable of a positive experience. Finally, maybe 3 months is not a long enough break for me in between rolls, and I need a 6 month or longer break. Maybe I can't handle a third dose anymore and I need to stick to two.

I'm not sure, and it is a bit confounding. This does seem to show that the stomach problems I have are not related to a particular batch as much as they are the result of other factors. Also, this does show the power of mind-state and food in shifting the positivity of an experience.


----------



## indigoaura

A few other comments...

I once gave some of the MehDMA to a virgin user. I asked how she liked it, and she shrugged. This was years ago, and I was not thinking as much about the product being different. I did not pay attention to eye dilation, for example. But, she stayed on her feet all night and seemed completely sober. I really don't think it is a "burnt out raver" issue. Although that could be argued for me, that is not true of everyone who is having these sub-par experiences.

There are all kinds of new, questionable synthesis routes. I don't know what I can post here. I have seen recipes for fuel based synthesis methods with aluminum and other methods that I have not even seen discussed here. There's just no telling how many variations there are, or how many short-cuts are being used.

As for the colorless/scentless vs. safrole smell conversation...my personal experience has been that the stuff that smells like safrole is better. However, I doubt that is any kind of rule that can be followed, as I am sure chemists are dumping "root beer flavoring" into their batches to make the smell if they want to. 

I still think the best way forward is to find a lab we can all pay to start a project with. We need someone who will run a full, detailed, analysis. We need a database of results that can be cross referenced with personal experiences. Ecstasy data seems like a waste of time, as they just will not run the kind of analysis we need. I don't know who else is out there in other countries. 

What about contacting researchers at universities? Is this type of research even legal currently?


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> I once gave some of the MehDMA to a virgin user. I asked how she liked it, and she shrugged. This was years ago, and I was not thinking as much about the product being different. I did not pay attention to eye dilation, for example. But, she stayed on her feet all night and seemed completely sober. I really don't think it is a "burnt out raver" issue.


Yes, virgin experiences are special and must be analyzed differently. 
The pupils, trismus and hypertaxia should be observed closely. Pulse and temperature, too.



indigoaura said:


> What about contacting researchers at universities? Is this type of research even legal currently?


It's not a problem of having access to people with expensive test equipment. It is a problem, that in most jurisdictions is it illegal for analysts to handle MDMA knowingly.

That's why, I repeatedly asked whether anyone knows a jurisdiction where one can set up shop and openly receive samples without risking being arrested, raided and having the equipment confiscated.

P.S.
It is still possible to test unknown samples in commercial labs anonymously by asking only for the raw spectrograms, ...without their interpretation....but it is a hassle for the submitter to protect his identity from eventual per/prosecution.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Kaden_Nite said:


> This whole thing's been blown out of proportion. I mean, 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine citrate polymers with uneven enantiomer ratios? Sure. Maybe.


Where have you read about a detection of 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine lately ?
...or its Citrate salt ?


----------



## indigoaura

Also, gotta say that anyone coming on with a one-off comment about how this is being blown out of proportion should have at least read the full 54 pages, links, and the associated thread.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

indigoaura said:


> a one-off comment


Wrong 


indigoaura said:


> read the full 54 pages


I've been reading along with everyone else, as I'm _certain_ that you have sir 


Glubrahnum said:


> Where have you read about a detection of 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine lately ?
> ...or its Citrate salt ?


So we can cross 2,3-mdma citrate polymers off the list? Good to know 

In all seriousness, this discussion regarding MDMA not only pre-dates this thread, but is virtually universal to drugs. Even with pharmaceuticals (not only psychoactive drugs either) people not only have their brand preferences, but often swear that two different brands of the same compound are different, or that one is more effective.

MDPV, 6-apb, MXE & 3-meo-pcp are a few recent RC/recreational drugs which have been the subject of this discussion. Modern acid and coke seem to be looked down on by a lot of retro hippies and disco freaks too.

One thing I've noticed: Sometimes, when the lab doesn't tell people what they want to hear, the lab is wrong.

.. Which is actually what brings me here. In the interest of HR, I might ask that people trust their friendly neighbourhood testing laboratory a little more than a thread where guesses are thrown around like punches in an Alabama steakhouse.

I like this thread, I do, but it's all theory until you have a lab and trials backing up what you're saying, and I can't really see funding coming easily when the basis of your research is figuring out why your eyes didn't dilate with last night's batch of disco sugar the same way they did when you double-dropped white Volvos at Burning Man that one time.

To the dude who paid to have his stuff tested: A legitimate thank you - and to everyone here who means well, which I believe is everyone. Even if I don't necessarily agree that there's anything wrong with today's MDMA.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Sorry to hear your experience didn't go well indigo, if I'm understanding correctly, you took the same MDMA but had a vastly different experience? While I do believe there is certainly something wrong with some of the MDMA going around, set & setting are still huge factors that are hard to control for. I have in the past had experiences with MDMA where I was stressed or not in a good mindset going in causing me to sort of fight the roll a bit, and it ends in a conflicted somewhat subdued experience. MY best times with the best MDMA have certainly correlated with the best set & settings. If it hadn't been for what I experienced personally (and what everyone I was with experienced, and have experienced since then), I'd probably still standby that all of this is simply set & setting. The difference was just too striking in such a short time frame. 

This might sound counterintuitive, but a good portion of the times I have rolled have been at multi-day events where I roll twice. I think pretty much every time, I roll equally or stronger the second time. I chalk part of this up to being more comfortable in that environment and having already gone through the motions 1 or 2 nights before, I can better embrace the experience without any reluctancy to "feel the love".

On another subject, I went snooping around some vendor listings in search of "clear MDMA". It's incredibly illusive, there are thousands of listings and a handful are white let alone full on clear crystals. But, what I do notice is that listings for this description usually include a little more info than the usual "84% DUTCH MDMA SUPER FIRE CHAMPAGNE", and it usually involves distancing themselves from the rest of the MDMA listings. I found two listings I hadn't seen before and maybe what they mentioned is useful:

"_Our product starts as snow white crystals, then we acetone wash and recrystallize it creating the cleanest, smoothest, whitest MDMA. Nothing even comes close_" I guess this might suggest acetone washing MDMA might be useful in removing unwanted crap, and that the unwanted crap could impact the experience (which is why you want to remove it!). This does seem silly to me that some chemist would go through all the trouble of making MDMA and then not simply acetone wash it to produce at least a better looking product? Seems lazy.

"_Best MDMA you can grab! White, as it should be. Synthesized, not cooked. Not from NL! No good MDMA since __ left the MDMA scene. This product is not __'s, but better_" Now this stuff, the picture was exactly like what I had, decent sized clear crystals that you can literally see through like glass. Again, distancing themselves from the dutch MDMA scene (another listing I posted about called the rest "dutch dirt"). I have not a clue what they mean by "synthesized not cooked", interesting though.

Also, Kaden, you gotta give us a liiiiiiiittle more credit than that (i know you're just messing around but still). Myself and probably 20 others took 100mg of one batch of MDMA, and not even 48 hours later took 100mg of another batch and the difference was night and day. I got both samples analyzed and would you look at that, the stuff we had the first night had a lower MDMA % and significant amounts of precursor leftover (but both reagent tests and even infrared spectrometers told me both were perfectly pure MDMA!). And not only difference in strength, but overall subjective effects were different. Not saying I agree with, or have the knowledge to definitively agree with, any of the theories being thrown around here, but I think there is certainly differences in batches of MDMA beyond "yep thats MDMA".

And to be fair, coke was probably better when the disco freaks had it. And I've met my fair share of wooks who go on about "family fluff" and different grades of LSD crystal lol.


----------



## NewTopic

indigoaura said:


> At the end of the evening though, things went a bit off the rails. I got very nauseous and thought I would vomit. Had to lay down. Jaw clenching was annoying. Basically stayed horizontal for the rest of the night, and most of the next day. Today, I am having annoying stomach issues: dizziness, nausea, indigestion, burping, gas etc.
> 
> Psychologically, I feel fine. Don't feel depressed or anything. There was no afterglow, however, and this nausea nonsense is probably going to keep me home from work.



You would not believe how much this relates to myself. 
After years of MDMA, last year I started to get these effects after taking MDMA.. not on the come up.. not while on the roll but on the comedown these would start to be apparent lasting well into the next day or two. 

I never felt like this before, but honestly i'm stopping because of this.. I usually vomit, feel absolutely sick for 1-2 days, glued to bed, fever, dizzy and no apatite. Just like you though, I don't feel depressed or anything, no afterglow it's just the physical sickness. 

Normally I take 200-250mg straight up and have handled this fine in the past, dosing up another 100-300mg in redose over a night (yes silly). But now even taking 200mg makes this happen so next time which is my last time, i'll be spreading the doses out like 100mg at a time to see if any effects. 

I just think that is weird you got these effects... and hey maybe it's unrelated still.. I don't know many if any people who experience these symptoms after.


----------



## NewTopic

Hilopsilo said:


> On another subject, I went snooping around some vendor listings in search of "clear MDMA". It's incredibly illusive, there are thousands of listings and a handful are white let alone full on clear crystals. But, what I do notice is that listings for this description usually include a little more info than the usual "84% DUTCH MDMA SUPER FIRE CHAMPAGNE", and it usually involves distancing themselves from the rest of the MDMA listings. I found two listings I hadn't seen before and maybe what they mentioned is useful:
> 
> "_Our product starts as snow white crystals, then we acetone wash and recrystallize it creating the cleanest, smoothest, whitest MDMA. Nothing even comes close_" I guess this might suggest acetone washing MDMA might be useful in removing unwanted crap, and that the unwanted crap could impact the experience (which is why you want to remove it!). This does seem silly to me that some chemist would go through all the trouble of making MDMA and then not simply acetone wash it to produce at least a better looking product? Seems lazy.
> 
> "_Best MDMA you can grab! White, as it should be. Synthesized, not cooked. Not from NL! No good MDMA since __ left the MDMA scene. This product is not __'s, but better_" Now this stuff, the picture was exactly like what I had, decent sized clear crystals that you can literally see through like glass. Again, distancing themselves from the dutch MDMA scene (another listing I posted about called the rest "dutch dirt"). I have not a clue what they mean by "synthesized not cooked", interesting though.



I have also seen a few listings with things like this. 
I firmly believe that cooks/chemists outside of NL really do not like the product coming from there and this has been said for many years now. Whether they know something we don't or maybe the quality is just poor compared. I'd have to say most of NL stuff seems for mass production, rather then meeting a quality expectation. 

I mean the 'cook' part sounds like a one pot reaction vessel, rather then a synthesis that involves multiple reactions and chemistry.
From what I have heard as well, pure MDMA doesn't form large boulder rocks like you see the dutch create, I believe grain size is generally high quality.


----------



## indigoaura

NewTopic: My partner and I both have these annoying, "sick" effects from the MehDMA. Consistently. Vitamin C reduces these effects a lot. If you take about 1500 mg vitamin C before you roll, and then another 1000 when you re-dose, and another 1500 before you go to bed, you can largely avoid these side effects. 

I did not do my usual vitamin C protocol because I was not taking the MehDMA, and I had no issues with sickness with this product when I took it in July.

HOWEVER last night, I was thinking and I realized that there was a difference. I used different capsules. And, the more I started thinking about it, I realized that the MehDMA has been packaged in one type of capsule (which I assume is gelatin), but the better MDMA was in vegetarian cellulose capsules. On Friday, I used gelatin capsules for the better MDMA. I did a bit of searching and read that some people react to gelatin with indigestion, upset stomach, belching, and nausea. 

I checked all my typical vitamins, and they are all in cellulose capsules. 

So, now I am wondering if I am one of those people who does not digest gelatin right, and if this is having an effect on how MDMA is absorbed, where the capsule breaks down, etc. Maybe the stomach upset is partially due to the gelatin.

This will be easy enough to test at a later date. But, you may want to re-pack your MDMA in cellulose capsules and see if that helps.


----------



## psy997

Good thinking, indigoaura. I'm not opposed to even small things such as capsule type having an effect on this phenomena.


----------



## NewTopic

indigoaura said:


> But, you may want to re-pack your MDMA in cellulose capsules and see if that helps.



That's a really interesting point and you could be right about how different packaging may cause it to be absorbed differently. 

I've only really started getting the effects since I started using pills, I used to do the crystal in caps all the time (i'll check what sort they are) but then I decided to do something different so I've been taking usually one dutch pill followed by crystal redoses. The pill just seems to hit a lot harder and there has been talk about pills being coated in something to help it get further into the digestion system ? 

I wonder if this could be the case and also relating to different capsule breakdown rates, this might effect serotonin receptors to somewhat be overwelmed or just make a nausea feeling more pronounced. Worth a look into for sure as you don't really think about that kind of thing you just think it hits the same way but it doesn't. 

For instance, when I snort MDMA without eating it .. I get absolutely no Euphoria what so ever and I feel really strange, heart rate up.. no thoughts.. just kinda empty. Most of the Serotonin is in the gut so maybe that's why, but then people put it up there ass and have a great time. Confused.


----------



## indigoaura

So, this is interesting: https://energycontrol-international.org/nausea-after-mdma/

If there are 5.HT receptors in the stomach that contribute to that initial rush/nausea of a come-up, then it seems logical to conclude that these same receptors may have an effect on the experience in other ways.

If, for whatever reason, these stomach receptors are not activated, then perhaps that changes the nature of the experience.

I have also been reading that some people lack the right enzymes to break down gelatin. I also read that gelatin can react with some substances inside a capsule. I am trying to find more specific, scientific articles about these issues. 

I wonder if Vitamin C helps me because the acidity of the vitamin C aids in the break-down of the gelatin.


----------



## indigoaura

Newtopic: Interestingly, I have had the opposite experience as you. I never had the "sick" side effect until I began using capsules instead of pills. But, the pills I took were from 2000-2005 and did not have any coating on them. They would often crumble, and had a noticeable sassafras smell.

I am honestly sort of wondering what would happen with an anal administration now. Never did that with X, only tried it once with 2CC. Was not a fan of the lingering burn...lol. However, I might be willing to give it another try just to add some more info to the conversation.


----------



## indigoaura

Is this relevant?



> Tolerance of the capsule shell toward fill composition
> Low molecular weight PEGs in the fill formulation (00) can diffuse into the gelatin shell and act as plasticizer which limits their use. Hard gelatin capsules are less compatible with PEG of molecular weight <4000 as they decreases the moisture from the capsule shell and make it brittle. They are generally compatible with PEG of molecular weight >4000.[4,5]



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5830853/


----------



## psy997

Re: serotonin receptors. If I remember correctly, there are more serotonin receptors in the gut than there are in the brain. Receptor activity in the stomach and gut affecting the experience is a definite possibility IMO.

Re: snorting. I've actually had amazing experiences the few times I've snorted MDMA. It's been good product every time, and I haven't noticed a pronounced difference in effects, especially degradation of empathy/ecstacy, between snorting and oral administration when I've done both with the same batch.

Re: Vitamin C, Vit C is actually an amazingly potent and powerful compound for the human body. It's probably the number one supplement I would recommend to anyone, for anything. I take 2-3g a day. It's an effective painkiller, anti-oxidant, anti-inflammatory agent, etc. etc. It could be directly having an effect on the gelatin or, could be diminishing negative effects simply because it's so good for the bodies recovery.


----------



## indigoaura

So, this is really strange to me.

72 hours since I took the X at this point, and NOW I have the afterglow.

Makes no sense to me at all. 

But, music is enhanced, and my sense of smell is enhanced, and my mood is elevated.

And the stomach problems are gone.

Only trigger that I can figure out is that I did take a multi-vitamin maybe 4 hours ago.


----------



## Deities

You simply need to find a plug who gets real cheap shit. Pink molly doesn't mean it's an RC, tan/white doesn't either.

As long as there isn't any methylene or anything like that, and is in small to large rock forms (unless shake), it's relatively safe. The stuff around here with a very slight greenish tan to it if you ever get any M like this is actually "supposedly" cut with Methlyene and Krokodil and shit.

If the E stamped in pills I promise you're getting around a 25%-65% bioavailability, either cut with caffeine and other drugs. I've noticed a lot of people do not do it like we do in our town and I think of other places in the USA versus EU.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Deities said:


> You simply need to find a plug who gets real cheap shit. Pink molly doesn't mean it's an RC, tan/white doesn't either.
> 
> As long as there isn't any methylene or anything like that, and is in small to large rock forms (unless shake), it's relatively safe. The stuff around here with a very slight greenish tan to it if you ever get any M like this is actually "supposedly" cut with Methlyene and Krokodil and shit.
> 
> If the E stamped in pills I promise you're getting around a 25%-65% bioavailability, either cut with caffeine and other drugs. I've noticed a lot of people do not do it like we do in our town and I think of other places in the USA versus EU.



kk so can posts like this just be deleted lol


----------



## Kaden_Nite

The thread is about figuring out what's wrong with MDMA today. In a roundabout way, I think that post gives us a bit of insight into what's wrong (maybe not on purpose).



Deities said:


> Real cheap shit.
> Small to large rocks = it's relatively safe.
> Greenish tan = Methlyene and Krokodil and shit.
> 25%-65% bioavailability.



Certainly gave me something to think about..


----------



## Glubrahnum

Deities said:


> Real cheap shit.
> Small to large rocks = it's relatively safe.
> Greenish tan = Methlyene and Krokodil and shit.
> 25%-65% bioavailability.





Hilopsilo said:


> kk so can posts like this just be deleted lol


Methylene is an unstable gas or a functional group that is not a part of any MDMA's chromophore.
It seems unlikely, that someone who makes such faux pas would be capable of providing reliable bioavailability numbers.


----------



## Xorkoth

It never fails to amaze me how much people listen to stupid urban legend and dealer BS shit.  There is so much drug mythology, and so many people take whatever is told to them by peers at face value.


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## indigoaura

My week has continued uneventfully, with no significant comedown or "blue Tuesday" issues.

Thinking about gelatin vs. cellulose and the potential impact on digestion reminds me of some old MDMA rumors from years ago. Does anyone else recall the "parachuting"   technique? I never tried it personally, but there were people who swore that if you crushed a pill up and put it in tissue paper and then swallowed it, then it would hit harder and faster. This seems to line up with the idea that the stomach and the receptors in the stomach may play an important role in come-up intensity.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> My week has continued uneventfully, with no significant comedown or "blue Tuesday" issues.
> 
> Thinking about gelatin vs. cellulose and the potential impact on digestion reminds me of some old MDMA rumors from years ago. Does anyone else recall the "parachuting"   technique? I never tried it personally, but there were people who swore that if you crushed a pill up and put it in tissue paper and then swallowed it, then it would hit harder and faster. This seems to line up with the idea that the stomach and the receptors in the stomach may play an important role in come-up intensity.



I mean, idk about gel cap types, but yeah crushing the crystals/pill to a fine powder will definitely cause it to come on faster (which usually means harder too). Not sure exactly why, but it gives all the particle mores surface area? I know chewing mushrooms to a fine paste before swallowing them makes it come on faster. I think thats just human biology, the stomach/digestive system with absorb stuff faster if its not in chunks. Just like how if you put a gram rock of salt in a glass of water it will dissolve more slowly than if you had crushed that rock of salt to a powder beforehand. 

Waaaaay back when the first couple times I rolled was with pressed pills, they were good, but sometimes they'd take a ridiculously long time to start working. I remember one time I ate an entire bag of rice cakes before dosing and it took like 2+ hours.

I always try to crush my MDMA to a fine powder before putting it in a gelcaps, but often I don't have time or just forget. FWIW, both recent experiences with the really good MDMA it was crushed to a fine powder. 

I think it would be a good idea from now on to just crush it to a fine powder and use the same gelcaps, just to eliminate more variable even if these are maybe completely frivolous in the grand scheme of the experience.


----------



## indigoaura

I will definitely be using cellulose capsules from now on. If I had thought of it as a variable previously, I would have already addressed it. Just never occurred to me that capsule type may be a factor in absorption rate. 

I also knew people who swore by dissolving the MDMA in orange juice and drinking it. I never tried that either.

Some drugs absorb better if dissolved/crushed, but others work better if they survive the acidity of the stomach and dissolve beyond the stomach. So, I was never sure what would be preferable for MDMA. 

Hilopsilo, when did you use pills? What year? The pills I used always hit very fast, within 15-30 minutes. I wonder if the pills you tried had a coating.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> I will definitely be using cellulose capsules from now on. If I had thought of it as a variable previously, I would have already addressed it. Just never occurred to me that capsule type may be a factor in absorption rate.
> 
> I also knew people who swore by dissolving the MDMA in orange juice and drinking it. I never tried that either.
> 
> Some drugs absorb better if dissolved/crushed, but others work better if they survive the acidity of the stomach and dissolve beyond the stomach. So, I was never sure what would be preferable for MDMA.
> 
> Hilopsilo, when did you use pills? What year? The pills I used always hit very fast, within 15-30 minutes. I wonder if the pills you tried had a coating.



A long time ago, I was in 15 in mid 2010 when I first tried MDMA, it was in the form of pressed pills only for these to completely disappear by 2011. After that, everything anyone I knew had access to was fake piperazine pressed pills or worse. I was unable to find proper MDMA until I became aware of a certain resource at the end of 2012 and it was just like I remembered it. Then, moved away to college and all of a sudden the stuff was flowing like water again (locally) except its ALWAYS powder/crystal MDMA. I haven't even seen a pressed pill since 2011. 

I think I began rolling right at the end of the availability of MDMA in the U.S. since the stuff disappeared so quickly thereafter. I didn't have test kits back then or anything, but just remembering how it made me feel it was definitely MDMA. Hell, those pills were the only time I have ever gotten eye wiggles from MDMA. I likely took higher doses than I thought, I remember taking two of these "purple aliens" and I basically got too high (pretty reckless thing for 15 y/o me to do lol).

Most of the time we actually chewed the pills up lol, figured it would make it kick in faster. I imagine when the pill is all packed together it takes a bit to dissolve in your stomach especially if its sitting on top of a shitload of starchy food. But other than that time, I think the stuff kicked in about as fast as it does now. For me, 20-30min after taking it I start to notice the come-up, then by 45min the come-up is in full motion, then by an hour i'm fully rolling. I get weird time distortions during the come-up, so its difficult to tell definitively and it varies, but generally speaking, say if I want to be completely done coming up, high as hell and ready to party by 10pm, I'll take my MDMA at 9pm sharp.  

While this stuff is interesting, I don't think theres any useful conclusions to draw from it since these times seem to be very individual and vary. My best friend is always 20-30min behind schedule even if we dose at the same time. My girlfriend and I always dose at the same time, sometimes she comes up first, sometimes I do. Kind of a toss-up.

The MagicDMA I had this past summer did take longer to hit me than usual and caught me off guard, but it hit my girlfriend at the normal time (she came up first that time, but I came up first on the MehDMA the first night so...). Sometimes if I'm really high on LSD, its difficult to tell if the come-up is starting or if I'm just feeling sensations of anticipation combined with the effects of LSD.


----------



## NewTopic

Hilopsilo said:


> The MagicDMA I had this past summer did take longer to hit me than usual and caught me off guard, but it hit my girlfriend at the normal time (she came up first that time, but I came up first on the MehDMA the first night so...). Sometimes if I'm really high on LSD, its difficult to tell if the come-up is starting or if I'm just feeling sensations of anticipation combined with the effects of LSD.



I started MDMA around the same time as you, the stuff back in 2010-2011 was just amazing, like you I didn't have a test kit but you just know by the effects that it 100% was MDMA. 

I no longer get those eye wobbles or anything like that unfortunately, but I remembered quite a few times even on low doses I'd trip like taking a high dose of MDMA which caused some to convert to MDA but on smaller doses. Is there is a possibility that the type of reactions/synths back then caused both MDMA and MDA to form ? 

This could explain why MDMA appeared stronger back then, as well as the eye wombles / strong come up ?


----------



## NewTopic

indigoaura said:


> Newtopic: Interestingly, I have had the opposite experience as you. I never had the "sick" side effect until I began using capsules instead of pills. But, the pills I took were from 2000-2005 and did not have any coating on them. They would often crumble, and had a noticeable sassafras smell.
> 
> I am honestly sort of wondering what would happen with an anal administration now. Never did that with X, only tried it once with 2CC. Was not a fan of the lingering burn...lol. However, I might be willing to give it another try just to add some more info to the conversation.



It's pretty confusing. 
I'm also on reddit and a post recently caught my eye experiencing the same symptoms but when they started it was fine (they have only been doing it a year), all his were well known pressed pills, much like myself. I for one used to use the gelatin caps, they worked fine on myself and even back when I started with the good MDMA it was fine. 

The theory might be an interesting one to investigate as to whether different absorption has some effect on the MDMA producing different effects. Quite possibly I have damaged something.. I think it's a bit of weird coincidence that this has occurred to a few people though. Maybe the hard pressed (or coated) pills don't break down quick enough and bypass the majority of serotonin receptors and when it's released into a certain point the body rejects it ? But if it broke down quickly, like in the stomach it would be a much larger effect, or possibly conversion to MDA or other ? 

Anal would be a rather interesting one as well, because well there isn't any serotonin receptors there (to my knowledge) but it would go into the blood and whether that would still activate the receptors to flood the system (body) of serotonin would have to have some validation.


----------



## Hilopsilo

NewTopic said:


> I started MDMA around the same time as you, the stuff back in 2010-2011 was just amazing, like you I didn't have a test kit but you just know by the effects that it 100% was MDMA.
> 
> I no longer get those eye wobbles or anything like that unfortunately, but I remembered quite a few times even on low doses I'd trip like taking a high dose of MDMA which caused some to convert to MDA but on smaller doses. Is there is a possibility that the type of reactions/synths back then caused both MDMA and MDA to form ?
> 
> This could explain why MDMA appeared stronger back then, as well as the eye wombles / strong come up ?



Well, first things first, I was 15 y/o, weighed less and probably had zero tolerance to drugs in general. Second, in a pressed pill you have no idea how much MDMA is in there, and the one time I got the eye wiggles was from taking TWO of the better pressed pills we ever came across. I probably only rolled around half a dozen times before the stuff disappeared. Since it became available to me again, I only ever take exactly 100mg. Two good pressed pills is likely much more than 100mg

I don't think that has anything to do with how it was made or anything, I think I was just a little kid who took more MDMA than I thought/needed to, simple as that.

I think it would be accurate to say that a pressed pill might digest slower than dumping a point of powder MDMA on your tongue and washing it down.


----------



## psy997

I'm not sure MDA vs MDMA explains much of the phenomena. Nor does being young and having zero tolerance. As I have progressed through the years, I have actually gotten more and more sensitive, and now can go much farther than before with the same amount of substance. Not only that, I am much more sensitive to the nuances of my experience. Though, that could actually explain the worsening of the effects, not being able to ride the metaphorical wave of just being high and allowing that to push me to super empathetic states, or something like that.

I came across good crystal last May and had a full blown MagicDMA roll from snorting just 60mg. Tolerance is definitely not an issue, I am pretty clear about that.


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## Biscuit

I have posted on this issue for 15 years but having direct knowledge of the forensic lab results of many many "ecstasy" pills from 1999 onwards, especially 1999 to 2005 and at least in Australia, I can assure you that whilst MDMA/MDA pills existed they were not common and were certainly not the reason for how amazing so many of the other 120-160mg MDMA-HCl only pills, "back in the day", were.


----------



## Hilopsilo

From a reddit post: 

_"Feel like maybe I should go over the chemistry behind the brown vs greyish/purple vs clear debate. Brown stuff tends to have leftover safrole, or partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy. In very basic terms, someone cooked it too hard in the early stages of synthesis from safrole, or alternatively did everything fine but neglected to do a wash before proceeding with the final steps._
_Greyish color is usually from leftover MDP2P, and this is a big reason why you tend to see a lot of grey stuff leaving the Netherlands/Germany. They've been known to use pure MDP2P for synthesis rather than go from safrole. I'm pretty sure MDP2P is inactive when ingested, but it's not going to hurt you either."
_
Any accuracy to this? My stuff that had leftover MDP2P was brown/amber, not grey/purple (although I have gotten ahold of a sample of the grey/purple stuff). Also it was to my understanding that safrole has to be made into MDP2P anyways, so that makes me think this person is talking out their ass. I'm mainly curious if the part about "_partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy"._


----------



## NewTopic

Hilopsilo said:


> From a reddit post:
> 
> _"Feel like maybe I should go over the chemistry behind the brown vs greyish/purple vs clear debate. Brown stuff tends to have leftover safrole, or partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy. In very basic terms, someone cooked it too hard in the early stages of synthesis from safrole, or alternatively did everything fine but neglected to do a wash before proceeding with the final steps._
> _Greyish color is usually from leftover MDP2P, and this is a big reason why you tend to see a lot of grey stuff leaving the Netherlands/Germany. They've been known to use pure MDP2P for synthesis rather than go from safrole. I'm pretty sure MDP2P is inactive when ingested, but it's not going to hurt you either."
> _
> Any accuracy to this? My stuff that had leftover MDP2P was brown/amber, not grey/purple (although I have gotten ahold of a sample of the grey/purple stuff). Also it was to my understanding that safrole has to be made into MDP2P anyways, so that makes me think this person is talking out their ass. I'm mainly curious if the part about "_partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy"._



Think what he means is that the safrole synth will convert to MDP2P but generally have safrole impurities left over from the synth. If it's not washed it will leave the color brown. As far as the MDP2P(PMK) to MDMA method, this would be the PMK Gly we see from China as I believe it comes in a white powder and not so much brown (not sure though) and I've been told the grey is left over mercury.

Last part is very interesting but no chemist.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Any accuracy to this? My stuff that had leftover MDP2P was brown/amber, not grey/purple


Your experience is consistent with my experience. MDP2P is a pale yellow to brown liquid and it would leave this color behind if unreacted.



Hilopsilo said:


> Also it was to my understanding that safrole has to be made into MDP2P anyways,


Yes, in all working synths that I have read about.



Hilopsilo said:


> I'm mainly curious if the part about "_partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy"._


_
Yes, that would be the result if the methylenedioxy ring is busted open.

I do not know about the psychoactive effects of methoxy-amphetamine nor MDP2P_


----------



## Glubrahnum

NewTopic said:


> I've been told the grey is left over mercury.


Mercury + methylating agents = death
*Read this*


----------



## ShroomySatori

That is messed up I've worked around mercury before it made me nervous to be anywhere near it. 

The problem is that people are dumb enough to make it illegal and not educate the public realistically, as an aside to this chemistry stuff. Another problem is the deforestation in Cambodia, funny how it's a love drug that causes rainforest destruction to collect sassafras oil. It is such a bad thing for the planet not even mentioning the clandestine labs. That deforestation is a horror show. 

And while it is illegal and severely cut with not only impurities but intentionally with research chemicals, people still use it. I will never understand that. A colour changing test is pretty much a joke to help you feel safer the people making this shit don't care about your health quite clearly. Seems like we have identified a drug that fries the fuck out of your brain a decade ago and is now only worse with RC cuts, and people still choose to use it. I guess you can't really see what it is doing to your brain when that toxic stuff gets in there but it makes me sick thinking about that shit eroding my brain however it does the damage, I don't care to know but you couldn't pay me to take the purest in the world. 

I will never understand that. When I was a stupid 20 year old yeah sure thinking I was invincible but anyone should know better as the information about the damage these days is a lot more prominent. It was becoming a fad around here after I started using it, this was way back. I saw the drugs getting cut more and more with research chemicals and lost interest in them all apart from legal ones like tea and weed. I'm already dead, waiting it out. Interested to see what will happen to the research chemical scene as it has ruined the world of recreational drugs in my opinion and will culminate as something critically important - I'm thinking full legalization, an excuse to enslave people even more and steal from them, environmental problems or a lot of people dying off randomly from some impurity or RC cut. 

I don't party though, I no longer exist in that realm so I guess that's why I feel this way. It's more realistic to concern yourself with the future of the human race and your mental and physical health for the rest of your life, than one night of possible fun.


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## Kaden_Nite

Hilopsilo said:


> I'm mainly curious if the part about "_partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy"._[/COLOR]



Doubt it. 3,4-dimethoxy-methamphetamine isn't really a stimulant, and even if it were present, which it probably is not, it wouldn't have any activity in trace amounts.

As for the colour being any kind of guide for which impurities are present or how the MDMA was manufactured, there are too many variables to say brown means this or tan means that.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Glubrahnum said:


> methyl mercury



You've mentioned this repeatedly. Any evidence of it showing up in MDMA?


----------



## Glubrahnum

Kaden_Nite said:


> You've mentioned this repeatedly. Any evidence of it showing up in MDMA?


I've detected it only once but not with MDMA.  The details are somewhere in this thread


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> Yes, the chemists would inadvertently synthesize non-racemic MDMA if they received a non racemic precursor such as t-BOC MDMA.
> 
> The same would be true if they received non-racemic PMK Glycidate and used a one-step method to synthesize MDMA out of it, without going through the naked PMK step. Such one-step method has not been documented but it was alleged to exist on multiple occasions.
> 
> The reason for this is that naked PMK is always racemic (it cannot be chiral), so going through it renders the end product racemic, too.
> The classical synth with using Safrole as the primary precursor goes through the naked PMK step, so the end product is racemic.
> 
> 
> That is possible when Safrole is converted to MDP2Pol before being converted to MDP2P (PMK) - a common technique.
> MDP2Pol can decay to MDP1P upon oxidation in elevated temperatures and MDP1P reductively aminates to e.g. N,β-Me-MDPEA which is a positional isomer of MDMA and very hard to differentiate from the real McCoy.
> 
> Some chemists claim that MDP2P degrades to MDP1P when stored for a long time, resulting in the same skewed end product.
> The same is claimed for the Glycidates, although it was never confirmed.
> 
> The takeaway from this is that with the old Safrole synths nobody was keeping the MDP2Pol or MDMP2P around for a long time before it was converted to MDMA.
> The MDP2P (PMK) was used *as soon as* it was derived from Safrole.



If this were the case, wouldn't MDP1P be detected in the same way MDP2P is often detected?

Also, interesting: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6679

On another note,  FWIW was rummaging through my stash and I decided to dump all of the MehDMA left into a single bag so I could get a better smell. And it has that "sassy smell", but it also smells sort of salty or almost fishy. Idk if that means anything at all lol

From some searches: 

"if it smells like fish then that's unreacted methylamine and i would steer VERY clear of it, for it to have methylamine smell still then it probably has trace Hg in it too if it was reduced via Al/Hg."

"The fishy smell is most likely from left over methylamine from the synthesis."


----------



## Dany657

Is there a reagent out there that functions similar or like Marquis for identifying acrylamide and or mercury? or at least in a way simple enough that someone without much chemistry knowledge would be able to tell if either of these two poisons are present?


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> If this were the case, wouldn't MDP1P be detected in the same way MDP2P is often detected?


Yes if it was not subsequently methylated/aminated.



Hilopsilo said:


> Also, interesting: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6679


N-Methyl-1-phenylpropan-1-amine is unusual in MDMA because it does not have the Methylenedioxy bridge,
I would expect it in a failed Methamphetamine synth.








Hilopsilo said:


> "if it smells like fish then that's unreacted methylamine and i would steer VERY clear of it, for it to have methylamine smell still then it probably has trace Hg in it too if it was reduced via Al/Hg."


Yes, Methylamine has a fishy odor and it is a methylating / aminating agent.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Dany657 said:


> Is there a reagent out there that functions similar or like Marquis for identifying acrylamide and or mercury? or at least in a way simple enough that someone without much chemistry knowledge would be able to tell if either of these two poisons are present?


I do not know of one for Acrylamide.
There are such reagents for Mercury but I doubt they would react to trace amounts that can still do a lot of damage.


----------



## Hilopsilo

So I think someone mentioned this a couple pages ago, but I really do wonder if whether the MDMA is crushed to a fine powder or not makes a difference. The one unaccounted for variable in my experience, was that the MagicDMA was crushed to a fine powder for everyone that took it, the crappy stuff was in a chunks. For myself, 100mg as the constant dosage of all my rolls, the times I remember the MDMA being on that nirvana level experience it was definitely crushed to a fine powder. Would leaving it in chunks effect how its digested as opposed to a perfectly fine powder that would digest evenly?

I know there is some relation between the serotonin system and the gut, and I was reading something about how salt type effects how its digested and many people were saying different salt types produce different effects and different strength of effects. If the rate of digestion is effected by salt type, then maybe its also effects by how finely ground the MDMA is. Maybe if its in chunks, its digesting slowly/improperly and creating this more gradual and munted high, leaving you in a between place. In fact, just from searching theres plenty of stuff saying that yes, you should crush it to a fine powder as it will have more surface area. 
_
"Its metabolised in a different area of the body then the HCl is. It makes its way deaper into the digestive system before it is neutralized and released. This is the reasoning behind why the Citrate is suppose to be more potent." 

"given that the stomach only contains around 5% HCl and the PKA of Citric acid is enough that under those conditions stomach acid will do very little to convert this to the hydrogen chloride salt. This is where the magic lays... it is strong enough to tolerate your digestive system and instead it starts to metabolize it in the small intestines instead..."

_Could this also be applied to finely ground versus chunks of HCL? HCL chunks make it further down the digestive track? This would totally make sense with what I experienced with the MehDMA (lots of chunks) because the come-up was waaaaaayyy long and never really "popped off", stuck in this intensely anxious come-up state that just skidded along and never really rolled in the right way (i also got a stomach ache). Whereas the MagicDMA (crushed to a fine powder), it was like I felt nothing, and then in all of 20 minutes I went from 0 to 100 (and my stomach gurgled like CRAZY in the most pleasurable way right at lift off) and it caught me off guard.

this also sort of makes sense considering in the pressed pill days, the MDMA had been crushed to a powder before pressing into a pill, there weren't actual chunks of MDMA in the pressed pills. When crystal MDMA started taking over, "molly", is when a lot of people felt MDMA changed.

On another note, friend of mine acquired two new MDMA samples from different batches that have been submitted to that same lack-luster NMR service. One he had tried himself and said he felt was quite good and close to the MagicDMA, its a very light pink crystal, I've never seen MDMA like this before. The other sample is hilarious (he got it for free for his connection), its literally black and dripping with precursor, you can see droplets in the bag and its just glistening with sticky goo. And MAN does it smell strongly, its certainly MDMA, tests just fine, I don't think I'd take it but interesting nonetheless.


----------



## NewTopic

Hilopsilo said:


> _
> "Its metabolised in a different area of the body then the HCl is. It makes its way deaper into the digestive system before it is neutralized and released. This is the reasoning behind why the Citrate is suppose to be more potent."
> 
> "given that the stomach only contains around 5% HCl and the PKA of Citric acid is enough that under those conditions stomach acid will do very little to convert this to the hydrogen chloride salt. This is where the magic lays... it is strong enough to tolerate your digestive system and instead it starts to metabolize it in the small intestines instead..."
> 
> _Could this also be applied to finely ground versus chunks of HCL? HCL chunks make it further down the digestive track? This would totally make sense with what I experienced with the MehDMA (lots of chunks) because the come-up was waaaaaayyy long and never really "popped off", stuck in this intensely anxious come-up state that just skidded along and never really rolled in the right way (i also got a stomach ache). Whereas the MagicDMA (crushed to a fine powder), it was like I felt nothing, and then in all of 20 minutes I went from 0 to 100 (and my stomach gurgled like CRAZY in the most pleasurable way right at lift off) and it caught me off guard.
> 
> this also sort of makes sense considering in the pressed pill days, the MDMA had been crushed to a powder before pressing into a pill, there weren't actual chunks of MDMA in the pressed pills. When crystal MDMA started taking over, "molly", is when a lot of people felt MDMA changed.




That's not a bad possibility really. 
I'll be honest here I used to always take MDMA in caps, for about 7 years until last year when I changed to pills because I thought it hit me harder. 

Now what your saying about the acid in the stomach, you could be onto something there and i'll have to read into that a bit more. 
What's the citric thing your talking about ? Sorry might have missed this. 

I used to think the same, with the crushed vs rocks. 
I would always assume that the powder would dissolve quicker and faster. 

Since last year with the pills I've been getting sick after MDMA, still not sure what's going on there but the theory behind the hard press pills will make it further into the digestive system, also possible coating on them as well. But what your saying is that, if the acid in the stomach was increased to dissolve the MDMA quickly, when it reached the blood stream it would hit at once, rather then a slow release ? 

What about the conversion to MDA ? 
Would it be possible that the MDMA is now getting more converted to MDA causing a lack of 'magic' and would taking something stop this converting ? 
?


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> So I think someone mentioned this a couple pages ago, but I really do wonder if whether the MDMA is crushed to a fine powder or not makes a difference


It will make a difference in the serum absorption rate, but not much.

Dissolve it in a glass of an Orange juice and give it to a Guinea pig to see if you can even perceive any difference.


----------



## psy997

Crystal vs crushed is not going to make a difference. I've done both with the same batch multiple times. Gel caps make more of a difference than that.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> It will make a difference in the serum absorption rate, but not much.
> 
> Dissolve it in a glass of an Orange juice and give it to a Guinea pig to see if you can even perceive any difference.





psy997 said:


> Crystal vs crushed is not going to make a difference. I've done both with the same batch multiple times. Gel caps make more of a difference than that.



Fair enough, cross that one out, trying to think outside (or inside) the box here. Can cross out different gel cap types too then since the MehDMA and MagicDMA were in the exact same gelcaps lol. 

Also, Glub, was talking to someone who also knows their stuff about MDMA/chemistry/drugs and talked about some things that you and others have brought, he had a few rebuttals that I think are valid:

- The substances that you mentioned that can be mistaken for MDMA using underivatised GC/MS is a bit moot since underiviatised is "pretty much a thing of the past" and "modern analysis techniques will easily detect a positional isomer"
- As for a contaminant to be leftover from synthesis messing with the high, while not impossible; "generally speaking, it would be unusual for a synthetic byproduct to appear and have orders-of-magnitude different potency to the main product because generally speaking they are likely to have similar structures"

I can't say anything about the first one as I simply don't know anything about all that, but the second point honestly makes a lot of sense, why would some byproduct of MDMA synthesis, something closely related to it, be active at some incredibly low dose?


----------



## psy997

MehDMA and MagicDMA being in the same gel caps doesn't necessarily rule out gelatin vs whatever the other type is, actually. We have a conflicting report from indigo that the same batch in different types produced different effects, possibly (he couldn't quite remember). So that one's still on the table. It's, to me, obviously not a main culprit. And, it could be a factor in the mehness of already mehDMA.

RE: small amounts of byproducts causing major effects, it's totally possible. Our systems are very sensitive. Weirder things have happened. It would be a major oversight, in my opinion, to rule that out.


----------



## G_Chem

Haven't been through in awhile..

I find it interesting that clear scentless MDMA is so rare but I believe it.  Since I've moved I still can find good mdma easily but it's never the clear scentless shards from back home.

Like lately a lot of my "back home" area has had shards that are so well defined they look like teeth.  Imagine a crystal that has almost like a tooth root that grows larger up to this rhomboidal crystal top.  I had one I'd take a picture of but I crushed it in my pocket sadly :/

Since 2011 or so, clear shard mdma has been available to me in that area.  I'd say since 2011 or so I've only bought mdma that wasn't clear/lightly cloudy a handful of times.  I say this because I find it curious how a certain area, not even well known, could have such high quality product available.

Some things to note about the area that could explain the prevalence of high purity mdma.  It has some highly regarded universities and has always had great local product even during the mdma recession of 2009.  I believe there's lots of highly intelligent chemists that live in that area, and in fact some well known underground chemists have come from here.

I like how, Kaden I think, put it.  It's like saying "all socks today are bad."  It's this huge generalization for essentially the entire world when product can vary so easily one batch to the next.  We do have to remember there's always been "smacky" mdma, but at the same time I'd argue that over the past few years those complaints of sedating mdma has been on the rise.

@Indigo- I've had experiences like that before that just don't make sense.  It's the problem with this discussion, people want to say "good mdma" will never let you down but it can..

I may have told this story in here already but incase I haven't.  I once had an experience somewhat like yours off very good mdma I had become familiar with.  This same mdma was nothing but pleasant many times before:

On this particular night I was rather stressed, had just driven 4hrs to get where I was to be partying that night.  I felt off like I had to take a shit but couldn't and decided to eat a bit before dosing to ease my stomach.  All I took was 130mg.  Once it hit I started vomiting and couldn't stop, zero euphoria and I was tripping like I just dosed 150mg pure MDA.

I've had this type of experience 3 times total over my 14yrs rolling, all 3 on good tested mdma.  Each time involved anxiety and some bullshit going on in my life.  MDMA can help escape reality once in awhile but it's not great at it.  It's fairly dependent on set/setting in my opinion.


I think for now I'm going to just continue to hang and wait to see any more developments.  I did dig hard looking for bioassay reports for specific synthesis routes to mdma, and found some but not enough to make any conclusions.

Heres a general rundown of a few methods..

Leuckart reaction- Likely the reason behind the high potency mdma of the early to mid 90's.  Seems to create a longer lasting more stimulating experience for both mdma and MDA, as well as have a unusual increase in potency.  Likely due to DMMDA and DMMDMA present as an impurity.

Al/Hg- Clean and pure mdma often from this method, zero complaints and likely commonly used from late 1990's to late 2000's.

Bromosafrole- Known to be impure and low yielding.  I found one post from the Hive stating the impurities produced in this reaction can cause highly unpleasant symptoms, this method has never been the "go-to" method for producers however so no worries from a consumer standpoint.


I think to make progress on this issue people should start using reagents more and more.  It's one of the few tools the layperson has at their disposal so to find patterns and correlations could better help us.

For instance if the good mdma has a slight variation to a few different reagents compared to the bad stuff we could then have a simple test people can use at home.  Lab analysis is great but in certain countries it's not easy for people to get that done easily.

Right now here is the two reagent tricks I've got for you.  The first is well known; it seems mdma with even minute amounts of residual safrole will turn purple to black on Marquis whereas MDMA with no safrole goes straight to black.  (I've personally fekt a difference between these two types of MDMA, but wouldn't consider either better or worse.  I'd bet though I'd be talking differently if the purity wasn't great round here.)

The second trick was one I've discovered.  I noticed over the years that very high purity product will go a beautiful turquoise color on the Mecke before going dark blue/black.  For high purity MDMA the reaction with the Mecke actually goes slower and you see that turquoise for a second or two before it vanishes.  Whereas MDMA with a lower purity (often amber/brown colored) will react more violently and go a green/dark green real fast to dark blue/black.

This second trick I've found useful a few times when purchasing something that was more broken down and devoid of crystal structure.

It's these little tips that we need to dive deeper in to, if we can find good correlations that could be our answer.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

I totally feel what you mean about set & setting G_Chem, and thats one of the reasons I think I generally roll harder the second night i take it at a festival; I'm all broken in and comfortable in my environment, I faced all my fear/life issues that have been on my mind already, i can just let go and embrace it more easily. That first night with the MehDMa I was very stressed out after just arriving (bunch of drama upon arriving, got it sorted, but still felt on edge), if it wasn't for every single other person to feel the same way about the stuff, I would have chalked the whole thing up to that (and my jaw dropping to the floor on that last night with the good stuff, "this is on an entirely different level" on repeat in my head the whole night). 

I think leftover crap from the synth is the best theory currently, it satisfies both sides of the argument and relies on the fact that different synthesis routes (as you pointed out earlier G_Chem) do produce different sets of byproducts. I think we'd all do well to at least acetone wash our MDMA to remove leftover crap. I'm going to try this on the MehDMA I have left and see if it makes it any better. 

Also, went out the other night and probably ~dozen people tried the pink stuff my friend C recently acquired (smells slightly sassy, not oily, crystal grinds into a fine powder with a pinkish hue). Everyone exhibited good effects, full mydriasis and one of them who was new to MDMA (only took ~75mg) called a friend to tell them how good they felt the next day, we told them thats called the afterglow. That same person was also jaw clenching pretty hard that night, but it seems that regardless of the MDMA some people have the jaw thing and others don't. I've NEVER had the jaw thing ever, even when others get it from the same batch.

Also, I believe we've peaked the interest of the drug testing services here, keep bringing them new samples and they're intrigued at how many different forms the drug takes on, from scentless white crystal to a smelly oily black mess. Hopefully they'll start providing us with more info on the samples as they can clearly see its not all the same in appearance, smell or texture.


----------



## Dresden

The grass was greener.
The light was brighter.
The taste was sweeter.
Forever and ever.

-"Division Bell," Pink Floyd.

Welcome to the New Age.
Welcome to the New Age.

--"Radioactive" by Imagine Dragons.


----------



## indigoaura

> We have a conflicting report from indigo that the same batch in different types produced different effects, possibly (he couldn't quite remember).



Sorry if I was not clear.

I have reviewed my notes and supplies.

The first time I took the DW MDMA, I personally capped it in my supply of cellulose capsules. I was paying close attention to the dose and had emptied it out of the capsules it came in and put it in new capsules. My capsules are the capsules sold as "vegetarian." This experience was positive, and I did not get sick.

The second time I took the DW MDMA, I kept it in the capsules it was shipped in. I contacted the supplier, and it was confirmed that those capsules were gelatin. This experience was limited, and I became physically sick on the comedown.

Based on my research, there are some chemicals that can cross react with gelatin capsules. I am wondering if some of the byproducts may be interacting with the capsules. 

Here is that link: 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5830853/

That article commented, "Low molecular weight PEGs in the fill formulation can diffuse into the gelatin shell and act as plasticizer which limits their use."

I don't know if that is significant to this conversation or not. If gelatin capsules can be "plasticized" by the wrong contents, then maybe the release of the MDMA is SO delayed that only a fraction is actually absorbed.

From now on, I will only be using cellulose capsules.


----------



## G_Chem

@Dresden- Nostalgia's "Radioactive" remix was like the theme song of my 2013 summer, good shit..

@Hilo- I agree we're likely looking at synthesis byproducts to get these answers.  I've noticed that over the past year testing services have been reporting synthesis byproducts more and more, and I don't think this is because there's more being found but they are beginning to realize that they may affect the experience.

For example one of the latest MDA analysis on EData has 8x! as much precursor as it does actual MDA.  It's becoming obvious that these chemists push the product no matter how it turns out but our testing services are just now picking up on this and adding that bit of info to their final analysis.

I've also noticed a few new odd byproducts/precursors being found which is indicative of some new methods.  Definitely something I'll keep an eye on.

And Hilo I'd be very interested to hear how your acetone wash goes.  If you can find 99% isopropyl too you could even further purify it via recrystallization.  I'm thinking of trying this on some impure MDA I bought as well.

@Indigo- I'm still thinking your second experience could have been set/setting related but hard to know.  Slower absorption of MDMA does change the pharmacokinetics, sometimes drastically.. Often it'll feel more MDA like.  I'm gonna look back on that experience though and read it over again.



And finally... I tried doing some reagent testing on all the samples I have at my disposal currently.  I got like 10 samples in before realizing my reagents aren't fresh enough to make the best comparisons so I'll wait but I did discover one new testing trick that I thought was interesting..

So obviously the best way to test for MDA is via Robadope (a pink/red to indicate MDA/primary amines, no reaction for MDMA/secondary amines) or Simons (no reaction for MDA/primary amines and a royal blue for MDMA/secondary amines) but if you only have the Simons like most people (including myself) it can be hard to determine you have MDA if it's an MDMA/MDA mixed sample.

I found that the Mecke does vary enough on MDA to be useful.  With MDMA the Mecke will go turquoise/green to dark blue/black.  But with MDA there will be little to no green it will go straight to a dark blue/purple/black color that is similar yet different.  Give the puddle a few minutes though and with MDA there will be a reddish outer edge that won't show up with MDMA.  It's this reddish coloration a few minutes after initially dropping the reagent that can clearly differentiate MDA from MDMA.

This new technique worked well with MDA samples that also contained some MDMA.  (I had one sample that I knew wholeheartedly was at least mostly MDA but Simons went blue, this technique along with a slightly different Mandelin reaction that matched other known pure MDA samples indicated to me I was right.)

Also I believe I saw a slightly browner Marquis puddle to the samples I had which seemed to contain safrole which seems to agree with others assessments.  (I've seen pure  safrole to test as a purple/brown on Marquis.).

Once I get new reagents I'll go through the collection (most single pills/capsules I've hung on to, probably around 20 dif samples) and document all the color reactions to see if I can find any other clues.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

Got NMR results back for 4 new MDMA samples, including the one that was literally black and dripping in precursor. My friend who submitted them is going to copy paste me the email results as soon as he gets a chance. The black stuff came out as like ~55%, but no other info on the other stuff in it. The person that works at the organization who relays the samples for us has decided to try and figure out why the NMR doesn't give more info, since he is now intrigued by all this.

That black stuff is definitely concerning as it comes out as good MDMA using a test kits, but its clearly not.


----------



## G_Chem

Great job man!

And the interesting thing is that often people describe black nasty impure MDMA/MDA to be just as potent or more potent than their pure counterparts.

Excited to see the results!  It's also good to know you've piqued the interest of one of the lab techs that'll help us.

So the black MDMA, was it oily? Any crystals or what consistency? Just curious.  My guess is that the chemist had leftover precursor oil and either overgassed during salting or torched his product somewhere along the line.  Either way it's disgusting people sell it like that but then again there's a reason why...

If you notice MDMA is a drug that gets sold with more synthesis byproducts than most other illicit drugs on the market.  Based on my reading and anecdotal experience it seems that MDMA is still fairly effective when impure depending on the impurities, but I also believe it misses that magic that pure MDMA can take you to.

Back in like 2011-2012 I was preaching about how most impurities took away from that "magic" feel but no one believed me then.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> Great job man!
> 
> And the interesting thing is that often people describe black nasty impure MDMA/MDA to be just as potent or more potent than their pure counterparts.
> 
> Excited to see the results!  It's also good to know you've piqued the interest of one of the lab techs that'll help us.
> 
> So the black MDMA, was it oily? Any crystals or what consistency? Just curious.  My guess is that the chemist had leftover precursor oil and either overgassed during salting or torched his product somewhere along the line.  Either way it's disgusting people sell it like that but then again there's a reason why...
> 
> If you notice MDMA is a drug that gets sold with more synthesis byproducts than most other illicit drugs on the market.  Based on my reading and anecdotal experience it seems that MDMA is still fairly effective when impure depending on the impurities, but I also believe it misses that magic that pure MDMA can take you to.
> 
> Back in like 2011-2012 I was preaching about how most impurities took away from that "magic" feel but no one believed me then.
> 
> -GC



It's this single oily, wet, black chunk. It leaves droplets on the inside of baggy. I didn't touch it, but it just looks like your average recrystallized chunk of MDMA but wet and black.


----------



## Ashley

Dresden said:


> PMK-glycidate is made from safrole.





NewTopic said:


> I think PMK-Glycidate is fully synthetic



I know this was a few pages back, but I just wanted to point out that PMK/MDP2P glycidate can be made from safrole - but it isn't made _exclusively_ from safrole. It can also be readily prepared from piperonal.

A.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Good point.

Honestly this brings up something I've been thinking about.  I know people hold safrole as the holy grail and shit on piperonal but piperonal has been used long before 2010 and based on Glubras anecdotes it seems good product can be had from piperonal.

I think this problem is solely a PMK glycidate problem, it could be made from safrole or piperonal..

It all boils down to the fact PMK glycidate is much easier to smuggle compared to drums of oil that have a unique scent.

-GC


----------



## Dany657

All of the md I've taken was Dutch sourced and other than the last role that caused my LTC(which I still think was dosage related) was the amazing, pupil dilation, everyone's my friend md where you just know it's the real deal. One roll I had(that again, was amazing!)where I kept it at 500mg throughout the night gave me horrid brain zaps and restless legs for three days. My point is, I find interesting that some people theorize that when it's manufactured with PMK glycidate, the product is more or less inferior when from my personal experience, this is certainly not the case.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Just curious what your average dosages were during that time?


Also Glubra, when you analyzed those two samples containing MDMA tartrate was it possible to tell if it was MDMA bitartrate at all?

If anyone remembers Shunenja he was quite the outspoken critic of this thread and made the argument that it could possibly be MDMA bitartrate.

If this were the case then it'd make sense why the dosages have jumped so high in recent years.

-GC


----------



## Dany657

@G_Chem I rolled somewhere between 10-20 times over the course of three months. Each time was at least 250mg to start and likely ending up being 750-1000mg by the end of the night. I did this several times and other than the one time with the zaps and restless legs, and another where I accidentally mixed with 5-htp, my comedowns were only mild since I always used 5-htp the following day but even still, I never recall waking up feeling terrible. My LTC causing dose was about 1.75 grams over the course of five hours, such a terrible decision that has come with horrible at the time unforeseen consequences.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Friend sent me the NMR results for 4 new samples he submitted. Still only reporting some info, the person who works at the organization is trying to pry more information out of the NMR lab for us, he's also not sure why they aren't sending more.

1.) (silver/grey)
MDMA HCL 66%
Mannitol 12% (_"__Mannitol is a type of sugar alcohol which is also used as a medication. As a sugar, it is often used as a sweetener in diabetic food, as it is poorly absorbed from the intestines. As a medication, it is used to decrease pressure in the eyes, as in glaucoma, and to lower increased intracranial pressure."_) strange huh?

2.) purple
MDMA HCL 72%

3.) pink
MDMA HCL 79%

4.) the black, wet sample
MDMA HCL 53% 

Again, none of these 4 samples reach close to the 91% MagicDMA. Especially interested in what is leftover in sample 4, assuming its a bunch of precursor, that information could shed light on how it was made.


----------



## G_Chem

@Dany- While your effects sound in line with what should be expected from good MDMA, the dosages do not.

I often hear about the typical doses taken in certain parts of Europe and can't believe my ears.  Many people blame it on cultural differences but people in the US like get to get royally fucked all the same.

I've been taking MDMA for ~14yrs now and I've never taken more than 250mg in a night let alone as a starting dose.  I once accidentally dropped 180mg (forgot to split off my booster) and was so blown away in the beginning it was uncomfortable, projectile vomited like 10ft then began chatting random shit for the rest of the night.

It's my belief the discrepancy in dosages between certain areas of the world has to do with purity/synthesis over culture.

@Hilo- Great job posting those man.  So question, can someone out of country send these people samples via post for testing or is that too sketch?  They could really help us out, even just with percentages and basic cuts.

Mannitol is a fairly common ingredient in ecstasy tablets used as a binder.  Not overly surprising to find it, my guess is some producer out there who also makes ecstasy used it as a non-active cut for their "loose product" aka non pressed crystal/powder.

Any anecdotes for any of those batches in terms of effects? I find it interesting each batch was unique colors like that.  I'm most curious of the pink batch, as pink can be an indicator of a certain synthesis route at times.

-GC


----------



## Dany657

@G_Chem I realize that the dosages sound insane for what would be good mdma. The 250mg would always be easily enough to start with all the amazing effects I mentioned true of real E. My outrageous doses had to do with me attempting to use the drug as a mental escape. I've always been one to dose on the heavier side of everything in an attempt to feel more, this proved ineffective with the molly but since the effects remained amazing and very close to what they were originally, I kept going up. For this reason I don't feel the product was inferior.

You mentioned how you're very sensitive to the effects of magnesium l-threonate, it sounds like that's also true with md which could explain your vomiting reaction to 180mg. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think this could be a possibility.


----------



## psy997

180mg of good MDMA would have me vomiting as well.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Its strange, I had never vomited from MDMA before, but about a year and a half ago I took 100mg of MDMA and vomited from it, it was quite good MDMA. About ~15 minutes after I vomited, we were in the crowd just dancing, and then my girlfriend also had to go vomit (from the same dose and has also never vomited from it before).

High doses/very good MDMA seems to correlate with vomiting. I spoke with the medical team at the festival about it and they said that throwing up from MDMA usually means that. 

I also once knew this guy who was incredibly irresponsible with drugs, probably the most irresponsible of anyone I've ever known, he would take 500+ mg at once, and then puke his brains out 30 minutes later like it was nothing.


----------



## indigoaura

I used to always vomit on the comeup, or dry heave. This would usually happen about 15 minutes after dosing, during that "rocket launch" phase during the come-up. Then, I would be fine and would not vomit or feel sick again. Interestingly, I never vomit on the comeup with the sleepy stuff.

I'm in a sort of rut with my experimenting right now, because I have not found any other products to sample that look worth my time. The color/quality of most of the stuff I have browsed looks horrible.


----------



## NewTopic

Hi guys, 

I have somewhat of a story and a goodbye. 

Two weeks ago, I consumed some MDMA in pills some being golden thunderdomes & crystal and to my absolute surprise (don't know whether it's the NAC & vitamin c I've been taking as an experiment to see if it potent the MDMA in the weeks leading up) but everyone else that consumed a golden thunderdome (240mg) felt this as well and we are experienced in taking 200-250mg upfront each time. 

15-20 minute come up and absolutely floored, I could not believe how quick it took and everyone was on the floor infront of the aircon completely out of it and to be honest I felt that really intense MDMA feeling again, I was happier then normal MDMA for sure and it lasted a long time. 

But unfortunately, not sure what happened whether it was the crystal or the pills but over the night consuming 500mg half being crystal which I have done before plenty of times.. the sickness I normally felt after MDMA got worse, alot worse. 

The next day I actually felt fine, little nausea but didn't vomit or anything to my surprise, the day after I was very dizzy, depressed, random out bursts of crying, confusion and couldn't stand up or eat anything. Over the next 7 days I experienced still being dizzy / lightheaded and I actually layed down because when I sat up or walked around my head felt a strange pressure which also went down my upper neck. 

I had an ambulance called because at a random time my heart rate went through the roof and I felt like I was going to pass out. 
However all tests including ecg , bloods, xray and blood pressure came back as normal. 

I had been too emergency twice on my own in the following days but still nothing they could tell me about feeling the way I did, I told them about the MDMA as well but they seemed to think nothing of it. But this did really made me realize how much I value this life and how something so little could cause so much damage .. I honestly thought I was going to die. 

So i'm giving it up, I can no longer do this anymore with the MDMA currently or how I feel. Those thunderdome pills reminded me of the original MDMA, I think that good stuff is out there being made but majority isn't what it used too be for one reason or another.  

A few days later it randomly disappeared and I could go back to work but it's a reminder that things can go wrong without warning. 
Maybe my body has just had enough, maybe it's the MDMA, maybe it's something else but it certainly isn't like taking 100mg back then and rolling for hours on end with little comedown if any at all. 

How times have changed, goodbye MDMA.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> 1.) (silver/grey)
> MDMA HCL 66%
> Mannitol 12%
> 
> 2.) purple
> MDMA HCL 72%
> 
> 3.) pink
> MDMA HCL 79%
> 
> 4.) the black, wet sample
> MDMA HCL 53%


It would be prudent to ask them whether they mean 3,4-MDMA HCl   or  2,3-MDMA HCl
A question about the chirality would not hurt either.

The remainders beg many questions


----------



## Glubrahnum

NewTopic said:


> How times have changed, goodbye MDMA.


See, sociotechnically the Meh MDMA works very well !


----------



## indigoaura

What have any of you heard about the methods currently being used in central Europe? Is good product being produced there or is it similar to what is coming out of the Netherlands?


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> What have any of you heard about the methods currently being used in central Europe? Is good product being produced there or is it similar to what is coming out of the Netherlands?


t-BOC-MDMA is the newest popular precursor.


----------



## G_Chem

@Dany- Well that 180mg dose was a long time ago, I've only started using magnesium l-threonate the past year and a half or so.

You do seem like a really intelligent guy and I wasn't there so I gotta believe you.

Just feel there is a huge discrepancy between average doses in certain areas compared to others.  Typical average dose has always been 100-150mg until 2010 and beyond, 180mg dose of MDMA I typically come across would have most people puking on the comeup.  I'm just under the impression there is differences beyond societal pressures.

@Indigo/Glubra- I'm still of the belief that PMK-glycidate is still the main precursor being used but indeed some t-BOC-MDMA has been found as of lately.

After reading that mixmag article where dude went undercover (someone posted it here many pages before) it seems possible t-BOC-MDMA could be the new precursor on the block as it could be made into MDMA via one step but I still put my $ on PMK glycidate.

The reason being too, in that article the guy he's interviewing doesn't describe details but does say it's a one pot that is intricate and beautifully thought out.  This would also imply PMK-glycidate over t-BOC..


So I've been reading through the Hive archives and it's been interesting to read from the chemists point of view how batches can vary.  Even in the late 90's/early 2000's we've been dealing with this.

I've tried a few times now to summarize what I've learned but it's too hard..  On top of that many of those methods aren't even used much large scale these days.

What I will say is that chemistry is FAR from a perfect science and there are road bumps that have gotten in the way of these clandestine researchers.

If anyone ever has questions on older synthesis methods and how they compare to each other just ask.

-GC


----------



## Dany657

@G_Chem Gotcha this is very interesting how several people feel nausea with quality md at doses way below what I used. I only recall two rolls both dosed on the much higher side that gave me any nausea and the spells lasted no more than 15 minutes at most. I'd say you're definitely onto something with dosage discrepancy throughout different areas. Perhaps your md and the others on here agreeing with what you said about vomiting around 180mg, was made with safrole where this is a known side effect & maybe I experienced practically none because mine was most likely from PMK-glycidate.

 By the way, as you know I wrote a detailed post a few months back on my theory regarding mercury being the cause of an LTC, you told me you thought it was acrylamide. After more research on the subject and finding out that some of my other physical symptoms weren't related to a slight spinal misalignment that started strangely around the same time as the following symptoms which wasn't until about 9 months into the LTC: tingling fingers and feet, random aches and soreness that comes and goes, and an itchy prickly sensation throughout my body the first few minutes after starting my cardio, I've come to agree with you. Something else that I feel further validates this theory: I had received a brain mri early last year for unexplainable headaches I had for awhile, I had rolled several times in the past two months.. in fact I rolled the night before getting the mri, it came back completely normal. Fast forward to early this year when my neurologist was attempting to find an explanation as to why my nervous system was acting up, he ordered a brain mri. I knew how the one the previous year found nothing but said what the hell, why not. Results come back with a few extremely tiny white spots in a few frames. They were in the middle of the brain and slightly around it, the poison acrylamide has been shown to cause midbrain lesions.

Thanks man! & I'll further describe my rolls so that anyone reading can know with as much certainty as possible that this was true md. Electronic music sounded deeper than anything imaginable in an amazing way while causing pupil dilation, jaw clenching, desire to tell everyone that you love them, completely numb to negativity and only able to feel positive emotions overwhelmingly, touch and vision were both enhanced but not in a hallucinatory way. I'd say this is enough to definitely conclude this was the real md we all love.


----------



## Dresden

I'm not trying to sound flippant, but MDMA is so 1988.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> @Indigo/Glubra- I'm still of the belief that PMK-glycidate is still the main precursor being used but indeed some t-BOC-MDMA has been found as of lately.


I wrote t-BOC was the newest popular one - not the main one.



Dresden said:


> I'm not trying to sound flippant, but MDMA is so 1988.


I wish it was so.

On the other hand if you are looking for a contemporary 2018 drug, there is always Carfentanil...but I do not recommend it.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> I used to always vomit on the comeup, or dry heave. This would usually happen about 15 minutes after dosing, during that "rocket launch" phase during the come-up. Then, I would be fine and would not vomit or feel sick again. Interestingly, I never vomit on the comeup with the sleepy stuff.



I can honestly say I've only felt nausea from MDMA once in my life. 

I went to visit some friends in Manchester and necked a pill when I got there. I'd run out of smokes, so decided to pop down to the nearest shop to get some before it hit. Unfortunately, there was a massive queue at the counter when I got there. As I was standing in line I started coming up hard. By the time I got served, I was a sweaty bug eyed gurning mess. I grabbed my smokes, ran out the shop and projectile vomited in the street. Felt absolutely great for the rest of the night. I think it was caused by my trying to suppress the come up when all I wanted to do was bounce off the walls...


----------



## Hilopsilo

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I can honestly say I've only felt nausea from MDMA once in my life.
> 
> I went to visit some friends in Manchester and necked a pill when I got there. I'd run out of smokes, so decided to pop down to the nearest shop to get some before it hit. Unfortunately, there was a massive queue at the counter when I got there. As I was standing in line I started coming up hard. By the time I got served, I was a sweaty bug eyed gurning mess. I grabbed my smokes, ran out the shop and projectile vomited in the street. Felt absolutely great for the rest of the night. I think it was caused by my trying to suppress the come up when all I wanted to do was bounce off the walls...



Wow very similar to my experience, I was waiting in line for the bathroom and had to go number 2 so badly, coming up, felt like every molecule in my body was screaming. Finally got in, did my business, got out and instantly puked. Felt awesome afterwards though lol.

Sorry for more off-topic-ish banter


----------



## Save

SOMEBODY CALL THE DOGS OUT!  SHULGIN WHAT DID YOU START?!






Drink water but not too much.


----------



## Save

Glubrahnum said:


> if you are looking for a contemporary 2018 drug, there is always Carfentanil...but I do not recommend it.



1974 you mean?


----------



## Save

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I can honestly say I've only felt nausea from MDMA once in my life.
> 
> I went to visit some friends in Manchester and necked a pill when I got there. I'd run out of smokes, so decided to pop down to the nearest shop to get some before it hit. Unfortunately, there was a massive queue at the counter when I got there. As I was standing in line I started coming up hard. By the time I got served, I was a sweaty bug eyed gurning mess. I grabbed my smokes, ran out the shop and projectile vomited in the street. Felt absolutely great for the rest of the night. I think it was caused by my trying to suppress the come up when all I wanted to do was bounce off the walls...


Hmmm.  Never have I got sick taking mdma.  Never took a pill however.

Are you sure it was the mdma doing that?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Save said:


> Hmmm.  Never have I got sick taking mdma.  Never took a pill however.
> 
> Are you sure it was the mdma doing that?



Can't be sure of anything except they were bloody good pills and never had that effect on any other occasions. I think it was a case of trying to fight the come up because of the situation instead of just relaxing into it.


----------



## StoneHappyMonday

Nobody ever threw up on proper MDMA in the early days. Vomiting was a defining characteristic of when pills changed around 96/97. There can be three reasons to vomit. Impurity. "Overdose". And dodgy synth (it's MDMA Jim, but not as we know it).

Nobody threw up on original doves unless they took stupid amounts.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

StoneHappyMonday said:


> Nobody ever threw up on proper MDMA in the early days. Vomiting was a defining characteristic of when pills changed around 96/97. There can be three reasons to vomit. Impurity. "Overdose". And dodgy synth (it's MDMA Jim, but not as we know it).
> 
> Nobody threw up on original doves unless they took stupid amounts.



I knew plenty of people that threw up on the original doves - they were the ones that viewed coming up as something you had to endure before the proper effects kicked in, i.e. they couldn't handle the take off. Unsurprisingly, these were also the same people who had never taken serious drugs before...


----------



## Andon

I've never vomited from it but I've had a few times with somewhat bigger dosage than usual where I get the feeling of "almost feeling like I need to vomit"...like I recognize that little something in the throat (?) but not to worry about, just get away from a crowd and gather your thoughts and body. 
I just take it as my brain telling me that this is perfect now, everything is fine, just don't take anymore.


----------



## Xorkoth

A friend of mine used to always throw up every time, and immediately after she would be rolling.  We were all taking the same stuff, I never really get nauseous from things and it's never made me vomit, but I've met other people who get the vomiting side effect when coming up.


----------



## Swim15

It definitely seems to be individual as I never throw up but have a few friends who always do. 

I?m a pretty cautious roller but I did drop 240mg one time as I was experimenting, typically never go over 160-180mg, and felt like my throat was closing up on the comeup that subsided after about 5min but that can easily be due to sides from massive neurotransmitter release and effects on alpha and beta cells


----------



## Wubb

I have left my mark in many smoking areas at raves but only ever off pills, never ralphed from crystal


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Any guidelines on how much isopropyl you should use for recrystallization? Thanks


----------



## G_Chem

One spot I just checked said ~15ml hot/boiling Isopropyl per gram.

Just add the hot ISO slowly with stirring until you've dissolved what you can then go from there.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Thanks G_Chem, adding makes sense.


----------



## indigoaura

Update:

Meant to write sooner, but I have been super busy.

Based on a recent experiment, I feel I can safely conclude that capsule type impacts absorption.

Approximately 6 weeks after my last roll (the one that never really took off and was weak overall, with stomach issues afterwards), I decided to take what was left of the DW MDMA at a concert. I only had 100 mg left. I did not expect much. I took it out of the gelatin capsule and put it into a vegan capsule. 

Off this lower dose of 100 mg, I came up around 30 minutes after taking the capsule, and was definitely rolling about 45 minutes later, with eye wiggles. Went to the bathroom at one point and noticed eye dilation. I had 60 mg of some old, old MDMA left. It had been sitting around for 7 years probably. I took that as a re-dose. Had an awesome time at the show, the music was great, felt a lot of positivity etc.

Later on in the night, attempted to keep things going with 50 mg of the sleepy stuff. That just changed the tone of the whole experience and honestly seemed to extinguish a lot of the positive feelings and warmth. There is something that is absolutely different about the sleepy product in comparison to the DW product even when they are both in the same vegan capsules.

No major stomach problems during the following days.

Other possible factors:

Food - I ate lunch around 1 pm, but did not eat again before the concert.

Vitamin C - Took vitamin C before and during the roll.

Also worth noting that this roll was 6 weeks after the previous roll in October, but the October roll was 3 months after the last roll in July. So, there was less of a break this time.

Overall, based on this experience and the other experiences, the capsule type makes a definite difference for me. I rolled faster, harder, and longer off 100 mg in a vegan capsule than I did off 140 mg + 100 mg in gelatin capsules.

I was thinking about starting a thread asking other people to experiment with these variables and post their results.


----------



## Andon

@Indigoaura: is there something specific in the vegan capsules or is your experiment more about the lack of gelatin capsules? In other words, would bombing it with a piece of toilet paper be the same thing?


----------



## maddee2145

There is no objective difference between vegan, gelatin capsule or paper. Why?

Stomach juice contains hydrochlorid acid (HCl), Potasium Chloride (KCl) and Sodium CHloride (NaCl)H CL  which easily can digest and disolve even metal nail. 

Do not try it at home boys







What make sense is rather your Stomach is full or empty.


----------



## psy997

maddee2145 said:


> There is no objective difference between vegan, gelatin capsule or paper. Why?
> 
> Stomach juice contains hydrochlorid acid (HCl), Potasium Chloride (KCl) and Sodium CHloride (NaCl)H CL  which easily can digest and disolve even metal nail.
> 
> Do not try it at home boys
> 
> What make sense is rather your Stomach is full or empty.



A research paper was posted in the past few pages showing that certain types of capsules can actually have a plasticizing effect when introduced with certain chemicals. There's no ground to stand on saying there is no difference, that's just you talking out of your ass because you can't see the possibility.


----------



## indigoaura

Maddee2145, I have experimented before with a full stomach and the vegan capsules and had a great time. This occurred in July with the same batch of MDMA. I have had many years of experience. I do not think it is a food issue.

Andon, I think it is the lack of the gelatin capsule. I researched the issue and found that gelatin can harden and not dissolve when exposed to some compounds. So, there may be some secondary ingredients that are interacting with the gelatin. I also read that some people cannot tolerate gelatin and have digestive upset. I may be one of those people, as the gelatin capsules appear to result in digestive upset after the roll.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Andon said:


> @Indigoaura: is there something specific in the vegan capsules or is your experiment more about the lack of gelatin capsules? In other words, would bombing it with a piece of toilet paper be the same thing?



Bombing in a rizla paper is the way to go IMO - I'm coming up hard within 30 minutes without fail...


----------



## maddee2145

psy997 said:


> a plasticizing effect when introduced with certain chemicals



Are those capsules are known to be gelatine? Or this capsules contain plasticizer? 

Anyways zero chances that medicine capsules for drugs becomes 100% plastic during it way to Stomach and than leaving throw your ass with undisolved MDMA. 

Or did you still belive it could happen? Than use damn toilete paper.


----------



## psy997

maddee2145 said:


> Are those capsules are known to be gelatine? Or this capsules contain plasticizer?
> 
> Anyways zero chances that medicine capsules for drugs becomes 100% plastic during it way to Stomach and than leaving throw your ass with undisolved MDMA.
> 
> Or did you still belive it could happen? Than use damn toilete paper.



What do you feel you're contributing to this thread besides baseless speculation and opinion?

Yes, it is obvious that there are numerous ways to bypass this effect. And, we are attempting to discern all possible factors in the subpar effects of MDMA experienced recently. While a minor piece, the capsule development is a piece of that intention.


----------



## maddee2145

psy997 said:


> What do you feel you're contributing to this thread besides baseless speculation and opinion?
> 
> Yes, it is obvious that there are numerous ways to bypass this effect. And, we are attempting to discern all possible factors in the subpar effects of MDMA experienced recently. While a minor piece, the capsule development is a piece of that intention.






Gelatine, vegan or capsules which containes any sort of plastisizer not affect MDMA absorbtion, because capsule affected by Stomach juice within acidic environment will be fully disolved and absorbed. 

As far as you not use fully* plastic cap* which is not designed to ingest drugs other capsules designed for it is not a reason for bad absorbtions


P.S. I think confusion comes from using term Bio-plastic (chemicaly modified gelatine). No. This material is not used in capsules for drug injestions.


----------



## indigoaura

maddee, it is obvious from reading your posts that you have not read the research in question. 

If you are not willing to do the legwork and read the associated links, articles, and scientific research, then why bother posting?

Getting really tired of new members popping on and mouthing off without having the necessary background information to contribute meaningfully.


----------



## maddee2145

Please show me where is this information could be found about gel capsule converting to plastic while being injested?! Appreciate. 

And are you the one who asked about gel capsules first?  

I got an answer for you budd, which you continue to ingor. Basicly just because I am a new member. Let stop it guys , let make sense in discussion


----------



## G_Chem

Hmmm that is interesting..  I had a feeling when you'd try it again you'd have a good experience.  It is interesting how the other product seems to negate the roll of the initial dosing too which you've shown multiple times happens.  (What kinda music did ya see?)

While I'd be interested to see more experiments with this theory in mind, it also got me thinking about how I take MDXX.  From day 1 I've always chewed up my dose raw and washed it down.  Could be one factor in why my experiences are always consistent.

I should also mention, I've seen hundreds of vegan caps (not sure of exact components) get eaten over the years with zero complaints.

I was actually supposed to roll myself a few days ago but ended up feeling way too sick from the drinking/K from the night before.  This was a special batch I'd been hanging onto that was exceedingly pure clear/white.  (Most batches I get are white with some clarity, it's just when you put them next to each other then the highest purity product will stand out.)  120mg had my girls jaw swinging in the breeze lol.  I tried 50mg later in the night not expecting much and actually felt a decent roll of it.  Unfortunately though the nausea from the night before won out and I was in bed til morning when I woke up feeling like a million bucks.

-GC


----------



## Swim15

Im going to 2nd the idea about gelatin not absorbing being bullshit. Theres no chemical basis for that and those capsules are meant to be ingested.

Ive also used numerous capsules as thats the only way I ever roll (with rock) and have never had an issue. I have, however, had rolls from the same batch be wildly different in feeling and come up which can be attributed to food, supplements, etc. Ive found I have ALWAYS had the best rolls on an empty stomach with no food for at least 8 hours prior. Any other time Ive got food or supps on my stomach it gives variable rolls, comeups, etc.


----------



## Xorkoth

For me, using gel caps is different from ingesting a drug straight (with no capsule or coating, just the powder).  I believe, however, that it's because the gel cap alters the kinetics of absorption somewhat, leading to a less rapid rise to peak plasma levels.  That's my theory anyway because I certainly notice a difference.  The difference is the greatest between vegetable caps (as opposed to gelatin) and dissolving a chemical in water and drinking it, the former taking longer to begin and coming on slower, and the latter beginning very quickly and coming up fast.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Shadowmeister said:


> For me, using gel caps is different from ingesting a drug straight (with no capsule or coating, just the powder).  I believe, however, that it's because the gel cap alters the kinetics of absorption somewhat, leading to a less rapid rise to peak plasma levels.  That's my theory anyway because I certainly notice a difference.  The difference is the greatest between vegetable caps (as opposed to gelatin) and dissolving a chemical in water and drinking it, the former taking longer to begin and coming on slower, and the latter beginning very quickly and coming up fast.



Makes sense.

Either way, indigo just eat it straight and you won't have to worry about the different types of gel caps. I think for the sake of being scientific here, anyone who's been following this thread and has come across these issues, take it straight with no cap and crush to a fine powder, that way we're just eliminating those variables in the IMO very small chance thats the culprit here..


----------



## indigoaura

For those asking for the link:

Here is that link: 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5830853/

That article commented, "Low molecular weight PEGs in the fill formulation can diffuse into the gelatin shell and act as plasticizer which limits their use."

And yes, some synthesis methods for MDMA involve PEGs.

For me, it is also a question of if I perhaps do not digest gelatin in a comfortable manner. Hence, the stomach issues.


----------



## indigoaura

G-Chem, the music was Nine Inch Nails (which, gotta say, was phenomenal).


----------



## indigoaura

Quick question: would any of you try a product that had only been reagent tested and not lab tested? If so, which reagents would you require to feel it was safe?


----------



## G_Chem

NiN would be interesting rolling, definitely like their music.

I very rarely take product that's been lab tested.  I use Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin, and Simons.  It can take some time to learn little nuances of the tests but after years of testing samples I've become pretty familiar with them.

The only danger I see would be fentanyl contamination which there's a reagent for but based on lab tests I've seen they don't appear to be the most accurate.  (They give false positives when no fentanyl is present at times.)

I guess I must ask what your trying to avoid? I personally feel fairly safe using just reagents at the moment but I also trust the people that help me out.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Quick question: would any of you try a product that had only been reagent tested and not lab tested? If so, which reagents would you require to feel it was safe?


I wouldn't.

Recently, I have been advising people to wash out the MDMA with solvents and send only the remaining contaminants to the lab.


----------



## Xorkoth

I've never sent anything to a lab for testing, in the US this is prohibitively expensive though I guess in the EU you guys have Energy Control which is cheap and reliable.  Reagents, however, are highly recommended.


----------



## indigoaura

I used to be willing to go with reagent only. However, for the past ten years or so, everything has been lab tested. It can be hard though if you do not have your supply well in advance of the event. After all this discussion, I just don't know if I would feel comfortable taking anything I have not sent to a lab. Just curious how others approach it.


----------



## G_Chem

I'd be lying if I said it hasn't crossed my mind once or twice that reagents may fail me one day.  Especially with LTC thread and many posts on Reddit where people are getting fucked up off one random experience.

I don't let it bother me too much though as I go through a semi-niche market that is very reliable.  On top of that it seems even lab testing can't figure out LTC (and may not even be an impurity thing for all we know) so I just do reagents.

For me if a batch was contaminated it would likely never reach me as the first complaint would get it, sadly, sold to other people that don't know any better or just your average "custy" that tries to grab off some rando at a show.  (Hate saying it but no one wants to take the loss, and they also don't wanna burn bridges so it's gotta go somewhere.)

Even with trust of these people and knowing many of them for quite a few years, I still ask a million questions.  Reagent tests can be fooled but a persons experience (and good discernment on your end) can give many clues to how that batch will be.

With all that said, if I was most people I'd probably use lab testing services more.  Especially if I was your average Ecstasy user.  In the US it's much cheaper to get a pill tested than a powder/crystal plus it seems people more often have complications with pills over pure product.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Spoke to someone local who is also a long time roller. He was well aware of the issues we have all been talking about, and recently had a negative experience on imported molly from Europe. He and a friend took 300 mg and never rolled. He said it, "just wasn't right." He also agreed that it felt sleepy, music was not enhanced, and he felt no real desire to dance. Yes, this product looked great on reagent tests. He also believes these issues are due to a precursor change impacting the final product. 

This individual donated some of the bad molly to be tested. I will be sending it to Energy Control, unless Hilopsilo thinks his lab would analyze it. Obviously, I will post the results here. In appearance, it is a dry white powder. No noticeable crystals. 

Interestingly, I have now also obtained some product that originates more locally that gets this guy's stamp of approval. Supposed to be derived from safrole. This is the product I would like to consume with reagent only testing. Just don't know how comfortable I am with that though, considering the wide array of bullshit that may possibly result. However, it has been consumed by others with no ill effects, so there is that. 

What is the best way to upload a video on here anonymously? I am going to try to video the reagent test results to get everyone's feedback. 

Regardless of reagent results, both samples will go to a lab and will contribute more info to this conversation.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> This individual donated some of the bad molly to be tested.


Are you savvy enough to do reverse washing in order to remove any MDxx and send the remaining contaminants for testing?
It would require access to pure solvents....


----------



## indigoaura

Glubra, I have not ever done that before, but I could try. I may split the sample in two and send one half of the sample without messing with it, and then try to reverse wash the other half. Depends on how much there is. Energy Control requires a 50 mg sample.

Also, I opened up one of the capsules of the "good" stuff. It definitely smells like safrole, and is a light sand/off white color. Almost a pink/gold sand color. Smells way stronger than the stuff I got from the DW previously. Smells like a bag of good pills in the early 2000s. I need to find my camera to get a decent macro shot. 

I have taken brown molly before, but I have not see it exactly this color before.


----------



## indigoaura

Also worth mentioning...the capsules for the "good" product were made at exactly 120 mg. So, they are not overdoing the dosage as seems to be the case with many pills going around.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Yea I always weigh out mine 120.  100 is great don't get me wrong but I feel 120 is the sweet spot for most people especially those that are seasoned.

Hmm I'm really curious to hear about your experience with this new batch.  The light pink/gold coloration has been associated with very good product in the past but of course the proof is in the pudding.

Also if you figure out how to upload I'll take a look and give feedback.  Use at least the Marquis, Mecke, and Simons.  Even if you lab test you should still reagent test as it could help you/us later better find the good product.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Ordered a Marquis/Mecke/Simons combo from Dancesafe. Could not find my old one. I'll upload videos once I have the test results. I will show the result for the new two samples, and my old sleepy sample.

(and, I agree about 120 being the better start dose. 100 usually just does not quite push me past the thresh-hold).


----------



## G_Chem

Yay I'm excited to see those  thanks for putting in so much effort Indigo btw.

I will say that it might be possible you have some Leuckart MDXX as your newest batch.  I feel my constant shilling of this synthesis route has actually gotten chemists to start using it again as I've seen reagent results lately popping up again that mimic the old 90's product.

I just started another thread on this topic, talking about how the Marquis in the 90's used to go a dark inky blue.  I had found a post on Reddit where some guy had a pic of such a reaction along with a positive melting point test.  Since that I've seen two more posts recently on Reddit with the same dark blue inky Marquis reactions.  Funny too cuz just like before, in the comments people are asking "but why is it blue??"

I've never personally seen, in person or online, a blue Marquis reaction until recently and now they are popping up...  It's made me believe that the original EZ Test Color Chart was accurate but once the synth route changed they questioned everything and just went with a "purple/black means MDXX" approach.

I say this in hopes that maybe your newest batch is from the "Leuckart."  But we'll see!

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

That would be interesting, GC. I was told that this new sample originated in Mexico. First time Mexico has popped up in the conversation that I have seen. Definitely not coming from Europe. It certainly smells good!


----------



## G_Chem

Really??..  Mexico has put out good product before.  The famous Pokeballs of SoCal that reigned supreme from late 2000's to early 2010's were coming out of Mexico.

It being of Mexican origin also further solidifies it being made from safrole as that is likely going to be the precursor of choice for them.  (For a few reasons which I can state if anyone's curious..)

Also the I could see them using older synthesis routes too for a number of reasons, Leuckart potentially being one of those.

The only downside of products from Mexico is just like the other drugs they sell, once they corner the market they'll drop the quality hardcore...  Good thing though that they'll never be able to, which may force them to always keep the quality high.

With all that said, Mexican MDMA is a rarity (at least currently, that could change) so it'll be interesting to hear how it all turns out.

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> It being of Mexican origin also further solidifies it being made from safrole as that is likely going to be the precursor of choice for them.  (For a few reasons which I can state if anyone's curious..)


I am curious. Are there any ubiquitous botanical sources of safrole in Mexico ?



G_Chem said:


> Also the I could see them using older synthesis routes too for a number of reasons, Leuckart potentially being one of those.


Why would they choose Leucart?


----------



## G_Chem

Q1- Not that I'm aware of but I wouldn't be surprised.  Cartels do have a strong presence in both SouthEast US and Brazil however where there is lots of safrole still to be had.  (There are other safrole sources in Mexico that come to mind but they aren't easy to use, Piper auritum being one.)

Q2- Mexican chemists aren't known as being cutting edge by any means.  They also try to use the cheapest reagents/precursors possible.  Leuckart is a well known established method which I'm certain cartel chemists would know and it uses really cheap and easy to obtain precursors.

The limiting factor of the Leuckart is its yield, purity and unpredictability, but they can be controlled once the chemist finds their groove with the method from what I've read.  The purity while lower may be subjectively better..

Mexican cartels have been known to take steps back to older methods.  I've heard they still use the old p2p al/hg method.

With all that said, my money wouldn't be on saying it's synthesized via Leuckart.  It's just a slim possibility that seemed impossible up until recently.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Just wanted to quickly update. Got my Dacesafe kits. The Mexico product reacted immediately to everything. The reaction was so fast, I couldn't even start counting.

Marquis - Purple/Black (with some bubbling)
Mecke - Green/Black
Simons - Blue

I did film it, but I don't know if the quality of the video really shows the subtle color variations.

I also tested the sleepy product. That product also reacted very quickly to everything. Only difference that I noticed was that on the Marquis test it went brown/black instead of purple/black. I seem to recall this being mentioned somewhere before in this thread as being significant. 

Only reaction that seemed slightly confusing on the Mexico product was the Simon's reaction. There was some of the product that did not turn blue right away. However, that was a larger chunk, and I think it is possible that it did not come into contact with Simon's B. Also possible that this Mexico mix is blending MDMA with MDA. If that is the case, it is a very small portion of MDA in the mix compared to MDMA. I did a second Simon's test, and everything turned blue. I could have continued to test with Simon's, but I hated to waste more and more product.

I have to find somewhere to upload and share the video links, and then I will post them.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Only difference that I noticed was that on the Marquis test it went brown/black instead of purple/black.


Sugar makes Marquis react with a brown color.  Maybe it is the excipient.

P.S.
I received another sample of the sleepy Molly in the form of tan crystals from Amsterdam.  I will have the results soon after the holidays.


----------



## indigoaura

Use report

Product - Mexico

Environment - small NYE gathering with a few friends. Music playing. Low key.

I barely ate lunch around 3 pm, and did not eat dinner. So, I was hungry by 9:50 pm when I proceeded.

Transferred product from gelatin capsule to vegetarian cellulose capsule.

Took 120 mg at 9:50 pm

Brief "rush" at 10:06 pm. Sort of a "blood rushing to head" feeling.

10:29 pm - Roll has started

10:44 pm - Eye jitters and visual disturbances. Checked mirror and had eye dilation.

11:25 - Nauseous. Ran to bathroom and had a few dry heaves then felt fine. This is what used to happen to me every time, but not usually so far in. Usually in the first 30 minutes or so.

Boosted with about 75 mg at 11:45 pm. 

Boosted again with 60 mg at 1:20 am.

Wish I would have taken note of the time, but somewhere around 2:30 or so I felt like I was done. Come down was pretty fast and easy. I just felt sober, almost exactly how I felt before I took it. No cracked out or sick feeling at all. Hung out with friends until 5 am or so, and then went to sleep with no issue and slept soundly until 1 pm today.

Today, no sickness. No weirdness. Feel normal. Did not chew my mouth up, so I don't think much was happening with my jaw.

So, here is my overall analysis. 

I was conservative with my use because I really did not feel like dealing with any bullshit later this week. So, I kept my dose relatively low (for me). My typical pattern would have been to boost with another full pill rather than the 75 mg. So, in some ways, I might have subdued a roll that would have otherwise blasted off. That said, I still did not get what I was looking for. At this point, I am feeling that tolerance may be a decent part of the puzzle for me. I have tried several batches, and none of them match up with the feelings that I remember.

I felt good, fine. I stopped worrying about a lot of random stuff I had been worrying about throughout the day. I chatted with my friends. I sent a bunch of Happy New Year texts to random people. I petted my dogs, and they felt pretty soft. But, I cannot honestly say I felt euphoric. Also, the tactile enhancement that typically made me want to have as much sex as possible was just not there. I also can't say that the music sounded much different than it normally would. Meh.

I think it is a step in the right direction that this stuff did not give me the negative side effects that I have been getting from the sleepy stuff. That indigestion/dizziness bullshit is just not fun, and enough to make me want to stay away. I also think it is a great sign that one dose pushed me over to eye jitters and dilated pupils. To be fair, I did just roll at the end of November. I have been dealing with pretty short breaks in between these experiments, so it might be catching up to me. There will be a longer break this time.

So, I am going to get more. Next time, I will try a higher dose and see how that goes. As soon as Energy Control International re-opens their drug testing service, I will be sending it in to them to get the full lab report. 

My friend, who took much more than me (he took 4 total whole doses throughout the night), seemed to have an awesome time. He kept commenting on how much stronger it was, and ended up with his shirt unbuttoned as he lazed around on the sofa. For a guy who usually just paces the floor talking vehemently about politics and the historical connotations of rock and roll, I thought that was a noticeable difference. 

Happy new year, everyone!


----------



## indigoaura

So, Chonciceptor just posted in another thread, "MDMA vs. MDMA." Seems very relevant to our conversation. I invited him over here.



> So, let me start by saying that none of these products have ever been tested with a test kit. I know that?s dumb. With that being said, I?m just asking for straight opinions lol. So.....I have a background of using ecstasy in the late 90?s and early 2000?s. And it was great! Total euphoria and closeness and all that Jazz. Hadn?t done any since 2004. So about 2 years ago, my fianc? at he time, now my wife, says that she wants to try it and I was totally cool trying it with her because inhad never had the chance in my youth to roll with a significant other or a female who was single for that matter, so I thought it would be really fun. As luck would have it, a coworker the following week said he could get it easily. Now, back when I used to do it, pressed pills was all we got, the stuff he got for us was a damn rock the size of A fucking gum ball. Let me tell you, it was amazing. This stuff had euphoria, the eye jitters, jaw clenching, dance energy, and was the most hyper sexual feeling I have ever felt. Nasty sex for hours straight, you name it, we did it. We got this quality of stuff for a solid year from my friends source. Then he disappeared never to be heard from again. So, not knowing anyone in the scene, we turn to the dark net lol. We have never had any products that even come close. No euphoria, no sexual urges, no energy. Just eye jitters, jaw clenching, and wanting to lay around. So what?s the deal? After researching I feel like maybe the stuff we had from my friend was actually methylone and not mdma, is there any merit to this line of thinking?


----------



## Chonciceptor

Thanks for reposting my thread, I was just looking at this like you suggested, and reading through a bunch of the comments, it seems I am having a similar situation. I?m just in awe how I had 1 guy who could get the very best stuff I?ve ever had, and ever since then, I?ve had stuff from all over the world, and it all basically sucks lol.


----------



## Chonciceptor

Also, I am going to get test kits now and stay on top of everything we get.  I didn?t even realize those existed to the public until recently, it would have been nice to test my old connections goods.


----------



## indigoaura

Chonciceptor,

To comment on what you said in the other thread...in my opinion, sexuality on MDMA is not something that is blatantly obvious until you access it. Like I mentioned, I did not experience it with one partner, and then I did with the other. It wasn't an option until it was an option. Then, it was just like all the lights came on, and WOW. Nothing like it.

But, like you, since my original supplier retired I just have not been able to find the same product. You said the stuff you got from the DW was lacking in every way, and I would agree. Dose does not make it better.

I have some questions for you...

What did the good product look like? Was it clear, brown, tan, champagne in color?

Where are you located (if you don't mind us asking)? Did the dealer ever mention where the product came from?

Did the product have a smell?

Do you have a baggie left over or anything with any remnant of the old product?

In contrast, what have the bad products looked like? Where did they originate according to the DW?

There is a testing company called Energy Control International. I am about to send several samples in. They will provide a full PDF report.
https://energycontrol-international.org/drug-testing-service/submitting-a-sample/

You can also order the testing kits on Dancesafe.

Has your wife had the same experience as you? Does she also notice the extreme difference in the products?


----------



## Glubrahnum

Below are the results of Raman analysis of anise smelling tan crystals from Amsterdam.
63% 3,4-MDMA HCl
31% 3,4-MDPH HCl
The rest is Mannitol/Sorbitol and some stuff below the detection threshold of my analyzer.

The enantiomer ratio was not determined because my analyzer does not have any quarter plates nor polarizers.  I'd have to beg a colleague at work for it.

The friend of a friend who brought it to me said that 170mg lasted him 4h (1h comeup), no mydriasis, no empathy, no euforia (he sat on a chair all the time).
Comedown lasted 3 days.

Last time he used a phenethylamine class drug was in 2014 and cocaine in 2016.  Not taking any anti-depression medications.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> 10:44 pm - Eye jitters and visual disturbances. Checked mirror and had eye dilation.


I wish everyone checked that.


----------



## indigoaura

Glubra,

What are the implications of 31% 3,4-MDPH HCl?


----------



## indigoaura

Just read Shulgin's comments on MDPH, and he says it contains "none of the magic of MDMA" and results in a non-rewarding, "stoned" feeling. This was from the Pikhal entry.

Do you think it is plausible that this substance is binding to receptors first, and blocking the action of MDMA? Would this substance show up from non-raman analysis?


----------



## indigoaura

Also, just checked ecstasydata, and not a single result shows up with MDPH in a pill or powder sold as ecstasy. I see one result with MDPHP, but that is it. And, that product was not sold as ecstasy.


----------



## Xorkoth

Wow, that's interesting, so yours tested for 31% MDPH?  Never heard of that being in circulation in any way.


----------



## Goodwalt

Is the molar mass of this compound similar to MDMA's? Maybe it's indistinguishable if you're not looking for it.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> What are the implications of 31% 3,4-MDPH HCl?


Maybe a *t-BOC *deprotection gone wrong...?
...or someone was trying to add a methylenedioxy bridge to Phentermine.



indigoaura said:


> Do you think it is plausible that this substance is binding to receptors first, and blocking the action of MDMA?


I wouldn't presume to write about it. I am a physical chemist - not a neuropharmacologist.
I read somewhere that MDPH interacts with 2-CB, so maybe it interacts with other drugs, too.



indigoaura said:


> Would this substance show up from non-raman analysis?


It would not show up on MS because it has the same molar mass as MDMA and mass spectrography depends on that mass.
It might show up on GC if the chromatography column is good.  It would show up after derivatization for sure.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Goodwalt said:


> Is the molar mass of this compound similar to MDMA's? Maybe it was indistinguishable if you're not looking for it.


It is identical, that's why Mass Spectrometry cannot distinguish it unless it is derivatized/selectively fragmented.
I have listed more of these isobaries in *post #595*.


----------



## indigoaura

This is a huge development, Glubrahnum. This basically proves that chemicals that are NOT MDMA are being sold as MDMA, but are indistinguishable from MDMA using typical testing methods. 

Any idea what this chemical would look like in response to common reagents?


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Any idea what this chemical would look like in response to common reagents?


I could mix up the Marquis and check ...but I really hate the smell of formaldehyde.


----------



## indigoaura

Endure the smell! Knowing how this shows up on a reagent would be super helpful.


----------



## indigoaura

So, Glubra,

based on what they say here: https://energycontrol-international.org/drug-testing-service/

It sounds like I would need to specifically inform them that MDPH has been identified as a potential contaminant and request Ion Trap-Mass Spectrometry (IT-MS)?

It does not look like they offer Raman, and from what you are saying, GC-MS is not going to cut it.


----------



## indigoaura

Huh...found this old thread...http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...H-and-other-positional-isomers?highlight=MDPH


----------



## indigoaura

Is there a way we can make a shared database where we can upload the product that was tested, how it was tested, the results, and the user report (if any)? It can be hard to dig through all these pages to review all the products that have been tested thus far.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> and from what you are saying, GC-MS is not going to cut it.


In my opinion MS will not distinguish MDMA isobaries such as MDPH , simple GC-MS will have a difficulty distingushing them (depending on quality of the GC column) and derivatized GC-MS will not have a difficulty.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> This is a huge development, Glubrahnum. This basically proves that chemicals that are NOT MDMA are being sold as MDMA, but are indistinguishable from MDMA using typical testing methods.


We do not know how often that happens.  This is only one sample!

Also, I'd like to check whether any of the testing centers in Netherlands can detect a potent contaminant added to a sample of pure MDMA.
Me thinks a lethal dose of one of the synthetic opioids would be an eye opener, if the testing centers fail to detect 0.1mg of it in a 100mg pill.


----------



## Chonciceptor

Hi everyone, I just typed up a huge response that didn?t freaking post uhhg! So here we go again! I?ll answer your questions tonthe best of my ability.  To start I live in a major port city in the Southwest with a fairly recent World Series championship, I?m sure you can guess which one lol. First off, my local supplier gave us an assortment of different colored products. Huge clear white rocks, champagne shards, brown powder, and even some that was slightly pink, and I mean ever so slightly. Smell was as expected, slight root beer, and the taste was absolutely awful, just like I remembered back in the early 2000?s.  All of them with the same results, absolutely mdmazing lol. Total euphoria, closeness, dance energy, and super sexual. All the expected side effects, Jaw clenching, eye rolling, heavy deep breaths, body heat, etc.  with every roll we would redose once, and the total experience would last around 6-8 hrs maybe even up to 10 at times. Now on to the dark web stuff. No euphoria at all. Very little empathy/closeness, no energy, just want to lay about, and no sexual desire at all. Still all the other effects though, jaw clenching etc. We definitely get ?high? but it?s not overly good, not bad, just not good, which I?m sure makes sense to y?all, which is why I am here lol...wtf! My wife feels the exact same except maybe even less enjoyable, she?s losing the urge to do it altogether, which is disheartening. We have ordered from Germany, Amsterdam, and Great Britain, and all the stuff we?ve been getting lately is domestic US. All with the same damn results. It?s a very sad state of affairs.


----------



## Chonciceptor

I?ll also add that the only thing higher doses do is prolong the effect, but we generally only get 4-6 hours out of the dark web stuff.


----------



## G_Chem

This is very interesting... I remember reading lately that a slight change during production can result in MDPH (or the "phentermine analog" as I recall them saying..) but can't for the life of me remember with what synthesis and/or precursor.  I will be sure to keep an eye out and hopefully stumble upon it again..

What I remember is that it is possible to inadvertently produce this analog and that it indeed weakens the product, but not much more..

I'd also agree that this impurity may be culprit, it fits the bill better than anything else we've seen thus far..  Can't be detected by GC/MS, activity is what we'd expect, it very well could compete with MDMA for receptor sites.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Chonciceptor, your experience is so identical to mine it is almost scary. I am pretty sure, from your description, that we are in the same general area as well. Your descriptions are almost identical to what I would write. Did you also find that the DW stuff left you feeling cool or cold moreso than hot?

Except, I have had no luck finding the "classic" MDMA since about 2005. My partner lost interest as well, after the repeated and disappointing experiences. A very sad state of affairs indeed, as those old MDMA experiences were amazing.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> This is very interesting... I remember reading lately that a slight change during production can result in MDPH (or the "phentermine analog" as I recall them saying..) but can't for the life of me remember with what synthesis and/or precursor.  I will be sure to keep an eye out and hopefully stumble upon it again..
> 
> What I remember is that it is possible to inadvertently produce this analog and that it indeed weakens the product, but not much more..
> 
> I'd also agree that this impurity may be culprit, it fits the bill better than anything else we've seen thus far..  Can't be detected by GC/MS, activity is what we'd expect, it very well could compete with MDMA for receptor sites.
> 
> -GC



Interesting. As I'd not heard of this substance before, I checked out the wickipedia entry:

3,4-Methylenedioxyphentermine (MDPH) is a lesser-known psychedelic drug. MDPH was first synthesized by Alexander Shulgin. In his book PiHKAL (Phenethylamines i Have Known And Loved), the dosage range is listed as 160–240 mg, and the duration as 3–5 hours.[1] MDPH's effects are very similar to those of MDA: they both are smooth and "stoning," and do not cause any visuals. They also alter dreams and dream patterns. Shulgin describes MDPH as a promoter; it promotes the effects of other drugs, similarly to 2C-D. Very little data exists about the pharmacological properties, metabolism, and toxicity of MDPH.

I've got some crystal atm that matches this description exactly.


----------



## indigoaura

Is there anyone out there who does raman spectroscopy on samples instead of GC/MS?


----------



## indigoaura

Also, it seems to me that we are inching closer to an academic premise for publishing research. "What percentage of MDMA samples contain other substances with an identical molar mass that are indistinguishable on traditional GC/MS testing?"

I wish anyone here on the forum had connections to a university where we could proceed in a legitimate way with this research. 

Also, the info that F.U.B.A.R. posted lines up with why people are consuming higher and higher doses. 

Glubra, is there anyway you could send these results to ecstasydata? Perhaps we could push them to alter their approach if they understood that this is a documented impurity that may be occurring in more samples.


----------



## indigoaura

To flip this whole thread on its head...is it possible that the more enjoyable/pleasurable product is not even MDMA? I know that sounds nuts, but if there are analogs that have the same molar mass that are also active...who knows? It seems some people have experienced this specific higher energy, higher sexuality, euphoric vibe and some people have not.

I'm totally questioning reality at this point. LOL.

F.U.B.A.R. if you get a chance, read the PIKHAL entry too. Shulgin specifically states that although it has many similar physical qualities, that MDPH totally lacks the magic of MDMA.


----------



## tripnnface

G_Chem said:


> Really??..  Mexico has put out good product before.  The famous Pokeballs of SoCal that reigned supreme from late 2000's to early 2010's were coming out of Mexico.
> 
> It being of Mexican origin also further solidifies it being made from safrole as that is likely going to be the precursor of choice for them.  (For a few reasons which I can state if anyone's curious..)
> 
> Also the I could see them using older synthesis routes too for a number of reasons, Leuckart potentially being one of those.
> 
> The only downside of products from Mexico is just like the other drugs they sell, once they corner the market they'll drop the quality hardcore...  Good thing though that they'll never be able to, which may force them to always keep the quality high.
> 
> With all that said, Mexican MDMA is a rarity (at least currently, that could change) so it'll be interesting to hear how it all turns out.
> 
> -GC



Pokeballs are still my best roll ever. The white thundercats reeked like root beer.  fuckin a, i miss pokeballs


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Endure the smell! Knowing how this shows up on a reagent would be super helpful.


I mixed up some Marquis.
With the latest sample, it immediately goes straight to black @ 22C.


----------



## G_Chem

So much to respond to..  But for now.

@Indigo- It's possible but unlikely.  My guess is that any past MDMA that felt better was down to impurities and not another substance completely..

@Glubra- Thank you for testing that.  It seems Marquis can tell.  What I've learned is that lots of bad MDMA goes straight black but doesn't always mean straight to black is bad.  Really appreciate your hard work as always!

@tripnface- Yup I remember those days..  Back then Piperazines ruled and it was hard to find quality product.  The only two places seemingly on planet earth that could still get good MDMA at that time was Cali and the Midwest.

You guys had Pokeballs, whereas we had the chitown MintMan.  Best ecstasy pills I've ever done as well.  Mints were better tho .  I remember people saying the mints had the old school 90's feel to them too.

Both the mints and pokes were examples of high quality MDMA presses.  90-100mg, the pokes had a lil caffeine too..  That's all it takes of good shit.

I watched a guy drop two "pink equals" mints one time cuz all other MDMA he needed large doses.  Dude is a big guy and got his ass absolutely handed to him on the come up.  Every time I took a mint it was the perfect roll on one plus a half.

The mints were legendary too in that they were almost impossible to replicate.  They weighed 120-130mg with 90-100mg MDXX, they had such a minimal amount of filler that towards the end they looked like mdma crystal pressed into a tablet.  All copycats would fall apart just by looking at them.

Good good times..  We sat pretty while the rest of the world fought over scraps.  All the safrole in Asia may have been nuked in 2007 but we always got sassy growing in the southeast USA 

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

Just read through the last 2 pages to catch up. I think the main issue here, same with the ~26 compounds that glub posted a while back, underivitized GCMS is apparently a thing of the past. Why base theories on this if most if not all GCMS is derivitized and would pick these compounds up? Just trying to be scientific here.

Conciceptor its good to hear yet another person finding these same issues, do you still have access to the superior product from your "supplier"? The only way to COMPLETELY remove any doubt that its not loss of magic/nostalgia/"back in the day" is to also acquire product now that gives the desired effects for a truly accurate comparison.


----------



## indigoaura

Glubra, what do you mean by @22C?

Hilopsilo, I don't think Chonciceptor has any of the superior product left. He said that the supplier disappeared. I agree though, what we really need is an accurate lab test result of a product that produces the desired effects. I don't think "loss of magic" works with Chonciceptor's story though, because his wife was a virgin user. It seems highly unlikely to me that she would feel the same differences in product if it was a "loss of magic" issue at play.

Also, Hilopsilo, your test results show a clear difference in magic vs. non-magic products, experienced by the same user(s) within the same timeframe. Your results are tremendously beneficial to this whole conversation.

Chonciceptor, I will put this out there too. If you do have ANY of the superior product laying around, or you get in touch with the supplier again, I will pay for a test at Energy Control. All you have to do is drop it in the mail. That would be a very valuable piece to this puzzle.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Glubra, what do you mean by @22C?


The ambient temperature of the reaction.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> ...underivitized GCMS is apparently a thing of the past. Why base theories on this if most if not all GCMS is derivitized and would pick these compounds up? Just trying to be scientific here.


You are right of course IF all GC/MS is derivatized and it is done with the right solvent that will form distinguishable derivatives. I am just not sure it is always the case...especially with labs that try to minimize their operating costs.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> You are right of course IF all GC/MS is derivatized and it is done with the right solvent that will form distinguishable derivatives. I am just not sure it is always the case...especially with labs that try to minimize their operating costs.



It doesn't even need to be all, it just needs to be some or a few to start seeing some weird stuff. Out of the thousands of samples sent in to labs all over the world, I can only imagine some of the testing is derivatized and would pick it up. I guess an easy way to find out would be to send them an email asking them to clarify their testing processes.


----------



## tripnnface

G_Chem said:


> So much to respond to..  But for now.
> 
> @Indigo- It's possible but unlikely.  My guess is that any past MDMA that felt better was down to impurities and not another substance completely..
> 
> @Glubra- Thank you for testing that.  It seems Marquis can tell.  What I've learned is that lots of bad MDMA goes straight black but doesn't always mean straight to black is bad.  Really appreciate your hard work as always!
> 
> @tripnface- Yup I remember those days..  Back then Piperazines ruled and it was hard to find quality product.  The only two places seemingly on planet earth that could still get good MDMA at that time was Cali and the Midwest.
> 
> You guys had Pokeballs, whereas we had the chitown MintMan.  Best ecstasy pills I've ever done as well.  Mints were better tho .  I remember people saying the mints had the old school 90's feel to them too.
> 
> Both the mints and pokes were examples of high quality MDMA presses.  90-100mg, the pokes had a lil caffeine too..  That's all it takes of good shit.
> 
> I watched a guy drop two "pink equals" mints one time cuz all other MDMA he needed large doses.  Dude is a big guy and got his ass absolutely handed to him on the come up.  Every time I took a mint it was the perfect roll on one plus a half.
> 
> The mints were legendary too in that they were almost impossible to replicate.  They weighed 120-130mg with 90-100mg MDXX, they had such a minimal amount of filler that towards the end they looked like mdma crystal pressed into a tablet.  All copycats would fall apart just by looking at them.
> 
> Good good times..  We sat pretty while the rest of the world fought over scraps.  All the safrole in Asia may have been nuked in 2007 but we always got sassy growing in the southeast USA
> 
> -GC



broooo i havent heard about mints in so long!!

sadly never got to try a single one, so much hype over the years. damn


----------



## indigoaura

Has anyone heard of a testing kit from testkitplus that tests the purity of the MDMA sample? Just read about it. Do you think it would be worth buying?


----------



## G_Chem

^^Ive heard of em and I do think they work ok but may not be accurate enough to give too many clues.  From what I've heard/seen they can tell you generally like 20% increments based on the darkness of the color reaction.

I've always thought they'd be better for getting a rough idea how strong an Ecstasy pill is.  To bring back the mints I was just talking about, they had 10% or less of filler.  Whereas most pills are 50%..  If I presented a Chi Mint to today's new generation they'd scoff at it cuz they're used to half gram sized pills.

I think it's worth a try, I've always been curious about them.  Maybe I'll buy one too.

-GC


----------



## psyloq

I actually made a post about this but posting here an altered version of the same. Which is that I just wanted to add that I took <100mg today for the very first time. The stuff came in crystals, not powder or snowflake-like consistency, but salt-like crystals, it had a brownish coloration and it was made in Holland, purchased via the DN. I was not able to precisely weigh the hit because my scales only has .1g precision so had to guesstimate but it's possible I may have taken anywhere between 50mg-100mg; yeah, quite a BIG margin, sorry, especially with effects reportedly being non-linear.

Effects were pretty much as described on rollsafe.org/erowid with initial come up starting 30 min in and a more intense feeling 1h in, then peaking at the 3h mark. Had had two large McDonald's for salt supplementation Now, 4h in I can still feel something but veeery mild and gentle. There was no mydriasis at all at any time and, while I felt really peaceful and way more "empathetic" than normal as if my normal "ego barriers" had been brought down, I can't say I felt the MDMA unbounded love that I see people talk about here with such passion. Also no jaw clenching. Felt clear headed too, if that makes sense.

Having read quite a few posts in this thread alone, I'm beginning to suspect that (a) the thread title is probably correct and (b) those who claim MDMA ain't what it used to be, are probably right too. So, really, the real question we should be focusing on is probably: fuck this cheap shit, where do we get REAL MDMA from?


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

I wonder if 31% 3,4-MDPH is enough to explain the effects - or lack thereof - especially if the rest actually is 3,4-MDMA HCl. I don't know how hard it would be to separate the MDPH from the MDMA, but if not very difficult, I'd think it would be of interest for the producer to provide a superior product and sell stuff without MDPH. I don't know what molecule(s) that can't be distinguished from MDMA with GC/MS, but I guess that is what this thread is about. I've previously mentioned that the bad MDMA diminishes the effect of 2C-B (opposite of what the good MDMA does) and since than I've also discovered that 3-FEA does the same. Maybe clues to what the culprit molecule being sold as MDMA actually is?


----------



## indigoaura

Hi Psyloq,

"fuck this cheap shit, where do we get REAL MDMA from?"

LOL - let me know if you figure this one out. 

Sorry your first experience was like that. If you only took 50 mg, it is possible you did not take enough to really cross the threshold. However, if you took 100 mg, you should have had a more pronounced experience than that.

Believe me when I say that you would know if you had truly rolled and felt the magic. It is not something that is unclear or vague. You know it when it happens. If it wasn't one of the best feelings you have ever had in your life, then something was not right.


----------



## psyloq

indigoaura said:


> "fuck this cheap shit, where do we get REAL MDMA from?"
> 
> LOL - let me know if you figure this one out.



I had only read a few posts by Le Junk, mostly the older ones, and found them so awe-inspiring and so easy to understand and believe the various realities he was describing, that I just felt like I had to say something. Didn't help that I was rolling then. Sorry for the noise! 

This thread deserves a bump anyway!


----------



## Hilopsilo

Do we have any reason to believe the usual testing methods would interpret MDPH as MDMA? Or miss the MDPH altogether?

Got a reply to the reddit post i made months ago, I sent them a link to this discussion but in case they don't end up posting here, here is the reply they sent:

_"Thank you so much for this post. We discussed this at length and all 8 of us just believe that these three batched all purchased in 2018 were just somehow corrupted and we are just stumped as to how they appear to Energy Control as MDMA without adulterants but subjectively totally not MDMA as we all know it and objectively very little to almost zero eye dilation with even greater heart-rate increases. Plus, absolutely all the same environments and same people each time and same dose so we are just at a loss to explain it.
_
_Personally, the racemic issue made the most sense as stereo-isomers can produce similar effects to what we felt, and I agree that it makes no sense that people would intentionally go through the trouble to manufacture isomers because it was difficult for Shulgun and others doing research to even get their hands on the isomers to test their effects in isolation. I am comforted by the fact that everything you are saying mirrors our experience so we don't feel crazy. However, do you know of where I can get more information? What is the theory you like best to explain how it could test as pretty pure MDMA (not just with our home kits but also in a professional lab) and just not be right? *After talking with the chemist at the Barcelona lab (energy control), he seemed to believe that there is a possibility that people have found a new/cheaper synthesis that would test as MDMA in their lab but not have the same effects.
*_
_The problem with finding vendors on the dark web is that the reviews are really all about delivery and security in packaging, but not about quality. Anyway, thanks for talking to me as someone who didn't discover this life altering, relationship building experience until later in life, I hate to think I will never be able to experience it again with my closest friends "_


----------



## indigoaura

Hilopsilo, who made that post? What is the context there?

I agree about the DW...all the reviews are about shipping and how the purchase process went. Very few people post about the quality of the product. It is like a restaurant review that only talks about how friendly the waitstaff were and does not mention the food.


----------



## Hilopsilo

It was a reply made to a post I made a while back when i first realized that there is definitely something going on with MDMA, just typed up my experience and test results, get replies/messages from people every now and then still, usually just redirect them to here


----------



## morph76

Yes, that post was me!  Here is a little more about me and the exact message I got from Energy Control in Barcelona when I mailed them my samples of my most recent DW busts.  I completely agree with your analogy...perfect

I am in my early 40s and I had the wonderful pleasure of meeting Alexander (or as he was introduced to me as Sasha) Shulgin in 2012 and through friends I was able to have my first amazing experience with MDMA that was literally life changing. I was so moved and able to come to important realizations about life that have lasted in the years since and I was go grateful to get a chance to have coffee with Dr. Shulgin and thank him for his contribution to my life and his wonderful work before he passed away. Anyway, in the years since I have had one other time I was able to try this again and it was also fantastic and life changing. To make a long story short, I have ordered several times from the dark web to no avail, only to receive product that when tested at home with a kit and then sent to Barcelona lab (Energy Control) who described both batches as 85 and 83 percent MDMA with NO adulterants detected. However, our experiences (controlled environment as usual in a nice place with the same friends etc) were EXACTLY as the person who started this post described a few years ago and as Hilopsilo did as well. We were suspicious when it felt like we were all on meth and our eyes were normal, and the subjective experience was not the MDMA feeling I had the first two times, even though I had carefully tested it at home and sent it off to Energy Control for testing (I am a very careful user of any drug). Everyone agreed who was there that something was wrong and I have since been trying to get to the bottom of the mystery and I have learned a lot in the post that you started about what might be going on here.

This was the last exchange I had with the EC technician:

I retested the samples and they are indeed MDMA with no other active ingredients. Our methods are able to distinguish between MDMA and other substances such as bk-MDMA and MDA, so that possibility is ruled out. That being said, we have received a few sparse reports about unexpected effects from samples that test as MDMA and are currently investigating it. For now it's all speculation, but around internet forums there's a theory is that there is a new synthetic route being used to produce MDMA that has a different enantiomer mix than what was previously being produced. This video offers a good explanation on what enantiomers are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71GjsRnsoL8 


Since R-MDMA and S-MDMA are different optical configurations of the MDMA molecule but have the same chemical structure, they are very difficult to distinguish from one another. Additionally, most synthesis routes for substances with one chiral center yield a 50/50 mix of the two enantiomers. Nevertheless, we have not yet found any synthesis routes that offer benefits (be they economical, improving availability or yield, etc) over currently existing ones. In most cases, it seems to come down to the fact that set and setting can have a profound effect on the effects produced by a substance, to the point that people can feel like the same batch of a substance feels like a completely different drug. If you want, you can research into the effects of R-MDMA, S-MDMA, and different proportions of each to see if it correlates with the difference in effects that you experienced. We're working to implement a way to distinguish the two and find out if there's any substance to the theory, but for now there is no evidence to back it and very few reports regarding this discrepancy, so it has been hard to get good data. Fortunately, R-MDMA and S-MDMA appear to share the same safety profile as racemic MDMA, as in the end they are the same substance. 


Let me know if there's anything we can help with.


Kind Regards,
AT

They were great and even listened to my long story and retested each sample twice at my instance that the experience didn't match the test results. I am simply not yet willing to chalk it up to "lost magic" as I just don't want that to be true.  

Thanks for this great forum, at least I think I have enough evidence to suggest there is hope for me to find the real stuff again....


----------



## Glubrahnum

morph76 said:


> *This was the last exchange I had with the EC technician:
> *
> "I retested the samples and they are indeed MDMA with no other active ingredients. Our methods are able to distinguish between MDMA and other substances such as bk-MDMA and MDA, so that possibility is ruled out."


This is supposed to be a complete professional analysis ?!

1) No info whether it was 2,3-MDMA or 3,4-MDMA
2) No info about the enantiomer ratio
3) No info about the salt type (hydrochloride, tartrate, etc...)
4) No info about the detection thresholds of potent adulterants such as synthetic opioids
5) No info about excipients and percentage of purity in the sample's mass.
6) No info about crystalline morphology nor polymorphism.

...and last but not least: No info how well their analytical methods can distinguish *isobaries of MDMA*.  
Distinguishing isobaries is not as easy as distinguishing MDMA from bk-MDMA or from MDA, because isobaries have the same molar mass and the same molecular formula ...while MDA and bk-MDMA *do not* !

P.S.
To those that just joined this thread:
The "loss of magic" cannot always be attributed to tolerance because I have conducted experiments with the bad "MDMA" on multiple VIRGIN SUBJECTS that could not have had any tolerance. 
You can read the results of this experiment in *Post #401*

Note, that there was no *Mydriasis* in Virgin Subjects after high doses of this bad "MDMA" -  *you cannot ignore this * for Pete's sake !


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Glubrahnum said:


> The "loss of magic" cannot always be attributed to tolerance because I have conducted experiments with the bad "MDMA" on multiple VIRGIN SUBJECTS that could not have had any tolerance.
> You can read the results of this experiment in *Post #401*



You gave shit drugs to people and they had a shit time. Baffling!

Had you tested that MDMA for any one of the six points which you state are crucial for a complete professional analysis?

If not, I'll direct you back to the aforementioned sentiment: Shit drugs, shit party, shit time.

Everytime I had MDMA in groups, pupil dilation was variable from person to person. My eyes always lit up like a Ferris wheel at Christmas time, others looked almost normal. It means very little about the quality of the MDMA in my opinion.


----------



## indigoaura

Not impressed with this response from Energy Control. I am doubting whether to spend so much $ to send them my samples. But Edata in the US is equally as incomplete in their analysis.

I tried to email Energy Control to start a discourse about all this, but they never got back to me. When they say, "very few reports regarding this discrepancy," how can they really know that? People are sending them samples for a reason. Very possibly, that reason is that the sample did not "feel right."

It reminds me of how you go to a doctor and try to report a side effect to a medicine and the doc says, "That is not possible. That is not a listed side effect." Well, shit. If everyone tells you it is not possible and it is not listed, then how does it ever become a listed side effect?

Also, Kaden, not sure why you are attacking Glubra. He is not a company that is providing professional analysis to users in exchange for large sums of money. He is just a person who observed some virgin ecstasy users. No virgin user I EVER saw had a lame time on real MDMA. So, if the tests are saying it is MDMA and four virgin users are having a shit time without the expected "classic" signs of intoxication, then there is a serious in-discrepancy occurring.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

indigoaura said:


> Also, Kaden, not sure why you are attacking Glubra.



I'm certainly not. I just don't believe that there is anything surprising about an anecdotal report of people taking low-quality drugs and experiencing low-quality effects.



> If the tests are saying it is MDMA



Which test was used though? The lab that sends you an email saying: "I don't fucking know" when you ask them to elaborate on impurities, or the six point criteria involving isobars, isomers, polymers etc, which is loony even by my standards.

Maybe simplify your approach? Test melting points, try A/B extraction and distillation. Send the impurities for testing rather than the contaminated MDMA.

Impure drugs. I'm sure that's the issue you're having; dirty, impure product.

The possibility of some new composition or crystal structure disguising itself flawlessly as MDMA is unlikely even as a novelty product. For such a product to be a widespread phenomena, I consider conspiracy theory.


----------



## indigoaura

Kaden, have you been following this whole thread? One reason why we are looking at the idea of an "imitator" more seriously is that a recent more advanced raman analysis revealed MDPH as a significant portion of the tested product. MDPH has the same molar mass as MDMA and may not show up with a lab like EC. We have absolutely been looking at impurities etc. throughout this discussion.


----------



## indigoaura

Morph, how long have you been using MDMA? How many times?


----------



## morph76

Maybe six times from 2012 until 2015 and then I have not had any good experiences buying (three different purchases since 2015 have been a bust---even though all tested with EC as MDMA, no adulterants--and Glubrahnum has noted that is ALL the information I received about them after over 300 dollars of testing expenses, a little over one hundred for each sample---but to be honest I wouldn't have known what to ask to get that information at the time---wish I knew you then . 

After three buys since 2015 and all experiences with them were anywhere from fairly unpleasant to meh (maybe tried each one twice and had friends volunteer to try who also report terrible to meh experiences). I tried to learn as much as I could on the internet to see if I should just give up forever of having those 2012 to 2015 experiences again from the first batch. Found your thread and it has sparked my interest in trying again to find the old day stuff.

In my research before talking to you, I found these if anyone here is interested.  

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/adsarchive/isomers.htm



http://countyourculture.com/2011/05/23/mirrored-magic-mdma/


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I think it is now beyond reasonable doubt that there is definitely 'something up' with the majority of so called MDMA available today. As an 'old timer' who was lucky enough to experience the proper stuff in its heyday, I've only found the good shit once since I got back in the saddle around 2014 - and it's not for the want of trying...


----------



## G_Chem

In Glubra?s defense, he isn?t an lab analyzing drugs at a cost, he?s just a guy doing his part to come to an answer.  He did check the sample he gave to others via some analysis technique I can?t remember at the moment and at the time he had just began to enter this conversation.

I agree too that this is likely impurities but what impurities..  It seems we?ve done circles quite a few times, so we should slow down until we can find more about MDPH.  While I?d agree it?s the best lead so far, I don?t wanna get ahead of ourselves.

We need to strategize a way to help determine if the sample contains MDPH or not.  Reagents being our best bet.  Glubra, you did say this most recent batch went straight black right? Was this the MDPH batch?

As for testing product that is known to be good..  I have plenty I could send in but one batch in particular I KNOW is as legit as it gets.  I?ve had this stuff for at least 5yrs, and had one of my strongest rolls ever on it (note I had been taking MDXX for 7-8yrs at this point too!) and everyone who tried it talked up and down how it was the best they?d tried.  It has changed a bit however, used to be clear/slightly opaque crystals and now they seem slightly more cloudy than before.  The only reason I still have some is because I lost a few .1g until recently.  I?ve also got a few good batches of known safrole MDMA.

If we ever find a lab that can tell us anything I?d be happy to send some in, if someone can cover the tab lol.  I?m poor AF.  Hilo?s lab is currently our best bet with percentages and more common impurities being listed.

Gotta go, more later,

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Hilo's lab never confirmed they would take mailed samples, right?

I feel stuck as well. I have three sub-par samples I would love to see a detailed analysis of. Together with GC's "good" sample, we might be able to gain understanding of what is going on if we could just get reports on all of them.

And Morph...I seriously doubt that 6 uses would lead to any reduction in effects. Most of us went strong with excellent effects for many years. As I said earlier in the thread, my experience only changed when my supplier changed.


----------



## morph76

Thanks Indigoaura. To be fair, it was 12 times in 7 years (six times with the good sample and six more times trying to find the good sample again) but I think after reading more and more of this post, I would qualify as someone who is relatively inexperienced. But I do know that I now have three samples I could contribute and would happily send samples to some laboratory that could contribute something to this project (I certainly have no interest in consuming from those batches anymore). As you know, I tried Energy Control and it really didn't help to explain the massive subjective differences.


----------



## indigoaura

I am seeing reports online that you can build a spectrometer for your smart phone. GC and Glubra...any thoughts on this? Would it work?


----------



## indigoaura

Or this: https://publiclab.org/wiki/dsk

Instead of sending samples anywhere, could we all build these and then share results with Glubra?


----------



## indigoaura

Looking like that is not the type off spectrometer we need, but I am just trying to think of all options. Seriously, if I could buy the right kind of equipment for a reasonable price and just analyze my own samples, I would. 

(Also, I am seeing listings on the DW saying to dose at 300 mg. CLEARLY this is not MDMA if you need 300 mg to get an effect. Ridiculous.)


----------



## Hilopsilo

I can try shooting them an email or going in and asking them, just haven't had time lately and it is in the most undesirable part of town. I imagine they'd be weary of taking samples coming through international mail.

Ideally, we should try and keep track/a record of who has samples of what, I personally have a sample of really good stuff and a sample of stuff that is most definitely not good and maybe I can pitch the idea to them, they're pretty interested in all this so they may be down for it afterall.

I can't imagine a smartphone spectrometer would pick something up that these labs are not.


----------



## indigoaura

Let's all just meet at Glubra's place.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

indigoaura said:


> Kaden, have you been following this whole thread?



Yes Indigo. I have read the thread. The thread has been read and is in my head.



> One reason why we are looking at the idea of an "imitator" more seriously is that a recent more advanced raman analysis revealed MDPH ..



Yeah, that is interesting. I don't believe that it could be passed off as MDMA or remain undetected though, not on any kind of mass scale. Very similar design, but different chemical properties AFAIK.


----------



## indigoaura

I guess one way to know for sure if conventional harm reduction labs will detect the MDPH would be to send that sample to Ecstasy Data and see what they detect. Do you still have it, Glubra?


----------



## Hilopsilo

I think the most methodical way of looking at this would find out the specific details of the testing processes/techniques that these large testing centers use and parse out what they can and cannot detect. And anything that they *can* detect should be thrown out as a hypothesis. To my understanding a lot of processes *can* detect things but only if they are specifically looking for them. 

Or yeah as indigo says, send in a sample containing ____ and see if they catch it. Hell, if for whatever reason that is the case, some other imposter, maybe the creators of it sent samples in to figure out what would go under the radar. Or, perhaps the creators aren't even aware its any different.

On another note, I sent an email to Energy Control and Ecstasy Data asking whether or not they use deriviatized or underivatized GCMS so we can figure out if this is just a dead end or not.


----------



## G_Chem

Haha mdma analysis slumber party!!

I agree with the idea of possibly sending in the MDMA/MDPH sample if there?s any left...  That would tell us if this is something that could be fooling large portions of the world or not.

Also note I?m not no expert on GCMS and frankly don?t know much about it but.. I looked up difference between deriviatized and non-deriviatized and it seems they do a chemical reaction to make said sample easier to analyze.  Based on what I?m reading though, it?d appear to me that this technique wouldn?t make detection of something like MDPH any easier.  Or am I wrong?

Really appreciate you guys asking and looking around.  (Hilo and Indigo)

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

So I think I found out why MDA is non-existent in Europe and places supplied by Europe VS places in the US (like where I?ve lived) that has tons of it..

God it?s been awhile but I recall Biscuit posting up some data (from Australia confiscations?) showing reductive amination these days to be mainly PT/C hydrogenation.  I was just doing some casual reading at the Hive and saw this..

(Rhodium) ??It seems like a much higher catalyst load is needed when MDA is synthesized, compared to MDMA. When MDMA is the desired product, the catalyst load is a lot less.??

This was in reference to PD/C but it likely applies all the same.  What this means in layman?s terms,  MDA requires a lot more expensive metal catalyst (platinum or palladium respectively) that MDMA doesn?t need nearly as much of.  When we are talking kilos worth of product, it?s just not worth the cost to them even with MDA being more potent and desired by many.

My guess is that chemists over in North America use older routes, some of which are easier to produce MDA with.  Maybe the ketoxime route via Al/Hg and hydroxylamine?..

Ah it?s bugged me for years trying to find that answer..  It also indicates that there is different reductive aminations being used and it?s not all platinum hydrogenation, this may help narrow in on our final answer.

I?m starting to wonder if it?s not so much about the starting precursor as it is the final amination?  Questions..

-GC


----------



## Biscuit

^ I agree this could be a relevant factor. The reductive amination technique common before the change to Platinum Hydrogenation was reduction with a Borohydride. 

Whilst I cannot speak for the ?user? laboratories, the fact is I have never seen MDPH or other such substances reported by a Government Forensic Laboratory in the state in Australia that I am from. I have however seen MD-P2P coming up as an impurity from time to time. 

In my country at least, a person cannot be prosecuted for possessing MDMA if that person does not have MDMA, and it is not good enough to say that the GCMS machine being used is saying that a substance is MDMA even though it really is MDPH or 2,3-MDMA or whatever. However, that is not to say such a chemical is not present with the MDMA which is reported on, but I do not see it being common enough to account for our current issue. 

What is interesting about MDPH though is that if when PMK-glycidate is hydrolysed different products might possibly eventuate, then it could be possible that a substance such as MDPH might be produced and still be surviving come the end of the manufacturing process?

For me, the simultaneous change from non-enantimoeric safrole produced MD-P2P precursor and sodium borohydride/cyanoborohydride reducing agent on the one hand to enantiomeric MD-P2P glycidate pre-precursor and platinum catalyst hydrogenation reducing agent on the other, during the PRECISE YEAR when MDMA commonly found in Europe/UK and Australia in particular went to shit, cannot be ignored and must surely be the source of the problem. What changes they have resulted in and why this occurs, is what for me remain the unanswered questions.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Kaden_Nite said:


> You gave shit drugs to people and they had a shit time. Baffling!


I was not the supplier - just an observer and an in-house tester. I never offered an exhaustive and professional testing service to these users. The testing centers, do.



Kaden_Nite said:


> Had you tested that MDMA for any one of the six points which you state are crucial for a complete professional analysis?


No, but I am capable of doing this in a different venue than somebody else's house party
I never offered an exhaustive testing service to these users, only an in-house immunoassay testing - which is more selective than reagent testing.



Kaden_Nite said:


> If not, I'll direct you back to the aforementioned sentiment: Shit drugs, shit party, shit time.


But you are missing the point. 
Why was this drug "shit" in the first place? ...and why are so many users of the forum familiar with this "shit" experience after a certain date.
The virginity of the users dispels any debunking thru drug tolerance and the lack of Mydriasis in all these users cannot be discounted, either.



Kaden_Nite said:


> Everytime I had MDMA in groups, pupil dilation was variable from person to person. My eyes always lit up like a Ferris wheel at Christmas time, others looked almost normal. It means very little about the quality of the MDMA in my opinion.


Mydriasis is mediated by Norepinephrine and is very dose dependent. The sensitivity to Norepinephrine is not that individually variable and the drug doses were not that low ...and lately they are not low at all, if you'd noticed. 
I even posted a dose vs. year graph in this thread before, which is another piece of the puzzle.
Over the years, the mortality increased with the doses, too.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> I am seeing reports online that you can build a spectrometer for your smart phone. GC and Glubra...any thoughts on this? Would it work?


Yes, you can build a Raman spectrometer with a good camera, but you must be technically savvy and invest a little in a clean laser, optical filter, splitter and a diffraction grating.  

See this video to see how a Raman spectrum is taken at home:
https://youtu.be/tRrOdKW06sk
or
https://youtu.be/Rjk55FZBPKk


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> Glubra, you did say this most recent batch went straight black right?


Yes.



G_Chem said:


> Was this the MDPH batch?


Yes



G_Chem said:


> I agree with the idea of possibly sending in the MDMA/MDPH sample if there?s any left...  That would tell us if this is something that could be fooling large portions of the world or not.


Yes, there are 5mg left. Would it be enough for them?
Anyway, I would be ambivalent giving money to people that would not even tell me what salt it was and who do not even list the full IUPAC name of the detected compound... but if I encounter MDPH several times more - I will invest my money to send an MDPH containing sample just to see if that testing service is scamming its clients.



G_Chem said:


> Also note I?m not no expert on GCMS and frankly don?t know much about it but.. I looked up difference between deriviatized and non-deriviatized and it seems they do a chemical reaction to make said sample easier to analyze.


That's right and doing a chemical reaction costs time and money so some cost-saving labs might be tempted to skip it.



G_Chem said:


> Based on what I?m reading though, it?d appear to me that this technique wouldn't make detection of something like MDPH any easier.  Or am I wrong?


Wrong, because some chemical reactions are selective to the position of functional groups (e.g. methyl groups), so after such reaction an isobary will react more/less and that will be detected at the GC or MS stage.

The same technique can be used to distinguish enantiomers without expensive chiral GC columns.  You simply react the sample with a chiral base or acid (e.g. L-Tartaric Acid) which binds only to its chiral conjugate and then even a chirally-blind Mass Spectrometer (MS) can distinguish the enantiomer ratio because the additional mass of the L-Tartaric Acid, that has bonded, is hard to miss.

With Raman spectroscopy, detecting different enantiomers is much less involved because it only requires using polarized light and some polarizing filters like this:
https://youtu.be/FVprjCPEOHU


----------



## G_Chem

5mg would be cutting it close, I agree it?d be wise to just hang onto this one and wait to see if you find any more..  Plus you have a good point, you could be spending a lot of money for less info than you can find out yourself.  The only benefit would come from knowing whether THEY can identify if or not..

Thanks for the replies though Glubra, and of course your continued dedication to the topic at hand.

And Biscuit, that makes perfect sense as cyano/borohydride reduction doesn?t seem to suffer from the same issue.  Do you remember MDA vanishing after the drought too? It seems like it from what I?ve read.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> 5mg would be cutting it close, I agree it?d be wise to just hang onto this one and wait to see if you find any more..  Plus you have a good point, you could be spending a lot of money for less info than you can find out yourself.  *The only benefit would come from knowing whether THEY can identify if or not..*
> 
> Thanks for the replies though Glubra, and of course your continued dedication to the topic at hand.
> 
> And Biscuit, that makes perfect sense as cyano/borohydride reduction doesn?t seem to suffer from the same issue.  Do you remember MDA vanishing after the drought too? It seems like it from what I?ve read.
> 
> -GC



That to me seems like one of our main objectives at this point, it would confirm a lot. Not to mention the opportunity to inform them that they missed it, I think that'd certainly get their attention on this issue.

Agreed though 5mg isn't enough i dont think


----------



## Hilopsilo

Woah, so I was randomly browsing other forums on here, checked out the "whats in your drug stash thread" and user Ignio posted this picture of their MDMA:






Now THAT is the closest thing I've seen to what the MagicDMA I had looked like, especially the upper part that is almost transparent. Out of thousands of "listings" I've browsed, NONE look even remotely like this...


----------



## G_Chem

^^Yup that?s the type of product I aim to buy, usually like every third or fourth time I buy it?s product of this caliber.

I could post a few pics if I can figure it out, I?m not tech savvy but I?ve got a few batches that are nearly identical or close.

The nearly clear crystal with some well defined sides/edges and no smell (or maybe the faintest safrole smell upon cracking open the crystal.)

The thing is, even the above isn?t a true crystal as I?m sure most of you know.  It?s a fused crystal like everything else on the market, but you can tell it?s purity because as it solidifies it still produces fairly defined sides and edges.  This is what I look for when judging a batch because the really pure product will have some edges that clearly show (more often) the orthorhombic lattice formation.

Good picture though, makes me wanna look for my camera.

One final note, I?ve noticed even with apparently really pure clear, scentless batches that the rocks/crystals can form slightly different.  There?s two general categories I?ve seen, one that?s more chunk like (like above) and one that?s a little rippled/rough with lots of cracks throughout.  I seemingly prefer the latter but they both seem ?good.?  If I get up some pictures I can better illustrate that.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I have never seen any product that looked even remotely like that.


----------



## Hilopsilo

At the end of the day appearance doesn't amount to much evidence of anything, but it does seem rare to find it in that form. I remember my friend showing me with the MagicDMA you can hold a piece up to your eye and see right through it. 

Yeah G-Chem, its like a different crystal than the bunched up stuff that looks like a lot of smaller crystals together. I'd be willing to bet the stuff shown in that picture has no smell. The rarity of this scentless full crystal clear MDMA must mean something about how its made.

I imagine whats in the picture is quite good considering the rest of that poster's drug stash


----------



## Xorkoth

There are a great many drugs that are clear crystals when they're crystallized.  Still it does indicate a relative lack of impurity, whatever it is.


----------



## Goodwalt

How does good mdma should test on marquis? Purple? If it goes straight to Black then its no good?


----------



## G_Chem

I?d argue appearance can mean something if your quite familiar with crystals.  I personally have somewhat of a fascination with drugs in crystalline form and have made it a goal to see crystals most others haven?t seen. 

While yes for most appearance means little I believe for those with a trained eye it can tell us something.

For instance, meth, mdma and DMT all can produce clear crystals..  But I could likely tell them apart by eye even with their various polymorphs.

But I tend to just tell others what you guys have just said as it?s better for people to rely on their reagent reactions.  I could see how some may get the perception that they can judge a drug purely by eye.  For anyone reading this!! ALWAYS USE REAGENTS.

Got a snow day so I?m hunting for the camera.

-GC


----------



## epic11

I had 2 batches of md, 1 based on safrole, and 1 your standard pure dutch imported. Will be running tests and getting thoughts in the coming months. Stay posted.

This safrole vs pmk dutch mass produced is the issue I BELIEVE my own personal experience. (safrole had me loved tf up with the other lacking that in a big way) However im gathering more on the issue. Ive never abused mdma, yet i notice a difference as well between batches.


----------



## Hilopsilo

epic11 said:


> I had 2 batches of md, 1 based on safrole, and 1 your standard pure dutch imported. Will be running tests and getting thoughts in the coming months. Stay posted.
> 
> This safrole vs pmk dutch mass produced is the issue I BELIEVE my own personal experience. (safrole had me loved tf up with the other lacking that in a big way) However im gathering more on the issue. Ive never abused mdma, yet i notice a difference as well between batches.



So you have access to both? Would be interesting to try a blind test somehow. As well, do they look different in their form? color, texture, etc.

I just really really want to remove any bias towards safrole simply due to it being the traditional precursor made in smaller batches as opposed to mass produced PMK stuff, I think there is definitely possibility of romanticizing safrole as the one true precursor.


----------



## Bethical

Le Junk said:


> Trust me, they're completely different.  My proof is simply these two samples I have right here in front of me.  I have my white crystalline powder and red Supreme tabs.  The red Supremes were ecstasydata lab tested as pure MDMA and were sent in by, how do I say this, someone that I know.  I myself have done both and can tell you that to even try and compare the two would be insulting to the powder.  Plain and simple, the red Supremes are unenjoyable and the white powder is nothing short of heavenly.
> 
> Example # 2.  My neighbor, who's never done ecstasy in her life, was talked into doing the red Supremes by me when I was out of the powder.  Afterwards, she said she would never do ecstasy again.  She said it was nothing like I described it and it showed.  She wasn't loved up, she was very introverted, she spent most of the night either puking or laying on the sofa.  The next day she said she felt cracked out.
> 
> After a couple months, I was able to talk her into trying the powder with me.  We were in the same exact setting as the time before.  My place.  This time she was in love, she was telling me things she'd never told anyone before, she couldn't stop rubbing on me, she must have told me she loved me 50 times, she said if the whole world was on this there would be no wars, we made love all night and the next day we went out to breakfast and came back home and continued making love.
> 
> They are not the same.  I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot.  People keep talking about setting etc.  That's the bullshit.  If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.
> 
> Le Junk
> 
> P.S. The difference is in the isomers.



In the example you describe, your presumptions about the quality of the respective samples going into it could have easily effected her experience and therefore her response.  It's been shown over and over again that a person who subconsciously expects or wants a certain outcome from an experiment will do things that subtly influence the test subject(s) and the test parameters.  That's why the gold standard in science requires controlled experiments to be double-blind.


----------



## shezinphx

*

They are not the same. I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot. People keep talking about setting etc. That's the bullshit. If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.*

Right! It doesn't matter where you are! If the pills are good they are going to be good regardless of setting. I think a lot of people who have never experienced super pure MDMA won't get that until they actually do.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

shezinphx said:


> *
> 
> They are not the same. I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot. People keep talking about setting etc. That's the bullshit. If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.*
> 
> Right! It doesn't matter where you are! If the pills are good they are going to be good regardless of setting. I think a lot of people who have never experienced super pure MDMA won't get that until they actually do.



This is the truth...


----------



## EntheoDjinn

1000% is exactly the same 100,000% or even 1,000,000%, so must be the super-truth!


----------



## Chonciceptor

I agree, setting does not matter when the stuff is legit. Also, I?ve had product from the DW that looked exactly like the clear rocks pictured above, and it was absolute shit! Just my 2 cents lol.


----------



## Brnoxoxo

Chonciceptor said:


> I agree, setting does not matter when the stuff is legit. Also, I?ve had product from the DW that looked exactly like the clear rocks pictured above, and it was absolute shit! Just my 2 cents lol.



Was it tested? Also I don't know what people mean by "shit" sometimes.


----------



## psy997

Brnoxoxo said:


> Also I don't know what people mean by "shit" sometimes.



No/low empathy, no/low love, no/low desire to connect, no/low energy, premature and instant comedown, propensity for negativity and meh-ness, etc.

All the MDMA I've had since late 2015 has been varying combinations of these. Some experiences better than others, almost to what I know it can be, others pretty fucking worthless. At this point, I trust 6-APB more and feel more empathy with it than the "MDMA" I have had access to.

Ah scratch that, I had amazing stuff spring of 2017, which was found in Idaho. Besides that, everything else has been shit to meh.


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> So you have access to both? Would be interesting to try a blind test somehow. As well, do they look different in their form? color, texture, etc.
> 
> I just really really want to remove any bias towards safrole simply due to it being the traditional precursor made in smaller batches as opposed to mass produced PMK stuff, I think there is definitely possibility of romanticizing safrole as the one true precursor.



Yes i do, however the saffrole did not come to fruition this time. Now, I do have 2 separate batches of md im testing with at this time. First tests happened recently with 125mg of 84% pure DUTCH (the stuff in question id assume) and 125 mg was "Not enough"of an initial dose with my tester. Why would that be? 120 of saffrole based IMO will kick your ass. Why does 125 of this dutch stuff not seem like enough?


----------



## Le Junk

epic11 said:


> Yes i do, however the saffrole did not come to fruition this time. Now, I do have 2 separate batches of md im testing with at this time. First tests happened recently with 125mg of 84% pure DUTCH (the stuff in question id assume) and 125 mg was "Not enough"of an initial dose with my tester. Why would that be? 120 of saffrole based IMO will kick your ass. Why does 125 of this dutch stuff not seem like enough?



Great question!  Thats why all of these Dutch pills are excessively high milligrams.  Theyre having to make up for something thats missing.  120 mgs of Dutch MDMA isnt enough to make it happen.  Its all part of the missing link.


----------



## indigoaura

Yeah, I have even gone up to 135 mg of the stuff I have access to and it is not enough. It does not put you over the thresh-hold to where you need to be, and neither does a re-dose.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, shezinphx, I agree. Quality MDMA makes you feel amazing nomatter what is going on or where you are. I recall one year being on the verge of breaking up with my partner at that time, and not even wanting to go out, but ending up at this NYE party where I ended up having a blast due to quality MDMA. I could not have gone into it with a worse mindframe or mood, but once it hit, everything was oh so fine.


----------



## Le Junk

indigoaura said:


> Also, shezinphx, I agree. Quality MDMA makes you feel amazing nomatter what is going on or where you are. I recall one year being on the verge of breaking up with my partner at that time, and not even wanting to go out, but ending up at this NYE party where I ended up having a blast due to quality MDMA. I could not have gone into it with a worse mindframe or mood, but once it hit, everything was oh so fine.



Exactly!  That would not have been the same outcome with todays MDMA.  You would have just ended up more irritated than you were to begin with.


----------



## Le Junk

indigoaura said:


> Also, shezinphx, I agree. Quality MDMA makes you feel amazing nomatter what is going on or where you are. I recall one year being on the verge of breaking up with my partner at that time, and not even wanting to go out, but ending up at this NYE party where I ended up having a blast due to quality MDMA. I could not have gone into it with a worse mindframe or mood, but once it hit, everything was oh so fine.



Also, remember touch and feel with old school MDMA?  Tongue kissing, sex, rubbing etc was so intensified!  It was 1000 fold over normal touch and feel.  I dont get any of that with the new MDMA.  None.


----------



## CFC

Nice to see you around posting Le Junk, hope you're doing well


----------



## Don pitote

Is there any way to avoid getting bad E? 
I've only done mdma 3 times and have the same opinion of Teslas and supremes as OP. The one good high I did have had was a G6 winnie the pooh and it was only a little more than half the pill which is only around 200mg but i took the entire tesla and supreme which were both a lot more and I didn't feel nearly as good.


----------



## Le Junk

CFC said:


> Nice to see you around posting Le Junk, hope you're doing well



Thank you CFC.  Im alive and kicking.  Barely.


----------



## babooon87

With this new mdma it feels as if the dopamine component of the roll is missing. The comeup is the same as a high dose of proper mdma ( intense, uncomfortable, anxious, nauseating, feeling cold, shaky etc ) but with good mdma this stage only lasts about 10-15 min after which you get the dopamine kick and you start rolling and feel awesome. 

   With the new stuff it is like you stay stuck in that comeup state for 1-2 hours and it never really settles and becomes comfortable or euphoric. The huge dose they put in those pills makes this comeup feeling very very intense and you feel like " oh my god... i'm going to roll sooo hard !  " but you never do. The comeup just goes on and on and on. When it finally settles and you stop feeling like shit you are already coming down. 

   I have tested the dopamine theory by taking methamphetamine on top of one of these new rolls and like I expected the experience felt much more like a real roll. 

   So yeah, I am also of the opinion that the more " psychedelic " isomer is favored in that synthesis over the " stimulant " one or something else about it inhibits dopamine from being released like it should. It has always been a consensus that dopamine play an important role in the mdma magic as similar compounds that are devoid of dopamine activity like mbdb or mdai are reported as lacking and even dysphoric. 

   I also did the comparison as I recently had the chance to get legit saffrole smelling old school mdma as well as the new stuff from another contact and the difference was like night and day. The saffrole stuff felt great, smooth, euphoric, empathetic, social. I had completely forgotten how good mdma is supposed to feel like. I had swore off this drug for a few years now because it just did not feel that good anymore. I thought the problem was in my own chemistry which seemed pretty odd because I never came close to abusing the stuff. The experience just changed overnight around 2010. Tried it again after 3-4 years of abstinence and it still wasnt any better. I had come to the conclusion that I just didnt enjoy rolling anymore because I'm too old for this shit. I was wrong and it turns out it's the drug that changed and not my brain. 

   I also noticed like most people that my pupils hardly dilate with the new material. Again, I thought it was my personal chemistry that changed because I remembered having HUGE pupils when the rolls were good before 2010. In fact, when I took the good stuff a month ago my pupils dilated once again. I also get no eye wiggles with the new synth which is one of the effects I always had very strongly and consistently. 

   I think we are starting to have more than enough anecdotal reports describing the exact same experience to keep dismissing it as being nostalgia, tolerance and expectations playing with our heads. I also talked with a younger coworker that started using mdma in the last few years and he keeps telling me how he has difficult comedowns immediately after the experience from as little as one 100 mg cap. This is not normal, especially with that low of a dose. You never get a comedown immediately after or even the day after with good mdma. In fact, you feel great and in a good mood the day after and when you do get a comedown it  is because you took a very large amount and it comes 2-3 days later. 

Hope we get to the bottom of this somehow. Interesting discussion to say the least.


----------



## indigoaura

Le Junk, good to see you again!


> Also, remember touch and feel with old school MDMA? Tongue kissing, sex, rubbing etc was so intensified! It was 1000 fold over normal touch and feel. I dont get any of that with the new MDMA. None.



Yes, this, 100%. In fact, at that NYE party I mentioned, I walked in wanting to break up with my partner and feeling super upset and pissed, but ended up in an orgy with some other friends before the night was over. That's how it went back then. From feeling like shit to group sex from a pill. Everything sensory was better. There was a reason I used to bring little velvet stuffed animals with me to parties, or slinkys, or silk robes. It felt good to touch things in general. That component is 100% lacking in the newer stuff.

Baboon87, thanks for the great post. You hit on many of the same main points we have all been discussing for some time. You are right, there is more than enough anecdotal evidence here. I also think you are right to think about the dopamine element being a factor. I agree that it feels like you get stuck somewhere before the peak kicks in. For me, the comeup is different than before, not as intense, but it never crosses the threshold into full ROLLING.


----------



## babooon87

By the way I find the bad stuff to have less of a comedown than the good. I do feel scattered and kind of weird immediately after but I feel no after effects the days after. This doesn't come as a surprise because the high does not feel euphoric enough to cause significant neurotransmitter depletion. What people describe as "LTC" (had never heard that term before reading this thread) is more in line with the massive depletion following serious abuse of the good stuff imo.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0028390817304707?via=ihub

" High doses of R-MDMA do not produce hyperthermia or signs of neurotoxicity in mice."
" Lower dopamine release may explain why R-MDMA lacks these adverse effects of SR-MDMA."

This info seems to support what I just described about the lesser comedown and tha lack of depamine. I believe the isomer theory more than any other. I don't buy that impurities can change the effects to that extent.


----------



## G_Chem

Impurities can and do change the nature of the experience.  Whether it?s the issue or not is hard to know, but I?d argue there is more evidence to support impurities over isomer ratios.

The R Isomer wouldn?t be causing all these cases of LTC popping up, I?d assume.  It?s not shorter acting like the new stuff.  It would provide an afterglow, this new stuff doesn?t.

The R-isomer doesn?t fully fit the profile.

People have found good results from purifying their crap MDMA too, further adding to the impurities theory.

I?ll keep an open mind on it but my money is still on impurities.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

In my experience, although the meh-DMA does not produce the depression or "suicide Tuesday" feeling of old MDMA, it does produce physical side effects that traditional MDMA does not. In particular, I experience stomach upset, nausea, indigestion, and dizziness. These were never issues for me before, even when taking high doses of MDMA in the past (5 pills in a night).

Right now, just based on everything we have talked about so far, I think there is something else in the product that is making me sick and also blocking the action of the MDMA.


----------



## babooon87

Yes I agree it has way more side effects during the buzz. Some kind of dirty/toxic feeling.


----------



## indigoaura

Babooon87, would you also agree that old MDMA tended towards creating feelings of heat, but this new stuff does the opposite? I always found myself shedding clothes with the old stuff, because I got so hot. With this new stuff, I am piling on blankets and sweat shirts, because I am cold.


----------



## babooon87

I 100 % agree with the cold feeling and it's very irritating. Had to go hide under my blankets as I was freezing from a large dose once. I also doesnt really make me sweat much compared to legit stuff that has always left me completely drenched in sweat every time. 

And sorry if I jumped on the isomer theory and dismssed the impurities. In all honesty, I had not completely read all the thread before writing my first post. Now that I read it all a few of the comments stroke a cord with me and had me thinking quite a bit. 

1- someone has exposed the unlikely scenario that the bad mdma is tainted with another compound present in the low microgram range and could pass undetected on most comment lab tests. 

Someone talked about super potent Fentanyl analogues but it was quickly dismissed. While l also think it is unlikely, we have seen so much drugs being cut more and more with these super potent opioids in recent years with some areas way more plagued by this practice than others. And it is not just opioids they cut with it but also cocaine and speed and why the hell not mdma when you think about it. And to say it is unlikely because it never showed up in tested samples maybe pnly proves they are putting undetectable amounts.

OR traces get in there because it is prepared in the same lab or just the chinese labs from which the precursors are obtained (the fentanyl like drugs are also being made mostly from chinese labs so I don't know. The presence of an opioid could explain the small pupils as these drugs shrink them to needle size and from my experience as an opioid addict for many years I can tell you that the pupil constriction of the opioid amost always win when mixed with a compound that causes dilation. It could also explain the sleepiness\mongy effect. In my experience also, taking an opioid with mdma tends to dull the experience and make the experience kind of boring and devoid of the magic feeling of empathy ( opioids numb emotions and that's precisely why they are popular. It could also explain the nausea and general gut issues. With that in mind could the LTC people are talking about simply a case of mild opioid withdrawal? Again that theory is unlikely but we never know...

2- there was also talk of MDPH as an impurity after it was found in active quantities in a sample tested. That I think is maybe the closest thing we have to a possible explanation. This is from wiki :

" the dosage range is listed as 160?240 mg, and the duration as 3?5 hours.[1] MDPH's effects are very similar to those of MDA: they both are smooth and "stoning," and do not cause any visuals. "

Stoning effects like MDA without the visuals fits the profile of this bad MDMA. The duration and dosage also fit with how people describe their experience (This dosage would make sense if some of this MDMA contains exclusively MDPH. Why not ? Producers would sure be happy campers in finding out an other drug that has mdma'ish effecrs AND tests exactly the same way in most labs. wouldnt that be the ultimate Holy grail for unscrupulous black market producers ? 

After all, they have been " plagued " with drug testing being more and more common so they can't throw pipes or some other RC just to have their client base burnt after a week because someone in the area sent their product to test with the results displayed to the public. I mean who will want to consume a batch that looks exactly like what they have in thr dame area but comes out on e-data as : TFMPP mixed with caffeine and some mephedrone analog. 

The pratice of drug testing started gaining in popularity a few years before the whole phenomenon described in this thread started to occur. Have they been actively searching for a compound they could use to cut or replace mdma but fool the lab analysis completely and finally found the perfect candidate ? It would not be that far fetched knowing they use levamisole tu cut cocaine at the source because it has similar chemical behavior as coke so when people freebase their cocaine it all goes along with it and people are fooled in thinking they have very pure coke since the amount left after the freebasing is so high. Anyway I will see if I can dig up more info about this MDPH.

this part also caught my attention:

" Shulgin describes MDPH as a promoter; it promotes the effects of other drugs, similarly to 2C-D. " It's funny I was just thinking today that this new mdma is only enjoyable when mixed with other drugs because it potentiates them like crazy without doing anything interesting on it's own. " I also said to myself before I had read anything about MDPH a few pages back in this thread : " It has this pharmaceutical tofu effect Shulgin was talking about when describing 2C-D. Anyway I have to go to sleep it is 5 am here and I have work in a few hours. This thread is so fascinating I lost quite a bit of sleep in the past week just reading the posts and thinking about it.

Edit - I also cannot help but consider a conspiracy theory and MAPS being a player in the whole scheme. After reading some people approach them about this issie and they refused to even discuss it at ?ll doesn't help. The tim?ime also fits between the rise of the new synth and the success of maps at getting their process approved. Wouldn't they have advantage that people suffering from ptsd or other mental health issues go score mdma and heal proving to everyone that the drug is almost solely responsible for the healing (because lets face it it really is the case) and that their very expensive clinical setup is not necessary to go throught. I know maps is a non-profit but I don't think other players like the pharm compagnies producing the mdma for them are...


----------



## Xorkoth

indigoaura said:


> In my experience, although the meh-DMA does not produce the depression or "suicide Tuesday" feeling of old MDMA, it does produce physical side effects that traditional MDMA does not. In particular, I experience stomach upset, nausea, indigestion, and dizziness. These were never issues for me before, even when taking high doses of MDMA in the past (5 pills in a night).
> 
> Right now, just based on everything we have talked about so far, I think there is something else in the product that is making me sick and also blocking the action of the MDMA.





babooon87 said:


> With this new mdma it feels as if the dopamine component of the roll is missing. The comeup is the same as a high dose of proper mdma ( intense, uncomfortable, anxious, nauseating, feeling cold, shaky etc ) but with good mdma this stage only lasts about 10-15 min after which you get the dopamine kick and you start rolling and feel awesome.
> 
> With the new stuff it is like you stay stuck in that comeup state for 1-2 hours and it never really settles and becomes comfortable or euphoric. The huge dose they put in those pills makes this comeup feeling very very intense and you feel like " oh my god... i'm going to roll sooo hard !  " but you never do. The comeup just goes on and on and on. When it finally settles and you stop feeling like shit you are already coming down.
> 
> I have tested the dopamine theory by taking methamphetamine on top of one of these new rolls and like I expected the experience felt much more like a real roll.
> 
> So yeah, I am also of the opinion that the more " psychedelic " isomer is favored in that synthesis over the " stimulant " one or something else about it inhibits dopamine from being released like it should. It has always been a consensus that dopamine play an important role in the mdma magic as similar compounds that are devoid of dopamine activity like mbdb or mdai are reported as lacking and even dysphoric.
> 
> I also did the comparison as I recently had the chance to get legit saffrole smelling old school mdma as well as the new stuff from another contact and the difference was like night and day. The saffrole stuff felt great, smooth, euphoric, empathetic, social. I had completely forgotten how good mdma is supposed to feel like. I had swore off this drug for a few years now because it just did not feel that good anymore. I thought the problem was in my own chemistry which seemed pretty odd because I never came close to abusing the stuff. The experience just changed overnight around 2010. Tried it again after 3-4 years of abstinence and it still wasnt any better. I had come to the conclusion that I just didnt enjoy rolling anymore because I'm too old for this shit. I was wrong and it turns out it's the drug that changed and not my brain.
> 
> I also noticed like most people that my pupils hardly dilate with the new material. Again, I thought it was my personal chemistry that changed because I remembered having HUGE pupils when the rolls were good before 2010. In fact, when I took the good stuff a month ago my pupils dilated once again. I also get no eye wiggles with the new synth which is one of the effects I always had very strongly and consistently.
> 
> I think we are starting to have more than enough anecdotal reports describing the exact same experience to keep dismissing it as being nostalgia, tolerance and expectations playing with our heads. I also talked with a younger coworker that started using mdma in the last few years and he keeps telling me how he has difficult comedowns immediately after the experience from as little as one 100 mg cap. This is not normal, especially with that low of a dose. You never get a comedown immediately after or even the day after with good mdma. In fact, you feel great and in a good mood the day after and when you do get a comedown it  is because you took a very large amount and it comes 2-3 days later.
> 
> Hope we get to the bottom of this somehow. Interesting discussion to say the least.



This is precisely what I feel from the last "MDMA" I got.  Incidentally, I believe what I had was 4-FEA, which I went through a gram of on purpose a little while before this.  It was definitely highly serotonergic, but with no dopamine component felt.  I didn't really want to talk to people much, it basically felt physically pleasurable and I sort of just felt stoned mentally (I don't mean like a weed high).  I didn't get bad emotional comedown effects afterwards, but physically the next day I felt pretty physically awful and my heart would pound very fast and hard most of the next day.  All the same characteristics of 4-FEA.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> Babooon87, would you also agree that old MDMA tended towards creating feelings of heat, but this new stuff does the opposite? I always found myself shedding clothes with the old stuff, because I got so hot. With this new stuff, I am piling on blankets and sweat shirts, because I am cold.



Ehh, I'm gonna have to 100% disagree here. MDMA just really changes the way you percieve temperature, if its a little cold, it feels REALLY cold. Ever since the first time I rolled thats what I've noticed, just how cold it makes you when you're not warm. Many memories of leaving the crowd when a festival is over and walking back to camp/hotel and feeling like I'm going to freeze to death when its chilly but not THAT cold.

On the flipside, when I come-up I get REALLY hot and need to get to a cooler area since it feels like if I stay in the crowd I'm going to drop like a fly.

Hell, this past summer with the MehDMA a big part of what I felt was hampering the experience was the whole time I felt uncomfortably hot and couldn't shed enough layers and moving around just made me too hot for comfort. Incidentally it was just a very warm night, which compacted this. 

Now, what I do notice is really good MDMA makes you sweat pretty hard. I think this is mainly just because the good stuff will have you dancing like a maniac, while the crappy stuff kinda makes you wanna just sit, sway or lean up against something. Good MDMA can also make my legs feel weak during the come-up, but once that has passed my brain is like "its fucking go time". End up shirtless flailing around howling at the top of my lungs as opposed to curled up in a sweatshirt all munted.

Again, my best analogy for the crappy MDMA is like a dud firework that never quite lifts off, jangly come-up and then fizzles out to an enjoyable, but very wanting experience. On paper this sounds like, hey you just didn't take enough, but this doesn't make sense when you're taking 2x or 3x the dose and it tests as perfectly good.

I agree that yeah, with the good stuff set and setting can't possibly impact it to that degree. I think we're all pretty well versed on the power of set & setting, I fully appreciate how it can change an experience, but the good MDMA just impacts you so viscerally and almost forcefully that it can't just be that.

Can't comment on the comedown since I've never really experienced a comedown from MDMA regardless of "type", unless its just 100% fake MDMA which I have had the displeasure of ingesting a couple times. As well, I've only ever experienced eye wiggles once, and it was one of the first few times I rolled when I was like 15 and I took two quality pressed pills. I have a hunch eye wiggles are produced by taking a larger than normal dose. Good or bad, I've never had eye wiggles from 100mg.

At this point my money is on a similar compound that fools most testing techniques. Whether thats one of the chemicals that glub has pointed out or MDPH I don't know, but thats seems the most likely to me. Even the scientist from energy control conceded this is possible. The minuscule contamination just doesn't seem as likely to me, its not logical that the process of creating MDMA would create a byproduct with orders of magnitude effects compared to the product.


----------



## indigoaura

In regards to MAPS, I have had a few similar conspiracy theories cross my mind. However, I don't actually think this benefits them in the end. If fake MDMA is causing long term comedowns, deaths, and other problems, then negative media could influence their chances of FDA approval. I don't think that is a risk worth taking for them. All it would take would be one high profile teen death for funding for their studies to dry up.

A more likely conspiracy theory, IMO, is that governments or pharmaceutical companies did not want MDMA floating around solving people's problems, inspiring peace etc. MDMA had the power to inspire movements, revolutions. It was the kind of drug to fuel people towards action. I could see those in power deciding to water down the supply with something boring and uninspiring. If half or more than half of street MDMA is not that impressive, then they may curb usage overall. Does anyone here remember the legislation that was passed to make raves illegal and how that basically killed the rave scene? This would go hand in hand with that.


----------



## epic11

Le Junk said:


> Great question!  Thats why all of these Dutch pills are excessively high milligrams.  Theyre having to make up for something thats missing.  120 mgs of Dutch MDMA isnt enough to make it happen.  Its all part of the missing link.



My thoughts exactly.



indigoaura said:


> Yeah, I have even gone up to 135 mg of the stuff I have access to and it is not enough. It does not put you over the thresh-hold to where you need to be, and neither does a re-dose.



Interesting, thanks for your input. Again, interesting.



indigoaura said:


> Also, shezinphx, I agree. Quality MDMA makes you feel amazing nomatter what is going on or where you are. I recall one year being on the verge of breaking up with my partner at that time, and not even wanting to go out, but ending up at this NYE party where I ended up having a blast due to quality MDMA. I could not have gone into it with a worse mindframe or mood, but once it hit, everything was oh so fine.



I actually agree. While set and setting is still important for mdma, any mdma that was the real deal put me into a good headspace no matter what those set and setting were. 



Le Junk said:


> Exactly!  That would not have been the same outcome with todays MDMA.  You would have just ended up more irritated than you were to begin with.



Potentially for sure! I find im much more sad after this theory of something being wrong with mdma. And its not cause of the drug, its cause i didnt actually have a loving helpful roll. Lacking and leaves you feeling even more empty.



Le Junk said:


> Also, remember touch and feel with old school MDMA?  Tongue kissing, sex, rubbing etc was so intensified!  It was 1000 fold over normal touch and feel.  I dont get any of that with the new MDMA.  None.



I believe you are right here, while mdma has only made me feel good to touch only once (first time), i can say that most stuff ive done in the last 2 years just feels like a come up to nothing. No touching, no love. But you are definitely on mdma. Gurning, eyes a bit bigger, sweating, have to drink water. But without the love...... ???

edit for facts: Ive tested everything ive ever gotten from my first experience.


----------



## epic11

babooon87 said:


> With this new mdma it feels as if the dopamine component of the roll is missing. The comeup is the same as a high dose of proper mdma ( intense, uncomfortable, anxious, nauseating, feeling cold, shaky etc ) but with good mdma this stage only lasts about 10-15 min after which you get the dopamine kick and you start rolling and feel awesome.
> 
> With the new stuff it is like you stay stuck in that comeup state for 1-2 hours and it never really settles and becomes comfortable or euphoric. The huge dose they put in those pills makes this comeup feeling very very intense and you feel like " oh my god... i'm going to roll sooo hard !  " but you never do. The comeup just goes on and on and on. When it finally settles and you stop feeling like shit you are already coming down.
> 
> I have tested the dopamine theory by taking methamphetamine on top of one of these new rolls and like I expected the experience felt much more like a real roll.
> 
> So yeah, I am also of the opinion that the more " psychedelic " isomer is favored in that synthesis over the " stimulant " one or something else about it inhibits dopamine from being released like it should. It has always been a consensus that dopamine play an important role in the mdma magic as similar compounds that are devoid of dopamine activity like mbdb or mdai are reported as lacking and even dysphoric.
> 
> I also did the comparison as I recently had the chance to get legit saffrole smelling old school mdma as well as the new stuff from another contact and the difference was like night and day. The saffrole stuff felt great, smooth, euphoric, empathetic, social. I had completely forgotten how good mdma is supposed to feel like. I had swore off this drug for a few years now because it just did not feel that good anymore. I thought the problem was in my own chemistry which seemed pretty odd because I never came close to abusing the stuff. The experience just changed overnight around 2010. Tried it again after 3-4 years of abstinence and it still wasnt any better. I had come to the conclusion that I just didnt enjoy rolling anymore because I'm too old for this shit. I was wrong and it turns out it's the drug that changed and not my brain.
> 
> I also noticed like most people that my pupils hardly dilate with the new material. Again, I thought it was my personal chemistry that changed because I remembered having HUGE pupils when the rolls were good before 2010. In fact, when I took the good stuff a month ago my pupils dilated once again. I also get no eye wiggles with the new synth which is one of the effects I always had very strongly and consistently.
> 
> I think we are starting to have more than enough anecdotal reports describing the exact same experience to keep dismissing it as being nostalgia, tolerance and expectations playing with our heads. I also talked with a younger coworker that started using mdma in the last few years and he keeps telling me how he has difficult comedowns immediately after the experience from as little as one 100 mg cap. This is not normal, especially with that low of a dose. You never get a comedown immediately after or even the day after with good mdma. In fact, you feel great and in a good mood the day after and when you do get a comedown it  is because you took a very large amount and it comes 2-3 days later.
> 
> Hope we get to the bottom of this somehow. Interesting discussion to say the least.



Id say this thought right here could hold some merit. I feel the same. My eyes dont fully dilate on most current pure mdma thats tested, however they will still wiggle sometimes.


----------



## indigoaura

Quick anecdote to further illustrate just how lacking the new product can be.

A few years ago, I waited in line all day to make it to the front of the crowd for my favorite band's performance. Should have been a completely epic situation. I was on the second row. I took 100 mg and then another 100 mg of this new meh-DMA. There was a guy in front of me who was being super annoying. He was yelling/talking over the show etc. I'm on 200 mg of this stuff but I am angry, agitated, frustrated and getting confrontational with this guy. I actually ended up leaving the second row spot that I waited in line 8 hours to get because I was so frustrated.

Tell me, if this was true MDMA, do you think that would have happened? Because, in a true rolling situation I think I would have felt empathetic to that guy's excitement and so overwhelmed by the music and the band that it would not have even mattered. I certainly would not have been walking away totally pissed off and agitated. But, time and again that is the kind of experience I have had with this stuff. 

Still, what we need in order to progress this beyond a conversation is a reputable lab that will use Raman spectroscopy instead of the standard GCMS. We need somewhere that we could all send samples in to and compare results. I currently do not have any access to decent MDMA, but I have multiple samples of meh-DMA to be analyzed.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> Quick anecdote to further illustrate just how lacking the new product can be.
> 
> A few years ago, I waited in line all day to make it to the front of the crowd for my favorite band's performance. Should have been a completely epic situation. I was on the second row. I took 100 mg and then another 100 mg of this new meh-DMA. There was a guy in front of me who was being super annoying. He was yelling/talking over the show etc. I'm on 200 mg of this stuff but I am angry, agitated, frustrated and getting confrontational with this guy. I actually ended up leaving the second row spot that I waited in line 8 hours to get because I was so frustrated.
> 
> Tell me, if this was true MDMA, do you think that would have happened? Because, in a true rolling situation I think I would have felt empathetic to that guy's excitement and so overwhelmed by the music and the band that it would not have even mattered. I certainly would not have been walking away totally pissed off and agitated. But, time and again that is the kind of experience I have had with this stuff.
> 
> Still, what we need in order to progress this beyond a conversation is a reputable lab that will use Raman spectroscopy instead of the standard GCMS. We need somewhere that we could all send samples in to and compare results. I currently do not have any access to decent MDMA, but I have multiple samples of meh-DMA to be analyzed.



When ecstasy first became common in the UK in the late 80s, it made a huge impact on curbing the football violence which had become prevalent over the previous couple of decades

Instead of getting drunk and beating the shit out of each other before, during and after each match, rival fans were dropping pills and hugging each other.

The police tolerated it because it gave them a much easier life.

This would definitely not happen with the stuff that is commonly available today.


I'm not into football (soccer) myself, but I can imagine the vibe from hundreds of people off their tits watching a match would be awesome.


----------



## G_Chem

From late 2000?s right when the drought hit, until 2013 or so there was a local producer known nation wide (if not worldwide at that time) for their product.

Where these MDMA pills were being produced is a city known for violence and corruption.  I remember watching Drugs Inc where they actually interviewed a black dude from the south side on ecstasy and these guys were actually taking these pills.

During the segment these guys then sit around making music, sharing laughs, but most importantly discussing the troubles of their community and viewing these issues with a newfound sense of empathy.  The conversations they had really struck a chord with me and peace in the ghetto seemed much more possible at that moment than ever before.

True MDMA has the ability to bring together all walks of life, no matter our past differences or indiscretions.

That?s something I feel is missing in today?s MDMA scene and I can?t tell if it?s the drug or something else.  I know I feel I stand out when I roll, it?s rare to find others on the same plane as me when I dose some MDXX.  

I miss those days where someone you just met would embarrassingly tell you about their life story and it not seem weird.  Or people dancing like they just don?t give a fuck.

Maybe I?m just getting old looking and less rolling kids wanna come chat shit.. Idk..

-GC


----------



## wereallmadhere

epic11 said:


> Id say this thought right here could hold some merit. I feel the same. My eyes dont fully dilate on most current pure mdma thats tested, however they will still wiggle sometimes.


  My eyes dilate just fine, about same compared to mushrooms or lsd. I mean just go on the mdma sub reddit people are posting thier eyes about every day lol. Now my experience with darknet mdma has been lesser than the first material I obtained IRL, but I am not convinced the material is the problem. The roll had pretty much all aspects of what I expect from a good roll, other than i wasnt bowled over with euforia. The reason i think this was neccessarily a problem with the mdma, is I started that night with 2.5 grams of mushrooms which are just as euforic , if not more, in my experience as mdma.. But it wasnt there that night. But everything else seemed to be there in spades. Luckily I still have some of my original material, which is the first mdma i ever rolled with, and have rolled less than 10 times. Will be very interesting to compare, as I only used mdma for the first time last year and was truly magical. No doubt a classic mdma experience from all accounts I have read.  If my old original material returns some of the magic some of my skeptism of this thread will resede.. lol


----------



## Kaden_Nite

There is still plenty of quality MDMA around, being enjoyed by vast amounts of people, I guess it's just not available to everyone who wants it (or they just can't enjoy it) hence this thread.

In the age of accessible testing facilities, expansive online databases, product reviews, endless forensic testing and worldwide consumption, there is no chance that a product masquerading as MDMA is able to be passed off in such a scientifically deceptive and diabolically massive scale as this thread's title and some of the posters are suggesting.

There are fluctuations in the purity and contents of batches and there are other drugs being passed off as MDMA at the point of sale. Such is true for every street drug.



But please, enough with the "today's MDMA" bullshit. It is a painfully incorrect and baseless generalisation to assume that the modern stuff is flawed in a way that yours was not, or that the current generation aren't enjoying that MDMA as much as you were enjoying yours, back before the weight of the world crushed your spirit.

The majority of MDMA I've had has been most satisfactory, some of those nights were among the most beautiful of my life. It would piss me right off to have some relic of the rave days discount the legitimacy of my experiences just because of the year that they happened.

That said, I've also had a few batches which gave a drawn out, but less eventful peak and one batch which consistently gave the intense come-up, sudden drop off that FUBAR speaks of. All tested as MDMA only. I would be interested in discussing what factors; chemical, pharmacological and circumstantial, caused such differences. I'm not into dismissing or romanticising certain batches based on the era though, there seems to be a lot of that.

The testing facilities have really been dragged through the dirt in this thread too. That's not cool. Energy Control sent a detailed and thought-out email explaining their position. This was met with instant discourtesy and a berating list of all the things they haven't done right.

There have been a number of posts I wanted to quote but I think that's enough for now.

Good day.


----------



## psy997

Kaden_Nite said:


> There is still plenty of quality MDMA around, being enjoyed by vast amounts of people, I guess it's just not available to everyone who wants it (or they just can't enjoy it) hence this thread.



Logical fallacy assuming that since there is still plenty of quality MDMA, that there is not MDMA that has the effects discussed here, or that it is in fact widespread.



> In the age of accessible testing facilities, expansive online databases, product reviews, endless forensic testing and worldwide consumption, there is no chance that a product masquerading as MDMA is able to be passed off in such a scientifically deceptive and diabolically massive scale as this thread's title and some of the posters are suggesting.



You are making a few large assumptions here that have no place being masqueraded as fact.



> There are fluctuations in the purity and contents of batches and there are other drugs being passed off as MDMA at the point of sale. Such is true for every street drug.



Yes and, these factors are not enough to be the cause of the effects noted here. RE: other drugs being passed off as MDMA, we have already found - multiple times - that product can test as MDMA both with test kits and at EC and be subpar to the point of being a totally different experience.



> But please, enough with the "today's MDMA" bullshit. It is a painfully incorrect and baseless generalisation to assume that the modern stuff is flawed in a way that yours was not, or that the current generation aren't enjoying that MDMA as much as you were enjoying yours, back before the weight of the world crushed your spirit.



Multiple logical fallacies here, you really do give yourself to criticism too easily Kaden  . One, it's a hell of a strawman you've created with your "Today's MDMA...back before the eight of the world crushed your spirit" comment (for reference, I started doing MDMA back in 2014 and have experienced the same shift). Two, no-one is making a generalization here except for you.



> The majority of MDMA I've had has been most satisfactory, some of those nights were among the most beautiful of my life.



Great, you're lucky. This means nothing.



> It would piss me right off to have some relic of the rave days discount the legitimacy of my experiences just because of the year that they happened.



Again, you betray your own assumptive tendency, as well as emotional appeal to legitimacy. No-one here is discounting other's experiences, nor the fact that proper MDMA still exists.



> That said, I've also had a few batches which gave a drawn out, but less eventful peak and one batch which consistently gave the intense come-up, sudden drop off that FUBAR speaks of. All tested as MDMA only. *I would be interested in discussing what factors; chemical, pharmacological and circumstantial, caused such differences*. I'm not into dismissing or romanticising certain batches based on the era though, there seems to be a lot of that.



It's funny, because that's exactly what we're doing here and yet, you can't seem to stop yourself from shitting on the entire discussion with appeals to both emotion and reason as to how we're all being silly.

Furthermore, ample evidence eg. documented synthesis changes have been provided to explain the various "eras" of MDMA and yet, you still accuse of romanticizing batches as if there is no logical reason for doing so. Silly Kaden.



> The testing facilities have really been dragged through the dirt in this thread too. That's not cool. Energy Control sent a detailed and thought-out email explaining their position. This was met with instant discourtesy and a berating list of all the things they haven't done right.



I would disagree with what you call "instant discourtesy" and "berating". If the discussion that's followed regarding EC seems that way to you, I have more understanding as to why you seem unable to engage in a reasonable conversation about an ambiguous, complex, and multi-faceted topic.



> There have been a number of posts I wanted to quote but I think that's enough for now.



Sometimes, all you need is one


----------



## indigoaura

> The majority of MDMA I've had has been most satisfactory, some of those nights were among the most beautiful of my life. It would piss me right off to have some relic of the rave days discount the legitimacy of my experiences just because of the year that they happened.



Nobody is doing that. If that is what you come away with after reading this thread, then there is really very little to say. You are completely, entirely, and totally missing the point. I think Psy997 hit most of it in his post. Good grief.

Let me break it down too...

#1. There is quality MDMA out there, and there is low-quality "MDMA" out there.
#2. Some low-quality "MDMA" looks pure on regent and GCMS testing, but produces a different effect. This has been verified with multiple labs and user reports. 
#3. Tolerance does not explain it as there are multiple reports where tolerance is not a factor.
#4. Set/Setting does not explain it as there are reports where a different product produced the correct effect under the same circumstances.
#5. Raman spectroscopy appears more capable of detailed testing compared to GCMS, but no lab currently offers it.
#6. This thread is dedicated to understanding the differences between quality/non-quality batches, what causes those differences, and how we can determine which is which. It has absolutely nothing to do with romanticizing a particular era. If it comes across that way, it is only because we are trying to compare and contrast based on the experiences we have had.

No "relic of the rave days" is trying to discount anyone's experience. To those people out there who are able to get quality MDMA, congratulations. You are very lucky. Not everyone is able to find it. Enjoy it. Just because you are able to find quality MDMA, that does not mean that everyone is. Believe it or not - everyone is not having the exact same experience as you.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

> *There is still plenty of quality MDMA around, being enjoyed by vast amounts of people, I guess it's just not available to everyone who wants it (or they just can't enjoy it) hence this thread.*
> 
> Logical fallacy assuming that since there is still plenty of quality MDMA, that there is not MDMA that has the effects discussed here, or that it is in fact widespread.



I didn't assume that. On the contrary:



> *There are fluctuations in the purity and contents of batches...
> 
> I've also had a few batches which gave a drawn out, but less eventful peak and one batch which consistently gave the intense come-up, sudden drop off...*



Reports of such lackluster effects are nothing new though. I think 'smacky' was the 1990s slang. There were good and bad batches 20-30 years ago, the same is true now. Based on the product, test results and reports, (both local and online) that I'm seeing and hearing though, I don't think that labelling poor quality MDMA "today's MDMA" is accurate.



> *In the age of accessible testing facilities, expansive online databases, product reviews, endless forensic testing and worldwide consumption, there is no chance that a product masquerading as MDMA is able to be passed off in such a scientifically deceptive and diabolically massive scale as this thread's title and some of the posters are suggesting.*
> 
> You are making a few large assumptions here that have no place being masqueraded as fact.



Prove me wrong. I would like it if 'bad MDMA experience' was a secret chemical that could be identified, isolated and therefore banished. I would also like a speed boat and 5 million dollars.

Honestly, I think I've got more chance of the speed boat.



> *There are fluctuations in the purity and contents of batches and there are other drugs being passed off as MDMA at the point of sale. Such is true for every street drug*
> 
> Yes and, these factors are not enough to be the cause of the effects noted here. RE: other drugs being passed off as MDMA, we have already found - multiple times - that product can test as MDMA both with test kits and at EC and be subpar to the point of being a totally different experience.



If, by 'these factors' you are referring to impurities; byproduct and leftovers from synthesis, I believe that this can and does influence the experience considerably. 



> *But please, enough with the "today's MDMA" bullshit. It is a painfully incorrect and baseless generalisation to assume that the modern stuff is flawed in a way that yours was not, or that the current generation aren't enjoying that MDMA as much as you were enjoying yours, back before the weight of the world crushed your spirit*
> 
> Multiple logical fallacies. it's a hell of a strawman you've created



Thankyou.. I spent most of last week putting it together.







> no-one is making a generalization here except for you.



Okay. The title of the thread and a number of the answers it has generated sound a lot like generalisations to me. Negatives ones at that. What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - I'll tell you what's wrong. That attitude. Try focusing on what is right with the MDMA available today.

Testing. Online reviews. High purity pills, crystal.



> *I would be interested in discussing what factors; chemical, pharmacological and circumstantial, caused such differences. I'm not into dismissing or romanticising certain batches based on the era though, there seems to be a lot of that.*
> 
> It's funny, because that's exactly what we're doing here and yet, you can't seem to stop yourself from shitting on the entire discussion with appeals to both emotion and reason as to how we're all being silly



Well I didn't mean to bring reason in here.



> Furthermore, ample evidence eg. documented synthesis changes have been provided to explain the various "eras" of MDMA and and yet, you still accuse of romanticizing batches as if there is no logical reason for doing so



Yes, there a range of synthesis routes. What does all of the evidence and documentation say? Why would one MDMA synthesis cause such a dramatic difference? If not impurities?



> Silly Kaden



You don't mean that.

That's rage talk.




> *The testing facilities have really been dragged through the dirt in this thread too. That's not cool. Energy Control sent a detailed and thought-out email explaining their position. This was met with instant discourtesy and a berating list of all the things they haven't done right.*
> 
> I would disagree with what you call "instant discourtesy" and "berating". If the discussion that's followed regarding EC seems that way to you, I have more understanding as to why you seem unable to engage in a reasonable conversation about an ambiguous, complex, and multi-faceted topic.



Ambiguous, complex and multi-faceted. I'm choking on the smug of that statement.

This isn't over.


----------



## Brnoxoxo

Let's say that someone finds a lab that is capable of and willing to do complete analysis of MDMA samples (Raman spectroscopy?). What's next? Is there anyone who can actually design a study that checks if the hypothesis is correct (SympatheticMD said something like this maybe)? Obviously 1 sample of "good" MDMA and 1 sample of mehDMA is not enough to prove anything. It will require more samples to get some actual statistical evidence about difference between these 2 "same" products.


----------



## indigoaura

Brnoxoxo, there are a lot of people who have samples to submit. If we had a centralized testing location, everyone could send their samples in. I thought Energy Control would be a good place, but they are not providing the detail that we really need. That is not intended to dis Energy Control, but it is just a fact.

If I was designing a research study, I would want to see both GCMS and Raman testing on each sample. That way, it could be determined if adulterants were getting by GCMS but showing up on Raman. It would also be beneficial to determine a list of qualities that MDMA should posses, and allow each person submitting a sample to rate those qualities on a scale of 1-10. That way, the user experience would be quantifiable, and patterns could be identified between samples and user experience.


----------



## babooon87

Kaden_Nite said:


> I didn't assume that. On the contrary:
> 
> 
> 
> Reports of such lackluster effects are nothing new though. I think 'smacky' was the 1990s slang. There were good and bad batches 20-30 years ago, the same is true now. Based on the product, test results and reports, (both local and online) that I'm seeing and hearing though, I don't think that labelling poor quality MDMA "today's MDMA" is accurate.
> 
> 
> 
> Prove me wrong. I would like it if 'bad MDMA experience' was a secret chemical that could be identified, isolated and therefore banished. I would also like a speed boat and 5 million dollars.
> 
> Honestly, I think I've got more chance of the speed boat.
> 
> 
> 
> If, by 'these factors' you are referring to impurities; byproduct and leftovers from synthesis, I believe that this can and does influence the experience considerably.
> 
> 
> 
> Thankyou.. I spent most of last week putting it together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Okay. The title of the thread and a number of the answers it has generated sound a lot like generalisations to me. Negatives ones at that. What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - I'll tell you what's wrong. That attitude. Try focusing on what is right with the MDMA available today.
> 
> Testing. Online reviews. High purity pills, crystal.
> 
> 
> 
> Well I didn't mean to bring reason in here.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there a range of synthesis routes. What does all of the evidence and documentation say? Why would one MDMA synthesis cause such a dramatic difference? If not impurities?
> 
> 
> 
> You don't mean that.
> 
> That's rage talk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ambiguous, complex and multi-faceted. I'm choking on the smug of that statement.
> 
> This isn't over.



Of course there has always been good or bad product. The difference is that 10 years ago bad stuff would test as low dose, another drug entirely or md + a dirtier drug. Now the bad stuff tests as mdma only and people fin it lacking at double the normal dosage. It's this discrepency between lab results and experience people are having that we are trying to understand. I know the good stuff is still around plenty, hell in my area there is probably a lot more of the good stuff than the bad (I woulnd't know as mdma is not a drug I really seek out much these days) but still, I am, like many others very curious/fascinated by what could be the reason for this. 

But even more than what people feel ( euphoria, empathy, whatever ) that is very subjective and dependent on many variables what boggles me the most is the physiological effects that don't lie. Pupils that don't dilate is not normal at all. I remember some people that were completely burnt out from abuse with huge tolerances always had the insect eyes even   If they were feeling almost nothing from the roll.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Is renting a raman spectrometer a practical thing to do for an individual?


----------



## indigoaura

I have been trying to figure that out too, ThreePointCircle. Hard to find any prices or clear info.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Even if you did find a way to get one, you'd need to find someone who knows how to use it properly AND be able to look for what we're looking for. I've had my stuff tested with an FTIR spectrometer and that shit was complicated, its not like it spits out a list of everything it finds, you have to interpret the results and to my understanding its not always conclusive

God damn guys that was a big ol bickering. I think we all largely agree here... SOMETHING is wrong with SOME of the MDMA. How much is some? Why does it matter? Everyones got different connections and its a highly controlled substance, you're never going to be 100% sure of where it comes from or if one source is really reliable, tons of second hand info, etc... Our sample size is so incredibly small that I don't think we could accurately get an idea of who's got what around the world, and who knows what goes on behind the scenes of the criminal world of producing it and distributing it. Its all highly secretive, the only centralization whatsoever is the darknet and i think thats less utilized than the internet likes to think.

Just because you haven't had the crumby stuff doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and the opposite is true that just because you haven't had a good roll since 90's doesn't mean its all gone to shit. 

Just from my friend that gets a lot of different stuff, its a new batch all the time. During the summer when its "festival season" and its in high demand it might be a new batch/"type" every other week. By the time you've tried the stuff and decide its the goods, its already all gone and they've got new stuff. It varies from that dripping wet black gooey stuff to the pristine clear crystal magic stuff, its just luck of the draw what they have at the time.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^You said that well, I tried typing out something but couldn?t find the right words.  We must all realize that our view of overall drug trends shouldn?t be based just on current connections.  I?m one of those people that has rarely, if ever, come across this lackluster product.  I still believe others deal with this problem.

I thought back on it and I think there?s been two times.  Back in 2011 or so, still in the aftermath of the drought, I bought a bag of dark brown chunks that didn?t resemble crystals in the slightest.  This stuff seemed super mellow and I remember this being the batch that I swore I?d never buy really impure looking MDXX again.

Next time wasn?t until 2015 when I bought a purple Calvin Klein at a festival as kind of a novelty.  Where I?m at, Dutch product is an expensive import and so I bought it at an exorbitant amount of money.  Looking around they were supposed to be decent dosages, and tested fine.

Me being me, I wound up never eating it as ecstasy tends to sketch me out when I can much more easily, cheaply, and safely weigh out my own.  I gave it to a kid at a show and he came back later that night to tell me the pill was garbage.

Now with good MDMA, you might have a less that kickass roll but it?s exceedingly rare to just not feel much of anything on higher doses.

Let?s all just demand chemists start producing pure Mescaline.  I can only imagine the new scene that would emerge in the wake.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Hilopsilo said:


> Even if you did find a way to get one, you'd need to find someone who knows how to use it properly AND be able to look for what we're looking for. I've had my stuff tested with an FTIR spectrometer and that shit was complicated, its not like it spits out a list of everything it finds, you have to interpret the results and to my understanding its not always conclusive



Shame, but makes sense.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Interesting piece of research talking about misclassification of MDMA like substances: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

and this: https://academic.oup.com/chromsci/article-pdf/42/9/464/845872/42-9-464.pdf


----------



## Hilopsilo

ThreePointCircle said:


> Interesting piece of research talking about misclassification of MDMA like substances: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
> 
> and this: https://academic.oup.com/chromsci/article-pdf/42/9/464/845872/42-9-464.pdf



holy shit

i don't think its a farfetched possibility that certain synthesis techniques may inadvertently produce a compound(s) mentioned in that paper. Hard to know if even the producers are aware of it, might be fooling them just the same.

They can be identified, but from skimming through that it seems that the point is that its very difficult, you have to know what you're looking for, have good reference material and a bunch more specific testing procedures/equipment.

I know glub has pointed this out before, but damn this is some decently extensive research. Some juicy bits:

_"While the mass spectrum is often considered a specific “fingerprint” for an individual compound, other substances can produce very similar or almost identical mass spectra."

"The direct and indirect regioisomers of MDMA and also isobaric substances related to MDMA were synthesized and compared to MDMA by using gas chromatographic and spectrometric techniques. The spectrometric studies of the direct regioisomers and v isobaric substances of MDMA indicated that they can not be easily differentiated by mass spectrometry or ultraviolet (UV) spectrophotometry."_


----------



## LucidSDreamr

haven't been on this sub formum in like 6 months, i can see that this conversation is still going in circles from where it was like 40 pages ago.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Is there any scope for differentiating between types of content by boiling point?  And is this doable in any sense at home?


----------



## G_Chem

@LucidSDreamer - Yes and no..  I?d say we have a better clue about what to look for.  We have multiple analysis done, that have showed some interesting things.

The problem is with each new analysis we seem to be only further confused of the matter.

I?d say we?ve made progress.  Whether we can make anymore beyond this point is debatable..  We need someone else beyond Glubra to be able to closely analyze some product, it?s obvious the labs can?t give ya much more than very common impurities.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I apologize if someone else already posted this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29248945


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> I apologize if someone else already posted this:
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29248945



I think it has, but either way, I think its safe to say at this point its not the stereoisomers. We know enough about them in terms of effects, difficulty in creating a non-racemic product, etc. I really think we can cross that one out.

But we don't know jack shit about the effects of regioisomers and isobaries (are these synonymous with structural and positional isomers?) or a lot about how they'd be made. As in, we know it would be quite difficult to accidentally create purely R or S isomer MDMA even without knowing exact contemporary production techniques, but not necessarily the other "types of isomers" (sorry, not a chemist here, not sure if thats how you'd call it). Maybe it is just as convoluted and unlikely to inadvertently create these compounds, but we just don't know and there is no information to say one way or the other.

What is certainly useful is that there is some documentation of the differences in effects between R and S isomer MDMA, so I think it wouldn't be farfetched to hypothesize that these other "types of isomers" could indeed have varying effects. 

I really think we're onto something with the whole substances identical molar mass theory. I'm kinda disappointed none of the testing services ever got back to me about their specific testing processes, if we knew those, we could put it past someone who knows their shit to determine if those techniques would detect the other kinds of isomers.

I think it would be valuable if we could collaboratively write up some sort of concise hypothesis about this that is grammatically correct in a scientific sense.


----------



## indigoaura

So, I have penned an email which I am going to start sending to researchers. I am posting it here to get feedback from others. I plan to search Pubmed to identify researchers who are studying similar issues, and then I will email them and ask for their assistance with designing and implementing a study regarding this phenomena. 

My email:


> To Whom it may Concern:
> 
> I am writing in the hopes of finding a reputable researcher and lab who would be willing to investigate a phenomena that has been noted and studied within the recreational drug using community for over a year. Our ability to further investigate this issue is limited due to a lack of access to lab equipment or the necessary legal permissions. It is a public health and safety concern, and currently available harm reduction testing does not accurately protect users.
> 
> Summary:
> MDMA users have noticed a marked difference the effect profile of substances that have been sold as MDMA and tested as MDMA by GCMS labs such as Ecstasy Data and International Energy Control. These variations in effect have been noted by users with a wide variety of usage histories including virgin and new users, so tolerance does not explain the differences that have been noticed.
> 
> MDMA typically produces feelings of euphoria and empathy as well as sensory enhancement. Physical milestones typically include noticeable eye dilation and jaw clenching. Users report energy, dancing, and a desire to talk to/be with people.
> 
> However, there is a large amount of product circling the market that appears to be MDMA based on both reagent testing and lab testing. This product does not produce empathy, euphoria, or sensory enhancement even at high doses. Also significant - the product does not produce mydriasis even among new MDMA users. Users report a feeling of coldness, introversion, tiredness, and overall lack of energy. This product is also producing more significant physical illness following use, and other long term issues.
> 
> Despite these markedly different profiles, both products appear to be MDMA when examined by GCMS. Multiple MDMA users have submitted samples with the same results.
> 
> One of our volunteers, however, had access to raman spectroscopy equipment. He found impurities that GCMS testing did not, such as the compound MDPH.
> 
> Based on our research, we suspect that a new designer drug has infiltrated the market and is being sold as MDMA, or is being mixed with MDMA. We suspect that this product shares the molecular weight of MDMA and is not detected by GCMS testing. This product may indicate a significant increase in risk to recreational MDMA users.
> 
> What we need is a researcher who is willing to design and implement a legal study of this phenomenon. This would provide valuable harm reduction and potentially identify a newly emerged psychoactive substance that is being served to unwilling and unknowing users. We need advanced testing of MDMA samples beyond the GCMS testing that is currently available.
> 
> I am writing to you specifically because of your existing research on newly emerged psychoactive substances. Please consider helping us with this research. We have taken our investigation as far as possible without the involvement of researchers.
> 
> You can read parts of our conversation on this topic here: https://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/791073-What-is-wrong-with-the-MDMA-available-today
> 
> Regards,
> Indigo



I am going to start by emailing the authors of this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25331619

If any of you can help me find the contact information for these authors, that would save me some time.


----------



## Hilopsilo

That sounds great, I'd definitely include this paper though; http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y (thanks ThreePointCircle), I think that is the most in depth piece of info on the subject overall and also contains instructions on how to identify these things


----------



## indigoaura

I am also going to reach out to this place:
https://www.herts.ac.uk/research/ce...drug-misuse-and-novel-psychoactive-substances

They not only study novel compounds, but also study online drug-use forums. So, they appear to see the relevance of gleaning data from forums like this.


----------



## indigoaura

Here is a copy of the slightly changed email that I began sending today. I will make additional changes as recommended. 

The next step is getting the right people on board to design and implement a study. I think there are multiple angles that researchers could use to move forward with this. 



> To Whom It May Concern:
> 
> I am writing in the hopes of finding a reputable researcher and lab who would be willing to investigate a phenomena that has been noted and studied within the recreational drug using community for over a year. Our ability to further investigate this issue is limited due to a lack of access to lab equipment or the necessary legal permissions. It is a public health and safety concern, and currently available harm reduction testing does not adequately protect users.
> 
> Summary:
> MDMA users have noticed a marked difference in the effect profile of substances that have been sold as MDMA and tested as MDMA by GCMS labs such as Ecstasy Data and International Energy Control. These variations in effect have been noted by users with a wide variety of usage histories including virgin and new users, so tolerance does not explain the differences that have been noticed.
> 
> Typical Effects:
> MDMA typically produces feelings of euphoria and empathy as well as sensory enhancement. Physical milestones typically include noticeable eye dilation and jaw clenching. Users report energy, dancing, and a desire to talk to and be with people.
> 
> Alternate Effects:
> However, there is a large amount of product circling the market that appears to be MDMA based on both reagent testing and lab testing. This product does not produce empathy, euphoria, or sensory enhancement even at high doses. Also significant - the product does not produce mydriasis even among new MDMA users. Users report a feeling of coldness, introversion, tiredness, and overall lack of energy. This product is also producing more significant physical illness following use, and other long term issues.
> 
> Despite these markedly different profiles, both products appear to be MDMA when examined by GCMS. Multiple MDMA users have submitted samples with the same results.
> 
> One of our volunteers, however, had access to raman spectroscopy equipment. He found impurities that GCMS testing did not, such as the compound MDPH.
> 
> Based on our research, we suspect that a new designer drug has infiltrated the market and is being sold as MDMA, or is being mixed with MDMA. We suspect that this product may share the molar mass of MDMA, and it is not detected by GCMS testing. For example, there are isobaries of MDMA that would be indistinguishable using typical GCMS testing. This product may indicate a significant increase in risk to recreational MDMA users.
> 
> More details on the substances that may appear as MDMA using GCMS: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
> 
> What we need is a researcher who is willing to design and implement a legal study of this phenomenon. This would provide valuable harm reduction and potentially identify a newly emerging psychoactive substance that is being served to unwilling and unknowing users. We need advanced testing of MDMA samples beyond the GCMS testing that is currently available.
> 
> A research study could evaluate the effectiveness of currently available GCMS testing in comparison to more advanced testing practices, and could address the research question of whether current harm reduction methods are effective at identifying modern contaminants and adulterants. Research could also address user reports in combination with testing results to identify what adulterant is causing the alternate effects profile, with the goal of improving harm reduction for MDMA users.
> 
> I am writing to you specifically because of your existing research on newly emerging psychoactive substances, as well as your interest in online drug-use communities. Please consider helping us with this research. We have taken our investigation as far as possible without the involvement of researchers. We have reached out to Ecstasy Data and International Energy Control, but they do not have the equipment needed for more advanced analysis of submitted samples.
> 
> You can read parts of our conversation on this topic here: https://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/791073-What-is-wrong-with-the-MDMA-available-today
> 
> We would so appreciate your support with taking this research to the next level.
> 
> Regards,
> Indigo


----------



## G_Chem

Great idea!  This is our only shot at getting this tested out.  I?d be willing to communicate with any of these organizations as well if they?d like a more in depth look at the chemistry trends over the years and how they correlate perfectly with peoples complaints of a change as well as a change in the way the Marquis reacts.

I like where your heads at and appreciate your efforts!

-Gc


----------



## Bella Figura

I never sampled the MDMA of olden days, but I'm of the opinion nothing has changed.

My last experience felt totally useless and underwhelming, I actually couldn't wait for it to be over. I think after 10 years of using it I've just gotten too familiar with the effects and the novelty has worn off.

But to be fair, setting was fairly dull and had zero company.


----------



## NewFaceSameTripper

I've always bought MDMA in powder form. 120mg in a cap has always gave me a great whether it was 1/3/6 months between doses. 

I dont fuck with pressed E pills. Seen too many ppl tweak an shit on a roll.


----------



## Phobos

NewFaceSameTripper said:


> I've always bought MDMA in powder form. 120mg in a cap has always gave me a great whether it was 1/3/6 months between doses.
> 
> I dont fuck with pressed E pills. Seen too many ppl tweak an shit on a roll.



And how does buying it in powder form rather than in pressed pills help you get pure MDMA?


----------



## G_Chem

^^It likely doesn?t but I?ll also say I feel the chances are at least a slight bit better.  Most of the best small end safrole chemists likely just keep the product pureinstead of pressing for a number of reasons.

Most pressed pills are from larger operations or copycat pressers trying to make a buck.  These larger operations likely use the potentially problematic synth route we have been theorizing about.

I?ll say too.  I?ve had good access to lots of good quality safrole MDXX but I haven?t had a good press come my way besides a few random G6 pills from SoCal and a random MDA pill from the NE since like 2013 or so.

What I?m getting at, at least in the US, good domestic presses are hard to find.  Dutch Imports have ruined it for any domestic pressers because they can?t compete to put the same dosages in.

But.... G6 is a great example of how domestic US product is still ?good.?  Most folks on reddit think these pills are 200mg when they have only shown 120mg or so..  It?s cuz that 120mg high feels like 200+ of some Dutch Import.  (Edit- This last point is debatable, after further looking it appears the exact Mg content may still be unknown for the G6 pressers.)

Been reading old Bl posts and trying to determine if it really was different back then, as well as my old pictures and yes it was.  People still get dilated pupils here and there these days but beyond the monster pupils I noticed people?s eyes back then were all wide, mine included in a pic from a while back.  These days most look munted as shit.

-GC


----------



## atara

GC/MS will not pick up differences between 3,4-MDMA and 2,3-MDMA (except, I guess, a C3H3 fragment could form, but it won't), but 1H-NMR should, through different shifts on the benzene ring. GC/MS for 4-methyl-3-methoxymethamphetamine would be rather similar but slightly different from MDMA, but I've got no idea where anyone would get the precursor for that -- there are no phenylpropanoids with that structure in natural products, and 2-methoxytoluene alkylates at 3 and 5, not 4. Clever shit like chlorination of p-tolualdehyde could work, but clandestine chemists do _not _like new reactions and that method requires a lot of new reactions. Cathinones should show up on GC/MS.

So what's the most likely answer? Well, _pupil dilation_ isn't any kind of measure of MDMA quality. Amphetamines, psychedelics, dissociatives and anticholinergics all cause of pupil dilation, with anticholinergics leading the pack in severity. More likely IMO, the "lack of euphoria" is a lack of stimulation and nobody wants to admit the stuff they took in the old days was enhanced with amphetamine... if serotonin depletion causes hangovers (it's hard to actually know what causes hangovers), common sense should tell you that 150 mg of MDMA will probably release more serotonin than 100 mg of MDMA and 10 mg of amphetamine, so the former _might_ give you a worse hangover. 

The imagination of ecstasy as a wonder drug leads to bad reasoning. It was a lucky discovery with some nice properties, not a gift from Heaven.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

shezinphx said:


> They are not the same. I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot. People keep talking about setting etc. That's the bullshit. If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right! It doesn't matter where you are! If the pills are good they are going to be good regardless of setting. I think a lot of people who have never experienced super pure MDMA won't get that until they actually do.
Click to expand...




indigoaura said:


> Also, shezinphx, I agree. Quality MDMA makes you feel amazing nomatter what is going on or where you are.



From Pihkal:



> (with 100 mg) Beforehand, I was aware of a dull, uncaring tiredness that might have reflected too little sleep, and I took a modest level of MDMA to see if it might serve me as a stimulant. I napped for a half hour or so, and woke up definitely not improved. The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I'd felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to. So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: 'I shouldn't have done that, oh yes, I shouldn't have done that, oh no, I shouldn't have done that; it was a mistake.' Then I would start over again from the beginning. I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do. After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back. But so was my plain, ornery tiredness.


----------



## indigoaura

> Well, pupil dilation isn't any kind of measure of MDMA quality. Amphetamines, psychedelics, dissociatives and anticholinergics all cause of pupil dilation, with anticholinergics leading the pack in severity. More likely IMO, the "lack of euphoria" is a lack of stimulation and nobody wants to admit the stuff they took in the old days was enhanced with amphetamine.



Atara, I sent in my old pills from the early 2000s to ecstasy data, and they tested as MDMA, NOT MDMA + amphetamine. I had a few presses where there was obviously amphetamine mixed in, and you could see those orange flecks on the marquis results. But, those pills felt very different than the regular stuff I got. It was not the norm. 

As for the eye dilation...well, if there is no eye dilation occurring at all then the product isn't any of the things you mentioned.

And Kaden, that Pikhal entry is a little misleading, as it is one of many entries showing how dosage changes the effects of MDMA. The next paragraph, with 120 mg states "There is nothing but pure euphoria. I have never felt so great, or believed this to be possible." So, you are basically showing an entry that is meant to illustrate that 100 mg is not enough to cross the threshold, which I think most of us here would agree with. However, the questionable product that we have experienced has been dosed at 200 mg with those same insufficient effects. Increasing the dose does not cause you to cross the threshold.


----------



## Jaredborgetti

The first time i did MDMA i bought this pill https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6724&mobile=1 but a green one, these are Brazilian not Dutch and sell for considerably more than a normal pill, when I took it I felt full euphoria completly melting everything MDMA is supposed to be and a beautiful afterglow for some days after, could sleep perfectly etc... and I can promise you 100% that I didnt have any pupil dilation whatsoever, actually I always told my girlfriend that it was really weird our pupils didnt get dilated since MDMA is supposed to do that but with those pills it never happened our first times, not long ago I tried one of those blue punisher dutch pills tested with marquis and liebermann reagent as pure MDMA and I got massive pupil dilation but the effects werent nearly as good as pure MDMA, I honestly believe pupil dilation doesnt have anything to do with it for me at least personally no, I also con very slight visuals at the end on the trip with the punisher pills which I found extremely distressing since that never used to happen to me.


----------



## Simosom

Kaden_Nite said:


> From Pihkal:



6 hours?? Max i got is 3 hrs.
In last 4 years I got all kind of batches, some gave me pupil dilated some not. All of it  had  short duration and lack of empathy, euphoria, music apretiaton etc. 
Different kind of Duch pills. Mdma from big transparent, brown, yellow cristals and Powder. Location Europe. 
All tested positive marquis reagent, some straight to black some purple.
And yes, Mdma was different back in the early 2000 when I started.


----------



## Jaredborgetti

Also I should mention with those green alien pills the first few times the trip would last 6-7 hours, with the punisher pills it lasted about 4:30 hours.


----------



## Hylight

they shouldn't have made lsd illegal
but all it takes is one.


----------



## G_Chem

@Jared- That ecstasy data report you posted is from Salt Lake City, UT.  Based on the ease and shittiness of that particular press, combined with your two wildly different locations, it?s safe to assume your little alien head was different from that one.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

I?ve found duration depends on batch for me too.  I?ve found it?s not so much a safrole or not-safrole thing, I haven?t figured out the rhyme or reason to it.  But generally GOOD MDMA has two types of characteristics.

Either it?s super hard hitting floor you type of stuff that lasts 3-4hours from initial comeup.  Then there is the type that comeups a little bit later (like 45-60min instead of 30) but seems to last forever.  It?s the comedown where they really differ.  The short acting stuff drops off from peaking to sober almost as quick as you came up, the longer acting stuff has no jarring drop and you can party on it all night even though the roll ends at 6 hours or so.

I prefer the longer acting stuff for going out dancing but prefer the short hard hitting stuff for at home.  My guess is that these differences are due to isomer variations.

If the MDMA peak is any less than a solid 3-4hours, then it?s either shit MDMA or a tolerance issue.

-GC


----------



## Jaredborgetti

I dont think so, those are brazilian made, pretty famous, I bought them in Mexico, but they move around all the continent, they are pretty pure MDMA, I have never had pills as good as those ones even the powder I have that turns purple blue with the marquis and is pretty good doesnt come close to it, I dont think pupil dilation has anything to do with it honestly some people get dilated pupils with MDMA some dont.

I know for a fact that those same exact pills are sold in Texas, Mexico and Brazil and that they are made in Brazil.

And they are pure MDMA without cuts.

And I repeat I got crazy dilated pupils with the Dutch Punisher pills just half of one so I honestly dont think it means shit or at least is very individual.


----------



## indigoaura

Jaredborgetti, how do you know all of these things as a fact? I could go to ecstasydata right now and type in "Alien" and pull up four different versions of that press in the USA. Each one has different results. Three of the four are mixes of MDMA and MDA in various amounts. One is MDMA only. Based on the length of your experience, it seems more likely you had a mix of MDMA and MDA. Unless you sent your specific pill in for testing, there is no way to know for sure what you had. Copycat presses are very common.

As for eye dilation...for me, I always had very dilated eyes when I had good ecstasy. You are making statements that are not factual. MDMA is supposed to cause eye dilation. Maybe it is possible that you are an anomaly and your eyes don't dilate. Ok, maybe. But, eye dilation does have something to do with it for most people.


----------



## Jaredborgetti

Lets just say that I know for a fact the greens ones were MDMA  and they are from Brazil, there are other colors that are MDMA and MDA but the green ones were pure MDMA from brasil, take it as you wish, believe or not I dont win anything saying that shit, take it as you wish, no pupil dilation for first time user.


----------



## indigoaura

I was browsing the DW today, and I found this interesting. One listing claims to sell Canadian "Brown Sugar" MDMA. In the details, it specifically states: "The precursor used to manufacture our MDMA is helional."

First, I find it interesting that they are revealing their precursor in the details. Second, I have never heard of helional before. G-Chem or Glubra, can you comment on this?


----------



## G_Chem

Dude, you do realize that multiple producers will use the same pill press right?  For some presses, if they are hard enough to copy, you can MAYBE assume that it would be the same despite the huge distance between the two locations.

Thing is, that is about the easiest press to copy ever.  I can promise many more people than 1 are using this press.

On top of that, I know the scene in UT and I know without a doubt that your random press somehow did NOT make it all the way to Utah.

You can only use those results if the tests were done in a similar location, around the same time, with the exact same dimensions.  Colors can vary but unless this is a huge operation (doubtful) I can?t see how that press made it the thousands of miles to random ass no-place Salt Lake City.

-GC


----------



## Brnoxoxo

https://www.unodc.org/LSS/Announcement/Details/abeb2ba9-3788-4a67-a80a-19e098b4476b

If I understand this correctly, PMK glycidate (most common MDMA precursor?) is now banned globally? This is huge, right?


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Yes this is not good..  While it may cure our initial problem to some extent the mass shortages that may follow will not be cool.  I?d suggest stocking up to many.

With that said, I can think of a number of other precursors that could be used in a similar way.  They?ll come out wit a new PMK glycidate before long. 

Also if I?m correct this will just effect the production end, not the smuggling aspect.  So if some Chinese chemists enjoy the money too much then they?ll keep doing what they are doing.  The market is too set up and vast.

-GC


----------



## EntheoDjinn

indigoaura said:


> I..................... I have never heard of helional before. G-Chem or Glubra, can you comment on this?



From Wikipedia:

_Helional (from heliotropin, from which is it commonly derived) is a chemical compound used as a perfume in soap and laundry detergent. Chemically it is an aldehyde with a hydrocinnamaldehyde motif; a structural element which is present in a number of other important commercial fragrances and odorants._

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helional

Bath salts anyone ;-)


----------



## Brnoxoxo

Also check this (maybe it was posted) https://www.erowid.org/columns/crew/2017/01/oddity-testing-service-defines-pure-mdma-as-84-pure/
Most labs use MDMA.HCl as a reference material so salt shouldn't be the culprit then, true?


----------



## LucidSDreamr

Brnoxoxo said:


> Also check this (maybe it was posted) https://www.erowid.org/columns/crew/2017/01/oddity-testing-service-defines-pure-mdma-as-84-pure/
> Most labs use MDMA.HCl as a reference material so salt shouldn't be the culprit then, true?



It wouldnt matter what salt of MDMA is being tested via LCMS or what salt the standard is...since the MDMA cation dissociates from the anion during lcms since its dissolved


----------



## G_Chem

Here’s a reply on reddit from a guy who takes MAPS MDMA and is in a clinical trial.  Here’s how he described the experience..

“”I have some questions about the mdma I’m being given at MAPS (FDA study). It definitely feels different from the street versions of the medicine I’ve had. Are you saying this is affected by the way in which they synthesize it, or just the purity (or both)?
The medicine they gave me felt MUCH more lucid in the dream-like states of the peaks. Conversely, in the troughs between the peaks, I felt way more high in like a drunken-headed kind of way. Like, trouble opening my eyes... 
And all together, I experienced some serious time dilation. What felt like 90 minutes was actually 5.5 hours. I slept easily that night, and there was no hangover whatsoever the next day(s)...””

This seems to indicate that pure MDMA in a relaxed medical setting does cause some drowsy sedation type effect.

I’ve said this before and based on my own experience it may be true.. I wonder if the stuff is just too pure these days and the effects many old timers seek is found from some of the impurities found in older batches of product.

Combine that with some tolerance and it’s a recipe for disappointment.

This guys experience I can somewhat relate to.  Not so much the drowsy troughs part, but how he describes it as being really lucid.  This part has always struck me when I’ve taken extra pure MD, like your not even on a drug almost.

That said I can’t relate to the other part which makes me believe it has to do with the relaxed yet odd medical setting that it’s taking place.

Either way I found it interesting and of course only further complicates things.  Idk what to believe anymore..  I think the problem here is with so many conflicting factors it may be impossible to ever find the truth.  It may all come down to personal opinion..

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I think the key point in that guy's report is that he describes peaks and troughs. This surely is where the term 'rolling was derived from and is something that is sadly lacking from the MehDMA we're discussing. The stuff I refer to as 'shit' has me coming up hard, but gets nowhere - there are no peaks and troughs, there is no 'roll', just up then down...


----------



## Biscuit

^ I'd bet my house (if I had one) on the "medicinal MDMA guy" having significantly dilated pupils during one of these MDMA therapy session; can we find that out possibly?

Also, the type of salt which is used is relevant, particularly with the rise of MDMA crystal and powder which will need to be measured on the assumption that the substance is MDMA-HCl and not some other salt). What is clear is that the labs do not all report the same across the board, as that helpful article linked above makes clear. Most government forensic laboratories seem to report only the amount of actual drug in the seizure, certainly in Australia this is the case. The user focused labs, particularly the European ones, invariably seem to report the quantity of MDMA as being the amount in salt form, consistent you might think with a user based approach to testing etc. 

As an aside, has anyone ever seen MDMA reported as anything other than the HCl? I haven't, even for all of those mega dosed pills. I just really hope that the labs are reporting the salt corectly and not merely making an assumption that it is MDMA-HCl. This issue certainly isn't the answer to this seemingly neverending conundrum but it is worth keeping in mind nonetheless.


----------



## G_Chem

@Fubar- Agreed on that.  Your right I remember when I started back in early/mid 00’s, I was told rolling related to the up n down of the effects and good MDMA definitely does this.

I also don’t hear that in a lot of reports anymore either.  Nowadays many claim it lasts 2-3 hours from dosing to comedown and sounds like one solid peak.

@Biscuit- I tried a follow up but have yet to receive a response.  I may private message again in a few days just to make sure.

I’d also bet he’s having dilated pupils as well.

Ill try him again soon to see what’s up.  The other thing that sticks out is the fact he says 5.5hrs felt like 90min.  I’m assuming that means the experience lasted at least 4-5, not the 1.5-3 hours some people claim today.

And that’s my biggest worry if the bad shit ever makes it my way.  The duration is big to me, when you only roll a few times a year you want that shit to last.  I’ve never had a roll last shorter than 3.5hrs from comeup til I have that “it’s over” feeling.  I prefer 5-6 hours though.


But also back on to the precursor regulations, what does this mean for the MDMA trade? Is PMK glycidate now illegal in China when before it wasnt?

-GC


----------



## NewTopic

About 6 months ago I got numerous pills + MDMA all tested of course. 
I gave a person their first time starting off with 100mg and honestly it hardly affected them and throughout the night they consumed 500-600mg in total which is a lot I know but looking back on that compared to Pre-Safrole ban just doesn't add up. 

I remember 100mg back in the day was heaps, would have you rolling hard for hours on end and today's stuff seems to last a lot less , doesn't produce that profound happiness and waves of pleasure running up and down your body. I no longer get the feeling to hug everyone, to explore or love. Not to mention I can remember myself struggling to take another cap or two over the night as it was so strong, yet someone who has never done drugs in general can take 500-600mg in a night and while they did this I never noticed what I used to notice with myself and friends.

The strongest MDMA I've had has not been imported, it's been made locally with Safrole and maybe it had more impurities that made it stronger or maybe there is something different about the synthesis's these days or even the precursors are causing an isomer to be imbalanced.  

I'm now suffering LTC from MDMA after the last time and i'll never do it again as I just don't trust it anymore and whether that's because I've done numerous high doses or MDMA over many years even though I normally take 3-6 month breaks in between, the after effects were so bad it wasn't worth it anymore.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Yo man so are you the guy I’m thinking of that rolled no problem for years and didn’t get the LTC til this new crappier MDMA started floating around?

I’ve always found your case interesting and further evidence in my opinion that LTC is possibly related to the overall change in product.

I think the need to take increased doses may also have something to do with it.  Saw on reddit today some kid who supposedly took .2g MDMA and 200ug LSD.. His pupils were barely dilated and he looked far too coherent lol.

Ah man..  Kids these dayz

-GC


----------



## EntheoDjinn

OK.  First of all thanks to the Bluelighters who have, and still are, avidly and actively pursuing this slippery issue.  As someone who cares about my health and is now in my 7th decade, I appreciate being able to read intelligent debate and argument that allows me to make an informed choice. As with most things in later life, moderation becomes a way of hopefully avoiding a slightly earlier demise or other malady.

Now to the point.  It seems many of the points raised and observations made cast up contradictions. Eye wiggle, peaks and troughs, dose variation, etc.  One thing I don't think has been considered (and I hope I just didn't miss it - I have read every post in this thread) - and it is only another symptom - is the so called "pilly-willie" effect.

Unsavoury a topic as it  may be, in true scientific fashion it needs to be considered.  So have any of the users of the so-called MehDMA or other newer productions requiring large doses experienced issues with erections or anorgasmia?  Or have consistent differences been experienced?


----------



## indigoaura

The comments from the MAPS participant are interesting. MAPS is using a strict 120 mg plus 60 mg dosage for those in the study. So, overall, under 200 mg. That user is describing the time dilation effect that I recall from rolling as well as the peaks and valley feeling that I recall. I suspect many of the old pills were a higher dose than the 120 mg MAPS is working with, so that may explain why this individual is not just floored. MAPS needs the participants to remain lucid and they want to avoid some of the side effects as well.

EntheoDjinn, I have brought up sex/sexuality in this thread at various points. I think most people have assumed that I am male, but I am actually female. So, while I cannot comment personally on the "pilly-willie" effect, I can say the following from observation:

From 2000 to 2002 I had one partner. He could not get an erection while rolling. We never had sex while rolling either. These were my earliest MDMA experiences. I had my first proper roll in April, 2000. They were very strong and memorable experiences, but they were not sexual. This partner and I were never very sexually charged (honestly, I think he was more into guys, but that is another story for another day). 

That partner and I broke up, and I began seeing someone else in the fall of 2002. The very first time we rolled together, it became immediately sexual. That partner and I had (have) a strong sexual energy in general. He was able to get and maintain an erection while rolling (lucky me), and our rolls together were always sexual. We rolled together for a long time, from 2002-2006 when the product changed and the effects became different. Our rolls were always similar and sexual through those years, even though the pills changed. We had one supplier. After the product changed, my partner eventually had to stop rolling all together because he was having other health issues and depression. Now I wonder if he actually had a LTC triggered by the new product. Hard to say. Whatever the case, he took a long break. However, recently, he tried some of this newer product and it was totally different. He could not maintain an erection like he had before and he did not have any empathy or feelings of connection. He described it as, "a collection of symptoms." It was actually that experience which really motivated me to start looking into all of this more, because someone with a many year break like him should have rolled harder/better than that.

So, in my partner's experience, the old stuff allowed an erection, but the new stuff does not. Now, I understand that getting an erection on E is a rarity, so he may be an anomaly in his experience. 

What has your experience been?


----------



## indigoaura

I will add this as well...

I have not personally ever been able to have an orgasm while rolling. But, for me, rolling was synonymous with being turned on. The whole time. It was a constant pre-orgasmic state. And, for my partner and me, this did translate to lengthy sexual experiences where we would listen to music and have sex on and off all night. It was a great time. But on this new stuff, there is no pre-orgasmic feeling. Music sounds blah. Laying around feels ok and there is no motivation for anything else.

There was another person who posted here awhile back and had a similar experience. His story was interesting because he had used ecstasy a long time ago, but his wife had not. So, she tried it and they had sex and it was great. Then they got a different batch of this meh-DMA crap and the magic/sexuality was gone. His wife felt the same way he did, which was an important data point because she was a new user but he was an old user. So, clearly, it was not simply tolerance.


----------



## G_Chem

Ok first off Indigo. I’m sure I’ve called you man more than once.. Never a correction? Lol, looking back I think I just assumed you were a gay guy.

Anywhoo.. About the erectile dysfunction I think that all is person dependent and mood dependent.  When I first started rolling I couldn’t get it up while on it but I also couldn’t get it up on a lot of substances. I was struggling with sexual identity at the time but as years wore on and I became more confident in knowing who I was they came on easier.

Now I definitely can no problem but to be honest I prefer it on the comedown portion.  When I’m peaking I wanna be dancing or chatting shit, either or..  I can always have sex at the end of the night still in that half rolly stage.

I know people that can’t though no matter what though.  I’d say more often than not people have a hard time, at least at the peak.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I try to be vague on these kinds of forums and not give out too much identifying info. People usually assume I am a guy. Maybe I like it on some level? Maybe I am a gay guy at heart? Possible...I have always found gender to be a bit ambiguous. 

In any case, I call everyone "man" whether male or female, as any good child raised on the ninja turtles would do. Never thought anything of it.

But, it now seems relevant to the conversation when discussing these sexual aspects of the drug, so it was time to clear it up. Apologies if anyone feels mislead, that wasn't the intent.


----------



## indigoaura

The MAPS guy said, "The medicine they gave me felt MUCH more lucid in the dream-like states of the peaks." I think it is interesting he is referring to the peaks as "dream like." I wonder if he is implying that he enters a semi dream state? I had an experience like that once, early on. Never thought it was MDMA though, always thought it was an unknown adulterant. I also wonder if the therapists are talking him into a dream state in some way, like hypnosis.


----------



## epic11

Hello hello!!

Ive now had those 2 batches subjectively tested in the real world. I can confirm that both batches from 2 different sources had the same effects. My testers claim they never really "got there"  Doses were 120mg. Everyone knows good mdma when it hits, and im not getting those types of responses on the mass market pure dutch mdma.

reminder: I purposely tried obtaining a safrole based mdma vs a pure dutch thats easily found. I was not successful on the safrole based product (i may revisit this now), so i went with 2 different people claiming "SUPER STRONG" mdma and another claming "pure dutch" mdma. Both batches looked the same, smelled the same (barely aniseed smell, but it IS there its just not that strong smelling) Slightly opaque. Its a beautiful looking product, but the real beauty is in its effects. And my subjects didnt seem overly impressed with it.

I myself have never abused the drug, always followed HR rules when it comes to wait times, dont take prescriptions of any kind, and my experiences are the same. Its just "ok" but im not BLASTING off like some stuff ive had prior. Theres something wrong, and this thread should continue.

Edit: If this is the state of mdma today, what dose do you think is needed as a starter? Super confused.


----------



## mysterygirlx

eh. it is just not the same anymore. I remember even up to just a couple years ago. The rolling waves, the glassy eyes and smiling not stop--- oh and of course the wetness/being turned on. 
Now everything I get is too speedy. There are no waves of ecstasy (I mean that was what the drug is called right ). There is a lot of the "cleaning of the system" the next day. Do they now cut it with laxatives I wonder?!
My husband continues to like to do it sometimes but I turned it down the other night just because- I don't want 2 days of not feeling well afterwards. 
Not worth it anymore.


----------



## Simosom

The rolling waves, what's that?? I totally forgot about mdma rolling waves till couple of days back when I have tried lsd for first time. Deff no rolling waves with mehdma.


----------



## G_Chem

Just givin ya shit Indigo  in the end it doesn’t matter much.

@epic11 - So are you saying that product you enjoyed other people didn’t?  Did any of those batches turn out to be good that were advertised as such?

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 IMO, no dosage increase will fix it. I either think there is an adulterant that is binding to/blocking receptors, inhibiting transport etc. OR it is a completely different drug that is close enough to fool tests. I know I have tried to increase the dose with the supply I have, and it never pushes me over the threshold. All it does is increase the negative side effects.

@mysterygirlx I have also experienced the stomach issues you are talking about. I am literally sick (physically sick) for several days afterwards (nausea, indigestion etc). Does your husband have this effect as well?


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

I have never used any sort of research chemicals (abbreviated as RCs), MDMA/MDA, or any MDxx drugs.  My friends that have said how a lot of what's sold as MDMA is not pure MDMA/MDA and that a lot of pills/powders are cut with methamphetamine, research chemicals, and completely different drugs, and how the pills/powders do contain some MDMA/MDA, so this shows up during a reagent test; but how the RCs, meth, and other drugs do not necessarily show up.

The people I know who have taken MDMA/MDA, most of them anyway, did not go crazy with it and kept their use to once a year or 2-3X a year max.  I know two people who really actually did take MDMA/MDA daily for well over a year or two, and another friend who took MDA while dancing at discos on weekends in the 1970s and 1980s. They all experienced burn-out and 'lost the magic' of the drugs, and the people who took it every single day for a year or more have major issues with their short and long term memories, moods, depression, etc.


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

epic11 said:


> Hello hello!!
> 
> Ive now had those 2 batches subjectively tested in the real world. I can confirm that both batches from 2 different sources had the same effects. My testers claim they never really "got there"  Doses were 120mg. Everyone knows good mdma when it hits, and im not getting those types of responses on the mass market pure dutch mdma.
> 
> reminder: I purposely tried obtaining a safrole based mdma vs a pure dutch thats easily found. I was not successful on the safrole based product (i may revisit this now), so i went with 2 different people claiming "SUPER STRONG" mdma and another claming "pure dutch" mdma. Both batches looked the same, smelled the same (barely aniseed smell, but it IS there its just not that strong smelling) Slightly opaque. Its a beautiful looking product, but the real beauty is in its effects. And my subjects didnt seem overly impressed with it.
> 
> I myself have never abused the drug, always followed HR rules when it comes to wait times, dont take prescriptions of any kind, and my experiences are the same. Its just "ok" but im not BLASTING off like some stuff ive had prior. Theres something wrong, and this thread should continue.
> 
> Edit: If this is the state of mdma today, what dose do you think is needed as a starter? Super confused.


What do you mean by 'pure Dutch' MDMA? That it was synthesized and smuggled from the Netherlands/Benelux?


----------



## NewTopic

Yes @G_Chem that was more then likely me. 
The last time I remember having those great experiences were around 2014, from there it just seemed to be an ever increasing dose to get desirable effects that although were similar it wasn't the same. 

I remember every time hugging my friends and saying how much I appreciated everyone, eyes rolling in the back of my head, teeth chattering and the waves of euphoria washing over. Now I'd just sit there, not wanting to move, teeth clenched, leg moving constantly and a slight amount of euphoria / out of it.. and maybe I'm just fried beyond return from taking higher doses but surely that isn't the case with everyone especially people new to MDMA not getting the same level of feelings. 

100-150 was a strong dose, now it's more like 200-250, but even then.. it's still not quite the same, different feel so there strong in different ways not the same way.


----------



## Brnoxoxo

Ok, so a lot of you say that people today go for higher doses of MDMA. Do we have any evidence (hard data, statistics) that average dose consumed by user "back in the day" was lower? And if we do, can we see similiar dosage increase in other party drug subcultures (cocaine, meth,...)? This won't solve anything, but it can serve as an evidence for possible future research led by professionals into this topic.
Also, I have to admit that even if someone finds the evidence of average dosage increase of MDMA, it may be caused by low price (just as with alcohol - cheap alcohol = people are drinking more) or high dose pills (example: let's assume that we find evidence of average dosage increase of MDMA, but not an increase of average number of pills consumed during the night).
In my opinion I don't think that we can find the culprit of mehDMA. There are too many factors and we have limited options (legally, economically,...). I would suggest to gather available data that will support that something has changed during the last x years and MDMA has turned into mehDMA. When / If we get enought evidence (and again, I'm talking about data, statistics) to support that statement, we can contact research labs, universities to test this theory.


----------



## EntheoDjinn

*@ indigoaura - how was it for me? *

Well, first of all I don't think I've ever had the MehDMA personally, although I think I have a tiny amount in my possession (I'll come back to that). I've been lucky to have had the 'real thing' since my first experience some 20 years ago. I always felt that if my penis shrunk until it was almost non-existent and my pupils expanded like saucers then I was looking at a good roll.  This has been my consistent experience.  145mg is the sweet spot for me with a top up of around 40mg around an hour and a half later. The experience would last around 4-5 hours. Fortunately around the time I discovered  MDMA I met my soul mate and we are still nuts about each other 20+ years later. Fortunately around that time Viagra became available and the 'pilly-willie' (such a silly term) became irrelevant. I would always experience anorgasmia which I saw as a huge benefit - sex would last for the duration of the roll. I think I have naturally high levels of serotonin or whatever so come-downs for me are barely noticeable.  I do notice very slight memory issues for about 3 months after though - nothing too concerning, just names and odd words. I am at the age where age-related memory loss does start to become apparent. Oh - and I almost forgot the eye-wiggle. My partner has similar experiences to what you reported in terms of being turned on.

Now to the MehDMA. Someone to whom I gave a lift home after a party rewarded me with a chunk of crystal he said was "not the best MDMA but OK".  That evaluation is very telling! I haven't tried this yet and after following this thread from its inception I really don't think I want to.  I'll wait until some good stuff comes around. I have however shared some of this MDMA with friends and they report that they need to take around 200+mg to feel "pleasant". Hardly any pupil dilation, no jaw clenching and no feeling of being "whacked".  Seemed to last much longer than I would have expected - around 7-8 hours.  No great hangover or comedown though.  Pleasant afterglow the next day or two. It actually sounds as if it's somewhere in the middle of the MagicMDA and MehDMA. But in my experience proper MDMA is always magic! (unless of course you've been at it every day/week etc. for a substantial period)

I realise that there are huge idiosyncratic and subjective elements in all this, but there does seem to be a distinct difference.  At first I was very reticent about giving this to my friends but there was a shortage and they said they enjoyed the experience and wanted to repeat it.  I did tell them right at the start that I was reading this thread and was concerned about the side/after effects.  None of them experienced great disappointment, just "mild" disappointment that the experience was weak compared to "the old days".

I don't live too far away from Europe so it is possible it came from there - maybe the Nederlands but who knows.

And with regards to the idea that the purity and doses were bigger in the past that was thought, I've always carefully weighed my powder/crystal with accurate scales.  If I weigh 140mg then I can only have at most 140mg of MDMA - and most likely less due to the disgusting but all to common practice of 'cutting'.


----------



## NewTopic

I believe there might be three truths to all this.
1. People's brains/body's aren't reacting in the same way due to increase use or not enough time between doses to fully heal.
2. Something is seriously wrong with the MDMA causing LTC's but could also be from more use as more availability.
3. There is different synthesis techniques and different precursors being used, causing different effects although similar not to the same.

I think it could be a mix of all the three but namely the last one stands out.
There has been numerous posts in this thread as well as my own experiences to suggest there is good MDMA out there but that begs the question as to why that MDMA is superior to another. Normally i'd have to take 200mg for me to be having a semi good time but even then very sub par in terms of 'desirable' effects, more stimulant then euphoria driven.

About a year or so ago I took 100mg after having a six month break and was completely floored,  sitting on the ground with visual distorted like the first time I ever tried the drug. Along with this was that lovey euphoria, trying not to be sick and I couldn't believe it but I didn't think I could have anymore I was that destroyed. But to me, that's what I remember all those years ago. There have been times sure that have surprised me at how strong some of the product is but it's just not quiet the same considering I felt that from 100mg not 200mg and still not the same feeling. 

In those early years I never felt MDMA to be a party drug as I have always used around friends at home, I never even wanted to move from the chair. 
So, as 'dutch mdma' comes into the picture, why wouldn't they want a product that is a stimulant to keep you going while you partied, not something to sit down and hug people ? Makes sense if your pushing a product. 

What I'm trying to say is, the dutch use a precursor and synth that is having that effect, while other places in the world such as Canada employ other means of synth due to product availability of safrole oil. The dutch get all the stuff from china, who is to say they aren't getting a specific isomer of the precursor and also why they have to put double the MDMA in the pills etc to feel the same.


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> Just givin ya shit Indigo  in the end it doesn’t matter much.
> 
> @epic11 - So are you saying that product you enjoyed other people didn’t?  Did any of those batches turn out to be good that were advertised as such?
> 
> -GC



No im saying anything recent ive taken has the same affect as everyone else. Its just not putting you there. (IVE NEVER ABUSED MDMA) In fact, i never said anything about myself enjoying a product that others didn't. Have a read again.

To simplify, ive sourced 2 different batches of mdma, one claims pure dutch, another claims super strong. Both look nearly identical, and both had the same effect with my testers. All verified as mdma with my kit. Not getting that "HOLY SHIT I LOVE YOU MAN" responses from this mass produced dutch stuff thats easily found. Id still argue both my batches are GOOD, but its all lacking something. Just like this thread suspects. I havent rolled in over a year at this point. I was getting subjective thoughts back from some people who tried it recently. I have mad self control.

So if i bomb 150 of this stuff, after waiting a year, and its just "ok" Its once again another big sign that something is wrong.


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 If you bomb 150 mg, please take notes. Watch your pupils. Write down when you comeup etc. At least we can add it to this growing database of effects and continue to compare/contrast similarities and differences.

@EntheoDjinn Sounds like we have had a similar experience. My partner and I have been together now for 17 years. Nice to explore the world of rolling with a friend and partner on a long-term basis.The anorgasmia was always a benefit, as you said, since it just turned the experience into an all night thing. I read some commentary not long ago about science behind the MDMA erection issues and why it effected some men but not others. I will have to see if I can find it and will post here.

Did any of you see this article? I thought it was an interesting development. https://futurism.com/the-byte/mdma-brain-puberty


----------



## G_Chem

epic11 said:


> Its a beautiful looking product, but the real beauty is in its effects. And my subjects didnt seem overly impressed with it.



This part right here is what had me confused.  Based on the way I read it, you found beauty in its effects when others didn’t..  After your response your last post makes more sense.

-GC


----------



## EntheoDjinn

@indigoaura.  

Thanks for the link.


----------



## Slangdealrz

I like well presented pills as well, but I have been fooled before when I didn't know much. Remember those White Butterflies that were really used for menstrel  cramps. Just saying


----------



## Hilopsilo

NewTopic said:


> I believe there might be three truths to all this.
> 1. People's brains/body's aren't reacting in the same way due to increase use or not enough time between doses to fully heal.
> 2. Something is seriously wrong with the MDMA causing LTC's but could also be from more use as more availability.
> 3. There is different synthesis techniques and different precursors being used, causing different effects although similar not to the same.
> 
> I think it could be a mix of all the three but namely the last one stands out.
> There has been numerous posts in this thread as well as my own experiences to suggest there is good MDMA out there but that begs the question as to why that MDMA is superior to another. Normally i'd have to take 200mg for me to be having a semi good time but even then very sub par in terms of 'desirable' effects, more stimulant then euphoria driven.
> 
> About a year or so ago I took 100mg after having a six month break and was completely floored,  sitting on the ground with visual distorted like the first time I ever tried the drug. Along with this was that lovey euphoria, trying not to be sick and I couldn't believe it but I didn't think I could have anymore I was that destroyed. But to me, that's what I remember all those years ago. There have been times sure that have surprised me at how strong some of the product is but it's just not quiet the same considering I felt that from 100mg not 200mg and still not the same feeling.
> 
> In those early years I never felt MDMA to be a party drug as I have always used around friends at home, I never even wanted to move from the chair.
> So, as 'dutch mdma' comes into the picture, why wouldn't they want a product that is a stimulant to keep you going while you partied, not something to sit down and hug people ? Makes sense if your pushing a product.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is, the dutch use a precursor and synth that is having that effect, while other places in the world such as Canada employ other means of synth due to product availability of safrole oil. The dutch get all the stuff from china, who is to say they aren't getting a specific isomer of the precursor and also why they have to put double the MDMA in the pills etc to feel the same.



I think they're either unknowingly creating some slight variant, and even if they know, they by default are going to go to the cheapest, easiest and most convenient production scheme. So long as what they make tests as MDMA and provides effects like that of MDMA within reasonable doubt (as oppose to some cathinone garbage that is OBVIOUSLY not MDMA in its effects), which i do think the MehDMA provides, its just close enough that you can easily second guess yourself while you're on it just due to the nature of entactogens i think. But when it IS the real shit, there is no doubt in your mind, its inconceivable.

Thats a great point about the LTC thing. I'm not sold on the hypothesis that the MehDMA has anything to do with LTC directly. I think its more likely that the sheer availability and cheapness of the stuff lends itself to be abused more, people talk more about "picking up a g" for the night rather than getting their cap and eating it. As well, maybe the lack-luster quality of the effects lends itself to users taking more and more to get where they want. the most striking thing about the magic MDMA is that when you're on it, say 100mg, and you're in "your place", the thought of taking more is sooooo not something you're even considering, its unnecessary; you're in a perfect place why would you want to alter that? Why bother? Theres a reason MDMA has historically been taken as a single oral dose for the most part.


----------



## NewTopic

Hilopsilo said:


> I think they're either unknowingly creating some slight variant, and even if they know, they by default are going to go to the cheapest, easiest and most convenient production scheme. So long as what they make tests as MDMA and provides effects like that of MDMA within reasonable doubt (as oppose to some cathinone garbage that is OBVIOUSLY not MDMA in its effects), which i do think the MehDMA provides, its just close enough that you can easily second guess yourself while you're on it just due to the nature of entactogens i think. But when it IS the real shit, there is no doubt in your mind, its inconceivable.
> 
> Thats a great point about the LTC thing. I'm not sold on the hypothesis that the MehDMA has anything to do with LTC directly. I think its more likely that the sheer availability and cheapness of the stuff lends itself to be abused more, people talk more about "picking up a g" for the night rather than getting their cap and eating it. As well, maybe the lack-luster quality of the effects lends itself to users taking more and more to get where they want. the most striking thing about the magic MDMA is that when you're on it, say 100mg, and you're in "your place", the thought of taking more is sooooo not something you're even considering, its unnecessary; you're in a perfect place why would you want to alter that? Why bother? Theres a reason MDMA has historically been taken as a single oral dose for the most part.



Couldn't have said it better. 
The problem is also that many people are now used to taking a lot more as well , for someone who is new to MDMA taking 200mg might be the norm to get similar effects and they won't know the difference from the MagicMDMA because they never had it beforehand so to them MehMDMA is 'MDMA'. 

People who have been taking it for years tend to see the difference while new people still write great reviews because it still gives them in their mind desirable effects. 
I can remember me giving one of my good friends 50mg for his first time and him being blown away with the intensity of the 'lovey dovey effects' but to watch someone recently for the first time take 150mg or so and go on through the night to take 500mg like it was nothing just seems odd. Although they had a good time, which is great you could tell they weren't in that same headspace, stimulated effects but no intense euphoria/love.


----------



## Buzz Lightbeer

For what it's worth I've had the so called MehDMA as well. At a festival, me and my friend went through a whole gram, we didn't know that much about drugs back then..

It was fun, but nowhere near as nice as some earlier pills I had had (this was my third time taking, each roll spaced out at least 6 months), we partied a lot, but we were quiet, in our own world, even a little dysphoric at times. Ever since then I never did it again, I want to, but I want to be sure it's quality MD. That particular batch was given to us as 'this is real good stuff!!'
The thing is, I don't trust people's judgement with it any more, it seems like they don't know it sucks.


----------



## indigoaura

I have watched several first timers take MDMA. Used to, first time users were so visibly affected that there was concern about being out in public. I used to see a lot of rubbing (rubbing hands on legs, rubbing hands through hair), wide eyes, hugs, nudity. I remember giving one friend some "okay" pills back in the day and she ended up naked in my yard running around while I tried to coerce her back inside. 

I have photos too. People's jaws were seriously messed up. You can look at an old photo and easily tell who is rolling, just from a pic due to the jaw position and the eyes.

With MehDMA, a new user once looked at me and shrugged and said it was "nice, I guess." People go out in public and nothing seems different about them visually. Eyes, jaw, behavior is all pretty much the same.

We are kind of talking in circles, but it is hard not to. We all seem to be on basically the same page about the differences. We have either felt them ourselves or seen them in other people, or both. Tolerance does not explain it.


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

indigoaura said:


> I have watched several first timers take MDMA. Used to, first time users were so visibly affected that there was concern about being out in public. I used to see a lot of rubbing (rubbing hands on legs, rubbing hands through hair), wide eyes, hugs, nudity. I remember giving one friend some "okay" pills back in the day and she ended up naked in my yard running around while I tried to coerce her back inside.
> 
> I have photos too. People's jaws were seriously messed up. You can look at an old photo and easily tell who is rolling, just from a pic due to the jaw position and the eyes.
> 
> With MehDMA, a new user once looked at me and shrugged and said it was "nice, I guess." People go out in public and nothing seems different about them visually. Eyes, jaw, behavior is all pretty much the same.
> 
> We are kind of talking in circles, but it is hard not to. We all seem to be on basically the same page about the differences. We have either felt them ourselves or seen them in other people, or both. Tolerance does not explain it.


Did your neighbours see the nude woman? That sounds more like she was on meth since she became completely uninhibited, and stripped nude like that.


----------



## indigoaura

No, no one saw her. We had a wood privacy fence and it was the middle of the night.

It wasn't meth.

If you've never had ecstasy that made you want to take all your clothes off, then I feel a bit sorry for you. It happened to me almost every time I did it.

As I have stated more times that I can count in this thread, the pills that I had "back in the day" were sent in to ecstasydata.org. At the time it was the Dancesafe lab and it was free to send pills in. They were not meth. They were MDMA. The pills that I did not send in to the lab were reagent tested and, again, not meth. Meth turned orange on the testing kits. I have had some pills with meth in them. You could not sleep and were up all night and unable to relax. That only happened a few times, but it was obvious on the reagent kit and by the effects.


----------



## G_Chem

Coming down right now but 100% agree with Indigo on that one...  It is not strange in the slightest for someone to strip naked as the day they were born.  I used to go to this Festival that was held at a nudist campground.  The shit ive seen.. lol

-GC


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

indigoaura said:


> No, no one saw her. We had a wood privacy fence and it was the middle of the night.
> 
> It wasn't meth.
> 
> If you've never had ecstasy that made you want to take all your clothes off, then I feel a bit sorry for you. It happened to me almost every time I did it.
> 
> As I have stated more times that I can count in this thread, the pills that I had "back in the day" were sent in to ecstasydata.org. At the time it was the Dancesafe lab and it was free to send pills in. They were not meth. They were MDMA. The pills that I did not send in to the lab were reagent tested and, again, not meth. Meth turned orange on the testing kits. I have had some pills with meth in them. You could not sleep and were up all night and unable to relax. That only happened a few times, but it was obvious on the reagent kit and by the effects.


I have never taken MDMA/MDA any MDxx designer drugs, meth, or any research chemicals like 2C-B as those drugs do not interest me at all.  I was way more into mushrooms, acid, and pot.

I have friends who take MDMA/MDA and they said how even though their pills/powders/crystals were tested both via labs and test kits, and claimed to be MDMA or MDA on the test, that the high lasted a lot longer than pure MDMA/MDA and that there was some meth or amphetamine mixed in yet it showed up as being pure MDMA/MDA.

I do have friends who when they were on meth at night they stripped nude like that woman did both at the peak of the high, and during or near the comedown.


----------



## indigoaura

@PriestTheyCalledHim No offense intended, but unless your friends were somehow involved in the manufacturing process, how would they know for certain that the pills contained amphetamines? Amphetamines produce a clear orange response on marquis tests. I used to see results where it was almost all black with a little orange, and then you knew there were some amphetamines mixed in. 

MDA can last a very long time 8 + hours or longer, and can also feel pretty speedy, so maybe that is what they experienced.

Obviously, we agree that the labs and test kits may not be picking up on some new/unknown compounds/adulterants. However, labs test specifically for amphetamines and meth and that should show up. 

My ex used to have friends who claimed pills had heroin in them. This was a common myth at the time. The pills went in to the lab and they had no heroin in them. These guys even claimed that heroin was used in the manufacturing process. Also false. People claim all kinds of things that are not true all the time.

I have never sought out meth and used it on purpose. I can think of a few times that I think it may have been in my pills. I have also heard it can be very sexual, especially when mixed with MDMA. But, MDMA can be this way alone, and I can back that statement up with lab tested products and years of personal experience.


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

indigoaura said:


> @PriestTheyCalledHim No offense intended, but unless your friends were somehow involved in the manufacturing process, how would they know for certain that the pills contained amphetamines? Amphetamines produce a clear orange response on marquis tests. I used to see results where it was almost all black with a little orange, and then you knew there were some amphetamines mixed in.
> 
> MDA can last a very long time 8 + hours or longer, and can also feel pretty speedy, so maybe that is what they experienced.
> 
> Obviously, we agree that the labs and test kits may not be picking up on some new/unknown compounds/adulterants. However, labs test specifically for amphetamines and meth and that should show up.
> 
> My ex used to have friends who claimed pills had heroin in them. This was a common myth at the time. The pills went in to the lab and they had no heroin in them. These guys even claimed that heroin was used in the manufacturing process. Also false. People claim all kinds of things that are not true all the time.
> 
> I have never sought out meth and used it on purpose. I can think of a few times that I think it may have been in my pills. I have also heard it can be very sexual, especially when mixed with MDMA. But, MDMA can be this way alone, and I can back that statement up with lab tested products and years of personal experience.


Which MDXX drug produces more sedating effects that people assume is heroin or some sort of downer or sedative? Is it MDE? One friend of mine he and his girlfriend at the time said how the MDMA pills they had taken only 2-3X together, spaced out either 1-2x a year with half a year of no use in between or just once a year, reminded them of mushrooms but without the visuals, is that what the high is like? Or is the high from MDMA more like how you feel during/after an endorphin rush?

I had a friend who in the late 1980s took the drug ecstasy with his wife and he said how it was almost hallucinogenic in a way, but made them very open and loving towards each other, so was that MDA or MDMA?


----------



## G_Chem

The high from MDMA is hard to describe but a good roll is having the most loving understanding empathy you’ve ever felt in your life.  Everyone is your new best friend.  I literally had a girl seriously tell me I was her soul mate after 3 sentences before.

Due to the fact you genuinely love and trust everyone your barriers drop and you do and say things that you may not even tell close friends or loved ones.

It’s a very hard experience to describe.

As for the heroin thing, that likely relates to certain batches with impurities which cause sedating effects.  People would see those brown specs and think heroin but those specs were brown impure mdma.

-GC


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> This part right here is what had me confused.  Based on the way I read it, you found beauty in its effects when others didn’t..  After your response your last post makes more sense.
> 
> -GC




I see. Yes i said "beautiful LOOKING" meaning the actually mdma looks nice. Thats all i meant.


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

G_Chem said:


> The high from MDMA is hard to describe but a good roll is having the most loving understanding empathy you’ve ever felt in your life.  Everyone is your new best friend.  I literally had a girl seriously tell me I was her soul mate after 3 sentences before.
> 
> Due to the fact you genuinely love and trust everyone your barriers drop and you do and say things that you may not even tell close friends or loved ones.
> 
> It’s a very hard experience to describe.
> 
> As for the heroin thing, that likely relates to certain batches with impurities which cause sedating effects.  People would see those brown specs and think heroin but those specs were brown impure mdma.
> 
> -GC


Thanks for the description.  Mushrooms were that way for me.  I remember at the time taking them with a friend and we bonded and I thought I fell in love with his girlfriend at the time, who had not taken shrooms.  My friend said how MDMA was basically like mushrooms but without the visuals is this accurate? I know they are both completely different drugs.


----------



## nznity

no it's totally different. rolling accelerates your heartbeat, not that much like cocaine but still. you also sweat a lot,and u get energy from nowhere and can dance for 5 hrs straight without a break. i didnt believe in the loss of magic till today, so when you try mdma in the future, try not to do it that often otherwise you will start getting awful comedowns. try to read the guides in here, they've been written by generations of pill poppers so the info is very accurate. always test your stuff beforehand because there is a lot of fake pills going around. Safe Rolling.


----------



## Xorkoth

Mushrooms are very different.  Mushrooms are a full-blown psychedelic with the potential to go anywhere.  Set and setting are extremely important.  You felt powerful love when you did them and I've felt that too from them, but I've also felt isolation, fear, disgust, basically the entire range of human emotion.  MDMA, on the other hand, produces a feeling of openness and love, it forces itself in that direction (although occasionally you read about people having bad experiences from it, too).  It's an amphetamine so it increases your heart rate and stimulates you.  The mushroom experience is, IMO, much more complete and wholesome and also has the potential to produce religious-style experiences, whereas MDMA is more about a very specific type of feeling.  They're two extremely different drugs.


----------



## indigoaura

I am pretty experienced with mushrooms, 2CB, and LSD in addition to MDMA.

Very different.

For me...

On mushrooms, I am more likely to feel like I am connected to everything or I am everything and we are all one. Sort of a loss of ego. You can forget your body and merge with the world around you. If I am aware of my body on mushrooms, it tends towards unpleasant heaviness. I am aware of food digesting or aware of a tooth that needs a filling. As others already said, mushrooms can go in a positive or negative direction. 

On quality MDMA, my body feels good. Air feels good on my skin. Breathing feels good. Human touch feels good. You are not going to forget about your body on MDMA. It is a joyous celebration of what it means to be physical and human. Anything seems possible. I once wrote that I could believe in eternity because of MDMA. You love the people around  you. If you are with someone you already love, you can talk out things that may have been awkward otherwise. There is a pleasant rush, like a gentle roller coaster. It enhances the ego in the best way, and helps you to understand yourself.

Just my observations...


----------



## DylanSins

MDMA today is usually called "Rolls" . I usuallty dont trust anyone selling "Rolls" i prefer street name molly, its usually more pure and potent


----------



## G_Chem

I remember my first roll thinking to myself “monks spend their entire lives seeking exactly what I’m feeling right now.”  I remember feeling like I could die at that very moment and be happy because I had reached that ultimate state of mind that every human seeks in their entire lives.. Peace.  Peace like I didn’t know could exist, happiness I didn’t know could be felt, pure ecstasy.

That first roll was probably the pinnacle of my drug taking career and unlike my firsts with other drugs, I’m ok with the fact I’ll never reach quite that first experience again.  (I’ve gotten close though, and won’t give up on trying hehe.)  It was a state of mind that really only needs to be seen once.

Rolls after have always been pure magic but that first was on a level I’ve honestly never seen from anyone else before.  It was like my brain was just waiting for it, almost needing it to understand what happiness and love really is.

-GC


----------



## Aeon Psyche

I know what great rolls are, i never knew there was a different isomer though. But clean MDMA is still out there in pills, but it seems harder to find stronger ones imo. I prefer buying a gr of crystal over pills any day. And the shithead who put mcpp in my pills once still deserves a good kick in the nuts.


----------



## Aeon Psyche

I've lost the magic myself though, over abused it to much when i was younger. now i barely try to roll...6-APB was one of the best substitutes for euphoria but my serotonine receptors are damaged quite a bit.


----------



## ChronicGiggles

NewTopic said:


> I believe there might be three truths to all this.
> 1. People's brains/body's aren't reacting in the same way due to increase use or not enough time between doses to fully heal.
> 2. Something is seriously wrong with the MDMA causing LTC's but could also be from more use as more availability.
> 3. There is different synthesis techniques and different precursors being used, causing different effects although similar not to the same.
> 
> I think it could be a mix of all the three but namely the last one stands out.
> There has been numerous posts in this thread as well as my own experiences to suggest there is good MDMA out there but that begs the question as to why that MDMA is superior to another. Normally i'd have to take 200mg for me to be having a semi good time but even then very sub par in terms of 'desirable' effects, more stimulant then euphoria driven.
> 
> About a year or so ago I took 100mg after having a six month break and was completely floored,  sitting on the ground with visual distorted like the first time I ever tried the drug. Along with this was that lovey euphoria, trying not to be sick and I couldn't believe it but I didn't think I could have anymore I was that destroyed. But to me, that's what I remember all those years ago. There have been times sure that have surprised me at how strong some of the product is but it's just not quiet the same considering I felt that from 100mg not 200mg and still not the same feeling.
> 
> In those early years I never felt MDMA to be a party drug as I have always used around friends at home, I never even wanted to move from the chair.
> So, as 'dutch mdma' comes into the picture, why wouldn't they want a product that is a stimulant to keep you going while you partied, not something to sit down and hug people ? Makes sense if your pushing a product.
> 
> What I'm trying to say is, the dutch use a precursor and synth that is having that effect, while other places in the world such as Canada employ other means of synth due to product availability of safrole oil. The dutch get all the stuff from china, who is to say they aren't getting a specific isomer of the precursor and also why they have to put double the MDMA in the pills etc to feel the same.


In relation to point 1: I think your age may factor into this. I did a fair bit of MD in the 90s when I was a lot younger


----------



## AutoTripper

Hey everyone. Very interesting topic, I read this whole thread. Im very intrigued by this. I last took MDMA in 2005, just before my life was flipped upside down and destroyed by Lyme Disease.

But I abused ecstasy heavily in the UK, taking well over 3000 pills from 1996 to 2005, plus plenty of MDMA powder/crystal.

I have no doubt I have taken the very best pills/MDMA. 
I have recently acquired 2 modern Dutch pills- Bowsers, reported at 231 mg.

I plan to take some at the right time. I have acquired some psychedellic compounds for some vital psychotherapy to heal and release trauma and negative conditioning from long term illness- 1plsd, ALD-52, and LSD 25. I use cannabis every day (honegrown outdoor organic exclusively as I have the most extreme allergies and Im allergic to virtually all fertilisers.)

I took the 1plsd 3 times over 3 months ago, but I have not been well enough since to trip again. And Im really itching to try the ALD-52 for the first time ever.  But tripping is not easy when you are very ill, exhausted and in pain.

I also have a severe anxiety disorder, nothing to do with my past MDMA use, more recent from stress of illness over so many impossible years. This anxiety is making it harder for me to approach the psyches.
Lots of major emotional blockages and negative conditioned thought patterns to be shattered and freed.

And I decided that for my own particular situation, needs and history- that it may be hugely beneficial to revisit MDMA. As long as I can safely physically tolerate the substance now with my allergies (I cant even take vitamin pills), I genuinely believe MDMA can help me fastrack some major release of trauma and conditioning.

I hope and expect it to help with my anxiety disorder instantly, making it easier for me to approach the acid with an improved mindset. My current mindset is terrible, a catch 22 vicious circle, stuck in a rut. 

I have very little to lose. I am very underweight and chronically fatigued. 55kg, should be 67 minimum to 70.  So I will pretend 70kg is my bodyframe weight, but Im not sweating the precise numbers for dosage etc.

Im not going to buy into the OTT fear culture I see nowadays with MDMA. Maybe it is the modern MDMA, but we never used to make such a big deal out of it. 
Now people have a hernia every time someone takes more than 300mg.

I plan to take half a Bowser, but I would like to follow up with the second half, 60-90 minutes later, if I feel it wont be too much. Im not so keen on redosing only a quarter. 

Now...back on point! At 231 mg, on paper, these pills should equal the very best I ever took. Like those first ever Mitzis in 1997. 1 pill was enough for the entire night. I would love to know the dosage of those.

Many other amazing ones too. So after 14 years I will see how these Dutch pills compare, with intrigue. I shall report back if I feel I can add anything validly subjective.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Hey everyone. Very interesting topic, I read this whole thread. Im very intrigued by this. I last took MDMA in 2005, just before my life was flipped upside down and destroyed by Lyme Disease.
> 
> But I abused ecstasy heavily in the UK, taking well over 3000 pills from 1996 to 2005, plus plenty of MDMA powder/crystal.
> 
> I have no doubt I have taken the very best pills/MDMA.
> I have recently acquired 2 modern Dutch pills- Bowsers, reported at 231 mg.
> 
> I plan to take some at the right time. I have acquired some psychedellic compounds for some vital psychotherapy to heal and release trauma and negative conditioning from long term illness- 1plsd, ALD-52, and LSD 25. I use cannabis every day (honegrown outdoor organic exclusively as I have the most extreme allergies and Im allergic to virtually all fertilisers.)
> 
> I took the 1plsd 3 times over 3 months ago, but I have not been well enough since to trip again. And Im really itching to try the ALD-52 for the first time ever.  But tripping is not easy when you are very ill, exhausted and in pain.
> 
> I also have a severe anxiety disorder, nothing to do with my past MDMA use, more recent from stress of illness over so many impossible years. This anxiety is making it harder for me to approach the psyches.
> Lots of major emotional blockages and negative conditioned thought patterns to be shattered and freed.
> 
> And I decided that for my own particular situation, needs and history- that it may be hugely beneficial to revisit MDMA. As long as I can safely physically tolerate the substance now with my allergies (I cant even take vitamin pills), I genuinely believe MDMA can help me fastrack some major release of trauma and conditioning.
> 
> I hope and expect it to help with my anxiety disorder instantly, making it easier for me to approach the acid with an improved mindset. My current mindset is terrible, a catch 22 vicious circle, stuck in a rut.
> 
> I have very little to lose. I am very underweight and chronically fatigued. 55kg, should be 67 minimum to 70.  So I will pretend 70kg is my bodyframe weight, but Im not sweating the precise numbers for dosage etc.
> 
> Im not going to buy into the OTT fear culture I see nowadays with MDMA. Maybe it is the modern MDMA, but we never used to make such a big deal out of it.
> Now people have a hernia every time someone takes more than 300mg.
> 
> I plan to take half a Bowser, but I would like to follow up with the second half, 60-90 minutes later, if I feel it wont be too much. Im not so keen on redosing only a quarter.
> 
> Now...back on point! At 231 mg, on paper, these pills should equal the very best I ever took. Like those first ever Mitzis in 1997. 1 pill was enough for the entire night. I would love to know the dosage of those.
> 
> Many other amazing ones too. So after 14 years I will see how these Dutch pills compare, with intrigue. I shall report back if I feel I can add anything validly subjective.




Welcome to the forum and thanks for the info.

 Those bowsers seem to be a nice pill, however there could be a spread. You can see here one lab tested at 194, and another at 231. Theres a few more here: https://www.ecstasydata.org/results.php?start=0&search_field=all&s=bowser

Good to know there is a slight spread of dosage between them for safety reasons. Do these look like your pills?

Is your heart fine? Id imagine a strong heart is pretty necessary for mdma, would hate to have that factor in....

Everything else i must say i understand your reasoning. Good luck, stay safe and hydrated, and hope to see your thoughts on todays dutch stuff vs your memories.


----------



## trogere

AutoTripper said:


> Hey everyone. Very interesting topic, I read this whole thread. Im very intrigued by this. I last took MDMA in 2005, just before my life was flipped upside down and destroyed by Lyme Disease.
> 
> But I abused ecstasy heavily in the UK, taking well over 3000 pills from 1996 to 2005, plus plenty of MDMA powder/crystal.
> 
> I have no doubt I have taken the very best pills/MDMA.
> I have recently acquired 2 modern Dutch pills- Bowsers, reported at 231 mg.
> 
> I plan to take some at the right time. I have acquired some psychedellic compounds for some vital psychotherapy to heal and release trauma and negative conditioning from long term illness- 1plsd, ALD-52, and LSD 25. I use cannabis every day (honegrown outdoor organic exclusively as I have the most extreme allergies and Im allergic to virtually all fertilisers.)
> 
> I took the 1plsd 3 times over 3 months ago, but I have not been well enough since to trip again. And Im really itching to try the ALD-52 for the first time ever.  But tripping is not easy when you are very ill, exhausted and in pain.
> 
> I also have a severe anxiety disorder, nothing to do with my past MDMA use, more recent from stress of illness over so many impossible years. This anxiety is making it harder for me to approach the psyches.
> Lots of major emotional blockages and negative conditioned thought patterns to be shattered and freed.
> 
> And I decided that for my own particular situation, needs and history- that it may be hugely beneficial to revisit MDMA. As long as I can safely physically tolerate the substance now with my allergies (I cant even take vitamin pills), I genuinely believe MDMA can help me fastrack some major release of trauma and conditioning.
> 
> I hope and expect it to help with my anxiety disorder instantly, making it easier for me to approach the acid with an improved mindset. My current mindset is terrible, a catch 22 vicious circle, stuck in a rut.
> 
> I have very little to lose. I am very underweight and chronically fatigued. 55kg, should be 67 minimum to 70.  So I will pretend 70kg is my bodyframe weight, but Im not sweating the precise numbers for dosage etc.
> 
> Im not going to buy into the OTT fear culture I see nowadays with MDMA. Maybe it is the modern MDMA, but we never used to make such a big deal out of it.
> Now people have a hernia every time someone takes more than 300mg.
> 
> I plan to take half a Bowser, but I would like to follow up with the second half, 60-90 minutes later, if I feel it wont be too much. Im not so keen on redosing only a quarter.
> 
> Now...back on point! At 231 mg, on paper, these pills should equal the very best I ever took. Like those first ever Mitzis in 1997. 1 pill was enough for the entire night. I would love to know the dosage of those.
> 
> Many other amazing ones too. So after 14 years I will see how these Dutch pills compare, with intrigue. I shall report back if I feel I can add anything validly subjective.



For Lyme disease, I would start looking for a kambo practicionner if I was in your place. I have heard of good results with several treatments for Lyme.

I had 3 ceremonies of Kambo so far, I don't have Lyme, but several others problems and it gave a good relief.


----------



## AutoTripper

)


epic11 said:


> Welcome to the forum and thanks for the info.
> 
> Those bowsers seem to be a nice pill, however there could be a spread. You can see here one lab tested at 194, and another at 231. Theres a few more here: https://www.ecstasydata.org/results.php?start=0&search_field=all&s=bowser
> 
> Good to know there is a slight spread of dosage between them for safety reasons. Do these look like your pills?
> 
> Is your heart fine? Id imagine a strong heart is pretty necessary for mdma, would hate to have that factor in....
> 
> Everything else i must say i understand your reasoning. Good luck, stay safe and hydrated, and hope to see your thoughts on todays dutch stuff vs your memories.


Hello and thanks very much for the welcome and for sharing your thoughts and perspective. I have huge respect for all of you guys on this forum and the way you so openly, selflessly and humbly share info and experience to try and help others.

Firstly- yes my heart is in excellent health. I have been really lucky with a strong heart all of my life but it has been in particularly good shape over recent years, touch wood, with an excellent resting pulse ( anywhere in the low 40s to 60 bpm consistently over the years ).

I do vaporize cannabis daily and I can tell you all that vaporizing cannabis in particular as a delivery method is particularly beneficial and supportive towards heart health.
There is a specialist Heart Hospital in Israel which leads the Frontline in pioneering and researching new treatments and one of their primary treatments is actually vaporized cannabinoids for the treatment of many different heart conditions.

I have had acute infections in my heart with extremely severe symptoms on occasion and vaporizing cannabis at those times saved my life I am certain I quickly normalising my heart function and stabilising things until the infection could be treated.

I just share this now as it may be useful knowledge for MDMA user. It is an interesting idea that vaporizing cannabis may help strengthen heart health, function and stability in MDMA users.

Okay, that aside- The Bowsers look really good quality. Neat press, very shiny but not all over, indicative of crystal. Very crumbly too. I am extremely sensitive to even the most benign additives in supplements there are barely any supplements I can tolerate without adverse reaction.  Im just as, if not more apprehensive about the other unknown ingredients in ecstasy pills, as I am about how I may react to the MDMA itself.

But I am actually really happy that these pills are very clean and benign, hopefully binded with nothing but cellulose and a little colouring. Yes some variation in dosage reports over last 3 years, but consistent enough and recent ones are both over 200 mg. I trust these to be.   They dont resemble the duller, less gold Bowser on your link to Ecstasydata, the top most recent Bowser. This one is like mine, but I think in this photo it looks a bit more shiny and "laminated" than it actually is:








						Achtung, extrem hochdosierte XTC-Pille "Bowser" mit 231 mg MDMA! - sauber drauf! mindzone.info
					

Diese XTC-Tablette wurde von Checkit in Wien getestet und enthält 231 mg MDMA. Über 120 mg MDMA können zu viel sein. Nebenwirkungen wie „Kiefermahlen“, Augen- und Nervenzucken bis hin zu Krampfanfällen können auftreten. Bei Überdosierungen steigt die Körpertemperatur stärker an und es können...




					mindzone.info
				




One other thing, and I think I will probably try to examine and investigate this with all of you guys help a little more and this could also be very personal and revealing to this topic at hand- the smell of MDMA pills! I will never forget what the very best and purest ecstasy pills I ever had smelled like.  An indescribable but magical and calling aroma. It was intoxicating to me just smelling, and totally unmistakable and a true representation of absolute banging fire pills.

The very best pills I would have 2 in the palm of my hand and I would smell them overpoweringly arm fully extended. In particular I remember these tiny white Rolexes at the 2000 exodus Brogborough Festival (big 3 day outdoor UK old skool illegal rave type thing. Huge mindwarping event with INSANE drugs, especially E's, EVERYWHERE! I got some huge downloads of brain damage from those festivals in particular silly younger me  )...

Anyway the guy gave me the two white Rolexes, they were really tiny and had the strongest purest MDMA pill smell I ever experienced. They were probably some of the best pills at that festival and I double dropped them twice half an hour apart on the 2nd night on 2 tabs of acid. At least 600 mg of MDMA, those Rolexes HAD to be an easy 150mg or more, even back then. There was one death reported that weekend of a girl who took one of those pills.
Yes, I was 100% fucked. But really okay though. NOT close to death. Not afraid of acute danger etc. Just well hardcore psychonauting (-Im not advocating btw, and Im not proud. Just dead honest sharing)

Over 3 nights, 10 pills, 1 MDMA capsule, 5 Lsd trips, Mushroom tea, 1 1/8th each of the best Skunk, Pollen, and hash.....left me with some obvious brain damage. The pills were phenominally potent.

So anyway, the smell. I can think back to so many separate occasions over many years when I had otherworldly incredible ecstasy pills which were the purest and cleanest you could get and I literally couldn't fail to notice this amazingly overpowering and distinctive aroma.  I recall double dropping Yellow Bentley's (B) in 2003. They were astonishingly good and again I smelled them from the palm of my extended arm to an overpowering degree.

And in December 2000, some phenomenally good Smiley Faces came onto the scene in the UK. They were old Skool. The very first batch we got, slightly blue tinted, when my mate arrived that night with 10 wrapped in a Rizla they were stinking the room out as soon as he pulled it out of his coat, to the same degree and manner as some incredibly potent weed where you immediately know you have got some banging drugs which get your spine tingling smell alone.

All that said though I do think I have experienced amazing and pure ecstasy pills which did not appear to smell very much maybe how they were pressed I'm not sure but I think there are exceptions, obviously difficult for me to be objective about this point now after so long.

Anyway, I CAN smell the Bowsers, just about detecting something that brings back memories- the chemically, amphetamine aroma. But it is nowhere near as powerful or reminiscent, or stimulating as I would expect it to be.

So I will be really interested to make some enquiries on this and see what other people's experiences in this regard in relation to their own memories and perceptions from the past etc. Maybe this modern MDMA and pills wont have this characteristic??  I think this could be really relevant and revealing here.









trogere said:


> For Lyme disease, I would start looking for a kambo practicionner if I was in your place. I have heard of good results with several treatments for Lyme.
> 
> I had 3 ceremonies of Kambo so far, I don't have Lyme, but several others problems and it gave a good relief.


Hello and thanks very much. Yes I have heard of Kambo. Used on Ayahuasca retreats. I know of an excellent, recommended Kambo practioner. My Lyme Disease- the infection that actually causes it was fully cleared 2 years ago. However lyme disease is not an infection but the condition which results from that particular bacteria which is strongly alleged to have been biologically engineered on Plum Island, New York.

Lyme Disease is effectively dysregulation of the immune and nervous system, and is incredibly hard to correct no matter how much money you have at your disposal.

My own case has been a real Catch 22 because I am allergic or intolerant to virtually every type of supplement and herbal healing remedy out there. I have never known such an extreme case of over reactivity to everyday harmless substances and foods.
I am exceptionally sensitive to Toxic and harmful compounds and chemicals such as tobacco smoke I cannot go anywhere near passively especially in an enclosed area even for seconds.

So it has proven to be impossible for me so far to rebalance and restore normal functioning of my immune and nervous system it's a really complicated all-round scenario and I continue to work on what I can within my limitations but I am trying to switch my focus to mental and emotional health and healing which has suffered tremendously over recent years.

The amount of negative conditioning, trauma and morbid, hopeless thought patterns, longstanding emotional blockages which Im unable to affect or shift from my mind, is making progress especially on a physical level impossible currently.

And in my physical condition and level of exhaustion, plus severe anxiety, I cant get right enough to trip. I have a lot of anxiety about tripping currently due to these factors but I do not have any anxiety about the MDMA experience and never have done approaching it as long as I can tolerate it's well enough physically to be safe and comfortable.

And it is for these reasons that I have decided confidently that MDMA could be extremely beneficial for me here. I will just let it do its thing, I won't fight it or stand in the way or try to be too proactive or conscious about the process just allow the release and resetting to happen which I think will be faster and easier with MDMA initially vs LSD.

And I don't plan to go overboard on it regarding dosages and frequency but I expect to be fairly flexible and free with myself over time depending on what I feel may be beneficial and worthwhile, depending on physical tolerance allergy-wise of course.

I am certainly interested in the kambo treatments and I hope to make some enquiries in future to see if it might be worth while.

Massive thanks guys. Have a great weekend.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> )
> 
> Hello and thanks very much for the welcome and for sharing your thoughts and perspective. I have huge respect for all of you guys on this forum and the way you say openly I have huge respect for all of you guys on this forum and the way you say openly, selflessly and humbly share info and experience to try and help others.
> 
> Firstly- yes my heart is in excellent health. I have been really lucky with a strong heart all of my life but it has been in particularly good shape over recent years, touch wood, with an excellent resting pulse ( anywhere in the low 40s to 60 bpm consistently over the years ).
> 
> 
> 
> So anyway, the smell. I can think back to so many separate occasions over many years when I had otherworldly incredible ecstasy pills which were the purest and cleanest you could get and I literally couldn't fail to notice this amazingly overpowering and distinctive aroma.  I recall double dropping Yellow Bentley's (B) in 2003. They were astonishingly good and again I smelled them from the palm of my extended arm to an overpowering degree.
> 
> And in December 2000, some phenomenally good Smiley Faces came onto the scene in the UK. They were old Skool. The very first batch we got, slightly blue tinted, when my mate arrived that night with 10 wrapped in a Rizla they were stinking the room out as soon as he pulled it out of his coat, to the same degree and manner as some incredibly potent weed where you immediately know you have got some banging drugs which get your spine tingling smell alone.
> 
> All that said though I do think I have experienced amazing and pure ecstasy pills which did not appear to smell very much maybe how they were pressed I'm not sure but I think there are exceptions, obviously difficult for me to be objective about this point now after so long.
> 
> Anyway, I CAN smell the Bowsers, just about detecting something that brings back memories- the chemically, amphetamine aroma. But it is nowhere near as powerful or reminiscent, or stimulating as I would expect it to be.
> 
> So I will be really interested to make some enquiries on this and see what other people's experiences in this regard in relation to their own memories and perceptions from the past etc. Maybe this modern MDMA and pills wont have this characteristic??  I think this could be really relevant and revealing here.



Glad to see you post so quickly! Thanks for your message. Glad to hear your heart is in good health, i imagine thats the single most important physical factor of this, dont quote me.....but it sure feels that way. 

Id like to touch on the smell topic as well. I completely agree with you about the smell factor and how you spoke about it here. While all this "meh-dma" certainly still smells like mdma (a black licorice smell), it doesnt overwhelm the senses like you say.

 The pills that have completely got me going, had a really pungent black licorice smell. Must stronger actually. Ive noticed this correlation in the past myself, but never really paid it much mind. Now that you bring it up i think its worth looking into. Why does some mdma smell SUPER STRONG of black licorice/aniseed, and this meh-dma is much fainter? Like i said, the mehdma has a black licorice smell, but its very faint when i compare memories of super strong rolls. The really good rolls smelled STRONGLY of aniseed/black licorice.


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper 

Thanks for bringing your observations to the thread. I can tell you are a thoughtful person with many valuable experiences to share. I think you and I were rolling at the same time. I had Rolexes as well during that same era. We had them here in Texas during 2001/2002. 

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=944 

I recall some super tiny pills from 2000 that were pink and had RR on the pill. They were very loved up and potent little pills. The guy who sold them called them Red Robins. Probably the smallest pills I ever saw, but so loved up. They had me talking intimately with a childhood teddy bear for hours. LOL

My observations about the smell are the same as yours. It was commonly accepted at the time that if pills did not smell right, you should not buy them. A tiny baggie with a few pills in it smelled STRONG. There was no mistaking the smell, and I could easily pick it out today if I needed to.

As GChem and others have suggested, perhaps there were active impurities in what was being sold at that time. Perhaps the MDMA was less filtered/pure and those impurities altered the experience in varying ways. I wish I had a pill left from that era to test. There are so many variables. Even if MDMA is safrole derived, there are variations in the type of tree the safrole came from. Perhaps there were active alkaloid variations?

Update on me: I am getting a new sample from the DW to try. This is one of the only products that I have ever read reviews where people talked about the quality of the product as opposed to the packaging and shipping. People commented that they thought they had lost the magic, but this product brought it back. Sounds promising, but I am not getting my hopes up. This one claims to originate in Europe, but it did not claim to be Dutch. We'll see.


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper This probably should be in a separate thread, but your health journey is interesting. My partner and I have also developed auto-immune issues including sensitivities to foods, additives, fragrances, chemicals, metals etc. Neither of us have been diagnosed with Lyme, but I have looked at DNA mutations for both of us. Are you able to identify when/how you contracted Lyme disease? I cannot help but wonder if there could be a connection between years of drug use and some of these autoimmune issues.


----------



## AutoTripper

Hi, thanks for your thoughts and insights. Just briefly on this then, it was 2004
I was bitten by a tick. My life, health and personality started changing gradually until May 2005 when the Borrelia Bacteria took full hold leading to full blown Lyme Disease.

Everything was flipped upside down overnight, with a trillion different debibilitating issues and symptoms, including adverse reactions to virtually everything I ingest to this day.

However, I have certainly considered before that my OTT substance abuse, at least in particular long term neglect/ignorance of gut microbial balance and subsequent major dysbiosys (which was actually the final straw in the development of the lyme disease after two courses of antibiotics for the frequent chest infections I Began to suffer which took my healthy gut flora down to such a low level that the pathogens could easily take over and set up a whole new system.)

But many other ways too that drug use could have contributed, by "setting the field."
If I had not been bitten by that tick though and contracted Lyme disease then I am absolutely certain I would have been able to go on living my life in consummate ease comfort and joy compared to how it has been and this is even after having obliterated my brain with heavy ecstasy use and many other drugs.

And if my nightmare allergies and multiple conditions were cured tomorrow I would be over the moon and I could see myself living a very happy fulfilling existence despite the cognitive impairment and damage I have inflicted upon myself and just accept without even recognising anymore.

Just to put things in perspective at least I would not consider my life ruined at all if not for this cursed illness.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> @AutoTripper This probably should be in a separate thread, but your health journey is interesting. My partner and I have also developed auto-immune issues including sensitivities to foods, additives, fragrances, chemicals, metals etc. Neither of us have been diagnosed with Lyme, but I have looked at DNA mutations for both of us. Are you able to identify when/how you contracted Lyme disease? I cannot help but wonder if there could be a connection between years of drug use and some of these autoimmune issues.



outside the scope of the thread, but id like to say that its pretty inevitable that a human body will begin to reject all these chemicals and fragances that are not found in nature eventually. If you just eat organic, dont use chemical bath products and soaps, you can pretty much avoid these allergies you claim. Nature is always right. Get away from dies perfumes or anything in laundry products too. No chemical dryer sheets. We are in fact an organic being, and we work with nature, not against it. Think about that.


----------



## DJTripNotic

Pmk oil is being used as a precursor instead of safrole


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 Of course, it is easy enough to manipulate what you encounter in your own home. We use organic products, detergents, and soaps here in our home. However, I have no control over what is used to mop the floor at work, or over what perfumes other people wear when I try to go to a movie theater. Honestly, seems like the more natural/neutral I become in my own environment, the more scents and chemicals bother me out in the world. It has gotten to the point with us where we have to pack our own sheets to hotels due to how we react to the sheets that the hotels use. Not exactly convenient.


----------



## Chonciceptor

indigoaura said:


> @epic11 Of course, it is easy enough to manipulate what you encounter in your own home. We use organic products, detergents, and soaps here in our home. However, I have no control over what is used to mop the floor at work, or over what perfumes other people wear when I try to go to a movie theater. Honestly, seems like the more natural/neutral I become in my own environment, the more scents and chemicals bother me out in the world. It has gotten to the point with us where we have to pack our own sheets to hotels due to how we react to the sheets that the hotels use. Not exactly convenient.


I definitely want to hear about your new DW product experience. I agree that all the stupid reviews have nothing to do with quality.


----------



## indigoaura

@Chonciceptor 

Nice to see you back. I was wondering what had happened with you and your wife. Did your old supplier ever show back up? I will definitely let you know how the new product is. Although I heard that some of the leading markets have closed with exit scams, so I don't know if I will be able to get it again even if I like it. That seems to be how it goes.


----------



## indigoaura

Ok, so, I have had my first look at this new DW product. I have never seen MDMA that looks like this before, ever, and I think it is in line with what Hilo called "magic MDMA" (by appearance only).

I will be posting photos in a bit, and I will be doing a full range of testing on it in a bit. But, right now, I can say that it is large, clear crystals. The crystals are transparent, and there is only a slight tint to the crystal. The crystals are very hard, and there is absolutely no smell at all. 100% odorless.

I have seen large crystals of MDMA before, but it looked completely different. That product was softer and crumbled more. It was not transparent, it was opaque and light brown in color. It also smelled like safrole. 

So, either this stuff is bullshit or it is super purified. The listing advertised it as being from Europe. I may try to reach out and find out what synthesis method was used, but not sure if the market is still up or not after all the issues recently.


----------



## indigoaura

Perfect reactions on Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin, & Simons.

Note that on Marquis the result was distinctly PURPLE to black, and not straight to black. 

Pic looks too pink. That is a white piece of paper in the back.


----------



## AutoTripper

@indigoaura hello again. That sounds promising for this batch. I do hope the experience is much more positive. And it would be a bugger in such a case if you cant get any more.

Ive no personal experience with the DW. I have intended to school and indoctrinate myself on the whole procedure but I have significant cognitive impairments due to an optic nerve injury and general illness and I struggle to learn and read and concentrate to understand new things.

It causes me the most extreme anxiety trying to grapple with the most simple tasks anything technical or computerized especially and Bitcoin has been very intimidating to me so far I don't even have any ID and that would seem to be a complicated process with no passport etc.

I may have saved myself the immediate need for learning these ropes by acquiring a sheet of acid elsewhere for a great price, plus some nn DMT for the first time ever, with the option of also getting some 5 Meo DMT, which is said to be very intense but hugely healing and rejuvenating.

So Im excited for those compounds. The issue with the trips for me is the commitment and longevity. Something I always valued about it in the past but in my current physical condition I just can't even consider embarking upon a trip right now.

If I even anticipate planning it for any such day I experienced really extreme anxiety about managing to actually eat some food beforehand that day at a sensible time and manage my respiratory symptoms, and have some energy left to even stand up let alone take acid lol.

And I have had the most god awful digestive and stomach upset permanently for so many months on end never feeling the tiniest bit comfortable and ok due to allergy and food complications etc. It's been really intense and extreme suffering 24/7 for quite a long spell now stuck in a real rut.

So the DMT makes sense for me to get that type of visionary and releasing experience I am in need of hopefully without it being such a commitment and a much more flexible and less anxious affair regarding planning and aftermath etc.


Anyway, on topic here: I forgot about yet one other surefire indicator people would use back in the day of old school MDMA pills to identify them as legitimate and powerful, was to touch the pill on your tongue briefly and if it was a really good MDMA pill you would feel an instant Fizz and tingle on your tongue which was so blatant and noticeable. 

It would let you know instantly that you had proper quality in an unmistakable fashion.

I have actually known people to sell their product this way walking around festivals touching it on ones tongue. At the 2000 UK brogborough exodus Festival the first pill I bought there on the first night was a "Shooter", I think it had some stars on it but some type of gun or cannon or something as well.

A young man I knew came abruptly and arrogantly up to me holding out this pill to my mouth saying only "touch".
I have not purchased any ecstasy at that festival by that point it was still early and I hadn't endeavoured or planned to by then although I'm sure it was always inevitable- I wasn't originally planning to attend the festival but ended up travelling there with a friend at the last moment on a Friday night but I started with acid that first night.

Anyway as soon as this shooter pill touched my tongue there was that immediate and unmistakable Fizz and I bought it straight away and it proved to be an exceptional e tablet.

I only took that one pill and two types of acids on the first night plus the most incredible ganja in the world back then at that place.

I already mentioned the white Rolexes above which I double drops twice half an hour parts on the second night after another two tabs of acid.

On the 3rd night I took 5 White Armani pills which were again the absolute best of the best of the best simply amazing plus an MDMA capsule.

So all 10 of those ecstasy pills were the top of the world standard, all really strongly smelly of safrole and with that fizz.

My Bowsers- I clumsily got a tiny spots of water onto one of them and it immediately started crumbling up and reacting a little bit on the surface.
They are very crumbly pills which is a good sign I think but since then the integrity of the outer layer of the pill is compromised and it is crumbling if touched or moved around so I'm keeping it still in a tin until the day.

But I did actually dab up a few crumbs onto my tongue last night.I didn't notice any such fizz or taste or reaction but it was only a very small amount.

Bizarrely I did feel like I experienced some mental effects from that tiny dab which sounds preposterous but I do believe in substances and matter having energy and being able to have an effect on the energetic level which can be noticeable despite being incredibly subtle.

I have experienced a lot of energy Healing in the past and worked with energy healers who could see energy and believed strongly in placing objects at various points on the outside of the body to absorb and utilise their power and energy for healing purposes without having to consume them.

This one particular man could genuinely see energy and was fascinated experimenting with various healing methods in this way.
One of his theories was that you could get the power of a pill by putting it on your forehead.

Anyway, I dont expect my Bowser pills to produce this fizzing effect. Given how crumbly they are I do not want to test it with my tongue on the pill because I'm sure it will begin to disintegrate if I do that.

But I'm curious if any of you remember experiencing this phenomenon in the past with old school pills or MDMA? The tongue fizzing?

And if you have tested any modern pills/MDMA this way?


----------



## jb99

My first E was Tunnel 1998 in NYC, age 15. I had an amazing time for a few years(twilo, SF/Pacha, reopened limelight, Exit, hosts of smaller clubs, etc). Rarely was it a letdown. It was the whole experience- music, friends, lights, crowd, and the 'forbidden' aspect of it all. But if I could do it again I would have waited until after college. I got into some bad scenes with harder stuff.

I haven't done mdma in over a decade and couldn't really conceive of seeking it out now. Wouldn't be the same, no matter the purity. In whole I just wouldn't enjoy it- although I would consider ketamine again.


----------



## G_Chem

Indigo congrats!.. You just sourced what you’ve been looking for!  That’s very pure product and if your gonna roll good I suspect that’s the shit that’ll do it for you.  If you don’t on that stuff, I’d write it off as tolerance.

Take 130-140mg (initial dose, 50-60mg booster dose) though just to be safe.  I have a feeling you need a bit more than average based on your past experience.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I think this is a great opportunity to test the "purple to black" vs. "black" marquis response. Everything else I have had my hands on in recent years has gone to black instantly, and it has not had that distinct change from purple to black.

I would have to go through my notes, but I think I have tried 135 mg to start on previous products. If this is super potent though, going higher than 135 could be a bit much. What do you think G-Chem? I'm abt 5' 2" and weigh around 130.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Oh really? Interesting.. I’m excited then too! Due to that color change compared to all the past I have high hopes.

I’d say go with 130mg plus 60-70mg like hour and a half in.  It may be a bit intense if your past stuff has truly been impure but nothing I don’t think you can’t handle based on past experience.  I also feel some of the lackluster product may possibly have raised your tolerance a bit despite not getting you quite there.

I’d also give 3-5 months between your last try.  And maybe try a few things that are supposed to help with tolerance.  NAC and Magnesium l-threonate are said to help restore one to that old feeling.  I’d use these up until like a week before your roll then stop.

You can never be too careful when it comes to ensuring a good roll 

Excited though, that stuff looks very similar to a lot of the best batches I’ve had.  Notice how the upper right crystal has that peak like the tip of a piece of quartz (if I’m seeing that right.)  Then overall you can see some nice flat edges and great clarity.  I know the pain of trying to get a good shot, I tried before but was near impossible to show with the camera I have.

When you plan on trying it?

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Honestly, my Iphone does better pics, but I do not feel comfortable using my Iphone for this type of stuff. My camera does weird things with the color balance, despite my best efforts. I tried to film the marquis response, but the detail of the color reaction was completely lost.

Last time I rolled was NYE. So, I am 4 months out from that experience. I have been taking NAC for awhile now, but not every day. I take magnesium daily. 

I have a concert coming up that I was thinking about rolling for, but I don't know if I want to try this stuff at a concert. If I am floored, both the concert and the roll may be a wash. I'll just stand around feeling dumbstruck and won't remember what songs they played. LOL. That is coming up week after next. If not then, maybe over Memorial Day weekend? Otherwise, it would be into June. I kind of want to try it so I know if I should try to track down more somehow.


----------



## methyldreams

Shit kunts sell anything as mdma so there is no point doing any theorys based on effects


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Thats true but this thread is about product which tests as MDMA both via chemical reagents and lab analysis.


@Indigo- Same here, I’m not to trusting of taking pics on my phone neither.

Perfect on supplements and time.  You could probably roll whenever at this point.

Haha yea the show may be a blast but indeed good MDMA can make it all seem like a blur.  If your one to like to remember the show I’d either take less or wait.

Honestly if you wanna test the waters at a show, do like 110mg plus a 50mg booster.  That’ll probably be the perfect amount to get you feeling good but also not too floored to remember things lol.

What show? Or genre of music at least?

I just rolled like two weeks ago and I’ve been doing so much better mentally and motivation wise since then.  It blows my mind just how beneficial this stuff can be.  Sure I felt down for a day or two after but that quickly fades and I’m left feeling like I got a reset on life.

-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

Good evening all. Okay Im just testing posting images from my device, havent tried yet. So here are my Dutch Bowsers. Below you can see where I got a teeney driplet of water on one (don't ask lol) and it immediately compromised the integrity of the surface.  But in the sunlight, if you zoom in on it I think you can see the presence of crystal by the reflection.  Although to be fair the effect doesnt show here like it does on my camera app.  Really sparkly, rainbow like reflections.

I am babying it now lol as it crumbles easily on both sides.
I am excited to try them. I wasnt going to get my hopes up for a scinitillating, soul-chilling experience, just accept it with no expectations or particular hopes.

100% open to whatever type of experience it provides however great or small good or bad, no preconceptions or grounds for disappointment.

However, I spoke to a younger friend yesterday (about 32), he started taking ecstasy in 2003. From 2003 to early 2005, the quality and strength of the ecstasy pills around Bedfordshire UK was really quite good and especially so in 2004 and early 2005.

Playstations emerged in 2004. Very strong and clean and quite trippy as well. I would guess from my experience that they were a good 120mg upwards consistently.

And then even better were the Heineken stars. They were the best and strongest pills I took over several years at the time. I took 7 at one rave, plus 5 Hearts (prob about 80 mg but clean), after taking the whole gram of really wonderful MDMA crystal the previous night.

Those Heineken stars were exceptionally strong. They must have been at least 130 mg. Altogether over 2 nights, practically 2.5 grams of MDMA, several grams of ketamine plus acid.  I was off my face for the weekend until tuesday but generally fine, no recollection of a bad comedown just some midweek fatigue and lack of motivation then back to normal again.

Anyway, my friend was taking ecstasy at this time when there well lots of very high quality and high strength pills around.

Last night, I ran this topic by him- Old skool vs modern. He has taken the modern Dutch MDMA pills from the same friend and source mine came from.  So I asked his opinion. He expressed no perceptions of the modern pills being inferior.

He mentioned the blue Teslas which he first tried, maybe a few years back now. He just emphasised how he was rushing so hard, and super loved up. No different or worse vs pre-2005.

So Im not concluding anything from this. The obvious hypothesis is that he is just not subjectively aware enough of the differences or perhaps his memories of his past experiences have disintegrated.

I do appreciate that not everybody has my own ability to so finely and deeply tune back into trillions of past (drug) experiences, vividly, always 100% true to the detail on all points (at least, the breadcrumb snapshots my mind actually laid down and sewed in for re-accessing).
Like a massive database network/infrastructure to access and revisit different memories, in a simulation type fashion.

So this is likely a factor. Still, it does seem that people do still enjoy todays modern pills/mdma.  I will be happy for any type of enjoyable or positive experience, having no fun or excitement in my life ever.

So I probably will not be a very trusted subjective guinea pig myself on this topic but I will do my very best to make some accurate and useful observations and perceptions if I can to share here.


Edit- hooray, my images worked!


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper 

I think a common misconception in this thread is that we are saying that ALL new MDMA is bad. That is not the case. Your friend may simply be fortunate enough to have access to decent MDMA pills. Obviously, a lot of people have access to good stuff still.

The question is why SOME of the modern MDMA appears to be MDMA based on testing but produces a different result.

Also, you asked me earlier about whether I ever noticed fizzing related to good pills, and I forgot to reply. Sorry, but that was not something that I ever heard or observed. 

@G_Chem The band is MGMT, a very psychedelic alt rock group. Saw their show last year and it had amazing visuals and vibe.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> @AutoTripper
> 
> I think a common misconception in this thread is that we are saying that ALL new MDMA is bad. That is not the case. Your friend may simply be fortunate enough to have access to decent MDMA pills. Obviously, a lot of people have access to good stuff still.
> 
> The question is why SOME of the modern MDMA appears to be MDMA based on testing but produces a different result.
> 
> Also, you asked me earlier about whether I ever noticed fizzing related to good pills, and I forgot to reply. Sorry, but that was not something that I ever heard or observed.
> 
> @G_Chem The band is MGMT, a very psychedelic alt rock group. Saw their show last year and it had amazing visuals and vibe.


Thank you for Clarifying that perspective and actually that is how I was kind of picturing it except it didn't seem to be spelled out and laid down on the table in black and white.

So maybe any source, anywhere, pills or crystal, could be the good stuff. With the majority though being the apparently inferior batches. Real hit and miss, unpredictable and fishy.

So for all I know my Bowsers might be really quite good. Or Meh. Should be interesting, and I can kind of play it in numerous ways in my mind- like, it might be just average and not all that.  In which case, no real nerves, expectations etc.

Just going into it purely in the moment, which I might do less effectively if I knew for certain what to expect.

And that way if it does hit me really powerfully and surprisingly so it will be an unanticipated and more original experience.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> View attachment 11125
> 
> Perfect reactions on Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin, & Simons.
> 
> Note that on Marquis the result was distinctly PURPLE to black, and not straight to black.
> 
> Pic looks too pink. That is a white piece of paper in the back.



this is what all MEH-DMA looks like. Really good, but doesnt do what you need. Its a streamlined process now thats missing something as indicated from this thread.


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 

I certainly won't believe it is legit until it feels legit. However, the MehDMA I have tested has looked slightly different with marquis. It has gone to black instantly and never turned purple at all. So, there is a visual difference from my other samples.


----------



## vecktor

This thread is extraordinary for almost zero signal to noise ratio and it reminds me of the circular LSD purity arguments.
so I'll start with what I know.

3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine 3,4-MDMA and 2,3-MDMA are distinguishable by GC-MS, the GC bit does the separating. A DB5 or HP5 MS column which is pretty standard separates the two with the 2,3 isomer eluting first. The EI spectra of the fragments is not identical either.
https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf;sequence=1 page 56
This is my experience also with ortho para isomers. Labs identify by retention time AND spectra.

2,3 MDMA would require a 2,3-methylenedioxy precursor. These are commercially available but more expensive than the 3,4-methylenedioxy compounds, if 2,3 methylenedioxy MDMA was around then it is substitution by the chinese manufacturers of the precursors but most of the manufacturers also make the cheaper 3,4 methylenedioxy compounds, so it is very unlikely that 2,3 methylenedioxy is widespread.

Since 2009 2010 most PMK has been made from PMK glycidate and is plain old PMK, just the same as that made from safrole.  PMK itself smells similar to but lighter than safrole. People associate the safrole smell with good MDMA experiences and smell is great at evoking memories (of good pills) and contributing to set and setting. If someone was to spray lavender scent and then electrocute you eventually you would subconsciously associate lavender and being shocked, to the point where if you smelled lavender you would become stressed.

PMK glycidate which is itself made from piperonal will disappear in the next few years as the international restrictions on it bite. It will be inevitably replaced by something else (my guess would be one of the really obvious 4 carbon pre precursors) over time but there are clearly large stocks of PMK glycidate in producer areas already. There is not a one step reaction from pmk glycidate to MDMA but there are ways to do it in one pot, how common this is who knows, the current  forensic impurity profile fits with reductive amination of PMK with the PMK being isolated.  There is another theoretical route to MDMA from PMK glycidate which does not need conversion to PMK, there is no evidence in the forensic literature this route is being used.
PMK glycidate is chiral but the commercial product is a racemic mixture and in any case the PMK it makes is not chiral.

MDMA made by reductive amination of PMK with nitromethane(as an in situ methylamine source) or methylamine is racemic. MDMA made by reduction with a chiral amine is chiral, chiral amines like chiral N-alphadimethylbenzylamine would give chiral N-alphamethylbenzyl MDMA which on deprotection would give chiral MDMA. Nobody is going to do this as chiral alphamethylbenzylamine is expensive and the chiral precusor is used up. There are ways to make chiral amines using chiral catalysts but this is way out of the league of clandestine MDMA cooks.

Significant mercury in MDMA is pretty much a myth
Raman spectroscopy cannot detect parts per million concentration of mercury whether it is methyl mercury halide or dimethyl mercury.
ICP-MS or ICP-OES can detect down to parts per trillion of mercury but  I am not aware whether anybody has done this on clandestine MDMA.
Mercury in the form of mercury salts are used to amalgamate aluminium in the reductive amination of PMK this is generally a small scale route. the mercury ends up absorbed onto the aluminium and in the aluminium oxide hydroxide residues and it is in the form of elemental mercury, it is not converted into methyl mercury or dimethyl mercury. Amalgamated zinc has been used occasionally in pharmaceutical manufacture and the levels of mercury carried into the product are negligible.
the grey and brown colouration of impure MDMA means nothing it could be metal oxides, carbon or tar.
There is not commonly cyanide in cocaine either.

t-BOC MDMA and MDPH
There is no conceivable chemistry that can generate MDPH (methylenedioxyphentermine) from BOC MDMA, even the most inept clandestine operator can heat BOC MDMA with hydrochloric acid.
t-BOC MDMA itself is unlikely because it would need PMK or isosafrole to make it.
If there is MDPH methylenedioxyphentermine in circulation it is deliberate but I am highly skeptical quality of the source of the supposed data.

Things that are interesting but unexplained significance.

Pills aren't what they used to be.
in mid to late 2000s the Brabant Dutch manufacturers came up with a pill binder that is really good at binding pills making rock hard lumps but is not as good at allowing the pills to dissolve and disperse. I think it is polyvinylpyrrolidone co-polymer and replaced the earlier gum binders. This seems to be everywhere now. It has a couple of problems, it can bind stuff in solution further reducing availability and it also causes allergies in some people.

Crystals
There also appears to be some kind of bulking agent that can be crystallized with MDMA to make nice crystals which look pretty but are not pure MDMA.HCl  I have a good idea what it is but this shouldn't be public information.

Nostalgia will continue to be a big thing in the future and you can't swim in the same river twice meaning that people change much more than the drug does and the river flows on.
MDMA in general now back to being as good as it ever has been, MDMA contents of pills are pretty high up to 100mg which is much higher than the 90s the precursors are plentiful and have been since 2010, perhaps the drugs haven't changed, the users have and the world we live in has.

Pharmaceutical (GMP) MDMA as MAPS have was originally made by the Nichols group, by the reductive amination of PMK just like all the clandestine processes. The only real difference is they distilled the MDMA in the final step it is not complicated.


----------



## cj

vecktor said:


> This thread is extraordinary for almost zero signal to noise ratio and it reminds me of the circular LSD purity arguments.
> so I'll start with what I know.
> 
> 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine 3,4-MDMA and 2,3-MDMA are distinguishable by GC-MS, the GC bit does the separating. A DB5 or HP5 MS column which is pretty standard separates the two with the 2,3 isomer eluting first. The EI spectra of the fragments is not identical either.
> https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf;sequence=1 page 56
> This is my experience also with ortho para isomers. Labs identify by retention time AND spectra.
> 
> 2,3 MDMA would require a 2,3-methylenedioxy precursor. These are commercially available but more expensive than the 3,4-methylenedioxy compounds, if 2,3 methylenedioxy MDMA was around then it is substitution by the chinese manufacturers of the precursors but most of the manufacturers also make the cheaper 3,4 methylenedioxy compounds, so it is very unlikely that 2,3 methylenedioxy is widespread.
> 
> Since 2009 2010 most PMK has been made from PMK glycidate and is plain old PMK, just the same as that made from safrole.  PMK itself smells similar to but lighter than safrole. People associate the safrole smell with good MDMA experiences and smell is great at evoking memories (of good pills) and contributing to set and setting. If someone was to spray lavender scent and then electrocute you eventually you would subconsciously associate lavender and being shocked, to the point where if you smelled lavender you would become stressed.
> 
> PMK glycidate which is itself made from piperonal will disappear in the next few years as the international restrictions on it bite. It will be inevitably replaced by something else (my guess would be one of the really obvious 4 carbon pre precursors) over time but there are clearly large stocks of PMK glycidate in producer areas already. There is not a one step reaction from pmk glycidate to MDMA but there are ways to do it in one pot, how common this is who knows, the current  forensic impurity profile fits with reductive amination of PMK with the PMK being isolated.  There is another theoretical route to MDMA from PMK glycidate which does not need conversion to PMK, there is no evidence in the forensic literature this route is being used.
> PMK glycidate is chiral but the commercial product is a racemic mixture and in any case the PMK it makes is not chiral.
> 
> MDMA made by reductive amination of PMK with nitromethane(as an in situ methylamine source) or methylamine is racemic. MDMA made by reduction with a chiral amine is chiral, chiral amines like chiral N-alphadimethylbenzylamine would give chiral N-alphamethylbenzyl MDMA which on deprotection would give chiral MDMA. Nobody is going to do this as chiral alphamethylbenzylamine is expensive and the chiral precusor is used up. There are ways to make chiral amines using chiral catalysts but this is way out of the league of clandestine MDMA cooks.
> 
> Significant mercury in MDMA is pretty much a myth
> Raman spectroscopy cannot detect parts per million concentration of mercury whether it is methyl mercury halide or dimethyl mercury.
> ICP-MS or ICP-OES can detect down to parts per trillion of mercury but  I am not aware whether anybody has done this on clandestine MDMA.
> Mercury in the form of mercury salts are used to amalgamate aluminium in the reductive amination of PMK this is generally a small scale route. the mercury ends up absorbed onto the aluminium and in the aluminium oxide hydroxide residues and it is in the form of elemental mercury, it is not converted into methyl mercury or dimethyl mercury. Amalgamated zinc has been used occasionally in pharmaceutical manufacture and the levels of mercury carried into the product are negligible.
> the grey and brown colouration of impure MDMA means nothing it could be metal oxides, carbon or tar.
> There is not commonly cyanide in cocaine either.
> 
> t-BOC MDMA and MDPH
> There is no conceivable chemistry that can generate MDPH (methylenedioxyphentermine) from BOC MDMA, even the most inept clandestine operator can heat BOC MDMA with hydrochloric acid.
> t-BOC MDMA itself is unlikely because it would need PMK or isosafrole to make it.
> If there is MDPH methylenedioxyphentermine in circulation it is deliberate but I am highly skeptical quality of the source of the supposed data.
> 
> Things that are interesting but unexplained significance.
> 
> Pills aren't what they used to be.
> in mid to late 2000s the Brabant Dutch manufacturers came up with a pill binder that is really good at binding pills making rock hard lumps but is not as good at allowing the pills to dissolve and disperse. I think it is polyvinylpyrrolidone co-polymer and replaced the earlier gum binders. This seems to be everywhere now. It has a couple of problems, it can bind stuff in solution further reducing availability and it also causes allergies in some people.
> 
> Crystals
> There also appears to be some kind of bulking agent that can be crystallized with MDMA to make nice crystals which look pretty but are not pure MDMA.HCl  I have a good idea what it is but this shouldn't be public information.
> 
> Nostalgia will continue to be a big thing in the future and you can't swim in the same river twice meaning that people change much more than the drug does and the river flows on.
> MDMA in general now back to being as good as it ever has been, MDMA contents of pills are pretty high up to 100mg which is much higher than the 90s the precursors are plentiful and have been since 2010, perhaps the drugs haven't changed, the users have and the world we live in has.
> 
> Pharmaceutical (GMP) MDMA as MAPS have was originally made by the Nichols group, by the reductive amination of PMK just like all the clandestine processes. The only real difference is they distilled the MDMA in the final step it is not complicated.



I really want to understand the point your making. Could you dumb it down a little bit for me?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

vecktor said:


> This thread is extraordinary for almost zero signal to noise ratio and it reminds me of the circular LSD purity arguments.
> so I'll start with what I know.
> 
> 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine 3,4-MDMA and 2,3-MDMA are distinguishable by GC-MS, the GC bit does the separating. A DB5 or HP5 MS column which is pretty standard separates the two with the 2,3 isomer eluting first. The EI spectra of the fragments is not identical either.
> https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf;sequence=1 page 56
> This is my experience also with ortho para isomers. Labs identify by retention time AND spectra.
> 
> 2,3 MDMA would require a 2,3-methylenedioxy precursor. These are commercially available but more expensive than the 3,4-methylenedioxy compounds, if 2,3 methylenedioxy MDMA was around then it is substitution by the chinese manufacturers of the precursors but most of the manufacturers also make the cheaper 3,4 methylenedioxy compounds, so it is very unlikely that 2,3 methylenedioxy is widespread.
> 
> Since 2009 2010 most PMK has been made from PMK glycidate and is plain old PMK, just the same as that made from safrole.  PMK itself smells similar to but lighter than safrole. People associate the safrole smell with good MDMA experiences and smell is great at evoking memories (of good pills) and contributing to set and setting. If someone was to spray lavender scent and then electrocute you eventually you would subconsciously associate lavender and being shocked, to the point where if you smelled lavender you would become stressed.
> 
> PMK glycidate which is itself made from piperonal will disappear in the next few years as the international restrictions on it bite. It will be inevitably replaced by something else (my guess would be one of the really obvious 4 carbon pre precursors) over time but there are clearly large stocks of PMK glycidate in producer areas already. There is not a one step reaction from pmk glycidate to MDMA but there are ways to do it in one pot, how common this is who knows, the current  forensic impurity profile fits with reductive amination of PMK with the PMK being isolated.  There is another theoretical route to MDMA from PMK glycidate which does not need conversion to PMK, there is no evidence in the forensic literature this route is being used.
> PMK glycidate is chiral but the commercial product is a racemic mixture and in any case the PMK it makes is not chiral.
> 
> MDMA made by reductive amination of PMK with nitromethane(as an in situ methylamine source) or methylamine is racemic. MDMA made by reduction with a chiral amine is chiral, chiral amines like chiral N-alphadimethylbenzylamine would give chiral N-alphamethylbenzyl MDMA which on deprotection would give chiral MDMA. Nobody is going to do this as chiral alphamethylbenzylamine is expensive and the chiral precusor is used up. There are ways to make chiral amines using chiral catalysts but this is way out of the league of clandestine MDMA cooks.
> 
> Significant mercury in MDMA is pretty much a myth
> Raman spectroscopy cannot detect parts per million concentration of mercury whether it is methyl mercury halide or dimethyl mercury.
> ICP-MS or ICP-OES can detect down to parts per trillion of mercury but  I am not aware whether anybody has done this on clandestine MDMA.
> Mercury in the form of mercury salts are used to amalgamate aluminium in the reductive amination of PMK this is generally a small scale route. the mercury ends up absorbed onto the aluminium and in the aluminium oxide hydroxide residues and it is in the form of elemental mercury, it is not converted into methyl mercury or dimethyl mercury. Amalgamated zinc has been used occasionally in pharmaceutical manufacture and the levels of mercury carried into the product are negligible.
> the grey and brown colouration of impure MDMA means nothing it could be metal oxides, carbon or tar.
> There is not commonly cyanide in cocaine either.
> 
> t-BOC MDMA and MDPH
> There is no conceivable chemistry that can generate MDPH (methylenedioxyphentermine) from BOC MDMA, even the most inept clandestine operator can heat BOC MDMA with hydrochloric acid.
> t-BOC MDMA itself is unlikely because it would need PMK or isosafrole to make it.
> If there is MDPH methylenedioxyphentermine in circulation it is deliberate but I am highly skeptical quality of the source of the supposed data.
> 
> Things that are interesting but unexplained significance.
> 
> Pills aren't what they used to be.
> in mid to late 2000s the Brabant Dutch manufacturers came up with a pill binder that is really good at binding pills making rock hard lumps but is not as good at allowing the pills to dissolve and disperse. I think it is polyvinylpyrrolidone co-polymer and replaced the earlier gum binders. This seems to be everywhere now. It has a couple of problems, it can bind stuff in solution further reducing availability and it also causes allergies in some people.
> 
> Crystals
> There also appears to be some kind of bulking agent that can be crystallized with MDMA to make nice crystals which look pretty but are not pure MDMA.HCl  I have a good idea what it is but this shouldn't be public information.
> 
> Nostalgia will continue to be a big thing in the future and you can't swim in the same river twice meaning that people change much more than the drug does and the river flows on.
> MDMA in general now back to being as good as it ever has been, MDMA contents of pills are pretty high up to 100mg which is much higher than the 90s the precursors are plentiful and have been since 2010, perhaps the drugs haven't changed, the users have and the world we live in has.
> 
> Pharmaceutical (GMP) MDMA as MAPS have was originally made by the Nichols group, by the reductive amination of PMK just like all the clandestine processes. The only real difference is they distilled the MDMA in the final step it is not complicated.


Good, informative post. But your nostalgia argument falls down somewhat when even us old and jaded users have found what we call good product recently - the problem is that for many of us, it is no longer the norm.

I'm no chemist, and by the sound of your post you probably are. But what you're talking is theoretical chemistry, where 1+1 always = 2. But in the real world things aren't that simple. As you know, there are so many variables that can influence a reaction that it is almost impossible to control them all - especially when clandestine operations are involved. 1+1 can easily end up being 1.5 or even 2.5, and no one will have a fuckin clue why this is...


----------



## vecktor

old and jaded too, it still works pretty well, everything else seems shitter though, so its a lot further down back to reality than in the old days.

The newer pills seem to have plenty of MDMA in them but they don't dissolve and release it like they used to, I remember some of the older pills sometimes used to disintegrate all on their own.
It seems some of the crystal around is far from pure MDMA. I think it is being co crystallized with a cutting agent,  people consume a gram of MDMA and are not be dead or in hospital.

caveat emptor

Industrial chemistry, theoretical chemistry and clandestine obey the same rules, there are only limited possible opportunities to fuck up available to the typical MDMA maker lets call him Clevis Klootzak, he can screw up a lot but some outcomes would require a rewrite of some laws of nature.
Clevis Klootzak can only generate certain impurities and actually MDMA chemistry is really simple.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Caveat emptor indeed. But the proof of the pudding is still in the eating...

Also, aren't the 'rules of nature' constantly being rewritten as our knowledge progresses?


----------



## AutoTripper

vecktor said:


> MDMA in general now back to being as good as it ever has been, MDMA contents of pills are pretty high up to 100mg which is much higher than the 90s the precursors are plentiful and have been since 2010, perhaps the drugs haven't changed, the users have and the world we live in has.


I wont even try to comment on and critique the gist and full extent of what you are saying.

But I must query this statement as it appears very innacurate. 100 mg is a moderately small dose by today's ecstasy pill standards.

More like 200-300 mg is extremely common with 200mg being the sought-after norm bench standard I would suggest.

Original, full potency, banging old skool pills, like the classic White Dove of the early 90's, 120-130 mg would have been the standard.

With higher and lower doses of course. And actually there was a remarkably high proportion of those white doves which actually contains very high dose MDEA, like up to 170 mg plus.

Doses dropped heavily by 1996, when 60 to 70 mg became pretty standard and were regarded as "decent" pills.  Towards the end of the millennium in 1999 especially at the festivals and parties I attended in the United Kingdom, ecstasy pills contained much higher amounts of MDMA again.  

From 2003 to 2005, it seemed pretty normal to get very clean pills well over 100 mg.  I stopped taking it in 2005, just as it all went downhill.

So today's 200-300 mg pills are indeed stronger than ever practically in terms of amounts and maybe on par with the original double doves which I never took myself but I assume would have been between 200 and 250 mg.


----------



## vecktor

AutoTripper said:


> I wont even try to comment on and critique the gist and full extent of what you are saying.
> 
> But I must query this statement as it appears very innacurate. 100 mg is a moderately small dose by today's ecstasy pill standards.
> 
> More like 200-300 mg is extremely common with 200mg being the sought-after norm bench standard I would suggest.
> 
> Original, full potency, banging old skool pills, like the classic White Dove of the early 90's, 120-130 mg would have been the standard.
> 
> With higher and lower doses of course. And actually there was a remarkably high proportion of those white doves which actually contains very high dose MDEA, like up to 170 mg plus.
> 
> Doses dropped heavily by 1996, when 60 to 70 mg became pretty standard and were regarded as "decent" pills.  Towards the end of the millennium in 1999 especially at the festivals and parties I attended in the United Kingdom, ecstasy pills contained much higher amounts of MDMA again.
> 
> From 2003 to 2005, it seemed pretty normal to get very clean pills well over 100 mg.  I stopped taking it in 2005, just as it all went downhill.
> 
> So today's 200-300 mg pills are indeed stronger than ever practically in terms of amounts and maybe on par with the original double doves which I never took myself but I assume would have been between 200 and 250 mg.


sticking to MDMA If you look at the numbers the 90's pills were around 50 to 120 mg per tablet  with an average around  80-100mg  the forensic data is out there, a couple of times the average fell and the average fell hard through 2009 and then rose again but in the long run it has always been around 100mg. today 300mg pills are still a rarity most are still, you guessed it, around 100mg

to add to the confusion some of the 90's pills were MDA but there was no way to tell what was what because every muppet had the same press tooling, a large amount of MDA came out of the baltics in the 1990s before it was banned.
MDEA is less potent than MDMA and needs a higher dose anyways


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Stronger isn't always better. This is the crux of this whole argument. Why are 250mg pills qualitatively inferior to 100mg pills of old?


----------



## G_Chem

@vektor- I’m too hungover to start now but will at least throw in that your wrong about the one pot from PMK glycidate to MDMA.  If you’d actually spent the two solid years it takes to read this thread you’d saw that one 

I have a post somewhere in there that goes over the anecdotal as well as scientific research (a paper provided from Biscuit showing chemistry trends for at least that area, Aus tends to import and follow trends of EU.)  I then show how that recent change to I believe it was Platinum hydrogenation (could be wrong, alcohol... gotta look back) could theoretically use PMK glycidate in a one pot.

When combining the word on the street, with the more common synth routes changing, and then seeing that indeed this new change would be possible to use in a one pot, it all seems to fall in place.

I’ll agree on 2,3-MDMA/MDP2P.  I entertained that theory but it’s not possible large scale to be a problem.

That’s all for now, gotta puke.

-GC


----------



## vecktor

G_Chem said:


> @vektor- I’m too hungover to start now but will at least throw in that your wrong about the one pot from PMK glycidate to MDMA.  If you’d actually spent the two solid years it takes to read this thread you’d saw that one
> 
> I have a post somewhere in there that goes over the anecdotal as well as scientific research (a paper provided from Biscuit showing chemistry trends for at least that area, Aus tends to import and follow trends of EU.)  I then show how that recent change to I believe it was Platinum hydrogenation (could be wrong, alcohol... gotta look back) could theoretically use PMK glycidate in a one pot.



once you finish puking, you could have the courtesy to actually read what I said rather than what you think I said,
PMK glycidate to MDMA is possible in one pot but not one step, without going into the details too much it is ester hydrolysis followed by decarboxylation, the resulting epoxde rearranges to give the ketone incidentally this is exactly the same epoxide that is an intermediate in the oxidation of isosafrole with peroxy acids (shulgins method). The ketone is then reductively aminated with methylamine. However the acid or base from the first step is troublesome in the second step.
hence one pot multiple step not one step. but I suspect that most operators are extracting the PMK from the first step into a second vessel after washing it, someone skilled in the art would precipitate the bisulphite addition product of PMK and then reductively aminate that.

The alternative route of oxygen to nitrogen swap followed by the hydrolysis and decaboxylation is unlikely to be practical and is way beyond the skill level of generic MDMA cook Cletus Klootzak and still isn't single step.

Biscuits input is just noise and massively error prone. Chirality does not spontaneously arise ever, so whilst PMK glycidate is a chiral molecule it is made from achiral piperonal and achiral alpha chloro propionate ester in what is called the Darzens reaction, in this case methyl chloropropionate and it gives a racemic mixture of cis and trans PMK glycidate or racemic cis or racemic trans it does not produce one chiral form over the other. People in this thread biscuit included, seem to think that PMK glycidate is the glycidate ester of PMK which is total and utter bullshit that an undergraduate would blow apart. PMK is a ketone and PMK glycidate is not an ester of PMK at all,  it is properly methyl 2-methyl-3-phenyloxirane-2-carboxylate

In short the current MDMA is MDMA just like all the old MDMA, the physical form might be different, the pressings and the pill binders certainly are and the pills seem worse if not totally bad at releasing MDMA. The crystal is not as pure as people like to think and large crystals are way worse than small crystals for dissolving.

It will be interesting to see what replaces PMK glycidate as the pre precursor of choice over the next few years, I don't expect anything groundbreaking, but Cletus Klootzak occasionally comes up with something surprising.


----------



## AutoTripper

@vecktor one point you made which did make me think, as this is something already considered by myself- was your comments on the binders used and how this may be affecting the way and extent to/speed at which our bodies absorb tge MDMA.

And your suggestion that some people could actually be allergic to these modern binders. This has always deterred me from ever considering trying and MDMA pill again until just recently. I cant even take basic vitamin pills, I'm extremely intolerant to virtually all additives in supplements, as well as the supplements themselves, which I also reacts adversely to in virtually all cases when there is no other ingredient present.

Not knowing the other inactive ingredients in ecstasy pills is a big cause of concern to me. All of these solid, hard pressed, bright coloured, shiny pills- I expect I would react more negatively to than the lightly coloured, super crumbly Bowsers I was fortunate to procure.

I think they look about as ideal for me in this regard as any pills I have seen, in terms of how they seem to be largely unprocessed.  I have put out a call to my friend to reserve some if any left. I still haven't tried the ones I have yet, but I always think ahead. It may be a good move to ensure that I have the option of rolling again a few times, over time, with these crumbly light coloured pills, rather than risk having more of an adverse reaction to be hard-pressed and bright coloured pills which my friend may have in future for all I know.

However, and please excuse my naivety- regarding the binders affecting absorption, would this not be completely negated by crushing the pills down, or "crunching" as we used to term it, and which we commonly did to achieve a faster comeup?

Surely so? Once the pill is in fine powder, the binder and MDMA would be completely separated surely? To the extent that anybody concerned about this could crush there pills and put them into capsules if they really wanted to try and negate the possible reduced absorption time due to the binder.

Another idea, if some people genuinely are allergic to certain binders this could perhaps affect their experience of the MDMA and the role and result in a much more negative come down and side effects, depending on how severe the allergy is of course.


----------



## G_Chem

Your wrong... Look at the first write up on the erowid page for platinum hydrogenation.  I won’t go into details but it’s highly likely the GAA used in the first step would convert the PMK glycidate to PMK.  If PMK glycidate was subbed it’d likely be converted to PMK during that first six hour initial stir.

The GAA doesn’t effect it all and is required for better yields from memory.  This is a one pot reaction, and don’t nit pick by saying “steps.”  That word is about as vague as it gets...

For instance..  Pouring a glass of water might have one step for one write up, pour h20 from one container to another.  Another write up could be multiple steps, 1) check to ensure h20 is distilled 2) measure XXX ml 3) pour slowly to ensure no spillage 4) discard first container 5) enjoy cold water.

You see the word “steps” isn’t really what we are talking here.  We are talking one fluid reaction that is done in the same reaction flask with no clean up of intermediates along the way.  Which is exactly what I stated..  Not only that but we have underground chemists confirming this, as well as Biscuits “noise.”  (To be fair the only noise is coming from your direction but I digress.)

I read you just fine bud.  I think it’s you that should read some more.  Starting with that first write up in Erowid.

As for what precursors to come, it seems there are a few others already in use but whether their an anomaly or truly the future we’ll have to see.  I will say that PMK glycidate and piperanol have been known about for a long time and it took quite a few years for them to switch over.  Hopefully there’s less lag time this round.

As for binders being the issue.. No.  Maybe for some where the pill doesn’t hit for 2 hours but not the issues many are dealing with.

And once again this is NOT all MDMA.  Just some in certain areas.

-GC


----------



## vecktor

G_Chem said:


> Your wrong... Look at the first write up on the erowid page for platinum hydrogenation.  I won’t go into details but it’s highly likely the GAA used in the first step would convert the PMK glycidate to PMK.  If PMK glycidate was subbed it’d likely be converted to PMK during that first six hour initial stir.
> 
> The GAA doesn’t effect it all and is required for better yields from memory.  This is a one pot reaction, and don’t nit pick by saying “steps.”  That word is about as vague as it gets...
> 
> For instance..  Pouring a glass of water might have one step for one write up, pour h20 from one container to another.  Another write up could be multiple steps, 1) check to ensure h20 is distilled 2) measure XXX ml 3) pour slowly to ensure no spillage 4) discard first container 5) enjoy cold water.
> 
> You see the word “steps” isn’t really what we are talking here.  We are talking one fluid reaction that is done in the same reaction flask with no clean up of intermediates along the way.  Which is exactly what I stated..  Not only that but we have underground chemists confirming this, as well as Biscuits “noise.”  (To be fair the only noise is coming from your direction but I digress.)
> 
> I read you just fine bud.  I think it’s you that should read some more.  Starting with that first write up in Erowid.
> 
> As for what precursors to come, it seems there are a few others already in use but whether their an anomaly or truly the future we’ll have to see.  I will say that PMK glycidate and piperanol have been known about for a long time and it took quite a few years for them to switch over.  Hopefully there’s less lag time this round.
> 
> As for binders being the issue.. No.  Maybe for some where the pill doesn’t hit for 2 hours but not the issues many are dealing with.
> 
> And once again this is NOT all MDMA.  Just some in certain areas.
> 
> -GC


OK I see that you have no idea what one pot or one step means to a chemist.  No problem. I said one pot multiple steps and I meant what I said. the multiple steps are telescoped to use the correct terminology.
its piperonal btw
There is no way that Cletus Klootzak is following Erowid, lets face it most of the crap that Erowid has comes from ADC and Eleuisis no disrepect to Jeff but a lot of it is pure bull. I really doubt that Glacial acetic acid is strong enough to cleave the methyl ester or do any of the other chemistry needed on PMK glycidate, you're welcome to prove me wrong, but even if it somehow did work and decarboxylated the free acid was then the intermediate would be the epoxide which is the same epoxide as produced by oxidation of isosafrole with performic or peracetic acid whcih takes us straight back to Shulgin chemistry, so where is the difference exactly in the chemistry.
I also think that borohydride is the reducing agent of choice STAB to be precise which replaced NaBH3CN a while back. there are photos of a cat H2 lab on 750l scale siezed in 2015 or 2016 published by the EMCDDA they published it because they thought cat H2 was noteworthy.
I want to know if there is something to this, but you are not giving me anything here.


----------



## psy997

Vecktor, I super appreciate you bringing what seems like some pretty expert level chemistry here.

I also want to reiterate what has been done here in the past 10-25 pages, which is the collection of a massive amount of anecdotal evidence suggesting significant qualitative differences in some MDMA experiences as contrasted with the generally accepted effects profile of MDMA. From my own assessment, enough evidence has been gathered to rule out the possibility of old timer nostalgia, changing personalities and persons, set and setting influences, and other arguments brought here and elsewhere as to why MDMA is the same as it's ever been.

Your reference to the LSD purity discussions and circular logic leads me to think that too much emphasis is being placed on the variety of explanations we, as chemistry naive users, have brainstormed. I believe I can speak for the main players in this thread when I say that the attachment here is not to proposed mechanisms of action, if you will, but instead to our own personal experience as corroborated by now large amounts of others' experiences, both physiological and psychological.

I want your chemistry expertise included in our discussion, and I'm weary of your contributions if you are unwilling to contribute more than explanations as to why a well-documented phenomenological occurrence is, in fact, in our heads.


----------



## Simosom

Thread is getting bigger, more and more users confirming mehdma theory. We had a reports from first time users. Now we have a chemists that don't trust their mices.


----------



## Dresden

Because we are in Hell?


----------



## FatBellyWhipSlay

I agree

I am en ex-raver 1988-2002 and the disco biscuits back then were so pure, I never had a bad comedown

foll forward to 2000 and god knows what they cut with it.  I used to be bad for 4 or days afterwards

the last decent pill I had was in 1996 and was an 'Apple' (logo)


----------



## AutoTripper

FatBellyWhipSlay said:


> I agree
> 
> I am en ex-raver 1988-2002 and the disco biscuits back then were so pure, I never had a bad comedown
> 
> foll forward to 2000 and god knows what they cut with it.  I used to be bad for 4 or days afterwards
> 
> the last decent pill I had was in 1996 and was an 'Apple' (logo)


I wont discount your personal experience, but I can assure you I took very many top quality ecstasy pills after 1996, really the best so many times.

Not always of course, and you are right but it was from 1996 onwards that the general impurity and contamination increased and there was a lot of crap around much more so than up until 1995 at least.

But that was no way the end for ecstasy/MDMA. I can think of so many different pills, certainly in 1999 in my area. Flooded it was at those Exodus festivals in particular, which were as banging as could be (the pills I mean).

Not forgetting the original Mitsubishis (in early 1998 I think?).
I took a lot of Mitsubishi batches over the years that were extremely good and reminiscent of old school pills. But again, so many duds and inferiors around.

Im sure it has been somewhat hit and miss depending on area, contacts, scene etc as to what our longterm individual experiences and memories of pill quality over the years at different stages has bern. I think I was quite fortunate that pill quality improved massively in 1999 and 2000. But this was much more so the case in my hometown of Bedford UK.

In Swansea, Wales, where I studied at university at the same time the general quality was much more hit-and-miss and they were very long periods of time when all I could get was absolute rubbish.

Back in Bedford in 2003, by 2004 the quality and strength stepped up again and I was taking certain presses for months which were very near the old skool, no comedown, long stable roll, didnt need much for a night and awsome aftergow day.

Like 2 to 3 pills was a lot for a night. I was gobbling up to 13 or so at times, still with no bad physical comedown at all. They were really strong and clean pills and I was completely off my head of course but really didn't suffer as I transisted back down to Earth over the next few days

I can remember one specific occasion actually on a casual evening round some friends house, when I double dropped the very good and strong "Playstations", then double dropped again half an hour later, another half hour after that I took 3 more.

All totally spontaneous which was 7 in exactly 1 hour it just kind of happened because I completely lost my sense of time and wasn't thinking about it and just went with the flow. I reckon a good gram's worth of MDMA.

When I realised the timeline for my consumption I was amazed at how remarkably calm and comfortable and perfectly ok I felt in every sense.

These pills were strong easily strong enough to roll off of 1 and taking such a heavy dose like that was still remarkably smooth and I had a thoroughly enjoyable night just relaxing in a dreamy chilled out state round a friend's house who was up playing a computer game all night, but not on drugs himself at the time.

And again I had no bad come down from this or any great difficulty beyond the messed up sleeping routine and obvious fatigue and motivational factors when it comes to working through the week.

So Im just saying, 1996 is not when it all stopped. Sure it changed. But quality and potency has varied quite a lot since then over the years before things apparently really went South in 2005 just after I stopped using MDMA and giving it any conscious thought.

And unless I'm mistaken again, this thread is basically exploring, specifically, the undisputed drop in quality, trends, causes etc post-2005 when MDMA kind of vanished, and most importantly the apparent distinction between the allegedly high purity/strength MDMA since its global reemergence in 2010, and the best MDMA people recall taking since ever and "back then."


----------



## Dresden

Heaven ain't close in a place like this.


----------



## AutoTripper

Dresden said:


> Heaven ain't close in a place like this.


Haha, funny you should say that. Thanks for reminding me of one of my favorite ever Old Skool Happy hardcore tunes of all time.





It's called "Gotta Believe".  This was the scene I got into when it all began, and this misic will always hold a special place in my heart.


----------



## FatBellyWhipSlay

Now were talking ;-) Castle Donnington '92


----------



## Chonciceptor

indigoaura said:


> @Chonciceptor
> 
> Nice to see you back. I was wondering what had happened with you and your wife. Did your old supplier ever show back up? I will definitely let you know how the new product is. Although I heard that some of the leading markets have closed with exit scams, so I don't know if I will be able to get it again even if I like it. That seems to be how it goes.


All is good lol, we had gotten some DW product over Christmas, and, as usual, it was mediocre at best, about the same as all the other crap! The market I was using is out of business, so in to others and see if I can find better product!


----------



## Dresden

AFAICT, we haven't been able to "feel" mdma since August 29th, 1997 when President Clinton "virtual reality" nuked us big time!

Last time I tried PMA, though, it felt like a good pre 1997 roll with extreme mydriasis but with less of an urge to dance.  It didn't make me overdose but YMMV.


----------



## AutoTripper

Dresden said:


> AFAICT, we haven't been able to "feel" mdma since August 29th, 1997 when President Clinton "virtual reality" nuked us big time!
> 
> Last time I tried PMA, though, it felt like a good pre 1997 roll with extreme mydriasis but with less of an urge to dance.  It didn't make me overdose but YMMV.


Dude are you actually being serious? I cant see it but I also can't say I quite get your humour.
I would suggest that you are in No Man's Land. Your humour appears somewhat lacking in relevance and actual humour to be worthwhile or apprecieated by others. I am ALL for good humour but not for private humour which "humours" our own inner persepectuve only and is totally lost on others, isnt always true humour, althouh it can be providing one actually knows how to use humour properly.  Much more fun when there is a joke in there for everyone.

Im just a bit puzzled trying to figure out where you are coming from as your tone is so flippant and loose. I was excited to see a new post here, this is a  ery onteresting thread with lots of excellent contributions from some extremely clever people.

And then, some not so purposeful contributions as well which do not appear to add anything.

Edit- on a sidenote, I did try to oblige your previous request above by giving you a bit of "Heaven." ? ☺


----------



## Biscuit

Good grief Vecktor, it’s my 20th year on this wonderful site and that’s the first time I’ve been referred to as a source of “Noise”. Whatever that might be anyway.

I live in the most isolated city in the world, in one of the most laid back country’s in the world, where everyone is called “Mate” and where such pointedly pointless attacks that still gets us nowhere near a resolution, is just not something I’m going to understand. I definitely won’t be biting back or making more “noise” in response.

I never professed to know the answer and all any of us were (and are) doing is trying to come up with valid theories for the adverse change to mdma quality (I was very much in the isomer difference camp) and in turn we made suggestions which might account for the theory. If it is wrong then it is wrong and that’s great, it can then be crossed off the list. And frankly it is a shame you weren’t around at the time these various statements were being made, so that your various pointedly points of view could have been properly assessed in the context and at the same time as what others were saying. 

At the end of the day much of the MDMA today is different in a bad and unusual way. That is undeniable. I’ve had piss poor amounts quantity wise from batches recently and have been taken back ten years in a heart beat. Until someone has a clear lab result which confirms it is all racemic I am not ruling that outcome out at all.

It also cannot be denied that: the emergence of PMK glycidate, the change to Pt hydrogenation on a mass scale and the arrival of mega dosed Dutch pills with crappy effects and mdma “crystal” with no soul; all occurred at the same time, within the same year. That cannot be coincidental. Further, PMK glycidate (or glycidic ester of which there are many types coming through) is being sold in chiral and achiral forms on the net. 

In any event, can you please provide forensic lab analysis results for mdma produced from this pre-precursor. How is it done? What impurities are seen? Is there an identifiable scientific difference between MDMA from this pre-precursor and MDMA produced from properly purified PMK, regardless of whether it is from safrole, isosafrole or piperonyl. Well? Anything? Because there is absolutely an identifiable anecdotal difference the world over that the scientific community needs to get off its arse and account for. 

I will have to research the points you have otherwise made before commenting further, which despite being announced on the back of a venomous and monotonous drumroll, I’m still happy to distill, crystallise and take away in a purer form, as being your valuable contribution to this collaborative and cooperative worldwide effort from many in the BL community.

Peace. Love. Unity. Respect. That’s what this site was built upon. And if that doesn’t work may I suggest trying to “Throw a shrimp on the barbi” and chilling out a little.


----------



## G_Chem

And I said one pot multiple steps too... Glad it took us that long to agree.  I know exactly what both terms mean, the fact you don’t go further to correct my “mistakes” shows your just trying to argue to argue..  (Not sure how much simpler and more clear I can word it.)  I get it, no one likes to be wrong, but don’t let your obvious emotions cloud this debate or else we’ll go around in even more circles.

I said one pot, I never stated one step, that’s your assumptions.  Again the word “steps” is vague and means different things to different people.  The term “one pot” is something people immediately understand in the chemistry world, saying “however many steps” means jack shit and you know this.

I love how you then discredit the ONLY actual research and evidence, known synthesis routes from Erowid, to further your beliefs.  Shit it’s like arguing with a flat earther..  Yes some of the synth routes are garbage (delepine and pugsley comes to mind) but most are legit.

I’ll agree GAA may not work but the GAA isn’t necessary and can be subbed with an acid that would.  I know for a fact that route is not bunk either.

Idk what else to say really..  I’ve proven that this can be done in a ONE POT (did you read that right?). (For those who don’t know what means, it’s a reaction done start to finish in the same container without purification of any intermediates.)  I’ve shown interviews with chemists stating the new reduction is a one pot.  And I can even tie it all in with the report from Biscuit.

Despite all this vektor.  You nit pick on stupid wording, steps vs one pot lol.  You discredit Biscuit (a highly regarded member) and his research that shows the chemistry trends which agree with this theory.  You say everything on Erowid is bullshit.  You say that interview is lie..

This beginning to look like one big conspiracy man. Cuz clearly everyone is wrong but you..

Psy I’d disregard this mans chemistry expertise.  While he knows a thing or two, he’s another that lets his emotion cloud over all evidence presented to him.  Every piece of evidence which contradicts his view is clearly “garbage.”

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Two seconds in google vektor... This is why it took me awhile to respond, people like this make me irate.  I need breaks from idiocy or else I’d eat a bullet.  When people disregard all evidence for their own beliefs I begin to get emotional myself..

“In chemistry a *one*-*pot* synthesis is a strategy to improve the efficiency of a chemical *reaction* whereby a reactant is subjected to successive chemical *reactions* in just *one reactor.”*

Are we clear now???  Also looking back I never ONCE said “steps” you brought it up assuming I did but again you need to read more clearly.  I know this because I took the time to re-read as well as knowing myself well enough to use the term I meant.

At this point vektor your frankly looking like a moron.  The PMK glycidate to PMK CAN be done in a single reactor, or as we like to say a “one pot.”  The acid or base used would have little bearing on the reduction, it may effect yields a bit but the synthesis WOULD work.  Come to think of it, the acid or base used wouldn’t completely wreck other synthesis routes either.

-GC


----------



## psy997

Just got a bit of what is supposed to be really good loved up MDMA that I'm hoping to try soon, I'm quite excited. It looks very similar to the MehDMA I found in this same locality in October of 2017, which is concerning since I've never seen MDMA in the same greyish hue besides that meh batch, but I've heard from reputable sources it's good. Here's to hoping it's got the magic!

I also still have a decent amount of that MehDMA from Oct. '17. So if it is good, I will then have a couple hundred milligrams of both good and meh stuff that could be compared in a lab.


----------



## indigoaura

psy997 - I am really eager to hear how your experience is. When do you plan to take it?

Also, you commented:
"I believe I can speak for the main players in this thread when I say that the attachment here is not to proposed mechanisms of action, if you will, but instead to our own personal experience as corroborated by now large amounts of others' experiences, both physiological and psychological."

At the heart of my interest is my own experience and how to improve it, yes. But I also want to understand why the effects profile is different and how to effectively differentiate between the products. I feel this is a public safety concern that is flying under the radar of the major harm reduction players, and it needs to be addressed.

My concert plans got wrecked by rain and the show was cancelled. I may go ahead and try it anyway tomorrow. Maybe I will update all of ya'll with live updates. 

As for the recent negativity brought here by a newcomer to the thread...this has been a very supportive and open eared community where we have been able to share objective observation and data in a collaborative fashion. We want information and contribution, but personal attacks are so unwarranted and pointless, especially against long standing and valued members of the community.


----------



## AutoTripper

Guys and girls. I'm verty curious to know if you have any thoughts on this very interesting discovery I made last night on Instagram:

[link removed]

This guy is hugely touting the S isomer as being superior. I know it is more potent weight for weight and faster acting, vs the R isomer, and slightly more so than Racemic.

But I am also aware that it is not that black and white and that there is a significant subjective difference in the experiences of the S isomer vs racemic, with racemic generally preferred and regarded as being subjectively superior by Alexander shulgin and test subjects.

Anyway this guy on IG looks to have hands down the purest MDMA product I have personally ever seen. He says 97% purity.

I made an enquiry and was told:

"Greetings. Thanks for your interest in the S isomer. MDMA consists of two stereoisomers; the R and the S, each producing a different effect. The R isomer is responsible for the “speedy” effects, while the S isomer produces the feelings of empathy. Additionally the S isomer is more potent by weight, and faster acting. These observations are well documented by Dr. Shulgin. Isolating the S isomer provides a superior experience."


However, the minimum order is for 9 grams ("Tins".)
Any thoughts anybody? Have you all knowingly taken S isomer MDMA?

If not it could be very useful to this topic. I would love to try it.
Go on I dare somebody, order a 9 tin flatpack and see if you can draw any interesting conclusions.


----------



## indigoaura

I am over here laughing out loud at the idea that there is just some random dude on instagram outright selling massive amounts of supposedly isomer specific MDMA. 

I would be VERY suspicious of anyone who is that public with what they are selling, and advertising on Instagram. That seems very risky to me, and likely to get the seller and buyers in trouble (even if he is legit). Plus..good god...he wants you to order a lot. No way...way too dangerous. 

Ask him to send you a free sample, LOL. 

I'd love to try both isomers in isolation. Never knowingly experimented with one vs. the other. Very, very interesting that someone is advertising product like this.


----------



## Biscuit

Indigoaura, thank you for what you have said, and G Chem as always, that is precisely the sentiment I was aiming for.

Autotripper, I agree entirely with indigoaura, the main reason being however because the listing has the S and R around the wrong way. It is the S that is the “speedier” (really that means more euphoric) isomer. The R is anything but speedy but supplies something unique, that perhaps the average amphetamine does not. I think from the sounds of things however the “empathy” of MDMA really comes from that perfect mix of both isomers. That the so called supplier has made that fundamental error in relation to calling the R speedier, suggests to me that the whole thing is bogus.


----------



## AutoTripper

Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys/girls. Well the dude replied to me saying that he will let me know if they ever start shipping single tins after I told him this would only be for self psychotherapy and I would only be looking for one tin.

I will look into the Speedier effects claim etc. It could be an innocent misconception/description, it does seem like a far from black and white issue with still very little information and subjective experience between the different isomers.

This is another guy on IG who represents 1plsd.de/to in Germany who I have been purchasing my semi legal grey area LSD homologues from.

I found this bloke on IG advertising the 1plsd and ALD 52 and I got my first tabs from him no problems. 1plsd is a grey legal area, I mean it is as far as I know technically illegal in the United Kingdom although there may be some loopholes whereby it is not punishable or strictly illegal to do with personal consumption and intent etc but nobody seems to be completely clear on this.

It is about to be made illegal in Germany. In the UK 1plsd and ald-52 are included in the psychoactive substances ban of 2016 I'm pretty sure.

But then so is this one, 4-Aco-Dmt. And I don't believe it is as much of a grey area but more straightforwardly prohibited.

And dude is blatantly advertising this on IG for sale in the UK. I am very tempted to get a gram of this but it is quite expensive although it works out a good price because there is about 40 trips worth per gram. And I know I can trust the guy totally.

Edit, I removed the link.


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper, while you are certainly enlightening me about the underground world of instagram beyond kitten memes, I don't think you are supposed to post direct links to sources. You may want to take them off your posts and just reference in a vague way. Safer for the source that way.

I am still in shock that this is happening on Instagram. I have already gone down a long rabbit hole of hashtags that has lead me to some weird, underground EDM scene in my city. So, thanks for that!

In other news, barring some unforseen complication, I will be testing this new product in a few hours. I doubt many of you will read this before then, due to time differences, but here are my current burning questions.

Should I use a capsule at all or should I just swallow the crystal?

Should I crush the crystal or leave it a solid?

Also, still toying with the dosage. I don't know the strength or purity, so it is hard to know how to proceed. I've done 130 mg in the past and been underwhelmed, but this may be different. Right now, planning to stick to the 130 mg as it gives me a point of comparison to previous experiences. 

I am not pre-loading with anything. Leaving the vitamin C out until the comedown. 

I'll keep you posted.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> @AutoTripper, while you are certainly enlightening me about the underground world of instagram beyond kitten memes, I don't think you are supposed to post direct links to sources. You may want to take them off your posts and just reference in a vague way. Safer for the source that way.
> 
> I am still in shock that this is happening on Instagram. I have already gone down a long rabbit hole of hashtags that has lead me to some weird, underground EDM scene in my city. So, thanks for that!
> 
> In other news, barring some unforseen complication, I will be testing this new product in a few hours. I doubt many of you will read this before then, due to time differences, but here are my current burning questions.
> 
> Should I use a capsule at all or should I just swallow the crystal?
> 
> Should I crush the crystal or leave it a solid?
> 
> Also, still toying with the dosage. I don't know the strength or purity, so it is hard to know how to proceed. I've done 130 mg in the past and been underwhelmed, but this may be different. Right now, planning to stick to the 130 mg as it gives me a point of comparison to previous experiences.
> 
> I am not pre-loading with anything. Leaving the vitamin C out until the comedown.
> 
> I'll keep you posted.


Well firstly, have a wonderful time. If I may share my gut's thoughts on your enquiry (which I'm really not qualified to do lol considering I haven't dosed for 14 years)-

I think I would personally use a capsule I have absolutely no problem using capsules to ingest things they are very benign and simply cease to exist as soon as they hit your stomach pretty much.
And I may also choose to crush the crystal down a bit before placing in a capsule if I felt confident about doing this tidily without losing any little crumbs because I'm rather OCD about that type of thing ha ha.

I think I would go that route myself. Dosage wise, I think that sounds good too. I keep what I consider to be the benchmark original old skool White Dove (and similar logos) of the early 90's- around 125-130 mg, in mind.

They were proper pills. One pill was a magical experience by itself. 3 at a rave was ample and bliss, amazing afterglow and return to planet. But as you say 130mg has been underwhelming before, maybe add a tiny bit extra, like 135 mg. If the crystal is actually more potent, that extra 5 mg should not prevent you from being able to gauge how much so in reference to past batches. It also may be nice to have an extra little cushion for peace of mind sake that you will have the full experience you would like to enjoy regardless of the experimental comparison.

But this is just my own neurotic OCD talking. I hope there appears to be some logic there anyhow.

Regarding Instagram. People are using the platform alright, very widely and openly. After a while their page will get taken down then they just start up a new one, but in the meantime, they recruit over to the encrypted Wickr Me app and IG becomes obsolete.

There are a lot of scammers of course but also a lot of legits too. I have a few 250ug Sunshine Blotters from a separate guy whose page with blotter art I came across. We chatted in Wickr and took it from there.

Anyway, truly wishing you a marvellous evening, and I'd like to say a sincere thank you to you for your openess, acceptance, support and invaluable advice and thoughts on all things since I have participated here recently.
It is a sincerely appreciated anyway.

Roll safe! ☺


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper I am actually leaning towards putting the crystals in the capsule and then hitting it with a hammer to crush the crystal. Maybe. That seems like it would crush the crystal without destroying the capsule or losing any product. Due to how the crystals are, I think the dose I currently have measured out is 133 mg. The other crystals were big and I would have needed to crush them to add more, and it did not seem worth it to pursue that.

(Sidenote, I am pretty sure I am sensitive to the gelatin capsules like you, and I also use the cellulose variety.)

Thanks for your kind words!


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Guys and girls. I'm verty curious to know if you have any thoughts on this very interesting discovery I made last night on Instagram:
> 
> [link removed]
> 
> This guy is hugely touting the S isomer as being superior. I know it is more potent weight for weight and faster acting, vs the R isomer, and slightly more so than Racemic.
> 
> But I am also aware that it is not that black and white and that there is a significant subjective difference in the experiences of the S isomer vs racemic, with racemic generally preferred and regarded as being subjectively superior by Alexander shulgin and test subjects.
> 
> Anyway this guy on IG looks to have hands down the purest MDMA product I have personally ever seen. He says 97% purity.
> 
> I made an enquiry and was told:
> 
> "Greetings. Thanks for your interest in the S isomer. MDMA consists of two stereoisomers; the R and the S, each producing a different effect. The R isomer is responsible for the “speedy” effects, while the S isomer produces the feelings of empathy. Additionally the S isomer is more potent by weight, and faster acting. These observations are well documented by Dr. Shulgin. Isolating the S isomer provides a superior experience."
> 
> 
> However, the minimum order is for 9 grams ("Tins".)
> Any thoughts anybody? Have you all knowingly taken S isomer MDMA?
> 
> If not it could be very useful to this topic. I would love to try it.
> Go on I dare somebody, order a 9 tin flatpack and see if you can draw any interesting conclusions.



immediately cut off all communication and NEVER EVER use instagram to score stuff. Thats just the dumbest thing ive ever heard of. That practice should stop immediately for yourself. Dont buy.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> @AutoTripper, while you are certainly enlightening me about the underground world of instagram beyond kitten memes, I don't think you are supposed to post direct links to sources. You may want to take them off your posts and just reference in a vague way. Safer for the source that way.
> 
> I am still in shock that this is happening on Instagram. I have already gone down a long rabbit hole of hashtags that has lead me to some weird, underground EDM scene in my city. So, thanks for that!
> 
> In other news, barring some unforseen complication, I will be testing this new product in a few hours. I doubt many of you will read this before then, due to time differences, but here are my current burning questions.
> 
> Should I use a capsule at all or should I just swallow the crystal?
> 
> Should I crush the crystal or leave it a solid?
> 
> Also, still toying with the dosage. I don't know the strength or purity, so it is hard to know how to proceed. I've done 130 mg in the past and been underwhelmed, but this may be different. Right now, planning to stick to the 130 mg as it gives me a point of comparison to previous experiences.
> 
> I am not pre-loading with anything. Leaving the vitamin C out until the comedown.
> 
> I'll keep you posted.



it doesnt matter how you take it. Crushed, full, in a cap. Nothign will change. Dont over-think it.


----------



## indigoaura

136 mg in a cellulose capsule @ 6:00 pm.

I did not crush it, just left it how it was. 

I'm going to live update all of you.


----------



## indigoaura

and, epic11...I have found a notable difference between capsule types. I don't think any detail is too small in this situation.


----------



## indigoaura

Not feeling anything at 6:30 pm. No eye dilation.

I had lunch around 12:30 today, and then did not have any dinner, so I don't think that is a factor.


----------



## indigoaura

...but at 6:33 there is a "woosh" like poetry.


----------



## indigoaura

...6:39 eyes are dilating...


----------



## indigoaura

...6:49...light roll w/occasional eye flutters. Eyes not fully dilated.


----------



## indigoaura

7:14 - taking a re-dose because it has not quite taken off the way I would like.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> immediately cut off all communication and NEVER EVER use instagram to score stuff. Thats just the dumbest thing ive ever heard of. That practice should stop immediately for yourself. Dont buy.


With due respect, I think you are slightly missing the point here. The "activity" is taking place outside of IG. Not actually through the website. It is more like a global meeting place. It cant be any more risky than tne deep/dark web where there is a much more determined DEA effort and focus.

If I want a gram of 4-Aco-Dmt from matey in UK, or I trusted the S Isomer geezer and was ready to order- I dont need to go to Instagram at all. That step has already been bypassed. Obviously its still risky, but so is any such type of activity.  Call it a calculated risk.

Except maybe a lot harder to know who to trust on IG, easier for scammers.  But it is pretty run of mill. You would not believe how many people follow me literally every day to get my attention so they can try and sell me their medical weed including in this country where they are blatantly trading it in huge quantities every single day all over the country and it looks like good stuff as well. 

I instantly "remove" them, I dont want hundreds of followers who just want to sell my a wide variety if cannabis products. They do my head in really these geezers, I mean the nerve right??

I do try and keep the lowest profile myself I'm just making innocent little enquiries initially without going into any detail being subtle then further discussion can take place elsewhere. Just for a couple trips here and there, is it REALLY such a big deal in the scheme of things and the vastness of the world?

@indigoaura I would say how glad I am to catch the show in time, except it sounds like it has been a slight letdown so far. I hope that redose elevates the experience for you.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> 7:14 - taking a re-dose because it has not quite taken off the way I would like.



Didnt hear more after the re-dose, could be a good thing? How'd it go?!

And if you wouldnt mind reminding us what your approx age and weight is for the threads purposes?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Sounds like it was a classic case of MehDMA. Started to feel nice, but not getting anywhere, strong urge to redose, which no doubt resulted in him falling asleep soon after. If it had been the tits, he'd have been back on here raving about it i can assure you...


----------



## AutoTripper

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Sounds like it was a classic case of MehDMA. Started to feel nice, but not getting anywhere, strong urge to redose, which no doubt resulted in him falling asleep soon after. If it had been the tits, he'd have been back on here raving about it i can assure you...


Just to say, the "He" is in fact a "she".

And I was personally hoping that she had a strong and enjoyable enough experience with the redose, to be distracted enough to just enjoy the time and relax, appraise the entire experience before reporting any more.

But I try to be ever the optimist, or rather wishful thinker. But hey you never know.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Sounds like it was a classic case of MehDMA. Started to feel nice, but not getting anywhere, strong urge to redose, which no doubt resulted in him falling asleep soon after. If it had been the tits, he'd have been back on here raving about it i can assure you...



You may be right..... lmao. Waiting for update. Also curious, how much was your re-dose indigo?


----------



## Xorkoth

Hey guys, a reminder that we do not discuss sources.  I removed the link to the instagram page as the link allows people to know where to get it.  I'm sure it was done innocently but please don't share links in the future.  Thanks!


----------



## indigoaura

Clearly, my motivation to live update all of you diminished as the night wore on. LOL. I was planning to write poetry and truly entertain all of you, but I got distracted.

To clarify the specifics:
I am a 38 year old female, approximately 130 lbs and 5'3".

The last time I rolled was NYE 2018/2019 (So, a bit over a 5 month break).

I have been using MDMA for 19 years.

Based on my notes from last night's journal...

Took 136 mg at 6:00 pm, and began to feel the first signs of rolling at 6:33 pm. I was regularly checking my eye dilation, and I noticed initial eye dilation at 6:39 pm. By 7:10 pm, I made the note, "rolling but not quite."

Isn't that the best description of MehDMA? Rolling but not quite.

I took a 106 mg re-dose at 7:15 pm.

An acquaintance of mine felt like the crystals were hydrated/crystallized with water and that the weight may be off, so I felt that the higher re-dose amt was warranted.

I ended up on the couch under a fuzzy blanket listening to music on headphones for a long time. I did not want to get up, talk, or move. 

There was no significant/notable euphoria, energy, confessional quality, or sensory enhancement. Minimal music enhancement. With a really good roll, I would have a lot of skin enhancement and would be thinking about how good I felt, but that was not the case with this. (It was more like I just like I had eaten a great Thanksgiving dinner and was feeling content before a late afternoon nap.)

I was having eye jitters, and my eyes were VERY dilated. This is probably the most eye dilation I have seen from any MDMA I have used for the last 13 years.

Not a lot of jaw clenching though, and I hardly bit my mouth up at all (although I did somehow manage to bite UNDER my tongue. I don't even know how that is possible).

I felt very comfortable on the couch and content, but it was a "sleepy" contentment. 

At 9:09 pm I took an 80 mg re-dose because I felt the effects waning. 

So, I guess based on the math, I felt the full effects of each dose roughly 45 minutes after taking the dose, but the effects only seemed to last about an hour before it seemed like it was dropping off.

I really held off on that third dose too, because I knew it was going to be the final amount that I consumed for the evening. I probably felt the effects of dose two waning around 8:50 pm or so, but did not take that third dose until 9:09 pm.

Now, here is where this batch diverges from other underwhelming batches I have had in the past, because somewhere after that third dose it went from couch cuddling to sex, and the sex was awesome. Since one of my primary goals is sexual enhancement with my partner, this batch was way better than the last several I have tried. I stopped making notes, but the sex went on for several hours. Huzzah.

And, in addition, when I finally came down it was a very smooth comedown. No feelings of sickness like with other batches. It was just like, all of a sudden, I was sober. Not cracked out sober, but just normal sober. I had no issues sleeping. The only abnormality was a slight headache. Just minor. Could have been due to dehydration. I ate a few bites of a sandwich and went to sleep despite the headache. I do not usually have a headache after rolling, for whatever that is worth.

Now, I feel fine. I don't have a strong afterglow, but I also do not feel messed up or "off" at all. I feel basically exactly how I felt yesterday before I started rolling.

So, here is the less wordy summary:

Dose: 136 mg + 106 mg + 80 mg

Effects:
Euphoria: minimal
Empathy: minimal
Music enhancement: minimal
Eye dilation: Extreme
Jaw clenching: minimal
Sexual enhancement: Good
Comedown: clean
Afterglow: none
Sickness: none

So, overall, I would do it again. Although, I think my friend may be right about the dose being off. I would probably go for a very high first dose next time. Fuck it. Why not? One of my main problems recently has been getting sick afterwards. That just felt awful, and I don't need to deal with it. It caused me to miss too much work the following week. Even with the lack of euphoria, I'll take the great sex and the minimal comedown that this batch offered.

I find it very interesting how much variation there is from batch to batch. Out of all of them, my first DW order from last summer (the one that advertised as being safrole derived) had the most empathy, confessional quality, and desire to be social. I was never able to get more of that batch to try, but if I had, I would have increased the dose. 

Seems like a lab test would be very informative here to understand the percentage of MDMA in each dose. I would guess this is probably only 70% or so, but with minimal additives/impurities. Maybe it would be beneficial to perform my own cleaning of this product and see what is left afterwards?

Another odd side-note, usually after the MehDMA, I can't drink coffee. It makes me sick/dizzy. I am a typical coffee drinker. But, after this stuff, I drank my coffee fine with no dizziness or sickness.

And, one final sidenote...I had some lab tests done recently and they showed that I have very low dopamine levels. I think this could be a factor for me in regards to the lack of intensity to the experience. This is one reason also that I think it is important to understand my age/sex. As a 38 year old female, I am having hormonal changes that can cause fluctuating dopamine levels in response to fluctuating estrogen levels. So, that is a factor I need to keep in mind as I continue my experimentation and "research."


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Clearly, my motivation to live update all of you diminished as the night wore on. LOL. I was planning to write poetry and truly entertain all of you, but I got distracted.
> 
> To clarify the specifics:
> I am a 38 year old female, approximately 130 lbs and 5'3".
> 
> The last time I rolled was NYE 2018/2019 (So, a bit over a 5 month break).
> 
> I have been using MDMA for 19 years.
> 
> Based on my notes from last night's journal...
> 
> Took 136 mg at 6:00 pm, and began to feel the first signs of rolling at 6:33 pm. I was regularly checking my eye dilation, and I noticed initial eye dilation at 6:39 pm. By 7:10 pm, I made the note, "rolling but not quite."
> 
> Isn't that the best description of MehDMA? Rolling but not quite.
> 
> I took a 106 mg re-dose at 7:15 pm.
> 
> An acquaintance of mine felt like the crystals were hydrated/crystallized with water and that the weight may be off, so I felt that the higher re-dose amt was warranted.
> 
> I ended up on the couch under a fuzzy blanket listening to music on headphones for a long time. I did not want to get up, talk, or move.
> 
> There was no significant/notable euphoria, energy, confessional quality, or sensory enhancement. Minimal music enhancement. With a really good roll, I would have a lot of skin enhancement and would be thinking about how good I felt, but that was not the case with this. (It was more like I just like I had eaten a great Thanksgiving dinner and was feeling content before a late afternoon nap.)
> 
> I was having eye jitters, and my eyes were VERY dilated. This is probably the most eye dilation I have seen from any MDMA I have used for the last 13 years.
> 
> Not a lot of jaw clenching though, and I hardly bit my mouth up at all (although I did somehow manage to bite UNDER my tongue. I don't even know how that is possible).
> 
> I felt very comfortable on the couch and content, but it was a "sleepy" contentment.
> 
> At 9:09 pm I took an 80 mg re-dose because I felt the effects waning.
> 
> So, I guess based on the math, I felt the full effects of each dose roughly 45 minutes after taking the dose, but the effects only seemed to last about an hour before it seemed like it was dropping off.
> 
> I really held off on that third dose too, because I knew it was going to be the final amount that I consumed for the evening. I probably felt the effects of dose two waning around 8:50 pm or so, but did not take that third dose until 9:09 pm.
> 
> Now, here is where this batch diverges from other underwhelming batches I have had in the past, because somewhere after that third dose it went from couch cuddling to sex, and the sex was awesome. Since one of my primary goals is sexual enhancement with my partner, this batch was way better than the last several I have tried. I stopped making notes, but the sex went on for several hours. Huzzah.
> 
> And, in addition, when I finally came down it was a very smooth comedown. No feelings of sickness like with other batches. It was just like, all of a sudden, I was sober. Not cracked out sober, but just normal sober. I had no issues sleeping. The only abnormality was a slight headache. Just minor. Could have been due to dehydration. I ate a few bites of a sandwich and went to sleep despite the headache. I do not usually have a headache after rolling, for whatever that is worth.
> 
> Now, I feel fine. I don't have a strong afterglow, but I also do not feel messed up or "off" at all. I feel basically exactly how I felt yesterday before I started rolling.
> 
> So, here is the less wordy summary:
> 
> Dose: 136 mg + 106 mg + 80 mg
> 
> Effects:
> Euphoria: minimal
> Empathy: minimal
> Music enhancement: minimal
> Eye dilation: Extreme
> Jaw clenching: minimal
> Sexual enhancement: Good
> Comedown: clean
> Afterglow: none
> Sickness: none
> 
> So, overall, I would do it again. Although, I think my friend may be right about the dose being off. I would probably go for a very high first dose next time. Fuck it. Why not? One of my main problems recently has been getting sick afterwards. That just felt awful, and I don't need to deal with it. It caused me to miss too much work the following week. Even with the lack of euphoria, I'll take the great sex and the minimal comedown that this batch offered.
> 
> I find it very interesting how much variation there is from batch to batch. Out of all of them, my first DW order from last summer (the one that advertised as being safrole derived) had the most empathy, confessional quality, and desire to be social. I was never able to get more of that batch to try, but if I had, I would have increased the dose.
> 
> Seems like a lab test would be very informative here to understand the percentage of MDMA in each dose. I would guess this is probably only 70% or so, but with minimal additives/impurities. Maybe it would be beneficial to perform my own cleaning of this product and see what is left afterwards?
> 
> Another odd side-note, usually after the MehDMA, I can't drink coffee. It makes me sick/dizzy. I am a typical coffee drinker. But, after this stuff, I drank my coffee fine with no dizziness or sickness.
> 
> And, one final sidenote...I had some lab tests done recently and they showed that I have very low dopamine levels. I think this could be a factor for me in regards to the lack of intensity to the experience. This is one reason also that I think it is important to understand my age/sex. As a 38 year old female, I am having hormonal changes that can cause fluctuating dopamine levels in response to fluctuating estrogen levels. So, that is a factor I need to keep in mind as I continue my experimentation and "research."



amazing report! Thank you for the info.  Sounds like mehdma to me still, anyone else?


----------



## epic11

So after indigos recent trip report here, i decided to dive into erowids experience pages and sort them by the newest date in order to see what todays experiences are generally like.






						MDMA Reports - General : Erowid Experience Vaults
					

Erowid Experience Vaults: An Experience



					www.erowid.org
				




(If the above link didnt sort by newest date to oldest, just change it yourself)

The report posted on 4-27-19 shows me that this stuff that we are speaking of still exists. What a beautiful report.


----------



## EntheoDjinn

indigoaura said:


> ................, but did not take that third dose until 9:09 pm.......


When did you finally come down Indigoaura?

Curiouser and curiouser - You got eye-wiggles and eye dilation as well as a small degree of bruxism.  And do you reckon this was MehDMA or maybe just low purity?


----------



## indigoaura

I should have made a much clearer note about when I had stopped "rolling." I think I looked at a clock at one point and felt like it was over, but forgot to write it down. Also, once we started having sex around 10:30, the focus shifted from the observable effects of the drug to other sensory stimuli, so I honestly don't know exactly when I came down. Sorry. That is definitely a data point I wish that I had. If I had to guess, I would say the point that I just felt totally sober was probably around 1.

Eye wiggles and bruxism sometimes occur for me with MehDMA, so that is not unusual. The eye dilation was unusual for this batch.

Without any euphoria, empathy, music enhancement, or feelings of love...hard to believe this batch is completely "right." However, it really did feel clean compared to other options. I felt slightly queasy today but nothing like I have felt with the other batches. I will keep posting this week about my after-effects and whether I have a gloomy Tuesday or not.

My friend is planning on dehydrating some of this product to see what that does to the weight. This should give me a much better idea of how strong it was.

Overall, I think this was a clean MehDMA. If MehDMA usually has a lot of byproducts etc, this felt like it was not weighed down with all that. However, it still felt like a slightly different drug that MDMA. Could that be explained with weight? Maybe? We'll see what is revealed there.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, epic11, thanks for posting that link. This is what MDMA feels like. It is nice to read a report that mirrors my own past experiences.

"Physically I felt very euphoric, with heightened sense of touch and movement like stretching or walking felt extremely blissful and euphoric- like on the level of an orgasm (not that it felt sexual in any way, but it's the best comparison for the intensity of how good it felt). It was different than my past experiences, where the physical euphoria came almost in waves, like a massage... this time it felt like I was hooked up to an electrical current of physical bliss, and the intensity could be turned up or down based on how much I was being touched or by how much I was moving. Touching felt wonderful, but moving was simply indescribable... I became so excited about this amazing sensation that I grabbed by boyfriend's hand and insisted we walk down the hiking trail next to our campsite because I wanted him to see how amazing walking felt, and joyfully skipped with him over to the treailhead. I became completely overjoyed and overwhelmed with how completely perfectly amazingly good I physically felt from walking... "

The whole experience used to be one prolonged orgasm.


----------



## indigoaura

Notice though, epic11, if you scroll down in that report it states at the bottom that the experience date was 2010, even though it was just published in April. So, that experience is not a recent batch of MDMA.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Notice though, epic11, if you scroll down in that report it states at the bottom that the experience date was 2010, even though it was just published in April. So, that experience is not a recent batch of MDMA.


thanks i had not noticed that. Important info.


----------



## indigoaura

Just a quick update on comedown...

Sunday night, I had some muscle twitches while I was trying to go to sleep. Monday night, I had some indigestion & I awoke frequently in the night and had some odd dreams. Today, I have had some minor "brain zaps" throughout the day (don't know what else to call them).

No depression or emotional feelings. 

The muscle twitching and zaps are not typical for me. I have only dealt with zaps a few times ever, and as I recall it was from really overdoing it and taking a lot more than I took on Friday night. In the classic era, I would eat 5 pills in a night and never have any twitches or zaps. The comedown from classic MDMA was always emotional and weepy, or just deep/intense feelings in general. 

More than anything else, this makes me feel like something is off about this product and makes me hesitant to use it again. At the very least, it will go to a lab. Not sure that will give a lot of info, but, better than nothing.


----------



## indigoaura

Let me put it in specific context...

This is a pill I sent in to ecstasy data:








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #879 - Crocodile, 879
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




They were everywhere at the time, in yellow and green. If you search for Crocodile on ecstasydata from 2001-2002 you will see that all the samples tested as MDMA and they all weighed between 260 mg and 280 mg.

I specifically recall that I ate more of those pills than I had ever eaten of any pill before, one night in December of 2001. I had 5 or 6. How much MDMA do you think was in each pill?

My point is that, even after that foolish binge, I did not have any physical side effects. No zaps, no twitches, no indigestion, no nausea etc. The fallout from that comedown ended up breaking up me and the guy I was with at that time, due to a lot of emo shit about his ex-girlfriend. However - nobody was sick.

Weird brain zaps from 3 caps is just weird, and not in line with the MDMA profile that I am familiar with.


----------



## indigoaura

I was digging around looking at pictures of various chemicals' responses to reagent testing. I saw that MDAI looks alarmingly similar to MDMA. Is MDAI one of the chemicals that also shares the same molar mass? Reading that it is a more sedating, sleepy version of MDMA that requires a higher dose.


----------



## psy997

Mine seemed to be MehDMA as well, also clean feeling, but not as it should be.

On the comeup I actually broke into the everything is amazing place, and then it went away not 15-20 minutes into it, and by 3hrs in, was mostly down. I spent most of the time after the first hour laying under a heavy comforter listening to afterhours style house mixes.

Ugh. So frustrated.


----------



## Wiserthanearlier

This thread is amazing and i have followed it for some time.
It would be great if we could summarize a bit external of this? 

We could remove all subjective views and all experience descriptions to isolate the facts relating to original question. 
My point being, some great discussion and debates have been worked through and we could minimize double up or rehashing old points with some controls


----------



## indigoaura

psy997 - So sorry to hear that your experience was lackluster too. I had that same feeling on the comeup. For a moment, it seems like it is going somewhere beautiful, but then it just never gets there. Like a dud firecracker. 

Wiserthanearlier, glad you have enjoyed the thread. I agree that we need a sticky at the front end of the thread for newcomers, to summarize the now nearly 90 pages of discussion. The conversation has been summarized at various points, but those summaries are lost in this thread too. 

I would be happy to revise what I previously wrote to send to researchers, but I cannot make it a sticky at the front of the thread because I did not start the thread.

@Le Junk ?

Update: No more zaps today. Had a sort of swimmy feeling a few times, but nothing remarkable. Slept better last night, but still woke up a few times and had more weird dreams. (Why are people robbing my grandma in my dreams...? Srsly.) No depression. No agitation. No strong emotions of any kind. I feel basically normal.


----------



## indigoaura

With my limited chemistry knowledge, I am reviewing this document (posted previously): https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

It states: "The central nervous system (CNS) activity produced by substituted phenylethylamines ranges from pure stimulant activity to absolute hallucinogenic activity. Modification of the general phenethylamine structure, such as addition of a substituent or alteration of substitution pattern, can significally change or abolish the CNS action of the parent compound (p. 18)."

Is the basic concept here that these minor deviations can significantly alter the experience?

The writer of this dissertation, Tamer Awad, has focused his academic career on studying GCMS and other drug testing concepts. I would like to contact him directly. He may be able to provide clarification on what we are theorizing.

Here is a list of his articles:


			https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/38260156_Tamer_Awad


----------



## Dresden

Yes, minor alterations in chemical structure can and do cause major changes in effects, usually idiopathically.  As for the original topic, there is no doubt in my mind that SOMETHING is wrong with the mdma available today.  At this point, I am willing to entertain any and all remotely plausible explanations.  For example, perhaps the government is broadcasting the opposite of mdma's chemical resonance energy frequency, thereby cancelling out a person's roll via physical destructive electromagnetic interference?


----------



## indigoaura

@Dresden I cannot quite tell your tone. Hopefully you don't think the whole conversation is as plausible as mind beams from the government. Since there are users who are able to experience a classic roll, that seems implausible anyhow.


----------



## Dresden

Well, I'm glad you can for one still experience a plausible classic roll BUT did you ever experience the pre 1997 rolls (both mda, mde, and mdma) like us old skool ravers did??  There just is no comparison!


----------



## epic11

Dresden said:


> Yes, minor alterations in chemical structure can and do cause major changes in effects, usually idiopathically.  As for the original topic, there is no doubt in my mind that SOMETHING is wrong with the mdma available today.  At this point, I am willing to entertain any and all remotely plausible explanations.  For example, perhaps the government is broadcasting the opposite of mdma's chemical resonance energy frequency, thereby cancelling out a person's roll via physical destructive electromagnetic interference?







indigoaura said:


> @Dresden I cannot quite tell your tone. Hopefully you don't think the whole conversation is as plausible as mind beams from the government. Since there are users who are able to experience a classic roll, that seems implausible anyhow.



I believe hes stretching the ideas of why its not the same into some new territory/idea, thats all. Cell phone towers for instance mess with frequencies all around you. While what hes suggesting seems like a big feat, (gov directly modifying waves to prevent people from feeling that love) i think he was just presenting a different idea. Me? I think its a stretch.


----------



## Dresden

It's IS a huge stretch, so much so that I am in love with the idea and feel sure I have single handedly divined the true nature of our mdma drought!  Either that, or we live in a post nuclear Hades where mdma could never be freely shared because of the pervasive and generally wretched and cynical and unloving and unappreciative and shallow attitude of the inhabitants here who do not even realize that they are in fact dead.


----------



## AutoTripper

Actually, its not such a stretch at all, in fact its a very good shout.
Except their focus and intention is not to block the MDMA experience specifically.
But it is certainly to lower our vibrations and consciousness and keep us from feeling joy and happiness as much as possible in the most repressed fearful state we can be kept in like timid sheep.

And it is very deliberate we are bombarded heavily with all sorts of technology primarily EMF related. Some people are much more sensitive to EMF's than others. It has not been recognised a fraction enough for the absolute health hazard it has been for so long and the exposure is increasing exponentially I think 5G will unquestionably have an effect on people's rolls it is basically a military weapon which will serve no purpose other than being used against humanity for the sake of control and oppression.

So it is an idea very worth exploring that the toxic soup of EMF's and technology in which we bathe these days could be preventing our consciousness from achieving certain mental and physical states of bliss.

Now I'm not saying that I think this is the matter at Heart here I think the problem surely does lie with the substance itself and the methods of production, and I think it will be quite some time before the bottom is reached here with a satisfying and complete explanation.

@indigoaura one think I am curious about is what you were experience has been over recent years with pressed pills. I am assuming that the majority or all of your dark Web MDMA is coming from America, and I wondered if you had had any pressed pills which you were confident came from Holland and whether there was any difference in the experience.


----------



## indigoaura

So...I could roll if I went farther away from cell phone towers?


----------



## indigoaura

In all seriousness, Dresden, I currently am not one of the people able to experience a "classic roll." For all I know, my brain is just broken. It is possible.

@AutoTripper I only had one experience with pills since my original supplier quit. It was a really bad experience, and may have been one of the triggers for my partner's health decline. It was a long time ago (maybe 2009?), so hard to remember. But, a local acquaintance had some pills that we bought. They were large pills with no symbol, multi colored brown. Odd shape. They tested okay with reagent testing. I think we ended up eating 3 or 4 of them. Afterwords, we were SICK. So sick. This was the first time I ever encountered this bullshit nausea and stomach illness days later. It was one of the worst comedowns ever. I made a thread here on BL abt it, but I cannot find it now.

Other than that, I have not encountered any pills or sought any out. I could try to order some, I suppose, but I hear so much about LTC coming from European pills, that makes me nervous.


----------



## indigoaura

I have emailed the university where researcher T. Awad may be faculty. I asked for his email address so I can email him directly. The website for the university is in Arabic, so, I cannot find his email by browsing the website.

Here is another potentially relevant article that he published:








						Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Methoxymethcathinones Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine
					

Abstract. The methoxymethcathinones are uniquely regioisomeric with the controlled drug substance 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (3,4-MDMA) or Ecstacy. The v




					academic.oup.com
				




"The methoxymethcathinones are uniquely regioisomeric with the controlled drug substance 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (3,4-MDMA) or Ecstacy. The various isomeric forms of the methoxymethcathinones have mass spectra essentially equivalent to 3,4-MDMA. They all have a molecular weight of 193 and major fragment ions in their electron ionization mass spectra at _m/z_ 58 and 135/136. Differentiation by mass spectrometry was only possible after formation of the perfluoroacyl derivatives, pentafluoropropionylamides (PFPA), and heptafluorobutrylamides (HFBA). Gas chromatographic separation on nonpolar stationary phases successfully resolved the three methcathinones from 2,3- and 3,4-MDMA as the PFPA and HFBA derivatives."


----------



## psy997

What brilliant insight you add to the thread, Dresden ?


----------



## AutoTripper

Just one quick story folks. 2003, 4 day outdoor party in UK. No sleep, 4 days session. At least 30 pills, several tabs, loads of ket and some truffles.

But there was one remarkable moment. At the time I assumed it was just my imagination but it was so real to me I couldn't ignore it and it really stuck in my mind and made an impression.
I was so high and in such a free mental state and different level of perception on ecstasy LSD and ketamine which could be a wondrous combination and literally take you into different dimensions and portals while still being lucid and conscious of who you are and so much around you.

Anyway I suddenly became extremely bothered and tormented by what I was convinced was an external signal of some sort which was like a powerful suppressing irritant to my consciousness and brain.

It was genuinely as though I had suddenly tuned or tapped into this whatever it was I remember looking up at the sky being absolutely convinced that the government's or some malicious demonic entity or force was beaming some sort of technological wavelength frequency which was having an oppressive effect on my consciousness.

It was a remarkable and extremely real experience where it genuinely did seem as though I had broken through the usual filters to perceive something which was already present but normally beyond our conscious perception but affecting us the entire time.

I did not know anything about energy technology being used as a weapon Against Humanity back then which it has been for a seriously long time like since the second world war at least after all of the frequencies were studied for their effects on human biology and consciousness and these frequencies have been purposely used for all of our broadcasting and technology ever since not to mention the dark secret technologies which we have not been told about of course.

I am quite confident that I was not imagining that experience and I did indeed tune into whatever frequency it was at that time which was being used as a general population oppressent.

@indigoauara I understand your apprehension about the pressed pills. Its a shame you cant feel confident about them anymore because there may be some useful lessons to gain from trying pills from a variety of sources and locations.

Regarding LTC and pill location etc, from browsing on here and redditva lot lately, the impression I have got is that Europeans and Brits appear to be far less prone to, focussed on, or even aware of LTC.

And much more accepting of MDMA's side effects, with more reports and declarations of regular and heavy use over time without major problems.
Not making a point here. I have only dipped my nose into this subject just very recently of course. I have so much to get my head around.


----------



## indigoaura

Update on the product I just used.

My friend did a little experiment. He took some of the product, added some water to dissolve it, and then he heated it to dry up the water and re-crystalize it. He did this to 54 mg. However, after the water had evaporated, there were only 34 mg remaining. In his opinion, the product is only about 63% MDMA (assuming all of the remaining dry product is MDMA, which I think it doubtful). 

This would mean that my doses were actually 85 mg, 65 mg, and 55 mg. Would this explain the experience? I am not entirely convinced it would, as I used to eat half a pill and still feel the euphoric effects. But, maybe my tolerance plus a low dose would create a substandard vibe.

I will be sending it off to Energy Control to gain more info about it.


----------



## Dresden

If you think my idea is far fetched, then you underestimate our government's degree of sinisterity.


----------



## indigoaura

Dresden, I have actually looked into the electromagnetic radiation of 5G and other similar topics before. I find it interesting and troubling, but I don't know a lot about it. It is just hard to tell on a forum sometimes when people are being serious and when they are sort of making fun of you. Like, maybe you think all our ideas are far fetched and are just trying to make a point.


----------



## Dresden

I am dead serious.


----------



## epic11

The reason i said dresdens thought was a stretch specifically when it comes to mdma, is that ive had amazing rolls with all this shit around us before.  I absolutely believe there could be some manipulation going on, but i cant let it take over my mind, its just not healthy. I understand it though, truly i do. Dresden isnt trying to make fun of anyone. Just like we cant see certain things until a psyche is dropped (acid, 2cb, mushrooms), we also cant see all these frequencies around us. I know for a fact they dont exist in nature. While i believe theres a bit of merit to the idea, I think we are better off finding what specifically changed in the production process before moving on to that. Have we figured that out yet? Have they found a new cut? Wtf is going on? Im interested in indigo's recent test.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Update on the product I just used.
> 
> My friend did a little experiment. He took some of the product, added some water to dissolve it, and then he heated it to dry up the water and re-crystalize it. He did this to 54 mg. However, after the water had evaporated, there were only 34 mg remaining. In his opinion, the product is only about 63% MDMA (assuming all of the remaining dry product is MDMA, which I think it doubtful).
> 
> This would mean that my doses were actually 85 mg, 65 mg, and 55 mg. Would this explain the experience? I am not entirely convinced it would, as I used to eat half a pill and still feel the euphoric effects. But, maybe my tolerance plus a low dose would create a substandard vibe.
> 
> I will be sending it off to Energy Control to gain more info about it.




If those were you doses, and we know the initial dose is the most important with mdma, then yes it could explain your experience. 85 a starter dose would barely affect me. Likely, 85 would have me in an annoyed state of not feeling it enough. haha

@indigoaura, any chance you can take a macro shot of a small piece of this product? I would like to see what it looks like in comparison to other "meh dma" ive had. If you need help stripping a photos properties for privacy concerns im willing to help. 

In my experience, most "Meh dma" follows the looks of this sample: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=7238 Its quite beautiful looking actually, but its not producing that mongy fucked up loving feeling.


----------



## EntheoDjinn

indigoaura said:


> "The methoxymethcathinones are uniquely regioisomeric with the controlled drug substance 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (3,4-MDMA) or Ecstacy. The various isomeric forms of the methoxymethcathinones have mass spectra essentially equivalent to 3,4-MDMA. They all have a molecular weight of 193 and major fragment ions in their electron ionization mass spectra at _m/z_ 58 and 135/136. Differentiation by mass spectrometry was only possible after formation of the perfluoroacyl derivatives, pentafluoropropionylamides (PFPA), and heptafluorobutrylamides (HFBA). Gas chromatographic separation on nonpolar stationary phases successfully resolved the three methcathinones from 2,3- and 3,4-MDMA as the PFPA and HFBA derivatives."


I'm not a chemist but this looks interesting (thanks Indigoaura).  There was earlier discussion about the possibility of 2,3 MDMA being synthesised (and subsequently discounted) and also about similar molecular masses of other possible substitute MDMA substances.  The methoxymethcathinones include para-methoxymethcathinone which is Methedrone.  

GChem - are you anywhere around and could comment on this?  I've never used Methedrone but are there any folks here who could chime in about the similarities in effects.  I can see from reading that Methedrone itself does not fit the effects profiles described for the MehDMA here, but could there be another methoxymethcathinone that does?


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 - I posted a picture a few pages back. It does look like the pic that you just posted, but the crystals are bigger. I do not have a lot of faith in the test. I think it will show MDMA, but there is only one way to find out.

@Dresden - Interestingly, both of the best rolls I have had in recent memory occurred outside of my own city, now that I think about it.


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> Update on the product I just used.
> 
> My friend did a little experiment. He took some of the product, added some water to dissolve it, and then he heated it to dry up the water and re-crystalize it. He did this to 54 mg. However, after the water had evaporated, there were only 34 mg remaining. In his opinion, the product is only about 63% MDMA (assuming all of the remaining dry product is MDMA, which I think it doubtful).
> 
> This would mean that my doses were actually 85 mg, 65 mg, and 55 mg. Would this explain the experience? I am not entirely convinced it would, as I used to eat half a pill and still feel the euphoric effects. But, maybe my tolerance plus a low dose would create a substandard vibe.
> 
> I will be sending it off to Energy Control to gain more info about it.



That is not recrystalization. that is just heating something up in water and then removing the water which is totally pointless, everything that was there at the start will be there at the end.

If you take something dissolve it in water then evaporate the water then you will have exactly the same mass that you started with because otherwise where does the mass go???  In this case you lose stuff to mechanical losses (stuck to things) due to handling and poor technique so the experiment is completely useless and a waste of time.

recrystalization in its most basic form is this, dissolve in the minimum hot solvent, cool or concentrate until it starts to crystallize, cool filter of the liquid (the mother liquor) and wash solids with cold solvent. The impurities are retained dissolved in the mother liquor along with some of the product.  The solid is higher purity than the starting material but there is less of it, some is loss of impurities and loss of some product in the mother, even if the starting meterial was extremely pure there would still be losses in recrystalization.

The most plausible and scientific explanation for the recent bleating about MDMA quality is due to several factors.

The modern binders in pills are terrible for reliable release (see the paper below) and dissolution. Polyvinylpyrrolidinone binders also can hold MDMA even in solution further slowing release.

Most crystalline MDMA has an inactive bulking agent it, this cut quite possibly doesn't show up on GC-MS or LC-MS analysis the only clue is the MDMA freebase content is lower than it should be, but Energy Control do not have quantitative calibration curves for MDMA.

The active ingredient is pretty much only MDMA and not cut with other active stimulants as it used to be previously

Pure racemic MDMA is quite sedating. Pure S enantiomer is more sedating but there is next to zero chance of optically active MDMA  being out there.

lastly people change and nostalgia along with set and setting play a big part in the effects.


This is interesting:

*Variability in content and dissolution profiles of MDMA tablets collected in the UK between 2001 and 2018 - A potential risk to users?*
10.1002/dta.2605

MDMA (‘ecstasy’) tablets are widely used recreationally, and not only vary in their appearance, but also in MDMA content. Recently, the prevalence of high‐content tablets is of concern to public health authorities. To compare UK data with other countries, we have evaluated MDMA content of 412 tablets collected from the UK, 2001‐2018, and have investigated within‐batch content variability for a sub‐set of these samples. In addition, we have investigated dissolution profiles of tablets using pharmaceutical industry‐standard dissolution experiments on 247 tablets. All analyses were carried out using LC‐MS/MS. Our data supported other studies, in that recent samples (2016 – 2018) tend to have higher MDMA content compared to earlier years. In 2018, the median MDMA content exceeded 100 mg free‐base for the first time. Dramatic within‐batch content variability (up to 136 mg difference) was also demonstrated. Statistical evaluation of dissolution profiles at 15‐minutes allowed tablets to be categorised as fast‐, intermediate‐, or slow‐releasing, but no tablet characteristics correlated with dissolution classification. Hence, there would be no way of users knowing a priori whether a tablet is more likely to be fast or slow‐releasing. Further, within‐batch variation in dissolution rate was observed. Rapid assessment of MDMA content alone provides important data for harm reduction, but does not account for variability in (i) the remainder of tablets in a batch, nor (ii) MDMA dissolution profiles. Clinical manifestations of MDMA toxicity, especially for high‐content, slow‐releasing tablets, may be delayed or prolonged, and there is a significant risk of users re‐dosing if absorption is delayed.


----------



## AutoTripper

@vecktor hi dude. So just to be absolutely clear on pne thing- are you saying (or not, but it is the case anyway), that with regard to these troublesome, clingy binders, even when the pill is smashed down to fine powder- this will make no difference, and the binder will still be holding on to the MDMA?

I would really hope not, I mean surely these are just ingrdients pressed together by force right?
Not chemically bonded?


----------



## vecktor

AutoTripper said:


> @vecktor hi dude. So just to be absolutely clear on pne thing- are you saying (or not, but it is the case anyway), that with regard to these troublesome, clingy binders, even when the pill is smashed down to fine powder- this will make no difference, and the binder will still be holding on to the MDMA?
> 
> I would really hope not, I mean surely these are just ingrdients pressed together by force right?
> Not chemically bonded?



I don't know for certain, some PVP povidones can bind to organic molecules even in water, if the binder has been added as a solution or a slurry before pressing, then even the ground up pills will still be bonded just as smaller particles. 
A lot of the current crop of pills are physically very hard probably with no disintegrants in the formulation and are bulked with insoluble excipients so release is going to be problematic. I suspect that the newer chinese pill presses are not as high pressure as the old ones so they need stronger binders to make a decent tablet but that is complete speculation.
As far as I know this hasn't been published if it has been studied.

In the pharmaceutical industry generic tablet formulation has been very troublesome over the years, even practically the same formulation has different release properties. The classic example is Phenytoin for epilepsy where some of the generics had massively different bioavailability and release properties, switching from isoluble Calcium Sulfate to soluble lactose caused huge increase in bioavailability and toxicity. 20% bioavailability variation between generics is common


----------



## AutoTripper

vecktor said:


> I don't know for certain, some PVP povidones can bind to organic molecules even in water, if the binder has been added as a solution or a slurry before pressing, then even the ground up pills will still be bonded just as smaller particles.
> A lot of the current crop of pills are physically very hard probably with no disintegrants in the formulation and are bulked with insoluble excipients so release is going to be problematic. I suspect that the newer chinese pill presses are not as high pressure as the old ones so they need stronger binders to make a decent tablet but that is complete speculation.
> As far as I know this hasn't been published if it has been studied.
> 
> In the pharmaceutical industry generic tablet formulation has been very troublesome over the years, even practically the same formulation has different release properties. The classic example is Phenytoin for epilepsy where some of the generics had massively different bioavailability and release properties, switching from isoluble Calcium Sulfate to soluble lactose caused huge increase in bioavailability and toxicity. 20% bioavailability variation between generics is common


Thanks very much for your reply and expansion. Which makes sense. I have definitely never been keen on the idea of mega hard, compact, pretty, laminated pills.

The 2 Bowser's I have to try, I was very pleased to see are extremely crumbly, very well pressed and formed, which is impressive considering they are like the White Cliffs of Dover lol. Chuck a little weather their way and they crumble like dust. 

They appear visibly to be crystals simply pressed with something to keep the shape enough. 
However, the very first ever legendary Mitzubishi pills, I can never recall if it was late 97 or early 98. I think 98 (?).  They were really hard, difficult to snap, no disintegration.
Big pills too. As strong and powerful and clean and transcendental as any single pill I ever took.  
Fast, normal come up too. The next batch, 3 weeks later, same guy, same Rave, different location- they were more crumbly and nowhere near as amazing. Just decent pills.
I did take 2 big yellow Mitzubishis at the 1999 4 day Exodus festival. The guy who I got it from, much older than me, old Skool with real character- "Bov" his name was. 

He adamantly swore blind to me that these yellow Mitsubishis were the very best pills at this entire Festival.  Just the way he was and told me this I genuinely believed him at the time and didn't hesitate to try one. Sure enough it was an outright incredible ecstasy pill. Easily the best I tried that that festival that year and the whole place was flooded with stuff that would make people's dreams these days by the sounds of it.  Just tons of amazing E's everywhere.  You didnt need to walk more than 10 feet to score multiple presses, all high quality.

And these yellow Mitzis we're just like the very original ones and extremely hard and big. 

I took lots of both crumbly, and hard pressed Mitzis over following years. Like other brands too, but Mitzis in particular would commonly be both- hard, smooth ones, and crumblies.
But I don't recall having made any firm associations regarding quality, potency etc, hard vs soft.

Maybe the harder ones had a slower/delayed come up, but not enough for me to have any memory of experiencing or discussing it.

So that's my only point which isn't really a point- just how these different press styles have been around. But I havent seen the modern hard pills. And obviously even if you cannot tell the difference between an old school and modern day hard pressed MDMA pill, we have no idea what ingredients are used and their properties.


----------



## indigoaura

@vecktor Let me clarify a few things...

My friend was not trying to recrystallize the product for the purpose of removing impurities. He saw what it looked like and commented that he thought water/liquid had been used in the crystallization process originally to make the crystals look so large.  He suggested heating it on a hot plate to remove the water and see what was left, but when he attempted to crush it, it would not crush at all and was very hard. So, he added a few drops of water to facilitate crushing it. The sole purpose of doing this was to compare weight before and after to see if there was liquid in the product originally. This is how he explained it to me. I do not know enough about chemistry to know whether his hypothesis was reasonable or not, admittedly. But, the point was not to purify or clean it, just to see if water had been used to make the crystals.

Your comments on the binders are relevant and interesting. I have noticed a difference simply from gelatin vs. cellulose capsules, so I do not doubt that the binding agents in the pills could impact how/where/when the pills dissolve which could significantly alter the roll. Great link. Thanks for posting it. I have not been getting pressed pills, I have been getting powder/crystals. Do you think these same concepts apply there? 

What would happen if I plugged? How would that affect the product absorption?

But... we're not "bleating" here. And, your dismissive final comments about #nostaligia and #setting are long ago disputed and addressed in the past 90 pages. New/virgin users who have been underwhelmed by MehDMA do not have nostalgia, and the set/settings experimented with have been wide and varied. Also, old pills were not always cut with stimulants. I sent my old pills in to the lab, and there was not speed in them. They tested as MDMA, just like the molly I am sending in now tests as MDMA, but the profile and effects are wildly different. This is confirmed by multiple people besides me. The question is, why?


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper  Thinking back, I have to agree with you. I had soft, crumbly pills that were good. I had firm, smooth pills that were good. I don't recall ever noticing that one type was better than the other at that time (2000-2005).


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> @AutoTripper  Thinking back, I have to agree with you. I had soft, crumbly pills that were good. I had firm, smooth pills that were good. I don't recall ever noticing that one type was better than the other at that time (2000-2005).



The crux of the point I was trying to make is that modern pills seem to use strong binders to make decent physical pills.
I don't know this for certain but I suspect that the proliferation of cheaper smaller Chinese presses is soemthing to do with it.

In the 90s commercial pills were usually pressed with a decent pharma press, on smaller scale something like a Manesty F series single punch which has a high punch pressure easily up to 4 tons with pre compresion and on larger scale a mutliple turret press. With a decent press physically good pills can be made with limited binder and dispersable bulking agents like lactose. Decent Manesty and Stoke presses are very rare today, the presses that are still around are often 30 plus years old and worn out.

To make it more complicated there was a lot of repressing going on, take for example the mitsubishi pressing, the dies for the Mitsubishi pill were very easy to get in the late 90s and early 2000s so there were multiple pressings in mutliple locations mostly in the Brabant region but also in Liverpool UK and Southern Ireland, some were virgin presses from powder and filler, some were represses of ground pills, in the EU often with added amphetamine and other ingredients, adding amphetamine sulphate tended to cause the tablets to become damp or crumbly. Some Mitsubishis were analysed as MDA too.
Today you can buy tooling for any pill design online so the press design means nothing.

There are a lot of new and cheap Chinese presses around today, in general  these are capable of reliably generating much lower pressures and as they wear the pressure the can generate gets worse and worse which means stronger binders are needed to hold the pill together and fill the voids.

Crystal can and is cut. I am not going to publically say how I think it is done, other than to say it can be done in a way that doesn't show up on GCMS or LCMS. Nobody seems to check the salt form of MDMA, it is sort of assumed it is MDMA hydrochloride but is it???

I am not the person with specific expertise on this, you need to contact John Ramsay at St Georges, University of London.


----------



## Transform

My position is that:
Synthesis routes have changed and are producing high purity MDMA without other active compounds. I believe that the changes being observed in the empirical MDMA experience are a result of changes in people's brains as a result of age and MDMA use, not changes in the MDMA molecule (which appears to have been MDMA all along). This argument has been going on for as long as I can remember, with older users always saying that the MDMA when they first started was better than [15 years later], regardless of when they started using.

I don't rule out the idea that there might be some active impurity but there is no evidence for that in analyses and therefore I don't consider it to hold weight. Analysis methods are getting better and better and there is an ever vanishing chance that some highly potent molecule (as it would need to be, when confirmed MDMA content is around 90%).

One thing that I think could be playing a role is the relatively low prevalence of crystal until 2011, and the fast releasing nature of modern pills. Slow-release of a drug into the bloodstream tends to result in a smoother experience with less peaks and troughs. Troughs cause users to want to re-dose prematurely as they feel dissatisfied with their headspace and think they have undershot. Taking more then causes more of the side effects and tolerance increases associated with heavy use and that accelerates onset of the issues seen here.

Have you all seen this paper?






						Error - Cookies Turned Off
					






					onlinelibrary.wiley.com
				




It's not a perfect paper, with some slim sample sizes for some years and personally I would have excised all pills with under 20mg MDMA from the calculation of averages but it does show an interesting change in pills towards being more fast-dissolving as well as stronger.

It's worth noting that these issues can be sidestepped by slightly increasing (10-20% to compensate for lower peak levels), then staggering one's dose (split into 3-4 portions and take over 30-60 minutes).

I don't know what minor excipients are being used in pills but as far as I'm aware, microcrystalline cellulose is really the big one for the main excipient.


----------



## Neopunk

Idk if this was already mentioned, but the theory of varying isomers due to different synthesis routes is bullshit. Both safrole and the chemical used nowadays aren't precursors to MDMA, but to methylenedioxypenylacetone, aka. MDP2P. In both cases the synthesized MDP2P has to be distilled and is therefore the same precursor. Then it's always the same reaction: reductive amination. This can be done in multiple ways, but no matter which one you choose, the product is always an exact 50/50 racemic mixture.


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## vecktor

Transform said:


> I don't know what minor excipients are being used in pills but as far as I'm aware, microcrystalline cellulose is really the big one for the main excipient.





Transform said:


> My position is that:
> Synthesis routes have changed and are producing high purity MDMA without other active compounds. I believe that the changes being observed in the empirical MDMA experience are a result of changes in people's brains as a result of age and MDMA use, not changes in the MDMA molecule (which appears to have been MDMA all along). This argument has been going on for as long as I can remember, with older users always saying that the MDMA when they first started was better than [15 years later], regardless of when they started using.
> 
> I don't rule out the idea that there might be some active impurity but there is no evidence for that in analyses and therefore I don't consider it to hold weight. Analysis methods are getting better and better and there is an ever vanishing chance that some highly potent molecule (as it would need to be, when confirmed MDMA content is around 90%).
> 
> One thing that I think could be playing a role is the relatively low prevalence of crystal until 2011, and the fast releasing nature of modern pills. Slow-release of a drug into the bloodstream tends to result in a smoother experience with less peaks and troughs. Troughs cause users to want to re-dose prematurely as they feel dissatisfied with their headspace and think they have undershot. Taking more then causes more of the side effects and tolerance increases associated with heavy use and that accelerates onset of the issues seen here.
> 
> Have you all seen this paper?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Error - Cookies Turned Off
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> onlinelibrary.wiley.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a perfect paper, with some slim sample sizes for some years and personally I would have excised all pills with under 20mg MDMA from the calculation of averages but it does show an interesting change in pills towards being more fast-dissolving as well as stronger.
> 
> It's worth noting that these issues can be sidestepped by slightly increasing (10-20% to compensate for lower peak levels), then staggering one's dose (split into 3-4 portions and take over 30-60 minutes).
> 
> I don't know what minor excipients are being used in pills but as far as I'm aware, microcrystalline cellulose is really the big one for the main excipient.



The paper is interesting but I don't buy the dissolution data at all, the classification into fast, intermediate and slow is classic post hoc data mining, if you look at the magnitude of the variance it makes drawing any conclusion meaningless and the authors know it.

Classically MDMA.HCl 100-120mg  was dissolved in water and drunk, so that is about as immediate release as possible and hit in 40 minutes, followed sometimes by 40-50mg at the 1.5 to 2hr point, but the supplement extended duration not level of intoxication.

Bombing ground crystal is the same, larger crystals will be slightly slower to dissolve, but overall we should see more pronounced effects relative to pressed pils, higher peak blood levels higher peak brain levels for a shorter time for the same dose. But the doses of crystal are way higher than expected, so the crystal is not pure and it is being cut with something that is very common and doesn't show up on LCMS or GCMS.

The form of pills changed radically about a decade ago with unusual shaped and highly detailed pills appearing frequently, these have a fine structure and detail. These need a strong binding excipient of some sort, the bulking exipient can be anything, lactose mannitol cellulose calcium sulfate or whatever but the formulation needs something to hold the bulking excipient and the active together, strong enough to get it to release from the tooling without losing the detail, the current fancy pills are not coated with a release agent either unless someone is de-dusting them. Mostly the current euro pills seem to be pressed from 25 to 50% MDMA.HCl and the rest is bulking agent colouring and binder. There is clearly a trick to these clever presses, I don't know anybody involved in clandestine pill pressing with the knowlege to answer that. There are some issues with the current pills and it isn't being addressed, pills with 200mg plus doses of MDMA HCl equivalent are just excessive so why is it being done?

Maybe the classic ecstasy experience of old is not a pure MDMA experience. I cannot say for certain, but I can say, sample size of one, that known dose pure MDMA is not the experience people refer to as good energetic ecstasy of rave lore. Nick Saunders said almost 25 years ago that MDMA itself wasn't ecstasy, I tend to agree.

I am sure that rate of dissolution and availability really does matter not just to the intensity of the experience but the quality of the experience. This is because the two enantiomers are excreted at different speeds and have different plasma half lives. R MDMA is a very different drug to S MDMA,  so starting with racemic 50 50 mixture rapid absorbtion will give an equal S enantiomer and R enantiomer ratio but only for a short time, The S enantiomer levels will fall off quickly and give R enantiomer effects for a longer time. Slower absorbtion will give a different effect because the delayed absorbed material will increase the S enantiomer to R enantiomer ratio for a longer time but never to the initial ratio at time zero, this kind of fits with supplementing at 1hr 30 with half the original dose, this will increase the S to R ratio in favor of S which extends the duration a couple of hours but not really the intensity at the cost of more annoying side effects.
The ultimate MDMA experience might be a mixture of 42.42 % R and 57.58 % S

I doubt anybody here will have an answer but microcrystalline cellulose is chiral and insoluble in water, does microcellulose absorb one enantiomer of MDMA in solution more readily than the other?

I think there may be something to this. but the answer is not in this thread so far
So far the more I look the more questions appear and it doesn't fall together nicely


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

You can all discuss chemistry until you're blue in the face afaic. The general consensus of opinion is that a lot of the MDMA available today does not give the same subjective experience as it once did. However, there are exceptions; and it's these exceptions that blow the whole tolerance, rose tinted specs, set and setting argument out of the water. We all know when we get good shit, the fact of the matter is that the good shit seems to be increasingly rare for many of us.


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## indigoaura

@vecktor Thank you for the suggestion to contact John Ramsey. I absolutely will. I'm going to look for contact info and will reach out to him. Maybe he can shed some additional light on what we are noticing.

You mentioned having a theory on what the crystal is cut with, and how it will not show up with GCMS analysis. If you are willing to PM me, please do so. _Could I clean the crystal of this additive by using acetone or another washing method?_

@Transform F.U.B.A.R. just said it, but I am going to say it again here for emphasis. Your counterarguments are simply incorrect. Everyone keeps wanting to bring up nostalgia and setting, but those explanations DO NOT explain this situation.

*Our hypothesis:* *Something is not right with SOME of today's MDMA.

Your counterargument: It is just nostalgia or tolerance.*
This counterargument is invalid because NEW USERS are experiencing the same subpar effects, and because old users can still experience "magic" with different batches of MDMA. @Chonciceptor demonstrated this with his anecdote of his wife's reaction to two different supplies of MDMA (she was a brand new user). Her experience matched his observations as an experienced user.

*Your counterargument: Set and setting.*
This counterargument is invalid because experiments have been performed in many settings, and because the same setting will product great effects with a different batch of MDMA. @Hilopsilo demonstrated this beautifully with his story of the same set of people trying two different batches of MDMA at a festival with everyone reporting the same subpar effects from one batch and magic effects from another batch and yet BOTH batches showed MDMA as the lab result.

*Your Counterargument: Old pills had speed in them.*
I cannot speak for everyone, but in my case specifically this is false. I sent my pills in to a lab for GCMS analysis and they tested as MDMA. So, either those old pills had some magic undetectable ingredient/issue/additive or the new pills do. But, either way, GCMS says MDMA about two completely different effect profiles.



> You can all discuss chemistry until you're blue in the face afaic. The general consensus of opinion is that a lot of the MDMA available today does not give the same subjective experience as it once did. However, there are exceptions; and it's these exceptions that blow the whole tolerance, rose tinted specs, set and setting argument out of the water. We all know when we get good shit, the fact of the matter is that the good shit seems to be increasingly rare for many of us.



? 

I think that discussing additives, binding agents, dissolving rate etc. is all relevant. Maybe one of these issues is what is at play. Interesting to think that an additive could be absorbing an enantiomer @vecktor. That certainly complicates the whole conversation and is interesting to consider.

I think this topic is not going to be believed by a lot of people until they have experienced it


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## indigoaura

Thank you again for bringing John Ramsey into this conversation. Researching him allowed me to find TICTAC. I think they may be precisely the organization we need. They specialize in the study of newly emerging psychoactive substances that are not yet identifiable by traditional harm-reduction testing. I have already emailed them and I really hope they reply. At the very least, I hope they will agree to accept our samples for testing.

If we could have a central location to all send our samples to (a location that performs a variety of ADVANCED tests including GCMS AND Raman), that would be a huge step forward for this conversation. We can talk in all kinds of circles but what we need is better and more data.







						TICTAC Communications Ltd |Pill identification | Pill ID | Tablet identification | London
					

TICTAC offers a number of specialist drug identification and drug analysis products and services.  Please click below for information on your area interest. TICTAC visual drug identification and information system  TICTAC drug analysis  TICTAC drug images    TICTAC spectral libraries...



					www.tictac.org.uk


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> @vecktor Thank you for the suggestion to contact John Ramsey. I absolutely will. I'm going to look for contact info and will reach out to him. Maybe he can shed some additional light on what we are noticing.
> 
> You mentioned having a theory on what the crystal is cut with, and how it will not show up with GCMS analysis. If you are willing to PM me, please do so. _Could I clean the crystal of this additive by using acetone or another washing method?_
> 
> @Transform F.U.B.A.R. just said it, but I am going to say it again here for emphasis. Your counterarguments are simply incorrect. Everyone keeps wanting to bring up nostalgia and setting, but those explanations DO NOT explain this situation.
> 
> *Our hypothesis:* *Something is not right with SOME of today's MDMA.
> 
> Your counterargument: It is just nostalgia or tolerance.*
> This counterargument is invalid because NEW USERS are experiencing the same subpar effects, and because old users can still experience "magic" with different batches of MDMA. @Chonciceptor demonstrated this with his anecdote of his wife's reaction to two different supplies of MDMA (she was a brand new user). Her experience matched his observations as an experienced user.
> 
> *Your counterargument: Set and setting.*
> This counterargument is invalid because experiments have been performed in many settings, and because the same setting will product great effects with a different batch of MDMA. @Hilopsilo demonstrated this beautifully with his story of the same set of people trying two different batches of MDMA at a festival with everyone reporting the same subpar effects from one batch and magic effects from another batch and yet BOTH batches showed MDMA as the lab result.
> 
> *Your Counterargument: Old pills had speed in them.*
> I cannot speak for everyone, but in my case specifically this is false. I sent my pills in to a lab for GCMS analysis and they tested as MDMA. So, either those old pills had some magic undetectable ingredient/issue/additive or the new pills do. But, either way, GCMS says MDMA about two completely different effect profiles.
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> I think that discussing additives, binding agents, dissolving rate etc. is all relevant. Maybe one of these issues is what is at play. Interesting to think that an additive could be absorbing an enantiomer @vecktor. That certainly complicates the whole conversation and is interesting to consider.
> 
> I think this topic is not going to be believed by a lot of people until they have experienced it



Indigo nails all points here. To clarify and strengthen her point here. I myself have never abused mdma........ EVER. Prior to ever taking it i spent months researching harm reduction and really getting a true understanding of what this was and how to be safe with it. After that, i always spaced my rolls according to the *1 month minimum, 3 months optimum* wait times between doses. Nowadays, i dont roll for 6+ months at a time, even going over a year at times. My last true roll that felt like the mdma we are all seeking here, was actually in 2015. This means that for the 4 years all the tested and pure mdma/pills ive gotten, hasnt quite launched you into that headspace. Just going somewhere and stops. Various sources, various batches, all tested with a test kit with amazing reviews.

Last time i took something was sept last year, ill be dropping some stuff in the coming month(s) potentially. This gives me roughly an 8+ month wait time between my last roll. That is PLENTY of time away from this drug to have it work without a glaring variable. 

Anyone wanna still say its not the mdma? I eat well, im very healthy, i love harm reduction.

I joined this site in 2011, and have been providing true harm reduction tips since that time while learning myself. As someone who has NEVER abused mdma and treated it with the utmost respect, i highly doubt tolerance/set&setting/ or speed has anything to do with it. My gear has always been tested as well, and its mdma only 99% of the time. One time was a caffeine mdma combo and that was nice.


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## opiatekrzy

It makes sense that perhaps the variation of different precursors has slightly altered/different feels when taken.  I dont know, I'm not an expert but isnt one precursor natural sassafras root bark, and another one that is used is safrole? I understand safrole is what is in sassafras, but maybe they use a safrole analogue or a synthetic of some sort to synthesize MDMA.  Maybe that can be responsible for why some of us think it has adifferent feel then MDMA that was synthesized from straight sass, or some other precursor I have not mentioned.  I read in a book that you can synthesize MMDA? from nutmeg, and then can synthesize the MMDA into MDMA. I dont know this theory just crossed my mind if that makes any sense.


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## lalalaa

Can't remember if this has been discussed about on the thread but has anyone else noticed that the MehDMA tastes often quite blend?

Back in the day even a tiny bit tasted revolting and allmost made me throw up every time when I chewed a pill or took some crystal.
The taste is similar nowadays but nowhere near as intense as it used to be.

Last decent MDMA ecperience for me was back in 2014.
Had yellow 1UP mushroom cutout which had the horrible taste.
After that everything has been pretty much a disappointment.

I guess bulking agent could explain the lack of taste but the lack of euphoria and feeling sick for a few days after? 

Anyway good thread guys and thanks for the effort to solve the mystery!


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## epic11

lalalaa said:


> Can't remember if this has been discussed about on the thread but has anyone else noticed that the MehDMA tastes often quite blend?
> 
> Back in the day even a tiny bit tasted revolting and allmost made me throw up every time when I chewed a pill or took some crystal.
> The taste is similar nowadays but nowhere near as intense as it used to be.
> 
> Last decent MDMA ecperience for me was back in 2014.
> Had yellow 1UP mushroom cutout which had the horrible taste.
> After that everything has been pretty much a disappointment.
> 
> I guess bulking agent could explain the lack of taste but the lack of euphoria and feeling sick for a few days after?
> 
> Anyway good thread guys and thanks for the effort to solve the mystery!



Thanks for popping in! As you can see, we have been throwing around questions about this for some time now. I completely agree with your notes here. Todays pure mdma lacks taste and smell. You are right that its still there, but highly diminished from previous pills or powders. I used to open a bag and get smacked in the face with a licorice smell. Now you can barely smell it at all, even with nose in bag!!


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## epic11

Le Junk said:


> Trust me, they're completely different.  My proof is simply these two samples I have right here in front of me.  I have my white crystalline powder and red Supreme tabs.  The red Supremes were ecstasydata lab tested as pure MDMA and were sent in by, how do I say this, someone that I know.  I myself have done both and can tell you that to even try and compare the two would be insulting to the powder.  Plain and simple, the red Supremes are unenjoyable and the white powder is nothing short of heavenly.
> 
> Example # 2.  My neighbor, who's never done ecstasy in her life, was talked into doing the red Supremes by me when I was out of the powder.  Afterwards, she said she would never do ecstasy again.  She said it was nothing like I described it and it showed.  She wasn't loved up, she was very introverted, she spent most of the night either puking or laying on the sofa.  The next day she said she felt cracked out.
> 
> After a couple months, I was able to talk her into trying the powder with me.  We were in the same exact setting as the time before.  My place.  This time she was in love, she was telling me things she'd never told anyone before, she couldn't stop rubbing on me, she must have told me she loved me 50 times, she said if the whole world was on this there would be no wars, we made love all night and the next day we went out to breakfast and came back home and continued making love.
> 
> They are not the same.  I've been doing ecstasy since 1985 and can tell you with 1000% accuracy, they are not the same by a longshot.  People keep talking about setting etc.  That's the bullshit.  If it's the real thing, it honestly doesn't matter where you are.
> 
> Le Junk
> 
> P.S. The difference is in the isomers.



Going back to page 1 to re-read some of this thread. I observe the same as this post here, and can even give a report on a "c|p" pill ive done as well. I tried a Green starbucks CP (checkpoint i believe?) pill produced "example 2" type feelings from this post.


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## Swim15

vecktor said:


> This thread is extraordinary for almost zero signal to noise ratio and it reminds me of the circular LSD purity arguments.
> so I'll start with what I know.
> 
> 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine 3,4-MDMA and 2,3-MDMA are distinguishable by GC-MS, the GC bit does the separating. A DB5 or HP5 MS column which is pretty standard separates the two with the 2,3 isomer eluting first. The EI spectra of the fragments is not identical either.
> https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf;sequence=1 page 56
> This is my experience also with ortho para isomers. Labs identify by retention time AND spectra.
> 
> 2,3 MDMA would require a 2,3-methylenedioxy precursor. These are commercially available but more expensive than the 3,4-methylenedioxy compounds, if 2,3 methylenedioxy MDMA was around then it is substitution by the chinese manufacturers of the precursors but most of the manufacturers also make the cheaper 3,4 methylenedioxy compounds, so it is very unlikely that 2,3 methylenedioxy is widespread.
> 
> Since 2009 2010 most PMK has been made from PMK glycidate and is plain old PMK, just the same as that made from safrole.  PMK itself smells similar to but lighter than safrole. People associate the safrole smell with good MDMA experiences and smell is great at evoking memories (of good pills) and contributing to set and setting. If someone was to spray lavender scent and then electrocute you eventually you would subconsciously associate lavender and being shocked, to the point where if you smelled lavender you would become stressed.
> 
> PMK glycidate which is itself made from piperonal will disappear in the next few years as the international restrictions on it bite. It will be inevitably replaced by something else (my guess would be one of the really obvious 4 carbon pre precursors) over time but there are clearly large stocks of PMK glycidate in producer areas already. There is not a one step reaction from pmk glycidate to MDMA but there are ways to do it in one pot, how common this is who knows, the current  forensic impurity profile fits with reductive amination of PMK with the PMK being isolated.  There is another theoretical route to MDMA from PMK glycidate which does not need conversion to PMK, there is no evidence in the forensic literature this route is being used.
> PMK glycidate is chiral but the commercial product is a racemic mixture and in any case the PMK it makes is not chiral.
> 
> MDMA made by reductive amination of PMK with nitromethane(as an in situ methylamine source) or methylamine is racemic. MDMA made by reduction with a chiral amine is chiral, chiral amines like chiral N-alphadimethylbenzylamine would give chiral N-alphamethylbenzyl MDMA which on deprotection would give chiral MDMA. Nobody is going to do this as chiral alphamethylbenzylamine is expensive and the chiral precusor is used up. There are ways to make chiral amines using chiral catalysts but this is way out of the league of clandestine MDMA cooks.
> 
> Significant mercury in MDMA is pretty much a myth
> Raman spectroscopy cannot detect parts per million concentration of mercury whether it is methyl mercury halide or dimethyl mercury.
> ICP-MS or ICP-OES can detect down to parts per trillion of mercury but  I am not aware whether anybody has done this on clandestine MDMA.
> Mercury in the form of mercury salts are used to amalgamate aluminium in the reductive amination of PMK this is generally a small scale route. the mercury ends up absorbed onto the aluminium and in the aluminium oxide hydroxide residues and it is in the form of elemental mercury, it is not converted into methyl mercury or dimethyl mercury. Amalgamated zinc has been used occasionally in pharmaceutical manufacture and the levels of mercury carried into the product are negligible.
> the grey and brown colouration of impure MDMA means nothing it could be metal oxides, carbon or tar.
> There is not commonly cyanide in cocaine either.
> 
> t-BOC MDMA and MDPH
> There is no conceivable chemistry that can generate MDPH (methylenedioxyphentermine) from BOC MDMA, even the most inept clandestine operator can heat BOC MDMA with hydrochloric acid.
> t-BOC MDMA itself is unlikely because it would need PMK or isosafrole to make it.
> If there is MDPH methylenedioxyphentermine in circulation it is deliberate but I am highly skeptical quality of the source of the supposed data.
> 
> Things that are interesting but unexplained significance.
> 
> Pills aren't what they used to be.
> in mid to late 2000s the Brabant Dutch manufacturers came up with a pill binder that is really good at binding pills making rock hard lumps but is not as good at allowing the pills to dissolve and disperse. I think it is polyvinylpyrrolidone co-polymer and replaced the earlier gum binders. This seems to be everywhere now. It has a couple of problems, it can bind stuff in solution further reducing availability and it also causes allergies in some people.
> 
> Crystals
> There also appears to be some kind of bulking agent that can be crystallized with MDMA to make nice crystals which look pretty but are not pure MDMA.HCl  I have a good idea what it is but this shouldn't be public information.
> 
> Nostalgia will continue to be a big thing in the future and you can't swim in the same river twice meaning that people change much more than the drug does and the river flows on.
> MDMA in general now back to being as good as it ever has been, MDMA contents of pills are pretty high up to 100mg which is much higher than the 90s the precursors are plentiful and have been since 2010, perhaps the drugs haven't changed, the users have and the world we live in has.
> 
> Pharmaceutical (GMP) MDMA as MAPS have was originally made by the Nichols group, by the reductive amination of PMK just like all the clandestine processes. The only real difference is they distilled the MDMA in the final step it is not complicated.



This was an awesome post, good read.

I have the knowledge to do MDMA synthesis but not comfortable with my environment currently but will do so eventually and hope to be able to identify the route to an optimal product.


----------



## Swim15

Not sure if this applies to others here but does anyone have a place that they have acquired “excellent” MDMA by old school standards? Preferably on the DN. If so and someone could pass me the vendor info, I have access to a plethora of lab equipment I could use to run GC, IR/NMR spectra, and all that stuff. Would be interested to compare to some of the stuff that I have and considered to be untouchable in terms of quality.


----------



## KB215

Every thing I’ve gotten in the past 10 years has been bs compared to the 98 99 2000 were my favorite with this ..everything I’ve had since has been speedy bs little uphoria compared to what I got in the 00’s


----------



## indigoaura

Swim15, wish I could help you, but I have not found such a vendor. I would love to have that info as well, for obvious reasons. LOL. 

Have you run tests on the product you have? What do your tests show for subpar product?

I am disappointed I have not heard back from TICTAC yet. I was hoping they would agree to take my samples for advanced analysis.


----------



## Swim15

I actually haven’t tested any product as I haven’t had a reason to lately.

The first few times I rolled (starting 5-6 years ago) the MDMA was sub par which I didn’t know at that point.

Since then, a couple years ago, I acquired some from a vendor who is no longer around and it absolutely blew me and everyone who tried it away so I kept a personal stash that will last me another 5-10 years at the rate I use it. I have reagent tested it however and everything looked perfect.

My access to lab equipment didn’t happen until about a year ago. I haven’t used or needed any MDMA other than what I have, so I never took the time to bother with it since it is a risk, albeit small, and wasn’t worth it to me for something I was already extremely happy with.

If I could get my hands on some MDMA that is “the good ol stuff” as verified by old timers, however, I’d definitely be willing to run analysis on it and compare it to the typical pills that float around commonly now to see if it revealed any chemical structure differences. Definitely sounds like a worthwhile project.


----------



## Glubrahnum

vecktor said:


> Raman spectroscopy cannot detect parts per million concentration of mercury whether it is methyl mercury halide or dimethyl mercury.


Yes, RS cannot detect mercury since it is too close to the laser line, but it can detect many lighter functional groups attached to it.
Where did you see the claim, that mercury was detected by Raman Spectrosopy alone ?


----------



## supernova23

Well that’s me read this whole massive thread over a week or so, thoroughly entertaining at times and food for thought. I will keep tabs on this one as I have a feeling it will run for a while yet. I’ve recently sourced some crystal - straight to black on Marquis - and should have the opportunity to sample it soon, which will be my first drop for 12 months. With this thread in mind I’ll take some notes and report back. May I take the opportunity to say it’s wonderful to come across a collective so dedicated to getting muntered (british technical term) in the best possible fashion, keep up the good work ?


----------



## AutoTripper

@supernova23 hello and a warm welcome (not that I have earned enough scout points to be able to welcome new members yet, being a fresh pup myself.) 

Yes indeed, a very interesting thread and topic, which is what caught my attention and drew me in here. I echo your feelings that this enquiry may be very long running.
Who knows if we won't still be debating in conjecure in years to come, still no closer apparently to any sort of conclusion or explanation.

Hopefully not though, and that this thread in particular, and the efforts of the dedicated members here not least of all the OP, @Le Junk , will stir enough interest to create a snowball effrct and a deeper, collective global enquiry and think tank.

I hope anyhow.
But that isn't what I came here to say. I understand I can't post links to the IG page where matey is pimping his 97% pure S isomer MDMA, but I took a screenshot of his latest post.




Now if he's legit, would that not have to be hands down the purest looking product you have seen for a long time? Call me gullible but I reckon there is a good chance he is for real. 
I ain't ordering 9 tins though no way, even if I could afford it.


----------



## indigoaura

Received a reply from TICTAC. I am encouraged that they are willing to look into a way to set this up. Fingers crossed!



> Sorry for the delay in replying.
> 
> The GC-MS work is interesting as would really expect the opposite for GC-MS and Raman. With no chromatography, Raman typically only detects the most prominent substance present. And Raman is not great with tablets. It varies by which Raman is used, but for ecstasy tablets, they typically do not detect MDMA (or any other AI in ecstasy tablets) well until it is above 20% of the tablet's overall mass. And for these reasons, it is improbable that Raman would detect impurities (e.g. the MDPH) unless of course, rather than an impurity, the MDPH was the main AI. I can understand that GC-MS might not detect MDPH if it is not in the library that has been searched against, but there would still be a peak, just an unknown one. We are aware that GC-MS struggles with some MDMA related substances such as ephedrine.
> 
> We have access to instruments capable of distinguishing isomers and I do have some interest in looking at this. A potential obstacle is samples. We have access to our own samples but have not seen anything in recent tablets that is likely to cause the symptoms described below. A large number of these were recently analysed on LC-MS/MS and LD TQD MS which, should have detected isomers were they present. The tablets used in this were from the time period 2001 to 2018. Is the phenomena below something that has only been seen after 2018?
> 
> I think we would need to obtain samples where the different effects have been experience. And that could be a problem. Licenced labs are under obligation to ensure they receive controlled substances from either other licenced bodies or those exempted. There may be a way around this but I would need to check with the Home office. Were samples to be provided to us for this work, would they be submitted by individuals? For suitable research, one tablet here and one there does not really work as you don’t know if it is a one off. If you can advise if samples can be provided and how/from whom, I can check if there is a legal way to receive them.



I replied and indicated that it would be ideal if users could submit samples via mail, due to the fact that the participants in this conversation are all over the world. I will post and see what they say in reply.


----------



## Biscuit

Following on from suggestions that MDMA pills of yesteryear were MDMA combos, this is simply not the case. They certainly existed but they were not the norm.

Many years ago now, in 2003, I posted a whole list of quantitative lab results for Australian pills between 2000 and 2003. I obviously got nervous later and completely changed the first post, which is a shame as I removed the specific results for well known and frankly awesome pills, something I wouldn’t care about revealing now.

As stated, the most common combo was MDMA and caffeine, which the famed X scores of 2001 to 2004 or so (a whole series of Beautifully but modesty pressed round coloured pills with a off Centred double score (like a thin X) that only ever had 110 to 130mg of MDMA in them (this is without the HCl counted) and caffeine)) always seemed to have. Whilst a lot of pills were fake, once mdma was in there, it was in there on its own 3/4 of the time.






						Some quantitative results
					

Have I made a blunder or what.  Major miscommunication has caused me to have to delete a few things; what was authorised was a more general summary - and that is certainly fair enough.  I apologise prefusely for this gaffe; i was going to ask for this thread to be deleted but that would be...




					www.bluelight.org
				




And if there was ever any doubt as to what constituted a high doSe pill to seasoned BLers back in 2004, then check this out..





						MDMA pill with massive quantity of MDMA - for real?
					

In more dangerous drug news, Belgium officials issued an alert last week about a new batch of ecstasy tablets containing massive amounts of MDMA. According to the Belgian Scientific Public Health Institute, a batch of round pink pills stamped with Mercedes logos are in circulation which contain...




					www.bluelight.org
				



The notion of any pill having 300mg, which nowadays is not uncommon, was beyond the comprehension of any of us back then.


----------



## AutoTripper

Biscuit said:


> The notion of any pill having 300mg, which nowadays is not uncommon, was beyond the comprehension of any of us back then.


When I was introduced to ecstasy in 1996, my much older friends who were sister and boyfriend of my friend, had been raving since earlier 90's.

And this guy Paul used to go on about those Double Doves, with a dove print on each side.
He swore they were totally crazy potency wise. Best of the best, and I specifically remember him emphasizing how half a Double Dove, was noticeably stronger and better than a single original classic strong White Dove.

He knew his drugs well and never talked shit. They described also how the come up was different like quicker 10 to 15 minutes and it would be like a split second going from being completely straight to Rolling really hard, I think they said they experienced this on halves as well, which is how they typically used to take them but I believe Paul did take a whole one on at least one occasion.

Anyway, to me 120-130 mg is a good mean estimate for a typical, strong, clean early-mid 90's White Dove.  Still around in 96/7 of course along with Dolphins, Elephants etc but far less common as the scene became much more heavily adulterated for a few years in the UK.

I have had a burning curiosity over the years to know what the dosage was of those legendary Double Doves.

If Paul & Co are to be trusted and believed, and more importantly if my logic is correct then those double dogs must have been between 250 and 300 mg of the finest MDMA.


Edit- I just remembered another passionate accounts from a much older lady Suzie, in 2004 who was an old skool hippie acid head. 

She was telling me about the exact same double doves and how she used to take a half and roll incredibly hard for 6 hours straight and that was all she would need and nothing had ever come close to that MDMA wise since.

She talked about getting the same feeling from a modern pill at the time, but only for about an hour before it dropped off. I think it was a Mitsubishi she was referring to with that particular comparison.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> @supernova23 hello and a warm welcome (not that I have earned enough scout points to be able to welcome new members yet, being a fresh pup myself.)
> 
> Yes indeed, a very interesting thread and topic, which is what caught my attention and drew me in here. I echo your feelings that this enquiry may be very long running.
> Who knows if we won't still be debating in conjecure in years to come, still no closer apparently to any sort of conclusion or explanation.
> 
> Hopefully not though, and that this thread in particular, and the efforts of the dedicated members here not least of all the OP, @Le Junk , will stir enough interest to create a snowball effrct and a deeper, collective global enquiry and think tank.
> 
> I hope anyhow.
> But that isn't what I came here to say. I understand I can't post links to the IG page where matey is pimping his 97% pure S isomer MDMA, but I took a screenshot of his latest post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now if he's legit, would that not have to be hands down the purest looking product you have seen for a long time? Call me gullible but I reckon there is a good chance he is for real.
> I ain't ordering 9 tins though no way, even if I could afford it.



surely it looks beautiful, but honestly, we dont know what that substance is. Thats all pure-speculation.


----------



## GearoftheYear

I do think it's synth related, but tolerance plays an effect too. 

The binder comments are interesting, I do really dislike pills nowadays due to the binder, even if the crystal was worse I would prefer to just know the exact dose.


----------



## AutoTripper

GearoftheYear said:


> Haven't had a chance to read all the recent previous posts if this is off-topic


Not off topic mate, bang on and dead poignant. Thanks for sharing your experience with such depth and clarity for us. All extremely interesting. 

Firstly you actually made me feel a bit better hearing of your excessive binging yourself, because I have been feeling like one of the odd few in that sense,  across the MDMA internet board where nowadays, you woukd think our past abuse levels would warrant the lethal injection lol for real, especially on reddit where anybody who stepped outside of the tight recommendations has rotten Tomatoes and insults hurled at them from every direction.  

I am sure that everything you have described will be directly related to by many others who have posted in this thread, and comes as no surprise. I was getting my hopes up for my 2 modern Dutch MDMA Bowser pills which I plan to try for the first time in 14 years.

But from what you describe maybe better not to get too excited I think although I'm keeping my mind completely open not expecting anything. Im hoping for some level of therapeutic benefit and healing primarily, Im not one bit chasing an amazing experience or trying to rekindle an old flame.

I will simply take what comes. If any aspect of the experience is enjoyable I will be thankful for that. But shucks, I am a but less excited after reading your account.

And it's interesting because my mate who I got these 2 Dutch pills from, a long-term good friend- he never took MDMA back when I did. He only started 3 years ago, but he has only ever raved to me about how incredible MDMA is every time.
He only gets standard clean ~200 mg Dutch pills, like my Bowsers.

Our mutual friend, older than me, started with original 90's e's before me- he also strongly rates these modern Dutch pills and is his mind are right up there with the OG's.

Anyway, Im actually far more intrigued how I will find my first experience since 2005, in relation to this exact topic. It's going to be interesting for sure. Thanks again man for your story, I hope I get to catch more fascinating little snippets of your days gone past.


----------



## indigoaura

@Swim15 I was going to say this before, but maybe you already have the good stuff. I would definitely test what you have so you know what it is that gives you the experience you prefer. 

@GearoftheYear I would be more willing to write my experience off as tolerance, if it was not shared by so many people in such specific ways. It can't really be tolerance when new users are reporting the same observations. Also, unlike many, I never overdid it much. I stuck to a once per month guideline and generally had 3 or fewer pills. Obviously, there were a few exceptions to that, but I was not someone who threw back dozens of pills in a night.


----------



## Swim15

Yeah not a bad point. My lab equipment access is all school/research related so I’ll most likely wait for testing next semester just to make it easy and sinxe isn’t urgent for what I have seeing as I won’t be running out anytime soon.

Just from hearing experiences I doubt that what I have is what the old timers would call ‘the good stuff’ but easily hands down the best thing I’ve ever come into contact with as well as the friends I have that have tried it.

Also have some typical and good-testing Teslas for a while that I haven’t touched. Need to use those at some point for comparison but haven’t wanted to use anything other than my personal stash given the experiences I’ve had with it.



On the note that got brought up earlier, I definitely do think that binders/fillers alter the experience somewhat as well as gel capsules. Rolled twice within the past 8 months - once with crystal inside a capsule and once with the same batch emptying the crystal into my mouth with no capsule consumed and had very different experiences. Faster, harder comeup and longer duration without the capsule than with the capsule on the same dose.

There are a lot of variables that play into the experiment but at this point I log all of my rolls, supplements, time taken, etc just to find the best experience and commonalities. Point being I’ve wokred over the years to limit as many variables as possible, food consumption included on roll day.


----------



## Transform

TICTAC said:


> A large number of these were recently analysed on LC-MS/MS and LD TQD MS which, should have detected isomers were they present. The tablets used in this were from the time period 2001 to 2018.



Yet another lab who has done real analysis and found no chemical explanation for this. This is why I insist that whatever variation is being seen is in humans.


----------



## Swim15

I haven’t read this entire thread but has anyone discussed the possibility that it’s simply a different ratio of R/S isomers being produced in the MDMA today? Not sure how drastically that would truly alter the experience potentially


----------



## epic11

Swim15 said:


> I haven’t read this entire thread but has anyone discussed the possibility that it’s simply a different ratio of R/S isomers being produced in the MDMA today? Not sure how drastically that would truly alter the experience potentially



Its been brought up multiple times. Not sure where we are standing on it currently however.


----------



## epic11

@AutoTripper https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=38315 Here is a user experience with your bowsers to give you an idea.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> @AutoTripper https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=38315 Here is a user experience with your bowsers to give you an idea.


Thanks man really appreciate you thinking of that for me and digging it out.
I didnt see that recent report yet but it matches identically the others I have seen.

That image as well- that is 100% the batch I have. Identical, except their sample hasnt crumbled at all yet like mine have a little.

I was fully confident it had between 200 and 230 ish mg, my plan may still be to take half then the other within 90 minutes if needed, or another 1/4 possibly..

Im 55kg buy should be 67kg minium, going by my frame, organs, bloodstream etc, and of course knowng my body and my ideL weight . So Im not convinced about calculating my dose based on my current weight.

I dont really want to take less than a half. So like 110 mg give or take a few. 

From all I have taken in from my recent (and admittedly only ever real) MDMA research, in particular social trends/beliefs/(myths?), I feel most people would tell me 110mg is too high for me after 14 years.

But as the 60's hippie slogan goes- "an underdose is worse than an overdose". I mean, not an actual OD, but I would rather slightly overshoot and have a marginally more intense experience than an underwhelming or just about borderline one.

No purpose otherwise Right?

Anyway- these browsers look absolutely perfect on paper for me to assess. If these seemingly pure, clean, strong, high dose modern Dutch pills fail to provide a magical experience or effect anywhere remeniscent of my past ones, it will reveal a ton to me personally Im sure. 

I wont consider loss of magic, burnout, boredom by familiarity etc if the experience is  mundane and effects lacking in quality. I loved and fully enjoyed MDMA right up until I stopped 14 years ago.  I know for certain I could enjoy the substance as much as ever in the right set and setting, past abuse never took that away from me.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Thanks man really appreciate you thinking of that for me and digging it out.
> I didnt see that recent report yet but it matches identically the others I have seen.
> 
> From all I have taken in from my recent (and admittedly only ever real) MDMA research, in particular social trends/beliefs/(myths?), I feel most people would tell me 110mg is too high for me after 14 years.
> 
> But as the 60's hippie slogan goes- "an underdose is worse than an overdose". I mean, not an actual OD, but I would rather slightly overshoot and have a marginally more intense experience than an underwhelming or just about borderline one.
> 
> No purpose otherwise Right?
> 
> Anyway- these browsers look absolutely perfect on paper for me to assess. If these seemingly pure, clean, strong, high dose modern Dutch pills fail to provide a magical experience or effect anywhere remeniscent of my past ones, it will reveal a ton to me personally Im sure.
> 
> I wont consider loss of magic, burnout, boredom by familiarity etc if the experience is  mundane and effects lacking in quality. I loved and fully enjoyed MDMA right up until I stopped 14 years ago.  I know for certain I could enjoy the substance as much as ever in the right set and setting, past abuse never took that away from me.



If your hearts good, i dont think 110mg would be much of an issue, you know yourself better than we do. So be realistic with yourself please for safety, would hate a complication.

I tend to agree with the underdose is worse than overdose situation when it comes to md. It may not be the best term, but i get what you mean. With mdma, you wanna make sure you get to the right threshold dose without taking WAY TOO MUCH. So yea, no purpose in not trying to hit the level you seek.

Id say just half it, wait for the come up feeling and gauge its strength. Coming on real hard? Wait a sec and see. Coming on too soft? Bite a little more as soon as you notice. The longer you wait to re-dose mdma the less of a lift itll provide. (try to get any additional mdma in before an hour if you can, or it may not add anything)

Also keep in mind, that users report seems like he popped the whole pill. Note worthy.

Very much looking forward to your report. Stay safe!!! Thanks for helping us to understand this problem.


----------



## indigoaura

Has anyone read this article?









						Playboy: Ecstasy Was Legal in 1984, and It Was Glorious - Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies - MAPS
					

Summary: Playboy outlines the history of MDMA use in contemporary culture before and after its criminalization, interviewing MAPS Founder Rick Doblin, Ph.D., to discuss the history of MDMA as an adjunct to psychotherapy and why he founded MAPS. “With these kinds of results, Doblin hopes his...




					maps.org
				




First of all, it is a great read and worth reading for education/entertainment.

But, it is also particularly relevant to this conversation. Multiple high-profile individuals comment in the article that real MDMA is no longer available. The article even goes so far as to call modern Molly a knockoff, and implies it is basically riding on the heels of the former ecstasy scene.

The article also does a great job of painting a picture of just how powerful ecstasy was. This was not a drug that made people sit on a couch in a stupor for 3 hours. It changed culture, music, and people. It ignited epiphanies and radical re-evaluations of reality.



> People who were uptight and modest would suddenly shed their clothes. There was something freeing about it.





> For the first time in your life there is no fear of anything. That is such a freeing sensation. You aren’t concerned with the details of life on earth. Health, business, relationships—none of it matters. Everything looks beautiful.



The article also points out that, 





> And yet, the DEA reports that only 13 percent of the molly it analyzed in New York between 2009 and 2013 contained traces of actual MDMA.



If anyone can read this and honestly say that what is being circulated today is the same drug as what is being described in this article, then I would be truly surprised. Ecstasy started movements. It changed people. It was a religious experience. I just do not see that happening on a large scale today.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Has anyone read this article?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Playboy: Ecstasy Was Legal in 1984, and It Was Glorious - Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies - MAPS
> 
> 
> Summary: Playboy outlines the history of MDMA use in contemporary culture before and after its criminalization, interviewing MAPS Founder Rick Doblin, Ph.D., to discuss the history of MDMA as an adjunct to psychotherapy and why he founded MAPS. “With these kinds of results, Doblin hopes his...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> maps.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First of all, it is a great read and worth reading for education/entertainment.
> 
> But, it is also particularly relevant to this conversation. Multiple high-profile individuals comment in the article that real MDMA is no longer available. The article even goes so far as to call modern Molly a knockoff, and implies it is basically riding on the heels of the former ecstasy scene.
> 
> The article also does a great job of painting a picture of just how powerful ecstasy was. This was not a drug that made people sit on a couch in a stupor for 3 hours. It changed culture, music, and people. It ignited epiphanies and radical re-evaluations of reality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The article also points out that,
> 
> If anyone can read this and honestly say that what is being circulated today is the same drug as what is being described in this article, then I would be truly surprised. Ecstasy started movements. It changed people. It was a religious experience. I just do not see that happening on a large scale today.


Trust me, its out there. I had rolled just like this article says between those years. Its just not true.

Id say 2015-now is when the meh-dma REALLY started to be seen on a large scale. As im seeing more and more reports of the meh-dma feelings. Theory: The flawed mdma we have now was starting to be mass produced around that time (09-13), but hadnt fully penetrated a majority of the big makers, and therefore the goods were still found more often than not. Flash foward to today the flawed mdma is now the majority in the market, and now we are here asking these questions.


----------



## indigoaura

I would be interested in people posting and stating where they are in a general way, and whether they have access to magic MDMA or not. If they can only find MehDMA, when did the MehDMA first appear? For me, I am in the USA in TX and I have not seen magic MDMA since 2005 or 2006, but I am also not well connected at all and not a part of the EDM scene.

Lots of "old-timers" in this thread reporting that they still have access to magic MDMA, so I know it is out there somewhere.


----------



## psy997

Quick thoughts:

In Texas I first had MehDMA in 2015-16, and from then until mid 2017 had mostly MehDMA experiences the 10-15 times I used. In Colorado, since mid 2017, I've had MDMA three times, twice the fall of 2017, once this past month as reported. All three were MehDMA, and the product looks so similar I'm tempted to say it could be the same stuff, despite the routes taken to procure it being totally different, and there being a decent amount of time between buys. Since 2015 I've had good MDMA 1-3 times in Texas (mostly bad since 2016), once in Idaho, and if I remember correctly, some stuff that was sourced from up north eg. Michigan or Wisconsin.

I have a theory - that I'm not at all attached to - that good MDMA in the US is either coming from Canada, or being synthesized here - as stated earlier in the thread.


----------



## trogere

psy997 said:


> Quick thoughts:
> 
> In Texas I first had MehDMA in 2015-16, and from then until mid 2017 had mostly MehDMA experiences the 10-15 times I used. In Colorado, since mid 2017, I've had MDMA three times, twice the fall of 2017, once this past month as reported. All three were MehDMA, and the product looks so similar I'm tempted to say it could be the same stuff, despite the routes taken to procure it being totally different, and there being a decent amount of time between buys. Since 2015 I've had good MDMA 1-3 times in Texas (mostly bad since 2016), once in Idaho, and if I remember correctly, some stuff that was sourced from up north eg. Michigan or Wisconsin.
> 
> I have a theory - that I'm not at all attached to - that good MDMA in the US is either coming from Canada, or being synthesized here - as stated earlier in the thread.



There is a rumor of a local source of safrole in north-america. From the distillation of a kind of cedar tree or something like that. I don't know up to which point more information on this could be available, or these kinds of discussions allowed here.


----------



## Le Junk

AutoTripper said:


> Thanks man really appreciate you thinking of that for me and digging it out.
> I didnt see that recent report yet but it matches identically the others I have seen.
> 
> That image as well- that is 100% the batch I have. Identical, except their sample hasnt crumbled at all yet like mine have a little.
> 
> I was fully confident it had between 200 and 230 ish mg, my plan may still be to take half then the other within 90 minutes if needed, or another 1/4 possibly..
> 
> Im 55kg buy should be 67kg minium, going by my frame, organs, bloodstream etc, and of course knowng my body and my ideL weight . So Im not convinced about calculating my dose based on my current weight.
> 
> I dont really want to take less than a half. So like 110 mg give or take a few.
> 
> From all I have taken in from my recent (and admittedly only ever real) MDMA research, in particular social trends/beliefs/(myths?), I feel most people would tell me 110mg is too high for me after 14 years.
> 
> But as the 60's hippie slogan goes- "an underdose is worse than an overdose". I mean, not an actual OD, but I would rather slightly overshoot and have a marginally more intense experience than an underwhelming or just about borderline one.
> 
> No purpose otherwise Right?
> 
> Anyway- these browsers look absolutely perfect on paper for me to assess. If these seemingly pure, clean, strong, high dose modern Dutch pills fail to provide a magical experience or effect anywhere remeniscent of my past ones, it will reveal a ton to me personally Im sure.
> 
> I wont consider loss of magic, burnout, boredom by familiarity etc if the experience is  mundane and effects lacking in quality. I loved and fully enjoyed MDMA right up until I stopped 14 years ago.  I know for certain I could enjoy the substance as much as ever in the right set and setting, past abuse never took that away from me.



If you thoroughly enjoyed your experience 14 years ago, you will be thoroughly disappointed with todays MDMA. With regards to humans being the issue or loss of magic or tolerance, keep in mind that there is a physical marker  present with todays crappy MDMA. That is a lack of dilation of the pupils. If you remember correctly from when you rolled 14 years ago, you will remember that your pupils would dilate the entire width of the eyeball leaving only a microscopic sliver of eyecolor around the outer edge.  That does not exist anymore with todays modern MDMA. It’s that simple, if your pupils dont dilate all the way to the outer edge, you are doing bad MDMA. End of story. The comments about how awful modern MDMA is with regards to trip reports coincide with a lack of dilation of pupils. I don’t know why we’re still having this discussion on it possibly being a human problem when there Is a definitive visual marker proving otherwise.


----------



## indigoaura

Hooray! The return of @LeJunk!

I am also a bit at a loss for why people keep bringing up tolerance, as there are many reasons why tolerance is not the issue here.

I would bet that if someone went out and bought a bottle of vodka, but they did not get intoxicated after having 4 shots, they would probably think something was wrong with the vodka (and rightly so). Hard to imagine their friends saying, "Oh, it is just your brain" or "It is just that the club is not exciting enough." Certain drugs have certain effects. While there may be variables and a range of intensity, the effect profile should remain basically the same.


----------



## epic11

Le Junk said:


> If you thoroughly enjoyed your experience 14 years ago, you will be thoroughly disappointed with todays MDMA. With regards to humans being the issue or loss of magic or tolerance, keep in mind that there is a physical marker  present with todays crappy MDMA. That is a lack of dilation of the pupils. If you remember correctly from when you rolled 14 years ago, you will remember that your pupils would dilate the entire width of the eyeball leaving only a microscopic sliver of eyecolor around the outer edge.  That does not exist anymore with todays modern MDMA. It’s that simple, if your pupils dont dilate all the way to the outer edge, you are doing bad MDMA. End of story. The comments about how awful modern MDMA is with regards to trip reports coincide with a lack of dilation of pupils. I don’t know why we’re still having this discussion on it possibly being a human problem when there Is a definitive visual marker proving otherwise.



Biggest marker for me as well. I notice and experience the same. I used to have WAY bigger pupils. @AutoTripper PLEASE DOCUMENT what your pupils do for us with those bowsers.


----------



## AutoTripper

Yeah sure man I will definitely check that. Just to say though that I have seen some photos of Reddit-heads rolling with very enlarged pupils recently.

I also found this recent mini roll report on Erowid, where it sounds like an old timer has a quite fulfilling MDMA expereince. I keep an eye out for any interesting accounts anyway in relation to this topic. 




__





						MDMA - Erowid Exp - 'Uforic Undulance'
					

An Experience with MDMA. 'Uforic Undulance' by Jazzyjeff



					erowid.org
				




@Le Junk -We are not worthy! Lol, thanks for joining us. Yes I understand all of that very clearly. I read this whole thread with interest and took a big lion's share of old skool MDMA from 96 to 05.

Sure thing I remember saucer eyes. God knows how many (millions?) of pills were sold by dealer's advertisment if you get me, defintely thousands at least.

Maybw not such an effective sales tactic today by the sounds of it.

And hey, Im not suggesting it is tolerance or loss of magic. I dont actually believe in loss of magic for myself, I never lost the magic despite heavy longteme overuse.

A little tolerance break may be needed sure but I was always able to enjoy my MDMA fully enough, maybe Im just lucky. I feel that that magic is always there to be tapped into for me, at least it was and I dont see why that would have changed. 

You guys have convinced me of this. Im just hoping it isnt quite as widespread and encompassing as it sounds.


----------



## Le Junk

AutoTripper said:


> You guys have convinced me of this. Im just hoping it isnt quite as widespread and encompassing as it sounds.



Im afraid youre going to find that it is.  Its literally everywhere.  Just keep an eye on those pupils.  Your buzz will directly coincide with those my friend.  Best of luck to you and definitely keep us posted.


----------



## epic11

Le Junk said:


> Im afraid youre going to find that it is.  Its literally everywhere.





epic11 said:


> Theory: The flawed mdma we have now was starting to be mass produced around that time (09-13), but hadnt fully penetrated a majority of the big makers, and therefore the goods were still found more often than not. Flash foward to today the flawed mdma is now the majority in the market, and now we are here asking these questions.



An exact theory on that by myself here. Makes sense to me.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

It's not just lack of pupil dilation. Its lack of total euphoria. Its lack of breaking through to that headspace where just breathing is almost orgasmic. Its lack of empathy. All in all it's a totally lacking experience. Granted, it can still be enjoyable in an 'im fucked up' kind of way, but its not the same. The reason we know thst it has fuck all to do with tolerance, nostalgia or set and setting is that occasionally we get a batch that brings it all back. I've had it only once in the last 10 years, but I'm not gonna give up looking...


----------



## Swim15

I don’t know if I agree with the pupil dilation but I wasn’t around for the ‘good stuff’ either. I rolled this past weekend and had the massive entire eye pupil dilation described here in regards to the good stuff but have also had the same dilation on MDMA that I would call shitty. The difference with my stuff from this weekend would be the empathy and amazing euphoria though.

As far as location, my personal batch is Dutch. I’ve never gotten anything good locally though and wouldn’t ever trust anything purchased outside the DN tbh. I have had some amazing batches come from Canada though.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> It's not just lack of pupil dilation. Its lack of total euphoria. Its lack of breaking through to that headspace where just breathing is almost orgasmic. Its lack of empathy. All in all it's a totally lacking experience. Granted, it can still be enjoyable in an 'im fucked up' kind of way, but its not the same. The reason we know thst it has fuck all to do with tolerance, nostalgia or set and setting is that occasionally we get a batch that brings it all back. I've had it only once in the last 10 years, but I'm not gonna give up looking...



Thats exactly what we are referring to. What you described here, seems to only coincide, at least for me, when your pupils dont dilate fully. 

Basically we are saying, the meh-dma wont make your pupils huge, and therefore you know you have meh-dma, and get the experience you describe here.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

epic11 said:


> Thats exactly what we are referring to. What you described here, seems to only coincide, at least for me, when your pupils dont dilate fully.
> 
> Basically we are saying, the meh-dma wont make your pupils huge, and therefore you know you have meh-dma, and get the experience you describe here.



True to a point, but the last MagicDMA I had didn't cause massive pupil dilation - it was significant but not excessive. But everything else was there in shitloads...


----------



## AutoTripper

Interesting discussion guys. You know, back in the day, I always used to be very interested in observing my own pupil dilation on acid, but not so much MDMA for some reason. I mean I don't think I paid it too much attention, reflecting now.

Sure I observed it no doubt. Maybe just got so used to it, nevr checked or thought to notice, or maybe I just couldn't see because I was so off my face lol. MDMA did always used to affect my eyesight, reading and stuff went out the window at moderate doses, just blurriness but I always used weed with MDMA.

So if I can be clear on one thing- very large saucer pupils="good" MDMA..

And Mehdma is ruled out if saucers are fully black? 

This will help me, to collect markers to keep watch for, to keep me mindfully distracted and guide my experience.
I have some nerves about it due to my extreme sensitivities. I tried a 5htp capsule 3 weeks ago and had such an adverse reaction I shan't repeat it.

But it doesn't follow that MDMA will be worse, or as bad. I read many years ago, of accounts of cat allergies being cured while the subjects were under the influence of MDMA but I was never able to learn if these effects were permanent in any cases.

Im game to try. I just mean, if I didn't need to think about this factor and other major unusual health complications, I would be 100% free, flexible, confident and optimistic about it. It would have already happened a long time ago. 

So Im just trying to get myself right for it, or at least in a better place.
Also, I feel like I need to get the most out of it, it's not like I want to be rolling frequently with sense right?  And my situation makes it impossible currently to have any control over each day, night and my condition and experience.


I AM excited though, and increasingly confident about it. I wasn't sure of the method but I think I will swallow, and not plug. I had already decided that but I realise now that this will make it a fairer test for the sake of this discussion vs plugging which I only did a number of times back then.

One possible complication however. I REALLY want to be of service to this discussion, as objectively as possible. A big reason why I want to be as gathered and prepared as I can.

Candyflipping was my favorite always. They made each other better for me in every way. I have been genuinely thinking I may take the MDMA pill 3-4 hours into a trip of some sort (1plsd, ALD or 25, likely 1p though). And likely 150ug.

I think once settled on an acid trip, I would be in the best place to come up on the MDMA. This may not happen at all though, but it would arguably affect the pupil dilation observation. I think I might be leaning away from this ides actually as I type. Ypu guys are a great sounding board lol thanks!

I hope to gather numerous clear markers. I can monitor my heart rate but doesnt always reveal too much. Im sure at least 20 bpm extra, maybe twice that I dont recall.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> True to a point, but the last MagicDMA I had didn't cause massive pupil dilation - it was significant but not excessive. But everything else was there in shitloads...




Interesting note here. Ill keep this in mind.

Im about 2ish weeks away from rolling for the first time since sept 2018. This will give me a 9-10 month break. I love this substance way too much to take her on frequent occasion. Will keep you posted! I hope to get absolutely worked. haha


----------



## epic11

@AutoTripper Heres a list of things to rate on a scale of 1-10 for us on your experience. I notice modern reports on pillreports have sort of fallen out of this practice. Lets bring that back shall we?

@F.U.B.A.R.  (please use this at the end of your report)

Euphoria:
Empathy:
Energy:
Eye Wiggles:
Pupil Dilation:
Jaw Clenching:
Body High:

Overall:


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Chanced upon some MDMA earlier. Off white fluffy powder. 130mg down the hatch.

MehDMA or MagicDMA?

Watch this space...


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Chanced upon some MDMA earlier. Off white fluffy powder. 130mg down the hatch.
> 
> MehDMA or MagicDMA?
> 
> Watch this space...




When was you last roll? How long have you waited for the threads info? Exciting to watch! Thanks for poppin in.

Edit: Mind taking a quick shot of the product for us? Id love to see it visually to compare with what i believe meh-dma tends to look like. Hurry before you get smacked!!! LOL

edit #2: Got too excited and didnt see the time of post. Guys mid-smacked already.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Last roll was a few months ago on some MehDMA

I tried to get a picture, but I couldn't get a decent one. But it's a fluffy white powder with sparkly bits. I've not tested it but it came recommended by someone I trust.

Very smooth with that trippy psilocybin feel that a lot of the stuff is lacking these days.


----------



## Le Junk

FUBAR, you probably already answered this somewhere along the way, but when was the very first time you ever tried ecstasy?  What year?  

Le Junk


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Le Junk said:


> FUBAR, you probably already answered this somewhere along the way, but when was the very first time you ever tried ecstasy?  What year?
> 
> Le Junk




Er, about 90/91 i think. One of the original doves


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Last roll was a few months ago on some MehDMA
> 
> I tried to get a picture, but I couldn't get a decent one. But it's a fluffy white powder with sparkly bits. I've not tested it but it came recommended by someone I trust.
> 
> Very smooth with that trippy psilocybin feel that a lot of the stuff is lacking these days.



How much is "a few" and are you you claming mdma feels like psilocybin? Thats a bit confusing to me. Thank you for the updates.


----------



## Phobos

AutoTripper said:


> But it doesn't follow that MDMA will be worse, or as bad. I read many years ago, of accounts of cat allergies being cured while the subjects were under the influence of MDMA but I was never able to learn if these effects were permanent in any cases.



MDMA is a potent releaser of adrenaline, a neurotransmitter that is also used in the emergency treatment of allergic reactions. 
I would say it's likely the allergy was not cured, but that the usual symptoms did not appear upon contact/proximity with felines because of the increase in adrenaline levels.
I'm pretty sure many other stimulant drugs would have a similar, if not the same, effect.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> @AutoTripper Heres a list of things to rate on a scale of 1-10 for us on your experience. I notice modern reports on pillreports have sort of fallen out of this practice. Lets bring that back shall we?
> 
> @F.U.B.A.R.  (please use this at the end of your report)
> 
> Euphoria:
> Empathy:
> Energy:
> Eye Wiggles:
> Pupil Dilation:
> Jaw Clenching:
> Body High:
> 
> Overall:


Thanks a lot man, I'll do my best to keep this all in mind. Except you forgot- Come-up shit. ?


----------



## indigoaura

I was going through some old computer files and I found a note from February, 2009. I don't remember this very well. This must have been during the brief period that I grabbed some pills from a local source. As I recall, I had read some posts here on Bluelight advocating taking two pills initially together for a more classic experience. I don't know if these are the pills that ended up making me and my husband so sick afterwards. Maybe. In any case, I think the times are interesting. Also interesting that I specifically comment on the eye dilation only 20 minutes later.

Beige Infiniti
Took (almost) 2 @ 5:11 pm
Noticed initial eye dilation and “rushy” feeling at 5:31 pm
Feeling lightly nauseous @ 5:37 pm
Def rolling at 5:38 pm
Took 3rd  around 6:24 pm
Took 4th around 7:40
Feeling slightly down at 9:48 pm


----------



## AutoTripper

Hello @indigoaura hope you have begun a lovely fresh new day. 
One brief comment. 4 pills should not have you feeling even slightly down that soon. 

4 real deals would keep my sky high for up to 24 hours with the very best. But more than 5 hours. Imagine all the times I went to work, many times at Tesco, tripping out of my face on really good pills.

Like 3.5 Snowballs, or 5 Hexagons/Ladybirds. On that occasion, 5 pills were taken overnight. By 7.30 am work time, I wasn't the least bit down. Really crisp, full on hallucinogenic state and I strongly suspected some of those pills to contain MDA specifically the hexagons.

I was so wired, high, loved up, rushing supreme. Everything sparkling and looking amazing on top of the world but not very happy about having to work at a superstore on a traffic jam Saturday.

The first pills were taken at about 6 pm that Friday- 2 Ladybirds each me and a friend. Wow they were exceptionally good. Hit as hard as any double drop and before you even knew it as well. 

No 45 minutes 1st alert business I tell you. Those Ladybirds were definitely over 100mg, gauged confidently by me now in comparison to other very specific memories I have stored of pills I saw trusted analysis and milligram content of over time.  

Like for example, in 2003- White Bacardi Bats. Very clean, tiny little pills. As hard and neat and tidy a press as you would see one for the mantelpiece they were beautiful little tablets.

I saw what I considered to be a very trustworthy analysis at the time of 93 mg of MDMA per pill which matched perfectly with what I was experiencing.

One pill was not too strong but was very effective you noticed it and I was taking three at a time quite a few times and getting extremely strong effects which would have me feeling hammered and high the whole of the next day.

But these Ladybirds in 2004, were unquestionably considerably stronger than those Bacardi bats. 2 Ladybirds was basically not far off 3 Bacardis.

130 mg easily I reckon.  Just an example, but I stored up loads of experience details like that over time. I have always been an insanely curious cat and have had a strong interest in how dosages correlate to effects between different pills.   


So that Friday night and following Saturday at work- we came up fast on the 6pm double drop. Like 10 minutes and feeling floored, and this was always pretty normal for me from double dropping 2 very strong e's. 

Then a short while later much to my dismay I discovered that my friend had sold our ladybirds and replaced them with these little speckly beige Hexagons.

I was a bit annoyed at him for letting those amazing pills go but he seemed confident that these were even better and he was actually right but they were incredibly trippy I'm sure they were MDA exceptionally good pills again and no way inferior to the ladybirds.

By 5 am (I think) I had only taken another 3 Hexagons. 5 total in 11 hours. By 7.30 am, I had not come down, levelled out or straightened up the least bit and I was 100% totally out of my face rushing in ecstasy utopia.

It was an incredibly hard day at work the superstore was so overrun  that there was not a single trolley or basket going spare like the busiest day of the year which always happened to me on these Saturday's when I was out of my head. 

Which kind of helps in a way I suppose because everybody was in such chaos in their own positions nobody had time to clock how wasted I was but they never did anyway  in any of my jobs  somehow. It was a long and testing day.

By 4.30 pm  I still had not exactly come down I was still off my face and wasted and rushing maybe the hallucinogenic aspect had eased off to an extent but my high was pretty solid as far as longevity and qualitative experience goes.

I never had a bad come down from these experiences if anything I felt remarkably good as I came back to baseline. Emotions and motivation obviously could be affected tumultuously over coming days but this has always just been the price to pay for heavy MDMA consumption.

So my point I guess is about the stability and specifically longevity of the high and experience from this exceptionally good quality MDMA.  5 pills giving a 24 hour experience. The following evenings I would often feel like I have come back up again when pot sessioning with friends after work and I would be as high as a kite for the rest of the night into the early hours of Monday.


Okay I got distracted again, but I wanted to share that anyhow wishing you all an excellent start to the weekend.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

epic11 said:


> How much is "a few" and are you you claming mdma feels like psilocybin? Thats a bit confusing to me. Thank you for the updates.





epic11 said:


> How much is "a few" and are you you claming mdma feels like psilocybin? Thats a bit confusing to me. Thank you for the updates.



I don't know how long ago tbh - I don't obsessively track my usage. When I've got some, I'll just cane it till it's all gone - which is admittedly a waste, but I just can't resist 

And yes, I do feel there are some similarities between psilocybin and decent MDMA. I really took to MDMA initially because it was like tripping but without the headfuck. Much of the MehDMA doesn't have this quality unfortunately.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I don't know how long ago tbh - I don't obsessively track my usage. When I've got some, I'll just cane it till it's all gone - which is admittedly a waste, but I just can't resist
> 
> And yes, I do feel there are some similarities between psilocybin and decent MDMA. I really took to MDMA initially because it was like tripping but without the headfuck. Much of the MehDMA doesn't have this quality unfortunately.




Sooooooooooooooo ............ Thoughts? How was that stuff? We are awaiting your report. haha "meh" or "magic" on that batch?


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Thanks a lot man, I'll do my best to keep this all in mind. Except you forgot- Come-up shit. ?


ahhhhhh the disco dump. lol


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> ahhhhhh the disco dump. lol


You know, whenever I think back to me very early introductions to ecstasy, taking Californian Sunrisers (and not the best but legit MDMA) at Helter Skelter raves at- IKEA of all places!! Lol, it still trips me out madly whenever I go there shopping with my mum it's mind-blowing to imagine that very same building used to be the Sanctuary Arena where we blasted our brains to oblivion.

But anyway, kind of analogous to your earliest formed memories which are like snapshots at times, my initial come up and experience observations- eye wiggles of course, jaw shudders with dosage increase, but I have very distinct memories of the come up bowel purging effect.


Also randomly but maybe of relevance here- I have one vivid memory of being at Dreamscape 25 at the Sanctuary Milton Keynes- was an excellent rave. I had 3 really decent Dolphins that night. Very clean, proper. Amazing night.

But one bizarre occurence- I had cone up on my 2nd Dolphin. Was rushing, feeling amazing. Mind blown. First pill put me high in the clouds already. (Wow, Im just tapping into that exact moment entering the rave that night. About 1.5 hours after taking my first e that night in the queue. I was initially dissociated and monged out, but in clean MDMA style. Just so mellow, tranquil, tired too. Waiting outside in very long queues. It was early evening, light and sunny still when we got inside).

I remember passing through the search and that feeling of true ecstasy and the excitement and euphoria. I have powerful snapshots of that monent. It was like awaking as a butterfly with infinite gasoline and flowing lava in abundance.

It just kept getting better and better and was literally unbelievable how incredibly good everything and everything truly was from every single angle.
I have never described the feeling of true ecstasy to myself better than that, or even tried to. 

But seriously, I just channelled back just now to really feel it. In a virtual flashback sense. Shivers down my spine, I havent tuned into the feeling of real MDMA ever like that.

I can explore this haha. Wow.

Anyway, sorry that was unexpected. Amazing what is possible within the psyche.
THAT is what my Bowsers SHOULD feel like.

So back to my point- coming up on my 2nd Dolphin at the Sanctuary that night. Dark sky by then. I was in the large outdoor area with my friend who never took ecstasy back then, they had dodgem cars for people to ride on as well as food stalls and maybe some other fairground ride I can't remember.

But I remember being suddenly so incredibly hungry that all I knew was I needed to eat food there and then and it was the utmost priority.

Hungry in the true healthy since I was young and fit and full-time working and I did need some food but I was coming up hard on my second dolphin and would not have expected to have an appetite will be able to eat and digest food at that moment. 

So I followed my gut and bought a hot dog with whatever it came with definitely ketchup and wolfed it down in no time followed by a cup of hot tea. It was the most delicious hot dog ever and felt so right to be eating it I never even felt it in terms of it being a problem digestion wise and it really sorted me out and gave me energy and comforts to get back into the rave and my rolling which only got better from thereon.


Anyway, just another vivid memory of MDMA experience and I wonder if the modern suspect MDMA would allow somebody to eat food so easily and enjoyably at such a moment.

Probably not a very useful marker however because I certainly never used to make the habit of eating on my come up but I definitely used to be able to eat food after clean MDMA, as long as the pills were good quality.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

epic11 said:


> Sooooooooooooooo ............ Thoughts? How was that stuff? We are awaiting your report. haha "meh" or "magic" on that batch?



Oh yeh, sorry...

Well, I think the fact I didn't report back immediately enthusing about my experience probably speaks volumes.

It was enjoyable and did have certain qualities reminiscent of the 'magic' stuff, but again didn't quite get there. It was better than much of the stuff I've had this last few years, but not totally fulfilling. However, it did have that psychedelic quality where I was happy staring at the night sky and basking in its glory. Unfortunately, even after a 100mg redose around the 3 hour mark, I was fast asleep by around 1am, having initially dropped about 8:30pm.

So on a scale of 1 - 10:

Euphoria: 4
Empathy: 3
Energy: 2
Eye wiggles: 4
Pupil dilation: 3
Jaw clenching: 2
Body high: 5

Overall experience: 5  Enjoyable but short lived and relatively mellow. But this could be due to the fact I only took130mg initially when I normally do at least 150mg. Also, I had absolutely no urge to redose until 3 hours had passed, which is a good sign.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Oh yeh, sorry...
> 
> Well, I think the fact I didn't report back immediately enthusing about my experience probably speaks volumes.
> 
> It was enjoyable and did have certain qualities reminiscent of the 'magic' stuff, but again didn't quite get there. It was better than much of the stuff I've had this last few years, but not totally fulfilling. However, it did have that psychedelic quality where I was happy staring at the night sky and basking in its glory. Unfortunately, even after a 100mg redose around the 3 hour mark, I was fast asleep by around 1am, having initially dropped about 8:30pm.
> 
> So on a scale of 1 - 10:
> 
> Euphoria: 4
> Empathy: 3
> Energy: 2
> Eye wiggles: 4
> Pupil dilation: 3
> Jaw clenching: 2
> Body high: 5
> 
> Overall experience: 5  Enjoyable but short lived and relatively mellow. But this could be due to the fact I only took130mg initially when I normally do at least 150mg. Also, I had absolutely no urge to redose until 3 hours had passed, which is a good sign.



thanks for stopping by again, and BIG THANK YOU for using that little guide I posted. It should help to re-adopt that going forward for the threads purpose. (people used to post these with each report, that hasnt been the case for a few years now) Sounds like the mario bullets i had once in like 2015/16. Close, pretty good, but still not quite.


Now Ive been giving out HR tips on this site for some time now. Since 2011 actually, and to hear the way you dosed was quite a shock to me being a member of this forum. Re-dosing after 3 hours will do absolutely nothing for you besides extend the more amphetamine type parts of it, and could make you hallucinate a bit from breakdown to mda. Useless really. Your initial dose is the most important, and if you must get more in, get it between 45-50 mins, right before you start to come up generally. I'm surprised to hear you skipped this massive key in harm reduction here, with the experience you have. Obviously you aren't gone, but that wasnt safe and i cannot recommend that. Hows your mood today? Makes me wonder, have you always rolled like this? If so, you seriously may not be able to feel this stuff for quite some time. It demands the utmost respect. 

While you know yourself better than i could ever pretend to know...... In my opinion, you massively went against the pretty standard across the board HR "rules" about mdma, and how to make it basically always work for you.

**GENERAL ECSTASY GUIDELINES I LIVE BY BELOW**


Please, 4-6 month wait time between doses. (id argue a year + after this) Eat healthy, get sunlight. Test your gear with a test kit, and don't guess what substance you may be taking. Only take 1 strong initial dose followed by half that amount as a top up to keep it going another hour at most. Thats it. Less is more. Stay safe, i truly care about people here on bluelight. Its sad to me that people are ignoring the harm reduction of this substance. 

Im sorry this wasnt magic for you this time around. Take care.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Yes, I realised at the time that the redose wouldn't do much as I'd passed that point. It certainly didn't extend the amphetamine type effects because there weren't any of significance. In fact I was fast asleep about an hour after the redose. Normally I would redose much sooner, but I just didn't feel the need, which was a good sign.

Felt fine the next day, a bit sweaty in the morning but that was it really.


----------



## epic11

Awesome! Thanks for your report. Definitely helps my upcoming test ill be dropping info for soon!!! A rare "epic11" first hand account coming to you soon. Think ill go 150 based off your new report. (my usual dose was 120)


----------



## psy997

Guys, I tried a batch of MDMA this past Tuesday, and it was good! Unfortunately, it was from a limited source that is unlikely to have more. But, I have the scent again!

Euphoria: 6-8
Empathy: 6-8
Energy: 8
Eye Wiggles: 7
Pupil Dilation: 7
Jaw Clenching: 6
Body High: 7.5

Overall: 8

Lower ratings than I would think would be indicative of good MDMA, but it's hard to rate this experience as I was with a good friend and emotionally processed deep, deep shit for nine hours that has left me reeling in the almost week since. I think if emotional processing and shadow exploration had not been occurring to such a huge degree I would have had the classic loved up euphoric experience. Come-up was as should be, duration was as should be - peak for 4-5 hours, still had residual stimulation and after effects 11-12 hours later, and had an afterglow for most the next day - visuals and eye wiggles were there, dilation was there, enhanced tactile sensation was there, etc.

It was definitely not the MehDMA I've had most every time since 2016, but it's hard to rate since I've never processed so much shit on MDMA before. I usually use the first inklings of openness to crack myself open into euphoric love land, but this time it was like the pull towards that highlighted every psychological, emotional, and energetic obstacle blocking openness, love, and connection, and the entire trip was spent processing those obstacles, back and forth, between me and her, in 45-90 minute chunks of time. So, I didn't experience the cracked the fuck open for 8-9 hours experience I'm used to, and I think that was set and setting more than the drug. And, it's hard to say since it's been over two years since I last had good MDMA. 

If this stuff wasn't as good as it's supposed to be, it was damn close. And it was definitely much better than the stuff I tried a few weeks ago.


----------



## jose ribas da silva

Capitalism man, no one cares about quality when sales remain high


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

psy997 said:


> Guys, I tried a batch of MDMA this past Tuesday, and it was good! Unfortunately, it was from a limited source that is unlikely to have more. But, I have the scent again!
> 
> Euphoria: 6-8
> Empathy: 6-8
> Energy: 8
> Eye Wiggles: 7
> Pupil Dilation: 7
> Jaw Clenching: 6
> Body High: 7.5
> 
> Overall: 8
> 
> Lower ratings than I would think would be indicative of good MDMA, but it's hard to rate this experience as I was with a good friend and emotionally processed deep, deep shit for nine hours that has left me reeling in the almost week since. I think if emotional processing and shadow exploration had not been occurring to such a huge degree I would have had the classic loved up euphoric experience. Come-up was as should be, duration was as should be - peak for 4-5 hours, still had residual stimulation and after effects 11-12 hours later, and had an afterglow for most the next day - visuals and eye wiggles were there, dilation was there, enhanced tactile sensation was there, etc.
> 
> It was definitely not the MehDMA I've had most every time since 2016, but it's hard to rate since I've never processed so much shit on MDMA before. I usually use the first inklings of openness to crack myself open into euphoric love land, but this time it was like the pull towards that highlighted every psychological, emotional, and energetic obstacle blocking openness, love, and connection, and the entire trip was spent processing those obstacles, back and forth, between me and her, in 45-90 minute chunks of time. So, I didn't experience the cracked the fuck open for 8-9 hours experience I'm used to, and I think that was set and setting more than the drug. And, it's hard to say since it's been over two years since I last had good MDMA.
> 
> If this stuff wasn't as good as it's supposed to be, it was damn close. And it was definitely much better than the stuff I tried a few weeks ago.



That's an encouraging scoresheet


psy997 said:


> Guys, I tried a batch of MDMA this past Tuesday, and it was good! Unfortunately, it was from a limited source that is unlikely to have more. But, I have the scent again!
> 
> Euphoria: 6-8
> Empathy: 6-8
> Energy: 8
> Eye Wiggles: 7
> Pupil Dilation: 7
> Jaw Clenching: 6
> Body High: 7.5
> 
> Overall: 8
> 
> Lower ratings than I would think would be indicative of good MDMA, but it's hard to rate this experience as I was with a good friend and emotionally processed deep, deep shit for nine hours that has left me reeling in the almost week since. I think if emotional processing and shadow exploration had not been occurring to such a huge degree I would have had the classic loved up euphoric experience. Come-up was as should be, duration was as should be - peak for 4-5 hours, still had residual stimulation and after effects 11-12 hours later, and had an afterglow for most the next day - visuals and eye wiggles were there, dilation was there, enhanced tactile sensation was there, etc.
> 
> It was definitely not the MehDMA I've had most every time since 2016, but it's hard to rate since I've never processed so much shit on MDMA before. I usually use the first inklings of openness to crack myself open into euphoric love land, but this time it was like the pull towards that highlighted every psychological, emotional, and energetic obstacle blocking openness, love, and connection, and the entire trip was spent processing those obstacles, back and forth, between me and her, in 45-90 minute chunks of time. So, I didn't experience the cracked the fuck open for 8-9 hours experience I'm used to, and I think that was set and setting more than the drug. And, it's hard to say since it's been over two years since I last had good MDMA.
> 
> If this stuff wasn't as good as it's supposed to be, it was damn close. And it was definitely much better than the stuff I tried a few weeks ago.



That's a very encouraging report as those scores are pretty high on all levels. Anything higher would be exceptional.


----------



## indigoaura

Congratulations @psy997 ! Sounds like you have a winner!

My partner and I used to have those deep, "talk it out" experiences on MDMA. You just opened up to each other naturally and addressed things. That quality is also lacking in the MehDMA. I have been referring to it as a "confessional" quality. That was how you ended up telling your most personal secrets to a stranger on the dancefloor. 

I will be interested to hear how your comedown is over the next several days. What dosage did you take? Did you re-dose? How often? Was this product a powder, crystal, pill?


----------



## AutoTripper

I am really curious to maybe hear how @Le Junk would score his good MDMA he is still able to source, by those guidelines.

I mean, supposing we had the absolute very best MDMA we could ever want but nothing which has not existed and which we have not experienced before for argument sake.

It would be straighy 10's right? I mean it would have to be because we are drawing the definitions and expectations from that standard.  

So even an 8, is leaving a lot to be desired.
It would be interesting to see if members here were able to experience the best MDMA exactly how they would score it by that chart.

Go with the gut and heart, 10's all the way?
Or rationalize it, perhaps innacurately, reasoning a perfect score is unlikely or unachievable?

Hehe don't mind me just thinking aloud on the spot really. But I do wonder how Le Junk might score his good batch, it sounds as though it may be almost the best stuff out there.


----------



## indigoaura

@LeJunk time for you to throw a party (in the name of science, of course). 

@AutoTripper I guess it depends on if you are rating each category based on the best possible for MDMA, or the best possible in general. For example, MDMA is never going to give as much energy as a straight amphetamine. So, can MDMA ever reach a 10 there? Is 10 reserved for something like methamphetamine? I would also argue that something like "jaw clenching" is variable but not as significant to the perfect roll. Some of the best rolls I recall were not notable because of jaw clenching, and I recall other times I chewed my face up with no empathy. 

I would personally like to see another category for sexuality/eroticism or whatever you want to call it. You can have a body high that is not necessarily sexual, so I feel like it is a separate category. Also, what about sociability/desire to connect/desire to share? Is that empathy or is that something different? I feel like empathy/feeling connected to others is a slightly different variable than a desire to talk to others. I have had psychedelic experiences that were very high in empathy, but I had no desire to open my mouth and share anything.


----------



## hydroazuanacaine

really clean mdma leaves me horribly depressed the next day. gets romanticized. like people saying clean coke isn’t fiendish.


----------



## indigoaura

Yes, you are right. Really good MDMA will leave you depressed. For me, it is usually a few days later and not the next day. But, this is just another sign that what is currently circulating is not right. The MehDMA does not leave me depressed at all. There is no "gloomy Tuesday."


----------



## benzoboss

Not 9n the mood to read 2 years worth. 
So I would appreciate it if anyone could tell of we likely found out the reason lol


----------



## Zoqium

Poor quality product and unrealistic expectations.


----------



## AutoTripper

benzoboss said:


> Not 9n the mood to read 2 years worth.
> So I would appreciate it if anyone could tell of we likely found out the reason lol


You're just in time. I think the big announcement is coming next week! Lol. We wish. Still largely theories and suspicions at present. Im poor with the details on all of that, but trust me I wanna know just as much as any of you do.

I think it's exciting to think that we may actually get to hear this explained and revealed fully at some point. Like official undisputed confirmation first, with scientific explanation and understanding.


----------



## benzoboss

AutoTripper said:


> You're just in time. I think the big announcement is coming next week! Lol. We wish. Still largely theories and suspicions at present. Im poor with the details on all of that, but trust me I wanna know just as much as any of you do.
> 
> I think it's exciting to think that we may actually get to hear this explained and revealed fully at some point. Like official undisputed confirmation first, with scientific explanation and understanding.



What are 5hey exactly doing? 
Testing for isomeres? 


I personally havent had a problem w today's mdma but I also haven't done any old school stuff. 

MD usually just feels like pure joy and love compressed into a pill. 
I gues I have been fooled then. 
Meybe that I will experience what you guys describe as the real deal. 
Meybe not.


----------



## epic11

psy997 said:


> Guys, I tried a batch of MDMA this past Tuesday, and it was good! Unfortunately, it was from a limited source that is unlikely to have more. But, I have the scent again!
> 
> Euphoria: 6-8
> Empathy: 6-8
> Energy: 8
> Eye Wiggles: 7
> Pupil Dilation: 7
> Jaw Clenching: 6
> Body High: 7.5
> 
> Overall: 8
> 
> Lower ratings than I would think would be indicative of good MDMA, but it's hard to rate this experience as I was with a good friend and emotionally processed deep, deep shit for nine hours that has left me reeling in the almost week since. I think if emotional processing and shadow exploration had not been occurring to such a huge degree I would have had the classic loved up euphoric experience. Come-up was as should be, duration was as should be - peak for 4-5 hours, still had residual stimulation and after effects 11-12 hours later, and had an afterglow for most the next day - visuals and eye wiggles were there, dilation was there, enhanced tactile sensation was there, etc.
> 
> It was definitely not the MehDMA I've had most every time since 2016, but it's hard to rate since I've never processed so much shit on MDMA before. I usually use the first inklings of openness to crack myself open into euphoric love land, but this time it was like the pull towards that highlighted every psychological, emotional, and energetic obstacle blocking openness, love, and connection, and the entire trip was spent processing those obstacles, back and forth, between me and her, in 45-90 minute chunks of time. So, I didn't experience the cracked the fuck open for 8-9 hours experience I'm used to, and I think that was set and setting more than the drug. And, it's hard to say since it's been over two years since I last had good MDMA.
> 
> If this stuff wasn't as good as it's supposed to be, it was damn close. And it was definitely much better than the stuff I tried a few weeks ago.



Well thats encouraging!!! Without giving out too much info, was this possibly this new stuff being made with an even newer precursor im seeing around? Any chance this is from canada?


----------



## indigoaura

@benzoboss "Pure joy and love compressed in a pill" is what it is supposed to be. The problem is that some people, in some regions, are not encountering that. If you do not mind me asking, where do you live (general region is fine)? Also, do you tend to use pills or crystal/powder?

The current leading theories are (in no particular order):

1. A completely different substance that has an identical molar mass and appears to be MDMA on GCMS testing.
2. A variation in isomers.
3. An adulterant that interferes in the absorption/availability of MDMA.

Whatever the problem is, it seems to have developed due to changes in precursors/production. 

In order to proceed any further with this analysis, we need advanced testing beyond GCMS. I am trying to find researchers to help with this.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> Well thats encouraging!!! Without giving out too much info, was this possibly this new stuff being made with an even newer precursor im seeing around? Any chance this is from canada?


Wouldn't that be something hey? If a new precursor came into mass usage, which is capable of producing a far superior product and much closer to saffrole derived MDMA.  Really shaking things up.  I mean, you just never know what is round the corner right!

So often in life, good things come to an end. Solutions are lacking or non-existent. A need is borne to search farther afield. And this can lead to new discoveries and revelation. 

It excites me to think that this could all dramatically swing back the other way if a new, much better precursor was adopted. 

I try to be the optimist, but I think I'm just a wishful thinker really lol.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

AutoTripper said:


> I am really curious to maybe hear how @Le Junk would score his good MDMA he is still able to source, by those guidelines.
> 
> I mean, supposing we had the absolute very best MDMA we could ever want but nothing which has not existed and which we have not experienced before for argument sake.
> 
> It would be straighy 10's right? I mean it would have to be because we are drawing the definitions and expectations from that standard.
> 
> So even an 8, is leaving a lot to be desired.
> It would be interesting to see if members here were able to experience the best MDMA exactly how they would score it by that chart.
> 
> Go with the gut and heart, 10's all the way?
> Or rationalize it, perhaps innacurately, reasoning a perfect score is unlikely or unachievable?
> 
> Hehe don't mind me just thinking aloud on the spot really. But I do wonder how Le Junk might score his good batch, it sounds as though it may be almost the best stuff out there.



This is the problem with providing scores which are totally subjective. Even the very best stuff I've had wouldn't achieve a 10 in every category, and I wouldn't really want it to. I think the most telling score is the overall one - it doesn't even have to be enumerated, simply "that was fuckin amazing shit" would suffice. How many times do we actually hear that these days?


----------



## indigoaura

@F.U.B.A.R.  I wish the old pill reports website had not removed all the old written reports that pre-date 2005. I used to post religiously, and all those old reports would provide a valuable comparison to what is being posted today.


----------



## benzoboss

indigoaura said:


> @benzoboss "Pure joy and love compressed in a pill" is what it is supposed to be. The problem is that some people, in some regions, are not encountering that. If you do not mind me asking, where do you live (general region is fine)? Also, do you tend to use pills or crystal/powder?
> 
> The current leading theories are (in no particular order):
> 
> 1. A completely different substance that has an identical molar mass and appears to be MDMA on GCMS testing.
> 2. A variation in isomers.
> 3. An adulterant that interferes in the absorption/availability of MDMA.
> 
> Whatever the problem is, it seems to have developed due to changes in precursors/production.
> 
> In order to proceed any further with this analysis, we need advanced testing beyond GCMS. I am trying to find researchers to help with this.



The netherlands. 
Usually gets pills


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Dutch mdma is and will always be the best due to the pure precursors used and washes of the product. The states mdma is trash and dirty saffrole mdma is awful. Mdma should never be brown that shows how impure the crystal is and has a bunch of side products in it. The purest washed forms of mdma is pure white crystals. mdma that is made from pmk is alot better than the shit that amateurs make out of saffrole


----------



## epic11

TripSitterNZ said:


> Dutch mdma is and will always be the best due to the pure precursors used and washes of the product. The states mdma is trash and dirty saffrole mdma is awful. Mdma should never be brown that shows how impure the crystal is and has a bunch of side products in it. The purest washed forms of mdma is pure white crystals. mdma that is made from pmk is alot better than the shit that amateurs make out of saffrole




This guy clearly has not read this thread. lol.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

epic11 said:


> This guy clearly has not read this thread. lol.


i live the life, i know how it works out in the states dont hate on europe just because it has all the good stuff. The fact is that dutch mdma is made in massive industrial scale labs with very pure precursors leading to less overeall side reactions during all steps of synthesis by chemists who have been in the game a very long time. In the states mdma is made from precursors that are less than 90% pure resulting in side product formations during the synthesis. In australia the biggest mdma labs  were busted by the police reducing the quality of mdma in the Oceania region. Pick up a organic chemistry text book and read it all the way through. The simple thing is that the amauters making mdma in the states can not call themselves chemists by any means and should go back to school cause its trash.


----------



## epic11

TripSitterNZ said:


> i live the life, i know how it works out in the states dont hate on europe just because it has all the good stuff. The fact is that dutch mdma is made in massive industrial scale labs with very pure precursors leading to less overeall side reactions during all steps of synthesis by chemists who have been in the game a very long time. In the states mdma is made from precursors that are less than 90% pure resulting in side product formations during the synthesis. In australia the biggest mdma labs  were busted by the police reducing the quality of mdma in the Oceania region. Pick up a organic chemistry text book and read it all the way through. The simple thing is that the amauters making mdma in the states can not call themselves chemists by any means and should go back to school cause its trash.



You are assuming people dont have access to pure dutch mdma around the world and you seem to think we are sourcing domestic.(people in the states) Pure dutch mdma isnt doing what it used to. It doesnt smell anymore. The product is beautiful but it lacks the love. READ THE THREAD. You are also very ignorant to think that there isnt domestic mdma being made on par or even better than dutch here. A very elitist and clueless attitude.....


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Just because somebody told you the mdma they have is dutch doesn't mean it is. If your mdma lacks the love thats your sources problem. In holland we don't have that that issue its been good for the last 25 years and will for the future. The main people with a issue with mdma are those outside of Europe. Come over to holland and party here you will very quickly clue on on what the situation truly is.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Many in the UK (myself included) moan about the quality of modern MDMA. You lot are our major source...


----------



## TripSitterNZ

In the UK pretty much everything gets cut along the way by the time it hits a consumer it probably has speed meth mdma and bath salts in it


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

TripSitterNZ said:


> In the UK pretty much everything gets cut along the way by the time it hits a consumer it probably has speed meth mdma and bath salts in it



Actually, that would be a bonus...


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> In the UK pretty much everything gets cut along the way by the time it hits a consumer it probably has speed meth mdma and bath salts in it


Im pretty sure we get Dutch pills direct from source, untampered. Like, all over the country. Lots of bunk as well no doubt, but Im confident that the stellar Dutch product is reaching UK regularly in large enough quantities.


----------



## Goodwalt

TripSitterNZ said:


> In the UK pretty much everything gets cut along the way by the time it hits a consumer it probably has speed meth mdma and bath salts in it


Mr Alexander shulgin, ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## epic11

TripSitterNZ said:


> Just because somebody told you the mdma they have is dutch doesn't mean it is. If your mdma lacks the love thats your sources problem. In holland we don't have that that issue its been good for the last 25 years and will for the future. The main people with a issue with mdma are those outside of Europe. Come over to holland and party here you will very quickly clue on on what the situation truly is.



lolol. Sorry my man, you are very ignorant. You are all assumption. "Just because someone told you" hahahahahahahahahahaha.


----------



## epic11

Soooooooooo. I did it!!! wow!! I can still roll and it was quite amazing. Acquaintance had some brown mdma (brown chunky powder) in a cap at 125mg, and i had some clear crystals (appeared to be dutch, but this batch wasnt totally clear/straight forward about it being of dutch origin, however, it looks and smells exactly the same as my labeled "84% pure dutch mdma" barely a smell, opaque white crystals) All tested with a test kit for mdma, no adulterants.

I took the 125mg brown cap, waited about 5-10mins, and took an extra 30-33 of my own clear crystals to get me up to 150-155, in short fashion. About 50 mins later i dropped another 75 of the clear crystals for a re-dose. (Ive been doing 120 for the past few years and its been underwhelming)

The roll was very nice. The acquaintance did 160 of my clear crystals, +80mg redose after the hour. He did mention to me today "I think im noticing what you are seeing, it was fun and all but it didnt have the "I LOVE EVERYONE" feeling." Once again pointing to my theory of it being the mass produced dutch mdma thats the problem, as he only did the clear crystals with the exact same makeup as my labeled dutch mdma, and i did the brown stuff that ive never taken/seen before.

My own roll ratings below:


Euphoria: 7
Empathy: 6
Energy: 9
Eye Wiggles: 8
Pupil Dilation: 6
Jaw Clenching: 7
Body High: 5

For me though, this was exactly what i needed, and there is good mdma out there. I just need higher doses these days, even without abusing this substance........ever. Im just used to it.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> Soooooooooo. I did it!!! wow!! I can still roll and it was quite amazing. Acquaintance had some brown mdma (brown chunky powder) in a cap at 125mg, and i had some clear crystals (appeared to be dutch, but this batch wasnt totally clear/straight forward about it being of dutch origin, however, it looks and smells exactly the same as my labeled "84% pure dutch mdma" barely a smell, opaque white crystals) All tested with a test kit for mdma, no adulterants.
> 
> I took the 125mg brown cap, waited about 5-10mins, and took an extra 30-33 of my own clear crystals to get me up to 150-155, in short fashion. About 50 mins later i dropped another 75 of the clear crystals for a re-dose. (Ive been doing 120 for the past few years and its been underwhelming)
> 
> The roll was very nice. The acquaintance did 160 of my clear crystals, +80mg redose after the hour. He did mention to me today "I think im noticing what you are seeing, it was fun and all but it didnt have the "I LOVE EVERYONE" feeling." Once again pointing to my theory of it being the mass produced dutch mdma thats the problem, as he only did the clear crystals with the exact same makeup as my labeled dutch mdma, and i did the brown stuff that ive never taken/seen before.
> 
> My own roll ratings below:
> 
> 
> Euphoria: 7
> Empathy: 6
> Energy: 9
> Eye Wiggles: 8
> Pupil Dilation: 6
> Jaw Clenching: 7
> Body High: 5
> 
> For me though, this was exactly what i needed, and there is good mdma out there. I just need higher doses these days, even without abusing this substance........ever. Im just used to it.


Good report man. Very pleased to hear that the experience was an enjoyable an soundingly worthwhile one. I mean, with so few and far between opportunities (tokens) to enjoy this drug and extract and gain from the experience, it sucks a tonne for your experience to be lacklustre and disappointing.

Not just that, but not having any idea what sort of experience you might have leading up to it with such an inability to trust a product details and predict effects etc.

So you did well to access a good experience, to get as much from it as you need this time as you continue stick to your disciplined regimen.

I have to say, I can't help wondering at times how much I might have made you cringe myself with my tales of reckless abandon haha. I hope I don't come across as being arrogant and ignorant and boastful anyway it's not meant like that I'm just being 100% honest from every angle I can.  You can probably see how accepting I am of my past misuse which I think ultimately is a good thing certainly for myself.

Wishinh you a smooth comedown. Still no set date for my Bowsers, Ive just been far too unwell to even consider it, but my mum may be going away for a few days to see my Cancer dying Uncle, in which case I would hope to use the opportunity for Absolute freedom and flexibility.  I don't need to hide my drug taking in any capacity but I still like my own headspace which I never get due to being unable to live by myself financially and health wise, and it is impossible for me to travel and stay away from the home even for a night due to the complications of my allergies.

But those Bowsers have my name on them, (as they used to say about bombs.) No getting out of that firing line now!


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Good report man. Very pleased to hear that the experience was an enjoyable an soundingly worthwhile one. I mean, with so few and far between opportunities (tokens) to enjoy this drug and extract and gain from the experience, it sucks a tonne for your experience to be lacklustre and disappointing.
> 
> Not just that, but not having any idea what sort of experience you might have leading up to it with such an inability to trust a product details and predict effects etc.
> 
> So you did well to access a good experience, to get as much from it as you need this time as you continue stick to your disciplined regimen.
> 
> I have to say, I can't help wondering at times how much I might have made you cringe myself with my tales of reckless abandon haha. I hope I don't come across as being arrogant and ignorant and boastful anyway it's not meant like that I'm just being 100% honest from every angle I can.  You can probably see how accepting I am of my past misuse which I think ultimately is a good thing certainly for myself.
> 
> Wishinh you a smooth comedown. Still no set date for my Bowsers, Ive just been far too unwell to even consider it, but my mum may be going away for a few days to see my Cancer dying Uncle, in which case I would hope to use the opportunity for Absolute freedom and flexibility.  I don't need to hide my drug taking in any capacity but I still like my own headspace which I never get due to being unable to live by myself financially and health wise, and it is impossible for me to travel and stay away from the home even for a night due to the complications of my allergies.
> 
> But those Bowsers have my name on them, (as they used to say about bombs.) No getting out of that firing line now!



Honestly, barely feeling any comedown effects at all besides when looking at pictures of the setting, a slight sadness kicks in. Its very mild. Slept like a baby after the roll too, while still rolling. Clean shit as usual for me.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> Honestly, barely feeling any comedown effects at all besides when looking at pictures of the setting, a slight sadness kicks in. Its very mild. Slept like a baby after the roll too, while still rolling. Clean shit as usual for me.


Thats very good to hear, and exactly as it should be based on my own memories and experiences. I still haven't been able to get my head around the reports and descriptions of the comedowns these days since directing my attention into this topic.

Too many people reporting really awful comedowns which in some cases only begin to occur after a certain amount of uses, but still which I would consider to be very moderate like 4 or 5 uses over a year which is like a month's worth for us back then.

And many have bad comedowns on 1st, 2nd or 3rd try. With good clean pills, I never expected to suffer on a comedown. I've never dreaded it and right up until my MDMA consumption stopped I certainly didn't have any bad comedowns which I remember which put me off rolling again very soon afterwards or at any point in the future.

So I'm definitely pleased to hear that you did not experience a bad comedown from this sample you tried. It sows that it is not a necessity.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

It's strange that you give the body high only a 5 when all the other scores were higher. For me, it's all about the body high and I find it closely linked with the euphoria.

What would you give as an 'overall' score from this experience?


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> It's strange that you give the body high only a 5 when all the other scores were higher. For me, it's all about the body high and I find it closely linked with the euphoria.
> 
> What would you give as an 'overall' score from this experience?



7/8 feels right to me. I think i still need a higher dose. Like 175 initial.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

I usually dose 240mg with no booster through the night just smoke alot of weed. Your life time tolerance builds 220-260mg is a amazing dose though some people would say its overboard you will be fine if you keep your mdma usage down.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> I usually dose 240mg with no booster through the night just smoke alot of weed. Your life time tolerance builds 220-260mg is a amazing dose though some people would say its overboard you will be fine if you keep your mdma usage down.


Hey. Please may I pick your brain? Off the top of your head, what advice might you give me personally for my first scheduled upcoming MDMA experience in 14 years?

My plan is to take one whole pill, 215-230 mg. Likely in halves, 60-90 minutes apart.

I will have zero tolerance and never lost the magic. I always handled MDMA remarkably well especially in a mental and psychological capacity except I have not taken MDMA since I have been very ill physically and I am extremely sensitive to substances in general these days due to my nervous system having been sabotaged by Lyme.

But I really want the fullest and most of immersive experience I can safely and comfortably tolerate. If I'm honest I think I would ideally like to just take the whole pill in one go and be done with it and know that it would be plenty enough, and a bit.

This is specifically advised against in general especially for new users who are almost always told to start with half or a quarter.

But ironically, we are also warned strongly against redosing.  

So I have a few options- half followed by half, 60-90  ins later.
Half followed by 1/4 60-90 minutes later.
A bigger half first followed by the rest, so like 125-140 mg, plus 80-100.

Or...just bosch the whole thing?
I mean what might happen if I did do that? Just a more intense come up than might be comfortable?

Anyway, Im very open and unfixed on it at present, and open to suggestions. I just want to be safe and very importantly do not want to have any regrets about dosing in order to prevent the experience being lacklustre.

Any thoughts will be appreciated.

Edit- I only weigh 55kg currently, but I should be at least 65-70 kg for my height, frame and build so I dont think either of those weight references would be reliable dose markers.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Hey. Please may I pick your brain? Off the top of your head, what advice might you give me personally for my first scheduled upcoming MDMA experience in 14 years?
> 
> My plan is to take one whole pill, 215-230 mg. Likely in halves, 60-90 minutes apart.
> 
> I will have zero tolerance and never lost the magic. I always handled MDMA remarkably well especially in a mental and psychological capacity except I have not taken MDMA since I have been very ill physically and I am extremely sensitive to substances in general these days due to my nervous system having been sabotaged by Lyme.
> 
> But I really want the fullest and most of immersive experience I can safely and comfortably tolerate. If I'm honest I think I would ideally like to just take the whole pill in one go and be done with it and know that it would be plenty enough, and a bit.
> 
> This is specifically advised against in general especially for new users who are almost always told to start with half or a quarter.
> 
> But ironically, we are also warned strongly against redosing.
> 
> So I have a few options- half followed by half, 60-90  ins later.
> Half followed by 1/4 60-90 minutes later.
> A bigger half first followed by the rest, so like 125-140 mg, plus 80-100.
> 
> Or...just bosch the whole thing?
> I mean what might happen if I did do that? Just a more intense come up than might be comfortable?
> 
> Anyway, Im very open and unfixed on it at present, and open to suggestions. I just want to be safe and very importantly do not want to have any regrets about dosing in order to prevent the experience being lacklustre.
> 
> Any thoughts will be appreciated.
> 
> Edit- I only weigh 55kg currently, but I should be at least 65-70 kg for my height, frame and build so I dont think either of those weight references would be reliable dose markers.



@AutoTripper this guy uses mdma every weekend in wreckless fashion. I wouldnt take his advice for your own safety. His opinions will be very skewed. For the bowser, take like 3/4 of it, or a little more than a half bit off. If you are hell-bent on eating the whole thing, get it in within like 20-30 mins, before the come up starts. If the come up has started, anymore you take will just extend it by an hour, and is called a "re-dose" at this point. Hope this helps.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> @AutoTripper this guy uses mdma every weekend in wreckless fashion. I wouldnt take his advice for your own safety. His opinions will be very skewed. For the bowser, take like 3/4 of it, or a little more than a half bit off. If you are hell-bent on eating the whole thing, get it in within like 20-30 mins, before the come up starts. If the come up has started, anymore you take will just extend it by an hour, and is called a "re-dose" at this point. Hope this helps.


Thanks man, I have full respect for your views and experience and always appreciate your advice. And that reminds me also, this whole redosing thing with MDMA. (and with Lsd to a point, but less so).

I really struggle to agree with it. Redosing for me and all others was just normal. It always worked, added, increased, intensified, altered the experience and high.

If I would take 3 strong pills over a night, 4 or 5 hours apart, the 2nd and 3rd would elevate the experience and take the buzz and high up to another level each time.

My head is too muffled from cannabis today to put anything into words on this, or even to examine and assess my memories and experiences to make any sort of intelligent and worthwhile point.

But no way did I ever form the belief that redosing, after say 90 minutes, was a waste or at the most would only extend the duration of the roll.

It just always worked for me. By far my best experiences were had with both MDMA and LSD with strategic re dosing over the night or several days where I could access and creates a totally different headspace and experience which would only be possible with redosing at certain points.

Yeah my heads too shot to examine and express my own thoughts on this. But my own experiences definitely didnt match this general assertion. 

Maybe for me personally, the redosing kept the similar level of buzz and effects going, but my mind and imagination adapted throughout the night to open up new feelings, highs etc.  

MDMA was always a very special and transcendental experience for me and I am a very deeply philosophical and spiritual person. 
I will have to give this some thought and see if I can make a little bit of sense and clarity on the matter in my own mind.


Okay so for my Bowser, I def want to eat the whole pill. Im even thinking of option E now lol- half followed by hald 30 mintes later and just be done with it.

Several advantages to that strategy if I can feel confident it will be tolerated well and smooth enough- firstly, closer dosing of 30 mins vs 60/90 maybe marginally less neurotoxic.

Should hit as hard as I want, but staggered vs the whole pill at once, but still giving most of the effect of the whole thing but smoother.

Or as you suggest, 3/4 followed by the rest 30 mins later.

Actually, I like option E now- half and half 30 minutes later. 
Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## G_Chem

Damn just spent the past few hours catching up lol..

@AutoTripper - I’ve really enjoyed your anecdotes both here and elsewhere.  I can tell our minds work alike, even years later still remembering the minor details of a drug experience.

@psy - Interesting that you say those few states as the two places you’ve found legit product.  These happen to be areas that I like to “hang out” in lol and IMo Midwest has some of the best MDMA in the country, quite possibly in the world.

I’ve yet to see people party like they do where I’m originally from in the Midwest.  That’s my indicator for how good the MDMA is in an area.

-GC


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Thanks man, I have full respect for your views and experience and always appreciate your advice. And that reminds me also, this whole redosing thing with MDMA. (and with Lsd to a point, but less so).
> 
> I really struggle to agree with it. Redosing for me and all others was just normal. It always worked, added, increased, intensified, altered the experience and high.
> 
> If I would take 3 strong pills over a night, 4 or 5 hours apart, the 2nd and 3rd would elevate the experience and take the buzz and high up to another level each time.
> 
> My head is too muffled from cannabis today to put anything into words on this, or even to examine and assess my memories and experiences to make any sort of intelligent and worthwhile point.
> 
> But no way did I ever form the belief that redosing, after say 90 minutes, was a waste or at the most would only extend the duration of the roll.
> 
> It just always worked for me. By far my best experiences were had with both MDMA and LSD with strategic re dosing over the night or several days where I could access and creates a totally different headspace and experience which would only be possible with redosing at certain points.
> 
> Yeah my heads too shot to examine and express my own thoughts on this. But my own experiences definitely didnt match this general assertion.
> 
> Maybe for me personally, the redosing kept the similar level of buzz and effects going, but my mind and imagination adapted throughout the night to open up new feelings, highs etc.
> 
> MDMA was always a very special and transcendental experience for me and I am a very deeply philosophical and spiritual person.
> I will have to give this some thought and see if I can make a little bit of sense and clarity on the matter in my own mind.
> 
> 
> Okay so for my Bowser, I def want to eat the whole pill. Im even thinking of option E now lol- half followed by hald 30 mintes later and just be done with it.
> 
> Several advantages to that strategy if I can feel confident it will be tolerated well and smooth enough- firstly, closer dosing of 30 mins vs 60/90 maybe marginally less neurotoxic.
> 
> Should hit as hard as I want, but staggered vs the whole pill at once, but still giving most of the effect of the whole thing but smoother.
> 
> Or as you suggest, 3/4 followed by the rest 30 mins later.
> 
> Actually, I like option E now- half and half 30 minutes later.
> Thanks for your thoughts.



30/30 sounds good. half n half.


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> @AutoTripper - I’ve really enjoyed your anecdotes both here and elsewhere. I can tell our minds work alike, even years later still remembering the minor details of a drug experience.


Thanks man that means a lot. All you guys n' girls here have been great, so accepting and open and tolerant and friendly. It has been a really refreshing and enjoyable experience all round to join up and feel so welcome and comfortable to simply share my feelings and experiences, without feeling the tiniest bit judged, criticised or questioned, nor patronised at any point.

And I actually look up to all other members here, like you are all my peers and I can learn from every single one of you.  So this forum is actually a really nice place IMO with a high level of maturity, good will and of course stacks of knowlege.

All I can offer is my experiences, so if any insight or enjoyment can come out of that then that makes it all worthwhile.    



epic11 said:


> 30/30 sounds good. half n half.


Yes, after your previous suggestions got me thinking, this plan suddenly appealed and made sense.  As long as the intensity is not overwhelming or physically dangerous (and it really shouldn't be I mean it still a very reasonable and moderate dose for anybody if a strong one for some), then this would be a good compromise and balance wrt my hopes, intentions and reservations.


----------



## AutoTripper

Quick quote to add- I have been having a little fun posting on Reddit, just really seeing what current views, attitudes and experiences are.

Just observing, taking things in, asking questions (shoot, even giving advice, dont tell on me until I get my qualifications lol).  Anyway, here is an interesting reply I just had back to a comment I made somewhere:



"I started taking ecstasy in 1989 here in the UK, like most of my generation I was blown away and my whole life change! Weekend to weekend rave to rave, amazing. Anyway the pills back then were very strong, some would make you throw up you were coming up so hard and rushing. White doves, m25s, mitsubishis to name but a few. But I definitely think they were a mix rather than pure MDMA. They gave you more energy and slightly trippy edge.

I went hard and eventually started burn out, chasing that perfect moment. Then MDMA crystal started popping up, I think it came ftom sassafras pre cursor maybe? It was blissful but always ended up in a puddle of loved up content somewhere!

At the same time pills went to shit so it was MDIZAL all the way!

So I had a break from ecstasy only taking it 4 or 5 times from 2005 to recently.

Few weeks back I took a moncler? Supposed to be around 200mg and wow! It was 1989 all over! Same mix of euphoria bliss and dance energy

The best thing? The come down was not to bad, only once did I shed a tear or two when I saw a puppy in the park. Haha".



Sounds encouraging, he sounds legit and well placed. UK based still Im sure. It does bode slightly better for my Bowsers now.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> Thanks man that means a lot. All you guys n' girls here have been great, so accepting and open and tolerant and friendly. It has been a really refreshing and enjoyable experience all round to join up and feel so welcome and comfortable to simply share my feelings and experiences, without feeling the tiniest bit judged, criticised or questioned, nor patronised at any point.
> 
> And I actually look up to all other members here, like you are all my peers and I can learn from every single one of you.  So this forum is actually a really nice place IMO with a high level of maturity, good will and of course stacks of knowlege.
> 
> All I can offer is my experiences, so if any insight or enjoyment can come out of that then that makes it all worthwhile.
> 
> 
> Yes, after your previous suggestions got me thinking, this plan suddenly made appealed and made sense.  As long as the intensity is not overwhelming or physically dangerous (and it really shouldn't be I mean it still a very reasonable and moderate dose for anybody if a strong one for some), then this would be a good compromise and balance wrt my hopes, intentions and reservations.


take the full pill, its it pure mdma you are fine up to 300mg at once is okay mdma is another ball game in the range 220mg + you will be rolling hard if you have your eyes closed cevs will be like mini lucid dreams. I was 58kg when i use to roll alot. A full pill will make you lose alot of water weight and sweat alot. Pure mdma at high doses is kind of couch locking but pure bliss smoke alot of weed while on its fun. If you are confident in your pill quality take it full. I personally have done E's 3 times in one week at my most abusive streak and came out okay after 3-4 weeks. Once the initial rush hits around 35-45 minutes at that dose it can be overwhemling recommend have a fan on you and deep breaths once you accustom to it after a little bit you will be ok. You might want to spew if you take a full pill at once as the rush its quite intense


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> take the full pill, its it pure mdma you are fine up to 300mg at once is okay mdma is another ball game in the range 220mg + you will be rolling hard if you have your eyes closed cevs will be like mini lucid dreams. I was 58kg when i use to roll alot. A full pill will make you lose alot of water weight and sweat alot. Pure mdma at high doses is kind of couch locking but pure bliss smoke alot of weed while on its fun. If you are confident in your pill quality take it full. I personally have done E's 3 times in one week at my most abusive streak and came out okay after 3-4 weeks. Once the initial rush hits around 35-45 minutes at that dose it can be overwhemling recommend have a fan on you and deep breaths once you accustom to it after a little bit you will be ok. You might want to spew if you take a full pill at once as the rush its quite intense


Thanks a lot bro really appreciate your thoughts and the time to share it thanks.

Yes Ive done much larger doses than 220 ish mg many times and been 100% fine at every moment, but not after a 14 year break and in such a condition physically.

But I am game, Im totally happy about trusting the pill, clean Dutch MDMA.

I have realised that my being unsure about exactly how to dose has held me back mentally from looking more forward to the experience. I kept trying to run it through my head logically, " Blah blah milligrams at...then...no, maybe...and then....mmm, not sure- that would mean...etc etc".

And just now, when I think of the idea of taking the whole pill upfront and Buckling up for a ride- that really excites me. So I favour all at once or 30 minute split, which might help to reduce the need to vomit.

Damn Im excited now. In my mind a bit like I've been grounded and I'm not fully permitted to follow my natural inclinations, which I realize now are maybe within reason and right for me personally.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> Thanks a lot bro really appreciate your thoughts and the time to share it thanks.
> 
> Yes Ive done much larger doses than 220 ish mg many times and been 100% fine at every moment, but not after a 14 year break and in such a condition physically.
> 
> But I am game, Im totally happy about trusting the pill, clean Dutch MDMA.
> 
> I have realised that my being unsure about exactly how to dose has held me back mentally from looking more forward to the experience. I kept trying to run it through my head logically, " Blah blah milligrams at...then...no, maybe...and then....mmm, not sure- that would mean...etc etc".
> 
> And just now, when I think of the idea of taking the whole pill upfront and Buckling up for a ride- that really excites me. So I favour all at once or 30 minute split, which might help to reduce the need to vomit.
> 
> Damn Im excited now. In my mind a bit like I've been grounded and I'm not fully permitted to follow my natural inclinations, which I realize now are maybe within reason and right for me personally.


I also suggest fasting a few hours before taking a large dose of mdma aswell or have a light meal. My first time i ever rolled i only did 100mg and had a good time. But the first time you ever dose above 220+ that roll is something else mdma starts becomming more visual comboed with weed can reach states of unity with the universe and music pure love and bliss. I honestly think people overstate the dangers of dosing mdma at 220-260mg. The problem at festivals these days especially in the uk is kids dropping 2-3 pills at once which is why they die. My fav genre is dutch hardstyle with reverse bass kicks while on mdma


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> I also suggest fasting a few hours before taking a large dose of mdma aswell or have a light meal. My first time i ever rolled i only did 100mg and had a good time. But the first time you ever dose above 220+ that roll is something else mdma starts becomming more visual comboed with weed can reach states of unity with the universe and music pure love and bliss. I honestly think people overstate the dangers of dosing mdma at 220-260mg. The problem at festivals these days especially in the uk is kids dropping 2-3 pills at once which is why they die. My fav genre is dutch hardstyle with reverse bass kicks while on mdma


Yes I know all about the visual and psychedellic aspects of MDMA. It does bemuse me a bit when people talk so decidedly about MDMA not being a psychedelic or hallucinogenic drug which for me it always was at pretty much any dose I would observe an alteration in my perception which was always magnified by weed.

So I know very well first hand how weed contributes to the mix. I certainly plan to vaporize some quality, uplifting marijuana, not least of all because it appears to be remarkably protective via a number of mechanisms. 

But I always used weed with E's and acid and shrooms etc. Not as much with Ketamine. Big conflict there for me. I choose herb any day if I had to pick.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> Yes I know all about the visual and psychedellic aspects of MDMA. It does bemuse me a bit when people talk so decidedly about MDMA not being a psychedelic or hallucinogenic drug which for me it always was at pretty much any dose I would observe an alteration in my perception which was always magnified by weed.
> 
> So I know very well first hand how weed contributes to the mix. I certainly plan to vaporize some quality, uplifting marijuana, not least of all because it appears to be remarkably protective via a number of mechanisms.
> 
> But I always used weed with E's and acid and shrooms etc. Not as much with Ketamine. Big conflict there for me. I choose herb any day if I had to pick.


The night when i consumed 600mg of mdma 300mg intial dose 4 hours later another 300mg while the peaks overlapped for a hour i thought i was a dead man goner as i laid their with the music going floored on the bed with my eyes closed the closed eye visuals were very life like dreamy going through random scenes and places. MDMA is truly powerful and lead to a state of unity comparable to shrooms and acid after smoking alot of weed


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> The night when i consumed 600mg of mdma 300mg intial dose 4 hours later another 300mg while the peaks overlapped for a hour i thought i was a dead man goner as i laid their with the music going floored on the bed with my eyes closed the closed eye visuals were very life like dreamy going through random scenes and places. MDMA is truly powerful and lead to a state of unity comparable to shrooms and acid after smoking alot of weed


That's a heavy dose. I have dosed up to 0.5 g pure MDMA initial dose and always been fine. 300 mg twice is like double dropping 2 old skool high strenght pills twice.

150mg or just above being about a good bet for a lot of the most memorable pills of yesteryear.

The White Rolexes at the 2000 Exodus August festival, Im certain they were at least 150 mg and the best ecstasy could offer. I double dropped them twice, only half hour between.  For at least 600 mg. It was a heavy buzz, really carried you away.

A guy who I just met at that same time- he trble dropped them. Man he looked FUCKED! Like you just dont see people look like that these days, at least I havent seen images of ecstasy distorted and altered faces like that in a long time.

The 2 of us were so out of it. We got lost and had to be found and escorted around lol. It was interesting, as he did 3 up front, I did 2 and 2 more 30 minutes later.


So in a way, we were kind of equal in intesnsity. His comeup was heavier but my double drop overtook after all kicked in and his feet started ro touch the ground again.


You know, back on the whole harm reduction, education theme. Which was almost entirely absent then- those August bank holiday festivals, we partied 3 nights and days solid, only a few hours sleep, 3 days MDMA and Lsd plus copious ganja, of the highest strenght then too, original Skunk.  

But- it was BAKING hot summer. We literally dripped with sweat all day (and night.)

So no wonder I ended up with significant brain impairment and serotonergic damage, due to the prolonged excessive heat.

These days I have an abnomally low body temperature. I cant sleep without hat and scarf 365 nights a year (2 hats all winter lol), about 6 shirts, jumpers, thick fleece, long johns, double socks, double duvet AND 2 blankets.

Its extremely abnormal but my body temp is so low. Partly due to underweight and lack of food, but principally due to the nervous system beong messed up.

So the thought of MDMA warming me up a bit is an appealing one. It may even trigger an alteration in my nervous system so that my body regulates heat better.

When I was taking MDMA very very frequently in earlt 2000's, like several times per week for long period (years) I did noticd that my body temperature seemed to be raised at all times in general.  I remember really noticing it and telling people how I felt there was a link to the MDMA and it had re-regulated my body temp.

I think this is plausaible. So a part of me is hoping it may be able to shake a litte sense into my stupid nervous system, on the matter of temp regulation.


----------



## indigoaura

Just saying hello. I have no relevant updates, unfortunately. 

I do think it is interesting to read everyone's posts and ponder how we all viewed safety when we initially started rolling. In the USA when I started rolling, Dancesafe was the popular organization to follow. They had a little slideshow that showed how MDMA impacted the brain. The recommendation at that time was that you wait one month between rolls. Other advice included not to mix different pills, and to stick to one re-dose. I never heard that you needed to wait three months in between rolls. That just was not the common harm reduction advice at that time.

So, for me, I can say that I never rolled back to back in one weekend or even within one week. I think the shortest break I ever had was 3 weeks, and I felt SO uncomfortable about rolling one week early. Most of the time I waited one month. I usually only did two pills, but as time went on, I would sometimes do 3. There were a couple of rarer incidents where I had more pills than that. Usually, those were parties or some other all night event. 

I tried to turn on my old desktop PC to get a document that actually lists every pill I ever ate, how many I ate etc. However, apparently, my PC no longer works. So, now I have to have it repaired before I can access the document.

I may roll again sooner rather than later. For me, it is all about timing with other stuff I have going on in my life. I start a new job in August, and I don't want to roll too close to that. I probably will not have the mental space to do it in August or September either. So, if I want to do it at any point this summer, it really needs to be nowish.


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 Forgot to post congrats! It is very encouraging to read posts from other long time MDMA users that have found decent product again. Gives me some hope that I will eventually stumble upon the right product and dosage to get the experience I want. I think your 150 mg approach is what I am going to try next.


----------



## G_Chem

So my brother tried a Blue Fortnight last night, supposed to be a good Dutch import.  He called me this morning going on about how hard it hit him, and how he was blown away by them.  He took a half and was completely floored, when lately he’s been consuming more than he should of other legit product.

But then I started asking him some questions.. How was the energy? He said he could have fallen asleep despite the intensity.  How was the love/social interaction? He said it was more introverted.

By the end of the conversation he realized where I was going with it and concluded that indeed they may be different than what we’re normally used to.  That said he wants to buy more.  My brother is the type to like intense downer-esque experiences so take that with a grain of salt, dude drinks like a fish and loves K.

I plan to grab one for myself to finally make the comparison.

In a nutshell, he was kicked in the teeth by the intensity but didn’t have energy or feel like socializing.  Sounds like MehDMA to me but willing to try.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I always fall asleep on MehDMA, even when the come up is as intense as fuck. In fact, the harder the hit, the sooner I'm flat out.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea it’s hard for me to imagine someone with intense eye wiggles and jaw clenching falling asleep on the dance floor.  He blamed it on lack of sleep but his experience seems to mimic what you guys are talking about.

It’s funny too anytime I bring up this topic outside of BL it’s met with extreme resistance.  People just can’t accept it.

I’ll report back once we get some more “experiments” done with these fortnights . Also got my festival coming up soon so may have to wait, I’m not potentially ruining one of my nights with that shit lol.

-GC


----------



## Kaden_Nite

G_Chem said:


> It’s funny too anytime I bring up this topic outside of BL it’s met with extreme resistance. People just can’t accept it.



You can grasp why though.. surely. A mass produced mdma-imitator so chemically similar that it has flown under the radar of every lab in the world, for years, and the only_ 'evidence'_ of this phenomena are a small but devoted group in a drug forum, who probably make up less than .00001% of the mdma-consuming population, insisting that there is a reality to something they are completely unable to prove.

That's why people are hesitant to listen, because it sounds crazy. Really conspiratorial.

What we do know: there is a lot of cut MDMA on the market. Not everything sold as MDMA actually is, and corners can often be cut in the manufacturing process (unwashed, undistilled shit full of questionable synthesis byproducts).

Just reading through some recent posts here, I have two comments:

1. MDMA is not 'supposed' to do what you want or expect it to. In my own experience, I would say that effects are more consistent with MDMA than my experiences with more _typical_ psychedelics (like mushrooms, LSD, DOC etc.) but there is still a lot of set/setting/personal variables to be taken into account.

If you're relying on a drug to provide you with a good time, good mood, shit loads of energy and confidence etc. - Don't be surprised when the experience falls short.

2. A lot of what goes around as 'Sass' isn't made from safrole. A lot of 'Dutch' MDMA is not even European, and a lot of the 225mg import presses are actually nowhere near that. The high-dose Euro presses on e-data can be like promo batches IMO. They don't necessarily represent what you are getting if you purchase that press.

Copycat batches of popular presses are very common.

Be well


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

You make some valid points there Kaden, but you've got to admit that mass production of any product usually comes with an associated reduction in quality - even though the quality becomes more standardised.

Also, the majority of people taking MDMA these days are too young to have experienced the 'MagicDMA' that our 'small but devoted group' keep banging on about as the norm, so can only make comparisons with what they're used to. Their 'magic' may not equate to our 'magic.

I would be willing to accept all the tolerance, age, nostalgia, fried brains, set & setting arguments if there were no reports from us saying "Yes, the good shit does still exist". Although these experiences seem to be increasingly few and far between, they do still happen.

And that's the mystery....


----------



## Kaden_Nite

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> You've got to admit that mass production of any product usually comes with an associated reduction in quality



I think it can go either way. Some outfits will take pride in what they produce, others won't.

I will say that, on the occasions I would see crystal MDMA (as in, stuff that hadn't been pressed) in the early to mid 2000s, it looked clear or sparkly white. Sassafras smell was common. Very high quality.

Now I see all colours of the rainbow with a range of smells. Acetone often washes a decent amount away. Not the best sign.



> Also, the majority of people taking MDMA these days are too young to have experienced the 'MagicDMA' that our 'small but devoted group' keep banging on about as the norm, so can only make comparisons with what they're used to. Their 'magic' may not equate to our 'magic'.



True, but there must be something to today's MDMA because it's as popular as ever.

With all the lab testing and online reviews that consumers now have access to though (all signs generally pointing to high purity MDMA), doesn't it make you question more what you may have been having back in the day, rather than 'what is wrong with the MDMA available today'?

So many variables. Times when MDMA may have been high quality, popular and abundant in EU/UK, the US may have had the complete opposite.

Times when Australia may have been getting safrole MD, alternate synths were being trialled elsewhere. It seems like everyone who has posted in this thread has a different idea about when the MDMA turned sour (somewhere between the late eighties and 2015 if that narrows it down).



> I would be willing to accept all the tolerance, age, nostalgia, fried brains, set & setting arguments if there were no reports from us saying "Yes, the good shit does still exist".



Good stuff certainly still exists. I do believe all of those other things play a role in these reports of certain drugs not being the same now as they were back in whatever era.

I had all the fun in the universe when I was really into MDMA, I feel like it would be impossible to replicate that now, for many more reasons than those listed.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Kaden_Nite said:


> I think it can go either way. Some outfits will take pride in what they produce, others won't.
> 
> I will say that, on the occasions I would see crystal MDMA (as in, stuff that hadn't been pressed) in the early to mid 2000s, it looked clear or sparkly white. Sassafras smell was common. Very high quality.
> 
> Now I see all colours of the rainbow with a range of smells. Acetone often washes a decent amount away. Not the best sign.
> 
> 
> 
> True, but there must be something to today's MDMA because it's as popular as ever.
> 
> With all the lab testing and online reviews that consumers now have access to though (all signs generally pointing to high purity MDMA), doesn't it make you question more what you may have been having back in the day, rather than 'what is wrong with the MDMA available today'?
> 
> So many variables. Times when MDMA may have been high quality, popular and abundant in EU/UK, the US may have had the complete opposite.
> 
> Times when Australia may have been getting safrole MD, alternate synths were being trialled elsewhere. It seems like everyone who has posted in this thread has a different idea about when the MDMA turned sour (somewhere between the late eighties and 2015 if that narrows it down).
> 
> 
> 
> Good stuff certainly still exists. I do believe all of those other things play a role in these reports of certain drugs not being the same now as they were back in whatever era.
> 
> I had all the fun in the universe when I was really into MDMA, I feel like it would be impossible to replicate that now, for many more reasons than those listed.


australian sydney  labs use pmk and have been since the mid 2000's same with the dutch they use pmk and bmk and make mdma in the hundreds kgs batches. MDMA can be pretty dam sedating at a high dose above 220mg it floors you but you should be feeling mad love for everything and everyone. MDA is more stimulating and better for the dance floor. Alot of people seem to forget in the 90s pressed pills had Amazing md in it also cut with speed to keep that dance on


----------



## indigoaura

Indigoaura broadcasting live...

I know...I know...about the 6 week break thing. Those early 2000s rules are hard let go of sometimes...

Same stuff I did last time, but I took 155 mg at 10 pm. Last ate a meal around 3 pm, but I did have some cake at some point. Yay cake!

No eye dilation at 10:15 pm.

Went outside around 10:20 and the breeze felt really nice (not a common observation on a hot evening down here).

It is 10:30 now. 

We'll see if I stick to the live updates this time or if I disappear until tomorrow.


----------



## indigoaura

Holy shit...coming up in the shower...155 mg is the way to go for sure.


----------



## indigoaura

Eyes showing signs of dilation at 10:48 pm


----------



## indigoaura

So, in true pro-social fashion, I feel compelled to say how much I appreciate all of you as well as this community. This thread, specifically, has really been a great source of insight and support for several years now. So, thank you.


----------



## indigoaura

11:13 pm. I am definitely rolling and feeling good. The 155 mg got me over the hump where I usually would feel like I needed more to reach this state.


----------



## G_Chem

Aww shit ya!! I kept saying you needed more  lol.  Glad you got rolling good. Appreciate you too!!! Let us know how it finishes out.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I took an 88 mg redose at11:30. My eyes are dilated, but now to the point that all the color is gone. Feel great. Pass the Vicks.


----------



## G_Chem

Eeeee!  I’m excited lol. Was this that good looking crystal that you got most recent?

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Well, it is 5:30 am now and I am eating some dinner (breakfast?) I will post my full review sometime tomorrow, but for now I will just say that the initial dose and the place where you reach from the initial dose seems super important. For years, I have been not quite getting there off dose 1, and then taking a second dose that never seems to get me there either. But, the 155 mg to start really changed the game.


----------



## G_Chem

It definitely is.  You gotta reach that spot off the initial dose, the booster is simply to extend the duration another hour or two.

I’m gonna assume you still being up at 5:30am is a good sign!

-GC


----------



## jose ribas da silva

what can we expect from capitalism? Quality does not matter if there is demand and the profit is guaranteed


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem Yes, this is the semi-clear crystal that I uploaded pics of. This is the exact same stuff I had 6 weeks ago, but the experience 6 weeks ago never got off the ground in the same way as last night's experience.


----------



## AutoTripper

@indigoaura just to say I really appreciate you too along with every member here         -actually you were my first "official" friend here, I missed you when you weren't around, but it's okay Im no longer the scared kid in the playground and I've got other friends now lol!

No joke though, it has been nothing but a pleasure to be a member here recently. 
Real good to hear you had a much better experience this time, and especially the concept of the magic being in the dose in this case.

And bizarrely, your total dosage practically matches my Bowsers (215-230mg).

As you have seen I've been in a dilemna about how to dose it.
I keep swinging. Im a bit shy about all at once, which may be a little overwhelming due to my rather fragile condition more than anything otherwise I don't think I would hesitate.

Half and half 60-90 mins apart was the OG plan.  But I since gravitated towards 30 mins between 2 halves. Just to stagger the comeup slightly. I still like this idea.

But now you have me thinking again, maybe the majority first, like 150mg worth, the rest 60 mins later. 
I will have to think now. Thank you for presenting me with yet more First World Problems haha! ?

Anyway, all you folk here are great and so interesting and entertaining. Im doing my best to investigate this topic around. I keep finding really solid legit old skoolers who report exactly the same phenomenon with the modern MDMA and who have not heard any mention about this but can't get their heads around it and are desperate for answers and help.  

I have been directing all potentially interested people here to this thread with a general introduction to the topic. Just this afternoon I met a really interesting guy on YouTube who is very interested in this and whose own personal account was of great interest to me and also do this thread here.

I can see us continually drawing in more and more people who have experienced this issue with invaluable experience and insight to share so I can see this snowball growing continuously.


Meanwhile..... @indigoaura hope your dinnerfast went down well and you have had a pleasant and smooth come down.


----------



## Le Junk

I just want to clarify something here. If your pupils do not dilate all the way to the outer edge of your eyeball leaving only a microscopic sliver of color left, there is something wrong with your ecstasy. This is not something that is open for debate. I had read someone earlier saying their pupils didn’t dilate all the way to the outer edge but that all of positive effects were there in shitloads.  I’m afraid that’s just a case of wishful thinking.  We all like to think that what we’re doing is the real deal or that this time is going to be different, but the reality is that pupils dilating all the way to the outer edge is one of the non-negotiable visual markers associated with real MDMA.  The old school ecstasy that I still have access to along with all those years of real ecstasy on the streets from 1985-2008, dilated pupils to the outer edge was just a given trait that happened every single time without any excuses.  So please, let’s narrow the discussion to what you have is the either the real deal (pupils dilated all the way to the outer edge) or something else entirely.


----------



## AutoTripper

Le Junk said:


> I just want to clarify something here. If your pupils do not dilate all the way to the outer edge of your eyeball leaving only a microscopic sliver of color left, there is something wrong with your ecstasy. This is not something that is open for debate. I had read someone earlier saying their pupils didn’t dilate all the way to the outer edge but that all of positive effects were there in shitloads, but I’m afraid that’s just a case of wishful thinking.  We all like to think that what we’re doing is the real deal or that this time is going to be different, but the reality is that pupils dilated all the way to the outer edge is one of the non-negotiable visual markers associated with real MDMA.  The old school ecstasy that I still have access to along with all those years of real ecstasy on the streets from 1985-2008,  dilated pupils to the outer edge were just a given trait every single time without any excuse.  So please, let’s narrow the discussion to what you have is the either the real deal (dilated to the outer edge pupils) or something else entirely.


Yes, indeed, I have kept this right in mind. In my investigations, I see many so called "saucers" shots, especially on Reddit. Mostly very young'ns.

People commenting saying "Wow I wish I had suacers like that."

And I think about your insistence on this point as I examine the photos. Enlarged they are yes, but you can easily tell the eye colour still. There is a gap.

Oh man, I wish I had made more precise observation of this when I had ample chance. I know these supposed saucer shots dont impress me at all.

Also, people on proper ecstasy look WIRED, like somewhere else. The eyes could never hide the altered state, switched-on ness.  I havent seen that magic altered consciousness appearance, just an intoxicated, uninhibited, half merry glazed look mostly.

My own eyes are dark brown, so it would not have been so noticeable to me just how much of an outer ring was left because my eyes would have appeared as black sources even more so but I'm sure they probably were a lot of the time.


----------



## indigoaura

@Le Junk I recall exactly what you are saying. I even have old photos that I took of myself while rolling showing the pupils dilated to the outer edge. Last night I took a photo as well, and I can try to zoom in and crop it so I can show the amount of eye dilation I had last night. Never to the full edge of the pupil, but definitely noticeable.

For me though, in what has been a barren wasteland of product, seeing any eye dilation at all is a step in the right direction. In your experience, would a very low dose of MDMA still produce the dilation to the outer edge?

@AutoTripper I was pretty devoted to chronicling my drug use and experiences. I had an 8mm camera. There are loads of tapes. You are absolutely right, the people rolling in those old videos are obviously WIRED. The way their jaw is set is totally different, their eyes are HUGE. There used to be concern about going out in public while rolling because of how fucked up you looked. That is not something I have seen in a decade at least, on anyone's face, even a new user.

What I currently suspect is that the crystal I have is infused with something to make the crystals bigger. I would guess that it is maybe 60% product. Of that 60%...how much is MDMA? I still have enough left to send it off to Energy Control and try to get an answer to that part of the question.

For now, here is my report:

Ate lunch at 3 pm, followed by some cake later on.

10:00 pm - Took 155 mg in a vegetarian capsule.
10:30 pm - hopped in the shower

During the shower, I came up pretty hard. Water started to feel really good, and I felt like I needed to sit down at several points. I had some Vicks and that was an amazing throwback. By the time I got out of the shower at 10:45 pm, I was feeling really good.

10:48 pm - I began to notice significant eye dilation in the mirror.

11:30 pm - I wanted to do the re-dose at the right time, so this is when I took 88 mg. Not really because I felt like I needed it, but because I did not want to wait too long.

From 11:30 pm until 1:15 am I was hanging out on the couch, snuggling with my partner, listening to music, and talking. More pro-social feelings and connection than I have had in a long time. I was having a lot of positive feelings and thoughts about other people, and felt very open to my partner.

At 12:15 am I checked my pupils again and they were quite large. Hard to define exactly how much color was around the edge, but it was a relatively small amount.

At 1:15 am, my partner and I were going to move into the sex phase of the evening and I took another 82 mg. For me, the second re-dose is needed for the sexual phase of the evening.

Sidenote: my partner no longer does MDMA. He had what may have been a long term comedown back around 2010, as well as numerous health issues (auto immune, allergies digestive etc). So, he sticks to mushrooms/alcohol now. He tried the MehDMA once back in 2017 and was so underwhelmed. He told me in no uncertain terms that it was NOT MDMA and he did not know why I had kept doing it. That was kind of my wakeup call, because after a super lengthy break, he should not have had the same tolerance as me. That was when I really internalized that something was WAY not right with my product.

Around 2 am, I felt like I was coming down a bit, which is weird with that 1:15 am re-dose. By 3:15, I definitely felt more normalized and sober (although there were residual effects). Partner and I continued to have sex off an on until after 5, and when I was having a snack at 5:30 I still felt some residual effects. Went to sleep with no issue. Feel fine today, and have a bit of that pleasant afterglow feeling.

Score

Euphoria: 5
Empathy: 5
Energy: 2
Eye Wiggles: 1
Pupil Dilation: 6
Jaw Clenching: 1
Body High: 5
Sexuality: 4

Overall - 6

Someone commented on here awhile back that it was unlikely that there was a massive problem with MDMA and we are the only people who are onto it or talking about it. But, I think that is deceptive. We are not the only people talking about it. I know that among my group of friends, everyone has commented on it. But, nobody is motivated enough to go searching for answers online. I would guess it is the same with many long-term users. For those who are still using MDMA now, who also used it in the 90s/2000s, most people probably write it off as tolerance. When you think about it, the whole concept of "losing the magic" is a perfect cover for any unscrupulous manufacturers who want to sell shit product.  People who know better will shrug it off, and people who don't know better will think it is the real deal because they never had anything else.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> Yes, indeed, I have kept this right in mind. In my investigations, I see many so called "saucers" shots, especially on Reddit. Mostly very young'ns.
> 
> People commenting saying "Wow I wish I had suacers like that."
> 
> And I think about your insistence on this point as I examine the photos. Enlarged they are yes, but you can easily tell the eye colour still. There is a gap.
> 
> Oh man, I wish I had made more precise observation of this when I had ample chance. I know these supposed saucer shots dont impress me at all.
> 
> Also, people on proper ecstasy look WIRED, like somewhere else. The eyes could never hide the altered state, switched-on ness.  I havent seen that magic altered consciousness appearance, just an intoxicated, uninhibited, half merry glazed look mostly.
> 
> My own eyes are dark brown, so it would not have been so noticeable to me just how much of an outer ring was left because my eyes would have appeared as black sources even more so but I'm sure they probably were a lot of the time.


yeah every time i roll on my pressies my eyes are just pure black dilated looking super wired if anybody looked at me they would be able to tell straight away i was fucked up.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Someone commented on here awhile back that it was unlikely that there was a massive problem with MDMA and we are the only people who are onto it or talking about it


I think maybe we could attempt to estasblish a little more credibility to this cause if we suggest that - This is the only PLACE people are talking about this. And nothing wrong with that. This just happens to be where the main discussion is at right now and more and more people are joining in as time goes on I'm sure there will be many more and we will have a much larger subjective database.

Also, I can only go with my gut of course but I'm not sure that any of this has any dishonest or devious, corrupt origin or agenda. Not that I thought you implied that. I just feel it all came about as an unfortunate accident as a number of things changed, but I sure could be wrong.


TripSitterNZ said:


> f anybody looked at me they would be able to tell straight away i was fucked up.


Oh, don't fear, I have never seen you and I can tell clear as day that you are fucked up. ?
Just kidding bro. Really appreciate all of your own contributions here as well, I know your views have been strongly disputed but I respect your opinion and am taking in everything you share as I try to assimilate all points of view and experience.


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper Glad I was able to offer friendship in your early days on BL! Overall, been thinking about your unique situation. I am inclined to think you should do 75% of that tablet up front, and save the 25% for the re-dose. Based on this recent experience I had, you are likely to waste your product if you don't cross the threshold on the initial dose.

Consider the worst case scenario for each option. If you take too little, you are likely to never reach the height that you want to reach. The second 50% of the pill may not help that much, and then that is your experience. Subpar. 

If you take too much, you might come up too hard. Maybe you would get a little sick. But, then you would level out into the experience that you want.

I think between those two options, you are better off erring on the side of doing too much. You are not a new and inexperienced user, you are not going to be too shocked by an intense ride.


----------



## indigoaura

So, out of curiosity, how much actual MDMA do you think would have been in a pill like this?









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #879 - Crocodile, 879
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




This is a pill that I actually had at the time. I recall thinking that it was not the best I had, but was not bad.

Here is another one I had:








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #772 - Moon (Pink), 772
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




What were my starting doses if I was taking one pill? Obviously, the whole pill is not MDMA. How much of the pill was likely to be filler?


----------



## Le Junk

@indigoaura  Yes, even with low doses the pupils will dilate all the way to the outer edge.  Pills back in the late 90s were averaging between 60 to 80 mg per pill and just one of those pills would dilate the pupils all the way to the outer edge.  

Your comment about old schoolers writing today’s stuff off as just a tolerance issue and new schoolers not knowing the difference that they’re doing trash sums it up perfectly my friend.

Le Junk


----------



## indigoaura

Totally forgot to use this chart in my post. I will add it to that post as well. Looking at it like this...it does not seem so great. I am about to make a new thread to discuss hormones/drugs in more detail. It is relevant to this conversation, but also sort of its own conversation. Basically, depending on where I am in my cycle I am going to have fluctuating serotonin/dopamine levels. I personally find that doing MDMA around day 5-10 is ideal. Yesterday's roll was day 19. Not where I would place a roll for maximum impact. There is also a complex birth control issue...

Anyway...if you want to read, I will post all that in another thread.

ROLLDATE 06-22-19

Euphoria: 5
Empathy: 5
Energy: 2
Eye Wiggles: 1
Pupil Dilation: 6
Jaw Clenching: 1
Body High: 5
Sexuality: 4


----------



## AutoTripper

@indigoaura thank you for those food for thoughts on dosage.
And you know what, Im persuaded on the basis of your latest experimenting. 
I fully agree with that logic about being better to overshoot slightly than undershoot.

And 3/4 makes additional sense too. Hesitant about all at once, 3/4 is close enough for nearly full whack. Also makes for less anxiety about the redose, being smaller it seems less consequential and more of a formality.

I think I would aim to redose sooner than you did yourself last night though.
I wonder how your experience might have differed if you had redosed sooner, like after 1 hour?

It may have been even more elevated and overall made an even better impression.
I mean, your whole experience was boosted by a smallish initial dosage increase.
Maybe it could be stepped up another level with a sooner redose, and possibly a slightly larger dose like 100mg.

Okay Im gonna right out guess on the Crocodile pill. From 2000 to 2005 at least, I am quite confident that pills were commonly well above 100mg.  Not as an average, lots of crap was about as always. 
Dont ask me how or why I believe that, I am confident though.

If a pill seemed very good, I would assume over 100 mg.  At 280 mg total weight, at least half the croc must be filler. I would suggest 80 to 110 mg MDMA, as a total guess, as you say they weren't the best, but dont sound like the worst either.

Similar logic for the Moon. 264 mg. Again I would guess 80-110 mg, unless they were particularly strong, in which case maybe 120 mg upwards, which was a pretty good dose for OG MDMA. 

Definitely not your 155 mg dose last night though. But as you suspect, it may be buffed up somehow and therefore lower.  This is mostly intuitive guessing of course, guided by subconscious calculation, rationalisation and head-compiled data analysis.  I have always had a knack for bizarrely accurate intuitive guess calculations though.


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper 

I have always been a bit confused by the ideal re-dose schedule. Everyone says to re-dose after an hour. But, are they talking about an hour after you ingested or an hour after you came up? I ended up re-dosing less than an hour after the come-up, but 1.5 hours after I ingested. It is hard to gauge, especially if you are worried about getting sick on the come-up and possibly losing some of the product.

Next time I work with this supply, I am upping the initial dose again. Although, my schedule is pretty booked for quite some time, so I will not be able to experiment again until September/October at least or maybe later.


----------



## G_Chem

Typically filler on average ranges from 50-66%.  Occasionally you’ll have some interesting pressers that’ll do minimal filler, or the opposite with it being all filler.

You can guess those pills were probably 90-140mg.

As for redosing.  I tell people as soon as they feel ready to stomach it, this is usually 90min.

Indigo I wouldn’t wager dosages from back then would be equally effective for you unfortunately.  I think 160mg is a good dosage for you but it’d be interesting to see what the purity is of this particular batch.  I’d bet it’s actually fairly pure product too, at least 90+%.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem What do you make of the fact that my friend put this stuff on a hot plate and evaporated moisture from it? He claimed that quite a bit of the product evaporated. Interestingly, what was left was a fluffy white crystal.


----------



## AutoTripper

@G_Chem easy bro. Interesting how you applied a similar logic to guestimating those crocodile/moon MDMA quantities.  Is this evidence that great minds really do think alike? Hehe. 

Except you allowed for a larger range. I suggested 80 mg lowest, 90 yourself which I think is more realistic actually, but surely a pretty decent pill back then was at least 80 minimum, so just covering bases really.

I do think in all likelihood however that they probably contains at least 100 mg. 125 mg upwards would be considered really top quality pills and from what @indigoaura said briefly about them, it doesnt sound like they could be as much as 140 mg, my gut still says 100-120 at most. Not bad though.

Thanks for all your assistance and sounding board @indigoaura helping me consider various dosage approaches. This is an interesting aspect to MDMA for me now. Back then, dosages were rarely known or even spoken of.

The modern culture is much more centred around knowing the exact dosages to begin with, theoretically at least and calculating accurately from there to find out optimum personal approach.

So our heads assume we are competent to prescribe ourselves the most suitable, effective and worthwhile dose but I have to doubt our competence on this individually and collectively but I can see this aspect getting more attention and examination over time.


Okay, just came to post a link. I sent an email to lizard Labs on Friday asking for the exact ingredients of their 1plsd 150ug micro pellets which are like your modern day legal lab grade microdot.

I acquired One micro pellets to see how it might affect my allergies because I will be able to purchase more of these from Holland after the German ban comes into place.

My hope is that if I can tolerate their micro pellets then I can keep reloading my recreational stock of 1plsd, which I would like to keep a long-term supply of for my mum and myself to microdose with which we are going to begin soon.

The Dutch Lizards are great people it seems. "Lizzy" (lol) always resplies to me enquirues in such a friendly manner and with a perfect answer for my question each time.

I wasn't going to post this but I might as well here is what she told me on it this morning:



"Thank you for your enquiry.

The ingredients are the following: 1P-LSD, MCC, colloidal silicon dioxide, sodium starch glycolate, sodium strearyl fumarate, E129. All ingredients can be found in our catalogues, which are available for download here: https://ufile.io/h6o9surk or https://anonfile.com/r0X9A9tbna/LL_PDF_Catalogues_zip

Kind regards,

Lizzy".


So, no sugar as such for a start which is a really good thing because sugar is the worst thing in the world for causing might have normal excessive mucus production in any form whatsoever especially concentrated sugars.

I looked up one of the ingredients:

"What is it?

Sodium starch glycolate is the sodium salt of carboxymethyl ether. Starch glycolates are of rice, potato, wheat or corn origin. Sodium starch glycoate is a white to off-white, tasteless, odorless, relatively free flowing powder.

Sodium starch glycolate is used as a pharmaceutical grade dissolution excipient for tablets and capsules. Sodium starch glycolate absorbs water rapidly, resulting in swelling which leads to rapid disintegration of tablets and granules. It is used as a disintegrant, a suspending agent and as a gelling agent. Without a disintegrant, tablets may not dissolve appropriately and may effect the amount of active ingredient absorbed, thereby decreasing effectiveness."









						Sodium Starch Glycolate (Inactive Ingredient) - Drugs.com
					

Learn about Sodium Starch Glycolate and find medications that contain this inactive ingredient.




					www.drugs.com
				




I thought this was interesting because it could relate directly to our issue here with MDMA pills and binders and possibly an interaction between any ingredients which are or are not used in combination with certain binders which can affect the disintegration and absorption of the MDMA.

I mean there is no question that whoever is manufacturing these pills will not be applying the same level of professional expertise and knowledge and precision as the lizards with their micro pellets.

So to me this is strongly suggested that at least part of the problem certainly with the MDMA pressed pills could be related to these factors and the way the pills are formulated in this regard. It makes a heck of a lot of sense to me anyway.


----------



## G_Chem

@indigoaura - Hmmm Interesting, how much evaporated out exactly? I wouldn’t put it past chemists to try and lock a lot of water into the crystal matrix.  This probably wouldn’t be easy to detect as an “impurity” either.

@AutoTripper - I provided a wider range simply cuz we don’t know, like I was saying press filler can vary wildly.  In the end it’s just a guesstimate.  Pills are more standardized now then they were then.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem He put 54 mg on the hot plate and was left with only 34 mg. So, only 63% remained a solid after the evaporation was complete. He suspects it was re-crystallized with water or something else.


----------



## G_Chem

Ahh I didn’t realize this.  It is possible this is the reason you required more.  The fact he was working with such a small amount id factor in a few mg lost to mechanical processes.  Even then we’d be less than 70%.  There’s also a few other factors, like how accurate the scale was, how hot he got the hot plate (could of vaporized a small portion).  But no matter what there was definitely a fair amount of some volatile substance in there.

This could just be a batch of really pure product that also had water added in.  Trapping water into the fused crystalline MDMA HCl may be one way they add weight that can then not be easily detected once lab tested.

In three months you should eat some “dried” product and see how that goes.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem He said he used a very low heat setting, so I would assume it was not vaporized, but yet, some may have been lost during the overall process. It would make sense though, because the last time I did it I started with around 135 mg, but that would have only been 94.5 mg if it was 70% MDMA. The 155 I started with this time would have had me closer to an ideal starting dose at 108.5 mg.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to wash and purify this product with acetone then try to re-crystalize?


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> 11:13 pm. I am definitely rolling and feeling good. The 155 mg got me over the hump where I usually would feel like I needed more to reach this state.


Definitely got me MORE where i wanted to be, but still not quite. Im going 175 next time. haha

This water theory is holding more "weight" for me now with the new notes. Can water truly be put into the crystals to make its weight higher without adding impurities? Is this true or far-fetched?


indigoaura said:


> Totally forgot to use this chart in my post. I will add it to that post as well. Looking at it like this...it does not seem so great. I am about to make a new thread to discuss hormones/drugs in more detail. It is relevant to this conversation, but also sort of its own conversation. Basically, depending on where I am in my cycle I am going to have fluctuating serotonin/dopamine levels. I personally find that doing MDMA around day 5-10 is ideal. Yesterday's roll was day 19. Not where I would place a roll for maximum impact. There is also a complex birth control issue...
> 
> Anyway...if you want to read, I will post all that in another thread.
> 
> ROLLDATE 06-22-19
> 
> Euphoria: 5
> Empathy: 5
> Energy: 2
> Eye Wiggles: 1
> Pupil Dilation: 6
> Jaw Clenching: 1
> Body High: 5
> Sexuality: 4



These numbers are weak, rookie numbers. You're gonna need to pump those up. (sorry, just quoting wolf of wall st.) lmao

The eye wiggs being only a 1 is shocking to me.

Thanks for the report. Some notes about my roll. 155 while it felt much better, still in the end, i dont think was enough for me. Thats also funny, cause i blacked out a bit of the night, which tells me shit was HITTING. Strange.


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 Yeah, I found the overall lack of eye wiggles and jaw clenching to be odd. I will also be trying a higher dose at some point in the future. I don't know enough about chemistry to know if you can add water to a crystal. However, my friend insists it can be done to make a larger crystal. It would explain a lot. I am curious if it will even show up on a lab report though.


----------



## Nicomorphinist

I really hate to hear this -- I used to take pill-tested E with dihydrocodeine and nitrazepam as a writing aid and even got Basson Brownies, capsules of about 135 mg of pure MDMA produced from a metric tonne of E made by the South African government which disappeared into the unsupervised drug user economy as the National Party government wound down in the early 1990s, on occasion.


----------



## indigoaura

Definitely feeling queasy today. Mentally, feel fine, but have that nauseous dizzy thing going on. So weird.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Definitely feeling queasy today. Mentally, feel fine, but have that nauseous dizzy thing going on. So weird.


I wonder if maybe your own nausea is partly related to hormones? It must altsr things in the days afterwards.


----------



## indigoaura

It is definitely possible, @AutoTripper. I am trying to unravel the interplay between hormones/neurotransmitters more so I can understand it better.


----------



## indigoaura

This popped up when I followed another link posted in my hormone thread. It is interesting to this conversation, because it talks about the increase in dosage and increase in deaths occurring with more modern ecstasy. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/exkzj4/why-are-young-british-girls-dying-from-mdma


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> This popped up when I followed another link posted in my hormone thread. It is interesting to this conversation, because it talks about the increase in dosage and increase in deaths occurring with more modern ecstasy. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/exkzj4/why-are-young-british-girls-dying-from-mdma


Just reading it now. Very interesting as I have been thinking subconsciously about all these frequent MDMA death headlines all over the world in recent years.

I mean, in terms of impact, its mute as hell now. Just another headline. Compared to some particularly famous and rupturing cases in the early years.

Just so common place now. It does make me think. But that isn't the point anyway. I was trying to make sense in my head of this current occurrence rate and the modern dosages. And in direct relation to what all you guys are saying here crucially.

As in- death risk is correlated to dosage, but is it also related to the modern (problematic )MDMA and dosage?

The main aspects of the article is interesting as well the fact that MDMA is generally harsher on the female body and brain. Looking back, I can see clearly how females always appeared to suffer more from MDMA use and would be far more easily deterred from continuing using it .

As well as generally much less keen and interested in it than most of the males I knew over time, which all fits with the picture I already had from general observation and memory, without having ever really thought about it.


----------



## AutoTripper

@indigoaura I think here is a brief user's subjective report on one of your 2002 yellow crocodiles I thought may be of interest. 6th report up from the bottom.


			http://www.ecstasy.org/testing/db/ar_31_5_2002.html
		


I just notee the 30 mins to comeup. It seems like anything less than 45 minutes is rare nowadays. Something else which puzzles me. 30 minutes sounds about right for a single, decent pill (~100mg).

Double dropping would be more like 15 minutes and hit by a train coming up hard and fast.
And these longer comeups nowadays are reported in line with the higher dosages as well.

Edit- there is another report on the yellow alligators further up the same page.

Edit 2- 2 more yellow Gator reports from 2002 on this page:



			http://www.ecstasy.org/testing/db/ar_1_5_2002.html


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Le Junk said:


> I just want to clarify something here. If your pupils do not dilate all the way to the outer edge of your eyeball leaving only a microscopic sliver of color left, there is something wrong with your ecstasy. This is not something that is open for debate. I had read someone earlier saying their pupils didn’t dilate all the way to the outer edge but that all of positive effects were there in shitloads. I’m afraid that’s just a case of wishful thinking. We all like to think that what we’re doing is the real deal or that this time is going to be different, but the reality is that pupils dilating all the way to the outer edge is one of the non-negotiable visual markers associated with real MDMA.



Pupil dilation is dose dependant and affects some people more than others. Not sure why an irrelevant side-effect matters more to you than it being an enjoyable experience? That's like gauging the quality of your MDMA on how many packs of gum you chew over the night.



indigoaura said:


> When you think about it, the whole concept of "losing the magic" is a perfect cover for any unscrupulous manufacturers who want to sell shit product.



"Losing the magic" is certainly a stupid term, but there is a reality to over-use, gaining tolerance and generally just growing up.

I don't enjoy alcohol like I did when I was sixteen, a lot of people say the same about weed, coke, meth, acid and every other drug.

You say that term is something that can be exploited by vendors, I've never heard that. Ever.

I have heard merchants claim that their 'type' of MDMA is better than other MDMA because bla bla bla.. similar to the unfounded claims I read here.



G_Chem said:


> I wouldn’t put it past chemists to try and lock a lot of water into the crystal matrix. This probably wouldn’t be easy to detect as an “impurity” either.





G_Chem said:


> Trapping water into the fused crystalline MDMA HCl may be one way they add weight that can then not be easily detected once lab tested



You think that chemists are purposefully trapping water in the crystals and this cannot be easily detected?

How do you figure that?


----------



## G_Chem

^^I know they can, I don’t know how easy it would be to detect though.  That’s something I’d like another to come in and answer.

And to respond to your other message.  I do understand people’s skepticism, I myself still ain’t quite sure.. But I’ve seen enough anecdotal evidence to make me lean towards the side that indeed there’s some issues with certain areas MDMA.  A lot of the issues you bring up too have been addressed.

I’m not so much a “all MDMA is crap” person like some in this thread, I’m more of a “all MDMA varies” kinda guy.  I think batches have always varied, it’s just as the years have gone on and the market has grown, we have more chemists with more synthesis routes than ever before.

If you read over the old Hive board you’ll see even back then they were beginning to see certain routes produced inferior product compared to others.  (Pressure O2 SRV Ketone reaction gives a product when aminated that’s inferior.)

-GC


----------



## Kaden_Nite

I remember a Rhodium thread, early 2000s, mentioning a 'big crystal finish' using ice cold water I believe. That may be what indigoaura's friend is talking about? I'll try to find a link.



G_Chem said:


> I’m not so much a “all MDMA is crap” person like some in this thread, I’m more of a “all MDMA varies” kinda guy. I think batches have always varied, it’s just as the years have gone on and the market has grown, we have more chemists with more synthesis routes than ever before.



That makes sense.



G_Chem said:


> If you read over the old Hive board you’ll see even back then they were beginning to see certain routes produced inferior product compared to others. (Pressure O2 SRV Ketone reaction gives a product when aminated that’s inferior.)



I know of certain shortcuts that can be taken which will get inferior results, but I think that can be attributed to lackluster clean-up.


----------



## G_Chem

@AutoTripper - I’ve never seen those pages before but they have excellent information and actually further solidify my theory on 90’s MDMA.

If you guys remember I talked about the Leuckart reaction being king in the early to mid 90’s. I’ve in past posts made the many connections there are via research articles and anecdotes. 

Well one thing that I found interesting was that in the 90’s the Marquis actually went a bluish black instead of a purple to black or straight black like we see today. In fact as I mentioned this caused lots of confusion once the synthesis route changed towards the turn of the millennia, and all the MDMA started turning purple to black instead.

There were 3 pills which went bluish black and 2 of them sounded like way better than average pills, the other one sounded decent but like it was a weak dosage.

The duration of 6 hours on one sounds a lot like early 90’s MDMA.

Link any more pages similar to that one please.  Or where you found those..

Edit- Lol it appears every tab on that page was the users “best pill ever!!!” So guess take it all with a grain of salt.  I found another reaction turned blue on that page though which tells me it was fairly common into the early 2000’s to stumble upon Leuckart MDMA.  Lab testing on tabs from Hong Kong in 2002 I believe seem to corroborate this.

-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> @AutoTripper - I’ve never seen those pages before but they have excellent information and actually further solidify my theory on 90’s MDMA.
> 
> If you guys remember I talked about the Leuckart reaction being king in the early to mid 90’s. I’ve in past posts made the many connections there are via research articles and anecdotes.
> 
> Well one thing that I found interesting was that in the 90’s the Marquis actually went a bluish black instead of a purple to black or straight black like we see today. In fact as I mentioned this caused lots of confusion once the synthesis route changed towards the turn of the millennia, and all the MDMA started turning purple to black instead.
> 
> There were 3 pills which went bluish black and 2 of them sounded like way better than average pills, the other one sounded decent but like it was a weak dosage.
> 
> The duration of 6 hours on one sounds a lot like early 90’s MDMA.
> 
> Link any more pages similar to that one please.  Or where you found those..
> 
> Edit- Lol it appears every tab on that page was the users “best pill ever!!!” So guess take it all with a grain of salt.  I found another reaction turned blue on that page though which tells me it was fairly common into the early 2000’s to stumble upon Leuckart MDMA.  Lab testing on tabs from Hong Kong in 2002 I believe seem to corroborate this.
> 
> -GC


Hey good day mate. I'm glad you found those links interesting I have scoured for such resources on and off over the years out of interest and curiosity about the past pills I took and when.

Regarding the exclamations of the best pill ever I don't think that has to detract from the substance of the reports I mean these people are probably more likely to report these pills if they had an amazing time and the fact is there were a lot of really high quality amazing MDMA pills around throughout those years alongside the trash.

Interesting the spotlight you draw on the Marquis reaction going straight to Black now or purple black vs blue to black in the past because I definitely remember seeing that blue to black reaction.

And yes 6 hours, that is not unthinkable at all. For the size of the current dosages, the actual durations of the rolls reported seems pretty short cut to me.

So I do think the majority of these subjective pill reports have strong legitimacy.

Anyway I'm not sure if you were able to navigate your way to this page I'm about to link which is the main one from which I accessd those other pages but this is a slightly funny site and the search function is not that easy to find what you want.

I have been on this site a number of times in the past and currently I have bookmarked this main page because I lost it or couldn't find it before.

Some of the links to time periods have actual quantities especially the earlier 90s which is especially interesting lots of MDA and MDEA in there.



			http://www.ecstasy.org/testing/db/archive.html
		


Have fun with all that, I know I did.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Dude.. Thank you!  Really not sure how I’ve never seen this before..

And you remember the bluish reaction on marquis? When did you start again?  Did you notice any difference between that reagent reaction and others?

Yea as you may know the EZTest Marquis chart showed a bluish blackish reaction for MDMA, so once the synthesis routes started to change around 2000 people began to question if everything was MDEA (as they had MDEA as a purple to black.)  Similar to the change near 2010 when reagent tests showed a lot more straight to black results.

6 hours isn’t weird for me or some of the batches of MDMA I take but I’ve heard many claim MDMA only lasts 2-3 hours which was never the case before.  I’d say MDMA typically lasts 4-6 hours.  I’ve had a few rolls last 2-3 and I wasn’t too happy about it.

-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> ^^^Dude.. Thank you!  Really not sure how I’ve never seen this before..
> 
> And you remember the bluish reaction on marquis? When did you start again?  Did you notice any difference between that reagent reaction and others?
> 
> Yea as you may know the EZTest Marquis chart showed a bluish blackish reaction for MDMA, so once the synthesis routes started to change around 2000 people began to question if everything was MDEA (as they had MDEA as a purple to black.)  Similar to the change near 2010 when reagent tests showed a lot more straight to black results.
> 
> 6 hours isn’t weird for me or some of the batches of MDMA I take but I’ve heard many claim MDMA only lasts 2-3 hours which was never the case before.  I’d say MDMA typically lasts 4-6 hours.  I’ve had a few rolls last 2-3 and I wasn’t too happy about it.
> 
> -GC


My first ever "e" lol (still love that term, its the controversy I like, right from the origin) was 1996. Half actually, of a Californian Sunriser. Not the best pill at all in terms of dosage I would estimate 50 to 70mg maximum.  It was right about 96 when the average MDMA quantity dipped substantially.

I would say averages wete 40-70 mg for a few years, or at least until the latter of 1997 when the first legendary Mitsubishis came onto the scene and I think average quantities bumped back up to nearer 80 mg, but those very first Mitsubishis must have been at least 200 mg of the finest old skool stuff.

They were 7 hours plus on 1 pill. A whole night, the entire rave. Pretty much everybody at the place had the same experience with just needing one pill and being totally blown away and speechless, no comedown at all, just like bringing a plane down gently onto the runway and before you know it you were landed and it is time to get off.

Now I do have to confess that I never actually tested a pill myself with a Marquis testing kit and I only ever saw one pill tested in front of me it was a very clean good quality Mercedes pill which we took with us to the 1999 summer exodus Festival.

On making our way into the large farmfield complex which was basically like a gigantic fairground festival sites with marquees all over the place, a girl approached me and asked if I wanted to swap a pill and showed me a big tasty looking Mitsubishi.

I said yes sure and gave her a Mercedes which she instantly tested in front of me and was very impressed with in seconds and was up for the swap she offered to test the Mitsubishi in front of me, it already had a little chip broken off of it but I was pretty sure I could trust her so I declined.

Anyway I did watch the reaction of my Mercedes pill which we already knew was clean uncut MDMA, and I definitely have a memory forged in my mind which I had not even thought about of distinctly seeing a blue to black reaction in a matter of seconds.

And I'm not sure how but the impression does appear to have been formed in my mind that that was fairly typical, blue to black.

So lol, 3000 plus pills, and I never actually tested a single one!
I'm not sure if that is shameful or assuring. Still, I survived!

Yes 2-3 hours I would feel rather short changed.


----------



## G_Chem

This link is a goddamn gold mine.. The first/oldest page pretty much confirmed my suspicions.  Notice how most of the reactions are black/blue whereas the few purple to black ones are met with skepticism.

I should mention I personally have never seen a Marquis reaction like that.  And since the Leuckart has pretty much died out I may never.  I have seen a few people on reddit ask about it though so I do believe thecstuff is still out there.  (Note:  I’m not saying Leuckart is the ideal product, I don’t know that, but I believe it’s one route that produces product many people really enjoy.)

Yea the thing that tells me rolls lasted longer back then is the length of raves.  I feel like in the 90’s, raves and events lasted a lot longer.  Could be a number of factors related to that though..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper Thanks for posting the Nicholas Saunders ecstasy.org website! I used to love this site back in the day, and I forgot that they had user reports listed on the page. So many pills that I recall!

Scroll down here, and you will see the report for Pink Elephants: "kicked in very intense, had me horny as a mother fucker, and feeling touchy good roll." I had those too. 


			http://www.ecstasy.org/testing/db/ar_31_10_2001.html
		


And, you see a lot of people talking about the sense of touch and loved up feeling, as well as coming up fast. That is all what I remember.


----------



## indigoaura

Check this out:









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7472 - Tesla, 7472
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




Three unidentified substances make up the majority of the pill, with a minimal amount of MDMA in the pill. 

"This sample contains an unidentified chemical. We do not have a matching substance in our lab's internal database and have not yet been able to confirm the chemicals' identity by using outside sources.

We need the help of outside expert analytical chemists and drug geeks to determine what substance matches the mass spectrum (MS) fingerprint. The lab's GC/MS output graphs can be viewed by clicking on the thumbnails on this page."

Hypothetically, if a pill was half an unidentified substance and half MDMA, it would probably still turn the test kits black. There are quite a few WEIRD test results on there. What the hell is methylsulfonylmethane?


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Check this out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7472 - Tesla, 7472
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three unidentified substances make up the majority of the pill, with a minimal amount of MDMA in the pill.
> 
> "This sample contains an unidentified chemical. We do not have a matching substance in our lab's internal database and have not yet been able to confirm the chemicals' identity by using outside sources.
> 
> We need the help of outside expert analytical chemists and drug geeks to determine what substance matches the mass spectrum (MS) fingerprint. The lab's GC/MS output graphs can be viewed by clicking on the thumbnails on this page."
> 
> Hypothetically, if a pill was half an unidentified substance and half MDMA, it would probably still turn the test kits black. There are quite a few WEIRD test results on there. What the hell is methylsulfonylmethane?



Simply a trash pill. Its pills that are testing for pure mdma and molly testing pure thats causing the "meh dma" feelings. This wouldnt apply to the threads purpose in my opinion.

Methylsulfonylmethane is msm. Used in a lot of msm condroitin supplements. Its pretty harmless. Used for joint health mainly.


----------



## epic11

Here is an exact pill that caused the "meh dma" feelings for me. mdma only.

Side note: The "cp" pills are supposedly supposed to be the best out at the moment. I question that. haha









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #5044 - Starbucks, 5044
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 IMO, it is relevant because it demonstrates that they are not able to identify everything, and their catalog of substances is clearly not a complete catalog.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

epic11 said:


> Methylsulfonylmethane is msm.



It is used to cut meth as it burns clean (although at a lower temperature) and can form large shards. Seems to be showing up in MDMA and ketamine lately too, probably to turn powder/small crystals into rocks.


----------



## indigoaura

As for the reactions...I do not recall the nuances of all of my marquis reactions. I do know that I bought a kit within the first couple of times I rolled, but I was inexperienced with it. A DXM reaction looked right to me on my second roll. After the fact, I realized that the small amount of smoking was indicative of a problem.

As for how long the rolls lasted...4-6 hours is what I recall for a "good" roll. There were times, however, where the pills were okay and the roll was super short. I specifically remember some pink pills with RR on the pill. They were very tiny pills. The roll was really loved up (I talked to my teddy bear...) but it was over FAST. I thought it was odd at the time, how short that roll was, but it felt really clean. But, the best experience I ever had was on HALF of a red mickey mouse pill. That lasted me ALL NIGHT. It went until the party was over. No need to re-dose at all (and, good, because we did not have any more than that).

My habits may not have been ideal. However, I never double dropped to start. Ever. I never rolled back to back on the same weekend, or even two weekends in a row. So, my usage always involved one pill to start, or a half pill to start. The 4-6 hour was from the initial come-up off one pill.


----------



## indigoaura

@Kaden_Nite You said, "I don't enjoy alcohol like I did when I was sixteen, a lot of people say the same about weed, coke, meth, acid and every other drug." But, that is not the point. Whether you enjoy it as much as you used to or not, if you drank 5 shots, you would still get drunk. If you bought a bottle of vodka, and drank 5 shots, but did NOT get drunk, you would know without a doubt that something was wrong with your vodka.

Vendors may not be using the term, "losing the magic," but if an old-roller buys a product and does not really roll, then everyone is likely to say "Oh, you just lost the magic." New rollers may not know the difference, so they think the product is fine. So, it is an easy way for shit product to get sold.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

indigoaura said:


> Whether you enjoy it as much as you used to or not, if you drank 5 shots, you would still get drunk. If you bought a bottle of vodka, and drank 5 shots, but did NOT get drunk, you would know without a doubt that something was wrong with your vodka.



I used to drink; feel energetic, talkative, sit up all night laughing. Now, it just makes me feel lethargic, bored. Still gets me drunk of course, it's just different now.

The difference is pretty much spot on to what you claim is the difference between these 'types' of MDMA.

Chemically, MDMA is MDMA. Street-grade stuff is often not the best quality (synthesis impurities, cuts, possibly adulterated) but underneath the grime, it's all just MDMA.


----------



## indigoaura

That's just, like, your opinion man.


----------



## indigoaura

Especially since newbies note the same differences, and they don't have a tolerance yet.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> Here is an exact pill that caused the "meh dma" feelings for me. mdma only.
> 
> Side note: The "cp" pills are supposedly supposed to be the best out at the moment. I question that. haha


Im not questioning anything you are saying, but just wanted to note it isva much smaller pill than the "All the rage" 200mg+ pills tyoucally are. At just 324mg, if less than half is MDMA, likely below 150 mg at least- that could have been a factor and maybe not a totally fair comparison to a 220mg + equivalent.  But like I say not disagreeing with you.


indigoaura said:


> IMO, it is relevant because it demonstrates that they are not able to identify everything, and their catalog of substances is clearly not a complete catalog.


I think, at least, it is reassuring that they have at least detected various other substances alongside the MDMA. I mean there are plenty of similar reports mixed in over the years among the consistent numbers of clean MDMA pills with no other active or unidentified substances detected.

So Im just thinking...gosh too stoned again on vapor and edibles...okay, Im not sure now haha. But that's one other thing I really love about this place barely any egos so you never feel like you need to explain or justify yourself.

I think I'll just leave it there while I continue to catch up on the remaining posts above.


----------



## AutoTripper

@G_Chem hold the press! This is what I was looking for earlier on that pill report site, but I just couldnt navigate my way to these pages. I knew I had seen them, but I had no idea how or from where, and I didnt have any luck within the site.

So I googled my way in through the back door, et voila:



			http://ecstasy.org/testing/labtest0697.html
		


This is the real cream of most interest to me. Im not sure if it will be possible to find the links to all other time periods from this page yet, but I will be sure to check and link anything else I can find if necessary.

Edit- getting there:




__





						Ecstasy Testing Index Page
					





					ecstasy.org


----------



## G_Chem

Shit man I had the link to the page that gives you the rest of the results your seeking from 95 or so 98 I believe.  I’ll look quick..

Is this what your looking for?





__





						Ecstasy Testing Index Page
					





					ecstasy.org
				




Here’s another that’s helpful..





__





						MAPS - 1996 Ecstasy Pill Analysis
					





					www.maps.org
				




-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> Shit man I had the link to the page that gives you the rest of the results your seeking from 95 or so 98 I believe.  I’ll look quick..
> 
> Is this what your looking for?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ecstasy Testing Index Page
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ecstasy.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here’s another that’s helpful..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MAPS - 1996 Ecstasy Pill Analysis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.maps.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -GC


Thanks and cool, another very useful and informative document to browse through.

I did find the other main page you linked me and included it in my post above. That site does confuse me. Thank god for google.

What struck out at me when I first encountered these pages was the near predominance of MDE from the Mid-90's.

I expect MDE featured very frequently in early 90's pills too. I was thinking that if MDE prevalence stepped up a lot from 95 onwards, this would have certainly been a factor in drum and bass gaining popularity alongside the Hardcore at the legal raves we used to attend.

Arguably better matched to the more mellow, sombre, detached musical rythym.


----------



## G_Chem

After reading over that page you linked AutoTripper, I’ve been able to more narrow in on exactly when the Leuckart went out of fashion in 1999.

As I theorized, the change (unlike the more recent one around 2010) back then wasn’t rrally a bad one per se just different.  I seem to have hit it right on the head the differences too.

MDMA of the early to late 90’s was longer lasting and more energizing or “dancey.”  It appears a pill was measured on how long and hard it made you want to dance.  They also redosed better.

I’m interested to hear if any of us ever comes across a batch that tests black to dark blue like the old pills.  If you do, please be cognizant of what’s happening while your on it! Write some damn notes lol.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Expecting some pure white crystal very soon. Will report back...


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Expecting some pure white crystal very soon. Will report back...



didnt you like........ JUST ROLL?! lol


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Yeah, a couple of weeks ago. Should be fine


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeah, a couple of weeks ago. Should be fine



lol, way against hr, but i know you know this and dont give a f. Thanks for the update.


----------



## indigoaura

I really wonder if what I had access to in 2000-2005 was the 90s product, because it lasted longer and it made you want to dance/gave you energy. It re-dosed well. There were pills that felt different and were shorter (as I have mentioned). Maybe those were made with other methods. If I could read over my pill reports, I would be better able to say what happened in the reagent reactions, but I emailed pillreports and they said they can no longer access those old reports.


----------



## indigoaura

Also...happy 100th birthday to our thread! 

I had no comedown this week. No depression. No blue Tuesday. No emo feelings. Felt queasy on Monday and a tiny bit queasy on Tuesday, and that was it.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Also...happy 100th birthday to our thread!
> 
> I had no comedown this week. No depression. No blue Tuesday. No emo feelings. Felt queasy on Monday and a tiny bit queasy on Tuesday, and that was it.


Very nice to hear that your comedown was virtually absent. Although, you strike me as being very level emotionally so as to be better at managing the mental/emotional rollercoaster that we all know MDMA can be. 

I also concur- i was going to say there was nothing missing, but who knows, maybe the drug did change subtly after 99, is not necessarily in a bad way as @G_Chem suggests.

There was certainly nothing wrong with what I was taking between 99 and 2005 if anything I generally took much better quality ecstasy on average during that period then I did between 1996 and 99.

A particular batch of smiley faces which came out late 2001 I believe were some of the absolute best I ever came across in every sense- in particular that pure, lively, ecstatic, seemingly infinite energy for dancing and life.  Full on empathy. No edge, just the real deal.

That was ecstasy. It made you be that way. It was as transformational and impactful as a trip.    

Sorry, sidetracked again. But yes no reason I guess why they couldn't have been made from 90s manufactured MDMA.  

In 2004/5 there were so many top draw e's around. However it was being produced at the time I definitely was finding no problem with the substance but it's still a very interesting notion to think that there may have been some alteration in 1999 to the production and hence subjective effects which went completely under the radar in terms of collective perception.


----------



## indigoaura

Yeah, I consider myself pretty emotionally level. But, when I was young, my comedowns from ecstasy were just as distinct and notable as the rolls themselves. I had intense fluctuations in emotion. Always predictably mid-week after the roll, Tues-Weds. Then it would bounce back and I would get a flood of normalcy towards the end of the week. No-matter how much I knew that the comedown was likely to make me irrational, I still thought my feelings were completely rational at the time. I still remember one post NYE comedown where I started FREAKING OUT about the Christmas tree needles on the carpet. I desperately needed to vacuum them, and I started calling everyone I knew wanting to borrow their vacuum cleaner. But, problem was, everyone I knew was just as cracked out as me and not about to drive over to my apartment with a vacuum cleaner. Ha! I can't remember who saved me and eventually brought one over, but I still remember the desperation of that moment.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Yeah, I consider myself pretty emotionally level. But, when I was young, my comedowns from ecstasy were just as distinct and notable as the rolls themselves. I had intense fluctuations in emotion. Always predictably mid-week after the roll, Tues-Weds. Then it would bounce back and I would get a flood of normalcy towards the end of the week. No-matter how much I knew that the comedown was likely to make me irrational, I still thought my feelings were completely rational at the time. I still remember one post NYE comedown where I started FREAKING OUT about the Christmas tree needles on the carpet. I desperately needed to vacuum them, and I started calling everyone I knew wanting to borrow their vacuum cleaner. But, problem was, everyone I knew was just as cracked out as me and not about to drive over to my apartment with a vacuum cleaner. Ha! I can't remember who saved me and eventually brought one over, but I still remember the desperation of that moment.


Well verbalised, the concept of rationalisation could not be more fitting. I have experienced exactly the same pattern through the week after MDMA as you describe. And indeed it was purely chemical and in no way a mind over matter affair, we're all you could do was literally try not to pull your hair out and blow your house down and wait for it to pass for those clear skies again on the other side.


----------



## indigoaura

The lack of a typical comedown is another indicator that something different is happening here. I have been wondering lately if it is possible that tolerance has more to do with the liver than the brain. Could the liver be metabolizing the drug faster or differently?


----------



## AutoTripper

Well as they say- "What goes up..."

I was thinking before how the lack of a comedown is the perc of not actually coming up properly. Not truly anyway.
People are clearly coming up differently, into a different high.

It fits in my mind that this may well be related to the subjective, and maybe the biological nature of the experience, not necessarily the liver. So if anything, not suffering as much through your comedown is a bonus and partial justice.

I mean, it would be much worse to be experiencing that knife-edge intense heart churning emotional see-saw, without the true glorious magic.  Is it simply the huge and sharp contrast of emotions, to the biological blues, from that mountain top of wonder, which causes that midweek emotional near-despair we have talked about?

I do think there is a strong emotional, psychological link to the extreme emotional state. As it seems nobody may be truly reaching that place, it is a least a small justice if that means they are let off with the emotional comedown intensity.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> The lack of a typical comedown is another indicator that something different is happening here.



Good point.


----------



## MoonShadow9

Here lately... well for a long time actually... the extascy pills have just been trash. Basically like meth pretty much. A friend of mine hollered at me late last night and he brought some green spongebob x pills... About 30 or so mins after I took one I. WAS. THROWED. I'm 40 and don't do it often but the last time I rolled that hard was a music festival in 1999! Ok... so let me tell you exactly what all happened last night and up to early afternoon...   ??????????↗???????????????????????????????⚖???✌??♻??????☯???????☃?????????????☮???????


----------



## epic11

MoonShadow9 said:


> Here lately... well for a long time actually... the extascy pills have just been trash. Basically like meth pretty much. A friend of mine hollered at me late last night and he brought some green spongebob x pills... About 30 or so mins after I took one I. WAS. THROWED. I'm 40 and don't do it often but the last time I rolled that hard was a music festival in 1999! Ok... so let me tell you exactly what all happened last night and up to early afternoon...   ??????????↗???????????????????????????????⚖???✌??♻??????☯???????☃?????????????☮???????



Like this one?









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #6600 - Spongebob, 6600
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org


----------



## G_Chem

Notice the synthesis byproducts...  If only we knew which ones and if they are active.

-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

I clicked on the highlighted "synthesis byproducts", to see all the results over time. 
At first I thought crikey, lots of pills with extra synth impurities vs others.

But then I saw there is only 1 page of results, so I guess it isnt that common on the scale of things.

Hey- I'm just wondering how much these synthesis by products may actually contribute to the effects maybe even some of the better experiences we've had have been boosted by this?  Cant rule it out at least.

Im glad not to see my Bowsers in there anyway, I really need my product to be as pure and uncontaminated as possible. 

Incidentally, I came across a Reddit post where someone tests one of the gold Bowsers. He suspected it so tested for the first time ever.

I asked about his experience, Im AlexisReal on Reddit if you want to see his response to me.

Hope everybody is doing well. A rainy Saturday here in UK.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> I clicked on the highlighted "synthesis byproducts", to see all the results over time.
> At first I thought crikey, lots of pills with extra synth impurities vs others.
> 
> But then I saw there is only 1 page of results, so I guess it isnt that common on the scale of things.
> 
> Hey- I'm just wondering how much these synthesis by products may actually contribute to the effects maybe even some of the better experiences we've had have been boosted by this?  Cant rule it out at least.
> 
> Im glad not to see my Bowsers in there anyway, I really need my product to be as pure and uncontaminated as possible.
> 
> Incidentally, I came across a Reddit post where someone tests one of the gold Bowsers. He suspected it so tested for the first time ever.
> 
> I asked about his experience, Im AlexisReal on Reddit if you want to see his response to me.
> 
> Hope everybody is doing well. A rainy Saturday here in UK.



You really dont need to worry too much about the bowsers. Lower your anxiety, those are pure dutch mdma. supposedly the best on the market now. You are gonna have to let us know your thoughts. haha


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> You really dont need to worry too much about the bowsers. Lower your anxiety, those are pure dutch mdma. supposedly the best on the market now. You are gonna have to let us know your thoughts. haha


Yes I know. I feel I lucked out to get a pretty pure press, not hard shiny glary glitter.
But no matter what I am guaranteed to react adversely to probably every substance in the pill in some way or other unless I plug it which should negate all of those reactions.

Im a little step closer to it now after a much needed but excruciatingly difficult trip on 1plsd yesterday purely for the sake of verifying some legal microdosing product supply my mum and I have recently obtained from Germany while it was still legal before July.

Amidst a few scattered reports of blank cardboard being received my anxiety has been sky-high incase this had happened to us. 

In which case I really needed to know ASAP while there would be time to do something about it and I have been in such an unbearable physical and mental condition I really could not face tripping like that,  especially feeling forced into it by myself in the most anxious and unprepared frame of mind you could enter a trip with.

The product works as advertised to my relief and also my dismay has I had to ride out the trip in that state.

Long story short it didn't take very long before my head was completely sorted out leaving only my body in the most dire condition it could feeling with exhaustion and pain and stomach upset and respiratory symptoms you name it.

Quite an amazing experience though to feel so in need of euthanasia lol physically but so completely sorted in the head, with really positive and deep emotional healing and release occurring automatically.

So the trip has definitely paid off in helping me release some significant shackles from my mind and look forward with more optimism and much better problem solving ability.
I am absolutely determined to get myself into a right condition to live life first and foremost and hopefully in the process to be able to approach my MDMA experience, which very well maybe in combination with a trip because it has always felt so remarkably write to me when I'm in that perfectly centered and high LSD headspace, to then slip so magically into the world of MDMA.

But we'll see. I really think the plugging may be better for me if I can get on top of my IBS bowel and gut traffic jam issues.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Hm, skimmed through the last couple dozen pages. No new info really?

In a month it'll be a year since i last rolled, year since I had that transparent white crystal stuff that rocked my world. Been feeling rather anxious that I won't be able to find anything like that and my yearly "reset" won't live up to my expectations... My friend who originally obtained that MagicDMA recently got a batch of some clear crystal stuff though, hard to tell though since its in much finer pieces but just like the MagicDMA its odorless and white/clear. That MagicDMA you could hold a rock up to your eye and more or less see through it like a damn window, don't ahve large enough pieces of this stuff to try that. My other friend who's on the same page about all this tried 75mg of it the other weekend and said it was "pretty good but maybe not THE stuff", we bicker constantly about drug related stuff and I insisted that if his normal dosage is 150mg how the fuck is he supposed to make any real judgments off of 75mg. I'm adamant that in order to make any real conclusion at the very least the by-weight dosage needs to stay constant. Although, when I ate my fucking words about how "all MDMA is the same blah blah blah" on that come-up of a lifetime with the MagicDMA last year, he was the one who punched me in the shoulder saying "DUDE I FUCKING TOLD YOU SO AHAHHA" going by just the look on my face lmao. He believes currently that all MDMA is just on a spectrum, I agree partly, but I think when its the magic stuff its on a level of its own. Not that its a black & white issue, one or the other entirely, but when you know, you know... EDIT: He and many others tried full doses of this stuff this past weekend, they have all reported back that it is indeed 100% the magic stuff and were quite ecstatic to tell me their findings! Not a doubt in any of their minds.

Was at a party with a nitrous tank and he was insisting that the nitrous from the chargers was stronger, so I filled up 3 balloons, didn't tell him which had the tank or which was out of a charger, or if any of them were either, and after much deliberation he did guess correctly... But, he concedes that he really had to think about it, it wasn't such an obvious difference that he could answer with 100% confidence, so i consider myself the winner of that debate 

r/mdma is such a shit show, people posting MDMA thats just plain clear white crystal and all the comments telling them its meth and they should throw it out, and im here screaming behind my computer screen "NO NO NO, YOU IDIOTS, THAT COULD BE *IT*"

Even after a year, if I listen to a song that was played that magical night, or watch a video someone took of that specific set at that festival on youtube, I get CRAZY goosebumps and butterflies, almost shaky but in a good way. videos/music from that first night with the crappy MDMA (that tested equally as good on IR and NMR), i feel nothing, maybe even some negative feelings about how disappointing it was.

I fear we won't find anything else out until we somehow get ahold of some sort of inside info from those closer to the production.

EDIT: I wonder if MDMA comedown symptoms are genetic in any way. My younger sibling, who has had little to no experience with drugs at all other than drinking, told me that they tried MDMA for the first time a week ago and that they were surprised at how good they felt the next day and following days. I have no idea the quality of MDMA they took or anything, but its funny since that was one of the main things I noticed the first time I rolled; the afterglow and virtually non-existent negative comedown symptoms. To this day I have yet to experience any negative comedown/hangover from MehDMA and MagicDMA alike, just a gentle dissipation of the effects and return to reality. But as I've said many times, I've never overdone it with MDMA; have only ever taken 100mg at once, never redosed, and taking 100mg two days in a row with large breaks on either side is about as reckless as I've gotten with the stuff. Works just as well as it did 9 years ago so long as its the MagicDMA


----------



## indigoaura

Hi Everyone,

I have some updates of interest.

First of all, although I did not have a bad comedown the following week after my roll, I did have a pretty prolonged state of malaise/low level anxiety leading up to my period. I have noticed that before. Depending on when I roll in my cycle, I can get an intensified PMS. No fun. Way better for me to roll on days 5-10 of my cycle, and not mess with it after that.

I was at a party this past weekend. I had some of the local product with me. This is the product that is supposedly made in Mexico. It tested good, but on NYE, I found the effects lackluster.

One friend of mine, a middle aged male, took 160 mg to start and described it as "better than the 90s." However, I watched his pupils all night and never saw much dilation at all.

There was another couple at the event. The girl had never rolled before. She was young, 23, and small. This couple had brought a pill with them. I smelled it and did not smell like anything. It was a Rollex pill in the shape of a crown, and it looked like a re-press to me (different colors swirled together). I expected it was crap, but that was out of my hands. I did not have a test kit with me to test it.

They split that pill and it had no effect. Two hours later, they asked me if they could try some of the other stuff.

I was not thrilled with this idea because I don't like to mix different products. I also really wished they would have just done the Mexican stuff first, because it would have been a more pure experiment that way. But, that was not my decision and was out of my hands.

In any case, what I got to witness was a first time roller taking 120 mg of the Mexican product. I would guess she maybe weighed 110 lbs. 

She vomited on the come-up around the 1 hour mark.

After that, she started talking. She said she kept thinking about sad things that had happened in her life, and she could not stop focusing on those things. She talked at length about several deaths and family traumas. She talked for well over 6 hours NONSTOP. (I am not exaggerating. She never once stopped talking.)

I asked her several times if she felt good, but that did not seem to be the case. She was very fixated on these bad things that had happened in her life. When her boyfriend came up to her and tried to touch her, she would push him away. She did not want to be rubbed or touched. She made several efforts to withdraw from the group and seek solitude. After over 6 hours, she abruptly announced that it was over, she stopped talking, and she went to bed shortly thereafter.

I watched her pupils and I never saw full dilation. I watched her boyfriend's pupils and never saw full dilation either.

Obviously, her experience was a confessional one because she shared a lot of family secrets she said she had never told anyone before. This is a quality I recall from early MDMA experiences. However, I never had an experience where I fixated on negative memories for 6 hours. She also clearly lacked any body high or sensual sensations.

What do you make of this? This is a product that tested as MDMA on 4 different reagent testing kits. 

In other news, I did half a hit of LSD and did not have any paranoia (an issue I have faced recently), but had the same next day queasy feeling I have been getting with X. Not as serious as I have had with the X, but still very similar. I am starting to think that second day nausea is something going on with my body, maybe something hormonal.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> Obviously, her experience was a confessional one because she shared a lot of family secrets she said she had never told anyone before. This is a quality I recall from early MDMA experiences. However, I never had an experience where I fixated on negative memories for 6 hours. She also clearly lacked any body high or sensual sensations.
> 
> What do you make of this? This is a product that tested as MDMA on 4 different reagent testing kits.



This is reminiscent of my MehDMA experiences. An odd mix of tell-tale signs of MDMA with more negative, not so loving nor blissful flavors in the experience.


----------



## nznity

indigoaura said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I have some updates of interest.
> 
> First of all, although I did not have a bad comedown the following week after my roll, I did have a pretty prolonged state of malaise/low level anxiety leading up to my period. I have noticed that before. Depending on when I roll in my cycle, I can get an intensified PMS. No fun. Way better for me to roll on days 5-10 of my cycle, and not mess with it after that.
> 
> I was at a party this past weekend. I had some of the local product with me. This is the product that is supposedly made in Mexico. It tested good, but on NYE, I found the effects lackluster.
> 
> One friend of mine, a middle aged male, took 160 mg to start and described it as "better than the 90s." However, I watched his pupils all night and never saw much dilation at all.
> 
> There was another couple at the event. The girl had never rolled before. She was young, 23, and small. This couple had brought a pill with them. I smelled it and did not smell like anything. It was a Rollex pill in the shape of a crown, and it looked like a re-press to me (different colors swirled together). I expected it was crap, but that was out of my hands. I did not have a test kit with me to test it.
> 
> They split that pill and it had no effect. Two hours later, they asked me if they could try some of the other stuff.
> 
> I was not thrilled with this idea because I don't like to mix different products. I also really wished they would have just done the Mexican stuff first, because it would have been a more pure experiment that way. But, that was not my decision and was out of my hands.
> 
> In any case, what I got to witness was a first time roller taking 120 mg of the Mexican product. I would guess she maybe weighed 110 lbs.
> 
> She vomited on the come-up around the 1 hour mark.
> 
> After that, she started talking. She said she kept thinking about sad things that had happened in her life, and she could not stop focusing on those things. She talked at length about several deaths and family traumas. She talked for well over 6 hours NONSTOP. (I am not exaggerating. She never once stopped talking.)
> 
> I asked her several times if she felt good, but that did not seem to be the case. She was very fixated on these bad things that had happened in her life. When her boyfriend came up to her and tried to touch her, she would push him away. She did not want to be rubbed or touched. She made several efforts to withdraw from the group and seek solitude. After over 6 hours, she abruptly announced that it was over, she stopped talking, and she went to bed shortly thereafter.
> 
> I watched her pupils and I never saw full dilation. I watched her boyfriend's pupils and never saw full dilation either.
> 
> Obviously, her experience was a confessional one because she shared a lot of family secrets she said she had never told anyone before. This is a quality I recall from early MDMA experiences. However, I never had an experience where I fixated on negative memories for 6 hours. She also clearly lacked any body high or sensual sensations.
> 
> What do you make of this? This is a product that tested as MDMA on 4 different reagent testing kits.
> 
> In other news, I did half a hit of LSD and did not have any paranoia (an issue I have faced recently), but had the same next day queasy feeling I have been getting with X. Not as serious as I have had with the X, but still very similar. I am starting to think that second day nausea is something going on with my body, maybe something hormonal.


damn, that girl sounds like such a buzz killer. Anyway those pills as you describe them don't even sound like they contained any Meh-DMA at all, more like meth to me. And I wouldn't party with that girl ever again if I was u...


----------



## indigoaura

Aw...the girl was okay. I felt bad for her. She went into it wanting to have a great time, she did not expect that.

Yeah, the pills that they had sounded either totally bunk to me or some kind of speed. Obviously, the fact that she took 1/2 of one of those pills kind of ruins the experiment. However, to me, it just further supports the idea that something is not right with the product, because good MDMA should have had that girl blowing up and loving life NOT fixated on past trauma. There was no love or bliss, as Psy997 commented on. 

I mean, come on people. If that was what our first MDMA experience was like we would not have been back for more.


----------



## nznity

indigoaura said:


> Aw...the girl was okay. I felt bad for her. She went into it wanting to have a great time, she did not expect that.
> 
> Yeah, the pills that they had sounded either totally bunk to me or some kind of speed. Obviously, the fact that she took 1/2 of one of those pills kind of ruins the experiment. However, to me, it just further supports the idea that something is not right with the product, because good MDMA should have had that girl blowing up and loving life NOT fixated on past trauma. There was no love or bliss, as Psy997 commented on.
> 
> I mean, come on people. If that was what our first MDMA experience was like we would not have been back for more.


You're right I was being a prick and talking with a lot of prejudice, idk what she's been thru and actual MDMA might even be beneficial for her. It pisses me off how alcohol is in every single store all over the world but good mdma is so hard to come by. I swear if mdma was legal people in general would be different, there would be so much less hate in the world and ppl would have such a blast every time they went out. Hopefully one day we'll see ecstasy stores, where they sold magic to people and everyone would be so happy ahhhh.... Utopia. mmm


----------



## Phobos

indigoaura said:


> However, to me, it just further supports the idea that something is not right with the product, because good MDMA should have had that girl blowing up and loving life NOT fixated on past trauma. There was no love or bliss, as Psy997 commented on.
> 
> I mean, come on people. If that was what our first MDMA experience was like we would not have been back for more.



I have taken amazing MDMA with a few friends and had 2 troubled people do the same as that girl, talk about how their life sucked because of all the problems,... While everybody else was going running around smiling, laughing hysterically and being loved up and silly with saucer pupils and tight jaw.
The MDMA was mine coming from the same bag for everybody.
The sad guys, seen them roll like that in other occasions as well.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea the confessional end of things sounds familiar, actually helped facilitate similar experiences this past weekend through the use of MDMA and 5-MAPB.  The thing that sticks out though is the utter lack of euphoria/empathy and zero pupil dilation.

One couple I gave it too had zero iris visible and basically couldn’t stop telling me how grateful and appreciative they were.

Now this is the magic of MDMA, not only do you relive the past trauma, but you do so in a moment of complete love, relaxation and acceptance.  The experience outlined by Indigo just sounded like a reliving without the rest which facilitates the healing...  One girl was able to finally tell her bf about her past rape that she hadn’t told another soul, in the act of doing this she felt so liberated and free for the first time.  She felt safe and loved, allowing her space to open up about these things in a positive way.  (Key is the positive outlook upon the past trauma, or current trauma for that matter.  Something I’ll touch on in the other thread.)

Not that what this girl you speak of experienced had not been healing.  It very well could have...  But I think you guys are on to something here.  Meth sounds like a real possibility given the sketchy Rolex presses which haven’t been legit in like a decade.

Btw I’ll be sharing my experience with this past weekend in a separate thread.  Shit was pure magic last weekend and I’d do a disservice by not talking about it..

Love ya’ll
-GC


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> Yea the confessional end of things sounds familiar, actually helped facilitate similar experiences this past weekend through the use of MDMA and 5-MAPB.  The thing that sticks out though is the utter lack of euphoria/empathy and zero pupil dilation.
> 
> One couple I gave it too had zero iris visible and basically couldn’t stop telling me how grateful and appreciative they were.
> 
> Now this is the magic of MDMA, not only do you relive the past trauma, but you do so in a moment of complete love, relaxation and acceptance.  The experience outlined by Indigo just sounded like a reliving without the rest which facilitates the healing...  One girl was able to finally tell her bf about her past rape that she hadn’t told another soul, in the act of doing this she felt so liberated and free for the first time.  She felt safe and loved, allowing her space to open up about these things in a positive way.  (Key is the positive outlook upon the past trauma, or current trauma for that matter.  Something I’ll touch on in the other thread.)
> 
> Not that what this girl you speak of experienced had not been healing.  It very well could have...  But I think you guys are on to something here.  Meth sounds like a real possibility given the sketchy Rolex presses which haven’t been legit in like a decade.
> 
> Btw I’ll be sharing my experience with this past weekend in a separate thread.  Shit was pure magic last weekend and I’d do a disservice by not talking about it..
> 
> Love ya’ll
> -GC



Good observations, minus the meth part. Its not meth, ive eaten meth once in a strong rave pill and this "mehdma" response is nothing like that. Mehdma basically would fool anyone who never felt what mdma was really like. Its sneaky. Its so damn close to the whole experience, that a lot of people probably think thats it.

to add to @indigoaura 's thoughts..... I will add that ive personally witnessed new rollers who have never rolled before take some of the "best" pills and mdma on the planet. With the same effect. Everything but the love. Somethings up. Brand new rollers, never touched the stuff before, they werent showing the over the top "HOLY CRAP THIS IS AMAZING" type response. No massive eye dilation either.  Tried tested and true pure mdma. No cuts.


----------



## G_Chem

Oh also guys another note....

Over the weekend I took a quarter tab of a popular SoCal press (G6 Crew) as a booster to my normal amazing shit.  If I was to listen to people on Reddit, these are supposed to be some of the best presses on the market, comparable to CP Dutch Presses.

As soon as I ate the quarter (estimated around 50mg) I noticed that the bitterness seemed different than all the other MDMA products I take.  It was like more sour and similar to APB substances.  The reagent tests matched MDMA identically, and I’m familiar enough testing APB’s to see the difference in reagent puddles.

Not long after eating the quarter I noticed a mongy somewhat spaced out state somewhat overshadowing the good MDMA I took earlier.  It felt identical to what everyone’s bitching about, similar but not what I’m looking for...

The quarter dulled the rest of the night.  I now understand what MehDMA is..

Thankfully this is not the usual for me.  But damn I spent a premium on these shitty fucks, cost x2 as much as my local product and not nearly as good.

I’ll hang onto the 1 and 3/4 I have left for future research purposes.  The difference in taste though was weird and these presses also went straight to black on Marquis.

Presses were Yellow G6 Piggy Banks.

-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> to add to @indigoaura 's thoughts..... I will add that ive personally witnessed new rollers who have never rolled before take some of the "best" pills and mdma on the planet. With the same effect. Everything but the love. Somethings up. Brand new rollers, never touched the stuff before, they werent showing the over the top "HOLY CRAP THIS IS AMAZING" type response. No massive eye dilation either. Tried tested and true pure mdma. No cuts.


My immediate thoughts on this I relate to the phenomenon of cannabis use which on the very first occasion in an individual's life- the experience can actually go completely over the head of the user.

My mum was an old school hippie back in the day and I grew up in a pot home of hippies who shared many tales and adages from the the hippie scene.

One of the first things I remember her telling me about drugs was how the first time you get stoned you don't actually get stoned. My mum described having this experience herself the first time she used cannabis which was completely different the second time and I think she observed it as a pretty common thing.

The first time I used cannabis myself I think this happenned to me actually I was age 17 having already been taking ecstasy and LSD for roughly one year.

I chewed up about 1.5 g of clean hash and the experience went completely over my head I wasn't consciously aware of what I was feeling but I was clearly stoned from my friends perspective and looking back afterwards because all I did was eat two boxes of apple pies and fall asleep lol!

My friend he was with me at the time commented that I was acting weird although I was just kind of sedated mainly.

When I saw my older peers who had given me a bit of hash who were longtime experienced cannabis users and they asked me "how did you get on with the blow?"

And I replied "it didn't do anything all I did was eat 2 boxes of apple pies and fall asleep".
My exact words, to which Paul replied exactly "Sounds to me like you got wrecked". Followed by chuckles around the room.

So I definitely experienced this phenomena where I experienced the drug fully but not consciously observing or appreciating or accurately appraising the extent or nature of the effects.

I know with MDMA there is this widespread misconception and belief that your first time will be the best and you will never experience that again my first time certainly wasn't my best but it was only half of a weak pill, maybe 40-50 mg MDMA tops in a half.

But I do think it is possible with any substance to kind of miss the experience the first time for various psychological reasons to do with perception and maybe expectations and just catching up with our mind and making sense of things retrospectively which is unnecessary the next time when everything is automatically more familiar to be instantly engaged with.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Someone getting emotional in a negative way on MDMA is not unheard of, has happened to me many times. It can simply force you to think about some stuff that might be otherwise too hard to think about AT ALL. Just because the MDMA makes you think about it doesn't necessarily mean its going to be pleasant, but it eases it just enough to talk about it.

Perfect example is veterans with PTSD, because the memories are so painful the MDMA might just barely provide enough "lubrication" to reflect on it whereas sober it wouldnt even be up for discussion, period.

Most of my rolls the comeup starts with some difficult reflection. Its often felt like I will NOT roll until I do just face it. Its why i think i experience a TON of anxiety the days/weeks leading up to a planned-roll. I dont get this same feeling about getting drunk, thats PURELY recreational. With MDMA, taking that capsule for me is like "welp, here we go, deep breath... it'll be ok"

MDMA I think makes people very emotional, not necessarily HAPPY in any situation. I had a friend get really inside his head on MDMA; he was unemployed at the time, everyone else he was with including me had just finished university and that was sort of the celebration, he never went to school and had just sort of been hanging out those years. He was feeling very "stuck" in life. The MDMA made him face this, and maybe he did need to think about this, about his future and get a reality check. For the first half of the roll he was pretty sad, but when he FINALLY was able to talk about with everyone else, all the negative crap fell away and the proper roll ensued. Maybe that was more beneficial/useful/dynamic of an experience that way?

On a side note, and i know this isnt my thread so maybe its not my place, but this has all drifted so far from any scientific discussion and to any onlooker it really just does look like burnt out ravers rambling about the good ol days... Does that deserve its own thread? I feel we need to keep the two separate if we want to be taken seriously


----------



## PlayHard

nice to see this topic is still alive and active. not been on here in awhile.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> My immediate thoughts on this I relate to the phenomenon of cannabis use which on the very first occasion in an individual's life- the experience can actually go completely over the head of the user.
> 
> My mum was an old school hippie back in the day and I grew up in a pot home of hippies who shared many tales and adages from the the hippie scene.
> 
> One of the first things I remember her telling me about drugs was how the first time you get stoned you don't actually get stoned. My mum described having this experience herself the first time she used cannabis which was completely different the second time and I think she observed it as a pretty common thing.
> 
> The first time I used cannabis myself I think this happenned to me actually I was age 17 having already been taking ecstasy and LSD for roughly one year.
> 
> I chewed up about 1.5 g of clean hash and the experience went completely over my head I wasn't consciously aware of what I was feeling but I was clearly stoned from my friends perspective and looking back afterwards because all I did was eat two boxes of apple pies and fall asleep lol!
> 
> My friend he was with me at the time commented that I was acting weird although I was just kind of sedated mainly.
> 
> When I saw my older peers who had given me a bit of hash who were longtime experienced cannabis users and they asked me "how did you get on with the blow?"
> 
> And I replied "it didn't do anything all I did was eat 2 boxes of apple pies and fall asleep".
> My exact words, to which Paul replied exactly "Sounds to me like you got wrecked". Followed by chuckles around the room.
> 
> So I definitely experienced this phenomena where I experienced the drug fully but not consciously observing or appreciating or accurately appraising the extent or nature of the effects.
> 
> I know with MDMA there is this widespread misconception and belief that your first time will be the best and you will never experience that again my first time certainly wasn't my best but it was only half of a weak pill, maybe 40-50 mg MDMA tops in a half.
> 
> But I do think it is possible with any substance to kind of miss the experience the first time for various psychological reasons to do with perception and maybe expectations and just catching up with our mind and making sense of things retrospectively which is unnecessary the next time when everything is automatically more familiar to be instantly engaged with.



I agree wit the phenomena. It took me about 6 weed smokes to ever "feel it" and about 5/6 attempts at "rolling" to ever truly get it either.




G_Chem said:


> Oh also guys another note....
> 
> Over the weekend I took a quarter tab of a popular SoCal press (G6 Crew) as a booster to my normal amazing shit.  If I was to listen to people on Reddit, these are supposed to be some of the best presses on the market, comparable to CP Dutch Presses.
> 
> As soon as I ate the quarter (estimated around 50mg) I noticed that the bitterness seemed different than all the other MDMA products I take.  It was like more sour and similar to APB substances.  The reagent tests matched MDMA identically, and I’m familiar enough testing APB’s to see the difference in reagent puddles.
> 
> Not long after eating the quarter I noticed a mongy somewhat spaced out state somewhat overshadowing the good MDMA I took earlier.  It felt identical to what everyone’s bitching about, similar but not what I’m looking for...
> 
> The quarter dulled the rest of the night.  I now understand what MehDMA is..
> 
> Thankfully this is not the usual for me.  But damn I spent a premium on these shitty fucks, cost x2 as much as my local product and not nearly as good.
> 
> I’ll hang onto the 1 and 3/4 I have left for future research purposes.  The difference in taste though was weird and these presses also went straight to black on Marquis.
> 
> Presses were Yellow G6 Piggy Banks.
> 
> -GC



There ya have it. We arent making this shit up. Does it have a very FAINT licorice smell? I notice meh-dma has a faint licorice smell and its also a slight  chemical/gas smell. While good mdma smacks you in the face with black licorice smell thats undeniable.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Lol I never said you guys were.. In fact I’ve probably been in this thread longer than any advocating that there IS a difference.

The thing with me is although I was a believer, I’d never encountered MehDMA myself.  Only once before this potentially, where I bought a Dutch press with a supposed 160+mg that didn’t do much when I gave it to someone else.

I find it interesting that it seems to be large scale pressers which the complaints are stemming from.

The one problem I still have with this whole argument, is just the wide differences in what people want to agree on as “good product.”  I think this shows that this may also be down to opinion as well.

From day 1 I’ve been saying there’s differences batch to batch..  I’ve felt this myself.  What I’m curious of is, to what extent is this MehDMA problem?..  I think it’s out there, but things like perma-tolerance/loss-of-magic, subjective opinion, set/setting, make getting the exact answer tricky.

I’ll concede once again though that I live in areas with supposedly good product, and that I may be a lucky one.  I remember seeing one poster saying the only times he’s gotten good product since the 2010 drought has been in the areas I “hang out.”  Even during the drought, my area still had good pills.

Im thinking an A/B purification on these presses may be in order to determine if this issue stems from impurities or not.  Now that I finally got my hands on some MehDMA..

-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

Just one really quick point to make which I did mean to a while ago actually:

I did encounter a lot of "shit" pills. It was always like a completely different drug. It didn't matter how many you took you just never would come close to the same experience.  Maybe it is related to the dilution and low dosage and possibly the way the binders and fillers affect the absorption etc.

And I was always very aware of distinct experiential differences between different batches of pills which I could never accept were down to dosage alone.

I mean this in regards to top quality MDMA pills not the rubbish ones I encountered.
I don't think we ever really thought about it deeply at all back then or questioned what made the rubbish pills so crap and effectively useless. Thousands on a desert island would be worthless.

But yes I have always been aware of a wide variation in quality from pill to pill, although very good pills were always around if you knew where to find them.


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> The one problem I still have with this whole argument, is just the wide differences in what people want to agree on as “good product.”  I think this shows that this may also be down to opinion as well.



Exactly...

A good example is the comedown/after effects, MehDMA or not, I've never had even the slightest hangover from MDMA in the ~40 times i've rolled in the last 9 years. Just like how every time I take MDMA i swear im going to fucking actually die on the comeup, yet my girlfriend has no idea what im talking about and has never experienced that whatsoever. Or I have friends who don't have a fucked up comeup, but feel like death for 2 weeks afterward, or some unfortunately experience both. It varies too much and I don't think its a good metric to "appraising" the MDMA in question.

Its a powerful substance that effects people differently and language feels limited when trying to describe the experience.



epic11 said:


> There ya have it. We arent making this shit up. Does it have a very FAINT licorice smell? I notice meh-dma has a faint licorice smell and its also a slight  chemical/gas smell. While good mdma smacks you in the face with black licorice smell thats undeniable.



I've got a bag of the same stuff in my desk drawer that made me realize some MDMA is really crappy, and that stuff absolutely reeeeeeeks of the black licorice/aniseed smell. It tested as perfectly good MDMA on reagent and spectrometers. But I have multiple friends who took 200-300mg of it and were disappointed, then 2 nights later had the same people had 100mg of the white/clear stuff that was 100% scentless and it was like their first time again. Both test so similarly a couple percentage points of MDMA couldn't make such a difference. Something is "missing" from the crappy stuff, its certainly MDMA (or has been discussed, something with the same molecular weight), but SOMETHING is wrong with it. I hold onto samples of both for future testing opportunities. The smelly crappy amber stuff without fail produces lackluster experiences in multiple settings and 30+ users

Before this happened, yeah, if I got MDMA that was brown/amber colored and smelled strongly of black licorice I'd think I hit the jackpot, and I have had MDMA like that was indeed good, but after encountering this stuff I don't think its the case. Afterall, the smell is coming from an impurity, a leftover from the production. I guarantee the stuff they're using for PTSD and clinical trials is nothing but a scentless white powder.


----------



## indigoaura

So, basically, we know very little at this point.

We do know that MDMA varies from batch to batch, despite being identified as MDMA by both reagent and spectrometer testing. We know that the variation is not tolerance, because it has been noted by new and experienced users across multiple experiments. 

We also know that there are compounds which would share the same molecular weight and potentially be misidentified by GCMS testing.

We know that "magic" MDMA still exists and can be identified by users based on experience, and that these same users can experience the less than ideal effects of "MehDMA."

We know that there are no 100% rules in regards to color, smell, form etc. 

We know that "MehDMA" does not appear to produce mydriasis, euphoria, or empathy even at high doses.


----------



## sassyfrass

mehdma is everywhwere, the only good molly ive had was from one source.
it came in both purple and brown chunks of crystal, and also in *brown sugar* form and Reaked (even lightly tasted) of rootbeer/sass.
it Produced immense euphoria, Closed eye colors, stoning intoxification and intensified all music at the 50-200mg range.

I only had marquis reagent at the time which quickly went black with no fizzing.

since then ive seen white, yellow, pink, black and grey crystal,
 all of which passed every reagent test for MDMA.
 They were much less potent and had less pupil dialation / visuals, felt less like a natural neurotransmitter and of a chemically feeling/taste.

Some made you puke, and your heart RACE. (probably from doing more to try and achieve the same effects.)


My theory, though not yet proven, is that what i first had was in fact MDA.
 That could possibly be what everyone is missing comapred to the strong stimulant effects of MDMA.
Thoughts?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

sassyfrass said:


> mehdma is everywhwere, the only good molly ive had was from one source.
> it came in both purple and brown chunks of crystal, and also in *brown sugar* form and Reaked (even lightly tasted) of rootbeer/sass.
> it Produced immense euphoria, Closed eye colors, stoning intoxification and intensified all music at the 50-200mg range.
> 
> I only had marquis reagent at the time which quickly went black with no fizzing.
> 
> since then ive seen white, yellow, pink, black and grey crystal,
> all of which passed every reagent test for MDMA.
> They were much less potent and had less pupil dialation / visuals, felt less like a natural neurotransmitter and of a chemically feeling/taste.
> 
> Some made you puke, and your heart RACE. (probably from doing more to try and achieve the same effects.)
> 
> 
> My theory, though not yet proven, is that what i first had was in fact MDA.
> That could possibly be what everyone is missing comapred to the strong stimulant effects of MDMA.
> Thoughts?


MDMA is acutally quite sedating MDA is more stimulating. Alot of ecasty pills had various stimulants added to them so you can acutally rave hard instead of just pure mdma where you might just wanna sit down and chill and vibe to the music


----------



## indigoaura

Hi Sassyfrass,

Welcome to the conversation. I think what you had first was probably what we are calling "magic" MDMA, and your other experiences are what we are referring to as "MehDMA." How long did your first experience last?

For me personally, I have sent magic MDMA to the lab and it was in fact MDMA and not MDA. I have also had pure MDA (sent that to a lab too), and it is not the same as a magic MDMA experience. It has less euphoria and more of a dopamine rush. Still very enjoyable. But, I don't think this is what everyone is experiencing.


----------



## sassyfrass

You're probably right. Dosing .1 at most at a time with 30-50mg redoses,
my experience would last all night long with subtle effects being felt the next morning,

and no hangover other than maybe a mild headache. Much easier going than say alcohol.

the recent experiences without the magic have really put me off rolling, even feeling lasting negative effects.
Perma tolerance seems unlikley as redosing the magic stuff would be amazing every time, even days in a row.


----------



## indigoaura

@sassyfrass Wish we had more concrete information for you. You are noticing the same things that we have been talking about here. There is a general consensus that something is wrong with some of the product that is currently circulating, but the product looks okay with testing. What we really need at this point is a more advanced lab we could send samples to, but we have not been able to find one yet. All the harm reduction labs just use standard GCMS testing, and we probably need more complex testing than that.


----------



## sassyfrass

Could it be chemists are strategically diluting and recrystallizing their rocks?
It sure makes sense from an economical standpoint.

Im also on the side of believing magic mdma is made with Safrole, being from a natural compound would make sense that it has a stronger affinity for our receptors.
it could be possible that new routes of syntheses procure an inferior product.

More research is needed, its sad that not many will experience the magic due to the current laws.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

sassyfrass said:


> Could it be chemists are strategically diluting and recrystallizing their rocks?
> It sure makes sense from an economical standpoint.
> 
> Im also on the side of believing magic mdma is made with Safrole, being from a natural compound would make sense that it has a stronger affinity for our receptors.
> it could be possible that new routes of syntheses procure an inferior product.
> 
> More research is needed, its sad that not many will experience the magic due to the current laws.


This is not the case, the synthesis routes end up the same safrole hasen't been used for a long time. What is probably going on is more and more people setup shop and completely fuck up crucial steps heavily cut and put the product to the market. The actual amount of mdma in what people are using is probably very small just enough added to test for mdma on test kits.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ Your analysis does not explain how product that is sent to a lab and is shown to be MDMA still produces this lackluster effect.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> @TripSitterNZ Your analysis does not explain how product that is sent to a lab and is shown to be MDMA still produces this lackluster effect.



Maybe not, but this does:

http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

and : https://academic.oup.com/chromsci/article-pdf/42/9/464/845872/42-9-464.pdf


----------



## G_Chem

^^Safrole is still in use, just much more rare to find..

And no each synthesis route has its own unique impurities which, unless the chemist is very good at what they do, some will inevitably make it to the final product.

I’ll agree that pure MDMA is the same one route to the next, but we aren’t talking pure MDMA.

Also chemists can and do (starting in the late 2000’s) add in other substances to help create larger “crystals.”  This is why MDMA was more often a crystalline powder, or at most small crystals, up until then.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Also thank you for that article three points.  You just found me my impurity that gave Leuckart it’s “magic.”

I always had a feeling it was a formyl intermediate but needed the proof.  That article was my proof.

So 90’s MDMA was different due to the presence of n-formyl-MDA!  The article gives no indication as to how much but another article discussing the Leuckart reaction when PMMA is involved said in the neighborhood of 20%.

20% of a very likely psychoactive substance would most definitely alter the experience.  This is why many MDMA activists of the time would say “ecstasy isn’t MDMA.”  Not only would it alter the effects but my guess is this impurity would also give a much stronger hangover like we saw in the 90’s as well.

Interesting stuff.

-GC


----------



## epic11

Sorry @G_Chem my "We arent making this shit up" was more a general statement and less directed at you. I know you been part of this for a while.


----------



## G_Chem

@epic11 - Ah my apologies man.

Yea I talked some shit about those particular presses on Reddit and got downvoted hard cuz of it lol.  I truly think part of the problem also stems from people’s egos and wanting to believe they all get the best product.

-GC


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> @epic11 - Ah my apologies man.
> 
> Yea I talked some shit about those particular presses on Reddit and got downvoted hard cuz of it lol.  I truly think part of the problem also stems from people’s egos and wanting to believe they all get the best product.
> 
> -GC



Probably. Thing is they arent wrong. They truly are "getting the best" of the CURRENT market. Those who know, are looking a bit deeper than that.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> So, basically, we know very little at this point.
> 
> We do know that MDMA varies from batch to batch, despite being identified as MDMA by both reagent and spectrometer testing. We know that the variation is not tolerance, because it has been noted by new and experienced users across multiple experiments.
> 
> We also know that there are compounds which would share the same molecular weight and potentially be misidentified by GCMS testing.
> 
> We know that "magic" MDMA still exists and can be identified by users based on experience, and that these same users can experience the less than ideal effects of "MehDMA."
> 
> We know that there are no 100% rules in regards to color, smell, form etc.
> 
> We know that "MehDMA" does not appear to produce mydriasis, euphoria, or empathy even at high doses.



Just re-posting @indigoaura 's thoughts here. Shes right on point with where we stand. Thanks for organizing what "we know" now.


----------



## psy997

Just picked up some crystal that looks different than any other I've seen - for the most part - and is touted from a trusted source as being amazing. I'm hoping to try it within the next week or two.


----------



## epic11

psy997 said:


> Just picked up some crystal that looks different than any other I've seen - for the most part - and is touted from a trusted source as being amazing. I'm hoping to try it within the next week or two.



Pics......


----------



## psy997

The white balance of the "m2" jpg is too warm, m3 is more accurate color wise, and it is noticeably blue as you can tell from the blurry "m1" photo. It does look grey enough to likely look similar to the grey MehDMA I've had here, so I'm really hoping that's not the case. And, we'll see.


----------



## indigoaura

@ThreePointCircle You linked that same article by Tamer Awad that we have been discussing. I keep trying to find contact info for him, because I think he could help us. However, I have not had any luck with that. The second article you posted is one I have not seen before, but it seems to be addressing the same issue.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

I personally found the best rolls years ago were employing a mix of mda and mdma 100-120mg mdma and 80 mg mda. I have had pills that have turned out to be mda before i personally found them the best due to more psychedelic properties. Though mda lacks the more magic love than mdma which is why its best in a combo together. MDA comedown is also very harsh which is why i don't use it anymore.


----------



## indigoaura

I have tried the MDA/MDMA combo in recent years to test out that theory, and it has not achieved the effects I wanted. 

Also, did several MDA only pills back in the day (Purple Ferraris, White Unicorns, White Doves). It is a good vibe, absolutely, but it is not the same as a high quality MDMA experience (which I personally prefer).


----------



## epic11

psy997 said:


> View attachment 13144View attachment 13145View attachment 13146The white balance of the "m2" jpg is too warm, m3 is more accurate color wise, and it is noticeably blue as you can tell from the blurry "m1" photo. It does look grey enough to likely look similar to the grey MehDMA I've had here, so I'm really hoping that's not the case. And, we'll see.



Ive seen greyish, and black. Not blueish/grayish/and black. You got a test kit? You are gonna wanna test this prior for yourself, and for the threads purpose.


----------



## psy997

epic11 said:


> Ive seen greyish, and black. Not blueish/grayish/and black. You got a test kit? You are gonna wanna test this prior for yourself, and for the threads purpose.



Test this prior to using it myself? I feel no need to do so. It's from a very well connected and experienced source who says he's done it himself and it's amazing, so at worst it's MehDMA, a little better a super similar substance to MDMA that feels even better than MehDMA. Either way, a test kit isn't necessary as MehDMA still tests as MDMA, and honestly, I doubt it's anything but Meh or MagicDMA. Though, having results for this thread would be useful, yes.


----------



## indigoaura

> So 90’s MDMA was different due to the presence of n-formyl-MDA! The article gives no indication as to how much but another article discussing the Leuckart reaction when PMMA is involved said in the neighborhood of 20%.



So, @G_Chem Could we imitate Leuckart MDMA by mixing MDMA and n-formyl-MDA in an 80/20 ratio?


----------



## epic11

psy997 said:


> Test this prior to using it myself? I feel no need to do so. It's from a very well connected and experienced source who says he's done it himself and it's amazing, so at worst it's MehDMA, a little better a super similar substance to MDMA that feels even better than MehDMA. Either way, a test kit isn't necessary as MehDMA still tests as MDMA, and honestly, I doubt it's anything but Meh or MagicDMA. Though, having results for this thread would be useful, yes.



"well connected and experienced source" doesnt mean shit. Ignorant. However, in relation more to the thread, you really should test it with a kit and post the results for us., as you suggested at the end of the post. Theres tons of things that can look like mdma. Im sure you are correct in your thoughts on a personal level, but still test it. please.


----------



## psy997

epic11 said:


> "well connected and experienced source" doesnt mean shit. I would call MYSELF that, and still tell everyone to test their shit. Ignorant. However, in relation more to the thread, you really should test it with a kit and post the results for us., as you suggested at the end of the post. Theres tons of things that can look like mdma. Im sure you are correct in your thoughts on a personal level, but still test it. please.



I don't appreciate being called ignorant, and I'll see if I can't get my hands on a test kit.


----------



## epic11

psy997 said:


> I don't appreciate being called ignorant, and I'll see if I can't get my hands on a test kit.



Thanks! It really means a lot, truly.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> @ThreePointCircle You linked that same article by Tamer Awad that we have been discussing. I keep trying to find contact info for him, because I think he could help us. However, I have not had any luck with that. The second article you posted is one I have not seen before, but it seems to be addressing the same issue.



I posted those links a while ago in this thread, but stuff gets easily buried here .  Looks like that Tamer Awad guy is now working as a chemist in Canada.

What were you hoping to get help from him about?  I guess the most beneficial thing would be to persuade the couple of pill testing services to up their game and differentiate properly (assume they are not?  with reference to that thesis and paper).

I think twice in this thread someone managed to use raman spec or something and find non-mdma.  Were these also sent off to a pill testing service to see if they were able to match the result?


----------



## indigoaura

@ThreePointCircle I think the hope would be that Tamer Awad, as a published researcher on the topic, could possibly assist in organizing a legitimate research study into this phenomenon, possibly with the goal of identifying a newly emerging psychoactive substance that is a danger to the public.


----------



## Dresden

Counterfeit product?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> @ThreePointCircle I think the hope would be that Tamer Awad, as a published researcher on the topic, could possibly assist in organizing a legitimate research study into this phenomenon, possibly with the goal of identifying a newly emerging psychoactive substance that is a danger to the public.



My gut feeling is that that guy is somewhat out of research now (I think he's working as a pharmacist) but I like the idea of finding a profiled researcher to help with advocacy.  I'll have a think.


----------



## mooka

Hi all... Mooka here...

a bit of background about myself:  european late 40's guy, clubber in mid 90's, always read a lot of literature about substances since teen years as personally is a very interesting subject, from a psychological and sociopolitical point of view.
I'd like to add few personal considerations about the mehDMA that is circulating now.

I'm not a professional chemist i'm just interested about chemistry at amateur level  but I can recall that in the Hive years people were trying different routes to aminate the PMK for the sake of simplicity or just plain experimentation, but most of the times they were obtaining an inferior product, inferior yields or both.
I think this as been stated recently in this thread. That would make a lot of sense to me, and would give me at least a clue on where to look at.

In fact thinking how mdma is mass produced today make me look in that direction... we have an hypothetical  one pot transformation from PMK-glycidate to mehDMA, the big labs don't care about quality of end product, it's all about money, they want a fast, less steps possible reaction that yields high quantities of the end product,  who care if this is active in the range of 100-150 mg while the amount produced every batch is kilos upon kilos? specially when the final product tests like the MagicDMA in both on the street test and lab ones.
Most of the people anyway have no clue about the differences between a good product and the poor one.
I'm not talking about a different molecule but possibly the way that the ketone was aminated would make a difference in pharmacokinetics , why I have no clue.

One interesting experiment would be to de-aminate the product and aminate again the ketone obtained using either leuckart (large scale production at the time) or Al/Hg amalgam for small scale.. and see if the product  resulting is different or not.
IF the product obtained becomes MAGIC then that would be interesting to ship both products to some testing lab and see if they can find any differences between the two.
Also a complete synthesis of magic would be very useful, you can't produce large quantities but believe it or not it can be produced nearly OTC.
Unless somebody provides some clean real product to compare with the Meh this is and will remain a discussion with no end. 

a little add: I wonder why MAPS has totally ignored the subject, I think it's extremely counterproductive for their activity not taking this in consideration. If somehow they use MehDMA in their trials I can foresee years of political work going down the drain in a second....


----------



## indigoaura

@mooka Admittedly, a lot of your post went over my head. How would someone go about de-aminating a product?

I think MAPS is just locked on to their goal of making MDMA a legal prescription by 2021. They don't have time to get de-railed with side research. I reached out to them too, but they never replied. 

There are quite a few people in this thread such as @Hilopsilo, @G_Chem, and @Le Junk who have encountered both products. We have samples to send in to a lab. The problem is that Energy Control and Ecstasy Data just do not perform the extent of testing that we need to really understand what is going on. @Hilopsilo submitted multiple samples to a lab (one magic, one not) and the lab showed no difference except percentage. So, clearly, whatever the labs are doing is just not doing it as far as really understanding the nuances of this issue.


----------



## G_Chem

@mooka- It appears you too have read enough of the Hive to also see they’ve been dealing with issues of varying product from varying synthetic routes since pretty much the beginning.

Your questions are ones I’ve pondered myself, and until we get a chemist in here with a lab to perform these experiments... We will continue to ponder.

This could all be answered by someone with the experience or willingness to experiment.

I think the best way to experiment on this would be to simply use some of the more common routes over the years.  It would also require that whoever doing the experiments have access to safrole and commercial PMK gkycidate.  Not an easy feat.

@Indigo- In theory, yes an 80/20 split of MDMA/n-formyl-MDA should give an experience akin to early 90’s MDMA.  Is it the best or what your looking for in particular?? I’m not sure.  I’d definitely be curious to try though.  The only way I can think to get pure n-formyl-MDA would be to use the Leuckart to obtain MDA but leave it at the intermediate stage.  Purify the intermediate and then mix with MDMA.  It would overall be easiest to just synthesize MDMA via Leuckart instead of trying to formulate it yourself.

Really not sure why chemists don’t go back to Leuckart with all the legends seemingly around it’s existence.. Speed seemed to be better according to some people top back then, also a time when Leuckart was used for amphetamines.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Am I allowed to post this? Seems to go into detail in a relatively easy to understand way. Goes over various synth methods/history/outcome etc.



			http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Prohibition/Drug%20Information/Ecstasy/Manufacturing%20Process/


----------



## Phobos

psy997 said:


> View attachment 13144View attachment 13145View attachment 13146The white balance of the "m2" jpg is too warm, m3 is more accurate color wise, and it is noticeably blue as you can tell from the blurry "m1" photo. It does look grey enough to likely look similar to the grey MehDMA I've had here, so I'm really hoping that's not the case. And, we'll see.



What I see in that pic makes me think of acetone wash MDMA after a few days, as it takes that darker and silverish tint.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> @mooka Admittedly, a lot of your post went over my head. How would someone go about de-aminating a product?
> 
> I think MAPS is just locked on to their goal of making MDMA a legal prescription by 2021. They don't have time to get de-railed with side research. I reached out to them too, but they never replied.
> 
> There are quite a few people in this thread such as @Hilopsilo, @G_Chem, and @Le Junk who have encountered both products. We have samples to send in to a lab. The problem is that Energy Control and Ecstasy Data just do not perform the extent of testing that we need to really understand what is going on. @Hilopsilo submitted multiple samples to a lab (one magic, one not) and the lab showed no difference except percentage. So, clearly, whatever the labs are doing is just not doing it as far as really understanding the nuances of this issue.



I've posted them earlier in the thread, but just for reference in that specific instance:

"We just received the results of the two MDMA samples back from the lab.

1) Brown
qNMR: 85% MDMA
MDP2P present in GC-MS analysis

2) Colourless
qNMR: 91% MDMA
No other compounds present

This is all the information that they were able to provide.
I hope this helps in your search for the answer!"

"colourless" being the sample that created the "magic" reliably at 100mg. The "brown" sample was certainly potent/intense even at 100mg, but uncannily just lacked that feeling that's difficult to put into words, even at much higher doses than 100mg (up to 200-300mg wasn't as good as ~120-150mg of the colourless, according to others who experienced both).

Unfortunately they wouldn't return my emails past this, I don't blame them as they may simply may not have the time or funding for these sorts of endeavors (their focus is opioid use HR sort of things). I was really bummed they wouldn't give info on the remainder percents of the MDMA, its possible that they mainly know how to find MDMA in a sample but going much deeper to get the other stuff would require higher expertise?


----------



## indigoaura

@Hilopsilo I know we discussed this before, but one of my MehDMA samples also had the MDP2P contamination.









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #2644 - Tigersblood, 2644
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




I still wonder if that compound blocks receptors or diminishes absorption of MDMA somehow.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> @mooka- It appears you too have read enough of the Hive to also see they’ve been dealing with issues of varying product from varying synthetic routes since pretty much the beginning.
> 
> Your questions are ones I’ve pondered myself, and until we get a chemist in here with a lab to perform these experiments... We will continue to ponder.
> 
> This could all be answered by someone with the experience or willingness to experiment.
> 
> I think the best way to experiment on this would be to simply use some of the more common routes over the years.  It would also require that whoever doing the experiments have access to safrole and commercial PMK gkycidate.  Not an easy feat.
> 
> @Indigo- In theory, yes an 80/20 split of MDMA/n-formyl-MDA should give an experience akin to early 90’s MDMA.  Is it the best or what your looking for in particular?? I’m not sure.  I’d definitely be curious to try though.  The only way I can think to get pure n-formyl-MDA would be to use the Leuckart to obtain MDA but leave it at the intermediate stage.  Purify the intermediate and then mix with MDMA.  It would overall be easiest to just synthesize MDMA via Leuckart instead of trying to formulate it yourself.
> 
> Really not sure why chemists don’t go back to Leuckart with all the legends seemingly around it’s existence.. Speed seemed to be better according to some people top back then, also a time when Leuckart was used for amphetamines.
> 
> -GC


leuckart is still used by many around the world. Though some of the biggest dutch ones have been caught using bmk. I have a feeling the mercury almunin method is what outputting all this trash mdma


----------



## G_Chem

^^No it isn’t, according to the research articles I’ve seen and all the minor evidence compiled together it died out mostly by the early 2000’s.  And mercury/al amalgam is probably the one route which I can say for certain produces good reliable product.  It was the common reduction of the 2000’s from what I can see.

These days they use a platinum hydrogenation if I’m remembering correctly.  They likely degrade the glycidate to PMK then aminate one pot without analyzing the intermediate or any impurities along the way.  Just trusting them Chinese to send a quality product... Heh.

Also Indigo that impurity was MDP2P-ol not MDP2P, similar but still different substances.  I’d wager both could potentially compete with MDMA for receptors.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> ^^No it isn’t, according to the research articles I’ve seen and all the minor evidence compiled together it died out mostly by the early 2000’s.  And mercury/al amalgam is probably the one route which I can say for certain produces good reliable product.  It was the common reduction of the 2000’s from what I can see.
> 
> These days they use a platinum hydrogenation if I’m remembering correctly.  They likely degrade the glycidate to PMK then aminate one pot without analyzing the intermediate or any impurities along the way.  Just trusting them Chinese to send a quality product... Heh.
> 
> Also Indigo that impurity was MDP2P-ol not MDP2P, similar but still different substances.  I’d wager both could potentially compete with MDMA for receptors.
> 
> -GC


i have seen many lab busts where they had foramide in the news indicating leuckart is still used for small - medium scale opeartors, meanwhile mecurcy/al amalgam is a small scale method, plantium hydogenation is expensive plantium isn't cheap. In holland all methods are been used by different people depedning on what they get their hands on. While australians have used more one pot methods in the past, The dutch usually don't but things have changed in the last few years with the demand growing for meth and speed they will make meth speed and mdma in the same lab


----------



## G_Chem

Is there any way you can link that?? Biscuit provided an article a while back which was from Australia stating that Platinum hydrogenation was the most commonly used.  Leuckart wasn’t even mentioned from what I can remember.

You are right that there was a time when speed (amphetamine sulphate) and mdma were synthesized together.  This was back in the 90’s when MDMA was freshly illegal and the already set up amphetamine labs could easily add in MDMA to their repertoire.

Now the more I speak of this the more I hold fast in my convictions because Leuckart isn’t ideal for methamphetamine, much better for regular amphetamine.  Labs which produce meth don’t hardly ever use Leuckart, so a higher demand for meth would necessitate that the two be synthesized together.

I ask you please provide evidence of your claims.  There’s research articles provided throughout this thread which back up mine, if I gotta go digging I’ll do so but only when I see something in professional writing that supports your argument.

With all that said, you are from New Zealand correct? I could see if your speaking of your particular area, a potential for a niche market with unique chemistry trends.

-GC


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> I've posted them earlier in the thread, but just for reference in that specific instance:
> 
> "We just received the results of the two MDMA samples back from the lab.
> 
> 1) Brown
> qNMR: 85% MDMA
> MDP2P present in GC-MS analysis
> 
> 2) Colourless
> qNMR: 91% MDMA
> No other compounds present
> 
> This is all the information that they were able to provide.
> I hope this helps in your search for the answer!"
> 
> "colourless" being the sample that created the "magic" reliably at 100mg. The "brown" sample was certainly potent/intense even at 100mg, but uncannily just lacked that feeling that's difficult to put into words, even at much higher doses than 100mg (up to 200-300mg wasn't as good as ~120-150mg of the colourless, according to others who experienced both).
> 
> Unfortunately they wouldn't return my emails past this, I don't blame them as they may simply may not have the time or funding for these sorts of endeavors (their focus is opioid use HR sort of things). I was really bummed they wouldn't give info on the remainder percents of the MDMA, its possible that they mainly know how to find MDMA in a sample but going much deeper to get the other stuff would require higher expertise?




so many great new posts! Wow. Thanks for this one more specifically hilo. So you claim the brown was "mehdma" and the colourless "magic" ? Did you ever post a shot of these batches? Id love to see.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> Is there any way you can link that?? Biscuit provided an article a while back which was from Australia stating that Platinum hydrogenation was the most commonly used.  Leuckart wasn’t even mentioned from what I can remember.
> 
> You are right that there was a time when speed (amphetamine sulphate) and mdma were synthesized together.  This was back in the 90’s when MDMA was freshly illegal and the already set up amphetamine labs could easily add in MDMA to their repertoire.
> 
> Now the more I speak of this the more I hold fast in my convictions because Leuckart isn’t ideal for methamphetamine, much better for regular amphetamine.  Labs which produce meth don’t hardly ever use Leuckart, so a higher demand for meth would necessitate that the two be synthesized together.
> 
> I ask you please provide evidence of your claims.  There’s research articles provided throughout this thread which back up mine, if I gotta go digging I’ll do so but only when I see something in professional writing that supports your argument.
> 
> With all that said, you are from New Zealand correct? I could see if your speaking of your particular area, a potential for a niche market with unique chemistry trends.
> 
> -GC


Yes my area has very different chemical trends due to alot of restrictions meaning the mdma here is a feeling of mda and mdma but presses come from holland and australia and are very good mdma, but i have been raving in holland and australia years ago i personally find the dutch keep the good stuff to there local supply and the shit they send overseas is for money https://www.dutchnews.nl/?s=mdma lists dutch lab busts, some of them still make huge amounts of speed along with mdma They are more just having 3 labs setup in the same location to make meth via different routes aswell. Blue punishers are the best pills in the world containg  up to 300 mg mdma https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=7249 Blue pushiners have been appearing around these parts since 2017 and will def you give the magic of mdma. and should be halfed  that are present in holland uk australia and new zealand. It seems the plantium hydrogentation was been used by mdma seized that was coming from czech republic https://www.acic.gov.au/sites/g/fil...type_stimulants_iddr_2016-17.pdf?v=1537141613 it also lists in here how leckuahrt is reemerging by australian labs since 2016


----------



## Hilopsilo

epic11 said:


> so many great new posts! Wow. Thanks for this one more specifically hilo. So you claim the brown was "mehdma" and the colourless "magic" ? Did you ever post a shot of these batches? Id love to see.



I could post pictures but im not sure what good it would do so i dont think i can be bothered lol. The brown MehDMA is your run of the mill sassy-smelling brown-amber crystals. The Magic stuff was 100% transparent colorless crystals, so clear you could hold it up to your eye and see right through it, crushes down to a fine white powder, 100% scentless. I was even skeptical of it as i hadnt encountered MDMA like that in the past, but the person i got it from i trust a lot and it was tested. All I have left of that is a tiny sample to be sent into a lab if the opportunity arises, dont have any photos of the magic stuff when it was in larger pieces, its just a tiny bag of white powder now.

I posted a while back somewhere in the thread, a post from another thread on here where people were showing off their stashes, and one of the pictures of their MDMA was EXACTLY how the magic stuff i had looked. you'd have to dig to find that in this thread though.

Now, what was interesting was doing some window shopping on some markets, out of thousands and thousands of listings, i could only find a couple that the photo resembled the magic clear stuff AND, the vendors of those products would mention vague stuff about crappy mdma going around. Stuff like "this is synthesized and not cooked" or "lots of toxins left in other vendors mdma", which means little or nothing without specifics or substantiation.


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> I could post pictures but im not sure what good it would do so i dont think i can be bothered lol. The brown MehDMA is your run of the mill sassy-smelling brown-amber crystals. The Magic stuff was 100% transparent colorless crystals, so clear you could hold it up to your eye and see right through it, crushes down to a fine white powder, 100% scentless. I was even skeptical of it as i hadnt encountered MDMA like that in the past, but the person i got it from i trust a lot and it was tested. All I have left of that is a tiny sample to be sent into a lab if the opportunity arises, dont have any photos of the magic stuff when it was in larger pieces, its just a tiny bag of white powder now.
> 
> I posted a while back somewhere in the thread, a post from another thread on here where people were showing off their stashes, and one of the pictures of their MDMA was EXACTLY how the magic stuff i had looked. you'd have to dig to find that in this thread though.
> 
> Now, what was interesting was doing some window shopping on some markets, out of thousands and thousands of listings, i could only find a couple that the photo resembled the magic clear stuff AND, the vendors of those products would mention vague stuff about crappy mdma going around. Stuff like "this is synthesized and not cooked" or "lots of toxins left in other vendors mdma", which means little or nothing without specifics or substantiation.



I have transparent colorless crystals that do not produce the magic. Thought i could compare.


----------



## G_Chem

@TripSitterNZ - Thank you for your response.  First off you are indeed right, it appears the Leuckart is coming back down in Aus at least I missed that when I looked at the article last time.

That said, the article is the one Biscuit linked.  Notice when looking at the table showing percentages based on bulk and not number of seizures, the platinum hydrogenation rose to 98% for 2016.  And looking at years past it was on the rise..

Platinum can be an expensive catalyst but with proper technique much of it can be recovered and recycled to be used again and again.  So the hydrogenation is only expensive if your lazy and wasteful which I doubt professional labs are when it comes to their bottom line.

Super interesting though that Leuckart is coming back..  God I wanna find me some lol.  I’ve been seeing a few Marquis puddles too that resemble the 90’s black to dark blue reactions.

@epic11- Post pictures if you can.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I went through the whole thread and made notes for myself.  I'm getting completely tilted and its bringing flashbacks of doing lit reviews, but in case it's a help to anyone, here it is.  Might be some mistakes and I probably could have done with restructuring but I don't feel like editing.  Numbers are message numbers.  Divide by 20 for approx page number.


User reports noticing experience differences between batches​1, 6, 12, 44, 57, 105, 355, 356​MehDMA vs good both lab tested as MDMA and nothing else​1, 42, 454, 1115​Testing​19, 123, 131, 137, 144 - 150, 152 – 157, 175, 188, 211, 214, 217 - 218, 222, 224, 240, 243 - 244, 246 - 247, 325, 340, 363, 370, 379, 396, 405, 414, 417, 457, 460, 489, 523, 541, 543, 563, 703, 722 - 723, 745, 780, 785, 789, 808, 999 – 1000, 1012, 1019, 1041, 1171, 1183 – 1186, 1366, 1471, 1473, 1502, 1525, 1580, 1583, 1593, 1695, 1769, 1792, 1806​Issues with labs​489, 523, 543, 563, 595, 703, 722 – 723, 780, 1019, 1116, 1158, 1501​Dose​27, 89, 90​Stereoisomer​16, 27, 36 - 37, 55, 65, 68 - 69, 73, 113, 117, 123 - 124, 127 - 131, 139 - 150, 152 – 157, 159 – 163, 165 - 166, 197 – 203, 345, 364, 371, 374, 506, 817, 820 – 822, 827, 835, 850, 852 – 853, 862, 867, 916, 1127​Salts​38, 265 – 266, 278, 405, 429, 434, 806, 814, 820, 822, 826, 1136 – 1137, 1141 – 1142, 1144, 1146​Structural isomers​211, 214, 217, 218, 222, 224, 240, 243 - 244, 265, 340, 415, 595, 761 – 779, 1583​Impurities​343 – 345, 365, 406 – 409, 466 + 470, 474, 555, 560, 574 - 575, 589, 622, 653 – 655, 752 - 753, 755 - 758, 761 – 779, 817, 851, 854, 869, 873, 911, 1093, 1096, 1249, 1269, 1275 - 1280, 1290, 1320, 1358, 1366​MDP2P, 2-3 MDMA, MDP2Pol, MDP2P Glycidate, etc…​80, 113, 209, 574, 589, 693, 749, 752 – 753, 755 – 758, 761 – 779, 793, 794, 817, 821, 996 – 1000, 1241 – 1245, 1249, 1264, 1269, 1275 – 1280, 1290, 1358​MDPH​1458, 1461 – 1466, 1477, 1479, 1484, 1561​Capsule​1417 – 1432, 1780 – 1782​Manufacturing history​102, 278, 294, 546, 575, 622, 647, 650, 742, 799, 857, 858, 873, 982, 1026, 1027, 1210, 1294, 1296, 1613 – 1614, 1780, 2024​Purification​366, 389, 579, 581, 609, 610, 613 – 617​Subjective definition of MehDMA vs MDMA​401, 538, 554, 589, 620, 651 - 652, 657, 812, 1042, 1139, 1208, 1607, 1618, 1619​Test results​1, 693, 749, 806, 817, 828, 833, 848, 996, 1127, 1241, 1387, 1458, 1484, 1963​Recrystallisation/washing​838, 841, 843, 849, 859 – 860, 863 – 866, 961 – 969, 973 – 978, 981, 988, 993, 1414 – 1415​Other points​739, 1156​


----------



## AutoTripper

ThreePointCircle said:


> I went through the whole thread and made notes for myself.  I'm getting completely tilted and its bringing flashbacks of doing lit reviews, but in case it's a help to anyone, here it is.  Might be some mistakes and I probably could have done with restructuring but I don't feel like editing.  Numbers are message numbers.  Divide by 20 for approx page number.
> 
> 
> User reports noticing experience differences between batches​1, 6, 12, 44, 57, 105, 355, 356​MehDMA vs good both lab tested as MDMA and nothing else​1, 42, 454, 1115​Testing​19, 123, 131, 137, 144 - 150, 152 – 157, 175, 188, 211, 214, 217 - 218, 222, 224, 240, 243 - 244, 246 - 247, 325, 340, 363, 370, 379, 396, 405, 414, 417, 457, 460, 489, 523, 541, 543, 563, 703, 722 - 723, 745, 780, 785, 789, 808, 999 – 1000, 1012, 1019, 1041, 1171, 1183 – 1186, 1366, 1471, 1473, 1502, 1525, 1580, 1583, 1593, 1695, 1769, 1792, 1806​Issues with labs​489, 523, 543, 563, 595, 703, 722 – 723, 780, 1019, 1116, 1158, 1501​Dose​27, 89, 90​Stereoisomer​16, 27, 36 - 37, 55, 65, 68 - 69, 73, 113, 117, 123 - 124, 127 - 131, 139 - 150, 152 – 157, 159 – 163, 165 - 166, 197 – 203, 345, 364, 371, 374, 506, 817, 820 – 822, 827, 835, 850, 852 – 853, 862, 867, 916, 1127​Salts​38, 265 – 266, 278, 405, 429, 434, 806, 814, 820, 822, 826, 1136 – 1137, 1141 – 1142, 1144, 1146​Structural isomers​211, 214, 217, 218, 222, 224, 240, 243 - 244, 265, 340, 415, 595, 761 – 779, 1583​Impurities​343 – 345, 365, 406 – 409, 466 + 470, 474, 555, 560, 574 - 575, 589, 622, 653 – 655, 752 - 753, 755 - 758, 761 – 779, 817, 851, 854, 869, 873, 911, 1093, 1096, 1249, 1269, 1275 - 1280, 1290, 1320, 1358, 1366​MDP2P, 2-3 MDMA, MDP2Pol, MDP2P Glycidate, etc…​80, 113, 209, 574, 589, 693, 749, 752 – 753, 755 – 758, 761 – 779, 793, 794, 817, 821, 996 – 1000, 1241 – 1245, 1249, 1264, 1269, 1275 – 1280, 1290, 1358​MDPH​1458, 1461 – 1466, 1477, 1479, 1484, 1561​Capsule​1417 – 1432, 1780 – 1782​Manufacturing history​102, 278, 294, 546, 575, 622, 647, 650, 742, 799, 857, 858, 873, 982, 1026, 1027, 1210, 1294, 1296, 1613 – 1614, 1780, 2024​Purification​366, 389, 579, 581, 609, 610, 613 – 617​Subjective definition of MehDMA vs MDMA​401, 538, 554, 589, 620, 651 - 652, 657, 812, 1042, 1139, 1208, 1607, 1618, 1619​Test results​1, 693, 749, 806, 817, 828, 833, 848, 996, 1127, 1241, 1387, 1458, 1484, 1963​Recrystallisation/washing​838, 841, 843, 849, 859 – 860, 863 – 866, 961 – 969, 973 – 978, 981, 988, 993, 1414 – 1415​Other points​739, 1156​


You forgot my 45th sneeze on page 87 lol! Good effort man in an attempt to keep an objective overview of some sorts. (I'm sure I blinked as well, twice in fact. ?)


----------



## G_Chem

@ThreePointCircle-  Holy shit man great job!!!  This thread is unwieldy at this point so this will help tremendously for those skipping to the last few pages.

We should one day try to condense a lot of this information or at least somebody should make sure to save this as we go.  There’s shit in here that’s invaluable IMo.

-Gc


----------



## Echotango

Sometimes people use literally the BARE MINIMUM like for Example 30MG MDMA Per Pill to trick the MDMA Tester Kits into people thinking they got some strong and pure Pills since they turn super DARK purple and FAST. Yet you end up needing like 10 Pills to get a good Roll on so keep that factor in mind. It could be because your body takes 3 Months to fully Recover but for the High MDMA Produces it takes 5-6 Months of not using for a Receptor to heal that causes for lack of a better term as I forget where the Research Link is that I Googled how it takes 5-6 Months for a Receptor to heal that causes a "Tidal Wave of feel good chemicals like Serotonin, Oxytocin" etc. etc. compared to just a large increase in Serotonin etc. when using before the 5-6  Month abstinence use mark. 

So it could be the fact that nobody knows the exact time frame between use to prevent the "loss of the magic" but that could be the problem just pointing it out and it sucks I know but take that as a Factor in your problem please don't just disregard it since there are things you can do like I read "Saint Johns Wort" can like Upregulate the Serotonin Receptor that have been damaged but you need to wait a minimum of like 21 Days after using Saint Johns Wort before using MDMA again or it can cause Serotonin Syndrome or something bad like that I can't remember... just remember that part since this is a serious matter.


----------



## Phobos

There are plenty of posts here that describe how the proper MDMA would get people high in the same way no matter the length of the period of abstinence, be it 2 days in a row, 1 week apart, etc.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Thanks AT and Gc.  I missed a category of synthesis pathways discussion, although some of that is in the manufacturing history.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Phobos said:


> There are plenty of posts here that describe how the proper MDMA would get them high in the same way no matter the length of the period of abstinence, be it 2 days in a row, 1 week apart, etc.



Absolutely.  I'm amazed at how reckless some people are but still have awesome experiences.  Echotango, I was beginning to believe in that 'loss of magic' hype but, in retrospect, my return to MDMA happened just about the time everything was turning to crap in the UK and on the DMs.  I'm now more inclined to lump that theory into the same bin I chucked lsd flashbacks.  Although diminishing returns on a short timescale makes sense of course.


----------



## Levodex

consumer said:


> It is a common complaint in EADD. The theory is the precursor being used by the dutch labs creates a different racemic mix of mdma which while being the same chemical is producing mongy non euphoric mdma.


I think you’re onto something there. Is MDMA racemic in the same way as amphetamine?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@Levodex see messages: 16, 27, 36 - 37, 55, 65, 68 - 69, 73, 113, 117, 123 - 124, 127 - 131, 139 - 150, 152 – 157, 159 – 163, 165 - 166, 197 – 203, 345, 364, 371, 374, 506, 817, 820 – 822, 827, 835, 850, 852 – 853, 862, 867, 916, 1127 

@indigoaura any more progress with TICTAC?  I was thinking of contacting WEDINOS if no one else has


----------



## epic11

ThreePointCircle said:


> I went through the whole thread and made notes for myself.  I'm getting completely tilted and its bringing flashbacks of doing lit reviews, but in case it's a help to anyone, here it is.  Might be some mistakes and I probably could have done with restructuring but I don't feel like editing.  Numbers are message numbers.  Divide by 20 for approx page number.
> 
> 
> User reports noticing experience differences between batches​1, 6, 12, 44, 57, 105, 355, 356​MehDMA vs good both lab tested as MDMA and nothing else​1, 42, 454, 1115​Testing​19, 123, 131, 137, 144 - 150, 152 – 157, 175, 188, 211, 214, 217 - 218, 222, 224, 240, 243 - 244, 246 - 247, 325, 340, 363, 370, 379, 396, 405, 414, 417, 457, 460, 489, 523, 541, 543, 563, 703, 722 - 723, 745, 780, 785, 789, 808, 999 – 1000, 1012, 1019, 1041, 1171, 1183 – 1186, 1366, 1471, 1473, 1502, 1525, 1580, 1583, 1593, 1695, 1769, 1792, 1806​Issues with labs​489, 523, 543, 563, 595, 703, 722 – 723, 780, 1019, 1116, 1158, 1501​Dose​27, 89, 90​Stereoisomer​16, 27, 36 - 37, 55, 65, 68 - 69, 73, 113, 117, 123 - 124, 127 - 131, 139 - 150, 152 – 157, 159 – 163, 165 - 166, 197 – 203, 345, 364, 371, 374, 506, 817, 820 – 822, 827, 835, 850, 852 – 853, 862, 867, 916, 1127​Salts​38, 265 – 266, 278, 405, 429, 434, 806, 814, 820, 822, 826, 1136 – 1137, 1141 – 1142, 1144, 1146​Structural isomers​211, 214, 217, 218, 222, 224, 240, 243 - 244, 265, 340, 415, 595, 761 – 779, 1583​Impurities​343 – 345, 365, 406 – 409, 466 + 470, 474, 555, 560, 574 - 575, 589, 622, 653 – 655, 752 - 753, 755 - 758, 761 – 779, 817, 851, 854, 869, 873, 911, 1093, 1096, 1249, 1269, 1275 - 1280, 1290, 1320, 1358, 1366​MDP2P, 2-3 MDMA, MDP2Pol, MDP2P Glycidate, etc…​80, 113, 209, 574, 589, 693, 749, 752 – 753, 755 – 758, 761 – 779, 793, 794, 817, 821, 996 – 1000, 1241 – 1245, 1249, 1264, 1269, 1275 – 1280, 1290, 1358​MDPH​1458, 1461 – 1466, 1477, 1479, 1484, 1561​Capsule​1417 – 1432, 1780 – 1782​Manufacturing history​102, 278, 294, 546, 575, 622, 647, 650, 742, 799, 857, 858, 873, 982, 1026, 1027, 1210, 1294, 1296, 1613 – 1614, 1780, 2024​Purification​366, 389, 579, 581, 609, 610, 613 – 617​Subjective definition of MehDMA vs MDMA​401, 538, 554, 589, 620, 651 - 652, 657, 812, 1042, 1139, 1208, 1607, 1618, 1619​Test results​1, 693, 749, 806, 817, 828, 833, 848, 996, 1127, 1241, 1387, 1458, 1484, 1963​Recrystallisation/washing​838, 841, 843, 849, 859 – 860, 863 – 866, 961 – 969, 973 – 978, 981, 988, 993, 1414 – 1415​Other points​739, 1156​



*golf claps*


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

ThreePointCircle said:


> I went through the whole thread and made notes for myself.  I'm getting completely tilted and its bringing flashbacks of doing lit reviews, but in case it's a help to anyone, here it is.  Might be some mistakes and I probably could have done with restructuring but I don't feel like editing.  Numbers are message numbers.  Divide by 20 for approx page number.
> 
> 
> User reports noticing experience differences between batches​1, 6, 12, 44, 57, 105, 355, 356​MehDMA vs good both lab tested as MDMA and nothing else​1, 42, 454, 1115​Testing​19, 123, 131, 137, 144 - 150, 152 – 157, 175, 188, 211, 214, 217 - 218, 222, 224, 240, 243 - 244, 246 - 247, 325, 340, 363, 370, 379, 396, 405, 414, 417, 457, 460, 489, 523, 541, 543, 563, 703, 722 - 723, 745, 780, 785, 789, 808, 999 – 1000, 1012, 1019, 1041, 1171, 1183 – 1186, 1366, 1471, 1473, 1502, 1525, 1580, 1583, 1593, 1695, 1769, 1792, 1806​Issues with labs​489, 523, 543, 563, 595, 703, 722 – 723, 780, 1019, 1116, 1158, 1501​Dose​27, 89, 90​Stereoisomer​16, 27, 36 - 37, 55, 65, 68 - 69, 73, 113, 117, 123 - 124, 127 - 131, 139 - 150, 152 – 157, 159 – 163, 165 - 166, 197 – 203, 345, 364, 371, 374, 506, 817, 820 – 822, 827, 835, 850, 852 – 853, 862, 867, 916, 1127​Salts​38, 265 – 266, 278, 405, 429, 434, 806, 814, 820, 822, 826, 1136 – 1137, 1141 – 1142, 1144, 1146​Structural isomers​211, 214, 217, 218, 222, 224, 240, 243 - 244, 265, 340, 415, 595, 761 – 779, 1583​Impurities​343 – 345, 365, 406 – 409, 466 + 470, 474, 555, 560, 574 - 575, 589, 622, 653 – 655, 752 - 753, 755 - 758, 761 – 779, 817, 851, 854, 869, 873, 911, 1093, 1096, 1249, 1269, 1275 - 1280, 1290, 1320, 1358, 1366​MDP2P, 2-3 MDMA, MDP2Pol, MDP2P Glycidate, etc…​80, 113, 209, 574, 589, 693, 749, 752 – 753, 755 – 758, 761 – 779, 793, 794, 817, 821, 996 – 1000, 1241 – 1245, 1249, 1264, 1269, 1275 – 1280, 1290, 1358​MDPH​1458, 1461 – 1466, 1477, 1479, 1484, 1561​Capsule​1417 – 1432, 1780 – 1782​Manufacturing history​102, 278, 294, 546, 575, 622, 647, 650, 742, 799, 857, 858, 873, 982, 1026, 1027, 1210, 1294, 1296, 1613 – 1614, 1780, 2024​Purification​366, 389, 579, 581, 609, 610, 613 – 617​Subjective definition of MehDMA vs MDMA​401, 538, 554, 589, 620, 651 - 652, 657, 812, 1042, 1139, 1208, 1607, 1618, 1619​Test results​1, 693, 749, 806, 817, 828, 833, 848, 996, 1127, 1241, 1387, 1458, 1484, 1963​Recrystallisation/washing​838, 841, 843, 849, 859 – 860, 863 – 866, 961 – 969, 973 – 978, 981, 988, 993, 1414 – 1415​Other points​739, 1156​



Mate, I seriously think you need to lay off the phet for a while... ?


----------



## Star winx

Kinda off subject a little but has anyone noticed the difference in dex now compared with dex in 2000?


----------



## Phobos

Star winx said:


> Kinda off subject a little but has anyone noticed the difference in dex now compared with dex in 2000?



Dex? Whats that?


----------



## AutoTripper

I assume DXM?? Certainly very random anyhow.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Phobos said:


> Dex? Whats that?


must be dextros for adhd or amphetamine


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> must be dextros for adhd or amphetamine


Okay you know way more than me on all things so I will trust your judgement, especially seeing as that actually makes sense and is a lot more relevant and connected to the topic at hand.


----------



## heatlessbbq

This thread is heavy with posts and according to the Title... I feel this topic needs to be well respect or relayed...

"What is wrong with the MDMA available today?"

My opinion is that there is something missing...

We adopted a new lifestyle that blew Our minds.
And then It's taken away from US?... What is going on, Mates?


----------



## heatlessbbq

Most molly going around these days are baggies of MDA. No MDMA.

And where are those ILY, ecstasy tablets? 5 a pop. Now it's 20?
What gives, Mates?


----------



## Phobos

heatlessbbq said:


> Most molly going around these days are baggies of MDA. No MDMA.


Are you aware of the tests that say that MDMA is prevalent compared to MDA nowadays?
At least, in the samples that are tested, but surely there must be some connection.
And anyway did you say this because you or someone close sent samples to be tested?
And what part of the world are you talking about?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

There's been a couple of posts about distillation of the MDMA freebase (e.g. 579, 581, 897, 1695).

Assuming the primary cause of mehdma is impurities (a big assumption I know, but some of the test results posted here have hinted towards that), wouldn't this essentially 'fix' the bad product?


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Yup.  Shit an A/B extraction with the proper washes would too, and is easier for most reading this thread to try.  I’ve seen beautiful crystals form from a proper A/B, followed by dry acetone wash and re-X.

Distillation of the freebase though is huge and if a chemist were to perform an A/B followed by a careful fractional distillation, that would be some very pure product.  I’d guess 98+%.

I’ve been curious to try a mini A/B on the supposedly awesome G6 pills I have..

If anyone needs tips on any purification techniques don’t hesitate to ask.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Phobos said:


> Dex? Whats that?


Dextro-amphetamine


----------



## G_Chem

heatlessbbq said:


> Most molly going around these days are baggies of MDA. No MDMA.
> 
> And where are those ILY, ecstasy tablets? 5 a pop. Now it's 20?
> What gives, Mates?



Do you do any research at all or just spout shit?? Have you read any of this thread? Have you studied any of this topic in the slightest? I already know the answers to these questions based on this and other posts.

-GC


----------



## Phobos

Levodex said:


> I think you’re onto something there. Is MDMA racemic in the same way as amphetamine?



Yes, it is racemic. IIRC someone experimented with both isomers and with each the experience was completely different from racemic.


----------



## psy997

G_Chem said:


> If anyone needs tips on any purification techniques don’t hesitate to ask.
> 
> -GC




I would love to get a concise and comprehensive guide (tek?) for purifying MDMA at home.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> ^^^Yup.  Shit an A/B extraction with the proper washes would too, and is easier for most reading this thread to try.  I’ve seen beautiful crystals form from a proper A/B, followed by dry acetone wash and re-X.



Would this get rid of, for example, the MDP2P found in @Hilopsilo 's brown sample?


----------



## G_Chem

@psy997 - I’ll write up a comprehensive step by step guide here in a day or so.  Sorry I haven’t already.  Also to any mods, I’m assuming purification is ok when talking chemistry right?

@ThreePointCircle - Yessir, an acetone wash would actually grab a lot of it just by itself but to get it all you’d need to do an A/B or repeat acetone washes followed by re-X in isopropyl a few times which honestly the A/B is easier IMO.

The A/B could give us indication on whether it’s precursor oils like MDP2P causing the problems, or another amine like MDPH which would be not be taken out by the A/B.

In other words an a/b could tell us a lot and give us better direction on future experiments if it seems to fail in producing what we want.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Ah right.  Thanks for the help @G_Chem .  I've tried acetone wash and re-X in isopropyl before.  It possibly made a small improvement but not much.  I've been reading up/watching vids on fractional distillation and would fancy giving it a go if I can source the components without a crazy price tag.  Also, as it appears to be all about patience and diligence I guess its with practicing on some other known substances before jumping into the deep end.


----------



## heatlessbbq

All hail G_Chem.


----------



## G_Chem

@ThreePointCircle - Without getting too specific, it isn’t too pricey to get yourself a little vacuum fractional distillation setup these days.

The only issue is amounts of MDMA your working with.  Read up on micro distillation if your going to be working with a small amount.  Obviously trying to distill a gram of MDMA freebase in a regular setup will have a lot of loss from the size of the setup.

I’m very curious to hear your results.  Having this distillation setup, hot plate/mag stirrer, etc can be useful for a lot of things like making herbal medicines, flavor extracts and what not.

Honestly if someone were to perform an A/B, distill, and then re-X, this would likely be more pure than any MDMA said someone has ever come across before.

-GC


----------



## mooka

G_Chem said:


> @psy997 - I’ll write up a comprehensive step by step guide here in a day or so.  Sorry I haven’t already.  Also to any mods, I’m assuming purification is ok when talking chemistry right?
> 
> In other words an a/b could tell us a lot and give us better direction on future experiments if it seems to fail in producing what we want.
> 
> -GC


That would be great...

a question for you, it is possible to revert the reductive amination process back to the ketone?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@G_Chem thanks for the tip, I'll look up micro distillation.  I guess my priority is quality, not so worried about yield (as long as its enough to try out).  My questions at the moment is what to look for in terms of cost effective pump and hot plate, stirrer.  Seems like the glassware is reasonably cheap to get, but I don't know what counts as a false economy as I have no experience.


----------



## Dresden

The MDMA available today doesn't work because of (1) widespread broadcast radio frequency destructive interference using the opposite of MDMA's resonance frequency or (2) because we are in Hades where most of us don't realize that we died decades ago or (3) both (1) & (2)?  I really couldn't tell you.  Except that I was murdered by police or police impersonators in Athens, Georgia in September, 1999.  It was a point blank headshot in my apartment in a pre dawn raid.  My naked body was dumped in the nearby Oconee river.  Didn't have any great MDMA rolls again in particular after that.


----------



## Phobos

My experience with acetone wash MDMA is that it seems slightly less irritating when insufflated and it seems slightly more potent by weight, but not more than 20% IME.
This would fit with the theory of inactive cuts used to increase crystal size.


----------



## AutoTripper

Just have to say guys, it would be so nice if everybody who posts could learn to do so without being so unnecessarily flippant, facetious and pedantic.

I dont understand the indirect, childish immaturity and mocking nature of it? Can't we all just be adults and simply say what we mean as clearly as possible for others to understand without playing mind games or permanently enjoying an entirely private joke?


----------



## psy997

AutoTripper said:


> I dont understand the indirect, childish immaturity and mocking nature of it? Can't we all just be adults and simply say what we mean as clearly as possible for others to understand without playing mind games or permanently enjoying an entirely private joke?



?


----------



## epic11

Dresden said:


> The MDMA available today doesn't work because of (1) widespread broadcast radio frequency destructive interference using the opposite of MDMA's resonance frequency or (2) because we are in Hades where most of us don't realize that we died decades ago or (3) both (1) & (2)?  I really couldn't tell you.  Except that I was murdered by police or police impersonators in Athens, Georgia in September, 1999.  It was a point blank headshot in my apartment in a pre dawn raid.  My naked body was dumped in the nearby Oconee river.  Didn't have any great MDMA rolls again in particular after that.



Out there for sure. Yikes. Lay off the psyches my man. While i do understand there is probably things beyond our comprehension, this is reaching IMO.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Hey @G_Chem any pointers for the A/B would be awesome.  I'm going to have a go at that first before trying the distillation.  Talking of distillation, how expensive a vacuum pump do you need?  I'm confused as to what would be needed.


----------



## Dresden

Of Course The Truth Is Stranger Than Fiction.  Fiction Has To Make Sense.  (Samuel Clemens)


----------



## epic11

Its not a pic of my own, as i cannot get a good macro of mine. But my "colorless/opaque crystals" that do not produce the magic look like these (the clear crystals, not so much like the tan ones)



			https://i.redd.it/okijks56god31.jpg


----------



## G_Chem

Alright this is far from a write up but here’s a quick one while I have a moment.

You’ll need:

-distilled water
-lye, NaOH, sodium hydroxide
-ph papers
-glass containers
-separatory funnel or glass turkey baster plus glass dropper (nice to have all)
-toluene, xylene or naphtha
-muriatic acid or acetic acid (depending on the salt your seeking)


Dissolve 1g of MDMA in 50ml of water.  Add 50ml of whichever non polar solvent you chose (we’ll assume toluene).  Shake vigorously for 5 minutes and then let separate.  If not using a sep funnel, use a glass jar which is tall and skinny for easier separation.  Remove and discard toluene.

Add another 50ml toluene.  Slowly add lye to the water/mdma/toluene solution in increments of .5-1g until ph 12.  Go slow and give the base time to do its job.

Upon addition of the base you’ll notice the water get cloudy and the mdma freebase rises up out.  Having the toluene already in there gives it a place to go and in my opinion keeps it safe from sitting too long with the base

Once ph12 let sit with occasionally shaking for an hour.  Upon the end of the hour shake one more time for 5 mins, then let sit.  Separate and save toluene/freebase mdma, extract again once more with 50ml fresh toluene.  Combine toluene extracts.

You now have 100ml toluene with MDMA freebase.

Mix up a solution of 5g lye to 100ml water.  Let sit until all dissolved then pour in with toluene/freebase.  Mix for 3min then let separate.  Discard water layer.  Pour in 100ml fresh dh20 into toluene/FB, shake for 5min, separate and discard water.  Repeat once more with another fresh water wash.

These are water washes to clean up any water soluble impurities, the freebase will stay in the toluene solution.

Next we need to make it a salt again.  A few ways to do this but may need to make the HCl salt for best comparisons.

You could dry as is, and the freebase MDMA will eventually react with the air to form MDMA carbonate.  This is untested territory.

Easiest route is to extract with distilled vinegar.  Pour in 50ml and shake for 10min.  Separate and repeat 2-3 times total.  Combine vinegar extracts and dry in a plate.  Once dry re-dissolve in fresh dh20 then dry again to allow rest of acetic acid to escape crystal matrix.

To create HCl, you could look up how to make a dry acetone/HCl solution.  Then add this dropwise until no more precipitate forms.  You could dilute to 5% HCl then extract like you would with vinegar, dry, redissolve then dry again.  You could create a mini dry HCl gas generator as well.

Going with HCl will take a bit of extra reading.  I’d probably suggest either the dry acetone/HCl route or simply adding dilute HCl.

Once finished drying.  You could wash the powdered product with a minimal amount of dry freezer cold acetone, very briefly.  Then do a recrystallization from isopropyl.

To re-X, add boiling hot isopropyl slowly while stirring until it seems the solution is saturated while not adding too much extra.  Slowly let solution cool to room temperature.  Then put in fridge for 6 hours then freezer overnight.

With recrystallization it’s all about going slow, the slower the better.

If you then took this product and distilled it.  You’d likely be looking at like GMP grade pharmaceutical MDMA status purity lol.

Amounts of various liquids could be altered depending on the amount of MDMA used.  I just went with the numbers I did to give enough to work with but if your purifying say an ounce of mdma, you’d likely want to scale back some of the volumes.

For those just seeking purity, and want to do this as easily/safely as possible, use vinegar at the end.  I’ve done this extraction (which was pulled from old mdma synthesis write ups) with 5-mapb using vinegar and the crystals were beautiful.  It’s just you’ll then have MDMA acetate which may vary slightly in effect.

If one intended on distilling after a/b then I’d use vinegar too, since your reverting it back to freebase again for the distillation.  You can make the HCl once your done distilling.

As for vacuum pumps, unfortunately I’m more of a reader than a doer.  I’ve yet to buy my own, using aspirators instead, which won’t work for this unless you have a good one and build your own pump station with ice cold water.

I’m not sure I can say prices but last I checked they weren’t bad in comparison to before.  You could maybe find one in the double digit price range, or low triple digit.

Any questions please ask, I can make things more basic if need be.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Awesome, thanks.  Out of interest, does the re-X in the above procedure contribute much to purification, or is it more of a cosmetic thing?


----------



## G_Chem

Eh at that stage likely more cosmetic than anything.  I could be wrong though.. Either way we are talking less than 1% whether I’m wrong or not.

And no problem 

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Cool, well, I'll get back to you 

Looks like I can get everything locally tomorrow morning... except the glass sep funnel or baster or dropper.  Annoying


----------



## psy997

ThreePointCircle said:


> Cool, well, I'll get back to you
> 
> Looks like I can get everything locally tomorrow morning... except the glass sep funnel or baster or dropper.  Annoying



Mind sharing how much you spent on it all once you're done?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

psy997 said:


> Mind sharing how much you spent on it all once you're done?


Sure, no problem


----------



## Phobos

ThreePointCircle said:


> Awesome, thanks.  Out of interest, does the re-X in the above procedure contribute much to purification, or is it more of a cosmetic thing?


I think it will increase purity, even if just a little....
But only if you filter the crystals out of the saturated cold solution discarding the IPA that still has some MDMA in it, together with whatever impurities have been carried over to this stage (likely to be a minimal amount at this point? Does someone know for sure?).
Slow recrystallization should give bigger clearer crystals, but there is the practical problem of handling them in a way that does not break them up.


----------



## Specified

Tor and you can't go wrong. the crystals in the Netherlands are fire!


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Actually getting the distilled water is slowing me down.  All I can find is deionised.  I'm assuming that's not a valid substitute?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@G_Chem also, when measuring the pH, should that be of the xylene layer or the water layer?  Possibly stupid question but I'm at that bit now and a bit confused.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

ThreePointCircle said:


> Actually getting the distilled water is slowing me down.  All I can find is deionised.  I'm assuming that's not a valid substitute?


I'm pretty sure that deionised water is the same as distilled water. I.E. a distillation process is used to remove dissolvesd mineral ions leaving pure H2O.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I'm pretty sure that deionised water is the same as distilled water. I.E. a distillation process is used to remove dissolvesd mineral ions leaving pure H2O.


Unfortunately its not the same.  Deionised has gone through a chemical process to remove the ions, rather than a heat process.  Searching online there seemed to be a bit of maybe you can, maybe you can't, thoughts on using it, so I've just gone ahead and used it


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

So is deionised not quite as pure as distilled then? Are there impurities left over from the deionisation process?


----------



## G_Chem

Hey threepoint, when checking ph you need to get some of the water layer but no worries if some toluene gets on there too.

Distilled water or reverse osmosis water can usually be found down at the grocery store.

Yea glass turkey basters and droppers can be a bitch to find.  For glass droppers look for vials with dropppers at health/natural supplement type stores.  Turkey baster or sep funnel may need to be ordered.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Thanks.  I basically (excuse the pun) very quickly got a pH around 12 in the water layer, but the top layer (actually I'm using xylene) is more like pH 8 or something.  I see a bit of stuff going up into it but wasn't sure I was doing the right thing.

Oh and in the uk it appears no one is selling distilled locally.  Pharmacists were supposed to but after phoning about 20 of them I had to give up.  Grocery stores have deionised.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@F.U.B.A.R.  It doesn't get rid of, for example, bacteria and other organics.  Having said that, distillation can carry over volatile stuff so neither's perfect it would seem


----------



## novaveritas

deionized water is the same as distilled water in this application. unionized water is great but it only works 35hr weeks and often strikes and refuses to work.
pH is a measure of Hydrogen vs hydroxide ion concentration in water so Xylene will not have a pH in the traditional sense.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Thanks @novaveritas , makes sense


----------



## psy997

Specified said:


> Tor and you can't go wrong. the crystals in the Netherlands are fire!



You haven't read any of this thread have you?


----------



## Specified

psy997 said:


> You haven't read any of this thread have you?


I read a bit.


----------



## nznity

I thought it was bullcrap all this fuzz about true MDMA and MEHDMA but I've come to the conclusion THAT IT IS IN FACT TRUE. i've tried numerous pills, some tested some not, pills that make you feel all loved up, no comedown, strong safrole smell, not much of a comedown days later. ANd i've tried SUPPOSEDLY GOOD PILLS but the only FX i got was jaw clenching, speedy effect, heart racing, not much euphoria and it wore off real fast. And guess what that pill tested positive for MDMA, it was a famous press even,probably a counterfeit one idk but still it tested positive. And i have had other pills that still make me feel really good. My tolerance is really high these days(ive been using on and off MDMA for the past 8 years) and i only get a glimpses of the MAGIC that made me love MDMA from outstanding pills every once in a while, there are still good pills around but i'd rather do pure MDMA most of the time now. It makes me feel more the loved up effect, the tactile sensitivity, not much jaw clenching, etc. anyway guys everything isn't lost, you just have to look well for good pills. There's still good MDMA out there....the one that is sheer MAGIC. Cheers, NZN


----------



## heatlessbbq

The majority of the Molly ["Moon Rocks"] going around Today is actually MDA.
Not MDMA.


----------



## wereallmadhere

Just wanted add my two cents to this, I have no idea if there is "magic" mdma and mehmda haha. But Im a good subject to test this as I didnt experience mdma or any drug other than weed till pretty late in life. The first time I took mdma it, id say it was exactly like what shulgin described it as. My second time with the same material was good , but def. a step down but I only waited 6 weeks. 3rd time I upped the dose to 120mg (plus 60 redose) and it was pretty much like the 1st. Next time I did it, I had not intended to do it that night as I was tripping on shrooms and I took a much bigger dose than I would have at that point if I was sober. I started with about an 8th of shrooms , and probably took 260ish mg of the same mdma , this was the most amazing drug experience I have ever had and really didnt think feeling of such pure bliss was even possible. Ever since that trip, my mdma source changed and my rolls have not been the same. Little to no music enhancement, euforia there is some but nothing like what you would expect... I do get most the other effects such an my body feels amazing, it drops my personality walls, much more open and communitive. Now it possible that musroom/mdma experience changed something and I just cant roll like I used to , or the new mdma is different. Fortunetely I have like 136mg of my original material and I am going to take for my next roll. This will tell me whether some/much of todays mdma is not the same , or its simply  own body chemistry or maybe the shroom/mdma combo was a bad idea , ive seen someone on reddit say the same thing, that thier rolls just werent the same after combing shrooms with e. My last roll a month ago I did a tradition nexus flip, and I have to say that brought back much of the magic. :D Im going to wait another month and try my original material and will report back. For the record, I have tried two different sources of crystal and some orange teslas, and the quality of the roll with those were basically the same, so I am skeptical my original stuff will by any different, but we shall see :D


----------



## psy997

Specified said:


> I read a bit.



You seem to have missed the running hypothesis that the super labs from there are, in large part, contributing to the current MehDMA phenomenon. Tor is definitely not safe from mediocre product, and in fact the opposite.



heatlessbbq said:


> The majority of the Molly ["Moon Rocks"] going around Today is actually MDA.
> Not MDMA.



This is baseless speculation unless proven otherwise.


----------



## AutoTripper

wereallmadhere said:


> Just wanted add my two cents to this, I have no idea if there is "magic" mdma and mehmda haha. But Im a good subject to test this as I didnt experience mdma or any drug other than weed till pretty late in life. The first time I took mdma it, id say it was exactly like what shulgin described it as. My second time with the same material was good , but def. a step down but I only waited 6 weeks. 3rd time I upped the dose to 120mg (plus 60 redose) and it was pretty much like the 1st. Next time I did it, I had not intended to do it that night as I was tripping on shrooms and I took a much bigger dose than I would have at that point if I was sober. I started with about an 8th of shrooms , and probably took 260ish mg of the same mdma , this was the most amazing drug experience I have ever had and really didnt think feeling of such pure bliss was even possible. Ever since that trip, my mdma source changed and my rolls have not been the same. Little to no music enhancement, euforia there is some but nothing like what you would expect... I do get most the other effects such an my body feels amazing, it drops my personality walls, much more open and communitive. Now it possible that musroom/mdma experience changed something and I just cant roll like I used to , or the new mdma is different. Fortunetely I have like 136mg of my original material and I am going to take for my next roll. This will tell me whether some/much of todays mdma is not the same , or its simply  own body chemistry or maybe the shroom/mdma combo was a bad idea , ive seen someone on reddit say the same thing, that thier rolls just werent the same after combing shrooms with e. My last roll a month ago I did a tradition nexus flip, and I have to say that brought back much of the magic. :D Im going to wait another month and try my original material and will report back. For the record, I have tried two different sources of crystal and some orange teslas, and the quality of the roll with those were basically the same, so I am skeptical my original stuff will by any different, but we shall see :D


Hey, sounds very interesting and thanks for sharing with us and please do report back this will be extremely useful your subjective contribution here which it's still apparently the strongest and only real "evidence" we have lol.

Although I do genuinely think that the Mere fact that we are even having this conversation and entertaining it seriously is pretty much solid confirmation that the issue does exist because if it didn't then we just would not be here right now plain and simple. Right? Magic loss or no magic loss.

I only wanted to add here that I used to really enjoy combining mushrooms with MDMA and acid and ketamine in any old combination and in no way did the combination of mushrooms and MDMA negatively affect my ability to experience MDMA effects fully after this if anything the opposite and it kept the MDMA experience fresh and alive for me.

However I'm not ruling out that something hasn't changed in how you experience MDMA currently but this would possibly be related to your MDMA use and dosages rather than the actual combination with the mushrooms so just something to consider there as well.

Either way your experience with your 136mg shouldn't fail to be revealing in some way.

Roll safe and do share. (y)


----------



## Phobos

psy997 said:


> ...........................
> This is baseless speculation unless proven otherwise.



It is the second time he posts that same statement in this thread, in a few days, without bothering to  back it up even when directly asked to do so.


----------



## AutoTripper

To add- I like to follow the ongoing analysis on ecstasydata and elsewhere. If MDA was really predominant currently, surely this would be showing up much more frequently in testing results?

But it is incredibly rare actually much more so than in the past and it would seem that MDMA is by far the predominant compound.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

As far as im aware MDA is only prominent in New Zealand though some presses containing only MDA do show up occasionally on testing sites around the world


----------



## ThreePointCircle

So I think I messed up at the salting stage.  Up to then it seemed to be going well, a bit messy, but not bad.  I actually had HCl instead of acetic acid.  I thought I saw stuff start to precipitate out and I separated and dumped the xylene layer.  But what I have left is just sitting there and all I can make out is a little bit of oil but no precipitate.  Maybe this is because it hasn't dried out yet?  Maybe I diluted the HCl too much?

And should you warm the final fixture to dry it out faster?

I'm writing this one off as a practice run.  I'll get better tooled up (e.g. sep funnel) and try again.  Any tips for the HCl phase would be most appreciated.


----------



## G_Chem

I forgot to mention always hang on to each layer Incase mistakes happen.  As they do..

When doing the salting phase did you just dilute the HCl to 5% then extract by shaking for 10min or so?

There should be no precipitation at this stage.  You won’t really see anything happen as the freebase mdma interacts with the acid forming the salt and immediately gets taken up in the water.

It may need to dry more.  It’ll look oily until the very last water dried off which can take awhile.  Just put in a warm dry place with a fan over it, no heat.

Maybe you didn’t agitate enough to get the freebase into the HCl water layer?  Although even if you messed that up you’d get a little something.

Wait for it to dry, it can look like nothing until the last few drops crystallize.

I’m thinking I’m going to perform a mini a/b myself just in solidarity and cuz I got a little that needs some purifying..

-GC


----------



## epic11

heatlessbbq said:


> The majority of the Molly ["Moon Rocks"] going around Today is actually MDA.
> Not MDMA.



Wrong, its all testing as mdma on lab tests. (the stuff thats producing lackluster experiences) However, the feeling of "mehdma" would be similar to mda. Everything but the love!


----------



## Phobos

epic11 said:


> Wrong, its all testing as mdma on lab tests. (the stuff thats producing lackluster experiences) However, the feeling of "mehdma" would be similar to mda. Everything but the love!



What about duration?


----------



## epic11

Phobos said:


> What about duration?



 5-6 hours but theres very little to no love/empathy. You may get that love empathy for 10 mins or so, but it dissipates.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Actually, I find the duration of MehDMA to be more like 3 hours max. Sounds like my Meh is more Meh than your Meh...


----------



## psy997

Yea most MehDMA I've had lasts just around 3 hours. Though I have had Meh that lasts closer to 4-6 as it should be.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Actually, I find the duration of MehDMA to be more like 3 hours max. Sounds like my Meh is more Meh than your Meh...


lmao.  Well, i guess im just hyper aware of any drug being in me. Id argue the "good" part of meh-dma lasts about 3 hours. And lines up with your statement. How bout that?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

epic11 said:


> lmao.  Well, i guess im just hyper aware of any drug being in me. Id argue the "good" part of meh-dma lasts about 3 hours. And lines up with your statement. How bout that?



Fair enough, but I personally find that after the 3 hours 'good part' is over, I'm sleeping like a baby. So I can't really comment on the remainder of the experience...


----------



## G_Chem

Duration could be down to tolerance.. The one thing I’ve noticed in my friends and family that overdid it through the years..  They’d still get that good loving vibe off good product it just wouldn’t last as long.  I can still roll good 4-6 hours but for my brother it’s usually 2-3 these days.

So you guys could possibly be getting the same MehDMA just with different tolerances.. I’m assuming FUBAR has you beat epic hehe 

Or as I’ve said before, all batches vary slightly..  It could be either.

-GC


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> Duration could be down to tolerance.. The one thing I’ve noticed in my friends and family that overdid it through the years..  They’d still get that good loving vibe off good product it just wouldn’t last as long.  I can still roll good 4-6 hours but for my brother it’s usually 2-3 these days.
> 
> So you guys could possibly be getting the same MehDMA just with different tolerances.. I’m assuming FUBAR has you beat epic hehe
> 
> Or as I’ve said before, all batches vary slightly..  It could be either.
> 
> -GC



Im gonna lean towards tolerance on this part. Ive never abused and even mehdma is noticeable for hours to me. Its just not lovey.


----------



## heatlessbbq

MDA has a shorter duration than MDMA.

I've noticed when I eat ecstasy tablets with LSD. My LSD trips last 10x times longer.


----------



## Phobos

heatlessbbq said:


> MDA has a shorter duration than MDMA.


If you speak about total duration no, they are more or less equivalent with MDA being slightly longer due to a slower comedown.



heatlessbbq said:


> I've noticed when I eat ecstasy tablets with LSD. My LSD trips last 10x times longer.


Probably you don't spend multiple days tripping just because you took some pills with your LSD.
Why don't you provide an actual measurement?


----------



## heatlessbbq

Phobos said:


> If you speak about total duration no, they are more or less equivalent with MDA being slightly longer due to a slower comedown.



Not a fan of the dreadful MDA come down...
Gunna need a lot of Cannabis to get through that one...
Not a hang over I'm willing to sacrifice.



Phobos said:


> Probably you don't spend multiple days tripping just because you took some pills with your LSD.
> Why don't you provide an actual measurement?


LOL!!!
I do, Mate.

How can I prove such an experience... Uhhum... Lets see. iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiIIIIIIII


----------



## Phobos

heatlessbbq said:


> LOL!!!
> I do, Mate.
> How can I prove such an experience... Uhhum... Lets see. iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiIIIIIIII


So, you take a few tabs and a few pills during the course of a night, and then you need about 80 more hours to be sober?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

heatlessbbq said:


> MDA has a shorter duration than MDMA.
> 
> I've noticed when I eat ecstasy tablets with LSD. My LSD trips last 10x times longer.


stop spreading such bullshit. MDA has a way longer duration than mdma. If i take MDA i will be feeling it for 6-8 hours


----------



## KS78

MDA has definitely longer duration than MDMA. It's also much more hallucinogenic in my opinion and according to my experience. I used to get white, round very thick MDA pills which were stamped with sunflower image in NYC around 2005. I had been using (abusing) extacy for a long time before that and the first time I ingested those pills, thinking that it wouldn't be too diffrent, I started to get very cool visual effects similar to LSD which surprised me a lot. Also, the body load was much more pronounced than MDMA. Remember being really drained for a couple days after taking two of them. It was very different than MDMA which in comparison was a day in the park coming down from. The high stayed with me after I woke up the next day evening and the visuals kicked back in when I smoked weed. After that I had more respect for MDA and I didn't take a few of them (the way I used to take MDMA those days) in a session again.


----------



## heatlessbbq

I'm starting to really wonder about the current members on this website...


----------



## heatlessbbq

MDA is more neuro toxic than MDMA.


----------



## KS78

What do you wonder about them?


----------



## Phobos

KS78 said:


> What do you wonder about them?


He must be wondering what is wrong with us as we don't trip for 3 days off of a candyflip.


----------



## heatlessbbq

Nah.

I am suspicious a certain one or two of You have multiple accounts and trying to discredit everything I write on this website.

I am right.


----------



## Phobos

Seems like we have a new candidate for the Best of Bluelight section guys.
What you recon?


----------



## heatlessbbq

Phobos said:


> Seems like we have a new candidate for the Best of Bluelight section guys.
> What you recon?


Am I the next one to get cornered?


----------



## KS78

I think that you might be getting a little paranoid heatlessbbq. Why would anybody do that? I don't see many wasting time to mess with another bler.


----------



## Phobos

Nah, he is not paranoid, he is full on delusional. I am honestly worried for him.


----------



## heatlessbbq

MDA is a hell of a drug.


----------



## KS78

"Summary
Although most sources list the duration of MDA as between 6 and 12 hours, usually stressing that it is significantly longer in duration than MDMA, many users of MDA have found the two to be of similar duration and effects. A number of very credible reports exist of MDA-only experiences lasting 12-24 hours, but these appear to be far less common than experiences under 6 hours.

Based on our analysis of the available data, we have recently changed our documentation of MDA duration from "8- 12 hours" to "3-5 hours" and added notes about the confusion and lingering effects.

There are several open questions: whether MDA's duration may be more dosesensitive than MDMA; what percentage of users experience what duration; how to describe the effects-time curve so that we have a shared terminology for describing when effects "end"; and whether some of the duration confusion is due to including boosts in duration calculations."

This is from:
Still High at 12 Hours or Down at 3?
Re-examining MDA Duration
by EARTH & FIRE EROWID

It seems like MDA may be more dose responsive than MDMA. Other than that the peak durations are pretty much the same. We all take different doses so this might be the culprit of disagreement. I don't think that someone is playing a game with you heatlessbbq. We write according to our experiences and the literature which we read.


----------



## AutoTripper

I do think maybe our good friend is not so fully well perhaps. Let us all try and be as sensitive and understanding as possible I would like to suggest. No question @heatlessbbq is sincere, but I am concerned for you bro.

Please let me assure you I personally have absolutely nothing against you, I make zero judgement on you, and I remain open to you and your posts at all times, of course that doesn't mean I agree with you all of the time.

I also wish to very strongly assure you, that from my perspective and where I am standing I really do not believe that any any single member here has it in for you so to speak or harbours any bad feelings your way.

I can totally empathize with them and relate to what they are saying, as, please take this as it is openly and warmly intended, I have to agree that you appear highly prone to delusion, and many things you say do not make any logical sense to me or fit with already firmly established ideas and notions (which absolutely can always be, and probably mostly always are incorrect until eventually modified or scrapped altogether, but at the same time really no reason to doubt or question).

I only say this to try and empathize and help you see the overall picture here more clearly. I seriously, seriously doubt that anybody has multiple accounts to troll and target you.

I do think that perhaps we should make more effort to be less provoked and more sensitive  but I can totally understand why the members have been reacting to you as they have because they legitimately feel that that many of your nonsensical and at times contradictory posts and comments are detracting from and disrupting the flow of various threads.

But essentially this is a harm reduction site and the members here are incredibly passionate about trying to be as accurate and objectively honest as possible with every thing that is shared here for the sake of reliable information and safety for any who may see the information.

So I can understand passions running a little high when people genuinely feel that potentially dangerous inaccurate information is posted here  and that is why why you feel on the brunt of such retaliation which I promise you you have misinterpreted.

In no way will any of this actually be personal and I am absolutely sure that that nobody is judging you you here and that everybody will remain open to you participating more suitably and appropriately if and when you are able to demonstrate this more consistently.

@heatlessbbq one thing I truly believe about Bluelight, and a big reason why I have such positive  and warm feelings about this place and the many members here- we all care, genuinely.  This is a very mature, humble place and set of people who simply don't hold grudges or make judgements for the most part.

Im sure we would all like to see you feel more accepted, but you have to be prepared to be met with retaliation, rebuttal and criticism if others genuinely, and strongly feel that your mindset is not right, resulting in you posting potentially dangerous inaccurate information.

Im not judging you ONE BIT bro. I'm not thinking or suggesting for one moment that I know more than you or that you do not have extensive and useful knowledge and experience which others can learn from especially myself. However I cannot help but feel that you may need some help in life if and that possibly you are quite alone in this sense(?)

So I dont know what to suggest, and I really don't mean to patronise you I just really would like to help you to feel more accepted here and able to appreciate where the other members are coming from to make better and more appropriate contributions or at least to go about it in a different way.


----------



## Phobos

Spot on bro, while I criticize the posts I factually disagree with, it is not to antagonise him, but to provide a reader with the notion that some information is incorrect.


----------



## KS78

And Autotripper just summarized the soul of Bluelight?


----------



## heatlessbbq

KS78 said:


> And Autotripper just summarized the soul of Bluelight?



...the current soul of Bluelight. ✌


----------



## G_Chem

I’m all about correct information.  When someone not only gives out tons of false information, but then talks shit to anyone who even remotely questions them..  I’m not going to take kindly to them.

It remains that heatless keeps spouting certain “facts” with zero evidence to back his claims.  Calling people noobs (me lol) when he isn’t willing to give more than a 3 word answer, claiming there’s some conspiracy against him because we want some actual proof.  He’s mad because I got tired of watching him spew misinformation and have been cleaning up after him so to speak..

In the end, truth is king and this is a harm reduction forum.  I’m a loving accepting guy but it makes me cringe to watch misinformation flourish (like Reddit for example.)  I don’t care if asking some questions to get the correct answers causes someone to get upset, it shows they don’t truly know to begin with.


MDA is NOT commonly found and not the issue with mehdma.  Heatless if you had taken the time to read this thread, or maybe even glance at EData analysis, or any analysis website.. You’d have seen that MDA is much less common these days than in the past.

The analysis don’t back up your claim.  There are some niche areas which still have a lot but no ones buying it mistaking it for MDMA.

-GC


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> I’m all about correct information.  When someone not only gives out tons of false information, but then talks shit to anyone who even remotely questions them..  I’m not going to take kindly to them.
> 
> It remains that heatless keeps spouting certain “facts” with zero evidence to back his claims.  Calling people noobs (me lol) when he isn’t willing to give more than a 3 word answer, claiming there’s some conspiracy against him because we want some actual proof.  He’s mad because I got tired of watching him spew misinformation and have been cleaning up after him so to speak..
> 
> In the end, truth is king and this is a harm reduction forum.  I’m a loving accepting guy but it makes me cringe to watch misinformation flourish (like Reddit for example.)  I don’t care if asking some questions to get the correct answers causes someone to get upset, it shows they don’t truly know to begin with.
> 
> 
> MDA is NOT commonly found and not the issue with mehdma.  Heatless if you had taken the time to read this thread, or maybe even glance at EData analysis, or any analysis website.. You’d have seen that MDA is much less common these days than in the past.
> 
> The analysis don’t back up your claim.  There are some niche areas which still have a lot but no ones buying it mistaking it for MDMA.
> 
> -GC


G_chems point is the EXACT reason people are shitting all over heartless. You are saying incorrect info in a harm reduction forum, clearly didnt read the entirety of the thread, and are missing the loads of test data about this. We are passionate about peoples health, and if you come in here and try to throw a fork in the road about these drugs. You arent gonna be taking seriously and will be ousted. Thats how the truth works.  Its not anger, its not personal, its just your info is incorrect. Dont do that.


----------



## heatlessbbq

epic11 said:


> G_chems point is the EXACT reason people are shitting all over heartless. You are saying incorrect info in a harm reduction forum, clearly didnt read the entirety of the thread, and are missing the loads of test data about this. We are passionate about peoples health, and if you come in here and try to throw a fork in the road about these drugs. You arent gonna be taking seriously and will be ousted. Thats how the truth works.  Its not anger, its not personal, its just your info is incorrect. Dont do that.


I get crap for anything I say on this site.


----------



## KS78

It's ok. Why do you care this much? Just take the advise people give if you like and the rest shouldn't be the end of the world


----------



## heatlessbbq

KS78 said:


> It's ok. Why do you care this much? Just take the advise people give if you like and the rest shouldn't be the end of the world



This is Bluelight.org.


----------



## KS78

I'm done.


----------



## heatlessbbq

Good.


----------



## KS78

You should get some help. Now I'm done.


----------



## Phobos

heatlessbbq said:


> I get crap for anything I say on this site.



That is incorrect.
Whenever you have posted something that me or someone else here did not think was correct, we pointed out the part that we wanted to criticize, and we explained our point of view. 
We did not give you crap, we attempted to engage you in productive discussion, but you failed to explain your point of view most of the time, and when you tried you revealed a jaw dropping level of misinformation.
It is true that it is a big part of what you posted, but it's not everything.


----------



## heatlessbbq

^.


----------



## G_Chem

After reading heatlessbbq’s post elsewhere, I’m almost guessing he’s a troll.  For gods sakes the guy just 2yrs ago posted a comprehensive thread on lsd dosages and the effects felt at varying levels.  Now he’s got a thread asking what a 5strip is going to feel like...

Whether a troll or not, I’m officially done wasting my time engaging..  This threads already off track enough.


To bring it back on track..  Check out this DrugLabs video about XTC in Netherlands.  They go around asking people about MDMA and realize no one knows shit about the drug despite it being the mdma capital of the world.

What I find most interesting is how these people don’t really look like they are rolling that hard to me.  Even the guy who’s looking spaced out on supposedly 5 pills isn’t where I’d expect to see someone having taken so much.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/cmrv7e

-GC


----------



## psy997

epic11 said:


> Im gonna lean towards tolerance on this part. Ive never abused and even mehdma is noticeable for hours to me. Its just not lovey.



It's not tolerance. I first had MehDMA four years ago, and since then the multiple times I've had it, the duration has been just as variable as the other effects are. 2-3 times it's been exactly 3-4 hours and then boom, done. Of course there's still residual effects, but not like an afterglow or even residual stimulation that keeps you awake. Other times, it's felt super meh but lasted exactly the duration real MDMA should. Which for me, is a solid 4-4.5hr peak, 1-3 hours of strong afterglow, and then residual stimulation and afterglow that usually has me stay awake until 10-12 hours after dosing.

The duration is batch dependent.


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> After reading heatlessbbq’s post elsewhere, I’m almost guessing he’s a troll.  For gods sakes the guy just 2yrs ago posted a comprehensive thread on lsd dosages and the effects felt at varying levels.  Now he’s got a thread asking what a 5strip is going to feel like...
> 
> Whether a troll or not, I’m officially done wasting my time engaging..  This threads already off track enough.
> 
> 
> To bring it back on track..  Check out this DrugLabs video about XTC in Netherlands.  They go around asking people about MDMA and realize no one knows shit about the drug despite it being the mdma capital of the world.
> 
> What I find most interesting is how these people don’t really look like they are rolling that hard to me.  Even the guy who’s looking spaced out on supposedly 5 pills isn’t where I’d expect to see someone having taken so much.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/cmrv7e
> 
> -GC



Watched a majority of it. Yea the guy on "5" is definitely on some type of amphetamine, probably rolling. But yea, 5 pills would have you absolutely floored. Maybe hes just a heavy abuser and kinda always had been? He didnt know that was bad when he brought it up. lol Otherwise, id say a lot of people in this video know way more than any american. Kudos to them for having a population that even cares to think about the risks and learn.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Speed is heavily used in holland at parties and raves alongside mdma. But alot of tourists get ripped off cause they buy off anybody that offers it to them in the streets. But theres flyers handed out at these events telling the dutch to only take a 1/4 quarter of a pill to start with and i think a decent amount of them follow it.


----------



## mooka

Honestly no one of those guys in the video looks like they're on mdma.. with 5 pills you're unable to hold a simple conversation or respond to basic questions..


----------



## AutoTripper

mooka said:


> Honestly no one of those guys in the video looks like they're on mdma.. with 5 pills you're unable to hold a simple conversation or respond to basic questions..


Yes I totally agree that dude who said he was on 5 pills- it sure didn't add up. I could see barely if any discernible indication that he was even rolling.

He seemed clueless as shit, in general, as a human being.

Maybe he is just a liar? Very possible, liking the camera limelight.

Or he has a source for bunk pills and has no idea what he is even taking or what proper MDMA pills are like.

Even low dosed on the average scale currently- still well over 100mg, so a good half gram of MDMA, I would expect (or hope) to see far more noticeable alteration of consciousness and behaviour and expression of effects whereas this guy just doesn't seem to be aware of anything going on including the effects of MDMA which if they are are taking place in his system appear to have gone completely over his head.

Actually I think it is a bit of a shame that he was even included in this video with huge questions about his credibility for a start but also so I can't see that there was any positive benefit to having interviewed him and included it in the final video surely they could have found some better people to talk to than this?

Rather lame and pretentious and a bit silly IMO.

Gosh, sorry everyone by the way for being so negative. Have been under some stress I'm sure the video isn't that bad.


----------



## Goodwalt

I've actually found the video quite interesting. Would love to see these basic questions (along with some others) asked at several locations worldwide to see which populations are the least informed regarding HR.


----------



## AutoTripper

Goodwalt said:


> I've actually found the video quite interesting. Would love to see these basic questions (along with some others) asked at several locations worldwide to see which populations are the least informed regarding HR.


I just think, in general, Drugslab are a bit too showy, tongue in cheek and not real or factual enough without making a bit too much of a silly joke out of everything.

Harm reduction and drug education is a serious business after all. I really don't think I would recommend them as a reliable, thorough and accurate/objective resource for drug education.

A bit of fun, sure. If that is what they are about, fair play, as long as viewers can be somewhat conscious of that.


----------



## indigoaura

@ThreePointCircle TicTac never replied to me, unfortunately. I think once I explained that I was not with a hospital or pre-approved research group they wrote me off.

Took me awhile to catch up. I was out of town for awhile. Not much for me to add, but I have found the duration of the MehDMA to be shorter than a regular MDMA experience overall. Three hours seems more on point than 5.


----------



## heatlessbbq

May I ask You all a question about how We got here Today with the MDMA We currently have Today?

What about ecstasy?


----------



## heatlessbbq

Are They more expensive then or now?


----------



## epic11

heatlessbbq said:


> May I ask You all a question about how We got here Today with the MDMA We currently have Today?
> 
> What about ecstasy?



This is why nobody listens to your posts. Mdma = ecstasy dummy!!! If your "ecstasy" doesnt test as pure mdma, then you dont have ecstasy, you have something else. An ecstasy pill should just be mdma, and sometimes mdma + caffeine. Thats it!! 

mdma = ecstasy. ecstasy = mdma. Molly = mdma = ecstasy. ITS ALL THE SAME THING.


----------



## AutoTripper

heatlessbbq said:


> Are They more expensive then or now?


In my early days, 1996, "Ecstasy" pills were typically £10 each. Which would not be such an unreasonable price to pay for a genuine original 100mg + old skool E tablet.

Except at around that time in 1996 the quality has dropped with regards to dosage and averages will probably around 60mg for a while definitely below 70 mg average anyway.

By 1998, after the Legendary Mitsubishis have been around for a while I think prices were a little lower and £7 became more common. And stronger pills too.

By 1999/2000, it was practucally down to £5 or less, like 3 for £10 even.

And I'm talking really exceptional pills the best of the best which I ever took practically for those prices depending where and when. 

So £5 for say 150mg MDMA. Or 3 × 150mg for £10.

MDMA crystal/powder was standard at £50 gram, £25 half mostly from 2002-2005, but also found for £20/40.

Last time I bought MDMA pills, at a barn rave in 2005- 4 for £10, Heineken stars and they were absolutely cracking. I took 4 plus an unidentified pill, along with 6 Hiffman tabs and about 2 grams of ketamine.

I had a great time and absolutely no come down either that was the last time I went to a rave before my Lyme.
And also the last time I took proper ecstasy. At this exact same time in early 2005 a batch of pills had come around which just were not right in some way and the clue is in the title they were called Mickey Mouses would you believe it?

Maybe this was the start of the Mehdma. Those sly, cheeky bastards. MICKEY mouses? If I am correct and there was a genuine difference to the MDMA or whatever active was presents in news Mickey Mouse pills, then whoever started this up and actually introduced it initially...

Not only did they know exactly what they were doing but they were also having a sick little joke on us like the elite do with their media, commercial and movie references, (although that tends to go over the blind masses heads probably much to their roar of laughter no doubt).

I had already thought about these Mickey Mouse pills in relation to this thread and topic but never got around to mention yet but looking back I feel almost 100-percent certain that this was a different form of MDMA.

It just was not right and didn't feel the same there was something very wrong with it but it was effectively imitating the drug in various ways. I did not enjoy these pills at all at the time and I would have absolutely no desire to ever take one again.

I took a lot of what I consider to be crappy ecstasy pills during my partaking but there was something very different about this.


Aaaanyway...back on topic (or back off it again? Lol) So MDMA pills were pretty cheap by 2004/2005.

£2.50 each, 150 mg regular. So 100mg was like £1.66 or just above for £3 pills.

£17 gram! Way cheaper than MDMA which hovered at £40-50.  And just as good as well at the time.

Recently, I paid £6.50 each for my Dutch Bowsers, supposedly 230 mg.
Ecstasy/MDMA is alledgedly cheaper than ever, on account of the high dosages.

I'm trying to do the Matchs on this right now but I'm sure I was paying way less in 2005?

Yep damn right. £2.82 per 100mg vs £1.66 in 2005.

Now, @heatlessbbq I'm not actually sure how to answer your question.
I'm not  sure I even understand it. I do wish you could elaborate more and put your meaning in a clearer context.

So I have no idea what else to say, but I do like getting these objective observations jotted out to help me see things more clearly, and of course it brings great pleasure and is enormously therapeutic to be able to share my experiences with you all.

So I answered purely for fun and therapy.


----------



## AutoTripper

heatlessbbq said:


> Molly isn't ecstasy, homie.


It is supposedly, by true original definition. There is a thread dedicated to this exact debate and it is pretty much unanimously agreed by those who are correct on the matter that the terms Ecstasy, MDMA and Molly should be interchangeable and all referred only to MDMA and no other substances.

THIS is a fact.


----------



## Tranced

Is there any particular type of MDMA at the moment that is considered 'quality' and not 'mehdma'?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Tranced said:


> Is there any particular type of MDMA at the moment that is considered 'quality' and not 'mehdma'?


Their are some very good presses around like blue pushiness, pink teddies. In australia yellow rolex and green gucchis. These are magic other presses i tried had some unknown compound in them along with mdma but the testers couldn't identify it but it felt like some hardcore stimulant mabye  a new synthetic cathione


----------



## epic11

heatlessbbq said:


> Molly isn't ecstasy, homie.



*face palm* This guy is a danger to the harm reduction this website has provided many people. No more responses towards him from me going forward. Sorry to get sucked in guys. The ignorance.


----------



## indigoaura

I do have this bit of info to share, which is interesting to me. I have been having these issues of nausea, dizziness, and lingering stomach problems following MDMA use. This occurs days afterwards usually. This summer, I had a similar next day response to LSD. However, while I was out of town, I had this same response to physical exertion. I did a hike that was a bit too much for my current abilities. It had about a 2000 foot elevation gain in 2.2 miles (then, obviously, the 2.2 mile decline). It was way too hot to be doing the hike. I had water with me, but probably should have had more. In any case, the next day I had the same nausea and dizziness that I get after MDMA. Here is another weird thing...during the hike, I experienced jaw pain and jaw tension as well.

Any theories on what is going on? I have done worse hikes that this before and not ever had next day nausea or dizziness. Seems to me that this is a physiological issue with my body and not something specifically related to the product.


----------



## KS78

@indigoaura, if you don't mind me asking, how old are you? Are you a heavy, often stimulant user? Do you use other substances regularly? You may be getting these issues because of your physical/ mental condition.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> I do have this bit of info to share, which is interesting to me. I have been having these issues of nausea, dizziness, and lingering stomach problems following MDMA use. This occurs days afterwards usually. This summer, I had a similar next day response to LSD. However, while I was out of town, I had this same response to physical exertion. I did a hike that was a bit too much for my current abilities. It had about a 2000 foot elevation gain in 2.2 miles (then, obviously, the 2.2 mile decline). It was way too hot to be doing the hike. I had water with me, but probably should have had more. In any case, the next day I had the same nausea and dizziness that I get after MDMA. Here is another weird thing...during the hike, I experienced jaw pain and jaw tension as well.
> 
> Any theories on what is going on? I have done worse hikes that this before and not ever had next day nausea or dizziness. Seems to me that this is a physiological issue with my body and not something specifically related to the product.



These issues occuring outside of drugs is a bit alarming indigo. With what ive gathered from you over time, im starting to think you have a probiotic gut problem?? Get some high quality probiotics FROM THE FRIDGE (dont get shelf stable, get refrigerated) from your local health food store. And start using them as a supplement. Theres a big correlation to stomach problems and gut bacteria. Have you ever used probiotics before?


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> These issues occuring outside of drugs is a bit alarming indigo. With what ive gathered from you over time, im starting to think you have a probiotic gut problem?? Get some high quality probiotics FROM THE FRIDGE (dont get shelf stable, get refrigerated) from your local health food store. And start using them as a supplement. Theres a big correlation to stomach problems and gut bacteria. Have you ever used probiotics before?


Absolutely no question making a conscious and determined efforts to support and bolster your gut bacteria is a solid recommendation for every and anybody regardless of health and constitution.

Lots of different options. I would always recommend that anybody explore the various lacto-fermented options for probiotics such as homemade sauerkraut, kefir, kombucha, kimichi etc plus loads more.

My mum makes raw sauerkraut using a special South Korean "Onggi pot". It has a special characteristic for developing the ideal microclimates for the fermentation and living microbes, but all in all it just works very well and makes the whole process easy and consistent.


----------



## heatlessbbq

Stay away from the mdMa, Mate. It's cut with meth.


----------



## Phobos

heatlessbbq said:


> Stay away from the mdMa, Mate. It's cut with meth.



Here is the answer to the OP, why did we pointlessly discuss for months, producing a couple thousand posts, while all along we could've just ask you?
Damn.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

heatlessbbq said:


> Stay away from the mdMa, Mate. It's cut with meth.



Well if that's the case, it must be MehMeth as well...  ?


----------



## indigoaura

@KS78 I am 38. I do not drink. Never did meth or opioids. Tried cocaine once about 15 years ago. The only drugs that I have used with any regularity are MDMA, 2CB/2CC, Mushrooms, and LSD. I have a body mass index of 25. Not overweight, but also not marathon fit.

I personally think it is a hormonal issue, as I have had extensive bloodwork done within the last few months and high estrogen/high cortisol are the only irregularities in the bloodwork. High estrogen can mess with water retention and cause nausea under certain circumstances.

@epic11 Been taking high quality probiotics for at least a decade. I have food allergies, and I am pretty on top of the gut situation as far as I know. I don't have stomach issues normally, just these weird "episodes" that seem to follow specific stimuli.


----------



## mooka

looks like this discussion been ongoing from some time already...
here..
adds nothing really... just a rant from some other clueless folks that i found


----------



## AutoTripper

Hello Indigo. Always nice to see your posts and real sorry you are struggling with these baffling symptoms. I wish I could help. Health and wellbeing is such a mystery at times isn't it?
So I was just going to say- I have just one year on you at 39, but with a BMI of 16, you trump me there!


indigoaura said:


> I have a body mass index of 25


Haha, no please don't take me wrong I'm not trying to suggest that you are overweight it is just an indication of how remarkably underweight I have gotten to be myself over the past year and a half which has been a very difficult time.

And actually this BMI of 16 is not accurate for me because I have a match larger and wider frame with hips and shoulders an average so the calculation would be inaccurate for my height, more like 14.5 or 15 BMI.

I'm working it to increase my weight on my strength which will boost my immune system and will be the only way in fact. Also until I have addressed this priority can gotten myself into a stronger physical shape it will not be possible for me to consider taking my MDMA pills. 

I really must make up some considerable ground first but in the meantime I will endeavour to enjoy my lysergamides as frequently as I can manage because they seem to do me the most extraordinary benefit with each and every trip it is like a new layer of healing and release is automatically occurring.

I also tried Miprocin, 4-Ho-Mipt the first time last week and it was actually surprisingly reminiscent of MDMA in a number of ways and was the most MDMA like experience I have had for 14 years.

I only took a small 10 mg dose, but it was a surpisingly decent psychedelic experience boosted by cannabis vaporizing and edibles. It was the first time  I ever tried a tryptamine, and in particular I was surprised by the total lack of anxiety on the come up which I do experience with acid(s).

The Miprocin was just purely deeply relaxing and comforting and I found the experience to be remarkably releasing and healing as well and certainly there was some similarities with MDMA in terms of how mentally and emotionally free I was as soon as the substance affected me and these positive benefits have lasted since although I did top the experience up with 200ug of 1plsd about 11 hours later which was a really fantastic trip).


----------



## Phobos

How much validity is there to this post?
When was this synth popular?



> I also don't really understand what the "8 hour roll" talk is all about. I'm not clear if some people can actually roll that long on MDMA, are actually taking another drug and don't know it, or roll 8 hours on their first few rolls after they burn up excess serotonin reserves but never again have such an experience.
> 
> I can say that the duration of my first few rolls bordered on several hours long.
> But, I now know that the methylamine.HCl that was used in the synth contained a high percentage of ammonium chloride, which would have resulted in a mixture of MDA/MDMA after reductive amination, perhaps 30% MDA!
> This was the result of the hexamine/HCl - methylamine synth. It is a bit on the finicky side, and without chlorform it's difficult to separate the methylamine HCl from the ammonium chloride.
> The result was one hell of a roll, for quite a few hours. I recall peaking for nearly 5 hours the first few times, with fairly small doses (less than 100mg). I do not recall being trippy, as I tend to get now with larger doses of MDA. This is my point, just a little MDA can really spice up MDMA, at least for some people. I believe this ESPECIALLY applies to the first experiences.
> But, I am convinced this is the result of "first time e-xperience" + MDA presence that is responsible for that. Actually, my very first dose was about 70mg (I was afraid, okay?), and I rolled for quite a few hours off that.
> It may be more applicable to people who have never been exposed to any amphetamines before.


----------



## AutoTripper

Phobos said:


> How much validity is there to this post?
> When was this synth popular?


Just spotted something- have you somehow, and I can't picture how- quoted me just 1 line at the very bottom there?


AutoTripper said:


> as the substance affected me and these positive benefits have lasted since although I did top the experience up with 200ug of 1plsd about 11 hours later which was a really fantastic trip).


Haha just checked. Not sure how you did that bro? Lol. Hope the week has begun well for everybody.


----------



## methyldreams

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  Of course the eye wiggles and chattiness etc.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!


my opinion is that they way its prioduced is not creating the magical L-R isomers lie it use to


----------



## Phobos

AutoTripper said:


> Just spotted something- have you somehow, and I can't picture how- quoted me just 1 line at the very bottom there?
> 
> Haha just checked. Not sure how you did that bro? Lol. Hope the week has begun well for everybody.


What you on about mate, I didn't quote anything of yours.
It's not like I edited it out before writing this or any shit like that.


----------



## methyldreams

PHOBOS TOU TALKING TO ME


----------



## AutoTripper

Phobos said:


> What you on about mate, I didn't quote anything of yours.
> It's not like I edited it out before writing this or any shit like that.


Hey Im not accusing you of anything just to be clear, it just spun me out a bit to suddenly see my own words attached to the bottom of your quote, which I assumed was from another forum but maybe I missed that from this thread.

I never meant to suggest you quoted me intentionally or consciously for any reason, or that it was even yourself. I just spotted it, it obviously happebed somehow I just thought it was a bit unusual.  I see you edited it out now. Where did you taje that quote from? Was it this thread?

Sorry for any misunderstanding I genuinely wasn't insinuating anything.


----------



## methyldreams

ALL YOU KUNTS NEED TOI CHILL THE FUCK OUT


----------



## Phobos

AutoTripper said:


> Hey Im not accusing you of anything just to be clear, it just spun me out a bit to suddenly see my own words attached to the bottom of your quote, which I assumed was from another forum but maybe I missed that from this thread.
> 
> I never meant to suggest you quoted me intentionally or consciously for any reason, or that it was even yourself. I just spotted it, it obviously happebed somehow I just thought it was a bit unusual.  I see you edited it out now. Where did you taje that quote from? Was it this thread?
> 
> Sorry for any misunderstanding I genuinely wasn't insinuating anything.


Dude I was joking sorry I thought it was obvious I was apologies LOL
I said "It's not like I edited it out before writing this" because that's exactly what I did, and it was easy to verify that I did it as it shows the edit time that is after you posted about it.
I thought it was fun to deny something I obviously did.
As to how I did it I dunno, probably I multiquoted something and messed up somehow.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> I do have this bit of info to share, which is interesting to me. I have been having these issues of nausea, dizziness, and lingering stomach problems following MDMA use. This occurs days afterwards usually. This summer, I had a similar next day response to LSD. However, while I was out of town, I had this same response to physical exertion. I did a hike that was a bit too much for my current abilities. It had about a 2000 foot elevation gain in 2.2 miles (then, obviously, the 2.2 mile decline). It was way too hot to be doing the hike. I had water with me, but probably should have had more. In any case, the next day I had the same nausea and dizziness that I get after MDMA. Here is another weird thing...during the hike, I experienced jaw pain and jaw tension as well.
> 
> Any theories on what is going on? I have done worse hikes that this before and not ever had next day nausea or dizziness. Seems to me that this is a physiological issue with my body and not something specifically related to the product.



good to know, glad you are on top of it. The amount of people that have no idea the gut is sort of another "brain" is oustounding. If you listen to your body, the answer was always there! Yay!! 

@AutoTripper I agree if you have the means to make homemade kefir and the likes. ITS A GREAT PROBIOTIC. Even better than supplementation. Whole food!


----------



## epic11

methyldreams said:


> ALL YOU KUNTS NEED TOI CHILL THE FUCK OUT


We found the guy. Its the aussies! They making the meh-dma! He doesnt want us talking about it!


----------



## mooka

There was already people saying taking a gram of mdma without severe effects (ie. hospitalisation/seizures etc), i mean a gram, even of the tartaric salt is a heroic/idiotic dosage.
so at the time 2005 people already was rolling on something way weaker than magicM


Phobos said:


> How much validity is there to this post?
> When was this synth popular?


----------



## AutoTripper

mooka said:


> There was already people saying taking a gram of mdma without severe effects (ie. hospitalisation/seizures etc), i mean a gram, even of the tartaric salt is a heroic/idiotic dosage.
> so at the time 2005 people already was rolling on something way weaker than magicM


Up until April 2005 in UK there was both excellent MDMA and pills. It must have been literally the second half of 2005 when the initial big changes started to be noticed.


----------



## AutoTripper

Phobos said:


> Dude I was joking sorry I thought it was obvious I was apologies LOL
> I said "It's not like I edited it out before writing this" because that's exactly what I did, and it was easy to verify that I did it as it shows the edit time that is after you posted about it.
> I thought it was fun to deny something I obviously did.
> As to how I did it I dunno, probably I multiquoted something and messed up somehow.


Haha all good thanks for clearing that up, glad I never annoyed you that was my only concern. I am a joker myself it's nice to be on the receiving end when I get the chance. 

Yeah, really not sure how you did that and got my line in there, not that I mind in any way lol. Call it my 15 minutes of fame. ?


----------



## Echotango

I don't believe a lot of users wait long enough in between rolls. If you want to roll like for decades and not just half a decade of fun in your total life time I am talking about rolling your nutz off even when your in a Retirement Home wearing a diaper at age 80 you need to use it roughly every 5-6 Months Shulgan and the Theory seems to be 3 Months and your Serotonin and everything is recovered. I read an Article literally ten years ago so I can find it now even if I tried with all the articles about how long it takes to recover from MDMA on Google but it said after 5-6 Months a Receptor in your Brain will heal and cause for lack of a better technical way to explain it a Tsunami/Tidal Wave of good emotions compared to say if your using every 3 Months at the very moment you fully recover instead of living life a little longer fully recovered and letting the Receptors and things that cause the high recover not just your health fully causes only large amounts of Serotonin and Oxytocin being released Vs. a rush of it that is how it was described from what I remember.

Read about Users that have used for over 10 Years and only use once a year maybe twice they say and it feels like the first time every time and ever since I stopped using it every 3 Months cause I started to notice probably combined or unrelated depression due to other things in my life so I decided to try waiting between uses every 5-6 Months... it was fucking AMAZING when i tried it again and I couldn't believe it compared to just waiting 3 Months but that is just my experience your over-use or under use will determine your experience with how long between uses like diet and most importantly daily quality of sleep to recover as best as possible. If you abused it even for a night of say using it for 24 Hours straight Vs. just one dose and maybe a re-up dose sometime into the roll and that's your good otherwise you should wait a Year to recover people that use daily like dozens of pills or a gram of mdma daily despite it not getting them High except maybe a bit of Dopamine release? Daily Use believe it or not or just too frequent like every weekend long-term users required 2 Years instead of 1 Year to fully recover these studies are all over the place some claim that heavy daily long-term users might not ever fully recover even after 2 Years without use.


I love MDMA as much as anyone who loves it the most hence I wait 5-6 Months between a roll hell if it's been 3 Months or even 1 Months and a special "occasion pops up" I would use it but just ONCE I admit that. Otherwise why risk loosing the Magic from just such a magically perfect drug that should be respected and used responsibly or your brain will sort of reject it's release of chemicals in a lack of a better way to explain it your brain thinks of MDMA when used daily long-term and you loose the magic cause it thinks "Oh shit not this stuff again i remember this Poison it won't release all those chemicals at once" but that is a stupid theory of mine not a fact at all.


----------



## hyroller

you know what, being that mdma was what it was 13 years ago I can guess that the problem with 'todays' batch is that it is still black market propaganda and not nearly the love sensation that it's cracked up to be. I thought I was rocking the casbah, lol, hence I was clearly taken by a chemical that is best enjoyed as a once-off, not a rudimentary. it's a bad drug to make a recurring habit out of. and I think it's endemic to far too many rich nations to be justified as a viable pastime. got what I mean. some people would kill for a stolid meal whereas some folks are seriously double-dropping like it's going out of fashion. some things the mouth should scan and reject just based on a justifiable lack of braincells for having md play a role in one's social scene. not cool upon reflection. i have all but done a 180 on md.


----------



## Phobos

hyroller said:


> you know what, being that mdma was what it was 13 years ago I can guess that the problem with 'todays' batch is that it is still black market propaganda and not nearly the love sensation that it's cracked up to be. I thought I was rocking the casbah, lol, hence I was clearly taken by a chemical that is best enjoyed as a once-off, not a rudimentary. it's a bad drug to make a recurring habit out of. and I think it's endemic to far too many rich nations to be justified as a viable pastime. got what I mean. some people would kill for a stolid meal whereas some folks are seriously double-dropping like it's going out of fashion. some things the mouth should scan and reject just based on a justifiable lack of braincells for having md play a role in one's social scene. not cool upon reflection. i have all but done a 180 on md.



This is quite unrelated to this thread, but there are plenty reasons not to double drop like it's going out of fashion, and the disparity of wealth between 1st world and the rest is not one.


----------



## hyroller

to each his own. when I see starving children on TV I am thinking they are not in the formative stages of a class-a drug habit.


----------



## AutoTripper

hyroller said:


> to each his own. when I see starving children on TV I am thinking they are not in the formative stages of a class-a drug habit.


I understand where you are coming from. I'm sure I have had identical thoughts to that myself, producing a feeling of guilt and self disgust how I would struggle to be happy and content without getting my way as in some high quality MDMA on top of my three-course first world meal lol! (and the rest)

But I no longer look at things like that and I understand that we all have our own unique spiritual journey and experience of life which I believe is part of our destiny and if it is our hearts desire to experiment with the purest and most enlightening and enjoyable of hallucinogenic substances then so be it, we only live once and who is just say what ultimately is right and wrong and justified or not?


----------



## Phobos

hyroller said:


> to each his own. when I see starving children on TV I am thinking they are not in the formative stages of a class-a drug habit.


So what are you saying is that abstaining from taking drugs benefits the extremely poor people that are not part of the 1st world in some way?
Or are you saying that it's not morally ok to enjoy yourself using drugs as you would create an even bigger disparity in enjoyability of life experience between you and any member of 2nd, 3rd and 4th world countries?


----------



## hyroller

i am just saying, imagine these guys had a full belly of food and had social stories like this to part forth with. I am asserting that drugs in the first world, where they correlate with third world living conditions, is probably more suited to a thread discussing cocaine. but it's still classified as class a drugs of dependence from where I hail. there's little gratification knowing that party pills are plaguing people where a hot meal is still considered a blessing in certain regions of the earth we inhabit. these guys aren't all sitting waiting in vain for their drugs to spontaneously kick in. be a little fair, it's called being sensitive to some audiences who still have a zero drug policy but also have no formation of a black market through which these things circulate. the 21st century is not exactly much but sharp. ah well, i'll spare the afterthought for perhaps TDS or the like.. though there is an added layer of guilt should you be found guilty of gratuitously sponsoring the drug market whilst not sponsoring a child in a poor nation. at the very least.


----------



## sassyfrass

Here's an idea, we should boycott mehdma untill its magic again.


----------



## Phobos

hyroller said:


> i am just saying, imagine these guys had a full belly of food and had social stories like this to part forth with. I am asserting that drugs in the first world, where they correlate with third world living conditions, is probably more suited to a thread discussing cocaine. but it's still classified as class a drugs of dependence from where I hail. there's little gratification knowing that party pills are plaguing people where a hot meal is still considered a blessing in certain regions of the earth we inhabit. these guys aren't all sitting waiting in vain for their drugs to spontaneously kick in. be a little fair, it's called being sensitive to some audiences who still have a zero drug policy but also have no formation of a black market through which these things circulate. the 21st century is not exactly much but sharp. ah well, i'll spare the afterthought for perhaps TDS or the like.. though there is an added layer of guilt should you be found guilty of gratuitously sponsoring the drug market whilst not sponsoring a child in a poor nation. at the very least.


If that is how/what you think about drugs, I agree it is a very good idea that you don't take any.


----------



## G_Chem

Phobos said:


> How much validity is there to this post?
> When was this synth popular?



So what they outline in that post is one of many reasons this task we have in front of us is so hard..

What they are describing is essentially impure homemade methylamine.  Methylamine is used in many of the synthesis routes described for MDMA.  When made via hexamine, ammonium chloride is a major impurity which when taken along with methylamine into the final reaction can cause MDA to form as well.

It’s my belief this was likely most commonly an issue from the late 90’s to the late 00’s when smaller chemists began to take more of the load in regards to production and supply.

Also that thread linked is viewing the differences between late 80’s to mid/late 90’s MDMA compared to 2000-2009 MDMA.  If ya’ll remember I talk of a few different eras, these would be the first two more or less.  The first marked by Leuckart synthesis MDMA, the second being when production was splintered to more smaller chemists which often used routes like AL/HG.

Notice how he asks why MDMA doesn’t last as long? Quoting 8 hours..  It’s my belief Leuckart MDMA and MDA lasted longer and was overall more stimulating.

Edit- Just a recap..

Late 80’s to late 90’s - Era 1 - Leuckart Mdma.

Marked by longer duration, increase stimulation compared to pure MDMA, and a Marquis reaction that goes black to dark blue over a minute.  Typically induced nasty Tuesday blues, users often reported feeling wrecked in the week after.

2000-2009 - Era 2 - Smaller Scale Production, often Al/Hg (relatively.. overall more chemists and more variety)

Duration shorter, more in line with pure MDMA.  Less stimulation but also less nasty after depression, afterglows become more common.  Marquis reacts purple to dark purple/black.

2010-Now - Era 3 - PMK glycidate, large scale production takes off again

Duration EVEN shorter.  Instead of stimulation or neutral energy, often sedating in nature.  Little pupil dilation or empathy for strangers.  Overall missing something..

-GC


----------



## epic11

^ recap here is a good little timeline. A "general idea" of times of mdma and production routes theories.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@G_Chem  So, I finally dried out my A/B extraction, you were right, I hadn't lost everything.  Took ages (like two days) to dry out and then I washed it with water and it took another two days to dry out even with a fan.

I tried it this weekend.  Overall it didn't make a huge difference, but, there were a couple of points to make.

1) I've been put on propranolol recently because of migraine symptoms.  I didn't see interactions online with this, and tbf haven't noticed much being on it, but it could have been an issue maybe
2) I thought I had dried it out but am willing to accept there may have been water left in, I don't really know how to tell how dry it is
3) I did 200mg rather than my usual 280mg.  I'm a bit on the big side so even in the magic days I needed two pills to feel much, but I had assumed 200mg would have been plenty
4) All the reagent tests were as normal, except for marquis.  This was a lot less strong, went to lightish purple rather than black, and took quite a while doing it.  Mandelin, Mecke and Simon reacted as strongly as usual.

The experience with fairly weak, but felt cleaner.  It seemed on the verge of doing something but never quite got there.  And I was definitely coming down after 3hrs if not before.

So, either:

a) the a/b extraction didn't get rid of the problem contaminant
b) it wasn't the magic mdma in there (stereo isomer, positional isomer, etc...)
c) it hadn't dried out enough and I actually took a much weaker dose.
d) the propranolol messed things up

That Marquis reaction was definitely strange and different compared to what I was used to.


----------



## mooka

I remember that in the years I used to go clubbing every week or so (from 95 to 98 more or less) pills were quite stimulating, at the point that with two tabs, one in for the club and one for the after we were able to dance with all our souls from 1 am to 12 pm 
But occasionally we would find several different ones with similar but not the exact same effect, I remember very well two cases: one was an extremely clear experience, not urge to dance, but was glowing from the empathy and feeling well with the whole universe.. I guess this means pure mdma (i'm in europe anyway... if that's matter)
Another time was the perfect extasy for me... very long lasting, very psychedelic (closed eyes visuals) in a way completely different than lsd, mushrooms, 2cb etc... still totally social and dancey... still wondering what substance was...



ThreePointCircle said:


> @G_Chem  So, I finally dried out my A/B extraction, you were right, I hadn't lost everything.  Took ages (like two days) to dry out and then I washed it with water and it took another two days to dry out even with a fan.
> 
> I tried it this weekend.  Overall it didn't make a huge difference, but, there were a couple of points to make.
> 
> 1) I've been put on propranolol recently because of migraine symptoms.  I didn't see interactions online with this, and tbf haven't noticed much being on it, but it could have been an issue maybe
> 2) I thought I had dried it out but am willing to accept there may have been water left in, I don't really know how to tell how dry it is
> 3) I did 200mg rather than my usual 280mg.  I'm a bit on the big side so even in the magic days I needed two pills to feel much, but I had assumed 200mg would have been plenty
> 4) All the reagent tests were as normal, except for marquis.  This was a lot less strong, went to lightish purple rather than black, and took quite a while doing it.  Mandelin, Mecke and Simon reacted as strongly as usual.
> 
> The experience with fairly weak, but felt cleaner.  It seemed on the verge of doing something but never quite got there.  And I was definitely coming down after 3hrs if not before.
> 
> So, either:
> 
> a) the a/b extraction didn't get rid of the problem contaminant
> b) it wasn't the magic mdma in there (stereo isomer, positional isomer, etc...)
> c) it hadn't dried out enough and I actually took a much weaker dose.
> d) the propranolol messed things up
> 
> That Marquis reaction was definitely strange and different compared to what I was used to.


what mdma salt did u make? asking because with HCl salt you should obtain a much potent substance than the original, with full on effects at 120mg


----------



## ThreePointCircle

mooka said:


> what mdma salt did u make? asking because with HCl salt you should obtain a much potent substance than the original, with full on effects at 120mg



I used HCl


----------



## mooka

mmm i'm more and more convinced that the amination process they use is the responsible for the crappy mdma... Leuckart, Al/Hg amalgam and NaBH4 reduction... with those no one ever complained...


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> Late 80’s to late 90’s - Era 1 - Leuckart Mdma.
> 
> Marked by longer duration, increase stimulation compared to pure MDMA, and a Marquis reaction that goes black to dark blue over a minute. Typically induced nasty Tuesday blues, users often reported feeling wrecked in the week after





G_Chem said:


> 2000-2009 - Era 2 - Smaller Scale Production, often Al/Hg (relatively.. overall more chemists and more variety)
> 
> Duration shorter, more in line with pure MDMA. Less stimulation but also less nasty after depression, afterglows become more common. Marquis reacts purple to dark purple/black.


Interesting distinctions here. This stuff is sp hard to be objective about, but this does resonate. 
When I first began using MDMA, and right up to 2000 in fact, I would indeed experience quite intense blues and depression the week afterwards particularly that midweek crash where consoling oneself and exercising mind over matter would simply be impossible owing to the biological dominance.

And in the early 2000s is when I was taking more MDMA than ever but really not suffering the same acute dip and depression afterwards each time, with more of an afterglow.

I remember well those intense, hellish comedown blues with so much sadness.

And I cannot recall experiencing that to anywhere near the same extent in early 2000's.


----------



## psy997

I began taking MDMA in 2014-15 and have never experienced the Tuesday Blues, or similar, for reference.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Hello everyone! Have some experiences to relay:

This past weekend was 1 year since I last rolled, which was with the magic mdma. Was really, really, nervous I was going to get crappy mdma, lot of pressure to have a good time if you know what I mean. Friend of mine ~2 months earlier found some "quartz" looking MDMA (white/transparent, scentless, large full looking crystals), it turned out to be the good stuff according to all the people I know who had tried it an earlier festival that are also on the same page about this MDMA problem. I didn't get to try it, but we were all very excited and it was definitely the stuff by their estimates.

Unfortunately, my friend who had acquired it was unable to get more in the time between that festival and the one I just went to. So, all he had left was ~1 gram of it from that first festival. He felt bad since I had asked to get some from him in case it would be all gone by the time I wanted it, but he had reassured me we could easily get more, but it was unavailable... So, he gave me and girlfriend 100mg each of that precious gram. My friend has begun calling this sort of MDMA "Bliss". I really wanted a second set of 100mg capsules of it for another night, but it wouldn't have been fair to everyone who wanted it, we figured we would split it as best we could for everyone to have one really good night. He had some other stuff called he "Honey", a light tan/golden/yellow color, that he said is good but in his estimates/experiences it is not quite the magic/"Bliss".

We took the 100mg of "Bliss", I was unsure if I was going to get what I wanted out of it, fearing I was going to jinx the experiences by expecting too much and being too certain of the drugs properties based off of second-hand reports and the physical appearance of the drug alone (passing plenty of tests as plenty pure MDMA). And... I was most certainly not dissapointed, it was like time rolliing all over again, and it happened similar to the year prior; there was a longer period between taking it and beginning to feel the comeup, a much more gradual and loved up come-up, immediately synergizing with the LSD visuals, that MDMA-vision settling in; people around look beautiful, lights have massive halos around them complimenting the LSD fractal-like patterns. My girlfriend always mentions how good her hair feels brushing on her shoulders when its the magic stuff.  I certainly had to stand up and do some pacing/stretches/deep breaths as it felt like it literally knocked the wind out of me, but it was so lovey and gradual that it never overwhelmed me or made me anxious/paranoid. what pursued was the best night I've had since, well uh, the last time I had this stuff a year prior. I can 100% confirm its the magic stuff. I feel like my connection with my girlfriend and other friends has been renewed, rejuvenated and reinforced after that night. Full mydriasis, very cuddly/melty and loved up as we just lounged in the grass by the river for the come-up, but once we got around high energy music, getting up and dancing like maniacs wasn't a challenge at all.

Another point, a friend of mine who I've rolled with many times, the past few times he's had MDMA, its not been the magic stuff; he gets really tired, yawns like crazy, eyes don't fully dilate, becomes more introverted, sometimes overwhelmed, and generally doesn't have a great time. This time I made sure he got 100mg of the Bliss, I don't even really talk to him about the magic versus meh debate thing, and he said it was the best night he's had in years. He had fully dilated pupils, up and dancing, permanent grin on his face, and no yawns/wanting to lay down and keep to himself. Even he commented to me about the yawns and stuff, just totally different symptoms.

Some other points that I notice with the magic stuff; just the way music _sounds_ changes, its difficult to describe but it feels like its being hardwired into my brain, you reeeeaaaalllyy feel it. Very strong jaw clenching, didn't have a sore jaw or chewed mouth the next day, but my girlfriend and I were almost chattering. Cold temp feels REALLY cold. Quite sweaty, but I think this is mainly because it really makes you want to dance as opposed to lean against something and nod your head. ZERO hangover or comedown, I took it on Friday and I'm still glowing now almost (again, disclaimer, even from MehDMA I don't get a hangover/comedown)

Didn't end up rolling a second night as I was unable to find anything that looked promising. My friend, the one who i'm very on the same page about this stuff with, found some stuff that was a fine white powder, tested just fine, he took 150mg of it and said it was pretty good but "definitely not the dank dank". Difficult to say since he took 100mg of the Bliss two night previous, but IME I roll just as hard if not harder (not sure why) the second night a roll on the same dose and he has found this to be true as well.

I spoke with the people running the drug testing using Raman and FTIR, really didn't have time to delve into this whole discussion that this thread is about, but they showed me a bit of how their machiens work but I was sort of confused. It produces this graph that they find the "best" match to in some database of substances. Which instantly confused me as, if its MDMA, shouldn't the graph be EXACTLY the same? What causes the differences in graphs produced by two samples of perfectly pure MDMA? What about substances not in this database that could produce similar graphs? Would MDMA regioisomers and isobaries produce similar/same graph as MDMA? They showed that "rogue peaks" indicate other substances, but really couldn't tell me much about more subtle differences between graphs, or what the peaks are based off of (i.e. if the peaks are based on molecular weight, couldn't regioisomers/isobaries produce the same graph and thus fool the system?).

Just looking at the graph that the MDMA sample we brought in looked like, overlayed on the MDMA reference graph, they were certainly not identical, it was the same shape and definitely a fit (as in, the 6 main peaks that indicate MDMA were clearly matching), but there was ton of other "noise" and smaller inconsistencies going on. They didn't seem to think much of this, so its possible that the FTIR just gets a slightly different reading every time even with the same sample just based on the nature of the test? IDK shit about all this stuff


----------



## Phobos

The MDMA I have been taking since circa 2014 till now, even when it felt like I had MagicDMA, never was as strong and as psychedelic and physically stimulating as the MagicDMA I used in 2011 to 2013. Also duration was shorter by like 2-3 hours.


----------



## sassyfrass

Its getting more evident that long lasting tolerance must play a bigger role in this than i thought.
Seeing as everyone says "the first time is always the best". Meaning the first few times your introduced to the substance.

This would explain Older MDMA having more magic to most people.
some evidence to support this claim:

Friend A has been rolling roughly 100mg every month or two.
Friend B has had his hay-day with MDMA in the 90's and hasn't rolled since.

Both had 100mg of the same batch.

Friend A says he felt "chilled out" and in the zone but not as much as from earlier batches.
Friend B says he ended up only taking half the dose and had a really great time, he then had another great night on the other half.

This makes me think its not always the product quality giving us magic but the stored neurotransmitters being unleashed.

I myself have always correlated Pupil Dilation to the "magicalness" of the experience, magicDMA should make your pupils almost completely eclipse your iris at 1-200mg.


----------



## Phobos

sassyfrass said:


> Its getting more evident that long lasting tolerance must play a bigger role in this than i thought.
> Seeing as everyone says "the first time is always the best". Meaning the first few times your introduced to the substance.
> 
> This would explain Older MDMA having more magic to most people.
> some evidence to support this claim:
> 
> Friend A has been rolling roughly 100mg every month or two.
> Friend B has had his hay-day with MDMA in the 90's and hasn't rolled since.
> 
> Both had 100mg of the same batch.
> 
> Friend A says he felt "chilled out" and in the zone but not as much as from earlier batches.
> Friend B says he ended up only taking half the dose and had a really great time, he then had another great night on the other half.
> 
> This makes me think its not always the product quality giving us magic but the stored neurotransmitters being unleashed.
> 
> I myself have always correlated Pupil Dilation to the "magicalness" of the experience, magicDMA should make your pupils almost completely eclipse your iris at 1-200mg.



This is a problem in some instances, yes, but there has been numerous reports of MagicDMA producing intended effects reliably, then same user takes MehDMA and doesn't enjoy the MehXperience, than a week or less later takes MagicDMA and rolls just fine.


----------



## Hilopsilo

I think we can narrow our hypotheses down to two main ideas;

*1.)* _*"*_*The problem is the MDMA itself". *Producers of MDMA are either inadvertently or intentionally synthesizing an isobaric or isomeric (regioisomer, structural isomer, "isobaric amine", etc.) produces similar effects to 3,4 MDMA and registers as MDMA on many testing methods due to identical molecular mass or some other similarity. There is a substantial amount of literature on the difficulties of differentiating between these.

It is possible that producers are either creating this stuff on purpose as its cheaper/easier and they know they can get away with it. It is also possible that its happening by inadvertently due to changing production circumstances. I tend to want to believe the latter as I feel in the age of the internet there'd be at least something somewhere about it if it was on purpose due to cheaper costs and not a lot of people noticing.

_What we need to know more about__:_ What are the exact testing methods of available drug testing services? What are they looking for and how? Are the machines capable but only capable if you're looking for these things specifically?

2.) *"The problem is something leftover in the MDMA" *Depending on the production method chosen and skill of the chemist, leftover precursor or "organic impurities" are present in the final product and have an orders-of-magnitude impact on the subjective effects dose-for-dose. There is some literature on leftover precursor and organic impurities, but zero literature on the effects these might have when ingested.

It is not uncommon for MDP2P and other precursors (see Ecstasy Data) to be found in MDMA samples, it is possible that these interfere with the action of MDMA directly, but at the same time there is no evidence to say so. I do not believe it is possible that leftover precursor/organic impurities are the cause of differing effects purely due to diluting MDMA in a sample as they occur in such small amounts (usually, and in my own case).

_What we need to know more about: _What the hell are organic impurities and how could they affect the subjective effects? Have they ever been measured by drug testing services? Could the organic impurities from specific synthesis methods actually be beneficial? This all sort of reminds me of terpenes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15826368 "_The identification of 3,4-MDMA from its mass equivalent isomers and isobaric substances using fast LC-ESI-MS-MS."
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/236243.pdf "Synthesis and Analytical Profiles for Regioisomeric and Isobaric Amines Related to MDMA, MDEA and MBDB: Differentiation of Drug and non-Drug Substances of Mass Spectral Equivalence"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15693185 "Chromatographic and mass spectral studies on isobaric and isomeric substances related to 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25617761 "Organic impurity profiling of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) synthesised from catechol."_ just read the abstract, sounds pretty interesting. From what I understand it sounds like there are specific "organic impurity" profiles that result from specific synthesis routes. I imagine the volumet of organic impurities created by a specific synthesis route varies by skill of the chemist/quality of the synthesis execution. Maybe some routes create specific organic impurities that interact with the MDMA? Or some routes on average create greater volumes of their organic impurity profiles than others (as in, XYZ method generally results in a smaller amount of organic impurities than ABC method).


----------



## Phobos

There is something I keep noticing when looking at offers from some vendors, it's not rare that one vendor has got 2 different types of MDMA on stock most of the time, say Cola and Champagne, and they also have slightly different prices.
This seems extremely odd to me, is it 2 different substances, or are both MDMA? If yes, are the visual differences due to different impurities from different routes? Or is something being added at some point to cater to different customers with different visual expectations for their MDMA? I've heard people swear by either. Don't really know what to think but this type of tactics only contributes to confusion in the market... 
I wonder how it is that people can get away with selling unwashed crystals AND convince their customer base to look for some colour given by the impurities as a sign of quality.


----------



## AutoTripper

Hilopsilo said:


> Cold temp feels REALLY cold.


Guys can you believe I have so many times forgotten, or rather failed to remember this specific aspect of MDMA. Reading that has got me wondering:
When I first began my MDMA use in 1996, it was impossible to take the drug and not become aware of the way it greatly enhanced your perception of cold when you went outside on a chilly night for example or even if you left the nice warm living room to visit the toilet you would be perishing cold until you returned to the warm environment, always telling a story on your return about your experience of having been out in the Blizzard and glad to be back again unlike Captain Oates lol.

This effect was especially pronounced at the legal indoor Helter Skelter and Dreamscape raves we used to visit in Milton Keynes. Everytime we would go outside you would be literally freezing and couldn't wait to go back in.

Now when I think back to my heavier years of consumption between 2000 and 2005 when I took the vast majority of my MDMA and considered the vast majority of it to be of excellent quality and in no way lacking and inferior as far as I considered at the time, I really do not have much if any recollection of experiencing this same phenomenon regarding the enhancement of a cold environment while on MDMA.


Maybe my own physiology was different and I just didn't experience this personally or perhaps my nervous system adapted to the effects and regulated my temperature better but I genuinely do not think I was experiencing this affect anywhere near the same degree in the early 2000s unlike I was between 1996 and the late 90s.

I only mention this in relation to @G_Chem 's proposed timeline for the different eras.

I'm very open to the idea that there were some subjective experiential differences between the MDMA I was taking in the 90s and that of the early 2000s.

But I certainly was not complaining and in relation to what we were discussing beforehand i.e. the midweek blues and depression following use, I think I will have to say I preferred the MDMA of the 2000s because the comedowns seems so much easier to deal with for me.


----------



## sassyfrass

Indeed the vasoconstriction would often make my hands and feet very cold, but it seems on the good stuff i would be sweating profusely especially when coming up, this was in the summer though apposed to winter.

funny how the absolute best stuff ive had was either brown or purpley pink and had the most Pungent saffy smell.
I dont know about yall but i would taste my rock, and the Magic always had a specific taste, not just full on bitter.


----------



## AutoTripper

sassyfrass said:


> Indeed the vasoconstriction would often make my hands and feet very cold, but it seems on the good stuff i would be sweating profusely especially when coming up, this was in the summer though apposed to winter.
> 
> funny how the absolute best stuff ive had was either brown or purpley pink and had the most Pungent saffy smell.
> I dont know about yall but i would taste my rock, and the Magic always had a specific taste, not just full on bitter.


Yes indeed, we have highlighted these specific characteristics as well, taste and aroma (or shall I call it flavour? Haha, just think of it now MDMA quavers or Monster Munch!)

There have certainly been quite some variables over the years so I guess we shouldn't be surprised really on paper that there has been variation in the actual product and experience over time.


----------



## epic11

Interesting note here. I just heard from a friend that just traveled back from one of north americas biggest and most drug inclusive festivals. They usually have drug testing on site at this festival and are very adamant about harm reduction and drug testing.

This year, they had it on site again, and it was MASS SPECTROMETER!!! At a fucking festival!!! They werent just testing with the standard reagents, they were going to MS at a festival to test your drugs. AMAZING!!!! Thought this thread would like this note.


----------



## Phobos

I have always been naturally highly resistant to cold, when people are already having hoodies plus winter jackets I am still going around in short sleeves and the paper thin pants.
On MDMA I have to watch out to avoid overheating.
I remember I had a few rolls in the woods on winter, at night.
Temp probably between 2 and 5c, windy, high humidity, I was in t shirt and rolled my pants up my shins, found a small pond and just walked in and felt the water was cold but did not even begin to make me feel cold in a few minutes.
Then I put my shoes back on on wet socks, an hour later my socks were dry.
In a club I am always literally pouring, I look like I came from outside and it was raining.


----------



## indigoaura

@Hilopsilo Man, two great posts. I think I felt a little shiver just reading over the first one. You so adeptly described the nuances of a good experience. You commented that, "My girlfriend always mentions how good her hair feels brushing on her shoulders when its the magic stuff." Me too. On good stuff, I am constantly running my fingers around in my hair. You also said, "the way music _sounds_ changes" and I 100% agree. On the right product, I will hear things in music I never heard before (no matter how familiar I am with the song). 

@G_Chem The product I had access too in 2000-2005 matches your description of the 90s product. It was definitely more stimulating with a super rocky Tuesday afterwards.

@epic11 So, does this mean if I went to the right festival I could bring all my samples in and get them tested, and actually chat with the people running the tests about the results? That is pretty exciting news that they have a mass spectrometer at a festival.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> @Hilopsilo Man, two great posts. I think I felt a little shiver just reading over the first one. You so adeptly described the nuances of a good experience. You commented that, "My girlfriend always mentions how good her hair feels brushing on her shoulders when its the magic stuff." Me too. On good stuff, I am constantly running my fingers around in my hair. You also said, "the way music _sounds_ changes" and I 100% agree. On the right product, I will hear things in music I never heard before (no matter how familiar I am with the song).
> 
> @epic11 So, does this mean if I went to the right festival I could bring all my samples in and get them tested, and actually chat with the people running the tests about the results? That is pretty exciting news that they have a mass spectrometer at a festival.



Thanks ahaha, halfway through writing I ran to the bathroom as I swear my pupils were dilating just thinking about the experience. I address that question to @epic11 below a bit.



epic11 said:


> Interesting note here. I just heard from a friend that just traveled back from one of north americas biggest and most drug inclusive festivals. They usually have drug testing on site at this festival and are very adamant about harm reduction and drug testing.
> 
> This year, they had it on site again, and it was MASS SPECTROMETER!!! At a fucking festival!!! They werent just testing with the standard reagents, they were going to MS at a festival to test your drugs. AMAZING!!!! Thought this thread would like this note.



So I think its safe to assume we were at the same place 

Its absolutely wonderful what they have set up, but rightfully so, their main concern is making sure people don't die, not making sure people got the dankest drugs and have the best time possible. The capabilities of their instruments, level of expertise of the technicians operating them, and the time constraints (people might wait 2 hours in line, they want to get people through fast so people don't decide that the wait isn't worth it and take things without testing), its just not the time or place to delve deeply into a bunch of slightly more than half-baked theories and anecdotes. They had like a dozen machines going, but you've got basically thousands of people who want their stuff tested, multiple samples, paperwork, and amateur technicians (I don't mean that negatively, but they are just volunteers who have been shown how to operate the machines for their purposes, nothing more, and certainly not accomplished chemists).

For MDMA they use FTIR, which can only detect substances greater than 5%, as in, anything contained within the sample that is less than 5% wont be picked up by this technique. They check out the mass spectra of the substance and simply match it to a substance in their database. As I said, they couldn't really give me a straight answer as to why the graphs varied sample to sample even if the conclusion was the same. They also run a fentanyl test on all substances.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> @Hilopsilo Man, two great posts. I think I felt a little shiver just reading over the first one. You so adeptly described the nuances of a good experience. You commented that, "My girlfriend always mentions how good her hair feels brushing on her shoulders when its the magic stuff." Me too. On good stuff, I am constantly running my fingers around in my hair. You also said, "the way music _sounds_ changes" and I 100% agree. On the right product, I will hear things in music I never heard before (no matter how familiar I am with the song).
> 
> @G_Chem The product I had access too in 2000-2005 matches your description of the 90s product. It was definitely more stimulating with a super rocky Tuesday afterwards.
> 
> @epic11 So, does this mean if I went to the right festival I could bring all my samples in and get them tested, and actually chat with the people running the tests about the results? That is pretty exciting news that they have a mass spectrometer at a festival.



yea i was gonna with @Hilopsilo here and suggest that its really not gonna be the time or place to have an in depth discussion about it. Its a fast paced moving party, and i imagine there would be lines as hilo said. See that? When people arent afraid of the repurcussions, LINES FORM to test drugs. Thats huge in harm reduction, and makes me smile.


----------



## G_Chem

So I found something interesting after reviewing some notes I made.. IDK if any of you remember but at one point I was going to reagent test 20 or so batches of MDMA/MDA to see if I could see any patterns.  I stopped about halfway through because I felt my reagents (particularly my marquis) were too old.

I stumbled upon the notes again and now having tried a batch of what I believed to be MehDMA I noticed something off.

All the other batches of MDMA I tested (which IMO were high quality batches completely in line with what I’d expect) reacted differently on Mandelin than this potential MehDMA batch.

All the other high quality batches, according to my notes, exhibit a green coloration before going dark. The MehDMA batch went dark blue/black, and apparently didn’t show any green.  Interesting cuz this also the only ecstasy pill I’ve tried since like 2012 or so, all other batches are crystal.

I suggest people go and buy a Mandelin reagent.  This could be another, better, clue in determining between good and bad batches.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

pmk was used in mid 2000's aswell then it got banned and it changed to pmk glyicdate in 2010 but now the UN also  banned it so the dutch chemists have found newer routes that are unknown by authorities. More and more are resorting to bmk i wonder if this is impacting the market having much more steps in the synthesis means more things can go wrong and the resulting product will be a mix of unknown shit. MehDMA sounds like the methylone i use to do during the legal days of it. In some mass scale productions they are making bk-mdma (methylone) first then converting to mdma. 

A massive bust just happened in australia with 700 kg of mdma the purest the police they said they have ever seen. The pills i had been rolling on since 2017 were total magic love mdma that came from australia saldy it looks like the market in NZ will collapse and will be stuck with using all forms of crystal.

I have a small amount of mdma/mda mix left over still but the comedowns are much to harsh though i should follow the 3 month rule but i never have and don't see myself anytime soon til i completely quit using mdma.


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem I will order a Mandelin kit and comment on what I see in all my samples.


----------



## psy997

G_Chem said:


> I suggest people go and buy a Mandelin reagent. This could be another, better, clue in determining between good and bad batches.



Niiiiice.



TripSitterNZ said:


> MehDMA sounds like the methylone i use to do during the legal days of it



Methylone is so much better than MehDMA. The comparisons aren't really accurate IMO.


----------



## Hilopsilo

psy997 said:


> Niiiiice.
> 
> 
> 
> Methylone is so much better than MehDMA. The comparisons aren't really accurate IMO.



Whaaaaaaat, c'mon, I agree that methylone isn't a good comparison, but do you really feel that MehDMA is worse than Methylone? To me there is hardly any comparison at all and you'd know the second you took methylone that what you had is not MDMA even if you're a complete noob to such drugs. MehDMA is similar enough that, well, if it was such an obvious difference to everyone there'd be a lot more noise around this. The similarities between the crappy MDMA and the magic stuff are quite close, but the point is

On a couple of occasions I've had the displeasure of being sold and thereafter consumed "molly" that was some random cathinone, like methylone. It's obvious right away that its not MDMA, cause it isn't.

This is some stoned ass analogy but; say you've purchased a car (MDMA) online and its being delivered to your home, or what you think is supposed to be a specific car that you've been told it is. The magic mdma would be receiving the car, the engine runs fine, everything about it handles just right, full tank of gas, mint-condition, everything you imagined it to be; exact model you purchased. Really no questions asked.

The MehDMA would be getting the car, everything _looks_ fine, its definitely what you ordered and the experts tell you it is, but driving it now something seems off. It's not a bad car, but you're not sure if its a problem with the engine or maybe the breaks, and you swear that the paint job is poorly done, you probably wouldn't buy this car again considering your initial expectations. You think its quite possible that they sold you a different/slightly cheaper model or maybe its a defect.

And then, Methylone would be like receiving that car and realizing its actually 5$ cardboard cutout of the model you purchased, you're angry and are about to get on the phone with the car dealership...

I think the whole point of this discussion was that the MehDMA is similar enough to MDMA that you're sort of scratching your chin a bit, its uncannily similar but most definitely something is off about it. If someone had given me methylone, and after not having the experience I expected, told me that it must just be that I've lost the magic, I'd laugh. But with MehDMA, its a plausible theory on paper IMO, MehDMA sure feels like what I imagine losing the magic feels like (a lot of the same effects without the magical aspect of it), and that would be what I'd still believe today if it wasn't for the batch dependent effects I'm seeing. (unless we as humans are so complex that we go in and out of being able to experience the magic of MDMA based on XYZ factors that we haven't even considered).


----------



## Hilopsilo

_"Feel like maybe I should go over the chemistry behind the brown vs greyish/purple vs clear debate. Brown stuff tends to have leftover safrole, or *partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy*. In very basic terms, someone cooked it too hard in the early stages of synthesis from safrole, or alternatively did everything fine but neglected to do a wash before proceeding with the final steps.

*Greyish color is usually from leftover MDP2P*, and this is a big reason why you tend to see a lot of grey stuff leaving the Netherlands/Germany. They've been known to use pure MDP2P for synthesis rather than go from safrole. I'm pretty sure MDP2P is inactive when ingested, but it's not going to hurt you either.

In the end you can't use color to judge purity at all. Anyone who has done some organic chemistry knows that a .5% impurity can make the color wildly different. That's because relative to the wavelength of light our eyes detect even 1/1000000 of the molecules messing up the crystal structure can really bend or absorb light. Making it appear colored or cloudy.

Personally every time I've had clear stuff it makes me trip out and not be able to dance very well, still amazing but more for like a chill house party than a rave. When I've had browner/tan stuff it gets me up and dancing! Though placebo effect can be a powerful thing.

That stuff about safrole being carcinogenic is complete bullshit. People still use it for rootbeer flavoring at home, or for smaller shops that make their own. The test claiming it caused cancer force-fed rats the equivalent of a human eating like a bathtub of the stuff a week. Even if someone gave you 300 mg of "MDMA" that was actually just crystalized safrole you wouldn't be in any danger. The FDA banned safrole in the late '60s because the hippies over at Berkely were making MDA and having too much fun."

"Hyroxyamphetamine and methoxy-amphetamine impurities. The first steps of the reaction which is an oxidation of the double bond on safrole or isosafrole to MDP2P, has the potential to split open the oxygen ring system on the benzene group. *So instead of selectively making MDMA you make a soup of methoxy and hydroxyamphetamines.* The percentage is down to how aggressive and impatient the chemist is, though it's probably never much more than a few percent and even that would take some real work.

Or it could be completely placebo effect. I really wish it was easy to get a GC/MS or NMR spectra on samples in the US so we could all know for sure. *But even sending it to EcstasyData for analysis they only look for presence/absence of MDMA and don't go investigating if they see a little peak amounting to 5% right around the main compound."*


Crystal or tan MDMA. A survey? from
      SilkRoad
_
Interesting post from reddit. I don't know enough about this stuff to tell if they're full of shit or not. The Meh brown stuff that I tested had MDP2P in it, so that doesn't gel. I'm interested in these "partially split open methylenedioxy ring systems" and "methoxy-amphetamine*"*, how could you test for this? surely if these are such obvious impurities, you'd see them on testing databases, no?

BTW, clicking that reddit link, the photo is EXACTLY what the magic stuff I had last year looked like and what it looked like this year, basically quartz. and no smell.


----------



## Phobos

Hilopsilo said:


> _"Feel like maybe I should go over the chemistry behind the brown vs greyish/purple vs clear debate. Brown stuff tends to have leftover safrole, or *partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy*. In very basic terms, someone cooked it too hard in the early stages of synthesis from safrole, or alternatively did everything fine but neglected to do a wash before proceeding with the final steps.
> 
> *Greyish color is usually from leftover MDP2P*, and this is a big reason why you tend to see a lot of grey stuff leaving the Netherlands/Germany. They've been known to use pure MDP2P for synthesis rather than go from safrole. I'm pretty sure MDP2P is inactive when ingested, but it's not going to hurt you either.
> 
> In the end you can't use color to judge purity at all. Anyone who has done some organic chemistry knows that a .5% impurity can make the color wildly different. That's because relative to the wavelength of light our eyes detect even 1/1000000 of the molecules messing up the crystal structure can really bend or absorb light. Making it appear colored or cloudy.
> 
> Personally every time I've had clear stuff it makes me trip out and not be able to dance very well, still amazing but more for like a chill house party than a rave. When I've had browner/tan stuff it gets me up and dancing! Though placebo effect can be a powerful thing.
> 
> That stuff about safrole being carcinogenic is complete bullshit. People still use it for rootbeer flavoring at home, or for smaller shops that make their own. The test claiming it caused cancer force-fed rats the equivalent of a human eating like a bathtub of the stuff a week. Even if someone gave you 300 mg of "MDMA" that was actually just crystalized safrole you wouldn't be in any danger. The FDA banned safrole in the late '60s because the hippies over at Berkely were making MDA and having too much fun."
> 
> "Hyroxyamphetamine and methoxy-amphetamine impurities. The first steps of the reaction which is an oxidation of the double bond on safrole or isosafrole to MDP2P, has the potential to split open the oxygen ring system on the benzene group. *So instead of selectively making MDMA you make a soup of methoxy and hydroxyamphetamines.* The percentage is down to how aggressive and impatient the chemist is, though it's probably never much more than a few percent and even that would take some real work.
> 
> Or it could be completely placebo effect. I really wish it was easy to get a GC/MS or NMR spectra on samples in the US so we could all know for sure. *But even sending it to EcstasyData for analysis they only look for presence/absence of MDMA and don't go investigating if they see a little peak amounting to 5% right around the main compound."*
> 
> 
> Crystal or tan MDMA. A survey? from
> SilkRoad
> _
> Interesting post from reddit. I don't know enough about this stuff to tell if they're full of shit or not. The Meh brown stuff that I tested had MDP2P in it, so that doesn't gel. I'm interested in these "partially split open methylenedioxy ring systems" and "methoxy-amphetamine*"*, how could you test for this? surely if these are such obvious impurities, you'd see them on testing databases, no?
> 
> BTW, clicking that reddit link, the photo is EXACTLY what the magic stuff I had last year looked like and what it looked like this year, basically quartz. and no smell.



You mention that some practices can lead to the presence of hydroxy and methoxy amphetamines, could that that include 4-HMA (correct me if I am wrong), a drug used in the form of eyedrops to produce mydriasis?
Or would it be more like 3-methoxy, 4-Hydroxy-Methamphetamine that is formed?
Would the quantities produced be active enough to change the nature of the effects?
Would GC-MS detect these impurities?


----------



## heatlessbbq

Are You all chemistry majors?


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Correlating certain colours with specific impurities, or certain synthesis routes with a specific profile of effects is meaningless. Same with drawing a line between certain eras and supposed synthesis routes.

There are way too many variables.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> I have a small amount of mdma/mda mix left over still but the comedowns are much to harsh though i should follow the 3 month rule but i never have and don't see myself anytime soon til i completely quit using mdma


Interesting to hear you say this. I was curious, and what you say does actually closely match the impression I have picked up and formed in my subconscious regarding your usage regularity and general attitude towards it.

I did suspect that you used MDMA fairly frequently without putting too much pressure on yourself to abide strictly by the rules and without beating yourself up too much about it either.

Very "accepting" crucially, and there is great mental and emotional strength to come from this resolute, kind of positive, non-fretting, non-ruminating outlook.

Just taking things as they come without building anything negative or fearful in the imagination.
I make these comments with regard to people's hugely different experiences with MDMA use consequences and general effects specifically LTC.

I have been particularly interested in the people out there, like yourself, who have been fairly long-term users of MDMA and who continue to do so more regularly than most would advise, but in a seemingly comfortable and balanced manner.

As in, not reporting or considering oneself to be suffering terrible side effects and messed up. And appearing to be living life and coping relatively well mentally and personality wise.  I have come across quite a few cases of people who fit this bill and certainly a good number of them appear to have remained fairly happy and stable into almost Middle Ages while continuing to use MDMA much more regularly than common advice guidelines would dictate.

There is a phenomenon involved here regarding how some people do seem to be able to use this drug against the rules without or with only a fraction of the negative consequences compared to others.

I do suspect there is a strong spiritual aspect to this.


----------



## epic11

psy997 said:


> Niiiiice.
> 
> 
> 
> Methylone is so much better than MehDMA. The comparisons aren't really accurate IMO.



^this is 100% incorrect and complete bs. Even mehdma is better than methylone.




Hilopsilo said:


> Whaaaaaaat, c'mon, I agree that methylone isn't a good comparison, but do you really feel that MehDMA is worse than Methylone? To me there is hardly any comparison at all and you'd know the second you took methylone that what you had is not MDMA even if you're a complete noob to such drugs. MehDMA is similar enough that, well, if it was such an obvious difference to everyone there'd be a lot more noise around this. The similarities between the crappy MDMA and the magic stuff are quite close, but the point is
> 
> On a couple of occasions I've had the displeasure of being sold and thereafter consumed "molly" that was some random cathinone, like methylone. It's obvious right away that its not MDMA, cause it isn't.
> 
> This is some stoned ass analogy but; say you've purchased a car (MDMA) online and its being delivered to your home, or what you think is supposed to be a specific car that you've been told it is. The magic mdma would be receiving the car, the engine runs fine, everything about it handles just right, full tank of gas, mint-condition, everything you imagined it to be; exact model you purchased. Really no questions asked.
> 
> The MehDMA would be getting the car, everything _looks_ fine, its definitely what you ordered and the experts tell you it is, but driving it now something seems off. It's not a bad car, but you're not sure if its a problem with the engine or maybe the breaks, and you swear that the paint job is poorly done, you probably wouldn't buy this car again considering your initial expectations. You think its quite possible that they sold you a different/slightly cheaper model or maybe its a defect.
> 
> And then, Methylone would be like receiving that car and realizing its actually 5$ cardboard cutout of the model you purchased, you're angry and are about to get on the phone with the car dealership...
> 
> I think the whole point of this discussion was that the MehDMA is similar enough to MDMA that you're sort of scratching your chin a bit, its uncannily similar but most definitely something is off about it. If someone had given me methylone, and after not having the experience I expected, told me that it must just be that I've lost the magic, I'd laugh. But with MehDMA, its a plausible theory on paper IMO, MehDMA sure feels like what I imagine losing the magic feels like (a lot of the same effects without the magical aspect of it), and that would be what I'd still believe today if it wasn't for the batch dependent effects I'm seeing. (unless we as humans are so complex that we go in and out of being able to experience the magic of MDMA based on XYZ factors that we haven't even considered).



@Hilopsilo explains methylone perfectly here. No comparison to mehdma, even though mehdma sucks too.


----------



## psy997

Hey guys, after reading your replies I thought back to my days with Methylone and realized the time I was thinking about I'd actually mixed it with MDMA. You guys actually think it's that much worse than MehDMA? My experiences with it, given with good MDMA, had me believe it was a very beautiful substance.


----------



## G_Chem

Methylone, like MDMA, can vary batch to batch.  My first time I tried it I bought a g online which came as a brown powder.  It’s effects were nothing like MDMA and horribly disappointing.

Second time was with a g my buddy gave me..  This time I actually enjoyed it a lot more.  It felt to me like MDMA lite, overall not the same intensity but not bad either.

The second batch felt like it was the perfect substitute for those times you want to roll for some low key event but don’t want to blast yourself.  Great for Thurs club night type situations where it’s too low key to waste MDMA and you want to actually be able to get up and go to work in the morning.  Not as high but not as low, no impulsive redosing like described online, I wouldn’t mind having a few more grams if ever the chance.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

heatlessbbq said:


> Are You all chemistry majors?



No, I wish



Kaden_Nite said:


> Correlating certain colours with specific impurities, or certain synthesis routes with a specific profile of effects is meaningless. Same with drawing a line between certain eras and supposed synthesis routes.
> 
> There are way too many variables.



Certainly, its just that on the entire internet there is so little information at all on this subject, so anything is interesting to me really. And in a way I think that reflects how little we know about these substances. You've gotta fucking dig if you wanna find any information. Theres not even that many studies since MDMA is so illegal. We don't even fully know how MDMA works on the brains, how could we possibly 100% say for sure that MDMA = MDMA mg for mg, no matter what, so long as the % purity is the same. I don't think its terribly far-fetched to entertain the idea that its possible that impurities leftover from synthesis or whatever could have an impact on the high, and people who do have background in chemistry that I've talked to about this don't seem to think its too farfetched either. Might be a bad comparison, but look at all this stuff coming out about terpenes in weed and the entourage effect, what if there is something like that for MDMA?


A User Friendly Purification guide - turn brown oily MDMA into beautiful white crystals! from
      MDMA
 the writer of this guy guide seems to think that removing even small impurities improve the effects qualitatively. Again, with my samples, the 6% difference in purity is certainly not enough to cause the differences in subjective effects, especially when increasing the dose doesn't fix the problem. I feel its very possible there is some traces of crap, the "noise" on a mass spectra, that messes with the action of MDMA. 




psy997 said:


> Hey guys, after reading your replies I thought back to my days with Methylone and realized the time I was thinking about I'd actually mixed it with MDMA. You guys actually think it's that much worse than MehDMA? My experiences with it, given with good MDMA, had me believe it was a very beautiful substance.



Eh, I think methylones got a pretty bad rep overall. it is all opinion, but from my very few experiences with methylone/butylone (are they similar? idk), usually in the case of a long time ago where I was sold methylone as MDMA, all I remember is how crap it was, like utter garbage. It's like this fakey MDMA comeup that just turns into this weird coked out/stim buzz. If you mix it with MDMA idk though lol


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Methylone from decent RC vendors, between 2007 until around 2011, I had good experiences with. As GC said, like an MDMA-lite. Good for weeknights and venues where MDMA might be a bit much.

Ethylone I was disappointed with because I found it nothing like the euphorically relaxing MDEA (which I really enjoyed).

Butylone was sold here as a branded product in headshops called 'Eden' which I originally thought was MBDB before finding out it was the ketone version. It was okay for what it was.

Pentylone I didn't try, but it was fairly common for it to be sold as 'molly' for a while - I think this may have contributed to methylone getting a bad rep.



Hilopsilo said:


> Certainly, its just that on the entire internet there is so little information at all on this subject, so anything is interesting to me really. And in a way I think that reflects how little we know about these substances. You've gotta fucking dig if you wanna find any information. Theres not even that many studies since MDMA is so illegal. We don't even fully know how MDMA works on the brains, how could we possibly 100% say for sure that MDMA = MDMA mg for mg, no matter what, so long as the % purity is the same. I don't think its terribly far-fetched to entertain the idea that its possible that impurities leftover from synthesis or whatever could have an impact on the high



Agreed. I just think it varies so much from batch to batch (variations in precursors, the purity of those precursors, the procedure itself, the clean-up, etc etc) that it's impossible to say method #1 leads to MDMA type A, method #2 leads to MDMA type B etc.

I remember some old Rhodium & Hive posts drawing lines between colours of meth and certain impurities and synth routes, but they were disproven as virtually any synth can produce brown or or tan or amber or rainbow gear.

There was some apparently very high purity MDMA seized in Australia recently that looked yellow. Not the nicest looking stuff actually.

I do believe in that 'entourage' effect as I find coca and poppies considerably different than pure cocaine or morphine, and cannabis different to concentrates.

With MDMA, I think reports varied a lot in the 90s, they varied a lot in the early 00s and they vary a lot now. Search high and low for a good batch if you have to, buy a shit load of it and you're set


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Hey @G_Chem  , I did some more kit testing with the last bits left over of my A/B extraction.  There was more crystal left than before so I guess it hadn't fully evaporated.  I don't know if that contributed to my negative experience - e.g. the dose was low due to water still being there?

Anyway:

Mandelin - very small - turquoise
 - small - black with turquoise edge
 - medium - black with purple edge,  Long term:  black/sightly reddy brown

Marquis (needed much bigger quantities than traditionally with mehdma)
 - small/medium - purple/grey to purple/black,  Long term: black with a yellowy/brown edge
 - medium - purple to grey,  Long term: black with a yellowy/brown edge
 - large - purple/black to black, Long term: black with a yellowy/brown edge

Mecke - small and medium - black with grey/blue edge
 - very small - black but a bit more blue
 - long term noticed red fringing but tested Mecke without anything and it did the same


----------



## G_Chem

@Kaden_Nite - You make very excellent points that I’d like to address.

In regards to the era’s, those are very loosely based on averages from synthesis route analysis studies, along with other information.  They aren’t 100%, and should just be taken as the averages they are.

For instance, I often speak of Leuckart being a 90’s route but there is evidence of it being used up into the mid 2000’s.  It just was no longer the most common route, but sure some people (indigo maybe) could and were still getting that type of MDMA even after a specific era.

Next you are also right that “such and such synthesis = certain batch of MDMA” ideology can be problematic too.  There’s many steps along the way to get MDMA, and each step can change things up.

For instance, the hexamine to methylamine thing talked about before.  If homemade can have ammonium chloride in it, if not purified.  This homemade methylamine can be used in MANY synthesis routes as it needed often to attach the methyl portion of the molecule, so not only does the route effect things but minor changes in the precursors used can have effects on the end product too.

In the end we have to view this stuff as generalizations and remember to keep it all with a big grain of salt.  We’re gonna be wrong a few times til we get it right.  I myself have gone back n forth so much it hurts.  What I do know without a shadow of a doubt; batch variation exists, why? Well that’s the answer I’ve been working on for years.

@ThreePointCircle - Interesting that you saw turquoise on the Mandelin but not Mecke? Usually I’ll see turquoise or green on the start for that reagent too, but as we know reagents can very slightly batch to batch.  I’ll look at my notes again to see if any Mecke didn’t show green at the start.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> @ThreePointCircle - Interesting that you saw turquoise on the Mandelin but not Mecke? Usually I’ll see turquoise or green on the start for that reagent too, but as we know reagents can very slightly batch to batch.  I’ll look at my notes again to see if any Mecke didn’t show green at the start.



Possibly my reagents are past their best.  Have ordered some new ones and will re-test.


----------



## Aeon Psyche

I assume you either lost the magic or get pills with low quanity or possibly some other analog of mdma so it just doesn't feel the same. I can still get pure crystal mdma and even though i lost the magic long ago i still can tell when it is strong mdma or not.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

I think some people lose the magic but im a long term roller who rolled weekly sometimes two days a week for 3 years then i started putting more breaks of two three weeks between rolls took a break for  some years due to pretty much completly dissocasting from reality from drug use then used heavily again when amazing pills were showing up. I have rolled more times in a year than most people will roll in their entire span of using mdma. I never lost the magic i find straight crystal to always be a bit 50/50 i only use high quality presses when i had them and would have a decent stash since it was cheaper and i would roll alot. Most "dutch presses" while mabye made in the netherlands are not true "dutch" so many international players set up shop in holland cause the law is wack if they get caught with 500 kg mdma they might spend up to 5 years in a dutch jail. The true dutch quality presses if you ain't getting from a proper dutchmen its probably fake or made by the eastern european mafias


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Just looking back at old discussions.  What are the pros and cons of using DCM instead of xylene for A/B extraction?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@G_Chem new test kit, new results:

Mecke - grass green to black
Marquis - straight to black, then purple black
Mandelin - Maybe a slight bit of turqoise but then quickly to black with some orangey red
Froehde - Slight flash of green maybe then black
Liebermann - Flash of green then brown/black

So it looks like my marquis had died in the old kit.  Mandelin result is a bit strange.  That orangey red blob was very noticeable and I tested it twice.  On the reference chart they supplied, the orange blob looks closest to Procaine, then maybe PMA/PMMA, alpha-PVP or modafinil.  I think procaine wouldn't produce a colour change in the other reagents so could that of been a contaminant?  And one that came through the A/B extraction process?


----------



## G_Chem

Interesting.. Thanks for the updates!  

That orangey red is unique, I’ve never seen that with the Mandelin before..  I’m starting to wonder if the Mandelin might be our ticket to having a reagent which can differentiate.

I cannot recall, as well as no notes, which have ever spotted any orange/red..  If it was procaine you’d likely be able to tell via some local numbing when placed on tongue similar to cocaine.

Hmmm this has got me curious.. This may be a good lead.

-GC


----------



## epic11

I just checked if my kit has mandelin and it does. Im also sure i have some mehdma. Whos trying to get another mandelin test done?


----------



## PlayHard

would love to know where the posts i contributed to this thread have gone? lots of test result pics and very nice picture's of the glass like and amber safrole product i was getting last year etc? tried searching the thread. had some really good back and forth posts with @G_Chem which have vanished it seems?


----------



## Kaden_Nite

PlayHard said:


> you are correct g chem - the mdma above and in this fresh photo im posting does indeed turn to jet black, no purple. and im guessing isnt made from safrole. going to check a video i recorded from testing the mdma i purchased at the frontend of june. pretty sure this tested purple? ill post the video over this weekend. signal isnt great at the moment, taken me long enough to upload this photo -





PlayHard said:


> ^ the second photo is the amber/yellow i speak of. and gave me a feeling of sheer bliss, i still have some of this and will no doubt revert back to it after i try the clearer sample handed to me. the smell of the two are very different from each other might i add? the clearer glass is quite a over powering smell



Page 55


----------



## PlayHard

PlayHard said:


> ^ this is product i got from a local source who bought it via DW between christmas - march / april up until around may time when it was no longer available and a close friend sourced this which has a weird off tint / yellow like glass, i was sceptical at first as not a fan of "cola". however this isnt cola, this is the cleaner product ive been speaking of. 90mg/100mg had me in a state of pure bliss. photo below :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (im sorry for this photo not been as clear as the other, this clearly show's these are'nt the same product. off tint yellow/tan like & clear white)
> 
> both very clean and different from each other in terms of high, and comedown.


ignore my last post - found them. the search function on here is terrible? man what id give to have some of that amber/golden like md on the second photo again :O


----------



## PlayHard

Kaden_Nite said:


> Page 55


thanks. i thought they had all been removed, lost all my photos awhile ago to. sadly that stash of goodies is all gone now :D


----------



## Hilopsilo

^Those pics, thats the stuff 100%


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@G_Chem does the same a/b extraction work for MDA?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Did some more mandelin tests:

A/B extracted MDMA (re-test): maybe slight green but then black.  Definite orange extra colour
MDA (mehDA): Straight to black, no orange, long term slightly brown black
MDMA 2 (meh): Maybe even shorter green phase then black.  No orange colour. Long term slightly brown black
MDMA 3 (meh): Straight to black.  No orange colour. Long term slightly brown black


----------



## Rectify

The title of this thread is currently the $1,000,000 question.


----------



## sassyfrass

all the mehdema ive mandelin teseted had small tinges of green at first then black


----------



## PlayHard

Hilopsilo said:


> Not sure tbh, I've only had proper MDA a handful of times. 2 of the times i think I was just sold regular MDMA or a mixture of the two, since the effects just seemed like regular MDMA.
> 
> 2 times I've had 100% confirmed MDA , the first time was from a vendor in 2015 and it was utterly fantastic, nothing "wrong" with it. *I remember thinking I would never take normal MDMA again since it was so much fun, but it left me with this stimmed out feeling that kept me from sleeping for ages, that tossing and turning trying to sleep and it just doesn't happen.* The second time, I took it with LSD and it got almost too trippy, decided I prefer pairing MDMA with LSD. Again, MDA left em with this sort of hangover, nothing emotional, just sort of cracked-out-can't-sleep feeling.
> 
> It's harder to tell with MDA since the psychedelic aspect is sort of magical in and of itself, yknow?


experienced this myself a fair few times with mda.


Hilopsilo said:


> ^Those pics, thats the stuff 100%


they were both magical, but the amber/off tint not so glass type looking stuff in the second photo is where the real magic was at. empathy, euphoricness - comedown so mellow and more of a sudden drop off compared to a slight rough bumpy comedown. i will post some recent finding's in the next few days/weeks when i finally get round to indulging in some messy get together's for friends birthdays and such  *note those are 2 diff samples of mdma from last year* theres more pics of different product i came across on page 56 etc.


----------



## PlayHard

sassyfrass said:


> all the mehdema ive mandelin teseted had small tinges of green at first then black


yes that weird green/blue tint then to jet black within a few second's. seen this alot last year, and the mdma itself wasnt quite what people remember. lacking is what we all said  love the "meh'dema" wording lol. as thats what it pretty much is.. mehhhh


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

PlayHard said:


> yes that weird green/blue tint then to jet black within a few second's. seen this alot last year, and the mdma itself wasnt quite what people remember. lacking is what we all said  love the "meh'dema" wording lol. as thats what it pretty much is.. mehhhh



Yeh, 'MehDMA' is a brilliant description isn't it? Don't get me wrong, I still have a fuckin great time off the Meh stuff, but it's just not the same as it was. The 'Meh' only provides a strong come up, then it just fizzles out and I'm sleeping like a baby after 3 or 4 hours. Yes, it's very nice but it doesn't quite get you 'there'. It's a bit like coming up on acid but not actually having a trip - which is nice, but you can't help feeling a little cheated...


----------



## PlayHard

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, 'MehDMA' is a brilliant description isn't it? Don't get me wrong, I still have a fuckin great time off the Meh stuff, but it's just not the same as it was. The 'Meh' only provides a strong come up, then it just fizzles out and I'm sleeping like a baby after 3 or 4 hours. Yes, it's very nice but it doesn't quite get you 'there'. It's a bit like coming up on acid but not actually having a trip - which is nice, but you can't help feeling a little cheated...


nice to see you still posting btw - amongst others who got this thread going and kept the information and such on point - funnily enough ive just had a similar conversation with someone i hadnt seen in awhile, she had some mdma on friday night which she described as dull and lacking lol (however this was cola/tan which hasnt been around for awhile from what i know of? also not to be mistakened for that wonderful bliss amber i posted above) - claims she has'nt had anything of good quality since around august/september when living on the doorstep and part of our . (her words for "circle"). Making me wonder if what im about to source and have a look at is going to be a waste of time.. i know pricing isnt allowed on here but i noticed a big price drop just as i stopped and had a long break last year - i was told by friends that this cheaper stuff was lacking aswell and they to havent seen anything magical for a few months at a time and just the odd small bit of bliss in between :/.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

PlayHard said:


> nice to see you still posting btw - amongst others who got this thread going and kept the information and such on point - funnily enough ive just had a similar conversation with someone i hadnt seen in awhile, she had some mdma on friday night which she described as dull and lacking lol (however this was cola/tan which hasnt been around for awhile from what i know of? also not to be mistakened for that wonderful bliss amber i posted above) - claims she has'nt had anything of good quality since around august/september when living on the doorstep and part of our . (her words for "circle"). Making me wonder if what im about to source and have a look at is going to be a waste of time.. i know pricing isnt allowed on here but i noticed a big price drop just as i stopped and had a long break last year - i was told by friends that this cheaper stuff was lacking aswell and they to havent seen anything magical for a few months at a time and just the odd small bit of bliss in between :/.



I think price is irrelevant tbh. Every now and then a batch crops up that makes you think "Yes, it still exists and it's not just me being a fucktard".


----------



## PlayHard

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I think price is irrelevant tbh. Every now and then a batch crops up that makes you think "Yes, it still exists and it's not just me being a fucktard".


another thing - that meh stuff, you seem to just be chasing the first dose you take.  Its like you say you feel you've been cheated as you know how much better the special product we come across every once in awhile is. in terms of actual comeup, high - and comedown etc.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Yeh, I get a strong urge to redose repeatedly with the Meh stuff - even though it pretty much does fuck all. With the good shit, I'm usually satisfied from the first dose, and actually have to force myself to take a booster just to keep the vibes going.

The 'Meh' stuff is a bit like...


----------



## PlayHard

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, I get a strong urge to redose repeatedly with the Meh stuff - even though it pretty much does fuck all. With the good shit, I'm usually satisfied from the first dose, and actually have to force myself to take a booster just to keep the vibes going.
> 
> The 'Meh' stuff is a bit like...


yeah same here, the good stuff is very more'ish due to how good it is though.


----------



## Rectify

PMMA > MDMA


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Rectify said:


> PMMA > MDMA



Pardon?


----------



## Rectify

This is my brain on pma:



Don't Panic!


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

This is your brain every day ...


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> ^Those pics, thats the stuff 100%



Wrong, i have mdma that looks exactly like that. Doesnt produce the love.  Its meh. 

edit: Not saying that your specific batch wasnt magic, but a clear colorless crystal like this is not an indication of the real mdma. As i have some that looks just like this, and doesnt produce love.


----------



## epic11

Rectify said:


> PMMA > MDMA



Bye felicia.


----------



## PlayHard

epic11 said:


> Wrong, i have mdma that looks exactly like that. Doesnt produce the love.  Its meh.
> 
> edit: Not saying that your specific batch wasnt magic, but a clear colorless crystal like this is not an indication of the real mdma. As i have some that looks just like this, and doesnt produce love.


your right - alot of whats around at the moment is very similar looking to the above but lacks the magic sadly.


----------



## Phobos

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, I get a strong urge to redose repeatedly with the Meh stuff - even though it pretty much does fuck all. With the good shit, I'm usually satisfied from the first dose, and actually have to force myself to take a booster just to keep the vibes going.
> 
> The 'Meh' stuff is a bit like...


Some of the MEh stuff led to a couple of 3 days consecutive use doing 300mg lines every 2 hours or so but managing to sleep and sober up before starting again.
Couple of times I showed up at work with no sleep on the tail end and brain zapping.
I could control myself more with daily snorted+smoked Mephedrone.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Phobos said:


> Some of the MEh stuff led to a couple of 3 days consecutive use doing 300mg lines every 2 hours or so but managing to sleep and sober up before starting again.
> Couple of times I showed up at work with no sleep on the tail end and brain zapping.
> I could control myself more with daily snorted+smoked Mephedrone.



Oh man, you're a fuckin animal...


----------



## Hilopsilo

epic11 said:


> Wrong, i have mdma that looks exactly like that. Doesnt produce the love.  Its meh.
> 
> edit: Not saying that your specific batch wasnt magic, but a clear colorless crystal like this is not an indication of the real mdma. As i have some that looks just like this, and doesnt produce love.



When was the last time you had stuff that really did it for ya? How long ago, how many rolls ago, and what did it look like?


----------



## heatlessbbq

Where IS the MDMA Today?


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> When was the last time you had stuff that really did it for ya? How long ago, how many rolls ago, and what did it look like?



I believe late 2016 early 2017. A creamish looking mdma if i recall. Tan/cream almost. Less tan than a lot you see, but this is all being pulled from memory. This is the best of my recollection. Guy with this product got popped though.  I took 125 of it and fucking FLEW, partner as well.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

epic11 said:


> I believe 2016/2017. A creamish looking mdma if i recall. Tan/cream almost. Less tan than a lot you see, but this is all being pulled from memory. This is the best of my recollection. Guy with this product got popped though.  I took 125 of it and fucking FLEW.



Yeh, in my experience, orangey or pinky stuff seems to be the tits. That cola stuff is bollocks.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, in my experience, orangey or pinky stuff seems to be the tits. That cola stuff is bollocks.



Um now that you mention it, this was labeled "Cola" It was beautiful, smelly, wonderful.


----------



## Rectify

MDMA Is Dead.
Long Live MDMA!


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, in my experience, orangey or pinky stuff seems to be the tits. That cola stuff is bollocks.



Did a look around recently at all the types out there and available at the moment. Ran across a few labeled as "champagne pink" never heard the term before but the stuff looked nice. You think this is the best out in the current state?


----------



## phenethylo J

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, in my experience, orangey or pinky stuff seems to be the tits. That cola stuff is bollocks.





epic11 said:


> Did a look around recently at all the types out there and available at the moment. Ran across a few labeled as "champagne pink" never heard the term before but the stuff looked nice. You think this is the best out in the current state?



Got a small batch of some orangey pinkish mda back 12-13 that I got 5 separate experiences from; that stuff was amazing. 90-100mgs plugged had me completely gone. My experience were pretty smooth overall. I did vomit that time and some others with that batch but it wasn't that bad just one of those things were I'd get a big knot in my stomach, release, and then feel perfectly fine.


----------



## AutoTripper

phenethylo J said:


> Got a small batch of some orangey pinkish mda back 12-13 that I got 5 separate experiences from; that stuff was amazing. 90-100mgs plugged had me completely gone. My experience were pretty smooth overall. I did vomit that time and some others with that batch but it wasn't that bad just one of those things were I'd get a big knot in my stomach, release, and then feel perfectly fine.


Interesting that you still vomited from plugging. I would have assumed that the need to vomit may be greatly reduced by anal administration, but while I actually think about it right now I guess it makes sense to me how this would still be the case.


----------



## Phobos

AutoTripper said:


> Interesting that you still vomited from plugging. I would have assumed that the need to vomit may be greatly reduced by anal administration, but while I actually think about it right now I guess it makes sense to me how this would still be the case.



Nausea is triggered by 5HT3 serotonin receptors in your stomach, so if you snort or plug the concentration at those receptors is going to be much less than having the dose absorbed directly close to them.
But if the dose is strong enough even the plasma concentration is going to trigger nausea.


----------



## Glubrahnum

I am relaying a 3rd party trip report from a gf of a friend:

A 38 y.o., female, 85kg, virgin MDMA user with no history of antidepressant nor stimulant nor psychotropic nor psychoactive substance use, reports a 1 hr come up and 3h duration of couch-sitting non-empathic expeience after ingestion of 150mg of tan MDMA crystals tested with a fresh Marquis reagent (straight to black) , subsequently dissolved in a glass of freshly squeezed orange juce after fasting for 6h. Her partner reports minimal mydriasis and no noticeable trismus and also no appreciable increase in music appreciation or change in the conversation flow.

The origin of the MDMA crystals is Utrecht, NL.
I did not perform a more complex analysis of this substance since they did not have anything left over by the time the news got to me.

I am relaying this unremarkable "trip report" because it concerns a virgin user - which is rare.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> 2.) *"The problem is something leftover in the MDMA" *Depending on the production method chosen and skill of the chemist, leftover precursor or "organic impurities" are present in the final product and have an orders-of-magnitude impact on the subjective effects dose-for-dose. There is some literature on leftover precursor and organic impurities, but zero literature on the effects these might have when ingested.
> 
> It is not uncommon for MDP2P and other precursors (see Ecstasy Data) to be found in MDMA samples, it is possible that these interfere with the action of MDMA directly, but at the same time there is no evidence to say so. I do not believe it is possible that leftover precursor/organic impurities are the cause of differing effects purely due to diluting MDMA in a sample as they occur in such small amounts (usually, and in my own case).



Would any of you be savvy enough to buy some analytic TLC Plates and solvents to perform Thin Layer Chromatography at home.on your substances ?

You can use Google to find a vendor of cheap "TLC plates" in your country. They are easy to buy and the procedure can be done at home in a glass with a dropper, some solvent and a UV light source (e.g. disco black-light or this). e.g. see this video or this video.

It would be ideal if you could test the MehMDMA and magic-MDMA side-by-side and post a photo of the spots on the TLC plate,


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Would any of you be savvy enough to buy some analytic TLC Plates and solvents to perform Thin Layer Chromatography at home.on your substances ?



I would be up for it.  I haven't come across any magic stuff in the last few years though so can't do the comparison


----------



## indigoaura

> A 38 y.o., female, 85kg, virgin MDMA user with no history of antidepressant nor stimulant nor psychotropic nor psychoactive substance use, reports a 1 hr come up and 3h duration of couch-sitting non-empathic expeience after ingestion of 150mg of tan MDMA crystals tested with a fresh Marquis reagent (straight to black) , subsequently dissolved in a glass of freshly squeezed orange juce after fasting for 6h. Her partner reports minimal mydriasis and no noticeable trismus and also no appreciable increase in music appreciation or change in the conversation flow.



That sounds right, and I don't doubt it at all. I don't doubt that we could take dozens of virgin drug users an give them 150 mg of MehDMA and they would all have the same result.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

I think even pharmaceutical-grade MDMA won't be for everyone. A lot of people have tried it once and never again. There's no guarantee that taking some drug equals good times or a profound or enjoyable experience.

If someone is 38 with no history of psychoactive drug use, I'd say that it's probably just not their thing.


----------



## indigoaura

> I think even pharmaceutical-grade MDMA won't be for everyone. A lot of people have tried it once and never again. There's no guarantee that taking some drug equals good times or a profound or enjoyable experience.
> 
> If someone is 38 with no history of psychoactive drug use, I'd say that it's probably just not their thing.



No offense, Kaden, but that is not very scientific. 

I don't doubt that there are people out there who would not enjoy/fully experience MDMA, due to genetic variations, underlying conditions, etc. But to say that a 38 year old would be incapable of experiencing the effects of 150 mg of MDMA just because "it's not their thing" is illogical. 

I've brought vodka up before because I think it is something most people understand. If someone who had never been drunk drank 8 shots of vodka, they would get drunk. They might or might not like the experience, it might or might not be their thing, but they WOULD get drunk. 

Someone who has never rolled before SHOULD experience peak effects off a 150 mg dose unless there is an underlying issue. To try to argue against that is to disregard published scientific data on the topic as well as decades of anecdotal accounts. This 38 year old woman should have rolled, and it should have been observable by the people around her. Whether she found it to be "her thing" or not is a totally separate issue.


----------



## Phobos

indigoaura said:


> No offense, Kaden, but that is not very scientific.
> 
> I don't doubt that there are people out there who would not enjoy/fully experience MDMA, due to genetic variations, underlying conditions, etc. But to say that a 38 year old would be incapable of experiencing the effects of 150 mg of MDMA just because "it's not their thing" is illogical.
> 
> I've brought vodka up before because I think it is something most people understand. If someone who had never been drunk drank 8 shots of vodka, they would get drunk. They might or might not like the experience, it might or might not be their thing, but they WOULD get drunk.
> 
> Someone who has never rolled before SHOULD experience peak effects off a 150 mg dose unless there is an underlying issue. To try to argue against that is to disregard published scientific data on the topic as well as decades of anecdotal accounts. This 38 year old woman should have rolled, and it should have been observable by the people around her. Whether she found it to be "her thing" or not is a totally separate issue.


It could also be argued that due to the effects profile of MDMA, I guess you can only get so far as not liking that you like it.
I mean that after the experience a person might say that it was too pleasurable, that it makes you say things you should not say, think things that you should not think (AAAH THE HORROR), feel too much confidence in others, that you talk silly and make terrible faces. Whatever. But it would be very hard for MDMA to be causing negative/feelings.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

When I started doing E, my best mate and partner in crime never seemed to 'get' the experience. We've taken the same pills many a time and whereas I'd be bouncing off the walls grinning like a loon, he'd be flat on his back on the sofa monging out. However, he still used to get massively dilated pupils and chew his face off.


@Phobos   in answer to the question on your Sig - 'the brain, heart or dick, it depends upon the copper....'


----------



## Phobos

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> When I started doing E, my best mate and partner in crime never seemed to 'get' the experience. We've taken the same pills many a time and whereas I'd be bouncing off the walls grinning like a loon, he'd be flat on his back on the sofa monging out. However, he still used to get massively dilated pupils and chew his face off.
> 
> 
> @Phobos   in answer to the question on your Sig - 'the brain, heart or dick, it depends upon the copper....'


Aw come on in the UK most cops are pure gold compared to Italy, you're spoiled.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Phobos said:


> Aw come on in the UK most cops are pure gold compared to Italy, you're spoiled.



Ah, seeing as you're in Italy, then my answer is 'the brain, the heart and the dick'. Oh, and 'the soul'...


----------



## Phobos

BTW did your friend have a generally high tolerance for all drugs? Or was it just MDMA that wouldn't be stimulating for him.




F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Ah, seeing as you're in Italy, then my answer is 'the brain, the heart and the dick'. Oh, and 'the soul'...


I've invaded your country years ago.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Phobos said:


> BTW did your friend have a generally high tolerance for all drugs? Or was it just MDMA that wouldn't be stimulating for him.



No, he was a fuckin lightweight tbh  .  The come up seemed to hit him very hard, but he'd still get there in the end. I guess my point is that while people can react to drugs very differently, good drugs are undeniable... 




Phobos said:


> I've invaded your country years ago.



Happy to have you mate  (y)


----------



## Phobos

Yep, true that, in particular MDMA produces a smaller variation in effects between people compared to many other drugs.
Speed can make some talk forever while they pace and others will sit down all calm and silent.
Psychedelics can produce very evident problems at surprisingly low doses for some people.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

> If someone is 38 with no history of psychoactive drug use, I'd say that it's probably just not their thing.


You interpret this as:


> a 38 year old would be incapable of experiencing the effects of 150 mg of MDMA


Not sure how you got that from what I said, but that's okay because you kind of demonstrate my point:


> Someone who has never rolled before *SHOULD* experience peak effects off a 150 mg dose.
> 
> This 38 year old woman *should* have rolled, and it *should* have been observable by the people around her.


People have expectations of how they believe drugs 'should' affect them. It clearly doesn't always work out like that.



> To try to argue against that is to disregard published scientific data on the topic as well as decades of anecdotal accounts



So I don't understand why you are arguing with it? The anecdotal report that was just offered, you are contesting the legitimacy of, just like all the lab tests and the experience reports outside of this thread which don't fit in with your 'something is wrong with the MDMA' belief.

If you believe that something 'should' have happened in Glubra's anecdotal report, talk to him.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Phobos said:


> MDMA produces a smaller variation in effects between people compared to many other drugs.



I would agree with this, but I think there is still a lot of room for variation. My eyes tend to light up like fireworks on MDMA while I chew gum like I'm sponsored by Wrigley's™.

Some of my friends will have twice as much of the same stuff and sit calmly at their computer messaging people all night.

Sometimes they really like a batch that I thought was a bit mediocre, other times it's the other way around. Then, sometimes there's a batch that everyone seems to rave about and remember forever.


----------



## phenethylo J

AutoTripper said:


> Interesting that you still vomited from plugging. I would have assumed that the need to vomit may be greatly reduced by anal administration, but while I actually think about it right now I guess it makes sense to me how this would still be the case.






Phobos said:


> Nausea is triggered by 5HT3 serotonin receptors in your stomach, so if you snort or plug the concentration at those receptors is going to be much less than having the dose absorbed directly close to them.
> But if the dose is strong enough even the plasma concentration is going to trigger nausea.




I think I was mixing lots of ket with it which probably contributed to that. Also threw up from that batch when eating a higher dose and plugging it with 2cb. I notice plugged mda hits real fucking fast allot quicker than varies 2cs I've plugged. I fully peaking within 10-15 mins. Probably that jolt of it all hitting me at once is what did it in but also threw up from eating the stuff. Really miss that stuff wish I could of got some mdma at the time to try and combining them to see how the experience compared to rolls I've previously had with pressed pills years before.


----------



## Phobos

phenethylo J said:


> I think I was mixing lots of ket with it which probably contributed to that. Also threw up from that batch when eating a higher dose and plugging it with 2cb. I notice plugged mda hits real fucking fast allot quicker than varies 2cs I've plugged. I fully peaking within 10-15 mins. Probably that jolt of it all hitting me at once is what did it in but also threw up from eating the stuff. Really miss that stuff wish I could of got some mdma at the time to try and combining them to see how the experience compared to rolls I've previously had with pressed pills years before.




Mh, really curious to hear if someone can report about a combo of MDA+ MDMA in known amounts.


----------



## indigoaura

@Kaden_Nite , you are not understanding my post.

I 100% agree with the anecdotal report. It is totally believable to me and lines up with the last 116 pages of discussion. I am not discounting the legitimacy of it at all. It is yet another anecdote to add to the pile. The woman did not take "magic" MDMA. If she had, her experience would have been different.

You then had an alternative take on the anecdote, and came along and said that drugs must not be her thing. It seemed to be an explanation for why she did not roll, especially since it immediately followed your statement:


> I think even pharmaceutical-grade MDMA won't be for everyone.



Again, these phrases like "won't be for everyone" and "it's probably just not their thing" are not explanations for why this virgin user did not roll. They are not scientific explanations. Drugs have known effects profiles.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

indigoaura said:


> that is not very scientific.





> They are not scientific explanations.


Oh okay. So what is the scientific explanation?


> The woman did not take "magic" MDMA


----------



## indigoaura

Ok, cool, laugh.

"What is the scientific explanation?" is literally the driving question of this entire thread. If we knew, we would not be trying to figure it out. 

Brief backstory...
I once had a friend who turned blue and had a grande mal seizure while rolling. She took the same pills as everyone else. Nobody else had an issue. She had rolled many times before and never had an issue. The general consensus amongst people at the party was, "Well, must have just been her body chemistry on that particular day."

That did not make sense to me. It did not fit within the parameters of what was known about MDMA/MDA or what was known about her. It did not make sense that she would all of a sudden have a seizure due to some random state of her body. So, I started researching and asking a lot of questions, and it turned out she had a knee injury and had taken an anti-inflammatory med called celebrex. Celebrex was one of the CYP2D6 inhibitors, and it was not supposed to be taken with any other meds processed with CYP2D6.

There was a scientific reason why she had the seizure that day. It was not randomness. 

Just because we have not figured out the precise reason why so many people are having the same subpar reports from MDMA use, does not mean there is no scientific explanation.


----------



## MomaDance

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  Of course the eye wiggles and chattiness etc.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!



Study and learn how to use the Dark Web. There are a few legit sites that have plenty of 100% pure X.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Kaden_Nite said:


> I would agree with this, but I think there is still a lot of room for variation. My eyes tend to light up like fireworks on MDMA while I chew gum like I'm sponsored by Wrigley's™.
> 
> Some of my friends will have twice as much of the same stuff and sit calmly at their computer messaging people all night.
> 
> *Sometimes they really like a batch that I thought was a bit mediocre, other times it's the other way around. Then, sometimes there's a batch that everyone seems to rave about and remember f*orever.



This is the mindfuck with MDMA, it does warp your perception in a profound way not entirely unlike classic psychdelics. All the times I've had with very good MDMA so happens to coincide with external factors in that experience being very good/fortunate, and experiences with not so great MDMA the external factors were in retrospect unfavorable to some extent. It's not terribly farfetched to hypothesize that unfavorable conditions might hamper our brain from utilizing MDMA properly in a bigger way then we ever considered (I wouldn't underestimate the complexity of how MDMA affects our brain just judging by how powerful of experiences it is capable of creating). Its like the times with the really good MDMA all the factors aligned. Coincidence? Was it the fantastic MDMA that tinted my memory to be nothing less than perfect? Or was it that very perfect set and setting that potentiates MDMA to that fever pitch? maybe MDMA needs a little love to work with, some kindling to get the fire going... it's possible. Taking MDMA with my partner is a far more powerful experience than how I experienced MDMA before meeting this person (although we do both notice difference in batches). It gives me someone i can completely express myself to on MDMA, nothing has to be internalized

I'm still convinced that not all MDMA is created equal, but I do second guess myself with these types of thoughts.


----------



## Phobos

MomaDance said:


> Study and learn how to use the Dark Web. There are a few legit sites that have plenty of 100% pure X.



You have posted a response that makes it clear that you either have not bothered read Le Junk's post, or failed to understand its content.
If you do read it, you will see that he can call a friend and buy MDMA if he needs it, and that it is very good, and that he discovered by accident there was some shit MDMA around that does not even feel like it is the same drug.
And he started this thread to discuss how all this is possible.
Do you really think that after 117 pages and 2321 posts nobody had brought up the existence of darknet markets and if they actually sell proper MDMA.


----------



## AutoTripper

Hilopsilo said:


> Its like the times with the really good MDMA all the factors aligned. Coincidence


I know exactly where you are coming from here, but I really believe that this may be an illusion. I would suggest that everything aligned, because- that IS the magic of true MDMA.

Reality is to be created after all, not just perceived. It is being perceived and created simultaneously at every moment. 

I would even suggest the creating is the main part because that is taking place automatically and infinitely, our perception relies on our consciousness and mental faculties.

So with magic MDMA, the world we view, live in, create...is just in total harmonic order. We dont perceive problems, therefore we don't create them.

We see solutions, past problems which in that magical blissful state, we cannot even see or recall.

Hence they can simply drop off the face of existence. With ropes and ties permanently severed. But no need or conditioning to revisit or recur.

I believe it is this aspect and mechanism of the MDMA experience which can be so healing, releasing and transforming.  It just sets the stage for an automatic "wiping" of a load of pointless, stuck, negative shit that doesn't need to be there.

So  the way you describe your experiences @Hilopsilo makes me feel that no, no coincidence, but the illusion of a coincidence owing to the way MDMA just creates a magical world which is basically real, in that we experience it and gain astonishing benefit and insight and healing.

And the MEHDMA just doesn't have what is required to automatically put us onto that world, consciousness, wavelegth, reality.

So that you have to work very hard, consciously, before hand, during and then even afterwards with thinking back in a tense, somewhat unsettled and perplexed, almost disjointed fashion, trying to piece things together again to make sense of the experience on the whole and what was good or right about it, and what was not.

None of this should be necessary of apparent with magic MDMA, IMO.  

That is my theory on this potentially illusory phenomenon of the starrs aligning on magic MDMA and not MEHDMA.


----------



## Phobos

Yep, I am with AutoTripper here, when I ingest proper MDMA every single thing is perfectly timed in a perfect context created for that thing to happen just in that way.
Which is literally how things go in reality, but we just don't perceive it in that way.
In instance, every single drop of rain condensates from a cloud just to be carried by the wind and the force of gravity towards the ground, and in the moment of the impact the purpose of the ground it falls on was exactly to be there for that drop to fall, and so on.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Phobos said:


> Yep, I am with AutoTripper here, when I ingest proper MDMA every single thing is perfectly timed in a perfect context created for that thing to happen just in that way.
> Which is literally how things go in reality, but we just don't perceive it in that way.
> In instance, every single drop of rain condensates from a cloud just to be carried by the wind and the force of gravity towards the ground, and in the moment of the impact the purpose of the ground it falls on was exactly to be there for that drop to fall, and so on.



I think you're on fuckin drugs pal...


----------



## Phobos

I plead the fifth.


----------



## indigoaura

While I appreciate the spiritual musings, I don't know that I buy it (that mind/mood controls the MDMA experience).

One of the most memorable MDMA experiences I had involved one of the worst nights of my life. I was 20 years old, and married to my first husband. A few days prior, he had run off to go try to fuck an ex-girlfriend. I was absolutely miserable and in a shit mood. We had been invited to a party, and we were not going to go because of all the personal drama and bullshit. But, friends were calling and asking us to come, so we decided we would "make an appearance" and then leave.

Took a pill after I got there. These pills were not even rumored to be that good. Just average, mid-strength pills. Ended up rolling all night. Had a badass time. Ended up naked in bed with a girl. Fantastic vibes and a very memorable, empathetic, touchy-feely, music sounds ahmazing experience.

It was not because I was in a good headspace. I was in a terrible headspace. I was depressed. I had been crying for two weeks. I'm sure I walked in with resting bitch face. Based on my mood and what was going on in my life, it should have been a terrible time, but it wasn't. The point that the tide turned was the moment that the pill hit. The pill brought the positive vibe to the evening, because there was sure as hell no positive vibe before that.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> While I appreciate the spiritual musings, I don't know that I buy it (that mind/mood controls the MDMA experience).
> 
> One of the most memorable MDMA experiences I had involved one of the worst nights of my life. I was 20 years old, and married to my first husband. A few days prior, he had run off to go try to fuck an ex-girlfriend. I was absolutely miserable and in a shit mood. We had been invited to a party, and we were not going to go because of all the personal drama and bullshit. But, friends were calling and asking us to come, so we decided we would "make an appearance" and then leave.
> 
> Took a pill after I got there. These pills were not even rumored to be that good. Just average, mid-strength pills. Ended up rolling all night. Had a badass time. Ended up naked in bed with a girl. Fantastic vibes and a very memorable, empathetic, touchy-feely, music sounds ahmazing experience.
> 
> It was not because I was in a good headspace. I was in a terrible headspace. I was depressed. I had been crying for two weeks. I'm sure I walked in with resting bitch face. Based on my mood and what was going on in my life, it should have been a terrible time, but it wasn't. The point that the tide turned was the moment that the pill hit. The pill brought the positive vibe to the evening, because there was sure as hell no positive vibe before that.



Flip side indigo, it was super fun for you this time, cause when you got cheated on, you went into full "fun/fuck it" mindset. Which  = Good roll. (YMMV, im just poking a little fun. Sounds like a GREAT!!! night) HOT


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Oh my got, it definitely dose still exist


----------



## indigoaura

F.U.B.A.R for the win!!!


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

.

,


indigoaura said:


> F.U.B.A.R for the win!!!


Heheh, cheers! :D 

 The stuff I've git it's not tested or owt, but I trust my feller and he ain't been wrong yet. Here's a pic...


----------



## Phobos

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Oh my *got*, it definitely *dose *still exist


I knew it wasn't typos but a pun. 
Does it have a colour? Looks like the silverish grey stuff.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Phobos said:


> I knew it wasn't typos but a pun.
> Does it have a colour? Looks like the silverish grey stuff.



No puns intended mate. Just couldn't focus on the keypad....


----------



## Phobos

Mmmmh eye wiggles. Why is trying to look at your optical nerve so pleasurable?
Never figured that one out.


----------



## indigoaura

@F.U.B.A.R.  Make a full report when your eyes stop wiggling. I am curious what your dose was, how much dilation you noted etc.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> While I appreciate the spiritual musings, I don't know that I buy it (that mind/mood controls the MDMA experience).
> 
> One of the most memorable MDMA experiences I had involved one of the worst nights of my life. I was 20 years old, and married to my first husband. A few days prior, he had run off to go try to fuck an ex-girlfriend. I was absolutely miserable and in a shit mood. We had been invited to a party, and we were not going to go because of all the personal drama and bullshit. But, friends were calling and asking us to come, so we decided we would "make an appearance" and then leave.
> 
> Took a pill after I got there. These pills were not even rumored to be that good. Just average, mid-strength pills. Ended up rolling all night. Had a badass time. Ended up naked in bed with a girl. Fantastic vibes and a very memorable, empathetic, touchy-feely, music sounds ahmazing experience.
> 
> It was not because I was in a good headspace. I was in a terrible headspace. I was depressed. I had been crying for two weeks. I'm sure I walked in with resting bitch face. Based on my mood and what was going on in my life, it should have been a terrible time, but it wasn't. The point that the tide turned was the moment that the pill hit. The pill brought the positive vibe to the evening, because there was sure as hell no positive vibe before that.


Hey. That's a really great story and perfect example of how MDMA can work on the psyche mind and imagination to literally unlock potential to completely change how you look at something and feel about a certain situation in life.

It sounds from your description as though you effectively at the time completely resolved and cleared the emotional harm ma and conditioning, fear etc, and simply all negativity and obstacle, from your field of vision and mind.

It's like a fast-rack crash course program to say- Okay, here is where I am today. I see it. I feel it. I didn't like that...this is sort if...okay then so....and.....alright that is how it is then I'm completely ok with that and this is where I am heading next..."

sort of process. Except it is all real, it truly can work to help you instantly see past mountains without, accepting a new way of thinking and feeling an instant without ties or anchors to the past.

I'm real sorry @indigoaura if this is patronizing, Im speaking generally, of course it is silly to suggest that that whole situation was easy for you thereafter. I didn't mean it like that, but I do admire your strength to rise above it and keep your focus throughout.

But it does sound as though the MDMA instigated a dramatic shift and change of consciousness, and I get the feeling from the way you talk about and describe it, that this was a positive and releasing experience with lasting effects?

I do question now, in such an unideal setting and mind/emotion frame- ( from the general impression I have picked up from you all ) could MEHDMA have such a "piercing" positive effect on the situation and mindset of the individual in question?

I would suggest that the opposite would be more likely and that the situation would only be made worse possibly by the MEHDMA.


----------



## Phobos

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> No puns intended mate. Just couldn't focus on the keypad....


BS, maybe you didn't know that you were writing down a pun, but the MDMA apparently made your eyes wiggle just in the right way for you to do just that.


----------



## indigoaura

Not patronizing at all @AutoTripper.

I don't think MehDMA would have had that effect. I think I would have gotten even more caught up in negative thoughts, and brooded on a couch, and then left.

Did it result in a permanent shift in consciousness? I don't know. It allowed me to live in the moment for the night, and focus on the sensory satisfaction of the ever present now. The ex and I swept our problems under the rug for a few months, but I moved out within the year. 

There were other times back then where I would take a pill that just did not "do it" and then follow up with a pill from a trusted supply and roll just fine. All within the same night. Obviously, back then, the pill that did not "do it" could have just been weak/bunk, but maybe some of it was MehDMA even then. Who knows. But, being in a bad mood never seemed to prevent an amazing roll. The comedown may be worse later, but the roll itself was still good.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^I definitely think MehDMA has been around since pretty much the beginning of illicit MDMA manufacture.  It’s probably the start to some of heroin myths and Mongy mdma that existed even in the 90’s.

FUBAR obviously it can be hard to tell from a pic but I did get some shit looking very similar a month back that did me and my friends very well.  It was that shit that a girl I know had that really cathartic experience on.

Glad you had a good experience man 

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> @F.U.B.A.R.  Make a full report when your eyes stop wiggling. I am curious what your dose was, how much dilation you noted etc.



Dropped exactly 151mg in rizla at 7pm. Started to feel the first rushes 10 minutes later (I'd had nothing to eat and had been drinking vodka so this no doubt contributed to the rapid onset). I could already tell it wasn't meh. Come up continued to build for the next couple of hours, hard but smooth. I actually felt a little nauseous at one point which is unusual for me, but it wasn't unpleasant, more of a giddy excitement. The eye wiggles were intense and I couldn't properly focus on my eyes in the mirror to assess the pupil dilation, but it felt as though they were big. There was a huge speedy push throughout and although I was just bouncing off the walls at home with a big grin on my face, I felt socialising would have been very easy. Come down was very smooth and I finally fell asleep around 1am so the duration was about 5 hours, which beats the shit out of the meh stuff which lasts about 3 hours - if I'm lucky. I've been known to be crashed out after 1.5 hours with the Meh. Feel fine this morning, slight headache but that could be down to the booze.

Oh, I also totally forgot to take a booster, but I didn't need it because the initial dose was completely satisfying.

Overall verdict: MagicDMA...


----------



## Working_Class

PriestTheyCalledHim said:


> A lot of what's sold as MDMA/MDA these days or since the 90s/early 00s is anything but that, especially with pressed pills.
> 
> Did you test the pressed pills you bought? If you did not, it's no wonder why you get garbage pills and powders sold as MDMA/MDA.
> 
> A friend of mine took what he thought was MDA/MDMA but it turned out to be 2C-B which he was fine with.
> 
> Based on how you said that you felt the effects of the pills the next day it sounds as though you took some MDMA/MDA that had meth in it.
> 
> I've never taken MDMA or MDA as neither of them interested me, and I certainly would not get into taking either of them now.  People I know who took MDMA/MDA when they were legal in the 70s and 80s said they have no interest in taking it today.





I was just about to suggest that the pills may have had some pure MDMA in there, but there may be other adulterants in it. It's really interesting to hear about the possible precursor issue, just bringing us back to the GIGO philosophy. Garbage in garbage out for anyone who doesn't know the term. Even for pulling DMT out of select plants, the ingredients should be of the highest quality available if at all possible. Otherwise... GIGO


----------



## indigoaura

@F.U.B.A.R. The quick onset plus nausea on the come-up were both characteristics of the product I used to get. In fact, the quick onset (usually around 20 min) was such a notable characteristic, that if it was 45 minutes later and you still did not feel it, common knowledge was that it was bunk.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> @F.U.B.A.R. The quick onset plus nausea on the come-up were both characteristics of the product I used to get. In fact, the quick onset (usually around 20 min) was such a notable characteristic, that if it was 45 minutes later and you still did not feel it, common knowledge was that it was bunk.



Yeh, I normally feel it within about half an hour if I've got an empty stomach, but this was ridiculously quick. The weird thing is that as soon as I felt the first alerts, I knew it was the good shit. There was just something about it...


----------



## epic11

@F.U.B.A.R. Surprised of your experience vs. the pic. The pic looks just like any other mdma out there. Visually looks like mehdma to me. GLAD IT WASNT! Did it smell?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

epic11 said:


> @F.U.B.A.R. Surprised of your experience vs. the pic. The pic looks just like any other mdma out there. Visually looks like mehdma to me. GLAD IT WASNT! Did it smell?



I don't know about that mate, in my experience it's quite rare to get colourless crystal. I know that colour isnt really an indicator for quality, but i usually find that the darker it is, the more 'meh' it is. No, there was no discernable smell, but again, that indicates nothing. One of these days  I'm  going to invest in a bunch of test kits just to confuse myself even further...


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Obviously, back then, the pill that did not "do it" could have just been weak/bunk, but maybe some of it was MehDMA even then. Who know


Note- I typed this post out late last night in a hash, but hit my touchscreen and lost the post (?).
So I gave up and have posted elsewhere today day and was catching up here when I discovered this unfinished post from last night.
So what the heck here it is only because they have been some additional comments on on the having been around for quite some time.




"Yes I can relate to this, I did comment on this a way back, how I came across a lot of pretty useless pills amongsth the good.

And how we never really put any thought into what made them different and so rubbish in comparison. I always assumed that it was not related much to dose, and I still hold by that on reflection and in hindsight I'm pretty sure of it actually.

They just appeared to be a different drug and an absolutely shit one in comparison.

This also became much more common from about 2002 onwards. So many batches going round my university town which were just useless and didn't get any of the euphoria for Magical experience MDMA just a cheap thrills and barely that for a shity come down and total dissatisfaction.

And at the same time with luck we woyld be picking up some of the very best presses you could want, and experiencing the full magic of MDMA when a day before or afterwards we could completely fail to get anywhere close to that with the the inferior product.

So there was arguable some form of MEHDMA going around for quite a long time before the real problems and drought became apparent after 2005.  There was simply no magic in those pills, but always there with the good.

Once again I absolutely have to reject the loss of magic argument continually put forward here and everywhere, to account for the variation."

Okay, rounding off now from last night... 

We never knew anything of MEHDMA back then.  If I'm totally honest and I always am, we didn't know much about any of the drugs we took we just knew that somewhere absolutely amazing and some were not worth even taking.

Like many batches of ecstasy pills I came across I would not be interested in 1 million on my desert island retreat.

But give me 1000 each of those particular: Smileys, Limes, Snowballs, Elephants, Doves, Mitzis etc etc.
So many different batches of amazing top quality MDMA pills and at the same time so many I came across which I just would have no interest in consuming or taking with me to Utopia whatsoever.

In these cases quantity could simply never make up for quality absolutely no way.
And the magic was always there to be had with the legit pills but completely lacking with the inferior but we never really gave it any thought we just accepted something was either good or not and did our best to source the best product.

But there was plenty of the real MDMA around always up to a certain point so the distinction was clear and I guess nobody really asked too many questions.

So was that MEHDMA as it is known and experienced now? I think the only actual point I was inadvertently making was with regard to the Magic, alongside no magic at all, according to batch, regardless of tolerance, age, usage etc.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> @F.U.B.A.R. The quick onset plus nausea on the come-up were both characteristics of the product I used to get. In fact, the quick onset (usually around 20 min) was such a notable characteristic, that if it was 45 minutes later and you still did not feel it, common knowledge was that it was bunk.


I keep forgetting how potentially important this particular point is here- come up time.

It has been highlighted already but when since revisiting the scene recently I still have not got my head around this 45 minutes to 1 hour come up standard, at reasonably large doses as well because I was always used to 20 to 30 minutes pretty much or even less with a double drop like 10 to 15 and you would be coming up hard and fast rushing on ecstasy as they say  "love that phrase hehe".

Nowhere near an hour. And yes if the effects weren't kicking in very strongly within 30 minutes then it would be apparent that dosage was a very low or the pills were not very active.

Out of all of the other variables and factors suggested and discussed when I think of this one it seems very suggestive of a real difference.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Kaden_Nite said:


> There's no guarantee that taking some drug equals good times or a profound or enjoyable experience.
> If someone is 38 with no history of psychoactive drug use, I'd say that it's probably just not their thing.


One lackluster psychoactive effect could be explained that way, but not many of them, e.g.: *see here*.
The very specific phenotype variation needed to make one react to the 3,4-MDMA so atypically, is just too rare.

The improbability of your explanation increases even further when the physiological effects are distinguished from psychoactive effects, e.g. the lack of Mydriasis which is mediated by norepinephrine in contrast to the psychoactive effects mediated by serotonin.

Imagine the odds, that this woman (and the others) were immune to both of these agonistic properties of MDMA.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Quote from: https://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory


> Our lab switched [in 2010] to ethyl PMK-glycidate as a precursor. This was unwatched, and we were able to source it from China at a very competitive price,” he said.
> 
> He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn’t just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. “It achieves complex molecular changes in a single concerted step, almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration,”



Does anyone here know what is this *elegant* "*single concerted step*" reaction ? ...and I mean more than a mere "Darzen with hydrogenation on a platinum catalyst".


----------



## Kaden_Nite

@Glubrahnum

Pupil dilation, I have seen vary from almost unnoticeable to people having eyes like guinea pigs. Same with teeth grinding, reports of levels of enjoyment and intoxication etc - all the same people, taking the same amounts of the same batch. I've experienced this personally.

This same degree of variance has been observed in clinical settings using pharmaceutical grade MDMA.


What you reported, it really doesn't sound that unusual to me. Observing someone, who _may_ have had little interest in taking drugs, consume untested, impure street-grade MDMA before sitting on a couch for the night is not necessarily going to produce an experience that mirrors what has been painfully labelled by some as 'magic' mdma.

I understand that it was a simple observation on your part, but just for clarity, it is by no means a scientific approach to evaluating the quality of anything. 

MDMA, like every other psychoactive drug, regardless of purity is simply not as consistent as you seem to expect or believe it to be.


----------



## Happyhand

Very interesting discussion. I always thought that the old Brooklyn Bombers that I got in 1992 were such a better high than the new pills and mdma I’ve experienced in the recent years. The lack of safrole as an initial ingredient may explain the difference. Thank you for this info!  Very insightful!


----------



## Phobos

Kaden_Nite said:


> @Glubrahnum
> 
> Pupil dilation, I have seen vary from almost unnoticeable to people having eyes like guinea pigs. Same with teeth grinding, reports of levels of enjoyment and intoxication etc - all the same people, taking the same amounts of the same batch. I've experienced this personally.
> 
> This same degree of variance has been observed in clinical settings using pharmaceutical grade MDMA.
> .............................



I always noticed I have absolutely no grinding or chewing any movement of the jaw whatsoever on any drug, the jaw muscles do become tense and keep my mouth close tight but that's it.
I always wondered if it has to do with the fact that I have a low level of jaw tension 24/7 since I was 8.


----------



## nznity

Ok guys, from my experience i thought i had lost the magic. Ive been doing pills and MDMA crystals since 2012 with breaks inbetween. Now all this fuzz about mehdma and mdma, like some of you i was skeptical at first. This year ive done around 8 different types of pills but let me tell you what happened last thrusday. So as usual, ive never done more than a pill in a rave, maybe 1 pill and a few fingers of mdma but thats it. What happened last week made me reconsider all the experience i have with MDMA. I dropped at 12am ? 3/4 of a pink redbull thats being going around in my zone lately. I thought it was just gonna be a regular roll like everytime but no, boy i was wrong. By 2 am i was coming up and coming up hard. Man i swear i felt the MAGIC once again, havrnt felt this high since 2013. The pill lasted 6hrs straight with a really smooth comedown. I thought my tolerance was permanently affected because i abused mdma for some time a few years back. Now i totally agree with LeJunk, it's all about the product, serously and a the other pills ive tried this year some of them felt just like Mehdma is described by some in this thread. 2months ago i dropped a green nintendo pill that made me feeel good aswell but nowhere near as the red bull i tried last weekend. It amuses me because 2 years ago i tried another pink redbull but didn't feel like this batch, they were good too. But the batch from Last thrusday was just outstanding 10/10 it literally floored me. Im gonna buy at least 10 more and save them for srpecial occasions since coming across really good pills os becoming harder and harder. Long story short, Long time roller here. I can assure you that mehdma is real, also nice seriously good pills are still around you just need good plugs. Thats all boys, pce. NZN


----------



## heatlessbbq

Meh. I want My MDMA.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Kaden_Nite said:


> Pupil dilation, I have seen vary from almost unnoticeable to people having eyes like guinea pigs. Same with teeth grinding, reports of levels of enjoyment and intoxication etc - all the same people, taking the same amounts of the same batch. I've experienced this personally.



Granted, such people exist, but these are exceptions to the adrenergic effects of this drug.
Furthermore, such atypical response to the adrenergic signaling disruptors (such as MDMA) is a fixed feature of the phenotype and is permanent as such, meaning that an otherwise unmedicated person will always have the same adrenergic response to the disruptor at the same dose level and period, such as this person:


Phobos said:


> I always noticed I have absolutely no grinding or chewing any movement of the jaw whatsoever on any drug, the jaw muscles do become tense and keep my mouth close tight but that's it.



...yet we have reports of different adrenergic responses from *the same* people after long periods of abstinence, which illustrates the variability of the substance - not the patient.




Kaden_Nite said:


> This same degree of variance has been observed in clinical settings using pharmaceutical grade MDMA.


What is the degee of this variance according to your sources and observations?



Kaden_Nite said:


> What you reported, it really doesn't sound that unusual to me. Observing someone, who _may_ have had little interest in taking drugs, consume untested, impure street-grade MDMA before sitting on a couch for the night is not necessarily going to produce an experience that mirrors what has been painfully labelled by some as 'magic' mdma.
> 
> I understand that it was a simple observation on your part, but just for clarity, it is by no means a scientific approach to evaluating the quality of anything.
> 
> MDMA, like every other psychoactive drug, regardless of purity is simply not as consistent as you seem to expect or believe it to be.


Even if the psychoactive effects are *slightly* dependent on the set and setting, it does not mean that the physiological effects are so inconsistent. Especially to the adrenergic disruptors.
The other four 1st-time users, that I have observed first-hand, consumed a well-tested drug and all had the same atypical physiologic response combined with atypical psychoactive effects (serotonergic effects)

These observations (and others by other members of this forum) are just too much of a coincidence to be dismissed as phenotypal variability.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Conversely, the chemical testing that I have documented in this thread showed a lot of variability of the street samples of this substance such as different enantiomer ratios of the tartrate salts, unreacted precursors sold as MDMA, a 2,3-methylenedioxy precursor being used and various contaminants (some isobaric, which are indistinguishable by mass spectrometry). 

So far I have observed more variability in the substance than in the "patients"


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I don't know about that mate, in my experience it's quite rare to get colourless crystal. I know that colour isnt really an indicator for quality, but i usually find that the darker it is, the more 'meh' it is. No, there was no discernable smell, but again, that indicates nothing. One of these days  I'm  going to invest in a bunch of test kits just to confuse myself even further...



And you see, im the complete opposite. First of all, its easier than its ever been right now to get that colorless crystal. In my experience, CLEAR crystals like this have always produced mehdma feelings. When something brown/cola/or tan actually works much better. So if we both experience a complete 180 of ideas about this topic, it means no1 is wrong. The color was just never the answer.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> I keep forgetting how potentially important this particular point is here- come up time.
> 
> It has been highlighted already but when since revisiting the scene recently I still have not got my head around this 45 minutes to 1 hour come up standard, at reasonably large doses as well because I was always used to 20 to 30 minutes pretty much or even less with a double drop like 10 to 15 and you would be coming up hard and fast rushing on ecstasy as they say  "love that phrase hehe".
> 
> Nowhere near an hour. And yes if the effects weren't kicking in very strongly within 30 minutes then it would be apparent that dosage was a very low or the pills were not very active.
> 
> Out of all of the other variables and factors suggested and discussed when I think of this one it seems very suggestive of a real difference.



The best rolls ive had hit me in 30 mins. Not saying hour comeups are always gonna be bad, but the best hardest rolls ive had hit FAST.

Personal request: If your post is a wall of text, im probably gonna skip it. For my lazy ass, can we summarize posts please? Keep em short and to the point.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

epic11 said:


> And you see, im the complete opposite. First of all, its easier than its ever been right now to get that colorless crystal. In my experience, CLEAR crystals like this have always produced mehdma feelings. When something brown/cola/or tan actually works much better. So if we both experience a complete 180 of ideas about this topic, it means no1 is wrong. The color was just never the answer.



Strange. Perhaps the 'magic' in MDMA is something that just happens at random, regardless of precursors, routes of synthesis, levels of abuse and set and setting. Maybe thats what makes it 'magic'?


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Strange. Perhaps the 'magic' in MDMA is something that just happens at random, regardless of precursors, routes of synthesis, levels of abuse and set and setting. Maybe thats what makes it 'magic'?


I mean, your thought isnt far-fetched at all. It could be a possibility. But you and I know on a personal level, that theres a product that comes around occasionally that reminds you what its actually like to roll properly. Its such an annoyance. lol


----------



## Glubrahnum

epic11 said:


> The best rolls ive had hit me in 30 mins.


If the dose, abstinence period, and ROA (including fasting period in case if ingestion) are all kept the same, then the "come up" delay is a significant pharmacodynamic data point.


----------



## Glubrahnum

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Strange. Perhaps the 'magic' in MDMA is something that just happens at random, regardless of precursors, routes of synthesis, levels of abuse and set and setting. Maybe thats what makes it 'magic'?


No, that is only an example of magical thinking.



epic11 said:


> When something brown/cola/or tan actually works much better. So if we both experience a complete 180 of ideas about this topic, it means no1 is wrong. The color was just never the answer.


Yes, the color can be caused by too many factors to be significant.  The shape of the crystal lattice is a much more reliable indicator of purity than color.
If you are concerned about purity, do your own TLC analysis at home.  I posted some links about it recently.  It is cheap and much useful than talking endlessly about the visual appearance of the drug.


----------



## G_Chem

I don’t believe come up times correlate with quality product IMO.  Because I don’t believe there is any one batch/phenotype/synthesis route that is considered the “best” by everyone who tries it.

I’ve always felt this, more so lately, that individuals may prefer this or that batch more.  90’s Leuckart MDMA is an example of that IMO, some people enjoyed the speedy intensity that forced you to dance, others felt it wasn’t the same as pure MDMA.

I’ve tried amazing stuff that came up quick, and other shit that would take 45min.  For me it’s not so much the come up timing as it is the fact that I’m rolling good by an hour or so.

I think there’s going to be some batches which still vary but still also give the “magic” that said certain factors still must remain the same.

I think the best way to figure this out is to talk with people who’ve felt they’ve been either getting magic MDMA or at least retained the magic (assuming the worst and it is tolerance) for all this time, and what variations they feel in their rolls.  By finding commonalities with this population you can get a better answer to your question.

As someone who’s been getting amazing product for much of my MDMA taking career I feel I can respond 

-Pupil dilation is pretty much always there.  That one I can agree on, I can’t think of a time I took a full solid dose and didn’t have big ass pupils.  Maybe not completely engulfed but usually big as fuck.  Noticeable to say the least lol.

-Duration of 4-6 hours.  This one is big to me, and I notice is a complaint a lot amongst others who feel they’ve been lied to by people like me.  Ive only had one roll in all my life that felt shorter than it should have been, I think I dosed at 9pm And was down by 1230 or so..  That was odd to me.  Anything shorter than 4 hours is too short, especially with how fast time flies on the shit.

-Empathy is always on high.  You can’t stay angry at someone on it no matter how hard you try.  I notice this attitude seems to be lacking from a lot of MDMA users these days.

-GC


----------



## Phobos

G_Chem said:


> -Empathy is always on high.  You can’t stay angry at someone on it no matter how hard you try.  I notice this attitude seems to be lacking from a lot of MDMA users these days.
> -GC



I've seen a few examples where people would use this factor to successfully obtain a free bag from the dealer that was rolling after "the bouncer caught them and made them flush it" or some BS like that.


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> -Empathy is always on high.  You can’t stay angry at someone on it no matter how hard you try.  I notice this attitude seems to be lacking from a lot of MDMA users these days.
> 
> -GC



Notice this hugely too. Pure tested mdma on new users isnt causing them to say "I LOVE YOU MAN" They just seem sort of too themselves, but fucked up. Good mdma makes me want to interact with people and i cant be mad.  I CAN be mad on mehdma.


----------



## epic11

Glubrahnum said:


> Would any of you be savvy enough to buy some analytic TLC Plates and solvents to perform Thin Layer Chromatography at home.on your substances ?
> 
> You can use Google to find a vendor of cheap "TLC plates" in your country. They are easy to buy and the procedure can be done at home in a glass with a dropper, some solvent and a UV light source (e.g. disco black-light or this). e.g. see this video or this video.
> 
> It would be ideal if you could test the MehMDMA and magic-MDMA side-by-side and post a photo of the spots on the TLC plate,



This is way over my head, i even watched a video on it. Sorry but this is not gonna happen by me.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> The best rolls ive had hit me in 30 mins. Not saying hour comeups are always gonna be bad, but the best hardest rolls ive had hit FAST.
> 
> Personal request: If your post is a wall of text, im probably gonna skip it. For my lazy ass, can we summarize posts please? Keep em short and to the point.


Absolutely man, point taken and Inappreciate your honesty and directness.

Just to to make something Clear in relation to your point here- I edited that post earlier for typo/correct errors.

I'm terrible for it due to some impairment and variable tiredness.

Yes that is what I am getting at though, that in pretty much all of my experience with decent, legit MDMA, it would barely even be 30 mins before a strong comeup.

Maybe there were more exceptions can I have considered. Hard to reflect on this though as it requires accessing and tuning into those individual experiences from before come up, during transition.

Somehow memories of those parts of experience a little more muddied and not so well stored.  
Now I think of it it may be that I experienced two different types of come up but both from equally excellent MDMA pills.

The fast, hard hitting rise in 10 to 30 minutes.

And then at times a delay of 45 to 60. I think back then I may have assumed it was down to harder pills, like the firrst ever Mitzubishis.  Big, hard, unsnappable things. Arguably the best MDMA pill you could make. But it did take a while to come up.


----------



## AutoTripper

Phobos said:


> I always noticed I have absolutely no grinding or chewing any movement of the jaw whatsoever on any drug, the jaw muscles do become tense and keep my mouth close tight but that's it


I think you can become immune to it. Sure I had the best rolls ever many times with jaw shaking and spasming, in total ecstasy dare I say.

But after a certain point, maybe my jaw muscles were just so much tougher from the workout I don't know- I just never had any problem controlling my jaw or we're grinding or anything like that on any amount of MDMA practically.

It could perhaps also be related to nervous system regulation. I was never into chewing gum. I did one time actually, illegal rave, dodgy speedy and shit Dove pills- I was sick all night and Sunday.

That probably put me off ever wanting to chew gum again when rolling. I never liked chewing gum anyway though.


----------



## Phobos

AutoTripper said:


> I think you can become immune to it. Sure I had the best rolls ever many times with jaw shaking and spasming, in total ecstasy dare I say.
> 
> But after a certain point, maybe my jaw muscles were just so much tougher from the workout I don't know- I just never had any problem controlling my jaw or we're grinding or anything like that on any amount of MDMA practically.
> 
> It could perhaps also be related to nervous system regulation. I was never into chewing gum. I did one time actually, illegal rave, dodgy speedy and shit Dove pills- I was sick all night and Sunday.
> 
> That probably put me off ever wanting to chew gum again when rolling. I never liked chewing gum anyway though.


My point was I never experienced it, first time with stims ever I took 400mg of fire MDMA with a few friends everyone but me was emulating chewing like a camel.


----------



## Happyhand

epic11 said:


> And you see, im the complete opposite. First of all, its easier than its ever been right now to get that colorless crystal. In my experience, CLEAR crystals like this have always produced mehdma feelings. When something brown/cola/or tan actually works much better. So if we both experience a complete 180 of ideas about this topic, it means no1 is wrong. The color was just never the answer.


In my experience, the best roll I’ve ever had was a tan/beige crystallized powder.  That was about 10 years ago and have searched for something like that since, to no avail.


----------



## AutoTripper

nznity said:


> Im gonna buy at least 10 more and save them for srpecial occasions since coming across really good pills os becoming harder and harder.


Ahem...Ithink you missed off a zero or two on the end of that figure? ?


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Absolutely man, point taken and Inappreciate your honesty and directness.
> 
> Just to to make something Clear in relation to your point here- I edited that post earlier for typo/correct errors.
> 
> I'm terrible for it due to some impairment and variable tiredness.
> 
> Yes that is what I am getting at though, that in pretty much all of my experience with decent, legit MDMA, it would barely even be 30 mins before a strong comeup.
> 
> Maybe there were more exceptions can I have considered. Hard to reflect on this though as it requires accessing and tuning into those individual experiences from before come up, during transition.
> 
> Somehow memories of those parts of experience a little more muddied and not so well stored.
> Now I think of it it may be that I experienced two different types of come up but both from equally excellent MDMA pills.
> 
> The fast, hard hitting rise in 10 to 30 minutes.
> 
> And then at times a delay of 45 to 60. I think back then I may have assumed it was down to harder pills, like the firrst ever Mitzubishis.  Big, hard, unsnappable things. Arguably the best MDMA pill you could make. But it did take a while to come up.



Thanks Auto!! Im well aware of your situation and give you the best benefit of the doubt i can. All love.


----------



## epic11

Happyhand said:


> In my experience, the best roll I’ve ever had was a tan/beige crystallized powder.  That was about 10 years ago and have searched for something like that since, to no avail.



Im of the same camp. When "dutch mdma" actually had some merit to it, it was tan/beige generally.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> Notice this hugely too. Pure tested mdma on new users isnt causing them to say "I LOVE YOU MAN" They just seem sort of too themselves, but fucked up. Good mdma makes me want to interact with people and i cant be mad.  I CAN be mad on mehdma.


I just recalled something else from my very early usage days. I remember struggling to get my head aroind how really wicked, evil people could use MDMA and still stay exactly the same. (Not at the time, but in general as people through time).

I was a loved up hippy type though, set free and on a higher wavelength, so being bad was just inconceivable to me.
But I had a hard time accepting that MDMA would not have a dramatic, if any noticeable shift on an evil person's character.

And actually that seems right. At heart we are who we are, and I don't think anything can change that not even the best MDMA.  So maybe there is some room for variation depending on how and who somebody truly is, deep inside.


----------



## Happyhand

epic11 said:


> Im of the same camp. When "dutch mdma" actually had some merit to it, it was tan/beige generally.


There are reports of killer mdma around periodically, but I have heard that many times and ended up quite disappointed, sadly ?


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> I just recalled something else from my very early usage days. I remember struggling to get my head aroind how really wicked, evil people could use MDMA and still stay exactly the same. (Not at the time, but in general as people through time).
> 
> I was a loved up hippy type though, set free and on a higher wavelength, so being bad was just inconceivable to me.
> But I had a hard time accepting that MDMA would not have a dramatic, if any noticeable shift on an evil person's character.
> 
> And actually that seems right. At heart we are who we are, and I don't think anything can change that not even the best MDMA.  So maybe there is some room for variation depending on how and who somebody truly is, deep inside.



Bad intentioned people: Do whatever they want, even when proven wrong with facts

Good intentioned people: Will change their opinions when faced with ultimate facts/truth. 

So my point: If mdma didnt change your life and helped you choose a more loving path than you were previously on, maybe you are just egotistical and cant change your perceptions when shown something differently (mdma for instance) 

I chose to keep that beauty in mind at all times, even after. Its called re-integration. Use that love, and bring it back to the real world.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^This for sure.

MDMA is an amazing love inducing substance but just like psychedelics, the work is in the integration. Pretty much my entire time rolling, I’ve watched people that would talk a big talk while rolling but go back to the same shitty person sober.

But it seems with some modern MDMA that love isn’t even there while rolling.

This is why I only roll with family and close loved ones.  It helps solidify those bonds and makes for easier, less awkward integration.  You feel better loving and hugging on your family then a complete stranger.

-GC


----------



## Phobos

This picture FUBAR posted is a good example, as far as the colour translates on my screen, of how any MDMA I get looks like after an acetone wash, IME.
Cola or champagne both become like this.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

@Glubrahnum

Okay, here's an example:


> MDMA has properties that may make it attractive for psychotherapy, although many of its effects are potentially problematic...
> 
> Early studies from the 1980s noted that MDMA was an entactogen, engendering feelings of love and warmth. However, negative experiences can also occur with MDMA since it is not selective in the thoughts or emotions it releases. This unpredictability in the psychological material released is similar to another serotonergic drug, LSD...
> 
> The release of oxytocin may facilitate psychotherapy, whereas cortisol may increase stress and be counterproductive...
> 
> Overall, many issues need to be considered when debating the relative benefits and dangers of using MDMA for psychotherapy.
> 
> Shortened for relevance, see the link for full article.
> 
> Source:
> https://www.researchgate.net/public...ntial_Dangers_of_Using_MDMA_for_Psychotherapy


Here is a report from Shulgin:


> (with 100 mg) Beforehand, I was aware of a dull, uncaring tiredness that might have reflected too little sleep, and I took a modest level of MDMA to see if it might serve me as a stimulant. I napped for a half hour or so, and woke up definitely not improved. The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I'd felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to. So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: 'I shouldn't have done that, oh yes, I shouldn't have done that, oh no, I shouldn't have done that; it was a mistake.' Then I would start over again from the beginning. I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do. After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back. But so was my plain, ornery tiredness. MDMA does not work like Dexedrine.



Hamilton Morris comments on reports of this phenomenon:






My take on underwhelming or negative experiences:


> Empathy is relative. Yes, it can lead to feelings of love and compassion, but there is another side to that spectrum. Some people seem to become very emotionally fragile after taking MDMA. It has the ability to amplify emotions in general, not just the good ones.
> 
> I've seen people have negative experiences over simple things like losing car keys or pills, feeling as if they are being judged for being on drugs etc.
> 
> MDMA does not emotionally fortify someone from negativity. It is in no way guaranteed to uplift someone from feelings of neutrality.
> 
> There is no constant or guarantee that comes with taking MDMA. Even pharmaceutically pure product in controlled environment comes with countless variables.
> 
> Expecting that guarantee using street-grade drugs in uncontrolled circumstances.. well, good luck with that.


As for the chemistry:


> www.ecstasydata.org
> 
> Over twenty years of test results. I'm not seeing MehDMA there. Not seeing MagicDMA either.
> 
> I understand that Glubra claimed detection of MDPH and 2,3-mdp2p sold as MDMA, but that seems a bit too convenient. I have never seen this documented anywhere else and still haven't.


In conclusion, I don't have this problem. I'm satisfied with the MDMA available today. Believe it or not, all I've done, or tried to do, is add my own perspective which isn't easy here considering the certainty that some people have of some secret compound being sold as MDMA, or whatever it is that people want to believe. My contributions to this thread are obviously pointless.

Having Indigo accuse me of being 'unscientific' the other day.. That really was like receiving hate mail from Hitler.

Good luck on your quest. Hope you figure it out.


----------



## Glubrahnum

@Kaden_Nite



Kaden_Nite said:


> Having Indigo accuse me of being 'unscientific' the other day.. That really was like receiving hate mail from Hitler.


I will not use Ad Hominem remarks towards you nor express hate because of a different point of view.

I receive a share of personal attacks, too. For example the phrase "_...but that seems a bit too convenient_" is an example of that, in the quote that you've quoted:


> Over twenty years of test results. I'm not seeing MehDMA there. Not seeing MagicDMA either.
> I understand that Glubra claimed detection of MDPH and 2,3-mdp2p sold as MDMA, but that seems a bit too convenient. I have never seen this documented anywhere else and still haven't.


...only because I used different analytic techniques than the pill-testing labs and obtained more detailed results.  Namely, I used TLC separation with Raman spectroscopy identification, while these labs predominantly use gas chromatography separation with mass spectroscopy identification.

Given the sample size and multitude of influencing factors, I *cannot* be certain that your observations and conclusions about the variability of MDMA's psychoactive effects are incorrect.
However, I am pretty certain that your conclusions about the variability of the physiological response to MDMA is incorrect, given my observations of virgin 1st time users and literature.

I would like to make a larger study, but I'm running out of willing virgin participants in my social circle and advertising is not an option due to the legal consequences.

Since you quoted Shulgin, I feel I must reciprocate with another of his quotes, which illustrates the similarity of some MDMA precursors and the result of confusing them accidently or on purpose:


			
				in PiHKAL Alexander Shulgin said:
			
		

> A word of caution is in order concerning the intermediate 3,4-methylene-dioxyphenylacetone, which has also been called piperonylacetone.  A devilish ambiguity appeared in the commercial market for this compound, centered about its name.  The controversy focused on the meaning of the prefix, piperonyl, which has two separate chemical definitions.  Let me try to explain this fascinating chaos in non-chemical terms.  Piperonyl is a term that has been used for a two-ring system (the methylenedioxyphenyl group) either without, or with, an extra carbon atom sticking off of the side of it.  Thus, piperonylacetone can be piperonyl (the two-ring thing without the extra carbon atom attached) plus acetone (a three carbon chain thing); the total number of carbons sticking out, three.  Or, piperonylacetone can be piperonyl (the two-ring thing but with the extra carbon atom attached) plus acetone (a three carbon chain thing); the total number of carbons sticking out, four.





> The three carbon sticking out job gives rise to MDA and to MDMA and to many homologues that are interesting materials discussed at length in these Book II comments.  This is the usual item of commerce, available from both domestic and foreign suppliers.  But the four-carbon sticking out job will produce *totally weird stuff* without any apparent relationship to psychedelics, psychoactives or psychotropics whatsoever.  I know of one chemical supply house which supplied the weird compound, and they never did acknowledge their unusual use of the term piperonyl.  There is a simple difference of properties which might be of value.  The three carbon (correct) ketone is an oil with a sassafras smell that is always yellow colored.  The four carbon (incorrect) ketone has a weak terpene smell and is white and crystalline.  There should be no difficulties in distinguishing these two compounds.  But unprincipled charlatans can always add mineral oil and butter yellow to otherwise white solids to make them into yellow oils.  Caveat emptor.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Glubrahnum said:


> Methyl mercury
> 
> 
> Kaden_Nite said:
> 
> 
> 
> You've mentioned this *repeatedly*. Any evidence of it showing up in MDMA?
> 
> 
> Glubrahnum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've detected it only once.
> 
> 
> 
> A month later:
> 
> 
> Glubrahnum said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never seen mercury with MDMA
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Skepticism of your findings which have never been encountered elsewhere and have not been corroborated by anyone except yourself is an ad-hominem attack? Okay.
> 
> You've purposefully ignored the bulk of what I posted to nitpick at the way I speak anyway, so just forget it.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Glubrahnum

Yes, I detected methylmercury only once and it was *not* in a sample containing any MDMA.


			
				Glubrahnum said:
			
		

> I just tested another batch of white powder (not tan) sold as Ecstasy in Amsterdam and the results are:
> 77% 2,3-MDP2P Glycidate
> 8% Methamphetamine HCl
> 0.6% Dibenzylketone
> 0.003% Methylmercury !
> ...and Excipients


Where is the contradiction?

You accuse me of nitpicking while you selectively quote my words without even including the full sentences.  The offending quote is below:


> *I have never seen mercury with MDMA* but Hg was associated with methamphetamine content.


You omitted the grayed-out words, which completely change the sense of my sentence.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Kaden_Nite said:


> Skepticism of your findings which have never been encountered elsewhere and have not been corroborated by anyone except yourself is an ad-hominem attack? Okay.


Outright skepticism is fine but the veiled innuendo phrase "_...but that seems a bit too convenient_" is beyond that.
Skepticism targets results and conclusions - not the researcher.  What kind of "_convenience_" does this quote refer to, huh?



			
				Kaden_Nite said:
			
		

> You've purposefully ignored the bulk of what I posted to nitpick at the way I speak anyway, so just forget it.


I never wrote anything about "_the way you speak_", I just disagreed with what you write about your assessment of the variability of MDMA's physiological effects.

Also, I did not ignore the gist of your penultimate post, which was centered on the subjectivity and variability of the psychoactive effects.
That's why, I even granted you that I cannot be certain about your assessment of the psychactive efect being incorrect.  Read it carefully:


			
				Glubrahnum said:
			
		

> ...I *cannot* be certain that your observations and conclusions about the variability of MDMA's psychoactive effects are incorrect.


Also, I believe you that the "MDMA" that you have access to, satisfies you and does not support the existence of "Meh MDMA" or any systemic change in this drug.
However, you should not form firm convictions based on that fact, because the lack of evidence for existence, does not constitute the evidence for nonexistence.

Even if you don't like me and ignore my analysis, you should not ignore what other members of this forum are saying.

In the end, the question posed by the title of this thread, still stands.


----------



## heatlessbbq

I love empathy!


----------



## Glubrahnum

According to *this video*, the psychoactive effects of MDMA are pretty consistent across the population, too.  Empathy included.
Note how many time the word "consistent" appears in the talk made by this professional drug researcher.

Of course there will always be some atypical reactions in small number of mutants


----------



## me.and.emma

AutoTripper said:


> I just think, in general, Drugslab are a bit too showy, tongue in cheek and not real or factual enough without making a bit too much of a silly joke out of everything.
> 
> Harm reduction and drug education is a serious business after all. I really don't think I would recommend them as a reliable, thorough and accurate/objective resource for drug education.
> 
> A bit of fun, sure. If that is what they are about, fair play, as long as viewers can be somewhat conscious of that.


Not really, they are super educational on all sort of substances. Their normal shows are usually in the studio trying out various (also pretty unusual) substances and logging everything live including the comedown next day.


----------



## epic11

Phobos said:


> This picture FUBAR posted is a good example, as far as the colour translates on my screen, of how any MDMA I get looks like after an acetone wash, IME.
> Cola or champagne both become like this.



Interesting, so this product is the after pic of an acetone wash on any color mdma? Interesting, cause this is what most "mehdma" is looking like these days. Maybe we did like it dirtier? LMAO


----------



## me.and.emma

indigoaura said:


> I do have this bit of info to share, which is interesting to me. I have been having these issues of nausea, dizziness, and lingering stomach problems following MDMA use. This occurs days afterwards usually. This summer, I had a similar next day response to LSD. However, while I was out of town, I had this same response to physical exertion. I did a hike that was a bit too much for my current abilities. It had about a 2000 foot elevation gain in 2.2 miles (then, obviously, the 2.2 mile decline). It was way too hot to be doing the hike. I had water with me, but probably should have had more. In any case, the next day I had the same nausea and dizziness that I get after MDMA. Here is another weird thing...during the hike, I experienced jaw pain and jaw tension as well.
> 
> Any theories on what is going on? I have done worse hikes that this before and not ever had next day nausea or dizziness. Seems to me that this is a physiological issue with my body and not something specifically related to the product.


could be hyponatremia, low magnesium in combination with low count of good gut bacteria?


----------



## G_Chem

While we can’t deny that there is without a doubt a permanent tolerance which can be incurred by some individuals, I just have to agree that many batches of MDMA don’t seem to reliably do what they used to for many newer users.

I swear on Reddit, there’s like a post or two on each page with people thinking they lost the magic after like 2 uses cuz everything they find (even with reagent testing) isn’t matching up to their expectations.  This was never the case before.

The only theory that I’m personally willing to entertain beyond problems with the product itself, is environmental or dietary changes.  I’m starting to believe LTC may also be related to this.  Our environment and our food becomes more toxic by the day, and it’s very possible this could have untold consequences on a multitude of things.


Also I highly respect you Kaden, you’ve done an amazing job arguing your point and have no doubt made me think more than twice on it all.  That said, I don’t respect Hamilton in the slightest and feel he isn’t the best resource for many things drug related.

And curious where that quote on Glubra came from? Was that a response from EData?

While I can completely understand the skepticism I have to speak on his behalf.  I don’t know the guy personally but have been speaking with him on this subject for years now.  I can smell bullshit fairly quickly I’d like to believe, if Glubra was a bullshitter I would have caught on by now.  He would have slipped up somewhere along the way, in all this time he hasn’t..

I truly don’t see what Glubra has to gain by lying about these results over all these months (2 1/2 years or so?).

All that said, we do need someone else to corroborate some of these results.  Unfortunately chemists with such capabilities are few and far between.

-GC


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> While we can’t deny that there is without a doubt a permanent tolerance which can be incurred by some individuals, I just have to agree that many batches of MDMA don’t seem to reliably do what they used to for many newer users.
> 
> I swear on Reddit, there’s like a post or two on each page with people thinking they lost the magic after like 2 uses cuz everything they find (even with reagent testing) isn’t matching up to their expectations.  This was never the case before.
> 
> The only theory that I’m personally willing to entertain beyond problems with the product itself, is environmental or dietary changes.  I’m starting to believe LTC may also be related to this.  Our environment and our food becomes more toxic by the day, and it’s very possible this could have untold consequences on a multitude of things.
> 
> 
> Also I highly respect you Kaden, you’ve done an amazing job arguing your point and have no doubt made me think more than twice on it all.  That said, I don’t respect Hamilton in the slightest and feel he isn’t the best resource for many things drug related.
> 
> And curious where that quote on Glubra came from? Was that a response from EData?
> 
> While I can completely understand the skepticism I have to speak on his behalf.  I don’t know the guy personally but have been speaking with him on this subject for years now.  I can smell bullshit fairly quickly I’d like to believe, if Glubra was a bullshitter I would have caught on by now.  He would have slipped up somewhere along the way, in all this time he hasn’t..
> 
> I truly don’t see what Glubra has to gain by lying about these results over all these months (2 1/2 years or so?).
> 
> All that said, we do need someone else to corroborate some of these results.  Unfortunately chemists with such capabilities are few and far between.
> 
> -GC



I can attest to this, as when i discovered drugs, I also discovered the fact of taking care of yourself through nutrtion. Even the high quality whole foods that i ONLY eat, have lost some of their nutrients. There is a large-scale enviromental problem going on, thats affecting our food. This thought, is not unfounded. I literally changed my diet to make drugs work, and work VERY VERY well. That hasnt changed.


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> While we can’t deny that there is without a doubt a permanent tolerance which can be incurred by some individuals, I just have to agree that many batches of MDMA don’t seem to reliably do what they used to for many newer users.
> 
> I swear on Reddit, there’s like a post or two on each page with people thinking they lost the magic after like 2 uses cuz everything they find (even with reagent testing) isn’t matching up to their expectations.  This was never the case before.
> 
> The only theory that I’m personally willing to entertain beyond problems with the product itself, is environmental or dietary changes.  I’m starting to believe LTC may also be related to this.  Our environment and our food becomes more toxic by the day, and it’s very possible this could have untold consequences on a multitude of things.
> 
> 
> Also I highly respect you Kaden, you’ve done an amazing job arguing your point and have no doubt made me think more than twice on it all.  That said, I don’t respect Hamilton in the slightest and feel he isn’t the best resource for many things drug related.
> 
> And curious where that quote on Glubra came from? Was that a response from EData?
> 
> While I can completely understand the skepticism I have to speak on his behalf.  I don’t know the guy personally but have been speaking with him on this subject for years now.  I can smell bullshit fairly quickly I’d like to believe, if Glubra was a bullshitter I would have caught on by now.  He would have slipped up somewhere along the way, in all this time he hasn’t..
> 
> I truly don’t see what Glubra has to gain by lying about these results over all these months (2 1/2 years or so?).
> 
> All that said, we do need someone else to corroborate some of these results.  Unfortunately chemists with such capabilities are few and far between.
> 
> -GC




Then theres this, If you wanna get REALLY wild with the theories, this kids got one hell of one. haha. In 2012 cern literally pushed us to a parallel universe with their LHC experiments. Im not saying one thing or another, but the way he speaks of it is intriguing.

At first you think: Oh some kid rambling....... but wait.


----------



## wereallmadhere

wereallmadhere said:


> Just wanted add my two cents to this, I have no idea if there is "magic" mdma and mehmda haha. But Im a good subject to test this as I didnt experience mdma or any drug other than weed till pretty late in life. The first time I took mdma it, id say it was exactly like what shulgin described it as. My second time with the same material was good , but def. a step down but I only waited 6 weeks. 3rd time I upped the dose to 120mg (plus 60 redose) and it was pretty much like the 1st. Next time I did it, I had not intended to do it that night as I was tripping on shrooms and I took a much bigger dose than I would have at that point if I was sober. I started with about an 8th of shrooms , and probably took 260ish mg of the same mdma , this was the most amazing drug experience I have ever had and really didnt think feeling of such pure bliss was even possible. Ever since that trip, my mdma source changed and my rolls have not been the same. Little to no music enhancement, euforia there is some but nothing like what you would expect... I do get most the other effects such an my body feels amazing, it drops my personality walls, much more open and communitive. Now it possible that musroom/mdma experience changed something and I just cant roll like I used to , or the new mdma is different. Fortunetely I have like 136mg of my original material and I am going to take for my next roll. This will tell me whether some/much of todays mdma is not the same , or its simply  own body chemistry or maybe the shroom/mdma combo was a bad idea , ive seen someone on reddit say the same thing, that thier rolls just werent the same after combing shrooms with e. My last roll a month ago I did a tradition nexus flip, and I have to say that brought back much of the magic. :D Im going to wait another month and try my original material and will report back. For the record, I have tried two different sources of crystal and some orange teslas, and the quality of the roll with those were basically the same, so I am skeptical my original stuff will by any different, but we shall see :D





AutoTripper said:


> Hey, sounds very interesting and thanks for sharing with us and please do report back this will be extremely useful your subjective contribution here which it's still apparently the strongest and only real "evidence" we have lol.
> 
> Although I do genuinely think that the Mere fact that we are even having this conversation and entertaining it seriously is pretty much solid confirmation that the issue does exist because if it didn't then we just would not be here right now plain and simple. Right? Magic loss or no magic loss.
> 
> I only wanted to add here that I used to really enjoy combining mushrooms with MDMA and acid and ketamine in any old combination and in no way did the combination of mushrooms and MDMA negatively affect my ability to experience MDMA effects fully after this if anything the opposite and it kept the MDMA experience fresh and alive for me.
> 
> However I'm not ruling out that something hasn't changed in how you experience MDMA currently but this would possibly be related to your MDMA use and dosages rather than the actual combination with the mushrooms so just something to consider there as well.
> 
> Either way your experience with your 136mg shouldn't fail to be revealing in some way.
> 
> Roll safe and do share. (y)



Hey there. So I rollled this past weedkend with the last of what I began to think of as the magical mdma :D compared to my experiences with different sources of mdma. I ended my last post saying I was skeptical that it would be the magic that I remember it being, but after rolling on it this past weekend, I think it may have been my most magical "pure" mdma experience I have ever had.  I put pure in quotes, as I mean only taking what I presume to be mdma and no other substances lol. For all I know maybe the magic stuff has something else in it, but it tested more less like all my other sources. But this weekend I thought of it as full return to the magic  soaring blissful eurphora, bursting with energy, music sounded out of this world, and even though this was a solo roll, I felt all loved up and looking in the mirror was amazing. :D It could possibly be my imagination and or poor memory  but it also felt like I way sweating more, and my heart was racing more comparitively which does make sense given my other sources of mdma I would call neither sleepy or energizing. 

One thing previously im not sure i mentioned i my first post, was after my amazing previous hippie flip I started to use anti oxidants like ala, alcar, and taking magnesium, and grapefruit. But my last roll which was at an event, I didnt do any of that, but I had some gum with some of those things but I forgot to start chewing it until well after my dose, and the roll was pretty much like I had come to know it to be on all other sources, which are still good, but just lacking a certain something. So im not sure if any of this helps at all :D But for myself, its good to know that I have most definetly not lost the magic, I just lost my connection to the magic. Lol.


----------



## Phobos

wereallmadhere said:


> Hey there. So I rollled this past weedkend with the last of what I began to think of as the magical mdma :D compared to my experiences with different sources of mdma. I ended my last post saying I was skeptical that it would be the magic that I remember it being, but after rolling on it this past weekend, I think it may have been my most magical "pure" mdma experience I have ever had.  I put pure in quotes, as I mean only taking what I presume to be mdma and no other substances lol. For all I know maybe the magic stuff has something else in it, but it tested more less like all my other sources. But this weekend I thought of it as full return to the magic  soaring blissful eurphora, bursting with energy, music sounded out of this world, and even though this was a solo roll, I felt all loved up and looking in the mirror was amazing. :D It could possibly be my imagination and or poor memory  but it also felt like I way sweating more, and my heart was racing more comparitively which does make sense given my other sources of mdma I would call neither sleepy or energizing.
> 
> One thing previously im not sure i mentioned i my first post, was after my amazing previous hippie flip I started to use anti oxidants like ala, alcar, and taking magnesium, and grapefruit. But my last roll which was at an event, I didnt do any of that, but I had some gum with some of those things but I forgot to start chewing it until well after my dose, and the roll was pretty much like I had come to know it to be on all other sources, which are still good, but just lacking a certain something. So im not sure if any of this helps at all :D But for myself, its good to know that I have most definetly not lost the magic, I just lost my connection to the magic. Lol.



You said that you had 2 months break before this roll, do you remember how long the breaks between the previous experiences were?


----------



## wereallmadhere

Phobos said:


> You said that you had 2 months break before this roll, do you remember how long the breaks between the previous experiences were?



The first time I used a new source from my original source and my best roll, it was well over 3 months. I actually have it written down but dont't have it at the moment, but it was probably more like 3.5 months, and going from old source to new source would have been only the 5th time I had ever used mdma.


----------



## Glubrahnum

wereallmadhere said:


> But this weekend I thought of it as full return to the magic  soaring blissful eurphora, bursting with energy, music sounded out of this world, and even though this was a solo roll, I felt all loved up and looking in the mirror was amazing


When you looked into that mirror, did you notice the diameter of your pupils?

Also, did you gage your pulse rate, by any chance?


----------



## me.and.emma

hi all *waves*
I want to share a few experiences with you.

I could be classed as a long term and frequent user.

I started taking MDMA in pill and crystal form in 2004. Both were readily and cheap available where I live. we never tested products and all stuff I ever had was very good. I would start the night with a dab of crystal and then move on to a half a pill. I like the gentle come up of the crystal and with the pill parts later on I could really reach an extremely satisfying, euphoric, dance and talk to people all night magic experience. I never took high doses, eat healthy, don't drink alcohol with it, but took really frequently like 3 times a month. never had bad comedowns, don't suffer from the blue tuesday, the worst would be me being tired and dream the days after very movie like/ lucid and vivid. In late 2009 suddenly things changed. I went to my dealer to get pills and powder and the stuff was odd. I went and I had it tested (tests very I live are very easy to access and also inexpensive). It tested as MDMA.
There was talk about some huge precursor bust and that it was problem to make it the same way as before.
But luckily it wasn't long and good stuff was around again. Till i would say 2015 in july I first encountered one of the those weird new mehMDMA pills. Red UPS they were and they were very well produced big and shiney red hard. I got warned that they had 280 mg in them. I took a third and the high I got from them was just bloody awful. It hit me much faster than normally. I would always take an hour to come up, but this hit me within 30 minutes. and it was like it got slapped in the face/ onto my head continuously. Like all the high happened in the head. I was dizzy/ disorientated. I had to leave the dancefloor (I never before had to leave the dancefloor on the magic stuff, in fact it made me always enjoy the music and beats like crazy)  and find a bench near the entrance to sit down. I sat there feeling so fucked up, I had no interest to talk to somebody, it was actually really hard to talk, I was just hoping this would end soon, no euphoria, no body high, no love (oxytocin release) , just this awful stressy slapped around head space with a shit load of nystagmus. My eyelids were hurting they had such a work out. I was so happy i didn't take more.
From this point on I continued to encounter this problem, with powder with pills. It was so distressing. The next day after taking it was horrible, a headache from hell (note! i never have headaches) muscle pains, body pain, stomach queasy. Like a damn alcohol hangover.  
From all different sources, at different locations, always this weird cracked out stress MDMA.
It got tested and always came back as MDMA. 
at this point I don't trust the test centres anymore and find it a waste of time to take it there.

I had very few old stuff still around and took that from time to time and everything was fine, good high like always.
I noticed that there was a different taste to it too. I always chew my pills and also let the crystal dissolve on my tongue. I heard that you will get a much smoother high from it, and it seems to be true. From good stuff i always have the same high no matter setting or set. I could for instance be in the most dirty fucked up squat party and with real MDMA I would still have an amazing time, I could take it when I was bordering getting sick and everything would be awesome. I have same time come up/ duration of trip.
This old stuff tasted bitter - of course! but it had an saline/ base like undertaste. 
And this new stuff tasted bitter in a more acidic way. I wish i could describe it better. But instead of the test centre I trust my tongue now. 
I often got offered stuff and take a tiny dab, my tongue warns me: ugh this is the weird stuff...stay away!!!. and I pass it up, saving myself another traumatic experience.

Recently I have come across new pills:
yellow lipton 240 mg and lime green rolls royce 200 mg.
I am extremely cautious now buying only one unknown pill at the time.
It turns out yellow lipton is okay at low doses 70 mg. Come up is smooth, its prosocial, music sounds a bit better, more energy, but it does not quiet take off at that dose, if I take a higher dose, like i once ended up using the whole 240 mg pill, I get the cracked out un-euphoric feeling again, like you feel wasted but not happy. 
the pill tasted bitter acidic.
the pupils are dilated.
It seems its new MDMA but somewhat a bit cleaner.
only slight issues with come down.

Then the rolls royces:
First of all they stink/ smell funny.. like vitamin B tablets maybe?.
But they tasted saline bitter and at just a quarter (50 mg) it feels warm in the belly, happy fluffy social, dilated pupils, mild nystagmus and that smile on the face that you cannot make go away.. all the old symptoms of good M.
At higher doses they are very amazing, like you just wanna dance and everything is awesome.
sleep well on them for 4 hours wake up fresh and rested and can eat and have afterglow till a few days after.

I have also experimented to see that there is nothing wrong with my brain. I have taken a 80 mg of new MDMA pill, waited for come up. Shitty stressy cracked out feeling came and then 50 mg of rolls royce after an hour and half in. When that one started to work everything changed. The good MDMA took over and made the experience from bad to good. That should prove a lot, that there are 2 different products out there! tolerance my ass, loss of magic my ass. 

I remember back in the day the pills were never high mgs. maybe 100 to 120. And I would take half and I got to a good place, and if wanted to take more i would just bite little pieces of and they high would just stay for hours.

my theory on the new stuff is that its most probably MDMA (that's why it tests as it) but it's dirty, not good produced and has side products in it maybe comparable to cheap home made booze vs expensive clean booze?. And that those side products change the way the serotonin gets released, most probably blocks some receptor sites. I read that there are 15 different serotonin receptors in our brain. So maybe only a few get acitvated or the wrong ones in place of all of them and a lot of norepinephrine and cortisol, which could explain the tension and stress? 


But i hope we can really really find the truth here. And a better way to distinguish the good magicMDMA 

me.and.emma


----------



## epic11

Thanks for the story, and a little something i wanna point out here that may be glossed over by a lot of readers. Notice how the rolls royce was only 200mg, and the mehdma one was much higher. Why? Anytime i had good pills, 200mg max was where they sat. Why is there this compensation going on? Wtf? Meh-dma pills seem to have higher content for some reason.

Do you have a picture of the rolls royce? Does it appear old? Handled a lot? Id like to see what ones you have.





__





						DrugsData.org: Test Results
					

DrugsData.org lab analysis and drug checking results




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




Heres all the recent RR pills, what ones?


----------



## me.and.emma

epic11 said:


> Thanks for the story, and a little something i wanna point out here that may be glossed over by a lot of readers. Notice how the rolls royce was only 200mg, and the mehdma one was much higher. Why? Anytime i had good pills, 200mg max was where they sat. Why is there this compensation going on? Wtf? Meh-dma pills seem to have higher content for some reason.


yes that!! and the rolls royce were also matt (not shiny coated) and breakable in half by hand. I think the mehmdma is much cheaper product and to entice people to buy it put a lot in the pill. So most people will think they get a lot for little money? It might be a commercial sales stunt.


----------



## epic11

me.and.emma said:


> yes that!! and the rolls royce were also matt (not shiny coated) and breakable in half by hand. I think the mehmdma is much cheaper product and to entice people to buy it put a lot in the pill. So most people will think they get a lot for little money? It might be a commercial sales stunt.



So with this theory in mind, it may benefit someone looking to buy to look out for pills that seem more "in line" with proper mdma dosages. I hear too many people eating this 250+ pills whole and not having THAT hard a time. If it were truly 250 of the real deal, your ass is SITTING.


----------



## me.and.emma

here:


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> I went and I had it tested (tests very I live are very easy to access and also inexpensive). It tested as MDMA.


Do you know what testing method was used?

Were the results presented to you in a complete and professional manner?  e.g.:
- salt type
- full IUPAC name; or 3,4-MDMA HCl; ..or just "MDMA"
- enantiomer ratio
- purity / contaminants
- excipient ratio
- spectrogram
etc...


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> This old stuff tasted bitter - of course! but it had an *saline/ base like undertaste*.
> And this new stuff tasted bitter in a *more acidic* way. I wish i could describe it better. But instead of the test centre I trust my tongue now.


Has your tongue ever failed you?  ...does it always differentiate these substances reliably?

Do your pupils, jaw and heart (pulse rate) react differently to these substances?


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> Do you know what testing method was used?
> 
> Were the results presented to you in a complete and professional manner?  e.g.:
> - salt type
> - full IUPAC name; or 3,4-MDMA HCl; ..or just "MDMA"
> - enantiomer ratio
> - purity / contaminants
> - excipient ratio
> - spectrogram
> etc...



In the test centre they use the Marquis reagent test. then they compare the weight and size with their database, if they don't have it on their database they will send it to the lab. I have no idea what gets used there. The weird powder from 2009 was send to lab and came back as MDMA (I remember something like 86 % pure, so what's in the 14%, nobody could tell me and believe me i asked) I believe they don't do in detail testing, that is why I find it so useless to take my stuff there. It feels like a different drug but always test as MDMA.


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> The weird powder from 2009 was send to lab and came back as MDMA (I remember something like 86 % pure, so what's in the 14%, nobody could tell me and believe me i asked)


The remainder could be the hydrochloride, since the 100% MDMA freebase is not a powder (it is a liquid at STP).
MDMA hydrochloride is the most common salt that is a powder,  ...although recently  I encountered the tartrate salt, too


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> Has your tongue ever failed you?  ...does it always differentiate these substances reliably?
> 
> Do your pupils, jaw and heart (pulse rate) react differently to these substances?



Now my tongue is spot on. But it took a while to really distinguish and learn the fine difference of taste, its really subtle.
It's really only when the mehmdma made the large appearance and when I would interchange the 2 different products that this came to light.


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> The remainder could be the hydrochloride, since the 100% MDMA freebase is not a powder (it is a liquid at STP).
> MDMA hydrochloride is the most common salt that is a powder,  ...although recently  I encountered the tartrate salt, too



hydrochloride would not make you feel weird though, I mean it's also in codeine and tramadol tablets. in those 14%, even if it was just 8% hid something evil. But they cannot find it with their testing methods. sadly.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> If it were truly 250 of the real deal, your ass is SITTING.


Funnily, I can relate to this but at the same time, I don't think this necessarily follows.

Numerous times I took higher doses of amazing clean, magical MDMA before 2005. Like 1/3 gram and 1/2 gram doses, and many times 1/4 gram.  I would be so mightlily high but still very functional and mobile. 

I did always handle MDMA extremely well though at all dosages. On a really strong high dose come up, I could ease back, let go and just rush.  Or be stood up, active, poised, energetic and busy depending on how I was feeling.

I am not disputing or challenging your point here just adding this from my own experience. Not everyone reacts the same way to the same dose as we all know and there will always be exceptions.


----------



## nznity

Phobos said:


> This picture FUBAR posted is a good example, as far as the colour translates on my screen, of how any MDMA I get looks like after an acetone wash, IME.
> Cola or champagne both become like this.


that is some nice looking MDMA.


----------



## heatlessbbq

This^ is what's wrong with the MDMA Today.


----------



## Phobos

heatlessbbq said:


> This^ is what's wrong with the MDMA Today.




What is wrong with the picture? Or is it something else?


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> hydrochloride would not make you feel weird though,


Of course not,  Your stomach s full of hydrochloride ions,
It is just that some labs list the purity relative to the pure MDMA feebase (which is a liquid).


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> No my tongue is spot on


The tongue can be a very sensitive chemical analyzer. Do you remember which part of the tongue is most sensitive to the difference ?

Can you play some games with it and pretreat your tongue with small amounts of active liquids such as lemon juice, baking soda in water, vinegar, grapefruit juice, kitchen salt  in water, sweeteners in water ...and let us know if any *one* of them accentuates the difference that you are perceiving ?

Also, please be verbose and even poetic when describing the tastes despite that text and taste don't mix well,


----------



## heatlessbbq

*







*
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine

That is a poor attempt a making ecstasy powder [aka molly].
See that tiny chunk of meth in that pic? Ya... Sketch as can be, Mates.

That image is "fucking F.U.B.A.R." *M D A [s a s s] mixed with "de-powderized" methamphetamine.*
See the dark purple shades within the *MDA*? *Ya... That ain't MDMA.* THAT IS METHYLENEDIOXY*AMPHETAMINE* aka sass or MDA.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

^ You're just taking the piss aren't you...


----------



## leet

I LOVE MDA


----------



## G_Chem

@me.and.emma Thank you for posting, I can tell you know a thing or two on the subject and have been deep in the mdma scene for quite awhile.

Something that stands out to me, and if anyone read my recent report where I feel I finally felt I stumbled upon some MehDMA in the form of an imported ecstasy tablet (I always take domestic/local crystal or the occasional press) was the difference in taste.

These presses were supposedly 200-220mg, G6 SoCal presses.  An excessive dosage IMO compared to the 100-120mg presses we get locally. Very likely imported Dutch product which is pressed in the US.

The taste was exactly as you describe.  I too chew everything I eat too, pill or crystal, cuz I can’t swallow pills lol.  Normal MDMA has a strong bitterness for me often with a slight sassy after taste, I’ve tasted the slight saltiness too but believe that just to be leftover from the final AB purification of the product.  This new stuff had that acidity!!

Exactly as you describe Emma.  It also had less bitterness than I’d expect too.  If anyone has ever tried 5-MAPB it resembled that more in taste than true MDMA.  Just an odd synthetic acidic taste.

I too think I could spot the imposter shit by taste if I were ever to encounter it again it was that different. Unfortunately taste is very subjective and not everyone’s taste buds are working 100%.

Also your after effects perfectly match @indigoaura and the dizzying effect sounds right in line with the effect many get during an experience which ends with LTC.

-GC


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> The tongue can be a very sensitive chemical analyzer. Do you remember which part of the tongue is most sensitive to the difference ?
> 
> Can you play some games with it and pretreat your tongue with small amounts of active liquids such as lemon juice, baking soda in water, vinegar, grapefruit juice, kitchen salt  in water, sweeteners in water ...and let us know if any *one* of them accentuates the difference that you are perceiving ?
> 
> Also, please be verbose and even poetic when describing the tastes despite that text and taste don't mix well,



what would be the purpose of this? i am confused.


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> what would be the purpose of this? i am confused.


If one of these substances accentuates the difference in taste, it might help other people to detect the subtle difference and give me a hint what to test for.more extensively.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> These presses were supposedly 200-220mg, G6 SoCal presses.  An excessive dosage IMO compared to the 100-120mg presses we get locally.


...and for 50 years 80-120mg were enough for most people.  Why the double doses set red flags only for people like you?
Are people so much fatter nowadays ? ...even the first-time users ?

P.S.
Maybe the dose-response curve has changed globally due to these LHC experiments, that *epic11* has mentioned recently


----------



## me.and.emma

G_Chem said:


> @me.and.emma Thank you for posting, I can tell you know a thing or two on the subject and have been deep in the mdma scene for quite awhile.
> 
> Something that stands out to me, and if anyone read my recent report where I feel I finally felt I stumbled upon some MehDMA in the form of an imported ecstasy tablet (I always take domestic/local crystal or the occasional press) was the difference in taste.
> 
> These presses were supposedly 200-220mg, G6 SoCal presses.  An excessive dosage IMO compared to the 100-120mg presses we get locally. Very likely imported Dutch product which is pressed in the US.
> 
> The taste was exactly as you describe.  I too chew everything I eat too, pill or crystal, cuz I can’t swallow pills lol.  Normal MDMA has a strong bitterness for me often with a slight sassy after taste, I’ve tasted the slight saltiness too but believe that just to be leftover from the final AB purification of the product.  This new stuff had that acidity!!
> 
> Exactly as you describe Emma.  It also had less bitterness than I’d expect too.  If anyone has ever tried 5-MAPB it resembled that more in taste than true MDMA.  Just an odd synthetic acidic taste.
> 
> I too think I could spot the imposter shit by taste if I were ever to encounter it again it was that different. Unfortunately taste is very subjective and not everyone’s taste buds are working 100%.
> 
> Also your after effects perfectly match @indigoaura and the dizzying effect sounds right in line with the effect many get during an experience which ends with LTC.
> 
> -GC


OMG! That is pretty awesome that you can taste the difference too. first other person I know of, everybody here thinks I am very mad talking about different bitters.

So Yes you are right, this will not work for everybody.


I was thinking could it have something to do with the way the tests turn from lets say green to black, purple to black, blue to black. I read on here earlier on, that there is a variation in the start off colour. And that somebody mentioned before that old products always turned first blue and then black? (or was it purple. not sure now) And that a change has come about in the last decade.
acid bitter should be more on the green turquoise spectrum and saline bitter purple? I am sorry I don't know what sassy bitter is, people have said like root beer is sassy, but where I live this is not a thing.
Could that explain that the medmdma causes so much health issues while the magicMDMA even at high doses had no bad impact on the body?
Could it be an idea to watch very carefully what the colour is before it turns black on test kit?
Maybe take a slowed time video?
Just ideas. 
There has to be an answer to this!


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> If one of these substances accentuates the difference in taste, it might help other people to detect the subtle difference and give me a hint what to test for.more extensively.


aha, I get you now. There would be slight problem though, I cannot put lemon juice or any very sour things on my tongue, from the slightest amounts I get ulcers. I could try salt, baking soda &  something sweet others than sweeteners. Or must it be in particular sweeteners?


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> aha, I get you now. There would be slight problem though, I cannot put lemon juice or any very sour things on my tongue, from the slightest amounts I get ulcers. I could try salt, baking soda &  something sweet others than sweeteners. Or must it be in particular sweeteners?


They don't have to be particular.  It is just a shot in the dark.  Maybe you will strike "gold" and find one accentuationg substance, that makes the difference very obvious so other people can spot it easily without having your sensitivity.

You don't have to swallow it, btw,


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> Has your tongue ever failed you?  ...does it always differentiate these substances reliably?
> 
> Do your pupils, jaw and heart (pulse rate) react differently to these substances?



And forgot to answer your second question:
acidic bitter mehmdma:
-at low dose no pupil dilation, at higher dose pupils are dilated but not as much as they should be.
-jaw is extremely tense and uncomfortable, by that I mean the side parts of the jaw and not the chin.
-heart and pulse rate feel high, heart especially. I notice it, it pounds. But at the same time I would have no energy. Which i find odd, as I know high heart rate feeling from speed, and then there is always energy with it.
-Also i get really hot even if I sit down.
-it;s hard to smile, almost feel like I need to downward sad smile.


saline bitter magicmdma:
-pupils dilate properly (even at low dose of 50 mg) at higher doses eyes are almost black.
-jaw isn't that tense, but then I can relax my jaw on this stuff, sometimes when I have higher doses i have a shivering chin and get tongue tied while talking(and then find this very funny)
-heart rate and pulse feel high, but not that it bothers me. I am in such a good place. And it does not feel like my heart is pounding
-before come up I always get really cold, just before the magic comes. When it's there and I move I get glowy warm all over, when I dance I sweat/get hot, when I sit down for a while I get cold again. It's very easy to regulate the body temp on magicmdma.
-smile does not go off the face, even trying to look serious for foto, it's almost impossible and very hard.


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> They don't have to be particular.  It is just a shot in the dark.  Maybe you will strike "gold" and find one accentuationg substance, that makes the difference very obvious so other people can spot it easily without having your sensitivity.
> 
> You don't have to swallow it, btw,



I will try and will report back.


----------



## heatlessbbq

From previous page [121].


F.U.B.A.R. said:


> heatlessbbq said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine
> 
> That is a poor attempt a making ecstasy powder [aka molly].
> See that tiny chunk of meth in that pic? Ya... Sketch as can be, Mates.
> 
> That image is "fucking F.U.B.A.R." *M D A [s a s s] mixed with "de-powderized" methamphetamine.*
> See the dark purple shades within the *MDA*? *Ya... That ain't MDMA.* THAT IS METHYLENEDIOXY*AMPHETAMINE* aka sass or MDA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^ You're just taking the piss aren't you...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...




F.U.B.A.R. said:


> ^ You're just taking the piss aren't you...


You want Me to?


----------



## Phobos

heatlessbbq said:


> From previous page [121].
> 
> 
> 
> You want Me to?



How many times has it been already that someone has to remind you that you can't identify a substance by looking at a picture?
No only you think you know it's not MDMA, but you also see that it is a mix of MDA and Methamphetamine? 
Well, it's not blue, so at least we know there is no DOC.



> *
> 
> 2 - No substance IDs
> *
> If you've just bought some new ecstasy tablets, and want to know if they're good, look at www.pillreports.com or ask in your regional forums. MDMA & Empathogenic Drugs is a global forum, with posters from Europe, America, Australia and everywhere in between, and a green dove in LA might not be the same as a green dove in Rome.
> 
> Powders or crystals are even harder to identify over the internet as taste, smell, texture, even the effects are far from accurate identifying properties. There are too many other substances sold as MDMA that try to closely mimic its properties to be able to tell which drug you have. In case we get it wrong it might cause someone to ingest something harmful, which goes against the principle of harm reduction


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

heatlessbbq said:


> From previous page [121].
> 
> 
> 
> You want Me to?



Yeh, go for it..


----------



## heatlessbbq

You all don't know who I am, do You?


----------



## AutoTripper

heatlessbbq said:


> You all don't know who I am, do You?


Mate, I think you are just a troll. Good and proper. I tried to give you a chance but I'm losing respect fast. You don't annoy me at all, but your contributions here are continuously ridiculous and pointless so I think I may just revert to completely ignoring you as I'm sure many others have already done I have no doubt.

I'm sorry but I just genuinely don't get any benefit or enjoyment or entertainment out of your posts whatsoever I just get confusion as I try to work you out. I surrender, troll away.


----------



## Phobos

heatlessbbq said:


> You all don't know who I am, do You?


Out of curiosity, I might be interested.
But whoever you might be, it's got nothing to do with what you post being true or false.


----------



## heatlessbbq

Thank You. I appreciate an open board.


----------



## wereallmadhere

Glubrahnum said:


> When you looked into that mirror, did you notice the diameter of your pupils?
> Also, did you gage your pulse rate, by any chance?



Honestly no... My pupils were big but I could not say how it compares to the other stuff I have used. I wish I had taken a picture of them like I do a lot of times, I guess I was distracted by what a great roll I was having lol. As for heart rate I think i mentioned that subjectively, my heartrate felt more elevated but that doesn't mean it was. Good news is I may have a line on that old stock it just expensive, and will require a road trip. Will have to see how it goes if that actually happens lol.


----------



## indigoaura

@Kaden_Nite 


> Having Indigo accuse me of being 'unscientific' the other day.. That really was like receiving hate mail from Hitler.



Really man? You're gonna go and compare me to Hitler? 

Typed posts often don't come across with the intended tone, in the way the writer "hears" the post in the head. So, I am not sure how you took my post. I certainly did not intend it as hate mail though. Your posts have come across with a negative tone to me, but perhaps that is not how you intended them either.

I said your concepts seemed unscientific because they seemed unscientific to me. You accuse me, and others, of being locked on to our thesis, but you are equally locked on to yours despite ongoing new evidence. There is seemingly no evidence that can be provided to make you consider that there may be a problem with the product. 

You can have whatever opinion you want, but I just do not see the strength of the argument that all MDMA is the same and just produces a wide variety of wildly inconsistent effects among both new and experienced users. Especially when the effects were very consistent for everyone I knew for an extended period of time. 

Me disagreeing with you is not hate. Me disagreeing with you is not an accusation. I just do not personally think it makes sense for the exact same drug to produce such a huge range of effects in such an inconsistent manner, especially when "loss of magic" has been removed as a factor and new users are taking the substance.


----------



## indigoaura

@me.and.emma I related to so much from your posts. Thanks for posting. You have something that many people posting here seem to lack - access to both products. Since you have access to both, you are able to confirm that one product consistently produces a more negative effect, and the other product consistently produces a more positive effect.

I feel like I am not the best person to comment/contribute because loss of magic is a possibility with me. I have not had access to a product that produced the desired/expected effects for a very long time. So, I cannot disprove loss of magic as the reason for my issues.

I have tried to film the reagent test results, but unfortunately, those slight color variations just so not come across correctly.

If you don't mind me asking, what part of the world are you in?


----------



## indigoaura

For anyone interested. I finally managed to salvage this file. I have copied it exactly as written, but removed any names from my notes. I will add commentary separately. Wish it was more detailed than this, but oh well.



> April 2000, 1/2 Orange Pacman, No Effect
> June 2000, 2 White Shells, 2 hour roll
> July 2000, 3 Snow Whites, Very weird...not MDMA
> July 2000, 2 Mini Chips, Damn DXM
> August 2000, 1 1/2 Red Mickey Mouses, Hooray!
> November 2000, 2 Red Robins, 2 hour roll? again?
> December 2000, 2 White Octagons, Nice
> January 2001, 3 White Rockets. Um, 3 hour roll
> February 2001, 2 White Devils, Way too much Nausea
> March 2001, 2 White Devils, Sucked ass again
> April 2001, 1 1/2 Green Chicago Bulls, Ahhh...
> May 2001, 2 Green Iceburgs (I ate a pill at all?) and 1 Green Chicago Bull, Ahhh...
> June 2001, 1/2 Yellow Diamond, very pleasant
> June 2001: 2 Pink Moons 1 Green Euro
> July 2001, 3 Purple Ferraris, 1 Green Euro
> August 2001, 3 Pink Elephants, Wonderful
> September 2001, 2 Pink Elephants, Wonderful again
> September 2001, 1 Pink Stunner, Oh my goodness
> October 2001, 2 1/2 Pink Stunners, Heaven...
> October 2001, 1 White Anchor, 2 Pink Stunners
> November 2 Pink Stunners, 2 white anchors
> 
> 12/2005 I have not kept up with this list, but I want to write down some additional types I recall taking, as best as I can recall…
> 
> Late 2001/Early 2002:
> Red Anchors
> Yellow Gators
> Apples (yellow?)
> White Doves
> Red @s
> 
> Mid 2002/Late 2002
> Green/Blue Stickmen
> White, unstamped
> Blue Dolphin (Bunk @ Party)
> Pink Snoopys (Early 2004)
> It was blue, I think it was a rocket or a plane maybe
> Blue JJs
> White Rolex?
> Hearts with arrow



Everything before April, 2001 was from random, inconsistent suppliers (different people). Starting with the green Chicago bulls, all the way through the end of the list with the exception of the red anchors, apples, @s, and blue doplins were from the same supplier as far as I recall.

I began using reagent testing with the Snow Whites, but I was not very good at telling the results apart at first. I remember I confused the DXM result with a MDMA result. I also cross referenced everything on pill reports and on ecstasy data. 

Hands down, the best pills I ever had were the red Mickey Mouse pills and the Pink Stunners. The pink moons, elephants, and the yellow diamond stand out as being particularly good as well.

All the stuff from late 2002 onward (except the bunk dolphins) was mostly consistent and fine. Did I roll as hard as I did earlier? Not exactly. But, it produced a very reliable effect, and that was when I was with my 2nd partner and all the crazy sex was happening. 

I recall twice that the pills seemed like they may contain meth, due to the orange flecks in the reagent response and the effects. Both times were in mid-2003, so I am not even sure those pills are on this list. 

The only thing I recall that was similar to the MehDMA were the green icebergs. I was very suspicious of those, so I sent them in to the lab.








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #694 - Iceburg, 694
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




On that night, I took the icebergs, did not roll right, then took the Chicago Bull and rolled fine. 

So, this is what my early use looked like. Reading over it now, I see that I rolled quite a bit. 

I'll have to dig through other old notes and files to see when my supplier "retired." I recalled it being in 2005, but looking at this list, maybe it was earlier than that.


----------



## AutoTripper

@indigoaura yes frequently enough you could say by today's standards, maybe more so than you remembered or kept mind of.  But in some cases it seems you didn't have genuine product so I suppose they don't really count right?

217mg total weight for the iceberg, good old small pills. Twice that now in most cases, but then twice the dose weightwise.
Maybe it was just too low a dose and was effectively an underdose for you that night which you didn't experience in the best way until you properly came up with the addition of the Chicago Bull. 

You took more than 1 many times as well as you have conceded too previously but maybe you were taking larger quantities than you remember?
I expect some or many were sub 100mg dose though.

What I was going to say is how, except for the White Doves, (which I never personally took very many of just saw occasionally here and there over the years),  I never came across any of those presses during that time period in the United Kingdom.  So we were getting our MDMA pressed pills from very different places and people over those years perhaps it might seem.

Whether it was all from the same origin and production line before pressing who will ever know.


----------



## epic11

me.and.emma said:


> And forgot to answer your second question:
> acidic bitter mehmdma:
> -at low dose no pupil dilation, at higher dose pupils are dilated but not as much as they should be.
> -jaw is extremely tense and uncomfortable, by that I mean the side parts of the jaw and not the chin.
> -heart and pulse rate feel high, heart especially. I notice it, it pounds. But at the same time I would have no energy. Which i find odd, as I know high heart rate feeling from speed, and then there is always energy with it.
> -Also i get really hot even if I sit down.
> -it;s hard to smile, almost feel like I need to downward sad smile.
> 
> 
> saline bitter magicmdma:
> -pupils dilate properly (even at low dose of 50 mg) at higher doses eyes are almost black.
> -jaw isn't that tense, but then I can relax my jaw on this stuff, sometimes when I have higher doses i have a shivering chin and get tongue tied while talking(and then find this very funny)
> -heart rate and pulse feel high, but not that it bothers me. I am in such a good place. And it does not feel like my heart is pounding
> -before come up I always get really cold, just before the magic comes. When it's there and I move I get glowy warm all over, when I dance I sweat/get hot, when I sit down for a while I get cold again. It's very easy to regulate the body temp on magicmdma.
> -smile does not go off the face, even trying to look serious for foto, it's almost impossible and very hard.



My thoughts and feelings are on par with this description of mehdma vs. mdma.


----------



## indigoaura

I find it interesting that there are all these pills on ecstasydata now that contain "synthesis byproducts" identified as "unidentified chemicals that appear to be leftover from synthesis."

So, this pill: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=7759#

495 mg with only 157.2 mg of MDMA

Obviously, a lot of that is filler to press the pill, but how many mg are "synthesis byproducts?"


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Obviously, a lot of that is filler to press the pill, ...


Obviously



indigoaura said:


> ..., but how many mg are "synthesis byproducts?"


That is the question to be asked of them. Excipient to "Other" ratio.

Many substances exist, that are active in the *microgram* range.  Some of them you know and love,...some of them you don't


----------



## nznity

indigoaura said:


> For anyone interested. I finally managed to salvage this file. I have copied it exactly as written, but removed any names from my notes. I will add commentary separately. Wish it was more detailed than this, but oh well.
> 
> 
> 
> Everything before April, 2001 was from random, inconsistent suppliers (different people). Starting with the green Chicago bulls, all the way through the end of the list with the exception of the red anchors, apples, @s, and blue doplins were from the same supplier as far as I recall.
> 
> I began using reagent testing with the Snow Whites, but I was not very good at telling the results apart at first. I remember I confused the DXM result with a MDMA result. I also cross referenced everything on pill reports and on ecstasy data.
> 
> Hands down, the best pills I ever had were the red Mickey Mouse pills and the Pink Stunners. The pink moons, elephants, and the yellow diamond stand out as being particularly good as well.
> 
> All the stuff from late 2002 onward (except the bunk dolphins) was mostly consistent and fine. Did I roll as hard as I did earlier? Not exactly. But, it produced a very reliable effect, and that was when I was with my 2nd partner and all the crazy sex was happening.
> 
> I recall twice that the pills seemed like they may contain meth, due to the orange flecks in the reagent response and the effects. Both times were in mid-2003, so I am not even sure those pills are on this list.
> 
> The only thing I recall that was similar to the MehDMA were the green icebergs. I was very suspicious of those, so I sent them in to the lab.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #694 - Iceburg, 694
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On that night, I took the icebergs, did not roll right, then took the Chicago Bull and rolled fine.
> 
> So, this is what my early use looked like. Reading over it now, I see that I rolled quite a bit.
> 
> I'll have to dig through other old notes and files to see when my supplier "retired." I recalled it being in 2005, but looking at this list, maybe it was earlier than that.


wow, that's quite an impressive journal on your rolls u got there. hhahaha nicely done. The only thing missing is you should've rated em from 1 to or 1 to 10 and the fx they had on you like jaw clenching/euphoria/nausea/time to come up, etc. Apart from that is excellent. Cheers, NZN


----------



## indigoaura

nznity said:


> wow, that's quite an impressive journal on your rolls u got there. hhahaha nicely done. The only thing missing is you should've rated em from 1 to or 1 to 10 and the fx they had on you like jaw clenching/euphoria/nausea/time to come up, etc. Apart from that is excellent. Cheers, NZN



I made a report on every pill on pillreports. Those reports contained all the commentary you mentioned, as well as the test result. I never expected pillreports to purge their database so I lost access to all the details. I took a lot of pride in all those reports I made. Hate it that they are gone now.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea that’s a shit ton more filler than necessary. It seems common for many pills these days to be about half and half, active to filler.  I’d be willing to bet there’s at least 50mg of impurity in that.  Notice how the lab claims it is “one byproduct” too.

I miss my 95% active 5% filler mints that were around lol.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Thought I'd try a little experiment tonight. I dropped another 150mg of that stuff I reported on last week. Now I was in totally the wrong mindset to be doing shit like this (family problems) and I've got work tomorrow. But 1.5 hours later I am melting in waves of euphoria. The come up wasn't quite as fast and hard as last week and I can focus a little better, but it's only been a week. 

I've sussed out what is missing from the MehDMA - it's the EXHILARATION....


----------



## heatlessbbq

3,4-Methylenedioxy methamphetamine


----------



## mind-body-soul

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270219375_Origin_of_MDMA_and_amphetamine_precursors_carbon-14_analysis_of_safrole_PMK_and_BMK


----------



## Glubrahnum

heatlessbbq said:


> 3,4-Methylenedioxy methamphetamine


What's your point ?


----------



## Glubrahnum

mind-body-soul said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270219375_Origin_of_MDMA_and_amphetamine_precursors_carbon-14_analysis_of_safrole_PMK_and_BMK


So the natural precursor can be differentiated from the artificial precursors because the 14C / 12C ratio is higher for the natural ones.
The difference in isotopic ratio is extremely small, on the order of 10-12, thus the result can be falsified with a very small amount of isotopically enriched reagents.

I'll let you decide whether 10-12 excess of  14C is pharmacodynamically significant.


----------



## indigoaura

> I've sussed out what is missing from the MehDMA - it's the EXHILARATION....



That is a good way to put it. The exhilaration, empathy, & rose colored glasses are completely gone. Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best.


----------



## AutoTripper

Glubrahnum said:


> What's your point ?


ABSOLUTELY NONE! Evidently and repeatedly.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best.


Do you mean to suggest I might never have gotten to rave to my beloved old Skool Happy Hardcore music, borne 100% out of and for the ecstasy scene? ? What a scary thought, like..what if...your parents were never born, creepy Sensation down my spine sort of feeling.

Thanks God we did actually get the proper MDMA the first time around, and for a fair while to be fair maybe we are just spoilt lol and expect too much?

Maybe humanity only deserved so much MDMA Bliss and euphoria and us greedy lot used up too many tokens.


----------



## nznity

indigoaura said:


> That is a good way to put it. The exhilaration, empathy, & rose colored glasses are completely gone. Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best.


Exactly the same thing happened with Cocaine in Late 70's/and throughout most of the 80's, ppl were snorting really really really good quality cocaine, that's y it got so popular. Cocaine nowdays is trash and expensive unless u live in one of the countries where they manufacture it(like me cough). I live in Peru and the coke here is mindblowing, and dirt cheap. U guys wouldn't imagine how much a 5 gram bag of really good shit is worth. It shines and it's white pearl the color of it, Not white -white, when it's super white it's cut. Well back OT, years passed and the quality of cocaine decreased so much it's really not worth buying anymore unless u got good connects. Same is happening with MDMA, there's a lot of demand, it's super popular now and some shady people take advantage of this. They don't care if someone dies doing their PMA contaminated pills, they just care of filling their pockets with cash. Sigh......Well there's still MAGIC MDMA going around....somewhereeeeee you guys just needa get a good plug or just keep looking.Cheers guys, Happy Rolling and be safe. NZN


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> The exhilaration, empathy, & rose colored glasses are completely gone. Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best.


Poisoning the well is more effective than banning it ,,, especially for the new to the scene,


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best.



This. This sentence right here is one massive reason im following this topic. 




Glubrahnum said:


> Poisoning the well is more effective than banning it ,,, especially for the new to the scene,



precisely


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> Poisoning the well is more effective than banning it ,,, especially for the new to the scene,



totally! the odd thing is though, in spite of it being mostly crap the general public happily swallows it at the many festivals that happen. A few days ago a video was posted and the people interviewed hardly looked like the had the real deal in them.  But on the other hand, many people that I know, that used to loved the magicmdma have now diverted to much harsher unhealthy substances.


----------



## mind-body-soul

Glubrahnum said:


> So the natural precursor can be differentiated from the artificial precursors because the 14C / 12C ratio is higher for the natural ones.
> The difference in isotopic ratio is extremely small, on the order of 10-12, thus the result can be falsified with a very small amount of isotopically enriched reagents.
> 
> I'll let you decide whether 10-12 excess of  14C is pharmacodynamically significant.



Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my message, like a lot of people here I am trying to find out what happened to the E from back in the day. To be honest I have no idea what the link I posted means nor your reply...I am not a chemist, I just spend time googling the issue, saw a difference in the chart regarding precursors and wondered what it meant, so I plonked it here hoping it would lead some clever guy down a rabbit hole to make some progress on this query. I used to use Ecstasy quite frequently in the early 2000's (2000 - 2003) Then stopped up until 3 years ago (long break yes) when I started again. I don't use a lot now maybe 3 to 4 times a year and boy is it a far cry from what it used to be...it's like the ecstasy has been taken out of ecstasy - it's just really weird!

Thanks again for your time,


----------



## me.and.emma

indigoaura said:


> @me.and.emma I related to so much from your posts. Thanks for posting. You have something that many people posting here seem to lack - access to both products. Since you have access to both, you are able to confirm that one product consistently produces a more negative effect, and the other product consistently produces a more positive effect.
> 
> I feel like I am not the best person to comment/contribute because loss of magic is a possibility with me. I have not had access to a product that produced the desired/expected effects for a very long time. So, I cannot disprove loss of magic as the reason for my issues.
> 
> I have tried to film the reagent test results, but unfortunately, those slight color variations just so not come across correctly.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, what part of the world are you in?



I am lucky in that way right now. But my source could also dry up and have new pills that are just shit again. I can guarantee you that if you will find good stuff, you will roll like the old days. I do not believe in the loss of magic. Maybe tolerance yes, that you need more product to get desired effect. So hang in there, don't give up, Magicmdma will come on your path again.

too bad that the color changes don't come across good enough to make a distinction. 

And I live in Europe.


----------



## AutoTripper

Interesting vein of discusion and conjecture if I'm not misreading the implications. i.e. deliberate alteration of MDMA by a nefarious organisation with a very private sinister agenda?

I am high though mum and I lucked it this summer with out outdoor Autoflowers, we harvested by far the best and most potent herb we had before. It's making me a little crazy like it never has before lol.

But the thought I wish to express-  modern day films like mainstream cinema stuff etc I just cannot bear to watch they are appallingly rubbish in the vast majority of cases and just copies of each other.

They used to make much better films that were actually worth watching and entertaining with decent acting and well well-thought-out and considered plot and choreography with imagination and and fun and suspense

Now there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is the Elitist's express wish that films be as absolutely rubbish and unimaginative and as unentertaining as possible while getting the public to accept that as the gold standard and gobble it down like right mugs.

Modern day films are the most prime example and representation of this but this generally relates to everything in our culture and Society such as mainstream television.

Obviously it serves them to maintain control over our race if they can give us less and keep us happy with less, keeping plenty of slack in the reins so that is one side of it.

But at the same time and I promise you all I'm not crazy I have very good reason to to believe that they also get a sick kick out of seeing just how much they can mug us off and fleece us out of what we rightfully deserve and could and should have in life. 

AND the rest, crikey where do I start!

I expect they laugh and sneer and joke about how stupid the people are to accept such purely rubbish entertainment and still consider that to be be decent.

So...the idea that they pulled strings to cleverly and deliberately meddle with the global production and supply of MDMA to basically make it a watered down much more harmful shitter, lacking version....

I could buy that. I'm open to everything, not paranoid in my own mind anyway. This just struck a chord with me, in relation to what I was saying about purposely dire entertainment.


----------



## Glubrahnum

mind-body-soul said:


> To be honest I have no idea what the link I posted means nor your reply...I am not a chemist, I just spend time googling the issue, saw a difference in the chart regarding precursors and wondered what it meant,


It means that plant-based precursors can be distinguished from precursors derived from petrochemicals. This is done with isotopic analysis of carbon atoms. Their beta radioactive decay differs between isotopes.

This is useful for prohibition agents who want to determine the origin of the precursors during their investigations.

This could also be useful for answering the question posed by this thread, if the "Meh-MDMA" can be strongly correlated with one type of precursor.
Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment for carbon isotopic analysis.


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> It means that plant-based precursors can be distinguished from precursors derived from petrochemicals. This is done with isotopic analysis of carbon atoms. Their beta radioactive decay differs between isotopes.
> 
> This is useful for prohibition agents who want to determine the origin of the precursors during their investigations.
> 
> This could also be useful for answering the question posed by this thread, if the "Meh-MDMA" can be strongly correlated with one type of precursor.
> Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment for carbon isotopic analysis.




I feel we are onto something very crucial here. I bet the new mehmdma is not plantbased. And that's where the whole difference lays, right at the beginning of the process. I recall now talking to an old dealer, that has been in the business for 25 years, about 3 years ago and he said something about synthetic and natural mdma and that's it's nearly impossible to get the natural version now. He obviously knew something. The question is now who could test carbon isotopic analysis?


----------



## epic11

me.and.emma said:


> I feel we are onto something very crucial here. I bet the new mehmdma is not plantbased. And that's where the whole difference lays, right at the beginning of the process. I recall now talking to an old dealer, that has been in the business for 25 years, about 3 years ago and he said something about synthetic and natural mdma and that's it's nearly impossible to get the natural version now. He obviously knew something. The question is now who could test carbon isotopic analysis?



That makes total sense. Anyone who has changed their diet from a chemical synthetic gmo laden diet to a clean organic from the earth natural diet, would understand this. I still think the loss of safrole is the biggest thing going on here. Maybe all the saffrole post ban, has only recently (in the last 3-5 years) been used all up, and NOW we are seeing tons of pmk made mdma. Its really hard to say. But imo, ive only rolled REALLY HARD on stuff that stunk like black licorice strongly and obviously. Think about that.


----------



## me.and.emma

there is also a thing now with synthetic cannabis. Warnings have been out.





__





						What are the effects of synthetic cannabinoids?
					

Many people mistakenly believe synthetic cannabinoids closely mimic the effects of marijuana, but there are significant differences. Although research is limited, preliminary studies suggest that effects include:




					www.drugpolicy.org
				




so what has this to do with the mehmdma?
It looks like they producing a lot of mimicking synthetic products and selling them to us as the real thing.
our mehmdma being just one of them.

Note that with synthetic cannabis you have nasty side effects too, and it's missing some of the good parts of the natural version.

The demand for party drugs has increased tremendously over the last decade. 
Is this the way they keep supply? with synthetic fake product?

Yes possibly, the young generation has no reference and can easily be fooled, while we get told we crazy, we lost the magic and burnt ourselves now. And sadly some of us believed this.

 And as Epic11 mentioned it's already widespread in the food industry. 


welcome to the future :/


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> I feel we are onto something very crucial here. I bet the new mehmdma is not plantbased. And that's where the whole difference lays, right at the beginning of the process. I recall now talking to an old dealer, that has been in the business for 25 years, about 3 years ago and he said something about synthetic and natural mdma and that's it's nearly impossible to get the natural version now. He obviously knew something. The question is now who could test carbon isotopic analysis?


Let's make something clear first.  The small difference in the isotopic content of MDMA, or its precursors, will not make that psychoactive difference.  The difference can be caused by some potent microcontaminant *related to* the petrochemical precursor or something specific to the synth method, which involves that type of precursor, but not the isotopic variation in the precursor itself.

Theoretically, the racemic 3,4-MDMA·• HCl made from a plant-based precursor should be chemically identical to the racemic 3,4-MDMA·• HCl made form a petro-precursor. Theoretically...


----------



## indigoaura

I don't even know that there has to be nefarious intent, just a desire to control a growing scene that was becoming unmanageable. When I came into the rave scene, it was right around the time that laws were being passed in the USA to convict the organizers of the party for crimes in the event that there were overdoses or convictions of partygoers. This was clearly a concentrated effort to shut down the scene. I don't think it is that farfetched to imagine that behind closed doors, other plans were made to water down the supply of MDMA in a way that would not be readily detected. The large labs producing most of the MehDMA and flooding the market may be operating with some kind of immunity, who knows. Obviously, it is a bit of a conspiracy theory, but I would not be surprised.


----------



## me.and.emma

sorry I am posting so much.
My head is turning so much over trying to connect the pieces.

Indigoaura said: "Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best. "

Indeed the rise of magicmdma created a huge change in party culture and electronic music styles.

When you look at what is produced recently electronic underground music wise, it's a lot of dark sounds. Many new dark styles have emerged.

Could that correlate to the mehmdma? you don't feel happy, euphoric, loving on it.
And people express what they feel in the music they make. It has always been this way. Music is a mirror of peoples minds.


----------



## indigoaura

Someone mentioned seeing a video of someone rolling who did not look like they were. Obviously, I would not post it here due to privacy concerns, but I have video of myself  and others rolling from 2000 and 2001. It is OBVIOUS. It was "afraid to go out in public" obvious, much of the time. Now, I look at other people on MehDMA and you can't tell anything. I would go out in public on it with no concern whatsoever.


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> there is also a thing now with synthetic Cannabis. Warnings have been out.
> so what has this to do with the Meh-MDMA?
> It looks like they producing a lot of mimicking synthetic products and selling them to us as the real thing. Our Meh-MDMA being just one of them.


The problem with this theory is that a compound mimicking the 3,4-MDMA, would be routinly detectable on derivatized GC/MS and TLC/RS analyses. Different enantiomer ratios - not necessarily, unless chiral GC columns were used or polarized light in the RS.

Also, MDMA was always synthetic, i.e. it does not appear in nature on its own, unlike Cannabis.


----------



## epic11

me.and.emma said:


> sorry I am posting so much.
> My head is turning so much over trying to connect the pieces.
> 
> Indigoaura said: "Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best. "
> 
> Indeed the rise of magicmdma created a huge change in party culture and electronic music styles.
> 
> When you look at what is produced recently electronic underground music wise, it's a lot of dark sounds. Many new dark styles have emerged.
> 
> Could that correlate to the mehmdma? you don't feel happy, euphoric, loving on it.
> And people express what they feel in the music they make. It has always been this way. Music is a mirror of peoples minds.



Im heavily involved in dance culture, and this trend is real. When mdma was hitting the right way, people were all about that loving happy euphoric RAVE sound, now the ravers generally all like dark sounds. Pretty black n white to me. MDMA that produced kid like love = BRIGHT COLORED RAVES. Mehdma = A confused mindstate, why are we here = i dont like happy music anymore.


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> The problem with this theory is that a compound mimicking the 3,4-MDMA, would be routinly detectable on derivatized GC/MS and TLC/RS analyses. Different enantiomer ratios - not necessarily, unless chiral GS columns were used or polarized light in the RS.
> 
> Also, MDMA was always synthetic, i.e. it does not appear in nature on its own, like cannabis.



You right of course about cannabis thing.
not a very good analogy I made.
What point I was trying to make is that a lot of products get made synthetic. Not using anything natural to start off.

Then if the isotopes things is so small that is makes no difference in psycho-activeness, what could it possibly be?
There IS a difference for sure.
And the theory with natural vs synthetic precursor sounds reasonable.
I am no chemist though, also have very little knowledge of chemistry.
What you say is word to me.


----------



## Phobos

The "safrole is crucial" theory does make sense, but it is really plausible only if either old or new precursors were producing a different result not distinguishable by GC/MS, as has been hypothesised before.
I remember the same happening with an impure precursor making pre ban Mephedrone "better" because it was producing 90% 4-MMC (actual Mephedrone) and 10% 3-MMC (a known analogue that is more of a rushy stim and less serotoninergic).
After the ban actual 100% 4MMC was available due to a different route and people deemed it inferior. But in that case the issue was discovered rather quickly.

I also wondered, would it be in any way reasonable to think that an impurity in MagicDMA could boosts the liver enzyme responsible for demethylation into MDA?




epic11 said:


> Im heavily involved in dance culture, and this trend is real. When mdma was hitting the right way, people were all about that loving happy euphoric RAVE sound, now the ravers generally all like dark sounds. Pretty black n white to me. MDMA that produced kid like love = BRIGHT COLORED RAVES. Mehdma = A confused mindstate, why are we here = i dont like happy music anymore.



Maybe, or maybe it was Ketamine and hallucinogens being used more compared to the past by music producers.
I mean you can't produce music while rolling for 20 years right? People that wanted to stay both realised it is not sustainable and also MDMA could have been a gateway for many other drugs that inspire different sounds.
And the music you make in your 20s and 40s is likely to be different as well.


----------



## AutoTripper

me.and.emma said:


> Note that with synthetic cannabis you have nasty side effects too, and it's missing some of the good parts of the natural version


That's a pretty huge understatement. If we knocked up a rough graph to show both real, clean Cannabis vs Synthetic, with 2 scales- how potentially good, and how harmful, they each are to the body....

Gosh, I'm just trying to think and come up with some sort of realistic image in my mind for helping the look.

I mean, we aren't talking like, synthetic is "twice as harmful" all that "real cannabis is twice as beneficial".

I dont know how to quantify it, we are off the scale in both directions, if you get what I mean.
Just- no comparison.

However, this is not the best analogy for the MDMA situation because MDMA at its very best is still an awfully long way from being "natural" certainly next to cannabis.

Not disputing or disagreeing with anything you are saying by the way @me.and.emma , just picking up on this point that's all.


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> Then if the isotopes things is so small that is makes no difference in psycho-activeness, what could it possibly be?
> There IS a difference for sure.


Possibly it could be:

*1*) When very primitive tests are used (e.g. reagent tests) then there are too many substances, too list here, that can masquerade as the 3,4-MDMA:

*2*) When basic chromatographic/spectroscopic tests are used (e.g. underivatized GC/MS) then *these 22 substances* (...and their enantiomers), can masquarade as the 3,4-MDMA:















*3*) Only chiraliy-specific tests can determine the enantiomer ratio of the 3,4-MDMA. (e.g.: NMR and MS cannot do it). Different enantiomers produce wildly different psychoactive and physiological effects, but public labs don't report it. (BTW: It is difficult and expensive to synthesize non-racemic 3,4-MDMA from racemic precursors).

*4*) The salt type (e.g.: hydrochloride, phosphate, tartrate, citrate, oxalate) significantly changes the mass of the respective MDMA salt molecule and consequently affects the dosing very significantly and sometimes affects the pharmacodynamics/pharmacokinetics, too. The salt type is almost never reported by the public labs

*5*) Crystalline polymorphs can affect the pharmacodynamics, too.  I have never seen them reported by any lab.  These differences can be equalized by dissolving the crystals in water, orange juice, etc.. prior to consumption (some juices might be inhibitory though)

*6*) Even advanced tests can miss a low concentration of a very powerful microcontaminant that has a strong psychoactive/physiological activity, which interferes/inhibits some of MDMA's effects.


----------



## indigoaura

Could the variations in salt type be responsible for the differences in taste?


----------



## G_Chem

me.and.emma said:


> sorry I am posting so much.
> My head is turning so much over trying to connect the pieces.
> 
> Indigoaura said: "Basically, all the elements that fueled the rave movement and PLUR sentiments are absent. MehDMA would not have birthed a scene or changed culture. It would have been a passing novelty at best. "
> 
> Indeed the rise of magicmdma created a huge change in party culture and electronic music styles.
> 
> When you look at what is produced recently electronic underground music wise, it's a lot of dark sounds. Many new dark styles have emerged.
> 
> Could that correlate to the mehmdma? you don't feel happy, euphoric, loving on it.
> And people express what they feel in the music they make. It has always been this way. Music is a mirror of peoples minds.




As someone who’s been in the scene for awhile, I’ve watched the music and vibe go from one of love, hugs and good vibes to greed, hate, aggression, etc..  This isn’t jaded raver talking either, I still fully enjoy music and the scene today and actually prefer lots of the music I find today.  It’s just it seems a negativity has begun to seep into even the relatively underground scene.

My theory on this is beyond bad MDMA though.  That’s part of it, but I believe (talking conspiracies) that it’s a constructed effort to devalue and delegitimize the rave scene.  Just like the beautiful hippie/classic rock culture was mutilated and destroyed, eventually becoming the hate filled metal scene over time.

Over the past decade eyes, pyramids, and owls have become symbols that permeate pretty much every single show and festival you can go to.  I’ve always gone to smaller events, but even little festivals (100-3000 ppl sized) are overran with this shit.  Whether you believe in some organization running the world or not, it gets old to constantly be bombarded with this imagery.

I’ve also caught artists (after using reverse playback) beginning to slip in really demonic phrases that you can only catch if you know what your listening to.  Tracks often have blood curdling screams, terrorizing noises and just all around seem to be designed to induce anxiety in the listener.  These artists also, IMO, are often not that great yet somehow rise fast in the scene and gain huge following.

Now I understand the difference between inducing anxiety and building hype in a track, the two are different IMO.  The worst part is the same artists always talk love and good vibes but their actions don’t line up at all.

Also at the bigger festivals these days you’ll find presses and LSD blotter with this same symbolism. So much blotter with all seeing eye and pyramids on them...  (Often they feel different too.  Hard to say with placebo but more hedonistic and less inwardly.)

There is definitely the possibility of some foul play.  Or coincidentally everyone happens to think this symbolism is “super cool” at the same relative time, and we’re seeing the result of that?

Weird world we live in..

-GC


----------



## Phobos

Honestly I cannot know the intentions behind sounds and symbolism used, but I always loved the hardest and fastest styles of Metal and Hardcore and they always give me euphoria and tears of joy, happy hardcore makes me go like "meh, the amount of drugs I need to enjoy this will kill me 3 times over".
The negativity for me seems a logical consequence of observing and interacting with today's world if you are the raver type.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Could the variations in salt type be responsible for the differences in taste?


Definitely.  See *this*.
Also, salts heavier than the hydrochloride, naturally explain the need for more massive doses and make economic sense because they artificially inflate the weight of the product.

Below are masses of various MDMA salts relative to the mass of MDMA Hydrochloride:


		Code:
	

MDMA Acetate    111%
MDMA BiTartrate 117%
MDMA Oxalate    125%
MDMA BiCitrate  126%
MDMA Phosphate  127%
MDMA Sulfate    127%
MDMA Tartrate   150%
MDMA Citrate    168%

Note, that all of the relative masses of salts listed above, contain the same number of MDMA base molecules.

Also, different salts are generally known to *slightly* alter the pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics of the drug (e.g. see: MDMA citrate) but they do *not* produce wildly different effects, unless the racemic enantiomer ratio is unbalanced during the crystalization process after using a chiral acid to produce the salt (e,g, L-(+)-tartaric acid). However, this does not make economic sense since doing such stereoselective processes can lead to product loss.

@G_Chem
Could you quote some user experiences of MDMA citrate for completeness?


----------



## G_Chem

@Phobos - This is a very real possibility.  It does seem as though some of the artists use it as a way of calling out societal problems and our oppression, but others seem more sneaky in their ways about it.  And often many of these artists go from lovers talking about peace and equality to suddenly sporting pyramids and eyes while simultaneously talking about “getting that money bitch” or “fuck You I got mine” type shit.  The personality and music style shift is usually extreme and very sudden.

In the end it’s hard to know unfortunately.. The world is a confusing crazy place.

@Glubra - So here are some links.  Almost all the information on this salt can be found exclusively over at the old vespiary site.





__





						First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg
					

First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg



					www.thevespiary.org
				








__





						400 mg of mdma citrate
					

400 mg of mdma citrate



					www.thevespiary.org
				








__





						Citrate Vs Hcl
					

Citrate Vs Hcl



					www.thevespiary.org
				








__





						mdma citrate report
					

mdma citrate report



					www.thevespiary.org
				





In the end Mdma citrate could be a possibility..  It would explain the taste and the need for excessive dosages.  It’s effect profile also matches to some extent.  But wouldn’t labs that only test for freebase still see this anomaly?

-GC


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> @Phobos - This is a very real possibility.  It does seem as though some of the artists use it as a way of calling out societal problems and our oppression, but others seem more sneaky in their ways about it.  And often many of these artists go from lovers talking about peace and equality to suddenly sporting pyramids and eyes while simultaneously talking about “getting that money bitch” or “fuck You I got mine” type shit.  The personality and music style shift is usually extreme and very sudden.
> 
> In the end it’s hard to know unfortunately.. The world is a confusing crazy place.
> 
> @Glubra - So here are some links.  Almost all the information on this salt can be found exclusively over at the old vespiary site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg
> 
> 
> First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 400 mg of mdma citrate
> 
> 
> 400 mg of mdma citrate
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Citrate Vs Hcl
> 
> 
> Citrate Vs Hcl
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdma citrate report
> 
> 
> mdma citrate report
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the end Mdma citrate could be a possibility..  It would explain the taste and the need for excessive dosages.  It’s effect profile also matches to some extent.  But wouldn’t labs that only test for freebase still see this anomaly?
> 
> -GC




Hmm just reading the back n forth on those articles is interesting. Citrate salt causing the issues? Its almost as if the posters are describing mehdma in relation to the citrate salt vs hcl.


----------



## Glubrahnum

G_Chem said:


> In the end Mdma citrate could be a possibility..  It would explain the taste and the need for excessive dosages.  It’s effect profile also matches to some extent.  But wouldn’t labs that only test for freebase still see this anomaly?


Any lab can determine the salt type easily - they just do not seem to care about it....nor do the public labs report it.
Hell, anyone could do some high-school chemistry in their kitchen and determine the salt type, if they put their mind to it.

BTW: I've mentioned the citrate only because it was the farthest away from the hydrochloride.  Personally, I have encountered the tartrate recently.

P.S.
Thanks for the links to MDMA citrate experiences.  Its effects seem a little different than those of the MDMA hydrochloride, especially the slower onset.


----------



## G_Chem

@epic11 - So you’d say the effects sound somewhat in line with MehDMA?

@Glubrahnum - Yea from my knowledge the only salts really commonly used are tartrate, phosphate and citrate, beyond HCl of course.

I do remember reading reports on pills that contained the phosphate which were said to be good if I recall correctly.  Pretty sure they were the “HQ” press coming out of SE Asia in early 2000’s.  They were produced in large quantities for sure.  I wonder why that salt was used, maybe simply the easiest acid for them to get?

-GC


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> @epic11 - So you’d say the effects sound somewhat in line with MehDMA?
> 
> @Glubrahnum - Yea from my knowledge the only salts really commonly used are tartrate, phosphate and citrate, beyond HCl of course.
> 
> I do remember reading reports on pills that contained the phosphate which were said to be good if I recall correctly.  Pretty sure they were the “HQ” press coming out of SE Asia in early 2000’s.  They were produced in large quantities for sure.  I wonder why that salt was used, maybe simply the easiest acid for them to get?
> 
> -GC



Pretty damn close ya. I may do an experiment and sniff out some LABELED HCL and see if its different.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Are there any user reports for the other salts mentioned? Looking at those for the citrate salt isn't consistent with my experience of MehDMA as they describe a 5 - 6 hour roll with smooth come up and very dilated pupils with very little come down, albeit with less stimulation and empathy and no comedown. IME the meh lasts at most 3 hours with very little pupil dilation, but a very hard come up and a fried feeling the next day, whereas the good shit comes on hard and smooth, lasts for 5 - 6 hours, stimulating as fuck and leaves me with an afterglow that lasts for days.

Can't get my head round this shit at all...


----------



## Glubrahnum

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> IME the meh lasts at most 3 hours with very little pupil dilation, but a very hard come up and a fried feeling the next day, whereas the good shit comes on hard and smooth, lasts for 5 - 6 hours, stimulating as fuck and leaves me with an afterglow that lasts for days.


Yes, the pupil dilation (mydriasis) and duration, are significant differences.



F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Can't get my head round this shit at all...


The difference does not need to be caused by just *one* factor.


----------



## mooka

imo.. after reading the citrate reports I'm pretty sure they're talking about real -magic- mdma, not meh... nearly psychedelic space, luscious music appreciation... sounds like top class mdma, even if the phamacokinetics are different with the citrate salt.. and if I'm not wrong somebody recently tried to freebase and convert meh product  to hcl salt without any qualitative improvements


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> Tracks often have blood curdling screams, terrorizing noises and just all around seem to be designed to induce anxiety in the listener


Just to pick up on this, and I'm sure you're pretty bang on with your observations and feelings, virtually everything on mainstream television like entertainment shows and all types of films and programmes nowadays are very purposely designed to induce anxiety in the viewer.  There's no question that the clever and sick minded elitists have covered every single angle as thoroughly and completely as they can to try and dampen our awareness and vibration and level of Joy and freedom.

No way are they going to to forget about the rave and musical scene. This all began a very long time ago of course, seeing the riddance of the likes of Bob Marley and Peter Tosh to get the ball rolling.

So I'm totally with you and what you say and observe about the music culture because I see it in every branch of media and entertainment unquestionably a very thorough and concerted attempt to promote anxiety and fear in a subtle and cunning manner whereby people willingly accept it and keep taking it in left right and centre.

You know, I never even actually considered that the Mehdma was a deliberate result of the elitists meddling in this area but I really could actually see such a thing being true in principle and theory anyway but I'm not saying I think it is likely or is actually the case.


Edit- I just remembered (this is all a world's cry from me these years, I never go anywhere), but when the UK annual Glastonbury comes on telly, it absolutely STUNS ME how absolutely shit the modern day artists and their music are, compared to ANY real musician and times gone by.

It really is not music in most cases, and the only highlight of the show which is any good at all involves the real talent of the past playing in their 50s or 60s like Sheryl Crowe this year singing her legendary Sunset Boulevard song.

I enjoyed that as I'm sure the crowd did but then they still seem to think that they were enjoying the ridiculous tambourine shit but the rest of the time.

As a race, in the last 20 years exactly, especially, we have been palmed off.


----------



## me.and.emma

G_Chem said:


> @Phobos - This is a very real possibility.  It does seem as though some of the artists use it as a way of calling out societal problems and our oppression, but others seem more sneaky in their ways about it.  And often many of these artists go from lovers talking about peace and equality to suddenly sporting pyramids and eyes while simultaneously talking about “getting that money bitch” or “fuck You I got mine” type shit.  The personality and music style shift is usually extreme and very sudden.
> 
> In the end it’s hard to know unfortunately.. The world is a confusing crazy place.
> 
> @Glubra - So here are some links.  Almost all the information on this salt can be found exclusively over at the old vespiary site.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg
> 
> 
> First encounter with the citrate salt of MDMA - About 250mg
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 400 mg of mdma citrate
> 
> 
> 400 mg of mdma citrate
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Citrate Vs Hcl
> 
> 
> Citrate Vs Hcl
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdma citrate report
> 
> 
> mdma citrate report
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the end Mdma citrate could be a possibility..  It would explain the taste and the need for excessive dosages.  It’s effect profile also matches to some extent.  But wouldn’t labs that only test for freebase still see this anomaly?
> 
> -GC




very interesting read! 
Note though that nobody found their experience unpleasant and unsatisfying, less euphoria yes and but less hang over also. Citrate is that like a vitamine C? Antioxidants while on the roll are neuroprotective. I supplement all my rolls with anti-oxidants, never have hang-overs. 

Once though by accidents I ate some pure black chocolate on a roll, within 5 minutes I totally came down. That was extremely disappointing and I made a mental note never to do this again. 

Though reading these trip reports,  it does not sound like our mehmdma. Maybe mehmdma hides as one of the 22 imposter chemicals that Glubrahnum posted? But not in the salt variations?


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> Citrate is that like a vitamine C?


No, "citrate" is a salt of the Citric acid.
Vitamine C is the Ascorbic acid and its salts are called "ascorbates".

Both acids are sour.


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> Maybe mehMDMA hides as one of the 22 imposter chemicals...


Maybe.  If I had a dozen of different  preconsumed mehMDMA and a dozen of  preconsumed magic MDMA samples, I could confirm or deny this possibility.



me.and.emma said:


> But not in the salt variations?


Still could  be another salt, especially a salt of some chiral acid, which unbalances the 50/50 enantiomer ratio during salting and crystallization.
Again, I do not have enough preconsumed samples to confirm or deny this.


----------



## indigoaura

I have not read all those citrate reports in full, but it does not sound quite right. Yes, the slower onset seems correct, as well as the less intense "punch." But, I do not get anything remotely psychedelic off the MehDMA. The closest thing I can really come up with to compare MehDMA too is Xanax. I feel relaxed, and basically good. Sitting on the couch is comfortable. But music sounds normal, and the room looks completely normal, and colors are normal, and well, everything is basically fucking normal. It leaves me physically wrecked and hungover, but not depressed. Does not seem to totally align with what people are saying about the citrate.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> I have not read all those citrate reports in full, but it does not sound quite right.


Yes, but the takeway from this is that the salt is capable of changing the drug's effects slightly and it certainly changes the active dose significantly. Thus the public labs should report it.
If the enantiomer ratio becomes unbalanced during crystallization after salting the racemic base with a chiral acid, then the drug's effects and active dose can be altered much more..


----------



## me.and.emma

indigoaura said:


> I have not read all those citrate reports in full, but it does not sound quite right. Yes, the slower onset seems correct, as well as the less intense "punch." But, I do not get anything remotely psychedelic off the MehDMA. The closest thing I can really come up with to compare MehDMA too is Xanax. I feel relaxed, and basically good. Sitting on the couch is comfortable. But music sounds normal, and the room looks completely normal, and colors are normal, and well, everything is basically fucking normal. It leaves me physically wrecked and hungover, but not depressed. Does not seem to totally align with what people are saying about the citrate.



Then I don't have mehmdma but some other sort of bad mdma. the shit stuff I have does not make me feel relaxed or good. Nothing is comfortable, its' agony, one just hope it's finished soon. Plus the awful next day feeling queasy and achy. My bad mdma has stress receptors engaged not sleepy ones.


----------



## indigoaura

> Plus the awful next day feeling queasy and achy.


 I get that 100%.

When you say it is agony, and nothing is comfortable, what do you mean? Can you expand on that more? Do you literally have pain?


----------



## AutoTripper

me.and.emma said:


> Then I don't have mehmdma but some other sort of bad mdma. the shit stuff I have does not make me feel relaxed or good. Nothing is comfortable, its' agony, one just hope it's finished soon. Plus the awful next day feeling queasy and achy. My bad mdma has stress receptors engaged not sleepy ones.


I expect that there my be a wide variation of individual reactions to the questionable MDMA, woth some people more able to enjoy it and feel good, or think they feel good.

And for others the experience may be totally unenjoyable and even miserable. Soyou may both be taking the same product but having different experiences.


----------



## indigoaura

It is a hard experience to explain, honestly. For me, it feels like I am on my way somewhere, so there is always that deceptive belief that something good is around the corner, but I am just not quite there yet. My body does not always feel good. Sometimes, I feel distracted. I have had really bad results with doing it at concerts, and have literally almost fought other people at the concert several times. Sometimes I get hung up with a negative thought loop. If I am at home though, the inclination is to find a blanket and just be very still and non-communicative. People talking to me can be annoying. Music can be annoying, like, I lose interest and wonder what the next distraction will be.


----------



## wenluojia

G_Chem said:


> As someone who’s been in the scene for awhile, I’ve watched the music and vibe go from one of love, hugs and good vibes to greed, hate, aggression, etc..  This isn’t jaded raver talking either, I still fully enjoy music and the scene today and actually prefer lots of the music I find today.  It’s just it seems a negativity has begun to seep into even the relatively underground scene.
> 
> My theory on this is beyond bad MDMA though.  That’s part of it, but I believe (talking conspiracies) that it’s a constructed effort to devalue and delegitimize the rave scene.  Just like the beautiful hippie/classic rock culture was mutilated and destroyed, eventually becoming the hate filled metal scene over time.
> 
> Over the past decade eyes, pyramids, and owls have become symbols that permeate pretty much every single show and festival you can go to.  I’ve always gone to smaller events, but even little festivals (100-3000 ppl sized) are overran with this shit.  Whether you believe in some organization running the world or not, it gets old to constantly be bombarded with this imagery.
> 
> I’ve also caught artists (after using reverse playback) beginning to slip in really demonic phrases that you can only catch if you know what your listening to.  Tracks often have blood curdling screams, terrorizing noises and just all around seem to be designed to induce anxiety in the listener.  These artists also, IMO, are often not that great yet somehow rise fast in the scene and gain huge following.
> 
> Now I understand the difference between inducing anxiety and building hype in a track, the two are different IMO.  The worst part is the same artists always talk love and good vibes but their actions don’t line up at all.
> 
> Also at the bigger festivals these days you’ll find presses and LSD blotter with this same symbolism. So much blotter with all seeing eye and pyramids on them...  (Often they feel different too.  Hard to say with placebo but more hedonistic and less inwardly.)
> 
> There is definitely the possibility of some foul play.  Or coincidentally everyone happens to think this symbolism is “super cool” at the same relative time, and we’re seeing the result of that?
> 
> Weird world we live in..
> 
> -GC



I can't completely agree with that statement, GC. I've been around the scene of electronic music in central Europe for some years now, and there are heaps of great, positive music producers around (Acid Pauli, Heimlich Knüller, and many other German acts, etc.). The usually smaller electronic festivals I go to are fantastic, the ambiance and mood is great, the people are wonderful. It is a great scene all around.  Regarding the pyramids, one of the best blotters going around these days features these symbols, and it's some of of the best acid on the market you can find. While I find these thoughts interesting, others in other posts too, I find that they steer too much towards the realm of conspiracy theory.



Glubrahnum said:


> Any lab can determine the salt type easily - they just do not seem to care about it....nor do the public labs report it.
> Hell, anyone could do some high-school chemistry in their kitchen and determine the salt type, if they put their mind to it.
> 
> BTW: I've mentioned the citrate only because it was the farthest away from the hydrochloride.  Personally, I have encountered the tartrate recently.



Actually, if you check ecstasydata.org, there are many, many results from Switzerland. There are two public labs which do „High Performance Liquid Chromatography“, and if you look at the results over the last years (click on the PDF), they always list the salt, too. It is always *HCl, I haven't seen anything else yet.


----------



## Glubrahnum

I haven't seen that but it is a move in the right direction,  The Swiss are known for doing things well. I noticed that they have detected the unknown *N-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxy Benzylamide*.
I hope the hydrochloride is not an assumption.


----------



## Phobos

Glubrahnum said:


> I haven't seen that but it is a move in the right direction,  The Swiss are known for doing things well. I noticed that they have detected the unknown *N-methyl-3,4- methylenedioxy Benzylamide*.
> I hope the hydrochloride is not an assumption.



Is that more likely to be an intermediate or the result of an impure precursor?


----------



## Glubrahnum

Phobos said:


> Is that more likely to be an intermediate or the result of an impure precursor?


More of an intermediate of the synth


----------



## BlueBull

wenluojia said:


> I can't completely agree with that statement, GC. I've been around the scene of electronic music in central Europe for some years now, and there are heaps of great, positive music producers around (Acid Pauli, Heimlich Knüller, and many other German acts, etc.). The usually smaller electronic festivals I go to are fantastic, the ambiance and mood is great, the people are wonderful. It is a great scene all around


I can confirm this for France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg as well. The rave scene is still alive and loving. As you say though, you have to stick to the smaller festivals

However, I think this amazing atmosphere is more due to the general vibe of the crowd and the kinds of people at these kinds of events and less with the quality of the drugs. I have not noticed the hostile, egocentric effect this 'bad' MDMA has on crowds as described in some posts in here but I have noticed a sharp decline in the intensity of empathogenic and 'loved up' effects the MDMA has these days. And at the festivals I attend that is canceled out to some degree by the positive vibe this kind of crowd naturally has, they do not need much chemical assistance to act extremely empathic and loving, but the difference in effects is noticeable even there nevertheless, though much less than at more mainstream events. I have been taking MDMA for around 19 years now so I can compare a bit.

I have debated for years _against_ the supposed differences between old and more recent MDMA because I have seriously abused the drug for years in a row and I assumed it must be that I ruined the drug for myself because of this abuse. That is until a few years ago I ran into some unknown random pills that completely changed my perspective on that. It was like it was a different drug altogether, exactly how I remembered my earlier rolls. These pills were tested with 3 different reagents, not lab tested so I'm not absolutely sure that they contained only MDMA, only that they did contain MDMA and maybe nothing else. After my first experience with them I went back to the dealer because I only bought 3 and had given 2 to mates that night. I asked to buy his entire supply (he only had 30 left), he refused and said these pills were the best he's had in years and years and that he was keeping them. I offered him double the going rate, refused, triple, refused. I went all the way up to ten times (!!!) the going rate and he refused and said he would not accept any offer. This guy had been selling for years and was in it for the money. That right there told me I was right about these pills and that there was something to this debate after all

I have made a report about them which I will link below. However, *disclaimer* this was years ago, don't go looking for these pills because by now if you happen to run into ones that looks like that it's almost 100% certain not the same ones
Report


----------



## epic11

BlueBull said:


> I can confirm this for France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg as well. The rave scene is still alive and loving. As you say though, you have to stick to the smaller festivals
> 
> However, I think this amazing atmosphere is more due to the general vibe of the crowd and the kinds of people at these kinds of events and less with the quality of the drugs. I have not noticed the hostile, egocentric effect this 'bad' MDMA has on crowds as described in some posts in here but I have noticed a sharp decline in the intensity of empathogenic and 'loved up' effects the MDMA has these days. And at the festivals I attend that is canceled out to some degree by the positive vibe this kind of crowd naturally has, they do not need much chemical assistance to act extremely empathic and loving, but the difference in effects is noticeable even there nevertheless, though much less than at more mainstream events. I have been taking MDMA for around 19 years now so I can compare a bit.
> 
> I have debated for years _against_ the supposed differences between old and more recent MDMA because I have seriously abused the drug for years in a row and I assumed it must be that I ruined the drug for myself because of this abuse. That is until a few years ago I ran into some unknown random pills that completely changed my perspective on that. It was like it was a different drug altogether, exactly how I remembered my earlier rolls. These pills were tested with 3 different reagents, not lab tested so I'm not absolutely sure that they contained only MDMA, only that they did contain MDMA and maybe nothing else. After my first experience with them I went back to the dealer because I only bought 3 and had given 2 to mates that night. I asked to buy his entire supply (he only had 30 left), he refused and said these pills were the best he's had in years and years and that he was keeping them. I offered him double the going rate, refused, triple, refused. I went all the way up to ten times (!!!) the going rate and he refused and said he would not accept any offer. This guy had been selling for years and was in it for the money. That right there told me I was right about these pills and that there was something to this debate after all
> 
> I have made a report about them which I will link below. However, *disclaimer* this was years ago, don't go looking for these pills because by now if you happen to run into ones that looks like that it's almost 100% certain not the same ones
> Report



Nice report, i like how you leave a little note about how the dutch stuff makes you feel vs this specifically. Nice pills.


----------



## epic11

I potentially have found a few batches of md that will interest us/this thread.

One claims "just like the 2000's, old school sass"

And another one straight up says "Made from saffrole, smells like aniseed strongly" or something of that regard. If i end up with some of this, i may have to experiment for science.


----------



## Glubrahnum

epic11 said:


> If i end up with some of this, i may have to experiment for science.


An experiment on virgin users or long-time abstinents would yield data, that could not be dismisses off-hand on the basis of tolerance buildup.

You'd have to sit in on this.  If you do, please limit the dose to 1.5mg/kg of body weight on an empty stomach and dissolve it in orange juce for consumption (to eliminate the crystalline polymorph variance).  Note the come up time and duration and severity of comedown.

Please pay attention to pupils (mydriasis), jaw (trismus) and heart rate (pulse) ...besides the psychoactive effects, of course.

Don't let them overheat or drink huge amounts of pure water...but I guess, you already know that.


----------



## epic11

Glubrahnum said:


> An experiment on virgin users or long-time abstinents would yield data, that could not be dismisses off-hand on the basis of tolerance buildup.
> 
> You'd have to sit in on this.  If you do, please limit the dose to 1.5mg/kg of body weight on an empty stomach and dissolve it in orange juce for consumption (to eliminate the crystalline polymorph variance).  Note the come up time and duration and severity of comedown.
> 
> Please pay attention to pupils (mydriasis), jaw (trismus) and heart rate (pulse) ...besides the psychoactive effects, of course.
> 
> Don't let them overheat or drink huge amounts of pure water...but I guess, you already know that.



I myself am about 3 months off currently, with both rolls prior having a 1 year and a 6+ month wait times. If i were to try it soon, it would be the shortest wait in a long time. I was curious about some other reads here about the 3 month rule I believe @G_Chem brought this up recently. Waiting 1+ years or 6+ months didnt help prior rolls to be any better(maybe mehdma?), so i was gonna try shortening it to the more standard wait time of 3 months. I dont abuse this drug, and its why im ultra concerned about whats going on. with it. Its way too precious of an experience to not fight for.

Now speaking of virgin users, id like to re-iterate that ive watched virgin users take todays mdma with very lackluster effect. Dont really look that fuck up, not proclaiming love for the person that gave it to them, no music appreciation increase, honestly look bored....... those sorts of things. Just blah. When its good, i doubt anyone could be bored on mdma. lol


----------



## me.and.emma

indigoaura said:


> I get that 100%.
> 
> When you say it is agony, and nothing is comfortable, what do you mean? Can you expand on that more? Do you literally have pain?



these pills and also powder could be called antimdma instead of mehmdma then, since it has literally the opposite effect of what real mdma feels like
yes agony. 
-All the muscles in the body and face are hurting from tension. 
-there is a headache across the eyes. 
-uncomfortable body heat
-no energy, just want to sit
-no feeling for music (I tried dancing but I could find any rhythm in the music)
-no socializing, talking is an effort and not desired 
-feeling anxious, stressed, scared
-dizzy feeling in head, also when I tried walking I felt very dizzy/ disorientated
-brain feels foggy.

basically this feels like a super toxic something. nothing pleasant at all about it. 


I have seen other people I know on festivals/parties that used the same stuff.
They basically sat on the ground in some sort of stupor, moving their heads around in a weird way.
When I talked to them, they kept on repeating the stuff is so strong, but with a terrified face. 
The come down they described as terrible: puking, bowl issues, nightmares, brain zaps, general malaise, lasting like a week.

this antimdma I have encountered numerous times.
but I learned to taste test it from the good stuff.
recently only I have had the luck of finding very good magicmdma pills (green rolls royce) and some lesser pills. 
I was nearly at the point of throwing in the towel, giving this whole thing up.


----------



## epic11

me.and.emma said:


> these pills and also powder could be called antimdma instead of mehmdma then, since it has literally the opposite effect of what real mdma feels like
> yes agony.
> -All the muscles in the body and face are hurting from tension.
> -there is a headache across the eyes.
> -uncomfortable body heat
> -no energy, just want to sit
> -no feeling for music (I tried dancing but I could find any rhythm in the music)
> -no socializing, talking is an effort and not desired
> -feeling anxious, stressed, scared
> -dizzy feeling in head, also when I tried walking I felt very dizzy/ disorientated
> -brain feels foggy.
> 
> basically this feels like a super toxic something. nothing pleasant at all about it.
> 
> 
> I have seen other people I know on festivals/parties that used the same stuff.
> They basically sat on the ground in some sort of stupor, moving their heads around in a weird way.
> When I talked to them, they kept on repeating the stuff is so strong, but with a terrified face.
> The come down they described as terrible: puking, bowl issues, nightmares, brain zaps, general malaise, lasting like a week.
> 
> this antimdma I have encountered numerous times.
> but I learned to taste test it from the good stuff.
> recently only I have had the luck of finding very good magicmdma pills (green rolls royce) and some lesser pills.
> I was nearly at the point of throwing in the towel, giving this whole thing up.




The physical pain parts are making me think you dont even have mdma at all. You tested this with your own kit?


----------



## me.and.emma

BlueBull said:


> I can confirm this for France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg as well. The rave scene is still alive and loving. As you say though, you have to stick to the smaller festivals
> 
> However, I think this amazing atmosphere is more due to the general vibe of the crowd and the kinds of people at these kinds of events and less with the quality of the drugs. I have not noticed the hostile, egocentric effect this 'bad' MDMA has on crowds as described in some posts in here but I have noticed a sharp decline in the intensity of empathogenic and 'loved up' effects the MDMA has these days. And at the festivals I attend that is canceled out to some degree by the positive vibe this kind of crowd naturally has, they do not need much chemical assistance to act extremely empathic and loving, but the difference in effects is noticeable even there nevertheless, though much less than at more mainstream events. I have been taking MDMA for around 19 years now so I can compare a bit.
> 
> I have debated for years _against_ the supposed differences between old and more recent MDMA because I have seriously abused the drug for years in a row and I assumed it must be that I ruined the drug for myself because of this abuse. That is until a few years ago I ran into some unknown random pills that completely changed my perspective on that. It was like it was a different drug altogether, exactly how I remembered my earlier rolls. These pills were tested with 3 different reagents, not lab tested so I'm not absolutely sure that they contained only MDMA, only that they did contain MDMA and maybe nothing else. After my first experience with them I went back to the dealer because I only bought 3 and had given 2 to mates that night. I asked to buy his entire supply (he only had 30 left), he refused and said these pills were the best he's had in years and years and that he was keeping them. I offered him double the going rate, refused, triple, refused. I went all the way up to ten times (!!!) the going rate and he refused and said he would not accept any offer. This guy had been selling for years and was in it for the money. That right there told me I was right about these pills and that there was something to this debate after all
> 
> I have made a report about them which I will link below. However, *disclaimer* this was years ago, don't go looking for these pills because by now if you happen to run into ones that looks like that it's almost 100% certain not the same ones
> Report



very nice report!!!
I have experienced exactly the same as you described. I have found some very nice pills a few weeks ago. Almost lost hope about it being possible.
I love the way you say that they don't influence you physically. Yes yes yes good mdma has hardly any body load and your mind is clear and you in heaven. I know exactly what you talking about.
And also that those good ones are never high dosed like over 200 mgs. I go rolling heavenly on 100 mg on real mdma.
And I am so happy you could experience this again!


----------



## me.and.emma

epic11 said:


> The physical parts are making me think you dont even have mdma at all. You tested this with your own kit?



yes it has been tested at the centre and came back as mdma. I don't have my own kit. it feels exactly like a completely different drug.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> And another one straight up says "Made from saffrole, smells like aniseed strongly"


Hehe, you've just put an image into my odd imagination- I'm wondering when I will look at ecstasydata and see- MDMA: 1 Ground Fennel powder : 0.5.


----------



## me.and.emma

AutoTripper said:


> Hehe, you've just put an image into my odd imagination- I'm wondering when I will look at ecstasydata and see- MDMA: 1 Ground Fennel powder : 0.5.



??


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Hehe, you've just put an image into my odd imagination- I'm wondering when I will look at ecstasydata and see- MDMA: 1 Ground Fennel powder : 0.5.



Yo dont give em any ideas man. lmao.


----------



## epic11

me.and.emma said:


> yes it has been tested at the centre and came back as mdma. I don't have my own kit. it feels exactly like a completely different drug.



Yea most everything else sounds like mehdma. Ive just not experienced actual pain from it. So i found that interesting.


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> -All the muscles in the body and face are hurting from tension.
> -there is a headache across the eyes.
> -uncomfortable body heat
> -no energy, just want to sit
> -no feeling for music (I tried dancing but I could find any rhythm in the music)
> -no socializing, talking is an effort and not desired
> -feeling anxious, stressed, scared
> -dizzy feeling in head, also when I tried walking I felt very dizzy/ disorientated
> -brain feels foggy.
> 
> basically this feels like a super toxic something. nothing pleasant at all about it.


I would love to develop a cheap reliable test for this crap!   ...and watch its producers squirm as they are suddenly stuck with a large stock that nobody wants to buy.


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> I would love to develop a cheap reliable test for this crap!   ...and watch the producers of this s**t squirm as they are suddenly stuck with a large stock that nobody wants to buy.


 
that would be indeed so incredibly amazing. I have a good feeling you will get there eventually.


----------



## epic11

Glubrahnum said:


> I would love to develop a cheap reliable test for this crap!   ...and watch its producers squirm as they are suddenly stuck with a large stock that nobody wants to buy.



Assuming your passion behind this, you must be experiencing the same as a lot of us.


----------



## indigoaura

@me.and.emma, I copied your words below, and added my notes. Everything bold has been my experience as well. 

-All the muscles in the body and face are hurting from tension. *(This is not something I have experienced during the "roll," but I may have had muscle pain during the comedown)*
-there is a headache across the eyes.* (Next day, not during for me)*
-uncomfortable body heat *(For me, I am uncomfortably cold, but I am also usually at home with the AC cranked up)
-no energy, just want to sit
-no feeling for music
-no socializing, talking is an effort and not desired
-feeling anxious, stressed,* scared *(This is more potent for me if I am out in public. At concerts, I want to fight people, want people to stop talking, wonder if there will be a mass shooting, want to go home etc. If I am already at home, it is not as prominent. At home, it is more a potent LACK of any typical MDMA satisfaction).*
-dizzy feeling in head, also when I tried walking I felt very dizzy/ disorientated *(Hard to say here. There is a "swimmy" element during the roll, but I am hella dizzy for up to a week afterwards)*
-brain feels foggy.
*-The come down they described as terrible: puking, bowl issues, nightmares, brain zaps, general malaise, lasting like a week.*

In this situation, I think your more extreme response could be dose related. How many mg are you typically taking?


----------



## Glubrahnum

epic11 said:


> Assuming your passion behind this, you must be experiencing the same as a lot of us.


Although, I have not used it for over fifteen years, it annoys me to see this inferior product going around with impunity, the increased doses causing more deadly cases, while working in a lab full of analytical equipment every day.



See:
*Ecstasy 'too child-friendly' as deaths rise to record levels*

*P.S.*
Also, take a look at the huge *LTC thread* on this forum now and 10 years ago !


----------



## me.and.emma

indigoaura said:


> @me.and.emma, I copied your words below, and added my notes. Everything bold has been my experience as well.
> 
> -All the muscles in the body and face are hurting from tension. *(This is not something I have experienced during the "roll," but I may have had muscle pain during the comedown)*
> -there is a headache across the eyes.* (Next day, not during for me)*
> -uncomfortable body heat *(For me, I am uncomfortably cold, but I am also usually at home with the AC cranked up)
> -no energy, just want to sit
> -no feeling for music
> -no socializing, talking is an effort and not desired
> -feeling anxious, stressed,* scared *(This is more potent for me if I am out in public. At concerts, I want to fight people, want people to stop talking, wonder if there will be a mass shooting, want to go home etc. If I am already at home, it is not as prominent. At home, it is more a potent LACK of any typical MDMA satisfaction).*
> -dizzy feeling in head, also when I tried walking I felt very dizzy/ disorientated *(Hard to say here. There is a "swimmy" element during the roll, but I am hella dizzy for up to a week afterwards)*
> -brain feels foggy.
> *-The come down they described as terrible: puking, bowl issues, nightmares, brain zaps, general malaise, lasting like a week.*
> 
> In this situation, I think your more extreme response could be dose related. How many mg are you typically taking?



I personally think you don't have as bad stuff as this. It's still not right what you have of course and no where near where it should be.
Swimmy is a better word, like you have vertigo. That would describe it better. But then very swimmy on this stuff.

As I am re-reading and typing I actually get a real creepy feeling, totally the opposite to what people get when they remember a good roll.
I took in total 140 mg, but that was because it did nothing at 50mg, nothing 90, no gradual smooth take-off like was described by Bluebull, but suddenly with larger dose bam this big nasty slap of a come-up . I am very responsive and on real mdma I get pupil dilation and warm fluffy everything is good feeling on 50mg already.

the other people I know had higher doses. between the 4 of them they finished a gram in no time.


----------



## indigoaura

So, new approach maybe...?

Look for pills that have been tested already that are a low weight, with MDMA only as the result, and the smallest difference between the overall weight and the amount of MDMA. IE, there should not be 200 mg unaccounted for.


----------



## crazyhairman

Fake it till you make it I think the year that I started experimenting with in ecstasy was 2007 in this country that was arguably one of the worst years for quality MDMA. I guess that's what happens after 30 years of locking up the best chemist and the most successful trafficking organizations for MDMA. You see a lot more synthetics the facts are it's never going to be as good as it used to be that's just the evolution of drug policy like what happened to all my good quality LSD it's still out there but odds are I'm going to get some research chemical 7 out of 10 times I don't know what to tell you sorry my generation goofed it all up


----------



## indigoaura

Just found this:








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #1352 - Air Force One, 1352
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




So, that is the same press as the pills I referred to as "Stunners" in my log. The 1 with the three stars over it. I am pretty convinced Pink references the same pill when she says, "License plate says stunner, #1, superstar!" in her song "I'm Coming Up." The pills circulated my area with all three of those names (stunner, #1, superstar). The ones I had were pink, and they were the best pills. Consistent every time. I notice the total weight here is just 231 mg. Such a huuuuge difference from the weights going on today.


----------



## G_Chem

^^Looks ghetto as shit, but that’s kinda just how presses used to look I suppose lol.

Unfortunately though with inactive filler varying so much it’s hard to guess how much was in those.  That said I remember average pills weighing around that back then.  These days your average pill is a whopping .5g usually..

-GC


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Just found this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #1352 - Air Force One, 1352
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, that is the same press as the pills I referred to as "Stunners" in my log. The 1 with the three stars over it. I am pretty convinced Pink references the same pill when she says, "License plate says stunner, #1, superstar!" in her song "I'm Coming Up." The pills circulated my area with all three of those names (stunner, #1, superstar). The ones I had were pink, and they were the best pills. Consistent every time. I notice the total weight here is just 231 mg. Such a huuuuge difference from the weights going on today.



pretty


----------



## epic11

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #3134 - White Skull Candy, 3134
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




These were hard little smackers in their day. report says 2014, but these were more circulating in 2011/12

12:1 mdma to filler. with a little synth byproduct it seems. These were strong af.


----------



## G_Chem

^^That submission is interesting because it contains the same impurity indigoaura had reported when sent in some loose MDMA powder.  Although that’s a 12 to 1 ratio, whereas hers was like 5 to 1 or 6 to 1.

That right there may show how purity is the biggest factor.  Or the chemists got sloppy as time went on withbthat particular press.. (Both are equally feasible.)

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Do any of you guys remember pink calis around 1999? Small circular pink pills with no stamp. Quite crumbly and trippy as fuck. Like a cross between psilocybin and MDMA. One of my most fondly remembered pills.


----------



## epic11

G_Chem said:


> ^^That submission is interesting because it contains the same impurity indigoaura had reported when sent in some loose MDMA powder.  Although that’s a 12 to 1 ratio, whereas hers was like 5 to 1 or 6 to 1.
> 
> That right there may show how purity is the biggest factor.  Or the chemists got sloppy as time went on withbthat particular press.. (Both are equally feasible.)
> 
> -GC



They made these in blue and white. Interesting enough mine were a mix of both. Mostly white with a blue hue to it. I feel like i got the tail end of the batch, and it wasnt very strong. But these pure white ones were.


----------



## me.and.emma

indigoaura said:


> So, new approach maybe...?
> 
> Look for pills that have been tested already that are a low weight, with MDMA only as the result, and the smallest difference between the overall weight and the amount of MDMA. IE, there should not be 200 mg unaccounted for.



that will be my strategy for sure.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Look for pills that have been tested already that are a low weight, with MDMA only as the result, and the smallest difference between the overall weight and the amount of MDMA. IE, there should not be 200 mg unaccounted for.


...which means a low *amount* of contaminants.  If I were you, I would opt for a low percentage of contaminants instead.

According to the Swiss, the percentage of contaminants in crystal MDMA was the highest between 2013 and 2014, but has been pretty low in recent years.  So now we have a purer drug that requires 2x higher doses.  Isn't that a paradox?



Take a look at 2010 - the crystal MDMA percentage is the highest, the contaminant percentage is 0% ...so what is the remaining 6.8% ? Inert substances that are not considered contaminants?  I don't think 6.8% of binder will hold a pill together mechanically.

P.S.
A percentage of MDMA base molecules, that is higher than 84.1% is impossible in MDMA hydrochloride due to stoichiometry, so these numbers must be relative to the hydrochloride salt.


----------



## Glubrahnum

When exactly has the crystal MehMDMA started to appear?


----------



## AutoTripper

Glubrahnum said:


> When exactly has the MehMDMA started to appear?


Right before I stopped my MDMA use in 2005, there was a particular batch of pills which sound very much like Mehdma.

They were called- Mickey Mouse. White, smooth, solid, well made, scored, smallish and slightly domed.
It was a fitting name because they just weren't right and they struck me as being imitators or Mickey takers you could say.

They just came with so much less of the up particularly the euphoria musical appreciation and willingness to dance but they also came with more of the downside with a particularly harsher come down and general negative feeling.

At the exact same time I was taking absolutely fire MDMA pills and having the best effects and experiences so this was nothing to do with tolerance or magic but these Mickey Mouse pills just were not right and I never enjoyed them in anyway and would never see them out if that was all there was I would just have given up.

I believe that could have been Mehdma, aa early as late 2004 in fact they appeared.


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> ^^Looks ghetto as shit, but that’s kinda just how presses used to look I suppose lol.
> 
> Unfortunately though with inactive filler varying so much it’s hard to guess how much was in those.  That said I remember average pills weighing around that back then.  These days your average pill is a whopping .5g usually..
> 
> -GC


I was gonna say that No.1 looks like a very nice e, it brings back memories. Looks crumbly. Some just were, no way inferior to the hard, well made presses.

On the weights, it seems the ratios are still pretty in line. Twice as heavy pills, with generally twice as much MDMA in them, aside from all the arguments and suspicions about the actual drug.  

It would be interesting if I could locate a load of reports on those white Mickey Mouses in 2005, and compare them to the other really high quality pills it will going around at the same time  I almost swear they were Mehdma.

Edit- recent one here, that is more like it:








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7761 - Kein Logo, 7761 (m)
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




153 mg MDMA in a 221mg tablet.

Edit 2- not a single Mickey Mouse pill on ecstadata, actually containing MDMA. None matching my ones from that time anyway.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> As someone who’s been in the scene for awhile, I’ve watched the music and vibe go from one of love, hugs and good vibes to greed, hate, aggression, etc..  This isn’t jaded raver talking either, I still fully enjoy music and the scene today and actually prefer lots of the music I find today.  It’s just it seems a negativity has begun to seep into even the relatively underground scene.
> 
> My theory on this is beyond bad MDMA though.  That’s part of it, but I believe (talking conspiracies) that it’s a constructed effort to devalue and delegitimize the rave scene.  Just like the beautiful hippie/classic rock culture was mutilated and destroyed, eventually becoming the hate filled metal scene over time.
> 
> Over the past decade eyes, pyramids, and owls have become symbols that permeate pretty much every single show and festival you can go to.  I’ve always gone to smaller events, but even little festivals (100-3000 ppl sized) are overran with this shit.  Whether you believe in some organization running the world or not, it gets old to constantly be bombarded with this imagery.
> 
> I’ve also caught artists (after using reverse playback) beginning to slip in really demonic phrases that you can only catch if you know what your listening to.  Tracks often have blood curdling screams, terrorizing noises and just all around seem to be designed to induce anxiety in the listener.  These artists also, IMO, are often not that great yet somehow rise fast in the scene and gain huge following.
> 
> Now I understand the difference between inducing anxiety and building hype in a track, the two are different IMO.  The worst part is the same artists always talk love and good vibes but their actions don’t line up at all.
> 
> Also at the bigger festivals these days you’ll find presses and LSD blotter with this same symbolism. So much blotter with all seeing eye and pyramids on them...  (Often they feel different too.  Hard to say with placebo but more hedonistic and less inwardly.)
> 
> There is definitely the possibility of some foul play.  Or coincidentally everyone happens to think this symbolism is “super cool” at the same relative time, and we’re seeing the result of that?
> 
> Weird world we live in..
> 
> -GC


those pyramid blotters are voids made by evil south american lsd crystal laid by the mafia in europe it radiates pure fucking evil vibes when i touch that nasty dn shit that flooded the world. Every time i take that blotter its extremly satanic and not at all for the raising of consciousness. yet all the dumb kids praise it while true acid heads know it radiates pure evil and is a dark smudge on the scene saldy the brotherhood of eternal love isn't around anymore to wack the people pushing the mass produced evil no soul acid. 

the same people behind the evil vibe acid are also the ones pushing all the md on the dn the eastern european mafias. Its all tainted with death blood and nasty vibes. Psychedelic and emphatogen drugs aint just about the chemistry its about the spiritual energy of the chemists making these substances as more and more immoral people took over the md production scene more of it lost it love. The magic love mdma comes from true holy men chemists who make it for the magic of mdma aswell.


----------



## Phobos

Why would evil people focus on the DN business exclusively?
I would think that what you find there is just as likely to be contaminated or fake as any real world product.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Phobos said:


> Why would evil people focus on the DN business exclusively?
> I would think that what you find there is just as likely to be contaminated or fake as any real world product.


Easy money and mass customers these huge crimminal gangs have access to alot of precursors in very poor eastern europe countries  including the monopoly on ergot so the just mass produce for teens and adults that don't have good connections irl and soak up hundreds of millions to billions of dollars. They are also involved on the ground. Real medium small time hobby chemists supplying the market with md and acid dont go on the darknet they do it for their local area usually through the universities


----------



## Phobos

I'm afraid that there is no hobby chemists anymore except for the ones producing for themselves.
And if you sell, you are a pro and not an hobbyist by definition.

All MDMA in EU is made large scale and a lot of it in the Netherlands.
Distribution through universities has not been significant lately, it is my experience that 14 year olds have no trouble procuring drugs IRL.
Please consider how PMA and PMMA where killing people before the DNMs existed.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Phobos said:


> I'm afraid that there is no hobby chemists anymore except for the ones producing for themselves.
> And if you sell, you are a pro and not an hobbyist by definition.
> 
> All MDMA in EU is made large scale and a lot of it in the Netherlands.
> Distribution through universities has not been significant lately, it is my experience that 14 year olds have no trouble procuring drugs IRL.
> Please consider how PMA and PMMA where killing people before the DNMs existed.


There are still plenty of small time chemists graudating from college in other parts of the world and making small to medium scale batches to pay of their student loans.  More true for graduate chemists who make a few grams of lsd as their right of passage during their phd. The best LSD always seem to be floating around universities or older folk. 14 year olds procure drugs from college students most of the time that would of gone to to their local high school

Im just saying the DNM is for mass production product and is no where as good as a proper rl connection. The mafias have control on most mdma production in europe they are bank rolling the tons of precousers from poland and eastern europe into the netherlands for production hub and the port of rotterdam. Also the lax laws in the netherlands means those getting caught making drugs spend very little time in prision making the reward to risk ratio amazing


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> When exactly has the MehMDMA started to appear?
> [/QUOTE
> 
> I encountered at first bad mdma in september 2009. in winter 2012 the first good pills appeared again (white mitsubishis, hello kitties, pacman ghosts to name few). so there was an issue for about 3 years, where one could only get crap and also pills that had almost no mdma in it. Spring/Summer 2015 problem was again till to this day but then with super dosed pills.


----------



## Glubrahnum

me.and.emma said:


> I encountered at first bad mdma in september 2009.


That was the time of the plague when Ecstasy tablets were laced with piperazines (e.g. mCPP).

I meant to ask about the first appearance of *crystalline* MDMA powder, that required high doses, did not cause Mydriasis reliably and did not generate the typical psychoactive effects.


----------



## epic11

Glubrahnum said:


> That was the time of the plague when Ecstasy tablets laced with piperazines (e.g. mCPP).
> 
> I meant to ask about the first appearance of *crystalline* MDMA powder, that required high doses, did not cause Mydriasis reliably and did not generate the typical psychoactive effects.



On a bigger scale, im gonna say around 2016 mid to late 2016 this became more apparent to me.


----------



## me.and.emma

Glubrahnum said:


> That was the time of the plague when Ecstasy tablets were laced with piperazines (e.g. mCPP).
> 
> I meant to ask about the first appearance of *crystalline* MDMA powder, that required high doses, did not cause Mydriasis reliably and did not generate the typical psychoactive effects.



yes also the powder. I always buy both. And it was actual powder the first time I encountered this problem. I then tried the pills and they were the same rubbish. The same counts for that later period.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

I’ve read this whole thread, and like most of us here I’m very frustrated over that we’re not really getting to any real conclusion. My guess is that the MehMDMA is one of the direct or indirect regioisomers of 3,4-MDMA which can’t be detected by usual GC/MC - maybe the MehMDMA even can be synthesized without PMK? I’m thinking that some chemist must have started off thinking how s/he can make something that could be sold as MDMA and that will look like MDMA on GC/MC. I don’t believe in the byproduct hypothesis as I imagine byproducts are too easy to get rid of – and I assume producers want to sell a good product if they can. So why wouldn’t they first clean their product? I also think it is a clue that I don't get any synergy between MehMDMA and 2C-B (plenty of reports of failed Nexus-flips can be found), so the MehMDMA surely binds to different receptors.

I really think it is in the interest of public health that we find out what it really is in the purported MDMA (the MehMDMA), but it seems some serious chemistry knowledge and high end lab equipment is required. Could anyone try to get David E. Nichols interested enough to come out of retirement in order to solve this? Or suggest to Hamilton Morris how uncovering the truth behind the MehMDMA would make a really great new episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopeia? Or does anyone have any better ideas how to get closer to the truth?

Until we know more, I just want to urge everyone to try to spread the knowledge in this thread to as many as possible. If more people could learn to distinguish between real MDMA and MehMDMA, market forces should start to work in favor of real MDMA. Just to get more people to realize that most, if not all, of today's very high dose pills probably don’t contain real MDMA – even if all tests say they do. We need a pill report page which focuses on the differences between MehMDMA and MDMA.


----------



## me.and.emma

gets mentioned here that crystal mdma get found with a lot of adulterants.











						Always practise safe sesh #1. Ecstasy
					

A series of short films offering realistic and practical harm reduction advice for all of the UK's favourite drugs. We begin on the #1 substance for the Brits - Ecstasy.




					video.vice.com


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Well from my perspective at the moment, the answer to the original question is "nothing..." ?


----------



## Goodwalt

I think our best bet is to contact the swiss labs. They seem the most interested from the ones which are performing tests around the world. Right?


----------



## Glubrahnum

PsychedelicSummer said:


> I’ve read this whole thread, and like most of us here I’m very frustrated over that we’re not really getting to any real conclusion.


Yes and the real reason for the lack of progress is the law.  If I could just publish my address and write "C'mon send me a 10mg crumb of your pre-tried Ectasy with an in-vivo experience report", we would have it solved a long time ago.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> My guess is that the MehMDMA is one of the direct or indirect regioisomers of 3,4-MDMA which can’t be detected by usual GC/MC


Only cheap GC columns can have the same elution times for these substances.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> maybe the MehMDMA even can be synthesized without PMK?


Of course it can be, but how does that help us solve this mystery ?



PsychedelicSummer said:


> I’m thinking that some chemist must have started off thinking how s/he can make something that could be sold as MDMA and that will look like MDMA on GC/MC.


It is really easy to fool MS with isobaric substances, but a modern and diligently made analysis with a combination of GC and MS or HPLC/MS should be able to resolve these substances ...especially with derivatization of the sample.

On the  other hand, most of these analysis techniques do *not* determine the enantiomer ratio.
...and that ratio matters - take a look at the *initial investigation* of MDMA and pay attention to the section "QUALITATIVE COMMENTS", especially to the entries about the "S isomer" and "R isomer".



PsychedelicSummer said:


> I don’t believe in the byproduct hypothesis as I imagine byproducts are too easy to get rid of – and I assume producers want to sell a good product if they can.


It does not have to be so if the solubility of the contaminant is very similar to the solubility of the product.

Also, if the precursor is contaminated with a very potent contaminant (think as potent as carfentanil) that has similar solubility and survives the synth, then it would be very hard to detect it.
Hypothetically, if I added a 100ng carfentanil to a 120mg recreational dose of 3,4-MDMA HCl, then even my best machine at work (HPLC with Raman detector) would not be able to detect it, because its tiny peak would be buried in the noise.

Now, I am not stating that the MehMDMA is contaminated with carfentanil - I am just using it as an example of a very potent contaminant.  More likely, it would be something like a potent analogue of Citalopram.

To explore that, all the known active ingredients would have to be *removed* via preparative HPLC and the remaining contaminants concentrated ...and then detected.  A large sample would be needed for that.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> So why wouldn’t they first clean their product?


Solvents cost money. Their procurement increases the chances of detection for the clandestine chemist. Recrystallization and fractional distillation cost time.  Preparative column chromatography - even more.

Also, there have been people on this thread that have done the usually effective A/B extraction and purification of the MehMDMA but the improvement was not great.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> I also think it is a clue that I don't get any synergy between MehMDMA and 2C-B (plenty of reports of failed Nexus-flips can be found), so the MehMDMA surely binds to different receptors.


That is a good clue.  Investigate it further.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> I really think it is in the interest of public health that we find out what it really is in the purported MDMA (the MehMDMA), but it seems some serious chemistry knowledge and high end lab equipment is required.


Yes, and many lives would be saved.  These >200mg doses are dangerous with hypertermia in hot clubs and at summer festivals.





Also, look how many cases of bad LTC are in the "LTC thread" on this forum, lately.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> Could anyone try to get David E. Nichols interested enough to come out of retirement in order to solve this? Or suggest to Hamilton Morris how uncovering the truth behind the MehMDMA would make a really great new episode of Hamilton's Pharmacopeia?


I suspect that these people get inundated with messages from crackpots (and "wacky people" in Hamilton's words) so you'd have to present pretty solid data that the problems exists at all, to get through the noise.  Even people like F.U.B.A.R. obtain satisfactory MDMA from their sources nowadays, so the problem does not even exist from their point of view ...until they encounter it themselves.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> Or does anyone have any better ideas how to get closer to the truth?


How about making a formal survey so a 4th line can be added to that *Swiss graph* - a line that would illustrate the rating of psychoactive experiences evolution over time ...and maybe even a 5th line for physiological experiences, too.

I asked a related question *here* but received only 2 replies.

If there are some dedicated people out there, they could have their blood tested for Oxytocin levels 1h before and 2h after ingestion of the the MehMDMA, to provide hard proof for people like Nichols and Hamilton, that there is indeed something wrong.  In my area that blood test costs the equivalent of $40.


----------



## me.and.emma

@Glubrahnum "Yes and the real reason for the lack of progress is the law. If I could just publish my address and write "C'mon send me a 10mg crumb of your pre-tried Ectasy with an in-vivo experience report", we would have it solved a long time ago."

Yes!! I would have a whole array of different versions of magic to meh to bad to send to you. And would love to see what your test results would come up with. stupid evil system


----------



## Glubrahnum

Goodwalt said:


> I think our best bet is to contact the swiss labs. They seem the most interested from the ones which are performing tests around the world. Right?


Do you speak German to do it effectively ?

P.S.
One good guy is already trying that.


----------



## AutoTripper

Glubrahnum said:


> I asked a related question *here* but received only 2 replies.


Yeah sorry, I too missed the "crystal" part and recounted the Mickey Mouses arriving on scene. I did try.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Another novel route is dutch labs starting with helional Cas number 1205-17-0  around with the surge in people reporting mehmdma. Maybe this very unknown precouser could a be a source of the trash stuff.


----------



## Glubrahnum

TripSitterNZ said:


> Another novel route is dutch labs starting with helional Cas number 1205-17-0  around with the surge in people reporting mehmdma. Maybe this very unknown precouser could a be a source of the trash stuff.


There is nothing wrong with this precursor but some reductive amination synth procedures that are used with it could generate specific potent synth byproducts (contaminants).

Also, Helional is a chiral molecule, so non-racemic Helional COULD lead to non-racemic 3,4-MDMA if the Helional is converted directly to MDMA, without going through a non-chiral step.

Just another reason to test the enantiomer ratio of the final product.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Glubrahnum said:


> There is nothing wrong with this precursor but some reductive amination synth procedures that are used with it , could produce some potent synth byproducts (contaminants).
> 
> Also, Helional is a chiral molecule, so non-racemic Helional COULD lead to non-racemic 3,4-MDMA if the Helional is converted directly to MDMA, without going through a non-chiral step.
> 
> Just another reason to test the enantiomer ratio of the final product.


helional is not a reductive amination. Its a rearrangement and a very hard one to pull to convert to mdma its still extremely novel but still very unknown so it doesn't raise flags.


----------



## vecktor

Glubrahnum said:


> There is nothing wrong with this precursor but some reductive amination synth procedures that are used with it , could produce some potent synth byproducts (contaminants).
> 
> Also, Helional is a chiral molecule, so non-racemic Helional COULD lead to non-racemic 3,4-MDMA if the Helional is converted directly to MDMA, without going through a non-chiral step.
> 
> Just another reason to test the enantiomer ratio of the final product.



Commercial helional is made from piperonal by aldol with propionaldehyde and is completely and totally racemic. So that is not a viable answer.
helional to MDMA is pretty indirect and unlikely to be used on commercial scale.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vecktor said:


> Commercial helional is made from piperonal by aldol with propionaldehyde and is completely and totally racemic. So that is not a viable answer.
> helional to MDMA is pretty indirect and unlikely to be used on commercial scale.


the dutch have been caught using commerical scales of this stuff. Chemists are crafty and love the unknown and making crazy new novel methods to make things


----------



## GENGAR

Man you guys really know a lot about your mdma chemicals


----------



## Glubrahnum

vecktor said:


> Commercial helional is made from piperonal by aldol with propionaldehyde and is completely and totally racemic.


I did not know that commercial Helional is always racemic.  Are there any novel natural sources for it?


----------



## Glubrahnum

TripSitterNZ said:


> helional is not a reductive amination. Its a rearrangement and a very hard one to pull to convert to mdma its still extremely novel but still very unknown so it doesn't raise flags.


Looks like substituting that terminal oxygen with nitrogen would do it.  What do you call reducing that doubly bonded oxygen and putting the methylamino group in its place ?


----------



## epic11

GENGAR said:


> Man you guys really know a lot about your mdma chemicals



Not really, we are on page 128 and still havent answered the question. We just use big words. lmfao.


----------



## indigoaura

I am pretty sure my first encounter with the MehDMA was in 2005. 

I have also noted the negative interaction between MehDMA and 2CB. I always heard how awesome it was supposed to be, but in my experience, MehDMA followed by 2CB is a negative, horrible, pray for it to be over soon, type of experience. I once had such a bad time that I was concerned I would have to call an ambulance due to the severity of the headache. If I do the 2CB first, it is not as negative, but also not particularly notable. Doing it in that order almost made the MehDMA a bit better than usual. 

I stopped mixing the two entirely because it was typically such an unpleasant experience. I never experienced the synergy or positivity rumored to take place with the MehDMA & 2CB combo. I theorized about this earlier in the thread somewhere as a possible additional indicator that the MehDMA is not right.


----------



## vecktor

TripSitterNZ said:


> the dutch have been caught using commerical scales of this stuff. Chemists are crafty and love the unknown and making crazy new novel methods to make things


I can see several ways they could do this transformation beckman rearrangement via oxime to amide then hofmann to get rid of one carbon to give MDA (unless the isocyanate can be trapped and reduced in situ to give MDMA which would be truly novel) or oxidation to carboxylic acid formation of amide and then hofmann to MDA. MDA can be converted to MDMA but it is not really that straight forward. There are alternatives to Hofmann but Hofmann is cheap.
All pretty poor compared to PMK glycidate, for that reason it is likely that most of the commercial MDMA is the route going PMK glycidate to PMK then reductive amination. That is the easiest route without involving controlled precursors and most likely to be used. 

Glubrahnum I suggest you count the number of carbons on helional... I'm glad you have a job with fancy toys but I disagree with the idea that isobaric compounds will fool GCMS, They won't and no you don't need expensive columns, a short DB5 will separate the isomers as the paper way back in this thread showed. 
MDMA is still MDMA, but what else is present is probably part of the issue and I doubt it is synthesis by-products.

This is academically interesting but I think you are looking too hard for one answer when there are several.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> I am pretty sure my first encounter with the MehDMA was in 2005.
> 
> I have also noted the negative interaction between MehDMA and 2CB. I always heard how awesome it was supposed to be, but in my experience, MehDMA followed by 2CB is a negative, horrible, pray for it to be over soon, type of experience. I once had such a bad time that I was concerned I would have to call an ambulance due to the severity of the headache. If I do the 2CB first, it is not as negative, but also not particularly notable. Doing it in that order almost made the MehDMA a bit better than usual.
> 
> I stopped mixing the two entirely because it was typically such an unpleasant experience. I never experienced the synergy or positivity rumored to take place with the MehDMA & 2CB combo. I theorized about this earlier in the thread somewhere as a possible additional indicator that the MehDMA is not right.



I love both. In fact, 2cb is my fav. I use it a lot.  With that said, without ever doing it..... I can say for sure mehdma and 2cb = no way. MDMA and 2cb = OH YEA.


----------



## me.and.emma

indigoaura said:


> I am pretty sure my first encounter with the MehDMA was in 2005.
> 
> I have also noted the negative interaction between MehDMA and 2CB. I always heard how awesome it was supposed to be, but in my experience, MehDMA followed by 2CB is a negative, horrible, pray for it to be over soon, type of experience. I once had such a bad time that I was concerned I would have to call an ambulance due to the severity of the headache. If I do the 2CB first, it is not as negative, but also not particularly notable. Doing it in that order almost made the MehDMA a bit better than usual.
> 
> I stopped mixing the two entirely because it was typically such an unpleasant experience. I never experienced the synergy or positivity rumored to take place with the MehDMA & 2CB combo. I theorized about this earlier in the thread somewhere as a possible additional indicator that the MehDMA is not right.




I have never tried the crap mdma with 2CB, but when you have the good stuff it is really really amazingly awesome.

It seems the mehmdma blocks some serotonin receptors, that the 2CB cannot get working if its taking after.

and if 2CB is used first it obviously releases enough neurotransmitters to block out some of the shit effect of the mehmdma, for awhile until it get re up taken.

I wonder how mehmdma reacts when LSD is taken first?


*"5-HT1B receptor agonists
In addition to being 5-HT1B agonists, triptans are also agonists at the 5-HT1D receptor, which contributes to their antimigraine effect caused by vasoconstriction of blood vessels in the brain. The same is true for ergotamine. "*

bad mdma also give me a headache, meaning this stuff blocks 5-HT1D.

and 5-HT2C-preferring serotonin receptor agonist that induces anxiety and depression and can cause panic attacks in susceptible individuals. (I have experienced this too)


----------



## indigoaura

I guess it would be interesting experiment to mix the DW MDMA that seemed weak with the 2CB and see if it felt the same as the MehDMA with the 2CB.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vecktor said:


> I can see several ways they could do this transformation beckman rearrangement via oxime to amide then hofmann to get rid of one carbon to give MDA (unless the isocyanate can be trapped and reduced in situ to give MDMA which would be truly novel) or oxidation to carboxylic acid formation of amide and then hofmann to MDA. MDA can be converted to MDMA but it is not really that straight forward. There are alternatives to Hofmann but Hofmann is cheap.
> All pretty poor compared to PMK glycidate, for that reason it is likely that most of the commercial MDMA is the route going PMK glycidate to PMK then reductive amination. That is the easiest route without involving controlled precursors and most likely to be used.
> 
> Glubrahnum I suggest you count the number of carbons on helional... I'm glad you have a job with fancy toys but I disagree with the idea that isobaric compounds will fool GCMS, They won't and no you don't need expensive columns, a short DB5 will separate the isomers as the paper way back in this thread showed.
> MDMA is still MDMA, but what else is present is probably part of the issue and I doubt it is synthesis by-products.
> 
> This is academically interesting but I think you are looking too hard for one answer when there are several.


Dutch clandestine did it first in 2014

The new method they have manage to do does isolate the isocyanate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6205722/#!po=52.5751

Academia managed to do it second. It truly is novel and if pmk gets more and more cracked down along with bmk more of them will probably push for other novel methods


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> I am pretty sure my first encounter with the MehDMA was in 2005.



Im actually glad to hear you say that, as it matches with my own suspicions of those Mickey Mouse pills which suddenly flooded the scene


indigoaura said:


> in my experience, MehDMA followed by 2CB is a negative, horrible, pray for it to be over soon, type of experienc


I remember seeing a PsychedSubstance video report on YT where he had what sounded like a surprisingly difficult and intense experience taking 2cb on top of MDMA and being caught out by unexpected and hard to manage effects.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> Im actually glad to hear you say that, as it matches with my own suspicions of those Mickey Mouse pills which suddenly flooded the scene
> 
> I remember seeing a PsychedSubstance video report on YT where he had what sounded like a surprisingly difficult and intense experience taking 2cb on top of MDMA and being caught out by unexpected and hard to manage effects.


Psychedsubstance was in NZ during his crazy drug use, i personally knew some of the people he use to hang with. The 2cb he would of used would of been the same i had. I knew some people doing  some very crazy nexus flips with it using high dose 50-70 mg 2cb  with 200 mg + mdma.


----------



## phenethylo J

TripSitterNZ said:


> Psychedsubstance was in NZ during his crazy drug use, i personally knew some of the people he use to hang with. The 2cb he would of used would of been the same i had. I knew some people doing  some very crazy nexus flips with it using high dose 50-70 mg 2cb  with 200 mg + mdma.


 Plugged 65mgs of some dw mda and 25mgs of 2cb together and that was pretty good; the strong empathogenic rush was comparable to high doses I've done with pills before. Ended up doing some k and dmt out in my backyard under the stars during the peak.


----------



## Phobos

TripSitterNZ said:


> Psychedsubstance was in NZ during his crazy drug use, i personally knew some of the people he use to hang with. The 2cb he would of used would of been the same i had. I knew some people doing  some very crazy nexus flips with it using high dose 50-70 mg 2cb  with 200 mg + mdma.



I have never tried such dosages of 2C-B, but have snorted up to 25mg which about doubles the intensity compared to oral.
That dosage plus 200+ MDMA seems to indicate a tolerance was at play.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Phobos said:


> I have never tried such dosages of 2C-B, but have snorted up to 25mg which about doubles the intensity compared to oral.
> That dosage plus 200+ MDMA seems to indicate a tolerance was at play.


These were some very heavy wook drug users but tolerance would of also been there since these people seemed to down mdma nearly every day


----------



## me.and.emma

I agree with Phobos: 
"I have never tried such dosages of 2C-B, but have snorted up to 25mg which about doubles the intensity compared to oral.
That dosage plus 200+ MDMA seems to indicate a tolerance was at play. "

I have snorted 20 mg 2CB in the morning after whole night Magicmdma. It was harsh on the nose, but by far the absolute best and most amazing 2CB experience I ever had. I can highly recommend this.


----------



## Phobos

me.and.emma said:


> I have snorted 20 mg 2CB in the morning after whole night Magicmdma. It was harsh on the nose, but by far the absolute best and most amazing 2CB experience I ever had. I can highly recommend this.



I would recommend people try this only if they are experienced.
Having tried intranasal NBOMEs and 2C-B, I would say that while the latter is more benign in perceived effects, it is not so by a big margin, and the come up is rougher.
2C-B is safer from a clinical standpoint though.


----------



## Glubrahnum

vecktor said:


> Glubrahnum I suggest you count the number of carbons on helional...


Yes, Helional and MDMA have the same amount of carbons.  Helional is less massive, though.



vecktor said:


> I'm glad you have a job with fancy toys but I disagree with the idea that isobaric compounds will fool GCMS,


Yes, with modern and diligently made analysis with a combination of GC and MS.  That's why I wrote:



Glubrahnum said:


> It is really easy to fool MS with isobaric substances, but a modern and diligently made analysis with a combination of GC and MS or HPLC/MS should be able to resolve these substances ...especially with derivatization of the sample.
> 
> On the  other hand, most of these analytic techniques do *not* determine the enantiomer ratio.


----------



## vecktor

Glubrahnum said:


> Yes, Helional and MDMA have the same amount of carbons.  Helional is less massive, though.
> 
> 
> Yes, with modern and diligently made analysis with a combination of GC and MS.  That's why I wrote:


give up with the enantiomer ratio, chirality does not arise spontaneously a racemic starting material and racemic reagents. racemic starting material whether it is PMK glycidate or Helional or piperonal or safrole or PMK is going to give racemic MDMA. 

You might have accidentally raised an interesting point though, what is the pharmacology of 3-(3,4-MethylenedioxyPhenyl)-2-methylpropanamine? IUPAC 3-(2H-1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-methylpropan-1-amine which would be the product of reductively aminating Helional rather than rearranging and shortening the chain to to get the correct phenyl propane backbone. I guarantee that GCMS can distinguish it from MDMA and the mass spectra would be markedly different.


----------



## Glubrahnum

I would not like to give up on testing chirality because of due dilligence.  A full analysis should include it.
I realize that non-racemic products are unlikely, but I can only suspect the synth methods - I do not know them for certain.  The clandestine chemist could have come up with something very unusual.


----------



## vecktor

TripSitterNZ said:


> Dutch clandestine did it first in 2014
> 
> The new method they have manage to do does isolate the isocyanate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6205722/#!po=52.5751
> 
> Academia managed to do it second. It truly is novel and if pmk gets more and more cracked down along with bmk more of them will probably push for other novel methods



the route in the link does not start with helional. 3,4 methylenedioxy benzaldehyde Heliotropin also called piperonal  is not helional. Helional would have to be oxidised to the acid precursor. 

or alternatively the route is Beckmann then Hofmann to BOC MDA then methylation with carcinogenic and toxic methylating agents.

Reduction of the isocyanate directly to methylamine would be novel, methylation of a BOC amine is not.  Or maybe we have different ideas of what is novel. I can't see  the azides and Thionyl chloride used in Curtius being popular with clandestine operators azide chemistry has killed people who actually know what they are doing. Headspace Hydrazoic acid.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vecktor said:


> the route in the link does not start with helional. 3,4 methylenedioxy benzaldehyde Heliotropin also called piperonal  is not helional. Helional would have to be oxidised to the acid precursor.
> 
> or alternatively the route is Beckmann then Hofmann to BOC MDA then methylation with carcinogenic and toxic methylating agents.
> 
> Reduction of the isocyanate directly to methylamine would be novel, methylation of a BOC amine is not.  Or maybe we have different ideas of what is novel. I can't see  the azides and Thionyl chloride used in Curtius being popular with clandestine operators azide chemistry has killed people who actually know what they are doing. Headspace Hydrazoic acid.


they start with piperonal and turned it into helional.


----------



## vecktor

Glubrahnum said:


> I would not like to give up on testing chirality because of due dilligence.  A full analysis should include it.
> I realize that non-racemic products are unlikely, but I can only suspect the synth methods - I do not know them for certain.  The clandestine chemist could have came up with something very unusual.


if you suspect the synthetic methods then look for the characteristic impurities, reductive amination of pmk will show traces of dimer as well as PMK-alcohol. I'm sure that other synthetic routes can be identified by the trace impurites especially as the purification of the product is not that good. For example carbamate intermediates as suggested by the supposed  trapped helional route will show trace mpurities where the alkyl group has been added to the methylenedioxy phenyl ring, t-butyl for example with BOC.
Even very low level impurities, parts per billion can be detected with antisolvent trituration and then LC-MS or GC-MS.

I think you are wasting your time obsessing with testing chirality but it is your time to waste.


----------



## vecktor

TripSitterNZ said:


> they start with piperonal and turned it into helional.


no they didn't, helional is an aldehyde


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vecktor said:


> no they didn't, helional is an aldehyde


they turned it into helionical acid reread it.


----------



## vecktor

TripSitterNZ said:


> they turned it into helionical acid reread it.


helionical acid ???   OK I want whatever drugs your on.
can I call it hydrocinnamicopiperonylythingy acid instead? no matter it is not helional. If the clandestines are using it then they are either amazingly dumb or desperate or both


----------



## majk13

I read your statements and cry ... in short, I will try to tell my story.  

The year 2003, my friend worked in business gave me a tablet with mdma red heart import from the Netherlands, effects such as we all know euphoria, affectionate touch, willingness to talk to other people etc. 

As an introvert I was immediately addicted and mdma was something that changed my life.  After four times, the red hearts ended and the next tablets practically did not work ... I read the boarder and already then I found articles about the lack of magic after using it several times.  I called a friend and asked what was going on, he informed me that the import was over and the tablets were produced in our country.  The price has changed from 10 euros per piece to 2 euros ... 

But I was already addicted, the feelings from the first time with mdma have engraved in my memory to such an extent that I have dreamed so far.  So I was looking for insane access to good quality mdma, not believing that the brain became resistant to its effects.  

And guess what, at the end of 2007 I found a tablet that worked exactly like the one at the beginning.  The magic is back !!!  It was my last adventure with mdma, I met my wife, I have a child, home, company and I am a very happy person but memories of my romance with mdma have never expired.  

So I think I'll live through it again!  I got a tablet called Blue Punisher lab tested 300 mdma.  So saturday evening empty stomach, I take half a tablet thinking that 300 mg is a lot too much, after 40 minutes I took action, a huge amphetamine beat, no euphoria, smile, better well-being, only a terrible jaw and feeling of anxiety, I thought that after 12 years break  I have tolerance so I chewed on a second half tablet...

  The amphetamine condition only got worse, after four hours the substance began to descend, leaving only a feeling of sadness and depression... 

 I write this on Monday and I still feel tragic ... I know how mdma used to work and I will say simply I do not know what was in this tablet but it was not 100% mdma.  

I know that producers do not do it for our pleasure, only for the money, but fucking have mdma even counterfeit !!!  What the fuckin 'times we are living in today ... 

On the other hand, people would pay more if only someone offered quality from the old days, maybe there are no such offers because mdma is already a global business associated producers, sellers, laboratories, if anyone  he would lean out with better quality the competition would not be happy ... Mdma is over and I am afraid that it will never come back ...


----------



## me.and.emma

majk13 said:


> I read your statements and cry ... in short, I will try to tell my story.
> 
> The year 2003, my friend worked in business gave me a tablet with mdma red heart import from the Netherlands, effects such as we all know euphoria, affectionate touch, willingness to talk to other people etc.
> 
> As an introvert I was immediately addicted and mdma was something that changed my life.  After four times, the red hearts ended and the next tablets practically did not work ... I read the boarder and already then I found articles about the lack of magic after using it several times.  I called a friend and asked what was going on, he informed me that the import was over and the tablets were produced in our country.  The price has changed from 10 euros per piece to 2 euros ...
> 
> But I was already addicted, the feelings from the first time with mdma have engraved in my memory to such an extent that I have dreamed so far.  So I was looking for insane access to good quality mdma, not believing that the brain became resistant to its effects.
> 
> And guess what, at the end of 2007 I found a tablet that worked exactly like the one at the beginning.  The magic is back !!!  It was my last adventure with mdma, I met my wife, I have a child, home, company and I am a very happy person but memories of my romance with mdma have never expired.
> 
> So I think I'll live through it again!  I got a tablet called Blue Punisher lab tested 300 mdma.  So saturday evening empty stomach, I take half a tablet thinking that 300 mg is a lot too much, after 40 minutes I took action, a huge amphetamine beat, no euphoria, smile, better well-being, only a terrible jaw and feeling of anxiety, I thought that after 12 years break  I have tolerance so I chewed on a second half tablet...
> 
> The amphetamine condition only got worse, after four hours the substance began to descend, leaving only a feeling of sadness and depression...
> 
> I write this on Monday and I still feel tragic ... I know how mdma used to work and I will say simply I do not know what was in this tablet but it was not 100% mdma.
> 
> I know that producers do not do it for our pleasure, only for the money, but fucking have mdma even counterfeit !!!  What the fuckin 'times we are living in today ...
> 
> On the other hand, people would pay more if only someone offered quality from the old days, maybe there are no such offers because mdma is already a global business associated producers, sellers, laboratories, if anyone  he would lean out with better quality the competition would not be happy ... Mdma is over and I am afraid that it will never come back ...




I feel you dude. It's a terrible thing what has become of mdma. And that that shit tests as Mdma!!?? 
for 3,5 years I was searching almost losing hope.
And recently I found good tablets.
There are out there, but it's like finding a needle in a haystack.
I noticed there is a difference in taste between the 2 substances.
Also we have come to the conclusion on this forum that getting pills under 200grams is your best option of getting real mdma. It does not guarantee though.


----------



## Glubrahnum

majk13 said:


> So I think I'll live through it again!  I got a tablet called Blue Punisher lab tested 300mg MDMA.


Do you know what method was used by that lab to test it?
What did their report contain?

What is your body mass?
Do you take any antidepressants or stimulants ?
What did you eat before consuming this pill?
Did you notice your Mydriasis after the half of the tablet?

If you want to contribute to solving this enigma, please keep a pill of this MehMDMA for future analysis.
If you want to test it on another virgin or long-abstinent user - keep two.  A differential blood Oxyticin level before and after 120mg of this stuff would be quite telling.


----------



## epic11

majk13 said:


> I read your statements and cry ... in short, I will try to tell my story.
> 
> The year 2003, my friend worked in business gave me a tablet with mdma red heart import from the Netherlands, effects such as we all know euphoria, affectionate touch, willingness to talk to other people etc.
> 
> As an introvert I was immediately addicted and mdma was something that changed my life.  After four times, the red hearts ended and the next tablets practically did not work ... I read the boarder and already then I found articles about the lack of magic after using it several times.  I called a friend and asked what was going on, he informed me that the import was over and the tablets were produced in our country.  The price has changed from 10 euros per piece to 2 euros ...
> 
> But I was already addicted, the feelings from the first time with mdma have engraved in my memory to such an extent that I have dreamed so far.  So I was looking for insane access to good quality mdma, not believing that the brain became resistant to its effects.
> 
> And guess what, at the end of 2007 I found a tablet that worked exactly like the one at the beginning.  The magic is back !!!  It was my last adventure with mdma, I met my wife, I have a child, home, company and I am a very happy person but memories of my romance with mdma have never expired.
> 
> So I think I'll live through it again!  I got a tablet called Blue Punisher lab tested 300 mdma.  So saturday evening empty stomach, I take half a tablet thinking that 300 mg is a lot too much, after 40 minutes I took action, a huge amphetamine beat, no euphoria, smile, better well-being, only a terrible jaw and feeling of anxiety, I thought that after 12 years break  I have tolerance so I chewed on a second half tablet...
> 
> The amphetamine condition only got worse, after four hours the substance began to descend, leaving only a feeling of sadness and depression...
> 
> I write this on Monday and I still feel tragic ... I know how mdma used to work and I will say simply I do not know what was in this tablet but it was not 100% mdma.
> 
> I know that producers do not do it for our pleasure, only for the money, but fucking have mdma even counterfeit !!!  What the fuckin 'times we are living in today ...
> 
> On the other hand, people would pay more if only someone offered quality from the old days, maybe there are no such offers because mdma is already a global business associated producers, sellers, laboratories, if anyone  he would lean out with better quality the competition would not be happy ... Mdma is over and I am afraid that it will never come back ...



lol and so many people are actively asking and looking for "the blue punisher pill" I was suspect on them, i thought they might be mehdma as well. (mass produced, huge amounts of them in circulation, and huge mg contents) You have pretty much proven they are indeed of the new breed, and its mehdma.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

The only pill I've had in the last 10 years was a Blue Punisher, and it was distinctly 'meh'.


----------



## me.and.emma

Pill Reports - Ecstasy Test Results Database by Enlighten
					






					pillreports.net
				




blue punisher also contains traces of: 4-Fluoromethylphenidate (4F-MPH)


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

me.and.emma said:


> Pill Reports - Ecstasy Test Results Database by Enlighten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pillreports.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> blue punisher also contains traces of: 4-Fluoromethylphenidate (4F-MPH)



I believe that was one particular batch which had a slightly different stamp on it. My limited experience with 4f-mph found it to be a fairly decent stimulant. The blue punisher I had was as mongy as fuck. Fast asleep after 3 hours...


----------



## majk13

The examination was not carried out on my behalf, I was referred to it by the seller ...









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7249 - Blue Punisher, 7249
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




The weight and appearance match.

Body weight 93 kg
I haven't used drugs in 12 years.
I use 6 mg seroquel at night.
I took the pill on an empty stomach.
Pupils medium enlarged.

I would like to help but I don't have these tablets anymore.

I try not to even think about my Saturday experience. It was terrible and if I could I would like to erase it from memory.

I will also add that in 1998 I used amphetamines of very good quality several times and the descent was very similar to that of the blue punisher.

After a real mdma I have never had an episode or any unpleasant descent, only nice memories and a smile on my face ...


----------



## me.and.emma

majk13 said:


> The examination was not carried out on my behalf, I was referred to it by the seller ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7249 - Blue Punisher, 7249
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The weight and appearance match.
> 
> Body weight 93 kg
> I haven't used drugs in 12 years.
> I use 6 mg seroquel at night.
> I took the pill on an empty stomach.
> Pupils medium enlarged.
> 
> I would like to help but I don't have these tablets anymore.
> 
> I try not to even think about my Saturday experience. It was terrible and if I could I would like to erase it from memory.
> 
> I will also add that in 1998 I used amphetamines of very good quality several times and the descent was very similar to that of the blue punisher.
> 
> After a real mdma I have never had an episode or any unpleasant descent, only nice memories and a smile on my face ...




Did you use the seroquel too when you took Mdma in the past?

pupils medium enlarged is suspicious they should be fully enlarge at that dose.


----------



## majk13

I have been taking seroquel for two years.
As for pupils, I can be wrong, I just never like looking in the mirror after drug? but my wife was saying they wasnt so big...


----------



## me.and.emma

seroquel is an anti-psychotic medication and is an antagonist for receptor 5-HT2A (this receptor also engages with mdma & psychedelics)

also is partial agonist for 5HT1A which is oxytocin receptor


and also reduces dopaminergic neurotransmission.

is also a1 adrenergic can lead to postural hypotension.
(could be thats why you felt huge amphetamin beat?)


not sure if at such low doses of 6 mg it could affect the roll. but there is a possibility.


----------



## Glubrahnum

majk13 said:


> I use 6 mg seroquel at night.


That is  a serotonin transporter blocker, so you should research the interaction between Seroquel and MDMA, which also acts on the serotonin transporter.
After 2 years, the response of serotonin receptors would be significantly deregulated.

Seroquel also blocks the norepinephrine transporter, which is responsible for Mydriasis.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

The only legit blue pushiners  were pressed in 2017 if people are using them this year they are rip offs. They were magic love back in the days the original first press. Then after they poped up in 2018 they had some fucking crazy shit added to it and no longer good. Some guy claimed he put pcp in them ( doubt it) but they had something fucked in it.


----------



## epic11

__





						DrugsData.org: Test Results
					

DrugsData.org lab analysis and drug checking results




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




^ just to debunk the 4-fmph in all blue punishers. Its bs. Only one actually came out that way. Most are all mdma only. (mehdma) 

Be careful with your wording.


----------



## epic11

TripSitterNZ said:


> Then after they poped up in 2018 they had some fucking crazy shit added to it and no longer good. Some guy claimed he put pcp in them ( doubt it) but they had something fucked in it.



See above, pretty wild statement you just made there.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

epic11 said:


> See above, pretty wild statement you just made there.


I knew the plug who had thousands and had adulterated them with something unknown and repressed them to increase his profits by a huge margin.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> lol and so many people are actively asking and looking for "the blue punisher pill" I was suspect on them, i thought they might be mehdma as well. (mass produced, huge amounts of them in circulation, and huge mg contents) You have pretty much proven they are indeed of the new breed, and its mehdma.


And the Blue Punishers specifically are arguably the most notorious mega high dosed press today, consistently 250-300 mg with rare exception.

Coincidence or correlation I have to wonder?  I have seen glowing reports on them however, including one from our own long experienced @TripSitterNZ so there could well be a large variation between batches.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> And the Blue Punishers specifically are arguably the most notorious mega high dosed press today, consistently 250-300 mg with rare exception.
> 
> Coincidence or correlation I have to wonder?  I have seen glowing reports on them however, including one from our own long experienced @TripSitterNZ so there could well be a large variation between batches.


Most of these blue punishers dont even look remotely close to the magic one i had in 2017. They all seem to have different shades of blue and different shape. The one i did which was magic before alot of other copies came out was very light blue perfect press didn't look ghetto as fuck. Duration of roll was 6 hours. Magic mdma is pretty much what i get every time if im getting high quality presses. Crystal is a bit iffy so i will wait til a good batch pops up


----------



## majk13

Glubrahnum said:


> That is  a serotonin transporter blocker, so you should research the interaction between Seroquel and MDMA, which also acts on the serotonin transporter.
> After 2 years, the response of serotonin receptors would be significantly deregulated.
> 
> Seroquel also blocks the norepinephrine transporter, which is responsible for Mydriasis.



I know exactly how it work.

Lowest dose is 25 mg in one pill, i cut it in to 4 pieces, last dose was 8 pm day before rolling so it was out off the system...

At this low dose its has only affinity to histamine receptors


----------



## Glubrahnum

majk13 said:


> Lowest dose is 25 mg in one pill, i cut it in to 4 pieces, last dose was 8 pm day before rolling so it was out off the system...


Not completely.  Seroquel's half-life is 7h, which means that after 7 hours half of it is still in your system. After 14 hours - a quarter of it.

Seroquel is a potent serotonergic 5-HT2 receptor antagonist, so the most significant question should not be about the level of Seroquel remaining in your system but about your long-term receptor deregulation?  2 years is "long-term" IMHO.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Glubrahnum said:


> Not completely.  Seroquel's half-life is 7h, which means that after 7 hours half of it is still in your system. After 14 hours - a quarter of it.
> 
> However, the most significant question should not be about the level of Seroquel remaining in your system but your long-term receptor deregulation?  2 years is "long-term" IMHO.


seroquel doesn't cause long term receptor deregulation unless you keep taking it. Soon as you stop it takes a few weeks to clear up. I know who on it for years stopped using it and trip just as hard and feel mdma the same as me.

The most drugs i ever did it a night was a strong hit of acid alot of weed a shit load of mdma. near the end of the acid i did edibles ritalin and 5 mg of xannax 200 mg of sequrel smoked a joint and did more mdma i woke up 20 hours with vague memories of drinking out of the toilet bowl lol.


----------



## majk13

Wiki: quetiapine is a dopamine, serotonin, and adrenergic antagonist, and a potent antihistamine with some anticholinergic properties - so if its antagonist it should upregulate the recoptors imo...

Wiki: At very low doses, quetiapine acts primarily as a histamine receptor blocker (antihistamine) and α1-adrenergic blocker. When the dose is increased, quetiapine activates the adrenergic system and binds strongly to serotonin receptors and autoreceptors


----------



## Glubrahnum

TripSitterNZ said:


> seroquel doesn't cause long term receptor deregulation unless you keep taking it. Soon as you stop it takes a few weeks to clear up.


Even so, "few weeks" is long-term, because Seroquel's effects persists long after the drug's elimination from the system.*
During this period the effects of MDMA can be interfered with so "majk13" is not a prime specimen for gauging the effect of this drug.

It does not mean he is wrong, but the chances that his observation of MDMA's effects were interfered with, are increased relative to someone who is not under influence of other drugs affecting the same receptors as MDMA.

* Also let's not conflate long-term dosing with long-term effects post cessation.


----------



## majk13

After a long reflection, I would like to write that maybe you are right, I apologize in advance if I confused this topic ... 

It is possible that the drug affected mdma, and maybe I'm too old for such adventures (39) and maybe someone  has deceived me during the purchase ...

 I hope you solve the mdma puzzle, I will support you and who knows, maybe in the next 10 years I will try my beloved substance again??

 Good luck friends.


----------



## Glubrahnum

majk13 said:


> I hope you solve the mdma puzzle, I will support you and who knows, maybe in the next 10 years I will try my beloved substance again??


If you are dedicated to the cause, or you have friends who are, you can still contribute to the research by submitting the pill for professional testing yourself. There are people on this forum who will help you to arrange that.

If the lab report indicates an unadulterated 3,4-MDMA salt, you can wait several months to become a "good specimen" for gauging its effects, ...or partner with some MDMA-naïve friend (or a long-time abstinent) to measure the blood Oxytocin levels 1h before and 2h after ingestion of 6.53μMol of 3,4-MDMA molecules per 1kg of body weight, on an empty stomach (without intervening activity), which would provide a hard to dismiss proof that there is something wrong with the drug despite the positive lab report.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> seroquel doesn't cause long term receptor deregulation unless you keep taking it. Soon as you stop it takes a few weeks to clear up. I know who on it for years stopped using it and trip just as hard and feel mdma the same as me.
> 
> The most drugs i ever did it a night was a strong hit of acid alot of weed a shit load of mdma. near the end of the acid i did edibles ritalin and 5 mg of xannax 200 mg of sequrel smoked a joint and did more mdma i woke up 20 hours with vague memories of drinking out of the toilet bowl lol.


You just reminded me of an extraordinary feat of sleeping I did one time.

It was after a super but on paper, very heavy weekend. Friday night to Saturday night I took 16 Heart MDMA pills, very clean, about 90 mg.

No sleep, went to a outdoor rave party saturday, with a lot of ketamine use from early evening. Totally in another dimension but coherent and communicable. Hogh as can be, not having come down from the MDMA and the ketamibe added in always extended and changed the experience. No edge at all, and very hallucinogenic.

I took another 9 Heart pills by dawn, 25 in total over 2 nights and plenty of ketamine.

I then scored 3 hits of acid in the morning, very unexpectedly. Of cpurse it was not needed at the time, but I did take all 3 when I got back home about 9.30 am.

I remember how I put the 3 tabs in my mouth, expecting to hold onto the paper for a while, but they instantly fizzed and dissolved in seconds, with a tingle sensation like fizzy drink.

I left home to score some skunk and visited a friends house on Sunday morning. I stayed all day, the acid came up very gradually and subtly over many hours. It wasnt really until the evening that I reached peak, by which time we had been sessionong very heavily and messily on ketamine all day, including huge massive lines up to 0.5 nearly.

I was fine with all of this as I had an affinity for handling these intense hallucinogenic states. But I was incredibly high and on the maddest, most insane hallucinogenic buzz, hills and mountains everywhere but at the same time I was fully present in the room, aware of others, even was being made to try and play a card gane at one point by a misguided fellow. Didnt quite work out that one, I remember that is when the trip stepped up a notch, 10 hours after dropping the acid.  Also after another, but different press, MDMA pill- hit me really hard that one.

The night went on with ket, cannabis and alcohol. Great night, couldnt have been happier and felt more normal haha honestly. 

Eventually I blanked out and actually forgot several hours, which was and especially rare experience for me in all my years of drug taking, outside of downers which were scarce for me.  I came to about 4 am to a sleeping room, made my way home.

I was due at work as a dustman but my mum was on holiday.

I needed sleep. So here is the amazing bit. I felt good, just cained and tired.

I slept for 14 hours straight, not even blinking. Wow, got up, tried to go about the day. I remember going out but I was feeling exceptionally cained. I was up for exactly 
3 1/2 hours before sleep sucked me back to bed.

And I slept for ANOTHER 14 hours straight, exactly, without a blink! After that I felt fantastic and fully recharged.  28 hours of the deepest, most restful sleep vs 3.5 hours consciousness.  

What a feat, I could badly use that kind of sleep catching up now.


----------



## indigoaura

> I was fine with all of this


 

I don't know why, man, but that quote cracked me up.


----------



## indigoaura

This whole conversation about Seroquel got me thinking about my birth control (centchroman) again. Did some new searches and stumbled upon this: 



			https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1ec4/fbab137de431b0fe8264eac640116aecb790.pdf?_ga=2.2795250.310532410.1568758728-1670915453.1568758728
		




> However, the same is not the case with centchroman which markedly raised the level of MAO in mouse pituitary. It i quite possible that ccntchrornan acts through a positive feedback, thereby raising the enzymic activity.



Am I reading this right that Centchroman increases MAO activity? Would this be enough to potentially interfere in serotonin levels while rolling?


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> I don't know why, man, but that quote cracked me up.


Haha, thank you for seeing the funny side. I guess It's funny because it is so true. And I think my expression was captivating my realisation at the phenomenon of how you can be so totally at the absolute Max of your conscious capacity for psychedelic and empathogenic intoxication in a harmonious friendly atmosphere and be not just completely your normal self at the same time but 100% relaxed confident calm ok and sorted all round.

So when I look back on these memories it is a real marvel to me because these days I do not handle anything so well.

But the even bigger point here is how I really was not messed up or deranged or outside of myself but completely centred and together in an apparently perfectly emotionally stable and healthy condition.

I suffered no bad comedown or any difficult moments thoughts or feelings returning to normality. I was just very cained, slept it off, and bounced back to life ready to go again the following weekend I'm sure in prime spirit and fully recovered.

And this was just typical behaviour and experience for me between 2003 and 2005 after I came home from university to work full-time and take as much MDMA, LSD, ketamine and mushrooms as I could get my hands on.

Until Mr Lyme came along. I was fairly happy and content and comfortable in life right up until that moment despite obscene psychedelic use.  Even when I took breaks I did not suffer depressive episodes or any difficult feelings or side effects which I remember which would dissuade me from continuing with my drug usage.

Those Mickey Mouse pills though, which I believe were Mehdma, I didnt like them at all, avoided if there was a choice.

Had I been taking that product the whole time instead of the high quality MDMA I was, I believe the picture and my experience may have been quite different, with no real positive side to the experience, no magic.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Am I reading this right that Centchroman increases MAO activity? Would this be enough to potentially interfere in serotonin levels while rolling?


IMO the deamination of MDMA in your body would be increased very slightly, resulting in a slightly shorter "roll" at worst. The increase in MAO activity is so small that  I would not be surprised if its effect on serotonine and dopamine was not perceptible at all.

Just don't get any ideas of counteracting these Centchroman effects with MAO inhibitors.  They are really dangerous together with MDMA.  The risk is not worth it.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> This whole conversation about Seroquel got me thinking about my birth control (centchroman) again. Did some new searches and stumbled upon this:
> 
> 
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1ec4/fbab137de431b0fe8264eac640116aecb790.pdf?_ga=2.2795250.310532410.1568758728-1670915453.1568758728
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I reading this right that Centchroman increases MAO activity? Would this be enough to potentially interfere in serotonin levels while rolling?


If had a significant effect it could have the potentinal to casue serotonin syndrome while on mdma. MAOs would decrease effects of mdma. But its not clear how much it increases the MAO activity but caution is probably best if using mdma on birth control.


----------



## ChemicallyEnhanced

It ISN'T MDMA. That's the point.


----------



## indigoaura

> Just don't get any ideas of counteracting these Centchroman effects with MAO inhibitors. They are really dangerous together with MDMA. The risk is not worth it.



I am aware of those risks, and the risks of mixing MDMA with other drugs in general. As I have mentioned in other threads, I was sitting by a friend who had a seizure due to mixing MDMA with another CYP2D6 drug. Well aware of the dangers of serotonin syndrome etc. However, I may be going off this birth control anyway, so, it would be interesting if that created a difference.

@TripSitterNZ...I have been on birth control for literally the entirety of my adult life. Just a matter of what kind. When you are a sexually active female who does not want kids, there are not a lot of other options. 

I'm just wondering if this could be a factor for me. I used to use something totally different. If I am reading that article right, my old birth control (a typical estrogen/progesterone combo) would have actually inhibited the MAO, while my current birth control increases it.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

I don't think they have a huge impact compared to traditional MAOS as far as i was aware my friends on birth control never had complications while using mdma and still had magic experiences but i have no idea what type they were on.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> It ISN'T MDMA. That's the point.


What isn't ?


----------



## ChemicallyEnhanced

Glubrahnum said:


> What isn't ?



The shitty stuff that people get these days when they buy "Ecstasy" or "Molly". The reason it doesn't seem the same "the days" is because those things often contain very little or even no MDMA. They're often a mix of research chemicals. If you got actual MDMA, it would be the same as always as the nature of the chemical itself would be identical.


----------



## AutoTripper

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> The shitty stuff that people get these days when they buy "Ecstasy" or "Molly". The reason it doesn't seem the same "the days" is because those things often contain very little or even no MDMA. They're often a mix of research chemicals. If you got actual MDMA, it would be the same as always as the nature of the chemical itself would be identical.


Well this would absolutely categorically NOT fit with all of the evidence out there. i.e., lab anaylsis of these modern suspect pills shows MDMA in very high doses and no  other active substances, NOT research chemicals.

Have you never actually looked at the ecstasydata site? Have a look and you will see that your statement is wildly incorrect. This thread has extensively discussed all such points maybe have a browse and you may see how wildly innacurate and unfounded your statement is.

If the issue really was that simple and obvious this matter would have been laid to bed a long time ago. But we are talking  about the MDMA itself. Crystal, powder, pills, ALL of it. Not just pressed pills, some of which yes, may contain additional or other substances, but this is still very rare as confirmed by ongoing analysis.

The problem is with the MDMA itself. This has been very clearly established, just not scientifically proven or explained yet.

Which is the entire purpose or target of this thread. I would ecourage you to have a read and see if you can join us with the programme.


----------



## ChemicallyEnhanced

AutoTripper said:


> Well this would absolutely categorically NOT fit with all of the evidence out there. i.e., lab anaylsis of these modern suspect pills shows MDMA in very high doses and no  other active substances, NOT research chemicals.
> 
> Have you never actually looked at the ecstasydata site? Have a look and you will see that your statement is wildly incorrect. This thread has extensively discussed all such points maybe have a browse and you may see how wildly innacurate and unfounded your statement is.
> 
> If the issue really was that simple and obvious this matter would have been laid to bed a long time ago. But we are talking  about the MDMA itself. Crystal, powder, pills, ALL of it. Not just pressed pills, some of which yes, may contain additional or other substances, but this is still very rare as confirmed by ongoing analysis.
> 
> The problem is with the MDMA itself. This has been very clearly established, just not scientifically proven or explained yet.
> 
> Which is the entire purpose or target of this thread. I would ecourage you to have a read and see if you can join us with the programme.



No, it isn't. It's very well know that a lot of these pills do not contain MDMA.
If you're getting ones that DO and not enjoying it as much, that's because the more you use MDMA, the lesser the experience.


----------



## AutoTripper

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> No, it isn't. It's very well know that a lot of these pills do not contain MDMA.
> If you're getting ones that DO and not enjoying it as much, that's because the more you use MDMA, the lesser the experience.


With respect, you clearly have not read this thread. These arguments have been discussed at length and refuted. Loss of magic has been ruled out, because there are many people here who have reported having access to different sources of MDMA and coming across the legitimate true magic MDMA from particular sources or on certain occasions and experiencing the absolute full glory of the drug again which is completely and entirely lacking with the other sources of suspect modern MDMA which are testing both in Laboratories and with with testing kits as containing high dose MDMA and no other detectable psychoactive substances.


----------



## ChemicallyEnhanced

AutoTripper said:


> With respect, you clearly have not read this thread. These arguments have been discussed at length and refuted. Loss of magic has been ruled out, because there are many people here who have reported having access to different sources of MDMA and coming across the legitimate true magic MDMA from particular sources or on certain occasions and experiencing the absolute full glory of the drug again which is completely and entirely lacking with the other sources of suspect modern MDMA which are testing both in Laboratories and with with testing kits as containing high dose MDMA and no other detectable psychoactive substances.



Of course I haven't read the thread lol, it's 131 pages long.


----------



## AutoTripper

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> Of course I haven't read the thread lol, it's 131 pages long.


Well then!


----------



## ChemicallyEnhanced

AutoTripper said:


> Well then!



There's a lot more info out there then just this one thread. I read the earlier entries when this started and most people agree with me. It's actually where I got the information from.


----------



## AutoTripper

If this problem genuinely boiled down to something so simple as the loss of Magic then this would have been been discussed and concluded decades ago.

It doesn't take 30 + years for somebody to lose the magic.


----------



## wenluojia

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> There's a lot more info out there then just this one thread. I read the earlier entries when this started and most people agree with me. It's actually where I got the information from.



There is a lot more info in this thread than the earlier entries. This thread has some of the best information about the question why different sessions with different batches MDMA are differently experienced. In other places, everyone just keeps repeating things like "losing the magic" and "set and setting". Here, over 132 pages, people have actually thought and discussed the subject at length. If you have another source of information with a similar amount of similarly useful info, please post it here for everyone to look at.

Here's an overview of the thread for you.


----------



## epic11

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> There's a lot more info out there then just this one thread. I read the earlier entries when this started and most people agree with me. It's actually where I got the information from.



Your OP, that caused you a lot of backlash, is info that would have been pretty staple in 2011. Its 2019 my friend. Lets get with the times. In 09-12, most pills actually WERE adulterated (mainly methylone, speed, and other RC's), and you used pillreports/edata and test kits to confirm what ones werent. So your original statement, is correct in an older sense. In 2019, we are speaking of the crazy amounts of mdma only pills and powders (LAB TESTED MDMA ONLY), that are doing literally everything mdma does, without big pupils or real empathy/love. Literally the "ecstasy" part is gone! Wake up my friend, you arent all knowing, and we been here a minute.  Those who know, know.


----------



## ChemicallyEnhanced

epic11 said:


> Your OP, that caused you a lot of backlash, is info that would have been pretty staple in 2011. Its 2019 my friend. Lets get with the times. In 09-12, most pills actually WERE adulterated (mainly methylone, speed, and other RC's), and you used pillreports/edata and test kits to confirm what ones werent. So your original statement, is correct in an older sense. In 2019, we are speaking of the crazy amounts of mdma only pills and powders (LAB TESTED MDMA ONLY), that are doing literally everything mdma does, without big pupils or real empathy/love. Literally the "ecstasy" part is gone! Wake up my friend, you arent all knowing, and we been here a minute.  Those who know, know.



I never claimed to be all-knowing lol! Thanks for the updated info 
I imagine it also depends on where you live. For example, we don't even live on the same continent, which would explain the differences. It's possible what I say is true where I live and what you say is true where you live.


----------



## AutoTripper

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> I never claimed to be all-knowing lol! Thanks for the updated info
> I imagine it also depends on where you live. For example, we don't even live on the same continent, which would explain the differences. It's possible what I say is true where I live and what you say is true where you live.


Yes sure thing, and nobody is disputing or rebutting that but we are talking about the globe on the whole and the vast majority of people's experiences.

It is only the people who have experienced the genuine legit magic MDMA either recently or long ago, some of whom still have access to the genuine quality product and are able to observe unquestionable differences between the two sources, who are really going to be aware of this matter with so many current users arguably only having taken the inferior suspect MDMA with nothing to compare it to.
Certainly nobody is going to tell you that you do not get genuine legit MDMA yourself or that it is not very common in your particular area to come across adulterated MDMA pills containing other psychoactive substances and possibly little to no actual MDMA at all.

The issue here is much wider and does appear to be very genuine.


----------



## epic11

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> I never claimed to be all-knowing lol! Thanks for the updated info
> I imagine it also depends on where you live. For example, we don't even live on the same continent, which would explain the differences. It's possible what I say is true where I live and what you say is true where you live.



You actions certainly seemed that way. "let me come into this 131 page thread and just hit them with the info they completely missed!" Ignorant. And im worldwide my friend, my location doesnt change this topic. The world is all interconnected now, and this topic now affects everyone, everywhere who enjoys mdma.


----------



## ChemicallyEnhanced

epic11 said:


> You actions certainly seemed that way. "let me come into this 131 page thread and just hit them with the info they completely missed!" Ignorant. And im worldwide my friend, my location doesnt change this topic. The world is all interconnected now, and this topic now affects everyone, everywhere who enjoys mdma.



Orrrr, I happened to see the thread in the recent activity bit - not seeing whether there was 1 reply or 1000 - and threw in what I know about the "MDMA" in my area.
You are NOT worldwide. You have not lived in every country and experiences every culture. Not even close. No way.
You are the only one who has said anything remotely insulting or arrogant.


----------



## sassyfrass

I feel like the chemists who have made Magic know the answer and aren't about to give it up.
its a very exclusive product now.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> who enjoys mdma.


Haha, yeah- or Doesn't, shall we say? (Maybe in some cases- "think" they do) 

Heck I'm pretty sure some even do. But then I guess that is the way of the world there are people who enjoy a hell of a lot of things I would not enjoy myself.

I mean, even those God awful modern movies I despise so much still draw an audience and sell millions of DVD's.


----------



## Phobos

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> Orrrr, I happened to see the thread in the recent activity bit - not seeing whether there was 1 reply or 1000 - and threw in what I know about the "MDMA" in my area.
> You are NOT worldwide. You have not lived in every country and experiences every culture. Not even close. No way.
> You are the only one who has said anything remotely insulting or arrogant.



We have reports from Australia, Europe and North America.


----------



## me.and.emma

indigoaura said:


> This whole conversation about Seroquel got me thinking about my birth control (centchroman) again. Did some new searches and stumbled upon this:
> 
> 
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1ec4/fbab137de431b0fe8264eac640116aecb790.pdf?_ga=2.2795250.310532410.1568758728-1670915453.1568758728
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I reading this right that Centchroman increases MAO activity? Would this be enough to potentially interfere in serotonin levels while rolling?




personally I have felt no difference between being not on, and being on various forms of hormon BC and using mdma.

But then again every woman's body is different how it reacts on BC. I mean some would complain about mood swings, that I am sure involves some serotonin.

Is it a possibility for you to switch to non-hormonal BC and see if it effects your rolls?

When my mom when into the change they offered her a SSRI or estrogen replacement. It definitely points to the fact that estrogen affects serotonin in some or other ways.

Women tend to need less of mdma as well I have noticed. Could this be related that we have estrogen and men not?

It's certainly very interesting subject, I will want to learn more about it and please if you have info could you share this via private msg with me?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

The weird thing in all this is that I still find the MehDMA thoroughly enjoyable. Its strong, it gets me fucked and the body high is amazing. But I always end up feeling a little cheated because ultimately, it just sends me to sleep after a few hours. It's lacking the duration, the exhilaration and the whole EXPERIENCE of the good stuff. The good shit IS still out there, as many of us have confirmed. It just no longer seems to be the norm.

I fuckin love stimulant type drugs, and if I get fucked up I'll usually enjoy it. But I can tell the difference between a complete experience and one that is lacking. I had a ten year break between 2002, when I was still getting good pills for 2 quid a pop and 2012 when I scored some crystal for the first time. I took a solid dose expecting to be blown away and was left wondering "wtf was that?" I thought I was damaged. I thought my opiate addiction had ruined me. But eventually I found some that just 'did it' for me. That's when I realised it wasn't me, it was the drugs. Everybody knows good drugs when they find them, but it's just so easy to make excuses for those that aren't.

For me the meh stuff is all about a strong come up that gets nowhere, whereas the magic stuff provides a strong come up that breaks through to a complete experience. An analogy would be like coming up on mushrooms or acid but not actually having a trip.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> For me the meh stuff is all about a strong come up that gets nowhere, whereas the magic stuff provides a strong come up that breaks through to a complete experience. An analogy would be like coming up on mushrooms or acid but not actually having a trip.



yep. And in BETWEEN mehdma experiences, i had a crazy magic one. Just to re-confirm your stance on "good drugs" Its out there for sure.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

The magic effects of mdma give love on another level to anything only beaten by acid when you transcend the ego or dmt. I was watching some videos of australians that claimed they were on mdma in festvials yet not one of them had any pupil enlargement. When i do mdma my pupils are Full black that if i were to take a selfie you can clearly see the phone and room in the reflection of my eyes. When good presses are about i would always go back to the plug and buy as much as i could afford allowing me to have a stash for years of magic til i ran out and burnt my brain from doing them once to twice a week. Im a firm believer that you never lose the magic and its a myth sent around by those dickheads selling shitty as product. Alot of crystal product is quite suspect in NZ its a mda/mdma mix type vibe very speedy medium sized pupils not as much love but some is still there but not magic unconditional love hug everybody and tell them you love them 100 times a in a night mdma. Well i dont have other reagant kits to test other than marquis those who use to test their product since the early 2000s claim that over time the reactions to the final mdma take different colours changes. MDMA magic should induce a strong feeling of level 3 unity between you the enviroment and people around you with  the music.


----------



## indigoaura

@me.and.emma I think birth control pills have the potential to shift the experience. I had a friend whose reactions abruptly changed when she switched birth control pills to Yasmin. She would roll so hard and crash so hard, and then she would get sick afterwards. She had always rolled hard, but the Yasmin just pushed it into a whole different category. 

This article has an interesting explanation of hormones and MDMA: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/exkzj4/why-are-young-british-girls-dying-from-mdma

I don't think this is the answer to the MehDMA question, because obviously most of the reports are from males. But, I do think there is an interplay between hormones and the experience.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ Do you think the Shulgins would have perpetuated the idea of losing the magic to try to curb usage amongst young people? They widely reported that Ann lost the ability to feel the magic of the drug and never regained it.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> @TripSitterNZ Do you think the Shulgins would have perpetuated the idea of losing the magic to try to curb usage amongst young people? They widely reported that Ann lost the ability to feel the magic of the drug and never regained it.


Yeah Ann and sasha knew the dangers of overuse of mdma and knew it would fry alot of  college kids brains if they used it heavily. Ann was agains't recreational use of mdma she had a bunch of clients she would use mdma with in a psychotherapy and shadow work. The shulgins knew the psychotherauptic benefits in healing trauma with a mdma session and also understood the impact it would have if used to often.


----------



## indigoaura

Spent some time browsing around some of the new DW sites tonight. Wanted to check and see if I could find any pressed pills with doses actually in line with recommended MDMA doses. After browsing extensively, I only saw one listing that included pills with 120 mg (and that was out of my area). Everything else I saw was over 200 mg, with some even advertising 440 mg per pill. Most were in the 300 mg range. And the prices were very low, considering the dose. If vendors/chemists are assuming people will take 1/2 and then 1/2, then the prices should reflect that and basically be for two pills. That is not what I am seeing at all. It all just furthers this concept that they are expecting you to take the 440 mg pill and re-dose afterwards, as they are pricing the pills to allow people to buy multiple pills for one night.

It is just not right, and does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all. Nobody needs to take 440 mg of MDMA at once.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> MDMA magic should induce a strong feeling of level 3 unity between you the enviroment and people around you with the music.


And essentially, this unity builds and comes from within. So solid true MDMA can make you within yourself, with yourself, so that you can recreate your whole universe effectively.

This profound inner peace, harmony and total self acceptance/love is surely missing with the Mehdma, however appatently stimulating, glitzy, exciting, pleasant and enjoyable the other effects are subjectively and outwardly.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Spent some time browsing around some of the new DW sites tonight. Wanted to check and see if I could find any pressed pills with doses actually in line with recommended MDMA doses. After browsing extensively, I only saw one listing that included pills with 120 mg (and that was out of my area). Everything else I saw was over 200 mg, with some even advertising 440 mg per pill. Most were in the 300 mg range. And the prices were very low, considering the dose. If vendors/chemists are assuming people will take 1/2 and then 1/2, then the prices should reflect that and basically be for two pills. That is not what I am seeing at all. It all just furthers this concept that they are expecting you to take the 440 mg pill and re-dose afterwards, as they are pricing the pills to allow people to buy multiple pills for one night.
> 
> It is just not right, and does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all. Nobody needs to take 440 mg of MDMA at once.


I think a part of it is also competition. They can all obviously afford to put more amd more MDMA in the pill, like supermarkets they are spurring each other on, and all still making a killing.

Checking in on ecstasydata last month or so, I swear it appeared the mean average of the higher dosed MDMA pills had gone up.

LOADS of crackers anyway haha, or so you would think.

But then for some time now I have also seen quite a few reports of considerably lower dose pills much more in line with what you are talking about.

I how to say as well that I think the ratio of MDMA to fillers is fairly consistent and hovering around the 50% Mark give or take, for the most part.

And I doubt the bigger pill producers (not bigger pills, bigger operations) really care too much about the logic of the dosage in the pill and how much of it you are supposed to take to them it is almost just the price of milk and the going rate amongst the other competition.

I'm certainly not suggesting that this is the case with everybody but maybe be they are a little less considerate of this than we have assumed.


----------



## Vlad622

I appologize if this question has been discussed already, I haven't yet made it through the entire thread and I couldn't find it through the searching I did --

Has anyone been daring enough to compare a batch of mehmdma to magicmdma through a different roa? IV or snorting it?

I ask because I feel like an important question is whether plasma concentrations of the ingested MDMA are different between subjectively distinct batches of orally-consumed MDMA. If 100mg of mehmdma resulted in lower plasma concentration than 100mg magicmdma, then the question becomes less about differences in the mdma itself and more about the difference in bioavailibility between batches. If, on the other hand, plasma concentrations were identical, then we're stuck with the more difficult question of how mdma's mechanism of action has been altered in the brain.

I ask about different roas because with IV or snorting, plasma concentration would be more or less removed as a variable. If the experience of mehmdma and magicmdma was much more similar through a different roa, that would suggest that the subjective differences with oral dosing is due to differences in bioavailibility rather than the molecule itself.


----------



## indigoaura

@Vlad622 What about anal administration? Would that be an acceptable ROA? Not willing to do IV, and I am not a fan of snorting things at all, so I don't know if that would be the best bet. I also have no magic MDMA for comparison. But, I have plenty of MehDMA, and I would be willing to change up the ROA in the name of science.

This is a great point, BTW, and I do not recall it being discussed extensively in this thread. All of my MehDMA & MDMA experiences have been oral.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

You can experince the magic of magic mdma even through snorting but it will last shorter than taking orally just kick in fast.


----------



## Vlad622

indigoaura said:


> @Vlad622 What about anal administration? Would that be an acceptable ROA? Not willing to do IV, and I am not a fan of snorting things at all, so I don't know if that would be the best bet. I also have no magic MDMA for comparison. But, I have plenty of MehDMA, and I would be willing to change up the ROA in the name of science.
> 
> This is a great point, BTW, and I do not recall it being discussed extensively in this thread. All of my MehDMA & MDMA experiences have been oral.



Should work just as well. And yeah, you don't have to necessarily have magicmdma on hand to compare it to, you could probably get good sense of whether the magic is present based on that experience alone.

One thing that makes me suspect bioavailibility may play a role is that MDMA plasma concentrations don't vary linearly with dose. Basically, as you increase the dose, plasma concentration increases slowly in the low-dose range, then rapidly after a certain dose. As the charts show in the linked study, plasma concentrations increased by about 100 ug/L between a 50mg and a 100mg dose, but then increased by about 250 ug/L between 100mg and 150mg.

There's a certain threshold dose that you must reach before the plasma concentration begins to increase linearly. The authors write "The possibility of a saturation of MDMA metabolism cannot be discarded as the simplest explanation of the observed phenomenon. Alternatively, a more complex explanation could involve an interaction of MDMA metabolites on some of its metabolic pathways."

If something were to prevent a certain percentage of ingested MDMA from entering the blood stream (or just slowed it down enough), it could have a disproportionate effect on the peak plasma concentration, possibly leading to a batch of mehmdma.

I feel like this non-linearity is true in my subjective experience when taking MDMA on a full stomach. Slower absorption of the MDMA would mean that it doesn't saturate the metabolism and leads to significantly lower peak plasma concentration even with the same oral dose. It's not simply a slower onset, but a much less intense experience overall.

It might also explain the mega-dosed pills on the market. Maybe 300mg of mehmdma leads to the same peak plasma concentration as 150mg of magicmdma.


----------



## indigoaura

> It might also explain the mega-dosed pills on the market. Maybe 300mg of mehmdma leads to the same peak plasma concentration as 150mg of magicmdma.



But, it does not really explain why the 300 mg of MehDMA still does not create the "magic." If it was just a dosage issue, wouldn't the higher doses solve the problem?

Also, let's say I try the new ROA, dosage wise, what should I try by that route? Last roll I had was around 150 mg oral.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Stick to your normal dosages. I also wonder if long term rollers don't realize how much tolerance increases over time. Long gone are the days where 100-180 mg would floor me. My tolerance for mdma is very high and will end up with me using on average between 220-300 mg.


----------



## Vlad622

indigoaura said:


> Also, let's say I try the new ROA, dosage wise, what should I try by that route? Last roll I had was around 150 mg oral.



I've never done it myself, so I can't give you any first-hand advice, but I did find this thread on it: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/rectal-admin-of-mdma.569685/

From a quick look around the web, it seems that people say you take about half the dose you would orally  . . . different things about dosing. Couldn't really find a consensus on how to compare the dose to oral. Seems like there are plenty of examples of people using 75-100 mg with this roa.



indigoaura said:


> But, it does not really explain why the 300 mg of MehDMA still does not create the "magic." If it was just a dosage issue, wouldn't the higher doses solve the problem?



Yeah, it doesn't. I guess this theory would predict that a high enough dose of mehmdma would produce more or less the same effect as magicmdma. If I remember correctly, most of the experiences with mehmdma in this thread were at the same doses that you would take normal magicmdma, so maybe the "meh" parts of the roll (lack of increased empathy, lack of pupil dilation, etc.) are just due to lower plasma concentration.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ChemicallyEnhanced said:


> ...because those things often contain very little or even no MDMA. They're often a mix of research chemicals.


To masquerade as MDMA, these research chemicals would have to mislead spectroscopy.  How do you propose, they do that?

As for containing "little or even no MDMA" it is apparent that you've not familiarized yourself with the evidence presented in this thread. For example: *this post*.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> It is just not right, and does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all. Nobody needs to take 440 mg of MDMA at once.


Indeed 440mg does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all.  This can be disastrous for first-time users...and it is, lately.  The fatality statistics reflect it.

Unfortunately, all of it is attributed to competition and marketing - none to pharmacology,



indigoaura said:


> ...in the name of science.


It would be more worthwhile to measure the blood Oxytocin levels before and after administration,


----------



## Phobos

indigoaura said:


> @me.and.emma I think birth control pills have the potential to shift the experience. I had a friend whose reactions abruptly changed when she switched birth control pills to Yasmin. She would roll so hard and crash so hard, and then she would get sick afterwards. She had always rolled hard, but the Yasmin just pushed it into a whole different category.
> 
> This article has an interesting explanation of hormones and MDMA: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/exkzj4/why-are-young-british-girls-dying-from-mdma
> 
> I don't think this is the answer to the MehDMA question, because obviously most of the reports are from males. But, I do think there is an interplay between hormones and the experience.



Most research on MDMA is done on males exclusively due to the periodical hormone level changes in females and the complexity they add to the testing associated with research.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Glubrahnum said:


> Indeed 440mg does not line up with published dose recommendations for MDMA at all.  This can be disastrous for first-time users...and it is, lately.  The fatality statistics reflect it.
> 
> Unfortunately, all of it is attributed to competition and marketing - none to pharmacology,
> 
> 
> It would be more worthwhile to measure the blood Oxytocin levels before and after administration,


All the deaths i have seen from mdma are people taking over a gram of mdma like a bunch of idiots. I have zero emphaty for anybody who dies from mdma because they popped 3-5 high doses pills at one time they have won themselves the Darwin award. I have done 600 mg and used harm reduction to monitor my body heat and used fans to cool myself while i rolled hard was amazing the comedown was beyond awful and made me want to blow my brains out.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> All the deaths i have seen from mdma are people taking over a gram of mdma like a bunch of idiots. I have zero emphaty for anybody who dies from mdma because they popped 3-5 high doses pills at one time they have won themselves the Darwin award. I have done 600 mg and used harm reduction to monitor my body heat and used fans to cool myself while i rolled hard was amazing the comedown was beyond awful and made me want to blow my brains out.


I took 500mg up to 600mg high quality MDMA on numerous occasions admittedly when I had a tolerance usually at festivals in combination with many other substances but on every single occasion I took such a dose I really did not experience any difficulties or adverse sensations or effects at any points not while I was on the role which was always perfectly manageable, and not even suffering any bad or noticeable come down either.

I mean 250mg was always very manageable and comfortable all round but certainly not lacking so doubling that dose simply wasn't enough to cause me any problems personally at the time. 

I'm not really making a point in relation to what you were saying and your own experience which I'm not questioning or trying to draw any inference or conclusion from in relation to my own just sharing that's all. 

Right, back to bed now guys just been entertaining myself briefly after a toilet break.


----------



## Glubrahnum

AutoTripper said:


> I took 500mg up to 600mg high quality MDMA on numerous occasions admittedly when I had a tolerance


Guys, you are very resilient individuals.

To anyone reading this (especially 1st-time users):
Please do not do this just because these resilient individuals lived to tell about it. Limit yourself to 1.5mg of pure racemic 3,4-MDMA Hydrochloride per 1 kg of body weight (0.68mg per 1 lbs) if you are male and 1.3mg per 1kg if you are female (0.59mg per 1 lbs) and read about interactons with any other drugs you are on (including prescription drugs).

You might not be as resilient as they are...


----------



## AutoTripper

Glubrahnum said:


> Guys, you are very resilient individuals.
> 
> To anyone reading this (especially 1st-time users):
> Please do not do this just because these resilient individuals lived to tell about it. Limit yourself to 1.5mg of pure 3,4-MDMA Hydrochloride per 1 kg of body weight (0.68mg per 1 lbs) if you are male and 1.3mg per 1kg if you are female (0.59mg per 1 lbs) and read about interactons with any other drugs you are on (including prescription drugs).


Yes very right mate, and I am sorry to everybody who sees and may be affected by or certainly misled by my comments I must be more consciously mindful to make certain this doesn't happen.

Whenever I recount these past experiences, I am in no way advocating this behaviour and drug consumption I'm certainly not boasting there's no pride in it and I'm not even making any point saying "I took this and it didn't do that or...I was fine...etc"

That really genuinely isn't where I'm coming from and the impression I'm trying to put across.

I have been giving advice on MDMA in various places and I have been very careful and cautious, in line with current harm reduction advice and recommendations.

And I am very aware that doses much lower even then 0.5 g can be potentially fatal for some people in some situations.

I do believe there is a genuine phenomenon whereby why people can take huge amounts of otherwise potentially dangerous substances at certain times in their lives and handle the experience with consummate ease both physically in a biological sense and mentally and emotionally.

I did experience this personally myself and I was very fortunate I suppose to have such a strong biological aptitude to handle these substances without any significant danger or risk to myself.


But so right to spell this out. 500mg is a huge and unecessary dose for the vast majority of people and could be very dangerous certainly would be unlikely to be enjoyable in any sense, despite the fact that such a dose can be perfectly safely tolerated depending on the person and situation but is certainly never recommended.

Really sorry I have not been making this clearer.


Currently in life if I was to take take any more than 100 milligrams I expect it could well be dangerous for me due to my current condition and extreme sensitivity particularly to stimulants I recently took 100mg of caffeine powder and had such a bad reaction to it my nervous system reacted and I had a full-blown panic attack losing circulation in my hands and feet I couldn't even use my hands they clamped up and seized up making it impossible to lift a cup or put my trainers on on to dash to the A&E which is within sight of my front door. 

It was a really frightening experience where I actually felt like I might die at some point but I had some particular issues on that day related to fatigue and malnourishment and high anxiety levels.

But I am especially sensitive to all substances particularly stimulants I have recently been trying kratom powder the past week for the first time and I took just one gram of powder the first time and it was actually way too much for me in a stimulant sense eventually really heavy and rough on my body at that dose which is barely threshold for most people.

My caffeine experience certainly made me rethink my potential MDMA usage for which I would need to be in a significantly stronger condition all round to even consider.


So NO WAY  would I ever be able to take 500mg of MDMA now.

I truly think that would kill me no question, when it was something which did not even pose a risk to me back then when I was remarkably strong and fairly tolerant.


----------



## Vlad622

indigoaura said:


> But, I have plenty of MehDMA, and I would be willing to change up the ROA in the name of science.



Another roa that is worth considering is taking the MDMA liposomally. I posted a thread on this just a few days ago https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/liposomal-mdma.878878/. Basically you blend up powdered MDMA with some fat so that fat molecules encapsulate the MDMA and protect it from being destroyed in the stomach and small intestines, help it get absorbed into the bloodstream, then release it into the blood. Here's a recipe for making liposomal vitamin C at home. You should be able to substitute MDMA for the ascorbic acid: https://www.researchgate.net/post/Protocols_for_liposomal_vitamin_formulations

My last post in that thread, I was thinking that liposomal MDMA may be absorbed more slowly, but reading the studies on liposomal vitamin C, that doesn't seem to be the case.

If, for some reason, the mehmdma has lower bioavailibility than magicmdma, then maybe taking it in liposomal form is the solution. I'd also be curious as to whether taking calcium bicarbonate aka Tums before the mehmdma has any affect.


----------



## epic11

Oddly enough, the 2 connects that gave me the best feelings, are the only 2 i know for certain have been arrested. Little conspiracy? Who knows, but thats coincidental lol


----------



## indigoaura

> It would be more worthwhile to measure the blood Oxytocin levels before and after administration,



I have been looking into that @Glubrahnum 

When I go to websites to order lab tests, I do not see any blood test for oxytocin that is readily available to purchase. 









						Full Service Lab Testing Clinics Near You | Any Lab Test Now
					

ANY LAB TEST NOW® partners with many major, high-quality laboratories throughout the U.S. to provide affordable and comprehensive lab testing services directly.




					www.anylabtestnow.com
				












						Ulta Lab Tests | Get Blood Tests Near You | Any Lab Test Now
					

We offer quick and confidential laboratory testing and health screening services for healthcare professionals and consumers who order blood tests online.




					www.ultalabtests.com
				




I would not be opposed to buying two tests, having one done before, and having the next one done after (as you recommend). But, I need some way to order the test. Suggestions?


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> When I go to websites to order lab tests, I do not see any blood test for oxytocin that is readily available to purchase.


In my area all the major medical labs that perform blood tests for hospitals and small clinics do this test for around $40.  Yes, it involves going to their test center and having your blood drawn by a nurse and prevented from coagulating by citrate. Alternatively, small clinics only draw blood, preserve it and send it out to the lab the same day by courier.  I do not know of any way of doing a quantitative test at home.


----------



## indigoaura

Maybe it is a regional thing? These websites are sites where I can typically order any lab test that I could get from my doctor, and then I can get it done at the lab. However, no test for oxytocin shows up. Quest Lab, Any Lab Test Now, etc. are the major labs that you go to if you have an order from your doctor, but it is not listed there. Similarly, I don't see it on any hormone tests I have had done previously. Maybe the test is not FDA approved here?

Keep in mind, over here, medical care of any kind is a convoluted, abstracted process that makes no sense and costs a lot of $$$.


----------



## psy997

I also wonder if ordering oxytocin for IV, IM, IN, or SubQ administration during MehDMA would be useful? I'm pretty sure a few places I know sell it.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Ok, back after a post-mehdma screw it couple of weeks.

Since my trial with an A/B extraction didn't turn lead into gold, I was wondering if there's anything worth trying next.  Maybe I hadn't fully dried it out after extraction, so my dose was a bit low (any tips on drying greatly appreciated, it takes ages).  Otherwise, if contaminants are the issue, then presumably they're sticking with the mdma during the a/b extraction?

Anything worth trying next?


----------



## Phobos

ThreePointCircle said:


> Ok, back after a post-mehdma screw it couple of weeks.
> 
> Since my trial with an A/B extraction didn't turn lead into gold, I was wondering if there's anything worth trying next.  Maybe I hadn't fully dried it out after extraction, so my dose was a bit low (any tips on drying greatly appreciated, it takes ages).  Otherwise, if contaminants are the issue, then presumably they're sticking with the mdma during the a/b extraction?
> 
> Anything worth trying next?



After A/B, do an acetone wash, then apply gentle heat and it will be dry in 30 minutes tops.
I put the MDMA in a metal cup and use a heater fan as the airflow is not very strong so it can stay close enough to heat the crystals but not send any flying.
Do not use a hairdryer.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> Anything worth trying next?


How about sending the fraction *not containing* MDMA for professional lab analysis.  This is the antisolvent fraction that you normally throw away.  It is supposed to contain the contaminants that were soluble/insoluble in the solvent that MDMA was not.
Of course evaporate the solvents before sending the crap in.



ThreePointCircle said:


> Otherwise, if contaminants are the issue, then presumably they're sticking with the MDMA during the a/b extraction?


If this is true then sending the "crap fraction" for analysis will be useless.
You can try the A/B extraction with different solvents with the hope that one of them will affect the mysterious contaminant differently.

Last, but not least, you can do the* TLC analysis* at home with the system of solvents of your choice.  On a professional store-bought TLC plate ...or even on a piece of paper -  if you're cheap.
TLC is easier than A/B extraction and requires only a small sample.

The homemade* TLC analysis* makes the most sense when one can compare the MehMDMA with the MagicMDMA side-by-side.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

TLC is not going to tell apart mehmdma from magic mdma. TLC is a very low tier way of looking at compounds and is only used by organic chemists to see if their reaction is going foward. No need to fraction anything for analysis HPLC mass spec will show fragments of whatever is in the product down to the microgram containtments


----------



## indigoaura

Been reading listings. Came across a vendor who makes some interesting claims.

First, this listing claims to be washed and re-crystalized and "made in the USA." The vendor calls most products available, "Dutch Dirt" and "Dirty Imports" contaminated with "mercury salts."



> We've found about 15% of the super-lab product is mercury chloride and unfiltered solids -- giving it the tan color. Removing these by products is best accomplished by repeated washing of the MDMA oil base BEFORE CRYSTALLIZATION. Best results require washing until the distilled water (DH2O) used for the wash separates from the MDMA oil base solution and is still clean & crystal clear.



Thoughts?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Been reading listings. Came across a vendor who makes some interesting claims.
> 
> First, this listing claims to be washed and re-crystalized and "made in the USA." The vendor calls most products available, "Dutch Dirt" and "Dirty Imports" contaminated with "mercury salts."
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts?


I think more tan colour is unreacated md2p2 oils. I have been tested for mercury and im fine due to my work enviroment. If any was left in mdma product it would be troublesome for myself. 

I trust very few vendors they are all full of shit and selling dubious quality stuff i stick to the traditional of human to human contacts who bring it through international gangs. All that so called darknet mdma i see young adults on at music festivals or trance parties seems to be trash they have no pupil dilation just grinding there jaw and been a asshole.


----------



## indigoaura

> i stick to the traditional of human to human contacts


That would be great if I had any actual human contacts. Everyone I knew in "the scene" has long ago retired to suburban mini van life.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> If any was left in mdma product it would be troublesome for myself.


Haha, so you are one of the unlucky few who Mercury isn't so good for! It's true what they say, " one man's potion is another man's poison."

Haha sorry man I can't resist a joke, I am intrigued by what you say about mercury testing. You got my imagination firing as to your meaning.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> Haha, so you are one of the unlucky few who Mercury isn't so good for! It's true what they say, " one man's potion is another man's poison."
> 
> Haha sorry man I can't resist a joke, I am intrigued by what you say about mercury testing. You got my imagination firing as to your meaning.


i had my blood tested by a doctor after working with mercury for a few years


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> i had my blood tested by a doctor after working with mercury for a few years


Thanks for elaborating. My imagination really likes to dress things up though before it considers the Logical explanations.

So I was trying to envisage a work situation whereby you had to have your mercury levels tested frequently and they need it to be below a certain level for you to work there and also that there was Mercury exposure at your work call it a "double whammy" as they say in England am I really hate that phrase as well.

So that when your MDMA pills also contain Mercury your levels are elevated above the safety level and your working environment will therefore be even more dangerous to you.

Haha that is the sort of scenario I was running through my head, thankfully you have laid this delusion of mind to rest just in time so I can get a good night's sleep hehe.


----------



## Glubrahnum

TripSitterNZ said:


> TLC is a very low tier way of looking at compounds... No need to fraction anything for analysis HPLC mass spec will show fragments of whatever is in the product down to the microgram containtments


Of course HPLC + MS is superior, however TLC can be done at home,



TripSitterNZ said:


> TLC is a very low tier way of looking at compounds and is only used by organic chemists to see if their reaction is going forward.


I disagree,
Any chromatography (including TLC) can be used to separate and count the components of the sample and differentiate between these components... not only "to see if the reaction is going forward".

This is useful to visualize the solubility of different components in different solvents during the A/B purification.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Im a chemist TLC is a laughable joke that undergrads do in a lab to see if their starting material has reacted. Isomer chromatography is a another beast and involves running columns in substrates that will isolate between them


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> The vendor calls most products available, "Dutch Dirt" and "Dirty Imports" contaminated with "mercury salts."


When such words are used in marketing texts it is an indication, that the dissatisfaction with some of the product is widespread.



indigoaura said:


> We've found about 15% of the super-lab product is mercury chloride and unfiltered solids


Indeed mercuric chloride is used with *some* MDMA synths, but if the "unfiltered solids" were a minority of that 15%, we would read many reports of dead and permanently damaged people.



indigoaura said:


> contaminated with "mercury salts."


If you want to find out about the mercury salts, dissolve 100mg of the suspect powder in half a liter (17 fl oz.) of deionized water and take it to your local water testing center. Present it as water from your new well to be tested for mercury content and other toxic elements.

There are many of such water testing centers in my area for people to test the water from the wells they dig up.
If the government subsidizes them, they can be very cheap or even free.


----------



## Glubrahnum

TripSitterNZ said:


> Im a chemist TLC is a laughable joke that undergrads do in a lab to see if their starting material has reacted. Isomer chromatography is a another beast and involves running columns in substrates that will isolate between them


Yes, it can be used for reaction monitoring, but not only for that.
Yes, other chromatography techniques are another beasts, but *ThreePointCircle* can do TLC at home to have some feedback about his A/B purification. Right now he is operating blindly.

If you want to lend him a HPLC machine with a MS detector, I think he will be eternally grateful.


----------



## indigoaura

The vendor I found replied to my queries and indicates that he/she uses a fractional vacuum distillation to purify MDP2P and Al Hg synthesis. Also indicated that the MDP2P is synthesized from natural safrole. I asked if the product was fully active at doses below 100 mg, and the response was yes. Seems like a good contender for my next test, which will most likely not be until the end of the year. So, at that point, I will have had a 6 month break. 

I revealed a bit of our conversation here, and am curious to see what the vendor thinks. Clearly, he/she has noticed the same issue with the Dutch product.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> The vendor I found replied to my queries and indicates that he/she uses a fractional vacuum distillation to purify MDP2P and Al Hg synthesis.


Since he is admitting to using mercury in his synth method, he's either telling the truth or is too ignorant to falsly claim a different synth route.
Anyway, test it for mercury content if you care about your health.
Besides the local water testing centers, *this* Canadian company is offering a free testing service if you express interest in their toxic metal scavenging products.


----------



## indigoaura

@Glubrahnum - Would you please provide a brief overview of what synth methods contain mercury? I thought that the synth from organic safrole was the synth more likely to produce the magic product (based on what we have talked about here). Is that not what we are looking for? Isn't one of the potential explanations the shift from the safrole Al Hg synthesis to other routes? Would acetone wash and re-crystallization remove mercury contaminants? Vendor also claims multiple acetone washes and re-crystallization.


----------



## indigoaura

Would this work: http://www.filterwater.com/p-344-mercury-drinking-water-test-kit-boris.aspx


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> @Glubrahnum - Would you please provide a brief overview of what synth methods contain mercury? I thought that the synth from organic safrole was the synth more likely to produce the magic product (based on what we have talked about here). Is that not what we are looking for? Isn't one of the potential explanations the shift from the safrole Al Hg synthesis to other routes? Would acetone wash and re-crystallization remove mercury contaminants? Vendor also claims multiple acetone washes and re-crystallization.


mercury would be very rare to be left over. Chemists distill off mdma free base and recrystallize into a salt form. The mercury used is in little amounts to form a Al alguam pretty much all the mercury should of reacted withe the Al in this step if they did the calucations right.   I have never seen any evidence for mecury contamination in mdma products.

PMK also uses mercury if they are going that route. Its a common reduction method for small to medium sized labs to make mdma. There are methods that will make mdma without using mercury aswell leading to a mda/mdma mix


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Would this work: http://www.filterwater.com/p-344-mercury-drinking-water-test-kit-boris.aspx


it has interfernces with chlorine which would not be good with mdma crystals that are a hydrochlroide


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> @Glubrahnum - Would you please provide a brief overview of what synth methods contain mercury? I thought that the synth from organic safrole was the synth more likely to produce the magic product (based on what we have talked about here)


There are several routes to convert Safrole into 3,4-MDMA. Most of them go through the 3.4-MDP2P intermediate and some of them use amalgams ...and some do not.
Amalgams are alloys of mercury. The method you have quoted uses aluminum-mercury alloy (Al-Hg alloy) or an aluminum amalgam as a reducing agent. This type of mercury is *not organic* and as such it is less harmful than organic mercury (e.g. methylmercury, which is quote deadly or debilitating). Just because inorganic mercury is used in the synth, does not mean that it gets converted to organomercury or survives the purification process (how diligent is this process depends on the chemist)

*You cannot determine whether the synth routes use amalgams from the starting precursors alone* (e.g. Safrole or PMK-Gly, Piperonal, Helional, etc...).
You can determine whether Al-Hg was used only by finding mercury content in the finished product ...or by careful analysis of the associated synthesis byproducts (which do not have to contain mercury at all)...or by the explicit declaration of the manufacturer.

P.S.
Al-Hg amalgam is gray. A lot of it would have to make its way to the final product to color it gray (that much aluminum amalgam would make it quite poisonous).  As usual, relaying on the color alone is not a reliable way to judge the quality of the MDMA HCl powder.


----------



## indigoaura

This vendor (who obviously may be lying), is advertising based on the idea that mercury and other contaminants have been removed from the product. If I end up with any, I will try to get a good photo for you. I will also send to Energy Control and pay the $120 for the basic test plus the $60 for the heavy metal analysis. Do you think that will be sufficient?


----------



## G_Chem

This vendor is either a master bullshitter or actually may know what he’s talking about... Indeed the route he specified is, according to my research, is the most likely route to produce “MagicDMA.”  And fractional distillation is key to producing very pure product, it’s what many chemists don’t do on the final freebase unfortunately.

I’d definitely give them a try to see what it’s like..

-GC


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Do you think that will be sufficient?


I will not answer that with certainty.


----------



## indigoaura

I guess a better way to phrase the question is: Do you think that the heavy metal testing done by International Energy control will be equivalent to the heavy metal testing done of water?


----------



## Glubrahnum

To compare them, call both and ask them about their Hg detection threshold, in parts per million (ppm) or parts per billion (ppb).


----------



## oldskoolbee

old hive bee here, some bluelight user pointed me to this thread. Won't be around much but here my input that you might appreciate and therefore a start to work on.

It's called cooking remember? different cooking recipes and procedures results in different outcomes.

you can cook a nice chunk of meat in the microwave and then sear it with a blow torch, appearance and smell will be awesome, but taste and texture (the pleasure) won't be anywhere near as a proper, slow, oven cooked roast.
same goes for chemicals, certain routes just don't produce what's expected or it is of inferior quality.

Leuckart: high quality "MAGIC" mdma plus side products as mda, stimulating, best for clubbing, work intense/time consuming synth, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience

AL/Hg and NaBH4 reduction: best for cleanest "MAGIC" MDMA, milder than Leuckar but more intimacy and sensuality, psychedelic in it's way, work intense/time consuming, specially NaBH4, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience

Pt/Pd hydrogenation: worst product of all, this is your mehMDMA. Very little labour involved, high yielding, once the reaction is set it's just a matter of waiting for completion. Add this to the use of higher mass producing acids as tartaric or citric for the salting and here you have your 300 mg tablets that give the crappy, boring experience that is so common today.

Also: PMK synth has its weak points. In the Hive times people were experimenting with alternate routes to produce pmk from safrole, O2/Wacker was one of them, quickly abandoned because the resulting ketone was inferior and the amine derived from it was weaker and missing what makes mdma special.
So chinese PMK glicidate might be also partially responsible for the missing effects of today's crappy mdma.

So just to clear (or confuse) a bit further: magic and meh are actually the same substance from a formula point of view, that's why no test can detect or differentiate the one from the other.
Why the two produce so different effects? no idea, my experience in pharmacokinetics is very limited.


----------



## majk13

Very interesting entry, I think someone finally explained everything.  I am very happy because I thought that we would never know the truth ...


AL/Hg and NaBH4 reduction- i want this mdma?


----------



## Glubrahnum

oldskoolbee said:


> Pt/Pd hydrogenation: worst product of all, this is your mehMDMA. Very little labour involved, high yielding, once set the reaction is set it's just a matter of waiting for completion. Add this to the use of higher mass producing acids as tartaric or citric for the salting and here you have your 300 mg tablets that give the crappy, boring experience that is so common today.
> 
> Also: PMK synth has its weak points. In the Hive times people were experimenting with alternate routes to produce pmk from safrole, O2/Wacker was one of them, quickly abandoned because the resulting ketone was inferior and the amine derived from it was weaker and missing what makes mdma special.
> So chinese PMK glicidate might be also partially responsible for the missing effects of today's crappy mdma.



So do you know any details of the  *elegant* "*single concerted step*" reaction described in the quote below ? ...and I mean more than a mere "Darzen with hydrogenation on a Pt/Pd catalyst".



> Quote from: https://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory
> 
> Our lab switched [in 2010] to ethyl PMK-glycidate as a precursor. This was unwatched, and we were able to source it from China at a very competitive price,” he said.
> 
> He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn’t just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. “It achieves complex molecular changes in a single concerted step, almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration,”


----------



## Glubrahnum

oldskoolbee said:


> ...magic and meh are actually the same substance from a formula point of view, that's why no test can detect or differentiate the one from the other.


You realize that would be magic indeed ...


----------



## Glubrahnum

oldskoolbee said:


> AL/Hg and NaBH4 reduction: best for cleanest "MAGIC" MDMA,...


Why do you think that a synth route using the mercury aluminum reagent yields the cleanest 3,4-MDMA ?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

oldskoolbee said:


> old hive bee here, some bluelight user pointed me to this thread. Won't be around much but here my input that you might appreciate and therefore a start to work on.
> 
> It's called cooking remember? different cooking recipes and procedures results in different outcomes.
> 
> you can cook a nice chunk of meat in the microwave and then sear it with a blow torch, appearance and smell will be awesome, but taste and texture (the pleasure) won't be anywhere near as a proper, slow, oven cooked roast.
> same goes for chemicals, certain routes just don't produce what's expected or it is of inferior quality.
> 
> Leuckart: high quality "MAGIC" mdma plus side products as mda, stimulating, best for clubbing, work intense/time consuming synth, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience
> 
> AL/Hg and NaBH4 reduction: best for cleanest "MAGIC" MDMA, milder than Leuckar but more intimacy and sensuality, psychedelic in it's way, work intense/time consuming, specially NaBH4, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience
> 
> Pt/Pd hydrogenation: worst product of all, this is your mehMDMA. Very little labour involved, high yielding, once the reaction is set it's just a matter of waiting for completion. Add this to the use of higher mass producing acids as tartaric or citric for the salting and here you have your 300 mg tablets that give the crappy, boring experience that is so common today.
> 
> Also: PMK synth has its weak points. In the Hive times people were experimenting with alternate routes to produce pmk from safrole, O2/Wacker was one of them, quickly abandoned because the resulting ketone was inferior and the amine derived from it was weaker and missing what makes mdma special.
> So chinese PMK glicidate might be also partially responsible for the missing effects of today's crappy mdma.
> 
> So just to clear (or confuse) a bit further: magic and meh are actually the same substance from a formula point of view, that's why no test can detect or differentiate the one from the other.
> Why the two produce so different effects? no idea, my experience in pharmacokinetics is very limited.



I dont even pretend to understand this, but it sounds bloody convincing to me. It stands to reason that mass production involves the easiest, highest yielding methods, but quality is compromised. I find it analogous to furniture making. At one end of the spectrum you have highly skilled craftsmen who take time and effort to produce a quality piece that provides pleasure for years, and at the other you've got IKEA. It does the job, it's still furniture  but ultimately its shit...


----------



## oldskoolbee

Glubrahnum said:


> So do you know any details of the  *elegant* "*single concerted step*" reaction described in the quote below ? ...and I mean more than a mere "Darzen with hydrogenation on a Pt/Pd catalyst".


unfortunately no, I'm just reporting what was the common opinion at the time by some advanced users. My guess would be that two main reactions would be necessary starting from pmk glycidate.


Glubrahnum said:


> You realize that would be magic indeed ...


the proof is in the pudding, you've got both MAGIC and MEH tested at the same time, in different occasions with always the same result, both test the same.
my very personal opinion is that when this kind of substances are made in a pressurized environment some bonds are created in a different way that affects PK


Glubrahnum said:


> Why do you think that a synth route using the mercury aluminum reagent yields the cleanest 3,4-MDMA ?


because no other by products are created, assuming of course that the substances used are of high purity, and everything else is made by the book, freebase distillation and rxstallization.


----------



## Glubrahnum

oldskoolbee said:


> ... you've got both MAGIC and MEH tested at the same time, in different occasions with always the same result, both test the same. My very personal opinion is that when this kind of substances are made in a pressurized environment some bonds are created in a different way that affects PK


The problem with this is that the analysis techniques that I use detect these different bonds by vibrating them with laser light ...and before this detection, different ingredients are sparated by varying interactions with different stationary phases.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> @Glubrahnum - Would you please provide a brief overview of what synth methods contain mercury?


The classical synth routes are described starting from page 680 in *this document*.
Look for the symbol ( Hg ), which is the symbol for mercury.


----------



## oldskoolbee

Glubrahnum said:


> The problem with this is that the analysis techniques that I use detect these different bonds by vibrating them with laser light ...and before this detection, different ingredients are sparated by varying interactions with different stationary phases.


and you haven't been able to spot any differences between meh and magic? i assume you're talking about raman spectroscopy... that doesn't weakens but reinforces what i'm stating, 
at least three different tests has been used, GC/MS/Raman on both substances without spotting any difference that may lead to a more definite result.


----------



## Glubrahnum

oldskoolbee said:


> and you haven't been able to spot any differences between meh and magic?


I saw differences but I got weird results, such as dealers peddling unreacted precursors as MDMA and tartrate salts.  They are described earlier in this thread.  My investigation started with *this post*.
Also, I did only several tests and quickly run out of virgin users in my private social circle that would not be unencumbered by tolerance issues.  I do not procure these drugs, rather I rely on the samples that friends bring to me (this does not happen all that often).  I wish I could freely advertise to do more testing of different drug batches and get more participants for in-vivo testing.



oldskoolbee said:


> GC/MS/Raman on both substances without spotting any difference that may lead to a more definite result.


...which would lend credence to the "potent contaminant" theory.


----------



## indigoaura

I think it is great to see the various synthesis methods summarized and correlated with overall effects. Thanks, @oldskoolbee! However, it still does not uncover the answer to the question of WHY these batches have so much variation. What is happening with these synths that changes the product so much, and how is the product changed (specifically)?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

I would put my mdma into a nmr machine at work but im pretty sure i would get fired for it. Raman is not used to identify compounds unless its a pharma company i suggest you go enroll your self in college and take a chemistry degree instead of reading textbook things and repeating them without understanding the practical application the only time i ever used raman was in undergrad to study vibrational modes of acetonitrile.

@oldskoolbee Those methods line up with how my product are. I know lekucart is used for crystal product around my area due to the fact of been appoarched by a gang years ago wanting to know how to finish there mdma cook with formic acid after there first guy went to prison. I never tell people im a chemist at bars again after that. But it did confirm what methods were been used and why the mdma i use is magic with the mda hints in it.

One pot sythn methods are always trash for anything in chemistry. Instead of MS and IR mdma these batches should be put through a nmr


----------



## Glubrahnum

TripSitterNZ said:


> I would put my mdma into a nmr machine at work but im pretty sure i would get fired for it. Raman is not used to identify compounds unless its a pharma company


I work for a pharma company. You'd know this if you'd read the entire thread

*Here* is the basic info about Raman spectroscopy from the manufacturer of the best machine I use at work.
Notice that the first point on the list of information provided by this analytic method is "*Chemical structure and identity*".


----------



## indigoaura

> i suggest you go enroll your self in college and take a chemistry degree



This is just unnecessary. Why bring the negative vibes?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@Glubrahnum for the TLC, do I just have the sample disolved in water (either starting with the powder, or at the the end of the A/B extraction) and dab that on the plate?  Watching a video on it, it seems a simple enough procedure.

Does the amount of sample put on affect the separation or is it just the size of the dots/blobs?  And do I just use whatever solvent I was using for the extraction, e.g. xylene or DCM?

Final question, I see you probably need to have a uv lamp to sight the spots.  I'm trying to constrain my budget as much as possible so I just looked at the cheapest on ebay.  There are a load of cheap nail uv lamps.  Only thing is, I've heard before of dodgy uv lamps being sold online so I just wanted to avoid something dangerous.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> do I just have the sample disolved in water (either starting with the powder, or at the the end of the A/B extraction) and dab that on the plate?


Yes, dissolve the salt of the drug in a polar solvent (water or isopropyl alcohol).

...however you can apply the oily base of the drug (that you obtain after adding the hydroxide) directly to the plate., because the oily base will not dissolve in a polar solvent like water (it will dissolve in toluene or xylene or hexane, etc, though).

Note that doing the chromatography on the oily base is a separate test than doing it on the salt.
Both can be informative,



ThreePointCircle said:


> Does the amount of sample put on affect the separation or is it just the size of the dots/blobs?


Smaller size of the dots will allow you to see the separation better.



ThreePointCircle said:


> And do I just use whatever solvent I was using for the extraction, e.g. xylene or DCM?


Yes, just do not use any antisolvents.  If it dissolves what you want to analyze then it has a potential to work.  (e.g xylene for the oily base).  Mixtures of solvents work even better.



ThreePointCircle said:


> Final question, I see you probably need to have a uv lamp to sight the spots.  I'm trying to constrain my budget as much as possible so I just looked at the cheapest on ebay.  There are a load of cheap nail uv lamps.  Only thing is, I've heard before of dodgy uv lamps being sold online so I just wanted to avoid something dangerous.


In my original post about this,  I posted a link about a cheap UV laser pointer that works well.  Disco lamps (black lights) and UV banknote testers work well, too.

P.S.
If you use paper as the plate, select the brightest, whitest paper you can find, because it contains the UV brightening dye which helps with visualization.  See *this video*.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Yes, just do not use any antisolvents.  If it dissolves what you want to analyze then it has a potential to work.  (e.g xylene for the oily base).  Mixtures of solvents work even better.



By mixture, do you mean repeat the process on different plates?  I've got xylene, DCM, isopropyl and acetone.  What would be appropriate?

I'll dig up your post regarding the laser pointer, thanks.  And I was planning on getting proper plates because some are going on ebay for not too much.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> By mixture, do you mean repeat the process on different plates?


Yes, salts on one plate and freebases on another plate.



ThreePointCircle said:


> I've got xylene, DCM, isopropyl and acetone.  What would be appropriate?


Acetone is a tricky one, because when it is anhydrous and cold then it does not dissolve MDMA salts.
...but when it sits around uncovered and absorbs water or gets warm, it can start dissolving the salts...leading to product loss when washing salts with it.

MDMA HCl salt is very soluble in DCM.

Xylene is good for the freebase chromatography.  Do not be afraid to mix it with other non-polar solvents.  Mixtures of solvents tend to work better than single solvents.


----------



## Vlad622

oldskoolbee said:


> Add this to the use of higher mass producing acids as tartaric or citric for the salting and here you have your 300 mg tablets that give the crappy, boring experience that is so common today.



I'm no chemist, but could the acid used for salting explain a lot of this? Tartaric and citric acid are multiple times more massive than HCL, so a batch made with those would have significantly lower amounts of active mdma by weight even in a highly purified form. Combine that with the non-linear pharmacokinetics of MDMA, and you could get drastically different peak plasma concentrations. 

Is it also possible that alternate salts could affect absorption rate and bioavailibility?


----------



## Glubrahnum

Yes and most of the industrially produced tartaric acid is the cheapest and non-racemic L-(+)-tartaric acid.
This has already been discussed in this tread.



		Code:
	

MDMA Acetate    111%  mass of the hydrochloride
MDMA BiTartrate 117%  mass of the hydrochloride
MDMA Oxalate    125%  mass of the hydrochloride
MDMA BiCitrate  126%  mass of the hydrochloride
MDMA Phosphate  127%  mass of the hydrochloride
MDMA Sulfate    127%  mass of the hydrochloride


----------



## G_Chem

oldskoolbee said:


> old hive bee here, some bluelight user pointed me to this thread. Won't be around much but here my input that you might appreciate and therefore a start to work on.
> 
> It's called cooking remember? different cooking recipes and procedures results in different outcomes.
> 
> you can cook a nice chunk of meat in the microwave and then sear it with a blow torch, appearance and smell will be awesome, but taste and texture (the pleasure) won't be anywhere near as a proper, slow, oven cooked roast.
> same goes for chemicals, certain routes just don't produce what's expected or it is of inferior quality.
> 
> Leuckart: high quality "MAGIC" mdma plus side products as mda, stimulating, best for clubbing, work intense/time consuming synth, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience
> 
> AL/Hg and NaBH4 reduction: best for cleanest "MAGIC" MDMA, milder than Leuckar but more intimacy and sensuality, psychedelic in it's way, work intense/time consuming, specially NaBH4, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience
> 
> Pt/Pd hydrogenation: worst product of all, this is your mehMDMA. Very little labour involved, high yielding, once the reaction is set it's just a matter of waiting for completion. Add this to the use of higher mass producing acids as tartaric or citric for the salting and here you have your 300 mg tablets that give the crappy, boring experience that is so common today.
> 
> Also: PMK synth has its weak points. In the Hive times people were experimenting with alternate routes to produce pmk from safrole, O2/Wacker was one of them, quickly abandoned because the resulting ketone was inferior and the amine derived from it was weaker and missing what makes mdma special.
> So chinese PMK glicidate might be also partially responsible for the missing effects of today's crappy mdma.
> 
> So just to clear (or confuse) a bit further: magic and meh are actually the same substance from a formula point of view, that's why no test can detect or differentiate the one from the other.
> Why the two produce so different effects? no idea, my experience in pharmacokinetics is very limited.



This falls perfectly in line with what I’ve been saying.  Thank you man for coming in to give your notes!!  Leuckart and Al/Hg give good product but leucky gives that “dance your heart out, 90s raver style” roll whereas Al/Hg gives the clean pure love with less stimulation but all around the truest form of MDMA.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@Glubrahnum are these ok? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERCK-ON...422455?hash=item5b5ca63d37:g:sgEAAOSw58Vam7HG


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> are these ok?


Yes


----------



## epic11

This thread delivers. Super exciting to watch this. In the meantime, ill just keep periodically "testing" new batches in the name of science! haha


----------



## G_Chem

Honestly.. There’s more good info on MDMA variation in this thread then anywhere else on the net.  Some day we’ll get that answer we’ve been wanting, it’s been years but I feel we get closer and closer all the time..

What I would give though for a batch of Leuckart MDMA..  Lol.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Yeah, it would be great if we had access to multiple samples with multiple confirmed synthesis routes and could compare the effects. I am hoping that when the final FDA phase is complete and MDMA becomes a prescription that the taboo of studying it will be lifted somewhat. Maybe then we will see more diverse studies examining effects, production etc.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> This thread delivers. Super exciting to watch this. In the meantime, ill just keep periodically "testing" new batches in the name of science! haha





G_Chem said:


> Honestly.. There’s more good info on MDMA variation in this thread then anywhere else on the net.  Some day we’ll get that answer we’ve been wanting, it’s been years but I feel we get closer and closer all the time..
> 
> What I would give though for a batch of Leuckart MDMA..  Lol.
> 
> -GC


Easy guys. Well Im up ridiculous late hours, tired, stoned and chilled in a dreamy state. Reading your comments put an image in my head. I get visual, symbollic images and visions pop into my imagination all the time. 

The one forming just now, of this thread, was a glowing lantern, drawing in all the flies. 

A good few of you have shown so much passion for getting to the crux of this. I think it is impressive how you have all put your heads together, established a solid backbone and set of premises to the discussion and matter.

The stage and platform has been well established for the cleverer heads to pool together as a thinking cap, with the brainy chemists really taking the reigns and probing at the heart of the matter.

I'll be honest, all the technical stuff goes right over my head. But I do feel that some really good points have been highlighted and a very effective and worthwhile brainstorm has unfolded. With doors of exploration opened up from here.

I mean, I don't think we have "the answer" just yet, but it does appear that a number of crucial factors and varaibles have been identified/raised. And I bet revelation will come from these lines of thought eventually.

Although I'm sure there is still one hell of a twisty wormhole to crawl up to actually unravel anything concrete.

Moving forwards though arguably.  So well done all you clever heads. I was sent along with a different role. They said- Auto, get in there, tell some tales, crack a joke, mix thing up while the guys work on figuring thingd out.

And I did...and you did!


----------



## Wentworth211

So has anyone here ever detected any significant levels of methylmercury in any of these samples? Maybe the result of a botched cook in some rural area by some inexperienced chemist? Or is the idea highly unlikely?


----------



## Glubrahnum

*This thread* is about that issue. I think it is very rare and might be possible only when different synths are done in the same glassware that was not cleaned properly.


----------



## Wentworth211

Glubrahnum said:


> *This thread* is about that issue. I think it is very rare and might be possible only when different synths are done in the same glassware that was not cleaned properly.



Ah thankyou. Would you be able to link me to your original post in this thread about the sample you tested. As I believe it is what the conversation in the other thread is referring to. I went through your posting history but couldn’t seem to find it ?‍


----------



## Glubrahnum

Wentworth211 said:


> I went through your posting history but couldn’t seem to find it ?‍


The messages posted *before* the upgrade of this forum's software, are not indexed (ask the admin why).  I cannot find it through the search fn either. I did not delete it, so it must be there somewhere among my messages. If you want to find it, you just have to read them all.


----------



## Wentworth211

Glubrahnum said:


> The messages posted *before* the upgrade of this forum's software, are not indexed (ask the admin why).  I cannot find it through the search fn either. I did not delete it, so it must be there somewhere among my messages. If you want to find it, you just have to read them all.



Oki doki I’ll have to go through them, you don’t happen to remember a rough date/time so I could narrow it all down. Sorry to be a pain ??

*never mind I found it*


----------



## vash445

Wentworth211 said:


> So has anyone here ever detected any significant levels of methylmercury in any of these samples? Maybe the result of a botched cook in some rural area by some inexperienced chemist? Or is the idea highly unlikely?



* warning Synthesis discussion is banned but surely basic chemistry discussion is entirely warranted, especially given the wide ranging relevance of this topic in particular. I can assure you, reference to the identity of precursors/reductions involved in illicit drug manufacture could never provide enough information to enable those reading the posts to engage in manufacture themselves without A LOT more legwork and understanding

MDMA speciality chemist chiming in so hopefully I have some clout. (developed 3 ways to MDA/MDMA without Glyciate, safrole, Helional etc


I find that VERY unlikely... AL/HG is to low yielding, doesn't scale to 1-5KG batches at all. Dutch prefer catalytic hydrogen with H2,and platnium/jones reagent due to yield, speed and MULTI kilo batches.. AL/HG is like 300 grams tops and very piss poor yield.. Borohydrides are high yielding and easy but slow. 3 days vs 7ish hrs... I could also make walter whites meth without Methylamine directly  and still get a 20% higher yield because this catalyst is so much better

What do the Dutch mean when they say  : "the cold method"  ??
I don´t know exact numbers but I think it is definitely true that in tha Lowlands the main route to MDMA is reduction with Pt/hydrogen...
NaBH4 route gives excellent yields.Only problem is that NaBH4 is expensive and might not be available for certain bees.Yields w/w go over 100% 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




 .
Then there's that platinum dioxide(Adams catalyst) method @ 3 atm H pressure with yields w/w in 90's.
Both methods are pretty cold.NaBH4 rxn contents must be kept under 10C,but i can't remember the temp needed in PtO2 method

The labs in holland use PtO2. I read in the a magazine overthere. Some chemists produced in order of some maffia people, in a week 300 kilo's of MDMA freebase. The gazzing and stuff was done in some other place. The people investigating the dismantelt lab couldn't trace the source of the PtO2.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



I think PtO2 route is cheaper if you re-use your catalyst a few times. Besides that you only need some Methanol, MethylAmine and MDP2P ofcouse.
NaBH4 route is so slow. To many hours work for 1 batch. Not practical. Only if SWIM make it for himself.









						MDP2P to MDMA   route
					

MDP2P to MDMA   route



					www.thevespiary.org
				












						Ecstasy truckload found in Netherlands – DW – 02/10/2017
					

A truckload of ingredients for making a billion Ecstasy pills has been found by Dutch police. They say the lorry was found in a southern Zeeland province village, across the border from Belgium's port city of Antwerp.




					www.dw.com
				



The haul included 100 canisters of hydrogen


----------



## Wentworth211

vash445 said:


> * warning Synthesis discussion is banned but surely basic chemistry discussion is entirely warranted, especially given the wide ranging relevance of this topic in particular. I can assure you, reference to the identity of precursors/reductions involved in illicit drug manufacture could never provide enough information to enable those reading the posts to engage in manufacture themselves without A LOT more legwork and understanding
> 
> I find that VERY unlikely... AL/HG is to low yielding, doesn't scale to 1-5KG batches at all. Dutch prefer catalytic hydrogen with H2,and platnium/jones reagent due to yield, speed and MULTI kilo batches.. AL/HG is like 300 grams tops and very piss poor yield.. Borohydrides are high yielding and easy but slow. 3 days vs 7ish hrs... I could also make walter whites meth without Methylamine and still get a 20% higher yield because this catalyst is so much better
> 
> What do the Dutch mean when they say  : "the cold method"  ??
> I don´t know exact numbers but I think it is definitely true that in tha Lowlands the main route to MDMA is reduction with Pt/hydrogen...
> NaBH4 route gives excellent yields.Only problem is that NaBH4 is expensive and might not be available for certain bees.Yields w/w go over 100%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> Then there's that platinum dioxide(Adams catalyst) method @ 3 atm H pressure with yields w/w in 90's.
> Both methods are pretty cold.NaBH4 rxn contents must be kept under 10C,but i can't remember the temp needed in PtO2 method
> 
> The labs in holland use PtO2. I read in the a magazine overthere. Some chemists produced in order of some maffia people, in a week 300 kilo's of MDMA freebase. The gazzing and stuff was done in some other place. The people investigating the dismantelt lab couldn't trace the source of the PtO2.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think PtO2 route is cheaper if you re-use your catalyst a few times. Besides that you only need some Methanol, MethylAmine and MDP2P ofcouse.
> NaBH4 route is so slow. To many hours work for 1 batch. Not practical. Only if SWIM make it for himself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MDP2P to MDMA   route
> 
> 
> MDP2P to MDMA   route
> 
> 
> 
> www.thevespiary.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ecstasy truckload found in Netherlands – DW – 02/10/2017
> 
> 
> A truckload of ingredients for making a billion Ecstasy pills has been found by Dutch police. They say the lorry was found in a southern Zeeland province village, across the border from Belgium's port city of Antwerp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dw.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The haul included 100 canisters of hydrogen



Yeah I believe the sample that was tested that sparked my interest was sold as mdma but however only contained the precursor not the final product as well as methamphetamine. This sample also contained an amount of Methylmercury. Made me wonder how many people unknowingly consumed product from the same batch and how the Mercury made it into the finished product..


----------



## vash445

Wentworth211 said:


> Yeah I believe the sample that was tested that sparked my interest was sold as mdma but however only contained the precursor not the final product as well as methamphetamine. This sample also contained an amount of Methylmercury. Made me wonder how many people unknowingly consumed product from the same batch and how the Mercury made it into the finished product..



contained the precursor not the final product as well as methamphetamine 

likely answer the meth was made by AL/HG backyard chemist and didnt purify the meth enough


----------



## Wentworth211

Has anybody here ever consumed a pressed pill containing meth before? If so what did it feel like in comparison to mdma? A group of us while in a rural area obtained some caps one night from a local who said quote “he cut it from the rock himself” claiming to be mdma. I Myself didn’t have much maybe half the cap, however it was a very different feeling to mdma, not much of any euphoria and a lot of energy, I ended up running around and then went to bed and wet myself. One of the other people with me was complaining he couldn’t see properly, anyway the next days were horrid, shakes anxiety, depersonalisation that kinda thing. The other bloke I was with who has done quite a lot of md and cocaine in his life was complaining of stomach aches and chest pain all week, he is usually pretty tough with that kind of stuff, his vision corrected itself luckily. We didn’t have much but whatever it was turned all of us off ever trying anything mdma like again haha. Does this sound like meth or something to any of you?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Wentworth211 said:


> Has anybody here ever consumed a pressed pill containing meth before? If so what did it feel like in comparison to mdma? A group of us while in a rural area obtained some caps one night from a local who said quote “he cut it from the rock himself” claiming to be mdma. I Myself didn’t have much maybe half the cap, however it was a very different feeling to mdma, not much of any euphoria and a lot of energy, I ended up running around and then went to bed and wet myself. One of the other people with me was complaining he couldn’t see properly, anyway the next days were horrid, shakes anxiety, depersonalisation that kinda thing. The other bloke I was with who has done quite a lot of md and cocaine in his life was complaining of stomach aches and chest pain all week, he is usually pretty tough with that kind of stuff, his vision corrected itself luckily. We didn’t have much but whatever it was turned all of us off ever trying anything mdma like again haha. Does this sound like meth or something to any of you?


I have done a meth pill before that also had some mdma in it but mainly meth. The intial rush depends on how much meth and the quality of it. The meth in my country is pure d-meth from the golden triangle and china. North american meth is weak as fuck compared to asian meth. So for this strong d-meth the rush is insane tho not as a strong as smoking it its still pretty good. The stimulation is on another level just shaking and you get really horny meth is the ultimate stimulant. for myself the meth high feels very clean way cleaner than stimulant i have done in my life no anxiety just like i am super man and can now do anything i set my mind to it also makes me more angry and very inflated ego and gives me the delusion i  could easily knock anybody out if came to down to  a fist fight. I got pins and needles from the pin all over my body my eyes even more wide open than mdma and a extreme urge to dose more. a meth pill will last a very long time and you will be up for over 20 hours. Wetting yourself doesn't sound like meth. I didn't get pains on meth though i feel really fucking burnt and had mad cravings for more cause i loved it so much. Vision can be impaired a bit due to your eyes vibrating hardcore while that stimulated. Mabye weak american meth does those effects but i know pure asian d-meth is even better than mdma.


----------



## vash445

NA meth is P2P that is heavily cut with N- iso to give P2P meth that SHARD look... racemic meth cannt make shards like tha naturally *Isopropylbenzylamine*

It has previously come to the attention of the DEA due to its use by illicit methamphetamine manufacturers as a diluting agent. This compound is a chain isomer of methamphetamine that exhibits the same chemical formula and molar mass giving their hydrochloride salts similar physical properties such as relatively close melting points, and comparable appearance. Consequently it can be used as a substitute or diluent of methamphetamine without this being obvious to users, though the differing melting points and various attributes of its presentation, such as softer or more easily broken crystals have been noted as a possible indication of its presence


----------



## vash445

Speaking of which and the 23 compounds  GC/MS might miss on MDMA. I wonder if MD*Isopropylbenzylamine* or similar is around... It's such a common cut in meth and seem t be missed in lab results. would make sense because the cut aka as "sleepy meth"

"The bleach test is not always 100% accurate but, it is a good guide to use when you’re buying some and you are unsure about what you are buying. If I were buying some meth and did a bleach test and got the same results as you got then I would move on to other ways of testing it before I bought. Since you became ill in addition to the failed bleach test I would think you got a hold of either some fake Meth or n-Isopropylbenzylamine hydrochloride which is the chemical name for it otherwise known as ISO."









						I got some crystal meth, and I have been getting really sick. I was clean for a year after a 6-year run, then I ran into an old partner. ...
					

Answer (1 of 18): I am a (recovered) addict. And things happened exactly the way they were supposed to.  Six months of sobriety on crystal. Now you have a taste of sobriety! Not many people can do that. Give yourself a pat on the back.  But then something happened. You encountered someone from a ...




					www.quora.com
				




"Apparently it makes people get "brain zaps" where they just blank out for a fraction of a second, it makes them feel sleepy immediately after using it, and it makes them act like heroin addicts, just blankly staring into space while they keep using it over and over, chasing a high that never comes. Apparently real meth addicts build shit out of spoons and old bicycle parts or whatever, they don't just sit there using it over and over."




			Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Street drug analysis / harm reduction - Powered by XMB 1.9.11
		


The last one is HIGHLY intersting because it is matching our feeling of  reports


----------



## Glubrahnum

vash445 said:


> I wonder if MD*Isopropylbenzylamine* or similar is around... It's such a common cut in meth and seem t be missed in lab results. would make sense because the cut aka as "sleepy meth"


Do you mean this ?


If "yes" then this is a legal research chemical *CAS 68291-92-9* and it can be easily found in Canada and China for $50 / 100mg and since it is an isobary of MDMA, it can mimic MDMA in a Mass Spectrometer.

I wonder if it is "sleepy", too.

It would be a good chemical to test the accuracy of a Testing Center with


----------



## Glubrahnum

Below are similar 1-phenyl-propyl-*1*-amines, which are MDMA isobaries, too:


(1,3-benzodioxol-5-ylmethyl)propylamine  (CAS 68291-93-0)
2-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)propan-2-yl(methyl)amine  (CAS 1221725-76-3)
1-(1,3-Benzodioxol-5-yl)-N-methyl-1-propanamine   (CAS 127292-43-7)  ...also known as "MALPHA"
_N_-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-ylmethyl)-_N_-methylethanamine (PubChem CID 584519)

The last one is not in any of my spectroscopy libraries but it can be legally purchased *here*.


P.S.
_The list of isobaries, I had posted before, did not contain these 5 compounds.
If you add the 2,3-methylenedioxyphenyl analogues of these 5 molecules, then the number of theses new compounds increases to 10._


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@Glubrahnum for the tlc plate to fluoresce, don't you have to match the uv source?  Those plates I've ordered are 254nm, and that seems to restrict my uv lamp choices.


----------



## vash445

Glubrahnum said:


> Do you mean this ?
> View attachment 14908
> 
> If "yes" then this is a legal research chemical *CAS 68291-92-9* and it can be easily found in Canada and China for $50 / 100mg and since it is an isobary of MDMA, it can mimic MDMA in a Mass Spectrometer.
> I wonder if it is "sleepy", too.
> 
> It would be a good chemical to test the accuracy of a Testing Center with



@*Glubrahnum*


YES exactly!!! Sorry i'm so bad with nomenclature.. All i ever cared about was making it from unwatched chems XD I tried looking and didn't see it listed so I was like HUMM... considering N-iso in meth it was an idea


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> for the tlc plate to fluoresce, don't you have to match the uv source?


Yes. I should have told you about this earlier.


----------



## Goodwalt

I really like this new MDIsopropylbenzylamine avenue. Does TLC detect this compound?


----------



## Glubrahnum

Goodwalt said:


> I really like this new MDIsopropylbenzylamine avenue. Does TLC detect this compound?


I don't have a forensic sample of this compound so I cannot try it.
...but you can read some anecdotal "evidence" about TLC on isopropylbenzylamine *here*.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Yes. I should have told you about this earlier.


Ah ok, struggling to find an inexpensive 254nm lamp at the moment...


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> Ah ok, struggling to find an inexpensive 254nm lamp at the moment...


Is *this* inexpensive?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Is *this* inexpensive?


That would be ok, but I was looking for one in my country because of delivery times.  Thanks for the link though


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I can get tubes pretty cheap.  I guess I just need to work out what to plug them in to


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> I can get tubes pretty cheap.  I guess I just need to work out what to plug them in to


Tubes of *this shape* and size can be plugged into regular fluorescent fixtures.
If the tube's length and terminals matches the socket, it will be fine 90% of the time.

A UVC highpass or bandpass filter is a good addition to the enclosure because these UV tubes also emit a little of visible light, which can overwhelm the fluorescence.


----------



## epic11




----------



## epic11

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7815 - Ecstasy, 7815
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




Interesting new one up on e-data. Sender expects it to be mdma, and was sold as mdma. Will be cool to see if they take care of the payment issue and we get a result on this one.


----------



## vash445

Glubrahnum said:


> I don't have a forensic sample of this compound so I cannot try it.
> ...but you can read some anecdotal "evidence" about TLC on isopropylbenzylamine *here*.



I don't even think energy control  has a forensic sample of isopropylbenzylamine TBH


----------



## Glubrahnum

vash445 said:


> Speaking of which and the 23 compounds  GC/MS might miss on MDMA.


For example, the compound #7 depicted below (PubChem CID 85777948 ) elutes at the same time on GS as 3,4-MDMA and has the same ion fragmentation on MS as 3,4-MDMA.



*Here* you can read the paper where this is documented.



> _...compounds #3 and #7 continued to display very similar elution properties and mass spectra.
> This similarity in retention properties was made more significant because compound #3 was 3,4-MDMA_


----------



## Glubrahnum

This GC/MS challenging 2-(1,3-benzodioxol-4-yl)-_N_-ethylethanamine  (PubChem CID 85777948 ) is very similar to the _N_-(1,3-benzodioxol-4-ylmethyl)propan-1-amine   (PubChem CID 14153432), which was mentioned in *this post* (in the P.S.)



Maybe the latter one elutes and fragments similarly to the 3,4-MDMA, too.

*Q:* Would any of the synth routes, that have started to be used in last 5 years, produce these compounds as inadvertent byproducts?


----------



## indigoaura

I feel like this conversation just went to a new level. Exciting stuff.

So, if I am reading this correctly...someone could legally order one of these compounds and send it to a lab. They could say it was sold as MDMA and see if the lab indicates it is MDMA or something else. This would provide irrefutable evidence that one of the isobaries is undetected by GCMS lab testing. Furthermore, the lab could then be informed and advised to improve their overall methods.

Also, when you think about it, the ultimate "heist" would be for the mega labs to be KNOWINGLY making something legal, selling it as MDMA, and not running the risk of legal action for a controlled substance.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> So, if I am reading this correctly...someone could legally order one of these compounds and send it to a lab. They could say it was sold as MDMA and see if the lab indicates it is MDMA or something else.


Yes, although these Canadian RC suppliers sell only to companies and edu. institutions.



indigoaura said:


> This would provide irrefutable evidence that one of the isobaries is undetected by GCMS lab testing.


Do you want to start a KickStarter campaign to collect funds for purchasing forensic samples of these 32 isobaric compounds and sending them out to test the Test Centers ?



indigoaura said:


> Furthermore, the lab could then be informed and advised to improve their overall methods.


Do you think they would improve their analysis methods immediately after learning about the problem or only after more PR pressure was applied ?



indigoaura said:


> Also, when you think about it, the ultimate "heist" would be for the mega labs to be KNOWINGLY making something legal, selling it as MDMA, and not running the risk of legal action for a controlled substance.


That would be something, especially in the light of these 2,3-methylenedioxy precursors, which I have detected last year, but nothing short of a reliable field-test would stop such practices.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

They are not been produced at all during any synth methods thats really streching alot of things. 

Considering that pmk is the starting material it would be impossible for those things to be created during a mdma lab.

Those things would also not react the same way with all testing kits. They would also be easily distinguishable in numerous NMR methods.


----------



## Glubrahnum

NMR tests are not done by these Testing Centers very often.

IMO the chemical shifts in the 1D hydrogen NMR can be conflated between some of these isobaries.
Carbon NMR would be more definite, but that is done even less frequently than hydrogen NMR.
NMR is a *bulk* analysis technique and without separation of mixtures by e.g. GC or HPLC, some NMR peaks belonging to different compounds can overlap and be obscured.

Last but not least, 1D NMR cannot differentiate stereoisomers.


----------



## Glubrahnum

TripSitterNZ said:


> They are not been produced at all during any synth methods thats really streching alot of things.


Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?

I certainly don't.  Especially this one:


> Quote from: https://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory
> 
> Our lab switched [in 2010] to ethyl PMK-glycidate as a precursor. This was unwatched, and we were able to source it from China at a very competitive price,” he said.
> 
> He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn’t just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. “It achieves complex molecular changes in a *single concerted step*, almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration,”


How about you?


----------



## vash445

Glubrahnum said:


> Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?
> 
> I certainly don't.  Especially this one:
> 
> How about you?





Glubrahnum said:


> Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?
> 
> I certainly don't.  Especially this one:
> 
> How about you?



Holy crap.


> He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn’t just feasible, he told me; it was beautiful. “It achieves complex molecular changes in a *single concerted step*, almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration,”




So someone DID figure out the one pot? holyshit!!! to my knowledge this isnt discussed on the hyperlab at all.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> I feel like this conversation just went to a new level. Exciting stuff.
> 
> So, if I am reading this correctly...someone could legally order one of these compounds and send it to a lab. They could say it was sold as MDMA and see if the lab indicates it is MDMA or something else. This would provide irrefutable evidence that one of the isobaries is undetected by GCMS lab testing. Furthermore, the lab could then be informed and advised to improve their overall methods.
> 
> Also, when you think about it, the ultimate "heist" would be for the mega labs to be KNOWINGLY making something legal, selling it as MDMA, and not running the risk of legal action for a controlled substance.


I feel like they would send it to a lab... and CUT it with MDMA like the N-iso meth.. but straight out subbing with a lab in china is entirely possibly.. never thought of that...


----------



## vash445

Glubrahnum said:


> Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?
> 
> I certainly don't.  Especially this one:
> 
> How about you?


MDMA via Helional via curtis is the new one...








						The DARK Side of Total Synthesis: Strategies and Tactics in Psychoactive Drug Production
					

Humankind has used and abused psychoactive drugs for millennia. Formally, a psychoactive drug is any agent that alters cognition and mood. The term “psychotropic drug” is neutral and describes the entire class of substrates, licit and ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Also some OZ scientist have found MDP2P from Helional via a novel rearrangement... I have asked MULTIPLE scientist with school email etc. so I have no idea on impurtities. and still nothing :/


			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322565001_Short_Communication_A_Novel_Synthesis_of_34-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone_MDP2P_from_Helional
		


I have a few unique routes as well. One going thru the route OF BK-MDMA and wacking off that double bond...


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> They are not been produced at all during any synth methods thats really streching alot of things.
> 
> Considering that pmk is the starting material it would be impossible for those things to be created during a mdma lab.
> 
> Those things would also not react the same way with all testing kits. They would also be easily distinguishable in numerous NMR methods.


. They would also be easily distinguishable in numerous NMR methods. Well for one ENERGY control uses...
*UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis)*: This technique is used in the quantification of MDMA and 2C-B so ya.. I think xtcdata is the same
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

* Process and techniques:*

*Gas Chromatography–Mass Spectrometry (GC-MS)*: We use this system to separate and identify most compounds. We perform a first-screening analysis with this technique to detect compounds. We also use GC-MS to quantify cocaine, amphetamine, benzodiazepines, cannabis and some other drugs.
*Liquid Chromatography–Mass Spectrometry (LC-MS)*: Using this system we can quantify substances that can be degraded at high temperatures like LSD or Modafinil. We can also quantify drugs that require high precision techniques such as fentanyl.
*Ion Trap-Mass Spectrometry (IT-MS)*: This process is used to calculate the molecular mass of a compound and perform fragmentation techniques in order to detect substances that cannot be identified by GC-MS. This technique is used to investigate new compounds and confirm any inconclusive results.
*High-Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC)*: We use a HPLC linked to an ultraviolet detector (HPLC-UV), mainly for quantifying LSD.
*UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis)*: This technique is used in the quantification of MDMA and 2C-B






						Drug Testing Service | International Energy Control
					






					energycontrol-international.org


----------



## vash445

Glubrahnum said:


> Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?
> 
> I certainly don't.  Especially this one:
> 
> How about you?


*EC uses UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis)*: This technique is used in the quantification of MDMA and 2C-B so ya.. I think xtcdata is the same. 

Do you know if they would react the same to that test as well?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Glubrahnum said:


> Do you know all the modern synth methods and their byproducts?
> 
> I certainly don't.  Especially this one:
> 
> How about you?


Yes. 

Thats old news one pot pmk methods were invented in a jail cell by a ex bayer dutch chemical engineer in late 90s early 2000s and used as early as 2003 in australian mdma labs

nothing new they have been around for a while.

It doesn't take a chemist to realize the 3,4 postions are the starting postions in every starting precouser to mdma including safrole


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> Yes.
> 
> Thats old news one pot pmk methods were invented in a jail cell by a ex bayer dutch chemical engineer in late 90s early 2000s and used as early as 2003 in australian mdma labs
> 
> nothing new they have been around for a while.
> 
> It doesn't take a chemist to realize the 3,4 postions are the starting postions in every starting precouser to mdma including safrole






NOOOO pill of the gods? converting the glyciate is converted to MDP2P ketone with acid... then converting to MDMA.  It is a know and well documented MDMA route, 2 steps from glycidate which should make 50/50 R/S MDMA... This is saying Glycidate to MDMA in a *single concerted step!!! HUGE DEAL*

The old Glyciate route has been around since at least TS2 in 1998 located page 95... barium posted success in 2003/4 he was dutch I believe. Rhodium also as well in 2003. This was the route he went I know what you are talking about...  The guy your talking about def didn't create ANYTHING NOVEL or unique DAL CARSON for DEA talked  D wrote about this method in his 1990 forensic article _An Evaluation of the Potential for Clandestine Manufacture of 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) Analogs and Homologs_ (scroll down to the "Precursors" section). In that article, Das Cason references it from Elks, J. and Hey, D. H., "_?-3,4-Methylenedioxyphenylisopropylamine_," Journal of the Chemical Society, 15-16 (1943) as one of the known routes to MDP2P in the scientific literature. That 1943 article has been on Rhodium's Archive probably from 2003 onward since August 2003 is when Rhodium posted that article at the hive. In that 1943 paper, the authors mention the "recent publication" of British Patent GB519894 "which directs attention to this route to substituted ?-phenylisopropylamines from the corresponding substituted benzaldehydes" and they claim to have started work on this route in 1939!


Think or lookup the Aminomercuration  of safrole to MDMA!!! It doesn't go to ketone just sassy to MDMA one pot same idea... NOONE on the hive or HYPERLAB have a "1 POT" .. A  close to 1 pot exists from helional to MDA...

This would prove it was an enantiomer dominance because the glycidate is has that and it's the only way possible avoiding the glyciate... this rabbit hole gets weirder and weirder.. and all it can can be causing the same or similar causes WOW the rabbit hole deepens...
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This guy right?
There's an ebook called 'Pills Of God' on Amazon about one of the guys involved in the discovery of this process, it happened much earlier than 2012 though.

He was a Dutch cook and flew to Shanghai to a factory where they had dozens of tons of PMK they couldn't sell because it had been recently banned. He put 2mil upfront he borrowed off the author of the book and had the factories entire stock converted into this new precursor and shipped a bit to Australia and the rest to Europe. The author of the book was an Australian cook the Dutch guy met when they were both in jail in the US a decade or so earlier.

Unfortunately the dutch cook had a bad stroke and became basically a vegetable, and the Australian guy got busted running the largest MDMA lab my country had ever seen (He pulled off a single reaction yielding more than 500kg of MDMA) and got 25 years hard time in maximum security. You can write to him in prison and he responds, his name is Steven Spaliviero.
____________________________________________________________________

Def not one pot he just convert GLYCIDATE in a 2 step reaction...  the 1 pot as described is TRULY almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration ..NOONE on the hive has a 1 pot... it has to make ketone first


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> NOOOO pill of the gods? converting the glyciate is converted to MDP2P ketone with acid... then converting to MDMA.  It is a know and well documented MDMA route, 2 steps from glycidate which should make 50/50 R/S MDMA... This is saying Glycidate to MDMA in a *single concerted step!!! HUGE DEAL*
> 
> The old Glyciate route has been around since at least TS2 in 1998 located page 95... barium posted success in 2003/4 he was dutch I believe. Rhodium also as well in 2003. This was the route he went I know what you are talking about...  The guy your talking about def didn't create ANYTHING NOVEL or unique DAL CARSON for DEA talked  D wrote about this method in his 1990 forensic article _An Evaluation of the Potential for Clandestine Manufacture of 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) Analogs and Homologs_ (scroll down to the "Precursors" section). In that article, Das Cason references it from Elks, J. and Hey, D. H., "_?-3,4-Methylenedioxyphenylisopropylamine_," Journal of the Chemical Society, 15-16 (1943) as one of the known routes to MDP2P in the scientific literature. That 1943 article has been on Rhodium's Archive probably from 2003 onward since August 2003 is when Rhodium posted that article at the hive. In that 1943 paper, the authors mention the "recent publication" of British Patent GB519894 "which directs attention to this route to substituted ?-phenylisopropylamines from the corresponding substituted benzaldehydes" and they claim to have started work on this route in 1939!
> 
> 
> Think or lookup the Aminomercuration  of safrole to MDMA!!! It doesn't go to ketone just sassy to MDMA one pot same idea... NOONE on the hive or HYPERLAB have a "1 POT" .. A  close to 1 pot exists from helional to MDA...
> 
> This would prove it was an enantiomer dominance because the glycidate is has that and it's the only way possible avoiding the glyciate... this rabbit hole gets weirder and weirder.. and all it can can be causing the same or similar causes WOW the rabbit hole deepens...
> ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> This guy right?
> There's an ebook called 'Pills Of God' on Amazon about one of the guys involved in the discovery of this process, it happened much earlier than 2012 though.
> 
> He was a Dutch cook and flew to Shanghai to a factory where they had dozens of tons of PMK they couldn't sell because it had been recently banned. He put 2mil upfront he borrowed off the author of the book and had the factories entire stock converted into this new precursor and shipped a bit to Australia and the rest to Europe. The author of the book was an Australian cook the Dutch guy met when they were both in jail in the US a decade or so earlier.
> 
> Unfortunately the dutch cook had a bad stroke and became basically a vegetable, and the Australian guy got busted running the largest MDMA lab my country had ever seen (He pulled off a single reaction yielding more than 500kg of MDMA) and got 25 years hard time in maximum security. You can write to him in prison and he responds, his name is Steven Spaliviero.
> ____________________________________________________________________
> 
> Def not one pot he just convert GLYCIDATE in a 2 step reaction...  the 1 pot as described is TRULY almost like watching a solar system of planets align. ‘Elegant’ is a good word for it, too. It’s the sort of thing that anyone [any organic chemist] could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration ..NOONE on the hive has a 1 pot... it has to make ketone first


That book author is the mdmda i use to mid in 2000s the people that went under with him and still in jail are people i use to get amazing mdma off from those aussies. Sydney was fucking insane during his time and the pigs came and ruined all the fun. he is also out of prison his partner was a crazy bitch and tried to get hits done on witnesses


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> Another novel route is dutch labs starting with helional Cas number 1205-17-0  around with the surge in people reporting mehmdma. Maybe this very unknown precouser could a be a source of the trash stuff.



NOT really. HELIONAL is only good for MDA. A "NEW MDMA" route via a curtius rearrangement was published in 2019, so unless someone got really creative beforehand doubtful. Not wise for chemist to stay to far off established routes...

That MDA is that "DIRT Brown" MDA I've been told. looks like dirt, taste like shit, gets you fucked upped. Can you get to MDMA from helional Yes but like piperonal its best for MDA


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> I can see several ways they could do this transformation beckman rearrangement via oxime to amide then hofmann to get rid of one carbon to give MDA (unless the isocyanate can be trapped and reduced in situ to give MDMA which would be truly novel) or oxidation to carboxylic acid formation of amide and then hofmann to MDA. MDA can be converted to MDMA but it is not really that straight forward. There are alternatives to Hofmann but Hofmann is cheap.
> All pretty poor compared to PMK glycidate, for that reason it is likely that most of the commercial MDMA is the route going PMK glycidate to PMK then reductive amination. That is the easiest route without involving controlled precursors and most likely to be used.
> 
> Glubrahnum I suggest you count the number of carbons on helional... I'm glad you have a job with fancy toys but I disagree with the idea that isobaric compounds will fool GCMS, They won't and no you don't need expensive columns, a short DB5 will separate the isomers as the paper way back in this thread showed.
> MDMA is still MDMA, but what else is present is probably part of the issue and I doubt it is synthesis by-products.
> 
> This is academically interesting but I think you are looking too hard for one answer when there are several.






			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322565001_Short_Communication_A_Novel_Synthesis_of_34-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone_MDP2P_from_Helional
		




The Shulze lab recently published an MDMA synthesis that features a Curtius rearrangement (Scheme 27).89Treatment of helional (157) with sodium propionate and propionic anhydride resulted in a Perkin reaction to give unsaturated carboxylic acid 158. Olefin hydrogenation followed by acyl chloride synthesis gave (±)-159. At this point, generation of the acyl azide and subsequent Curtius rearrangement provided an isocyanate. Exposure of this intermediate to t-BuOK gave the corresponding Boc carbamate. N-Methylation followed by acid mediated Boc deprotection provided (±)-MDMA (129) which was isolated as its oxalate salt.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6205722/#!po=52.5751


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Tubes of *this shape* and size can be plugged into regular fluorescent fixtures.
> If the tube's length and terminals matches the socket, it will be fine 90% of the time.
> 
> A UVC highpass or bandpass filter is a good addition to the enclosure because these UV tubes also emit a little of visible light, which can overwhelm the fluorescence.



I think I'm now sorted, thanks


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> I think I'm now sorted, thanks


Good. To become even better, get yourself more solvents, because you need room to experiment to get yourself the best mixture (solvent system) to achieve good sample separation on that plate.  If you live in an oppressive country where buying solvents is jailbait, even an automotive starting fluid is worth a try because it contains diethyl ether and heptane.  You can even separate them *like this*.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Good. To become even better, get yourself more solvents, because you need room to experiment to get yourself the best mixture (solvent system) to achieve good sample separation on that plate.  If you live in an oppressive country where buying solvents is jailbait, even an automotive starting fluid is worth a try because it contains diethyl ether and heptane.  You can even separate them *like this*.


I don't seem to have any trouble getting solvents.  What I have is DCM, Xylene, Isopropyl, Acetone.  What else do you recommend?


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> I don't seem to have any trouble getting solvents.  What I have is DCM, Xylene, Isopropyl, Acetone.  What else do you recommend?


Butanone (MEK) and these heavy linear alkanes like Hexane and Heptane ...and out of non-linear ones maybe Dioxane.

Also, for developing non-fluorescent plates, elemental iodine and potassium permanganate are handy (yes, I know you have fluorescent ones...but you can always run out).


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Butanone (MEK) and these heavy linear alkanes like Hexane and Heptane ...and out of non-linear ones maybe Dioxane.



Thanks, got Butanone and Heptane on order for now.


----------



## majk13

Welcome back.

 I made contact with a person who is a chemist in the Polytechnic department, I asked him if the same substance differing only in the method of synthesis in which it was received can affect the human body differently. 

His answer: "Often the properties of different substances depend on the method of preparation. This is due to many factors, such as impurities formed during synthesis, or the polymorphic form in which the substance crystallizes"

 Everything translated by the translator so sorry for errors ...

@Glubrahnum: what additional questions could I ask?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@majk13 I think its coming down to:

1) What unwanted byproducts are commonly produced by the various synthesis routes
2) How to get rid of them or test for them in a way people can do at home


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@Glubrahnum just thinking ahead, once I've tlc and I have the separate spots, could I then do reagent tests on each one to further try and identify what they are?  Is that worth doing? (on the assumption that the mdma is masking the 'meh' byproduct but that potentially the reagents could identify it if it were a pure sample)


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> @Glubrahnum just thinking ahead, once I've tlc and I have the separate spots, could I then do reagent tests on each one to further try and identify what they are?  Is that worth doing? (on the assumption that the mdma is masking the 'meh' byproduct but that potentially the reagents could identify it if it were a pure sample)


Yes, after the solvent evaporates you can do any analysis on the spots.  The only problem might be the quantity of the substance contained in the spots.  This is not a problem with e.g. Raman spectroscopy which involves just shining laser light on the spots and detecting the reflected light spectrum, but with reagent testing you'd need to dose a very small amount of it with a small capillary, in order not to flood the small spot.  Observing the color evolution on such a small scale, might be difficult without optical magnification.

Also, you can *cut out* the spot which contains MDMA (and the starting line) and send the remainder of the plate to a professional lab for analysis without worrying about the legalities.


----------



## Glubrahnum

majk13 said:


> @Glubrahnum: what additional questions could I ask?


For example what solvent system would he use to resolve compound #7 from compound #3 from the paper mentioned in* this post*, in trituration and on a silica TLC plate.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Also, you can *cut out* the spot which contains MDMA (and the starting line) and send the remainder of the plate to a professional lab for analysis without worrying about the legalities.



I like that idea.  I guess the only issue is working out which spot is the MDMA.  Presumably reagent test and if I can work it out then off we go.


----------



## vash445

majk13 said:


> Welcome back.
> 
> I made contact with a person who is a chemist in the Polytechnic department, I asked him if the same substance differing only in the method of synthesis in which it was received can affect the human body differently.
> 
> His answer: "Often the properties of different substances depend on the method of preparation. This is due to many factors, such as impurities formed during synthesis, or the polymorphic form in which the substance crystallizes"
> 
> Everything translated by the translator so sorry for errors ...
> 
> @Glubrahnum: what additional questions could I ask?



You can also ask how much WET VS DRY crystals with solvent effect it orally.

You can point him to the pre ban DMSO mephadrone pre ban threoy

Dr Zee Meph DMSO Debate pre-ban holy grail who knows ... explained in a recent article - https://www.talkingdrugs.org/where-did-all-the-real-mephedrone- go

https://dnstars.vip/pre-ban-mephedrone-rediscovered/


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> You can also ask how much WET VS DRY crystals with solvent effect it orally.
> 
> You can point him to the pre ban DMSO mephadrone pre ban threoy
> 
> Dr Zee Meph DMSO Debate pre-ban holy grail who knows ... explained in a recent article - https://www.talkingdrugs.org/where-did-all-the-real-mephedrone- go
> 
> https://dnstars.vip/pre-ban-mephedrone-rediscovered/


DMSO is a easy answer it increases the absorption of any material in it it just goes through your skin or membranes straight into the blood.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> DMSO is a easy answer it increases the absorption of any material in it it just goes through your skin or membranes straight into the blood.



Other solvents thou?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> Other solvents thou?


other solvents do not penetrate the skin or membranes as easily as dmso. For mdma you dont want any solvents left over pretty much every solvent has some level of toxicity associated with it.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> other solvents do not penetrate the skin or membranes as easily as dmso. For mdma you dont want any solvents left over pretty much every solvent has some level of toxicity associated with it.



AHHH But acetone isn't THAT toxic and minor amounts lets say semi wet stuff I got from NL before could possibly have an effect. AND  acetone is VERY common


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> other solvents do not penetrate the skin or membranes as easily as dmso. For mdma you dont want any solvents left over pretty much every solvent has some level of toxicity associated with it.


EXAMPLE I found GBL with acetone. I boiled the acetone and was left with about 2-3oz of GBL. (REported ammount by msds) WAS THERE MINOR acetone, sure, is it toxic. it's really not that bad in amounts that small, like what 100-150mg with maybe 10% tops by weight if semi wet. NOT SPEED PASTE WET but mdma acetone wet


----------



## TripSitterNZ

i wouldnt want acetone in me on my skin or near me. I worked with huge amounts of acetone as a chemist the fumes would really give you a awful headache and really fuck your skin up if spilt on you.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> i wouldnt want acetone in me on my skin or near me. I worked with huge amounts of acetone as a chemist the fumes would really give you a awful headache and really fuck your skin up if spilt on you.



OH  i imagine, but just a little bit wont kill ya. this isnt ricin / ANd if you really are eating large amounts of MDMA TO WHERE AECTONE WOULD BE A CONCERN... i THINK WE WOULD HAVE OTHER ISSUE TO WORRY ABOUT FIRST  LIKE EATING LARGE AMMOUNT OF mdma COUGH COUGH


----------



## vash445

Actually speaking of acetone, cyanide and ricin, couldn't be any worse then this... lets do 100+mg of 3meopcp said noone ever!!! AND yet I know people.... WHO DO HARM REDUCTION at the burn ... SMFH. I mean cyanide isnt that dangerous but I def had a friend who wanted intergalactic space kitties that for sure and my friend racked up a line for the WHOLE DAY!!! Nope does it in 1 line and she gone gone


WARNING: Potential lethal batch of 3-MeO-PCP going around




			WARNING: Potential lethal batch of 3-MeO-PCP going around - News - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@G_Chem just want to check something.  For the HCL solution part of the A/B extraction you wrote dilute to 5%.  If I have a 0.1M solution, should I dilute 50/50 water/HCL to give 0.05 or have I misunderstood.  Not sure about conventions used.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

I don’t know if relevant or not, but maybe fore someone it may give a clue. I’ve previously written about how MehMDMA have no synergy with 2C-B as real MDMA does. More of a contrary effect. Yesterday I took 150 mg of 3-FEA with a 50 mg booster. I prefer 3-FEA to MehMDMA, though their effect is really similar – except for the 3-FEA long lingering insomnia. Anyhow, today I took 75 mcg ALD-52. No tolerance since I’ve abstained from psychedelics the past 2 weeks. I did get effect, but it was clearly muted and I could fall asleep after 5 hours! Normally it would be impossible for 10-12 h. So it seems a fair guess that both MehMDMA and 3-FEA both messes with psychedelic receptors in a similar way while real MDMA doesn’t (or does it in a different way). Just my 2 cents for today :^)


----------



## Glubrahnum

PsychedelicSummer said:


> I could fall asleep after 5 hours! Normally it would be impossible for 10-12 h.


You normally cannot sleep for 10-12h after 3-FEA or after ALD-25 ?



PsychedelicSummer said:


> No tolerance since I’ve abstained from psychedelics the past 2 weeks.


That's enough to recover from tolerance to ALD-25 or LSD-25 but not enough to recover from 3-FEA.
1 day break is not enough to recover from 3-FEA even more.


----------



## AutoTripper

PsychedelicSummer said:


> I don’t know if relevant or not, but maybe fore someone it may give a clue. I’ve previously written about how MehMDMA have no synergy with 2C-B as real MDMA does. More of a contrary effect. Yesterday I took 150 mg of 3-FEA with a 50 mg booster. I prefer 3-FEA to MehMDMA, though their effect is really similar – except for the 3-FEA long lingering insomnia. Anyhow, today I took 75 mcg ALD-52. No tolerance since I’ve abstained from psychedelics the past 2 weeks. I did get effect, but it was clearly muted and I could fall asleep after 5 hours! Normally it would be impossible for 10-12 h. So it seems a fair guess that both MehMDMA and 3-FEA both messes with psychedelic receptors in a similar way while real MDMA doesn’t (or does it in a different way). Just my 2 cents for today :^)


It may not necrssarily be messing with the psychedellic receptors as such.
It might be, I just want to suggest that the trip had far less potential at that time because you are essentially depleted in various ways, which needs a little more time to restore.

So the real governing link could be any of a number if things, or just general and not anything specific.

I mean, just going by my own gut feelings from experience and subconscious thought I guess, it's almost a case of available mental energy sometimes. We try to kid ourselves, but we only can expend so much.

And I also reason that this is another way these experiences can be so beneficial, by enabling us to release excess, stuck, unhealthy or abundant energy in an enjoyable and ideally overall positive and enjoyable way.

Sorry not even disagreeing just being typically philosophical. So much feeling and pictute book memories come to me when I read all your accounts, so I try to tap into that to make sense of my own observations.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

Glubrahnum said:


> You normally cannot sleep for 10-12h after 3-FEA or after ALD-25 ?



After ALD-52, but almost that long after 3-FEA too.



Glubrahnum said:


> That's enough to recover from tolerance to ALD-25 or LSD-25 but not enough to recover from 3-FEA.
> 1 day brak is not enough to recover from 3-FEA even more.


Apparently not, but as I regard 3-FEA as an empathogen I was expecting it to have no cross tolerance with psychedelics, just like MDMA.


----------



## indigoaura

This will be a bit of a change of tone from all the chemistry posts, but I wanted to share some observations from an EDM event I went to.

I was requested as a chaperone for a younger family member. Her mom contacted me and asked me if I would escort her to an EDM event she wanted to go to. I had not been to this type of event in a long time, but I agreed. Although this younger family member is a legal adult, she is a bit sheltered, and the mom did not want her to go alone.

So, since I was the "chaperone," it was not the time or place to attempt to solicit the acquisition of anything, but I did observe all the attendees really carefully.

Observations:

#1. Clearly, real MDMA is still going around in certain circles. Many attendees at the event were messed up, but SOME of them exhibited the visual characteristics and behaviors that I recall from MDMA in the early 2000s.

#2. Most of the people who seemed to actually have MDMA were Asian. This reminded me of how I was always told the Asian mafia were the distributors of the product that I used to get in the area. I never knew if that was 100% true or not, but that is what I was told at the time.

#3. Out of all the people I saw who were messed up, the most obvious visual "tell" to an observer was jaw clenching/grinding. Now, obviously, some of these people could have been on meth or coke. Out of the jaw clenchers, there seemed to be two groups.
a. Group A had normal posture. Although you could see they were chewing gum/clenching/grinding there were not really any other atypical behaviors. Their eyes looked normal. They interacted with their groups in a normal way.
b. Group B had loose posture. They were frequently leaning on or touching against their group. This group was constantly touching things. They touched their own hair. They touched their friend's hair. They touched their clothes. They touched their friends clothes. Specifically, they rubbed their hands up and down hair, clothes, body parts etc. The males in this group quickly took off their shirts. The males hugged each other and openly were affectionate to each other, as well as their girlfriends. The girls in this group could not keep their hands off the boys. They were grabbing, hugging, touching, rubbing, and leaning against each other.  I turned around at one point and there was so much grinding going on I thought things may progress to actual sex in short order. Their eyes were very wide. (Too dark to tell about dilation specifically.) Also, sometimes you could literally see their eyes roll back in their head so all you saw were the whites of the eyes (reminded me that there was a reason "rolling" became the slang). This group danced most of the time (although sometimes sloppily), but sometimes needed to sit down for a minute before going back to dancing.

#4. There were people who were obviously messed up, but did not exhibit obvious jaw clenching. These people stood very still. They did not dance. They stared straight ahead. It was almost alarming how still they were in the sea of dancing. I was stone cold sober, I was not drinking or doing anything. I danced non-stop from 8 pm until midnight (and I had been awake since 5 am). My younger companion was also totally sober and she did the same thing. So, all these "walking dead" attendees who were so stony faced stood out.

To summarize - "Group B" appeared to have legit MDMA. They looked like everyone I remember doing E from "back in the day." The need to touch & be touched is key to me. Their joy overflowed and it was infectious. It was one specific group of people who exhibited these characteristics, and they seemed to know each other. I saw only a handful of other people exhibiting these signs outside of that one group. As we walked out, I saw some additional people who were not able to walk out and were puddled against the walls rubbing each other and leaning on each other.

If I had to assign percentages to every group I would say about 30% of people seemed to be sober or drunk, 20% stared ahead blankly and were still, 35% clenched their jaws but acted normal, and 15% clenched jaws and were touchy feely and all over each other.

The jaw clenching, touchy feely, dancing group looked exactly like all of us used to look at parties. They had what I want, for sure.


----------



## indigoaura

I will add this too...I can guarantee that if I took MehDMA and went to the same event, I would have been standing very still and staring straight ahead.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> I will add this too...I can guarantee that if I took MehDMA and went to the same event, I would have been standing very still and staring straight ahead.



Happened to me many times the past few years. Trust me, you dont wanna be there. Its so confusing to be at your favorite place but being like "meh" lol


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> This will be a bit of a change of tone from all the chemistry posts, but I wanted to share some observations from an EDM event I went to.
> 
> I was requested as a chaperone for a younger family member. Her mom contacted me and asked me if I would escort her to an EDM event she wanted to go to. I had not been to this type of event in a long time, but I agreed. Although this younger family member is a legal adult, she is a bit sheltered, and the mom did not want her to go alone.
> 
> So, since I was the "chaperone," it was not the time or place to attempt to solicit the acquisition of anything, but I did observe all the attendees really carefully.
> 
> Observations:
> 
> #1. Clearly, real MDMA is still going around in certain circles. Many attendees at the event were messed up, but SOME of them exhibited the visual characteristics and behaviors that I recall from MDMA in the early 2000s.
> 
> #2. Most of the people who seemed to actually have MDMA were Asian. This reminded me of how I was always told the Asian mafia were the distributors of the product that I used to get in the area. I never knew if that was 100% true or not, but that is what I was told at the time.
> 
> #3. Out of all the people I saw who were messed up, the most obvious visual "tell" to an observer was jaw clenching/grinding. Now, obviously, some of these people could have been on meth or coke. Out of the jaw clenchers, there seemed to be two groups.
> a. Group A had normal posture. Although you could see they were chewing gum/clenching/grinding there were not really any other atypical behaviors. Their eyes looked normal. They interacted with their groups in a normal way.
> b. Group B had loose posture. They were frequently leaning on or touching against their group. This group was constantly touching things. They touched their own hair. They touched their friend's hair. They touched their clothes. They touched their friends clothes. Specifically, they rubbed their hands up and down hair, clothes, body parts etc. The males in this group quickly took off their shirts. The males hugged each other and openly were affectionate to each other, as well as their girlfriends. The girls in this group could not keep their hands off the boys. They were grabbing, hugging, touching, rubbing, and leaning against each other.  I turned around at one point and there was so much grinding going on I thought things may progress to actual sex in short order. Their eyes were very wide. (Too dark to tell about dilation specifically.) Also, sometimes you could literally see their eyes roll back in their head so all you saw were the whites of the eyes (reminded me that there was a reason "rolling" became the slang). This group danced most of the time (although sometimes sloppily), but sometimes needed to sit down for a minute before going back to dancing.
> 
> #4. There were people who were obviously messed up, but did not exhibit obvious jaw clenching. These people stood very still. They did not dance. They stared straight ahead. It was almost alarming how still they were in the sea of dancing. I was stone cold sober, I was not drinking or doing anything. I danced non-stop from 8 pm until midnight (and I had been awake since 5 am). My younger companion was also totally sober and she did the same thing. So, all these "walking dead" attendees who were so stony faced stood out.
> 
> To summarize - "Group B" appeared to have legit MDMA. They looked like everyone I remember doing E from "back in the day." The need to touch & be touched is key to me. Their joy overflowed and it was infectious. It was one specific group of people who exhibited these characteristics, and they seemed to know each other. I saw only a handful of other people exhibiting these signs outside of that one group. As we walked out, I saw some additional people who were not able to walk out and were puddled against the walls rubbing each other and leaning on each other.
> 
> If I had to assign percentages to every group I would say about 30% of people seemed to be sober or drunk, 20% stared ahead blankly and were still, 35% clenched their jaws but acted normal, and 15% clenched jaws and were touchy feely and all over each other.
> 
> The jaw clenching, touchy feely, dancing group looked exactly like all of us used to look at parties. They had what I want, for sure.



I observe relatively the same. lmao @ the asian comment. Its sort of something ive noticed over the years, they always got the goods. lol.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Asians have very good contacts and seemly completely wizardly ways to smuggle top quality drugs into any country. If you go to south east asia and know a few people its like a god damm drug supermarket for anything you want if you have the cash and well connected circles huge amounts of different rcs you pick for your liking.

The triads in NZ have amazing mdma and meth.

High quality mdma has always been expensive in NZ compared to the rest of the world. unless buying 100 + presses at a time

At edm events among younger adults i dont see the love of mdma like i did in my young adult years through edm in australia and holland at first thought everybody had changed to using meth at events in NZ and australia.  Then seeing interviews on youtube of these people claiming they on mdma with zero pupil dilaton and comming across as a major asshole. 

The magic rolls always have me at the end like thank the universe for this amazing substance you truly see the potential it can do for trauma. The first time i rolled on MDMA showed me a love so great it made me love life and to be alive and finally break free from the past. Saldy i loved this feeling so much i heavily abused it for a long time i feel quite burnt these days but i just go on with my day and ignore the migraines and headaches. 

I seen some new grenade presses about here aswell 180 mg mdma but im very unsure if they are good and waiting for somebody i trust to try themout before i spend cash on a expensive press


----------



## AutoTripper

@indigoaura you have reminded me of a nostalgic early, almost childhood memory of learning and being excited about ecstasy.  Aged 16 having just started out, or about to.

My friend's older sister's boyfriend Paul, the one I mentioned before who used to tell me about the Legendary Double Doves.

Now I remember how he really emphasized that you will always know who was on double doves in the club. And he was talking about serious old Skool days where everybody was unlike the best original e's on the planet.

He told me how he would be able to spot somebody and would always approach them to get hold up some for himself.

Like, everyone in the club was off their face on on high strength original old school MDMA Doves, Dolphins, Elephants, (No Mitzis haha), and these guys were STILL standing out.

So I can totally relate to what you describe in your observations and I bet that must have been quite an interesting and revealing experience.

How can I put it? So much to be picked up from body language and other visual cues. Much more than we consciously realise. Of course we do a lot of of perceptive processing subconsciously and unconsciously without being aware of this, hence the need to trust your "feelings"  (they ain't feelings precisely calculated algebra equations and formulas which you can't afford to ignore if you want to get this right lol) 

We give more away than we know, and can really learn so much about others just by taking a glance if we can trust and better tune in to our intuition.

So I can genuinely picture your experience of being in an observatory at the event, with such strikingly clear perceptions to make.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> ...I did observe all the attendees really carefully.


Thank you for your detailed observation. Clearly you noticed marked differences in behavior.
If you had a samples of the substances ingested by each group we would could get hard data.

It is also sad that 85% of these people might have been misled that they were on real "MDMA" and drew conclusions from it.  This is especialy true about first-time users.    MehMDMA seems to be the most effective weapon against MDMA proliferation.


----------



## Delusional Thomas

Unfortunately, I haven't seen real MDMA in my city in a long time. I'm sure it's out there somewhere, just not in my circles.

I got 2 X pills from somebody a few months ago. Didn't have a marquis reagent test yet when I took the first one. I just felt speedy and zoned out for the rest of the night. No euphoria whatsoever. Finally got a test kit and tested the second pill. The reaction was clear-clear. Suspecting BZP or some other shit. Had the same experience with a couple pills about 6 years ago. Which led me to just not trusting or taking "ecstasy" anymore for quite some time.

I recently found a trustworthy source for high quality molly. I told some of my friends who still pop X pills and they had literally no interest in trying it because they've heard so many "horror stories" saying that it's cut with so many different drugs. But they're totally willing and trusting in taking these unknown pills from unreliable/inexperienced sellers. Not sure why "pure" MDMA has more stigma than these random ass pills on the street. I even tell them I can test their pills and prove it has zero MDMA in it. But they're either just stubborn or completely ignorant... I guess as long as people are happy and keep buying bullshit, people will keep producing and peddling the bullshit.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Delusional Thomas said:


> I guess as long as people are happy and keep buying bullshit, people will keep producing and peddling the bullshit.


Yes, but first-time users just do not know any better


----------



## Delusional Thomas

Glubrahnum said:


> Yes, but first-time users just do not know any better


This is very true. And if their first experience comes from taking some bullshit, they'll keep coming back for more because they don't know the difference.  ?


----------



## indigoaura

@delusional I feel obligated to point out that just because it is molly, that does not mean it is pure. Even if you reagent test the molly and the test looks good, that does not mean it is pure either. That is the whole focus of this thread really. Obviously there are adulterants that are not MDMA, but sometimes the MDMA itself is bad.


----------



## Delusional Thomas

indigoaura said:


> @delusional I feel obligated to point out that just because it is molly, that does not mean it is pure. Even if you reagent test the molly and the test looks good, that does not mean it is pure either. That is the whole focus of this thread really. Obviously there are adulterants that are not MDMA, but sometimes the MDMA itself is bad.



Got'cha! I made sure to put "pure" in quotes because I know it's not 100%. At least the stuff I can acquire isn't. Usually advertised around 90% which could also be way off. I've always passed off bad rolls as just containing no MDMA or containing other unpleasant adulterants making it shitty. I never really considered the possibility that the MDMA itself just wasn't good. Then again, I never experienced legal lab grade MDMA to compare it to like the OP has.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Obviously there are adulterants that are not MDMA,


...or synthesis byproducts, or unreacted precursors, or precursor contaminants.



indigoaura said:


> ...but sometimes the MDMA itself is bad.


That is impossible by itself when you define "MDMA" as pure racemic 3,4-MDMA Hydrochloride dissolved in water, in order to avoid any bioavailability issues with crystalline polymorphisms.

The remaining natural isotopic ratio viariations are not noticeable pharmacologicaly ...only forensically.


----------



## indigoaura

Perhaps a better way to say it is that even a product that shows "MDMA" on a lab result may still produce negative/undesirable/limited effects.


----------



## vash445

SO I went to a renegade "Forest rave"  this past weekend and noticed a wall of people  on the couches just rolling sitting. no cuddling just more like huddled for warmth. Another guy was in a chair and just straight out zombified. I also asked asked someone and said, "MDMA has changed" he goes yes it def, has its why I don't touch it and my circles dont have the good shit


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Anyone who goes to a rave to 'observe' people so that they can post their 'findings' on the internet needn't wonder why people around them seem so inhibited.

Maybe focus less on what _others_ are doing..


Glubrahnum said:


> Yes, but first-time users just do not know any better


What is your personal experience with MDMA? Have you ever actually taken it?


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> I was requested as a chaperone for a younger family member.





Kaden_Nite said:


> Anyone who goes to a rave to 'observe' people so that they can post their 'findings' on the internet needn't wonder why people around them seem so inhibited.


Wait a minute!  Indigoaura was a chaperone there for a much younger person.  Being clear-headed in such an arrangement was a sign of responsibility.



Kaden_Nite said:


> What is your personal experience with MDMA? Have you ever actually taken it?


Yes, that's why I think it is wrong that some first-time users are denied the same experience.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Perhaps a better way to say it is that even a product that shows "MDMA" on a lab result may still produce negative/undesirable/limited effects.


Yes


----------



## epic11

Kaden_Nite said:


> Anyone who goes to a rave to 'observe' people so that they can post their 'findings' on the internet needn't wonder why people around them seem so inhibited.
> 
> Maybe focus less on what _others_ are doing..
> 
> What is your personal experience with MDMA? Have you ever actually taken it?



Indigo is a rave-veteran, and I support what she did. (She literally did nothing but observe, NOT STARE. Very different) She was being a chaperone for a younger crowd, get off your high horse. lol.  You also say this like we cant simply observe while having fun. Im a very observant person. I notice people and things happening around me. You know, people arent just staring at others to see what their reactions are. We just notice it. Shes just vigilant.

She did exactly what needs to be done for this threads purpose. (remember, we are literally trying to find out whats wrong with mdma, and shes a big contributor here) She just watched people on mdma.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> Indigo is a rave-veteran, and I support what she did. (She literally did nothing but observe, NOT STARE. Very different) She was being a chaperone for a younger crowd, get off your high horse. lol.  You also say this like we cant simply observe while having fun. Im a very observant person. I notice people and things happening around me. You know, people arent just staring at others to see what their reactions are. We just notice it. Shes just vigilant.
> 
> She did exactly what needs to be done for this threads purpose. (remember, we are literally trying to find out whats wrong with mdma, and shes a big contributor here) She just watched people on mdma.


Totslly agree with you angle and interpretation and fully disputes the misinterpretation in question.

Indigo was only being her natural self it's not like she said "right I'm going to get my backpack and notebook and go to this event and watch everybody and make observations, like a good Girl Scout!"

As was misinterpreted. She just was herself, she wasn't going to the event in the usual frame of mind and circumstance with the same intentions and mindset it was more or performing a role, a service for a friend.

And once there, she just happened to make a series of very interesting observations, for good reasons, with a healthy and useful purpose.

It was interesting to her, it was all very natural. I don't see the need to question, mock or reproach that at all. Perfectly understandable and with good purpose.

I felt her post and comments added to the topic, it was an interesting insight into an already interesting phenomena to myself personally- the outward appearance of ecstasy users.  

It actually brought back quite a few memories of what people used to look like back in the day. I remembered a particular batch of Elephant pills we were taking one weekend over 3 days I took 24 they were the best of the best pretty much easily over 100mg probably 130 to 150mg of the best MDMA.

It was commonplace to take a lot of pills back then for most people and and people were double and triple dropping them which was totally unnecessary.

I remember when I got to the venue an indoor apartment, on the friday night before dropping- there were two young guys who had taken 3 each and walked a long way back from the other side of town at night.

Man you should have seen the site and the state of these guys sitting on the couch.

They barely looked human they were literally melting and morphine and warping before my straight eyes no exaggeration.

Gurning like hell they looked like a Salvador Dali painting or melting wax figures.

Such a bizarre and captivating site almost gruesome to see somebody in that visibly altered state.

Not sure I have a point, but what a sight.


----------



## Buzz Lightbeer

A couple weeks ago I took some MDMA crystal, was a little gray-ish, didn't have high hopes for the batch and right I was, I took 150mg (had taken LSD about 8 hours before) and came up hard and fast but it developed into nothing. Better than 2 seriously underwhelming MDMA experiences I've had before but still disappointing.

I had a great 150mg pill the month before so I haven't given up hope completely, it mostly sucks because I can't trust anyone when it comes to what they say about batches.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

AutoTripper said:


> And this particular comment, how brash, abrasive, unnecessary and to be honest, downright patronising:
> 
> "What is your personal experience with MDMA? Have you ever actually taken it?"
> 
> 
> I mean, indigo has been 100% open about her own longtime experience with MDMA. It doesn't take much reading of this thread or a quick look at some of her posts or to actually remember surely having read them....
> 
> So to completely miss that information or not take it in the first place and then patronisingly reproach in that manner, with such an alloof defiant attitude, just ridiculous IMO.


You might want to re-read that.
It was a question for someone who only talks about other people's experiences with MDMA, never his own.. wtf has that got to do with indigo?


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Totslly agree with you angle and interpretation and fully disputes the silly misinterpretation in question. Some people just have a tendency to misinterpret things.
> 
> Indigo was only being her natural self it's not like she said r"ight I'm going to get my backpack and notebook and go to this event and watch everybody and make observations, like a good Girl Scout!"
> 
> As was misinterpreted literally in a silly sense. She just was herself, she wasn't going to the event in the usual frame of mind and circumstance with the same intentions and mindset it was more or performing a role, a service for a friend.
> 
> And once there, she just happened to make a series of very interesting observations, for good reasons, with a healthy and useful purpose.
> 
> It was interesting to her, it was all very natural. I don't see the need to question, mock or reproach that at all. Perfectly understandable and with good purpose.
> 
> I felt her post and comments added to the topic, it was an interesting insight into an already interesting phenomena to myself personally- the outward appearance of ecstasy users.
> 
> It actually brought back quite a few memories of what people used to look like back in the day. I remembered a particular batch of Elephant pills we were taking one weekend over 3 days I took 24 they were the best of the best pretty much easily over 100mg probably 130 to 150mg of the best MDMA.
> 
> It was commonplace to take a lot of pills back then for most people and and people were double and triple dropping them which was totally unnecessary.
> 
> I remember when I got to the venue an indoor apartment, on the friday night before dropping- there were two young guys who had taken 3 each and walked a long way back from the other side of town at night.
> 
> Man you should have seen the site and the state of these guys sitting on the couch.
> 
> They barely looked human they were literally melting and morphine and warping before my straight eyes no exaggeration.
> 
> Gurning like hell they looked like a Salvador Dali painting or melting wax figures.
> 
> Such a bizarre and captivating site almost gruesome to see somebody in that visibly altered state.
> 
> Not sure I have a point, but what a sight.



Thanks auto, a well thought out and written response. Exactly my points. Thanks for re-iterating that.


----------



## epic11

Buzz Lightbeer said:


> A couple weeks ago I took some MDMA crystal, was a little gray-ish, didn't have high hopes for the batch and right I was, I took 150mg (had taken LSD about 8 hours before) and came up hard and fast but it developed into nothing. Better than 2 seriously underwhelming MDMA experiences I've had before but still disappointing.
> 
> I had a great 150mg pill the month before so I haven't given up hope completely, it mostly sucks because I can't trust anyone when it comes to what they say about batches.



Bummer.  Lots of evidence suggest that grey-ish mdma is coming from the helional route. Doesnt really help our concern, as it sounds like that was "meh" as well.


----------



## epic11

Kaden_Nite said:


> You might want to re-read that.
> It was a question for someone who only talks about other people's experiences with MDMA, never his own.. wtf has that got to do with indigo?



Yea @AutoTripper this response here was geared towards @Glubrahnum . I actually had the same curiosity, i mean, you dont care about this topic if you hadnt experienced the magic. I figured they had used mdma before at one point.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

If you dont look like this...




Then something's not right...


----------



## AutoTripper

Kaden_Nite said:


> You might want to re-read that.
> It was a question for someone who only talks about other people's experiences with MDMA, never his own.. wtf has that got to do with indigo?


I know, and I am very sorry. That was a bad mistake I made, as it effected now I percieved your post. I noticed and edoted my post, Im sorry I was surely more narsh towards you owing to my misread. I am a hypocrit on top.

I still did not feel that your own interpretation of Indigo's post and experience was fair or accurate. But I misread things skimming through. I usually do better to be a nicer person, I let myself down occasionally and no excuse for that.  

Bearing good will and openess towards others are core principles to me always, sometimes life just hurts and you can lose sight in the moment.

So please accept my apology for so dumbly misreading things, and for not being very nice.  Im ashamed actually, I edited my not nice comments and man I am such a hypocrite, calling your own misinterpretation as I saw it silly and saying how some people have a tendency to misinterpret things lol! If I wasn't so embarrassed I would laugh at myself.

 I stand by my view of course. I never was very good at making these observations myself. I was normally the gorilla at the zoo being observed myself lol!

But reading her post did trigger something in me because I have long forgotten this phenomena of what it used to be like to be at parties and see the states of the people there.

And there was such a wide range of the types of appearance and behaviour and intoxication you would see. Good I would love to go to one of these places now with my vision and wits about me and make such observations because I know it would be fascinating.

I used to get so off my face myself and I was not really paying attention to others as you allude to in your original comments, I was just in the moment being me doing my own thing and I left everyone else to their own devices and free will.

And my vision was always compromised whenever I took MDMA so I was not really paying too much attention to my surroundings it was always an inner transcendental and spiritual experience for me.

But I can really appreciate what it would be like to make a series of observations in such a place.


----------



## AutoTripper

epic11 said:


> Yea @AutoTripper this response here was geared towards @Glubrahnum . I actually had the same curiosity, i mean, you dont care about this topic if you hadnt experienced the magic. I figured they had used mdma before at one point.


Thanks for reality checking me. I realised and edited, I just skimmed through and my vision/perception is a little substance effected right now from a very enjoyable combo of Green Malay Kratom and cannabis edible. 

Superb synergy, much greater euphoria from the Kratom, its long steady uplifting peak goes perfectly with the steady, gradual lasting relaxation of the edible.


So I was careless in my reading. Thanks man.

Oh I did also have that same curiosity myself, so I can totally relate to that perfectly reasonable question from @Kaden_Nite , making me an even bigger hypocrite right?


----------



## Foreigner

Sorry to bust in and talk this way, but what is the point of this thread? The topic is useful but at 141 pages I don't even know what to do with it. I did come here to find out what's wrong with MDMA. Should I just start at page 1 and go from there, or should I make a whole new thread?


----------



## AutoTripper

Foreigner said:


> Sorry to bust in and talk this way, but what is the point of this thread? The topic is useful but at 141 pages I don't even know what to do with it. I did come here to find out what's wrong with MDMA. Should I just start at page 1 and go from there, or should I make a whole new thread?


I think a lot of progress has been made fairly freshly here. Some very clever heads have joined together to brainstorm, with smart chemists. It has all gone over my head, but the sense and consensus is that the beginnings of an explanation are potentially starting to form.

But it could still be a fair way off because if anything multiple different avenues of exploration have been highlighted just recently I think.

If you check out the last 10 pages or so if you can translate the chemistry gobbledygook lol, that may be be of interest to you.

You asked a good question though and I'm sure at some point down the line there will be some sort of revision or new thread which is much more on track and closer to the matter at heart with a better understanding and ideally some more information and evidence by that stage.

Until then it is still a work in progress and I'm not sure what to suggest.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Foreigner said:


> Sorry to bust in and talk this way, but what is the point of this thread? The topic is useful but at 141 pages I don't even know what to do with it. I did come here to find out what's wrong with MDMA. Should I just start at page 1 and go from there, or should I make a whole new thread?



Nah, just do what I do - take shitloads of MDMA and draw your own conclusions...


----------



## psy997

Foreigner said:


> Sorry to bust in and talk this way, but what is the point of this thread? The topic is useful but at 141 pages I don't even know what to do with it. I did come here to find out what's wrong with MDMA. Should I just start at page 1 and go from there, or should I make a whole new thread?



There's a summary post which has a table including posts with all the pertinent information. It was just referenced recently, though I'm not sure where it is. I did a search in the thread and couldn't find it immediately.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

AutoTripper said:


> I know, and I am very sorry


No worries.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> Thanks for reality checking me. I realised and edited, I just skimmed through and my vision/perception is a little substance effected right now from a very enjoyable combo of Green Malay Kratom and cannabis edible.
> 
> Superb synergy, much greater euphoria from the Kratom, its long steady uplifting peak goes perfectly with the steady, gradual lasting relaxation of the edible.
> 
> 
> So I was careless in my reading. Thanks man.
> 
> Oh I did also have that same curiosity myself, so I can totally relate to that perfectly reasonable question from @Kaden_Nite , making me an even bigger hypocrite right?



No worries! Maybe one day the active people here can smoke a j with you near your bed! haha Id love that.



Foreigner said:


> Sorry to bust in and talk this way, but what is the point of this thread? The topic is useful but at 141 pages I don't even know what to do with it. I did come here to find out what's wrong with MDMA. Should I just start at page 1 and go from there, or should I make a whole new thread?



The point of the thread, becomes very obvious when you start to read it. 141 pages, really isnt that long. Start reading! Also, there was a summary recently.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Kaden_Nite said:


> It was a question for someone who only talks about other people's experiences with MDMA, never his own.


My personal account was posted in this thread long time ago.



epic11 said:


> Yea @AutoTripper this response here was geared towards @Glubrahnum . I actually had the same curiosity, i mean, you don't care about this topic if you hadn't experienced the magic.


I agree. That's why it bothers me that some first-time users are missing out on that first experience and are drawing the wrong conclusions about the effects of this substance.


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> If you dont look like this...
> 
> View attachment 15301
> 
> 
> Then something's not right...



Honestly......... its true. You gotta look like this or you didnt find it. (This guy took a fucking LOT though. lmao)


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Glubrahnum said:


> Yes, that's why I think it is wrong that some first-time users are denied the same experience


Okay. And what were your experiences with MDMA like? Tell us about a few of them.


----------



## G_Chem

Kaden I know where your going with this.. Glubras use has little to do with the discussion at hand.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> Anyone who goes to a rave to 'observe' people so that they can post their 'findings' on the internet needn't wonder why people around them seem so inhibited.
> 
> Maybe focus less on what _others_ are doing..



@Kaden_Nite I really think you need to ask yourself what your intentions are with making some of the posts you make in this thread. I am not sure if you just skim what has been posted and then post in quick reaction without fully reading everything, or if you intend to sow negativity, or if you want to make people feel bad or what. Your posts come across in a very combative fashion. 

If you had read my comments in full you would see that I was a chaperone for a younger family member. That meant I was the designated driver. I had to stay sober and make sure she stayed safe and out of trouble. Had you fully read my post, you would also have read that I danced for four hours straight, the whole time we were there. Not sure how else I could participate as a designated driver for a young person other than dance the whole time. I am capable of dancing and also making observations, especially since there were breaks between the DJs when everyone just stood around and waited.

I am an observant and analytical person in general, no matter where I am. 

Instead of levying personal attacks against people participating in this thread, maybe there are other more positive ways you could participate in the conversation.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Kaden_Nite said:


> Okay. And what were your experiences with MDMA like? Tell us about a few of them.


I did not have multiple ones, but the experience was so profound that it changed my attitude to other people permanently (for the better).  e.g. I couldn't believe that downtown could be so beautiful - it was never so beautiful before!  I went into a club. The music felt like it was enveloping me and carrying it in it wings. I could actually talk to strangers without being stiff as usual and I imagined that I felt what they felt as the conversation unfolded (or maybe I really did).  I actually touched other people on the dancefloor (I would never go there nor do that before). A day prior, I was an antisocial mega nerd ...but a week after it I started to learn dancing.

From the pharmacological side it was 85mg of the racemic hydrochloride salt that was A/B purified with various solvents and column chromatography with extremely low yield. I won't even mention the testing regime. Think "nerd" and go figure.
Anyway, I dissolved that in orange juice for ingestion on an empty stomach and had a tingling comeup within half an hour, 5.5h duration, full mydriasis and associated optical consequences, strong trismus, higher pulse and BP, slight hyperthermia, heightened skin sensitivity, impotence, changed sense of taste.  The physical comedown lasted 2 days and was not severe (just blue).  However I think I experienced cognitive slowdown for approximately 3 weeks afterwards because I could not solve a technical problem that I should be able to solve normally in a day, or I was just distracted with the newly discovered emotional dimension and could not concentrate.

...all that from 85mg in a 85kg male first-timer....and I still remember every minute of it after all this time.


----------



## AutoTripper

Glubrahnum said:


> heightened skin sensitivity


That is a point. One specific effect of MDA which stood out very strongly for me above MDMA, was tactile sensation.

I remember when later reading about MDA's tnedancy for greater tactile sensation enhancement than MDMA, and it rang so true to my ears. It was always a noticeable and enjoyable part of the MDA experience for me.


----------



## indigoaura

The heightened tactile sensation element is significant, IMO. I saw that in the people on Friday night, and it is something I recall as being a "front and center" element of the MDMA I used to get. It is almost entirely absent in the batches I have had access to more recently, and it is not something I observe in people on MehDMA.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> That is a point. One specific effect of MDA which stood out very strongly for me above MDMA, was tactile sensation.
> 
> I remember when later reading about MDA's tnedancy for greater tactile sensation enhancement than MDMA, and it rang so true to my ears. It was always a noticeable and enjoyable part of the MDA experience for me.


yeah MDA can reach some levels just below LSD for tactile sensations. I honestly think alot of people dont realize what they like out of mdma and most those effects are alot stronger in mda. full pure mdma is a more couch locking vibe of love and chilling out while jaw clenching eyes wide open. I still have crystal of a mda and mdma mix which does what it does. a 120 mg mdma 80 mg mda is the perfect combo i discovered a long time ago.


----------



## indigoaura

Do you think we should add a second thread with a running summary of this thread? Le Junk does not seem to log on much anymore to update the 1st post in this thread, but maybe a more active participant could summarize what has been theorized so far, and update a second thread when there is significant info to add.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Do you think we should add a second thread with a running summary of this thread? Le Junk does not seem to log on much anymore to update the 1st post in this thread, but maybe a more active participant could summarize what has been theorized so far, and update a second thread when there is significant info to add.


I had the exact idea myself earlier. Not in relation to Le Junk, but it seemed sensible to restart the thread with a summary of sorts. 

But I'm no good with these clerical things myself. This thread would serve as a resource for quotes and references.


----------



## psy997

We could also have a Google Docs document or Google Sheets spreadsheet that a few of us have editing permissions on, and then have that linked in the first post?


----------



## G_Chem

I tried restarting it at one point with a summary but the mods shut er down and remerged the new thread with this one..

I think we could probably start a new thread that maybe summarizes and compiles (as knowledge progresses) the information we gather here, so long as it doesn’t become a 2.0 version of this thread.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

i wonder if those who are smaller size and dont have a sky high tolerance to mdma like myself are seeing acutally worse returns in these high dosed pills if taken at once and need to find a sweet spot dosage for themselves

imo 100 mg is to low of a dose for anybody but 200 mg at once is way to much for most users especially those without heavy mdma use. I have snorted lines of mda before and felt loving effects within minutes (50 - 75 mg ) lines for a short rush period of a hour.

Or mabye just buy out with all your avaible money if u do come across good product that should last a responsible user a life time. 

In my peak useage i was blowing through 2 grams of mdma a month i know some people who went truly down the rabbit hole and destoryed their brain by using 3 grams of mdma a week NZ and australia is full of heavy cookers who will throw down harder than anybody i have seen overseas.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> In my peak useage i was blowing through 2 grams of mdma a month i know some people who went truly down the rabbit hole and destoryed their brain by using 3 grams of mdma a week NZ and australia is full of heavy cookers who will throw down harder than anybody i have seen overseas.


At one period of my life, actually during my final university year, I took somewhere over 900 MDMA pills between September 2002 and June 2003. Which was about 25 pills a week average, but this would vary heavily and could be as much as 80 pills in one week was about the most. 

And that was not normal just something which did happen a couple of times I think.those were messy affairs and I truly lost track and reference of time, what day it was...what anything was. Not clever.


Regardless a lot of things came on ravelled during that period and it's when I my incurred the most significant changes and harms from MDMA, I effectively developed a neurosis, a psychological disorder basically, most of all my ability to communicate verbally and emotionally was massively compromised.

So there is a line to be drawn, 2 grams of MDMA a month you might just about be able to get away with, but 2 or more grams a week is ludicrous and just asking for trouble.


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> This falls perfectly in line with what I’ve been saying.  Thank you man for coming in to give your notes!! * Leuckart and Al/Hg give good product but leucky gives that “dance your heart out, 90s raver style” roll whereas Al/Hg gives the clean pure love with less stimulation but all around the truest form of MDMA.*
> 
> -GC



I appreciate all the time you've put into researching the history of production methods, but you surely cannot make that statement with even a shred of that certainty/confidence8)



Foreigner said:


> Sorry to bust in and talk this way, but what is the point of this thread? The topic is useful but at 141 pages I don't even know what to do with it. I did come here to find out what's wrong with MDMA. Should I just start at page 1 and go from there, or should I make a whole new thread?



Yeah, theres new information every now and then but at least 100 pages of this discussion makes the rest of the investigation look like complete lunacy. On one page we've got new information about a research chemical that could possible fool lab tests, thats available to us, and we could send it in to see if it fools a test, awesome!! Then the next page its about how because at a EDM festival it was observed that the asian people there, in general, looked extra fucked so they must have the good shit, and that we know of course asians have the good connections...

At some point I'll try and compile all the useful information, theories that we've already looked into, things we've ruled out, a set of concise hypotheses, etc...

On another note, do we have any reason to believe that trace amounts of heavy metals like mercury would have any affect whatsoever on the acute effects of MDMA? The effects of mercury toxicity are quite well documented


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> I appreciate all the time you've put into researching the history of production methods, but you surely cannot make that statement with even a shred of that certainty/confidence8)
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, theres new information every now and then but at least 100 pages of this discussion makes the rest of the investigation look like complete lunacy. On one page we've got new information about a research chemical that could possible fool lab tests, thats available to us, and we could send it in to see if it fools a test, awesome!! Then the next page its about how because at a EDM festival it was observed that the asian people there, in general, looked extra fucked so they must have the good shit, and that we know of course asians have the good connections...
> 
> At some point I'll try and compile all the useful information, theories that we've already looked into, things we've ruled out, a set of concise hypotheses, etc...
> 
> On another note, do we have any reason to believe that trace amounts of heavy metals like mercury would have any affect whatsoever on the acute effects of MDMA? The effects of mercury toxicity are quite well documented


I appreciate all the time you've put into researching the history of production methods, but you surely cannot make that statement with even a shred of that certainty/confidence8)


Old bee reported it. And hive bees are the ones who make/made MDMA. They are the ones that developed routes and created new precoursers so yes old bee would know read the thread earlier


----------



## ThreePointCircle

My first ever TLC, MehDMA in MEK.  Sample was dissolved in deionised water.  Not much going on as far as I can tell:


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Solvents wise I have isopropyl, acetone, DCM, xylene, MEK and Heptane.  Which ones do I try?

I also read something about have solvent mixes.  So should I do 1 solvent per plate, or mixtures of?


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> My first ever TLC, MehDMA in MEK.  Sample was dissolved in deionised water.  Not much going on as far as I can tell:
> View attachment 15343


Yes, that smear is something. The low contrast is due to your lamp being unfiltered (if you can see the lamp, this means that it emits some visible light that decreases the contrast) .
Your sample consists of four visible components. The one that stayed at the origin was insoluble in your solvent. Since silca gel is polar then the spot that traveled further is less polar.  The fact that the eluent front is not clean means that your starting spot was too big.  Go break a thermometer or sth and get yourself a capillary.



ThreePointCircle said:


> Solvents wise I have isopropyl, acetone, DCM, xylene, MEK and Heptane.  Which ones do I try?


The one that dissolves your sample well.  e.g. when you are at the base stage of your A/B extraction use heptane, toluene.
When your substance is in the salt form use polar solvents such as distilled water, isopropyl alcohol, ethanol, etc...



ThreePointCircle said:


> I also read something about have solvent mixes.  So should I do 1 solvent per plate, or mixtures of?


One mixture of solvents per plate.  Aim for clean origin and front (as in *this video*) and the best separation.
Allow the container to be saturated with vapors, before putting the plate in. Cover the container afterwards. Experiment with binary solvent mixtures of the same kind (polar with polar ...and non-polar with non-polar) in the range of 25% - 75%. Once you find the solvent mixture (solvent system) that gives you the best separation, you better have its proportion written down so you can make more of it later.

It is possible to make a 2D TLC with two solvents (or solvent mixtures) per plate. Drying them in-between is a must.  First immerse the short edge of the plate, let the front ascend, dry and then immerse the long edge in a different solvent (or mixture) and let the front ascend in the perpendicular direction.

You can also place the dried plate upside down over iodine crystals in a container.  Don't let the crystals touch the plate.  They will sublimate, react with the fractions on the TLC plate and may uncover something that is not visible under UV alone.  Mild temperature increase helps the sublimation.

You can also do a small amount of reagent testing on the spots of interest (when the plate is dry). Don't mix this with iodine staining.

You can purposely contaminate your sample with a *known* substance to gauge their relative retention factors....or put it in a different lane.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Thanks @Glubrahnum I'll work on all that.  I did have a brief look at filters and they seemed really expensive so I skipped.  I've now had a fiddle in editing the levels on the image and I can bring the smear out better.  But I take the point that filtered light would be preferable.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Just did Marquis on the spots to test to procedure.  Here they are (second image with one extra drop of marquis between bottom two spots):


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I was thinking to myself that the second spot up maybe had a hint of green on the edge (before I looked at the chair I swear lol).  So maybe MDA, MDMA, something, something?  The second to the top was slightly more yellow than the top but they both have that rusty brown look.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> I did have a brief look at filters and they seemed really expensive so I skipped.


Not really, See *here*.

Also, it is important to protect your eyes from the UV and this can be done with a clear polycarbonate sheet.  Even cheap polycarbonate safety glasses will make a diffference, but if you can get a thicker sheet then get it
...just remember: Protect your eyes from the UV with polycarbonate. Do NOT protect the TLC plate from the UV !  (protect the plate from the visible light, though).


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> I appreciate all the time you've put into researching the history of production methods, but you surely cannot make that statement with even a shred of that certainty/confidence8)
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, theres new information every now and then but at least 100 pages of this discussion makes the rest of the investigation look like complete lunacy. On one page we've got new information about a research chemical that could possible fool lab tests, thats available to us, and we could send it in to see if it fools a test, awesome!! Then the next page its about how because at a EDM festival it was observed that the asian people there, in general, looked extra fucked so they must have the good shit, and that we know of course asians have the good connections...
> 
> At some point I'll try and compile all the useful information, theories that we've already looked into, things we've ruled out, a set of concise hypotheses, etc...
> 
> On another note, do we have any reason to believe that trace amounts of heavy metals like mercury would have any affect whatsoever on the acute effects of MDMA? The effects of mercury toxicity are quite well documented



You speak of the data points about asians and festivals as if its not pertinent to the discussion. (correct me if im wrong, but thats the tone im reading) I actually believe it is. Its very very very clear to me when someone is on the good shit vs the meh shit.  People do notice things in general, and it doesn't have to mean anything. We just noticed it.


----------



## epic11

@ThreePointCircle thanks for trying to attempt all this. Hopefully we learn something.


----------



## Hilopsilo

vash445 said:


> I appreciate all the time you've put into researching the history of production methods, but you surely cannot make that statement with even a shred of that certainty/confidence8)
> 
> 
> Old bee reported it. And hive bees are the ones who make/made MDMA. They are the ones that developed routes and created new precoursers so yes old bee would know read the thread earlier



I read that, but they didn't provide any evidence, reasoning or data as to why one production method over the other produces a different product nor can G_Chem definitively connect a clandestine synthesis route to anything he's had in his possession with any certainty unless he literally made both batches himself and tried each multiple times at controlled doses.

I don't mean to be overly critical, I just want us to stay scientific and not get ahead of ourselves




epic11 said:


> You speak of the data points about asians and festivals as if its not pertinent to the discussion. I actually believe it is. Its very very very clear to me when someone is on the good shit vs the meh shit.  People do notice things in general, and it doesn't have to mean anything. We just noticed it.



If it doesnt mean anything, which I dont think it does, then it really doesnt belong in the thread. Its just such a stretch to connect the visual appearance of a specific race under the influence of drugs, to that that race has the good connections. Just to be clear im not saying its discriminatory, i just think its a hilarious conclusion to come to. People watching at a brostep festival in America -> Asians really fucked up -> Asians have good connections -> Asians must know where the good shit is at. What are we supposed to do with that, start asking asian people where they get their MDMA?

All im saying is, if I met someone who wanted to know more about this issue, I wouldnt send them over to this thread cause shit like that makes us look like we're REALLY grasping at straws here

It can be sort of clear, i know what you mean, but I dont think it can be so clear from fleeting, purely visual observations in such a chaotic environment as a massive music festival who has taken what, its frivolous


----------



## Hilopsilo

About the RC available in canada/US that might fool tests, any reason to believe it would also fool reagents? Its gotta be able to fool all the tests for it to be much of a lead, fooling GCMS but not IR or reagent i think would have been noticed by now.

If i can figure out how to get my hands on it, I'll try the reagents and if it passes those, i'll bring it downtown to the IR, then if it passes that, send it to ecstasy data


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> About the RC available in canada/US that might fool tests, any reason to believe it would also fool reagents? Its gotta be able to fool all the tests for it to be much of a lead, fooling GCMS but not IR or reagent i think would have been noticed by now.
> 
> If i can figure out how to get my hands on it, I'll try the reagents and if it passes those, i'll bring it downtown to the IR, then if it passes that, send it to ecstasy data


Xtc data will come back MDMA.

You need a private lab.. I HAVE 1. WE have cosy NMR, PROTON etc. Polerimeters for entiomers etc. But i need both meh and magic multiple samples


----------



## TripSitterNZ

The only thing that wont be fooled is NMR and the numerous options on it then interpt so get a 3d picture of the molecule on paper.


----------



## vash445

MASS SPECTRAL AND CHROMATOGRAPHIC STUDIES ON A SERIES OF
REGIOISOMERS AND ISOBARIC DERIVATIVES RELATED TO
METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINES









						[PDF] Mass Spectral and Chromatographic Studies on a Series Of Regioisomers and Isobaric Derivatives Related to Methylenedioxymethamphetamines | Semantic Scholar
					

Semantic Scholar extracted view of "Mass Spectral and Chromatographic Studies on a Series Of Regioisomers and Isobaric Derivatives Related to Methylenedioxymethamphetamines" by T. Awad




					www.semanticscholar.org
				




Very interesting


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## epic11

G_Chem said:


> So I found something interesting after reviewing some notes I made.. IDK if any of you remember but at one point I was going to reagent test 20 or so batches of MDMA/MDA to see if I could see any patterns.  I stopped about halfway through because I felt my reagents (particularly my marquis) were too old.
> 
> I stumbled upon the notes again and now having tried a batch of what I believed to be MehDMA I noticed something off.
> 
> All the other batches of MDMA I tested (which IMO were high quality batches completely in line with what I’d expect) reacted differently on Mandelin than this potential MehDMA batch.
> 
> All the other high quality batches, according to my notes, exhibit a green coloration before going dark. The MehDMA batch went dark blue/black, and apparently didn’t show any green.  Interesting cuz this also the only ecstasy pill I’ve tried since like 2012 or so, all other batches are crystal.
> 
> I suggest people go and buy a Mandelin reagent.  This could be another, better, clue in determining between good and bad batches.
> 
> -GC



Circling back to this, i meant to go test with this in mind. Just did. Left batch went black right away, right batch smoked, POTENTIALLY had the SMALLEST tinge of green for a millisecond, but quickly went black. It was VERY fast.

And here you go thread, actual images of some product. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




[URL


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## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> The only thing that wont be fooled is NMR and the numerous options on it then interpt so get a 3d picture of the molecule on paper.


I could VERY much do this if I get samples. And my friend won't get fired


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## TripSitterNZ

@epic11

Are any of those batches meh? I know some people avoid mdma that just goes straight to black. 

Reports from the 90s indicated and early 2000s indicate good product should go to a purple then to black.

Your right batch looks like it might be the type of mda/mdma. But going straight to black is common amongst people saying those batches are meh. In 2009 i tested some mdma and remeber it going through a colour change to purple darker purple then to black


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## indigoaura

Field study is a "general method for collecting data about users, user needs, and product requirements that involves observation" (usabilitybok.org › field-study).

It is not irrelevant or racist to share observations gained through field study.

The crowd that showed observable signs of being on quality MDMA were easily 95% Asian. The crowd, overall, was not 95% Asian. Obviously, a variety of hypothesis could be made about this. Perhaps, due to genetics, this group is more impacted by the effects of MDMA, or perhaps they have access to different products. Observing the crowd, however, made me recall that the good MDMA I used to receive was brought into the city by the Asian mafia according to the seller. 

I don't think it is "grasping at straws" to consider these observations and be further observant of articles etc. online that talk about drug busts, labs etc. We have already seen several articles that discuss synthesis routes as determined by precursor chemicals identified in drug busts. Perhaps an article will discuss Asian labs and synth routes, or a bust that involves the Asian mafia, or any number of possibilities that may allow for a connection between the group bringing the drug into the country, where the drug originated, and the common synthesis routes in that region. This may cast additional light on which synthesis routes are producing effective product.


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## epic11

TripSitterNZ said:


> @epic11
> 
> Are any of those batches meh? I know some people avoid mdma that just goes straight to black.
> 
> Reports from the 90s indicated and early 2000s indicate good product should go to a purple then to black.
> 
> Your right batch looks like it might be the type of mda/mdma. But going straight to black is common amongst people saying those batches are meh. In 2009 i tested some mdma and remeber it going through a colour change to purple darker purple then to black




I believe both of these batches are meh, but the MANDELIN ONLY test had a very slight difference in reactions. Like. VERY SLIGHT. One smoked, one didnt. 

When people are speaking of "straight to black" about mdma, they usually are speaking of the marquis reagent. Not mandelin. The theory is....... straight to black on mandelin = not good. But usually straight to black on marquis = good. (marquis also has that the purple to black you were referencing generally on good mdma)


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## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Field study is a "general method for collecting data about users, user needs, and product requirements that involves observation" (usabilitybok.org › field-study).
> 
> It is not irrelevant or racist to share observations gained through field study.
> 
> The crowd that showed observable signs of being on quality MDMA were easily 95% Asian. The crowd, overall, was not 95% Asian. Obviously, a variety of hypothesis could be made about this. Perhaps, due to genetics, this group is more impacted by the effects of MDMA, or perhaps they have access to different products. Observing the crowd, however, made me recall that the good MDMA I used to receive was brought into the city by the Asian mafia according to the seller.
> 
> I don't think it is "grasping at straws" to consider these observations and be further observant of articles etc. online that talk about drug busts, labs etc. We have already seen several articles that discuss synthesis routes as determined by precursor chemicals identified in drug busts. Perhaps an article will discuss Asian labs and synth routes, or a bust that involves the Asian mafia, or any number of possibilities that may allow for a connection between the group bringing the drug into the country, where the drug originated, and the common synthesis routes in that region. This may cast additional light on which synthesis routes are producing effective product.



Pretty much what i was thinking, and couldnt type it out. You are much better at words than I. Thanks for getting my thoughts down in response to Hilo. Field study! SCIENCE.


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## indigoaura

vash445 said:


> MASS SPECTRAL AND CHROMATOGRAPHIC STUDIES ON A SERIES OF
> REGIOISOMERS AND ISOBARIC DERIVATIVES RELATED TO
> METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINES
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [PDF] Mass Spectral and Chromatographic Studies on a Series Of Regioisomers and Isobaric Derivatives Related to Methylenedioxymethamphetamines | Semantic Scholar
> 
> 
> Semantic Scholar extracted view of "Mass Spectral and Chromatographic Studies on a Series Of Regioisomers and Isobaric Derivatives Related to Methylenedioxymethamphetamines" by T. Awad
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.semanticscholar.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting



We have discussed this article at length. The guy that wrote it (Tamer Awad) published several interesting, relevant articles.


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## F.U.B.A.R.

vash445 said:


> I could VERY much do this if I get samples. And my friend won't get fired



Yeh, I could also test your samples with no friends getting fired. Just send them to me and I'll give you the results in about 12 hours time...


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## indigoaura

Other relevant Tamer Awad articles:








						Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Methoxy Methyl Methamphetamines Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine
					

Abstract. The methoxy methyl methamphetamines are a unique set of compounds having an isobaric relationship with the controlled drug substance 3,4-methylenediox




					academic.oup.com
				












						GC–MS studies on acylated derivatives of 3-methoxy-4-methyl- and 4-methoxy-3-methyl-phenethylamines: Regioisomers related to 3,4-MDMA
					

A series of side chain regioisomers of 3-methoxy-4-methyl- and 4-methoxy-4-methyl-phenethylamines have mass spectra essentially equivalent to the cont…




					www.sciencedirect.com


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## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, I could also test your samples with no friends getting fired. Just send them to me and I'll give you the results in about 12 hours time...



He would too. lmao.


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## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> If it doesnt mean anything, which I dont think it does, then it really doesnt belong in the thread



This sums up a lot of the problems with science as it's become. 'If it's not relevant, don't include it. I decide on what's relevant, and thus my own personal context determines what is seen and what is missed, but don't look at that part of the equation.'

We don't know what's relevant and what's not. To exclude information because we think it's not is totally unscientific.


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## epic11

psy997 said:


> This sums up a lot of the problems with science as it's become. 'If it's not relevant, don't include it. I decide on what's relevant, and thus my own personal context determines what is seen and what is missed, but don't look at that part of the equation.'
> 
> We don't know what's relevant and what's not. To exclude information because we think it's not is totally unscientific.


BAM! Right in the KISSA!!! Exactly. So much "science" is bought and paid for these days anyway.


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## Hilopsilo

I'm sorry, its just too absurd to me that you could come even close to the conclusion that 95% asians at the festival are connected to the asian mafia that has the good shit because one person saw some of them and they looked visibly higher than other people. Is that anymore likely than that they appeared more fucked up because their pupils seem bigger due to darker eye color? On average probably weigh less than the average attendee and therefore are more sensitive? White people been in this for longer culturally and are more likely on average to have a tolerance? all those come mind before direct gang affiliation lol

It has nothing to do with science being narrow minded, theres just nothing even remotely scientific about that scenario whatsoever. should it be that science is whatever we want it to be?

My point about not including extraneous shit is that this thread is clogged up with so much stuff that realistically belongs in the mdma-social thread, anyone new to the topic shouldnt have to wade through all the filler

And here we are off track again, im willing to drop this lol



vash445 said:


> Xtc data will come back MDMA.
> 
> You need a private lab.. I HAVE 1. WE have cosy NMR, PROTON etc. Polerimeters for entiomers etc. But i need both meh and magic multiple samples



Im saying if we send in the RC you and glub posted about earlier, we should have a go at it with reagents before even bothering to send it in to ecstasydata. like i said, It doesnt seem likely to me that it could be the culprit if it doesnt even fool reagents



TripSitterNZ said:


> The only thing that wont be fooled is NMR and the numerous options on it then interpt so get a 3d picture of the molecule on paper.



The MehDMA i gave to the NMR came back as MDMA only a couple percentage points lower purity than the MagicDMA i gave them. They did pick up "trace" amounts of MDP2P in the meh sample. All we can gather from this is that the Meh sample is of poorer quality, but to what degree and why doesn't compensating the dose for the slight difference in purity not fix the problem? Do trace amount of MDP2P impact the high? Maybe, but we know virtual nothing about MDP2P and it is unlikely that a precursor would be active in order of magnitude of the drug it produces. Until we can find out more, thats kinda that


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## G_Chem

@Hilopsilo - My conclusions come from my research not what MDMA I’ve taken.. Mostly taken from the Hive, as this conversation is old as time.  As the other old school bee basically confirmed what I’ve BEEN saying... I’ve described those effects before.

Even since the time of the Hive certain synthesis routes provided a reliable product everyone loved, others were lackluster.  For example, as the other guy said ketone made from O2 Wacker often aminates to a weaker product than that made by Benzoquinone/PdCl2.  This has been reported many times before.  I suggest you do yourself some research and you’ll likely come to the same conclusions...

And believe it or not there may be some people in this conversation that have tried their hand at MDMA synthesis once or twice, not me of course but I’m sure some people in the distant past.

Also if we are to discount others festival observations then let’s throw yours out too.

-GC


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## indigoaura

@Hilopsilo You have made very valuable contributions to this thread, as one of the only people who has had access to MehDMA and Magic MDMA at the same time, with divergent results from a larger sample size, and follow up lab analysis of both samples. Your contribution is impressive. However, originally, you were resistant to the concept that there may be something wrong with the product at all. 

At the core, this thread contains a lot of contributions from people who share the same concern and are trying to add observations, links, test results, personal experiences etc. to try to come to understand what is happening. Some of those contributions are going to be more relevant than others, some will evolve into more significant realizations than others. In the process of all this sharing of information and experience, some side conversations may develop. An unexpected side effect of this conversation is that a community has formed in this thread. People feel like they know each other. A certain comfort level has been achieved. An admirable and rare thing in today's online climate.

I don't quite understand your need to control it all. 

You may not personally feel that my contribution is relevant, but I think it demonstrates what is currently going on in my city at an EDM event. Since I have been disconnected from the scene, I did not previously have ANY information about what the EDM community looked like in my city. There has been discussion over how widespread the bad product is. There has been discussion over how much the scene has been impacted. I don't feel it is outside of the context of the thread to share observations that cast light on that. So, now at least I know that one subgroup here seems to have access to legitimate product, and that may connect later to other relevant info or it may not. Not really for you to decide. 

This thread HAS become unweildly, and I do think we need a document or sticky post or something that we can update with pertinent information only. That way, those that just want to get major updates can click there and have an easy way to see recent developments. But to try to control the evolution of the conversation within the thread seems pointless to me.


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## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> @Hilopsilo - My conclusions come from my research not what MDMA I’ve taken.. Mostly taken from the Hive, as this conversation is old as time.  As the other old school bee basically confirmed what I’ve BEEN saying... I’ve described those effects before.
> 
> Even since the time of the Hive certain synthesis routes provided a reliable product everyone loved, others were lackluster.  For example, as the other guy said ketone made from O2 Wacker often aminates to a weaker product than that made by Benzoquinone/PdCl2.  This has been reported many times before.  I suggest you do yourself some research and you’ll likely come to the same conclusions...
> 
> And believe it or not there may be some people in this conversation that have tried their hand at MDMA synthesis once or twice, not me of course but I’m sure some people in the distant past.
> 
> Also if we are to discount others festival observations then let’s throw yours out too.
> 
> -GC



I'm very interested in that subject, like I said you've clearly done your research, I'm not discounting what guy from the Hive is saying, I just feel we can't make definitive statements until we have some sort of actual evidence to back it up. You gave the synthesis method an endearing nickname, that just reads as being damn sure is all i'm saying

So it "aminates" a weaker product, why? What about it is weaker and who exactly is saying so? Thats the sort of stuff we need to compile in a neat way, I'm not saying you have the time for that, but there is no way anyone can expect myself or anyone else genuinely interested in the topic (and we need those) to piece through 140 pages picking up scraps of information you've dropped along the way. I'd LOVE to see some posts where chemists are discussing how they've taken MDMA from different routes they've done and noted differences.

My festival "observation" was my own experience and 30+ close friends, I actually knew these people, actually knew what they drug they took, from which batch it came and how much they took of said drug and when. But hey, in the moment of being THAT high that Sunday night, I had a fleeting theory that the real cause of all this was that the drinking water from the groundwater at the festival grounds contains a specific chemical compound that potentiates MDMA ,and by sunday has built up in your system to blast you into that other dimension when you take MDMA, and simply everyone has a lackluster experience that first night the MDMA itself has nothing to do with it; just by Sunday night you're feeling the love so much that the MDMA gives you what you want this time  Science? Well, you have nothing to prove that _isn't _true


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## epic11

indigoaura said:


> @Hilopsilo You have made very valuable contributions to this thread, as one of the only people who has had access to MehDMA and Magic MDMA at the same time, with divergent results from a larger sample size, and follow up lab analysis of both samples. Your contribution is impressive. However, originally, you were resistant to the concept that there may be something wrong with the product at all.
> 
> At the core, this thread contains a lot of contributions from people who share the same concern and are trying to add observations, links, test results, personal experiences etc. to try to come to understand what is happening. Some of those contributions are going to be more relevant than others, some will evolve into more significant realizations than others. In the process of all this sharing of information and experience, some side conversations may develop. An unexpected side effect of this conversation is that a community has formed in this thread. People feel like they know each other. A certain comfort level has been achieved. An admirable and rare thing in today's online climate.
> 
> I don't quite understand your need to control it all.
> 
> You may not personally feel that my contribution is relevant, but I think it demonstrates what is currently going on in my city at an EDM event. Since I have been disconnected from the scene, I did not previously have ANY information about what the EDM community looked like in my city. There has been discussion over how widespread the bad product is. There has been discussion over how much the scene has been impacted. I don't feel it is outside of the context of the thread to share observations that cast light on that. So, now at least I know that one subgroup here seems to have access to legitimate product, and that may connect later to other relevant info or it may not. Not really for you to decide.
> 
> This thread HAS become unweildly, and I do think we need a document or sticky post or something that we can update with pertinent information only. That way, those that just want to get major updates can click there and have an easy way to see recent developments. But to try to control the evolution of the conversation within the thread seems pointless to me.



Thanks. Once again, your words nail the point. You never said anything as fact.


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## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> @Hilopsilo You have made very valuable contributions to this thread, as one of the only people who has had access to MehDMA and Magic MDMA at the same time, with divergent results from a larger sample size, and follow up lab analysis of both samples. Your contribution is impressive. However, originally, you were resistant to the concept that there may be something wrong with the product at all.
> 
> At the core, this thread contains a lot of contributions from people who share the same concern and are trying to add observations, links, test results, personal experiences etc. to try to come to understand what is happening. Some of those contributions are going to be more relevant than others, some will evolve into more significant realizations than others. In the process of all this sharing of information and experience, some side conversations may develop. An unexpected side effect of this conversation is that a community has formed in this thread. People feel like they know each other. A certain comfort level has been achieved. An admirable and rare thing in today's online climate.
> 
> I don't quite understand your need to control it all.
> 
> You may not personally feel that my contribution is relevant, but I think it demonstrates what is currently going on in my city at an EDM event. Since I have been disconnected from the scene, I did not previously have ANY information about what the EDM community looked like in my city. There has been discussion over how widespread the bad product is. There has been discussion over how much the scene has been impacted. I don't feel it is outside of the context of the thread to share observations that cast light on that. So, now at least I know that one subgroup here seems to have access to legitimate product, and that may connect later to other relevant info or it may not. Not really for you to decide.
> 
> This thread HAS become unweildly, and I do think we need a document or sticky post or something that we can update with pertinent information only. That way, those that just want to get major updates can click there and have an easy way to see recent developments. But to try to control the evolution of the conversation within the thread seems pointless to me.



My initial skepticism was the lack of virtually any convincing evidence (this was before any talk of other compounds that could fool a test, which I think is our biggest lead) and quasi-psuedo-science being thrown around, lots of "what ifs" that were considered leads simply because we can't prove them wrong, which is exactly what I think newcomers might see here and be turned off of the subject when it looks like we're overly confident of things we cannot confirm or flat-out, for lack of a better term, grasping as straws.

I feel if we keep it scientific, and by that I mean in terms of our methodology, just being critical thinkers and poking holes in our own damn ideas, we're more likely to gain the attention of people who can contribute in a meaningful way and take us seriously, rather being turned off by what on the surface can definitely appear to be a bunch of burnt out ravers. I'm still a bit resistant to it, like I've said before I still cannot say with 100% certainty there is a difference, I'm like 99% sure, but I have no proof and there are so many factors involved that there is a slight chance my experience can be chalked up to one or a combination of those (the better music? the music being louder? slight increase in purity? more relaxed and open by the 3rd night, more mentally "broken in"? something was mentioned earlier in the thread or elsewhere on BL that there might be a reason you roll harder the second time you roll on a weekend?)

Apologize if I came off harsh, I don't mean to belittle anyone or there experiences

I don't mean to be controlling, but if a skeptic said "alright, give me what you got on this, I'm listening", sending them this thread, a lot of it would undermine the good points being made and surely, at least to them, confirm their initial misgivings about the topic


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## indigoaura

I absolutely see your point @Hilopsilo . That is why we need to make an easier to access link with all the info. To any moderator: Can we make a sticky post that is locked that only the author can edit?

This is my current thoughts on where we stand overall (to anyone trying to catch up).


*Primary Observation:* Different batches of lab tested MDMA produce significantly different effects.

*Who is making this observation?* Both new and seasoned users across multiple continents.


*Secondary observation:* Different synthesis methods seem to result in product with varying effects.

*Who is making this observation? *Chemists from former website, The Hive


*Why is this happening?

Theory 1*: There are contaminants in addition to MDMA that may or may not show up on GCMS testing, and these contaminants compete with MDMA for receptors and/or absorption.
*a*) Undetectability due to identical/similar elutions and spectrums (e.g. see *this*)
*b*) Undetectability due to a very low level of a very potent substance.
*c*) ...or both

*Theory 2:* The questionable “MDMA” is actually one of many possible isobaries of MDMA and is indistinguishable from MDMA with GCMS testing.
*a*) Undetectability due to identical/similar elutions and spectrums (e.g. see *this*)
*b*) Undetectability due to a very low level of a very potent substance.
*c*) ...or both

*Relevant Link: *https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

*Theory 3 (Secondary): *Not all MDMA is HCL and other salt forms may produce different results.

*Theory 4 (Secondary):* Isomer ratios may impact overall effect.

*Theory 5:* The Magic MDMA always contained a potent but unknown synergistic synth byproduct, that made it "magic." Pure MDMA does not contain it, and that makes it "Meh".
*a*) Undetectability due to identical/similar elutions and spectrums (e.g. see *this*)
*b*) Undetectability due to a very low level of a very potent substance.
*c*) ...or both

_"Potent" = a substance that is pharmacologically active in the *microgram* or nanogram range. Its small amount puts it in a ppm or ppb range in the sample ratio. This makes it undetectable by spectrometry because it hides in the noise (grass) ...unless it is concentrated by targeted trituration. There are psychoactive drugs that are active in extremely small amounts, for example carfentanil, LSD, Detomidine. Now, I am not stating that MDMA contains these three - they are just examples illustrating that such potent substances are possible and actually exist (Glubrahnum). _

The takeaway from this is that theories #1 and #5 (and maybe #2) should have these three subpoints:


*Follow up question:* Is the MDMA being deliberately altered by chemists, or are these changes the accidental results of evolving synthesis methods?


*Primary Rebuttals:*


*Nothing is wrong with the product, the issue is “loss of magic” in the user.*
_False. These undesirable effects are reported from both virgin and experienced users. Experienced users note typical/expected “magic” with other batches. _


*MDMA just produces a wide variety of effects depending on set and setting. *
_False. Reports indicate the same negative effects across multiple experiences and multiple users with some batches, and the same positive experiences across multiple experiences and multiple users with other batches. The effect appears to be batch dependent. _


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## Hilopsilo

Just bumping this to parse it out a bit more



Glubrahnum said:


> Do you mean this ?
> View attachment 14908
> 
> If "yes" then this is a legal research chemical *CAS 68291-92-9* and it can be easily found in Canada and China for $50 / 100mg and since it is an isobary of MDMA, it can mimic MDMA in a Mass Spectrometer.
> 
> I wonder if it is "sleepy", too.
> 
> It would be a good chemical to test the accuracy of a Testing Center with






TripSitterNZ said:


> They are not been produced at all during any synth methods thats really streching alot of things.
> 
> Considering that pmk is the starting material it would be impossible for those things to be created during a mdma lab.
> 
> *Those things would also not react the same way with all testing kits. They would also be easily distinguishable in numerous NMR methods.*



Can we get a confirmation if this is true? Do we know if all the other mass equivalent compounds we've been considering react like MDMA with reagents? Can we infer based on how we know reagents work? If these mass equivalent compounds turn rainbow when you hit them with reagents thats a dead end as far as I'm concerned



oldskoolbee said:


> old hive bee here, some bluelight user pointed me to this thread. Won't be around much but here my input that you might appreciate and therefore a start to work on.
> 
> It's called cooking remember? different cooking recipes and procedures results in different outcomes.
> 
> you can cook a nice chunk of meat in the microwave and then sear it with a blow torch, appearance and smell will be awesome, but taste and texture (the pleasure) won't be anywhere near as a proper, slow, oven cooked roast.
> same goes for chemicals, certain routes just don't produce what's expected or it is of inferior quality.
> 
> Leuckart: high quality "MAGIC" mdma plus side products as mda, stimulating, best for clubbing, work intense/time consuming synth, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience
> 
> AL/Hg and NaBH4 reduction: best for cleanest "MAGIC" MDMA, milder than Leuckar but more intimacy and sensuality, psychedelic in it's way, work intense/time consuming, specially NaBH4, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience
> 
> Pt/Pd hydrogenation: worst product of all, this is your mehMDMA. Very little labour involved, high yielding, once the reaction is set it's just a matter of waiting for completion. Add this to the use of higher mass producing acids as tartaric or citric for the salting and here you have your 300 mg tablets that give the crappy, boring experience that is so common today.
> 
> Also: PMK synth has its weak points. In the Hive times people were experimenting with alternate routes to produce pmk from safrole, O2/Wacker was one of them, quickly abandoned because the resulting ketone was inferior and the amine derived from it was weaker and missing what makes mdma special.
> So chinese PMK glicidate might be also partially responsible for the missing effects of today's crappy mdma.
> 
> So just to clear (or confuse) a bit further: magic and meh are actually the same substance from a formula point of view, that's why no test can detect or differentiate the one from the other.
> Why the two produce so different effects? no idea, my experience in pharmacokinetics is very limited.



This feels soooooooo close to something very useful, I just feel like if all these chemists are noticing differences between the result in terms of effects, magic versus meh, yet can't decipher the actual difference between them, theres gotta be more information/investigation that was done, someone had to have had some ideas. Maybe there is somewhere we can sift through such discussions? I really want to see those solid connections being made between synth routes and the effects of the product by literally the people making it, I can't believe they'd just throw their hands up and give up on figuring out why, since it would truly seem like this crazy anomaly in chemistry


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## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> This feels soooooooo close to something very useful, I just feel like if all these chemists are noticing differences between the result in terms of effects, magic versus meh, yet can't decipher the actual difference between them, theres gotta be more information/investigation that was done, someone had to have had some ideas. Maybe there is somewhere we can sift through such discussions? I really want to see those solid connections being made between synth routes and the effects of the product by literally the people making it, I can't believe they'd just throw their hands up and give up on figuring out why, since it would truly seem like this crazy anomaly in chemistry



I think the problem is generally that cooks don't always have access to the kind of analytic equipment necessary to parse out such abnormal differences between products. At least, that's my guess. And, I imagine there's conversations from the old hive - if archived - that could have valuable information.



Hilopsilo said:


> I'm sorry, its just too absurd to me that you could come even close to the conclusion that 95% asians at the festival are connected to the asian mafia that has the good shit because one person saw some of them and they looked visibly higher than other people. Is that anymore likely than that they appeared more fucked up because their pupils seem bigger due to darker eye color? On average probably weigh less than the average attendee and therefore are more sensitive? White people been in this for longer culturally and are more likely on average to have a tolerance? all those come mind before direct gang affiliation lol



Yes, and no-one came to any conclusion. Possibly relevant pieces of information were shared, possible connections theorized, and that's it. Anything more than that was projected by you onto indigo.


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## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> *Theory 1*: There are contaminants in addition to MDMA that may or may not show up on GCMS testing, and these contaminants compete with MDMA for receptors and/or absorption.
> *Theory 2:* The questionable “MDMA” is actually one of many possible isobaries of MDMA and is indistinguishable from MDMA with GCMS testing.
> *Relevant Link: *https://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
> *Theory 3 (Secondary): *Not all MDMA is HCL and other salt forms may produce different results.
> *Theory 4 (Secondary):* Isomer ratios may impact overall effect.


I'd like to add Theory 5, not because I am a proponent of it, but because I am trying to make the list exhaustive, namely:

*Theory 5:* The Magic MDMA always contained a potent but unknown synergistic synth byproduct, that made it "magic".  Pure MDMA does not contain it and that makes it "Meh".

Note: Any time I write "potent" I mean a substance that is pharmacologically active in the *microgram* or nanogram range.  Its small amount puts it in a ppm or ppb range in the sample ratio.  This makes it undetectable by spectrometry because it hides in the noise (grass) ...unless it is concentrated by targeted trituration. There are psychoactive drugs that are active in extremely small amounts, for example carfentanil, LSD, Detomidine.  Now, I am not stating that MDMA contains these three - they are just examples illustrating that such potent substances are possible and actually exist.

The takeaway from this is that theories #1 and #5 (and maybe #2) should have these three subpoints:
*a*) Undetectability due to identical/similar elutions and spectrums (e.g. see *this*)
*b*) Undetectability due to a very low level of a very potent substance.
*c*) ...or both


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> I'd like to add Theory 5, not because I am a proponent of it, but because I am trying to make the list exhaustive, namely:
> 
> *Theory 5:* The Magic MDMA always contained a potent but unknown synergistic synth byproduct, that made it "magic".  Pure MDMA does not contain it and that makes it "Meh".
> 
> Note: Any time I write "potent" I mean a substance that is pharmacologically active in the *microgram* or nanogram range.  Its small amount puts it in a ppm or ppb range in the sample ratio.  This makes it undetectable by spectrometry because it hides in the noise (grass) ...unless it is concentrated by targeted trituration. There are psychoactive drugs that are active in extremely small amounts, for example carfentanil, LSD, Detomidine.  Now, I am not stating that MDMA contains these three - they are just examples illustrating that such potent substances are possible and actually exist.
> 
> The takeaway from this is that theories #1 and #5 (and maybe #2) should have these three subpoints:
> *a*) Undetectability due to identical/similar elutions and spectrums (e.g. see *this*)
> *b*) Undetectability due to a very low level of a very potent substance.
> *c*) ...or both



So just parroting the response I've gotten from two people I've mentioned this theory to, that both have a chemistry background like yourself and an interest in the subject: they were very skeptical that something so potent-by-weight, whether thats beneficial or detrimental to the experience, would be inadvertently created in comparison to the potency of the actual product. "Orders of magnitude" was the phrase they both used. As in, yes, things like LSD and fent are incredibly potent at those dosages, but so are the chemicals closely related to them, its not as if LSD is active at 50ug but 1-P-LSD is active at 100mg. Or MDxx have different potencies, but they're active in the same general dosage range. I dont have a background in chemistry, but that does sort of make sense

Are there any examples of chemicals where byproducts do indeed have an orders of magnitude potency? All that comes to my mind is cannabis and the entourage effect of terpenes, which everytime i try to research it always sounds quite vague on what its actually doing

As for theory 2, i think it would be helpful if we compiled all our testing resources and as much info as we can get on their methods. Since, I was told that underivitized GCMS is the one that can't tell apart mass equivalent compounds, as the study says, but that underivitized GCMS is a thing of the past and is therefore irrelevant (but we'd need to confirm the methods of testing resources touting GCMS)


----------



## Glubrahnum

Oh, I agree #5 is very unlikely, but as long as I don't have a full understanding of brain's biochemistry, I cannot exclude it.


----------



## indigoaura

@Glubrahnum I added your comments to my post.

What if I just made a thread and called it "Ongoing Summary of "What is wrong with the MDMA available today?" I would post what I just summarized, add to it as requested, and also find the link to the post that breaks down this thread by topic with links. I would add that link at the bottom of the post. 

What does everyone think of that? Moderators could lock comments on it so all the comments come here to the main thread.


----------



## yourgothgirlfriend

idk man, i've been able to get rock-form mdma very easily. it's actually harder for me to find the presses


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Unicorns and fairy dust.

QED.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> @Glubrahnum I added your comments to my post.
> 
> What if I just made a thread and called it "Ongoing Summary of "What is wrong with the MDMA available today?" I would post what I just summarized, add to it as requested, and also find the link to the post that breaks down this thread by topic with links. I would add that link at the bottom of the post.
> 
> What does everyone think of that? Moderators could lock comments on it so all the comments come here to the main thread.



The thing to do may be opening a conversation with moderators and seeing what they find most appropriate - considering, if I remember correctly, we already had an ancillary thread closed and merged back into this one.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> What if I just made a thread and called it "Ongoing Summary of "What is wrong with the MDMA available today?"


It would have to be a locked thread in which only elected members or analytical minds and scientists can post.  No unicorns.


----------



## indigoaura

Yes, it would have to be locked. I assumed whoever posts the thread would have to be the person to update it, but if there is a way to assign multiple people to add to it, that would be great. That way, if someone goes AWOL, more than just one person could update. But, definitely locked.


----------



## psy997

I'm only for the idea if it can be accessed by multiple people. It would be great if the new Xenforo forum software allowed that, otherwise we may need another option. Maybe a sticky of a short post including a link to the always updated document?


----------



## indigoaura

How do we keep a document anonymous though? I build websites for a few non-profits, and I could set a website up, but that is a little too trackable for my preferences. Google docs is also too easily tracked. What about a shared wiki page?


----------



## psy997

This looks like a good place to start, tons of different services to check out here: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-tool-for-creating-free-online-private-Wikis


----------



## indigoaura

Maybe we can make a page here?









						BlogACause now open for anonymous advocacy blogging about causes you champion.
					

BlogACause now open for anonymous advocacy blogging about causes you champion. Do you have a movement or principle that you believe in passionately? BlogACause.com provides you the opportunity to blog for change anonymously. - PR10168564




					www.prlog.org


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Maybe we can make a page here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BlogACause now open for anonymous advocacy blogging about causes you champion.
> 
> 
> BlogACause now open for anonymous advocacy blogging about causes you champion. Do you have a movement or principle that you believe in passionately? BlogACause.com provides you the opportunity to blog for change anonymously. - PR10168564
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.prlog.org



too open, if you really want to do this, it has to be on a hidden site.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Glubrahnum said:


> I did not have multiple ones, but the experience was so profound that it changed my attitude to other people permanently (for the better).  e.g. I couldn't believe that downtown could be so beautiful - it was never so beautiful before!  I went into a club. The music felt like it was enveloping me and carrying it in it wings. I could actually talk to strangers without being stiff as usual and I imagined that I felt what they felt as the conversation unfolded (or maybe I really did).  I actually touched other people on the dancefloor (I would never go there nor do that before). A day prior, I was an antisocial mega nerd ...but a week after it I started to learn dancing.
> 
> From the pharmacological side it was 85mg of the racemic hydrochloride salt that was A/B purified with various solvents and column chromatography with extremely low yield. I won't even mention the testing regime. Think "nerd" and go figure.
> Anyway, I dissolved that in orange juice for ingestion on an empty stomach and had a tingling comeup within half an hour, 5.5h duration, full mydriasis and associated optical consequences, strong trismus, higher pulse and BP, slight hyperthermia, heightened skin sensitivity, impotence, changed sense of taste.  The physical comedown lasted 2 days and was not severe (just blue).  However I think I experienced cognitive slowdown for approximately 3 weeks afterwards because I could not solve a technical problem that I should be able to solve normally in a day, or I was just distracted with the newly discovered emotional dimension and could not concentrate.
> 
> ...all that from 85mg in a 85kg male first-timer....and I still remember every minute of it after all this time.



Thanks for sharing. First time I had MDMA, probably a similar dose to yours, was at a rave following the first night of a festival. I didn't really notice much from it - I was awake all night, but probably would have been anyway. It was over breakfast the following morning that I was laughing a whole lot and felt fucking awesome. I had an afterglow similar to what I experience after a good acid trip.

The next night, I purchased more from some blonde girls with eyes that could light up a room. They were noticeably loved-up, hugged me then walked off before I'd even paid them for their drugs. Just looking at them made me want to be on what they were on.

That was my first real MDMA experience. Me and a few close friends sat talking until sunrise. I felt like I was on a cloud floating over some utopian island as angel-eyed punters from the festival drifted all around us. I really felt like something, something very meaningful, had happened.. and not just to me. I went home after that weekend feeling like there some hope for the world.

I wish, that like you, I had have just left it to that one experience.

I have reports written for basically every MDMA experience I had over the next few years. Never unpleasant; some nights were spent on the couch chatting, other times we'd be dancing all day and night at festivals. I get about as much variance in effect from MDMA as I do from pharmaceutical opioids, benzos and stimulants, as well as every other psychedelic I've taken and also weed.

I put the variability down to dose, set and setting and with clandestine manufactured drugs, purity is a factor and also the care that was put into manufacturing clean product.

I don't think there is as much weight to the first-time user thing as you put on it. I know several people who didn't really 'get it' the first time.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

NZ had a 20k music festival last night news report from goers indicate people were on either good mdma or meth and cathiones.

Teens reported most people were friendly and touching indicating some good mdma then the other people who were anrgy psychos on meth fighting people the crowd seemed split.

Mabye since this country is small what gets in as mdma or cooked here in last few years is getting better and better and mainly magic mdma unlike the previous decade where you needed serious contacts overseas to have the good stuff.

If any idiot teens can get magic mdma here then it should be more common than bad shit over the world


----------



## AutoTripper

Kaden_Nite said:


> I went home after that weekend feeling like there some hope for the world.


Yep, that must be MDMA alright, it has been known for inducing grand illusions in susceptible individuals.  


Kaden_Nite said:


> I don't think there is as much weight to the first-time user thing as you put on it. I know several people who didn't really 'get it' the first time.



I strongly agree with that, and I really detest that assertion- "It will never be like your first time...."  
A number of us old skoolers have expressed the same feelings on that. Myself and others believe that the magic is there to be had almost indefinitely given the right product used sensibly.


----------



## NewTopic

Comment from discussion [account deleted]'s comment from discussion "From glycidate to MDMA one step... no ketone? someone did it?".
The most common form of PMK Glycidate (ethyl ester) is produced on an industrial scale from piperonal and ethyl 2-chloropropionate, and *ethyl 2-chloropropionate IS typically produced in enantiopure form* (by nature of being made from natural L-alanine), so this would add credence to your theory that one form of MDMA would be favored from one-pot PMK Glycidate chemistry as it seems reasonable to expect that the PMK Glycidate made from enantiopure ethyl 2-chloropropionate will possess an enantiomeric excess itself. I am unaware of what one-pot reaction it is that said chemists would be using, but interesting nonetheless, might try to look up/figure out later if I'm not too busy.


----------



## vecktor

The proposed chemistry from PMK glycidate is a one pot multi step reaction where the intermediate ketone is formed, and then aminated. the ketone is guaranteed to be achiral 100%

The PMK glycidate to PMK reaction is either basic or acid hydrolysis to the free acid or salt then protonation of the oxirane oxygen, ring opening to the benzylic cation,  followed by decarboxylation to give an enol which rearranges to a ketone (PMK). There is of course an interesting alternative reaction pathway where the oxirane opens the other way, giving a tertiary cation intermediate and resulting in a propiophenone rather than a phenylacetone, this would give M-Alpha on reductive amination. The benzylic cation is so hugely more stable than the tertiary carbocation so that this should be a minor product but stranger things can happen.

It is quite clear that the acid catalysed reaction could be combined with reductive amination in one pot because the reaction products would be excess acid if liquid acid is used, unreacted glycidic acid, methanol or ethanol and some abnormal ring opened glycidic acid compounds none of which would prevent reductive amination of the PMK present. There doesn't seem to be much advantage to doing it one pot and it seems likely that the manufacturers are isolating or extracting the crude PMK from the PMK glycidate reaction.

The forensic markers for reductive amination are still most commonly found post 2010 when the PMK glycidate route became popular suggesting that the intermediate is still PMK but that this is made from PMK glycidate starting material. Simon Brandt is probably the person to ask as he has spent years messing about with forensic analysis of illicit drug trace markers.

There is no obvious alternative reaction path from PMK glycidate to MDMA that doesn't involve going through an achiral intermediate. 

Therefore it is likely that the enantiomer hypothesis is still a wild goose chase.

there remains some interesting possibilities on the chemical side.

It may be possible to screw up the PMK glycidate synthesis to give something that is not MDMA but that passes reagent tests and is close enough to fool the testing organisations.  Actually that is not as unlikely as it sounds because they don't really care enough to look very hard.
Likewise It may also be possible to screw up helional synthesis to give something that likewise is not MDMA but passes reagent tests.

The whole MDMA from one Wacker variation is weaker or whatever nonsense from the old Hive Bees is bull, the reason is simple Wacker is known to produce things other than PMK, and these impurities are carried all the way through the synthesis into the end product. Very few bees had the equipment ability or skills to analyse their product and so impure product or completely the wrong product is clearly possible. MDMA is MDMA however it is made. that said products sold as MDMA could be anything. 

TBH though I don't care enough about this to dig any deeper.

Finally be wary of taking anything that Mike Power writes at face value, or trying to add in logical conclusions. He is a journalist first and foremost and providing entertainment is his game. He has very limited understanding of the subtleties of what he sees but he writes a good story. He used to post on BL, maybe he can post the route from PMK glycidate to MDMA he has in this thread and people would know whether there is any chance of a chiral product being in wide circulation. It is no great secret, anyone with the skills to do this could easily figure it out all for themselves. The answer is going to be disappointing.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> The proposed chemistry from PMK glycidate is a one pot multi step reaction where the intermediate ketone is formed, and then aminated. the ketone is guaranteed to be achiral 100%
> 
> The PMK glycidate to PMK reaction is either basic or acid hydrolysis to the free acid or salt then protonation of the oxirane oxygen, ring opening to the benzylic cation,  followed by decarboxylation to give an enol which rearranges to a ketone (PMK). There is of course an interesting alternative reaction pathway where the oxirane opens the other way, giving a tertiary cation intermediate and resulting in a propiophenone rather than a phenylacetone, this would give M-Alpha on reductive amination. The benzylic cation is so hugely more stable than the tertiary carbocation so that this should be a minor product but stranger things can happen.
> 
> It is quite clear that the acid catalysed reaction could be combined with reductive amination in one pot because the reaction products would be excess acid if liquid acid is used, unreacted glycidic acid, methanol or ethanol and some abnormal ring opened glycidic acid compounds none of which would prevent reductive amination of the PMK present. There doesn't seem to be much advantage to doing it one pot and it seems likely that the manufacturers are isolating or extracting the crude PMK from the PMK glycidate reaction.
> 
> The forensic markers for reductive amination are still most commonly found post 2010 when the PMK glycidate route became popular suggesting that the intermediate is still PMK but that this is made from PMK glycidate starting material. Simon Brandt is probably the person to ask as he has spent years messing about with forensic analysis of illicit drug trace markers.
> 
> There is no obvious alternative reaction path from PMK glycidate to MDMA that doesn't involve going through an achiral intermediate.
> 
> Therefore it is likely that the enantiomer hypothesis is still a wild goose chase.
> 
> there remains some interesting possibilities on the chemical side.
> 
> It may be possible to screw up the PMK glycidate synthesis to give something that is not MDMA but that passes reagent tests and is close enough to fool the testing organisations.  Actually that is not as unlikely as it sounds because they don't really care enough to look very hard.
> Likewise It may also be possible to screw up helional synthesis to give something that likewise is not MDMA but passes reagent tests.
> 
> The whole MDMA from one Wacker variation is weaker or whatever nonsense from the old Hive Bees is bull, the reason is simple Wacker is known to produce things other than PMK, and these impurities are carried all the way through the synthesis into the end product. Very few bees had the equipment ability or skills to analyse their product and so impure product or completely the wrong product is clearly possible. MDMA is MDMA however it is made. that said products sold as MDMA could be anything.
> 
> TBH though I don't care enough about this to dig any deeper.
> 
> Finally be wary of taking anything that Mike Power writes at face value, or trying to add in logical conclusions. He is a journalist first and foremost and providing entertainment is his game. He has very limited understanding of the subtleties of what he sees but he writes a good story. He used to post on BL, maybe he can post the route from PMK glycidate to MDMA he has in this thread and people would know whether there is any chance of a chiral product being in wide circulation. It is no great secret, anyone with the skills to do this could easily figure it out all for themselves. The answer is going to be disappointing.




I know when Helional MDA comes in it's that brown dirt, it's $5k a kilo on the DN. It's def been confirmed helional.. I don't know what a curits reaction what look like for MDMA...  I know they also SOMEHOW made MDp2p from helional  via a novel rearrangement but how I have no idea.


----------



## Glubrahnum

vecktor said:


> There is of course an interesting alternative reaction pathway where the oxirane opens the other way, giving a tertiary cation intermediate and resulting in a propiophenone rather than a phenylacetone, this would give *M-Alpha* on reductive amination.


MAPLHA was on the list of class of isobaric compounds, that *vash445* has discussed around *this post*.

Also, a related compound ( PubChem CID 85777948 ) *is documented* to elute in some chromatographies and to fragment in mass spectroscopy, in the same manner as 3,4-MDMA.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Does any one know what what potentialy lethal MDMA mimicking substance does UK's National Crime Agency refer to in *this video* ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Glubrahnum said:


> Does any one know what what potentialy lethal MDMA mimicking substance does UK's National Crime Agency refer to in *this video* ?


that is PMA. But those pills are not a mimick. They are 300 mg + mdma and have killed so many of the dumb cunts in the UK who dropped 3-4 of them at one time


----------



## vecktor

Glubrahnum said:


> MAPLHA was on the list of class of isobaric compounds, that *vash445* has discussed around *this post*.
> 
> Also, a related compound ( PubChem CID 85777948 ) *is documented* to elute in some chromatographies and to fragment in MS spectroscopy, in the same manner as 3,4-MDMA.


the first compound M Alpha elutes at different time and has a different fragmentation pattern, however it does have similar fragments but in different abundance. It wouldn't fool an analyst who had sufficient knowledge or experience.

The second compound whilst it co-elutes in the specific conditions of the paper, so what!  (I would like to say the paper is written in a way that doesn't give much confidence in the authors skills) and has a similar fragmentation it is sufficiently different not to hit on the database <80% RSD or fool a skilled analyst. there is also no way that the compound is commonplace 2,3 methylenedioxy is not a common substitution pattern in any cheap industrial material, and it cannot arise from heliotropin piperonal or PMK (MDP2P) under any conceivable chemistry. Forget that compound as a possibility.

There is another compound however that might fit the criteria, that is the compound derived by reductive amination of helional, 3-( 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl) 2-methyl propanamine, Isobaric with MDMA. it will pass marquis and mandelin and it has completely (to me) unknown pharmacology, I would guess it is a mild sedative like the other phenylbutanamines but who knows. I can't be bothered to look up whether it is in the paper, I would expect the fragmentation pattern under EI  to be different to MDMA because of the different side chain fragment and the primary amine.

there are a lot of compounds with the molecular formula C11H15NO2 all of which are isobaric with  MDMA I would guess tens of thousands. having the same molecular weight is not something special. The paper you reference is pretty dumb because no one is going to identify a compound by the molecular ion especially with hard ionisation like 50 eV EI GCMS, the fragmentation is going to tell the analyst what is there. Propylimine m/z 58 is the base peak with MDMA like compounds along with the methylenedioxyphenyl cation at 135 however the 2,3 substitution is distinguishable from 3,4 and this is well documented.

If you have 20 years experience with GCMS it wouldn't fool you if you had a reference sample of MDMA under the same GC and MS conditions.


----------



## Glubrahnum

This is what vash445 suggested:


The real question is whether the official testing centers are fooled by these compounds, not whether they can be differentiated by someone determined and diligent.


----------



## indigoaura

Who is working at these testing centers? Are they likely to be people with 20+ years experience, or are they more likely to be younger volunteers or trainees?

Seems like a pertinent question to post to any of these testing centers would be: "What do you do when a sample looks almost identical to MDMA, but there is some slight variation, and you have no other match in your database? Do you mark the product as MDMA, or do you mark the product as unknown?"


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Who is working at these testing centers? Are they likely to be people with 20+ years experience, or are they more likely to be younger volunteers or trainees?
> 
> Seems like a pertinent question to post to any of these testing centers would be: "What do you do when a sample looks almost identical to MDMA, but there is some slight variation, and you have no other match in your database? Do you mark the product as MDMA, or do you mark the product as unknown?"


Chemists who have considerable experince in the field they send samples to very professional drug labs


----------



## vecktor

Glubrahnum said:


> This is what vash445 suggested:
> View attachment 15447
> 
> The real question is whether the official testing centers are fooled by these compounds, not whether they can be differentiated by someone determined and diligent.


easy way to find out, buy the compound from cayman or bio and send it to the testing centres saying it is MDMA. I wager you will be disappointed with the performance of the testers. Energy control certainly have issues others probably also have issues.
In general forensic analysts are those that are not good enough to get jobs in pharma, look at the pay differences between forensic and pharma, you get what you pay for.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vecktor said:


> easy way to find out, buy the compound from cayman or bio and send it to the testing centres saying it is MDMA. I wager you will be disappointed with the performance of the testers. Energy control certainly have issues others probably also have issues.
> In general forensic analysts are those that are not good enough to get jobs in pharma, look at the pay differences between forensic and pharma, you get what you pay for.


this is true when i graduated in chemistry i was pretty heavily affected by drugs and just did meager jobs with HPLC all day for minimum wage like a lab monkey for years. Those who are doing these jobs are usually fresh graduates that didn't have the brains to go onto masters or phd.


----------



## epic11

Nice to see some more REAL talk going on about this. Im just here for the ride. Get it bluelight, this must be figured out.


----------



## epic11

Setting change imminent, new product imminent. Gonna see whats up.


----------



## indigoaura

Drugs Data (formerly Ecstasy Data) responded to my query and I have sent them the Tamer Awad article and asked if it is possible that substances are being misidentified as MDMA. So far, they have been more responsive than International Energy Control. I will let all of you know what they say. 

Also, for what it is worth, International Energy Control confirmed through email that they do not check MDMA samples for mercury. They said they would need a much larger sample size than what people send through the mail. (I had emailed them asking how much I would need to send for their PDF + mercury testing.) I replied to them and asked them if that meant no MDMA samples were ever checked for heavy metals, and they never responded. That was definitely the impression their email gave me.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Drugs Data (formerly Ecstasy Data) responded to my query and I have sent them the Tamer Awad article and asked if it is possible that substances are being misidentified as MDMA. So far, they have been more responsive than International Energy Control. I will let all of you know what they say.
> 
> Also, for what it is worth, International Energy Control confirmed through email that they do not check MDMA samples for mercury. They said they would need a much larger sample size than what people send through the mail. (I had emailed them asking how much I would need to send for their PDF + mercury testing.) I replied to them and asked them if that meant no MDMA samples were ever checked for heavy metals, and they never responded. That was definitely the impression their email gave me.



Interesting data points. Thanks indigo. A good question there indeed.


----------



## AutoTripper

I dont get that sometimes, when somebody is cooperating then all of a sudden doesn't respond to a legitimate and relevant enquiry which could be really helpful and useful for you to have some feedback on.

Like they have an ulterior motive for not telling you the truth all being sheepish and cagey. My imagination was running just then envisaging what sort of scenario in which they would not want to disclose any information or a simple answer.

I think they probably just couldn't be bothered to respond, leaving you to guess and infer but I even imagined they were embarrassed by their own inadequacies and and shortcomings in this field.

You never know maybe at heart it can touch a nerve for them to feel that their work is only so much use.

Haha, ignore me guys I'm just high and I imagine stuff all the time (which works out occasionally because sometimes what I imagine turns out to be true lol).

Hope you all do well this evening.


----------



## psy997

AutoTripper said:


> but I even imagined they were embarrassed by their own inadequacies and and shortcomings in this field.



I'd bet all my money on this.


----------



## AutoTripper

psy997 said:


> I'd bet all my money on this.


The truth hurts as they say. Still I wish all people could just be bigger men and be honest and say ok we are specialised in that and this has been neglected blah blah and just be honest about it you know what I mean? 

But then I was born with a chip in my brain which forces me to be honest even if it is entirely inappropriate as you have surely all observed by now haha I really can't help myself, thank you all for bearing with me.


----------



## epic11

AutoTripper said:


> The truth hurts as they say. Still I wish all people could just be bigger men and be honest and say ok we are specialised in that and this has been neglected blah blah and just be honest about it you know what I mean?
> 
> But then I was born with a chip in my brain which forces me to be honest even if it is entirely inappropriate as you have surely all observed by now haha I really can't help myself, thank you all for bearing with me.



I seriously love this dude. lmao.


----------



## indigoaura

Drugs Data has replied to me, and they appear to be taking this issue seriously.

Their most recent email (in response to the Tamer Awad article: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y ):



> Thanks for the reply and the thesis, that's super helpful. Definitely
> gets us on the same page.
> 
> The two main types of differences being described are:
> 
> 1) where the methylene dioxy group is attached to the benzens ring (2,3
> versus 3,4)
> 
> 2) how the carbons are attached to the amine chain
> 
> right?
> 
> It looks like our supplier does have analytical standards for some of these, I haven't gone through them all yet, but for instance
> 
> So, I think the next step is that we (you and I together) need to try to make a complete list of the chemicals from this paper that might have similar mass spectrums to MDMA. And then figure out if they are available from Cayman or another source.
> 
> Figure 15 on page 130 and figure 30 on page 177 have several chemicals that have the big 58 major ion peak that is the thing we're mostly looking for in terms of
> chemicals that Mass Spec could confuse with MDMA.
> 
> A bunch of those seem to be named things like "compound 22", so that's super difficult to move ahead with. I think I'm seeing that compounds 14 through 23 all have their major mass ion at 58, so
> 
> 1 : 2,3-MDMA has a similar structure and mass spectrum. Available from
> Cayman. https://www.caymanchem.com/product/13970/
> 
> 2 : ?? What else can you find me in this document that is a named
> chemical that we could find somewhere?
> 
> I'm going to forward this to our senior analytical chemistry advisor and
> see if he can come up with a way to move forward with these interesting
> questions.
> 
> But, if you or your friends want to try to go through that paper and try to find the page numbers and other identifying info for the structures or names of compounds that might possibly have similar mass spectrums to 3,4-MDMA , that would speed up this process a lot.



I need some help with this from the more chemistry minded people here. @Glubrahnum @G_Chem Can one of you reply to the questions they are posing?

This is exciting, because it is the first time I have gotten back an email where someone really seemed to take this seriously.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> This is exciting, because it is the first time I have gotten back an email where someone really seemed to take this seriously.


Well done Indigo and that is what you get for persevering, fortunately there are serious people in this world and it was only a matter of time before somebody would acknowledge the increasing wafts of smoke serving as legitimate evidence with actually lots to examine on paper.

So definitely exciting you could say and and I think we could be confident that at least some revelation will come from this.

Let's hope so anyway. Good work so far.


----------



## Hilopsilo

BRAVOOOOO INDIGOOOOOO


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> need some help with this from the more chemistry minded people here. @Glubrahnum @G_Chem Can one of you reply to the questions they are posing?


These are the compound IDs, that  I would recommend them to test in descending order of probability for matching *Theory #1 or #2*:

PubChem CID 24264757
CAS 68291-92-9
PubChem CID 85777948
PubChem CID 43583295
PubChem CID 19894326
CAS 68291-93-0
PubChem CID 14153432
CAS 1221725-76-3
PubChem CID 82605176
PubChem CID 14647597
PubChem CID 83685199
PubChem CID 584519

All of them have exactly the same molecular formula as MDMA ...and masses, too.

P.S.
Most of these compounds are *not* mentioned in that *Tamer Awad paper*, but some of them are mentioned in the *Aalberg paper*.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> A bunch of those seem to be named things like "compound 22", so that's super difficult to move ahead with.


The chemical formulae depicted in *this post* are graphically identical to the formulae used in that *Tamer Awad paper*.
Based on that graphical similarity/identity, now even someone who does not know the chemistry, can figure out what "compound 22" is, by visually correlating the formulae on pages 105, 131, 152.

So for compound #22 that would match the simplified name:
4-methoxy-3-methylmethamphetamine

...a quick Google search yields the IUPAC name:
1-(4-Methoxy-3-methylphenyl)-N-methylpropan-2-amine
or...
PubChem CID 21150468

For your convenience, below are Google translations of *these compound names* into PubChem Compound IDs  ( CIDs ):

2,3-MDMA = CID 71750309
α,α-dimethyl-1-(2,3-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-ethanamine = CID 13051794
1-(2,3-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanamine = CID 55254953
N,N-dimethyl-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-ethanamine = CID 12816914
N-ethyl-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-ethanamine = CID 10776
α,α-dimethyl-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-ethanamine = CID 13020598
1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-butanamine = CID 129870
N-ethyl-1-(2,3-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-ethanamine = CID 85777948
N,N-dimethyl-1-(2,3-methylenedioxy-phenyl)-2-ethanamine = CID 85777947

o-methoxymethcathinone = CID 82101005
p-methoxymethcathinone = CID 216281
m-methoxymethcathinone = CID 82281626

2-Methoxy-3-Methyl-methamphetamine = CID 3064708
2-Methoxy-4-methylmethamphetamine = CID 15128234
2-Methoxy-5-methylmethamphetamine = CID 24841335
2-Methoxy-6-methylmethamphetamine = CID 84733125
3-Methoxy-2-methylmethamphetamine = CID 91693755
3-Methoxy-4-methylmethamphetamine = CID 76548696
3-Methoxy-5-methylmethamphetamine = CID 91693756
4-Methoxy-2-methylmethamphetamine = CID 68364247
4-Methoxy-3-methylmethamphetamine = CID 21150468
5-Methoxy-2-methylmethamphetamine = CID 91693862


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Drugs Data has replied to me, and they appear to be taking this issue seriously.
> 
> Their most recent email (in response to the Tamer Awad article: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y ):
> 
> 
> 
> I need some help with this from the more chemistry minded people here. @Glubrahnum @G_Chem Can one of you reply to the questions they are posing?
> 
> This is exciting, because it is the first time I have gotten back an email where someone really seemed to take this seriously.



Holy crap, thanks for this, and honestly having the balls to do it all in 2019. Thats passion, trust me.

Ill have some more data points soon as well.


----------



## epic11

I just told a buddy of mine that this "mehdma" shit feels a lot like mda without the visual part. Right after i said that, he said "omg i was about to say the same exact thing" 

2 people agreeing on meh feelings once more. I think we have established this pretty strongly now, but there ya have it. Ive never worded it this way, but maybe theres something to it?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> Also, it is important to protect your eyes from the UV and this can be done with a clear polycarbonate sheet.  Even cheap polycarbonate safety glasses will make a diffference, but if you can get a thicker sheet then get it
> ...just remember: Protect your eyes from the UV with polycarbonate. Do NOT protect the TLC plate from the UV !  (protect the plate from the visible light, though).



Sorry I've been out of the loop for a few days.  I actually made a big box where none of the light could escape, and used my phone to view/take picture, again covering the only hole left so I wasn't exposed.  I'll get hold of the uv pass filter and do some comprehensive testing.  Thanks for all the help


----------



## babooon87

epic11 said:


> I just told a buddy of mine that this "mehdma" shit feels a lot like mda without the visual part. Right after i said that, he said "omg i was about to say the same exact thing"
> 
> 2 people agreeing on meh feelings once more. I think we have established this pretty strongly now, but there ya have it. Ive never worded it this way, but maybe theres something to it?



YES ! Last year I was sold white crystals that were supposed to be "MDA". I was really excited as I love MDA and had not seen any in many years. I consumed this batch twice and while the effects were pretty good it lacked the visual signature which is unique to MDA and that I always recognized very easily. If it was not for that lack of visuals I could have thought it was MDA as the body high was the same (stoning, couch lock) as was the duration (quite a bit longer than MDMA). At that time I did not bother to send it for analysis as I just figured it was just another empathogenic RC (I had not seen this thread yet at the time) It was different from the MehDMA I got a year later. Could there also be a MehDA ?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I've tended to find the MDA just as meh as the MDMA.  Just with more visuals


----------



## indigoaura

@Glubrahnum The link you posted to the Aalborg paper is broken. Do you have a title for the paper, or another way to access it? Also, where did those images of the regioisomers etc. come from originally? Are they from the Aalborg paper?

Also, they had this query today:



> I still don't know what you mean by "isobaries".
> Are you talking about barometry? Th Isobaric as in deltaP = 0?
> I honestly have no idea.
> 
> Given the context, the closest I'm able to guess is that you're talking about how a specific chemical moves through a GC column under pressure.
> 
> If you know how to define it, I'd like to know!


----------



## indigoaura

Yup. It says, "You are not authorized to download this file."


----------



## indigoaura

Appears to be:


			https://srv-file1.gofile.io/download/89LsB8/2000_Aalberg_5232_1.pdf


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> Are you talking about barometry? Th Isobaric as in deltaP = 0?


No, in Greek "βάρος", "βαρύς" = "weight", "heavy", so "isobaric" means "equally heavy" ( Δm = 0 )
In this case, "m" refers to the  *molar mass* of a chemical compound. For MDMA that is 193g/mole.

The words "*Barycenter*" and "*Baryon*" have similar etymologies.
Also, in nuclear physics "*isobars*" are atoms of different chemical elements with different atomic numbers but the same atomic *mass* .


----------



## Glubrahnum

babooon87 said:


> Could there also be a MehDA ?


If the MDA was manufactured from Helional then it could suffer from a similar problem as MDMA manufactured from it. Actually, Helional is a better precursor for MDA than for MDMA.
The details of it are described in the last weeks of this thread.


----------



## vash445

Glubrahnum said:


> If the MDA was manufactured from Helional then it could suffer from a similar problem as MDMA manufactured from it. Actually, Helional is a better precursor for MDA than for MDMA.
> The details of it are described in the last weeks of this thread.




There are 2 ways thou to MDMA from Helinol thou. One is a curtis rearrangement going via a azide. The other is Somebody in australia made MDP2P from helional but it is VERY VERY hidden I cann't get the article. Eitherway MDA is Much eaiser due to the "known" semi one pot method of MDA via the oxime and nitrile . ANd YES MehDa exists someone complained I forget where that there kilo of MDA from the darknet had this 2-chloro-4,5-methylenedioxyamphetamine or similar as a major impurity and made the MDA inactive


The DARK Side of Total Synthesis: Strategies and Tactics in Psychoactive Drug Production
The Shulze lab recently published an MDMA synthesis that features a Curtius rearrangement (Scheme 27).89Treatment of helional (157) with sodium propionate and propionic anhydride resulted in a Perkin reaction to give unsaturated carboxylic acid 158. Olefin hydrogenation followed by acyl chloride synthesis gave (±)-159. At this point, generation of the acyl azide and subsequent Curtius rearrangement provided an isocyanate. Exposure of this intermediate to t-BuOK gave the corresponding Boc carbamate. N-Methylation followed by acid mediated Boc deprotection provided (±)-MDMA (129) which was isolated as its oxalate salt.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/sc33y9cvobbg66t/schulze2010.pdf/file


The synthesis of 3, 4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (MDP2P) from helional
The aim of this project is to investigate the synthesis of MDP2P from helional via a novel synthetic pathway. Principal researcher: Sean Davis Research supervisor: Dr Peter Culshaw Collaborators: Peter Vallely, ACIC Dr Sarah Cresswell, Griffith University
Short Communication: A Novel Synthesis of 3,4-Methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (MDP2P) from Helional.
Article · July 2017 with 590 Reads · Download citation
Sean Davis
7.71- Queensland Health


----------



## Hilopsilo

epic11 said:


> I just told a buddy of mine that this "mehdma" shit feels a lot like mda without the visual part. Right after i said that, he said "omg i was about to say the same exact thing"
> 
> 2 people agreeing on meh feelings once more. I think we have established this pretty strongly now, but there ya have it. Ive never worded it this way, but maybe theres something to it?



I'd say MDA lacks the magic euphoria that MagicDMA has in the same way that MehDMA does, but its not as pronounced or maybe that MDA has other magical factors to it that make up for it, I find MDA has this earthy, erotic vibe to it. MehDMA feels lacking in all departments, no spark to it.

I've had MDA 2, maybe 4 times, 1 time was very magical visual experience, i remember preferring it over MDMA for the energy right away. Walked home from the show that ended at 4am, probably 3-4 hours walk and the visuals were equivalent to if not stronger than some LSD trips I've had, but these visuals crept in after the roll sort of ended. But it didn't let me sleep til noon the next day, lasted waaaaaaay longer than MDMA. i remember laying in bed in a delirious daze trying to sleep for hours and hours going in and out of weird waking dream states. felt like speedier, trippier, sweatier MDMA, as people described to me. Felt like MDA was as magical MDMA, but maybe not as purely euphoric. (reagent tested as MDA). Clear, colorless, scentless.

(the next two times I believe I was just sold plain MehDMA with maybe a small amount of MDMA mixed in, incomplete feeling of euphoria, little or no visuals, and lacked the hangover of the MDA I had the first time. Wasn't as energetic as the first time. (both times only had test for MDxx). neither were clear, tan or brown)

The 4th time I had it, reagent tested and vouched for as very strong, I took it after taking LSD, visuals came on very strong, incredibly stoning, literally melted into the earth. Completely lacked the energy of the first time I had it, girlfriend's first time with it instantly called it "melty molly". Roll was short from it though, and it dropped off abruptly, peak was basically blackout though. Had a bit of the stimmed out hangover feeling of the first time which came on much quicker, overall shorter experience. Lovier and lower energy than the first time, Surely the LSD impacted the experience.Clear, colorless, not sure if scentless.

in retrospect, my first experience is sort of what I imagine pure s-isomer MDA would be like, and last would have been what I pure imagine pure r-isomer MDA would be.

I also notice it is more common for MDA to be clear, scentless translucent crystals than MDMA, that was the form I had it in but at the same time there is a lot of that darker colored "sass" which I've personally never taken.

_"If I'm not mistaken, if you obtain large enough MDMA crystals, and they are both colourless and very transparent, there is a good chance that it is mostly isomerically pure as light would refract non-linearly through a racemic mixture, creating a cloudy and only translucent appearance on the crystal, whereas a more pure isomer would have a much clearer and more transparent crystal since the light is refracting through identically oriented crystalline structure." - Reddit_

Is there any truth in this? I know stereoisomers have been discussed at length but haven't heard this mentioned.

EDIT: Is this one of you all?

"_As you can see two people have posted the BlueLight thread. I myself have been with that thread for a long time now and can shed some light on this topic.

Was the MDMA different in the early to mid 90’s?? The answer to that question is most likely, Yes. Was it better? Now that is arguable and I’ll explain why in a minute.

In the late 80’s as popularity of MDMA was booming the production wasn’t coming close to meeting the ever growing demand. The production shifted over to the already established illegal chemists who were synthesizing amphetamine at the time.

The route these speed chemists were using was the “Leuckart.” It only takes minor tweaking for thiscroute to also be used on MDMA. So the speed chemists took up MDMA as well. (It’s my theory the the old famed ox blood speed came from this route, as well as the legendary Uncle Toms Pink Sassafras.)

The Leuckart is a dirty process known to produce psychoactive impurities. It was these impurities that altered the effects and gave the 90’s MDMA something special.

Looking at research articles on synthesis route trends and piecing things together best we can, it appears the use of the Leuckart correlated perfectly with the time which MDMA was supposedly “better” and went out of use exactly when it changed.

Further evidence to support the change is the change in the Marquis color reaction. It actually used to go a dark cobalt blue to black, this is seen on the very first EZ test color chart. As well as reading threads from the 90’s, it’s clear that good MDMA according to kids back then tested blue to black.

Once the synthesis route changed in the late 90’s (mostly due to better yields and more pure product from other routes) the reaction went from blue to black, to purple to black. This caused MUCH confusion as the color chart showed MDE to do this, and with the added change of effects in the MDMA it had people baffled.

In fact, one Hive thread I read the guy claimed he had to synthesize his own MDXX using Leuckart to get that old school feeling he had been missing from the recent change of MDMA.

If you notice there has been one other big synthesis trend change over the years. This occurred in late 00’s when they burned all the safrole in SE Asia. This is also another time in MDMA history where people claim the MDMA changed in effect. This is when PMK glycidate made from piperanol became the new way to go.

It should be noted that during this second major synthesis trend change, the Marquis reagent reaction changed again. Nowadays it’s very common to find MDMA that will go straight black with zero purple when that was rarely if ever the case before 2010.

Now after that long winded response.. To answer, was it better?

Well MDMA back then somehow was more potent mg/mg, seemed to have a slightly longer duration, and ALOT more energy. On the flip side, the MDMA back then completely wrecked you in the week after compared to the sometimes afterglows we get today. Not sure if I’d trade the clean pure feeling I get after for a bit more potency and speed but each to their own. Also it appears the MDMA back then really burnt people out, E-tards were much more a thing at that time.

I believe the MDMA did change but I also feel tolerance and rose tinted glasses have something to do with it as well.

MDMA is MDMA. In a perfect world yes, but in the world of illicit drugs worrying about purity hurts the bottom line. And now with the market moving from pills to loose product, leaving behind impurities adds more weight and more money." - 




Was mdma actually 'better' in the 90s/2000s? from
      MDMA
_


----------



## Hilopsilo

Sorry for double post but tell me this has been posted before?! http://www.icadtsinternational.com/files/documents/2007_271.pdf



			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237401792_Regioisomers_of_34-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills
		


_"Chemical profiling of ecstasy is an important process in the control of the international trade in these products. 28 ecstasy pills seized by the police in and around the city of Valladolid (Spain) have been analyzed in this current study. All the samples contained 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, although in different proportions. The presence of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine regioisomers was detected in 9 of the 28 samples analyzed. KEY WORDS: Regioisomers, MDMA, Clandestine ecstasy" _

???!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!
*
"Of the 28 samples analyzed, 9 were found to have high impurity levels of compounds with an equal molecular weight to MDMA (regioisomers of the substance) but different structure and thus having a different effect on the organism. These compounds are often due to a total lack of quality control, in both the products used in the synthesis (precursors, solvents and other reactives) and the development of the process itself (insufficient reaction time, etc.)."*

I'm shitting myself, ED or any other site has NEVER reported a sample containing any of this yet these guys detect them in NINE out of 28 random samples?! ED and the lot are surely missing this bullshit


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> _The Leuckart is a dirty process known to produce psychoactive impurities. It was these impurities that altered the effects and gave the 90’s MDMA something special._


That would be *Theory #5*.



Hilopsilo said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237401792_Regioisomers_of_34-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills
> 
> 
> _"3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, popularly known as ecstasy, is one of the *ten regioisomers* 2,3- and 3,4 -methylenedioxyphenethylamines of molecular weight 193 and fragment ions with equivalent mass (m/z: 58 and m/z: 135/136) in the electron impact mass spectrum" _


That paper was from 2007 when MehDMA was not an issue yet.  The synth methods have changed since then, e.g. see vash445's recent post.
Also, there are more than 10 MDMA regioisomers known.
@indigoaura: All regioisomers are isobaries, too....but not vice-versa.



Hilopsilo said:


> "_Of the 28 samples analyzed, 9 were found to have high impurity levels of compounds with an equal molecular weight to MDMA (regioisomers of the substance) but different structure and thus having a different effect on the organism. These compounds are often due to a total lack of quality control, in both the products used in the synthesis (precursors, solvents and other reactants) and the development of the process itself (insufficient reaction time, etc.)._"


Unfortunately they did not identify any of these regioisomers.



Hilopsilo said:


> I'm shitting myself, ED or any other site has NEVER reported a sample containing any of this yet these guys detect them in NINE out of 28 random samples?! ED and the lot are surely missing this bullshit


That's what the *Aalberg* and *Awad* papers are about.  Apparently, these regioisomers are easy to confuse with 3,4-MDMA when using the analytical techniques described in these papers.
That does not mean that these regioisomers are impossible to resolve - it's just that dedicated and dilligent scientists are needed for it ...or different analytical techniques and sample derivatizations.

What we really don't know is what the physiological and psychoactive effects of these regioisomers are.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> That would be *Theory #5*.



Welp, more as-credible-as-info-comes-from-randoms-on-internet to throw in that bin



Glubrahnum said:


> That paper was from 2007 when MehDMA was not an issue yet.  The synth methods have changed since then, e.g. see vash445's recent post.
> Also, there are more than 10 MDMA regioisomers known.
> @indigoaura: All regioisomers are isobaries, too....but not vice-versa.



Regardless of who was doing what when, and I'm still not sure I buy how sure you all are about what synth methods were being used at what times, but thats not a hill im willing to die on lol. Surely there is overlap and uncertainty, all we have to go off of is what people who sound like they know what they're talking about on the internet are saying. I'm not saying its not credible, but that its a somewhat narrow view into the world of the illegal underground production of a very popular drug.

Was it a problem in 2007? I don't know, as you say synth methods change so likely these isobary profiles do too and/or how common they are. The problem could have cropped up around then and just gotten worse til now, or people have finally gotten suspicious of chalking it up to magic loss. Maybe these isobaries are always present and now synth methods create way more of them tipping the scales to a noticeable difference in acute effects?



Glubrahnum said:


> Unfortunately they did not identify any of these regioisomers.



Sadly no, while the paper is good as its easy to understand as a layman, it feels lacking in details



Glubrahnum said:


> That's what the *Aalberg* and *Awad* papers are about.  Apparently, these regioisomers are easy to confuse with 3,4-MDMA when using the analytical techniques described in these papers.
> That does not mean that these regioisomers are impossible to resolve - it's just that dedicated and dilligent scientists are needed for it ...or different analytical techniques and sample derivatizations.
> 
> What we really don't know is what the physiological and psychoactive effects of these regioisomers are.



Those papers are on the subject, but both are purely analytical, this paper actually tells us these compounds ARE present in a hefty chunk (9/28 is a lot if you ask me) of the albeit small sample size. ED has tens of thousands of submissions and nothing on this, regardless of changes in production theyd surely see SOMETHING. I think this confirms our question of whether they are going far enough to detect them at ED; clearly not.

TLDR; it felt like other studies we found confirmed the existence of such compounds in a general sense, but this study gives hard evidence that they can actually be present in mdma samples, we know they're there. I bet the MehDMA just has a high percentage of regioisomer(s) that have crappy effects compared to the real mccoy


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> Sorry for double post but tell me this has been posted before?! http://www.icadtsinternational.com/files/documents/2007_271.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237401792_Regioisomers_of_34-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills
> 
> 
> 
> _"Chemical profiling of ecstasy is an important process in the control of the international trade in these products. 28 ecstasy pills seized by the police in and around the city of Valladolid (Spain) have been analyzed in this current study. All the samples contained 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, although in different proportions. The presence of 3, 4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine regioisomers was detected in 9 of the 28 samples analyzed. KEY WORDS: Regioisomers, MDMA, Clandestine ecstasy" _
> 
> ???!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!
> 
> *"Of the 28 samples analyzed, 9 were found to have high impurity levels of compounds with an equal molecular weight to MDMA (regioisomers of the substance) but different structure and thus having a different effect on the organism. These compounds are often due to a total lack of quality control, in both the products used in the synthesis (precursors, solvents and other reactives) and the development of the process itself (insufficient reaction time, etc.)."*
> 
> I'm shitting myself, ED or any other site has NEVER reported a sample containing any of this yet these guys detect them in NINE out of 28 random samples?! ED and the lot are surely missing this bullshit



Interesting. Im just gonna sit back with the drugsdata findings and see what happens.


----------



## AutoTripper

Glubrahnum said:


> That paper was from 2007 when MehDMA was not an issue yet.


I would dispute that personally I'm pretty sure I encountered MehDMA in 2005. The fact that the study was done back in 2007 explains why there was actually quite a low proportion of these regioisomer impurities because I would have expected it to be much higher currently if this is directly linked to the problem.

Maybe it was not a widely known issue or properly identified and appraised by 2007 but it certainly would have been an arising issue.

All this chemistry stuff has gone over my head but when I look at that little summary of that 2007 study and report I have to say it strongly resonates as being potential relevant.

But I know not unlike you smart chemists, I go by feeling often with a loosely formed but not logicless logic running in my subconscious.

Haha, I think I'll just sit back and enjoy my popcorn shall I?!


----------



## Glubrahnum

Wasn't 2005 the time of the piperazine scourge?

Anyway,  I base my estimates of the evolution of contaminant content on reports *like this*.
As far as synth routes go, I get my info from papers about novel routes like vash445 just quoted at the end of his *last post* and from forensic reports, although I admit that G_Chem and old hive bees have the evolution of synth routes researched better than I.

To be certain whether ED and other testing centers are doing a good job, some of *these compounds* would need to be ordered and presented to them for testing as MDMA. Most of these compounds are legal to buy, but check your local analogue laws before you do.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Not saying any of you have it wrong or anything, I just figure if 1/3 of mdma in 2007 had Regi's due to, as the study says, uncontrollable clandestine methods and precursors, im sure that still holds true with whatever they're doing now. And as they say in the study, its not as if all 9 sample had the same regi, some even had multiple of them, who knows what synth route makes which ones and what factors contribute. Maybe in 2007 those regi profiles happened to be similar to mdma in effects so nobody noticed? Maybe we have new ones now? In greater concentration and less ideal effects? Sooooo many variables. I think that study is on the money

Piperazines were common up until DNMs became a thing from my perspective, so like 2012-ish? I had the misfortune of consuming a piperazine pressed pill in 2011, it was an AWFUL experience


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> Not saying any of you have it wrong or anything, I just figure if 1/3 of mdma in 2007 had Regi's due to, as the study says, uncontrollable clandestine methods and precursors, im sure that still holds true with whatever they're doing now. And as they say in the study, its not as if all 9 sample had the same regi, some even had multiple of them, who knows what synth route makes which ones and what factors contribute. Maybe in 2007 those regi profiles happened to be similar to mdma in effects so nobody noticed? Maybe we have new ones now? In greater concentration and less ideal effects? Sooooo many variables. I think that study is on the money
> 
> Piperazines were common up until DNMs became a thing from my perspective, so like 2012-ish? I had the misfortune of consuming a piperazine pressed pill in 2011, it was an AWFUL experience



Yea i hear you. I understand. In regards to the piperize/methylone mayhem. that was all like 2008-2010. Once people got wise to that, a new challenger appeared and it became less likely to sell/find that bs pipes/methylone .


----------



## Glubrahnum

So, how many of you would be interested in crowdfunding the purchase of of *these compounds* with a cryptocurrency ?
Most of them are legal, and they can be used to test the Test Centers once and for all


----------



## indigoaura

@Hilopsilo Thanks for that link. I will forward it on to the Drugs Data people as well. I have not ever seen it before. It does seem to provide evidence that the regioisomers have ended up in ecstasy, and that it has been documented before.



> That paper was from 2007 when MehDMA was not an issue yet.


 I personally noted the change in my area in 2005-2006. This correlated with a time that a major distributor in the area was busted, and other distributors moved into the area. So, there was a definite change that occurred at that time. So, I think the MehDMA was around earlier in certain regions.


----------



## indigoaura

@Glubrahnum I am not opposed to crowdfunding, if I can somehow do it anonymously.


----------



## indigoaura

I also think it is interesting that the article @Hilopsilo posted presents a new combination theory - that the regioisomers ARE the contaminants. They hide in the product because they share the same mass, but potentially have greater affinity for receptors etc and are active contaminants that alter the experience significantly.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> @Glubrahnum I am not opposed to crowdfunding, if I can somehow do it anonymously.



Use monero.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> I also think it is interesting that the article @Hilopsilo posted presents a new combination theory - that the regioisomers ARE the contaminants. They hide in the product because they share the same mass, but potentially have greater affinity for receptors etc and are active contaminants that alter the experience significantly.



Thats what i read into as well. Good point. I havent been this excited in this thread for some time.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Glubrahnum said:


> So, how many of you would be interested in crowdfunding the purchase of of *these compounds* with a cryptocurrency ?
> Most of them are legal, and they can be used to test the Test Centers once and for all



Sure, I think that combined with that study would basically be case closed. Why would crypto need to be involved? Unless these compounds are readily sold on DNM? if so that adds another layer of weirdness here


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> Sure, I think that combined with that study would basically be case closed. Why would crypto need to be involved? Unless these compounds are readily sold on DNM? if so that adds another layer of weirdness here



Crypto simply keeps the means of money anonymous. Thats all. Privacy is key. It has nothing to do with dnm in this regard. The compounds are not being sourced from there, and they arent illegal according to glub.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Hilopsilo said:


> Why would crypto need to be involved?


Because some crowdfunders value their privacy and would like to stay anonymous. e.g. see below:


indigoaura said:


> I am not opposed to crowdfunding, if I can somehow do it anonymously.





epic11 said:


> Crypto simply keeps the means of money anonymous. Thats all. Privacy is key.




The purchaser/submitter might want to stay anonymous, too.


Hilopsilo said:


> Unless these compounds are readily sold on DNM? if so that adds another layer of weirdness here


Vendors of these RCs take fiat currency, so the purchaser would have to exchange the crypto for fiat, eventually.

Do you have a better idea?


----------



## Glubrahnum

epic11 said:


> ...they arent illegal according to glub.


Some of them. For example in some countries the analogue laws might catch this one:
*PubChem CID 85777948 *

...despite that no one even seems to have any knowledge about its pharmacological or psychoactive activity.


----------



## Glubrahnum

Can anyone find better sources of these?:
*PubChem CID 24264757*
*CAS 68291-92-9*

( click on them to see the prices )


----------



## Hilopsilo

Ah I see what you're saying glub, didn't have the background there, sure I'd chip in ?



vash445 said:


> Xtc data will come back MDMA.
> 
> You need a private lab.. I HAVE 1. WE have cosy NMR, PROTON etc. Polerimeters for entiomers etc. But i need both meh and magic multiple samples



Yeah, so i've been beating myself up about this but I brought my samples with me to the festival that does the testing this summer so I could present them with both sampled and give them my spiel. Didn't get around to it, and when i spoke to them offhand about it they had no idea wtf i was talking about, the people running the thing are volunteer FTIR trainees. We had a lot of leftover drugs that we didn't want to take back with us (99% chance of a police checkpoint or two on the way back, its canada), so we geocached them. I didn't realize I put my samples of the MehDMA and MagicDMA in the geocache... So, won't have access to those until next August unfortunately...

That said, my friend goes through batches like crazy and lets me know when ones stand out, I usually collect a sample from every batch he gets


----------



## indigoaura

Maybe I don't quite get geocaching...but I thought other people could find those things and take the treasure?


----------



## indigoaura

Drugs Data have received all of the recent updates, and they are looking into it.

I am hoping that they will be willing to order these substances to check them, add them to their catalog etc. If that is the case, maybe we can make donations to them to fund this project. If not, then I am all for buying the substances and sending them in and seeing what happens. It would only take a few examples to prove the point. 

@Hilopsilo I just read the full article you posted. It really makes me wonder if it is possible that MehDMA is a mix of various regioisomers/isobaries and MDMA. That would explain the subtle differences people report in their MehDMA experience. Everyone agrees that it lacks the characteristics of MDMA (euphoria, empathy, pro-social behavior, enhanced tactile/auditory sensation), but it seems that some people have more negative side effects than others. Different ratios of MDMA to contaminant would produce a variety of effects, but the full effects of MDMA would be blocked in all scenarios.


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> It really makes me wonder if it is possible that MehDMA is a mix of various regioisomers/isobaries and MDMA. That would explain the subtle differences people report in their MehDMA experience.


It is possible if the testers were watching Nyan Cat instead of doing their jobs well.


----------



## indigoaura

@Glubrahnum - The impression I am getting is that they have to order the GCMS file for the chems they want to test for. So, if they have not added a particular chem to their database, it is not going to show up as a possible result. Am I getting the right impression?


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> Ah I see what you're saying glub, didn't have the background there, sure I'd chip in ?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, so i've been beating myself up about this but I brought my samples with me to the festival that does the testing this summer so I could present them with both sampled and give them my spiel. Didn't get around to it, and when i spoke to them offhand about it they had no idea wtf i was talking about, the people running the thing are volunteer FTIR trainees. We had a lot of leftover drugs that we didn't want to take back with us (99% chance of a police checkpoint or two on the way back, its canada), so we geocached them. I didn't realize I put my samples of the MehDMA and MagicDMA in the geocache... So, won't have access to those until next August unfortunately...
> 
> That said, my friend goes through batches like crazy and lets me know when ones stand out, I usually collect a sample from every batch he gets


I do not trust FTIR or Energy control UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis). To bad you dont have both any more. if you still have meh. I can DEF get a better analysis and that could lead to something.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @Glubrahnum - The impression I am getting is that they have to order the GCMS file for the chems they want to test for. So, if they have not added a particular chem to their database, it is not going to show up as a possible result. Am I getting the right impression?



This is very MUCH correct. Energy control doesnt have isobate for meth. n-isopropylbenzylamine and alike and it fools and says high purity meth but its not


----------



## Glubrahnum

indigoaura said:


> The impression I am getting is that they have to order the GCMS file for the chems they want to test for.



It is more complicated than that. Good analysis techniques employ two stages:
*a*) Separation (e.g.: GC or TLC or HPLC)
*b*) Identification (e.g.: MS, CAD, IR absorbance, UV fluorescence, Stokes/AntiStokes emission).

So in the step *a* the sample is separated into different components and later in step *b* these components are identified one-by-one.
(Note: _the time of elution or distance of separation is/can be used for identification, too....or aid in it_).

Without good separation, you get overlapping identification spectra that are hard to correlate automatically.  They look like this:





Note, that certain detectors used for identification (like the one that made the graph above) can "see" the bonds of intact molecules, while some of them, like e.g. MS can only infer them because by the time molecule gets to the detector they are mostly fragmented and their bonds are broken, so it is an educated  guesswork how these fragments were bound originally.

Also, most of the time the sample is prepared somehow by dissolving it in a solvent and trituration/filtering or reacting with a derivatizing agent or both.  This preparation affects the results of *a* & *b*.

The results from *a* and *b* can be correlated automatically be a computer, when the machine is calibrated well but it still the job of a human to spot poor spectra correlation (erroneus library match), overlapping spectra or poor calibration.

The authors of the paper that Hilopsilo quoted, did just that.  They spotted closely overlapping peaks on their chromatograms.

Other analysts might use different separation techniques, that are not able to resolve closely related regioisomers or identification methods such as Mass Spectrometry which can easily confuse regioisomers when the relative abundances of their fragments are not accounted for diligently ...or just happen to be identical.

It is not a coincidence that we prefer to use HPLC with Raman and IR absorption detectors at work rather than GC/MS ...and when due diligence is required we even try several HPLC columns for separation ...just to be sure.  You'd be surprised, that even with multiple columns sometimes certain components elute at the same time (do not separate well) and only after reacting the sample with derivatizing agents (e.g. PFPA ), a well defined separation occurs.


----------



## Glubrahnum

@ThreePointCircle
What you have done was an analysis by this classic technique on a shoestring budget, because you separated your sample into its different components by TLC and identified the individual components by a reagent ...if  "reagent testing" counts as  identification.

If you have $2k laying around and a desire to go beyond reagents, take a look at *this*.


----------



## Glubrahnum

vash445 said:


> This is very MUCH correct. Energy control doesn't have isobate for meth. n-isopropylbenzylamine and alike and it fools and says high purity meth but its not


I agree if they have monkeys interpreting the results.  Any decent analytical chemist would eventually see the peaks, that just do not make sense ...even if the library match is made with a correlation coefficient in the 0.90s.

...unless they are watching *Nyan Cat* instead of doing their jobs.

P.S.
Of course, if they had their machines calibrated with a forensic sample of that isopropylbenzylanamine, then even a proverbial monkey could interpret the result correctly.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> If you have $2k laying around and a desire to go beyond reagents, take a look at *this*.



Haha, a little past the budget at the moment.  A think a fractional vacuum distillation setup would be next on the shopping list.


----------



## Hilopsilo

https://community.dnstars.vip/t/var...pparently-not-observed-in-other-labs/26979/35 Posted about this on DNstars, the founder seems very open minded about all this. Said they went down this same road with 2/3/4-MMC with Energy Control, which are structural isomers of each other with different effects which further supports our hypothesis about MDMA. They basically just crowdfunded the money for EC to purchase the references, which was cheaper considering it was only a couple references, not like 20+. Would we rather crowdfund to purchase the references, or try to fool their tests with them first to get their damn attention lol. Either way, we've been talking about crowdfunding the samples for a while, DNStars founder said they used a crypto crowdfunding service, lets get that started?

Feel free to chime in that thread


----------



## vash445

Glubrahnum said:


> P.S.
> Of course, if they had their machines calibrated with a forensic sample of that isopropylbenzylanamine, then even a proverbial monkey could interpret the result correctly.



yeah people tried to chip in to get the file for n-iso meth :/


----------



## Kaden_Nite

vash445 said:


> n-iso meth



Not sure if isopropylbenzylamine is as common as a lot of methamphetamine users seem to believe. It's difficult to find any solid information about.

There is a product being sold as 'eria jarensis extract'. It's just synthetic
n,n-dimethylphenethylamine (C10H15N).

Not sure how that would look on MS..


----------



## xlite

Some are not as potent or strong.


----------



## indigoaura

vash445 said:


> yeah people tried to chip in to get the file for n-iso meth :/



What do you mean, @vash445? You say tried (past tense), as if it did not work out. What happened?


----------



## indigoaura

From Drugs Data:



> Your emails are fucking fantastic. Thanks.
> 
> This is crazy interesting to me. I have gotten one of our top analytical chemists interested. I have not brought this up to the lab, since I want to get it summarized fully, with the complete list of standards we need in hand, and ask the lab for their thoughts on how to standardize their procedure (that could involve derivatization) for differentiating between this set of regioisomeric & the generally identio-mass (iso-bari) chemicals if they are present.
> 
> I spoke to our senior analytical chemist consultant yesterday and he's interested in digging into this, but is in the middle of launching a brand new lab space with several new employees, so it could take a couple weeks for him to be able to prioritize this.
> 
> There's no question, at least on my side, this conversation has evolved and become extremely specific: can our lab differentiate the chemicals you've pointed out from MDMA (3,4-methylene-dioxy-meth-amphetamine).
> 
> thanks for all your work on this! Say howdy and thanks to your team!


----------



## psy997

Woohoo! Great job indigo and everyone else ?


----------



## Sqqlut

I wasn't here in the nineties, but I want to add my two cents, even if I'm tired and my english isn't perfect.

Things have changed a lot in 30 years. Clothes trends went by, came back and it's going full circle again. But not only the clothes changed. Apparently the MDMA did too. This thread almost tries to put the old MDMA user from the 90's into some kind of a full-body time capsule and project him in 2019, spoonfeeding him some of today's MDMA and expect a different result. Scientifically speaking, this lacks environment impact, neurotoxicity impact, yet all the 5 theories are focussing on the MDMA.

Let's brainstom on other possible factors. What about another theory saying that we eat differently, or we take different painkillers, we avoid hot/packed environments, we have more control on the actual dosage, we expect more from the drug than in the past. What about something else?

What if I told you the story of Kevin? Kevin used to take MDMA. One day, as he switches to a new MDMA batch, he is greatly disappointed by the quality of the MDMA so he sends it to a lab only to discover it was some 92% MehDMA. Not wanting to waste another month to take another empathogen, he decides to switch to the previous vendor which offers what he thinks is the same good ol' MDMA. He takes it and it actually feels good, way better than the MehDMA. What are the possible reasons this second batch felt like shit? Could it be what's in the MDMA? Could it be the set/setting/environment, etc. We can't really tell. What we can tell is that Kevin thinks he has some valuable piece of information to share on the internet, unlike Tom who maybe took this very same MehDMA and it worked greatly for him, but we will never hear about Tom. Because the whole process of going through a bad MDMA experience and rushing here to report it is actually filtering our sample. Kevin might be a "roll-virgin", and Tom too, or both could be experienced MDMA that it does not make a dent in this filtering process. Hundred of people, or even ten thousands. There are maybe millions of MDMA users, and you can be sure most of them have no concern into sharing their good experiences, but sharing their bad experiences is kind of human, to share it with others, making others avoid doing the same mistakes.

I'm pretty sure the "good old MDMA" did not work for 100% of the users, and not 100% of the time. Those for whom it didn't work for their first times certainly did not pursue their drug adventure, or at least with MDMA, and they are not here 30 years later to talk about how "shitty" the MDMA was back in the days. This is also another filtering process. Someone who doesn't enjoy a drug is less likely to try again the very same drug.

What I'm trying to say here is that, something probably changed. Actually, everything changed. And it's probably that this MehMDA exists, but I'm confident that it's overlooked. The MDMA experience gather both the MDMA and the user, and rulling out half of the team seems kind of wrong. Filtering processes can actually increase the undesirable effect reports ratio. And what about the set/setting? As long as we don't apply a double-blind study with both batches of MDMA that contain yet unknown differences (kind of a stretch this one), then we can't know. And by double-blind, I mean DOUBLE-blind. Results from million-dollar equipments actually can't give us a clue about the psychoactivity of an impurty, it's potency and BBB penetration if it's psychoactive, its neurotoxicity, its range of effects/side-effects and impact on the MDMA's effects...

While you were focussing on the MDMA, I was focussing on the user. Actually, I was focussing on myself first, but what happened next should be interesting enough. I abused the substance and was starting to experience a loss of magic along with extended undesirable side effects from the very same batch. To make it short, I found a paper about NAC to help reverse Methamphetamine induced neurotoxicity in only two weeks (in rats), including in critical brain regions concerned for the MDMA. I literally bought 250g of NAC and took 600mg for a few months, not even waiting a month between rolls (~4 weeks) and taking the same dosage or less than usual, only to gradually see the effects being stronger and stronger to the point it was close to my first time.

Boooo you suck @Sqqlut, this is purely anecdotal!

Yes it is, and I even made a thread about it two years. Oops, now some people who lost the magic or where experiencing unpleasant effects are now buying the $0.05 a day magic formula and reporting back. Today 18 of the 20 reports (after a loss of magic) report positive results from NAC. 90% positive results from my (not big enough) sample size, yet the results are here, and offer an affordable and easy method to extend this sample size. This method can't obtain any objective result the same way MDMA-assisted psychotherapy can't be done in double blind. You know when you are rolling... and when you are not. It's kind of difficult for the doctor to foul the patient, and even more difficult for the patient to foul the scientist by getting bigger pupils on command.

I'm not saying that nothing changed with the MDMA, I'm saying that probably a lot of people reporting differences between MDMA batches might be biased by their bad experiences and were"filter-worthy", biased by this MDMA hyperfocus, biased by MDMA induced neurotoxicity, or the many others random things that could add noise to this mess. It's time to "un-noise" this game, get your rose-tinted glasses out of the way and pursue the speculation game, but think out of the box this time!


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> What do you mean, @vash445? You say tried (past tense), as if it did not work out. What happened?


Noone was willing to chip in. I forgot if it was on blue light, or reddit or Tor where I saw this


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@Glubrahnum should I get a uv filter specific to 254nm? Kinda looks like the cheap filters miss the wavelength


----------



## vash445

​
​Rhodium
_(Chief Bee)_
12-14-03 22:08
No 476826​ 



 *MDP3P*​​
It is *very* likely that all wackers produce MDP3P to _some_ extent, and as the "three methods" in the document you mention are *all* variations of the O2 Wacker in an alcoholic solvent, they are unlikely to differ. Only when you change the solvent, the catalyst or the oxidant you can expect any changes in product selectivity.​


Only when you change the solvent, the catalyst or the oxidant you can expect any changes in product selectivity.So maybe something so stupid as a solvent they are using is effecting regioselectivity.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle said:


> @Glubrahnum should I get a uv filter specific to 254nm? Kinda looks like the cheap filters miss the wavelength


Not necessarily.
You do *not* need a bandpass filter on your UV source. A highpass filter is enough.
A highpass filter passes everything ABOVE a certain frequency (or below a certain wavelength).

Q: So what is that certain frequency (or wavelength)? -A:  It is the highest frequency (lowest wavelength) that your eyes or camera can see.
For example: my eyes can see up to 780THz (385nm) - yours most likely, too ...but I have no idea how high up the spectrum your camera "sees".


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Glubrahnum said:


> You do *not* need a bandpass filter on your UV source. A highpass filter is enough.
> A highpass filter passes everything ABOVE a certain frequency (or below a certain wavelength).



A lot of the cheap filters seem to be ZWB2 (e.g., see graph on this product: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ZWB2-Ult...hash=item2ac82f05e8:m:myQ6x-aOxMX1EyY-Gy6cGXw), but that seems to be missing 254nm.  Only ZWB1 looks good on that graph but they cost a lot more.  A haven't had a good hit on high pass filters yet, but maybe I need to search on a different term.


----------



## vecktor

ThreePointCircle said:


> @Glubrahnum should I get a uv filter specific to 254nm? Kinda looks like the cheap filters miss the wavelength



quick TLC primer here for free. I looked at the photos of the plates and there are a couple of simple hints that will make the whole thing a lot easier. 

*Forget the UV filter thing*, total waste of time, the plates should glow green or maybe blue when hit by UV light shorter than 300nm, 254 nm is a line produced by Mercury discharge and any UVB or UVC lamp lets through the short stuff 254nm is the most common short wave line in lamps. If you have a blacklight rather than short UV then TLC plates will not glow. Blacklights are longer wavelength, 365nm is common (again this is produced by Mercury) and usually they have a filter as part of the glass which stops UVB and shorter wavelength more dangerous light.  Mineral collectors have UV254 lamps.

F254 plates are what most manufacturers make using various inorganic materials added in the silica which glows when illuminated by short wave UV, things that absorb short wavelength UV like things with benzene rings  act like sunscreen preventing the plate near the substance from fluorescing and glowing. Your camera WILL have a UV filter in place and the cut off for that will be around 350nm. It will block everything shorter than that. the photo problem is contrast, the plates are glowing and the spots are glowing less or hopefully not at all but if you have massive smeared spots then the color is not going to be much different. Also photograph the plates in the dark using the glow from the plates. 

Don't worry about the camera, worry about your eyes looking at the UV source. It will give you sunburn on the back of your eyes and cataracts on the front of your eyes. Normal safety glasses block most UV below 300nm anyway, special safety glasses do exist. Nobody uses them instead of ordinary safety glasses. But be careful !!

More importantly get the chromatography right  get nice spots and the rest will be easy


Get your sample onto the plate in a concentrated spot. there is no point trying to run a sample up a plate if it is smeared all over the starting line and has spread out before you run the plate. Do not use water solution to load the plate it will cause the silica to behave badly. If you must use a polar solvent to load the plate use methanol or ethanol but try not to, both are strong solvents and will spread the sample. Ideally you want to load with a weak solvent.

Use a glass capillary to load the plate, draw up the sample solution using capillary action then touch the plate once, then let the solvent dry, then if you want touch it again and so on. 

For the sample you are running get it into the freebase form, dissolve the sample in the minimum amount of water then add ammonia to make it basic, it will go cloudy. then extract with Ethyl Acetate or Dichloromethane or any strong non polar solvent like toluene, hexane and heptane is a weak solvent.  Then use the capillary to load drops of the non polar extract onto the plate. 
Either do dots or a series of dots in a row each being more touches than the one before more sample. If you are really good you can streak a line horizontally across the plate.
now once it is dry use your UV lamp to check you have a nice small dot. if your dots are bigger than 1-2mm turn the plate upside down and draw a new starting line and do it again. If you let the solvent dry you can dot the same place again and again to get a concentrated starting dot.

if you are using UV visualisation then if you don't use solvents that absorb UV, you can then follow the spots without taking the plate out of the chamber. 

Mixtures are almost always better than single solvents. The trick is to have a stronger solvent and a weaker solvent which means you can optimize the mix. hexane is a weak solvent, ethyl acetate is a stronger one, so you can use a mixture of ethyl acetate and hexane,  if a spot is too close to the solvent front, do it again with a new plate with more of the weaker solvent in the mixture. You want the spots to be roughly 1/4 to 3/4  up, with nothing stuck at the start and nothing hitting the top. If the spot is sort of streaking, looking a bit like a comet then the issue is the activity of the silica which is not letting go fo the material, with amines add  a few drops of ammonia or triethylamine to the solvent mix. Acids almost always streak but adding a few drops of formic or acetic acid will reduce it. obviously you can't have both in a single solvent mix.

Good luck 

there are loads of simple TLC guides for undergrads, it is probably worth reading through them for example:


			https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/chemistry/5-301-chemistry-laboratory-techniques-january-iap-2012/labs/MIT5_301IAP12_TLC_Handout.pdf
		



			https://www.chem.wisc.edu/deptfiles/OrgLab/handouts/CHEM%20344%20TLC%20info.pdf
		

there probably are better guides out there, "TLC for Dummies" kind of thing.


----------



## Glubrahnum

ThreePointCircle did most of that.   He had low contrast image because his UV light source emits a little in the visible spectrum and that swamps the fluorescence of the plate. The filter is not mandatory but it will remove the visible light emitted by his light source, which will improve the contrast of the image from his plate.


----------



## vecktor

​​


Glubrahnum said:


> ThreePointCircle did most of that.   He had low contrast image because his UV light source emits a little in the visible spectrum and that swamps the fluorescence of the plate. The filter is not mandatory but it will remove the visible light emitted by his light source, which will improve the contrast of the image from his plate.


the spots are ill defined, and streaked. poor chromatography gives poor image.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I'll try my best to implement all of the above.  I've got quite a few plates so hopefully will improvements my process quick enough


----------



## Glubrahnum

vecktor said:


> the spots are ill defined, and streaked. poor chromatography gives poor image.


Yes, his technique is not perfect but that was his first attempt.

His *photo* of the plate shows a non-fluorescent background that is *not black*. That is caused by visible light reflecting from the background!
If no visible light was emitted from his UV source, then the background would appear black ...and the contrast of his plate would be proportionally higher.
That is besides the quality of sample preparation,  application, ascension duration and his solvent system choice.


----------



## AutoTripper

Sqqlut said:


> I wasn't here in the nineties, but I want to add my two cents, even if I'm tired and my english isn't perfect.
> 
> Things have changed a lot in 30 years. Clothes trends went by, came back and it's going full circle again. But not only the clothes changed. Apparently the MDMA did too. This thread almost tries to put the old MDMA user from the 90's into some kind of a full-body time capsule and project him in 2019, spoonfeeding him some of today's MDMA and expect a different result. Scientifically speaking, this lacks environment impact, neurotoxicity impact, yet all the 5 theories are focussing on the MDMA.
> 
> Let's brainstom on other possible factors. What about another theory saying that we eat differently, or we take different painkillers, we avoid hot/packed environments, we have more control on the actual dosage, we expect more from the drug than in the past. What about something else?
> 
> What if I told you the story of Kevin? Kevin used to take MDMA. One day, as he switches to a new MDMA batch, he is greatly disappointed by the quality of the MDMA so he sends it to a lab only to discover it was some 92% MehDMA. Not wanting to waste another month to take another empathogen, he decides to switch to the previous vendor which offers what he thinks is the same good ol' MDMA. He takes it and it actually feels good, way better than the MehDMA. What are the possible reasons this second batch felt like shit? Could it be what's in the MDMA? Could it be the set/setting/environment, etc. We can't really tell. What we can tell is that Kevin thinks he has some valuable piece of information to share on the internet, unlike Tom who maybe took this very same MehDMA and it worked greatly for him, but we will never hear about Tom. Because the whole process of going through a bad MDMA experience and rushing here to report it is actually filtering our sample. Kevin might be a "roll-virgin", and Tom too, or both could be experienced MDMA that it does not make a dent in this filtering process. Hundred of people, or even ten thousands. There are maybe millions of MDMA users, and you can be sure most of them have no concern into sharing their good experiences, but sharing their bad experiences is kind of human, to share it with others, making others avoid doing the same mistakes.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the "good old MDMA" did not work for 100% of the users, and not 100% of the time. Those for whom it didn't work for their first times certainly did not pursue their drug adventure, or at least with MDMA, and they are not here 30 years later to talk about how "shitty" the MDMA was back in the days. This is also another filtering process. Someone who doesn't enjoy a drug is less likely to try again the very same drug.
> 
> What I'm trying to say here is that, something probably changed. Actually, everything changed. And it's probably that this MehMDA exists, but I'm confident that it's overlooked. The MDMA experience gather both the MDMA and the user, and rulling out half of the team seems kind of wrong. Filtering processes can actually increase the undesirable effect reports ratio. And what about the set/setting? As long as we don't apply a double-blind study with both batches of MDMA that contain yet unknown differences (kind of a stretch this one), then we can't know. And by double-blind, I mean DOUBLE-blind. Results from million-dollar equipments actually can't give us a clue about the psychoactivity of an impurty, it's potency and BBB penetration if it's psychoactive, its neurotoxicity, its range of effects/side-effects and impact on the MDMA's effects...
> 
> While you were focussing on the MDMA, I was focussing on the user. Actually, I was focussing on myself first, but what happened next should be interesting enough. I abused the substance and was starting to experience a loss of magic along with extended undesirable side effects from the very same batch. To make it short, I found a paper about NAC to help reverse Methamphetamine induced neurotoxicity in only two weeks (in rats), including in critical brain regions concerned for the MDMA. I literally bought 250g of NAC and took 600mg for a few months, not even waiting a month between rolls (~4 weeks) and taking the same dosage or less than usual, only to gradually see the effects being stronger and stronger to the point it was close to my first time.
> 
> Boooo you suck @Sqqlut, this is purely anecdotal!
> 
> Yes it is, and I even made a thread about it two years. Oops, now some people who lost the magic or where experiencing unpleasant effects are now buying the $0.05 a day magic formula and reporting back. Today 18 of the 20 reports (after a loss of magic) report positive results from NAC. 90% positive results from my (not big enough) sample size, yet the results are here, and offer an affordable and easy method to extend this sample size. This method can't obtain any objective result the same way MDMA-assisted psychotherapy can't be done in double blind. You know when you are rolling... and when you are not. It's kind of difficult for the doctor to foul the patient, and even more difficult for the patient to foul the scientist by getting bigger pupils on command.
> 
> I'm not saying that nothing changed with the MDMA, I'm saying that probably a lot of people reporting differences between MDMA batches might be biased by their bad experiences and were"filter-worthy", biased by this MDMA hyperfocus, biased by MDMA induced neurotoxicity, or the many others random things that could add noise to this mess. It's time to "un-noise" this game, get your rose-tinted glasses out of the way and pursue the speculation game, but think out of the box this time!


Hey there, welcome to the forum and thanks for making the effort to share your thoughts and feelings and experiences on the subject.

I'm not about to try and critique what you have said I only wanted to make one point which springs to mind as I read through your post- I don't believe any where we are really seeing or hearing the same type of discussions about for example LSD, Cannabis, and probably a tonne of similarly popular long known and used psychoactive substances not excluding alcohol and nicotine and God knows what everything and anything.

That obvious and very basic thought just really struck me right now as I read your post. Personally I don't think I can go along with your logic just going by my own generally fairly powerful intuition and experience of substances and psychedelic and empathogenic experiences.

I do personally firmly believe that in this case the problem is is very much today with the actual product more than any other single or combined factors.

Not to say that there have not been huge changes in in the world and society and individuals and humanity collectively consciousness wise in an evolutionary sense.

But I dpnt accept this as explaining why MDMA has managed to ever develop such a reputation and beg such questions to be asked.
If things were less to do with the product and more to do with all of the other variables, like say for argument the MDMA was identicallly good and downright appreciable and spectacular as nobody disputes it once was for so many....

I just cannot see this spotlight and inquiry ever starting up with any sort of actual suspicion about the product itself. I mean, Im sure there would be a greater focus on and better awareness of all the other variables at play. And very valid and useful that would be however the huge distraction is this big elephant of the product itself so strongly suspected by so many just too many for my mind.

People were taking MDMA from the 80s until I stopped in 2005 and I certainly never heard any such discussions and I knew people who had been taking it for well I better a decade really living and breathing the culture.

And why I ask myself are we not having this discussion about LSD? I mean it's pretty much considered to hold identical potential for Magic and transcendental otherworldly transformative experience.  

I'm not trying to challenge or rebut you here, simply expressing the basic thoughts which struck my mind just now on this.

@Sqqlut really warm welcome again bro I look forward to reading more contributions from you.


----------



## psy997

If anyone has the post where someone indexed relevant past posts by topic, could you please share it? I just spent forever looking for it and couldn't find it. I looked from June 18, 2018 (pg 51) to June 24, 2019 (pg 97) and also August 15, 2019 (pg 112) to September 23, 2019 (pg 130). I could have sworn it was in the past year, but at least six months back now?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

psy997 said:


> If anyone has the post where someone indexed relevant past posts by topic, could you please share it? I just spent forever looking for it and couldn't find it. I looked from June 18, 2018 (pg 51) to June 24, 2019 (pg 97) and also August 15, 2019 (pg 112) to September 23, 2019 (pg 130). I could have sworn it was in the past year, but at least six months back now?


https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14596012


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@Glubrahnum @vecktor I'm just coming up with my procedure.  I'm trying to be as detailed as possible because I lack the experience and don't want to do anything stupid.  I hope you can check with procedure.  Starting with the sample prep, prior to loading the plate:

1    Dissolve ‘MDMA’ in distilled water (just enough)
2    Add sodium hydroxide to have freebase in solution, ??? mg per mg of MDMA
3    Mix with DCM, ??? ml per mg of MDMA
4    Separate with sep funnel
5    Will have ‘MDMA’ freebase dissolved in DCM
6    This MDMA/DCM solution is applied as a spot to plate with a glass capillary

I've put sodium hydroxide instead of ammonia because that's what I've got.  Is that ok?  (side note, that stuff is nasty!)

Also, for this bit, I'm unsure how sodium hydroxide and DCM I should use.  I get that the procedure is a sub part of the A/B extraction, but I'm dealing with different quantities as its just a sample.


----------



## heatlessbbq

Gotta love this thread.


----------



## psy997

ThreePointCircle said:


> https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14596012



THANK YOU, TPC. I couldn't remember who it was that posted it, either  I spent a good hour looking, I could have sworn you made that post earlier than late July of this year


----------



## vecktor

Getting the chromatography right is the far more important thing. if that is a standard 50mm x 100mm mini plate then the sample dot is 10mm across! so already the sample is 40 to 50x more dilute on the plate than it should be. Absorbance is proportional to concentration so the spots are going to be weak.

The plate has stuff too far up the plate, and smearing and tailing the upper line the lower spot is also tailing and the origin spot is streaking into the lower spot, this tells me that there is a solubility issue of the sample. loading a salt is not the way to do this because the salt will be slow to dissolve in any non polar solvent. loading a freebase extract and using a weaker solvent mix will give much much better results. MEK can be made weaker by adding heptane or hexane but it is better to use a weaker solvent.

it is also worth remembering that MDMA itself is fluorescent but not in the visible spectrum humans are sensitive to, absorbing at 280nm approx and emitting at 320nm the camera probably can only just see it.



ThreePointCircle said:


> @Glubrahnum @vecktor I'm just coming up with my procedure.  I'm trying to be as detailed as possible because I lack the experience and don't want to do anything stupid.  I hope you can check with procedure.  Starting with the sample prep, prior to loading the plate:
> 
> 1    Dissolve ‘MDMA’ in distilled water (just enough)
> 2    Add sodium hydroxide to have freebase in solution, ??? mg per mg of MDMA
> 3    Mix with DCM, ??? ml per mg of MDMA
> 4    Separate with sep funnel
> 5    Will have ‘MDMA’ freebase dissolved in DCM
> 6    This MDMA/DCM solution is applied as a spot to plate with a glass capillary
> 
> I've put sodium hydroxide instead of ammonia because that's what I've got.  Is that ok?  (side note, that stuff is nasty!)
> 
> Also, for this bit, I'm unsure how sodium hydroxide and DCM I should use.  I get that the procedure is a sub part of the A/B extraction, but I'm dealing with different quantities as its just a sample.


Because of the small quantities don't use a sep funnel keep it small old school microscale chemistry.
Do it in a small vial or test tube, a 4ml sample vial with a screw cap is ideal, take 100mg of the substance, add enough water 2ml is more than enough shake to dissolve. if it doesn't all dissolve then decant the liquid from the solids, or suck the liquid up into the pipette into a new vial, Now you have clear solution then add concentrated sodium hydroxide 20%  solution dropwise  with swirling until the pH is >8 the or it goes cloudy. Then allow it to cool to room temperature before adding DCM,  then add 1ml DCM shake then allow the layers to separate do it quickly if you use DCM as it is reactive. Use a pasteur pipette or syringe with needle to transfer the lower DCM layer to a new vial and cap the vial, if you use toluene or diethyl ether then the organic layer will be on the top and easier to transfer.
Then transfer the sample using a fine capillary to the plate. if you don't have a capillary small enough then heat the body of an ordinary glass pasteur pipette in a flame until it begins to melt and pull the ends apart, this will give a perfect fine capillary tube, snap it into 3-4 inch lengths and you are done.
hope you get some decent results.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Thanks @vecktor, I've got xylene.  Is that ok to use instead of DCM?  I believe it would also be the top layer like toluene?

Oh, and the plates are 25 x 75mm


----------



## epic11

<-- clearing throat.



Real mdma is out there and exists, im back from one hell of a weekend. Keep up the good fight. I had real mdma. It was wonderful.


----------



## heatlessbbq

MDMA was legal before 1985?


----------



## indigoaura

Quick question regarding smell.

I have a new sample. It tests as MDXX with Marquis, Mecke, Simons, and Froehde. I do not currently have a Mandelin test, but I am ordering one.

Nothing remarkable about the Simons, Mecke, Froehde response. However, the Marquis response was distinctly purple first. Very purple before it went back. Plenty of time to see the purple before it changed to black. The end result was dark black.

The appearance of this sample is like a very, very fine sand. Wish I had a microscope. It is fluffy. I have seen a lot of MDA and MDMA powder/crystal, but I have never seen anything quite like this. Delicate would be a good word to describe it. Remember that sand that was around in the 90s that all stuck together and you could shape it into things? It kind of reminds me of that. It is basically white, with a minimal light yellow tint.

Now, the smell. It really smells. I smelled it before I opened the baggie. It was like getting punched in the face by the 00s. LOL. But, I have been trying to place whether it is exactly the same smell, or a bit different. This really smells like root beer. I remember someone else mentioning a root beer smell that was different than the standard sass smell. I have not smelled a strong smelling product since 2005, so, my memory is a bit rusty. I could imagine how someone might add sarsaparilla extract or something to their product to create a smell like this. Any comments from people who have smelled high quality, sassy MDMA recently?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Quick question regarding smell.
> 
> I have a new sample. It tests as MDXX with Marquis, Mecke, Simons, and Froehde. I do not currently have a Mandelin test, but I am ordering one.
> 
> Nothing remarkable about the Simons, Mecke, Froehde response. However, the Marquis response was distinctly purple first. Very purple before it went back. Plenty of time to see the purple before it changed to black. The end result was dark black.
> 
> The appearance of this sample is like a very, very fine sand. Wish I had a microscope. It is fluffy. I have seen a lot of MDA and MDMA powder/crystal, but I have never seen anything quite like this. Delicate would be a good word to describe it. Remember that sand that was around in the 90s that all stuck together and you could shape it into things? It kind of reminds me of that. It is basically white, with a minimal light yellow tint.
> 
> Now, the smell. It really smells. I smelled it before I opened the baggie. It was like getting punched in the face by the 00s. LOL. But, I have been trying to place whether it is exactly the same smell, or a bit different. This really smells like root beer. I remember someone else mentioning a root beer smell that was different than the standard sass smell. I have not smelled a strong smelling product since 2005, so, my memory is a bit rusty. I could imagine how someone might add sarsaparilla extract or something to their product to create a smell like this. Any comments from people who have smelled high quality, sassy MDMA recently?


I have seen similar product like this last year a high quality off/white fluffy powder. This usually indicates it was made on a small scale by somebody with chemistry experince and proper glassware. If it was anything like the stuff i tried of it. It should be very very nice and amazing.


----------



## Hilopsilo

epic11 said:


> <-- clearing throat.
> 
> 
> 
> Real mdma is out there and exists, im back from one hell of a weekend. Keep up the good fight. I had real mdma. It was wonderful.



Its a good feelin! I'll never forget when my friend just from the look on my face goes "BITCH I TOLD YOU SO!" after years of me pushing back against his stance that "some shit is way danker im telling you"

When was the last time you had the crumby stuff before this?



indigoaura said:


> Quick question regarding smell.
> 
> I have a new sample. It tests as MDXX with Marquis, Mecke, Simons, and Froehde. I do not currently have a Mandelin test, but I am ordering one.
> 
> Nothing remarkable about the Simons, Mecke, Froehde response. However, the Marquis response was distinctly purple first. Very purple before it went back. Plenty of time to see the purple before it changed to black. The end result was dark black.
> 
> The appearance of this sample is like a very, very fine sand. Wish I had a microscope. It is fluffy. I have seen a lot of MDA and MDMA powder/crystal, but I have never seen anything quite like this. Delicate would be a good word to describe it. Remember that sand that was around in the 90s that all stuck together and you could shape it into things? It kind of reminds me of that. It is basically white, with a minimal light yellow tint.
> 
> Now, the smell. It really smells. I smelled it before I opened the baggie. It was like getting punched in the face by the 00s. LOL. But, I have been trying to place whether it is exactly the same smell, or a bit different. This really smells like root beer. I remember someone else mentioning a root beer smell that was different than the standard sass smell. I have not smelled a strong smelling product since 2005, so, my memory is a bit rusty. I could imagine how someone might add sarsaparilla extract or something to their product to create a smell like this. Any comments from people who have smelled high quality, sassy MDMA recently?



basically white, with a minimal light yellow tint, so like tan or ? your description sort of sounds like the dutch stuff I've seen and stuff I had in the early-mid 2010's when markets became a thing

After the crappy stuff that had the incredibly sassy smell I've personally thrown that out as an indicator of anything other than, yes it is MDMA, but of what quality? it tells us nothing other than whats realistically an impurity I think the smell thing was more useful when MDMA wasn't so plentiful and people were using small cuts to fool tests, or these days if you have not even reagents to go off of.

different batches def smell different, but i don't smell enough mdma regularly to keep any sort of smell profiles in my head lol, its more like a "yep thats a molly", i swear some are saltier smelling, more on the stinky side? Also a lot of MDMA smelled almost like certain shampoos, sassy in a good way

For the reagent test results, if anyone have multiple samples, could probably do some decently-controlled experiments, like do 10 reagent tests of each sample and see if the difference in reaction are consistent over multiple trials. I imagine reactions are influenced by just a tiny different in reagent amount used and amount of product tested.



TripSitterNZ said:


> I have seen similar product like this last year a high quality off/white fluffy powder. This usually indicates it was made on a small scale by somebody with chemistry experince and proper glassware. If it was anything like the stuff i tried of it. It should be very very nice and amazing.



Did yours have any odor?

The stuff I had in that was really, really good in august was again, white and scentless, slightly cloudy in large chunks but for the most part transparent, looking into it afterwards I was able to confirm it was indeed small scale. Consistent effects and physical profile as the magic stuff from a year previous, no idea if they came from the same place


----------



## TripSitterNZ

I didn't smell it so i dont know. But i other magic mdma i have done was scentless and more trash crystals i have done but still retains some good qualities so not absolutely meh had a more licorice smell and a yellowish colour. My presses i have done never had a noticeable smell. I had always stored my stash with weed so all my drugs just smelt like weed usually.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> Quick question regarding smell.
> 
> I have a new sample. It tests as MDXX with Marquis, Mecke, Simons, and Froehde. I do not currently have a Mandelin test, but I am ordering one.
> 
> Nothing remarkable about the Simons, Mecke, Froehde response. However, the Marquis response was distinctly purple first. Very purple before it went back. Plenty of time to see the purple before it changed to black. The end result was dark black.
> 
> The appearance of this sample is like a very, very fine sand. Wish I had a microscope. It is fluffy. I have seen a lot of MDA and MDMA powder/crystal, but I have never seen anything quite like this. Delicate would be a good word to describe it. Remember that sand that was around in the 90s that all stuck together and you could shape it into things? It kind of reminds me of that. It is basically white, with a minimal light yellow tint.
> 
> Now, the smell. It really smells. I smelled it before I opened the baggie. It was like getting punched in the face by the 00s. LOL. But, I have been trying to place whether it is exactly the same smell, or a bit different. This really smells like root beer. I remember someone else mentioning a root beer smell that was different than the standard sass smell. I have not smelled a strong smelling product since 2005, so, my memory is a bit rusty. I could imagine how someone might add sarsaparilla extract or something to their product to create a smell like this. Any comments from people who have smelled high quality, sassy MDMA recently?



OOOOOOOO this sounds heavenly. Good mdma in my experience generally has a "smack you in the face" smell of black licorice/root. Root beer is another term ive heard, and i get why one may call it that. You are probably holding something decent. Try the mandelin theory asap. I will say this though, the last md i took only had a faint smell of licorice, and i wasnt impressed by its smell at all, and had low hopes. Still smacked me, still felt good. Nice roll.


----------



## epic11

Hilopsilo said:


> Its a good feelin! I'll never forget when my friend just from the look on my face goes "BITCH I TOLD YOU SO!" after years of me pushing back against his stance that "some shit is way danker im telling you"
> 
> When was the last time you had the crumby stuff before this?




Bout 4 months prior, but its not a good/accurate test as i took 125 of some brown mdma that seemed pretty damn good, and then 30 more of what i think is for sure "mehdma" which then kicked in a standard "meh dma" roll. Hard to say if that 30 ruined the brown or not. Just not a good enough test to really say from an experience stand point.


----------



## indigoaura

@epic11 The mandelin test is on the way. Once I have it, I will compare all the samples I have.

This product is a product that has not yet gone through an acetone wash. I was told that the washed/re-crystalized version of the same product has no smell. Hoping to see/compare both. 

I will report on the mandelin reactions for all my samples.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> @epic11 The mandelin test is on the way. Once I have it, I will compare all the samples I have.
> 
> This product is a product that has not yet gone through an acetone wash. I was told that the washed/re-crystalized version of the same product has no smell. Hoping to see/compare both.
> 
> I will report on the mandelin reactions for all my samples.


Thanks! Yea my mandelin did a flash of green before changing. It was super quick, but it smoked the whole time. That was the recent batch i took and boy it was good.


----------



## epic11

trickortreat19 <-- use this code at checkout from dancesafe for 15% off! Good timing. Just wanted to drop the code here for the "what is wrong" crew.


----------



## scatterday

Great to see this thread is still coming along well,

Has there been a general consensus on the thread topic and whether or not something has changed.

Last time I was active in this thread there was a discussion regarding the different isomers of mdma and how they can shift how the experience feels. A few theories were in discussion and some others were that people have simply lost the magic because mdma is just mdma at the end of the day and another interesting one was that the precursors have changed.

I'm personally in favour of the isomer ratios and the precursors used in the synthesis masking the real magic.

MDMA is no longer being mass produced with safrole since the treaty ban around a decade ago.

Would be interested to see where everyone's current thoughts are because I tried some mdma recently after not taking any for a few years and it was almost similar to what I was getting in the early 2000's. Definitely a lot better than what was circulating 2012-2015.


----------



## OrbitalCombustion

They have strategically eliminated the best supplies for manufacturing most drugs and consequently they have all suffered in quality. Namely MDMA and Meth.


----------



## scatterday

OrbitalCombustion said:


> They have strategically eliminated the best supplies for manufacturing most drugs and consequently they have all suffered in quality. Namely MDMA and Meth.



So still much of the same discussion then by the sound of it.

There was a reason why I hadn't bothered in years to roll.

Another thing I should probably bring to attention is years ago the after effects/hangover effects of an mdma experience felt completely different.

Now when I'm scattered it's not the same feeling as I used to remember.


----------



## OrbitalCombustion

scatterday said:


> So still much of the same discussion then by the sound of it.
> 
> There was a reason why I hadn't bothered in years to roll.
> 
> Another thing I should probably bring to attention is years ago the after effects/hangover effects of an mdma experience felt completely different.
> 
> Now when I'm scattered it's not the same feeling as I used to remember.


I agree, I recall a life changing aura the next day that was amplified greatly by cannabis, truly irreplaceable. These kids dont know true Shulgin MDMA, sassafras.


----------



## scatterday

OrbitalCombustion said:


> I agree, I recall a life changing aura the next day that was amplified greatly by cannabis, truly irreplaceable. These kids dont know true Shulgin MDMA, sassafras.



This speaks to me deeply.

The only way I cam describe mdma these days is mongy and if I had to rate the mdma I remember years ago on a scale from 1-10 in terms of physiological and psycological effects it'd be a 10/10.

These days I'd give the mdma a 4-5 at most. The hangover just makes me never want to return again.

Even smoking cannabis on oldschool mdma felt different. It would always heighten the experience but now it just turns me into a forgetful etard that can't remember what I was talking about a few words into a conversation.

No blissful feelings like I used to get. I miss the way oldschool mdma used to make me feel.

Euphoric, Empathetic, Horny.. I could talk about it all day but I'll just disappoint myself.

If there's 1 thing I wish about drugs it's that mdma never changed.


----------



## OrbitalCombustion

scatterday said:


> This speaks to me deeply.
> 
> The only way I cam describe mdma these days is mongy and if I had to rate the mdma I remember years ago on a scale from 1-10 in terms of physiological and psycological effects it'd be a 10/10.
> 
> These days I'd give the mdma a 4-5 at most. The hangover just makes me never want to return again.
> 
> Even smoking cannabis on oldschool mdma felt different. It would always heighten the experience but now it just turns me into a forgetful etard that can't remember what I was talking about a few words into a conversation.
> 
> No blissful feelings like I used to get. I miss the way oldschool mdma used to make me feel.
> 
> Euphoric, Empathetic, Horny.. I could talk about it all day but I'll just disappoint myself.
> 
> If there's 1 thing I wish about drugs it's that mdma never changed.


It is sad but I feel lucky to have had the gripping experiences I did with many amazing souls.... up all night in each others mind and body, reaching for the stars in pure ecstasy, never wanting to come down. The Blue Dolphins, Pink Hearts, the Dolce and Gabanas while stuck in a pool. So many great memories. At least we had that, you know?


----------



## wenluojia

Here is an answer from someone in the drug testing world, who I posed the main question of this thread to, and who has overseen thousands of tests and spoken to thousands of MDMA users:

_I can't give a definite answer regarding "good and bad" MDMA. I assume that it is not depending on substance in most cases, but more on set and setting. We think that the MDMA available today is always racemic and that the less and the more potent isomer don't really appear on the black market. Would that be the case, I think we would hear now and then that some pills or crystals would be stronger or less strong, or at least be different than "normal" (similar to Ketamine or Amphetamine, where we have such questions now and then). Regarding MDMA specifically, users usually now quite precisely know the effects of 100mg. Should there really be different kinds of MDMA going around (or different isomers), I think we'd heard that from the users at least now and then. I have been working in the field for many years, and this has never been a topic. MDMA-related substances like MDA, MDEA etc. do appear now and then, but we always spot them as such._


----------



## heatlessbbq

Thanks for answering back, guys.


----------



## heatlessbbq

I feel so appart of the community.


----------



## epic11

scatterday said:


> Great to see this thread is still coming along well,
> 
> Has there been a general consensus on the thread topic and whether or not something has changed.
> 
> Last time I was active in this thread there was a discussion regarding the different isomers of mdma and how they can shift how the experience feels. A few theories were in discussion and some others were that people have simply lost the magic because mdma is just mdma at the end of the day and another interesting one was that the precursors have changed.
> 
> I'm personally in favour of the isomer ratios and the precursors used in the synthesis masking the real magic.
> 
> MDMA is no longer being mass produced with safrole since the treaty ban around a decade ago.
> 
> Would be interested to see where everyone's current thoughts are because I tried some mdma recently after not taking any for a few years and it was almost similar to what I was getting in the early 2000's. Definitely a lot better than what was circulating 2012-2015.




If you simply read back the last 20 pages or so, you will find your answer. There has been a lot of REAL movement in here lately. Please take a note.


----------



## scatterday

Began at page 120 and I have some extremely interesting topics to add to the thread, It's going to be a large multi quote message so I apologise in advance. Running pillreports over the years has allowed me to observe the decline of mdma/ecstasy and it's psychoactive effect qualities we all love and remember.

My next message will be samples tested on edata of ecstasy test results and pillreports user reports of pills that were circulating that I recall very well that were most definitely this magic mdma. I could never forget them.

Some observations I have made locally here in Australia coincide with the worlds (Or at least most definitely Australia's mdma/ecstasy drought) perfectly with the safrole treaty that was signed around the year 2008 and prohibited the production, exportation and importation.

I still am strongly in favour of the idea of alternate synthesis routes being used which is why we see and have access to an abundance of this new mdma worldwide. A drug that was almost non existent that suddenly floods the market is an obvious sign that precursors and the synthesis has been altered. This should be the number one focus and process of elimination to start from.

*How was mdma synthesised prior to the 2008 safrole treaty ban?
What precursors are being used currently?
What precursors were being used before?
Isomer ratios?
Byproducts remaining in the synthesis that may or may not be psychoactive at minuscule doses or non psychoactive substances that someway or another played a part in how mdma binds to serotonin transporters and other neurotransmitters?*

As safrole oil is now almost impossible to obtain and highly monitored chemists have found other routes to synthesise mdma that is not only easier, The yields are higher, More time efficient but there's also less risk of authorities monitoring precursors that are being trafficked.

It was stated in here earlier there are differences in the isotopes of mdma when derived from safrole and if there are minor differences like that you can only suspect there are minuscule amounts of psychoactive or non psychoactive byproducts left over in the synthesis which may play a part in the magic we all remember.

Until somebody can confirm they have both safrole derived mdma and non safrole derived mdma then compare them to one another by consuming them this theory of safrole can't be discredited or eliminated.

Of course the synthesis routes are going to play a part in the desirable psychoactive effects we want to return.



Glubrahnum said:


> Let's make something clear first.  The small difference in the isotopic content of MDMA, or its precursors, will not make that psychoactive difference.  The difference can be caused by some potent microcontaminant *related to* the petrochemical precursor or something specific to the synth method, which involves that type of precursor, but not the isotopic variation in the precursor itself.
> 
> Theoretically, the racemic 3,4-MDMA·• HCl made from a plant-based precursor should be chemically identical to the racemic 3,4-MDMA·• HCl made form a petro-precursor. Theoretically...



In another post I see that there was discussion regarding psychoactive impurities/byproducts that remain in the synthesis of the final product that can alter the experience, Why would it be so far fetched to believe that the isotopic variation could be the same causing a difference in psychoactive effects?

Have you experimented with safrole derived mdma first hand and non safrole derived mdma?

We're not talking about a huge difference, Use a DMT breakthrough as an example. The mdma that currently is in circulation being mass produced by the Dutch feels like a DMT trip without the breakthrough. There's still entactogenic effects. Though the mdma we all remember and discuss openly here is like breaking through. You know it's a breakthrough experience once you've consumed it and post experience.

Everything feels different about it but when looking at it from a honest point of view there's not that much of a difference but you can most definitely differentiate the two.

Oldschool mdma= DMT breakthrough (Profound, Beautiful, Blissful and memorable)
Dutch mdma= Sub breakthrough dose and the effects are just toned down significantly



Glubrahnum said:


> An experiment on virgin users or long-time abstinents would yield data, that could not be dismisses off-hand on the basis of tolerance buildup.
> 
> You'd have to sit in on this.  If you do, please limit the dose to 1.5mg/kg of body weight on an empty stomach and dissolve it in orange juce for consumption (to eliminate the crystalline polymorph variance).  Note the come up time and duration and severity of comedown.
> 
> Please pay attention to pupils (mydriasis), jaw (trismus) and heart rate (pulse) ...besides the psychoactive effects, of course.
> 
> Don't let them overheat or drink huge amounts of pure water...but I guess, you already know that.



I hadn't consumed mdma in years until recently, I wanted to hug, kiss, touch caress everyone around me but I know it's still not the oldschool magic mdma. The dose I took was still absurd and my scatterday still felt different than what I remember. I experienced elevated heart rate, Mydrasis, Bruxism and elevated blood pressure.

I had a minor afterglow but the hangover effects felt very different than what I remember still.



Glubrahnum said:


> When exactly has the crystal MehMDMA started to appear?



2008 globally, Which coincides perfectly with the safrole treaty that was signed and the influx of piperazine flooded all the major markets in the world.



me.and.emma said:


> personally I have felt no difference between being not on, and being on various forms of hormon BC and using mdma.
> 
> But then again every woman's body is different how it reacts on BC. I mean some would complain about mood swings, that I am sure involves some serotonin.
> 
> Is it a possibility for you to switch to non-hormonal BC and see if it effects your rolls?
> 
> When my mom when into the change they offered her a SSRI or estrogen replacement. It definitely points to the fact that estrogen affects serotonin in some or other ways.
> 
> Women tend to need less of mdma as well I have noticed. Could this be related that we have estrogen and men not?
> 
> It's certainly very interesting subject, I will want to learn more about it and please if you have info could you share this via private msg with me?



A very interesting statement that has some merit to it, When I consumed the mdma recently after a 2 year hiatus I was not long before injecting testosterone for bodybuilding purposes, My diet was clean (No refined sugars or Carbs) but getting back to the point supra-physiological doses of testosterone and below aromatise into estrogen for men hence the need for an aromatase inhibitor.

When my estrogen was high and low I noticed serotogenic effects on both ends of the spectrum. Both low and high affected my mood in a negative way.

So estrogen is related to serotonin and I strongly believe this. Expanding on that subject I believe my estrogen was high during my roll and it affected it somehow. Not extremely high but just outside of the normal range.



oldskoolbee said:


> old hive bee here, some bluelight user pointed me to this thread. Won't be around much but here my input that you might appreciate and therefore a start to work on.
> 
> It's called cooking remember? different cooking recipes and procedures results in different outcomes.
> 
> you can cook a nice chunk of meat in the microwave and then sear it with a blow torch, appearance and smell will be awesome, but taste and texture (the pleasure) won't be anywhere near as a proper, slow, oven cooked roast.
> same goes for chemicals, certain routes just don't produce what's expected or it is of inferior quality.
> 
> Leuckart: high quality "MAGIC" mdma plus side products as mda, stimulating, best for clubbing, work intense/time consuming synth, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience
> 
> AL/Hg and NaBH4 reduction: best for cleanest "MAGIC" MDMA, milder than Leuckar but more intimacy and sensuality, psychedelic in it's way, work intense/time consuming, specially NaBH4, medium high yielding depending on chemist experience
> 
> Pt/Pd hydrogenation: worst product of all, this is your mehMDMA. Very little labour involved, high yielding, once the reaction is set it's just a matter of waiting for completion. Add this to the use of higher mass producing acids as tartaric or citric for the salting and here you have your 300 mg tablets that give the crappy, boring experience that is so common today.
> 
> Also: PMK synth has its weak points. In the Hive times people were experimenting with alternate routes to produce pmk from safrole, O2/Wacker was one of them, quickly abandoned because the resulting ketone was inferior and the amine derived from it was weaker and missing what makes mdma special.
> So chinese PMK glicidate might be also partially responsible for the missing effects of today's crappy mdma.
> 
> So just to clear (or confuse) a bit further: magic and meh are actually the same substance from a formula point of view, that's why no test can detect or differentiate the one from the other.
> Why the two produce so different effects? no idea, my experience in pharmacokinetics is very limited.



I feel like this is the answer, The answer has been in front of our face the whole time. The difficulty now is trying to prove this statement is correct. How can one obtain mdma derived from multiple synthesis routes to experiment with so see if there are any psychoactive differences (Extremely likely)



TripSitterNZ said:


> @epic11
> 
> Are any of those batches meh? I know some people avoid mdma that just goes straight to black.
> 
> Reports from the 90s indicated and early 2000s indicate good product should go to a purple then to black.
> 
> Your right batch looks like it might be the type of mda/mdma. But going straight to black is common amongst people saying those batches are meh. In 2009 i tested some mdma and remeber it going through a colour change to purple darker purple then to black



I do have some mdma I believe to be good, Definitely not the magic oldschool mdma we all remember but I'd be intrigued to see how it would stand up on a reagent test. As far as I'm aware it came from a small time chemist and this batch wasn't mass produced.

It's still lacking quite a bit of magic but it's been the best I've tried in at least 10 years by a long shot.

I'm going to organise another test kit then report back with my findings.



G_Chem said:


> @Hilopsilo - My conclusions come from my research not what MDMA I’ve taken.. Mostly taken from the Hive, as this conversation is old as time.  As the other old school bee basically confirmed what I’ve BEEN saying... I’ve described those effects before.
> 
> Even since the time of the Hive certain synthesis routes provided a reliable product everyone loved, others were lackluster.  For example, as the other guy said ketone made from O2 Wacker often aminates to a weaker product than that made by Benzoquinone/PdCl2.  This has been reported many times before.  I suggest you do yourself some research and you’ll likely come to the same conclusions...
> 
> And believe it or not there may be some people in this conversation that have tried their hand at MDMA synthesis once or twice, not me of course but I’m sure some people in the distant past.
> 
> Also if we are to discount others festival observations then let’s throw yours out too.
> 
> -GC



Once again another opinion that solidifies the statement made regarding different synthesis routes. Something I'm still strongly in favour of.


----------



## scatterday

Pillreports is probably the most powerful tool to help us identify what these oldschool pills contained, There's thousands upon thousands of pictures of users describing their test results and experiences. Here is the reports from the beginning of time in the Australian Database

If somebody has enough time on their hands I'd love for them to sift through some of the reports to see if they can come up with any new information but my previous response is what I firmly believe at this point in time. Below are pills I know and remember consuming. All of the ones below are the magic mdma.

https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=27970
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=13446
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=12863
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=12959
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=12772
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=12696
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=15681 
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=15631
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=10851
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=15386
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=14714
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=13891
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=15445
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=7040
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=13418
https://pillreports.net/index.php?page=display_pill&id=11389


----------



## TripSitterNZ

just finished off the last of my mda/mdma crystal mix was very loving with old friends comedown is very harsh though. Had been two months since my last roll this time i think the crystal was even better than the last few times i had done it maybe due to taking a better break but i also now believe set and setting can influence a degree to how much magic mdma can put out. 

Snorted a 140 mg line myself felt a good loving social vibe emphatic and opening up for a good 4 hours with more stimulation and europhic feeling lasting up to 6 hours. Comedown is rough compared to just the pure mdma presses i have done over the years. I never have liked mda comedowns and i really wish i had a bunch of benzos to ride it out this time around. My comedowns last alot longer than most people due to lifetime abuse which almost makes it not worth it to roll i feel afterwards but in the moment i always love it. Had some very insane sleep paralysis drifting off voices etc very vivid very dark and intense images making it hard to sleep jolting me awake during that phase.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ Those sleep paralysis states are reeally valuable for meditation/astral projection/ remote viewing. If you have any interest in those types of things, that state is very easy to work with.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> @TripSitterNZ Those sleep paralysis states are really valuable for meditation/astral projection/ remote viewing. If you have any interest in those types of things, that state is very easy to work with.


i practice meditation daily which pays off when im doing combos and pushing myself to the edge of insanity so i can float downstream. been three days since i dropped i don't take 5htp on comedowns anymore but just a multi vitamin and trying to get rest in. I smelt the product i had this time was a bit of a root beer smell just light tan crystal that was more white when crushed up snorting kicked in within 15 minutes and a rush of love  and rolling lasted for a good duration. I am certain the magic can never be lost even during abuse if the product is good enough it will hit you still.


----------



## +96+

heatlessbbq said:


> MDMA was legal before 1985?








						What is the history of MDMA? | National Institute on Drug Abuse
					

MDMA was developed by a German pharmaceutical company in 1912. Originally known as “Methylsafrylaminc,” it was intended as a parent compound to synthesize medications that control bleeding, not to control appetite as is often incorrectly cited.33,34




					www.drugabuse.gov
				




Since it got scheduled in 1985 I guess it was legal before then.




heatlessbbq said:


> Thanks for answering back, guys.



I wouldn't take it too personally. And besides if you really wanted to find out a quick google is how I got the information above.

Much love.


----------



## heatlessbbq

heatlessbbq said:


> Thanks for answering back, guys.


----------



## Hilopsilo

scatterday said:


> We're not talking about a huge difference, Use a DMT breakthrough as an example. The mdma that currently is in circulation being mass produced by the Dutch feels like a DMT trip without the breakthrough. There's still entactogenic effects. Though the mdma we all remember and discuss openly here is like breaking through. You know it's a breakthrough experience once you've consumed it and post experience.
> 
> Everything feels different about it but when looking at it from a honest point of view there's not that much of a difference but you can most definitely differentiate the two.
> 
> *Oldschool mdma= DMT breakthrough (Profound, Beautiful, Blissful and memorable)
> Dutch mdma= Sub breakthrough dose and the effects are just toned down significantly*



Not a bad way to put it, if it wasn't for the crappy stuff having intensities that the good stuff doesn't have to the same extent, I'd chalk all this up to it just being less potent/weaker.

With DMT, yeah sub breakthrough is just a lower dose,  but just due to the nature of DMT, the not-quite-there doses are intense in ways the breakthrough isn't even. TBH I've never on purpose taken a "sub-breakthrough" dose of MDMA, but I've always entertained the possibility that my "meh" experiences were simply due to not quite hitting that threshold, due to various reasons, resulting in an experience thats just perceptually more intense in some aspects; just like sub breakthrough DMT is. The magic stuff I had *did* test as more potent, if only slightly, could that have tipped the scales? Maybe, I can't say for certain not. Theres certainly evidence for and against this.

As well, I've never heard much good about "sub-roll" MDMA doses, and it has always been described as an all-or-nothing experience.

Random but in a couple months will be 10 years since my first roll, I tried to count the other day and I believe I've rolled about 40-45 times in total. The amount of time between my rolls always makes looking back and trying to compare experiences difficult, also since at least half, maybe 60%, of my rolls have been in combination with highly varying doses of LSD, but ALWAYS 100mg of MDMA, still does the trick if its the magic stuff.


----------



## OrbitalCombustion

Had some Topenkopfs from Amsterdam recently, good feeling but no magic. The Shulgin-magic is gone. I had some at Burning Man last year, what a fucking disappointment, pretty sure it was MDA pawned off as MDMA.

@scatterday - I wholeheartedly agree that an isomer is to blame, its all about sources. The same thing has occurred in meth and even alprazolam. The ingredients are different and thusly the magic ripped from our eager minds.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

MDA is just as magic as mdma  and is best in combo. I have my own experince with a same batch of crystal giving magic rolls and non magic rolls i had it for over 8 months making me wonder if mdma ages like fine wine aswell somehow? probably not but i believe set and setting plays a huge more roll in this magic feel of mdma than most people think.


----------



## scatterday

The LSD synthesis is another one they've been cutting corners with. People often talk about rose tinted glasses but it's definitely not the case especially when there are users worldwide agreeing on this topic.

The isomer ratios are directly tied to the synthesis too, In my honest opinion oldskoolbee explained the exact issue. It can't be anything else, It's the most obvious thing.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Ok, I'm trying out some improvements.  @vecktor I got the freebase as per your instructions and used a glass capillary to apply.  I tried a 3:1 MEK:Heptane mix, and also tried acetone.

Results aren't great, I don't know if this is me messing up the freebase bit, or the solvent mix or anything else.  @Glubrahnum I haven't got the filter yet but I processed it and those are included below (the bluer ones).  I was using Gimp 2 which I don't know very well so I guess I could have done better but it kinda looks ok.

Should I just keep working on getting a better mix of solvents or am I doing anything else wrong?  I see in those documents you linked to @vecktor about solvents to try - I just need to get hold of them.


----------



## Rectify

It's Probably Counterfeit.


----------



## G_Chem

Alright I haven’t been in in awhile, pages and pages behind... But someone on Reddit analyzes their MDMA to find it contained MDDMA as well as MDA I’m fairly significant yet still minor quantities.

Now this would result from using homemade impure methylamine which contained dimethylamine and ammonium chloride as impurities.

What was interesting though was this...

“Haven't tried it yet. But based on peer reviews, apparently it's good. People indicating that it's a "clean high". Smooth come up, euphoric and a lot of the "I want to hug everyone" type of feelings. I'll try it in early Nov and report back with the results.
I also got it tested at another lab and it came back with MDMA with 5% mannitol (sugar alochol). The other lab didnt detect the MDDMA which was interesting. Seems like there are inconsistencies with the FTIR analysis.”

Two completely different results from two different labs.  These guys are far from on point in their analysis, lots of shit is obviously getting missed now that I see this.

This is your proof lab results can’t be trusted..

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

If someone wants to catch me up I’d love you for it lol.  Otherwise I’ll get to reading it soon..

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> If someone wants to catch me up I’d love you for it lol.  Otherwise I’ll get to reading it soon..
> 
> -GC



Found this https://www.researchgate.net/public...ethylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills

and this http://www.icadtsinternational.com/files/documents/2007_271.pdf

In 2007, out of 28 different MDMA samples tested for regioisomers, 9 contained "high" levels of one or more regioisomers. Study even suggests testing centers are likely to overlook this...

The study doesn't go into as much detail as I'd hoped, but this does make it easy to understand, pretty short and easy read. First piece of evidence that regioisiomers have in the past been identified in MDMA samples (as likely accidental byproducts of less than ideal uncontrolled synthesis circumstances). 

 Was thinking about reaching out to the people who conducted the study and see if they have any other notes on this that go into specifics.


----------



## babooon87

Got some serious Meh-DMA yesterday. The crystals were clear and looked exactly like the crystal methamphetamine I bought a few weeks before. Almost wished it was meth. Meth is many folds more magical and empathogenic than that Meh stuff that was ,at a staggerind dose of 300 mgs, just a weak,  long drawn out empty shell of a distant memory of a roll. An experience so hollow and insipid I dont remember what I did while on it. I think I was just sitting on my bed staring at the wall for the entire night with a mind so blanc and empty I could have been in a coma and it would have been the same experience. No energy but also couldnt sleep. No real comedown ( i mean yo have to at least go up a bit to come down ). Just an annoying fever like body overheating feeling that almost remind me of the glorious piperazine years. Almost miss the meth-bombs of the early 2000,s. How spoiled were we to complain about some meth in our pills... But again, how could we even in our wildest dreams predict the twisted turn we find ourselves in right now that the actual real product is worse than the adulterated copy cats.


----------



## Rectify

MDMA should NOT be recrystallized.  It's not shards!!!!


----------



## epic11

Rectify said:


> MDMA should NOT be recrystallized.  It's not shards!!!!



Interesting, care to elaborate a tad further with why you popped in here to say that? Are you aware of some glaring thing we arent? Please help!


----------



## epic11

babooon87 said:


> Got some serious Meh-DMA yesterday. The crystals were clear and looked exactly like the crystal methamphetamine I bought a few weeks before. Almost wished it was meth. Meth is many folds more magical and empathogenic than that Meh stuff that was ,at a staggerind dose of 300 mgs, just a weak,  long drawn out empty shell of a distant memory of a roll. An experience so hollow and insipid I dont remember what I did while on it. I think I was just sitting on my bed staring at the wall for the entire night with a mind so blanc and empty I could have been in a coma and it would have been the same experience. No energy but also couldnt sleep. No real comedown ( i mean yo have to at least go up a bit to come down ). Just an annoying fever like body overheating feeling that almost remind me of the glorious piperazine years. Almost miss the meth-bombs of the early 2000,s. How spoiled were we to complain about some meth in our pills... But again, how could we even in our wildest dreams predict the twisted turn we find ourselves in right now that the actual real product is worse than the adulterated copy cats.



That sounds like meh for sure. lol

Just found some new product in a storm drain, damn im lucky. It smacked me in the face with a smell i hadnt smelled in a while. (Saffrole/black licorice clearly, easily stronger smell than most of the mass produced stuff ive been seeing recently) Its a little more tacky, Mostly whitish crystals with a yellowish tinge, and much LESS see-through as a lot of this meh shit tends to be. (Just observations, not saying opaque cant be good, as i know it can. Proved recently with that roll.) I have high hopes for this batch.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

epic11 said:


> Mostly whitish crystals with a yellowish tinge, and much LESS see-through as a lot of this meh shit tends to be. (Just observations, not saying opaque cant be good, as i know it can. Proved recently with that roll.)



This statement confused me at first, but then I realised it was possibly a misuse of the word 'opaque'. I see this quite a lot and can cause confusion. So to clarify:

Transparent = see through
Translucent = semi see through
Opaque = not see through

The glass in bathroom windows is often (wrongly) called 'opaque', when in fact it is actually 'translucent'.


Just wanted to point this out so that we're all on the same page when describing our crystal


----------



## vecktor

are you making sure that the solvent level is below the spots when the plate is in the jar?  the solvent front is showing a lot of absorbtion at 254 and neither of those solvents, once dried should be showing any absorbance across the top solvent front.  is the developing jar clean?

the other possibility is that there are acidic components in the solvent which are making a salt from the freebase, the salt will hardly move in these solvent systems. this can be fixed by either adding a few drops of ammonia to the solvent or adding a few drops of triethylamine or by using purer solvents, and making sure you have freebase. 
this is a good guide with troubleshooting TLC





						Thin Layer Chromatography (TLC)
					






					orgchemboulder.com


----------



## epic11

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> This statement confused me at first, but then I realised it was possibly a misuse of the word 'opaque'. I see this quite a lot and can cause confusion. So to clarify:
> 
> Transparent = see through
> Translucent = semi see through
> Opaque = not see through
> 
> The glass in bathroom windows is often (wrongly) called 'opaque', when in fact it is actually 'translucent'.
> 
> 
> Just wanted to point this out so that we're all on the same page when describing our crystal


Thanks I definitely messed that up. Looking at your description, the crystal is definitely more on the Translucent/opaque spectrum than "transparent" Very pretty stuff. It even glistens in the light. You cant see through it nearly as well as some previous batches. But you can just a tad. Hope that helps.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vecktor said:


> are you making sure that the solvent level is below the spots when the plate is in the jar?  the solvent front is showing a lot of absorbtion at 254 and neither of those solvents, once dried should be showing any absorbance across the top solvent front.  is the developing jar clean?



I would say a very definite yes to all of that, but I'll have another go - probably wednesday, and be super diligent to make sure.



vecktor said:


> the other possibility is that there are acidic components in the solvent which are making a salt from the freebase, the salt will hardly move in these solvent systems. this can be fixed by either adding a few drops of ammonia to the solvent or adding a few drops of triethylamine or by using purer solvents, and making sure you have freebase.
> this is a good guide with troubleshooting TLC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thin Layer Chromatography (TLC)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> orgchemboulder.com



I'm getting the solvents from a chemical supplier and they claim 99.9% pure, etc...  Will try what you suggest if nothing improves.


----------



## vecktor

ThreePointCircle said:


> I would say a very definite yes to all of that, but I'll have another go - probably wednesday, and be super diligent to make sure.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting the solvents from a chemical supplier and they claim 99.9% pure, etc...  Will try what you suggest if nothing improves.


there are several documented TLC procedures specifically for amphetamine type compounds, system 2 in this paper is far more complex than one would think is needed but it is is dioxane, methanol, chloroform, aqueous ammonia.  the dioxane is probably there to allow the aqueous ammonia to mix with the non polar components. but 95% methanol 5% concentrated aqueous ammonia would probably work fine. As would  99 % acetone 1% conc aq. ammonia. Dioxane is a peroxide forming solvent and has long been suspected to be carcinogenic.



			http://acta-arhiv.chem-soc.si/54/54-1-106.pdf
		


the general rule is that you will need an amine, either ammonia diethylamine or triethylamine to keep the samples in freebase form and block acidic sites on the silica, your plates show tailing on the spots and ammonia or other solvent base would eliminate this. judging by the movement and shape there needs to be stronger solvent,and base.

minor thing, maybe also not draw the line all the way across the plate, just mark the edges, unles you are confident the pencil is soft enough not to damage the silica, also the pencil might contaminate the plate depending on what the graphite is bonded with.

the solvent systems in this paper are simpler and there are also recorded rf values for the systems (page 144)


			https://maps.org/images/pdf/1982_obrien_1.pdf
		


luckily there is no need to reinvent the wheel, a simple not too toxic solvent system for TLC would be very useful for HR


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@vecktor when they say concentrated ammonia hydroxide in that second paper, what do you think that means?  The place I've been getting the solvents from only has up to 33% concentration


----------



## vecktor

ammonium hydroxide NH4OH only exists as a solution of ammonia gas in water. Only a certain amount of ammonia will dissolve in water, roughly 35% by weight at room temperature which gives a powerful smelling solution with a density of 0.880g/ml   (concentrated ammonia is often called 880 ammonia,)  concentrated ammonia means any ammonia solution over 10% and 33% or 35 % is as concentrated as it gets.
quite often ammonium hydroxide is used as a shorthand for ammonia in water solution to distinguish it from ammonia gas or liquid ammonia, which is sort of correct but not great.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@vecktor ah cool, ok


----------



## G_Chem

Thanks Hilo,

Yea I saw that posted elsewhere recently (likely from someone already involved in this discussion) as well as another research article claiming similar results.

I find it interesting too that the authors postulate (can’t remember which article lol) these regioisomers are originating from the particular synthesis route used and not added in after the fact.

All of this correlates well with our theory that different routes seem to produce different product.  And also why back in the Hive days, people were confused when they’d make a batch which acts exactly as MDMA should but still seems lackluster with no apparent explanation.

It’s fascinating just how far we have to go in learning about chemistry and pharmacology..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I received my Mandelin reagent and performed tests on four samples. Just a quick refresher on what the four samples are...

Sample 1: This is the sample I had access to from 2005 onward. Same supplier. Never felt quite right. No eye dilation. Bad comedown. Have not used it in several years now, as I have been trying other samples. I think the last time I used it was November, 2017. Appearance = white/off white powder.

Sample 2: Tried this last NYE. Very little eye dilation. Lots of jaw clenching. No empathy or music appreciation. Stronger than sample 1, but still not right. Unpleasant comedown, as I recall. Appearance = pink/brown powder. As it has sat around over the last year it looks more like dirt than sand. Very brown, and forming into tiny clumps. 

Sample 3: Most recent sample that I obtained. Better effects than other samples, but felt weak. Had more eye dilation than other samples, but still not full dilation. There was a brief moment, as I was coming up, where I felt the slightest possibility of magic, but the feeling never fully evolved. Appearance = translucent, large, crystals. Speculated that something may have been added to make the crystals so large. Friend said the product appeared hydrous (is that the right term?). 

Sample 4: Newest sample. Have not consumed. Tested good on other tests and smells like the 90s (strong, root beer). Appearance = fluffy, light, off white powder.

Out of these four samples, I observed the following Mandelin results:

Sample 1 - Black. Minimal bubbling. Minimal smoking.

Sample 2 - Black. Minimal bubbling. No smoke. After sitting for awhile, there was a very slight blue area at the edge of the black.

Sample 3 - At first, I thought I saw a hint of green at the start. I tested this one twice to double check, but on the 2nd test I did not note any green. This one bubbled and smoked A LOT. There was constant bubbling and smoking, even after the reagent turned black.

Sample 4 - Green first (quick) then black. Smoking but almost no bubbling. 

I find the combination of these elements interesting. Surely the smoking/bubbling is indicative of something, and the flash of green seems significant as well. Other people who have observed Mandelin reactions: have you noted smoking or bubbling?


----------



## indigoaura

In other news...

I made an impulsive decision over the weekend and consumed some MDMA. In previous post, this is referenced as sample 3. I had done it about 3 months ago. I was planning to abstain all the way through until NYE, and that would have been a better call for the experiment's sake. But, I was at an event and with friends, and wanted to have a good time. Shrug. It is what it is. Not a lot new to note, really. My results were basically the same as they were the last time I tried this product. I had eaten recently, so onset was delayed. The only thing I really noticed that I wanted feedback on was what was going on with my jaw. I am familiar with jaw clenching. However, jaw trembling/vibrating is a bit different. I thought the sensation was odd, and not one that I typically get. Has anyone noticed variation in jaw clenching vs. jaw trembling/vibrating?

Took 150 mg @ 11:38 pm (had eaten a large meal around 8:30 pm)
Started to come up @ 1:08 am
Peak from first dose @1:39 am
85 mg re-dose @ 2:15 am
Feeling re-dose @ 3:05 am
Took note of jaw vibrations @ 3:05 am
Took a 2nd 85 mg re-dose @ 4:30 am

Stayed awake until 7 am. Talked to friends off and on basically the whole time and laid around. No opportunity for sex, because my partner crashed right after I started partying. Music did not seem enhanced. No euphoria to note. Forgetfulness was a big problem. I must have lost my train of thought a million times. Not an issue I usually notice, but I am also usually not talking so much. I had to keep asking my friends what I was talking about. Went right to sleep at 7 am with no issue. Slept till 4 pm. Had a great night the next evening, and have had no significant comedown issues other than some minor nausea here and there. 

Overall, this was a decent "meh" product, all things considered. It did not really make me sick like the other samples I have had access to. Easy to sleep afterwards. I have no way to access this stuff again, and I don't have enough left to send in to a lab, but at least I saved enough for the Mandelin tests that I posted about.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Has anyone noticed variation in jaw clenching vs. jaw trembling/vibrating?


If you mean I kind of shaking and spasming like up and down or rather open and closed, with visible muscle reflexes and spasms visible in the cheeks and jawline, then yes absolutely. Of all the physiological effects, signs and cues, that particular one for me was the most magical and coincided with the best pills and most intense level of amazing magical euphoria in the experience.

Typically much more present at higher doses. Like for example, 2001, we had some FANTASTIC Smiley Face batches gping round. Absolutely out of this world pills. The first night we tried them my friend arrived with 10 and we were going to a club.

These will a type of pills that as soon as he pulled them out of his jacket the unmistakable MDMA aroma captivated my senses and and was practically intoxicating and will send shivers down your spine from several feet away.

We both took one pill each and we came up within 10 minutes in the pub I was on another planet for about an hour and a half until things level down and the experience really began because it was such a climb  and transition.

Just one of those pills would do an entire night with an amazing experience and following day. However I was disappointed when Dominic Souls 2 of our pills to friends outside the pub before we had even made it to the club.

We really didn't need more than 1 but we both took 4 pills each and it was one of the most outstanding MDMA experiences I've ever had. Just absolutely on Top of the World everything poorly brilliant and amazing not a single second or hint of anything slightly negative or less than perfectly blessful and ideal however you looked at things.

We were completely off our heads in this club having a best dance ever. The two guys Dominic sold the two smiley faces too came up to us later in the club absolutely blown away animazement at how good that one pill each was and how it was miles better Than 4 pills they took the previous week which were white Rolexes.

We were sitting on benches in the outside section and and I remember my jaw literally shaking and spasm me up and down open and closed in what you could almost described as a violent manner. But not a problem at all I was absolutely as sky-high rushing on pure ecstasy as you could possibly want to be.

I experienced this particular spasming of the draw many times and always at that level of pure sheer amazing MDMA experience, very dose-related though in an intensity of effects sense.

Jaw clenching was very typical, less apparent with heavy regular use, resulting in a visibly increased muscle mass and tone in the jaw. To the point of being a telltale sign of a heavy "piller".


----------



## indigoaura

Chewing up the inside of my mouth was always an issue with good pills, or having a jaw that was just askew. But, I don't really recall trembling like I was cold.


----------



## Trevylianos

Um it was too readily available in crystal form for me to take responsibly.


----------



## G_Chem

I’ve heard the same complaint from others indigo, that the old product had more of swinging/chewing jaw whereas these days you see a lot of trembling like the person is really cold or something.

I’ve personally never had bad jaw clenching but I’m also a health nut and believe a lot of that comes from lacking magnesium in the diet.  If anything it’s usually like a weird jaw position that I see on others or that I experience myself, kinda like out and to the side lol.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I watched some Youtube videos of Mandelin reactions. The 6APB reaction looks a lot like the reactions I saw tonight with the bubbling. 

Also @G_Chem, you are right about the weird jaw position that is out and to the side. I see that in old photos and videos. 2CB will sometimes give me that "cold" shivering effect, but I don't remember MDMA having that effect.


----------



## epic11

indigoaura said:


> I
> 
> I find the combination of these elements interesting. Surely the smoking/bubbling is indicative of something, and the flash of green seems significant as well. Other people who have observed Mandelin reactions: have you noted smoking or bubbling?



The last batch i took, which was as close to a magic roll as ive had in a long time. Flashed green first, then black. Smoked too. That was GOOD SHIT. Matches what the original theory of a mandelin test may do if it were magic. Batch #4 matches my mandelin test. I think you are holding something fire.




indigoaura said:


> In other news...
> 
> I made an impulsive decision over the weekend and consumed some MDMA. In previous post, this is referenced as sample 3. I had done it about 3 months ago. I was planning to abstain all the way through until NYE, and that would have been a better call for the experiment's sake. But, I was at an event and with friends, and wanted to have a good time. Shrug. It is what it is. Not a lot new to note, really. My results were basically the same as they were the last time I tried this product. I had eaten recently, so onset was delayed. The only thing I really noticed that I wanted feedback on was what was going on with my jaw. I am familiar with jaw clenching. However, jaw trembling/vibrating is a bit different. I thought the sensation was odd, and not one that I typically get. Has anyone noticed variation in jaw clenching vs. jaw trembling/vibrating?
> 
> Took 150 mg @ 11:38 pm (had eaten a large meal around 8:30 pm)
> Started to come up @ 1:08 am
> Peak from first dose @1:39 am
> 85 mg re-dose @ 2:15 am
> Feeling re-dose @ 3:05 am
> Took note of jaw vibrations @ 3:05 am
> Took a 2nd 85 mg re-dose @ 4:30 am
> 
> Stayed awake until 7 am. Talked to friends off and on basically the whole time and laid around. No opportunity for sex, because my partner crashed right after I started partying. Music did not seem enhanced. No euphoria to note. Forgetfulness was a big problem. I must have lost my train of thought a million times. Not an issue I usually notice, but I am also usually not talking so much. I had to keep asking my friends what I was talking about. Went right to sleep at 7 am with no issue. Slept till 4 pm. Had a great night the next evening, and have had no significant comedown issues other than some minor nausea here and there.
> 
> Overall, this was a decent "meh" product, all things considered. It did not really make me sick like the other samples I have had access to. Easy to sleep afterwards. I have no way to access this stuff again, and I don't have enough left to send in to a lab, but at least I saved enough for the Mandelin tests that I posted about.



^ being forgetful has always been a side-effect of good mdma in my opinion, but my partner agrees the meh shit has a more "memory erasing" property to it. Forgetfulness is more pronounced on meh in my experiences as well.

Jaw trembling vs clenching is actually pretty normal. Ive seen both. Music not being enhanced and no euphoria is also big signs of meh, it also upsets me. Thats the best part! lol


----------



## psy997

I'm hoping to try this new batch I got a while back in a week or two. If it's good, I'll get a Mandelin to test both it and the two batches of Meh I have.


----------



## G_Chem

It’s exciting to see my Mandelin test theory might actually pan out   Can’t wait for Indigo to try that newest batch, but don’t rush of course!

Also just a heads up guys, I saw that many vendors over near UK have sliced their prices in half.  Lots of people wondering why?..

Well if anyone remembers that PMK glycidate was recently internationally regulated, my guess is that many of the Chinese suppliers sold off their last stock at really cheap prices.  And now we’re seeing that in the price of the final product..

This also means we could be seeing the calm before the storm.  I highly recommend stocking up, for those that get magic product.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Unless something really significant changes, I will be rolling on NYE. Hopefully, with this new product. It will only be a 2 month wait. Shorter than I prefer, at my age. But, I am bringing in 2020 right. 



> being forgetful has always been a side-effect of good mdma in my opinion, but my partner agrees the meh shit has a more "memory erasing" property to it. Forgetfulness is more pronounced on meh in my experiences as well.



Yeah, I will do stuff like go into a room and forget why or whatever, but it seemed really pronounced with this recent stuff. Usually, it seemed more like I would forget what I was doing because I got distracted with other surroundings, people etc. But, this weekend I would literally be mid sentence talking and just have no clue what I was saying or what I was about to say. Nothing happened to distract me, I just lost my thoughts.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> Also just a heads up guys, I saw that many vendors over near UK have sliced their prices in half.  Lots of people wondering why?..
> 
> Well if anyone remembers that PMK glycidate was recently internationally regulated, my guess is that many of the Chinese suppliers sold off their last stock at really cheap prices.  And now we’re seeing that in the price of the final product..
> 
> This also means we could be seeing the calm before the storm.  I highly recommend stocking up, for those that get magic product.



Well if the PMK glycidate has been a factor in the quality of uk product then maybe we should be cheering its demise


----------



## G_Chem

^^^True.  I was hesitant to say anything for this reason but I’m starting to believe the problem may be in the final amination stage and not so much an issue with the starting precursor (could be very wrong on this.).

We could see a resurgence of safrole MDMA, as the market is large at this point and likely to not be very accepting of the loss of production.  That said we could also see some deforestation taking place because of it.

I think the thing that kills me most about the time they destroyed literal tons of safrole in SE Asia around 2007, was all the trees that likely died to get that...

-GC


----------



## epic11

ThreePointCircle said:


> Well if the PMK glycidate has been a factor in the quality of uk product then maybe we should be cheering its demise



Bring on the real og safrole based mdma please. We will welcome it.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Well my chem suppliers sent petroleum ether instead of ethyl acetate  so I'm going to have to postpone the ethyl acetate/methanol/water/ammonia test.  I did though try acetone/ammonia:


I did it without pencil lines going across at the bottom although I marked out where the front ended.  I should say this is still the same sample prep as last time so don't know if it has died somewhat, sitting in DCM.  Anyway, it was to test the ammonia.  No longer a spot at the start, but a smear in the middle and a big front.  I'll try the other system as soon as I receive the ethyl acetate.


----------



## vash445

epic11 said:


> Bring on the real og safrole based mdma please. We will welcome it.


I just had some safrole based MDMA, I believe it was meh and not magic... due to the really high dose I took...


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> It’s exciting to see my Mandelin test theory might actually pan out   Can’t wait for Indigo to try that newest batch, but don’t rush of course!
> 
> Also just a heads up guys, I saw that many vendors over near UK have sliced their prices in half.  Lots of people wondering why?..
> 
> Well if anyone remembers that PMK glycidate was recently internationally regulated, my guess is that many of the Chinese suppliers sold off their last stock at really cheap prices.  And now we’re seeing that in the price of the final product..
> 
> This also means we could be seeing the calm before the storm.  I highly recommend stocking up, for those that get magic product.
> 
> -GC



safrole is STILL around, I know I got some. It's around just not as easy to get in the usa... because of this I believe I have meh, safrole to wacker to al/hg, but I did go really crazy with mdma at some point in my life. The batch has been sent out to a friend for future analysis better then EC  because I have told him about this thread and analysis ishis thing...

I get get teeth clenching at 150mg thou.... off my friends product.. and my friend was also happy.


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> That said we could also see some deforestation taking place because of it.


That's a thought G_Chem, if MDMA was legal, if it was actually possible, they would surely have a large, organised re-planting programme.

So the eventual exctinction of the tree will in fact be the direct result of drug policy, and not greedy self concerned pill popping youths, as the picture has been painted beside the cartels of course.

But the governments? No they only tried their best to improve the situation as always.


----------



## vash445

AutoTripper said:


> That's a thought G_Chem, if MDMA was legal, if it was actually possible, they would surely have a large, organised re-planting programme.
> 
> So the eventual exctinction of the tree will in fact be the direct result of drug policy, and not greedy self concerned pill popping youths, as the picture has been painted beside the cartels of course.
> 
> But the governments? No they only tried their best to improve the situation as always.




NO the new MDMA is synth thru Pieronal... It is rated GMP and qualifies. I talked to maps... No trees needed.
*How is medical MDMA synth? precursors and animation?*

Our GMP product is made from piperonal and is 99.99% pure

*Dr Ben Sessa*MBBS BSc MRCPsych
Adolescent and Adult Addictions Psychiatrist Psychedelic Researcher, Bristol University and Imperial College London.
*www.drsessa.com*


----------



## vecktor

ThreePointCircle said:


> Well my chem suppliers sent petroleum ether instead of ethyl acetate  so I'm going to have to postpone the ethyl acetate/methanol/water/ammonia test.  I did though try acetone/ammonia:
> 
> View attachment 16443View attachment 16444
> I did it without pencil lines going across at the bottom although I marked out where the front ended.  I should say this is still the same sample prep as last time so don't know if it has died somewhat, sitting in DCM.  Anyway, it was to test the ammonia.  No longer a spot at the start, but a smear in the middle and a big front.  I'll try the other system as soon as I receive the ethyl acetate.


at least it is moving properly in that solvent system, Have you got a bit of filter paper in the developing jar to make sure the atmosphere is saturated with solvent? the split is because you didn't dot in the same place I can see the 2 marks where you dotted. so what you have is two closely spaced dots running. the drift to the right is probably due to the solvent front not running straight and solvent evaporating off the sides, saturating the atmosphere with a piece of filter paper will help.
It might also be worth drying your plates before you use them, I am guessing they are quite old, heat them in an ordinary oven face up on a tray at 120oC for 30minutes to an hour then allow them to cool before using them.
your chromatography is definitely improving, also try mutiple spots, 1 with 1 dot, the next with 2 dots in the same place then 3 dots leave 1cm between the dots so the loading at each point is greater than the previous dot.

to eliminate one possibility you could do a check, run a plate without any dotting of samples, if there is still a large absorbance on the front then it is either in the solvent or in the plate itself.  the test plate can then be used with a sample to save plates if you want. 

nice to see some real science for a change!


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> NO the new MDMA is synth thru Pieronal... It is rated GMP and qualifies. I talked to maps... No trees needed.
> *How is medical MDMA synth? precursors and animation?*
> 
> Our GMP product is made from piperonal and is 99.99% pure
> 
> *Dr Ben Sessa*MBBS BSc MRCPsych
> Adolescent and Adult Addictions Psychiatrist Psychedelic Researcher, Bristol University and Imperial College London.
> *www.drsessa.com*



where do you think piperonal comes from commercially mostly??? sassafras and camphor oil which comes from trees.
This is I think the route Nichols developed for MAPS was fully documented but non GMP,  but according to MAPS there was a huge new cost and it is super complex...

"The total cost of one kilogram of MDMA from SPS is approximately $400,000"  

someone is making a killing here, but it is unclear whether it is MAPS inflating the costs, or whether it is SPS making a meal out of it. The real question is does MAPS own the contents of the drug master file or equivalent for an IND or do SPS Shasun Sterling or whatever they are currently called own it. If MAPS don't own this info or don't have full rights to it then they have just been taken for a ride, because they can only source GMP material from SPS and no one else ever without going through the whole 400USD per gram game all over again.

there is no danger of sassafras or camphor trees becoming extinct provided law enforcement don't go round burning the trees. There a lot more safrole containing plants in Brazil than South East Asia.


----------



## SunriseChampion

Sorry to interject here, but I'm pretty stoked about what I've found and wanted to share it here to up the hope factor.

I first did MDMA in 2004 in pill form and have since then considered it my favourite drug (I haven't used a great variety of drugs, so that valuation may not mean much).
Unfortunately, around these parts, the quality of pills at that time was already in serious decline. I would estimate that only 30% of pills bought at that time were legit, most of the rest being meth.
By 2009, the quality of pills around here could only be described as complete shite. By 2010, pills had completely disappeared. I haven't seen one since. It's all been sold as powder and it's all been rubbish. In fact, I've avoided it like the plague for at least the last 6 years.

Until last year when a friend of mine gave me a bit of hers at a music festival. Holy shit, wtf is this?! Could it be? It came in powder form and I insufflated a rather small bump (hard to estimate weight,  but I might wager it was ~50-75mg of powder). Ten minutes later I started feeling quite.....um....let's call it lovey. The entire experience was very reminiscent of my early MDMA experiences, though, obviously a weak effect, it was quite pleasant in that it couldn't possibly be overwhelming at that dose. 

The friend who gave it to me was friends with the guy she got it from so she was able to hook up another friend who lives in western Canada for shipping out there.
That friend has tested it to death with reagents and in vivo and says it's legit. About 8 months ago, the middle man decided to "retire" and hooked up our friend out west with the source. This source told our friend it was made using safrole, whatever that's worth (admittedly not much, anyone can say anything).
My friend is convinced it is.

So, me and him are getting some fairly soon so I'm hoping to test it myself, both with every reagent money can buy but also by dosing a higher dose. Hopefully it's as legit as I remember it and am told it is because I'll be stuck with a rather decent amount of it (that's how the industry works).

I'll report back when I do.

I'm pretty stoked because the lack of proppa MDMA around these parts in the last decade + has been a bit depressing.


----------



## SunriseChampion

So, apparently this is a thing now. I just learned about it in this thread

Free drug testing performed using gas and liquid chromatography by St Michael's Hospital or the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health

I live right by one of the public health clinics where you can drop samples off. So stoked to have this MDMA we're getting tested. I didn't know this service existed.


----------



## epic11

SunriseChampion said:


> So, apparently this is a thing now. I just learned about it in this thread
> 
> Free drug testing performed using gas and liquid chromatography by St Michael's Hospital or the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
> 
> I live right by one of the public health clinics where you can drop samples off. So stoked to have this MDMA we're getting tested. I didn't know this service existed.



Nice, let us know the results. Sounds interesting.


----------



## SunriseChampion

epic11 said:


> Nice, let us know the results. Sounds interesting.



For sure. I'm super stoked.

This is like Christmas for me.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> where do you think piperonal comes from commercially mostly??? sassafras and camphor oil which comes from trees.
> This is I think the route Nichols developed for MAPS was fully documented but non GMP,  but according to MAPS there was a huge new cost and it is super complex...
> 
> "The total cost of one kilogram of MDMA from SPS is approximately $400,000"
> 
> someone is making a killing here, but it is unclear whether it is MAPS inflating the costs, or whether it is SPS making a meal out of it. The real question is does MAPS own the contents of the drug master file or equivalent for an IND or do SPS Shasun Sterling or whatever they are currently called own it. If MAPS don't own this info or don't have full rights to it then they have just been taken for a ride, because they can only source GMP material from SPS and no one else ever without going through the whole 400USD per gram game all over again.
> 
> there is no danger of sassafras or camphor trees becoming extinct provided law enforcement don't go round burning the trees. There a lot more safrole containing plants in Brazil than South East Asia.


First it would make no sense to go from safrole to piperional to MDMA.. literately it would make 0 sense, MDA yes... MDMA no


I stay up to date on the LATEST and greatest MDA/MDMA routes some hidden some more present, but most commercial route to Piperional clandestine and wholesale is now made by a new route typically speaking... without safrole... I imagine to QUALIFY for GMP thru SPS It would have to be . this route was patented in the 2000s so it is very old and well documented. The chemistry is sound knowing it is the 3,4 glycol






__





						US6686482B2 - Process for preparing piperonal          - Google Patents
					

The present invention is to provide a process for producing piperonal which comprises continuous three steps of:       (A) an addition reaction step wherein 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene and glyoxylic acid are reacted to form 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid in the presence of a strong acid...



					patents.google.com
				





The present invention is to provide a process for producing piperonal which comprises continuous three steps of:

(A) an addition reaction step wherein 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene and glyoxylic acid are reacted to form 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid in the presence of a strong acid,

(B) an extraction step wherein an organic solvent is then added to a reaction mixture and the mixture is neutralized with a base to extract 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid in an organic solvent layer, and separating the organic solvent layer and an aqueous layer, and

(C) an oxidation reaction step wherein the aqueous layer is removed and the organic solvent layer is concentrated, and then, nitric acid is added to a concentrate, and the 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid and nitric acid are reacted to form piperonal.

  Of course I have another route to piperonal But I will not say it here... People who make it from pepper or safrole are retarded considering 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene can be made from catechol cheap a waste product ...


----------



## vash445

My safrole based mdma came in... So I will be doing more tests later with the product..

96-98 % by nmr. ( depends on what the impurity is....it's that little triplet at 3.6)Which btw both look fine and just in case anyone is doubtful, a MALDI giving [M+H]:194.422 Mol.Wt.: 193.246.


----------



## scatterday

vash445 said:


> My safrole based mdma came in... So I will be doing more tests later with the product..
> 
> 96-98 % by nmr. ( depends on what the impurity is....it's that little triplet at 3.6)Which btw both look fine and just in case anyone is doubtful, a MALDI giving [M+H]:194.422 Mol.Wt.: 193.246.



Very interested in this, How do you know it was safrole based and have you tried any of this mdma yet?

Eager to hear if safrole alone is enough to give the magic effects.


----------



## vash445

scatterday said:


> Very interested in this, How do you know it was safrole based and have you tried any of this mdma yet?
> 
> Eager to hear if safrole alone is enough to give the magic effects.



Safrole sourced myself, sent a LARGE sample to a friend with NMR and confirmed sassy.. Sent 4oz  to someone else to make via benz wacker because he had the stuff besides safrole around...

read my post above ... safrole is STILL around, I know I got some. It's around just not as easy to get in the usa ... because of this I believe I have meh, safrole to wacker to al/hg, but I did go really crazy with mdma at some point in my life. The batch has been sent out to a friend for future analysis better then EC  because I have told him about this thread and analysis this thing...

I did get teeth clenching at 150mg thou.... off my friends product.. 

more tests will be done as I have plently of oil and a few grams left.


----------



## andyturbo

I second what Scatterday said. This is really really interesting. I've just caught up on the last few pages.

Looking forward to hearing more.


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> First it would make no sense to go from safrole to piperional to MDMA.. literately it would make 0 sense, MDA yes... MDMA no
> 
> 
> I stay up to date on the LATEST and greatest MDA/MDMA routes some hidden some more present, but most commercial route to Piperional clandestine and wholesale is now made by a new route typically speaking... without safrole... I imagine to QUALIFY for GMP thru SPS It would have to be . this route was patented in the 2000s so it is very old and well documented. The chemistry is sound knowing it is the 3,4 glycol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US6686482B2 - Process for preparing piperonal          - Google Patents
> 
> 
> The present invention is to provide a process for producing piperonal which comprises continuous three steps of:       (A) an addition reaction step wherein 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene and glyoxylic acid are reacted to form 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid in the presence of a strong acid...
> 
> 
> 
> patents.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The present invention is to provide a process for producing piperonal which comprises continuous three steps of:
> 
> (A) an addition reaction step wherein 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene and glyoxylic acid are reacted to form 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid in the presence of a strong acid,
> 
> (B) an extraction step wherein an organic solvent is then added to a reaction mixture and the mixture is neutralized with a base to extract 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid in an organic solvent layer, and separating the organic solvent layer and an aqueous layer, and
> 
> (C) an oxidation reaction step wherein the aqueous layer is removed and the organic solvent layer is concentrated, and then, nitric acid is added to a concentrate, and the 3,4-methylenedioxymandelic acid and nitric acid are reacted to form piperonal.
> 
> Of course I have another route to piperonal But I will not say it here... People who make it from pepper or safrole are retarded considering 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene can be made from catechol cheap a waste product ...



Or safrole can be oxidised directly to piperonal. Safrole is a cheap item of commerce. I wonder what do lot of the industrial producers do?  Industrial as in commercial legitimate chemical manufacturers, not hive bee idiots or clandestine chemists. They can get hold of safrole, its dirt cheap. There are literally hundreds of routes to piperonal which any chemist could work out at least 10 in about 5 minutes, but only some of them are going to be cheap and why bother when you can just buy it.

SPS, if they are using piperonal, can just buy it. Indeed if they wanted to start from MDP2P they could just buy that too. They are not clandestine, if they wanted to start from safrole they could just buy it, they have a sch1 licence and can buy any MDMA precursor they like. So your clandestine methods and teks are totally irrelevant.

I suspect you don't know how cGMP works. The chemistry doesn't have to be novel, whilst the starting materials have to be quality controlled through acceptance criteria, but they can be ordinary items of commerce and it is up to the GMP manufacturer to state at which point the in process material is fully under cGMP.  The purpose is to have a repeatable documented process in a suitable facility, where the impurities are identified, and a final release specification is created, the process is followed each time which ensures that the product is consistent within batch and batch to batch.  A QP could in theory propose to take commercial products and do one step reaction under cGMP in a cGMP facility and it would then be compliant with CFR21 and the product GMP.  cGMP is a strange paperwork generating religion, a lot of GMP manufacturers are not very dilligent or professional, it was historically designed for parenteral drugs but it has spread everywhere.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> Or safrole can be oxidised directly to piperonal. Safrole is a cheap item of commerce. I wonder what do lot of the industrial producers do?  Industrial as in commercial legitimate chemical manufacturers, not hive bee idiots or clandestine chemists. They can get hold of safrole, its dirt cheap. There are literally hundreds of routes to piperonal which any chemist could work out at least 10 in about 5 minutes, but only some of them are going to be cheap and why bother when you can just buy it.
> 
> SPS, if they are using piperonal, can just buy it. Indeed if they wanted to start from MDP2P they could just buy that too. They are not clandestine, if they wanted to start from safrole they could just buy it, they have a sch1 licence and can buy any MDMA precursor they like. So your clandestine methods and teks are totally irrelevant.
> 
> I suspect you don't know how cGMP works. The chemistry doesn't have to be novel, whilst the starting materials have to be quality controlled through acceptance criteria, but they can be ordinary items of commerce and it is up to the GMP manufacturer to state at which point the in process material is fully under cGMP.  The purpose is to have a repeatable documented process in a suitable facility, where the impurities are identified, and a final release specification is created, the process is followed each time which ensures that the product is consistent within batch and batch to batch.  A QP could in theory propose to take commercial products and do one step reaction under cGMP in a cGMP facility and it would then be compliant with CFR21 and the product GMP.  cGMP is a strange paperwork generating religion, a lot of GMP manufacturers are not very dilligent or professional, it was historically designed for parenteral drugs but it has spread everywhere.



I've looked into cGMP before, this includes labs in india for drugs imported into USA and LMAO as you say are not very diligent or professional, I believe the route also has to be high yielding.. It's true they could Buy MDP2P or safrole or any other chem from sigma.. so your right the route is technically irrelevant,


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> I've looked into cGMP before, this includes labs in india for drugs imported into USA and LMAO as you say are not very diligent or professional, I believe the route also has to be high yielding.. It's true they could Buy MDP2P or safrole or any other chem from sigma.. so your right the route is technically irrelevant,



Looking at MDMA from a GMP point of view, avoiding safrole is probably a good idea because safrole is listed by the FDA as a suspect human carcingen and has pretty tight limits on the amount allowed coming out of the infamous root beer controversy. It has effectively a blanket ban on using safrole in food and drugs.
but the rule could be circumvented by buying MDP-2-P as the SM.
Maybe SPS took MAPS for as much money as they could knowing that MAPS have pretty deep pockets and not much industry knowledge. Or MAPS realised that they could raise a significant amount of funds in a drive to make GMP MDMA. who knows.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> Looking at MDMA from a GMP point of view, avoiding safrole is probably a good idea because safrole is listed by the FDA as a suspect human carcingen and has pretty tight limits on the amount allowed coming out of the infamous root beer controversy. It has effectively a blanket ban on using safrole in food and drugs.
> but the rule could be circumvented by buying MDP-2-P as the SM.
> Maybe SPS took MAPS for as much money as they could knowing that MAPS have pretty deep pockets and not much industry knowledge. Or MAPS realised that they could raise a significant amount of funds in a drive to make GMP MDMA. who knows.











						In Pursuit of GMP MDMA - Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies - MAPS
					

Author: Ilsa Jerome, Ph.D. Contributing Authors: Berra Yazar Klosinski Ph.D., Allison Feduccia Ph.D., Ilsa Jerome Ph.D., Rick Doblin, Ph.D. MAPS Bulletin Winter 2016: Vol. 26, No. 3 – Annual Report Download this article. Ilsa Jerome, Ph.D. In 2017, when MAPS begins conducting our Phase 3...




					maps.org
				





I was excited to assist with this project in part due to the impact that a shortage of GMP MDMA was having on human trials. The absence of GMP MDMA available for research makes the work more difficult and expensive, and discourages scientists from pursuing interesting questions. By manufacturing affordable GMP MDMA and making it available to researchers, we can spur more research into the therapeutic efficacy and mechanisms of action of MDMA.

*The search*
In order to find the right manufacturer, we first had to locate companies that had GMP facilities and Schedule 1 licenses, or at least one of those features. The search was a team effort, with several researchers and colleagues contributing the names or contact information for candidate firms or offering advice about what to look for in a candidate firm.

I was able to establish through searching company websites that over half of our first set of candidates lacked one or both of the essential features we needed, while others had at least one GMP facility or a Schedule 1 license. These companies were found around the world, but most had a U.S. or North American office.

A few firms initially expressed interest but later declined to take on the project. After gathering advice from colleagues with experience in drug development, we started asking representatives more specific questions. We asked about the company’s prior experience taking a drug through the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) drug approval process, their experience working with similar molecules, and what processes were in place for documenting the processes and resolving issues. The process was slower than I might have imagined.

When candidate firms were interested in the contract, they sent a proposal to us with information on time scale and pricing for their product. Collecting and comparing these various proposals was a significant organizational challenge which we were able to solve. We met with representatives from candidate companies at several points in the search, varying from a simple telephone conversation to a teleconference with half a dozen people in three different time zones. We even had a few in-person meetings with representatives from two of the strong candidates, including Shasun, a UK-based pharmaceutical manufacturing company with GMP facilities.

*Finding a firm*
We chose Shasun—now Sterling Pharmaceutical Services LLC (SPS)—because they offered a reasonable price and an organized proposal, had previous experience with the FDA, and already had plans for shipping and storage. The Shasun/SPS representatives we met also seemed interested and very engaged in the project, meeting with me and MAPS Executive Director Rick Doblin in person, and responding quickly to our questions. They even had prior experience with similar molecules, and had taken drugs through the FDA approval process. Unfortunately, they were not able encapsulate or package the MDMA after manufacturing, so we are now in the process of locating one or more firms willing to complete these final steps. I was personally excited, too, since SPS’ final proposal had selected as a precursor a compound used in flavoring and perfumery, and I have a personal interest in fragrance chemistry.

Since we signed the contract with SPS, we have received regular communications from members of their team in the UK. After resolving a small issue obtaining a license from the British Home Office to manufacturer a controlled substance, SPS began taking the first steps in formulating a production route. They send us biweekly reports of each step in the process, including any snags or difficulties they encounter. At one point, we received images of test results from the material. We are fortunate to have the expertise of David Nichols and a Swiss pharmacologist in this process, whom we include in our correspondence with SPS.

Shasun/SPS CEO Kevin Cook generously agreed to speak with _The Guardian (UK)_ for a September 2016 feature article entitled “My Therapist Gave Me a Pill: Can MDMA Help Cure Trauma?” The article reported that about 20 of the company’s 325 UK staff are involved in the MDMA production process. “We can handle products here where there is a high risk of diversion—products that can be used for recreational as well as medical benefit,” Cook told _The Guardian_. For Shasun, MDMA fits right into their existing work. “We just treat it like any other project,” said Shasun chemist Robert Smith, Ph.D.

We have now moved from route finding and small test batches of MDMA to larger-scale manufacturing. Ultimately, SPS will produce one kilogram of MDMA for MAPS later this year. After production, SPS will perform further tests and analyses, including a long-running stability test. MAPS will need about 500 grams of MDMA for use in our Phase 3 research studies. The remainder of the material will be used in Expanded Access trials, and distributed by MAPS to other researchers around the world.

*Lessons learned*
Finding a GMP manufacturer, and now searching for a firm to package the drug, has taught me much about the pharmaceutical chemistry industry. I was surprised at how specific a niche a company might occupy. Some companies only produce the active pharmaceutical ingredient (API) without encapsulating or tableting it, while other companies primarily encapsulate or package, and others work on biological materials only.

I also learned that what we had considered to be a large batch of MDMA is actually considered small in the realm of drug manufacturing. Representatives from several firms told us that they could just as easily make a kilogram of MDMA as they could 100g or 500g, so the price would be almost the same. Since that was the case, trying to determine exactly how much MDMA we would need for Phase 3 trials was not necessary. If the price is similar and we can further more research by bringing more GMP MDMA into the world, then why not order a kilogram?

I had expected that manufacturing a chemical that is over 100 years old to be a simple process, like making widgets. I thought that there was a set of directions that all pharmacologists and chemists would know that would produce MDMA. However, from our discussions and exchanges during the search, we learned that building a chemical is more akin to cooking or artwork: finding a cost-effective, high-yield route to making a future medicine is a creative process of discovery, not to be found in a single set of directions.

*Need for funding*
The manufacture of GMP drugs is not cheap. The total cost of one kilogram of MDMA from SPS is approximately $400,000, not including the cost of encapsulating and packaging our finished product. To give further perspective, the MDMA for a single treatment session costs $75, while the MDMA for three sessions (one course) costs $250. We recently raised about $150,000 for GMP MDMA from our 30th Anniversary and our Global Psychedelic Dinners last spring, but the remaining funds needed to purchase this MDMA are still significant. Before 2016 comes to a close, I hope you will support this crucial step in making MDMA a prescription medicine.

To learn more and help us purchase 1 kg of GMP MDMA, please visit maps.org/gmp.


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## indigoaura

A couple of things really stand out to me about that MAPS article.



> I was personally excited, too, since SPS’ final proposal had selected as a precursor a compound used in flavoring and perfumery, and I have a personal interest in fragrance chemistry.



What are they referencing here?



> I had expected that manufacturing a chemical that is over 100 years old to be a simple process, like making widgets. I thought that there was a set of directions that all pharmacologists and chemists would know that would produce MDMA. However, from our discussions and exchanges during the search, we learned that building a chemical is more akin to cooking or artwork: finding a cost-effective, high-yield route to making a future medicine is a creative process of discovery, not to be found in a single set of directions.



Doesn't this basically confirm a lot of what we have been discussing here? It implies that there are nuances and details to the process that go beyond simple step by step directions.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but one thing I recall reading from waaaaay before MAPS started this research study was that MDMA was old and the license was open. In other words, nobody could really profit from it due to MERCK having patented it so long ago. If MAPS develops a proprietary formula for developing GMP MDMA, can they patent that? Would that provide a path for making it profitable?


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## vash445

indigoaura said:


> A couple of things really stand out to me about that MAPS article.
> 
> 
> 
> What are they referencing here?
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't this basically confirm a lot of what we have been discussing here? It implies that there are nuances and details to the process that go beyond simple step by step directions.
> 
> Also, correct me if I am wrong, but one thing I recall reading from waaaaay before MAPS started this research study was that MDMA was old and the license was open. In other words, nobody could really profit from it due to MERCK having patented it so long ago. If MAPS develops a proprietary formula for developing GMP MDMA, can they patent that? Would that provide a path for making it profitable?



           I was personally excited, too, since SPS’ final proposal had selected as a precursor a compound used in flavoring and perfumery, and I have a personal interest in fragrance chemistry.         (piperonal as discussed earlier)


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## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> A couple of things really stand out to me about that MAPS article.
> What are they referencing here?


piperonal



> Doesn't this basically confirm a lot of what we have been discussing here? It implies that there are nuances and details to the process that go beyond simple step by step directions.


No.
GMP is writing down the steps so that each batch is the same allowing lower levels of scrutiny of each batch, in theory at least. MDMA is MDMA.


> Also, correct me if I am wrong, but one thing I recall reading from waaaaay before MAPS started this research study was that MDMA was old and the license was open. In other words, nobody could really profit from it due to MERCK having patented it so long ago. If MAPS develops a proprietary formula for developing GMP MDMA, can they patent that? Would that provide a path for making it profitable?


MAPS are not developing a proprietary formula, they might have eventually end up with an approved manufacturing process, and they would be the license holder if it ever got approved. there would be nothing stopping any generic company making their own version it provided they could show equivalence or non inferiority, which is really easy. The main positive outcome would be MDMA would be moved from Sch1 to Sch2 and that would be a great acheivement. They wouldn't have anything to patent.

There is no mechanism unless someone goes down the orphan condition route to get exclusivity for MDMA, the normal route of testing to a modern standard an old drug in exchange for exclusivity is not open here, because MDMA is not a previously approved drug and so would have to meet current testing standards.


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## indigoaura

> we learned that building a chemical is more akin to cooking or artwork



This does not seem like just writing down steps to me. They say it is the opposite of "a set of directions." I get that GMP is all about setting a standard that can be followed in the future, but it seems l like they are implying there is more to it than simple directions.


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## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> This does not seem like just writing down steps to me. They say it is the opposite of "a set of directions." I get that GMP is all about setting a standard that can be followed in the future, but it seems l like they are implying there is more to it than simple directions.



MAPS are telling a story and asking for money, so they have to make it a good story.

You might want to believe there is more to it than that, but there really isn't. Pharmaceutical drugs are routinely moved to other production facilities, with totally new people doing the work, and the file is the key to it all, and it is just a list of directions and instructions and control documents.  What SPS are did was writing down the set of directions they followed etc etc.

I tried to work out what MAPS were playing at ,
I think that SPS no longer make MDMA for MAPS and Onyx do now. MAPS it seems are trying to argue that their special GMP MDMA should be rescheduled out of schedule 1, so becoming the only MDMA that is available legally for human use, and by definition the only MDMA that has medicinal value. The strategy seems to be fuck everybody else with their normal MDMA, their normal MDMA can stay schedule 1,  whilst MAPS hold their special GMP MDMA in a perpetual phase III trial with others being able to get it for money through the expanded access scheme controlled by MAPS.

The therapeutic benefit of the drug is in danger of becoming so completely entangled with the woo and pseudoscience of psychotherapy and select MAPS psychotherapists. These psychotherapists and MAPS will then act as gatekeepers to the therapy. 

For those unsure whether MAPS are fit to be gatekeepers of a such a valuable theraputic should look up HALPERNGATE, where Doblin covered up for someone he knew to be a DEA informant involved the LSD missile silo case, an informant that tried to entrap multiple other individuals on behalf of the DEA. Doblin did offer to return donated money if donors thought that financing a DEA informant with their MAPS donations smelled a bit bad. The smell in Basel was really bad and it still lingers. In the spirit of forgiveness and redemption, you are forgiven, but it is not forgotten.


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## Hilopsilo

Indigo, since you have access to all these different samples, could you try doing multiple trials of each? I know its a waste of reagent, but it would help to eliminate the chance that the test result just varies just due to factors like amount of reagent used, amount of MDMA used, or other randomness. If one smokes, and the other doesn't, thats a whole lot more conclusive if it can be reproduced over and over on the same samples.


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## Hilopsilo

Some posts made on the thread I started on DNSTARS:

_"Shulgin tested most of the 3,4 regiosomers metioned earier. Dont think the 2,3 compounds were of much interest to him as I cant find any included in his work

so from Figure .1 the IUPAC chemical names and links to the PiHKAL entries

N,N-Dimethyl[2-(2H-1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)ethyl]amine ( N,N-Me-MDPEA)
image










						Read #115 MDPEA | PiHKAL · info
					

Book II of PiHKAL: A Chemical Love Story. Alexander & Ann Shulgin #115: MDPEA



					isomerdesign.com
				



(closest match in PiHKAL)

N-Ethyl[2-(2H-1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)ethyl]amine (N-Et-MDPEA)
image

https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=115 (closest match in PiHKAL)

The closest match to 1 and 2 above is the non branched MDPEA and according to Shulgin
image

SHULGINS COMMENTS ON EFFECTS OF SUBSTANCE
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 200 mg) “It was taken twice at different times in a dosage of 200 milligrams each time, without the slightest peripheral or central effects.”
(with 300 mg) “My tinnitus had disappeared. Probably nothing.” 

A quick test on the n-methly analogue confirmed that it wanst a ‘compound of interest"’

There is a family of compounds, to be discussed elsewhere, that is called the Muni-Metro (see under METHYL-J). The simplest member is this compound, MDPEA, and under its chemically acceptable synonym, homopiperonylamine, it can be called “H”. Following that code, then, the N -methyl homologue of MDPEA is METHYL-H, and it has been looked at, clinically, as an antitussive agent. N -METHYL-MDPEA, or METHYL-H, or N -methyl-3,4-methylenedioxyphenethylamine is effective in this role at dosages of about 30 milligrams, but I have read nothing that would suggest that there were any central effects. I have tried it at this level and have found a little tightness of the facial muscles, but there was nothing at all in the mental area.

N-Methyl[2-(2H-1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-1-methylethyl]amine (MDMA) https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=109
image

**SHULGINS COMMENTS ON EFFECTS OF SUBSTANCE**
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 100 mg) “MDMA intrigued me because everyone I asked, who had used it, answered the question, ‘What’s it like?’ in the same way: ‘I don’t know.’ ‘What happened?’ ‘Nothing.’ And now I understand those answers. I too think nothing happened. But something seemed changed. Before the ‘window’ opened completely, I had some somatic effects, a tingling sensation in the fingers and temples—a pleasant sensation, not distracting. However, just after that there was a slight nausea and dizziness similar to a little too much alcohol. All these details disappeared as I walked outside. My mood was light, happy, but with an underlying conviction that something significant was about to happen. There was a change in perspective both in the near visual field and in the distance. My usually poor vision was sharpened. I saw details in the distance that I could not normally see. After the peak experience had passed, my major state was one of deep relaxation. I felt that I could talk about deep or personal subjects with special clarity, and I experienced some of the feeling one has after the second martini, that one is discoursing brilliantly and with particularly acute analytical powers.”

(with 100 mg) “Beforehand, I was aware of a dull, uncaring tiredness that might have reflected too little sleep, and I took a modest level of MDMA to see if it might serve me as a stimulant. I napped for a half hour or so, and woke up definitely not improved. The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I‘d felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to. So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: ‘I shouldn’t have done that, oh yes, I shouldn’t have done that, oh no, I shouldn’t have done that; it was a mistake.’ Then I would start over again from the beginning. I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do. After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back. But so was my plain, ornery tiredness. MDMA does not work like Dexedrine.”

(with 120 mg) “I feel absolutely clean inside, and there is nothing but pure euphoria. I have never felt so great, or believed this to be possible. The cleanliness, clarity, and marvelous feeling of solid inner strength continued throughout the rest of the day, and evening, and through the next day. I am overcome by the profundity of the experience, and how much more powerful it was than previous experiences, for no apparent reason, other than a continually improving state of being. All the next day I felt like ‘a citizen of the universe’ rather than a citizen of the planet, completely disconnecting time and flowing easily from one activity to the next.”

(with 120 mg) “As the material came on I felt that I was being enveloped, and my attention had to be directed to it. I became quite fearful, and my face felt cold and ashen. I felt that I wanted to go back, but I knew there was no turning back. Then the fear started to leave me, and I could try taking little baby steps, like taking first steps after being reborn. The woodpile is so beautiful, about all the joy and beauty that I can stand. I am afraid to turn around and face the mountains, for fear they will overpower me. But I did look, and I am astounded. Everyone must get to experience a profound state like this. I feel totally peaceful. I have lived all my life to get here, and I feel I have come home. I am complete.”

(with 100 mg of the “ R ” isomer) “There were the slightest of effects noted at about an hour (a couple of paresthetic twinges) and then nothing at all.”

(with 160 mg of the “ R ” isomer) “A disturbance of baseline at about forty minutes and this lasts for about another hour. Everything is clear by the third hour.”

(with 200 mg of the “ R ” isomer) “A progression from an alert at thirty minutes to a soft and light intoxication that did not persist. This was a modest +, and I was at baseline in another hour.”

(with 60 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “The effects began developing in a smooth, friendly way at about a half-hour. My handwriting is OK but I am writing faster than usual. At the one hour point, I am quite certain that I could not drive, time is slowing down a bit, but I am mentally very active. My pupils are considerably dilated. The dropping is evident at two hours, and complete by the third hour. All afternoon I am peaceful and relaxed, but clear and alert, with no trace of physical residue at all. A very successful ++.”

(with 100 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “I feel the onset is slower than with the racemate. Physically, I am excited, and my pulse and blood pressure are quite elevated. This does not have the ‘fire’ of the racemate, nor the rush of the development in getting to the plateau.”

(with 120 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “A rapid development, and both writing and typing are impossible before the end of the first hour. Lying down with eyes closed eliminates all effects; the visual process is needed for any awareness of the drug’s effects. Some teeth clenching, but no nystagmus. Excellent sleep in the evening.”

2-(2H-1,3-Benzodioxol-5-yl)-1,1-dimethylethylamine (MDPH) https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=116
image
SHULGINS COMMENTS ON EFFECTS OF SUBSTANCE
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 120 mg) “The alert was felt in forty minutes and I was pretty much there at an hour and twenty. Quite like MDA, simple, with no lines, no colors, no motion, no fantasy. I am pleasantly stoned. The anorexia is real, as is the impotency. The drop from the 4th to the 6th hour was softened by a modest amount of wine, and this proved to be extremely intoxicating. My speech was slurred, and there was later amnesia for the rather aggressive and uninhibited behavior that occurred. I felt that there was more drug than alcohol contributing to this episode. My dream patterns were disturbingly unreal.”

(with 160 mg) “A very quiet development. There was no body load whatsoever. And no visual, and I saw it fading away all too soon. This might be a good promoter, like MDPR. I felt refreshed and relaxed on the following morning.”

(with 200 mg) “This has an inordinately foul taste. I felt slightly queasy. There were short daydreams which were quickly forgotten. I see no values that are worth the hints of physical problems, a little eye mismanagement and some clenching of teeth, and a tendency to sweat. I was able to sleep at only five hours into it, but there were a couple of darts. This is not as rewarding (stoning) as MDA, and has none of the magic of MDMA. It was a short-lived plus two.”

1-[(2H-1,3-Benzodioxol-5-yl)methyl]propylamine (BDB) https://isomerdesign.com/PiHKAL/read.php?domain=pk&id=94
image

SHULGINS COMMENTS ON EFFECTS OF SUBSTANCE
QUALITATIVE COMMENTS: (with 175 mg) “The first stirrings were evident in a half hour, pleasant feelings, and without any untoward body effects. Within another half hour I was at a plus 2 and there it leveled off. I would be reluctant to drive a car, but I could were it necessary. There were no visual distortions, no giddiness, no introspective urges, and no rise to a psychedelic intoxication of any significance. After about an hour and a half at this level, I gradually dropped back over another two hours. Afterwards I was quite fatigued and languorous.”

(with 200 mg and a 75 mg supplement) “A very strong climb, and a very good, interior feeling. It has some of the MDMA properties, but it is difficult to concentrate on any one point. There is a tendency to slide off. Excellent emotional affect; music is fine but not gripping. Someone had used the phrase, mental nystagmus, and there is something valid there. The supplement was taken at the 2 hour point when I was already aware of some dropping, and its action was noticed in about a half hour.”

(with 230 mg) “Physically, there was a bit of dry mouth but no teeth clenching, some nystagmus, maybe the slightest bit of dizziness, very anorexic, and it is not a decongestant. Mentally, it is extremely benign and pleasant, funny and good-humored. No visuals. Peaceful. Easy silences, easy talking. More stoning than MDMA.”

Some light afternoon reading and I’ll summerise the GREAT mans thoughts on the effects of the 4 compared to MDMA "

"What Did Shulgin Say?

(1&2) MDPEA -- –
“It was taken twice at different times in a dosage of 200 milligrams each time, without the slightest peripheral or central effects.”

N-methyl-MDPEA  – -- –
“I have read nothing that would suggest that there were any central effects. I have tried it at this level and have found a little tightness of the facial muscles, but there was nothing at all in the mental area.”

(3) MDMA (Ecstacy) ❤❤❤❤❤
“I am afraid to turn around and face the mountains, for fear they will overpower me. But I did look, and I am astounded. Everyone must get to experience a profound state like this. I feel totally peaceful. I have lived all my life to get here, and I feel I have come home. I am complete.”

(4) MDPH: ❤❤ – -- –
"Quite like MDA 1, simple, with no lines, no colors, no motion, no fantasy. I am pleasantly stoned… This is not as rewarding (stoning) as MDA 1, and has none of the magic of MDMA. It was a short-lived plus two.”

(5) BDB ❤❤❤ – --
“A very strong climb, and a very good, interior feeling. It has some of the MDMA properties… Mentally, it is extremely benign and pleasant, funny and good-humored. No visuals. Peaceful. Easy silences, easy talking. More stoning than MDMA.”

There are loads (90+) of other isobaric compounds that give similar mass spectra to MDMA and based on the small sample above, its quite likely that a good number of them have stimulant/psychoactive effects on the body.

If any of active isomers are cheaper or easier to make than MDMA, then its not too much of a stretch to think that the chemists would get creative now and again.
I know I would 

So the last line of defence is to work with @EC-International to see if they can use one of the GCMS test methods that separates and identifies many of them. I think EC currently uses UV-spectroscopy for the tests so it may cost more but, it would be quite a revelation if these isomers were regularly detected in DNM pills being sold as MDMA/Ecstasy."

https://community.dnstars.vip/t/var...pparently-not-observed-in-other-labs/26979/74 At the bottom, some good posts in here, a lot of chatter in between but whats new lol, talk of getting reference samples for Energy Control_


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## consciousness_

Hello all,

I just found this fantastic thread and thought I might add my two cents to jump into the discussion.

Since I am in my twenties, I cannot comment on whether there was some magical MDMA around before the turn of the century - but I found that even in the last few years the quality of MDMA dropped considerably. I have taken MDMA around 50 times at various dose levels (50mg - 700mg), at various settings (alone at home, with my girlfriend, in nightclubs and at day time festivals), in various forms (pills, powder, crystals ), in various combinations (with Ketamin, LSD, Cannabis, Alcohol) and through various routes of administration (oral, nasal or dissolved in water). Even though I would never neglect that tolerance, set and setting are critical in shaping the quality of the experience, I found that MDMA from a specific source always gave me the same experience (either they were constantly good or constantly bad), no matter the setting, the time passed between uses, the ROA, or whether I took them in combination with other drugs. Moreover, I have initiated quite a few people to MDMA and whenever I gave them a pill from what I considered decent MDMA, their heart would crack open, whereas if I gave them what people her would refer to as mehMDMA, I could see the disappointment in their eyes because the experience did not live up to what I have been ranting about.

Even though I haven't read through the whole thread yet, what I might add to the discussion is that in my (limited) experience, I don't see it as much as a black or white issue in terms of quality (even though I don't rule out the possibility that I might reassess this viewpoint in case I will ever get my hands on some MDMA that puts even my best experiences into perspective). I say this because I have had great MDMA experiences in which I felt nothing but unconditional love towards everything and everyone, pure psychological and physical bliss and the desire to hug and kiss the whole world. Those experiences were so powerful they literally changed my life and left me with an opened heart for weeks after the substance has long left my system.

Out of the dozens of types of pills and powders, the best one I had was a Super Mario pill that was mistakenly sold to me as 2CB in London - the experience was pure ecstasy and if I had to describe it, I would use similar language as people in this forum used to describe the magical MDMA from the old days. Unfortunately, I could not find it again and I found that if you purchase a desired pill from the Darknet, you just end up with some counterfeit in your hand (e.g. I also had a very good experiences with some SIM CARD pills I got in Amsterdam in 2017, but when a friend purchased them from the Darknet, they were nothing but garbage). However, in the last two years, I have not found anything that comes even close to those experiences I had a few years back - I took ridiculously high doses in the hope to get there again but the only thing they gave me was a messed up short term memory and horrible hangovers.

In any case, even if it might be true that there is nothing out there anymore that resembles the MDMA from the old days, there were still some pills and powders floating around that provided fantastic MDMA experiences. However, in the last two years, something has truly changed to the worse and no matter where I looked or whom I asked, I could not find any account of a compound capable of delivering what I experienced just a few years back.

Finding this threat has actually been quite emotional for me. MDMA has so radically transformed my life for the better that it is hard to overstate how much I owe to this chemical. Moreover, it makes me sad that not everyone has access to this experience, which truly does hold the potential to change the world for the better. My experiences over the past two years, however, have been so bad that I started to doubt whether all of that has actually ever happened. Because so many people say MDMA = MDMA, I have started to doubt whether I got delusional since I always claimed that there are differences in quality (even when the test results show the same content and purity), but everyone around me just kept calling me crazy and said I have overdone it etc. Finding this threat has brought back some hope that someday more people can experience what I consider the most amazing thing on earth: The experience of pure and unconditional love.


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## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> Indigo, since you have access to all these different samples, could you try doing multiple trials of each? I know its a waste of reagent, but it would help to eliminate the chance that the test result just varies just due to factors like amount of reagent used, amount of MDMA used, or other randomness. If one smokes, and the other doesn't, thats a whole lot more conclusive if it can be reproduced over and over on the same samples.



If indgio or people has both meh and magic.. I have  access to NMR proton cosy, HPLC etc. a polimeter I could REALLY get us some answers. Especially because my friend is knowledgeable about this thread and analysis is his thing.


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## psy997

I likely have both Meh and Magic. I just need to test this new batch of Magic


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## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> If indgio or people has both meh and magic.. I have  access to NMR proton cosy, HPLC etc. a polimeter I could REALLY get us some answers. Espically because my friend is knowledgeable about this thread



Where's @Le Junk ?


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## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> Where's @Le Junk ?



Ive messaged him no response


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## indigoaura

@vash445 All I have right now are multiple samples of meh. It is possible that this new sample is magic, but I just don't know. I will certainly donate some "meh" to science, but all I have right now is "meh."

@Hilopsilo I no longer have any of sample 3, but I can repeat testing on the other samples.


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## Hilopsilo

vash445 said:


> If indgio or people has both meh and magic.. I have  access to NMR proton cosy, HPLC etc. a polimeter I could REALLY get us some answers. Especially because my friend is knowledgeable about this thread and analysis is his thing.



Like I said, seriously  beating myself up about accidentally geocaching my samples. If we haven't sorted this all out by then, I'll have access to the samples mid August 2020... They're an 8 hour drive away deep within a fallen tree on private property lol

Reading shulgins notes on the R and S isomers at 100mg, I know we've basically ruled out stereoisomers, but I'll be damned if that doesn't sound like the problem... _"(with 100 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “I feel the onset is slower than with the racemate. Physically, I am excited, and my pulse and blood pressure are quite elevated. *This does not have the ‘fire’ of the racemate, nor the rush of the development in getting to the plateau*.” _Sounds like some damn MehDMA to me, and it doesn't sound like the R-isomer does all that much on its own at all, which is interesting since I was under the impression that S-isomer is more potent but I didn't think it was so much that a full dose of R does basically nothing according to him.


----------



## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> I know we've basically ruled out stereoisomers, but I'll be damned if that doesn't sound like the problem... _"(with 100 mg of the “ S ” isomer) “I feel the onset is slower than with the racemate. Physically, I am excited, and my pulse and blood pressure are quite elevated. *This does not have the ‘fire’ of the racemate, nor the rush of the development in getting to the plateau*.” _Sounds like some damn MehDMA to me, and it doesn't sound like the R-isomer does all that much on its own at all, which is interesting since I was under the impression that S-isomer is more potent but I didn't think it was so much that a full dose of R does basically nothing according to him.



Not that I'm against the stereoisomer theory and trying to disprove you simply because I believe otherwise, but IME Meh comes up just as quick as Magic, it just doesn't lead anywhere - as, I think, FUBAR always says.


----------



## vash445

psy997 said:


> Not that I'm against the stereoisomer theory and trying to disprove you simply because I believe otherwise, but IME Meh comes up just as quick as Magic, it just doesn't lead anywhere - as, I think, FUBAR always says.



I had a close friend self synth safrole batch via a wacker then AL/HG... which would pretty much disprove stereoisomer theory . unlike the PMK glyciate which is possible


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@vecktor I put in some filter paper, tried a control (no sample, acetone/ammonia system, non-baked plate) and then tried a sample on a baked plate (120 oC 45 mins), same system.  Results attached, raw and processed images for both.



It was colder today where I was doing it and the system and samples were retained from last time so I can't guarantee they aren't rubbish by now.  Tomorrow I'll try again, perhaps with a new sample, but definitely with the other system as I now have the ethyl acetate


----------



## indigoaura

> Sample 4 - Green first (quick) then black. Smoking but almost no bubbling.



Update to my previously posted Mandelin results. I obtained a further purified version of sample 4. Was told that it had gone through an acetone wash and was recrystallized. So, theoretically, it should be the same product as sample 4, but just cleaner. Visually, this sample is quite gorgeous. It looks like table salt. Very small, shiny, reflective crystals. Not powder, but the crystals are light and almost fluffy. Never seen product like this. The original version (sample 4) is also quite fluffy, but a bit more yellow in color. This stuff is white/clear. 

So, interestingly, the mandelin result was different.

No green on this one, and straight to black with no smoke and only minimal bubbling. 

Assuming that the supplier is not lying, this leads me to think that the green/smoking has to be from something that was washed or cleaned through the acetone wash and recrystallization process. 

So, this leaves me wondering which one I should take. Do I take the unwashed, less pure product that has the green/smoking mandlin result, or do I take the product that is ultra purified? Also, I only have the $ right now to send one off to international energy control. Which one?

On the marquis test, this purified sample turned very dark purple. The purple reaction was absolutely obvious. It did not go straight to black. Even after it sat for awhile, it was a deep, dark purple.


----------



## Borelli

SunriseChampion said:


> Sorry to interject here, but I'm pretty stoked about what I've found and wanted to share it here to up the hope factor.
> 
> I first did MDMA in 2004 in pill form and have since then considered it my favourite drug (I haven't used a great variety of drugs, so that valuation may not mean much).
> Unfortunately, around these parts, the quality of pills at that time was already in serious decline. I would estimate that only 30% of pills bought at that time were legit, most of the rest being meth.
> By 2009, the quality of pills around here could only be described as complete shite. By 2010, pills had completely disappeared. I haven't seen one since. It's all been sold as powder and it's all been rubbish. In fact, I've avoided it like the plague for at least the last 6 years.
> 
> Until last year when a friend of mine gave me a bit of hers at a music festival. Holy shit, wtf is this?! Could it be? It came in powder form and I insufflated a rather small bump (hard to estimate weight,  but I might wager it was ~50-75mg of powder). Ten minutes later I started feeling quite.....um....let's call it lovey. The entire experience was very reminiscent of my early MDMA experiences, though, obviously a weak effect, it was quite pleasant in that it couldn't possibly be overwhelming at that dose.
> 
> The friend who gave it to me was friends with the guy she got it from so she was able to hook up another friend who lives in western Canada for shipping out there.
> That friend has tested it to death with reagents and in vivo and says it's legit. About 8 months ago, the middle man decided to "retire" and hooked up our friend out west with the source. This source told our friend it was made using safrole, whatever that's worth (admittedly not much, anyone can say anything).
> My friend is convinced it is.
> 
> So, me and him are getting some fairly soon so I'm hoping to test it myself, both with every reagent money can buy but also by dosing a higher dose. Hopefully it's as legit as I remember it and am told it is because I'll be stuck with a rather decent amount of it (that's how the industry works).
> 
> I'll report back when I do.
> 
> I'm pretty stoked because the lack of proppa MDMA around these parts in the last decade + has been a bit depressing.



Let me know when you get some. I have access to two labs and can get you FTIR reads.


----------



## iwantmdma

So is there really no saffrole MDMA around anymore? I was excited to hear there is good pills coming back in the last couple of years but it sucks to hear these reports.
I wanted to try MDMA for the longest time and thought I'd finally have a chance.

I assume saffrole would be easy to get if you went overseas to Indonesia or whatever.
How hard is it to synth if you  only have basic chemistry knowledge? Just a small batch.

Yes that's how much I want to try real MDMA. I'd literally travel to another country  to get saffrole and try to synthesise it or find someone who knows how.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

there heaps of magic mdma around safrole is not the only magic stuff. I personally know most my magic mdma is always pmk based.


----------



## vash445

iwantmdma said:


> So is there really no saffrole MDMA around anymore? I was excited to hear there is good pills coming back in the last couple of years but it sucks to hear these reports.
> I wanted to try MDMA for the longest time and thought I'd finally have a chance.
> 
> I assume saffrole would be easy to get if you went overseas to Indonesia or whatever.
> How hard is it to synth if you  only have basic chemistry knowledge? Just a small batch.
> 
> Yes that's how much I want to try real MDMA. I'd literally travel to another country  to get saffrole and try to synthesise it or find someone who knows how.


There is safrole based MDMA.. just harder to get...


----------



## iwantmdma

Ok cool. Will look around the onion fields.



TripSitterNZ said:


> there heaps of magic mdma around safrole is not the only magic stuff. I personally know most my magic mdma is always pmk based.


I thought pmk-based is the one everyone's saying isn't as good? Or is it not certain yet?

Maybe I'll read more of this thread.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> Update to my previously posted Mandelin results. I obtained a further purified version of sample 4. Was told that it had gone through an acetone wash and was recrystallized. So, theoretically, it should be the same product as sample 4, but just cleaner. Visually, this sample is quite gorgeous. It looks like table salt. Very small, shiny, reflective crystals. Not powder, but the crystals are light and almost fluffy. Never seen product like this. The original version (sample 4) is also quite fluffy, but a bit more yellow in color. This stuff is white/clear.
> 
> So, interestingly, the mandelin result was different.
> 
> No green on this one, and straight to black with no smoke and only minimal bubbling.
> 
> Assuming that the supplier is not lying, this leads me to think that the green/smoking has to be from something that was washed or cleaned through the acetone wash and recrystallization process.
> 
> So, this leaves me wondering which one I should take. Do I take the unwashed, less pure product that has the green/smoking mandlin result, or do I take the product that is ultra purified? Also, I only have the $ right now to send one off to international energy control. Which one?
> 
> On the marquis test, this purified sample turned very dark purple. The purple reaction was absolutely obvious. It did not go straight to black. Even after it sat for awhile, it was a deep, dark purple.




No I thought it was something washed out as well... But remember maps MDMA  is 99.99% and has been made with safrole and piperonal... I know the maps stuff has went thru a column


----------



## psy997

iwantmdma said:


> Ok cool. Will look around the onion fields.
> 
> 
> I thought pmk-based is the one everyone's saying isn't as good? Or is it not certain yet?
> 
> Maybe I'll read more of this thread.



It's not that simple re: saffrole vs pmk based product. Both can be good, and both can be good - at least, that's what it seems like from our research here.

Be very wary of product from the darknet, most of it is shit.


----------



## vash445

iwantmdma said:


> So is there really no saffrole MDMA around anymore? I was excited to hear there is good pills coming back in the last couple of years but it sucks to hear these reports.
> I wanted to try MDMA for the longest time and thought I'd finally have a chance.
> 
> I assume saffrole would be easy to get if you went overseas to Indonesia or whatever.
> How hard is it to synth if you  only have basic chemistry knowledge? Just a small batch.
> 
> Yes that's how much I want to try real MDMA. I'd literally travel to another country  to get saffrole and try to synthesise it or find someone who knows how.



Theres safrole in the USA soo it's just all who has access and willing to buy it. I found a source with no restrictions but you gotta play a little hardball to find it


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 What do you mean when you say Maps product has gone through a column?


----------



## Hilopsilo

psy997 said:


> It's not that simple re: saffrole vs pmk based product. Both can be good, and both can be good - at least, that's what it seems like from our research here.
> 
> Be very wary of product from the darknet, most of it is shit.



I assume you mean "Both can be good, and both can be bad", good to point this out though, as far as we know there is no actual evidence that non-saffrole MDMA is the problem when in _theory _it should all be the same. We definitely need to avoid romanticizing safrole as the original, plant-based precursor. I see this a lot around the internet, I understand it and I feel the same inclination, but there isn't much to really back it up


----------



## Borelli

psy997 said:


> It's not that simple re: saffrole vs pmk based product. Both can be good, and both can be good - at least, that's what it seems like from our research here.
> 
> Be very wary of product from the darknet, most of it is shit.




DNM is shit? I'd assume most street dealers get their product from the DNM. Unless you know a clandestine chemist, I feel DNM (OG vendor with a good track record) is the best way to source quality MDMA. Curious to get your thoughts on why you feel DNM MDMA is shit.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @vash445 What do you mean when you say Maps product has gone through a column?



Column chromatography ...


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> No I thought it was something washed out as well... But remember maps MDMA  is 99.99% and has been made with safrole and piperonal... I know the maps stuff has went thru a column


really?  show me where MAPS or Onyx or SPS have said this. 

Looking at it properly there is no reason for MAPS to pursue >99.95% purity and actually 99.5% is pretty standard for pharmaceuticals of this class. So the 99.99% is drug dealer bullshit, and lets make no mistake MAPS are proposing to be the monopoly dealer of GMP MDMA.

the daily dose is less than 200mg so even the FDA recommended reporting levels would mean only things with a concentration of over 0.05% have to be reported but don't have to be identified, only things with an individual concentration over 0.1% have to be identified and only things with an individual concentration of greater than 0.15% have to be identified qualified and have set limits.

Distillation of the freebase followed by repeated recrystalization of the salt was the process done by Nichols, and the assay was considerably better than 99.6% with no significant impurities. The Swiss did something similar to get a similar purity

MAPS have shown themselves to be pretty naive in all of this, but having a GMP process that requires chromatography and over specifies the purity without justification is really really dumb or devious depending on what you think.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Borelli said:


> DNM is shit? I'd assume most street dealers get their product from the DNM. Unless you know a clandestine chemist, I feel DNM (OG vendor with a good track record) is the best way to source quality MDMA. Curious to get your thoughts on why you feel DNM MDMA is shit.


the people getting DNM stuff are usually dumb af teeenagers or socially inept people with no real life connections. The highest quality of drugs is not on the DN and will never be because smart people dont fuckwit that traceable shit where the DEA will be at your door within a few years. Older folk who have been in this game longer than those teens have been alive get it through international gangs who would cut your balls off and feed it to you before beheading you if you fucked with them aka the triads the russians and other european mafias who run major smuggling networks. Most people if they aint buying by the ounce will get be getting the super trash product that gets moved onto those obxnious kids who are just free money for proper dealers


----------



## psy997

Borelli said:


> DNM is shit? I'd assume most street dealers get their product from the DNM. Unless you know a clandestine chemist, I feel DNM (OG vendor with a good track record) is the best way to source quality MDMA. Curious to get your thoughts on why you feel DNM MDMA is shit.



Nope. Most the DNM product is likely Dutch superlab MehDMA, the majority of the amount that's not being MehDMA from other sources, and then the small leftover good.

At least one poster in this thread has been trying to track down MagicDMA on DNMs for a while and has had great difficulties finding good stuff.


----------



## G_Chem

Very interesting Indigo...  It is entirely possible the green coloration is related to impurities being washed away but my guess is the supplier has a batch or supplier of his own with cleaner looking crystal and most suppliers (well everyone) think that clearer crystals mean an acetone wash was performed.  Not sure he was the one to do it.

I say this because many of the samples are very pure which still test with the green coloration.  Idk if it’s related to purity/acetone washing but could be..

I’d personally wait 3 months from your last roll then try the supposed “unwashed” batch, I’ve got a good feeling about it too.

Also completely agree with TripSit, I get amazing product none of which has ever been sourced through DNM.  For me though it’s a community of people that seem to enjoy good product coupled with a discerning eye (and not to mention reagent testing on the spot.)

It’s also where you live..  It just seems like certain areas stay well stocked even in times of drought.  I grew up in the birthplace of the house/techno music where droughts aren’t easily accepted.

I’m sure there’s decent DNM product but it’s not going to be easy to find.  I think I’ve had of DNM a few times and it was always small batches of locally sourced product, not imported.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

TripSitterNZ said:


> the people getting DNM stuff are usually dumb af teeenagers or socially inept people with no real life connections.


Well I guess I'm socially inept then


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem 

Well, for better or worse, I will be rolling on NYE. Not an ideal wait, I agree. I really should have avoided the most recent experience. But, judging from the minimal-no comedown, I really don't think my brain took much of a hit from it. I feel 100% now.

I was wondering the same thing about the supplier. There are three different "tiers" of product. Basic, washed, and washed + recrystalized. I only have tier 1 and tier 3. Supplier seemed knowledgeable and willing to engage and answer questions. Of course, that does not really mean anything. It is totally possible that it is two totally different products, sourced from other locations.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Interesting... So is the first buy the “basic” and the second buy was the “washed” tier?

I need to buy new reagents and go through my stuff again.

And I feel you, just take it easy til then and take some magnesium l-threonate if you can get some.  I swear it potentiates if you take it up until a few days before.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem I have magnesium l-threonate, and I am planning to start taking it. The first product I got is the basic and the second one I got is the washed/recrystalized. I do not have any of the middle tier that was just washed.


----------



## G_Chem

Nice yea take it up until like a week before, see if it helps at all.  Very curious to hear your experiences with both over time when you can 

-GC


----------



## Jsolo1977

Greed everyone's using a ton of fillers and hardly any of the drug I bought 10 the other day for 25$ hell in 2000 that's what one cost.... and I had to eat all 10 and hardly got a buzz


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Jsolo1977 said:


> Greed everyone's using a ton of fillers and hardly any of the drug I bought 10 the other day for 25$ hell in 2000 that's what one cost.... and I had to eat all 10 and hardly got a buzz


you just got ripped off but 10 pills for 25 that is cheap as hell. Well my country has the most expensive drugs on earth so i am use to paying 35-70 a pill


----------



## Borelli

TripSitterNZ said:


> the people getting DNM stuff are usually dumb af teeenagers or socially inept people with no real life connections. The highest quality of drugs is not on the DN and will never be because smart people dont fuckwit that traceable shit where the DEA will be at your door within a few years. Older folk who have been in this game longer than those teens have been alive get it through international gangs who would cut your balls off and feed it to you before beheading you if you fucked with them aka the triads the russians and other european mafias who run major smuggling networks. Most people if they aint buying by the ounce will get be getting the super trash product that gets moved onto those obxnious kids who are just free money for proper dealers



Sounds scary lol

I'd advise you guys to take a look at vendors from Canada. Some of them have the safrole synthesized MDMA that seems to be sought out here. Some of the more popular vendors have reviews on Dread where users got their samples lab tested. Based on their reports, MDMA can back clean with no adulterants. Some of the samples contained cuts of mannitol (sugar alcohol) ranging from 5% - 20%.


----------



## Borelli

indigoaura said:


> @G_Chem
> 
> Well, for better or worse, I will be rolling on NYE. Not an ideal wait, I agree. I really should have avoided the most recent experience. But, judging from the minimal-no comedown, I really don't think my brain took much of a hit from it. I feel 100% now.
> 
> I was wondering the same thing about the supplier. There are three different "tiers" of product. Basic, washed, and washed + recrystalized. I only have tier 1 and tier 3. Supplier seemed knowledgeable and willing to engage and answer questions. Of course, that does not really mean anything. It is totally possible that it is two totally different products, sourced from other locations.



I think I know where you got this from 

Curious to know how the high is!


----------



## Hilopsilo

TripSitterNZ said:


> the people getting DNM stuff are usually dumb af teeenagers or socially inept people with no real life connections. The highest quality of drugs is not on the DN and will never be because smart people dont fuckwit that traceable shit where the DEA will be at your door within a few years. Older folk who have been in this game longer than those teens have been alive get it through international gangs who would cut your balls off and feed it to you before beheading you if you fucked with them aka the triads the russians and other european mafias who run major smuggling networks. Most people if they aint buying by the ounce will get be getting the super trash product that gets moved onto those obxnious kids who are just free money for proper dealers



Err, what? You guys and your gangs lol, this is a very, very paranoid view of DNMs. What makes you think these organized crime groups would be both aware of the difference in product we are discussing here, be willing to pay more for it as it surely costs more, willing to take more time to acquire it as its surely less common, and actually care about the difference when making money is their bottom line? Gangsters care faaaaaaaaar less about the quality of product they are passing on to customers than someone like Gamma Goblin.

I'm just not sure I see the reasoning behind the idea that gangs would make sure to have the good shit when only a handful of drug nerds on the internet seem to care/notice the difference; that they actively pick out the Magic MDMA for themselves, and quietly pass on the cheaper, meh stuff (that tests by anyone's reckoning, just the same) for the nerds to feed to the socially inept on DNMs. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're suggesting or putting words in your mouth

Last I browsed a DNM there was over 10,000 listings for MDMA (and you'd be in for a surprise if you think vendors are just selling ounces, try sorting by price->highest lol), theres no way you could possibly make such a generalization about it all nor the audience for it that warrants so many listings... Its pretty well accepted DNM's played a huge part in the return of MDMA after the drought. I haven't had product from DNM's since 2015, but it was fine. I'm sure a lot of what is on the markets is re-sale, and with so many listings people are surely going to go for the stuff that literally gets cheaper and cheaper every year, which I think is the problem-product.

MDMA or not, there are massively high quality drugs on DNMs and a ton of drugs get distributed through them, the DEA wouldn't be smashing them left and right if it weren't so



Borelli said:


> Sounds scary lol
> 
> I'd advise you guys to take a look at vendors from Canada. Some of them have the safrole synthesized MDMA that seems to be sought after here. Some of the more popular vendors have reviews on Dread where users got their samples lab tested. Based on their reports, MDMA can back clean with no adulterants. Some of the samples contained cuts of mannitol (sugar alcohol) ranging from 5% - 20%.



This is interesting, when I did a big sweep of DNM's browsing for anything that appeared like the really magic stuff I had in 2018, I found only a handful of listings going by appearance alone, a disproportionate amount of them were Canadian. MAnnitol has come up in samples I've brought to the FTIR in my city.

The most recent "magic" product I had was, if the information I have been given is accurate, synthesized in Canada.


----------



## Borelli

Hilopsilo said:


> Err, what? You guys and your gangs lol, this is a very, very paranoid view of DNMs. What makes you think these organized crime groups would be both aware of the difference in product we are discussing here, be willing to pay more for it as it surely costs more, willing to take more time to acquire it as its surely less common, and actually care about the difference when making money is their bottom line? Gangsters care faaaaaaaaar less about the quality of product they are passing on to customers than someone like Gamma Goblin.
> 
> I'm just not sure I see the reasoning behind the idea that gangs would make sure to have the good shit when only a handful of drug nerds on the internet seem to care/notice the difference; that they actively pick out the Magic MDMA for themselves, and quietly pass on the cheaper, meh stuff (that tests by anyone's reckoning, just the same) for the nerds to feed to the socially inept on DNMs. Please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're suggesting or putting words in your mouth
> 
> Last I browsed a DNM there was over 10,000 listings for MDMA (and you'd be in for a surprise if you think vendors are just selling ounces, try sorting by price->highest lol), theres no way you could possibly make such a generalization about it all nor the audience for it that warrants so many listings... Its pretty well accepted DNM's played a huge part in the return of MDMA after the drought. I haven't had product from DNM's since 2015, but it was fine. I'm sure a lot of what is on the markets is re-sale, and with so many listings people are surely going to go for the stuff that literally gets cheaper and cheaper every year, which I think is the problem-product.
> 
> MDMA or not, there are massively high quality drugs on DNMs and a ton of drugs get distributed through them, the DEA wouldn't be smashing them left and right if it weren't so
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting, when I did a big sweep of DNM's browsing for anything that appeared like the really magic stuff I had in 2018, I found only a handful of listings going by appearance alone, a disproportionate amount of them were Canadian. MAnnitol has come up in samples I've brought to the FTIR in my city.
> 
> The most recent "magic" product I had was, if the information I have been given is accurate, synthesized in Canada.




Yah, you just need to learn how to spot the right vendors - comes with experience. The DNM feedback system and Dread reviews can also help with that. Based on my limited research, I've found only two Canadian vendors who use Safrole. There's also another vendor that looks promising, but unfortunately, the minimum order is too high for my comfort levels and personal use. You have to be careful though as it's evident that there are some Canadian vendors who are just redistributing the Dutch Superlab MDMA.

GammaGoblin is an OG for LSD. Bless his/her heart. Hopefully one day, I can find the GammaGoblin of MDMA. Although, I really can't complain about the stuff that's coming out of Canada


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Gammagoblin is the worst LSD i have ever tried in my life its fucking dogshit impure crystal and underdosed to hell. Proper smuggling rings who are linked with major crimminals get the highest quality drugs and ship them over here for the biggest profits or make them here. LSD dnm is fucking trash the only pure crystal on there is cat in the hat everything is trash.

The lsd i get from gangs here are dosed up to 500-600 ug if they are crazy. On average one blotter will kick in harder than 4 voidrealms that i have tried here over the decade. DNMs are scams low quality drugs to make money while law enforcment sets up major traps. But for ya skinny drug adled white nerds DNM is a godsend so you dont get stood over while dealing with hardened criminals but your drugs are trash there.


----------



## Hilopsilo

I don't get the point of this sort of gatekeeping, if you don't get your drugs from gangs, they're shit? What? Drugs from gangs are notoriously impure. 

Besides, anyone selling drugs on a DNM could have certainly sourced them from a gang, especially if they hold so much power as you say over the drug trade, surely they're at the top?


----------



## G_Chem

I stand in the middle of this conversation, like I said I only buy in person but I also don’t know the DN well enough to speak on the product quality validity.

I will say during the drought, when the best pills in the entire world were right at my fingertips, it was rumored these pills were being produced by the Polish mafia.  Many of the guys who got these pills were rough gangster types, the first presses that came out I got through my GD friend (Gangster Disciples) but over time more and more hippy types had them.  The few times I came across quantities were off fairly rough dudes.

These were pills that old 90’s ravers were saying they were the best they’d had since the 90’s...

In the end I don’t know enough about DN product but Hilo if you say it was that difficult to find product that looked like clear clean shards on the web, I can only assume my IRL connections are better.  I’d say 70-80% of the time the product I get is nicely formed, clear or almost clear crystals.  The rest is product that may have slight amber color but still beautiful crystal definition and not this rock garbage I see constantly on Reddit.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

G_Chem said:


> I stand in the middle of this conversation, like I said I only buy in person but I also don’t know the DN well enough to speak on the product quality validity.
> 
> I will say during the drought, when the best pills in the entire world were right at my fingertips, it was rumored these pills were being produced by the Polish mafia.  Many of the guys who got these pills were rough gangster types, the first presses that came out I got through my GD friend (Gangster Disciples) but over time more and more hippy types had them.  The few times I came across quantities were off fairly rough dudes.
> 
> These were pills that old 90’s ravers were saying they were the best they’d had since the 90’s...
> 
> *In the end I don’t know enough about DN product but Hilo if you say it was that difficult to find product that looked like clear clean shards on the web, I can only assume my IRL connections are better.  I’d say 70-80% of the time the product I get is nicely formed, clear or almost clear crystals.  The rest is product that may have slight amber color but still beautiful crystal definition and not this rock garbage I see constantly on Reddit.*
> 
> -GC



Yes, when I would browse listings were majority dutch product, but thats because the majority of listings are Dutch or similar. Its an international market for dutch product to disperse, they're making a ton of it, its clearly an effective way to export that product. I'd have better luck if I looked for instance, domestic NA, but even that was filled lots of people reselling Dutch stuff domestically and taking they're wage out of the risk they took to import from the netherlands. Not that there isn't a variety of product, all shapes, colors and textures, I just had a very difficult time finding MDMA that basically looks like quartz (which is all I've got to go off of from my own experiences)

I'm not saying one or the other has the better drugs, I'm saying its pretty impossible to know simply due to feedback between the two; organized crime selling bulk MDMA that came from DNM, or MDMA sold on DNM that came from a gang? Or the gang is literally selling on the DNM themselves? I'm sure gang-affiliated drugs have ended up on markets one way or another. I'd be quite surprised if gangs have always just been far too skittish to be interested in such an easy way to be buy and sell bulk. The listings for 10+ kg of MDMA, if that ain't some gang shit


----------



## TripSitterNZ

The gangs i speak about aint your hood rat zero iq idiots these are pros who have everybody on their payroll from the government to the police to people inside the cia and dea.


----------



## SunriseChampion

Borelli said:


> Let me know when you get some. I have access to two labs and can get you FTIR reads.



You're in Southern Ontario?


The source I'm supposed to be getting it off has a pretty large minimum order, so I may as well ship it to be tested all over the place because I can't do it all and I sure as hell ain't reselling it.


----------



## Shady's Fox

*


TripSitterNZ said:



			The gangs i speak about aint your hood rat zero iq idiots these are pros who have everybody on their payroll from the government to the police to people inside the cia and dea.
		
Click to expand...

*

I didn't browse all the pages so dunno if anyone mentioned this but the majority of mdma comes from North, so those crystals breed and saw the winter first, metaphorically speakin. The US Scene is below, far way below, same as most of Europe. Gangs, first of all what gang is? It's something bad? a group of people who their purpose in life is just to serve the eye of Evil? Nah, call them street-smart. If they go out on the street they come back home with $, so not going to off-topic with this but as a fact let's this sink in. And the last thing I should add bout this ''gangs'' haha, when I think of how it sounds it already makes me.. yack, childish. So what you talkin bout those are cartels, who are another and another story, and what you seen in movies or maybe read on the internet isn't the reality, isn't that bad but don't go into fantasies, let reality take ur hand. Cartels usually and everyone will tell you this.. they don't sell MDMA, not even the smallest one, it's not profitable for cartels, if a dude would go to a friend maybe but for cartels? nhmm. They don't go useless but the thing is and as a bracket I don't think am the only one thinkin this, why did you suddenly brought up cartels, for what reason?...


----------



## Meth novice 79

I’m in a different country to most of you guys so it’s likely not the same but I wouldn’t touch mdma here EVER.
I don’t know what they’ve done to it, my ex said they water it down with meth these days but that doesn’t _really fit  with my mates experience on mdma early this year _

IT IMMEDIATELY put him into psychosis.
He was running around the streets naked, thought he was Spider-Man, told me via text that he had a 13 year old gf and they were in love (she didn’t exist) and began having full public conversations with her on fb even tho she obviously wasn’t replying 

It took me 3 months to get him back to normal, during that time he forgot how to spell his own name, began speaking in Arabic and expecting us to understand (he’s been in an English speaking country for 12 years) and couldn’t even take care of his basic needs.

Now, he can’t even smoke pot without those adverse affects returning.

I don’t think it’s what it used to be lol


----------



## SunriseChampion

^^I have no way of knowing for sure, but I'd wager that wasn't MDMA of any sort, shite quality or not.


----------



## Meth novice 79

SunriseChampion said:


> ^^I have no way of knowing for sure, but I'd wager that wasn't MDMA of any sort, shite quality or not.


Absolutely I agree with you.
He’s had mdma before with no problems, and was an experienced user with zero previous mental problems.

Beats me what it was but it was sold as mdma and scared the living daylights out of us all


----------



## SunriseChampion

Some sort of cathinone, perhaps?

Is he ok now?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Meth novice 79 said:


> Absolutely I agree with you.
> He’s had mdma before with no problems, and was an experienced user with zero previous mental problems.
> 
> Beats me what it was but it was sold as mdma and scared the living daylights out of us all


that is n-ethylpetntone trips full mania psychosis some crazy shit


----------



## Shady's Fox

Don't disgrace this beautiful drug as that, it's the most beautiful treasure in the world. Sex/music/activities/social situations all you don't and want. Doing mdma multiple days in a row it's pointless, so it wasn't Eve fault ( another name for MDMA ). This being said, if you don't know how to use it, if you don't know how to control yourself so your anxiety doesn't go through the roof, isn't drugs faults. It's yours, in his case, him. And MDMA nowadays isn't even washed with meth or speed, it's full of household killers...


----------



## Meth novice 79

TripSitterNZ said:


> that is n-ethylpetntone trips full mania psychosis some crazy shit


Thanks for that? Is it cheap and easy to source? Why would someone sell it as meth?
Pretty fkn dumb


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Meth novice 79 said:


> Thanks for that? Is it cheap and easy to source? Why would someone sell it as meth?
> Pretty fkn dumb


super cheap from china people sell it for massive profit cause they are cunts.


----------



## Meth novice 79

TripSitterNZ said:


> super cheap from china people sell it for massive profit cause they are cunts.



I thought that could be the case.
Jeez. Meths cheap enough these days without stooping to that level.


----------



## Shady's Fox

@Meth novice 79

I think we got a newbie in the drug world though isn't nothing to be ashamed, isn't a competition, haha, relax, lol. As green, weed, right, it's and I think 99% of the people who are dealers, not kids, will tell you this, it's mixed with oregano so it looks bigger on scale. In MDMA cases isn't the ''size/weight'' issue, it's the effect. Nowadays they use PMK a lot. Lab owners are pathological liars, they manipulate you so well that you actually belive that shit it's a - BIRD not a bottle - as e.g. At the end of the day as everyone else, they just want their money so they go home and give to their cousin some $ for wedding, pay the kindergarten, rent, have a little bit of fun with themselves here and there. Taste a bit of life. But even back then, the difference wasn't that huge with Eve, you wouldn't crunch your teeth, the euhopria will be a lot more natural. So to end this in a nice way, nowadays they are called ''Grains''


----------



## Meth novice 79

Co


Shady's Fox said:


> @Meth novice 79
> 
> I think we got a newbie in the drug world though isn't nothing to be ashamed, isn't a competition, haha, relax, lol. As green, weed, right, it's and I think 99% of the people who are dealers, not kids, will tell you this, it's mixed with oregano so it looks bigger on scale. In MDMA cases isn't the ''size/weight'' issue, it's the effect. Nowadays they use PMK a lot. Lab owners are pathological liars, they manipulate you so well that you actually belive that shit it's a - BIRD not a bottle - as e.g. At the end of the day as everyone else, they just want their money so they go home and give to their cousin some $ for wedding, pay the kindergarten, rent, have a little bit of fun with themselves here and there. Taste a bit of life. But even back then, the difference wasn't that huge with Eve, you wouldn't crunch your teeth, the euhopria will be a lot more natural. So to end this in a nice way, nowadays they are called ''Grains''



Competition?
Eh I’m just buzzing and enjoying talking about and hearing others stories. 
Apologies if I offend


----------



## Borelli

G_Chem said:


> I stand in the middle of this conversation, like I said I only buy in person but I also don’t know the DN well enough to speak on the product quality validity.
> 
> I will say during the drought, when the best pills in the entire world were right at my fingertips, it was rumored these pills were being produced by the Polish mafia.  Many of the guys who got these pills were rough gangster types, the first presses that came out I got through my GD friend (Gangster Disciples) but over time more and more hippy types had them.  The few times I came across quantities were off fairly rough dudes.
> 
> These were pills that old 90’s ravers were saying they were the best they’d had since the 90’s...
> 
> In the end I don’t know enough about DN product but Hilo if you say it was that difficult to find product that looked like clear clean shards on the web, I can only assume my IRL connections are better.  I’d say 70-80% of the time the product I get is nicely formed, clear or almost clear crystals.  The rest is product that may have slight amber color but still beautiful crystal definition and not this rock garbage I see constantly on Reddit.
> 
> -GC



Can you link me pictures of what you mean by "clear and beautiful crystal definition" vs the rocks you see on Reddit? Just curious to learn the difference.


----------



## No. 13 Baby

TripSitterNZ said:


> product i had this time was a bit of a root beer smell just light tan crystal that was more white when crushed up snorting kicked in within 15 minutes and a rush of love  and rolling lasted for a good duration.



Yeah I had that type my first 2 times, and were super beautiful experiences. Doubt I'll ever get to that level again.


----------



## G_Chem

So here are some links to “rocks” notice how they appear to be lots of small crystals molded into one solid mass.


Big rock off Dutch mdma from
      MDMA




just some pure rock from
      MDMA

Now more pure product will either be straight crystals like these pictures...


Dutch MDMA crystals - euphoric bliss from
      drugsarebeautiful






Or fused but still showing some growth patterns, like these...




Now the last two pictures of assumed fused product, I put up for a reason.  Notice how the first of those two pictures, the chunks seem more “blocky” with less sharp jagged pieces, more rounded overall.  Notice how the second picture appears more jagged, sharper edges.

It is my belief that these two represent the difference between a “meh” batch and a “magic” batch.  The few so-so batches I’ve come across have been blocky like that, and it’s my impression these are likely cut with something to give bigger better crystals.

Idk it takes time and experience to look at an MDMA crystal and make judgements.  For me personally it’s all about if I can find a few well defined crystals amongst the fused mass, some times you have to break a chunk to find them but other times they’re visible on the outside.  Also the clarity of the crystals is important too.

I go by smell too.  It should either be scentless or have the faintest hint of safrole.  Heavy smelling safrole product can be good too but I feel it’s a little heavy on the body for me.

-GC


----------



## vash445

.
My


Borelli said:


> Can you link me pictures of what you mean by "clear and beautiful crystal definition" vs the rocks you see on Reddit? Just curious to learn the difference.





G_Chem said:


> So here are some links to “rocks” notice how they appear to be lots of small crystals molded into one solid mass.
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/931vdt
> 
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/9n77i3
> 
> Now more pure product will either be straight crystals like these pictures...
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/drugsarebeautiful/comments/7wetmm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or fused but still showing some growth patterns, like these...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://mycotopia.net/uploads/monthly_07_2008/post-4254-138186264225.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now the last two pictures of assumed fused product, I put up for a reason.  Notice how the first of those two pictures, the chunks seem more “blocky” with less sharp jagged pieces, more rounded overall.  Notice how the second picture appears more jagged, sharper edges.
> 
> It is my belief that these two represent the difference between a “meh” batch and a “magic” batch.  The few so-so batches I’ve come across have been blocky like that, and it’s my impression these are likely cut with something to give bigger better crystals.
> 
> Idk it takes time and experience to look at an MDMA crystal and make judgements.  For me personally it’s all about if I can find a few well defined crystals amongst the fused mass, some times you have to break a chunk to find them but other times they’re visible on the outside.  Also the clarity of the crystals is important too.
> 
> I go by smell too.  It should either be scentless or have the faintest hint of safrole.  Heavy smelling safrole product can be good too but I feel it’s a little heavy on the body for me.
> 
> -GC




I recently had a meh batch that was smaller rocks at one point looked liked citrine non boulder like before acetone wash see image below, The product was then crushed, acetone washed and the product became much much lighter and was sent to me. The product was then sent as is for test in person and lab analysis..  ... Upon MALID and NMR 98% MDMA . But a virgin MDMA user did not have huge pulips or roll at 200mg. This came directly from lab, no cutting no nothing.  This I can promiss, the lab tester was not impressed as well and has since subjected the MDMA to more tests for answers. The lab operator is shocked but not surprised and is wondering what went wrong during the synthesis...


So now we are running HMQC. NOESY and TOCSY if HMQC comes up the way he thinks it will come up.

Stay tune for the answers to who killed this molly next.


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 That sounds very promising. So, you have a sample that is not producing expected effects in virgin users, with one lab result saying it is 98% pure MDMA, but you are running additional tests to gain more info? Sounds like exactly the process we need.


----------



## G_Chem

Here’s a Hive thread (one of many) which shows even back then they were having issues with product that felt right..





__





						Enable cookies
					





					the-hive.archive.erowid.org
				




-GC


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> Here’s a Hive thread (one of many) which shows even back then they were having issues with product that felt right..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enable cookies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the-hive.archive.erowid.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -GC




That was my guess, but that's 02 wacker... He did a BENZ wacker which does not have the issue... see rhodiums comment below  


​
I wonder how one could make people understand that they aren't getting a 15% lower yield, but rather a final product which is 1.18 times stronger (as they aren't consuming 15% of filler, which in the best of scenarios is "inert", and which might even be toxic?).

There is one thing which is good news though - the 85:15 ratio stated before is for the O2 Wacker, while most people here make use of the BenzoQuinone Wacker. I have references on my page for BQ Wackers which are *very* ketone-selective.​




The testers idea was D isomer vs our bodies processing the L isomer more... At this point we are leaving nothing to chance


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @vash445 That sounds very promising. So, you have a sample that is not producing expected effects in virgin users, with one lab result saying it is 98% pure MDMA, but you are running additional tests to gain more info? Sounds like exactly the process we need.




Yes exactly


----------



## andyturbo

Where could I get this purity tested? EC?

Smells very aniseedish.. hoping its saffarole bassed


----------



## vash445

andyturbo said:


> Where could I get this purity tested? EC?
> 
> Smells very aniseedish.. hoping its saffarole bassed
> View attachment 17055




EC can tell you percentages... But as we are finding out even WITH MORE ACCURATE equipment then NMR and what EC does. Purity is dubious at best if it will get you high


----------



## andyturbo

Vash do you have access to this equipment?


----------



## vash445

andyturbo said:


> Vash do you have access to this equipment?




Depends what you mean "access" It's someone  I know sorry, he is willing to take sample for testin. But we would rather have clear signs of meh and magic so we know what to start looking out for. And I would have to let him know something is incoming


----------



## andyturbo

Ok sweet as vash. I will concume shortly then send some..


----------



## vash445

andyturbo said:


> Ok sweet as vash. I will concume shortly then send some..




We are only accepting samples within the usa at this time due to OPSEC. Seems your from downunder sorry mate.


----------



## andyturbo

Understandable. I will have the sample available from an associate in the US. Give me a week or two


----------



## babooon87

I honestly do not think we can discern magicDMA from MehDMA by the appearance of the crystals. If we can in fact it would be the other way around. All the perfectly clear crystals I ever got were Meh stuff and the magic always ranged from off-white/tan to dark amber. But the impression I got from following this thread is thay people have had Meh and magic on the whole spectrum of appearances without any real constant to guide us other tham "maybe" the smell.


----------



## G_Chem

vash445 said:


> That was my guess, but that's 02 wacker... He did a BENZ wacker which does not have the issue... see rhodiums comment below
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> I wonder how one could make people understand that they aren't getting a 15% lower yield, but rather a final product which is 1.18 times stronger (as they aren't consuming 15% of filler, which in the best of scenarios is "inert", and which might even be toxic?).
> 
> There is one thing which is good news though - the 85:15 ratio stated before is for the O2 Wacker, while most people here make use of the BenzoQuinone Wacker. I have references on my page for BQ Wackers which are *very* ketone-selective.​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The testers idea was D isomer vs our bodies processing the L isomer more... At this point we are leaving nothing to chance



Oh I know I wasn’t referencing your post just that this has been an issue since long before now...  Probably just more prevalent now for whatever reason.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

vash445 said:


> We are only accepting samples within the usa at this time due to OPSEC. Seems your from downunder sorry mate.



I'll just mention it here in case others are interested, Vash why don't you try testing a sample of MDMA you have in your own possession to see if your methods/equipment/resources can actually detect the things we're looking before anyone even thinks about mailing anyone illegal drugs. 

Like I mentioned, that study is all we have to go off of, and 9/28 samples had contamination of one or more regioisiomers, thats like 1 in 3 so its not unlikely something you'd have access to locally would contain the stuff. At this point it doesn't matter who's sample it is, we just need to know if you can actually test for it, in practice. You've mentioned in this thread you have access to MDMA, it'd be a good starting point to see some results gleaned from analyzing a sample of your own. 

It'd be kinda pointless if someone goes through the risk/hassle/trust of mailing you something and turns out you can't find what we're looking for


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> I'll just mention it here in case others are interested, Vash why don't you try testing a sample of MDMA you have in your own possession to see if your methods/equipment/resources can actually detect the things we're looking before anyone even thinks about mailing anyone illegal drugs.
> 
> Like I mentioned, that study is all we have to go off of, and 9/28 samples had contamination of one or more regioisiomers, thats like 1 in 3 so its not unlikely something you'd have access to locally would contain the stuff. At this point it doesn't matter who's sample it is, we just need to know if you can actually test for it, in practice. You've mentioned in this thread you have access to MDMA, it'd be a good starting point to see some results gleaned from analyzing a sample of your own.
> 
> It'd be kinda pointless if someone goes through the risk/hassle/trust of mailing you something and turns out you can't find what we're looking for



you should read back earlier...


So now we are running HMQC. NOESY and TOCSY if HMQC comes up the way he thinks it will come up.


----------



## Hilopsilo

vash445 said:


> you should read back earlier...
> 
> 
> So now we are running HMQC. NOESY and TOCSY if HMQC comes up the way he thinks it will come up.



Could you refer me to which posts? I keep up with this thread pretty well but I musta missed it

That all sounds fantastic, but unfortunately i don't know what any of that is or whether it can test for what we're trying to look at specifically, or if the person operating it knows how, etc. Just might as well do a test run first


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> Could you refer me to which posts? I keep up with this thread pretty well but I musta missed it
> 
> That all sounds fantastic, but unfortunately i don't know what any of that is or whether it can test for what we're trying to look at specifically, or if the person operating it knows how, etc. Just might as well do a test run first




The one talking about crystals on 157. there is even a picture of the inactive product.


----------



## vash445

Update. can anyone on here read NMR?

So TOCSY is showing a 3 system spin system.

First the aromatic 6. There we see the lone system out on the end and isolated by adjectent oxygen.

What is causing the peak at 10ppm. He doesn't know in "english because I'm tired oof copying texts back and forth

Partials like protons and neutrons spin. If you look at each peak on the left of the first spectrum and starting at a peak move your finger right, almost like Brail, you find 3 distinct brail/nmr patterns meaning 3 spin systems, then look at the molecule. You have the single CH2 out on the end, the pi or aromatic ring, and then on the (usually) right side all atoms connected by single bonds.  Then if you know which peaks on the left belong to specific carbons you cas show that certain carbons are defiantly grouped together.  Doesn't give the structure by its self but with all the other spectra it would be sound.....

The main problem I'm having is that we don't match literature spectra.....none of them.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> Update. can anyone on here read NMR?
> 
> So TOCSY is showing a 3 system spin system.
> 
> First the aromatic 6. There we see the lone system out on the end and isolated by adjectent oxygen.
> 
> What is causing the peak at 10ppm. He doesn't know in "english because I'm tired oof copying texts back and forth
> 
> Partials like protons and neutrons spin. If you look at each peak on the left of the first spectrum and starting at a peak move your finger right, almost like Brail, you find 3 distinct brail/nmr patterns meaning 3 spin systems, then look at the molecule. You have the single CH2 out on the end, the pi or aromatic ring, and then on the (usually) right side all atoms connected by single bonds.  Then if you know which peaks on the left belong to specific carbons you cas show that certain carbons are defiantly grouped together.  Doesn't give the structure by its self but with all the other spectra it would be sound.....
> 
> The main problem I'm having is that we don't match literature spectra.....none of them.


TOCSY is not good for small molecules Look at the COSY spectra first to try make sense of it. I was never good at interpreting NMR during undergrad hell i know alot of older chemist aged 70+ who never bothered to learn NMR once it came around and still have not a clue on how to do it instead letting their undergrad or grad students do it for them lol.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Pretty sure Glubrahnum can "read" NMR, if by read you mean like interpret the results (if results are what you get from it? idk lol.) Back when I was going to send my samples to a proper NMR (not the university NMR that gave me skimpy results), he told me I should basically label the samples as "catacholamines" or something, so that they don't even know its MDMA, and ask for specific results for him to look at, so he certainly must know how to interpret the raw data into something useful

Also that "Dutch MDMA crystals - euphoric bliss" picture you posted G chem looks a lot like the really good stuff I've had, stuff even resembling that on markets stuff made up far less than 1% of the listings, rest looks like those other pictures. But at the same time, you could potentially wash any of it into those quartz crystals, right?


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> Pretty sure Glubrahnum can "read" NMR, if by read you mean like interpret the results (if results are what you get from it? idk lol.) Back when I was going to send my samples to a proper NMR (not the university NMR that gave me skimpy results), he told me I should basically label the samples as "catacholamines" or something, so that they don't even know its MDMA, and ask for specific results for him to look at, so he certainly must know how to interpret the raw data into something useful
> 
> Also that "Dutch MDMA crystals - euphoric bliss" picture you posted G chem looks a lot like the really good stuff I've had, stuff even resembling that on markets stuff made up far less than 1% of the listings, rest looks like those other pictures. But at the same time, you could potentially wash any of it into those quartz crystals, right?



I'll send him a pm


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> Update. can anyone on here read NMR?
> 
> So TOCSY is showing a 3 system spin system.
> 
> First the aromatic 6. There we see the lone system out on the end and isolated by adjectent oxygen.
> 
> What is causing the peak at 10ppm. He doesn't know in "english because I'm tired oof copying texts back and forth
> 
> Partials like protons and neutrons spin. If you look at each peak on the left of the first spectrum and starting at a peak move your finger right, almost like Brail, you find 3 distinct brail/nmr patterns meaning 3 spin systems, then look at the molecule. You have the single CH2 out on the end, the pi or aromatic ring, and then on the (usually) right side all atoms connected by single bonds.  Then if you know which peaks on the left belong to specific carbons you cas show that certain carbons are defiantly grouped together.  Doesn't give the structure by its self but with all the other spectra it would be sound.....
> 
> The main problem I'm having is that we don't match literature spectra.....none of them.


I can,

It looks to me that you, like others are cluelessly overcomplicating things for whatever reason. There is an old saying, All the gear no idea.

first get a 1H spectrum then 2 get a 13C spectrum THEN do 2d hetcor of some flavor. 

do it all in D6 DMSO so you see the amine protons. 

Post the spectrum, or the FID file or better post the capture folder then anyone with Mestrelab can process it.

otherwise you are wasting everyones time.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> I can,
> 
> It looks to me that you, like others are cluelessly overcomplicating things for whatever reason. There is an old saying, All the gear no idea.
> 
> first get a 1H spectrum then 2 get a 13C spectrum THEN do 2d hetcor of some flavor.
> 
> do it all in D6 DMSO so you see the amine protons.
> 
> Post the spectrum, or the FID file or better post the capture folder then anyone with Mestrelab can process it.
> 
> otherwise you are wasting everyones time.




I have done just that. Sadly, I'm just the guy with the inactive batch with,  luckily I know  someone with access to NMR and such and who is curious why it's inactive and popping up as mdma My background has always been synethsis of MDMA so i'm out in the dark on analytics.  I have also told him, to send all the folders/files so i could also upload when done on the next batch of testing you have suggested... Just in case I have figures for the last spectra but I think they are useless and not sure if in the right order he sent it either.

But I have told im and we are working on it.

the reason he ran
So now we are running HMQC. NOESY and TOCSY if HMQC comes up the way he thinks it will come up, is his idea was L vs D MDMA... but his theory was soon crushed...  I have told him to do your way next.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> I can,
> 
> It looks to me that you, like others are cluelessly overcomplicating things for whatever reason. There is an old saying, All the gear no idea.
> 
> first get a 1H spectrum then 2 get a 13C spectrum THEN do 2d hetcor of some flavor.
> 
> do it all in D6 DMSO so you see the amine protons.
> 
> Post the spectrum, or the FID file or better post the capture folder then anyone with Mestrelab can process it.
> 
> otherwise you are wasting everyones time.




Ill try and get the spectra.. He said he did all of that minus in DMSO. But he said it doesn't explain why there are 16 hydrogens in the spectra


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Firstly, your product looks extremely impure and the worst crystal i have laid my eyes on ever its no wonder the spectra will be completely different to anything in literature there will be literally a whole bunch of compounds including solvent still in those crystals. If it went into NMR i would expect to see a spectra will gives you zero information as to the mdma and just showing a whole bunch of peaks for everything contained in it. Whoever is making that seriously lacks basic chemistry lab techniques is the glassware dry and clean? Proper molar ratios used and patience in re-crystallization formation. Going into isomer ratios is not the issue here its the fact that these people should go to college or a community college and get some proper lab technique and chemistry knowledge. No reason crystals should come out looking amber yelllow or anything because all that is just mdp2p oil leftover in the final product.


----------



## Hilopsilo

vash445 said:


> I have done just that. Sadly, I'm just the guy with the inactive batch with,  luckily I know  someone with access to NMR and such and who is curious why it's inactive and popping up as mdma My background has always been synethsis of MDMA so i'm out in the dark on analytics.  I have also told him, to send all the folders/files so i could also upload when done on the next batch of testing you have suggested... Just in case I have figures for the last spectra but I think they are useless and not sure if in the right order he sent it either.



Hold up, entirely inactive and tests as MDMA? Or just doesnt quite produce the desired effects? Big difference

Make no mistake the "MehDMA" is certainly very active, just not in the "right" way


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> Hold up, entirely inactive and tests as MDMA? Or just doesnt quite produce the desired effects? Big difference
> 
> Make no mistake the "MehDMA" is certainly very active, just not in the "right" way



150mg I had teeth clenching... 250mg wasn't rolling. 400mg both me and her felt something


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> Firstly, your product looks extremely impure and the worst crystal i have laid my eyes on ever its no wonder the spectra will be completely different to anything in literature there will be literally a whole bunch of compounds including solvent still in those crystals. If it went into NMR i would expect to see a spectra will gives you zero information as to the mdma and just showing a whole bunch of peaks for everything contained in it. Whoever is making that seriously lacks basic chemistry lab techniques is the glassware dry and clean? Proper molar ratios used and patience in re-crystallization formation. Going into isomer ratios is not the issue here its the fact that these people should go to college or a community college and get some proper lab technique and chemistry knowledge. No reason crystals should come out looking amber yelllow or anything because all that is just mdp2p oil leftover in the final product.




Yes everything was dried, proper molar ratios. no recystalization was done just an acetone wash. TBH when crushed into a powder you wouldnt notice...the fact that both MALDI and NMR detected it as MDMA  is concerning. He wanted to test the D vs L because HIS theory was our bodies process one vs the other better. He was quickly proven wrong thou He thought this because MALDI and NMR said MDMA.... But now upon closer review he is looking for the error...


----------



## indigoaura

@Glubrahnum, we need your expertise!


----------



## Hilopsilo

psy997 said:


> It's not that simple re: saffrole vs pmk based product. Both can be good, and both can be good - at least, that's what it seems like from our research here.
> 
> Be very wary of product from the darknet, most of it is shit.



a revision of some of my thoughts on this, way to think about it rather than the precursor or method chosen being the culprit, maybe one synthesis route/precursor over another is easier to fuck up and create the Meh stuff (what I think is probably structural isomers). As in, (I'm making this up) the OG ways you could bend the rules/fuck up a reasonable amount and the product would still come out good, whereas other routes/precursors a slight misstep in the process results in a product that is unknowingly no good. Both ways, or any way, can produce the real McCoy in theory and in that sense MDMA = MDMA still holds true (and regardless of what lies at the bottom of all this, I think that 'll technically still be true), but one route might have a higher propensity to create structural isomers as byproducts by fudging a particularly touchy step.


----------



## psychetool

The only thing that's wrong is that it's NOT ACTUALLY MDMA. Fucking bath salt bullshit.


----------



## vash445

psychetool said:


> The only thing that's wrong is that it's NOT ACTUALLY MDMA. Fucking bath salt bullshit.



This was made FROM safrole... This is not bath salts this is "private lab" small batch MDMA, mariqus comes up purple. Something is def going wrong either making mdp2p.. or the animation process.. My guess something wrong in the last step... If it WAS bath salts, we would have answer. but strustal these isomosers/missynth prodct as so close to the real mcoy, MMM GC/MS and NMR and MALDI is fooled on a regular basis


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> a revision of some of my thoughts on this, way to think about it rather than the precursor or method chosen being the culprit, maybe one synthesis route/precursor over another is easier to fuck up and create the Meh stuff (what I think is probably structural isomers). As in, (I'm making this up) the OG ways you could bend the rules/fuck up a reasonable amount and the product would still come out good, whereas other routes/precursors a slight misstep in the process results in a product that is unknowingly no good. Both ways, or any way, can produce the real McCoy in theory and in that sense MDMA = MDMA still holds true (and regardless of what lies at the bottom of all this, I think that 'll technically still be true), but one route might have a higher propensity to create structural isomers as byproducts by fudging a particularly touchy step.




This is most certainly the issue. BUT it seems the dutch use catalytic hydrogenation, and the american use AL/HG but clearly  both have the chance of making meh product


----------



## psychetool

I don't know shit about chemistry unfortunately, but I can tell real MDMA from bath salt bullshit 10/10. It's real sad to hear they can beat the marquis test.....


----------



## vash445

psychetool said:


> I don't know shit about chemistry unfortunately, but I can tell real MDMA from bath salt bullshit 10/10. It's real sad to hear they can beat the marquis test.....




It's not bathsalts OMFG...

It's MDMA that is being Mis synth, but because it comes from MDMA precoursers and is running a reaction to Make MDMA it's mdma almost...

Bathsalts by like Def are Cathinone usually... Cathinone differs from many other amphetamines in that it has a ketone functional group. If you look its a double bonded oxygen.
Look at the difference between meth and methcathinone. Look at the double bonded oxygens and there is your "bathsalts".

Also DONT diss these "bath salts", one of MY mdma routes starts either from BK-MDMA (methylone)  precursors. Or from 100% scratch. and because it's a double bonded oxygen you can cleave it to make MDMA.   Friedel Crafts with 2-chloro-3-methyl-1R-aziridine (which causes spontaneous ring-opening into the isopropylamine). Switching from MDRA to 5-aminopropylbenzofuran or 5-aminopropylindane/indole. Dont  diss these these bathsalts cuz someone can EASILY make real MDMA from it


----------



## vash445

psychetool said:


> I don't know shit about chemistry unfortunately, but I can tell real MDMA from bath salt bullshit 10/10. It's real sad to hear they can beat the marquis test.....




It appears to not only beat marquis.. But NMR, GC/MS and MANY other tests MUCH more accurate then marquis. Its is the some molecular weight as MDMA


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> I can,
> 
> It looks to me that you, like others are cluelessly overcomplicating things for whatever reason. There is an old saying, All the gear no idea.
> 
> first get a 1H spectrum then 2 get a 13C spectrum THEN do 2d hetcor of some flavor.
> 
> do it all in D6 DMSO so you see the amine protons.
> 
> Post the spectrum, or the FID file or better post the capture folder then anyone with Mestrelab can process it.
> 
> otherwise you are wasting everyones time.



4NMR .
He said he says he sees a broad peaks at 9 which can only be the amide which means the C=O wasnt touched


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> 4NMR .
> He said he says he sees a broad peaks at 9 which can only be the amide which means the C=O wasnt touched


quick glance suggests that proton  is _H_C(O)-N in N-formyl, showing strong broadening hinting it is near a nitrogen.

is this a definitive Meh sample?


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> quick glance suggests that proton  is _H_C(O)-N in N-formyl, showing strong broadening hinting it is near a nitrogen.
> 
> is this a definitive Meh sample?



Definitely meh virgin did not have pupils go big. LARGE amounts were needed to feel anything


----------



## TripSitterNZ

What precousers were used in the sample. If its coming from the BMK route alot of dutch labs have been using this route in recent years with major 500 tons of it seized last year in the netherlands. If it is then im pretty sure all the BMK routes are making MEH mdma cause i know forsure my mdma is made from pmk glycidate and its always magic loving and healing.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> What precousers were used in the sample. If its coming from the BMK route alot of dutch labs have been using this route in recent years with major 500 tons of it seized last year in the netherlands. If it is then im pretty sure all the BMK routes are making MEH mdma cause i know forsure my mdma is made from pmk glycidate and its always magic loving and healing.



safrole to MDP2P...

I have never heard of using BMK to get to MDMA.. BMK leads to meth or amph... you are missing a MD ring with BMK

_Benzyl methyl ketone_, synonymous of phenylacetone

Synthetic drugs can be produced using a number of different production techniques, involving a range of different chemical precursor substances. The precursors needed to make amphetamine and methamphetamine overlap significantly, but are distinct from the precursors used to make MDMA. In Europe, and indeed globally, amphetamine is most frequently synthesised from benzyl methyl ketone (BMK) (). To make methamphetamine, although BMK may also be used, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine are more common. MDMA is primarily produced from piperonyl methyl ketone (PMK), which can also be produced from safrole (or oils rich in safrole) and piperonal (see Figure 6.2).







						Drug markets | www.emcdda.europa.eu
					






					www.emcdda.europa.eu


----------



## sh1vambuDancer

woweeee checking out the thread here and reading what is going on after years out of the drug scene, 
and I dont know even _half _as much chemistry, as most of the people on the last page (proper boffins!) 
BUT I could decipher and innerstand if I read it, SURE, 

And what I can glean from it - this "MDMA" being hard to discern even using GC/MS? :O oh shittt! no wonder people are raving about it trying to fix it, a chemist nerd's wet dream. 

THis just goes to show, fuck synthetic drugs. lol seriously, they're more trouble than they're worth. sex and dmt and mushrooms will suffice. heehee


----------



## vash445

sh1vambuDancer said:


> woweeee checking out the thread here and reading what is going on after years out of the drug scene,
> and I dont know even _half _as much chemistry, as most of the people on the last page (proper boffins!)
> BUT I could decipher and innerstand if I read it, SURE,
> 
> And what I can glean from it - this "MDMA" being hard to discern even using GC/MS? :O oh shittt! no wonder people are raving about it trying to fix it, a chemist nerd's wet dream.
> 
> THis just goes to show, fuck synthetic drugs. lol seriously, they're more trouble than they're worth. sex and dmt and mushrooms will suffice. heehee


this "MDMA" being hard to discern even using GC/MS

Yes and NMR, and MALDI mass spectrometry, _matrix-assisted laser desorption/ionization_ 

My friend had to retest and look WITH NMR because even he was fooled...


----------



## indigoaura

So, @vash445, at this point, your friend can see an obvious difference between a standard MDMA result and this product, but there are no known matches in the database to identify what this product is?


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> So, @vash445, at this point, your friend can see an obvious difference between a standard MDMA result and this product, but there are no known matches in the database to identify what this product is?



@vecktor has figured it out... at least from this batch
quick glance suggests that proton is _H_C(O)-N in N-formyl, showing strong broadening hinting it is near a nitrogen.


My friends guess is


> He said he says he sees a broad peaks at 9 which can only be the amide which means the C=O wasnt touched which matches up to what Vecktor said, "_H_C(O)-N"


----------



## vash445

SO what we know so far precursor doesn't matter so much as skill of chemist. A product may say MDMA but might not have the graphs to properly identify it so it just says MDMA good enough... At this point we need a couple of meh and magic to really discern but this blows everything wide open...

This product reacts to MMM. and turns the appropriate black color and can pretty much discern all tests...


----------



## indigoaura

@vecktor @vash445 So, is _H_C(O)-N in N-formyl the unidentified compound that is masquerading as MDMA in this sample, or it is just one component of the unidentified compound?


----------



## indigoaura

Also, I just want to clearly understand what this testing is revealing. Is there any MDMA in the sample at all, or is it ALL a botched product? Is the issue a contaminant or is the issue that the "MDMA" is messed up?


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> Also, I just want to clearly understand what this testing is revealing. Is there any MDMA in the sample at all, or is it ALL a botched product? Is the issue a contaminant or is the issue that the "MDMA" is messed up?



I believe it's all botched product but tests as MDMA acetone wash doesn't seem to clear the product.. not sure about a column


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @vecktor @vash445 So, is _H_C(O)-N in N-formyl the unidentified compound that is masquerading as MDMA in this sample, or it is just one component of the unidentified compound?



_H_C(O)-N in N-formyl makes little sense to me I need the structure drawn out...


----------



## TripSitterNZ

mdp2p still leftover in the product which is probably most of it while still having some mdma. It means the reaction failed and you have very little mdma which explains why you would of needed 400 mg + in the product to feel anything and why it still reacts to reagant testing,. This is why recrystalzlion is important in reactions to get only the product to crash out.


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> @vecktor @vash445 So, is _H_C(O)-N in N-formyl the unidentified compound that is masquerading as MDMA in this sample, or it is just one component of the unidentified compound?


I will look at this properly when I get the time, I can assign almost all the peaks in the spectrum,  it looks like 2 compounds in a mixture, but I can't say for certain without crosschecking.
please be patient.whilst this is quite a fascinating puzzle I also have a day job.

V


----------



## vecktor

TripSitterNZ said:


> It means you have mdp2p still leftover in the product which is probably most of it while still having some mdma. It means the reaction failed and you have very little mdma which explains why you would of needed 400 mg + in the product to feel anything and why it still reacts to reagant testing,


no there are no suitable protons in MDP2P


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> mdp2p still leftover in the product which is probably most of it while still having some mdma. It means the reaction failed and you have very little mdma which explains why you would of needed 400 mg + in the product to feel anything and why it still reacts to reagant testing,. This is why recrystalzlion is important in reactions to get only the product to crash out.




I def felt product at 150.. i got Bruxism  clech at that ammount... So i def felt something at lower doses


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> _H_C(O)-N in N-formyl makes little sense to me I need the structure drawn out...


try H-C(=O)-N


----------



## TripSitterNZ

This article would be interesting to read http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/314/1/346
*Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters*

if you know somebody with a college proxy free acesss to read.


----------



## vash445

@vecktor    That helps ALOT. it does make more sense thou I see the bonds better and stuff.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> This article would be interesting to read http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/314/1/346
> *Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters*
> 
> if you know somebody with a college proxy free acesss to read.


That easy scihub should have it with the DOI...



			Sci-Hub | Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, 314(1), 346–354 | 10.1124/jpet.105.084426


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ I understand our theories etc up until this point. I personally submitted a sample to ecstasydata some time ago with 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol  as a contaminant. I am specifically wondering about this sample that @vash445 's friend has tested and @vecktor is reviewing.


----------



## indigoaura

Whoa whoa whoa...

@TripSitterNZ I just read the abstract for the article you posted. If I am reading the abstract correctly, it seems to confirm that some synthesis byproducts inhibit MDMA. Mentions a similar synthesis byproduct to the one found in my MehDMA sample that I sent into E Data.

"Two of the eight compounds, 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine (*12*) and _N_-formyl-1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine (*13*) had uptake inhibitory potencies with IC50 values in the low micromolar range similar to MDMA."

"*12* and *13* inhibited release induced by MDMA, and the concentration dependence of this effect correlated with their uptake inhibitory potency at the various transporters."

My sample: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2644


----------



## SunriseChampion

Well that IS interesting indeed.


----------



## indigoaura

> Blocking Action of Compounds 12 and 13 on MDMAInduced Release. If added 4 min before MDMA to the superfusion buffer, 12 and 13 concentration-dependently suppressed the release induced by 3 M MDMA in NET-, SERT-, and DAT-expressing cells (Figs. 7 and 8). Compound 12 (100 M) suppressed MDMA-induced release mediated by the DAT to levels slightly beneath basal efflux (Figs. 7C and 8C). The potency of 13 in its inhibitory action on MDMAinduced release was in agreement with its potency in uptake inhibition experiments: 13 suppressed MDMA-induced release mediated by the SERT more potently than NET-mediated release, whereas MDMA-induced release mediated by the DAT was only weakly inhibited in concentrations up to 100 M (Fig. 8C)


 (350).


----------



## G_Chem

Note that those two compounds come from the Leuckart reaction which was most often used in the 90’s.  Those impurities aren’t likely to be found today.

***UPDATE AS OF March 12 2020.  Disregard the user/troll Vash445 in future posts and do NOT send him money.***

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I noticed that as well @G_Chem. Do you think 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol could have similar results? That is the contaminant found in my sample.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

other unknown impurties could be suppressing the action as to what these are a mystery but this study has confirmed that some by products can inhibit the action which thus gives a logical reason for what is going on. These mass productions would have decent amounts of impurities present with other inhibiting actions giving people various weaker forms of mdma and maybe why they dose pills with alot to try counter balance the inhibiton. Pretty much money and greed has taken over the production and lazy synthesis gives the meh product.


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> Note that those two compounds come from the Leuckart reaction which was most often used in the 90’s.  Those impurities aren’t likely to be found today.
> 
> -GC


+

Yes and no @indigoaura * and GC *.... See what @vecktor wrote? about my wacker AL/HG MDMA...
H-C(=O)-N   means  (hydrogen single bonded to carbon, carbon and oxygen double bonded, oxygen and nitrogen single bonded).... see the pattern? There is only so much I can discern where to place it on the tail thou if it's making sense.

See those molecules @TripSitterNZ accidentally  posted. I spy with my little eye H-C(=O)-N bonded on those tails.. it might not be BONDED 100% how I think but man does it give me a MUCH better idea how it's structed.... But I mean the way I see that bond as he wrote it.. look? This "MDMA that was NMR tested"  came from a MEOH benz wacker, AL/HG... but look similar  H-C(=O)-N who knew I think we really are onto something


----------



## babooon87

Really exciting watching how this thread unfolds since the beginning. The team effort of many smart brains coming together with creativity and out of the box thinking is really impressive. Keep up the good work guys !

It's funny because as ludicrous as the whole '' MDMA changed'' thing could look initially, I think I have rarely seen so much consensus in a forum discussion ever.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> other unknown impurties could be suppressing the action as to what these are a mystery but this study has confirmed that some by products can inhibit the action which thus gives a logical reason for what is going on. These mass productions would have decent amounts of impurities present with other inhibiting actions giving people various weaker forms of mdma and maybe why they dose pills with alot to try counter balance the inhibiton. Pretty much money and greed has taken over the production and lazy synthesis gives the meh product.



What is "lazy" acetone wash and crystallization might not be enough... a Column makes sense but you would have to know the containment to make it easier.


----------



## Hilopsilo

My DEFINITELY Meh sample that went to the NMR-lite came back as containing MDP2P: Reposting those results for reference, "Brown" being the stuff that ~30 people were disappointed by including myself in a single night, "Colourless" being the stuff that I had 2 nights later that felt like my first time rolling (and more), same 100mg dose for me both nights.

_"1) Brown
qNMR: 85% MDMA 
MDP2P present in GC-MS analysis

2) Colourless
qNMR: 91% MDMA
No other compounds present"_

Looks like we've got solid leads on both hypotheses!! very exciting times. Want to thank everyone who is sharing their knowledge/resources of chemistry for this cause, I really don't know jackshit about any of it, but its incredibly fascinating

It could be both things, leftover precursor might be indicative of structural isomers being present in the MDMA portions of the samples. If, leftover precursor = sloppy synth, and the other paper said, sloppy synth = structural isomers, sounds like a shady trio that would hang out together...


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> What is "lazy" acetone wash and crystallization might not be enough... a Column makes sense but you would have to know the containment to make it easier.


i just been lazy in the general attention to detail while weighing everything out to the extact demical calucated as per the molar ratios required. I was like this in undergrad chemistry. Very important to have a very accurate balance when doing things.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> i just been lazy in the general attention to detail while weighing everything out to the extact demical calucated as per the molar ratios required. I was like this in undergrad chemistry. Very important to have a very accurate balance when doing things.



Seems like temp varations are the issue in this batch, molar ratio was calculated within 10mg... For scales sake


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> I noticed that as well @G_Chem. Do you think 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol could have similar results? That is the contaminant found in my sample.



Most definitely, that research article only plays with 12 different impurities when there’s hundreds of potentials.  The fact they found two highly active ones out of 12 gives me the impression there’s plenty more out there.

-GC


----------



## psy997

So exciting! Wooooo!


----------



## vash445

When @vecktor tells us the containment. We will try and run a column and see if we can separate it and if it makes the product much  more active


----------



## Goodwalt

Man, these last few pages got me rolling harder than any mdma!! hahaha. Keep it up guys, we're rooting for you!!


----------



## vash445

Hummm. Mdp2p glyciate is the ester carbonyl group no? If these carbonyl impurities are they key it could make sense why we have sooooo much meh now. Because any little impurities causes the carbonyl impurities which makes sense why we see it more now in pmk glyciate batches or a raise or uptick in generals. In fact mdp2p is a carbonyl.. so that makes 100% what is lining up with just plain old mdp2p causing meh.

What do we know about carbonyl group effecting MDMA receptors?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> Hummm. Mdp2p glyciate is the ester carbonyl group no? If these carbonyl impurities are they key it could make sense why we have sooooo much meh now. Because any little impurities causes the carbonyl impurities which makes sense why we see it more now in pmk glyciate batches or a raise or uptick in generals. In fact mdp2p is a carbonyl.. so that makes 100% what is lining up with just plain old mdp2p causing meh.
> 
> What do we know about carbonyl group effecting MDMA receptors?


Not a whole alot of information out there expect that study looking at the effects on the receptors. Not something that would attract funding aswell. Maybe try find a way to contact the papers author with questions?


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> Not a whole alot of information out there expect that study looking at the effects on the receptors. Not something that would attract funding aswell. Maybe try find a way to contact the papers author with questions?



Actually there's A whole lot. We know the most common are 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 .SO it's how do carbonyl effect vs amine vs amide vs... at 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 in general.. not just mdma...

Also...


MDMA acts primarily as a presynaptic releasing agent of serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine, which arises from its activity at trace amine-associated receptor 1 (TAAR1) and vesicular monoamine transporter 2 (VMAT2).[12][89][90][91] MDMA is also a monoamine transporter substrate (i.e., a substrate for DAT, NET, and SERT), so it enters monoamine neurons via these neuronal membrane transport proteins;[89] by acting as a monoamine transporter substrate, MDMA produces competitive reuptake inhibition at the neuronal membrane transporters (i.e., it competes with endogenous monoamines for reuptake).[89][92] MDMA inhibits both vesicular monoamine transporters (VMATs), the second of which (VMAT2) is highly expressed within monoamine neurons at vesicular membranes.[90] Once inside a monoamine neuron, MDMA acts as a VMAT2 inhibitor and a TAAR1 agonist.[90][91]

Inhibition of VMAT2 by MDMA results in increased concentrations of the associated neurotransmitter (serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine) in the cytosol of a monoamine neuron.[90][93] Activation of TAAR1 by MDMA triggers protein kinase A and protein kinase C signaling events which then phosphorylates the associated monoamine transporters – DAT, NET, or SERT – of the neuron.[89][91] In turn, these phosphorylated monoamine transporters either reverse transport direction – i.e., move neurotransmitters from the cytosol to the synaptic cleft – or withdraw into the neuron, respectively producing neurotransmitter efflux and noncompetitive reuptake inhibition at the neuronal membrane transporters.[89][90] The actions increase the synaptic concentrations of monoamine neurotransmitters.[94] MDMA has ten times more affinity for uptake at serotonin transporters compared to dopamine and norepinephrine transporters and consequently has mainly serotonergic effects.[95]:1080

In summary, MDMA enters monoamine neurons by acting as a monoamine transporter substrate.[89] MDMA activity at VMAT2 moves neurotransmitters out from synaptic vesicles and into the cytosol;[90] MDMA activity at TAAR1 moves neurotransmitters out of the cytosol and into the synaptic cleft.[89][90][91]

MDMA also has weak agonist activity at postsynaptic serotonin receptors 5-HT1 and 5-HT2 receptors, and its more efficacious metabolite MDA likely augments this action.[96][97][98][99] Cortisol, prolactin, and oxytocin quantities in serum are increased by MDMA.[3]

MDMA is a ligand at both sigma receptor subtypes, though its efficacies at the receptors have not yet been elucidated

The question is how do these receptors above effect with carbonyl... your not thinking how I am


----------



## nznity

Hilopsilo said:


> My DEFINITELY Meh sample that went to the NMR-lite came back as containing MDP2P: Reposting those results for reference, "Brown" being the stuff that ~30 people were disappointed by including myself in a single night, "Colourless" being the stuff that I had 2 nights later that felt like my first time rolling (and more), same 100mg dose for me both nights.
> 
> _"1) Brown
> qNMR: 85% MDMA
> MDP2P present in GC-MS analysis
> 
> 2) Colourless
> qNMR: 91% MDMA
> No other compounds present"_
> 
> Looks like we've got solid leads on both hypotheses!! very exciting times. Want to thank everyone who is sharing their knowledge/resources of chemistry for this cause, I really don't know jackshit about any of it, but its incredibly fascinating
> 
> It could be both things, leftover precursor might be indicative of structural isomers being present in the MDMA portions of the samples. If, leftover precursor = sloppy synth, and the other paper said, sloppy synth = structural isomers, sounds like an shady trio that would hang out together...


Interesting....So the MDP2P has something to do with the high? It interacts with MDMA in such way that it makes the HIGH shitty? mhmmm


----------



## vash445

nznity said:


> Interesting....So the MDP2P has something to do with the high? It interacts with MDMA in such way that it makes the HIGH shitty? mhmmm



No NOT JUST MDP2P. We got H-C(=O)-N in a recent batch which looks like the images encased in red on page 160... which is not a ketone..

(someone please correct me if i'm wrong my chemistry is very shitty and I hardly follow this thread chemistry speaking wise TBH) thoiu i've been the main contributor the past few weeks


----------



## nznity

vash445 said:


> No NOT JUST MDP2P. We got H-C(=O)-N in a recent batch which looks like the images encased in red on page 160...


dang, y don't they just make mdma the old school way again uu. Safrole all the wayyyyyyyyyy.


----------



## vash445

nznity said:


> dang, y don't they just make mdma the old school way again uu. Safrole all the wayyyyyyyyyy.



READ MY NMR AND MALDI REPORT this is a small lab made with safrole BROTHER.  safrole tested by NMR and TLC and alike every which way brother  It's not the precursor man... It's an impurity during synthesis... forming synthesis. COOH most likely forming the double bonded oxygen and forming a carbonyl impurity


----------



## nznity

vash445 said:


> READ MY NMR AND MALDI REPORT this is a small lab made with safrole BROTHER. I provided the safrole tested by NMR and TLC and alike every which way brother  It's not the precourser man...


I'm a bit lazy to read the whole report, can u summarize in a few lines what's wrong with the MDMA these days? or what's ur hypothesis?


----------



## vash445

nznity said:


> I'm a bit lazy to read the whole report, can u summarize in a few lines what's wrong with the MDMA these days? or what's ur hypothesis?


carbonyl impurity


----------



## nznity

vash445 said:


> carbonyl impurity


Is that even difficult to clean up from a batch? or people making MDMA these days are just lazy fkers.


----------



## vash445

nznity said:


> Is that even difficult to clean up from a batch? or people making MDMA these days are just lazy fkers.


Doesn't seem easy to clean. Needs a column at least, acetone wash and crystallization wont fix it. We dont know how easy a column will clean it we are trying to find out the impurity in this specific batch in the next week We need @vecktor  to finish his report (no rush)t to help this will help a lot...  We are running a TLC in the next few days to see how easy it is to separate


----------



## babooon87




----------



## babooon87




----------



## babooon87




----------



## babooon87




----------



## babooon87

So yeah, sample 1, brown/transparent (how is that even possible ?) rocks weighted at 78 mg is definitely Mehhh. Still 4 samples to go throught. There is one that he seemed pretty greedy and defensive with that looked good and is probably the magic stuff. His attitude was really off about that sample....


----------



## babooon87

Yeah, even BZP had this '' nostalgia '' feeling going for it (before the 48 hour comedown that felt like an oxy withdrawal, fever, salmonella and depression all at once.)


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> Not a whole alot of information out there expect that study looking at the effects on the receptors. Not something that would attract funding aswell. Maybe try find a way to contact the papers author with questions?




See your not thinking... WHAT IS THIS ABSTRACT? Kinda goes above my head but a simple google search of *carbonyl* serotoin yielded this... I can dissect pieces... pharmacology isnt my specialty clandestine synthesis is sorry...

*In vivo binding properties of [carbonyl-11C]WAY-100635: effect of endogenous serotonin.*

[Carbonyl-(11)C]WAY-100635 has been reported to be a useful ligand for the investigation of 5-HT(1A) receptor imaging in vivo. However, the cellular distribution and the influence of endogenous serotonin (5-HT) on in vivo binding have not been fully examined. In this study, we investigated the effect of 5,7-dihydroxytryptamine-produced destruction of 5-HT neurons, reserpine-induced 5-HT depletion, and fenfluramine-induced 5-HT increase on [carbonyl-(11)C]WAY-100635 binding in vivo. There was no significant change in the uptake of [carbonyl-(11)C]WAY-100635 in the slice of 5-HT denervated rat brain except in the raphe nucleus, where 5-HT cell bodies exist. There was no obvious effect of enhanced 5-HT release by fenfluramine or decreased release by reserpine on [carbonyl-(11)C]WAY-100635 binding in the dissected brain region. No significant effect was observed in the time course of [carbonyl-(11)C]WAY-100635 in the hippocampus and frontal cortex measured by PET. These results indicated that the in vivo binding of [carbonyl-(11)C]WAY-100635 in the hippocampus and cerebral cortex mainly reflects postsynaptic 5-HT(1A) receptor binding, and that this binding is not sensitive to endogenous 5-HT.




			Sci-Hub | In vivo binding properties of [carbonyl-11C]WAY-100635: Effect of endogenous serotonin. Synapse, 40(2), 122–129 | 10.1002/syn.1033
		


_WAY_-_100635_ is a piperazine drug you know similar too
*Recreational Drugs*


4-Bromo-2,5-dimethoxy-1-benzylpiperazine (2C-B-BZP)
1-Benzylpiperazine (BZP)
2,3-Dichlorophenylpiperazine (DCPP)
1,4-Dibenzylpiperazine (DBZP)
4-Methyl-1-benzylpiperazine (MBZP)
3-Chlorophenylpiperazine (mCPP)

*WAY*-*100635 is a piperazine* drug and research chemical widely used in scientific studies. It was originally believed to act as a selective 5-HT1A receptor antagonist, but subsequent research showed that it also acts as potent full agonist at the D4 receptor.



So this is a *carbonyl-11C BZP analog similar to our MDMA carbonyl-11 or 12C analog?*


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445, you posted that, "MDMA has ten times more affinity for uptake at serotonin transporters compared to dopamine and norepinephrine transporters and consequently has mainly serotonergic effects.[95]:1080 "

Earlier, in the report, it implied that the impurities had a greater effect on serotonin receptor systems than dopamine (based on my limited interpretation). 
"...suppressed MDMA-induced release mediated by the SERT more potently than NET-mediated release, whereas MDMA-induced release mediated by the DAT was only weakly inhibited in concentrations up to 100 M (Fig. 8C). " (Link) 

Theoretically, this could explain why the mehDMA still has some effects like jaw shaking etc, but lacks the serotonergic effects like love and empathy. Since it feels "weak" but similar to MDMA in some ways, people take much higher doses than they should, which could contribute to the physically difficult come-downs. It would also explain why there is no typical "suicide Tuesday," because there is no serotonin crash. Of course, the impurities would also be contributing to the physically rough come-downs.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, seems like our working thesis is evolving. Currently, appears that: improper synthesis methods are resulting in impurities and/or isomers that reduce the effects of MDMA at the receptor level, but are challenging to identify in typical GCMS testing due to similar molecular weights.

Does that accurately summarize where we are currently? I want to keep Drugs Data in the loop. They have had some issues in their offices and have not been able to move forward on their end yet, but are still planning to. If we have reports and additional information, I can forward that info to them and it may help them know where to start with updating their procedures to be able to identify these contaminants.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> Also, seems like our working thesis is evolving. Currently, appears that: improper synthesis methods are resulting in impurities and/or isomers that reduce the effects of MDMA at the receptor level, but are challenging to identify in typical GCMS testing due to similar molecular weights.
> 
> Does that accurately summarize where we are currently? I want to keep Drugs Data in the loop. They have had some issues in their offices and have not been able to move forward on their end yet, but are still planning to. If we have reports and additional information, I can forward that info to them and it may help them know where to start with updating their procedures to be able to identify these contaminants.


yes that is about all we know.


----------



## vecktor

the images below have all the peaks assigned. this will be one of 3 post, 
first the 1H NMR
The NMR is very similar to what would be expected for MDMA, but there are a couple of weird things. The broad resonance at 9ppm is most likely to be protonated amine not carbonyl, as there is no carbonyl carbon in the 13C spectra. I will review the 13c results in the next post.
The resonances around 2.5 ppm are being covered by the DMSO solvent. An expansion of the region at 2.5ppm would make it possible to see with a bit more detail what is going on. however on the left there is one of the expected benzylic position protons, there is an unidentified peak X to the right upfield of DMSO at 2.497 ppm this could be amine but it is strange that there are two distinct amine resonances as peak at 2.072 could be N-H too.
The 9ppm peak is consistent with some amine hydrochlorides in DMSO but there is no info on mdma.hcl in dmso.

3.5 is water it should be 3.3 in DMSO but it can move around



The aromatic region is as expected, it is methylenedioxy and 3,4 pattern.


----------



## vecktor

next 13C
There is not much unexpected here, it is consistent with MDMA and there is only one carbon that shouldn't be there.



Note there are no resonances left of 150ppm (the 3 and 4 position aromatic carbons) no carbonyls no amides no esters no carboxylic acids no carbonyls.
and on to the next post wtf does this all mean


----------



## indigoaura

Looking forward to the wtf does this all mean post. :D


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> next 13C
> There is not much unexpected here, it is consistent with MDMA and there is only one carbon that shouldn't be there.
> 
> View attachment 17292
> 
> Note there are no resonances left of 150ppm (the 3 and 4 position aromatic carbons) no carbonyls no amides no esters no carboxylic acids no carbonyls.
> and on to the next post wtf does this all mean



So I took a better carbon today.  That mystery peak is an impurity and is likely part of the same molecule that the new mini peak at 207 is part of......And we see that a peak at 207 .....An aldehyde or ketone!!!!!  Yeaaaa!!!!!Your friends analysis is all correct but still doesn't tell us what's happening. He is just as confused as I am. It has carbonyl impurities, It's structure seems very close to what it should look like in nmr but not quite...


----------



## vecktor

Ideas??
On the face of it this NMR is MDMA. the supposed potency and effects of this are not matching MDMA. Or that is what everyone thinks.
if this is not MDMA it a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA both 1H and 13C which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.

The 2D NMR is interesting and probably holds some useful clues.

one candidate for the problem that would fit with the data so far is the a dimer, 

this has practically the same NMR as MDMA, with NMR using D2O as the solvent, it would be almost impossible to tell this apart from MDMA. in general if this was contaminating MDMA it would be very very hard to spot indeed

GC MS would only see it if the chromatography run was long enough and the mass spec scanning high enough.

This can be formed if the stoichimetry in reductive amination is wrong, too much ketone not a big enough excess of methylamine or methylamine equivalent. It doesn't matter what reductive amination is done, leuckart, Al/Hg, cat H2, Borohydride if there is not a large enough excess of methylamine the dimer is going to form. The MDA version fo this dimer can also form from reduction of methylenedioxyphenylnitro propene (nitrostyrene).

this is most likely a serotonin reuptake inhibitor but it is not known whether it reduces the effects of mdma in humans.

Vash if you want to get your NMR guy to run it again in D2O and then D2O with a drop of water that would probably give very useful information.

somebody else with Meh needs to get it NMR analysed to see if it is similar to this stuff. then good stuff needs to be compared to Meh with NMR and that would give the definitive proof that there is something to this.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> Looking forward to the wtf does this all mean post. :D




The answer is Both of them really don't know it seems XD


vecktor said:


> Ideas??
> On the face of it this NMR is MDMA. the supposed potency and effects of this are not matching MDMA. Or that is what everyone thinks.
> if this is not MDMA it a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA and MDMA, both 1H and 13C which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.
> 
> The 2D NMR is interesting and probably holds some useful clues.
> 
> one candidate for the problem that would fit with the data so far is the a dimer, View attachment 17296
> 
> this has practically the same NMR as MDMA, with NMR using D2O as the solvent, it would be almost impossible to tell this apart from MDMA. in general if this was contaminating MDMA it would be very very hard to spot indeed
> 
> GC MS would only see it if the chromatography run was long enough and the mass spec scanning high enough.
> 
> This can be formed if the stoichimetry in reductive amination is wrong, too much ketone not a big enough excess of methylamine or methylamine equivalent. It doesn't matter what reductive amination is done, leuckardt, Al HG, cat H2, Borohydride if there is not a large enough excess of methylamine the dimer is going to form. The MDA version fo this dimer can also form from reduction of methylenedioxyphenylnitro propene (nitrostyrene).
> 
> this is most likely a serotonin reuptake inhibitor but it is not known whether it reduces the effects of mdma in humans.
> 
> Vash if you want to get your NMR guy to run it again in D2O and then D2O with a drop of water that would probably give very useful information.
> 
> somebody else with Meh needs to get it NMR analysed to see if it is similar to this stuff. then good stuff needs to be compared to Meh with NMR and that would give the definitive proof that there is something to this.



*@indigoaura has donated 2 samples of MEH. I have procured and tested  a batch of magic active at 90-110mg soo... this is after the "failed" halloween roll

NMR guy is out of of this meh but I still have some I just gonna send it all over.*


----------



## vecktor

share the new 13C please.
can another 1H in D2O be run I think the wierd data is consistent with dimer at the moment not formyl


----------



## vecktor

I personally think that this material is incompetent synthesis done by clueless idiots. mix clueless idiots with clandestine chemistry and god only knows what you create. Combine shoddy synthesis with no proper purifcation and the result is predictably junk, but junk that people buy and consume anyway because thanks to the war on drugs there is no legitimate alternative.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> share the new 13C please.
> can another 1H in D2O be run I think the wierd data is consistent with dimer at the moment not formyl




Give me a day or 2 i'll get it up here.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

Read all 162 pages and had to sign up to say thank you to everyone trying to figure out this mystery.

My first time with MDMA was in my mid-30s in 2015. Managed to get my hands on some (sourced in-person via connection on the west coast of USA) for my wife and to try, and it was truly the definition of MagicDMA. 

Super loved up, massive pupils, open, euphoric, rubbing on each other all night, lasted 6 hours, hard to sleep, next day afterglow. My wife usually badly chewed the inside of her cheeks even with taking measures to prevent it. Tan crystal, smelled strongly like safrole, tasted terrible, went purple to black with Marquis.  
Had enough from that batch to last a year and a half for both of us rolling every 3-4 months.

Everything I've been able to get ahold of since then (DNM sourced, personally tested with Marquis, Mandelin, Mecke, Simons reagents) has been meh.
Usually white or very light greyish/tan crystals that go immediately black with Marquis, no hint of purple. Faint or no smell, taste is always more salty than bitter. 
Come up with no euphoria, very little if any pupil dilation, open but much more introspective, lasts 3-4 hours, tired before it even wears off, wife doesn't chew her cheeks.

I'm starting to believe that the original batch of magic I had was a west coast or possibly even Canadian made product. 
My source at the time was very well connected in those circles.

All the meh has either been sourced from European or Canadian (probably reselling European product) DNM vendors.

Very interested in seeing how this all turns out.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Yea good MDMA has zero salty taste.  I’ve seen lots of, presumably kids, on Reddit talking about MDMA is supposed to taste salty and I just shake my head..

Thanks for stopping in to share your experience and appreciate you taking the time to read it all 

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

The dimer theory is a good one..

If we are to be blaming large scale productions for being the problem it’d make sense that they try to cut costs in any way possible.  One such way would be to minimize methylamine usage since its not an easy precursor to obtain in the quantities they need.

If they can make a product which tests legit in the lab but requires less methylamine, even if it feels “less good” they’ll still likely go for it because of the money.

The problem then becomes how to separate the dimer easily at home.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

What is a dimer?

I am donating two meh samples to science. One is the product I had access to from 2005 onward. Previously sent into ecstasydata with an impurity noted. Last time I consumed this was October, 2017. The other is from NYE 2018. Stronger but still no pupil dilation or "loved up" feelings. Bad comedown on both of these samples. They are both meh, but with slightly different effects profiles.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> share the new 13C please.
> can another 1H in D2O be run I think the wierd data is consistent with dimer at the moment not formyl



I think this is the right one.. lemme know if you need any rescanned. 13c longer rescanned


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> I personally think that this material is incompetent synthesis done by clueless idiots. mix clueless idiots with clandestine chemistry and god only knows what you create. Combine shoddy synthesis with no proper purifcation and the result is predictably junk, but junk that people buy and consume anyway because thanks to the war on drugs there is no legitimate alternative.



He also said he can't run it in D2O/H2O as he cann't find the tiny bit of sample he had. We will try and run it later.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> What is a dimer?
> 
> I am donating two meh samples to science. One is the product I had access to from 2005 onward. Previously sent into ecstasydata with an impurity noted. Last time I consumed this was October, 2017. The other is from NYE 2018. Stronger but still no pupil dilation or "loved up" feelings. Bad comedown on both of these samples. They are both meh, but with slightly different effects profiles.



a molecule or molecular complex consisting of two identical molecules linked together.


----------



## Hilopsilo

nznity said:


> Interesting....So the MDP2P has something to do with the high? It interacts with MDMA in such way that it makes the HIGH shitty? mhmmm



It might, we can't say for sure yet I don't think, need a lot more specifics

we also don't know how much MDP2P was even in the sample I had (or anyone has had), at MOST it would have been 15% since the test said it was 85% MDMA, so at the very most I'd have consumed 15mg of MDP2P with my MDMA. And they didn't even report anything for the remaining 9% of the other sample, so who knows. What I was saying is that the presence of MDP2P might be an indicator of the problem, not necessarily the action of it if that makes sense.


----------



## wenluojia

I don't know anything about chemistry. But it might be of interest for some of the more knowledgable people here to just do internet research with "mdma" and "dimer". For example:

Mention of a Dimer on EcstasyData
Paper: Synthesis and impurity profiling of MDMA prepared from commonly available starting materials. (DOWNLOAD HERE)
Paper: Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters (DOWNLOAD HERE)
Paper: Impurity profiling of ecstasy tablets seized in Hong Kong by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry (DOWNLOAD HERE)
Paper: Chemical profiling of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) tablets seized in Hong Kong.


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> It might, we can't say for sure yet I don't think, need a lot more specifics
> 
> we also don't know how much MDP2P was even in the sample I had (or anyone has had), at MOST it would have been 15% since the test said it was 85% MDMA, so at the very most I'd have consumed 15mg of MDP2P with my MDMA. And they didn't even report anything for the remaining 9% of the other sample, so who knows. What I was saying is that the presence of MDP2P might be an indicator of the problem, not necessarily the action of it if that makes sense.



I usually seen 3:1 or 4:1 or something like 25-30% mdma, also *indigoaura* had a 5:1 batch There is also a batch of 4:1 MDP2Pol to MDMA 4:1. not the other way around!! Drug data is a good place to get an general idea.


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> I usually seen 3:1 or 4:1 or something like 25-30% mdma, also *indigoaura* had a 5:1 batch There is also a batch of 4:1 MDP2P to MDMA 4:1. not the other way around!! Drug data is a good place to get an general idea.



you have that totally the wrong way round, the data posted shows 3, 4 or 9 parts MDMA for one part MDP2P.

There should not be any MDP2P, the fact the data shows that there is, points to a clumsy synthesis without a sufficient excess of methylamine.
MDP2Pol should also not be there. it is from straight reduction of MDP2P. 

I doubt MDP2P or MDP2Pol have any relevent  interesting or significant pharmacology. MDP2P is a known metabolite of MDMA.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

This has a lot about impurities found in mdma etc...  Includes a great table of characteristic contaminants by substance and synth method.  Includes refs to MDMA dimer.

A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine


----------



## opposable-thumbs

wenluojia said:


> Paper: Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters (DOWNLOAD)



I’m not a chemist so I don’t really know what a lot of this means but the abstract mentions that 2 of the synthesis byproducts inhibit release induced by MDMA.



> *12*, and *13* were examined for induction of carrier-mediated release by superfusion of transporter expressing cells preloaded with the metabolically inert transporter substrate [3H]1-methyl-4-phenylpyridinium. MDMA induced release mediated by NET, SERT, or DAT with EC50 values of 0.64, 1.12, and 3.24 μM, respectively. *12* weakly released from NET- and SERT-expressing cells with maximum effects less than one-tenth of that of MDMA and did not release from DAT cells. *13* had no releasing activity. *12* and *13* inhibited release induced by MDMA, and the concentration dependence of this effect correlated with their uptake inhibitory potency at the various transporters.


----------



## vash445

Here's the MDMA formyl I believe @vecktor  was talking about. What is interesting is glancing at the article @ThreePointCircle just posted I peeped this on the Leuckart reaction section

As discussed in the next section, both Swist et al. [36] and Cheng et al. [75] have some evidence that N-formyl-MDMA (structure F8 is associated with the synthesis of MDMA via reductive aminations as well as via the Leuckart reaction. Compounds F4–F7 have also been identified as route-specific markers in MDMA production via this route.

Hopefully when @vecktor finishs his analysis of the extended 13C I posted yesterday it will help clear more answer.

Thank you everyone who has put forth this team effort!! Again everyone should know my chemistry sucks and I really don't know much...


----------



## G_Chem

vecktor said:


> you have that totally the wrong way round, the data posted shows 3, 4 or 9 parts MDMA for one part MDP2P.
> 
> There should not be any MDP2P, the fact the data shows that there is, points to a clumsy synthesis without a sufficient excess of methylamine.
> MDP2Pol should also not be there. it is from straight reduction of MDP2P.
> 
> I doubt MDP2P or MDP2Pol have any relevent  interesting or significant pharmacology. MDP2P is a known metabolite of MDMA.



I was going to come to say this... So far we have both Indigo and Hilo who have had product which had excess intermediate precursor leftover.

As you said Vektor, this points _again_ to the dimer theory.  Not having enough methylamine to properly convert the intermediates.

Now how to properly separate said dimer from the MDMA..

-GC


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> I was going to come to say this... So far we have both Indigo and Hilo who have had product which had excess intermediate precursor leftover.
> 
> As you said Vektor, this points _again_ to the dimer theory.  Not having enough methylamine to properly convert the intermediates.
> 
> Now how to properly separate said dimer from the MDMA..
> 
> -GC



yeah but 1 sample is 4 parts MDP2Pol to 1 part MDMA that is like ...really?


----------



## G_Chem

Haha yea that was some jack off who hopefully is long out of the game by now...  If you look there is actually one press on EData with nothing but intermediate!!  I forget which one, maybe the nitrostyrene...  But still.. How does this happen?

My guess is labs that just whip up batch after batch with little testing to make sure completion of reactions.

-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

So if I'm understanding correctly, not enough methylamine in the reaction results in an excess of MDP2P (or other precursor?) as it did not have methylamine to react (?) with. Without enough methylamine, MDP2P is left unreacted and MDMA-dimer is created  instead of MDMA? 

I'm confused why anything is created at all once the methylamine is used  up and the MDP2P is simply left untouched, both ingredients are out of the equation. Is MDMA-dimer the result of everything else minus those two?

Just trying to convert all this is to sensical laymans terms

Still, out of ED's 8000 entries MDP2P/Pol is not terribly common at all. Would MDP2P/other precursor excess always be present if Dimer was created? Or could that be removed after the fact (make a batch without enough methylamine, wash out the MDP2P, and voila you have what passes as straight MDMA but has MDMA-dimer hiding?)


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> So if I'm understanding correctly, not enough methylamine in the reaction results in an excess of MDP2P (or other precursor?) as it did not have methylamine to react (?) with. Without enough methylamine, MDP2P is left unreacted and MDMA-dimer is created  instead of MDMA?
> 
> I'm confused why anything is created at all once the methylamine is used  up and the MDP2P is simply left untouched, both ingredients are out of the equation. Is MDMA-dimer the result of everything else minus those two?
> 
> Just trying to convert all this is to sensical laymans terms
> 
> Still, out of ED's 8000 entries MDP2P/Pol is not terribly common at all. Would MDP2P/other precursor excess always be present if Dimer was created? Or could that be removed after the fact (make a batch without enough methylamine, wash out the MDP2P, and voila you have what passes as straight MDMA but has MDMA-dimer hiding?)



This specific batch I believe is MDMA dimmer.. there was no carbonyl or ketone aldehyde or similar detected 

However we have seen batches with MDP2P/pol Possibly causing the same or similar effects. But as far as I know I don't know shit so...


----------



## Hilopsilo

Thats what I'm saying, MDP2P/Pol/whatever might not have any notable pharmocological effects whatsoever, but indicate the presence of something else that does or is masquerading as MDMA, it tells us the synth was sloppy, its the "smoking gun" (maybe)

My concern is that we dont have any concrete reasoning to believe MDP2P/similar has any effects, let alone at what amount. We know _some_ precursor, _possibly similar _to whats been found in MDMA samples, has _some _not very well understood effects on the action of MDMA at _some _dose. Its certainly promising but we need to know way more

I find it seems more believable that the leftover MDP2P in a sample is a telltale sign the MDMA portion being madeup of something else due to sloppy synth, since we have a knowledgable chemist here telling us that first hand.


----------



## babooon87

Hilopsilo said:


> Thats what I'm saying, MDP2P/Pol/whatever might not have any notable pharmocological effects whatsoever, but indicate the presence of something else that does or is masquerading as MDMA, it tells us the synth was sloppy, its the "smoking gun" (maybe)
> 
> My concern is that we dont have any concrete reasoning to believe MDP2P/similar has any effects, let alone at what amount. We know _some_ precursor, _possibly similar _to whats been found in MDMA samples, has _some _not very well understood effects on the action of MDMA at _some _dose. Its certainly promising but we need to know way more
> 
> I find it seems more believable that the leftover MDP2P in a sample is a telltale sign the MDMA portion being madeup of something else due to sloppy synth, since we have a knowledgable chemist here telling us that first hand.



Could very well be the smoking gun as MDP2P presence in samples begins appearing around 2009 on Edata. About the same time MehDMA started rearing it's ugly head.


----------



## vecktor

Hilopsilo said:


> So if I'm understanding correctly, not enough methylamine in the reaction results in an excess of MDP2P (or other precursor?) as it did not have methylamine to react (?) with. Without enough methylamine, MDP2P is left unreacted and MDMA-dimer is created  instead of MDMA?
> 
> I'm confused why anything is created at all once the methylamine is used  up and the MDP2P is simply left untouched, both ingredients are out of the equation. Is MDMA-dimer the result of everything else minus those two?
> 
> Just trying to convert all this is to sensical laymans terms
> 
> Still, out of ED's 8000 entries MDP2P/Pol is not terribly common at all. Would MDP2P/other precursor excess always be present if Dimer was created? Or could that be removed after the fact (make a batch without enough methylamine, wash out the MDP2P, and voila you have what passes as straight MDMA but has MDMA-dimer hiding?)


the reaction reductive amination is in essence 2 steps, the reversible reaction of a carbonyl compound (MDP2P in this case) with an amine, Methylamine in this case to give an* imine* which is then reduced to an amine by the reducing agent Al(Hg) NaBH4 Pt H2 or whatever. If there is not enough methylamine then some of the MDP2P will be unreacted and not converted to *imine*, if the reduction step is not performed correctly then some of the* imine* will remain, which will hydrolyze to amine and starting MDP2P when the reaction is worked up. if there is not enough methylamine there will also be reduction of the MDP2P to MDP2Pol.

The problem is that the product MDMA is an amine too, just like methylamine, and this can react with the starting carbonyl to make an imine like compound which is then reduced to the dimer. The strategy of using excess methylamine is to make it much more likely that the carbonyl collides and reacts with methylamine to make MDMA, rather than the product amine MDMA (making the dimer).  This problem is more likely if the reaction is run too concentrated and a couple of other things are important but I am not going to go into those details.

So whilst MDP2P should not be in the product, and to be seen by GCMS software it needs to be greater than 1% of the largest peak area. it is conceivable that a product could contain MDP2P but not significant dimer because there was enough methylamine but the *imine* was not reduced, the second part of the reductive amination was rushed or screwed up and so the unreduced imine hydrolyzed back to MDP2P and methylamine. It is however a clear sign of a screwed up synthesis.
Likewise no MDP2P does not mean the reaction was run right, because the MDP2P is nonpolar if the MDMA hydrochloride was washed with a solvent then the MDP2P would be washed out. the dimer because it is also an amine hydrochloride would not be washed out. Vacuum distillation of the freebase or proper recrystalization of the hydrochloride salt would remove the dimer if it was present almost completely.

There are a whole load of other factors that a real process chemist would nail down, pH, temperature, reagent proportions, concentration, stirring, work up, starting material purity. All of these things would be varied in tests and the side reactions identified and those that were found to be critical would be tightly controlled but clandestine synthesis is cheap and nasty and there is no control of the reaction and no control of the product purity.

Methylamine certainly appears difficult for clandestines to source in large quantities, it also really stinks and excess stinky methylamine will be in the product and the various liquids, and so there is going to be a huge temptation for clandestines to reduce to the minimum the methylamine (or methylamine surrogate like nitromethane) they use. There must also be a temptation to rush the synthesis, because they don't want to get caught. so half run reactions and unconverted starting material is quite likely, then add total lack of purification of the product and see the crap that is getting into the final material.

The dimer does go through GCMS but it comes out very very late. I don't thing EC or the others are looking for it and if it is under 1% their software would ignore it anyway.

I will comment on the 13C spectra later. 

good work people!


----------



## G_Chem

^^Any idea how to separate the dimer?

-GC


----------



## vecktor

G_Chem said:


> ^^Any idea how to separate the dimer?
> 
> -GC


for certain? vacuum distillation of the freebase.
also pretty certain? tosylation of the mixture, MDMA which is a secondary amine will react and the sulfonamide will drop out as solid, the tertiary amine will not react. Hinsbergs method. the MDMA will be ruined but you will have successfully isolated the dimer.
mostly certain? careful recrystalization of the hydrochloride from alcohol, probably several times to be sure.

neither is commonly done by clandestines AFAIK

I was initially skeptical of this Meh Magic thing, but the super dosed pills and numerous reports kind of point to something wrong. The super high dosed pills are just plain dangerous, because no doubt the toxic side effects of MDMA are just as significant with Meh and Magic so super high dosing to try and get decent effects is just increasing the toxic side effects. The trouble is whilst MDMA remains illegal is the quality and dosing is going to be all over the place and people are going to keep getting hurt unnecessarily. MDMA will also get an undeserved bad reputation.

I think that there is a possibility that the mystery could be solved, whether the clandestine idiots listen to what is being said here is another matter. I don't want to help clandestines directly or indirectly but at the same time I don't want to see something unnecessarily dangerous out there, which creates a bit of a dilemma.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Thanks for the explanation, looks like this is all less cut and dry than my brain wants it to be.

A couple follow up questions, when you say "This problem is more likely if the reaction is run too concentrated", by too concentrated, do you mean the scale of the reaction? Like this issue is more likely to come up in a large batch reaction versus the equivalent smaller batch

(nvm this second question, i misread the post)


----------



## vecktor

Hilopsilo said:


> Thanks for the explanation, looks like this is all less cut and dry than my brain wants it to be.
> 
> A couple follow up questions, when you say "This problem is more likely if the reaction is run too concentrated", by too concentrated, do you mean the scale of the reaction? Like this issue is more likely to come up in a large batch reaction versus the equivalent smaller batch
> 
> Also, if ED is missing Dimer if its under 1%, then would it even be all that significant? For example, in a 100mg dose 1mg or less of dimer would have to be enough to have serious impacts on the effects. You think they'd totally see Dimer if it was say, 30% of the MDMA in a sample? They've never reported Dimer, so either its not there, under 1% (inconsequential?) or they're missing it



concentrated is likely at any scale, it come down to greed, trying to get the maximum amount of stuff in one run out of whatever scale of kit the clandestine has.

I am unconvinced by EDs general competence, but I would hope that even they would see 30% dimer !! Then again 30% dimer is very unlikely because that would need so much less methylamine present in the reaction, which is a major synthetic screw up even for clandestines. I suspect that the dimer is present in their GCMS data and it is eluting late in the run with all the other junk from the column and they just are not looking for it. the mass spectrum would look very very similar to MDMA. Giving the testers the benefit of the doubt and the amounts of dimer are small then does this matter? I think it might.

SRIs are active in the single milligram range and can really inhibit MDMA. Whether MDMA dimer is active in this range in humans who knows. There are plenty of SRIs known with sub nanomolar Ki . The MDA dimer is a reuptake inhibitor according to some of the in vitro work in the papers above. MDMA dimer probably too. The interesting thing here is that the main distinction between Meh and Magic is not complete absence of effects but subtly different effects.
MDMA mostly works on NE not SE but the more subtle MDMA effects are probably due to its interaction with SERT

I think the theory that it is due to a contaminant that is analytically hard to spot is still standing at the moment.

More NMR is needed of definite Meh and definite Magic and careful GCMS too of both meh and magic. if there is something to see then those tools will show it.

Spiked samples sent to ED or the other testing organizations would reveal what they can and can't see. It seems highly unlikely they are going to openly and publically co-operate on this as it would reveal their true capabilities. If anyone from ED or any other testing organization wants to discuss analysis and analytical techniques feel free to PM me, though I won't be holding my breath.

The ultimate proof would be to mix pure MDMA with a known contaminant (the dimer perhaps) and see if it was then reported as meh by those consuming it.

Any Ethics comittee would have a stroke over that experimental protocol but it would answer the question


----------



## G_Chem

Yea I was skeptical of this whole thing myself, at times I’ll admit I still am, but just the massive amount of reports (many of which from those that have started much longer after myself) had me believing something must be amiss.

On top of that pretty much everyone I know who started at similar times has zero problem rolling unless they really burnt themselves out, but even those people still get most of the effects.  My brother has done insane amounts and still rolls pretty good considering it all.  It all lead me to think it has to be down to supply and not tolerance over time.

But do appreciate your change of mindset as well assistance, the dimer theory seems fairly sound.  Unfortunate the options to fix the problem, vacuum freebase distillation isn’t in most normal users ability or budget.  Re-X could work but as you said I suspect at least 3 but probably more like 5-6 at least to start really cleaning it out.

-GC


----------



## psy997

I honestly don't think finding consumer level solutions is needed. It would be great, yes, and if we isolate what exactly is going on, things are going to change. Whether that's from pressure from testing centers getting their shit together and finding these contaminants and getting loud, or the media having an absolute hissy fit (likely leading to a reduction in supply, and hopefully ending in a resurgence of quality MDMA post-hysteria).

I don't think that's too idealistic, but who knows.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I'm wondering if reagent testing has inadvertently helped this situation arise.  Back before testing kits became widely available, I guess people just judged pills on how they felt.  Now, so much is judged on did they pass the tests.  So now the producers are, maybe cynically, optimising the process to pass the reagent tests (and lab tests tbf) at the cheapest cost to manufacture.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

What does careful recrystallisation involve?


----------



## psy997

ThreePointCircle said:


> I'm wondering if reagent testing has inadvertently helped this situation arise.  Back before testing kits became widely available, I guess people just judged pills on how they felt.  Now, so much is judged on did they pass the tests.  So now the producers are, maybe cynically, optimising the process to pass the reagent tests (and lab tests tbf) at the cheapest cost to manufacture.



Good point.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> concentrated is likely at any scale, it come down to greed, trying to get the maximum amount of stuff in one run out of whatever scale of kit the clandestine has.
> 
> I am unconvinced by EDs general competence, but I would hope that even they would see 30% dimer !! Then again 30% dimer is very unlikely because that would need so much less methylamine present in the reaction, which is a major synthetic screw up even for clandestines. I suspect that the dimer is present in their GCMS data and it is eluting late in the run with all the other junk from the column and they just are not looking for it. the mass spectrum would look very very similar to MDMA. Giving the testers the benefit of the doubt and the amounts of dimer are small then does this matter? I think it might.
> 
> SRIs are active in the single milligram range and can really inhibit MDMA. Whether MDMA dimer is active in this range in humans who knows. There are plenty of SRIs known with sub nanomolar Ki . The MDA dimer is a reuptake inhibitor according to some of the in vitro work in the papers above. MDMA dimer probably too. The interesting thing here is that the main distinction between Meh and Magic is not complete absence of effects but subtly different effects.
> MDMA mostly works on NE not SE but the more subtle MDMA effects are probably due to its interaction with SERT
> 
> I think the theory that it is due to a contaminant that is analytically hard to spot is still standing at the moment.
> 
> More NMR is needed of definite Meh and definite Magic and careful GCMS too of both meh and magic. if there is something to see then those tools will show it.
> 
> Spiked samples sent to ED or the other testing organizations would reveal what they can and can't see. It seems highly unlikely they are going to openly and publically co-operate on this as it would reveal their true capabilities. If anyone from ED or any other testing organization wants to discuss analysis and analytical techniques feel free to PM me, though I won't be holding my breath.
> 
> The ultimate proof would be to mix pure MDMA with a known contaminant (the dimer perhaps) and see if it was then reported as meh by those consuming it.
> 
> Any Ethics comittee would have a stroke over that experimental protocol but it would answer the question



We got 2 batch of meh coming in. I have a batch of magic, and we have someone else willing to come foward with meh and magic (however I do not want to overwhelm the NMR tester)


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> What does careful recrystallisation involve?



super saturation of MDMA in hot alcohol all the crystals to form slowly.


Typically, the mixture of "compound A" and "impurity B" is dissolved in the smallest amount of hot solvent to fully dissolve the mixture, thus making a saturated solution. The solution is then allowed to cool. As the solution cools the solubility of compounds in solution drops. This results in the desired compound dropping (recrystallizing) from solution. The slower the rate of cooling, the bigger the crystals form.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> for certain? vacuum distillation of the freebase.
> also pretty certain? tosylation of the mixture, MDMA which is a secondary amine will react and the sulfonamide will drop out as solid, the tertiary amine will not react. Hinsbergs method. the MDMA will be ruined but you will have successfully isolated the dimer.
> mostly certain? careful recrystalization of the hydrochloride from alcohol, probably several times to be sure.
> 
> neither is commonly done by clandestines AFAIK
> 
> I was initially skeptical of this Meh Magic thing, but the super dosed pills and numerous reports kind of point to something wrong. The super high dosed pills are just plain dangerous, because no doubt the toxic side effects of MDMA are just as significant with Meh and Magic so super high dosing to try and get decent effects is just increasing the toxic side effects. The trouble is whilst MDMA remains illegal is the quality and dosing is going to be all over the place and people are going to keep getting hurt unnecessarily. MDMA will also get an undeserved bad reputation.
> 
> I think that there is a possibility that the mystery could be solved, whether the clandestine idiots listen to what is being said here is another matter. I don't want to help clandestines directly or indirectly but at the same time I don't want to see something unnecessarily dangerous out there, which creates a bit of a dilemma.


Well once we figure it out here, i can def spread the word on the hive, hyperlab, and alike if they decide to listen that is a whole different matter


----------



## Hilopsilo

Friend of mine who was abroad for a couple months just got back, he's always kept a small sample of any MDMA he's ever tried, its 14 small samples of 14 different batches, including the Magic stuff I had in summer 2018 that turned me onto this whole rabbit hole.. I haven't personally tried all 14 of these, but I believe he has and has at least memory-notes on what he and friends thought of it.

EDIT: UPDATE, he does have the MehDMA from 2018. So Ideally we'll try to get those 2 samples in, and the other 12 samples will be extra credit if the NMR guy gets bored, literally every color of the rainbow including the black wet stuff that came up as 50% precursor on the NMR-lite


----------



## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> Friend of mine who was abroad for a couple months just got back, he's always kept a small sample of any MDMA he's ever tried, its 14 small samples of 14 different batches, including the Magic stuff I had in summer 2018 that turned me onto this whole rabbit hole.. I haven't personally tried all 14 of these, but I believe he has and has at least memory-notes on what he and friends thought of it.
> 
> EDIT: UPDATE, he does have the MehDMA from 2018. So Ideally we'll try to get those 2 samples in, and the other 12 samples will be extra credit if the NMR guy gets bored, literally every color of the rainbow including the black wet stuff that came up as 50% precursor on the NMR-lite



He should write down what he remembers for each one sooner than later. It also could be a good idea to save the samples until more is known? I'm not sure how much, but it could be significant to have a well detailed set of samples collected over a period of years showing (possibly multiple) MehDMA defects.


----------



## Hilopsilo

For the most important samples, the IMO good comparison of the two ends of the spectrum, I think we have enough to test and also hold onto

He sent me a photo of all the samples, they're all labelled for when they're from and nicknames given to them all, made me chuckle some stuff is labelled "grey moonrock" or "purple sand", but then 2018 magic stuff is just labelled " OG MDMA"


----------



## sekio

the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to

set, setting, and expectation play a huge role in any drug experience. I have had instances where someone *insisted* that two batches of a dissociative must be different... nope, to my skilled eyes they were identical salts, identical mass on GC, identical solubility and mp...

MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's formed. It all goes via MDP2P, you can be lazy and go from the glycidate (really just a protecting group for the ketone) or  start from safrole/isosafrole, doesn't make a difference. As for the choice of amination method... doesn't seem to matter. If the chemist actually bothers to distill the freebase from the reduction then it should be pretty pure no matter what. 

These are not experimental processes that can go wild off into the weeds either. Reductive amination is a done deal in the chemistry literature. 

As for regioisomers, show me how you can go from MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine or 4-ethoxymethamphetamine or w/e.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

sekio said:


> the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to


What analysis methods did you use to determine that?  Got any of the data that we could look at?



sekio said:


> MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's formed. It all goes via MDP2P, you can be lazy and go from the glycidate (really just a protecting group for the ketone) or  start from safrole/isosafrole, doesn't make a difference. As for the choice of amination method... doesn't seem to matter. If the chemist actually bothers to distill the freebase from the reduction then it should be pretty pure no matter what.
> 
> These are not experimental processes that can go wild off into the weeds either. Reductive amination is a done deal in the chemistry literature.



This review gives plenty of examples of contaminants from different processes.  Yes, if the freebase was distilled properly I guess it would be fine but are any of them doing that nowadays?  Judging by the crap we're getting in the UK it doesn't seem the european producers are.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> super saturation of MDMA in hot alcohol all the crystals to form slowly.
> 
> Typically, the mixture of "compound A" and "impurity B" is dissolved in the smallest amount of hot solvent to fully dissolve the mixture, thus making a saturated solution. The solution is then allowed to cool. As the solution cools the solubility of compounds in solution drops. This results in the desired compound dropping (recrystallizing) from solution. The slower the rate of cooling, the bigger the crystals form.



Sorry to be dumb but got a couple of questions.  Do the impurities we are talking about (mdp2p, mdma dimer, etc...) not crystallise?  If they do, is it separate crystals and if yes, how do you separate?


----------



## vecktor

ThreePointCircle said:


> Sorry to be dumb but got a couple of questions.  Do the impurities we are talking about (mdp2p, mdma dimer, etc...) not crystallise?  If they do, is it separate crystals and if yes, how do you separate?


a lot of people don't really understand recrystalization and why it works. The theory of recrystalization is fairly simple but there is a lot of nuance to it in practice but I'm going to simplify horribly to explain.

if you hypothetically had a mixture of 2 similar compounds one 80% and the other 20% and you dissolve them in the minimum amount of hot solvent, then one assumes that the 80% material is saturated (no more can dissolve in that solvent at that temperature), the 20% material is only 20% saturated.

The hot solution is then filtered, keeping it hot. removing all insolubles.

When you cool the filtered solution, now called the mother liquor,  the 80% material will start to crystallize out pretty much immediately, the 20% material will not crystallize until it becomes saturated, (it becomes saturated as the solution cools and the solution will have to cool more before it starts to crystalize). so if the solution is cooled and stood then only a small amount of the 20% material will have crystallized out, dropped out when the mixture became saturated for the 20% material but a lot more of the 80% material will have crystallized out because that was saturated at the start. the 20% material will mostly still be in the liquid, the mother liquor. Some of the 80% material will also be in the mother liquor but most will have crystallized.
the crystals are filtered free from the mother liquor and washed with cold solvent, this removes contaminants stuck on the surface of the crystals. The resulting crystals will contain less 20% material because a lot of the 20% material is still in the mother liquor. so the crystals will be purer.

If you repeat the process enough times  then there is even less 20% material at the start, so it probably will not ever crystallize, it will not ever reach saturation. so the material crystalising is practically pure. The old school metric was to recrystalize until the melting point of the crystals didn't increase, that is then pure.

A lot of people make elementary mistakes with recrystallize, for example they don't filter and wash the crystals, or worse they allow the whole mixture to evaporate, which is totally pointless because all the contaminants are still there.

recrystalization and also fractional crystalization are techniques, which in skilled hands are extremely powerful and effective. It is not without problems. for example a relatively insoluble contaminant can continue through the process and crash out early in the cooling process. Things can co-crystalize. Things can have non linear solubility curves or reversed solubility curves (more soluble in cold than hot). Things can also react with the solvent and so on...

Recrystalization is a skilled art and one that has been lost to an extent because of the prevalence of column chromatography in industry and academia. There are entire companies that exist just to do work on crystalization for the pharmaceutical industry, it is an exceptionally critical part of the process and one that if it goes wrong is an expensive nightmare to fix.

Interestingly the size of crystals has no effect on the purity, quite often smaller crystals are purer as the don't occlude mother liquor in the crystal (mother liquor stuck in defects in the crystal)  smaller crystals also filter better.

Anyone with a pharma background will never say something is the same on the basis of one or two tests,

it has to match or pass on every test or it is not the same,
the basics are:
Trace analytical chromatography LC or GC often hyphenated techniques LC-MS GC-MS
Quantitative chromatography-usually HPLC
IR spectrum should be identical.
NMR if it is done, should also match.
If it is a new compound then HRMS is extremely useful to positively identify the compound.
The quantitative assay should also match. (eliminates errors due to water of crystalisation and solvates also detects invisible cutting compounds-not going to publish anything about that but they do exist and certain CMOs have been caught in the past)
The appearance should be the same, color hardness etc.
The salt morph and form should also be identical.

everybody knows how to cheat, the game is to try and spot cheating.

to get an idea for a pharma spec look up the USP monograph for any drug, and USP is quite old fashioned and limited in what is specified compared to the manufacturers control file.


----------



## vash445

sekio said:


> the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to
> 
> set, setting, and expectation play a huge role in any drug experience. I have had instances where someone *insisted* that two batches of a dissociative must be different... nope, to my skilled eyes they were identical salts, identical mass on GC, identical solubility and mp...
> 
> MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's formed. It all goes via MDP2P, you can be lazy and go from the glycidate (really just a protecting group for the ketone) or  start from safrole/isosafrole, doesn't make a difference. As for the choice of amination method... doesn't seem to matter. If the chemist actually bothers to distill the freebase from the reduction then it should be pretty pure no matter what.
> 
> These are not experimental processes that can go wild off into the weeds either. Reductive amination is a done deal in the chemistry literature.
> 
> As for regioisomers, show me how you can go from MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine or 4-ethoxymethamphetamine or w/e.



It's funny you mention methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine. because

MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine ( is  in one of the impurities literature posted recently not sure which on) stated MDP2P, reductive animation and a methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine impurity. ( i could be wrong but i'm pretty sure i read that skimming everything) but the MD equivalent of N-iso totally caught my eye at one point i'll go retake a look


----------



## vash445

sekio said:


> the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to
> 
> set, setting, and expectation play a huge role in any drug experience. I have had instances where someone *insisted* that two batches of a dissociative must be different... nope, to my skilled eyes they were identical salts, identical mass on GC, identical solubility and mp...
> 
> MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's formed. It all goes via MDP2P, you can be lazy and go from the glycidate (really just a protecting group for the ketone) or  start from safrole/isosafrole, doesn't make a difference. As for the choice of amination method... doesn't seem to matter. If the chemist actually bothers to distill the freebase from the reduction then it should be pretty pure no matter what.
> 
> These are not experimental processes that can go wild off into the weeds either. Reductive amination is a done deal in the chemistry literature.
> 
> As for regioisomers, show me how you can go from MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine or 4-ethoxymethamphetamine or w/e.



Also MDMA is being made and encountered from helional. Either making MDA and turning that into MDMA. At least I assume. I see alot of MDMA from ED with _MDA_ 2-aldoxime analog impurities which hint toward helional. AT least this is what cayman says so.... MDA 2-aldoxime analog is an intermediate produced in the synthesis of MDA from helional (also known as ocean propanal, aquanal, or tropional).1 The physiological and toxicological properties of this compound are not known. This product is intended for forensic and research applications.


Here is some MDMA batches with traces of MDA 2-aldoxime









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #6097 - Maserati, 6097
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				











						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7775 - Kung Fu Panda, 7775
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




OR via
The DARK Side of Total Synthesis: Strategies and Tactics in Psychoactive Drug Production

The Shulze lab recently published an MDMA synthesis that features a Curtius rearrangement (Scheme 27).89Treatment of helional (157) with sodium propionate and propionic anhydride resulted in a Perkin reaction to give unsaturated carboxylic acid 158. Olefin hydrogenation followed by acyl chloride synthesis gave (±)-159. At this point, generation of the acyl azide and subsequent Curtius rearrangement provided an isocyanate. Exposure of this intermediate to t-BuOK gave the corresponding Boc carbamate. N-Methylation followed by acid mediated Boc deprotection provided (±)-MDMA (129) which was isolated as its oxalate salt.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time with the semi recent crackdown of glyciate we either see an uptick in Helional batches, or , alpha-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxycinnamic acid (Scheme 9, Fig. 4) and its ring substituted derivatives are not commercially regulated. (This is by the DEA agent who made glycidate and many routes in 1990...) methyl-3,4-methylenedioxycinnamic acid wasn't commercially available, now it is.

With glyicate starting to be regulated, I can def see new methods popping up or going back to safrole.

While synethsis discusiion is not allow on bluelight, I feel that there maybe be only 11-4 people that may get this, but certainly not enough to go start doing, they still gotta do a lot of research to pull these methods off.


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> Also MDMA is being made and encountered from helional.
> OR via
> The DARK Side of Total Synthesis: Strategies and Tactics in Psychoactive Drug Production
> 
> The Shulze lab recently published an MDMA synthesis that features a Curtius rearrangement (Scheme 27).89Treatment of helional (157) with sodium propionate and propionic anhydride resulted in a Perkin reaction to give unsaturated carboxylic acid 158. Olefin hydrogenation followed by acyl chloride synthesis gave (±)-159. At this point, generation of the acyl azide and subsequent Curtius rearrangement provided an isocyanate. Exposure of this intermediate to t-BuOK gave the corresponding Boc carbamate. N-Methylation followed by acid mediated Boc deprotection provided (±)-MDMA (129) which was isolated as its oxalate salt.



This has been mentioned and discussed before in this thread, the shulze lab route does not start from Helional it starts from Piperonal also known as Heliotropin and it does not involve helional at any point in the synthesis. It is a sloppy error riddled paper.

In the great scheme of things though it is a very poor route and unlikely ever to get popular.

The commercial MDMA synthesis is only going to change if PMK glycidate gets difficult to get for the clandestines, at the moment it is easily obtained and will remain so for quite a while, and even as one glycidate ester is regulated the chinese mfrs will just switch to another uncontrolled ester, the Chinese gray manufacturers of glycidate are clearly able to obtain piperonal in China without problems and this business has been very lucrative for them.

leaving that aside MDMA is going to be around no matter what. 

I'm quite sure that a competent chemist could figure out an efficient route one pot 3 step route starting from a certain readily available uncontrolled ketone. or a one pot 2 step if a certain related diketone becomes commercially available. 
I'm also quite sure that someone will eventually realize the significance of hydride reduction of isocyanates directly to methylamines.


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> This has been mentioned and discussed before in this thread, the shulze lab route does not start from Helional it starts from Piperonal also known as Heliotropin and it does not involve helional at any point in the synthesis. It is a sloppy error riddled paper.
> 
> In the great scheme of things though it is a very poor route and unlikely ever to get popular.
> 
> The commercial MDMA synthesis is only going to change if PMK glycidate gets difficult to get for the clandestines, at the moment it is easily obtained and will remain so for quite a while, and even as one glycidate ester is regulated the chinese mfrs will just switch to another uncontrolled ester, the Chinese gray manufacturers of glycidate are clearly able to obtain piperonal in China without problems and this business has been very lucrative for them.
> 
> leaving that aside MDMA is going to be around no matter what.
> 
> I'm quite sure that a competent chemist could figure out an efficient route one pot 3 step route starting from a certain readily available uncontrolled ketone. or a one pot 2 step if a certain related diketone becomes commercially available.
> I'm also quite sure that someone will eventually realize the significance of hydride reduction of isocyanates directly to methylamines.


That last one you said looks mightly attractive, reguardless it still looks mdma is made from helional after making MDA of course. There is par course HELIONAL to MDP2P. HOW, well I wouldn't dare say here but man is it good.

And yes there is 1 or 2 unregulated ketones i have thought of has well, no idea if it could be  a one pot or not that is a whole different matter


----------



## Hilopsilo

sekio said:


> the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to
> 
> set, setting, and expectation play a huge role in any drug experience. I have had instances where someone *insisted* that two batches of a dissociative must be different... nope, to my skilled eyes they were identical salts, identical mass on GC, identical solubility and mp...
> 
> As for regioisomers, show me how you can go from MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine or 4-ethoxymethamphetamine or w/e.



My sample that was crappy had MDP2P leftover, the stuff that didnt had no (that they detected) MDP2P leftover. Indigo's crappy sample has MDP2P in it, I think thats a clue.

We're not talking about dissociatives, no ultimate-pure-LSD crystal, talking about MDMA. Just my opinion, the experience of MDMA is far, FAR, less left to set and setting than psychedelics or dissociatives.

As for how they get from MDP2P to a regioisomer? I dont have a clue, but these guys seem to think its quite possible since they found them in 1/3 of the samples they tested https://www.researchgate.net/public...ethylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills

By no means do we know what the culprit is, but I think with all these possibilities we've identified I think we can say without reasonable doubt all clandestine MDMA is not created equal at least in regards to what testing centers tell you


----------



## G_Chem

^^^That brings up a good point, if the authors of that article seem to think it’s down to improper synthesis I’d like to see the mechanism behind that.  What is taking place to get these different regioisomers and which ones should we expect..

-GC


----------



## vecktor

G_Chem said:


> ^^^That brings up a good point, if the authors of that article seem to think it’s down to improper synthesis I’d like to see the mechanism behind that.  What is taking place to get these different regioisomers and which ones should we expect..
> 
> -GC


if you read carefully the paper says that 9/28 samples had an impurity which was a regioisomer of MDMA. so it could quite easily be just one or two regioisomers contaminating all 9 samples.

is this real:
Depending on the synthetic route M-Alpha which is MDMA with the methylamino moved to the benzylic position formed where the MDP2P is impure and contains methylenedioxy propiophenone, likewise the regioisomer with the methylamino moved to the end of the side chain is likely where the MDP2P contains methylenedioxyphenylpropionaldehyde (a known by product of wacker oxidation of safrole)
other regioisomers are vaguely possible with known chemistry but unlikely.

or it could just be an artifact:
A posibility is that the 'regioisomer' is actually MDMA itself and they screwed up the injection of the sample, which split the injection into two separate injections. for example a splitless injection with dirty split lines or dirty filters will make a second peak as the injected vapor flashes back into the inlet when the splitless goes into split mode. this will give two peaks when there should only be one. The size of the 'regioisomer' peak relative to the MDMA peak is suspicious, but supposedly the HPLC data backs it up. 

is there a real peer reviewed version of this work? this is a conference submission and is not peer reviewed if there is not a paper that corresponds with this then take it all with a pinch of salt, the authors might not have submitted it for publication because the work was flawed.


----------



## Hilopsilo

I've searched high and low for more information on that paper or the subject in general but no dice, have been meaning to write to the authors to find out more!


----------



## Hilopsilo

Some quotes from the paper Vash just posted ( https://sci-hub.tw/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040 )

_"Cheng et al. [75] reported on tablets containing MDMA thought to be prepared by the Leuckart method. Their findings mirror those of Verweij [49] above in that dimers, pyridines and 4-methyl-5-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)pyrimidine were detected (tentatively)." (*This is an observation on that even NON-CLANDESTINE MDMA [Verweij] has these impurities, not just sketchy street drugs)*

"Gimeno et al. [80] profiled 10 MDMA seizures and identified (presumably by mass spectrometry alone) 26 different compounds of which benzaldehyde, 1,3-benzodioxole, 3,4-methylenedioxytoluene, AP,1,2-dimethyl-3-phenylaziridine, safrole,3,4 methylenedioxyphenylpropane, 3,4-methylenedioxybenzaldehyde, methcathinone,, 3,4- methylenedioxybenzyl chloride, isosafrole, 3,4-methylenedioxy-Nmethylbenzylamine (structure A5), 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,Ndimethylbenzylamine, 3,4-methylenedioxybenzyl alcohol, PMA 3,4-methylenediox-N-ethyl-N-methylamphetamine, N,N-dimethyl-(1,2-methylenedioxy)4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, N-methyl-1-[1,2- dimethoxy-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, N-ethyl-N-methyl-(1,2- methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene and N-methyl-(1,2-methylenedioxy)-4-(1-ethyl-2-aminopropyl)benzene" (*Yeah, so a lot of shit...)*

"An impurity found in MDMA samples seized and analysed in France was N-formyl-MDMA (structure F8). This impurity, present in *25%* of the samples is said to be specific to the Leuckart reaction" *(this led me to the following paper: https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/pdf/forensic/mdma.tablets.impurity.profiling.pdf where it reads:*

"Another interesting impurity found in the samples analyzed is N-formyl-MDMA, compound no.°23. This impurity, present in 25% (13) of chromatographic profiles studied, is known to be specific to the Leuckart reaction"_

From that same paper:
_"The most common impurity found is 3,4-MDP-2-P: compound no.°10. Thus, *75%* (39) of analyzed samples contained this important product," (_*ok, if forensic scientists are finding MDP2P in 75% of samples they analyzed, we can without reasonable doubt say that testing centers are missing it a lot of the time, it only shows up in 15/8000 tests on ED, 6 of which are data from the DEA which goes much more in depth overall, there are not many entries labelled as DEA). *

Looking at some of the spectrums shown in that second study, they're labelling some really short peaks. It reminds me, when I had my meh sample tested at the on-site festival FTIR, since I was pretty sure something was funky about it, I remember them showing me the result and telling me "nope thats just MDMA, theres a bit of noise up here but thats not much", in these scientific studies it looks like they're actually looking at those much smaller peaks? Rather than dismissing it as noise


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> concentrated is likely at any scale, it come down to greed, trying to get the maximum amount of stuff in one run out of whatever scale of kit the clandestine has.
> 
> I am unconvinced by EDs general competence, but I would hope that even they would see 30% dimer !! Then again 30% dimer is very unlikely because that would need so much less methylamine present in the reaction, which is a major synthetic screw up even for clandestines. I suspect that the dimer is present in their GCMS data and it is eluting late in the run with all the other junk from the column and they just are not looking for it. the mass spectrum would look very very similar to MDMA. Giving the testers the benefit of the doubt and the amounts of dimer are small then does this matter? I think it might.
> 
> SRIs are active in the single milligram range and can really inhibit MDMA. Whether MDMA dimer is active in this range in humans who knows. There are plenty of SRIs known with sub nanomolar Ki . The MDA dimer is a reuptake inhibitor according to some of the in vitro work in the papers above. MDMA dimer probably too. The interesting thing here is that the main distinction between Meh and Magic is not complete absence of effects but subtly different effects.
> MDMA mostly works on NE not SE but the more subtle MDMA effects are probably due to its interaction with SERT
> 
> I think the theory that it is due to a contaminant that is analytically hard to spot is still standing at the moment.
> 
> More NMR is needed of definite Meh and definite Magic and careful GCMS too of both meh and magic. if there is something to see then those tools will show it.
> 
> Spiked samples sent to ED or the other testing organizations would reveal what they can and can't see. It seems highly unlikely they are going to openly and publically co-operate on this as it would reveal their true capabilities. If anyone from ED or any other testing organization wants to discuss analysis and analytical techniques feel free to PM me, though I won't be holding my breath.
> 
> The ultimate proof would be to mix pure MDMA with a known contaminant (the dimer perhaps) and see if it was then reported as meh by those consuming it.
> 
> Any Ethics comittee would have a stroke over that experimental protocol but it would answer the question



I know Energy control uses *UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis)*: This technique is used in the quantification of MDMA and 2C-B

Which don't you need a pretty pure sample along with FTIR? Maybe these labs are taking short cuts testing but are missing what we clearly see in this batch of meh with NMR. or they stop running the GC/MS because it pops up MDMA and they confirming with FTIR  and the FTIR or similar detects the same mol weight, structure etc. so they are like yeah good enough 97% DARKNET DUTCH DIRT but white as fuck and meh? .

HE was confident we HAD 96-98% pure MDMA and stopped after NMR and MALDI, I so I wouldnt doubt this keeps happening in one way or another. I pretty much had to say did how how did you really feel before he started to question the MALDI and NMR results

We also had a similar issue with 2NP  and Nitroethane with similar result but this is a much more challenging puzzle for sure.


----------



## Goodwalt

Well if that's the case I don't blame them, they probably have a lot of samples to analyze. But it kind of took us to this point where a lot of us have the same "lab tested" mdma which clearly gives different experiences to each one.


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> Some quotes from the paper Vash just posted ( https://sci-hub.tw/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040 )
> 
> _"Cheng et al. [75] reported on tablets containing MDMA thought to be prepared by the Leuckart method. Their findings mirror those of Verweij [49] above in that dimers, pyridines and 4-methyl-5-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)pyrimidine were detected (tentatively)." (*This is an observation on that even NON-CLANDESTINE MDMA [Verweij] has these impurities, not just sketchy street drugs)*
> 
> "Gimeno et al. [80] profiled 10 MDMA seizures and identified (presumably by mass spectrometry alone) 26 different compounds of which benzaldehyde, 1,3-benzodioxole, 3,4-methylenedioxytoluene, AP,1,2-dimethyl-3-phenylaziridine, safrole,3,4 methylenedioxyphenylpropane, 3,4-methylenedioxybenzaldehyde, methcathinone,, 3,4- methylenedioxybenzyl chloride, isosafrole, 3,4-methylenedioxy-Nmethylbenzylamine (structure A5), 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,Ndimethylbenzylamine, 3,4-methylenedioxybenzyl alcohol, PMA 3,4-methylenediox-N-ethyl-N-methylamphetamine, N,N-dimethyl-(1,2-methylenedioxy)4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, N-methyl-1-[1,2- dimethoxy-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, N-ethyl-N-methyl-(1,2- methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene and N-methyl-(1,2-methylenedioxy)-4-(1-ethyl-2-aminopropyl)benzene" (*Yeah, so a lot of shit...)*
> 
> "An impurity found in MDMA samples seized and analysed in France was N-formyl-MDMA (structure F8). This impurity, present in *25%* of the samples is said to be specific to the Leuckart reaction" *(this led me to the following paper: https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/pdf/forensic/mdma.tablets.impurity.profiling.pdf where it reads:*
> 
> "Another interesting impurity found in the samples analyzed is N-formyl-MDMA, compound no.°23. This impurity, present in 25% (13) of chromatographic profiles studied, is known to be specific to the Leuckart reaction"_
> 
> From that same paper:
> _"The most common impurity found is 3,4-MDP-2-P: compound no.°10. Thus, *75%* (39) of analyzed samples contained this important product," (_*ok, if forensic scientists are finding MDP2P in 75% of samples they analyzed, we can without reasonable doubt say that testing centers are missing it a lot of the time, it only shows up in 15/8000 tests on ED, 6 of which are data from the DEA which goes much more in depth overall, there are not many entries labelled as DEA). *
> 
> Looking at some of the spectrums shown in that second study, they're labelling some really short peaks. It reminds me, when I had my meh sample tested at the on-site festival FTIR, since I was pretty sure something was funky about it, I remember them showing me the result and telling me "nope thats just MDMA, theres a bit of noise up here but thats not much", in these scientific studies it looks like they're actually looking at those much smaller peaks? Rather than dismissing it as noise



I'll have my guy take a closer look at those smaller peaks see if he can see a similar N-formyl


----------



## indigoaura

We still have not eliminated the possibility that the "magic" MDMA has an active impurity that is making it more "magic." This seems especially possible since a lot of these byproducts are from Leuckart, and as @G_Chem has pointed out repeatedly, users reported a different (better?) and more active high from Leuckart.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> We still have not eliminated the possibility that the "magic" MDMA has an active impurity that is making it more "magic." This seems especially possible since a lot of these byproducts are from Leuckart, and as @G_Chem has pointed out repeatedly, users reported a different (better?) and more active high from Leuckart.



Good point!


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> We still have not eliminated the possibility that the "magic" MDMA has an active impurity that is making it more "magic." This seems especially possible since a lot of these byproducts are from Leuckart, and as @G_Chem has pointed out repeatedly, users reported a different (better?) and more active high from Leuckart.




I find it doubtful but im sending in a batch of magic soon, the impurity idea making it more magic was based on the idea of safrole vs PMK glyciate ,Also the Leuckart is less active they said if  impure product i'm pretty sure I read in science articles necause of the N-formyl

sadly we are barley getting an idea of what possibly causes magic. So while we or I cant doubt it, I think the issue and my hypothesis is impurity that wasnt detected before inhibiting the high. MAPS does not have this magic issue and they made it from PIPERONAL and safrole probably going 2 vastly routes


----------



## vash445

searching r/MDMA is confirming more and more that MDMA is turning to trash.



Ecstasy was better? from
      MDMA


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> Super mega doses, Even I remember on my binge I would only do .2 tops a few days in a row... the .4 was a 1 time thing because I really didn't feel shit. This is linging up more and more with trash
> 
> 
> 
> Does serotonin ever fully regenerate? from
> MDMA


hardcore users here using magic mdma will do as much as they want no in the down under gives a single fuck about harm reduction. I had a close friend who dropped 1 gram while on shrooms lucky to be alive. My average dose on rolling weekly was i would start with around .2 and just redose all night til the party ended so i would be rolling from 9-10 pm til 6 am the next day from the amount of mdma i would use these comedowns are awful and will drive you close to suicide. 150 mg is more than enough for people without tolerance to be rolling for a good amount of time.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> hardcore users here using magic mdma will do as much as they want no in the down under gives a single fuck about harm reduction. I had a close friend who dropped 1 gram while on shrooms lucky to be alive. My average dose on rolling weekly was i would start with around .2 and just redose all night til the party ended so i would be rolling from 9-10 pm til 6 am the next day from the amount of mdma i would use these comedowns are awful and will drive you close to suicide. 150 mg is more than enough for people without tolerance to be rolling for a good amount of time.




Oh get get me wrong I had my week of rollingbut even then I never did .4-5 maybe on day 6 where I was more tweeker then rolling? reguladless, I thought I lost the magic, nah just trash MDMA


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## Hilopsilo

I'd take all that with a grain of salt, we don't know anything about what these people took or any other details really, lets not forget people have had crumby experiences with drugs/crumby experiences with crumby drugs since ever, and they're more likely to ask about it online if it wasn't a good experience versus good.

This was discussed a bit earlier in this thread but, IMO MDMA becoming incredibly inexpensive makes it that much more prone to abuse, and ever since the big shift from pressed pills to powder/crystal form, culture surrounding dosing it changed. Before (also now but less common) you have this pressed pill that you perceive as your dose, you eat it and thats it, its even got a cute little stamp on it, its all prepared. You look at the thing and it makes sense what to do, you eat it and thats the end of it, maybe chew it if you're feeling frisky. Now? You've got a baggy of the stuff and its a bit more ambiguous, you might not even know how much if a scale isn't handy, it wasn't even that expensive, might as well dive in, more appealing to snort bumps of it all night than when they were these hard little pressed pills with dyes and binders mixed in screaming for you to just eat the damn thing. I know a lot of people who just blow lines of the stuff all night, its not that its weak/bad M, just when you do it like that, constantly redosing, you can consume a lot more

3 years ago at a festival stuff that 100mg did me just fine, a friend of mine took nearly an entire gram of it "just cuz". It seems to me, just observing people, it does seem true that taking bigger doses of MDMA doesn't necessarily equal better effects, lot of people seem to basically black out if too high of a dose is taken, much more just "fucked up", not necessarily get twice the love for twice the dose. Initially I thought, and I still sort of think it, a lot of the people reporting "mongy" effects from these massive pressed pills, its just way too big of a dose and that 400mg of MDMA turns you into a zombie. I shudder at what such a dose would feel like since I only know 100mg, but I can't imagine I'd just get 4 times the effects from 400mg. I think the nature of the high must change when the first 100mg of the dose already blew your serotonin wide open but theres an extra 300mg that came in at the same time, overloads it.

Another point on that topic, shooting MDMA is not very popular among IV drug users, from what I've read its basically too intense, it becomes dysphoric and uncomfortable. I imagine taking a massive oral dose has the same problem.

As for that person not feeling it, one of the first times I rolled I ate an entire bag of rice cakes (like those long cylinders) an hour before dosing and it took, I kid you not, like 3 hours to kick in. Can't remember if it was any weaker since i was 15 lol. It was a pressed pill though, the few times i took pressed pills I remember it taking longer to kick in, which is why we just chewed them (well also because we listened to mac dre's thizzle dance and thought it was cool).

Obviously everything im saying is all anecdotal as well, but thats just it, anecdotes are only so useful, especially from these people on r/mdma that don't seem all that experienced or have any idea what is going lol


----------



## indigoaura

Well, we are pushing beyond anecdotes and into actual, testable theories at this point. Hopefully seeing test results on multiple "meh" samples will start to shed some light. We have published research backing up several of our leading theories. So, although there are plenty of anecdotes that support the theory that something is wrong with the product, now we are getting more tangible information as well.



> Then I get all weird and uncomfortable, and can't wait to get off the boat and get home. As soon as I got home, I went to bed. Talk about a waste of drugs, right?



This really reminds me of my Meh experiences. You ARE fucked up, but it is not rewarding. I can't think of how many times I wished I could go to bed, or wished that people would stop talking to me. If I was at a live music event, I may just wish for it to be over. Sometimes it is like aggressive restfulness. "I really wish everything was just quiet and I could lie down," except lying down doesn't feel good or rewarding either. Sometimes the shift from sober to meh is from a positive headspace to a negative one. I witnessed this first hand with a virgin roller who talked all night about death and terrible family trauma. She was happy before she took the pill.


----------



## Hilopsilo

If she talked about death and family trauma all night, well thats why they use MDMA in therapy, it makes talking about otherwise uncomfortable or scary things come easily, thats the point.

Im not saying any of this is completely illegitimate, but we cant completely forget that drugs affect everyone differently, set and setting does matter, and theres so little info included in seeking out other peoples bad experiences with MDMA. Meh or not people do have bad experiences with MDMA, it makes you very emotional. Especially being in uncomfortable settings or around people who arent rolling, i remember one of the first times i rolled, I was the only one who took and people i was with thought it was kind of funny. My eyes were huge and i was being overly nice, and they just sort of made fun of me, not in an incredibly mean way, but it was abrasive and was intensified by the drug. I remember just wanting it to end, almost crying, being mad at myself for taking such a hard drug, etc.

Just my opinion, a wedding on a boat full of likely drunk and not rolling
people sounds like a place id wanna get out of too if i took mdma.

Even this past summer, in the middle of my roll with what was definitely the good stuff, this couple came up to our group and sort of rudely asked for a whippit. I didnt have many left nor a clean balloon for them so i declined. They kept asking, finally stopped, but just stood next to us acting all annoyed, smoking a ton of weed and offering it to everyone except us to basically taunt us (we never even asked for it either). This (briefly) KILLED my roll, it was soooo comfortable and I almost got angry. Angry that they could be so insensitive. I also got paranoid that they might get more confrontational, tell security we had whippits, try to fight us, etc. Once they left things returned to normal. MDMA intensifies situations, usually good but can be bad. I still get uncomfortable thinking about that situation.

Maybe these people did crappy MDMA, or a lot of other factors could be at play that we shouldnt ignore, they still matter even if all MDMA is not created equal


----------



## tarzan119

How common are the side effects like pupil dialation, eye wiggles, jaw clenching in relation to real magic MDMA vs Meh? Though the intensity may vary in person to person, with real magic MDMA in moderate doses, it is generally the same across the board from what I've seen over the decades when dealing with the real thing...

Real magic MDMA from it's glory days and much less available in 2019 has pupils like saucers, barely any iris, eyes shaking out of your head, loved up tactile sensations during massages or skin touching, jaw clenching your chin off your face, intense long lasting peak, etc.

If there were metrics (let's say: 1 out of 10 with the larger number being the greatest effect) to determine these physical observations for each category, real magic MDMA would rate a 10 across the board, every single time, by virtually everyone who had it.

These physical side effects are notably lacking with Meh. Low empathy, low tactile sensation, increased lethargy. Though the jaw clenching may be present but minimal, pupil dialation minimal, little to no eye wiggles during a peak (if any peak is even noticable for that matter). Veteran and new rollers alike would likely rate it very low with the same scale. (tolerance aside in newb/virgin roller controls, reagent tested positive as MDMA, yet the effects of which is regularly reported to be Meh like now a day)

If the amount of true MDMA in mg weight is equally available in two separate samples (one magic and one meh), where the meh samples had been tested and exclusively shown to have impurities, dimers, regioisomers, or other contamination through a clumsy clansestine cooking process and/or certain precursors that INHIBIT the serotonin or mechanisms which create the magic, that would surely be the culprit. Right?

There isn't any doubt that MDMA is MDMA. But there certainly are variables in play that are ultimately impacting how we respond to one batch of magic vs the other batch of meh with all things considered.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

IF the cops could stop raiding all the mdma destined for NZ and Australian shores that would be great fucking another bust over a ton worth of mdma suppose to come here.









						Joint operation stops over 15 million MDMA pills reaching Australian streets
					

The Queensland Joint Organised Crime Taskforce (QLD JOCTF), working with the National Police of the Netherlands (NPN) Criminal Investigations Division, has charged 11 people and seized MDMA with an estimated street value totalling AUD $301.6 million.




					www.afp.gov.au


----------



## vash445

Pharmacological characterization of ecstasy synthesis by-products with recombinant human monoamine transporters* Christian Pifl, Gabor Nagy, Sándor Berényi, Alexandra Kattinger, Harald Reither and Sándor Antus Center for Brain Research (C.P., A.K., H.R.), Medical University of Vienna, Austria; Institute of Pharmacognosy (G.N.), University of Szeged, Hungary. Institute of Organic Chemistry (S. B., S.A.), University of Debrecen, Hungary.



			http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/jpet/early/2005/04/14/jpet.105.084426.full.pdf
		


@vecktor is this what you were talking about. Something more then just a conference that never even made it? I_ found a JPET #84426 ,_ Seems like this is the supplemental to it. that @TripSitterNZ posted?


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> IF the cops could stop raiding all the mdma destined for NZ and Australian shores that would be great fucking another bust over a ton worth of mdma suppose to come here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joint operation stops over 15 million MDMA pills reaching Australian streets
> 
> 
> The Queensland Joint Organised Crime Taskforce (QLD JOCTF), working with the National Police of the Netherlands (NPN) Criminal Investigations Division, has charged 11 people and seized MDMA with an estimated street value totalling AUD $301.6 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.afp.gov.au




Seems like that's the dutch garbage anyways,

The problem is MOST clandestine chemists use documented routes. They don't "think outside the box" there are defiantly some unregulated ketones, ahyldes, alcohols and such I can think of... you can get into OZ and new Zealand.

All people think of is oh whats this documented helional route and go off that, they don't think of how to go from helional to MDP2P... or random shit like that. There are documented high yielding routes. You just gotta dig science journals not hive stuff... And with countries regulating glycidate and safrole, a lot of already have backup routes and chemicals. Of course when people start talking things get popular then regulated... so we would like to keep these chemicals to ourselfs

TBH someone can read TS2 and develop their own MDMA routes for sure, they just can't read it as recipes but more as a map and compass on how it all works.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> Seems like that's the dutch garbage anyways,
> 
> The problem is MOST clandestine chemists use documented routes. They don't "think outside the box" there are defiantly some unregulated ketones, ahyldes, alcohols and such I can think of... you can get into OZ and new Zealand.
> 
> All people think of is oh whats this documented helional route and go off that, they don't think of how to go from helional to MDP2P... or random shit like that. There are documented high yielding routes. You just gotta dig science journals not hive stuff... And with countries regulating glycidate and safrole, a lot of already have backup routes and chemicals. Of course when people start talking things get popular then regulated... so we would like to keep these chemicals to ourselfs
> 
> TBH someone can read TS2 and develop their own MDMA routes for sure, they just can't read it as recipes but more as a map and compass on how it all works.


i know where gangs just get straight PMK from their triad buddies in china no glyicdate or what no infact if you know some people its super cheap to source here from them already. I know they use leckart because clandestine labs for mdma here had stocked up on formaleydhes and other things. Its just mass amounts that could arrive here would make it alot cheaper overall. So far even ounces do not come out under a $100 a gram.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> i know where gangs just get straight PMK from their triad buddies in china no glyicdate or what no infact if you know some people its super cheap to source here from them already. I know they use leckart because clandestine labs for mdma here had stocked up on formaleydhes and other things. Its just mass amounts that could arrive here would make it alot cheaper overall. So far even ounces do not come out under a $100 a gram.




Drugs in OZ and NZ have been way over priced. I remember going to the oregon eclipse and heard a deal go down with someone from oz. He paid $2,800 USD an ounce of cocaine 28 grams, and bragging he got a good deal at $10 .1 ... $10 a point to the gram to the oz... shit could have been garbage, or cut, Hell that was day 1-2 of festival drugs got more expensive day 5-6 LMAO. No american would pay $2800 for an oz..


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> Drugs in OZ and NZ have been way over priced. I remember going to the oregon eclipse and heard a deal go down with someone from oz. He paid $2,800 USD an ounce of cocaine 28 grams, and bragging he got a good deal at $10 .1 ... $10 a point to the gram to the oz... shit could have been garbage, or cut, Hell that was day 1-2 of festival drugs got more expensive day 5-6 LMAO. No american would pay $2800 for an oz..


hahaha man cocaine just arrived on these shores in larger amounts this year a OZ for uncut cocaine was over $13000. Make a 70-80% cut and people then selling that shit on the street for over $400 a gram


----------



## G_Chem

Jesus it makes drugs not even worth doing if you have to pay that amount...  IMO those that take advantage like that don’t last long in the selling game, karma is real.  I’ve seen my fair share of greedy dealers wind up with the law on their tail.

Yea 2800 is stupid high.. I’d be embarrassed, that’s MORE than single gram prices of really high quality sniff.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> Jesus it makes drugs not even worth doing if you have to pay that amount...  IMO those that take advantage like that don’t last long in the selling game, karma is real.  I’ve seen my fair share of greedy dealers wind up with the law on their tail.
> 
> Yea 2800 is stupid high.. I’d be embarrassed, that’s MORE than single gram prices of really high quality sniff.
> 
> -GC


Certain drugs are very hard to get into this country since we are so remote. Heroin is impossible to get here. Streets price for pressies range from $40-70 depending on how many are around. prices of uncut meth are still over $500 a gram. Triads are making billions here and now cartels have seen what people are willing to pay for coke they are now targeting NZ for mass shipments so the DEA setup a office here.


----------



## Hilopsilo

vash445 said:


> Pharmacological characterization of ecstasy synthesis by-products with recombinant human monoamine transporters* Christian Pifl, Gabor Nagy, Sándor Berényi, Alexandra Kattinger, Harald Reither and Sándor Antus Center for Brain Research (C.P., A.K., H.R.), Medical University of Vienna, Austria; Institute of Pharmacognosy (G.N.), University of Szeged, Hungary. Institute of Organic Chemistry (S. B., S.A.), University of Debrecen, Hungary.
> 
> 
> 
> http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/jpet/early/2005/04/14/jpet.105.084426.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> @vecktor is this what you were talking about. Something more then just a conference that never even made it? I_ found a JPET #84426 ,_ Seems like this is the supplemental to it. that @TripSitterNZ posted?



My only concern with this paper is the conclusion "In conclusion, we have found that by-products of illegal ecstasy synthesis can interact with the primary sites of action of MDMA, the monoamine transporters, and were active with similar potency as MDMA"

Similar potency, so at least in regards to these suspects it kinda rules out their impact at trace levels, no? Since it seems like with this theory its either, they're missing it since its in trace amounts, or they're missing it entirely. At least for MDP2P, not mentioned in the paper but a known impurity nonetheless, I think they're missing it due to the low concentration, Indigo's sample was one of the few ED detected it and it had a whopping 5:1 MDMA to MDP2P, other samples had similar-ish amounts


----------



## babooon87

tarzan119 said:


> How common are the side effects like pupil dialation, eye wiggles, jaw clenching in relation to real magic MDMA vs Meh? Though the intensity may vary in person to person, with real magic MDMA in moderate doses, it is generally the same across the board from what I've seen over the decades when dealing with the real thing...
> 
> Real magic MDMA from it's glory days and much less available in 2019 has pupils like saucers, barely any iris, eyes shaking out of your head, loved up tactile sensations during massages or skin touching, jaw clenching your chin off your face, intense long lasting peak, etc.
> 
> If there were metrics (let's say: 1 out of 10 with the larger number being the greatest effect) to determine these physical observations for each category, real magic MDMA would rate a 10 across the board, every single time, by virtually everyone who had it.
> 
> These physical side effects are notably lacking with Meh. Low empathy, low tactile sensation, increased lethargy. Though the jaw clenching may be present but minimal, pupil dialation minimal, little to no eye wiggles during a peak (if any peak is even noticable for that matter). Veteran and new rollers alike would likely rate it very low with the same scale. (tolerance aside in newb/virgin roller controls, reagent tested positive as MDMA, yet the effects of which is regularly reported to be Meh like now a day)
> 
> If the amount of true MDMA in mg weight is equally available in two separate samples (one magic and one meh), where the meh samples had been tested and exclusively shown to have impurities, dimers, regioisomers, or other contamination through a clumsy clansestine cooking process and/or certain precursors that INHIBIT the serotonin or mechanisms which create the magic, that would surely be the culprit. Right?
> 
> There isn't any doubt that MDMA is MDMA. But there certainly are variables in play that are ultimately impacting how we respond to one batch of magic vs the other batch of meh with all things considered.



Yes, the pupil dilation aspect is THE thing that in my mind is undeniable and the proof that something is wrong with the substance itself. The rest can all be subjective to a certain point but pupil dilation is a verifiable (by others than the person itself) and is consistently correlated to the MDMA experience vs MehDMA experience. Back in the day people with huge tolerances who were completely burnt out still had huge pupils even if they were barely feeling the effects from the drug.

Even MORE puzzling is the fact that people take wayyy larger doses now (pills dosed 200-400 mg WTF !!) and STILL don't get dilated pupils.


----------



## indigoaura

> Similar potency, so at least in regards to these suspects it kinda rules out their impact at trace levels, no?



@Hilopsilo I would have to do more research on this, but I do not think that is necessarily true. It would depend on how much affinity the substance has for the receptor, absorption rates etc. A substance with high affinity for a given receptor may bind to and/or block that receptor even with trace amounts, even if there was no observable effect.


----------



## G_Chem

MDA is of somewhat similar potency to MDMA, more potent but not by too too much.  That said I can feel as little as 5-10mg MDA mixed into the MDMA.  I’ve also noticed people claiming they can feel the MDA in some “G6” presses, when EData shows that when they do have it, it’s usually in trace amounts.  IMO you still need to be experienced but it can be felt.

I think it’s reasonable to think certain impurities could alter the effect with just a few % of the overall mass.

-Gc


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> My only concern with this paper is the conclusion "In conclusion, we have found that by-products of illegal ecstasy synthesis can interact with the primary sites of action of MDMA, the monoamine transporters, and were active with similar potency as MDMA"
> 
> Similar potency, so at least in regards to these suspects it kinda rules out their impact at trace levels, no? Since it seems like with this theory its either, they're missing it since its in trace amounts, or they're missing it entirely. At least for MDP2P, not mentioned in the paper but a known impurity nonetheless, I think they're missing it due to the low concentration, Indigo's sample was one of the few ED detected it and it had a whopping 5:1 MDMA to MDP2P, other samples had similar-ish amounts


The investigation of the human versions of the factors which are decisively involved in the in vivo action of amphetamine related compounds is also the major advantage of our transfected cell approach. On the other hand, a homogenous population of cultured cells heterogously expressing proteins cannot replace experiments in animals for obtaining data about neurotoxic effects although the importance of animal experiments appears to be weakened by the considerable differences in the toxic reaction to MDMA between various species.


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> Jesus it makes drugs not even worth doing if you have to pay that amount...  IMO those that take advantage like that don’t last long in the selling game, karma is real.  I’ve seen my fair share of greedy dealers wind up with the law on their tail.
> 
> Yea 2800 is stupid high.. I’d be embarrassed, that’s MORE than single gram prices of really high quality sniff.
> 
> -GC




A) it was an  international festival. B) there was ALOT of customers. Dude could have easily said I could sell these grammie for $100 each anyways so no discount. Plus selling an OZ is kinda a huge risk at a festival lmao as an american I would have bartered, but dude was thinking he got a deal so more power to him


----------



## G_Chem

Yea I was gonna go but other festivals called my name..  I don’t care who you are, where your from, you always try for a better deal when it comes to bulk pricing.  But as you said, if he was happy.. Then he was happy.  Not my money lol.  Those are the grade A custy types that dealers are hunting for.

-GC


----------



## opposable-thumbs

Between scanning through posts on r/mdma and seeing pics of people with pupils the size of dinner plates and the posts here where people are reporting they were able to get their hands on magic in 2018, or even 2019, it sounds like there is still good MDMA floating around out there, it's just hard to find.

I mean...not EVERY batch being made in the Dutch labs/sold on DNMs can be meh, can it?


----------



## vash445

opposable-thumbs said:


> Between scanning through posts on r/mdma and seeing pics of people with pupils the size of dinner plates and the posts here where people are reporting they were able to get their hands on magic in 2018, or even 2019, it sounds like there is still good MDMA floating around out there, it's just hard to find.
> 
> I mean...not EVERY batch being made in the Dutch labs/sold on DNMs can be meh, can it?


No just a large % is meh it seems like those blue punishers are fire... better then checkpoint


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> Yea I was gonna go but other festivals called my name..  I don’t care who you are, where your from, you always try for a better deal when it comes to bulk pricing.  But as you said, if he was happy.. Then he was happy.  Not my money lol.  Those are the grade A custy types that dealers are hunting for.
> 
> -GC



No ins and out at this festival so whatever was in was in... There was def some nice $80 gram DMT/MDMA sellers so the love was there as well no doubt.


----------



## Phobos

opposable-thumbs said:


> Between scanning through posts on r/mdma and seeing pics of people with pupils the size of dinner plates and the posts here where people are reporting they were able to get their hands on magic in 2018, or even 2019, it sounds like there is still good MDMA floating around out there, it's just hard to find.
> 
> I mean...not EVERY batch being made in the Dutch labs/sold on DNMs can be meh, can it?




Speaking from personal experience buying from real life and virtual contacts I think nowadays the streets and the mail are both just offering everything, and it is up to the buyer to vote with his wallet.

Anyway, I recently sampled some crystal MDMA after a couple month's break from all stims except caffeine, and 150mg intranasal produced the full spectrum of effects expected from MDMA.
What was remarkable about the experience from my perspective is how easy it was to not redose while having a couple of grams of it in my drawer and no specific reason for not redosing except I wanted to minimise the comedown.
After I sampled the batch together with a friend of many trips and rolls, a (21yo, 38kg/84lbs) girl that had never tried any drug except very sporadic cannabis and alcohol use ingested 130mg of the same batch in a gel cap a few minutes after ingesting about 1.5 grams of Sodium bicarbonate.
No redoses were given during the experience, and it was one of the most stereotypical and positive MDMA experiences I have ever seen. You could say textbook, if there was one.
The peak effects lasted about 3 hours after comeup, but very pronounced effects were still present for 3 more hours, and sleep came at about the T+09:00 mark with some effects still present.
Ofcourse pupils were dilated, and there was jaw clenching and gurning, lip smacking, breathing air in and out felt good, all facial expressions were greatly exaggerated, urinating was impossible for the first half (4 hours ) of the experience, and there was a total breakdown of barriers that prevented her from expressing her feelings to the people present.
There was no loss of ability to reason "normally" or to hold a meaningful conversation at all. It was very easy to convince her that this experience cannot possibly be repeated every weekend, and that it is more like a once every 6-8 weeks kind of thing if she doesn't want to see her experience diminished in quality and duration.
She did not even mention once that she was considering a redose even though she was told that it was possible to get a booster dose.
In the second part of the experience she reported mild CEVs, just moving shapes of changing colours that she could somehow control.
The next day she reported pessimistic thinking, tiredness (described as pronounced, but not unnatural), complete lack of appetite, jaw clenching was present until the late evening, meaning it stopped about 22 hours after ingestion.
The day after that she reported being fully recovered. Full memory of the experience was retained.

Looking from the outside, there is something that is a very good indicator of someone having taken Magic or Meh, with Magic every stimuli or idea causes (during peak) a profound surprise reaction, that is accompanied by immediate curiosity and attention, Meh on the other hand seems to cause diminished reactions with no accompanied bursts of curiosity as if one would rather not be bothered from the current state.


----------



## Zonxx

Phobos said:


> Speaking from personal experience buying from real life contacts and DNMs, I think nowadays the streets and the mail are both just offering everything, and it is up to the buyer to vote with his wallet.
> Same as a real life connection may take a lot of time to be distinguished from the competition, but will enjoy the benefits of its reputation, some DN dealers have been active on several markets, many of which are now dead, but they kept the same name and they do enjoy the same benefits of having a reputation as much as real life dealers.
> Honestly I am convinced that some DN dealers are just a branch or an affiliate of a street active organisation of some sort, but that's just me.
> 
> Anyway, I recently sampled some crystal MDMA after a couple month's break from all stims except caffeine, and 150mg intranasal produced the full spectrum of effects expected from MDMA.
> What was remarkable about the experience from my perspective is how easy it was to not redose while having a couple of grams of it in my drawer and no specific reason for not redosing except I wanted to minimise the comedown.
> After I sampled the batch together with a friend of many trips and rolls, a (21yo, 38kg/84lbs) girl that had never tried any drug except very sporadic cannabis and alcohol use ingested 130mg of the same batch in a gel cap a few minutes after ingesting about 1.5 grams of Sodium bicarbonate.
> No redoses were given during the experience, and it was one of the most stereotypical and positive MDMA experiences I have ever seen. You could say textbook, if there was one.
> The peak effects lasted about 3 hours after comeup, but very pronounced effects were still present for 3 more hours, and sleep came at about the T+09:00 mark with some effects still present.
> Ofcourse pupils were dilated, and there was jaw clenching and gurning, lip smacking, breathing air in and out felt good, all facial expressions were greatly exaggerated, urinating was impossible for the first half (4 hours ) of the experience, and there was a total breakdown of barriers that prevented her from expressing her feelings to the people present.
> There was no loss of ability to reason "normally" or to hold a meaningful conversation at all. It was very easy to convince her that this experience cannot possibly be repeated every weekend, and that it is more like a once every 6-8 weeks kind of thing if she doesn't want to see her experience diminished in quality and duration.
> She did not even mention once that she was considering a redose even though she was told that it was possible to get a booster dose.
> In the second part of the experience she reported mild CEVs, just moving shapes of changing colours that she could somehow control.
> The next day she reported pessimistic thinking, tiredness (described as pronounced, but not unnatural), complete lack of appetite, jaw clenching was present until the late evening, meaning it stopped about 22 hours after ingestion.
> The day after that she reported being fully recovered. Full memory of the experience was retained.
> 
> Looking from the outside, there is something that is a very good indicator of someone having taken Magic or Meh, with Magic every stimuli or idea causes (during peak) a profound surprise reaction, that is accompanied by immediate curiosity and attention, Meh on the other hand seems to cause diminished reactions with no accompanied bursts of curiosity as if one would rather not be bothered from the current state.


lalalala nothing to see here


----------



## psy997

Zonxx said:


> lalalala nothing to see here



?


----------



## G_Chem

Yea the whole redosing desire thing I’ve never understood...  This must be another indicator that the product around me is “magic.” I’ve never fiend for a redose, and usually I have to force it on myself because I know I’ll be bummed come the end when I could have had an extra hour or two from the booster.

Even some of my most fiend like friends have never had an issue with it.  Snort K all day long, eat paper like it’s going outta style, but don’t seem to feel the need to over do the MDMA.

If I was fiending for a redose..  I’d be worried it was something else.

So I got some friends that essentially rely on me for a good amount of their experiences, mainly because of my knowledge but also my ability to procure said goodies as well.  I’ve moved and since I’ve moved I get told how the MDMA that they’ve been finding has such a “methy stimmy” vibe despite testing legit.  Could be cut, who knows...

In the end, I think I agree with Phobos.. You can probably source good product in both places, but it’s a discerning eye, a knowledgeable confident attitude, and of course a test kit on hand at time of purchase and/or online reviews depending which route you take.

I think the attitude thing plays big, online you can’t really show them your not one to be punked, everyone is on the same playing field.  In person you can very quickly show who you are and what you expect.  Having people skills helps a lot too obviously.

Nowadays I’ve got guys I’ve met years ago that I barely remember who will come up to me out of the blue and offer to sell, talking about old times I can hardly recall, and usually there is no hassle anymore.  I’ve been part of a scene for so long that my face simply finds me shit.  I fully realize that my absolute love for MDMA at an early age allowed me to grow up in a community where good product is the norm and love/compassion still exist.

To add on to that, the guys I deal with always have smaller amounts..  The most I can usually ever pick up is 3.5-7g tops of any particular batch.  I’m assuming much smaller productions compared to the kilos you can easily buy from NL.  The mints I talk about from 2008-2013 were also smaller production, you could find jars rarely but you had to be well connected and they were never cheap.

I’ll be rolling on Thanksgiving or the day after for sure, can’t wait..  It’ll be my last time for a good 6mos or so.

Been reading over this thread again and I find it interesting that a number of older users had found pills from the 90’s that still kicked their ass same as before.  What I would give to come across one old 90’s pill...

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> Nowadays I’ve got guys I’ve met years ago that I barely remember who will come up to me out of the blue and offer to sell, talking about old times I can hardly recall, and usually there is no hassle anymore. I’ve been part of a scene for so long that my face simply finds me shit. I fully realize that my absolute love for MDMA at an early age allowed me to grow up in a community where good product is the norm and love/compassion still exist.



Jealous, @G_Chem. I thought I had fallen into a community like that at a young age. Found a group of people who all rolled and threw parties and went to shows. First met up with them when I was 19. But over time, it turned out that it was just a phase for all of them, and they went down this horrifying path of bar nights and suburban mediocrity. Sometimes I really long for that feeling of being surrounded by a like-minded community that values the same experiences.


----------



## AutoTripper

Hey guys and girls. It's really cool to see the positive momentum this thread is picking up up increasingly even if there are no obvious or solid answers yet, so much is being highlighted and examined and brought under spotlight.

I will be watching with increased interest and genuine excitement because I honestly expect some explanations to come to surface as a direct result of the effort here, and this, once substantiated, WILL change the world as far as MDMA production is concerned.

I would hope so anyway.

However, I just offer one point here now. I don't feel I can make any constructive contribution to this thread, but on the redosing- not disagreeing with what you guys are saying at all in the context you are referring to with the current situation and qualit example, but just because somebody is redosing or feeling the need or making the decision to doesn't necessarily mean it is not magic MDMA.

I was a foolish and insane redoser. I mean it wasn't until I had been taking MDMA for several years that I remember coming across some information somewhere randomly online describing very vaguely how it was more harmful to the brain and serotonergic system to take 200mg of MDMA split into two separate doses 1-hour apart than it was to take 200 mg in one single dose.

So that was the first time I was ever alerted to the concept of redosing and neurotoxicity.

I mean it should have been naturally obvious and common sense tells us how drugs are affecting us as we go along and this is feedback enough I was just just a crazy psychonaut.

Nice and high on good weed here tonight after a great 650ug 1cP-Lsd trip. 
Keep up the digging guys I'm still following.


----------



## Phobos

G_Chem said:


> Yea the whole redosing desire thing I’ve never understood...  This must be another indicator that the product around me is “magic.” I’ve never fiend for a redose, and usually I have to force it on myself because I know I’ll be bummed come the end when I could have had an extra hour or two from the booster.
> 
> Even some of my most fiend like friends have never had an issue with it.  Snort K all day long, eat paper like it’s going outta style, but don’t seem to feel the need to over do the MDMA.
> 
> If I was fiending for a redose..  I’d be worried it was something else.
> 
> So I got some friends that essentially rely on me for a good amount of their experiences, mainly because of my knowledge but also my ability to procure said goodies as well.  I’ve moved and since I’ve moved I get told how the MDMA that they’ve been finding has such a “methy stimmy” vibe despite testing legit.  Could be cut, who knows...
> 
> In the end, I think I agree with Phobos.. You can probably source good product in both places, but it’s a discerning eye, a knowledgeable confident attitude, and of course a test kit on hand at time of purchase and/or online reviews depending which route you take.
> 
> I think the attitude thing plays big, online you can’t really show them your not one to be punked, everyone is on the same playing field.  In person you can very quickly show who you are and what you expect.  Having people skills helps a lot too obviously.
> 
> Nowadays I’ve got guys I’ve met years ago that I barely remember who will come up to me out of the blue and offer to sell, talking about old times I can hardly recall, and usually there is no hassle anymore.  I’ve been part of a scene for so long that my face simply finds me shit.  I fully realize that my absolute love for MDMA at an early age allowed me to grow up in a community where good product is the norm and love/compassion still exist.
> 
> To add on to that, the guys I deal with always have smaller amounts..  The most I can usually ever pick up is 3.5-7g tops of any particular batch.  I’m assuming much smaller productions compared to the kilos you can easily buy from NL.  The mints I talk about from 2008-2013 were also smaller production, you could find jars rarely but you had to be well connected and they were never cheap.
> 
> I’ll be rolling on Thanksgiving or the day after for sure, can’t wait..  It’ll be my last time for a good 6mos or so.
> 
> Been reading over this thread again and I find it interesting that a number of older users had found pills from the 90’s that still kicked their ass same as before.  What I would give to come across one old 90’s pill...
> 
> -GC



Generally I steer clear of cola and big fused/MSM rocks.
This looks visually legit to me.



Phobos said:


> MagicDMA. The crystals look genuine to me as opposed to fused. This colour is pretty rare IME. Smell is almost absent, if you stick your nose in the bag a hint of sweet liquorice can be detected.


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> Yea the whole redosing desire thing I’ve never understood...  This must be another indicator that the product around me is “magic.” I’ve never fiend for a redose, and usually I have to force it on myself because I know I’ll be bummed come the end when I could have had an extra hour or two from the booster.
> 
> Even some of my most fiend like friends have never had an issue with it.  Snort K all day long, eat paper like it’s going outta style, but don’t seem to feel the need to over do the MDMA.
> 
> If I was fiending for a redose..  I’d be worried it was something else.
> 
> So I got some friends that essentially rely on me for a good amount of their experiences, mainly because of my knowledge but also my ability to procure said goodies as well.  I’ve moved and since I’ve moved I get told how the MDMA that they’ve been finding has such a “methy stimmy” vibe despite testing legit.  Could be cut, who knows...
> 
> In the end, I think I agree with Phobos.. You can probably source good product in both places, but it’s a discerning eye, a knowledgeable confident attitude, and of course a test kit on hand at time of purchase and/or online reviews depending which route you take.
> 
> I think the attitude thing plays big, online you can’t really show them your not one to be punked, everyone is on the same playing field.  In person you can very quickly show who you are and what you expect.  Having people skills helps a lot too obviously.
> 
> Nowadays I’ve got guys I’ve met years ago that I barely remember who will come up to me out of the blue and offer to sell, talking about old times I can hardly recall, and usually there is no hassle anymore.  I’ve been part of a scene for so long that my face simply finds me shit.  I fully realize that my absolute love for MDMA at an early age allowed me to grow up in a community where good product is the norm and love/compassion still exist.
> 
> To add on to that, the guys I deal with always have smaller amounts..  The most I can usually ever pick up is 3.5-7g tops of any particular batch.  I’m assuming much smaller productions compared to the kilos you can easily buy from NL.  The mints I talk about from 2008-2013 were also smaller production, you could find jars rarely but you had to be well connected and they were never cheap.
> 
> I’ll be rolling on Thanksgiving or the day after for sure, can’t wait..  It’ll be my last time for a good 6mos or so.
> 
> Been reading over this thread again and I find it interesting that a number of older users had found pills from the 90’s that still kicked their ass same as before.  What I would give to come across one old 90’s pill...
> 
> -GC




Nowadays I’ve got guys I’ve met years ago that I barely remember who will come up to me out of the blue and offer to sell, talking about old times I can hardly recall, and usually there is no hassle anymore.  I’ve been part of a scene for so long that my face simply finds me shit.  I fully realize that my absolute love for MDMA at an early age allowed me to grow up in a community where good product is the norm and love/compassion still exist.

yeah I remember going to a reallly small hippy festival in california. I ran into a friend, who knew a friend and I was able to get some 2CB which is fucking hard as fuck to find without the onions. But I know what you mean being connected.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Hilopsilo said:


> Another point on that topic, shooting MDMA is not very popular among IV drug users, from what I've read its basically too intense, it becomes dysphoric and uncomfortable. I imagine taking a massive oral dose has the same problem.



IV shots of stuff that currently tests positive for MDMA also seem to lack “depth” - at least compared to 90’s pills. I don’t know if that is the product or the ROA. But usually just a 30 second horrible rush followed by a vague warmth and cheeriness with undertones of speed and no emotional resonance.


----------



## Negi

vash445 said:


> No just a large % is meh it seems like those blue punishers are fire... better then checkpoint


The blue punishers were 300mg, at least for the first few batches. Things like gurning and nystagmus are strongly correlated with dose, you constantly hear people in the UK talking about how great their gurn was despite being at ground zero for the NL MDMA everyone claims is meh.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vash445 said:


> No just a large % is meh it seems like those blue punishers are fire... better then checkpoint


the OG press of blue punishers in early 2017 were magic heavy roll 300 mg +. Later on they became counterfiet some people here decided to add pcp to them the fucking cooked cunts.


----------



## babooon87

TripSitterNZ said:


> the OG press of blue punishers in early 2017 were magic heavy roll 300 mg +. Later on they became counterfiet some people here decided to add pcp to them the fucking cooked cunts.


 Pcp in rolls ? Has this been confirmed by tests ? I know ketamine has seldomly been used as a cut but pcp ? Atypical for sure.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

babooon87 said:


> Pcp in rolls ? Has this been confirmed by tests ? I know ketamine has seldomly been used as a cut but pcp ? Atypical for sure.


well i personally knew the cunt who repressed a bunch here with pcp to give them a wild experince


----------



## babooon87

TripSitterNZ said:


> well i personally knew the cunt who repressed a bunch here with pcp to give them a wild experince


Yeah I don't doubt for a minute that it would be a pretty wild experience. People taking multiple of these probably ended up very far out. How much pcp was in each pill ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

babooon87 said:


> Yeah I don't doubt for a minute that it would be a pretty wild experience. People taking multiple of these probably ended up very far out. How much pcp was in each pill ?


14 mg i had another friend try them and watched him on it pretty much made ya dance like a shcizo psychotic for hours on end after seeing it first hand i was no way in hell going to try them. total mania


----------



## babooon87

TripSitterNZ said:


> 14 mg i had another friend try them and watched him on it pretty much made ya dance like a shcizo psychotic for hours on end after seeing it first hand i was no way in hell going to try them. total mania


14 !! Shit, that's a large amount per pill. Must have resulted in pretty off behaviors when this batch was around. What was the reasoning of the guy for putting that into the pills ? Did people enjoy them more ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

babooon87 said:


> 14 !! Shit, that's a large amount per pill. Must have resulted in pretty off behaviors when this batch was around. What was the reasoning of the guy for putting that into the pills ? Did people enjoy them more ?


Guy is a heavy junkie / drug user i think it was less than 100 pills that became repressed with that. He did let them know they had pcp in them. People just love reaching a new high level of getting fucked up here. Only some heavy drug users said it was more enjoyable but warned it would make you psychotic even twelve hours later.


----------



## babooon87

TripSitterNZ said:


> Guy is a heavy junkie / drug user i think it was less than 100 pills that became repressed with that. He did let them know they had pcp in them. People just love reaching a new high level of getting fucked up here. Only some heavy drug users said it was more enjoyable but warned it would make you psychotic even twelve hours later.


Ok, at least he was telling people what he put in there. That fact alone makes the whole story much less sketchy.


----------



## SunriseChampion

The suspected proppa MDMA I was supposed to be getting this past week won't be ready until mid-to-late-December and I'm going to have to wait another two weeks or so after that to get my amount.

So I won't even be able to send it for testing til sometime in January. I was so stoked to have answers well before Christmas and to potentially have my hands on decent amounts of proppa MDMA again after a decade. Dammit.

Oh well, I guess two months isn't that long to wait after so long.


----------



## phenethylo J

TripSitterNZ said:


> well i personally knew the cunt who repressed a bunch here with pcp to give them a wild experince



Like regular pcp or like 3meo-pcp because I wasn't aware that pcp made it's rounds to your part of the world.

once on one of the pill report sites saw a capsule that tested positive for like 20 substances ranging from mxe analogs, to cathoines, to 5meo-dipt. Really want to believe it was just some curious guy testing out the facilities testing capabilities and that they weren't actually being sold.


----------



## Negi

phenethylo J said:


> Like regular pcp or like 3meo-pcp because I wasn't aware that pcp made it's rounds to your part of the world.
> 
> once on one of the pill report sites saw a capsule that tested positive for like 20 substances ranging from mxe analogs, to cathoines, to 5meo-dipt. Really want to believe it was just some curious guy testing out the facilities testing capabilities and that they weren't actually being sold.


Pretty sure that was a hack to get the most out of ecstasydata for the money. Put the substances in at a known ratio and you can get multiple different identifications for the price of one.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Pretty sure that was a hack to get the most out of ecstasydata for the money. Put the substances in at a known ratio and you can get multiple different identifications for the price of one.



Very unlikely to happen, and if someone did do it you’d very likely see close or spot on identical ratios for each one for a number or reasons.  Also many of these samples with lots of active constituents are presses..

This practice of throwing together a hodgepodge of substances isn’t new.  I remember seeing some pills with all sorts of crap in them, especially around 09-11 with the drought.

Shit like piperazines of all sorts mixed with 5-MeO-DiPT, benzocyclidine, tiny amount of MDMA to fool it, some cathinones for good measure..

Pressers often don’t try these mixtures out on a “focus group” to see if they even enjoyable.  They just guess and hope for the best.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

phenethylo J said:


> Like regular pcp or like 3meo-pcp because I wasn't aware that pcp made it's rounds to your part of the world.
> 
> once on one of the pill report sites saw a capsule that tested positive for like 20 substances ranging from mxe analogs, to cathoines, to 5meo-dipt. Really want to believe it was just some curious guy testing out the facilities testing capabilities and that they weren't actually being sold.


regular pcp. PCP is still around these parts in very limited amounts a few grams at most would pop up in area usually comes from asia. There is a massive Chinese drug lord whos triad syndicate runs a bunch of drugs into NZ australia and the region. Includes meth, ketamine and some other pharmaceuticals.


----------



## mdmeidus

any idea about 'white fluff'? I have only had champange colour and dark cola colour and some really clear crystal without any colour, but I haven't seen white fluff before. Is it even crystal or just powder mixed up with something?


----------



## indigoaura

Just updating everyone that two of my meh samples are on the way to @vash445 . I am looking forward to seeing the results.


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> Very unlikely to happen, and if someone did do it you’d very likely see close or spot on identical ratios for each one for a number or reasons.  Also many of these samples with lots of active constituents are presses..
> 
> This practice of throwing together a hodgepodge of substances isn’t new.  I remember seeing some pills with all sorts of crap in them, especially around 09-11 with the drought.
> 
> Shit like piperazines of all sorts mixed with 5-MeO-DiPT, benzocyclidine, tiny amount of MDMA to fool it, some cathinones for good measure..
> 
> Pressers often don’t try these mixtures out on a “focus group” to see if they even enjoyable.  They just guess and hope for the best.
> 
> -GC


This is talking about capsules though. Pretty sure this is the one they were remembering: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6098
The "ladder" in terms of the ratio of the substances makes me suspicious, along with the fact that except for the caffeine all of the ingredients are research chemicals.
When it was discussed on reddit someone even mentioned using that exact method:


> I do that, only have to pay for 1 testing but can get 6-8 chems tested at once with decent results if you keep track of how mnay parts of what chem you put in.


----------



## phenethylo J

yea that was actually the exact one I was thinking about


----------



## Brnoxoxo

tarzan119 said:


> If there were metrics (let's say: 1 out of 10 with the larger number being the greatest effect) to determine these physical observations for each category, real magic MDMA would rate a 10 across the board, every single time, by virtually everyone who had it.



If you read for example This study, they used several scales to determine the effects of 3 different drugs including MDMA. The scale from 1-10 is basically the same as VAS (Visual analogue scale) which use 1-100. It might be a good idea to do such "study" without having any ethical issues that academic workers have to deal with and after the study is done, send it to selected scientists and maybe some of them will be interested enough to try to replicate this on animals and bring this mehDMA vs. MagicDMA problem to a higher level. I've met and talked to 3 people with PhD. that are working with drugs like MDMA and all of them told me that for mehDMA vs. MagicDMA is no evidence.


----------



## indigoaura

> I've met and talked to 3 people with PhD. that are working with drugs like MDMA and all of them told me that for mehDMA vs. MagicDMA is no evidence.



There have been links posted here to multiple research studies that demonstrate a quantifiable difference in MDMA samples due to contaminants, despite appearing to be MDMA on commonly available tests (GCMS). Although these studies present the lab side of the conversation, they lack the user experience piece. 

From the article you posted, "MDMA acutely induces feelings of well-being, love, empathy, and prosociality [14, 15], and produces mild perceptual alterations that are thought to be primarily mediated by the release of serotonin (5-HT) [16, 17] and norepinephrine [18], and the direct activation of 5-HT2A receptors [19]."

What we have been discussing here is that some lab tested "MDMA" does not produce "feelings of well-being, love, empathy, and prosociality."

I also noted in the link that you posted that, "Preferred recreational doses are slightly lower and in the range of 80–120 mg" and that a 125 mg dose should produce "the full range of empathogenic MDMA-typical effects." From the user reports posted to this thread, "meh-DMA" is not fully active at 80-120 mg, with some users reporting substandard effects at doses up to 155 mg.  

So, if research demonstrates that those are the effects/dose of MDMA, but MDMA is not producing the documented effects (across multiple users), then "what is wrong the MDMA?"

Now, admittedly, perhaps a better question is "What is wrong with the testing of MDMA?" as it is seeming more and more clear that testing methodologies are missing contaminants and/or impostor substances.

In any case, thanks for posting the link. I will read it more closely and go over the scale. Perhaps posters to this thread can begin to use the scale to share user reports.


----------



## indigoaura

Interestingly, that study took me to this study:









						Effects of MDMA alone and after pretreatment with reboxetine, duloxetine, clonidine, carvedilol, and doxazosin on pupillary light reflex - PubMed
					

The MDMA-induced prolongation of the latency to and reduction of light-induced miosis indicate indirect central parasympathetic inhibition, and the faster recovery time reflects an increased sympathomimetic action. Both norepinephrine and serotonin mediate the effects of MDMA on pupillary...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




This study demonstrates that 125 mg of MDMA "produced mydriasis" but that "Both reboxetine and duloxetine interacted with the effects of MDMA on pupillary function."

IMO, this goes along with the study we were discussing a few pages back that showed the contaminants having an effect at the receptor level to reduce the effects of MDMA.
(https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426)


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Brnoxoxo said:


> I've met and talked to 3 people with PhD. that are working with drugs like MDMA and all of them told me that for mehDMA vs. MagicDMA is no evidence.



In addition to everything that @indigoaura said, the existence of the phrase mehDMA came about because of the evidence from user reports of a difference in different batches.  So to say there is no evidence is clearly wrong.  Does the dataset of user reports in this thread meet a quality threshold acceptable for publication in a journal - no, but it is a starting point.  The analyses that have been published in this thread plus supporting papers looking at different aspects of problem will hopefully reach the point where a researcher is convinced that a full investigation is worth doing.  So far we haven't brought someone into this discussion who is all of: passionate about finding an answer, has access to the right equipment and skills to generate a definitive dataset, and who has the license to handle the material and funding to do so.  Not yet...


----------



## indigoaura

@ThreePointCircle I also think it is interesting to note that based on all the evidence we are seeing so far, it looks like the issue is undetected contaminants, or some type of isomer substance that is not being detected. So, as has always been the case, MDMA is MDMA (when it is MDMA). The problem is that drug testing services provide the illusion that some products are pure MDMA when they aren't. When those products fail to produce the documented effects of MDMA at documented full doses, it is confusing and alarming. It also seems that these sub-par products have saturated some markets due to questionable mass production. Whether this is due to insidious intent, or lazy/botched chemistry is anyone's guess.


----------



## indigoaura

After I get the results from @vash445, if he finds contaminants in Sample B, I am going to send Sample B to Drugs Data and see if they note any contaminants. I also had the idea that it would be pretty easy to obtain some of these 300+ mg "Dutch" pills, and then send one off to Drugs Data and one to Vash445. Since I have contact info for Drugs Data, if Vash is finding contaminants that they are missing, I could inform them. Maybe, after several instances of their analysis not finding the contaminant, that would be enough evidence for them to really look at how to improve their process. And, maybe knowing specifically what is being found and how it is being found, that could point them in the right direction. 

All we need, IMO, is for any of these major harm reduction labs to acknowledge that there is a new contaminant that fools reagent tests and GCMS, and that new methodology will be used to detect it. Once one major player makes the announcement, the others will follow.


----------



## Phobos

Brnoxoxo said:


> If you read for example This study, they used several scales to determine the effects of 3 different drugs including MDMA. The scale from 1-10 is basically the same as VAS (Visual analogue scale) which use 1-100. It might be a good idea to do such "study" without having any ethical issues that academic workers have to deal with and after the study is done, send it to selected scientists and maybe some of them will be interested enough to try to replicate this on animals and bring this mehDMA vs. MagicDMA problem to a higher level. *I've met and talked to 3 people with PhD. that are working with drugs like MDMA and all of them told me that for mehDMA vs. MagicDMA is no evidence.*



I understand their position and why they said that, but the thing is that there has been research into synthesis byproducts, and research into how MDMA affects humans, but it would be basically impossible to do human testing of synthesis byproducts in combination with MDMA. So there can be no scientific paper that describes the issue.
But some of the people in this thread are conducting private testing and they might create the context where one or more previously undetected synthesis byproducts might be studied for their receptor activity in vitro in instance.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> From the user reports posted to this thread, "meh-DMA" is not fully active at 80-120 mg, with some users reporting substandard effects at doses up to 155 mg.



I would add that 'mehDMA' is not 'fully active' at ANY dose. It is not a dose issue, it is a quality issue. 

These Dutch 'superstrength' pills are trying to compensate for lack of quality with quantity. It doesn't work...


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> @ThreePointCircle I also think it is interesting to note that based on all the evidence we are seeing so far, it looks like the issue is undetected contaminants, or some type of isomer substance that is not being detected. So, as has always been the case, MDMA is MDMA (when it is MDMA). The problem is that drug testing services provide the illusion that some products are pure MDMA when they aren't. When those products fail to produce the documented effects of MDMA at documented full doses, it is confusing and alarming. It also seems that these sub-par products have saturated some markets due to questionable mass production. Whether this is due to insidious intent, or lazy/botched chemistry is anyone's guess.


I do like the almost simplicity of this concept and potential explanation.

From when I first got into substances age 16 onwards I have memories of contemplating exactly this and what made some tabs pills etc much more potent and effective than others.

And even then in 1996 97 there was the concept of many drugs simply not being as good as they used to be.

Obviously, dilution has always been a massive Factor but then I always felt that there was something else like when you you have the same dose of the exact same substance but contaminated in some way or at least watered down and binded at the same time, that it effectively will be mediocre in comparison.

So I have visions and memories of of picturing this when I encountered many very poor quality MDMA pills in my initial years when finding really good old school ecstasy pills was a novelty for a while.

But as my years of pill taking went by, especially from 2000's onwards, I did encounter many really poor MDMA pills which were so lacking in experience and to me were pretty MEH while at the same time I would still will get the absolute fire pure MDMA magic pills and Crystal powder etc.

But there were many batches of pills when nothing else was around which would make me sick not physically but mentally because there was just nothing there to resemble the true MDMA but I'm confident that they were MDMA for the most part.

I think I subconsciously assumed it was related to impurities without giving it much thought.

So meh MDMA was arguably surfacing and evolving long back, just not raising much collective attention.

Like, people would just know when pills were "shit", so...avoid, or lump it, or look elsewhere.

With a will, good beans were still everywhere. And nobody who had experienced legit MDMA enough times, could ever fail to distinguish. But tgerevwas a distinction, which is my point here.


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper I think the distinction is that "back then" when we got bad pills, we assumed that a lab would show it was DXM, or meth, or whatever. I sent in "bad pills" and the lab showed "bad results." Only once did I send in a "bad pill" and have the lab tell me it was MDMA. At the time, I chalked it up to "set and setting," even though I took some different pills the same night and rolled fine. There just wasn't a concept of MDMA that had lackluster effects. We assumed it was either bunk (another substance entirely), or good (MDMA).


----------



## andyturbo

A few days ago:

"Australian police have played a key role in an international drug bust that's prevented 700kg of crystalline MDMA from reaching Brisbane, possibly to end up with Schoolies.

Australian Federal Police and Queensland police worked with officers in The Netherlands and Belgium to intercept a huge haul of the drug in the Dutch city of Rotterdam in late August.

That one shipment, bound for Queensland, netted 700kg of crystalline MDMA. Other raids at 15 locations in The Netherlands and Belgium earlier this month uncovered secret drug labs and more drugs.

In all, 850kg of crystalline MDMA was seized, along with 548 litres of MDMA oil and 400 litres of precursor chemicals."



MDMA Oil- Would that be Safarole..? 
I will shortly get a sample out of this lot^ if anyones willing to lab test it I will send it your way. 

 
 

Sorry to go a bit off topic.

A.T


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> @AutoTripper I think the distinction is that "back then" when we got bad pills, we assumed that a lab would show it was DXM, or meth, or whatever. I sent in "bad pills" and the lab showed "bad results." Only once did I send in a "bad pill" and have the lab tell me it was MDMA. At the time, I chalked it up to "set and setting," even though I took some different pills the same night and rolled fine. There just wasn't a concept of MDMA that had lackluster effects. We assumed it was either bunk (another substance entirely), or good (MDMA).


Yes but this is a point I'm making I personally am 100-percent certain that I encountered many crap pill which were not other substances but MDMA and probably low quantity but there was something not right about it where quantity could never make up for lack of quality but it was definitely MDMA or at least some sort of MDMA and not the other suspected compounds.

Your own experience might have been different with the inferior pills you encountered more commonly being another substance altogether.

That is not what I'm referring to in my own experience though. I can assure anyone that there were inferior MDMA pills a long time before 2005, and in the context I have described it above with regarding the undeniable distinction, it was definitely not assumed that the pills were a different substance as being the explanation. 

That did occur a lot also of course, but was a separate matter.


----------



## vash445

andyturbo said:


> A few days ago:
> 
> "Australian police have played a key role in an international drug bust that's prevented 700kg of crystalline MDMA from reaching Brisbane, possibly to end up with Schoolies.
> 
> Australian Federal Police and Queensland police worked with officers in The Netherlands and Belgium to intercept a huge haul of the drug in the Dutch city of Rotterdam in late August.
> 
> That one shipment, bound for Queensland, netted 700kg of crystalline MDMA. Other raids at 15 locations in The Netherlands and Belgium earlier this month uncovered secret drug labs and more drugs.
> 
> In all, 850kg of crystalline MDMA was seized, along with 548 litres of MDMA oil and 400 litres of precursor chemicals."
> 
> 
> 
> MDMA Oil- Would that be Safarole..?
> I will shortly get a sample out of this lot^ if anyones willing to lab test it I will send it your way.
> 
> View attachment 17900 View attachment 17901
> View attachment 17903 View attachment 17904
> 
> Sorry to go a bit off topic.
> 
> A.T




NO MDMA OIL is FREEBASE MDMA oil. It's a liquid, They do that for AMPH as well. Just add .hcl...


----------



## vash445

andyturbo said:


> A few days ago:
> 
> "Australian police have played a key role in an international drug bust that's prevented 700kg of crystalline MDMA from reaching Brisbane, possibly to end up with Schoolies.
> 
> Australian Federal Police and Queensland police worked with officers in The Netherlands and Belgium to intercept a huge haul of the drug in the Dutch city of Rotterdam in late August.
> 
> That one shipment, bound for Queensland, netted 700kg of crystalline MDMA. Other raids at 15 locations in The Netherlands and Belgium earlier this month uncovered secret drug labs and more drugs.
> 
> In all, 850kg of crystalline MDMA was seized, along with 548 litres of MDMA oil and 400 litres of precursor chemicals."
> 
> 
> 
> MDMA Oil- Would that be Safarole..?
> I will shortly get a sample out of this lot^ if anyones willing to lab test it I will send it your way.
> 
> View attachment 17900 View attachment 17901
> View attachment 17903 View attachment 17904
> 
> Sorry to go a bit off topic.
> 
> A.T


Would be nice to get a sample doubtful thou


----------



## vecktor

andyturbo said:


> MDMA Oil- Would that be Safarole..?
> I will shortly get a sample out of this lot^ if anyones willing to lab test it I will send it your way.


MDMA oil is crude freebase MDMA.

 Quite why law enforcement like to make this distinction is baffling. I think it has something to do with US/AUS retarded obsession with crystal this and crystal that, as being something special.

the photos show a catalytic hydrogenation process. So that would be a PMK process.

there is a video out there,  complete with heroic music and knuckle head foot soldiers with tactical gear and big necks.


----------



## andyturbo

vecktor said:


> MDMA oil is crude freebase MDMA.
> 
> Quite why law enforcement like to make this distinction is baffling. I think it has something to do with US/AUS retarded obsession with crystal this and crystal that, as being something special.
> .



Australia and the US are completely different countries and very much so in drug terms ect

I don't see anything weird about saying 750kg in crystalline form and 517L in oil?

Its completely relevant to the article, as it was going to be imported too Australia. Being solid/liquid plays an effect in importation methods.


----------



## vecktor

andyturbo said:


> Australia and the US are completely different countries and very much so in drug terms ect
> 
> I don't see anything weird about saying 750kg in crystalline form and 517L in oil?
> 
> Its completely relevant to the article, as it was going to be imported too Australia. Being solid/liquid plays an effect in importation methods.



Indeed AUS and the US are completely different looking countries, perhaps like a gimp and gimp master. For whatever reason like the USA Australia has gone down the blue-nosed rabbit hole of prohibition with a vengeance. 

explain me this why Australian reporting has an obseession with crystal meth, with the emphasis on crystal.

it is extremely unlikely freebase oil was going to be imported as oil.


----------



## andyturbo

Because aka crystal 'methamphetamine' is a fucking huge problem here. More methamphetamine users per capita than any other country.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vecktor said:


> Indeed AUS and the US are completely different looking countries, perhaps like a gimp and gimp master. For whatever reason like the USA Australia has gone down the blue-nosed rabbit hole of prohibition with a vengeance.
> 
> explain me this why Australian reporting has an obseession with crystal meth, with the emphasis on crystal.
> 
> it is extremely unlikely freebase oil was going to be imported as oil.


freebase oil has been imported many times in australia as a sneakier way to get it in. The people on the ground then take it their labs usally in NSW or QLD and do the conversion to HCL  crystal


----------



## Phobos

vecktor said:


> it is extremely unlikely freebase oil was going to be imported as oil.



I have no idea whether importing MDMA freebase is normally done or not, but if you start with 517kg of oil you'll end up with over 600kg of crystals, and that's a significant difference in weight and volume to hide.


----------



## vecktor

TripSitterNZ said:


> freebase oil has been imported many times in australia as a sneakier way to get it in. The people on the ground then take it their labs usally in NSW or QLD and do the conversion to HCL  crystal


AUS customs aren't very good then, because the base is smelly, caustic corrosive plus it smells of methylamine which is what sniffer dogs really smell when they are trained for meth and MDMA.
I'll speculate that the lab was not solely supplying Australian customers and was also supplying other more local groups including those that would buy the freebase to convert and press in NL, so the base might not have been destined for Australia at all.


----------



## vecktor

andyturbo said:


> Because aka crystal 'methamphetamine' is a fucking huge problem here. More methamphetamine users per capita than any other country.


more per capita tha NZ? there are only 4 people in NZ and one of them posts here, the other 3 are meth addicts.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

vecktor said:


> more per capita tha NZ? there are only 4 people in NZ and one of them posts here, the other 3 are meth addicts.


Haha, I think NZ and australia are on the same level with meth use per captia. In NZ the easiest drug to find on the streets is meth a trip to the supermarket and you will see probably at a minimum anywhere in the country at least 5 people wired out of their mind on meth their eyes wide open pinging hard. In poorer parts of the cities 12-14 year olds are running meth and dealing on the corner for gangs and also to feed their own meth addiction its quite fucked. Robbery is common place by meth heads. In a club at least 20% of the people in it will be on meth.


----------



## andyturbo

vecktor said:


> there are only 4 people in NZ and one of them posts here, the other 3 are meth addicts.



Haha


----------



## Specified

Is the stuff in the Netherlands any good?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Specified said:


> Is the stuff in the Netherlands any good?



No


----------



## Specified

ThreePointCircle said:


> No


Ahhhhhh damn I have some on the way but I haven't touched MDMA in like a year or something dunno can't remember lol


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Specified said:


> Is the stuff in the Netherlands any good?



I think it would be unfair to write off all Dutch MDMA as 'meh', but it would seem that modern mass production methods may be responsible for this 'different' product.

I see the Dutch as the IKEA of drug production:

Cheap, functional and very popular - yet unremarkable...


----------



## AutoTripper

Specified said:


> Ahhhhhh damn I have some on the way but I haven't touched MDMA in like a year or something dunno can't remember lol


I don't think your chances of acquiring magic MDMA have really declined much in the past 12 months. I think the situation has been fairly consistent how much is currently for some time now, that's the impression I seem to have but could well be wrong of course.

Who knows you may get lucky.


----------



## Specified

AutoTripper said:


> I don't think your chances of acquiring magic MDMA have really declined much in the past 12 months. I think the situation has been fairly consistent how much is currently for some time now, that's the impression I seem to have but could well be wrong of course.
> 
> Who knows you may get lucky.


We shall wait and see. Provided I haven't lost the magic and it makes it past customs


----------



## psy997

Specified said:


> We shall wait and see. Provided I haven't lost the magic and it makes it past customs



Losing the magic isn't as common a phenomena as it's made out to be.


----------



## Specified

psy997 said:


> Losing the magic isn't as common a phenomena as it's made out to be.


Yeah well last stuff I got must of been shit or just interacting with the meds I had been on blocking the effects. Used to mix it with Moclobemide, I know they say it's dangerous but it's an irreversible MAOI not a reversible MAOI so your safe and it was a massive high to just straight taking MDMA alone. Yes, I'm an idiot lol


----------



## TripSitterNZ

A very interesting insight video on mdma use in australia coming from holland


----------



## Specified

TripSitterNZ said:


> A very interesting insight video on mdma use in australia coming from holland


What violence? What killings?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Specified said:


> What violence? What killings?


Shit loads of killings in holland. Major gang wars go on all the time in south holland massive body count Assault rifles etc. The dutch police come across mass killing scene in drug flats alot involved in the mdma drug trade on weekly basis. The mafia intimdate polications by burning their houses down or police and threaten to kill their families and kids.


----------



## Specified

TripSitterNZ said:


> Shit loads of killings in holland. Major gang wars go on all the time in south holland massive body count Assault rifles etc. The dutch police come across mass killing scene in drug flats alot involved in the mdma drug trade on weekly basis. The mafia intimdate polications by burning their houses down or police and threaten to kill their families and kids.


Oh, I thought they were talking about violence and killings when people take pills.


----------



## vash445

TripSitterNZ said:


> Shit loads of killings in holland. Major gang wars go on all the time in south holland massive body count Assault rifles etc. The dutch police come across mass killing scene in drug flats alot involved in the mdma drug trade on weekly basis. The mafia intimdate polications by burning their houses down or police and threaten to kill their families and kids.


Something tells me checkpoint is mafia


----------



## vash445

Lets get back on topic you guys, at least until @vecktor come back with an extended 13c or

@indigoaura samples results come back

Structure-Activity Relationships of MDMA-Like Substances David E. Nichols and Robert Oberlender


INTRODUCTION There is virtually no one who is involved in drug abuse research, or who studies the properties of recreationally used drugs, that is not by now familiar with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) (figure 1). Over the past 4 years this substance, usually referred to in the popular press as “Ecstasy,” has received widespread media attention, This chapter will relate recent fmdings with respect to the potential dangers attendant on the use of MDMA and explore its pharmacological properties



			https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9b73/61c2422e5edb81849ad2dd023052438ec2f1.pdf


----------



## vash445

Sci-Hub | Structure-Activity Relationships of MDMA and Related Compounds: A New Class of Psychoactive Drugs? Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 600(1 The Neurophar), 613–623 | 10.1111/j.1749-6632.1990.tb16914.x
		


Structure- Activi t y Rela tionships of MDMA and Related Compounds: A New Class of Psychoactive Drugs?“ DAVID E. NICHOLS AND ROBERT OBERLENDER Department of Medicinal Chemistry and Pharmacognosy School of Pharmacy and Pharmacal Sciences Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana 47907 INTRODUCTION The popularity and illicit use of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA; “Ecstasy”) have been widely reported in the lay press over the past four years. As with any drug problem, scientific resources were quickly brought to bear on the study of MDMA, to examine such issues as toxicity, mechanism of action, reinforcing qualities, and dependence liability. Numerous studies have now been published dealing with all these areas. However, it seems that most of the research on MDMA has been directed toward study of its neurotoxicity, and the mechanism of this toxic effect.’ While interesting from a scientific viewpoint, and important because of the potential health risk to humans, interest in the neuronal damage resulting from high doses of MDMA has overshadowed the importance of studies on the basic psychopharmacology of behaviorally relevant doses. If one is to believe anecdotal user’s accounts, the effect of MDMA is substantially different from that produced by hallucinogenic drugs such as LSD or DOM. One can make the definition of “hallucinogenic” so broad that it includes virtually all psychoactive phenethylamine derivatives. However, minor structural variations in the ring-substituted phenethylamines may have effects on their psychopharmacology ranging from profound, to very subtle. Profound changes are easy to detect, but the failure to recognize the subtle differences may result in the loss of new drug leads. Thus, it would seem prudent to define drug classes as narrowly as possible. There seems little doubt that MDMA and similar substances, and the hallucinogenic amphetamines, alter serotonergic function in the central nervous system. However, they appear to do so in different ways. The fact that serotonin pathways are now recognized to be involved in modulation of various mood states, probably means that a variety of serotonergic and antiserotonergic drugs will ultimately be discovered that have specific effects on mental functioning. It has been known for a long time that


----------



## indigoaura

From Drugs Data today:



> Thanks for being patient (or not!).
> 
> I finally got two of our senior analytical chemists to look at this. Apparently my previous email to them in early October was eaten by The Black Maw of Infinite Nothingness.
> 
> As Sasha Shulgin used to say:
> 
> "A mass spectrum by itself is insufficient to reliably differentiate and identify substances. "
> 
> The use of multiple cross-over technologies and separatory functions such chromatographic methods along with MS make it possible to narrow down the likelihood of overlapping identifications. Without a published GC or LC elution time for the given isobaric / regiosomeric chemicals,
> 
> One of our experts who works analyzing the most-difficult-to-identify chemicals for the UK's customs and other police stuff (as well as being an academic researcher and long time friend of erowid) said that your questions are great and this is a well known problem in the field.
> 
> In order to confirm that they look the same in a GC/MC or LC/MS as the 3,4-MDMA, we'd need actual verified standards of each of the drug to run parallel through our system.
> 
> However, if not all those chemicals are available from certified labs, then someone could contact the author (yes it was a long time ago) and ask if they have any of their material catalog around that they could send us 1mg of each so we can run them in our equipment to build the library.
> 
> Our team's main guess is that either the GC or the IR will make it very obvious it's not the same chemical.
> 
> So, onwards!
> 
> earth


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 & @vecktor 

I am in communication with Drugs Data, and would like to update them on what your research has uncovered so far. Would you summarize which tests were run on the meh product, and which tests showed the impurity, and what your current best guess is regarding that impurity? I may even be able to get them involved in analyzing some of the reports. I scrolled back through the thread, but there has been A LOT of info regarding the sample Vash analyzed, and I do not want to summarize it incorrectly.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @vash445 & @vecktor
> 
> I am in communication with Drugs Data, and would like to update them on what your research has uncovered so far. Would you summarize which tests were run on the meh product, and which tests showed the impurity, and what your current best guess is regarding that impurity? I may even be able to get them involved in analyzing some of the reports. I scrolled back through the thread, but there has been A LOT of info regarding the sample Vash analyzed, and I do not want to summarize it incorrectly.



1H NMR showed the issue on peak 9 if i remember correctly. That's about the best I got


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Great work @indigoaura and thanks to Drugs Data for replying.  But...

Doesn't the content of the email speak volumes about the current situation?  There have been a couple of people on here who have said these analysis services are probably far from the quality level we would hope for and two things stick out from that message that, to me, back this up.  Firstly, the tone isn't very professional - super relaxed.  I haven't got a problem with that, and maybe it evolved from the correspondence, but it is surprising and makes the person look quite young and inexperienced.  Secondly, if this UK expert that they talked about really is working with the authorities to identify the most difficult chemicals, then she/he should be totally on top of this and should have already evaluated all the similar looking substances and worked out how to differentiate them.

Just doesn't quite add up to me.  I don't want to sound negative but it does come across as amateur from them and I don't get how that attitude/competence/experience manages to successfully get a license to handle prohibited substances.


----------



## Blowmonkey

^ Earth isn't exactly young anymore and I doubt he does the gc/ms testing himself, he just wrote the mail.


TripSitterNZ said:


> Shit loads of killings in holland. Major gang wars go on all the time in south holland massive body count Assault rifles etc. The dutch police come across mass killing scene in drug flats alot involved in the mdma drug trade on weekly basis.


Where? Mass killings? Don't believe everything you see or hear, this is greatly exaggerated.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea from brief communications in the past Earth seems like a chill guy easy to communicate with, don’t let his easy demeanor come off as lack of professionalism.  (Interestingly I contacted him in regards to some EData results from the 90’s.)

And he’s an old timer, having started Erowid and all.  Much respect for all he’s done.

Also maybe someone should write up a rough draft reply for ya Indigo? Like vektor or vash since they seems the most competent and familiar with these test results? We need a team effort to formulate a proper response because Earth is a busy guy and might just toss it out if there isn’t something there worth looking at.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Fair enough @Blowmonkey and @G_Chem and apologies to Earth.  Didn't know his background.  I still stick by what I said about the UK expert though.  If they are involved in forensics they're basically saying the government have only done half a job.  Unless they are just holding out on Drugs Data and haven't passed on the methodology (the expert that is).


----------



## indigoaura

> C13 showed the issue on peak 9 if i remember correctly. That's about the best I got



I don't know what this means. Was this on GCMS or another test? How many tests have been run on this product thus far? Where did the idea of the "dimer" come from? Would someone be able to write a full summary of what has been done with that meh sample?

Earth has been great. We have been corresponding back and forth for several months now, so any alteration in tone is probably due to that. He has been responsive and invested in our concerns. Way more professional that the people at IEC, who cannot even bother to continue replying to my emails and just ghost me.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, my big takeaway here is that we are absolutely correct in feeling concerned that some similar compounds could pass through testing unidentified. It sounds like these companies are mostly testing for KNOWN contaminants. They can tell you if your pill is DXM or MDXX, they can tell you if your pill is meth, but if they have not specifically added the product to the database, and it looks close enough, it could be misidentified.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> I don't know what this means. Was this on GCMS or another test? How many tests have been run on this product thus far? Where did the idea of the "dimer" come from? Would someone be able to write a full summary of what has been done with that meh sample?
> 
> Earth has been great. We have been corresponding back and forth for several months now, so any alteration in tone is probably due to that. He has been responsive and invested in our concerns. Way more professional that the people at IEC, who cannot even bother to continue replying to my emails and just ghost me.



Typical. There must be nothing more annoying for an 'expert' to be repeatedly asked questions he cannot answer. Furthermore, the expert's ego will not allow him to simply say "I don't know". He'd just rather ignore the question...


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> I don't know what this means. Was this on GCMS or another test? How many tests have been run on this product thus far? Where did the idea of the "dimer" come from? Would someone be able to write a full summary of what has been done with that meh sample?
> 
> Earth has been great. We have been corresponding back and forth for several months now, so any alteration in tone is probably due to that. He has been responsive and invested in our concerns. Way more professional that the people at IEC, who cannot even bother to continue replying to my emails and just ghost me.



GCMS is probably pointless which is why we ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI

This was on the 1H NMR.. not the 13C my bad... The idea for a dimmer came from. Because The MALDI came up 193.25 g/mol the mol weight of MDMA.

This batch of MDMA it a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA both 1H and 13C which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.

Both together was "enough" to prove it was MDMA in his eyes till I said did you get high. He said no. Thats about all I got for ya from @vecktor  (and please note I could be 100% wrong)


----------



## vash445

The other thing is what NMR guy said.  That mystery peak is an impurity and is likely part of the same molecule that the new mini peak at 207 is part of......And we see that a peak at 207 .....An aldehyde or ketone!!!!!  Yeaaaa!!!! !Your friends analysis is all correct but still doesn't tell us what's happening (as in C=O Still attached carbonyl or ketone) or R(CO)R in the picture below from what I can decipher on my own. He is just as confused as I am. It has carbonyl impurities, It's structure seems very close to what it should look like in nmr but not quite...






This should be noted it is confusing as fuck for me so if someone like @vecktor or @Glubrahnum can feel to correct me any time.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Blowmonkey said:


> ^ Earth isn't exactly young anymore and I doubt he does the gc/ms testing himself, he just wrote the mail.
> 
> Where? Mass killings? Don't believe everything you see or hear, this is greatly exaggerated.


Lol i have family who are dutch police officers and they have came across flats with 3-4 dead bodies in it a result of gang violence. not to mention the amount of bodies never found killed by the mafia in holland


----------



## indigoaura

Ok, so I could summarize something like this (please add your comments):

_A sub-par, "meh" sample was submitted for testing. The testers ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI.

The MALDI came up 193.25 g/mol the mol weight of MDMA.

This batch of MDMA is a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA (both 1H and 13C) which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.

1H NMR showed the issue on peak 9. Also, there is a mini peak at 207. Perhaps an an aldehyde or ketone. Overall, the sample has carbonyl impurities. The structure seems very close to what MDMA should look like in NMR but not quite. _


----------



## psy997

I say wait for Glubra and Vektor to respond.


----------



## indigoaura

psy997 said:


> I saw wait for Glubra and Vektor to respond.


I have not seen @Glubrahnum in the thread for quite some time. Hope he returns soon. I will wait for @vecktor to comment before I send anything.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> From Drugs Data today:





indigoaura said:


> Ok, so I could summarize something like this (please add your comments):
> 
> _A sub-par, "meh" sample was submitted for testing. The testers ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI.
> 
> The MALDI came up 193.25 g/mol the mol weight of MDMA.
> 
> This batch of MDMA is a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA (both 1H and 13C) which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.
> 
> 1H NMR showed the issue on peak 9. Also, there is a mini peak at 207. Perhaps an an aldehyde or ketone. Overall, the sample has carbonyl impurities. The structure seems very close to what MDMA should look like in NMR but not quite. _



Mini peak on 207. Is on the 13c I believe. But the rest looks/seems correct to me. If no response in 1-3 days. I'll send the summary to my NMR guy and see if it's fairly accurate.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> Ok, so I could summarize something like this (please add your comments):
> 
> _A sub-par, "meh" sample was submitted for testing. The testers ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI.
> 
> The MALDI came up 193.25 g/mol the mol weight of MDMA.
> 
> This batch of MDMA *is *a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA (both 1H and 13C) which means it *has* to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because *there are no* *isomers of MDMA which have the same mass* and the same NMR spectrum.
> 
> 1H NMR showed the issue on peak 9. Also, there is a mini peak at 207. Perhaps an an aldehyde or ketone. Overall, the sample has carbonyl impurities. The structure seems very close to what MDMA should look like in NMR but not quite. _



I agree wait for either of the people who really know what most of this means, but either way I'd say just for the sake of being scientifically honest we need to change wording to be "We have a hypothesis that..." rather than "is" or "has to". We don't know this for sure, so we shouldnt phrase it as if we do, I think in general professionals will be more likely to lend their ear and take it seriously if we're not making big claims that we haven't proven yet

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what vecktor wrote was that isomers do not have the same NMR spectrum, even if they have the same mass. We know for sure there are isomers of MDMA that have the same mass, that they exist, but vecktor didn't seem to see any such isomers like that in the first NMR results.


----------



## indigoaura

Received my results from International Energy Control today for the product I plan to consume on NYE. I am hoping that they have not fully updated my results yet, because I paid for a full PDF report that was supposed to show which tests were run and provide full graphs for each test. All I see right now is "MDMA 80%." That is it. It does not say MDMA HCI or provide any additional information. I paid a whopping $120 Euros for this test, which was supposed to include "a complete PDF report including the raw graphs and data from the techniques used." So far, disappointed. 

What do you make of the result? No adulterants noted. I was definitely hoping for more than 80% though, especially since this product is supposedly washed and re-crystallized.


----------



## vecktor

Hilopsilo said:


> I agree wait for either of the people who really know what most of this means, but either way I'd say just for the sake of being scientifically honest we need to change wording to be "We have a hypothesis that..." rather than "is" or "has to". We don't know this for sure, so we shouldnt phrase it as if we do, I think in general professionals will be more likely to lend their ear and take it seriously if we're not making big claims that we haven't proven yet
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what vecktor wrote was that isomers do not have the same NMR spectrum, even if they have the same mass. We know for sure there are isomers of MDMA that have the same mass, that they exist, but vecktor didn't seem to see any such isomers like that in the first NMR results.



Indeed you are right, structural isomers will not have the same NMR spectrum. The sample from the NMR data appears to be MDMA and but there is certainly some weirdness so it could be contaminated, but this contamination, could possibly be from the NMR solvent DMSO.  hopefully Vash can get  to get his NMR guy to confirm the solvent was pure. so we know the results are real, because if someone accidentally contaminated the NMR DMSO with DMF, formamide or similar amide solvent then it would show up. unless contamination in the solvent is ruled out no absolute conclusions can really be made as to where these peaks came from.

what we can do is use the NMR data to rule out some things:
this sample is not an isomer of MDMA and it is not contaminated with significant amounts of an isomer of MDMA.

Is it pure?
There is certainly some weirdness in the 1H spectra, there are several broad peaks typical of amines (and to a lesser extent alcohols) this may be amine vs protonated amine, but equally it could be the alcohol MDP2Pol is hiding in there there are too many broad peaks IMHO. Running NMR in D2O or CD3OD will make the amine peaks disappear and simplify things.

NMR alone is not perfect, it needs to be cross referenced with other analytical techniques. Like a jigsaw puzzle, without all the pieces the picture is incomplete but the outline of the picture can be seen without all the pieces.

There are things NMR will struggle to see, for example the dimer however will have a spectrum that is practically identical on 1H and 13C NMR, after all it is practically the same structurally,  just MDMAs joined together, so 1H and 13C NMR would be fooled, the one hydrogen difference at the amine would probably not be seen because the hydrogen on MDMA is an exchangeable hydrogen, it swaps with deuterium in the solvent unless both the sample and solvent is very dry and the solvent is aprotic.

Mass spec though and in particular GC-MS will have no difficulty seeing the dimer provided it is being looked for. The difference in mass and the large difference in boiling point allows the GC to separate them with ease, but the analysis run time has to be hot enough and long enough for the heavy dimer to work its way through the GC and the mass spec needs to be scanning up to higher masses.

I understand that there may be other meh samples that have been analyzed using NMR, this data would be useful. Ideally though a sample of meh and a sample of magic subjected to NMR in the same solvent would show any differences.

for what its worth I would not put much value on a MALDI mass spectrum giving an accurate mass spectrum for something as small as MDMA, it is way to small for MALDI and the technique also generates a lot of matrix effects at low masses. That it gave any information at all is great but it wouldn't necessarily see anything else.

so as it stands the hypothesis that meh mdma is due to a structural isomer in this sample is dead. The hypothesis that it is contaminated with something perhaps dimer or MDP2Pol is not dead yet. Overall the picture looks a lot like it is weird mostly MDMA. I don't think carbonyl or similar impurities can be suggested at this point because they may be from the NMR solvent.
The 2D NMR spectra show something unusual, quite what is unclear at this point.
More data needed. I will try and monitor this thread.


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> Received my results from International Energy Control today for the product I plan to consume on NYE. I am hoping that they have not fully updated my results yet, because I paid for a full PDF report that was supposed to show which tests were run and provide full graphs for each test. All I see right now is "MDMA 80%." That is it. It does not say MDMA HCI or provide any additional information. I paid a whopping $120 Euros for this test, which was supposed to include "a complete PDF report including the raw graphs and data from the techniques used." So far, disappointed.
> 
> What do you make of the result? No adulterants noted. I was definitely hoping for more than 80% though, especially since this product is supposedly washed and re-crystallized.


Ask them for the TIC, Total Ion Count chart for the GCMS run or better the data file (*.d from Agilent machines *.raw from Thermo machines for example)  which will have the TIC and all the spectral data for the entire run. I am pretty sure energy control are running Agilent systems. This raw data can be read and interpreted by many free software tools and compounds that they are not looking for, that are not in their library can be dug out of the data.
for small compounds like this GC-MS is the best analytical method by far.

80% might be calculated on the basis of freebase MDMA so 80% would be about 90% pure as the hydrochloride, I have no idea what method energy control use, I have heard they use UV absorption without chromatography which is only slightly better than a wild guess.


----------



## Negi

vecktor said:


> 80% might be calculated on the basis of freebase MDMA so 80% would be about 90% pure as the hydrochloride, I have no idea what method energy control use



Energy Control results are based on the amount of MDMA salt.


> 1) Our results directly provide the result of the salt of the substance, as
> we’re using a salt as a reference standard. This means that the purity of a
> sample with only MDMA HCl could be 100%.
> 2) Therefore, a tablet with 100mg of MDMA. HCl would be reported as 100mg
> of MDMA.







__





						Technical Oddity: Dutch Testing Service (DIMS) Defines Pure MDMA Crystal as 84% Pure – Erowid Crew Blog
					





					www.erowid.org


----------



## indigoaura

Thanks @Negi! So, if IEC is measuring based on the salt, and maximum purity is 100%, then what is the other 20% in my sample if no adulterants were found?


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> Thanks @Negi! So, if IEC is measuring based on the salt, and maximum purity is 100%, then what is the other 20% in my sample if no adulterants were found?


thanks for the info Negi.

The answer, but not the one you want to hear, is the other 20% is unknown. It could be something invisible to their analysis like water or it just as likely they cannot be bothered or are simply not capable of identifying the other components.


----------



## indigoaura

IEC has not replied to my questions from yesterday about where my PDF report is and what else they can tell me about the sample. Really hoping they don't blow me off, because if I was just going to get a simple "80% MDMA" result, I would not have paid extra for a PDF report.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Conspiracy theory alert!

I reckon IEC are just a bunch of Spanish drugsters getting wasted on all the samples sent to them and then returning generic 'results' for each substance. The fees they charge are no doubt being used to fund the production of MehDMA...


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Just thought I'd update on my TLC experiments.  Had some help via PMs, and this is what I've got so far.  Not too successful but there you go...

Using system 1 (ethyl acetate/methanol/water/ammonia ) and system 2 (acetone/ammonia ) from this paper, with a freebase sample:



Also, tried Marquis after system 1, with freebase and salt dissolved in water:



I tried a pill sample (left) and crystal sample (right) dissolved in IPA/ammonia instead of water, in system 1.  With the crystal sample I also tried less of a sample (by partially draining the capillary before application):



I tested a null sample, and the front at the top also appeared so can be ignored.  In general I seem to be struggling to shift the mdma type stuff up the plate.  And I can't seem to resolve that higher streak into dots.


----------



## indigoaura

...And, still not reply from IEC. I have sent two emails now, asking them where my PDF report is at among other questions. Ridiculous.


----------



## G_Chem

Straight BS Indigo.. Sorry your dealing with that but I guess it only further proves the inadequacy of many of these supposed “professional” labs.

Especially when they promised such for an increased price...

-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> ...And, still not reply from IEC. I have sent two emails now, asking them where my PDF report is at among other questions. Ridiculous.


Just keep on. Be consistently polite, but insistent. At the very least they owe you an explanation of some sort. Keep at them, give it a little time in case they are just delayed or or not quite in the position to come back to you at the 2nd so you don't annoy them unnecessarily.


----------



## G_Chem

Good level headed advice AutoTripper, shit happens.. Best to stay as understanding as possible, and if they don’t get back in 6mos we burn the MF’s down to the ground!!! 

Goddamn I had one hell of an experience two weeks ago, it was a combo experience with other empathogens and psychedelics (a combo which I’ve worked on and tweaked for years culminating in this experience) but soon as it hit I came to realize a truth about myself that I’ve been running from for years.  I could see clearer than I have in a long time...

The following days I pursued what I knew needed to be done, and while a hard pill to swalllow I’ve found out that the medical issues I’ve been hiding from were exactly my worst fears all along. 

I was diagnosed with cancer of which kind I’d rather not say.  While there is of course uncertainty about the future, I’m blessed to have these medicines that can allow me moments of clarity to make the choices I need to for my own betterment. I’m amazing at denial and lying to myself, I probably would have continued my lie until this cancer ate me alive.  My experiences have been trying to tell me this for awhile but it took a peak level trip to really bust the doors down on this issue.

I might be here a lot more or a lot less depending but I wish you guys the best in your quest truly.  After my latest experience, and just facilitating more lately for many others, this is a matter of necessity to get this medicine back to the people.  Everyone should have access to the highest quality MDMA to bring about personal growth that we all need.

Just Incase anyone’s curious, here’s the combo which seems to very reliably produce peak experiences from what I’ve seen in myself and others... The dosages have been experimented and adjusted to what I feel are the perfect amounts.  The substances are taken in this particular order for a number of reasons as well.  (Of course as always, purity is of utmost importance all substances were highly pure.)

T 0:00

- 15mg 5-MAPB
- 1mg d-meth
- ~150mg Mescaline acetate
- 1/2 hit of strong WoW LSD

T 1:00

- 95mg MDMA
- 30mg MDA
- 1 hit of strong WoW LSD

T 2:00

- 40mg MDMA

T ??

- 200mg Phenibut
- small bump of Ketamine before bed
- few hits of DMT before bed

I started writing up a post on my explanation for each substance, their dosages, timings, etc... But I got distracted.  If anyone’s curious I can come back to explain but I can guarantee this..  If you go through the effort to procure all these substances you will be forever thanking me once you finally give this a try.

I’ve done this combo everything except the MDA a few times before but the MDA as I expected brought it all together for a deep needed session.

Love you all, hopefully I’ll be back relatively soon   And if not...Know I truly LIVED life.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

All the best G_Chem, sorry to hear that. 

But that's one hell of a fuckin combo man..!


----------



## babooon87

G_Chem said:


> Good level headed advice AutoTripper, shit happens.. Best to stay as understanding as possible, and if they don’t get back in 6mos we burn the MF’s down to the ground!!!
> 
> Goddamn I had one hell of an experience two weeks ago, it was a combo experience with other empathogens and psychedelics (a combo which I’ve worked on and tweaked for years culminating in this experience) but soon as it hit I came to realize a truth about myself that I’ve been running from for years.  I could see clearer than I have in a long time...
> 
> The following days I pursued what I knew needed to be done, and while a hard pill to swalllow I’ve found out that the medical issues I’ve been hiding from were exactly my worst fears all along.
> 
> I was diagnosed with cancer of which kind I’d rather not say.  While there is of course uncertainty about the future, I’m blessed to have these medicines that can allow me moments of clarity to make the choices I need to for my own betterment. I’m amazing at denial and lying to myself, I probably would have continued my lie until this cancer ate me alive.  My experiences have been trying to tell me this for awhile but it took a peak level trip to really bust the doors down on this issue.
> 
> I might be here a lot more or a lot less depending but I wish you guys the best in your quest truly.  After my latest experience, and just facilitating more lately for many others, this is a matter of necessity to get this medicine back to the people.  Everyone should have access to the highest quality MDMA to bring about personal growth that we all need.
> 
> Just Incase anyone’s curious, here’s the combo which seems to very reliably produce peak experiences from what I’ve seen in myself and others... The dosages have been experimented and adjusted to what I feel are the perfect amounts.  The substances are taken in this particular order for a number of reasons as well.  (Of course as always, purity is of utmost importance all substances were highly pure.)
> 
> T 0:00
> 
> - 15mg 5-MAPB
> - 1mg d-meth
> - ~150mg Mescaline acetate
> - 1/2 hit of strong WoW LSD
> 
> T 1:00
> 
> - 95mg MDMA
> - 30mg MDA
> - 1 hit of strong WoW LSD
> 
> T 2:00
> 
> - 40mg MDMA
> 
> T ??
> 
> - 200mg Phenibut
> - small bump of Ketamine before bed
> - few hits of DMT before bed
> 
> I started writing up a post on my explanation for each substance, their dosages, timings, etc... But I got distracted.  If anyone’s curious I can come back to explain but I can guarantee this..  If you go through the effort to procure all these substances you will be forever thanking me once you finally give this a try.
> 
> I’ve done this combo everything except the MDA a few times before but the MDA as I expected brought it all together for a deep needed session.
> 
> Love you all, hopefully I’ll be back relatively soon   And if not...Know I truly LIVED life.
> 
> -GC



Sounds like an amazing combo ! Sorry for the bad news concerning your health. Wishing you the best in overcoming that challenge.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

Sorry to hear the bad news G_Chem. You may want to look in to medicinal mushrooms like turkey tail, chaga, reishi and others. Paul Stamets has some interesting info on the subject.


----------



## G_Chem

Thanks guys much appreciated I’ve got a feeling I’ll be alright (my gut never lies) but then again I’m not sure what “alright” entails..

Appreciate the advice PsychedelicSummer, I’ve been very curious about these and actually recently bought powdered Chaga.  You mentioning it I’ll without a doubt be adding it to a smoothie later 

I hunt mush too and have seen lots of turkey tail out there...  But obviously not the best time for that.  I’ve had to completely clean up my already somewhat anally clean diet, pretty much only eat veggies, certain fruits, healthy fats, nuts and chicken when I need meat.  If I do much as eat a bag of beef jerky (high quality no preservatives or anything) the inflammation gets so bad I’m laid out in agony.

Hoping in not too long I’ll be back to causing a ruckus haha, but the way my life has been I’m accepting of whatever comes.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem Don't make me cry man!

So sorry to read that you are having a showdown with cancer.

It runs in my family, and many close to me have had it (various forms). Your attitude reminds me of my brother. When he got cancer as a young man, he said, "Everyone asks why me, but I figure, why not me?"

We all love you and will be sending all the PLUR and good vibes your way.


----------



## AutoTripper

@G_Chem of course real sorry you are facing this. I seriously hope as well of course that there is a good chance of recovery.

Positive mindset first and foremost. We still so massively underestimate this it really is that make or break and be all or end all in so many situations.
I just wanted to chuck a couple of things in I have heard recently that kambo is meant to be really good good for cancer.

I want to try the kambo myself because I really believe it could help with my general immune status and condition and Trigger some sort of beneficial shift. 

Also, turemric is proven to be especially beneficial preventing and keeping cancer at bay because it works on the Gene level to prevent mutation.

I have been taking turmeric medicinally for years along with other spices primarily as respiratory symptom management but also because I'm addicted to it sprinkled over my food mixed with olive oil and coconut oil and homemade curry sauces all of the time.

A good Daily Dose is 1 1/2 heaped teaspoons and I would recommend this strongly to any cancer patient. But when you are using spices or herbs for medicinal purposes it really is essential to seek organic versions because in all of my experiences non organic medicinal supplements and foods have lacked vastly in aroma, flavour and efficacy.

Also here is a link to an interesting site by a clever guy, exiled from the US for making electro medicine devices which genuinely help to heal the sick and providing all sorts of alternative health information regarding electro medicine and various other approaches to healing.  He was imprisoned several times for helping others until he eventually moved country to continue his work but he gives loads of alternative angles and informations on all sorts of illnesses and conditions including cancer.






						Fighting cancer naturally
					

Fighting cancer naturally and reasons why you should avoid radiation + chemotherapy




					www.dragonfly75.com
				




The whole electro medicine stuff it's really interesting as well I have been using one of his devices for several years to control and eliminate my infections and it has brought me such a difference in quality of life and ability to stay on top of things.

Anyway stay strong man and that trip combination sounds awesome you're braver than me that's for sure.  Up to 700ug 1cP-lsd with herb, maybe kanna, kava, caffeine and Etizolam ( which interestingly has not been killing or spoiling the enjoyment of my trips recently since I Began my first ever experiments with etizolam ) is the most I am able to venture out of the cave currently.  All very tame really.

Just know that we will all be thinking of you and hoping for the best. I hope to be able to make the odds suggestion which may be helpful and apologies in advance if ever this feels patronising.


----------



## popsweat

really interesting thread on reddit r/IAmA from MAPS yesterday. Someone asked a question on isomers.



> Is the MDMA used in the Phase 3 trials racemic MDMA, or are the isomers separated?
> Are there any plans to determine if one isomer has more therapeutic benefit than the other?
> Thank you so much for all you do!



_All MAPS clinical trials use MDMA. MAPS does not have plans to determine if one isomer has more therapeutic benefit than the other. Emory University has done research on one isomer in rodents and monkeys.
—Alli Feduccia, Ph.D., Senior Clinical Data Scientist_



> Was this decision made because the enantiomers showed no difference in potency or due to financial constraints of the med chem/development to explore enantiomers?



_All clinical trials and nonclinical studies sponsored by MAPS have used racemic MDMA since 1985. MAPS is developing the anhydrous form of the hydrochloride salt for future marketing after FDA approval. In order to use all our data that donors have paid for since 1985, we need to stick with the racemic form.
—Berra Yazar-Klosinski, Ph.D., Director of Research Development and Regulatory Affairs
-
Racemic MDMA has been most extensively researched and has different properties than the individual isomers. The individual isoforms affect dopamine and serotonin release differently.
—Alli Feduccia, Ph.D., Senior Clinical Data Scientist
-
An initial report [Shulgin or Anderson, 1978] suggests that racemate effects requires both enantiomers.
—Ilsa Jerome, Ph.D., Medical Coder and Data Analyst_


----------



## opposable-thumbs

A few pages back helional was mentioned.
Not that any of this has been narrowed down, but would synthesis from helional be more or less likely to be meh?

Asking because I saw a source claiming their MDMA was made from helional rather than safrole.


----------



## trogere

AutoTripper said:


> @G_Chem of course real sorry you are facing this. I seriously hope as well of course that there is a good chance of recovery.
> 
> Positive mindset first and foremost. We still so massively underestimate this it really is that make or break and be all or end all in so many situations.
> I just wanted to chuck a couple of things in I have heard recently that kambo is meant to be really good good for cancer.
> 
> I want to try the kambo myself because I really believe it could help with my general immune status and condition and Trigger some sort of beneficial shift.
> 
> Also, turemric is proven to be especially beneficial preventing and keeping cancer at bay because it works on the Gene level to prevent mutation.
> 
> I have been taking turmeric medicinally for years along with other spices primarily as respiratory symptom management but also because I'm addicted to it sprinkled over my food mixed with olive oil and coconut oil and homemade curry sauces all of the time.
> 
> A good Daily Dose is 1 1/2 heaped teaspoons and I would recommend this strongly to any cancer patient. But when you are using spices or herbs for medicinal purposes it really is essential to seek organic versions because in all of my experiences non organic medicinal supplements and foods have lacked vastly in aroma, flavour and efficacy.
> 
> Also here is a link to an interesting site by a clever guy, exiled from the US for making electro medicine devices which genuinely help to heal the sick and providing all sorts of alternative health information regarding electro medicine and various other approaches to healing.  He was imprisoned several times for helping others until he eventually moved country to continue his work but he gives loads of alternative angles and informations on all sorts of illnesses and conditions including cancer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fighting cancer naturally
> 
> 
> Fighting cancer naturally and reasons why you should avoid radiation + chemotherapy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dragonfly75.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The whole electro medicine stuff it's really interesting as well I have been using one of his devices for several years to control and eliminate my infections and it has brought me such a difference in quality of life and ability to stay on top of things.
> 
> Anyway stay strong man and that trip combination sounds awesome you're braver than me that's for sure.  Up to 700ug 1cP-lsd with herb, maybe kanna, kava, caffeine and Etizolam ( which interestingly has not been killing or spoiling the enjoyment of my trips recently since I Began my first ever experiments with etizolam ) is the most I am able to venture out of the cave currently.  All very tame really.
> 
> Just know that we will all be thinking of you and hoping for the best. I hope to be able to make the odds suggestion which may be helpful and apologies in advance if ever this feels patronising.




My kambo practicionner told me of one of her customers who healed a deadly cancer with kambo, aya, vegetarian diet and a lot of self-work. She had 6 months to live, the doctor doesn't understand how she is still alive, and healed of her cancer. 
There's also a woman on YouTube, Rama Achala, who healed MS with kambo and aya.

I participated in 7 kambo cérémonies so far. I suffer of something that would be probably called constant fatigue syndrome. For a few weeks after some cérémonies, I felt what it was like to be healthy again. A lot of emotionnal and energetic bagage went away. But, it's not a magic cure. I'll start the removal of my dental amalgalm this week. After that, I'll follow Andy Cutler's chelation protocol. With my mouth clean and some work done with the chelation, I'll go to kambo again. 
It took me a bit to understand, but during one of the cérémonies, I got the call to iboga. I want to meet it at the end of my detox, to get the most healing without mercury to interfert with it. Emotional Healing, because it creates a lot of anger to understand you've been volontary poisoned by the dental industry. Also, iboga is Healing to neurotransmettors damaged by mercury. For aya, I'm not sure, I'm microdosing b caapi, many times it feels wonderful, and it's very Healing, but there's abit of an adrenaline push that is not nice after afew hours sometimes. Two things: my adrenal glands are weakened by mercury, or a regular dose would push me to purge, and I can't get stuff out with the microdose.


----------



## AutoTripper

trogere said:


> My kambo practicionner told me of one of her customers who healed a deadly cancer with kambo, aya, vegetarian diet and a lot of self-work. She had 6 months to live, the doctor doesn't understand how she is still alive, and healed of her cancer.
> There's also a woman on YouTube, Rama Achala, who healed MS with kambo and aya.
> 
> I participated in 7 kambo cérémonies so far. I suffer of something that would be probably called constant fatigue syndrome. For a few weeks after some cérémonies, I felt what it was like to be healthy again. A lot of emotionnal and energetic bagage went away. But, it's not a magic cure. I'll start the removal of my dental amalgalm this week. After that, I'll follow Andy Cutler's chelation protocol. With my mouth clean and some work done with the chelation, I'll go to kambo again.
> It took me a bit to understand, but during one of the cérémonies, I got the call to iboga. I want to meet it at the end of my detox, to get the most healing without mercury to interfert with it. Emotional Healing, because it creates a lot of anger to understand you've been volontary poisoned by the dental industry. Also, iboga is Healing to neurotransmettors damaged by mercury. For aya, I'm not sure, I'm microdosing b caapi, many times it feels wonderful, and it's very Healing, but there's abit of an adrenaline push that is not nice after afew hours sometimes. Two things: my adrenal glands are weakened by mercury, or a regular dose would push me to purge, and I can't get stuff out with the microdose.


Hello there and thanks very much for sharing that insight and you experience. I am very interested in trying the kambo treatment myself because it is actually very accessible and relatively affordable in the United Kingdom and probably most countries and obviously it can be self-administered but I would be a bit apprehensive and unsure about starting out and would seek a practitioner at least to begin with.

I also have pretty extreme chronic fatigue which is related to long-term Lyme disease but generally it's my messed up immune system and nervous system which I feel the kambo could benefit.

I only have one Mercury amalgam filling I believe which is bad enough and it came fairly recently within the last year I did have them in the past and I'm sure they weren't removed properly and there is Mercury in fish and who knows what else (MDMA pills?) Lol.

I wish you the best of luck on your healing journey and commend you for your commitment and focus.

I have been taking Kava this week. It's a very interesting herb because it doesn't appear to have any negatives or downsides except that it only works on an empty stomach so would need to be incorporated into a personal dietary routine.

I believe kava may also be useful and effective at tackling cancer certainly at relieving symptoms and discomfort at the very least but it does not come with the same Downside as similarly used herbs and drugs like kratom and opiates which are very physically addictive with severe withdrawals.


----------



## trogere

AutoTripper said:


> Hello there and thanks very much for sharing that insight and you experience. I am very interested in trying the kambo treatment myself because it is actually very accessible and relatively affordable in the United Kingdom and probably most countries and obviously it can be self-administered but I would be a bit apprehensive and unsure about starting out and would seek a practitioner at least to begin with.
> 
> I also have pretty extreme chronic fatigue which is related to long-term Lyme disease but generally it's my messed up immune system and nervous system which I feel the kambo could benefit.
> 
> I only have one Mercury amalgam filling I believe which is bad enough and it came fairly recently within the last year I did have them in the past and I'm sure they weren't removed properly and there is Mercury in fish and who knows what else (MDMA pills?) Lol.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck on your healing journey and commend you for your commitment and focus.
> 
> I have been taking Kava this week. It's a very interesting herb because it doesn't appear to have any negatives or downsides except that it only works on an empty stomach so would need to be incorporated into a personal dietary routine.
> 
> I believe kava may also be useful and effective at tackling cancer certainly at relieving symptoms and discomfort at the very least but it does not come with the same Downside as similarly used herbs and drugs like kratom and opiates which are very physically addictive with severe withdrawals.



Lyme is very often linked to mercury toxicity. Amalgalms is enough to become toxic. The IAOMT is an association of dentists specialized in dentistry without mercury and safe removal of amalgalms. They have a website:
https://iaomt.org/ 
There are various protocols to heal from mercury toxicity, Andy Cutler's protocol seems  the safer (at least to me). His book "The mercury detoxification manual" is a great read.

Be careful, I worsened my case with an anti-candida diet right after kambo sessions 4 and 5. Now, I know that candida takes in mercury, so by killing it, my body had a lot more mercury to deal with.

Im my experience, kambo gave me a temporary relief, but it's not possible to heal mercury toxicity with amalgalm in one's mouth.

I tried kava a few times several years ago. The first few times, I didn't feel anything, and after, it was calming but I had some strange sensation in my lips. I didn't order more because I heard about liver toxicity.

Here's a link to the association of kambo practicionners: https://iakp.org/


----------



## AutoTripper

trogere said:


> Lyme is very often linked to mercury toxicity. Amalgalms is enough to become toxic. The IAOMT is an association of dentists specialized in dentistry without mercury and safe removal of amalgalms. They have a website:
> https://iaomt.org/
> There are various protocols to heal from mercury toxicity, Andy Cutler's protocol seems  the safer (at least to me). His book "The mercury detoxification manual" is a great read.
> 
> Be careful, I worsened my case with an anti-candida diet right after kambo sessions 4 and 5. Now, I know that candida takes in mercury, so by killing it, my body had a lot more mercury to deal with.
> 
> Im my experience, kambo gave me a temporary relief, but it's not possible to heal mercury toxicity with amalgalm in one's mouth.
> 
> I tried kava a few times several years ago. The first few times, I didn't feel anything, and after, it was calming but I had some strange sensation in my lips. I didn't order more because I heard about liver toxicity.
> 
> Here's a link to the association of kambo practicionners: https://iakp.org/


Thanks again for the insights and information just a few points when I say I have had lyme disease I don't actually have the borrelia bacterial infection I clear that completely from my body about two years ago after only being diagnosed with the infection and actual lyme disease itself in 2015 but I contracted the infection in 2004 and developed lyme disease in 2005.

I still have lyme disease even though I don't have the borrelia bacterial infection because lyme disease is not an infection it is the resulting condition which the infection causes by invading the central nervous system and brain.

Essentially you can define lyme disease as "nervous and immune system dysregulation".

It is an incredibly difficult thing to correct and rebalance and has proved impossible for so many people who have all the money in the world and access to any treatment it can still be an impossible feat for some to fully recover back to a normal life and all-round condition.

Many people struggle for years or even decades trying to completely eliminate the borrelia bacterial infection I was able to achieve this fairly quickly with prescribed vibrational homoeopathy and some additional approaches.

However restoring balance and equilibrium to my immune and nervous systems is the real difficulty in my own case I am extremely intolerance and over reactive to virtually all supplements and herbs and remedies.

I have never met somebody with the same degree and range of reactions and intolerances as myself and this has made treating my conditions and restoring balance and Order an impossible task.

For example regarding Mercury relation I would not be able to attempt any protocol or program because there isn't a single supplement I would be able to tolerate for even one day which would form the main parts of these programs and protocols.

I can't even take basic vitamin supplements like calcium and magnesium etc.
It's been a real Catch-22. Basic stuff like chlorophyll and cholera etc I couldn't tolerate any of those supplements on their own let alone in combination with an overall program.

Regarding the kava you experienced some people do not experience the effects until they have been taking the kava regularly for a little while where a reverse tolerance effect occurs and it sounds as though this may have been the case with yourself.

Feeling a numbness in your lips is a usual reaction I actually like that myself and is an indication that the kavalactones are active in your products and and body.

In relation to liver toxicity concerns this has been pretty strongly refuted and I'm sure was just propaganda fear mongering put out by big Pharma at the time but still is having an influence on people who do not know anything about kava.

So if that was you only reason for not considering the use of kava in future I definitely do not think that is a valid concern.

Thanks for the link of kambo practitioners I have already found tons of them in the United Kingdom. 

Also with your experience with kambo and the temporary relief you experience with all of these things everything constructive we do to help ourselves is contributing to our journey through life and the condition of our body and mind at all points so it's not like you only had temporary benefits and then it was lost, it will have assisted you to be at the level of health you are currently.

I have no doubt you would have received some lasting benefits, it's just never possible for us to perceive and identify these individual things and influences over time.


Oh yes I forgot I also had major candida myself it was the first thing I learnt about when my illness came in 2005 before I'd even heard about Lyme disease but I eliminated or rather got my candida fully under control pretty easily actually with a strict and disciplined anti-candida diet and general natural anti-fungal remedies.

It was probably the right time and condition for me to tackle the candida then but in my own experience it was absolute childsplay and dead easy to get on top of and keep that way it just took a combination of dietary discipline and sensible supplementation but the diet really is the main thing with Candida.

I have never had any problems with candida since then I never even think about it but then my diet does not have any sugar or particularly candida feeding foods with lots of antifungal spices and raw garlic and oil of oregano on a daily basis for allergy symptom management, and general antimicrobial support.


----------



## trogere

Regarding chlorella, it's a dangerous chelating agent. I've heard horrible redistribution stories with chlorella or cilantro. Also, chelating with amalgalm in the mouth is dangerous. I'll start chelation with DMSA, and move to DMSA/ALA combo or ALA after a few months. I don't want to start with Alpha-lipoic-acid while there's too much mercury in my body, it will put it in my brain, and I really don't want that!

For candida, yes, less sugar and natural anti-fungals are effective for many people.

Yes, kambo gave me a nice relief. I had a nice month after sessions 2-3, and 2-3 weeks on top of the world after sessions 4-5. And, then I crashed bad. I had a decent week after session 6-7, but I was so bad from the crash before the sessions 6-7.

There are deeper benefits with kambo other that physical. I did let go of some huge emotional and energetic blockages. Also, I noticed that weird and nice stuff happens after kambo. Syncronicities, new starts, noticing frogs in your daily life.  I love kambo! Even if it's not easy during the sessions. Considering your condition, your practicionner will probably start with only a few dots.


----------



## babooon87

AutoTripper said:


> Thanks again for the insights and information just a few points when I say I have had lyme disease I don't actually have the borrelia bacterial infection I clear that completely from my body about two years ago after only being diagnosed with the infection and actual lyme disease itself in 2015 but I contracted the infection in 2004 and developed lyme disease in 2005.
> 
> I still have lyme disease even though I don't have the borrelia bacterial infection because lyme disease is not an infection it is the resulting condition which the infection causes by invading the central nervous system and brain.
> 
> Essentially you can define lyme disease as "nervous and immune system dysregulation".
> 
> It is an incredibly difficult thing to correct and rebalance and has proved impossible for so many people who have all the money in the world and access to any treatment it can still be an impossible feat for some to fully recover back to a normal life and all-round condition.
> 
> Many people struggle for years or even decades trying to completely eliminate the borrelia bacterial infection I was able to achieve this fairly quickly with prescribed vibrational homoeopathy and some additional approaches.
> 
> However restoring balance and equilibrium to my immune and nervous systems is the real difficulty in my own case I am extremely intolerance and over reactive to virtually all supplements and herbs and remedies.
> 
> I have never met somebody with the same degree and range of reactions and intolerances as myself and this has made treating my conditions and restoring balance and Order an impossible task.
> 
> For example regarding Mercury relation I would not be able to attempt any protocol or program because there isn't a single supplement I would be able to tolerate for even one day which would form the main parts of these programs and protocols.
> 
> I can't even take basic vitamin supplements like calcium and magnesium etc.
> It's been a real Catch-22. Basic stuff like chlorophyll and cholera etc I couldn't tolerate any of those supplements on their own let alone in combination with an overall program.
> 
> Regarding the kava you experienced some people do not experience the effects until they have been taking the kava regularly for a little while where a reverse tolerance effect occurs and it sounds as though this may have been the case with yourself.
> 
> Feeling a numbness in your lips is a usual reaction I actually like that myself and is an indication that the kavalactones are active in your products and and body.
> 
> In relation to liver toxicity concerns this has been pretty strongly refuted and I'm sure was just propaganda fear mongering put out by big Pharma at the time but still is having an influence on people who do not know anything about kava.
> 
> So if that was you only reason for not considering the use of kava in future I definitely do not think that is a valid concern.
> 
> Thanks for the link of kambo practitioners I have already found tons of them in the United Kingdom.
> 
> Also with your experience with kambo and the temporary relief you experience with all of these things everything constructive we do to help ourselves is contributing to our journey through life and the condition of our body and mind at all points so it's not like you only had temporary benefits and then it was lost, it will have assisted you to be at the level of health you are currently.
> 
> I have no doubt you would have received some lasting benefits, it's just never possible for us to perceive and identify these individual things and influences over time.
> 
> 
> Oh yes I forgot I also had major candida myself it was the first thing I learnt about when my illness came in 2005 before I'd even heard about Lyme disease but I eliminated or rather got my candida fully under control pretty easily actually with a strict and disciplined anti-candida diet and general natural anti-fungal remedies.
> 
> It was probably the right time and condition for me to tackle the candida then but in my own experience it was absolute childsplay and dead easy to get on top of and keep that way it just took a combination of dietary discipline and sensible supplementation but the diet really is the main thing with Candida.
> 
> I have never had any problems with candida since then I never even think about it but then my diet does not have any sugar or particularly candida feeding foods with lots of antifungal spices and raw garlic and oil of oregano on a daily basis for allergy symptom management, and general antimicrobial support.



Have you given the carnivore diet a shot ? It seems to be a miracle cure for people with autoimmune conditions which were responding to no other treatment. It seems like some anti-nutrients amd toxins found in plants trigger these conditions in some people and removing them from their diet resolves their symptoms completely.


----------



## AutoTripper

babooon87 said:


> Have you given the carnivore diet a shot ? It seems to be a miracle cure for people with autoimmune conditions which were responding to no other treatment. It seems like some anti-nutrients amd toxins found in plants trigger these conditions in some people and removing them from their diet resolves their symptoms completely.


It's really very tricky for me to actually commit to and consider any specific particular dietary program or approach because whichever Direction I go in there are so many restrictions and dead ends and limitations that it just can't work for me like it can for others in the full sense.

So that if I was to try and follow any particular dietary regimen there would be so many foods and supplements or ingredients I would have to strictly avoid which others would use to make the world of difference so that the diet can work and suffice overall.

I mean I have researched and studied loads of different angles regarding food and diet and I'm familiar with what you are suggesting here and thank you for the consideration by the way.

My diet is pretty good and well balanced composition wise without anything excessive which would be considered detrimental, but I have always struggled greatly to try and avoid or limit carbohydrates too much.


----------



## babooon87

AutoTripper said:


> It's really very tricky for me to actually commit to and consider any specific particular dietary program or approach because whichever Direction I go in there are so many restrictions and dead ends and limitations that it just can't work for me like it can for others in the full sense.
> 
> So that if I was to try and follow any particular dietary regimen there would be so many foods and supplements or ingredients I would have to strictly avoid which others would use to make the world of difference so that the diet can work and suffice overall.
> 
> I mean I have researched and studied loads of different angles regarding food and diet and I'm familiar with what you are suggesting here and thank you for the consideration by the way.
> 
> My diet is pretty good and well balanced composition wise without anything excessive which would be considered detrimental, but I have always struggled greatly to try and avoid or limit carbohydrates too much.


That is precicely why the carnivore diet works so well. It is the ultimate elimination diet because in animal products all the nutrients are already in the form the most easily absorbable and recognised by the body so the probability of it triggering adverse responses or being recognised as foreign are minimal to none. This kind of diet also reduces inflammation dramatically which is also helpful because most health issues have an inflammatory component.

The problem with plant foods is that not only does the body has to work hard to convert and absorb their nutrients but they also contain "anti-nutrients" that they developped to protect themselves from predators eating them. Most healthy people can get away with eating them because their body can do the work of conversion, absorbtion and detoxification of these foods but for people afflicted with disease who have an overreactive immune system they can trigger severe reactions. And carbohydrates themselves are also problematic because they promote chronic systemic inflammation.


----------



## AutoTripper

babooon87 said:


> That is precicely why the carnivore diet works so well. It is the ultimate elimination diet because in animal products all the nutrients are already in the form the most easily absorbable and recognised by the body so the probability of it triggering adverse responses or being recognised as foreign are minimal to none. This kind of diet also reduces inflammation dramatically which is also helpful because most health issues have an inflammatory component.
> 
> The problem with plant foods is that not only does the body has to work hard to convert and absorb their nutrients but they also contain "anti-nutrients" that they developped to protect themselves from predators eating them. Most healthy people can get away with eating them because their body can do the work of conversion, absorbtion and detoxification of these foods but for people afflicted with disease who have an overreactive immune system they can trigger severe reactions. And carbohydrates themselves are also problematic because they promote chronic systemic inflammation.


Yes that thinking and logic is also very familiar to me. I mean, don't get me wrong over the years I have tried very high meat based and low carbohydrate vegetable diet but I cannot tolerate any lemon lime or vinegar and struggle with low stomach acid and the diet just never would work for me with so many other restrictions all round.

I know it has its excellent merits and you would certainly feel very clean and energized from it especially in a mental and consciousness sense much more clear-headed.

Espensive thiugh as well. I would only want to use organic meat grass-fed if possible to avoid those hormones and antibiotics which are directly causative of cancer.

But hey I'm not saying that you are wrong and that this isn't what I should and could be doing perhaps I will study into it a little more but I will need to improve my digestive system and all round situation and condition some what's in order to be able to explore new and alternative paths.


----------



## babooon87

AutoTripper said:


> Yes that thinking and logic is also very familiar to me. I mean, don't get me wrong over the years I have tried very high meat based and low carbohydrate vegetable diet but I cannot tolerate any lemon lime or vinegar and struggle with low stomach acid and the diet just never would work for me with so many other restrictions all round.
> 
> I know it has its excellent merits and you would certainly feel very clean and energized from it especially in a mental and consciousness sense much more clear-headed.
> 
> Espensive thiugh as well. I would only want to use organic meat grass-fed if possible to avoid those hormones and antibiotics which are directly causative of cancer.
> 
> But hey I'm not saying that you are wrong and that this isn't what I should and could be doing perhaps I will study into it a little more but I will need to improve my digestive system and all round situation and condition some what's in order to be able to explore new and alternative paths.



Yeah I understand your situation seems tricky. It was just something I wanted to put out there in case it could be helpful but you know your body more than anyone. You already seem to have figures out a good part of the puzzle by yourself so you are on the right path. Every bit of positive progress must be a real victory in a complicated matter like this. Don't give up and stay positive that's the most important part. I wish you the best ! take care.


----------



## AutoTripper

babooon87 said:


> Yeah I understand your situation seems tricky. It was just something I wanted to put out there in case it could be helpful but you know your body more than anyone. You already seem to have figures out a good part of the puzzle by yourself so you are on the right path. Every bit of positive progress must be a real victory in a complicated matter like this. Don't give up and stay positive that's the most important part. I wish you the best ! take care.


Thanks very much for those sincere words. And actually, I hqve improved substantially just lately. My immune system is stronger, I am in an all rpund better condition. 

Even my mum has been remarkable on how well I look and seem when a short while ago she was terrified I was on my deathbed practically.

Honestly 35 trips in a month seems to have done me the world of good just so many problems throughout and numerous injuries and hardly any sleep.

But all of a sudden despite being in a raggerty condition still I'm in a much stronger position than I have been for a long time looking forward now to potentially pick up considerably. I definitely feel the need for a break from tripping for a while for some integration which I have been postponing by not taking enough time off between each dose.

No acid for the last 2 days this being the third one in a row and I actually feel it more than I did when I was still dosing it regularly until a few days ago.

So I need to step back in order to appreciate the influence it has had. Integration they say.


----------



## Hilopsilo

vecktor said:


> Indeed you are right, structural isomers will not have the same NMR spectrum. The sample from the NMR data appears to be MDMA and but there is certainly some weirdness so it could be contaminated, but this contamination, could possibly be from the NMR solvent DMSO.  hopefully Vash can get  to get his NMR guy to confirm the solvent was pure. so we know the results are real, because if someone accidentally contaminated the NMR DMSO with DMF, formamide or similar amide solvent then it would show up. unless contamination in the solvent is ruled out no absolute conclusions can really be made as to where these peaks came from.
> 
> what we can do is use the NMR data to rule out some things:
> this sample is not an isomer of MDMA and it is not contaminated with significant amounts of an isomer of MDMA.
> 
> Is it pure?
> There is certainly some weirdness in the 1H spectra, there are several broad peaks typical of amines (and to a lesser extent alcohols) this may be amine vs protonated amine, but equally it could be the alcohol MDP2Pol is hiding in there there are too many broad peaks IMHO. Running NMR in D2O or CD3OD will make the amine peaks disappear and simplify things.
> 
> NMR alone is not perfect, it needs to be cross referenced with other analytical techniques. Like a jigsaw puzzle, without all the pieces the picture is incomplete but the outline of the picture can be seen without all the pieces.
> 
> There are things NMR will struggle to see, for example the dimer however will have a spectrum that is practically identical on 1H and 13C NMR, after all it is practically the same structurally,  just MDMAs joined together, so 1H and 13C NMR would be fooled, the one hydrogen difference at the amine would probably not be seen because the hydrogen on MDMA is an exchangeable hydrogen, it swaps with deuterium in the solvent unless both the sample and solvent is very dry and the solvent is aprotic.
> 
> Mass spec though and in particular GC-MS will have no difficulty seeing the dimer provided it is being looked for. The difference in mass and the large difference in boiling point allows the GC to separate them with ease, but the analysis run time has to be hot enough and long enough for the heavy dimer to work its way through the GC and the mass spec needs to be scanning up to higher masses.
> 
> I understand that there may be other meh samples that have been analyzed using NMR, this data would be useful. Ideally though a sample of meh and a sample of magic subjected to NMR in the same solvent would show any differences.
> 
> for what its worth I would not put much value on a MALDI mass spectrum giving an accurate mass spectrum for something as small as MDMA, it is way to small for MALDI and the technique also generates a lot of matrix effects at low masses. That it gave any information at all is great but it wouldn't necessarily see anything else.
> 
> so as it stands the hypothesis that meh mdma is due to a structural isomer in this sample is dead. The hypothesis that it is contaminated with something perhaps dimer or MDP2Pol is not dead yet. Overall the picture looks a lot like it is weird mostly MDMA. I don't think carbonyl or similar impurities can be suggested at this point because they may be from the NMR solvent.
> The 2D NMR spectra show something unusual, quite what is unclear at this point.
> More data needed. I will try and monitor this thread.



Thanks for this summary of your thoughts on the NMR, seems like simplest way forward is for more samples to be tested, or maybe, do multiple tests with the same sample if it would rule out variables like contamination in a single "run"?

This dimer theory makes a lot of sense, it almost fits too perfectly, I feel hesitant. Reminds me of breaking bad and how even walter white knew methylamine was important lmao



vecktor said:


> thanks for the info Negi.
> 
> *The answer, but not the one you want to hear, is the other 20% is unknown. It could be something invisible to their analysis like water or it just as likely they cannot be bothered or are simply not capable of identifying the other components.*



Yeah thats the same ting for my sample that was tested at the university NMR, the percent for each sample was missing lots of percentage points (but not because of the 84% HCL thing, since the MDMA % went higher than 84%). They've tested more samples for us since then, but same skimpy results given and never reply to request for more info. Free though



Best wishes to you @G_Chem!! you're one of the most level headed and thoughtful people I've ever met on the internet, always appreciate hearing from you


----------



## Hilopsilo

Pardon my crappy phone camera, friend of mine got a hold of some of the same batch I had this past August that was really good (which was basically the same as the magic stuff a year prior, in effects and appearance), as you can see it basically looks like quartz with some pieces looking like these flat crystals. The piece I took out is sort of shaped like a rupee from legend of zelda lol. Now, in a bag thats more just like ~100-200mg, there is a very subtle sweet scent, but still complete opposite of the straight stanky stuff. Holding a piece up and squinting its like looking through foggy glasses, its translucent for sure.


----------



## babooon87

Hilopsilo said:


> View attachment 18965
> 
> Pardon my crappy phone camera, friend of mine got a hold of some of the same batch I had this past August that was really good (which was basically the same as the magic stuff a year prior, in effects and appearance), as you can see it basically looks like quartz with some pieces looking like these flat crystals. The piece I took out is sort of shaped like a rupee from legend of zelda lol. Now, in a bag thats more just like ~100-200mg, there is a very subtle sweet scent, but still complete opposite of the straight stanky stuff. Holding a piece up and squinting its like looking through foggy glasses, its translucent for sure.


Lucky. I tested 3 batches lately and they were all Meh. Fell asleep on all of them.


----------



## G_Chem

Hilopsilo said:


> View attachment 18965
> 
> Pardon my crappy phone camera, friend of mine got a hold of some of the same batch I had this past August that was really good (which was basically the same as the magic stuff a year prior, in effects and appearance), as you can see it basically looks like quartz with some pieces looking like these flat crystals. The piece I took out is sort of shaped like a rupee from legend of zelda lol. Now, in a bag thats more just like ~100-200mg, there is a very subtle sweet scent, but still complete opposite of the straight stanky stuff. Holding a piece up and squinting its like looking through foggy glasses, its translucent for sure.



That piece of crystal is likely 99+% pure hydrated polymorph of MDMA.  Notice the “parallelogram/diamond” shape to the crystal structure, that’s indicative of the hydrated polymorph from my research.

Yup looks high quality indeed, I get product which mirrors that stuff well although mine seems to be more often anhydrous polymorph which from my poor eyesight it seems you have some of in the bag too.

So for those wondering there can be two or more different polymorphs in the same batch.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Damn, that looks beautiful. Never seen any like that before.

In other news...still nothing from the IEC lab. So, what should I assume as I decide how to dose for NYE? If what I have is 80% MDMA, then should I assume that 100 mg of product is actually 80 mg of product and plan accordingly?


----------



## OzzBozz

So I'm late to this thread but just wanted to contribute.  This is my first time posting on bluelight in years. I've been a member here for about 15 years and am wanting to contribute to the community again

Here in the Bay area, theres an abundance of molly that seems like the mass produced garbage from the NL. My question is, what region or place in the world is making the high quality real oldschool mdma that le junk and other folks describe?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

MDMA is made all over the world just not super labs like holland. I believe most my crystal rocks are australian made or asia origins and have been very magic to still magic effects but lesser quality magic nothing like the meh descriptions everybody posts here.

Im sure in cali there are still oldschool mdma cooks in the mountains cooking in labs.


----------



## Isnortice91

Thailand South East Asia makes high grade XTC & MDMA. They don't sell fake shit.


OzzBozz said:


> So I'm late to this thread but just wanted to contribute.  This is my first time posting on bluelight in years. I've been a member here for about 15 years and am wanting to contribute to the community again
> 
> Here in the Bay area, theres an abundance of molly that seems like the mass produced garbage from the NL. My question is, what region or place in the world is making the high quality real oldschool mdma that le junk and other folks describe?


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

trogere said:


> My kambo practicionner told me of one of her customers who healed a deadly cancer with kambo, aya, vegetarian diet and a lot of self-work. She had 6 months to live, the doctor doesn't understand how she is still alive, and healed of her cancer.
> There's also a woman on YouTube, Rama Achala, who healed MS with kambo and aya.
> 
> I participated in 7 kambo cérémonies so far. I suffer of something that would be probably called constant fatigue syndrome. For a few weeks after some cérémonies, I felt what it was like to be healthy again. A lot of emotionnal and energetic bagage went away. But, it's not a magic cure. I'll start the removal of my dental amalgalm this week. After that, I'll follow Andy Cutler's chelation protocol. With my mouth clean and some work done with the chelation, I'll go to kambo again.
> It took me a bit to understand, but during one of the cérémonies, I got the call to iboga. I want to meet it at the end of my detox, to get the most healing without mercury to interfert with it. Emotional Healing, because it creates a lot of anger to understand you've been volontary poisoned by the dental industry. Also, iboga is Healing to neurotransmettors damaged by mercury. For aya, I'm not sure, I'm microdosing b caapi, many times it feels wonderful, and it's very Healing, but there's abit of an adrenaline push that is not nice after afew hours sometimes. Two things: my adrenal glands are weakened by mercury, or a regular dose would push me to purge, and I can't get stuff out with the microdose.


What is kambo? I searched for the term and poison dart or tree frogs came up.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> Damn, that looks beautiful. Never seen any like that before.
> 
> In other news...still nothing from the IEC lab. So, what should I assume as I decide how to dose for NYE? If what I have is 80% MDMA, then should I assume that 100 mg of product is actually 80 mg of product and plan accordingly?



Honestly, if I were you I'd just hold off and keep searching for stuff that resembles the picture I posted, say no to anything else. This might be difficult if your sources usually just have the same stuff though (I usually have the opposite issue, by the time I try the stuff I buy, they've already run out of that batch and the next too lol)

I know its just appearance but its all we can really go off right now. 



OzzBozz said:


> So I'm late to this thread but just wanted to contribute.  This is my first time posting on bluelight in years. I've been a member here for about 15 years and am wanting to contribute to the community again
> 
> Here in the Bay area, theres an abundance of molly that seems like the mass produced garbage from the NL. My question is, what region or place in the world is making the high quality real oldschool mdma that le junk and other folks describe?



The stuff I just posted a picture for is Canadian and not large scale from the information I've been given. Can confirm its the magic stuff and more. The sheer difference between its effects and the brown/amber smelly stuff is dose for dose is like day & night.

Like I've mentioned before, window shoppin DNM's, finding MDMA that even appears at all similar (clear/translucent large crystals) is very rare, far less than 1% or listings. Thats gotta mean something. And when it is like that, its substantially more expensive and usually the description is more than "84% FIRE DUTCH MDMA BRO", which I imagine is just smaller fish down the line just reselling


----------



## sassyfrass

some of the most bunk stuff ive seen was white, almost translucent like that pic.
tested great on reagent but looks really aren't the measuring stick for magic.


----------



## indigoaura

@Hilopsilo The product I have is clear crystals, but they are very small. Kind of looks like salt. At this point, there is no way for me to source anything else before NYE. I would not take anything that had not been sent to a lab, and there is no way for me to source something and get lab results in 2 weeks. I will give this a go and see how it compares, I am just confused about how to dose it with an 80% result.


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 Any update on the meh samples?


----------



## Hilopsilo

sassyfrass said:


> some of the most bunk stuff ive seen was white, almost translucent like that pic.
> tested great on reagent but looks really aren't the measuring stick for magic.



Bunk in what sense, like entirely fake RC-molly, something thats been simply passed off as MDMA? Or stuff that tested as MDMA but wasn't so good?

if you mean the former, then I 100% agree, just straight colourless large-ish form crystals without much of a scent could really be anything. As opposed to say, brown sandy stuff that reeks of safrole/similar, you know for sure. And since MDMA is much rarer in the form I posted, MDMA is less likely to look like that, its more likely some RC. Thats why the first time I got MDMA that looked like that I was very suspicious, it tested fine, but I definitely had weird feelings about taking it since it didn't look the way it usually does.

Also indigo yours could simply be more crushed up too


----------



## SunriseChampion

PriestTheyCalledHim said:


> What is kambo? I searched for the term and poison dart or tree frogs came up.



Yeah, that's what it is.

Puking til your life is changed, or something like that after applying a certain frog's excreted venom (correct term?) on your skin in small amounts.


----------



## scatterday

SunriseChampion said:


> Yeah, that's what it is.
> 
> Puking til your life is changed, or something like that after applying a certain frog's excreted venom (correct term?) on your skin in small amounts.



Kambo poison contains several peptides that are responsible for cleansing the body. The peptides help the body purge harmful toxins which have entered the body.

There's a reason behind the purging/vomiting and it was something to do with the peptides causing contractions of the intestines and stomach.


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

SunriseChampion said:


> Yeah, that's what it is.
> 
> Puking til your life is changed, or something like that after applying a certain frog's excreted venom (correct term?) on your skin in small amounts.


It does not sound enjoyable to me.


----------



## blazR

It isn't 'enjoyable'... haven't tried it myself, but from personal experiences i've heard, it's not recreational at all..

What you get from it afterwards is worth it though.. again only from other people trying it


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Kambo is amazing for those living in deep jungle and infected with huge amounts of parasites. it will kill and cleanse their digestive system. Saldy australia has banned kambo now and NZ is looking to do the same. White people always ruin traditional things to make money. 

It leaves you feeling quite better a few days later.


----------



## G_Chem

Kambo is about as far away from recreational as it gets.  It’s for those that feel stuck in a rut and/or combatting certain medical issues.

For me it’s like a kick start that lasts a few weeks to a month, and like iboga gives the user and chance to make some changes before the after effects wear off back to baseline.

They use it to sometimes punish children of tribes, so yea it ain’t fun lol.

-GC


----------



## babooon87

sassyfrass said:


> some of the most bunk stuff ive seen was white, almost translucent like that pic.
> tested great on reagent but looks really aren't the measuring stick for magic.


That has also been my experience. The best stuff I had years ago were tiny off-white/light tan crystals that looked like what happends to the minerals when you put a magnet near sand (anyone gets what i'm talking about from that description ?)


----------



## G_Chem

Ok now some of you have been talking about Meh-DMA that looks like clear shards that’s shit...  I’ve tried to explain how I visually can see the difference but here’s a pic to help.



			https://i.redd.it/5rx1hvxgbn541.jpg
		


Notice how blocky these look, this is likely from way too much filler added to create the larger crystals.  I find this same thing with Ketamine, nowadays there’s boulders out there which look fairly similar to this but IMO aren’t as pure or good as some of the other Ketamine products out there.

My few potential run ins with Meh-DMA have looked more like this than what I’m used to..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@babooon87 The stuff I have right now has that magnet near sand appearance. That is a great way to describe it. It reminded me of some toys from the 80s where you used a magnet to draw pics in a black sand.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> @babooon87 The stuff I have right now has that magnet near sand appearance. That is a great way to describe it. It reminded me of some toys from the 80s where you used a magnet to draw pics in a black sand.


the most recent mdma i saw two ounces of really dark tan very sandy type crushed small / crystals i skipped on getting as my gut instinct deep down thought it was a bit on the lower quality side and didn't really trust the person with it.


----------



## G_Chem

So sandy ain’t always bad.. I almost always get the clear or light amber (but still fairly clear somehow) shards.  Well few years back my guy came to me with a batch of straight tan sand, there were a few tiny rocks that looked almost like chocolate that had sat for too long and got that whitish color to it.

I thought “oh this looks like garbage, but my guy is.. my guy and never does me wrong, tested legit and he’s willing to do up a great price..”

Not expecting to eat this stuff myself at first I went to a show and tossed a few g’s to a guy (no sales, I’m not a dealer) who then promptly sold it to the entire little 30-40 person venue.

I’ve never seen this before but in front of my eyes I watched an entire group of people come up AT THE SAME TIME.  It was like a flipped switch after about 35-45min.

At one point a girl walks up to me and just stares into my eyes and says “your my best friend.. no seriously I know you don’t know me but you absolutely mean the world to me, your my soulmate..”  And she wasn’t just saying this, she was 100% serious and her friends had to pull her off me lol.

So that’s what a random batch of sand can do haha..  Sand can be good, but I’d only trust it from a highly reliable source.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Yeah this sand was just been offered to anybody with cash so i inspected it aswell and just passed no reason to go to another random when i have been getting magic stuff anyway but i also trying to distant my self from mdma as i crave it alot and want to really stop using it now as the long term side effects have really fucked some parts of my life.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Is this sand stuff the same stuff sometimes advertised as 'champagne MDMA'? I plugged and parachuted some of that recently and was rolling just like it was the 1990s. Very similar experience to pills available in pills available in clubs across SEAsia in latter decades of last century. I would have described it as having the same magic and definitely not meh.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Depends on the country i had heard in this part that some sand stuff was been laced with n-ethylpetone tens of kgs of the shit has been seized here aswell so i thought there was some truth to the statement so its always best to have test kits when dealing with things you havent tried yet.


----------



## indigoaura

After following this thread for years now, I really don't know that there is any reliable correlation between appearance and effect. People have reported "magic" from clear crystals with no odor, smelly tan product, fluffy snow like product, etc. It is relevant to document the appearance and experience, but I don't think there is any strict rule. Same with the meh stuff. It seems to come in all sorts of appearances. 

@G_Chem That pic you posted looks like what I did back in October, and then prior to that in June. It looked very fused/clumped together into large pieces.


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> @babooon87 The stuff I have right now has that magnet near sand appearance. That is a great way to describe it. It reminded me of some toys from the 80s where you used a magnet to draw pics in a black sand.


And is the stuff legit ? Effects wise I mean. The 2-3 times I got some that looked like this in montreal around 2008-2009 it was by far far the best quality stuff I ever had. 100 mg would have people rolling balls. It had that classic rollercoaster ride that caracterises the pure mdma experience. The peak was in waves. I would get these waves of pure euphoric rushes with eyes rolling to the back of head then would almost feel sober a few minutes than another wave and so on for a few hours with an amazing relaxing afterglow that would last the whole weekend. I had  really good rolls over the years but these batches of crystal with this particular look was just on another level. It made me look super messy with huge pupils and DRENCHED in sweat so much people kept asking me if I was alright. The mdma these days have me look completely sober. After 2009 all the mdma I came across came in these big cocaine-like rocks of many shades and colors that seem to be the norm these days and that honestly never really delivered a satisfying roll at any dosages.

That's what this magic stuff looked like. I also had other drugs with this type of crystallisation like some batches of mephedrone and again the quality was second to none so there may be something there that is indicative of a quality synth.


----------



## indigoaura

@babooon87 I have not tried it yet. Will post a report after NYE.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

babooon87 said:


> And is the stuff legit ? Effects wise I mean. The 2-3 times I got some that looked like this in montreal around 2008-2009 it was by far far the best quality stuff I ever had. 100 mg would have people rolling balls. It had that classic rollercoaster ride that caracterises the pure mdma experience. The peak was in waves. I would get these waves of pure euphoric rushes with eyes rolling to the back of head then would almost feel sober a few minutes than another wave and so on for a few hours with an amazing relaxing afterglow that would last the whole weekend. I had  really good rolls over the years but these batches of crystal with this particular look was just on another level. It made me look super messy with huge pupils and DRENCHED in sweat so much people kept asking me if I was alright. The mdma these days have me look completely sober. After 2009 all the mdma I came across came in these big cocaine-like rocks of many shades and colors that seem to be the norm these days and that honestly never really delivered a satisfying roll at any dosages.
> View attachment 19192
> That's what this magic stuff looked like. I also had other drugs with this type of crystallisation like some batches of mephedrone and again the quality was second to none so there may be something there that is indicative of a quality synth.



Man, those iron filings are the fuckin bomb...


----------



## tripnnface

last roll was 2 different cp pills, and i was off my face, proper in every sense. best roll in a long time.


----------



## G_Chem

^^How long you been rolling? What presses were they?

-Gc


----------



## babooon87

I obtained some clear crystals for christmas. Hope it:s not meh. They look different from other clear  batches I say so I may be lucky. The rock is very hard and the faces reflect light in rainbow colors.


----------



## AutoTripper

Just a very random comment here guys. My 2 Dutch Bowser MDMA pills, which I bought in March for the purpose of of some self psychotherapy for trauma release and anxiety after years of illness about which I was fully confident.

But I was never sure if it would be safe for me physically to take the pills although I am very confident that they are as clean as I would hope to get pretty much hopefully mainly with cellulose as a binder because they are very crumbly and not solidly hard-pressed and laminated and you can see crystal throughout.

From a legit trusted Source Direct from Holland as well.

I would rather have pure MDMA crystal even if if not really pure and cuts like so many of your experiences and samples apparently.

Regarding my own potential adverse intolerance reaction to the MDMA pills I have I'm I'm almost equally concerned about the non MDMA ingredients. If I could tolerate say 100mg of MDMA without an adverse nervous system reaction which is very sensitive in my case just stimulant, if there was say 100mg of caffeine present as well that could cause me serious medical complications and an adverse nervous system reaction combining with the MDMA stimulation.

And I can't take sugar specifically certain forms without severe mucus production and respiratory aggravation which is always unpleasant when one is off one space trying to be comfortable on a psychedelic entactohen.

But most of all I just wanted Assurance that it would be physically safe for me to take the MDMA without any significant acute health danger.

I recently visited my homeopath who uses an advanced but very legitimate and accurate diagnostic tool called Vega testing which is used widely in mainstream German and Dutch medicine but I pressed and and attached with Propaganda especially in the USA and United Kingdom why do medical corporations.

Anyway this has been a fascinating privilege and experience over the years the diagnosis of very specific infections and locations and effective vibrational homoeopathic treatment.

Also the ability to test any particular food, remedy, herb, substance or otherwise with this technology to see how negatively or positively it may agree with my particular body and this can be completely carryable between different people.

I have tested countless things over the years and the feedback has always been 100% in line with my exact intuitive experience without fail.

I took various psychoactive compounds with me three different lysergamides and all tested exactly as I expected they were all pretty good:

 1p LSD was the least beneficial verging on on a slightly aggravating nature is one way to put it.

1cp LSD as I was dead sure beforehand from recent experience tested noticeably but not greatly better than 1plsd because 1plsd was more than acceptable.

But then we also tested the ALD 52 which I've not actually taken yet but strongly suspected it would actually test slightly better than the other two and this was the case it was noticeably better in the positive Direction because the others were already that way themselves.

Next time I will test lsd-25 itself which will be interesting to see if it's tests even better than ald-52 or equal or less so.


Now, I also tested kava. Very good. Zero negative or harmful indication.

Ktatom (this particular herb very strongly disagrees with me and severely messes up my digestive system it would kill me if I took it daily no exagerration).  Kratom showed a high level of irritation. 

So did Kanna extract, (which I recently enjoyed for powerful anyiolysis and lomg lasting antidepressant effects).  But the kanna did upset my digestion each time I'm as well as as a respiratory aggravation although I did recover from this unlike the kratom which basically leaves me is severely malnourished and unable to eat 4-days of major intestinal blockage it's torture I won't take that stuff again.



(The Kava- actually massively helps with my intestines and: and seems to be a tonic and cleanse.)


So I got some really useful feedback on all of those which my intuition and experience matched with 100% and I basically predicted in my mind and as the results were displayed.  

But the point- I also tested my Dutch Bowser MDMA pill and what was really interesting was that it was indicated towards the irritating side of things but not off the scale nothing like "take this and you will die sort of thing".

I think I probably could get away with taking it orally at sensible dosage of course but I would still be more confident about rectal administration because I would still suffer digestive upsets and respiratory mucus production from anything ingested orally.



So I may be able to revisit the MDMA experience when I'm strong enough and prepared. However I am also very torn on this because I have so much going for me in terms of my imagination and brain function especially when it comes to social situations and communication and being perceptive and on the ball and confident within myself and my own brain and imagination and vision of things at all times.

This is despite massive be compromised mental and physical function of sleep deprivation malnourishment etc.

I would not want to take MDMA once or twice and feel as though I had lost a certain type of of efficient mental and memory functioning and processing ability to a degree to myself.

When I am making very good progress treating and clearing trauma and stress and developing spiritually and psychologically with non brain damaging lysergamides and additional psychoactive herbs.     


So I will have to give this one some thought, at the right time. Overall, even if I do perceive a definite change to my cognitive functioing, what I seek may mote than compensate and "me" could be better overall.


----------



## AutoTripper

Oh the most surprising and ONLY unexpected thing from the Vega testing- Etizolam blotters! 

I tried the Etizolam recently for severe anxiety. Bizarrely, I tolerate the Etizolam very well. No noticeable respiratory effects or mucus production- (RARE!)

No stomach bother. Actually the opposite it has been amazing at relaxing my mind and therefore gut and whole body enabling me to eat and digest food much better when it is vital for my survival that I am able to do this.

But I was feeling really guilty about the Etizolam. Like I shouldn't be doing it at all sort of thing and I was expecting it to be indicated as negative or harmful for my body with the Vega testing. Although my experience of it has been very comfortable and it seems to have been really helpful to me all round.


Anyway out of everything I tested that day the etizolam tested the best buy a good shot as in in showing very positive signs of being really beneficial for my body right now.

Somehow how it would appear that this supposedly toxic benzodiazepine type compound my actually be worth me taking for the meantime with discipline. 

Sorry guys just sharing this feedback on these different substances because it's so interesting and revealing to myself. I really hope to give a subjective report on the MDMA pill at some point I definitely want to look into the rectal administration.


----------



## KnowsNotWhatItMean

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!


Yeah, it's always been so weird to me how come this stuff's so popular when I hate it, kinda explains it to me. I have a resentment to the idea of this drug.


----------



## babooon87

Ok hard clear crystal reflecting light in rainbow colors = legit. A miracle happened tonight,... Drum rollll ! My pupils dilated !


----------



## babooon87

Wow, incredible !! My first real roll since 2010. With 50 mg methallylescaline + 150 ug 1cp-lsd in the background this is reallly epic. Merry christmas everyone.!! Hope you are all tripping or rolling hard !! Take care ! you might be fooling a couple of reageant tests and lab analists that have no clue what they are looking for but ya aint fooling us long time drug users that have done it all ànd seen it all. Ohhh so the dutch superlabs are producing pills that not only are pure mdma but also dosed at 2-3 times the normal dose. Ohhh look how suddenly the the criminal conglomerates are really concerned that we roll hard and have a good time... yeah the same people that seemed ok with the idea of pressing disgusting bzp-tfmpp pills and passing that off as mdma without a second thought... yeah, they are reaaaaallyyyy concerned that we roll hard. Well Guess what ? We aint rolling !! Not even close ! you think people would find it absolutely normal to have unsatisfying effects from 200-300 mg of pure mdma ? That we would find it normal to fall sleep during an Ecstasy Peak ? really ?? yEAHHH it is all in our head,. Drug users are the problem not the product ! Yeah right , like we don't know exactly what a certain drug is supposed to do after having consumed over 60 different conmpounds over the last 15 years !! We, here on bluelight forums, that are some of the most passionate people for psychoactivity will not believe your bullshit and we WILL call you out on it every step of the way you can count on that !!!

Edit : So yeah, hard clear crystals with faces reflecting light in rainbow colors is the real deal. I knew immediately when I saw it. Something about it looked very different from the life-less, boring, transparent crystal meh-dma that I have seen over the past decade..


----------



## indigoaura

@babooon87 If you don't mind me asking, where are you located? What country/state? Did you do any reagent testing on this product? If so, does anything stand out? What has your usage been like over the last decade? Did you have a lot of meh experiences? Merry Christmas!!!

I have not heard anything back from Energy Control or @vash445 regarding my samples. Hope to get some more data soon to post here.


----------



## indigoaura

So, tonight I saw some product that was unusual. @babooon87 commented on product that has a magnetic sand quality. The product I currently have has that texture, but in color it is still translucent/white. Tonight I saw something that had that same magnetic/sand texture, but it was dark brown/black. Never seen product that dark before. When I opened the bag to smell the product, it REEKED. This was definitely the same smell that I am familiar with from long ago. However, despite the familiar smell, the color of the product made me a bit concerned.

Actually, it looked a lot like the product that this poster shared in the first post: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/is-this-too-much.881401/

My connection said it was very strong, actually "too strong" with a hard comedown the next day. He described crazy eye jitters. I've known this person a long time, and trust the feedback. 

Based on everything we have talked about here, seems like any product that is dark brown/black has got to be impure. At the very least, it has not been washed or re-crystallized. Are there any specific synth methods that would cause the product to be so dark? The smell and the reports from my acquaintance made me curious, however. Think it is worth it to pick some up and send off to a lab? Seems ill advised to consume it without more info.

Also, this made me wonder, does anyone know what Leuckart MDMA would have looked like? Would that method have produced different colored product, or a product with a specific appearance?


----------



## indigoaura

Also, to @vash445 or @vecktor or @G_Chem  or anyone else who knows what it means, Energy Control added a PDF file to my account today. It does not seem very detailed to me, but I don't know how to read the info. I uploaded the file here: https://gofile.io/?c=uPsGA1


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Also, to @vash445 or @vecktor or @G_Chem  or anyone else who knows what it means, Energy Control added a PDF file to my account today. It does not seem very detailed to me, but I don't know how to read the info. I uploaded the file here: https://gofile.io/?c=uPsGA1


Thats a UV/vis spectra with the table of the absorbance at the certain wavelength pretty basic for them just to send you that and makes me wonder if they just make up their results for % of mdma in products and just say everything is mdma if it looks like it on a basic level thus scamming their customers.


----------



## G_Chem

I agree with TripSitter... How rare is it to get a purity that lands straight on 80%? I’m truly beginning to believe these labs are bullshit.  I trust EData a little bit more but then you have the US gov keeping them in check on handing out information.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

@indigoaura - So that product sounds like MDA potentially, if not likely some “sassy” MDMA.

It’s been reported by many, including myself, that the darker impurities can sometimes give product a more intense feel due to increased stimulation and bodily effects.

I personally stopped using darker MDMA many years ago (last batch I ate personally was probably 8yrs ago) because while it feels good it’s harsh on my body and I’d often wind up with an aching back from muscle tension.  I’m also not a fan of grinding my teeth.

Really pure product has MUCH less physical side effects, in fact the purest product sometimes doesn’t even feel like your on a drug.  You’ve just unlocked the ability to feel infinite amounts of love for your fellow man, but it feels like it’s coming from inside naturally as opposed to forcefully from an outside force/drug.

My best rolls on the cleanest product always had that feel to me.

That said MANY, in fact most from what I’ve heard, people seem to enjoy the intensity that darker product provides.  Honestly if o was you I’d grab a little to try just to see if that floats your boat 

As for Leuckart, from what I’ve gathered it’d likely be a light pink or light orangey/brown (possibly) and probably more likely a powdery sandy crystal.  Remember though reagents should show too, the Marquis on Leuckart product should go immediately black to cobalt blue over 30secs.

The color of the product is somewhat of a guess.  So when MDA first came on the scene in the 70’s USA there was brown MDA, white MDA, but the prizes of them all was “Uncle Toms Pink Sassafras MDA.”  Supposedly made all the others look like garbage in comparison.

Back then Leuckart was likely one of the main routes for MDA and MDMA.

In the 90’s when labs were producing both MDMA and amphetamines in the same spot with the Leuckart, oxblood speed was huge.  It was considered the best of the best, and cherished by those that remember.  It too had a red or pink coloration.

What these drugs had in common was there synth route, and when that synth route when out of fashion EVERYBODY complained that the MDMA, MDA, meth and amphetamine was no longer the same.  It was also around this time that oxblood speed disappeared, as well as any pinkish hued MDMA and MDA.

If you look this same conversation exists for meth and to a lesser extent MDA.  Meth users swear the early 90s product was insane, even though it was racemic and impure.  Today’s pure d-meth seems to lack for them.  I’ve concluded in my research that it isn’t due to the racemic vs d-isomer so much as possible synth route used.

God one day someone is going to mass produce Leuckart MDMA again and when they do we’ll all dance in celebration 

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

So, @TripSitterNZ even though it says they did GCMS, this is not a GCMS report but a UV report? It looks like a kid drew the lines with crayons. This is not what I spent $120 for, at all. I wanted to see the raw GCMS data, but it seems like they may not even have raw data. Also, seems like I really should not trust the percentage they are giving me, from what you are saying. It could be a higher or lower percent than that. 

I will pick up some of that darker product and send to E-Data. I won't get the percentage, but at least can check for known contaminants at a lower cost. I will try to get a picture as well.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> I will pick up some of that darker product and send to E-Data. I won't get the percentage, but at least can check for known contaminants at a lower cost. I will try to get a picture as well.



I think if these labs were good at finding contaminants we would have had all our answers to this thread a long time ago.  They are just all looking completely bs at this point.  Maybe politely ask for the GCMS data or your money back.


----------



## AutoTripper

As always mate again very interesting discourse and snippets you have picked up up to share here. But...


G_Chem said:


> I personally stopped using darker MDMA many years ago



I didn't know you were Darkist! 
Sorry I am high and merry on Kava and weed again. It's difficult not to be jovial, especially when I'm feeling so much better physically after recovered tummy and digestive upset and ailments etc.

But my main point, one purely of hope and maybe a little reason:


G_Chem said:


> God one day someone is going to mass produce Leuckart MDMA again and when they do we’ll all dance in celebration


I would love to think that an entirely new synth route could be discovered, which would be sufficiently equal or superior to Leuckart. 

Even more ideally- the drug war crumbles and MDMA is finally acknowledged and demanded as a valid therapeutic psychotherapy agent as is almost guaranteed to happen scientifically at least if not politically....

And we will see the beginning of saffrole tree (forget name) plantations.

Im an eternal optimist me. But look at weed legality in US, Canada, Other countiries.

United Kingdom within 10, likely 5 years max. 
Shrooms increasingly legal over US. 

The scientific evidence on psychedelic medicines safety and efficacy will continue to strengthen to the point of of virtual undeniability.

Okay lost my (weak) point. Im just optimistic more changes will occur. Nothing is fixed and I seriously hope that MDMA can improve greatly again and I really believe this could happen especially if all you guys keep at it and Trigger a tidal wave of awareness and enquiry and demand.



Happy returns for Christmas guys/girls. My first here at Bluelight but love this place and being accepted/among all you genuine, passionate souls here.☺


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> So, @TripSitterNZ even though it says they did GCMS, this is not a GCMS report but a UV report? It looks like a kid drew the lines with crayons. This is not what I spent $120 for, at all. I wanted to see the raw GCMS data, but it seems like they may not even have raw data. Also, seems like I really should not trust the percentage they are giving me, from what you are saying. It could be a higher or lower percent than that.
> 
> I will pick up some of that darker product and send to E-Data. I won't get the percentage, but at least can check for known contaminants at a lower cost. I will try to get a picture as well.


Hey there. I just want to suggest that if I was in your shoes the injustice but not just that cowardness and Frank dishonesty is what I would be motivated by most here and I think I would simply continue to contact them directly and politely and us are particularly an accurately as possible asking questions and making points so try and get some sort of sense and clarification even if it is just a basic admittance that they made up this or that or don't have such and such capability after all etc.

It would at least be like putting a liar on the spot but without backing them into a corner and certainly making them even more self-conscious and self humiliated by their own awareness and recognition.

I'm just thinking of yourself really and effort and hope you have put into this. Just feel really explicit about the fact all you care about is is exploring every possible Avenue to find some answers regarding this matter and please could they share any extra details with you which could help in the direction you go in.

If they can feel no pressure or embarrassment as well well then they may be more likely to open up and come a little cleaner with you.

That's all I will say because I know nothing of the real world matters in honesty and you have been dealing with them and doing this I'm just a kind of psychologist when it comes to people and angles of persuasion that's all plus a hugely unrealistic optimist at times.

Whatever happens don't be deterred and keep on probing nothing difficult is achievable without determination and a genuine belief.


----------



## indigoaura

Thanks, @AutoTripper. I will certainly keep emailing them, but I do not have a lot of optimism for this situation. I have already emailed them multiple times. I have emailed multiple contact addresses. No one has replied to me. I even used Google translate to type my message in Spanish in the hopes that perhaps it was a language issue and that would get a reply. Nothing. I will message them again and thank them for the PDF that appeared, but according to their advertising they state that the $120 includes, "a complete PDF report including the raw graphs and data from the techniques used."

I really expected more. At least I know not to waste my money on their services in the future.


----------



## indigoaura

Getting a little worried about @vash445. He has not logged in here since December 3. Back at the end of November, he said I should expect results for my samples in a few weeks.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> Getting a little worried about @vash445. He has not logged in here since December 3. Back at the end of November, he said I should expect results for my samples in a few weeks.



Sorry out of country family emergency. I'll ask himin the next few days


----------



## trogere

TripSitterNZ said:


> Kambo is amazing for those living in deep jungle and infected with huge amounts of parasites. it will kill and cleanse their digestive system. Saldy australia has banned kambo now and NZ is looking to do the same. White people always ruin traditional things to make money.
> 
> It leaves you feeling quite better a few days later.


What I heared about the death from kambo in Australia is that the person was probably under the effects of strong opiates for chronic pain and got pushed into quick withdrawal by the kambo.


----------



## G_Chem

Kambo without a doubt can kill.  It’s a potent medicine not to be taken lightly.  It’s the only substance i absolutely refuse to do without a sitter, and I’m usually a go solo kinda guy.

The “frog face” histamine reaction people get alone is dangerous and I’ve heard of throats closing.  I highly suggest for those using it to look up breathing techniques for a closed throat.

Thankfully the histamine reaction is usually swift so a well trained guide can get a person through it if they wipe off the venom and then try to guide the persons breathing while they attempt to pull air through a wind pipe the size of a coffee straw for a few mins.

I’ve even heard of guides having to give breath in a CPR-esque fashion to participants to get them through.

I carry an epi-pen on me during a session just Incase although I’m worried there could be additional complications between the epi and the other active constituents.  (One of which hits the norepinephrine system pretty hard.) So I keep on hand only if it’s a do or die situation.

My first time I had zero histamine reaction, while my brother got a lil froggy.  Second time I only had a histamine reaction locally where the venom was applied.

Sad it’s being made illegal though, cuz I have a feeling there’s some big potential with it.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Is it really necessary to burn your flesh and then apply the toxin to the wound though?

Sounds a bit like contracting bubonic plague to mask the effects of a cold to me...


----------



## TripSitterNZ

new floods of high dose pills hit here for summer 300 mg mdma + alot of caffeine. Hard to resist once mdma is around i crave it hard but i hate caffeine in pills.


----------



## G_Chem

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Is it really necessary to burn your flesh and then apply the toxin to the wound though?
> 
> Sounds a bit like contracting bubonic plague to mask the effects of a cold to me...



I have researched extensively and while it seems the venom is active via other ROA’s, the natives warn against using it via any ROA besides the burning method.  According to the natives not using this method can lead to “frog disease.”

No clue if it’s just bullshit or not but I’m not keen on contracting no frog disease lol

Also another reason it’s administered via burns is because the substance is taken up by the lymphatic system when done this way.  This is supposed to have a positive effect on the immune system from my research (years ago now so may be off.)

To me an hour of getting sick (don’t read into my 24hr chuck session, I do that without any drugs sometimes) which is the typical duration, is worth the weeks of after effects as well as strengthening my immune system.

Remember too that you aren’t just chucking @F.U.B.A.R. you got the dermorphin and other opioid peptide that i forget the name of fucking you up proper.  Your throwing up but your pretty numbed and spaced out during, like the venom tries to protect you from the harshest parts of the experience.  (Or the frog wants you puking and nodding so it can hop away lol.)

I’m one that thinks most people should try most drugs, but Kambo is unique and only for those that need it or are masochistic lol.

Sorry though I’ll stop distracting from topic now 

-GC


----------



## trogere

G_Chem said:


> Kambo without a doubt can kill.  It’s a potent medicine not to be taken lightly.  It’s the only substance i absolutely refuse to do without a sitter, and I’m usually a go solo kinda guy.



Hyponatremia is something to watch for too. I heard of someone dying because he drank way too much water without puking it during a ceremony somewhere in the USA.


----------



## AutoTripper

Damn swines on making Kambo illegal. Useful timing after the recentlt bigvnewsl8ne desth in the jungle of a British tourist.

I seriously hope it remains legal in the UK because I definitely need to see this treatment out. Typical bastards.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

So my tlc experiments haven't made much progress, but I'd like to do something proactive into the new year.

Maybe we could pick up on @Glubrahnum 's idea of sending a similar substance to MDMA to some of the testing services and seeing if they can differentiate it or not: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14649553

So what's the best way of going about it?  Which compound would be most illuminating in testing these services?  Can it/they be bought for a reasonable amount, and are they legel in the uk?  I was thinking of testing out e.g. Wedinos, Energy Control.

I think this one came top on the list, but the shipping and handling to the EU is 100 dollars on this site


----------



## indigoaura

So, I picked up some of that sassy smelling product. Tested it. It is NOT MDMA. Looks like MDA, but I suppose it is possible it is 6APB. Marquis went purple black; Mandelin went black; Simon's did nothing. My Mecke test is too old and has changed colors. I could not get a clear result with the Mecke. 

In any case, this is not something I would consume without lab verification, just to be safe. Also, not so sure how I feel about MDA at this point in my life. It really messed me up the last time I did it. I got the most severe headache and thought I would need to go to the ER. Admittedly, I had mixed it with 2CB which was apparently ill-advised, but still. I feel more cautious about MDA now.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, finally, from IEC (@AutoTripper, thanks for the encouragement here. I emailed them again and explained our efforts in more detail, and finally got a reply):



> Your sample was analyzed with GC/MS for the qualitative analysis and UV for
> the quantitative analysis.We quantify against an MDMA.HCl standard, so the
> maximum theoretical purity is 100%, out of which your sample tested as 80%
> MDMA.HCl. I'm back in the lab next week and can share the raw data for the
> sample with you, if you'd like. It's in .d format, although I can't recall
> off the top of my head if this sample in particular was done through TIC or
> SIM (my colleague handles this kind of analysis, but I'll gather all the
> relevant data and send it to you).


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> Also, finally, from IEC (@AutoTripper, thanks for the encouragement here. I emailed them again and explained our efforts in more detail, and finally got a reply):


Will wait and see, there should be no way thay are running selected ion mode SIM if they are then they will simply not see so many things.
there are plenty of free MS programs that can read a agilent .d file.
the 80% by UV IS is absolutely worthless or meaningless unless there were no other compounds present that absorb UV with a similar spectrum as MDMA.
testing the drug testers is pretty pointless, it will not get us any closer to an answer about meh or magic all it will show is how low is low when it comes to the quality data of the testers produce.


----------



## indigoaura

Happy New Year!

If nothing else, the experience of documenting all these various samples/effects has been really interesting.

I decided to dose the tested product as though it were genuinely 80% MDMA. I decided I wanted a 120 mg starting dose, so I took 150 mg. On my re-doses, they weighed at 100 mg, so would have been 80 mg re-doses (theoretically). 

I ate lunch at noon, and did not eat anything else other than 3 chicken nuggets around 6 pm. So, I was very hungry when I actually took the first dose.

At 11 pm, took 150 mg.

I felt like I was feeling something about 15 minutes later. Not a lot, but something. 30 minutes later, I was feeling it. My eyes were dilating already at 30 minutes in. 

So, here is where it gets interesting. The vibe was soooo different than any of the products I have done recently. Also, it felt incredibly clean. I think @G_Chem has commented on how really clean product feels like you are not on anything at all, and that is kind of what this was like. I just felt really happy with everyone I was surrounded with, and deeply content. It felt like a really good day. 

However, the product completely lacked any "rushy" or "speedy" sensations. It felt devoid of dopamine to me. Out of everything I have tried, if anything was isomer heavy and not racemic, it was this stuff. There was a subtle, soft, psychedelia as well. Not visuals or anything so obvious, but just the way the brain made connections between ideas was very psychedelic in nature. Someone had put the movie "Holy Mountain" on I was having all these ideas and symbolic interpretations of what I was seeing in the film.

At midnight, I got hit with a wave of nausea and had to go sit down. Everyone clinked glasses and I was like, "Whoa, I need to find a sofa."

However, I never felt sleepy like on the meh stuff. I was eager to talk and sit with people and socialize. I did tarot reading with some friends. 

At 12:45, I took a second dose of 100 mg (80 mg). 

I continued hanging with people, playing music, talking, wandering the party etc.

Probably around 3 am, I took another 100 mg (80 mg) re-dose.

Sex was different too. Usually X sex is very feral for me, but this was just incredibly intimate and warm. Unique, but not like my typical experience.

Probably around 5 am, I just suddenly became super tired. I started falling asleep while watching movies with people. I got up and went to bed. Slept fine. Woke up feeling great. I would be very surprised if there is any come-down, because it all just felt so clean. No headaches or stomach aches or any of that bullshit.

However, I never had major jaw clenching or eye jitters. 

My eyes DID dilate though. 

Go figure.

It just makes me wonder how many variations in MDMA there are, because clearly, each batch is just DIFFERENT. This stuff was not like anything I have had before, but it was lovely and light. Honestly, I'd like to stock up and keep it around as an option, because it worked really well for socializing. However, I don't know that it would work that well for the "all night sex" component that my partner and I enjoy. I can't say that physical touch really felt enhanced with this product, although there was an enhanced feeling of connection & closeness. 

Empathy - 7
Euphoria - 6
Psychedelic imagery/thoughts - 6
Eye Jitters - 0
Jaw clenching - 2
Eye dilation - 7
Tactile sensations - 3
Pro-social behavior - 7
Sleepiness - 0


----------



## psy997

I found good stuff this past week. 80mg had me feeling loved up for a while.


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> So, tonight I saw some product that was unusual. @babooon87 commented on product that has a magnetic sand quality. The product I currently have has that texture, but in color it is still translucent/white. Tonight I saw something that had that same magnetic/sand texture, but it was dark brown/black. Never seen product that dark before. When I opened the bag to smell the product, it REEKED. This was definitely the same smell that I am familiar with from long ago. However, despite the familiar smell, the color of the product made me a bit concerned.
> 
> Actually, it looked a lot like the product that this poster shared in the first post: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/is-this-too-much.881401/
> 
> My connection said it was very strong, actually "too strong" with a hard comedown the next day. He described crazy eye jitters. I've known this person a long time, and trust the feedback.
> 
> Based on everything we have talked about here, seems like any product that is dark brown/black has got to be impure. At the very least, it has not been washed or re-crystallized. Are there any specific synth methods that would cause the product to be so dark? The smell and the reports from my acquaintance made me curious, however. Think it is worth it to pick some up and send off to a lab? Seems ill advised to consume it without more info.
> 
> Also, this made me wonder, does anyone know what Leuckart MDMA would have looked like? Would that method have produced different colored product, or a product with a specific appearance?



I would not be that concerned by a very dark color. I once got crystals that were black and looked like pieces of coal. I was very skeptical but it ended being pretty good. It was the best MDMA I got since 2009 before I got last week's bomb. The black stuff seemed like pretty legit magicDMA but full of synthesis impurities and had to be dosed a bit higher (around 200 mg for a good strong roll). Have you tried washing the dark stuff with anhydrous acetone ? It would probably clear up a lot after that.

Edit : just say you tested a batch on new years eve. Was it the dark magnet stuff ?



indigoaura said:


> @babooon87 If you don't mind me asking, where are you located? What country/state? Did you do any reagent testing on this product?



I am located in Québec, Canada. I have not used reagents in a few years as I almost exlusively take RC drugs from legal vendors which have always been legit. The only street drug I still take is methamphetamine and I do not need reagents to know if it is legit as I have been using it for more than a decade and know what to look for. As for MDMA it is not a drug I take very often these days ( in fact this thread is what peaked my curiosity to take it again, just for science you know...) and from what I read MehDMA fools them mostly so no I do not have reagents at the moment.



TripSitterNZ said:


> new floods of high dose pills hit here for summer 300 mg mdma + alot of caffeine. Hard to resist once mdma is around i crave it hard but i hate caffeine in pills.



I second that ! I also despise caffeine as a cut in any drug. It feels so dirty I would much prefer they put an inactive cut. They always put it in meth pills around here and it pissed me off. It adds absolutely nothing positive to the buzz, only more side effects.


----------



## indigoaura

@babooon87 
The stuff I took last night was not the dark sassy stuff that I just got, but it did have that magnetized texture. However, not a dark magnet, this stuff was clear white tiny crystals. Looked like white sand, or table salt. It was advertised as having been synthesized according to the Shulgin Pikhal method, then washed and re-crystallized through vacuum distillation. I sent it to International Energy Control and they claimed it was 80% MDMA. 

I wanted to add as well, that although the NYE product was a good, clean experience, it did not feel like my early 00s ecstasy. I am wondering more and more if what I had during that era was leuckart synthed MDMA.


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> @babooon87
> The stuff I took last night was not the dark sassy stuff that I just got, but it did have that magnetized texture. However, not a dark magnet, this stuff was clear white tiny crystals. Looked like white sand, or table salt. It was advertised as having been synthesized according to the Shulgin Pikhal method, then washed and re-crystallized through vacuum distillation. I sent it to International Energy Control and they claimed it was 80% MDMA.
> 
> I wanted to add as well, that although the NYE product was a good, clean experience, it did not feel like my early 00s ecstasy. I am wondering more and more if what I had during that era was leuckart synthed MDMA.



Possibly, in fact I doubt people were reagent testing in those years so it could have been cut with something else also. I know when I started taking MDMA in the 2000's, before reagent tests were widespread, almost all the E's were cut with a bit of speed and were more hyper/stimulating. I was surprised years later when I tried pure mdma how I was floored in comparison and was very content just laying on a couch.


----------



## indigoaura

@babooon87 I was actually part of the Dancesafe crew, and I tested all my products with reagent in the 00s. I also sent pills in to ecstasydata frequently. So, in my particular case, I know that the pills I was eating were MDMA as identified by ecstasy data. Some of my pills were MDA, and I could always tell which pills were MDA due to the effects. I can think of 1 or 2 times that there was a mix of black and orange on the marquis test, and I knew that the pills had a bit of speed in them. Those experiences were always notable because I could not sleep. But overall, my pills were not cut. I could link you the lab results on pills I personally sent in. So, although there were a lot of questionable pills going around at that time, that is not the explanation for what I experienced. I was consuming pills that were tested as MDMA, that felt completely different than the MDMA powder/crystal/molly I have had in later years.

I don't know if you were on this thread when I explained my history, but I had one supplier from 2000-2005, then he retired. I experienced one thing from 2000-2005, and then never experienced it again. My supplier's retirement correlated with a major bust in the area that shut down several trafficking rings. He always said it was coming in through "the Asian mafia" (whatever that means). When this bust went down, several local nightclubs and restaurants were closed in association with it. They were packing the ecstasy into the city inside of fish. It would be delivered to the restaurants, and then funneled to the night clubs.

My only point in sharing this is that whoever my supplier was working with was bringing in some specific kind of product, because it was very consistent. I never had to worry with this guy, and he would let me test up front and pick whichever pills produced the result I liked the most.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

One person died in NZ from laced mdma today and a bunch of others almost did in the same house it put them to sleep nearly instantly and survivors were awoken by police taken to hopistal. This is sadly the outcome for when people refuse to test their drugs. Will be interesting to see what the substance since it just put them straight to sleep and almost killed them.


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> @babooon87 I was actually part of the Dancesafe crew, and I tested all my products with reagent in the 00s. I also sent pills in to ecstasydata frequently. So, in my particular case, I know that the pills I was eating were MDMA as identified by ecstasy data. Some of my pills were MDA, and I could always tell which pills were MDA due to the effects. I can think of 1 or 2 times that there was a mix of black and orange on the marquis test, and I knew that the pills had a bit of speed in them. Those experiences were always notable because I could not sleep. But overall, my pills were not cut. I could link you the lab results on pills I personally sent in. So, although there were a lot of questionable pills going around at that time, that is not the explanation for what I experienced. I was consuming pills that were tested as MDMA, that felt completely different than the MDMA powder/crystal/molly I have had in later years.
> 
> I don't know if you were on this thread when I explained my history, but I had one supplier from 2000-2005, then he retired. I experienced one thing from 2000-2005, and then never experienced it again. My supplier's retirement correlated with a major bust in the area that shut down several trafficking rings. He always said it was coming in through "the Asian mafia" (whatever that means). When this bust went down, several local nightclubs and restaurants were closed in association with it. They were packing the ecstasy into the city inside of fish. It would be delivered to the restaurants, and then funneled to the night clubs.
> 
> My only point in sharing this is that whoever my supplier was working with was bringing in some specific kind of product, because it was very consistent. I never had to worry with this guy, and he would let me test up front and pick whichever pills produced the result I liked the most.



Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Makes sense. It goes back to why this whole thread was created in the first place : stuff getting the same results from lab analysis but with different effects. And yes, MDA I always found pretty easy to tell from MDMA, it becomes very obvious about 2 -3 hours in (visuals effects starting (watery type of visuals that I never had from anything else, difficulty communicating, loosing train of thought etc) .


----------



## Last-Don-Pablo

I first rolled when I was 14 in 1999. I would be the one in charge of getting my group of friends rolls. I always got real deal MDMA. 1 example my 2nd time rolling in Chicago when I was 15 I remember a college aged girl hugged me and I was floored. That nausea sucked, but BL taught me to take rolaids so I wouldn't get sick. That intense rush where some ppl like to puke,  I would hold it in, after the nausea I would roll hard from 11:30pm - at least 5am. on 1 pill! I used to read bluelight during high school in my Ecko hoodie. lol.

WTF happened. the only positive thing about modern "molly" is that there is no draining feeling, probably because no serotonin is being released. 

Chicago had the "mints" 10 years ago during the Skrillex EDM re surgance.

Does the problem have anything to do with sassafrass bark shortages?  Or is it just greedy shysters using cheap chemicals?

☆everything @Le Junk said was fact. I love the Dallas reference. I have old VHS where I recorded Ecstasy news docs.
**my thing is I think it's not Real if there is no empathy lovey dovey feeling & body buzz similar to feeling of orgasm but not sexual.
I wish I would have saved a jar from the year 2000. But the demand was so high that ppl would trade diamonds for a roll.

I just read a reply about isomers. Please give me some hope....how do research scientists get it. is it sassafrass bark etc. 

I registered just to talk about sad state of Modern E.

I think that Dallas club was the 1st place that discovered recreational E. I forgot the story but it rings a bell.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vecktor said:


> testing the drug testers is pretty pointless, it will not get us any closer to an answer about meh or magic all it will show is how low is low when it comes to the quality data of the testers produce.



My logic for it was that its absolute proof that they're not doing it right, so potentially pressure could be put on them to smarten their act up.  It's a bit of a desperate long game move I admit but I'm getting ansty twiddling my thumbs.  I don't have access to any testing facilities apart from the likes of EC and Wedinos, but would love to help move things forward.


----------



## vash445

Last-Don-Pablo said:


> I first rolled when I was 14 in 1999. I would be the one in charge of getting my group of friends rolls. I always got real deal MDMA. 1 example my 2nd time rolling in Chicago when I was 15 I remember a college aged girl hugged me and I was floored. That nausea sucked, but BL taught me to take rolaids so I wouldn't get sick. That intense rush where some ppl like to puke,  I would hold it in, after the nausea I would roll hard from 11:30pm - at least 5am. on 1 pill! I used to read bluelight during high school in my Ecko hoodie. lol.
> 
> WTF happened. the only positive thing about modern "molly" is that there is no draining feeling, probably because no serotonin is being released.
> 
> Chicago had the "mints" 10 years ago during the Skrillex EDM re surgance.
> 
> Does the problem have anything to do with sassafrass bark shortages?  Or is it just greedy shysters using cheap chemicals?
> 
> ☆everything @Le Junk said was fact. I love the Dallas reference. I have old VHS where I recorded Ecstasy news docs.
> **my thing is I think it's not Real if there is no empathy lovey dovey feeling & body buzz similar to feeling of orgasm but not sexual.
> I wish I would have saved a jar from the year 2000. But the demand was so high that ppl would trade diamonds for a roll.
> 
> I just read a reply about isomers. Please give me some hope....how do research scientists get it. is it sassafrass bark etc.
> 
> I registered just to talk about sad state of Modern E.
> 
> I think that Dallas club was the 1st place that discovered recreational E. I forgot the story but it rings a bell.


I had a batch of sassy oil, connections made some it's def not recourser


----------



## indigoaura

@Last-Don-Pablo I feel everything you are saying. Our histories sound similar, at least in time frame. I rolled for the first time in early 2000. Your description is also on point, "my thing is I think it's not Real if there is no empathy lovey dovey feeling & body buzz similar to feeling of orgasm but not sexual."

For me, that feeling could go sexual if in the right company, but even in a platonic setting, the feeling would still be there beneath the surface. 

I don't expect to match the experience of my first and second rolls, because I recognize that the newness of the experience and the power of youth are something that just cannot be re-captured. But, I had a good 5 year period of steady supply with reliable and predictable results. After my supplier left, I never found it again. 

This thread is devoted to figuring it out. Wish we had 100% answers. There are a lot of possibilities at this point. More later!


----------



## indigoaura

Anyone have any ideas about the lavender/purple MDMA coming out of Canada? What in the world would produce that color?


----------



## indigoaura

Have we looked at this article before? They show mass spectrum results for various impurities from multiple synth routes.


			Sci-Hub | Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities. Forensic Science International, 152(2-3), 175–184 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> Anyone have any ideas about the lavender/purple MDMA coming out of Canada? What in the world would produce that color?


Funny you mention that I got some of that a month ago. It was bright purple like someone added dye to it. It was pretty meh if I recall. I took 300 mg for weak and disapointing effects.


----------



## indigoaura

Here is another study. @vecktor, perhaps this one could shed some light on the data you were looking at from @vash445.

"Generally we did not observe overlapping of the peaks in the profiles but there are some exceptions, i.e. MDMA peak overlaps partly with the peak of compound 16 (Fig. 1b) and compound 17 (Fig. 2b)."



			https://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/palladium/pdf/Basic%20and%20neutral%20route%20specific%20impurities%20in%20MDMA%20prepared%20by%20different%20synthesis%20methods%20Comparison%20of%20impurity%20profiles.pdf


----------



## G_Chem

@indigoaura - You were Dancesafe crew huh? Appreciate your service  I actually got a Dancesafe tattoo from my earlier days and while I wasn’t a volunteer, a lot of my friends were and my old town has one of the biggest number of total volunteers in the country.  Maybe that’s why we have such good product around here lol.

After seeing your latest experience my guess too is that you either had Leuckart MDMA and/or a tolerance issue.  I’m thinking both probably.

While it seems most of the US was switched from Leuckart to other routes around 2000, most of the US product back then was also EU imported.  We can only assume that the EU producers switched around then.

That said, you know with fair certainty that your product then was Asian sourced.  From my memory there’s a study from Hong Kong around 2002-2003 which showed that a fair amount of the product (maybe 1/4 from memory) was still Leuckart MDMA.

My guess, is that because your source was still obtaining from Asia they still could of been getting the Leuckart MD, at least the chances are higher than EU imports around the same time.

That said, I do believe tolerance likely has something to do with it too.  I personally start to notice a tolerance if I use anymore than 6-7 times a year on average.  Thankfully I’ve been very cognizant of it and soon as I feel it I take a good long break.

Just keep an eye on those reagent reactions folks.  Remember with the 90’s Leuckart MDMA, the Marquis reagent would go a black/cobalt blue.

One more thing about that too... I was looking at 5-MAPB reagent reactions and also noticed that on EData some of them went dark purple and some went w bluish black on the Marquis.

5-MAPB is also a drug with highly varied responses.  I’m wondering if synthesis routes are to blame.. I know I got one batch that even after proper purification wasn’t as good as another.

I’ll look into that more...

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem I never got to work with Dancesafe as much as I wanted, unfortunately. I had the test kits and I tested for everyone I knew, and would take the kits to parties etc. I remember going to a meeting and getting to chat with Emanuel Sferios, and I felt like I had met Jesus. He was very charismatic. Shortly after I volunteered though, the Rave Act went through and it all fell apart in my area. 

I was just reading in one of these reports that Leuckart continued to be used overseas long after it had ceased being popular in America. Based on everything you have said about the effects profiles, it seems the most like what I recall.

In 2019, I used MDMA 4 times, and in 2018 4 times as well. Same in 2017. It has been 20 years overall though, so I am sure some tolerance issues are at play. To be fair, I feel a lot of life differently than I did at 19. My hormones have changed. I have changed. Some variation is expected. 

But just thinking about everything I have tried since participating in this thread...they have all been different. The variation is fascinating, especially when the lab just says "MDMA."


----------



## indigoaura

After browsing through those articles I posted, I had this realization.

These testing companies are absolutely leaving out information in their results. I know that has been obvious for awhile, but it really struck me just now.

These research studies reference synthesis byproducts being found in almost every sample. You hardly ever see the synthesis byproducts listed in the testing results. There is no way that all of the MDMA samples on ecstasydata were free of synthesis byproducts. 

What we know as fact from published research:

1. Different synthesis methods produce different impurities and/or byproducts.

2. Some of these impurities "inhibited release induced by MDMA, and the concentration dependence of this effect correlated with their uptake inhibitory potency at the various transporters" (https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/s0893-133x(99)00148-7).

3. MDMA's psychoactive effects are altered due to certain transporter inhibiting drugs (https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/s0893-133x(99)00148-7)

4. Labs are not reporting the presence of synthesis impurities, but research shows they are present in almost every sample.

Seems reasonable to conclude that synthesis byproducts could be altering the absorption and uptake of MDMA. This isn't even getting into the isomers that have been noted in other published literature. Really, seems like there could be more than one issue going on here, resulting in variations of "meh" experiences.


----------



## AutoTripper

Hey guys and girls. Ive a number of above posts to catch up on. Just dropping in here quickly while my witts are holding up (debatably)...

Firstly, it has been a real privilege and pleasure to feel so accepted here in this community and engage with so many brilliant and open minded people with such vast experience to share. So a massive thank you to all of you as indidvduals and a community for making me feel so accepted and well receieved.



That aside- very quick comment- I just randomly looked on ecstasy data.org and what struck me was the appearance of MDA in numerous of the analysis near the top of the page. It just stood out to me as being a little bit more common than usual.

So there may be a little more MDA creeping back into some of the pill batches currently affecting the experience and appraisal of those ba6ches.


----------



## Negi

babooon87 said:


> I have not used reagents in a few years as I almost exlusively take RC drugs from legal vendors which have always been legit.



Unfortunately trusting RC vendors has been shown to be very dangerous. Just three months ago a Canadian vendor sent out a very nasty cocktail of RC benzos as 3-FPM.
Within Canada there is now a completely free, anonymous mail in testing service, that will even show quantitative results: https://getyourdrugstested.com/how-to-test-by-mail/
I would strongly recommend that everyone use it.

On the topic of this thread, looking at the results they post online it's interesting to see how much of the MDMA (in Vancouver at least) is cut anywhere from 20-70%, usually with mannitol.


----------



## Last-Don-Pablo

I can assure u that it's not tolerance. that's like saying if u win the lottery tomorrow that your reaction would be...."oh .....cool I guess? " And giving excuse that u are not excited because you have built tolerance to happiness. see it sounds ridiculous 

  I rolled with my gf a half-dozen times between 2003 and 2005. And it was phenomenal every time. And this was couple years after my monthly party days. So tolerance goes away eventually. obviously u can't roll hard if u deplete ur serotonin. 

The modern stuff seems like u can do it frequently without that powerful feeling or comedown. 
the genuine e experience I wouldn't want to do it again for at least 14 days during peak season. And during school once a month was plenty. 

I did some modern molly recently and I noticed while checking in to a hotel that I could be a Dick! The Hindu broad was taking forever and I had places to be. The early next day I wanted to apologize but her shift was done. I wasn't trying to be a dick just really impatient. And I am known as a very nice person in general.
 I didn't think anything of it but I noticed it again on NYE. Like I'm in my own little world. And I have to remind myself that I am being mean. 

Remember that non traditional therapy lady who would do E sessions with couples?  Is that still around?


----------



## Last-Don-Pablo

oh my reason for saying it's not tolerance is because I have been wanting one of my closest friends who knows nothing about how it used to be, I want them to experience it. because I was really affected positively by my experience. Anyway so we both take same amounts of modern molly and I keep saying that we are not experiencing the real thing.  yes we get short boost and have energy, but no lovey dovey feeling and opening of the 3rd eye. I described it to them like serotonin is a bucket of water and MDMA should dump most of it on our brains. but we are only  experiencing a few drops. still fun but nothing close to "rolling face!" 

therefore if tolerance was the reason then newbies would be able to roll on so called molly. And yes I do have a tester. I even have a tester in glass vial I ordered back in 2001. marquis tester. 

the illuminati probably hoarded all of the pure liquid E


----------



## indigoaura

@Last-Don-Pablo Believe me, most of the people in this thread are not locked into a "tolerance" explanation. We have noticed the same things you have: that new users do not roll; that old users roll fine on some products and not on others; that come-downs on the "meh" product are different or non-existent. It seems like a different compound. We have all noticed that.

However, I also want to be open minded. I have tried many different products since I started participating in this thread years ago. None of them have been like the stuff I had in the 00s. I am willing to consider the possibility that the problem is something with me. However, I am also willing to consider that the problem is the product. 

I agree with almost all of your observations, and have stated the same things previously. I have also noticed that on the "meh" product I get very agitated and can be mean. I was at my favorite band's performance on the front row, and all I could do was feel pissed at a guy next to me who was being loud. I could have fought him, I was so mad. This was on 200 mg of the "meh" product. 

I have also observed at least two people who had never done MDMA on the "meh" product. They were unimpressed and obviously not "rolling face" as you said. One of them actually shrugged her shoulders and said it was "ok." The other girl talked about a lot of negative and depressing topics. Compared to new users I watched in the early 00s...totally different. There used to be physically observable phenomenon: dilated eyes, askew jaw, wide eyes, eyes rolling back, rubbing/touching self/others. I did not see any of that with these newbies. However, I did attend an event and saw those behaviors from some people in the audience, so it seems that the product I am familiar with is out there for a minority of individuals. 

In any case...

I made a post awhile back that summarized our top theories. However, it is super hard to find posts in this 177 page thread. So, I will summarize again.

Current working thesis statement: *Variations in MDMA synthesis methods result in variations of product due to either a) presence of active impurities or b) substitution of structurally similar compounds.*

There are multiple published research articles that indicate that synthesis methods result in different impurities. There is also a published research article that shows that some seized product that appears to be MDMA is actually a different but structurally similar compound that fools GCMS testing. There is also published research that shows that at least some impurities interfere with the effects of MDMA.

We have a few efforts underway to try to prove any of this. I have been in communication with DrugsData (formerly ecstasydata), and they are looking into the "structurally similar" compound theory. @vash445 is also running some tests with the help of someone he knows. We are hoping to come to some concrete conclusions.


----------



## babooon87

Negi said:


> Unfortunately trusting RC vendors has been shown to be very dangerous. Just three months ago a Canadian vendor sent out a very nasty cocktail of RC benzos as 3-FPM.
> Within Canada there is now a completely free, anonymous mail in testing service, that will even show quantitative results: https://getyourdrugstested.com/how-to-test-by-mail/
> I would strongly recommend that everyone use it.
> 
> On the topic of this thread, looking at the results they post online it's interesting to see how much of the MDMA (in Vancouver at least) is cut anywhere from 20-70%, usually with mannitol.


Yes, I have heard of this type of pratice I guess I have just been lucky so far. I still find this kind of scam is way less widespread than with street drugs. I did receive weak batches of rc products but never anything that felt like a cocktail of random drugs. Thanks for the mail testing ressource, I did not know about this one.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^I kinda agree with you, but for me after the whole bromo-dragonfly sold in place of 2ce fiasco I will from now on always test RCs.

While your more likely to get an adulterated substance on the street, I’d argue the risks are much higher if you wind up unlucky and get sold the wrong RC.

It doesn’t even have to be an evil intent by the vendor, it’s not uncommon for the wrong RC to get mislabeled and sent.  Many vendors have high potency drugs as well on their inventory lists, street dealers usually do not.  One batch of Nbome insteD of 2ce/I/b/p could be deadly.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

To anyone interested, I have had little to no comedown. Actually felt great today. I was rocking out in my car and losing track of the speed limit. :D Yesterday, I had a bit of indigestion, but nothing too bad.


----------



## ShooShoo

Is it possible to find MagicDMA on darknet markets at all?


----------



## Hilopsilo

ShooShoo said:


> Is it possible to find MagicDMA on darknet markets at all?



I imagine so, yes. Might just take some inspecting of the reviews, pictures, notoriety of the vendor, whatever info is available through the vendor's profile/listings; all you can really do is make an educated guess.

Could be partly superstition, but I've mentioned before I'd just steer clear of listings for the really inexpensive "Dutch" 82% MDMA, which make up the vast majority of listings. Look for the ones that just aren't that, and you'll notice it often looks different, not dutch origin, often domestic, much more info in the description, marginally more expensive, often more responsive/knowledgeable about what they've got,  etc. Searching for "Washed MDMA" might get you going in the right direction, shows they know what they're doing and actually care (?) about what they're selling to people. Regardless of whether you buy into any of our half baked theories, I think you'll likely get a higher quality product anyways from such listings for not much increased cost.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

ShooShoo said:


> Is it possible to find MagicDMA on darknet markets at all?



It's certainly possible, but has proven to be very difficult.
If you look around the markets enough you'll see that there are a few vendors out there selling product that may have potential.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Hilopsilo said:


> Could be partly superstition, but I've mentioned before I'd just steer clear of listings for the really inexpensive "Dutch" 82% MDMA, which make up the vast majority of listings. Look for the ones that just aren't that, and you'll notice it often looks different, not dutch origin, often domestic, much more info in the description, marginally more expensive, often more responsive/knowledgeable about what they've got,  etc. Searching for "Washed MDMA" might get you going in the right direction, shows they know what they're doing and actually care (?) about what they're selling to people. Regardless of whether you buy into any of our half baked theories, I think you'll likely get a higher quality product anyways from such listings for not much increased cost.



I guess this is a function of where you buy from, but in the uk almost all the listings mention Dutch.  The one or two that don't, also don't say anything to give confidence.  I've tried avoiding the dutch claims but still everything is meh.

Ideally, people in the know would put feedback on the vendors pages or on the forums saying if a batch was magic.  But that doesn't seem to be the case and, although I've seen discussion of mdma turning bad on the DN forums, there doesn't appear to be any awareness of this thread (so the same old excuses keep coming out).  I presume discussion of actual vendors is not ok here.  It would be nice to have somewhere where magic batches can be reported on.

Some have recommended to qdance pills.  I still don't get how they can be upwards of 250mg and magic so I'm skeptical.


----------



## indigoaura

I take back everything I said about the comedown. I had a rough day yesterday!!! It was a traditional blue "Tuesday." Kinda feel relieved though, since that is what old product used to do to me.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> I take back everything I said about the comedown. I had a rough day yesterday!!! It was a traditional blue "Tuesday." Kinda feel relieved though, since that is what old product used to do to me.



That's only because you're not mitigating it with enough alcohol...


----------



## mooka

There's this forum here: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/ which is a chemistry forum, not a la thehive, it is a legit chemistry discussion forum but with some very open minded and knowledgeable souls. 
I guess that we may get some interesting feedbacks from them specially when the discussion isn't focused on the best synth but rather what could go wrong and why (in this case, the Meh product).
If any of you guys would like to prepare a post with the proper questions asked I'll be happy to post it there...


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> I take back everything I said about the comedown. I had a rough day yesterday!!! It was a traditional blue "Tuesday." Kinda feel relieved though, since that is what old product used to do to me.


It is actually a good sign. I have only ever had suicide tuesday from MagicDMA. Mehdma ime produces zero after-effects other than a physical comedown immediately after and nothing in the following days.


----------



## indigoaura

@mooka I am not the most science oriented person in this thread, but I am a decent writer. I will attempt to write up a query for your forum. Thanks!


----------



## mooka

indigoaura said:


> @mooka I am not the most science oriented person in this thread, but I am a decent writer. I will attempt to write up a query for your forum. Thanks!


That would be great thanks


----------



## ShooShoo

I'm pretty sure my first ever pill was a magic one. It was red but I don't remember the press, 8 years ago exactly. I've never felt so much pure love and empathy than that night. Spilling my heart out to my friends. Every touch felt absolutely amazing. We had glowstick liquid on the walls and looking at it was so trippy. I remember dancing with this girl I was mad about after the party with a strobe and it was just so incredible. Haven't felt anything close to this anytime since that.
I hope I find a pill that good again in the future. I remember the comedown the next few days and going for a walk in the city, it was so melancholic but kind of beautiful.
My last was a heineken and it was so meh, no rush, extremely mild euphoria, no comedown.
Take me back to the old days


----------



## nznity

I've been rolling since 2012,Ive tried everything from reg old school round pills, speedy pills, meh pills, magic white MDMA, garbage powder, Dutch molly, meh mdma, etc. IMO there's still good Stuff out there. My last roll was a month ago and I was super rolled on just 100mg, I don't think tolerance is much of an issue if you don't take it too often/save it for special occasions. If you ask me would we have an answer to this question one day? I think so we just need to legalize mdma first, until that day arrives we will just have to be pleased we've had all kinds of experiences and lived to the fullest.  NZN


----------



## v5zS56tvk

ThreePointCircle said:


> I guess this is a function of where you buy from, but in the uk almost all the listings mention Dutch.  The one or two that don't, also don't say anything to give confidence.  I've tried avoiding the dutch claims but still everything is meh.
> 
> Ideally, people in the know would put feedback on the vendors pages or on the forums saying if a batch was magic.  But that doesn't seem to be the case and, although I've seen discussion of mdma turning bad on the DN forums, there doesn't appear to be any awareness of this thread (so the same old excuses keep coming out).  I presume discussion of actual vendors is not ok here.  It would be nice to have somewhere where magic batches can be reported on.
> 
> Some have recommended to qdance pills.  I still don't get how they can be upwards of 250mg and magic so I'm skeptical.


A thread was started recently asking if anyone has found MagicDMA on darknet avengers the other day. No real responses yet. I've been eyeing some listings that advertise a full wash and recrystalization, but from what I've read here, that wouldn't actually remove the impurities that may be affecting the roll of an inferior product. Hopefully we can get some better reviews on the dnm forums. The only place were there seem to be some good discussion of product is on dn avengers, specially lots of discussion on cola. Not much chatter on the hub, dread, or envoy, unfortunately.

We shouldn't pay too close of attention to vendor reviews on the actual markets. Those should just be confirmation that a vendor is shipping the product successfully with proper stealth and not actually scamming people. The real product reviews should be on the forums, IMO.


----------



## psy997

The good stuff I had last week was apparently from the darknet.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

psy997 said:


> The good stuff I had last week was apparently from the darknet.



How good was good?  Was it night and day different to the meh? (fingers crossed that is was so I can still hope lol)


----------



## opposable-thumbs

Shortly I'll have access to some of the "snow white, acetone washed, recrystallized" DN-sourced MDMA mentioned earlier in the thread.

I'll report back when I get a chance to try it.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

v5zS56tvk said:


> A thread was started recently asking if anyone has found MagicDMA on darknet avengers the other day. No real responses yet. I've been eyeing some listings that advertise a full wash and recrystalization, but from what I've read here, that wouldn't actually remove the impurities that may be affecting the roll of an inferior product. Hopefully we can get some better reviews on the dnm forums. The only place were there seem to be some good discussion of product is on dn avengers, specially lots of discussion on cola. Not much chatter on the hub, dread, or envoy, unfortunately.
> 
> We shouldn't pay too close of attention to vendor reviews on the actual markets. Those should just be confirmation that a vendor is shipping the product successfully with proper stealth and not actually scamming people. The real product reviews should be on the forums, IMO.



Ah ok, I'll take a look on dn avengers.  @vecktor gave a detailed rundown on how recrystallisation could work here, but it's a lot more of a complicated procedure than people normally talk about on here (if its going to be effective)


----------



## indigoaura

@opposable-thumbs Sounds like we might have the same thing, and I would love to see notes from someone who can help to unravel whether I have tolerance issues or just really bad luck with products, LOL.


----------



## psy997

ThreePointCircle said:


> How good was good?  Was it night and day different to the meh? (fingers crossed that is was so I can still hope lol)



It was pretty night and day. Not the best I've ever had, but an 8.5/10?


----------



## G_Chem

So I gotta be quick but was scanning MDMA reddit when I found this picture of “Canadian MDMA.”



			https://i.redd.it/mnwvta0x13941.jpg
		


Notice how jagged the crystals are compared to blockiness of the last picture I shared, I’ve found product like this to be very good.

-GC


----------



## babooon87

G_Chem said:


> So I gotta be quick but was scanning MDMA reddit when I found this picture of “Canadian MDMA.”
> 
> 
> 
> https://i.redd.it/mnwvta0x13941.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how jagged the crystals are compared to blockiness of the last picture I shared, I’ve found product like this to be very good.
> 
> -GC


The magic crystals I had on cristmas had that look and were very hard to break. I live in Canada.


----------



## indigoaura

Looks like rock sugar candy...lol


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> Looks like rock sugar candy...lol


It sure doesn't taste like it hahaha.


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> So I gotta be quick but was scanning MDMA reddit when I found this picture of “Canadian MDMA.”
> 
> 
> 
> https://i.redd.it/mnwvta0x13941.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how jagged the crystals are compared to blockiness of the last picture I shared, I’ve found product like this to be very good.
> 
> -GC


That would make logocal sense. Jaggedness would be more representative of untampered, rather than neatly reconstructed rocks of art.

Nice and "Rustic."

Unless they are like the dumbass supermarkets and they think people only want to buy neat, uniform, identical sized fruits and veg, snipping off the edges for photo shots lol.

I can actually see it! Not disputing what you are saying though at all.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

FWIW I reached out to the guy who posted the "Canadian MDMA" on reddit to ask if he'd be willing to share the name of the market/vendor if it was a DN purchase.
He said it wasn't from the DN.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea I never buy from the DN either...

I get the impression stuff like that ain’t easy to find via DN.

-GC


----------



## SunriseChampion

That pic of "Canadian MDMA" made me sort of antsy....I'm still waiting for the suspected magic M I posted about over a month ago. The cook was done mid-December, still waiting for my bit. 
We may have some decent cooks over here.

I gotta message these guys to hurry up and send it already. 

They don't sell on DN. 

I was hoping for a Christmas present but still waiting because I'm getting it "second hand".


----------



## babooon87

I


SunriseChampion said:


> That pic of "Canadian MDMA" made me sort of antsy....I'm still waiting for the suspected magic M I posted about over a month ago. The cook was done mid-December, still waiting for my bit.
> We may have some decent cooks over here.
> 
> I gotta message these guys to hurry up and send it already.
> 
> They don't sell on DN.
> 
> I was hoping for a Christmas present but still waiting because I'm getting it "second hand".


Just hope that the " first hand " hasn't been too greedy hahaha.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Did the effects of so called ‘magic’ MDMA vary wildly be ROA back in the day?

I have tried plugging, shooting and parachuting crystalline ‘champagne’ MDMA over the last few months and found each ROA to be like to a completely different drug. 

The closest to rolling like a 90s quality pill was plugging - though with very much faster come-up.


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> Looks like rock sugar candy...lol


have you got the file from IEC yet? 
That MDMA looks like it has been crystalised from an alcohol and broken up possibly after pressing.  Physical form like colour is pretty meaningless.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

Yeah, extremely rare, if not impossible, to find MDMA that looks like that on the DN. I’ve been buying exclusively from markets for the past 3 years and have never come across any.

Others may have had better luck than me though.


----------



## indigoaura

@Atelier3 I have been considering plugging. Do you use the same dose as the oral dose, or do you use less? Do you dissolve in water and use a syringe? That is what I did with 2CC. Plugging 2CC felt more like 00s MDMA than any of the MDMA I have done since 2005, but it was a short ride.


----------



## SunriseChampion

babooon87 said:


> I
> 
> Just hope that the " first hand " hasn't been too greedy hahaha.



Shouldn't be an issue according to my source. Let's just say we know the sous-chef. Then again, who knows....last I touched this stuff was over a year ago and I didn't get to send it for testing so it could be nonsense.
I sent a message requesting again my amount today. Hopefully soon I can send it for testing.


----------



## Jabberwocky

indigoaura said:


> @Atelier3 I have been considering plugging. Do you use the same dose as the oral dose, or do you use less? Do you dissolve in water and use a syringe? That is what I did with 2CC. Plugging 2CC felt more like 00s MDMA than any of the MDMA I have done since 2005, but it was a short ride.



Hi @indigoaura - yes I used exactly the same dose in all 3 ROA - which was 1 mg per kilo plus 50. In retrospect this was possibly too big a dose for IV (which I would never do again anyway) but spot on for plugging in my case. It worked out to be 150 mg cause I’m a reasonably big guy.

I dissolved 150 mg crstaline MDMA (tested) in about 4 ml of slightly warm water and put it in a 10 ml syringe. After a quick internal enema style rinse I plugged it laying on my side with the syringe fully inserted to the finger grips. One rapid push on the plunger. I left syringer inserted for about 10 mins while laying on side. After less than 20 mins I was off and away with incredible roll - at least as good as best 90s pills I ever had.

I momentarily had a negative side effect of feeling I could not swallow but it passed quickly.


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> So I gotta be quick but was scanning MDMA reddit when I found this picture of “Canadian MDMA.”
> 
> 
> 
> https://i.redd.it/mnwvta0x13941.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how jagged the crystals are compared to blockiness of the last picture I shared, I’ve found product like this to be very good.
> 
> -GC




I def remember some MDA that looked like that. was pure fire for sure...


----------



## G_Chem

^^Funny you say that.  I was going to mention that the only time I’ve ever seen product of this purity off the DN, it was 2013 I believe and it was MDA.  I also just finished it off on my last experience :/ (worth it though without a doubt).  That year I saw a lot of high purity MDA and DMT.

This summer I will be on the hunt for some more crystal clear MDA.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> So I gotta be quick but was scanning MDMA reddit when I found this picture of “Canadian MDMA.”
> 
> 
> 
> https://i.redd.it/mnwvta0x13941.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how jagged the crystals are compared to blockiness of the last picture I shared, I’ve found product like this to be very good.
> 
> -GC



Looks very much like the stuff I was raving about on page 117.

That was DN sourced


----------



## ShooShoo

Would the stuff given in mdma therapy be magic?


----------



## babooon87

ShooShoo said:


> Would the stuff given in mdma therapy be magic?


Without a single doubt with the very high success rate they are having. I don't see MehDMA having any therapeutic value whatsoever.


----------



## ShooShoo

Can MDA on its own be described as having magic qualities? And if so has this been continuous?


----------



## G_Chem

^^^IMO yes MDA can be magic or meh, and in fact I wrote up a thread on it a long time ago (like 8yrs ago) on DF, it’s called like “Variations in batches of MDA” or something like that.

Back then I was just starting to get a grasp MDxx batch variation, and I made the argument that it was isomers by comparing experience reports to the different isomers.  I still think it could be...

But it does appear that certain batches have a magic quality that others don’t..  That said it also seems that MDA is only available in areas where magic MDMA is accessible, leading me to believe the synthesis routes for magic MDMA and MDA are similar.

High quality crystals clear MDA like the picture I showed is an amazing substance, that when I have friends and family try it they don’t believe it’s even MDA mixed in with their dose.  It’s highly euphoric and empathogenic, very chatting and lovey.

Impure shit sass/MDA is sedating/mongy, bland and boring, little to no euphoria sometimes even dysphoric, visuals/trippy aspect is different too.  Overall a waste of good precursor IMO.

The stuff I just finished off was crystal clear with beautiful formed shards, but if you broke open a shard or bit into one you’d get that taste/smell of safrole.

That’s something I notice with all the good product, even stuff that looks insanely pure with very nice clear crystals, upon breaking open the crystal or biting into it at least the faintest hint of safrole is detected.

Safrole is very potent smelling/tasting even at minuscule amounts, I’ve had a single drop ruin an entire batch of hash oil many years ago when I played with various oils, my guess is that even if safrole was there in .1% amounts it’d still be detected by the human nose and taste.

I’ll be sure to continue to watch for that though.  Up until the past 5yrs I couldn’t really detect safrole in any of the product I was taking but my nose was also destroyed for awhile from other drug abuse.  I was eating stuff then that people were saying smelled sassy, so I’m sure some people can’t detect it even in appreciable amounts.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

mooka said:


> There's this forum here: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/ which is a chemistry forum, not a la thehive, it is a legit chemistry discussion forum but with some very open minded and knowledgeable souls.
> I guess that we may get some interesting feedbacks from them specially when the discussion isn't focused on the best synth but rather what could go wrong and why (in this case, the Meh product).
> If any of you guys would like to prepare a post with the proper questions asked I'll be happy to post it there...



@mooka Maybe post something like this:



> Hello Science Madness,
> 
> I have been in discussion with an international collaboration of individuals who have noticed significant variation between MDMA batches that have all tested as MDMA through GCMS lab analysis. These variations have been confirmed by multiple people and under a wide variety of circumstances. Variation includes lack of traditionally observable physical phenomena such as mydriasis, as well as a lack of traditional sensory enhancement and euphoria. Before you assume the answer is user tolerance, please note that the variation has also been noted in "virgin" users of MDMA. To simplify our discussion of this phenomena we have been calling traditional product with typical results "magic" and non-traditional product with muted results "meh."
> 
> Our own research has revealed a few possibilities for what may be occurring, but we would like to get some more scientific feedback.
> 
> Here are some of the research articles that we read while considering this issue:
> 
> This research article seems to indicate that there are structurally similar compounds that could masquerade as MDMA to GCMS testing: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER_45.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
> 
> This article shows that some synthesis byproducts could have an impact on transporters and also on the effect of MDMA: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426
> 
> These articles discuss variations in synthesis methods, and how those variations produce different byproducts:
> 1.
> 
> 
> Sci-Hub | A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine. Forensic Science International, 224(1-3), 8–26 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040
> 
> 
> 2.
> 
> 
> Sci-Hub | Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities. Forensic Science International, 152(2-3), 175–184 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003
> 
> 
> 3.
> 
> 
> https://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/palladium/pdf/Basic%20and%20neutral%20route%20specific%20impurities%20in%20MDMA%20prepared%20by%20different%20synthesis%20methods%20Comparison%20of%20impurity%20profiles.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Currently, it seems to us that variations in MDMA synthesis methods result in variations of product due to either a) presence of active impurities or b) substitution of structurally similar compounds. Is this probable? Would synthesis techniques result in enough product variation to alter the end user experience in a significant way? If so, since GCMS testing does not appear to be detecting what is occurring, any ideas for how to identify these impurities? Also, any theories on what these impurities could be (specifically)?
> 
> Thanks for your help!



Feel free to revise and edit as necessary.


----------



## Chonciceptor

Hi everyone, so it’s been just over a year since my wife and I last used meh-mdma sourced from the DN. I said screw it and decided I would try buying pressed pills and see if there would be any difference, checkpoint orange Tesla’s, supposedly legit, have glitter and glow under blacklight. Will be sending them off to be tested in the near future and when we finally decide to take them I will write up a roll report!


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem Does this look like the "right" kind of crystal? It has more of that blocky, rocky look than the jagged ones you posted.


----------



## indigoaura

Chonciceptor said:


> Hi everyone, so it’s been just over a year since my wife and I last used meh-mdma sourced from the DN. I said screw it and decided I would try buying pressed pills and see if there would be any difference, checkpoint orange Tesla’s, supposedly legit, have glitter and glow under blacklight. Will be sending them off to be tested in the near future and when we finally decide to take them I will write up a roll report!



Hope it works for you! Let us know how it goes!


----------



## MountainTrails

babooon87 said:


> Without a single doubt with the very high success rate they are having. I don't see MehDMA having any therapeutic value whatsoever.



I'm not sure I agree that the therapeutic success rate alone transfers into confidence about the "magic," and that's based on personal experience that I'm starting to talk about in the Psychedelic Medicine->autism thread. I'm hoping for more people and therefore more data. (I have no interest in splitting this focused conversation -- which is one I've been really enjoying -- but am interested in atypical experience with substances within the autistic community, and the swirl of conversation/topics around that.)

But anyway, I get no sense of well-being, euphoria, however you name it.  It's *all* been MehDMA for me from that measure.

But, I have no doubt -- none -- it's been effective in opening me up emotionally in some as-yet-unclear way.  I also noticed I seemed to have a greater interest in social communication, or lowered skepticism maybe.  That was before I read the papers on that.  I've observed that for some period of time after MDMA, I seem to go at communication with noticeably increased energy/interest, and then over a period of time as shit happens and disappointments occur, I sag slowly back into ... disinterest.

tl;dr:  I seem to get at least some of the reported therapeutic benefit of MDMA from tested product that provides me no happy-head.


----------



## indigoaura

@MountainTrails I am in the process of reading that thread now. Lots of good information there. 

Have you been sourcing the MDMA yourself, or have you been getting it through research studies/therapy?

Interesting to ponder whether the effects of MDMA on autistic individuals would be the same or different from neurotypical individuals. Do you know anyone else with autism who has experienced well-being or euphoria from MDMA?


----------



## indigoaura

Wanted to also get everyone's feedback on this oddity. So, I rolled on December 31. Felt fine for about 3 days, then had a typical emotional dip on days 4 and 5. On day 6 and 7 however, I had an extremely elevated mood and afterglow to such an extent that I even experienced enhanced hearing and appreciation of music. There is an effect I used to get on MDMA where I can hear more detail and musical separation than normal. I am not sure I hear music normally, honestly. I miss what is going on in the background. However, on MDMA, I can hear the background instruments and texture of the music (if it is good product). I had this same effect on days 6 and 7 after the roll, and then abruptly on day 8, it went away along with the elevated mood & I normalized. What do all of you make of that?


----------



## MountainTrails

indigoaura said:


> @MountainTrails I am in the process of reading that thread now. Lots of good information there.
> 
> Have you been sourcing the MDMA yourself, or have you been getting it through research studies/therapy?
> 
> Interesting to ponder whether the effects of MDMA on autistic individuals would be the same or different from neurotypical individuals. Do you know anyone else with autism who has experienced well-being or euphoria from MDMA?



Sourced via DW.  Multiple vendors and forms.

I'm seeing mixed reports:  autists in both categories (with and without euphoria).   But the data is so, so limited.  I  had contacted someone with a role in the MAPS/autism work asking about any plans to release further reports/information about the study, but never heard back.


----------



## SunriseChampion

indigoaura said:


> Wanted to also get everyone's feedback on this oddity. So, I rolled on December 31. Felt fine for about 3 days, then had a typical emotional dip on days 4 and 5. On day 6 and 7 however, I had an extremely elevated mood and afterglow to such an extent that I even experienced enhanced hearing and appreciation of music. There is an effect I used to get on MDMA where I can hear more detail and musical separation than normal. I am not sure I hear music normally, honestly. I miss what is going on in the background. However, on MDMA, I can hear the background instruments and texture of the music (if it is good product). I had this same effect on days 6 and 7 after the roll, and then abruptly on day 8, it went away along with the elevated mood & I normalized. What do all of you make of that?



I normally get a nice afterglow for about a week or so after the good stuff, but never have experienced negative aftereffects.

Maybe it was some sort of rebound effect after the negative effects of days 4 and 5?


----------



## indigoaura

@MountainTrails One explanation is some people get magic product and some people get meh product, and that is why not everyone gets the euphoria. I have not found anything particularly mind-blowing on the DW. Interesting that you have found positive therapeutic benefit despite the lack of a typical high. What is the high itself like for you?


----------



## MountainTrails

indigoaura said:


> @MountainTrails One explanation is some people get magic product and some people get meh product, and that is why not everyone gets the euphoria. I have not found anything particularly mind-blowing on the DW. Interesting that you have found positive therapeutic benefit despite the lack of a typical high. What is the high itself like for you?



Here are some words on that.  If you have specific questions beyond what I have there, ask away.


----------



## Hilopsilo

ShooShoo said:


> Would the stuff given in mdma therapy be magic?



I'm sure it works as intended, and I'll bet its colorless and doesn't reek



G_Chem said:


> ^^^IMO yes MDA can be magic or meh, and in fact I wrote up a thread on it a long time ago (like 8yrs ago) on DF, it’s called like “Variations in batches of MDA” or something like that.
> 
> Back then I was just starting to get a grasp MDxx batch variation, and I made the argument that it was isomers by comparing experience reports to the different isomers.  I still think it could be...
> 
> But it does appear that certain batches have a magic quality that others don’t..  That said it also seems that MDA is only available in areas where magic MDMA is accessible, leading me to believe the synthesis routes for magic MDMA and MDA are similar.
> 
> High quality crystals clear MDA like the picture I showed is an amazing substance, that when I have friends and family try it they don’t believe it’s even MDA mixed in with their dose.  It’s highly euphoric and empathogenic, very chatting and lovey.
> 
> Impure shit sass/MDA is sedating/mongy, bland and boring, little to no euphoria sometimes even dysphoric, visuals/trippy aspect is different too.  Overall a waste of good precursor IMO.
> 
> The stuff I just finished off was crystal clear with beautiful formed shards, but if you broke open a shard or bit into one you’d get that taste/smell of safrole.
> 
> That’s something I notice with all the good product, even stuff that looks insanely pure with very nice clear crystals, upon breaking open the crystal or biting into it at least the faintest hint of safrole is detected.
> 
> Safrole is very potent smelling/tasting even at minuscule amounts, I’ve had a single drop ruin an entire batch of hash oil many years ago when I played with various oils, my guess is that even if safrole was there in .1% amounts it’d still be detected by the human nose and taste.
> 
> I’ll be sure to continue to watch for that though.  Up until the past 5yrs I couldn’t really detect safrole in any of the product I was taking but my nose was also destroyed for awhile from other drug abuse.  I was eating stuff then that people were saying smelled sassy, so I’m sure some people can’t detect it even in appreciable amounts.
> 
> -GC



The MDA that blew my mind was, like the picture indigo has posted below, clear colorless crystal. MDA seems to vary just like MDMA in appearance, lots of "sass" thats smelly and colorful like MDMA but I've never tried that before



indigoaura said:


> View attachment 20437
> 
> @G_Chem Does this look like the "right" kind of crystal? It has more of that blocky, rocky look than the jagged ones you posted.



As far as looks go, if that tested as MDMA, with even just reagents I'd be  bet its really good


----------



## indigoaura

@MountainTrails I really appreciate the precision with which you present your experience. My initial, gut reaction is that you have never had magic MDMA, although your experiences sound pleasant enough. The overall lack of mydriasis is a giveaway, IMO, that something is not right with your product. Not surprising to me, as the majority of product available on the DW seems to be "meh." Also, the lack of tactile enhancement seems significant as well. Tactile enhancement was a cornerstone of quality product in the early 00s. Good MDMA is more than eye jitters and enhanced lights, although a lot of the meh product I have had has seemed like it just turned up the "symptoms" without providing the heart of the experience. Since your first use did not occur until this "meh" problem was quite widespread, you may just not be finding the right product.


----------



## babooon87

This is what it should look like.


----------



## indigoaura

Like that dude?


----------



## mooka

@indigoaura 
posted! let's see if we get some feedback.
thanks for your time 
link: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=154716


----------



## indigoaura

Hi @mooka, I am looking at the replies now. You may want to also emphasize that the "meh" product seems to produce sickness later on, and it may be dangerous and with unknown long term effects. Users are seeing the MDMA result from testing companies and assuming everything is ok, but something is not normal. Also, point out that some testing companies provide percentages of strength and that even 85% MDMA with no other detected compounds is producing the meh results, and that taking more to compensate does not seem to make a difference.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Wanted to also get everyone's feedback on this oddity. So, I rolled on December 31. Felt fine for about 3 days, then had a typical emotional dip on days 4 and 5. On day 6 and 7 however, I had an extremely elevated mood and afterglow to such an extent that I even experienced enhanced hearing and appreciation of music. There is an effect I used to get on MDMA where I can hear more detail and musical separation than normal. I am not sure I hear music normally, honestly. I miss what is going on in the background. However, on MDMA, I can hear the background instruments and texture of the music (if it is good product). I had this same effect on days 6 and 7 after the roll, and then abruptly on day 8, it went away along with the elevated mood & I normalized. What do all of you make of that?


Actually, this sounds entirely normal and feasible to my mind and this is actually what I would expect people to report after legitimate MDMA experiences with things equalising and leveling out with a dip after the initial uplifting afterglow which then swings back the other way once that dip clears, then a pick up again because essentially the experience is intended to be healing and motivational and uplifting and inspirational so these aspects are not lost or deleted by the negative bit and have been taken on board and processed and assimilated by your conscious and subconscious mind and emotional outlook.

I experience a similar thing with LSD. Depending on overall dosage and intensity and longevity of effects because I do go a bit overboard, I will either have a very positive Afterglow the following days or I can have several days of kind of emotional malaise and insecurity and a feeling that I am not in full control of my thoughts and feelings almost feeling a bit sorry for myself.

Then after another day or so this emotional lull swings back the other way and I will experience a much uplifted and cleared and refreshed positive outlook and feeling.

Which is essentially the positive outcome of the tripping experience as my my conscious and unconscious mind have been assimilating and processing the introspection and insight gained and the lessons to be learned.

Very different to MDMA of course which it was a very long time ago for me as you will know but similar principles I feel to do with the mind and emotion and conscious and subconscious processing.

Although with MDMA it's much more physical and biochemical of course.
But what you describe experiencing sounds to me much more right and what I would expect people to experience in general, not necessarily in the same order and duration and timing etc.

I hope that makes a little sense anyway my mental faculties are down the drain currently with winter illnesses and generally very poorly condition not helped by mass over consumption of psychoactive substances just of late particularly Acid and Kava.

Just trying to recover and and rebuild some strength now the winters always hit me really hard at this exact time every year and probably not the best plan to have gone on an over-the-top bender on every psychoactive substance I could just about tolerate for a prolonged period of 8 or 9 weeks.


----------



## G_Chem

I just wanted to pop in to say that product @indigoaura looks pretty good IMO.

For me personally, the week after a roll is usually a time where I feel “renewed/cleansed” and often a moment to start new tasks or projects.  Nothing gives me that effect like MDMA (even other empathogens) and it’s one of the main reasons I use it.  I can vary between euphoria and a sense of calm.  Music can vary between sounding really good still or bland depending on what I did during the roll.  (For instance spending a night or two on MDMA perfectly placed in front of an F1 or Henny rig will make any music after that seem like garbage in comparison.)

Idk man I thought more people had access to quality product but upon looking at a pic of me in a crowd of people a few days ago I look like I’m standing out like a sore thumb.  Everyone’s eyes are dropped, no ones dancing, everyone is fully clothed...  Then there’s me right in the middle, shirtless, grin ear to ear while simultaneously looking like my jaw might fall off, getting the fuck down.  I remember that day it was hot as hell and I’m literally the only shirtless person in the photo of hundreds.  True real MDMA would have a lot more people getting clothes off, I remember full blown orgies in the middle of festivals years back.

Something ain’t right..

-GC


----------



## mooka

G_Chem said:


> True real MDMA would have a lot more people getting clothes off, I remember full blown orgies in the middle of festivals years back.


true indeed


----------



## indigoaura

> True real MDMA would have a lot more people getting clothes off, I remember full blown orgies in the middle of festivals years back.



Yes. And, that was my point with sharing that anecdote awhile back of the EDM event. The people who looked like they were rolling were the minority. They had taken their shirts off. They were obviously hot. They were touching and rubbing everything. They kept running their fingers through their own hair. Their jaws were askew. Their eyes were huge. It was visibly obvious that they were rolling. All the other people standing around with their arms crossed and spaced out, grim looks on their faces did not look the part.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> Hi @mooka, I am looking at the replies now. You may want to also emphasize that the "meh" product seems to produce sickness later on, and it may be dangerous and with unknown long term effects. Users are seeing the MDMA result from testing companies and assuming everything is ok, but something is not normal. Also, point out that some testing companies provide percentages of strength and that even 85% MDMA with no other detected compounds is producing the meh results, and that taking more to compensate does not seem to make a difference.


Not just testing companies. Private parties/labs as well.. it seems to be easily missed even with very sensitive tools most labs don't use.


----------



## vash445

mooka said:


> @indigoaura
> posted! let's see if we get some feedback.
> thanks for your time
> link: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=154716


You need to say an NMR was posted and DIRECT Them here. to page 170 https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today.791073/page-170


----------



## babooon87

G_Chem said:


> I just wanted to pop in to say that product @indigoaura looks pretty good IMO.
> 
> For me personally, the week after a roll is usually a time where I feel “renewed/cleansed” and often a moment to start new tasks or projects.  Nothing gives me that effect like MDMA (even other empathogens) and it’s one of the main reasons I use it.  I can vary between euphoria and a sense of calm.  Music can vary between sounding really good still or bland depending on what I did during the roll.  (For instance spending a night or two on MDMA perfectly placed in front of an F1 or Henny rig will make any music after that seem like garbage in comparison.)
> 
> Idk man I thought more people had access to quality product but upon looking at a pic of me in a crowd of people a few days ago I look like I’m standing out like a sore thumb.  Everyone’s eyes are dropped, no ones dancing, everyone is fully clothed...  Then there’s me right in the middle, shirtless, grin ear to ear while simultaneously looking like my jaw might fall off, getting the fuck down.  I remember that day it was hot as hell and I’m literally the only shirtless person in the photo of hundreds.  True real MDMA would have a lot more people getting clothes off, I remember full blown orgies in the middle of festivals years back.
> 
> Something ain’t right..
> 
> -GC


Yeah real mdma make you hot and sweaty like crazy. Meh makes you cold and shivery.


----------



## vash445

mooka said:


> @indigoaura
> posted! let's see if we get some feedback.
> thanks for your time
> link: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=154716


I cant post. Refer them to page 170 and tell them an NMR HAS BEEN DONE. the last message was
I have gone throught the NMR, need to know was the D6 DMSO solvent used pure or out of a single use vial, at the moment it looks like the material is the correct MDMA, possibly with a small amount of something else with very similar resonances so not an isomer, the peaks are slightly the wrong size, and what looks like contamination from the NMR solvent.
I will post about this later once I have checked a few things.



https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today.791073/page-170


----------



## Specified

The stuff from the Netherlands is powerful! I had eye wobbles for about four hours lmfao couldn't text for shit


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> Yes.



I take it IEC have not sent you the .d file. Get me the data please.

IMHO
you are wasting your time with sciencemadness, they strut and talk the talk but there is almost no one there who engages brain before posting. Instead they have a collective delusion that leads to them thinking they are keepers of some gnostic knowledge which people are trying to steal. There are some on Sciencemadness who know their stuff, I am not going to name them, but the SNR is not great and has got a lot worse over time.



> S.C Wack:
> That's a pretty hot precursor for like 15 years now, maybe people have switched and are ordering something wrong or something is getting lost in translation. *I'd look for things like Shulgin's methyl-j*.



wrong side chain length and impossible to make from safrole or PMK glycidate, plus GC-MS can and does tell the difference. Different MS spectrum different fragmentation missing m/z 58 as base peak. DIfferent retention time the Kovats is hugely different.
Try again, engage brain this time.

I am willing to entertain there is something to the Meh Magic debate and it is something to do with the properties of the MDMA.

Discoveries in science do not begin with "Eureka", they begin with "That's weird, is it real?"


----------



## mooka

@vash445 
Thanks for pointing that

@vecktor 
I can feel the vibe over there, I hoped (besides the obvious biasing towards illegal substances) that some more open minded folk could add something interesting...


----------



## indigoaura

@vecktor Unfortunately, IEC has not sent me anything else. I will email them again.


----------



## MountainTrails

indigoaura said:


> @MountainTrails I really appreciate the precision with which you present your experience. My initial, gut reaction is that you have never had magic MDMA, although your experiences sound pleasant enough. The overall lack of mydriasis is a giveaway, IMO, that something is not right with your product. Not surprising to me, as the majority of product available on the DW seems to be "meh." Also, the lack of tactile enhancement seems significant as well. Tactile enhancement was a cornerstone of quality product in the early 00s. Good MDMA is more than eye jitters and enhanced lights, although a lot of the meh product I have had has seemed like it just turned up the "symptoms" without providing the heart of the experience. Since your first use did not occur until this "meh" problem was quite widespread, you may just not be finding the right product.



Thanks!

And I really appreciate the precision with which you ticked various details I'm considering.   It's somewhat irritating I haven't been able to settle the issue of "me or the MDMA" definitively, and I really need to write that post in the autism forum, because it's outside the scope of this thread, and start diving deeper into the workings of at least one autistic brain.

In any case, I find it fascinating I've seen some of the reported therapeutic benefit.  Especially since I found the science when I went looking for explanation of the experience (as opposed to reading and then convincing myself I was experiencing what I'd read).  For example.


----------



## indigoaura

@MountainTrails Your posts have inspired me, and maybe I need to start a new thread. There is a nuance to the MDMA comedown that has value. It is an altered state in and of itself. I used to think of it as something to "get through." In recent years though, it has been great for writing and tapping into a separate corner of emotion. However, it is hard for me to know if this recent appreciation of the comedown is due to the MDMA being different, because "back in the day" comedowns were rough. They seemed to always involve crying and break ups...lol. If "Meh-DMA" is a separate drug, or a combination of specific byproducts, or a variation of MDMA or whatever...then maybe that is why the comedowns land differently for me now. Who knows. 

Here's a crazy idea, what if MehDMA was a deliberate attempt to reduce the high of MDMA but maintain the therapeutic benefits? I can't say I always feel those therapeutic benefits, as MehDMA often just leaves me feeling ill, but it would be interesting if this were some kind of intentional experiment gone wrong.


----------



## indigoaura

@MountainTrails The article you posted actually casts some light on the phenomena we are discussing here. It states, "Blocking a specific subtype of serotonin receptor that abounds in the nucleus accumbens fully inhibited MDMA’s prosocial effect. Furthermore, giving the mice a different serotonin-releasing drug that does not cause dopamine release mimicked the prosocial effects of MDMA but didn’t cause any addictive, or rewarding, effects." ( https://www.futurity.org/mdma-social-effects-addiction-2234472/). This further reinforces the theory that if receptors are being blocked by active impurities, the effects profile of MDMA could change. When users report limited desire to talk or be around people, seems like serotonin receptors could be blocked. When users report a lack of a "rush" or pleasure reward, perhaps dopamine receptors are blocked.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, those people on Science Madness have very poor reading comprehension skills.


----------



## majk13

A few pages earlier I described my experiences with mdma from the old days and my unpleasant holiday experience with blue punisher.  I read this thread all the time and decided to try mdma again.  I found something like this: I don't take any sleeping pills anymore, so this time the test will be more thorough.  besides, 3 people who have not used mdma for 15 years will take it with me.


----------



## G_Chem

I’m not sure comedowns really can be used to gauge how magical the experience is..

When I was younger I’d get nasty comedowns too, emotionally and physically, but it’s not that my rolls were any better.

Back then I ate like shit, (we all did it seems) didn’t hydrate well, often drank with it, didn’t take antioxidants...

These days my rolls are WAY harder but I take all the necessary precautions to make sure once I comedown that it goes well.  I often do use other substances like DMT in the day or two following to further negate any serotonin dip.

So I wonder if reduced comedowns are also the result of the health kick much of western society has been on in recent years compared to late 90’s/early 00’s.

Edit- Come to think of it the last time I was unable to follow a lot of my rolling rules, I got sick as hell right on comeup and spent the whole night feeling like I was freezing but really actually overheating under a blanket.  I felt that comedown for months afterwards, I also felt that significantly more MDMa had been metabolized into MDA that trip cuz I was getting visuals like I’d never had on any MDxx before.  (This was a batch I was VERY familiar with.)

-GC


----------



## MountainTrails

indigoaura said:


> @MountainTrails Your posts have inspired me, and maybe I need to start a new thread. There is a nuance to the MDMA comedown that has value. It is an altered state in and of itself. I used to think of it as something to "get through." In recent years though, it has been great for writing and tapping into a separate corner of emotion. However, it is hard for me to know if this recent appreciation of the comedown is due to the MDMA being different, because "back in the day" comedowns were rough. They seemed to always involve crying and break ups...lol. If "Meh-DMA" is a separate drug, or a combination of specific byproducts, or a variation of MDMA or whatever...then maybe that is why the comedowns land differently for me now. Who knows.
> 
> Here's a crazy idea, what if MehDMA was a deliberate attempt to reduce the high of MDMA but maintain the therapeutic benefits? I can't say I always feel those therapeutic benefits, as MehDMA often just leaves me feeling ill, but it would be interesting if this were some kind of intentional experiment gone wrong.



@indigoaura Both you and G_Chem are using "comedown" slightly differently than I do, I believe.

For me, the comedown is the same-day slope down to baseline after taking the MDMA.  What happens days or even weeks later I think of as "aftermath" and "aftereffects" rather than "comedown."

But as for slight differences in substance having different effects on receptors, yeah, absolutely I think that's reasonable.  And I agree that "rolling smart" in the form of self-care in advance (and afterward) makes a big difference in the toll it takes on one's body.  Rolling your tits off at a 100-degree F festival and getting dehydrated is more likely to smash you in the face afterward than other approaches.

I don't think MehDMA is a pharma experiment that got into the wild.  I guess a company could try to develop something that had the therapeutic benefit but not the fun, but why?  MDMA is on the fast track to rescheduling.  And why take the pleasant part away?  The people getting treated for things like PTSD maybe could use a few hours of happiness/contentment in their lives to balance out the crap.  Aside from turning down the amygdala/fear circuit, positive feelings might help navigate those dark places getting explored.  I'd be curious about an experienced therapist (or client) perspective on that one, because I'm typing away with no personal experience in that space (MDMA-assisted therapy).


----------



## ShooShoo

Anyone ever try blue ghosts around 2013 ? Had one at electric picnic very magical felt like all was right in the world


----------



## indigoaura

From Drugs Data:



> Greetings. We've made a tiny bit of progress.
> 
> Last week we got a certified standard for 2,3-MDMA. 2,3-MDMA has been run against all our previous MDMA identifications and does not match anything we've had submitted to us.
> 
> 
> I just ordered the following and expect to run them next week:
> 
> 1. N-methyl Homarylamine. Cayman 22239
> 2. Homarylamine. Cayman 21351
> 3. 2-MeOMC. Cayman 9001186
> 4. Methedrone. (4-MeOMC) Cayman 10529
> 5. 3-MeOMC. Cayman 9001187.
> 6. BDB Cayman 14213.
> 
> The rest of the list is not yet identified fully and they may or may not be available through any certified source. But we're working on it. I'll send you the "full list" and how we've identified each of them. Currently it's all just hand written squiggles on paper ;]
> 
> earth


----------



## G_Chem

Earth doesn’t have to be doing this.. I suggest we collectively show our appreciation somehow.  Dude is going above and beyond truly.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I am super impressed. They HEARD us, and read the articles, and are responding with actual action. Amazing.


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> I am super impressed. They HEARD us, and read the articles, and are responding with actual action. Amazing.



That shows that the Gluhbarnum hypothesis about 2,3-MDMA is false. As predicted GC-MS can tell the difference.
Deduction based on the commercial unavailability of 2,3-methylenedioxy compounds suggested 2,3 is a dead end.
The only outside possibility as far as isomer goes is 3-methoxy-4-methyl and that is a really long shot. 

No other isomer has the same fragmentation pattern as MDMA. So that pretty much *kills the isobar isomer theory dead*

I will go further and say *the enantiomer hypothesis is also false* because there is no plausible mechanism for creating one enantiomer over another using the commercial clandestine processes.

_If this is effect is real_ and I currently think it as likely to be real as not, i_t leaves the following possibilities_

*    Active impurities *altering the pharmacology either:-

*Missing active impurities with a positive (user POV) effect*, ie the  good stuff is actually less pure than bad stuff

*Active impurities with a negative (user POV) effect*, ie the good stuff is purer than the bad stuff.

if we are going down this particular impurity rabbit hole, *the possible impurities must be essentially invisible to GC-MS which means either heavy or unstable, or it is being seen but ignored,* which is why the TIC data file from IEC is important. 
The inconclusive NMR data, suggests that the material Vash ran through NMR is essentially pure MDMA but not absolutely clear because NMR would struggle to see dimer contamination, More data is essential, in particular NMR for Meh material side by side with Magic material.

Or very much less likely but still not disproven, 
*Inactive impurity*
 An inactive cut that has similar or higher UV absorbance to MDMA which enables the drug to be heavily cut but appear to be relatively high in MDMA to the UV testing at IEC. Or a different polymorph or an impurity that sequesters MDMA altering absorption.

that is the scientific point of view.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Great that Drugs Data are doing something.

@vecktor is it fair to say that these testing services should be detecting some sort of by-product profile in all of their tests?  Looking at, e.g., A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture... it looks like the academic analyses are always finding impurities.

If this is the case, should we be encouraging DD to simply go a bit further in their analysis?  Is that how it works, i.e. they are seeing MDMA and stopping there, and treating any other information as noise?  I'm just wondering if the problem nowadays is that the amount of impurities have increased and reached a threshold of causing a problem, or that new ones have been introduced.

And how does your theory about mdma dimer possibly being present in that other result fit with what DD are looking at, at the moment?


----------



## G_Chem

Yea I’ve never been a big fan of the iso-bar theory to be honest... The only way I could entertain it was to believe that there was some huge conspiracy in the Chinese PMK glycidate production chain that had them producing 2,3 instead of 3,4 simply due to economic or legal reasons.  It’d have to be a pretty big conspiracy and as you pointed out @vecktor we’d see the results on GC/MS.  (The latter point having been argued back and forth by you and Glubs.)

I’m still a major fan of impurity being the issue..  I also feel there is more of a spectrum than people give credit (a point I’ve been saying from the beginning as well) to both meh and magic MDMA.

I’m thinking about making a donation to earth wherever he’d like of 50$.  Im not rich and this is far from easy for me to do but he deserves it.

-GC


----------



## benson7

ShooShoo said:


> Anyone ever try blue ghosts around 2013 ? Had one at electric picnic very magical felt like all was right in the world



Yes I tried the blue ghosts and they were probably the last truly great pill I took. I have taken many stronger pills since then but the ghosts were absolutely gorgeous. There was a lot of brown sugar MDMA going around the UK at the same time which was equally good.


----------



## indigoaura

@vecktor What do you make of this article that was posted earlier in the thread: http://www.icadtsinternational.com/files/documents/2007_271.pdf

It seems to imply that the regioisomers are present, and that they are detected in siezed samples, but that the peaks so perfectly mirror MDMA, that they are overlapped. Is that still a possibility? This article seems to imply that you have to use different testing procedures to identify their presence at all and move beyond GCMS. Am I reading the article right?

@vash445 is looking for the data from the two samples I sent. Hoping that whoever tested those samples can locate the reports, because those were both meh samples and it would be good data to look at in combination with the previous data.

I think active impurities seem likely at this point. We have multiple research articles that support this hypothesis. It also seems likely that testing companies may just not be reporting that info if it seems insignificant to the analysis. Maybe they see it the same way they see binding or filler. But ecstasy data did report their finding of the 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol contamination in my meh sample that I sent to them in 2012. However, it was a pretty significant percentage of the capsule.


----------



## saracen7

IDK what you're talking about man modern MDMA is great, makes me feel like I've been knocked out by thousands of soft pillows and it feels good to BREATHE


----------



## ADHDMY4SS

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!


I've heard it's easy to pass the test kits. All they prove is there is MDMA and none of the other listed substances in your pill. That's not enough. There's so many fake pills now that were never fake before, so I can only imagine the level of counterfeiting has catapulted in the X/MDMA scene. That's where mixing and lacing really started and was repetitively done whether for profit or desire for taking different trips.


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> @vecktor What do you make of this article that was posted earlier in the thread: http://www.icadtsinternational.com/files/documents/2007_271.pdf
> 
> It seems to imply that the regioisomers are present, and that they are detected in siezed samples, but that the peaks so perfectly mirror MDMA, that they are overlapped. Is that still a possibility? This article seems to imply that you have to use different testing procedures to identify their presence at all and move beyond GCMS. Am I reading the article right?


to me the article implies more there is something odd with their GC-MS analysis setup for example their sample preparation is not consistent with differing tablet formulations or possibly there is a something that is breaking down to MDMA in the GC injector. which then makes the injection and retention time appear delayed.

If they were different regioisomers then even if they overlapped the MS part of the system would label the peak as having what is called co-eluting peaks, simply because the all the regiosomers with different sidechains have subtly different fragmentation patterns. so the peak would have different MS fragments at the start and the end. The fragments associated with one compound would be higher at the start an lower at the end. this can be de-convoluted to extract the two separate peaks. Also any experienced analyst can see even co-eluting peaks if they are a tenth of a second apart because the peak shape is wrong.
If its suspected there were two co-eluting peaks then I would be very careful to run a peak purity check using the software, and then use deconvolution software like AMDIS.

They also claim that HPLC did not detect any extra peaks which is very odd because of the possible regioisomers most of them (apart from 2,3-MDMA which is seen separately on GCMS) differ greasiness (polarity and lipophilicity) from 3,4 MDMA, so should be separable on HPLC. 

The UV IS absorbance mentioned is much more interesting because they call out an absorbance of over 100% in some samples. this is interesting because the chromophore for UV IS and fluorescence the methylenedioxyphenyl part of the compound. 

Maybe they just discovered that their validated approved reference sample of MDMA contained less MDMA than it should. That would not be the first time. Validated references of pharmaceuticals from both Cayman and LGC and apparently SIAL too have been reported to contain less material than claimed, most pharmaceutical companies use internally validated references for this reason. Nobody trusts the reference material suppliers. Many pharmacopeia standards allow over 100% assay results to be passed because the references are not as good as they should be.

I asked earlier if anyone had found a peer reviewed published version of this work, the work is pretty old and the syntheses used in the clandestine pills would be pre PMK glycidate, most likely peracid oxidation of isosafrole or wacker oxidation of safrole followed by leuckardt or reductive amination. On that basis their results (if they are real, and I have my doubts,) have limited current relevance. Wacker is known to make MDphenylpropanal which does lead to a regioisomer however most forensic literature says that it is separated on GCMS.  

more data is definitely required. If people held back 10mg every time they tasted MDMA and kept a record of whether that was magic or meh then it would build a number of samples which had been bio-assayed as meh or magic, it would be possible to look see if a physical or chemical difference can be seen using analysis. Having that set of samples would give researchers something to work with that they couldn't get anywhere else and you would find no difficulty getting someone to pick it up and do the work.

Keeping it simple ignore tablets and pills, because there are so many other confounding factors with pills, non uniform dosing, differing compression, non uniform surface non uniform dissolution and dispersion which are going to mask any chemical differences.


----------



## G_Chem

Sent our boy Earth a fiddy..  It ain’t much but Erowid deserves it.

-GC


----------



## babooon87

G_Chem said:


> I’m still a major fan of impurity being the issue..  I also feel there is more of a spectrum than people give credit (a point I’ve been saying from the beginning as well) to both meh and magic MDMA.
> 
> -GC



  That is an excellent point that I feel has not been discussed enough yet. In my experience there is definitely a spectrum with Magicdma at one end and the most boring Meh (the ones so boring you would have preferred being sober) at the other end.

   When you get one or both of the extremes it is easy to draw a clear line but I noticed many samples seem to fall halfway between which do produce a pretty pleasurable experience but lacks the full spectrum of the effects we all remember MDMA having.

  For me it is the nystagmus that has always been a huge staple of MDMA and that I never got AT ALL on any batches since 2009, even the ones that felt magic in all other ways. In fact that effect was what always what made me confident that what I had was MDMA/MDA since no other drugs produced that as consistently.

  Anyone else remember being absolutely unable to read or write a text while peaking because of the double vision ? I haven't had and haven't heard of anyone discussing having that " issue " for years.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

babooon87 said:


> Anyone else remember being absolutely unable to read or write a text while peaking because of the double vision ? I haven't had and haven't heard of anyone discussing having that " issue " for years.



You haven't read any of my posts then  :D 

Unfortunately, this is not a reliable indicator of MagicDMA as I often get this on the Meh stuff as well. If you're not getting nystagmus at all then you're obviously not doing enough...


----------



## babooon87

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> You haven't read any of my posts then  :D
> 
> Unfortunately, this is not a reliable indicator of MagicDMA as I often get this on the Meh stuff as well. If you're not getting nystagmus at all then you're obviously not doing enough...



Sorry I might have missed some posts with the length of this thread. As for the dosage don't worry upping the dose is something I have tried a few times with different batches but when some effects were missing it never seened to really bring them out any more. Maybe I should try dosing the magic clear crystals at got at christmas at 200 mg to see if I finally get those eye wiggles... Again, just for science


----------



## indigoaura

@babooon87 The nystagmus is a really good "side effect" to bring up. The batch that I did in October had intense (unable to use my phone to find a song on Spotify) nystagmus. But the lack of "feel good" just made it weird. That batch also had the most intense memory loss effect I have ever experienced. I could not complete a sentence. It also had a weird vibrating jaw effect that I did not care for. But it lacked magic. 

The batch I did on NYE had no nystagmus at all. My vision was always 100% clear. But it had a more positive headspace and pro-social vibe, with none of the weird memory stuff. I was moving around and talking to people and felt great. 

Same dose. 

Obviously something VERY different going on with each batch. 

Like you, I have never seen that increasing the dose causes dilation or nystagmus in batches where it is absent.


----------



## SunriseChampion

I don't know about nystagmus being a good indicator either. I mean maybe with standardised doses. I only ever got nystagmus when I was well and truly off my face level high. Lower doses of the good stuff didn't cause nystagmus.

These days, there is no way I'd want to test that level of dose again. I am scared of dosing as high at 34 as I did at 19.

....unless maybe the stuff is too good and it slips in, I guess. 

Sigh, I'm still waiting for my sample to come in so I may only be dreaming of nystagmus anyway....no idea what's going on with my source. Has gone silent.


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> @babooon87 The nystagmus is a really good "side effect" to bring up. The batch that I did in October had intense (unable to use my phone to find a song on Spotify) nystagmus. But the lack of "feel good" just made it weird. That batch also had the most intense memory loss effect I have ever experienced. I could not complete a sentence. It also had a weird vibrating jaw effect that I did not care for. But it lacked magic


Intense nystagmus + scrambled memory and difficulty completing sentences, less magic and jaw clenching : that sounds a hell lot like MDA from that description. Was it lab tested and confirmed mdma ? If not I would say that this was MDA for sure. Your description fits perfectly what I would have said if asked the differences between MDA and MDMA.


----------



## indigoaura

@babooon87 It did not feel like MDA. I like MDA. It did not have any of the psychoactive MDA components. Also, please note, it was specifically NOT jaw clenching. Instead, it was jaw vibrating. It was a very different effect on the jaw from what classic MDMA does. This was like a "brrr I'm cold" kind of shiver. Other MDMA makes me grind, chew, or just have my jaw all sideways. Now, strangely, 2CB will make my jaw tremble sometimes more like this stuff did. This MDMA looked like MDMA on Simon's reagent testing as opposed to MDA, and tested as MDMA on all the other reagents as well. I did not send this one to a lab. 

In any case...I used to associate dilated pupils, nystagmus, and jaw clenching (not vibrating) with good MDMA. My old school experiences contained all three consistently.


----------



## babooon87

indigoaura said:


> @babooon87 It did not feel like MDA. I like MDA. It did not have any of the psychoactive MDA components. Also, please note, it was specifically NOT jaw clenching. Instead, it was jaw vibrating. It was a very different effect on the jaw from what classic MDMA does. This was like a "brrr I'm cold" kind of shiver. Other MDMA makes me grind, chew, or just have my jaw all sideways. Now, strangely, 2CB will make my jaw tremble sometimes more like this stuff did. This MDMA looked like MDMA on Simon's reagent testing as opposed to MDA, and tested as MDMA on all the other reagents as well. I did not send this one to a lab.
> 
> In any case...I used to associate dilated pupils, nystagmus, and jaw clenching (not vibrating) with good MDMA. My old school experiences contained all three consistently.


I agree for these three symptoms. That being said dilated pupils is the least subjective one and I think the most important to draw the line between Magic and Meh. I have never had a magic roll that did not dilate my pupils. Hell even things like meth ot adderal dilate my pupils more than that new mdma. On Meh I look perfectly sober and no one could tell I took something. On real MDMA I look like a fucking mess, drenched in sweat with insect eyes, my jaw moving non stop and my eyelids dropping down.


----------



## G_Chem

Nystagmus rarely gets reported by people these days, but 100% agree it was more common back in the day.

It’s so under reported these days I almost forget it was a really common symptom of MDMA..

I never really got it even back in the day but I’ve always (and still do) get really blurry vision.  I’ve also watched people take the same product as me and get mad eye wiggles so I know it’s just me.

Yea when’s the last time any of ya’ll heard people talking about eye wiggles..

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> Yea when’s the last time any of ya’ll heard people talking about eye wiggles..



Just about every time I indulge. Perhaps I'm susceptible to it as i experience nystagmus even on the MehDMA, but the better the shit, the more i can't see.

And I fuckin love it...


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Yes. And, that was my point with sharing that anecdote awhile back of the EDM event. The people who looked like they were rolling were the minority. They had taken their shirts off. They were obviously hot. They were touching and rubbing everything. They kept running their fingers through their own hair. Their jaws were askew. Their eyes were huge. It was visibly obvious that they were rolling. All the other people standing around with their arms crossed and spaced out, grim looks on their faces did not look the part.


Yes,,its been so lomg now, but I rember how a different body language just automatically took over. Frist the rushing, then the heat, then depending on setting the intense desire to move and stretch and completely free the body up without any self-consciousness or thought of surroundings or any level of fear or anxiety.

The better the ecstasy,,the more obvious it would be visually.

However there are exceptions call a phenomenon I was always one myself and I could be on the most insanely high dose of really incredible MDMA crystal or pills and people would swear I was completely normal yet I was feeling everything you would want and desire from the drug but physiologically my body was just totally in control almost in as zen state.

Like one example a friend and I has four smiley face pills of the absolute highest order unbelievable pure ecstasy no come down just incredibly on top of the world and strong as hell.

When we got back from the club about 3 am having taken 4 extremely strong ecstasy pills since 9:30 pm. my friend and the other people present were adamant that I seem to 100-percent straight yet I was on the absolute highest most euphoric happiest and transcendental buzz of my life but just so right within myself that I could access and appear 100% normally and collected.

It is definitely a phenomenon and one whereby I was able to abuse substances in the way that I did and manage in all surroundings until later on in my drug taking years when I was generally in a more poorly condition and things were more apparent.

So @indigoaura I'm not disagreeing with or detracting from your point in any way just sharing this perspective because there also were many times when I was clearly physically off my head on MDMA just things I'm not always the same depending on how you are as an individual in a specific situation mentally spiritually and physiologically.



And also on genreral- does anybody recall first hearing the trend and terminology of LTC, Long term comedown appearing? I stepped out of the scene in 2005 until a year ago.

Did it start popping up after 2005, which is when I personally believe a lot of the the inferior MDMA began to come in?

Just something I haven't given much thought that's all.

Just thinking allowed here by the way folks.


----------



## AutoTripper

babooon87 said:


> Yeah real mdma make you hot and sweaty like crazy. Meh makes you cold and shivery.


Yes but I recall strongly, in 1996 when I Began my MDMA experiences one of the first characteristics I learnt about it was how you would leave a warm environment into a cold environment and be absolutely perishingly cold like just going to the bathroom from the nice communal music playing pot smoking living room or bedroom and you come back back to the homely igloo so glad to be home lol!  With everybody praising you for being so brave and surviving the cold I'm not even kidding.

It was especially noticeable at the Sanctuary Milton Keynes legal hardcore and jungle raves in the 90s whenever we would go outside to the fairground and food stall area for some fresh air we would be perishingly cold but on speed it was completely different and it's nowhere near as enhanced.

On one occasion after a New Year's Eve event at the Sanctuary helter-skelter it was after it was finished they kicked us all out of the building at 6 am and made us queue up for our coats outside it was literally minus 23 degrees with the wind chill factor I promise you for a fact and we waited 3 hours in wet T-shirts on comedowns from speed. Not fun but was so amazing to finally get home and warm.  I was only 16 then, beforre first ever MDMA.




Specified said:


> The stuff from the Netherlands is powerful! I had eye wobbles for about four hours lmfao couldn't text for shit



Used to love that symptom especially on the come up I've a really good dose we just called it I wobbles we won't say ok today by the internet back then. I always really liked that Simpson though and associated it with good quality pills.


G_Chem said:


> I never really got it even back in the day but I’ve always (and still do) get really blurry vision. I’ve also watched people take the same product as me and get mad eye wiggles so I know it’s just me.



Interesting and open-minded assumption which I can agree with because essentially we take so much for granted and forget how everybody's own physiology is unique to them like there would be many ways I would not Express any of of certain particular signs and symptoms of MDMA intoxication. My jaw was pretty sturdy below inssne doses for example. But we all respomd differently physiologically to to a huge variety of substances and foods.  

My vision was ALWAYS shot to bits on MDMA though., I couldn't read I couldn't do shit lol. It would have really helps to have some glasses back then. Hehe, I would have needed to go to the opticians rolling hard for my prescription! 


F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Just about every time I indulge. Perhaps I'm susceptible to it as i experience nystagmus even on the MehDMA, but the better the shit, the more i can't see.



With you on that one bro it's such a nice feeling because it completely takes you into the moment and out of your head and psychological thought and memory processes.  still one of my earliest memories getting to know MDMA going into the toilets at the Sanctuary Milton Keynes and getting loads of vision shakes trying to focus on the urinal.


----------



## majk13

I confirm that purple  mdma from canada as mehmdma... 

I will not even describe the details because it makes no sense. 

Lost time, money and health.

 Is it possible to buy magicmdma at DN?


----------



## indigoaura

> Is it possible to buy magicmdma at DN?



Possible...sure. But it is challenging. I have yet to really succeed. The reviews are more about shipping, reliability etc. and not really about effects of the product. Hard to know what to try, and then everything is always getting shut down or removed, so you may see something that looks like a good option and then it is gone.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

But do start threads regarding MDMA vs MehDMA on DN forums and ask people to report which vendor sells which. Eventually that may decrease the market for MehDMA and increase incentives for making the magic stuff more available. Recently had some frome the DN sold as "old school" Saffrole based MDMA. Better than the MehDMA I've had, but not 100% the real MDMA experience. Big, clear, crystals without any smell. May be good stuff, but a bit cut. Took about 125 mg and it felt like 70-75 mg of the good stuff.


----------



## G_Chem

Another thought I had was to get batches tested by different facilities and if they happen to vary like happened recently with some guy on Reddit, then we simply show both testing facilities the results and see their response...

I don’t think many/any people ever do this and bes case scenario they finally start to re-evaluate their testing procedures.

-GC


----------



## majk13

PsychedelicSummer said:


> But do start threads regarding MDMA vs MehDMA on DN forums and ask people to report which vendor sells which. Eventually that may decrease the market for MehDMA and increase incentives for making the magic stuff more available. Recently had some frome the DN sold as "old school" Saffrole based MDMA. Better than the MehDMA I've had, but not 100% the real MDMA experience. Big, clear, crystals without any smell. May be good stuff, but a bit cut. Took about 125 mg and it felt like 70-75 mg of the good stuff.


I posted a review once on the dread forum.  The moderator wrote that mdma is mdma and if it does not work because of tolerance or age ... A few hours later the topic was deleted.  They are there to ensure the flow of money on dark markets and not to care for quality.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

Maybe preface such a post with referring to this thread and write that no one should say the difference is because of tolerance, age, setting etc without first having read this thread... :^) If many of us posts, I'd be surprised if it gets taken down. Maybe just ask others to report in the thread when and where they find magic stuff (instead of reporting on the bad stuff - which would be more likely to upset some people).


----------



## majk13

Opinion must be expressed by someone who was dealing with magic mdma and mehmdma.  People under the age of 25 have no idea how real mdma works, so they describe mehmdma in their reports thinking that it works well


----------



## mooka

vecktor said:


> That shows that the Gluhbarnum hypothesis about 2,3-MDMA is false. As predicted GC-MS can tell the difference.
> Deduction based on the commercial unavailability of 2,3-methylenedioxy compounds suggested 2,3 is a dead end.
> The only outside possibility as far as isomer goes is 3-methoxy-4-methyl and that is a really long shot.
> 
> No other isomer has the same fragmentation pattern as MDMA. So that pretty much *kills the isobar isomer theory dead*
> 
> I will go further and say *the enantiomer hypothesis is also false* because there is no plausible mechanism for creating one enantiomer over another using the commercial clandestine processes.
> 
> _If this is effect is real_ and I currently think it as likely to be real as not, i_t leaves the following possibilities_
> 
> *    Active impurities *altering the pharmacology either:-
> 
> *Missing active impurities with a positive (user POV) effect*, ie the  good stuff is actually less pure than bad stuff
> 
> *Active impurities with a negative (user POV) effect*, ie the good stuff is purer than the bad stuff.
> 
> if we are going down this particular impurity rabbit hole, *the possible impurities must be essentially invisible to GC-MS which means either heavy or unstable, or it is being seen but ignored,* which is why the TIC data file from IEC is important.
> The inconclusive NMR data, suggests that the material Vash ran through NMR is essentially pure MDMA but not absolutely clear because NMR would struggle to see dimer contamination, More data is essential, in particular NMR for Meh material side by side with Magic material.
> 
> Or very much less likely but still not disproven,
> *Inactive impurity*
> An inactive cut that has similar or higher UV absorbance to MDMA which enables the drug to be heavily cut but appear to be relatively high in MDMA to the UV testing at IEC. Or a different polymorph or an impurity that sequesters MDMA altering absorption.
> 
> that is the scientific point of view.


I would say at this point that to track down the issue we should do as follow:

Obtain a certain amount of mehMDMA (few grams)
convert it to the freebase
gassing with HCl to obtain HCl salt, so dosage would be consistent with PIKHAL data, ie. 80-120 mg as active dosage,  so to rule out dosage differences and possible different pharmacokinetics from other salts with different molecular weight as citrates, tartrates etc.
recrystallise several times to obtain an extra pure product, keeping the mother liquor  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrystallization_(chemistry)
bio assay the ultra clean product! 
dry the combined mother liquors and send them to several substance testing companies to see how they deal with extremely unpure products and which substances they possibly find as impurities.
have the ultra pure mdma tested as well and see the results.
Personally I think that today both possibilities are true at the same time, today mdma is lacking specific synth route active byproducts as it was in the past, and possibly the new routes are creating other byproducts that are instead competitive in the brain receptor with the MDMA.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

mooka said:


> recrystallise several times to obtain an extra pure product, keeping the mother liquor  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrystallization_(chemistry)



Yep but that's a very non-trivial procedure to get right I believe


----------



## ThreePointCircle

majk13 said:


> I posted a review once on the dread forum.  The moderator wrote that mdma is mdma and if it does not work because of tolerance or age ... A few hours later the topic was deleted.  They are there to ensure the flow of money on dark markets and not to care for quality.





PsychedelicSummer said:


> Maybe preface such a post with referring to this thread and write that no one should say the difference is because of tolerance, age, setting etc without first having read this thread... :^) If many of us posts, I'd be surprised if it gets taken down. Maybe just ask others to report in the thread when and where they find magic stuff (instead of reporting on the bad stuff - which would be more likely to upset some people).



There's a thread on DNMAvengers at the moment.  Not a lot of promising leads on it yet though.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> Sent our boy Earth a fiddy..  It ain’t much but Erowid deserves it.


Is that via the Erowid donations page?  If Drugs Data are serious about getting to the bottom of this I'd be up for donating (and I hope others would too).  Just want to make sure they would be thorough in bringing their procedures up to scratch.  The way I see it, based on the papers mentioned in this thread, if an analysis doesn't include a number of by-products/impurities then there's something wrong with the testing methodology.


----------



## Goodwalt

Yep, i would donate some as well.


----------



## indigoaura

I emailed Drugs Data to ask where donations should go. Also, is there anyone in this thread who has submitted a MehDMA sample to Drugs Data previously?


----------



## G_Chem

So I went to the Drugs Data site for donating but it ultimately sent me to Erowid..

Yea he’s the only person who’s actually given us the time of day.  I remember earlier in my days of researching this topic (fuck 7/8yrs ago now..) I emailed him regarding old 90’s ecstasy submissions and he got back with a good/respectful response really quick.

Right now not only is he trying to help us find our answer but he’s updating his database as well.  I’m no expert on lab analysis but the bigger/wider your database the better.  They’ll now have references for all these questionable substances.  So they are in essence trying to change their practices by listening to our advice.
-GC


----------



## Hilopsilo

babooon87 said:


> Yeah real mdma make you hot and sweaty like crazy. Meh makes you cold and shivery.



I'm not so sure its one or the other, IMO it might be more accurate to say good MDMA just further increases how sensitive you become to temperature differences. The M that made me too hot inside the club is the same M that I felt like was freezing to death waiting for a cab home afterwards. Generally, it seems during the come-up and peak is when feeling too hot is common in myself and others, or maybe simply the temperature sensitivity either way is most intense at that point.

Getting hot on the comeup is one of the most stressful parts of rolling lol, makes you think you are going to become a statistic. I usually have to stand outside the crowd until my body temperature feels comfortable enough to actually rejoin my friends dancing.

Even with perfectly good MDMA, waiting for the cab in the winter/rain after a rave in sweaty n' skimpy rave attire, I've felt like I'm actually going to freeze to death in just those couple minutes



G_Chem said:


> *I’m not sure comedowns really can be used to gauge how magical the experience is..*
> 
> When I was younger I’d get nasty comedowns too, emotionally and physically, but it’s not that my rolls were any better.
> 
> Back then I ate like shit, (we all did it seems) didn’t hydrate well, often drank with it, didn’t take antioxidants...
> 
> These days my rolls are WAY harder but I take all the necessary precautions to make sure once I comedown that it goes well.  I often do use other substances like DMT in the day or two following to further negate any serotonin dip.
> 
> So I wonder if reduced comedowns are also the result of the health kick much of western society has been on in recent years compared to late 90’s/early 00’s.
> 
> Edit- Come to think of it the last time I was unable to follow a lot of my rolling rules, I got sick as hell right on comeup and spent the whole night feeling like I was freezing but really actually overheating under a blanket.  I felt that comedown for months afterwards, I also felt that significantly more MDMa had been metabolized into MDA that trip cuz I was getting visuals like I’d never had on any MDxx before.  (This was a batch I was VERY familiar with.)
> 
> -GC



Agreed, for the last 10 years any MDMA I've taken that tested clean of any adulterants, Meh or not has a similar "comedown" for me, or lack of one.



majk13 said:


> Opinion must be expressed by someone who was dealing with magic mdma and mehmdma.  *People under the age of 25 have no idea how real mdma works*, so they describe mehmdma in their reports thinking that it works well



I agree you need experience with both to get any sort of perspective, but please enough with this Either people take it enough to start realizing a difference or they don't, I'm still not entirely convinced this issue has much to do with who-had-what-when

if you say they're too young to know, they're just gonna say you're too old to remember, and we're back in that stalemate


----------



## popsweat

To me qdance crew presses are magic mdma. Eye wiggles, euphoria, enhanced tactile etc

You can tell how much effort they put into the press since they are usually bilayered, hardpressed and sometimes have sheen waxy look to them. Nothing like the other pills out there being pressed


----------



## ThreePointCircle

popsweat said:


> To me qdance crew presses are magic mdma. Eye wiggles, euphoria, enhanced tactile etc



The only consistency in reports seems to be quite a few people have good things to say about qdance pills.  I don't get it though, they are huge.  Surely they can only be described as magic if you get full effects on half of a pill?

I know we're are starting to think about a continuum from completely meh to completely magic depending on the amount and profile of impurities.  Maybe qdance pills are sufficiently less meh than other options at the moment?


----------



## vecktor

mooka said:


> I would say at this point that to track down the issue we should do as follow:
> 
> Obtain a certain amount of mehMDMA (few grams)
> convert it to the freebase
> gassing with HCl to obtain HCl salt, so dosage would be consistent with PIKHAL data, ie. 80-120 mg as active dosage,  so to rule out dosage differences and possible different pharmacokinetics from other salts with different molecular weight as citrates, tartrates etc.
> recrystallise several times to obtain an extra pure product, keeping the mother liquor  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrystallization_(chemistry)
> bio assay the ultra clean product!
> dry the combined mother liquors and send them to several substance testing companies to see how they deal with extremely unpure products and which substances they possibly find as impurities.
> have the ultra pure mdma tested as well and see the results.
> Personally I think that today both possibilities are true at the same time, today mdma is lacking specific synth route active byproducts as it was in the past, and possibly the new routes are creating other byproducts that are instead competitive in the brain receptor with the MDMA.



The alternative is to extract Meh MDMA with a poor solvent for MDMA.HCl such as MTBE or Ether, evaporate and concentrate the extract and GC-MS that. Triturating with antisolvent. If it is being sent to a testing service it will need absorbing on something solid like lactose or silica gel because they will have difficulties handling small quantities of extracts. If you freebase the material then some things may be be lost into the aqueous and other things might be altered by the strongly basic solution. So it is better to extract the impurities before this.


Once that is done then the material can be freebased and purified with whatever method, recrystallized, distilled,run through a column and turned into HCl monohydrate or anhydrous form.

The main thing is to get samples with bioassay reports saying meh or magic, and then compare the two groups. If there is a chemical difference then it should be obvious. If there is no detectable difference then that is useful information too.
My forensic head says if this is real then the variability is probably something to do with syntheses being driven by methylamine synthon availability (nitromethane N-methylformamide etc) rather than  the availability of PMK, PMK glycidate or safrole. MDMA cooks may be able to help find an answer but they are unlikely to come forward. 

It would be good to know this before MDMA therapies hit the mainstream.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@vecktor slight tangent: is recrystallisation as a method of purifying mdma feasible for a non-expert in a home setup?  I'm assuming no, but if it is, does it require a good estimation of what impurities are present or could a procedure be developed that is likely to pop out clean mdma at the end?


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> @vecktor slight tangent: is recrystallisation as a method of purifying mdma feasible for a non-expert in a home setup?  I'm assuming no, but if it is, does it require a good estimation of what impurities are present or could a procedure be developed that is likely to pop out clean mdma at the end?




Its possible but pointless on the gram. and it's easier on bigger amounts.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> Its possible but pointless on the gram. You gotta like pickup CP (checkpoint) ammounts before it becomes worthwhile



It seems, at least where I'm from, that I'm so far from being able to get magicdma that for me the cost/benefit ratio means I'm willing to do quite a lot.  Like, if it meant 5g of meh could be converted into 500mg of magic I'd be fine with that return.


----------



## vecktor

ThreePointCircle said:


> @vecktor slight tangent: is recrystallisation as a method of purifying mdma feasible for a non-expert in a home setup?  I'm assuming no, but if it is, does it require a good estimation of what impurities are present or could a procedure be developed that is likely to pop out clean mdma at the end?



yes recrystalisation is doable on a sub gram scale, but you need small kit. like small funnels and preferably one of sintered glass, decent filter paper, glass pipettes, decent rubber free syringes, hot air gun, small flasks or vials and plenty of patience.  You need to think about what you are doing before you do it and think it through so you don't lose any material unnecessarily, for example don't physically remove things from filter papers or frits dissolve them as part of the next crystalisation or dissolve it and use evaporation to get back the solids. Try and remove the mother liquor with a pipette, not a filter. Old school chemists would centrifuge the solids down and pipette out the mother liquor, add fresh ice cold solvent and agitate the solids then centrifuge again. This is all a bit of a lost art which is not taught today which is a shame.  Could a non chemist do it? of course.

Look up microscale chemistry. Recrystalisation was the go to technique before everyone ran columns for everything and produced yellow oils, supposedly pure to NMR, for every single compound known to man. Recrystalisations can be run down to about 25-50mg, less than that and it all gets a bit too difficult even for pros with all the toys.

Losses will be 20-50% even if you do it right, but you will end up with a pure product. Solvent selection is critical, Isopropanol or high grade ethanol is the traditional thing for these type of compounds, the solvent needs to be pure or rather it needs to be clean. The classic book guide for the perplexed organic chemist  by HJE Loewenthal is excellent on micro chemistry.

So IMHO it is very possible to for anyone to successfully turn 1g into much less, but hopefully much more pure material... There is also the huge issue that MDMA is unfortunately highly illegal and doing this kind of thing could end up with a bottomless pit opening up right under you.

if you want to learn then it would make sense to practice and do it with something vaguely similar but not illegal.


----------



## G_Chem

^^^Some good info here.  For anyone looking to do any chemistry process, think over each step beforehand and how you can optimize them further if possible with minimal loss, look over all available literature on the subject and when you’ve thought it over write down a rough draft of your plan.  Then go over the rough draft and optimize further if possible.

Micro-Chemistry glassware isn’t easy to find.  So for the non-chemists, head on down to your local community thrift store and find unique pieces of glass that way.  Much of it won’t be heat resistant but you can find odd stuff.  You can even find good lab glass from time to time.

Think over your steps and what pieces may fit your needs.  If you have a Dremel drill you can modify pieces too.

-GC


----------



## vash445

@vecktor sorry for the delays here is the Magic NMR sample .  

i'll try and get the other 2 samples of meh I recently got, but he told me the sample didn't even come close on one... I'm guessing that is the MDP2Pol batch


----------



## vecktor

G_Chem said:


> ^^^Some good info here.  For anyone looking to do any chemistry process, think over each step beforehand and how you can optimize them further if possible with minimal loss, look over all available literature on the subject and when you’ve thought it over write down a rough draft of your plan.  Then go over the rough draft and optimize further if possible.
> 
> Micro-Chemistry glassware isn’t easy to find.  So for the non-chemists, head on down to your local community thrift store and find unique pieces of glass that way.  Much of it won’t be heat resistant but you can find odd stuff.  You can even find good lab glass from time to time.
> 
> Think over your steps and what pieces may fit your needs.  If you have a Dremel drill you can modify pieces too.
> 
> -GC



Ebay has all the glassware anyone could ever want.


----------



## G_Chem

Just be careful.. It’s also the most watched source out there too.  Only use it if you absolutely have to.

-GC


----------



## vecktor

vash445 said:


> @vecktor sorry for the delays here is the Magic NMR sample .
> 
> i'll try and get the other 2 samples of meh I recently got, but he told me the sample didn't even come close on one... I'm guessing that is the MDP2Pol batch


The more data the more likely we are to find something is there or something is missing.

I will assign the patent for magicMDMA to bluelight if something does come out of it.

If this is Magic, was the earlier NMR Meh or Magic?


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> The more data the more likely we are to find something is there or something is missing.
> 
> I will assign the patent for magicMDMA to bluelight if something does come out of it.




agreed that's what I told him, he is gonna try and look in the machine now that he found the magic batch thou... But he wanted a bigger sample of A which we can't get @indigoaura could possibly get me more of B..

Sorry I do not have more for you


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> The more data the more likely we are to find something is there or something is missing.
> 
> I will assign the patent for magicMDMA to bluelight if something does come out of it.
> 
> If this is Magic, was the earlier NMR Meh or Magic?




Earlier NMR was meh safrole based, Al/HG with methylamine. wacker based MEOH

Todays NMR is Magic . Non darknet as far as I know . unknown route


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 

Yes, I can get more of Sample B without a problem. Sample A was the one I was more interested in, as I consumed that shit for a decade at least. It was previously sent to Drugs Data and showed up as MDMA + MDP2Pol. At that time, the supplier added multiple acetone washes to his methodology. Product was whiter after that, but the effects never really improved. 

Drugs Data is also re-examining the data for the batch I sent to them (Sample A).


----------



## G_Chem

One more post with pictures showing the difference between blocky obviously cut MDMA “shards” and more pure MDMA shards..

First a pic of some blocky likely impure shit, whatdya know Uk origin...



			https://i.redd.it/ejcaw2or6rb41.jpg
		


Second is more in line with how it should look..



			https://i.redd.it/8xvj53t37yb41.jpg
		


Obviously neither are clear/pure but you hopefully start to get an idea of what I’m talking about when I make the description of the different shards out there.

-GC


----------



## popsweat

ThreePointCircle said:


> The only consistency in reports seems to be quite a few people have good things to say about qdance pills.  I don't get it though, they are huge.  Surely they can only be described as magic if you get full effects on half of a pill?
> 
> I know we're are starting to think about a continuum from completely meh to completely magic depending on the amount and profile of impurities.  Maybe qdance pills are sufficiently less meh than other options at the moment?



Most reports have people testing with half or quarters because a full pill is too strong. The crew also distributes non press mdma as well but when purchasing its hard to know if its actual sourced from them. That's why the presses are easier because they are very difficult to copy.

The nature of the hard press gives it a longer and slower release as well which is why people claim 5-6 hours on it.

Here is a pic of the supposed source mdma that goes into presses let me know what you guys think






						MDMA.JPG - AnonFiles
					






					anonfile.com


----------



## vash445

@vecktor this should be a sample of meh. Not sure if the Pol batch or sample B

Huge peak around 3.7 and integrates into 46


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Sorry, just wanted to check I was understanding this right:

The file ending ...207.pdf is confirmed magic, and the file ending ...579.pdf is confirmed meh?

And looking at an NMR plot like this, differences along the ppm axis refer to different types of hydrogen groups, e.g. CH2, CH3, OH? And the integration value is the relative amount of that group in the sample?  (apologies if group isn't the right term).  So basically the position of the peaks says what's in it and the integration values gives the amounts?  I note that comparing the two samples a lot of the peaks are close but slightly off - e.g. 1.2485 vs 1.0886.  Is that just variation in testing and happy to ignore?

So the big differences in the <7ppm range are:  magic - peak around 4.87 (missing integration value?) that is not present in the meh sample.  meh - big peak around 3.70 that is missing from the magic sample.

Is the 5 - 160ppm plot significant?  Its only in the magic report.


----------



## indigoaura

@ThreePointCircle May also be worthwhile to look at the original NMR sample (also meh) that was shared. I am wondering if that original sample is more similar to the magic NMR or the new meh NMR.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> @ThreePointCircle May also be worthwhile to look at the original NMR sample (also meh) that was shared. I am wondering if that original sample is more similar to the magic NMR or the new meh NMR.



Do you mean this one: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14686540 ?

If so, it's definitely more like the meh plot (...579.pdf).  They both have an extra peak at 3.5 - 3.7ppm and are both missing the peak around 4.9ppm that the magic sample had.

The magic sample looks just like the reference NMR plot from this paper: https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1201&context=jj_pubs  However, they mention something about 4.5 - 4.7ppm being a peak from the water used in the sample prep.  So should that be ignored?  How come it isn't in the other two plots?


----------



## G_Chem

I’m very curious about this extra peak...

-Gc


----------



## indigoaura

Potentially relevant: https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_nuclear_magnetic_resonance_NMR_spectroscopy


----------



## indigoaura

This also shows various NMR results for seized tablets: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2019/ay/c9ay01403a


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> Potentially relevant: https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_nuclear_magnetic_resonance_NMR_spectroscopy


These plots are 1H so I don't think we can compare to the 13C info


indigoaura said:


> This also shows various NMR results for seized tablets: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2019/ay/c9ay01403a


Yeah I spotted this as well.  Need to process it a bit more...


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Ok, so check out UN doc: Recommended methods for testing illicit ring-substituted amphetamine derivatives 

On page 37 onwards there are reference 1H NMR plots.

The magic sample (...207.pdf) seems to match the reference MDMA HCL in D2O (page 45)
The meh sample ( ...579.pdf) appears be closest to MMDA base in CDCl3 (page 44).  Not a super close match but I think its the best on my initial look
The other meh sample (...312.png)  perhaps is also closest to MMDA but even less good a fit


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Possibly a mixture of MDMA base plus one of the ones that produce the spike around 3.7 e.g. DMA base would fit the meh samples better.  I'm not sure how mixtures affect NMR plots

Tbf, take everything I've said with a pinch of salt, and wait for someone like @vecktor to comment.  I haven't got a clue lol


----------



## indigoaura

I also noticed the similarity to MMDA in the article I posted.

<edited to add: typo. MDDMA is what is noted in the article>


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> I also noticed the similarity to MMDA in the article I posted.


Do you mean MDDMA?  I couldn't spot MMDA in the Naqi paper.


----------



## vecktor

I will get on with it and take a proper look at the NMRs as soon as I get the time, Apologies for the delay but I am a little busy at the moment and I would rather do it properly.


----------



## indigoaura

ThreePointCircle said:


> Do you mean MDDMA?  I couldn't spot MMDA in the Naqi paper.



My bad. MDDMA in this article: https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2019/ay/c9ay01403a


----------



## G_Chem

I have been finding MDDMA in more reports recently including the guy who contacted me about his sample.  Remember that two labs also gave him different results, with the second lab unable to find the MDDMA and MDA that the first lab spotted.

So it’s possible MDDMA could be an issue impurity, from my research it lacks in high and would weigh the overall product down.  One possible way it shows up is when the methylamine is synthesized in lab and not purified properly leaving ammonium chloride and/or dimethylamine.  That said MDA would very likely bevthere too, and MDA would increase the overalleffecf.

Dude said his batch was pretty damn good but who knows...

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

But the MDDMA is missing the big peak around 3.7 of ...579.pdf and around 3.5 of ...312.png?  From the UN doc, PMA, DMA, TMA, DOB, STP, DOET and MMDA had peaks somewhere around 3.7 - 3.8 but none had 3.5 (not as a big peak).  MDMA base + DMA base seemed the closest fit for me but I'm guessing at this point.


----------



## sekio

NMR is a poor tool for identifying mixtures... would prefer a GCMS or LCMS


----------



## Hilopsilo

So maybe if vecktor can confirm anything odd about the samples using the NMR data, we can further investigate with GCMS somehow?


----------



## indigoaura

@Hilopsilo & @sekio Sample 579.pdf already had GCMS analysis through Drugs Data. They found MDMA and 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol. I thought we were doing NMR because GCMS was not picking up all the contaminants clearly? @vash445 could comment more on that, but I recall that GCMS did not pick up anything wrong with his meh sample, and so they did NMR. I may not be remembering correctly.

I just read a research study showing NMR to be good for determining complex mixtures, and equal to GCMS. @sekio Is there a reason why GCMS would be preferable?




__





						1 H quantitative NMR and UHPLC-MS analysis of seized MDMA/NPS mixtures and tablets from night-club venues   - Analytical Methods (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/C9AY01403A
					





					pubs.rsc.org


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> @Hilopsilo & @sekio Sample 579.pdf already had GCMS analysis through Drugs Data. They found MDMA and 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol.



An alternative name for that is 1-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-propanone right?  In this paper they've got NMR data for that, but it doesn't seem to line up that well with 579.pdf.  Does NMR of mixtures throw things round a bit, or was Drug's Data analysis wrong, or was the NMR analysis wrong?  Or am I wrong, haha?


----------



## indigoaura

ThreePointCircle said:


> An alternative name for that is 1-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-propanone right?  In this paper they've got NMR data for that, but it doesn't seem to line up that well with 579.pdf.  Does NMR of mixtures throw things round a bit, or was Drug's Data analysis wrong, or was the NMR analysis wrong?  Or am I wrong, haha?



I honestly don't know the answers to any of these questions.


----------



## indigoaura

One possibility is that @vash445 got Sample A and Sample B mixed up, and the results that are currently mis-placed are the Sample A results (1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol impurity), and this file is actually Sample B.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> One possibility is that @vash445 got Sample A and Sample B mixed up, and the results that are currently mis-placed are the Sample A results (1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol impurity), and this file is actually Sample B.


Ah yeah, that fits a bit better actually.  I don't know the tolerances on these NMR plots but I feel like that is closer.


----------



## G_Chem

So we may have found this already (it’s been years on this project folks) but I just stumbled on another thread about amphetamine impurities and how around 2014 a large increase of intermediates began popping up in batches analyzed in Spain.  (Around the same time the most used reduction changed too for MDMA.)

In the thread the guy talks about how 1-phenyl-2-propanol can cause sedation and ataxia (loss of coordination) and this intermediate compound is analogous to MDP2P-ol found in Indigo’s EData report.  It also correlates well with Indigos experiences with that particular product.

I think I can firmly say at this point that MD-P2Pol AT LEAST has mild psychoactive effects that likely interfere with MDMA.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Is MDP2P-ol something we could get a sample of from a supplier?


----------



## vash445

vecktor said:


> I will get on with it and take a proper look at the NMRs as soon as I get the time, Apologies for the delay but I am a little busy at the moment and I would rather do it properly.




Thank you for taking the time to do this!!! This is truly a team effort and I thank everyone who has helped so far


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> One possibility is that @vash445 got Sample A and Sample B mixed up, and the results that are currently mis-placed are the Sample A results (1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol impurity), and this file is actually Sample B.



Quite possibly, I mean this is all I had was given, I was def given the magic sample and 1 result of indigo, I've been meaning to get ahold of my friend. But he has been busy.


----------



## vash445

ShooShoo said:


> Would the stuff given in mdma therapy be magic?


yes


----------



## vash445

sekio said:


> NMR is a poor tool for identifying mixtures... would prefer a GCMS or LCMS



GCMS or LCMS IS MISSING it. ALONG with MALDI. I'm pretty sure my FIRST meh sample was GCMS and MALDI for confirmation . Confirmed 97% MDMA base . I said really cuz I did not get high really...  And neither did a molly virgin.The tester was like ya me neither... GCMS is not simple they are missing it along drugs data and Energy control are missing something. Trust me my friend was easily fooled once on the report


----------



## indigoaura

vash445 said:


> Quite possibly, I mean this is all I had was given, I was def given the magic sample and 1 result of indigo, I've been meaning to get ahold of my friend. But he has been busy.


@vash445 we can always clarify this with a 2nd sample B analysis. That will clarify what is going on.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @Hilopsilo & @sekio Sample 579.pdf already had GCMS analysis through Drugs Data. They found MDMA and 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol. I thought we were doing NMR because GCMS was not picking up all the contaminants clearly? @vash445 could comment more on that, but I recall that GCMS did not pick up anything wrong with his meh sample, and so they did NMR. I may not be remembering correctly.
> 
> I just read a research study showing NMR to be good for determining complex mixtures, and equal to GCMS. @sekio Is there a reason why GCMS would be preferable?
> 
> 
> 1 H quantitative NMR and UHPLC-MS analysis of seized MDMA/NPS mixtures and tablets from night-club venues   - Analytical Methods (RSC Publishing) DOI:10.1039/C9AY01403A



@sekio  I had a private lab (IE NOT ENERGY CONTROL or drugs data) so they have time for mine vs other things/samples they ran GC/MS with MALDI . Molweight came up on point for confirmation and nothing really odd  with the GC/MS. An NMR was done after the fact and this is what was found in the NMR...


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @vash445 we can always clarify this with a 2nd sample B analysis. That will clarify what is going on.



Yes if need be that is always something we can do.


----------



## atara

hey i read your NMR and these are my dumb guesses:





__





						Sciencemadness Discussion Board - What is wrong with MDMA production nowdays? - Powered by XMB 1.9.11
					





					www.sciencemadness.org
				




i should point out that 3,4-DMMA may resemble MDMA on both colorimetry and GC/MS, particularly the latter as it fragments into similar things. i do not know of available colorimetric data for 3,4-DMMA. it is practically inactive which may account for the lack of stimulant activity (even mydriasis) in samples


----------



## vash445

atara said:


> hey i read your NMR and these are my dumb guesses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sciencemadness Discussion Board - What is wrong with MDMA production nowdays? - Powered by XMB 1.9.11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.sciencemadness.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i should point out that 3,4-DMMA may resemble MDMA on both colorimetry and GC/MS, particularly the latter as it fragments into similar things. i do not know of available colorimetric data for 3,4-DMMA. it is practically inactive which may account for the lack of stimulant activity (even mydriasis) in samples




You need to check the FIRST MDMAnmr sample as well... I have uploaded it as well on Scimad. Your idea of a 3,4DMMA or 3,4MDDMA like this are being introduced into the ecstasy supply by high-volume drug traffickers because they are cheap to produce and known to fool colorimetry is sound. But probably wrong because batch 1 was private lab and had this issue as well. Def was NOT cut check the first NMR we posted  

.


----------



## vash445

WE are trying to make NMR meh batch 1 active. We will attempt to clean it with silica, retest and Reeat after completion, a uv stain was done with ninhydrin  and UV shows 1 active compound. This shows it is an AMINE and there are no other amines UV stained or not.


----------



## indigoaura

vash445 said:


> WE are trying to make NMR meh batch 1 active. We will attempt to clean it with silica, retest and Reeat after completion, a uv stain was done with ninhydrin  and UV shows 1 active compound. This shows it is an AMINE and there are no other amines UV stained or not.



So, if the UV stain only shows one active compound, then that would mean the only active compound is MDMA, right? If it is not MDMA, but is instead some active variation of it, then cleaning it won't matter, right? Or, are you saying there is one additional compound besides the MDMA?


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> So, if the UV stain only shows one active compound, then that would mean the only active compound is MDMA, right? If it is not MDMA, but is instead some active variation of it, then cleaning it won't matter, right? Or, are you saying there is one additional compound besides the MDMA?



It should only be MDMA... Thou im told now that Ninhydrin does not react with MDDM or other tertiary amines


----------



## indigoaura

vash445 said:


> It should only be MDMA... Thou im told now that Ninhydrin does not react with MDDM or other tertiary amines



I am confused. How will cleaning help if there is nothing there besides MDMA? Clearly, it is not the same as the other NMR, because of the additional spike. If there is only one compound, but the NMR does not match the NMR for MDMA, wouldn't that mean it is actually a different compound?


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> I am confused. How will cleaning help if there is nothing there besides MDMA? Clearly, it is not the same as the other NMR, because of the additional spike. If there is only one compound, but the NMR does not match the NMR for MDMA, wouldn't that mean it is actually a different compound?



Ninhydrin does not react with MDDM or other tertiary amines  so there could be something the TLC is missing


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> I am confused. How will cleaning help if there is nothing there besides MDMA? Clearly, it is not the same as the other NMR, because of the additional spike. If there is only one compound, but the NMR does not match the NMR for MDMA, wouldn't that mean it is actually a different compound?




Update  Meh NMR sample #1 has went thru a silica column the NMR looks more in line with magic now. Will keep you updated.


----------



## vash445

Meh #1 NMR updated here is the new one more inline with magic. After product cleaning @vecktor


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@vash445 Wow!  So was that originally the ...579.pdf sample or the ...312.png sample?  And yeah, that's looking a lot more like the magic sample, and the MDMA NMR references online (e.g. the UN doc)


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> @vash445 Wow!  So was that originally the ...579.pdf sample or the ...312.png sample?  And yeah, that's looking a lot more like the magic sample, and the MDMA NMR references online (e.g. the UN doc)


312.png sample . Self synth safrole via benz wacker batch... pretty sure dis one as we ran the Hell out of that NMR. the one Vecktor did nov. 18th ish


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@vash445 right, got you.  Very exciting.

My knowledge of such things is limited but after going through the column you have several fractions right?  Any possibility of doing the NMR on the other fractions to get a 'clean' view of the contaminant that was originally present?


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> @vash445 right, got you.  Very exciting.
> 
> My knowledge of such things is limited but after going through the column you have several fractions right?  Any possibility of doing the NMR on the other fractions to get a 'clean' view of the contaminant that was originally present?



No idea, sorry mate I asked if he still has the layers to investigate, the amount of product was only 1-2 grams so I don't expect much solvent anyways

*edit he said he has the solvent still but the product was already pretty clean to begin with...


----------



## indigoaura

So, theoretically, something was there in addition to the MDMA that was largely flying under the radar, and the silica column cleared it? What is a silica column and is that something people could try on their own product?


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> So, theoretically, something was there in addition to the MDMA that was largely flying under the radar, and the silica column cleared it? What is a silica column and is that something people could try on their own product?











						Tips and Tricks for the Lab: Column Packing - ChemistryViews
					

The quick and efficient setting up of a column can take years to master. Here are some tips and tricks to set up the perfect column




					www.chemistryviews.org
				




Column chromatography is frequently used by organic chemists to purify liquids (and solids.) An impure sample is loaded onto a column of adsorbant, such as silica gel or alumina. An organic solvent or a mixture of solvents (the eluent) flows down through the column. Components of the sample separate from each other by partitioning between the stationary packing material (silica or alumina) and the mobile eluent. Molecules with different polarity partition to different extents, and therefore move through the column at different rates. The eluent is collected in fractions. Fractions are typically analyzed by thin-layer chromatography to see if separation of the components was successful.

Ayyone can run one.. thou yield is largely dependent on the skill of the chemist. Things like solubility, eluation, the rate the solvent is dripped thru column, the size of the hole of the column... It's not hard just takes practice to nail it. a vacuum handpump or fluid transfer kit or similar  can make the vacuum needed for packing without to fancy/expense vacuum to pack the column. Something like this will probably work, as long as you don't pull solvent thru it. on to pack the sand.






						Vacuum Pump - 12V: Industrial Products: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

Vacuum Pump - 12V: Industrial Products: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				




And yes something was there in addition to the MDMA that was largely flying under the radar


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> No idea, sorry mate I asked if he still has the layers to investigate, the amount of product was only 1-2 grams so I don't expect much solvent anyways
> 
> *edit he said he has the solvent still but the product was already pretty clean to begin with...



No worries.  I presume then that the visiualisation technique used didn't show anything on the non-mdma fractions.  So the contaminant isn't visible to that method?  I guess you could just NMR each fraction but I appreciate that's probably a lot of work


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> Vacuum Pump - 12V: Industrial Products: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> Vacuum Pump - 12V: Industrial Products: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


I was looking at a couple of videos, and the first one they didn't use any kind of pump - just let gravity do its thing.  Is this feasible?  And what solvent did you use?

Once you've got your fractions, could we just use reagents to locate the mdma?  Or is that too rough a procedure.


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> I was looking at a couple of videos, and the first one they didn't use any kind of pump - just let gravity do its thing.  Is this feasible?  And what solvent did you use?
> 
> Once you've got your fractions, could we just use reagents to locate the mdma?  Or is that too rough a procedure.



The pump is to settle the sand/silica. Not sure if gravity will work. I know you can let gravity work for solvent... I have no idea the solvent or any idea on the parameters  he ran the reaction. I will get more info as it becomes available. But you should not run a cheap vacuum with solvent thru it that I can say.


----------



## vash445

Standard size for flash column (230-400 mesh) 40-63 um with a 60 angstrom . Solvent Methanol/DCM


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> Standard size for flash column (230-400 mesh) 40-63 um with a 60 angstrom . Solvent denatured Methanol:DCM


Thanks.  I'm guessing that's Methanol : DCM.  Any info on the ratio?


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> Thanks.  I'm guessing that's Methanol : DCM.  Any info on the ratio?



no idea on ratio sorry`, I imagine it is highly column dependent. Is the elute staying up top you probably need more MEOH etc. etc. This isn't my speciality sorry


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> no idea on ratio sorry`, I imagine it is highly column dependent. Is the elute staying up top you probably need more MEOH etc. etc. This isn't my speciality sorry


No worries.  Thanks for all your help - it's been a great step forward.


----------



## vash445

We will be running a GC/MS and a NMR on the fraction of the original MEH. Stay turned and feel free to help us


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Great.  I'd love to help but not sure what I can do.  I was thinking about the recrystallisation but since you've had success converting a sample, I'm thinking I should give the chromatography a go.  All a bit of a learning curve but oh well, hopefully it'll be well worth it.


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> Great.  I'd love to help but not sure what I can do.  I was thinking about the recrystallisation but since you've had success converting a sample, I'm thinking I should give the chromatography a go.  All a bit of a learning curve but oh well, hopefully it'll be well worth it.



Well interpreting GC/MS or NMR reports in any helps.

We also plan on setting up a bitcoin and monero address for donations to run the NMR. These solvents aren't free and anything is greatly appreciated a Energy control test is $75 and is subsidized, I imagine without connections these NMR aren't really cheap to run either and people with access to one can't run a sample cuz work will flip out so ... Anything would be appreciated  (that goes to anyone )


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> We also plan on setting up a bitcoin and monero address for donations to run the NMR.


I'd be up for giving a donation


----------



## ShooShoo

From a cursory glance at r/mdma it seems like everyone there is getting magic stuff..


----------



## RyybsNarcs

ShooShoo said:


> From a cursory glance at r/mdma it seems like everyone there is getting magic stuff..



Easy to think so. You send a sample to a testing center, and they tell you that it's +90% pure MDMA, of course you think it is good stuff if you haven't done your research. Also, if you have never done real MagicMDMA, you just accept that MehMDMA is what MDMA experience should be.

Even MehMDMA produces pretty unique experience, so people are satisfied with it.


----------



## sekio

The reason I prefer GCMS to NMR is GCMS has a seperation step (the GC) prior to the detection (MS) which allows you to get clean spectra for the individual compounds that elute. A NMR machine does no seperation and, while you can absolutely use it to determine purity, it is not quite as elegant as a GC analysis. NMR of mixtures can indeed throw things around, and the detection limit for impurities in NMR is also much higher.

1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol  is "AKA" MDP2P-ol, and is the overreduction product of 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanone "AKA" MDP2P. Both of which would be present from metabolism of MDxx in vivo and are effectively inert flavor compounds. I've had plenty of MDMA rhat had some MDP2Pol and ir was no better or worse than any other MDMA, once you account for the purity.



> MagicMDMA, you just accept that MehMDMA is what MDMA experience should be.



Are we still circulating this playground myth? MDMA is MDMA no matter how you slice it.


----------



## majk13

sekio said:


> Are we still circulating this playground myth? MDMA is MDMA no matter how you slice it.



No.  For a regular user like me there is magicmdma and mehmdma.  I don't care about the chemical composition.  It has to work well and it doesn't work, that's all, people who write that mdma is mdma have never had contact with either meh or magic.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Quick question to you chem experts:  From an inexperienced doing at home point of view, what's the better option for trying to purify:

1) Open column chromatography
2) Flash chromatography
3) Recrystallisation

Looking at videos and instructions online, (1) seems easiest as long as I'm patient and copy well.  The materials don't seem too costly or complicated.
(2) has the advantage that @vash445 has demonstrated a before and after NMR that went for odd to more or less reference MDMA
(3) seems a bit like a black art so maybe harder to get right (thanks for the run-down @vecktor in an earlier post).

It looks like the biggest issue with the open column chromatography is handling the silica and being patient.


----------



## G_Chem

sekio said:


> The reason I prefer GCMS to NMR is GCMS has a seperation step (the GC) prior to the detection (MS) which allows you to get clean spectra for the individual compounds that elute. A NMR machine does no seperation and, while you can absolutely use it to determine purity, it is not quite as elegant as a GC analysis. NMR of mixtures can indeed throw things around, and the detection limit for impurities in NMR is also much higher.
> 
> 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol  is "AKA" MDP2P-ol, and is the overreduction product of 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanone "AKA" MDP2P. Both of which would be present from metabolism of MDxx in vivo and are effectively inert flavor compounds. I've had plenty of MDMA rhat had some MDP2Pol and ir was no better or worse than any other MDMA, once you account for the purity.
> 
> 
> 
> Are we still circulating this playground myth? MDMA is MDMA no matter how you slice it.



I highly respect you Sekio but I have to disagree..  Mdp2p-ol very likely has effects when you look at other analogous compounds.  We also have multiple bioassays with product containing either of those two intermediates which show a lack of the positive effects.

Also I hate saying it but based on your other assessments of different substances that you may not have the best discernment between compounds.  In another post you claim dihydroheroin is the same as heroin when both my experience with close dihydro analogs as well as others Ive talked with who’ve tried the actual compound speaks differently. (Even the research states morphine can be discerned from dihydromorphine by subjects during their studies.) Again I don’t wanna start anything but I believe some people can feel the subtleties better than others.

Do you remember how much Mdp2p-ol you had in your product back then?

-GC


----------



## sekio

I've been doing MDMA since high school... once I had the ability to run tests I didn't see much more than 10-20% MDP2Pol on GC, when it did show. Some batches had very little and were >95% MDMA based on peak area.  Once or twice I also popped it into a polarimeter to check the optical rotation too: always consistently racemic.

... you do realize MDP2Pol is actually a metabolite of MDMA in humans? What activity is it supposed to have? As a non-nitrogenous compound it's gonna have poor PK, and I'm not really aware of any drugs that have similar structure and are also active at the levels present as an MDMA impurity (so maybe 10mg per dose?)

All I can say is, I have had remarkably consistent effects with MDMA. I'm happy to report my friends have had nothing but positive experiewnces when we dose together, too. I do try to keep things steeped in novelty though, my attitude has always been that complacency, boredom and repetition will doom _almost any drug experience_.  Believe me or don't, I could care less. I'm just sharing my experiences. (I don't think I have ever had a MDMA experience that could be called 'meh'.)

For purification, what I'd do is look at a TLC plate, if you can get MDMA eluting as a spot that's got a good Rf, flash chromatography is absolutely the way to go. It is effectively a pressure/vacuum-assisted solvent flow system, which has a much higher flow rate than gravity fed columns. All you really need is a sintered glass funnel, flash silica, and solvent.

But the real head scratcher is the presumed dichotomy between 'meh' and 'magic' MDMA: if you purify meh-MDMA do you get magic MDMA out? Or just pure 'meh'? If you made a mixture of 50% Meh and 50% magic, could you seperate them again? If so meh-MDMA is a distinct chemical entity, and therefore isn't MDMA. If not, then meh-MDMA and magic-MDMA have identical structures and yet differing effects, which is a contradiction in terms. Ergo, I don't buy there is a physical difference between the two.

Another thing to ruminate on: why didn't Shulgin or any of the early MDMA proponents mention any sort of different effect profiles or 'batches'? Exactly when did this become a problem?



> In another post you claim dihydroheroin is the same as heroin



Obviously they're not 100% identical, but I found that the average street user who was used to cut street heroin would be withdrawal-free when taking DHH, and it produced enough of the typical opioid effects that nobody asked too many questions. 

Are you familiar with the fairly recent study that showed career opioid addicts cannot distiinguish between hydromorphone and diamorphine at equipotent doses? It's totally contrary to what might seem to be the 'obvious' answer that the two drugs are wildly different. It kind of makes sense from a molecular physics point of view though: both drugs bind at the same site, producing the same effects at mu-opioid receptors.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

sekio said:


> For purification, what I'd do is look at a TLC plate, if you can get MDMA eluting as a spot that's got a good Rf, flash chromatography is absolutely the way to go. It is effectively a pressure/vacuum-assisted solvent flow system, which has a much higher flow rate than gravity fed columns. All you really need is a sintered glass funnel, flash silica, and solvent.
> 
> But the real head scratcher is the presumed dichotomy between 'meh' and 'magic' MDMA: if you purify meh-MDMA do you get magic MDMA out? Or just pure 'meh'? If you made a mixture of 50% Meh and 50% magic, could you seperate them again? If so meh-MDMA is a distinct chemical entity, and therefore isn't MDMA. If not, then meh-MDMA and magic-MDMA have identical structures and yet differing effects, which is a contradiction in terms. Ergo, I don't buy there is a physical difference between the two.
> 
> Another thing to ruminate on: why didn't Shulgin or any of the early MDMA proponents mention any sort of different effect profiles or 'batches'? Exactly when did this become a problem?



I have played with TLC, and although I was getting some results suggesting two different substances, it wasn't that clear.  I'll try and up my game on that and thanks for your thoughts on flash chromatography.

I think the assumption that everyone is going on is that meh is either: not mdma but fooling some testing services into reporting as MDMA, or MDMA + impurities which are either actively messing with the experience or simply taking up space and reducing the actual dose of MDMA per g of purchased material.  In other words, yes MDMA is MDMA, but the question is: is what is being sold as MDMA actually (and only) MDMA.

There have been a fair few journal papers posted here showing a lot of impurities in seized drugs.  Furthermore, @vash445 showed an NMR plot of a magic sample that was as close as I can tell to a reference mdma plot, versus a meh sample which had an additional strong peek that shouldn't be there.  Following separation via flash chromatography, the meh sample gave an NMR plot that was the same as a reference MDMA NMR plot.  I don't believe it has been consumed yet so the subjective test hasn't been done.  The assumption is that the meh sample was turned into magic by removing a contaminant.

As to when this meh stuff started appearing, I think people are saying somewhere from 2005-2008 but I may be wrong on that.


----------



## sekio

Oh, btw, if you need a reference for analysis methods: SWGDRUG is the place to check. They have a lovely MDMA monograph with TLC methods, GC, LC, etc.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

sekio said:


> Are we still circulating this playground myth? MDMA is MDMA no matter how you slice it.



Wow. 187 pages of this discussion is one hell of a playground myth.

I have over 25 years experience with this drug and find the subjective experience is more variable now than it's ever been.

Although I'm willing to concede that familiarity, tolerance, set & setting and unreasonable expectations can have a detrimental effect upon one's enjoyment of any drug, it doesn't explain the vastly different effects of the 'magic' and 'meh' varieties consistently reported in this thread.

These days, I take MDMA in the same set and setting everytime. Some batches have me flying for 5 - 6 hours loving life, the universe and everything, while others get me fucked up in a sedated (yet still enjoyable) way for 3 hours before I fall asleep.

These different effects are not dose dependent. A 'meh' experience cannot be transformed into a 'magical' one by simply adjusting the dose. They are like totally different drugs.

You're no doubt correct in saying that "MDMA is MDMA" and will produce reliably consistent results in a controlled setting. But when it's illicitly produced it's never likely to be totally pure so there are many other confounding variables at play. For all I know, the pure stuff might be shit and it's the impurities that give it the 'magic' in much the same way that street heroin is often preferred over pharmaceutical diamorphine,

However, I suspect we'll never find the real answer...


----------



## vash445

@sekio

SO whatever "it" is non acetone washable (my product was acetone washed before getting it and many others tried and acetone wash with no positive effect) , and my guess is it is most likely an amine effecting the experience. Also the purity of my meh sample was quite pure according to the person running the NMR/column we had to take 200-400mg to feel anything so def meh, so whatever it is alters dosages in sub mg amounts because 400mg should have us rolling tits


----------



## sekio

Oh, I missed another purification method. I recall Sasha distilled the MDMA freebase oil post-reductive-amination. If you get a nice fraction it should be effectively pure. No silica needed.



> But when it's illicitly produced it's never likely to be totally pure so there are many other confounding variables at play.



It's not as if the MDMA synthesis is particularly complex or novel. I know for a fact there have been multiple studies of methamphetamine synthesis byproducts, dimers, overreduction and the like as a means of inferring the production route of meth. I would assume MDMA has had the same investigation conducted. Why has nobody isolated this mysterious impurity that somehow manages to have a tenfold MINIMUM increase in potency, such that 10mg of impurity is sufficient to meh-ify 90mg of otherwise fine MDMA yet? 

Oh, and now that MDMA is advancing to clinical trials, what does NIH think of the magic issue? 

This is kind of comparable to the "impurities in blotter acid" debate. Call me a reductionist or whatever but I am of the belief that none of the possible isomers, precursors, or impurities in LSD come anywhere near to matching the potency of LSD-25, hence the major variable is just dosage.


----------



## indigoaura

@sekio Multiple studies have established that variations in synthesis methods result in different impurities. There is plenty of published data about how to identify synthesis method based on which impurities are noted in samples etc.

These articles discuss variations in synthesis methods, and how those variations produce different byproducts:

1. Sci-Hub | A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine. Forensic Science International, 224(1-3), 8–26 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040

2. Sci-Hub | Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities. Forensic Science International, 152(2-3), 175–184 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003

3. Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA prepared by different synthesis methods Comparison of impurity profiles 

There is also research that shows that some synthesis byproducts could have an impact on transporters and also on the effect of MDMA: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426 

The research that @vash445 and @vecktor have been completing has shown (so far) different NMR results for "magic" and "meh" samples. 

If your experience has honestly been that you have never had a "meh" experience, then you don't understand what all of us are talking about. Until you have an experience where a lab tested product provides a completely lackluster and uncharacteristic effect, you will not really understand. @Hilopsilo was commenting on this thread early on with a lot of doubt until he actually ran into a meh sample that produced meh results for all of his friends, who later rolled just fine on a different sample. Just because something has not occurred for you or in your circle, that does not mean it is not occurring elsewhere.

As for research...no one is focused on improving the recreational experience of MDMA users through research at this time. There are too many limitations on researching MDMA right now in order for something like that to occur. MAPS did comment in an interview that they found the process of producing MDMA to be more complex than they originally expected, and someone in the thread claimed MAPS incorporated a column into their official process (which would line up with whatever impurity seems to have shown up in the NMR result).


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

sekio said:


> Oh, I missed another purification method. I recall Sasha distilled the MDMA freebase oil post-reductive-amination. If you get a nice fraction it should be effectively pure. No silica needed.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not as if the MDMA synthesis is particularly complex or novel. I know for a fact there have been multiple studies of methamphetamine synthesis byproducts, dimers, overreduction and the like as a means of inferring the production route of meth. I would assume MDMA has had the same investigation conducted. Why has nobody isolated this mysterious impurity that somehow manages to have a tenfold MINIMUM increase in potency, such that 10mg of impurity is sufficient to meh-ify 90mg of otherwise fine MDMA yet?
> 
> Oh, and now that MDMA is advancing to clinical trials, what does NIH think of the magic issue?
> 
> This is kind of comparable to the "impurities in blotter acid" debate. Call me a reductionist or whatever but I am of the belief that none of the possible isomers, precursors, or impurities in LSD come anywhere near to matching the potency of LSD-25, hence the major variable is just dosage.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of Shulgin's product concocted in his garden shed 'laboratory'? Not exactly to pharmaceutical standards. 

I'm no Chemist and I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I guess it's analogous to the beer brewing industry where micro brewers can produce a far superior product to the highly standardised and stabilised big commercial brewers due to the wildcard of environmental factors.

As I said, I'm no chemist. But it stands to reason that trying to manipulate molecules at an atomic level using processes measured at a macroscopic level is subject to factors totally beyond one's control.

This problem will never be resolved until MDMA is legalised and production methods are standardised with quality control measures put in place to determine how to make the best possible product.


----------



## Phoenix_rising

If anything ecstasy pills in the UK seem to be be stronger and purer than ever.









						These are the pills going around this year with dangerous amounts of MDMA
					

Some contain three times the recommended dose




					thetab.com
				




Apart from the dodgy PMMA superman ones.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Phoenix_rising said:


> If anything ecstasy pills in the UK seem to be be stronger and purer than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the pills going around this year with dangerous amounts of MDMA
> 
> 
> Some contain three times the recommended dose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thetab.com



Again, that is part of the problem. They may be being tested as 'pure', but a lot of these high dosed pills contain sub standard product. It's as if the producers are trying to compensate for lack of quality with higher quantities. But as stated before, it's not as simple as that as the difference in effects is not dose dependent. If you've got a 'meh' pill, taking more will just be more 'meh'.


----------



## indigoaura

@Phoenix_rising Those results just further show that something is not right. People don't need 300 mg of MDMA. It is an overcompensation.


----------



## vash445

sekio said:


> I've been doing MDMA since high school... once I had the ability to run tests I didn't see much more than 10-20% MDP2Pol on GC, when it did show. Some batches had very little and were >95% MDMA based on peak area.  Once or twice I also popped it into a polarimeter to check the optical rotation too: always consistently racemic.
> 
> ... you do realize MDP2Pol is actually a metabolite of MDMA in humans? What activity is it supposed to have? As a non-nitrogenous compound it's gonna have poor PK, and I'm not really aware of any drugs that have similar structure and are also active at the levels present as an MDMA impurity (so maybe 10mg per dose?)
> 
> All I can say is, I have had remarkably consistent effects with MDMA. I'm happy to report my friends have had nothing but positive experiewnces when we dose together, too. I do try to keep things steeped in novelty though, my attitude has always been that complacency, boredom and repetition will doom _almost any drug experience_.  Believe me or don't, I could care less. I'm just sharing my experiences. (I don't think I have ever had a MDMA experience that could be called 'meh'.)
> 
> For purification, what I'd do is look at a TLC plate, if you can get MDMA eluting as a spot that's got a good Rf, flash chromatography is absolutely the way to go. It is effectively a pressure/vacuum-assisted solvent flow system, which has a much higher flow rate than gravity fed columns. All you really need is a sintered glass funnel, flash silica, and solvent.
> 
> But the real head scratcher is the presumed dichotomy between 'meh' and 'magic' MDMA: if you purify meh-MDMA do you get magic MDMA out? Or just pure 'meh'? If you made a mixture of 50% Meh and 50% magic, could you seperate them again? If so meh-MDMA is a distinct chemical entity, and therefore isn't MDMA. If not, then meh-MDMA and magic-MDMA have identical structures and yet differing effects, which is a contradiction in terms. Ergo, I don't buy there is a physical difference between the two.
> 
> Another thing to ruminate on: why didn't Shulgin or any of the early MDMA proponents mention any sort of different effect profiles or 'batches'? Exactly when did this become a problem?
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously they're not 100% identical, but I found that the average street user who was used to cut street heroin would be withdrawal-free when taking DHH, and it produced enough of the typical opioid effects that nobody asked too many questions.
> 
> Are you familiar with the fairly recent study that showed career opioid addicts cannot distiinguish between hydromorphone and diamorphine at equipotent doses? It's totally contrary to what might seem to be the 'obvious' answer that the two drugs are wildly different. It kind of makes sense from a molecular physics point of view though: both drugs bind at the same site, producing the same effects at mu-opioid receptors.



I'm pretty sure whatever it is,


sekio said:


> Oh, I missed another purification method. I recall Sasha distilled the MDMA freebase oil post-reductive-amination. If you get a nice fraction it should be effectively pure. No silica needed.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not as if the MDMA synthesis is particularly complex or novel. I know for a fact there have been multiple studies of methamphetamine synthesis byproducts, dimers, overreduction and the like as a means of inferring the production route of meth. I would assume MDMA has had the same investigation conducted. Why has nobody isolated this mysterious impurity that somehow manages to have a tenfold MINIMUM increase in potency, such that 10mg of impurity is sufficient to meh-ify 90mg of otherwise fine MDMA yet?
> 
> Oh, and now that MDMA is advancing to clinical trials, what does NIH think of the magic issue?
> 
> This is kind of comparable to the "impurities in blotter acid" debate. Call me a reductionist or whatever but I am of the belief that none of the possible isomers, precursors, or impurities in LSD come anywhere near to matching the potency of LSD-25, hence the major variable is just dosage.



I think the issue is , is that the freebase WASNT distilled. I'm not sure on my batch i'll ask, but i think alot of big manufactures are missing that step to bulk up the product


----------



## vash445

Phoenix_rising said:


> If anything ecstasy pills in the UK seem to be be stronger and purer than ever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the pills going around this year with dangerous amounts of MDMA
> 
> 
> Some contain three times the recommended dose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thetab.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apart from the dodgy PMMA superman ones.



The problem is MOST testing methods are missing whatever this MEH or this minor impurity is and you really need NMR to detect it what we seem with the 3-4 tests we have done. EVEN ON NMR ask a few people and IT looks like MDMA but it's funny


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Wow, the price of silica gel for chromatography  ouch


----------



## sekio

Pro tip: ask for free samples. Most chemical vendors deal with HUGE quantities, like how many 1,000-liter IBCs, or how many 50 gallon drums you want. It would be trivially easy to get a kilo or two of flash silica if you were good enough at bullshitting them. "Hi, I'm Joe Blowski with XYZ Designs LLC, we were interested in evaluating your FooBar 2000 silica for SOME_INDUSTRIAL_USAGE, possibly purchasing up to $LARGE_NUMBER a year. Would you be able to provide us with a sample to validate its performance? Signed, J. Blowski" ... the sales people will be focused on the potential future "money maker" transactions. Usually most companies are quite happy to throw generous "sample" quantities of most any cheap industrial chemical/material. Silica, Celite, plastic resins, metals, stabilizers, antioxidants, cellulose derivatives (filler/binder for pills), pharmaceutical ingredients and sometimes even reagents (if you're silver tongued or otherwise lucky) are all fair game assuming they're not super-precious or unusually hazardous. Just don't be too greedy - there are a multitude of chemical manufacturers around. If you are constantly asking FooCorp for free shit they will eventually decide you're not worth their time as a potential future customer.

Now, I'm not saying that this is moral, but hey: free shit. As a sometimes-bonus you might also end up receiving product catalogues (or you used to, in days of paper documents)., which make good monitor stands or doorstops.

BTW, Shulgin's little backyard lab was suprisingly well quipped, I seem to recall he had an IR spec and a GC at least.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

I now have access to some of the same product @indigoaura recently posted about and sent off for testing.
I'm paraphrasing so correct me if I'm wrong, but i believe the product showed 80% purity in the test, and had a strong come up, but that tolerance could have played a part in the way the roll felt. Not meh but not full magic.

It will be interesting to see 2 subjective opinions on the same product.
Next possible roll would be Valentine's Day (not sure if it will happen) which would be a 4.5 month break since my last experience with a different product.
Also since that roll I've been taking NAC, Lion's Mane and Mag Threonate, so I should be reset and ready to go.

I'll post up results after I get a chance to try it.


----------



## SlowandFastandSlow

Well all this is talk has made me wanna pick some mdma up for the first time in years.

If I do, I'll send some to wedinos unless anyone knows anywhere else I can send it to to get some kinda quantative analysis aswell? I'm in the UK.


----------



## indigoaura

@opposable-thumbs It was better than the rest of the stuff I have had access to. Classic come-up, pro-social, energetic, good time. It lacked the sensory enhancement that I like though, and lacked that state of total love and bliss. At least I wasn't cold and zoned out though, and I was not sick/strung out on the comedown. It felt clean. The week after proceeded in a more classic fashion as well, with two days of emo melancholy and then a great mood boost after that. Yes, tested as 80% by EC. They never sent the advanced documents they promised.


----------



## Phoenix_rising

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Again, that is part of the problem. They may be being tested as 'pure', but a lot of these high dosed pills contain sub standard product. It's as if the producers are trying to compensate for lack of quality with higher quantities. But as stated before, it's not as simple as that as the difference in effects is not dose dependent. If you've got a 'meh' pill, taking more will just be more 'meh'.



Maybe it's to do with not using safrole which was mostly used back in the day. I don't really know.

I have to say I did have some MDMA crystal not so long ago that was a light yellow/brown colour and it was proper mongy with no rush to it. Someone else told me that the pills we used to get in the early 00's probably had ephedrine or other amphetamines cut with them which gave that upper stimulant rush. If that was the case then I preferred the cut pills.


----------



## majk13

I started using mdma in 2003 and finished in 2007. I must admit that I took regularly every week. Magic mdma only happened a few times, at the beginning of 2003 then in 2005 and at the end of my adventure in 2007. (so the theory of tolerance falls)

What characterized magical mdma? for me it was a huge blow 40 minutes after management, eye wiggles, very sensitive touch, empathy and willingness to talk with strangers.

No matter what mood I had before taking it, the magic mdma always made me smile.
My friend always told me: " I love how much you are on mdma because this is the only moment when I see you smiling ..."

Meh mdma is going in the right direction but something is missing...


----------



## vash445

Phoenix_rising said:


> Maybe it's to do with not using safrole which was mostly used back in the day. I don't really know.
> 
> I have to say I did have some MDMA crystal not so long ago that was a light yellow/brown colour and it was proper mongy with no rush to it. Someone else told me that the pills we used to get in the early 00's probably had ephedrine or other amphetamines cut with them which gave that upper stimulant rush. If that was the case then I preferred the cut pills.


No because my MEH batch was safrole..


----------



## EntheoDjinn

Just an ironic diversion. Re *RyybsNarcs comment:*

_"Also, if you have never done real MagicMDMA, you just accept that MehMDMA is what MDMA experience should be.
Even MehMDMA produces pretty unique experience, so people are satisfied with it."_

I once asked a young person in a club what they were on, and they replied "some research Chemical".  I asked what it was like and they said it was "great - it's just like E but you  feel more anxious"

The dearth of proper E has resulted in novices believing that if you feel your consciousness altered, even in a bad way, it must be good because you're on drugs, and that must be good, mustn't it. 

Phew.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

EntheoDjinn said:


> Just an ironic diversion. Re *RyybsNarcs comment:*
> 
> _"Also, if you have never done real MagicMDMA, you just accept that MehMDMA is what MDMA experience should be.
> Even MehMDMA produces pretty unique experience, so people are satisfied with it."_
> 
> I once asked a young person in a club what they were on, and they replied "some research Chemical".  I asked what it was like and they said it was "great - it's just like E but you  feel more anxious"
> 
> The dearth of proper E has resulted in novices believing that if you feel your consciousness altered, even in a bad way, it must be good because you're on drugs, and that must be good, mustn't it.
> 
> Phew.



That pretty much sums it up. 

To a novice,  MDMA should be a life changing experience in much the same way as your first trip.

If you're just smashed, then it ain't right...


----------



## Phoenix_rising

It's a pretty sad state of affairs. Proper MDMA is a beautiful drug that should be pure to get the full benefits,not cut with shit or made improperly.

There must be chemists that are still making the real deal,its just all the greedy fucks that ruin what should be a wonderful thing.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

When ecstasy first became a thing over here (UK), I admit I was scared off for several years due to reports of kids dieing on their first use.

But when I eventually tried it, I found it to be the most beautiful substance I've ever encountered.


----------



## vash445

Phoenix_rising said:


> It's a pretty sad state of affairs. Proper MDMA is a beautiful drug that should be pure to get the full benefits,not cut with shit or made improperly.
> 
> There must be chemists that are still making the real deal,its just all the greedy fucks that ruin what should be a wonderful thing.


The thing is it probably is the real deal, just impure. And those mg impurities  block the high


----------



## bremkat

IMO on the dark web 'md' goes for as little as 8 pound, which obv sets alarm bells ringing, god knows whats coming out of china nowadays is what i say


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

bremkat said:


> god knows whats coming out of china nowadays is what i say



Fuckin bat flu by all accounts...


----------



## bremkat

in fucking deed my man


----------



## bremkat

i took pills for like 5 yhears solid back ten 12 years ago and i was smashed every time, now i just feel edgy, i know its prob goodbye serotonin but memories u no


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

bremkat said:


> i took pills for like 5 yhears solid back ten 12 years ago and i was smashed every time, now i just feel edgy, i know its prob goodbye serotonin but memories u no



I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

When faced with shit drugs, it's very easy to rationalise their shitness by assuming that you're too fucked to appreciate them. 

However, every once in a while you get some banging stuff and you realise that good drugs is good drugs, no matter what.


----------



## bremkat

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I've said this before, but I'll say it again.
> 
> When faced with shit drugs, it's very easy to rationalise their shitness by assuming that you're too fucked to appreciate them.
> 
> However, every once in a while you get some banging stuff and you realise that good drugs is good drugs, no matter what.


thats why i stick with coke, from my boy in SA simples


----------



## vash445

bremkat said:


> IMO on the dark web 'md' goes for as little as 8 pound, which obv sets alarm bells ringing, god knows whats coming out of china nowadays is what i say


PMK glyciate is $150 kilo non bulk soooo...


----------



## vash445

bremkat said:


> thats why i stick with coke, from my boy in SA simples


Have fun with your levamisole cut cocaine something like 85% of all cut cocaine is cut with levi... and acetone wash doesnt clean it only *Chloroform*









						The Truth About Britain's 'Flesh-Eating' Cocaine
					

Levamisole, a common cutting agent in cocaine, made the news recently for its apparent skin-destroying properties—but there's a lot more to the substance than that.




					www.vice.com
				











						The Terrifying Substances People Put in Cocaine
					

A researcher who specializes in the study of narcotics talks about purity, how and why cocaine gets diluted as it goes through the supply chain, and why addicts should worry about snorting dewormer.




					www.vice.com
				








						KILLER COKE EXPLAINED
					

VICE is the definitive guide to enlightening information.




					www.vice.com


----------



## bremkat

vash445 said:


> Have fun with your levamisole cut cocaine something like 85% of all cut cocaine is cut with levi... and acetone wash doesnt clean it only *Chloroform*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Truth About Britain's 'Flesh-Eating' Cocaine
> 
> 
> Levamisole, a common cutting agent in cocaine, made the news recently for its apparent skin-destroying properties—but there's a lot more to the substance than that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Terrifying Substances People Put in Cocaine
> 
> 
> A researcher who specializes in the study of narcotics talks about purity, how and why cocaine gets diluted as it goes through the supply chain, and why addicts should worry about snorting dewormer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KILLER COKE EXPLAINED
> 
> 
> VICE is the definitive guide to enlightening information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com


mate i pay 120 per .7, washed back for my mates that like it theres next to no wastage, been there done that, pay the premium get asd good as you can in the uk anyway pal


----------



## Limey

Around 2015 I acquired these pills which were tested as 100mg mda (confirmed mda) The effects were very blissful and euphoric. Everyone said they reminded them of old skool xtc. These were much better than the OG 200-250mg mdma orange Tesla’s which were the going around at the time. 
I did mda in 1992 (half a snowball) and hated it.Electric shock like rushes, vomiting etc.

Around the same time I acquired some mdma pills which were manufactured in America. They weren’t quite as strong as the euro presses, however they were definitely more social and had more euphoria/empathy and magic to them.

I’m sure there is still good mdma around, but you’re not going to find it in European pressed pills unfortunately.


----------



## bremkat

bremkat said:


> mate i pay 120 per .7, washed back for my mates that like it theres next to no wastage, been there done that, pay the premium get asd good as you can in the uk anyway pal


CORRECT PAL, THERES SHITE EVRYWHERE BUT ILL QUITE HAPPILY TAKE LEVISOMOLE CUT 80% COKE, FUCK ME THATS NOT TO SHABBY


----------



## vash445

SO my friend is working on getting his GC/MS cert so he doesn't break it. It's like a week long course or someshit. Anyways HPLC, GC/MS and NMR on trace contaminants coming soon


----------



## majk13

What conclusions so far?
Inpurities makes mdma work weaker or do we go to the theory that  inpurities make mdma magic?


----------



## vash445

majk13 said:


> What conclusions so far?
> Inpurities makes mdma work weaker or do we go to the theory that  inpurities make mdma magic?



Weaker much weaker


----------



## vash445

My friend got his cert for GC/MS and and he is sending some of the clean product to see if more active


----------



## LucidSDreamr

I haven't looked at this thread in a year and am just not interested enough to catch up on it anymore by reading it, since i can never do MDMA again and haven't for 3 years.  Its it still just a big circle jerk of scientific theories and e-heads comparing subjective mdma experiences, or has any real science performed yet to get closer to the answer? Thanks.


----------



## indigoaura

> I haven't looked at this thread in a year and am just not interested enough to catch up on it anymore by reading it, since i can never do MDMA again and haven't for 3 years. Its it still just big circle jerk of scientific theories and e-heads comparing subjective mdma experiences, or has any real science performed yet to get closer to the answer? Thanks.



If you must get it simplified for you: NMR analysis has been performed on multiple inadequate"meh" samples and one magic sample. NMR analysis showed that the meh samples had an additional peak on NMR analysis. Cleaning one of these samples with a silica column resulted in the removal of the additional peak. The contaminant that was separated is going to be analyzed, and the cleaned product will be tested. All courtesy of @vash445 

These NMR results seem to correlate with published research data that shows that certain production methods result in impurities that can block the effects of MDMA. (https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426)

The current theory, supported by NMR data and previously published research, is that there is a contaminant that is interfering in the full effects of MDMA. Traditional GCMS testing seems to be blind to the contaminant. 

So, overall, seems like the circle jerking e-heads are doing pretty well over here, thanks for asking.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

Thanks for the summary because i wasn't going to read through that last 100 pages of people talking about their bomb mdma from the 2000s to find the information you gave me. 

you say the meh samples had "an" additional peak. was this CNMR or HHNMR? All the byproducts in that paper would result in more than "one" additional peak.  did they do any 2D NMR to determine if that additional peak is actually connecteced to anything MDMA-like?


----------



## indigoaura

My summary was the super simple version. There were other variations on NMR, but the meh samples shared anomalies in 3.5 - 3.7ppm. If you want to know more, most of this info is recent in the thread (including links to the NMR graphs themselves). Vash just posted the first NMR result back in November. Specific questions re: methodology would be better answered by @vash445 or @vecktor (who has been analyzing the NMR results). Vash previously indicated he ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI. There are other tests in the works right now, so we are in a holding pattern while we wait for other info.

Here is one of the meh results: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14725832
Also, check this comment from @ThreePointCircle https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14726147

@vash445 Could you do a summary post with links to all the NMR results? 

Also, no offense, but eheads talking about bomb MDMA from back in the day is what spawned and pushed this conversation to the point it is at. I get that you don't want to dig through the thread, but we are where we are because people were observant and analytical about variations they were noticing.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

indigoaura said:


> My summary was the super simple version. There were other variations on NMR, but the meh samples shared anomalies in 3.5 - 3.7ppm. If you want to know more, most of this info is recent in the thread (including links to the NMR graphs themselves). Vash just posted the first NMR result back in November. Specific questions re: methodology would be better answered by @vash445 or @vecktor (who has been analyzing the NMR results). Vash previously indicated he ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI. There are other tests in the works right now, so we are in a holding pattern while we wait for other info.
> 
> Here is one of the meh results: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14725832
> Also, check this comment from @ThreePointCircle https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14726147
> 
> @vash445 Could you do a summary post with links to all the NMR results?
> 
> Also, no offense, but eheads talking about bomb MDMA from back in the day is what spawned and pushed this conversation to the point it is at. I get that you don't want to dig through the thread, but we are where we are because people were observant and analytical about variations they were noticing.



assuming that HNMR was taken in CDCl3 and the chemical shift properly aligned; the giant peak at 3.8 looks like dimethylcarbonate (it looks like a singlet but hard to tell in that image).   Not hard to imagine dimethylcarbonate forming from CO2 and methanol during synthesis.  Also it wouldn't come off super easily under vaccuum.   Did the CNMR spectra of the same sample show peaks at 156 and 55?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

LucidSDreamr said:


> Did the CNMR spectra of the same sample show peaks at 156 and 55?



Not as far as I can tell.  Basically, on the magic sample there was a big peak at approx 45.  On the meh sample that got cleaned, there was a big peak at 40 pre-cleaning, which moved to 45 post-cleaning.

On all three there was a little peak at approx 56, but it didn't really stand out from the crowd.  And nothing at 156.


----------



## LucidSDreamr

ThreePointCircle said:


> Not as far as I can tell.  Basically, on the magic sample there was a big peak at approx 45.  On the meh sample that got cleaned, there was a big peak at 40 pre-cleaning, which moved to 45 post-cleaning.
> 
> On all three there was a little peak at approx 56, but it didn't really stand out from the crowd.  And nothing at 156.




not sure what it could be if it only has 1 carbon peak and one hydrogen peak, which is what seems to be the case.  Something small and with symmetry.  I don't think its it based on the chemical shifts, but think along the lines of trimethylamine oxide as a starting point for hypothesis of what it could be


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 Is there any way to get Drugs Data some of the sample of mehDMA that you cleaned? They are very interested in reviewing it.



> If you have a sample that you think has two substances in it that you
> can clean out to get clean MDMA, can we get a fully homogenized 10-20mg
> of the material to look at?
> 
> You said that someone saw only MDMA in a GC/MS analysis of the sample:
> "These sub-par samples looked like MDMA on GCMS before he ran the NMR"
> 
> but how good are they at GC? Are they certain they couldn't see
> anything in GC? Did they try multiple solvents, pressures, and
> temperatures?
> 
> If there's no way to see the "other chemical" using GC, then our lab
> can't help. But that would be some unknown compound that inhibits liver
> or inhibits neuronal activity. It would, of course, be very interesting
> if it were possible to actually demonstrate its existence.
> 
> So, if there's some of that available, we'd love to see any output and
> some fully homogenized (so we don't get a sample that doesn't contain
> any of the unknown compound). 10-20mg would be great.
> 
> earth


----------



## vash445

LucidSDreamr said:


> not sure what it could be if it only has 1 carbon peak and one hydrogen peak, which is what seems to be the case.  Something small and with symmetry.  I don't think its it based on the chemical shifts, but think along the lines of trimethylamine oxide as a starting point for hypothesis of what it could be



The file ending ...207.pdf is confirmed magic, and the file ending ...579.pdf is confirmed meh.


On page 37 onwards there are reference 1H NMR plots.

The magic sample (...207.pdf) seems to match the reference MDMA HCL in D2O (page 45)
The meh sample ( ...579.pdf) appears be closest to MMDA base in CDCl3 (page 44). Not a super close match but I think its the best on my initial look
The other meh sample (...312.png) perhaps is also closest to MMDA but even less good a fit

So the big differences in the <7ppm range are: magic - peak around 4.87 (missing integration value?) that is not present in the meh sample. meh - big peak around 3.70 that is missing from the magic sample.


----------



## vash445

LucidSDreamr said:


> not sure what it could be if it only has 1 carbon peak and one hydrogen peak, which is what seems to be the case.  Something small and with symmetry.  I don't think its it based on the chemical shifts, but think along the lines of trimethylamine oxide as a starting point for hypothesis of what it could be



first NMR batch "PRIVATE lab"  USA made from safrole, Benz MEOH wacker with Al/Hg reduction. This batch was test on a MDMA/drug virgin who only prior drug use was garbage cocaine.

around here the topic gets juicy  and the circle jerking where noone has a real clue





						What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
					






					www.bluelight.org
				




MDMA NMR with extended 13c on this private batch


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @vash445 Is there any way to get Drugs Data some of the sample of mehDMA that you cleaned? They are very interested in reviewing it.
> 
> They want tainted or untained meh? UNtainted might be hard to get ahold of. :/
> 
> I could maybe get some solvent but that is about it


----------



## vash445

LucidSDreamr said:


> not sure what it could be if it only has 1 carbon peak and one hydrogen peak, which is what seems to be the case.  Something small and with symmetry.  I don't think its it based on the chemical shifts, but think along the lines of trimethylamine oxide as a starting point for hypothesis of what it could be



a 2D has not be ran. He was waiting for someone to ask for it I think he said. He felt COSY HMNR etc was better he said. Whatever IT is probably an amine because an acetone wash wont clean it. A wash was done on mine and many other batches

PS thank you for helping us and diving right in. We are still waiting for @vecktor  report on magic and meh #2 but he is probably still busy


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 is an analysis of the contaminant still forthcoming? That will be the real interesting info...


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @vash445 is an analysis of the contaminant still forthcoming? That will be the real interesting info...



Yes my friend has just been SUPPPPPER busy with school/work. SO I don't want to press too hard until another month passes.


----------



## Le Junk

Quick question without having to search. Where did the “magic” sample come from? And how was it verified to be an actual “magic” sample?


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Wizards looked it over.
Gave it the thumbs up.


----------



## vash445

Le Junk said:


> Quick question without having to search. Where did the “magic” sample come from? And how was it verified to be an actual “magic” sample?



Magic sample came from a burning man connect. She only has fire product and EVERYONE AGREES its the tits NMR matches mdma... i wont touch any MDMA except hers now  well except that dirty sample we cleaned up


----------



## vash445

Le Junk said:


> Quick question without having to search. Where did the “magic” sample come from? And how was it verified to be an actual “magic” sample?



Where did the “magic” sample come from

Burning man connections. Non darknet.

And how was it verified to be an actual “magic” sample

Multiple OG people 30-40YO buy her product and say it's  the tits. Like its the old school mdma.. nmr seems to match magic sample vs meh samples.


----------



## indigoaura

Le Junk said:


> Quick question without having to search. Where did the “magic” sample come from? And how was it verified to be an actual “magic” sample?



Welcome back!!!


----------



## vash445

@indigoaura @G_Chem @majk13 @ThreePointCircle  and a few others have been asking for a bitcoin and monero donation address. We have been making progress  with these NMR tests etc. and these tests/solvents aren't necessarily free. We hope to have the containment report sometime soon when my friend has some free time. But his life takes precedence over this project.

Monero donations

48FsDkf1ENqDAgYHBHvx1AR9xzg41At41DDaj7k7fcqXNjm2Q1LLJmW3CXuhzFf8WTKUpDq5wzrNYMQJD3H46GWZVNxWJe6


Legacy bitcoin
16uZFfo6m5YaqPApndRadsDceAxVm5xSk5

Default
bc1qrt2ph8a6ewzsn3m25d4pj7zm70dvundvn9ruk5

Compatibility
32WD1wztZp59ABVkX2nqLWHXmzGJKahZwj

By default, Coinomi will show you native SegWit addresses, the most efficient type. Those start with "bc1" for Bitcoin. If you are using any service that doesn't yet support sending coins to it, you can select the "compatibility" type which is supported by most services. If necessary, you can also create legacy addresses. Any of the 3 addresses can be used freely. Read the examples below for Bitcoin addresses:


----------



## majk13

Which of these addresses is for normal bitcoin?


----------



## Anthem Acid

Don't know if this is exactly the place for this, but I guess it is semi-relevant.

I've done "MDMA" twice before yesterday. First time was in 2012-ish and it was X. Pretty sure it was bunk. None of us that did felt anything more than a mild buzz. Second time was about 2 years ago. Feel comfortable saying that it was either full on Meth, or heavily cut with Meth. I've since done Meth, and the feeling was remarkably similar.

I finally put my big boy pants on and got some from the source a couple weeks back. Unfortunately, i didn't have a scale on me. But I had weighed out about 110mg's the day before, so I tried my best to replicate what that looked like and eyeballed. My guess is I did no less than 80mg and no more than 150mg. But who really knows? Anyway, I put it in some sprite and for some god damn reason, I didn't crush the crystals up before dropping in the sprite. So, they just stayed whole. Obviously. So I had to do it the hardway and swallow those things whole. I read that they are tasteless. These were not. They tasted bad. I started to feel about 30 minutes later, and it wasn't really big on the feeling. I'm not huge on feeling "fucked up", as in, stoned. And I felt kind of stoned. I didn't want to stand up or sit up, I was just slouched on the couch, thinking that if this gets any stronger, it really ain't gonna be my cup. And then, at the snap of a finger, all that went away. It was fucking crazy. I head felt lighter (in a good way), I felt fresher, I felt clean, I just felt good as hell. A good way to describe it would be "airy". I was definitely speedy, but not a meth speedy. I didn't have waves of meth electricity rushing through my body like the other "molly" I did a couple years back and the meth I've done a couple times since then. I just felt enhanced. Like how I'd imagine you'd feel in Heaven. But I was definitely high. It didn't feel like a nootropic. I would not have wanted to be in church, or talk to a cop. I was way under the influence. And I felt like that for about 6-ish hours (really, more like 5). I redosed probably (remember, no scale) 40-70mg's 2 hours in and then (wastefully) probably around 80mg's about 6 hours in. That was a real waste, because i was already coming down super hard, and I fell asleep about an hour after that 2nd redose. Shame.

This morning i feel pretty good. I felt like I did drugs yesterday, but i don't feel depressed and i don't have a headache. I feel solid. I've read lots of trip reports on molly, but it's insane how much they really vary. Does it sound like I got some quality product? If this isn't the right thread for this post, feel free to move or remove it, mods.

Cheers, gang.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

Sounds like the real deal! Did you have extreme mydriasis, tactile & music enhancement?


----------



## Buzz Lightbeer

Did some very shitty MDMA (pill) some time ago.

Very heavy body feel, kinda sedating, not euphoric in any way, mongy and you'd just like to close your eyes, not emotional or empathogenic at all, fucking hated it.
I have found that there are 'grades' in shittyness, I've had crystal that came up very hard and fast and went like nowhere, and pills like above.


----------



## Anthem Acid

PsychedelicSummer said:


> Sounds like the real deal! Did you have extreme mydriasis, tactile & music enhancement?



Didn't check my eyes, so I don't know about that. But, yeah, stuff felt nice. Puling on the skin on my arm and face felt cool as hell and i sadly didn't listen to any music on the peak. At least not good music. We we're just hanging out, talking our asses off. Great time, though.

That's great to hear that I got some good stuff. It was great, definitely among my favorite drugs i've ever done. I'd say it felt like Meth if Meth felt clean and pure and not like, well, meth. Euphoria through the roof.


----------



## psy997

More MehDMA last night in Central America. Was assured it had been personally tested and magic. In fact, the source seemed to be enjoying himself, though no-one else that took it was loved up and as they should be, despite most of them saying they felt good. Once again, I am reminded that I can trust no-one regarding MDMA unless they are aware of the differences between MehDMA and MagicDMA, eg. what's actually good product.

I'm really starting to think people just don't fucking know? I don't see how it's possible, but, eh, people live in delusion and lies.

Ugh. So fucking frustrating.

EDIT: My buddy just got home, who'd just done acid, we talked about how the night went, and he said it was obvious to him that something with the MDMA was off considering how most people were doing more and more all night and no-one was loved up and ecstatic. He's never heard of MehDMA before. Ah, and I had done a quarter tab of acid about 3-4 hours before dosing the MDMA, and felt 100x better on just the acid than after the MDMA hit, eg. more loving, more energetic, more subtle energy attuned, actually wanting to dance, talk, etc.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> @indigoaura @G_Chem @majk13 @ThreePointCircle  and a few others have been asking for a bitcoin and monero donation address.



I've sent a donation. Thanks for all the data.


----------



## indigoaura

> Ah, and I had done a quarter tab of acid about 3-4 hours before dosing the MDMA, and felt 100x better on just the acid than after the MDMA hit, eg. more loving, more energetic, more subtle energy attuned, actually wanting to dance, talk, etc.



That has happened to me. You are feeling great on LSD or 2CB or whatever, and then the mehDMA comes in and just ruins it.


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> I've sent a donation. Thanks for all the data.



Thank you for the xmr. My friend greatly appreicates it. I'm glad the nmr is finding something the GC/ms is missing and a pattern is appearing


----------



## vash445

majk13 said:


> Which of these addresses is for normal bitcoin?



By default, Coinomi will show you native SegWit addresses, the most efficient type. Those start with "bc1" for Bitcoin. If you are using any service that doesn't yet support sending coins to it, you can select the "compatibility" type which is supported by most services. If necessary, you can also create legacy addresses. Any of the 3 addresses can be used freely. The answer appears to be default thou any of the 3 should work

Default
bc1qrt2ph8a6ewzsn3m25d4pj7zm70dvundvn9ruk5

Sry haven't  used bitcoin since the whole segwit debate so im not familiar  with BUTTCOIN XD. As we say SHUM. Should have used monero


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 Crypto Currency is new to me. I usually have other people assist with DW stuff. As soon as I figure out how, I will be making a donation. Reading about monero now.


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> @vash445 Crypto Currency is new to me. I usually have other people assist with DW stuff. As soon as I figure out how, I will be making a donation. Reading about monero now.


No worries if you have any questions feel free to ask. Monero is the most private. And you usually have to buy Bitcoin to get monero. Thou there are other ways


----------



## S.J.B.

vash445 said:


> The file ending ...207.pdf is confirmed magic, and the file ending ...579.pdf is confirmed meh.
> 
> 
> On page 37 onwards there are reference 1H NMR plots.
> 
> The magic sample (...207.pdf) seems to match the reference MDMA HCL in D2O (page 45)
> The meh sample ( ...579.pdf) appears be closest to MMDA base in CDCl3 (page 44). Not a super close match but I think its the best on my initial look
> The other meh sample (...312.png) perhaps is also closest to MMDA but even less good a fit
> 
> So the big differences in the <7ppm range are: magic - peak around 4.87 (missing integration value?) that is not present in the meh sample. meh - big peak around 3.70 that is missing from the magic sample.


Can you clarify what NMR solvents were used? It appears that the "magic" sample was run in MeOH-_d4_, but the solvent used for the "meh" sample isn't clear due to overlaps. Is it DMSO-_d6_?

The peak at 4.87 in 207.pdf is water, showing up where it characteristically does in MeOH-_d4_. I have an idea that the peak at 3.70 in 579.pdf is also just water (in combination with the exchangeable protons on the nitrogen) but that would be clearer if I knew the solvent it was run in. My apologies if this was posted earlier in the thread.

In any case they appear to be the same compound, with 207.pdf looking a little more pure.

A head-to-head comparison would be much easier if they were thoroughly dried and run in the same NMR solvent.

Also, if whoever you got this from has the FID files, those could be helpful, or the full data .zip files in Bruker or Varian format.


----------



## geekgrl

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!


I'm so jealous of your connection.... Sounds awesome. Deffo gonna be looking for some white fluffy MD. I've never come across any like that, but completely agree about the pills.


----------



## PlayHard

I dont suppose anyone saved my old photos I put up back when I was active in this thread? Host has removed/expired. I also lost all my photos recently after my phone broke :/ - not just crystal photos but everything I've ever taken a photo of via that phone - now have a better camera etc but could do with the photos back for keep sake.


----------



## vash445

S.J.B. said:


> Can you clarify what NMR solvents were used? It appears that the "magic" sample was run in MeOH-_d3_, but the solvent used for the "meh" sample isn't clear due to overlaps. Is it DMSO-_d6_?
> 
> The peak at 4.87 in 207.pdf is water, showing up where it characteristically does in MeOH-_d3_. I have an idea that the peak at 3.70 in 579.pdf is also just water (in combination with the exchangeable protons on the nitrogen) but that would be clearer if I knew the solvent it was run in. My apologies if this was posted earlier in the thread.
> 
> In any case they appear to be the same compound, with 207.pdf looking a little more pure.
> 
> A head-to-head comparison would be much easier if they were thoroughly dried and run in the same NMR solvent.
> 
> Also, if whoever you got this from has the .fid files, those could be helpful, or the full data .zip files in Bruker or Varian format.


Ive asked.. until then maybe @ThreePointCircle or @vecktor can help in the mean time with that question


----------



## majk13

I sent a donation.

I invite all visitors to this topic to send as much as they can to vash. The guy does a great job, and maybe thanks to him the mdma quality will eventually improve.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

S.J.B. said:


> The peak at 4.87 in 207.pdf is water, showing up where it characteristically does in MeOH-_d3_. I have an idea that the peak at 3.70 in 579.pdf is also just water (in combination with the exchangeable protons on the nitrogen) but that would be clearer if I knew the solvent it was run in. My apologies if this was posted earlier in the thread.





vash445 said:


> Ive asked.. until then maybe @ThreePointCircle or @vecktor can help in the mean time with that question



Way beyond my level I'm afraid.  I get the water peak at 4.87 but I have no clue about the 3.70.


----------



## indigoaura

> Can you clarify what NMR solvents were used? It appears that the "magic" sample was run in MeOH-_d3_, but the solvent used for the "meh" sample isn't clear due to overlaps. Is it DMSO-_d6_?



Why would the same analyst use two different solvents when trying to compare samples? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose?


----------



## vash445

majk13 said:


> I sent a donation.
> 
> I invite all visitors to this topic to send as much as they can to vash. The guy does a great job, and maybe thanks to him the mdma quality will eventually improve.



Thank you much obliged.


----------



## S.J.B.

vash445 said:


> first NMR batch "PRIVATE lab"  USA made from safrole, Benz MEOH wacker with Al/Hg reduction. This batch was test on a MDMA/drug virgin who only prior drug use was garbage cocaine.
> 
> around here the topic gets juicy  and the circle jerking where noone has a real clue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.bluelight.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MDMA NMR with extended 13c on this private batch


Okay, just got a chance to look at this one. It is the same compound as the other two, with what looks to be acetone as an impurity. It is clearly in DMSO-_d6_, and comparing it to the spectrum from 579.pdf indicates to me that 579.pdf was indeed run in DMSO-_d6_ as well. The large peak at 3.70 in 579.pdf, then, is almost certainly water. It looks like there's a bit of acetone in 579.pdf, as well, and a quartet around 3.35 that is consistent with diethyl ether (the splitting, 7.0 Hz, is exactly what would be expected, and the methyl peak would be mostly hidden under MDMA's alpha-methyl peak). Other than that, there don't seem to be any significant impurities, at least ones that aren't buried under other peaks.


----------



## vash445

S.J.B. said:


> Can you clarify what NMR solvents were used? It appears that the "magic" sample was run in MeOH-_d3_, but the solvent used for the "meh" sample isn't clear due to overlaps. Is it DMSO-_d6_?
> 
> The peak at 4.87 in 207.pdf is water, showing up where it characteristically does in MeOH-_d3_. I have an idea that the peak at 3.70 in 579.pdf is also just water (in combination with the exchangeable protons on the nitrogen) but that would be clearer if I knew the solvent it was run in. My apologies if this was posted earlier in the thread.
> 
> In any case they appear to be the same compound, with 207.pdf looking a little more pure.
> 
> A head-to-head comparison would be much easier if they were thoroughly dried and run in the same NMR solvent.
> 
> Also, if whoever you got this from has the FID files, those could be helpful, or the full data .zip files in Bruker or Varian format.


The 4.97 one is MeOD-d4 not d1 and the other is DMSO and that can be checked by 2.5 and 3.3 peaks. If their masked the you won't see any other solvent peaks. The only other one really used is CDCl3 at 7.26


----------



## S.J.B.

vash445 said:


> The 4.97 one is MeOD-d4 not d1 and the other is DMSO and that can be checked by 2.5 and 3.3 peaks. If their masked the you won't see any other solvent peaks. The only other one really used is CDCl3 at 7.26


Thanks, I meant -_d4_ not -_d3_, sorry about that.


----------



## vash445

S.J.B. said:


> Thanks, I meant -_d4_ not -_d3_, sorry about that.


No worries glad to help


----------



## Le Junk

indigoaura said:


> Welcome back!!!



Thanks man!  I’ve been super busy but I’m so glad to see some major progress is actually happening here. This is becoming a movement!


----------



## Le Junk

vash445 said:


> Where did the “magic” sample come from
> 
> Burning man connections. Non darknet.
> 
> And how was it verified to be an actual “magic” sample
> 
> Multiple OG people 30-40YO buy her product and say it's  the tits. Like its the old school mdma.. nmr seems to match magic sample vs meh samples.



Excellent!


----------



## Le Junk

Anthem Acid said:


> Don't know if this is exactly the place for this, but I guess it is semi-relevant.
> 
> I've done "MDMA" twice before yesterday. First time was in 2012-ish and it was X. Pretty sure it was bunk. None of us that did felt anything more than a mild buzz. Second time was about 2 years ago. Feel comfortable saying that it was either full on Meth, or heavily cut with Meth. I've since done Meth, and the feeling was remarkably similar.
> 
> I finally put my big boy pants on and got some from the source a couple weeks back. Unfortunately, i didn't have a scale on me. But I had weighed out about 110mg's the day before, so I tried my best to replicate what that looked like and eyeballed. My guess is I did no less than 80mg and no more than 150mg. But who really knows? Anyway, I put it in some sprite and for some god damn reason, I didn't crush the crystals up before dropping in the sprite. So, they just stayed whole. Obviously. So I had to do it the hardway and swallow those things whole. I read that they are tasteless. These were not. They tasted bad. I started to feel about 30 minutes later, and it wasn't really big on the feeling. I'm not huge on feeling "fucked up", as in, stoned. And I felt kind of stoned. I didn't want to stand up or sit up, I was just slouched on the couch, thinking that if this gets any stronger, it really ain't gonna be my cup. And then, at the snap of a finger, all that went away. It was fucking crazy. I head felt lighter (in a good way), I felt fresher, I felt clean, I just felt good as hell. A good way to describe it would be "airy". I was definitely speedy, but not a meth speedy. I didn't have waves of meth electricity rushing through my body like the other "molly" I did a couple years back and the meth I've done a couple times since then. I just felt enhanced. Like how I'd imagine you'd feel in Heaven. But I was definitely high. It didn't feel like a nootropic. I would not have wanted to be in church, or talk to a cop. I was way under the influence. And I felt like that for about 6-ish hours (really, more like 5). I redosed probably (remember, no scale) 40-70mg's 2 hours in and then (wastefully) probably around 80mg's about 6 hours in. That was a real waste, because i was already coming down super hard, and I fell asleep about an hour after that 2nd redose. Shame.
> 
> This morning i feel pretty good. I felt like I did drugs yesterday, but i don't feel depressed and i don't have a headache. I feel solid. I've read lots of trip reports on molly, but it's insane how much they really vary. Does it sound like I got some quality product? If this isn't the right thread for this post, feel free to move or remove it, mods.
> 
> Cheers, gang.



Sounds like the real deal to me. To bad you didn’t happen to notice your pupils. Only the magic MDMA will dilate your pupils all the way to the outer edge leaving only a microscopic sliver of eye color around the very edge. There are no exceptions with this. It is not debatable and is a true marker of the real thing versus this junk they call molly nowadays. If your pupils are not completely dilated to the very very edge, you are doing junk, period, the end.  Glad you had a great time. You should feel very special because getting actual magic MDMA nowadays is like winning the lottery. Very rare.


----------



## vash445

Should have 2D nmr today or tomorrow


----------



## vash445

_My massage therapist says he turned meh into magic by boofing it...

anyone done it... Or iv? 

maybe drugsdata/Earth is right and it's a liver enzymes_


----------



## SuicideBoyBitch666

I've only done mdma twice in my life. Out of the same sack tho. I bought a gram of what I was under the impression was glass. I had a high tolerance for speed at that time and was shooting half grams. Well unbeknownst to me my dealer gave me the wrong shit and I ended up shooting a half gram of MDMA... It legit felt like I was having an 8 hour long orgasm. Minus the mess lol. All I could do is giggle like a little bitch for about an hour and a half and shake like a sonofabitch. Definitely the most intense high/rush I've ever experienced. So the next day I weighed what I had left (.49) and decided, fuck it, and shot the rest only to have the same experience all over again


----------



## SuicideBoyBitch666

I've only done mdma twice in my life. Out of the same sack tho. I bought a gram of what I was under the impression was glass. I had a high tolerance for speed at that time and was shooting half grams. Well unbeknownst to me my dealer gave me the wrong shit and I ended up shooting a half gram of MDMA... It legit felt like I was having an 8 hour long orgasm. Minus the mess lol. All I could do is giggle like a little bitch for about an hour and a half and shake like a sonofabitch. Definitely the most intense high/rush I've ever experienced. So the next day I weighed what I had left (.49) and decided, fuck it, and shot the rest only to have the same experience all over again


vash445 said:


> _My massage therapist says he turned meh into magic by boofing it...
> 
> anyone done it... Or iv?
> 
> maybe drugsdata/Earth is right and it's a liver enzymes_


----------



## vash445

SuicideBoyBitch666 said:


> I've only done mdma twice in my life. Out of the same sack tho. I bought a gram of what I was under the impression was glass. I had a high tolerance for speed at that time and was shooting half grams. Well unbeknownst to me my dealer gave me the wrong shit and I ended up shooting a half gram of MDMA... It legit felt like I was having an 8 hour long orgasm. Minus the mess lol. All I could do is giggle like a little bitch for about an hour and a half and shake like a sonofabitch. Definitely the most intense high/rush I've ever experienced. So the next day I weighed what I had left (.49) and decided, fuck it, and shot the rest only to have the same experience all over again


Doesnt answer my question but thank you


----------



## SuicideBoyBitch666

I've only done mdma twice in my life. Out of the same sack tho. I bought a gram of what I was under the impression was glass. I had a high tolerance for speed at that time and was shooting half grams. Well unbeknownst to me my dealer gave me the wrong shit and I ended up shooting a half gram of MDMA... It legit felt like I was having an 8 hour long orgasm. Minus the mess lol. All I could do is giggle like a little bitch for about an hour and a half and shake like a sonofabitch. Definitely the most intense high/rush I've ever experienced. So the next day I weighed what I had left (.49) and decided, fuck it, and shot the rest only to have the same experience all over again


vash445 said:


> _My massage therapist says he turned meh into magic by boofing it...
> 
> anyone done it... Or iv?
> 
> maybe drugsdata/Earth is right and it's a liver enzymes_


You asked about iv


vash445 said:


> Doesnt answer my question but thank you


You asked about iv MDMA use, no?


----------



## vash445

SuicideBoyBitch666 said:


> I've only done mdma twice in my life. Out of the same sack tho. I bought a gram of what I was under the impression was glass. I had a high tolerance for speed at that time and was shooting half grams. Well unbeknownst to me my dealer gave me the wrong shit and I ended up shooting a half gram of MDMA... It legit felt like I was having an 8 hour long orgasm. Minus the mess lol. All I could do is giggle like a little bitch for about an hour and a half and shake like a sonofabitch. Definitely the most intense high/rush I've ever experienced. So the next day I weighed what I had left (.49) and decided, fuck it, and shot the rest only to have the same experience all over again
> 
> You asked about iv
> 
> You asked about iv MDMA use, no?


Sadly we need like 150mg or less sadly. 80mg for iv really of known meh


----------



## vash445

@LucidSDreamr @vecktor @S.J.B.
5 and 6 should be duplicates. This is 2D NMR


----------



## majk13

I had liver enzyme tests and everything was ok so I don't think so.  What about sniffing mdma?  I won't make an injection ...


----------



## vash445

majk13 said:


> I had liver enzyme tests and everything was ok so I don't think so.  What about sniffing mdma?  I won't make an injection ...


We are saying if meh, the impurities cause a liver enzyme issue..

Try the boof vs needles. Sniff you end up eating most of it


----------



## S.J.B.

vash445 said:


> @LucidSDreamr @vecktor @S.J.B.
> 5 and 6 should be duplicates. This is 2D NMR


This spectrum is very clean, in MeOH-_d4_. No significant impurities. Spectrum shows the same compound as 207.pdf, 579.pdf, and MDMAnmr.pdf, all of which are consistent with MDMA. The COSY and HMQC are consistent with MDMA. The NOESY is of poor quality and doesn't show anything useful, but in any case the information it would give would be more or less redundant in as simple a molecule as MDMA once you have a COSY and HMQC/HSQC. An HMBC (another 2D experiment which shows which carbons are a few bonds away from a given proton) would give more-conclusive structural information. At this point all the NMR evidence points towards this being MDMA.


----------



## CantTrustEM

I had "the magic" from a source local to St. Louis, was Dutch Imported, about a year ago, and the high was anything short of absolutely incredible.

And yes my pupils were black holes surrounded by the ever so thin line of blue shining through.

I just received some white, 80% tested pure MDMA purple Marquis, all white / clear, no brown or sass tint to it.

Can't say the experience was anything near that of the St Louis MDMA, definitely "junk".

And it was junk even with a dark purple Marquis .. containing high amounts of MDMA.. but nonetheless some garbage ingredient overriding said magic.


----------



## Simosom

For meh mdma It is easy to confuse even very experience users like indigoaura or g_chem, sometime you can have a great time on mehdma too. 
If you go to the reddit mdma forum, all users are claiming full happines, serotonin leak, max pupils dilated. 
Of course most of the people dont know difference, they have never seen pupils completely dilated, or someone under the influence of so called magic mdma. 
Let's be carefull here and dont easy accept anyone claiming their mdma as magic, especially "my trusted friend frieds had a great time". 
I can guarantee that is impossible to find magic mdma in dutch or england nowadays. 
There is no logic for someone to produce it when you can buy very well selling product for  couple of euros and make profit from it. 
For me, most important difference is duration, everything else can be subjective.


----------



## vash445

S.J.B. said:


> This spectrum is very clean, in MeOH-_d4_. No significant impurities. Spectrum shows the same compound as 207.pdf, 579.pdf, and MDMAnmr.pdf, all of which are consistent with MDMA. The COSY and HMQC are consistent with MDMA. The NOESY is of poor quality and doesn't show anything useful, but in any case the information it would give would be more or less redundant in as simple a molecule as MDMA once you have a COSY and HMQC/HSQC. An HMBC (another 2D experiment which shows which carbons are a few bonds away from a given proton) would give more-conclusive structural information. At this point all the NMR evidence points towards this being MDMA.


Will ask for HMBC because  this is def meh product


----------



## babooon87

vash445 said:


> _My massage therapist says he turned meh into magic by boofing it...
> 
> anyone done it... Or iv?
> 
> maybe drugsdata/Earth is right and it's a liver enzymes_


I have tried boofing mehDMA as it is a ROA I find effective with many drugs and it definitely did not turn it into magic... Just stronger Meh. Also tried subQ injection with similar results : more bioavailable MehDMA.


----------



## vash445

babooon87 said:


> I have tried boofing mehDMA as it is a ROA I find effective with many drugs and it definitely did not turn it into magic... Just stronger Meh. Also tried subQ injection with similar results : more bioavailable MehDMA.


Bummer


----------



## vash445

S.J.B. said:


> This spectrum is very clean, in MeOH-_d4_. No significant impurities. Spectrum shows the same compound as 207.pdf, 579.pdf, and MDMAnmr.pdf, all of which are consistent with MDMA. The COSY and HMQC are consistent with MDMA. The NOESY is of poor quality and doesn't show anything useful, but in any case the information it would give would be more or less redundant in as simple a molecule as MDMA once you have a COSY and HMQC/HSQC. An HMBC (another 2D experiment which shows which carbons are a few bonds away from a given proton) would give more-conclusive structural information. At this point all the NMR evidence points towards this being MDMA.



Friend running NMR
So i agree that the noe experiment wasnt great but i think if its examined closly we see some of the CH3 (either or both i dont have it in front of me) thru space coupling with the benzene ring which helps support that its not some ismer with a strange methyl placement. Any other placement of a Methyl wouldnt be expected with such a rxn so perhaps it my be almost useless.


----------



## CantTrustEM

Simosom said:


> For meh mdma It is easy to confuse even very experience users like indigoaura or g_chem, sometime you can have a great time on mehdma too.
> If you go to the reddit mdma forum, all users are claiming full happines, serotonin leak, max pupils dilated.
> Of course most of the people dont know difference, they have never seen pupils completely dilated, or someone under the influence of so called magic mdma.
> Let's be carefull here and dont easy accept anyone claiming their mdma as magic, especially "my trusted friend frieds had a great time".
> I can guarantee that is impossible to find magic mdma in dutch or england nowadays.
> There is no logic for someone to produce it when you can buy very well selling product for  couple of euros and make profit from it.
> For me, most important difference is duration, everything else can be subjective.



What are you saying of duration?

The magic MDMA i injected and it lasted around 2-4 hours,

this last doses I injected and the high seemed gone in 1-2.


----------



## indigoaura

I am having a bit of a hard time following these recent developments.

Seems that several people are hypothesizing that the additional peak noted on the NMR for the "meh" samples is the result of the solvent used for the test?



> Friend running NMR
> So i agree that the noe experiment wasnt great but i think if its examined closly we see some of the CH3 (either or both i dont have it in front of me) thru space coupling with the benzene ring which helps support that its not some ismer with a strange methyl placement. Any other placement of a Methyl wouldnt be expected with such a rxn so perhaps it my be almost useless.



@vash445 What does this mean? Are we back to thinking the meh sample may be another compound entirely as opposed to thinking it is MDMA + a contaminant that formed during synthesis?

I am trying to keep Drugs Data up to date on all of this, as they still want to help, and are willing to analyze samples with GCMS.


----------



## S.J.B.

vash445 said:


> Will ask for HMBC because  this is def meh product


Look at the spectra for 207.pdf ("confirmed magic") and the spectra for this "meh" product. They are unambiguously the same compound, and if anything, the "meh" spectra are cleaner. If there is any impurity in the "meh" product, its (a) not soluble in methanol and/or (b) doesn't contain carbon or hydrogen and/or (c) is only a couple percent or less of the sample. Choices (b) or (c) will be impossible to investigate properly by NMR, but (a) -- the presence of an insoluble cut -- is not entirely unreasonable. This could be easily investigated by taking a known amount of material (say, 100 mg) and dissolving it in a few mL of methanol. It should be obvious if a significant amount does not dissolve. Quantifying how much MDMA is in the sample can be done by filtering, concentrating and drying the filtrate thoroughly, and checking the weight of the recovered material.

For what it's worth, I think the Occam's-razor answer here is that the variation has more to do with the users than the drugs, but it doesn't hurt to investigate.


----------



## vash445

S.J.B. said:


> Look at the spectra for 207.pdf ("confirmed magic") and the spectra for this "meh" product. They are unambiguously the same compound, and if anything, the "meh" spectra are cleaner. If there is any impurity in the "meh" product, its (a) not soluble in methanol and/or (b) doesn't contain carbon or hydrogen and/or (c) is only a couple percent or less of the sample. Choices (b) or (c) will be impossible to investigate properly by NMR, but (a) -- the presence of an insoluble cut -- is not entirely unreasonable. This could be easily investigated by taking a known amount of material (say, 100 mg) and dissolving it in a few mL of methanol. It should be obvious if a significant amount does not dissolve. Quantifying how much MDMA is in the sample can be done by filtering, concentrating atnd drying the filtrate thoroughly, and checking the weight of the recovered material.
> 
> For what it's worth, I think the Occam's-razor answer here is that the variation has more to do with the users t


I assure  you meh is not cut... this is private lab with provided safrole


----------



## indigoaura

> if anything, the "meh" spectra are cleaner.


 Is there anything in the "magic" sample that could be an active impurity?


----------



## opposable-thumbs

CantTrustEM said:


> I just received some white, 80% tested pure MDMA purple Marquis, all white / clear, no brown or sass tint to it.
> 
> Can't say the experience was anything near that of the St Louis MDMA, definitely "junk".
> 
> And it was junk even with a dark purple Marquis .. containing high amounts of MDMA.. but nonetheless some garbage ingredient overriding said magic.



Is this the same DNM sourced product that indigoaura mentioned several pages back?


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> I am having a bit of a hard time following these recent developments.
> 
> Seems that several people are hypothesizing that the additional peak noted on the NMR for the "meh" samples is the result of the solvent used for the test?
> 
> 
> 
> @vash445 What does this mean? Are we back to thinking the meh sample may be another compound entirely as opposed to thinking it is MDMA + a contaminant that formed during synthesis?
> 
> I am trying to keep Drugs Data up to date on all of this, as they still want to help, and are willing to analyze samples with GCMS.


Didn't said peak go away once column ran maybe I'm wrong but this whole thing makes no sense to me


----------



## vash445

S.J.B. said:


> Look at the spectra for 207.pdf ("confirmed magic") and the spectra for this "meh" product. They are unambiguously the same compound, and if anything, the "meh" spectra are cleaner. If there is any impurity in the "meh" product, its (a) not soluble in methanol and/or (b) doesn't contain carbon or hydrogen and/or (c) is only a couple percent or less of the sample. Choices (b) or (c) will be impossible to investigate properly by NMR, but (a) -- the presence of an insoluble cut -- is not entirely unreasonable. This could be easily investigated by taking a known amount of material (say, 100 mg) and dissolving it in a few mL of methanol. It should be obvious if a significant amount does not dissolve. Quantifying how much MDMA is in the sample can be done by filtering, concentrating and drying the filtrate thoroughly, and checking the weight of the recovered material.
> 
> For what it's worth, I think the Occam's-razor answer here is that the variation has more to do with the users than the drugs, but it doesn't hurt to investigate.


----------



## vash445

View attachment 21546View attachment 21546
@S.J.B.


----------



## S.J.B.

vash445 said:


> View attachment 21546View attachment 21546
> @S.J.B.


If I'm interpreting this correctly, the analyst is expecting the two protons on the methylene to appear as one peak. However, due to the stereocentre at the alpha position, these two protons are diastereotopic and therefore inequivalent by NMR. The 1:1:4 pattern consists of, from left to right: the methine at the alpha position (1), one of the two methylene protons (1), and the other methylene proton overlapping with the N-methyl (4).


----------



## indigoaura

> Didn't said peak go away once column ran maybe I'm wrong but this whole thing makes no sense to me



???

I am confused too. I thought the whole premise was that the silica column cleaned the sample and made the meh NMR result match the magic NMR result.  I thought there was a separated compound that was going to be analyzed...?


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> ???
> 
> I am confused too. I thought the whole premise was that the silica column cleaned the sample and made the meh NMR result match the magic NMR result.  I thought there was a separated compound that was going to be analyzed...?


We are it's just gonna take time


----------



## vash445

So talked to NMR guy as we seem to be exhausted almost every test. Lucky me I remember something.

Me: Anyways my only guess now is maybe the skill of crystallization such a .h20 entering the crystal lattice

People were talking about a while fluffy snow product being magic that hints either borohydrides or column ran product...

Def not the MDMA boulders we use to

Him: Water in lattice shouldn't matter especially if one lets crystallization happen in touches and slowly.  Then it's pure on the insides

Me: pretty sure I read that it effect bioavailability strangely enough read articles brlow

His message
As for the polymorphs, I 100% should have been able to considered it as a potential issue. Its been a while since, but i was certainly taught of its existance. those papers were very good. And opens the door for some new tests.






						Polymorphism: The Phenomenon Affecting the Performance   of Drugs
					

Polymorphism is the ability of solid materials to exist in two or more crystalline forms with different arrangements or conformations of the constituents in the crystal lattice.




					symbiosisonlinepublishing.com
				












						Polymorph Impact on the Bioavailability and Stability of Poorly Soluble Drugs
					

Drugs with low water solubility are predisposed to poor and variable oral bioavailability and, therefore, to variability in clinical response, that might be overcome through an appropriate formulation of the drug. Polymorphs (anhydrous and solvate/hydrate ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				








__





						A Review on Polymorphism Perpetuates Pharmaceuticals
					

A Review on Polymorphism Perpetuates Pharmaceuticals, Nalliboyina Lakshmi Prasanthi, M Sudhir, N Jyothi and V Sri vajrapriya




					www.imedpub.com


----------



## vash445

*Figure 2: *Pictorial representation (a) Amorphous form (b) Crystalline form (c) Hydrates and Solvates (d) Clathrates *O* Drug molecule *** Solvent molecule *O*Trapped drug molecule





As far as dosage form development is concerned, following general rules are advised for the APIs which show polymorphism: (a) Selection of the lowest energy polymorph as it is the most thermodynamically stable form; (b) Avoidance of the metastable forms, though they are more physically stable, but chemically less stable. Attempts should be made to play with the excipients to achieve the set pharmaceutical goals, instead of selecting the metastable form; (c) Maintenance of such conditions which will avoid transitions from metastable form to the stable form throughout the shelf-life of the product, if the former form is selected due to a particular reason like bioavailability enhancement; (d) Assurance of avoidance of any polymorphic transition in the dosage form throughout its shelf-life, if so, the same should not significantly affect the product quality and bioavailability [19, 20].


----------



## vash445

The investigation of drug polymorphism is an essential step in any formulation. While formulating a drug product physiochemical stability, solubility and bioavailability of active ingredient are prominent are factors. The Study of polymorphism is necessarily predominant acquire comprehensive knowledge on rapid absorption of low solubility drugs in systemic circulation. In order to increase the effective surface area of the drug substances by turning them into different shapes, the empowerment of dissolution rate and bioavailability by employing recrystallization technique is very important. Since most of the drugs are examined through oral route practice, the size and shape of the crystal play a key note is their dissolution rate, as proved by Noyes Whitney, through his equation. In this an crystal view point the writer makes an effort to prove the importance of polymorphism in pharmaceuticals and how it shows its impact on pharmaceutical properties like solubility, dissolution rate, bioavailability, etc. of drug substances.

Polymorphs are broadly classified into two types. They are 1. Monotropes 2. Enantiotropes. For a monotropic system, plots of free energy of the various polymorphs against temperature do not cross before all polymorphs become melt. For an enantiotropic system, a plot of the free energy against temperature shows a crossing point at various melting points, and it may be possible to convert reversibly the two polymorphs on heating and cooling. Enantiotropes are members of a pair of polymorphs whose mutual transitional temperature is less than the melting point of either of the polymorph [7] [8].

Polymorphic differences and transformation that result in different apparent solubility and dissolution rate are generally detected by dissolution testing. If there are differences in the solubility of various polymorphs, they will show effect upon drug product, bioavailability, bioequivalence, gastrointestinal motility and intestinal permeability. A drug with dissolution as the rate limiting step, the polymorphic form affects the bioavailability and bioequivalence. If a drug has permeability as the rate limiting step, solubility of polymorphic forms show less effect on bioavailability and bioequivalence.

*Stability*

Polymorphs of a pharmaceutical solid may have different physical and chemical solid state properties. The most stable polymorphic form of a drug substance is often used because it has the lowest potential for conversion from one polymorphic form to another while the metastable form may be used to enhance the bioavailability. The relative polymorphic stability may be determined by an appropriate examination of the relative apparent solubility of supersaturated solution of polymorphic pairs. Since the rate of conversion to the more stable form is often rapid when mediated by the solution phase, the less stable polymorph with the grater apparent solubility dissolves, while the more stable polymorph with the lower apparent solubility crystallizes out upon sanding. One polymorph may convert to another during manufacturing and storage, particularly when a metastable form is used.


The study of polymorphism is necessary to acquire knowledge on rapid absorption of low solubility of drugs in systemic circulation, to improve dissolution rate and bioavailability. From the above information we can conclude that the order of solubility of different forms of polymorphs are amorphous > metastable > stable form, whereas in terms of either stability the order is stable > amorphous > metastable.


----------



## vash445

If anyone has any other off the wall ideas shoot them here.


----------



## user666

I have seen two 1st time users (28 y.o. boyfriend and girlfriend with no previous drug use nor any anti-depressant use) dissolve 300mg of crystal MDMA in a glass of tap water.  It dissolved completely, the liquid was absolutely clear and no sediment was left at the bottom of the glass.  After drinking it on an empty stomach, they came up in about half an hour, but their high was sleepy, lackluster and short (2.5h).  They just sat at a table the entire time and chatted from time to time.  Their eyes did not even dilate and jaws did not clench.  I was their sitter so I paid attention to the eyes and jaws.  The powder was bought in Rotterdam, it was champagne colored, rocky  and had been tested in a Dutch testing center as containing only MDMA and 2% Caffeine.


----------



## user666

vash445 said:


> If anyone has any other off the wall ideas shoot them here.



All the variabilities of crystalline polymorphisms can be *ignored* when the MDMA salt powder is completely *dissolved in water* for consumption.
A liquid solution has no crystalline structure, thus crystalline polymorphs do not exist in it.

...and whatever has not dissolved in water was not an MDMA salt to begin with.


----------



## S.J.B.

user666 said:


> All the variabilities of crystalline polymorphisms can be *ignored* when the MDMA salt powder is completely *dissolved in water* for consumption.
> A liquid solution has no crystalline structure, thus crystalline polymorphs do not exist in it.
> 
> ...and whatever has not dissolved in water was not an MDMA salt to begin with.


Yeah, exactly. Unless you are eating your dose as one 120 mg rock, this is not going to be a factor. Polymorphism is important for pharmaceuticals with poor solubility and complex formulations, but with MDMA hydrochloride powder in a gel cap, the gel cap is going to be the bottleneck for dissolution.

It seems that anhydrous MDMA hydrochloride only appears as one polymorph.

Having the hydrate, however, will have a small effect on the drug's action, as hydration will reduce the effective mass of the active component. MDMA hydrochloride is known to come in several hydration levels:


			
				Alexander T. Shulgin said:
			
		

> The hydrochloride salt can occur in a number of hydrated crystalline forms, making the physical properties and solid spectra of risky value for identification and as criteria of purity. The following melting points (m.p.) are given: for anhydrous, 147°-148° (Bailey et al. 1975), 148°-149° (Biniccki & Krajewski 1960), 148°-150° (Davis & Borne 1984 : Merck 1914), 150-151°(Gaston & Rasmussen 1972), 151 °-152° (Braun. Shulgin & Braun 1980a), 152°-153° (Braun, Shulgin & Braun 1980a), 158°-159° (Nichols, In: Frith 1968b); for quarter-hydrate, soften 132° and m.p. 135°-139° (Shulgin 1986); for hemihydrate, soften 92° and m.p. 138°-145° (Shulgin 1986); for three-quarter hydrate, soften 50° and m.p. 90-132° (Shulgin 1986); for monohydrate, soften 80° and m.p. 107 °-133° (Shulgin 1986).


The quarter-hydrate will be 98% of the potency of the anhydrous compound; hemihydrate, 96%; three-quarter-hydrate, 94%; and monohydrate, 93%.


----------



## vash445

S.J.B. said:


> Yeah, exactly. Unless you are eating your dose as one 120 mg rock, this is not going to be a factor. Polymorphism is important for pharmaceuticals with poor solubility and complex formulations, but with MDMA hydrochloride powder in a gel cap, the gel cap is going to be the bottleneck for dissolution.
> 
> It seems that anhydrous MDMA hydrochloride only appears as one polymorph.
> 
> Having the hydrate, however, will have a small effect on the drug's action, as hydration will reduce the effective mass of the active component. MDMA hydrochloride is known to come in several hydration levels:
> 
> The quarter-hydrate will be 98% of the potency of the anhydrous compound; hemihydrate, 96%; three-quarter-hydrate, 94%; and monohydrate, 93%.




SO anyone have any other bright ideas similar to this one? Something we could at least run more tests on?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vash445 said:


> SO anyone have any other bright ideas similar to this one? Something we could at least run more tests on?


Run tests on the fractions you got from the chromatography


----------



## vash445

ThreePointCircle said:


> Run tests on the fractions you got from the chromatography


This will take time but yes besides that, that is our next course of action of course. My friend needs to get his "code to access the machine" but this will take time.


----------



## popsweat

If you want magic mdma find q dance presses they are the only thing that consistently has the magic


----------



## tripnnface

G_Chem said:


> ^^How long you been rolling? What presses were they?
> 
> -Gc




been rolling since about 2008. 

One was a blue fortnite, and the other was actually a pharaoh. so only one cp. started with half the pharaoh, then ate a full cp. was rolling well into the morning , never felt super fiendy either... well,not after the full fortnite at least lol. 

never got floored, jaw grinding, solid body load, some eye wiggles. i was blitzed for sure.


----------



## somnilicious

Anthem Acid said:


> Didn't check my eyes, so I don't know about that. But, yeah, stuff felt nice. Puling on the skin on my arm and face felt cool as hell and i sadly didn't listen to any music on the peak. At least not good music. We we're just hanging out, talking our asses off. Great time, though.
> 
> That's great to hear that I got some good stuff. It was great, definitely among my favorite drugs i've ever done. I'd say it felt like Meth if Meth felt clean and pure and not like, well, meth. Euphoria through the roof.



Did you feel closer to the people you were with, as if they were beloved family and irreplaceable friends? Did you feel the need to share the most intimate details of your life with them, tell them how much they meant to you, how much you loved them and life? Did your vision bounce around and your eyes wiggle back and forth, while your jaw slid side to side and you grinded or chattered your teeth during lovey dovey outpourings of appreciation and proclamations of love? Did simply breathing or rubbing your arms and head feel orgasmic? If it really was magic MDMA then you were really missing out on the whole experience by not listening to music, which is a must for enhancement and a truly mind blowing MDMA experience.


----------



## popsweat

^^^ qdance is the pressing crew. They are responsible for the ikeas, skypes, m&ms, sprites, iPhone X etc

they are super hard press and bilayered so very difficult to copy which keeps the quality top notch. If you look up reviews on pillreports or reddit for any of their presses you will see reports of magic experience such as eye wiggles, euphoria , desire to dance.


----------



## majk13

^^° pillseports is manipulated by mdma producers.  Everyone can enter to write superlatives about a given product.  The only sources of truth are internet forums, but here too often manipulation occurs, for example, you have several posts and praise a product, why should we believe you?


----------



## Kaden_Nite

popsweat said:


> ^^^ qdance is the pressing crew. They are responsible for the ikeas, skypes, m&ms, sprites, iPhone X etc
> 
> they are super hard press and bilayered so very difficult to copy which keeps the quality top notch. If you look up reviews on pillreports or reddit for any of their presses you will see reports of magic experience such as eye wiggles, euphoria , desire to dance.


If you get those batches when they are hot off the press in EU, good chance that you're getting the genuine article.

Once a particular stamp gains a following though, the follow-up batches tend to get worse and worse with every re-issue and are most likely no longer coming from the original manufacturers. Just copycats riding on the coattails of another crew's success.

Over the past few years, certain companies seem to be attempting to make it more difficult for counterfeiters with increasingly difficult designs, lately a few bi-coloured presses for example.


----------



## popsweat

majk13 said:


> ^^° pillseports is manipulated by mdma producers.  Everyone can enter to write superlatives about a given product.  The only sources of truth are internet forums, but here too often manipulation occurs, for example, you have several posts and praise a product, why should we believe you?



I understand you skepticism and rightful so. Just trying to provide some feedback after lurking this thread for a while and seeing everything spin in circles over NMR analysis.

I have been doing mdma since the 90s and sourcing it online since bitcoin was less than $100. I am probably sitting on over 30 different batches currently. Some of which vendors making outrageous claims like being produced with more S or R isomers than normal. My favorite batch was produced by a famous active lsd vendor who sold triple washed recrystalized mdma but discontinued due to increased competition and new precoursers. It is probably the finest mdma I have ever done.

The only “brand” I have been experiencing magic is from these q dance presses whichI agree is not ideal to some but at least provides consistent results for me.


----------



## indigoaura

@vash445 Polymorphism was discussed earlier in the thread fairly extensively. Hard to recall exactly where in the thread, but I remember reading about it. Although it can impact bio-availability, those discussing it did not feel like it was the issue (as I recall).

Also, there have been reports of magic powder and magic crystals in the thread. I don't know that magic is limited to one particular form. My "meh" products have had a variety of appearances, from a dry powder to a large rock.

@popsweat One of the issues I have with Qdance pills, from what I have read and seen, is that they contain such a large amount of MDMA. That amount of MDMA should be overwhelming, and it is really not a safe dose. Why is there a need for such a high dosage when an old 70 mg pill would blow people away? The other vendor you describe sounds interesting and needed on the DW. I have hardly seen anything with any detail or quality in the listing. It all seems very mass produced and dumbed down for the most part.

I can't speak for everyone, but from my perspective, we are trying to do more here than just identify who has made quality pills. We want to know WHY some batches of MDMA produce different, sub-par effects. We want some type of knowledge that can benefit the whole community, so that a test could be produced, or someone like Drugs Data can adjust their approach to differentiate quality from inferior product.

The NMR may seem like spinning wheels to you, but analytical data is one of the only things that is actually going to push this conversation towards a concrete answer.


----------



## majk13

Yesterday evening I gave my wife mdma to test, which I described in an earlier post.  

She has not taken mdma for 15 years, she used mdma twice before.  200 mg dose.  Strong entry, dizziness.  After 40 minutes, the state calmed down.  The pupils were huge for almost all eyes, she was very talkative all evening, she has lockjaw.  Zero feelings of happiness or any improvement in mood, no improvement in perception of touch.  She felt alienated.  

A friend of mine also tested and reportedly described his experiences.  

In my opinion, there is no reaction to serotonin receptors, the only question is why?


----------



## user666

majk13 said:


> In my opinion, there is no reaction to serotonin receptors, the only question is why?


I don't know, MDMA is supposed to be active with the adrenergic, dopaminergic and serotonergic receptors.
It looks like her adrenergic receptors were getting stimulated, though, because her pupils have dilated ( that's at least 1 out of 3 ).

Anyway, isn't 200mg too much for a girl ?

P.S.
I am a 220lbs guy (100kg) and 90mg was always enough for me in 1980s (with big eyes, locked jaw, love, touchy-feely and enough energy to dance for 5h ).  It is my understanding that girls need less mg per kg ...and usually they have lower body weight, too.


----------



## majk13

I don't have an exact weight, but it was around 150-200 mg. There was actually too much. 

She slept well, and today she feels quite positive, you can see that she has a lot of energy for everything she does.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I can't speak for everyone, but from my perspective, we are trying to do more here than just identify who has made quality pills. We want to know WHY some batches of MDMA produce different, sub-par effects. We want some type of knowledge that can benefit the whole community, so that a test could be produced, or someone like Drugs Data can adjust their approach to differentiate quality from inferior product.


I think so, too.



indigoaura said:


> The NMR may seem like spinning wheels to you, but analytical data is one of the only things that is actually going to push this conversation towards a concrete answer.


Exactly!


----------



## user666

majk13 said:


> I don't have an exact weight, but it was around 150-200 mg.


Can you divulge the weight of your girlfriend, too ?


----------



## majk13

60 kg


----------



## indigoaura

@majk13 I am leaning more and more towards the idea that receptors or transporters (or both) are being blocked by a contaminant. This possibility is supported through research, and it also explains why different batches seem to hit with varying levels of serotonin/dopamine activity. A lot of us seem to be encountering product without eye dilation or empathy, but with other "symptoms" like jaw clenching. You seem to have found product that allows the eye dilation, but not the empathy.


----------



## psy997

I'm also thinking it has to be active impurities causing negative effects. It makes the most sense considering the power of MehDMA to ruin otherwise good drug experiences.


----------



## Hilopsilo

S.J.B. said:


> Yeah, exactly. *Unless you are eating your dose as one 120 mg rock,* this is not going to be a factor. Polymorphism is important for pharmaceuticals with poor solubility and complex formulations, but with MDMA hydrochloride powder in a gel cap, the gel cap is going to be the bottleneck for dissolution.
> 
> It seems that anhydrous MDMA hydrochloride only appears as one polymorph.
> 
> Having the hydrate, however, will have a small effect on the drug's action, as hydration will reduce the effective mass of the active component. MDMA hydrochloride is known to come in several hydration levels:
> 
> The quarter-hydrate will be 98% of the potency of the anhydrous compound; hemihydrate, 96%; three-quarter-hydrate, 94%; and monohydrate, 93%.



Curious, would actually taking the dose as one 120mg rock potentially have a significant effect for whatever reason? Ever since I had that mehDMA experience in 2018, i make sure to grind it to a fine powder almost out of superstition as the MehDMA i'm certain we didn't crush up, and I always wondered if that would impact digestion of it (I got a gnarly stomach ache as well).

I've only taken MDMA 3 times since then (all the white scentless quartz crystal stuff), no problems any of the times, full magical experience with not a hint of doubt about it in my mind.

I rolled this weekend with it and remembered something else, between 2015-2018 every time I rolled with 100mg clean MDMA, during the come-up/pre-peak I would get these insane pins and needles in my extremities for 10-15 minutes. It wasn't necessarily painful, but it sure scared the shit out of me without fail each time it happened. I've posted threads about it on here before, couldn't find much info on similar experiences. It actually became a huge source of come-up anxiety, I just had to sorta trust that it would fine, and medical at the festival didn't seem to think it was all that alarming. But, these last 3 rolls, not a sign of that symptom, nor did I have it the time in 2017 that was maybe the hardest I ever rolled (also with fine powder quartz scentless). This could be totally unrelated, maybe just a symptom of my biology during those years?

Anywho, last night all 5 of us took 100mg, my girlfriend only took 80mg (usually takes 100mg, 80mg ended up being plenty), went to a rave and it was the most therapeutic experience I've had, well, since the last time i took it. My other friend took 100mg and ended up puking, she ate a ton of fruit right before thinking that was a good idea (I'm not sure it is?) and has got to weigh no more than 115lb... Solid night, feel better today than I've felt in months, like some wight has been lifted from my shoulders and I have clarity. A little slow mentally, low on sleep, but just been smoking weed, eating good food and hanging out with my cats.

(Off-topic but DMT vape pen is amazing in the after hours of the roll, the MDMA after effects filter out any negative bodyload/mindset you could have from DMT since you're already so at peace. Definitely recommend, lots of small hits... DO NOT DO THIS WITH CHANGA, IT WILL GIVE YOU SEROTONIN SYNDROME OR SOMETHING).


----------



## vash445

Hilopsilo said:


> Curious, would actually taking the dose as one 120mg rock potentially have a significant effect for whatever reason? Ever since I had that mehDMA experience in 2018, i make sure to grind it to a fine powder almost out of superstition as the MehDMA i'm certain we didn't crush up, and I always wondered if that would impact digestion of it (I got a gnarly stomach ache as well)
> 
> I've only taken MDMA 3 times since then (all the white scentless quartz crystal stuff), no problems any of the times, full magical experience with not a hint of doubt about it in my mind.
> 
> I rolled this weekend with it and remembered something else, between 2015-2018 every time I rolled with 100mg clean MDMA, during the come-up/pre-peak I would get these insane pins and needles in my extremities for 10-15 minutes. It wasn't necessarily painful, but it sure scared the shit out of me without fail each time it happened. I've posted threads about it on here before, couldn't find much info on similar experiences. It actually became a huge source of come-up anxiety, I just had to sorta trust that it would fine, and medical at the festival didn't seem to think it was all that alarming. But, these last 3 rolls, not a sign of that symptom, nor did I have it the time in 2017 that was maybe the hardest I ever rolled (also with fine powder quartz scentless). This could be totally unrelated, maybe just a symptom of my biology during those years?
> 
> Anywho, all 5 of us took 100mg, my girlfriend only took 80mg by choice, went to a rave and it was the most therapeutic experience I've had since the last time i took it. My other friend took 100mg and ended up puking, she ate a ton of fruit right before thinking that was a good idea (I'm not sure it is?) and has got to weigh no more than 115lb...
> 
> (Off-topic but DMT vape pen is amazing in the after hours of the roll, the MDMA after effects filter out any negative bodyload/mindset you could have from DMT since you're already so at peace. Definitely recommend, lots of small hits... DO NOT DO THIS WITH CHANGA, IT WILL GIVE YOU SEROTONIN SYNDROME OR SOMETHING).


Surface area effects dissolution and bioavailability..

Always crush it into a fine powder for max results. 

after reduction of particle size, increased saturation solubility, an enlarged surface area, and a thinner diffusion layer could dramatically increase the dissolution velocity, thereby simultaneously improving bioavailability.









						Effect of particle size on solubility, dissolution rate, and oral bioavailability: evaluation using coenzyme Q10 as naked nanocrystals
					

In this paper work, four naked nanocrystals (size range 80–700 nm) were prepared without any surfactant or polymer using the solvent/nonsolvent method. The effects of particle size on their solubility, dissolution, and oral bioavailability were ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Hilopsilo

Well, could that be a potential theory? It fits my experience, or I can't say it doesn't for sure, plenty of times I've taken my 100mg as crystal chunks, those time certainly could have been the meh ones. But, I can say for sure the 3 magic rolls since I noticed this (and the one before) were crushed to a fine, fine powder and taken in a gel cap.

As well, its almost like with the magic stuff the come-up is actually less intense, but results in a stronger roll. It doesn't get all stressful and jarring then fizzle out on the way up. Its fully satisfying, nothing is wanting.


----------



## user666

vash445 said:


> Always crush it into a fine powder for max results.


Me thinks, that *complete dissolution* is more effective than crushing in equalizing all bioavailability issues due to crystalline polymorphisms.
It is a lot less messy, too....

It also has a small purification effect, because whatever does not dissolve in pure water is *not* an MDMA salt, in other words - insoluble stuff is a cut or impurity.
Gastrointestinal secretions might be able to dissolve what water was not able to - this is not good.


----------



## psy997

Hilopsilo said:


> Well, could that be a potential theory



No. I've had plenty of Magic experiences eating rock straight, and Meh experiences with fine powder or dissolved product. If this was an explanation then plugging MDMA - assuming you're plugging a solution and not a rock lol - would turn Meh into Magic.

Again, at this point I think the only explanation is active impurities with negative effects on serotonin receptors. If the difference between Magic and Meh was that Magic had positive effect impurities, that wouldn't explain MehDMA ruining already good drug experiences, at least, it doesn't make near as much sense to me.


----------



## indigoaura

My meh experiences have also been mostly with powder inside capsules.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Right, probably not the culprit, but might be worth it for anyone here to always crush it to a fine powder for peace of mind. As vash posted, its clearly documented that it has some relation to bioavailability, might as well eliminate it. Not anything more than a layman'd observation, but the MehDMA always feels on my body like its not absorbing right, hard to explain. Like a stalled car engine, dud firework, blew a fuse, etc...

Psy has anyone here even tried plugging MehDMA to see if it makes a difference? I've never tried plugging anything, I'm such a lightweight when it comes to drugs I'm always scared I'd get way too fucked and shit myself at the rave 

On another note, a friend of mine took MDMA for the first time in a while a couple weeks ago, the magic stuff we all have. She swore off MDMA a while ago as it makes her feel awful the next day/week, tons of stomach issues while on it, never feels worth it for her. She took 100mg of this stuff and had the same problem, she's back to swearing it off forever. She never had a period of abuse with it, always took responsible doses, didn't mix with other drugs, and didn't redose (much) to my knowledge. I'm always incredulous of this, as for every single other person 100mg of it has them on the moon and no issues. Was talking to her about it this weekend, just reminded me that these things affect everyone differently and that will always play a role as a variable in our research, good to mindful of it.

PS: this was the first time I took MDMA without some varying dose of LSD in a very long time, years. While it was still magical, the comeup was a whole lot less paranoid/stressful/intense and the absolute energy explosion that is a candyflip peak was absent, but it wasn't as if it was disappointing or anything was missing for that reason, it was just different. Still felt fully satisfied by it. Basically, it put into perspective just how much LSD and MDMA synergize to create this truly electric experience.


----------



## babooon87

Hilopsilo said:


> Right, probably not the culprit, but might be worth it for anyone here to always crush it to a fine powder for peace of mind. As vash posted, its clearly documented that it has some relation to bioavailability, might as well eliminate it. Not anything more than a layman'd observation, but the MehDMA always feels on my body like its not absorbing right, hard to explain. Like a stalled car engine, dud firework, blew a fuse, etc...
> 
> Psy has anyone here even tried plugging MehDMA to see if it makes a difference? I've never tried plugging anything, I'm such a lightweight when it comes to drugs I'm always scared I'd get way too fucked and shit myself at the rave
> 
> On another note, a friend of mine took MDMA for the first time in a while a couple weeks ago, the magic stuff we all have. She swore off MDMA a while ago as it makes her feel awful the next day/week, tons of stomach issues while on it, never feels worth it for her. She took 100mg of this stuff and had the same problem, she's back to swearing it off forever. She never had a period of abuse with it, always took responsible doses, didn't mix with other drugs, and didn't redose (much) to my knowledge. I'm always incredulous of this, as for every single other person 100mg of it has them on the moon and no issues. Was talking to her about it this weekend, just reminded me that these things affect everyone differently and that will always play a role as a variable in our research, good to mindful of it.
> 
> PS: this was the first time I took MDMA without some varying dose of LSD in a very long time, years. While it was still magical, the comeup was a whole lot less paranoid/stressful/intense and the absolute energy explosion that is a candyflip peak was absent, but it wasn't as if it was disappointing or anything was missing for that reason, it was just different. Still felt fully satisfied by it.


Yes, as I said a few pages back I tried plugging and injecting MehDMA and it did not change the nature of the effects and only made it stronger MehDMA unfortunately.


----------



## Hilopsilo

babooon87 said:


> Yes, as I said a few pages back I tried plugging and injecting MehDMA and it did not change the nature of the effects and only made it stronger MehDMA unfortunately.



Have you had MDMA you felt was magic since you started coming across MehDMA?

I only ask since now that this magic stuff is plentiful among my social circle, I do have friends that this stuff still doesn't work for. MDMA stopped working for them a while ago and no matter how much they take of this stuff its still just "shrug" for them. They end up taking multiple doses and snorting bumps of it all night like its nothing, they're having a good time, but speaking to them they say its not much of a special experience ever anymore regardless of which MDMA they take and are always chasing it. Not saying this is your case, but this feels like proof to me that just because its good shit doesn't mean one can't have ruined MDMA for themselves at some point in the past... Again, same stuff that 100mg gives me flashbacks to 10 years ago taking my first pressed pill at the peak.

I was around probably ~20 people who took varying doses of this MDMA this weekend, I can say for 100% certain it works as intended. But when the part of the crew that overdid it on the MDMA at some point, the ones who always need a way bigger dose than everyone else and don't roll often cause they say it doesn't work for them anymore, still aren't satisfied or impressed, I'm forced to believe the MDMA itself isn't the only factor in anyone's poor reactions to it.

Afterglow is still going strong today, slept like 13 hours last night. Interestingly enough, an embarrassing health condition that come up this last month that a _possible _cause was stress, started going away yesterday. Like big time going away, almost gone entirely. I was scheduled for a short medical procedure for it this week, to nip it in the bud, but they told me it wouldn't be necessary if I see signs of improvement and they can confirm upon examination. Just if it gets worse, I'd need surgery. Will update on wednesday after the exam. Could be _completely _unrelated, but thought worth mentioning.


----------



## indigoaura

> On another note, a friend of mine took MDMA for the first time in a while a couple weeks ago, the magic stuff we all have. She swore off MDMA a while ago as it makes her feel awful the next day/week, tons of stomach issues while on it, never feels worth it for her. She took 100mg of this stuff and had the same problem, she's back to swearing it off forever. She never had a period of abuse with it, always took responsible doses, didn't mix with other drugs, and didn't redose (much) to my knowledge. I'm always incredulous of this, as for every single other person 100mg of it has them on the moon and no issues. Was talking to her about it this weekend, just reminded me that these things affect everyone differently and that will always play a role as a variable in our research, good to mindful of it.



I had a friend like this too. It did not matter what the product was. Everyone else at the party would be having a great time, and she would be WAY TOO FUCKED UP. She would shake and just be gone...in an uncomfortable way. There was clearly some underlying genetic/personal issue at play. She responded really strongly to LSD as well.

And, I also recall people who had abused MDMA (multiple times per week for months), and just lost the ability to roll. 

There are clearly a lot of factors. 

But, I still think that when a lot of people are reporting the same effects from one particular batch of MDMA, then the issue is likely the product. Especially when those people have a wide variety of past usage histories including limited/no use.


----------



## Hilopsilo

indigoaura said:


> I had a friend like this too. It did not matter what the product was. Everyone else at the party would be having a great time, and she would be WAY TOO FUCKED UP. She would shake and just be gone...in an uncomfortable way. There was clearly some underlying genetic/personal issue at play. She responded really strongly to LSD as well.
> 
> And, I also recall people who had abused MDMA (multiple times per week for months), and just lost the ability to roll.
> 
> There are clearly a lot of factors.
> 
> But, I still think that when a lot of people are reporting the same effects from one particular batch of MDMA, then the issue is likely the product. Especially when those people have a wide variety of past usage histories including limited/no use.



Ya for her its not a potency issue, 100mg works just fine in that sense, but the weird side and after effects are just totally out of the norm. Could also be an underlying condition that I (or her too) just don't know about, I don't know her particularly well. (it should be noted that they have always struggled with their weight, I can't help but wonder if it has any impact since MDMA dose is somewhat weight dependent, right?)

A lot of the people I know who stopped being able to roll properly due to frequency of use/dose amount started just doing bumps of it all night rather than doses, they only do MDMA this way now and have for years. Not sure how much they go through in a night, I reckon 200-300mg. Others need 300mg+ orally and are still a bit disappointed/chasing it usually. Also dose amount seems to be a point of no return in all of these cases, a friend of mine who can't roll too well anymore, their first time took 200mg and subsequently 100mg has NEVER worked regardless of product.

It all makes me wonder if for some people who think they have this issue, issue of MehDMA, and have tried MANY different batches for few years and _still_ can't roll, maybe the MDMA has started to simply stop working regardless of the quality of product they have is. Its equally if not more plausible in that scenario.

Regardless, I'm really just thinking out loud here, don't mean to make any assumptions/conclusions about anyone experiences.


----------



## psy997

I've plugged more than one batch of MehDMA, it doesn't help.

And, I've had MagicDMA experiences interspersed through the time since first having Meh-ish stuff in early 2015. It's been a little Magic since late '16 early '17 - mostly different batches from different parts of the US - and lots of Meh. It does seem the qualities of Meh-ness have been different dependent on batch. The first time I had MDMA that acted Meh-ish the high was pretty good, not the best roll ever, but good (tactile sensation was greatly enhanced, the love was 75-90% there, and a good time was had) and then everyone abruptly came down 3 hours after coming up. I told my buddy something was up, but he didn't believe me because it tested perfectly with a regeant. Now, everything Meh is just super meh. And then once in a fucking while, way too long, it's good. And it's gone. 

And to be clear, I found this thread 18-28 months into having these experiences and experienced great relief reading others had experienced similar things. I did not go out looking, and in fact didn't really think anything of it, because there was no way in my mind that MDMA could be Meh.


----------



## indigoaura

> It all makes me wonder if for some people who think they have this issue, issue of MehDMA, and have tried MANY different batches for few years and _still_ can't roll, maybe the MDMA has started to simply stop working regardless of the quality of product they have is. Its equally if not more plausible in that scenario.



Believe me, I have asked myself this & I am open to this being my reality. That is why I also pursue approaches like NAC or BPC157 in the event that the issue is ME.

However, here are the reasons I question this logic (for me personally).

1. 2000-2005 when I had a consistent supplier, I had no issues. Despite the fact that the bulk of my use was during this time frame, I did not experience any major loss of quality to the experience.

2. Immediately when the supplier changed, the experience changed. Rolling went from being one thing, to being something completely different. 

3. I had one supplier of MehDMA from 2005 until the point that I started participating in this thread. I am not plugged in to any "scene," and had very limited options. One of the samples provided to Vash was of this product.

4. Everything I have tried recently has also been tested by other people, and we all share the same analysis of the product. For example, we agree that that the most recent product I tried is about halfway between meh and magic. 

So, while I absolutely recognize it could be tolerance/damage with me, I also do not think I have had the best supply. I would be more convinced my issue was ME if I could try some product that was magic to another experienced user. But, until I see someone else experiencing magic while I experience meh, I remain skeptical. So far, everything I have found to be "meh" has been "meh" to others as well.


----------



## OpiateKiller

Idk if you look at this as a good or a bad thing but I’ve noticed with IV in about 15-20 seconds I can differentiate mehMDMA and magic...

It’s either there or it’s not. And when you shoot bioavailability is no issue...

that shit is hitting you 100% right away


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

The MehDMA is hitting in 15-20 sec?


----------



## psy997

PsychedelicSummer said:


> The MehDMA is hitting in 15-20 sec?



I think he's saying that Magic or Meh both hit quick enough to tell within that time frame whether something is up or not.


----------



## Stunned Guy

Damn haven't been on Bluelight for ages (have been a lurker back in my (drug) experimental period), but I am surprised there's a topic about this matter.

I have been thinking about this theory myself for years, but honestly I just gave up and thought I just f*cked up my receptors.

I'm based in the Netherlands and have PLENTY of experience with MDMA and other substances, most of them from years back.

Basically some years back I just got tired of MDMA cause of the different effects compared to the years before.

I have been very lucky to live in a country with good acces to MDMA and I have had so many, many (good) experiences with 'magic', but unfortunately also with 'meh'.

I do also think there's something different and will be following this topic from now on with great interest.

Recently I've done MDMA again but unfortunately again the underwhelming  (meh) effects for me and my friends.

Damn I miss those days with the happy, euphoric rolls, and I can confirm all the differences stated in this topic between 'magic' and 'meh' in terms of effects.

Again, following with much interest and curious about the outcomes!


[edit] To contribute a bit better to this topic, the biggest differences in my opinion:

- Shorter duration 
- Higher dose needed
- More urge to re-dose
- Less euphoric / no 'love' feeling
- Less stimulating, even easy to fall asleep on/after words 
- No eye wobbling 
- More spacing in your own world, instead of want to be in contact with everyone around you
- Less talkative 

And so on, all same as stated in his topic.

Funny thing is, even though slightly offtopic, after more and more underwhelming experiences, I found a new 'love' in 4-MMC, abut unfortunately the exact same thing happend to this substance.

The differences in effects for this substance are comparable, but a bit more easy to categorize, referring to pre-ban and post-ban 4-MMC.

I've not read back all the replies but has the 'changing' of this substance been mentioned as wel in this topic?

Like I said, very similar change in effects over the years, could there be some sort of synergy in that?

[/edit]


----------



## SympatheticMD

G_Chem said:


> I highly respect you Sekio but I have to disagree..  Mdp2p-ol very likely has effects when you look at other analogous compounds.  We also have multiple bioassays with product containing either of those two intermediates which show a lack of the positive effects.
> 
> Also I hate saying it but based on your other assessments of different substances that you may not have the best discernment between compounds.  In another post you claim dihydroheroin is the same as heroin when both my experience with close dihydro analogs as well as others Ive talked with who’ve tried the actual compound speaks differently. (Even the research states morphine can be discerned from dihydromorphine by subjects during their studies.) Again I don’t wanna start anything but I believe some people can feel the subtleties better than others.
> 
> Do you remember how much Mdp2p-ol you had in your product back then?
> 
> -GC


@indigoaura 

Hey you guys!  I've been gone forever but I came back with LeJunk to see what ya'll found!  Perseverance!  @Gchem I just ran across this rather long and slow podcast that made me think of you and your love for Shulgin.  I think you'll like it.  It is a history surprise about the making of MDMA.  Let's see if I can link it

http://drugpositive.org/meet-the-first-person-in-the-world-to-take-mdma-that-we-know-of.  

Hope you guys are doing well!  I also randomly looked for safrole on amazon (remember I was always staunchly saying this was the issue).  It claims to sell it, but I don't know...I wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. I'm about to go look up what kind of genetic polymorphisms I have in my oxytocin receptors.


----------



## SympatheticMD

indigoaura said:


> Believe me, I have asked myself this & I am open to this being my reality. That is why I also pursue approaches like NAC or BPC157 in the event that the issue is ME.
> 
> However, here are the reasons I question this logic (for me personally).
> 
> 1. 2000-2005 when I had a consistent supplier, I had no issues. Despite the fact that the bulk of my use was during this time frame, I did not experience any major loss of quality to the experience.
> 
> 2. Immediately when the supplier changed, the experience changed. Rolling went from being one thing, to being something completely different.
> 
> 3. I had one supplier of MehDMA from 2005 until the point that I started participating in this thread. I am not plugged in to any "scene," and had very limited options. One of the samples provided to Vash was of this product.
> 
> 4. Everything I have tried recently has also been tested by other people, and we all share the same analysis of the product. For example, we agree that that the most recent product I tried is about halfway between meh and magic.
> 
> So, while I absolutely recognize it could be tolerance/damage with me, I also do not think I have had the best supply. I would be more convinced my issue was ME if I could try some product that was magic to another experienced user. But, until I see someone else experiencing magic while I experience meh, I remain skeptical. So far, everything I have found to be "meh" has been "meh" to others as well.


 @indigoaura - I posted a podcast somewhere in this recent thread. Listen to it, even though it is slow.  You'll be interested to learn something about Shulgin and his experience of MDMA


----------



## OpiateKiller

Stunned Guy said:


> Damn haven't been on Bluelight for ages (have been a lurker back in my (drug) experimental period), but I am surprised there's a topic about this matter.
> 
> I have been thinking about this theory myself for years, but honestly I just gave up and thought I just f*cked up my receptors.
> 
> I'm based in the Netherlands and have PLENTY of experience with MDMA and other substances, most of them from years back.
> 
> Basically some years back I just got tired of MDMA cause of the different effects compared to the years before.
> 
> I have been very lucky to live in a country with good acces to MDMA and I have had so many, many (good) experiences with 'magic', but unfortunately also with 'meh'.
> 
> I do also think there's something different and will be following this topic from now on with great interest.
> 
> Recently I've done MDMA again but unfortunately again the underwhelming  (meh) effects for me and my friends.
> 
> Damn I miss those days with the happy, euphoric rolls, and I can confirm all the differences stated in this topic between 'magic' and 'meh' in terms of effects.
> 
> Again, following with much interest and curious about the outcomes!
> 
> 
> [edit] To contribute a bit better to this topic, the biggest differences in my opinion:
> 
> - Shorter duration
> - Higher dose needed
> - More urge to re-dose
> - Less euphoric / no 'love' feeling
> - Less stimulating, even easy to fall asleep on/after words
> - No eye wobbling
> - More spacing in your own world, instead of want to be in contact with everyone around you
> - Less talkative
> 
> And so on, all same as stated in his topic.
> 
> Funny thing is, even though slightly offtopic, after more and more underwhelming experiences, I found a new 'love' in 4-MMC, abut unfortunately the exact same thing happend to this substance.
> 
> The differences in effects for this substance are comparable, but a bit more easy to categorize, referring to pre-ban and post-ban 4-MMC.
> 
> I've not read back all the replies but has the 'changing' of this substance been mentioned as wel in this topic?
> 
> Like I said, very similar change in effects over the years, could there be some sort of synergy in that?
> 
> [/edit]



Very very interesting point about being able to fall asleep. The meh stuff I remember falling asleep 2-3 hours later.. no magic would EVER allow that, not even 6 hours honestly.


----------



## vash445

Stunned Guy said:


> Damn haven't been on Bluelight for ages (have been a lurker back in my (drug) experimental period), but I am surprised there's a topic about this matter.
> 
> I have been thinking about this theory myself for years, but honestly I just gave up and thought I just f*cked up my receptors.
> 
> I'm based in the Netherlands and have PLENTY of experience with MDMA and other substances, most of them from years back.
> 
> Basically some years back I just got tired of MDMA cause of the different effects compared to the years before.
> 
> I have been very lucky to live in a country with good acces to MDMA and I have had so many, many (good) experiences with 'magic', but unfortunately also with 'meh'.
> 
> I do also think there's something different and will be following this topic from now on with great interest.
> 
> Recently I've done MDMA again but unfortunately again the underwhelming  (meh) effects for me and my friends.
> 
> Damn I miss those days with the happy, euphoric rolls, and I can confirm all the differences stated in this topic between 'magic' and 'meh' in terms of effects.
> 
> Again, following with much interest and curious about the outcomes!
> 
> 
> [edit] To contribute a bit better to this topic, the biggest differences in my opinion:
> 
> - Shorter duration
> - Higher dose needed
> - More urge to re-dose
> - Less euphoric / no 'love' feeling
> - Less stimulating, even easy to fall asleep on/after words
> - No eye wobbling
> - More spacing in your own world, instead of want to be in contact with everyone around you
> - Less talkative
> 
> And so on, all same as stated in his topic.
> 
> Funny thing is, even though slightly offtopic, after more and more underwhelming experiences, I found a new 'love' in 4-MMC, abut unfortunately the exact same thing happend to this substance.
> 
> The differences in effects for this substance are comparable, but a bit more easy to categorize, referring to pre-ban and post-ban 4-MMC.
> 
> I've not read back all the replies but has the 'changing' of this substance been mentioned as wel in this topic?
> 
> Like I said, very similar change in effects over the years, could there be some sort of synergy in that?
> 
> [/edit]


DUDE I was just gonna mention 4-mmc. Luckily it is SUPER SUPER to make.... It's precursors are like unrelated and it's about as easy to make as meth


----------



## vash445

SympatheticMD said:


> @indigoaura
> 
> Hey you guys!  I've been gone forever but I came back with LeJunk to see what ya'll found!  Perseverance!  @Gchem I just ran across this rather long and slow podcast that made me think of you and your love for Shulgin.  I think you'll like it.  It is a history surprise about the making of MDMA.  Let's see if I can link it
> 
> http://drugpositive.org/meet-the-first-person-in-the-world-to-take-mdma-that-we-know-of.
> 
> Hope you guys are doing well!  I also randomly looked for safrole on amazon (remember I was always staunchly saying this was the issue).  It claims to sell it, but I don't know...I wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. I'm about to go look up what kind of genetic polymorphisms I have in my oxytocin receptors.



Most safrole on EBAY/etsy is fake. Really safrole PENETRATES a room. it's SUPER heady. ANYWAYS if you read the reports I found safrole confirmed by HPLC and NMR cosy TOSY etc.... And my meh was made from it and this is what was tested of mine via NMR. Effectively ending the safrole vs glyciate debate. No need to purchase safrole trust me it is a DEAD END . Pissed me off to high hell also


----------



## Stunned Guy

OpiateKiller said:


> Very very interesting point about being able to fall asleep. The meh stuff I remember falling asleep 2-3 hours later.. no magic would EVER allow that, not even 6 hours honestly.



exactly, same experience her from multiple people, very strange indeed..

On magic I could go on for hours and mostly was unable to sleep after 6+ hours, IF I could sleep at all to be honest..



vash445 said:


> DUDE I was just gonna mention 4-mmc. Luckily it is SUPER SUPER to make.... It's precursors are like unrelated and it's about as easy to make as meth



Haha really, how funny is that 

Good Mephedrone maybe even beats MDMA for me, maybe though, I enjoy both very much.

But only the MAGIC for both or course.

Do you agree there is a likewise difference in effects with pre and post ban Mephedrone compared with MDMA?

The Mephedrone these days is lacking the happy,rushy and eye wobbling feeling effect also, and many people agree with that..

I was not aware 4-MMC is that easy to make, but how are your experiences with those batches, pre or post ban effects?


----------



## psy997

Yea I don't think this is a precursor issue. It's a synthesis route issue, IMO. 

Re: sleeping after MDMA. On MagicDMA the absolute earliest I can sleep is 8hrs after dosing - I'm sensitive to stimulation - but it's usually no earlier than 9.5-10hrs that I go to sleep. On MehDMA, I can sleep 3-4hrs after dosing.


----------



## vash445

Stunned Guy said:


> exactly, same experience her from multiple people, very strange indeed..
> 
> On magic I could go on for hours and mostly was unable to sleep after 6+ hours, IF I could sleep at all to be honest..
> 
> 
> 
> Haha really, how funny is that
> 
> Good Mephedrone maybe even beats MDMA for me, maybe though, I enjoy both very much.
> 
> But only the MAGIC for both or course.
> 
> Do you agree there is a likewise difference in effects with pre and post ban Mephedrone compared with MDMA?
> 
> The Mephedrone these days is lacking the happy,rushy and eye wobbling feeling effect also, and many people agree with that..
> 
> I was not aware 4-MMC is that easy to make, but how are your experiences with those batches, pre or post ban effects?


Never done Mephedrone. Pre or post ban sorry.

Im more intrested in Mephedrone... but with a 4 hydroxyl intead of 4-methyl   it's  called 4-hydroxy-methcathinone

Its precourser is 100% unregulated  and avaiable almost anywhere. It's a simple otc oxidation nothing special needed.

Of course bluelight rules prevent me from talking about more in discussion about the synethsis or about this compound. But i'm told not milder than the Mephedron/Methcathinone Mess where you cant focus and look coked up to the gills,a bit longer in duration , stronger entactogen effects more mdma Vibes as in music is heavnly and feelings of love and peace ,at the same time more amphetamine like focus ,you can hyperfocus if you want to ,wont have 100 voices in your head each with a different mood and request

notably heavy on the body

It is probably eaiser to make than meth or mephadrone tbh.


----------



## OpiateKiller

Question for the chemically inclined and educated...

Are there any possible purification methods of MDMA such as an acetone wash on cocaine? Is there anything that can be done to possibly change meh to magic.

I have meh..and basically no desire to use it. Is there anything I can do to purify it? Like I said it hits purple marquis so it is MDMA...


----------



## babooon87

Hilopsilo said:


> Have you had MDMA you felt was magic since you started coming across MehDMA?
> 
> I only ask since now that this magic stuff is plentiful among my social circle, I do have friends that this stuff still doesn't work for. MDMA stopped working for them a while ago and no matter how much they take of this stuff its still just "shrug" for them. They end up taking multiple doses and snorting bumps of it all night like its nothing, they're having a good time, but speaking to them they say its not much of a special experience ever anymore regardless of which MDMA they take and are always chasing it. Not saying this is your case, but this feels like proof to me that just because its good shit doesn't mean one can't have ruined MDMA for themselves at some point in the past... Again, same stuff that 100mg gives me flashbacks to 10 years ago taking my first pressed pill at the peak.
> 
> I was around probably ~20 people who took varying doses of this MDMA this weekend, I can say for 100% certain it works as intended. But when the part of the crew that overdid it on the MDMA at some point, the ones who always need a way bigger dose than everyone else and don't roll often cause they say it doesn't work for them anymore, still aren't satisfied or impressed, I'm forced to believe the MDMA itself isn't the only factor in anyone's poor reactions to it.
> 
> Afterglow is still going strong today, slept like 13 hours last night. Interestingly enough, an embarrassing health condition that come up this last month that a _possible _cause was stress, started going away yesterday. Like big time going away, almost gone entirely. I was scheduled for a short medical procedure for it this week, to nip it in the bud, but they told me it wouldn't be necessary if I see signs of improvement and they can confirm upon examination. Just if it gets worse, I'd need surgery. Will update on wednesday after the exam. Couldn't be _completely _unrelated, but thought worth mentioning.


Yes, I had what would qualify as MagicDma a few times since Mehdma has appeared. I just call it normal mdma. It is certainly not a tolerance/overuse/loss of magic issue because I never came close to abusing that drug. I take it a few times a year and even went 3 years straight without touching it because I also thought the problem came from me and not the drug even if it made no sense at all. Made no sense that the effects changed so suddenly, overnight to be a tolerance thing which is normally a more of a gradual change in experience.


----------



## nznity

OpiateKiller said:


> Question for the chemically inclined and educated...
> 
> Are there any possible purification methods of MDMA such as an acetone wash on cocaine? Is there anything that can be done to possibly change meh to magic.
> 
> I have meh..and basically no desire to use it. Is there anything I can do to purify it? Like I said it hits purple marquis so it is MDMA...


Toss it Into the garbage bin xd


----------



## vash445

OpiateKiller said:


> Question for the chemically inclined and educated...
> 
> Are there any possible purification methods of MDMA such as an acetone wash on cocaine? Is there anything that can be done to possibly change meh to magic.
> 
> I have meh..and basically no desire to use it. Is there anything I can do to purify it? Like I said it hits purple marquis so it is MDMA...


if you read a few pages back we talk about running a column and it may have fixed it. Im still waiting on my friend to send a sample of it...


----------



## indigoaura

> - Shorter duration
> - Higher dose needed
> - More urge to re-dose
> - Less euphoric / no 'love' feeling
> - Less stimulating, even easy to fall asleep on/after words
> - No eye wobbling
> - More spacing in your own world, instead of want to be in contact with everyone around you
> - Less talkative



I agree with all of this. I would also add lack of tactile enhancement and music enhancement to the list. I agree with the people commenting on how easy it is to sleep afterwards. For me, it goes beyond just being able to sleep afterwards and is also an issue of feeling like taking a nap in the middle of the experience. I seriously just want to lay down under a blanket and be left alone. The hypnagogic state can be interesting on MehDMA, I will give it that.


----------



## indigoaura

@SympatheticMD Welcome back! Glad to see you again! I had been wondering what happened to you! I'll check the podcast.


----------



## vash445

Bad news my friend lost the sample for GC/MS testing, but he hopes he will find it.


----------



## OpiateKiller

vash445 said:


> Bad news my friend lost the sample for GC/MS testing, but he hopes he will find it.



what is a colcumn


----------



## vash445

OpiateKiller said:


> what is a colcumn


_Column_ chromatography is the ideal method of chromatography for purification and separation. It is a technique in which the stationary phase is solid adsorbents like _silica_ gel and activated alumina powder and the mobile phase is a liquid


----------



## OpiateKiller

vash445 said:


> _Column_ chromatography is the ideal method of chromatography for purification and separation. It is a technique in which the stationary phase is solid adsorbents like _silica_ gel and activated alumina powder and the mobile phase is a liquid



Possible to do at home with little chemistry knowledge?


----------



## vash445

OpiateKiller said:


> Possible to do at home with little chemistry knowledge?


I mean of course


----------



## user666

OpiateKiller said:


> Is it possible to do it at home with little chemistry knowledge?


It depends how diligent and intelligent you are and how quickly you can learn.
Also, you will need to invest in some pure solvents, glassware and fine silica powder.  Column chromatography usually uses different mixtures of solvents that are selected experimentally.

There are two types of preparative column chromatography:
1) gravity assisted
2) high pressure

If you choose the latter, you will need more hardware, e.g. a high pressure solvent pump, metal columns, degasser, etc...

Watch this video for an explanation:






Warning:
In USA and Canada's legal system purifying drugs with chromatography is qualified as "manufacturing".
In some tyrannical jurisdictions purchases of glassware and solvents constitute grounds for a search warrant.


----------



## mars2025

Hi,

Just finished reading this thread.  Thanks for creating it!  I've only tried MDMA a few times (US capsules and pills in Amsterdam), so while it's very, incredibly good every time, I'm just not sure if it was really "magic" or it gets even better.  My more experienced friend said it was meh, so that's what brings me here.



indigoaura said:


> if I could try some product that was magic to another experienced user.



@indigoaura : Hi indigoaura.  Thanks for all your contributions, sending that powder to EC, reporting the results and so on!
What about trying those Q-Dance presses?  They are supposed to be among the best of the Dutch megapills, and several people on this thread said they were magic.  QDance presses are also a standard item, unlike powder.  So if you, G_Chem, Le Junk, Hilopsilo and others concurred that Q-Dance was the cat's meow, that'd both falsify the initial claim and answer the practical question of most readers here. Right?

If the MAPS trial succeeds, I imagine the final product would be in pill form, like every other medicine.  It'd be a pill weighing 240mg and containing 120mg of 99.5% pure MDMA*HCl and 120 mg of inert binder, or something similar.

So working backwards, a question for chemists: is it possible / useful to wash an OG checkpoint or qdance pill in acetone to remove the binder, so you're left with just MDMA*HCl plus synthesis byproducts, basically whatever the lab made and put in the pill.  Then use an MDMA purity test from EZ-test to estimate how pure your sample is?  Or even send it to EC.  Indigo's sample was 80% pure, so how pure is the compound in those qdance pills in comparison?

Edata only tells you that a pill is 250 mg MDMA with a total mass of 500 mg.  But that could describe a future MAPS pill with 250mg of 100% pure MDMA and 250 mg of inert binder, which is probably magic.  Or 100mg of binder and 400 mg of very impure MDMA*HCl compound, which is likely meh.

If a pill is washed and revealed to have >95% pure MDMA*HCl, and it's STILL not magic, that'd be very interesting and surprising.


----------



## mars2025

Another question for chemists: why can't someone repeat the Leuckart reaction today?  Is it a lost secret or a matter of unavailable precursors?  Seems like there'd be demand for such an "old-school" product


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just finished reading this thread.  Thanks for creating it!  I've only tried MDMA a few times (US capsules and pills in Amsterdam), so while it's very, incredibly good every time, I'm just not sure if it was really "magic" or it gets even better.  My more experienced friend said it was meh, so that's what brings me here.
> 
> 
> 
> @indigoaura : Hi indigoaura.  Thanks for all your contributions, sending that powder to EC, reporting the results and so on!
> What about trying those Q-Dance presses?  They are supposed to be among the best of the Dutch megapills, and several people on this thread said they were magic.  QDance presses are also a standard item, unlike powder.  So if you, G_Chem, Le Junk, Hilopsilo and others concurred that Q-Dance was the cat's meow, that'd both falsify the initial claim and answer the practical question of most readers here. Right?
> 
> If the MAPS trial succeeds, I imagine the final product would be in pill form, like every other medicine.  It'd be a pill weighing 240mg and containing 120mg of 99.5% pure MDMA*HCl and 120 mg of inert binder, or something similar.
> 
> So working backwards, a question for chemists: is it possible / useful to wash an OG checkpoint or qdance pill in acetone to remove the binder, so you're left with just MDMA*HCl plus synthesis byproducts, basically whatever the lab made and put in the pill.  Then use an MDMA purity test from EZ-test to estimate how pure your sample is?  Or even send it to EC.  Indigo's sample was 80% pure, so how pure is the compound in those qdance pills in comparison?
> 
> Edata only tells you that a pill is 250 mg MDMA with a total mass of 500 mg.  But that could describe a future MAPS pill with 250mg of 100% pure MDMA and 250 mg of inert binder, which is probably magic.  Or 100mg of binder and 400 mg of very impure MDMA*HCl compound, which is likely meh.
> 
> If a pill is washed and revealed to have >95% pure MDMA*HCl, and it's STILL not magic, that'd be very interesting and surprising.


An acetone wash wont fix the product. Mine was self synth acetone washed...

Indigo's sample was 80% pure, so how pure is the compound in those qdance pills in comparison? My sample of mdma crystal that was then sent via nmr was a WOPPING 97% via a private lab.. IT was pretty fucking pure and when column ran there was almost no loss/sepearation i was told that it was pretty fucking pure mdma. NMR found decerpancises and was ran after i told him you didnt get high for this meh did you..

Acetone wash doesnt remove amines... chances are whatever is block the high is an amine... are re crystallization,  or column...

Distilling the freebase also maybe the issue...


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> Another question for chemists: why can't someone repeat the Leuckart reaction today?  Is it a lost secret or a matter of unavailable precursors?  Seems like there'd be demand for such an "old-school" product



Very time consuming/lots of work. Very very low yeild. Finky synethsis  vs other routes


----------



## Le Junk

This is insane. Is it possible the Chinese have developed a new drug that tests positive on GCMS as MDMA but is a different drug entirely? It is crazy to think that current MDMA is testing positive as just MDMA but has absolutely none of the characteristics associated with MDMA. Lovey-dovey, touchy-feely, feelings of love and empathy, completely dilated pupils, openness, loving everyone around you, incredible sex, next day afterglow, etc. etc. etc. None of those characteristics are present in today’s MDMA. And it’s not just some of the MDMA that’s like this, it’s most of the MDMA that’s like this nowadays. Finding magic MDMA today is like finding a needle in a haystack. Something has changed significantly and it’s widespread and commonplace. Whether it’s pills or crystals or powder, it’s pretty much all the same. There is one common thread here and it is the missing link to this entire tale. The manufacturers know. That’s for sure. And that’s why all of today’s pills have 250 mg in them versus 80 to 120 mg in pills for the past. This is crazy and frustrating. I can assure you the answer is very simple. The question is what the fuck is it and how the fuck long will it take us to figure it out? Such a sad time in the world for drugs. The beautiful and true cocaine high was completely ruined by levamisole. Now it’s MDMA’a turn apparently.


----------



## Le Junk

SympatheticMD said:


> @indigoaura - I posted a podcast somewhere in this recent thread. Listen to it, even though it is slow.  You'll be interested to learn something about Shulgin and his experience of MDMA





SympatheticMD said:


> @indigoaura
> 
> Hey you guys!  I've been gone forever but I came back with LeJunk to see what ya'll found!  Perseverance!  @Gchem I just ran across this rather long and slow podcast that made me think of you and your love for Shulgin.  I think you'll like it.  It is a history surprise about the making of MDMA.  Let's see if I can link it
> 
> http://drugpositive.org/meet-the-first-person-in-the-world-to-take-mdma-that-we-know-of.
> 
> Hope you guys are doing well!  I also randomly looked for safrole on amazon (remember I was always staunchly saying this was the issue).  It claims to sell it, but I don't know...I wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. I'm about to go look up what kind of genetic polymorphisms I have in my oxytocin receptors.



Welcome back bro! I’m back as well. I want to be present when the mystery is finally solved   My theory is also the safrole (or lack thereof). But time will tell.


----------



## mars2025

vash445 said:


> My sample of mdma crystal that was then sent via nmr was a WOPPING 97% via a private lab.. IT was pretty fucking pure and when column ran there was almost no loss/sepearation i was told that it was pretty fucking pure mdma. NMR found decerpancises and was ran after i told him you didnt get high for this meh did you..



@vash445: Thanks for all your work on this thread!  If your mdma sample had no effect despite being 97% pure, that's an extraordinary finding!  In a scientific setting, all aspects would need to be replicated.

No effect: you personally observed 5 people take 1.3-1.5mg / kg body weight and show no pupil dilation?  Like Shulgin said, people could take MDMA and say "nothing happened."  And Hilo just said that even magicDMA didn't work for some of his/her friends.  So while I totally believe your friend when they say "they didn't get high from this meh," the scientific standard of proof calls for more data before we go looking at NMRs.

97%: would be good to get independent labs to confirm this 97%.  If someone personally dropped off a sample with saferparty.ch in Zurich or Jellinek in Amsterdam, and both of those labs said it's 97% MDMA*HCl, then that's established.  If EC says it's 97, that works too.  Even a consumer MDMA purity test from EZ could confirm purity in the 80-100% range, though it can't distinguish MDxx compounds.

97%: what's the history of the small lab that produced your 97% sample?  If they've been churning 97% for years, then there is a strong prior that the sample is indeed 97%.  On the other hand, if it's their first or second attempt, such purity seems difficult to achieve.  Most crystal samples are reported at 50-80% pure.  If the lab is experienced, has their earlier product been magic or meh?



vash445 said:


> An acetone wash wont fix the product



Yes, I read that, but that's not what I was getting at.  We simply want to determine the purity of the compound that goes into q-dance pills, so we use AW to remove the binder.  Q-dance either is or isn't magic (still hoping some experienced rollers would make the calls on that...)  And Q-dance compound maybe >95% pure or it may be 75.

If it's only 75% and meh -- no surprise there.  In my mind, 135mg of 75% purity is not the same as 100mg of 100% purity, not when it comes to subtle effects.  If the 75% compound happens to work (like the old Leuckart reaction), good for you, don't change a thing, but you can't draw any practical conclusions why it works or doesn't because everyone's 75% is different.   Conversely, if 135mg of the 75% pure (impure) product was meh, you can't predict that 100mg of the same compound at 100% purity would also be meh.

Now if Q-dance's compound is both >95% pure AND magic, then all is well and as expected, chemically speaking.  That's what G_Chem was saying, I think.

Le Junk's mystery would present itself only if the compound was ~100% pure MDMA*HCl (not MDPH, not another salt etc) and NOT magic.


----------



## mars2025

Le Junk said:


> It is crazy to think that current MDMA is testing positive as just MDMA but has absolutely none of the characteristics associated with MDMA. Lovey-dovey, touchy-feely, feelings of love and empathy, completely dilated pupils, openness, loving everyone around you, incredible sex, next day afterglow, etc. etc. etc.



Le Junk, sir, your name will go down in the history books of MDMA! Tricky part is, them damn pills DO produce some or all of these effects.  r/MDMA is full of saucer eyes and I personally observed the same.  It's just that the more mental effects are not consistent or something.  One time you may feel like it's the happiest moment of your life, and a simple touch feels more pleasurable than sex (tactile enhancement.)  Another time the music may sound incredibly good.  Or lovey-dovey, empathy, endactic, next day glow and so on.  Some/many pills have some degree of these effects for some of the people some of the time!

I have another long-shot theory that one's experience may be somewhat affected by what you're told.  If your source says this batch is fire, and you trust the source, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  And if you rolled hard on the same batch, or another batch with the same taste and especially smell, all those associations kick in again to enhance the roll, especially memory recall due to smell.  Can an inert compound that merely tastes and smells like someone's long-loved batch of MDMA induce some of the same effects?  Depending on the power of the individual's mind, there may be something to this, like Shulgin's story with undissolved sugar.


----------



## vash445

Le Junk said:


> Welcome back bro! I’m back as well. I want to be present when the mystery is finally solved   My theory is also the safrole (or lack thereof). But time will tell.



Is it possible the Chinese have developed a new drug that tests positive on GCMS as MDMA but is a different drug entirely?

NO , Ive told you my meh MDMA WAS SAFROLE based... that is not it... That theroy DIED in NOV if you read the forum, my meh batch for sure... I know it is safrole based because I traded safrole for mdma and the chemist even complained he didnt get high

This has to be an impurity issue. because my meh MDMA batch after being column ran became clear NMR vs when it was dirty. The magic and meh became more inline once purified. 

Whatever it is is an amine and not easily cleaned... This is what the evidence points to


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> Le Junk, sir, your name will go down in the history books of MDMA! Tricky part is, them damn pills DO produce some or all of these effects.  r/MDMA is full of saucer eyes and I personally observed the same.  It's just that the more mental effects are not consistent or something.  One time you may feel like it's the happiest moment of your life, and a simple touch feels more pleasurable than sex (tactile enhancement.)  Another time the music may sound incredibly good.  Or lovey-dovey, empathy, endactic, next day glow and so on.  Some/many pills have some degree of these effects for some of the people some of the time!
> 
> I have another long-shot theory that one's experience may be somewhat affected by what you're told.  If your source says this batch is fire, and you trust the source, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  And if you rolled hard on the same batch, or another batch with the same taste and especially smell, all those associations kick in again to enhance the roll, especially memory recall due to smell.  Can an inert compound that merely tastes and smells like someone's long-loved batch of MDMA induce some of the same effects?  Depending on the power of the individual's mind, there may be something to this, like Shulgin's story with undissolved sugar.



We had me, the MDMA cook, THE MDMA lab testing tech. AND and MDMA virgin 200mg nothing... 400mg was MEH for sure... PS we had NO EXPECTATIONS and this was private lab based MDMA... We thought it was his anti depression med but NOPE 4 people had no mdma effects it was meh until 400mg. The lab tech thought it was gonna be fire because it tested at 97%... this is much more then someone telling me it's fire or this is junk... because my expectations with the lab results saying 97% would tell me it's fire... it was not...

ALso I DID NOT TELL these people if the mdma was meh or magic everyone complained about it I only told the virgin it tested at 97% percent... Mine is private lab synth and private lab test results with this NMR... I trust MY RESULTS over EC/Dancesafe at this point. ALso we have no more of this meh to send into a public lab it was been purified and run thru the column already there was only like 1-2 grams.... You are just gonna have to take my word for it. ALso We don't need a second lab... The running of the column proved it was pure as he said their was not much impurity when he ran the column so... PLease read what we have done I would like not to repeat myself and clog the thread with theories we have already crossed off...

What that impurity is IDK, he misplaced the the stuff to test so we are back to square one unless someone sends me a few grams of meh to purify and see if the scan shows the same results...


----------



## vash445

I basically bet my left nut it is a minor impurity that cann't be easily distilled or cleaned. It's what ALL THE evidence is pointing to with what we have collected. Our NMR of 3 mehs prove it is MDMA, it cann't be anything else... 

However the picture of MDMA is unclear unlike the magic sample which have a perfect NMR

@mars2025 @Le Junk


----------



## mars2025

vash445 said:


> We had me, the MDMA cook, THE MDMA lab testing tech.



Ok, that's convincing.  I'd say negative result is well established via bioassay



vash445 said:


> I trust MY RESULTS over EC/Dancesafe



As well you should.  Every scientist worth their salt does.  And yeah, I trust your data.  But another lab still needs to confirm it to eliminate all doubt.  Need to confirm that it's 97% 3,4-MDMA, not mixed with another MDxx etc. I don't know the specifics here, but that's just standard procedure in any research.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, that sort of thing...  And seeing no effects from 200 mg of 97% pure 3,4-MDMA in four different subjects is indeed an extraordinary claim.

Regarding a few grams of meh, I really think something like Q-dance's Skype or Checkpoint's Reddit (with pill binder removed via AW) would be the best candidates for further study.  You'll never run out; your findings would be broadly relevant; you can compare your purity measurements to edata values without sending in samples and so on.


----------



## mars2025

vash445 said:


> I basically bet my left nut it is a minor impurity



I'll defer to your expertise then, esp considering the nature of the proposed wager   But do you believe the same, ultra-potent roll-killing impurity is hiding in most samples of mehDMA today (those that are pure MDMA to begin with)?  That the same impurity results with different precursors and different synthesis routes?  And every sample or pill of magicDMA, like Hilo's 91% powder, has somehow avoided this one impurity?


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> Ok, that's convincing.  I'd say negative result is well established via bioassay
> 
> 
> 
> As well you should.  Every scientist worth their salt does.  And yeah, I trust your data.  But another lab still needs to confirm it to eliminate all doubt.  Need to confirm that it's 97% 3,4-MDMA, not mixed with another MDxx etc. I don't know the specifics here, but that's just standard procedure in any research.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, that sort of thing...  And seeing no effects from 200 mg of 97% pure 3,4-MDMA in four different subjects is indeed an extraordinary claim.
> 
> Regarding a few grams of meh, I really think something like Q-dance's Skype or Checkpoint's Reddit (with pill binder removed via AW) would be the best candidates for further study.  You'll never run out; your findings would be broadly relevant; you can compare your purity measurements to edata values without sending in samples and so on.





mars2025 said:


> Ok, that's convincing.  I'd say negative result is well established via bioassay
> 
> 
> 
> As well you should.  Every scientist worth their salt does.  And yeah, I trust your data.  But another lab still needs to confirm it to eliminate all doubt.  Need to confirm that it's 97% 3,4-MDMA, not mixed with another MDxx etc. I don't know the specifics here, but that's just standard procedure in any research.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, that sort of thing...  And seeing no effects from 200 mg of 97% pure 3,4-MDMA in four different subjects is indeed an extraordinary claim.
> 
> Regarding a few grams of meh, I really think something like Q-dance's Skype or Checkpoint's Reddit (with pill binder removed via AW) would be the best candidates for further study.  You'll never run out; your findings would be broadly relevant; you can compare your purity measurements to edata values without sending in samples and so on.




Again NOTHING WAS ADDED TO OUR BATCH... I KNOW EXACTLY HOW IT WAS SYNTHED down to mol's down to if they used methylamine. or nitromethane... I know VERY FINITE details about it there is no way of another MDxx AS WELL.. I assure you NOTHING was added, this impurity has drastic effects in mg dosages... I do not want to disclose much BUT I KNOW MORE THEN ANYONE about that batch the chain on it is VERY close 

Here is the deal safrole was converted to MDP2P using benz wacker... MDP2P was animated with methylamine with Al/Hg. I know much much more but you get the picture.....

Also WE HAVE MUCH MORE TESTS then EC or DD will ever have. I assure you if WE CANT FIND IT they wont... and it will just show the same thing... this is the issue we seem to be encountering

And we don't need a second lab because the COLUMN proved 97%... what don't you understand? That when he ran the column the product showed it was  clean 97% pure... almost no bands of contamination... we don't we a second lab there was other ways for us to show purity.... 

AGAIN this MEH mdma sample was TESTED every way thru sunday and we had a lot of people look at that report and come back it's MDMA.... TRUST me my meh IS MDMA and I know the way it was made... It was a bit funny on the NMR vs magic... when the column was ran after the product became clean....


----------



## vash445

That the same impurity results with different precursors and different synthesis routes?

We have no idea... but reports of that popping up in our early lab results we found online... multiple routes  impurities block the mdma high... please read the articles we posted earlier they post about 3-4 different routes explaining it...


----------



## mars2025

vash445 said:


> this impurity has drastic effects in mg dosages...



Ok, call me convinced.  Suppose this 5mg impurity can completely negate the effect of 200 mg of MDMA.  Do you believe the Dutch megapills have the same impurity?  200mg megapill will definitely roll, it's not nothing by any stretch, but some aspects of the high seem to be missing or reduced.

Are we dealing with two completely separate problems here:

1.  Why some MDMA tests at 97% but does not work at all
2.  Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high




vash445 said:


> but reports of that popping up in our early lab results we found online... less multiple routes block the mdma high...



Can you explain that again?



vash445 said:


> if WE CANT FIND IT they wont



Agreed, they won't.  But there's a small chance that they would've come back saying your sample was not .97 but .60.  Meaning something went wrong in your purity measurement or calculation.  Don't ask me how.  It's unlikely, but so is the proposed ultra-potent impurity.  The purpose of getting a second purity measurement would be simply to eliminate this objection completely.  Though I actually find your theory more likely, it won't be taken seriously by folks on that other chemistry board (I skimmed that thread), other researchers and so on, not without corroborating purity data from a known public lab.


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> Ok, call me convinced.  Suppose this 5mg impurity can completely negate the effect of 200 mg of MDMA.  Do you believe the Dutch megapills have the same impurity?  200mg megapill will definitely roll, it's not nothing by any stretch, but some aspects of the high seem to be missing or reduced.
> 
> Are we dealing with two completely separate problems here:
> 
> 1.  Why some MDMA tests at 97% but does not work at all
> 2.  Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain that again?


1. Why some MDMA tests at 97% but does not work at all

because these impurities block sert release in sub mg dosage..... and release 1/10 the ammount of serotin please read the report...


2. Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high
Because binders and filler effect oral bioavailability . and good presser like checkpoint and the few other produce semi magic pills.


The FDA only requires that you get 80% to 125% of the drug into your bloodstream from a generic medication compared to the original drug. What’s even more concerning is that there are often many different generic versions of the same drug, and each of these may be different as well. Consider this: If you take a generic which only meets the minimum requirement and refill that prescription with one that’s at the maximum limit, you’ve potentially increased the amount you get into your body by as much as 45% percentage points – and you would have no way of knowing this from the labels, but it could certainly affect you. The opposite could also happen, and you would be getting a lot less drug than you were previously – which could also affect you.


TLDR basically the dutch are hiring pro pill pressers who understand pharamacology and binders and fllers and are pushing 125% + bioavailability with the binders/ dissolution... Binding a pill properly is HARD WORK... There are only a few true pro pressers is my guess tbh hence some magic... increase in meh but it is still meh...


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> Ok, call me convinced.  Suppose this 5mg impurity can completely negate the effect of 200 mg of MDMA.  Do you believe the Dutch megapills have the same impurity?  200mg megapill will definitely roll, it's not nothing by any stretch, but some aspects of the high seem to be missing or reduced.
> 
> Are we dealing with two completely separate problems here:
> 
> 1.  Why some MDMA tests at 97% but does not work at all
> 2.  Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain that again?



*Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters*
Ecstasy samples often contain byproducts of the illegal, uncontrolled synthesis of N-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxy-amphetamine or 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA). MDMA and eight chemically defined byproducts of MDMA synthesis were investigated for their interaction with the primary sites of action of MDMA, namely the human plasmalemmal monamine transporters for norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine [(norepinephrine transporter (NET), serotonin transporter (SERT), and dopamine transporter (DAT)]. SK-N-MC neuroblastoma and human embryonic kidney cells stably transfected with the transporter cDNA were used for uptake and release experiments. Two of the eight compounds, 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine (12) and N-formyl-1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine (13) had uptake inhibitory potencies with IC50 values in the low micromolar range similar to MDMA. Compounds with nitro instead of amino groups and a phenylethenyl instead of a phenylethyl structure or a formamide or acetamide modification had IC50 values beyond 100 microM. MDMA, 12, and 13 were examined for induction of carrier-mediated release by superfusion of transporter expressing cells preloaded with the metabolically inert transporter substrate [3H]1-methyl-4-phenylpyridinium. MDMA induced release mediated by NET, SERT, or DAT with EC50 values of 0.64, 1.12, and 3.24 microM, respectively. 12 weakly released from NET- and SERT-expressing cells with maximum effects less than one-tenth of that of MDMA and did not release from DAT cells. 13 had no releasing activity. 12 and 13 inhibited release induced by MDMA, and the concentration dependence of this effect correlated with their uptake inhibitory potency at the various transporters. These results do not support a neurotoxic potential of the examined ecstasy synthesis byproducts and provide interesting structure-activity relationships on the transporters.




			Sci-Hub | Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, 314(1), 346–354 | 10.1124/jpet.105.084426


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> Ok, call me convinced.  Suppose this 5mg impurity can completely negate the effect of 200 mg of MDMA.  Do you believe the Dutch megapills have the same impurity?  200mg megapill will definitely roll, it's not nothing by any stretch, but some aspects of the high seem to be missing or reduced.
> 
> Are we dealing with two completely separate problems here:
> 
> 1.  Why some MDMA tests at 97% but does not work at all
> 2.  Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain that again?
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, they won't.  But there's a small chance that they would've come back saying your sample was not .97 but .60.  Meaning something went wrong in your purity measurement or calculation.  Don't ask me how.  It's unlikely, but so is the proposed ultra-potent impurity.  The purpose of getting a second purity measurement would be simply to eliminate this objection completely.  Though I actually find your theory more likely


AGAIN OUR COLUMN would have found out it if was .6 or .7  instead of .97... again read what I wrote. UNLESS YOU KNOW some chemistry please do not inject anymore. WHEN he ran the column he was shocked to find it was almost PURE MDMA. if the machine is broken/ miscalibrated like you claim as a small possibility, the column would have detected the discrepancy.  You are flooding the forum with useless interjections. Im sorry EC would not DISPUTE our results it would show high purity MDMA ... I hope you understand that a second result WILL NOT SHOW ANYTHING NOR CAN WE DO ONE all that MDMA has been purified. I HAVE PULLED SO MANY STRING TO GET THAT NMR running and done. Please understand that IT CANN'T BE CUT or impure because it is DIRECT FROM THE SOURCE. THE chemist even complained IT IS NOT ACTIVE... like don't you get it?

TAKE OUR COLUMN RESULTS  AS confirmation or provide  4 grams of MEHmdma . OTHERWISE PLEASE DO NOT INTERJECT anymore. YOU HAVE NOT READ WHAT WE HAVE DONE BECAUSE I'M TIRED OF REPEATING MYSELF. It's clear WHAT WE HAVE DONE... MALDI shows the mol weigh as MDMA. NMR  shows it's pretty fucking pure  MDMA, we def see something GC/MS doesn't see and TRUST ME THEY WILL SEE IT AS HIGH PURITY MDMA I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU BRO ..  Please reread since Nov if you want to be WELL INFORMED.  ..... if you do not understand  what has been said since Nov then you probably won't at this point. Sorry.... Again the micro impurity is facts read what we posted earlier...


----------



## mars2025

vash445 said:


> 2. Why some Dutch MDMA pills seem to be missing the "magic", while still providing a pretty good high
> Because binders and filler effect oral bioavailability . and good presser like checkpoint and the few other produce semi magic pills.



If binders and filler are the only issue, and pills are "semi-magic", then why isn't checkpoint's 84% crystal fully magic?


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> If binders and filler are the only issue, and pills are "semi-magic", then why isn't checkpoint's 84% crystal fully magic?


WHy is my PRIVATE LAB TESTED 97% MDMA inactive... I CANT FUCKING TELL YOU BRO . I have no idea... that entire 84% is just an fake number it isnt real... just a catch all

What I can tell you is is ran my stuff thru a column and the graph became more clean.. I do not know if it is more active...


----------



## mars2025

vash445 said:


> that entire 84% is just an fake number it isnt real



84% is real, or it could be.  If you buy pure crystal compound in Amsterdam and take it to Jellinek, when you call for the results, they'll tell you it's 84%.  If you take the same sample to Energy Control or saferparty, they'll tell you it's 100%.  (Assuming, of course, that it is.)  So translated from Dutch, "84%" means 100% pure MDMA*HCl.  When I said, "checkpoint's 84% crystal," I meant (nearly) 100% pure MDMA*HCl, nearly the same purity as MAPs and Shulgin.


----------



## user666

Was the synth route used to make your meh MDMA from Safrole,  the Wacker oxidation and amination with methylamine over Al/Hg ?



vash445 said:


> NO , I've told you, my meh MDMA WAS SAFROLE based... that is not it...


So do you think the impurity comes from the Safrole or one of the reagents?



vash445 said:


> Whatever it is is an amine and not easily cleaned... This is what the evidence points to


Could it be an MDMA dimer ?


----------



## user666

vash445 said:


> ... *almost* no bands of contamination...


I wish you had concentrated that "almost"-fraction and tested it.



vash445 said:


> This has to be an impurity issue. because my meh MDMA batch after being column ran became clear NMR vs when it was dirty. The magic and meh became more inline once purified.


Would it not be a good idea to run the column again and DISCARD the MDMA and identify the concentrated remainder ?


----------



## user666

Le Junk said:


> It is crazy to think that current MDMA is testing positive as just MDMA but has absolutely none of the characteristics associated with MDMA.
> Lovey-dovey,
> touchy-feely,
> feelings of love and empathy,
> completely dilated pupils,
> openness,
> loving everyone around you,
> incredible sex,
> next day afterglow, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> None of those characteristics are present in today’s MDMA.


I noticed that once in a while somebody comes around and attributes all of these deficiencies to *tolerance*., while completely ignoring the same corroborating observations from 1st time users.

This is why you should not leave this thread alone for so long again.  We need such a senior member as you, to put these dismissive people on the right track, because some of them seem to be knowledgeable scientists that can contribute positively to solving this enigma.


----------



## vash445

user666 said:


> Was the synth route used to make your meh MDMA from Safrole,  the Wacker oxidation and amination with methylamine over Al/Hg ?
> 
> 
> So do you think the impurity comes from the Safrole or one of the reagents?
> 
> 
> Could it be an MDMA dimer ?



Was the synth route used to make your meh MDMA from Safrole, the Wacker oxidation and amination with methylamine over Al/Hg ?   Yes


Mdma dimmer... NMR SHOWED NO DIMMER.. according to 2-3 people reading the NMR...


----------



## vash445

user666 said:


> I wish you had concentrated that "almost"-fraction and tested it.
> 
> 
> Would it not be a good idea to run the column again and DISCARD the MDMA and identify the concentrated remainder ?




Would it not be a good idea to run the column again and DISCARD the MDMA and identify the concentrated remainder ?

We lost the fractions  so we have no idea... trust me THAT WAS THE PLAN... its like you guys dont read this forum... we are hoping he misplaced them... He just doesnt remember where. He knows he has the elute bands... he just isn't sure where he placed them. Hopefully he finds them soon. He wasn't GC/MS certified yet so that's why he stashed them now he can't find them.


----------



## vash445

So do you think the impurity comes from the Safrole or one of the reagents?


I think it just comes from synthesis doesn't matter if it is safrole or glyciate.. or even the route. The problem stems in animation.

My guess is it happens during animation


----------



## vash445

mars2025 said:


> 84% is real, or it could be. If you buy pure crystal compound in Amsterdam and take it to Jellinek, when you call for the results, they'll tell you it's 84%. If you take the same sample to Energy Control or saferparty, they'll tell you it's 100%. (Assuming, of course, that it is.) So translated from Dutch, "84%" means 100% pure MDMA*HCl. When I said, "checkpoint's 84% crystal," I meant (nearly) 100% pure MDMA*HCl, nearly the same purity as MAPs and Shulgin.



84% is the .hcl... 100% is the freebase....

Trust me even checkpoint's is only high 90's it isnt 99.9%...


----------



## indigoaura

I step away for a few days...

@vash445 I don't think you should be offended at the suggestion of getting an external confirmation of your findings. In any kind of respectable research, findings have to be replicated in order to be taken seriously. I don't see it as a suggestion of error on your part, but as a way to add further evidence to the argument. Good arguments are supported with as much evidence as possible.

Also, since samples/results have been lost and you are back around to square 1, would it be possible to synth again and repeat the process? Also, are you still planning to consume the product that was cleaned with the column to see if the effects have changed?

As for the MDMA dimer, I thought that was one of the theories tossed around about the dirty NMR results? Was that theory dis-proven? 

@mars2025 I am not opposed to trying a Qdance pill, if I could actually wash it and remove the binders and consume it in a safe dosage. I am not taking 300 mg of MDMA at once. Nope. Never done it. Not gonna do it. Friends used to take 2 pills at once, and that was not a road I ever went down. In any case, I will keep my eyes open for Qdance pills for the sake of research. 

Your comments about all these observations being due to mental suggestion, or set/setting etc. just do not correlate with the volume of experiences that have been discussed here. There is too much consistency when groups of people all try the same product (especially when those groups are a mix of virgin/experienced users).

@vash445 As for safrole...we really have not spent a lot of time discussing how deforestation has impacted safrole supply. There are many kinds of sassafras trees that produce safrole. Not all of those trees produce the same compounds. From Wikipedia: "Steam distillation of dried root bark produces an essential oil which has a high safrole content, as well as significant amounts of varying other chemicals such as camphor, eugenol (including 5-methoxyeugenol), asarone, and various sesquiterpenes. Many other trees contain similarly high percentages and their extracted oils are sometimes referred to as sassafras oil,[34] which once was extensively used as a fragrance in perfumes and soaps, food and for aromatherapy."









						Sassafras - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




So...there are relevant questions related to where a sample of safrole came from, what type of tree it was extracted from, and how pure the safrole is. Are there any other compounds in in? Do those other compounds have an effect on synthesis?

Unfortunately, I don't think we can 100% cross safrole off the list of possible issues because not all safrole is exactly the same.


----------



## indigoaura

> Le Junk, sir, your name will go down in the history books of MDMA! Tricky part is, them damn pills DO produce some or all of these effects. r/MDMA is full of saucer eyes and I personally observed the same. It's just that the more mental effects are not consistent or something. One time you may feel like it's the happiest moment of your life, and a simple touch feels more pleasurable than sex (tactile enhancement.) Another time the music may sound incredibly good. Or lovey-dovey, empathy, endactic, next day glow and so on. Some/many pills have some degree of these effects for some of the people some of the time!
> 
> I have another long-shot theory that one's experience may be somewhat affected by what you're told. If your source says this batch is fire, and you trust the source, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And if you rolled hard on the same batch, or another batch with the same taste and especially smell, all those associations kick in again to enhance the roll, especially memory recall due to smell. Can an inert compound that merely tastes and smells like someone's long-loved batch of MDMA induce some of the same effects? Depending on the power of the individual's mind, there may be something to this, like Shulgin's story with undissolved sugar.



@mars2025

Here are my issues with these theories...

For some reason, for a good 5+ years, MDMA was a very consistent and reliable experience. Watching a newbie take it was especially consistent. Obviously not going to post for privacy reasons, but I had an 8mm camera. I have videos of 20-25 people rolling face. I have photos. Even if the internal feeling is subjective, I was sometimes sober at parties and I know what rolling people LOOKED like. It had absolutely nothing to do with what people were told. We were often told pills were "the shit" (we didn't say fire back then), and then they were duds and turned out to be DXM or something. It was good or it wasn't. When it was good, the same thing happened every time.

When you have groups of people taking lab tested MDMA and none of them have saucer eyes, and none of them display typical visual rolling "tells," then there is a problem. Its not just that nobody feels like they are rolling, nobody looks like they are rolling.

Why was it so consistent for so long? Why was it that when the product was good, ALL of the people rolled and had the full experience?

Then suddenly, one day, it just becomes a dice roll? "Well, sometimes you roll and sometimes you don't." That doesn't make any sense to me.

I could buy into the tolerance/damage argument if I wasn't seeing the same lackluster responses in MDMA virgins. I would also be more likely to accept it if someone I trusted had product that was magic, and I took it and felt no magic.

Obviously, some people are getting the good stuff. I was at an EDM event and witnessed the classic, visual signs of rolling in a small subsection of the attendees. But there was an obvious line between the majority of the crowd who were standing around spaced out with their arms crossed, and the smaller number of people rubbing each other's bodies and hair, pulling their clothes off, and dancing like fools.


----------



## vash445

@indigoaura      Resynthing wont do anything because what if it is magic...

Also he can't even find the repurified stuff so we are back to square 1...

I have access to safrole but who knows if more will be made. We want to figure this out before we proceed to be honest.

Also as far as safrole... safrole is safrole... AND WAS DISTILLED before making MDP2P. It does not matter where that safrole came from.. or what is in it EXCEPT ANTHOLE because the bp is very close and would make PMMA vs MDMA.... But seriously this is not an issue it was made as distilled safrole and was def confirmed safrole of VERY high purity to begin with and no anthole was detected......

Also I'm not offended but for the 100x time WE have no more of the MDMA to test. IF we did I would... Otherwise You are gonna have to take the column results as second confirmation enough. I'm SORRY but that's just how it goes with what we have...


----------



## indigoaura

> Resynthing wont do anything because what if it is magic...



That doesn't make sense. If the exact same people make it the exact same way as before, then you should end up with the exact same product. Why would you get a different result when using the same recipe?

"Safrole is safrole" sounds an awful lot like "MDMA is MDMA."



> Also i have no idea if he has the repurifyed stuff so we are back to square 1...



What is happening to all the stuff?


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> That doesn't make sense. If the exact same people make it the exact same way as before, then you should end up with the exact same product. Why would you get a different result when using the same recipe?
> 
> "Safrole is safrole" sounds an awful lot like "MDMA is MDMA."
> 
> 
> 
> What is happening to all the stuff?




"Safrole is safrole" sounds an awful lot like "MDMA is MDMA."


Take it for what you will. Once distilled. It is pure safrole nothing is left.... just like when converting glyciate to PMK it is MDP2P what we do know about the MDMA is that the impurity is messing up NMR... so we know know all MDMA is not equal... This was basically proven MDMA IS MDMA plus some minor impurity... it doesn't matter if it is safrole or PMK glycidate... we do run into inactive issues either way. THE PRECURSOR doesn't matter so SAFROLE IS SAFROLE... Sorry for my confusing rant I do not know how to explain it.


That doesn't make sense. If the exact same people make it the exact same way as before, then you should end up with the exact same product. Why would you get a different result when using the same recipe?

Broken heating mantels, low quality stir bars, effecting the boiling point. The purity of methylamine or benzoquinone  because he made the benzoquinone  from hydroquinone . There are a lot of factors that change even following the recipe.. Hence GMP production ..... Even simple things like the pressure of humidity/temp of the room can effect certain reactions... He replaced his heating mantel for 1 SO MAKING it exactly the same way thru out the window at that exact second...

Effect of Temperature and Relative Humidity on the Reaction Kinetics of an Oxygen Scavenger Based on Gallic Acid








						Effect of Temperature and Relative Humidity on the Reaction Kinetics of an Oxygen Scavenger Based on Gallic Acid
					

Gallic acid (GA) is a potential oxygen scavenger for food packaging applications. In this study we investigated the effect of temperature and relative humidity (RH) on the reaction kinetics of an oxygen scavenger consisting of GA and sodium carbonate. The reaction was described by a second-order...




					www.frontiersin.org


----------



## vash445

indigoaura said:


> What is happening to all the stuff?



I told you it was misplaced. I assure you noone is taking it. He even lost the gram-2 of impure stuff I sent for a while before he cleaned it.


----------



## vash445

OpiateKiller said:


> buy one hell of EZoo trip


Ive outgrown the "mainstream " fests.... and prefer the HIPPY camping transformational EDM fests... just my preference LIB  (lighting in a bottle) over EDC/coachella


----------



## Hilopsilo

https://www.leafly.ca/news/cannabis-101/list-major-cannabinoids-cannabis-effects 

Thought you all might find this interesting! 
_
"Most cannabinoids will not get you high
THC is the only plant cannabinoid that you know for sure has clear intoxicating effects on its own. There is some evidence to suggest that THCV may also have intoxicating effects, although whether it does may depend on dose. However, like most other plant cannabinoids, THCV is usually not present in significant quantities in commercial strains and cannabis products.

While most plant cannabinoids are not intoxicating themselves, their presence can influence how THC affects you. The best example of this comes from CBD. Even though it wouldn’t get you high by itself, it influences the way that THC interacts with the CB1 receptors in your endocannabinoid system, and can therefore influence exactly how a cannabis product will affect you.

THCV may also influence THC’s effects. At relatively low doses, THCV appears to diminish THC’s ability to activate CB1 receptors, like CBD. However, at relatively high doses, THCV may start to activate CB1 receptors, like THC. The exact dose that you consume can greatly influence how a compound affects you. But because THCV and the other, lesser-known cannabinoids are generally less abundant in cannabis, they have also been studied much less. There’s a lot more for us to learn"_

I know MDMA is a far cry from a plant that grew out of the ground, but I see a parallel between this and the precursor contaminants theory. Subbing weed's natural variation of cannabinoids for the "entourage" of slight (or not so slight) precursor(s) leftover in MDMA. MDMA's version of natural variation could just be the unavoidable array of uncontrolled clandestine factors lol?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Recently taken samples from major well known vendor and the magic mdma is def in full supply still holland you have to know what to look for.

NZ is getting flooded with so much mdma the price per ounce dropped to crazy low prices and so silly now mdma is probably the same price as america. Over a x3 price drop per gram and alot of it is good product. Chinese seem to be the big players mass smuggling it here and totally destoryed the prices seeing alot more major busts though.


----------



## Brnoxoxo

Firsty, I don't know if you saw this study, it might help you.

Another things is about this topic - it has almost 200 pages. For some unknown reason you still use it and I really hope this is not your main comunication channel. You post charts, data, websites, studies...Why not use Google Drive or other service to share these information much efficiently so you don't have to refer chart from page 119 from 1 year ago.

Last note is about your goals. What do you want to prove with this topic? That MehDMA and MagicDMA exist and are different? Then I don't understand why is this topic still active. Because all your later work here is based on premise that MehDMA exists. Cool. But majority of academic community doesn't believe it. Why should you care? Because they are far better than you in finding the culprit of differences in MDMA batches. They have better equipment, more knowledge, more time etc. That's a fact. So my suggestion is to prove drug researchers that mehDMA & MagicDMA is relevant topic with potentially big impact on underground therapies using MDMA. I have spoken.


----------



## RV Mystery Journey

TripSitterNZ said:


> Recently taken samples from major well known vendor and the magic mdma is def in full supply still holland you have to know what to look for.
> 
> NZ is getting flooded with so much mdma the price per ounce dropped to crazy low prices and so silly now mdma is probably the same price as america. Over a x3 price drop per gram and alot of it is good product. Chinese seem to be the big players mass smuggling it here and totally destoryed the prices seeing alot more major busts though.


Chinese playing major league smugglers. Tell me something new. I heard good things about their MXE a few years back but I also heard they mix up drugs in their factories and sometimes send the wrong ones to vendors.

Haha I am sure it is just an instance I read about not how it is regularly.


----------



## G_Chem

vash445 said:


> So talked to NMR guy as we seem to be exhausted almost every test. Lucky me I remember something.
> 
> Me: Anyways my only guess now is maybe the skill of crystallization such a .h20 entering the crystal lattice
> 
> People were talking about a while fluffy snow product being magic that hints either borohydrides or column ran product...
> 
> Def not the MDMA boulders we use to
> 
> Him: Water in lattice shouldn't matter especially if one lets crystallization happen in touches and slowly.  Then it's pure on the insides
> 
> Me: pretty sure I read that it effect bioavailability strangely enough read articles brlow
> 
> His message
> As for the polymorphs, I 100% should have been able to considered it as a potential issue. Its been a while since, but i was certainly taught of its existance. those papers were very good. And opens the door for some new tests.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polymorphism: The Phenomenon Affecting the Performance   of Drugs
> 
> 
> Polymorphism is the ability of solid materials to exist in two or more crystalline forms with different arrangements or conformations of the constituents in the crystal lattice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> symbiosisonlinepublishing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polymorph Impact on the Bioavailability and Stability of Poorly Soluble Drugs
> 
> 
> Drugs with low water solubility are predisposed to poor and variable oral bioavailability and, therefore, to variability in clinical response, that might be overcome through an appropriate formulation of the drug. Polymorphs (anhydrous and solvate/hydrate ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Prime Scholars | Open Access Journals | Peer Reviewed Journals
> 
> 
> Prime Scholars is an academic international peer-reviewed Journal with Prime Scholars is an academic international Open Access Publishing House
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.imedpub.com



I brought this up as a theory years ago...  While it’s still possible it’s doubtful it effects much.  I don’t think it’s the cause of Meh.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

mars2025 said:


> Another question for chemists: why can't someone repeat the Leuckart reaction today?  Is it a lost secret or a matter of unavailable precursors?  Seems like there'd be demand for such an "old-school" product



It unfortunately isn’t used simply due to yields, purity and it can sometimes be finicky.  The thing is though the impurities May have been what gave the 90’s product that “dance all night, can’t stop moving” effect.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

vash445 said:


> Again NOTHING WAS ADDED TO OUR BATCH... I KNOW EXACTLY HOW IT WAS SYNTHED down to mol's down to if they used methylamine. or nitromethane... I know VERY FINITE details about it there is no way of another MDxx AS WELL.. I assure you NOTHING was added, this impurity has drastic effects in mg dosages... I do not want to disclose much BUT I KNOW MORE THEN ANYONE about that batch the chain on it is VERY close
> 
> Here is the deal safrole was converted to MDP2P using benz wacker... MDP2P was animated with methylamine with Al/Hg. I know much much more but you get the picture.....
> 
> Also WE HAVE MUCH MORE TESTS then EC or DD will ever have. I assure you if WE CANT FIND IT they wont... and it will just show the same thing... this is the issue we seem to be encountering
> 
> And we don't need a second lab because the COLUMN proved 97%... what don't you understand? That when he ran the column the product showed it was  clean 97% pure... almost no bands of contamination... we don't we a second lab there was other ways for us to show purity....
> 
> AGAIN this MEH mdma sample was TESTED every way thru sunday and we had a lot of people look at that report and come back it's MDMA.... TRUST me my meh IS MDMA and I know the way it was made... It was a bit funny on the NMR vs magic... when the column was ran after the product became clean....



Your starting to get a little hostile.  This isn’t research here, your allowing your emotions to cloud true science.  The other poster is right, your claims must be second, third and fourth checked.  If you can’t handle scrutiny than get out.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

vash445 said:


> Would it not be a good idea to run the column again and DISCARD the MDMA and identify the concentrated remainder ?
> 
> We lost the fractions  so we have no idea... trust me THAT WAS THE PLAN... its like you guys dont read this forum... we are hoping he misplaced them... He just doesnt remember where. He knows he has the elute bands... he just isn't sure where he placed them. Hopefully he finds them soon. He wasn't GC/MS certified yet so that's why he stashed them now he can't find them.



Quit losing shit then dude.. This is brutal to read.  People donate to you and you get pissy when you lose a very important sample.  I highly doubt the capabilities of you, you “mdma cook” or your abilities to discern via analytical techniques.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

All caught up 

OK Vash what the hell is going on man? At the very least your being a prick, you take donations and then lose product and then have the audacity to get pissy when people second guess your “work.”

I’ll say personally your grammar and spelling alone make any information you do lay out before us nearly impossible to decipher.

It’s a shame after being away for a bit to see people possibly getting taken advantage of, and also sullying the name of this entire project.

Either get your ass back in the lab Vash, or get out. I highly doubt your MDMA “cook” doesn’t have all the same reagents, glass, etc to redo the synthesis nearly identical.  While I agree there’s still factors which may go uncontrolled, it’s at least worth a try and I’m highly suspect of you and everything you’ve said thus far.

Also I suggest from here out if people want to donate to the cause, donate to DrugsData/Erowid or even BL.  DrugsData has taken an active effort to solve this and I trust their data.

-GC


----------



## psy997

Brnoxoxo said:


> Firsty, I don't know if you saw this study, it might help you.
> 
> Another things is about this topic - it has almost 200 pages. For some unknown reason you still use it and I really hope this is not your main comunication channel. You post charts, data, websites, studies...Why not use Google Drive or other service to share these information much efficiently so you don't have to refer chart from page 119 from 1 year ago.
> 
> Last note is about your goals. What do you want to prove with this topic? That MehDMA and MagicDMA exist and are different? Then I don't understand why is this topic still active. Because all your later work here is based on premise that MehDMA exists. Cool. But majority of academic community doesn't believe it. Why should you care? Because they are far better than you in finding the culprit of differences in MDMA batches. They have better equipment, more knowledge, more time etc. That's a fact. So my suggestion is to prove drug researchers that mehDMA & MagicDMA is relevant topic with potentially big impact on underground therapies using MDMA. I have spoken.



What do you want to prove? That you are more intelligent and clever than we are? 

It's frustrating when yet another poster comes in with only condescending input. It sounds like you've been following for a while considering you know about the chart that ThreePointCircle posted, that's great. And, you seem just as arrogant and set in your beliefs as you charge us with being - ironic, and both confusing and annoying for me. 

Have you watched Eric Weinsteins latest podcasts on the DISC, or Distributed Information Suppression Complex? You are embodying that principle/archetype perfectly here with your post. Especially the implicit suggestion that we should just leave this to academia.


----------



## Brnoxoxo

psy997 said:


> What do you want to prove? That you are more intelligent and clever than we are?
> 
> It's frustrating when yet another poster comes in with only condescending input. It sounds like you've been following for a while considering you know about the chart that ThreePointCircle posted, that's great. And, you seem just as arrogant and set in your beliefs as you charge us with being - ironic, and both confusing and annoying for me.
> 
> Have you watched Eric Weinsteins latest podcasts on the DISC, or Distributed Information Suppression Complex? You are embodying that principle/archetype perfectly here with your post. Especially the implicit suggestion that we should just leave this to academia.




I'm an asshole to you and everybody in this world including me. But when you get used to it, there's something useful behind my toxic rant.

Several times you guys had problem with searching for a specific chart, study, post etc. I think G_chem even started a new thread - part 2 (that was merged back to this original one) in order to gather all the knowledge on the 1st page. I think it would be smart to consider a new online platform to continue your research. You won't have to waste time by looking for a specific chart or information.

Also, I'm not saying that you should leave this to academic researchers. I'm only saying that they don't believe this issue exists because there is no solid evidence and also that their help may be crucial for finding the culprit of mehDMA or even magicDMA. But you still can have a important role in this. Academics are limited by a code of ethics. It's hard for them to get their research idea past the bureaucracy. You don't have these limitations and you can do this kind of research, conducted on human first-time users probably, more easily.

And please send me a link to this podcast about the DISC.


----------



## indigoaura

I have also discussed the need for a better organizational platform. The difficulty with something like Google drive is anonymity. Google is notorious for data collecting, and I don't really want Google involved in research of this nature. Do you know of a more anonymous file organization platform?

We have Drugs Data on board, and they were even actively pursuing one of the published theories regarding similar compounds that may be masked in regular GCMS testing. However, when Vash appeared to have evidence suggesting an active contaminant, Drugs Data paused their pursuit of the isomer theory.

At this point, I think that we need to fall back on published, peer reviewed research. We have published research that suggests an active contaminant is possible, and we have published research that suggests a structurally similar compound is possible. If all of you think it would be helpful, I would be happy to summarize published data and anecdotal commentary in MLA format, with cited sources etc. Then, perhaps that file can be shared via some kind of anonymous file upload.


----------



## Buzz Lightbeer

Stunned Guy said:


> exactly, same experience her from multiple people, very strange indeed..
> 
> On magic I could go on for hours and mostly was unable to sleep after 6+ hours, IF I could sleep at all to be honest..
> 
> 
> 
> Haha really, how funny is that
> 
> Good Mephedrone maybe even beats MDMA for me, maybe though, I enjoy both very much.
> 
> But only the MAGIC for both or course.
> 
> Do you agree there is a likewise difference in effects with pre and post ban Mephedrone compared with MDMA?
> 
> The Mephedrone these days is lacking the happy,rushy and eye wobbling feeling effect also, and many people agree with that..
> 
> I was not aware 4-MMC is that easy to make, but how are your experiences with those batches, pre or post ban effects?











						Where did all the real mephedrone go?
					

The original legal high mephedrone is reported to be different to the mephedrone that came after the ban, in both positive and negative effects.




					www.talkingdrugs.org
				



Good article on mephedrone, pre and post ban. Never had pre-ban, but I've had mixed results with mephedrone that's available right now, some aren't very potent and are more like 3-MMC. But this is not the place to discuss this 

A couple weeks ago I shared some MDMA with a friend and it sucked, it was his first time on MDMA and he too was very unimpressed. He's taken 6-APB a couple times before, but that's it for empathogens. I think I have good stuff now, let's hope....


----------



## vash445

G_Chem said:


> All caught up
> 
> OK Vash what the hell is going on man? At the very least your being a prick, you take donations and then lose product and then have the audacity to get pissy when people second guess your “work.”
> 
> I’ll say personally your grammar and spelling alone make any information you do lay out before us nearly impossible to decipher.
> 
> It’s a shame after being away for a bit to see people possibly getting taken advantage of, and also sullying the name of this entire project.
> 
> Either get your ass back in the lab Vash, or get out. I highly doubt your MDMA “cook” doesn’t have all the same reagents, glass, etc to redo the synthesis nearly identical.  While I agree there’s still factors which may go uncontrolled, it’s at least worth a try and I’m highly suspect of you and everything you’ve said thus far.
> 
> Also I suggest from here out if people want to donate to the cause, donate to DrugsData/Erowid or even BL.  DrugsData has taken an active effort to solve this and I trust their data.
> 
> -GC



A) He  is working on making more and has bought a new mantel and new glassware.... There is no way it can be the same...


B) Another guy is doing testing out of his own time and he has done that and HAS PROVIDED 3 NMR at a cost of donate LESS then energy control. If you want results calm the fuck DOWN OR IM KILLING MYSELF NOW or noone will find out anything or you can find someone else with an NMR and pay them. You are acting like I took donations have haven't provided a single NMR. I have provided 3 and they have revealed a lot.... more so then drugs data or energy control

DONATE to whoever you want. I HAVE provided ALOT FOR FREE. received $80 in 2 donations and provided 3 NMR.. GOOD LUCK GETTING 3 NMR for $80.

Also i'm trying to help this project but if you want me to die with any chance of having any info. FINE pay for NMR. GC/MS won't tell you anything. NMR is HArdly painting a picture. But it is painting a picture.


----------



## vash445

@G_Chem Said I should die so goodbye. 

You will no longer have access to nmr and I'm gonna kill myself goodbye.


----------



## G_Chem

Ok I just got multiple odd PM’s from Vash to the extent that if I don’t stop he’s going to kill himself.  If this little scrutiny is all it takes then I’m sorry but I believe we have a troll on our hands folks.

Please unfortunately disregard Vash any further unless you like sending some random fuck head money.

Vash if you indeed are that close to killing yourself please get help but I rather think your just apussy little kid that read some Rhodium archives and think you know a thing or too.  Quit wasting our time, the time of true independent researchers.

I will also make edits earlier than his posts in this thread to warn others.

-GC


----------



## mtu mwendawazimu

@vash445 - I think you should stop and think for a second. G_Chem might have just been trolling (just bare with me).

This is the internet and if someone bugs you, try to ignore them. They should stop.

Don't kill yourself.. if you need help find the Mental Health subforum for support.


----------



## vash445

madness00 said:


> @vash445 - I think you should stop and think for a second. G_Chem might have just been trolling (just bare with me).
> 
> This is the internet and if someone bugs you, try to ignore them. They should stop.
> 
> Don't kill yourself.. if you need help find the Mental Health subforum for support.



I'M this close to killing myself. Mental health support forums are useless and i'm on so many on reddit. Even my own insurance doesn't wanna deal with me because i'm so crazy . I have no friends and this project is really my own outlet but whatever seems like people don't want NMR or are happy for what I have provided. 

You guy's can deal with this on your own. 

Maybe i'll return maybe I wont but whatever. Goodluck and i'm not trolling


----------



## mtu mwendawazimu

That's fine. But honestly if you want a better outlet, with more supportive people, who understand, try mental health.

Anyway, it's up to you, but just take a second and think before making any rash decisions.

I've been suicidal before. A lot of us have. But tomorrow could be the best day of our life and we'd never know if we were gone.


----------



## vash445

madness00 said:


> That's fine. But honestly if you want a better outlet, with more supportive people, who understand, try mental health.
> 
> Anyway, it's up to you, but just take a second and think before making any rash decisions.
> 
> I've been suicidal before. A lot of us have. But tomorrow could be the best day of our life and we'd never know if we were gone.


I wake up with 80k in my pocket doing nothing... 

I met a cannabis model who dad make 500k. Nothing can Fix. Not even money :/


----------



## mtu mwendawazimu

A cannabis model?

Sounds wicked hot TBH.



Yeah i hear you.


----------



## G_Chem

Dude madness I’m sorry but come on...  It’s quite obvious he’s been playing people for awhile now.  Everything is too convenient and now if I don’t stop asking questions he’s gonna kill himself and “give us nothing..”. (What is there left to give btw, you supposedly lost it all..)

Any time he’s questioned he gets defensive, that isn’t research or science.  We aren’t supposed to just accept everything he says just cuz he screams in all caps and when things get rough he threatens to kill him self.

Either way I second you going to mental health and leaving this thread and it’s people alone.  This is ridiculous..

I will apologize for my private message to him, if on the very off chance all this is actually real, I’m sorry.  That said I will reiterate, don’t give that man anymore money!!! BL or Erowid deserve it a lot more.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

These skittle presses out of holland with 270 mg mdma are fucking god dam amazing. A bit expensive locally even in bulk but its quite up there with some of the best i done.


----------



## indigoaura

All of these developments are very unfortunate, as I really value the overall positive and supportive vibes that have been established in this thread. 

To Vash, or anyone else who genuinely feels suicidal, please seek help. Head over to the mental health forum, don't take MDMA (that is likely to make it worse), and take care of yourself. Today is temporary. 

However, this is no place for yelling (typing in all caps), and making threats. There have been many valuable contributions to this thread over the years. People have paid for testing at local facilities in Europe, overseas facilities etc. It is all appreciated. This is not the place to shut down questions, theories, or ideas, but to keep pushing and asking questions until we find some results and information that is consistent.


----------



## G_Chem

I’d also like to apologize a bit now that I’ve cooled down, in the end idk what’s going on with someone else and Vash if I’m wrong I’m truly sorry.

I’ll leave it at that...

-GC


----------



## SunriseChampion

Well that escalated quickly.

Suicidal ideation is a bitch I have experience with....luckily, I've given up on that particular idea.

Anyway.....I finally got my hands on some MDMA and it's not even the same batch that I've been waiting two months for (which I still hope to acquire shortly). The source I got it from provided some dodgy MMS of "test results" indicating the active ingredients as being 99% MDMA and 0.9% MDEA but I trust their dodgy message that was mostly redacted (lols, why?) about as much as I trust Google and will be sending the sample for testing at a local psychiatric hospital as well as running my own reagent tests and bioassay.

I haven't yet used the drug testing service we have available publicly here in Toronto through some public health clinics that sends samples for testing at the Centre For Addiction and Mental Health or St Mike's Hospital, so I'm not sure how they present their test results...especially seeing as the local public health clinic is the intermediary.

As with everything I do in my life, this is a procrastinated project so give me some weeks.


----------



## andyturbo

Ive cleaned this thread up a bit. I know you guys already know this but please try to post appropriately and within BLUA.

I am glad to read that things have smoothed out now that everyones cooled down 

♡ Andy


----------



## babooon87

Shit, this thread really took a wrong turn. Maybe people trying too many batches too often rendered some a bit unstable from serotonin depletion. It's time for some rest and 5-htp. Everything will be fine. Peace.


----------



## AutoTripper

vash445 said:


> I'M this close to killing myself. Mental health support forums are useless and i'm on so many on reddit. Even my own insurance doesn't wanna deal with me because i'm so crazy . I have no friends and this project is really my own outlet but whatever seems like people don't want NMR or are happy for what I have provided.
> 
> You guy's can deal with this on your own.
> 
> Maybe i'll return maybe I wont but whatever. Goodluck and i'm not trolling


Look, my friend. Im 100% certain, not a single soul or member here wishes you any harm or malice. Friction builds in heated debate.

I too have severe mental health issues. Long term severe clinical depression, largely chemical and biological in nature, the most extreme anxiety disorder- it genuinely threatens my life because I am dangerously underweight due to severe allergies and multiple chronic infections and so many other extremely unusual complications which make eating normally and sufficiently impossible for me.

I endure great levels of pain and suffering on a daily basis often to the point where reality is unbearable in terms of keeping that Focus and fighting through.

So I genuinely empathize with you  feeling distraught and hopeless and down with a lack of support I also have been trying to get some support and the mainstream allopathic mental health system and establishment is pathetically dire when it comes to actually providing any sort of useful and beneficial support and certainly within a reasonable timeframe I mean I've been on a waiting list for some basic cognitive behavioral therapy for a year now and when I get there they will be squeezing me in and out the door in a fixed number of sessions and I'm really not even decided yet whether to even mention my drug use which is a huge massive part of everything going on in my life and without discussing any aspects of my drug usage the therapy could be potentially useless but at the same time I do not want to risk my doctor knowing I am taking drugs recreationally to treat my anxiety and depression because when it comes to my sickness benefits battles I need to his full support and I do not need the system refusing me acknowledgement of my genuine debilitated condition which is not caused by my drug taking.

So I know what it is like to be between a rock and an extremely hard place and I literally feel crazy out of my head at times admittedly because I've been taking so much acid in combination with other substances while suffering to a very high degree with at times life-threatening physical ailments.

I live with my mum who is 70 years old and we have no other family who are nearby or give a toss and my mum has done everything for me her whole life this is why I could not possibly consider suicide and I fight my hardest to recover my health so that I can look after my mum and give her the best life possible as we both age together and she needs me more in time.

Anyway I just want to say @vash445 please just try to be a bit more tolerant, calmer, politer, more respectful, and just nicer when posting. If you could do this you would see a completely different reaction from the other members and nobody would be reproaching you even if they still doubted and questioned anything you might have to say.

I understand that you are suffering mentally and very easily frustrated and probably quite alienated in life in some ways but you have been coming across in a very caustic and confrontational tone and manner.

That is why we have this situation where you feel as though you have been unfairly interpreted and persecuted. It's simply a matter of respect and I'm sure that the other members feel that you have shown some disrespect by being unnecessarily aggressive and angry in some of your posts and expressions.

I genuinely only wish you the best my friend and all the happiness that can possibly be achieved with time and healing and positive thought don't give up. The future is never written well maybe it is but we won't get into that now lol!

Stay strong, but please realise- this forum is made up of very good and caring genuine and open minded people who are extremely accepting and non-judgmental and they expect to be treated and addressed in the same manner which you perhaps have not managed to do so as a result of your mental turmoil and losing your calm and perhaps not seeing things clearly we don't see things clearly generally as mortals especially when we are distressed and out of balance and there is no shame in that.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> All of these developments are very unfortunate, as I really value the overall positive and supportive vibes that have been established in this thread.


Hey girl. Don't worry. There are plenty of really good minded and spirited people here as members, who are mature and wise enough to rise above everything without feeling offended, and effortlessly and naturally maintain harmony here.

That is actually one of the things I really have loved about this forum since joining. We are high right? (I don't mean high on drugs though I'm not disputing that haha, certainly in my own case anyway I Confess haha!)

But you know what I mean. And I am glad this thought has come up because I was thinking just recently on this and how one of the most profound benefits quality original MDMA had on my personality when I used to take it and before I lost my health and sanity in 2005,  I was such a high being purely and steadily set in myself nobody could annoy me or irritate me or upset me and nobody wanted to it was quite the opposite I had an amazing gift for for diffusing any situation and literally helping people to change and feel completely different and let go of so much, without feeling the need for barriers.

I used to do this naturally as a highly spiritual and gifted individual in particular I was born with the most incredible sense of humour when I was healthy at least I was a pure joker 24/7 but in the most original and natural manner with pure love and well meaning behind it at all times.

But the MDMA particularly helped me me to really keep focus of this Higher stance and to live in my own reality so purely. I was literally untouchable or irrepressible in a very positive sense not aloof or cut off or superior or anything like that far from it extremely humble but just perfectly open, accepting of myself and others and everything around me.

It's difficult to find words and phrases to express what I'm trying to get at here but I genuinely was thinking how the MDMA affected my personality and vision of life so positively and profoundly in this sense  and this is a big and main reason why I have appeared so accepting and dismissive of the undoubted physical abuse my brain has suffered from massive overuse of ecstasy pills. 

Damage, yes. Alteration, yes as well.  An argument could be made for this. With a glass half full of course. 

So it's strange because at my point in life for many years now I genuinely don't think I regret the damage I inflicted upon my mental faculties and personality and potential, because I am on a very unique and deep and rewarding spiritual path in life and I'm very happy with the person that I am with lots of work to do on myself still of course that never stops.

Shining a light into those dark corners and cobwebs is not easy and can take us decades or our whole lives. But I believe this is a huge part of why we are here and incarnated in this particular life and existence with these exact lessons and angles we need most.

But that is another subject.

I'm really sorry folks I've gone way off track I've been taking lots and lots of acid and really benefiting from it at times of extreme difficulty and ill health and stress.
Loads of kava as well. 

I would really love to be taking some MDMA and sharing my experiences with you all I just don't think it will be safe for me to take my 220mg Dutch Bowser pills.


----------



## andyturbo

Props too AutoTripper!

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is probably the best thread (in my opinion) that ive been following on Bluelight for a long time.

Lets keep it rocking Bluelight family!


----------



## user666

So did she die from the wine or from the MDMA and what was the dose/concentration ?  Was it spiked only with MDMA or other substances as well ? e.g.: PMMA,  fentanyl, etc...
*Woman dies after one sip of wine spiked with MDMA*


----------



## user666

vash445 said:


> I'M this close to killing myself...


How  old are you?


----------



## phenethylo J

I'm going to assume that the mdma in that wine bottle was being smuggled and some how by mistake made it on the shelves along with the legit bottles.


----------



## sekio

> This is probably the best thread (in my opinion) that ive been following on Bluelight for a long time.



I'm the polar opposite, this whole thread is a waste of time.

I'm going to put my cards on the table here... I don't believe any of this impurity foofarah. What's next, the synthesis came out wrong because Mercury was retrograde in Scorpio, with the moon ascendant? You did a prayer fast and St. Barbara told you that your MDMA was cursed, in a divine vision? Maybe the cook had too many thetans.

I've worked with GCMS and NMR, I greatly prefer GCMS - it has given me more useful analytical data per test than any NMR can. Just the fact you actually seperate the compounds from each other means you don't have to do stupid shit like look at the miniscule NMR peaks in the 0.01% impurity that may as well be buried in noise or unresolvable from the baseline. I'm pretty sure that most if not all analytical labs for forensics, doping and other chemometric studies on human fluids are conducted with GC or LC-MS before NMR ever gets used.

As for the idea that changing your heating mantle or flask will drastically alter the result of your synthesis - someone should have told the molecules that when I worked, because as far as I could see, any properly cleaned flask worked as well as any other. You do realize that if the flask/mantle were so important, recipes would specify which particular models were used, and scale-up or repeatability of reactions would be impossible. Organic Syntheses, the journal, would be nonexistent - *the entire purpose of their publications is they are verified independently by a seperate team, at a seperate laboratory, with different sources for starting matrerials, with different equipment, sometimes on a different scale* - and yet somehow the reactions work the same, every time.

It's like saying someone baking a Betty Crocker chocolate cake will suddenly find raisins in the batter if they use the wrong brand of oven. It makes no fucking sense.

Someone PM me when this thread actually goes somewhere aside from drama and backseat chemists who have never touched a round bottom in their lives. (pun intended)


----------



## SunriseChampion

That was a good one, @sekio  ....almost as good as some nice and proppa MDMA.....and how the hell did you know I pray to St Barbara? 

Thanks for keeping it real, mate.


----------



## psy997

sekio said:


> I'm the polar opposite, this whole thread is a waste of time.
> 
> I'm going to put my cards on the table here... I don't believe any of this impurity foofarah. What's next, the synthesis came out wrong because Mercury was retrograde in Scorpio, with the moon ascendant? You did a prayer fast and St. Barbara told you that your MDMA was cursed, in a divine vision? Maybe the cook had too many thetans.



I wish I could be as confidently ignorant of this issue as you are, sekio.

I don't expect you to change your mind until you experience it. At which point, I will feel sorry that you, too, have been affected.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Im still doubtful about this meh stuff considering every single person in this country who has money can all buy ounces of amazing magic mdma for cheap and we are a fucking island at the end of the world. 

Never came across it in my life always been good of course some batches differ in strength and sometimes have mda together but all same magic in the end. All this stuff is from holland and i never had issues with their mass production. What i do avoid is fucking black rocks of mdma i see people buying the most fucking tainted looking mdma and then complain about meh well thats whats going to happen if what you are eating is 90% solvent and 10% mdma .


----------



## Kaden_Nite

When the same people are experiencing the same dismal effect from a drug; from numerous batches, for years, it is obvious what the issue is.

It's not that there is a problem with the MDMA or the labs testing it, or a conspiracy, or a microgram impurity or the composition of the capsules is causing a reaction, or any of these highly improbable external factors.

It's not the MDMA. It is the response that you are getting to MDMA. There could be a million reasons for that, every one of them more likely than a common chemical flaw which has gone unnoticed by every forensic lab, testing facility and researcher outside of the posters in this thread who have convinced themselves that there is a chemical issue with the MDMA (certainly not a neurological, physiological, psychological, dietary, metabolic or chemical issue with them), despite having no evidence to back that up.

If you are going to continue claiming there is a product being sold as MDMA, which tests as MDMA, but isn't MDMA, you need to provide chemical evidence. If this is so common, there is no reason that hasn't been provided already.


----------



## draculic acid69

This issue was recently discussed on another site and the person who started that thread claimed to have been making it and knew other people making it and was also getting this meh stuff from other producers.anyway after a few pages this person performed a purification process called column chromatography on the meh stuff and lo and behold the now purified stuff was no longer meh but was now magic.not sure what kind of ratio of  meh to magic there was so don't ask.mass production of mdma has always(mostly) been via the leuckart method with precursors already made by chemical companies who will analyze what they've synthesized before sending it off to be made into mdma so unless some mass production crews  are trying new methods and not purifying there starting or  end  product theres  only one thing i can think of is that it could  be an isomer of mdma such as the nitrogen being at the 1 or 3 position instead of the 2 position.doesnt really seem to be other possibilities.
I'm wondering if it's the commercial mdp2p rearranging into the more stable mdp1p as it apparently does if not stored in the cold or kept too long.using this in a leuckart/mercury aluminium amalgam rxn would yeild
the mdpropyl1methylamine instead of mdpropyl2methylamine compound.im not sure if this can fool a GC/ms analysis or it's operator.it would explain why its still active albeit not very good (it's got an entry in pihkal doesn't it) and why it looks the same as mdma on gc/ms as it's all the same groups but someone who understands GC/ms stuff will have to answer that one.point being it's either a problem with old ketone or lack of purification at the end but no one ever until now has had to resort to column chromatography for purifying there mdma just to make it active.


----------



## draculic acid69

Another possibility is that the bromosafrole method was used and the hbr acid they used contained  a lot of free bromine and that caused a significant amount of the md3bromo compound to be made along with  the md2bromo compound which when aminated would lead to the nitrogen attaching in the 3position instead of the 2 position.but the chance of this low yeilding method with this specific mistake being used  on a big enough scale for all these different ppl to be getting the meh stuff with this being the cause are probably very low but its possible.
Is this meh stuff just a u.s. problem or is it worldwide? Is this a problem with Australian mdma as well? How long has it been going on? R ppl in Europe also getting this?


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> It unfortunately isn’t used simply due to yields, purity and it can sometimes be finicky.  The thing is though the impurities May have been what gave the 90’s product that “dance all night, can’t stop moving” effect.
> 
> -GC



The leuckart was used bcoz on such a large scale it's simple to do,the ingredients are cheap and available and the yeild is as good as any other method.its probably still being used as there's no way nmf is harder to get than it used to be and because of that I doubt it will stop being used.


----------



## draculic acid69

A


G_Chem said:


> It unfortunately isn’t used simply due to yields, purity and it can sometimes be finicky.  The thing is though the impurities May have been what gave the 90’s product that “dance all night, can’t stop moving” effect.
> 
> -GC


Also impurities certainly wouldn't contribute positive effects.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

draculic acid69 said:


> R ppl in Europe also getting this?



I've tried a different vendor each time over the last 10 years in the uk.  All varying levels of meh.  I know there's going to be people saying tolerance, etc, but that doesn't explain it being bad when I first came back to it since the 90s.  And I was never a heavy user.  Could be a DM thing.  Tbf, maybe it is me but I'd like to work on the hypothesis that it isn't and keep looking for a solution.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

In my experience most DN MDMA in northern Europe has been varying degrees of Meh. My hunch is that the answer may be related to an isomer, an isomer that somehow block the receptors 2C-B binds to (as I've tried Nexus flipping with MehDMA with severely diminished effects of the 2C-B).


----------



## sekio

GCMS can indeed differentiate most positional isomers & usually they have different MS spectrums. So nobody is going to mistake a positional isomer of MDMA for the real stuff when tested that way.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

I don't have enough knowledge on the subject, so excuse me if I'm not clear or if this have been covered earlier. I wonder if test centers or someone else have done, what is described in the second sentence in following quote, on MehDMA: (regarding identification of regioisomers of MDMA) "The position of substitution for the methylenedioxy ring is not easily determined by mass spectral techniques, and the ultimate identification of any one of these amines with the elimination of the other nine must depend heavily upon chromatographic methods. The chromatographic separation of these 10 uniquely regioisomeric amines are studied using reversed-phase liquid chromatographic methods with gradient elution and gas chromatographic techniques with temperature program optimization. (from: J Chromatogr Sci. 2000 Aug;38(8):329-37. "Chromatographic and mass spectral methods of identification for the side-chain and ring regioisomers of methylenedioxymethamphetamine")


----------



## psy997

Kaden_Nite said:


> When the same people are experiencing the same dismal effect from a drug; from numerous batches, for years, it is obvious what the issue is.
> 
> It's not that there is a problem with the MDMA or the labs testing it, or a conspiracy, or a microgram impurity or the composition of the capsules is causing a reaction, or any of these highly improbable external factors.
> 
> It's not the MDMA. It is the response that you are getting to MDMA. There could be a million reasons for that, every one of them more likely than a common chemical flaw which has gone unnoticed by every forensic lab, testing facility and researcher outside of the posters in this thread who have convinced themselves that there is a chemical issue with the MDMA (certainly not a neurological, physiological, psychological, dietary, metabolic or chemical issue with them), despite having no evidence to back that up.
> 
> If you are going to continue claiming there is a product being sold as MDMA, which tests as MDMA, but isn't MDMA, you need to provide chemical evidence. If this is so common, there is no reason that hasn't been provided already.



It's not the same people experiencing the same things over and over. For instance, I just attended a party five weeks ago at which 7+ people, including myself, all used the same batch of MDMA and lack of magic effects were observed in every individual. I personally watched one individual sit in front of a fire, surrounded by people enjoying themselves, chain smoke cigarettes, and talk to no-one all night long. It's obvious that something is wrong with the MDMA when no-one is pro-social, no-one is gurning, no-one is experiencing enhanced tactile sensations and subsequent touching/cuddling, etc. 

We've covered this in many ways, whether that be virgin users taking product, unaware of its quality, and failing to have a classic MDMA experience, observing groups of individuals all lacking tell-tale signs of intoxication, etc. 

"If you are going to continue claiming... you need to provide chemical evidence"

With all due respect, what in the fuck do you think we're doing here? 

Once again, you embody the DISC or Distributed Information Suppression Complex so beautifully articulated by Eric Weinstein recently. Which, I actually owe another poster here a link to, so I'll be on that soon.


----------



## psy997

Brnoxoxo said:


> I'm an asshole to you and everybody in this world including me. But when you get used to it, there's something useful behind my toxic rant.
> 
> Several times you guys had problem with searching for a specific chart, study, post etc. I think G_chem even started a new thread - part 2 (that was merged back to this original one) in order to gather all the knowledge on the 1st page. I think it would be smart to consider a new online platform to continue your research. You won't have to waste time by looking for a specific chart or information.
> 
> Also, I'm not saying that you should leave this to academic researchers. I'm only saying that they don't believe this issue exists because there is no solid evidence and also that their help may be crucial for finding the culprit of mehDMA or even magicDMA. But you still can have a important role in this. Academics are limited by a code of ethics. It's hard for them to get their research idea past the bureaucracy. You don't have these limitations and you can do this kind of research, conducted on human first-time users probably, more easily.
> 
> And please send me a link to this podcast about the DISC.



Hey sorry I never got around the replying.

I'm all good with asshole-ishness so long as it's owned :D

My issue was that your suggestion seemed offered in a condescending or superior tone instead of one of genuine desire for the betterment of this thread. I do agree with you.

DISC podcasts here:









First one explains it.


----------



## draculic acid69

sekio said:


> GCMS can indeed differentiate most positional isomers & usually they have different MS spectrums. So nobody is going to mistake a positional isomer of MDMA for the real stuff when tested that way.


So there's no chance of the nitrogen being at the 1position instead of the 2 position at all? That rules out my theory.


----------



## draculic acid69

PsychedelicSummer said:


> I don't have enough knowledge on the subject, so excuse me if I'm not clear or if this have been covered earlier. I wonder if test centers or someone else have done, what is described in the second sentence in following quote, on MehDMA: (regarding identification of regioisomers of MDMA) "The position of substitution for the methylenedioxy ring is not easily determined by mass spectral techniques, and the ultimate identification of any one of these amines with the elimination of the other nine must depend heavily upon chromatographic methods. The chromatographic separation of these 10 uniquely regioisomeric amines are studied using reversed-phase liquid chromatographic methods with gradient elution and gas chromatographic techniques with temperature program optimization. (from: J Chromatogr Sci. 2000 Aug;38(8):329-37. "Chromatographic and mass spectral methods of identification for the side-chain and ring regioisomers of methylenedioxymethamphetamine")


So is 2,3methylenedioxy not 3,4md etc a possibility?


----------



## draculic acid69

Has anyone performed a marquis/mandelin reagent test
On the meh stuff? If so what were the colours?


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> So there's no chance of the nitrogen being at the 1position instead of the 2 position at all? That rules out my theory.


I think there were two papers quoted in this thread that identified some MDMA-like compounds that looked the same on GCMS.
AFAIR 2,3-methylenedioxy compounds were not one of them

Also, I think the Marquis colorimetric test was always straight-to-black (without the intermediate dark blue) for the meh stuff
There was also a person in this thread that could actually taste the difference.


----------



## Goodwalt

draculic acid69 said:


> Has anyone performed a marquis/mandelin reagent test
> On the meh stuff? If so what were the colours?


I believe marquis goes straight to black with meh and when it's magic it gets purple/dark blue first


----------



## draculic acid69

Goodwalt said:


> I believe marquis goes straight to black with meh and when it's magic it gets purple/dark blue first


I know mbdp test black rather than the blue black of mdma but no one would call that stuff meh.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

psy997 said:


> With all due respect, what in the fuck do you think we're doing here?


You are making claims and then becoming hostile when someone asks you to provide evidence.

Don't try to put labels on me just because you can't back up your own claims.



draculic acid69 said:


> This issue was recently discussed on another site and the person who started that thread claimed to have been making it and knew other people making it and was also getting this meh stuff from other producers.anyway after a few pages this person performed a purification process called column chromatography on the meh stuff and lo and behold the now purified stuff was no longer meh but was now magic.


If it's the same guy who was posting all of that stuff here, it can be filed under bullshit and disregarded.

Edit: In response to some of your other questions;
-Testing facilities are definitely able to differentiate structural isomers of MDMA. GC/MS seems the most relied on technique. 2,3 was ruled out long ago.
-Product of virtually every known synthesis route seems to have appeared in the US over the past few years.
-This 'drugs aint what they used to be' phenomena has been going on since.. forever.
-In Australia, only difference I've noticed to when I was taking MDMA over ten years ago is that crystal and caps seem to be generally favoured over presses.

People seem happy with it, though based on the brown, tan, yellow colours, it doesn't seem as well washed as it could be.

There was a black batch a couple of years ago. Acetone washed one third away.


----------



## indigoaura

Love the way the negative posters are going to swoop in now because there was a brief conflict in this thread...

Anyone who does not believe in the mission of the thread and thinks it is a waste of time can go and post in any of the many other threads available on Bluelight. Nobody is making you post here, or forcing you to read through the "foofarah." Bottom line is, if we are all wrong and we all have tolerance issues (including the virgin users, that would be something), then we are not hurting anyone by spinning our wheels.

Prior to Vash's involvement in the thread, the conversation had advanced based on _published, peer reviewed research articles._ Drugs Data was involved and was investigating one of the issues presented in published research. Vash entered the thread and offered NMR testing, and the thread pursued the line of reasoning that was being presented through the NMR data. Whether that information was legitimate or a red herring, I honestly do not know. The info that Vash presented did line up with some of the published research, but it also cut off a second line of inquiry that I think was equally valid. However, when pushed for verification of the data, Vash was unable/unwilling to provide it, and the individual he was working with lost multiple key pieces of information. So, I don't feel like we can really rely on that information.

The thread has been largely collaborative and co-operative with surprisingly little drama until recently. As I already said, it is unfortunate that the thread degenerated like that, but now it is time to re-focus.

@draculic acid69 Some of our primary contributors and more knowledgeable posters have not been able to post for some time, and may be held up for awhile. Vash also claimed to have cleaned "Meh" product and turned it to Magic with a column based on NMR results. However, the "magic" product was never consumed, so it was only magic in imaging and theory.

A lot of people have used reagent tests on MehDMA. I have never had magic and meh side by side to test. In my observations of reagent test results, meh goes straight to black on marquis. I have a long post somewhere in here that details Marquis, Simon's, and Mandelin for a variety of "meh" samples. There were a few people who felt that "magic" product produced a quick green on Mandelin at the start of the reaction.

@PsychedelicSummer Interesting you bring up 2CB. In my experience, MehDMA plus 2CB was unpleasant if the MehDMA was done first. Not a good combo. However, the one time I did the 2CB first, the MDMA felt less Meh. I feel like this could indicate some kind of receptor issue.


----------



## indigoaura

To any new posters to the thread, here is a summary I wrote up awhile back:

We have noticed significant variation between MDMA batches that have all tested as MDMA through GCMS lab analysis. These variations have been confirmed by multiple people and under a wide variety of circumstances. Variation includes lack of traditionally observable physical phenomena such as mydriasis and profuse sweating, as well as a lack of traditional sensory/tactile enhancement and euphoria. Before you assume the answer is user tolerance, please note that the variation has also been noted in "virgin" users of MDMA. To simplify our discussion of this phenomena we have been calling traditional product with typical results "magic" and non-traditional product with muted results "meh."

Our own research has revealed a few possibilities for what may be occurring.

Here are some of the research articles that we read while considering this issue:

This research article seems to indicate that there are structurally similar compounds that could masquerade as MDMA to GCMS testing: http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/1304/AWAD_TAMER...

This article shows that some synthesis byproducts could have an impact on transporters and also on the effect of MDMA: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426

These articles discuss variations in synthesis methods, and how those variations produce different byproducts:

1. Sci-Hub | A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine. Forensic Science International, 224(1-3), 8–26 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040

2. Sci-Hub | Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities. Forensic Science International, 152(2-3), 175–184 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003

3. Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA prepared by different synthesis methods Comparison of impurity profiles

Currently, it seems to us that variations in MDMA synthesis methods result in variations of product due to either a) presence of active impurities or b) substitution of structurally similar compounds.


----------



## indigoaura

There is another published paper titled: "Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Methods of Identification for the Side-Chain and Ring Regioisomers of Methylenedioxymethamphetamine" written by Laura Aalberg and Jack DeRuiter. I have this as a PDF, but I don't have a link for it. I need to upload it somewhere. It was posted some time back in the thread, but the link was doing odd things depending on what country you were accessing the link from. The abstract states:



> The popular drug of abuse 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine
> (MDMA) is one of a total of 10 regioisomeric 2,3- and 3,4-
> methylenedioxyphenethylamines of MW 193 that yields
> regioisomeric fragment ions with equivalent mass (m/z 58 and
> 135/136) in the electron-impact (EI) mass spectrum. Thus, these
> 10 methylenedioxyphenethylamines are uniquely isomeric; they
> have the same molecular weight and equivalent major fragments
> in their mass spectra. The specific identification of one of these
> compounds (i.e., Ecstasy or 3,4-MDMA) in a forensic drug
> sample depends upon the analyst's ability to eliminate the other
> regioisomers as possible interfering or coeluting substances.
> This study reports the synthesis, chemical properties, spectral
> characterization, and chromatographic analysis of these
> 10 unique regioisomers. The ten 2,3- and 3,4-regioisomers of
> MDMA are synthesized from commercially available precursor
> chemicals. In the EImass spectra, the side-chain regioisomers show
> some variation in the relative intensity of the major ions, with the
> exception of only one or two minor ions that might be considered
> side-chain specific fragments. The position of substitution for the
> methylenedioxy ring is not easily determined by mass spectral
> techniques, and the ultimate identification of anyone of these
> amines with the elimination of the other nine must depend heavily
> upon chromatographic methods. The chromatographic separation of
> these 10 uniquely regioisomeric amines are studied using reversedphase
> liquid chromatographic methods with gradient elution and
> gas chromatographic techniques with temperature program
> optimization.



Worth noting that this paper emphasizes the importance of NMR, but acknowledges that NMR is typically not available:



> Although nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR)can be a very useful method
> for regioisomer differentiation, it is not a technique that has
> direct application for all areas of forensic drug chemistry, and it is
> not readily available in most forensic laboratories. Thus, the analysis
> of street drug samples and analytical toxicology must depend
> heavily upon chromatographic methods as well as mass spectrometry
> (MS).


----------



## indigoaura

Finally, one more paper with Laura Aalberg as co-author. I find this one interesting because it is looking at seized samples, and finds similar isobaric substances that are not MDMA (but appear to be):

The Identification of 3,4-MDMA from Its Mass Equivalent Isomers and Isobaric Substances Using Fast LC–ESI-MS–MS


----------



## draculic acid69

Kaden_Nite said:


> You are making claims and then becoming hostile when someone asks you to provide evidence.
> 
> Don't try to put labels on me just because you can't back up your own claims.
> 
> 
> If it's the same guy who was posting all of that stuff here, it can be filed under bullshit and disregarded.
> 
> Edit: In response to some of your other questions;
> -Testing facilities are definitely able to differentiate structural isomers of MDMA. GC/MS seems the most relied on technique. 2,3 was ruled out long ago.
> -Product of virtually every known synthesis route seems to have appeared in the US over the past few years.
> -This 'drugs aint what they used to be' phenomena has been going on since.. forever.
> -In Australia, only difference I've noticed to when I was taking MDMA over ten years ago is that crystal and caps seem to be generally favoured over presses.
> 
> People seem happy with it, though based on the brown, tan, yellow colours, it doesn't seem as well washed as it could be.
> 
> There was a black batch a couple of years ago. Acetone washed one third away.


 In Australia most mdma I've come across not already pressed in pills was a brown crystal.only once have I seen white mdma.


----------



## psy997

Kaden_Nite said:


> You are making claims and then becoming hostile when someone asks you to provide evidence.
> 
> Don't try to put labels on me just because you can't back up your own claims.



No. I am becoming hostile when being asked to provide evidence because this thread _is_ the emergent process of discovering evidence. To attempt to discredit the process of finding evidence because there is not yet solid evidence is, at best, ignorant, and at worst, deceitful.


----------



## Simosom

Exactly, i was about to say same. 

"Love the way the negative posters are going to swoop in now because there was a brief conflict in this thread..."

I had a meh batches where marquis goes purple to black.


----------



## sekio

indigoaura said:
			
		

> I find this one interesting because it is looking at seized samples, and finds similar isobaric substances that are not MDMA (but appear to be):



Where do you get the idea that the paper said that there were other isomers of MDMA detected? Did you even read it?


> The combination of the MS–MS spectrum and the retention time allowed the *unambiguous identification of 3,4-MDMA in all samples where present* (46/49). One sample contained only methamphetamine, one methamphetamine and caffeine, and one only caffeine. [...] Other active substances found by GC–MS from the tablets were MDA and MDEA, and they did not affect the specificity ofthe method.


----------



## wereallmadhere

Hey guys, im sure nobody remembers my preious posts to this thread... as in being a pure sceptic of this whole idea, until my source changed, and my rolls changed... for the worst as soon as I switched to dark net sourced material. In any case, I have acquired a fairly good chunk of the old "magic" , and I fully intent to closely look at ,and see how reagent reactions compare. Once confirmed to be as good as the old suppy, and is indeed magic. I would gladly sacrafice a cap for lab testing, or if anyone here wanted to do any sort of testing on it... only id need some donations to cover cost of cap and testing. I am real, real curious how this stuff would lab test, but after the cash  i dropped on this stuff and the rarity of it, I would for sure need some monetary assistance. I plan to roll on the new stuf first (still have two old magic caps) just to make sure the new batch (from same source) still as the amazing mdma magic I fell in love with 2+ years ago. I still have complete magic as of my last roll, so if its good , im expecting a mind blowing exp. Haven't rolled on the magic since the end of Aug. '19. And props to everyone in this thread, with possibly except of vash. :D Even tho I have my doubts this issue will be solved, it would be nice to know what the issue is even  if the ww clandestine labs would likely keep pumping out the same cheap. knockoff like experience of MDMA.

PS My biggest thought on meh/vs magic. The magic has a rocket ship come up. Like your strapped to the outside of a rocket, and when you reach destination... You are on another planet. Physiological effects are much more intense... Clenching is like chomping down and you don't even realize till 5 mins later :D, heart rate is obviously up compared to meh... sweating profushihiely even in cool environments music sounds like its being pumped directly to your brain from another planet. :D But if you have had the genuine article, its going to just be a complete disappointment. Forgot... The come up on meh is so slow and slight, you don't even really realize you have come up until you start noticing things... like music sounds a bit better, my hair/body feels amazing, hands m feet cold from the vasoconstriction, talking peoples ears off... lol So ill be rolling on the new supply in maybe two weeks  and will be back with a full, hopefully happy report. Sure hope this stuff is the real artical, as I could have purchase in bulk online and gotten a fuckin oz :D  This will also give me time to try some other sources and save these good ones for the really special occasionans like my bday, and one festival/rave a year. Maybe I will strike gold and find a quantity of crystal magic on the dn, or my other go to a particular rave social media app. lol. 


One more thing... reading the differences between R/S mdma, its almost like this shit is R isomer dominated, which is where the body high, and some other good effects come from. While the S type is more potent, as far more stimulating and dopaminergic. Now his probably isnt the problem, but on other rolls, I felt like where is the fucking dopamine and stimulaion. :/ The stimulation from the magic, is the cleanest, purest more eurphoric stimulant I have ever done. And its totally missing from the "Meh"batches. Its almost like since the dutch dont like meth, they took the meth side of mdma out of it. :D Just a joke kinda. Haha. Anyway thanks for reading this far if you did , and to all yall investigating this issue. I have done plenty of drugs, and no drug has had such varying effects between different batches... :/ I also wonder what would happen if you dropped a little adderal on to some meh stuff? Surely the dopamine/stim side would make a better entrance, hehe. 
One more interesting note...  Last time I did the magic stuff at the end f aug, that roll was ever bit as magic, if not fucking more than very first roll. And this is coming from someone with 15+ rolls since end of Jan '18, and did not roll period until I was 41, so no burned out nostalgic raver here...

Also I could kinda see certain type of people actually liking the meh more... Its very chill nd relaxing, opening and takes down the fear response, personality guards etc.. just like classic mdma. But if you dont want to be stimmed up as if your on a shorter acting meth, I could see liking the more chill stuff, especially for a home roll with ur chick just cudling, talking, etc... anyway. Sorry for the rant, not on meth but I did take a 30mg adderal a couple hours ago. :D


----------



## indigoaura

sekio said:


> Where do you get the idea that the paper said that there were other isomers of MDMA detected? Did you even read it?



I may have linked the wrong paper. Now the link is not working properly. Give me a bit and I will find the correct link. I have a lot of articles saved, and there has been a great deal of info shared in the thread. It can be a bit convoluted to dig through.


----------



## indigoaura

@wereallmadhere 

If you have both a meh and a magic sample, I should be able to work something out between you and Drugs Data where you can send your samples to them and you would not have to send $. They would also want you to fill out a questionnaire. Ideally, more than one person would have tried both the meh and the magic sample, and everyone who tried each sample would be willing to fill out the questionnaire. 

I personally feel that everyone in this thread should avoid sending any kind of payment to any individual member who is promising to test products etc. Too easy for people to be taken advantage of. I think we can get this set up with Drugs Data where samples would go to them and they would look at them with a higher amount of scrutiny as part of this project. 

Also, in my experience, the mah product is not good for hanging at home and just chilling with your partner. It is unpleasant. You just want to be alone and space out. It has none of the pro-social, connectedness of typical MDMA in my personal experience.


----------



## indigoaura

@sekio My apologies for posting the wrong link. The article that addresses regioisomers being found in clandestine pills is here: http://www.icadtsinternational.com/files/documents/2007_271.pdf



> CONCLUSIONS: The analytical results indicate that the samples, in which an overlapped peak assigned to MDMA was observed, contain 2 or more of the 10 regioisomers that exist in MDMA. The presence of one, or several, of these regioisomers can easily be missed in routine analyses and can lead to an important error of quantification.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

I hope people are aware mdma effects rely on set and setting aswell just like things like psychedelics. 

If you do mdma too much for some people it will become a very negative experience just like how some people have bad reactions to psychedelics. 

Why is that over ounces and ounces of mdma i have yet to see anybody in this country complain about meh? This is all made in holland comes in various moon rock champagne colours or white sometimes a little bit brown but i always avoid black or brown mdma as i know pure crystal should be white or clear. Why is that every press here that is pressed in holland or pressed here by mass production mdma from holland is magic for everybody most people split these high dose pills and half a crazy roll still. Though i like taking the full 240-280 mg and just rolling out of mind hard.

Just because your product might have some tiny amount of mdma to fool some lame regnant tests doesn't mean that full 100 mg you ate had any more than 10-40 mg of mdma in it.


----------



## psy997

TripSitterNZ said:


> If you do mdma too much for some people it will become a very negative experience just like how some people have bad reactions to psychedelics.



This is not the case given how many users that have experienced MehDMA have experienced MagicDMA experiences just before and/or after Meh experiences. Especially Hilopsilo who rolled with an entire group on Meh one night, then used another batch the next night and had a totally different, classically Magic experience. Set and setting is important, but it doesn't cover the effects seen with Meh.



TripSitterNZ said:


> Why is that over ounces and ounces of mdma i have yet to see anybody in this country complain about meh?



I am starting to get curious about why Australian/NZ users here seem more likely to have not ever experienced Meh. It is a very good question that I, too, hold.



TripSitterNZ said:


> Just because your product might have some tiny amount of mdma to fool some lame regnant tests doesn't mean that full 100 mg you ate had any more than 10-40 mg of mdma in it.



Low dosed / impure product also doesn't fit the bill considering bumping up dosage does nothing except (usually) make the experience even more meh. Plus, 40mg of MDMA plugged is more than enough for pure ecstacy - I've done it multiple times - and that amount of Meh plugged is nothing like it.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ "Why is that over ounces and ounces of mdma i have yet to see anybody in this country complain about meh?" I wish I knew the answer to that, but since you are on an island, I can only hypothesize that what is being made there or being imported is of a decent quality. That is how it used to be in my area too. Easily 90% of what was around was good, and when it wasn't good it was due to it being DXM or something completely bunk. Nobody in this area complained about "meh" product many years ago.  It was either MDMA and good, or it wasn't.

"Just because your product might have some tiny amount of mdma to fool some lame regnant tests doesn't mean that full 100 mg you ate had any more than 10-40 mg of mdma in it." The products that I am personally defining as "meh" were sent in for lab tests and not just reagent tested. 

And, sorry man, set and setting just does not explain what I have observed, not just for me but for new users as well. Used to, a new user was blown away. It did not matter where they were. 

It sounds like your area is like my area used to be. There was a huge bust here around 2002 or so when a huge amount of the product being imported here was cut off in a large bust. I never found magic product again after all of that stuff dried up. I don't doubt that it is here somewhere, but I don't know how to get it. 









						Ecstasy ring busted in Houston
					

Federal authorities have dismantled a Houston Ecstasy-trafficking ring that used two...




					www.chron.com
				











						Ecstasy's journey to Houston began an ocean away
					

Shaped like clovers, festooned with Playboy bunnies and popular cars, the colorful little...




					www.chron.com
				




My guy, at the time, always claimed his stuff was sourced through Asian channels, but not too long after this bust, he quit, and I never saw the same caliber of product again.


----------



## androoo

psy997 said:


> I am starting to get curious about why Australian/NZ users here seem more likely to have not ever experienced Meh. It is a very good question that I, too, hold.


Dude, I'm in NZ and ALL we have is MehDMA!!! Everyone who remembers what it used to be like doesn't use it anymore, there is a whole generation of kids who have no idea what real mdma actually does...


----------



## androoo

TripSitterNZ said:


> I hope people are aware mdma effects rely on set and setting aswell just like things like psychedelics.
> 
> If you do mdma too much for some people it will become a very negative experience just like how some people have bad reactions to psychedelics.
> 
> Why is that over ounces and ounces of mdma i have yet to see anybody in this country complain about meh? This is all made in holland comes in various moon rock champagne colours or white sometimes a little bit brown but i always avoid black or brown mdma as i know pure crystal should be white or clear. Why is that every press here that is pressed in holland or pressed here by mass production mdma from holland is magic for everybody most people split these high dose pills and half a crazy roll still. Though i like taking the full 240-280 mg and just rolling out of mind hard.
> 
> Just because your product might have some tiny amount of mdma to fool some lame regnant tests doesn't mean that full 100 mg you ate had any more than 10-40 mg of mdma in it.


Dude, all of the mdma currently in NZ is terrible...no happiness at all...I've had quite a bit from various sources (with all the different dumb names people use to sell it)


----------



## TripSitterNZ

androoo said:


> Dude, I'm in NZ and ALL we have is MehDMA!!! Everyone who remembers what it used to be like doesn't use it anymore, there is a whole generation of kids who have no idea what real mdma actually does...


i been using mdma since 2003. You must get yours from crackheads cause theres hundreds of kgs of good stuff in this country. I get magic stuff from holland and presses are fucking insane in nz so i dont know what u do probably speed from headhunters or black power lmao. I see your from welly which explains everything welligton is as shit hole of crackheads selling RCs lmao. Also wellington is filled with PMA by the tens of kgs.


----------



## androoo

nope, we get all the same stuff as you.. i've never seen so much mdma in Wellington before and it's all crystal(varying colours) and it's all imported...no PMA either, we have testing facilities locally, if PMA came up we would all know about it.
 All my previous MDMA experience is in the UK (1999 onwards). ALL of the mdma here is crap, yes it has similar effects, tests as mdma but it doesn't feel the same. The whole set/setting things is a bit misleading, when you have proper mdma, you know you have proper mdma... no matter what the situation your in! that little smile/smirk on your face as you come up; i miss that so much


----------



## TripSitterNZ

androoo said:


> nope, we get all the same stuff as you.. i've never seen so much mdma in Wellington before and it's all crystal(varying colours) and it's all imported...no PMA either, we have testing facilities locally, if PMA came up we would all know about it.
> All my previous MDMA experience is in the UK (1999 onwards). ALL of the mdma here is crap, yes it has similar effects, tests as mdma but it doesn't feel the same. The whole set/setting things is a bit misleading, when you have proper mdma, you know you have proper mdma... no matter what the situation your in! that little smile/smirk on your face as you come up; i miss that so much


No one is testing the mdma by GCMS in NZ and publishing results. I know how wellington works i also grew up on mdma in holland when i was in my early 20's. I have never come across crap mdma because i know what to avoid and what to get. I could go out and easily get ounces of amazing product. 

PMA is all over wellington its been seized by police in 10's of kgs amounts i know what goes on with those cooked cunts down there. I know those cooked crackheads try smoke rocks of "mdma" which is all various caothines. 

The product i come across is tested professionally by energy control before its bought in. I can direct you to magic presses that are present in NZ atm and only these ones are legit any other in NZ are sus. Skittles, Off white rolexs, Pink grenades are all def very good.

I get off white or moon rock mdma 100 mg is enough to have you rolling in pure love pupils dilated. 
I know the type of kiwis who claim all drugs are crap just because they hang out with wrong circles. you want good shit in NZ you have to work your way into better things. Usually that involves rolling people over who sell you junk so they pack up and it cleans up the game in the area. 

Anybody in this country if they had half a brain and enough money can go buy ounces or even hundreds of grams of really good mdma and even 1000's of pressies if they wanted too.


----------



## androoo

i have access to 'moon rock' 'topaz rock' 'goldrush' 'alpha supreme' and all the other random names they come up with.. and yes to large amounts, pressed pills.. we may have access via a similar 'app' (i'm not going to go in to details)... i am still yet to have any mdma that makes me actually smile


----------



## TripSitterNZ

androoo said:


> i have access to 'moon rock' 'topaz rock' 'goldrush' 'alpha supreme' and all the other random names they come up with.. and yes to large amounts, pressed pills.. we may have access via a similar 'app' (i'm not going to go in to details)... i am still yet to have any mdma that makes me actually smile


Your going to have to come to terms with losing the magic then. Its a real thing for some people its all down to brain chemistry. Maybe go do copious amounts of DMT and LSD and shrooms to reset your brain to feel mdma again.

Even online you have to able to differentiate between bad product and good product. I dont do brown or black mdma for a good reason most the weight is solvent or  biproducts.

On the streets in auckland every fucking person and their nana seems to have cheap ounces of very good mdma for sale. Though the king cobras prob mad their triad connection got busted.


----------



## androoo

TripSitterNZ said:


> Your going to have to come to terms with losing the magic then. Its a real thing for some people its all down to brain chemistry. Maybe go do copious amounts of DMT and LSD and shrooms to reset your brain to feel mdma again.
> 
> Even online you have to able to differentiate between bad product and good product. I dont do brown or black mdma for a good reason most the weight is solvent or  biproducts.
> 
> On the streets in auckland every fucking person and their nana seems to have cheap ounces of very good mdma for sale. Though the king cobras prob mad their triad connection got busted.



dmt & lsd won't reset your brain so you can enjoy mdma again  the first mdma crystal i ever had in 2001 was brown/orange, i was sooo loved up i proposed to my g/f at the time... i have met so many people like you that bang on about losing the magic, the mdma is amazing blah blah blah.. It's completely pointless trying to convince you that it's crap mdma. We'll just have to both agree to disagree and hope that this little mystery is solved


----------



## draculic acid69

I


wereallmadhere said:


> Hey guys, im sure nobody remembers my preious posts to this thread... as in being a pure sceptic of this whole idea, until my source changed, and my rolls changed... for the worst as soon as I switched to dark net sourced material. In any case, I have acquired a fairly good chunk of the old "magic" , and I fully intent to closely look at ,and see how reagent reactions compare. Once confirmed to be as good as the old suppy, and is indeed magic. I would gladly sacrafice a cap for lab testing, or if anyone here wanted to do any sort of testing on it... only id need some donations to cover cost of cap and testing. I am real, real curious how this stuff would lab test, but after the cash  i dropped on this stuff and the rarity of it, I would for sure need some monetary assistance. I plan to roll on the new stuf first (still have two old magic caps) just to make sure the new batch (from same source) still as the amazing mdma magic I fell in love with 2+ years ago. I still have complete magic as of my last roll, so if its good , im expecting a mind blowing exp. Haven't rolled on the magic since the end of Aug. '19. And props to everyone in this thread, with possibly except of vash. :D Even tho I have my doubts this issue will be solved, it would be nice to know what the issue is even  if the ww clandestine labs would likely keep pumping out the same cheap. knockoff like experience of MDMA.
> 
> PS My biggest thought on meh/vs magic. The magic has a rocket ship come up. Like your strapped to the outside of a rocket, and when you reach destination... You are on another planet. Physiological effects are much more intense... Clenching is like chomping down and you don't even realize till 5 mins later :D, heart rate is obviously up compared to meh... sweating profushihiely even in cool environments music sounds like its being pumped directly to your brain from another planet. :D But if you have had the genuine article, its going to just be a complete disappointment. Forgot... The come up on meh is so slow and slight, you don't even really realize you have come up until you start noticing things... like music sounds a bit better, my hair/body feels amazing, hands m feet cold from the vasoconstriction, talking peoples ears off... lol So ill be rolling on the new supply in maybe two weeks  and will be back with a full, hopefully happy report. Sure hope this stuff is the real artical, as I could have purchase in bulk online and gotten a fuckin oz :D  This will also give me time to try some other sources and save these good ones for the really special occasionans like my bday, and one festival/rave a year. Maybe I will strike gold and find a quantity of crystal magic on the dn, or my other go to a particular rave social media app. lol.
> 
> 
> One more thing... reading the differences between R/S mdma, its almost like this shit is R isomer dominated, which is where the body high, and some other good effects come from. While the S type is more potent, as far more stimulating and dopaminergic. Now his probably isnt the problem, but on other rolls, I felt like where is the fucking dopamine and stimulaion. :/ The stimulation from the magic, is the cleanest, purest more eurphoric stimulant I have ever done. And its totally missing from the "Meh"batches. Its almost like since the dutch dont like meth, they took the meth side of mdma out of it. :D Just a joke kinda. Haha. Anyway thanks for reading this far if you did , and to all yall investigating this issue. I have done plenty of drugs, and no drug has had such varying effects between different batches... :/ I also wonder what would happen if you dropped a little adderal on to some meh stuff? Surely the dopamine/stim side would make a better entrance, hehe.
> One more interesting note...  Last time I did the magic stuff at the end f aug, that roll was ever bit as magic, if not fucking more than very first roll. And this is coming from someone with 15+ rolls since end of Jan '18, and did not roll period until I was 41, so no burned out nostalgic raver here...
> 
> Also I could kinda see certain type of people actually liking the meh more... Its very chill nd relaxing, opening and takes down the fear response, personality guards etc.. just like classic mdma. But if you dont want to be stimmed up as if your on a shorter acting meth, I could see liking the more chill stuff, especially for a home roll with ur chick just cudling, talking, etc... anyway. Sorry for the rant, not on meth but I did take a 30mg adderal a couple hours ago. :D


We all know how magic tests to marquis and mandelin but we really need info on reagent testing meh stuff and the difference between the two.


----------



## Simosom

@wereallmadhere 
Well explained. 
It would be perfect if someone like indigoaura or g_chem can test and confirm the magic sample. 

@TripSitterNZ 
mdma effects are not rely on set and setting as psyhidelics are.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ and @androoo, Reading your back and forth, it seems possible the two of you are just in different areas and traveling different circles. @androoo, can you try any of the specific presses @TripSitterNZ is talking about? The two of you could work together to try to resolve what is going on there in NZ specifically. I don't think either one of you should doubt what the other is saying. It is entirely possible that Tripsitter is getting quality product and androoo is not. If both of you took the exact same thing, and Tripsitter's eyes dilated but androoo's did not, then that would be very valuable information that we have not received from anyone yet.

Would both of you be willing to fill out a questionnaire from Drugs Data regarding your specific experience when rolling?

I want to point out that the effects of MDMA are both subjective and observable. A sober person could watch people on MDMA and comment on the level of eye dilation, movement, appearance of jaw, how often the affected people are touching things etc. Observable phenomenon may be more reliable than subjective comments. Someone who never had access to anything besides "meh" product may not understand what the difference is. They may find the "meh" experience to be magical by their terms. We may need to develop a system of measurement to describe the subjective experience.

I agree that @G_Chem is probably the best person to comment on the specific differences between reagent testing for magic and meh. I do not personally have access to magic. I may be a case of tolerance. Wish I knew! Before all this coronavirus stuff happened, I was hoping to travel to some different regions and try some different products, but that is not going to be possible now, unfortunately. I hope all of you are staying safe and well.


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> This issue was recently discussed on another site and the person who started that thread claimed to have been making it and knew other people making it and was also getting this meh stuff from other producers.anyway after a few pages this person performed a purification process called column chromatography on the meh stuff and lo and behold the now purified stuff was no longer meh but was now magic.not sure what kind of ratio of  meh to magic there was so don't ask.mass production of mdma has always(mostly) been via the leuckart method with precursors already made by chemical companies who will analyze what they've synthesized before sending it off to be made into mdma so unless some mass production crews  are trying new methods and not purifying there starting or  end  product theres  only one thing i can think of is that it could  be an isomer of mdma such as the nitrogen being at the 1 or 3 position instead of the 2 position.doesnt really seem to be other possibilities.
> I'm wondering if it's the commercial mdp2p rearranging into the more stable mdp1p as it apparently does if not stored in the cold or kept too long.using this in a leuckart/mercury aluminium amalgam rxn would yeild
> the mdpropyl1methylamine instead of mdpropyl2methylamine compound.im not sure if this can fool a GC/ms analysis or it's operator.it would explain why its still active albeit not very good (it's got an entry in pihkal doesn't it) and why it looks the same as mdma on gc/ms as it's all the same groups but someone who understands GC/ms stuff will have to answer that one.point being it's either a problem with old ketone or lack of purification at the end but no one ever until now has had to resort to column chromatography for purifying there mdma just to make it active.



Leuckart hasn’t been commonly used since the late 90’s/early 00’s.  Also that person you speaking of was probably Vash with another username.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> Another possibility is that the bromosafrole method was used and the hbr acid they used contained  a lot of free bromine and that caused a significant amount of the md3bromo compound to be made along with  the md2bromo compound which when aminated would lead to the nitrogen attaching in the 3position instead of the 2 position.but the chance of this low yeilding method with this specific mistake being used  on a big enough scale for all these different ppl to be getting the meh stuff with this being the cause are probably very low but its possible.
> Is this meh stuff just a u.s. problem or is it worldwide? Is this a problem with Australian mdma as well? How long has it been going on? R ppl in Europe also getting this?



You should know bromosafrole method is almost never used and certainly not large scale.  We already know catalytic hydrogenation via platinum catalyst is the most common method these days.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> The leuckart was used bcoz on such a large scale it's simple to do,the ingredients are cheap and available and the yeild is as good as any other method.its probably still being used as there's no way nmf is harder to get than it used to be and because of that I doubt it will stop being used.



Please just quit.  You obviously have no clue what your talking about... Leuckart averages 30-40%, whereas near quantitative yields can be had with many other routes.

Yes “ingredients” (we baking cakes here?) are easy to get but again it’s finicky, produces lower yields, and leaves impurities which ARE active and may give a better effect.

Some impurities can be active and positive in their own right, MDA and MDEA are two which can occur that come to mind.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

psy997 said:


> This is not the case given how many users that have experienced MehDMA have experienced MagicDMA experiences just before and/or after Meh experiences. Especially Hilopsilo who rolled with an entire group on Meh one night, then used another batch the next night and had a totally different, classically Magic experience. Set and setting is important, but it doesn't cover the effects seen with Meh.
> 
> 
> 
> I am starting to get curious about why Australian/NZ users here seem more likely to have not ever experienced Meh. It is a very good question that I, too, hold.
> 
> 
> 
> Low dosed / impure product also doesn't fit the bill considering bumping up dosage does nothing except (usually) make the experience even more meh. Plus, 40mg of MDMA plugged is more than enough for pure ecstacy - I've done it multiple times - and that amount of Meh plugged is nothing like it.



It’s because Aus still has a decent source of safrole as well as a better than realized domestic production.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> @TripSitterNZ and @androoo, Reading your back and forth, it seems possible the two of you are just in different areas and traveling different circles. @androoo, can you try any of the specific presses @TripSitterNZ is talking about? The two of you could work together to try to resolve what is going on there in NZ specifically. I don't think either one of you should doubt what the other is saying. It is entirely possible that Tripsitter is getting quality product and androoo is not. If both of you took the exact same thing, and Tripsitter's eyes dilated but androoo's did not, then that would be very valuable information that we have not received from anyone yet.
> 
> Would both of you be willing to fill out a questionnaire from Drugs Data regarding your specific experience when rolling?
> 
> I want to point out that the effects of MDMA are both subjective and observable. A sober person could watch people on MDMA and comment on the level of eye dilation, movement, appearance of jaw, how often the affected people are touching things etc. Observable phenomenon may be more reliable than subjective comments. Someone who never had access to anything besides "meh" product may not understand what the difference is. They may find the "meh" experience to be magical by their terms. We may need to develop a system of measurement to describe the subjective experience.
> 
> I agree that @G_Chem is probably the best person to comment on the specific differences between reagent testing for magic and meh. I do not personally have access to magic. I may be a case of tolerance. Wish I knew! Before all this coronavirus stuff happened, I was hoping to travel to some different regions and try some different products, but that is not going to be possible now, unfortunately. I hope all of you are staying safe and well.



Funny thing I just obtained fresh reagents, quite a selection too.  Today or tomorrow I’ll go over all the various batches in my possession and see what I find.

I was gonna do this before but I wasn’t happy with the age of my reagents.

-GC


----------



## androoo

indigoaura said:


> @TripSitterNZ and @androoo, Reading your back and forth, it seems possible the two of you are just in different areas and traveling different circles. @androoo, can you try any of the specific presses @TripSitterNZ is talking about? The two of you could work together to try to resolve what is going on there in NZ specifically. I don't think either one of you should doubt what the other is saying. It is entirely possible that Tripsitter is getting quality product and androoo is not. If both of you took the exact same thing, and Tripsitter's eyes dilated but androoo's did not, then that would be very valuable information that we have not received from anyone yet.
> 
> Would both of you be willing to fill out a questionnaire from Drugs Data regarding your specific experience when rolling?
> 
> I want to point out that the effects of MDMA are both subjective and observable. A sober person could watch people on MDMA and comment on the level of eye dilation, movement, appearance of jaw, how often the affected people are touching things etc. Observable phenomenon may be more reliable than subjective comments. Someone who never had access to anything besides "meh" product may not understand what the difference is. They may find the "meh" experience to be magical by their terms. We may need to develop a system of measurement to describe the subjective experience.
> 
> I agree that @G_Chem is probably the best person to comment on the specific differences between reagent testing for magic and meh. I do not personally have access to magic. I may be a case of tolerance. Wish I knew! Before all this coronavirus stuff happened, I was hoping to travel to some different regions and try some different products, but that is not going to be possible now, unfortunately. I hope all of you are staying safe and well.


Of course, do you have a link for the questionnaire? Ta


----------



## draculic acid69

I


G_Chem said:


> Leuckart hasn’t been commonly used since the late 90’s/early 00’s.  Also that person you speaking of was probably Vash with another username.
> 
> -GC


I think Ur right about the cash thing.
Mercury aluminium amalgam probably became more popular along with sodium borohydride but I doubt the leuckart isn't still being used today.if your buying 100 litres of mdp2p from china u might as well order a couple of hundred litres of nmf as well.


----------



## andyturbo

draculic acid69 said:


> Another possibility is that the bromosafrole method was used and the hbr acid they used contained  a lot of free bromine and that caused a significant amount of the md3bromo compound to be made along with  the md2bromo compound which when aminated would lead to the nitrogen attaching in the 3position instead of the 2 position.but the chance of this low yeilding method with this specific mistake being used  on a big enough scale for all these different ppl to be getting the meh stuff with this being the cause are probably very low but its possible.
> Is this meh stuff just a u.s. problem or is it worldwide? Is this a problem with Australian mdma as well? How long has it been going on? R ppl in Europe also getting this?



Nearly all of Australias MDMA currently is Imported from the Netherlands. Over the past two decades there has been a handful of local  productions busted but they rare.

As of lately the Netherlands stuff ranges from a brownish colour too a lighter tan. I imagine thats whats geting around mostly in the UK and Europe.


----------



## goaskalex

Dunno about the stuff where the rest of y'all live, but in Orlando, Molly is just crushed up Aspirin with a little bit of coke in it.


----------



## draculic acid69

goaskalex said:


> Dunno about the stuff where the rest of y'all live, but in Orlando, Molly is just crushed up Aspirin with a little bit of coke in it.


I doubt that's the standard.


----------



## draculic acid69

andyturbo said:


> Nearly all of Australias MDMA currently is Imported from the Netherlands. Over the past two decades there has been a handful of local  productions busted but they rare.
> 
> As of lately the Netherlands stuff ranges from a brownish colour too a lighter tan. I imagine thats whats geting around mostly in the UK and Europe.


Yeh I know it's all European and they've been getting it right for a long time now.so why all of a sudden is it not right? Also I've never heard of meh stuff in Australia.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

draculic acid69 said:


> Yeh I know it's all European and they've been getting it right for a long time now.so why all of a sudden is it not right? Also I've never heard of meh stuff in Australia.


On the DM's at least, its been all meh for over 10 years


----------



## draculic acid69

ThreePointCircle said:


> On the DM's at least, its been all meh for over 10 years


I doubt ppl would repeatedly buy it if that was the norm


----------



## andyturbo

draculic acid69 said:


> I doubt ppl would repeatedly buy it if that was the norm



You would be surprised man. Sadly the less informed and newer users wouldnt know the difference.


----------



## AutoTripper

androoo said:


> dmt & lsd won't reset your brain so you can enjoy mdma again


Despite me not having taken MDMA since 2005, I am satisfied in my mind the Meh does exist.

At the same time, I have to respect @TripSitterNZ 's report and experience.

But I do definitely believe in the phenemenon of psychedellics to be able to restore the magic and full effects of MDMA, and also that regular psychedelic use particularly LSD and mushrooms alongside MDMA usage in a poly drug type situation.

Probably more so with mushrooms, Im guessing, they genuinely do have the effect of restoring seretonin function and general chemical neurotransmitter balance within the brain I believe.

Psilocybin mushrooms I have seen recommended after experiencing Lyme disease because it is claimed that the borrelia bacteria basically destroys the serotonin receptors or some part of the system.  It was said the shrooms can do some magic to bring things back to life.

And I have already documented my own account and experience around here how I was using LSD and mushrooms regularly alongside my MDMA is and I never lost the magic and I always experience an exhilarating refreshment and renewal of consciousness and emotional Outlook feeling from the psychedelics.

So I understand where @TripSitterNZ is coming from on that point. Im sure there will be some science to demonstrate this hopefully at some point.

But @androoo I'm not disagreeing with or challenging you regarding your experience of MehDMA.


----------



## goaskalex

draculic acid69 said:


> I doubt that's the standard.



It is but go off I guess. 

Bought some once that definitely had meth in it. Every other time I've had some here or in Longwood from different dealers, it's always been Aspirin and coke.


----------



## psy997

andyturbo said:


> You would be surprised man. Sadly the less informed and newer users wouldnt know the difference.



Unfortunately this is true. People just don't know any better. I've seen it time and time again to the point that I no longer trust anyone besides myself re: MDMA quality.

Also, a question for those of you that claim perma-tolerance, issues with users, etc. instead of issues with product quality:
If the MehDMA phenomenon is due to users' biology, why then can those of us that experience MehDMA reliably roll on -APBs and -MAPBs?
Personally, 6-APB still takes me to 95% of where MagicDMA takes me. That shouldn't be the case if something is wrong with my biology, considering the similarity of MOA.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Mercury aluminium amalgam probably became more popular along with sodium borohydride but I doubt the leuckart isn't still being used today.


So the Leucart synth route uses Mercury ?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Also, why is it that those of us with 'perma-tolerance', have 'lost the magic' and take it in the wrong set and setting; occasionally get a batch that makes us go "fuck yeh!"..? The effects profiles of the bad and the bangin' are very different and instantly recognisable.


----------



## sekio

Every single drug has some aspect of "set and setting" infuencing their effects... to say otherwise is foolish 

And yeah it's my understanding nobody uses leuckart rxn for bulk production of MDMA. The yields are shit. Smaller batches would use Al amalgam (Shulgin style) but large batches would benefit ftom using Pt or Pd catalyst and H2. You would be better off hydrolysing your NMF and reductively aminating with methylamine. All of these are well-documented reactions that yield known products in a reliable fashion...


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> So the Leucart synth route uses Mercury ?



Nope it typically uses formamide (for MDA) and methylformamide (for MDMA).

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@goaskalex - This thread is for discussing the variation between batches of MDMA that a laboratory would identify as MDMA. There have always been "fake" ecstasy pills and "fake" molly. If you sent that in to a lab like Drugs Data, they would tell you it is coke and asprin, or it is DXM, or meth or whatever it is. No mystery there. It isn't what it is supposed to be, and the lab will confirm that.

We are specifically interested in why lab tested MDMA has significant variation between batches. In other words, if you send it to a lab, the lab says it is MDMA, but it feels totally different from another batch of MDMA that the lab also says is MDMA.


----------



## indigoaura

I know we have touched on this before, but I just want to re-iterate it again.

There is variation between the meh batches as well.

I know I have talked a lot about not finding the type of MDMA that I prefer; a type that would match the quality around in the early 00s.

If that "magic" MDMA is on one end of the spectrum, there is a whole spectrum between that magic and the worst of the "meh" batches.

Some of the worst "meh" batches I have had not only make me physically sick but also have negative effects such as intense "anti-social" vibes. I may be laid up for a week afterwards with physical illness.

Some of them create a relaxed feeling for an hour or two, but nothing too impressive, but nothing too bad either. Kind of like a .5 mg xanax.

I felt pretty thrilled to discover a batch without the "sick" side effect and some minimal pro-social effect that kept me talking and socializing.

Someone asked why people keep buying it...well, I know I am not getting what I want. However, there is that *hope.* There is some effect that is different from baseline sobriety. One of my friends who tests batches with me actually likes some of the minimal Meh effects for public events like concerts. Nobody can tell he is on anything, there are no visual "tells," but he gets a minimal boost that is different from alcohol.


----------



## Simosom

Yes, the minimal effect is the one i like. 
I go full sober 4 hour after ingesting. 
Remember going home at 6am after one pill taken at 23h, scared if i am looking good to go in public. 
Meh is very set and setting dependent. 
With same batch, I had a decent role one week after first not so good rolling. 
It should be opposite, as mdma is a serotonin releaser. 
With magic, i can roll anywhere and have a great time, of course with considerable time between rolls.


----------



## indigoaura

> Meh is very set and setting dependent.



@Simosom I have not found that to be the case, personally. Set and setting implies that a really positive setting with good vibes would have a similar effect on the experience. I have had Meh product absolutely ruin a good time that would have been great if I had just opted to stay sober. It seems to run absolutely contrary to typical set and setting rules. Usually, if I am having a great time, and it is a great day, with great vibes that is a good time to take a hallucinogen because it will all be amplified. Obviously, there can be exceptions to that, but as a general guideline it works. However, that is NOT the case with mehDMA. I chalk the variation up to undetected adulterants, personally. It may not be uniformly mixed and as a result there are different ratios within the mehDMA. 

I do agree with you though that traditional "magic" MDMA can produce an excellent time despite a terrible set and setting (and I have experienced that many times).


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> Nope it typically uses formamide (for MDA) and methylformamide (for MDMA).


Thanks, so what is the name of the route that uses Mercury ?


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I chalk the variation up to undetected adulterants, personally. It may not be uniformly mixed and as a result there are different ratios within the mehDMA.


So wouldn't it make sense to learn how to do preparative column chromatography at home, in order to separate the different ingredients of the "Meh MDMA" ?
How expensive would the glassware and the powders/gells be ?

Of course you'd need a source of "user tested" batches of "MDMA" to compare.  (virgin users preferably).
...OR an ability to send the unknown fractions to a decent lab for proper identification ?  I wouldn't want to send the real MDMA fraction to just any lab, though...


----------



## indigoaura

> So wouldn't it make sense to learn how to do preparative column chromatography at home, in order to separate the different ingredients of the "Meh MDMA" ?
> How expensive would the glassware and the powders/gells be ?



If someone who knows how to do it can create a step by step guide, preferably with pics or video, made for dummies who do not have a lot of background knowledge, then I would be more than happy to attempt this. I will also be glad to send off the fractions to Drugs Data for analysis.


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 , this post (#2689) goes into some of the approaches and results noted by an old Hive chemist:





__





						What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
					

@Glubrahnum - Would you please provide a brief overview of what synth methods contain mercury? I thought that the synth from organic safrole was the synth more likely to produce the magic product (based on what we have talked about here). Is that not what we are looking for? Isn't one of the...




					www.bluelight.org
				




al/hg is the method with mercury, as far as I understand it. Other users like @G_Chem can confirm.

@Glubrahnum explains it here: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14636905


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> So the Leucart synth route uses Mercury ?


No mercury aluminium amalgam is a different reaction.its the next most used method.


----------



## draculic acid69

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Also, why is it that those of us with 'perma-tolerance', have 'lost the magic' and take it in the wrong set and setting; occasionally get a batch that makes us go "fuck yeh!"..? The effects profiles of the bad and the bangin' are very different and instantly recognisable.


It's obviously not a tolerance issue and ppl who keep pushing  that idea aren't helping


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> If someone who knows how to do it can create a step by step guide, preferably with pics or video, made for dummies who do not have a lot of background knowledge, then I would be more than happy to attempt this. I will also be glad to send off the fractions to Drugs Data for analysis.


This is what needs to be done 
Finding out what else is in the meh will help us determine if it's a route specific problem causing this.


----------



## draculic acid69

draculic acid69 said:


> This is what needs to be done
> Finding out what else is in the meh will help us determine if it's a route specific problem causing this.


By route specific I mean finding out how the meh is being made is of the upmost importance.if it's a new method with different precursors or whether something is happening with established methods


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Thanks, so what is the name of the route that uses Mercury ?


Mercury aluminium amalgam reduction is what it's called.


----------



## vecktor

draculic acid69 said:


> Mercury aluminium amalgam reduction is what it's called.



No it is not, it is reductive amination with Amalgamated Aluminium or Aluminum Amalgam, it is not a different route it is just a different method of doing reductive amination using a different reducing agent. Mostly called Al(Hg) or Al/Hg reduction by chemists.
Bt definition amalgams always contain Mercury.

The way to do this is to sample as many Mehs or Magics before consumption by taking 10mg off and and keeping it labelled, 
Then running GC-MS or LC-MS with heavy sample or even overloading and a full temperature program and looking in the undergrowth of the GC-MS results. To avoid the overloading technique better still use an antisolvent like Ether or MTBA or even TAME or CPME to extract the sample without basification and concentrate and inject the ether extract, again with a full temperature program, the trace junk will end up in the antisolvent.

If there is a significant chemical difference between Meh and Magic it will be seen by going through the two sets of data.


----------



## psy997

Yes to there being a spectrum from Magic to Meh.

And yes to the fact that MehDMA can absolutely ruin a good time. This is, in my opinion, paramount to our inquiry. It speaks volumes that a beautiful and magical psychedelic experience can be ruined by ingesting MehDMA during the experience.


----------



## sekio

I just saw a mention of different salts of MDMA in an earlier post in this thread, here's a thought:
1. Different salts have different solubility parameters.
2. Slow, or incomplete absorbtion of the salt could lead to lower blood concentrations.
3. The average chromatography test will usually react pills with aqueous base and then extract organics with e.g. chloroform. This would mean that the MDMA would indeed be detected as MDMA and would appear as potent a pill as any other.

The problem here is:
1.  I would think that most common salts of MDMA would have significant water solubility and you'd have to go out of your way to do. Effectively every single MDMA recipe I know of makes the hydrochloride salt. I think the phosphate salt might have been a thing? I do know that you usually have to go out of your way with wacky aromatic salts (napthalenesulfonate, benzenesulfonate, etc) or polymers to make compositions that don't dissolve as rapidly in water.
2. Analysis could be modified to also check the identity of the counterion in the salt, maybe through LC-MS or some proper ion chromatography/electrophoresis (of which I have little practical experience).
3. Lower blood levels of MDMA present would be a dead giveaway.
4. Different salts of MDMA would have different crystal shapes.
5. I have a feeling dissolving the pills in e.g. cola beforehand could effectively convert the MDMA to a "known good" salt (I believe the phsophate & citrate should both be highly bioavailiable)
6. Your small intestine in concert with bile salts as emulsifiers should convert the salt to a freebase in a PTC reaction of sorts anyway?

Vecktor's idea of triturating the compound with antisolvent and running anlysis on the liquid is known as "Swish TLC" when one uses TLC as analysis and is a cool pharmacy chemistry trick. Fractional equilibrium dissolution I think it's called. Maybe use a few diff solvents in paralell washes for ideal maximum screening power, If you can't find you mystery impurity on GCMS with that it's not there 

Also worth considering, GC-GC-MS. GC's can be set up to use two different seperation media to give an additional means of seperating compounds that may co-elute with others (if you are too lazy to pick a proper column in the first place, IMO).


----------



## psy997

@sekio I finally read up on GC-MS and it seems like quite a nuanced technique with many modes of running it. Is it possible that current GC-MS tests have missed low level contaminants due to running in modes that can't detect unspecified contaminants at such low levels? Could running tandem MS/MS / GC-tandem MS or some other variant possibly yield results otherwise lacking?

This is a question I had a few days ago reading the Wikipedia article on GC-MS, and it seems like you're proposing something similar with your last sentence, ie. a variant testing method. Though, maybe running a column removes the need for any of it.


----------



## indigoaura

> And yes to the fact that MehDMA can absolutely ruin a good time. This is, in my opinion, paramount to our inquiry. It speaks volumes that a beautiful and magical psychedelic experience can be ruined by ingesting MehDMA during the experience.



I have also had an experience where I was on some better than average "Meh" product and I was enjoying my evening, and then I ran out of that batch. So, I went back to my standby "meh" batch and it completely changed the vibe and ruined the roll. The roll was not perfect, mind you, but it was a hell of a lot better than my typical "meh" product.

I think one of the challenges here is actually knowing what method was used to create the product. You can't trust what is being said on the DW, and most of us do not have direct contact with whoever made the product. When I have tried to get more details about the process, I am usually stonewalled.

@sekio We've tossed the salt idea around a few times. You mentioned that "Different salts of MDMA would have different crystal shapes." Would that be visible to the eye? @G_Chem and others have noted that their "magic" supply has a specific look to the crystal. Do you think dissolving MDMA crystal in cola is a worthwhile experiment?


----------



## draculic acid69

I doubt that anyone is bothering to make some obscure salt form of the product like the naphthyl sulfonate or whatever.the cost and the fact it isn't off the shelf make it a very unlikely possibility.hcl, sulfuric acid and phosphoric being the common acids used to salt mdma quite cheaply make something 10-50x the price unlikely.even if someone used acetic acid or succinic, fumaric or tartaric I imagine that they'll still be soluble enough not to cause noticeable reduction in effects being food acids in all.i can't really think of why someone would go out of there way to use a more toxic possibly poisonous hard to get more costly acid just to make there product shittier.not just that but it would have shown up on an analysis right?


----------



## sekio

That's exactly where I came to end up with my thinking on the issue


----------



## user666

But wouldn't using a cheap heavy acid to salt the MDMA base increase the profit of the manufacturer because of the weight difference?
e.g. citric acid or L-tartaric acid.


----------



## user666

@Vector

Would L-tartaric acid preferentially react with one MDMA base enantiomer ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

No lol. They aint doing that MDMA is so fucking cheap per gram at wholesale production around $x a gram or less the total cost of production per gram is in the cents maybe xx cents or less. All mdma is hydro chloride salts they bust these labs with tens of tons of HCL

-Edit Prices removed. Andy


----------



## user666

*@TripSitterNZ*

Maybe that's true only in your neck of the woods.
Aren't you the guy that doesn't encounter any Meh MDMA in your neighborhood ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

All this countrys mdma is imported from holland and grams are super cheap at bulk wholesale and thats been resold at a profit already. The people in holland sell mdma by the hundreds of kgs for dirt cheap.


----------



## user666

So you were referring to these tonne busts in your home country New Zealand or Holland ?


----------



## tired of crap

I’m really starting to wish my family never migrated from Holland


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Its the massive busts in holland i read the dutch news. Tens of tons of chemicals seized on the regular especially from poland nationals.


----------



## SlowandFastandSlow

Have you guys seen the study that measured the binding affinities and transporter blockade of MDMA synthesis byproducts?

It was posted to Reddit t'other week, can't remember if it was dated 2019 or 2020

Nowhere near, 2005 lol

Edit: https://www.researchgate.net/public...with_Recombinant_Human_Monoamine_Transporters


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> But wouldn't using a cheap heavy acid to salt the MDMA base increase the profit of the manufacturer because of the weight difference?
> e.g. citric acid or L-tartaric acid.


No.


----------



## indigoaura

SlowandFastandSlow said:


> Have you guys seen the study that measured the binding affinities and transporter blockade of MDMA synthesis byproducts?
> 
> It was posted to Reddit t'other week, can't remember if it was dated 2019 or 2020
> 
> Nowhere near, 2005 lol
> 
> Edit: https://www.researchgate.net/public...with_Recombinant_Human_Monoamine_Transporters



Yes. This is one of the primary articles that I think points to the possibility of active contaminants as the issue. Here is a link to the full text, if you want to read it.


			Sci-Hub | Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, 314(1), 346–354 | 10.1124/jpet.105.084426


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> No.


Why?
Is citric acid or L-tartaric acid so much more expensive than hydrochloric acid ?


----------



## vecktor

user666 said:


> Why?
> Is citric acid or L-tartaric acid so much more expensive than hydrochloric acid ?


Draculic acid is wrong, if you have the sama amount of mdma base you can make more weight of cirate or tartarate  Tartrate than  hydrochloride. The molecular weights tell you that, citric acid 190 ish da molecular weight hydrochloride 36. citric acid and tartaric acid are really cheap.  but it is even cheaper to cut the hydrochloride salt with water and salts


----------



## user666

Would L-tartaric acid react preferentially with one MDMA base enantiomer ?


----------



## Branggen

This kind of reminds me of how everyone wanted classic wow to come back and when it did it was not as amazing as people remembered. Playrate dropped massively after like 6 months. Nostalgia is a beautiful thing, though it can disappoint. That's just my opinion on it.


----------



## user666

Branggen said:


> Nostalgia is a beautiful thing, though it can disappoint. That's just my opinion on it.


Since when Nostalgia affects mydriasis ?


----------



## sekio

> Would L-tartaric acid react preferentially with one MDMA base enantiomer ?



probably, the classic way to resolve amphetamine isomers uses it I think, one isomer of amphetamine forms a crystalline salt and the other forms a liquid/soluble salt that stays in solution...


----------



## Branggen

user666 said:


> Since when Nostalgia affects mydriasis ?


I've heard people saying that, I never had the issue myself when I used m a number of times in 2015-2017 from many batches. I know with pretty much every drug the level of euphoria and effects in general have some relation to age as well as experience with that drug.(regardless of tolerance/chemical brain changes). I know people have used the example of their friend trying some for the first time and it wasn't good but sometimes people can have bad trips even on mdma if they are nervous.  Im not to sure about any of this but maybe its the dose, dont most testing sites only tell you what chemicals are found not the specific dosages.  Or maybe when mdma is taken in these huge doses it has a different effect like how kratom does, maybe a specific isomer takes over at specific doses just random thoughts. We lose the magic with lots of things in life though, just think about how magical everything is to a child doing something for the first time, I think trying a drug for the first time is sort of the same thing, you are about to experience something brand new to you just as a child does with each of its "firsts".   Who knows maybe the great white north just has lots of the "magic" stuff.


----------



## user666

Branggen said:


> I've heard people saying that, I never had the issue myself when I used m a number of times in 2015-2017 from many batches.


Have  you ever heard of virgin users experiencing the nostalgia ?


----------



## Branggen

I think first timers are somewhat likely to be worried and not feel that great especially if around someone saying that it sucks while also on it or if they had heard something similiar prior to taking it. I feel like most peoples second doses of mdma are probably pretty good lol I dunno its been awhile since Ive done it so I am just speculating you guys could certainly be on to something I have had less than the best roles for sure


----------



## TripSitterNZ

im 100% sure meh is bullshit. I saw randoms on the weekend during white mdma and soon as it kicked in they were huge pupil jaw grinding hugging everybody. 

Some people need to come to terms with projecting their own magic loss onto the experience and convincing themselves deeply psychologically somethings wrong is why it ruins their experience.   I also know people probably dont like been stared at while they are on drugs and analysed by people. People do their own shit on any drug and dont have to fit into the normal of been a annoying bastard hugging every random stranger instead some people are able to chill and control themselves and just want to chill out in bliss to the music. 

At the chemical level no isomers or impurities that would affect the experince are been detected in GCMS so people need to stop grasping at straws and realize it aint the mass production of mdma which is the problem is their own psychological selves and maybe they should just give up on mdma if they have these experinces sinces it no longer for them.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Why?
> Is citric acid or L-tartaric acid so much more expensive than hydrochloric acid ?


Yes.and tartaric acid will mean that the isomers will dissolve differently in things like methanol and chloroform separating them during recrystallization.(this is how the isomers are seperated)also sulfuric acid would weigh about the same as tartaric acid per mole.citric weighs more but that would mean instead of needing 100mg per dose of mdmahcl u would need like 250mg mdma citrate.so instead of smuggling 100kilos mdmahcl you'd need to smuggle 250kg mdmacitrate to get the same amount of mdma into the country + there's the cost + availability compared to sulfuric or hydrochloric acid.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Yes.and tartaric acid will mean that the isomers will dissolve differently in things like methanol and chloroform separating them.


Don't different isomers have different psychoactive effects ?



draculic acid69 said:


> also sulfuric acid would weigh about the same as tartaric acid per mole.citric would be less.


Does the MDMA base form the Ditartrate salt with the tartaric acid ...or the Monotartrate ?
What about the Dicitrate vs. Monocitrate ?


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Don't different isomers have different psychoactive effects ?
> 
> 
> Does the MDMA base form the Ditartrate salt with the tartaric acid ...or the Monotartrate ?
> What about the Dicitrate vs. Monocitrate ?


Yes the isomers produce different effects so that's a reason it's a stupid thing to do but might explain the meh phenomenon.but I would think that tartaric acid would show up on gcms analysis.as for the monosalt and disalts they can both be formed.it would be best to stick to one mole base to one mole acid.


----------



## Factualist

I think a lot of it has to do with one's milieu. In my experience, if you're a student getting drugs from other students or you just run in younger, more tech-savvy circles then there's a really good chance that the drugs you're taking came from the darknet at some point fairly recently into the supply chain. That is if the person you're a buying it from didn't order it themselves. There have been times where I've wanted something in a pinch or not enough of something to justify ordering it or whatever and I've sourced through friends and I could recognize specific products as being from specific vendors, as best as you can know something like that. I think it's a well known fact that the stuff you can get on darknet markets is in general so much unbelievably better than anything you could find on the street going through the old world outlets like the cartels and shady clandestine operations. It's almost like there are two different but intersecting drug cultures. One centralized with zero accountability and generally shitty products and one which is decentralized where you're getting much, much closer to the source and that source therefor has a direct reputation to defend.


----------



## G_Chem

Started on the reagent testing with all fresh reagents (all funded out of my own pocket lol) and I feel I’m noticing a trend, I’ll report back once I’m completely finished with the results.

-GC


----------



## Simosom

@Branggen 
" I know with pretty much every drug the level of euphoria and effects in general have some relation to age as well as experience with that drug." 
I am older now, i dont smoke weed anymore, i dont like it. 
I am not saying there is something wrong with weed available today.


----------



## Goodwalt

I'm sorry but the loss of magic theory doesn't work for me. I have used mdma intermittently during 2013-2014 and have used only one time since. It was last october. I had some yellow simcards (tested 200 mg mdma hcl) laying around from 2014 so I gave them a try. As expected, no pupil dilation, no love, no stimulation, only monginess and head high for 2 hours and brain zaps on the comedown. I don't buy the loss of magic nonsense tbh.


----------



## psy997

TripSitterNZ said:


> im 100% sure meh is bullshit. I saw randoms on the weekend during white mdma and soon as it kicked in they were huge pupil jaw grinding hugging everybody.
> 
> Some people need to come to terms with projecting their own magic loss onto the experience and convincing themselves deeply psychologically somethings wrong is why it ruins their experience.   I also know people probably dont like been stared at while they are on drugs and analysed by people. People do their own shit on any drug and dont have to fit into the normal of been a annoying bastard hugging every random stranger instead some people are able to chill and control themselves and just want to chill out in bliss to the music.
> 
> At the chemical level no isomers or impurities that would affect the experince are been detected in GCMS so people need to stop grasping at straws and realize it aint the mass production of mdma which is the problem is their own psychological selves and maybe they should just give up on mdma if they have these experinces sinces it no longer for them.



The points you're making re: projection also apply to everyone that is 100% sure that MehDMA is bullshit. Considering you've now stepped fully into the belief that it is bullshit, I would request that you begin stepping out of the thread unless new perspectives and explanations for your theory can be provided, useful information on production processes, routes, and systems can be shared, or you can contribute to eliminating potential possibilities. We've already heard what you're stating here dozens of times, and it doesn't help anyone to clog the thread with rehashed arguments over the reality of the phenomena. It's best for finding an issue, or finding that there's not an issue, to let the process continue.

Again, this is not a call to back out due to believing MehDMA is not an objective phenomena but instead, a request that only additive and productive criticisms be brought forward from the camp that is "No MehDMA." Anecdotal evidence based on experiencing MagicDMA, claims of projection (which you yourself are engaging in, TripSitterNZ), and lack of currently found evidence are not productive criticisms at this point in the thread.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

psy997 said:


> The points you're making re: projection also apply to everyone that is 100% sure that MehDMA is bullshit. Considering you've now stepped fully into the belief that it is bullshit, I would request that you begin stepping out of the thread unless new perspectives and explanations for your theory can be provided, useful information on production processes, routes, and systems can be shared, or you can contribute to eliminating potential possibilities. We've already heard what you're stating here dozens of times, and it doesn't help anyone to clog the thread with rehashed arguments over the reality of the phenomena. It's best for finding an issue, or finding that there's not an issue, to let the process continue.
> 
> Again, this is not a call to back out due to believing MehDMA is not an objective phenomena but instead, a request that only additive and productive criticisms be brought forward from the camp that is "No MehDMA." Anecdotal evidence based on experiencing MagicDMA, claims of projection (which you yourself are engaging in, TripSitterNZ), and lack of currently found evidence are not productive criticisms at this point in the thread.


I believe in chemistry. Anything that would affect mdma would of shown in GCMS. Instead a bunch of burnt out people abused mdma and now wonder why  they only feel a reaction every so often from it. Shuglins warned a long time ago for people not to do mdma more than ten times because some peoples receptors just cant handle it.

People have totally rejected science in this thread and instead have convinced themselves of all sorts of things. Old school users in denial that they acutally love meth mixed mdma pills of the 90s.

At the chemical level MDMA is MDMA the impurities that can affect how the experince have been studied and researched and thus would show up under GCMS results to prove if this was the case.

People are going to to the end of time convincing themselves that have not perma fried their receptors with very outlandish claims.

MDMA is purer than it ever has been chemistry has advanced with new methods making it easier to produce.

As a long time user i and no one i ever met in my life has ever come across meh.

If you dont get pupil dilation on mdma then the shit you took was not mdma. Just because people add a few mg of mdma to fool a regnant test and sold you crystsal that is mainly solvent md2p oil and other things then acutally claim that their MDMA is "tested"

If it doesnt have a full spectrum analysis via GCMS your mdma was never tested. Reagent tests have been easily fooled since they have been around.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

If we've 'permafried our receptors', why are we still capable of appreciating the good stuff when it appears..?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> If we've 'permafried our receptors', why are we still capable of appreciating the good stuff when it appears..?


Its a hit and a miss the good stuff is 100% if just that out the few times you manage to get a reaction you think that batch is 100% magic.

Im sure if u did the same "meh" stuff 50 times you would experince the magic a few times.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

TripSitterNZ said:


> Its a hit and a miss the good stuff is 100% if just that out the few times you manage to get a reaction you think that batch is 100% magic.
> 
> Im sure if u did the same "meh" stuff 50 times you would experince the magic a few times.



No. When I get a meh batch, it is consistently meh. When I get a good batch, it is consistently good.

Furthermore, it cant be put down to expectation either. I recently had a good run of getting good shit every time. Then one time I got some more and it looked exactly the same as previously so my expectations were high. But upon ingestion, I immediately  knew it was meh. Upon questioning my supply I found it was indeed a different batch. As I said before, the difference is striking and if you've never experienced substandard MDMA you must be very lucky.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> No. When I get a meh batch, it is consistently meh. When I get a good batch, it is consistently good.


Then the meh stuff if it would be tested via gcms and cross referenced to papers of impurities that affect how mdma works would appear. 

But i don't see any place actually offering in depth analysis GCM/S and taking the time to cross reference all known impurities that will affect the mdma experince  and instead if they find even a small amount of mdma the testing sites just say its mdma without listing every single microgram impurity that was also detected. 

We could say that Meh is simply trash made by people who didn't respect chemistry filled with so many impurities it fucks the whole thing up. But all i see these testing sites give out is shitty UV graphs and not taking anymore than a few mins out of their time to analyse all the small impurities present.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

TripSitterNZ said:


> Then the meh stuff if it would be tested via gcms and cross referenced to papers of impurities that affect how mdma works would appear.
> 
> But i don't see any place actually offering in depth analysis GCM/S and taking the time to cross reference all known impurities that will affect the mdma experince  and instead if they find even a small amount of mdma the testing sites just say its mdma without listing every single microgram impurity that was also detected.
> 
> We could say that Meh is simply trash made by people who didn't respect chemistry filled with so many impurities it fucks the whole thing up. But all i see these testing sites give out is shitty UV graphs and not taking anymore than a few mins out of their time to analyse all the small impurities present.



I think you have finally realised the purpose of this thread...  :D


----------



## ThreePointCircle

TripSitterNZ said:


> Then the meh stuff if it would be tested via gcms and cross referenced to papers of impurities that affect how mdma works would appear.
> 
> But i don't see any place actually offering in depth analysis GCM/S and taking the time to cross reference all known impurities that will affect the mdma experince  and instead if they find even a small amount of mdma the testing sites just say its mdma without listing every single microgram impurity that was also detected.
> 
> We could say that Meh is simply trash made by people who didn't respect chemistry filled with so many impurities it fucks the whole thing up. But all i see these testing sites give out is shitty UV graphs and not taking anymore than a few mins out of their time to analyse all the small impurities present.


Um, that's basically what we've all been saying


----------



## indigoaura

Wow.

@TripSitterNZ - I am not sure what your problem is. Do you actually read any of the links or information that is shared here or do you just state your opinion over and over?

"Anything that would affect mdma would of shown in GCMS." Not true. Multiple studies have already been posted that demonstrate that there are other substances that masquerade as MDMA to GCMS. Go find the links and read the articles. Links have also been posted that show that almost every synth method produces impurities. Yet, for some reason, GCMS results never show those impurities. Why? Go find the links and read the articles.

"Instead a bunch of burnt out people abused mdma." That is quite a judgmental statement. I personally always took long breaks between sessions and followed the guidelines of the era. Lots of other people have posted here with minimal histories of use.

"im 100% sure meh is bullshit. I saw randoms on the weekend during white mdma and soon as it kicked in they were huge pupil jaw grinding hugging everybody." Cool. You are lucky you have good stuff. I went to a rave recently and saw a bunch of people standing around with their arms crossed not moving. A few people had huge pupils with jaws grinding. It was visually OBVIOUS who had real MDMA. When I watch people at parties take MDMA, guess what? I don't see any huge pupils or jaw grinding. Why? Why are whole groups of people not experiencing the typical results of the product?

"Old school users in denial that they acutally love meth mixed mdma pills of the 90s." Since you like science so much, you should like the fact that I sent the pills I used to take to Ecstasy Data and THERE WAS NO METH IN THEM.

"If you dont get pupil dilation on mdma then the shit you took was not mdma. " Do you not read this thread? I send everything in for GCMS testing. Comments being made are not based on regeants.

"Then the meh stuff if it would be tested via gcms and cross referenced to papers of impurities that affect how mdma works would appear.

But i don't see any place actually offering in depth analysis GCM/S and taking the time to cross reference all known impurities that will affect the mdma experince and instead if they find even a small amount of mdma the testing sites just say its mdma without listing every single microgram impurity that was also detected." Dude, this is seriously what we want to see changed. We want better testing to identify what is going on with the bad batches.

Like...

I get it that this thread is long, but I am getting really tired of answering the same questions over and over that have been addressed ENDLESSLY within this thread. I also don't understand why there is this huge need to come here and argue with people. Kudos to you that you live on an island that gets good MDMA. Bravo! Until you have repeatedly witnessed the phenomenon that we have all witnessed, you are not going to believe us. If it was not a HUGE security risk, I could post videos for you and you would be able to SEE the difference in effects on people. I don't care if you agree or not. I don't care if you believe or not, but for goodness sake if you don't have anything constructive to offer then stopping clogging up our thread.


----------



## indigoaura

@Branggen I am sure you mean well. You are new to the thread. I can tell you have not actually read the thread. All I can say is that (in my experience), when good product was around, virgin users rolled harder than anyone. They would roll hard even on substandard product back in the day. If all the people trying a particular batch are not rolling, then there is something wrong with the batch. If your virgins, your old timers and EVERYONE is feeling MEH then the problem is not with EVERYONE'S mind. 

I have yet to have an experience where I saw some people rolling hard and others feeling meh.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Watching people do their own thing on a drug that is not like how you would be acting does not mean they are not rolling their mind out and instead are able to control themselves. Alot of people will just want to sit down and ride the waves of bliss and chill.

They are all using the same methods in holland so their are tons of amazing mdma produced each year that 99% of people have never had a problem with it. 

Though trying to convince people to stop placeboing themselves and look at the facts Meh really does not exist and just believing it does will negatively affect your experiences.  

I am part dutch and i spent a good part of my young adult hood in holland and PMK was still the number one thing back in 2004.

Their are labs literally cooking hundreds of kgs of mdma weekly and that product is still as good it ever was. If your getting meh its probably not even real dutch mdma but some junkie bathtub chemist job. 

People need to really stop doing all sorts of terrible looking mdma crystals.

The highest purity mdma would be the totally white crystals / powder if i  see white powder mdma i know its some really top stuff and 100 mg will have anybody rolling off their face into the high night. Clear rocks / off grey rocks are probably the next best stuff. 

I have seen mdma in so many different forms. I have seen Pure rocks that almost look like concrete fused together which while still tests as mdma on reagent has been put on GCMS and found to be in the realms of 35% purity. Most it still been md2p2 oil. 

Dutch mdma has not changed but just like how there was years ago everybody claims their stuff is dutch without actually getting it from holland themselves they would never know. I mean the real dutch stuff made in south holland along the Belgium border by professionals and not the sort of idiots who try setup a mdma lab and make whatever comes out here and ships it out to idiots dumb enough to pay first for it before taste testing the product.


----------



## indigoaura

"99% of people have never had a problem with it." Where are you getting these statistics from? Are you just making them up?

Look, man, seriously. What is up? Are you taking this personally because you feel like people are telling you that you are not getting good shit? Are you taking it personally because you are Dutch and you feel insulted on some level? What is the issue?

You are making statements like they are facts, but they are not facts. 

I prefer to be as anonymous as possible on here and not throw credentials around, but I am a highly educated person. I am not a chemist, but I understand how to evaluate sources and look for evidence. I understand the research process. We don't have the kind of concrete evidence that we need at this time to prove anything, but the anecdotal evidence is pointing to an issue of some kind.

"Meh really does not exist and just believing it does will negatively affect your experiences." So, the people who are being given product with no info whatsoever and still feel like it is not right...what impacted their experience?

I am done using my energy to argue with you. You can believe whatever you want to believe. 

Location does matter. You are in a very unusual geographic location. It seems like you are having some very high quality product imported. That is awesome. 

I have been very up front on here that I am not connected at all, I have no ability to test a lot of local product. My supply has been highly limited for a long time. Everyone who has tried the products I have access to agrees about them. I believe you that you are getting good stuff. How about you believe the people who are telling you the opposite?


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> I believe in chemistry. Anything that would affect mdma would of shown in GCMS.


Didn't Indigoaura quote a research paper recently, which demonstrated that GCMS differentiation can be fooled by certain regioisomers ?

Also, doesn't GCMS have a S/N detection threshold below which constituents of a mixture just hide in the noise?

I think there are some potent drugs that are active in the microgram or nanogram ranges.  Such drugs would likely hide in the GCMS noise.
*Dear experts, please help me out with examples here.*


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Didn't Indigoaura quote a research paper recently, which demonstrated that GCMS differentiation can be fooled by certain regioisomers ?



Yes, I did.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> Didn't Indigoaura quote a research paper recently, which demonstrated that GCMS differentiation can be fooled by certain regioisomers ?
> 
> Also, doesn't GCMS have a S/N detection threshold below which constituents of a mixture just hide in the noise?
> 
> I think there are some potent drugs that are active in the microgram or nanogram ranges.  Such drugs would likely hide in the GCMS noise.
> *Dear experts, please help me out with examples here.*


GCMS can pick apart compounds at nanogram ranges easily. I use to do environmental analysis and we would pick up very very small trace organic pollutants in the environment. As long as the equipment is set right for the level of analysis needed and a somebody with alot of experince who knows how to tell noise apart from compounds. 

Nothing is going to hide in the noise if you know what you are looking for and the equipment is up to standard. "meh" is not a case of regioisomers mdma the only plausiable thing going for this thread is that their mdma has impurities that would ruin it but these are identifiable in GCMS if somebody put in the effort.  Its not a mystery its easily solved if somebody acutally just got their shit product and had a acutal analytical chemist who gave a fuck take a look at it and put it through rigiorus testing to ID impurities and cross reference them to studies.

MDMA is MDMA if doesnt have the effects of MDMA then what you took is not pure mdma and thus should not be called mdma.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ So, your issue is semantics? Would a better title for the thread be, "What currently unidentified contaminant is interfering in the effects of some MDMA?" or "Why is some product that is clearly contaminated showing up as pure with GCMS analysis?" Would that make you feel better? 

The problem is that there are a very limited number of labs to send product to. None of them are cheap. I spend $100 every time I send in a sample (all out of my own pocket). The Energy Control information was useless. They would not even provide me with the full GCMS data which is what I thought I was paying a higher price for.

I don't think that other companies are looking for those nanogram range contaminants. I think they consider them "noise" or part of the binding/filler and they ignore them. It was also stated in one of the articles I posted that some compounds produce overlapping peaks on GCMS and are not immediately visible when MDMA is also present.



> Its not a mystery its easily solved if somebody acutally just got their shit product and had a acutal analytical chemist who gave a fuck take a look at it and put it through rigiorus testing to ID impurities and cross reference them to studies.



Do you know of any quality analytical chemists who would examine samples and provide full GCMS data back to the person who sent in the sample? Because, since this thread started, I have spent about $400 (not to mention the cost of the product) sending in samples and I still have not gotten the level of detail that we need to proceed further.


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> GCMS can pick apart compounds at nanogram ranges easily.


What if GC cannot separate a component of a mixture?  Can the subsequent MS resolve the unseparated components then ?  What if the fragments of two different molecules weigh the same?


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> MDMA is MDMA if doesnt have the effects of MDMA then what you took is not pure mdma and thus should not be called mdma.


I don't think that is strictly true because I heard of R-MDMA and S-MDMA and 23-MDMA and 34-MDMA and different salts thereof.
Do all these types of MDMA produce the same effects?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> I don't think that is strictly true because I heard of R-MDMA and S-MDMA and 23-MDMA and 34-MDMA and different salts thereof.
> Do all these types of MDMA produce the same effects?


2,3 mdma doesnt exist in the real world R and S isomers are made in equal amounts during mainstream production. You can HPLC or various things to separate components in a mixture thats the whole joy of GCMS or HPLC is that it breaks down everything in that solution and analyses it. 

Saldy indigo i dont know of any independent chemists with their own GCMS its all in goverenment or private labs here to analyse our food containments and environmental.

And i know these testing centres are just scamming people for their money with their terrible results and lack of information. It would probably take somebody doing a PHD thesis on this topic and analysing street mdma in depth to come up with a answer and the resources to properly give the topic justice.


----------



## indigoaura

Dammit, am I going to have to get a second grad degree to accurately pursue this?


----------



## indigoaura

Would this work? https://www.ebay.com/i/133037766319...MI4ZWt7rO06AIVS18NCh07uAg7EAYYBCABEgKqpfD_BwE


----------



## TripSitterNZ

it doesnt have any MS attached to it. Plus software and other things cost crazy amounts to license aswell. I wouldn't waste your money on trying to buy your own. Maybe a researcher in MAPS would be interested in taking up this study?. 

Maybe in the future with mdma becomming more legitimate in medical use some grad student project could investigate it but the laws in most countries make it difficult or a pipe dream.


----------



## indigoaura

You say don't bother buying...but why not? Or, could I rent one? Is there a way to get certified to operate GCMS without having to pursue a degree?

Not even kidding. 

MAPS does not reply to emails. I think they are very focused on legalization for therapeutic purposes, and they do not want to get bogged down with recreational issues right now.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Anybody would be able to use GCMS given a days training or two probably The software does most the work its just then reading and interpreting the results. certain libraries of compounds can cost thousands of dollars to accesses a year or more.


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> The software does most the work its just then reading and interpreting the results. certain libraries of compounds can cost thousands of dollars to accesses a year or more.


So this means the search for such analytic system should begin with a search for an available cracked software ...and then finding the hardware that is supported by this software.


----------



## androoo

This is mainly for tripsitter...I went and bought some pressed pills for a celebration for the closing of my business for the whole covid-19 lockdown... guess what? I had fun, they were nice pills (pink Porsche's)..I was silly, lots of giggles but still nothing like mdma pre 2003. There was more of a stoned feel to it, no energy at all, no happiness, no smiles and I even passed out .. it was very much like the mdma I've had a few times recently and yes, set and setting did have an effect...if I didn't have my other half with me and a smartphone, I would have just sat there, had a wank and passed out.


----------



## androoo

androoo said:


> This is mainly for tripsitter...I went and bought some pressed pills for a celebration for the closing of my business for the whole covid-19 lockdown... guess what? I had fun, they were nice pills (pink Porsche's)..I was silly, lots of giggles but still nothing like mdma pre 2003. There was more of a stoned feel to it, no energy at all, no happiness, no smiles and I even passed out .. it was very much like the mdma I've had a few times recently and yes, set and setting did have an effect...if I didn't have my other half with me and a smartphone, I would have just sat there, had a wank and passed out.





androoo said:


> This is mainly for tripsitter...I went and bought some pressed pills for a celebration for the closing of my business for the whole covid-19 lockdown... guess what? I had fun, they were nice pills (pink Porsche's)..I was silly, lots of giggles but still nothing like mdma pre 2003. There was more of a stoned feel to it, no energy at all, no happiness, no smiles and I even passed out .. it was very much like the mdma I've had a few times recently and yes, set and setting did have an effect...if I didn't have my other half with me and a smartphone, I would have just sat there, had a wank and passed out.


I'd just like to add that I'm currently taking Memantine and happy to send photos of said pills+screenshots of pills being tested (unable to upload ATM)


----------



## user666

androoo said:


> I'd just like to add that I'm currently taking Memantine


That makes you a compromised tester


----------



## androoo

user666 said:


> That makes you a compromised tester


How so? I would have thought that Memantine would be of benefit to the experience? Increase the effects of the mdma?


----------



## user666

androoo said:


> How so? I would have thought that Memantine would be of benefit to the experience? Increase the effects of the mdma?


Memantine acts as a non-competitive *antagonist* at the serotonin receptor.  
It also antagonizes glutamate and nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

androoo said:


> This is mainly for tripsitter...I went and bought some pressed pills for a celebration for the closing of my business for the whole covid-19 lockdown... guess what? I had fun, they were nice pills (pink Porsche's)..I was silly, lots of giggles but still nothing like mdma pre 2003. There was more of a stoned feel to it, no energy at all, no happiness, no smiles and I even passed out .. it was very much like the mdma I've had a few times recently and yes, set and setting did have an effect...if I didn't have my other half with me and a smartphone, I would have just sat there, had a wank and passed out.


Thats because the new pink porsches are not mdma these days. Its some mix of a cathoine speed and some other shit mixed in with them even in late 2018 the pink posrches been pressed in NZ were been pressed with mdma and meth. I did OG pink porsches in 2017 and 2018 and had me rolling so hard i almost died on two of them.


----------



## indigoaura

I just want to emphasize again, that unless there is professional analysis of the sample, the data is compromised.

I could take a pill that has 25% MDMA plus caffeine and other fillers and that pill would look fine to reagent tests, but it would not be a very good time.


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem Eager to hear the results of your reagent tests. Curious how they line up with my recent test experiment.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> @G_Chem Eager to hear the results of your reagent tests. Curious how they line up with my recent test experiment.



So only 5 samples tested so far with the freshest reagents I’ve ever seen in my 10+yrs testing various drugs with these things for myself and others.  I’ve bought more than my fair share.

I rated each sample based on both my and others experiences, with only one batch out of them all really feeling meh to me.  (G6 SoCal press).  The rest of them (8-9 total all said and done) were decent (one being just ok) to stellar.

I noticed something when comparing the best sample I had with the worst that two reagents id never used before were doing something different.

For the suspected “meh” sample the Froehde was going “very quickly to dark/black, hint of purple? later purple..”

For the “magic” sample the Froehde was going “quick flash of green to brownish black, no/little purple” the puddle stayed this color and did not eventually go purple like the other.

Another reagent, the Liebermann did the following the “meh;” “brownish/blackish.”

While with the “magic” sample; “violent, straight to black, later reddish/purplish hue.”

I noticed that another sample I’d rated really highly “magic” if you will, mimicked the first magic sample.

From there I noticed that all batches which seemed shorter acting, followed the “meh” sample in this reagent response.

Shorter acting seems to be a common complaint these days.

So of the 5 samples, I tried 4 personally.  1 felt meh, 1 felt ok but not special, and the other 2 were “magic.”

The meh sample, the just ok sample, and the one I hadn’t tried but appeared decent based on others experiences albeit shorter acting usually over in 3-4hours Max, all followed the same progressions with the reagents.  (As stated above.)

The 2 magic samples reacted the same to each other as well.


I think my problem with the bioassay portion of these experiments is that once I try a batch I feel is meh I avoid it and it usually sits in the closet.  I don’t get a true representation.  That said, I can see that my tastes in product follow a pattern in the reagents.

The one batch that I haven’t tasted, I avoided it because people told me that while it was good it was short acting.  When I roll I wanna roll 4-6hrs plus some residuals.

I’ve got 3-4 to go but need to try them first.  1 of the untested samples I have tried already and it was magic so it’ll be interesting to see if it’s following this pattern.  I’ll actually be testing another batch first time tomorrow so within a few days I’ll have 2 more reagent tests up.

Once I get the next 2 done I’ll post the full results for all the reagents just for kicks and giggles.

My previous thought of the mandelin being a possible tool has fallen short, I’m not seeing any reliable pattern.

I’ll be back...

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

can people compare their samples of meh and magic and see if taking it orally or snorter would effect their "meh" sample. I personally enjoy taking some mdmd orally then snorting points usually rolling for 8 hours + as i redose the entire night.


----------



## psy997

TripSitterNZ said:


> can people compare their samples of meh and magic and see if taking it orally or snorter would effect their "meh" sample. I personally enjoy taking some mdmd orally then snorting points usually rolling for 8 hours + as i redose the entire night.



Dude. Read the fucking thread. Seriously.

To be clear, I'm only being a dick to you because you're running a pretty high level of interference, ie. tons of comments rehashing points we've discussed numerous times already.

To answer you, ROA doesn't seem to change anything, though snorting or plugging can actually make a sample feel more Meh sometimes.


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> So only 5 samples tested so far with the freshest reagents I’ve ever seen in my 10+yrs testing various drugs with these things for myself and others.  I’ve bought more than my fair share.
> 
> I rated each sample based on both my and others experiences, with only one batch out of them all really feeling meh to me.  (G6 SoCal press).  The rest of them (8-9 total all said and done) were decent (one being just ok) to stellar.
> 
> I noticed something when comparing the best sample I had with the worst that two reagents id never used before were doing something different.
> 
> For the suspected “meh” sample the Froehde was going “very quickly to dark/black, hint of purple? later purple..”
> 
> For the “magic” sample the Froehde was going “quick flash of green to brownish black, no/little purple” the puddle stayed this color and did not eventually go purple like the other.
> 
> Another reagent, the Liebermann did the following the “meh;” “brownish/blackish.”
> 
> While with the “magic” sample; “violent, straight to black, later reddish/purplish hue.”
> 
> I noticed that another sample I’d rated really highly “magic” if you will, mimicked the first magic sample.
> 
> From there I noticed that all batches which seemed shorter acting, followed the “meh” sample in this reagent response.
> 
> Shorter acting seems to be a common complaint these days.
> 
> So of the 5 samples, I tried 4 personally.  1 felt meh, 1 felt ok but not special, and the other 2 were “magic.”
> 
> The meh sample, the just ok sample, and the one I hadn’t tried but appeared decent based on others experiences albeit shorter acting usually over in 3-4hours Max, all followed the same progressions with the reagents.  (As stated above.)
> 
> The 2 magic samples reacted the same to each other as well.
> 
> 
> I think my problem with the bioassay portion of these experiments is that once I try a batch I feel is meh I avoid it and it usually sits in the closet.  I don’t get a true representation.  That said, I can see that my tastes in product follow a pattern in the reagents.
> 
> The one batch that I haven’t tasted, I avoided it because people told me that while it was good it was short acting.  When I roll I wanna roll 4-6hrs plus some residuals.
> 
> I’ve got 3-4 to go but need to try them first.  1 of the untested samples I have tried already and it was magic so it’ll be interesting to see if it’s following this pattern.  I’ll actually be testing another batch first time tomorrow so within a few days I’ll have 2 more reagent tests up.
> 
> Once I get the next 2 done I’ll post the full results for all the reagents just for kicks and giggles.
> 
> My previous thought of the mandelin being a possible tool has fallen short, I’m not seeing any reliable pattern.
> 
> I’ll be back...
> 
> -GC


Haha, all in the name of science hey GC?   Very interesting. I only ever saw one ecstasy pill tested myself in fact. 
Exodus (the origin of of the famous Exodus Cheese" strain of weed) annual festival 1999 (illegal do, but hardcore Gypsies, police always kept a distance back then.)

They were huge 4 day parties in August. 3 mile grassy, hilly venue. Dozens of music teepees.  Crazy but chill people. Lots of love and connection.

NO TROUBLE! Gypsies ran it good! 

But the drugs- the ecstasy/MDMA pills.....wow, out of this world. And huge variety. You only had to walk a few feet to find a different press of very high quality mind-altering MDMA pills.

And sensational skunk, hash, aghghan black, Columbian weed etc.

So upon entering this grand outdoor complex at 5 p.m. on a hot sunny Saturday evening, after being sold acid on the road outside before even entering the party zone, a girl came up to me and asked if I wanted to swap a pill she had some really tasty looking white Mitsubishi pills which could be exceptional at the time in 1999.

We took with us some really clean Mercedes pills with us. I did not decline the offer and before I knew it she was efficiently testing my Mercedes pill in front of my eyes.

That was the only one I ever saw tested I believe, so no exact memory of the result but I just remember it going dark very quickly whether it was black or had noticeable purple in it I can't be sure now.

The big white Mitzi she gave me was top top notch.

What you report is very interesting I will be reading it again sometime when my head is not so wasted on kava, cannabis edibles and etizolam.  No acid today at least, but nice and dreamily medicated.


I have grown increasingly tempted lately to actually try one of my Dutch Bowser pills.  I'm thinking it should be safe enough hopefully. It would be extremely interesting to me in light of this whole topic and particular thread to see what sort of experience I would have have and to be able to report that here based on my extensive past experiences.

We will see folks. Hope you are all keeping well.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Big importers usually use Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin and Folin reagants together. Mecke is a interesting one as it can detect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethoxymethamphetamine. Never seen any acutal reports on somebody knowingly using this. But if your mdma is trash your usually getting it from trashy people so it could acutally be that.

 Next contendor is what "meh" is acutally MBDB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDB And has been found has a containment many times by police forensic analysis. Its trip report effects line up with your meh experinces aswell.








						Comparative potencies of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) analogues as inhibitors of [3H]noradrenaline and [3H]5-HT transport in mammalian cell lines
					

Illegal ‘ecstasy' tablets frequently contain 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-like compounds of unknown pharmacological activity. Since monoamine transporters are one of the primary targets of MDMA action in the brain, a number of MDMA ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## AutoTripper

psy997 said:


> To answer you, ROA doesn't seem to change anything, though snorting or plugging can actually make a sample feel more Meh sometimes.


Yeah that makes sense to me. There's no logical presumption that changing the route of delivery will make a sub par and lacking substance somehow better just stronger perhaps which in the case of substandard ecstasy I guess would only increase and highlight the lacking and dismal side of its effects.

Personally I was never a fan of snorting MDMA although combined with ketamine it could be very interesting and more enticing that way also snorting cocaine with ketamine at the same time was a totally different experience to either drug and surprisingly nice and enjoyable without being messy like ecstasy and ket.

For myself the high of snorting MDMA was always fairly short lived and came on quite intense and disruptively to my zen, level blissful mindset I would achieve whenever I took good quality MDMA or ecstasy pills and maintain this for a very long time, without peaks and troughs and periods of of confusion and kind of regret at how messed up I felt like you can with certain drugs and certain sessions when the light of day hits.


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem 

If you don't mind me asking, where did you buy the test kits from? I would like to get tests from the same supplier and check the samples I have to see if they match what you are seeing or not. Also, how noticeable is the difference in test results between the meh/magic samples? Would it be easy to tell if you were not seeing the reactions side by side?

I currently do not have Froehde  or Liebermann in my arsenal. I just have Marquis, Mandelin, Mecke, and Simon's. Honestly, they are all a bit old at this point and I may just order a full new set.


----------



## indigoaura

This is interesting...

Look at the comment here: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8267

Tests as MDMA, but sender suspects it is "a good fake that pass most reagent tests." Sounds familiar.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> @G_Chem
> 
> If you don't mind me asking, where did you buy the test kits from? I would like to get tests from the same supplier and check the samples I have to see if they match what you are seeing or not. Also, how noticeable is the difference in test results between the meh/magic samples? Would it be easy to tell if you were not seeing the reactions side by side?
> 
> I currently do not have Froehde  or Liebermann in my arsenal. I just have Marquis, Mandelin, Mecke, and Simon's. Honestly, they are all a bit old at this point and I may just order a full new set.



Bunk Police, their full most complete reagent set.  I’ve purchased a few times from DanceSafe too but unfortunately have gotten older than I care for reagents from them in the past.

I do believe anyone could discern these two separate reactions apart.  It seems too that they both occur simultaneously so may be a better indicator if we can continue to see this pattern with more testing.

Unlike most reagent reactions though it seems these color differences occur over time.

Once I get these next two tests done (likely tomorrow, gonna roll in a few hours hehe) I’ll have a better idea if this is an avenue worth further exploration.

Also that picture definitely has the more blocky looking crystals, that’s what meh seems to look like based on my understanding.

Get back to more later  Prepping for a post cancer (hopefully) quarantine roll sesh with my girl.

-GC


----------



## Simosom

@TripSitterNZ 
"8 hours + as i redose the entire night."
I believe you had a meh.


----------



## indigoaura

> Prepping for a post cancer (hopefully) quarantine roll sesh with my girl.



Great minds think alike. I will be participating in my own quarantine roll within the very near future. @G_Chem, have an amazing time!


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Simosom said:


> @TripSitterNZ
> "8 hours + as i redose the entire night."
> I believe you had a meh.


normal mdma duration is 4-6 hours even shorter im snorting points instead of orally. The longest roll i ever had was 7 pm til 4 am the next day as i just took more as it faded. I always redose mdma as the peak fades to bring peak back. I would also do it weekly so my tolerance was off the charts i would use upwards of 300 mg on those nights.


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem These Bunk Police kits look nice. They have some more complex items as well. I will order the full kit and post my results for comparison.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> Get back to more later  Prepping for a post cancer (hopefully) quarantine roll sesh with my girl.



All the best mate!

I've been thinking that the more meh things have been getting, the more that all reagents (apart from Simon's) turn straight to black.  I see no subtlety at all.  I'm not confident in knowing what to expect, but it has been nagging me.  For example, my current reagents are from reagent-test.uk  chart and for marquis, liebermann, froehde, mandelin and mecke everything goes black with no purple, brown, green etc...  But still, if you have to pick just one substance from the list, you'd still have to pick mdma.


----------



## sekio

To all the amateur analytical toxicologists out there, how about considering running some TLC plates before staining with your Marquis/Mecke/etc?

SWGDRUG has a handy monogram detailing a bunch of testing methods for MDMA. http://www.swgdrug.org/Monographs/3,4-METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINE.pdf

If anything it would give the ability to seperate out the MDMA from the impurities and provide a more accurate ID (as the individual 'spots' will be seperate compounds rather than a mixture).

Also, in the interest of reproducibility, I would be weighing out equal-mass samples and using a fixed volumetric pipette to deliver the color-change reagent... I suspect that dilution will effect the intensity of the colot reaction too.


----------



## user666

sekio said:


> To all the amateur analytical toxicologists out there, how about considering running some TLC plates before staining with your Marquis/Mecke/etc?


Hasn't ThreePointCircle done this already?
AFAIR he could separate the different components of the mixture but it was not easy since he had to get different solvents and UV filters and light.
Didn't sth weird happen when he tested the spots on the TLC plate with the reagent ?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Hasn't ThreePointCircle done this already?


I gave it a go but wasn't very successful.  If the mdma spot moved at all it tended to smear, and there was a hint of something else but not clear.  I assume sample prep, system choice and visualisation methods were all factors but I'm a beginner with this stuff so kinda just guessing.  Willing to give it another go


----------



## sekio

what sort of solvent system did you use?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

sekio said:


> what sort of solvent system did you use?



System 1 - Ethyl acetate : Methanol : Water : Ammonia as 95 : 3.5 : 1.5 : 0.75
System 2 - Acetone : Ammonia as 100 : 0.5

Got them from some paper or other.  Haven't got it to hand but can dig out.


----------



## G_Chem

sekio said:


> To all the amateur analytical toxicologists out there, how about considering running some TLC plates before staining with your Marquis/Mecke/etc?
> 
> SWGDRUG has a handy monogram detailing a bunch of testing methods for MDMA. http://www.swgdrug.org/Monographs/3,4-METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINE.pdf
> 
> If anything it would give the ability to seperate out the MDMA from the impurities and provide a more accurate ID (as the individual 'spots' will be seperate compounds rather than a mixture).
> 
> Also, in the interest of reproducibility, I would be weighing out equal-mass samples and using a fixed volumetric pipette to deliver the color-change reagent... I suspect that dilution will effect the intensity of the colot reaction too.



We can give that TLC a try again, as user666 said we did try earlier.  The equal mass idea is a good one, next time will be done with crushed weighed samples.  That said, that really only effects the speed and overall amount of color in the reagent reaction but nevertheless...

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

And sekio I suggest maybe actually reading this thread now that your in here trying to give advice.

-GC


----------



## psy997

Let's not be too condescending. I, for one, appreciate Sekio's helpfulness despite disbelief and find his manner of engagement to be a model for how I'd hope those that feel Meh is not real to engage.

EDIT: sounds like a real word salad there, but maybe I'm just buzzed.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> We can give that TLC a try again,


Perhaps a chemistry expert like @Vector can help us prevent that pesky smearing which ThreePointCircle has described.
Also, most of these compounds are visible on the TLC plate only in UV-c, so an ultraviolet lamp and optical filters are required to get a good contrast.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Perhaps a chemistry expert like @Vector can help us prevent that pesky smearing which ThreePointCircle has described.
> Also, most of these compounds are visible on the TLC plate only in UV-c, so an ultraviolet lamp and optical filters are required to get a good contrast.


Possibly too much sample, or other sample prep issue for the smearing?  I used UV 254 (made a nice box so only my camera was exposed).

In general it was difficult to shift the mdma spot.  I confirmed it contained mdma, or at least mdma like, with reagent tests.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Possibly too much sample, or other sample prep issue for the smearing?  I used UV 254 (made a nice box so only my camera was exposed).


Take a look at this UV-c emitter.





						CUD5GF1B SETi/Seoul Viosys | Optoelectronics | DigiKey
					

Order today, ships today. CUD5GF1B – Ultraviolet (UV) Emitter 255nm 7.5V 200mA 125° 1414 (3535 Metric) from SETi/Seoul Viosys. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




					www.digikey.com
				



it is relatively expensive but it does NOT require a UV filter !


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Take a look at this UV-c emitter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CUD5GF1B SETi/Seoul Viosys | Optoelectronics | DigiKey
> 
> 
> Order today, ships today. CUD5GF1B – Ultraviolet (UV) Emitter 255nm 7.5V 200mA 125° 1414 (3535 Metric) from SETi/Seoul Viosys. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.digikey.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it is relatively expensive but it does NOT require a UV filter !


Cheers but I got my uv working ok.  Plus that's an led part, needs driving and surface mount soldering, etc...


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Cheers but I got my uv working ok.  Plus that's an led part, needs driving and surface mount soldering, etc...


Is your UV source the correct wavelength and does it have the visible wavelengths all filtered out?
I had others in mind when writing this, too. Driving this UV-c LED is trivial.  I have the skills to design and draw a schematic if needed.

Anyway, the UV reflected from the TLC plate needs to be *filtered ou*t too, in order to protect your eyes or avoid the saturation of the CCD/CMOS sensor in a camera, which blurs the image.
Fortunately this is easy to do with common plastics. See their transmittance curves below:








						Transmission Curves of Optics Materials - GS Plastic Optics
					

Graphical information about the transmission characteristics of materials used by GS Plastic Optics in injection molded polymer optics manufacturing.




					www.gsoptics.com
				




Thicker plastic sheets are better at cutting out the UV, of course


----------



## G_Chem

psy997 said:


> Let's not be too condescending. I, for one, appreciate Sekio's helpfulness despite disbelief and find his manner of engagement to be a model for how I'd hope those that feel Meh is not real to engage.
> 
> EDIT: sounds like a real word salad there, but maybe I'm just buzzed.



Sekio has been condescending on plenty of occasions, and it’s an actual suggestion since he seems to have joined the discussion so we aren’t constantly repeating ourselves.  But I’ll be good and refrain from here out 

Btw last night was amazing, and today surprisingly productive.  Happy to be alive.

-GC


----------



## draculic acid69

TripSitterNZ said:


> Big importers usually use Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin and Folin reagants together. Mecke is a interesting one as it can detect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethoxymethamphetamine. Never seen any acutal reports on somebody knowingly using this. But if your mdma is trash your usually getting it from trashy people so it could acutally be that.
> 
> Next contendor is what "meh" is acutally MBDB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBDB And has been found has a containment many times by police forensic analysis. Its trip report effects line up with your meh experinces aswell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comparative potencies of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) analogues as inhibitors of [3H]noradrenaline and [3H]5-HT transport in mammalian cell lines
> 
> 
> Illegal ‘ecstasy' tablets frequently contain 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-like compounds of unknown pharmacological activity. Since monoamine transporters are one of the primary targets of MDMA action in the brain, a number of MDMA ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




There's no way in hell anyone is having meh experiences from mbdb.ive had plenty of it and everyone else I know
who had it loved it.even half a 140mg pill was enough for non regular users to have a good night on.and it affects your vision and eyes much more than regular mdma.being intoxicated on it is much more teeth chattery,dilated pupils,eyes rolling back in your head like than normal mdma.no way meh is mbdb.and mbdb is far superior to mdma.after having mbdb mdma is meh by comparison.mdma is like shitty powdered amphetamine and mbdb is like the super pure clean ice.
That's how different they are.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Is your UV source the correct wavelength and does it have the visible wavelengths all filtered out?
> I had others in mind when writing this, too. Driving this UV-c LED is trivial.  I have the skills to design and draw a schematic if needed.


Yes correct wavelength, and no to the visible filtering although the amount of visible light is low.  The uv fluorescence is clear so I haven't really felt the need to filter.  But I take the point that it would improve the situation.  I can do the circuitry as well but since I have a uv source its a low priority.  I really don't think the uv visualisation is the problem.  The spot(s) aren't shifting in the system, and/or aren't visible with the uv method.



user666 said:


> Anyway, the UV reflected from the TLC plate needs to be *filtered ou*t too, in order to protect your eyes or avoid the saturation of the CCD/CMOS sensor in a camera, which blurs the image.
> Fortunately this is easy to do with common plastics. See their transmittance curves below:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Transmission Curves of Optics Materials - GS Plastic Optics
> 
> 
> Graphical information about the transmission characteristics of materials used by GS Plastic Optics in injection molded polymer optics manufacturing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gsoptics.com



Thanks, I'll try with some plastic in front of the camera to see if it makes much of a difference, but didn't notice any saturation problems.  The way I have it set up, only the camera is exposed to UV so my eyes are safe.


----------



## indigoaura

I am not going to go into it in detail here, because there is another thread devoted to it. But I am currently using BPC-157 to regenerate/repair as recommended by @Swim15. This is in the interest of seeing if tolerance/damage/loss of magic etc. is an issue with me. Afterwards, I will be using the same product from NYE, and will start with the same dosage to see if there is any difference post BPC-157.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> I can do the circuitry as well but since I have a uv source its a low priority.


Yes, I agree it is a low priority because you already have a UV source but for people that start from scratch it might be a good option.



ThreePointCircle said:


> The spot(s) aren't shifting in the system, and/or aren't visible with the uv method.


Yes, that is your major problem.  It think someone who has a lot of experience with TLC should help you with the solvent system, dosing, temperature, timing, etc...


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> There's no way in hell anyone is having meh experiences from mbdb.ive had plenty of it and everyone else I know
> who had it loved it.even half a 140mg pill was enough for non regular users to have a good night on.and it affects your vision and eyes much more than regular mdma.being intoxicated on it is much more teeth chattery,dilated pupils,eyes rolling back in your head like than normal mdma.no way meh is mbdb.and mbdb is far superior to mdma.after having mbdb mdma is meh by comparison.mdma is like shitty powdered amphetamine and mbdb is like the super pure clean ice.
> That's how different they are.



Your the first person I’ve heard to say this.  While I agree MBDB isn’t “meh” it also has never been described as better than MDMA either.

-GC


----------



## sekio

Whenever I used TLC I found UV-B was best, no need for UV-C, you view the compound spots by the fact they quench the fluorescence (dark spots on glowing background) But why are people bothering with UV light for TLC plates? You do know, before people had these fancy fluorescent-treated TLC silicas, they used these things called stains? 

Phosphomolybdate, ninhydrin, vanillin/sulfuric, iodine vapor, Maruis, Mecke, Mandelin, etc etc. Just give the plate a fine misting and gently heat it to develop. You get different color spots for different stains, some are selective for certain compounds over others (ninhydrin for amines, the 3 M stains etc), others are quite all-purpose (iodine, phosphomolybdate).

If you find your spots are not moving well or are smeared together, you are likely overloading the TLC silica, reduce your concentration of sample. And make sure you have good technique for 'spotting' the silica with dilute sample - too large a blob will result in smearing too.

SWGDRUG reference on TLC systems: http://www.swgdrug.org/Documents/TLC Systems.pdf - I note that they use alkaline-methanol washed plates and use simple methanol as solvent. Acidified permanganate as a spray/developer. Of course, other methods work too. Some 'method development' may be needed to get a seperation you are happy with.


----------



## user666

sekio said:


> Whenever I used TLC I found UV-B was best, no need for UV-C, ...


What if the TLC plate is rated at 254nm by its manufacturer  ?



user666 said:


> But why are people bothering with UV light for TLC plates? You do know, before people had these fancy fluorescent-treated TLC silicas, they used these things called stains?


I think that is because such stains will interfere with the colorimetric reagents (Froehde , Marquis, Mandelin, etc...) that will be applied to these spots later.


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Your the first person I’ve heard to say this.  While I agree MBDB isn’t “meh” it also has never been described as better than MDMA either.
> 
> -GC


Yes it has.a lot of ppl preferred it to the normal mdma.


----------



## indigoaura

draculic acid69 said:


> Yes it has.a lot of ppl preferred it to the normal mdma.



But what is "normal" MDMA to those people?


----------



## vecktor

user666 said:


> What if the TLC plate is rated at 254nm by its manufacturer  ?
> 
> 
> I think that is because such stains will interfere with the colorimetric reagents (Froehde , Marquis, Mandelin, etc...) that will be applied to these spots later.



The reality is most UV lamps are usually either long or short wavelength, and that is dictated by the glass the tube is made of but it doesn't abruptly cut off usually and the tubes are almost always just mercury which has emission lines a long way into UVC. UVB lamps just produce less UVC. 254nm is a mercury line and it is always produced in mercury discharge. 

likewise 254nm fluor is not just 254nm it can be excited by longer wavelengths and short too.

spray stains are somewhat tricky because finely divided molybdate or acidified DMAB-HCl or CAN mist is rather hazardous, Pot permang as a mist is bad news too. Molybdic acid is good because it is low toxicity and general.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> But what is "normal" MDMA to those people?



I've never heard of this MBDB, but I'd love to see how it compares to 'MehDMA'.


----------



## G_Chem

MBDB, also known as Eden, was most popularly used in the 90’s alongside MDEA, MDA and of course MDMA.  It was probably the rarest of the 4 but was around during that time.

Nichols talked about how MBDB might be the best for therapy since it induces the least amount of “high” which is one reason I question that statement.  It’s supposed to be an empathogen with much less euphoria.

FUBAR if you ate plenty of ecstasy in the 90’s, you probably are more likely than any of us to have ever tried it.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Here’s a few Erowid reports to get an idea...






						MBDB - Erowid Exp - 'Insufflated Eden'
					

An Experience with MBDB. 'Insufflated Eden' by bluestemz



					erowid.org
				









						MBDB - Erowid Exp - 'Not a Substitute for MDMA'
					

An Experience with MBDB. 'Not a Substitute for MDMA' by Jackburbee



					erowid.org
				









						MBDB - Erowid Exp - 'A Pleasant MBDB Adventure'
					

An Experience with MBDB. 'A Pleasant MBDB Adventure' by Mbdb



					erowid.org
				




-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> FUBAR if you ate plenty of ecstasy in the 90’s, you probably are more likely than any of us to have ever tried it.
> 
> -GC



Well if thats the case, then there's no way it can explain the 'meh', cos it was all good shit back then...


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> But what is "normal" MDMA to those people?


100mg mdma tablets is what was the "normal" thing was.week after week it was this and then every couple of months the manotiny of the normal was interrupted by the awesome trippy batches of mbdb then it was back to the normal.


----------



## sekio

> I think that is because such stains will interfere with the colorimetric reagents (Froehde , Marquis, Mandelin, etc...) that will be applied to these spots later.



The colorimetric reagents ARE the stains, silly. And TLC plates are cheap, cheap, cheap. Run multiple plates, or multiple lanes, and either cut the plate or mask portions of it off, and you can end up with a plate with the same seperation visualized several ways. Some stains, notably iodine vapor, are temporary.

If you get good enough at resolving compounds on TLC you can actually use it as a sample preparation technique too. Run a big plate with either multiple 'spots' or a 'band' of compound laid across the baseline, then without staining it (maybe use a second stained plate for reference), cut the band/spots with your desired compound in it out of the plate (or scrape the silica off the backing with a spatula or flathead screwdriver). A quick solvent extraction and you are left with a few milligrams of quite pure compound, suitable for GCMS or NMR. I've used this quite succesfully to help identify impurities that are too dilute to get a good analysis of.



> What if the TLC plate is rated at 254nm by its manufacturer ?



It may depend on the manufacturer, but the ones I used, the chromophore had a broad enough absorbtion band that it would still glow under longer wave UV. I used a dual-lamp UVA/UVB light and found the UVB worked just fine. But not UV-A, as I recall.

Most of the time I didn't bother with the UV at all. I was working with mostly terpenoids and tended to prefer phosphomolybdate - it develops lovely blue spots.
Ninhidrin would be ideal for drug analysis as it will spot bright pink in the presence of amines. And iodine vapor is a classic that never fails.



> spray stains are somewhat tricky because finely divided molybdate or acidified DMAB-HCl or CAN mist is rather hazardous, Pot permang as a mist is bad news too. Molybdic acid is good because it is low toxicity and general.



I usually did the spraying in a fume hood, wearing safety glasses, (probably better to use goggles) holding my breath, and aimed away from anyone or anything that could get unwittingly colorized. Keep em fairly dilute and put them in a cheap polypropylene mister bottle. I don't think I would want to get phosphomolybdic acid in my eyes, toxic or not.

I wonder if you could use a dip-bath to deliver the stain without messing up the TLC. Or maybe a very soft bristled brush.


----------



## G_Chem

AutoTripper said:


> Haha, all in the name of science hey GC?   Very interesting. I only ever saw one ecstasy pill tested myself in fact.
> Exodus (the origin of of the famous Exodus Cheese" strain of weed) annual festival 1999 (illegal do, but hardcore Gypsies, police always kept a distance back then.)
> 
> They were huge 4 day parties in August. 3 mile grassy, hilly venue. Dozens of music teepees.  Crazy but chill people. Lots of love and connection.
> 
> NO TROUBLE! Gypsies ran it good!
> 
> But the drugs- the ecstasy/MDMA pills.....wow, out of this world. And huge variety. You only had to walk a few feet to find a different press of very high quality mind-altering MDMA pills.
> 
> And sensational skunk, hash, aghghan black, Columbian weed etc.
> 
> So upon entering this grand outdoor complex at 5 p.m. on a hot sunny Saturday evening, after being sold acid on the road outside before even entering the party zone, a girl came up to me and asked if I wanted to swap a pill she had some really tasty looking white Mitsubishi pills which could be exceptional at the time in 1999.
> 
> We took with us some really clean Mercedes pills with us. I did not decline the offer and before I knew it she was efficiently testing my Mercedes pill in front of my eyes.
> 
> That was the only one I ever saw tested I believe, so no exact memory of the result but I just remember it going dark very quickly whether it was black or had noticeable purple in it I can't be sure now.
> 
> The big white Mitzi she gave me was top top notch.
> 
> What you report is very interesting I will be reading it again sometime when my head is not so wasted on kava, cannabis edibles and etizolam.  No acid today at least, but nice and dreamily medicated.
> 
> 
> I have grown increasingly tempted lately to actually try one of my Dutch Bowser pills.  I'm thinking it should be safe enough hopefully. It would be extremely interesting to me in light of this whole topic and particular thread to see what sort of experience I would have have and to be able to report that here based on my extensive past experiences.
> 
> We will see folks. Hope you are all keeping well.



Hey man sorry I missed this post but hope your doing well too 

That event sounds lush, I imagine it as this magical landscape of lovely weirdos.  I can’t wait til all this is over and the festival season is here..  Although I have a feeling Covid will put a damper on things for the rest of the year...

-GC


----------



## Gaffy

Gaffy said:


> So I was wondering, just how much difference is there between 3,4 MD and 4,5 MD. As you can see in the picture, the double carbon bond position differes from one to another's, maybe that's what's wrong with today's MDMA?


Input? Has already been discussed?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Gaffy said:


> Input? Has already been discussed?


----------



## Limey

What I find strange is that I only get mild effects from mdma these days but other friends (usually younger who’ve never had saffrole synthesized mdma) will roll balls on the same batch. 
I wonder if having previously had saffrole synthesized mdma somewhat changes your brain chemistry so that when you take Pmk synthesized mdma your brain somehow doesn’t recognize the molecule ? I was never a regular user of mdma and I’m not on any anti depressants either.


----------



## relex_author

Whats wrong with it? It ain't the same stuff really - aint made with Safrole oil. But its ok again!


----------



## indigoaura

@Gaffy I do not recall discussing 4-5 MDMA. Maybe one of the other long time contributors to the thread recalls better than me. I know we talked about 2-3 MDMA vs. 3-4 MDMA, and there were some studies that talked about 2-3 MDMA. I do not recall considering 4-5. 

Any idea whether it would be possible to produce 4-5 MDMA instead of 3-4 MDMA through common synth routes?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> @Gaffy I do not recall discussing 4-5 MDMA. Maybe one of the other long time contributors to the thread recalls better than me. I know we talked about 2-3 MDMA vs. 3-4 MDMA, and there were some studies that talked about 2-3 MDMA. I do not recall considering 4-5.
> 
> Any idea whether it would be possible to produce 4-5 MDMA instead of 3-4 MDMA through common synth routes?


no all starting material is a 3,4 chemical its impossible for it to go to 4,5 or 2,3.


----------



## Gaffy

I learned on N&PD that 4,5 and 3,4 are basically the same as it is an aromatic ring (benzene) so it doesn't change anything as the 5 and the 3 are both 2 position away from the ethylalphamethmethylamine chain and the 4 position doesn't move. 2,3 = 5,6 also, as long as there aren't other substitutions on the aromatic ring.


----------



## SunriseChampion

G_Chem said:


> I can’t wait til all this is over and the festival season is here..  Although I have a feeling Covid will put a damper on things for the rest of the year...





I hope not. I was so stoked. One of our local festivals here got extended by a day this year. I have the supplies, I was so ready. The first one I was supposed to go to is supposed to be in late July so that will be the test, I guess.

Let's hope for the best!


----------



## draculic acid69

Limey said:


> What I find strange is that I only get mild effects from mdma these days but other friends (usually younger who’ve never had saffrole synthesized mdma) will roll balls on the same batch.
> I wonder if having previously had saffrole synthesized mdma somewhat changes your brain chemistry so that when you take Pmk synthesized mdma your brain somehow doesn’t recognize the molecule ? I was never a regular user of mdma and I’m not on any anti depressants either.


Nope.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @Gaffy I do not recall discussing 4-5 MDMA. Maybe one of the other long time contributors to the thread recalls better than me. I know we talked about 2-3 MDMA vs. 3-4 MDMA, and there were some studies that talked about 2-3 MDMA. I do not recall considering 4-5.
> 
> Any idea whether it would be possible to produce 4-5 MDMA instead of 3-4 MDMA through common synth routes?


3,4mdma would be the same as 4,5mdma.2,3 is the only one that would be different I think.its like saying 2cloroutane and 3clorobutane would be different


----------



## draculic acid69

Gaffy said:


> I learned on N&PD that 4,5 and 3,4 are basically the same as it is an aromatic ring (benzene) so it doesn't change anything as the 5 and the 3 are both 2 position away from the ethylalphamethmethylamine chain and the 4 position doesn't move. 2,3 = 5,6 also, as long as there aren't other substitutions on the aromatic ring.


Exactly correct


----------



## draculic acid69

Ok ppl just saw 34mdbenzylamine for sale on a rather large list of chemical companies product lists.add isopropyl bromide and u get the 3,4md isopropylbenzylamine which is the md equivalent to the n-iso being used to cut meth.meth cut with this n-iso stuff makes u sleepy a few hrs later and generally dulls and blunts the buzz of meth.im wondering if 3,4md n-iso is a proponent of mehmdma if it has the same effect as the non MD equivalent it would explain why meh is a thing.same m.w. same number of carbons,has an ether,a benzene ring and a 3carbon side chain.whether or not this will or won't be detected as mdma by a gcms I don't know.ill leave that up to the more analysis skilled of us but 3,4mdisopropylbenzylamine is to be added to the list of possibilities.


----------



## sekio

> whether or not this will or won't be detected as mdma by a gcms I don't know



The mass spectra of N-isopropylbenzylamine and methamphetamine are quite different, and would be expected to have differing retrntion times.

Compare the NIST spectra for N-iso versus methamphetamine.

*NSFW*: 













They have very different fragmentation patterns: methamphetamine lacks the molecular ion (no peak at 149 amu) and has a strong peak at 58 amu (N-methylethylamine radical)... the 91 amu toluene radical is also much stronger in the N-iso spectrum. So I have no doubt a MS could identify N-iso accurately.


----------



## draculic acid69

Can we absolutely trust the gcms done so far?


----------



## sekio

A better question would be, why _shouldn't_ we trust the GCMS analyses? N-iso would have a different retention time* & different mass spectrum - you couldn't get any more definitive than that.

_* Kovats retention index of meth = 1161, N-iso = 1149, source:  NIST_

The only conceivable "better" test than a GCMS would be a LCMS, in the case that the impurity is non-volatile or thermally degraded/destroyed (both unlikely, and could be fixed by derivatization agents to allow GC)

From a Joe Rogan Experience podcast I just heard:
[2:21:50] Hamilton Morris: You know, people will always come up to me and say "What's the deal with MDMA? It used to be like _this_, and now it's like _
this_. What accounts for that?" It's like, well, don't underestimate your own changes over time. When I was 21 I could drink alcohol - not that I did very often, but I could - and not want to kill myself the next day. Now, If I try to drink more than three drinks I'm going to feel _horrible_ the next day. Like, emotionally ruined. And that's me, not alcohol.


----------



## indigoaura

No one discounts the changes that go along with aging. However, that same person who can only handle three drinks without a hangover still gets drunk. The alcohol still produces the alcohol effect, the body just reacts differently. Easy enough to explain that through vitamin deficiencies that get worse and worse with years of drinking. I bet if Joe Rogan suddenly did not get drunk at all, he may wonder what was up with the alcohol.


----------



## G_Chem

sekio said:


> A better question would be, why _shouldn't_ we trust the GCMS analyses? N-iso would have a different retention time* & different mass spectrum - you couldn't get any more definitive than that.
> 
> _* Kovats retention index of meth = 1161, N-iso = 1149, source:  NIST_
> 
> The only conceivable "better" test than a GCMS would be a LCMS, in the case that the impurity is non-volatile or thermally degraded/destroyed (both unlikely, and could be fixed by derivatization agents to allow GC)
> 
> From a Joe Rogan Experience podcast I just heard:
> [2:21:50] Hamilton Morris: You know, people will always come up to me and say "What's the deal with MDMA? It used to be like _this_, and now it's like
> _this_. What accounts for that?" It's like, well, don't underestimate your own changes over time. When I was 21 I could drink alcohol - not that I did very often, but I could - and not want to kill myself the next day. Now, If I try to drink more than three drinks I'm going to feel _horrible_ the next day. Like, emotionally ruined. And that's me, not alcohol.



So because Hamilton (not really the expert he’s painted as but..) can’t drink alcohol anymore that instantly applies to a substance that’s about the complete opposite of it in every way?..  I’ve heard this quote many times and it’s a moronic one at that.

Alcohol is a dirty toxic drug that harms many organs in the body, it’s structure closely resembles many other substances that are known poisons.

MDMA, a much more complex molecule, is selectively neurotoxic to serotonin only and only when taken in larger doses.

I can’t see how much, if any comparisons can be made of the two.

-GC


----------



## vecktor

sekio said:


> A better question would be, why _shouldn't_ we trust the GCMS analyses? N-iso would have a different retention time* & different mass spectrum - you couldn't get any more definitive than that.
> 
> _* Kovats retention index of meth = 1161, N-iso = 1149, source:  NIST_
> 
> The only conceivable "better" test than a GCMS would be a LCMS, in the case that the impurity is non-volatile or thermally degraded/destroyed (both unlikely, and could be fixed by derivatization agents to allow GC)
> 
> From a Joe Rogan Experience podcast I just heard:
> [2:21:50] Hamilton Morris: You know, people will always come up to me and say "What's the deal with MDMA? It used to be like _this_, and now it's like
> _this_. What accounts for that?" It's like, well, don't underestimate your own changes over time. When I was 21 I could drink alcohol - not that I did very often, but I could - and not want to kill myself the next day. Now, If I try to drink more than three drinks I'm going to feel _horrible_ the next day. Like, emotionally ruined. And that's me, not alcohol.



People are getting confused with GCMS that is then processed  to identify peaks using a spectral library to interpret the peaks and GCMS analysed by a human who actually knows what they are doing. The data is in the TIC but the library works on the dot product of the reference spectrum and the integrated peak spectrum at maximum value. The testing labs fire  reference MDMA through then the unknown sample and then say the unknown contains MDMA and that is pretty much the end of it unless the library matches one of the other peaks and someone can be bothered to add that to the report.
GCMS with ultra inert is pretty damn good even for active compounds, whether derivitized or not.

LCMS has poor chromatographic separation compared to GCMS especially for small molecules, add in its other quirks, matrix effects including ion suppresion, detergent contamination, solvent reactions, then soft inconsistant ionisation, insuficient fragmentation, extreme variation in fragmentation and signal due to analyser pressure. No LCMS libraries. LCMS is easy to break it with unknown quality or dirty samples, just ask anyone who looks after walk up machines in pharma.

Like all tools GCMS and LCMS have their uses. A hammer for a nail, a spanner for a nut etc

Morris has gone far,  so did  Krystle Cole from the silo.


----------



## sekio

> So because Hamilton (not really the expert he’s painted as but..) can’t drink alcohol anymore that instantly applies to a substance that’s about the complete opposite of it in every way?.. I’ve heard this quote many times and it’s a moronic one at that.



You're missing the point: in a more concise manner it could be stated as "Set and setting should _never_ be totally discounted". (As an aside, Hamilton comes across as a knowledgeable individual who strives to remain logical, evidence-based, and non-"magical" -at least to my eyes. I don't get why people dislike the content he produces.)




> The alcohol still produces the alcohol effect, the body just reacts differently.



So why can't we have MDMA produce the MDMA effect reliably (as it should), but people's body/mind reacting differently?



> LCMS has poor chromatographic separation compared to GCMS especially for small molecules, add in its other quirks, matrix effects including ion suppresion, detergent contamination, solvent reactions, then soft inconsistant ionisation, insuficient fragmentation, extreme variation in fragmentation and signal due to analyser pressure. No LCMS libraries. LCMS is easy to break it with unknown quality or dirty samples, just ask anyone who looks after walk up machines in pharma.


Thanks for the info byte. I have never personally worked with a HPLC. They do seem awfully finicky compared to the GC.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> So because Hamilton (not really the expert he’s painted as but..) can’t drink alcohol anymore that instantly applies to a substance that’s about the complete opposite of it in every way?..  I’ve heard this quote many times and it’s a moronic one at that.
> 
> Alcohol is a dirty toxic drug that harms many organs in the body, it’s structure closely resembles many other substances that are known poisons.
> 
> MDMA, a much more complex molecule, is selectively neurotoxic to serotonin only and only when taken in larger doses.
> 
> I can’t see how much, if any comparisons can be made of the two.
> 
> -GC



So how does Hamilton explain the fact that I, as his senior by a decade or two, could drink the cunt under the table and still get up for work the next morning fresh as a daisy..?


----------



## sekio

Interpersonal variance in experiences, genetics, and the particular chemistry of your body. Everyone ain't identical.


----------



## G_Chem

sekio said:


> You're missing the point: in a more concise manner it could be stated as "Set and setting should _never_ be totally discounted". (As an aside, Hamilton comes across as a knowledgeable individual who strives to remain logical, evidence-based, and non-"magical" -at least to my eyes. I don't get why people dislike the content he produces.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So why can't we have MDMA produce the MDMA effect reliably (as it should), but people's body/mind reacting differently?
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info byte. I have never personally worked with a HPLC. They do seem awfully finicky compared to the GC.



Have you seen his Sapo Documentary?.. Yea they eventually sculpted him into someone worth watching (or did he take enough psychedelics to get over himself?).  Either way I’ll admit he’s much better now that he’s older but that Sapo Doc really drove me crazy, his utter disrespect for the natives that watched over him was sickening and just makes me cringe that he is our “representative.”

Maybe he did trip enough to get around that person he used to be.  I’ll admit his Vice show is fun to watch and his willingness to put himself out there and trip on TV with all the barriers down is respectable.

Idk I just feel so many people could do it better than him.  Enough about Hamilton..

Also I don’t understand how set and setting can be so strong as to produce reliable results time and time again.  I’ve inadvertently played with placebo on myself, it only works for so long.

My mother once gave me pills which she thought (and in my trust I thought) were Ambien.  First night I took them I had about 90% normal effects, full placebo.  Second night maybe 30-40%.  I was surprised by the sudden increase in tolerance but not enough to warrant further investigation.  Third night I barely felt it, upon searching up the pills I realized they weren’t Ambien at all.

In my opinion people feel the true nature of a drug eventually, on one experience I can understand it but when people get the same effect off the same batch consistently I tend to believe them.

And I should remind people I rarely (if ever, I’m willing to accept maybe I’ve had placebo/set/setting issues here as well) come across this meh product.  I think I have a few times but generally once I try it I don’t use it again.  

All MDMA I take is “magic” and I’m 15 or so years in, if I was gonna lose the magic I’d assume I’d done so by now.

The biggest reason I believe ya’ll on this is that I know people who’ve lost the magic.  My brother in particular.  He abused it like no one I’ve seen, years of full weekend use, UK style.  While he admits it’s not the same I notice he does still get the social and energy sides as do others who’ve burntvout.

Generally people that lose the magic have shorter experiences, less of that overwhelming love and gushy feeling.  They aren’t lethargic like some of the shit today will do, they don’t get brutally nasty comedowns, they still seem to be enjoying it.  Their pupils are dilated.  Etc.

-GC


----------



## SunriseChampion

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> So how does Hamilton explain the fact that I, as his senior by a decade or two, could drink the cunt under the table and still get up for work the next morning fresh as a daisy..?



Alcoholism, mate.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

One can still recognise quality even if one is no longer particularly impressed by it through prolonged use.

With 'meh' there is a distinct lack of quality...


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Imagine your panning for gold in them thar hills and you hit a particularly rich vein. The first few times are amazing, you're ecstatic beyond belief. But as time goes on it becomes the norm. The novelty wears off, but you still know you're getting gold.

MehDMA is like finding iron pyrite...


----------



## draculic acid69

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> So how does Hamilton explain the fact that I, as his senior by a decade or two, could drink the cunt under the table and still get up for work the next morning fresh as a daisy..?


Some ppl just get to the point where alcohol becomes unenjoyable.i also won't touch the shit.join two of them together back to back (1,4bdo) and I'll drink that.


----------



## user666

Finally, I was able to buy a good product that dilates eyes, locks the jaw is energetic and lovey at 80mg for 5h.  The product is locally made from piperonal and looks like white sugar.  The Marquis reagent goes purple to black in 2sec.
I still have the Meh stuff from DW.  It goes straight to black with Marquis is sleepy and does not widen the pupils.


----------



## sekio

OK, but doesn't the piperonal synthesis proceed via MDP2NP (Henry reaction with nitroethane) which is then either reduced to MDA & methylated,  or oxidised in a Nef reaction to MDP2P and then reacted with methylamine and a reducing agent (Al, NaBH4, NaCNBH3, LiAlH4, catalytic hydrogenation, etc)? Do you know which specific route was used? I personally don;t think it matters, but the discussion would benefit from detailed infor.


----------



## user666

I do not know the cook personally, but I can ask a guy who knows a guy....


----------



## thegreenhand

Just gonna put my .02$ in here, and I’ll note that I’m too young to have been around in the “glory days” of MDMA. That said an interesting psychological effect I’ve noticed is what I call the “chestnut torte effect”

Every Christmas my family has a nice big feast and we always have homemade chestnut torte for dessert. Now the recipe for this torte was only ever stored in my great grandmothers head and when she passed 10 years ago so began the process of recreating this torte. My grandma took it up and being the excellent cook she is as well ashaving witnessed the baking of said torte many times before, it tasted exactly the same as when her mother made it. Over the years, however, my relatives have slowly begun to say that “huh this one tastes different” and “something’s missing, it’s not quite right” every time we eat it. Now personally I don’t notice any difference other than standard fluctuations in texture or density but nothing outside of the realm of normal baking errors. With my relatives the complaints of it “not being quite right” have only grown in number. And Ive experimented with this theory. Two years ago I recorded the recipe my grandmother used to bake it and I made sure she used the exact same procedure the next year. Yet even with objectively identical recipes my relatives still said that “last years was better”.

Personally I believe that as they aged and had eaten more of this torte over the years they simply lost some of its magic (it truly is an incredible torte). Now I don’t mean to dissuade discussion of various syntheses and such in this thread as I do believe that can make a significant difference, however, I dont think the effect of simply aging and spending more time with this substance is to be ignored completely.

ive had incredible MDMA (reagent tested with marquis, madelin, and mecke) that has had all the effects old timers talk about. MDMA today doesn’t necessarily have anything wrong with it, maybe it’s just you...


----------



## G_Chem

thegreenhand said:


> Just gonna put my .02$ in here, and I’ll note that I’m too young to have been around in the “glory days” of MDMA. That said an interesting psychological effect I’ve noticed is what I call the “chestnut torte effect”
> 
> Every Christmas my family has a nice big feast and we always have homemade chestnut torte for dessert. Now the recipe for this torte was only ever stored in my great grandmothers head and when she passed 10 years ago so began the process of recreating this torte. My grandma took it up and being the excellent cook she is as well ashaving witnessed the baking of said torte many times before, it tasted exactly the same as when her mother made it. Over the years, however, my relatives have slowly begun to say that “huh this one tastes different” and “something’s missing, it’s not quite right” every time we eat it. Now personally I don’t notice any difference other than standard fluctuations in texture or density but nothing outside of the realm of normal baking errors. With my relatives the complaints of it “not being quite right” have only grown in number. And Ive experimented with this theory. Two years ago I recorded the recipe my grandmother used to bake it and I made sure she used the exact same procedure the next year. Yet even with objectively identical recipes my relatives still said that “last years was better”.
> 
> Personally I believe that as they aged and had eaten more of this torte over the years they simply lost some of its magic (it truly is an incredible torte). Now I don’t mean to dissuade discussion of various syntheses and such in this thread as I do believe that can make a significant difference, however, I dont think the effect of simply aging and spending more time with this substance is to be ignored completely.
> 
> ive had incredible MDMA (reagent tested with marquis, madelin, and mecke) that has had all the effects old timers talk about. MDMA today doesn’t necessarily have anything wrong with it, maybe it’s just you...



Just like MDMA of old, the “ingredients” are not quite what they used to be.  GMO crap bred to repel bugs not for the flavor.  Farming practices that have essentially depleted our foods of many nutrients and minerals essential to our well being.  I’d be willing to bet years back food on the shelves had a bit more pride put into it.

All that said, I get what your saying and in that case indeed loss of novelty.  Idk this is just different.

To compare this to your torte analogy would be like saying the torte went from a sweet tasty treat to a pile of literal shit.  Not just “not quite as good.”  Also it doesn’t factor in why this “torte” sometimes still tastes good...

-GC


----------



## thegreenhand

Is the MDMA that 


G_Chem said:


> Just like MDMA of old, the “ingredients” are not quite what they used to be.  GMO crap bred to repel bugs not for the flavor.  Farming practices that have essentially depleted our foods of many nutrients and minerals essential to our well being.  I’d be willing to bet years back food on the shelves had a bit more pride put into it.
> 
> All that said, I get what your saying and in that case indeed loss of novelty.  Idk this is just different.
> 
> To compare this to your torte analogy would be like saying the torte went from a sweet tasty treat to a pile of literal shit.  Not just “not quite as good.”  Also it doesn’t factor in why this “torte” sometimes still tastes good...
> 
> -GC


Is the MDMA that you are calling “a literal pile of shit” reagent or lab tested? I don’t mean to be condescending but I have hard time believing that the same chemical compound (give or take the chirality) could provide such vastly different effects. The more logical explanation to me would be that one is simply not MDMA or at least MDMA cut with something else


----------



## psy997

thegreenhand said:


> Is the MDMA that you are calling “a literal pile of shit” reagent or lab tested? I don’t mean to be condescending but I have hard time believing that the same chemical compound (give or take the chirality) could provide such vastly different effects. The more logical explanation to me would be that one is simply not MDMA or at least MDMA cut with something else



Read the thread. Yes. It's testing as MDMA.


----------



## G_Chem

thegreenhand said:


> Is the MDMA that
> 
> Is the MDMA that you are calling “a literal pile of shit” reagent or lab tested? I don’t mean to be condescending but I have hard time believing that the same chemical compound (give or take the chirality) could provide such vastly different effects. The more logical explanation to me would be that one is simply not MDMA or at least MDMA cut with something else



As Psy said we’ve got many people who’ve had their product GCMS tested to show MDMA which still gave lack luster results.

So far theories range from potential substances which can test as MDMA, to my guess which is impurities cause most of these issues.

-GC


----------



## vecktor

sekio said:


> OK, but doesn't the piperonal synthesis proceed via MDP2NP (Henry reaction with nitroethane) which is then either reduced to MDA & methylated,  or oxidised in a Nef reaction to MDP2P and then reacted with methylamine and a reducing agent (Al, NaBH4, NaCNBH3, LiAlH4, catalytic hydrogenation, etc)? Do you know which specific route was used? I personally don;t think it matters, but the discussion would benefit from detailed infor.


Not neccesarily nitrostyrene, piperonal darzens to glycidate then to MDP2P then reductive amination, and there are other variations obvious to anyone reasonably practised in the art. for example umpolung approaches followed by rearrangement.
MDMA as a simple molelule has a lot of ways to attack it if you want, but none of the alternatives are as cheap as piperonal safrole or PMKglycidate through the ketone.
There are some really funky routes that are not public but are fairly obvious if you disconnect the benzyl to ring carbon to give methylenedioxybenzene as one component and the complete side chain synthon as another. 

I don't think the route matters that much so long as the synthesis is carried out correctly and there is sufficiant purification of the product.


----------



## vecktor

G_Chem said:


> As Psy said we’ve got many people who’ve had their product GCMS tested to show MDMA which still gave lack luster results.
> 
> So far theories range from potential substances which can test as MDMA, to my guess which is impurities cause most of these issues.
> 
> -GC


precisely. There is a world of difference between qualitative GCMS which says MDMA yes/no and more serious GCMS that says MDMA plus whatever other junk is there or not.


----------



## vecktor

> Thanks for the info byte. I have never personally worked with a HPLC. They do seem awfully finicky compared to the GC.


In my experience the HPLC side of it is the relatively easy bit of LCMS HPLC-UV is super robust bit it does need a decent length of column, the MS side is usually the cause of headaches, it is a bit of an ask take a solvent weighing 60-100 Da and an analyte weighing perhaps 3x that, completely separate the solvent from the analyte completely without some weird stuff going on. you have to get rid of 100ul per min plus of solvent.  This is much much easier when the analyte weighs 500 or 1000 Da or more. Allow for the fact that the atmospheric pressure ionisation is horrendously inefficient, and relatively bad tempered and either you decide to throw away all fragments or analytes less than say 100 Da or you see all sorts of solvent clusters and general junk. LC-MS is great in theory. Big fan of LCMS TOF especially HRMS variations with lock, 4 dp mass accuracy is very powerful in identifying molecular formulas.

You can also break GC-MS but it is more difficult, students do come up with creative ways to do it all the same. Injecting  acidic water is the classic, weighs obviously 18g.mol 1 mol of vapour is 24 litres at stp and a lot more at 250oC so the 2ul injectin flashes back into the gas lines and filters blows a load of old junk out of there and shoots into the inlet liner. result dead liner and damaged column.


----------



## thegreenhand

I’ve been reading the thread but it’s 211 pages so no I'm not exactly gonna be completely on the same page as y'all sorry. Just wanted to add my opinion that's all


----------



## indigoaura

> Generally people that lose the magic have shorter experiences, less of that overwhelming love and gushy feeling. They aren’t lethargic like some of the shit today will do, they don’t get brutally nasty comedowns, they still seem to be enjoying it. Their pupils are dilated. Etc.



Most of what I have read about "losing the magic" involves restructuring of the serotonin system. Less love, and more noticeable dopamine effects. To me, what makes the "meh" product different is the lack of dopamine effects in favor of this very sleepy, glued to the couch effect.

@user666 Thanks for so succinctly summarizing decent MDMA when you said, "Finally, I was able to buy a good product that dilates eyes, locks the jaw is energetic and lovey at 80mg for 5h." 

If you don't mind me asking, had you been getting "meh" product for some time before this? How long have you been rolling overall? What is your overall history of use? How would you describe the difference between the two products?

I rolled yesterday with the same product I used previously on NYE. This was after a 5 day treatment with BPC-157 as recommended in another thread. There was no noticeable improvement in effect, and I was glued to the couch mostly. I took photos of my pupils throughout the experience. I never had fully dilated pupils, only minimally dilated. After this experience, I think this product is a very clean version of "meh." I don't doubt it has been washed/re-crystallized etc. I appreciate it that I am basically functioning normally today, without the side-effects of contaminants. But the lack of eye dilation is telling.

In other news, I am hoping to have some full GCMS data for two of my meh samples soon. When I get it, I will post it for analysis.


----------



## thegreenhand

G_Chem said:


> As Psy said we’ve got many people who’ve had their product GCMS tested to show MDMA which still gave lack luster results.
> 
> So far theories range from potential substances which can test as MDMA, to my guess which is impurities cause most of these issues.
> 
> -GC


I would agree that impurities are the probable cause. Sorry to be behind in the thread again but what is it exactly this thread is looking for? The specific adulterants used to make MehDMA? Or if something is literally wrong with the MDMA molecules being synthesized? If its the adulterants I'd assume that's gonna be different every batch


----------



## indigoaura

> I would agree that impurities are the probable cause. Sorry to be behind in the thread again but what is it exactly this thread is looking for? The specific adulterants used to make MehDMA? Or if something is literally wrong with the MDMA molecules being synthesized? If its the adulterants I'd assume that's gonna be different every batch



I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but I would like to see the nature of the issue identified so that it can be tested for through common drug testing labs or through reagent testing. If we ever got to a point where a specific adulterant was identified, and that was added to the catalog of a company like Drugs Data, then awareness would go up. Maybe there would be a shift in the approach to cooking the product, and less of it would be on the market.


----------



## thegreenhand

indigoaura said:


> I can't speak for everyone in the thread, but I would like to see the nature of the issue identified so that it can be tested for through common drug testing labs or through reagent testing. If we ever got to a point where a specific adulterant was identified, and that was added to the catalog of a company like Drugs Data, then awareness would go up. Maybe there would be a shift in the approach to cooking the product, and less of it would be on the market.


Gotcha, thanks for filling me in. I appreciate it.

That would certainly be an ideal scenario to identify a common cutting agent. I’ll let the big kids get back to their chemistry now


----------



## psy997

Thanks for engaging how you have, @thegreenhand :D

Basically, as indigoaura said, we've identified a large enough phenomena of lackluster and obviously "wrong" MDMA experiences and effects, noticed that this so-called MehDMA is still testing as MDMA on all apparent fronts, and now are endeavoring to discover why this phenomenon is occurring. At present, the thread we're following the most is that of active impurities. And, we're open to anything that would explain it. Personally, I think it's active impurities due to the ability of MehDMA to ruin a psychedelic or other drug experience if dosed during said experience.  And, again, I'm still open.

And thinking about it, it's always possible some variation of MDMA that still tests as MDMA could have bad effects that ruin psychedelics. And then, I'm right back around to, who the hell knows? All I know is, I miss MDMA.


----------



## thegreenhand

Aha I'll consider myself a lucky one that I've only had good batches so far.

If I may ask have we identified any differences globally? Like North American vs. European vs. Asia for example.


----------



## Goodwalt

thegreenhand said:


> Aha I'll consider myself a lucky one that I've only had good batches so far.
> 
> If I may ask have we identified any differences globally? Like North American vs. European vs. Asia for example.


The lackluster effects basically repeat themselves all around the world but without proper testing of all these lackluster samples to find similarities among them it's impossible to prove our theory. So we are kind of close to where we started... we believe we are onto something but we cannot know for sure


----------



## G_Chem

thegreenhand said:


> Aha I'll consider myself a lucky one that I've only had good batches so far.
> 
> If I may ask have we identified any differences globally? Like North American vs. European vs. Asia for example.



It seems certain Canadian or possibly northern US domestic producers still make the “magic.”  I’d wager also places in Aus and possibly Asia (although we don’t hear much from them folks.)

That said folks argue all the time over whether Dutch product is the best there is or worst.

-GC


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> If you don't mind me asking, had you been getting "meh" product for some time before this?


6 years



indigoaura said:


> How long have you been rolling overall?


~15 years



indigoaura said:


> What is your overall history of use?


Once or twice per year. Always 3 months apart. Usually in my house with friends.  I don't use any other drugs.
Did not use it for the last five years because I had only crap from DW and the effects were sleepy and required huge doses to even get the eyes dilated (I observed this after others have consumed it).  I thought, that I have lost the magic but my friends complained about the lackluster meh experience, too (some were 1st timers). I sent some to saferparty.ch and the result was only MDMA around 200mg.
Then about half a year ago a friend got a good product and the entire party came alive (like 20 people). All of them were energetic dancing and touchy/cuddly talkatively open and emphatic with doses below 100mg and huge eyes till morning (including me).  So I started looking for the same good stuff.



indigoaura said:


> How would you describe the difference between the two products?


The meh stuff are champagne crystals. No smell.  The good stuff is like white sugar. Also no smell.
The meh requires at least 2x higher dose.  You almost cannot feel it at 100mg.
160mg of meh makes me high but sleepy in the beginning.  Later the sleepiness goes away a little, and a some energy appears but not enough to make me want to get up from the couch. e.g. I like to sit alone, not talk with anyone and watch the fireplace. Also there is no love nor empathy. The music is not enhanced. The pupils are barely dilated and they visibly contract when I look at a light bulb. The touch feels normal to my skin (not "wow" like in the magic stuff). I had a tennis elbow once and the pain has gone away while on the meh. My penis can get hard on the meh stuff but I can't get it up on the magic stuff. The sexual thoughts are also different, e.g. I remember looking at a girl that I found particularly appealing and having fantasies about penetrating her roughly on the meh stuff, but on the magic stuff I just think about cuddling. At about 200mg of the meh, my jaw starts to lock, but just a little, it is not visible to others.  All of this lasts only 3h on the meh with no pleasant afterglow afterwards. The magic stuff lasts almost 2x longer with a pleasant afterglow.

I work at a serology lab (I am not a doctor), I cannot test the composition of the drugs, but I am thinking about testing the blood of people on the meh and magic stuff for comparison?
Any suggestions what I should test for?


----------



## draculic acid69

In


user666 said:


> 6 years
> 
> 
> ~15 years
> 
> 
> Once or twice per year. Always 3 months apart. Usually in my house with friends.  I don't use any other drugs.
> Did not use it for the last five years because I had only crap from DW and the effects were sleepy and required huge doses to even get the eyes dilated (I observed this after others have consumed it).  I thought, that I have lost the magic but my friends complained about the lackluster meh experience, too (some were 1st timers). I sent some to saferparty.ch and the result was only MDMA around 200mg.
> Then about half a year ago a friend got a good product and the entire party came alive (like 20 people). All of them were energetic dancing and touchy/cuddly talkatively open and emphatic with doses below 100mg and huge eyes till morning (including me).  So I started looking for the same good stuff.
> 
> 
> The meh stuff are champagne crystals. No smell.  The good stuff is like white sugar. Also no smell.
> The meh requires at least 2x higher dose.  You almost cannot feel it at 100mg.
> 160mg of meh makes me high but sleepy in the beginning.  Later the sleepiness goes away a little, and a some energy appears but not enough to make me want to get up from the couch. e.g. I like to sit alone, not talk with anyone and watch the fireplace. Also there is no love nor empathy. The music is not enhanced. The pupils are barely dilated and they visibly contract when I look at a light bulb. The touch feels normal to my skin (not "wow" like in the magic stuff). I had a tennis elbow once and the pain has gone away while on the meh. My penis can get hard on the meh stuff but I can't get it up on the magic stuff. The sexual thoughts are also different, e.g. I remember looking at a girl that I found particularly appealing and having fantasies about penetrating her roughly on the meh stuff, but on the magic stuff I just think about cuddling. At about 200mg of the meh, my jaw starts to lock, but just a little, it is not visible to others.  All of this lasts only 3h on the meh with no pleasant afterglow afterwards. The magic stuff lasts almost 2x longer with a pleasant afterglow.
> 
> I work at a serology lab (I am not a doctor), I cannot test the composition of the drugs, but I am thinking about testing the blood of people on the meh and magic stuff for comparison?
> Any suggestions what I should test for?


Interesting way to go with this.also has anyone with meh or magic got a way to test m.p. or b.p. or decomposition temperature of both? This could help tell the two apart.


----------



## thegreenhand

G_Chem said:


> It seems certain Canadian or possibly northern US domestic producers still make the “magic.”  I’d wager also places in Aus and possibly Asia (although we don’t hear much from them folks.)
> 
> That said folks argue all the time over whether Dutch product is the best there is or worst.
> 
> -GC


I can only speak for North America which has treated me well so far. Though one time a vendor had “Dutch crystal” that felt the same as the other times. Obviously you here’s no way to know where to actually came from though. Some of my friends are a little more risky with their drug taking and have had presses and that they rate very highly. Either containing quality mdma or mda on occasion


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 "I work at a serology lab (I am not a doctor), I cannot test the composition of the drugs, but I am thinking about testing the blood of people on the meh and magic stuff for comparison?
Any suggestions what I should test for?"

Earlier in the thread, someone suggested testing oxytocin levels. They said that would be a clear indicator of what was going on. MDMA should raise oxytocin levels. As I recall, the recommendation was to test the levels on the person sober, and then again when high. I think @Glubrahnum was the one who suggested this, but I can't recall. Unfortunately, he is unable to post at this time. 

Do you mind me asking where you are located roughly?

Overall, your experience sounds very similar to mine. Long history of use, but a sudden and abrupt shift in effects that was noticed by everyone in my social group, and we noticed how new users no longer experienced it the same. I agree with your observations of differences in the compounds as well, except for the sexual observations. For me, the magic sex was where it was at. The meh sex is okay, but nothing like it was. But, I'm female, so my experience may be different there. I do think that the meh product can bring up more aggressive thoughts overall.


----------



## indigoaura

@thegreenhand  - "That would certainly be an ideal scenario to identify a common cutting agent." We don't necessarily think it is a cutting agent in the sense that cooks are deliberately cutting the product with something.  Seems more likely that variations in production and/or quality of chemicals etc produces a contaminant that is having an unexpected effect (possibly blocking transporters or receptors).


----------



## psy997

Yea I'd imagine whatever hormones are testable in blood, should be looked for.

Also, I'd like to echo the aggressive thoughts thing. On MehDMA I can irritable pretty easily. Given, nowadays I'm irritable simply because the product is shit. But looking back before I knew what was going on, it was also an issue then.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Earlier in the thread, someone suggested testing oxytocin levels. They said that would be a clear indicator of what was going on. MDMA should raise oxytocin levels.


It is hard to test for oxytocin because a large sample of fresh blood is required. This blood should not be stored so it complicates sample collection and delivery unless I throw the party in the lab 
Anything else?



indigoaura said:


> Do you mind me asking where you are located roughly?


Slovenia



indigoaura said:


> I agree with your observations of differences in the compounds as well, except for the sexual observations. For me, the magic sex was where it was at. The meh sex is okay, but nothing like it was. But, I'm female, so my experience may be different there. I do think that the meh product can bring up more aggressive thoughts overall.


Don't get me wrong. I still have amorous feelings on the magic stuff, I just cannot express them sexually because I can't get it up.


----------



## draculic acid69

LAB PARTY


----------



## G_Chem

Unfortunately oxytocin is probably the best one of the bunch as that is the “love” aspect that everyone seems to be missing the most.

Dopamine would be my next guess but you’d need samples of both to do comparisons.  It seems this “meh” stuff might be missing some of the dopamine component of the roll, hence the lethargy, poor mood, etc.

And then finally serotonin but I think for all these you’d need samples of both good and bad product or else you’d have nothing to compare it to.

-GC


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> Unfortunately oxytocin is probably the best one of the bunch as that is the “love” aspect that everyone seems to be missing the most.


Do you still think that after watching this video ?






There are some papers published by this author on that subject, too.


----------



## G_Chem

Well as I watch this I disagree with some of the generalized observations as well as his use of Freudian theories.

Also while there are similarities to MDMA and the post orgasmic state they aren’t the same.

I should be more clear on oxytocin’s role.  It is what allows us to trust a complete stranger like you’ve known them since day 1.  It’s what bonds you with others, and I disagree when he says you don’t want contact with those people after.  When I roll with someone I just get closer and closer, and festivals would be hell if you didn’t want contact after a roll.

Also MBDB has been found to be far inferior to MDMA and not comparable to MDMA.  The fact he seems to use MDMA, MDEA, and MBDB interchangeably further loses credibility in my eyes.

He just connected one aspect of the MDMA experience with the post orgasmic state which, while similar in a few aspects, isn’t even close to the whole picture.

Also someone questions him on my MBDB statement and he kinda is like “yea but I tried it and it’s the same..”  How is his sample size of 1 better than ALL the people that say it lacks.

This guy frankly comes across as arrogant and his quick anger at the light guy left a bad taste in my mouth.

All that said I did/do appreciate his desire to research this subject.  (Note: I commented here as I watched.)

I’ve looked a lot into oxytocin and MDMA.  It is a major aspect of the experience.  Humans want this answer of one single thing that causes all the effects and can’t grasp the synergy of multiple factors that give the “magic” we seek.

MDMA has one of the more complex pharmacological profiles and all parts of it are why it’s the king of empathogens.

-GC


----------



## user666

Is the takeaway from this Torsten's lecture that Oxytocin levels are not consistent in MDMA users but Prolactin levels are ?


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 I found this to be a very interesting and informative article about the documented, measurable effects of MDMA in comparison to LSD and D-Amphetamine: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-019-0569-3


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> Is the takeaway from this Torsten's lecture that Oxytocin levels are not consistent in MDMA users but Prolactin levels are ?



No his lecture is in regards to the similarities between the MDMA state and the post orgasmic state, he then uses this to postulate that prolactin is much more important in the overall experience than oxytocin based on this along with the fact MBDB doesn’t release oxytocin.

Oxytocin is a component of the MDMA experience he doesn’t deny that, he’s just trying to say the majority of MDMA’s effects are due to prolactin.

I think we can all agree that while you can sometimes feel certain similarities between MDMA and post orgasm they are still two different experiences.  I’m not in a state of overly trusting others like MDMA, that’s the oxytocin.

He again disregards that MBDB doesn’t have nearly the same heart opening effect by claiming that “he’s tried it and it’s the same” pretty unscientific to me...

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Got to roll back my previous statements about my roll. I ended up getting quite sick yesterday. Dizzy and nauseous. Magnesium helped. This weird pattern of feeling fine the day after the roll and then being sick to my stomach/dizzy for about 2-3 days after that is something I have only dealt with after sub-par, "meh" rolls. After a magic roll, there would be an afterglow followed by a day or two of moodiness/depression, and an overall re-set to normal within a week.

I really feel like this article is pivotal: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426

"...transporter-mediated release induced by a releasing drug can be blocked by a drug with pure uptake inhibitory activity." 

Looking at the charts for what happened to MDMA release when paired with substances 12 and 13 is pretty telling. You can see how the MDMA alone would have responded, but how the response is totally flat-lined with the addition of those blocking compounds.


----------



## indigoaura

> I think we can all agree that while you can sometimes feel certain similarities between MDMA and post orgasm they are still two different experiences.



IMO, good MDMA is not post-orgasmic. Pre-orgasmic maybe. To classify it as post-orgasmic completely misses it.


----------



## indigoaura

This is interesting:








						Side Effects of MDMA (Molly/Ecstasy)
					

Read about MDMA's (Molly/Ecstasy) side effects, including anxiety, dizziness and feeling cold during use.




					rollsafe.org
				




Quite a few things stand out to me here. Notice how many people reported feeling cold. Yet, feeling cold is one of the things that stands out to me about less stellar product, while I used to always feel hot and want to remove clothes on the good product. However, look at the numbers for drowsiness and fatigue. Nobody is getting tired, yet, feeling tired is such a huge characteristic of the product I get.


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Well as I watch this I disagree with some of the generalized observations as well as his use of Freudian theories.
> 
> Also while there are similarities to MDMA and the post orgasmic state they aren’t the same.
> 
> I should be more clear on oxytocin’s role.  It is what allows us to trust a complete stranger like you’ve known them since day 1.  It’s what bonds you with others, and I disagree when he says you don’t want contact with those people after.  When I roll with someone I just get closer and closer, and festivals would be hell if you didn’t want contact after a roll.
> 
> Also MBDB has been found to be far inferior to MDMA and not comparable to MDMA.  The fact he seems to use MDMA, MDEA, and MBDB interchangeably further loses credibility in my eyes.
> 
> He just connected one aspect of the MDMA experience with the post orgasmic state which, while similar in a few aspects, isn’t even close to the whole picture.
> 
> Also someone questions him on my MBDB statement and he kinda is like “yea but I tried it and it’s the same..”  How is his sample size of 1 better than ALL the people that say it lacks.
> 
> This guy frankly comes across as arrogant and his quick anger at the light guy left a bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> All that said I did/do appreciate his desire to research this subject.  (Note: I commented here as I watched.)
> 
> I’ve looked a lot into oxytocin and MDMA.  It is a major aspect of the experience.  Humans want this answer of one single thing that causes all the effects and can’t grasp the synergy of multiple factors that give the “magic” we seek.
> 
> MDMA has one of the more complex pharmacological profiles and all parts of it are why it’s the king of empathogens.
> 
> -GC


If you're interested in the huggy lovey vibe mdma gives I can see how mbdb
Might not be as awesome as mdma but as someone who takes it not for the lovey huggy feeling but the crazy eyes rolling in the back of your
head,want to be fully up intense euphoric peak feeling im telling you mbdb is far superior.to say mdma and mbdb are interchangeable is very realistic as when I had both going on a lot of ppl preferred the mbdb.this is a group of about a hundred ppl so u cant play the personal preference card on that one.it was a big sample size.the peak is so much more intense and visual and trippy and messy so if you're in it for the connectedness it's still there but the lovey huggy Ness is turned down a little.not too much but a little bit.less empathogenic but more visual and euphoric.and hectic.


----------



## user666

Arrgh,  Oxytocin is very volatile, the sampled blood must be drawn into a chilled test tube with EDTA and Aprotinin, centrifuged and stored at -70deg.C during transport.
This makes it very difficult for "patients" to just send me their blood.


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> Arrgh,  Oxytocin is very volatile, the sampled blood must be drawn into a chilled test tube with EDTA and Aprotinin, centrifuged and stored at -70deg.C during transport.
> This makes it very difficult for "patients" to just send me their blood.



We understand this, it doesn’t make it any less important to try analyze one day.  Well it seems people can’t even agree on whether good MDMA is supposed to make your dick hard or not either so I’m not sure if looking at Prolactin will work either.

I will say that while I disagree with the researchers conclusions he did make very interesting argument that showed me the importance of Prolactin in the overall experience.



draculic acid69 said:


> If you're interested in the huggy lovey vibe mdma gives I can see how mbdb
> Might not be as awesome as mdma but as someone who takes it not for the lovey huggy feeling but the crazy eyes rolling in the back of your
> head,want to be fully up intense euphoric peak feeling im telling you mbdb is far superior.to say mdma and mbdb are interchangeable is very realistic as when I had both going on a lot of ppl preferred the mbdb.this is a group of about a hundred ppl so u cant play the personal preference card on that one.it was a big sample size.the peak is so much more intense and visual and trippy and messy so if you're in it for the connectedness it's still there but the lovey huggy Ness is turned down a little.not too much but a little bit.less empathogenic but more visual and euphoric.and hectic.



As I’ve said before your the first person to say this and nearly ALL other reports disagree with both your and his statements.  He even gets called out on it and he kind of agrees but then follows up with “yea close enough” kind of statement.

I also seriously doubt the authenticity of your material unless your talking about circa 90’s product.  MBDB hasn’t been synthesized except in very small niche batches since then.

Frankly I call bullshit on the “hundred” of supposed test subjects.  I’m an actual facilitator, have supplied countless people with various experiences and I can’t honestly say I’ve ever watched 100 people all take the same batch of something and be able to make conclusions from that.

Find me three reports online that corroborate your experiences of MBDB being superior to MDMA and I’ll start listening.



I’m gonna be honest with ya’ll I’m starting to doubt we’ll ever find the answer to this question, I’m beginning to give up hope.  I’ve been extensively studying this since before 2010 and while I’ve gained a grasp on this, all I’ve really learned is that MDMA can vary...

As I read last night in the old Hive forum I saw post similar to this about meth regarding different synthetic routes giving vastly different durations and effects.  He quickly met all the same problems we have here.

MDMA variation is a real thing but I’m not sure if we can ever fully agree on what’s the best.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> I’m gonna be honest with ya’ll I’m starting to doubt we’ll ever find the answer to this question, I’m beginning to give up hope. I’ve been extensively studying this since before 2010 and while I’ve gained a grasp on this, all I’ve really learned is that MDMA can vary...



The only way we are going to "solve" this issue is through lab work. GCMS may or may not be enough to see what we need to see. I am hoping that when I get files back on my Meh samples, that people on the forum who know how to read GCMS will be able to offer insights into what is going on.


----------



## indigoaura

Is there anyone in this thread who can teach how to run a column for cleaning MDMA?


----------



## indigoaura

Inhibition of serotonin transporters disrupts the enhancement of fear memory extinction by 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) - PubMed
					

We validate enhancement of fear memory extinction by MDMA in a translational behavioral model, and reveal the importance of 5-HTT and 5-HT<sub>2A</sub> receptors to this effect. These observations support future clinical research of MDMA as an adjunct to exposure therapy, and provide important...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




This article demonstrates that when 5-HT transporters are blocked, MDMA no longer results in extinction of FPS. Extinction of fear-potentiated startle is one of the primary mechanisms for treatment of PTSD. The article also points out, "5-HT release alone did not enhance extinction. Blockade of MDMA's effect by 5-HTT inhibition also downregulated 5-HT2A-mediated behavior, and 5-HT2A antagonism disrupted MDMA's effect on extinction."

What this says to me is that 5-HT transporters play a crucial role in the primary effects of MDMA, and when they are blocked there are multiple mechanisms of action that are shut down.


----------



## thegreenhand

indigoaura said:


> Inhibition of serotonin transporters disrupts the enhancement of fear memory extinction by 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) - PubMed
> 
> 
> We validate enhancement of fear memory extinction by MDMA in a translational behavioral model, and reveal the importance of 5-HTT and 5-HT<sub>2A</sub> receptors to this effect. These observations support future clinical research of MDMA as an adjunct to exposure therapy, and provide important...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This article demonstrates that when 5-HT transporters are blocked, MDMA no longer results in extinction of FPS. Extinction of fear-potentiated startle is one of the primary mechanisms for treatment of PTSD. The article also points out, "5-HT release alone did not enhance extinction. Blockade of MDMA's effect by 5-HTT inhibition also downregulated 5-HT2A-mediated behavior, and 5-HT2A antagonism disrupted MDMA's effect on extinction."
> 
> What this says to me is that 5-HT transporters play a crucial role in the primary effects of MDMA, and when they are blocked there are multiple mechanisms of action that are shut down.


I was always under the impression that MDMA essentially makes the 5HT transporter run in reverse. Effectively shuttling serotonin out of the presynaptic vesicles. Other things like oxytocin levels rising may be indirectly to due to the empathy felt


----------



## indigoaura

> I was always under the impression that MDMA essentially makes the 5HT transporter run in reverse. Effectively shuttling serotonin out of the presynaptic vesicles. Other things like oxytocin levels rising may be indirectly to due to the empathy felt



There is a mechanism where some of the transporters operate in reverse, as I recall from the Dacesafe slide show. However, serotonin release has always been theorized to be the primary reason for MDMA's effects, although obviously the reason for the effects is multi-faceted. 

If you have not seen it before, this is a great visual: https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/ecstasy-slideshow/

What this article specifically points out, however, is that one of the primary means of PTSD treatment appears to be the direct result of the 5-HT transporters, and when they are blocked, that effect no longer occurs. Since other articles have already demonstrated that synthesis impurities in microgram ranges are blocking those 5-HT transporters, (https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426) this leads me to conclude that the loss of effects we are noticing may be due to something similar. 

I will also say this...I do not personally buy into the idea that oxytocin is primarily responsible for the MDMA euphoria and empathy. Oxytocin release is in overdrive during childbirth. I've been present to witness several childbirths, and let me tell you...nobody is rolling. Nobody feels good. I'm sure it contributes to the overall experience, but I think focusing on oxytocin as the source of MDMA magic is barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## MBaggott

Apologies for jumping in this thread without reading the entire thread.  

As several have said, the difference between batches is never enantiomers. 

Oxytocin is not likely to be a good biomarker for the effects of interest. As indigoaura implies, it is at best necessary but not sufficient. We also don't really know if blood levels after MDMA correlate with brain levels.  Plus, the vasoconstriction from MDMA breaks red blood cells during blood draws which falsely inflates oxytocin concentrations. I basically don't believe any of the human studies measuring oxytocin for this reason.

Contaminants from the synthesis seem like a plausible theory to me. But I would suggest they are more likely to be altering metabolism in the gut and liver than changing effects in the brain. There are admittedly a few contaminants that are known to bind to reuptake transporters (see Pifli et al 2005 doi:10.1124/jpet.105.084426). But I doubt these are ever make it into the brain in high enough concentrations to matter. 

I'd more readily believe contaminants alter metabolism. There must be many that are substrates for cyp2d6 and other enzymes. A reason I think altered metabolism could strongly affect the roll is because we know MDMA hits people who lack cyp2d6 differently from normal metabolizers. You can see this in Figure 2 of Schmidt et al 2016 (link below). Even though cyp2d6 gets inhibited by MDMA, it likely eats up a few tens of mg of MDMA first. Without any 2d6, you get a faster peak and a different ratio of MDMA to crappy physiologically active metabolites.  And keep in mind that any biproducts of synthesis don't need to make it into the brain to have these effects, they only need to compete with MDMA for enzymes in the gut.

Now, if this theory is true, it may be that pure MDMA is actually less "enjoyable" than MDMA with some enzyme substrates/inhibitors thrown in.  In which case, maybe you need a tiny dose of dextromethorphan or something a few hours before the MDMA to recover the magic of yesteryear's MDMA. 









						schmid2016 mdma cyp2d6.pdf
					






					drive.google.com


----------



## indigoaura

Hi @MBaggott, welcome! Thanks for contributing.

I do not recall a lot of discussion of the liver over the last 212 pages. 

I have seen someone on MDMA have a seizure due to interference at the CYP2D6 level with a prescription drug they were taking at the same time. So, I certainly believe that CYP2D6 is a significant factor in how MDMA is processed/felt.

If I am understanding you right, you are suggesting that old MDMA may have had byproducts that competed with CYP2D6 and thus allowed greater amounts of MDMA into the bloodstream? Couldn't the same effect be achieved by raising the dose of MDMA?

There have been some more recent studies of the CYP2D6 human mutants that show that the genetic mutations have no notable effect on MDMA metabolism. I would have to look for those articles as I don't have the link ready. I do recall someone sharing it waaaay back in the thread. 

We've gone back and forth a lot in the thread about whether it is possible the old MDMA had active contaminants that improved the roll. However, if that was the case it would mean that pure MDMA was not "magical" in the sense that we are discussing. That is hard to believe, though. Surely Shulgin's synthesis was relatively pure?


----------



## MBaggott

Yes, you're understanding my theory correctly. I would also hypothesize that you can't easily imitate the effects with higher dose, but that's more speculative. People without cyp2d6 have faster rises in blood concentrations, while high doses seem to delay the time to peak.

I'm relying on the largest dataset available for my inferences (Matthias Liechti's lab, look at the linked paper), which leads to slightly different conclusions from the Barcelona group results, which you may be remembering and which had a much smaller N. Importantly, everyone agrees that 2D6 isn't a safety issue. What I'm suggesting is inhibiting it and/or other enzymes can modestly but significantly modify the quality of MDMA effects.

Sasha's MDMA was likely pure, but how many people are comparing his MDMA to modern?


----------



## thegreenhand

indigoaura said:


> There is a mechanism where some of the transporters operate in reverse, as I recall from the Dacesafe slide show. However, serotonin release has always been theorized to be the primary reason for MDMA's effects, although obviously the reason for the effects is multi-faceted.
> 
> If you have not seen it before, this is a great visual: https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/ecstasy-slideshow/
> 
> What this article specifically points out, however, is that one of the primary means of PTSD treatment appears to be the direct result of the 5-HT transporters, and when they are blocked, that effect no longer occurs. Since other articles have already demonstrated that synthesis impurities in microgram ranges are blocking those 5-HT transporters, (https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426) this leads me to conclude that the loss of effects we are noticing may be due to something similar.
> 
> I will also say this...I do not personally buy into the idea that oxytocin is primarily responsible for the MDMA euphoria and empathy. Oxytocin release is in overdrive during childbirth. I've been present to witness several childbirths, and let me tell you...nobody is rolling. Nobody feels good. I'm sure it contributes to the overall experience, but I think focusing on oxytocin as the source of MDMA magic is barking up the wrong tree.


Well yes what the serotonin/5HT transport does is remove serotonin/5HT from the synaptic cleft and place the neurotransmitter back into vesicles in the presynaptic cell’s axon. If this ran in reverse it would lead to serotonin release from the presynaptic cell which as you said is the primary action. We’re saying the same thing it looks like.

I think this is promising and according to the study about synthesis impurities the two candidates would be:

1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine 

N-formyl- 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine

 Would any chemistry geeks in here know how hard these would be to assay?


----------



## G_Chem

MBaggott said:


> Apologies for jumping in this thread without reading the entire thread.
> 
> As several have said, the difference between batches is never enantiomers.
> 
> Oxytocin is not likely to be a good biomarker for the effects of interest. As indigoaura implies, it is at best necessary but not sufficient. We also don't really know if blood levels after MDMA correlate with brain levels.  Plus, the vasoconstriction from MDMA breaks red blood cells during blood draws which falsely inflates oxytocin concentrations. I basically don't believe any of the human studies measuring oxytocin for this reason.
> 
> Contaminants from the synthesis seem like a plausible theory to me. But I would suggest they are more likely to be altering metabolism in the gut and liver than changing effects in the brain. There are admittedly a few contaminants that are known to bind to reuptake transporters (see Pifli et al 2005 doi:10.1124/jpet.105.084426). But I doubt these are ever make it into the brain in high enough concentrations to matter.
> 
> I'd more readily believe contaminants alter metabolism. There must be many that are substrates for cyp2d6 and other enzymes. A reason I think altered metabolism could strongly affect the roll is because we know MDMA hits people who lack cyp2d6 differently from normal metabolizers. You can see this in Figure 2 of Schmidt et al 2016 (link below). Even though cyp2d6 gets inhibited by MDMA, it likely eats up a few tens of mg of MDMA first. Without any 2d6, you get a faster peak and a different ratio of MDMA to crappy physiologically active metabolites.  And keep in mind that any biproducts of synthesis don't need to make it into the brain to have these effects, they only need to compete with MDMA for enzymes in the gut.
> 
> Now, if this theory is true, it may be that pure MDMA is actually less "enjoyable" than MDMA with some enzyme substrates/inhibitors thrown in.  In which case, maybe you need a tiny dose of dextromethorphan or something a few hours before the MDMA to recover the magic of yesteryear's MDMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> schmid2016 mdma cyp2d6.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drive.google.com



Hey man appreciate you stopping in 

Explain how “MDMA breaks red blood cells to inflate oxytocin counts” as that sounds like some inaccurate information to me.

And for those that do believe the data  (to be fair if your statement was true other researchers would be altering the way they study oxytocin) here’s a piece that shows Prolactin isn’t alone in making individuals want to “cuddle puddle.”

“and both exogenous OT (oxytocin) and MDMA increase “adjacent lying”, thought to be indicative of prosocial behavior (Ramos et al., 2013)”

So it seems oxytocin can also make you wanna lay next to and trust other individuals.

Idk the absolute trust of MDMA just screams oxytocin and the blood levels which peak at 90-120min correlate perfectly with the pro-social/trusting aspect of the experience.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

thegreenhand said:


> Well yes what the serotonin/5HT transport does is remove serotonin/5HT from the synaptic cleft and place the neurotransmitter back into vesicles in the presynaptic cell’s axon. If this ran in reverse it would lead to serotonin release from the presynaptic cell which as you said is the primary action. We’re saying the same thing it looks like.
> 
> I think this is promising and according to the study about synthesis impurities the two candidates would be:
> 
> 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine
> 
> N-formyl- 1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine
> 
> Would any chemistry geeks in here know how hard these would be to assay?



The strange thing about these impurities is they are formed in the Leuckart synthesis I believe.  Leuckart was king during the 90’s up until early 2000’s it was switched and I don’t think anyone feels the MDMA back then was lackluster.

Leuckart also has the product which seems to most reliably produce positive effects.  When reading the Hive there’s chemists in there which claim the Leuckart was the reason the old 90’s product was next level good even though it wasn’t all that pure relative to today.

I personally don’t think those two impurities are the problem.  What that study DOES show us is that out of 12 somewhat randomly selected impurities found in MDMA (of which there are 100’s/1000’s) 2 of them had significant psychoactive properties.

This means if researchers took the time to study others I can guarantee we’d find our problem.

-GC


----------



## thegreenhand

indigoaura said:


> Hi @MBaggott, welcome! Thanks for contributing.
> 
> I do not recall a lot of discussion of the liver over the last 212 pages.
> 
> I have seen someone on MDMA have a seizure due to interference at the CYP2D6 level with a prescription drug they were taking at the same time. So, I certainly believe that CYP2D6 is a significant factor in how MDMA is processed/felt.
> 
> If I am understanding you right, you are suggesting that old MDMA may have had byproducts that competed with CYP2D6 and thus allowed greater amounts of MDMA into the bloodstream? Couldn't the same effect be achieved by raising the dose of MDMA?
> 
> There have been some more recent studies of the CYP2D6 human mutants that show that the genetic mutations have no notable effect on MDMA metabolism. I would have to look for those articles as I don't have the link ready. I do recall someone sharing it waaaay back in the thread.
> 
> We've gone back and forth a lot in the thread about whether it is possible the old MDMA had active contaminants that improved the roll. However, if that was the case it would mean that pure MDMA was not "magical" in the sense that we are discussing. That is hard to believe, though. Surely Shulgin's synthesis was relatively pure?


Perhaps boofing some mehDMA would allow for a comparison


----------



## thegreenhand

G_Chem said:


> The strange thing about these impurities is they are formed in the Leuckart synthesis I believe.  Leuckart was king during the 90’s up until early 2000’s it was switched and I don’t think anyone feels the MDMA back then was lackluster.
> 
> Leuckart also has the product which seems to most reliably produce positive effects.  When reading the Hive there’s chemists in there which claim the Leuckart was the reason the old 90’s product was next level good even though it wasn’t all that pure relative to today.
> 
> I personally don’t think those two impurities are the problem.  What that study DOES show us is that out of 12 somewhat randomly selected impurities found in MDMA (of which there are 100’s/1000’s) 2 of them had significant psychoactive properties.
> 
> This means if researchers took the time to study others I can guarantee we’d find our problem.
> 
> -GC


Ya know what you’re probably right. We may be stuck waiting awhile for academia to come around on this particular problem


----------



## psy997

thegreenhand said:


> Perhaps boofing some mehDMA would allow for a comparison



Plugging has been done and seemingly has no effect on MehDMA. It's still just as Meh.


----------



## indigoaura

@MBaggott , so theoretically, something like that grapefruit Rave gum could have the CYP2D6 effects you think may be beneficial? 

My point in bringing up Shulgin is that he definitely experienced the magic of MDMA. This shit that I keep getting is not magical, by any stretch of the imagination. I think it would have been an entry in Pikhal that did not warrant much additional exploration. 

I still think that the blocking of SERT/DAT/NET transporters would explain a lot of what we are noticing. It would also explain the variation in "meh" experiences based on which transporters were being blocked and to what extent. In the Pifl C. article it is stated that, "If added 4 min before MDMA to the superfusion buffer, 12 and 13 concentration-dependently suppressed the release induced by 3 uM MDMA in NET-, SERT-, and DAT-expressing cells" (p. 350). Only 100 uM of compound 12 "suppressed MDMA-induced release mediated by the DAT to levels slightly beneath basal efflux" (p. 350).

In other words, very small amounts of these compounds were having an extreme impact.


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> The strange thing about these impurities is they are formed in the Leuckart synthesis I believe.  Leuckart was king during the 90’s up until early 2000’s it was switched and I don’t think anyone feels the MDMA back then was lackluster.
> 
> Leuckart also has the product which seems to most reliably produce positive effects.  When reading the Hive there’s chemists in there which claim the Leuckart was the reason the old 90’s product was next level good even though it wasn’t all that pure relative to today.
> 
> I personally don’t think those two impurities are the problem.  What that study DOES show us is that out of 12 somewhat randomly selected impurities found in MDMA (of which there are 100’s/1000’s) 2 of them had significant psychoactive properties.
> 
> This means if researchers took the time to study others I can guarantee we’d find our problem.
> 
> -GC


If an impurity is the culprit then it would mean it's a route specific problem and like I said earlier
once we determine whether meh is
made via one specific method vs multiple methods we can prove/disprove the cause being
an impurity.quickest way to do that
is test multiple samples of meh to see how it was made.


----------



## indigoaura

> I personally don’t think those two impurities are the problem. What that study DOES show us is that out of 12 somewhat randomly selected impurities found in MDMA (of which there are 100’s/1000’s) 2 of them had significant psychoactive properties.



I agree with this. I think one (several) of the newer synthesis methods have produced an impurity that is doing something similar. It is blocking transporter uptake, probably on SERT and DAT transporters. They did clarify at one point in the article that some of these impurities were coming about due to a backdoor method of making a precursor. I will try to find the quote.

For that matter, the impurity may already be present in some kind of mass produced precursor being sold in bulk. Anyone using that precursor is getting the impurity which is making it into the MDMA.

As for the whole boofing thing... not opposed to trying it, simply to see if my stomach issues would respond differently to a different ROA. But, I doubt it is going to have an impact.


----------



## indigoaura

@draculic acid69 

While some impurities are route specific, others may appear in multiple synthesis routes. This paper goes into a variety of impurities related to synthesis routes: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.006

And, there are so many subtleties in the routes of synthesis...one person's slight variation may be responsible for an impurity that is not present in a properly performed synthesis otherwise.

I don't know if determining the synthesis route matters as much as determining WHAT the impurities are. 

Test multiple samples of "meh" and see if they contain the same impurities.


----------



## MBaggott

Overall, I don't want to be too specific in my theory. It may not be cyp2d6, although it's a leading candidate. My reference to the 2d6 data is just a demonstration in principle that metabolic interactions can make MDMA effects different. And I think many, if not most, contaminants could compete with MDMA for gut and liver enzymes.  The enzymes dealing with the 3,4-methylenedioxy bridge, for example, are likely pretty agnostic to the weird incorrect synthesis stuff on the other side of the molecule.

@indigoaura Don't you think those contaminant concentrations are unreasonably high. Consider that MDMA itself is only at low micromolar concentrations, is it really reasonable to think the contaminants would be higher concentrations than the drug? I don't think it's that likely. As the contaminants are initially lower in the ingested drug, you'd need the contaminants to get actively absorbed or be partitioned into the brain at a much higher brain:blood ratio than MDMA. This is why a pk not pd interaction seems more likely to me.

@G_Chem The general oxytocin problem I describe is pretty well established in the literature. Antibodies used for immunoassay can bind to other proteins and peptides in plasma. This was made clear when oxytocin measured without extraction turned out to be 10–100 fold higher than in extracted samples and extracted vs unextracted levels shown to be uncorrelated. You can find a number of papers on this problem. The specific issues of MDMA aren't as clearly discussed, but you can, for example, read de Wit lab MDMA papers where they mention "outliers ... likely ... because of blood sampling issues resulting in hemolysis". Basically, the insides of red blood cells have things the antibody will stick to. And, if you think about it, vasoconstriction during peak MDMA effects will be correlated with hemolysis, which will be correlated with apparent oxytocin. On the other hand, I do believe the animal studies since they just sacrifice the whole animal to measure oxytocin, which avoids this differential vasoconstriction-induced hemolysis problem.


----------



## indigoaura

@MBaggott Would the amounts matter as much as the affinity for the receptor? Wouldn't the compound with the greater affinity bind to the receptor, even if it is the smaller amount? Also, wouldn't absorption times be a major factor? If the impurity was absorbed quicker and had a higher affinity for the receptor, the MDMA may possibly bind to other receptors instead of the blocked receptor (theoretically). 

Assuming it is a metabolic issue due to impurities, how could that be addressed?


----------



## MBaggott

@G_Chem To expand on my previous comments: I think the rat data are solid and I think oxytocin release plays a role in MDMA effects. I question if oxytocin alone, assuming we infused it into the brain, would imitate the MDMA state. For example, the stimulant-like positive mood is also important and does not have a serotonergic/oxytonergic mechanism.

@indigoaura Affinity and concentration both matter. Absorption times should matter less, as the ligands are binding and dissociating from the binding site at set rates; getting there first shouldn't guarantee blockade.

I would like to see a study detecting contaminants in the blood after oral administration of underground MDMA before I would believe they make it through first pass metabolism.


----------



## indigoaura

@MBaggott As a researcher, what do you feel is primarily responsible for "ideal" MDMA effects? When I imagine an ideal MDMA experience, I imagine pro-social behaviors, loss of  inhibition, feelings of connection/care/love/euphoria, enhanced sexual drive/feelings (if you are with a person you are attracted to), enhanced tactile sensations, enhanced sound, slight time dilation. Do you feel those are primarily serotonin /dopamine/norepinephrine/oxytocin/prolactin related? All of the above?

What do you personally make of products that do not produce those effects even in new users? Products that appear to be MDMA to GCMS, with no eye dilation at 200 mg, where the user simply sits still and stares, with no urge to talk/connect/touch?


----------



## G_Chem

MBaggott said:


> @G_Chem To expand on my previous comments: I think the rat data are solid and I think oxytocin release plays a role in MDMA effects. I question if oxytocin alone, assuming we infused it into the brain, would imitate the MDMA state. For example, the stimulant-like positive mood is also important and does not have a serotonergic/oxytonergic mechanism.
> 
> @indigoaura Affinity and concentration both matter. Absorption times should matter less, as the ligands are binding and dissociating from the binding site at set rates; getting there first shouldn't guarantee blockade.
> 
> I would like to see a study detecting contaminants in the blood after oral administration of underground MDMA before I would believe they make it through first pass metabolism.



Thank you for the clarification.

Oxytocin is definitely not the main/only component to MDMA.  As I’ve said, we as humans have this insatiable urge to get everything as simplified as possible.

Just like I had a problem with that German researcher who wants to say it’s all Prolactin.  MDMA, like other great drugs, is a culmination of many pharmacological factors.

MDMA is oxytocin, it’s prolactin, serotonin, dopamine, NE release, vasopressin, and more that I’m unaware of.. As we see with many other empathogens that if some of these parts are missing the experience is incomplete.

-GC


----------



## MBaggott

indigoaura said:


> @MBaggott As a researcher, what do you feel is primarily responsible for "ideal" MDMA effects? .... Do you feel those are primarily serotonin /dopamine/norepinephrine/oxytocin/prolactin related? All of the above?



I believe all but prolactin are important. I don't think there's enough evidence on prolactin one way or another.



indigoaura said:


> What do you personally make of products that do not produce those effects even in new users? Products that appear to be MDMA to GCMS, with no eye dilation at 200 mg, where the user simply sits still and stares, with no urge to talk/connect/touch?



I haven't encountered this personally, so I don't have a robust theory.  

I do think that the core MDMA effect is something more like authenticity or decreased neuroticism than the things we normally list. I think this core effect frees, or disinhibits, people, which facilitates sociability and sensory pleasures and the things we commonly associate with MDMA. But it's also possible to be anxious (this is actually common) or even angry on MDMA. Maybe people can also be authentically and calmly grounded without extraversion and it just seems anomalous to observers.  



G_Chem said:


> MDMA is oxytocin, it’s prolactin, serotonin, dopamine, NE release, vasopressin, and more that I’m unaware of.. As we see with many other empathogens that if some of these parts are missing the experience is incomplete.



Yes. An interesting question for me is which parts are needed for therapeutic effects vs recreational effects and does it vary for different people.


----------



## indigoaura

"I haven't encountered this personally, so I don't have a robust theory." Well, if you are quarantined and in need of some light reading, there are 213 pages here that span several years and describe the phenomenon in somewhat excessive detail... 

I like how you compared the core state to authenticity. There is an honesty to the state that is lacking from many other altered states. I recall feeling as though I had stepped into reality or into an eternal mode of self that was inaccessible typically. 

"An interesting question for me is which parts are needed for therapeutic effects vs recreational effects and does it vary for different people."

One concern I have is that as MDMA moves into mainstream therapeutic settings, that efforts will be made to strip it of every quality except for that which benefits the therapeutic goal; that the whole of that honest/authentic experience may be blunted. Eventually, it will become an elite experience and the value of the individual experience outside of therapy will not be acknowledged.


----------



## fasterfb

MBaggott said:


> I'd more readily believe contaminants alter metabolism. There must be many that are substrates for cyp2d6 and other enzymes. A reason I think altered metabolism could strongly affect the roll is because we know MDMA hits people who lack cyp2d6 differently from normal metabolizers. You can see this in Figure 2 of Schmidt et al 2016 (link below). Even though cyp2d6 gets inhibited by MDMA, it likely eats up a few tens of mg of MDMA first. Without any 2d6, you get a faster peak and a different ratio of MDMA to crappy physiologically active metabolites.  And keep in mind that any biproducts of synthesis don't need to make it into the brain to have these effects, they only need to compete with MDMA for enzymes in the gut.
> 
> Now, if this theory is true, it may be that pure MDMA is actually less "enjoyable" than MDMA with some enzyme substrates/inhibitors thrown in.  In which case, maybe you need a tiny dose of dextromethorphan or something a few hours before the MDMA to recover the magic of yesteryear's MDMA.





indigoaura said:


> @MBaggott , so theoretically, something like that grapefruit Rave gum could have the CYP2D6 effects you think may be beneficial?



@MBaggott Welcome, and thank you for your posts! 

Anectodally, I have found grapefruit juice to significantly smooth out and enhance my roll. Apparently, it also slows down/stops the conversion of MDMA into the more neuro-toxic MDA.

@indigoaura 

My rave gum has arrived, and I will be giving it a try next week instead of just the grapefruit juice. I'll let you know how it goes!
P.S. I am on no other medications that would be potentiated by CYP2D6 inhibition, so not worried about bad reactions/seizures.


----------



## MBaggott

indigoaura said:


> One concern I have is that as MDMA moves into mainstream therapeutic settings, that efforts will be made to strip it of every quality except for that which benefits the therapeutic goal; that the whole of that honest/authentic experience may be blunted. Eventually, it will become an elite experience and the value of the individual experience outside of therapy will not be acknowledged.


I agree this is something to keep an eye on. I think the intentions of people at MAPS lean in the opposite direction: to democratize access and support individual flourishing. But it will take work to ensure psychedelics transform healthcare instead of healthcare transforming psychedelics.

@fasterfb Thanks for the welcome! I'm skeptical that MDA contributes meaningfully to the toxicity of MDMA, but there could certainly be other mechanisms for grapefruit juice smoothing your roll. If it works for you, great!


----------



## G_Chem

MBaggott said:


> I agree this is something to keep an eye on. I think the intentions of people at MAPS lean in the opposite direction: to democratize access and support individual flourishing. But it will take work to ensure psychedelics transform healthcare instead of healthcare transforming psychedelics.
> 
> @fasterfb Thanks for the welcome! I'm skeptical that MDA contributes meaningfully to the toxicity of MDMA, but there could certainly be other mechanisms for grapefruit juice smoothing your roll. If it works for you, great!



I agree on your assessment of the MDA metabolite and toxicity.  It’s sad that a really amazing substance has kind of been tainted because someone did poor research and posted it on Reddit.

GFJ also contains antioxidants that I assume do a lot more than enzyme inhibition.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@MBaggott The article you posted regarding the liver has me thinking.

In my early years of ecstasy use, I used a traditional oral contraceptive pill. It was a mix of ethinyl estradiol and norethindrone acetate. Around 2005/2006 I switched to an Indian birth control that is a selective estrogen re-uptake modulator (ormeloxifene). 

The change in birth control occurred roughly around the same time my change in ecstasy occurred. Unfortunately, I did not keep detailed notes at that time, so I don't have anything I can reference. 

Is it possible that metabolic changes resulted from this change that could have drastically altered the way my body processed (and was impacted by) MDMA?

This would not explain all my friends and my partner who also note the same changes in the roll, so I doubt this is the answer to the question. It definitely makes me wonder though.


----------



## SunriseChampion

If the quality of the experience were influenced by metabolic enzymes, would the route of administration have an effect?


----------



## mooka

According to this thread :  https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=154716 the only way to really understand what the problem is is to recrystallise multiple times mehdma until a very pure product is obtained, bio-assay it and analysing the remaining liquors to identify the synth by-products.

I mean professional chemists in the above thread agree that purity is the issue, so why don't we stop talking and try with an actual scientific method, if we don't try first we can keep adding theories on theories without excluding any. 
I wish I could do this test myself but due to my personal circumstances i really can't.
That's what we should use


----------



## G_Chem

That picture is of ultra pure hydrated polymorph of MDMA.  I’ve honestly never seen one so big.  Whoever did that takes ALOT of pride in their work. The fact it’s exactly an Oz makes it even more impressive.

Just read that whole thread.  First off I find it odd how much vash/pastors typing changed from here to there.  He’s able to actually construct sentences. There are discrepancies though same as in here.

Unfortunately that forum is full of elitist asshats.

-GC


----------



## mooka

first post in that forum is written by Indigo and posted by me, I gave Vash access to my account because registrations are closed and I'm not that good neither in English language or chemistry.  
the fact that someone in that forum is able to create such a beauty , well they deserve at least our attention.


G_Chem said:


> Unfortunately that forum is full of elitist asshats.


totally agree with you, but everyone said the same: purify the product then check what's wrong.


----------



## indigoaura

@mooka 

I totally agree that we need to "purify the product then check what's wrong."

That is why it was so disappointing and frustrating when Vash's associate lost the separated impurities that needed to be tested. 

However, Vash and others have suggested that re-crystallization is not going to be enough to separate the impurities without running a column. 

Which is why I am asking if anyone here can walk me through that process step by step. I have product here that has been acetone washed and re-crystallized and still is not right. Tell me what to do with it. The few instructions I have seen have started with a tremendous amount of product. I am never going to have that much product. I don't operate like that. How can I run a column on a small amount of product?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> That picture is of ultra pure hydrated polymorph of MDMA.  I’ve honestly never seen one so big.  Whoever did that takes ALOT of pride in their work. The fact it’s exactly an Oz makes it even more impressive.
> 
> Just read that whole thread.  First off I find it odd how much vash/pastors typing changed from here to there.  He’s able to actually construct sentences. There are discrepancies though same as in here.
> 
> Unfortunately that forum is full of elitist asshats.
> 
> -GC



What, that's an MDMA crystal? Fuck me, that's gorgeous...


But is that even possible?

I'm willing to accept a large and perfect crystal can be formed by an expert chemist, but to have it weigh in at exactly 28g is either purely coincidence, or fake.


----------



## mooka

indigoaura said:


> @mooka
> 
> I totally agree that we need to "purify the product then check what's wrong."
> 
> That is why it was so disappointing and frustrating when Vash's associate lost the separated impurities that needed to be tested.
> 
> However, Vash and others have suggested that re-crystallization is not going to be enough to separate the impurities without running a column.
> 
> Which is why I am asking if anyone here can walk me through that process step by step. I have product here that has been acetone washed and re-crystallized and still is not right. Tell me what to do with it. The few instructions I have seen have started with a tremendous amount of product. I am never going to have that much product. I don't operate like that. How can I run a column on a small amount of product?


recrystallise more times, at least 4 or 5, using lab grade IPA.

Recrystallization is a laboratory technique used to purify solids based on their different solubilities. A small amount of solvent is added to a flask containing an impure solid. The contents of the flask are heated until the solid dissolves. Next, the solution is cooled. The more pure solid precipitates, leaving impurities dissolved in the solvent. Vacuum filtration is used to isolate the crystals. The waste solution is discarded.
*Summary of Recrystallization Steps*

Add a small quantity of appropriate solvent to an impure solid.
Apply heat to dissolve the solid.
Cool the solution to crystallize the product.
Use vacuum filtration to isolate and dry the purified solid.
Let's take a look at the details of the recrystallization process.

*Add the Solvent*
Choose a solvent such that the impure compound has poor solubility at low temperatures, yet is completely soluble at higher temperatures. The point is to fully dissolve the impure substance when it is heated, yet have it crash out of solution upon cooling. Add as small a quantity as possible to fully dissolve the sample. It's better to add too little solvent than too much. More solvent can be added during the heating process, if necessary.


*Heat the Suspension*
After the solvent has been added to the impure solid, heat the suspension to fully dissolve the sample. Usually, a hot water bath or steam bath is used, since these are gentle, controlled heat sources. A hot plate or gas burner is used in some situations.
Once the sample is dissolved, the solution is cooled to force crystallization of the desired compound.


*Cool the Solution for Recrystallization*
Slower cooling may lead to a higher purity product, so it's common practice to allow the solution to cool to room temperature before setting the flask in an ice bath or refrigerator.
Crystals usually begin forming on the bottom of the flask. It's possible to aid crystallization by scratching the flask with a glass rod at the air-solvent junction (assuming you are willing to purposely scratch your glassware). The scratch increases the glass surface area, providing a roughened surface on which the solid can crystallize. Another technique is to 'seed' the solution by adding a small crystal of the desired pure solid to the cooled solution. Be sure the solution is cool, or else the crystal could dissolve. If no crystals fall out of solution, it's possible too much solvent was used. Allow some of the solvent to evaporate. If crystals do not spontaneously form, reheat/cool the solution.
Once crystals have formed, it's time to separate them from the solution.


*Filter and Dry the Product*
Crystals of purified solid are isolated by filtration. This is usually done with vacuum filtration, sometimes washing the purified solid with chilled solvent. If you wash the product, be sure the solvent is cold, or else you run the risk of dissolving some of the sample.
The product may now be dried. Aspiring the product via vacuum filtration should remove much of the solvent. Open-air drying may be used as well. In some cases, the recrystallization may be repeated to further purify the sample.

a video here:


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@vecktor gave a run down of recrystallisation earlier in this thread.  Summary was: a very powerful, but non-trivial technique with plenty of ways of messing it up.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Which is why I am asking if anyone here can walk me through that process step by step.


Are all your questions answered after watching the YouTube videos which pop up when you search it for "Column Chromatography" ?

These videos do not show what to do with non-colored impurities but I think they would show up under UV. What do you think @Vector ?


----------



## G_Chem

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> What, that's an MDMA crystal? Fuck me, that's gorgeous...
> 
> 
> But is that even possible?
> 
> I'm willing to accept a large and perfect crystal can be formed by an expert chemist, but to have it weigh in at exactly 28g is either purely coincidence, or fake.



I almost didn’t believe it myself and somewhat wonder if the scale numbers were altered.  That said, I’m fairly certain of it being hydrated MDMA.

I’ve seen pics online of hydrated polymorph MDMA around 10g crystals so any size is possible I assume with enough product and the right technique.

Here’s another pic of different hydrated MDMA batch for comparison.  Notice the sloped edges.



			https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT_uP2crlxFcvrz5tKy6wLTxDU2rY9bBtK0kr9BYFUJ5YWRDNBb&usqp=CAU
		


-GC


----------



## mooka

how would you make hydrated mdma? just mixing ipa with little water as solvent?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> That picture is of ultra pure hydrated polymorph of MDMA.  I’ve honestly never seen one so big.  Whoever did that takes ALOT of pride in their work. The fact it’s exactly an Oz makes it even more impressive.
> 
> Just read that whole thread.  First off I find it odd how much vash/pastors typing changed from here to there.  He’s able to actually construct sentences. There are discrepancies though same as in here.
> 
> Unfortunately that forum is full of elitist asshats.
> 
> -GC


Those elitelists on sciencemadness crack me up man cause half those idiots are from nz and pretend to be chemists while the other part of the forum is engaged in trading selling/buying and sourcing of shelcude 1 precursors for New Zealand and australia. Then have the audacity to flame and call people junkies.  A quick glimpse and you see somebody in NZ trying to get supplies for what is probably a tikhal cook or DMT synthesis. Though its impossible to tell what substance a crystal is by looking it is a beautiful crystal. Im not sure who took over the shulgin lab but he did have some people he taught and was close to you before he passed to continue on his research. If only Sasha was still alive he would give a straight answer.


----------



## indigoaura

Just now getting around to reading this full article: https://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory



> “Thanks, good to know. But we have an issue with purity,” I say. “We noted some unusual impurities that have reduced our yield, so we were hoping we might be able to get a reduction in price.”



Man, it does seem like such an unusual "coincidence" that the issues people are noting coincided with such a significant change in production methodology.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Just now getting around to reading this full article: https://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory
> 
> 
> 
> Man, it does seem like such an unusual "coincidence" that the issues people are noting coincided with such a significant change in production methodology.


PMK has been used since very early 2000's and had become the mainstream precouser by 2003. It doesn't matter what the first one is as it always lead to the ketone to which mdma is made from its the process after that which affects the final product.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> Just now getting around to reading this full article: https://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory
> 
> 
> 
> Man, it does seem like such an unusual "coincidence" that the issues people are noting coincided with such a significant change in production methodology.



The guy speaking is a journalist, not a chemist. He's just making up problems as an easy out from the meeting. He talks to an actual MDMA chemist in the article who seems to have no problems with the product they are producing using PMK-glycidate.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> I almost didn’t believe it myself and somewhat wonder if the scale numbers were altered.  That said, I’m fairly certain of it being hydrated MDMA.
> 
> I’ve seen pics online of hydrated polymorph MDMA around 10g crystals so any size is possible I assume with enough product and the right technique.
> 
> Here’s another pic of different hydrated MDMA batch for comparison.  Notice the sloped edges.
> 
> 
> 
> https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT_uP2crlxFcvrz5tKy6wLTxDU2rY9bBtK0kr9BYFUJ5YWRDNBb&usqp=CAU
> 
> 
> 
> -GC



At least the one you linked to looks like a real crystal, the one on the scales looks too perfect - like a lump of ice fresh out of a mould...


----------



## draculic acid69

TripSitterNZ said:


> Those elitelists on sciencemadness crack me up man cause half those idiots are from nz and pretend to be chemists while the other part of the forum is engaged in trading selling/buying and sourcing of shelcude 1 precursors for New Zealand and australia. Then have the audacity to flame and call people junkies.  A quick glimpse and you see somebody in NZ trying to get supplies for what is probably a tikhal cook or DMT synthesis. Though its impossible to tell what substance a crystal is by looking it is a beautiful crystal. Im not sure who took over the shulgin lab but he did have some people he taught and was close to you before he passed to continue on his research. If only Sasha was still alive he would give a straight answer.


Science madness isn't the hive dude.
U can't just rockup and ask about clearly illegal schedule 1 drug chemistry.scimadness is a mix of all sorts of chemistry.drugs aren't really looked down on there except by the few stuffy brainwashed stiffs who just happen to also be amateur chemists.a lot of hive members went there but there's a way to talk about these things and the thread on this topic was pretty on the edge of what's considered etiquette there.The rest of the members just want to keep the site off the radar due to the way the hive ended (with a TV exposé and legal implications) and bcoz amateur chemistry has enough legal problems
and restrictions that come with it that opening the possibility of being associated with drug chemistry as well is going to cause them more problems.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

draculic acid69 said:


> Science madness isn't the hive dude.
> U can't just rockup and ask about clearly illegal schedule 1 drug chemistry.scimadness is a mix of all sorts of chemistry.drugs aren't really looked down on there except by the few stuffy brainwashed stiffs who just happen to also be amateur chemists.a lot of hive members went there but there's a way to talk about these things and the thread on this topic was pretty on the edge of what's considered etiquette there.The rest of the members just want to keep the site off the radar due to the way the hive ended (with a TV exposé and legal implications) and bcoz amateur chemistry has enough legal problems
> and restrictions that come with it that opening the possibility of being associated with drug chemistry as well is going to cause them more problems.


yet there are many posts asking to trade illegal shecdule 1 precursors or ways to obtain them lmao. Its a joke fourm of idiots from australia and NZ pretending to do chemistry without going to a university


----------



## indigoaura

> This background helps me understand why the chemistry of MDMA, a well-known molecule first developed in 1912 and patented by Merck in 1914, is not exact, not yet fully known, and still requires detailed, stringent analyses and controls.











						The Commercial Chemistry of MDMA: From Research to Patient Access - Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies - MAPS
					

Written by Heather Clouting, M.Sc. MAPS Bulletin Spring 2020: Vol. 30, No. 1 Download this article. Nearly 20 years ago, during our final year of university while studying for our Bachelor’s in chemistry, I thought that two fellow students and I were rebels for suggesting that our organic...




					maps.org
				




Very, VERY interesting read that gives insight into the MAPS chemistry process for manufacturing MDMA.

Check out the graphic towards the bottom of the article. "However, even with this appropriately thorough approach from small-scale to large-scale development, the design space that was defined for Stage 2 of the reaction was shown to not completely predict the outcome." Are they admitting that even with their advanced protocols/science they were having a difficult time with synthesis?



> Another significant lesson from the last 12 months of API development work was the discovery of two new polymorphic forms of MDMA, never seen previously in the literature. A polymorph refers to a well-defined crystalline structure, where the molecules are attached to each other in a repeatable pattern. A good example of this is C6 (carbon). Carbon will bond to itself six times to form the commonly known “benzene ring” molecule. However, the way these C6 molecules bond to each other can take different crystalline or polymorphic forms, such as diamond vs graphite. Both polymorphs are the same molecule—but one, diamond, is the hardest substance known and the other, graphite, one of the softest. This is an extreme example, but clearly shows why it is so important to understand the chemistry of any molecule that is being developed for human use.



As MAPS goes through their process, the primary question of this thread may end up answered.


----------



## indigoaura

Polymorphism: The Phenomenon Affecting the Performance   of Drugs
					

Polymorphism is the ability of solid materials to exist in two or more crystalline forms with different arrangements or conformations of the constituents in the crystal lattice.




					symbiosisonlinepublishing.com
				






> Polymorphic studies are important as a particular polymorph can be responsible for a particular property which might not be exhibited by any other form.


----------



## popsweat

Some more clear crystal porn









						linx - umxys3dk.jpeg
					






					linx.li


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Polymorphic studies are important as a particular polymorph can be responsible for a particular property which might not be exhibited by any other form.


Yeah, but once you dissolve the MDMA salt powder then all crystalline polymorphic differences go out the window, don't they ?


----------



## draculic acid69

TripSitterNZ said:


> yet there are many posts asking to trade illegal shecdule 1 precursors or ways to obtain them lmao. Its a joke fourm of idiots from australia and NZ pretending to do chemistry without going to a university


Yeah ppl trade chems even restricted ones not everyone is using them for drugs.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

draculic acid69 said:


> Yeah ppl trade chems even restricted ones not everyone is using them for drugs.its really a good site.


I know people who used it for sourcing precursors for making mdma in NZ and now they are sitting inside jail. LE watch that site and undercovers setup meetings there. If people want to learn chemistry and are serious about it they go to university not post on the internet and go around in a circle with the most basic questions


----------



## draculic acid69

TripSitterNZ said:


> I know people who used it for sourcing precursors for making mdma in NZ and now they are sitting inside jail. LE watch that site and undercovers setup meetings there. If people want to learn chemistry and are serious about it they go to university not post on the internet and go around in a circle with the most basic questions


Undercover cops setup meetings there huh? I think Ur full of shit.


----------



## draculic acid69

The reason they don't openly tolerate drug synthesis and discussion is bcoz they don't want things like law enforcement monitoring it and targeting ppl.like I said it's not the hive


----------



## draculic acid69

Reddit has threads on drug chemistry where u can openly talk about this stuff without it being against forum guidelines. try there.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

So I haven't read thru this whole thread, but I read the first post and felt compelled to comment.

I came up in Chicago around 2004 poppin my first bean. Green/Red Strawberries, Blue/Green Xmas Trees, Orange Omegas etc...all fire until like 2006 when meth started getting cut. So you'd get a meth bomb 20% occasion (if you didn't test/use pillreports). Then the mint man came and crushed the buildings for years. So about 2013 I took a long break. Fast forward to last year, I felt comfortable with myself to roll again. I'm in Denver now, which is more of a molly area than pressed pills. Regardless, I tried out the Orange Teslas which have all MDMA Medium-High ratings on PR. Same with Pink/Red CP Supremes. You roll for maybe 20 minutes, then get the physical effects, but no love. These of course all tested straight to black, and have been verified by ecstacy data. When you try the molly, it again, goes straight to black and sometime fizzes on the tester. But if you take it there's no love. You just feel 'monged out' with a heavy body load. I wouldn't even advise having sex on these. So, I 100% agree with OP's sentiment. The best guess I can make is, during the time when the DW really popped up, and the US was getting loads of fire fire MDMA pills...purple party flocks, those guys....some of our friends overseas saw how easy it was to import rolls now....and maybe changed their production procedure? IDK. But it seems the influx of 200mg + MDMA pills came right around the time pills started to suck. Just my thoughts.

I did recently score 5 MDA Black Armani's from the TX crew that started with the dragonflys, fingers crossed I can actually roll again!


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

New MAPS article "The Commercial Chemistry of MDMA: From Research to Patient Access" about problems making a pure product and MDMA polymorphism. Maybe of interst to someone who understands more about chemistry than I do.  https://maps.org/news/bulletin/arti...istry-of-mdma-from-research-to-patient-access


----------



## G_Chem

mrsmokeweed said:


> So I haven't read thru this whole thread, but I read the first post and felt compelled to comment.
> 
> I came up in Chicago around 2004 poppin my first bean. Green/Red Strawberries, Blue/Green Xmas Trees, Orange Omegas etc...all fire until like 2006 when meth started getting cut. So you'd get a meth bomb 20% occasion (if you didn't test/use pillreports). Then the mint man came and crushed the buildings for years. So about 2013 I took a long break. Fast forward to last year, I felt comfortable with myself to roll again. I'm in Denver now, which is more of a molly area than pressed pills. Regardless, I tried out the Orange Teslas which have all MDMA Medium-High ratings on PR. Same with Pink/Red CP Supremes. You roll for maybe 20 minutes, then get the physical effects, but no love. These of course all tested straight to black, and have been verified by ecstacy data. When you try the molly, it again, goes straight to black and sometime fizzes on the tester. But if you take it there's no love. You just feel 'monged out' with a heavy body load. I wouldn't even advise having sex on these. So, I 100% agree with OP's sentiment. The best guess I can make is, during the time when the DW really popped up, and the US was getting loads of fire fire MDMA pills...purple party flocks, those guys....some of our friends overseas saw how easy it was to import rolls now....and maybe changed their production procedure? IDK. But it seems the influx of 200mg + MDMA pills came right around the time pills started to suck. Just my thoughts.
> 
> I did recently score 5 MDA Black Armani's from the TX crew that started with the dragonflys, fingers crossed I can actually roll again!



You and me lived similar times  the mints will forever be the best pills I’ve ever taken, ever.... Those days.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@PsychedelicSummer I just posted the same article. There is some very interesting info in there. 

@mrsmokeweed You said, "You just feel 'monged out' with a heavy body load." Yeah, I agree. Back in the early 00s we called those types of pills "mongy," and everyone agreed it was not the ideal kind of pill to end up with.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

G_Chem said:


> You and me lived similar times  the mints will forever be the best pills I’ve ever taken, ever.... Those days.
> 
> -GC


Ah man! You a midwest cat? My two favorites were Yellow Asterisk and the Blue A's...really any of the Blue's....they were mostly MDA. My favorite! The pink strawberries of 2004/5 will forever be my 'best pill ever'...ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

@indigoaura I'm not sure where it derived from, but mongy is really the best way I can describe em! I think it's because there's SO MUCH MDMA in 'em they overwhelm you and you'd rather sit than dance. I've not tried any of the new euro's except the Supremes/Tesla's, and I only full dropped. 

Also if y'all are bored there's a vice documentary called High Society about MDMA in europe. They show these two kids (who were making like 1500 pills a day) literally mixing/breaking up 3/4 grams of MDMA and 8 grams of crystaline (both which they got from dirty ass plastic containers) with a shitty old hammer.......then right into the press. What a world.


----------



## psy997

mrsmokeweed said:


> I think it's because there's SO MUCH MDMA in 'em they overwhelm you and you'd rather sit than dance



I wish. Unfortunately my experience is dosing that kind of stuff lower doesn't help. Hence, this thread.


----------



## MBaggott

indigoaura said:


> Are they admitting that even with their advanced protocols/science they were having a difficult time with synthesis?
> ...
> As MAPS goes through their process, the primary question of this thread may end up answered.


My read is that MAPS has hired a contract company to manufacture MDMA on a large scale and this article is reporting on work that company is doing to get high consistent yields in their factory.  As you may recall, so far, essentially all FDA-supervised research giving people MDMA within the US has used a batch that Dave Nichols made. But MAPS is about to need much larger amounts, making this new manufacturing process necessary.

Forms that the dry molecule can take should be irrelevant to the effects of the drug once it is dissolved in the body.


----------



## 7ate9

IME the first few rolls with MDMA were always the best ones which produced a lovely soft afterglow that can last at least 24 hours. Unfortunately, this doesn't last and the more i've done it; the worse the come-down I've experienced once it wears off.
Also the amount of MDMA that's taken would dictate a lot of what kind of high would be experienced. For example, if I was to take anywhere between 50-80mg; I would get that lovey euphoria radiating through my body without the amphetamine-like speediness and anxiety that's common with doses upwards of 100-150mg.

A great trick I found was to dose 1:2 or 3:4 of what you took earlier once that euphoria was achieved so that as it starts to wear off, it will soon be replaced by the dose you've just taken. This can be repeated as often as you like, but be wary as the more you do it; the more undesirable side effects will occur.

It's also worth pointing out how strong some E-pills are in Europe today, some of which have been found to contain upwards of 200mg of MDMA, which is enough to floor your most seasoned tripper and potentially put a teenager in hospital or worse. For any first timers reading this, i'd highly recommend breaking your pills in 1:2 or into 1:4 and taking it slow because there's nothing worse than taking way too much at once and ending up rocking and shaking in the corner. Oh how I wish I'd listened to the wise old rave heads at the warehouse parties I was at; none of us listened but we soon learnt the hard way!


----------



## indigoaura

> Forms that the dry molecule can take should be irrelevant to the effects of the drug once it is dissolved in the body.



If that is the case, why are there so many articles about polymorphism being an issue due to how it "affects solubility and bioavailability which are important factors for drug delivery" (Kirsop Labs)?



> In 1997, Henck showed that polymorphism has a major impact on pharmaceutical compounds and drug delivery. Polymorphism can influence the formation and properties of medicine both on active ingredients and excipients, fillers, stabilizers, coatings, drying agents, etc. The properties are related to use, efficacy and stability of the drugs. The key factors for preparation of drugs are dissolution rate and solubility, both of which determine the bioavailability of a drug. Dissolution rate and solubility will be influenced by the formation of hydrates, solvates, metastable forms and amorphous forms.



Link: http://kirsoplabs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Sample-article-for-example-1.pdf


----------



## indigoaura

> Also the amount of MDMA that's taken would dictate a lot of what kind of high would be experienced. For example, if I was to take anywhere between 50-80mg; I would get that lovey euphoria radiating through my body without the amphetamine-like speediness and anxiety that's common with doses upwards of 100-150mg.



Unfortunately, that is not the case for the specific issue that we are discussing in this thread. Dosage (whether raised or lowered) does not alter the quality of the experience to be more like typical MDMA. The amphetamine qualities are lacking (even at high doses), and the euphoric/loved up qualities are lacking  in all dose ranges.


----------



## indigoaura

What do ya'll think of posting this somewhere as a PDF? What could I add to make it more encompassing?

*Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”*


We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab, tested with GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
“Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
“Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.

*Traditional (magic) MDMA**Sub-par (meh) MDMA**Mydriasis (eye dilation)*YesNo*Enhanced tactile senses*YesNo*Enhanced auditory senses*YesNo*Feelings of euphoria*YesNo*Feelings of empathy*YesNo*Pro-social behaviors*YesNo*Energy*YesNo*Feeling sleepy*NoYes*Desire to be alone/quiet*NoYes*Enhanced sex/making out*YesNo*Feelings of love*YesNo*Desire to be still*NoYes*Jaw movement*Yes (tension, grinding)Yes (shivering, shaking)*Duration*4-6 hours1-3 hours


----------



## user666

MBaggott said:


> Forms that the dry molecule can take should be irrelevant to the effects of the drug once it is dissolved in the body.


When, I wrote dissolved I DID NOT mean "in the body" but in a liquid (such as water) prior to consumption.
Also, I meant a *complete dissolution*!  ..which renders different solubilities a moot point (unless you are dealing with total insolubility).  Incomplete/partial dissolution can be easily noticed as solid particulates of different refractive index remaining in the solution.

I did not imagine that my words could be misinterpreted so badly as to indicate dissolution "in the body".


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> What could I add to make it more encompassing


Put more effort into emphasizing that we are dealing with "some form of GCMS" testing, so the people reading it don't get the idea that it is an exhaustive GCMS analysis.  You know it is not because the lab you have sent it to did not even give you the chromatogram nor the spectrogram.  I noticed that the lack of this distinction sows a lot of confusion because most pros have so much faith in the GCMS analysis (sometimes I get the idea, they treat it as the holy grail of analytic chemistry) that any suggestion from our side that it might have missed something is met with a high degree of skepticism.  They should be made acutely aware that "some form of GCMS" does not necessarily mean a "diligently made and exhaustive GCMS".

Also, before your table listing the objective and subjective effects of the Meh MDMA vs. the magic MDMA you should mention at what does you are making this comparison.
For example I found it to be true that at 1mg/kg of body weigh, the Meh MDMA does not dilate the pupils but the magic MDMA does.  But the same is *not* true at 3mg/kg.
A distinction between subjective and objective effects should also be made (e.g. with different colors).


----------



## indigoaura

Thanks for your suggestions @user666, I will adjust!

I think your point about GCMS analysis is a good one. The products have been tested via currently available means of drug testing such as International Energy Control, Drugs Data, and other local testing options available in specific countries. I don't think anyone has been provided with chromatogram/spectrogram information yet.

I would be hard pressed to make a specific dosage generalization in the table due to many of the magic experiences being from pills rather than measured crystal/powder. I also don't want the table to just represent my observations. I saw no eye dilation with 120 mg + 100 mg of MehDMA, but other people have taken higher/lower doses with the same observation. I want the table to represent the many, many reports in this thread and not just a specific individual's reports.

I agree about the subjective/objective aspect. I was trying to think of a good way to incorporate that. I even considered adding a second table of observations from non-inebriated individuals watching people on MDMA, but I did not want to confuse things.


----------



## mooka

indigoaura said:


> What do ya'll think of posting this somewhere as a PDF? What could I add to make it more encompassing?
> 
> *Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”*
> 
> 
> We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab, tested with GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
> “Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
> “Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
> Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
> Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
> No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
> Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
> Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.
> 
> *Traditional (magic) MDMA**Sub-par (meh) MDMA**Mydriasis (eye dilation)*YesNo*Enhanced tactile senses*YesNo*Enhanced auditory senses*YesNo*Feelings of euphoria*YesNo*Feelings of empathy*YesNo*Pro-social behaviors*YesNo*Energy*YesNo*Feeling sleepy*NoYes*Desire to be alone/quiet*NoYes*Enhanced sex/making out*YesNo*Feelings of love*YesNo*Desire to be still*NoYes*Jaw movement*Yes (tension, grinding)Yes (shivering, shaking)*Duration*4-6 hours1-3 hours


I like the idea..I would add:
Enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music
Profuse sweating (which is a very common physical effect completely overlooked)


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> When, I wrote dissolved I DID NOT mean "in the body" but in a liquid (such as water) prior to consumption.
> Also, I meant a *complete dissolution*!  ..which renders different solubilities a moot point (unless you are dealing with total insolubility).  Incomplete/partial dissolution can be easily noticed as solid particulates of different refractive index remaining in the solution.
> 
> I did not imagine that my words could be misinterpreted so badly as to indicate dissolution "in the body".



So, if I wanted to rule this out as an issue with my current product, I could dissolve what I have in water? If it will not dissolve in water, then I know there is an issue?


----------



## indigoaura

mooka said:


> I like the idea..I would add:
> Enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music
> Profuse sweating (which is a very common physical effect completely overlooked)



When you say enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music, is that different from enhanced auditory senses? I was specifically thinking of music appreciation with that category, but was trying to be more clinical with how it was described. I can add it to the category already there, or create an entire new row.

I added profuse sweating, and that reminded me to add "feeling cold in a warm environment" which is a problem for me with the "meh" stuff.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> So, if I wanted to rule this out as an issue with my current product, I could dissolve what I have in water? If it will not dissolve in water, then I know there is an issue?


Yes, a 100mg of crystalline polymorph MDMA salt might dissolve slower but it will dissolve completely in 100ml of water, which is an amount, which falls within any sane solubility range.
Anything that does not dissolve in that amount of water at room temperature is not an MDMA salt... e.g. an excipient.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, help me out here people...

The Meh product definitely fucks you up. How would you describe the quality of the high? It is hard for me to describe it by anything other than but what it is lacking, but there is no doubt that I am NOT sober when I am on it. If you have had the "meh" product, how would you describe the specific nature of that high? I can't find the right words to describe it in an objective manner. For me, it makes me want to be very still on my couch. I don't feel inclined to talk to anyone, and wish people would be quiet. There is a memory lapse component to it in high doses, but that is true for MDMA. I listen to music, but it does not really sound any better and I don't appreciate it more. In terms of mental space, I would say it creates a very vacant mental space. I feel okay, and I am not particularly worried about anything. Honestly, it feels similar to a low dose of xanax to me, maybe .5 mg of xanax. But, with xanax I don't feel agitated or angry, and the meh product can definitely lead to a quick shift towards agitation/anger.


----------



## MBaggott

user666 said:


> When, I wrote dissolved I DID NOT mean "in the body" but in a liquid (such as water) prior to consumption.
> ...
> I did not imagine that my words could be misinterpreted so badly as to indicate dissolution "in the body".


Not sure why you thought I was responding to something you wrote. I was pointing out that crystal structure is very unlikely to have any influence on drug effects since dissolution happens before these effects. Accordingly crystal structure seems to me unable to explain differences in the effects of different batches.


----------



## CFC

indigoaura said:


> What do ya'll think of posting this somewhere as a PDF? What could I add to make it more encompassing?
> 
> *Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”*
> 
> 
> We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab, tested with GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
> “Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
> “Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
> Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
> Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
> No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
> Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
> Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.
> 
> *Traditional (magic) MDMA**Sub-par (meh) MDMA**Mydriasis (eye dilation)*YesNo*Enhanced tactile senses*YesNo*Enhanced auditory senses*YesNo*Feelings of euphoria*YesNo*Feelings of empathy*YesNo*Pro-social behaviors*YesNo*Energy*YesNo*Feeling sleepy*NoYes*Desire to be alone/quiet*NoYes*Enhanced sex/making out*YesNo*Feelings of love*YesNo*Desire to be still*NoYes*Jaw movement*Yes (tension, grinding)Yes (shivering, shaking)*Duration*4-6 hours1-3 hours



Once all finalised and agreed, this could easily be added as a summary sheet (with author credits given) to Le Junk's first post in this thread if y'all think it would be helpful?


----------



## indigoaura

CFC said:


> Once all finalised and agreed, this could easily be added as a summary sheet (with author credits given) to Le Junk's first post in this thread if y'all think it would be helpful?



Yes, I think it would be very helpful. We keep getting the same questions and misunderstandings over and over.


----------



## CFC

indigoaura said:


> Yes, I think it would be very helpful. We keep getting the same questions and misunderstandings over and over.



Seems like a good plan then. For now I'll insert a link to your most excellent work-in-progress summary in the first post. I envisage using the Forum Bot to create a new second post containing the summary and/or whatever else might be helpful/useful. This can then be modified and updated at will as required.

Thank you so much for getting the ball rolling on this indigoaura  Truth be told we've been toying with creating summaries in all BL megathreads for a long time to make the vast quantities of knowledge within more accessible. But holy cow it would be the megaproject of all megaprojects given size and number of megathreads here.


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> Yes, I think it would be very helpful. We keep getting the same questions and misunderstandings over and over.



That must have been a huge amount of work to go through 216 pages of posts! Thanks for doing this @indigoaura. This is really impressive.

The Meh column looks truly dismal. I haven't read this whole thread, but if that is what people are experiencing, it doesn't sound like fun.
The only thing in the meh column that I may experience is the *Desire to be alone/quiet *part sometimes. I enjoy rolling alone (but I also enjoy it with people). It's probably more of a personality or age thing.


----------



## indigoaura

Thank you @CFC and @fasterfb. 

I am also going to add an addendum to the bottom with the most relevant research articles. 

@fasterfb I also enjoy rolling alone. The distinction here is that if I take typical MDMA in a setting with other people, I will feel positively towards them and want to engage with them (unless I am just blowing up so hard that I need to take a moment to collect myself). However, if I take "meh" MDMA in a setting with other people, I actively want to get away from them and feel annoyed when they try to engage with me by speaking to me or interacting with me.  I am not trying to convey that you cannot enjoy MDMA alone, you absolutely can. I will try to think of a better way to phrase this. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "Active desire to disengage from social interaction."


----------



## indigoaura

I am also planning to re-read all 216 pages and create a master list of all of the posters who have commented on having experienced "Meh" MDMA. I would like to get an accurate count along with percentages for the various effects/lack of effects.


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> Active desire to disengage from social interaction.



Yes, that might be a better way of explaining it. So for me, no I don't feel annoyed with people or feel the need to disengage, in reaction to the way that I'm feeling on the roll.


----------



## psy997

Gonna get to feedback on this tomorrow morning. So many thanks, indigoaura. If we get it looking good enough I'm game for plastering it everywhere we can.


----------



## crOOk

MDMA has always been on the same level of quality for me, regardless of source. I've never had any from the 80s, but I've taken plenty of XTC and crystalline MDMA in the past 20 years. If it tests for MDMA only, it does the trick. I probably wouldn't be married if it wasn't for MDMA.

I just can't agree with you on this one. In fact, I'm one of those guys who keeps saying "MDMA is MDMA". Doesn't matter if I shoot, eat or plug it. Dosage is always 100% reliable.


----------



## CFC

indigoaura said:


> I am also planning to re-read all 216 pages and create a master list of all of the posters who have commented on having experienced "Meh" MDMA. I would like to get an accurate count along with percentages for the various effects/lack of effects.



You're a star mate! Really looking forward to seeing the kinds of patterns you find as you trawl through the data


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I've just received a fresh batch which I'll be sampling at the weekend. I've not had any for a couple of months, so if I'm fast asleep after 2-3 hours I'm fuckin giving up..!


----------



## indigoaura

crOOk said:


> MDMA has always been on the same level of quality for me, regardless of source. I've never had any from the 80s, but I've taken plenty of XTC and crystalline MDMA in the past 20 years. If it tests for MDMA only, it does the trick. I probably wouldn't be married if it wasn't for MDMA.
> 
> I just can't agree with you on this one. In fact, I'm one of those guys who keeps saying "MDMA is MDMA". Doesn't matter if I shoot, eat or plug it. Dosage is always 100% reliable.



It is not really a matter of agree or not agree, but more a matter of have you experienced it or have you not experienced it. Since you have never experienced it, you may be in a region that is fortunate enough to have consistent, quality product. If you don't mind me asking, where are you located?

Edited to add: looks like you are in Germany. I do not recall a lot of people posting to the thread about this phenomenon from Germany.


----------



## Tranced

indigoaura said:


> What do ya'll think of posting this somewhere as a PDF? What could I add to make it more encompassing?
> 
> *Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”*
> 
> 
> We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab, tested with GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
> “Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
> “Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
> Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
> Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
> No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
> Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
> Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.
> 
> *Traditional (magic) MDMA**Sub-par (meh) MDMA**Mydriasis (eye dilation)*YesNo*Enhanced tactile senses*YesNo*Enhanced auditory senses*YesNo*Feelings of euphoria*YesNo*Feelings of empathy*YesNo*Pro-social behaviors*YesNo*Energy*YesNo*Feeling sleepy*NoYes*Desire to be alone/quiet*NoYes*Enhanced sex/making out*YesNo*Feelings of love*YesNo*Desire to be still*NoYes*Jaw movement*Yes (tension, grinding)Yes (shivering, shaking)*Duration*4-6 hours1-3 hours



Although I appreciate the work you are (all) putting into the thread, you're missing out on the inherent bias of people posting in the thread and being whipped into a frenzy with purely anecdotal reports and their own subjective exerience. Seriously, some of the things I've witnessed in here as evidence; stuff like peoples eyes not dilating, nobody giving massages in clubs any more, nobody hugging on MDMA any more just does not tally with actually going to a club.

Also, your graph just does not add up. For example the 'jaw movement' row. I've both experienced and witnessed tension and grinding, as well as shivering and shaking pretty much every time I've taken MDMA. I'm somewhat of a pro gurner when it comes to MDMA, and by that I mean my jaw frequently gets its quiver on depending on dose and how much I control it. There is nothing abnormal about your jaw 'shivering and shaking' when you take MDMA and I tend to find it differs from person to person and dose. In my experience.



crOOk said:


> MDMA has always been on the same level of quality for me, regardless of source. I've never had any from the 80s, but I've taken plenty of XTC and crystalline MDMA in the past 20 years. If it tests for MDMA only, it does the trick. I probably wouldn't be married if it wasn't for MDMA.
> 
> I just can't agree with you on this one. In fact, I'm one of those guys who keeps saying "MDMA is MDMA". Doesn't matter if I shoot, eat or plug it. Dosage is always 100% reliable.



Exactly the same experience and thoughts here. If I take 135mg weighed MDMA, I know exactly what it's going to do... because I've been taking it that was since 2005.



indigoaura said:


> It is not really a matter of agree or not agree, but more a matter of have you experienced it or have you not experienced it. Since you have never experienced it, you may be in a region that is fortunate enough to have consistent, quality product. If you don't mind me asking, where are you located?
> 
> Edited to add: looks like you are in Germany. I do not recall a lot of people posting to the thread about this phenomenon from Germany.



I started a thread with a poll asking which country people were from who experienced all this (or it might have been the MDMA 'LTC' actually) just a year or two back, but can't find it.

Not many German people have posted in the thread, but very few bluelighters are german. From what I can see and observe online, the MDMA available in the UK, Germany and Holland, to name but a few European countries I can observe, tend to get roughly the same MDMA, likely coming from the same labs.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> It is not really a matter of agree or not agree, but more a matter of have you experienced it or have you not experienced it. Since you have never experienced it, you may be in a region that is fortunate enough to have consistent, quality product. If you don't mind me asking, where are you located?
> 
> Edited to add: looks like you are in Germany. I do not recall a lot of people posting to the thread about this phenomenon from Germany.



In my opinion based on my research Germany does very well and likely has a decent amount of domestic product.

I should note where I grew up and where I obtain my “magic” product is an area rich in German heritage.  A lot of great minds come from there.

Germans are smart and know their chemistry.  If you look Germans also take the lowest doses of any nation (110mg on average if I remember right) another sign they take quality product.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@Tranced 

"you're missing out on the inherent bias" I do not doubt that the people drawn to this thread are mostly people who have experienced low-quality MDMA, and thus, the data is skewed. It does not change the reality that this is happening to a decent number of people in a wide variety of areas. Anecdotal reports are often the first stage of data gathering before larger studies are launched, and are relevant in many fields of study. To completely dismiss anecdotal reports is illogical.

"Seriously, some of the things I've witnessed in here as evidence; stuff like peoples eyes not dilating, nobody giving massages in clubs any more, nobody hugging on MDMA any more just does not tally with actually going to a club."

This is going to be a regional thing. You went to a club and you saw evidence of quality MDMA in circulation. I went to a rave in my area (southern USA), and a very small number of people displayed observable signs of MDMA use. In contrast, a lot of people were standing very still, not dancing, and zoned out. It did not look anything like a club or a rave where quality MDMA is circulating freely (and I have been to enough events to know the difference). It is not a competition where only one of us has observed something true. Both of our observations can be true. All that it means is that some regions have better product in circulation. 

"Also, your graph just does not add up. For example the 'jaw movement' row. I've both experienced and witnessed tension and grinding, as well as shivering and shaking pretty much every time I've taken MDMA. I'm somewhat of a pro gurner when it comes to MDMA, and by that I mean my jaw frequently gets its quiver on depending on dose and how much I control it. There is nothing abnormal about your jaw 'shivering and shaking' when you take MDMA and I tend to find it differs from person to person and dose. In my experience."

Do you think it would just be better to say yes to both then? The low quality product does still produce jaw movement. However, multiple people have reported a different quality to the movement, and I was trying to capture that. It also looks different. I find that when I look at someone on "meh" product, I can't really tell that they are doing anything with their jaw. However, on quality product, it often looks like the jaw is to the side and skewed. I have photos and videos which I cannot post due to privacy concerns, but my point is that it is observable to someone who is sober and watching the the user. It is also subjectively observable by the user, because it feels different.

"Exactly the same experience and thoughts here. If I take 135mg weighed MDMA, I know exactly what it's going to do... because I've been taking it that was since 2005."

How would you feel if that was not the case, and 135 mg of product produced vastly different effects (even under controlled environments, fasting, etc)?

I get the impression from a lot of people who read and post in this thread that they are personally offended by the implication that some MDMA is flawed. I could be wrong, but it feels like when people have not experienced it, they just believe it does not exist. Since it is outside of their realm of experience, the implication that it is happening to other people is somehow an insult to the reader's personal experience of quality MDMA. 

Our truths can both exist at once. It is possible, and also probable, that many people have never encountered this issue. Perhaps due to region, supplier, or social circle, you (and many others) have no idea what we are talking about here. That is lucky for you! But please do not assume that the intelligent people contributing their experiences here are fictionalizing this.


----------



## Simosom

I have a friends roling with me from early 2000. 
Some of them will rate their batches as potent or not potent. 
They are not bothering with analize, they would accept it as it is, without thinking too much of it. 
Those kind of people would say fuck it, lets get party. 
Regarding the Germany. 
I'v been at big events around the Germany and Holland, during the last 5 years i was not able to find anything that is not meh. 
Mostly popular Dutch presses and mdma, all reagent tested. 
Some of them were going straight to black some purple to black.


----------



## Genetic Freak

indigoaura said:


> I am also planning to re-read all 216 pages and create a master list of all of the posters who have commented on having experienced "Meh" MDMA. I would like to get an accurate count along with percentages for the various effects/lack of effects.



Put me down as one of your statistics, had similar experience since 2010 up to 2020, had some product GC/MS, or reagent tested present as "Meh" when consumed..
Have experience of better days late 90's-2005..


----------



## Simosom

One more thing that is different to me is, from magic mdma you are comming down gradually and longer. 
With meh i go full sober after 3h, ready to drive an airplain.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> In my opinion based on my research Germany does very well and likely has a decent amount of domestic product.
> 
> I should note where I grew up and where I obtain my “magic” product is an area rich in German heritage.  A lot of great minds come from there.
> 
> Germans are smart and know their chemistry.  If you look Germans also take the lowest doses of any nation (110mg on average if I remember right) another sign they take quality product.
> 
> -GC


German MDMA comes from dutch labs those are acutally closer to the border around Belgium. Half a KG of mdma is super super cheap in europe at wholesale alot cheaper than weed aswell. Most people buy pure uncut rocks or crystals that look fucking amazing. I have seen very dodgy looking mdma over the years that has obvious cuts in it like 4-FA methlyone  and usually just speed aswell. Germany is usually used to ship products from rather than holland sinces it is a mega hotspot but germany is also a hotspot but less than holland. So dutch  producers move alot of their product into Germany then to other places in europe


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> In my opinion based on my research Germany does very well and likely has a decent amount of domestic product.
> 
> I should note where I grew up and where I obtain my “magic” product is an area rich in German heritage.  A lot of great minds come from there.
> 
> Germans are smart and know their chemistry.  If you look Germans also take the lowest doses of any nation (110mg on average if I remember right) another sign they take quality product.
> 
> -GC


Interesting spotlight you draw on this. One really startling fact to myself on Iearning- Plum Island off New York, advanced animal disease research center, where it was openly admitted they were bioengineering zoonotic organisms capable of infecting both animals and humans......  then suddenly an outbteak of Lyme in Offshore local Conneticutt.

Sorry folks. Rambling. But no question in my mind, the current, modern Lyme causing "Borrelia" bacteria, which has been around since ever incidentally....

That it is a biological lab creation/modification.

Aaaaanyeay, lol sorry. I'm high on weed and strong Kava. My simple point-

Plum Island was set up by an ex Nazi Scientist, recruited after the war. Like so many we know.

His speciality- was Tick-borne illnesses!


That really amazed me to learn that.
Hope y'all are well people. Just hanging in there myself but doing okay take care all.

Nice mellow old skool jungle beats atm, well chilled out.


----------



## AutoTripper

Simosom said:


> One more thing that is different to me is, from magic mdma you are comming down gradually and longer.
> With meh i go full sober after 3h, ready to drive an airplain.


My freshest memories of MDMA, particular between 2003 and 2005, when I returned to my UK home town after 4 years at Seansea University....


We got really amazing pills then, pure crystal and white powder MDMA, I took loads at a time. But there was never a harsh comedown. Just a beautiful hallucinogenic afterglow.

But I also took lots of pills in the past I would consider shit and it was miserable only having access to such dire product.  So some batches would make you feel shit afterwards- regretful almost at points.

But not those pure MDMA presses and powder. You just drifted back down to earth, with such a lasting feeling of acceptance of yourself and everything around you which probably counter weighed the inevitable dips and lows from brain chemistry at cetera.

But that was me, and I ain't normal haha!



Edit- the only REAL bummer I can recall- having to go to work as a Dustman at 6 am on Monday morning, often after 2 or 3 nights of no sleep and 20-30 130mg plus old skool pills, trips, ketamine.

Boy, the times I went to work in the early dark hours, just trying not to get run over....tripping out of my face (I used to trip plenty on MDMA and weed alone, like 5 strong pills and above).

If I could have slept nice, chilled all week smoking skunk, seeing my close friends I loved to hang with.....I don't think I would have been too sad overall.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> I went to a rave in my area (southern USA), and a very small number of people displayed observable signs of MDMA use. In contrast, a lot of people were standing very still, not dancing, and zoned out. It did not look anything like a club or a rave where quality MDMA is circulating freely (and I have been to enough events to know the difference).


Did you ask any of those zoned out individuals if they were on MDMA? Rather than indicating the presence of low-quality MDMA, your observation might have been the result of the general absence of any type of MDMA. At the last event I went to GHB and ketamine seemed to be the most popular substances, which will certainly give a different look to the crowd depending on the doses people are taking.


----------



## AutoTripper

Negi said:


> Did you ask any of those zoned out individuals if they were on MDMA? Rather than indicating the presence of low-quality MDMA, your observation might have been the result of the general absence of any type of MDMA. At the last event I went to GHB and ketamine seemed to be the most popular substances, which will certainly give a different look to the crowd depending on the doses people are taking.


Certainly, ketamine drastically alters demeanour haha. But once up on true MDMA, the ket in moderation, serves as a stimulant and the Pure MDMA energized high is still there to shine through.

In my days of experience anyway, but dosages are key of course.


----------



## fasterfb

AutoTripper said:


> Certainly, ketamine drastically alters demeanour haha. But once up on true MDMA, the ket in moderation, serves as a stimulant and the Pure MDMA energized high is still there to shine through.



Yes I agree. Ket is a great addition to the MDMA experience. I don't leave home without it, lol.
I typically start using it closer to the end of my roll, and I find it really brings the glow back nicely.


----------



## AutoTripper

fasterfb said:


> Yes I agree. Ket is a great addition to the MDMA experience. I don't leave home without it, lol.
> I typically start using it closer to the end of my roll, and I find it really brings the glow back nicely.


It also takes the edge off of everything and anything. And there is ideation which I think may have some evidence behind it that actually using ketamine in conjunction with MDMA similarly to cannabis and potentially other psychedelics as well can can help to reduce the neurotoxic impact.

During those few years 2003 to 2005 just after I returned from university and was partying at outdoor free parties and festivals regularly, with access to the same quality purely clean MDMA pills at home....


I was taking ketamine moderately enough but very regularly and always alongside the MDMA and acid whenever it came by.

So these may well have been Factors in me not experiencing such a negative come down effect for all that we know.


----------



## fasterfb

AutoTripper said:


> And there is ideation which I think may have some evidence behind it that actually using ketamine in conjunction with MDMA similarly to cannabis and potentially other psychedelics as well can can help to reduce the neurotoxic impact.



Well, that would be a bonus if ketamine and/or other psychedelics also offered some neuro-protection.
I usually flip with some type of psychedelic(s) when I roll.
I go nuts with the anti-oxidants as well, as I feel subjectively that they do help.
Also, grapefruit juice/extract at the beginning and throughout.


----------



## Hilopsilo

this thing was already off the rails and then quarantine happened


----------



## Wilson Wilson

indigoaura said:


> It is not really a matter of agree or not agree, but more a matter of have you experienced it or have you not experienced it. Since you have never experienced it, you may be in a region that is fortunate enough to have consistent, quality product. If you don't mind me asking, where are you located?
> 
> Edited to add: looks like you are in Germany. I do not recall a lot of people posting to the thread about this phenomenon from Germany.



Apologises if I'm asking something that's been answered, this is a 217 page thread... is this a mostly US issue? I'm in the UK and I am too young to comment on what things were like in the 80's, but we get a supply of highly pure MDMA from the Netherlands and I've found most of it to be really good, euphoric, loved up stuff. I have noticed some seems more stimulating than others - but this could easily be set and setting, and I know for a fact that even my prescribed amphetamine feels different each day despite all being identical coming from the same pharma company, so I would expect similar from MDMA.

I've had it in all forms: power, crystal, and pills. The powder has varied in colour from being white with a slightly brownish hue to being downright brown. Colour and quality don't seem to correlate much anecdotally though.

I rarely get a horrid comedown the next day unless I take too much, but it's obvious higher doses lead to worse comedowns. If I dose sensibly I will have a nice afterglow the next day, and a mild comedown for a week max but nothing a bit of weed can't smooth out.

I expect most people who complain of horrid comedowns from the UK are experiencing that as a result of UK dosing which is often over the top like over 200mg in a night easily.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

The best thing ever to really avoid a mdma come down if you are using alot more than the usual rules around it is to take 2CB somewhere a few hours in and smoke alot of weed the whole mdma trip. 2cb is extremly neuroprotective and nick sands recommended only ever doing MDMA with 2cb and i believe this was a combo sasha shulgin very much enjoyed aswell.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

TripSitterNZ said:


> The best thing ever to really avoid a mdma come down if you are using alot more than the usual rules around it is to take 2CB somewhere a few hours in and smoke alot of weed the whole mdma trip. 2cb is extremly neuroprotective and nick sands recommended only ever doing MDMA with 2cb and i believe this was a combo sasha shulgin very much enjoyed aswell.



Interesting about 2cb, only tried it a handful of times, don't think I ever mixed it with MDMA. Weed I've had with MDMA many times of course, always a good mix, and a mate told me it's neuroprotective as well but I have no idea how true that actually is.


----------



## fasterfb

TripSitterNZ said:


> The best thing ever to really avoid a mdma come down if you are using alot more than the usual rules around it is to take 2CB somewhere a few hours in and smoke alot of weed the whole mdma trip. 2cb is extremly neuroprotective and nick sands recommended only ever doing MDMA with 2cb and i believe this was a combo sasha shulgin very much enjoyed aswell.



Do you think 2CE would have a similar neuroprotective action?
And if so, would different psychs including acid do the same?
Thanks!


----------



## TripSitterNZ

fasterfb said:


> Do you think 2CE would have a similar neuroprotective action?
> And if so, would different psychs including acid do the same?
> Thanks!


I believe with LSD no i get terrible comedowns on candy flips but with 2cb nexus flips i dont. unsure about 2ce.


----------



## sassyfrass

TripSitterNZ said:


> The best thing ever to really avoid a mdma come down if you are using alot more than the usual rules around it is to take 2CB somewhere a few hours in and smoke alot of weed the whole mdma trip. 2cb is extremly neuroprotective and nick sands recommended only ever doing MDMA with 2cb and i believe this was a combo sasha shulgin very much enjoyed aswell.


while i agree MDMA and THC is a godly combination, 
I wouldnt advises it for preventing physical side effects as both vastly increse blood pressure and can  put tough strain on the heart.
Mentally though yes ive never had bad comedowns because i always smoked dabs during my rolling days, doesnt work repetedly though as if you are going at it every day brain zaps are unavoidable.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

@G_Chem

Maybe you posted it already and I missed it, but did you finish your full reagent testing?

I just re-tested 2 batches this morning with Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin and Simons A/B.

Batch 1: 
Confirmed meh (for me and my wife anyway, have some friends who said they enjoyed it)
DN sourced from Canada
White powder with small white/grey crystals

Batch 2: 
Haven't tried yet 
DN sourced from USA (same vendor indigoaura got her last batch from that she said was just ok) 
White powder that looks like sugar

Reagent Results

Batch 1 (Meh)
Marquis: Straight to black
Mandelin: Straight to black
Mecke: Straight to black
Simons A: No reaction
Simons B: Bright blue

Batch 2 
Marquis: Flash of purple to black, purple around edges
Mandelin: Straight to black 
Mecke: Flash of green to black, green around edges (the green edges could possibly just be traces of leftover reagent)
Simons A: No reaction
Simons B: Bright blue


----------



## EntheoDjinn

@sassyfrass

Are you sure that MDMA and THC _vastly_ increase blood pressure. _Overdoses_ of one or the other or both perhaps, but I am pretty sure that the increases are not particularly high. I stand to be corrected though.


----------



## G_Chem

opposable-thumbs said:


> @G_Chem
> 
> Maybe you posted it already and I missed it, but did you finish your full reagent testing?
> 
> I just re-tested 2 batches this morning with Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin and Simons A/B.
> 
> Batch 1:
> Confirmed meh (for me and my wife anyway, have some friends who said they enjoyed it)
> DN sourced from Canada
> White powder with small white/grey crystals
> 
> Batch 2:
> Haven't tried yet
> DN sourced from USA (same vendor indigoaura got her last batch from that she said was just ok)
> White powder that looks like sugar
> 
> Reagent Results
> 
> Batch 1 (Meh)
> Marquis: Straight to black
> Mandelin: Straight to black
> Mecke: Straight to black
> Simons A: No reaction
> Simons B: Bright blue
> 
> Batch 2
> Marquis: Flash of purple to black, purple around edges
> Mandelin: Straight to black
> Mecke: Flash of green to black, green around edges (the green edges could possibly just be traces of leftover reagent)
> Simons A: No reaction
> Simons B: Bright blue



Sorry I haven’t yet with all the projects on my plate but today I’ll try and remember to finish them up.

I do notice with less pure batches the reactions are more in line with your initial meh batch, so hopefully this second one delivers more.

-GC


----------



## mooka

indigoaura said:


> When you say enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music, is that different from enhanced auditory senses? I was specifically thinking of music appreciation with that category, but was trying to be more clinical with how it was described. I can add it to the category already there, or create an entire new row.


Well it is different because one thing is having enhanced auditory senses, meh does that, sound and music are enhanced ,sounds a bit better but that's it, but with magic music is.. magic, sensual, it "plays your soul". You can stay hours listening to music enjoying it while even your favourite music sounds dull and boring on meh.


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi No, I did not interrupt any of the attendees at the rave to ask them what drugs they had taken. I was chaperoning a younger family member at the time. It is very possible the spaced out people were not on MDMA, but that does not change the fact that a very small number of the attendees displayed signs of rolling. It was definitely not the same as an event where the majority of attendees had taken quality product. 

@Wilson Wilson There have been people in the US and the UK who have commented on the phenomenon. 

As for the 2CB...in my experience, taking 2CB after Meh product is horrible. Very negative. Headaches, overwhelming, unpleasant. I always heard how great it was, but that combo is BAD. I thought I was going to have to call an ambulance once when I mixed MehDMA + 2CB with the MehDMA first. Now, the flip side of that is that 2CB first actually seemed to reduce some of the negative effects of the MehDMA. This just makes me think there is something going on with receptor affinity.


----------



## indigoaura

opposable-thumbs said:


> @G_Chem
> 
> Maybe you posted it already and I missed it, but did you finish your full reagent testing?
> 
> I just re-tested 2 batches this morning with Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin and Simons A/B.
> 
> Batch 1:
> Confirmed meh (for me and my wife anyway, have some friends who said they enjoyed it)
> DN sourced from Canada
> White powder with small white/grey crystals
> 
> Batch 2:
> Haven't tried yet
> DN sourced from USA (same vendor indigoaura got her last batch from that she said was just ok)
> White powder that looks like sugar
> 
> Reagent Results
> 
> Batch 1 (Meh)
> Marquis: Straight to black
> Mandelin: Straight to black
> Mecke: Straight to black/
> Simons A: No reaction
> Simons B: Bright blue
> 
> Batch 2
> Marquis: Flash of purple to black, purple around edges
> Mandelin: Straight to black
> Mecke: Flash of green to black, green around edges (the green edges could possibly just be traces of leftover reagent)
> Simons A: No reaction
> Simons B: Bright blue



I am very curious what your experience is with this product. If you and your wife find it to be magic, top product, then I can basically assume my issue is a personal issue and not a product issue. I agree that it looked better on reagent tests, and it feels better than most sub-par product. I will definitely continue to experiment with it, and may try to clean it further/run a column (if I can figure it out).


----------



## opposable-thumbs

Me too...original plan was to have tried it already, but decided to take a much longer break.
Almost at 7 months since the last time.

I'm itching to try that batch, but i always find it more fun (for obvious reasons) when my wife and I roll together.
She hasn't wanted to because she usually gets bad brain fog for about a week after we roll, no matter how many supplements she takes, and she recently started a new job that requires a lot more mental focus than her previous job, so I'm waiting for the right time when we can both try it.

In the mean time, I still periodically browse the DN markets looking for the type of clear crystals that were posted way back in this thread, but no luck so far.


----------



## Simosom

I really can't remember brain fog and brain zaps from my earlier rolling days.
With new meh products, brain zaps always start second day after come down. Although, day after i am feeling perfectly fine. 
It lasts 3 to 5 days, followed with nausea and dizziness.


----------



## indigoaura

Simosom said:


> I really can't remember brain fog and brain zaps from my earlier rolling days.
> With new meh products, brain zaps always start second day after come down. Although, day after i am feeling perfectly fine.
> It lasts 3 to 5 days, followed with nausea and dizziness.



This is exactly what I was talking about in another thread. The day after the roll is fine. Then, day 2-6 you are physically sick (nausea/dizziness).  Posters were commenting they had never heard of such a thing, but it has been reported in this thread with the "meh" batches quite a bit. I got some relief recently with electrolyte supplements and high dose magnesium, FYI.


----------



## psy997

@indigoaura Still going to give feedback. Things are pretty busy right now and it may be a day or two still, though.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> The day after the roll is fine. Then, day 2-6 you are physically sick (nausea/dizziness).


I also get dizzy and brain zaps on the 2nd day after Meh MDMA.
My friends, that rolled with me, too.  Every one of them.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

I only got brain zaps if i ate half a gram of mdma in a night. Very good pills with 260 mg mdma usually left me feeling ok the next day but Meth mixed presses gave me the worst comedowns i ever felt with mdma. Speed or meth cut mdma is notorious comedowns same with more MDA content. Pure uncut mdma has been okay if i did a normal 100-150 mg amount for come downs. If i redose the same weight though i will feel quite depressed for a week. Good mdma if i smoke weed the next night the afterglow slight effects come back and i will be on a mini roll not sure if anybody has experienced that before.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

Simosom said:


> I really can't remember brain fog and brain zaps from my earlier rolling days.
> With new meh products, brain zaps always start second day after come down. Although, day after i am feeling perfectly fine.
> It lasts 3 to 5 days, followed with nausea and dizziness.



What kind of doses are you taking? I've had brain zaps from taking ~300mg in a night. But if I'm less stupid and stick more to ~150mg it's smooth sailing.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> I also get dizzy and brain zaps on the 2nd day after Meh MDMA.
> My friends, that rolled with me, too.  Every one of them.



Yup.

And to me, this is the type of thing that really points to some type of contaminant. With good MDMA pills, I recall on a few occasions eating 5-6 in a night, but I never had any of this weird stomach flu/zapping/twitching bullshit. I might be depressed, yes. Typically, a bad comedown from MDMA was anywhere from a day to maybe 5 days of low mood or overly emotional mood. With the "meh" product, my mood the following week is completely stable. 

@TripSitterNZ The product I use is lab tested and does not show any meth or MDA cut.


----------



## Simosom

@TripSitterNZ 
You can not come down from meth or mda in 3 hrs, you can not even go to sleep next morning. 
My doses are 300 mg, 150 initial plus 75 mg every 2 hrs


----------



## Negi

TripSitterNZ said:


> The best thing ever to really avoid a mdma come down if you are using alot more than the usual rules around it is to take 2CB somewhere a few hours in and smoke alot of weed the whole mdma trip. 2cb is extremly neuroprotective and nick sands recommended only ever doing MDMA with 2cb and i believe this was a combo sasha shulgin very much enjoyed aswell.


Do you have a source on the protective nature of 2C-B? @MBaggott mentioned this on a reddit discussion about MDA vs MDMA neurotoxicty, and it stuck with me since I had tried to use 2C-I as a (hopefully safer) alternative to MDMA redosing before.


> When you give a higher, neurotoxic dose of MDMA, additionally giving a psychedelic (which stimulates 5HT2A receptors) makes the neurotoxic dose of MDMA even more neurotoxic. All this is shown in multiple studies


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Negi said:


> Do you have a source on the protective nature of 2C-B? @MBaggott mentioned this on a reddit discussion about MDA vs MDMA neurotoxicty, and it stuck with me since I had tried to use 2C-I as a (hopefully safer) alternative to MDMA redosing before.


Nick sands mentioned it somewhere in a open fourm at talks he would give. Not sure exactly what video it was and i believe ann shulgin also mentions it at a conference. Theres alot of hours of video i have watched on these talks about their lives so im unsure exactly what video it will be in.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

Only ever got brain zaps from magic MDMA, and only after taking a little too much.

No brain zaps for me at all with meh.


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi I have not heard about 2CB being neuro-protective. I have heard that 2CB (by itself) is not neurotoxic, but that is a different issue. I would be careful with 2CI and 2CE + MDMA. Haven't there been a few deaths with 2CE?


----------



## rainey

indigoaura said:


> @Negi I have not heard about 2CB being neuro-protective. I have heard that 2CB (by itself) is not neurotoxic, but that is a different issue. I would be careful with 2CI and 2CE + MDMA. Haven't there been a few deaths with 2CE?



Agreed.

No zaps with meh
Agree that taking 2cb in 3rd or 4th hour of mdma gives a very gentle come down from the mdma.

I became diabetic recently and was interested to read that metformin, the popular drug for diabetis regulation, apparently repairs the neurotoxicity caused by mdma, although not exactly sure how to prove this to myself lol


----------



## indigoaura

> Agree that taking 2cb in 3rd or 4th hour of mdma gives a very gentle come down from the mdma.



I can only emphasize again that this is not what happens with the mehDMA + 2CB combo. The comedown is so much worse. It feels dangerous to me. I have had very few drug experiences that made me feel afraid for my safety, and this is one of them. Whatever is going on with my Meh-DMA, it does not mix with 2CB when you take the Meh-DMA first.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

The first time I tried 2cb was on the tail end of some MehDMA. I'd had about 200mg of the meh and fell asleep after a couple of hours. Woke up and thought I'd try the 2cb to perk me up a bit. Did around 12 - 15mg then fell back to sleep. Woke up an hour later and couldn't see because everything was pixelated. Went back to sleep.

Meh...


----------



## sheekle

I know a lot of people who used to roll in the 90’s, and say the MDMA today is the best they’ve ever had. The difference is they haven’t heavily used or abused MDMA, just taking 100-200mg once or twice a year, and took a several year break in the mid-2000’s when it was all shit.

If you feel like the incredibly potent and pure MDMA these days has something missing, it’s likely the serotonin receptors for them to bind to.

I know plenty of people that roll hard for 4-6 hours, full back massages, eye wiggles, gum chewing, and telling everyone they love them experience as it’s ever been.

If MDMA is shit for you now, just switch to other drugs.


----------



## G_Chem

sheekle said:


> I know a lot of people who used to roll in the 90’s, and say the MDMA today is the best they’ve ever had. The difference is they haven’t heavily used or abused MDMA, just taking 100-200mg once or twice a year, and took a several year break in the mid-2000’s when it was all shit.
> 
> If you feel like the incredibly potent and pure MDMA these days has something missing, it’s likely the serotonin receptors for them to bind to.
> 
> I know plenty of people that roll hard for 4-6 hours, full back massages, eye wiggles, gum chewing, and telling everyone they love them experience as it’s ever been.
> 
> If MDMA is shit for you now, just switch to other drugs.



If you don’t mind me asking, where you located?  Roughly.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

sheekle said:


> I know a lot of people who used to roll in the 90’s, and say the MDMA today is the best they’ve ever had. The difference is they haven’t heavily used or abused MDMA, just taking 100-200mg once or twice a year, and took a several year break in the mid-2000’s when it was all shit.
> 
> If you feel like the incredibly potent and pure MDMA these days has something missing, it’s likely the serotonin receptors for them to bind to.
> 
> I know plenty of people that roll hard for 4-6 hours, full back massages, eye wiggles, gum chewing, and telling everyone they love them experience as it’s ever been.
> 
> If MDMA is shit for you now, just switch to other drugs.



So how do you explain the fact that all us jaded fuck ups occasionally come across stuff that makes us wet our panties?


----------



## psy997

sheekle said:


> If you feel like the incredibly potent and pure MDMA these days has something missing, it’s likely the serotonin receptors for them to bind to.



I've used MDMA less than 20 times, and only once at a dosage higher than 150mg.

6-APB gives me most the magic I'm missing with MehDMA.


----------



## sheekle

Northeast US, but i’m still talking about the same MDMA that everyone else is taking though. From the past few years, Red Supremes, Orange Teslas, Pink Oreos, every major and popular batch of MDMA crystals, etc. Haven’t come across anything shitty since like 2015’ish.

As far as psy997, how many times have you used other empathogens though?


----------



## G_Chem

Yea and then folks like me who get magic product but the few times I’ve gotten imports they’ve been shit.  If magic loss happens so easy I’d be fried by now but I still get all of the good effects like I did when I was young.

I truly believe it’s regional based on the synthesis methods used by the chemists in that region.  And then of course some people just have better sources no matter where they live.

I came across an interesting post in the stimulants for of the Hive Archive.  It was from a guy asking essentially this same question but in regards to meth.

The guy claimed he had synthesized meth 4 completely different ways, each time resulting in a very different product from the next.  I could try and hunt it down again, but one thing he I remember was he said the product could range from lasting 7-30 hrs based on synth with different qualities for each as well.

This is why I also like having different batches of MD around, and why old ravers who exchange pills.  Even though it’s all MDMA, there’s variation and life is fun with variation..

-GC


----------



## sekio

> The guy claimed he had synthesized meth 4 completely different ways, each time resulting in a very different product from the next.



OK, but how much of said product was this individual sampling? And at the risk of  sounding like a broken fucking record, "whaddabout-the-Gee-Cee-Em-Ess?" A chemist's senses are no better than his analytical tools - it's my belief that unless you've done some sort of chromatography (TLC, or better GC), you're operating on sheer guesswork as to "what's in the bag" when it comes to impurity profiling.

The law of constant proportions in chemistry (Proust) and its elaboration into the theory of isomerism by Wohler and Berzelius in the early 1800s are my sword and shield in this agument. To wit: *Molecules with identical composition and identical connectivity to each other will behave identically.* As a corollary, _for any two substances to be different in physical properties, they must differ in either composition, or connectivity, or both._

A disproof of either of these axioms would challenge the very groundwork of chemsitry as we know it. Aspirin molecules will take up arms against their bretheren and suddenly cause massive migranes. Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will either shed its carbon as a foreboding dark snow, or decide to crystallize apropos of nothing. Enzymes critical to cellular functioning cease to manufacture cell components and instead produce root beer flavoring concentrate. DNA molecules pool together in an ultradense lump at the center of the planet. Simultaneously, all the uranium present in the crust will decide it's skipping the queue and will all decay at once, irradiating humanity to a crisp in one massive wave of gamma radiation.

Or, uh, not. Anyway, If I were American, I'd be from Missouri - the "show me" state!


----------



## sheekle

G_Chem said:


> Yea and then folks like me who get magic product but the few times I’ve gotten imports they’ve been shit.  If magic loss happens so easy I’d be fried by now but I still get all of the good effects like I did when I was young.
> 
> I truly believe it’s regional based on the synthesis methods used by the chemists in that region.  And then of course some people just have better sources no matter where they live.
> 
> I came across an interesting post in the stimulants for of the Hive Archive.  It was from a guy asking essentially this same question but in regards to meth.
> 
> The guy claimed he had synthesized meth 4 completely different ways, each time resulting in a very different product from the next.  I could try and hunt it down again, but one thing he I remember was he said the product could range from lasting 7-30 hrs based on synth with different qualities for each as well.
> 
> This is why I also like having different batches of MD around, and why old ravers who exchange pills.  Even though it’s all MDMA, there’s variation and life is fun with variation..
> 
> -GC


All I know is i’ve never personally seen anyone say anything but good things about any Dutch MDMA in the past 5 years


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

sheekle said:


> All I know is i’ve never personally seen anyone say anything but good things about any Dutch MDMA in the past 5 years



Are you Dutch by any chance?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Yeh or meh?

Only one way to decide...

120mg dissolved in water at 21:35...


----------



## sekio

I'll send you telepathic good vibes.


----------



## No. 13 Baby

What's wrong? Some of it's not Dutch.


----------



## psy997

sheekle said:


> As far as psy997, how many times have you used other empathogens though?



Empathogens as defined by serotonin release or similar MOAs? No cathinones, 6-apb 5-7 times, AMT twice, Methylone 2-3 times. I think that's it.

I realize now, one route to explore re: possible explanations of the issues being individual could be stimulant use such as amphetamines. I've used low doses of adderall and vyvanse as prescribed for ADD over the course of 10+ years. Sometimes regularly for a few years, sometimes taking breaks for years in that period. I'd be surprised if this was a factor considering I can still feel magic with certain batches and other empathogens, and I've never used much amphetamine compared to recreational users. And there's lots of overlap between recreational amphetamine and MDMA users.


----------



## indigoaura

@F.U.B.A.R.  Update us man!!!! Sending those PLUR vibes!

"If you feel like the incredibly potent and pure MDMA these days has something missing, it’s likely the serotonin receptors for them to bind to."

If you read the FAQ linked on the first post, you would know that these effects are being noted by virgin and new MDMA users, not just washed up has beens like me. If it was just the old timers who were commenting on this, then it would seem likely that it is a personal body/brain issue. However, that is not the case.


----------



## sekio

Idea for a crossover study, to check expectation effects: given a stock of "known good" MDMA, and a stock of "known meh" MDMA, construct a double blind trial where each participant is randomly selected to be given either meh or magic, *but is also randomly told that they are taking either "meh" or "magic"*. Presumably the effects would correlate with either the stated quality, or the actual quality. Would be very interesting to see if this is all expectation effects. If it turns out that all you need to do is be told that your supply is "meh", maybe the "MehDMA" curse is just a big ol' meme, started when someone has a shitty roll from bad set/setting, and propagating via word of mouth.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> @F.U.B.A.R.  Update us man!!!! Sending those PLUR vibes!



Ok. Felt the first alerts after about 10 minutes. Knew straight away it wasnt going to be overwhelming. Straight away had an intense desire to redose (first sign of meh product - always want more but never get there). So after half an hour did another 90mg. Went very cold and sedated. No pupil dilation but nice body rushes and some eye wiggles. Felt slightly horny, but couldn't be arsed to do anything about it. Hit the 2 hour mark and I was fast asleep!

FML


----------



## TripSitterNZ

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Ok. Felt the first alerts after about 10 minutes. Knew straight away it wasnt going to be overwhelming. Straight away had an intense desire to redose (first sign of meh product - always want more but never get there). So after half an hour did another 90mg. Went very cold and sedated. No pupil dilation but nice body rushes and some eye wiggles. Felt slightly horny, but couldn't be arsed to do anything about it. Hit the 2 hour mark and I was fast asleep!
> 
> FML


Maybe i never felt meh i have seen product that looks like that before but avoided it due to just looking trash. My products hit me at 45 mins if i eat it and if it was a strong dosed pill 260 mg mdma in 2018 i took one at 5 pm and was at the end of my roll at 3 am with visuals darting along the roof after smoking so much weed the entire night. My eyes wide open pure darkness. 

I know even on the darknet the very good product is not easy to find and most importers keep it a secret so they can keep sourcing it. 

Im going to get a few grams of brownish rock mdma solid chucks not really crystals just pure raw rock form seeing as kgs of it is present atm in NZ. I also saw "mdma" that a crackhead was trying to sell but it almost looked like those fucking crystals new age hippies buy from those gysepy shops fucking strange looking product never trust crackheads selling drugs.


----------



## indigoaura

sekio said:


> Idea for a crossover study, to check expectation effects: given a stock of "known good" MDMA, and a stock of "known meh" MDMA, construct a double blind trial where each participant is randomly selected to be given either meh or magic, *but is also randomly told that they are taking either "meh" or "magic"*. Presumably the effects would correlate with either the stated quality, or the actual quality. Would be very interesting to see if this is all expectation effects. If it turns out that all you need to do is be told that your supply is "meh", maybe the "MehDMA" curse is just a big ol' meme, started when someone has a shitty roll from bad set/setting, and propagating via word of mouth.



Sekio...I really appreciate your scientific contributions, but sometimes...

Of course, a double blind study would provide valuable information, but that would be difficult to stage. 

Also, the first Meh experience I had was when a friend finally managed to obtain "molly." I had never had crystal MDMA before, and had always been told that molly was better than pills. In my area at the time, pills circulated everywhere but never crystal or powder. I expected it to be one of the best, cleanest, most amazing rolls of my life. So, I was very confused and surprised when it was the opposite. Since then, there have been many occasions where I expected product to be great, and it wasn't. Way back when, there were times when I could only eat half a pill for whatever reason and expected to barely roll and "rolled balls." My personal experiences have not shown any correlation between expectation and result.


----------



## indigoaura

@F.U.B.A.R. I did not want to say it before and send you bad vibes, but your product looks a lot like some dw product I had awhile back that produced similar results.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

There are also various cathiones mixed into mdma so it passes regnant test but a quick test with a IR machine  will show other cuts popping up.  People have almost died here from Eutylone been passed off as mdma or mixed into it. But their is alot of new cathione RCs coming out of china with no human reports on that are unidentified atm Via IR/GCMS


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> @F.U.B.A.R. I did not want to say it before and send you bad vibes, but your product looks a lot like some dw product I had awhile back that produced similar results.



Yeh, I've had the cola stuff before and found it a bit meh then. But as we all know, colour is no indication of quality.

(But it's a bloody good guide)


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> As for the 2CB...in my experience, taking 2CB after Meh product is horrible. Very negative. Headaches, overwhelming, unpleasant. I always heard how great it was, but that combo is BAD. I thought I was going to have to call an ambulance once when I mixed MehDMA + 2CB with the MehDMA first. Now, the flip side of that is that 2CB first actually seemed to reduce some of the negative effects of the MehDMA. This just makes me think there is something going on with receptor affinity.



That sounds horrible. It should definitely not be happening. All psychs that I've flipped have always added greatly to the experience.
It almost seems to me that your MehMDA is barely MDMA at all. Except that you had your batch tested. 
I'm suspecting that your batch may heavily cut with some sort of RC stim that is somehow passing your testing.


----------



## psy997

TripSitterNZ said:


> There are also various cathiones mixed into mdma so it passes regnant test but a quick test with a IR machine  will show other cuts popping up.  People have almost died here from Eutylone been passed off as mdma or mixed into it. But their is alot of new cathione RCs coming out of china with no human reports on that are unidentified atm Via IR/GCMS



Again, irrelevant here.

@sekio thank you. I actually think it's doable for someone here with access to both good and bad product to do it. I think the biggest obstacle is getting enough people to run the thing. If anyone here has access to both and could round up maybe ten people that are willing, that would be sufficient for a first go, I imagine. You'll of course need a bit more than ten to run it double blinded properly. And, it's doable.

Of course, it's possible we could convince another group to attempt it, albeit difficult logistically and legally.


----------



## G_Chem

I believe I have some “meh-dma” that I could try this with..  Just gonna be hard to find some people I’m willing to do this with cuz the people close to mecthat roll I prefer not to give them shit product.

I could try it on myself though...  Dissolve both doses in water and then have someone else blind administer them to me, then see if I can feel the difference.

Problem is I don’t really like to experiment too much on myself with empathogens cuz it burns up my yearly uses which I max at 6-8 a year.


In regards to that FUBAR product, looks too blocky.  I had a feeling it was gonna be sub par.

-GC


----------



## sekio

> I think the biggest obstacle is getting enough people to run the thing



It's not the ideal case, but a sample size of n=2 people could be enough to conduct a preliminary study. I'm thinking it'd span over a reasonably long period of time, maybe 3 months or so? Space the doses out with 3-4 weeks in between, and give 3-4 different trials. The dose, ROA, and environment should remain constant. It should be set up so each participant recieves both meh and magic over the duration of the study, to ensure that both types of M get a fair representation. Of course, more data is better. I can't imagine it would be that terribly difficult to get some people to volunteer to take MDMA and hang out in a beanbag chair watching 2001 or something.

Study participants should be given an overnight fast and a light breakfast, a urine drug screen (no sense in having interferences from other drugs), measurement of vitals, then followed by adminsitration of the test drug at e.g. 10AM. The test is conducted in the same location, which ideally should be comparable to the setting of other psychedelic therapy settings. Beanbag chairs, lava lamps, art on the walls, y;know -  a chillout space, basically. Provide activities to keep the MDMA-addled subjects entertained for 6-8h. During the experience, data could be collected to validate the effects profile(s), either psychometrics, biometrics, or just narrative experiences. Upon conclusion of the experience the participants are once again checked and then released to go home.

Then three weeks later, we do it all over again, with a new set of randomized capsules. Repeat another two times or so, or as needed to provide the stastical significance. (I don't see a need to include a placebo, but that could be given too, if you feel like it.)

Yes, this is a *very* involved study. Probably outside of what the average BLer is capable of organizing. (Anyone wanna talk to MAPS?) I think that it'd be worth the investment in time and effort. Think of the prestige, being able to say you knew what the difference between Meh and MDMA was, and have the data to prove it exactly! Even if it provides a null result, you'd be giving people free empathogens, and furthering science as you do it.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

sekio said:


> It's not the ideal case, but a sample size of n=2 people could be enough to conduct a preliminary study. I'm thinking it'd span over a reasonably long period of time, maybe 3 months or so? Space the doses out with 3-4 weeks in between, and give 3-4 different trials. The dose, ROA, and environment should remain constant. It should be set up so each participant recieves both meh and magic over the duration of the study, to ensure that both types of M get a fair representation. Of course, more data is better. I can't imagine it would be that terribly difficult to get some people to volunteer to take MDMA and hang out in a beanbag chair watching 2001 or something.
> 
> Study participants should be given an overnight fast and a light breakfast, a urine drug screen (no sense in having interferences from other drugs), measurement of vitals, then followed by adminsitration of the test drug at e.g. 10AM. The test is conducted in the same location, which ideally should be comparable to the setting of other psychedelic therapy settings. Beanbag chairs, lava lamps, art on the walls, y;know -  a chillout space, basically. Provide activities to keep the MDMA-addled subjects entertained for 6-8h. During the experience, data could be collected to validate the effects profile(s), either psychometrics, biometrics, or just narrative experiences. Upon conclusion of the experience the participants are once again checked and then released to go home.
> 
> Then three weeks later, we do it all over again, with a new set of randomized capsules. Repeat another two times or so, or as needed to provide the stastical significance. (I don't see a need to include a placebo, but that could be given too, if you feel like it.)
> 
> Yes, this is a *very* involved study. Probably outside of what the average BLer is capable of organizing. (Anyone wanna talk to MAPS?) I think that it'd be worth the investment in time and effort. Think of the prestige, being able to say you knew what the difference between Meh and MDMA was, and have the data to prove it exactly! Even if it provides a null result, you'd be giving people free empathogens, and furthering science as you do it.




Reporting for duty Sarge...


----------



## MBaggott

TripSitterNZ said:


> Nick sands mentioned it somewhere in a open fourm at talks he would give...


If Nick said this, he must have been referring to an observation that 2C-B could help him feel better after MDMA. There aren't any studies giving reason to think it would be protective against serotonergic neurotoxicity. Indeed, studies with other psychedelics would make us predict 2C-B would enhance MDMA's serotonergic neurotoxicity.  I'd bet on alpha lipoic acid and other antioxidants being helpful over 2C-B.

(I would note that I don't think we can assume aftereffects = neurotoxicity. Most animal neurotoxicity studies wait 2 weeks after dosing to make brain measures in order to try to only measure long-term changes; they usually make no measures in the time when transient aftereffects would occur. So we don't know much about the transient state of the brain after MDMA.)


----------



## MBaggott

An above-ground publishable (in conventional journals) MDMA study with human participants would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. An above-ground publishable rat MDMA drug discrimination study would be in the tens of thousands, although a null result would be less definitive. An underground unpublishable MDMA study would just be effort and cost of materials.


----------



## psy997

I really think we should focus on doing this.


----------



## G_Chem

Hey guys,

So a long while back someone posted a link to a series of pages which were essentially reports of ecstasy pills ranging from very late 1990’s to early 2000’s.  In it they discuss their reagent reactions, the look of the press, as well as a brief description of effects.

Could anyone link that or remember that? Really not keen on hunting back through 200 pages but I’ll do it if I have to.

-GC


----------



## rainey

I have researched this subject for years now and many may argue but I KNOW what the difference is. Ecstasy/mdma is no longer made with saffrole it is made with pmk glycidate and umpteen other derivitives which have been analysed and named on this forum by people who know what they are talking about. The recipe has changed. Saffrole produced all the effects that are now missing. Make it with saffrole and all those great effects will come back but no-one will do that as its so cheap to use the alternatives so that's it. FINISHED. Hope I am wrong!


----------



## sekio

You know that PMK glycidate can be produced from safrole, right? In fact, MDP2P/PMK are also derived from safrole, usually. (The other options would be via piperonal, or constructing your own safrole from methylenedioxybenzene & allyl-chloride or w/e)


----------



## indigoaura

Unfortunately, @rainey, we have had several posters use MDMA that was supposedly produced with safrole, but the effects were meh. 

I think a huge danger with attempting this kind of study is that if you give people Meh-DMA and then one of those people experiences a long term comedown, or heaven forbid, ends up at a doctor's office or hospital, then you are in a world of hurt. That is extensive jail time. You were knowingly administering something that you believed was NOT MDMA or was contaminated MDMA. 

@G_Chem Is this what you were thinking of? http://ecstasy.org/testing/db/current.html


----------



## sekio

> I think a huge danger with attempting this kind of study is that if you give people Meh-DMA and then one of those people experiences a long term comedown, or heaven forbid, ends up at a doctor's office or hospital, then you are in a world of hurt.



That's why I'd require all study participants to be informed of potential risks, and sign a waiver acknowledging such. I'd think waivers would be mandatory for any sort of grey-area psychedelic research, they provide at leas a cursory level of legal ass-covering. 

Here's a hard question for you logicians: if the Meh-DMA and MDMA are shown to be similar/identical on GCMS, would it still be considered giving the subjects "contaminated" MDMA if existing analytical tools all failed to demonstrate any difference from MDMA? I think it would be downright hilarious if at the end of the day nobody could prove anything, Meh and MDMA test the same on GCMS, and have similat impurity profiles... where would we go from there? Isotopic ratio profiling? "This MDMA has too much Carbon-13! / Deuterated MDMA gives the best rolls!"? Or maybe a return to spiritualism?

After all, this should be the One Study To Rule Them All: if it's conducted I want it to be foolproof and to nail down with certainty the difference between Meh and MDMA. Having a crack team of volunteers all willing to push the bounds of pharmacy and logic and live with the risks would be a requirement.


----------



## G_Chem

sekio said:


> You know that PMK glycidate can be produced from safrole, right? In fact, MDP2P/PMK are also derived from safrole, usually. (The other options would be via piperonal, or constructing your own safrole from methylenedioxybenzene & allyl-chloride or w/e)



Most MDP2P and MDP2P glycidate is from piperonal these days, safrole is used rarely in comparison.



indigoaura said:


> Unfortunately, @rainey, we have had several posters use MDMA that was supposedly produced with safrole, but the effects were meh.
> 
> I think a huge danger with attempting this kind of study is that if you give people Meh-DMA and then one of those people experiences a long term comedown, or heaven forbid, ends up at a doctor's office or hospital, then you are in a world of hurt. That is extensive jail time. You were knowingly administering something that you believed was NOT MDMA or was contaminated MDMA.
> 
> @G_Chem Is this what you were thinking of? http://ecstasy.org/testing/db/current.html



That it is, thank you Indigo 



sekio said:


> That's why I'd require all study participants to be informed of potential risks, and sign a waiver acknowledging such. I'd think waivers would be mandatory for any sort of grey-area psychedelic research, they provide at leas a cursory level of legal ass-covering.
> 
> Here's a hard question for you logicians: if the Meh-DMA and MDMA are shown to be similar/identical on GCMS, would it still be considered giving the subjects "contaminated" MDMA if existing analytical tools all failed to demonstrate any difference from MDMA? I think it would be downright hilarious if at the end of the day nobody could prove anything, Meh and MDMA test the same on GCMS, and have similat impurity profiles... where would we go from there? Isotopic ratio profiling? "This MDMA has too much Carbon-13! / Deuterated MDMA gives the best rolls!"? Or maybe a return to spiritualism?
> 
> After all, this should be the One Study To Rule Them All: if it's conducted I want it to be foolproof and to nail down with certainty the difference between Meh and MDMA. Having a crack team of volunteers all willing to push the bounds of pharmacy and logic and live with the risks would be a requirement.



It’s the risk of LTC that worries me as well.  For myself and others... I have theorized (and still do) that the rise in LTC cases correlated with this supposed change in effects/synthesis route.

I’d forever hate myself if I accidentally ruined someone.  Hence why the 1-2 potential “meh” batches sit in the back of the closet.  Too scared to do anything more with them.

-GC


----------



## Buzz Lightbeer

My second roll was at a festival (I had barely any idea about drugs and me and my friend just had a gram of MDMA given to us by a friend, he had taken it for 3 days in a row and wanted rid of it after a strong LSD trip).

It was a classic mehDMA roll, and I had never even heard of the concept, I was at a killer DJ set but my body and limbs felt so heavy, didn't want to talk to anyone, we didn't understand why it was like this and kept taking more, just dancing deep in thought for the whole night. It was also his second roll. Very different from a magical first half a year before. 

Just some context, I've had magic and shit rolls intermittent of each other and it's easy to tell the difference, even when just observing, but I've never had my own good MDMA stash.


----------



## indigoaura

@Buzz Lightbeer 

"Just some context, I've had magic and shit rolls intermittent of each other and it's easy to tell the difference, even when just observing, but I've never had my own good MDMA stash."

Yes, I agree that it is easy to tell the difference. A phrase that I keep using is "completely different effects profiles." It is not the same at all.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

Just dropped 150mg of the batch I did a reagent test comparison on a few pages back, with a 100mg booster on deck for later.

I’ll report back tomorrow.


----------



## indigoaura

Report back tonight, @opposable-thumbs! 

Although, I can't say I am the best at evaluating anything mid-roll. 

If this is the same product I used, I am glad you are testing the same dose. Starting at 150 was my dosage as well, since the lab test showed it was only 80% MDMA.


----------



## dextroisomer

I assume it has to do with the isomers when it's being synthesized. I think that if the isomers are not properly created with the original synthesis, then it changes all of its effects.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> As for the 2CB...in my experience, taking 2CB after Meh product is horrible. Very negative. Headaches, overwhelming, unpleasant. I always heard how great it was, but that combo is BAD.


When I was reading through this entire thread, I remember some guy writing that Meh MDMA taken with some drug X, produced completely different effects than the same drug taken with the magic MDMA.  The difference was so stark that it enabled for easy differentiation.
I do not remember whether X = 2CB.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

opposable-thumbs said:


> Just dropped 150mg of the batch I did a reagent test comparison on a few pages back, with a 100mg booster on deck for later.
> 
> I’ll report back tomorrow.



C'mon man, how was it?

What did it look like? Although appearance isn't supposed to be an indicator of quality, I do find it a decent guide.


----------



## user666

Mychemromance said:


> I assume it has to do with the isomers when it's being synthesized.


What kind of isomers?  There are many types...
What chemical process can generate them?  What kind of testing can miss them ?

Did you read the posts in this thread about this issue ?


----------



## opposable-thumbs

I’d say it was halfway between magic and meh. Definitely better than anything else I’ve had in the past few years, but not amazing like truly magic stuff is.

Some pupil dilation
Mild nystagmus
Some enhanced empathy and openness
Some jaw grinding
More stimulating than couch-locking
Sex was good but not wow good like magic
No enhanced touch
Music sounded the same

So most of the effects were there, just very muted, like being on the very tail end of the come up, just before peaking but never quite getting there.

My wife said she enjoyed that batch and would do it again in 3-4 months, I’m on the fence.

Edit to add that on magic MDMA my wife chews the living shit out of the inside of her mouth, no matter how much gum or anything else she uses to try to stop it, but doesn’t on meh.

She didn’t chew her mouth last night.


----------



## psy997

user666 said:


> When I was reading through this entire thread, I remember some guy writing that Meh MDMA taken with some drug X, produced completely different effects than the same drug taken with the magic MDMA.  The difference was so stark that it enabled for easy differentiation.
> I do not remember whether X = 2CB.



Well, it's 100% doable to differentiate between Meh and Magic if you dose while already on a psychedelic. Meh absolutely ruins trips for me and turns them from magic, subtly attuned, soul affirming experiences to bland, boring, and irritable ones.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I had another go on mine last night. Upped the dose to 250mg and was just fuckin bored. Any of the desirable effects experienced on the previous night were totally gone. I dont think I even made it to the 2 hour mark before crashing out. Total meh!


----------



## dextroisomer

user666 said:


> What kind of isomers?  There are many types...
> What chemical process can generate them?  What kind of testing can miss them ?
> 
> Did you read the posts in this thread about this issue ?
> I don't think their is a test to determine the S and R isomers.
> If safrole is used I read, is hard to obtain. This is what I have read.


----------



## indigoaura

opposable-thumbs said:


> I’d say it was halfway between magic and meh. Definitely better than anything else I’ve had in the past few years, but not amazing like truly magic stuff is.
> 
> Some pupil dilation
> Mild nystagmus
> Some enhanced empathy and openness
> Some jaw grinding
> More stimulating than couch-locking
> Sex was good but not wow good like magic
> No enhanced touch
> Music sounded the same
> 
> So most of the effects were there, just very muted, like being on the very tail end of the come up, just before peaking but never quite getting there.
> 
> My wife said she enjoyed that batch and would do it again in 3-4 months, I’m on the fence.
> 
> Edit to add that on magic MDMA my wife chews the living shit out of the inside of her mouth, no matter how much gum or anything else she uses to try to stop it, but doesn’t on meh.
> 
> She didn’t chew her mouth last night.



Well, this was almost exactly my experience. So, honestly, glad to know it was not just me. There is hope for me yet!

"More stimulating than couch-locking" This one was 50/50 for me. I found it a bit more pro-social and stimulating on NYE (possibly due to the setting), and found it very couch locking the last time I tried it. 

I think I even used the phrase halfway between magic and meh when I posted about it after NYE. I was less pleased the second time I tried it, and felt like it was most likely just a highly clean meh product. I agree that there is a minimal amount of openness, but the enhanced touch and musical appreciation are just not there at all. Sex was good, yes, but when is sex not good? I didn't feel like it made it that much better than normal. There was no significant loss of inhibition like there usually is with MDMA. 

I wonder if the product is inconsistent. I may try cleaning it further or re-crystallizing it myself at some point.

Please post and let me know if you or your wife experience nausea/indigestion starting tomorrow.

@F.U.B.A.R. It looks like white table salt. Very teeny-tiny white crystals.


----------



## user666

Mychemromance said:


> I don't think there is a test to determine the S and R isomers.


Have you ever heard of a polarimeter ?

Did you read the posts in this thread about this issue ?  There was a guy that tested the stereoisomer ratios with a second method, too, so more than one test for this ratio exists.



Mychemromance said:


> If safrole is used I read, is hard to obtain. This is what I have read.


Yes, it is harder to obtain, but other precursors can take its place.
How are the other precursors responsible for Meh MDMA when they go through the same PMK step as the synth from Safrole?


----------



## thegreenhand

Sorry I know this isn't exactly about solving our problem but I'm curious if anyone else has had the same dilemma I'm having now.

I have quite a few friends who have decided they want to try MDMA for the first time. They are interested in the healing properties of it. I recently acquired 1 g of some crystal. Yet to run any tests on it but I'll probably just be doing some reagent tests as I'm too broke to use Energy Control or Drugs Data.

My concern is that if I give my friends this drug it and it's some shit mehDMA they will have the therapeutic experience ruined. I'm not trying to be their psychologist but I do love and care for these people and I don't want to let them down. Is the best option just to try it myself and wait the 2-3 months until I can do it again with them?


----------



## indigoaura

thegreenhand said:


> Sorry I know this isn't exactly about solving our problem but I'm curious if anyone else has had the same dilemma I'm having now.
> 
> I have quite a few friends who have decided they want to try MDMA for the first time. They are interested in the healing properties of it. I recently acquired 1 g of some crystal. Yet to run any tests on it but I'll probably just be doing some reagent tests as I'm too broke to use Energy Control or Drugs Data.
> 
> My concern is that if I give my friends this drug it and it's some shit mehDMA they will have the therapeutic experience ruined. I'm not trying to be their psychologist but I do love and care for these people and I don't want to let them down. Is the best option just to try it myself and wait the 2-3 months until I can do it again with them?



I also have a relative who I would like to introduce, but I have not been willing to do it because I have not ever found decent product. I would not give anyone anything without you trying it first. If it is Meh, their whole impression of MDMA will be ruined. Some years back I introduced someone to MehDMA and they were completely unimpressed. They had no previous experience to compare it to, and were just totally disinterested in it. At that time in my journey, I assumed I had just lost the magic and that she would have a great time since she was new to the product, but that was not the case at all.


----------



## user666

thegreenhand said:


> My concern is that if I give my friends this drug it and it's some shit mehDMA they will have the therapeutic experience ruined.


Yes



thegreenhand said:


> I'm not trying to be their psychologist but I do love and care for these people and I don't want to let them down. Is the best option just to try it myself and wait the 2-3 months until I can do it again with them?


Yes, or test it on some people that you do not care about (with informed consent, of course).



thegreenhand said:


> Yet to run any tests on it but I'll probably just be doing some reagent tests as I'm too broke to use Energy Control or Drugs Data.


The entire point of this thread is that you cannot be sure that you don't have the Meh MDMA even if you send it to Energy Control or Drugs Data.
We suspect, that they do not perform the full GCMS analysis diligently and *we are certain *they do not test the MDMA with a polarimeter nor do they determine the salt type ( they just assume the Hydrochloride ).

Also, reportedly it is possible to convert Meh MDMA to Magic MDMA by doing this:





















more...
https://youtu.be/nDsNmeUrWQ0
https://youtu.be/R491QOnkmCs
https://youtu.be/yig3QCfBTzc
https://youtu.be/ukOFivS7xhA








						Column chromatography
					

This video shows how to perform a homemade column chromatography in order to separate the main components of a sample




					youtu.be
				




...but because clean MDMA salt is not colored, you will need UV light to see it.


_For the purposes of resolving this mystery, the leftovers remaining after running the column are more valuable than the clean magic MDMA.
Most likely these leftovers can be tested and shipped legally because they do not contain a controlled substance._


----------



## thegreenhand

user666 said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> Yes, or test it on some people that you do not care about.
> 
> 
> The entire point of this thread is that you cannot be sure that you don't have the Meh MDMA even if you send it to Energy Control or Drugs Data.
> 
> Reportedly it is possible to clean Meh MDMA by doing this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/nDsNmeUrWQ0
> https://youtu.be/R491QOnkmCs
> https://youtu.be/yig3QCfBTzc
> https://youtu.be/ukOFivS7xhA
> 
> ...but because MDMA is not colored you will need UV light to see it.


Yes I am aware of the point of the thread, I just wanted to see if others had thoughts on my dilemma thats all


----------



## thegreenhand

indigoaura said:


> I also have a relative who I would like to introduce, but I have not been willing to do it because I have not ever found decent product. I would not give anyone anything without you trying it first. If it is Meh, their whole impression of MDMA will be ruined. Some years back I introduced someone to MehDMA and they were completely unimpressed. They had no previous experience to compare it to, and were just totally disinterested in it. At that time in my journey, I assumed I had just lost the magic and that she would have a great time since she was new to the product, but that was not the case at all.


Ok good to know I'm not alone in that thinking. Most of the talk in here is about personal use which obviously doesn't have the same ramifications. Just was looking for others thoughts, I appreciate it


----------



## indigoaura

> Also, reportedly it is possible to convert Meh MDMA to Magic MDMA by doing this:



I have to correct this. It MIGHT be possible to convert Meh to  Magic through column chromatography.

We have not had anyone successfully do this. Vash claimed to have cleaned up test results by doing this, but he never consumed or saw someone else consume the cleaned product to comment on whether the effects changed because the product was "misplaced."

Until someone runs column chromatography on a meh sample, then tries the cleaned meh and finds the results to be magic, we cannot claim that it would definitively work.

This would only work if meh product is caused by a contaminant. If something other than a contaminant is causing the problems, then a column would probably not correct it.


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So a long while back someone posted a link to a series of pages which were essentially reports of ecstasy pills ranging from very late 1990’s to early 2000’s.  In it they discuss their reagent reactions, the look of the press, as well as a brief description of effects.
> 
> Could anyone link that or remember that? Really not keen on hunting back through 200 pages but I’ll do it if I have to.
> 
> -GC


Hey mate. Could that have been myself? Here is a link to the site I shared anyway:

http://www.ecstasy.org/testing/index.html


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 

Thanks for posting those videos. I am watching them now.

It seems to me that I can proceed by:

Purchasing a chromatography column
Purchasing silica gel
Then, I would basically load the column with cotton/sand/silica/solvent.

Then I would need to add the MehDMA to the column, and allow it to separate as it runs through. I would need a UV light to see the MDMA separate from any contaminant. Then, I use beakers or other glassware to catch the separated compounds. 

I am going to watch more videos, but here are a few of my questions so far:

1. What solvent would be ideal to mix the silica with for this specific purpose?
2. Should I dissolve the MehDMA in water or some other liquid before pouring it through the column?
3. Once I have the separated MDMA in a beaker, how would I go about removing the solvent and re-crystalizing?
4. How would I dry the contaminant so it could be sent to a lab?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> 1. What solvent would be ideal to mix the silica with for this specific purpose?


I think the local chemistry experts should answer that, e.g. sekio, vector, etc...  but the solvent should be very clean IMO.
I would not be surprised if they suggest some mixture of solvents.



indigoaura said:


> 2. Should I dissolve the MehDMA in water or some other liquid before pouring it through the column?


I don't think it should be water. I think it should be that solvent in 1



indigoaura said:


> 3. Once I have the separated MDMA in a beaker, how would I go about removing the solvent and re-crystalizing?


Pour it on a clean sheet of glass and let it evaporate while protecting it from dust.  Scrape the dried residue off with a razor blade. The pros would probably elevate the temperature a little and pull a vacuum in some sealed vessel because it makes it faster.



indigoaura said:


> 4. How would I dry the contaminant so it could be sent to a lab?


The same way as  in 3



indigoaura said:


> I would need a UV light to see the MDMA separate from any contaminant.


Contaminants can be colorless too, so UV might be needed to see them too.
I think it is important that the UV light source does not emit any visible light. Maybe *this one*.
The chemistry experts can probably make an educated suggestion what wavelength the UV needs to be to fluoresce these molecules and not be blocked by the glass of the column.


----------



## PlayHard

So what im reading in here as of lately is, its mainly all meh mda around like a offline friend was already saying? Hoping to get my mits on something worthy asap. Photos and test results to follow, aswell as a report . Good to see this topic is still alive and I still see familar posters posting. @G_Chem and co. Lost all my photos of that fine glass I was sat on back when I was posting in here, and it's all since long gone so :/ people's verdict? Any good magical stuff to be had.


----------



## indigoaura

Ok, chemistry experts. Advise me. Tell me what to buy. Looks like I need a chromatography column, solvent, silica, and a UV light. (Bonus points if I can also use the UV light to sterilize my cell phone...LOL)

If both the presumed contaminant and the MDMA are colorless and only visible with UV light, then how do I tell them apart? Is it just a matter of how quickly they move through the silica?


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> If both the presumed contaminant and the MDMA are colorless and only visible with UV light, then how do I tell them apart? Is it just a matter of how quickly they move through the silica?


I can answer this one!
The MDMA fraction would be the largest one because it would represents the majority ingredient of the mixture in the Meh MDMA powder.

If you are not dealing with Molly but with a tablet, then the excipient might be the largest fraction. However dissolving it in a proper solvent will dissolve the MDMA and leave the excipient behind as a solid when you filter it.
Anyway, you can always put a little of that dried fraction in a reagent like the Marquis and confirm that it reacts like MDMA - excipients will not.

Side note:
_I would suggest that any newbie first practices separating a mixture of cheap products like aspirin and paracetamol and/or ibuprofen....and then graduate to the expensive stuff for real._


----------



## rainey

user666 said:


> How are the other precursors responsible for Meh MDMA when they go through the same PMK step as the synth from Safrole?



Remember the worldwide shortage of E just before 2009 roughly? The authorities found and destroyed a huge amount of saffrole I think it was about 150 tonnes of it.

When E started to come back on the scene again in the uk London was the first place it appeared and instead of £3 a pill (like it had been), the price was now £25 a pill and all the ravers said the same thing "its not the same any more" and the word was that it was because it wasn't saffrole any more but a synthetic version. That was the end of E. It has never ever been the same since. I don't know anything about chemistry etc all I know is that it changed forever. 7 or 8 years later I found an old stash of pills from back pre 2009 and there it was again full scale magic, so I proved to myself, finally, that it was not "loss of magic" it was "change of recipe"


----------



## user666

rainey said:


> Remember the worldwide shortage of E just before 2009 roughly?


Yes, I remember and I notice the correlation.
However correlation is not causation.



rainey said:


> I don't know anything about chemistry etc all I know is that it changed forever. 7 or 8 years later I found an old stash of pills from back pre 2009 and there it was again full scale magic, so I proved to myself, finally, that it was not "loss of magic" it was "change of recipe"


That is a valid but subjective proof to you that there is a difference.  To make it objective you'd need to feed one and the other kind to virgin users and measure their responses in an objective manner.
For all it's worth, I have my own subjective proof, but I would like to take it to the objective level, so the serious chemists can take us seriously and do a full and diligent comparison between the Meh MDMA and Magic MDMA using some kind of combination of chromatographic and spectroscopic techniques.

The only way this situation is going to change is when we learn what the culprit is exactly.

P.S.
You must learn some chemistry to be a valuable contributor to this discussion and avoid annoying some members here.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

indigoaura said:


> Well, this was almost exactly my experience. So, honestly, glad to know it was not just me. There is hope for me yet!
> 
> "More stimulating than couch-locking" This one was 50/50 for me. I found it a bit more pro-social and stimulating on NYE (possibly due to the setting), and found it very couch locking the last time I tried it.
> 
> I think I even used the phrase halfway between magic and meh when I posted about it after NYE. I was less pleased the second time I tried it, and felt like it was most likely just a highly clean meh product. I agree that there is a minimal amount of openness, but the enhanced touch and musical appreciation are just not there at all. Sex was good, yes, but when is sex not good? I didn't feel like it made it that much better than normal. There was no significant loss of inhibition like there usually is with MDMA.
> 
> I wonder if the product is inconsistent. I may try cleaning it further or re-crystallizing it myself at some point.
> 
> Please post and let me know if you or your wife experience nausea/indigestion starting tomorrow.
> 
> @F.U.B.A.R. It looks like white table salt. Very teeny-tiny white crystals.



No nausea or indigestion for me, but my wife got home from work today and said she felt nauseous all day. 

So far neither of us feel any post-MDMA blues, but we are both exhausted.

Think I'm done with "MDMA".
Both of our jobs require a high level of mental capacity and the physical and mental tiredness in the days after meh product (which is all I've been able to find for the past several years) just isn't worth it to me.


----------



## indigoaura

> I found an old stash of pills from back pre 2009 and there it was again full scale magic, so I proved to myself, finally, that it was not "loss of magic" it was "change of recipe"



This is my wet dream, for real. Rumor has it that an acquaintance of mine found an old bottle of pills, but he denies it. I would pay so much money for that stash!


----------



## indigoaura

opposable-thumbs said:


> No nausea or indigestion for me, but my wife got home from work today and said she felt nauseous all day.
> 
> So far neither of us feel any post-MDMA blues, but we are both exhausted.
> 
> Think I'm done with "MDMA".
> Both of our jobs require a high level of mental capacity and the physical and mental tiredness in the days after meh product (which is all I've been able to find for the past several years) just isn't worth it to me.



I have found that I need a 3 day weekend to really be able to deal with it. If I don't have the 3 day weekend, my ability to function at work is hindered, and I will usually end up calling in one day due to the nausea aspect. 

Hold on to your product. If I run mine through the chromatography column and find that the effects change, I will let you know and you may be able to repeat the procedure with your batch.


----------



## indigoaura

@sekio and @vecktor Any advice on which solvent to use to run a chromatography column on MDMA?


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> @sekio and @vecktor Any advice on which solvent to use to run a chromatography column on MDMA?


...and what wavelength the UV needs to be to fluoresce these molecules (incl. contaminants) and *not* be blocked by the glass of the column.


----------



## sekio

> Any advice on which solvent to use to run a chromatography column on MDMA?



That would depend on what sort of impurities you were seperating. Usually, what works well for a TLC plate, will also work on a larger scale, all other factors held constant,



> ...and what wavelength the UV needs to be to fluoresce these molecules (incl. contaminants) and not be blocked by the glass of the column.



Depends on what kind of glass the column is. I don't think MDMA is fluorescent though, at any wavelength. Usually the UV visualization on TLC plates comes from the fluorescence of the silica itself: the compounds are visualized because they have a quenching/supressing effect on flourescence. That is, you see dark spots on a bright background. I think you can buy fluorescent silica for big columns, look into it.

Back in the olden days, people would run columns solely "by feel" and without visualization. Collect and number all your fractions. Test every Nth one on TLC with staining to see the seperation. Be patient and diligent. _Arbeit macht frei_, ya know?.


----------



## rainey

user666 said:


> Yes, I remember and I notice the correlation.
> However correlation is not causation.
> 
> 
> That is a valid but subjective proof to you that there is a difference.  To make it objective you'd need to feed one and the other kind to virgin users and measure their responses in an objective manner.
> For all it's worth, I have my own subjective proof, but I would like to take it to the objective level, so the serious chemists can take us seriously and do a full and diligent comparison between the Meh MDMA and Magic MDMA using some kind of combination of chromatographic and spectroscopic techniques.
> 
> The only way this situation is going to change is when we learn what the culprit is exactly.
> 
> P.S.
> You must learn some chemistry to be a valuable contributor to this discussion and avoid annoying some members here.




You've been here ten minutes and you think you have the right to tell me what I should and should not do?

I've been here 10 years and I will contribute to whatever thread I like whether it annoys conceited arseholes like you or not.

Hope that's clear enough for you.

Tosser!


----------



## user666

rainey said:


> You've been here ten minutes and you think you have the right to tell me what I should and should not do?


Yes, because quality is more important than quantity.



rainey said:


> I've been here 10 years and I will contribute to whatever thread I like whether it annoys conceited arseholes like you or not.


I am not the only one.
10 years and you haven't learned the basics of chemistry?


----------



## mrsmokeweed

rainey said:


> Remember the worldwide shortage of E just before 2009 roughly? The authorities found and destroyed a huge amount of saffrole I think it was about 150 tonnes of it.
> 
> When E started to come back on the scene again in the uk London was the first place it appeared and instead of £3 a pill (like it had been), the price was now £25 a pill and all the ravers said the same thing "its not the same any more" and the word was that it was because it wasn't saffrole any more but a synthetic version. That was the end of E. It has never ever been the same since. I don't know anything about chemistry etc all I know is that it changed forever. 7 or 8 years later I found an old stash of pills from back pre 2009 and there it was again full scale magic, so I proved to myself, finally, that it was not "loss of magic" it was "change of recipe"


I would disagree as I had extremely quality euro and US pills up until idk 2013? Then I stopped for a while, came back in 2018 and it was just hyper dosed meh,

Though I found some legit MDA beans around my way!


----------



## indigoaura

@sekio Your chemistry knowledge is much more advanced than mine. I do not know the best solvents for TLC. I also do not understand what you mean when you say that you could do it without a visual. Would you just release the smallest amount into every glass vial? I feel like I would be likely to fuck that up without a visual. 

Would you recommend buying the fluorescent silica instead of buying a UV lamp?

I can buy any type of column. What kind of glass do you recommend? I see them priced on Amazon from $50 up to $200 or more. 

Bottom line: I am willing to throw down $ and buy whatever I need to buy in order to run a proper column on the Meh-DMA to test whether running a column will change the end result. I recognize that my knowledge is not to the level it needs to be to decide what to purchase. Would someone please advise and direct me to the proper purchases?


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 and @rainey - Appreciate both of your contributions, but no need to bring negativity into the thread.

I don't think the long-time posters here have any issue with people who post without chemistry knowledge. There have been a lot of anecdotal posters in this thread over the years who have not been able to contribute with specific chemistry knowledge, but they added to the value of the thread nonetheless. What people get frustrated with, in my opinion, is people who come on and ask the same questions that have already been addressed many, many, many times, or people who are just outright rude and disrespectful and throwing around a lot of shade.


----------



## Negi

I'd be very interested in someone doing a survey of what year people feel the "mehDMA" arrived. One of the reasons I'm skeptical of it is that everyone seems to say the majority of MDMA became crap at a different time (I've heard as late as 2015). It would be interesting to see that graphed against when people started rolling and the total number/frequency of rolls before the "mehDMA" hit.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Negi said:


> I'd be very interested in someone doing a survey of what year people feel the "mehDMA" arrived. One of the reasons I'm skeptical of it is that everyone seems to say the majority of MDMA became crap at a different time (I've heard as late as 2015). It would be interesting to see that graphed against when people started rolling and the total number/frequency of rolls before the "mehDMA" hit.


They simply don't know because its been made with PMK way before they started to blame PMK or PMK glycidate for the reason. MDMA is still been made the same as it has been for the last 17-20 years.


----------



## indigoaura

> I'd be very interested in someone doing a survey of what year people feel the "mehDMA" arrived. One of the reasons I'm skeptical of it is that everyone seems to say the majority of MDMA became crap at a different time (I've heard as late as 2015). It would be interesting to see that graphed against when people started rolling and the total number/frequency of rolls before the "mehDMA" hit.



I think there are too many regional variations for this to yield relevant data, but it would be interesting to see. I can add it to my chart as I go through the thread and document all of the anecdotal reports. Just from memory, there are people in the thread who only run into Meh-DMA sometimes, so it is not as simple as there being one point on a timeline that users suddenly can only find Meh-DMA. A lot of the posters here still encounter Magic MDMA from time to time, others mostly encounter Magic MDMA and only sometimes run into MehDMA. Then you also have new users who have only experienced Meh-DMA. 

I would guess it all comes down to who is importing the product and where it is coming from. Also, who is making the precursor chemicals and where are they coming from.


----------



## fasterfb

Negi said:


> I'd be very interested in someone doing a survey of what year people feel the "mehDMA" arrived.



I think it would be more interesting to see the regions where Meh is acquired or the DW sources.
No problems here or in my previous locale.


----------



## indigoaura

@fasterfb Where are you at? Unfortunately, we cannot discuss DW info in detail here.


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> @fasterfb Where are you at? Unfortunately, we cannot discuss DW info in detail here.


I'm currently on the west coast of Canada. Easy to access most things here, although a bit more inconvenient now due to covid 19.
How about yourself?


----------



## draculic acid69

sassyfrass said:


> while i agree MDMA and THC is a godly combination,
> I wouldnt advises it for preventing physical side effects as both vastly increse blood pressure and can  put tough strain on the heart.
> Mentally though yes ive never had bad comedowns because i always smoked dabs during my rolling days, doesnt work repetedly though as if you are going at it every day brain zaps are unavoidable.


I always found THC to kill a roll not enhance it


----------



## draculic acid69

B


opposable-thumbs said:


> @G_Chem
> 
> Maybe you posted it already and I missed it, but did you finish your full reagent testing?
> 
> I just re-tested 2 batches this morning with Marquis, Mecke, Mandelin and Simons A/B.
> 
> Batch 1:
> Confirmed meh (for me and my wife anyway, have some friends who said they enjoyed it)
> DN sourced from Canada
> White powder with small white/grey crystals
> 
> Batch 2:
> Haven't tried yet
> DN sourced from USA (same vendor indigoaura got her last batch from that she said was just ok)
> White powder that looks like sugar
> 
> Reagent Results
> 
> Batch 1 (Meh)
> Marquis: Straight to black
> Mandelin: Straight to black
> Mecke: Straight to black
> Simons A: No reaction
> Simons B: Bright blue
> 
> Batch 2
> Marquis: Flash of purple to black, purple around edges
> Mandelin: Straight to black
> Mecke: Flash of green to black, green around edges (the green edges could possibly just be traces of leftover reagent)
> Simons A: No reaction
> Simons B: Bright blue


Bright blue means secondary amine correct?


----------



## draculic acid69

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Ok. Felt the first alerts after about 10 minutes. Knew straight away it wasnt going to be overwhelming. Straight away had an intense desire to redose (first sign of meh product - always want more but never get there). So after half an hour did another 90mg. Went very cold and sedated. No pupil dilation but nice body rushes and some eye wiggles. Felt slightly horny, but couldn't be arsed to do anything about it. Hit the 2 hour mark and I was fast asleep!
> 
> FML


Never had mdma kick in that quick.
The 30min mark was always bare minimum with me.any hint earlier than that tells me it's not md


----------



## draculic acid69

It’s the risk of LTC that worries me as well.  For myself and others... I have theorized (and still do) that the rise in LTC cases correlated with this supposed change in effects/synthesis route.

I’d forever hate myself if I accidentally ruined someone.  Hence why the 1-2 potential “meh” batches sit in the back of the closet.  Too scared to do anything more with them.

-GC
[/QUOTE]

Do u have the ability to do a few basic science experiments with it?


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Have you ever heard of a polarimeter ?
> 
> Did you read the posts in this thread about this issue ?  There was a guy that tested the stereoisomer ratios with a second method, too, so more than one test for this ratio exists.
> 
> 
> Yes, it is harder to obtain, but other precursors can take its place.
> How are the other precursors responsible for Meh MDMA when they go through the same PMK step as the synth from Safrole?



I've been saying that finding the production route of meh is super important.find out if it's different methods or one single method


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @user666
> 
> Thanks for posting those videos. I am watching them now.
> 
> It seems to me that I can proceed by:
> 
> Purchasing a chromatography column
> Purchasing silica gel
> Then, I would basically load the column with cotton/sand/silica/solvent.
> 
> Then I would need to add the MehDMA to the column, and allow it to separate as it runs through. I would need a UV light to see the MDMA separate from any contaminant. Then, I use beakers or other glassware to catch the separated compounds.
> 
> I am going to watch more videos, but here are a few of my questions so far:
> 
> 1. What solvent would be ideal to mix the silica with for this specific purpose?
> 2. Should I dissolve the MehDMA in water or some other liquid before pouring it through the column?
> 3. Once I have the separated MDMA in a beaker, how would I go about removing the solvent and re-crystalizing?
> 4. How would I dry the contaminant so it could be sent to a lab?
> 
> Thanks for your help!


Answers to the above questions are
1: I'm not sure but someone will answer it.
2: no water.use solvent.
3: once u have the different fractions
you boil a pot of water then place a pyrex baking dish over the top of it pour in the solvent and let it evaporate
until you r left with solid residue
4: your product should be dry enough
after evaporating.


----------



## draculic acid69

Th


rainey said:


> Remember the worldwide shortage of E just before 2009 roughly? The authorities found and destroyed a huge amount of saffrole I think it was about 150 tonnes of it.
> 
> When E started to come back on the scene again in the uk London was the first place it appeared and instead of £3 a pill (like it had been), the price was now £25 a pill and all the ravers said the same thing "its not the same any more" and the word was that it was because it wasn't saffrole any more but a synthetic version. That was the end of E. It has never ever been the same since. I don't know anything about chemistry etc all I know is that it changed forever. 7 or 8 years later I found an old stash of pills from back pre 2009 and there it was again full scale magic, so I proved to myself, finally, that it was not "loss of magic" it was "change of recipe"


They also found a couple of tonnes of pills coming out of Belgium hidden in ovens or something.


----------



## draculic acid69

rainey said:


> Remember the worldwide shortage of E just before 2009 roughly? The authorities found and destroyed a huge amount of saffrole I think it was about 150 tonnes of it.
> 
> When E started to come back on the scene again in the uk London was the first place it appeared and instead of £3 a pill (like it had been), the price was now £25 a pill and all the ravers said the same thing "its not the same any more" and the word was that it was because it wasn't saffrole any more but a synthetic version. That was the end of E. It has never ever been the same since. I don't know anything about chemistry etc all I know is that it changed forever. 7 or 8 years later I found an old stash of pills from back pre 2009 and there it was again full scale magic, so I proved to myself, finally, that it was not "loss of magic" it was "change of recipe"


I had the same magic buzz after they came back so it was definitely seen again


----------



## draculic acid69

sekio said:


> That would depend on what sort of impurities you were seperating. Usually, what works well for a TLC plate, will also work on a larger scale, all other factors held constant,
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on what kind of glass the column is. I don't think MDMA is fluorescent though, at any wavelength. Usually the UV visualization on TLC plates comes from the fluorescence of the silica itself: the compounds are visualized because they have a quenching/supressing effect on flourescence. That is, you see dark spots on a bright background. I think you can buy fluorescent silica for big columns, look into it.
> 
> Back in the olden days, people would run columns solely "by feel" and without visualization. Collect and number all your fractions. Test every Nth one on TLC with staining to see the seperation. Be patient and diligent. _Arbeit macht frei_, ya know?.



I know that cathinones aren't fluorescent with a handheld UV light
and I doubt mdma is either.niacin was the only thing that turned blue in all different batches tested with the UV light


----------



## draculic acid69

As


indigoaura said:


> @sekio Your chemistry knowledge is much more advanced than mine. I do not know the best solvents for TLC. I also do not understand what you mean when you say that you could do it without a visual. Would you just release the smallest amount into every glass vial? I feel like I would be likely to fuck that up without a visual.
> 
> Would you recommend buying the fluorescent silica instead of buying a UV lamp?
> 
> I can buy any type of column. What kind of glass do you recommend? I see them priced on Amazon from $50 up to $200 or more.
> 
> Bottom line: I am willing to throw down $ and buy whatever I need to buy in order to run a proper column on the Meh-DMA to test whether running a column will change the end result. I recognize that my knowledge is not to the level it needs to be to decide what to purchase. Would someone please advise and direct me to the proper purchases?


As seen in the videos about column chromatography a few pages ago
U don't need a UV light to notice different colored fractions coming thru.also MD cathinones won't show up under UV so I doubt mdma will.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

draculic acid69 said:


> Never had mdma kick in that quick.
> The 30min mark was always bare minimum with me.any hint earlier than that tells me it's not md



On an empty stomach when dissolved in water  after not having had any for several weeks that is standard for me. Usually it's the better stuff that kicks in that quickly, but not in this case as it turns out. The longer you've been doing drugs, the more you become attuned to recognising the effects.

By the 30 minute mark it was quite apparent it was going nowhere, that's why I redosed so soon - but to no avail..


----------



## psy997

I can also feel first effects of both meh and magic at the 10min mark.


----------



## indigoaura

With magic product I used to always start coming up around 15-20 min in. The Meh stuff is more unpredictable, but it usually takes more like 30-45 min. At least, that has been my observation. On very rare occasion I might feel the start of the Meh before 30 min. 



> As seen in the videos about column chromatography a few pages ago
> U don't need a UV light to notice different colored fractions coming thru.also MD cathinones won't show up under UV so I doubt mdma will.



Some of those videos were using dyes. 

@fasterfb I am in Texas, and I am not connected to any scene here. I have not come across any decent local product since around 2005 or a bit before that. As I already mentioned, there was a huge bust in this area that broke up the largest distribution ring, then my guy quit. So, I don't know how much my experience will connect to worldwide changes in production methods. Here, different people started bringing the product in.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Would you recommend buying the fluorescent silica instead of buying a UV lamp?


The fluoresent silica does not fluoresce without a UV to stimulate it.  
In my words, in this scenario, fluorescencence is the conversion of UV light into visible light.



indigoaura said:


> I can buy any type of column. What kind of glass do you recommend?


While Sekio will know much more about it, I think that some glass can block UV, so if it happens that the glass blocks that wavelength which the fluorescent silica needs to fluoresce, then the fluorescence will not happen or will be attenuated.
I know that quartz lets UV through, but I do not know if such columns exist or are really needed.


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> I always found THC to kill a roll not enhance it



I agree.  For me, I still like to smoke cuz I’m literally high 24/7 but I’ll reduce how much I smoke by a little bit cuz too much cannabis can kill it.  Edibles really kill a roll too.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Oh how we all differ. I'll drop MDMA as often as possible because I love the shit - even if its 'meh'. But I take a much more cautious approach with weed and only use it for sleep...


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> B
> 
> Bright blue means secondary amine correct?



Yes sir 



draculic acid69 said:


> It’s the risk of LTC that worries me as well.  For myself and others... I have theorized (and still do) that the rise in LTC cases correlated with this supposed change in effects/synthesis route.
> 
> I’d forever hate myself if I accidentally ruined someone.  Hence why the 1-2 potential “meh” batches sit in the back of the closet.  Too scared to do anything more with them.
> 
> -GC



Do u have the ability to do a few basic science experiments with it?
[/QUOTE]

Possibly yes, what do you have in mind?



draculic acid69 said:


> I've been saying that finding the production route of meh is super important.find out if it's different methods or one single method



So I had a weird epiphany this morning and it’s been years in this thread so maybe I’ve spoken of this before but I notice that platinum hydrogenation seems to be a source of complaints in the old Hive Archive with a few chemists remarking a lack of potency in the product.

As we know, today’s most common reduction is platinum hydrogenation.

I’m gonna look and see if I can’t find some of those anecdotes again.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

For me personally rolls usually take 45min to get going.  That said I guess I do feel something not long after ingestion.

I think it’s all personal cuz I remember folks saying they came up in 15min on the old Chi Mints and those were always 45min for me too.


Really good MDMA will start to come on 30-40min in by min 45 or so I’m ramping up hard.  For the next 15-30min is the rushing stage, or “blowing up.” Your pupils go black and your damn near hyperventilating from the rush of euphoria that fills every cell of your body, it’s exhilarating.  Usually if it’s intense enough I’ll need to excuse myself for a second until it gets to a manageable level again.

-GC


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> So I had a weird epiphany this morning and it’s been years in this thread so maybe I’ve spoken of this before but I notice that platinum hydrogenation seems to be a source of complaints in the old Hive Archive with a few chemists remarking a lack of potency in the product.
> As we know, today’s most common reduction is platinum hydrogenation.


Yes, I remember reading about that, too, but my chemistry knowledge is not advanced enough to even theorize what additional compounds can be created by this hydrogenation, that the other synth methods cannot create.
As far as I know, most of the other methods also synthesize the ketone PMK first and then go onto converting it to the MDMA base.

I think that pure PMK is PMK regardless where it comes from (saffrole, piperonal, glycidate, etc...), but some batches of *impure* PMK might contain certain contaminants, which this platinum hydrogenation converts into something bad coincidentally, while other types of reactions that convert PMK --> MDMA, do not convert these PMK contaminants at all (or convert them into something neutral).

In other words, if this platinum hydrogenation is the culprit, then either:
A]  it converts pure PMK into MDMA + crap (side products)
B]  it always converts pure PMK into pure MDMA ...but if the PMK contains contaminants then it converts them into additional crap.

As usual, the name of the game is:  "Name the Crap".

_This problems is elusive because our human minds tend to look for only one cause and in this case we might have two causes, i.e. Specific PMK Contaminants + Platinum Hydrogenation._


----------



## user666

The best guess that I can come up with my basic chemistry knowledge is that whatever is left over after converting the PMK-Glycidate into the PMK, gets hydrogenated into something bad if it is not removed.
I think converting PMK-Glycidate into the PMK is called reverse Darzen condensation.  This reaction produces PMK and some leftovers.  What are they?   Glycidic acid ?  Acrylic acid?  Glycidol?  Glycidamide ?

What do you get when you hydrogenate these leftovers ?


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

Good question! I think you are on to something. Someone wrote the following on reddit/theehive: "PMK glycidate is cheap and easy way for unskiled bastards to get to MDP2P and synthese unproper stuff, mostly impure", which aligns with your hypothesis. Hopefully the ban on PMK glycidate will lead to better product in a not to distant future.


----------



## user666

PsychedelicSummer said:


> Someone wrote the following on reddit/theehive: "PMK glycidate is cheap and easy way for unskiled bastards to get to MDP2P and synthese unproper stuff, mostly impure"


Could you ask him what impurities usually remain after converting the PMK-Glycidate into PMK ?


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Yes, I remember reading about that, too, but my chemistry knowledge is not advanced enough to even theorize what additional compounds can be created by this hydrogenation, that the other synth methods cannot create.
> As far as I know, most of the other methods also synthesize the ketone PMK first and then go onto converting it to the MDMA base.
> 
> I think that pure PMK is PMK regardless where it comes from (saffrole, piperonal, glycidate, etc...), but some batches of *impure* PMK might contain certain contaminants, which this platinum hydrogenation converts into something bad coincidentally, while other types of reactions that convert PMK --> MDMA, do not convert these PMK contaminants at all (or convert them into something neutral).
> 
> In other words, if this platinum hydrogenation is the culprit, then either:
> A]  it converts pure PMK into MDMA + crap (side products)
> B]  it always converts pure PMK into pure MDMA ...but if the PMK contains contaminants then it converts them into additional crap.
> 
> As usual, the name of the game is:  "Name the Crap".
> 
> _This problems is elusive because our human minds tend to look for only one cause and in this case we might have two causes, i.e. Specific PMK Contaminants + Platinum Hydrogenation._


Platinum hydrogenation is used every now and then but imagine how much you'd need to reduce a ton of pmk.it would be a couple of kilos at least and on the mass production scale(hundreds of kg to tonnes) I don't think the cost of platinum is doable.if u can get tonnes of pmk u can just use HG/Al amalgam or sodium borohydride or do the leuckart rxn.no way your gunna buy hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment and platinum metal to do what can be done easily for less money.i don't see platinum reduction being the culprit.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Yes, I remember reading about that, too, but my chemistry knowledge is not advanced enough to even theorize what additional compounds can be created by this hydrogenation, that the other synth methods cannot create.
> As far as I know, most of the other methods also synthesize the ketone PMK first and then go onto converting it to the MDMA base.
> 
> I think that pure PMK is PMK regardless where it comes from (saffrole, piperonal, glycidate, etc...), but some batches of *impure* PMK might contain certain contaminants, which this platinum hydrogenation converts into something bad coincidentally, while other types of reactions that convert PMK --> MDMA, do not convert these PMK contaminants at all (or convert them into something neutral).
> 
> In other words, if this platinum hydrogenation is the culprit, then either:
> A]  it converts pure PMK into MDMA + crap (side products)
> B]  it always converts pure PMK into pure MDMA ...but if the PMK contains contaminants then it converts them into additional crap.
> 
> As usual, the name of the game is:  "Name the Crap".
> 
> _This problems is elusive because our human minds tend to look for only one cause and in this case we might have two causes, i.e. Specific PMK Contaminants + Platinum Hydrogenation._


Again this highlights the need to determine the route meh was synthesized by.one route or multiple routes.this will answer the question.


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Yes sir
> 
> 
> 
> Do u have the ability to do a few basic science experiments with it?
> 
> Possibly yes, what do you have in mind?





Testing to see if it's racemic and testing b.p of the freebase.
Also testing m.p ,  b.p ,  and decomp point of the salt. Solubility of impurities
in acetone to see if it dissolves away  stuff that might be causing the meh effect  to  test the impurity theory. These are what I would try.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Platinum hydrogenation is used every now and then but imagine how much you'd need to reduce a ton of pmk.it would be a couple of kilos at least and on the mass production scale(hundreds of kg to tonnes) I don't think the cost of platinum is doable.


In this reaction, platinum is neither a precursor nor a reagent.  You know what a catalyst is, don't you ?

I would like to hear from the Pros what is the *catalytic activity* of platinum in this hydrogenation process.
Without this info, it is impossible to calculate how much platinum is needed to produce this 1 ton of hydrogenated product.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> In this reaction, platinum is not a precursor nor a reagent.  You know what a catalyst is, don't you ?


Yes I do.just bcoz it's not a precursor nor a reagent doesn't mean u don't have to buy a shit load of it.just bcoz its
possible to regenerate it doesn't mean its worth the effort of taking time to do it.its also a fire risk as it has a tendency to spontaneously ignite.on mass scale it's more time,effort and expense than its worth.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Solubility of impurities in acetone to see if it dissolves away  stuff that might be causing the meh effect  to  test the impurity theory.


That is not a very good test when the impurities have the same solubility in acetone.
As far as I remember, this has been already tried in this thread,


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> just bcoz it's not a precursor nor a reagent doesn't mean u don't have to buy a shit load of it.


Yes it does when the *catalytic activity* is high.
Do you know how many Katals it has ?


----------



## draculic acid69

It takes about 6g of platinum to reduce a kilo of precursor which isn't much on the kilo scale but seeing as how this meh shit is on several different continents and is seen often enough to be an ongoing consistent problem that has turned the scene into a lucky dip of maybe meh maybe magic were talking about synth on the multi ton scale not kilo scale.250kgs of precursor requires
1.5 kgs of platinum at a price of $25000 per kilo meaning $37000
per 250kg batch when the leuckart or the Al/HG or sodium borohydride can be used for 1/10th of that price.its just not an attractive option on that scale.then other than price u have to have a vessel capable of holding that much liquid that can hold hydrogen gas at elevated pressure and rapidly stir hundreds of litres of chemicals and you've got the risk of all that hydrogen gas around flammable liquids with a catalyst that likes to catch fire when exposed to air.the equipment costs will be significant.
Overall not a great option for large scale


----------



## indigoaura

@ThreePointCircle What solvents have you used with your TLC plates? I want to try column chromatography to clean my Meh-DMA and @sekio said that TLC solvent should work.


----------



## draculic acid69

T


indigoaura said:


> @ThreePointCircle What solvents have you used with your TLC plates? I want to try column chromatography to clean my Meh-DMA and @sekio said that TLC solvent should work.


Tlc solvent is usually ethyl acetate and hexane I think.not 100% sure so double check it.


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> Platinum hydrogenation is used every now and then but imagine how much you'd need to reduce a ton of pmk.it would be a couple of kilos at least and on the mass production scale(hundreds of kg to tonnes) I don't think the cost of platinum is doable.if u can get tonnes of pmk u can just use HG/Al amalgam or sodium borohydride or do the leuckart rxn.no way your gunna buy hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment and platinum metal to do what can be done easily for less money.i don't see platinum reduction being the culprit.



Remember though the catalyst can be recovered fairly easily and used again.  They recycle the catalyst cuz otherwise your right the cost would be insanity.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Question for ravers who used product in the 90’s, maybe some of you possibly into the early 2000’s... Did the pills ever have a tangy taste to them?  Was anything different to the taste back then.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> Question for ravers who used product in the 90’s, maybe some of you possibly into the early 2000’s... Did the pills ever have a tangy taste to them?  Was anything different to the taste back then.
> 
> -GC


no i nether bothered to acutally taste them just throw it down your mouth with water. The only time i ever  taste mdma is in the drip and less pure product that is usually quite a speedy high added to it tastes even worse than more pure product.


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Remember though the catalyst can be recovered fairly easily and used again.  They recycle the catalyst cuz otherwise your right the cost would be insanity.
> 
> -GC


Its quite difficult to recover the catalyst as it's so fine it goes through most filters. Also if celite is used it would have to be redissolved in aqua regia taking days of reflux and evaporating and rehydrogenating.probably 3-5 days work at least.above kilo scale it's not a smart move.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> It takes about 6g of platinum to reduce a kilo of precursor
> ...1.5 kgs of platinum at a price of $25000 per kilo meaning $37000
> ...the equipment costs will be significant.
> Overall not a great option for large scale


If that catalyst to reagent ratio indeed is 1:166 and the catalyst cannot be* recovered economically*, then I will have to agree that it is not a great option on a large scale.

I would like someone who has experience with this reaction to confirm this.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Its quite difficult to recover the catalyst as it's so fine it goes through most filters.


What if they use a finely woven mesh/screen of platinum and recirculate ingredients through it ?


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> Question for ravers who used product in the 90’s, maybe some of you possibly into the early 2000’s... Did the pills ever have a tangy taste to them?  Was anything different to the taste back then.


Unfortunately I did not taste them but I remember someone in this thread describing the taste difference precisely and claiming that he was able to detect Meh MDMA this way reliably.


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> Its quite difficult to recover the catalyst as it's so fine it goes through most filters. Also if celite is used it would have to be redissolved in aqua regia taking days of reflux and evaporating and rehydrogenating.probably 3-5 days work at least.above kilo scale it's not a smart move.



It must not be too difficult because the most recent data shows PT hydrogenation as the most commonly used reduction when looking at MDMA analyzed in Aus a few years back.

Palladium catalyst is very easy to recover I’m gonna assume platinum isn’t much different in recovery.



So guys I might have an interesting clue...  A sample of expected “2cb” was analyzed that was purchased in Mexico.  It contained no 2cb but one of the ingredients was MDMA as well as 5x the amount of that MDMA of n-acetyl-mdma.

This impurity has never been picked up by EData but has been an impurity that’s been around for awhile based on some literature I’ve found.  I’ll continue to dig to see what I find.

I’m shocked at the fact there is 5x the amount, that means that MDMA before being put into this mixed product was essentially mostly n-acetyl-mdma.  I wanna know what synthesis route this originated from.

I do know GAA is used in the PT hydrogenation, would this maybe be the cause of our impurity.  I wonder if this may be potentially our culprit impurity.

-GC


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> I do know GAA is used in the PT hydrogenation, would this maybe be the cause of our impurity.


GAA = Glacial Acetic Acid ?
If "yes", what is its function ?

P.S.
_I remember that some old recipe for Meth used acetic acid to make phenylacetone (P2P). Could PMK be made in a similar manner?_


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> GAA = Glacial Acetic Acid ?
> If "yes" what is its function ?
> 
> P.S.
> _I remember that some old recipe for Meth used acetic acid to make phenylacetone (P2P)._



Yes, I don’t exactly remember the function much other than it increases yields compared to the same hydrogenation done without.  I’d have to hunt through old Hive threads again.


In regards to the pink “2cb” powder which had the weird n-acetyl-MDMA in it.  Another batch of supposed 2cb was analyzed sent from Columbia which had similar ratios of ingredients (likely the same producer) but didn’t show the n-acetyl-mdma.  I’m wondering if this is a clue to the labs relative incompetence or if the producer really did change the ingredients that much.

-GC


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> *TLC* solvent is usually ethyl acetate and hexane I think.not 100% sure so double check it.


I heard good things about Acetonitrile, too.


----------



## G_Chem

A research article diving into some analysis done on Gummy’s by Energy Control from 2017 showed n-acetyl-MDMA along with MDMA in one sample.

I’m starting to wonder how common this impurity really is...

-GC


----------



## user666

Continuing my dilettanteous guesswork, note that Wikipedia states that Glycidol may cause "_central nervous system depression, followed by central nervous system stimulation_".

Is it possible that some Glycidol is produced when PMK-Glycidate is converted to PMK ?
What about Glycidamide ?

What would Platinum hydrogenation make out of them ?


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> Continuing my dilettanteous guesswork, note that Wikipedia states that Glycidol may cause "_central nervous system depression, followed by central nervous system stimulation_".
> 
> Is it possible that some Glycidol is produced when PMK-Glycidate is converted to PMK ?
> What about Glycidamide ?
> 
> What would Platinum hydrogenation make out of them ?



So pretty sure few years back we discussed this a bit and did reason it could be an issue.  It’d take some digging back.


After looking around it appears the n-acetyl-mdma is an impurity likely related to the Leuckart.  This would also make sense coming from Central/South America where this route is likely more prevalent.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> @ThreePointCircle What solvents have you used with your TLC plates? I want to try column chromatography to clean my Meh-DMA and @sekio said that TLC solvent should work.



From some paper or other:

System 1 - Ethyl acetate : Methanol : Water : Ammonia as 95 : 3.5 : 1.5 : 0.75 by volume
System 2 - Acetone : Ammonia as 100 : 0.5 by volume 

Neither worked well but that may have been overloading of sample.  I'm going to start again, as I have now sorted out my capillaries.  Have also had hexane suggested to me (as @draculic acid69 also mentioned) and also triethylamine instead of ammonia but I haven't got any of that yet.

I did also have a play with column chromatography but without a suitable solvent system worked out it was rather pointless.  Worked out how to run a column though so once we have a decent solvent system for the column and TLC of the fractions we should be good to go.

All about the TLC really...


----------



## nznity

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Ok. Felt the first alerts after about 10 minutes. Knew straight away it wasnt going to be overwhelming. Straight away had an intense desire to redose (first sign of meh product - always want more but never get there). So after half an hour did another 90mg. Went very cold and sedated. No pupil dilation but nice body rushes and some eye wiggles. Felt slightly horny, but couldn't be arsed to do anything about it. Hit the 2 hour mark and I was fast asleep!
> 
> FML


Man you serious??? I've had meh before but the last 3 times I've done mdma on the other side of the pond theyve Been Spectacular. Especially the last Time someone invited me 3 fingers of mdma i was rolling balls. It's weird cause you're next to holland, the product In the uk should be outstanding.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

nznity said:


> Man you serious??? I've had meh before but the last 3 times I've done mdma on the other side of the pond theyve Been Spectacular. Especially the last Time someone invited me 3 fingers of mdma i was rolling balls. It's weird cause you're next to holland, the product In the uk should be outstanding.



Yeh, but that's just it, it's not. Since the Dutch took over mass production of MDMA it's all turned to shit IMO. They did the fuckin same with amphetamine sulphate in the 80s and now it's not worth a wank..


----------



## nznity

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, but that's just it, it's not. Since the Dutch took over mass production of MDMA it's all turned to shit IMO. They did the fuckin same with amphetamine sulphate in the 80s and now it's not worth a wank..


That sucks man, i have a theory though why there's a Lot of good quality drugs in Perú. It's cause of the Cocaine, i think large scale dealers trade good quality coke for pills AND mdma. Those drugs are worth More down here AND same with the coke over there
 Everybody wins.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> It must not be too difficult because the most recent data shows PT hydrogenation as the most commonly used reduction when looking at MDMA analyzed in Aus a few years back.
> 
> Palladium catalyst is very easy to recover I’m gonna assume platinum isn’t much different in recovery.
> 
> 
> 
> So guys I might have an interesting clue...  A sample of expected “2cb” was analyzed that was purchased in Mexico.  It contained no 2cb but one of the ingredients was MDMA as well as 5x the amount of that MDMA of n-acetyl-mdma.
> 
> This impurity has never been picked up by EData but has been an impurity that’s been around for awhile based on some literature I’ve found.  I’ll continue to dig to see what I find.
> 
> I’m shocked at the fact there is 5x the amount, that means that MDMA before being put into this mixed product was essentially mostly n-acetyl-mdma.  I wanna know what synthesis route this originated from.
> 
> I do know GAA is used in the PT hydrogenation, would this maybe be the cause of our impurity.  I wonder if this may be potentially our culprit impurity.
> 
> -GC


Theres a new drug in south american made by colobiam cartels called TUSSY its a pink crystal or powder suppose to be 2CB but the effects are pretty strange its like cocaine at a low dose ketamine at high dose and inbetween something else. So these south americans are cooking up all sorts of weird shit to take with wild mixes.


----------



## nznity

TripSitterNZ said:


> Theres a new drug in south american made by colobiam cartels called TUSSY its a pink crystal or powder suppose to be 2CB but the effects are pretty strange its like cocaine at a low dose ketamine at high dose and inbetween something else. So these south americans are cooking up all sorts of weird shit to take with wild mixes.


There's tons of that shit In my country, i tried one.bump at a party but didnt feel shit cause a friend gave me a bag of 2g of mdma AND stuck my finger there like 3 Tims AND a random guy gave me a few bumps of coke. But I've seen ppl enjoy that shit a lot, they seem pretty faded.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

TripSitterNZ said:


> Theres a new drug in south american made by colobiam cartels called TUSSY its a pink crystal or powder suppose to be 2CB but the effects are pretty strange its like cocaine at a low dose ketamine at high dose and inbetween something else. So these south americans are cooking up all sorts of weird shit to take with wild mixes.



Yeh. There's an old drug in my country called PUSSY.  You stick your tongue in it and suck it all up. It sometimes stinks of fish and tastes like arse, but occasionally you get rewarded with an explosion. Fuck TUSSY, lick PUSSY...


----------



## OzzBozz

What MDMA Therapy Did For Me
					

I did MDMA therapy.




					medium.com
				




I enjoyed reading this alot.  I haven't done MDMA in years because the last two times i obtained it from sources who claimed it was so pure and so good (and there seemed to be a lot of verification of this or so it appeared).  Howeved, i felt like the the quality  was the meh-mdma that people speak of. I had my first mdma experience in 2007 and the quality of MDMA i had access to at the time was what i believe G calls "amazing". However,  i wasn't using it for therapeutic reasons and I'd really like to revisit it with that objective in mind.


----------



## AutoTripper

@G_Chem just quick comment on your question about 90's vs early 2000 pills and any noticeable change, regarding "tangyness".

I really can't be very subjective about this. In my mind, the better/best presses I was getting 2000-2005 were a lot better, stronger and cleaner than I got on average during the 90's.

But I definitely saw it as a trademark, as did others, of a really quality MDMA pill, if it fizzed on your tongue by contact.

People actually sold me pills this way. They were friggin amazing, like the best. That was 2000.  So tangyness I have always associated with good clean and legit MDMA pills.

I know that doesn't answer your question and likely way off track, but I felt compelled to add my memory and impression.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

So my friend sent me a pic of quite big clear crystals looked like meth or very impure stuff he said it was mdma and was going to try it out i was quite skeptical cause i never seen shit like that but it crushed up into a nice fine white line of powder and he said half a point had him flying and it was good. 

Crystal size was probably 5 grams clear rounded edges like a block pretty much see through. His reagent test had it go very dark blue then black on mandelin. 

Waiting for my main contact to get running again after lockdown so i get can get big brownish rocks of mdma to test i could also buy cola mdma and see if that is acutally shit since i always avoided it cause fuck knows why its black always thought it must have toxic byproducts left over.


----------



## G_Chem

I tried very dark nearly black MDMA one time.  The only reason I did is because despite the intense color the crystal formation was spot on beautiful.

It definitely felt a bit different, a little edgier but probably on a level most average users wouldn’t perceive.  If I remember correctly I decided to redose with some much purer crystal on the booster, cuz I wasn’t jumping with joy from the results I presume.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem I asked my partner, who used to chew the pills and let them sit under his tongue, what he recalled about the taste. He described it as bitter/sour as he recalls. I usually swallowed mine pretty quick, but I recall a bitter taste as well.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> If that catalyst to reagent ratio indeed is 1:166 and the catalyst cannot be* recovered economically*, then I will have to agree that it is not a great option on a large scale.
> 
> I would like someone who has experience with this reaction to confirm this.


It can be recovered by letting it settle
or filtering through celite but I reckon it will take about a week between batches spent redoing the catalyst which slows shit down a lot.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> What if they use a finely woven mesh/screen of platinum and recirculate ingredients through it ?



Possible but it's a major engineering fete and it's just further complicating
things which are done simpler for cheaper with other methods.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

So I can get my hands on some pretty strong MDA only pressies here in the US. Legit, old school etc etc. Has there been any meh MDA? Or people don't make it as much.........?


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> It must not be too difficult because the most recent data shows PT hydrogenation as the most commonly used reduction when looking at MDMA analyzed in Aus a few years back.
> 
> Palladium catalyst is very easy to recover I’m gonna assume platinum isn’t much different in recovery.
> 
> 
> 
> So guys I might have an interesting clue...  A sample of expected “2cb” was analyzed that was purchased in Mexico.  It contained no 2cb but one of the ingredients was MDMA as well as 5x the amount of that MDMA of n-acetyl-mdma.
> 
> This impurity has never been picked up by EData but has been an impurity that’s been around for awhile based on some literature I’ve found.  I’ll continue to dig to see what I find.
> 
> I’m shocked at the fact there is 5x the amount, that means that MDMA before being put into this mixed product was essentially mostly n-acetyl-mdma.  I wanna know what synthesis route this originated from.
> 
> I do know GAA is used in the PT hydrogenation, would this maybe be the cause of our impurity.  I wonder if this may be potentially our culprit impurity.
> 
> -GC


Gaa would only cause mdma acetate not lead to the n acetyl compound.
N acetyl mdma is similar to 
n formyl mdma which is the 
leuckart intermediate before reduction
N acetyl mdma would be from using
methyl acetamide instead of  methylformamide in a 
leuckart style rxn.this has been discussed on the hive several times and dismissed as it wont work. There is another method for making amphetamine that
uses acetonitrile and allylbenzene that leads to n acetyl amphetamine as an intermediate but it doesn't work for making MDA from safrole due to some factor about electronegativity or something so it's not the cause of meh at all.or mdma can be refluxed with acetic anhydride to form n acetyl mdma.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> GAA = Glacial Acetic Acid ?
> If "yes", what is its function ?
> 
> P.S.
> _I remember that some old recipe for Meth used acetic acid to make phenylacetone (P2P). Could PMK be made in a similar manner?_


Gaa is glacial acetic acid.
Its basically a solvent in the platinum hydrogenation.
The gaa meth synth is the tube
furnace method used in breaking bad.no it can't be used for mdma as
the 450'c temp of the tube furnace
is high enough to fuck the mdp2p
that is temperature sensitive and must be distilled under vacuum.


----------



## draculic acid69

A


TripSitterNZ said:


> Theres a new drug in south american made by colobiam cartels called TUSSY its a pink crystal or powder suppose to be 2CB but the effects are pretty strange its like cocaine at a low dose ketamine at high dose and inbetween something else. So these south americans are cooking up all sorts of weird shit to take with wild mixes.


Apparently 2cb is the new club drug in Columbia.


----------



## sheekle

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Yeh, but that's just it, it's not. Since the Dutch took over mass production of MDMA it's all turned to shit IMO. They did the fuckin same with amphetamine sulphate in the 80s and now it's not worth a wank..


Lol. Entirely untrue


----------



## draculic acid69

mrsmokeweed said:


> So I can get my hands on some pretty strong MDA only pressies here in the US. Legit, old school etc etc. Has there been any meh MDA? Or people don't make it as much.........?


MDA is far less common.its really only
made on a small scale usually domestically.its not made in large enough amounts to ship around the world so it tends to stay close to where it's made.


----------



## draculic acid69

sheekle said:


> Lol. Entirely untrue


Always had Dutch stuff in my country. Its always been good.


----------



## G_Chem

Alright I finished the Reagent experiments, this is what I found.

A = Mecke
B= Marquis
C= Mandelin
D= Simons
E= Froedhe
F= Liebermann

Sample 1
Likely Meh
Yellow G6 Piggy Bank, SoCal Import

A= Green to Dark Blue
B= Dark Purple
C= Green to Black
D= Royal Blue
E= Very quick to Dark black, hint of purple? (Later purple)
F= Brownish/Blackish


Sample 2
Magic, Pure Love
Mixed Magic Crystal, 2 magic samples together

A= Turquoise to Dark Blue then Black
B= Brownish Purple to Black
C= Dark Purple/brown? To quickly Dark black
D= Puddle goes completely blue instantly
E= Quick flask of green to brownish black (no/little purple)
F= Violent, straight to black (later reddish/purplish hue)


Sample 3
Meh? Seemed ok but very short acting based on others experiences
Tan/Brown Sand/Crystals

A= Green/turquoise to Dark Blue/black
B= Reddish/purplish to Black quick
C= Flash of green? To black
D= Swirls of Dark royal blue (not whole puddle)
E= Flash of green/yellow? To purple/black
F= Violent, straight to black


Sample 4
Magic
Clear Sandy Crystal

A= Green/turquoise to nearly black (slight purplish hint)
B= Reddish Purple to Dark Purple/almost black
C= Maybe slight green but quick to Dark/black
D= Quick to Dark royal blue (much of the puddle)
E= Flash of green/yellow? To black (no purple)
F= Violent, straight to black (reddish later)


Sample 5
Likely Meh, felt lacking and short acting
Blocky clear crystal that looks different to the others

A= Turquoise/green to nearly black
B= reddish/brownish/purplish to nearly black
C= Straight to Black
D= Deep rich blue swirls (much of the puddle)
E= Flash of green to black
F= Flash of Purple, Violently to brown/black


Sample 6
Unknown but probably magic based on Crystal formation and others experiences
Grayish crystal with mostly sand but 1 very well defined shard (biggest true crystal I’ve ever seen)

A= Turquoise/green to Dark Blue/black
B= Reddish/brownish/purplish to Purple/blacj
C= Straight to blaxk
D= Deep rich blue (much of puddle)
E= Green to Reddish/purplish to black
F= Yellow/green to Dark brownish/reddish/black (later reddish)


Sample 7
Magic
Old very clean/clear crystal

A= Green to Dark Blue/black (slight purple?)
B= Straight to Black, slight purple
C= Straight to black
D= Deep rich blue
E= Green/yellow to black
F= Straight to Black (later red/brown)


Sample 8
Opaque/white chunk
Magic

A= Turquoise/green to Dark Blue/black
B= Straight to Black, slight purple
C= Quick green to black
D= Rich Blue
E= Green/yellow to black
F=Violent to black (later reddish/maroon/brown)


Conclusion:

The one thing that seems to stand out is the Liebermann, with suspected meh it will remain black, with good magic it will later turn reddish brownish, with some of the best turning a reddish/purplish/maroon.

The Froedhe also stayed black with magic but went purple later on 2 of the 3 suspected meh samples.

-GC


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Alright I finished the Reagent experiments, this is what I found.
> 
> A = Mecke
> B= Marquis
> C= Mandelin
> D= Simons
> E= Froedhe
> F= Liebermann
> 
> Sample 1
> Likely Meh
> Yellow G6 Piggy Bank, SoCal Import
> 
> A= Green to Dark Blue
> B= Dark Purple
> C= Green to Black
> D= Royal Blue
> E= Very quick to Dark black, hint of purple? (Later purple)
> F= Brownish/Blackish
> 
> 
> Sample 2
> Magic, Pure Love
> Mixed Magic Crystal, 2 magic samples together
> 
> A= Turquoise to Dark Blue then Black
> B= Brownish Purple to Black
> C= Dark Purple/brown? To quickly Dark black
> D= Puddle goes completely blue instantly
> E= Quick flask of green to brownish black (no/little purple)
> F= Violent, straight to black (later reddish/purplish hue)
> 
> 
> Sample 3
> Meh? Seemed ok but very short acting based on others experiences
> Tan/Brown Sand/Crystals
> 
> A= Green/turquoise to Dark Blue/black
> B= Reddish/purplish to Black quick
> C= Flash of green? To black
> D= Swirls of Dark royal blue (not whole puddle)
> E= Flash of green/yellow? To purple/black
> F= Violent, straight to black
> 
> 
> Sample 4
> Magic
> Clear Sandy Crystal
> 
> A= Green/turquoise to nearly black (slight purplish hint)
> B= Reddish Purple to Dark Purple/almost black
> C= Maybe slight green but quick to Dark/black
> D= Quick to Dark royal blue (much of the puddle)
> E= Flash of green/yellow? To black (no purple)
> F= Violent, straight to black (reddish later)
> 
> 
> Sample 5
> Likely Meh, felt lacking and short acting
> Blocky clear crystal that looks different to the others
> 
> A= Turquoise/green to nearly black
> B= reddish/brownish/purplish to nearly black
> C= Straight to Black
> D= Deep rich blue swirls (much of the puddle)
> E= Flash of green to black
> F= Flash of Purple, Violently to brown/black
> 
> 
> Sample 6
> Unknown but probably magic based on Crystal formation and others experiences
> Grayish crystal with mostly sand but 1 very well defined shard (biggest true crystal I’ve ever seen)
> 
> A= Turquoise/green to Dark Blue/black
> B= Reddish/brownish/purplish to Purple/blacj
> C= Straight to blaxk
> D= Deep rich blue (much of puddle)
> E= Green to Reddish/purplish to black
> F= Yellow/green to Dark brownish/reddish/black (later reddish)
> 
> 
> Sample 7
> Magic
> Old very clean/clear crystal
> 
> A= Green to Dark Blue/black (slight purple?)
> B= Straight to Black, slight purple
> C= Straight to black
> D= Deep rich blue
> E= Green/yellow to black
> F= Straight to Black (later red/brown)
> 
> 
> Sample 8
> Opaque/white chunk
> Magic
> 
> A= Turquoise/green to Dark Blue/black
> B= Straight to Black, slight purple
> C= Quick green to black
> D= Rich Blue
> E= Green/yellow to black
> F=Violent to black (later reddish/maroon/brown)
> 
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> The one thing that seems to stand out is the Liebermann, with suspected meh it will remain black, with good magic it will later turn reddish brownish, with some of the best turning a reddish/purplish/maroon.
> 
> The Froedhe also stayed black with magic but went purple later on 2 of the 3 suspected meh samples.
> 
> -GC


Lieberman isn't a very common reagent outside of a lab but it 
looks very easy to mix up a batch
from stuff you can get off ebay


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> The one thing that seems to stand out is the Liebermann, with suspected meh it will remain black, with good magic it will later turn reddish brownish, with some of the best turning a reddish/purplish/maroon.


What was the time frame on these color changes ?



G_Chem said:


> The Froedhe also stayed black with magic but went purple later on 2 of the 3 suspected meh samples.


...and this one ?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

mrsmokeweed said:


> So I can get my hands on some pretty strong MDA only pressies here in the US. Legit, old school etc etc. Has there been any meh MDA? Or people don't make it as much.........?



Got MDA a couple of times off DMs.  Always meh.  Just with more visuals.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

draculic acid69 said:


> Lieberman isn't a very common reagent outside of a lab but it



https://www.reagent-tests.uk/ have it


----------



## draculic acid69

ThreePointCircle said:


> https://www.reagent-tests.uk/ have it


Ok good to know.all I've ever seen for testing is mandelin and marquis.


----------



## indigoaura

Dancesafe has Lieberman and so do Bunk Police.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

The true test of MehDMA:

I've got 1.5g sitting in my cupboard and I just can't be arsed...


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> What was the time frame on these color changes ?
> 
> 
> ...and this one ?



When I say “later” I’m talking about 60-120 seconds I believe but I can repeat that to see.  There’s the initial reaction which then slowly fades to this reddish coloration.

With the meh there was zero reddish at any point later on, it stayed as is.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> When I say “later” I’m talking about 60-120 seconds I believe but I can repeat that to see.  There’s the initial reaction which then slowly fades to this reddish coloration.
> With the meh there was zero reddish at any point later on, it stayed as is.
> -GC



 Any chance you could take videos for us to reference?


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> @G_Chem I asked my partner, who used to chew the pills and let them sit under his tongue, what he recalled about the taste. He described it as bitter/sour as he recalls. I usually swallowed mine pretty quick, but I recall a bitter taste as well.


Yes indeed, bitter is the word. Certainly not very pleasant. I first discovered such a taste in 1996, we did it for a faster come up, and it did seem to be gentler on the digestive tract too.

But also, it really was a reliable indication of a good, quality pill. I just quickly grew to know the very distinctive taste of those amazing MDMA pills, no mistaking it.

Not nice at all. But it WAS nice to know you had just taken a truly banging MDMA pill haha.


----------



## AutoTripper

ThreePointCircle said:


> Got MDA a couple of times off DMs.  Always meh.  Just with more visuals.


This is interesting to me and stirs some thought. One is it is at least reassurring that it sounds it may have been (modern) MDA at least, which is more visual and psychedellic.

But then it is also Meh! I have unconscious thought paths formong in my mind, bit not clever enough to follow them haha.

I just feel this experience may be poignant somehow.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

In my experience, ALL MDMA, whether magic or meh is bitter as fuck. As are most drugs. But I do find that the meh stuff has a more acrid bitterness to it than better shit. It's hard to explain, and its very subtle, but it's there...


----------



## user666

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> The true test of MehDMA:
> I've got 1.5g sitting in my cupboard and I just can't be arsed...


Yup, the Meh stuff does not even nudge me either


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

user666 said:


> Yup, the Meh stuff does not even nudge me either



There's only one thing worse than no drugs - and that's bad drugs...


----------



## G_Chem

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> There's only one thing worse than no drugs - and that's bad drugs...



Please tell me that’s a picture of you FUB’s I’ve always wondered what your crazy self looked like 


Also I have to agree FUBAR with your taste assessment.  So when I tried Sample 1 I noticed the bitterness was kinda more acrid, something almost more “synthetic/chemically” about it compared to other presses and shards.  It was also significantly less bitter overall than I was assuming based on the supposed mg content.


As to 3Point, I unfortunately probably can’t get a video but I may redo the experiment with all samples side by side and a timer.  Maybe pictures but I’m not confident with my abilities to not like leave my home address on the pic data or whatever lol.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> Please tell me that’s a picture of you FUB’s I’ve always wondered what your crazy self looked like
> 
> 
> Also I have to agree FUBAR with your taste assessment.  So when I tried Sample 1 I noticed the bitterness was kinda more acrid, something almost more “synthetic/chemically” about it compared to other presses and shards.  It was also significantly less bitter overall than I was assuming based on the supposed mg content.
> 
> 
> As to 3Point, I unfortunately probably can’t get a video but I may redo the experiment with all samples side by side and a timer.  Maybe pictures but I’m not confident with my abilities to not like leave my home address on the pic data or whatever lol.
> 
> -GC




Nah, that's not me man - that is the person I aspire to be...  :D

Anyway, regarding my activities later:

To meh, or not to meh, that is the question...


----------



## G_Chem

I can’t believe this thread is 4yrs old...

So guys now that I’ve found this little possible Reagent trick, I’m gonna test as much MDMA I see over the next year or so (it’ll get easier once Covid is over) and see if the theory holds true.

I’ll try to get a pic up of a side by side of the two puddles for comparison.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I have placed an order for Lieberman reagent, and will report on what happens with all of my Meh samples.


----------



## user666

OK, I can't wait to try this.  I will mix up my own Liebermann reagent on Monday at work but I don't have any Molybdate salts for the Froehde reagent.  I'd have to order one.

Anyway, since we are on the fringe with these reagents, @G_Chem could you find out if your Froehde was made with the sodium molybdate or ammonium molybdate because there are several different recipies out there for this reagent and all are called "Froehde".


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> OK, I can't wait to try this.  I will mix up my own Liebermann reagent on Monday at work but I don't have any Molybdate salts for the Froehde reagent.  I'd have to order one.
> 
> Anyway, since we are on the fringe with these reagents, @G_Chem could you find out if your Froehde was made with the sodium molybdate or ammonium molybdate because there are several different recipies out there for this reagent and all are called "Froehde".



I’ll look a bit, it’s a Bunk Police Froehde kit.  Thanks for giving this a go 

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I did not even think about the various companies providing slightly different reagents. I ordered from Dancesafe because they were a bit cheaper, but I really do need to get the exact same one as G_Chem.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> Maybe pictures but I’m not confident with my abilities to not like leave my home address on the pic data or whatever lol.


It is easy to get rid of any metadata in the photos, like this:
1) Open them in MS Windows Paint
2) Save them in "24-bit Bitmap (*.bmp; *.dib)" format because this format does not support any metadata except color profiles and MS-Paint does not save color profiles anyway.
3) Close all files and exit MS-Paint.
4) Reopen the *.bmp files and save them in any other modern format that is small enough for posting.


----------



## indigoaura

I have found that it is difficult to capture the colors accurately when trying to film the reactions. Very hard to show the subtle differences.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I have found that it is difficult to capture the colors accurately when trying to film the reactions. Very hard to show the subtle differences.


Yes, it can be a problem but if you leave a *white or gray sheet of paper somewhere in the photo frame* and take the photo in unchanging artificial light ( not in a variable sunlight ! ) then it is possible to do white balance and color correction at the recipient's side very accurately.
One gotcha, that white piece of paper should *not* have any fluorescent whitening agents added to it (like inkjet papers often do) because such papers make their own blue light.   See:


----------



## G_Chem

Goddamnit, well just did a side by side with the Liebermann hoping to replicate my results and have a better idea on the color changes.  And they all turned a maroon over time this time.... Fuck me im sorry guys.  To varying extents I suppose and at varying times but not different enough to be positive.

I’m at a loss truly, my only guess is maybe I didn’t wait long enough last time and the magic turned quicker.  This time I moved the puddles around which seemed to then show maroon in them all to varying extents.

Again my apologies, what baffles me is that this change in color happened only with the meh first time around.  I can’t believe they didn’t turn reddish at all first run, I remember even waiting them out and moving them around too.  I’m gonna repeat these experiments with timers going, crushed weighed samples and see what I get.

I did take a quarter tab of LSD too, not much but maybe my minds messingvwith the puddles.  Figured I’d mention it regardless.

-GC


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> Goddamnit, well just did a side by side with the Liebermann hoping to replicate my results and have a better idea on the color changes.  And they all turned a maroon over time this time.... Fuck me im sorry guys.  To varying extents I suppose and at varying times but not different enough to be positive.
> 
> I’m at a loss truly, my only guess is maybe I didn’t wait long enough last time and the magic turned quicker.  This time I moved the puddles around which seemed to then show maroon in them all to varying extents.
> 
> Again my apologies, what baffles me is that this change in color happened only with the meh first time around.  I can’t believe they didn’t turn reddish at all first run, I remember even waiting them out and moving them around too.  I’m gonna repeat these experiments with timers going, crushed weighed samples and see what I get.
> 
> I did take a quarter tab of LSD too, not much but maybe my minds messingvwith the puddles.  Figured I’d mention it regardless.
> 
> -GC


1/4 tab, assuming 25ug or above, can be surprisingly effective and impactful. Cerrainly less can be more in some ways and situations.

And more is more in others lol.


----------



## mars2025

indigoaura said:


> I did not even think about the various companies providing slightly different reagents. I ordered from Dancesafe because they were a bit cheaper, but I really do need to get the exact same one as G_Chem.



I ordered from Dancesafe too.   Later found Elevation Chemicals, which seem a lot cheaper.   Haven't ordered from them yet, and don't know anything else about them, except the website says they support MAPS and ship out "freshly made reagents."





__





						The Ultimate Test Kit Package: Marquis Mandelin Mecke Simon's Robadope Ehrlich Liebermann and Froehde Reagent Testing Kit
					

The Ultimate Test Kit Package: Marquis Mandelin Mecke Simon’s Robadope Ehrlich Liebermann and Froehde Reagent Testing Kit. One 5 mL bottles of all regents.




					elevationchemicals.com


----------



## mars2025

G_Chem said:


> Goddamnit, well just did a side by side with the Liebermann hoping to replicate my results and have a better idea on the color changes.  And they all turned a maroon over time this time.... Fuck me im sorry guys.  To varying extents I suppose and at varying times but not different enough to be positive.



G_Chem, thanks for doing all this work and posting your results!  Very few of us have access to so many samples AND the knowledge to rate them as magic or not. 

I was wondering if you could test your samples with MDMA purity test from EZTest.  I had decent results with it, esp for pills near 50% MDMA content.  It's harder to tell 80% from 90% purity based on color saturation.  If I you have extra sample and an extra test, I guess you can dump 3x the amount (60mg) into the test tube to see what this test shows for 100% purity, but I don't have that much.

It'd be great if we found that magic simply correlates with purity more often than not.  A while back Hilo had a meh sample that MS tested at 82% and a magic one that tested at 91 or something close.  This thread decided that 82 and 91 were too close to cause that much difference in effect.  But on the other hand, 82% has 2x more impurities, so maybe there is some purity threshold where for most users you really need to have >90% purity to approach the magic zone.  And Indigo's sample, which was ok/meh, also tested at only 80. 

There is another interesting factor for this test for high purity samples, which I think fits neatly with your color id angle.  Most charts and photos show only shades of brown.  But one DNM listing I saw advertised very pure product and showed a picture of this exact test with a very clear shade of purple with bright orange on top.  If I remember correctly, that orange looked exactly like the 15-minute mark on the color chart.  But the picture of actual test tubes from testkitplus shows only shades of brown.  Here are some pics of the test results.  I'd be very curious to see if any of your samples go through the purple/orange stage at 15-30 minutes.  



			https://testkitplus.com/wp-content/uploads/images/reactions/mdma-purity-test-kit-color-chart.jpg
		









						MDMA - Purity and Mandelin
					

Hi guys,   Got a new batch of MDMA crystal and ran it through the EZ test kit purity test and Mandelin test, looks ok to me on the purity test but the Mandelin looks a bit iffy. Looking for a second opinion before I bin it  Purity test after 45 minutes  Mandelin test to show tint  Mandelin solid...




					www.bluelight.org


----------



## mars2025

user666 said:


> Yes, it can be a problem but if you leave a *white or gray sheet of paper somewhere in the photo frame* and take the photo in unchanging artificial light ( not in a variable sunlight ! ) then it is possible to do white balance and color correction at the recipient's side very accurately.
> One gotcha, that white piece of paper should *not* have any fluorescent whitening agents added to it (like inkjet papers often do) because such papers make their own blue light.   See:











						Spot Plate, porcelain, 12 cavities
					

Use this porcelain spot plate to perform multiple reactions on very small amounts of materials.




					www.homesciencetools.com
				




It's a bit of a hassle, but if you know what color you expect (e.g. purple or brown), you can also take a reaction plate (spot plate) and pre-fill most cavities with different shades of the expected color, from darker to lighter.  Use paint or dye and dilute with water: 10 drops of dye in each cavity, then 1 drop of water in cavity 1, two drops in cavity 2 and so on.  So there'll be an actual color palette right in front of your camera.  If you fill it the same every time, you got a constant real-world color scale from one measurement to the next without relying on photos


----------



## mars2025

I hope I'm not polluting this thread with all my messages...  I found two posts on Reddit comparing pre-ban 80's MDMA to today's brand-name Dutch pills.  These two users seem to be saying it's close (#1) and close but no cigar (#2).  Just thought it'd be useful to add to the anecdotal evidence we have here.

from MDMA/comments/4nizbn/americans_and_cp/
"shelly3769: 3 years ago: i'm probably way older than most of you.  i started rolling in the mid 80's when mdma was legal in the us   it was made illegal my junior year of high school but was still plentiful.  the presses that i've had from europe recently: yellow wbs,  red ups, red supremes, both orange and blue teslas, pink red bulls   not sure if they are cp but if they are, they are the closest i've had to mdma from the 80's"


from MDMA/comments/d9dz4d/pmk_glycidate/
"Logical_Vast: 7 months ago: I have had some of the well known presses  A OG orange CP Tesla when those were in circulation a few months and whoever stamps the pills NL that's not CP but I assume they use the same Chinese sources.  They were good I was rolling hard but it was not like the old days when I would bet my American black market pills had 80-100 mg at most. ... I don't know I'm old and I've used a lot of MDMA.  It could just be me but the true magic is not there even if I do enjoy the music and hug strangers.  I liked the CP's but it's not the same. Young people don't know any better."


----------



## mars2025

G_Chem said:


> I’m at a loss truly, my only guess is maybe I didn’t wait long enough last time and the magic turned quicker.  This time I moved the puddles around which seemed to then show maroon in them all to varying extents.
> 
> Again my apologies, what baffles me is that this change in color happened only with the meh first time around.  I can’t believe they didn’t turn reddish at all first run, I remember even waiting them out and moving them around too.  I’m gonna repeat these experiments with timers going, crushed weighed samples and see what I get.
> 
> -GC



This may be a dumb question, but in addition to crushed weighted samples, do I/you also need to

1.  Try to measure the exact volume of the reagent(s) being added?  Need a different dropper for each reagent (?)
2.  Use a lid for the reaction plate to reduce exposure to air
3.  Ask another person if the colors look different to her/him.  This is to avoid confirmation bias.

Last message from me today, I promise


----------



## user666

The ambient temperature also affects the colorimetric reagents.


----------



## AutoTripper

mars2025 said:


> I hope I'm not polluting this thread with all my messages...  I found two posts on Reddit comparing pre-ban 80's MDMA to today's brand-name Dutch pills.  These two users seem to be saying it's close (#1) and close but no cigar (#2).  Just thought it'd be useful to add to the anecdotal evidence we have here.
> 
> from MDMA/comments/4nizbn/americans_and_cp/
> "shelly3769: 3 years ago: i'm probably way older than most of you.  i started rolling in the mid 80's when mdma was legal in the us   it was made illegal my junior year of high school but was still plentiful.  the presses that i've had from europe recently: yellow wbs,  red ups, red supremes, both orange and blue teslas, pink red bulls   not sure if they are cp but if they are, they are the closest i've had to mdma from the 80's"
> 
> 
> from MDMA/comments/d9dz4d/pmk_glycidate/
> "Logical_Vast: 7 months ago: I have had some of the well known presses  A OG orange CP Tesla when those were in circulation a few months and whoever stamps the pills NL that's not CP but I assume they use the same Chinese sources.  They were good I was rolling hard but it was not like the old days when I would bet my American black market pills had 80-100 mg at most. ... I don't know I'm old and I've used a lot of MDMA.  It could just be me but the true magic is not there even if I do enjoy the music and hug strangers.  I liked the CP's but it's not the same. Young people don't know any better."


Interesting to me this is. The chemistry goes over my weary head, but I love these subjective reports from long term experienced users.

But I would say- rather contrasting.  One person saying- clisest to the 80's.

The other- like, not all that really.


----------



## indigoaura

AutoTripper said:


> Interesting to me this is. The chemistry goes over my weary head, but I love these subjective reports from long term experienced users.
> 
> But I would say- rather contrasting.  One person saying- clisest to the 80's.
> 
> The other- like, not all that really.



Taken at face value, these posts could line up with the hypothesis that early illegal product (90s-00s) had active impurities that improved the experience (Leuckart?), and pre-ban/modern product lacks those impurities.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Taken at face value, these posts could line up with the hypothesis that early illegal product (90s-00s) had active impurities that improved the experience (Leuckart?), and pre-ban/modern product lacks those impurities.


I hope not, but we must be open to these possibilities.
The fact that the MDMA from MAPS dilates the pupils an the Meh MDMA does not is an argument against it ...if we assume that MAPS has the pure stuff.


----------



## rainey

G_Chem said:


> Please tell me that’s a picture of you FUB’s I’ve always wondered what your crazy self looked like
> 
> 
> Also I have to agree FUBAR with your taste assessment.  So when I tried Sample 1 I noticed the bitterness was kinda more acrid, something almost more “synthetic/chemically” about it compared to other presses and shards.  It was also significantly less bitter overall than I was assuming based on the supposed mg content.
> 
> 
> As to 3Point, I unfortunately probably can’t get a video but I may redo the experiment with all samples side by side and a timer.  Maybe pictures but I’m not confident with my abilities to not like leave my home address on the pic data or whatever lol.
> 
> -GC












						Exif Pilot
					

Download Exif Pilot for Windows to create, view, and edit EXIF data.




					download.cnet.com
				




Remove all exif data


----------



## Wilson Wilson

Don't install anything from Cnet, they bundle random unwanted software into their installers that's almost impossible to remove.

Here's the official site for that Exif software, use this link instead:






						Editing, Creating and Viewing EXIF data with free Exif editor
					

Exif Pilot - free exif editor. View, create and edit EXIF, EXIF GPS, IPTC, and XMP data. Import or export EXIF or IPTC tags from/to XML, MS Excel or Text files.




					www.colorpilot.com


----------



## rainey

AutoTripper said:


> Interesting to me this is. The chemistry goes over my weary head, but I love these subjective reports from long term experienced users.
> 
> But I would say- rather contrasting.  One person saying- clisest to the 80's.
> 
> The other- like, not all that really.





mars2025 said:


> I hope I'm not polluting this thread with all my messages...  I found two posts on Reddit comparing pre-ban 80's MDMA to today's brand-name Dutch pills.  These two users seem to be saying it's close (#1) and close but no cigar (#2).  Just thought it'd be useful to add to the anecdotal evidence we have here.
> 
> from MDMA/comments/4nizbn/americans_and_cp/
> "shelly3769: 3 years ago: i'm probably way older than most of you.  i started rolling in the mid 80's when mdma was legal in the us   it was made illegal my junior year of high school but was still plentiful.  the presses that i've had from europe recently: yellow wbs,  red ups, red supremes, both orange and blue teslas, pink red bulls   not sure if they are cp but if they are, they are the closest i've had to mdma from the 80's"
> 
> 
> from MDMA/comments/d9dz4d/pmk_glycidate/
> "Logical_Vast: 7 months ago: I have had some of the well known presses  A OG orange CP Tesla when those were in circulation a few months and whoever stamps the pills NL that's not CP but I assume they use the same Chinese sources.  They were good I was rolling hard but it was not like the old days when I would bet my American black market pills had 80-100 mg at most. ... I don't know I'm old and I've used a lot of MDMA.  It could just be me but the true magic is not there even if I do enjoy the music and hug strangers.  I liked the CP's but it's not the same. Young people don't know any better."



FYI: >>>>whoever stamps the pills NL that's not CP but I assume they use the same Chinese sources.<<<<<

NL Stands for Netherlands and these pills are known as qdance pills.....recently and currently they are Pirelli, Skype, Tic Tac, Brazucas, Iphone x and 2cb pills Red Harley Davidson and Blue Mario mushroom/1 up///// their ecstasy pills are usually always bi colour pills with the top of the pill different colour to the bottom and are distributed by the dutch masters. They are not made in china they are made in nl. Normally between 200-280mg.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

Q-Dance make some of the best pills out there end of. M&M's and iPhone X's were great.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I'm starting to wonder whether the best stuff is kept for the pill presses and the bulk crystal stuff is the crap leftovers? I've not really bothered with pills since getting back in the saddle, but I'm getting increasingly disillusioned with 'crystal'...


----------



## Wilson Wilson

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I'm starting to wonder whether the best stuff is kept for the pill presses and the bulk crystal stuff is the crap leftovers? I've not really bothered with pills since getting back in the saddle, but I'm getting increasingly disillusioned with 'crystal'...



Honestly a plausible theory. It's worth trying some proper Q-Dance pills see what kind of difference you notice. I'd be bloody amazed if you were disappointed by one of those unless your serotonin receptors are fried.


----------



## mars2025

So 'NL' is the stamp of qdance? I've heard of qdance and seen the NL logo but never connected the two.  Thanks!  But why are they so common in London, but seemingly rare in the US?  Don't see any US-based sources for them at all.  By the way, "the same Chinese sources" probably refers to the sources of the precursor chemicals (the reddit thread was about pmk_glycidate ), it's not saying the pills are made in China


----------



## mars2025

Wilson Wilson said:


> Honestly a plausible theory. It's worth trying some proper Q-Dance pills see what kind of difference you notice. I'd be bloody amazed if you were disappointed by one of those unless your serotonin receptors are fried.



But all this brings us back to the OP, who was indeed disappointed by modern pills, as compared to his very pure Shulgin-style MDMA from San Francisco.  Theories?  

Here is Le Junk's opinion that started this thread.  His magicDMA does not seem to have active impurities and is probably not Leuckart.  

"
LeJunk (April 2016): I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.

Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.

Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk. "


----------



## RyybsNarcs

mars2025 said:


> So 'NL' is the stamp of qdance? I've heard of qdance and seen the NL logo but never connected the two.  Thanks!  But why are they so common in London, but seemingly rare in the US?  Don't see any US-based sources for them at all.  By the way, "the same Chinese sources" probably refers to the sources of the precursor chemicals (the reddit thread was about pmk_glycidate ), it's not saying the pills are made in China


Yes, Q-Dance crew stamps their pills with small "NL" stamp on back of the pill. Pills are bi-colour, so it's hard(er) to replicate their pills.

Has anyone here tried any of the Q-Dance crews presses? I'd like to hear if users consider these pills as "Magic" or "Meh". I assume this group press their pills from same MDMA everytime, users claim that every Q-Dance pill feels the same.


----------



## user666

mars2025 said:


> Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.


I've even seen a detailed spectrogram of this ecstasy from the 1980s, in this thread. 



mars2025 said:


> With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.
> With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dilate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  That's a big giveaway you're doing new school MDMA junk. "


Yup


----------



## indigoaura

Other people have recommended I give those Q-Dance pills a try. I don't see them listed in the USA often though. I am also quite suspicious of taking that much MDMA at once. 280 mg seems excessive.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Other people have recommended I give those Q-Dance pills a try. I don't see them listed in the USA often though. I am also quite suspicious of taking that much MDMA at once. 280 mg seems excessive.


280 is heavy your suppose to half them but i usually take full dosed pills since i can handle it but the rush on the come up is very strong and puking is always a big possibility. High dose good mdma is a very psychedelic experince very good for hitting high level of unity with the entire universe and melting into the couch people and getting strong strong mdma visuals very good to combo this high dose with cannabis to relax from the heavy stimulation since your lungs will be able to smoke alot like its nothing.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ 

I am more than familiar with the rush of a good pill. However, it concerns me that the rush used to come easily from 80 mg pills and now these 280 mg pills are being sold, and people are dying more often and having more serious side effects. Something is not quite right with this picture.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> @TripSitterNZ
> 
> I am more than familiar with the rush of a good pill. However, it concerns me that the rush used to come easily from 80 mg pills and now these 280 mg pills are being sold, and people are dying more often and having more serious side effects. Something is not quite right with this picture.


if its a good high dose pill i get very little of a comedown. The only people dying from them are idiots in the UK usually who eat like 3-5 at once for some mad reason. Usually old pills were still 150 mg +. These new school pills i never had a problem with comedowns on them if they were only pure mdma but i have had counterfeit presses with various cathoines and meth added in with the mdma which kept me up for 30 hours and let me feeling horrible for weeks. 

When bought right from the people who pressed them high their recommendations are take only a half and maybe a quarter for a booster since mdma is extremely cheap these days is usually one of the reasons why they have alot in them they are still making way more money on pressed pills than selling just grams of crystal. 

Alot of presses are usually mdma + caffeine or mdma with some speed or just mdma alone if its from holland but i have seen many people start pressing pills here with RC's and other shit so always test kit them. 

A high dose mdma experince  should be you totally melted away in a very realistic visuals dreamy type state pure pure love blisssed out but it does carry alot of danger with body temperature and overheating i always have a fan on me if i eat that much. I once used those highdoses to keep myself skinny always burnt like 2-3 kg of water weight / fat each time i ate such a strong pill.


----------



## RyybsNarcs

indigoaura said:


> Other people have recommended I give those Q-Dance pills a try. I don't see them listed in the USA often though. I am also quite suspicious of taking that much MDMA at once. 280 mg seems excessive.


I've seen many reports claiming that half a Q-Dance pill (~120mg of MDMA) almost made them floored, so I wouldn't take a whole one. 

I don't know if it's a sign of "MagicMDMA" to get floored while rolling, but I think such a low dose (compared to the doses needed with the worst "Meh" samples) says a good thing about Q-Dance pills.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> However, it concerns me that the rush used to come easily from 80 mg pills and now these 280 mg pills are being sold, and people are dying more often and having more serious side effects. Something is not quite right with this picture.


I agree.
The high dose pills are more expensive to manufacture, so there must be another reason why they put 280mg in them when 100mg was enough for decades.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> I agree.
> The high dose pills are more expensive to manufacture, so there must be another reason why they put 280mg in them when 100mg was enough for decades.


they are actually cheaper and more profit not more expensive lmao. They make way more profit selling pressed pills than raw grams of mdma. Even decades ago some pressed pills would have up to 200-300 mg mdma. If you truly want to know what presses had in them go message shaun atwood or wildman they ran the biggest ecascty importation ring in america in the 90s.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

mars2025 said:


> So 'NL' is the stamp of qdance? I've heard of qdance and seen the NL logo but never connected the two.  Thanks!  But why are they so common in London, but seemingly rare in the US?  Don't see any US-based sources for them at all.  By the way, "the same Chinese sources" probably refers to the sources of the precursor chemicals (the reddit thread was about pmk_glycidate ), it's not saying the pills are made in China



NL stamps are used by a couple different NL based crews, but it's generally considered a sign of quality especially if the pill is also dual colour. Q-Dance is the big well known one.



mars2025 said:


> But all this brings us back to the OP, who was indeed disappointed by modern pills, as compared to his very pure Shulgin-style MDMA from San Francisco.  Theories?
> 
> Here is Le Junk's opinion that started this thread.  His magicDMA does not seem to have active impurities and is probably not Leuckart.
> 
> "
> LeJunk (April 2016): I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk. "



The pills OP described (Teslas and Supremes) are not Q-Dance. I'm not sure who pressed them because the Tesla press for example was a very common one that was knocked out by many different crews in different countries. So it could be any quality of MDMA from any lab in any country in there.

As far as I know Q-Dance pills rarely make their way over to the USA. Likely for logistical reasons, as getting pills into the US from NL is obviously more difficult than sending them across the border to the UK or across the EU. Customs is also far stricter in the US than in pretty much any EU country.

As a result most US pills seem to be domestic presses, which is why meth cuts end up as a common issue over there. I cannot comment on the quality of the MDMA used in US presses because I've never had them.

But I can tell you if you manage to get your hands on Q-Dance pills, and you are someone who is generally disappointed in the quality of MDMA, you will find it to be "magic." I have never had a bad experience off a Q-Dance pill as long as I was smart enough to break them in half because they are like 250mg each, sometimes 280mg or occasionally 300mg.

Half a pill makes for a great floaty loved up night with minimal comedown following. Exactly as people describe good MDMA here. I'm telling ya if there are differences in synthesis that indeed cause this issue, the answer is to be an MDMA snob and get only the top quality pills from the best crews.


----------



## rainey

RyybsNarcs said:


> Yes, Q-Dance crew stamps their pills with small "NL" stamp on back of the pill. Pills are bi-colour, so it's hard(er) to replicate their pills.
> 
> Has anyone here tried any of the Q-Dance crews presses? I'd like to hear if users consider these pills as "Magic" or "Meh". I assume this group press their pills from same MDMA everytime, users claim that every Q-Dance pill feels the same.




I had a 7 year break from ecstasy and when I started again 2 years ago it was qdance pills. They are strong yes but I get no loved up, no association with music, no empathy, just feel heavily drugged all the time so although they are the "strongest" pills and consistent with it, they are NOTHING like old skool E. Its not serotonin receptors because I took old skool E and got full magic effects again.

I still buy qdance as they are the "best of a bad lot" but are just very strong meh IMO. There is no midweek suicidal depression from qdance like there used to be from magic pills!


----------



## Wilson Wilson

rainey said:


> I had a 7 year break from ecstasy and when I started again 2 years ago it was qdance pills. They are strong yes but I get no loved up, no association with music, no empathy, just feel heavily drugged all the time so although they are the "strongest" pills and consistent with it, they are NOTHING like old skool E. Its not serotonin receptors because I took old skool E and got full magic effects again.
> 
> I still buy qdance as they are the "best of a bad lot" but are just very strong meh IMO. There is no midweek suicidal depression from qdance like there used to be from magic pills!



Man really? I get crazy levels of music enjoyment, huge desire to socialise, empathy,  euphoria, physical sensations, just pure monging out, everything one could want from a good roll when I use Q-Dance pills. I definitely feel all those lovely serotonin effects. I take a half though because a full one is too much and I feel like you hit diminishing returns past 200mg.


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> they are actually cheaper and more profit not more expensive lmao.


No, 280mg MDMA HCl costs more than 80mg of MDMA HCl.  Prove me wrong.


----------



## user666

rainey said:


> I had a 7 year break from ecstasy and when I started again 2 years ago it was qdance pills.


How much do your eyes dilate on 100mg on an empty stomach?  What's your body weight ?


----------



## user666

Wilson Wilson said:


> ...just pure monging out,


That's a good way to describe it.

How much do your eyes dilate on 100mg on an empty stomach? What's your body weight ?


----------



## Wilson Wilson

user666 said:


> That's a good way to describe it.
> 
> How much do your eyes dilate on 100mg on an empty stomach? What's your body weight ?



I always notice significant pupil dilation from good MDMA. Proper saucer pupils. I'm about 11-12 stone.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ You are making a lot of claims without backing evidence. "Even decades ago some pressed pills would have up to 200-300 mg mdma."

When you browse the testing results from the early 00s, that is not what you see. The total weight of the whole pill might be 300 mg, but about half of that is binder. Just go to ecstasydata.org and run a search for 1999-2003. 

Example: these were some of the best pills I did...








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #62 - Diamond, -1
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org


----------



## rainey

The pills up until about 2007 were nowhere near 150mg they were 70-120mg

Wilson Wilson......did you take E before 2007? Also you say "monged out" .....now you may have a different definition of that phrase than us in the uk but "monged out" is most definitely not a "good" effect from E it is the opposite...it means sitting in a corner drugged out of your head not wanting to talk to anyone not wanting to dance with no euphoria or music appreciation or anything "good"..... just tired and wasted ....a complete mess!


----------



## popsweat

I posted this pic in the thread before but he is a pic of the source mdma that goes into the qdance presses.






						MDMA.JPG - AnonFiles
					






					anonfile.com
				




As far as dosage looking at pill reports same crew was pressing since late 2000s and I would see up to about 120mg. Starting 2013/2014 is when their 200mg+ presses started coming out which most had break lines since they aren't necessarily supposed to be single dose.


----------



## indigoaura

Just got an email from International Energy Control.

Turns out that they did not provide me with the full data that I should have been provided with for the sample I sent in back in November. I have been emailing them non-stop since then, and I just now found this out.

I should have received the UV report as well as a GCMS report that would have shown the GCMS results for all compounds in the sample. 

However, they only gave me the UV report.

Now, they are unable to access their lab and cannot send it, but once they are allowed back into their lab they are going to send me the GCMS data and maybe a .ms file with additional data. 

This will be very helpful as this is the sample that I have taken twice now, and @opposable-thumbs and his wife also found it to be "meh."

So, maybe this .ms file and GCMS data will help us to get a better idea of this particular sample.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> No, 280mg MDMA HCl costs more than 80mg of MDMA HCl.  Prove me wrong.


no lol 280 mg of mdma is cheap these days rather than selling a whole gram alone not pressed. MDMA is the cheapest drug to make on this planet its sells at wholesale for way less than weed. Pressing  them into pills makes them. x4 the profit.


Anyways on a side note MAPS will answer your question in the future with this post https://maps.org/news/bulletin/arti...istry-of-mdma-from-research-to-patient-access


----------



## mars2025

@wilsonwilson
I have the exact same question.  Can you compare qdance to either pure white MDMA powder, like what the OP describes, or to MDMA of >10 years ago (1985-2007)?

@wilsonwilson.
I also considered the possibility that OP's Teslas may have been fake, but he says "I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA."  What do you make of that?  By the way Teslas and Supremes are C|P.  US actually gets lots of Dutch presses, just never those two color qdances so it probably isn't due to US Customs.

@user666
1.  Massive doses may be a marketing arms race.  All pills are 120 to begin with.  Then one lab puts out a 250mg pill for the same price.  Buyers feel that the stronger pill is a better value for their money and snap it up.  Other labs have to up the dose to keep up.  And so on.  A pill becomes infamous for the media warnings about how strong it is.  Unsophisticated buyers seek it out.  And a maker producing 100mg magic pills loses business.

2.  Legal angle: if you're caught with two pills, you may be a charged as a dealer.  A half a pill seems "safer" in that way.  EDIT: I am talking about the buyer's perceived risk.  Walking around with half a pill, or trying to sneak half a pill into a club FEELS less risky than 2 pills.  The legal reality may or may not be the same.  Also, not a major factor here but worth noting than up to 1 pill is basically legal in some LatAm countries

3.  If MDMA is manufactured by the tonne, the lab can easily end up with more than they can sell.  Lower demand than anticipated.  Happens with every other product.  They can't store it (space,risk) [EDIT: I was wrong.  They can and do store it.  Dutch lab bust last fall found 850kg of MDMA hidden in walls] and they can't destroy it the way farmers destroy extra product (shows up in the water and they get caught).  So they have to press more into each pill.  It becomes an out valve for overproduction.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

rainey said:


> The pills up until about 2007 were nowhere near 150mg they were 70-120mg
> 
> Wilson Wilson......did you take E before 2007? Also you say "monged out" .....now you may have a different definition of that phrase than us in the uk but "monged out" is most definitely not a "good" effect from E it is the opposite...it means sitting in a corner drugged out of your head not wanting to talk to anyone not wanting to dance with no euphoria or music appreciation or anything "good"..... just tired and wasted ....a complete mess!



I'm only in my 20's so unfortunately no I didn't do any MDMA before around 2014 or so.

When I say monged out I don't mean in the benzo sense where you're just out your head drooling in a corner, I mean more like I can feel all these physical sensations and mental euphoria all at once so all I wanna do is rub my hands along my hair and over my skin because it just feels good and I can do that for what feels like hours (probably more like 15 mins lol) and I'm just kind of lost in the moment if that makes sense? It's bloody difficult to describe a good roll.

I always get the urge to stick my headphones on because music sounds absolutely fucking amazing, I wanna hug everyone, I literally walked through stingy nettle and didn't notice because it just felt good at the time. Then I tell my mates I love them and ring up everyone in my phone if no one is around IRL.

All the shit you'd expect from someone who is on some strong E to be honest. Never felt let down by such experiences, they're exactly what I'm looking for when I use Mandy.

Now how exactly that compares to the early 2000's stuff I couldn't tell you but I can say that I've been impressed with the quality of most of my MDMA supply and to me it's certainly felt like "magic."


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Wilson Wilson said:


> I'm only in my 20's so unfortunately no I didn't do any MDMA before around 2014 or so.
> 
> When I say monged out I don't mean in the benzo sense where you're just out your head drooling in a corner, I mean more like I can feel all these physical sensations and mental euphoria all at once so all I wanna do is rub my hands along my hair and over my skin because it just feels good and I can do that for what feels like hours (probably more like 15 mins lol) and I'm just kind of lost in the moment if that makes sense? It's bloody difficult to describe a good roll.
> 
> I always get the urge to stick my headphones on because music sounds absolutely fucking amazing, I wanna hug everyone, I literally walked through stingy nettle and didn't notice because it just felt good at the time. Then I tell my mates I love them and ring up everyone in my phone if no one is around IRL.
> 
> All the shit you'd expect from someone who is on some strong E to be honest. Never felt let down by such experiences, they're exactly what I'm looking for when I use Mandy.
> 
> Now how exactly that compares to the early 2000's stuff I couldn't tell you but I can say that I've been impressed with the quality of most of my MDMA supply and to me it's certainly felt like "magic."


sounds exactly like oldschool mdma. Most mdma is way higher quality than ever before especially if you live in europe and are not getting your pills from a crackhead. Hell i knew people who where smuggling in 30k + pills at a time and they were eating 50 + pills on the weekend during the early 2000''s. Plus australian labs were pumping out hundreds of kgs of mdma at a time. American domestic pills were the ones which were super weak in the 90s been dosed with 80 mg containg about 30% mdma of the entire pill but in cali and Arizona you had proper smugglers bringing in millions of dollars of good dutch pills which were dosed alot higher 125-150 mg. Yet in holland itself you could find any type of weights speaking dutch helped alot since no one in holland ever liked foreigners that much anyway they were a good source of income to sell overpriced underweight product to the imbeciles who came to buy them. Shit man it use to be hilarious watching my fellow dutch men just speak mad shit about the idiot they were ripping off on weight and prices infront of them in dutch  and they didn't have a clue.


----------



## indigoaura

@Wilson Wilson 

You are using the term, "monged out," differently than we used the term. What you are describing here, "I can feel all these physical sensations and mental euphoria all at once so all I wanna do is rub my hands along my hair and over my skin because it just feels good and I can do that for what feels like hours" sounds like a good roll. That is how MDMA often hit me with a good pill. Sometimes it was overwhelming and there was a "I need to sit down for a minute" sensation. The need to rub my hands on my clothes, through my hair, or on my body was characteristic of a really good pill.

Everything else you describe, "I always get the urge to stick my headphones on because music sounds absolutely fucking amazing, I wanna hug everyone, I literally walked through stingy nettle and didn't notice because it just felt good at the time. Then I tell my mates I love them and ring up everyone in my phone if no one is around IRL" also describes an excellent roll.

When I use the term monged out, it does not mean any of those things. It means you are spaced out in more of a benzo sense. You are staring straight ahead and laying or sitting. You can't be bothered to get up or talk to your mates, or change the music playing. It is not the desirable loved up outcome where you are rubbing all over everything and everyone and hugging strangers.


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> no lol 280 mg of mdma is cheap these days rather


"These days" ?   are you comparing prices "these days" to "the other days" ...like in other decades ?
Because if you are it is an apples to oranges comparison.
I was comparing the price of 280mg in 2020 to the price of 100mg in 2020....not other decades !



TripSitterNZ said:


> than selling a whole gram alone not pressed.


Are you comparing the cost of MDMA HCl powder to tabletted MDMA HCl ?
...Because if you are it still does not mean that a 280mg tablet is cheaper than a 100mg tablet.

My whole point was that it does not make sense for them to make MORE EXPENSIVE 280mg tablets when 100mg would have been enough AND CHEAPER....unless they are compensating for low quality with a higher dose.



TripSitterNZ said:


> Pressing  them into pills makes them. x4 the profit.


That may be but that only proves that MDMA Hcl in tabletted form is more expensive than powdered MDMA HCl.
Still, the lower dosed pills are cheaper to produce than a larger dosed pills, thus smaller pills generate more profit per mg of MDMA HCl, so there is no economical incentive to increase the dose.



TripSitterNZ said:


> MDMA is the cheapest drug to make on this planet its sells at wholesale for way less than weed.


Really!?  What about the production cost of Meth ?


----------



## user666

mars2025 said:


> 1.  Massive doses may be a marketing arms race.


Yes, that might be but that assumes that profitability is less important than marketing.



mars2025 said:


> 3.  If MDMA is manufactured by the tonne, the lab can easily end up with more than they can sell.


It can happen, but such phenomenon would be periodic and I do not see waves of highly dosed pills. I see a steady supply of them.


----------



## Negi

user666 said:


> Yes, that might be but that assumes that profitability is less important than marketing.



The high dosed pills are still extremely profitable because of how cheap the MDMA is for the people making them. Plus you can sell what is known to be a high dosed pill for more than one that's a lower dose. No dealer is going to buy your 100mg pills for the same price they can get 250mg pills for. Here's an article from 2015 explaining it all: https://dancesafe.org/why-are-ecstasy-pills-so-strong-at-the-moment/


> So why are such strong pills in circulation? Well, our sources say that the crew making these is based in the Netherlands and are the people responsible for creating some of the strongest pills to be found in recent years.
> Known as the Partyflock or Q-dance crew, other pills in their portfolio include the Q-Dance, Defqon, Speakers, Ferraris, Partyflock, Android, Tri-Force, and more recently Heinekens and Gold Bars. The next pill in the series will apparently be Red UPS (all that means is some new food colouring in the mix).
> Partyflock is a social network that is relatively unknown outside of the Netherlands, and Q-Dance is a Dutch producer of music festivals both in NL and abroad. There is no connection between these legitimate organisations and the pressers of these pills, who have hijacked these brand logos.
> This crew takes pride in producing premium, hard-to-fake pills in new shapes and sizes and colours, usually containing extremely large doses of very pure MDMA. Dutch users who know the ‘brand’ tend to use just quarters or halves initially.
> The ‘£10 mega pill’ has been doing the rounds for a good few summers now but the tablets that are now being produced are super-strong because there is more MDMA around in the EU at the moment than there has been for years. Prices are also dropping lower than ever, with grams available at retail level for £25-£40 and ounce prices dropping below £500. Looking further up the supply chain, kilogrammes are cheaper than they have been in years, at around £8,000, and there is a glut of the drug all across Europe.
> That’s because of precursor innovation – new ways to make MDMA have been found, as one ecstasy chemist who worked in a Dutch lab told me. Dutch chemists have found a new recipe – they are using a chemical called PMK-Glycidate, which is legal, rather than PMK, which is banned, as the main ingredient. That has translated into higher-dosed, purer pills all across the EU.
> Pills of this quality are sold at higher prices than lower-dosed counterparts, and the Dutch team making them know that by making stronger pills than anyone else, they stay ahead of the competition. They release eye-catching pills in never-before seen shapes and sizes, with huge doses of MDMA, and corner the market for a few weeks – at which point copies arrive and the team release a new, novel shape and colour. But beware, these counterfeit pills will be from a different manufacturer and will vary in quality.


Note that current European MDMA prices are even lower than the 2015 prices in the article.


----------



## draculic acid69

RyybsNarcs said:


> I've seen many reports claiming that half a Q-Dance pill (~120mg of MDMA) almost made them floored, so I wouldn't take a whole one.
> 
> I don't know if it's a sign of "MagicMDMA" to get floored while rolling, but I think such a low dose (compared to the doses needed with the worst "Meh" samples) says a good thing about Q-Dance pills.


I can't get on board with the whole 200+mg mdma in one pill thing.a pill
should be 100mg mdma.a single dose.
Imagine someone who has never had a pill taking 280mg of good mdma.puking blacking out and possibly ending up in the drunktank or a psych ward are possible.anymore than a single dose per pill is dangerous.not everyone is going to know to only have half.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @TripSitterNZ You are making a lot of claims without backing evidence. "Even decades ago some pressed pills would have up to 200-300 mg mdma."
> 
> When you browse the testing results from the early 00s, that is not what you see. The total weight of the whole pill might be 300 mg, but about half of that is binder. Just go to ecstasydata.org and run a search for 1999-2003.
> 
> Example: these were some of the best pills I did...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #62 - Diamond, -1
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org


All the pills I used to get were between
280-330mg weight containing ~100mg
mdma.the only time this varied was mbdp pills which had ~140mg in them.
the pills still weighed between 280-330mg each.


----------



## draculic acid69

mars2025 said:


> @wilsonwilson
> I have the exact same question.  Can you compare qdance to either pure white MDMA powder, like what the OP describes, or to MDMA of >10 years ago (1985-2007)?
> 
> @wilsonwilson.
> I also considered the possibility that OP's Teslas may have been fake, but he says "I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA."  What do you make of that?  By the way Teslas and Supremes are C|P.  US actually gets lots of Dutch presses, just never those two color qdances so it probably isn't due to US Customs.
> 
> @user666
> 1.  Massive doses may be a marketing arms race.  All pills are 120 to begin with.  Then one lab puts out a 250mg pill for the same price.  Buyers feel that the stronger pill is a better value for their money and snap it up.  Other labs have to up the dose to keep up.  And so on.  A pill becomes infamous for the media warnings about how strong it is.  Unsophisticated buyers seek it out.  And a maker producing 100mg magic pills loses business.
> 
> 2.  Legal angle: if you're caught with two pills, you may be a charged as a dealer.  A half a pill seems "safer" in that way
> 
> 3.  If MDMA is manufactured by the tonne, the lab can easily end up with more than they can sell.  Lower demand than anticipated.  Happens with every other product.  They can't store it (space,risk) and they can't destroy it the way farmers destroy extra product (shows up in the water and they get caught).  So they have to press more into each pill.  It becomes an out valve for overproduction.



Firstly two pills will not get u a trafficking rap where half won't.
Secondly noone with 100mg magic
pills won't bounce back after maybe losing some business.itll be temporary
as if large amounts of shit r your competition u need not worry.secondly
excess mdma has never been a problem.burying it is not risky.if u have already made a ton of mdma storing some is not much more of a risk.why would anyone destroy excess product unless the cops are on your ass? There will always be demand again in the future. U made some very stupid points.


----------



## indigoaura

draculic acid69 said:


> I can't get on board with the whole 200+mg mdma in one pill thing.a pill
> should be 100mg mdma.a single dose.
> Imagine someone who has never had a pill taking 280mg of good mdma.puking blacking out and possibly ending up in the drunktank or a psych ward are possible.anymore than a single dose per pill is dangerous.not everyone is going to know to only have half.



And this is why I find it suspicious. I don't think manufacturers would risk the type of negative publicity likely to result from newbies taking the whole pill and getting hospitalized. Can you imagine someone deciding to "double drop?" If it is regular MDMA that is functioning like MDMA should, then 280 mg in a pill is dangerous. Not everyone is going to know to half the pill.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

indigoaura said:


> @Wilson Wilson
> 
> You are using the term, "monged out," differently than we used the term. What you are describing here, "I can feel all these physical sensations and mental euphoria all at once so all I wanna do is rub my hands along my hair and over my skin because it just feels good and I can do that for what feels like hours" sounds like a good roll. That is how MDMA often hit me with a good pill. Sometimes it was overwhelming and there was a "I need to sit down for a minute" sensation. The need to rub my hands on my clothes, through my hair, or on my body was characteristic of a really good pill.
> 
> Everything else you describe, "I always get the urge to stick my headphones on because music sounds absolutely fucking amazing, I wanna hug everyone, I literally walked through stingy nettle and didn't notice because it just felt good at the time. Then I tell my mates I love them and ring up everyone in my phone if no one is around IRL" also describes an excellent roll.
> 
> When I use the term monged out, it does not mean any of those things. It means you are spaced out in more of a benzo sense. You are staring straight ahead and laying or sitting. You can't be bothered to get up or talk to your mates, or change the music playing. It is not the desirable loved up outcome where you are rubbing all over everything and everyone and hugging strangers.



Yeah there was a miscommunication so I explained exactly what I meant. When I say monged out I mean not overly energetic so you just feel the dopamine, but a strong serotonin hit where you feel chilled and loved up. Some MD feels more energetic and I don't rate that too highly because if I wanted to just be stimmed I'd take regular amphetamine wouldn't I? So when I feel all calm and rolling around on the carpet because everything feels good I call that "monged out" as opposed to being stimulated from too much dopamine not enough serotonin.

I agree it was an excellent roll. In fact the exact roll I'm remembering here was on my birthday with some good mates so it was especially good to me.

I remember we were in a restaurant and I was just rolling my face around and running my hands through my hair, then when the waitress came over to ask if we needed anything I apparently turned completely normal and said "nah we're good thanks" then when she walked away I went back to being all on drugs again haha.

Then on the way home after they left I walked through nettles and just thought I was rubbing against some leaves, didn't notice until the next morning when I had scratches all up my arm!

Other main thing that sticks in my head, which was a bit weird, is the next day my left eye was pointing to the right all day. I've had that happen a couple times since after good MD. No idea why. Curious if it's happened to anyone else here actually.

Good to know that what I've described sounds like the early stuff. The pill I took on that particular occasion was an M&M pill by Q-Dance. This is why I rank them so highly. Some of my best rolls on those.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

The skittles with NL stamps i believe are also q-dance are highly rated here as a import 270 mg mdma with a half line break line. The fact is that everybody that sells pressies usually warns people to only take half if they not use to high dose pressed pills. 

But for experinced users i have double dropped 300 mg mdma pills and i have seen my friend eat 3 of them once while on mushrooms and still live to the tell  the tale. 

In very heavy mdma users i use to see my friend eat half a gram + every friday night. 


Hell i believe in ireland everybody does 0.5 g bombs. People die from mdma if they are usually too young and have consumed 1 gram + in a single dose but i could care less if somebody wins themselves the darwin award in the age of the internet by forgoing all harm reduction its on the person who died not the pill makers.


----------



## sassyfrass

mars2025 said:


> But all this brings us back to the OP, who was indeed disappointed by modern pills, as compared to his very pure Shulgin-style MDMA from San Francisco.  Theories?
> 
> Here is Le Junk's opinion that started this thread.  His magicDMA does not seem to have active impurities and is probably not Leuckart.
> 
> "
> LeJunk (April 2016): I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a= different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk. "



THIS


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

TripSitterNZ said:


> The skittles with NL stamps i believe are also q-dance are highly rated here as a import 270 mg mdma with a half line break line. The fact is that everybody that sells pressies usually warns people to only take half if they not use to high dose pressed pills.
> 
> But for experinced users i have double dropped 300 mg mdma pills and i have seen my friend eat 3 of them once while on mushrooms and still live to the tell  the tale.
> 
> In very heavy mdma users i use to see my friend eat half a gram + every friday night.
> 
> 
> Hell i believe in ireland everybody does 0.5 g bombs. People die from mdma if they are usually too young and have consumed 1 gram + in a single dose but i could care less if somebody wins themselves the darwin award in the age of the internet by forgoing all harm reduction its on the person who died not the pill makers.



I think you could be inadvertently supporting our concerns about modern MDMA. Even experienced users shouldn't need to be 'double dropping 300mg pills', or doing '0.5g bombs'. Plus the fact that many people die from doing much less than this. Forgoing Harm reduction is very much on the heads of the pill makers who are stuffing ridiculous doses of substandard MDMA in their pills...


----------



## mars2025

draculic acid69 said:


> U made some very stupid points.


I've made many in my life   In this case, point 3 was wrong/stupid.  Point 2 was poorly phrased but accurate and I just edited my post to reflect that.  Point 1 was pretty much spot on as that Mixmag article said.  
Regardless of how we may feel about the risk and ethics of megapills, the most likely explanation is that it's a matter of competitive marketing.  I think that trying to use megadose as evidence of poor quality would be barking up the wrong tree.  There are some 120mg Dutch pills today.  Would we believe them to be better quality?  And were Dutch pills better 10 years ago before megapills?  

Indigo's angle with chem analysis and more user experiences is the way to go imo.  My gf took tiny 70-80mg chips off the 250mg pill and they work the same as 70-80mg chips off a smaller pill


----------



## TripSitterNZ

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I think you could be inadvertently supporting our concerns about modern MDMA. Even experienced users shouldn't need to be 'double dropping 300mg pills', or doing '0.5g bombs'. Plus the fact that many people die from doing much less than this. Forgoing Harm reduction is very much on the heads of the pill makers who are stuffing ridiculous doses of substandard MDMA in their pills...


No heavy drug users are eating this much almost daily for a reason since they love it so much. Your tolerance starts to go up aswell. If your eating half a gram of mdma its for one reason only its go so fucking deep it becomes another experince of time wrapping inside your own mind of the craziest realistic visuals you could experince. Proper care taken to keep your body tempature in check and a proper setting means a person wont die. I have never seen anybody die from less. The thing is that these pills are not substandard. 100 mg of mdma is a good roll but those who eat upwards of 300 mg do it for a reason for the heavy drug culture of pushing the limits and seeing how fucked up you can get. 

I personally love the mdma visuals that become so strong the melting into the oneness of the universe that can be on par with LSD but without the darkness and potential of hell visuals. 

People were eating upwards of 50 + pills in the late 90s and early 2000s on a 3 day weekend binge who use to sell it. So it was even worse back then than it is today. Idk anybody would of just ate one pill back then it was usually 3-5 over the night. 

People either hung out with some very boring people who didn't do this or maybe smarter people who didn't want to kill every last braincell they had. 

the point of high dose mdma rolls is to go beyond and get in touch with the ultimate oneness and love of the entire universe and maybe hit on some NOS on top of it for straight ego death the easy bliss happy way.


----------



## mars2025

rainey said:


> I had a 7 year break from ecstasy and when I started again 2 years ago it was qdance pills. They are strong yes but I get no loved up, no association with music, no empathy, just feel heavily drugged all the time so although they are the "strongest" pills and consistent with it, they are NOTHING like old skool E. Its not serotonin receptors because I took old skool E and got full magic effects again.
> 
> I still buy qdance as they are the "best of a bad lot" but are just very strong meh IMO. There is no midweek suicidal depression from qdance like there used to be from magic pills!



This a very useful report!  May I ask you to elaborate?

1.  Did you use Dutch pills 7 years ago, before your break from ecstasy, or you used powder?  In other words, did Dutch presses ever give you magic effects?  This can tell us if 2020 qdance pills differ from pre-2013 Dutch presses.  

2.  Do you know anything more about the "old skool E" that gave you full magic effects recently?  Since you still buy qdance it seems that you don't have a consistent supply of that old skool E.
Was it powder?  To the best of your knowledge, was it supposed to be Dutch crystal (same stuff as what goes into the qdance pills), or was it a product of your local lab?  Did you know it was old skool E before you took it (like you found your own leftover stash from 7 years ago)?  Any observations on color, smell, taste and how those compare to your E from 7 years ago?


----------



## rainey

I don't know who made the pills but let me clear something up. When I say I didn't take E for 7 years that would be between approx. 2009 until 2016 and then I started buying E from DM and the first I bought was blue and white qdance skypes. Then a few I bought were not qdance. I bought both pills and crystal. I noticed that the pills were strong in the sense that it heavily drugged me but there was very little that I recognised there was no loved up feeling, there was no suddenly leaping to your feet and dancing and not even realising you had stood up. I used to rub my face up and down the back of the sofa, I used to moan and groan with ecstasy, and it used to come in wave after wave running through your body. I used to have this contorted grin on my face which made me look ridiculous. I was simply off my face on these modern pills that's all. The qdance pills, when I started buying them, were just a stronger version of these "drugged" effects. Another thing I noticed with qdance was that there was virtually no smell. Where was that stench of aniseed that I used to get from the old pills? The come down was easier. There was no "running the guts out of myself" in the toilet for about 4 days after (that I used to get with old skool pills). None of the suicidal midweek blues either. It was all completely different. Another thing I noticed was that although marquis went black it was not the same sheer black, like ink, I used to get with old skool it was "different". So I started to mention this on forums and a lot of people agreed with me....people who were older like me and had experienced E pre 2009. However a lot of people tried to convince me it was "loss of magic" and I knew it wasn't so that was when I decided to look out an old stash of mine where I had stashed various drugs years ago including blue loveheart pills from about 2006/7. Everything I have said I experienced (with old skool pills) was there. I got all the old magic effects, so I had just proven to myself there was no "loss of magic". The old skool crystal was completely different as well. It used to be £50 per gram whereas now its £5 per gram. Marquis would go ink black, bubble, fizz, and smoke would come from it. Now it just goes black. Old skool mdma would give you this "glass like" euphoria but modern mdma just gives the same effect as with the modern pills. Twice in the past 3 years I have experienced "almost old skool" effects but it only lasted 3/4 minutes and didn't go anywhere. I don't know where the old skool pills came from as I did not buy online, it was local, but I did frequent pillreports.org so it was the same pills that were all over the uk at the time. Misubishi, pacha cherries, Rolex crowns, Sharks, Petrol pumps, Shreks, Pink hearts, blue lovehearts are all ones that come to mind. Past 3 years I have had iphone x, tic tac, blue and white skypes, sprites, Pirelli, brazucas all from qdance. Red levi, orange tesla, Zelda tri shields, black mdma, clear mdma, champagne mdma but all those were not qdance, I think they were dutch, but cannot be certain. When I took my first E after the 7 year break I had no drugs whatsoever for 2 years and no E for at least 7 years.

Even if you only take into consideration the bad effects:-

1. No heavy comedown
2. No midweek blues
3. No chronic diarrhea

This, to me, proves it is not the same drug I am taking. No matter what pills I took, I, and everyone I knew, all had those effects with old skool pills, so why would it change for everyone?

The recipe has been changed.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> they are actually cheaper and more profit not more expensive lmao. They make way more profit selling pressed pills than raw grams of mdma. Even decades ago some pressed pills would have up to 200-300 mg mdma. If you truly want to know what presses had in them go message shaun atwood or wildman they ran the biggest ecascty importation ring in america in the 90s.


The legendary, original, legit "Double doves"- with a dove on both sides- early to mid nineties- never lucky to take them myself.  But good OG Doves were typically 
120-130 mg.

I heard from legit sources that the double doors were effectively to proper strong doves in one.  Halves well recommended for most except the brutally hardcore and even those would be be affected on an almost life-changing scale I'll in terms of the power and positive impact of the high, dropping whole Double Doves plus.

Apparently you would always be able to tell tell who was on double doves in the club they would stand out like sore thumbs.

So they would have been well over 200mg, like 250 ish.

Also, the legit, original "snowballs" where are officially 200mg of of the purest MDA.

I took them once in 2000, re-releasrd. Powerful pills, really knocked you elsewhere but beautiful and clean as fuck.  3 and a half I took one night and I was in in an absolute Wonderland I had to work the next day at Tesco's store, somehow, rushing and tripping in ecstasy I even took a magnifying glass to work with me to see what I was doing haha on literally the busiest Saturday of the entire year-

 crammed like sardines all day in the store.

When I finally got home at 7 p.m. at night Saturday day I still felt absolutely incredible really no come down and not feeling rough or mentally daunted in anyway despite the strenuous day in the straightest environment trying to conceal my mind blowingly hammeredness.

I took many a pill I reckon over 200mg, old days. Here and there.

Shit- sorry, I don't think I even have a point as usual haha just sharing that.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> no lol 280 mg of mdma is cheap these days rather than selling a whole gram alone not pressed. MDMA is the cheapest drug to make on this planet its sells at wholesale for way less than weed. Pressing  them into pills makes them. x4 the profit.
> 
> 
> Anyways on a side note MAPS will answer your question in the future with this post https://maps.org/news/bulletin/arti...istry-of-mdma-from-research-to-patient-access


Yeah right, I paid £13 for my two Bowsers, 215--230 mg each.

I hear of £20 MDMA grams in UK often.

And in many other countries including USA prices are even more expensive and I consider that a good price what I got.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> And this is why I find it suspicious. I don't think manufacturers would risk the type of negative publicity likely to result from newbies taking the whole pill and getting hospitalized. Can you imagine someone deciding to "double drop?" If it is regular MDMA that is functioning like MDMA should, then 280 mg in a pill is dangerous. Not everyone is going to know to half the pill.



Is it negative publicity to their target audience though? Lets look at some of the headlines generated from hospitalizations and lab tests related to high dose pills.

Greater Manchester Police issue warning for super-strength Tesla pills
Warning over super-strength Rolls Royce ecstasy pills circulating at Warehouse Project
Warning over mega-dose Ecstasy pills flooding into New Zealand 
Music festivals warn over 'very strong' blue 'Punisher' ecstasy pills that 'can result in death' after two revellers died at Mutiny

"super-strength" "mega-dose" "very strong"
If you are an average consumer used to other recreational drugs (and advertising in general), you generally expect stronger to be better. Headlines that directly mention death might certainly give you pause, but I see the others as positive advertising rather than negative publicity.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Taken at face value, these posts could line up with the hypothesis that early illegal product (90s-00s) had active impurities that improved the experience (Leuckart?), and pre-ban/modern product lacks those impurities.


Just to make one point the pressed pills and MDMA powder and Crystal I was taking between 2000 and 2005 was just as magic and and excellent as what I was taking in the 90s if anything better and cleaner and stronger per pill.

There were lots of disappointing and totally un worth while batches going around in those years but lots of really amazing top quality pills as well right up until I stopped in early 2005.


----------



## indigoaura

@rainey Do you have one pill left over from that old stash that you could set to the side for advanced testing? You are in a very, very unusual situation to clear this all up.

Your story shows that it is NOT loss of magic, and that there is something distinctly different about the products (unless it is all self suggestion and you just believed in the old pills more, which I think is unlikely). 

What we need is detailed side by side analysis of the old pill and one of the "meh" samples.

I totally agree with all of this:


> I used to rub my face up and down the back of the sofa, I used to moan and groan with ecstasy, and it used to come in wave after wave running through your body. I used to have this contorted grin on my face which made me look ridiculous.



The lack of rubbing/touching is a big telltale sign, IMO. Nobody does it on the stuff I have had access to. And, the midweek blues are just GONE. 



> Twice in the past 3 years I have experienced "almost old skool" effects but it only lasted 3/4 minutes and didn't go anywhere.



I would agree with that as well. Sometimes, on the come-up especially, it might feel like it is about to take off, but it just never does. There might be a moment or two where you get a glimmer of something similar, but it is so fleeting. Its like the whole experience is just cock-blocked. 

I WISH I would have stocked up more on the old stuff and stashed it, but I did not have a lot of $ back then, and my supplier quit out of nowhere. If I knew then what I know now I would have stored pills for future use.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

Negi said:


> Is it negative publicity to their target audience though? Lets look at some of the headlines generated from hospitalizations and lab tests related to high dose pills.
> 
> Greater Manchester Police issue warning for super-strength Tesla pills
> Warning over super-strength Rolls Royce ecstasy pills circulating at Warehouse Project
> Warning over mega-dose Ecstasy pills flooding into New Zealand
> Music festivals warn over 'very strong' blue 'Punisher' ecstasy pills that 'can result in death' after two revellers died at Mutiny
> 
> "super-strength" "mega-dose" "very strong"
> If you are an average consumer used to other recreational drugs (and advertising in general), you generally expect stronger to be better. Headlines that directly mention death might certainly give you pause, but I see the others as positive advertising rather than negative publicity.



Tbh I think pretty much any drug user who reads that a particular batch of pills is "super strong" is gonna want some regardless of how the media twists it into "YOU WILL DIE!"

If they're smart they will break the pill up to split doses, but they obviously want the strongest pill for their money.

It's also just become a standard media scare tactic these days especially in the UK. Since most good pills coming to the UK now are those high dose Dutch ones, every single new press can be reported on in the same way, which gives the media a lot of easy free clickbait to take advantage of. That's all it is.

I do think one pill should equal one dose, but I also understand the motivation for higher doses: the big Dutch crews like Q-Dance who press these things are producing or buying MDMA in such enormous bulk that adding 100mg to each pill costs them hardly anything but demands a higher wholesale price and is more in demand from consumers. It's also an arms race between different crews, they wanna one up each other.

Finally it's important to note that the Dutch know how strong the pills are and it is perfectly normal to take them in halves. It's other countries who need to learn to do the same particularly the UK because our culture of boshing large doses of MDMA is frankly just plain stupid.


----------



## Simosom

Most of the MDMA and pills circulating in Europe is so called mehdma. 
Does not matter if they comes from Partyflock or q dance crew, they are all meh Thats what is produced this days. 
I have tried them all from early Ups, Tesla, Ikea, Heineken, Redbulls, Dominos, Mints, Superman... etc. 
From Holland all that coming is meh. 
I believe, Canada or some places US, localy produced, still can be found magic, but for the Europe i lost my hope.


----------



## mars2025

rainey said:


> This, to me, proves it is not the same drug I am taking. No matter what pills I took, I, and everyone I knew, all had those effects with old skool pills, so why would it change for everyone?



Rainey, this is great!  Thank you for the detailed answer!  I just got some more questions if you have time.

Do you ever take MDA (aka sass, sally, sandy)?  If yes, does MDA still work for you?  Does MDA feel the same as it did pre-2010 or does it also feel different (same story as MDMA)?  Can you tell MDA from MDMA when you take it?

Can we get a few more details on the last of your old skool Dove pills that you took recently compared to today's qdance:

Did you notice pupil dilation in each case?
Do you know the approximate mg of MDMA that you take in each case?
Any difference in onset times?  Like 15 minutes, 45 minutes and so on
Any difference in the duration of the roll (peak, plateau).  Qdance roll is worse but how long does it last?  Like 2 hours, 3 hours
Did you still get upset stomach when you took your old skool Dove pills recently?  
In the past you got upset stomach from both pills and crystal or just pills?

That's a lot...  Just ignore whatever doesn't make sense or just ignore all of it


----------



## mars2025

Simosom said:


> Most of the MDMA and pills circulating in Europe is so called mehdma.
> ... I have tried them all from early Ups, Tesla, Ikea, Heineken, Redbulls, Dominos, Mints, Superman... etc.



What's the last time you had magic?  Was it pill or crystal?  US/Canadian or European?  Anything you noted about it that's different from today's Dutch pills (smell, appearance and so on)?

Qdance gives authentic MDMA rolls to many users as WilsonWilson just reported here.  But it does not work for others like Rainey.  
So we need some explanation that fits both of these experiences without rejecting either one


----------



## popsweat

mars2025 said:


> What's the last time you had magic?  Was it pill or crystal?  US/Canadian or European?  Anything you noted about it that's different from today's Dutch pills (smell, appearance and so on)?
> 
> Qdance gives authentic MDMA rolls to many users as WilsonWilson just reported here.  But it does not work for others like Rainey.
> So we need some explanation that fits both of these experiences without rejecting either one



Keep in mind there are fake copies of qdance presses out so could be likely undesired effects are pressed with meh mdma


----------



## ThreePointCircle

The problem I'm having with suggestions of magic (and I have followed through on some of them), is that I'm not seeing someone say:

1) I know exactly what everyone is saying with regards to mehdma
2) I know exactly how this differs from magicdma
3) And this is a consistent source of magic...


----------



## rainey

ANSWERS INLINE: SO "CLICK TO EXPAND"




mars2025 said:


> Rainey, this is great!  Thank you for the detailed answer!  I just got some more questions if you have time.
> 
> Do you ever take MDA (aka sass, sally, sandy)?  If yes, does MDA still work for you?  Does MDA feel the same as it did pre-2010 or does it also feel different (same story as MDMA)?  Can you tell MDA from MDMA when you take it?
> 
> I didn't take mda back then I had no access to it but I bought it once from dm and yes it was very near to the old E but very trippy. There was no empathy but there was more hornyness than I get from recent mdma/pills. I did try a mix as some people have suggested old skool was a mdma.mda mix and although it was good, and although it made the roll nearer to old skool e those same key elements were still missing.
> 
> Can we get a few more details on the last of your old skool Dove pills that you took recently compared to today's qdance:
> 
> Did you notice pupil dilation in each case?
> 
> Its not a thing I ever looked at back then or now so cannot comment.
> 
> Do you know the approximate mg of MDMA that you take in each case?
> 
> The blue lovehearts I believe were only about 70mg and I would estimate about 3 pills worth (I will explain this in a minute)
> 
> 
> Any difference in onset times?  Like 15 minutes, 45 minutes and so on
> 
> Now you ask that YES......old pills were always 40-45min mark and with qdance its more 75-90 mins
> 
> Any difference in the duration of the roll (peak, plateau).  Qdance roll is worse but how long does it last?  Like 2 hours, 3 hours
> 
> Old skool pills I wouldn't contemplate redosing for at least 3.5 hours with modern pills around the 2hr mark
> 
> Did you still get upset stomach when you took your old skool Dove pills recently?
> 
> I cant remember but I do know this.....you again reminded me of this.......with old skool very often I would get the urge to empty my bowels after 25-30 mins after dropping but I never get that with modern pills
> 
> In the past you got upset stomach from both pills and crystal or just pills?
> 
> not that I remember......just to empty bowels but that was only on occasion not all the time.
> 
> That's a lot...  Just ignore whatever doesn't make sense or just ignore all of it




Explanation of "3 pills worth".........I was buying these blue lovehearts from a dealer and when he ran out he asked me if I wanted to buy the powder from the bottom of the bags that the pills came in.....these were bags that held 10,000 pills. I bought approx. 500g of this powder. I remember weighing a blue loveheart and the total weight of the pill was about 150mg so I could tell what I was taking by weighing out in multiples of 150mg and because of tolerance ended up taking approx 450mg at a time (a full cold flu capsule) so when I done my test a year or so ago I just took a capsule full again. 

To the person who asked....yes I do indeed have some of this powder left but who would analyse it?


----------



## rainey

mars2025 said:


> What's the last time you had magic?  Was it pill or crystal?  US/Canadian or European?  Anything you noted about it that's different from today's Dutch pills (smell, appearance and so on)?
> 
> Qdance gives authentic MDMA rolls to many users as WilsonWilson just reported here.  But it does not work for others like Rainey.
> So we need some explanation that fits both of these experiences without rejecting either one




That is why I asked Wilson Wilson if he/she ever had pre 2009 E.......all of these people who say qdance gives them full experience are mainly all younger people who have never had old skool experience so they "think" they are getting the full effect simply because they are strongly drugged. They don't know what old E was actually like and if they did I wonder what they would say then? Probably it would begin with "WHAT_THE_F...."

They have nothing to compare with what they are on!

WW said "no" by the way.....they did use the phrase about "running hand through hair" but was that the same as old skool "running hand through hair" lol

Maybe it is maybe you are correct it's all subjective I suppose but I, and many like me, feel that there are just too many differences which have nothing to do with loss of magic or burnt out receptors etc....remember this......how many of these people who report full scale E effects are people who have a vested interest in keeping the e market going? Dealers, friends of dealers, etc etc


----------



## mars2025

rainey said:


> To the person who asked....yes I do indeed have some of this powder left but who would analyse it?



You can mail it to Energy Control in Spain.  They would only need 50mg.  Indigo was the person who asked.  She has worked with them a lot as she reported here.  She can provide all the details.
Seems like it takes a bit of elbow grease to get the right data out of them

Perhaps send it to them saying you think it's MDxx (don't tell them it's MDMA) and ask for purity and breakdown of exactly which MDxx spectra they see in the GC/MS chart.  But it's pricey, like 100 GBP.
And you'd probably need another analysis of the powder from a qdance pill to do a side by side.  So that's another 100

And thank you for the answers!

Re WilsonWilson's and similar experiences, I'm still hoping we find an explanation that does not rely on our saying that someone is not really rolling when they say they are.  Like accept everyone's experience as real and try to find an explanation that fits all the data


----------



## indigoaura

> I would get the urge to empty my bowels after 25-30 mins after dropping



Yes! The classic "disco dump." This was so much of a thing for me that it became difficult to take E at a concert, because if I wanted to come up as the band started I would also need to rush to the toilet at the same time.



> To the person who asked....yes I do indeed have some of this powder left but who would analyse it?


I have an open communication line with a testing company. I may be able to get you a code to use to associate your product with our project and get access to some more advanced reports.  I don't think you would need to send much, maybe 50 mg. Would you PM me?


----------



## rainey

EC wouldn't do the kind of analysis we need they would simply say it was mdma in the same way they will say qdance is mdma etc etc

It would need a chemist who would be able to break it down into being able to tell what precursers were used on each sample etc 

There are people on BL who can do this but I don't know any of them lol


----------



## rainey

indigoaura said:


> Yes! The classic "disco dump." This was so much of a thing for me that it became difficult to take E at a concert, because if I wanted to come up as the band started I would also need to rush to the toilet at the same time.
> 
> 
> I have an open communication line with Drugs Data (ecstasydata.org). I may be able to get you a code to use to associate your product with our project and get access to some more advanced reports.  I don't think you would need to send much, maybe 50 mg. Would you PM me?



Is "starting a conversation" the new PM? If so I have done so!


----------



## mars2025

@ThreePointCircle
There seems to be decent consensus on what is magic.  There are some variations but OP pretty much summed it up and Indigo provided summaries as well.  There are also academic papers going back to the 80s.  Off the top of my head, I'd say magic is:

euphoria (this is the happiest moment of my life)
body high ( As I'm dancing I feel like I'm 18 again, physically and mentally.  like a child )
emphatic (I love everyone and empathize with them, feel like I'm in their shoes)
endactic (everything is all right in my life and I accept and I'm at peace with whatever isn't),
tactile enhancement (simple finger touch feels better than sex),
music enhancement (omg Tiesto is Mozart  
reduced desire and ability to do mental work (next day)
relaxation of ocd (obsessive compulsive disorder -- you know it when it happens but only if you had it in the first place)

Just of the top of my head

There seems less uniformity on what is meh, except that it's not magic, and it is worse. 
Makes me think of Tolstoy where happy families are all alike but each unhappy one is unhappy in its own way

@popsweat
Yes, many popular presses are faked eventually.  But Simosom and Rainey each report trying so many.  They can't all be fake


----------



## indigoaura

mars2025 said:


> You can mail it to Energy Control in Spain.  They would only need 50mg.  Indigo was the person who asked.  She has worked with them a lot as she reported here.  She can provide all the details.
> Seems like it takes a bit of elbow grease to get the right data out of them
> 
> Perhaps send it to them saying you think it's MDxx (don't tell them it's MDMA) and ask for purity and breakdown of exactly which MDxx spectra they see in the GC/MS chart.  But it's pricey, like 100 GBP.
> And you'd probably need another analysis of the powder from a qdance pill to do a side by side.  So that's another 100
> 
> And thank you for the answers!
> 
> Re WilsonWilson's and similar experiences, I'm still hoping we find an explanation that does not rely on our saying that someone is not really rolling when they say they are.  Like accept everyone's experience as real and try to find an explanation that fits all the data



Energy Control completely botched the last sample I sent. It is 6 MONTHS later and I still have not received the report I paid for. Their analysis was basically shit. I do not recommend. Drugs Data is the company who has been in open communication, they are well informed of our theories, and they are actively looking into it on their end.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

mars2025 said:


> There seems to be decent consensus on what is magic.  There are some variations but OP pretty much summed it up and Indigo provided summaries as well.  There are also academic papers going back to the 80s.  Off the top of my head, I'd say magic is:



Sorry, not explaining myself well (bit drunk lol).  I mean I'm seeing a lot of people say things like - oh yeah - q-dance is the shit, but not in a way that's convincing me they have had the experience of meh vs magic.  In other words, with all due respect, I'm feeling like a lot of the recommendations are of varying levels of intense meh.


----------



## mars2025

indigoaura said:


> Energy Control completely botched the last sample I sent. It is 6 MONTHS later and I still have not received the report I paid for. Their analysis was basically shit. I do not recommend. Drugs Data is the company who has been in open communication, they are well informed of our theories, and they are actively looking into it on their end.



Yes, DD (formerly Ecstasy Data) is the best in the US.  But if you're shipping from EU, is there a risk of US customs seizing your/our precious sample?

Dutch and Swiss labs (saferparty.ch and Jellinek) will do the analysis for a few euros but it's for locals only.  If you're ever in Zurich or Amsterdam you can drop it off. 
UK may have some decent and inexpensive testing too.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

We've got Wedinos but I think they're just as 'if it looks like a drug we'll say 80% mdma' as the others


----------



## indigoaura

@mars2025 Check your messages! :D

Most of the companies will not let you see the full reports, and that is what we need to look at. Not enough for them to just relay the purity, we need to see what else is showing up besides the MDMA, the stuff that is probably being dismissed as noise or as synth byproduct.


----------



## CfZrx

Le Junk said:


> *NOTE:* A handy draft summary (work-in-progress) of some of the key content covered in this thread can be accessed *⫸HERE⫷*
> 
> 
> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!


Hey LJ,
just wanted to add my experience (pun intended). I took Ecstasy in about 1997 and it came on thick paper the guy called "wafers" I think. It was awesome with hallucinations when I would drift off into a "nod" I guess you could calll it while watching a rapper. I saw myself sitting in a field of high grass with floating clocks. Later a bag of weed that i set on the table caught fire from a candle, melting the plastic around the buds. Next day I found the bag in my pocket. It was all a dream,lol. Same high you described overall though, the love for others etc...


----------



## Negi

popsweat said:


> Keep in mind there are fake copies of qdance presses out so could be likely undesired effects are pressed with meh mdma


Has someone managed to fake bilayer pills? It's interesting, I checked ecstasydata and found that for skypes at least, there was a recent 2019 batch that was only ~120-160mg of MDMA: https://www.ecstasydata.org/results.php?start=0&search_field=all&s=skype

I wonder if the difference between meh and magic Qdances noticed in the thread was people getting ~250mg in a pill and ~130mg in a pill. If you are taking halves (recommended for pills of this strength) it would certainly make a difference.

This is why I like powder rather than pills.


----------



## popsweat

Negi said:


> Has someone managed to fake bilayer pills? It's interesting, I checked ecstasydata and found that for skypes at least, there was a recent 2019 batch that was only ~120-160mg of MDMA: https://www.ecstasydata.org/results.php?start=0&search_field=all&s=skype
> 
> I wonder if the difference between meh and magic Qdances noticed in the thread was people getting ~250mg in a pill and ~130mg in a pill. If you are taking halves (recommended for pills of this strength) it would certainly make a difference.
> 
> This is why I like powder rather than pills.



Duo presses have been recently been able to be copied.Thats why you are seeing 2-3 year old stamps in current circulation along with their newer ones too. Q dance have said they are releasing new pills this summer that won’t be able to be copied but no details yet


----------



## indigoaura

> Yes, DD (formerly Ecstasy Data) is the best in the US. But if you're shipping from EU, is there a risk of US customs seizing your/our precious sample?



I suppose so, but I sent mine to International Energy Control in Spain with no issue.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

popsweat said:


> Keep in mind there are fake copies of qdance presses out so could be likely undesired effects are pressed with meh mdma



Yep there are so many fakes of any popular press, Q-Dance is the biggest presser so they're the biggest target for fakes.

This is actually why they started making two tone pills. It's more difficult to fake those without it being obvious.



rainey said:


> That is why I asked Wilson Wilson if he/she ever had pre 2009 E.......all of these people who say qdance gives them full experience are mainly all younger people who have never had old skool experience so they "think" they are getting the full effect simply because they are strongly drugged. They don't know what old E was actually like and if they did I wonder what they would say then? Probably it would begin with "WHAT_THE_F...."



I am curious what exactly it is you think I am missing that I would be getting from this pre-2009 super magic MDMA?

I described one of my good rolls in some detail and was told my experience sounds exactly like the good stuff should. If you disagree, can you explain why? I am honestly curious exactly what it is you believe I am missing.

I have had meh MDMA before, I know it when I take it because it barely lasts a couple hours and feels more like a shitty underwhelming stim than actual MDMA. Even though I could send it to WEDINOS and it would come back as MDMA. So I am willing to believe there are good and bad synths.

What I have a hard time believing is that the only good MDMA existed before 2009 and everything made since is shit and anyone who disagrees has just never tried good MDMA.

Aside from just larking about with mates I also have had some legit life changing rolls. This is the MDMA forum so I can go into some detail if you want. I have autism and I genuinely believe MDMA is a therapeutic experience for me. It allows me to socialise and connect with people. I can experience and express deep feelings I never can normally. I can express love I always feel for my girlfriend but cannot usually show. I've taken half a pill each with her and had amazing times together.

These things to me all feel very magic.

It's not the same as just feeling "strongly drugged" at all. I have done oxy and I know what just being drugged out is like, MDMA is the total opposite of that.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Yes! The classic "disco dump." This was so much of a thing for me that it became difficult to take E at a concert, because if I wanted to come up as the band started I would also need to rush to the toilet at the same time.


Did you need to rush to the toilet only to poop or also to pee ?

I know that talking about such things should be reserved to the kindergarten, but I can't help to notice that if the Meh MDMA is associated with:
- the lack of pupil dilation and tearing
- no urge to poop with a full colon
- no water retention, urinating easily.
- weak increase in heart rate and blood pressure

Then this set of symptoms points to a low Norepinephrine level ( or some norepinephrine Antagonist ).

Please read the Wikipedia article on *Norepinephrine* - it states that:


			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Norepinephrine increases heart rate and blood pressure, triggers the release of glucose from energy stores, increases blood flow to skeletal muscle, reduces blood flow to the gastrointestinal system, and inhibits voiding of the bladder and *gastrointestinal motility*.



The sudden inhibition of Gastrointestinal Motility is known to decrease the intestinal muscle tone and water absorption and consequently can cause such "dumping"..

So what good is this observation?
IMO it might be useful as a *reliable and objective* "in vivo" test for Meh MDMA, because Norepinephrine in the blood is easy to test for (much easier than for Oxytocin).  Also, I can't help but notice, that Norepinephrine is very similar to 3,4-MDMA chemically.

There could be two gotchas with this test, though:
1) The Norepinephrine in the serum (blood) is not the same as Norepinephrine in the brain (but it crosses the BBB easily)
2) A norepinephrine Antagonist might not lower norepinephrine's level in the blood, but it will prevent the binding of Norepinephrine to its receptors.

These confounders can be gotten around with indirect testing for known effects of noradrenaline in the blood, such as: increasing glucose level (while fasting), sodium retention and maybe heart rate/BP.


Note:
_There are some common genetic mutations, which alter the response to noradrenaline.  These mutants are confounders, too, but the majority of the population will have the classical response to noradreanline, e.g. pupil dilation._


----------



## indigoaura

@Wilson Wilson I think the simplest explanation of how you are getting magic from Q-Dance pills and other people are not is that there are fake pills in the market, or even, that Q-Dance sends certain regions different product than other regions. They may even have satellite locations prepping/pressing pills with different methodologies. 

@user666 You make some excellent points, and you have defined something I have been trying to wrap my head around for some time. The Pifl article ( https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426 ) specifically talks about serotonin and norepinephrine uptake, and how some byproducts inhibit one or the other. Read the bottom of page 349 through 350. 

While I don't necessarily think that compounds we are dealing with are exactly the same as the specific impurities listed in the article, I do think something similar is going on. I also think this is why the meh experiences are slightly different from each other - there is variation in the ratio of impurities. At this point, I am pretty convinced that the impurities are flying under the radar of testing companies and just being dismissed as insignificant synthesis byproducts that do not need to be listed in the results.

@draculic acid69 I almost always lost the ability to urinate at the end of a good roll with MDMA, especially if I overdid it a little. It has happened to me sometimes with Meh, but not usually.


----------



## user666

This also means, that if you test you blood with a diabetic *Glucometer* after taking 80-100mg MDMA on an empty stomach (while fasting for 6h) , you should see the glucose level go up for 2h after dosing with the Magic MDMA but not with Meh MDMA.
This data point should behave the same way as pupil dilation.

Also, fasting for 6h and drinking salty water 1h before MDMA administration and only a moderate amount (800cc) of clean water 2-3h after the administration, should give you some additional data points on the sodium clearance from your blood, but that would require having your blood tested at a clinic/lab/hospital unless you spend $350 on a sodium ion meter and draw your own blood.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> The Pifl article ( https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426 ) specifically talks about serotonin and norepinephrine uptake, and how some byproducts inhibit one or the other. Read the bottom of page 349 through 350.


I read it.  This is the mechanism I also suspect.



indigoaura said:


> While I don't necessarily think that compounds we are dealing with are exactly the same


Neither do I, but compound #13 looks like an MDMA dimer with one extra oxygen.  I think someone has already brought up an MDMA dimer in this thread.



indigoaura said:


> At this point, I am pretty convinced that the impurities are flying under the radar of testing companies and just being dismissed as insignificant synthesis byproducts that do not need to be listed in the results.


All the more reason for a preparative column chromatography to be done on a large Meh sample, the MDMA salt discarded and the remaining impurities sent for some serious spectrographic testing.


----------



## mars2025

rainey said:


> Any difference in onset times?  Like 15 minutes, 45 minutes and so on
> 
> Now you ask that YES......old pills were always 40-45min mark and with qdance its more 75-90 mins



OP also noted that magic hits faster (15 min vs 45 min in his case).  What's also interesting is that OP's magic was ultra pure snow-white powder.  But your and Indigo's magic are simply earlier generation street pills.  No reason to believe that old pills were more pure than today's q-dance.  My initial guess was that magic simply correlates with purity but apparently that's not it unless maybe you get MAPS labgrade

Last question: did you ever try bumping qdance crystal (snorting lines of crushed crystal)?  Is the onset time faster or still 75-90 min?  I think bumping would get around variability due to digestion enzymes and all that


----------



## FuckinAcidMan

Wilson Wilson said:


> Yep there are so many fakes of any popular press, Q-Dance is the biggest presser so they're the biggest target for fakes.
> 
> This is actually why they started making two tone pills. It's more difficult to fake those without it being obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> I am curious what exactly it is you think I am missing that I would be getting from this pre-2009 super magic MDMA?
> 
> I described one of my good rolls in some detail and was told my experience sounds exactly like the good stuff should. If you disagree, can you explain why? I am honestly curious exactly what it is you believe I am missing.
> 
> I have had meh MDMA before, I know it when I take it because it barely lasts a couple hours and feels more like a shitty underwhelming stim than actual MDMA. Even though I could send it to WEDINOS and it would come back as MDMA. So I am willing to believe there are good and bad synths.
> 
> What I have a hard time believing is that the only good MDMA existed before 2009 and everything made since is shit and anyone who disagrees has just never tried good MDMA.
> 
> Aside from just larking about with mates I also have had some legit life changing rolls. This is the MDMA forum so I can go into some detail if you want. I have autism and I genuinely believe MDMA is a therapeutic experience for me. It allows me to socialise and connect with people. I can experience and express deep feelings I never can normally. I can express love I always feel for my girlfriend but cannot usually show. I've taken half a pill each with her and had amazing times together.
> 
> These things to me all feel very magic.
> 
> It's not the same as just feeling "strongly drugged" at all. I have done oxy and I know what just being drugged out is like, MDMA is the total opposite of that.


Now I ain't the book-smartest man in the world but I come from the 'deep south' where moonshine is still absolutely a thing and I've noticed some batches just have a level of quality and "shine" (lol) to them, that others do not.

Both in terms of a cleaner bodily feeling as well as the nature of the intoxication itself. Most comercial alcohol completely lacks this magic altogether. Something more alchemical and generally energetically influenced than simply containing ethanol, this moonshine "has it". Really only good moonshine, certain craft/traditional European beers, and really well made wine give me this superior feeling. Bud Light or a bottle of Jack Daniels just makes you feel fucked up, it does not have the transcendent, almost out of body vibes and intense life affirming warmth "REAL" booze does.

Cannabis is the same, certain batches just have a level of love and quality instilled in them by an expert who loves their craft. Bulk cash crop/tumbled corporate weed fuckin sucks comparatively speaking

Same reason some dishes of food just taste better than others: The chef is better, and did it with love. If you are painting by the numbers and in it for the money, your art/food/drugs/ will be lacking. Reality isn't entirely understood, sorry to sound like a hippie but this IS a drug forum.

So I don't really see why some MDMA wouldn't be better than other MDMA even if they're both the same from a molecular standpoint. And I'm sure there's more logical reasons that batch variation would qualitatively change the experience of the compound when ingested.


----------



## user666

FuckinAcidMan said:


> So I don't really see why some MDMA wouldn't be better than other MDMA even if they're both the same from a molecular standpoint.


I do.
The same test result does not mean the same molecule. Especially when the test is a rushed slipshod job without any prior chromatographic separation.
IOW: Just because it cannot be seen with "dirty glasses", doesn't mean its not there.


----------



## user666

Oh!, so quartz chromatography columns are a thing which aid in visualization of UV activated fluorescent silica.  See *here*.


----------



## indigoaura

> This also means, that if you test you blood with a diabetic *Glucometer* after taking 80-100mg MDMA on an empty stomach (while fasting for 6h) , you should see the glucose level go up for 2h after dosing with the Magic MDMA but not with Meh MDMA.
> This data point should behave the same way as pupil dilation.



@user666 I got this man. I will order a freaking Glucometer and start getting this information pronto. 

As for the quartz column...over $1,000 is definitely a pretty big investment for just the column itself. As soon as I have a better idea of what I need to order, I will start ordering stuff, but really hoping to not have to spend that much $ on this endeavor.


----------



## indigoaura

> No reason to believe that old pills were more pure than today's q-dance.



Not quite sure what you mean here when you use the word "purity." Are you talking about the presence of contaminants or are you talking about dosage?

There are actually a lot of reasons to think that old pills and modern pills may be different from each other, due to the significant changes in how they are being produced. I could direct you to many links for pills I personally sent into Ecstasy Data, and I am sure you could show me links to Q-Dance pills, and they would all say "MDMA." 

Magic is not determined by dosage, as many people in this thread will attest. Taking more does not equal more magic, just more meh.


----------



## indigoaura

As for bumping...

Nobody should have to bump MDMA to get magic. I never bumped MDMA previously to get a fast comeup and an awesome vibe. Why should I have to bump it now?


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> As for the quartz column...over $1,000 is definitely a pretty big investment for just the column itself.


Yes, it is but this is only because we are noobs who cannot do column chromatography without visual feedback (i.e. blindly).
Maybe normal lab glass will work if it is illuminated with a very strong UV source that will "punch" through that glass and get to the fluorescent silica anyway.  Does the normal glass block 100% of UV or just 99% of it?
That remaining 1% UV might get converted to visible light by the fluorescence and be seen with a naked eye, after all.  We really need an advice of someone who has hands on experience with this.

Also, I did not shop around - this was the first quartz column, that popped up.  Maybe something cheaper can be improvised out of a quartz tube *like this* or out of a broken bactericidal UV tube.
First, I need to find a cheap source of fluorescent silica powder, to learn the required wavelength of the UV.

*Here* is a relevant discussion.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Yes, it is but this is only because we are noobs who cannot do column chromatography without visual feedback (i.e. blindly).
> Maybe normal lab glass will work if it is illuminated with a very strong UV source that will "punch" through that glass and get to the fluorescent silica anyway.  Does the normal glass block 100% of UV or just 99% of it?
> That remaining 1% UV might get converted to visible light by the fluorescence and be seen with a naked eye, after all.  We really need an advice of someone who has hands on experience with this.
> 
> Also, I did not shop around - this was the first quartz column, that popped up.  Maybe something cheaper can be improvised out of a quartz tube *like this* or out of a broken bactericidal UV fluorescent tube.
> First, I need to find a cheap source of fluorescent silica powder, to learn the required wavelength of the UV.
> 
> *Here* is a relevant discussion.



If a quartz column eliminates the need for a UV light, then I could see the $1,000 investment in the column, but right now, I just have way too many questions about the process. I still don't know what type of solvent to purchase, for example. It is one thing to risk $250 and then find out the process does not work, but spending $1,500 and finding out the process does not work is just a different ballgame.


----------



## mars2025

indigoaura said:


> Not quite sure what you mean here when you use the word "purity." Are you talking about the presence of contaminants or are you talking about dosage?



I was thinking in terms of the purity of the synthesized MDMA crystal before it's pressed into the pill.  So, yes, presence of contaminants not dosage.

My reasoning was that at 99.9% MDMA is MDMA, has to be...  Shulgin mentions six synthesis routes in his MDMA paper including the two in PIKHAL.  He doesn't ever say that some particular route leads to some MDMA "flavour" that produces a superior roll.

So I initially assumed that to get magic you should simply try to get close to 99.9% pure MDMA crystal (OP's original magic powder seems to be like that).

And in the post you quoted I was adjusting that initial assumption of mine since both Rainey and you observed both magic and meh from street pills



indigoaura said:


> Nobody should have to bump MDMA to get magic. I never bumped MDMA previously to get a fast comeup and an awesome vibe. Why should I have to bump it now?



That question was for Rainey whose answers so far have proved very insightful.  I'm glad I didn't miss his/her post and followed up with questions.  It wasn't to suggest that Rainey should or needs to try bumping dutch crystal.  But if Rainey happened to try it already, then his/her experience could provide further insight and data for this thread.  I don't have any pre-formed notion of what Rainey's answer here might be


----------



## indigoaura

@mars2025 I don't think you are necessarily wrong about purity. MDMA that is 99.9% pure would not have any contaminants to compete. If the problem is a contaminant, then that should fix the problem.

As discussed in the article I linked by Pifl, many synthesis impurities are relatively benign. At least, they have no impact on the transporters. Out of all the byproducts they examined in that article, they really only saw two contaminants with a notable effect. Many other articles point out that different synth methods produce different contaminants. So, its not that the old pills were more pure, they just had different synthesis byproducts present. In other words, not all 80% MDMA is created equal.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> If a quartz column eliminates the need for a UV light,


It doesn't. A UV light is still needed if you use a fluorescent silica.  The fluorescence *converts* the UV into a visible light that you can observe with your eyes. The visible light doesn't have a problem penetrating the normal glass, but the UV does. I am guessing that the attenuation is not 100% and some UV still gets through.
It is just that a quartz column is so transparent to UV that it eliminates the need for a strong UV light source to "punch through" and even a weak one e.g. a UV LED, becomes sufficient for illuminating the fluorescent silica in the column.

According to Sekio, the non-colored MDMA salt and other impurities quench the fluorescence, which makes them observable. There are other methods of making them observable, e.g. "staining" with iodine or permanganate (and *many more*) but that can be done only outside of the column.
For visualization of non-colored compounds moving inside the column, the UV fluorescence is the only feasible method, AFAIK.


----------



## indigoaura

Ok...so...hypothetically...

You could run a column with silica and no visual at all if you just constantly separate the results into separate test tubes, right?


----------



## sekio

> According to Sekio, the non-colored MDMA salt and other impurities quench the fluorescence, which makes them observable.


Only in the case of using silica treated with a fluorescent dye. "Regular" silica will leave you scratching your head because it doesn't glow under UV.




> You could run a column with silica and no visual at all if you just constantly separate the results into separate test tubes, right?


Absolutely. This is how people used to do chromatography all the time.


----------



## indigoaura

@sekio So, I could theoretically buy a column, buy silica, and buy a solvent. Then, run the column with narrow fractions, dry those fractions, identify which fractions contain MDMA using reagent testing, and then send all the fractions without MDMA to a lab for testing?


----------



## sekio

Yep. That's the easiest way.


----------



## indigoaura

@sekio I've read hexane works as a solvent, but it seems a bit unsafe for a novice. Do you have any specific solvent recommendations?


----------



## mars2025

indigoaura said:


> @Wilson Wilson I think the simplest explanation of how you are getting magic from Q-Dance pills and other people are not is that there are fake pills in the market, or even, that Q-Dance sends certain regions different product than other regions. They may even have satellite locations prepping/pressing pills with different methodologies.



This explanation doesn't seem to fit...  It would imply that every single one of Rainey's q-dance pills has been fake.  And further that if you (Indigo) and Rainey got Wilson's stash of the OG q-dance pills, then you would find them to be magic.
If you believe this to be the case, then surely finding authentic qdance pills is easier than finding impurities in the GC/MS spectra?

When academics research MDMA, they work with young (20s) male subjects who are MDMA-naive (virgins).  Wilson is reasonably close to such ideal subject (some lifetime MDMA use but less than Rainey), so he gets magic from Q-Dance.  I believe Wilson would also get magic from MAPS labgrade mdma, as well as from Rainey's old skool pills.  This is true for most young people who buy all those millions of Dutch presses.

Now when Ann Shulgin lost the magic, she was the opposite of the above in terms of lifetime use, age and gender. For many such users, the window to a magic experience (call it ++1/2 or better on Shulgin's scale) is reduced.  If you take the same 80% mdma that you've always taken, it'll continue to work in most cases.  But some other 80% batch may not work for you.  If you take a multiyear break, your body also may not be able to get the magic back.  And of course if you have health changes and start/stop taking some other medication.  Basically, for many older users with large lifetime use, getting to a +++ is a narrow window and a delicate balancing act.

That's my understanding at the moment.  May well be wrong


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> @sekio I've read hexane works as a solvent, but it seems a bit unsafe for a novice. Do you have any specific solvent recommendations?


I've been working on getting TLC working.  So far, I've only been successful using this system: DCM/methanol/ammonia 90:9:1

But I'm still playing around with it and haven't found a second spot yet (so, so far no evidence of a contaminant).


----------



## indigoaura

@mars2025 you are basically disregarding all of the anecdotes of young MDMA virgins or those with minimal use histories who have commented in this thread about meh product. You are basically boiling it all down to loss of magic, which has been repeatedly demonstrated to not fit as an explanation to the situations described in the thread.

Not trying to be condescending at all, but how much of the thread have you read? Did you mostly jump in to the end or have you read a lot of the anecdotal reports?

Also, me finding out that I can roll from a Q-dance pill does absolutely nothing to explain why I don't roll from 150 mg of 80% lab tested MDMA, and that is the question I am really interested in answering.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

MDMA HCL crystal can only ever be a maximum 84% pure. theres a huge difference in how potent or clean the roll is with 79% vs 84%


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> MDMA HCL crystal can only ever be a maximum 84% pure. theres a huge difference in how potent or clean the roll is with 79% vs 84%



In order for that 5% to have a significant impact on the roll, there has to be a contaminant present. Otherwise, all you would have to do to have the experience you want is increase the dosage. 

Like, my 80% MDMA that I had tested should have hit like 120 mg with a 150 mg dose.


----------



## sekio

> MDMA HCL crystal can only ever be a maximum 84% pure.



Using MDMA freebase as a standard, sure (the other 16% being hydrochloric acid). But most people use the HCl salt as a standard, ergo the maximum purity should be 100%.



> Do you have any specific solvent recommendations?


Well, obviously all solvents beside water have some risk, but generally speaking what works for TLC seperations will work for columns too.



> Solvent systems included: system A (98.5 parts methanol and 1.5 parts concentrated ammonia), system B (85 parts ethyl acetate, 10 parts methanol and 5 parts concentrated ammonia) and C (75 parts cyclohexane, 15 parts toluene and 10 parts diethylamine (sekio note: triethylamine/ammonia are easier to get))


(ref)



> The spotted plates were developed in a saturated TLC chamber containing methanol:ammonia (100:1.5) (Bussey and Backer 1974; Furnari et al. 1998; Moffat 2004)


(ref)


There is no harm in experimenting and going off the beaten track, I'm sure you can come up with many different solvent systems that will work. Generally my methodology is run a TLC initially with 100% nonpolar solvent, then divide-and-conquer: run 50% polar 50% nonpolar, if the spots move too far, decrease polarity (25% polar/75% nonpolar, if they don't move enough, increase polarity (75% polar/25% nonpolar), repeat the process of running TLCs and adjusting polarity until you get the desired seperation. If you can't get a good resolution after 3 iterations, then switch solvent system (change either polar or nonpolar) and restart from the top.
1% of a base will help analysis of basic compounds like MDMA. Appropriate bases are triethylamine, ammonia, even pyridine if you are a masochist.


----------



## indigoaura

Thanks for your help @sekio. I think I'll watch some Youtube vids on TLC plates and try to wrap my head around that as well.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ - https://www.erowid.org/columns/crew/2017/01/oddity-testing-service-defines-pure-mdma-as-84-pure/


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> You could run a column with silica and no visual at all if you just constantly separate the results into separate test tubes, right?


Yes if you knew when to start and stop collecting and if your solvent system is chosen properly to achieve a good separation.



indigoaura said:


> I've read hexane works as a solvent, but it seems a bit unsafe for a novice.


Why?  You inhale it every time you fill up the tank in your car.
It has low acute toxicity.
Yes, it is very flammable, but so are many other solvents.



indigoaura said:


> Do you have any specific solvent recommendations?


I've heard good things about Acetonitrile.


----------



## indigoaura

ThreePointCircle said:


> I've been working on getting TLC working.  So far, I've only been successful using this system: DCM/methanol/ammonia 90:9:1
> 
> But I'm still playing around with it and haven't found a second spot yet (so, so far no evidence of a contaminant).



Thanks! Keep me in the loop if you find a combo that shows separation and multiple spots.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, @TripSitterNZ , International Energy Control confirmed to me that the maximum purity they report is 100%. That means that my sample that tested as 80% MDMA is out of a total possible purity of 100%, not 84%.


----------



## indigoaura

From: https://www.erowid.org/columns/crew/2017/01/oddity-testing-service-defines-pure-mdma-as-84-pure/



> If SaferParty received a tablet sample that contained 100mg of MDMA HCl and 200mg of lactose and inactive binders, what would the reported amount of MDMA be in that tablet? 100mg ? or would that qualify under your reporting rules as 84mg of MDMA (freebase)?”
> Our reported content would be 100mg MDMA*HCl.



I feel like this confirms what we already know. These companies just do not report things that they consider to be binders or inactive.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Did you need to rush to the toilet only to poop or also to pee ?
> 
> I know that talking about such things should be reserved to the kindergarten, but I can't help to notice that if the Meh MDMA is associated with:
> - the lack of pupil dilation and tearing
> - no urge to poop with a full colon
> - no water retention, urinating easily.
> - weak increase in heart rate and blood pressure
> 
> Then this set of symptoms points to a low Norepinephrine level ( or some norepinephrine Antagonist ).
> 
> Please read the Wikipedia article on *Norepinephrine* - it states that:
> 
> 
> The sudden inhibition of Gastrointestinal Motility is known to decrease the intestinal muscle tone and water absorption and consequently can cause such "dumping"..
> 
> So what good is this observation?
> IMO it might be useful as a *reliable and objective* "in vivo" test for Meh MDMA, because Norepinephrine in the blood is easy to test for (much easier than for Oxytocin).  Also, I can't help but notice, that Norepinephrine is very similar to 3,4-MDMA chemically.
> 
> There could be two gotchas with this test, though:
> 1) The Norepinephrine in the serum (blood) is not the same as Norepinephrine in the brain (but it crosses the BBB easily)
> 2) A norepinephrine Antagonist might not lower norepinephrine's level in the blood, but it will prevent the binding of Norepinephrine to its receptors.
> 
> These confounders can be gotten around with indirect testing for known effects of noradrenaline in the blood, such as: increasing glucose level (while fasting), sodium retention and maybe heart rate/BP.
> 
> 
> Note:
> _There are some common genetic mutations, which alter the response to noradrenaline.  These mutants are confounders, too, but the majority of the population will have the classical response to noradreanline, e.g. pupil dilation._



This ability to pee normally rules out meh as being mbdb as was suggested earlier on. on mbdb pissing becomes quite difficult and while u feel the need to piss you can't get out more than a few drops before stopping.i don't get it with mdma just mbdb.it was a common side effect experienced by many ppl.its sort of a signature of the substance.


----------



## sekio

> It has low acute toxicity.



It's certainly much more toxic than pentane/heptane/cyclohexane: hexane does metabolize eventually to the neurotoxin hexane-2,5-dione. So it's considered a carcinogen with chronic exposure.

I worked with it in the lab for ~6 years and don't have tumors yet though.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @sekio I've read hexane works as a solvent, but it seems a bit unsafe for a novice. Do you have any specific solvent recommendations?


Hexane is perfectly safe for a novice to use if u r not a complete idiot and it sounds like u r not.


----------



## indigoaura

Opinions please...

I'm quarantined in my house and have literally been stuck here since early March. Not going to follow the 3 month rule right now. Whatever. There is some extreme boredom happening here. 

So, next time I roll (prob in another 2 weeks or so), I am going to change a variable. Which variable should I change?

Option a) Take 2CB or LSD first. 

Option b) Dissolve the MehDMA in a liquid to rule out a crystalline poly-morph issue. 

Option c) Boof the MehDMA


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Also, @TripSitterNZ , International Energy Control confirmed to me that the maximum purity they report is 100%. That means that my sample that tested as 80% MDMA is out of a total possible purity of 100%, not 84%.


the only mdma that will test close to 100% is totally pharma grade mdma hydrate crystals not the mdma hcl. The only people will acesses to 99% + pure mdma is MAPS. Read their new article they posted they are going to answer your questions you have with their  chemists.


----------



## draculic acid69

mars2025 said:


> This explanation doesn't seem to fit...  It would imply that every single one of Rainey's q-dance pills has been fake.  And further that if you (Indigo) and Rainey got Wilson's stash of the OG q-dance pills, then you would find them to be magic.
> If you believe this to be the case, then surely finding authentic qdance pills is easier than finding impurities in the GC/MS spectra?
> 
> When academics research MDMA, they work with young (20s) male subjects who are MDMA-naive (virgins).  Wilson is reasonably close to such ideal subject (some lifetime MDMA use but less than Rainey), so he gets magic from Q-Dance.  I believe Wilson would also get magic from MAPS labgrade mdma, as well as from Rainey's old skool pills.  This is true for most young people who buy all those millions of Dutch presses.
> 
> Now when Ann Shulgin lost the magic, she was the opposite of the above in terms of lifetime use, age and gender. For many such users, the window to a magic experience (call it ++1/2 or better on Shulgin's scale) is reduced.  If you take the same 80% mdma that you've always taken, it'll continue to work in most cases.  But some other 80% batch may not work for you.  If you take a multiyear break, your body also may not be able to get the magic back.  And of course if you have health changes and start/stop taking some other medication.  Basically, for many older users with large lifetime use, getting to a +++ is a narrow window and a delicate balancing act.
> 
> That's my understanding at the moment.  May well be wrong


I had different batches every week to few weeks and one batch to the next
was always magic.no different batch didn't work bcoz I'm used to the other batch bullshit ever happened.youve made a really stupid point


----------



## indigoaura

Aw...thanks @draculic acid69 

I try to avoid idiocy when possible.


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> the only mdma that will test close to 100% is totally pharma grade mdma hydrate crystals not the mdma hcl. The only people will acesses to 99% + pure mdma is MAPS. Read their new article they posted they are going to answer your questions you have with their  chemists.



Did you even read the article that I linked to you? It explains the whole debate. It all depends on what testing methodology the lab is using. https://www.erowid.org/columns/crew/2017/01/oddity-testing-service-defines-pure-mdma-as-84-pure/


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Did you even read the article that I linked to you? It explains the whole debate. It all depends on what testing methodology the lab is using. https://www.erowid.org/columns/crew/2017/01/oddity-testing-service-defines-pure-mdma-as-84-pure/


yes but energy control are run by idiots tbh. When my plugs bring in kgs of mdma from holland it is listed as 84% as tested in the netherlands by official testing sites instead of the Spanish. 84% is what is the highest purity been sold technically the other 16% is HCL and various impurities.


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> yes but energy control are run by idiots tbh. When my plugs bring in kgs of mdma from holland it is listed as 84% as tested in the netherlands by official testing sites instead of the Spanish. 84% is what is the highest purity been sold technically the other 16% is HCL and various impurities.



Energy Control are not the only company who report up to 100% purity. Many of the testing companies reports 100% purity max, rather than 84% purity max.


----------



## sekio

> The only people will acesses to 99% + pure mdma is MAPS.


I call BS. I've seen some very pure MDMA on GC...


----------



## TripSitterNZ

sekio said:


> I call BS. I've seen some very pure MDMA on GC...


pure MDMA vs acutal pharma grade proper crystal polomorph mdma exclusive for human trials for PSTD are way different. Shit i would to get my hands on the MAPS mdma since it would be super amazing but the process is expensive. Does anybody here acutallly keep up to date on the articles maps posts?


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> pure MDMA vs acutal pharma grade proper crystal polomorph mdma exclusive for human trials for PSTD are way different. Shit i would to get my hands on the MAPS mdma since it would be super amazing but the process is expensive. Does anybody here acutallly keep up to date on the articles maps posts?



Yes, I posted the article you are referencing several pages back. I get their newsletters and read their updates. 

My impression from reading that article was not that they were seeking to make a new crystalline polymorph, but that they had discovered previously unknown crystalline polymorphs during their process of producing MDMA. 



> Another significant lesson from the last 12 months of API development work was the discovery of two new polymorphic forms of MDMA, never seen previously in the literature. A polymorph refers to a well-defined crystalline structure, where the molecules are attached to each other in a repeatable pattern. A good example of this is C6 (carbon). Carbon will bond to itself six times to form the commonly known “benzene ring” molecule. However, the way these C6 molecules bond to each other can take different crystalline or polymorphic forms, such as diamond vs graphite. Both polymorphs are the same molecule—but one, diamond, is the hardest substance known and the other, graphite, one of the softest. This is an extreme example, but clearly shows why it is so important to understand the chemistry of any molecule that is being developed for human use.
> 
> Thankfully, in the case of MDMA, the polymorphism is not as extreme as carbon. But previously in the literature, based on the limited investigations, there was thought to be only one polymorph form of MDMA (“The ecstasy and the agony; compression studies of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine [MDMA]”, Acta Crystallographica Section B Structural Science, Crystal Engineering and Materials, 2015).
> 
> This MDMA polymorph form is the same that has been used in all MAPS sponsored studies to date, now known as “Form 1,” previously characterized through X-ray powder diffraction (XRPD). It is by far the most stable of the forms, and to force the MDMA molecules into the new polymorphs (Form 2 and Form 3) it requires manipulation using different solvents and crystallization techniques. Both Form 2 and Form 3 are metastable to Form 1, meaning that they easily revert to Form 1. However, now that their presence is known, identification of these forms has been added to the release and stability specifications via a method sensitive enough to identify them (even in small quantities relative to Form 1).



A few of my other favorite quotes:



> ...the chemistry of MDMA, a well-known molecule first developed in 1912 and patented by Merck in 1914, is not exact, not yet fully known, and still requires detailed, stringent analyses and controls.





> The chemistry of MDMA is not a given, and requires expert development to get to the commercial standard we need to ensure patient access and safety at scale. However, it should not be expected that we will stop learning about the chemistry of this compound; changes in manufacturing process, scale, and product formulation can bring with them new challenges and lessons.





> However, even with this appropriately thorough approach from small-scale to large-scale development, the design space that was defined for Stage 2 of the reaction was shown to not completely predict the outcome.


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> Opinions please...
> 
> I'm quarantined in my house and have literally been stuck here since early March. Not going to follow the 3 month rule right now. Whatever. There is some extreme boredom happening here.
> 
> So, next time I roll (prob in another 2 weeks or so), I am going to change a variable. Which variable should I change?
> 
> Option a) Take 2CB or LSD first.
> 
> Option b) Dissolve the MehDMA in a liquid to rule out a crystalline poly-morph issue.
> 
> Option c) Boof the MehDMA



I don't know what option (b) would do, and option (c) would only give you a faster more intense come up.
I would choose do LSD first for a (almost) guaranteed good time.
I like to drop the tab about 3 hours before the MDMA.

My favorite flippers in best to less-best:
1. LSD
2. Shrooms (or 4-ACO-DMT)
3. 4-HO-MET or 4-HO-MiPT
4. I haven't experienced 2-CB...only 2-CE, 2-CD, 2CC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Opinions please...
> 
> I'm quarantined in my house and have literally been stuck here since early March. Not going to follow the 3 month rule right now. Whatever. There is some extreme boredom happening here.
> 
> So, next time I roll (prob in another 2 weeks or so), I am going to change a variable. Which variable should I change?
> 
> Option a) Take 2CB or LSD first.
> 
> Option b) Dissolve the MehDMA in a liquid to rule out a crystalline poly-morph issue.
> 
> Option c) Boof the MehDMA


Take LSD first wait 4 hours then take the mdma. Then another day you could take 2cb and mdma together at once or the 2cb a few hours in?


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> Take LSD first wait 4 hours then take the mdma. Then another day you could take 2cb and mdma together at once or the 2cb a few hours in?



Taking 2CB after MehDMA is horrible. I won't ever do that again. When I took the 2CB before the MDMA, it was better.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Taking 2CB after MehDMA is horrible. I won't ever do that again. When I took the 2CB before the MDMA, it was better.


if thats the case probably better just do LSD and 2cb together and not touch the meh stuff.


----------



## sekio

MAPS said:
			
		

> the synthetic pathway used for the MAPS synthesis of MDMA does not include safrole or related starting materials. Our key starting material is 5-bromo-1,3-benzodioxole, and its precursor, 1,2-methylenedioxybenzene, is likely synthesized in one step from catecho


(ref)

To my knowledge, that route would indeed use safrole, the obvious chemistry is converting the aryl bromide to a Grignard and coupling with allyl bromide or such, yielding safrole, this is known in the literature Maybe they are producing piperonal via the Bouveault synthesis and going the nitroethane/MDP2P/reductive amination route?

Either way the chemistry is all known by now, I would be really suprised if there was a hitherto unknown side product that everyone missed.



> pure MDMA vs acutal pharma grade proper crystal polomorph mdma exclusive for human trials for PSTD are way different.



I'm a firm believer that MDMA is MDMA no matter how it's made. If it's pure on GC that's enough to convince me.

I usually administer MDMA in solution too, so polymorphs don't factor into the equation.


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> Option b) Dissolve the MehDMA in a liquid to rule out a crystalline poly-morph issue.





sekio said:


> I usually administer MDMA in solution too, so polymorphs don't factor into the equation.



Can someone please explain this to me? Are you saying ingesting MDMA in solution can change the effect? 
Would you just dissolve it in water?
Thanks!


----------



## indigoaura

Apparently MAPS plans to release their full chemical process, so it will be interesting to read that full report when it comes out. 

@sekio , you mentioned that the chemistry is all known, but MAPS does not seem to think so as they specifically commented, "...the chemistry of MDMA, a well-known molecule first developed in 1912 and patented by Merck in 1914, *is not exact, not yet fully known,* and still requires detailed, stringent analyses and controls" (MAPS).

@fasterfb I don't fully understand the crystalline poly-morph issue, but my limited understanding is that MDMA crystals can form in different configurations, and those configurations may have an impact on the drug's effects. I have been told by others in this thread that a simple solution is to just dissolve it and eliminate the crystals entirely. Gotta admit, that was a bit unclear to me too. Here is an article I found: https://symbiosisonlinepublishing.c...ciences/pharmacy-pharmaceuticalsciences11.php


----------



## sekio

Crystal polymorphs will only change the pharmacokinetics, not the actual effects of the drug. That is, some polymorphs may dissolve slower or faster than others. 
However in solution, polymorphs are not relevant at all. MDMA in solution is... MDMA.



> is not exact, not yet fully known,


Maybe the super specifics aren't common knowledge, but it's not like some MDMA syntheses suddenly end up producing pink elephants coming out the flask, or totally different drugs. People have been studying all the reactions used in MDMA synthesis as well (peracid oxidation of alkenes, reductive amination, Nef reaction, nitroaldol/Henry reaction, etc) for many years. It's not untread territory. College students have made good MDMA before in their dorm room.


----------



## fasterfb

@indigoaura 

Thanks for the link. I have a batch that is not as good as my other batch. It's not exactly mehmdma as described in this thread, but definitely not as good as the other batch
I was just wondering if there was a way to make it better.
Maybe I'll try purifying it and leave out the recrystallization step. Do you have any experience with cleaning?


----------



## fasterfb

sekio said:


> College students have made good MDMA before in their dorm room.



Cool video. Thanks for the link.


----------



## sekio

It's a data point to note that they were following the clasical safrole -> isosafrole -> MDP2P -> MDMA route. Watching the video, it's obvious they are not on MehDMA!


----------



## indigoaura

fasterfb said:


> @indigoaura
> 
> Thanks for the link. I have a batch that is not as good as my other batch. It's not exactly mehmdma as described in this thread, but definitely not as good as the other batch
> I was just wondering if there was a way to make it better.
> Maybe I'll try purifying it and leave out the recrystallization step. Do you have any experience with cleaning?



I understand the basic premise of an acetone wash followed by re-crystalization, but I have not done it. Considering giving it a try as well.

@sekio When you say "in solution," what solution are you referring to?


----------



## sekio

Any solution. By definition, a crystal polymorph means the material is a solid. Water is what I'd use, for obvious reasons.

Dissolving your MDMA into water beforehand will eliminate dissolution as a factor and speed absorbtion. There is no delay as the gelatin capsule erodes and the MDMA is exposed to gastric fluids (or the pill disintegrates and MDMA is absorbed).


----------



## indigoaura

sekio said:


> It's a data point to note that they were following the clasical safrole -> isosafrole -> MDP2P -> MDMA route. Watching the video, it's obvious they are not on MehDMA!



Man, all those ravers at the beginning are so clearly rolling! That is what it looks like!


----------



## indigoaura

Good grief...

I don't want to go on about it too much, but these people in the video...

They are blowing on each other, touching each other, waving lights around, barely sitting up. They have the Vicks jars out. People acted like that because everything FELT good. Lights looked good. This is exactly what house parties used to be like. 

@sekio , I know you are a bit skeptical of this whole thread, but doesn't it seem odd to you that whole groups of people would take "MDMA" and not act like this at all?


----------



## sekio

It's unusual, but I could see it happening. MDMA is a euphoriant and empathogen, but there's a limit to it. If you got a bunch of people who were distrustful of each other and had a generally stressful environment, no cool rave toys/music, potentially even pushing the dose too high, it would not be unusual to me to have a much less magical and overall more negative experience than if everyone had the 90's raver attitude of PLUR, had nothing to worry about, had all the party fixings, and dosed appropriately instead.

It's curious to me that the rise of MehDMA seems to align with the increasing general Bad Vibes in society these days. Post-9/11 things just aren't the same. People have so much to worry about these days, even if they don't admit it to themselves. Society is nothing like 1969.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

While society is increasingly disconnected from each other this is usually not the case in full blown mdma raves like hard style raves like defqon or psytrance parties where everybody usually gets together and has been quite welcoming but of course you still get those undesirable types who lurk around the scene and are very fake/assholes. 

Even in old 90's rave videos you can see the various in the experiences people are having but i feel like those times people were way less judging of each other and were all there for one thing to rave have fun and party hard to the music. New generation of teens have just been glued to snapchat instagram and facebook and have totally degraded from previous generations into some very brainwashed into just wanting to follow stupid youtubers like jake/logan paul. 

hell the younger generation will instead video somebody having a bad time at a festival instead of helping them just for the views and followers. 

Look at the power hours of defqon 1 and you can see full blown "magic" mdma in effect in the crowd.

At darkpsy raves you see people going really spiritual and crazy on the candyflips having full blown ego deaths on the dance floor. 

People are on all sorts of drugs at festivals these days including more and more meth. So i think its hard to say what people are doing if we didn't ask exactly what drugs they took.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

sekio said:


> Any solution. By definition, a crystal polymorph means the material is a solid. Water is what I'd use, for obvious reasons.
> 
> Dissolving your MDMA into water beforehand will eliminate dissolution as a factor and speed absorbtion. There is no delay as the gelatin capsule erodes and the MDMA is exposed to gastric fluids (or the pill disintegrates and MDMA is absorbed).



I always used to bomb crystal in a rizla paper. No doubt the rizla breaks completely apart before it even reaches your stomach. But I noticed that on an empty stomach, the good shit would start to kick in within 10 - 15 minutes, whereas the meh would take significantly longer at around 30 - 45 minutes. I found the onset time to be a pretty reliable indicator of quality - if it came on fast, I was in for a good time.

However, I've recently found that if the meh is dissolved in water first, the onset time matches the good stuff even if it doesn't make the quality any better. 

So you're saying that dissolution is determined by the structure of the crystal, and the structure of the crystal is determined by the purity and type of salt?


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> Option a) Take 2CB or LSD first.
> 
> Option b) Dissolve the MehDMA in a liquid to rule out a crystalline poly-morph issue.
> 
> Option c) Boof the MehDMA



I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve but every time I've plugged/boofed MehDMA it's been after dissolving it in water for use with a syringe, and that has changed nothing for me. Dosing MehDMA after dosing a psychedelic only ruins the experience for me.

If you're looking for a good time, I wouldn't use your Meh at all.


----------



## user666

psy997 said:


> If you're looking for a good time, I wouldn't use your Meh at all.


Good advice!
If I were you I'd take Meh only to suffer for science and do bunch of relevant blood tests.


----------



## indigoaura

> I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve



I suppose I am mostly trying to add data to confirm that meh remains meh even when variables are altered. 

@user666 I will get you the glucometer data on this coming roll.

Received my Lieberman test. Stay tuned for that data.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I will get you the glucometer data on this coming roll.


It is not for me - it is for the human race.

Anyway, for this test to be valid, first you need to establish you glucose curve as a baseline.
This means fasting, testing, drinking water with glucose and lemon juice*, testing 3x at certain times after ingesting the glucose.
The testing with MDMA should be done the next day or later, after fasting for 6h.

* You can delete the lemon juice if you want to suffer more. Glucose solution is yucky!


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> The skittles with NL stamps i believe are also q-dance are highly rated here as a import 270 mg mdma with a half line break line. The fact is that everybody that sells pressies usually warns people to only take half if they not use to high dose pressed pills.
> 
> But for experinced users i have double dropped 300 mg mdma pills and i have seen my friend eat 3 of them once while on mushrooms and still live to the tell  the tale.
> 
> In very heavy mdma users i use to see my friend eat half a gram + every friday night.
> 
> 
> Hell i believe in ireland everybody does 0.5 g bombs. People die from mdma if they are usually too young and have consumed 1 gram + in a single dose but i could care less if somebody wins themselves the darwin award in the age of the internet by forgoing all harm reduction its on the person who died not the pill makers.


Totally with you on this, as I have openly extolled here many times from my own experience.

It has bothered me that there is this misconception, that 250mg above is an extortionate and dangerous amount per se, it really depends on the user.

Of course I fully respect and support harm reduction and sensible dosing.

But I took these amounts of legit, old skool magic many times, and as long as it was pure clean MDMA, I honestly never felt in any sort of danger or health risk or even uncomfortable.

Like a 1/3 gram of banging MDMA one time. Sublime comeup. Totalky comfortable, just purely at one with all, my higher self.

And damn so happy haha!

A friend I visited with some weed, suddenly got nervous about his returning step father seeing me me and he said in exact words and total awe and amazement- "your eyes look MAD!" With a big emphasis on mad.

I was 100% okay and safe, only issue occured when I tried to drink some beer, it turned my tummy and I laid down concentrating to try and stop the vomit reflex so I didn't lose any MDMA.  

I did vomit a little, felt fine the entire time though.

No more alcohol, I finished the gram overnight and had an amazing following day feeling great.

I took 0.5 grams MDMA as a dose, numerous times.
And we (certainly I) took 3 good pills together, many times, 100-150mg.

I honestly never once felt in physical danger. Just rushing incredibly.

So it really depends on the individual. I just think it is a misconception that 250mg or above of is a dangerous dose fullstop.


----------



## user666

AutoTripper said:


> It has bothered me that there is this misconception, that 250mg above is an extortionate and dangerous amount per se, it really depends on the user.
> 
> I took 0.5 grams MDMA as a dose, numerous times.


For decades 1.5mg/kg was enough to achieve an optimum effect, so there is something wrong with the drug or with you.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> For decades 1.5mg/kg was enough to achieve an optimum effect, so there is something wrong with the drug or with you.


no lol. the reason why people do high dose mdma is a for what the experince can become something which half the fake neo fluffy kids wouldn't understand. Half a gram of mdma is one crazy trip in itself and good for becoming one with the universe.


----------



## AutoTripper

user666 said:


> For decades 1.5mg/kg was enough to achieve an optimum effect, so there is something wrong with the drug or with you.


Trust me the drugs were good as good. All pre-2005. I was just a serious psychonaut.  I am only saying that physiologically, 300-500 mg MDMA dosed at once, can be very safe for those who can tolerate it well.


----------



## mars2025

My previous post was misinterpreted as being the loss of magic argument.  But it is not.  Let me elaborate.  First, let's recap the two opposing views expressed on this thread:

Old Skool Argument, mehDMA:

oldskool1: These new pills don't work for me.  Must be something wrong with them.  Let me go find some more people for whom these pills don't work, so I can prove it's the pills fault which means I haven't lost the magic.

oldskool2: In fact, it's probably due to the new impurities.  Let me go study the impurities to prove that today's pills are meh

Q: But so many people say qdance and checkpoint pills work great for them?

oldskool1:  Let's ignore those people and their data points

oldskool2:  In my expert opinion, those people are not really rolling, not really getting the magic MDMA experience.  If only they could try the real MDMA of old, they would know the difference.  I know what rolling looks like and they don't have it.  Young people today just don't know any better.

oldskool3: Ok, maybe a small number of them have personally convinced me that they get the magic.  They must be getting some authentic qdance pills.  But the vast majority of Dutch pills are crappy fakes; or the qdance pressers are knowingly putting out 2nd class meh product under their name in some regions and countries.

VERDICT: Confirmation bias.  Conspiracy theory.  Observation and interviewing errors.  Faulty memory.  Sour grapes and gate-keeping.  Probably FALSE

*****
New Skool Argument, Loss of Magic

oldskool1: These new pills don't work for me.

newskool1: Loss of magic due to lifetime use, age and maybe health.  Your serotonin receptors just don't really react to MDMA anymore.  Happens to some people but not everyone.  Too bad it had to be u ...

oldskool1: Ah, but my old skool stash still gives me magic!!!

newskool1: You're just imagining it.  The sight, smell and taste of your old stash brings up memories of all your past rolls.  Then your mind tricks you into mistaking those memories for an actual roll.

newskool2: Or maybe the memories actually trigger your serotonin receptions like in a psychosomatic effect.

newskool3: In a blind study you would not be able to distinguish your old stash of magic from qdance pills.  It'd all be meh to you.

Old user CANNOT IDENTIFY magicDMA in a BLIND STUDY: this the the signature experimental prediction of the loss of magic theory and a key challenge to really disprove it.

Verdict: Too many reports to be swept away under placebo effect.  Unsatisfactory.

***
***
Alternate theory:
There are bad chemists and bad batches do happen, but in general Dutch (and other) chemists haven't forgotten how to make MDMA after 40 years of doing it.  Today's MDMA is just fine.  But batches of good MDMA still differ in terms of purity levels and the types of impurities.  Some users are more sensitive to these impurities.  This sensitivity correlates with history of use.  So an MDMA-naive user can get a magic experience from a wide range of material.  Of course better material would still work better. 

But many old users are much more picky.   A lot of pretty average and adequate MDMA doesn't work for them, while their own old stash appears to work most consistently of all.

Verdict: let the rocks fly!

Part 2 of 2: But what about new MDMA-naive users who take this new MDMA and get no effects or don't get the right effects?  [ to be continued... ]


----------



## Negi

mars2025 said:


> There are bad chemists and bad batches do happen, but in general Dutch (and other) chemists haven't forgotten how to make MDMA after 40 years of doing it. Today's MDMA is just fine. But batches of good MDMA still differ in terms of purity levels and the types of impurities. Some users are more sensitive to these impurities.



You forgot to mention that this theory proposes that the impurities are totally undetectable to all currently deployed testing methods.


----------



## indigoaura

@mars2025 That was a pretty entertaining read. Looking forward to part 2.

For me personally, this all did not start out as "This new stuff doesn't work, must be something wrong with it." I actually started out more like, "MDMA doesn't work for me anymore, I guess I may have lost the magic." It was only after people came to me repeatedly with similar commentary and comments, and after I saw new users not reacting typically that I started to seriously wonder what was going on and found this thread.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> You forgot to mention that this theory proposes that the impurities are totally undetectable to all currently deployed testing methods.



Negi, you know good and well that these pill reports that show only MDMA in a 500 mg pill are ignoring a ton of binders, fillers, and other ingredients. We also know from published research that synth byproducts are found in almost ALL apprehended street MDMA. That is how law enforcement tracks producers/importers/synth methods. So, obviously, testing companies are leaving information out. It may not be that they CAN'T detect it, just that they do not deem it significant enough to report. 

We have published research showing that street MDMA contains synth byproducts that are different depending on synth method.
We have published research showing that synth byproducts can block the effects of MDMA. 
It is not a huge stretch to hypothesize that this could be the core of the issue. 

Once the culprit is identified, it would be a minor adjustment for testing companies to start reporting its presence in submitted samples.


----------



## indigoaura

@mars2025 I can see how perhaps some people are not sensitive to these byproducts, or their livers handle them in a different way due to genetic factors or whatnot, and so maybe some people are capable of feeling magic from MehDMA. This is not something I have seen personally, yet. So far, the responses I have seen to batches of MDMA have been consistent from person to person. Although I recall @Hilopsilo seeing a group respond differently to the same batch. That could be due to an inconsistent distribution of chemicals in the end product though.


----------



## thegreenhand

Sorry if this has been done already, but has someone done a double blind experiment at home to see if mehDMA and MDMA can be distinguished? Just asking because the recent posts have kinda talked about it


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> So, obviously, testing companies are leaving information out. It may not be that they CAN'T detect it, just that they do not deem it significant enough to report.



Pretty much every testing service that publishes results will include synthesis byproducts when they appear.

Rave-it Safe








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8325 - Plata o Plomo, 8325
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				





> At least two synthesis impurities present, approx. 0.6 mg per tablet.



SaferParty.ch








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8314 - Skype, 8314
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				





> At least three synthesis impurities present, approx. 15.3 mg per tablet.



DrugsData








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #7989 - 1UP, 7989
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				





> MDA 2-aldoxime analog aka synthesis by-product



Of the testing services that publish the most results on DrugsData.org only Checkit seems to not list synthesis byproducts if they do appear (someone should shoot them an email to confirm this).

Edit: DrugsData in particular is more than willing to say when a sample contains an unidentified chemical, see https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8226


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Negi, you know good and well that these pill reports that show only MDMA in a 500 mg pill are ignoring a ton of binders, fillers, and other ingredients. We also know from published research that synth byproducts are found in almost ALL apprehended street MDMA. That is how law enforcement tracks producers/importers/synth methods. So, obviously, testing companies are leaving information out. It may not be that they CAN'T detect it, just that they do not deem it significant enough to report.
> 
> We have published research showing that street MDMA contains synth byproducts that are different depending on synth method.
> We have published research showing that synth byproducts can block the effects of MDMA.
> It is not a huge stretch to hypothesize that this could be the core of the issue.
> 
> Once the culprit is identified, it would be a minor adjustment for testing companies to start reporting its presence in submitted samples.


I think the rule of hand is that usually the binder and mdma are pressed together in equal amounts usually its a calcium binder so a 240 mg mdma pill will also have 240 mg calcium binder leading to 480 mg total weight but some pressers vary how much total % of the weight is binder.


----------



## indigoaura

> Each sample of synthetic drug has its own, characteristic composition of impurities dependent on the way of its production and preparation for distribution. This enables comparative analysis of the drugs seizures.



Link: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2004.08.003

So, when I send in a sample of crystal, and it is 80% out of 100% total possible purity, what is the other 20% of the sample? I am not provided with any information on the other 20% of the sample, all I know is that 20% is NOT MDMA. @Hilopsilo had a similar result with his meh sample, but his sample with typical results was a much higher purity. 

@Negi, maybe you misunderstand what I am trying to convey here. I don't doubt that companies report the impurities when they deem them significant enough to report, and when they show up with their analysis. One of the meh samples I sent to Drugs Data had a specific impurity listed in the result. 

But, I don't think those impurities are being reported for every sample, such as these situations where a sample is 80% MDMA and 20% ???.


----------



## indigoaura

I also want to point out that in that article they are not running GCMS on the MDMA. They extract the contaminants first and then run GCMS on the contaminants. 

This is interesting...



> We found that different variants of reductive amination might be also discriminated. For example we identified marker of cyanoborohydride reduction (NaBH3CN), 2- (dimethylamino)-2-methyl-3-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)- propanenitrile. Mass spectrum of this compound is presented in Fig. 15 and the mechanism of its formation is presented in Fig. 16. In impurity profiles of MDMA samples prepared by this method we also identified an imine corresponding to compound 4, which mass spectrum is presented in Fig. 17. All these compounds were identified only in this method



Haven't several people theorized that the issue is in the reductive amination stage?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> I also want to point out that in that article they are not running GCMS on the MDMA. They extract the contaminants first and then run GCMS on the contaminants.
> 
> This is interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> Haven't several people theorized that the issue is in the reductive amination stage?


Using different reductive amination methods leads to many different and intermediate mdma compounds and mda in some cases. 

I think the big impurities are usually starting materials left over which didn't react and alot of solvent. Anhydrous acetone washes will usually remove like 10% of product of brown crystals black mdma washed will have to 20% + product weight reduced. This leaves the mdma looking more white and is usually done by people worried about toxic synthesis byproducts. 

I believe your 80% sample would probably be like 10-16% could be just the HCL Salt leaving a few % of random synthesis impurities.


----------



## draculic acid69

TripSitterNZ said:


> I think the rule of hand is that usually the binder and mdma are pressed together in equal amounts usually its a calcium binder so a 240 mg mdma pill will also have 240 mg calcium binder leading to 480 mg total weight but some pressers vary how much total % of the weight is binder.


Its magnesium in the binder not calcium.mg stearate is what's used.
Just looked at a site bout pressing pills and they're using dicalcium phosphate as a filler.ive never seen this in pharmaceuticals or heard of it being used before.there using it as the main filler instead of cellulose or lactose or whatever.


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ As I have posted several times now, International Energy Control does not use the standard that counts the HCL salt as 16% of MDMA. They are not including the HCL salt in their estimations. Read the article that I linked from Erowid IN FULL all the way to the bottom of the article and you will get to the section that describes the methodology International Energy Control uses. The 20% is NOT HCL salt.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

draculic acid69 said:


> Its magnesium in the binder not calcium.mg stearate is what's used.
> Just looked at a site bout pressing pills and they're using dicalcium phosphate as a filler.ive never seen this in pharmaceuticals or heard of it being used before.there using it as the main filler instead of cellulose or lactose or whatever.


Lol they can use anything they want at the end of the day calcium binders are more common. Personally thats what i see in pressed machines is a 50% mix of mdma and calcium binder but the binder is up to whatever people can get ahold of. Well you may read the net til the end of time you aint pressing pills yourself and its evident your lack of knowledge of how mdma is supplied pressed and made.


----------



## draculic acid69

TripSitterNZ said:


> Lol they can use anything they want at the end of the day calcium binders are more common. Personally thats what i see in pressed machines is a 50% mix of mdma and calcium binder but the binder is up to whatever people can get ahold of. Well you may read the net til the end of time you aint pressing pills yourself and its evident your lack of knowledge of how mdma is supplied pressed and made.


Like you know all.


----------



## psy997

draculic acid69 said:


> Like you know all.



My biggest issue with this thread as it's transpired the past few weeks.


----------



## Simosom

2017 my wife took a blue Rolls-Royce pill with me at the techno party. 
Pill had a 200 mg stamp on it and extasy data tested it as MDMA 200 mg. Marguis went straight to black. 








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #5794 - Blue Rolls Royce, 5794 (m)
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				



The pill, i had tried before and by experience it was 200 mg. 
So, my wife was not total virgin, she had one E experience back in 2005 where she took half untested pill and she had a good time, not life changing experience or typical first time MDMA experience. 
The Rolls Royce pill she had been eating during the night by 1/3 every couple of hours, as i though that 100mg at once might be too much for her, she is very skinny and light. 
The overall experience for her was mongy, she spent the night staying in one place, not dancing at all, just chit-chated with her friend who was drinking votka. 
Yes, the dose migh have been too low, but 60-70 mg of good magic stuff would def. made her rolling.


----------



## Negi

Simosom said:


> 2017 my wife took a blue Rolls-Royce pill with me at the techno party.
> Pill had a 200 mg stamp on it and extasy data tested it as MDMA 200 mg. Marguis went straight to black.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #5794 - Blue Rolls Royce, 5794 (m)
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pill, i had tried before and by experience it was 200 mg.
> So, my wife was not total virgin, she had one E experience back in 2005 where she took half untested pill and she had a good time, not life changing experience or typical first time MDMA experience.
> The Rolls Royce pill she had been eating during the night by 1/3 every couple of hours, as i though that 100mg at once might be too much for her, she is very skinny and light.
> The overall experience for her was mongy, she spent the night staying in one place, not dancing at all, just chit-chated with her friend who was drinking votka.
> Yes, the dose migh have been too low, but 60-70 mg of good magic stuff would def. made her rolling.



 Did you buy the pill in Basel Switzerland in November 2017? Otherwise that testing result is worthless for judging the quantity of MDMA in your pill. People talking about pills just adds complexity and confusion to the whole thread because the quantity of MDMA in them is always unknown (unless you buy in bulk and submit multiple pills from the same batch to a testing centre).


----------



## indigoaura

I really wish we could have a sub-forum and divide this conversation up into multiple sub-topics. That way, specific chemistry conversations could continue in their own threads, and anecdotal reports could be relayed in their own threads etc. I feel like important information gets lost in here and has to be re-shared repeatedly. Also, new contributors come in without reading the full thread (which I understand, since it is 236 pages), but it causes confusion as well.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Also, new contributors come in without reading the full thread (which I understand, since it is 236 pages), but it causes confusion as well.


...and annoyance.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> I really wish we could have a sub-forum and divide this conversation up into multiple sub-topics. That way, specific chemistry conversations could continue in their own threads, and anecdotal reports could be relayed in their own threads etc. I feel like important information gets lost in here and has to be re-shared repeatedly. Also, new contributors come in without reading the full thread (which I understand, since it is 236 pages), but it causes confusion as well.


Hello. I am sorry, Im more gulty than any other in this regard.

Thats a great idea. I can't help share my mystical past expereinces. But sure this is serious enquiry and not the best place.

I'm too poorly atm and not tech orcommon sense savvy, but a seperate thread for random, anecdotal reports sounds good. Maybe already exists??

At the same time though...to a point, these specific, exact experiences are relevant to the topic. Subjectivity HAS to come into this. Not purely science. 

Not meaning to argue against at all. A line must be drawn. This gread has diverted I feel since origin to be much more focused on chemistry fact and science. I forget this.

Btw I do seriously respect what all of you are trying to establish here and I'm just as curious and fascinated by it all so I really am sorry for standing in the way at times.  

Keep at it guys/girls.


----------



## indigoaura

AutoTripper said:


> Hello. I am sorry, Im more gulty than any other in this regard.
> 
> Thats a great idea. I can't help share my mystical past expereinces. But sure this is serious enquiry and not the best place.
> 
> I'm too poorly atm and not tech orcommon sense savvy, but a seperate thread for random, anecdotal reports sounds good. Maybe already exists??
> 
> At the same time though...to a point, these specific, exact experiences are relevant to the topic. Subjectivity HAS to come into this. Not purely science.
> 
> Not meaning to argue against at all. A line must be drawn. This gread has diverted I feel since origin to be much more focused on chemistry fact and science. I forget this.
> 
> Btw I do seriously respect what all of you are trying to establish here and I'm just as curious and fascinated by it all so I really am sorry for standing in the way at times.
> 
> Keep at it guys/girls.



I always appreciate your Kerouac style inspired anecdotes, @AutoTripper! What can really drown this thread are back and forth posts between a few people arguing over something trivial or going off topic. Then, before you know it, there are 3 new pages of posts and the thread has totally lost focus. I just wish there was a better way to organize it. It is an unweildy beast. If we had a sub-forum, then it could be broken up by theories, anecdotes, chemistry topics like TLC plates/column chromatography etc.


----------



## indigoaura

Latest version:

*Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”*


We are specifically discussing MDMA that has been sent to a lab (such as Energy Control or Drugs Data), tested with some form of GCMS or other lab testing, found to be MDMA, but presents with a different effects profile than typical MDMA. We are not discussing un-tested product that could be anything or contain any adulterant.
“Loss of magic” does not explain the issue, because the alternate effects profile has been experienced by users new to MDMA, including MDMA virgins and users with a short history of use. Also, many users who have experienced this sub-par MDMA go on to experience traditional MDMA from other batches of product with no loss of quality to the experience.
“Set and Setting” does not explain the issue because it has been experienced across multiple settings/environments/circumstances. Furthermore, multiple users report experiencing the sub-par effects from one batch, and then trying a different batch and easily rolling with a traditional effects profile.
Dosage does not explain the issue, because the questionable products have been tested in a wide range of doses from low to high with no improvement in effects.
Route of administration does not change the issue, as several users report alternate routes of administration with no change in effects.
No, we do not mean to imply that ALL modern MDMA is of poor quality. Obviously, there is plenty of high-quality MDMA out there. However, there is a large amount of poor-quality product available, and it has been reported across multiple continents and regions.
Although we have not currently identified the specific nature of this problem, we have discussed a variety of possibilities based on published research articles. Some of the possible explanations are: undetected contaminants, structurally similar compounds that present as MDMA to GCMS, metabolic/liver processing issues, drug polymorphism, and isomer ratios.
Please review the below chart for a simplified visual of what has been noted by many contributors to this thread over the last several years. These are generalizations based on observations and may not be true in every circumstance.

*Traditional (magic) MDMA**Sub-par (meh) MDMA**Mydriasis (eye dilation)*YesNo*Enhanced tactile senses*YesNo*Enhanced auditory senses*YesNo*Enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music*YesNo*Feelings of euphoria*YesNo*Feelings of empathy*YesNo*Pro-social behaviors*YesNo*Energy*YesNo*Feeling sleepy*NoYes*Active desire to disengage from social interaction.*NoYes*Enhanced sex/making out*YesNo*Feelings of love*YesNo*Desire to be still*NoYes*Jaw movement*YesYes*Profuse Sweating/Feeling Hot*YesNo*Feeling cold in warm environments*NoYes*Duration*4-6 hours1-3 hours*Comedown*Typically, gradualTypically, abrupt


----------



## psy997

1) I'm going to actually give feedback this time, indigo. Sorry about not doing it before. 

2) I'm wondering if a MediaWiki instance would serve our purposes since chat pages are available there, we could also aggregate information on main wiki pages, and I could probably run it on a server I have access to, as well.


----------



## tired of crap

Though my mdma is not lab tested, Ive been wise enough to be using reagents for over a decade now (and thank f I have... the stuff some ppl eat smdh, anyways). The stuff in question showed positive on all 4 marquis, mecke, mandelin and folin. I feel that my batch, which I have now had for a number of years, likely greater than 5 because I just didnt enjoy it, is middle of the road meh.
...
I didnt have fresh reagents when I first came across it but it was on good word. And my old reagents results were promising so...

Now this stuff isnt bad, better than some others that have shown positive reagent results. (Though I honestly couldnt recall any differences in colourmetric testing over the years but I could test this again if itd be helpful).

Anyways, I didnt have a means to differentiate between primary and secondary aimines via a simons /robadope.
But given the other results I ate a stupid amount with a modest amount of acid. It was a decent time lol.. best roll in ages, in fact, likely due to my long tolerance break. And the hike in the woods was real intense. Deep breathing, all bug eyed, lots of nystagmus lol

But when I tried it on its own, some months later, I was kinda taken aback, something just wasnt right.
I honestly thought buddy had mixed the mda with the mdma. I was lethargic - to a degree, there was little empathy, some love - but it was mostly at how good Im feeling, but not too good like I wanna touch everything good, my pupils dilate but they arent flying saucers

And I just dont wanna open up, Id much rather just sit and listen. Which isnt a bad thing but its not what Id come to love about M. Honestly when I found M in high school it really broke me out of my shell. I had a lot of social anxiety and my Mom was sick and it honestly really helped me.....then a few years later I abused it, not as bad as some but fml if theres ever something I regret its taking that much M lol (not funny... though. I also regret alocohl addiction... but thats another story and now Im rambling ..)

Anyways, tt took me 4 years before getting fresh reagents... (What can I say, I dont party much anymore lol) ...
But it turns out, as far as i can tell, this is just middle grade mehdma.

Of note my other "softer" m is most likely mde. Which I might say, given both my meh and mde are short and dont produce much of a comedown, nor midweek blues, they combine nicely... I like about 2:1 meh:mde at about 80:40 with a 60 mg 2:1 boost at ~ 45 min - 1h. The early, slightly beefer (half vs my typical third) boost makes up for the weaker effects from both the meh and the mde and extends the shorter duration. 

Though this isnt ideal it tends to suffice, while I look for the elusive quality M. I just dont long for it the way I used to proper M
Again none of it has ever been lab tested so maybe its just nostalgia
But Ive definitely had consistent crystals test positive and suck even more ( lol... sad) so who knows..

Just my 15 ¢


----------



## draculic acid69

psy997 said:


> My biggest issue with this thread as it's transpired the past few weeks.


Yeah person is kind of a dick.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

indigoaura said:


> @Wilson Wilson I think the simplest explanation of how you are getting magic from Q-Dance pills and other people are not is that there are fake pills in the market, or even, that Q-Dance sends certain regions different product than other regions. They may even have satellite locations prepping/pressing pills with different methodologies.



I agree wrt fake presses especially in the US where it's obviously more difficult and expensive to get the real deal imported.

I would be surprised if Q-Dance made bunk pills for certain regions. I do know that Q-Dance (and others) make lower dosed pills specifically for the USA market. For example the Tic Tac pills contained about 150mg MDMA and were produced primarily for the US. The CP pills more popular in the US also have a similar kind of dosage iirc.

But as we know, lower dose doesn't mean less magic, and higher dose doesn't mean more magic. Crews like Q-Dance either buy or produce MDMA in such huge bulk that it wouldn't really make sense to also get lower quality stuff and press it for a specific market. If anything that'd cost more money than just making one press of each pill. The standard ~250mg Q-Dance pill costs pennies wholesale. I don't think price discussion is allowed in this subforum so I won't be more specific, but seriously, those top pills are already dirt cheap. It would probably cost more than its worth to make different batches with different MDMA for different regions at least as far as the big boys go.

Small time pressers knocking out fakes is a whole other story of course.



FuckinAcidMan said:


> So I don't really see why some MDMA wouldn't be better than other MDMA even if they're both the same from a molecular standpoint. And I'm sure there's more logical reasons that batch variation would qualitatively change the experience of the compound when ingested.



I do not doubt there is variation in synthesis which then leads to a variation in quality.

I do doubt the claim that all modern MDMA is shit and only the fabled "old stuff" is good.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Latest version:
> Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”


You should probably add that this is about "in vivo" testing of MDMA alone and not with other drugs ...or after other drugs.
3h "before" other drugs might be fine and even diagnostic.

Lab testing, too, of course.


----------



## nznity

Wilson Wilson said:


> I do doubt the claim that all modern MDMA is shit and only the fabled "old stuff" is good.


I've had meh a few times but there's plenty of magic down here in Southamerica.


----------



## psy997

No feedback to give, really. It's nice, indigo.

Also, thoughts on a MediaWiki instance?


----------



## indigoaura

@psy997 I have worked with Wiki pages before, but the specific version I used is no longer an option. My primary concern is keeping people's IP addresses and identifying information private. Would that be possible on MediaWiki? Alternatively, if people used TOR to access the Wiki, would the program balk at that, or would it work?


----------



## indigoaura

I made one small change to the chart. Instead of "Enhanced sex/making out" I changed it to "Enhanced Erotic Activity/Making Out" since some users may not actually engage in sex due to prolactin etc.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> @psy997 I have worked with Wiki pages before, but the specific version I used is no longer an option. My primary concern is keeping people's IP addresses and identifying information private. Would that be possible on MediaWiki? Alternatively, if people used TOR to access the Wiki, would the program balk at that, or would it work?



I don't imagine access via TOR would be an issue, but I'll check it out along with IP anonymity.


----------



## Simosom

Excellent. Well done.


----------



## user666

I tested my Meh with the Liebermann reagent (KNO2).
It was purple for a moment and then it went to black.

The magic MDMA has gone straight to black and in 2min it became brown/maroon.
I noticed that the color after the 2min strongly depends on the ambient temperature

Note:
_I have not consumed the magic stuff yet, but I observed others on it during a garage party, with fully dilated pupils, loving, sociable/talkative, dancing for hours,  and rubbing on stuff like cats.  I asked one couple about the dose they took and they gave me 80mg (woman) and 120mg (man)._


----------



## indigoaura

I just tested multiple samples with Liebermann reagent from Dancesafe.

I am really not sure what to make of any of the results.

I keep a very, very small amount of anything I come across in the hope there might be better testing available eventually. I usually have less than 1 dose set aside.

All of my tested samples were varying degrees of "meh."

Sample 1 - DW sample. Supposedly acetone washed and re-crystallized.
Appearance - White table salt
Liebermann result: Black immediately with bubbling. Separated into red and black. Large red bubble formed in center and then popped. Red around edges of black at 100 seconds.

Sample 2 - Local, supposedly sourced from Mexico.
Appearance - pink/tan sand
Liebermann result: Black bubbling. Small red bubble in center. Red at edges at 55 seconds.

Sample 3 - DW sample. Same source as sample 1, but not washed or re-crystallized.
Appearance - yellow powder, fine
Liebermann result: Black bubbling. No red bubble. Edges brown/yellow.

Sample 4 - Local, supposedly "Dutch import" (personally never consumed, told it was "meh")
Appearance - Cream powder
Liebermann result: Minimal bubbling compared to other samples. Black. No red. Purple/Yellow at edge.

Sample 5 - Online. Sample I had access to from 2005 onward.
Appearance - White powder
Liebermann Result: Purple/Black. Large bubble formed. Mostly black without other colors at edges.

I decided after all this to go back to sample 1, but to get the sample from a different bag.

Sample 1, take 2
Appearance - White table salt
Liebermann result: Completely black. Bubbling. Minimal red at edges of sample at 2 minute mark.

So, the two different baggies of sample 1 produced very different results. I will do more tests with that sample to see if it looks different every time, or if each baggie produces a different test result in a consistent fashion.

For @G_Chem and @user666, when you say that the magic samples turned to brown/maroon, was that just at the edges of the puddle or was it the entire puddle? My results had distinctly different subsections of color, and the edges were different colors.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> ...was that just at the edges of the puddle or was it the entire puddle?


Only edges.


----------



## psy997

Ok guys. I just spent the first half of the day setting up a MediaWiki page on a hosted server for us to use. Before I share the link, I want to share a few usage details.

1) Any registered user can add and edit pages. Please make an account (ideally with the same name as here, no email required) and contribute as you wish. I'm thinking what would be ideal is pages for every possible issue we're looking at, ideally with relevant BL posts copied over to provide a comprehensive overview of already contributed/collected information. That would be a good bit of work, but not _too _bad if the new search function here finds posts even from before it was implemented.
2) Comment threads are enabled for every page. At the bottom of each page you'll see an Add Comment button. Click that and you can make a comment with a title and post body. Replies can be made to top level comments that then stay under the parent comment. Parent comments can be collapsed, etc. It should provide a much better solution for collaboration and discussion than the non-delineated thread we currently have here.
3) I can do pretty much anything with the site, so if you have ideas, please let me know (ideally through the To-Do list page on there - for tracking)
4) There is a real-time chatroom that logs all messages (for information preservation purposes)
5) I'm running everything on a secured and private server, so we should be good privacy wise. Again, no email required for user creation.

I think that's it.

EDIT) Not it. If anyone wants greater admin capacities, I'm more than willing to upgrade trusted contributor's accounts.

Without further ado, the site is https://mdma.noosworx.com


----------



## psy997

@indigoaura , are you still planning on going through this entire thread and aggregating all the information?


----------



## indigoaura

@psy997 
Yes, I was planning to go through the anecdotal reports specifically, compiling and averaging reported effects etc.


----------



## indigoaura

From International Energy Control:



> We use GCMS for qualitative analysis of almost all samples we work, and in case of MDMA UV-Vis for quantification.
> When we analyze MDMA on GCMS *we notify byproducts when they have a concentration higher than 20ppm,* because we have a signal enough relevant to be notified.
> But your sample is just MDMA. Even though you'll get TIC and the whole chromatogram, there's no evidence of those byproducts, but instead, for future purpose if you want to seek for byproducts (even if are below 20 ppm) I can change the method and sample preparation in order to look to this.



So, as I was hypothesizing, these companies are only reporting byproducts under specific circumstances. Otherwise, they are leaving that information out of the results.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> @psy997
> Yes, I was planning to go through the anecdotal reports specifically, compiling and averaging reported effects etc.



Great. I saw your edit to the To-Do list on the wiki and I think I can setup a form to intake anecdotal reports. What kind of fields would you want me to add to the form?

Also, I've asked a mod if it's possible for us to get an export of all the posts in this thread for easier organization.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> From International Energy Control:
> 
> 
> 
> So, as I was hypothesizing, these companies are only reporting byproducts under specific circumstances. Otherwise, they are leaving that information out of the results.



That just sounds like they need enough of a substance to be present for it to show up on the GC/MS. 20ppm works out to 2 micrograms in 100mg of a substance. I don't think contaminants at that level are going to be active.


----------



## psy997

MehDMA and MagicDMA reports can now be submitted here:






						Submit a MehDMA or MagicDMA report - MehDMA Research
					






					mdma.noosworx.com
				




Please give feedback on the form (same for both Meh and Magic).


----------



## indigoaura

psy997 said:


> MehDMA and MagicDMA reports can now be submitted here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Submit a MehDMA or MagicDMA report - MehDMA Research
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mdma.noosworx.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please give feedback on the form (same for both Meh and Magic).



I am looking over it now.

Is there any way we can use regular time instead of military time, or is the WIKI predisposed to military time?

"How soon until able to sleep" and "Feelings of sleepiness" are listed twice.

We should add "Time since last meal."

Can we change the word "sexual" to the word "erotic" to facilitate inclusiveness of a wider range of experiences?

Can we add an input for whether the product was lab tested and another area for whether it was reagent tested and what the result was?

I will keep thinking about this and add more commentary shortly.


----------



## psy997

I can make all of those changes, yes. Unfortunately, the fields don't actually require data in a specific format, I intentionally chose 24h time so as to keep everything consistent, and since its used more globally. 

Sleepiness and how soon to sleep aren't really the same, and may be nice to gain further granularity of information. In the same way questions are repeated in various ways on psychological questionnaires. Having said that, what do you think? 

Sexual to erotic, sure. 

Time since last meal, yep good idea. 

And fields for tests are great.


----------



## andyturbo

I support 24hr timing. Its seriously something anyone can learn in a hour.


----------



## AutoTripper

Okay just a little add. I strongly believe you CAN sleep on the best, truest Magic MDMA. Or at any point. Also, you can have a very sort of- withdrawn, introverted, monged out experience where communication doesn' t want to flow.

Just a mad thought right now- hiamalayan and dead sea salt baths- depending on waxing or waning moon, one you absorb the minerals, the other toxims etc are drawn out.

Also making authentic ghee- it is recommended since ancient indian tradituinal times- to make ghee on a full moon.

The forces of nature are very real and under accounted for. We fall into trap of thinking WE have control, when it is the flow of life.



So serious questiin actually....has anybody tried rolling at different, specific points of the Lunar cycle? Like full, wax8ng, waning moon?

On an eclipse? Im very stoned and sleep dep'd so pinch of salt please.

But this just occured to me. Rolls could be remarkably different , from the same batch, depending on lunar and cosmic influences on physiology, mindset ., energy nature and requirements etc.

Maybe somebody can roll on a full moon, then at the opposite of that ( sorry not really sure what that is at the moment in my major hazy state in life currently ).


Just one final point- i made before- I strongly believe that some form of MehDma has been around way before 2005, even in 90's. I feel this possible truth is forgotten, but could also hold clues.


Sorry of this is off top guys girls. Just sharing my throughts and insights.


----------



## indigoaura

> Sleepiness and how soon to sleep aren't really the same, and may be nice to gain further granularity of information. In the same way questions are repeated in various ways on psychological questionnaires. Having said that, what do you think?



I think you misunderstood. There are a total of four entries. It says "sleepiness" twice, AND it says "how soon to sleep" twice. I agree they are completely different and both need to be there, but they are both repeated.


----------



## indigoaura

@AutoTripper As you know from the other thread, I am not opposed to the idea of astrological influences. However, what does not make sense about that is why it would not have been evident previously. If phases of the moon have a significant impact, they would have been impacting my rolls from 2000-2005 as well.

That said, the last time I rolled it was between a full moon and third quarter, and the last time I rolled before that it was first quarter. I am not opposed to aiming for a full moon and new moon, but I doubt there will be significant changes.


----------



## psy997

@AutoTripper unfortunately my last Meh experience was at a full moon party with a bunch of other "conscious people" (I dislike conscious communities) and even a huge cacao ceremony at the beginning. I was feeling amazing on a quarter tab of acid and cacao, the Meh hit, and boom, the classic don't feel good, want to isolate myself, not move, not even smoke cigarettes (another key indicator for me, I smoke like a madman on good MDMA), etc. came on and I moved from an 8.5/10 to 4/10 in subjective wellbeing.



indigoaura said:


> I think you misunderstood. There are a total of four entries. It says "sleepiness" twice, AND it says "how soon to sleep" twice. I agree they are completely different and both need to be there, but they are both repeated.



I did misunderstand, thank you.


----------



## mars2025

I came across a 2007 post by the OP (Le Junk) where he describes acetone wash on some yellow Louis Vuitton pills and says "I am doing this shit right now and it is nothing like last night. And this is back to back nights as well!   been doing E since it was legal and I will tell you, this is as good as it gets folks!"

Based on the description and date, the pill may have been this one:
https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=1638 

So magic is not purity?  Seem unlikely that someone had 99% pure MDMA material and then pressed it into that LV pill cut with meth.  Or else, magic was indeed decent mdma plus an active cut.


----------



## mars2025

A while back TripSitterNZ said that today's MDMA was better and cleaner than it's ever been.  Looks like he/she was right:





						DrugsData: Test Result Statistics: Summary Data
					

DrugsData (was EcstasyData) lab testing results listing




					www.ecstasydata.org


----------



## ThreePointCircle

mars2025 said:


> A while back TripSitterNZ said that today's MDMA was better and cleaner than it's ever been.  Looks like he/she was right:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData: Test Result Statistics: Summary Data
> 
> 
> DrugsData (was EcstasyData) lab testing results listing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org


Or the testing methodology at these labs could do with some improvement.  See this thread for details.


----------



## mars2025

indigoaura said:


> So far, the responses I have seen to batches of MDMA have been consistent from person to person.



Just now on this thread, WisonWilson loves qdance presses but they don't work for Rainey.  Looks like both Rainey and WW are in the UK.  Both WW and Rainey tried many different qdance presses.


----------



## psy997

Ok so editing forms on Wikimedia is a BITCH. Running into lots of issues. Ideally we don't change it much moving forward. Or, I find a better way. We could possibly do an external survey?


----------



## mars2025

*Please read this first, before posting to the thread “What is Wrong with the MDMA Available Today?”* 

fwiw Shulgins don't mention many of the effects on the current list.  Let's check Erowid for the effects that are definite, primary and consistent across users?

the following is from the 1984 paper that Indigo posted a while back:

Loss of appetite
Reduced desire to do mental work
Reduced ability to do mental work
Relaxation of OCD
Endactic feeling (see erowid)
sex (or completion) on E is impossible for many men


----------



## mars2025

ThreePointCircle said:


> Or the testing methodology at these labs could do with some improvement.  See this thread for details.



Their methodology is great for how little we pay.

In their defense, we pay $50 maybe $100 to access GC/MS or other equally expensive analytical equipment.  For that price, they id MDMA and nearly all other known drugs.  This is very very good for a consumer facing lab.

For (guess) 25 thousand USD, a lab could do a detailed analysis of the impurities and synthesis byproducts in your sample.  Break down that 20% into 5% of A, 4% of B, down to 0.1% of Z.  But no one could do that for fifty bucks.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

mars2025 said:


> Their methodology is great for how little we pay.
> 
> In their defense, we pay $50 maybe $100 to access GC/MS or other equally expensive analytical equipment.  For that price, they id MDMA and nearly all other known drugs.  This is very very good for a consumer facing lab.
> 
> For (guess) 25 thousand USD, a lab could do a detailed analysis of the impurities and synthesis byproducts in your sample.  Break down that 20% into 5% of A, 4% of B, down to 0.1% of Z.  But no one could do that for fifty bucks.



Ok, so you're accepting they don't give the kind of detail that you can draw conclusions from, cool.


----------



## user666

mars2025 said:


> sex (or completion) on E is impossible for many men


What kind of sex do you have in mind?  There is more than one, you know...



mars2025 said:


> For (guess) 25 thousand USD, a lab could do a detailed analysis of the impurities and synthesis byproducts in your sample.  Break down that 20% into 5% of A, 4% of B, down to 0.1% of Z.  But no one could do that for fifty bucks.


Eeeeeee, for $25k you can buy your own used analyzer.
The expendables such as solvents for separation by HPLC won't run you over $100 for one sample. They would not exceed that even if you separated the components through the less then modern column chromatography


----------



## mars2025

Here is the table I was referring to.  From this table one can draw the conclusion that xtc sold today is more pure (meaning MDMA and nothing else) than it's ever been (yes, more pure than 1999-2001, based on the last line in the table)



Samples Containing2020201920182017201620152014201320122011201020092008200720062005200420032002200120001999199819971996  TotalsMDMA Only46.049.254.848.947.233.423.828.124.317.324.78.715.217.630.428.711.337.433.649.745.650.7006.140.3MDMA + Something6.74.56.75.37.36.610.813.116.118.320.226.139.145.654.335.333.318.118.910.54.57.20060.610.8No MDMA2.55.38.810.19.515.231.232.939.037.737.160.145.736.815.236.055.344.547.539.849.842.00033.321.5


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Er no you can't.  While this table is interesting, the top line means that either a sample contained only MDMA (unlikely given the results for the papers published on this thread) or that the non-MDMA constituents were too small for their method to detect, or the type(s) wasn't something their method can detect.  Kinda the whole point of this thread really.


----------



## mars2025

user666 said:


> Eeeeeee, for $25k you can buy your own used analyzer.
> The expendables such as solvents for separation by HPLC won't run you over $100 for one sample. They would not exceed that even if you separated the components through the less then modern column chromatography



I should have said "for the industry standard price" instead of guessing at a number.  But since you already replied ... 

Edata says: The Mass Spectrometer used by our primary lab is [this one, I looked it up]:





						Buy Agilent 5973 For Sale, New & Used Prices | Labx.com
					

Find the best price on new and used Agilent Mass Spectrometers on LabX. Buy Agilent products and more through auction, for sale classifieds and buy now options!




					www.labx.com
				




After you buy your own analyzer.
Delivery installation and tech support, esp if you buy it used.  It's not a toaster...
Cost of labor.  Analyst skilled in using that equipment makes $X / hr.  
Number of hours to break down 20% into components.   
Software and/or spectral data for the various impurities for comparison.
Note that this is not a routine project
Number of hours to prepare the report
Lab overhead. 
Profit margin.
And so on.


----------



## mars2025

ThreePointCircle said:


> Er no you can't.  While this table is interesting, the top line means that either a sample contained only MDMA (unlikely given the results for the papers published on this thread) or that the non-MDMA constituents were too small for their method to detect, or the type(s) wasn't something their method can detect.  Kinda the whole point of this thread really.


 
Not sure exactly which papers you're referring to, but here is their commentary to that table.  I can also link US NIH (institutes of health) study reporting statistics on Energy Control data.  For the last few years they measure 88% average purity of MDMA material with a standard deviation of 1.4%.  [ This is my last post for today. ]

Notes about above table

The following the list of substances associated with each 'grouping' (row)


 
MDMA Only : MDMA
MDMA + Something : Results containing MDMA and at least one other non-inert substance
No MDMA : Results containing no MDMA
No Chemicals Detected : None Detected
Ecstasy-like Chemicals : MDA, MDE, 4-FA, Methylone, 4-Methylmethcathinone
Psychedelics : 2C-B, 5-MeO-DiPT, DOB, LSD, PMA, 5-MeO-DALT, 5-MeO-DPT, Bromo-dragonfly, 2C-I, AL-LAD, 25B-NBOMe, 25C-NBOMe, 25I-NBOMe, 1P-LSD, Iso-LSD
Cannabinoids : AB-PINACA, JWH-018, JWH-073, JWH-081, JWH-210, JWH-250, JWH-359, AB-CHMINACA, AB-FUBINACA, THC, Thermoliz UR-144F, UR-144, 5-fluoro-AMB, 5-fluoro-ADB , ADB-CHMINACA, ADB-FUBINACA, AMB-FUBINACA, NM-2201, U-47700, XLR-11
Dissociatives : DXM, Ketamine, PCP
Stimulants : Amphetamine, BZP, Caffeine, Cocaine, Methamphetamine, Pseudo/Ephedrine, TFMPP, MDPV, Dimethylcathinone, MDAI, Ethylamphetamine, Dibenzylpiperazine, mCPP, Modafinil, Phentermine
Depressants/Tranquilizers : Amitriptyline, Butabarbital, Carisoprodol, Codeine, Diazepam, Diphenhydramine, Oxycodone, Lorazepam, Dihydrocodeine, Fentanyl, Phenobarbital
Opioids : 4-ANPP, 4-Fluorobutyrfentanyl, 4-Fluoroisobutyrylfentanyl, Acetylfentanyl, Benzyl fentanyl, Butanoyl-4-fluorofentanyl, Butyrfentanyl, Cyclopentyl Fentanyl, Cyclopropyl Fentanyl, Fentanyl, Furanylfentanyl, Phenylfentanyl, Carfentanil, Buprenorphine, Codeine, Dihydrocodeine, Heroin, Hydrocodone, Hydromorphone, Methadone, Morphine, O-Desmethyltramadol, Opium, Oxycodone, Tramadol, U-47700, U-51754, Crotonylfentanyl, Methoxyacetylfentanyl
Non-Psychoactive Substances : Acetaminophen, Aspirin, Chlorpheniramine, Guaifenesin, Methyl Salicylate, Methandrostenolone, Phenylpropanolamine, Niacinamide, Ibuprofen, Procaine
Unidentified Substance : Unidentified
Not Sold as Ecstasy :


----------



## TripSitterNZ

AutoTripper said:


> Okay just a little add. I strongly believe you CAN sleep on the best, truest Magic MDMA. Or at any point. Also, you can have a very sort of- withdrawn, introverted, monged out experience where communication doesn' t want to flow.
> 
> Just a mad thought right now- hiamalayan and dead sea salt baths- depending on waxing or waning moon, one you absorb the minerals, the other toxims etc are drawn out.
> 
> Also making authentic ghee- it is recommended since ancient indian tradituinal times- to make ghee on a full moon.
> 
> The forces of nature are very real and under accounted for. We fall into trap of thinking WE have control, when it is the flow of life.
> 
> 
> 
> So serious questiin actually....has anybody tried rolling at different, specific points of the Lunar cycle? Like full, wax8ng, waning moon?
> 
> On an eclipse? Im very stoned and sleep dep'd so pinch of salt please.
> 
> But this just occured to me. Rolls could be remarkably different , from the same batch, depending on lunar and cosmic influences on physiology, mindset ., energy nature and requirements etc.
> 
> Maybe somebody can roll on a full moon, then at the opposite of that ( sorry not really sure what that is at the moment in my major hazy state in life currently ).
> 
> 
> Just one final point- i made before- I strongly believe that some form of MehDma has been around way before 2005, even in 90's. I feel this possible truth is forgotten, but could also hold clues.
> 
> 
> Sorry of this is off top guys girls. Just sharing my throughts and insights.


Personally i probably rolled 200 + times if not more but i dont count. And my supplies were always bought in bulk so it was eating the same pills or batches til i ran out of them and had to restock. MDMA can flip from sedation to stimulation within the same roll like a wave but of course the sedation is still a sedating form of stimulation your body will be shaking and jaw etc still want to talk alot but no longer move around this also comes into setting of the mdma. If people are taking mdma alone its going to have different effects than in a group setting also the same for the sort of music events your going to. I believe full moons bring out all the lunatics and crazies i have seen schizos i know go even more schizophernic every time the full moon came and the crime increase. While my trips under full moons outside took on extra crazy dimensional travels. With mdma i never acutally bothered to really pay attention to the lunar cycle since i was doing it weekly or twice a week. 

Hardstyle hard trance and dark psytrance are the events where you go really fucking crazy on mdma the hard bpm and bass gets you driving. North american raves are dogshit compared to australia and europe. Australian mdma labs were the biggest in the world during early 2000's til mid alot of police busts shut down most of them thus holland became the biggest. Indonesia use to have massive safrole labs til the UN burnt all the trees down. Yet australia was using PMK since 2000 in labs it was all amazing mdma.  

We both been eating large doses of mdma so we know how different it becomes past half a gram. Its just like psychedelics you dont know how a drug truly works til you done it 50 times. I been in all sorts of states on rolls seen all manners of crazy shit. Hell on 600 mg i was floored on the ground during winter with my top off and a fan on me so i didn't die from overheating and i literally was not in my room i was hallucinating i was at a full blown rave to the music i was listening to each time i would get sucked into the vision i would come out and a hour had passed within what felt like seconds. 

Even in oldschool rave videos you see the difference in how mdma reacts with certain people. UK rave scene was fucking nuts people weren't eating just 80 mg the true ravers were eating 25+ pills on the weekend 50 if they were full time mdma dealers then spend the rest of the week on xannax and repeat it the next weekend. 

Many people i knew would roll thurs fri saturday night every fucking week for months on end.


----------



## thegreenhand

Sorry to add in even more anecdotes but I’ll concur with NZ that magic MDMA can be “sedating”. My first roll (with undoubtedly good shit, 5 hrs, pure love, pupil dilation etc.) me and my two homies literally did not move from the couch we were sitting on. Like not once. Just sat there and let the waves of god roll over us as we talked. The conversation was definitely stimulated, though it was my two best friends so we would have talked anyways. It more made us talk about deep, personal things that may not have otherwise shared.

Point is: movement != magic


----------



## indigoaura

@mars2025

What is your goal with blowing up this thread with endless posts that sometimes do not seem to be directed at anything specific or related to anyone specific? What is your point? I asked you a specific question awhile back about how your theory took into account the new users who found meh to be meh and magic to be magic, and you never replied. How does all of this recent stuff you have posted address that query?

There are people who have been reading, contributing, researching, and studying this topic for years. It is obvious from your posts you have not even read the thread from start to finish.

If you had read the thread you would know that multiple samples have been acetone washed and that has not corrected the problem. I'm sure an acetone wash would go a long way towards improving the quality of a dirty pill, as was the case with Le Junk's pill, but it has not seemed to have much impact for those who have tried it with crystal.



> So magic is not purity? Seem unlikely that someone had 99% pure MDMA material and then pressed it into that LV pill cut with meth. Or else, magic was indeed decent mdma plus an active cut.



You would also know that samples I personally consumed and sent to a lab and found to be magic were MDMA WITHOUT any active cuts such as meth.

Example: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=879

Also, who is saying that magic is not purity? If the problem is an active contaminant, then the issue could be boiled down to purity.

The table that I posted is meant to summarize what has been discussed in this thread in anecdotal reports of magic vs. meh experiences, not summarize Erowid which is readily available for anyone who would like to read it at any time.

What possible point do you have in talking about how much it would cost to build our own lab? Obviously, we do not have the $ to build our own lab. The labs are offering a harm reduction service, and if they are not picking up on something that is having an effect on the user, then they need to adjust their practices. Nobody is trying to de-value the work these labs do. Why are you going off on a whole rant about the cost of lab equipment and paying lab employees?

The table you posted actually makes our point for us. Why are these pills getting stronger and stronger in mg dosage and weaker and weaker in effect?



> Not sure exactly which papers you're referring to



...because you haven't read the thread (or the papers, obviously).

Look, I don't want to be hostile, I really don't, and I have been told that is how I can come across sometimes in writing, so I apologize if that is the case. But maybe, just maybe, you should hang for awhile and try to catch up and read all the posted research and get to know people and get familiar with the full topic before just blowing up the thread. I thought your hybrid theory of some people being able to experience meh as magic was really interesting, and we want new ideas and contributions like that, but, you are also bringing up a lot of stuff that has already been addressed.


----------



## indigoaura

@psy997 Your point about smoking is true for me too. I have never been a smoker, but when rolling on good shit, I could put away a pack of menthols because it felt so good to smoke them. 

@thegreenhand There is a big difference, in my opinion, between being "blissed out" on the sofa, laying around because it just FEELS so good, getting lost in the music and the softness of the corduroy cushions, and the way your own hair feels...and the mehDMA effect of checking out where nothing feels good, you just want to be very still, because you have no motivation to go anywhere, and you wish the music might stop and the people around you would go away. 

I used to end up on the sofa, or the floor, or the beanbag or whatever all the time, because I just drifted there and it felt too good to move. You would still want to talk though, and engage, and you wanted to stay put because it was just SO wonderful. 

The two experiences are very different. You might be on the couch the whole time with either one, but for totally different reasons.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> @AutoTripper As you know from the other thread, I am not opposed to the idea of astrological influences. However, what does not make sense about that is why it would not have been evident previously. If phases of the moon have a significant impact, they would have been impacting my rolls from 2000-2005 as well.
> 
> That said, the last time I rolled it was between a full moon and third quarter, and the last time I rolled before that it was first quarter. I am not opposed to aiming for a full moon and new moon, but I doubt there will be significant changes.


Yeah, sorry I could have made it clearer, I don't actually mean to suggest even remotely, that any potential (but in my view, guaranteed subtle astrological influences on rolls) is anything to do with the Meh experiences.

That wasn't my point. It just suddenly occurred to me that this will definitely be playing a parts in our subjective experiences at every single point in our life and it should certainly also relate to MDMA experiences but I have not really seen any discussion on this at all ever I don't think.

So I support your logic that this would not be an explanation at all because of course this will have been the case throughout time since our lives began.

The real point I was making though it's that I do very strongly believe that Mehdma has been around since the early 2000s and 90s as well just not identified or really appraised or considered when there was still so much good product available if you knew where to find it.


----------



## AutoTripper

psy997 said:


> @AutoTripper unfortunately my last Meh experience was at a full moon party with a bunch of other "conscious people" (I dislike conscious communities) and even a huge cacao ceremony at the beginning. I was feeling amazing on a quarter tab of acid and cacao, the Meh hit, and boom, the classic don't feel good, want to isolate myself, not move, not even smoke cigarettes (another key indicator for me, I smoke like a madman on good MDMA), etc. came on and I moved from an 8.5/10 to 4/10 in subjective wellbeing.
> 
> 
> 
> I did misunderstand, thank you.


Haha, one fact- I ate easily over 3000 E's, excluding MDMA. Whole lot of other shit too. Crazy fucker lol.

But- honest to God never in my life have I once taken a single toke on a tailored cigarette, I never even considered it for half a second on pure principle.

I never even smoked a roll up I only used tobacco for a number of years, (2001 to 2005 when I became severely allergic to all forms of tobacco smoke but cigarettes are 100 times worse than rolling tobacco I really cannot go anywhere near tailored cigarettes they are the purest poison man ever invented to be consumed on such a massive scale and infinitely more toxic and poisonous than rolling tobacco), as a joint smoker and purely to combine with cannabis I did accidentally toke on a roll up a number of times thinking it was a joint but immediately passed it on in party situations etc I never ever intentionally smoked tobacco on its own for the sake of tobacco once in my life.

There may well not be another single person on Earth who has a similar history of of poly drug use to myself, especially the heavy ecstasy use, cannabis smoker etc, in all common western party, rave, home environments....


Who has literally never even toked on a cigarette once in their life.

What can I say, I am a man of strong principle, but Im sure a hypocrite at the same time.


----------



## AutoTripper

thegreenhand said:


> Sorry to add in even more anecdotes but I’ll concur with NZ that magic MDMA can be “sedating”. My first roll (with undoubtedly good shit, 5 hrs, pure love, pupil dilation etc.) me and my two homies literally did not move from the couch we were sitting on. Like not once. Just sat there and let the waves of god roll over us as we talked. The conversation was definitely stimulated, though it was my two best friends so we would have talked anyways. It more made us talk about deep, personal things that may not have otherwise shared.
> 
> Point is: movement != magic


Very true and matches numerous experiences I had myself and observed.  But it would still be a truly sublime, magical, encompassing and amazing experience, those mellow, semi sleepy dreamy restful rolls.

Where obviously I can understand how the inferior MDMA discussed when the experience is mongey and sleepy etc the magic just isn't there and it is not a purely blissful comfortable and enjoyable time every single second as it used to be.


----------



## user666

thegreenhand said:


> My first roll (with undoubtedly good shit, 5 hrs, pure love, pupil dilation etc.) me and my two homies literally did not move from the couch we were sitting on.


What was the dose?

It strikes me that the differences are quantitative:
- low levels of norepinephrine (or blocked adrenergic receptors) prevent pupil dilation.
- medium levels of norepinephrine (or slightly blocked adrenergic receptors) are enough to cause pupil dilation but not enough to cause hyperkinesia (energy)
- high levels of norepinephrine (and unblocked adrenergic receptors) cause pupil dilation and hyperkinesia.

* Due to some polymorphic mutations a small fraction of population reacts differently to NE levels. This becomes evident in their pupilary response.


----------



## thegreenhand

user666 said:


> What was the dose?
> 
> It strikes me that the differences are quantitative:
> - low levels of norepinephrine (or blocked adrenergic receptors) prevent pupil dilation.
> - medium levels of norepinephrine (or slightly blocked adrenergic receptors) are enough to cause pupil dilation but not enough to cause hyperkinesia (energy)
> - high levels of norepinephrine (and unblocked adrenergic receptors) cause pupil dilation and hyperkinesia.
> 
> * Due to some polymorphic mutations a small fraction of population reacts differently to NE levels. This becomes evident in their pupilary response.


150 mg


----------



## Simosom

@psy997 
"Please give feedback on the form (same for both Meh and Magic)." 
Magic mdma effects are comming in waves. 
After the first peak, you might feel sober and think it's done. But this is just starting, the feeling will continue to come back in waves. 
With meh there are no waves, just one peak and after 2 hr you are done.


----------



## indigoaura

Simosom said:


> @psy997
> "Please give feedback on the form (same for both Meh and Magic)."
> Magic mdma effects are comming in waves.
> After the first peak, you might feel sober and think it's done. But this is just starting, the feeling will continue to come back in waves.
> With meh there are no waves, just one peak and after 2 hr you are done.



I had not thought about it, but this has been true for me. The Meh def has a short peak that ends quickly without an encore.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Hi @psy997 can I get image upload access on the wiki?  I wanted to do a page of my TLC experiments


----------



## psy997

ThreePointCircle said:


> Hi @psy997 can I get image upload access on the wiki?  I wanted to do a page of my TLC experiments



Hey @ThreePointCircle sure. Lemme see if I can figure it out real quick, otherwise I'll do it in a few hours after I'm back home.

Edit: its working on my end @ThreePointCircle


----------



## Negi

I feel like not enough attention is being paid to set and setting in this thread. For me, the "magic" and uniqueness of MDMA is more or less purely the pro-social and connectivity effects. I would say that 95% of the time during my best rolls is spent sitting down and talking with people, or writing for myself. Obviously these have taken place at smaller personal gatherings or on solo occasions. The MDMA doesn't give me a push to go and dance, but that's because I'd much rather stay talking with my friends, and there might not even be any danceable music being played. I'm also not getting any sexual/erotic effects, because I have platonic relationships with the friends I roll with.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

psy997 said:


> Hey @ThreePointCircle sure. Lemme see if I can figure it out real quick, otherwise I'll do it in a few hours after I'm back home.
> 
> Edit: its working on my end @ThreePointCircle


Thanks, yep works now.  Have started a page of TLC.  Haven't done wiki formatting before so feel free to tidy what I've done (e.g., don't know if images can go side by side but would look better on that page)


----------



## psy997

Negi said:


> I feel like not enough attention is being paid to set and setting in this thread. For me, the "magic" and uniqueness of MDMA is more or less purely the pro-social and connectivity effects. I would say that 95% of the time during my best rolls is spent sitting down and talking with people, or writing for myself. Obviously these have taken place at smaller personal gatherings or on solo occasions. The MDMA doesn't give me a push to go and dance, but that's because I'd much rather stay talking with my friends, and there might not even be any danceable music being played. I'm also not getting any sexual/erotic effects, because I have platonic relationships with the friends I roll with.



Even 40mg of good MDMA plugged has had me writhing on my bed in pleasure before. It's not uncommon for me to spend entire rolls alone moving in ecstasy to music or not. Meh stuff is completely different. I don't want to do anything except lie down with a blanket, and nothing sounds good. No music, no people, no movement, no movies/tv, nothing. It's a patently different experience that set and setting in no way explains.

Another "no" to set and setting is that, IME, I can be having an amazing time on a psychedelic, take Meh, and then go from a magical and attuned experience, to again, feeling completely and totally bleh.



ThreePointCircle said:


> Thanks, yep works now.  Have started a page of TLC.  Haven't done wiki formatting before so feel free to tidy what I've done (e.g., don't know if images can go side by side but would look better on that page)



I've also never done wikis before, so I'll do some research when I have time.


----------



## deficiT

@OP because world governments have taken your right to bodily autonomy. They've allowed impure, tainted, and inferior medicine to flood the world and made criminals out of people that need medicine and recreation.

Imo, it's really as simple as that. There's just no reliability on product and people don't test as much as they should.

Someone prolly said this a couple times 200 pages back, but it popped up again so here's my lukewarm take.


----------



## indigoaura

> I don't want to do anything except lie down with a blanket



Yeah...what is up with that? I definitely get the blanket thing too, partially because I'm cold, but it is also that sleepy vibe. Go away, and leave me alone with this blanket.



> Even 40mg of good MDMA plugged has had me writhing on my bed in pleasure before.



Yeah, I could pop 1/2 of a small pill and be totally overcome.

One of my friends was at my house-party once, and she ended up laying on a bed with men surrounding her in a circle. She was rolling all around in the sheets talking about life and flowers and poetry, and all the dudes were just captivated and stroking her hands and her feet while she talked. This was the kind of thing that just happened on ecstasy. "Writhing" is an apt description.

@Negi Set and setting has been discussed, but it does not fit all of these anecdotes, or the extreme difference between the effects. Obviously, if you are not with someone you are into, then you are not going to explore the sexual aspect, and if you are not playing music you are probably not going to dance, and if you don't have a pen and paper, you are probably not going to write. But, if you are the kind of person who usually dances, and you are standing in front of your favorite band, and they are playing your favorite song, you should probably be dancing rather than wishing you could be alone with a blanket. If you have never experienced it, there is probably very little I can say that will adequately explain it.

I have tried the Meh product at home with my partner, at home with close friends, at a friend's house party, at live music events for favorite bands, on vacation, at the beach, in the wilderness etc. etc. It makes no difference. What is the most bizarre to me is how I have been at events where I was super excited, so happy, so looking forward to the roll, ready to have an awesome time, and then taken the pill and just tanked. Everything about "set and setting" should have sent me flying high, and would have with a psychedelic. 

On the contrary, with the magic stuff, I remember dropping it in the middle of a fight with my then boyfriend back in the early 00s just to make a fight go away, and BOOM, instant happy and loving life. It could interrupt a horrible mood, awful day, or terrible "set and setting" with pure magic. Shit, that same boyfriend and I dropped ecstasy right after we broke up and before I moved out to hash everything out and talk peacefully in the midst of an ugly breakup. Ecstasy put you in a good place. That was kind of the point.


----------



## Simosom

@indigoaura 
"What is the most bizarre to me is how I have been at events where I was super excited, so happy, so looking forward to the roll, ready to have an awesome time, and then taken the pill and just tanked" 

This, 
I am planning party visit 6 months in advance, happy, looking forward to it,and then tanked


----------



## rainey

mars2025 said:


> I was thinking in terms of the purity of the synthesized MDMA crystal before it's pressed into the pill.  So, yes, presence of contaminants not dosage.
> 
> My reasoning was that at 99.9% MDMA is MDMA, has to be...  Shulgin mentions six synthesis routes in his MDMA paper including the two in PIKHAL.  He doesn't ever say that some particular route leads to some MDMA "flavour" that produces a superior roll.
> 
> So I initially assumed that to get magic you should simply try to get close to 99.9% pure MDMA crystal (OP's original magic powder seems to be like that).
> 
> And in the post you quoted I was adjusting that initial assumption of mine since both Rainey and you observed both magic and meh from street pills
> 
> 
> 
> That question was for Rainey whose answers so far have proved very insightful.  I'm glad I didn't miss his/her post and followed up with questions.  It wasn't to suggest that Rainey should or needs to try bumping dutch crystal.  But if Rainey happened to try it already, then his/her experience could provide further insight and data for this thread.  I don't have any pre-formed notion of what Rainey's answer here might be


 
Unfortunately I very rarely snort any drugs and definitely not crushed pills so I can't help on that one sorry.


----------



## rainey

AutoTripper said:


> Totally with you on this, as I have openly extolled here many times from my own experience.
> 
> It has bothered me that there is this misconception, that 250mg above is an extortionate and dangerous amount per se, it really depends on the user.
> 
> Of course I fully respect and support harm reduction and sensible dosing.
> 
> But I took these amounts of legit, old skool magic many times, and as long as it was pure clean MDMA, I honestly never felt in any sort of danger or health risk or even uncomfortable.
> 
> Like a 1/3 gram of banging MDMA one time. Sublime comeup. Totalky comfortable, just purely at one with all, my higher self.
> 
> And damn so happy haha!
> 
> A friend I visited with some weed, suddenly got nervous about his returning step father seeing me me and he said in exact words and total awe and amazement- "your eyes look MAD!" With a big emphasis on mad.
> 
> I was 100% okay and safe, only issue occured when I tried to drink some beer, it turned my tummy and I laid down concentrating to try and stop the vomit reflex so I didn't lose any MDMA.
> 
> I did vomit a little, felt fine the entire time though.
> 
> No more alcohol, I finished the gram overnight and had an amazing following day feeling great.
> 
> I took 0.5 grams MDMA as a dose, numerous times.
> And we (certainly I) took 3 good pills together, many times, 100-150mg.
> 
> I honestly never once felt in physical danger. Just rushing incredibly.
> 
> So it really depends on the individual. I just think it is a misconception that 250mg or above of is a dangerous dose fullstop.




I absolutely agree and I have explained this to myself like this "250mg + of old skool mdma is safe" but....."250 mg of modern mdma (because of what they have done to it) is very dangerous". Before 2009 I don't think there were any deaths at all as most of the ones reported in the media always turned out to be something else. But ever since they changed the recipe there have been LOTS of deaths. Everyone thinks its "stronger pills" to blame but I think its whats in the pills not the strength.


----------



## AutoTripper

rainey said:


> I absolutely agree and I have explained this to myself like this "250mg + of old skool mdma is safe" but....."250 mg of modern mdma (because of what they have done to it) is very dangerous". Before 2009 I don't think there were any deaths at all as most of the ones reported in the media always turned out to be something else. But ever since they changed the recipe there have been LOTS of deaths. Everyone thinks its "stronger pills" to blame but I think its whats in the pills not the strength.


Interesting and makes sense. I think I already subconsciously deduced/wondered exactly this.  This would go a long way to explaining the firmly founded, austere HR advice and emphasis regarding dosage.

Back then, we never considered a safety risk. If you took more, like 3 amazing 120-150mg pills, you would be floored rolling hard but loving it, and coming round to feel totally great with hours of brilliant experience left, more alert and so centred and at one.

But certainly not feeling shitty, down, miserable, unwell- in relation to dosage.


----------



## mars2025

Another bit of anecdotal evidence from 2016 when this thread just stared:

Vichsi: mdma of now is not the same as mdma of old

Borax: This trope has been bouncing around since probably 1995. Certainly as long as I can remember - you can find discussions on the matter in the first days of bluelight even. Every generation thinks MDMA is different somehow to when they were younger.

omgredditgotme: I dunno, it might be purely placebo but when I get my hands on a good pressed pill tested by edata or energy control to be only MDMA it feels exactly like I remember my first rolls feeling. Whereas even DNM powders are a little unreliable as far as effects go, despite testing clean. It's not just me either, heard the same thing regarding the same batches of MDMA from like 20+ people.


Are there 2 types of MDMA ? (Safrole vs PMK glycidate) from
      Drugs


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@mars2025 you are just trolling at this point aren't you?


----------



## Negi

rainey said:


> I absolutely agree and I have explained this to myself like this "250mg + of old skool mdma is safe" but....."250 mg of modern mdma (because of what they have done to it) is very dangerous". Before 2009 I don't think there were any deaths at all as most of the ones reported in the media always turned out to be something else. But ever since they changed the recipe there have been LOTS of deaths. Everyone thinks its "stronger pills" to blame but I think its whats in the pills not the strength.



Were 14-15 year olds taking 250mg+ of MDMA for their first times back in the day? If you look at the deaths it's almost always teenagers, and usually young female ones (the only death from a single high strength pill that I can find was a 14 year old girl taking a 300mg pill). To me it looks like the UK bingeing culture is to blame for the deaths, as teenagers are introduced to MDMA with extremely heavy doses by peers with sky-high tolerances.


----------



## DopeM

I just had a fantastic roll on some crystals.  I can't speak to the production method but I've never had bad comedowns from mdma ever in 20 years.


----------



## SunriseChampion

DopeM said:


> I can't speak to the production method but I've never had bad comedowns from mdma ever in 20 years.



I personally don't reckon there is a difference between production methods in terms of negative come down as I've also never had a negative come down with both great and shit MDMA.


----------



## draculic acid69

Ok not sure if this has been bought up yet or not but a while ago I seen somewhere selling either fmoc mdma or tboc mdma. this fmoc or tboc is a group that attaches to the amine usually as a protecting group but in this case as a masking group the same way pmk glycidate is just masked pmk. I'm wondering if this is being sold as mdma without removing the tboc or fmoc group as it was
(im sure) intended to be. im not sure if this would hydrolyze, acidify or be enzymatically changed in the stomach or liver back to mdma or possibly into mehmdma. One would think that it would show up on on gcms but gcms has so far in my opinion been sub par and has only been used for i.d.ing mdma and not other differences.
Anyway this is one more thing that needs to be ruled in or out as a cause of meh.


----------



## draculic acid69

Until new analytical info or more detailed tests are done on meh product I don't think any further progress can or will be made.
Anymore posts about doses or setting or how it's different to the good old days, tolerance & loss of magic are just clutter in an already cluttered filing cabinet and isn't helping.we have gathered all the necessary information to make forward progress
on the situation and the ONLY way forward is analytical. Any non chemistry or analytical speculation is no longer useful as it's already covered. firstly we need to start organising phisical analysis of meh to rule out possible theories and as some ppl have started working on that were on our way. I think the next best way to start is the racemic issue. I think this can be ruled in or out using an instrument called a polarimeter.if anyone has experience with one please chime in.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

draculic acid69 said:


> Until new analytical info or more detailed tests are done on meh product I don't think any further progress can or will be made.
> Anymore posts about doses or setting or how it's different to the good old days, tolerance & loss of magic are just clutter in an already cluttered filing cabinet and isn't helping.we have gathered all the necessary information to make forward progress
> on the situation and the ONLY way forward is analytical. Any non chemistry or analytical speculation is no longer useful as it's already covered. firstly we need to start organising phisical analysis of meh to rule out possible theories and as some ppl have started working on that were on our way. I think the next best way to start is the racemic issue. I think this can be ruled in or out using an instrument called a polarimeter.if anyone has experience with one please chime in.



I can see your point, but the title of this thread lends itself to discussion of an anecdotal and subjective nature.

How about we start a new thread over in NPD titled 'Qualitative/quantitative analysis of MDMA' or similar and transfer some of the posts from here to get it started? if we're going to go down the pure science route I think it would be more suited over there.


----------



## psy997

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> How about we start a new thread over in NPD titled 'Qualitative/quantitative analysis of MDMA' or similar and transfer some of the posts from here to get it started? if we're going to go down the pure science route I think it would be more suited over there



The wiki. We should be moving serious discussion to mdma.noosworx.com


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## indigoaura

Soon, I will have TIC data from GCMS analysis on three different meh samples. My hands have been tied because of social distancing and an inability to take samples to the post office. Once I have that TIC data, I will need help in analyzing it. 

IEC is re-testing the sample I sent them in November, because they never sent me the appropriate results. They are going to look at it in more detail, specifically for byproducts. Interestingly, their top analyst told me they have been getting a lot of complaints that MDMA is "not the same" as it used to be. 

@psy997 Is it possible to have a section of the WIKI where GCMS data can be posted and people can analyze/comment?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> Soon, I will have TIC data from GCMS analysis on three different meh samples. My hands have been tied because of social distancing and an inability to take samples to the post office. Once I have that TIC data, I will need help in analyzing it.
> 
> IEC is re-testing the sample I sent them in November, because they never sent me the appropriate results. They are going to look at it in more detail, specifically for byproducts. Interestingly, their top analyst told me they have been getting a lot of complaints that MDMA is "not the same" as it used to be.
> 
> @psy997 Is it possible to have a section of the WIKI where GCMS data can be posted and people can analyze/comment?


Great update, fingers crossed.  And adding a page to the wiki is straightforward so not a problem (I added the tlc page)


----------



## AutoTripper

Negi said:


> Were 14-15 year olds taking 250mg+ of MDMA for their first times back in the day? If you look at the deaths it's almost always teenagers, and usually young female ones (the only death from a single high strength pill that I can find was a 14 year old girl taking a 300mg pill). To me it looks like the UK bingeing culture is to blame for the deaths, as teenagers are introduced to MDMA with extremely heavy doses by peers with sky-high tolerances.


Yes but this is current, modern MDMA, and I have sort of picked up on the assertion that higher doses of MDMA currently, particularly strongly suspected MehDma, carry more negative side effects.

And as I and @rainey were loosely conjecting (cool word I like that I think it's validl, may be more actually dangerous above say 250mg.

This is all conjecture of course. But the many deaths reported recent years all over, indeed involved mostly young females. I don't believe there was ever the same scale of reported deaths back then.

And besides, the current dosages are much higher, so people are more likely to take whole, 250-300mg pills, than the average young female user was to double drop 2 120-150 mg pills decades back.


----------



## indigoaura

From my personal experience, all I know is that I used to be a short and skinny teen female, who would sometimes pop 5 pills in a night, and I never got sick afterwards. Now, I weigh more than I did then, and there is a very clear line that I cannot go over without dealing with illness the following week. Maybe it is as simple as age and physical changes, but it definitely seems like there is a contaminant present that only becomes a problem once it crosses a certain dosage threshold. 

Analytical testing will reveal what is going on. I have confidence in that.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> From my personal experience, all I know is that I used to be a short and skinny teen female, who would sometimes pop 5 pills in a night, and I never got sick afterwards. Now, I weigh more than I did then, and there is a very clear line that I cannot go over without dealing with illness the following week. Maybe it is as simple as age and physical changes, but it definitely seems like there is a contaminant present that only becomes a problem once it crosses a certain dosage threshold.
> 
> Analytical testing will reveal what is going on. I have confidence in that.


Well, the ancient addage holds true- the medicine/poison is in the dose.


----------



## draculic acid69

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I can see your point, but the title of this thread lends itself to discussion of an anecdotal and subjective nature.
> 
> How about we start a new thread over in NPD titled 'Qualitative/quantitative analysis of MDMA' or similar and transfer some of the posts from here to get it started? if we're going to go down the pure science route I think it would be more suited over there.


Thats a good idea.and it's kind of necessary.this thread grows about a page or two a day and 95%of it is useless talking in circles


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## Negi

AutoTripper said:


> And besides, the current dosages are much higher, so people are more likely to take whole, 250-300mg pills, than the average young female user was to double drop 2 120-150 mg pills decades back.



I would certainly not deny that dosages in pills are currently much higher in the past, but as articles I have linked further back in the thread speculated that seems to be the result of a decrease in the price of wholesale MDMA and marketing attempts by the pill manufacturers rather than as a result of changes in the MDMA composition (as many people in this thread have indicated that "mehDMA" is crap at any dosage).



indigoaura said:


> From my personal experience, all I know is that I used to be a short and skinny teen female, who would sometimes pop 5 pills in a night, and I never got sick afterwards.



Did you start off by taking 5 pills though (and all at the same time), or did you work up to it as a result of tolerance to the effects of MDMA? The stories I have found of teenage MDMA deaths have often occurred when teenagers are first introduced to the drug at extremely heavy doses (due to high strength pills or friends/dealers who need extremely doses due to tolerance/abuse).

Dosage timing also seems to be important. New/first time users are more likely to be confused and take as a single dose the total amount that a more experienced user would spread out over a night (as repeated redoses).


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## indigoaura

@Negi I only did the 5 pills thing maybe 3 times total in my life. Usually, I was a 1-3 pills user. I had been experimenting with E for at least a year before I tried taking that many in one evening.


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## indigoaura

I am having a hard time loading the wiki on Tor. It worked yesterday, but is not working today. Any ideas, @psy997?


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> I am having a hard time loading the wiki on Tor. It worked yesterday, but is not working today. Any ideas, @psy997?



Unfortunately, no. Maybe Google Tor issues with MediaWiki?


----------



## Wilson Wilson

Yesterday I had a lovely sesh on some powder I found from about 5 or so years ago. Light beige coloured (almost white), not very strong smelling, but very high quality MDMA. Proper powerful roll, it's one that actually felt "therapeutic" in that I proper opened up in ways I never normally can, and spoke about some issues in life (family relations etc) in an understanding way and felt empathy for the other person's POV and history etc... it felt literally like MDMA assisted therapy, absolutely amazing experience, still feeling an afterglow from it today and really hope it sticks with me.

The friend I rolled with said she felt like she saw a side of me she never seen before and felt like she knew me a lot better as a person. Similarly she opened up about some dark stuff from her past and we talked it out and I was very understanding even though it was tricky stuff we were on about. Hopefully I helped her feel better about herself and mistakes she's made. She was on half an M&M pill.

Not a single doubt this was proper magic. The experience was great. Part of this was set and setting of course. First time out and socialising in a long while due to the lockdown and we were in a lovely sunny park. But this was still some magical experience.

We both felt pretty energetic too. Not "stimmed" just energetic, like we wanted to walk around and talk a lot, but then we ended up finding walking to be, not tiring exactly, but a bit difficult on a roll, so we kept sitting down again.

We were both also on 1.2g phenibut which certainly synergised with the MD and enhanced the experience, particularly making us more chatty and less likely to be anxious (rolling in public tends to cause anxiety obvs). But the MD was just downright fucking brilliant. 

Hard to put it into words, it was just special. 

Guess the point I'm making is once again I feel no reason to believe the stuff we're getting is not "MagicDMA." It honestly felt to me like we could have gone deeper and it could have been a full on life changing experience if we went in with that intention. As it was we went in just wanting to have a fun sesh and came out with that deep shit.


----------



## user666

Wilson Wilson said:


> Not a single doubt this was proper magic. The experience was great. Part of this was set and setting of course. First time out and socialising in a long while due to the lockdown and we were in a lovely sunny park. But this was still some magical experience.


Did you find the sunny park uncomfortable on MDMA ?


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Until new analytical info or more detailed tests are done on meh product I don't think any further progress can or will be made.
> Anymore posts about doses or setting or how it's different to the good old days, tolerance & loss of magic are just clutter in an already cluttered filing cabinet and isn't helping.we have gathered all the necessary information to make forward progress


I agree that relating subjective info does not help much, but relaying objective info (mydriasis, trismus, bp, glucose, antidiuresis, sodium, etc...) helps the pros to take it seriously ...and do proper chem analysis then.


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## Wilson Wilson

user666 said:


> Did you find the sunny park uncomfortable on MDMA ?



Not at all. In fact we both found ourselves wanting to get into the sun. It felt weird because obviously we had high body temps and were probably sweating (I definitely smelt the sweat when I got home lol) but we didn't actually feel unpleasantly hot. Just nice and warm and comfortable. I only felt uncomfortable when it started to get late and it got cold, but by that point we were coming down too.


----------



## user666

Wilson Wilson said:


> Not at all. In fact we both found ourselves wanting to get into the sun.


I find bright lights very uncomfortable when my pupils are fully dilated, don't you ?


----------



## Wilson Wilson

user666 said:


> I find bright lights very uncomfortable when my pupils are fully dilated, don't you ?



Oh we weren't looking up at the sun, we were either looking at each other or more often I was staring at the grass and running my hands through it. My pupils were very dilated, but then even under normal circumstances I don't stare directly into the sun haha.


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## indigoaura

One thing I think would help this thread a lot would be if everyone took people's anecdotes seriously and stopped assuming that what is true for one person is true for someone else. I don't doubt the magical reports of MDMA, and have never doubted that proper MDMA is out there. Those fortunate enough to have good connections should count themselves as lucky. Those who are not that fortunate should be happy for the magic rollers and be hopeful that good times are ahead. We would save a lot of time and pointless debate if we just accepted where other people are coming from.

@Wilson Wilson Sounds like you had an amazing experience. I recall those moments of opening up and accessing a vulnerable but safe place. My ex (who was pretty closeted) was once able to talk about some early homosexual experiences that he had never talked about before, and admit to some lies he had told me throughout our relationship. That was a characteristic of the MDMA I used to have access to. You could talk and wanted to talk. MDMA sessions used to be a place where you could bring up all of those topics that were too awkward to hash out under normal circumstances. That's one of the reasons why the total inability to talk and desire for others to stop talking seems so out of place with the Meh product I have had in recent years. Can you imagine someone opening up and talking to you and your mental reaction is just "shut up, please"?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

So I applied marquis, froedhe and ehrlich (what I had handy) to some TLC plates.  See results here: https://mdma.noosworx.com/index.php?title=Thin_Layer_Chromatography

I didn't find any more spots but it was interesting to see how much more vibrant the reactions were with the spots after TLC, compared to plated by non-TLC samples or reactions with the original crystal.  Marquis was very blue, and the purple colour of the froedhe reactions would have me id'ing it more as aspirin that mdma.

If anyone has magic vs meh samples, it would be interesting to see the reagent tests after TLC.  Unfortunately I only have meh samples.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

indigoaura said:


> One thing I think would help this thread a lot would be if everyone took people's anecdotes seriously and stopped assuming that what is true for one person is true for someone else. I don't doubt the magical reports of MDMA, and have never doubted that proper MDMA is out there. Those fortunate enough to have good connections should count themselves as lucky. Those who are not that fortunate should be happy for the magic rollers and be hopeful that good times are ahead. We would save a lot of time and pointless debate if we just accepted where other people are coming from.



Exactly, thank you for saying this. I think there is meh and magic both out there right now. People who are just saying "you only think it's good because you never tried the old stuff" are just sounding arrogant to me, especially when in the same breath they often say "I can still get the old stuff so I know the difference." Okay so if you can still get it why do you think I can't?

In fact during that roll yesterday me and my friend both took some powder we found lying around in our respective stashes, mine turned out to be absolute magic whereas she she felt very much meh from hers. Luckily I did bring that half a pill with me just in case any of the powder turned out to be meh, and since I didn't need it I gave it to her and she came up on my level as soon as the pill hit.



indigoaura said:


> @Wilson Wilson Sounds like you had an amazing experience. I recall those moments of opening up and accessing a vulnerable but safe place. My ex (who was pretty closeted) was once able to talk about some early homosexual experiences that he had never talked about before, and admit to some lies he had told me throughout our relationship. That was a characteristic of the MDMA I used to have access to. You could talk and wanted to talk. MDMA sessions used to be a place where you could bring up all of those topics that were too awkward to hash out under normal circumstances. That's one of the reasons why the total inability to talk and desire for others to stop talking seems so out of place with the Meh product I have had in recent years. Can you imagine someone opening up and talking to you and your mental reaction is just "shut up, please"?



You just described the experience perfectly man, that's exactly what it was. I am a very closed off person for various reasons, which I was able to just openly explain in that moment (among many other things) without feeling embarrassed or awkward or anything, it just felt natural to speak from the heart. This is so different to how I normally am, where I have a hard time even processing emotion let alone expressing it, like I literally cannot even find the words, and I have all these psychological defence mechanisms which just disappear, that in the moment I just feel so free and able to be myself and it really sticks with me. It really shows me why they used this stuff for therapy and are running trials to do so again. 

And yeah if you are both on good stuff that's when it really shines. It would feel horrible if you opened up with all this stuff but the other person just didn't care. This is why I make sure whenever I roll with someone I get the stash in, because I know my stuff is good.

Something else I thought was pretty special about that roll is I was given oxy for the comedown and it definitely helped bring me down smoothly, especially with the physical symptoms I tend to get at the tail end of a strong roll (lots of physical discomfort), but it also made me realise just how meh oxy is as far as drugs go. I mean I was just rolling all day, opening up as a person, feeling real close to someone, but at the same time we had a laugh and told jokes and just had fun, it was crazy how it was so fun yet so deep, a chill day out where you can bring up difficult issues without any of the emotional toll you'd normally get, and how it was mixed in with just having a great time, a seriously magic experience.

Then as the oxy was coming up I just began stumbling about, got lost for a bit, finally got home, laid down in bed and nodded out for a couple hours, tried and failed to get Rick and Morty playing on my TV, dropped my phone on my face a few times in the process, and eventually gave up and just fell asleep.

I can't lie and say the oxy didn't feel good. It did. But doing both in the same day, I couldn't help but compare those two experiences and realise just how poorly the oxy compares. The MDMA actually genuinely helped me and a friend work through shit in our lives and at the same time have an amazing day together. Like a day out with a close friend also being a therapy session but all good vibes. The oxy, well, had me feeling super drugged out and stumbling around like a pisshead before just falling asleep after failing to operate my phone.

I bring this up because I used to be hooked on oxy. And yet this is the second time I've had a dose since quitting and both times have just reinforced that I made the right decision to quit it. The first time, in fact, I was given a strip of 80's for free with another deal, tried one, and straight up just gave the rest away. This time I had just one half for the comedown, but was not fiending for more, in fact I was glad I didn't spend money on it. 

During the time since quitting oxy I've used LSD, MDMA, ketamine, and weed instead because I figured I needed to get my head straight instead of trying to run from my demons. I honestly think it's succeeded and helped to change me for the better. It's not the only factor, other things also happened in my life that I think made me no longer feel such a deep urge to escape reality, but I think those experiences with LSD, MDMA, and ketamine helped me see things differently and put me on that good path in life in the first place. And the weed helps to replace opiates as my go to chill out drug for when I do wanna just space out.

Basically I feel like I have a lot to thank the whole "mind exploring" class of drugs for, they helped put me on a better path from being self-destructive trying to hide from myself. 

And see you can tell I'm on an afterglow cuz look how real and open I'm still being.


----------



## psy997

Wilson Wilson said:


> I gave it to her and she came up on my level as soon as the pill hit.



This is a really good point of information. Being able to reach a magic level experience after having taken meh is a possible detractor from the idea of meh as resultant of negatively psychoactive impurities, or a data point about impurities if Magic is somehow able to overpower the effects of a present negative substance.


----------



## indigoaura

psy997 said:


> This is a really good point of information. Being able to reach a magic level experience after having taken meh is a possible detractor from the idea of meh as resultant of negatively psychoactive impurities, or a data point about impurities if Magic is somehow able to overpower the effects of a present negative substance.



That is a really good point that I had not thought about before. 

The only time I encountered something that felt like "meh" back when I was doing pills was with these pills:








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #694 - Iceburg, 694
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				




Yes, I sent in that sample, so I know it is the same thing. 

I remember taking two of them, and it was just bleh. Lethargic. Not peaking. 

The boyfriend and I both felt the same way. We had some other pills left from a previous experience that were good, and we took those and came up just fine, like normal.

That does seem to discredit the idea that receptors are being blocked with a contaminant, because if that was the case, then the second pill would not work.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

psy997 said:


> This is a really good point of information. Being able to reach a magic level experience after having taken meh is a possible detractor from the idea of meh as resultant of negatively psychoactive impurities, or a data point about impurities if Magic is somehow able to overpower the effects of a present negative substance.



Yeah this is correct I think. I do not believe meh MDMA "blocks the receptors" and have seen no evidence of this at all. If anything a redose of good stuff kicks in much more quickly than any initial dose of MDMA would, which suggests the opposite - that some MDMA is active in the brain, it's just not doing its full job correctly. Perhaps this suggests an imbalance of isomers could be the cause of poor quality synths.

However as another data point I should mention that I know for a fact my friend uses shady dealers and often gets cut drugs. Recently she got mephedrone and ketamine she knows ain't right because I've shared my DNM stuff with her and she now knows what quality shit should feel like. Likewise my MDMA all comes from the DNMs too and I'm the type to look up who has the best gear when I order. It's very common that if I share a line of any given drug with a mate they'll be amazed at the quality. I literally warn them at this point, this is probably much stronger than what you're used to, do a smaller dose to start. Only thing that seems to be consistently good quality on the streets right now is weed. Everything else, I go darknet. 

Since her MDMA came as a powder it could easily just have an inert cut in it resulting in low purity. So the pill provided a full dose hence a full effect.

I'm thinking specifically about the situation with my friend yesterday here though. I don't think that's the full story for all meh MDMA especially not lab tested pills, but it is a possible factor in this specific instance.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> That does seem to discredit the idea that receptors are being blocked with a contaminant, because if that was the case, then the second pill would not work.



Unless the contaminant can be knocked off in some way, but then why would taking more MehDMA not work... Hmm.



Wilson Wilson said:


> Yeah this is correct I think. I do not believe meh MDMA "blocks the receptors" and have seen no evidence of this at all. If anything a redose of good stuff kicks in much more quickly than any initial dose of MDMA would, which suggests the opposite - that some MDMA is active in the brain, it's just not doing its full job correctly. Perhaps this suggests an imbalance of isomers could be the cause of poor quality synths.



The big reason I've been leaning towards active impurities is that MehDMA taken during a great psychedelic experience will lead to a meh experience. That points towards negative active impurities vs MagicDMA having positive active impurities, since one would imagine that a psychedelic wouldn't be ruined by "plain" MDMA, especially given MDMA having been around for 20-30 years before MehDMA came along in a big way.

I don't have the mental capacity right now to deduce further, unfortunately.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

psy997 said:


> The big reason I've been leaning towards active impurities is that MehDMA taken during a great psychedelic experience will lead to a meh experience. That points towards negative active impurities vs MagicDMA having positive active impurities, since one would imagine that a psychedelic wouldn't be ruined by "plain" MDMA, especially given MDMA having been around for 20-30 years before MehDMA came along in a big way.
> 
> I don't have the mental capacity right now to deduce further, unfortunately.



Yeah this would line up with the isomer theory as well. I don't know how well researched MDMA's isomers are, but any drug will have a left and right isomer. In amphetamine for example, the psychoactive properties come entirely from the dextro isomer, which is why dexamphetamine is more potent than mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall) which contain both D-amph and L-amph. If you have just L-amph you'd only get the physical effects (fast heart rate etc) and no high at all. Just the D-amph and you get less of the physical effects but the full psychoactive effect. 

MDMA is a substituted amphetamine so it's not exactly crazy to theorise it works in a similar way. If one isomer is responsible for all or most of the desirable psychoactive properties, and a bad synth produces too much of the shitty isomer, you will get MehDMA. A balanced synth may well be the more traditional "old school" stuff while a synth leaning towards only the most powerful isomer would have the most potency but not _necessarily_ the most magic - although if MDMA is similar enough to regular amphetamine, in theory the active isomer would be cleaner and have fewer side effects, but again I have no idea if this is the case and am just speculating.

This might also explain why people are saying you could take higher doses of the older stuff and it'd cause less toxicity. If this is indeed true, it makes sense that you had balanced isomers, whereas the new stuff might be produced so you only get the strong psychoactive isomer, making it more potent per milligram similarly to Dexedrine vs. Adderall.

I'd have to do some research into how much is even known about MDMA's isomers to know how much merit this theory has, but isomers make a big difference for many many drugs so it is very plausible especially when you're talking about black market lab synths.


----------



## user666

psy997 said:


> I don't have the mental capacity right now to deduce further, unfortunately.


Maybe your brain needs feeding.
Here is some food for thought:  A polydrug user has built up a tolerance to one drug, that is a contaminant of another.
For example, if an opiate junkie takes MDMA slightly contaminated with fentanyl, he might not even feel the fentanyl, while a virgin user will.  It is a scenario that has not been discussed here yet.


----------



## Negi

Wilson Wilson said:


> Since her MDMA came as a powder it could easily just have an inert cut in it resulting in low purity. So the pill provided a full dose hence a full effect.


You should grab a sample from her and send it in to be tested. If you are in the UK wedinos will do it for free.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Maybe your brain needs feeding.
> Here is some food for thought:  A polydrug user has built up a tolerance to one drug, that is a contaminant of another.
> For example, if an opiate junkie takes MDMA slightly contaminated with fentanyl, he might not even feel the fentanyl, while a virgin user will.  It is a scenario that has not been discussed here yet.



I don't get your implication here. Would you explain in a more direct fashion?

Are you saying there is a contaminant that someone like me might be sensitive to and feel more than another user who may have a tolerance to it?


----------



## indigoaura

@Wilson Wilson We have discussed the isomer theory extensively. The consensus among the chemistry minded people was pretty unanimous that it would be very difficult to produce L or R isomer MDMA unless it was on purpose, and doing so would not be cost effective.


----------



## psy997

user666 said:


> Maybe your brain needs feeding.
> Here is some food for thought:  A polydrug user has built up a tolerance to one drug, that is a contaminant of another.
> For example, if an opiate junkie takes MDMA slightly contaminated with fentanyl, he might not even feel the fentanyl, while a virgin user will.  It is a scenario that has not been discussed here yet.





indigoaura said:


> I don't get your implication here. Would you explain in a more direct fashion?
> 
> Are you saying there is a contaminant that someone like me might be sensitive to and feel more than another user who may have a tolerance to it?



Again, not much capacity for logic right now so I'm not following completely.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

Negi said:


> You should grab a sample from her and send it in to be tested. If you are in the UK wedinos will do it for free.



I've been telling her to send her dodgy drugs off to WEDINOS for a while, printed out the forms and everything, but she ain't got around to it yet. She's always like "I need to send this off actually, curious what's in it..." but she hasn't done it.

Some point in the future I'll fill the forms in and post them off myself tbh.



indigoaura said:


> @Wilson Wilson We have discussed the isomer theory extensively. The consensus among the chemistry minded people was pretty unanimous that it would be very difficult to produce L or R isomer MDMA unless it was on purpose, and doing so would not be cost effective.



I figured isomers would have been discussed already given it's an obvious theory. Makes sense about it not being cost effective.


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## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @Wilson Wilson We have discussed the isomer theory extensively. The consensus among the chemistry minded people was pretty unanimous that it would be very difficult to produce L or R isomer MDMA unless it was on purpose, and doing so would not be cost effective.


Its a possibility with some synthesis
such as the route to make mdmethcathinone with L,alanine
produces pure levo product.reducing the L mdmcathinone to an alcohol then to the amphetamine would result in possibly pure levo product.
Or if the lithium ammonia method is used in the alcohol to amphetamine reduction pure Dextro mdma would be the result


----------



## draculic acid69

If u think about it the Chinese RC factories were already setup to pump out mdcathinones in bulk so it's not a stretch to say they might use this mdcathinone to mdamphetamine route.the fact they can pump out kilos of cathinones for shit all means costwise it's very feasible to do it this way.


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## draculic acid69

Wilson Wilson said:


> Yeah this would line up with the isomer theory as well. I don't know how well researched MDMA's isomers are, but any drug will have a left and right isomer. In amphetamine for example, the psychoactive properties come entirely from the dextro isomer, which is why dexamphetamine is more potent than mixed amphetamine salts (Adderall) which contain both D-amph and L-amph. If you have just L-amph you'd only get the physical effects (fast heart rate etc) and no high at all. Just the D-amph and you get less of the physical effects but the full psychoactive effect.
> 
> MDMA is a substituted amphetamine so it's not exactly crazy to theorise it works in a similar way. If one isomer is responsible for all or most of the desirable psychoactive properties, and a bad synth produces too much of the shitty isomer, you will get MehDMA. A balanced synth may well be the more traditional "old school" stuff while a synth leaning towards only the most powerful isomer would have the most potency but not _necessarily_ the most magic - although if MDMA is similar enough to regular amphetamine, in theory the active isomer would be cleaner and have fewer side effects, but again I have no idea if this is the case and am just speculating.
> 
> This might also explain why people are saying you could take higher doses of the older stuff and it'd cause less toxicity. If this is indeed true, it makes sense that you had balanced isomers, whereas the new stuff might be produced so you only get the strong psychoactive isomer, making it more potent per milligram similarly to Dexedrine vs. Adderall.
> 
> I'd have to do some research into how much is even known about MDMA's isomers to know how much merit this theory has, but isomers make a big difference for many many drugs so it is very plausible especially when you're talking about black market lab synths.


Look at the pihkal entry's on mdma.it goes into detail about the effect of the seperate isomers.u need both isomers to get the full mdma effect.either one by themselves is nothing special at all apparently.also
this problem can be ruled in or out using a polarimeter to see if meh is racemic or not.someone on here mentioned using one to see if some tan mdpv they had was racemic and it was.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

draculic acid69 said:


> Look at the pihkal entry's on mdma.it goes into detail about the effect of the seperate isomers.u need both isomers to get the full mdma effect.either one by themselves is nothing special at all apparently.also
> this problem can be ruled in or out using a polarimeter to see if meh is racemic or not.someone on here mentioned using one to see if some tan mdpv they had was racemic and it was.



This is interesting. If I'm reading your comments right it actually wouldn't be cost prohibitive to produce one isomer, it'd just require a slight change in synthesis? And if Chinese labs used to knocking out RCs use the same precursors for MDMA they could end up doing exactly that?

If MDMA needs to be racemic to get the full effect, and a non-racemic mixture can be made with poor synthesis, this would make a viable explanation for MehDMA.

I have a copy of PiHKAL somewhere, will have to read up on it later.


----------



## draculic acid69

I remember reading a news article about how the cops in China busted in on a crew that had just synthesized 50kilos of meth.what the crew didn't realize was they'd made 50 kilos of L,meth. So the chance of a crew 
pumping out shitty non racemic product and not knowing or caring
is a possibility.


----------



## draculic acid69

Wilson Wilson said:


> This is interesting. If I'm reading your comments right it actually wouldn't be cost prohibitive to produce one isomer, it'd just require a slight change in synthesis? And if Chinese labs used to knocking out RCs use the same precursors for MDMA they could end up doing exactly that?
> 
> If MDMA needs to be racemic to get the full effect, and a non-racemic mixture can be made with poor synthesis, this would make a viable explanation for MehDMA.
> 
> I have a copy of PiHKAL somewhere, will have to read up on it later.


Correct


----------



## draculic acid69

A polarimeter examination of meh samples would answer the racemic isomer question. If anyone is sending off samples for testing perhaps they could also ask the testing facility to test for racemicness or if it's an enantiomerically pure product.i dont know of any testing facilities apart from the ones mentioned in this thread so if anyone knows how to contact them and ask if they can test for isomers that would help alot.


----------



## draculic acid69

I just had a look at international energy controls website and seen they can't tell the difference between 2fluro,3fluro
or 4fluro amphetamines so it's possible that they can't tell 2,3mdma from 3,4mdma or other isomers but this is just me speculating. I didn't see that they can test for isomers anywhere or find a way to contact them to ask.


----------



## Wilson Wilson

draculic acid69 said:


> A polarimeter examination of meh samples would answer the racemic isomer question. If anyone is sending off samples for testing perhaps they could also ask the testing facility to test for racemicness or if it's an enantiomerically pure product.i dont know of any testing facilities apart from the ones mentioned in this thread so if anyone knows how to contact them and ask if they can test for isomers that would help alot.



I think Energy Control can test for isomers.


----------



## draculic acid69

H


Wilson Wilson said:


> I think Energy Control can test for isomers.


Have they been doing this?
Will they do this for future meh samples?
Can they test for the stereo isomers? (Dextro and levo)
Can they test for the positional isomers? 
(2,3mdma or mdisopropylbenzylamine
or the 1methylamino product)


----------



## Wilson Wilson

draculic acid69 said:


> H
> 
> Have they been doing this?
> Will they do this for future meh samples?
> Can they test for the stereo isomers? (Dextro and levo)
> Can they test for the positional isomers?
> (2,3mdma or mdisopropylbenzylamine
> or the 1methylamino product)



You'd have to ask them, they do have an email and are usually pretty good at discussing the details of their lab capabilities. I just remember them testing isomers for some other drugs in the past, I think ketamine was one. 

Not sure if the equipment and process for doing the same for MDMA would be different.

WEDINOS unfortunately do not distinguish between isomers.


----------



## draculic acid69

Wilson Wilson said:


> You'd have to ask them, they do have an email and are usually pretty good at discussing the details of their lab capabilities. I just remember them testing isomers for some other drugs in the past, I think ketamine was one.
> 
> Not sure if the equipment and process for doing the same for MDMA would be different.
> 
> WEDINOS unfortunately do not distinguish between isomers.


Couldn't find an email address on iec's website.ill have another look tomorrow


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Are you saying there is a contaminant that someone like me might be sensitive to and feel more than another user who may have a tolerance to it?


Yes, or the other way around .
But you do not take other drugs so, it would not apply to you.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> A polarimeter examination of meh samples would answer the racemic isomer question.


I can see the eBay sells polarimeters for ~$300 and they are easy to use.
You just have to make sure that the set contains a long polarimeter tube and the lamp.


----------



## indigoaura

When I emailed International Energy Control before, they told me they do not have the capacity to test for isomers in MDMA. Drugs Data also do not have that capacity. 

I would spend $300 to eliminate this as a consideration if the process is relatively easy. I see a huge range of prices and styles on ebay with many of the cheaper ones coming from China. I don't really want to order anything from China right now, but I will look around and see if I can find any locally.



> But you do not take other drugs so, it would not apply to you.


 I take other hallucinogens (2CB, LSD, Mushrooms), but I don't drink or use opiates/cocaine.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I would spend $300 to eliminate this as a consideration if the process is relatively easy.


I will help you with $100 worth of bitcoin if you decide to do it.



indigoaura said:


> I take other hallucinogens (2CB, LSD, Mushrooms), but I don't drink or use opiates/cocaine.


I'd expect only 2CB to have interactions.
If the MDMA was contaminated with a small amount of a potent opiate, then it would be virtually undetectable but an MDMA-only user would feel it, e.g. opiates shrink pupils and make people sleepy.
However an opiate user would not react to the contaminant because he'd have had built up a tolerance to it.

I bet you could take 100mg of pure Magic MDMA, add a 1mcg of a powerful opiate to it and convert it into Meh MDMA that would pass most of the lab tests.
Can the reverse be performed, e.g. taking Meh MDMA with a dose of an anti-opioid agent, such as Narcan ?  I do not know.
Does a chemical exist that would inactivate opioids in-vitro, without destroying the MDMA and leaving toxic stuff behind ?  I do not know.

A  question for *Sekio* or *Vector* or other chem Pros:
How would you separate or selectively inactivate Fentanyl Hydrochloride + MDMA Hydrochloride ?  ...without running a column.


----------



## indigoaura

Is this the right kind of polarimeter? 





						Lab Instrument Manual Disc Polarimeter with Sodium Lamp +/- 180° Manual Polarimeter Research Industry Type Disk Polarimeter 100mm and 200mm Polarimeter Tube Manual Polarimeter Tester - - Amazon.com
					

Lab Instrument Manual Disc Polarimeter with Sodium Lamp +/- 180° Manual Polarimeter Research Industry Type Disk Polarimeter 100mm and 200mm Polarimeter Tube Manual Polarimeter Tester - - Amazon.com



					www.amazon.com


----------



## vecktor

draculic acid69 said:


> Its a possibility with some synthesis
> such as the route to make mdmethcathinone with L,alanine
> produces pure levo product.reducing the L mdmcathinone to an alcohol then to the amphetamine would result in possibly pure levo product.
> Or if the lithium ammonia method is used in the alcohol to amphetamine reduction pure Dextro mdma would be the result



I very much doubt it.

The commercial route to methylone (mdmethcathinone) was via the alpha bromoketone and reaction with methylamine, the cathinone product is racemic, therefore MDMA by reduction of commercial methylone is also going to be racemic.

The Alanine, MD Benzene, Friedel Crafts acylation route requires at least 5 steps to methylone and some more to MDMA. If the alcohol is an intermediate then add in an extra step or two there too. It is never going to be used commercially, not ever.   Racemic Alanine is way cheaper than L-Alanine which makes the chiral theory even more unlikely.
L-Alanine is dextrorotatory, therefore L-Alanine = d-Alanine = (S)-(+)-Alanine
Look at the absolute configuration of the enantiomers of MDMA and Alanine, L alanine would always give eventually S-MDMA. It really doesn't matter at all what type of reduction is carried out,  the configuration at the 2 position is locked.  L-Alanine is (2S)-2-aminopropanoic acid which would give a (2S)-cathinone which would give a (2S)-methamphetamine.
Use R and S notation for chiral centers it is much easier to understand. rarely do modern chemists use dextro of levo or d/l or D and L if they can avoid it, because of the huge potential for confusion, use +/- for optical rotation and R and S for absolute configuration.

If racemic MDMA which will not rotate polarized light, has a chiral cut like dextrose-glucose or a chiral counter ion like tartaric acid then a polarimeter is going to see the rotation caused by the cut. Which is why people use chiral HPLC rather than polarimetry. A small amount of glucose rotates polarized light a long way and the thing you want to know is whether the MDMA is chiral rather than whether the combination of all the other junk and MDMA rotates light.


----------



## vecktor

user666 said:


> A  question for *Sekio* or *Vector* or other chem Pros:
> How would you separate or selectively inactivate Fentanyl Hydrochloride + MDMA Hydrochloride ?  ...without running a column.


recrystalise the MDMA hydrochloride from hot isopropanol or similar, the fentanyl if it really is present (which I really doubt) will be in much lower concentrations than the MDMA and so on cooling will stay in solution and the MDMA will crystalise as solids. Same thing would work with quick wash, if the opioid is potent then there must be very small amounts of it, otherwise it would kill you so it is not going to take much solvent to dissolve it so an acetone wash would get rid of it without dissolving too much MDMA.


----------



## indigoaura

I don't think fentanyl is the issue. The testing companies are looking for fentanyl specifically. Also, many of the samples discussed in this thread were washed with acetone and re-crystallized and the issue was still there.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> I will help you with $100 worth of bitcoin if you decide to do it.
> 
> 
> I'd expect only 2CB to have interactions.
> If the MDMA was contaminated with a small amount of a potent opiate, then it would be virtually undetectable but an MDMA-only user would feel it, e.g. opiates shrink pupils and make people sleepy.
> However an opiate user would not react to the contaminant because he'd have had built up a tolerance to it.
> 
> I bet you could take 100mg of pure Magic MDMA, add a 1mcg of a powerful opiate to it and convert it into Meh MDMA that would pass most of the lab tests.
> Can the reverse be performed, e.g. taking Meh MDMA with a dose of an anti-opioid agent, such as Narcan ?  I do not know.
> Does a chemical exist that would inactivate opioids in-vitro, without destroying the MDMA and leaving toxic stuff behind ?  I do not know.
> 
> A  question for *Sekio* or *Vector* or other chem Pros:
> How would you separate or selectively inactivate Fentanyl Hydrochloride + MDMA Hydrochloride ?  ...without running a column.



I've found op8's definitely dampen a "roll" and make it more cruisy and less intense to me but I don't think I'd classify it as a meh experience.maybe.ive never had meh so someone else with op8 and mdma experience needs to chime in on this one.
Firstly this possibility can be ruled in or out with the use of fentanyl test strips but for the theory here goes:
Either distillation(probably ineffective)
or find something that one dissolves in but the other doesn't. I also think a recrystallization from water might be an option as the fentanyl being in such small amounts would easily stay in a  solution of fully saturated mdma when the mdma starts crystallizing out. at the very least this would remove most fentanyl and concentrate it in the remaining water.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> Is this the right kind of polarimeter?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lab Instrument Manual Disc Polarimeter with Sodium Lamp +/- 180° Manual Polarimeter Research Industry Type Disk Polarimeter 100mm and 200mm Polarimeter Tube Manual Polarimeter Tester - - Amazon.com
> 
> 
> Lab Instrument Manual Disc Polarimeter with Sodium Lamp +/- 180° Manual Polarimeter Research Industry Type Disk Polarimeter 100mm and 200mm Polarimeter Tube Manual Polarimeter Tester - - Amazon.com
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.com


I would think so.


----------



## draculic acid69

vecktor said:


> I very much doubt it.
> 
> The commercial route to methylone (mdmethcathinone) was via the alpha bromoketone and reaction with methylamine, the cathinone product is racemic, therefore MDMA by reduction of commercial methylone is also going to be racemic.
> 
> The Alanine, MD Benzene, Friedel Crafts acylation route requires at least 5 steps to methylone and some more to MDMA. If the alcohol is an intermediate then add in an extra step or two there too. It is never going to be used commercially, not ever.   Racemic Alanine is way cheaper than L-Alanine which makes the chiral theory even more unlikely.
> L-Alanine is dextrorotatory, therefore L-Alanine = d-Alanine = (S)-(+)-Alanine
> Look at the absolute configuration of the enantiomers of MDMA and Alanine, L alanine would always give eventually S-MDMA. It really doesn't matter at all what type of reduction is carried out,  the configuration at the 2 position is locked.  L-Alanine is (2S)-2-aminopropanoic acid which would give a (2S)-cathinone which would give a (2S)-methamphetamine.
> Use R and S notation for chiral centers it is much easier to understand. rarely do modern chemists use dextro of levo or d/l or D and L if they can avoid it, because of the huge potential for confusion, use +/- for optical rotation and R and S for absolute configuration.



I know it might not be likely but it's still a  possibility until ruled out. As for any cut such as glucose affecting the polarimeter test if this were done on confirmed sufficiently pure product wouldn't be an issue.im guessing that the testing facilities can tell u how pure a sample is and if pure can then go on to be tested in the polarimeter. Has anyone encountered mdma with glucose/dextrose in it?


----------



## Wilson Wilson

draculic acid69 said:


> I've found op8's definitely dampen a "roll" and make it more cruisy and less intense to me but I don't think I'd classify it as a meh experience.maybe.ive never had meh so someone else with op8 and mdma experience needs to chime in on this one.



I've mixed opiates and MDMA many times. It's a whole experience in and of itself, and it definitely does not feel "meh" in the slightest. Even if you are not familiar with opiates you would know if your MDMA has opiates in it and it wouldn't be because it felt meh. Likewise if you were opiate tolerant you'd recognise the opiate effects even if they didn't get you blasted.

Oxy and MDMA is a popular combo in and of itself. The body high you get from it is out of this absolute fucking world. If your opiate tolerance is low enough, even codeine and MDMA will feel good. It may well dull the roll in the sense you won't get the proper deep introspective stuff going on, but it will enhance the overall feel good party vibe, music appreciation, and body high, and you will get a super intense nod with closed eye visuals as you start to come down. It's a different experience, and I'd definitely argue much less therapeutic, but it's not meh.

If you happen to be a fan of The Weeknd (who, fwiw, sounds amazing when you're rolling) his XO symbol stands for "ecstasy and oxy". And there's a reason St Hendrix raps "Percocet, Molly, Percocet" 

I doubt fent would feel so euphoric, but regardless, the effects you'd get wouldn't just be MehDMA, you'd notice if you'd took fent. And there'd be a lot more fucking ODs.

Plus as @indigoaura pointed out, labs specifically test for opioids especially fent and fentalogues, so the lab tests would show if that was the problem.


----------



## vecktor

draculic acid69 said:


> I've found op8's definitely dampen a "roll" and make it more cruisy and less intense to me but I don't think I'd classify it as a meh experience.maybe.ive never had meh so someone else with op8 and mdma experience needs to chime in on this one.
> Firstly this possibility can be ruled in or out with the use of fentanyl test strips but for the theory here goes:
> Either distillation(probably ineffective)
> or find something that one dissolves in but the other doesn't. I also think a recrystallization from water might be an option as the fentanyl being in such small amounts would easily stay in a  solution of fully saturated mdma when the mdma starts crystallizing out. at the very least this would remove most fentanyl and concentrate it in the remaining water. If I remember correctly fentanyl citrate boils fairly low at around 160'c so one could put any mdma fent crystal in a pyrex bowl and put in the oven at @ 170'c and hope they don't die of a fent od from any vapour from the oven while also hoping that mdma HCl or sulfate doesn't degrade at these temperatures.
> I know when the plasticy fent patches are put in an ice pipe the fent evaps off before the plastic breaks down but I've also put white mdma powder in a pipe and it just turned to harsh black shit and couldn't be smoked so I don't know how mdma handles heat.im unaware of if it was mdma sulfate or HCL.



There is no way in hell fentanyl citrate boils at 160oC  at atmospheric pressure. it melts at 149-151 it doesn't boil just 10 degrees higher!

Cooking MDMA salt at 170oC is a pretty good way to destroy it.


----------



## draculic acid69

vecktor said:


> There is no way in hell fentanyl citrate boils at 160oC  at atmospheric pressure. it melts at 149-151 it doesn't boil just 10 degrees higher!
> 
> Cooking MDMA salt at 170oC is a pretty good way to destroy it.


Can't find the b.p. for fent citrate anywhere. I might have gotten the m.p. and b.p. mixed up.


----------



## draculic acid69

I


vecktor said:


> There is no way in hell fentanyl citrate boils at 160oC  at atmospheric pressure. it melts at 149-151 it doesn't boil just 10 degrees higher!
> 
> Cooking MDMA salt at 170oC is a pretty good way to destroy it.


I've edited the above post about fents b.p. as I can't verify it accurately. I remember 160'c somewhere to do with fent but it may have been the m.p. not b.p.


----------



## nznity

Wilson Wilson said:


> I've mixed opiates and MDMA many times. It's a whole experience in and of itself, and it definitely does not feel "meh" in the slightest. Even if you are not familiar with opiates you would know if your MDMA has opiates in it and it wouldn't be because it felt meh. Likewise if you were opiate tolerant you'd recognise the opiate effects even if they didn't get you blasted.
> 
> Oxy and MDMA is a popular combo in and of itself. The body high you get from it is out of this absolute fucking world. If your opiate tolerance is low enough, even codeine and MDMA will feel good. It may well dull the roll in the sense you won't get the proper deep introspective stuff going on, but it will enhance the overall feel good party vibe, music appreciation, and body high, and you will get a super intense nod with closed eye visuals as you start to come down. It's a different experience, and I'd definitely argue much less therapeutic, but it's not meh.
> 
> If you happen to be a fan of The Weeknd (who, fwiw, sounds amazing when you're rolling) his XO symbol stands for "ecstasy and oxy". And there's a reason St Hendrix raps "Percocet, Molly, Percocet"
> 
> I doubt fent would feel so euphoric, but regardless, the effects you'd get wouldn't just be MehDMA, you'd notice if you'd took fent. And there'd be a lot more fucking ODs.
> 
> Plus as @indigoaura pointed out, labs specifically test for opioids especially fent and fentalogues, so the lab tests would show if that was the problem.


i always slam morphine before i roll and BANG after i comedown to sleep haha.


----------



## ComicSansMS

Le Junk said:


> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!



\



I believe there was a thread started about this on the SR Forums in 2012
So many people used to suck this seller's dick about how great he was.  It went on for hundreds of pages.

"Someone" started a thread on there identical to this and apparently received five different batches from this seller with testing kits, quantities, how it got through etc.
If there is a SR forums backup, apparently there is a lot of information inside it.  A lot of posts with more knowledge than I

It spoke to a lot of these questions and answers!


----------



## Negi

ComicSansMS said:


> \
> 
> 
> 
> I believe there was a thread started about this on the SR Forums in 2012
> So many people used to suck this seller's dick about how great he was.  It went on for hundreds of pages.
> 
> "Someone" started a thread on there identical to this and apparently received five different batches from this seller with testing kits, quantities, how it got through etc.
> If there is a SR forums backup, apparently there is a lot of information inside it.  A lot of posts with more knowledge than I
> 
> It spoke to a lot of these questions and answers!


There are a couple of archives:








						Darknet Market Archives (2013–2015)
					

Mirrors of ~89 Tor-Bitcoin darknet markets & forums 2011–2015, and related material.




					www.gwern.net
				




I grabbed one, if you can remember any more information to narrow down the thread let me know.


----------



## Negi

Ok, I have extracted a large number of pages/posts from the "MDMA quality, from sellers on SR. please post reviews" Thread. This had 464 pages of posts on the SR1 forums. I'm not sure all of them are in the archive, as the way the pages were archived makes navigation impossible. I've tried to remove as many duplicates as I could (there were over 100 copies of the final page). To read them you'll need to open them with a web browser, either by dragging them onto it or by selecting the browser when the open with.. dialog box appears.
Here's the link: https://files.catbox.moe/6rc9d5.zip

While lots of the thread is about shipping issues and other vendor specific problems, you can find a good number of fairly detailed reviews from just jumping in on random parts of the archive.

I've pulled some quotes


			
				index.php_topic=1006.4850 said:
			
		

> In terms of the “feel” of the roll, the empathy and euphoria were all there. I also had the most mental clarity I’ve EVER had while rolling, and never stopped dancing or got tired. It was actually validating to show some of my friends, who are staunch supporters of meth rolls, that pure MDMA doesn’t necessarily make you tired (at least not when you obliterate yourself, like I did). One interesting point, though, is that my pupils weren’t nearly as dilated as they usually are. In fact, by the time we returned to the house, they were back to normal. This is especially strange for me, as usually my pupils quite noticeably swallow my irises, and stay at least somewhat dilated the whole next day. It’s even more perplexing as my visuals were stronger than they had been in over a year. I had to practically wrestle my phone to read a text. I actually consider that a positive point (no “demon eyes”); I just wish I knew the reason behind it.





			
				index.php_topic=1006.6550 said:
			
		

> My review of supertrips green ?'s
> Tried them last night with my girl and 2 other couples.
> my stats: Male/185lbs/went through my rolling phase but now only do it once every two months maybe once a month. usually with presses i take at most 4 in a night.
> 00:00 4 of us Dropped one green ? each
> 00:30 Getting tingly, 3rd couple arrives....they havent rolled in 9+ months. They each drop 1
> 01:00 Im rollin tits....we are all watching alice in wonderland blueray amazed at the picture but unable to follow the storyline. 3rd couple getting excited to be as fucked up as we are
> 02:00 Everybody's rolling tits and every 20 minutes someone stops and says "dude, gooooooood fucking pill!"
> 02:15 pills so hard press i could snap it in half and was too lazy to get a knife so i dropped another whole one
> 03:00 Haven't felt like this in a long time......nice clean roll. buddys got light gloves.....im spinnin on my turntables......awesomeness. slight clenched jaw but not bad at all. mild eye wiggles...mild shakey jaw......lovin it
> 04:00 other couple leaves to drop their  second when they get home. meanwhile the music and energy is still amazing
> 05:00 a nice hot shower feels amazing. Didnt eat for about 3 hours before i dropped, its not 4 am and I can feel im not peaking anymore, but still have a nice clean buzz with a slight hunger(i always eat before i fall asleep when i roll it makes me feel better in the morning) so i ate a small bowl of ziti, layed down had no problem "in bed" and passed the fuck out right after.
> 
> woke up at 11a today and feel great! felt like i took 4 pills last night but i only took 2. no after seritonin felt depletion......great way to relax on a saturday! thanks Supertrips! come back soon!





			
				index.php_topic=1006.4300 said:
			
		

> I giddily took my goods to an art festival for the weekend, excited to show and tell my friends.  After much deliberation, however, and seeing, eating, and discussing the different types of molly we'd all acquired for the weekend, we're pretty sure that this was sass.  I looked at all different kinds and talked with friends who have extensive experience in buying, selling, and doing molly (including through Silk Road and directly from the Netherlands) and have determined that the smell, taste, consistency, and overall experience when ingested all points to some really good sass.
> 
> That said, I still had a great time.  Ate the stuff all weekend with no complaints, really, though I did have slight headaches in the mornings, near my temples.  The main difference, I'd say, is that it's a more mellow high.  It will help you to dance, if that's what you want to do, but it won't force you to move and it won't make it impossible to pry yourself from the dance floor.  I felt that I had a lot more self-control.  Definite great euphoric feelings and definite energy, but I spent a lot more time talking than dancing, and I'm in the market for something that gives me the sprint, not the jog.  I'll probably be looking for something better for next time (before halloween if anyone wants to spam me with advertisements).


In reply to that one:


> I feel like you just expected something that MDMA is not. MDMA generally doesnt have the effect of keeping you dancing for hours unless its cut with speed/meth. Thus being said i do not believe it was Sass. Sass is most commonly known as MDA. and based off of your explination it was not that. Also, if it was MDA the seller would know and would be putting it in that section since there are no sellers currently. It would sell like hotcaked. Next time you roll try ordering some speed from some of the vendors and mix some of that in with your mix.



There's some interesting discussion in file "index.php_topic=1006.3400"


> Alot of MDMA I have ordered recently from multiple vendors, whether it be white or brown/tan has had a lot more of the "speedy" effects of classic MDMA and not as much of the "loved up" effects/feelings, why could this be?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll bite. Given you've tried product from multiple sources and find the effects to be similar in nature, we can largely discount the drug itself being the source of the difference in subjective experience. That leaves set and setting, and the current configuration of your synapses.
> I don't know you and your chemical history, frequency of use, nor social environ, so I can't do anything but wildly speculate about the way it's affecting you, and how that differs from other experiences.
> I can say this: In a prior stage of life I was involved in the production of MDMA for recreational purposes. The prevailing ethos in my circles was one of shared creation and experimentation, and financial involvement was frowned upon. Those on the periphery of the circle got to taste a great variety of compounds without any money changing hands, and without ever knowing where it came from, which I mention to give a frame of reference.
> Dosed with MDMA.HCl from the very same batch, produced under optimal conditions and at a purity seldom seen where I am these days, people would ascribe different properties to the product as their state of mind and their neurochemical state changed with circumstance, and whatever else they'd been taking.
> I had people telling me that this batch was smacky and mellow while the last batch was speedy and uptight, and another batch was trippy, when unbeknownst to the describer the MDMA was all from the same batch. We'd made the stuff they were taking, and were educated and equipped to say that what they'd described as multiple different batches was a product entirely identical across doses.
> It appears that with a fixed quality and purity people's experience of the drug will change as their neurochemistry changes, and as their life circumstances changed.
> 
> I appreciate that this isn't really an answer, but it's the information I have. Try to remember what it was you did when the feeling was "loved up", and see if you can recreate the circumstances. My experience suggests that this will allow you to attain the same state of mind and feelings as you once did, presuming you haven't burned your receptors or neuromodulated yourself into a state that precludes such delightful states.
Click to expand...


It seems this really is an age old discussion.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Negi said:


> In reply to that one:
> 
> 
> 
> MDMA generally doesnt have the effect of keeping you dancing for hours unless its cut with speed/meth
Click to expand...

I would disagree with that. MDMA can certainly keep people up and going to the music for hours - just not everyone gets that effect though, or it seems to wear off a lot faster for some.

The thing I found with speed and MDMA is that it kind of dulls the effect of the MDMA, but makes it last longer. Like a flatter, but more drawn-out peak. The alert feeling kind of stops me from really being immersed in the MDMA space.. I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with that though.


The only thing I've seen evidence of in this thread is that people experience a much wider range of effects from lab-tested, reasonably pure MDMA than they believe MDMA alone is capable of producing.

Anyone who consistently has negative experiences or feels sick for days after should probably stop taking it.


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi Do you know of anywhere the old pillreports website would be backed up?

I'm not really seeing the kind of discussion @ComicSansMS referenced in the highlights you posted. Also, seems important to keep in mind that sellers posting to DW forums have specific motivations and want to continue to sell their products and make money. Of course someone selling less than stellar than MDMA would want the buyers to believe the only variation in product is with them, and not with the product itself.

@ComicSansMS Are you recalling that someone specifically had multiple batches of MDMA provided to them from one seller, with variation in those batches?


----------



## AutoTripper

Kaden_Nite said:


> I would disagree with that. MDMA can certainly keep people up and going to the music for hours - just not everyone gets that effect though, or it seems to wear off a lot faster for some.
> 
> The thing I found with speed and MDMA is that it kind of dulls the effect of the MDMA, but makes it last longer. Like a flatter, but more drawn-out peak. The alert feeling kind of stops me from really being immersed in the MDMA space.. I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with that though.
> 
> 
> The only thing I've seen evidence of in this thread is that people experience a much wider range of effects from lab-tested, reasonably pure MDMA than they believe MDMA alone is capable of producing.
> 
> Anyone who consistently has negative experiences or feels sick for days after should probably stop taking it.


Yes, classic Original pure white Doves, early 90's, 120-130mg, tested as MDMA only, had THE reputation for getting you on and keeping you on that dance floor with boundless limitless energy.


----------



## indigoaura

I have not had time to read the whole article yet:

Synthesis and Analytical Profiles for Regioisomeric and Isobaric Amines Related to MDMA


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> @Negi Do you know of anywhere the old pillreports website would be backed up?



Kind of. If you load the old pillreports.com website in the internet archive you can see sections of reports, but not the full list. Here's an example: https://web.archive.org/web/20010504085547/http://www.pillreports.com/showreport.php3?area=1 You can't go back in the history, you can only see the reports that were on the front section when the site was archived at that point in time. The full site wasn't crawled so it's also hit or miss if you can get the full reports and comments for a pill that is visible.
The site design screws with the internet archive so you also have to manually create the navigation links (Ie add /showreport.php3?area=2 to the end of https://web.archive.org/web/20010712234255/http://www.pillreports.com).



indigoaura said:


> Also, seems important to keep in mind that sellers posting to DW forums have specific motivations and want to continue to sell their products and make money. Of course someone selling less than stellar than MDMA would want the buyers to believe the only variation in product is with them, and not with the product itself.



That was another user replying, not a vendor account. I even did a search on their other posts and didn't see any shill stuff.

It's funny, there was even discussion about the synthesis routes in that thread:



> I heard that not all batches are made using high amounts of saff oil, especially post 2009 drought. Could this not be the cause of the change in feelings?
> 
> 
> 
> The sassafras oil itself isn't important; It's a source of safrole, which is converted to isosafrole and then generally oxidised to MDP-2-P, which is subsequently reductively aminated to MDMA. Safrole is available from lots of essential oils, not just sassafras, it just occurs at the highest concentration in sassafras oil. But safrole isn't the only starting point for MDMA, just one of the simplest. There are many other sources of safrole, just as there are many other possible starting points that end up with MDMA.
> Provided people are getting from their precursor to MDP-2-P, and cleaning up properly at each stage of the synthesis, it doesn't matter what the initial reagent is, and won't alter the resulting high.
> 
> I don't know what the typical commercial routes to MDMA are these days, so I can't really speculate on other reaction products that aren't MDMA that might be contaminating the end product and providing an altered experience. I know there's still a shitload of sassafras oil available in Asia so I'd surmise most of the MDMA is still produced through the tried and true methods it's just ahrder to order a few litres of safrole over the internet than it used to be.
Click to expand...


I also found a 69 page "MDMA Avengers" thread where people were reagent testing and acetone washing MDMA from different vendors, so I'll clean that up and post it as well.


----------



## psy997

Negi said:


> It seems this really is an age old discussion.



The discussions you linked are not the same as what we're having here. We're not talking smacky and mellow vs speedy and uptight. We're talking empathy vs no empathy, desire to talk or hear someone talk vs not wanting to socialize in any way, wanting to move or at least touch oneself vs lie completely still under a blanket, etc. It's a much different conversation than texture of effects, it's completely different and atypical effects.



Kaden_Nite said:


> The only thing I've seen evidence of in this thread is that people experience a much wider range of effects from lab-tested, reasonably pure MDMA than they believe MDMA alone is capable of producing.
> 
> Anyone who consistently has negative experiences or feels sick for days after should probably stop taking it.



In response to your first paragraph, have you ever had MDMA that completely removes all desire to socialize, listen to music, or do anything besides lie under a blanket in total silence? If not, again, you won't understand why we're having this discussion, and why some of us care so much.

I've used psychedelics hundreds of times, I think 16-17 different compounds at this point, and despite there being a huge variance in qualitative effects between trips, I've never had a trip that doesn't give me at least a few of the usual effects: open eye visuals, closed eye visuals, increased tactile and bodily awareness, increased perceptions and awareness, inability to sleep, movement into present moment awareness, etc. In contrast, MehDMA has none of the usual MDMA effects for me.

In response to your second paragraph, those of us who consistently find MehDMA have no problem having mind-blowing experiences on good product when we find it. Again, you assume that it is an issue of the individual when we have collected IMO adequate evidence that tells a different picture. Coming to the conclusion that it is an individual phenomenon, not an issue with product, is an ok conclusion. But, if you're not willing to include the evidence we have collected here that points to Set and Setting not being the issue and provide adequate explanations for said evidence, I would argue that you're not engaging here in good faith.


----------



## indigoaura

> I've used psychedelics hundreds of times, I think 16-17 different compounds at this point, and despite there being a huge variance in qualitative effects between trips, I've never had a trip that doesn't give me at least a few of the usual effects: open eye visuals, closed eye visuals, increased tactile and bodily awareness, increased perceptions and awareness, inability to sleep, movement into present moment awareness, etc. In contrast, MehDMA has none of the usual MDMA effects for me.



I agree with this. I have substantial tolerance to 2CB. Despite that, I can 100% recognize when I have taken 2CB, whether it is 15 mg, 25 mg, or 35 mg. In fact, I had stashed half of a 2CB in a jar of supplements and forgot about it. Reached in one night before bed and pulled out a capsule and took it. Went to bed. All of a sudden, about 45 minutes later, woke up and had a jolt of energy and unusual thought patterns. Immediately thought, "Weird, it feels like 2CB." I did not even know I had taken 2CB at that point, but it was identifiable immediately. 

The same was true for my MDMA use before my supplier changed. Yes, I had some tolerance, but I could tell the difference between MDMA and another compound.


----------



## Negi

psy997 said:


> The discussions you linked are not the same as what we're having here. We're not talking smacky and mellow vs speedy and uptight. We're talking empathy vs no empathy, desire to talk or hear someone talk vs not wanting to socialize in any way, wanting to move or at least touch oneself vs lie completely still under a blanket, etc. It's a much different conversation than texture of effects, it's completely different and atypical effects.



I find it pretty interesting that there were no reports like that in either of the threads. The two threads covered pretty much every vendor selling MDMA on Silkroad, from US domestic, Canadian ones and big vendors out of NL. The main review thread covered from July 2011 to October 2013 when Silkroad got shutdown.

The closest reports to "mehDMA" are ones like this:


			
				index.php_topic=1006.1100 said:
			
		

> From various reports on the internet and also the sellers 'homepage', it seemed like it may be wise to start of on just half of one of these things and this is what me and a couple of mates intended on doing. However, for various reasons, two of us (myself included) failed to ingest just a half and ended up taking almost a whole one to start. My experience was of a nice floaty and pretty damn potent hit, that would come in a wave, before subsiding to be then followed by another wave and so on. These pills never compelled me to turn into Captain Socialite (which is not really in keeping with my character anyways), and whilst bobbing around on the dancefloor with my girlfriend, I was spared the usual stream of big happy ultra optimistic, but ultimately empty 'knowwhere plans' hatching in my head and in my books, being spared from all this bullshit happy head mince is a big bonus. In summation, the hit I got from these was nice, warm and floaty. Definitely not speedy, and also not a hit that I would describe particularly as being of the 'clear headed' variety.
> 
> My friend who also started on a whole pill, also has very positive things to say about these pills. My other friend however, who successfully stuck to the 'advice' and took his doses in half pill increments (until 3am when he finally took a full one), reported having his (ultra high) expectations somewhat let down. He reported that he never quite felt as though he managed to hit the same 'pleasure plateau' as the rest of us did. He suspects his problems boil down to the half doses he was taking in the first half of the night.
> 
> In summation, I am overall very pleased with these White Speakers and intend on grabbing some more in the very near future. However, I wouldn't say that they were the absolute very best pills that I ever had in terms of 'quality' (although certainly much better than most I have had in recent times) and I would also suggest that whilst they are pretty strong (if a whole one is taken), they are not so strong that taking a half pill would really be recommended, at least not for an experienced user.
> 
> My rating for the White Speakers from Chemical Brothers is 8.5/10. (Strong potency, very nice quality warm happy hit, but not hitting that AAA crystal clear MDMA Nirvana)





			
				index.php_topic=1006.1500 said:
			
		

> Qualitatively I would say that Tony's mdma is real, but it's not as "strong" as skyy's product. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying his stuff is bad (I'm about to order more from Tony in just a few days) but at .2 I did not have the extreme empathogenic feelings that I have gotten from the pink stars. I did feel AWESOME and I did have some empathogenic feelings but they just were not as strong. I haven't rolled in over two months so I know I don't have a tolerance built up. Everyone there stated the same thing so it wasn't just me. Everyone however had a great time and it is still light years better than anything else we can get locally.





			
				index.php_topic=1006.450 said:
			
		

> I am a somewhat regular user of MDMA at maybe 5 - 6 times a year with no more than 350mg of MDMA consumed over the course of a night (I'm about 200lbs with a high metabolism).  I wouldn't consider myself an expert on quality by any means and of course I am simply sharing my personal experience.  This is also my standard day of food intake and pre-load when I am expecting to take MDMA that night. With that said it had been about 3 months since the last time I rolled.
> 
> 8:00am - I started the day with a high protein breakfast and a of a cup of grapefruit juice.
> 11:30am - A small cod fillet for lunch, 200mg 5-HTP, 200mg Magnesium, and some Orange Juice.
> 6:00pm - Ingested 150mg of MDMA (my standard rule is 1.6mg/kg of body weight)
> 6:40pm - Started to feel the effects, lightened mood, notice pupils starting to dilate, and slight body high.  (Typically I am at this point within 30 minutes)
> 7:20pm - Very light mood, tactile sensations are feeling better, and have the loved up mood but it seems very mellow.  Took a 100mg bump
> 8:00pm - Pupils are decently dilated lights and visuals seem very attractive.  Tactile sensation still feels good, feel like talking more (which is a little unusual for me).  The bump definitely hit me but I am not floored still feel very relaxed.  I thought about bumping an extra 50mg but at this point if it hasn't hit me I doubt it wouldn't make much difference.
> 10:00pm - Starting to feel more relaxed than before, still have a good body high visuals are less, tactile sensations feel normal not tired but don't feel like doing anything.
> 11:00pm - Most all effects have faded away very cleanly, starting to get tired and still super relaxed.
> 
> I bought this batch in late November of last year (or some time around then) and overall it was one of the cleanest rolls I have ever had but at no point did I ever feel "floored" even at the peak.  I think this batch would be great if you wanted to have some fun and get a good body high but not have to worry about people really noticing.  Shipment was fast and discreet and is a solid vendor if you ask me, Thanks 3Jane.



There were a few "these were crap" reports, but they were about pills so I'm chalking that up to dosage issues (since people were still putting in great reviews for the crystal MDMA from the same vendor).


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi I am just not sure how relevant these posts are to our conversation. They were from 7 years ago, so the nature of the vendors may have shifted considerably since then as well as production methods. Also, very possible that comments like, "I was spared the usual stream of big happy ultra optimistic, but ultimately empty 'knowwhere plans' hatching in my head and in my books, being spared from all this bullshit happy head mince is a big bonus" are talking about a similar phenomenon, but with different words. The third post you included is definitely not the same issue, as that individual noted dilated pupils and enhanced touch, two characteristics completely lacking from the MehDMA discussed here.


----------



## Negi

Some people in this thread have have reported encountering mehDMA as far back as 2005, so I feel like the thread can provide a useful data point towards that. As for if those could have been mehDMA reports, I'll have to leave that up to those with experience from it. Nearly all the reports in this thread have focused on the things they feel is lacking from it, so I don't have a clear definition of what the remaining effects are.

Would this match a mehDMA experience?


> My experience was of a nice floaty and pretty damn potent hit, that would come in a wave, before subsiding to be then followed by another wave and so on. These pills never compelled me to turn into Captain Socialite (which is not really in keeping with my character anyways), and whilst bobbing around on the dancefloor with my girlfriend, I was spared the usual stream of big happy ultra optimistic, but ultimately empty 'knowwhere plans' hatching in my head and in my books, being spared from all this bullshit happy head mince is a big bonus. In summation, the hit I got from these was nice, warm and floaty. Definitely not speedy, and also not a hit that I would describe particularly as being of the 'clear headed' variety.
> 
> My friend who also started on a whole pill, also has very positive things to say about these pills.
> 
> ...
> 
> My rating for the White Speakers from Chemical Brothers is 8.5/10. (Strong potency, very nice quality warm happy hit, but not hitting that AAA crystal clear MDMA Nirvana)


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi That writer definitely has his/her distinct writing style, lol. Some of it sounds like Meh, but some does not:



> My experience was of a nice floaty and pretty damn potent hit, that would come in a wave, before subsiding to be then followed by another wave and so on.



This does not align with my personal experiences. I would not describe it as nice and floaty. I also feel like it lacks that "waves" quality. When it drops off, it drops off and is done. There is no additional wave, in my experience.



> These pills never compelled me to turn into Captain Socialite (which is not really in keeping with my character anyways



This sounds like Meh. It lacks the pro-social aspect. 



> whilst bobbing around on the dancefloor with my girlfriend,



This does not sound like Meh. You wouldn't want to bob around anywhere. 



> I was spared the usual stream of big happy ultra optimistic, but ultimately empty 'knowwhere plans' hatching in my head and in my books, being spared from all this bullshit happy head mince is a big bonus.



I take this to mean that there were no inspired thoughts, or ideas to go and do XYZ. This does sound like Meh. I don't know how to really describe this, but MDMA for me would always have me hatching some ridiculous plan to move the stereo, or find some better pair of headphones, or put the bed in the living room. The plans never came to fruition, but a good portion of the roll would be spent going through cords to connect something that I never quite figured out how to connect. It is hard to explain, but the Meh product does not do that to me at all. I have no inspired, happy plans.



> In summation, the hit I got from these was nice, warm and floaty. Definitely not speedy, and also not a hit that I would describe particularly as being of the 'clear headed' variety.



Does not sound quite like Meh. Meh is cold to me, and not really floaty.


----------



## indigoaura

Also, @Negi, I struggle with this as well: "I don't have a clear definition of what the remaining effects are."

Honestly, I don't have a clear way to describe the effects myself.  I find it very challenging to describe it by emphasizing what qualities it has rather than the qualities it lacks. 

Physical - feels cold and heavy. You know how your body feels when you are really tired and you just can't imagine getting up to go anywhere? It feels kind of like that. 
Mental - There is almost an absence of thought. It is quite vacant. I think this is what reminds me of xanax, because both eliminate the chatter of my mind. I have a very active mind, and this definitely has a silencing effect.
Auditory - Environmental sounds including talking are often disruptive to the vacant mental state. Interruptions, in general, are frustrating.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> Physical - feels cold and heavy. You know how your body feels when you are really tired and you just can't imagine getting up to go anywhere? It feels kind of like that.
> Mental - There is almost an absence of thought. It is quite vacant. I think this is what reminds me of xanax, because both eliminate the chatter of my mind. I have a very active mind, and this definitely has a silencing effect.
> Auditory - Environmental sounds including talking are often disruptive to the vacant mental state. Interruptions, in general, are frustrating.



I'm gonna try and riff on this.

I do notice a greater pleasure in touching others on Meh. It's more enjoyable to have a hand/arm on a friend than when sober, but I don't search it out, and it's not a disappointment when I don't have it or break contact.
Meh has a silencing effect on mental activity for me, as well, but it's in an unpleasant, makes me feel empty kind of way. I've done some good shadow work on Meh once simply because I decided to jump headfirst into the empty meaninglessness and see what it was that really scared me so much about it. There's really nothing to hold you there, though, like Magic. I was only able to stay in the emptiness because I was actively evoking a psycho-spiritual form in my mind to keep me centered.
Even music is disrupting. I like the descriptor of interruptions being frustrating. That fits my experience almost perfectly. No-one talk, no-one move, turn the music off, make no sound, just let me be.
I used to have a strong "what is wrong with me" feeling that would accompany the experience, being unable to not blame myself for feeling so low. Now, I just get angry because I know it's not me but the drug.


----------



## G_Chem

Sorry guys I haven’t caught up on the recent posts after my last, still licking my wounds after that last upset. Every time I feel we are about to make some progress on this something like my last experiment snafoo happens.

I was so pissed I damn near gave up but then yesterday something happened.  I have two samples of 5-MAPB, one is pure magic (#1) while the other came as impure lackluster garbage (#2).

Batch #2 was purified a great deal to a point that nearly resembles batch #1.

I then tried a little bit of batch 2 while on some other substances and still noticed a similar lackluster effect but it was hard to know for sure with the size of dose and other drugs in my system.

Today I’ll be trying this batch 2 by itself to see if it’s the same or different.

Last night I did a side by side with reagents and noticed some peculiar differences, but the one that stood out.

Just as with the MDMA experiments (the first round) the pure magic #1 eventually went a maroon purple on Liebermann whereas the batch 2 stayed that brown/black color.

Now once again I feel there’s maybe something to this particular reaction.  I’m planning on doing a series of Reagent reactions to see if I can’t see some patterns going on.

All hope is not lost I suppose.  Tonight will be the test to see if this batch 2 of 5-MAPB is magic or meh.  If it’s magic then I may be back to drawing board.

Take care guys,

-GC


----------



## Negi

Are people getting euphoria at all on mehDMA? Again how based on how people talk about it in the thread it seems like there isn't anything to salvage from, if you find out you have it the whole thing is lackluster.


----------



## Funkadelica

G_Chem said:


> Sorry guys I haven’t caught up on the recent posts after my last, still licking my wounds after that last upset. Every time I feel we are about to make some progress on this something like my last experiment snafoo happens.
> 
> I was so pissed I damn near gave up but then yesterday something happened.  I have two samples of 5-MAPB, one is pure magic (#1) while the other came as impure lackluster garbage (#2).
> 
> Batch #2 was purified a great deal to a point that nearly resembles batch #1.
> 
> I then tried a little bit of batch 2 while on some other substances and still noticed a similar lackluster effect but it was hard to know for sure with the size of dose and other drugs in my system.
> 
> Today I’ll be trying this batch 2 by itself to see if it’s the same or different.
> 
> Last night I did a side by side with reagents and noticed some peculiar differences, but the one that stood out.
> 
> Just as with the MDMA experiments (the first round) the pure magic #1 eventually went a maroon purple on Liebermann whereas the batch 2 stayed that brown/black color.
> 
> Now once again I feel there’s maybe something to this particular reaction.  I’m planning on doing a series of Reagent reactions to see if I can’t see some patterns going on.
> 
> All hope is not lost I suppose.  Tonight will be the test to see if this batch 2 of 5-MAPB is magic or meh.  If it’s magic then I may be back to drawing board.
> 
> Take care guys,
> 
> -GC




Yeah man that recent pure 5-MAPB is absolute fire!  Beats the shit out of MehDMA, in every respect.  First time was absolutely magical, just like my first MagicMD time.  Recent experiences have been amazing but not to the extent of that first time.  Plus you only need about 50-70mg, even lower doses at around 35mg have been great.  If I was offered shite MD or 5-MAPB, it would be the latter all the way.


----------



## psy997

Negi said:


> Are people getting euphoria at all on mehDMA? Again how based on how people talk about it in the thread it seems like there isn't anything to salvage from, if you find out you have it the whole thing is lackluster.



None for me. Every time I end up feeling worse than before I took it.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@G_Chem in my current TLC experiments I've been applying reagents to the spots.  I've found the colours to be a lot more vibrant, and nuanced than when applying to raw crystal.  Normally, for me, when applying reagents to raw that are supposed to turn a dark colour, they just go black.  But after TLC, marquis had a very blue fringe, and froedhe purple.  These colours were very obvious.

So I was wondering if you could try doing the same?  Comparing magic and meh batches after TLC?  Unfortunately I've only got meh samples so can't compare.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Negi said:


> Are people getting euphoria at all on mehDMA? Again how based on how people talk about it in the thread it seems like there isn't anything to salvage from, if you find out you have it the whole thing is lackluster.



None.  I used to describe the euphoria of magic as being so intense it was like being crushed and exploded all at the same time, but pleasurable.  Mehdma and mehda don't have any.  Sometimes you get a feeling like it's about to happen, but it never does.  That's what I miss the most.


----------



## nznity

ThreePointCircle said:


> None.  I used to describe the euphoria of magic as being so intense it was like being crushed and exploded all at the same time, but pleasurable.  Mehdma and mehda don't have any.  Sometimes you get a feeling like it's about to happen, but it never does.  That's what I miss the most.


meh feels like it's about to begin the comeup and then "poof" fades away. Real MDMA first gives you energy then it dissapears for a good 10min and THEN BAM, you get lightheaded and your whole body starts rushing you feel so fucking alive. omg i wanna roll after this shit finally fucking ends.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> @G_Chem in my current TLC experiments I've been applying reagents to the spots.  I've found the colours to be a lot more vibrant, and nuanced than when applying to raw crystal.  Normally, for me, when applying reagents to raw that are supposed to turn a dark colour, they just go black.  But after TLC, marquis had a very blue fringe, and froedhe purple.  These colours were very obvious.
> So I was wondering if you could try doing the same?  Comparing magic and meh batches after TLC?  Unfortunately I've only got meh samples so can't compare.


This is an excellent idea when on a shoestring budget.

Can you help @G_Chem obtain the TLC plates?
I can help him with the well-filtered UV light if he wants it.


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Sorry guys I haven’t caught up on the recent posts after my last, still licking my wounds after that last upset. Every time I feel we are about to make some progress on this something like my last experiment snafoo happens.
> 
> I was so pissed I damn near gave up but then yesterday something happened.  I have two samples of 5-MAPB, one is pure magic (#1) while the other came as impure lackluster garbage (#2).
> 
> Batch #2 was purified a great deal to a point that nearly resembles batch #1.
> 
> I then tried a little bit of batch 2 while on some other substances and still noticed a similar lackluster effect but it was hard to know for sure with the size of dose and other drugs in my system.
> 
> Today I’ll be trying this batch 2 by itself to see if it’s the same or different.
> 
> Last night I did a side by side with reagents and noticed some peculiar differences, but the one that stood out.
> 
> Just as with the MDMA experiments (the first round) the pure magic #1 eventually went a maroon purple on Liebermann whereas the batch 2 stayed that brown/black color.
> 
> Now once again I feel there’s maybe something to this particular reaction.  I’m planning on doing a series of Reagent reactions to see if I can’t see some patterns going on.
> 
> All hope is not lost I suppose.  Tonight will be the test to see if this batch 2 of 5-MAPB is magic or meh.  If it’s magic then I may be back to drawing board.
> 
> Take care guys,
> 
> -GC


Could you do me a favour and try smoking some mapb in an ice pipe?
I have a theory to test regarding mapb


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> This is an excellent idea when on a shoestring budget.
> 
> Can you help @G_Chem obtain the TLC plates?
> I can help him with the well-filtered UV light if he wants it.



For the plates, I'm using standard 254nm silica plates which I got off ebay of all places.  They're quite easy to get hold of, it's just a matter of finding a decent price in your locality.

You don't really need uv visualisation.  You can just put drops of the reagent over the whole plate.  With DCM:methanol:ammonia 90:9:1, I'm getting an rf of around .45.  So you can start dropping reagent about half-way up and you should hit it.  Sometimes the drop of the reagent pushes material to the drop edge and makes it look a bit funny, but colour-wise you should see quite a lot.

More info: https://mdma.noosworx.com/index.php?title=Thin_Layer_Chromatography


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> You don't really need uv visualisation. You can just put drops of the reagent over the whole plate.


If you can live without the real-time visualization of the component separation, then yes.



ThreePointCircle said:


> With DCM:methanol:ammonia 90:9:1, I'm getting an rf of around .45.


What RF do you get with Acetonitrile ?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> What RF do you get with Acetonitrile ?


Haven't tried it.  Sorry


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Haven't tried it.  Sorry


----------



## indigoaura

> None. I used to describe the euphoria of magic as being so intense it was like being crushed and exploded all at the same time, but pleasurable. Mehdma and mehda don't have any. Sometimes you get a feeling like it's about to happen, but it never does. That's what I miss the most.





> meh feels like it's about to begin the comeup and then "poof" fades away. Real MDMA first gives you energy then it dissapears for a good 10min and THEN BAM, you get lightheaded and your whole body starts rushing you feel so fucking alive. omg i wanna roll after this shit finally fucking ends.



I agree with both these comments. There are distinct moments when it feels like it is about to happen, but it doesn't. It is like you are on the same road for awhile, and it is a familiar enough road, but then right before the top of the mountain, you end up on some detour that doesn't go to the top of the mountain. 

To understand where I am coming from, you really need to understand my situation. I cannot drink due to a bladder condition that gets irritated whenever I drink. I cannot smoke pot, because it is a phytoestrogen that might interfere in my birth control's efficacy. So, my options at any given time are psychedelics or ecstasy. Psychedelics, as much as I love them in the right set/setting, are not always the best option for me in a house-party or at home type of situation. My mind feels pretty limited indoors with psychedelics, and sex is a big question mark on psychedelics for me. It could go really well or really poorly.

So, despite the fact that I do NOT get the effects of MDMA, I would be lying if I said I did not get something out of the MehDMA experience, even if it is just a slightly altered reality for a few hours. It really does remind me of a low dose of xanax. I do feel relaxed when I take it, but it is not euphoric at all. 

I used to write poetry on E or after taking E. It made me feel like I could believe in some kind of divinity again after abandoning religion. It made me feel like eternity was a concept that was possible. Breathing felt amazing, even the most basic of human actions felt amazing. All my senses were amplified, like I was a superhero with super sight and super hearing. I heard background instruments in music I had NEVER heard before (even though I played my favorite songs).

MehDMA is just not the same drug. It provides none of that. What it does provide is a feeling of easily interrupted relaxation, and a quieting of the mind (and an appreciation for blankets).

Probably the most interesting MehDMA experience I had was when my partner fell asleep once, and I just laid in the dark and meditated. Had a very interesting lucid dream experience under those circumstances where I met an odd entity. So, there may be something interesting to be explored if you did it 100% alone and pursued a dream state.


----------



## Negi

psy997 said:


> None for me. Every time I end up feeling worse than before I took it.





ThreePointCircle said:


> None.  I used to describe the euphoria of magic as being so intense it was like being crushed and exploded all at the same time, but pleasurable.  Mehdma and mehda don't have any.  Sometimes you get a feeling like it's about to happen, but it never does.  That's what I miss the most.





nznity said:


> meh feels like it's about to begin the comeup and then "poof" fades away. Real MDMA first gives you energy then it dissapears for a good 10min and THEN BAM, you get lightheaded and your whole body starts rushing you feel so fucking alive. omg i wanna roll after this shit finally fucking ends.



This is why I felt that none of the experiences from the Silkroad thread indicated the presence of mehDMA. Based on these reports I can't imagine anyone taking it and rating it a 8.5/10.


----------



## indigoaura

> Based on these reports I can't imagine anyone taking it and rating it a 8.5/10.



And this is where it gets tricky, because I want to take people at face value when they say they are getting typical MDMA. But, I can imagine how you would rate it at 8.5 out of 10 if all you have experienced were variations of Meh. But, most of the reports you posted talked about euphoria or enhanced touch, so that makes me think that they are getting magic stuff.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> But, I can imagine how you would rate it at 8.5 out of 10 if all you have experienced were variations of Meh



This is useful, because based on the descriptions in here I had been assuming mehDMA to be be a complete turnoff even to a first timer. How would you compare mehDMA to just being on a decent dose of amphetamine or meth?


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> This is useful, because based on the descriptions in here I had been assuming mehDMA to be be a complete turnoff even to a first timer. How would you compare mehDMA to just being on a decent dose of amphetamine or meth?



I have never deliberately consumed meth or an amphetamine by itself, so I cannot say. I have had it mixed into pills before, but in unknown amounts. 

I did cocaine once and found it boring, but cocaine was more rushy than MehDMA. There was more of that "pleasantly overwhelmed" feeling with cocaine.

I keep saying it, but based on my experiences MehDMA is most similar to low-dose xanax. But the main difference there is that if someone interrupted me or bothered me on xanax, I would not care at all. Everything is "whatever" on xanax. Whereas the MehDMA can turn somewhat hostile.


----------



## OpiateKiller

Negi said:


> This is useful, because based on the descriptions in here I had been assuming mehDMA to be be a complete turnoff even to a first timer. How would you compare mehDMA to just being on a decent dose of amphetamine or meth?



MehMDMA is worse than amp or real meth. But I don't even find good meth enjoyable, it's just not my choice of drugs to be honest.

Real Magic MDMA, is quite like any other drug. The love and empathy and feeling of serenity is quite unlike any substance I've ever used. Meh lacks all these qualities


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I keep saying it, but based on my experiences MehDMA is most similar to low-dose xanax.


Xanax is a GABA agonist similarly to some alcohols.

I remember that when I was reading this entire thread, someone was writing obout sending a sample of Meh MDMA to one of these public drug labs and they have detected some kind of alcohol analog of the MDMA molecule (with an OH group) in it.
I think it was @G_Chem who replied to this post and noted that "-ol"s can be "sleepy".

Maybe it was one of these:
MDP2Pol
MDP1Pol
Piperonyl alcohol and Piperonal oxime
Alpha-Hydroxy-3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (CID 13591054)
1,3-Benzodioxole-5-ethan*ol*, alpha-methyl (CAS 6974-61-4)
N-Hydroxy-MDMA (a.k.a.: MDHMA)
_... but I could be wrong and it was none of these._

*Question to Chem Pros*:  How can MDMA be separated from its analogs containing an OH group, without running a column ?

I remember reading somewhere that the N-Hydroxy analogs are unstable and like to dimerize via the oxime and they fool the *GC/MS* analysys because they undergo pyrolytic disproportionation into the MDP2P oxime and the pure base (e.g. MDMA) through the simultaneous reduction of the other half of the oxime dimer.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Xanax is a GABA agonist similarly to some alcohols.
> 
> I remember that when I was reading this entire thread, someone was writing obout sending a sample of Meh MDMA to one of these public drug labs and they have detected some kind of alcohol analog of the MDMA molecule (with an OH group) in it.
> Maybe it was "MDP2Pol" or "N-Hydroxy-MDMA"* but I could be wrong...
> 
> *Question to Chem Pros*:  How can MDMA be separated from its analogs containing an OH group, without running a column ?
> 
> * I remember reading somewhere that the N-Hydroxy analogs like to dimerize via the oxime and they fool the *GC/MS* analysys because they undergo pyrolytic disproportionation into the ketone oxime and the pure organic base (e.g. MDMA) by simultaneous reduction of the other half of the dimer.


By reducing the OH group the same way ephedrine is changed to the amphetamine.  iodine/hypophosphorus
Lithium/ammonia
Or other reduction methods.
I'd think that a gcms would be able to tell the difference between the OH product and the non OH product but
I honestly don't think these testing facilities do much more than the bare minimum and they do that poorly.id think that an extra Oxygen molecule would be obvious.


----------



## user666

vecktor said:


> Cooking MDMA salt at 170ºC is a pretty good way to destroy it.


What about cooking MDMA HCl at 117ºC (@ 3mm) to evaporate MDP2Pol ?


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> I'd think that a gcms would be able to tell the difference between the OH product and the non OH product but


Maybe not because the the GC/MS analysis is documented to be fooled by the unstable N-Hydroxy analogs which undergo *pyrolytic disproportionation* into the ketone oxime (e.g. MDP2P oxime) and the pure organic base (e.g. MDMA) by simultaneous reduction of the other half of the N-Hydroxy dimer.
So the MDMA would be produced in-situ from the N-Hydroxy dimer by its mere injection into the hot port of the GC.  Such produced MDMA would fool the subsequent MS then, too.

I am sniffing around the "-ol"s because they have a history of affecting people's GABA receptors like the Xanax that @indigoaura mentioned.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> By reducing the OH group the same way ephedrine is changed to the amphetamine.  iodine/hypophosphorus
> Lithium/ammonia
> Or other reduction methods.


But reacting-out the Hydroxyl would not necessarily leave us with MDMA.
I would rather just filter out/wash out any contaminant molecules that have an OH group sticking out.
*Question to Pros*: What compound likes to selectively attach to alcohols, i.e. the hydroxyl group while leaving the amino group and methylenedioxy bridge alone ?

MDMA does not have any hydroxyl groups sticking out so it should be differentiable by some kind of chemical or physical process.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> What about cooking MDMA HCl at 117ºC (@ 3mm) to evaporate MDP2Pol ?


An acetone or xylene wash would have gotten rid of that being as it's a liquid isn't it?


----------



## jedimafia

I've always believed cathione abuse lost the magic in myself and those around me. I came to that conclusion as to all the new comers taking Q-Dance pills and appearing/acting as i remember.

However their was this one batch of yellow Rolls Royces in 2015/16 that brought me right back and ticked all the right buttons.  Surprisingly as I was selling them then, nobody else saw anything special about them.  Not had anything to tickle my fancy since, even then everyone preferred Q-Dance!!!  Is the general consensus being that MD isn't racemic any more?  I've given up hope, it's about time I tried 5-MAPB


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> But reacting-out the Hydroxyl would not necessarily leave us with MDMA.
> I would rather just filter out/wash out any contaminant molecules that have an OH group sticking out.
> *Question to Pros*: What compound likes to selectively attach to alcohols, i.e. the hydroxyl group while leaving the amino group and methylenedioxy bridge alone ?
> 
> MDMA does not have any hydroxyl groups sticking out so it should be differentiable by some kind of chemical or physical process.




"But reacting-out the Hydroxyl would not necessarily leave us with MDMA"

Yes it would If the product is n,hydroxymdma the logical product of a OH reduction will be mdma.

"I would rather just filter out/wash out any contaminant molecules that have an OH group sticking out"

If it was that easy washing meh would be the way to turn it into magic.this isn't the case.

"What compound likes to selectively attach to alcohols, i.e. the hydroxyl group while leaving the amino group and methylenedioxy bridge alone ?"

You could halogenate the OH to make
N,bromomdma which would be shit and would still probably behave the same way mdma does so it probably won't just all of a sudden become easier to remove than the OH.
you could make an ester with a carboxylic acid like acetic acid giving n,acetoxymdma which again would be shit and hard to remove.
There really isn't much other than fractionally distilling the products to seperate them or reducing the OH group to mdma.apparently the HI method could cause demethylation of the 3,4,bridge so the lithium ammonia method would be best.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> An acetone or xylene wash would have gotten rid of that being as it's a liquid isn't it?


I don't think salts of MDP2Pol are liquids at room temperature.
Please correct me if I am wrong (I do not take offense at being corrected, I welcome it).


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Yes it would If the product is n,hydroxymdma the logical product of a OH reduction will be mdma.


Your right with this one, but I am also considering other compounds which have an OH group sticking out and have been documented to be contaminants in "street MDMA". Such as:

MDP2Pol and MDP1Pol,  _which are major byproducts according to *this*._
Piperonyl alcohol and Piperonal oxime
Alpha-Hydroxy-3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (CID 13591054)
1,3-Benzodioxole-5-ethan*ol*, alpha-methyl (CAS 6974-61-4)
Maybe some of them work similarly to Xanax, due to that OH group messing with GABA receptors like some alcohols.
Also, some of them decompose during GC testing and pretend to be MDMA...  Just Google for: *Hydroxy* "*Pyrolytic Disproportionation*"



draculic acid69 said:


> apparently the HI method could cause demethylation of the 3,4,bridge so the lithium ammonia method would be best.


What would the lithium/sodium ammonia method do to the pure 3,4-MDMA ?


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 

You may be remembering this: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2644

This is a sample that I sent in, and it is what I had access to almost exclusively from 2005 or so onward until more recently.


----------



## indigoaura

I will also add that out of all my meh samples I have discussed here, that sample was the worst, and the most "meh." All of the effects I complain about such as the sleepiness, coldness, sexual ambivalence, and sickness in the following week were the most extreme with that sample.


----------



## SunriseChampion

Negi said:


> This is useful, because based on the descriptions in here I had been assuming mehDMA to be be a complete turnoff even to a first timer. How would you compare mehDMA to just being on a decent dose of amphetamine or meth?



I was a tweaker for a bit years ago and have had methbomb pills aaand shit "MDMA" and I would say that as much as I hate meth now, shit "MDMA" is worse as it just feels like.....almost nothing. Maybe a glass of wine combined with a load of caffeine. Not quite the bumping rush of meth nor any of its associated albeit brief and fleeting euphoric rush.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> You may be remembering this: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=2644
> This is a sample that I sent in, and it is what I had access to almost exclusively from 2005 or so onward until more recently.


So it was you!  Can you find your discussion with @G_Chem about it ?
BTW: The *1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol* (CAS 6974-61-4) is another name for the "MDP2Pol", which is the major byproduct of reductive amination of the ketone MDP2P (a.k.a. PMK).

According to Rhodium:


> _Most of the MDP2P not converted to MDMA will instead have been reduced to MDPol, which will be left in the non-polar phase after the acid/base extraction. This can be isolated, distilled, and then re-oxidized (with chromate, bleach, etc.) to MDP2P and then reused [__quoted from here__]._


----------



## indigoaura

I will try to find it @user666 . There was a second person who also had a similar contaminant found through testing. I can't remember who that was. But, I do remember G_Chem commenting that since we both had such similar contaminants, maybe there was something to it.

Also of interest: after I got those test results back, I forwarded them to the supplier. The supplier was surprised, and said multiple acetone washes would be added to the process. After that, the product was whiter and the experience did improve somewhat, but never to a "magic" place.  The post-roll sickness did decrease somewhat though, in subsequent batches. The acetone washed version of that sample is what I sent to Vash, and I will be sending it off for advanced GCMS testing as well. If we take Vash at face value, then that sample showed an extra peak on GCMS analysis, a similar extra peak to what Vash's sample showed.


----------



## user666

One of the Pros conjectured that these weird peaks could mean that MDP2Pol was hiding in there:



vecktor said:


> There is certainly some weirdness in the 1H spectra, there are several broad peaks typical of amines (and to a lesser extent alcohols) this may be amine vs protonated amine, but equally it could be the alcohol MDP2Pol is hiding in there there are too many broad peaks IMHO. Running NMR in D2O or CD3OD will make the amine peaks disappear and simplify things.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Also of interest: after I got those test results back, I forwarded them to the supplier. The supplier was surprised, and said multiple *acetone washes* would be added to the process. After that, the product was whiter and the experience did improve somewhat, but never to a "magic" place.


If the '*ol* theory is sound than a specialized wash, designed to bond to the OH groups would improve it much better.

I hope that there is another way to wash out the '*ol* compounds than doing the *Birch Reduction* because I doubt you'd like to play with anhydrous ammonia and metallic sodium or lithium at home.


----------



## indigoaura

> it just feels like.....almost nothing



That is why we are having such a hard time defining what the effects are. It is kind of similar to a glass of wine, now that you mention it. It has that same slow quality, but, not the same loss of inhibition/embarrassment. 

That is actually something I wanted to bring up and get other people's feedback on. For me, MehDMA does not result in any notable loss of inhibition or loss of embarrassment. On magic MDMA, I might wander out into the party partially clothed, or end up making out with a girl, or give random friends back-rubs. I did things that I normally would not do because the weight of societal expectation was gone. It was a very "in the moment" experience where anything could happen. When you are an introverted person, taking away those typical inhibitions is significant. That is one of the reasons why it made sex exciting and different, in addition to the increased tactile sensation. 

There is no loss of inhibition there with the meh. Alcohol has more loss of inhibition. It is still very possible to feel awkward, embarrassed, uncertain, etc.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> in my current TLC experiments I've been applying reagents to the spots.  I've found the colours to be a lot more vibrant, and nuanced than when applying to raw crystal.


In reference to my recent sniffing around the MD-Ph alcohols as the potential "sleepy" contaminants of Meh MDMA, I thought you would find it useful to visualize them on your TLC plates.
To do that, you need to have a compound that preferentially reacts with any OH groups in your solvent system.

According to *this article*, the Tosyl Chloride selectively reacts with the OH groups in alcohols (including MDP2Pol, etc...) and in carboxylic acids, which the pure magic MDMA is not supposed to have !
Since Tosyl Chloride is a relatively large molecule, it will slow down the rise of any contaminants containing an OH group on the TLC plate.  Naturally, the remaining ingredients of the solvent system cannot contain any OH groups ...and that means no water nor alcohols, but I am sure that our resident Pros will be able to come up with some workable mixture.

Please do not ignore this because it is a potential lead to a reliable Meh MDMA test.

P.S.
Maybe the Tosyl Chloride can alter the solubility of these MD-Ph alcohols in comparison to MDMA, enough so they can be easily distinguished and removed by some solvent, but I am not experienced enough to engineer that.   Maybe these tosylates will even precipitate out of solution as solids,  Help!


----------



## user666

I do not know if this would work with salts, but dissolving a dry contaminated MDMA sample in some anhydrous and non-alcoholic solvent and adding in the Tosyl Chloride would cause the hydrochloride gas to be evolved if the sample contains OH groups. Hydrogen Chloride can be easily detected by a wet litmus paper or even the human nose.
This would serve as a simple test to determine whether the sample contains MD-Ph alcohols or carboxylic acids ...which the pure MDMA is not supposed to have !

*Question to Pros*: Will the amino group in MDMA be tosylized by the Tosyl Chloride, too ?


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> I don't think salts of MDP2Pol are liquids at room temperature.
> Please correct me if I am wrong (I do not take offense at being corrected, I welcome it).





user666 said:


> I don't think salts of MDP2Pol are liquids at room temperature.
> Please correct me if I am wrong (I do not take offense at being corrected, I welcome it).



It doesn't form salts at all. I can't prove it but I seriously doubt that it's a solid.
Everywhere says it ether soluble so probably xylene,alcohol and acetone soluble as well.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Your right with this one, but I am also considering other compounds which have an OH group sticking out and have been documented to be contaminants in "street MDMA". Such as:
> 
> MDP2Pol and MDP1Pol,  _which are major byproducts according to *this*._
> Piperonyl alcohol and Piperonal oxime
> Alpha-Hydroxy-3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (CID 13591054)
> 1,3-Benzodioxole-5-ethan*ol*, alpha-methyl (CAS 6974-61-4)
> Maybe some of them work similarly to Xanax, due to that OH group messing with GABA receptors like some alcohols.
> Also, some of them decompose during GC testing and pretend to be MDMA...  Just Google for: *Hydroxy* "*Pyrolytic Disproportionation*"
> 
> 
> What would the lithium/sodium ammonia method do to the pure 3,4-MDMA ?



All those hydroxy compounds would be washed out in a recrystallization or be left behind in the gassing step except the hydroxyketone which will give the 
Ephedrine equivalent of mdma and if subjected to a reduction the same way as pseudo ephedrine is u would get mdma.that could be the culprit though as pseudo ephedrine is a lot more meh than meth is so it might be the same with mdma.the lithium ammonia method won't hurt the mdma theoretically as long as excess lithium isn't used or over reduction might occur on the ring.u don't want that so using already formed mdma in a lithium ammonia rxn will fuck it.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> All those hydroxy compounds would be washed out in a recrystallization or be left behind in the gassing step except the hydroxyketone which will give the
> Ephedrine equivalent of mdma


What about the N-Hydroxy-MDMA (a.k.a.: MDHMA)  which has a basic amino group that can form a salt with HCl ?


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Your right with this one, but I am also considering other compounds which have an OH group sticking out and have been documented to be contaminants in "street MDMA". Such as:
> 
> MDP2Pol and MDP1Pol,  _which are major byproducts according to *this*._
> Piperonyl alcohol and Piperonal oxime
> Alpha-Hydroxy-3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (CID 13591054)
> 1,3-Benzodioxole-5-ethan*ol*, alpha-methyl (CAS 6974-61-4)



Just because these show up in analysis data doesn't mean theres more than a % or two of them in the product and I doubt any of them would have any effect.also if these impurities are the culprit then they would have to only occur from using a new production route that wasn't around before meh appeared so is this list of impurities from before or after meh?
What route was used?
Are they common to multiple routes or a single route?


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> So it was you!  Can you find your discussion with @G_Chem about it ?
> BTW: The *1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol* (CAS 6974-61-4) is another name for the "MDP2Pol", which is the major byproduct of reductive amination of the ketone MDP2P (a.k.a. PMK).
> 
> According to Rhodium:


And again it will all stay in the solvent layers and not end up in the product in more than trace amounts


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Just because these show up in analysis data doesn't mean theres more than a % or two of them in the product and I doubt any of them would have any effect.
> ...
> And again it will all stay in the solvent layers and not end up in the product in more than trace amounts


I dunno. @indigoaura had a lot of it in the sample she has submitted to the lab and wrote that it was her most-Meh sample of all.



draculic acid69 said:


> What route was used?
> Are they common to multiple routes or a single route?


For example, see *this article*.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> What about the N-Hydroxy-MDMA (a.k.a.: MDHMA)  which has a basic amino group that can form a salt with HCl ?


Apparently the MDOH in pihkal is  n,OHMDA  and is described as not meh in effect and the mdhma doesn't easily form salts with phosphoric, sulfuric, hydrochloric,perchloric acids and required a tedious process with oxalic acid which I think might be bad for you.it was also far more difficult to make the mdhma.the fact it doesn't form the hydrochloride with usual methods let's it's seperation via freebasing the meh to oil non polar extracting and regassing would seperate any mdma from mdhma.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> What about the N-Hydroxy-MDMA (a.k.a.: MDHMA)  which has a basic amino group that can form a salt with HCl ?


Read the pihkal entry on it.it doesn't easily form the HCL salt.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> I dunno. @indigoaura had a lot of it in the sample she has submitted to the lab and wrote that it was her most-Meh sample of all.
> 
> 
> For example, see *this article*.


Its a pdf.cant read it on this shit phone


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> If the '*ol* theory is sound than a specialized wash, designed to bond to the OH groups would improve it much better.
> 
> I hope that there is another way to wash out the '*ol* compounds than doing the *Birch Reduction* because I doubt you'd like to play with anhydrous ammonia and metallic sodium or lithium at home.


There are no magic washes that remove OH group compounds and leave everything else behind.they don't exist


----------



## ComicSansMS

Negi said:


> There are a couple of archives:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darknet Market Archives (2013–2015)
> 
> 
> Mirrors of ~89 Tor-Bitcoin darknet markets & forums 2011–2015, and related material.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gwern.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I grabbed one, if you can remember any more information to narrow down the thread let me know.



@Negi Big thumbs up mate, from my post 4851 you and other's have really gotten back into it.

I need to read through the posts and do some searching

As soon as I see the seller's name (Started with a Ph or a Pf) I will know it and from that name you would be able to key search for all substantial threads with his name in them  

In amongst the "Where is my MdMAyyy brah" or "My droogs have been seized mate" posts, there were a lot of intelligent posts and pictures of testing agent reactions with reports as well.  There were also people that sounded like backyard chemists/had studied chemistry or in the medical field posting things that went over my basic knowledge of why vinegar descale kettles   Anyone making posts saying their MDMA lacked something during the roll got buried in a bot like fashion or the seller would flood the thread with a big sale which would bring everyone out of the woods. 

Anecdotally, IT WAS the amazing/magical MDMA when smaller amounts (less than 2.5grams) were purchased directly from overseas and took their time to get here and then the supposed 5+ gram orders that were just flying through the mail & customs in standard envelopes were often but not always the meh batches.  Often they would test similar but.  Supposedly he also sold to some Australian vendors a different product than most Australians who were well versed in MDMA, were usually receiving and those batches were always MAGIC but obviously 3-5 X the price depending on amount.

The Australian seller was not ETM btw and he's not the key to this information either.  Sorry if the above is a bit confusing with the way I wrote it but it's a touchy subject for a lot of reasons and to a lot of people, but he possessed the magic MDMA, along with other batches that ranged from pure magic to semi-magic to meh to blah.

Where's Peter Nash when you need him?  Though I don't know if he was a moderator during this time.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> There are no magic washes that remove OH group compounds and leave everything else behind.they don't exist


What about the Tosyl Chloride, Organosilanes and *other chemoselective methods* that preferentially bind to the OH groups ?


----------



## indigoaura

@ComicSansMS


> Anecdotally, IT WAS the amazing/magical MDMA when smaller amounts (less than 2.5grams) were purchased directly from overseas and took their time to get here and then the supposed 5+ gram orders that were just flying through the mail & customs in standard envelopes were often but not always the meh batches. Often they would test similar but. Supposedly he also sold to some Australian vendors a different product than most Australians who were well versed in MDMA, were usually receiving and those batches were always MAGIC but obviously 3-5 X the price depending on amount.



This is interesting to me, because I have come across an Australian vendor who claims to have been around since the original Silk Road and advertises that his product is different than other products being sold. If the photos are accurate, the product looks like other magic product photos that have been shared here: clear jagged crystals. I know we cannot openly discuss names and whatnot here, but would you recognize the Australian vendor's name?

If I understand the rest of your post, you are saying that there was a vendor who sold ranges of MDMA from "pure magic to semi-magic to meh to blah." Did he openly discuss/advertise this?


----------



## PlayHard

Both the same product. Flash on and daylight taken photo - tests fine with test kit. Yet to indulge and take some.. Anyone who remembers me previously posting knows I was skeptical of tan/cola mdma and always got a nice clear product which I did have images of before taking a break. 

url=https://ibb.co/XS24DDQ]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




[/url]


----------



## indigoaura

@PlayHard I don't think anyone can tell anything from photos really, as there is a pretty wide variation in reports of the appearance of magic/meh. However, that color and those rounded edges to the crystal look like meh product I have had. I know @G_Chem has speculated here before that a more jagged crystal edge may possibly indicate a better product. Hope that your experience is magic though!


----------



## user666

PlayHard said:


> Yet to indulge and take some...


If you do then please do it right and collect some hard data.

1) Fast for 6h before, drink only unsweetened water.
2) Take a photo of your pupil after being 1 minute in bright light (without the flash)
3) If you have a glucometer (or know a diabetic that has one) then measure your blood sugar right before consumption.
4) Weigh 1.5mg of the crystal per 1kg of your body weight (0.68mg/lbs)
5) Dissolve the crystal completely in pure water and consume
6) Throughout the trip don't eat and drink only unsweetened water with some kitchen salt added (don't add so much that it becomes yucky to you). Note how much you drank.
7) Note the come up time
8 ) Retake a photo of your pupil after being 1 minute in the same bright light as in pt.2  (without the flash)
9) Measure your blood sugar again and note the time.
10) Write down your objective effects (locked jaw, eye wiggles, temperature, pulse, bowel movements, urination, etc...)
11) Note the time of your peaking.
12) Retake a photo of your pupil after being 1 minute in the same bright light as in pt.2  (without the flash)
13) Measure your blood sugar again and note the time.
14) Write down your subjective effects (energy, fast music appreciation, sociability, empathy, tactile sensations, etc...)
15) Write down your objective effects (locked jaw, eye wiggles, temperature, pulse, bowel movements, urination, etc...)
16) Note the comedown time
17) Note hangover time if any.

Report but do not post pictures of your eyes. Just measure the relative pupil dilation. Tell us what other drugs you had and when.

Note:
_Don't throw the remainder away if it turns out to be crap !  Save it for testing later._


----------



## indigoaura

@PlayHard Upload your report through the Wiki as well: https://mdma.noosworx.com


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> What about the Tosyl Chloride, Organosilanes and *other chemoselective methods* that preferentially bind to the OH groups ?


I'll look into it but I'm not knowledgeable on them.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> If you do then please do it right and collect some hard data.
> 
> 1) Fast for 6h before, drink only unsweetened water.
> 2) Take a photo of your pupil after being 1 minute in bright light (without the flash)
> 3) If you have a glucometer (or know a diabetic that has one) then measure your blood sugar right before consumption.
> 4) Weigh 1.5mg of the crystal per 1kg of your body weight (0.68mg/lbs)
> 5) Dissolve the crystal completely in pure water and consume
> 6) Throughout the trip don't eat and drink only unsweetened water with some kitchen salt added (don't add so much that it becomes yucky to you). Note how much you drank.
> 7) Note the come up time
> 8 ) Retake a photo of your pupil after being 1 minute in the same bright light as in pt.2  (without the flash)
> 9) Measure your blood sugar again and note the time.
> 10) Write down your objective effects (locked jaw, eye wiggles, temperature, pulse, bowel movements, urination, etc...)
> 11) Note the time of your peaking.
> 12) Retake a photo of your pupil after being 1 minute in the same bright light as in pt.2  (without the flash)
> 13) Measure your blood sugar again and note the time.
> 14) Write down your subjective effects (energy, fast music appreciation, sociability, empathy, tactile sensations, etc...)
> 15) Write down your objective effects (locked jaw, eye wiggles, temperature, pulse, bowel movements, urination, etc...)
> 16) Note the comedown time
> 17) Note hangover time if any.
> 
> Report but do not post pictures of your eyes. Just measure the relative pupil dilation. Tell us what other drugs you had and when.
> 
> Note:
> _Don't throw the remainder away if it turns out to be crap !  Save it for testing later._


What's with the whole no sweet drinks and don't eat shit?


----------



## indigoaura

draculic acid69 said:


> What's with the whole no sweet drinks and don't eat shit?



He wants to see if the MDMA alone raises glucose levels without interference from other foods/beverages.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> What's with the whole no sweet drinks and don't eat shit?


Proper stimulation of the noradrenergic system causes increases energy, mydriasis, trismus, thermogenesis*, increased PR and BP, increased blood glucose levels from gluconeogenesis, sodium retention and antidiuresis and influences digestive track motility (bowel movements).

* especially in fat deposits between the shoulder blades and the neck.


----------



## draculic acid69

Is the point to gather biological data on mdma or the difference between meh and magic?


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Is the point to gather biological data on mdma or the difference between meh and magic?


The latter. There are still a lot of people who do not take this seriously, so this documentation is needed.
Also, physiological responses give objective clues as to what's wrong with the drug.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I've done some big spot TLC and I believe I've found a second, much smaller component to the mehdma sample.  Results are here https://mdma.noosworx.com/index.php?title=Thin_Layer_Chromatography#Big_spot_reagent_tests

I repeated things a few times and consistently see this second spot above the main spot, with a gap between the two.  It is much smaller, and all of the reagents I've tested (mecke, froedhe, liebermann, marquis, mandline) gave the same or similar colours for both the big spot and the small spot.

To my eyes it's a thing, but as I'm a novice in TLC I appreciate I might be interpreting it wrong.  I could not see the second spot on smaller applications.


----------



## user666

Yes, Spot #2 does look like a separate compound of low quantity.
If you could achieve greater separation that's visible under UV (because reagents destroy samples) and scrape enough of these small dots, then it could be sent to a lab for an id.

What is Spot #3 ?


----------



## indigoaura

@ThreePointCircle I am looking now. Are you talking about the spot at the very top of the liquid? I definitely see it. But, I have no experience with TLC. Hopefully someone else will chime in. 

It makes sense to me that the contaminant, if it exists, would react similarly to MDMA with reagent tests. 

Update: Today I sent two Meh samples for GCMS analysis. Hoping to receive the full GCMS results from both. Fingers crossed that this yields some good information.


----------



## indigoaura

@ThreePointCircle

Honestly, if you could somehow separate the spot above, and also the spot that you describe here: "After TLC, the yellow spot was still visible, but lower that where the main reagent reaction occurred. It was also visible under UV below the main spot. It did not react with any of the reagents though." I feel like both of those could be sent in for analysis. 

I will pay for a payment code for you to use to send it in to Drugs Data if you can get the contaminant separated. 

Also, if you can walk me through what you did here, step by painstaking step, I can attempt the exact same process as you and see what happens to my Meh samples.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Yes, Spot #2 does look like a separate compound of low quantity.
> If you could achieve greater separation that's visible under UV (because reagents destroy samples) and scrape enough of these small dots, then it could be sent to a lab for an id.
> 
> What is Spot #3 ?



Glad you think the same as me about spot 2.  I initially thought it may be an issue with how the drops came out of the reagent bottle because sometimes the propagation of the drop can push material around, but after I repeated a few times and definitely got some bullseyes, I'm convinced there is a genuine gap between spots 1 and 2 as you've labelled them.

Spot 3 is actually part of a line of garbage that goes left to right across the plate at the solvent front at the end of the process.  I get the same with TLC of an unspotted plate.  I read about it and apparently its a common thing - silica plates can absorb stuff over time.  I tried a pre-washing method (methanol) previously and it did reduce the front.  Other than that, it doesn't seem to be affecting things so I've ignored it.


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 Spot 3 is more visible than spot 2. I wondered about it as well.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> If you could achieve greater separation that's visible under UV (because reagents destroy samples) and scrape enough of these small dots, then it could be sent to a lab for an id.



I'm wondering about either a longer plate, a 2D application in the same solvent system, or playing with the solvent system a bit more.  I also have the materials for column chroma.



indigoaura said:


> @ThreePointCircle I am looking now. Are you talking about the spot at the very top of the liquid? I definitely see it. But, I have no experience with TLC. Hopefully someone else will chime in.



I'm talking about spot 2 as @user666 has labelled it.  Ignore spot 3.



indigoaura said:


> It makes sense to me that the contaminant, if it exists, would react similarly to MDMA with reagent tests.


Yeah, its reasonable I suppose.  I think the reagents are probably only good enough to identify number of constituents, and maybe identify something interesting if someone could compare a magic sample to meh.  I only have meh.




indigoaura said:


> Honestly, if you could somehow separate the spot above, and also the spot that you describe here: "After TLC, the yellow spot was still visible, but lower that where the main reagent reaction occurred. It was also visible under UV below the main spot. It did not react with any of the reagents though." I feel like both of those could be sent in for analysis.
> 
> I will pay for a payment code for you to use to send it in to Drugs Data if you can get the contaminant separated.
> 
> Also, if you can walk me through what you did here, step by painstaking step, I can attempt the exact same process as you and see what happens to my Meh samples.



I'm curious about the yellow spot as well.  Its visible to the naked eye but doesn't react with any of the reagents.  I'm pretty sure its the yellow colour of the original sample.  I wonder if these labs can analyse off cut up TLC plates?  Don't know if that's a thing.  Otherwise I'd have to separate this stuff in a column.  Oof.

I'm not so bothered by the money for sending the samples in.  I'm just a bit reluctant at the moment because by everything that's been said on this thread, I don't have a lot of faith in these labs.  I suppose if presented with the tlc eveidence it would encourage them to do a more thorough analysis?

I'll write up a step by step procedure.  I'm no expert in TLC and it isn't hard to replicate what I've done so far.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> @user666 Spot 3 is more visible than spot 2. I wondered about it as well.


Yeah sorry, spot 3 is a red herring.  I also got some amazing spots with marquis, until I realised I hadn't let the plate dry long enough and it was reacting with the solvent system lol.  What I've posted today though is pretty solid I think.


----------



## indigoaura

I think earth at Drugs Data is intrigued by what we are presenting, and he wants to look at it in more detail. He really wanted to analyze what Vash had separated from the Meh sample, but it was lost. I think if we can send him a separated compound from a known meh sample, he will be thrilled and make sure the lab is looking at that contaminant in detail.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> I think earth at Drugs Data is intrigued by what we are presenting, and he wants to look at it in more detail. He really wanted to analyze what Vash had separated from the Meh sample, but it was lost. I think if we can send him a separated compound from a known meh sample, he will be thrilled and make sure the lab is looking at that contaminant in detail.


Ok cool, well I try and advance it a little bit - maybe try the 2D TLC to really separate the spots and then maybe talk to Earth?  I could also try opening a dialogue with Wedinos since they're closest to me.  Don't know if anyone has had any contact with them yet.


----------



## indigoaura

I have not talked to Wedinos yet since they are not in my region. May be worthwhile to open a conversation with them. In the meantime, I will ask earth about the TLC plates.


----------



## indigoaura

So, just to show you some of what I saw with the Lieberman testing, it was hardly ever just a black result. In various samples, I saw red, purple, brown etc.

Notice in the first pic how it is purple in one area?

Notice in the second pic how it has formed a bubble in the center with a different colored reaction?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I'm thinking a big part of the colour differences depends on the concentration of the sample.  As they get slightly smeared through TLC, the colours tend to be a lot more, um, colourful.  Liebermann showed purple and brown for me.


----------



## indigoaura

I am noticing that you can buy TLC plates with fluorescent indicators. Would that make the separation more visible?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Fluorescent as in uv 254nm?


----------



## indigoaura

> For UV detection of colorless substances, our classical silica TLC plates are available with two types of inorganic fluorescent indicators: green fluorescing F254, or blue fluorescing, acid-stable F254s. Both indicators fluoresce in UV light at an excitation wavelength of 254 nm. Samples which absorb shortwave UV at 254 nm are detected due to fluorescence quenching. We also offer special high-fluorescence LuxPlates®, which contain a larger amount of fluorescent indicator for more enhanced detection.



From: https://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/...al-silica-plates/7gmb.qB.mfAAAAFAVOtkiQpx,nav


----------



## Satans666kush

Most likely what happend was it wasn't mdma but something very similar like methylone or some RC chemicals idk my shit has always been clean besides once I got butylone or however you spell it


----------



## Satans666kush

No. 13 Baby said:


> If a Marquis test showed dark purple to black for my MDMA crystal, does that mean there is definitely not any or at least not a lethal amount of PMA/PMMA in my MDMA?




Absolutely not!!!


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @ThreePointCircle I am looking now. Are you talking about the spot at the very top of the liquid? I definitely see it. But, I have no experience with TLC. Hopefully someone else will chime in.
> 
> It makes sense to me that the contaminant, if it exists, would react similarly to MDMA with reagent tests.
> 
> Update: Today I sent two Meh samples for GCMS analysis. Hoping to receive the full GCMS results from both. Fingers crossed that this yields some good information.


Did you make them aware of the problems of past gcms testing and what your trying to achieve?


----------



## indigoaura

draculic acid69 said:


> Did you make them aware of the problems of past gcms testing and what your trying to achieve?



Yes, 100%. They are very aware of the situation.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> Yes, 100%. They are very aware of the situation.


Hopefully it yeilds results


----------



## mars2025

indigoaura said:


> how your theory took into account the new users who found meh to be meh and magic to be magic, and you never replied.



Bypassing the commonly known factors of diet, fatty foods, stress, fatigue, undisclosed meds (see erowid for all of the above), and people for whom MDMA just doesn't work due to underlying health conditions (but who might tell a white lie and say that "magic" worked for them), you're left with:

1.  False negative.  First time user took your MDMA and indeed experienced the standard effects but either didn't fully recognize them or chose not to discuss them with you.  And you assumed MDMA didn't work because that person did not look like the 90s raver you remember.  To be able to accurately bioassay MDMA material in others, check for example Ann Shulgin's questionnaire on Erowid so you know the standard spectrum of MDMA effects. 

It can be tricky.  Consider some of Shulgin's reports in PiHKAL:

"MDMA intrigued me because everyone I asked, who had used it, answered the question, 'What's it like?' in the same way: 'I don't know.'  'What happened?'  'Nothing.' And now I understand those answers.  I too think nothing happened... "

Same source:
"The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I'd felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to.  So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: 'I shouldn't have done that, oh yes, I shouldn't have done that, oh no, I shouldn't have done that; it was a mistake.'  Then I would start over again from the beginning.  I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do.  After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back.  But so was my plain, ornery tiredness.
 (https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal109.shtml)

2.  You probably had poor quality material, meaning low purity or degraded due to improper storage.  If your material is 50% MDMA and 50% unreacted precursor or other synthesis byproducts, it won't work.  It's common sense, and Erowid faqs from the 90s say so too.  You can't take 2x more and make up for poor quality with greater quantity.  If that material is pressed into a pill, it won't become better either.  Acetone wash won't fix it after the fact.  Acetone wash is mentioned as a final step in PiHKAL, but from my limited understanding it's insufficient to achieve a pure product.  Proper care needs to be taken during the actual synthesis steps; there are obviously tricks of the trade here.  

This problem occurs today just as it did 20 years ago.  It is also not specific to synthesis route or to MDMA.  Yes, there may have been a "lucky" reaction whose precursors or byproducts were themselves psychoactive MDxx, but that's not MDMA anymore.  To prove that something is wrong with "today's MDMA," you really need to prove that something is wrong with MDMA made by Dutch megalabs, as that's the majority of the world's supply.  

Now, when you started shopping more carefully, you reported product that's pretty good, albeit not as good as what you remember for 2000-2005.  This remaining difference can probably be due to selective memory / health / mental state / cumulative lifetime use / familiarity / age.  For example, the lovey feeling relies on oxytocin, which peaks during childbirth and the period after childbirth.  So it's highest in a newborn child, declines as you grow out of your teens and into your 20s, then spikes again if/when you have children and declines thereafter.  (The parenthood peak is obviously much stronger for women.)

It is also still possible that some of the best pills you remember from 2000-2005 also had MDA in them or another MDxx.  Why didn't the lab pick that up?  Two possibilities.  You believe that the labs in 2020 are missing or not reporting on some impurities in your sample.  Then why do you exclude the possibility that the same lab in 2004 reported MDMA/MDA mix as "MDMA only."  Remember, the US government does not want edata to serve as "quality control" for drug labs, only harm reduction.  So maybe they did not consistently report MDA/MDMA mixes back in 2005.  True, some pills do show up as MDA/MDMA.  "Anecdotally," many users report that MDA or MDMA / MDA is better than pure MDA for energy, touch and so on (also more neurotoxic and harsher comedowns).   Among others, Rainey just said MDA/MDMA was closest to what he/she remembers of the old presses.

Your own reports from 2000-2005 show some pills as being subjectively better than others; yet nearly all those pills tested as MDMA and nothing else.  Which leaves you with what explanations?
Pills were the same, you just happened to have a better roll.
Better pill contained better (higher purity) MDMA
Better pill contained mostly MDMA and a fair bit of MDA.  The latter went unreported.

Logically speaking, all of this seems to undermine the claim that something is wrong with today's MDMA.

To answer your other question, I read everything on this thread, including the papers you posted.  I simply reached different conclusions than you did.  So when you say "read the papers," I can't respond without knowing which papers you have in mind.  When you confidently say, it's "been addressed," you are implying some kind of progress of knowledge that really isn't on firm ground

And all the other stuff I posted, like the cost of doing byproduct analysis, was in response to other people's questions.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Is the point to gather biological data on mdma or the difference between meh and magic?


After reading Mars2025 post, do you see the point of documenting the objective physiological differences between Meh and Magic ?



mars2025 said:


> Same source:
> "_The feeling of insufficient energy and lack of spark that I'd felt before had become something quite strong, and might be characterized as a firm feeling of negativity about everything that had to be done and everything I had been looking forward to.  So I set about my several tasks with no pleasure or enjoyment and I hummed a little tune to myself during these activities which had words that went: 'I shouldn't have done that, oh yes, I shouldn't have done that, oh no, I shouldn't have done that; it was a mistake.'  Then I would start over again from the beginning.  I was stuck in a gray space for quite a while, and there was nothing to do but keep doing what I had to do.  After about 6 hours, I could see the whole mental state disintegrating and my pleasant feelings were coming back.  But so was my plain, ornery tiredness.
> (_https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal109.shtml)



That was with a lower dose. The same source writes something completely different after taking 120mg of racemic MDMA ...and he was not a skinny virgin user, mind you:

_"I feel absolutely clean inside, and there is nothing but pure euphoria. I have never felt so great, or believed this to be possible. The cleanliness, clarity, and marvelous feeling of solid inner strength continued throughout the rest of the day, and evening, and through the next day. I am overcome by the profundity of the experience, and how much more powerful it was than previous experiences, for no apparent reason, other than a continually improving state of being. All the next day I felt like 'a citizen of the universe' rather than a citizen of the planet, completely disconnecting time and flowing easily from one activity to the next.

As the material came on I felt that I was being enveloped, and my attention had to be directed to it. I became quite fearful, and my face felt cold and ashen. I felt that I wanted to go back, but I knew there was no turning back. Then the fear started to leave me, and I could try taking little baby steps, like taking first steps after being reborn. The woodpile is so beautiful, about all the joy and beauty that I can stand. I am afraid to turn around and face the mountains, for fear they will overpower me. But I did look, and I am astounded. Everyone must get to experience a profound state like this. I feel totally peaceful. I have lived all my life to get here, and I feel I have come home. I am complete."
https://erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal109.shtml)_



mars2025 said:


> This problem occurs today just as it did 20 years ago.


No, the problem is more ubiquitous nowadays when you consider the *objective* physiological reactions of young virgin users - not old tired polydrug users.



mars2025 said:


> It is also not specific to synthesis route or to MDMA.


How can you be so sure?



mars2025 said:


> Yes, there may have been a "lucky" reaction whose precursors or byproducts were themselves psychoactive MDxx, but that's not MDMA anymore.


If the contaminants are a minority like @ThreePointCircle has just detected and @indigoaura's lab result have reported, then it would be more correct to state that it is *not pure* MDMA anymore.



mars2025 said:


> To prove that something is wrong with "today's MDMA," you really need to prove that something is wrong with MDMA made by Dutch megalabs, as that's the majority of the world's supply.


That's what this thread is about.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> From: https://www.emdmillipore.com/US/en/...al-silica-plates/7gmb.qB.mfAAAAFAVOtkiQpx,nav



Ah ok, those are the standard ones.  Basically they include a substance to fluoresce under uv 254nm.  I'm not an expert on the different options, but I'm guessing their green one would be better for digital cameras as they normal have more pixels given over to green than blue or red.

I've been using glass backed plates.  I presume aluminium would be fine but I haven't tried.  I want to try 2D TLC but I need to get some bigger square plates to do that.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> I'm not an expert on the different options, but I'm guessing their green one would be better for digital cameras as they normal have more pixels given over to green than blue or red.


That's true about the green ones, but the blue ones are acid-stable.  Do you plan to use acids in your solvent system?  Does your sample contain any acids ?  ...who knows.
Anyway, if you plan to only use stains (e.g. iodine vapors, K permanganate, etc...) or field reagents to visualize them, then you can get plain plates without the fluorescent indicators and you will not need a UV light.

On the other hand, analytes reacted with these reagents are destroyed and unsuitable for scraping off and sending to a lab for proper id.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> That's true about the green ones, but the blue ones are acid-stable.



Interesting, I hadn't clocked that that is a thing.  I've been using the normal F254 Merck plates (1.15341) not the acid-stable F254S.  Maybe I should try to get some of the acid-stable ones but looking through the catalogue, there seems to be a lot fewer options on that.


----------



## user666

As long as you are using an alkaline solvent system (e.g. with ammonia) you will not have acidic conditions.
But if you switch to a neutral solvent e.g. acetonitrile, and your sample is acidic, then maybe...

A Ph indicator, e.g. Litmus paper, would indicate acidic conditions, if you had them.


----------



## indigoaura

@mars2025

It would help me to understand how old you are and your length of history with MDMA/psychedelics. That would help me to better understand where you are coming from with your posts.

1. There are observable phenomenon such as mydriasis which should occur with MDMA use. It has nothing to do with assumption. It has to do with lack of observable physical characteristics of taking the drug.

I own Pikhal and have read the sections on MDMA. I am familiar with all of the passages you have quoted, and they have been quoted in this thread before. As @user666 already commented on, these were dosage issues. 100 mg of MDMA did not cross the threshold to a peak, but 120 mg of MDMA did. We specifically discussed this earlier in the thread when theorizing that raising the dose of the MehDMA would correct the issue, but it did not.

2. You seem to be stating the same thing we are stating, that something is not right with the purity of the the MDMA, and increasing the dose does not work. Which brings us back to the question of what is wrong with the sample. If the sample is not "pure," then what is wrong with it specifically? Why does one sample that is "MDMA" according to the lab feel different from another sample that is "MDMA" according to the lab? There has to be a reason for it, especially when multiple users are providing the same feedback on the same sample. Obviously, something is "off" with it. What is it?

You said, "This problem occurs today just as it did 20 years ago," but that is not the case. These kinds of widespread, "sub-par" reports were not circulating 20 years ago, at least not in my social circles. If a pill was "bad," you sent it to a lab and it was actually DXM or something that was not MDMA at all. For the most part, pills were either MDMA and good, or not MDMA and bad. I only recall ONE time that I had a pill that was MDMA and had sub-par effects. Were you rolling 20 years ago and involved in the scene at that time?

Oxytocin is not the primary cause of the effects of MDMA, which has already been discussed at length in this thread.

_"Users said the drug made them feel euphoric, more verbal, and closer to other individuals. The typical dosage range of MDMA for recreational use varies from 50 to 150 mg, but the amount per tablet in different batches of tablets may vary 70-fold or more, from almost 0 to well over 100 mg. The ability of MDMA to increase the concentration of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine in the synapse (Johnson et al., 1986; Yamamoto and Spanos, 1988; Fitzgerald and Reid, 1990; Gough et al., 1991; Rothman et al., 2001) probably underlies its production of improved mood and of sensory alterations" (Pifl 346)._

Yes, it is possible that labs were not picking up on active ingredients before. That is one of our theories, and has been stated in our proposed thesis statements earlier in the thread. One of the possibilities is that old MDMA contained active ingredients that were not being detected by the lab.  We have discussed the Leuckart synth in relation to this theory. As for your MDA comments, I used MDA and have deliberately combined MDA/MDMA and am familiar with those effects and the combo effects, and it is not what the MDMA only pills felt like. Also, labs were deliberately testing for MDA/MDE/MDMA and reporting those differences. MDA was not an unknown or untested compound.

Yes, my own old reports from 2000-2005 include variations in strength/quality of roll. However, it all still felt like MDMA and that is the point. Sometimes, you needed a 2nd pill to really get where you needed to go, but you still got there. Sometimes the effects were shorter or longer, but you still got there. Sometimes there were slight variations in the tone of the experience, _but you still got there. _I am VERY familiar with the variations in MDMA experiences that occur due to diet, fasting, mood, set, setting, etc. There is a range of effects, absolutely. However, there is a specific experience that IS the MDMA experience that is completely lacking from MehDMA. MehDMA exists OUTSIDE of the range of typical MDMA experiences. It lacks the fundamental basics of an MDMA experience. Have you personally encountered this in any of the MDMA you have consumed? If not, then you really do not understand what the posters in this thread are describing.

I am not sure what your vested interest is here. You came onto the thread, pushing hard for Q-Dance pills. You even sent me private messages encouraging me to buy Q-Dance pills. I cannot help but wonder what your motivation is. I always find it a bit odd when a new user to Bluelight comes to this thread to argue heavily for the quality of one specific brand of pill.

If you disagree with the purpose of this thread, the research we are doing, and the direction it is going in, then you do not have to feel obligated to post here. There are many threads on Bluelight.

I am personally going to continue to research for physical evidence of what is occurring, through more advanced testing/GCMS data, TLC Plates etc. If there are no contaminants present, then no contaminants will be found. Based on my interpretation of the published reports & anecdotal reports, I think it is plausible that an active contaminant is going undetected. If I am wrong, then I am wrong and nothing will be found.

As I said before, I did find your hybrid theory to be quite interesting. There are genetic variations that could make one sub-population more sensitive to a contaminant than another sub-population, which is not something that we have discussed in detail here. Overall, reports have had multiple users to one batch of MDMA experiencing the same effects. If there had been a lot of variation in how people reacted to the same batch, it would have seemed more like an issue with the individual user rather than the batch.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> I am not sure what your vested interest is here. You came onto the thread, pushing hard for Q-Dance pills. You even sent me private messages encouraging me to buy Q-Dance pills. I cannot help but wonder what your motivation is. I always find it a bit odd when a new user to Bluelight comes to this thread to argue heavily for the quality of one specific brand of pill.



Haha.  Yeah, not the first time something like that has happened via this thread.  Makes a bit more sense now.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> There are genetic variations that could make one sub-population more sensitive to a contaminant than another sub-population, which is not something that we have discussed in detail here.


That is true, but that variation is small.
There are variations even for pure MDMA, e.g. variation of gluconeogenesis, which is smaller than variation of mydriasis, which is smaller than variation of male ED and finally, which is smaller than variation of trismus.
Taken to the extreme, there are even mutants out there that cannot metabolize MDMA and will be killed by 120mg of it. ...but the odds of that happening are smaller than winning the lottery.

Qualitatively we all have different organisms, but the quantitative differences are negligible,


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Haha.  Yeah, not the first time something like that has happened via this thread.  Makes a bit more sense now.


Then I have a piece of advice for him.  Find out why the pills of his competition are Meh, publish the difference illustrating it with two different spectrograms and enjoy the increased sales.
If he does that, I will be the 1st one to take a drive to Amsterdam and buy 100g of these superior Q-dance pills.  I am so sick of Meh and I have only 200mg of magic left.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Then I have a piece of advice for him.  Find out why the pills of his competition are Meh, publish the difference illustrating it with two different spectrograms and enjoy the increased sales.
> If he does that, I will be the 1st to take a drive to Amsterdam and buy 100g of these superior Q-dance pills.


Excellent!

I should clarify, I wasn't talking about @mars2025 but someone else behaving similarly


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> I should clarify, I wasn't talking about @mars2025 but someone else behaving similarly


It doesn't matter who.  It is a good marketing advice for any proponent of a certain product.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> I am not sure what your vested interest is here. You came onto the thread, pushing hard for Q-Dance pills. You even sent me private messages encouraging me to buy Q-Dance pills. I cannot help but wonder what your motivation is. I always find it a bit odd when a new user to Bluelight comes to this thread to argue heavily for the quality of one specific brand of pill.


They have likely had good results with those pills. Q-Dance produces hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pills. They don't need to go around and shill them.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> They have likely had good results with those pills. Q-Dance produces hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pills. They don't need to go around and shill them.



That was my first impression, for sure. If I had access to Q-dance pills, I would give them a go.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to imply that mars2025 is some kind of Q-dance operative. I just don't quite understand where he is coming from with his posts.


----------



## indigoaura

@mars2025 You said to "check for example Ann Shulgin's questionnaire on Erowid so you know the standard spectrum of MDMA effects."

The only Ann Shuglin result I found from a search for a questionnaire was this:  https://erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info12.shtml

Is that the right link?

Here, Ann Shulgin states: 



> The physical effects of MDMA have been observed over hundreds of experiments or sessions. The major effect appears to be one of de-stressing, both physically and mentally. Another common effect is anorexia (loss of appetite) which, in the case of a novice, may last for more than 24 hours after the session. Many people have a tendency to jaw-clenching, and in first and second-time use, there may be *nystagmus* (eye-wiggle) which some find disturbing, and other enjoyable. Both the jaw-clench and nystagmus tend to disappear almost entirely with subsequent use, but in the cases where they cause distress, a damp cloth held between the teeth can give some relief; in the case of the eye-wiggle, the client should be reminded that it is transient and harmless. (Note: jaw-clench can also be helped with chewing gum.)
> 
> There is often an awareness of the body's natural energy which can express itself as *nervousness or a desire to move about.* Not many people experience this as a negative aspect of the session, and may soon learn that a focusing of the attention in the direction desired, for instance to a personal problem or difficulty which needs resolutions, will help bring about a calming of the energy tremor.



Later, she goes on to comment, 



> MDMA is known as a chemical which brings about a *condition of peacefulness, and ability to feel trust, a lowering of psychological barriers, and often an extraordinary increase in insight.* It has proved, in the last few years, of great value in psychotherapy, and is being used increasingly by psychiatrists and mental health professionals.



So...when there is no nystagmus, desire to move about, peacefulness, trust, lowering of barriers, or insight...what is going on?


----------



## Negi

I think you focused on the wrong part of the sentence for nystagmus.



indigoaura said:


> Many people have a tendency to jaw-clenching, *and in first and second-time use*, there may be nystagmus (eye-wiggle) which some find disturbing, and other enjoyable. *Both the jaw-clench and nystagmus tend to disappear almost entirely with subsequent use*


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> And this is where it gets tricky, because I want to take people at face value when they say they are getting typical MDMA. But, I can imagine how you would rate it at 8.5 out of 10 if all you have experienced were variations of Meh. But, most of the reports you posted talked about euphoria or enhanced touch, so that makes me think that they are getting magic stuff.


Sorry honestly not meaning to patronise you at all Indigo, or undermine you in any way.  I just can't help chucking in my own, philosophical subjective 
experience-based perspective.

I was privileged to take many an amazing ecstasy pill. So good in fact on occasions, that even the cleanest, strong and still outstanding, genuinely magic MDMA pills would score 8.5/10 in comparison to those true 10's.

And those 8's and aboves would keep me forever happy on a desert island, don't get me wrong.


----------



## indigoaura

AutoTripper said:


> Sorry honestly not meaning to patronise you at all Indigo, or undermine you in any way.  I just can't help chucking in my own, philosophical subjective
> experience-based perspective.
> 
> I was privileged to take many an amazing ecstasy pill. So good in fact on occasions, that even the cleanest, strong and still outstanding, genuinely magic MDMA pills would score 8.5/10 in comparison to those true 10's.
> 
> And those 8's and aboves would keep me forever happy on a desert island, don't get me wrong.



I agree, absolutely, 100%. If I think of my range of MDMA experiences that did contain the characteristic qualities of MDMA, there were some stellar 10s, but most of them were 7-8s but still amazing. 

This stuff I get today would be 1-2 on my scale, or not even on the scale at all. Maybe on a different scale entirely. 

But, I am imagining someone who never had MDMA in a range of 3-10. What if all they had was MehDMA range 0-3? Would they believe it was 8/10 because it was some of the best stuff they had? I don't know, maybe?


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> I think you focused on the wrong part of the sentence for nystagmus.



Again...what about virgin MDMA users who do not have these classic, tell-tale signs?

This is not just about me. I would write myself off as tolerance if it was not for this thread and the research. 

(also, got to add...really? nystagmus and jaw clenching that go away after subsequent uses? That was not my experience at all.)


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> I agree, absolutely, 100%. If I think of my range of MDMA experiences that did contain the characteristic qualities of MDMA, there were some stellar 10s, but most of them were 7-8s but still amazing.
> 
> This stuff I get today would be 1-2 on my scale, or not even on the scale at all. Maybe on a different scale entirely.
> 
> But, I am imagining someone who never had MDMA in a range of 3-10. What if all they had was MehDMA range 0-3? Would they believe it was 8/10 because it was some of the best stuff they had? I don't know, maybe?


I can relate to this logical consideration fully.

I guess, fundamentally and I'm sure you've made this point may be in roundabout ways many times that they would not have something legitimate to compare it to in many cases so 10 would be like your 2 or maybe slightly above if they were luckier then you have been in recent years which I suspect is the case for quite a few people for whatever reason maybe regional.

It is essentially just a cheap thrill now for so many new users who have not yet encountered Magic MDMA.   Maybe a different crowd is drawn to it entirely?

Like my friend Dominic. He loves a drink and smoke of weed, has a vibrant social life. He likes the "show" and buzz of taking Dutch imported "ecstasy".  He is sort of a control freak not in a bad way when it comes to controlling others but just his own routine and persona and especially ego, he likes everything in order and predictable.

He is NOT deep. Not spirirtual or open like myself. Likes a neat edge at the field, no  uncontrolled surprises.  Domininc TOTALLY freaked out on shrooms. Every time, lost the plot. Could understand nothing. OCD repeating questions:-

What time is it? Why are my hands clammy?

We always assured him constantly but tiring after hours.

He was always fine afterwards.

But I am proposing the MehDma may be drawing a different demographic currently.  So 8/10 cos they doent know better, and that is all they are looking for essentially?

Just thinking openly anyway.
Personally I would start feeling a bit palmed off with 7/10 minimum.

But I could go through my Extraordinary past drug taking memory now and think of a load of really excellent MDMA pills which would probably score an 8 compared to some of those world altering beauties.

So your 1 and 2 rates I'm sure would dissapoint me. Interesting!


----------



## indigoaura

Came across this on Erowid:





						Erowid.org: Erowid Reference 1410 : Subjective and hormonal effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) in humans : Harris DS, Baggott M, Mendelson J, Mendelson JE, Jones RT
					

The Index page for the reference article: Harris DS, Baggott M, Mendelson J, Mendelson JE, Jones RT Subjective and hormonal effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) in humans Psychopharmacology (Berl) 2002 162:396-405



					erowid.org
				






> Rise in DHEA correlated with euphoria.



Does this imply that the MDMA euphoria is the result of DHEA release, or just that the two occurred simultaneously?

I have heard before that MDMA releases cortisol and oxytocin, but this is the first time I read about DHEA.

I am curious if anyone else is familiar with this?


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Came across this on Erowid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Erowid.org: Erowid Reference 1410 : Subjective and hormonal effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) in humans : Harris DS, Baggott M, Mendelson J, Mendelson JE, Jones RT
> 
> 
> The Index page for the reference article: Harris DS, Baggott M, Mendelson J, Mendelson JE, Jones RT Subjective and hormonal effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) in humans Psychopharmacology (Berl) 2002 162:396-405
> 
> 
> 
> erowid.org


Good find. I will add testing for Cortisol and DHEA in blood to the in-vivo tests for Meh MDMA.  (I already added Prolactin earlier).



indigoaura said:


> Does this imply that the MDMA euphoria is the result of DHEA release, or just that the two occurred simultaneously?


IMO it was just a correlation. To find out, ingest a large but non-toxic dose of DHEA and find out.  In my country it can be bought OTC.



indigoaura said:


> I am curious if anyone else is familiar with this?


I was not familiar with the effect of MDMA on DHEA before reading this article.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Good find. I will add testing for Cortisol and DHEA in blood to the the in-vivo tests for Meh MDMA.  (I already added Prolactin earlier).
> 
> IMO it was just a correlation. To find out, ingest a large but non-toxic dose of DHEA and find out.  In my country it can be bought OTC.
> 
> I was not familiar with the effect on DHEA before reading this article.



Despite my ongoing advocacy for additional testing and research to explore the MehDMA issue, I am open to the possibility that my problem is a personal problem. If DHEA is the reason for the euphoric element, I may be incapable of experiencing it. Recent testing has shown that I am deficient in pregnenolone. My understanding is that DHEA is generated from pregnenolone. The problem is that pregnenolone can either become cortisol or DHEA. This is why people who are in long term, high stress situations can end up with hormonal imbalances, because the pregnenolone is routed to become cortisol rather than DHEA.


----------



## user666

All the more reason to do an experiment with a bolus of DHEA.


----------



## Negi

AutoTripper said:


> Like my friend Dominic. He loves a drink and smoke of weed, has a vibrant social life. He likes the "show" and buzz of taking Dutch imported "ecstasy". He is sort of a control freak not in a bad way when it comes to controlling others but just his own routine and persona and especially ego, he likes everything in order and predictable.
> 
> He is NOT deep. Not spirirtual or open like myself. Likes a neat edge at the field, no uncontrolled surprises. Domininc TOTALLY freaked out on shrooms. Every time, lost the plot. Could understand nothing. OCD repeating questions:-



That seems to be a very judgemental description of an individual. Have you talked to them about what they experience and enjoy on MDMA?


----------



## AutoTripper

Negi said:


> That seems to be a very judgemental description of an individual. Have you talked to them about what they experience and enjoy on MDMA?


It isn't judgemental. He is a long term friend. I accept him totally. We all have our unique characteristics.

You ask any person who knows him and they will attest that is an accurate description and most people I have met strongly dislike this character yet I have still accepted and treated him as a very good friend overtime I've just saying what his disposition is like because it is relevant to his Handling of psychedelic experience and preference for drugs like cocaine.

It was just an example to serve for the posit that maybe be a different crowd is drawn to MDMA at large nowadays who are looking for something totally different to the transcendental magic many others of us know and seek.

I've hardly seen or spoken to this friend for years so I haven't made much specific enquiry into his own experience of MDMA and what he gets out of it personally.


----------



## Negi

AutoTripper said:


> It was just an example to serve for the posit that maybe be a different crowd is drawn to MDMA at large nowadays who are looking for something totally different to the transcendental magic many others of us know and seek.



That's always been the case. The dealer who sold the MDMA for my first roll, which was packed with transcendental magic and extremely therapeutic, was snorting lines of the same batch to go to bars and pick up girls for one night stands. It's important to remember that the word "magic" is just a helpful descriptive, and doesn't indicate a supernatural power to fundamentally change what people are (especially in a setting of recreational intent).


----------



## indigoaura

@user666

Supplementing with DHEA has a lot of implications for a woman's hormonal balance. I am willing to do a lot in the name of this research, but I am not willing to take copious amounts of DHEA. That could really mess me up. Now, I may be taking a low-dose of DHEA a recommended by my doctor, and I will certainly report on that and whether it changes anything for me with my experience, but I am not willing to take heroic doses.

My glucometer arrived. I will figure out how to use it so that I am ready to measure glucose levels on the next roll.


----------



## user666

Please look up the half-life period for DHEA in your body.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Please look up the half-life period for DHEA in your body.



Would you be more clear about your implication here? I see it has a very short half-life, but it is still getting converted to androstenedione, testosterone, estrone, estradiol, and estriol. Any/all of those can throw off a woman's hormonal balance.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Would you be more clear about your implication here? I see it has a very short half-life, but it is still getting converted to androstenedione, testosterone, estrone, estradiol, and estriol. Any/all of those can throw off a woman's hormonal balance.


Hi Indigo. You know, I always have underlying gut feelings and instincts, which I don't always trust.

Now, I really believe I have heard enough from so many angles to convince me that there is a vast difference between different batches of MDMA especially compared to the past average....


Just far too much smoke for there to be no cigar I'm afraid.  Up until 2005 when I stopped my ecstasy taking I knew people who were in their late 40s who had been taking the drug since the 80s and they had not lost the magic and we're not talking about a decline in the quality of the MDMA or Mehdma at all.


That is an extremely crucial point to consider in this debate subjectively I think.

So I do not doubt at all that there is very poor quality and not real MDMA floating about in mass quantity.

But regarding your own experiences @indigoaura I honestly wondered if there was something healthwise or hormonal wise going on with you particularly right now which was affecting your experiences of MDMA?

I just really felt that way in my gut but that is not a counter argument against this thread in any way and I'm sure that magic MDMA would still be remarkably different to you vs the fake product.

Still I think it's a very good thing that you are prepared to explore this Avenue of consideration. I hope you get some revelation at some point.


----------



## psy997

I think hormones are a valid and important avenue of exploration, and I would like to note that I am both a male in my mid-late 20s and take care of myself health-wise more than 99% of people ever will. I highly doubt I'm experiencing hormonal issues affecting MDMA. Though, I am open to cortisol overproduction being an issue.

EDIT: Also, just saw someone post in the MDMA LTC thread about experiencing LTC issues after one use of 100mg. That is not normal.


----------



## AutoTripper

Sorry, random AF points. 

When I partook, over 9 years, I think these symptoms would literally come and go with tolerance and usage frequency.

I'm not sure about nystagmus with heavy, frequent usage.  But jaw clenching, and especially shaking on higher doses (which was one of the most beautiful states of ecstasy when that symptom was at its fullest), those muscles would quickly build up with regular use and be pretty resistance to these physical effects.

It's possible however that really magical MDMA would always open the pupils dark to the edge.  I wish I had paid more attention but I think this was the case or this symptom despite tolerance.


So jaw clenching does not exactly go away but is controlled without conscious efforts when ecstasy is taken very frequently and muscles literally filled in those areas visibly so in the face lol in mini ravers from the 90s and beyomd.


But....the full black eye. With a week's break say and true, quality MDMA, I believe was a constant in my 9 years of frequent use.


----------



## indigoaura

> Though, I am open to cortisol overproduction being an issue.



That would make sense, theoretically. If DHEA is truly associated with the euphoric elements of the roll, but some people are making cortisol instead of DHEA...maybe some people cannot release the amount of DHEA needed to produce the euphoria. But, this does not make sense in those cases where someone has reported taking the MehDMA and then immediately take a different batch and roll just fine. It does not SEEM like it is something related to the person in those cases. 

@AutoTripper I am definitely having hormonal issues going on right now, and as I have said before, I am 100% open to the possibility that I am having a ME issue. I've taken NAC and BPC157 to try and test that theory, but I have not noticed any difference with those supplements. I consider myself healthy. I'm not overweight, get my vitamin levels checked regularly, don't have any major health problems...but I have a few documented oddities. The low pregnenolone is one of them, and high estrogen/high cortisol are others. As much as I hate it, I am approaching 40 and that age range where shit just starts to get weird for women as far as hormones are concerned.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> That would make sense, theoretically. If DHEA is truly associated with the euphoric elements of the roll, but some people are making cortisol instead of DHEA...maybe some people cannot release the amount of DHEA needed to produce the euphoria. But, this does not make sense in those cases where someone has reported taking the MehDMA and then immediately take a different batch and roll just fine. It does not SEEM like it is something related to the person in those cases.
> 
> @AutoTripper I am definitely having hormonal issues going on right now, and as I have said before, I am 100% open to the possibility that I am having a ME issue. I've taken NAC and BPC157 to try and test that theory, but I have not noticed any difference with those supplements. I consider myself healthy. I'm not overweight, get my vitamin levels checked regularly, don't have any major health problems...but I have a few documented oddities. The low pregnenolone is one of them, and high estrogen/high cortisol are others. As much as I hate it, I am approaching 40 and that age range where shit just starts to get weird for women as far as hormones are concerned.


Well if it makes you feel any better this month particular older lady I used to go to three parties with and spend time round her crazy ketamine time warp weekend party household from 2003 to 2005, she only started taking drugs aged 30, which amazed me at the time seeing as I was only 23 myself and had already consumed thousands of ecstasy pills etc..... but she was 47 at that time I'm and she certainly never reported losing magic due to any hormonal issues but of course this can be completely individually dependent and hopefully in your own case is just a temporary Factor if one at all you just don't know what can happen and how things can change.


But you have to consider it of course.

By the way that is really pleasing to hear that you are generally keeping on top of your health checks and the majority of markers are good and and positive that really pleases me in particular to hear that.


----------



## user666

The implication is that with such a short half-life, small doses administered for a long time will be more effective than a one-time large dose.  Especially, that the production of other hormones is subject to additional regulating mechanisms, which are slow.


----------



## Buzz Lightbeer

I have acquired some MDMA that I believe to finally be good, I tried a 50mg dose orally, and it's hard to say for sure because you're in a weird limbo between rolling and not rolling. It was a rough weekend for me so I was all emotional about a bunch of things, got into some calls, talked a bunch online etc.. Other effects were promising, even for such a low dose, speediness, sweating.. Anyway, no real point in getting into all of it since it was such a low dose.

I have followed this thread with some interest, skipping over the chemistry, but still, following to some degree  Are there any (reagent) tests that I could do that would help this cause forward in any way? When the opportunity arises, I'll be taking a full dose and most likely sharing it with friends that are at least semi experienced with the drug (mostly meh stuff, I'm pretty sure)


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Buzz Lightbeer said:


> Are there any (reagent) tests that I could do that would help this cause forward in any way? When the opportunity arises, I'll be taking a full dose and most likely sharing it with friends that are at least semi experienced with the drug (mostly meh stuff, I'm pretty sure)



I think the biggest thing is that if it does turn out to be magic, hold onto some in case a decent test gets established.  Simply reagent application hasn't really given much info.  I would be interested to see reagent of confirmed magic vs meh after the two samples have been put through TLC but that takes a bit of work.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Buzz Lightbeer said:


> I have acquired some MDMA that I believe to finally be good, I tried a 50mg dose orally, and it's hard to say for sure because you're in a weird limbo between rolling and not rolling. It was a rough weekend for me so I was all emotional about a bunch of things, got into some calls, talked a bunch online etc.. Other effects were promising, even for such a low dose, speediness, sweating.. Anyway, no real point in getting into all of it since it was such a low dose.
> 
> I have followed this thread with some interest, skipping over the chemistry, but still, following to some degree  Are there any (reagent) tests that I could do that would help this cause forward in any way? When the opportunity arises, I'll be taking a full dose and most likely sharing it with friends that are at least semi experienced with the drug (mostly meh stuff, I'm pretty sure)


if its good just snort it. 50-60 mg lines hit strong and nice for a while.


----------



## Buzz Lightbeer

I would but I gotta give my receptors some rest, hasn't been my strong suit this lockdown


----------



## alarminglynefarious

i can break it down to two things:
methylone
china


----------



## user666

alarminglynefarious said:


> methylone
> china


Do you think that chromatographs and spectrometers cannot distinguish between chinese Methylone and MDMA ?


----------



## draculic acid69

I reckon China is the reason for meh.
Whatever the reason for meh is I reckon China is behind it one way or another


----------



## user666

I think so too, but the issue is more subtle than substitution or inclusion of βk-MDMA.


----------



## user666

@indigoaura
In reference to the *Pifl paper* you've cited, the compounds 11, 12 & 13 are diaryl-like, which could mean that they are fluorescent or at least they could have a UV chromophore like Dibenzylideneacetone.


----------



## rainey

alarminglynefarious said:


> i can break it down to two things:
> methylone
> china



Welcome to bluelight bud.

Afraid you are way off  there it has nothing to do with M1 or china it's simply a change of precursers from the way it was originally made. People can talk science all they like but once they start producing real safrole again they will produce real mdma again.

Simple!


----------



## Negi

rainey said:


> Afraid you are way off there it has nothing to do with M1 or china it's simply a change of precursers from the way it was originally made. People can talk science all they like but once they start producing real safrole again they will produce real mdma again.



I don't think we have any conclusive evidence that it's due to precursors, and that doesn't match with the experiences of people in the thread. The big crackdown on safarole happened 2008/2009, people were getting meh before that and plenty of people have gotten magic since (some from sources that are very likely using PMK-G as a precursor, such as the Q-Dance pills).


----------



## OzzBozz

Negi said:


> I don't think we have any conclusive evidence that it's due to precursors, and that doesn't match with the experiences of people in the thread. The big crackdown on safarole happened 2008/2009, people were getting meh before that and plenty of people have gotten magic since (some from sources that are very likely using PMK-G as a precursor, such as the Q-Dance pills).



Damn. I found a source claiming they make saffrole produced mdma. It appears brown and crystally and turns to a fluffy off white powder when broken up.


----------



## Negi

OzzBozz said:


> Damn. I found a source claiming they make saffrole produced mdma. It appears brown and crystally and turns to a fluffy off white powder when broken up.



Visual identification of drugs is worse than completely useless, as it can mislead but never confirm.


----------



## draculic acid69

rainey said:


> Welcome to bluelight bud.
> 
> Afraid you are way off  there it has nothing to do with M1 or china it's simply a change of precursers from the way it was originally made. People can talk science all they like but once they start producing real safrole again they will produce real mdma again.
> 
> Simple!


Plenty of batches going pmkglycidate to mdp2p to hg/al amalgam or leuckart are magic.pmk glycidate was around before meh. Once that glycidate is decomposed into mdp2p and fractionally distilled it no longer matters if safrole was used or not.the only way it could matter is if the glycidate was decomposed and the ketone was used crude or a real sloppy purification was performed.


----------



## draculic acid69

AutoTripper said:


> Sorry, random AF points.
> 
> When I partook, over 9 years, I think these symptoms would literally come and go with tolerance and usage frequency.
> 
> I'm not sure about nystagmus with heavy, frequent usage.  But jaw clenching, and especially shaking on higher doses (which was one of the most beautiful states of ecstasy when that symptom was at its fullest), those muscles would quickly build up with regular use and be pretty resistance to these physical effects.
> 
> It's possible however that really magical MDMA would always open the pupils dark to the edge.  I wish I had paid more attention but I think this was the case or this symptom despite tolerance.
> 
> 
> So jaw clenching does not exactly go away but is controlled without conscious efforts when ecstasy is taken very frequently and muscles literally filled in those areas visibly so in the face lol in mini ravers from the 90s and beyomd.
> 
> 
> But....the full black eye. With a week's break say and true, quality MDMA, I believe was a constant in my 9 years of frequent use.


No Matter what the tolerance factor is the dilation of the pupils is always a constant factor that no one stops getting.


----------



## AutoTripper

draculic acid69 said:


> No Matter what the tolerance factor is the dilation of the pupils is always a constant factor that no one stops getting.


Not disputing at all. I wish I had made more observation of this at those times.


----------



## rorymullan

Pills where always better in the past. In the early 00's the older ravers dreamed of the pills of the 90's. Today the MDMA of the 00's is the holy grail of MDMA.

The magic wears off as the experience becomes normalised. Same as any other drug.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

rorymullan said:


> Pills where always better in the past. In the early 00's the older ravers dreamed of the pills of the 90's. Today the MDMA of the 00's is the holy grail of MDMA.
> 
> The magic wears off as the experience becomes normalised. Same as any other drug.



Although there is a lot of truth in what you say, it's overly simplistic I'm afraid. 'Magic' is a very subjective term and is influenced by a lot of factors - the main one being having access to good MDMA. However, the fact is that there is a lot of shit MDMA out there that couldn't provide anything close to 'magic' - or even 'good'...


----------



## psy997

rorymullan said:


> Pills where always better in the past. In the early 00's the older ravers dreamed of the pills of the 90's. Today the MDMA of the 00's is the holy grail of MDMA.
> 
> The magic wears off as the experience becomes normalised. Same as any other drug.



Not true. Those of us who do find good MDMA after months or years of only Meh have no problems having magic experiences.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

rorymullan said:


> Pills where always better in the past. In the early 00's the older ravers dreamed of the pills of the 90's. Today the MDMA of the 00's is the holy grail of MDMA.
> 
> The magic wears off as the experience becomes normalised. Same as any other drug.



Literally the very first post counters this.  Literally the first post!  I know you might not want to read 251 pages but the opening post shouldn't be too much


----------



## FuckinAcidMan

OzzBozz said:


> Damn. I found a source claiming they make saffrole produced mdma. It appears brown and crystally and turns to a fluffy off white powder when broken up.


I'm droolin  hahah


----------



## rorymullan

ThreePointCircle said:


> Literally the very first post counters this.  Literally the first post!  I know you might not want to read 251 pages but the opening post shouldn't be too much



The first post doesn't counter anything. It offers an opinion, the same opinion that has always been offered.

The reason someone might find saffrole produced MDMA to be better, could just be that they go into the experience expecting saffrole produced MDMA to be better. AFAIK, both methods produce a racemic product.

I'm not saying that it is wrong, and that the MDMA available today isn't different than the MDMA produced a decade ago, but I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary and it's true that it's always been the case that the old ravers have talked about how much better MDMA was in the past. I remember it well when I was a young buck in the mid 00's.

I haven't heard the youth of today complaining.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

rorymullan said:


> The first post doesn't counter anything. It offers an opinion, the same opinion that has always been offered.


The first post (and many others) are incompatible with the idea of magic wearing off (as they say there are still able to get a magic experience, only depending on the batch).  Now fair enough if you don't believe what they are saying - proof is required for this to be accepted.  But to just chuck out a condescending statement that doesn't logically explain what people are reporting is just plain annoying.


----------



## rorymullan

ThreePointCircle said:


> The first post (and many others) are incompatible with the idea of magic wearing off (as they say there are still able to get a magic experience, only depending on the batch).  Now fair enough if you don't believe what they are saying - proof is required for this to be accepted.  But to just chuck out a condescending statement that doesn't logically explain what people are reporting is just plain annoying.



I'm not being condescending 

Sorry if I came across that way, not intended.

Merely pointing out that it's by no means a new opinion and has been shared by older ravers for as long as there has been older ravers, and that since the experience is entirely based on set and setting, the experience could entirely be explained by the subjective feeling going in that the saffrole MDMA will be better. That feel logical to me.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

rorymullan said:


> Merely pointing out that it's by no means a new opinion and has been shared by older ravers for as long as there has been older ravers, and that since the experience is entirely based on set and setting, the experience could entirely be explained by the subjective feeling going in that the saffrole MDMA will be better. That's a pretty logical explanation


No probs, I'm sorry for being cranky.  Ecstasy was so called because the euphoria was so bloody strong.  I don't buy for a second the set and setting argument, simply because the difference is too massive.  It also assumes that everyone complaining of meh had a bad set or setting.  What I'm saying is if the experiential difference between batches is placebo then it is one hell of a massive placebo.  Hey I've tried to wish it in to reality, lol, but it doesn't happen.  Also, the meh experiences are remarkably consistent.

Hopefully my TLC experiments will lead to something.  It looks like I'm finding more than what should be in there.  I've got bigger plates on order to try and separate better.  If I do, then I'll see if any of the testing services can test of the TLC scrapings.


----------



## rorymullan

ThreePointCircle said:


> No probs, I'm sorry for being cranky.  Ecstasy was so called because the euphoria was so bloody strong.  I don't buy for a second the set and setting argument, simply because the difference is too massive.  It also assumes that everyone complaining of meh had a bad set or setting.  What I'm saying is if the experiential difference between batches is placebo then it is one hell of a massive placebo.  Hey I've tried to wish it in to reality, lol, but it doesn't happen.  Also, the meh experiences are remarkably consistent.
> 
> Hopefully my TLC experiments will lead to something.  It looks like I'm finding more than what should be in there.  I've got bigger plates on order to try and separate better.  If I do, then I'll see if any of the testing services can test of the TLC scrapings.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Hopefully my TLC experiments will lead to something.  It looks like I'm finding more than what should be in there.


In reference to @indigoaura 's  hypothesis and paper, to which I referred in *this post*, the three di-aryl molecules are so much larger, that they should ascend slower up the TLC plate. 
If her hypothesis is correct then these di-aryl compounds would be in the lowest spot on the plate and MDMA would be in one of the higher spots.  Of course, this would also mean, that MDMA is a minority component in the mix.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> I've got bigger plates on order to try and separate better.


Did you see the TLC techniques described in *this paper* ?


----------



## AutoTripper

rorymullan said:


> Pills where always better in the past. In the early 00's the older ravers dreamed of the pills of the 90's. Today the MDMA of the 00's is the holy grail of MDMA.
> 
> The magic wears off as the experience becomes normalised. Same as any other drug.


I have expressed this point many times. From 96 to 98 at least, pill standard average decreased.

The magical bullets were fewer and farer between. Like OG Doves, Dolphins, Elephants etc.  But still around, amidst plenty lower dosed presses like 55mg not 120-170.

But it picked up in general from 2000. I got so many truly banging e's up until 2005, right on par with the best I had in the 90's, from a large subject pool from 96 to 2005 April.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> In reference to @indigoaura 's  hypothesis and paper, to which I referred in *this post*, the three di-aryl molecules are so much larger, that they should ascend slower up the TLC plate.
> If her hypothesis is correct then these di-aryl compounds would be in the lowest spot on the plate and MDMA would be in one of the higher spots.  Of course, this would also mean, that MDMA is a minority component in the mix.


Can you refresh me on what the hypothesis is?  Is the a particular reason why the diarl components might be the culprits?

And I hadn't considered the MDMA spot actually being the smaller one.  Interesting idea.  One thing was that I couldn't really determine a difference between the two spots in how they reacted to the reagents.  They were both compatible is MDMA, at least as far as I could tell.



user666 said:


> Did you see the TLC techniques described in *this paper* ?



I've just had a quick look.  Most of it I can't do because of the equipment involved.  I was curious about their mobile phase of almost 100% methanol.  All the advice I've seen is not to go over 10%, otherwise the silica gets dissolved.


----------



## rainey

Negi said:


> I don't think we have any conclusive evidence that it's due to precursors, and that doesn't match with the experiences of people in the thread. The big crackdown on safarole happened 2008/2009, people were getting meh before that and plenty of people have gotten magic since (some from sources that are very likely using PMK-G as a precursor, such as the Q-Dance pills).



yes and I don't and have never got "magic" from qdance!


----------



## indigoaura

I have not gotten my results back yet on the two samples I sent in for testing. Waiting eagerly.

I should have some new product to test out soon. Maybe in a week or two. I took the advice of several people in the thread and I am getting some pills. "Q-Dance" were not available, but I selected something that specifically mentioned euphoria, with some extra positive comments. Also, they claimed a lower overall mg dose per pill, and they charged more. That may seem counter-intuitive to many, but seemed like good signs to me.

Also will be getting some new crystal.

We'll see what each looks like with reagents and lab tests and go from there.

I am always conflicted about whether it is ok to consume something with multiple reagent tests but no lab result. So, my decision on that will determine when I can move forward.

@rorymullin I knew those ravers who talked about how the 90s pills were different. However, the guys who were "old-school" back in 2000 still rolled hard on what was going around in 2000. I saw them completely laid up with dilated pupils, rubbing on everyone in a giant cuddle puddle. So, although they did talk about how the ecstasy used to be different, they did not complain about not being able to roll. It all makes sense if they were recalling a Leuckart synth with a different set of impurities than the al hg synth popular at that time. It is entirely plausible that 90s MDMA was different from 00s MDMA, which was different from 2010s MDMA and so on and so forth, due to the impurities and ratios of impurities.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Can you refresh me on what the hypothesis is?  Is the a particular reason why the diarl components might be the culprits?


Just what is described in that *Pifl paper*, which she found.
The authors identified two di-ary synthesis byproducts*, which reduce the MDMA's effects on the noradrenergic and serotonergic systems in vitro.  I remind you, that the former one is responsible for the pupil dilation and energy.
These byproducts resemble MDMA dimers, which have been mentioned in this thread several times. They might deceive hot gas-chromatography through pyrolytic disproportionation, but this has not been studied.

@indigoaura 's hypothesis is that these compounds, or other ones which have similar inhibitory properties, are responsible for the MehMDMA, which tests as just MDMA.

* They also discovered a 3rd di-aryl synth byproduct, which is not psychoactive.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> One thing was that I couldn't really determine a difference between the two spots in how they reacted to the reagents.  They were both compatible is MDMA, at least as far as I could tell.


Yes, reagents would not differentiate between them, but there might be a difference in their opacity to UV light because similar di-aryl compounds are known to be strong UV absorbers (some are even used in sunscreens).



ThreePointCircle said:


> I've just had a quick look.  Most of it I can't do because of the equipment involved.  I was curious about their mobile phase of almost 100% methanol.  All the advice I've seen is not to go over 10%, otherwise the silica gets dissolved.


I never encountered anything about the silica getting dissolved (it's a pretty resilient compound!) but I remember reading somewhere, that methanol interferes with some fluorescent agents added to the silica.


----------



## vecktor

ThreePointCircle said:


> Can you refresh me on what the hypothesis is?  Is the a particular reason why the diarl components might be the culprits?
> 
> And I hadn't considered the MDMA spot actually being the smaller one.  Interesting idea.  One thing was that I couldn't really determine a difference between the two spots in how they reacted to the reagents.  They were both compatible is MDMA, at least as far as I could tell.
> 
> 
> 
> I've just had a quick look.  Most of it I can't do because of the equipment involved.  I was curious about their mobile phase of almost 100% methanol.  All the advice I've seen is not to go over 10%, otherwise the silica gets dissolved.



The silica dissolving story is from flash column chromatography and it is not important to TLC. The methanol doesn't actually dissolved the silica but the large amounts of heat generated when methanol is absorbed into the silica column  with nowhere for the heat to go causes spherical silica to breakdown and shed small particles that end up in the product.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Just what is described in that *Pifl paper*, which she found.
> The authors identified two di-ary synthesis byproducts*, which reduce the MDMA's effects on the noradrenergic and serotonergic systems in vitro.  I remind you, that the former one is responsible for the pupil dilation and energy.
> These byproducts resemble MDMA dimers, which have been mentioned in this thread several times. They might deceive hot gas-chromatography through pyrolytic disproportionation, but this has not been studied.
> 
> @indigoaura 's hypothesis is that these compounds, or other ones which have similar inhibitory properties, are responsible for the MehMDMA, which tests as just MDMA.
> 
> * They also discovered a 3rd di-aryl synth byproduct, which is not psychoactive.



Holy crap, yep for some reason I didn't even read the abstract - amazing paper.  Have read the abstract now and will continue with the rest of the paper.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Yes, reagents would not differentiate between them, but there might be a difference in their opacity to UV light because similar di-aryl compounds are known to be strong UV absorbers (some are even used in sunscreens).


Oh right.  The problem with the UV opacity is that I guess it also depends on the concentration.  Any other reliable way to differentiate between these and mdma on a tlc plate?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vecktor said:


> The silica dissolving story is from flash column chromatography and it is not important to TLC. The methanol doesn't actually dissolved the silica but the large amounts of heat generated when methanol is absorbed into the silica column  with nowhere for the heat to go causes spherical silica to breakdown and shed small particles that end up in the product.


Oh right, makes sense.  Seems like quite a few people are confusing the two situations in online posts.  I'll try and test out the methanol/ammonia system used in the paper referenced by @user666 at some point.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> The problem with the UV opacity is that I guess it also depends on the concentration.


Definitely. Especially in solution



ThreePointCircle said:


> Any other reliable way to differentiate between these and mdma on a tlc plate?


I only have a long shot. Maybe just maybe these bi-aryl compounds fluoresce on their own under UV light. If that is the case, then that fluorescence might be noticeable on pure silica without a fluorescent agent added.
Other than that - different solvent systems as usual. Me thinks the bulkiness of these bi-aryl compounds would be accentuated by small solvent molecules such as methanol, ethanol, acetonitrile.


----------



## indigoaura

ThreePointCircle said:


> Holy crap, yep for some reason I didn't even read the abstract - amazing paper.  Have read the abstract now and will continue with the rest of the paper.



I have read the paper half a dozen times, and every time I re-read it, I catch some little detail I did not notice before. It is a pretty dense paper. Although they are discussing contaminants that were common from older synthesis methods, I still think the theory could be the crux of what we are observing. I have forwarded all these articles to Drugs Data as well, and they are thinking on similar lines. IF there is a problem with the product, the contaminant probably behaves very similarly to MDMA, reagent tests as MDMA etc.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> I only have a long shot. Maybe just maybe these bi-aryl compounds fluoresce on their own under UV light. If that is the case, then that fluorescence might be noticeable on pure silica without a fluorescent agent added.
> Other than that - different solvent systems as usual. Me thinks the bulkiness of these bi-aryl compounds would be accentuated by small solvent molecules such as methanol, ethanol, acetonitrile.


The plates I have, and the ones on order, have the fluorescent agent so I can't test that at the moment unfortunately.  Hopefully I can get more obvious separation with the bigger plates I have on order, and playing with the systems.  Questions is, what to do after that?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> I have read the paper half a dozen times, and every time I re-read it, I catch some little detail I did not notice before. It is a pretty dense paper. Although they are discussing contaminants that were common from older synthesis methods, I still think the theory could be the crux of what we are observing. I have forwarded all these articles to Drugs Data as well, and they are thinking on similar lines. IF there is a problem with the product, the contaminant probably behaves very similarly to MDMA, reagent tests as MDMA etc.


I'm wondering where to go with my TLC experiments.  After I receive the bigger plates, I'll try and get better separation.  But then what?  Is it worth talking to drugs data and/or wedinos and seeing if they can analyse TLC scrapings?  Is there any value in that?  My thought is at least we'd know there's two different compounds so they know that if their testing says they are both mdma then something is wrong.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> I've just had a quick look.  Most of it I can't do because of the equipment involved.


What about activating the silica gel by heating it at 80ºC for 30min. ?



ThreePointCircle said:


> Is it worth talking to drugs data and/or wedinos and seeing if they can analyse TLC scrapings?  Is there any value in that?


Yes, if they can provide the raw spectrum for independent analysis.
If some of these spots do *not* contain MDMA then the number of labs that you can send them to for analysis, increases a lot.

Another question: Is the minor spot visible in the fluorescent TLC plate under UV light ...or only in visible light when the plate is stained with the reagent ?


----------



## indigoaura

ThreePointCircle said:


> I'm wondering where to go with my TLC experiments.  After I receive the bigger plates, I'll try and get better separation.  But then what?  Is it worth talking to drugs data and/or wedinos and seeing if they can analyse TLC scrapings?  Is there any value in that?  My thought is at least we'd know there's two different compounds so they know that if their testing says they are both mdma then something is wrong.



I asked Drugs Data about the TLC plates, but I have not heard back yet. They were previously very interested in the contaminant that Vash's friend had separated with a column, so I assume they would feel the same way about a contaminant separated with TLC, but he has not replied yet.

Reach out to Wedinos and see if they will test the TLC plates. Wedinos will not accept samples from the USA, so I am cut off from them. I think it would be great if you opened a line of conversation with them.

I think separating and testing any contaminants is probably the most important development that could occur. If we can just get a name for what we are dealing with, then we can branch off and do research on that compound and whether it would have a dulling effect if mixed with MDMA.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> What about activating the silica gel by heating it at 80ºC for 30min. ?


That's ok, I've done that before.  It didn't make any difference as far as I could tell but I'll add to the list of things to try again.



user666 said:


> Yes, if they can provide the raw spectrum for independent analysis.
> If some of these spots do *not* contain MDMA then the number of labs that you can send them to for analysis, increases a lot.


Only the odd yellow spot doesn't react so I definitely know it doesn't contain mdma.



user666 said:


> Another question: Is the minor spot visible in the fluorescent TLC plate under UV light ...or only in visible light when the plate is stained with the reagent ?



I didn't spot it under uv when I first did a big spot tlc, but for the images I uploaded recently (with the reagent tests), I think I was doing a better job.  So I'll do it again and take a photo of the uv exposure.  I've also got some iodine on order.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> I asked Drugs Data about the TLC plates, but I have not heard back yet. They were previously very interested in the contaminant that Vash's friend had separated with a column, so I assume they would feel the same way about a contaminant separated with TLC, but he has not replied yet.
> 
> Reach out to Wedinos and see if they will test the TLC plates. Wedinos will not accept samples from the USA, so I am cut off from them. I think it would be great if you opened a line of conversation with them.
> 
> I think separating and testing any contaminants is probably the most important development that could occur. If we can just get a name for what we are dealing with, then we can branch off and do research on that compound and whether it would have a dulling effect if mixed with MDMA.



Ok, sounds good.  Fingers crossed that Drugs Data will be interested.  I'll try and strike up a dialogue with Wedinos.

As I got the stuff and did a trial run, I'm think of running a column if I can get a clearer separation on TLC.  Not sure how much sample I would be if I then plan to recrystallise both the big and small components.


----------



## Negi

I was looking at the most recently published MDMA literature on Google Scholar and found a paper that might be of interest to people in this thread.



			Sci-Hub |  | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332
		

This is a Korean paper, where they throw every analysis method they have at some MDMA tablets they found. I found this one notable as if you look at the images of the pills (go to the end of the paper) they are clearly bi-layer uber eats pills, which are Q-Dance. The other interesting thing:


> The structures of the two substances were elucidated by a combination of liquid chromatography quadrupole time-of-flight mass  spectrometry, nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, and comparison with reported or newly generated spectral data  of  the  suggested structures. One of the psychoactive substances proved to be MDMA (commonly known as “Ecstasy”), and the other compound was an M-ALPHA analog bearing a hydroxyl group and an N-methylcarboxamide group. The new M-ALPHA analog was determined as 3-(benzo[d][1,3]dioxol-5-yl)-2-hydroxy-N,2-dimethyl-3-(methylamino)propanamide and named as M-ALPHA-HMCA, wherein HMCA denotes hydroxymethylcarboxamide. Although psychoactivity of this compound has not been assessed, M-ALPHA-HMCA should be considered a potential new psychoactive substanceand/or a by-product of MDMA.


From later in the paper:


> Although we cannot exclude the possibility that M-ALPHA-HMCA was intentionally mixed with MDMA, it is highly likely that M-ALPHA-HMCA was generated as a by-product during the course of the synthesis of MDMA from its impure precursor 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (PMK, MDP2P). As shown in Fig. 3, M-ALPHA-HMCA can be produced from PMK glycidates, which are frequently used as precursors of PMK[24], by simultaneous amidation and epoxide ring-opening with N-methylamine.



Edit: Pretty funny, google searching it one of the only results is a bluelight thread: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/m-alpha-hmca.888123/


----------



## indigoaura

Wow, @Negi. That research seems very promising. I am going to read it and also forward to Drugs Data.

I also noticed something odd. I was checking the Drugs Data results to see if my samples were posted yet, and was clicking on some of the other submitted samples.

Check out how different the reagent results are for these two "MDMA" samples:

https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8510 (notes say that Mecke was purple/brown)
https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8509 (notes say that Mecke was blue)

Also, notice on sample one how the user expected it to be laced with fentanyl. Hmmm. Maybe they had a rather "meh" experience.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> Also, notice on sample one how the user expected it to be laced with fentanyl. Hmmm. Maybe they had a rather "meh" experience.



I would put anything to that. People have been claiming that pills are "heroin-based" or cut with with opioids/heroin since before the millennium. Generally it just means that they had a more sedentary experience (which can be a result of dosage).


----------



## indigoaura

But why are the Mecke results so different? Looking through their published reports, it seems that Mecke is is either purple/brown or blue depending on the sample.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> But why are the Mecke results so different? Looking through their published reports, it seems that Mecke is is either purple/brown or blue depending on the sample.


fent laced mdma rocks here have shown up this year and killed once person at the start of the year and nearly everybody else in the house who took it aswell hopstial manged to save them.


----------



## RyybsNarcs

Negi said:


> I was looking at the most recently published MDMA literature on Google Scholar and found a paper that might be of interest to people in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Sci-Hub |  | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332
> 
> 
> This is a Korean paper, where they throw every analysis method they have at some MDMA tablets they found. I found this one notable as if you look at the images of the pills (go to the end of the paper) they are clearly bi-layer uber eats pills, which are Q-Dance. The other interesting thing:
> 
> From later in the paper:
> 
> 
> Edit: Pretty funny, google searching it one of the only results is a bluelight thread: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/m-alpha-hmca.888123/



Uber Eats are actually not a Q-Dance pill, even though they are bi-layer.


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> From later in the paper:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the psychoactive substances proved to be MDMA (commonly known as “Ecstasy”), and the other compound was an M-ALPHA analog bearing a hydroxyl group and an N-methylcarboxamide group. The new M-ALPHA analog was determined as 3-(benzo[d][1,3]dioxol-5-yl)-2-hydroxy-N,2-dimethyl-3-(methylamino)propanamide and named as M-ALPHA-HMCA, wherein HMCA denotes hydroxymethylcarboxamide. Although psychoactivity of this compound has not been assessed, M-ALPHA-HMCA should be considered a potential new psychoactive substanceand/or a by-product of MDMA.  Although we cannot exclude the possibility that M-ALPHA-HMCA was intentionally mixed with MDMA, it is highly likely that M-ALPHA-HMCA was generated as a by-product during the course of the synthesis of MDMA from its impure precursor 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (PMK, MDP2P).
Click to expand...

Interesting.  Note, the M-ALPHA was mentioned in this tread before.  See *this post*.
According to this, M-Alpha is an isobary of MDMA and belongs to the 1-phenyl-propyl-1-amines  class of compounds.

The paper discusses M-ALPHA with a *hydroxy*methylcarboxamide attached, which might be selectively detected by the tosyl chloride according to my *recent post* and *this post*.

According to @vash445 , a very similar compound is routinely used to cut Methamphetamine, which results in what he calles "sleepy Meth".
The Benzodioxole version of this "sleepy" cutting agent, is the N-(1,3-Benzodioxol-5-ylmethyl)propan-2-amine.

This @vash445 character had a lot of interesting things to say but he was very fragile emotionally and fell apart at the first attempt of due diligence by initiated by @G_Chem.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Interesting.  Note, the M-ALPHA was mentioned in this tread before.  See *this post*.
> According to this, M-Alpha is an isobary of MDMA and belongs to the 1-phenyl-propyl-1-amines  class of compounds.
> 
> The paper discusses M-ALPHA with a *hydroxy*methylcarboxamide attached, which might be selectively detected by the tosyl chloride according to my *recent post* and *this post*.
> 
> According to @vash445 , a very similar compound is used to cut Methamphetamine, which results in what he calles "sleepy Meth".
> The Benzodioxole version of this "sleepy" cutting agent, is the N-(1,3-Benzodioxol-5-ylmethyl)propan-2-amine.
> 
> This @vash445 character had a lot of interesting things to say but he was very fragile emotionally and fell apart at the first attempt of due diligence by initiated by @G_Chem.


Isopropyl benzylamine makes meth sleepy.is that what you are talking about? The ingredients for isopropyl3,4mdbenzylamine  are available commercially so it's possible that it's being used as a cutting agent and causing the meh effect


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Isopropyl benzylamine makes meth sleepy.is that what you are talking about?


Actually, it was another member that talked about it in *this post*.  He also mentioned that this compound "_seem to be missed in lab results._"
He wrote that it apparently makes people get "brain zaps" and makes them feel sleepy.
Apparently, there is also a benzodioxole version of it (CAS 68291-92-9).

OTOH: What is a "bleach test" which he talks about in that post?


----------



## draculic acid69

Glubrahnum said:


> Do you mean this ?
> View attachment 14908
> 
> If "yes" then this is a legal research chemical *CAS 68291-92-9* and it can be easily found in Canada and China for $50 / 100mg and since it is an isobary of MDMA, it can mimic MDMA in a Mass Spectrometer.
> 
> I wonder if it is "sleepy", too.
> 
> It would be a good chemical to test the accuracy of a Testing Center with


$50 a point is more expensive than the drug.$50 will get u a kilo of mdbenzylamine from china


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Actually, it was another member that talked about it in *this post*.  He also mentioned that this compound "_seem to be missed in lab results._"
> He wrote that it apparently makes people get "brain zaps" and makes them feel sleepy.
> Apparently, there is also a benzodioxole version of it (CAS 68291-92-9).
> 
> OTOH: What is a "bleach test" that he talks about in that post?


The bleach test is bullshit that doesn't determine anything so if someone mentions it disregard whatever shit they then dribble.


----------



## user666

*Question to Chemistry Pros*:

How exactly can the M-ALPHA-HMCA be generated as an byproduct during MDMA manufacture from PMK Glycidate ?
The quote below is too general.



> M-ALPHA-HMCA can be produced from PMK glycidates, which are frequently used as precursors of PMK, by simultaneous amidation and epoxide ring-opening with N-methylamine








Also, are there any particular impurities of PMK Glycidate, which could increases the chances of accidentally producing M-ALPHA-HMCA  from PMK Gly ?


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> *Question to Chemistry Pros*:
> 
> How exactly can the M-ALPHA-HMCA be generated as an byproduct during MDMA manufacture from PMK Glycidate ?
> The quote below is too general.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, are there any specific PMK Glycidate impurities that are necessary for the synthesis of M-ALPHA-HMCA ?


It's not an impurity in the glycidate.
They made mdp2p from bmk glycidate and didn't purify the mdp2p like they should have and the leftover glycidate that didn't get removed combines with methylamine to make m-alpha hmca.
Sloppy cooking technique.very sloppy. A lack of caring about standards or purity or the final product is to blame


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> They made mdp2p from bmk glycidate


from BMK as in B_enzyl Methyl Ketone,_ also known as P2P and  Phenyloacetone ?
If "yes", then they would have to add the methylenedioxy bridge to the BMK.  Isn't that very hard ?


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> from BMK as in B_enzyl Methyl Ketone,_ also known as P2P and  Phenyloacetone ?
> If "yes", then they would have to add the methylenedioxy bridge to the BMK.  Isn't that very hard ?


If I'm talking about bmk glycidate it always refers to the methylenedioxy compound. I don't know why but the glycidic ester is never used with ordinary bmk just mdbmk.theres stuff like apaan for ordinary bmk.


----------



## indigoaura

Wow again, @Negi.

I just finished my first read of the article. Damn.

This article actually merges our two primary theories. 

We have been speculating that the issue was a MDMA isobary, or a contaminant from synthesis. At the end of the article, it states:



> Compound A is structurally similar to MDMA but resembles its constitutional isomer M-ALPHA more than MDMA. The compound additionally bears a hydroxyl group and an N-methylcarboxamide group and was thus named MALPHA-HMCA. Although we cannot exclude the possibility that M-ALPHA-HMCA was intentionally mixed with MDMA, it is highly likely that M-ALPHA-HMCA was generated as a by-product during the course of the synthesis of MDMA from its impure precursor 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-propanone (PMK, MDP2P). As shown in Fig. 3, M-ALPHA-HMCA can be produced from PMK glycidates, which are frequently used as precursors of PMK[24], by simultaneous amidation and epoxide ring-opening with N-methylamine.



So, in other words, both theories are correct. MDMA is contaminated with an isomer that is a synthesis byproduct.

I found it interesting that they did not have the standards for this compound.

I searched the Drugs Data database for Uber Eats pills, and I did not see any. Did those pills sell with any other names? I searched on Wedinos too, but did not see them. I am curious if they have been tested, and if so, did the test results show up as MDMA only. 

This is a major development. I feel like this is a step in the right direction. @G_Chem and @Le Junk, you need to read this research that @Negi found: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332


----------



## indigoaura

> Anyone find these pills to be very underdosed?
> Took a whole one as people told me they were weak. The effects only lasted an hour


----------



## indigoaura

I also want to comment on this Q-dance vs. not Q-dance debate that has been going on in the thread.

Whether this particular bi-layer pill is Q-Dance or not, this research article establishes that there are well pressed, bi-layer pills going around that are contaminated.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> MDMA is contaminated with an isomer that is a synthesis byproduct.


While I understand the thought, technically this is not correct.  Look:






Only M-ALPHA is an isomer of MDMA and since it has the same molecular weight as the MDMA, it can also be called an isobary of MDMA.
M-ALPHA-HMCA is *not *an isomer nor an isobary of MDMA, since the added Hydroxyl group and the N-methylcarboxamide group (marked in red above) make it a different and heavier organic compound (albeit a related one).



indigoaura said:


> I found it interesting that they did not have the standards for this compound.


It is a pretty odd one, so I am not surprised it is not on the books.
However, what I find even more interesting is the suggestion that these additional Hydroxyl and N-methylcarboxamide groups are *easily generated from the Glycidate group* of the PMK Glycidate !  This seems like too much of a coincidence since the appearance of Meh MDMA roughly coincides with the switch to the PMK Glycidate as the precursor.

The missing piece of the puzzle is whether the M-ALPHA-HMCA is psychoactive or has any inhibitory effects on the noradrenergic or serotonergic systems like the *bi-aryl* and other hydroxyl containing compounds discussed *recently*.
Also, we do not know how differently the M-ALPHA-HMCA appears to the GC/MC analysis. These extra oxygens should make it readily distinguishable even if it fragments in an unfortunate manner and pyrolytic disproportionation rears its ugly head.

The good news is that the Oxygen and Hydroxyl group, which are sticking out, make it sufficiently different, so that it can be distinguished* by some chemoselective solvent or reagent with oxygen affinity ...which can lead to easy removal (it would not be so with the M-ALPHA alone*).

* Of course the Alpha amino methyl group, makes it distinguishable from MDMA, too, albeit not so easily as with these oxygen atoms.


----------



## RyybsNarcs

indigoaura said:


> I also want to comment on this Q-dance vs. not Q-dance debate that has been going on in the thread.
> 
> Whether this particular bi-layer pill is Q-Dance or not, this research article establishes that there are well pressed, bi-layer pills going around that are contaminated.



Official distributor of Q-Dance posted this on his own forum:



> UberEats was never ours. Same as pink/blue redbull. But those are minor releases. On large scale it's very hard to produce duo color pills, as the production cost can quickly rise if you do a mistake, and seeing the price of the pills today, there is no room for mistakes.. So that presser moved back to single color



He also said that someone is producing fake bi-layer Q-Dance pills, and they copied the pills on decent level, so you really can't trust anything on the market. I don't know if legit Q-Dance pills are meh or magic, but seems like those are the best bet at the moment, according to the reports.



> Our copycat in South America got the hang of it a little. CBF and Skype where copied to a pretty decent level (look wise) quality wise is a different story. Unfortunately for them, their copycat party came to a abrupt ending, as police raided their production spot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COPE fecha fábrica de ecstasy e realiza maior apreensão da droga já registrada no Brasil - Plantão 190
> 
> 
> Policiais Civis do COPE apreenderam nesta segunda-feira (6) mais de 200 mil comprimidos de ecstasy e fechou uma fábrica da droga sintética em São José dos Pinhais, na região metropolitana de Curitiba. O COPE investigou a quadrilha por mais de três meses. Em janeiro, um rapaz com um Jeep Renegade...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> plantao190.com.br



I have a couple of the newest Q-Dance pills, and I will try one in two weeks, and will do a report. I know my report telling whether those pills are magic or not won't really make any progress, but maybe it helps in this research if we know a source of MDMA that we can consider magic?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> The good news is that the Oxygen and Hydroxyl group, which are sticking out, make it sufficiently different, so that it can be distinguished* by some selective solvent or reagent with oxygen affinity ...which can lead to easy removal (it would not be so with the M-ALPHA alone*).


Any particular reagent come to mind?


----------



## indigoaura

Hi @RyybsNarcs 

We have had people debating the quality of Q-dance in this thread. It has always seemed likely to me that there are knockoff Q-Dance pills as well as authentic Q-dance pills, and you cannot trust a stamp. This has always been true. Once a pill gets a good reputation, people try to copy it.

Some people here in the thread have had "magic" Q-dance, and others have had "meh" Q-dance. IMO, there is absolutely no way of knowing whether those people had the same pills or not, or whether they were authentic Q-dance or not. 

Definitely let us know what your personal experience is, and which press you tried. What is your history of use? Are you new to MDMA or have you been using MDMA for awhile?

Also, Q-dance has a forum? I would like to read the entire post. 

Sadly, even if authentic Q-dance pills are magic, there is little to no way to be certain that what you are getting is authentic, considering that copy-cats are out there. 

Also, I hope you don't mind me asking this, but it is something I have noticed. We have had several people come to this thread to post in favor of Q-dance. Usually, they are posters who have made very few posts to BL, and they are often newly registered posters. I see in your post history that all of your posts have been to this thread to advocate for Q-dance specifically. Are you particularly invested in the idea that Q-dance pills are quality? Do you have a lot of history with them?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Hi @RyybsNarcs
> 
> We have had people debating the quality of Q-dance in this thread. It has always seemed likely to me that there are knockoff Q-Dance pills as well as authentic Q-dance pills, and you cannot trust a stamp. This has always been true. Once a pill gets a good reputation, people try to copy it.
> 
> Some people here in the thread have had "magic" Q-dance, and others have had "meh" Q-dance. IMO, there is absolutely no way of knowing whether those people had the same pills or not, or whether they were authentic Q-dance or not.
> 
> Definitely let us know what your personal experience is, and which press you tried. What is your history of use? Are you new to MDMA or have you been using MDMA for awhile?
> 
> Also, Q-dance has a forum? I would like to read the entire post.
> 
> Sadly, even if authentic Q-dance pills are magic, there is little to no way to be certain that what you are getting is authentic, considering that copy-cats are out there.
> 
> Also, I hope you don't mind me asking this, but it is something I have noticed. We have had several people come to this thread to post in favor of Q-dance. Usually, they are posters who have made very few posts to BL, and they are often newly registered posters. I see in your post history that all of your posts have been to this thread to advocate for Q-dance specifically. Are you particularly invested in the idea that Q-dance pills are quality? Do you have a lot of history with them?


Q-dance has their own fourm and vendorshop like most big name vendors. They change their press each batch to try avoid copy cats. Their skittles press was a strong 270 mg clean roll half of it is enough for a good  time with  a quarter booster for a 6 hour roll.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Any particular reagent come to mind?


A reagent to target the OH group would be the Tosyl Chloride and some organosilanes described in *this article*.
There are other reagents which selectively target the oxygen atoms, but I'll let the big boys answer that and about the chemoselective solvents, too.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> ... it is something I have noticed. We have had several people come to this thread to post in favor of Q-dance. Usually, they are *posters who have made very few posts to BL*, and they are often *newly registered posters*.


I noticed it, too.



indigoaura said:


> I see in your post history that all of your posts have been to this thread to advocate for Q-dance specifically. Are you particularly invested in the idea that Q-dance pills are quality?


Good question.


----------



## indigoaura

My Meh Samples: 








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8547 - MDMA, 8547
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org
				











						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8546 - MDMA, 8546
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.ecstasydata.org


----------



## indigoaura

These two samples are the same two that I sent to Vash. I have to go back through the thread and find the NMR for this sample: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8547

There was an additional peak on that NMR, and I think we considered MBDB as a possibility, due to similarity to a published NMR. I will have to find that part of the discussion. 
Edited to add: It was not MBDB that we discussed at that particular time.
Link to NMR: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14725832

The other sample was sent to Vash as well, but that one was lost. So, we never saw NMR for this result: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=8546

Of the two, the result with MBDB was the most "meh."


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> My Meh Samples:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8547 - MDMA, 8547
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8546 - MDMA, 8546
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ecstasydata.org



I find it very interesting that both samples have traces of MDA in them, which could hint at the synthesis method. Also, if you look at the Drugsdata results for MDMA + MDA, nearly all of the MDMA with a trace of MDA results are in the US. There's one MDMA sample apparently sent from NL, and a single pill in 2018, but otherwise you have to go back to 2012 to find European pills with MDA dosages low enough to be contaminants. I guess the synthesis methods (or just the labs) over there are more complete.
Edit: There's also a Finnish sample from 2015, but I recognize the vendor name the submitter used, they were Canadian.


----------



## RyybsNarcs

indigoaura said:


> Hi @RyybsNarcs
> 
> We have had people debating the quality of Q-dance in this thread. It has always seemed likely to me that there are knockoff Q-Dance pills as well as authentic Q-dance pills, and you cannot trust a stamp. This has always been true. Once a pill gets a good reputation, people try to copy it.
> 
> Some people here in the thread have had "magic" Q-dance, and others have had "meh" Q-dance. IMO, there is absolutely no way of knowing whether those people had the same pills or not, or whether they were authentic Q-dance or not.
> 
> Definitely let us know what your personal experience is, and which press you tried. What is your history of use? Are you new to MDMA or have you been using MDMA for awhile?
> 
> Also, Q-dance has a forum? I would like to read the entire post.
> 
> Sadly, even if authentic Q-dance pills are magic, there is little to no way to be certain that what you are getting is authentic, considering that copy-cats are out there.
> 
> Also, I hope you don't mind me asking this, but it is something I have noticed. We have had several people come to this thread to post in favor of Q-dance. Usually, they are posters who have made very few posts to BL, and they are often newly registered posters. I see in your post history that all of your posts have been to this thread to advocate for Q-dance specifically. Are you particularly invested in the idea that Q-dance pills are quality? Do you have a lot of history with them?



Q-Dance itself does not have a forum, but their official (and only?) vendor has. Is it allowed to post the vendors DN forum link here? 

I started using Bluelight after encountering the meh-MDMA problem, and reading this thread. I have zero chemistry experience so all my input here seems to be just about pills and my experiences.

As I said, I have seen a lot of positive reports about Q-Dance pills, from new and old users (for example, see user "theone" at pillreports.net) so I ended up buying Q-Dance pills as a best bet after getting meh product numerous times. I don't have any experience with Q-Dance pills yet.

I will do a report about Q-Dance yellow-red Pirelli's later, going to write about my history with MDMA too.


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

I mostly lurk this thread because I'm not a chemist. I'd like to learn more to contribute, are there any good places you guys would suggest for someone that's looking to self learn chemistry? My hope is to learn enough to justify going back to school to learn it properly.

Aside from my question: I have obtained some quality MDMA recently that isn't of the Meh-variety. 100mg of it sent me to the moon and provided that good old magic I remember from my youth. I know the source of this and the last couple of presses I obtained are from the EU. Everything I've had from that source has been magic. I'd like to start sending samples in to be tested or running tests on them at home that would be helpful. I know the thread has a lot of information but I haven't been able to get through all 250+ pages yet despite reading all I could over the past couple of months. Can anyone point me to the best place to send a sample to in the USA?

My source handles a lot of MDMA and several batches have come through that were underwhelming. They would like to contribute to these efforts because they want people to be safe and want to understand why some batches differ from others despite all of them testing positive for MDMA. It's scary that we can't tell the difference between MehDMA and non-Meh without someone taking the new batches.

Has anyone here run across MehDA before? I ask because my source always has both MDMA and MDA in stock most of the time. I'm someone that prefers MDA and I can never remember a batch of that coming through that could be described as MehDA. For whatever reason it seems like MDA hasn't changed at all while MDMA batches always seem to be hit or miss. The MDA has a habit of sitting around a lot longer than MDMA so maybe there is just no reason to take shortcuts when producing it? My source will rarely sell MDA to most people because of the neurotoxicity, duration, and the effects. It's mainly kept around for close friends and private get togethers. So the user base is a lot smaller but they are far more experienced than most of the locals that consume MDMA. If there was a Meh batch of MDA I'm sure most of them would be the first to complain. I can never recall any of them complaining and when MehDMA first started showing up here a lot of us just stopped taking it and switched over to only using MDA.


----------



## indigoaura

@HeadphonesandLSD, I was going to send you a PM, but I am not able to. Would you mind sending me a PM? Thanks in advance!

In the USA, we have Drugs Data but they will not provide the full information. You don't know the percentage purity or the total milligrams your pill contains. You can  pay more and send to International Energy Control, but I found their results a bit lackluster as well. Although, they are supposed to look at my sample again in more detail, and maybe they will provide better data the second time around. 

As others have said, if you have access to both, definitely hold on to both the meh and the magic so that as we try to figure everything out, you have samples in each category. One thing you could do now would be to order a full reagent test kit set from somewhere like Bunk Police or Dancesafe, and test each sample and see if you can determine any differences in how they each react to the various reagents. 

I absolutely agree that it is scary that there is no easy way to tell the difference other than consuming it, especially since we don't really know what is going on with the Meh samples or what kinds of contaminants might be present. 

Would you mind sharing your experience with MehDMA? How many times have you had it and what was it like for you? How would you describe the difference between regular magic MDMA and MehDMA? Have you been able to experience "magic" reliably from one product, but not from another?


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi I was also thinking that the trace MDA must have something to do with the synthesis methods used. The one with MBDB came from the USA, and the other sample came from Mexico.


----------



## indigoaura

Here is the link to the NMR that Vash ran on one of these same two samples: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14725832


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @Negi I was also thinking that the trace MDA must have something to do with the synthesis methods used. The one with MBDB came from the USA, and the other sample came from Mexico.


Most methylamine is made in ways that give ammonium chloride as a byproduct and although seperation is fairly good it's never 100% more like 98% and that 2% ammonia chloride impurity goes through most reactions the same as methylamine and ends up as MDA.


----------



## indigoaura

I am looking through the Erowid database on MBDB, and I have to say, it sounds very much like the MehDMA experience. Here are some quotes:



> When I tried to stand up I would feel tired and go back to the ground and lay down. The feeling of lethargy was quite extreme, and I thought I might fall asleep on several occasions. There was one moment of tremendous pressure at the peak, but an absence of the insight one would usually associate with similar compounds such as MDMA. I would not say it was a waste of time but it was difficult to integrate.





> There's a body buzz. Similar in presentation to the MDMA body buzz, but not nearly as enjoyable. If one can describe the MDMA body buzz as if ripples of joy were penetrating the skin and sinking deep into the flesh, then MBDB seems to have a warm fuzzy feeling only a few millimeters below the skin. If I had to scale it, I would say the buzz is 25% as enjoyable as what it is on MDMA.
> 
> There is a bit of an unpleasant cold sweat going on, we are cold, but sweating a bit under the arms and at the temples.
> 
> Simply put, MDMA gives you a swift kick in the ass after an hour. MBDB grows on you over the period of 40 minutes. MBDB will not surprise anyone.





> There are some empathetic qualities, but they seem to be a lot more introspective. I would find it very hard to use this under therapy. Its easy to reflect, but hard to communicate. There is just no desire to talk, but I feel closer to my wife just stretched out in the same couch with our legs interlocked. There is no desire to get up or do anything except stay put, relax, and trip.





> Anyone expecting an MDMA like experience will probably be very disappointed. Yes, the experience is similar, but only the side effects are virtually identical (nystagmus, body load, clenching). All of the fun properties of MDMA (body buzz, empathy, mild visuals, sounds and smells) are either very diminished or simply not there...


----------



## psy997

RyybsNarcs said:


> I have a couple of the newest Q-Dance pills, and I will try one in two weeks, and will do a report. I know my report telling whether those pills are magic or not won't really make any progress, but maybe it helps in this research if we know a source of MDMA that we can consider magic?



Please submit reports at https://mdma.noosworx.com


----------



## ThreePointCircle

HeadphonesandLSD said:


> I mostly lurk this thread because I'm not a chemist. I'd like to learn more to contribute, are there any good places you guys would suggest for someone that's looking to self learn chemistry? My hope is to learn enough to justify going back to school to learn it properly.
> 
> Aside from my question: I have obtained some quality MDMA recently that isn't of the Meh-variety. 100mg of it sent me to the moon and provided that good old magic I remember from my youth. I know the source of this and the last couple of presses I obtained are from the EU. Everything I've had from that source has been magic. I'd like to start sending samples in to be tested or running tests on them at home that would be helpful. I know the thread has a lot of information but I haven't been able to get through all 250+ pages yet despite reading all I could over the past couple of months. Can anyone point me to the best place to send a sample to in the USA?
> 
> My source handles a lot of MDMA and several batches have come through that were underwhelming. They would like to contribute to these efforts because they want people to be safe and want to understand why some batches differ from others despite all of them testing positive for MDMA. It's scary that we can't tell the difference between MehDMA and non-Meh without someone taking the new batches.
> 
> Has anyone here run across MehDA before? I ask because my source always has both MDMA and MDA in stock most of the time. I'm someone that prefers MDA and I can never remember a batch of that coming through that could be described as MehDA. For whatever reason it seems like MDA hasn't changed at all while MDMA batches always seem to be hit or miss. The MDA has a habit of sitting around a lot longer than MDMA so maybe there is just no reason to take shortcuts when producing it? My source will rarely sell MDA to most people because of the neurotoxicity, duration, and the effects. It's mainly kept around for close friends and private get togethers. So the user base is a lot smaller but they are far more experienced than most of the locals that consume MDMA. If there was a Meh batch of MDA I'm sure most of them would be the first to complain. I can never recall any of them complaining and when MehDMA first started showing up here a lot of us just stopped taking it and switched over to only using MDA.



Magic from the EU?  Surely not lol.

Well it would be interesting to compare the magic and meh samples by TLC.  I'll be updating my experiments with TLC, including precisely what I did, after I do some more on some bigger plates I've got on order.  Unfortunately I only ever encounter meh so can't do comparisons.  Feel free to dm me for more info.

As to MDA.  Yeah, everything I've tried (from EU or Canada) has been meh.  More visuals to be fair, and longer lasting, as typical of mda, but still meh with regards to things like euphoria.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

@indigoaura I just looked up reagent tests and MBDB.  I only found info for marquis, mandelin and mecke so far (quite a few blanks/unknowns).  The mecke reaction should apparently be yellow whereas for MDMA it should be intense blue or yellow.  With my TLC plate, I'm seeing dark blue for mecke for both spots, not yellow.

tbf, mdma should be green then blue for mecke but I've never seen the green phase.


----------



## Jmoda

hello - I have read this thread some long time ago. I see that it is still going strong, which is fantastic.

I stumbled upon this thread because I had an experience I think similar to what people would describe as mehMDMA. 30m-1hr for the rush upwards to kick in. Hit peak and then maybe an hour or so thereafter, just have a crazy huge drop off to where I would feel pretty much sober and then need to redose. (Everything I've had has been tested and strongly reviewed well)


A few points of interest, my experiences with mehMDMA and great MDMA seem to be a little counter to what I've read as anecdotes in these threads. The mehMDMA actually came from Canada for me and to date all the best experiences have come from various locations in Europe (although I would suspect the source is more than likely all from Holland). Additionally, maybe I'm just used to "today's" MDMA....(2006-2016), but for me the best rolls do not really exhibit a "hills and troughs rolling", for me the best rolls are just a constant never ending increase of the greatest feeling in the world (almost like you are constantly coming up from the prior point) until you hit a plateau of bliss that doesnt stop until you then start to taper off. In general, the only "peaks and troughs" will come if I'm just feeling so good that I hit my booster or second bump way too late (2hr mark vs 1/1.5).

One thing I do have to conclude as an outside and objective observer to all this conversation is that, and as much as I respect Le Junk, the dilated pupils theory seems to have been debunked. Plenty of people will have crazy dilation and feel meh in this thread. And It seems there have been plenty of great experiences it seems without it. I'll have to note it for next time...although if I do remember correctly most of us did get pretty dilated. 

With respects to look, I believe "snow white powder" can be achieved through crushing crystals and washing your product. There is no odor, visual, or taste (did you know some people, due to their taste buds being different, perceive chemical bitterness like that of MDMA as sour?) that will ever be able to differentiate good or bad product and the fact that i constantly see posts asserting otherwise is quite concerning. Personally, some of the best molly i've had has had various looks, be it cloudy surf-white, purple, or champagne gold...and various odors and tastes. A minor bit of anything can completely change the color or smell, or taste...doesnt mean it is bad product, also again  the acetone wash is available...

One other thing I would be quite curious about with the "old-timers". Is if they have tried the borax combo, or seemingly the "new" borax combo. It is supposedly very close, but longer and some prefer the experience over MDMA, I am curious how it compares for them.


----------



## Aeon Psyche

I'm actually surprised how strong some pills have become. I thought near 200mg was absolutely the maximum but now some pills are near 300mg that i have seen on extasydata or pillreports. I ordered 25 pills with 250mg and appearantly also MDPV. I've seen some 2c-b pills going around aswell. Cool.


----------



## indigoaura

More quotes on MBDB from Erowid. All of this sounds almost exactly like my experiences with MehDMA. These people describe it better than I have been able to.



> At the one hour point I decided on a booster of 150 mg, because* I didn’t feel satisfied.*





> My mood became dysphoric. I can only describe my feelings as being like* the negative mental after effects of speed or too much MDMA.*





> In many respects, this material is *more like alcohol than MDMA.*





> I think of it more like an exceedingly clean and nice alcohol buzz. Relaxing on the couch seems like all in the world I need to do at the time.



So, here is my question. If there are trace amounts of MBDB mixed with MDMA, does that have the potential to shift the entire tone of the experience?

I read this on Erowid as well in a Q&A with the creator of MBDB (Dave Nichols):



> *Would the effects of MBDB class it as an Hallucinogen?*
> 
> No, absolutely not, and even less so than MDMA. MBDB has an ethyl group
> attached to the side chain (see below). When you do this to an
> hallucinogenic phenethylamine derivative, it completely abolishes its
> hallucinogenic activity.





> ... the alpha-ethyl group in the side chain absolutely destroys hallucinogenic activity.




So, here is a question for the chemistry minded people here: Would the presence of that ethyl group side chain diminish the hallucinogenic activity of other substances taken at the same time?

Link: https://erowid.org/chemicals/mbdb/mbdb_info1.shtml


----------



## FuckinAcidMan

indigoaura said:


> More quotes on MBDB from Erowid. All of this sounds almost exactly like my experiences with MehDMA. These people describe it better than I have been able to.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, here is my question. If there are trace amounts of MBDB mixed with MDMA, does that have the potential to shift the entire tone of the experience?
> 
> I read this on Erowid as well in a Q&A with the creator of MBDB (Dave Nichols):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, here is a question for the chemistry minded people here: Would the presence of that ethyl group side chain diminish the hallucinogenic activity of other substances taken at the same time?
> 
> Link: https://erowid.org/chemicals/mbdb/mbdb_info1.shtml


wow that actually does sound a lot like the "off" MDxx that people in this thread have been talkin bout.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> So, here is a question for the chemistry minded people here: Would the presence of that ethyl group side chain diminish the hallucinogenic activity of other substances taken at the same time?


That is more of a question for a neuropharmacologist, like David Nutt.

Anyway, please note how similar MBDB is to M-ALPHA.  On that basis I would conjecture that their pharmacodynamic profile is similar, too.






I would not be surprised if M-ALPHA was misidentified as MBDB by an automatic library match, if that library did not have the M-ALPHA in it.
If someone was not paying attention (and unfortunate pyrolytic disproportionation happened in the analyzer), then even the M-ALPHA-HMCA could be mistaken for MBDB.
...and M-ALPHA-HMCA would not be in any current libraries for sure.


----------



## Negi

user666 said:


> That is more of a question for a neuropharmacologist, like David Nutt.
> 
> Anyway, please note how similar MBDB is to M-ALPHA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would not be surprised if M-ALPHA was classified as MBDB by an automatic library match if that library did not have the M-ALPHA in it.
> If someone was not paying close attention (or bad pyrolytic disproportionation happened), then even the M-ALPHA-HMCA could be mistaken for MBDB.
> ...and M-ALPHA-HMCA would not be in any libraries for sure.



They found a molar mass of 266.13 for M-ALPHA-HMCA, MBDB has one of 207.27. I don't think there was any confusion between the two.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> The mecke reaction should apparently be yellow whereas for MDMA it should be intense blue or yellow.  With my TLC plate, I'm seeing dark blue for mecke for both spots, not yellow.


Didn't you mention a yellow spot before ?


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> They found a molar mass of 266.13 for M-ALPHA-HMCA, MBDB has one of 207.27. I don't think there was any confusion between the two.


Yes, but another paper mentioned that these OH groups easily disproportionate pyrolytically in the analyzer and the entire molecules rarely reach the mass detector.
GC/MS often works more off of proportion of fragments than intact molecules.

Do we even know whether @indigoaura 's samples were tested by GC/MS ?   Once, when she asked for a full spectrum, she only received a UV spectrum, but I don't remember whether that was the same outfit.
Anyway UV spectroscopy cannot even distinguish between MDMA and M-ALPHA-HMCA so that method of analysis is unsuitable for resolving these compounds.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Negi said:


> They found a molar mass of 266.13 for M-ALPHA-HMCA, MBDB has one of 207.27. I don't think there was any confusion between the two.


In what report?  Sorry, did I miss something?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Didn't you mention a yellow spot before ?


Yellow was in the original sample (champagne crystal or whatever nonsense they used to describe it), also in the freebase dissolved in dcm, also in the spot pre-TLC, and still present (although moved somewhat up) after TLC.  Didn't react with any reagents but was visible to the naked eye.

Mecke on both of the interesting spot was not yellow.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> In what report?  Sorry, did I miss something?


The mass of the M-ALPHA-HMCA is in *that paper* which Negi found.  The mass of MBDB is well known and published even in the old references.
I agree with Negi that if the entire molecule reaches the mass detector, then it can hardly be confused due to this mass difference.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> The mass of the M-ALPHA-HMCA is in *that paper* which Negi found.  The mass of MBDB is well known and published even in the old references.
> I agree with Negi that if the entire molecule reaches the mass detector, then it can hardly be confused due to this mass difference.


Oh I see.  I was thinking that perhaps I missed the raw data from drugsdata


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Yellow was in the original sample (champagne crystal or whatever nonsense they used to describe it), also in the freebase dissolved in dcm, also in the spot pre-TLC, and still present (although moved somewhat up) after TLC.  Didn't react with any reagents but was visible to the naked eye.


Well, that yellow substance is something, even if it doesn't move much and is unidentified so far.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Well, that yellow substance is something, even if it doesn't move much and is unidentified so far.


Agreed, its very odd.  Visible to my eye but didn't react with marquis, mecke, mandelin, froedhe or liebermann.  And shifted with the TLC.


----------



## indigoaura

Here is a suggestion...

Maybe someone who has access to magic MDMA should obtain some MBDB and see if a small amount affects the magic quality of the roll.


----------



## indigoaura

Sorry...I just can't stop...

MORE comments on MBDB from Erowid:



> The urge to lie back and close my eyes is very strong. This is not party stuff, that's for sure... unless your idea of a party is to curl up in a corner somewhere with your eyes closed.





> This is a very drowsy MDMA-type experience.





> This is an odd drug. It's very much like MDMA, but without the energetic stimulant effect. It's introspective & contemplative feeling...





> The next day, I experienced some very significant hangover effects. This took me by surprise, as MDMA type drugs almost never give me any negative aftereffects (and when they do, they're clearly attributable to insufficient sleep afterwards). Usually, MDMA type drugs leave me feeling a very positive happy glow for several days. Not MBDB!





> Last, and most unusual, I experienced some *stomach effects. *I had some mild diarrhea as well as recurring waves of mild nausea for most of the day. I've certainly never experienced this from MDMA nor heard of people having next-day nausea from such drugs. This makes me wonder if perhaps there was more at play than just a hangover... perhaps I managed to get a stomach flu or something, and that this was responsible for some of what I thought was a hangover.



All of this is spot on for my experience of MehDMA.

The one thing that does not line up is that people report eye dilation. Maybe the MBDB in my sample is a misidentified similar compound.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

My friend doesn't get pupil dilation on mdma but hes on various meds. On the same batch together mine are full dark not a slither of colour left. It is possible indigo that you take anything that could interact with the pupil dilation effect?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> Here is a suggestion...
> 
> Maybe someone who has access to magic MDMA should obtain some MBDB and see if a small amount affects the magic quality of the roll.


Maybe I could try and get hold of some and see if it has the same rf value on TLC as either of the spots I'm seeing...


----------



## Negi

user666 said:


> Yes, but another paper mentioned that these OH groups easily disproportionate pyrolytically in the analyzer and the entire molecules rarely reach the mass detector.
> GC/MS often works more off of proportion of fragments than intact molecules.
> 
> Do we even know whether @indigoaura 's samples were tested by GC/MS ?   Once, when she asked for a full spectrum, she only received a UV spectrum, but I don't remember whether that was the same outfit.
> Anyway UV spectroscopy cannot even distinguish between MDMA and M-ALPHA-HMCA so that method of analysis is unsuitable for resolving these compounds.



They didn't just do basic UV and MS, if you read the paper they hit it with everything. The molar mass bit seems quite solid.


> LC-Q-TOF/MS  spectrometric  experiments  under  several  sets  of  conditions revealed  that the ion  peak  at m/z 267.1  is  a pseudo-molecular ion of compound A.Several  distinguishable  product  ions  (m/z 236.1, 177.1, 164.1, 147.0) were commonly generated from both compound A and the parent ion m/z 267.1 by respective LC-Q-TOF/MS  and  LC-Q-TOF/MS/MS  analyses. These  results  suggested  that  the m/z267.1  ion  is  the  pseudo-molecular ion ([M+H]+) of compound A (Fig. 5c). Based on mass spectral determination and NMR experiments (vide infra), it was concluded that compound A has the chemical formula C13H19N2O4. Despite the strong resemblance of their UV spectra, few distinguishable product ions were commonly generated from both compounds A and B. These results  imply  that  compounds A  and  B  bear identical  structural  motifs  that  are  connected  differently. Although the peak at m/z 236.1 indicated that the parent ion ([M+H]+) at m/z 267.1 transitions to a daughter ion by losing –NH2CH3, we could not determine any substantial structural information for compound A at this stage.



It was identified using NMR, and then they even synthesized it to double check.


> The structure of compound A was further confirmed by the synthesis of its proposed structure. The 1H-and 13C-NMR spectra of the newly synthesized compound A were in good agreement with those of the isolated one(Fig.S14-S17).


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> They didn't just do basic UV and MS, if you read the paper they hit it with everything. The molar mass bit seems quite solid.
> It was identified using NMR, and then they even synthesized it to double check.


Negi, you misunderstand - I do not doubt the molar mass of M-ALPHA-HMCA as described in that Korean paper.
...but I doubt the other drug labs to be so diligent.


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

indigoaura said:


> @HeadphonesandLSD, I was going to send you a PM, but I am not able to. Would you mind sending me a PM? Thanks in advance!



I'll send you a PM as soon as I can or change the settings. I had to change those because I would get random PMs from new users trying to ask me for sources and what-not.



> As others have said, if you have access to both, definitely hold on to both the meh and the magic so that as we try to figure everything out, you have samples in each category. One thing you could do now would be to order a full reagent test kit set from somewhere like Bunk Police or Dancesafe, and test each sample and see if you can determine any differences in how they each react to the various reagents.



I have samples of both and keeping them around shouldn't be an issue. We test all of them on multiple reagent test kits and have not noted much difference between batches. At best some will just take longer to react but there never seems to be a pattern between Meh and MDMA that we can find. Everything that comes through that isn't bunk/something else always tends to react as MDMA in testing. It is really frustrating.



> Would you mind sharing your experience with MehDMA? How many times have you had it and what was it like for you? How would you describe the difference between regular magic MDMA and MehDMA? Have you been able to experience "magic" reliably from one product, but not from another?



MehDMA for me feels like a come-up that never breaks through to the magic. I would describe it as cold, underwhelming, and moreish. It reminds me a lot of Mephedrone in many ways but doesn't even feel as good as that. There is no push to do things on MehDMA for me. It feels a bit stoning and I'm content just laying around like I do on opioids. I can see why it would fool a new user because it does feel good just not as good as MDMA is supposed to feel. Even when I take MDMA in a home setting I want to get up and do things. For example I might get lost in a video game with good music, my skills at said game will improve because I'm thinking and reacting faster, I hear notes in the music that I wouldn't normally notice. MehDMA just puts me in a place where I feel fucked up, content, and willing to sit around watching TV for the duration. Now that I'm attempting to describe it I'm having a hard time. 

One thing I've noticed about MehDMA is the fact that it seems to mimic the effects of dosing MDMA too close together. Unlike most here my tolerance has not been shot from years of use/abuse. I can still count the number of times I've taken MDMA on my two hands (quickly coming up on use 10 in 2 decades). MehDMA after a long break is like taking MDMA a few nights or perhaps a week after having taken it before. MehDMA makes me the feel the same way MDMA did when I attempted to take it for the third time in the span of one month. Basically, I just get a lot of side effects, minimal euphoria, and it all just seems like a waste. It feels different enough from the good MDMA that I know it can't be the same drug though. The sedation really is the main tell for me.

Don't get me wrong. Having taken good MDMA in a home setting multiple times I can tell you it's certainly possible to relax/lay around on it. The difference between Meh and Magic for me is the speed of my mind and the types of things I think about during the peak. On magic MDMA my mind goes really fast and I find myself thinking about all of the people in my life and how much they all love me and I love them. On MehDMA I don't get much of this and it's replaced by thoughts similar to opioids. By that I mean my thoughts seem more focused on myself and not the relationships I've built in my life. I don't think MehDMA could save a marriage.

I was lucky enough that I caught the tail end of the 90s MDMA that all of you seem to rave about. I can attest that there were a lot of magic in those tablets back then. When I came back to MDMA after decades away from it my first encounter was with MehDMA and Mephedrone. Not being one to like speed/cocaine I didn't find too much value in either of those. After some time I found my current source and when I took the first press I knew I'd rediscovered the good old magic. It's like night and day when you compare the two. Having built up a friendship with this source over the years we've both spent a lot of time talking about this problem. No one seems to have an answer for why some batches test clean and give every indication that they're good only to disappoint hundreds of people in one night. The problem has gotten so bad now that I know lots of folks that just refuse to use MDMA any longer. Some just switched to MDA, some just gave up on things all together or moved on to RCs, some probably wouldn't feel good MDMA at all considering how much they've taken in their lives. I think that's why this is so hard to pin down because there are just so many variables.

All I know is that I can feel the difference, everything I take is tested, and my history of use means I shouldn't be dealing with any issues of tolerance. Last year I gifted a press to someone and they called me from a show complaining how the pill did nothing and that I should complain to the source. They later complained to the source themselves. I kept the other pill and took it on vacation. It ended up being one of the strongest rolls I've ever had and that was with a bit of tolerance because I had taken MDMA a month or two before my trip. The pill tested at some 250+mgs which is double my usual dose. It should have blew that guys head off but he abused mints so much over the years that he couldn't feel anything anymore and his body would instantly reject MDMA when he swallowed it most of the time (he'd puke it out within minutes of taking any press or capsule).



ThreePointCircle said:


> Magic from the EU?  Surely not lol.
> 
> Well it would be interesting to compare the magic and meh samples by TLC.  I'll be updating my experiments with TLC, including precisely what I did, after I do some more on some bigger plates I've got on order.  Unfortunately I only ever encounter meh so can't do comparisons.  Feel free to dm me for more info.
> 
> As to MDA.  Yeah, everything I've tried (from EU or Canada) has been meh.  More visuals to be fair, and longer lasting, as typical of mda, but still meh with regards to things like euphoria.



I'll send you a PM as well. I'm surprised to hear you have Meh MDA. Perhaps we've just been lucky here and haven't ended up with any MehDA.


----------



## indigoaura

> MehDMA after a long break is like taking MDMA a few nights or perhaps a week after having taken it before. MehDMA makes me the feel the same way MDMA did when I attempted to take it for the third time in the span of one month. Basically, I just get a lot of side effects, minimal euphoria, and it all just seems like a waste. It feels different enough from the good MDMA that I know it can't be the same drug though. The sedation really is the main tell for me.



This is why the problem is so insidious. Thank you for posting, because we need posters like you who can comment on the issue without the nagging doubt of "loss of magic." Hard to find people who have been around long enough to have experienced the range of MDMA product variation, but have not used enough MDMA for there to be a question about whether or not it is the user. 

I realize that my history of use makes me one of the questionable users. However, I agree with you that the difference in effect is noticeable enough that you can tell it is a different drug.  After a 5 year break, when my partner did MehDMA (the sample that contained the MBDB) he said it was not worth his time, and just, "a collection of symptoms/side effects." I'd adapted to it and grown used to the minimal effects, but hearing his reaction motivated me to try to figure out what was going on.


----------



## Simosom

I have a message to qdance, partyflock, cp and other big mehdma labs, all they advocates who for sure are following this amazing thread. 
With all your tools, knowledge and now with valuable information that this thread can offer you.
 You have a chance to be first who can indentify what is wrong with mdma available today, improve your production, increase the quality, decrease quantity, make a huge profit and make us all happy again


----------



## indigoaura

Unfortunately, the pills that I just obtained are not MDMA.

I did a full set of reagent tests on them.

Marquis - odd, slow purple reaction (I thought, ok, maybe the reagent is old, no biggie)
Mecke - Straight to black on contact with no intermediate green
Lieberman - Black/Brown
Mandelin - Purple/Black
Simon's - No response

Edited to add: I know how extremely unlikely it is, but the results almost looked like heroin on the chart. 

Just to be sure my Simon's was not bad, I tested another sample and it turned blue with no issue.

Sending one in for testing to see what it is.


----------



## indigoaura

Good news for all you Q-dance pushers in the thread...

Someone in the US seems to have them. So, I will give it a go. Onward for science. Yes, they appear to have the NL stamp on the back.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> Good news for all you Q-dance pushers in the thread...
> 
> Someone in the US seems to have them. So, I will give it a go. Onward for science. Yes, they appear to have the NL stamp on the back.


Yeah I'm waiting for some as well.  I'm working on the formula: P(magic) = P(real QDance) * P(QDance = Magic) = 0.1 * 0.1 = 1 in a hundred but at this point its worth a try


----------



## popsweat

keep in mind those qdance you guys are referring to (assuming green-yellow) have been in circulation for 6 months already and there are already many copies out. Hopefully its the real deal!


----------



## ThreePointCircle

For me it is the orange/white ones which seemed more recent on drugsdata.  But quite happy to accept those maybe fake.


----------



## indigoaura

popsweat said:


> keep in mind those qdance you guys are referring to (assuming green-yellow) have been in circulation for 6 months already and there are already many copies out. Hopefully its the real deal!



Ug. So, do you recommend just not bothering? Do you think it is likely just a copycat?


----------



## popsweat

indigoaura said:


> Ug. So, do you recommend just not bothering? Do you think it is likely just a copycat?



Its hard to say. I always try to go for the newest press in circulation (which are currently the pirellis/wifis) before the copies come out. But it could just be old stock dealers are trying to move. Maybe see if you can grab the minimum amount and test for yourself


----------



## montyvan

Le Junk said:


> *NOTE:* A handy draft summary (work-in-progress) of some of the key content covered in this thread can be accessed *⫸HERE⫷*
> 
> 
> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!




I gotta say I would LOVE to try the stuff you had in 85, the quality of this drug has gone to shit over the years. I did it in 1994 and my experience was a lot like you described. It made me wonder why the government never made this a weapon on war. I don't see how anyone would want to fight or harm another person while experiencing this heaven like feeling. I'd love to see the everyone on this drug at the same time, all the hate, racism, jealousy, and anger would just melt away. A perfect world. I never could understand how this drug could make someone feel that good. Is your contact still producing this by chance? Seems the world could use a little love and warm feelings these days.


----------



## indigoaura

popsweat said:


> Its hard to say. I always try to go for the newest press in circulation (which are currently the pirellis/wifis) before the copies come out. But it could just be old stock dealers are trying to move. Maybe see if you can grab the minimum amount and test for yourself



Problem is that there just are not USA suppliers with Q-Dance. This is the first one I have seen. They would have had to import it from EU. Maybe that took time?


----------



## RyybsNarcs

indigoaura said:


> Problem is that there just are not USA suppliers with Q-Dance. This is the first one I have seen. They would have had to import it from EU. Maybe that took time?


What's the print on the pills you can find?

Fake yellow-green CBF and white-blue Skype's were made in South America, so it's a big possibility that those pills are fake if you see them in the USA.


----------



## indigoaura

RyybsNarcs said:


> What's the print on the pills you can find?
> 
> Fake yellow-green CBF and white-blue Skype's were made in South America, so it's a big possibility that those pills are fake if you see them in the USA.



Unfortunately, it is the yellow green CBF, being sold as "Brazucas." Were the Skypes ever Q-Dance, or were they always someone else's press?


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

As Indigoaura stated, "MDMA is contaminated with an isomer that is a synthesis byproduct" and that is the most sensible theory to me. It also makes sense in explaining the different degrees of "Meh" as there probably are different % of contaminant in different batches. 

Nichols states (regarding MBDB) "The alpha-ethyl in the side chain abolishes hallucinogenic activity" (https://erowid.org/chemicals/mbdb/mbdb_info1.shtml). 
As MehDMA is effective as a trip killer (only potentially useful effect of MehDMA to me), I guess it is likely that MBDB or something similar with an alpha-ethyl in the side chain is the culprit we need to identify and - if possible - remove.

As meltingpoints differ between MDMA & MBDB, could destilation be a feasible way to remove any suspect MBDB?

What do those of you with chemistry knowledge say?

Maybe the reason the producers don't remove the contaminant is because it is very difficult to do so?


----------



## Negi

From my reading of that interview he is talking about the lack of any hallucinogenic activity directly caused by MBDB, not attributing it any properties to act as an anti-psychotic and terminate any other hallucinogenic activity.



> *Q: Would the effects of MBDB class it as an Hallucinogen?*
> 
> A; No, absolutely not, and even less so than MDMA. MBDB has an ethyl group
> attached to the side chain (see below). When you do this to an
> hallucinogenic phenethylamine derivative, it completely abolishes its
> hallucinogenic activity.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

HeadphonesandLSD said:


> I'll send you a PM as soon as I can or change the settings. I had to change those because I would get random PMs from new users trying to ask me for sources and what-not.
> 
> 
> 
> I have samples of both and keeping them around shouldn't be an issue. We test all of them on multiple reagent test kits and have not noted much difference between batches. At best some will just take longer to react but there never seems to be a pattern between Meh and MDMA that we can find. Everything that comes through that isn't bunk/something else always tends to react as MDMA in testing. It is really frustrating.
> 
> 
> 
> MehDMA for me feels like a come-up that never breaks through to the magic. I would describe it as cold, underwhelming, and moreish. It reminds me a lot of Mephedrone in many ways but doesn't even feel as good as that. There is no push to do things on MehDMA for me. It feels a bit stoning and I'm content just laying around like I do on opioids. I can see why it would fool a new user because it does feel good just not as good as MDMA is supposed to feel. Even when I take MDMA in a home setting I want to get up and do things. For example I might get lost in a video game with good music, my skills at said game will improve because I'm thinking and reacting faster, I hear notes in the music that I wouldn't normally notice. MehDMA just puts me in a place where I feel fucked up, content, and willing to sit around watching TV for the duration. Now that I'm attempting to describe it I'm having a hard time.
> 
> One thing I've noticed about MehDMA is the fact that it seems to mimic the effects of dosing MDMA too close together. Unlike most here my tolerance has not been shot from years of use/abuse. I can still count the number of times I've taken MDMA on my two hands (quickly coming up on use 10 in 2 decades). MehDMA after a long break is like taking MDMA a few nights or perhaps a week after having taken it before. MehDMA makes me the feel the same way MDMA did when I attempted to take it for the third time in the span of one month. Basically, I just get a lot of side effects, minimal euphoria, and it all just seems like a waste. It feels different enough from the good MDMA that I know it can't be the same drug though. The sedation really is the main tell for me.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. Having taken good MDMA in a home setting multiple times I can tell you it's certainly possible to relax/lay around on it. The difference between Meh and Magic for me is the speed of my mind and the types of things I think about during the peak. On magic MDMA my mind goes really fast and I find myself thinking about all of the people in my life and how much they all love me and I love them. On MehDMA I don't get much of this and it's replaced by thoughts similar to opioids. By that I mean my thoughts seem more focused on myself and not the relationships I've built in my life. I don't think MehDMA could save a marriage.
> 
> I was lucky enough that I caught the tail end of the 90s MDMA that all of you seem to rave about. I can attest that there were a lot of magic in those tablets back then. When I came back to MDMA after decades away from it my first encounter was with MehDMA and Mephedrone. Not being one to like speed/cocaine I didn't find too much value in either of those. After some time I found my current source and when I took the first press I knew I'd rediscovered the good old magic. It's like night and day when you compare the two. Having built up a friendship with this source over the years we've both spent a lot of time talking about this problem. No one seems to have an answer for why some batches test clean and give every indication that they're good only to disappoint hundreds of people in one night. The problem has gotten so bad now that I know lots of folks that just refuse to use MDMA any longer. Some just switched to MDA, some just gave up on things all together or moved on to RCs, some probably wouldn't feel good MDMA at all considering how much they've taken in their lives. I think that's why this is so hard to pin down because there are just so many variables.
> 
> All I know is that I can feel the difference, everything I take is tested, and my history of use means I shouldn't be dealing with any issues of tolerance. Last year I gifted a press to someone and they called me from a show complaining how the pill did nothing and that I should complain to the source. They later complained to the source themselves. I kept the other pill and took it on vacation. It ended up being one of the strongest rolls I've ever had and that was with a bit of tolerance because I had taken MDMA a month or two before my trip. The pill tested at some 250+mgs which is double my usual dose. It should have blew that guys head off but he abused mints so much over the years that he couldn't feel anything anymore and his body would instantly reject MDMA when he swallowed it most of the time (he'd puke it out within minutes of taking any press or capsule).
> 
> 
> 
> I'll send you a PM as well. I'm surprised to hear you have Meh MDA. Perhaps we've just been lucky here and haven't ended up with any MehDA.



This matches my observations of mehDMA exactly. I always take MDMA at home on my own these days, which I'm willing to concede is not the best setting to induce a magic experience - I believe you need a social setting for that to happen. But when I chance upon the good stuff, even my solitary rolls are exhilarating and satisfying. This doesn't happen with the meh. I still enjoy it, but I just don't get 'there' and as you say, it's similar to the tolerance effects when you've had too much of the good stuff.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> I am looking through the Erowid database on MBDB, and I have to say, it sounds very much like the MehDMA experience. Here are some quotes:


It's not meh at all.its fukn magical.its better than mdma.mbdb is not responsible for meh.i know this from about 50 experiences.nothing meh about it


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> Sorry...I just can't stop...
> 
> MORE comments on MBDB from Erowid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of this is spot on for my experience of MehDMA.
> 
> The one thing that does not line up is that people report eye dilation. Maybe the MBDB in my sample is a misidentified similar compound.


It only takes 70mg mbdb to cause severely noticeable eye dilation and a good time


----------



## RyybsNarcs

indigoaura said:


> Unfortunately, it is the yellow green CBF, being sold as "Brazucas." Were the Skypes ever Q-Dance, or were they always someone else's press?


Bi-layer Skype's are Q-Dance pills. Here is a list about Q-Dance pills:



> Apple/Pink/2007/120mg
> 
> Armani/Green//2007/130mg
> 
> Puma/Pink/2007/140mg
> 
> JamesBond/Pink/2008/130mg
> 
> Here came the MDMA drought
> 
> Heart/Pink/2009/110mg
> 
> VW/Orange/2010/125mg
> 
> Q-Dance/Orange/2010/180mg
> 
> Here started a new era for the team ￼
> 
> Stars/Pink/2010/130mg
> 
> DomPerignon/Green/2010/130mg
> 
> LouisVuitton/Gold/2010/140mg
> 
> Defqon/Red/2011/160mg
> 
> Elephant/Green/2011/140mg
> 
> Zelda/Green/2011/140mg
> 
> PartyFlock/Purple/2013/200mg
> 
> MortalKombat/Red/2013/200mg
> 
> Android/Green/2013/200mg
> 
> MarioBullits/Yellow/2013/200mg
> 
> PartyFlock/Green/2013/200mg
> 
> Bitcoins/Yellow/2014/200mg
> 
> Androids/Blue/2014/210mg
> 
> Until here all pills where round shape, with outpressed logo
> 
> ChuppaChups/Red/2014/140mg
> 
> First 3D logo, ChuppaChupa, from now all are 3D
> 
> WiFi/Orange/2014/220mg
> 
> Goldbars/Gold/2014/220mg
> 
> Heineken/Green/2014/220mg
> 
> Burgerking/Orange/2014/240mg
> 
> UPS/Red/2015/220mg
> 
> Defqon1/Red/2015/220mg
> 
> End of Single Color pill production, from KitKat and on all pills are duo color now
> 
> KitKat/Red-White/2016/130mg
> 
> Ikea/Blue-Yellow/2016/220mg
> 
> Skype/Blue-Whote/2016/220mg
> 
> M&M's/Red-Yellow/2017/220mg
> 
> iPhoneX/Gold-White/2018/220mg
> 
> TechnoGym/Yellow-White/2018/220mg
> 
> HarleyDavidson/Red//2018/20mg 2-CB
> 
> WiFi/Green-White/2018/220mg
> 
> TicTac/Green-White/2019/220mg
> 
> Skype/Pink-Purple/2019/220mg
> 
> TicTac/3 single colors 1 bag/2019/180mg
> 
> Brazucas/Green-Yellow/2019/220mg
> 
> Pirelli/Red-Yellow/2020/220mg
> 
> MarioMushroom/Green/2020/25mg 2-CB
> 
> WiFi/Pink-Orange/2020/220mg
> 
> /QUOTE]


----------



## draculic acid69

PsychedelicSummer said:


> As Indigoaura stated, "MDMA is contaminated with an isomer that is a synthesis byproduct" and that is the most sensible theory to me. It also makes sense in explaining the different degrees of "Meh" as there probably are different % of contaminant in different batches.
> 
> Nichols states (regarding MBDB) "The alpha-ethyl in the side chain abolishes hallucinogenic activity" (https://erowid.org/chemicals/mbdb/mbdb_info1.shtml).
> As MehDMA is effective as a trip killer (only potentially useful effect of MehDMA to me), I guess it is likely that MBDB or something similar with an alpha-ethyl in the side chain is the culprit we need to identify and - if possible - remove.
> 
> As meltingpoints differ between MDMA & MBDB, could destilation be a feasible way to remove any suspect MBDB?
> 
> What do those of you with chemistry knowledge say?
> 
> Maybe the reason the producers don't remove the contaminant is because it is very difficult to do so?


You could seperate mdma from mbdb with distillation but you wouldn't bother. Of those two meh samples that came back with one having mbdb in trace amounts I can't explain but what I can point out is two meh samples and only one had mbdb meaning mbdb cannot be responsible for meh or it would have been in both samples.everyone needs to stop ragging on mbdb.


----------



## jedimafia

MBDB or not I can say with certainty Q-Dance has been meh for years!  Granted it's probably the best in circulation!  It appears to me that the sensitivity to these impurities vary from person to person.  Personally the experiences of MDDB fairly accurately explain mine.  The more meh it is, the more i puke!


----------



## Jmoda

"On magic MDMA my mind goes really fast and I find myself thinking about all of the people in my life and how much they all love me and I love them."


Damn. I think I may finally understand what you're talking about. Funny enough, more recently, I've been kind of surprised that I had not done this....normally I get this really big push to text all my friends that I'm not there in the moment with, about how much I love them and want to be in that same moment together. I thought maybe it was because we combo everything now with a just above threshold dose of a psych....I guess hard to definitively say without removing that variable, but could fit the profile.

Hmmmm.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

A post from an old timer over in EADD:

"The tiny hearts and smilies that came before the "manc presses" were actually made in China and imported in the millions then there was a little gap and a lack of large scale MDMA from Holland in 2010,

The first presses from the above named crew were actually Mayan 11s and Supermen both containing Mdma and speed and Caffeine 100/25/25 at the same time another crew also started the 140s which were also to start with a mix of 100mg Mdma and the other 40 was speed or ephedrine before they stuck to 140mg MDMA.


Then came the Smarties, which were done in 2 batches, the first a mix of 7 different batches of Mdma and Mda that had been saved up over 2010. And that was why they were so good, it was also about 15-20mg Mda in each pill. The second batch of Smarties probably only had a mix of 3 or 4 different Mdma batches in them but still 140mg Md content in them.

Then came the legos which weren't as good and contained grey Mdma that was the most common in Europe at the time and made in 2 tonne batches in NL at a time but was in fact a mixture of Pmk from one source and Pmk converted from Safrole by the cook.

The Mario's and luigis are a funny one, Mario was one kind of mdma and luigi a different not as good kind that I think had been through bromo safrole.

The mdma in the luigis was brown and stinky however not very good and didnt last long I was given it to try and my opinion was put it in the luigis and if anyone says anything then you cab always say luigi was never as good as Mario.

It's funny how both the legos and the Mario/luigis changed the look of many pills for years to come with more nintendo and lego related designs than anyone had thought of before.

As for what happened next all I know is for a while it was always 140mg just Mdma and nearly always good quality but this is down to the cook. It did from what I gather go up to 200mg to keep up with the rest of the presses at some point.

Pmk glycidate argument can go on forever but I definitely think even though it converts very easily in to Pmk that the end product regardless of the way the amination is done perhaps is not the same."


Make of that what you will...


----------



## user666

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Pmk glycidate argument can go on forever


No, it stops at the injector port of the analyzer.
However the argument about the logos embossed on pills can go on forever.



F.U.B.A.R. said:


> but I definitely think even though it converts very easily in to Pmk that the end product regardless of the way the amination is done perhaps is not the same."


There is no "perhaps" about it.  There is no problem with the reductive amination of pure PMK.  There problem is with the amidation and epoxide ring-opening of the unpurified glycidate moiety by methylamine, which the recent Lee paper documents.


----------



## indigoaura

@draculic acid69 -Not trying to knock MBDB. One thing it said on Erowid was that individual response to the compound was highly variable. From the bulk of user reports to Erowid, however, seems like many people find it underwhelming and sedating. At the very least, many people describe something that sounds very in line with what I have experienced from MehDMA. Maybe the contaminant in my product is not even MBDB at all, but something similar. I don't know. I am just looking at avenues as they present themselves.



> MBDB has, in general, effects similar to MDMA. However, it is my impression
> that the nature of the effects with MBDB is much more variable. Some
> individuals reported that they experienced effects almost identical to MDMA,
> while others found the substance even dysphoric. Clearly, on average, the
> compound does not produce the degree of euphoria, and feeling good, that is
> produced by MDMA.








						Erowid MBDB Vault : Effects Compared with other Drugs
					

MBDB Effects Compared with Other Drugs...Some Questions Answered by Dave Nichols.



					erowid.org


----------



## OzzBozz

Has anyone tried the newest qdance yellow/green brazucas?


----------



## indigoaura

OzzBozz said:


> Has anyone tried the newest qdance yellow/green brazucas?



@RyybsNarcs  just told me they are not the newest, and they have been copied and there are fakes going around.


----------



## OzzBozz

indigoaura said:


> @RyybsNarcs  just told me they are not the newest, and they have been copied and there are fakes going around.




This press specifically or qdance in general?


----------



## indigoaura

OzzBozz said:


> This press specifically or qdance in general?



That press specifically, but there are other fakes going around too (such as Skype).


----------



## ThreePointCircle

So for science I tried a qdance (or claimed qdance) last night.  1.25 pills to be exact.  Pink and white iPhoneX.  Beautiful looking press with clean NL stamp on the back etc.

And the result?.... meh.  No surprises there then.


----------



## Negi

ThreePointCircle said:


> So for science I tried a qdance (or claimed qdance) last night.  1.25 pills to be exact.  Pink and white iPhoneX.  Beautiful looking press with clean NL stamp on the back etc.
> 
> And the result?.... meh.  No surprises there then.


Did you take 1.25 pills all at once or was that your total dose?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Negi said:


> Did you take 1.25 pills all at once or was that your total dose?


All at once.  I assumed it would be meh plus I'm pretty big (muscles and padding   ).  What I do find interesting is that when I take a bit more, it doesn't become any less meh but the tail gets slightly visual.  I assumed this was mdma metabolising into mda.  So that would add more to the idea of an active contaminant spoiling the roll rather than it not being mdma in the first place.  Unless the fake mdma metabolised into a fake mda but I feel that's a bit of a stretch.

It really feels like you start coming up (late, and slow ramp) and then something cuts it off.


----------



## indigoaura

ThreePointCircle said:


> All at once.  I assumed it would be meh plus I'm pretty big (muscles and padding   ).  What I do find interesting is that when I take a bit more, it doesn't become any less meh but the tail gets slightly visual.  I assumed this was mdma metabolising into mda.  So that would add more to the idea of an active contaminant spoiling the roll rather than it not being mdma in the first place.  Unless the fake mdma metabolised into a fake mda but I feel that's a bit of a stretch.
> 
> It really feels like you start coming up (late, and slow ramp) and then something cuts it off.



Or, it is like the two samples I just sent in, and there is trace MDA in each sample anyway. Perhaps MDA is also a byproduct that is contained in some MehDMA samples. 

I agree that MehDMA always feels like you are coming up and approaching the peak, but then it is aborted before it gets there.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> Or, it is like the two samples I just sent in, and there is trace MDA in each sample anyway. Perhaps MDA is also a byproduct that is contained in some MehDMA samples.
> 
> I agree that MehDMA always feels like you are coming up and approaching the peak, but then it is aborted before it gets there.


Good point.  Well I guess it keeps coming back to the need for in depth analysis to work out what is really going on


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Talking of which, I got bigger TLC plates but they have a different binder and the system I have been using moved the main spot almost all the way to the top.  I need to play with the system again to get proper separation of any other spots.  I don't get the publishing of rf values for TLC if there are so many variables that effect it.


----------



## popsweat

ThreePointCircle said:


> So for science I tried a qdance (or claimed qdance) last night.  1.25 pills to be exact.  Pink and white iPhoneX.  Beautiful looking press with clean NL stamp on the back etc.
> 
> And the result?.... meh.  No surprises there then.



I looked that one up on pill reports and look at the report. Does it sound like magic or meh?

*seph765 (member since February 28, 2017) *
Tried this pill the other weekend had a couple of lines of md fairly spaced apart then after another while took half and went from pretty sweet to being mega fucked with eye wiggled and a serious gurn hands down the best pill I've tried ended up not needing the other half competitively as strong probably stronger feeling than the bi-colour Ikeas by the qdance crew as well probably won't get myself any other pill besides these until they disappear or start to be copied
*November 28, 2018, 5:02 am GMT*


----------



## ThreePointCircle

popsweat said:


> I looked that one up on pill reports and look at the report. Does it sound like magic or meh?
> 
> *seph765 (member since February 28, 2017) *
> Tried this pill the other weekend had a couple of lines of md fairly spaced apart then after another while took half and went from pretty sweet to being mega fucked with eye wiggled and a serious gurn hands down the best pill I've tried ended up not needing the other half competitively as strong probably stronger feeling than the bi-colour Ikeas by the qdance crew as well probably won't get myself any other pill besides these until they disappear or start to be copied
> *November 28, 2018, 5:02 am GMT*


Eye wiggles I got, and do get on mehdma, and especially mehda.  Gurning too.  No word from that post about euphoria.  I mean come on, mdma got called ecstasy for a reason.  Its the lack of euphoria which is the number one issue I have with this stuff.

I obviously can't speak for person who wrote the report but I get the feeling that, due to lack of experience of the real thing, there is a generation of people coming through that think a pill is amazing if it gets them somewhat wasted and gives odd effects like eye wiggles.  So yeah, sounds like a meh report to me.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I think this is partly how this problem has been allowed to grow.  Someone asked earlier why would anyone keep taking meh if its so crap.  I think its fair to say that meh can be enjoyable.  But its at the 2 - 3 out of 10 level, compared to the 9 - 10 level that the old stuff was.  If someone hasn't had the 9-10 they assume the 2-3 is 9-10.


----------



## popsweat

ThreePointCircle said:


> I think this is partly how this problem has been allowed to grow.  Someone asked earlier why would anyone keep taking meh if its so crap.  I think its fair to say that meh can be enjoyable.  But its at the 2 - 3 out of 10 level, compared to the 9 - 10 level that the old stuff was.  If someone hasn't had the 9-10 they assume the 2-3 is 9-10.



I agree if you look on the reddit mdma sub everyone says almost every batch and every press is fire


----------



## psy997

I have multiple friends and have known many others who say they love, are super impressed by, etc. batches that are MehDMA. People are idiots, or believe that something is wrong with them (Meh lends itself to that kind of experience anyways IME).


----------



## Negi

Once again it seems pretty clear that the range of effects and perceived quality that people assign to "mehDMA" is so broad as to be largely useless. ThreePointCircle is finds that eye wiggles (nystagmus) to be a sign of "mehDMA" when others in the thread have identified it as a sign of real "magic MDMA" (that is almost completely absent in "mehDMA").


ThreePointCircle said:


> and gives odd effects like eye wiggles





babooon87 said:


> For me it is the nystagmus that has always been a huge staple of MDMA and that I never got AT ALL on any batches since 2009, even the ones that felt magic in all other ways. In fact that effect was what always what made me confident that what I had was MDMA/MDA since no other drugs produced that as consistently.
> 
> Anyone else remember being absolutely unable to read or write a text while peaking because of the double vision ? I haven't had and haven't heard of anyone discussing having that " issue " for years.




One of the major arguments against "mehDMA" being a issue of tolerance or magic loss is that even first time MDMA users given a "meh" dose find the experience disappointing, and can't find pleasurable effects in it. Yet people in the thread are assigning the "meh" label to MDMA that others are clearly enjoying and claiming great effects from.


psy997 said:


> I have multiple friends and have known many others who say they love, are super impressed by, etc. batches that are MehDMA. People are idiots, or believe that something is wrong with them (Meh lends itself to that kind of experience anyways IME).




This is why I have been trying to get people to categorize exactly what they are getting from "mehDMA" (and what "magic MDMA" means to them).


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Negi said:


> Once again it seems pretty clear that the range of effects and perceived quality that people assign to "mehDMA" is so broad as to be largely useless. ThreePointCircle is finds that eye wiggles (nystagmus) to be a sign of "mehDMA" when others in the thread have identified it as a sign of real "magic MDMA" (that is almost completely absent in "mehDMA").


Not really.  I think the main characteristics have been remarkably consistent.  Lack of euphoria plus short duration and feeling that it is being 'cut short'.  Meh is meh in the sense that it pales compared to magic, not that it lacks anything that can possibly be valued as enjoyable.

Other effects like the eye wiggles to me are minor and variable.  I should say that last night the eye wobbles were far from strong and I know that they can be a pleasurable effect and adds to the wasted feeling.

It is pretty cool when the eye wobbles entrain with a sort of visual editing effect.  However, I'm thinking I've only had that intensely when adding or taking just mda.  I can't honestly remember exactly though as the euphoria is the main thing that I'm concentrating on for now and making a note of.  If I'm right about the mda thing, then higher dose mdma should do it as it metabolising to mda I think.


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi 

That is what this is supposed to be. I did not have nystagmus on this chart. I have had nystagmus with both Magic and Meh, and I have not had nystagmus with both. I don't personally see it as a characteristic that is specifically associated with either one. It seems more dose dependent to me, as I am more likely to develop it at high doses of either magic or meh.

One thing I found interesting about reading the Erowid MBDB vault, was that many of the users reported MORE intense nystagmus and jaw clenching with MBDB, but without the euphoria and feel good elements of MDMA. We may not be dealing with MBDB, but we may be dealing with something similar. I read that MDDA looks like MBDB to GCMS, so who knows really what we are up against.

IMO, that pill report is just talking about being fucked up, not really talking about any of the characteristic feelings of love, connection, or euphoria that MDMA used to bring about. I wish we could read through the old pill reports database, because people used to talk about all of that. 

Also - happy 20 year rolliversary to me today. Wish I had a proper way to celebrate. Although April 23 was the first day I took ecstasy, the pills I took on April 23 were bunk, so I did not actually roll until the second time I took ecstasy which was June 17.



*Traditional (magic) MDMA**Sub-par (meh) MDMA**Mydriasis (eye dilation)*YesNo*Enhanced tactile senses*YesNo*Enhanced auditory senses*YesNo*Enhanced aesthetic appreciation of music*YesNo*Feelings of euphoria*YesNo*Feelings of empathy*YesNo*Pro-social behaviors*YesNo*Energy*YesNo*Feeling sleepy*NoYes*Active desire to disengage from social interaction.*NoYes*Enhanced erotic activity/making out*YesNo*Feelings of love*YesNo*Desire to be still*NoYes*Jaw movement/clenching/grinding*YesYes*Profuse Sweating/Feeling Hot*YesNo*Feeling cold in warm environments*NoYes*Duration*4-6 hours1-3 hours*Comedown*Typically, gradualTypically, abrupt


----------



## indigoaura

I would like to add this as well, and @ThreePointCircle tell me if you agree:

On "magic" product, the physical side effects like jaw grinding and nystagmus are like icing on a cake. They add to an already full and complete experience. You feel AHMAZING and you LOVE everyone and now everyone is fluttering and that is even more amazing and makes you love them even more! 

On "meh" product it is like the physical side effects are running without any of the mental rush/joy/love etc. So, your head feels almost sober, or a negative extension of sober. You are thinking about something like why people get cancer and then your eyes start fluttering and it is just annoying, like, "why is this happening?"

On a recent meh experience I had, I was hanging with friends in a hotel and we were playing stuff on Spotify. When I would go to play a track, the nystagmus would kick in and I could not see well enough to select the right song. It was just something that was in my way and getting in between me and my objective. Irritating. 

Which brings me back around to a primary characteristic, for me, which is that a lot of things feel inconvenient or like an interruption on Meh-DMA. You're trying to talk to me? Stop. You want me to get up off the couch? No. I have to walk somewhere? Why? I'm starting to think maybe MehDMA needs its day to shine, by taking it alone with nothing to do and no one to talk to.


----------



## popsweat

looked up pillreport for iphone x q dance pill this time the gold/white one. Report looks magic to me.



> After taking a long break from MDMA/XTC consumption, i decided its time for a nice party again.
> 
> Bought a few of these beauty's and dropped with a friend on a techno party. Started with half.
> 
> The comeup was very quick. Hit me hard with warm shivers all over my body. Felt a overwhelming euphoria, jaw clenching and eye wiggles. Hard to focus at this point, so closed my eyes and njoyed the banging music
> 
> After the first hour i dropped the other half. This brought the whole experience to a next peak. I danced without speaking to anyone for about 1,5 hours.
> 
> At this point it was like 03:00 am and i felt the urge to talk, my friend got the same vibe. So we discussed deep thoughts and this was a very nice feeling of euphoria and took us to 04:30. Then we rolled up some good weed and smoked outside. The afterglow feeling of mdma was still very present in a good way.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> I would like to add this as well, and @ThreePointCircle tell me if you agree:
> 
> On "magic" product, the physical side effects like jaw grinding and nystagmus are like icing on a cake. They add to an already full and complete experience. You feel AHMAZING and you LOVE everyone and now everyone is fluttering and that is even more amazing and makes you love them even more!
> 
> On "meh" product it is like the physical side effects are running without any of the mental rush/joy/love etc. So, your head feels almost sober, or a negative extension of sober. You are thinking about something like why people get cancer and then your eyes start fluttering and it is just annoying, like, "why is this happening?"
> 
> On a recent meh experience I had, I was hanging with friends in a hotel and we were playing stuff on Spotify. When I would go to play a track, the nystagmus would kick in and I could not see well enough to select the right song. It was just something that was in my way and getting in between me and my objective. Irritating.
> 
> Which brings me back around to a primary characteristic, for me, which is that a lot of things feel inconvenient or like an interruption on Meh-DMA. You're trying to talk to me? Stop. You want me to get up off the couch? No. I have to walk somewhere? Why? I'm starting to think maybe MehDMA needs its day to shine, by taking it alone with nothing to do and no one to talk to.


Yes to all of this!  It's really is refreshing to hear you say these things.  There's subtleties in your description which resonate very well with my experience.

It's been a long time since I had the magic in the 90s (because of a break).  Back then, I didn't do it many times but I would describe the euphoria as having the intensity of being exploded and crushed at the same time, but pure pleasure.  Also had a strange sensation that I was really light and being lifted up by something.  The love drug, or hug drug, element to it plus the euphoria creates this context within which everything is amazing and engaging.  Meh can definitely lead to feelings of annoyance and irritation by contrast.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

popsweat said:


> looked up pillreport for iphone x q dance pill this time the gold/white one. Report looks magic to me.


Agreed, that does look more compelling.  I'm wondering if Q-Dance a) exist as an actual team rather than a brand that gets hijacked, and b) make their own stuff or simply press stuff they've sourced.  If the latter, the presses would be meh with the occasional random bit of magic.  I dunno, just a thought.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Your most likely burnt your receptors out a long time ago. It does happen to some people.


----------



## indigoaura

I find the Q-Dance debate to be a bit pointless here. As several posters more familiar with the brand have stated, there are identical copy-cat pills. I could go right now and try to get some yellow/green "Brazuca" pills, but I would have no way of knowing if they were REAL Q-dance or not. Apparently, even the small NL stamp can be copied. So, if I get them and they are "meh" it does not really answer anything about "real" Q-Dance pills, because I don't know if that is what I had or not. 

Also, I asked this before, but are all Q-Dance pills made at the same location and then shipped around the world, or do they have different pressers in different countries? What are they pressing? Is it all the same MDMA, or does the MDMA get made in each region? How many chemists are involved in the manufacture of the MDMA? Are some more skilled than others?

There are a lot of questions. It may very well be that some Q-Dance pills are reliably magic, but there have been just as many people in this thread saying they had Q-Dance pills that were meh. So, either there is variation between bi-layer pills presenting themselves as Q-Dance, or some people find them magical and some people find them meh but they are the exact same pills. But, we have no way of knowing whether people are eating the same Q-Dance pills or not. 

@popsweat That second report sounds like magic to me.


----------



## Negi

The pill report comments are not optimized for long expressive thoughts. Reddit is a place where that can happen, despite what some members seem to think of it. I searched for "first time" on the /r/MDMA subreddit and sorted by new to get some recent reports. Some excerpts follow (links mangled so bluelight doesn't keep embedding the entire reddit posts).



> About 1-1,5 hours after popping the first half of the pill I started to feel this deep comfort and my whole body felt heavy. I had a feeling that I was in a right place at the right time but I didn't really know what the hype was about. I was expecting so much more from this substance so I contacted the guy who sold me the drugs and he said I should redose. (I know I was stupid for not researching the drug before using it but I really had a deathwish) So I bombed the redose and oh boy it hit hard after just 15 minutes of the redose I started to feel this hype and bursts of happiness in my body. I was so happy so incredibly happy. I was also super curious I felt like a newborn baby basically observing everything and trying everything as a new thing. I also loved everything and everyone in that room I was in. Hugs felt like my heart would melt together with the person I was hugging with. I felt like I was truly myself for the first time since childhood. I didn't have any anxiety of others judging me. I felt like I looked good and I was having fun socializing with everyone. After like 2 hours the comedown started to happen. I just felt exhausted but grateful. I was just so happy that I got to experience that.


https://old.reddit[dot]com/r/MDMA/comments/gybssx/my_experience_with_mdma/



> How i would describe my experience?
> 
> Very good, i didn't feel any of my problems and i loved everyone and everything, i had some weed left which felt really good along the XTC and i remember my whole body was just so tight, my jaw was popping out of my face it felt like, even took a picture of it without me knowing and i was laughing so hard, i also stood under a roof window for about 2 hours with my favourite music, and the wind blowing onto me, i was sweating really hard though but it felt so good, i just kept gliding my hand over the wall and was staring into the sky because i swear it was moving, did that for 2 hours, sat on the couch and smoked another joint, and i enjoyed myself throughout the night, it made me realize that pot really should not be considered a drug , for real.


https://www.reddit[dot]com/r/MDMA/comments/hb0c8s/first_time_mdma_trip_report/



> After the vomiting I hit my normal stages of Molly
> 
> -Come up
> 
> -I LOVE YOU STAGE
> 
> -Kiss me through the phone stage
> 
> -Dance until no tomorrow stage
> 
> -Oh shit It wore off stage


https://www.reddit[dot]com/r/MDMA/comments/h89fye/first_rave_back/



> 9:40 pm: I dropped about 100mg to start, and as I was sitting nervously for it to kick in, it was as if all the lights in the room just grew as bright as our senses could imagine in an instant and my eyes started wiggling crazy, this passed after 20 seconds and once I realized it was kicking in I had the most warmest feeling of euphoria rush through me.
> 
> I was like literally groaning in pleasure while I cuddled this girl for a good two hours lmao. Anyways it literally felt so good that my uneducated friends who were scared to try it with me , now wanted in.
> 
> So of course I didn’t let them. You don’t just take drugs bc you see someone else doing it ykno? No urge to educate themselves or learn so I wouldn’t let them. Anyways back to it, I sat with a girl who I’m barely friends with, and had the most calm, collected, nice conversation with her. Words were so smooth and staring into someone’s eyes who’s insecure and won’t look into your eyes for more than a second can really tell you a lot about them.
> 
> 12 am: I took my booster dose as a wave of sadness came over me that the feeling was going away, which was a little above 50mg.
> 
> I sat so attentive , interested, no judgement, no worries, it was the most pure bliss I have ever felt in my whole entire life. I had a really rough shroom trip which caused me to quit smoking weed (needed to anyways) and it left me as a really anxious and overthinking person, most because I didn’t respect the mushroom during the trip. It taught me a lot though, but this MDMA just washed it all away. So amazing.


https://www.reddit[dot]com/r/MDMA/comments/h9smf0/first_mdma_experience/

So it's not just "everyone on reddit loves everything", if you read the reports most people are getting the desired effects.


----------



## indigoaura

I have no beef with reddit at all. I don't doubt there is plenty of good MDMA circling the world, and it is nice to read the reports of people who are clearly experiencing what they are supposed to experience.


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> Once again it seems pretty clear that the range of effects and perceived quality that people assign to "mehDMA" is so broad as to be largely useless. ThreePointCircle is finds that eye wiggles (nystagmus) to be a sign of "mehDMA" when others in the thread have identified it as a sign of real "magic MDMA" (that is almost completely absent in "mehDMA").


You are right but I count "eye wiggles" as a subjective effect unless observed by a camera or another person.  Strong trismus is probably the only objective effect, that can be reliably self-observed. Bowel movements maybe too, but not everyone has them.
That is why, I think it is important to compare the truly objective effects such as pupil dilation (by camera preferably) and various blood tests.
Even a simple blood test like fasting glucose level (pre & post-administration ratio), would yield some hard objective data.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I don't doubt there is plenty of good MDMA circling the world, and it is nice to read the reports of people who are clearly experiencing what they are supposed to experience.


And it is quite possible that since the PMK Glycidate got banned, contaminants such as the M-ALPHA-HMCA are not being generated anymore and the alternative precursors yield cleaner MDMA.
This is good if it happens more and more, but makes proving the contaminant theory harder.


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 I have a glucometer now. I will get my fasting glucose level when I wake up one day. Planning to check throughout the next roll as well.


----------



## nznity

indigoaura said:


> I find the Q-Dance debate to be a bit pointless here. As several posters more familiar with the brand have stated, there are identical copy-cat pills. I could go right now and try to get some yellow/green "Brazuca" pills, but I would have no way of knowing if they were REAL Q-dance or not. Apparently, even the small NL stamp can be copied. So, if I get them and they are "meh" it does not really answer anything about "real" Q-Dance pills, because I don't know if that is what I had or not.
> 
> Also, I asked this before, but are all Q-Dance pills made at the same location and then shipped around the world, or do they have different pressers in different countries? What are they pressing? Is it all the same MDMA, or does the MDMA get made in each region? How many chemists are involved in the manufacture of the MDMA? Are some more skilled than others?
> 
> There are a lot of questions. It may very well be that some Q-Dance pills are reliably magic, but there have been just as many people in this thread saying they had Q-Dance pills that were meh. So, either there is variation between bi-layer pills presenting themselves as Q-Dance, or some people find them magical and some people find them meh but they are the exact same pills. But, we have no way of knowing whether people are eating the same Q-Dance pills or not.
> 
> @popsweat That second report sounds like magic to me.


Back in 2015-2016 when the NL/qdance pills came out, that was when u would be certain those pills were bomb stuff. They were the first to make pills with cool designs.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> And it is quite possible that since the PMK Glycidate got banned, contaminants such as the M-ALPHA-HMCA are not being generated anymore and the alternative precursors yield cleaner MDMA.
> This is good if it happens more and more, but makes proving the contaminant theory harder.


Anyone who's smart has a stash of pmk glycidate to last year's.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Anyone who's smart has a stash of pmk glycidate to last year's.


Yes, but not everyone is smart and as these stashes are exhausetd the synths will have to shift to other precursors.
Because of these reserves, the change to other precursors is gradual after the glycidate ban...but it is there


----------



## draculic acid69

Yes eventually it'll change but it'll take years before it's exhausted.as for new precursors it'll be interesting to see what comes next.


----------



## mooka

little update on MAPS MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for treatment of PTSD:  https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-020-05548-2


----------



## user666

mooka said:


> little update on MAPS MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for treatment of PTSD:  https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-020-05548-2


Notice how 125mg is the highest dose they use ...and somehow it is sufficient to produce the desired effects.


----------



## G_Chem

Sorry guys it’s been a minute...

My bioassay with the 5-MAPB was inconclusive, it was too on the border of an experience with poor setting but even then I had moments of intense bliss, so idk.

I did however have an interesting experience this past weekend.

So I have this powder/sandy MDMA from years ago I’ve been saving.  I’ve been going back and forth in my head on whether I thought it was good or not.  My first time seeing it in action turned an entire small venue into a love pit so I had high hopes but it seemed to also be shorter acting.

This last weekend I finally tried it...  MDMA varies people, MDMA varies lol.

I’ve never had such a pro sexual experience in my life.  I can usually get it up and usually have sex.  This was like my entire body was in an orgasm for an hour straight, my dick was hard as a rock, and at moments I just lay there shaking breathing heavily in a state of bliss.

I didn’t even use a full dose, I just added 50mg in with my usual clean shard to see how it feels.

This stuff was a beige/brown sandy with a few little chocolate chunks.  Obviously not pure.


My experiences over the last few years as well as my readings seem to indicate that impurities are likely the cause of the increased intensity many of you seek.

Looking at the Hive and Vespiary many of the chemists say the customers prefer the impure product.

The problem arises that each synthetic route gives different impurities, and it seems the common PT hydrogenation route gives impurities which negate the experience.

Reading the Hive it appears hydrogenation has been giving lackluster product when impure since the 90’s.



The reason I haven’t been back in awhile is I’m beginning to become frustrated and disillusioned with the complexity of this issue.  I see this “meh” problem as multi faceted.

We have an obvious variation in MDMA batches.  We also have individual tolerances, and to top it off set/setting of each experience.

I’m beginning to believe that as an individuals tolerance increases, their preference for certain “types” of MDMA increases or decreases depending.

I think the “types” one prefers once said tolerance begins to occur depends on the type of product they started up/had the best experiences with, combined with the fact some batches are overall rated better in general.


I say all this because while my experience this past weekend is probably what some of you are seeking, and while it was amazing I still have a place in my heart for the other products.

This isn’t a black and white problem, and maybe I’m a lucky guy who’s been super lucky to only get a few batches of meh but my guess is that some of these batches that I find enjoyable, makes me wonder if some of ya’ll wouldn’t?...


To make matters even more confusing... I find that my tolerance to individual batches can raise with time causing me to like to switch around.  I’ve also seen folks preferences varied batch to batch.


In other words there’s very little rhyme or reason to who likes which batches, and it’s likely a combination of preference and tolerance.  I don’t think there’s any one batch we could definitively say is magic or meh, as everyone likes something different.

Ugh...  Over a decade researching this and still more questions than answers.

I can definitely say this...

Safrole to Isosaf, then Isosaf to MDP2P via peracid route.  Leuckart reduction.  Will without a doubt give the best chances at “magic.”
-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem Since you like other products...you can go ahead and send that sexy magic to me and my partner... :D



> I’ve never had such a pro sexual experience in my life. I can usually get it up and usually have sex. This was like my entire body was in an orgasm for an hour straight, my dick was hard as a rock, and at moments I just lay there shaking breathing heavily in a state of bliss.



This is what my partner and I experienced for years together. This was why we rolled. Although we both had individual histories with the drug prior to getting together, once we hooked up, ecstasy just became profoundly sexual in the best way possible. Interestingly, neither of us had ever had sex on ecstasy before we were together. It never went there with other people we were with. I had a few party cuddle puddle/making out type experiences, but nothing like what we found together. 

That's why it was so disappointing when the product changed. It did not just take away the ecstasy experience, it took away a bonding experience that we valued together. 

In any case... @G_Chem, I agree with everything you said. I think it is likely a multi-faceted issue. We already know that different synthesis routes produce different impurities. Those impurities could increase, decrease, or alter the experience. This could be occurring due to interaction in the liver or the brain. As a result, different batches vary. Then, due to individual genetic makeup, mutations, overall drug experience, tolerance, serotonin system restructuring etc, each batch hits each individual in a unique way. There are also the set/setting factors like when you last ate etc.

Despite all of this, and believing that it is a complicated issue with complicated answers, I do think that someone will eventually be able to identify certain impurities that seem to decrease the intensity of the experience. I believe the only path there is lab testing. Although, reading the recent research with the M-Alpha HMCA impurity, it became clear just how insanely complex that lab work would be. It is not easy to identify unknown compounds, even with scientists in the lab. 

I'm going to continue to test various products, take notes, and try to get lab data as often as possible. If the problem is not me, then I will happen upon the magic that I prefer eventually.


----------



## indigoaura

Curious @G_Chem... you said the batch you had recently "...was a beige/brown sandy with a few little chocolate chunks. Obviously not pure." Did it have an odor?


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> @G_Chem Since you like other products...you can go ahead and send that sexy magic to me and my partner... :D
> 
> 
> 
> This is what my partner and I experienced for years together. This was why we rolled. Although we both had individual histories with the drug prior to getting together, once we hooked up, ecstasy just became profoundly sexual in the best way possible. Interestingly, neither of us had ever had sex on ecstasy before we were together. It never went there with other people we were with. I had a few party cuddle puddle/making out type experiences, but nothing like what we found together.
> 
> That's why it was so disappointing when the product changed. It did not just take away the ecstasy experience, it took away a bonding experience that we valued together.
> 
> In any case... @G_Chem, I agree with everything you said. I think it is likely a multi-faceted issue. We already know that different synthesis routes produce different impurities. Those impurities could increase, decrease, or alter the experience. This could be occurring due to interaction in the liver or the brain. As a result, different batches vary. Then, due to individual genetic makeup, mutations, overall drug experience, tolerance, serotonin system restructuring etc, each batch hits each individual in a unique way. There are also the set/setting factors like when you last ate etc.
> 
> Despite all of this, and believing that it is a complicated issue with complicated answers, I do think that someone will eventually be able to identify certain impurities that seem to decrease the intensity of the experience. I believe the only path there is lab testing. Although, reading the recent research with the M-Alpha HMCA impurity, it became clear just how insanely complex that lab work would be. It is not easy to identify unknown compounds, even with scientists in the lab.
> 
> I'm going to continue to test various products, take notes, and try to get lab data as often as possible. If the problem is not me, then I will happen upon the magic that I prefer eventually.



Hahaha kicking myself for not hanging onto the whole lot now that I know what it is... I’ve been giving this shit away for years!  Good to know a lot of people got to experience this though. 

I agree completely this will some day be answered but I guess for me personally I need to take a break for a minute and don’t want ya’ll thinking I just abandoned the idea.  A little birdie told me they’ve got some things in the works that could at least better answer which routes give the proper product.  But it’ll be likely a few years before any further answers from that avenue of research.

@indigoaura Yes it did have a smell unlike any product I’ve ever had before.  Best described simply as “chemical or synthetic.”

This product was purchased through a supplier that always had amazing clear shards that smelled faintly of safrole.

One day I go to do my usual pickup and my guy almost shamefully pulls this product out.  He wasn’t impressrd with the look of it and I got it for about half the price with the assurance that this stuff was fire.

It reminded me of how molly/loose MDMA used to look, nearly all powder or small crystals with a few tiny rocks that were dark brown.  None of this large crystal stuff we see today.

Mecke showed a nice beautiful turquoise to Dark Blue/black instead of a muddy/quick green that some more impure product can do.  Which seemed to indicate that despite its look, maybe it was more pure than meets the eye.


To be fair I’ve never seen a crowd roll harder than the night I handed this shit out to get a feel for it.  I remember on the dot 40min later it felt like the entire place got “softer” everyone became kind and thoughtful simultaneously.  I literally timed it out and told my girl “here we go everyone’s going up.”

This was also the time a girl walked up to me and began talking to me telling me I was her soulmate after 3 words, the look of confusion on her face as I backpedaled and her friends pulled her away was both sad but also not something you see with normal every day MDMA.


This past weekend we did a home roll which usually aren’t quite as good for me as out in public.  I was very grateful to be inside my own residence when I was nearly laid out for an hour with a pants tent.

Once that intense peak subsided it was more like a normal roll but still overall more intense.


I don’t know what to think other than I’m yet flabbergasted at the wide range of possible effects MDMA can have.  I’d argue there’s not too many other synthetic drugs out there which vary as much as MDMA does.  There’s also a lot of different routes to said end product too which I’m sure effects things.

I’ll be testing this product out more and will report back, as well as keeping my eye out for product that looks like this in the future.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem Any chance 50 mg of this stuff could find its way to a lab? I feel pretty certain it will be MDMA only, but would be worth knowing if anything else showed up in a lab result. Let me know if you are willing.



> To be fair I’ve never seen a crowd roll harder than the night I handed this shit out to get a feel for it. I remember on the dot 40min later it felt like the entire place got “softer” everyone became kind and thoughtful simultaneously. I literally timed it out and told my girl “here we go everyone’s going up.”
> 
> This was also the time a girl walked up to me and began talking to me telling me I was her soulmate after 3 words, the look of confusion on her face as I backpedaled and her friends pulled her away was both sad but also not something you see with normal every day MDMA.



There used to always be a notable shift once everyone had started coming up. The vibe just changed. It was palpable. Your story about the girl reminds me of one time early on, my boyfriend at the time wanted to go to Walgreens to buy smokes and gum. We get to the checkout and he's all wide eyed and coming up, and he invites the checkout lady to come home with us.

Take note: this was a middle aged lady working the night shift at Walgreens. She had no particular party vibe about her. I was horrified, but he was all innocent. He just wanted this lady to come home with us. Fortunately for both of us, she laughed and said she'd been where we were before, and told us to have a safe night and go home without her. He was honestly devastated to leave her behind at the cash register.


----------



## majk13

I remember when I was 6 years old it was 1986, I went on vacation with my grandmother a few days away, there was a period of considerable rains and not far from where we lived there was a river that poured into the surrounding meadow. There was not much water, maybe 30 cm, but walking and bathing in clear water on the grass was an experience that I will remember for the rest of my life ... 

Real good mdma always made me feel like I was in this meadow ... 

I recently met a friend whom I haven't seen 20 years and he was a connoisseur of mdma, he knows many "people" claim that he has not come across magical mdma for over 10 years. 

Will we finally solve this puzzle?


----------



## indigoaura

majk13 said:


> I recently met a friend whom I haven't seen 20 years and he was a connoisseur of mdma, he knows many "people" claim that he has not come across magical mdma for over 10 years.



This sentence confuses me. Is he the one who says that he has not had magical MDMA in 10 years, or do other "people" say it? Why is "people" in quotes?

I agree about the childlike wonder. MDMA could definitely create that feeling over everyday experiences, like breathing.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> This sentence confuses me. Is he the one who says that he has not had magical MDMA in 10 years, or do other "people" say it? Why is "people" in quotes?



Yeh, the first part of the post kind of describes the magic that MDMA can evoke. But the remainder confused the shit out of me..


----------



## majk13

I can't go into the details of my friend but the point is that if he hasn't had access to magic mdma in 10 years, it means it wasn't anywhere to buy in my country.


----------



## vecktor

majk13 said:


> I can't go into the details of my friend but the point is that if he hasn't had access to magic mdma in 10 years, it means it wasn't anywhere to buy in my country.



I can't go into the details of my friend but the point is that if he hasn't had access to magic mdma in 10 years, it means it wasn't anywhere *for him *to buy in my country *that he knew of*

FIFY


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

G_Chem said:


> It reminded me of how molly/loose MDMA used to look, nearly all powder or small crystals with a few tiny rocks that were dark brown.  None of this large crystal stuff we see today.
> 
> Mecke showed a nice beautiful turquoise to Dark Blue/black instead of a muddy/quick green that some more impure product can do.  Which seemed to indicate that despite its look, maybe it was more pure than meets the eye.



In my experience color of the crystals doesn't indicate anything with MDMA/MDA. I've seen almost every color you can think of: brown/amber, clear/white, purple/nearly black, and lots of variations in between. It just varies from batch to batch like that even from the same source. I've seen mostly crystals unless it comes pressed in pills. All the crystals aren't huge but anything sandy I suspect was just crushed at some point down the line. When I've seen it freshly imported the bulk of the batches are large uniform crystals. I'm confidant most people importing it here receive it that way.


----------



## anon65535

Haven't been in this thread for a few years, but I am curious.

Have we figured out anything in the last few years?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

anon65535 said:


> Haven't been in this thread for a few years, but I am curious.
> 
> Have we figured out anything in the last few years?



More questions have been found than answers mate.


----------



## anon65535

Awesome. back in the 50s we were discussing the contaminants of PMK-Glycidate which were acrylamide and glycidic acid. Then Glub tested some euro batch and found 2,3 mdp2p glycidate with shitty meth.

I certainly haven't bought MDMA in a long while but you can see my cleaning of gross product back in the 50s. Did Glub continue to test batches?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

In the 50s? Just how fuckin old are you mate..?  :D


----------



## anon65535

Ha! I meant in the 50s pages on this thread.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

anon65535 said:


> Ha! I meant in the 50s pages on this thread.



Oops, my bad..


----------



## indigoaura

@anon65535 Glubra has not been able to post in awhile, unfortunately. He has missed out on a lot of the more recent developments, and we could really use his insight. We have discovered quite a bit of published research that may relate to the topic. We have established that different synthesis routes produce different byproducts, and some of those byproducts may block receptors and uptake of MDMA. We have just recently read an article that found a previously undocumented impurity, and that article theorized that impurities in PMK may be producing unwanted byproducts. You may find that article of interest here: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332

At this point, I am pretty convinced that much MDMA on the market has synthesis byproducts present, and that some of those byproducts are muting the experience of the roll, either in the brain or somehow in the liver. I don't think all meh is exactly the same, or that all magic is exactly the same.


----------



## anon65535

That's interesting. What about glycidic acid and acrylamide?


----------



## user666

After PMK Glycidate is converted to PMK, something must happen to the Glycidate part. If it is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it is quite possible that this remainder is converted to toxic stuff like Acrylamide.
Also, the conversion of PMK Glycidate to PMK does not have to be 100% efficient, which would leave PMK Glycidate in the mixture.  If the unreacted precursor is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it can get amidated and its epoxy ring can be opened by subsequent reaction with Methylamine, leaving M-ALPHA-HMCA as a contaminant.

So IMO the best working theory now is that "Meh MDMA" = MDMA + toxic stuff like Acrylamide (which causes LTC) + muting agents such as the M-ALPHA-HMCA or other* Hydroxy containing compund*s and dimer-like molecules (which block the human monoamine trasporters).

These contaminants must be potent in very small amounts to avoid detection by GC/MS ...or undergo pyrolytic disproprtionation and masquarade as MDMA (e.g. like some of these *Hydroxy compounds* )


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @anon65535 Glubra has not been able to post in awhile, unfortunately. He has missed out on a lot of the more recent developments, and we could really use his insight. We have discovered quite a bit of published research that may relate to the topic. We have established that different synthesis routes produce different byproducts, and some of those byproducts may block receptors and uptake of MDMA. We have just recently read an article that found a previously undocumented impurity, and that article theorized that impurities in PMK may be producing unwanted byproducts. You may find that article of interest here: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332
> 
> At this point, I am pretty convinced that much MDMA on the market has synthesis byproducts present, and that some of those byproducts are muting the experience of the roll, either in the brain or somehow in the liver. I don't think all meh is exactly the same, or that all magic is exactly the same.


Again for the tenth time I'll say it we need to analyse meh to figure out the synthesis route used.is it one or many different methods? until this is done no cause can be determined.


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> After PMK Glycidate is converted to PMK, something must happen to the Glycidate part. If it is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it is quite possible that this remainder is converted to toxic stuff like Acrylamide.
> However, the conversion of PMK Glycidate to PMK does not have to be 100% efficient, which would leave PMK Glycidate in the mixture, and that can get amidated and its epoxy ring can be opened by subsequent reaction with Methylamine, leaving M-ALPHA-HMCA as a contaminant.
> 
> So IMO the best working theory now is that Meh MDMA = MDMA + toxic stuff like Acrylamide (which causes LTC) + muting agents such as the M-ALPHA-HMCA or other Hydroxy containg compunds and dimer-like molecules (which block the noradrenergic and serotonergic receptors).
> 
> These contaminant must be potent in very small amounts to avoid detection by GCMS ...or undergo pyrolytic disproprtionation and masquarade as MDMA (e.g. like these dimer-like byproducs)


It seems like failure to purify the ketone made from pmkglycidate decomposition is a culprit or at least a major problem with modern mdma.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @anon65535 Glubra has not been able to post in awhile, unfortunately. He has missed out on a lot of the more recent developments, and we could really use his insight. We have discovered quite a bit of published research that may relate to the topic. We have established that different synthesis routes produce different byproducts, and some of those byproducts may block receptors and uptake of MDMA. We have just recently read an article that found a previously undocumented impurity, and that article theorized that impurities in PMK may be producing unwanted byproducts. You may find that article of interest here: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332
> 
> At this point, I am pretty convinced that much MDMA on the market has synthesis byproducts present, and that some of those byproducts are muting the experience of the roll, either in the brain or somehow in the liver. I don't think all meh is exactly the same, or that all magic is exactly the same.


Did those samples you sent off come back with any route specific info on how they were made? Or any info on trace impurities?


----------



## indigoaura

> Did those samples you sent off come back with any route specific info on how they were made? Or any info on trace impurities?



I am supposed to eventually get access to additional data from the analysis. However, that has not occurred yet. As soon as I have additional data for you to review, I will post it. 

I was told that this sample https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8547 was made starting with safrole. @vash445 also had a sample that had started as safrole and was meh. 

If impurities in PMK can cause unwanted byproducts, wouldn't the same be true of impurities in safrole? Safrole can be derived from so many sources. If a small chemist is obtaining safrole illicitly from China or Brazil or wherever, isn't it possible they are getting dirty safrole?


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> I am supposed to eventually get access to additional data from the analysis. However, that has not occurred yet. As soon as I have additional data for you to review, I will post it.
> 
> I was told that this sample https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8547 was made starting with safrole. @vash445 also had a sample that had started as safrole and was meh.
> 
> If impurities in PMK can cause unwanted byproducts, wouldn't the same be true of impurities in safrole? Safrole can be derived from so many sources. If a small chemist is obtaining safrole illicitly from China or Brazil or wherever, isn't it possible they are getting dirty safrole?



Yup I think my other thread i went over a bit how different safrole sources can alter the MDMA if not distilled prior to use.  I know small amount of PMMA can result but other things could occur too.

That result is interesting that they found low amounts of MDA and MBDB, I can understand the MDA but can someone explain how the MBDB showed up?

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> After PMK Glycidate is converted to PMK, something must happen to the Glycidate part. If it is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it is quite possible that this remainder is converted to toxic stuff like Acrylamide.
> Also, the conversion of PMK Glycidate to PMK does not have to be 100% efficient, which would leave PMK Glycidate in the mixture.  If the unreacted precursor is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it can get amidated and its epoxy ring can be opened by subsequent reaction with Methylamine, leaving M-ALPHA-HMCA as a contaminant.
> 
> So IMO the best working theory now is that "Meh MDMA" = MDMA + toxic stuff like Acrylamide (which causes LTC) + muting agents such as the M-ALPHA-HMCA or other* Hydroxy containing compund*s and dimer-like molecules (which block the human monoamine trasporters).
> 
> These contaminants must be potent in very small amounts to avoid detection by GC/MS ...or undergo pyrolytic disproprtionation and masquarade as MDMA (e.g. like some of these *Hydroxy compounds* )



While searching the Hive lately, all the evidence of lackluster product seems to point towards dimers.  Are dimers more likely to occur via PT hydrogenation though,

-GC


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> If impurities in PMK can cause unwanted byproducts, wouldn't the same be true of impurities in safrole?


Yes, but the PMK impurities derived from dirty Safrole will be different from PMK impurities derived from incompletely converted PMK Glycidate *or* failure to remove the Glycidate moiety after the conversion.
Obviously, different set of impurities will have different effects. It is quite possible, that the set of impurites from one precursor is worse than from the other.

In case of PMK derived from *pure* PMK Glycidate, we can have two sources of MDMA impurities:
a) from the unconverted precursor itself
b) from the Glycidate moiety remaining after its succesful conversion to PMK.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> While searching the Hive lately, all the evidence of lackluster product seems to point towards dimers.  Are dimers more likely to occur via PT hydrogenation though ?


To answer that, I would need to fully understand how Pt hydrogenation alters precursors and contaminants present in the reaction.  I don't.
However, I can shine some light on the dimers, as I expect them to fluoresce under UV or strongly absorb UV or blue light (like dibenzylacetone does).  MDMA does not do that.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> I am supposed to eventually get access to additional data from the analysis. However, that has not occurred yet. As soon as I have additional data for you to review, I will post it.
> 
> I was told that this sample https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8547 was made starting with safrole. @vash445 also had a sample that had started as safrole and was meh.
> 
> If impurities in PMK can cause unwanted byproducts, wouldn't the same be true of impurities in safrole? Safrole can be derived from so many sources. If a small chemist is obtaining safrole illicitly from China or Brazil or wherever, isn't it possible they are getting dirty safrole?


Possible but meh wasn't a problem until recently and safrole has always been purified before making it into the ketone so unless someone has just started leaving out crucial purification steps it shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> I can understand the MDA but can someone explain how the MBDB showed up?


I only have a far-out explanation.

Namely, their automatic spectra correlation is so imprecise, that they confused M-ALPHA for MBDB.






A manual review of the spectrum might have yielded a more precise result.

*Draculic acid69**'s *explanation below is more plausible*.*


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Yup I think my other thread i went over a bit how different safrole sources can alter the MDMA if not distilled prior to use.  I know small amount of PMMA can result but other things could occur too.
> 
> That result is interesting that they found low amounts of MDA and MBDB, I can understand the MDA but can someone explain how the MBDB showed up?
> 
> -GC


A bunch of mehmdma was mixed with a small amount of mbdb from a different batch


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Yes, but the PMK impurities derived from dirty Safrole will be different from PMK impurities derived from incompletely converted PMK Glycidate *or* failure to remove the Glycidate moiety after the conversion.
> Obviously, different set of impurities will have different effects. It is quite possible, that the set of impurites from one precursor is worse than from the other.
> 
> In case of PMK derived from *pure* PMK Glycidate, we can have two sources of MDMA impurities:
> a) from the unconverted precursor itself
> b) from the Glycidate moiety remaining after its succesful conversion to PMK.


Which is why we need to find out if meh is made with one or more methods


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> Possible but meh wasn't a problem until recently and safrole has always been purified before making it into the ketone so unless someone has just started leaving out crucial purification steps it shouldn't be an issue.


I agree. Also I think that, the natural Safrole in Sassafras oil is so pungent and looks so dark and dirty that it motivates even the amateur chemist to purify it.

On the other hand, we have this mystery description of this new and beautiful one-pot synth form PMK Glycidate that does not even mention any purification.

_



			Quote from: https://mixmag.net/feature/we-went-undercover-in-a-chinese-mdma-factory

Our lab switched [in 2010] to ethyl PMK-glycidate as a precursor. This was unwatched, and we were able to source it from China at a very competitive price,” he said.

He revealed the details of his synthesis to me, and I verified the feasibility of the method with an equally expert but legitimate chemist. It wasn’t just feasible, he told me, it was beautiful.
“It achieves complex molecular changes in a single concerted step, almost like watching a solar system of planets align.  "Elegant" is a good word for it, too.  It’s the sort of thing that anyone (any organic chemist) could have come up with once it’s explained to you, but really, the first person to come up with this [method] had quite a stroke of inspiration
		
Click to expand...

_
PMK Glycidate looks white and clean like Philadelphia cheese and its sellers often advertise it as "pure".  That does not exacly scream "purify me!" like the dark stinky Sassafras oil.


----------



## G_Chem

I’d like to also mention we shouldn’t really trust Vash’s word regarding “meh” safrole product.  It could have happened but he was so untrustworthy that unfortunately we should probably throw the baby out with the bath water in this situation.  We just don’t know what he did to that baby, ya know?

It sucks, and I do believe it’s possible to produce meh product from safrole, but yea it is what is.

In regards to the MBDB, my thoughts actually more aim towards improper analysis.  The chances of it being synthesized much these days are lower than a lab screw up IMO.

So dimers fluoresce and true MDMA don’t huh? Time to pull out the black light?

-GC


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> So dimers fluoresce and true MDMA don’t huh?


...or absorb UV like *Dibenzylideneacetone* (which is used in sun screens. btw).
It is also possible that this response extends to longer wavelengths (e.g. blue light) because the Ethylbenzodioxole "wings" of these dimers are 21% more massive than the Propenylbenzene "wings" of Dibenzylideneacetone ...so they "flap" slower (...OTOH they are shorter and stiffer, which speeds up the vibration).


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> ...or absorb UV like *Dibenzylideneacetone* (which is used in sun screens. btw).
> It is also possible that this response extends to longer wavelengths (e.g. blue light) because the Ethylbenzodioxole "wings" of these dimers are 21% more massive than the Propenylbenzene "wings" of Dibenzylideneacetone ...so they "flap" slower (...OTOH they are shorter).


One would think that simple fractional distillation will seperate the higher boiling dimers from the mdma.if there in the product it's probably because simple purification process are being left out


----------



## vecktor

user666 said:


> ...or absorb UV like Dibenzylideneacetone .
> It is also possible that this response extends to longer wavelengths (e.g. blue light) because the "wings" of the benzodioxole dimers are more massive and vibrate slower than Dibenzylideneacetone (they are shorther, though).



The size of the wings are irrelevant, as is vibration of the structures, things fluoresce when electrons absorb light then return to ground state losing excess energy as light. Electrons are small, so they can absorb and be pumped only by short wavelength they then return to ground state emitting light after a delay, almost always of a longer wavelength which is called fluorescence. The band gap is high energy which needs high energy photons, quantum physics and all.

Dibenzylidene acetone has multiple double bonds that are conjugated together so instead of absorbing at 250nm it absorbs at longer wavelengths (blue), making it yellow. this down shift of absorbance due to conjugation is why a bunch of double bonds conjugated together makes carrots orange, by absorbing blue instead of UV.

MDMA and most benzodioxoles are fluorescent absorbing short UV and emitting longer UV, I can't remember the exact frequencies somewhere around 270nm, however this is not super useful for humans who can't see it, but birds and probably deer can see it. The dimers will absorb UV more strongly molecule for molecule because they have more stuff to absorb UV. But the blacklight idea is totally unproven and highly unlikely to work because of the physics.

Vibration and bending of big things like benzene rings happens in the mid and near IR spectrum a long way in energy and wavelength from normal fluorescence which is visible and UV.



> In case of PMK derived from *pure* PMK Glycidate, we can have two sources of MDMA impurities:
> a) from the unconverted precursor itself
> b) from the Glycidate moiety remaining after its successful conversion to PMK.



can you write that in a way that I can understand what you are actually trying to say? because I really don't understand the points.

it doesn't matter if the PMK glycidate is pure so long as the PMK made from it is pure,
It doesn't matter if the PMK is impure so long as the MDMA made from it is pure.
There is not a glycidate moety (I guess you mean epoxy carboxylate)  that remains after successful conversion to PMK, by definition. The epoxy ring opens, the carboxylic acid leaves as water and CO2 leaving PMK. The ethanol or methanol has already been chopped of the ester.

The acrylamide hypothesis seems bullshit, there is no conceivable chemistry that can rip PMK glycidate apart in a way that makes acrylamide and even if it could the amount of acrylamide that could be present is tiny probably roughly the same as a BBQ meat or French Fries where it comes from over heating cooking oils.

I have a strong suspicion where the problem lies and that GC-MS of known Meh and Magic will see the impurities by comparing the two, so we wait for the data.

no largescale commercial producer is likely to run high vacuum fractional distillation of MDMA, period.


----------



## user666

vecktor said:


> The size of the wings are irrelevant, as is vibration of the structures,
> Vibration and bending of big things like benzene rings happens in the mid and near IR spectrum


OK, so I stand corrected on the wavelength of this vibration.



vecktor said:


> things fluoresce when electrons absorb light then return to ground state losing excess energy as light. Electrons are small, so they can absorb and be pumped only by short wavelength they then return to ground state emitting light after a delay, almost always of a longer wavelength which is called fluorescence.


Yes, fluorescence is a wavelength conversion process. What about absorption at UV wavelengths ?



vecktor said:


> Can you write that in a way that I can understand what you are actually trying to say? because I really don't understand the points.


I'll try. Remember, I am not a Pro like you. I am still learning, which is not made any easier by your insufficiently frequent admonishments.
a) The unconverted PMK Glycidate (even if pure) is not removed and gets amidated and its epoxide ring becomes opened with subsequent reaction with Methylamine .
b) The epoxide carboxylate becomes disconnected from PMK but it remains in the mixture with PMK.  It remains intact (its epoxide ring doesn't get opened until much later in the synth, or not at all). The carboxylate group does not leave but remains attached to the epoxide, and much much later in the synth it gets converted to something nasty, e.g. by the amination process.



vecktor said:


> I have a strong suspicion where the problem lies and that GC-MS of known Meh and Magic will see the impurities by comparing the two, so we wait for the data.


Do you have access to both Meh and Magic that have been tested on virgin subjects ?


----------



## vecktor

user666 said:


> OK, so I stand corrected on the wavelength of this vibration.
> 
> 
> Yes, fluorescence is a wavelength conversion process. What about absorption at UV wavelengths ?


UV is just short wavelength light, the shorter the wavelength, the higher the frequency and the higher the energy of each photon. In quantum physics photons are essentially quantized energy packets, 
Bouncing electrons into higher energy levels is also quantized and there are no half stages or intermediate units in the absorbtion energy levels, like cent coins or magic beans. The light energy has to match the excitation energy needed to be absorbed. Any light that has insufficient energy (long wavelength) or if the light has too much energy (short wavelength) cannot do it, no matter how intense that light, it simply cannot bounce the electron into a higher energy state. This is a very important concept to understand.

If the light does have the correct energy and is absorbed then you get an excited electron which then falls back to ground state one way or another. If there is a fluorescent pathway then the light gets absorbed and re-radiated at lower frequencies. purple blue green for example. If there is not a fluorescent pathway or other pathways predominate then the absorbed light energy either breaks bonds or is lost ultimately as heat without emitting light. Of course if the light is not absorbed then the material is transparent.
Benzene rings in general absorb UV, because effectively they are rings of conjugated double bonds.




> I'll try. Remember, I am not a Pro like you. I am still learning, which is not made any easier by your insufficiently frequent admonishments.
> a) the unconverted PMK Glycidate (even if pure) is not removed and gets amidated and its epoxide ring becomes opened with subsequent reaction with Methylamine .
> b) The epoxide carboxylate becomes disconnected from PMK but it remains in the mixture with PMK.  It remains intact (its epoxide ring doesn't get opened until much later in the synth, or not at all). The carboxylate group does not leave but remains attached to the epoxide, and much much later in the synth it gets converted to something nasty, e.g. by the amination process.



I am not admonishing you at all but the idea is that people communicate their thoughts clearly. 

I think the misunderstanding is that you think think PMK glycidate is a theoretical construct of PMK and glycidate?

it isn't it, is a completely different molecule which can rearrange to give PMK, which is why it is called PMK glycidate or PMK glycidic ester or more correctly,
Ethyl 3‐(1,3‐benzodioxol‐5‐yl)‐2‐methyloxirane‐2‐carboxylate or
Ethyl 3-(3',4'-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-methyloxirane carboxylate.

The rearrangement of this molecule to PMK is in several steps, 
1 the cleavage of the alcohol from the ester (acid or base catalysed) the alcohol is methanol or ethanol depending on whether the PMK glycidate is ethyl PMK glycidate or methyl PMK glycidate
2 The usually acid catalyzed opening of the epoxy ring and a cascade of reactions that then results in the carboxylic acid being lost as CO2 and the rearrangement of what is left to give PMK.



> Do you have access to bot Meh and Magic that have been tested on virgin subjects ?



Meh Magic could be sourced, but won't be. I don't understand the importance of this idea about virgin subjects, (MDMA naive is a better term), but subjective data from drug naive, is no more useful than an experienced user. 
To be absolutely clear I am not doing this research myself and am simply not interested in getting samples Meh Magic or otherwise,  In case you missed it MDMA is schedule 1 drug requiring a ton of expensive and tedious licenses to work with. Earths' Drug Testing crew have the paperwork eventually they will get around to doing it, or give out the data for people to crowd source analyze. (they may have some issues though with the DEA doing this)

Doing free quality control for a bunch of clandestine manufacturers who will always just produce the minimum quality cheapest crap for users, where the majority of users simply don't care, appreciate or respect the material, is not really useful.


----------



## No_Comment

indigoaura said:


> @PlayHard I don't think anyone can tell anything from photos really, as there is a pretty wide variation in reports of the appearance of magic/meh. However, that color and those rounded edges to the crystal look like meh product I have had. I know @G_Chem has speculated here before that a more jagged crystal edge may possibly indicate a better product. Hope that your experience is magic though!



Regarding jagged edges... I doubt this is true because of you wash and recrystallise mdma many times over you end up with rhombus shaped crystals with completely straight edges.


----------



## anon65535

Can confirm that I washed and recrystallized MDMA in 0 ppm water and ended up with rhombus shaped crystals. Was definitely a hydrated state at that point, but I'm not going to melt it to find out which one.

Some of the best MDMA I had was via the methylamine route, which had that fishy smell. Sad I got rid of it because that stuff was really good. I can't say that the rest of the stuff I have is the "meh MDMA" that you guys talk about because the last time I used it I was pretty happy with the effects but I can distinctly remember a slight sedative effect.  There was still that "window opening" effect once it kicks in and on an empty stomach, comeup was 30-40m. Can't say that sedative effect was more pronounced than other stuff I had, but I dunno. I haven't done MDMA in probably a year. 

I have a few different samples, happy to offer up some pictures. I also have a black light if that helps. Got some washed stuff, got some unwashed stuff, got some black crystal canadian stuff and got the left shit after the wash that's dark brown. Got some clear MDA as well.

I feel like the only way to truly purify MDMA would be to do an A/B extraction of the salt to yield the freebase and then distill it. Unfortunately, that's above my skill and comfort level. Not something I would be interested in doing. Involves some watched chemicals and glassware. You would need to first extract the freebase, then get it up to the boiling point, collect just the freebase vapor and then recrystallize with DCM. However this beyond the scope of this forum and would best be discussed on the hive.

This is all assuming that whatever the potential contaminant is, does not have the same or close to the same boiling point as the 3,4-MDMA. Because if it does, you're pretty much fucked no matter what you do.


----------



## G_Chem

No_Comment said:


> Regarding jagged edges... I doubt this is true because of you wash and recrystallise mdma many times over you end up with rhombus shaped crystals with completely straight edges.



This is true, but we aren’t talking about multiple times re-x’ed product.  We are talking about the 99% of product found on the street which is often fused HCl.

That said, if it’s really pure you’ll see some nice crystal formation here and there amongst the fused pile, hence why I tell people to still look for those signs of proper formation.  (Which in the case of anhydrous as you said is orthorhombic, more parallelogram/diamond shaped when hydrated.  Both formations can be present in the same batch.)

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I apologize for the delay in getting my reports. My region is having ongoing COVID-19 issues. We are now heading towards a huge peak (ICU beds full, etc). It took me awhile to get the two Meh samples sent in, and then I was told there would be a delay in getting the reports due to the lab being overwhelmed with work.

International Energy Control has also offered to re-examine the sample I sent them before and provide reports. However, in order for me to send that sample, I have to physically go inside a post office, stand in line, and buy international postage. With the COVID situation what it is in Houston right now, I am just not willing to do that. 

I have very low amounts of product to send in, and no ability to obtain more of sample 1. This is what I have:

*Meh Sample 1*: Analyzed by Drugs Data to be MDMA, MBDB, and MDA (This is the product that I had access to for a very lengthy period from 2006 onward. I have witnessed many people react to it, including MDMA naive, inexperienced, and experienced users). Consistently produces no eye dilation and a sedated effect. I was told that this sample was produced starting from safrole and washed with acetone. No smell. White powder. Interestingly, when I sent this sample in before (back in 2007) it did not show MBDB and showed 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol.
*
Meh Sample 2*: Analyzed by Drugs Data to be MDMA and MDA. I only consumed this product once, because the side effects were very undesirable. I have witnessed several people use this product, including MDMA naive and experienced users. Does not produce eye dilation. Less sedated than sample 1, but not energetic either. Anti-social. Produces a lot of jaw clenching, but it feels more noticeable and annoying than with magic MDMA. Was told this product originated in Mexico. Has a safrole smell. Tan powder.
*
Meh Sample 3*: Analyzed by International Energy Control to be 80% MDMA. The least meh out of the three, some minimal traces of a typical MDMA experience. Does produce eye dilation with 200 mg +. Anti-social and sedated. (There was another user in this thread, @opposable-thumbs,  who also tried this sample and concurred with everything I noted. He and his wife both tried it and found it lacking). Was told that this sample was made with safrole, washed with acetone, and re-crystalized. White powder, minimal odor.

All of these samples lack euphoria/love/pro-social/tactile enhancement/music enhancement. This is noted by more users than just me.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> I apologize for the delay in getting my reports. My region is having ongoing COVID-19 issues. We are now heading towards a huge peak (ICU beds full, etc). It took me awhile to get the two Meh samples sent in, and then I was told there would be a delay in getting the reports due to the lab being overwhelmed with work.
> 
> International Energy Control has also offered to re-examine the sample I sent them before and provide reports. However, in order for me to send that sample, I have to physically go inside a post office, stand in line, and buy international postage. With the COVID situation what it is in Houston right now, I am just not willing to do that.
> 
> I have very low amounts of product to send in, and no ability to obtain more of sample 1. This is what I have:
> 
> *Meh Sample 1*: Analyzed by Drugs Data to be MDMA, MBDB, and MDA (This is the product that I had access to for a very lengthy period from 2006 onward. I have witnessed many people react to it, including MDMA naive, inexperienced, and experienced users). Consistently produces no eye dilation and a sedated effect. I was told that this sample was produced starting from safrole and washed with acetone. No smell. White powder. Interestingly, when I sent this sample in before (back in 2007) it did not show MBDB and showed 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol.
> 
> *Meh Sample 2*: Analyzed by Drugs Data to be MDMA and MDA. I only consumed this product once, because the side effects were very undesirable. I have witnessed several people use this product, including MDMA naive and experienced users. Does not produce eye dilation. Less sedated than sample 1, but not energetic either. Anti-social. Produces a lot of jaw clenching, but it feels more noticeable and annoying than with magic MDMA. Was told this product originated in Mexico. Has a safrole smell. Tan powder.
> 
> *Meh Sample 3*: Analyzed by International Energy Control to be 80% MDMA. The least meh out of the three, some minimal traces of a typical MDMA experience. Does produce eye dilation with 200 mg +. Anti-social and sedated. (There was another user in this thread, @opposable-thumbs,  who also tried this sample and concurred with everything I noted. He and his wife both tried it and found it lacking). Was told that this sample was made with safrole, washed with acetone, and re-crystalized. White powder, minimal odor.
> 
> All of these samples lack euphoria/love/pro-social/tactile enhancement/music enhancement. This is noted by more users than just me.



So is Sample 1 really the same Sample from years back or just looks similar from the same connect? Just out of curiosity.

Completely understand the fear of going out, so is it really getting that bad again out by you? Fuck.. Are they shutting down or pushing forward? Have you guys really been hit hard yet or no? Sorry for the questions.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> So is Sample 1 really the same Sample from years back or just looks similar from the same connect? Just out of curiosity.
> 
> Completely understand the fear of going out, so is it really getting that bad again out by you? Fuck.. Are they shutting down or pushing forward? Have you guys really been hit hard yet or no? Sorry for the questions.
> 
> -GC



So, the sample from 2007 and the sample I just sent in are from the same provider. After I sent in the sample in 2007, I showed the provider the result. At that time, he decided to implement multiple acetone washes to try to provide a cleaner product. After that, it was a whiter powder, but it had been a brown powder before. Are they the exact same batch? No. they are different batches from the same chemist.

As for how bad it is here...








						CHARTS: Track the number of Houston-area coronavirus cases, recoveries and deaths each day
					

More than 212,000 cases of coronavirus have been reported in the Greater Houston area since the virus first arrived in the region in early March.




					www.click2houston.com
				




We went from under 300 new cases per day to 2000 cases per day. Don't let that last number on the chart fool you, it is just the Sunday low number for the week. Sunday's always have low counts. We have an alert system in place and we are on red alert. This is worse than it has ever been here.


----------



## opposable-thumbs

indigoaura said:


> I apologize for the delay in getting my reports. My region is having ongoing COVID-19 issues. We are now heading towards a huge peak (ICU beds full, etc). It took me awhile to get the two Meh samples sent in, and then I was told there would be a delay in getting the reports due to the lab being overwhelmed with work.
> 
> International Energy Control has also offered to re-examine the sample I sent them before and provide reports. However, in order for me to send that sample, I have to physically go inside a post office, stand in line, and buy international postage. With the COVID situation what it is in Houston right now, I am just not willing to do that.
> 
> I have very low amounts of product to send in, and no ability to obtain more of sample 1. This is what I have:
> 
> *Meh Sample 1*: Analyzed by Drugs Data to be MDMA, MBDB, and MDA (This is the product that I had access to for a very lengthy period from 2006 onward. I have witnessed many people react to it, including MDMA naive, inexperienced, and experienced users). Consistently produces no eye dilation and a sedated effect. I was told that this sample was produced starting from safrole and washed with acetone. No smell. White powder. Interestingly, when I sent this sample in before (back in 2007) it did not show MBDB and showed 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanol.
> 
> *Meh Sample 2*: Analyzed by Drugs Data to be MDMA and MDA. I only consumed this product once, because the side effects were very undesirable. I have witnessed several people use this product, including MDMA naive and experienced users. Does not produce eye dilation. Less sedated than sample 1, but not energetic either. Anti-social. Produces a lot of jaw clenching, but it feels more noticeable and annoying than with magic MDMA. Was told this product originated in Mexico. Has a safrole smell. Tan powder.
> 
> *Meh Sample 3*: Analyzed by International Energy Control to be 80% MDMA. The least meh out of the three, some minimal traces of a typical MDMA experience. Does produce eye dilation with 200 mg +. Anti-social and sedated. (There was another user in this thread, @opposable-thumbs,  who also tried this sample and concurred with everything I noted. He and his wife both tried it and found it lacking). Was told that this sample was made with safrole, washed with acetone, and re-crystalized. White powder, minimal odor.
> 
> All of these samples lack euphoria/love/pro-social/tactile enhancement/music enhancement. This is noted by more users than just me.



Yeah, Meh Sample 3 definitely left something to be desired.

On magic my wife turns into a sexual super freak. On that batch she basically just wanted to sit in my lap, make out and talk about having babies.


----------



## indigoaura

Maybe we need three categories. Magic MDMA, Meh-DMA, and Sexual-super-freak MDMA. 

But, yeah, it is just a totally different vibe. A friend of mine described the old magic MDMA as one prolonged orgasm, and that was my experience too. The meh-DMA just does not have that quality. And while I've never found babies particularly appealing, the meh stuff does just create a lazy vibe where you can't be bothered to do much of anything.


----------



## RyybsNarcs

Consumed one of those red-yellow Pirelli's about two weeks ago. Initial dose was about 3/5 of a pill and about a hour later took the rest, so about 170mg initial dose and 110mg redose (if we can trust the lab tests I saw on internet) which is a pretty high dose. I'm not very experienced with MDMA and have never felt confirmed MagicMDMA, but I have to say that it didn't feel very intense at any point. Some euphoria and empathy but no tactile enhancement or music appreciation. Duration was about 3 hours for the MDMA, took about 20mg of 2C-B at about 2 hours mark, and felt sober at 4 hours, with some comedown. 

I'd say it is meh, even though it was my best roll so far. Duration was so short, and it even killed the 2C-B. I took about 100ug of LSD a day before this roll, so of course it might have something to do with 2C-B. I had six months break from MDMA before this roll, and never abused it so it should not be the problem.


----------



## SlowandFastandSlow

RyybsNarcs said:


> Consumed one of those red-yellow Pirelli's about two weeks ago. Initial dose was about 3/5 of a pill and about a hour later took the rest, so about 170mg initial dose and 110mg redose (if we can trust the lab tests I saw on internet) which is a pretty high dose. I'm not very experienced with MDMA and have never felt confirmed MagicMDMA, but I have to say that it didn't feel very intense at any point. Some euphoria and empathy but no tactile enhancement or music appreciation. Duration was about 3 hours for the MDMA, took about 20mg of 2C-B at about 2 hours mark, and felt sober at 4 hours, with some comedown.
> 
> I'd say it is meh, even though it was my best roll so far. Duration was so short, and it even killed the 2C-B. I took about 100ug of LSD a day before this roll, so of course it might have something to do with 2C-B. I had six months break from MDMA before this roll, and never abused it so it should not be the problem.



The lack of music appreciation is a dead giveaway, proper stuff could have me skanking to Mozart .

This conductor is going the fuck innnnnn!


----------



## Kvitamine

I already apogalize for my bad english, but here is some background story. I have tried MDMA 5 times in 2 years before this roll with doses 100mg-200mg so I havent abused it. I've had 1 great and 1ok and 3 meh experiences before this and never had confirmed "Magic mdma"  but I am very interested about this thread and want to tell my experience with those red-yellow pirelli's. I consumed those pills with ryybsnarcs and few other friends. I took little bit over half pill for initial dose and rest after 1.5hour mark. Comeup was really, really smooth, everything was so calm, peaceful and I felt so clean for all the time, euphoria, music appreciation, music felt and sound so wonderful, sharp and alive. Tactile enchantment and empathy, i never felt so much empathy from previous rolls, it was so real, so natural empathy and love. It felt like I was in  some kind of love story for a whole roll. When I held hands with my friend, it felt like we had some kind of spiritual bond. everything felt incredible.(vicks inhalers smell so wonderfull) I literally was rolling my eyes back of my skull for whole peak :D  I would say that it was magical experience and i want to quote shulgin "i am complete" .  But why would I have so great experience from same pills that ryybsnarcs had? I really cant even imagine how roll would be any better than this was. 2 days after roll i felt drained, and tired. But after those 2 days, I had nice afterglow for almost a week. I know you guys are much more experienced than me, so was my experience really "magic"?  because i really think so


----------



## indigoaura

So, @Kvitamine, you and @RyybsNarcs took the exact same pills and had two opposite experiences? If that is the case, I think this will be the first time in the last 260 pages two people have taken the same product and reported wide variation in the results. 

1. Do either of you take any prescription meds or supplements?
2. Did either of you take anything (vitamins etc.) before the roll to pre-load?
3. When did each of you eat before the roll? What did you eat?
4. What was your mood prior to consuming?
5. Did either of you chew the pill, dissolve it, or otherwise alter it prior to swallowing?
6. Weight for each of you?
7. Were you both together in the same place when you rolled?

Possible explanations:
@RyybsNarcs has "lost the magic" but @Kvitamine has not
Expectation/suggestion caused two different experiences
Pills are unevenly mixed/packed, and pills are not exactly the same with the same mg dosage
Uneven contaminants in the pills


----------



## Rectify

I think it's due to destructive interference being broadcast by the government and specific to MDxx.


----------



## RyybsNarcs

indigoaura said:


> So, @Kvitamine, you and @RyybsNarcs took the exact same pills and had two opposite experiences? If that is the case, I think this will be the first time in the last 260 pages two people have taken the same product and reported wide variation in the results.
> 
> 1. Do either of you take any prescription meds or supplements?
> 2. Did either of you take anything (vitamins etc.) before the roll to pre-load?
> 3. When did each of you eat before the roll? What did you eat?
> 4. What was your mood prior to consuming?
> 5. Did either of you chew the pill, dissolve it, or otherwise alter it prior to swallowing?
> 6. Weight for each of you?
> 7. Were you both together in the same place when you rolled?
> 
> Possible explanations:
> @RyybsNarcs has "lost the magic" but @Kvitamine has not
> Expectation/suggestion caused two different experiences
> Pills are unevenly mixed/packed, and pills are not exactly the same with the same mg dosage
> Uneven contaminants in the pills



Yes, we took exact same pills and rolled together, and have been rolling together since the first time. I have always noticed that @Kvitamine had lower tolerance to MDMA, or higher tolerance to byproducts that mute the experience. Also the 2C-B was from the same batch as well as the LSD day before roll. So we both did all the drugs same way and from same batches.

1. Do either of you take any prescription meds or supplements? Both of us have taken NAC before
2. Did either of you take anything (vitamins etc.) before the roll to pre-load? Both of us took the Vitaplur e-gum and Tums before roll. K-Vitamine took also some magnesium and Vitamine C.
3. When did each of you eat before the roll? What did you eat? I had pretty much empty stomach, Kvitamine had huge munchies before the roll and ate like crazy.
4. What was your mood prior to consuming? We were at summer cottage having fun with our friends so mood was great for both of us
5. Did either of you chew the pill, dissolve it, or otherwise alter it prior to swallowing? Kvitamine just chewed about half of a pill for a start, I crushed the pill for my initial dose.
6. Weight for each of you? I weight about 70kg, Kvitamine about 85kg
7. Were you both together in the same place when you rolled? Yes


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

261 pages of discussion completely destroyed in just two posts.

Now what..?


----------



## tired of crap

@F.U.B.A.R. 
 n=2, continue as normal


----------



## G_Chem

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> 261 pages of discussion completely destroyed in just two posts.
> 
> Now what..?



This is why I gave up lol.

There’s too many factors to ever make sense of it all IMO.  While I do believe in good/magic MDMA and bad/meh MDMA, it’s far from cut and dry as that being it.

For instance with these last two posters...  They both started at the same time but..

1.  What if one uses a lot more than the other?
2.  What if one exercises or eats a better diet?
3.  What if one consumes antioxidants and the other doesn’t?
4.  What other drugs do both these users take/have taken which can alter the experience?
5.  What is the spread on those pills, maybe one was 50-100mg more than the other?
6.  What did they both consume that night? Did one guy eat a monster pizza to himself and the other fasted?
7.  What was the mental state? Was one guy fresh into a relationship and the other guy just got dumped?

The list could go on and on, and sure maybe 1 or 2 of these factors alone wouldnt mean much but you can see how these factors compounded could really mess things up.

In my opinion there’s 3 BROAD categories of MDMA...

True magic MDMA, product which gets 90% of the population the way they want.

Middle Ground MDMA, product which appeases 50% of the population or so.

And meh MDMA, which likely only gets 10-20% of the population to the place of magic MDMA.

Most of the product out there is middle ground or meh it seems.

-GC


----------



## Le Junk

Kvitamine said:


> I already apogalize for my bad english, but here is some background story. I have tried MDMA 5 times in 2 years before this roll with doses 100mg-200mg so I havent abused it. I've had 1 great and 1ok and 3 meh experiences before this and never had confirmed "Magic mdma"  but I am very interested about this thread and want to tell my experience with those red-yellow pirelli's. I consumed those pills with ryybsnarcs and few other friends. I took little bit over half pill for initial dose and rest after 1.5hour mark. Comeup was really, really smooth, everything was so calm, peaceful and I felt so clean for all the time, euphoria, music appreciation, music felt and sound so wonderful, sharp and alive. Tactile enchantment and empathy, i never felt so much empathy from previous rolls, it was so real, so natural empathy and love. It felt like I was in  some kind of love story for a whole roll. When I held hands with my friend, it felt like we had some kind of spiritual bond. everything felt incredible.(vicks inhalers smell so wonderfull) I literally was rolling my eyes back of my skull for whole peak :D  I would say that it was magical experience and i want to quote shulgin "i am complete" .  But why would I have so great experience from same pills that ryybsnarcs had? I really cant even imagine how roll would be any better than this was. 2 days after roll i felt drained, and tired. But after those 2 days, I had nice afterglow for almost a week. I know you guys are much more experienced than me, so was my experience really "magic"?  because i really think so



The two pills were different. No question about it. I’m on my phone so I apologize for not reading the entire story but were some of the pills red and some yellow or were they just reddish/yellow?


----------



## popsweat

I think the two factors here at play is that one person had a large meal before the roll which is a no no of absorption/effects. The other is crushing/chewing the pills. Strictly just swallowing hard presses take longer to come up and in my experience make the roll longer and smoother.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Well I'm going throw my utter guess behind: these pill pressers aren't the producers of the basic content.  They just buy, dye and press.  So you could hit one from the same 'batch' that has magicdma in it.  But without a decent lab analysis who knows.  If it were simply a matter of having a large meal, or chewing, then people who are only sourcing meh nowadays would have found magic accidentally now and then depending on timing and crystal vs pills.  At least that's my thoughts.


----------



## psy997

popsweat said:


> I think the two factors here at play is that one person had a large meal before the roll which is a no no of absorption/effects. The other is crushing/chewing the pills. Strictly just swallowing hard presses take longer to come up and in my experience make the roll longer and smoother.



Except that @Kvitamine , who had the "magic" effects, is the one that ate a huge meal beforehand. If this was the differentiating factor, that would mean some interesting things.



ThreePointCircle said:


> Well I'm going throw my utter guess behind: these pill pressers aren't the producers of the basic content.  They just buy, dye and press.  So you could hit one from the same 'batch' that has magicdma in it.  But without a decent lab analysis who knows.



Not an unreasonable hypothesis.


----------



## JoEhJoEh

I also do not want to say too much but just today I found a very serious site via trustpilot.....

JJ


----------



## ThreePointCircle

JoEhJoEh said:


> I also do not want to say too much but just today I found a very serious site via trustpilot.....


Eh?


----------



## Negi

JoEhJoEh said:


> I also do not want to say too much but just today I found a very serious site via trustpilot.....
> 
> JJ


There's a zero percent chance that a legitimate MDMA vendor will be on trust pilot (unless they've started allowing reviews for DNMs).


----------



## JoEhJoEh

Just wanted to mention. The decision is not mine 

JJ


----------



## indigoaura

I didn''t even know what Trustpilot was. Had to look it up.  Additional info about how to find this interesting site would help.

To me, what makes the most sense is that the pills are just not made in a consistent manner from pill to pill. You can see this on Drugs Data with some of the results that come in from Europe. You will see the same press, but with different dosages. 

Example 1:
https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8674 - 9.7 mg of 2CB
https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8673 - 12.6 mg 2CB

Example 2:
Here are two MDMA pills from the same day/location
https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8592 - 259 mg
https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8591 - 238 mg

If the MDMA crystal is not made well to begin with, it could be inconsistent in effects. Then you take that crystal and make pills and the dosage is different in each pill, maybe with different contaminants present. 

That makes the most sense to me.


----------



## Negi

Pressed pills and uncertain dosages, name a more iconic duo. This is why I'm quite skeptical of "we could roll for 6 hours on 70mg back in the day" reports. I've been looking through the old pillreports.com archive, on a few of the captures you can actually see more of the listed reports (if not all of the comments for each pill). The European results are more useful for this, since sometimes they have proper lab results of the pill dosages. When you match the dosages with the reports, people seemed to react to MDMA more or less the same back then.

Lower doses lack some of the effects.


			
				https://web.archive.org/web/20020901203725/http://www.pillreports.com/showreport.php3?archive=yes&area=2&bywhat=&numres=30&order=DESC&resultcount=3429&searchfor=&sortby=date&startat=2130&sub=-1&substance= said:
			
		

> *    Pacha
> White
> *
> *Color:* White
> *Shape:* Round
> *Logo:* Pacha logo
> 15-Nov-2001SpainbombjGood rush, quiet and chatty. Not much love to share with those
> 
> *EZ Test Result:* EC tested: 72 mg. MDMA


Higher doses give what you expect.


			
				https://web.archive.org/web/20040820192013/http://www.pillreports.com/viewpill.php3?sub=-1&area=2&id=43307 said:
			
		

> Date Submitted27-Jul-2004 Submitted ByJulez
> *#$! Name:peace Area:Amsterdam Color:pink Logo:peace Shape:round Rating:9 Comments:Super Pill : after 30 min. hits in hard.
> Peaks for 5 hours.
> Gives te loving feeling.
> and best: next day no hang-over and others day-after symptomes. EZ Test Result:Tested in the Lab for : 120 mg MDMA



Shoutout to the discussion in the comments for that one


> posted 29-Jul-2004 by mr_goody
> Why do so many people refer to a good pill as a spacey pill?
> The best XTC I've had was pure energy and wonderful physical and mental feelings.
> I love the old school E, it was great.
> Unfortunately, the last pill I took (over a year ago)was horrible. The pill (or powder)gave a sort of drunk spacey feeling.I couldn't wait for it to end. It was not a social feeling.Is that what people like to party with nowadays?
> 
> posted 04-Aug-2004 by tom1
> MR GOODY.
> you are right, E should be about energy love and openness.
> WHER HAS THIS FEELING GONE??
> Does "old skool" E stil exist?
> Why is the only feelings given from it now crappy spacey confusion?
> And why do people still take this?
> BRING BACK THAT FEELING


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi Good find. Awesome to be able to actually see the mg doses with the comments.

2004/2005 is around the time I encountered MehDMA for the first time. For me, prob closer to 2005. 

These comments beg the same question as the last 261 pages. Does the MDMA experience fundamentally change for the individual after crossing some unknown thresh-hold of use, or did something significantly change about MDMA?

There are a lot of things that don't make sense about either interpretation. If it is "loss of magic" then why do new users report the same issues? You would think if that was the case that new users would consistently feel magic, and long-time users would consistently not feel magic. Why do people who have issues with Meh-DMA roll fine on some batches/pills?

Also, this seems to reinforce that 120 mg SHOULD produce the expected effects, and the old pills were not blasting people with 200 mg starting doses.

The answer is probably quite complex, as @G_Chem has said. It may be that there is a new contaminant and some people have a genetic mutation or similar issue that alters how they process it.


----------



## kush407smoke

The main thing is that it seems they've run outta safrole (i think that's what its called) and now other precursors are being used to make the mdma theres still some real good shit out there though


For some people 75mg will be enough but others need 150-200mg to feel the same


----------



## Negi

I'd love for one of these to better define what people are talking about by "spacey/spacing". It shows up a few times on reports like these (unfortunately the pill pages with the full report and comments weren't archived):



			
				https://web.archive.org/web/20040810014355/http://www.pillreports.com/showreport.php3?order=ASC&searchlocation=&sub=-1&area=2&sortby=date&startat=60&numres=30&searchfor=&bywhat=&substance=&archive=&resultcount=535 said:
			
		

> 43059 *    Ufo
> white creamy
> *
> *Color:* white creamy
> *Shape:* round (9x2,5mm)
> *Logo:* bol
> 14-Jul-2004NetherlandsC@NDYMANI had these before a while ago and they where VERY space... a girlfriend who's tested these said the.....
> 
> *EZ Test Result:* labtest: 79mg MDMA843058 *    Mitsubishi
> white with grey specks
> *
> *Color:* white with grey specks
> *Shape:* round (9x3mm)
> *Logo:* mitsu logo
> 14-Jul-2004NetherlandsC@NDYMANjust MDMA, not a high dose or so but a normal one.. this one comes up and down while spacing.. I gue..... more
> 
> _There are 3 user comment(s)_
> 
> *EZ Test Result:* labtest: 57mg MDMA7



It's interesting that the the effect was attributed to lower dosed pills.



indigoaura said:


> the old pills were not blasting people with 200 mg starting doses.



They are rare but higher doses do pop up every now and then.



> Pill Reports - View search report
> 
> 
> 
> *mercedes
> pink
> *
> *Color:* pink
> *Shape:* round 9x4mm
> *Logo:* mercedes star
> 02-Jun-2004NetherlandsanjinClean buzz, lots of energy. No hangover. Very nice pills  more
> 
> _There are 12 user comment(s)_
> 
> *EZ Test Result:* Labtested 170 mg MDMA
> 
> 
> 
> Pill Reports - User Search Results
> 
> 
> 
> Date Submitted28-Jul-2003Submitted Bymicrodot
> *#$!Name:DiamondArea:SkåneColor:YellowLogo:DiamondShape:RoundRating:10Comments:I took  1 pill and it kicked in after 30 min and lasted for 5h. VERY strong kick. Labtested in HollandEZ Test Result:156 mg MDMA labtested further cleanPill Consumed:Yes the pill was eaten
> 
> 
> 
> Pill Reports - User Search Results
> 
> 
> 
> Date Submitted13-Oct-2003 Submitted ByXTC-love
> *#$! Name:dubbele blauwe smilies Area:doetinchem Color:blue Logo:smilie Shape:round Rating:9 Comments:These pills ar lab tested 180mg MDMA they are active in 1 hour and during 3 to 4 hours. EZ Test Result:180mg MDMA


----------



## indigoaura

Hmmm. 

I think the highest dose of crystal I have ever tried was about 155 mg. If the MDMA is only about 80% pure, the actual dose would be lower than that. Maybe I should just take 200 mg and see what happens.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> If the MDMA is only about 80% pure, the actual dose would be lower than that.


I wouldn't worry about or account for possible purity unless someone has done an acetone wash or some other method of determining it. The "84% max purity" meme is based on a misunderstanding and doesn't matter in the real world.

I managed to track down a report that went into more detail about the "spacey feeling".


			
				https://web.archive.org/web/20040105012742/http://www.pillreports.com/viewpill.php3?id=38160 said:
			
		

> Date Submitted26-Nov-2003 Submitted Byrockheaded_pillmuncher
> *#$! Name:Lacoste Area:Manchester Color:White Logo:Crocodile Shape:Round Rating:6 Comments:Took about 30-45 mins to start effecting. Spaced out, dizzy feeling for an hour before reaching a fairly happy peak. Lasted for around four hours with a happy coming down period. Physical effects: Hugely dilated pupils, small amount of jaw tension though not problematic. Seems like a fairly weak dose of MDMA, experienced users would probably need two to come up properly.
> 
> A comment:
> 
> posted 01-Dec-2003 by MisterWize
> Also had these pills in the Manchester area and fully agree with your comments.  They are a bit on the weak side and definitely need to duble drop if you have some tolerance.
> 
> I just hope some decent ones appear soon in time for Christmas. If there's one thing I hate about Christmas, its shite pills that inevitably turn up every year!


So the "spacey feeling" certainly seems to be linked to lower dosages and possibly tolerance.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> I wouldn't worry about or account for possible purity unless someone has done an acetone wash or some other method of determining it. The "84% max purity" meme is based on a misunderstanding and doesn't matter in the real world.
> 
> I managed to track down a report that went into more detail about the "spacey feeling".
> 
> So the "spacey feeling" certainly seems to be linked to lower dosages and possibly tolerance.



She knows, she’s referring to an actual lab analysis she got done which stated a particular batch Indigo is in possession of was 80% pure.  Which honestly I’m doubtful as it seems to exact of a number for my tastes when we know these labs aren’t as on point as we’d hope..


In regards to the spacey feeling, yea that is a low dose thing that doesn’t quite hit the mark and you kind of out of it but not really rolling good either.  I’ve experienced it at low doses (5-40mg) when I played around with them a few times.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi I am not talking about that 84% nonsense. I sent in this specific batch for lab analysis with International Energy Control and was told that 80% of the sample was MDMA and 20% was not MDMA. They specifically stated that it was 80% out of a possible 100% purity. I wanted to know what the other 20% was, and they said they would re-do the analysis for me, but COVID has been so bad in my area I have not wanted to go to the post office.

Also, not sure that I am buying the dosage argument. I had weak pills back then. I recall some that were anchors. We had red ones and white ones. They were weak, and one pill was not enough, you really needed two. Did not change the fact that two of them worked properly. All you needed to do was take the 2nd pill and then you got where you needed to be. 








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #781 - The Great Eight, 781
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				











						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #553 - Anchor, 553
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




I think I ate 5 or 6 of those and it felt like 1-2 good pills. There was no inherent difference in the quality of the roll once you got the dosage right.

That is what is odd to me about the product I have had. Eating more does not really change the flavor of the experience. It doesn't seem to push you over to where you want to be. 

Also, take note that the report you posted says the eyes dilated. So, the eyes dilated with only a low dose of MDMA? That is opposite to what we are observing too.

There was a researcher on here awhile back who hypothesized that it is all something that is at play in the liver. I wish he would have gone into his research more. I can see how that would make sense. The liver is working harder and producing more enzymes to break down the MDMA maybe and get rid of it, before it ever reaches the brain. Maybe some people develop this "reaction" to MDMA after enough subsequent uses?


----------



## Negi

I brought up the dosages in response to the discussion that has occurred in the thread before where people have pointed to what they claim are higher dosages used today to indicate the presence of mehDMA (or some other negative change in current MDMA). The linked dosages+reports push back against that.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> I brought up the dosages in response to the discussion that has occurred in the thread before where people have pointed to what they claim are higher dosages used today to indicate the presence of mehDMA (or some other negative change in current MDMA). The linked dosages+reports push back against that.



How do you come to that conclusion? Because to me, you proved the opposite. People are posting very positive reports for pills that contain between 120-170 mg. 

Yet today, people are reporting sub-par effects from pills that test with much higher doses.








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8692 - Tesla, 8692
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




By all indications in published research, 120 mg should be enough to experience the effects of MDMA. Certainly, a dose of 150 mg should overcome possible purity issues to achieve the right dose. Your linked posts seem to support that 120-150 would produce the desired effects.

So, why are people taking 120-150 mg and not getting those effects?


----------



## JoEhJoEh

Negi said:


> There's a zero percent chance that a legitimate MDMA vendor will be on trust pilot (unless they've started allowing reviews for DNMs).



Look it up. Try&error?

JJ


----------



## G_Chem

People took just as high doses back then, in fact I remember people taking MUCH larger doses at times with not much in the way of repercussions beyond a week of depression (none of this LTC shit.)

Overall good MDMA is better and more energetic/social/fun/loving at all doses than what I perceive meh-DMA to be..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

In regards to this Trust Pilot thing...either I am dumb, or are not getting it, or something. I have gone to Trust Pilot and searched "MDMA" and "Dark Web" and a variety of actual vendor names that I know. Nothing. Maybe you are getting different results because you are accessing Trust Pilot from a different server/IP. But these vague references are really not helping me to find anything of interest there.

Yeah, @G_Chem I had plenty of friends who were double dropping and triple dropping and being dumbasses in general. You were emo and depressed for a week and then you were fine. Your stomach didn't hurt. You weren't dizzy. You didn't have "brain zaps." Never, even after my absolute worst binges, did I ever have "brain zaps." But, they happen with comparatively low doses of Meh product. 



> Overall good MDMA is better and more energetic/social/fun/loving at all doses than what I perceive meh-DMA to be..



Agree with that too. Had an amazing night once on 1/2 of a small pill at a Radiohead show. The vibe had all of the MDMA characteristics (love, empathy, tactile enhancement), but it wasn't a "strong" roll.

Variations in strength are different from variations in tone/flavor.

If I am making a cake, 1 tsp of vanilla will not be as *strong* as 10 tsp of vanilla. However, the flavor will be the same. 

Almond extract, although somewhat similar to vanilla, is not the same flavor. Maybe some people wouldn't quite tell the difference with just 1-2 tsp, but once you added 10 tsp of almond extract it would be clear it was not a vanilla cake. 

Saying that the cake does not taste like vanilla is different from saying that it tastes lightly of vanilla. 

Meh-DMA does not feel the same as a low dose of magic MDMA. The flavor is different. As the dose goes up, all that becomes more clear is that you are definitely not eating a vanilla cake.


----------



## psy997

JoEhJoEh said:


> Look it up. Try&error?
> 
> JJ





indigoaura said:


> In regards to this Trust Pilot thing...either I am dumb, or are not getting it, or something. I have gone to Trust Pilot and searched "MDMA" and "Dark Web" and a variety of actual vendor names that I know. Nothing. Maybe you are getting different results because you are accessing Trust Pilot from a different server/IP. But these vague references are really not helping me to find anything of interest there.



You can't search mdma or dark web. You put in urls. It's for websites. I just found out a few weeks ago that people are using it for clearnet vendors. Needless to say, i was very surprised.


----------



## Xpacta86

Hello everyone. I am fallowing this topic over an year now and wanna share my experience. I am an experienced mdma user since 2005 and definitely remember the magic. Got the double color Pirelli pill (verified genuine pill) produced by Qdance crew - very famous on this tread and was very excited to try potentially good stuff (tired of meh recently). Took a half pill (which was mistake as it is fairly low dose for me) and must say there was some euphoria and talkativeness. Also didn't feel so sleepy like usual but kind of energetic. The effect was short lasting however. Its better than all crap meh I tried recently but definitely not on pair with the mdma back in the days.


----------



## JoEhJoEh

psy997 said:


> You can't search mdma or dark web. You put in urls. It's for websites. I just found out a few weeks ago that people are using it for clearnet vendors. Needless to say, i was very surprised.



No, i meant just use a VPN and look via Trustpilot -  just looking it up is not forbidden.

JJ


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> So, why are people taking 120-150 mg and not getting those effects?



Most people are getting the desired effects from those doses. I'm quite active on the /r/MDMA subreddit, where people frequently post roll/trip reports. Outside of Europe (where people are often taking high strength pills), many people are taking under 200mg (and people who exceed it are usually taking a redose, i.e 150mg + 70mg 90 minutes later). Even the people who are taking the ~250mg pills often mention they are taking them in halves. These reports make it pretty clear that they are getting the classic MDMA effects (I posted some samples back in the thread).

Here's some data from the 2019 Global Drugs Survey:




In many countries, most people don't take more than 200mg of MDMA in a total session (I'm only looking at powder since it's impossible to know the dosages of the pills). And if I remember the survey questions correctly, they only offered 100mg increments for the question. So the that 200mg number includes everyone in that 120mg - 150mg range (as it's more than 100mg).



Xpacta86 said:


> Hello everyone. I am fallowing this topic over an year now and wanna share my experience. I am an experienced mdma user since 2005 and definitely remember the magic. Got the double color Pirelli pill (verified genuine pill) produced by Qdance crew - very famous on this tread and was very excited to try potentially good stuff (tired of meh recently). Took a half pill (which was mistake as it is fairly low dose for me) and must say there was some euphoria and talkativeness. Also didn't feel so sleepy like usual but kind of energetic. The effect was short lasting however. Its better than all crap meh I tried recently but definitely not on pair with the mdma back in the days.



When was your most recent roll before taking the pill (and at what dose)? When did you first encounter mehDMA, and have you had "magic" MDMA since?


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> How do you come to that conclusion? Because to me, you proved the opposite. People are posting very positive reports for pills that contain between 120-170 mg.
> 
> Yet today, people are reporting sub-par effects from pills that test with much higher doses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8692 - Tesla, 8692
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By all indications in published research, 120 mg should be enough to experience the effects of MDMA. Certainly, a dose of 150 mg should overcome possible purity issues to achieve the right dose. Your linked posts seem to support that 120-150 would produce the desired effects.
> 
> So, why are people taking 120-150 mg and not getting those effects?


100mg is adequate to have a very affective result.


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

On the subject of under-dosing: I took 50-60mg or so with a friend two nights ago. We snorted it which we normally don't do and rocketed up quickly to peak. It hit so hard I thought the scales might have been off so we didn't consume the second lines. I noticed we were very quiet during most of the peak although we did talk and a bit and play video games. We had a good time. We re-dosed with 25mg or so each by splitting one of the lines at the two hour mark.

I got VERY hyper-sexual which is something I don't normally do on MDMA (I know, I'm odd). All I could think about was needing some tits with a cute face. I really wanted to have sex. I left my friend's place, drove home, and spent an hour masterbating. I was rolling pretty good and grinding my teeth. I ran out of cigarettes so I drove into town to buy some. I spent at least 30 seconds at the til counting 8 $1 bills over and over again. I finally figured it out, got my smokes, and went home. Took some kratom and managed to fall asleep briefly around 9am (+9 or +10 from dosing). I laid around all day attempting sleep. Woke up at 11pm, had some pot, went back to sleep and slept until 1pm the next day.

I am surprised I got so much from so little. Perhaps the scales are off a hair but there is no way I consumed 100mg. I had done 100mg from the same batch a month or so ago and eyeballing this dose I know it was at least half of the last one. I still have 700mg or so in this batch. I'll probably take it again late in the summer and assuming any is left over I'll hang on to it. I am surprised the thought of having sex was so overwhelming this time. I usually can keep it in check but I just couldn't this time. I don't think I'll be rolling again without female company. I did notice that I was pouring sweat during portions of this roll which again hasn't been much of a problem for me in the past.

MDMA has always been odd for me this way. Other friends say they can't get an erection without Viagra but I've never had that problem. I also noticed I didn't retain as much water with this lower dose. I could pee fine after the peak. I wonder if low doses are this effective for most people but they just dose too high because they're used to it or afraid of wasting the MDMA. In the past I wouldn't ever take less than 120mg but my last two attempts were at 90mg and 50-60mg. The roll isn't as strong but I'm still getting all the good effects with diminished side effects.

I'm worried I'm going to lose the magic though. The last two years I've rolled 6 times which is more than the other 15 years I've used MDMA combined. I really don't want to lose the magic because this substance has already saved two friendships and I want to eventually take it with a long term girlfriend/wife.


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

Just to add to my last post: I checked in with my friend today to see how he's doing and he reported no come-down at all. Said he was fine the next morning. He described it as good stuff and better than the last batch I gave him two years ago when I dosed him at 120mg with a 50-60mg re-dose at 2-3 hours in. I have not gotten a chance to do it yet but I'll be sharing this batch with some older folks later in the summer. People that haven't had MDMA since the 1980s. They're so old they call the stuff "Mad Dog". I'll let you guys know how they like it.


----------



## indigoaura

@HeadphonesandLSD I have been wondering what a low dose would feel like lately. It is just hard to know how to approach it, because usually I take my 120 mg and feel like I don't get what I need, and want the re-dose. Hard to imagine taking less than 120 would produce a different vibe, but maybe it would. There is definitely a sweet spot in the low dosage range of 2CB where it feels very euphoric and empathetic and no psychedelic, but if you take too much, you miss that sweet spot.

All the sexual stuff you are talking about is what MDMA used to be like for me. Once I was with a partner who was open to exploring it, I lost interest in doing MDMA at parties or shows and just wanted to do it at home with him. Nothing was as interesting, exciting, or appealing as that. 

Any chance you could send some of this sample to a lab to make certain it is MDMA and only MDMA?


----------



## RyybsNarcs

Xpacta86 said:


> Hello everyone. I am fallowing this topic over an year now and wanna share my experience. I am an experienced mdma user since 2005 and definitely remember the magic. Got the double color Pirelli pill (verified genuine pill) produced by Qdance crew - very famous on this tread and was very excited to try potentially good stuff (tired of meh recently). Took a half pill (which was mistake as it is fairly low dose for me) and must say there was some euphoria and talkativeness. Also didn't feel so sleepy like usual but kind of energetic. The effect was short lasting however. Its better than all crap meh I tried recently but definitely not on pair with the mdma back in the days.


Sounds exactly same as my experience with those Pirelli's. Definitely better than most of the MDMA I have tried, but still missing something. Also, duration was short for me too.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Most people are getting the desired effects from those doses. I'm quite active on the /r/MDMA subreddit, where people frequently post roll/trip reports. Outside of Europe (where people are often taking high strength pills), many people are taking under 200mg (and people who exceed it are usually taking a redose, i.e 150mg + 70mg 90 minutes later). Even the people who are taking the ~250mg pills often mention they are taking them in halves. These reports make it pretty clear that they are getting the classic MDMA effects (I posted some samples back in the thread).
> 
> Here's some data from the 2019 Global Drugs Survey:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In many countries, most people don't take more than 200mg of MDMA in a total session (I'm only looking at powder since it's impossible to know the dosages of the pills). And if I remember the survey questions correctly, they only offered 100mg increments for the question. So the that 200mg number includes everyone in that 120mg - 150mg range (as it's more than 100mg).
> 
> 
> 
> When was your most recent roll before taking the pill (and at what dose)? When did you first encounter mehDMA, and have you had "magic" MDMA since?



I too frequent that subreddit and I disagree to some extent... While I do on occasion see some people truly getting the real experience I also see a lot more people that don’t.  

Very rarely did I see a pupil picture that looked right when they were popular.  The lack of openness of many of the posters, and general negativity that often moves around that forum shows this as well.

And are you kidding me on dosing? Yea some of the American posters maybe?.. All the UK sesh lads that swear up and down they get the best product also swear only 250+mg doses work.


I am someone who rarely comes across lackluster product but it was actually that subreddit which has been pushing me to find answers cuz the love ain’t quite what it used to be, if viewing that subreddit as an example of where we are at today..

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

HeadphonesandLSD said:


> Just to add to my last post: I checked in with my friend today to see how he's doing and he reported no come-down at all. Said he was fine the next morning. He described it as good stuff and better than the last batch I gave him two years ago when I dosed him at 120mg with a 50-60mg re-dose at 2-3 hours in. I have not gotten a chance to do it yet but I'll be sharing this batch with some older folks later in the summer. People that haven't had MDMA since the 1980s. They're so old they call the stuff "Mad Dog". I'll let you guys know how they like it.



Could be MDA too? MDA is a pretty decent experience around those doses that feels more like MDMA than MDA.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Safrole MDMA is still about people, like I’ve been saying.. Here’s the proof.









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8654 - MDMA, 8654 (m)
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




Sample contains ~17% MDP2P and ~17% dihydrosafrole.  This indicates the residual oils weren’t cleaned out during synthesis.  Dihydrosafrole is the result of safrole being reduced at the end with the ketone to MDMA.

Dihydrosafrole is also said to be very neurotoxic, not something you want to consume.  That said I’ve also wondered what it’s capabilities are to produce psychoactive effects.

This was located in AZ, likely cartel chemists hence the poor purity and the safrole starting material.  Cartel chemists usually use older routes.

The reporter also says nothing about expecting anything other than MDMA, so the experience wasn’t terribly off for this one user.

-GC


----------



## JoEhJoEh

G_Chem said:


> I too frequent that subreddit and I disagree to some extent... While I do on occasion see some people truly getting the real experience I also see a lot more people that don’t.
> 
> Very rarely did I see a pupil picture that looked right when they were popular.  The lack of openness of many of the posters, and general negativity that often moves around that forum shows this as well.
> 
> And are you kidding me on dosing? Yea some of the American posters maybe?.. All the UK sesh lads that swear up and down they get the best product also swear only 250+mg doses work
> I am someone who rarely comes across lackluster product but it was actually that subreddit which has been pushing me to find answers cuz the love ain’t quite what it used to be, if viewing that subreddit as an example of where we are at today..
> 
> -GC



OMG 250???

I'm very satisfied with 50 to 100 mg. never more.


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> Very rarely did I see a pupil picture that looked right when they were popular.



The reason that pupil pictures doesn't show up anymore is because they were all moved to /r/DilatedPupils/. If you do a search for "MDMA" or "rolling" on there you will absolutely see that people are getting a strong effect.



G_Chem said:


> The lack of openness of many of the posters, and general negativity that often moves around that forum shows this as well.



I won't comment on the general atmosphere, but just looking at the posts where individuals make it clear that they are rolling most of them are looking for people to talk with, which does not match any of the reported "mehDMA" effects (everyone notes a total lack of the pro-social effects, and often a desire to be alone).



G_Chem said:


> And are you kidding me on dosing? Yea some of the American posters maybe?.. All the UK sesh lads that swear up and down they get the best product also swear only 250+mg doses work.



I feel like the heavy use in the UK is much more a function of wider social and cultural forces than the quality of the MDMA. It's certainly not limited to MDMA, and nobody is claiming that alcohol has changed because 14 year olds in the UK are necking 3 cans of cider and trying to stab someone. It's also not a new phenomenon, when I was reading through the archived pill reports people in 2000 were talking about taking 19 pills over the course of a night. I don't think anyone has claimed that heavy users (which the weekly sesh heads certainly are) don't build a tolerance on "magic MDMA".


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> The reason that pupil pictures doesn't show up anymore is because they were all moved to /r/DilatedPupils/. If you do a search for "MDMA" or "rolling" on there you will absolutely see that people are getting a strong effect.
> 
> 
> 
> I won't comment on the general atmosphere, but just looking at the posts where individuals make it clear that they are rolling most of them are looking for people to talk with, which does not match any of the reported "mehDMA" effects (everyone notes a total lack of the pro-social effects, and often a desire to be alone).
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like the heavy use in the UK is much more a function of wider social and cultural forces than the quality of the MDMA. It's certainly not limited to MDMA, and nobody is claiming that alcohol has changed because 14 year olds in the UK are necking 3 cans of cider and trying to stab someone. It's also not a new phenomenon, when I was reading through the archived pill reports people in 2000 were talking about taking 19 pills over the course of a night. I don't think anyone has claimed that heavy users (which the weekly sesh heads certainly are) don't build a tolerance on "magic MDMA".



Not sure you read that first quote, I said “when they were popular” aka still around.  I know they just moved elsewhere and I disagree most of the pupil pictures I’ve seen on Reddit are lackluster.  I’ll go look agai right now to see what I see though.


You won’t comment on the general atmosphere because you know what I’m talking about, folks getting neg repped for good info while stupid sesh lads get positive repped to infinity for moronic memes about eat “T0nz of druuugzz.”


14 yr olds have ALWAYS been necking 3 ciders and doing stupid shit.  That’s been a forever thing, I did it when I was a kid, my dad did it...  MDMA on the other hand has changed drastically in dosages used over the years in odd ways that don’t necessarily correlate with societal changes.

I’m sorry but I’ve watch kids who think they can eat “soo much MD” eat some of the product I get and be floored off 100mg.  I just don’t buy that 12yr old UK kids can eat 250mg off the bat and have minimal effects like I hear on that subreddit.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> You won’t comment on the general atmosphere because you know what I’m talking about, folks getting neg repped for good info while stupid sesh lads get positive repped to infinity for moronic memes about eat “T0nz of druuugzz.”



Unfortunately that's just the way that reddit works, funny images/memes are always going to get more upvotes because they are relateable to more people than discussion posts (and also easier to see for people lazily scrolling through reddit on their phone, which is a majority of users these days). The LSD subreddit has it far worse. Once you get off the front page and into the comments on posts I almost always see helpful advice being upvoted, and people will call out heavy doses and frequent rolls (almost to the extreme, many people there seem to consider the three months rule essential for brain health, rather than a suggestion to retain the magic).



G_Chem said:


> 14 yr olds have ALWAYS been necking 3 ciders and doing stupid shit. That’s been a forever thing, I did it when I was a kid, my dad did it... MDMA on the other hand has changed drastically in dosages used over the years in odd ways that don’t necessarily correlate with societal changes.



The price of alcohol hasn't dropped to nearly a 1/4 of what it once was at the same time that the bottles doubled in size (pill dosages going to over 200mg) and 1L jugs of pure alcohol became available (the ability to buy grams of powder MDMA). My point was also that lots of countries don't have heavy binge drinking among young teenagers, UK drinking culture is a pretty extreme outlier in that regard.



G_Chem said:


> I’m sorry but I’ve watch kids who think they can eat “soo much MD” eat some of the product I get and be floored off 100mg



That just sounds like kids lying about their use to fit in and seem cool. I'm sure everyone's met someone who "smokes so much weed" or "tripped super hard on mushrooms/LSD" but then got way too high or freaked out when they were actually given drugs.



G_Chem said:


> I just don’t buy that 12yr old UK kids can eat 250mg off the bat and have minimal effects like I hear on that subreddit.



We must be reading completely different trip/roll reports. When I've seen young people from the UK talk about heavy dosed first experiences "minimal effects" is certainly not the result. They talk about being totally incoherent and ending up with shredded gums from gurning. I think what the UK "sesh"/party culture is doing to young teenagers is pretty horrific, and I even made one of those stupid memes to try and get it across to the subreddit


Here's the post, there's some interesting discussion about US vs UK MDMA usage in the comments: 




brits just love getting fucked up from
      MDMA


----------



## JoEhJoEh

I'm not a native speaker and I have a superstupid question:

I always read "rolling" here. Does that just mean you are on MDMA or XTC or does it have other meanings, too?

Jj


----------



## Negi

JoEhJoEh said:


> I'm not a native speaker and I have a superstupid question:
> 
> I always read "rolling" here. Does that just mean you are on MDMA or XTC or does it have other meanings, too?
> 
> Jj



Nope, that's pretty much it:



			
				https://erowid.org/ask/ask.php?ID=2783 said:
			
		

> As you probably know, the term "rolling" refers to the state of being on ecstasy. My understanding of the origins of this term are that it comes from the physical sensation of the drug.
> "Rolling face" is usually used to mean feeling the effects very strongly - similar to the way LSD users will say "tripping balls" when they're having an unusually strong trip.


----------



## draculic acid69

JoEhJoEh said:


> OMG 250???
> 
> I'm very satisfied with 50 to 100 mg. never more.


Even when I was a frequent heavy user I only once had more than 2x100mg at one time.i had 3 once and blacked out.
250mg all at once implies sub standard product in one way or another


----------



## Negi

draculic acid69 said:


> Even when I was a frequent heavy user I only once had more than 2x100mg at one time.i had 3 once and blacked out.
> 250mg all at once implies sub standard product in one way or another


How often were you taking it as a frequent heavy user? Did you notice any tolerance or reduction in effectiveness?


----------



## draculic acid69

Tolerance: yes, to a degree but no reduction in effectiveness.a single pill still got me high for a few hours.it never stopped working. Friday and Saturday nights every wk for two+solid years of going hard.


----------



## indigoaura

I have no idea what my 2000-2005 doses were really, because who knows what the pills contained. But, I always just started with a single pill, and I never double dropped. Yes, I re-dosed. I almost always took a total of 2-3 pills. There were a handful of occasions I took more than that. I think the most I ever took in one night was 5 pills (due to them being weaker pills to begin with). Never participated in the weekly culture, always waited a month.

I am sure that to many people who read my comments I seem like an obvious case of losing the magic (and maybe I am). What none of you really understand, however, is how my experience transformed from a very predictable, reliable, experience to a completely different experience the minute my dealer quit and I started using "molly" instead of pills. The change correlated with the change in drug provider, and this happened back in 2005, and I've been wondering about it ever since.

So, my "loss of magic" would have needed to occur precisely at the point that I stopped having a supplier for pills, which seems odd.


----------



## Negi

draculic acid69 said:


> Tolerance: yes, to a degree but no reduction in effectiveness.a single pill still got me high for a few hours.it never stopped working. Friday and Saturday nights every wk for two+solid years of going hard.



You still had the whole "I love everyone and can feel the connections to them, lets have deep conversations" part of MDMA at the end of that? That's pretty impressive.


----------



## draculic acid69

Negi said:


> You still had the whole "I love everyone and can feel the connections to them, lets have deep conversations" part of MDMA at the end of that? That's pretty impressive.


Yes.none of the effect changed which is why I think the whole waiting two months between rolls to avoid whatever bullshit they say this prevents is nonsense.tolerance happens but even with the regularity it never resulted in "loss of magic" or anything else ppl r claiming could be the reason for sub-par product


----------



## Negi

It seems to be pretty clear that individual genetics/biology plays a very significant role in tolerance, "losing the magic" and even stuff like comedowns. This makes any discussion and advice related to the matter quite complicated. It also tends to focus communities and discussion in certain ways, because individuals who quickly lose the effects or have horrific comedowns are much less likely to stick around in the rave scene/MDMA discussion forums. The origin of the "three month rule" was Ann Shulgin, and if anyone had the highest quality MDMA it would be her (unless people think that Shulgin's original re-synthesis in the 1970's was mehDMA).



			
				https://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/shulgin_alexander/shulgin_alexander_interview2.shtml said:
			
		

> The only thing that has happened with everyone I know who has used MDMA a great deal is that if they used it more than 4 times a year, they developed a tolerance, and after a few years, it begins to not work for them. They want to get back the magic of the first experience, and that is a mistake, because - as Sasha likes to say -- "You never step into the same river water twice. " I found out, for myself, that using MDMA more often than four times a year was not wise. I used MDMA as a writing drug for about a year. Once a week, I would do a great deal of writing using MDMA; it was a wonderful experience for me to use it that way, but I discovered after that kind of use that I had to go up in dosage to get an effect, and the effect became less and less the magical insight; it was more and more the stimulant effects, and for many years now, I have been totally unable to use it. Not only because now it is illegal, but because I used it once a week, and that was too often. Nobody knew that, then, but now I would advise anyone who wants to use MDMA not to take it more than 4 times a year if you want to continue to get the best effects from it, otherwise you risk losing its effects entirely and permanently.


----------



## indigoaura

draculic acid69 said:


> Yes.none of the effect changed which is why I think the whole waiting two months between rolls to avoid whatever bullshit they say this prevents is nonsense.tolerance happens but even with the regularity it never resulted in "loss of magic" or anything else ppl r claiming could be the reason for sub-par product



Even among my friend group, the seriousness of the comedowns and long term effects from MDMA use vary greatly. Three people I know developed bi-polar disorder that required they be institutionalized due to hallucinations. Another woman I know only did MDMA a few times and had a psychotic break that spiraled her into a severe depression. I realize it could be argued that perhaps people with bi-polar disorder/depression are pre-disposed to MDMA to begin with, and that is absolutely possible. But I do find it odd that so many people I know who used MDMA went in this direction. Several other friends who abused MDMA pretty heavily developed severe depression later in life. My partner has a host of bizarre health/psychological problems and auto-immune issues with unclear origins. All of this may have happened to these people anyway, and it might have nothing to do with MDMA. BUT, the MDMA could have also played a part, or played a synergistic role with alcohol use etc.

On the other hand, I have friends who have never stopped using MDMA for 20 years and are fine, with seemingly no health issues or psychological problems.


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

G_Chem said:


> Could be MDA too? MDA is a pretty decent experience around those doses that feels more like MDMA than MDA.
> 
> -GC



It isn't MDA. If the source I got it from had MDA they would have sold it to me as MDA. I requested MDA when I bought this batch and was informed that there was none but there was good MDMA in stock. I'll see about sending some out to a lab to have it tested. My last dose may have been more than 50mg but there is no way the initial dose was higher than 70mg. I checked the scales I used today they're calibrated correctly and the remainder of what I bought is still in the bag less what I've done myself and given away (about 300mg). It's weighing up right where it's supposed to be.


----------



## Simosom

@G_Chem
You are always having best reviews of your stashed batches. 
Community would be thankful if you can send some of your magic stuff to Energy Control or to Indigoaura so she can try and bust magic loss myth once for all.


----------



## G_Chem

Simosom said:


> @G_Chem
> You are always having best reviews of your stashed batches.
> Community would be thankful if you can send some of your magic stuff to Energy Control or to Indigoaura so she can try and bust magic loss myth once for all.



We’re in the process  Hopefully we’ll be sending in the most recent batch I took to see what happens.

I think it’s my local connects back home cuz I’ve yet to find anything similar when I travel about.  My home is known for producing very intelligent yet “progressive” minds.

-GC


----------



## Simosom

Great. 
Thank you in the name of the community.


----------



## G_Chem

Simosom said:


> Great.
> Thank you in the name of the community.



Thank Indigo too, she’s the one that will be covering the bill.  I’m just a poor wook with good connects and an eye for quality haha.

Really curious about this last batch myself, it was different in an odd way that was unlike much of the product I’ve been taking.

When I characterize “meh” I think of a product which isn’t very social, mongy/sleepy can’t-keep-your-eyes-open, lack of love, lack of euphoria, 2-3 hour experience.

The stuff I typically take is very social, not sleepy although not super stimulating either, a nice natural energy, very loving, 4-6hr experience.

This last product was like too strong for public, the first hour was the peak of all peaks, hypersexual, coulda been fucking in public if it all lined up, then mellowed out a bit more but overall even more stimulating.  Woke up with a headache too which reminded me of how good pills used to feel back in 00’s, I would always wake up with a splitting headache that would go away fairly quick into an afterglow.  (Exactly like this last experience.)

When comparing the last experience to my typical, it was better/stronger but I still absolutely love the clean natural less pushy feel of the “typical” stuff.  I don’t think this product would be good for multiple day festivals where you gotta feel like a halfway normal human being when you wake up.  Trying to gather my shit and hike it all out after that woulda been interesting lol.

The afterglow from this last one however has been very nice and longer lasting than usual.  I will cherish the rest of this measly gram I have.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> Really curious about this last batch myself, it was different in an odd way that was unlike much of the product I’ve been taking.



People who came into Houston from out of town used to comment on the different quality of our ecstasy back in the 00s. They said it was more intense than what they found elsewhere. I wonder if this batch you have is the same as what was going around Houston. It sounds the same from your description. Do you think there is any chance this batch you have is a leuckart synth?


----------



## Xpacta86

Negi said:


> Most people are getting the desired effects from those doses. I'm quite active on the /r/MDMA subreddit, where people frequently post roll/trip reports. Outside of Europe (where people are often taking high strength pills), many people are taking under 200mg (and people who exceed it are usually taking a redose, i.e 150mg + 70mg 90 minutes later). Even the people who are taking the ~250mg pills often mention they are taking them in halves. These reports make it pretty clear that they are getting the classic MDMA effects (I posted some samples back in the thread).
> 
> Here's some data from the 2019 Global Drugs Survey:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In many countries, most people don't take more than 200mg of MDMA in a total session (I'm only looking at powder since it's impossible to know the dosages of the pills). And if I remember the survey questions correctly, they only offered 100mg increments for the question. So the that 200mg number includes everyone in that 120mg - 150mg range (as it's more than 100mg).
> 
> 
> 
> When was your most recent roll before taking the pill (and at what dose)? When did you first encounter mehDMA, and have you had "magic" MDMA since?


Last roll was February - 3x130 mg. Meh appeared around 2008 in my area. 2015 took some dutch imported pills were awesome - real magic. Since that encountered only mehMDMA.


----------



## Negi

Xpacta86 said:


> Last roll was February - 3x130 mg. Meh appeared around 2008 in my area. 2015 took some dutch imported pills were awesome - real magic. Since that encountered only mehMDMA.


How would you describe the effects of mehDMA (in terms of duration, presence/lack of stimulation, presence/lack of empathy, anything else)? Also have the effects of the mehDMA been consistent since you first encountered it?


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> People who came into Houston from out of town used to comment on the different quality of our ecstasy back in the 00s. They said it was more intense than what they found elsewhere. I wonder if this batch you have is the same as what was going around Houston. It sounds the same from your description. Do you think there is any chance this batch you have is a leuckart synth?



I’m actually taking it out tonight to double check and see if it’s turns the Marquis blue after awhile like I theorize the old Leuckart product did.

I have been thinking that myself though, if ever I came across a product that matches the description this is it.

Houston likely had some well established producers with well established methods for quite awhile in those days, I mean in the 80’s and 90’s it was for sure a hub but I get feeling throughout the 00’s that kinda changed slowly.

-GC


----------



## JoEhJoEh

Simosom said:


> Great.
> Thank you in the name of the community.


Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat would be great. 

I also bought 10 chupa chups at clearnet and they were perfect. i always need low dose so i did 1/4 of it - 60 mg is enough for me.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> People who came into Houston from out of town used to comment on the different quality of our ecstasy back in the 00s. They said it was more intense than what they found elsewhere. I wonder if this batch you have is the same as what was going around Houston. It sounds the same from your description. Do you think there is any chance this batch you have is a leuckart synth?



Well well well...

I now see something I didn’t see before...  This shit as well as my other without a doubt best batch (a batch that I’ve gotten 5 amazing experiences out of..) turned a bluish purplish color after sitting for about a minute whereas the other 2 I tried not so much.

The reason I didn’t catch it before is I wasn’t doing side by sides of Marquis and this bluish Purple can be confused by my mind as Purple easily but once up against the others, the others were more reddish/brownish/purplish/black.

I was also swirling the puddle a great deal to try and spread the color.

Don’t wanna get too hopeful as reagents aren’t foolproof by any means but what I just saw got me a little excited and now I think I’ve got a better idea what to look for.

Thing is I’ve always based my theories on the black to blue reaction shown on the Ez Test Marquis chart from the 90’s.  While this did follow a similar time line to the chart it wasn’t quite the deep blue shown there, more of an indigo blue slight purple in there.

So who knows, I’d need to do a side by side of all my batches just Marquis to see what I find but that’ll have to wait.  Busy these days baking sourdoughs n such 

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

> more of an indigo blue slight purple in there.



It is clearly indigo for me. :D


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> It is clearly indigo for me. :D



This got me thinking back to the reports from the late 90’s early 00’s of pills with Reagent results and brief descriptions.  I thought I remember some saying Indigo and sure enough...

“*Test result:* after about 5 seconds color changed to black and then finally changed to indigo...textbook MDMA

*Overall effect:* Dancy *Physical effect:* Jaw stiffness/clenching
*User reports:* these pills were the best pills that have been around for a long time. 45 min. to come up and lovely long rolls the whole night through. A little jaw clenching but no more than you would expect from ecstasy. The pills were unusually large but well made and pressed. without doubt the best out there at the moment..get them while you can, highly recommended.”

“*Test result:* Black in Fifteen or so Secs, Getting Blueish purple by a Min

*User reports:* Overall Very good, Came up after 35 Minutes or so, 6-7 hour roll, Rolled very hard, some visual streaking towards end of roll, was told by my boy it was pure mdma”

“*Test result:* Straight to black, then some what dark purplish color

*Overall effect:* Trippy *Physical effect:* Jaw stiffness/clenching
*User reports:* Damn, this pill is notorious! ask anyone around the L.A. area!! BEST trip in a long time! I took 1 and it kicked me in 15 min. and kept me happy for 4 hours! Very strong pills. The old batch (which is better than the new batch) is colored dark Green, however, the new batch is light Green.”

“*Test result:* Went Black Suprisingly Quickly, Getting Purpler After A Minute Or So

*Overall effect:* Dancy *Physical effect:* Blurred/distored vision
*User reports:* Blew up after about forty minutes, rolled for five or six hours, very good pill, alittle more visual than usual, so probably some mdea, but plenty of love and jaw soreness, so alot of mdma too,”

“*Test result:* These pills have a very distincive test, this one was repeated several times in very good light using very small samples. The liquid turns blue almost straight away and then turns black. This happens very quickly. After a few seconds there is black liquid with some blue. The black may be deep purple

*Overall effect:* Dancy *Physical effect:* Blurred/distored vision
*User reports:* These are very strong. The effect comes on with waves and is very dancey, lasting for 3 - 4 hours. This is followed by a very trippy period of visual distortions. No need to sleep.”

NOTE:  This last result was for the “radioactive” presses going around in 99, there were many other results for this one which said black to blue.  This report is the best clue that maybe I’m right and this “blue” is really more of bluish Purple type color.

“*Test result:* went straight to black in 5 seconds and gradually turned indigo...MDMA

*Overall effect:* Loved up *Physical effect:* No effect
*User reports:* What can I say... these pills are excellent, it was like takingan ecstasy pill for the first time again. 45 mins to come up, nice peak with terrific rolls for about 5-6 hours. These are definitely the best pills that I have ever taken, very clean buzz and I guarantee that these will make you extra horny!! Get these pills if you can. Several of my friends have tried them and they having been raving about them. Hope that I can get some more real soon...godd hunting fellow trippers!!”



These are just the reports I found for the first 5 pages.  I think I’m onto something here guys  and now I feel lucky with access to what I have..

Notice how each report talks about them being the best pills they’ve taken in awhile (not super common looking at other reports) as well as an extra “trippiness.”

@F.U.B.A.R. often talks of how the product used to be trippier too...  Lots of connections here.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> It is clearly indigo for me. :D



Indigo, I just thought too if this batch is Leuckart and I send it in, I could ask the lab to look for n-formyl-MDMA.  This should be there in quantities hopefully visible to their analysis, and is unique to Leuckart.

One study for PMMA showed that there was 15-20% n-formyl-pmma when made via Leuckart.  Extrapolating for MDMA, and it’s reasonable to think if it’s there and there looking well enough they’d find it.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Is this the kind of color you saw? Marquis looks a bit indigo in the second photo.








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8656 - Mitsubishi, 8656
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




Interesting that the sender commented that they expected it to be a mix, but it was just MDMA. 

The colors on that Mistsubishi pill are very different than the colors shown for this molly sample, which looks more brown/purple than indigo.








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8655 - Molly, 8655
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org


----------



## Chonciceptor

Hey everyone, I e been keeping up with the conversation but haven’t posted in a while. My wife and I got some supposed checkpoint orange Tesla’s (230mg) about 6 months ago and finally had the opportunity to test them out. I know I’m not adding significant info here, just letting you know the experience. We had them tested, and came back as 100% mdma, no other active ingredients. It has been 1.5 years since our last roll. We dropped 1/2 pill about 5:30pm and by 6 we we’re definitely feeling it, she got real nauseous for the first 30 minutes of her roll, I was fine. Extreme eye jitters, and the most jaw clenching I’ve ever experienced. Absolutely no dilated pupils, no euphoria, no closeness, not really interested in music or conversation, just felt cold and high. About 730ish the effects were already starting to dwindle. So we took another half. The roll after that kicked in was much much better, but still lacking the classic mdma awesomeness lol. We took another half about 10 and fell asleep almost immediately after, meaning the third dose did nothing at all. My wife is a lot more susceptible to comedowns than I am and she felt sick and nauseous for 2 whole days afterwards, hard time sleeping because brain zaps would jerk her awake. On the third day she was fine. This marks 5 years that we have been getting mehdma, and it’s all been darknet since we lost our local plug. This was our first time to try pills as all the others were rocks and shards, sadly, same result. I think our mdma days may be over, which is sad, she only got to experience mdma for a brief time in the first place, and only about 4 good rolls before we lost our local plug and started getting this bullshit. So that was our experience. I’m really hoping something can be figured out with all of this!


----------



## Chonciceptor

indigoaura said:


> Maybe we need three categories. Magic MDMA, Meh-DMA, and Sexual-super-freak MDMA.
> 
> But, yeah, it is just a totally different vibe. A friend of mine described the old magic MDMA as one prolonged orgasm, and that was my experience too. The meh-DMA just does not have that quality. And while I've never found babies particularly appealing, the meh stuff does just create a lazy vibe where you can't be bothered to do much of anything.


I agree with this 100%, since we are from the same area I’m pretty sure were getting the same stuff. In my late 90’s early 2000 days it was super magic, 2013-2015 it was sexual super freak mdma, and 2015 to present, mehdma. Very frustrating!


----------



## indigoaura

@Chonciceptor Would you clarify for some of the newer participants in the thread what your history of use was (you and your wife) when you first encountered MehDMA? As I recall, you had the same situation as me to some extent. Your dealer quit or you lost touch, and then you were cut off from a reliable supplier, right? As I recall, you had a long history of use but your wife was new to MDMA, yet you both felt the same MehDMA feelings when you tried the new product. Previously it had been all sexy and wonderful, and the new stuff was just meh.

This is a very concise and accurate description, by the way: "Absolutely no dilated pupils, no euphoria, no closeness, not really interested in music or conversation, just felt cold and high."


----------



## Xpacta86

Negi said:


> How would you describe the effects of mehDMA (in terms of duration, presence/lack of stimulation, presence/lack of empathy, anything else)? Also have the effects of the mehDMA been consistent since you first encountered it?


I have lots of experience with both will describe main characteristics:
MehMDMA - cold waves, sleepy mood, lack of energy, lack of empathy and feelings 
Magic MDMA - slightly energized, very communicative, love feeling/euphoria, music enhance
Me personally I experienced dilated pupils on both


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> Is this the kind of color you saw? Marquis looks a bit indigo in the second photo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8656 - Mitsubishi, 8656
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting that the sender commented that they expected it to be a mix, but it was just MDMA.
> 
> The colors on that Mistsubishi pill are very different than the colors shown for this molly sample, which looks more brown/purple than indigo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8655 - Molly, 8655
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org



So for that Mitsubishi pill I’d say that color is close, notice how there seems to be little patches of bluer shade, that’s how this looked too.

Indeed interesting they thought there was “speed or heroin” in it.  Shows they are fairly uninformed user but that said they did feel as if the product was different from “normal” which is worth noting.

Because of the excitement of last night I’ll be doing some more tests today I think to see what I see..

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

I gotta say something has revitalized my motivation for this topic, maybe it’s the fact I’ve possibly stumbled upon my elusive “Leuckart” MDMA..  

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Chonciceptor said:


> I agree with this 100%, since we are from the same area I’m pretty sure were getting the same stuff. In my late 90’s early 2000 days it was super magic, 2013-2015 it was sexual super freak mdma, and 2015 to present, mehdma. Very frustrating!



I remember 2013-2015 was a good time for MDxx.  2014 saw some of best Crystal MDA I’ve ever seen or had before or since.  Tons of amazing shard MDMA.  2013 was full of awesome presses.

2014 I actually had an experience equal to my first (my first being 04-05 I believe). Goddamn I was in love with the world on that day.

I had product from 2013-2015 era last me up until this last year.  When it’s good I try to buy a fair share to last me.

2015 was the end of a few things for me, IMO the “scene” has been progressively getting darker since 2015.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Gonna add more reports I find that resemble the more purplish/blue I saw...

“*Test result:* Straight to black then dark blue/ purple after 40 seconds or so

*Overall effect:* Loved up *Physical effect:* 
*User reports:* Pukka, best pill ever, got in Ibiza same time as I got Mitsi's last year.... then they came here soon after!!!!! they were better even than the the first Mitsi's that came out”

“*Test result:* Turned purple after five seconds,then after about 10 secs,started turning black also.After 30 secs,it was a combinatoin of light purple and black

*Overall effect:* Dancy *Physical effect:* Jaw stiffness/clenching
*User reports:* The best I've ever taken.I roll almost every weekend and i still only needed one of these to keep me going for 5-6hrs.Reccomended by JQ.”

“T*est result:* fast to black and turned indigo ager about 25 seconds.

*Overall effect:* Loved up *Physical effect:* Jaw stiffness/clenching
*User reports:* Awesome!!!! at first it was really speedy, but it mellowed off. I blew up for hours, doing nothing but sitting on a friends back porch. I was with a lot of people i barely new, but i could look at them and feel a genuine feeling of love. It took about 30 minutes to come up. And when it hit, it hit like a tone of bricks! I rolled hard for about 4 hours. I went to sleep still rolling. When i woke up the next morning I went to work still feeling the mild wonderful effects of this awesome pill!!”

“*Test result:* These mitsis are slightly smaller than some recent ones. Both in diameter and thickness. Flat on both sides. Mitubishi logo has one of the "prongs" slightly bent out of shape! Straight to black - Slight fizzing. Then purple-ish blue after 1 minute. Indicates MDMA

*Overall effect:* Loved up *Physical effect:* No effect
*User reports:* Haven't taken one yet, but Very good reports from those that have.”



After 2000 it becomes near impossible to find any more reports similar to mine.

A few key things.

1). It seems many of these reports are glowing compared to others on the list, often saying they were the best pills they had.

2).  They seem to still differ from the supposed “radiant blue” seen with other presses from that time.  This is definitely not a radiant blue.

3).  Around 2000 I notice the reports indicating blue in the Marquis begins to show weaker pills based on the slower/weaker Reagent reactions as well as reports attached to these pills.


It seems that around 2000 they were nearing the end of Leuckart MDMA supplies which had been stockpiled and switching to MDMA made from other routes.

I also wonder if this Marquis reaction I’m seeing is what a more pure (or less pure?) batch of Leuckart MDMA looks like..  Because frankly the best reports I saw all related to the more indigo purplish/bluish reaction.

It’s the timeline thing too which is interesting.  Lots of MDMA will go straight to black or purple to black and stay there, this color seems to develop over time..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> I remember 2013-2015 was a good time for MDxx.  2014 saw some of best Crystal MDA I’ve ever seen or had before or since.  Tons of amazing shard MDMA.  2013 was full of awesome presses.
> 
> 2014 I actually had an experience equal to my first (my first being 04-05 I believe). Goddamn I was in love with the world on that day.
> 
> I had product from 2013-2015 era last me up until this last year.  When it’s good I try to buy a fair share to last me.
> 
> 2015 was the end of a few things for me, IMO the “scene” has been progressively getting darker since 2015.
> 
> -GC



I started thinking about this, and I actually had some decent local MDMA in 2014. A friend of mind contacted me because he had some crystal that came from San Francisco. It was an amber/cream soda colored crystal and smelled like safrole. I got a little bit of it, and as a result never really tried higher doses of it. By the time I knew I wanted more, it was gone. But I remember being on the front row of a show and almost puking as I came up, and then just being so happy on the car ride home from Austin.  I also remember doing it one other time, at a beach. The thing that I noticed most about that stuff was that it never made me sick the week after I used it like the other Meh product did. The 2014 MDMA was probably the best stuff I had since 2005.


----------



## Jmoda

Do most people not get music effects on MehDMA? I feel like no matter how "good" or "bad" a batch of high quality stuff, music is one thing that remains absolutely amazing and sounds massive.


----------



## indigoaura

DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8732 - Uber Eats, 8732
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




Isn't this the pill referenced in this article?


			Sci-Hub |  | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332


----------



## psy997

Jmoda said:


> Do most people not get music effects on MehDMA? I feel like no matter how "good" or "bad" a batch of high quality stuff, music is one thing that remains absolutely amazing and sounds massive.



On Meh I would rather silence, every time. I am a dancer, sober or on any drug, and on Meh not only does music not sound good, I don't want to listen to it, and I sure as fuck don't want to dance.


----------



## G_Chem

Well if reagents aren’t ever challenging...

Did a side by side of everything I got, noticed some patterns but overall I’d say inconclusive.  It seemed the better products overall had a more bluish indigo purple whereas the lesser potential meh batches were reddish/brownish/purplish/black.

And then I by accident found how to make them react blue..

When a drop of Marquis is placed onto a plate, and the absolute tiniest amount of product is sprinkled over top, I was able to fairly often replicate a blue to black Marquis reaction with almost all the batches.

The better batches were more “radiant blue” whereas the lesser batches would produce more of a reddish purple even at the smaller amounts or more of weak grey blue.

Not sure what to make of all this...

Maybe the old 90’s EZ Test Marquis had a weaker concentration or something which slowed the reaction? Maybe the pills were weaker (unlikely)?

The thing too is when done in this fashion to produce the blue reaction it started first and remained for quite awhile eventually going to bluish black, the old reaction was straight to black followed by blue.  So two different timelines.

While I feel this is the first time I could start to semi reliably see visual differences between batches, they were too slight IMO to be used by anyone to help determine product unless I can fine tune this somehow.

Long story short, I think this may be something.  I can tell you from now on when I do Marquis in new product I’ll be more weary if there’s a reddish/brownish hue to Marquis.

-GC


----------



## Jmoda

psy997 said:


> On Meh I would rather silence, every time. I am a dancer, sober or on any drug, and on Meh not only does music not sound good, I don't want to listen to it, and I sure as fuck don't want to dance.



That seems absolutely crazy to me. What would even be the point of rolling then ha.

I get the not dancing part, i much prefer to sit and enjoy music or the show vs running into the crowd (always feels like i would need a stim with it in order to get in that mood)


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

Concerning pupil dilation; I do not think this is a good way to judge between Meh and Magic. My pupils sometimes don't even dilate on LSD because I often times take it with a mild opioid like kratom. I've had pupil dilation on both Meh and Magic. Even without opioids it seems very random now. I don't just get this with these two substances. Various RCs known to dilate pupils sometimes don't do it to me. Sometimes they only dilate for parts of the trip/roll.

With opioids being so common now I wonder how many reports of pupils not dilating are just folks mixing MDMA with an opioid. Another thing to consider is Fent being such a common cut that it's showing up even in cocaine. I wouldn't doubt that some people are cutting crystal MDMA with Fent down the distribution line. These idiots are adding it to everything these days because they think it'll hook the customer faster.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8732 - Uber Eats, 8732
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't this the pill referenced in this article?
> 
> 
> Sci-Hub |  | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332



Same design, different colors.



HeadphonesandLSD said:


> With opioids being so common now I wonder how many reports of pupils not dilating are just folks mixing MDMA with an opioid. Another thing to consider is Fent being such a common cut that it's showing up even in cocaine. I wouldn't doubt that some people are cutting crystal MDMA with Fent down the distribution line. These idiots are adding it to everything these days because they think it'll hook the customer faster.



A fentanyl/MDMA mix has never shown up on ecstasydata.org before, and they can certainly detect it. I've never seen a confirmed case of fentanyl contaminated MDMA. There have certainly been rumors and some deaths where the combination was claimed, but I've never seen one with a lab confirmation.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Same design, different colors.



The study says greyish green, those pills look grey one side green the other, or am I missing something?

Also based on the low MDMA dose and synthesis byproducts I’m assuming if they are different still from the same manufacturer.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> The study says greyish green, those pills look grey one side green the other, or am I missing something?



Grey/Green vs Grey/Blue






I don't believe that the Korean paper ever mentioned the dose of MDMA in the pills. It would be interesting if someone with a academic looking email address could email the authors and ask, and someone could message the Swiss service and link the paper to see if the contaminates matched.


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> The study says greyish green, those pills look grey one side green the other, or am I missing something?
> 
> Also based on the low MDMA dose and synthesis byproducts I’m assuming if they are different still from the same manufacturer.
> 
> -GC



What I find interesting is that they can't identify those byproducts, they just know they are there.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> What I find interesting is that they can't identify those byproducts, they just know they are there.



Looking at the results, the Swiss harm reduction sources never break out what the synthesis byproducts are. Even Energy Control just lumps stuff as that sometimes.


----------



## psy997

Jmoda said:


> That seems absolutely crazy to me. What would even be the point of rolling then ha.
> 
> I get the not dancing part, i much prefer to sit and enjoy music or the show vs running into the crowd (always feels like i would need a stim with it in order to get in that mood)



Exactly. I pretty much refuse to take MDMA now because all it does is piss me off that it's such a bad experience. It's worse than sobriety for me.

I don't think you get the no dancing part, though. I dance no matter what. Meh makes me not want to dance. That is not normal for me. I don't need stimulants to dance.


----------



## Chonciceptor

indigoaura said:


> @Chonciceptor Would you clarify for some of the newer participants in the thread what your history of use was (you and your wife) when you first encountered MehDMA? As I recall, you had the same situation as me to some extent. Your dealer quit or you lost touch, and then you were cut off from a reliable supplier, right? As I recall, you had a long history of use but your wife was new to MDMA, yet you both felt the same MehDMA feelings when you tried the new product. Previously it had been all sexy and wonderful, and the new stuff was just meh.
> 
> This is a very concise and accurate description, by the way: "Absolutely no dilated pupils, no euphoria, no closeness, not really interested in music or conversation, just felt cold and high."


I absolutely will. I was first introduced to ecstasy in 1998. Ithere was a major rave in the state between 98 and 2002 , then I was there. Airport 1&2, market hall 1-4, transit, you name it. actually I think the last rave I went to was Zen Fest, which was out in the middle of nowhere between Ft. Worth and Waco. Anyhow, every roll I ever took, unless it was a bogus roll, was absolute magic, and I think I only got gipped twice. The last ecstasy tab I took was July 2002, it was pure magic, but for some reason, while rolling, I got a severe headache and quit taking ecstasy, period. I did do other party drugs until 2005 and quit all together. Fast forward to 2011 and I meet my wife. She has never taken drugs, ever! A year into our relationship, We moved in together and she expressed interest in trying some ecstasy, since I had so many stories of partying and great experiences, etc.
Sadly, at this point in my life, I have absolutely no connections that I would even seriously consider. So,  2013 and I’m at work with a buddy and he lets slip that he’s getting some molly and I was like, what is that? He asked if I had ever heard of ecstasy and I was like, ya, that used to be my DOC! I asked if he’d mind getting me a few pills. He laughed and said, “ No pills, pure crystals.” Needless to say, my mind was blown. We conversed on what he could get for how much so I asked for a gram. I got 1 solid rock that weighed just over 2 grams, it was the size of a large marble. It was one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen. Everything this guy got was like that. Let me also add that I have never ever been able to perform sexually on mdma from the past. So with that being said, for our first roll I acquired some cialis to see if that would help. We bought a scale and I measured out 125mg into veg caps until the rock was gone. We dosed at 9pm if memory serves.  At 930 my wife was laying on the floor asking me how it was possible that she was able to fly! That’s not a joke, it took me 20 minutes to convince her that she was laying face down on our floor. This was hands down the best roll I had ever taken, and the cialis worked and we were crazy sex demons all night long, for 2 straight years we had this kind of fun on mdma. Every. Single. Time. Low and behold, my friends hook up dropped off the face of the planet owing us $200 worth of product. So, being resourceful, I turn to the darknet. Ever since, we have gotten nothing but mehdma from all over the world. And each roll is basically the same story. Also, cialis and viagra does not work with this stuff. So that the long version of our experiences.


----------



## Chonciceptor

Let me also add that with the product that my friend would get, we would do 2 solid redoses and roll for seriously 12 hrs straight, I just couldn’t believe the quality.


----------



## G_Chem

Chonciceptor said:


> Let me also add that with the product that my friend would get, we would do 2 solid redoses and roll for seriously 12 hrs straight, I just couldn’t believe the quality.



Any visual, smell or taste differences? Is the product since then not big chunks?

-GC


----------



## Chonciceptor

We’ve gotten all shapes and sizes, no smell, visual, or taste differences at all, just quality of the roll itself.


----------



## indigoaura

Interesting. I just noticed the 2013/2014 parallel in @Chonciceptor's story too. 

@G_Chem What was going on with production around that time?

Chonciceptor and I were probably eating the same pills, as we were both in the same area and going to raves at the same time. There were some amazing pills going around from 2000-2004. Chonciceptor, do you remember any of the presses you had from that time?

This is the kind of story that really cements the idea that it is a product issue. Would Chonciceptor and his wife really have both lost the magic at the exact same time, and at the exact same moment the product changed? They had no reason to believe the DW product would be subpar, so it doesn't make sense that it was mental suggestion either. I'm sure they both expected to have the same experience that they had before.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> Interesting. I just noticed the 2013/2014 parallel in @Chonciceptor's story too.
> 
> @G_Chem What was going on with production around that time?
> 
> Chonciceptor and I were probably eating the same pills, as we were both in the same area and going to raves at the same time. There were some amazing pills going around from 2000-2004. Chonciceptor, do you remember any of the presses you had from that time?
> 
> This is the kind of story that really cements the idea that it is a product issue. Would Chonciceptor and his wife really have both lost the magic at the exact same time, and at the exact same moment the product changed? They had no reason to believe the DW product would be subpar, so it doesn't make sense that it was mental suggestion either. I'm sure they both expected to have the same experience that they had before.



I agree, when you see stories like this that coincide so well it’s impossible to not start asking questions..  We’ve seen lots of similarities between stories throughout our time here, too many to just throw out.


That’s a good question regarding production at this time..  Looking back it appears this is when production of MDMA really started back up in full gear.  I’m thinking it was maybe Dutch product of origin but of much higher purity than as the years have gone by.

I remember people loving some of the early Dutch products, but like anything once you’ve got a market cornered usually quality drops.  I’m sure even in those days therecwas “meh” product but probably less likely than today.

That’s my best guess...

So from around 07-13 my area had a local ecstasy pressing crew that is still today known as being the best domestic MDMA this country has ever seen.  I’ve talked about them here before.

Around 12-13, lots of high quality MDMA shard began flooding the area and although the “synthesis” was better (that’s how we used to describe the differences in batches, called it a different “synth”) with the local presses, the price and potency of the shard outshined the local presses which at this point were kinda old news (people like new and exciting things.)

This shard was said to all be coming in from the Netherlands at that time.  But based on the large amounts of beautiful shard MDA I kinda wonder if that was false since MDA is a Canadian product.

Whatever the case this influx of good shard wiped out the local production, and as far as I can see it hasn’t come back.  

If I were to rate the years in my area based on quality and availability..  5 out of 5, 5 being best.

05 - 3
06 - 3
07 - 3
08 - 2
09 - 1
10 - 1
11 - 3
12 - 4
13 - 5
14 - 5
15 - 4
16 - 5
17 - 5
18 - 3
19 - 4
20 - 1

-GC


----------



## Chonciceptor

Absolutely I do, the first roll I ever took were called green marshmallows, then I had double stacked blue monsters, white Mitsubishi’s, the best roll I had ever taken at the time though was Double Stacked Orange Tulips, they supposedly had mescaline, but I will say they had some crazy visuals, that’s for sure, I’m having trouble remembering any other names from that time though! Also rolls royces


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Ever the optimist, I had another go on the meh cola stuff last night.

Set and setting were the same as usual - me on my own in the kitchen. However, there was one significant difference this time - I wasnt absolutely hammered on vodka.

So I was curious to see if this would positively affect the quality of the 'roll'. 

20:30 - Dissolved 150mg in water and necked it on an empty stomach.
21:15 - Started to feel it coming on so went for a shower. I love coming up in the shower.
21:30 - kicking in nicely. Actually had some pupil dilation, not massive but significant. Nystagmus was increasing in intensity along with some bruxism and slight nausea. "Perhaps this will be it" I thought to myself. Redosed another 80mg.

But alas, as with all meh product, it promises so much yet fails to deliver.

The come up was nice (as usual) but by 23:00 I was starting to face plant the kitchen table. At some point I redosed another 80mg which had absolutely no effect whatsoever. I should know by now that redoses do fuck all with meh product, I just can't help myself.

Sometime around midnight I was away with the fairies.

If anything, the lack of booze probably increased the waking duration by about an hour, but did bugger all for the quality.

I've just got to accept that meh is meh and there's fuck all you can do about it...


----------



## indigoaura

@F.U.B.A.R. 

I also like coming up in the shower. Get some of that eucalyptus shower gel. Top notch!

You did one of the things I have thought about, which is to dissolve it in water first. I see that had no effect. Unfortunate.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> @F.U.B.A.R.
> 
> I also like coming up in the shower. Get some of that eucalyptus shower gel. Top notch!
> 
> You did one of the things I have thought about, which is to dissolve it in water first. I see that had no effect. Unfortunate.



Ooh, I like the sound of that eucalyptus shower gel, gonna score me some.

But yeh, I started dissolving it in water a while back in an attempt to get it to kick in quicker. I always used to bomb it but I dont think there's much difference really. I can feel the good stuff in 15 minutes - it's like a sudden shift in consciousness and i know it's going to be a good ride. But the meh stuff takes anything up to an hour to feel the first alerts. If it was in a hard pressed pill it would probably be a good 90 minutes before anything happened.


----------



## indigoaura

> But yeh, I started dissolving it in water a while back in an attempt to get it to kick in quicker. I always used to bomb it but I dont think there's much difference really. I can feel the good stuff in 15 minutes - it's like a sudden shift in consciousness and i know it's going to be a good ride. But the meh stuff takes anything up to an hour to feel the first alerts. If it was in a hard pressed pill it would probably be a good 90 minutes before anything happened.



I used to always come up about 15-20 minutes in. By the 30 minute point, I was feeling it intensely. If I did not, then I knew something was wrong with the pills. With the meh, I agree, it is more like 45 min-60 min before the come up really occurs.


----------



## anon65535

Thought I would share the residal gunk dried out for a long time that I had cleaned up with acetone and IPA. You can see the original stuff back somewhere in the page 50 or so. I can link it later. But since a picture is worth a thousand words, here's 2000 words. One not zoomed, the other zoomed. It's in a mason jar obviously.


----------



## anon65535

In terms of the comeup, for me it kind of depended on my stomach. Definitely feel the comeup within 30m or so. Somtimes it was longer though. I'll have to take note next time.


----------



## hendrix1969

Unfortunately I think it's a mixture of rose tinted glasses and how healthy our receptors are.

We're seeing the same from mephedrone veterans such as myself. I can never reach the high I used to achieve but the tests are coming back as pure product so cant argue really.

Move onto another drug and start working on those receptors :D. I've been using 2cb.  Highly recommend


----------



## indigoaura

@anon65535 Is that dark gunk the MDMA, or what was left behind after you purified?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

hendrix1969 said:


> Unfortunately I think it's a mixture of rose tinted glasses and how healthy our receptors are.
> 
> We're seeing the same from mephedrone veterans such as myself. I can never reach the high I used to achieve but the tests are coming back as pure product so cant argue really.
> 
> Move onto another drug and start working on those receptors :D. I've been using 2cb.  Highly recommend



No it ain't. My rose tinted specs are blown off my face when I get genuinely good product...


----------



## anon65535

indigoaura said:


> @anon65535 Is that dark gunk the MDMA, or what was left behind after you purified?



That's what was left behind after I purified.


----------



## indigoaura

anon65535 said:


> That's what was left behind after I purified.



This has been a long thread, and I don't quite remember your experience with the purified product. Was it still meh, or had it become more magical after being cleaned? Would you be open to having the "gunk" tested?


----------



## anon65535

indigoaura said:


> This has been a long thread, and I don't quite remember your experience with the purified product. Was it still meh, or had it become more magical after being cleaned? Would you be open to having the "gunk" tested?



Been a bit since I rolled but I remember it being better than prewash. I almost always mixed with MDA though because I prefer it. Next time I have a chance to roll I'll give a report. Unfortunately I washed them out after I took the picture but I have more unwashed, I could potentially wash that.

Whatever it was, it was definitely the source of the smell. My guess is it was MDP2P and and some other stuff. This was the stuff that got washed by the aceton and IPA and went through the filter.


----------



## indigoaura

I think this is relevant to this thread, and I am curious for other people's comments.

Last night I smoked some weed for the first time in about 15 years. I had been avoiding it because of the phytoestrogen properties.

Anyway, I smoked some Indica. 

I got more music enhancement from being minimally stoned than I have gotten off of any MehDMA. The songs took on that 4 dimensional quality that used to be common on MDMA. Typically, I just hear the surface of the song, but MDMA used to open up all of the background sounds, drums, backing vocals etc. The weed did the same thing. 

Some of the songs that I played last night were the same songs I played the last time I rolled, and they sounded so much more enhanced and textured with the weed. They basically just sounded normal with the MehDMA.

For those of you who still have access to "magic" MDMA experiences...do you find the music enhancement from MDMA to be superior or similar to the music enhancement from weed? If your MDMA was not producing music enhancement to the same degree as weed, would you question your MDMA?


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> I think this is relevant to this thread, and I am curious for other people's comments.
> 
> Last night I smoked some weed for the first time in about 15 years. I had been avoiding it because of the phytoestrogen properties.
> 
> Anyway, I smoked some Indica.
> 
> I got more music enhancement from being minimally stoned than I have gotten off of any MehDMA. The songs took on that 4 dimensional quality that used to be common on MDMA. Typically, I just hear the surface of the song, but MDMA used to open up all of the background sounds, drums, backing vocals etc. The weed did the same thing.
> 
> Some of the songs that I played last night were the same songs I played the last time I rolled, and they sounded so much more enhanced and textured with the weed. They basically just sounded normal with the MehDMA.
> 
> For those of you who still have access to "magic" MDMA experiences...do you find the music enhancement from MDMA to be superior or similar to the music enhancement from weed? If your MDMA was not producing music enhancement to the same degree as weed, would you question your MDMA?



So I know that feeling you speak of with cannabis and it was one of the main reasons I started using cannabis asa kid.  Getting really high and listening to some older classic rock was amazing lol.

That said after 15+yrs of daily use I barely get that effect anymore...

But comparing to back then, yea MDMA was pretty on par with that feeling.  I often can get a little antsy too if I’m at a good festival and amazing music is playing in the background, my desire to dance sometimes can’t be quelled easily.

You should start smoking more often to see if it has any effect when you try again.  I’ve wondered if regular cannabis users get better more consistent effects than non users.  It likely causes neurogenesis and protects against toxicity during.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Cannabis music enchantment on those lethal 25% thc sativa strains is like a full blown LSD trip at points visuals sounds insanely good. But i find a very good mdma roll is still a bit above but i usually smoke cannabis on mdma as soon it kicks in to take it to another level where i just melt into the couch and feel at one with the universe.


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> Cannabis music enchantment on those lethal 25% thc sativa strains is like a full blown LSD trip at points visuals sounds insanely good. But i find a very good mdma roll is still a bit above but i usually smoke cannabis on mdma as soon it kicks in to take it to another level where i just melt into the couch and feel at one with the universe.



I always felt the same way about E being "above" weed in terms of, well, everything. I used to smoke quite a bit from 2000-2003. I was in a relationship at the time with a pothead. He smoked all day every day. So, I would come home from work and usually be handed a bong right when I walked in the door. At that time, I thought the musical effects of MDMA dwarfed the musical effects of weed. MDMA was the first drug I ever tried, I had never even been drunk before. So, when I tried weed for the first time after having already tried MDMA, I was not impressed at all. Weed seemed like a joke.

I was surprised this time around at just how enhanced the music was. Yes, there was a psychoactive element. My mind created worlds to coincide with each song, and each sound was associated with some scenery or person within the world. It was awesome. 

@G_Chem Yeah, I was wondering if the weed will have any effect on my MDMA experiences. I will keep ya'll posted!


----------



## TripSitterNZ

i find weed brings out a visual aspect of mdma especially CEVs. Relaxs you alot on the stimulation of the body high and jaw teeth grinding. Your lungs have so much power to smoke while on the mdma aswell so you can just take hit after hit makes the comedown alot easier. Really mixes together amazing. Weed without tolerance and these modern day strains will send you to outer space now. 

Then you have edibles which damm the music is on another level compared to smoking and imo with no tolerance and a strong one will blow you away harder than like 3.5 g of cubensis. But i still feel like mdma especially for certain music genres tops it. Like fast beat psy tracks or drum and bass.


----------



## G_Chem

I’ve actually only rolled one time without cannabis (for the most part).  I had tried to quit for awhile but was still smoking like a hit a week.  I remember the roll actually not being as good even though it was some very good MDMA/MDA mix pills.  Then when I got home I took one baby little rip and was getting like dissociated from my body, it wasn’t pleasant.

All my other experiences I’ve been high on cannabis, in fact I’m always high on cannabis lol.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

This is so interesting. I don't think I have ever mixed weed and MDMA.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> People who came into Houston from out of town used to comment on the different quality of our ecstasy back in the 00s. They said it was more intense than what they found elsewhere. I wonder if this batch you have is the same as what was going around Houston. It sounds the same from your description. Do you think there is any chance this batch you have is a leuckart synth?


Again as I've said several times we need to find out how meh is being made.we need to know route specific impurities. is it one method or several.
Until answered we just go round and round on this "what's the cause" merry-go-round


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Indigo, I just thought too if this batch is Leuckart and I send it in, I could ask the lab to look for n-formyl-MDMA.  This should be there in quantities hopefully visible to their analysis, and is unique to Leuckart.
> 
> One study for PMMA showed that there was 15-20% n-formyl-pmma when made via Leuckart.  Extrapolating for MDMA, and it’s reasonable to think if it’s there and there looking well enough they’d find it.
> 
> -GC


If sending anything for testing please ask for them to try and find out route specific information.this is far more valuable than finding out if it's testing positive for mdma


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> If sending anything for testing please ask for them to try and find out route specific information.this is far more valuable than finding out if it's testing positive for mdma



I did  asked them to look for Leuckart impurities than further specified n-formyl intermediates.  I agree we need to push the labs to look a bit deeper and even give them direction.

-GC


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> I did  asked them to look for Leuckart impurities than further specified n-formyl intermediates.  I agree we need to push the labs to look a bit deeper and even give them direction.
> 
> -GC


Route specific impurities for all meh samples is needed.we also need to know if it's another method besides just leuckart.was this a meh or magic sample?


----------



## indigoaura

@draculic acid69 The meh samples that I sent in to Drugs Data previously were all supposed to have been made from safrole. The one that was tested once with IEC and I have to send off to IEC again for more in depth testing is also supposedly made from safrole with al hg reaction.


----------



## Simosom

For me music enhancement on weed is superior from mehdma. 
But weed gives me huge anxiety, when combined with meh it gets only worse. 
I can smoke weed after 5h of rolling, when my mind is tired. 
Music sounds great on weed.


----------



## somnilicious

I live in Florida and have never experienced mdma effects from either Molly or pressed pills Since my millennium days.. I used to roll a lot around 99-01 and then started to lose the magic. I then later tried Molly a couple of times around 09, which was later confirmed as mephedrone and methylone. I then tried Molly and pressed pills a few times recently and the effects while euphoric a couple of times were more akin to methamp. I had a few other rolls that were exactly as you guys describe the mehdma. I must admit that I didn't test my pills because it was a spur of the moment decision. Also Florida is now notorious for bunk rolls. Some were Paul Frank's, which are known to be constantly iffy but back in 99-01 we never had to test the pills. The only bunk pills I ever heard of were dxm four leaf clovers and all my pills were shown on testing sites as mdma, mda and the very rare mdea or a mix of the aforementioned. Maybe I lost the magic for good, though I suspect the long break would have fixed that problem. Maybe all my pills and Molly were research chems. I should have tested but my past experiences never necessitated doing so. I will now be testing. I must say that I haven't gotten any of the notorious dutch pills that were flooding Orlando back in my heyday. I don't know if this adds anything other than that the mdma, x scene has gone to shit in Florida. I mist also admit that I was almost initially fooled by the mephedrone and methylone but retrospect caused me to question the dealer, who later admitted the true identity back in 09. I desperately want to roll and have been searching out the dutch pills or confirmed quality from the area but they are scarce.


----------



## Jmoda

indigoaura said:


> I think this is relevant to this thread, and I am curious for other people's comments.
> 
> Last night I smoked some weed for the first time in about 15 years. I had been avoiding it because of the phytoestrogen properties.
> 
> Anyway, I smoked some Indica.
> 
> I got more music enhancement from being minimally stoned than I have gotten off of any MehDMA. The songs took on that 4 dimensional quality that used to be common on MDMA. Typically, I just hear the surface of the song, but MDMA used to open up all of the background sounds, drums, backing vocals etc. The weed did the same thing.
> 
> Some of the songs that I played last night were the same songs I played the last time I rolled, and they sounded so much more enhanced and textured with the weed. They basically just sounded normal with the MehDMA.
> 
> For those of you who still have access to "magic" MDMA experiences...do you find the music enhancement from MDMA to be superior or similar to the music enhancement from weed? If your MDMA was not producing music enhancement to the same degree as weed, would you question your MDMA?



This I do not understand, at all. Even what I consider to be mehdma, music enhancement is still through the roof and certainly beats any weed enhancement (which is great in its own right). But mdma (and mehdma) enhancement is just next level. You feel it in your soul and there is just this one bass frequency that hits extra magically while the roof feels like it could burst off.

Meh for me just sucks in duration. 1.5 hours until peak and then dropoff at 2 hour mark and then super noticeable dropoff.

If meh does not even give music enhacement, then I can understand why this is such a problem


----------



## somnilicious

G_Chem said:


> Well if reagents aren’t ever challenging...
> 
> Did a side by side of everything I got, noticed some patterns but overall I’d say inconclusive.  It seemed the better products overall had a more bluish indigo purple whereas the lesser potential meh batches were reddish/brownish/purplish/black.
> 
> And then I by accident found how to make them react blue..
> 
> When a drop of Marquis is placed onto a plate, and the absolute tiniest amount of product is sprinkled over top, I was able to fairly often replicate a blue to black Marquis reaction with almost all the batches.
> 
> The better batches were more “radiant blue” whereas the lesser batches would produce more of a reddish purple even at the smaller amounts or more of weak grey blue.
> 
> Not sure what to make of all this...
> 
> Maybe the old 90’s EZ Test Marquis had a weaker concentration or something which slowed the reaction? Maybe the pills were weaker (unlikely)?
> 
> The thing too is when done in this fashion to produce the blue reaction it started first and remained for quite awhile eventually going to bluish black, the old reaction was straight to black followed by blue.  So two different timelines.
> 
> While I feel this is the first time I could start to semi reliably see visual differences between batches, they were too slight IMO to be used by anyone to help determine product unless I can fine tune this somehow.
> 
> Long story short, I think this may be something.  I can tell you from now on when I do Marquis in new product I’ll be more weary if there’s a reddish/brownish hue to Marquis.
> 
> -GC



Maybe the brownish red indicates methamp and the smaller samples didn't detect it but also gave weaker mdma results due to the lower quantity used to fool test kits but this might not a count for shorter duration, unless it is just the low dose mdma wearing off and then the methamp taking over nor the feeling tired shortly after.


----------



## G_Chem

Jmoda said:


> This I do not understand, at all. Even what I consider to be mehdma, music enhancement is still through the roof and certainly beats any weed enhancement (which is great in its own right). But mdma (and mehdma) enhancement is just next level. You feel it in your soul and there is just this one bass frequency that hits extra magically while the roof feels like it could burst off.
> 
> Meh for me just sucks in duration. 1.5 hours until peak and then dropoff at 2 hour mark and then super noticeable dropoff.
> 
> If meh does not even give music enhacement, then I can understand why this is such a problem



I know that feeling, get some good artists on an F1 system and watch as eyes roll into the back of heads.



somnilicious said:


> Maybe the brownish red indicates methamp and the smaller samples didn't detect it but also gave weaker mdma results due to the lower quantity used to fool test kits.



Methamphetamine goes a orange/brown coloration and is often evident a second before MDMA.  Having Reagent tested enough meth as well as a few mixed samples back in the day I’m fairly confident not that.  I should note those hues are slight, most would just say “it went purple/black” and be done but if you look close there’s differences.

That said I’m still lacking confidence reagents can tell anything.  People with meh need to Reagent test and report back on what they see.

-GC


----------



## somnilicious

G_Chem said:


> I know that feeling, get some good artists on an F1 system and watch as eyes roll into the back of heads.
> 
> 
> 
> Methamphetamine goes a orange/brown coloration and is often evident a second before MDMA.  Having Reagent tested enough meth as well as a few mixed samples back in the day I’m fairly confident not that.  I should note those hues are slight, most would just say “it went purple/black” and be done but if you look close there’s differences.
> 
> That said I’m still lacking confidence reagents can tell anything.  People with meh need to Reagent test and report back on what they see.
> 
> -GC



I so miss the late 90's scene in Florida. It was always dutch presses that reaked of that slight root bearish smell. OIA had huge busts all the time from Dutch or German nationals back then and Orlando was a hub then around 2006-08 I heard it just went to shit. I stopped going after Mayor Glenda Hood passed the rave ordinance that killed all the raves and after hours clubs. Home rolling was still fun until I lost the magic. Do you think such an occurrence would be permanent even after almost 20yrs? The mephedrone and methylone worked fine and was almost but just not quite the magic of mdma and had some different qaulities. I actually started around 98.


----------



## somnilicious

G_Chem said:


> I know that feeling, get some good artists on an F1 system and watch as eyes roll into the back of heads.
> 
> 
> 
> Methamphetamine goes a orange/brown coloration and is often evident a second before MDMA.  Having Reagent tested enough meth as well as a few mixed samples back in the day I’m fairly confident not that.  I should note those hues are slight, most would just say “it went purple/black” and be done but if you look close there’s differences.
> 
> That said I’m still lacking confidence reagents can tell anything.  People with meh need to Reagent test and report back on what they see.
> 
> -GC



Good rolls would have everyone's eyes dialated, fluttering around and music and light sticks would make peoples eyes flutter around and send them rolling into the backs of there heads, while hugging everyone and telling them how much they loved them. I must admit though that I did experience LTC around 2001 but nobody talked about it back then and I definitely over did it. All my friends made me feel terrible and equated my symptoms as Being akin to psychosomatic. It was horrible and ruined my life for years, which eventually led to an opiate and heroin addiction after clean living, supplements and exercise failed to abate the symptoms. I will now be testing my pills.


----------



## G_Chem

somnilicious said:


> I so miss the late 90's scene in Florida. It was always dutch presses that freaked of that slight root bearish smell. OIA had huge busts all the time back then and Orlando was a hub then around 2006-08 I heard it just went to shit. I stopped going after Mayor Glenda Hood passed the rave ordinance that killed all the raves and after hours clubs. Home rolling was still fun until I lost the magic. Do you think such an occurrence would be permanent even after almost 20yrs? The mephedrone and methylone worked fine and was almost but just not quite the magic of mdma and had some different qaulities. I actually started around 98.



Yea you guys are probably one of the best cases of the MDMA scene going from top quality to pure RC’s.  It’s sad cuz ya’ll truly had it so good in the 90’s and early 00’s from what I heard.

-GC


----------



## somnilicious

G_Chem said:


> Yea you guys are probably one of the best cases of the MDMA scene going from top quality to pure RC’s.  It’s sad cuz ya’ll truly had it so good in the 90’s and early 00’s from what I heard.
> 
> -GC



It was really an awesome, mind blowing time. Unfortunately I over did it because of abundance and lack of knowledge or proper use information. I had no idea how good we had it. Every experience was beyond awesome until it wasn't anymore but those around me were still having great experiences. I then went through 6mths-yr of he'll before I slowly slid into heavy marijuana use, alcohol usage and eventually oxycontin and heroin addiction. I didn't really find out about bluelight harm reduction till 2001 or so and by then it had turned into an informational and almost promotional forum towards opiate use on other drugs. They've really cleaned that up over the last three yrs.


Everyone in my high school did it. Jocks, honor students, skaters, heads and even the straight and narrow geeks. The school was flooded. All of Central Florida was flooded with e-pills. We had our own electro and funky breaks, breakbeats scene. A lot of the DJ's came from the 80's skating rink scene, which was almost like raves for kids and early teens....lol. It was Miami, Tampa, ebor city, Orlando, Tampa and Gainesville(UF). After hours clubs in almost every city and monthly huge rave events. Some in the woods in the middle of nowhere with huge setups and lights all in the trees. Crazy times.

The scene started in the late 80's, early 90's from the Houston connect and the music started from early freestyle music and we had the sickest breakdancers and liquid, pop and lock glow stick dancers. I was one of them. My dance crew club invasions were the best experiences of my life because we were the Kings of the after hours clubs. I got laid so many times just because of my dance skills....lol. Now it has become so much more difficult. I miss my rave honeys.


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> @draculic acid69 The meh samples that I sent in to Drugs Data previously were all supposed to have been made from safrole. The one that was tested once with IEC and I have to send off to IEC again for more in depth testing is also supposedly made from safrole with al hg reaction.


So IEC told you it was safrole or the hookup u got it from told u that?
If so then it gives more questions than it answers.we need more meh samples sent in and tested to find out if it's a route specific problem or not.anyway finding out how the meh was made is a step in the right direction to solving the mystery.the fact it wasn't pmk glycidate rules out a theory or two but one sample isn't enough to confirm it.


----------



## draculic acid69

I suppose finding out how the magic is being made also helps point us in the right direction too


----------



## G_Chem

If that sample was from Vash I please say we take that with a grain of salt..  Something was up with that guy and I honestly don’t trust anything he has said.



draculic acid69 said:


> I suppose finding out how the magic is being made also helps point us in the right direction too



This is something I have studied.  I can give the routes I’ve found via Hive and Vespiary posts which most reliably give the most “Magic” product.  I might of even at one point compiled posts to better prove my point but can’t remember now or care to look through my notes or past posts to see.

Bottom line..

Safrole to Isosafrole via KOH.  Isosafrole to MDP2P via performic.  Leuckart to MDA or MDMA. Or Al/Hg to MDMA.

That’s the most reliable way I’ve found.  O2 wacker produced ketone which often gave lackluster product once animated.  Benzoquinine wacker was a lot better but still not as clean of ketone compared to performic.

Leuckart was king in the 90’s and looking at a few Hive posts I saw once it began fading out, a few of the chemists there made product via thiscroute and claimed it “felt like the good ol 90’s product.”

Al/Hg is standard and can very well produce magic but apparently there’s fuck ups out there too.  If shitty ketone is used then shitty product will be aminated.

-GC


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> If that sample was from Vash I please say we take that with a grain of salt..  Something was up with that guy and I honestly don’t trust anything he has said.
> 
> 
> 
> This is something I have studied.  I can give the routes I’ve found via Hive and Vespiary posts which most reliably give the most “Magic” product.  I might of even at one point compiled posts to better prove my point but can’t remember now or care to look through my notes or past posts to see.
> 
> Bottom line..
> 
> Safrole to Isosafrole via KOH.  Isosafrole to MDP2P via performic.  Leuckart to MDA or MDMA. Or Al/Hg to MDMA.
> 
> That’s the most reliable way I’ve found.  O2 wacker produced ketone which often gave lackluster product once animated.  Benzoquinine wacker was a lot better but still not as clean of ketone compared to performic.
> 
> Leuckart was king in the 90’s and looking at a few Hive posts I saw once it began fading out, a few of the chemists there made product via thiscroute and claimed it “felt like the good ol 90’s product.”
> 
> Al/Hg is standard and can very well produce magic but apparently there’s fuck ups out there too.  If shitty ketone is used then shitty product will be aminated.
> 
> -GC


With the price of palladium chloride atm i'm sure we can rule the Wacker out as a happening method.100g cost $9000.$130 per gram.the pure metal is about$130 per gram.this means the Wacker oxidation will most probably not be used. Btw if any one wants pure gold, silver, platinum or palladium metal plate contact me via dm. I reckon most of the magic will be leuckart.


----------



## draculic acid69

Also I think we should (no offense to the guy) disregard vash's tests bcoz there was a fair amount of irrational unreliability that went with it sort of discredits his credibility (no offense vash) fuking spell check


----------



## somnilicious

G_Chem said:


> If that sample was from Vash I please say we take that with a grain of salt..  Something was up with that guy and I honestly don’t trust anything he has said.
> 
> 
> 
> This is something I have studied.  I can give the routes I’ve found via Hive and Vespiary posts which most reliably give the most “Magic” product.  I might of even at one point compiled posts to better prove my point but can’t remember now or care to look through my notes or past posts to see.
> 
> Bottom line..
> 
> Safrole to Isosafrole via KOH.  Isosafrole tdrao MDP2P via performic.  Leuckart to MDA or MDMA. Or Al/Hg to MDMA.
> 
> That’s the most reliable way I’ve found.  O2 wacker produced ketone which often gave lackluster product once animated.  Benzoquinine wacker was a lot better but still not as clean of ketone compared to performic.
> 
> Leuckart was king in the 90’s and looking at a few Hive posts I saw once it began fading out, a few of the chemists there made product via thiscroute and claimed it “felt like the good ol 90’s product.”
> 
> Al/Hg is standard and can very well produce magic but apparently there’s fuck ups out there too.  If shitty ketone is used then shitty product will be aminated.
> 
> -GC



I agree that 90's MDMA with that safrol, rootbeerish smell was always magic.


----------



## somnilicious

@draculic acid69 what do you mean by gold and platinum metal plate? Is it used for chemistry?


----------



## Low Earth Orbit

draculic acid69 said:


> With the price of palladium chloride atm i'm sure we can rule the Wacker out as a happening method.100g cost $9000.$130 per gram.the pure metal is about$130 per gram.this means the Wacker oxidation will most probably not be used. Btw if any one wants pure gold, silver, platinum or palladium metal plate contact me via dm. I reckon most of the magic will be leuckart.


I'm not so sure.
Catalytic converters for cars are being stolen in what has become an epidemic.
If you need a catalyst that is expensive, and you know that purchases of the material will be watched, what other options do you have?
And, on the other hand, if you steal many catalytic converters, who will you sell them to without raising suspicion?
This would also explain the connections to organized crime the article mentions.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they found a process where a car catalyst can be used as-is (in flow-through mode).
I'm not a chemist, so I don't know if it would be feasible, but I think this is a real possibility.

(I've been lurking in this thread for quite some time, but didn't post before)


----------



## indigoaura

To clarify, I have three meh samples that I have sent for testing. Two were sent to Drugs Data, one was sent to IEC. @draculic acid69, I was told by the supplier/seller that they were made from safrole. Obviously, I recognize that the seller could be lying. IEC is supposed to do a more advanced analysis when I re-send the sample a second time.


----------



## somnilicious

indigoaura said:


> To clarify, I have three meh samples that I have sent for testing. Two were sent to Drugs Data, one was sent to IEC. @draculic acid69, I was told by the supplier/seller that they were made from safrole. Obviously, I recognize that the seller could be lying. IEC is supposed to do a more advanced analysis when I re-send the sample a second time.



Did it have a distinct smell? Kinda like root beer, anise or possibly black licorice.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> To clarify, I have three meh samples that I have sent for testing. Two were sent to Drugs Data, one was sent to IEC. @draculic acid69, I was told by the supplier/seller that they were made from safrole. Obviously, I recognize that the seller could be lying. IEC is supposed to do a more advanced analysis when I re-send the sample a second time.



Ah my bad for some reason I thought you may have paid for one of Vashs samples to be tested.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> Ah my bad for some reason I thought you may have paid for one of Vashs samples to be tested.
> 
> -GC



No, the connection there is that I sent two of my samples to Vash to be tested. Then the results were lost. Then the results were mixed up. One of the samples I sent to him was posted in this thread, and it showed that weird additional peak. The two samples I sent to Vash were the same as the two I just sent to Drugs Data. Drugs Data was supposed to get me additional info on them, but I have not heard anything back from them in some time.


----------



## draculic acid69

somnilicious said:


> @draculic acid69 what do you mean by gold and platinum metal plate? Is it used for chemistry?


Yes it is.Jewelry chemistry investment.whatever u want it for.


----------



## draculic acid69

Low Earth Orbit said:


> I'm not so sure.
> Catalytic converters for cars are being stolen in what has become an epidemic.
> If you need a catalyst that is expensive, and you know that purchases of the material will be watched, what other options do you have?
> And, on the other hand, if you steal many catalytic converters, who will you sell them to without raising suspicion?
> This would also explain the connections to organized crime the article mentions.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they found a process where a car catalyst can be used as-is (in flow-through mode).
> I'm not a chemist, so I don't know if it would be feasible, but I think this is a real possibility.
> 
> (I've been lurking in this thread for quite some time, but didn't post before)


They get stolen bcoz there valuable. Anything valuable left on the street that can be detached with a spanner will be stolen.and no.no in-flow method exists.thats a perfect example of tweaker idea.a dirty car muffler with platinum in it does not make a good platinum catalyst.on industrial scale there are in flow method uses like this but not for these compounds.also the Wacker method uses palladium chloride not the palladium metal


----------



## draculic acid69

Low Earth Orbit said:


> I'm not a chemist, so I don't know if it would be feasible, but I think this is a real possibility.
> 
> (I've been lurking in this thread for quite some time, but didn't post before)



The possible part is getting the cat converters and turning it into a dogwoof woof meow.cat converter joke.  But u could Extract the pure metal and then use that to make palladium chloride for the Wacker.then use the platinum from it to make platinum dioxide catalyst to reduce the product after you've made the ketone. It's possible it just requires a process of cutting it open, cleaning it, extracting it and then synthing what u need out of it.doable if you're motivated enough


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> To clarify, I have three meh samples that I have sent for testing. Two were sent to Drugs Data, one was sent to IEC. @draculic acid69, I was told by the supplier/seller that they were made from safrole. Obviously, I recognize that the seller could be lying. IEC is supposed to do a more advanced analysis when I re-send the sample a second time.


It's just not reliable enough.need to wait for IEC results


----------



## draculic acid69

somnilicious said:


> Did it have a distinct smell? Kinda like root beer, anise or possibly black licorice.


Good question. Have we discussed Meh's smell yet? I know all the pills I used to get (all magic) always smelled strongly. I never got crystalline mdma so not sure about that stuffs smell


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

draculic acid69 said:


> Good question. Have we discussed Meh's smell yet? I know all the pills I used to get (all magic) always smelled strongly. I never got crystalline mdma so not sure about that stuffs smell



Very little to no smell in my experience.


----------



## draculic acid69

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Very little to no smell in my experience.


What about crystalline magic? Does it smell the same as good xtc pills?
Do all the shitty 250mg meh pills
smell like the good pills of yesteryear?


----------



## G_Chem

I’ve found almost consistently that safrole smell is an indication of good product.  Pretty much over the past 5yrs I’ve really been trying gauge with my nose as well.

I also had quite a few batches that were clear crystal with very good formation which smelled lightly of safrole when cracked/crushed up.

And to top this off, I have enough experience with safrole to know just how potent smelling the shit can be..

My theory is that safrole is such a potent smelling substance that it is very hard to clean out of the final product, even with high purity product.  I’d wager it only takes as little as a .05% amount of safrole in the end product (maybe even less) to produce a light smell when a fresh crystal is broken down.

Modern day practices actually help us in this regard because the forming of “shards” essentially stores the safrole smell until crushed open.  Much of the MDMA from before was powder and therefore had a better chance of losing the little smell it may have had if its high purity.

This latest batch though was the only one to smell off, so it’ll be curious to see the lab results.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

draculic acid69 said:


> What about crystalline magic? Does it smell the same as good xtc pills?
> Do all the shitty 250mg meh pills
> smell like the good pills of yesteryear?



No and no. But again that's only my experience over the last decade.


----------



## draculic acid69

So if everyone can add there opinion is smell an indicator of quality?


----------



## Jmoda

draculic acid69 said:


> So if everyone can add there opinion is smell an indicator of quality?



There is shit product with the smell. 

There is good product with the smell.


----------



## majk13

once the smell of locarice guaranteed quality, recently the worst mdma I had from Canada had exactly the same smell


----------



## Kaden_Nite

I haven't noticed that pungent, bittersweet scent of what I believe were sassafras remnants for years.

I started noticing a vitamin smell when the pills started getting dodgy and filled with BZP around 2010. Those pills were often waxy and the stamps were always rubbed off. That's when I first started buying RC cathinones online instead of the shit pills available at the time.

The first really good batch I had after the piperazine wave - similar in effect to the classics - smelled of licorice, which was new to me.

The crystal in modern caps (Australia) has a much more subtle smell, like it's been washed (it hasn't). I've noticed a similar smell from bags of 5-mapb and DOC.

Old thread, good post from phase_dancer: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/the-smell-of-mdma.134743/page-2


----------



## v5zS56tvk

what is the method of synth used here? 




Here is the full episode (Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, S2E06 A Cladestine Chemist's Tale), worth a watch for sure if you've never seen it:


----------



## G_Chem

v5zS56tvk said:


> what is the method of synth used here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the full episode (Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, S2E06 A Cladestine Chemist's Tale), worth a watch for sure if you've never seen it:



They are using the exact route I said gives magic or very likely to..  Safrole to Isosafrole, performic to MDP2P, then Al/Hg to MDMA.  It seems the performic/peracetic route gives the best ketone and is the most OTC.  Leuckart gives the dancy 90s MDMA where Al/Hg gives a cleaner feeling less stimulating but overall still magic product.

It seems problems occur when 02 wacker is used for ketone, or a hydrogenation is done to reduce to final amine.  The firstisnt really am issue today, the second is..

-GC


----------



## killafoo

I vape cannabis maybe once a month with a few glasses of wine and I get way more euphoria listening to music on this combination than I do on MDMA. I abused the shit of MDMA 20 years ago and stopped doing it about 2005. I started dabbling nown again in 2011 with pills, doing them maybe three or four times a year and some of them were great and felt pretty similar to pills from the early 2000s. Probably about 2013 pills became absolute shite, for me anyway. The euphoria and warmth I was experiencing from pills in late 2011/12 just completely vanished.  I've continued to take MDMA a few times a year and on a couple of occasions the stuff has been pretty nice (I'm looking for more than nice with MDMA though) but I would say 95% of the stuff has been completely lacking in what you'd expect from mdma.


----------



## Negi

I was discussing "mehDMA" with someone over on reddit and they mentioned once taking what felt like "meh" to them with a sizable group of people (5-10) who nearly all claimed to have a very enjoyable time but to the person didn't display any of the signs of "magic" MDMA. As I was glancing back through this thread I found that this seemed to have happened to others as well.



indigoaura said:


> I was at a party this past weekend. I had some of the local product with me. This is the product that is supposedly made in Mexico. It tested good, but on NYE, I found the effects lackluster.
> 
> One friend of mine, a middle aged male, took 160 mg to start and described it as "better than the 90s." However, I watched his pupils all night and never saw much dilation at all.



Has anyone else had this experience, where someone else takes a known "meh" batch and verbally confirms it is great while visual appearing to lack the classic symptoms of "magic" MDMA? I'm especially interested in if this was observed while you were on "mehDMA", while sober, or while on "magic" MDMA.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> I was discussing "mehDMA" with someone over on reddit and they mentioned once taking what felt like "meh" to them with a sizable group of people (5-10) who nearly all claimed to have a very enjoyable time but to the person didn't display any of the signs of "magic" MDMA. As I was glancing back through this thread I found that this seemed to have happened to others as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone else had this experience, where someone else takes a confirmed "meh" batch and verbally confirms it is great while visual appearing to lack the classic symptoms of "magic" MDMA? I'm especially interested in if this was observed while you were on "mehDMA", while sober, or while on "magic" MDMA.



This seems to be fairly common.  It’s not that it’s “bad” just that it’s not nearly as good as the good shit.

If your not borderline embarrassing yourself saying shit you shouldn’t say to strangers, if your pupils aren’t near eclipsing your iris, if you only roll for 2-3 hours before you feel like your coming down, then yea something’s different.

I think because the MDMA scene is ever changing compared to many other drug scenes because of the nature of the drug (magic loss, lots of people coming and going) it’s easy to forget what it was like.

I’m in my 30’s, I shouldn’t be out dancing the youngins cuz they’re MDMA doesn’t last more than 2 hours and they’re couch locked eyes rolling in the back of their heads.

I’ll finish with the time I spent a pretty penny to get a well talked about SoCal G6 press (piggy bank) sent to me.  Everyone on Reddit says G6 is the bomb blah blah.  It was the first time I’ve ever truly felt like I took mehDMA, I only took some as a booster dose to my initial roll (“magic”) and it actually killed the first dose leaving me feeling just neutral.

The two people I took some of the G6 with also said the same, it tested just fine on all 6 reagents and came from a very reliable source.

So yea my trust in what kids say about certain MDMA products has faltered a bit, I trust my people, my senses, and my reagents.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> If your not borderline embarrassing yourself saying shit you shouldn’t say to strangers, if your pupils aren’t near eclipsing your iris, if you only roll for 2-3 hours before you feel like your coming down, then yea something’s different.
> 
> I think because the MDMA scene is ever changing compared to many other drug scenes because of the nature of the drug (magic loss, lots of people coming and going) it’s easy to forget what it was like.
> 
> I’m in my 30’s, I shouldn’t be out dancing the youngins cuz they’re MDMA doesn’t last more than 2 hours and they’re couch locked eyes rolling in the back of their heads.



Are these observations of friends where you have a good idea of how frequently they are using, or more general observations of strangers? The absence of empathogenic effects and a shortened duration are some of the first signs of the loss of magic and the development of a tolerance. New users are especially likely to lack the knowledge of reasonable breaks and to abuse MDMA until they lose enough effects (and get nasty enough comedowns) to stop.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Are these observations of friends where you have a good idea of how frequently they are using, or more general observations of strangers? The absence of empathogenic effects and a shortened duration are some of the first signs of the loss of magic and the development of a tolerance. New users are especially likely to lack the knowledge of reasonable breaks and to abuse MDMA until they lose enough effects (and get nasty enough comedowns) to stop.



Well the two other people were my girl who’ve I’ve been with and rolling with since I was 19, and my brother who I’m also very familiar with.

My group of people is close friends and family all of which is rather versed, most have respected the substance including myself.  I can confidently say I roll just as hard as I did when I was a kid, zero magic loss.

We were also on all the same substances/batches.

And my observations regarding shortened duration, sleepy effect, etc isn’t what I personally experience (minus that G6) it’s what I hear all the time on Reddit.

I even asked on reddit once what people though MDMA duration to be and many stated 2-3 hours.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

earlier this year when i took half a pill so 120 mg of mdma at 8 pm and a quarter booster at the hour mark i was feeling strong effects at 30 mins peaked soon after the booster and the peak lasted til 12 am and noticeably felt the crash and comedown and by 2 - 2:30 am i would say thats when it was over. Hangover lasted a week of headache rough depression.

If people are acutally only getting 2-3 hours out of their mdma that is fucked up. 60 mg snorted will last me 2 hours due to roa and low dose but more intense than dropping.

a full 240-260 mg dose if i take it at once will have me going for 8 hours.


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> I even asked on reddit once what people though MDMA duration to be and many stated 2-3 hours.



Here's something highly relevant, a MDMA researcher actually had a poll on reddit about this: 




What do you consider the end of a roll? from
      MDMA






I should note that the timeline in the image comes from a 2000 scientific paper where participants were given a dose of 125mg (that sci-hub is unfortunately failing to acquire at the moment).


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Here's something highly relevant, a MDMA researcher actually had a poll on reddit about this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/g1fxs9
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I should note that the timeline in the image comes from a 2000 scientific paper (that sci-hub is unfortunately failing to acquire at the moment).



So in that poll most people are voting B or C (3-4 hours) as the “end of the roll” yet the timeline graph obviously shows 25% effects roughly still at 4 hours finally dropping to baseline at 6 hours much more in line with what it should be.

If anything that thread further proves me point, what many users say is the end of the roll doesn’t compute with the data.

IMO a roll ends 5-6 hours post dosing.  I can’t understand based on both my own experiences and others around me how anyone could say they’re completely done 2-4 hours after.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> If anything that thread further proves me point, what many users say is the end of the roll doesn’t compute with the data.
> 
> IMO a roll ends 5-6 hours post dosing. I can’t understand based on both my own experiences and others around me how anyone could say they’re completely done 2-4 hours after.



I think it's more of a terminology issue. What the poll is showing is that many people feel that they don't have to be back to 100% baseline for them to consider the "roll" part of the MDMA experience to be over. They only consider the peak effects to be the "roll". I often see the gradual return to baseline called the "comedown" after the roll, which is pretty confusing as the same label is used for "suicide Tuesday" and other days later after effects.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

a roll for me is the constant waves that keep coming back after the peak dying down each time they come back in intensity and length til im back to baseline.


----------



## Negi

This got me curious so I looked up some scientific papers. Starting with a MAPS overview paper:



> Onset of MDMA effects occurs 30 to 60 minutes after administration (Cami et al. 2000; Mas et al. 1999), peak effects appear 75 to 120 minutes post-drug (Liechti et al. 2001b; Tancer and Johanson 2003), and duration of effects lasts from three to six hours (Harris et al. 2002; Liechti et al. 2001a; Vollenweider et al. 1998a), with most effects returning to baseline or near-baseline levels six hours after drug administration.



Then looking at some of the citations it had (and other work from the same researchers).

From Farré _et a_l 2004






From Tancer and Johanson 2003






How the graphs were made:



> Visual  analog  scales(VAS). The VAS consists of a series of seven horizontal 100-mm lines, each labeled with an adjective (stimulated, high, anxious, sedated, down, and hungry). Participants are instructed to place a mark on each line indicating how they feel at the moment from ‘not at all’ to ‘extremely’.


----------



## psy997

TripSitterNZ said:


> 60 mg snorted will last me 2 hours due to roa and low dose but more intense than dropping.



I've said it before, but even with insufflation, I get a nice 3hr peak with good MDMA. It doesn't actually reduce the duration too much for me.



G_Chem said:


> IMO a roll ends 5-6 hours post dosing. I can’t understand based on both my own experiences and others around me how anyone could say they’re completely done 2-4 hours after.



This. Anytime I've ever had good MDMA, the peak has been at least three hours, if not four, and I'm still feeling amazing at 6hrs after dosing, at which point i begin to comedown for the next 3-4hrs.

MDMA is not supposed to last only a few hours. The first time I ever noticed something was up with the MDMA I was taking, it was because of duration. I told my supplier, and he scoffed at my concern, considering that he had tested it.


----------



## Negi

psy997 said:


> This. Anytime I've ever had good MDMA, the peak has been at least three hours, if not four, and I'm still feeling amazing at 6hrs after dosing, at which point i begin to comedown for the next 3-4hrs.



What dose would you take for that, and do you normally have a redose?


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> This got me curious so I looked up some scientific papers. Starting with a MAPS overview paper:
> 
> 
> 
> Then looking at some of the citations it had (and other work from the same researchers).
> 
> From Farré _et a_l 2004
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Tancer and Johanson 2003
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the graphs were made:



Any idea on the dosages used in the first picture of graphs?

Notice in your second how 75mg baselines at 4 hours, 110mg 5 hours and 145mg 6 hours.  Very much in line with what I experience.

I personally always do the 120mg plus 40mg booster 60-90mins later deal, so now it makes sense why when looking at the graphs I could easily have a solid 5-6 hour experience plus a few hours residual.

Redosing does bring about more of the MDA metabolite too which adds even more duration compared to a single dose.  Obviously too much on a redose or waiting too late isn’t a good thing with increased neurotoxicity but a small booster doesn’t seem to be an issue from what I’ve seen.

-GC


----------



## pkt

I feel the same way, despite access to pills that test positive as pure mdma and contain up to 250mg MDMA, its just not the same. I stopped doing mdma for years so it cant be the tolerance, i can do 250mg of pure crystal MDMA and i dont get the same effects i used to get from pills that according to pillreports contained between 80 and 120mg mdma, modern day MDMA just is not the same.....i prefer MDA because i feel like it gives me the same experience as it gave me 10 years ago. Something has changed in the chemistry.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

All the mdma i have done in the last few years has been dutch and its still really good. Smugglers bring in large amounts usually connected to the Chinese triads that operate here and then rich uni teens bringing in kg amounts through the darknet mail. 

Usually its champagne or brown sometimes you get somebody who has done a proper acetone wash on it when it arrives here and its a nice white fluffy crystals very potent 100 mg is enough for a good roll. Brown stuff or any colored is usually quite a bit of mdp2p oil left over in it starting materials but still gives solid rolls. 

Black mdma i avoid this always and see the reviews people give it its either potent or complete trash and tests for very low purity on mdma tests. No idea what sort of cuts or toxic shit is in the black mdma but it just looks nasty like your burnt your food in a oven overcooking it. 


Since even modern dutch mdma is giving me magic effects and proper duration it raises the question on what is truly dutch mdma or just your dealer lying. But pretty much all worldwide mdma should be dutch since theres tons and tons of it. What labs are the ones selling subpar products?. Hollands organised crime is a very dangerous underworld and ruthless murders and torture chambers all vying for control. Dutch police shut down 26 drug labs the other month after cracking those criminal encrypted phone network. 

MDA is alot of fun i preferred pills that had mda and mdma together for the geometric visuals that are quite vivid later into the roll. But MDA is harder to find now. 

I feel sad for the people who are getting 2-3 hour duration total at that point its not even worth the hangover. 

Australian made mdma in early and mid 2000's was really fucking good and some insane pills coming out of labs in Sydney.


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> Any idea on the dosages used in the first picture of graphs?



The first set of graphs is 100mg.



G_Chem said:


> Notice in your second how 75mg baselines at 4 hours, 110mg 5 hours and 145mg 6 hours. Very much in line with what I experience.
> 
> I personally always do the 120mg plus 40mg booster 60-90mins later deal, so now it makes sense why when looking at the graphs I could easily have a solid 5-6 hour experience plus a few hours residual.



How long is your peak during that experience? Like I said, the poll shows that most people on reddit at least are only counting the more impressive parts of the peak as the duration of the "roll". When they say they have had a 2-3 3-4 hour "roll", it matches up with the duration of the peak experience from the MAPS paper and the 2000's era research it cites.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> The first set of graphs is 100mg.
> 
> 
> 
> How long is your peak during that experience? Like I said, the poll shows that most people on reddit at least are only counting the more impressive parts of the peak as the duration of the "roll". When they say they have had a 2-3 hour "roll", it matches up with the duration of the peak experience from the MAPS paper and the 2000's era research it cites.



About 4 hours, also I interpret that poll post differently.  He simply asked when people thought they’re roll was finished and gave hour options, he then added the graph later for context.  It’s a pretty vague question I’ll admit but then again no one I know considers the end of the peak to be the end of the roll and definitely not 2-3 hours after.

This graph on Erowid describes my experience perfectly at the 1.5mg/kg dose.





__





						Erowid MDMA Vault : Effects
					

Information about the mental and physical effects of MDMA.



					erowid.org
				




At 4 hours the effects are still the same as hour 1, and baseline comes around 8 hours.  I’ve had really good batches where I dose at 7pm initial and still feeling good 3-4am.  Maybe not “peaking” but still residuals that make the night fun.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> I interpret that poll post differently. He simply asked when people thought they’re roll was finished and gave hour options, he then added the graph later for context.



No, the graph was the main part of the question. That's why the different options are labelled with the letter positions on the graph. Also looking at the graph again I misread it in my other posts (and also missed the giant numbers added onto it). Most people had the length of the roll as 3-4 hours (with more choosing 4) rather than 2-3 hours.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> I was discussing "mehDMA" with someone over on reddit and they mentioned once taking what felt like "meh" to them with a sizable group of people (5-10) who nearly all claimed to have a very enjoyable time but to the person didn't display any of the signs of "magic" MDMA. As I was glancing back through this thread I found that this seemed to have happened to others as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone else had this experience, where someone else takes a known "meh" batch and verbally confirms it is great while visual appearing to lack the classic symptoms of "magic" MDMA? I'm especially interested in if this was observed while you were on "mehDMA", while sober, or while on "magic" MDMA.



I have had a lot of experiences like this. I have observed it while sober myself, and I have observed it while on MehDMA. I have seen it in people who never did MDMA before, and in people with experience.


----------



## indigoaura

Also wanted to answer the question about smell. I have had meh product that smelled like safrole, and I have had meh product that had no smell at all.  As for magic, most of the pills I remember smelled pretty strong, but it is possible there were some that did not smell. At the time, if something did not smell, you did not buy it (because people believed that was an indication it was weak or fake).


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

TripSitterNZ said:


> a roll for me is the constant waves that keep coming back after the peak dying down each time they come back in intensity and length til im back to baseline.



And that is exactly what you DON'T get with MehDMA. It's just up and over. Hence the reported 2 hour durations. If I'm still awake after that time I consider it a bonus...


----------



## emkee_reinvented

TripSitterNZ said:


> MDA is alot of fun i preferred pills that had mda and mdma together for the geometric visuals that are quite vivid later into the roll. But MDA is harder to find now.



They should, in a certain ratio, be in pills way more often. great synergie when these 2 combined. A tripple pill with MDEA seems perfect.


----------



## ageingpartyfiend

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> And that is exactly what you DON'T get with MehDMA. It's just up and over. Hence the reported 2 hour durations. If I'm still awake after that time I consider it a bonus...


 
any notable difference in your (or anyone's?) comedown experience with meh and magic?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

ageingpartyfiend said:


> any notable difference in your (or anyone's?) comedown experience with meh and magic?



I dont really get comedowns at all. The most I get is a headache a day or two after - especially with the meh, but I think this is mainly down to the redoses I take in a vain attempt at enhancing the experience (never works). What I dont get with the meh is an afterglow...


----------



## ageingpartyfiend

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I dont really get comedowns at all. The most I get is a headache a day or two after - especially with the meh, but I think this is mainly down to the redoses I take in a vain attempt at enhancing the experience (never works). What I dont get with the meh is an afterglow...


 
insanely jealous tbh - I get a week on hell on earth (mentally and physically) after mdma and have done since my early 40's, meh or magic.

however that's not limited to mdma, I also suffer terribly after dopaminergics  too now, so I guess it's pretty much over for me, which is no bad thing considering I've had a (on and off) 35 year run 

that's why I just flat-out won't risk taking meh...


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

ageingpartyfiend said:


> insanely jealous tbh - I get a week on hell on earth (mentally and physically) after mdma and have done since my early 40's, meh or magic.
> 
> however that's not limited to mdma, I also suffer terribly after dopaminergics  too now, so I guess it's pretty much over for me, which is no bad thing considering I've had a (on and off) 35 year run
> 
> that's why I just flat-out won't risk taking meh...



Alcohol is your friend.  :D 

(I also very rarely get hangovers...)


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> So in that poll most people are voting B or C (3-4 hours) as the “end of the roll” yet the timeline graph obviously shows 25% effects roughly still at 4 hours finally dropping to baseline at 6 hours much more in line with what it should be.
> 
> If anything that thread further proves me point, what many users say is the end of the roll doesn’t compute with the data.
> 
> IMO a roll ends 5-6 hours post dosing.  I can’t understand based on both my own experiences and others around me how anyone could say they’re completely done 2-4 hours after.
> 
> -GC


I'd say 100mg magic easily gives a 4-6hr experience.2-3hrs is very short.not typical of a single mdma dose


----------



## psy997

Negi said:


> What dose would you take for that, and do you normally have a redose?


I don't normally redose. Dosage that leads to this duration is as follows (and includes pretty much every magic experience I've ever had)

Oral: 75-135mg | usual dose is 125mg | I've never gone higher than 135mg 
Insufflated: 50-65mg 
Rectal: 40-60mg 

Typing this out, I realize its possible my low dose rectal experiences didn't last this long, it's been 5 or so years, and I writhed alone on my bed in ecstacy the whole time, so don't have anything to remember duration by. But, I was extremely surprised the first time I came down at 3/4hrs, which was after my rectal use, so I'm inclined to think my rectal experiences weren't too freakishly short, whereas MehDMA is freakishly short every time.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> No, the graph was the main part of the question. That's why the different options are labelled with the letter positions on the graph. Also looking at the graph again I misread it in my other posts (and also missed the giant numbers added onto it). Most people had the length of the roll as 3-4 hours (with more choosing 4) rather than 2-3 hours.



Your right but now that I look at that poll it’s so poorly structured, he shouldn’t have labeled each letter with what he felt were the effects at each given hour, that pigeon holes the poller into essentially conforming to his view of the MDMA experience.

His use of the “mostly back to normal” at 4 hours despite 25% effects is clearly bias towards his particular view of the experience (which he may very well be versed with meh.) Extremely poorly done and frankly almost useless beyond the graph.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of the data out there supports my statements.  Despite my initial misinterpretation of the poll and it’s obviously bias nature, it’s still odd how the majority of pollers said 3-4 hours when clearly the graph shows it’s not done at 3-4 hours.

I’d like to finish with that I always felt there was 2 kinds of MDMA (both “magic”) which gave slightly varying durations and peaks.  I’ve talked about these before.  There’s product which hits 30-45min in comes up quick and then gives a nice solid plateau of a peak where suddenly 4 hours later you drop off quick (this may be what a lot of modern folks are getting idk) and then other product which acts more like the Erowid graph where you feel like your coming up up up for about an hour finally peaking at 90-120min, this stuff is wavier but longer lasting.  There’s strong residuals often lasting the whole night, which makes good for a night of dancing but not feeling stimmed.

Before anyone says, this product has been tested with 6 different reagents, it ain’t MDA.  It must come down to the small amount of impurities or maybe polymorphism we don’t quite understand.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> it’s still odd how the majority of pollers said 3-4 hours when clearly the graph shows it’s not done at 3-4 hours.



At 4 hours it might not be dead baseline, but the effects are less than 1/4 of what they were at the peak. That's a very noticeable decline to people and I can see why they might call it the "start of the comedown" rather than "the roll continuing".


----------



## somnilicious

Negi said:


> At 4 hours it might not be dead baseline, but the effects are less than 1/4 of what they were at the peak. That's a very noticeable decline to people and I can see why they might call it the "start of the comedown" rather than "the roll continuing".



I agree with a lot of your comments concerning subjective perception of the duration, especially this one. 

During my magic rave years 98-01 I mostly considered my rolls to last 4hrs. Even though I still felt effects 6-8hrs. The later portion I always considered the comedown. Usually at around 3.25-3.5hrs in I would have a moment when I could tell the effects had plateaued and I would be starting the decline. After the 4hr point the subjective euphoria would be so stark in contrast when compared to just an hour earlier that even though I was still experiencing the roll I would have subjectively considered the experience to be over. This had more to do with a changed subjective baseline of euphoria as perceived by myself than the actual experience. 

The psychological change of knowing that I was coming down would usually lead me to conclude that the pleasurable part of the experience was over after the 4hr mark even though I still very much felt the roll. It was a manifestation of my new baseline state of reference for euphoria that would have led me to state the 4hr mark as the end of my roll.

This could have been altered with a properly placed redose but if you had asked me if I rolled longer than 4hrs off a single dose my answer would have been no and even the change beginning around the 3hr point led me to conclude that the "magic" portion lasted 3-3.5hrs. Of course I would still be getting waves of euphoria and would be using all the tricks to enhance or extend the magic portion but I can easily see how some people state the duration of the roll as 3-4hrs simply because of the psychological shift in perception that happens when one begins the decline.

 It's as if the "magic" is shattered once the veil is slightly lifted and the stark contrast of the plateau and the decline lead one to perceive the experience as having mostly  concluded even they still very much feel the effects for several more hours. This shortened perception of the euphoric effects worsened over time as I would almost began to anticipate the comedown before it even began, which decreased the magic and perceived duration even more.


----------



## indigoaura

ageingpartyfiend said:


> any notable difference in your (or anyone's?) comedown experience with meh and magic?



Not sure if you mean the immediate comedown or the lingering effects the week after. As for the immediate comedown, Meh product does seem to drop off more suddenly and quickly. There is a huge urge to re-dose. To be fair, however, if I go back over my notes for "magic" MDMA and my early uses, I often had issues with short lasting product. I have definitely experienced short acting magic product with a steep drop off as well as longer acting (4-6 hours) magic product with a wavy drop off. The best pills were consistently longer acting, IMO.

"Magic" MDMA, for me, as always produced depression/high emotions/irrationality or what I like to call an "emo" state approximately 3-4 days after the roll. It would last a few days, and then usually by the one week point, you were back to normal. I remember talking to a co-worker about how great it felt the day that serotonin regulated and you felt back to normal. There was no sickness. There were no lingering physical issues. There was sometimes a great afterglow the day or two after the roll. 

MehDMA for me makes me nauseous and dizzy, usually starting on day 2 afterwards.  I have indigestion and a lot of belching  and general gastro discomfort for  3-4 days. There is no depression or emo state.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> At 4 hours it might not be dead baseline, but the effects are less than 1/4 of what they were at the peak. That's a very noticeable decline to people and I can see why they might call it the "start of the comedown" rather than "the roll continuing".



Are we not looking at the same data? I’m gonna be honest I’ve been fairly patient with you but you clearly just want to see what you want to see, that’s not science my friend.

Btw I’m still waiting on your response from like a year ago regarding MDMA neurotoxicity research and frequency of dosing, you tried writing it all off using the old rat to human dosage conversion argument when we look at cMax blood levels they are nearly the same for both rats and humans when it comes to MDMA.

You seem to have a very selective mind.

Looking at that graph YOU provided from Reddit one more time I clearly see at hour 4 effects are still in the 12-13 range peak effects where peak is 53 or so, very much 25% my friend.

The other you provided shows duration of 5 hours for 110mg and 6 hours for a single 145mg dose.  We see a correlation of increased duration with increased dosage, yet these mega dosed 200mg Dutch presses only last 2-4 max?

I think I’m done, it’s fairly obvious I’m speaking at a wall at this point.

-GC


----------



## ageingpartyfiend

indigoaura said:


> Not sure if you mean the immediate comedown or the lingering effects the week after.



many thanks - I was referring to the week or so after consumption as opposed to the initial comedown pre sleep  

EDIT - fyi I get terrible mental/physical week-long comedowns after meh (have stopped completely now, for quite a while now in fact)

as far as magic is concerned, it's been so long I can't remember really but definitely still suffered (although I remember wonderful aferglow from maybe the first dozen or so mdma sessions in the 90's)


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> Btw I’m still waiting on your response from like a year ago regarding MDMA neurotoxicity research and frequency of dosing, you tried writing it all off using the old rat to human dosage conversion argument when we look at cMax blood levels they are nearly the same for both rats and humans when it comes to MDMA.



I did reply to that post. I will certainly admit I wasn't a very active bluelighter at that point so it was a month after your last post in the thread.



G_Chem said:


> Looking at that graph YOU provided from Reddit one more time I clearly see at hour 4 effects are still in the 12-13 range peak effects where peak is 53 or so, very much 25% my friend.



Fair point, I was just eyeballing it and had 50 as the peak and 10 as point D. Still even if it is at 25% of the peak or slightly higher it's a significant (and noticeable) decline from the euphoric highs.



G_Chem said:


> The other you provided shows duration of 5 hours for 110mg and 6 hours for a single 145mg dose. We see a correlation of increased duration with increased dosage, yet these mega dosed 200mg Dutch presses only last 2-4 max?



Those graphs are a bit tricky, as they are only tracking how "stimulated" the participants felt. That doesn't exactly line up with the effects that people tie to the "roll", as most people still feel energetic and chatty even after the euphoria and heaviest empathogenic effects have worn off. I'm not sure how directly higher doses translate to longer rolls, as the conventional wisdom within the community seems to indicate that higher initial doses mainly lead to a stronger peak experience, and that you need a staggered redose (generally recommended at ~90 minutes) if you want to make your rolls longer. Back in the day, if you double dropped a pill how many extra hours of peaking would that give you compared to just taking a single pill?

As an example of graph complications, the dose curve on the Erowid MDMA Effects page is tracking the "Intoxication" participants felt at each time point. The same study asked three other measurement questions, all of which gave different looking graphs for answers.


----------



## Jmoda

indigoaura said:


> MehDMA for me makes me nauseous and dizzy, usually starting on day 2 afterwards.  I have indigestion and a lot of belching  and general gastro discomfort for  3-4 days. There is no depression or emo state.



This is particularly interesting to me because my gf for the past several years now seems to be getting this very symptom you describe of belching and gastro discomfort. Generally towards the very tail end, it will start for her and become a huge bother. It seems like the problem definitely worsens, as might be obvious, with redosing, but its gotten so bad to the point where she will be very hesistant to redose now.


----------



## indigoaura

Jmoda said:


> This is particularly interesting to me because my gf for the past several years now seems to be getting this very symptom you describe of belching and gastro discomfort. Generally towards the very tail end, it will start for her and become a huge bother. It seems like the problem definitely worsens, as might be obvious, with redosing, but its gotten so bad to the point where she will be very hesistant to redose now.



Jmoda, I agree. I have to set a firm limit on redoses or it becomes completely unmanageable. On a very low single dose, or a minimal re-dose, it is not as bad. I have felt for some time that there must be a contaminant that is tolerable in small doses but causes issues with higher doses. Never had this issue with MDMA from 2000-2005.


----------



## Jmoda

indigoaura said:


> Jmoda, I agree. I have to set a firm limit on redoses or it becomes completely unmanageable. On a very low single dose, or a minimal re-dose, it is not as bad. I have felt for some time that there must be a contaminant that is tolerable in small doses but causes issues with higher doses. Never had this issue with MDMA from 2000-2005.


 Have you ever tried acetone washing? Im wondering if that would be worthwhile and get rid of the contaminants you hypothesize...


----------



## Negi

Jmoda said:


> This is particularly interesting to me because my gf for the past several years now seems to be getting this very symptom you describe of belching and gastro discomfort. Generally towards the very tail end, it will start for her and become a huge bother. It seems like the problem definitely worsens, as might be obvious, with redosing, but its gotten so bad to the point where she will be very hesistant to redose now.



Is that with MDMA you consider to be "meh" or "magic"?


----------



## Dance Culture Vibe

Hi everyone,

I recently sat down with the Executive Director of Dancesafe for my new podcast to discuss the current state of MDMA, and I asked him specifically about the issue of Magic vs Meh!

I'm not sure I was able to properly articulate the strongest arguments/contentions in this thread, but the issue is now on their radar in a new and public way. Hopefully the episode will also serve to mainstream these conversations and introduce people to the specific physiological differences between the two alleged MDMA experiences.

I definitely don't want to spam but figure this is enough of a niche interest to the group that it would be OK to share it with the thread. Please let me know if I'm mistaken here and I'll course remove this post.

The podcast is called *Dance Culture Vibe* and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, etc. This discussion takes place in Episode 3 - Mitchell Gomez, around 1 hour & 3 minutes in - although I'm sure you'll find much else of interest in this discussion!

Cheers!


----------



## user666

Dance Culture Vibe said:


> The podcast is called *Dance Culture Vibe* and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, etc. This discussion takes place in Episode 3 - Mitchell Gomez, around 1 hour & 3 minutes in - although I'm sure you'll find much else of interest in this discussion!


At 1:4:35 He said "_GC/MS is not a foolable technology..._"

This guy needs to get educated and read some of the papers quoted on this thread which document identical GC/MS spectra from different compounds.


----------



## G_Chem

Dance Culture Vibe said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I recently sat down with the Executive Director of Dancesafe for my new podcast to discuss the current state of MDMA, and I asked him specifically about the issue of Magic vs Meh!
> 
> I'm not sure I was able to properly articulate the strongest arguments/contentions in this thread, but the issue is now on their radar in a new and public way. Hopefully the episode will also serve to mainstream these conversations and introduce people to the specific physiological differences between the two alleged MDMA experiences.
> 
> I definitely don't want to spam but figure this is enough of a niche interest to the group that it would be OK to share it with the thread. Please let me know if I'm mistaken here and I'll course remove this post.
> 
> The podcast is called *Dance Culture Vibe* and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, etc. This discussion takes place in Episode 3 - Mitchell Gomez, around 1 hour & 3 minutes in - although I'm sure you'll find much else of interest in this discussion!
> 
> Cheers!



You are awesome man and I’ll be sure to check out this podcast today!  While I respect Mitchell and everything he has done (I sport a DanceSafe tattoo from way back..) I have a feeling I’ll respectfully disagree with some of his points.

I love listening to psychedelic and empathogen related podcasts when I make long country wide drives.  Unfortunately it’s been awhile on one of those thanks to Covid :/

-GC


----------



## Negi

Dance Culture Vibe said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I recently sat down with the Executive Director of Dancesafe for my new podcast to discuss the current state of MDMA, and I asked him specifically about the issue of Magic vs Meh!
> 
> I'm not sure I was able to properly articulate the strongest arguments/contentions in this thread, but the issue is now on their radar in a new and public way. Hopefully the episode will also serve to mainstream these conversations and introduce people to the specific physiological differences between the two alleged MDMA experiences.
> 
> I definitely don't want to spam but figure this is enough of a niche interest to the group that it would be OK to share it with the thread. Please let me know if I'm mistaken here and I'll course remove this post.
> 
> The podcast is called *Dance Culture Vibe* and is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcast, etc. This discussion takes place in Episode 3 - Mitchell Gomez, around 1 hour & 3 minutes in - although I'm sure you'll find much else of interest in this discussion!
> 
> Cheers!



So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.


----------



## Jmoda

Negi said:


> So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.



Wow. Im just sitting here with my popcorn for this one.

Next test up: can one of the old-schoolers take some meh with a very low does of meth/amph.


----------



## Negi

Just to have some rough notes of what he said related to this for people who don't listen to podcasts:

He also mentioned a few other possibilities (just as an offhand list).

- Isomers (apparently L-MDMA is more stimulating and less empathogenic).
- Trace elements inside MDMA produced from safarole.
- People have created structural changes within their brain over long periods of using MDMA.

He mentions taking 120mg of PMK produced MDMA and being very impressed (half of one of the original orange Teslas).
He's never taken anything that tested as MDMA that didn't feel like MDMA. He specifically mentions that the subjective effects he feels have slowly lowered over time, he thinks the first 4-10 times you take MDMA in your life are probably unique "When you've gone skydiving 500 times it's still exhilarating, [...] but you don't capture the magic of the early experiences". He strongly suspects that's some of what people are feeling.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

But that has been discounted i have rolled over 150 + times maybe over 200 i lost  count i abused it heavy and yet i can still feel very strong effects of high quality mdma like those early days. the 10 times was put out by ann shuglin to stop college kids killing their brain cells during college and abusing mdma.


----------



## Negi

I'll just repeat what I said the last time this came up:

It seems to be pretty clear that individual genetics/biology plays a very significant role in tolerance, "losing the magic" and even stuff like comedowns. This makes any discussion and advice related to the matter quite complicated. It also tends to focus communities and discussion in certain ways, because individuals who quickly lose the effects or have horrific comedowns are much less likely to stick around in the rave scene/MDMA discussion forums.



TripSitterNZ said:


> the 10 times was put out by ann shuglin to stop college kids killing their brain cells during college and abusing mdma.



I don't think so, at that point in the interview she was talking about the therapeutic use of MDMA. Here's the full context of the quote that is used for the three month rule:


			
				https://www.erowid.org/culture/characters/shulgin_alexander/shulgin_alexander_interview2.shtml said:
			
		

> Q: How many patients have you worked with? Do you know how they feel now?
> Ann: The people who stayed in touch all seemed to have benefitted from it, but that's perhaps because they were very carefully chosen.  MDMA (which is not a psychedelic) and the psychedelic drugs should never be used with people who are psychotic.  For two years I collaborated with a hypnotherapist, and we worked only with people who were what you might call neurotic.  They had already done their primary psychological work with the hypnotherapist, and these were people she felt, when they had finished that work, they were ready to go further and deeper.  The only thing that has happened with everyone I know who has used MDMA a great deal is that if they used it more than 4 times a year, they developed a tolerance, and after a few years, it begins to not work for them.   They want to get back the magic of the first experience, and that is a mistake, because - as Sasha likes to say  --  "You never step into the same river water twice. " I found out, for myself, that using MDMA more often than four times a year was not wise.  I used MDMA as a writing drug for about a year. Once a week, I would do a great deal of writing using MDMA; it was a wonderful experience for me to use it that way, but I discovered after that kind of use that I had to go up in dosage to get an effect, and the effect became less and less the magical insight; it was more and more the stimulant effects, and for many years now, I have been totally unable to use it. Not only because now it is illegal, but because I used it once a week, and that was too often.  Nobody knew that, then, but now I would advise anyone who wants to use MDMA not to take it more than 4 times a year if you want to continue to get the best effects from it, otherwise you risk losing its effects entirely and permanently.



And from what she said in the rest of that interview she wasn't trying to discourage MDMA use:


> Q: How do you explain the actual use of ecstasy? Do you feel it's corrupted?
> Ann: If I had to choose, I would much rather that young people use MDMA than alcohol.  Alcohol is a seriously dangerous drug, and MDMA, if it is used with common sense and some amount of information, is relatively safe.  If you're dancing all night, you have to be sure you stay hydrated, and not too hydrated, and you should always give yourself a little time out to rest,


----------



## Jmoda

Negi said:


> He specifically mentions that the subjective effects he feels have slowly lowered over time, he thinks the first 4-10 times you take MDMA in your life are probably unique "When you've gone skydiving 500 times it's still exhilarating, [...] but you don't capture the magic of the early experiences". He strongly suspects that's some of what people are feeling.



From my own personal experience, I now think that a great way to circumvent this is by mixing different/new low doses of psychs with your rolls. Each time I have done this the experience is out of this world (even better than the first time), but it too seems to lose its "magic", until of course you change up the sprinkles on your cupcake. There should be enough types of sprinkles however to really ever avoid losing that experience, perhaps just an inconvenience of having the hurdle of having to go find the different ones.


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.


There was also a theory, that MDMA+Meth pills were responsible for the extreme sexual stimulation experienced by some people.


----------



## SunriseChampion

Sorry to just barge in here after months of absence, but I've finally gotten around to self-testing a batch of MDMA that I got in February. Alas, it isn't the previously-mentioned suspected proppa stuff that I was hoping to get around Christmas, but after running every reagent I could buy (as well as a purity test, and a fentanyl test, of course) it's testing as not only MDMA but pretty high purity (as in content % ).

One problem: I can't be sure it's not BZP or TFMPP as these two are still possibilities from the reagent tests I was able to do, though the purity test suggest their not present as it presents differently with these two compounds in solution.

I feel fairly confident in its cleanliness that I will do an in vivo test with three subjects including my damn self shortly, report on the effects, and then send it off to the LCMS/GCMS testing available at a local hospital.

For reference:

Mandelin: straight to black
Marquis:  to black in <2s
Liebermann: straight to black
Mecke: a very fast dark blue/black in <2s
Simon's: to dark blue in <2s
Froehde: straight to very dark purple/black  (possible 5/6-APB?)
Hoffmann: no change
Ehrlich: no change
Folin: slow fade to a light but bright dark pink/red (according to my colour chart, a bit darker than the reaction from MDMA should be, pointing at either BZP or TFMPP..though BZP looks like it would run darker)
MDMA purity test: showed dark brown on top, no colour on bottom with no residue (which suggests high purity and no piperazines)

I'd appreciate any feedback on my test results before in vivo testing. Cheers. 

Edit: Does the Mecke reaction rule out piperazines?
Edit Edit: Ok, apparently the Froehde reaction rules out piperazines


----------



## Negi

SunriseChampion said:


> I will do an in vivo test with three subjects including my damn self shortly, report on the effects, and then send it off to the LCMS/GCMS testing available at a local hospital.


If lab testing is available and you have any sort of concern why on earth wouldn't you do it first?


----------



## SunriseChampion

Negi said:


> If lab testing is available and you have any sort of concern why on earth wouldn't you do it first?



I'm obviously not too concerned.

Believe me, I'm well past the age of reckless abandon.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.



Ironically, my pills at the time were literally sent to Dancesafe for GCMS testing and they were NOT MDMA + meth. Somebody let me on this podcast...lol.


----------



## indigoaura

Welcome back @SunriseChampion! Which purity test are you using for the purity? I know I have seen one before, but I can't recall what it was called.

I got some new product. In appearance, it is a slightly cream soda colored clear crystal. I think it is probably the clearest crystal I have seen, and they are small crystals and not this fused together stuff. When I hold one up to the light, I can see through it. It is not 100% devoid of color though, there is a definite hue. However, it does not have the same tone to the hue that I typically see in some of these crystals. There is less red/brown to the color and it is a more neutral tone. I will try to get a picture, but I really don't want to use my cell phone for such purposes and my camera does not do the best job at capturing the colors. But, I will give it a go.

I just ran the Marquis and Simon's tests so far. Marquis definitely turned purple then black, but it held on to that purple tone. @G_Chem, there was definitely NO blue or indigo to the final color but it was a violet black. I ran an additional Marquis test on the last product I used to compare the color tone and they were the same. 

As for smell, there was absolutely NO smell of any kind. No chemical smell, no safrole smell, nothing.

I will probably send it off to a lab at some point, but that will take me a little while.

Also, for a variety of reasons, I won't be testing it out any time soon, but wanted to share the description of the appearance and will post some pics if I can.


----------



## draculic acid69

Negi said:


> So his speculation is that back in the day people were used to getting MDMA + (meth)amphetamine combination pills. Lower doses of meth would be overwhelmed by the MDMA and not register in reagent tests conducted at the time.


I've had ketamine,meth and xtc all in the one pill and a marquis/mandelin test clearly shows all three colours.
Meth in mdma pills produce a very clearly noticeable effect that anyone with mdma experience can clarify from straight mdma


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> Ironically, my pills at the time were literally sent to Dancesafe for GCMS testing and they were NOT MDMA + meth. Somebody let me on this podcast...lol.



That’s what I’m saying, if dude ever needs someone to interview lol

I haven’t listened yet but I disagree with the assertion l-MDMA is (less empathogenic and more stimulating) that’s actually completely false.

All research shows d-MDMA to be more stimulating than l isomer.  If we look at closely related phenethylamines we see a similar pattern, for instance both meth and amphetamine which are stimulants are pretty much nearly inactive as the l isomer.

He clearly hasn’t really done the research and is just jumping on the old isomer bandwagon cuz it’s easy.

Again I very much respect the man, but frankly he’s not chemist he’s just a raver that created a good harm reduction program.

Get me on there and I’ll describe the varying MDMA chemistry trends over the years, I’ll give factual information on the two enatiomers, as well as my experience going strong in the dance and MDMA scene for ~15+yrs...

-GC


----------



## Negi

draculic acid69 said:


> I've had ketamine,meth and xtc all in the one pill and a marquis/mandelin test clearly shows all three colours.


If the quantities are low enough they won't show. Here's an example where where a smaller amount of PMA isn't detectable to Marquis, Mandelin or Mecke because the effects from MDMA mask it. It's one reason I'm skeptical when people try and find a reagent result that will indicate "meh" or "magic". If it is due to trace elements/drugs it's very unlikely the results from them would be noticeable over the general MDMA result.


----------



## G_Chem

All drugs are different, in the case of PMA yes it can be impossible to spot in a mixed pill.  Meth on the other hand in sufficient quantities will show on Marquis as it reacts a second sooner with the orangey before going dark.

That said, I’m not sure one could spot “trace” amounts which with meth even trace amounts will alter the experience.  I personally enjoy adding in .5-2mg d-meth and IMO that little dose greatly alters the experience.

But Indigo got her shit lab tested back in the day... I trust her word on it.

It’s my belief actually that the surge of meth in pills from 2002-3 to 07 was actually due to the synthesis change from Leuckart.  The Leuckart gave a speedier/dancier product which was lacking when many chemists began using al/Hg or borohydride/cyan reductions frequently touted on the Hive.

To compensate I believe some pressers started using meth to give back the kick it was now missing for the older users expecting that old speedy vibe.

Anyone that disagrees the 90’s Leuckart MDMA was different look at videos from back then with literally everyone nearly burning a hole in the floor their feet are moving so fast.  Eyes are super wide, gurning is next level, the pills back then by today’s standards look speedy if we were to compare.

Music is a great indicator of the mindstate of a person, of a generation, notice how the 90’s was all fairly fast paced genres but once mid 00’s rolled around the music bpm and overall vibe began to mellow.


I’d also be curious though to see if anyone who’s got meh to try a little meth or amp on the side in low doses to see if that spices things up.

-GC


----------



## SunriseChampion

I have no idea what the hell the solution is, @indigoaura....I got all my testing gear from TestKitPlus.com.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Negi said:


> If the quantities are low enough they won't show. Here's an example where where a smaller amount of PMA isn't detectable to Marquis, Mandelin or Mecke because the effects from MDMA mask it. It's one reason I'm skeptical when people try and find a reagent result that will indicate "meh" or "magic". If it is due to trace elements/drugs it's very unlikely the results from them would be noticeable over the general MDMA result.


Reagents are pretty good for telling you whether your pills and powders contain what they are supposed to, especially if you can narrow results down using a few different reagents.

They are hopelessly inconsistent for trying to identify impurities though in my experience.

I've had blue swirls turn purple black. Then retested the same pill with the same reagent in the same way and it goes straight to black, or leaves a greenish edge this time.

I know there are ways to produce more specific and consistent results using those reagents but the conventional EZ-test method really just gives an indication that your drugs contain some percentage of what they are being sold as.

I certainly recommend their use to people when buying drugs from dealers.


----------



## majk13

Found this, dont ask me where 

_I see a lot of people new on ******* selling MDMA for ridiculous low prices. Be warned this is NOT MDMA. 

Those are research chemicals from china that can be bought legal for less then 1 euro the gram. TEST WHAT YOU BUY! Or it is very bad quality what we call coca-cola because of the brown colour caused by contaminated product! Have a look around  doesn't it seems like there is some weird shit being sold as QUALITY MDMA??

 BROWN, YELLOW, BLACK and even PINK colored MDMA!! It looks like a fucking RAINBOW ! Well I will let you in on some knowledge from MDMA capital of the world A.K.A. Holland! Call this some insider information if you like. Over here we call SHIT MDMA COCA-COLA, because it has its  BROWNISH/YELLOWISH color due to MDP2P contamination! Its basically shit thats unsellable on the dutch market!! 

Whats going on with PINK MDMA I can hear you ask? Well this happens when an impure solution gets over gassed during a certain chemical reaction in the MDMA cooking process. This can be fixed by taking the time to recrystallize.

 However as time = money some cooks rush the job. Honestly I do not know what they fucked up to get BLACK product but that shit cant be right...

 If you want PURE MDMA you need to look for something thats as close to WHITE as possible. pure MDMA is slightly OFF WHITE colored, like a light CHAMPAGNE but if you are buying where some MDMA is YELLOW PISS colored you should look for something WHITE! So the WHITER the product is, the BETTER the quality! Also when you look at pictures watch out for OLD MDMA, you can recognize it from the shards having WHITE SCRATCH marks all over them. 

Sometimes its even so bad that it hides the color!! Also a tell is the shards having a ROUNDED shape due too AGE and being handled so much! _


----------



## TripSitterNZ

that is my experince aswell, always avoid the overcooked black shit and i see those cola mdma try be sold for cheap a few times that were imported. Nice white crystals are the best but very rare. Alot of people import brown mdma here usually has alot of mdp2p oil in it wash it out with acetone and you lose over 20% weight.  Grey mdma is average but still got that love. Most stuff here is moon rock or champagne. 

Idk about old mdma though, I have stored mdma for up to a year and it was just as good as when i got it.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

I found some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal shit here in the USA cheap af too. White, can we post pictures? It gave me the feels, which I haven;t had from MDMA since 2013? I got it from MDA a few months ago, but MDA is still fire. I really think some people just know what they're doing and some don't when it comes to making MDMA. As the poster a few post above referenced, Molly is EVERYWHERE now compared to even 10 years ago. And, there's very very few domestic (USA) made pills. Thus people take their shitty molly put 300mg into a pill and boom, everyone thinks its the cats meow.,


----------



## G_Chem

mrsmokeweed said:


> I found some reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal shit here in the USA cheap af too. White, can we post pictures? It gave me the feels, which I haven;t had from MDMA since 2013? I got it from MDA a few months ago, but MDA is still fire. I really think some people just know what they're doing and some don't when it comes to making MDMA. As the poster a few post above referenced, Molly is EVERYWHERE now compared to even 10 years ago. And, there's very very few domestic (USA) made pills. Thus people take their shitty molly put 300mg into a pill and boom, everyone thinks its the cats meow.,



You still around the Midwest? I re-read the old mint threads and saw your name and remembered you.  Good times eh?

-GC


----------



## Negi

majk13 said:


> Found this, dont ask me where
> 
> _I see a lot of people new on ******* selling MDMA for ridiculous low prices. Be warned this is NOT MDMA.
> 
> Those are research chemicals from china that can be bought legal for less then 1 euro the gram. TEST WHAT YOU BUY! Or it is very bad quality what we call coca-cola because of the brown colour caused by contaminated product! Have a look around  doesn't it seems like there is some weird shit being sold as QUALITY MDMA??
> 
> BROWN, YELLOW, BLACK and even PINK colored MDMA!! It looks like a fucking RAINBOW ! Well I will let you in on some knowledge from MDMA capital of the world A.K.A. Holland! Call this some insider information if you like. Over here we call SHIT MDMA COCA-COLA, because it has its  BROWNISH/YELLOWISH color due to MDP2P contamination! Its basically shit thats unsellable on the dutch market!!
> 
> Whats going on with PINK MDMA I can hear you ask? Well this happens when an impure solution gets over gassed during a certain chemical reaction in the MDMA cooking process. This can be fixed by taking the time to recrystallize.
> 
> However as time = money some cooks rush the job. Honestly I do not know what they fucked up to get BLACK product but that shit cant be right...
> 
> If you want PURE MDMA you need to look for something thats as close to WHITE as possible. pure MDMA is slightly OFF WHITE colored, like a light CHAMPAGNE but if you are buying where some MDMA is YELLOW PISS colored you should look for something WHITE! So the WHITER the product is, the BETTER the quality! Also when you look at pictures watch out for OLD MDMA, you can recognize it from the shards having WHITE SCRATCH marks all over them.
> 
> Sometimes its even so bad that it hides the color!! Also a tell is the shards having a ROUNDED shape due too AGE and being handled so much! _



Leftover MDP2P is definitely something that the testing services will detect, so it can't be in the "meh" MDMA that users here have had tested as only MDMA.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Leftover MDP2P is definitely something that the testing services will detect, so it can't be in the "meh" MDMA that users here have had tested as only MDMA.



Lab Analysis has gotten a lot better over the years, if you look at Drugs Data they’ve been reporting on a lot more synthesis byproducts than ever before.  Whether that’s just because they simply didn’t report them before or what, we don’t know.

But yea lab analysis from 15yrs ago will give more basic info than what we’ve been getting today..

Also one guy said he got a batch of magic and a batch of meh tested a long while back and the meh was a bit less pure with Mdp2p as the major impurity.

Indigo reports MDp2p-ol to also be in meh...  It seems these intermediates dont play well with our receptors.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> Lab Analysis has gotten a lot better over the years, if you look at Drugs Data they’ve been reporting on a lot more synthesis byproducts than ever before.  Whether that’s just because they simply didn’t report them before or what, we don’t know.
> 
> But yea lab analysis from 15yrs ago will give more basic info than what we’ve been getting today..
> 
> Also one guy said he got a batch of magic and a batch of meh tested a long while back and the meh was a bit less pure with Mdp2p as the major impurity.
> 
> Indigo reports MDp2p-ol to also be in meh...  It seems these intermediates dont play well with our receptors.
> 
> -GC



Three of the meh samples I have submitted have had trace synthesis byproducts/contaminants in them. The only one that did not, the one sent to IEC, I did not even see the GCMS report on, just the UV report that showed the 80% MDMA. They messed up that analysis and did not supply me with the GCMS report. Once I re-send them that sample, I will have a better idea of what the unstated 20% of that analysis was (and before someone jumps in here to correct me and tell me that it is only 86% max, that is NOT the standard that IEC uses. They clarified to me it was 80% out of 100% NOT 80% out of 86%).

Sample 1: https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=2644
Sample 2: https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8547

Please note that these two samples (although submitted many years apart) came from the same supplier. That individual commented after sample 1 was submitted that an acetone wash would be added. The product did change color after that and was whiter. That individual was very confused about why/how either MBDB or MDA could be in the sample at all based on the methodology used. Really makes me wonder if MBDB and MDA are accurate interpretations of the contaminants. As we saw in the recent article ( https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332 ), there are unidentified novel compounds that look a lot like known compounds.

Sample3: https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8546

Out of these three samples, sample 1 was the most meh followed by sample 2. Sample 3 was meh in a different way. It had a lot of jaw clenching and an awful comedown. That one made me very ill and so did sample 1. Sample 2 is the one that my partner did after a 5 year break and said, "That was definitely not X, just a collection of symptoms."

If I was rolling in money (pun intended), which I currently am NOT due to COVID-19 job changes, I would want to see both an IEC analysis AND a Drugs Data analysis on every sample. I would want to know if the two labs found the same thing in each sample, or if they differed.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

G_Chem said:


> You still around the Midwest? I re-read the old mint threads and saw your name and remembered you.  Good times eh?
> 
> -GC


I'm in Denver now. The mints are prolly in my top 10 pills of all time, i was taking a break when they first came out, but in 2009 I got back on em. Green and pink strawberries in Chi from 05 are my favorite pills ever. Chicago used to be the plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace for X but idk anymore.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> Three of the meh samples I have submitted have had trace synthesis byproducts/contaminants in them. The only one that did not, the one sent to IEC, I did not even see the GCMS report on, just the UV report that showed the 80% MDMA. They messed up that analysis and did not supply me with the GCMS report. Once I re-send them that sample, I will have a better idea of what the unstated 20% of that analysis was (and before someone jumps in here to correct me and tell me that it is only 86% max, that is NOT the standard that IEC uses. They clarified to me it was 80% out of 100% NOT 80% out of 86%).
> 
> Sample 1: https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=2644
> Sample 2: https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8547
> 
> Please note that these two samples (although submitted many years apart) came from the same supplier. That individual commented after sample 1 was submitted that an acetone wash would be added. The product did change color after that and was whiter. That individual was very confused about why/how either MBDB or MDA could be in the sample at all based on the methodology used. Really makes me wonder if MBDB and MDA are accurate interpretations of the contaminants. As we saw in the recent article ( https://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332 ), there are unidentified novel compounds that look a lot like known compounds.
> 
> Sample3: https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8546
> 
> Out of these three samples, sample 1 was the most meh followed by sample 2. Sample 3 was meh in a different way. It had a lot of jaw clenching and an awful comedown. That one made me very ill and so did sample 1. Sample 2 is the one that my partner did after a 5 year break and said, "That was definitely not X, just a collection of symptoms."
> 
> If I was rolling in money (pun intended), which I currently am NOT due to COVID-19 job changes, I would want to see both an IEC analysis AND a Drugs Data analysis on every sample. I would want to know if the two labs found the same thing in each sample, or if they differed.



MDA I can understand but I agree MBDB has me perplexed as I’m pretty it the synthesis routes vary enough to not just have some accidentally show up.

That said, today I’ll look through literature to see what I see..  Maybe it can more easily than I realize.

MDA can show up fairly easily from a number of factors, and it’s possible the old Leuckart MDMA might have had some residual MDA on top of other impurities.



mrsmokeweed said:


> I'm in Denver now. The mints are prolly in my top 10 pills of all time, i was taking a break when they first came out, but in 2009 I got back on em. Green and pink strawberries in Chi from 05 are my favorite pills ever. Chicago used to be the plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace for X but idk anymore.



Yea I moved too but those were the days... Ever get any of the white rolex’s, diamonds, or supermen all from the same batch/supplier around like 08-09’ish?  They were floating around WI and MN, so fire...

I also think I took some of the first mints ever, back in 07 my buddy from Chi comes up to me with these nasty looking ghetto pills.  They were like a mix between pink and orange, looked disgusting.  No stamp, crumbly and thin like the mints.

Straight MDA bomb that had me so high I was running around my little rural town that night getting into all sorts of shenanigans, told my buddy I loved him an incessant amount of times lol. When I chewed it it instantly dissolved and had the strongest sassy bitterness of any mint I’ve had since..

Thing is looking back at the old threads no one speaks of this Mint, but most also said they didn’t start til 08 which this might of been his beginning “prototype” it definitely had the mint vibe and love.

Sadly I didn’t see another mint until 10-11, pink equals at the very first Forest 11 had me feeling mighty fine.

My favorite mint though was a yellow blank I took at that venue in MKE, the roll felt pretty rushy but standard the thing was though me and my whole crew looked at each other 8hrs later and realized we were still more awake than we shoulda been.

Mint crew were masters at formulating pills, there was definitely meth in those yellows but the perfect amount of high purity meth to not overshadow the roll but simply give one energy to dance all night but not feel tweaked.

Some may disagree with me but having had enough of their MDMA/MDA mix tabs it definitely had some long lasting stimulant in those yellows.

Sorry got all nostalgic haha, I miss those times... It’s all K with the new kids.

-GC


----------



## mrsmokeweed

G_Chem said:


> MDA I can understand but I agree MBDB has me perplexed as I’m pretty it the synthesis routes vary enough to not just have some accidentally show up.
> 
> That said, today I’ll look through literature to see what I see..  Maybe it can more easily than I realize.
> 
> MDA can show up fairly easily from a number of factors, and it’s possible the old Leuckart MDMA might have had some residual MDA on top of other impurities.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea I moved too but those were the days... Ever get any of the white rolex’s, diamonds, or supermen all from the same batch/supplier around like 08-09’ish?  They were floating around WI and MN, so fire...
> 
> I also think I took some of the first mints ever, back in 07 my buddy from Chi comes up to me with these nasty looking ghetto pills.  They were like a mix between pink and orange, looked disgusting.  No stamp, crumbly and thin like the mints.
> 
> Straight MDA bomb that had me so high I was running around my little rural town that night getting into all sorts of shenanigans, told my buddy I loved him an incessant amount of times lol. When I chewed it it instantly dissolved and had the strongest sassy bitterness of any mint I’ve had since..
> 
> Thing is looking back at the old threads no one speaks of this Mint, but most also said they didn’t start til 08 which this might of been his beginning “prototype” it definitely had the mint vibe and love.
> 
> Sadly I didn’t see another mint until 10-11, pink equals at the very first Forest 11 had me feeling mighty fine.
> 
> My favorite mint though was a yellow blank I took at that venue in MKE, the roll felt pretty rushy but standard the thing was though me and my whole crew looked at each other 8hrs later and realized we were still more awake than we shoulda been.
> 
> Mint crew were masters at formulating pills, there was definitely meth in those yellows but the perfect amount of high purity meth to not overshadow the roll but simply give one energy to dance all night but not feel tweaked.
> 
> Some may disagree with me but having had enough of their MDMA/MDA mix tabs it definitely had some long lasting stimulant in those yellows.
> 
> Sorry got all nostalgic haha, I miss those times... It’s all K with the new kids.
> 
> -GC


Yea man, I had Blue A's in 2010? That were 65/35 MDA/MDMA, and it still is far and away the best MDA I've ever taken(including the white 1's lightning bolts etc.). These purple armani's are very good too. I had white rolexes around that time that I remember were insanely strong MDMA, smoked when tested. If you go on pillreports my user name is/was rollinabq, I had quite a few reports. Fun to reminisce on and read back.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

Just for reference,


----------



## majk13

nice


----------



## indigoaura

Wow, @mrsmokeweed, I have never seen product that looks like that.


----------



## fasterfb

It looks like K.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea that looks like K rocks to me.

-GC


----------



## Jmoda

Thats what alot of the euro product looked like around '09.


----------



## Negi

I've seen pure white flour like powder that FTIR tested as nothing but MDMA (and my friend responded to very favourably). Trying to judge MDMA by what it looks like is silly. This is what MDMA looks like after multiple purification washes and being recrystallized using water.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> I've seen pure white flour like powder that FTIR tested as nothing but MDMA (and my friend responded to very favourably). Trying to judge MDMA by what it looks like is silly. This is what MDMA looks like after multiple purification washes and being recrystallized using water.



While I’ve seen good MDMA in many forms, I’ve very rarely seen it look like the last pic.

The pic you’ve shown has been posted here before, it shows mostly the hydrated polymorph of MDMA very pure product.  Most everybody will unfortunately never see product this pure.

Powder can be just as pure as the ultra pure crystals in that photo, but usually it isn’t.

-GC


----------



## mrsmokeweed

indigoaura said:


> Wow, @mrsmokeweed, I have never seen product that looks like that.


This is the first time I've ever had such clear molly. It typically looks like that with a more tan color, and sucks.


----------



## G_Chem

mrsmokeweed said:


> This is the first time I've ever had such clear molly. It typically looks like that with a more tan color, and sucks.



Newer more recent product?

-GC


----------



## Negi

The idea that Leuckart reaction MDMA might have had a different feel than the stuff produced later on has come up a few times in the thread, and I found a few papers on a recent dive into the literature that might be of interest to anyone following that up.

The first is from 1993, A study of the precursors, intermediates and reaction by-products in the synthesis of 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine and its application to forensic drug analysis. In it MDMA is produced using two different Leuckart routes and examined for any possible impurities and byproducts.

The second is from 2005, A study of impurities in intermediates and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) samples produced via reductive amination routes. In it MDMA is produced using three different routes, including Al/Hg and examined  for any possible impurities and byproducts. This one goes a bit deeper than the 1993 paper and looks at the possible routes to PMK and examines them for impurities as well.

Checking between these might shed some light on any possible difference in the final outputs.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> The idea that Leuckart reaction MDMA might have had a different feel than the stuff produced later on has come up a few times in the thread, and I found a few papers on a recent dive into the literature that might be of interest to anyone following that up.
> 
> The first is from 1993, A study of the precursors, intermediates and reaction by-products in the synthesis of 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine and its application to forensic drug analysis. In it MDMA is produced using two different Leuckart routes and examined for any possible impurities and byproducts.
> 
> The second is from 2005, A study of impurities in intermediates and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) samples produced via reductive amination routes. In it MDMA is produced using three different routes, including Al/Hg and examined  for any possible impurities and byproducts. This one goes a bit deeper than the 1993 paper and looks at the possible routes to PMK and examines them for impurities as well.
> 
> Checking between these might shed some light on any possible difference in the final outputs.



Not to be a dick, but the first paper has already been posted multiple times here and the second at least once mixed amongst the tons of posts in this thread.

The first though I think highlights perfectly once again the impurities in old Leuckart 90’s MDMA which likely gave the different effects.

They show how the pills back then also contained n-formyl MDMA (very likely active) and DMMDA (a known active).

If it’s this DMMDA they mean...






						Read #58 DMMDA | PiHKAL · info
					

Book II of PiHKAL: A Chemical Love Story. Alexander & Ann Shulgin #58: DMMDA



					isomerdesign.com
				




Then we see it’s a substance with about twice the potency of actual MDMA, and would definitely add a unique twist to the experience of just pure MDMA.

Look at the very last experience at 75mg the reporter says it had a “religious aspect, the experience had an aesthetic value, I really liked it.”

This in combination with MDMA I could see being very worthwhile indeed.

-GC


----------



## vecktor

G_Chem said:


> Not to be a dick, but the first paper has already been posted multiple times here and the second at least once mixed amongst the tons of posts in this thread.
> 
> The first though I think highlights perfectly once again the impurities in old Leuckart 90’s MDMA which likely gave the different effects.
> 
> They show how the pills back then also contained n-formyl MDMA (very likely active) and DMMDA (a known active).
> 
> If it’s this DMMDA they mean...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Read #58 DMMDA | PiHKAL · info
> 
> 
> Book II of PiHKAL: A Chemical Love Story. Alexander & Ann Shulgin #58: DMMDA
> 
> 
> 
> isomerdesign.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then we see it’s a substance with about twice the potency of actual MDMA, and would definitely add a unique twist to the experience of just pure MDMA.
> 
> Look at the very last experience at 75mg the reporter says it had a “religious aspect, the experience had an aesthetic value, I really liked it.”
> 
> This in combination with MDMA I could see being very worthwhile indeed.
> 
> -GC


They mean NN Dimethylamino Methylenedioxy Amphetamine, MDMA with an extra methyl which is very much reduced activity.


----------



## G_Chem

vecktor said:


> They mean NN Dimethylamino Methylenedioxy Amphetamine, MDMA with an extra methyl which is very much reduced activity.



I though MDMA with an extra methyl was referred to as MDDMA, Methylenedioxydimethylamphetamine.  This naming has been used since the Shulgin days so unlikely to have changed

Edit sorry Shulgin called it MDDM.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

After further review of the study you are right, now this is jogging my memory and I think I came to similar conclusions years ago after actually carefully reading.  My memory must be horrible from all this MDMA 

That said, the n-formyl-MDMA is the one found in any quantity anyways.  Ideas on activity forvthat one?

I’ve heard “nitro-MDA” to be active in a stimulant kind of way, obviously this probably correlated little but it’s the only substituted Mdxx type compound I’ve seen assayed.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

It appears it is indeed likely active!!!









						Formetorex - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				




This is the n-formal intermediate for amphetamine in Leuckart said to be active.

While not studies look at how much N-formyl MDMA is found a study on PMA/PMMA found around 20% so extrapolation from that we can assume the old Leuckart MDMA had at least 10-20% too.

There’s the smoking gun for Leuckart, how I never spotted this n-formyl-Amphetamine wiki before I won’t know.

“Formetorex (INN), also known as formetamide or N-formylamphetamine, is an amphetamine described as an anorectic which does not appear to have ever been marketed.”


Edit- This study goes over amphetamine and methamphetamine purity in the 80’s when they were both primarily made via Leuckart.






						Leuckart-specific Impurities in Amphetamine and Methamphetamine Seized in Norway | Office of Justice Programs
					






					www.ncjrs.gov
				




Notice how Amphetamine reached purity of 99% but meth only tops out at 72%.  That’s because Leuckart works better for primary amines over secondary amines.

Anecdotal reports say the same for MD amphetamine species.  So we can assume MDMA in the 90’s was almost certainly impure.

Notice how 99% meth samples contain the n-formyl intermediate but only 79% for amphetamine.

With all this we can be almost certain of a number of things...

1.  MDMA in the 90’s was made via Leuckart.
2.  Secondary amines made via Leuckart such as PMMA, Meth, and MDMA all are less pure and almost certainly contain at least some n-formyl intermediate.
3.  While very little research has been conducted, the n-formyl intermediate of amphetamine has been found to be an active anorectic even with its own pharmaceutical name.

Now if anyone finds info on pharmacological data for n-formyl-amp or any other n-formyl intermediate I’ll kiss you.

-GC


----------



## Jmoda

G_Chem said:


> It appears it is indeed likely active!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Formetorex - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.m.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the n-formal intermediate for amphetamine in Leuckart said to be active.
> 
> While not studies look at how much N-formyl MDMA is found a study on PMA/PMMA found around 20% so extrapolation from that we can assume the old Leuckart MDMA had at least 10-20% too.
> 
> There’s the smoking gun for Leuckart, how I never spotted this n-formyl-Amphetamine wiki before I won’t know.
> 
> “Formetorex (INN), also known as formetamide or N-formylamphetamine, is an amphetamine described as an anorectic which does not appear to have ever been marketed.”
> 
> 
> Edit- This study goes over amphetamine and methamphetamine purity in the 80’s when they were both primarily made via Leuckart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leuckart-specific Impurities in Amphetamine and Methamphetamine Seized in Norway | Office of Justice Programs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncjrs.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice how Amphetamine reached purity of 99% but meth only tops out at 72%.  That’s because Leuckart works better for primary amines over secondary amines.
> 
> Anecdotal reports say the same for MD amphetamine species.  So we can assume MDMA in the 90’s was almost certainly impure.
> 
> Notice how 99% meth samples contain the n-formyl intermediate but only 79% for amphetamine.
> 
> With all this we can be almost certain of a number of things...
> 
> 1.  MDMA in the 90’s was made via Leuckart.
> 2.  Secondary amines made via Leuckart such as PMMA, Meth, and MDMA all are less pure and almost certainly contain at least some n-formyl intermediate.
> 3.  While very little research has been conducted, the n-formyl intermediate of amphetamine has been found to be an active anorectic even with its own pharmaceutical name.
> 
> Now if anyone finds info on pharmacological data for n-formyl-amp or any other n-formyl intermediate I’ll kiss you.
> 
> -GC



Then what is the solution for oldschool mdma, mix today's mdma with stims?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Jmoda said:


> Then what is the solution for oldschool mdma, mix today's mdma with stims?



Nah. Even when oldskool MDMA was mixed with stimulants, it only enhanced the stimulant effects whilst diminishing the empathogenic qualities. So mixing meh and stims is not going to polish that turd imo...


----------



## Jmoda

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Nah. Even when oldskool MDMA was mixed with stimulants, it only enhanced the stimulant effects whilst diminishing the empathogenic qualities. So mixing meh and stims is not going to polish that turd imo...



But what if we mix it with the aformentioned substances like dmmda/formetorex


----------



## G_Chem

So as Vektor said, DMMDA as in the case of the study is not the same DMMDA I linked at first.  But as he said, it _should_ have lessened activity overall.

The only way to get your hands on n-formyl-MDxx would be to synthesize til right before the last hydrolysis step of the Leuckart.  In other words, not easy to get anc then you’d have unlimited amounts of Leuckart MDMA anyways.

Now in regards to my first comment, I got a message a long while back on another platform from someone who had obtained MDMA that contained also MDA and MDDMA (aka DMMDA) in decent enough amounts.  They seemed to respond very well to this product, but MDA in there muddies up the results a bit.  Let’s say it didn’t hurt none.

Edit- Thinking more is n-formyl-mdma possible via MDMA treated with Formic acid? @vecktor 

-GC


----------



## Negi

It's frustrating how pretty much none of the papers I have looked at give any direct information about the quantities of impurities in samples. I'm having to try and read the information from GC diagrams.

Here's one from a 2002 paper, where only a small amount of n-formyl-mdma (peak 23) seems present:





Here's one from a 2006 paper: MDMA is peak 15, n-formyl-mdma is peak 36. Unfortunately not scaled enough to let us see the ratio vs MDMA.





Edit: 
From a 2008 paper:


----------



## mrsmokeweed

So that shit is the real deal holyfield. I had a set of very emotional days after using, hadn't had that in ages. Scooping up more tomorrow!


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> It's frustrating how pretty much none of the papers I have looked at give any direct information about the quantities of impurities in samples. I'm having to try and read the information from GC diagrams.
> 
> Here's one from a 2002 paper, where only a small amount of n-formyl-mdma (peak 23) seems present:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's one from a 2006 paper: MDMA is peak 15, n-formyl-mdma is peak 36. Unfortunately not scaled enough to let us see the ratio vs MDMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:
> From a 2008 paper:



Now you deserve a good job Negi.

Those are indeed interesting because it shows the Leuckart was in use longer than I thought.

I’m beginning to change my perspective on when exactly the Leuckart went out of fashion.  It’s becoming obvious that while certain circles began changing over in the late 90’s, certain more established organizations such as those found in the EU likely held to tradition a bit longer.

Since lots of MDMA is exported from here to other parts of the world that can obviously confuse things more as some circles in other random areas will also still be used to this synth product.

How reliable is it though to compare peaks? I thought more was needed than that.

I know what you mean though, I’ll hunt for the one ref I talk about regarding PMMA Leuckart impurities as they do talk of percent quantities.

-GC


----------



## opposable-thumbs

mrsmokeweed said:


> So that shit is the real deal holyfield. I had a set of very emotional days after using, hadn't had that in ages. Scooping up more tomorrow!



Did you get it locally or DN?


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> Those are indeed interesting because it shows the Leuckart was in use longer than I thought.
> 
> I’m beginning to change my perspective on when exactly the Leuckart went out of fashion.  It’s becoming obvious that while certain circles began changing over in the late 90’s, certain more established organizations such as those found in the EU likely held to tradition a bit longer.
> 
> Since lots of MDMA is exported from here to other parts of the world that can obviously confuse things more as some circles in other random areas will also still be used to this synth product.



Here's another one from 2008, from someone's PHD thesis:







G_Chem said:


> How reliable is it though to compare peaks? I thought more was needed than that.



I've found at least one paper where it seems to be used to judge quantities.




It's not exact but it certainly seems to correlate well. 

Here's a bonus from it for your n-formyl-amphetamine theory.


----------



## G_Chem

Truly good work man, the past few are ones I certainly haven’t seen before...

In that analysis of the amphetamine pill we see when comparing to amphetamine content about a ~20% (rough math) n-formyl impurity.  That correlated perfectly with the PMMA Leuckart article I saw which gave about similar amounts.

Also that Malta Guys Thesis is a literal gold mine.  I think I’ve seen it once before but got intimidated by the 350 something pages.  That said...

Folks!!!  This man actually tested enatiometric ratios on the pills from 2006-11 in that area!

And guess what? I’ve always been saying... Every single pill was nearly 50/50 on the isomers.  There was slight variation of a few percent but not enough to account for this.  Interesting though that they weren’t exactly 50/50, and it seems possible one could have a batch more skewed than we see in this particular research.

I’d bet one could likely feel one pill that has 45/55 S/R and one that is 55/45 S/R.  While not much difference, this would probably change the dosage of the product by 15mg.  Which falls perfectly in line with the slight variations in good product I’ve felt over the years.

The chart is on page 225, Negi I’m an idiot with computers could you post that? Or anyone?

After reading this more he found n-formyl-MDMA in 36% of the samples.  Meaning Leuckart was still fairly active during the 00’s in some areas after reviewing more literature, although definitely on the downslope.

I’d love to see some illicit sample analysis from the US during the 00’s or 10’s showing impurity profiles. 

And finally, I can now conclude n-acetyl-MDMA is also a product of the “formamide” Leuckart as I always thought it was a relic from the acetamide version.

Lots of good info.

Here’s in a nutshell...

1.)  The likelihood of enatiometric excess is slim to none.  The guy tested a few of the ‘11 Lacoste’s which were part of the “new generation” of pills.

2.) Leuckart lasted in certain areas longer than late 90’s, but it’s possible due to its waning popularity that many areas lost it sooner than others.

3.) N-formyl intermediate is very possible to be found in content of up to 20%.  It is active.  What n-formyl-mdma does though I haven’t a clue.

-GC


----------



## Negi

Here you go:





Batch five was seized in 2006, batch 45 in 2011.

Edit: I would recommend checking out Table 5.8, it's on page 229


----------



## G_Chem

Something I just noticed was the Lacoste’s do actually sway quite in the R isomer direction...  Relatively.

I’m wondering if these slight variation might matter more than we realize.  Again not saying this is the cause of “meh” but looking at just that small sample there...

The Lacoste with 46.51/53.49 vs the Question Mark at 52.95/47.05

S-MDMA is active 60-120mg, R-MDMA barely active at 160-200mg, and racemic is a tad higher than S-MDMA.

I’ve heard that with racemic methamphetamine the l-meth (aka R-Meth) can act as an MAOI.  Looking at the above info I get the impression R-MDMA does something similar.

This would mean that there may be interactions taking place that are far from linear and may be effected by the slight variations shown above.

IMO These variations (as I said before) give that difference of product that hits intense with a quick comeup, a solid peak and then drops off right at 4 hours VS product which takes a bit longer to get going but lasts longer, wavier, the type of product which feels like it’s still lingering 7 hours later.

-GC


----------



## Jmoda

The question is, can the leuckart be done en masse with whats available today? I am assuming no right? (Ie, pmk glycidate) Are there routes where it could? Whatabout the helional->mda route?


----------



## G_Chem

Jmoda said:


> The question is, can the leuckart be done en masse with whats available today? I am assuming no right? (Ie, pmk glycidate) Are there routes where it could? Whatabout the helional->mda route?



It can.

But... it’s all about yields and purity.  While us rollers may find a little extra n-formyl-MDMA to be nice, to a chemist that’s just an impurity that needs to be ridden of.

Then, even with the best technique it’s only good for 60-70% yields, and these take time to perfect.  While hydrogenation and cyano/borohydride can easily get 95+%.  More often yields average 30-40% for Leuckart.

Plus as vector pointed out, DMMDA (aka MDDMA) is a possible impurity due to dimethylformamide being an impurity in methylformamide.  Which is less active than MDMA.

That said it seems DMMDA isn’t always present in Leuckart MDMA whereas the n-formyl-MDMA is..

The only reason Leuckart lasted as long as it did, is because it’s easy and it’s scaleable.  Old EU Bees used to do up 100’s of kilos in one go.

A quick look we see the following on Drugs Data made via Leuckart..

Amphetamine, Canada








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #2949 - YCP Speed, 2949 (m)
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




Fake 2cb, Mexico








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8354 - Tusi, 8354 (m)
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




Fake X/Meth Bomb, NY








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #6044 - Green Superman, 6044 (m)
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




Notice how the second one contains MDMA amongst a conglomerate of other drugs.  Also notice how a majority is acety-MDMA, 5:1 to MDMA.

In the fake x/meth bomb sample the intermediate to meth is equal.

It’s obvious that some chemists aren’t too good at the final hydrolysis step.  Which could leave an altered product.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I have been saying throughout this thread that I suspect what was going around in Houston from 2000 to 2004 was Leuckart. I know it was imported and not made locally, and as I have posted about before, a major bust in the area broke up the importation ring. @G_Chem , the effects that we typically had were a combo of that fast and rushy comeup plus the longer, wavy roll. If you did not start to feel it within 30 minutes, it was almost always bunk. Common knowledge in my social circle was that the pills that took longer to hit (45 min and beyond) were actually MDA. 

@Negi , great stuff. These charts are all really interesting.


----------



## psy997

mrsmokeweed said:


> Just for reference,



I've had stuff from Denver that looks just like that, but with a bit more of a blueish grey tint, that was super Meh for me. Interesting.


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> The Lacoste with 46.51/53.49 vs the Question Mark at 52.95/47.05



The interesting thing is that both of those have the exact same impurity profile.


----------



## G_Chem

I’m beginning to really like you Negi..

Hmm, could mean that route is more prone to slight enatiometric excess... Or nothing lol.

I think this slight isomer variation shows again how complicated this issue is.

To reiterate we have this isomer variation, impurities of all sorts, polymorphism, potential loss of magic, set and setting day of, etc.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> I’m beginning to really like you Negi..
> 
> Hmm, could mean that route is more prone to slight enatiometric excess... Or nothing lol.
> 
> I think this slight isomer variation shows again how complicated this issue is.
> 
> To reiterate we have this isomer variation, impurities of all sorts, polymorphism, potential loss of magic, set and setting day of, etc.
> 
> -GC



There was variation between good batches back when the batches were good. I recall one pill (a pink pill with RR on the top) and it was a super short, incredibly loved up roll that had me lying on a couch LITERALLY rolling around talking to my stuffed bear for about 2 hours and then I was 100% sober and done. Totally different from other pills that had me wandering from room to room, coming up with epic plans to move the stereo, and then getting too distracted by Vicks to actually move it.  All were good, euphoric, empathetic, music and touch enhanced rolls, but there were clear variations.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> The interesting thing is that both of those have the exact same impurity profile.



Interesting to look at this chart and assume that some of these samples are meh and some magic. Our answer could very well be on this chart. I can't help but notice that a lot of the samples that contain safrole do not contain 3,4-MDP2P. None of the samples that contain MDA contain safrole. My recent meh submissions both contained MDA. @Negi, which research article did this chart come from?


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> @Negi, which research article did this chart come from?



It came from someone's PHD thesis.
Here's another data point from it:


----------



## psy997

Highest dosed pill there is 69.3mg, with lots in the 40s and 50s. Very interesting.


----------



## indigoaura

psy997 said:


> Highest dosed pill there is 69.3mg, with lots in the 40s and 50s. Very interesting.



Very interesting, and so different from what we see today.


----------



## indigoaura

What is up with the elemental Ion analysis on pages 237-238? What are the implications there?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Can get some white/champagne  98% EC tested mdma also pressed into 200 mg pills but i need to stop using mdma but the rocks look so fucking good. Might just get one pill to go with my ketamine one night.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> What is up with the elemental Ion analysis on pages 237-238? What are the implications there?


Just filling out the thesis I assume. That's why there's also a long section about how much mass is lost/gained when pills are kept at different humidity and temperature levels.


----------



## G_Chem

Yea he really went all out gathering information...

So guys remember the numbers are in freebase (oh hey we can finally use that almost useless 84-16% figure!) that would mean those dosages were a bit higher but still pretty low compared to what we supposedly see today.

I do remember in the 00’s having to take usually 2-3 pills instead of 1 to 1 1/2.  I recall feeling they were usually 50-80mg MDMA HCl back then in my area too.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> Yea he really went all out gathering information...
> 
> So guys remember the numbers are in freebase (oh hey we can finally use that almost useless 84-16% figure!) that would mean those dosages were a bit higher but still pretty low compared to what we supposedly see today.
> 
> I do remember in the 00’s having to take usually 2-3 pills instead of 1 to 1 1/2.  I recall feeling they were usually 50-80mg MDMA HCl back then in my area too.
> 
> -GC



That is what is odd for me, because I never took more than one pill at a time. Sometimes, I even started with just half. I recall only a few times when one was underwhelming, but then the second pill got you where you needed to be. By all indications, the 120 mg I start with now is a much higher dose than what I was getting back then.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> That is what is odd for me, because I never took more than one pill at a time. Sometimes, I even started with just half. I recall only a few times when one was underwhelming, but then the second pill got you where you needed to be. By all indications, the 120 mg I start with now is a much higher dose than what I was getting back then.



Might be a few factors, but my guess is simply you started before me and probably better connected in those days than me.

In the 00’s before the drought I was just a high school kid, I did get lucky looking back.

That said Indigo, I was looking at some presses I was getting around 06 or so and saw that there was a DEA Microgram for them which didn’t specify the MDMA content but simply said “the loading was higher than average.”

In other words DEA was saying these pills had more MDMA than the average at the time.  These pills I needed 2 to really get where I do today on product.  I’d guess these were still only ~80mg.

Who knows though your area had a bangin scene for a long time, you probably had old timers back then who knew good pills and would bitch if the dose was too low.  Oh how times change.. 

There were a few pills in the 00’s that only took 1, that first Mint I talked about earlier, and these white Rolex’s that came through 08-09 or so.  Most took 2.

I should retract that 3 number cuz I’ve never taken 3 pills of any batch, most has been 2 1/2.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

mdma was alot more expensive per gram so they were alot more underweight but 60 mg of good mdma should have you in love rolling for at least 2 hours. I knew people back then taking always multiple pills at once sometimes 8 pills in a night.


----------



## G_Chem

TripSitterNZ said:


> mdma was alot more expensive per gram so they were alot more underweight but 60 mg of good mdma should have you in love rolling for at least 2 hours. I knew people back then taking always multiple pills at once sometimes 8 pills in a night.



I do remember it being god awful expensive back then...  I only got pure MDMA in the 00’s one time, it was absolutely amazing and very unlike a lot of the stuff I’ve taken today but coulda been a lot of factors.

I tried to buy a gram and ended up getting .8 or some shit for double the price I’d pay for an actual gram now.

I had zero clue how to use it being 16 at the time with no other people around me with much experience either.  So like I’d do with cocaine I sniffed the entire thing in 3-4 days doing little bumps here and there, I was in a state of semi rolling the whole time.  And when I was done? Not a lick of comedown...

That’s the thing that gets me about todays generation...  Like I was pretty good with MDMA but I did have a few stupid binge outs in my early days.  I didn’t lose the magic and I didn’t get any nasty LTC.  I can think of 2 times I used MDMA 4 days in a row, 4-5 3 night sessions, and I do 2 night sessions every year.

I never used too large of a dose in one night though and if we look at the research that’s where damage is most likely to occur.  Large doses not multi day sessions.

Maybe I got lucky but I feel that stuff was more rare then.

But back to that MDMA powder, it was so lush and smooth.  Even using it stupidly like that it was just amazing, albeit weaker overall than if I spaced out the doses..

-GC


----------



## mrsmokeweed

indigoaura said:


> That is what is odd for me, because I never took more than one pill at a time. Sometimes, I even started with just half. I recall only a few times when one was underwhelming, but then the second pill got you where you needed to be. By all indications, the 120 mg I start with now is a much higher dose than what I was getting back then.


60mg of amazing MDMA>>>>>>>>>>>200mg of D- MDMA

The mints of 08-12 or whatever, I doubt ever had more than 125mg in them, but if you double dropped.......hahahaahha


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Im starting to believe since dutch people don't really like americans they decided to ship all the trash mdma to them that wouldn't be touched in holland.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

TripSitterNZ said:


> Im starting to believe since dutch people don't really like americans they decided to ship all the trash mdma to them that wouldn't be touched in holland.


Obviously lol

Ever notice everyone has 'molly' now? And all the different colors and shit?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Im part dutch myself and the drugs the dutch locals were doing when i was there was a different level to the shit tourists get sold on the streets.


----------



## draculic acid69

Jmoda said:


> The question is, can the leuckart be done en masse with whats available today? I am assuming no right? (Ie, pmk glycidate) Are there routes where it could? Whatabout the helional->mda route?


Of course.its as available now as it ever was. Piperonal+nitroethane> MDA
was probably only done small scale.doing the leuckart is as easy as ever


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> What is up with the elemental Ion analysis on pages 237-238? What are the implications there?



it was used to identify the excipients used to make the tablets, and identify the counter ion of the drug, chlorine from hydrochloride for example magnesium stearate as an excipient was identified using this process.

Perhaps it was packing out the thesis  8) an expensive and time consuming way to pack out a thesis.


----------



## indigoaura

So, are we generally leaning towards a theory now that illicit MDMA contains trace impurities, and those impurities have the potential to influence the experience in a positive or negative fashion? Furthermore, in combination with individual genetics/tolerances etc. and minimal variations in isomer balance, the effects of "MDMA" can vary greatly from batch to batch with a myriad of mehnifestations and magifestations?


----------



## Anonsalon

It’s over for now.  There was a period of time that everyone was on the net posting “what happened to good cocaine”.  What happened to cola is a combination of law enforcement, supply routes and Politics/socioeconomics in a handful of South American countries.  Now fire coke is available by the ton.  Maybe One day things will turn around for MDMA and the real deal will resurface, maybe not.  At this moment, the magic, perfect and abundance of the real life changing E is over.  Analyze it all day long and argue about “losing the magic”, which is a total load of bullshit, btw.  People who knew what they were doing got popped, supplies of precursors dried up or (most likely) the younger generation has no idea what the real deal is and those younger folks are willing to buy shit that is cheaper and fucks them up in any way (economics).  Probably a combination of those reasons.  But it isn’t around unless you are one of a handful of people who sat on some white clovers or Mitsubishi’s from 1998.  That particular party is over dudes, and arguing about why it’s over is pointless.  My opinion.  One thing is for certain, there is no economic benefit to producing mass quantities of a social/dancing/love/party drug in the midst of a global pandemic.  There are no parties and clubs and concert halls are going bankrupt.  Probably best to let that dream go for now.  All the drugs people like doing at home on their couch are thriving.  Like I said, economics rules in this industry and the party is fucking over for now.


----------



## androoo

Anonsalon said:


> My opinion.  One thing is for certain, there is no economic benefit to producing mass quantities of a social/dancing/love/party drug in the midst of a global pandemic.  There are no parties and clubs and concert halls are going bankrupt.  Probably best to let that dream go for now.  All the drugs people like doing at home on their couch are thriving.  Like I said, economics rules in this industry and the party is fucking over for now.



I see your reasoning and see it as the perfect time for proper MDMA to come back (once covid is gone)..mdma appeared in the UK in the late 80's and it was the thing that youth needed most in a time of austerity


----------



## Anonsalon

I agr


androoo said:


> I see your reasoning and see it as the perfect time for proper MDMA to come back (once covid is gone)..mdma appeared in the UK in the late 80's and it was the thing that youth needed most in a time of austerity ♥


i agree.  When this shit is over, there will be a party like we have never seen.  At that point it wouldn’t surprise me if that party is fueled by the love drug.  I hope you’re right.


----------



## Jmoda

Anonsalon said:


> It’s over for now.  There was a period of time that everyone was on the net posting “what happened to good cocaine”.  What happened to cola is a combination of law enforcement, supply routes and Politics/socioeconomics in a handful of South American countries.  Now fire coke is available by the ton.  Maybe One day things will turn around for MDMA and the real deal will resurface, maybe not.  At this moment, the magic, perfect and abundance of the real life changing E is over.  Analyze it all day long and argue about “losing the magic”, which is a total load of bullshit, btw.  People who knew what they were doing got popped, supplies of precursors dried up or (most likely) the younger generation has no idea what the real deal is and those younger folks are willing to buy shit that is cheaper and fucks them up in any way (economics).  Probably a combination of those reasons.  But it isn’t around unless you are one of a handful of people who sat on some white clovers or Mitsubishi’s from 1998.  That particular party is over dudes, and arguing about why it’s over is pointless.  My opinion.  One thing is for certain, there is no economic benefit to producing mass quantities of a social/dancing/love/party drug in the midst of a global pandemic.  There are no parties and clubs and concert halls are going bankrupt.  Probably best to let that dream go for now.  All the drugs people like doing at home on their couch are thriving.  Like I said, economics rules in this industry and the party is fucking over for now.



Very odd juxtaposition of the pandemic and poor quality mdma being available. The pandemic has only been going on for a half year and will be over in another half to full year. Really wont have an impact on the "economics" of mdma. If people were willing to buy shitty mdma then, theyre gonma be willing to buy shitty mdma now....i mean if the molly today doesnt work and get you loved up and is only able to get you fucked up, what does social distancing/pandemic have anything to do with it.

Alcohol consumption is way up.

Quite contradictory logic.

In any case, i do agree that the people who knew what they were doing probably got canned, but i disagree that they can be the only ones. There are still people out there that know and there will be people who step up to the plate and learn.


----------



## G_Chem

Well apparently not all of em lol

Gonna be rolling tomorrow, should be fun.  I’m also finally gonna get my hands on that gram my brothers holding for me that he (as someone who has lost a fair amount of the magic) says is absolute amazing.

Yea I don’t really fully believe magic loss, at least not how many people describe it.  Most people’s magic loss sounds like change of product.

I watched my brother truly burn himself out and still seems to really enjoy the drug yet by his own accounts he’s lost the magic.  He still gets dilated pupils, pro social effects, stimulation, pretty much everything but to a lesser extent.  Not like you guys describe as the drug being completely different.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Anonsalon said:


> It’s over for now.  There was a period of time that everyone was on the net posting “what happened to good cocaine”.  What happened to cola is a combination of law enforcement, supply routes and Politics/socioeconomics in a handful of South American countries.  Now fire coke is available by the ton.  Maybe One day things will turn around for MDMA and the real deal will resurface, maybe not.  At this moment, the magic, perfect and abundance of the real life changing E is over.  Analyze it all day long and argue about “losing the magic”, which is a total load of bullshit, btw.  People who knew what they were doing got popped, supplies of precursors dried up or (most likely) the younger generation has no idea what the real deal is and those younger folks are willing to buy shit that is cheaper and fucks them up in any way (economics).  Probably a combination of those reasons.  But it isn’t around unless you are one of a handful of people who sat on some white clovers or Mitsubishi’s from 1998.  That particular party is over dudes, and arguing about why it’s over is pointless.  My opinion.  One thing is for certain, there is no economic benefit to producing mass quantities of a social/dancing/love/party drug in the midst of a global pandemic.  There are no parties and clubs and concert halls are going bankrupt.  Probably best to let that dream go for now.  All the drugs people like doing at home on their couch are thriving.  Like I said, economics rules in this industry and the party is fucking over for now.



You do realize that this thread started in April, 2016 and has nothing to do with the current pandemic shortage?

Also, I never felt like anyone was arguing about anything. Seems more like collaboration to me.

Determining the "why" is never pointless.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> You do realize that this thread started in April, 2016 and has nothing to do with the current pandemic shortage?
> 
> Also, I never felt like anyone was arguing about anything. Seems more like collaboration to me.
> 
> Determining the "why" is never pointless.



Especially when we just made major progress, and 90’s MDMA could be as simple as creating n-formyl-MDMA via Formic acid on MDMA, mix that up in the right ratios with some more MDMA and voila 90’s Leuckart MDMA without the Leuckart hassle.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> Especially when we just made major progress, and 90’s MDMA could be as simple as creating n-formyl-MDMA via Formic acid on MDMA, mix that up in the right ratios with some more MDMA and voila 90’s Leuckart MDMA without the Leuckart hassle.
> 
> -GC



But what incentive is there for the producers to give a shit about quality when the majority of their customer base don't? It seems to me that the younger generation are quite happy as long as they get fucked up...


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> Especially when we just made major progress, and 90’s MDMA could be as simple as creating n-formyl-MDMA via Formic acid on MDMA, mix that up in the right ratios with some more MDMA and voila 90’s Leuckart MDMA without the Leuckart hassle.



Sorry, I kinda glossed over the last couple of pages.  So there's a thought that magic is mdma plus an active impurity?  That would be surprising to me as I would have assumed early usage by pioneers would have had better purity but maybe I'm wrong.  Plus there's that paper (sorry, haven't got it handy) that found two impurities/byproducts that can inhibit mdma action, so I thought that's the safest bet.  But hey, all good theories to test with a decent analysis of a meh vs magic sample I guess?


----------



## Negi

Anonsalon said:


> a social/dancing/love/party drug in the midst of a global pandemic. There are no parties and clubs and concert halls are going bankrupt



I've noticed this focus on raves and parties quite a bit in the thread, as a guess I would say it seems like most of the thread was introduced to MDMA at old school raves/parties and had most of their experiences in those places. MDMA is a lot more than just a "party drug" though. I wonder if the initial MDMA therapists thought there was something wrong with the MDMA produced in the 90s when kids would take it and dance to "repetitive beats" for hours at a time.



F.U.B.A.R. said:


> It seems to me that the younger generation are quite happy as long as they get fucked up...


That is absolutely not a new phenomenon, based on some of those old pill reports I was reading.


----------



## indigoaura

Most of my MDMA experiences have been at my home or the home of a friend. Although I have had a decent number of live music events thrown into the mix, I would say at least 85% have been home activities.


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Especially when we just made major progress, and 90’s MDMA could be as simple as creating n-formyl-MDMA via Formic acid on MDMA, mix that up in the right ratios with some more MDMA and voila 90’s Leuckart MDMA without the Leuckart hassle.
> 
> -GC


Nope.sorry to burst your bubble but nope.


----------



## draculic acid69

draculic acid69 said:


> Nope.sorry to burst your bubble but nope.


U would need MDA.and seeing as that appears so rarely compared to mdma just forget about it


----------



## draculic acid69

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> But what incentive is there for the producers to give a shit about quality when the majority of their customer base don't? It seems to me that the younger generation are quite happy as long as they get fucked up...


There wouldn't be a 300page discussion about it if ppl were happy with it.


----------



## Negi

draculic acid69 said:


> There wouldn't be a 300page discussion about it if ppl were happy with it.



Most of the posts in the thread are from a relatively small group of users.


----------



## draculic acid69

Negi said:


> Most of the posts in the thread are from a relatively small group of users.



The last 50pages or so are.before that it's a whole varied lot


----------



## indigoaura

Yeah, I don't think it is a small group. I have seen this exact topic come up all over the internet, on random Reddit pages, in comment sections etc. A lot of people talk about it but lack the motivation to really try to figure it out, or they assume it is them, or they think they just lost their good connection or whatever. People will send me little screenshots of comments where this is being discussed. Now, I do think there is a larger group of young users who probably cannot tell the difference, or they like what is currently being provided to them. I think the Meh product is getting bought without an issue; I don't doubt that.

Shit, look at me. I keep buying it. It is partially hope that "this time it will be different," but honestly I use the meh product even when I know exactly what the experience will be. Approximating joy is sometimes more appealing than a known lack of it.


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> I keep buying it. It is partially hope that "this time it will be different,"



Interesting. How many different batches of meh have you gotten since your good source disappeared?


----------



## Negi

Does the discussion of the topic match the perceived scale of the problem though? Based on the information in this thread, it would appear that the majority of the MDMA in the world is meh. I say that based on the fact that it seems that everyone who has noticed the "mehDMA" situation finds that nearly all the MDMA available to them is meh. Is there even anyone in the thread who has been able to find a solid consistent source of "magic" MDMA after encountering meh? People mentioning finding a lucky batch here or there, but I don't think anyone has said "yeah the MDMA here is great again, weird that was".


----------



## draculic acid69

Negi said:


> Does the discussion of the topic match the perceived scale of the problem though? Based on the information in this thread, it would appear that the majority of the MDMA in the world is meh. I say that based on the fact that it seems that everyone who has noticed the "mehDMA" situation finds that nearly all the MDMA available to them is meh. Is there even anyone in the thread who has been able to find a solid consistent source of "magic" MDMA after encountering meh? People mentioning finding a lucky batch here or there, but I don't think anyone has said "yeah the MDMA here is great again, weird that was".


It's obviously a very large scale world wide problem so it's not just one shitty cook.if it was one shitty cook it would be a Heisenberg size operation of 100+kilos a wk.


----------



## draculic acid69

What I don't get is why someone who makes meh can want to intentionally keep putting shitty stuff out there especially if they know it's meh bcoz theyve had magic before.i don't get how someone can keep buying hundreds of kilos knowing it's meh either


----------



## Kaden_Nite

Because mehDMA is not a chemical, it's just an expression that a few people here use to sum up the effect that they get when they take MDMA.

Every batch of purported MehDMA has tested completely differently and there is no consensus on it's effect.

The only constant is that people who get certain unpleasant side effects from MDMA, and then blame the MDMA, keep taking MDMA, keep getting those unpleasant side effects, and keep blaming the MDMA.


----------



## v5zS56tvk

Put me in the camp of a user who only introduced himself to MDMA later in life (older millennial) and was never part of the club/rave scenes, who probably has never had a legitimate MDMA experience like the ones you folks speak of. I'd say my first experience was great, but using the same product a second time months later produced a clearly meh experience. Only using recommended amounts of 1.5mg/kg bodyweight, never multiple days in a row, never less than 2-3months apart, about 11 experiences so far since I began. Fingers crossed that I'll come across a legitimate source at some point. All I know is that the DN seems to be flooded with basically only cheap meh product and very high mg dosage pills.


----------



## DopeM

Why not grab a high mg pill and split it?

Also, set & setting still play a role here.  What are you doing when you are taking it?


----------



## indigoaura

@Kaden_Nite night I genuinely do not understand why you keep coming back to this thread, as you clearly do not agree with the premise or have any respect for the people here, our opinions, or the work that we have done. What is your objective? What are you trying to accomplish? I truly do not understand. I am not trying to be rude, but if there was another thread on BL where a bunch of people were talking about something I did not buy into, I would not keep returning to the thread. So much of what you claim in your brief post is incorrect. Most of the batches I have talked about here have been cross-checked by other people, and I am not just sharing my personal reactions. I have also been very open in this thread and other BL threads about exploring the possibility that the issue is specifically ME, but my observations of products are continuously backed up by others. There have been DW batches tested by multiple people in this thread, or did you miss that part? Other people who post here also have shared multi-user reports. There IS a shared consensus on effects, which has been summarized endlessly and which you would know if you approached any of this with an open mind rather than constantly just seeking to shut everything down for reasons unbeknownst to the rest of us. 

@Negi I truly think it is regional and social. If we had some kind of heat map and were able to track where people were, what they . , and the ratio of good to meh experiences, I think patterns would emerge. 

For instance, I am hesitant to blame my problems on my region as opposed to a social connectivity issue. I know that I don't know anyone here. I used to be more connected, and now I am not. I don't even know anywhere to buy weed in this city, and I know there is a lot of weed around. @fasterfb I had one supplier of meh product from 2006 or so until more recently when I started experimenting with the DW. I know one guy, locally, and have occasionally worked with him. Total since 2006? I think I have had 6 different batches if you consider one source/chemist to be one batch. I will count more specifically later to confirm.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

draculic acid69 said:


> There wouldn't be a 300page discussion about it if ppl were happy with it.



It would seem that most of the people not happy with it are older users though...


----------



## Negi

v5zS56tvk said:


> I'd say my first experience was great, but using the same product a second time months later produced a clearly meh experience



If you had different reactions from the same product that clearly isn't a mehDMA problem.



indigoaura said:


> I truly think it is regional and social.


From the thread it seems much larger than that. Like you said, people have tested multiple (large) DW sources and found them to be meh. People have bought some of the most popular and widely circulated pills in Europe (QDance) and said they are meh. People have bought probably the most well known pills on the US west coast (G6) and found them to be meh. Personally I think trying pills is a waste of time as it adds the unknown of what dosage was actually taken (and the thread will just claim they must have been copies, etc), but those represent much more than the 56g the local dealer is bringing in from their sources.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> If you had different reactions from the same product that clearly isn't a mehDMA problem.
> 
> 
> From the thread it seems much larger than that. Like you said, people have tested multiple (large) DW sources and found them to be meh. People have bought some of the most popular and widely circulated pills in Europe (QDance) and said they are meh. People have bought probably the most well known pills on the US west coast (G6) and found them to be meh. Personally I think trying pills is a waste of time as it adds the unknown of what dosage was actually taken (and the thread will just claim they must have been copies, etc), but those represent much more than the 56g the local dealer is bringing in from their sources.



But then there seem to be people up in the Northern part of the USA like @G_Chem and others who are consistently getting good product, and others in Canada have reported similar experiences. When I say regional, what I mean is that some regions do not seem to have the meh product in as wide of circulation as other areas. It has to be a synth route issue, with major distributors who use that synth route producing subpar product. And, as someone else suggested, maybe individual genetics are playing in part in how sensitive people are to the issue.


----------



## Negi

Sure, but the pills used by hundreds of thousands of people have been proclaimed to be meh. MDMA sourced from vendors with thousands of sales, who are shipping out up to 100g at a time, is meh. If a popular pill that is mainly sold in the SoCal rave scene (G6) made people feel sleepy and unwilling to dance you think it would be mentioned. I'm just frustrated how the explanation always boils down to "kids these days wouldn't recognize euphoria and energy if it slapped them in the face".

This also really brings out the shifting nature of how the effects of mehDMA are described in the thread. When I was trying to narrow down how people experienced it, the responses were mainly "it feels like the anti-MDMA, noticeable for missing all the things you like about it", "You feel worse than before you took it" and "like being on low dose xanax". People talked about it as if it were a mental poison that would ruin the experience of any other drug it was combined with, like LSD or 2cb. But now it's similar enough to magic MDMA that lots of people never noticed the change, or just blamed it on losing some of the magic. I was reading back through the thread to learn a bit more and this time last year it was arguing about if mehDMA was a far worse or far superior drug to methylone.


----------



## Simosom

Everyone should be honest, next time while taking MDMA ask your self, may i came close to some of the best Erowind experience, or, does this shit honestly can be used for *MDMA*-Assisted Psychotherapy. 
What kind of set and setting is used during psychotherapy anyway? What about tolerance, what if we need more than one therapy? 
Soon, sides will be switched, young people will be telling us what magic MDMA experience is.


----------



## Negi

Simosom said:


> does this shit honestly can be used for *MDMA*-Assisted Psychotherapy.



That's one of the reasons I'm skeptical. I'm involved with the /r/MDMAtherapy subreddit, which has over 9000 users now. The vast majority of the users posting experiences are using underground therapists or friends, so they aren't getting the MAPS produced GMP MDMA. Now one could certainly argue that some of the therapists would have access to high quality supplies of MDMA, but people who are using street sourced product with a friend sitting for them are having very therapeutic and healing experiences. There are almost no posts where people say "I tried it and didn't get any therapeutic effects". The few that have occurred can usually be tied to uncertain dosages (we always try and discourage people from using pills for this reason) and on one occasion someone took it solo and became distracted by some of the effects (they got very horny so it didn't sound like mehDMA).

There's another subreddit /r/MDMASolo, that was created after it's founder had his ideas rejected by the main MDMAtherapy subreddit (he feels that ADHD and schizophrenia can be cured using MDMA therapy). Their focus is on the solo MDMA experience, so no therapist supplied MDMA involved. A glance at the posts there shows again that the only real "It didn't work" post has someone taking pills of an unknown dosage.

I think a key thing to note is that it seems like the majority of the therapeutic users are MDMA naive, they've never taken it before and have only sought it out to trying and cure their traumas. This means they usually don't have a well known source and have to obtain it from friends of friends, or ordering it from a DNM. The fact that there aren't a number of reported mehDMA experiences despite many people fumbling around and taking the fist MDMA they can get their hands on is pretty telling to me.


----------



## indigoaura

So, what is your hypothesis, @Negi ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Have yet to seen anybody here test acutal legit dutch pills though. First they are very hard to bring in outside of holland and Germany due to customs alot easier to get through straight powder or crystals. Most pressies are just repressed crystal once it arrives in the country at that point you have no idea what the mdma looked like or the quality of it. This is usually done on very poor mdma which looks very bad and wouldn't be managed to sold if somebody saw it so instead they all pressed in whatever country the person lives in. 

You can get smaller amounts of legit dutch pills in but its still nothing in the massive amounts and its risky for the person doing it if its  DNM. Instead proper smugglers and international syndicates should be bringing in mdma from legit dutch labs by the hundreds of kgs this is where you get alot higher product than some teenagers trying to make quick bank ordering mail direct from holland to get themselves arrested one day and usually very subpar and seedy groups selling it to them that also sell heroin and crack so they have no interest in making sure that mdma is acutally good and will give you the cheapest trash they can make bank on.


----------



## indigoaura

So, this is a random anecdote to add here, but I think it is relevant.

A friend of mind has this special needs dog. The dog has something wrong with it, and it cannot urinate without a medication. Easy enough to know when the meds are working, because when the meds are working the dog urinates and if the dog does not get the meds, it swells up and cannot go. 

Anyway, she told me that when her vet changed the brand of the medication, the dog could no longer urinate. She had to call around and find a compounding pharmacy to make the med because the generic brand did not work for the dog. As soon as she gave the dog the compounded version, the dog could urinate again.

Same dose. Same med. Different brand. 

The compounding pharmacy told her that sometimes the additives and fillers in off-brand tablets interfere in efficacy.

@Negi I have commented here several times that I felt like MehDMA may actually work well for quiet, solo introspection. I also commented that it seemed to activate a semi hypnagogic state if you were relaxed enough. How do we know that MehDMA does not have therapeutic value? How would a drug-naive user be able to differentiate what drug they had received?


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ I don't feel like there is any certain way to actually obtain legit Dutch pills here in the USA. Anything can be copycatted, apparently. I was ready to order some of the bi-layer pills, but then people here told me that those same pills had been re-produced out of Brazil with the same press.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> @TripSitterNZ I don't feel like there is any certain way to actually obtain legit Dutch pills here in the USA. Anything can be copycatted, apparently. I was ready to order some of the bi-layer pills, but then people here told me that those same pills had been re-produced out of Brazil with the same press.


With how intense US security is these days compared to pre 9/11 where people could just bring in pressed pills in pillowcases computer cases and vitamin jars that really shut down alot of smuggling routes they were big back in the days now it has to be done through ports or the mail system. America is a very big country aswell so the amount of mdma required to smuggle through the border by the dutch to meet the demand would be pretty large making it seem less likely that a majority of mdma encountered is truly from holland. Maybe the cartels are making mdma aswell that is trash just like their meth coke and heroin quality in mexico all very low compared to what the compounds are in their specialist countries.


----------



## Negi

I suspect that there are a number of different factors that can lead to a "meh" MDMA experience, judging by the considerably different descriptions that people in the thread have given for the feeling of mehDMA. This obviously complicates identifying any individual problem. Based off the fact that many of the people who are experiencing mehDMA have taken a a considerable number of total MDMA doses, and found that their peak MDMA experiences happened in their youth (or at least a number of years ago), I think that age and total uses has a modulating effect on the MDMA experience for people (clearly affected considerably by different genetic profiles). I say this as in general, the reports of new users (especially young ones) match the claimed effects of magic MDMA. Would this explain the change in MDMA for every user in the thread? No, there are likely other factors involved, some of which might be synthesis or impurity related. I'm certainly willing to look into that, and I've been the most active in digging up research and information that could identify any such factors in the most recent part of the thread.

We know that serotonin and dopamine receptor density declines with age, so I would actually be very surprised if someone got the exact same effects today as they had 15-20 years ago, especially if you add in the change in set that the intervening years of lived experience will have created. I'm not trying to explain away the whole thread here, just put forward my main hypothesis.



indigoaura said:


> How do we know that MehDMA does not have therapeutic value? How would a drug-naive user be able to differentiate what drug they had received?



I am basing that off the fact that on the list of effects, meh had "No" in the *Feelings of empathy* column. People have also frequently mentioned negative emotions arriving on MDMA, which doesn't match the "fear erasure" that is hypothesized to be another key MDMA effect for re-interpreting traumatic events.


----------



## Rectify

*What Is Wrong With The MDMA Available Today?*

It is generated largely from PMK-glycidate, which has a piperonylic oxygen bound to itself.  This is a form of oxidation or, put simply, burning.  This hypothesis is totally testable via NMR spectroscopy.  Have at it, if you wish.  Start with eugenol instead.


----------



## Negi

Rectify said:


> *What Is Wrong With The MDMA Available Today?*
> 
> It is generated largely from PMK-glycidate, which has a piperonylic oxygen bound to itself.  This is a form of oxidation or, put simply, burning.  This hypothesis is totally testable via NMR spectroscopy.  Have at it, if you wish.  Start with eugenol instead.


So what effect does that have?


----------



## psy997

Thanks for bringing the points that you are, Negi. I think we need to contend with them if we are to take ourselves seriously in our endeavor. It also cannot be argued that you have done a considerable amount of quality research here with respect to papers, too. 

I think the lack of "i didn't experience therapeutic effects" posts on those subreddits is a good data point. Is it possible that Meh still has the therapeutic effects? Well, maybe. Or, maybe not, and somehow the issue is more isolate than imagined. Or, we're all experiencing loss of magic. Though, I doubt the lattee.


----------



## Negi

It's not just the therapy subreddits either. I've spent a lot of time on the main /r/MDMA subreddit, and if you look past the memes on the front page to the actual reports and content, there aren't any real signs of mehDMA (based on the signs from the table). I like to focus on first time reports, as it removes any possibility of magic loss or tolerance being an issue and like the therapeutic users they are generally taking the first MDMA they can find, so it's the stuff that is broadly available in the community or from popular DNM vendors (who are probably also supplying a good number of the community dealers in the reddit age bracket). People report the classic MDMA effects - overwhelming euphoria, melting into music, wanting to hug everyone, telling your friends you love them, talking for hours. Even when people report poor experiences, they generally don't match up with the mehDMA effects (wanting to be alone, feeling sleepy). Usually they can be tied to either untested pills (part of the US still have lots of bunk pills and meth), or people being on SSRIs and not realizing they will dull the effects of MDMA.

Again it's really the absence of reports matching mehDMA effects that I find the most noticeable. We know that people will speak up and ask questions if the experience isn't what they expect, because of all the people with meth bombs or on SSRIs.


----------



## Rectify

It weakens the effect.


----------



## fasterfb

Negi said:


> I've spent a lot of time on the main /r/MDMA subreddit, and if you look past the memes on the front page to the actual reports and content, there aren't any real signs of mehDMA



Yes, I have noticed the same thing. Pretty much all positive reports, except for the odd case as you stated. And also 'help me' posts from those who did too much too often.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Negi said:


> ...judging by the considerably different descriptions that people in the thread have given for the feeling of mehDMA....



What different descriptions?  It's all been remarkably consistent - e.g. lack of euphoria and somewhat sedating.


----------



## Simosom

@Negi 
"on the main /r/MDMA subreddit, there aren't any real signs of mehDMA (based on the signs from the table)" 
This is just not true, there are many reports where first time users asking why they did not get desired effects, or how magic has being lost after only one or two usages. Most of them are not even aware of mehdma topics.


----------



## Jmoda

Simosom said:


> @Negi
> "on the main /r/MDMA subreddit, there aren't any real signs of mehDMA (based on the signs from the table)"
> This is just not true, there are many reports where first time users asking why they did not get desired effects, or how magic has being lost after only one or two usages. Most of them are not even aware of mehdma topics.




There is a difference between mehDMA and just complete bunk shit. Reddit has too wide a spectrum to reliably provide us with people who are clearly getting consistent "legit" shit


----------



## Negi

Simosom said:


> This is just not true, there are many reports where first time users asking why they did not get desired effects


Yes, but they aren't say that they felt sleepy and didn't want to be with anyone. I didn't say that everyone's first time was perfect, but that the negative experiences don't map onto what this thread has laid out as the main symptoms of mehDMA. Also if you go into the threads and ask - was the MDMA tested - What dose did you take - Are you on any medications you can find out the cause of nearly all of those negative experiences.


----------



## Simosom

For most users here mehDMA is not full garbage, it is still better than methylone or any other rc shit, even if it lacking any aspects of magic. 
I can see how first time users can be happy whith this product. In combination with super set and setting it can provide amazing time, but nowhere close to life changing experience, or magic we are all looking for.


----------



## Negi

So is mehDMA literally now just "exactly like regular MDMA, except you've lost the magic"? One of the reasons I followed this thread and dove into the science was because initially people talked about it as a distinct experience, something that didn't match up with the symptoms of MDMA overuse. I asked about set and setting and was told that you could be standing in front of your favorite band in a cheering crowd and want to be at home with a blanket.

This really goes back to how I think different people is this thread have different causes for their mehDMA experiences.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Negi said:


> So is mehDMA literally now just "MDMA, except you've lost the magic"? One of the reasons I followed this thread and dove into the science was because initially people talked about it as a distinct experience, something that didn't match up with the symptoms of MDMA overuse. I asked about set and setting and was told that you could be standing in front of your favorite band in a cheering crowd and want to be at home with a blanket.
> 
> This really goes back to how I think different people is this thread have different causes for their mehDMA experiences.



Most of the time I find MehDMA very enjoyable - just not as enjoyable as it can be. The come up is often intense, but gets nowhere. Once the come up is over, that's it. No plateau. Just up, then over. Total duration 1.5 - 3 hours - even with redoses. A higher initial dose doesn't improve the experience, just makes the come up more intense. No desire to move about or interact, just to wallow in the physical sensations until I fall asleep. It is like a different  drug entirely.


----------



## Simosom

It is distinct experience, not always bad. There had been times during the rolls when i was telling myself it will be last time taking it.
Distinct to the level that i can recognize it among different batches with sedative, energy, empathy variations. 
I am using it only because i like techno scene and going to the parties, still hoping that will pop up some magic surprise on the way.


----------



## Simosom

@F.U.B.A.R. 
Funny thing is how effects of mehDMA are not that subjective as loss of magic or different set and setting should be.


----------



## Negi

Is there anyone here who had once lost "the magic" due to MDMA abuse (and recovered it later obviously) that can explain what that felt like to them and compare it to mehDMA? I also remember someone farther back in the thread who compared mehDMA to the experience of trying to roll for the third or fourth day in a row, anyone remember that or find the comparison apt?


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> That's one of the reasons I'm skeptical. I'm involved with the /r/MDMAtherapy subreddit, which has over 9000 users now. The vast majority of the users posting experiences are using underground therapists or friends, so they aren't getting the MAPS produced GMP MDMA. Now one could certainly argue that some of the therapists would have access to high quality supplies of MDMA, but people who are using street sourced product with a friend sitting for them are having very therapeutic and healing experiences. There are almost no posts where people say "I tried it and didn't get any therapeutic effects". The few that have occurred can usually be tied to uncertain dosages (we always try and discourage people from using pills for this reason) and on one occasion someone took it solo and became distracted by some of the effects (they got very horny so it didn't sound like mehDMA).
> 
> There's another subreddit /r/MDMASolo, that was created after it's founder had his ideas rejected by the main MDMAtherapy subreddit (he feels that ADHD and schizophrenia can be cured using MDMA therapy). Their focus is on the solo MDMA experience, so no therapist supplied MDMA involved. A glance at the posts there shows again that the only real "It didn't work" post has someone taking pills of an unknown dosage.
> 
> I think a key thing to note is that it seems like the majority of the therapeutic users are MDMA naive, they've never taken it before and have only sought it out to trying and cure their traumas. This means they usually don't have a well known source and have to obtain it from friends of friends, or ordering it from a DNM. The fact that there aren't a number of reported mehDMA experiences despite many people fumbling around and taking the fist MDMA they can get their hands on is pretty telling to me.



I’m also involved in that community and we perceive it in two very different ways as we’ve already discussed.

And I do indeed get nearly identical, if not better, effects nowadays similar to 15+yrs ago.

Finally, G6 is garbage...  This I know for a fact.  The taste of those pills were different than any MDMA product I’ve ever had, and all 3 individuals who tried it reported feeling a blunting of their current experience once eating those G6 boosters.

Back with more later.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Is there anyone here who had once lost "the magic" due to MDMA abuse (and recovered it later obviously) that can explain what that felt like to them and compare it to mehDMA? I also remember someone farther back in the thread who compared mehDMA to the experience of trying to roll for the third or fourth day in a row, anyone remember that or find the comparison apt?



I just made that comparison awhile ago, you gotta read better my man.  I just talked with my brother more this weekend as he’s definitely lost the magic.

As he puts it, you stop getting that “love the world” feeling and instead it’s more of a pleasure/euphoria drug.  He’s still stimulated, still euphoric, nothing like described here.

We just rolled this weekend on 90mg + 40mg an hour later.  Took it at 1:00pm and felt down around 7pm, surprised too by how strong it was at this lower than normal dose.  A batch I’m familiar with...

He didn’t get sleepy, or introverted, or any of that shit.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> I’m also involved in that community and we perceive it in two very different ways as we’ve already discussed.


The specific post you quoted is discussing the MDMA therapy based Reddit communities, not the main MDMA one. Do you believe that mehDMA would have the same therapeutic effects as magic MDMA?



G_Chem said:


> He didn’t get sleepy, or introverted, or any of that shit.


People have been repeatedly telling me that mehDMA doesn't need to match those symptoms at all.

How about you, can mehDMA be a very enjoyable drug for you? Can the right set and setting make it feel amazing?


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi 

I am happy to answer any question you have about my personal experience with MehDMA. This is a long thread, and a lot of the comments get lost in it. Some of the things you are saying, however, are not my impression from having been an active participant in this thread for years now.

I personally feel that the observations of MehDMA have been remarkably consistent from person to person. There are small deviations, yes, but overall, people report the same things. That was why I tried to compile it all into a chart that would represent the majority of statements in this thread. 

It can be hard to put the effects of drugs into words. I'm not Hunter S. Thompson, although I might have similar lofty aspirations.

One thing to keep in mind about Reddit or any other similar community is that most people are not testing their pills/crystals. I think that for many people, when they buy some stuff and it is not that great, they chalk it up to just being a bad batch and they move on. They assume it is something other than MDMA. They don't post about it, because it wasn't that impressive to begin with. The harm reduction community is a little bit different, because the harm reduction community is looking to test and know what things are in a more specific way. Even among the crew I used to hang with, people rarely wanted to test pills. When shit didn't hit right, "Oh well, that is just part of the deal when you are buying drugs." Not everyone is an analytical thinker. Not everyone wants to know "why" about everything.



> I asked about set and setting and was told that you could be standing in front of your favorite band in a cheering crowd and want to be at home with a blanket.



That was my story. This has happened to me more than once. On one occasion, I wanted to fight someone. Rather than feeling any camaraderie or love for the other people in the audience, I legit wanted to punch someone in the face.



> It is distinct experience, not always bad. There had been times during the rolls when i was telling myself it will be last time taking it.


 I totally agree with this @Simosom.



> Do you believe that mehDMA would have the same therapeutic effects as magic MDMA?


 I think it would be different, but I think there is some deep introspection potential there. It does not create that safe "everything is good" space, but it does cause you to look inward. 



> People have been repeatedly telling me that mehDMA doesn't need to match those symptoms at all.


 Who is telling you that? Those are the most commonly stated characteristics I have seen noted in this thread.

As I said before, I am open to other explanations. However, if the problem was with me, then I would expect that at some point I would have given this MehDMA to someone and they would have blown up with a full on, euphoric, MDMA joyride. Someone, at some point, would have had a typically magical experience from the stuff. ESPECIALLY one of the drug-naive people that I have shared it with. How likely is it that all of these people all felt it was sub-par if the problem is with the people?


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> I think that for many people, when they buy some stuff and it is not that great, they chalk it up to just being a bad batch and they move on. They assume it is something other than MDMA. They don't post about it, because it wasn't that impressive to begin with.


For the first time someone takes MDMA? Remember with a first MDMA experience there isn't anything to compare it against. Multiple people in this thread, you included have told me that younger users must simply be accepting mehDMA as the real experience. Why wouldn't they post a trip report about it? Even if they though it was a poor experience they would likely post about it. There's a meme on the main Reddit drugs subreddit that every day or so someone makes a post about how they just tried cocaine and were very underwhelmed, and that it's a shitty expensive drug. Nobody is doing that for MDMA.



indigoaura said:


> I personally feel that the observations of MehDMA have been remarkably consistent from person to person.


This is what I am talking about: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...available-today.791073/page-244#post-14845044
I asked if people get any euphoria from mehDMA, and I get several responses that there is none. To quote:


psy997 said:


> None for me. Every time I end up feeling worse than before I took it.





ThreePointCircle said:


> None.  I used to describe the euphoria of magic as being so intense it was like being crushed and exploded all at the same time, but pleasurable.  Mehdma and mehda don't have any.  Sometimes you get a feeling like it's about to happen, but it never does.  That's what I miss the most.





nznity said:


> meh feels like it's about to begin the comeup and then "poof" fades away. Real MDMA first gives you energy then it dissapears for a good 10min and THEN BAM, you get lightheaded and your whole body starts rushing you feel so fucking alive. omg i wanna roll after this shit finally fucking ends.





indigoaura said:


> I would be lying if I said I did not get something out of the MehDMA experience, even if it is just a slightly altered reality for a few hours. It really does remind me of a low dose of xanax. I do feel relaxed when I take it, but it is not euphoric at all.


Everyone damned it with the faintest praise. Yet now people are saying things like


Simosom said:


> In combination with super set and setting it can provide amazing time


When I went back to the discussion about methylone vs mehDMA


Hilopsilo said:


> Whaaaaaaat, c'mon, I agree that methylone isn't a good comparison, but do you really feel that MehDMA is worse than Methylone? To me there is hardly any comparison at all and you'd know the second you took methylone that what you had is not MDMA even if you're a complete noob to such drugs. MehDMA is similar enough that, well, if it was such an obvious difference to everyone there'd be a lot more noise around this. The similarities between the crappy MDMA and the magic stuff are quite close


I would say there is a fairly wide gap between feeling relaxed and having an amazing time (especially if set and setting has no effect on it), and most of the chart you created is a large list of the effects of magic MDMA that meh lacks, based on that the similarities should not be quite close. To one user it's so close in experience that it's easy to see that some people wouldn't notice the difference, and yet to someone else


F.U.B.A.R. said:


> It is like a different drug entirely.



Do all of these read like they are describing the same mehDMA to you?


----------



## draculic acid69

Rectify said:


> *What Is Wrong With The MDMA Available Today?*
> 
> It is generated largely from PMK-glycidate, which has a piperonylic oxygen bound to itself.  This is a form of oxidation or, put simply, burning.  This hypothesis is totally testable via NMR spectroscopy.  Have at it, if you wish.  Start with eugenol instead.


Piperonylic oxygen bound to itself, burning,start from eugenol are all just terms u read and put into a sentence that doesn't  make sense or help or state anything accurate.the only thing u got right is most mdma is being made from pmk glycidate.


----------



## Kaden_Nite

indigoaura said:


> @Kaden_Nite I genuinely do not understand why you keep coming back to this thread, as you clearly do not agree with the premise


No, you clearly don't understand - believing that people shouldn't comment if they disagree with you is narcissistic and immature.

Bluelight has always been a place for dispelling unproven drug myths, it's sad to see people using this site to spread false rumours about drugs and even sadder seeing newcomers buying into it.

Feel free to share your experiences Indigo, but you are completely out of your depths discussing chemistry and that is very apparent when you have to ask if al/hg is the synth that uses mercury, or ask what a regioisomer is after emailing a testing facility and telling them that's what they need to look for..

It's strange that you have no problem sending your stuff to be tested by them when you're certain that they will tell you something that fits with your pre-determined conclusions, but then question their abilities and motivations when they tell you that it's MDMA.

Psy997 had the audacity to call a trained chemist 'ignorant' for not buying into your 'mehDMA' theory.. meanwhile, he hadn't even so much as read the Wikipedia article on GC/MS (after three years of saying that it must be a flawed method of analysis).


indigoaura said:


> What is your objective? What are you trying to accomplish?


I'm wondering the same thing about you. You seem more intent on getting others to believe that there is a microscopic flaw lurking in (and ruining) the world's supply of MDMA than you are in actually getting an answer as to whether or not that's true.

Yes, there are a vast range of impurities in street drugs. No, your reaction isn't caused by them. You need to stop taking MDMA.

Anyone getting negative effects from any drug: stop buying it, stop taking it. This mehDMA bullshit is sending a message to people that if they react negatively to a drug, (even if it's happening repeatedly, from different batches, that have been lab tested), the reason for their reaction must be that they aren't getting the magic stuff.

No. That is idiotic.


indigoaura said:


> So much of what you claim in your brief post is incorrect.


No, not wrong. Just beyond your capacity to understand. Look up the definition of chemical compound. MehDMA is not a chemical compound. It is a made-up term to describe an experience. You have tried unsuccessfully to pin it down to some invisible chemical, and you can't. You should be happy that you have an answer, not disappointed because it's not the answer you want.


indigoaura said:


> There IS a shared consensus on effects,


Clearly, there isn't. Effects range from:
-hiding under a blanket all night
-fun to take at concerts
-makes listening to music undesirable
-inactive at 400 milligrams
-makes you feel sick for a week after
-totally unpleasant
-almost as good as real MDMA

Yeah, very consistent


----------



## Hilopsilo

Christ more nearly 100 pages since covid lol, anyone up to date enough to give me a run down of anything useful or interesting thats come up? or has it been purely unlimited banter


----------



## Simosom

@Negi 
Why did you cut my post and took it to a different context?


----------



## Simosom

Everything has been discussed number of times, lets move on. 
We are getting in the loop, again.


----------



## Negi

Hilopsilo said:


> Christ more nearly 100 pages since covid lol, anyone up to date enough to give me a run down of anything useful or interesting thats come up? or has it been purely unlimited banter



Here's a few of what I consider to be the most recent highlights:

A mysterious new impurity was detected by South Korean researchers - the thread spent a few pages investigating

How long does a roll actually last? - The thread spent a few pages arguing

The current head of Dancesafe talks about the theory on a podcast - The thread has opinions

I dig up some information about impurities in different synthesis methods - Discussion ensues

The past 3-4 pages have been discussing the apparent lack of mehDMA experience reports in the wider MDMA using internet (mainly Reddit) and trying to reconcile the different descriptions people have of it.



Simosom said:


> Why did you cut my post and took it to a different context?



Were you not saying that mehDMA can be an amazing experience at times? Here's the full quote:



Simosom said:


> For most users here mehDMA is not full garbage, it is still better than methylone or any other rc shit, even if it lacking any aspects of magic.
> I can see how first time users can be happy whith this product. In combination with super set and setting it can provide amazing time, but nowhere close to life changing experience, or magic we are all looking for.



I wasn't trying to cut it to make it sound like you thought it was just like magic MDMA or anything, but just to show that it didn't match up with people who get zero euphoria from it and find that it makes every experience worse.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Negi said:


> Does the discussion of the topic match the perceived scale of the problem though? Based on the information in this thread, it would appear that the majority of the MDMA in the world is meh. I say that based on the fact that it seems that everyone who has noticed the "mehDMA" situation finds that nearly all the MDMA available to them is meh*. Is there even anyone in the thread who has been able to find a solid consistent source of "magic" MDMA after encountering meh*? People mentioning finding a lucky batch here or there, but I don't think anyone has said "yeah the MDMA here is great again, weird that was".



Yes, I have. But I am in no way outright endorsing or agreeing with whatever's been said since I last posted here, as it seems we can hardly come to consensus about what defines the MehDMA. But I now have a solid consistent source of "magic" MDMA, it reliably produces the effects I've known and loved for 10 years now. With the amount of different batches that come and go through my source, while they all test more or less the same, FWIW the effects do seem to vary dose for dose. Those handling it seem to be very aware of the differences in quality, and then kinda becomes a bit more plausible not all good-testing MDMA is created equal. The people I know actively seek user feedback, and while I they haven't documented this extensively, there is most certainly batches that get a lot better feedback than others (the crappy stuff we had, had nearly 30 people bummed out!).

I've written up the whole thing somewhere in this thread, I can find it if you're interested. Long story short though, a large group of people took a batch of what tested in FTIR and NMR to be good perfectly good MDMA, but every single person had a lackluster experience. 48 hours later, same doses were taken of a different batch and it was like a whole different experience. The only clue here is the crappy stuff had some small portion MDP2P, but not enough to impact the dose by weight. Good stuff was a clear, scentless crystal, the crappy stuff was brown, sandy and had a strong sassy stinky aroma. Not that I haven't had good MDMA that checks out like the latter though.

It blew my mind so much that I started researching it a good bit, still curious but I don't see this going anywhere and I have what I need. All I know for sure is, there is DEFINITELY MDMA out there that tests perfectly fine (through the tests we have access to), but is kinda shitty. Why? I really don't know, but I have a really hard time chalking up all the differences to set & setting with this one. I have a sample of the crappy stuff somewhere that I'd like to look into further, but it is unavailable to me until next summer most likely.

EDIT: I think you may already know most of that actually, thanks for the summary above!!!!



F.U.B.A.R. said:


> *Most of the time I find MehDMA very enjoyable - just not as enjoyable as it can be. The come up is often intense, but gets nowhere. Once the come up is over, that's it. No plateau. Just up, then over. Total duration 1.5 - 3 hours - even with redoses. A higher initial dose doesn't improve the experience, just makes the come up more intense*. No desire to move about or interact, just to wallow in the physical sensations until I fall asleep. It is like a different  drug entirely.



This is the most concise explanation of it from my perspective. You can get into the nitty gritty, like IME the duration isn't much different and I can't speak on redosing, but its like a dud firework. This is the MehDMA I know, and most people I've talked to IRL seem to agree.

Post with a picture of the stuff I found now that is absolutely brilliant: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14696386
Yes, looks don't mean anything definitive, but when it looks like that AND tests as nearly perfect purity MDMA, I think its the best bet and worth searching or paying more for. I'd urge anyone in the market for MDMA to seek out tested product that resembles this, it's all I can do to help you get the goods! There isn't a ton of MDMA on the market that appears that way, window-shopping DNM's less than 1/50 listings would the photos resemble a clear and colorless crystal. It is also _completely scentless_ like the other times I've had stuff that fits the profile.

Acetone washing seems like a worthwhile extra step/precaution to take if your MDMA is anything but white/clear. I think receiving product that is colorless/clear and scentless shows some level of craftmanship/care, and it shows laziness if this was skipped and immediately calls into question the quality of what is at the end of the day, STREET drugs. I can guarantee the MDMA that MAPS is using isn't some stinky sand. Eliminate those variables..


----------



## majk13

of course there is mehmdma and magic mdma, as with all other substances in this world, they are good and of inferior quality.  I suggest you ignore the skeptics.  Recently I tried ghb and it gives me what mehmdma doesn't: empathy, happiness and a raised libido.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Hilopsilo said:


> its like a dud firework.



Fuck yeh! That nails it. All fizz and no bang...


----------



## Simosom

@Kaden_Nite 
I can understand scientific fustration when therory is not aligned in practice. But doctors always must listen their patients. 
For most people including me, it is hard to exactly describe all negative and positive effects. 
Indigo has summarized it all in one place, why are you trying to take it out of the context and take only what is good for you. 
After 300 pages, most of us agreed that there is something wrong, we are here to try to find out what. Whenever someone like Negi pop in and try to question all aspects we have already discussed, you follow. 
We can close this thread right now, forget about it and agree that we are all sentimental fools craving for past life.


----------



## psy997

Kaden_Nite said:


> Psy997 had the audacity to call a trained chemist 'ignorant' for not buying into your 'mehDMA' theory.. meanwhile, he hadn't even so much as read the Wikipedia article on GC/MS (after three years of saying that it must be a flawed method of analysis).



I said he was ignorant of the MehDMA experience, Kaden, and wished that he would remain so - a caring gesture, no?

The remark had nothing to do with chemistry, nor knowledge of testing methods, despite that being the current discussion that was happening. Regarding my own knowledge, or lack thereof, of testing methods, I did a relatively depthful reading on the matter either just before or just after that post. Which, if you are willing to not nitpick so much, does suggest it is possible we're missing contaminants with current testing methods. 

I've stood up for your dissonance here when it's seemed appropriate, and called you out when it was not. Let's not attack one another.



Kaden_Nite said:


> You seem more intent on getting others to believe that there is a microscopic flaw lurking in (and ruining) the world's supply of MDMA than you are in actually getting an answer as to whether or not that's true.



We talked about this earlier in the thread. This is exactly what we're doing with our theorizing. If we don't have proposed hypotheses of mechanisms for MehDMA that we can test, however unlikely, then how do you suggest we get an answer as to whether Meh is a real phenomena, or not?

It's not as simple as



Kaden_Nite said:


> Yes, there are a vast range of impurities in street drugs. No, your reaction isn't caused by them. You need to stop taking MDMA.



That's just as much an unfounded hypothesis as you claim ours to be.

My suggestion is, let what you see as psuedo-science here go, and instead focus on the myriad of good points you have, including


1.


Kaden_Nite said:


> This mehDMA bullshit is sending a message to people that if they react negatively to a drug, (even if it's happening repeatedly, from different batches, that have been lab tested), the reason for their reaction must be that they aren't getting the magic stuff.



This is a good point. We should be aware of the effect we may be having on users in propagating an idea that if a negative experience occurs, it's not them to blame. I believe that's true for Meh, as I do think Meh is a real phenomenon, and we could be causing damage in addition to help with spreading our ideas without the proper caveats.


2.


Kaden_Nite said:


> Yeah, very consistent



The issues that are seen here in the inconsistency of described effects. I don't have a major issue with the inconsistencies, as I've had Meh batches ranging from pleasurable to downright awful - and it's my fault that I've not made that clear every time I've stated here that Meh is not pleasureful whatsoever - but we do need to be clear when mentioning effects profiles or making summary posts that there is a large range of possible effects - again, if our hypothesis is true - which, again, I don't believe you have the evidence to definitively prove is not true.


----------



## Negi

psy997 said:


> as I've had Meh batches ranging from pleasurable to downright awful


Why do you consider all of those to be meh, if there is such a vast difference in the effects you get from them?

A similar question here:


Simosom said:


> Distinct to the level that i can recognize it among different batches with sedative, energy, empathy variations.


If you take MDMA that gives you energy or empathy, why are you calling it meh?

Since several users have now mentioned that they continue to take MDMA that they consider to be meh, how widespread is that? I notice others seem to be fairly frequently trying new batches in the hope of finding one that is magic. Is there anyone in the thread who has stepped back and taken a longer break (such as a year or more) from MDMA in response to meh experiences?


----------



## tired of crap

@Negi 


> Is there anyone in the thread who has stepped back and taken a longer break (such as a year or more) from MDMA in response to meh experiences?



I have had the same batch for many years now. When I first got it I had recently been using too frequently at silly doses. Mind you it was nothing compared to my younger days.

Anyways, I didn’t have much of a test kit left at the time (it was many years old and no simons or robadope left ie no way to distinguish mdma va mda). But marquis was solid and trusted friends said it was good so I jumped at the chance to try it. After a few years I bought a fresh kit And all signs (reagents)  point to mdma

My first attempt left me wondering if it was mda though. I was rather lethargic and kind of withdrawn - definitely not the pro social energetic rolls from my rave days. And while I felt euphoric it wasn’t an I love everyone just this feels good. And the duration seemed shorter than I recall

Now I didn’t take a break for over a year but cut back seriously in the intervening years - maybe 3/4 rolls a year. As I get older this decreased more and more and now, >5 years since I first came across this batch,  I’m about 1/2 times per year. 

Recently I took this same batch one year after my last roll. I’d say there were more positive effects on half the dose (120+40 mg vs 200+100) now vs 5 years ago. But this stuff stil doesn’t produce that loved up pro social effects from many moons ago. And my pupils aren’t so dilated that you c an hardly see any iris. 

I recognize this is by no means conclusive because 1 it’s not lab tested and 2 years of misuse during my youth... but by decreasing my use some positive aspects are returning. Though I still think something is not quite right with this batch. It’s not magic but maybe that’s just me


----------



## Negi

tired of crap said:


> When I first got it I had recently been using too frequently at silly doses


Had you noticed a loss of effectiveness from that usage? Were the higher doses a result of tolerance?


----------



## tired of crap

Negi said:


> Had you noticed a loss of effectiveness from that usage? Were the higher doses a result of tolerance?


 Oh ya, the effectiveness had been steadily decreasing since my youth. As a result my doses continued to increase- exactly the dose would depend on the batch. 

As noted I’d typically dose 200+ redoses with this batch, in those days. Though it was higher than in my youth, it was on par with recent batches of the time albeit with more positive effects. (As much as I abused m I knew doing so could result in damage so I tried not to be too ridiculous with my doses/frequency at that time but in my younger years I was reckless with both - now I’m at a place where I’m happy with my usage)


----------



## indigoaura

@Kaden_Nite



> “No, you clearly don't understand - believing that people shouldn't comment if they disagree with you is narcissistic and immature.”



Discourse has always been welcome in this thread. Opposing viewpoints are welcome. It is just that some people come to the thread in a relatively courteous way and contribute and bring new research to the table, like @Negi. Other people enter the discussion with the grace of a slammed door at a dinner party.



> "Bluelight has always been a place for dispelling unproven drug myths, it's sad to see people using this site to spread false rumours about drugs and even sadder seeing newcomers buying into it.”



I have always appreciated Bluelight’s efforts at harm reduction. I suppose we disagree here. I feel that identifying the central problem posted in this thread IS harm reduction.



> Feel free to share your experiences Indigo, but you are completely out of your depths discussing chemistry and that is very apparent when you have to ask if al/hg is the synth that uses mercury, or ask what a regioisomer is after emailing a testing facility and telling them that's what they need to look for



I have never claimed to have any knowledge of chemistry, and I have been very open about that in this thread. Not having specific knowledge of chemistry does not mean I am incapable of analysis and inquiry.



> It's strange that you have no problem sending your stuff to be tested by them when you're certain that they will tell you something that fits with your pre-determined conclusions, but then question their abilities and motivations when they tell you that it's MDMA



Strange that you are not interested in the published research articles that established that not all contaminants show up on GCMS testing.



> Psy997 had the audacity to call a trained chemist 'ignorant' for not buying into your 'mehDMA' theory.. meanwhile, he hadn't even so much as read the Wikipedia article on GC/MS (after three years of saying that it must be a flawed method of analysis).



You think Wikipedia is the right source to go to for accurate information?



> “indigoaura said:
> 
> What is your objective? What are you trying to accomplish?”



You still have not answered.



> I'm wondering the same thing about you. You seem more intent on getting others to believe that there is a microscopic flaw lurking in (and ruining) the world's supply of MDMA than you are in actually getting an answer as to whether or not that's true.



You do realize, right, that this is a thread that is literally about the possibility that something is wrong with MDMA? I did not start the thread. It existed years before I jumped into it. In other threads I have gone down the path of lost magic and looked for possible solutions such as NAC or BPC-157. I have posted about possible physiological issues. I have tried to approach my problem as though it could be product or person. But, this thread is not about that and I post here about the topic of this thread.



> Yes, there are a vast range of impurities in street drugs. No, your reaction isn't caused by them. You need to stop taking MDMA.



That’s just, like, your opinion man.



> “Anyone getting negative effects from any drug: stop buying it, stop taking it. This mehDMA bullshit is sending a message to people that if they react negatively to a drug, (even if it's happening repeatedly, from different batches, that have been lab tested), the reason for their reaction must be that they aren't getting the magic stuff.”



This is a valid concern. However, the thread also pushes for extreme testing of products, encourages multi-reagent and lab analysis, encourages reasonable dosages, and re-directs people who are talking about consuming untested product.



> “indigoaura said:
> 
> So much of what you claim in your brief post is incorrect.
> 
> No, not wrong. Just beyond your capacity to understand. Look up the definition of chemical compound. MehDMA is not a chemical compound. It is a made-up term to describe an experience. You have tried unsuccessfully to pin it down to some invisible chemical, and you can't. You should be happy that you have an answer, not disappointed because it's not the answer you want.”



Never said MehDMA is a chemical compound. It is a funny term to make the discussion easier. When did anyone say that?

When an answer is proposed that actually makes sense in combination with all of the reports here, I would be glad to hear it. No, it does not make sense for groups of people to spontaneously lose the magic when they get a new supply of MDMA, or for a bunch of MDMA naïve users to be incapable of rolling, or for a group of people to take one product and not roll and then take a different product 48 hrs later and roll just fine EVEN THOUGH THEY BOTH TEST AS MDMA.



> “indigoaura said:
> 
> There IS a shared consensus on effects,
> 
> Clearly, there isn't. Effects range from:
> 
> -hiding under a blanket all night
> 
> -fun to take at concerts
> 
> -makes listening to music undesirable
> 
> -inactive at 400 milligrams
> 
> -makes you feel sick for a week after
> 
> -totally unpleasant
> 
> -almost as good as real MDMA”



Your cherry-picked list here comes from many different people/circumstances. Just like all MDMA experiences can have variation, there is going to be some variation in these experiences as well. There are going to be outliers to the data set. But there are clear patterns that have emerged and frequently mentioned issues that come up repeatedly.

I genuinely do not understand your mindset on this. From reading your recent post, it seems that you believe we pose a grave risk to harm reduction by discussing this issue here. I don’t agree with that, and I think it is stretching.

You called me immature and narcissistic, but that comment could easily be flipped back on you. It is not that I think people who disagree should not comment, or that the thread does not need discourse. If you want to contribute, then contribute. But you just come in and state an opinion and tell everyone they are wrong all the time.

In New Orleans, Louisiana if you go for Mardi Gras or whatever, there are always these guys that stand in the middle of Bourbon street. They come from some religious organization, and they hold up their “God Hates Fags” and “You’re going to hell” signs and cause traffic problems and try to ruin everyone’s good time. I never understand why they are there either, as they clearly don’t want to enjoy New Orleans.

Maybe the issue here is as simple as your tone not coming across how you intend it, I don’t know. But you have singled me out for personal attacks in this thread more than once, and I am not going to be bullied or gaslit.

This thread is driven by anecdotal reports, published research, and testing data. It encourages greater awareness of what drugs you are consuming and pushes to determine why unknown variations occur. To me, it epitomizes the heart of harm reduction, and it is unfortunate you don't see it that way.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> Why do you consider all of those to be meh, if there is such a vast difference in the effects you get from them?
> 
> A similar question here:
> 
> If you take MDMA that gives you energy or empathy, why are you calling it meh?
> 
> Since several users have now mentioned that they continue to take MDMA that they consider to be meh, how widespread is that? I notice others seem to be fairly frequently trying new batches in the hope of finding one that is magic. Is there anyone in the thread who has stepped back and taken a longer break (such as a year or more) from MDMA in response to meh experiences?



Personally, I have taken breaks of 8 months, but not 1 year. My partner took a break of over 5 years. His one roll after the 5 year break was very "meh." He was the one that told me, "Why the fuck do you keep taking this shit? This is NOT MDMA." I had mostly assumed it was just loss of magic up to that point.


----------



## psy997

Negi said:


> Why do you consider all of those to be meh, if there is such a vast difference in the effects you get from them?



Mainly because each batch is noticeably different than what I know MDMA to be.

For instance, the first time I noticed something was up, the high was mostly the same - albeit with a _bit_ less empathy than usual, but on par for euphoria, tactile enhancement, and stimulation - but I, and the other four that took it, all abruptly came down at the three hour point post-dosing. As I've said here before, I am strongly affected by amphetamines, and MDMA lasts a while for me. It was very weird, and I immediately texted my dealer - without having ever heard of MehDMA at this point - that something was up, it shouldn't comedown like this, and he shrugged it off.

The next few times I had Meh I didn't really think too much about it because even though the empathy was barely there and the euphoria pretty low, the duration was pretty much par for MDMA, and I was easily able to explain the discrepancies in effects as psychologically originated.

Finally, I started to get stuff that had almost no energy, no real euphoria unless you tried to force it, and almost no empathy. From this point on (almost three years ago), I've only had good MDMA once or twice. This is the stuff that I absolutely hate and will never willingly take again. I would take the first batch I mentioned again, and probably even the stuff I mentioned in the second paragraph, but this stuff that I've been getting since, nope.



Negi said:


> Is there anyone in the thread who has stepped back and taken a longer break (such as a year or more) from MDMA in response to meh experiences?



I've had one year long break since getting the really bad Meh for the first time, and then 3-4 nine month long breaks interspersed in the time since I first got Meh.

The most I've rolled in a year is 6 times, and I've used MDMA no more than 30 times.


----------



## Negi

psy997 said:


> For instance, the first time I noticed something was up, the high was mostly the same - albeit with a _bit_ less empathy than usual, but on par for euphoria, tactile enhancement, and stimulation - but I, and the other four that took it, all abruptly came down at the three hour point post-dosing. As I've said here before, I am strongly affected by amphetamines, and MDMA lasts a while for me. It was very weird, and I immediately texted my dealer - without having ever heard of MehDMA at this point - that something was up, it shouldn't comedown like this, and he shrugged it off.
> 
> The next few times I had Meh I didn't really think too much about it because even though the empathy was barely there and the euphoria pretty low, the duration was pretty much par for MDMA, and I was easily able to explain the discrepancies in effects as psychologically originated.



So you had an experience that was more or less just like regular MDMA (with good euphoria), except for a short duration, then some experiences where the empathy and euphoria were mostly gone (but they had the usual MDMA duration) and you think these must both be the result of the same issue?

Edit: 
So the timeline was still getting most MDMA effects (but short) -> significantly reduced effects (but regular duration) -> Almost no effects (what was the duration here?)



psy997 said:


> I've had one year long break since getting the really bad Meh for the first time, and then 3-4 nine month long breaks interspersed in the time since I first got Meh.


Where did the magic experiences fit in in terms of the breaks?


----------



## indigoaura

> ...you think these must both be the result of the same issue?



I know this isn't really directed at me, but I no longer really think it is one issue. As G_Chem has said recently, I think it is more likely a combination of various factors.  If it is impurities, prob varying amounts of multiple impurities.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> Personally, I have taken breaks of 8 months, but not 1 year. My partner took a break of over 5 years. His one roll after the 5 year break was very "meh." He was the one that told me, "Why the fuck do you keep taking this shit? This is NOT MDMA." I had mostly assumed it was just loss of magic up to that point.


Has your partner experienced magic MDMA since then?


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> Has your partner experienced magic MDMA since then?



He has not had any MDMA since then. Never did it again after that.


----------



## psy997

Negi said:


> So you had an experience that was more or less just like regular MDMA (with good euphoria), except for a short duration, then some experiences where the empathy and euphoria were mostly gone (but they had the usual MDMA duration) and you think these must both be the result of the same issue?
> 
> Edit:
> So the timeline was still getting most MDMA effects (but short) -> significantly reduced effects (but regular duration) -> Almost no effects (what was the duration here?)



I don't think there is any single issue at play here, no. Did my post make it seem that way?

One time getting most effects with a crazy short duration -> 2-3 years of close enough to not think anything of it -> Shit effects, not no effects (2-3hr duration)



Negi said:


> Where did the magic experiences fit in in terms of the breaks?



There's no pattern so far as I'm aware. One batch of magic that I found in Idaho was 3mo after last rolling. One batch two weeks after last rolling.

I'm really, really open to there being issues with me personally that would be the cause of Meh experiences, but I just don't see how it's possible, right now. I'm relatively young still, all my MDMA use has been within a period of six years, I haven't used MDMA too many times nor at high doses, I take care of myself better than most people ever will, I haven't abused any other stimulants, and I can still experience Magic just fine (and did, two weeks ago) with there being no correlation between time since last use and Magic, nor a slight steady decrease in effects as described recently in the thread.

It's possible frequent psychedelic use and periods of dissociative use could be an issue, or being prescribed amphetamines for ADHD. But, most of my psychedelic and dissociative use was before that first super short experience I mentioned, as was my regular use of an amphetamine prescription.

This reminds me, I've been having the thought that it would be a good idea for all of us experiencing Meh to brainstorm possible reasons it could be a personal issue, and then see if we find any connections.

EDIT: Seriously, thank you for engaging here @Negi I appreciate the nuanced questioning you're bringing here.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> Personally, I have taken breaks of 8 months, but not 1 year.


Have your magic experiences been near those breaks? If not, how close were they to other MDMA use?


----------



## indigoaura

> This reminds me, I've been having the thought that it would be a good idea for all of us experiencing Meh to brainstorm possible reasons it could be a personal issue, and then see if we find any connections.



My top guess for me would be hormonal issues related to the birth control I used for a long time. As an Indian medication not approved in the USA, there is not a lot of published data on it. However, I have seen data that shows it may interfere with dopamine in some way. And, not too long ago in the thread I shared some research that showed a connection between DHEA release and the MDMA peak, which could also connect to my hormonal levels (as I have shown low DHEA on some recent tests). I also have several genetic mutations that impact MAO activity, but that would have been present when I started rolling, that is not something that changed.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> Have your magic experiences been near those breaks? If not, how close were they to other MDMA use?



My magic experiences were from 2000-2005(ish) and then my dealer quit. After that, I never found the same product again. I have had a batch, here or there, that was better than the rest. I had one decent batch around 2013, but did not have enough of it to experiment with dosage.


----------



## G_Chem

psy997 said:


> I don't think there is any single issue at play here, no. Did my post make it seem that way?
> 
> One time getting most effects with a crazy short duration -> 2-3 years of close enough to not think anything of it -> Shit effects, not no effects (2-3hr duration)
> 
> 
> 
> There's no pattern so far as I'm aware. One batch of magic that I found in Idaho was 3mo after last rolling. One batch two weeks after last rolling.
> 
> I'm really, really open to there being issues with me personally that would be the cause of Meh experiences, but I just don't see how it's possible, right now. I'm relatively young still, all my MDMA use has been within a period of six years, I haven't used MDMA too many times nor at high doses, I take care of myself better than most people ever will, I haven't abused any other stimulants, and I can still experience Magic just fine (and did, two weeks ago) with there being no correlation between time since last use and Magic, nor a slight steady decrease in effects as described recently in the thread.
> 
> It's possible frequent psychedelic use and periods of dissociative use could be an issue, or being prescribed amphetamines for ADHD. But, most of my psychedelic and dissociative use was before that first super short experience I mentioned, as was my regular use of an amphetamine prescription.
> 
> This reminds me, I've been having the thought that it would be a good idea for all of us experiencing Meh to brainstorm possible reasons it could be a personal issue, and then see if we find any connections.
> 
> EDIT: Seriously, thank you for engaging here @Negi I appreciate the nuanced questioning you're bringing here.



Didn’t you also get a magic sample somewhere in the Midwest one time too? Or am I thinking of someone else?

-GC


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> My magic experiences were from 2000-2005(ish) and then my dealer quit. After that, I never found the same product again. I have had a batch, here or there, that was better than the rest. I had one decent batch around 2013, but did not have enough of it to experiment with dosage.


So you've only found something you consider to be close to the original magic once since 2005? How long had it been since you had taken MDMA when you first encountered the decent 2013 batch? Did your partner try it as well or was that after he had given up on MDMA?


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> So you've only found something you consider to be close to the original magic once since 2005? How long had it been since you had taken MDMA when you first encountered the decent 2013 batch? Did your partner try it as well or was that after he had given up on MDMA?



He never tried that batch. That was during his break.

I don't have detailed notes from 2013 readily accessible. So, I can't tell you in detail how many months were between doses. I know that during that era, 2010-2013, I was doing MDMA maybe 2-3 times per year.

That particular batch was obtained locally, but the guy had gotten it from San Francisco. 

I remember doing it at a concert and feeling nauseous on the comeup like normal, and then being blissed out on a 3 hour ride home from Austin. I also remember doing it at a beach and having a great time. So, I did it a few times. That batch never made me sick in the week afterwards like these other batches have.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> He never tried that batch. That was during his break.


So did he ever have a magic experience after 2005?


----------



## psy997

G_Chem said:


> Didn’t you also get a magic sample somewhere in the Midwest one time too? Or am I thinking of someone else?
> 
> -GC



Yea, I actually had typed that but apparently took it out of my comment. 

I found amazing stuff in Idaho back in Q2 of 2017.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> So did he ever have a magic experience after 2005?



Short answer: No.

We both switched to the new supplier, and were both underwhelmed by it. We experimented for awhile with mixing it with MDA from the same supplier, which was better. But we always felt like it was different than how it had been with the old supplier. Sometimes it made us sick, which was why I sent it in for testing.

On a few occasions, we got pills from a local guy. The pills were somewhat better that the powder in terms of the experience itself, but super dirty. They made us both sick with the week long indigestion issue (yes, both of us).  I still have one of those pills that I held on to for more advanced testing. After they made us sick, we didn't want to use them again. Can't remember when that was, but it was around 2009. In 2010, my partner stopped using MDMA, and he has only done it twice since 2010.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

At the risk of muddying the waters even further, here is my take on the whole situation.

The terms 'MehDMA' and 'MagicDMA' are definitely highly subjective.

However, I had a break from MDMA (having never really abused it in the past) from around 2001 (having been spoilt  with the doves of the early 90s and the Mitsubishis of the late 90s and the plethora of good pills around that time) until about 2013 while I dealt with my opiate addiction (which was a constant from 1995 to 2015) - quite a long tolerance break I'm sure you will agree. Anyway, I sourced some crystal MDMA and took a solid dose with all the anticipation of a child waiting for Santa claus.

Santa Clause never came. I sat glued to the chair all night with my eyes wiggling to fuck thinking "what the fuck is this shit?"

Having got back into the saddle, I have had numerous batches since then and can only pick out two which were outstanding. But the point is, I AM STILL CAPABLE OF BEING IMPRESSED..!

As far as I'm concerned, there are three basic types of MDMA doing the rounds:

1. CrapDMA: A total disappointment all round. To use the firework analogy from @Hilopsilo  this is the roman candle that wouldn't even light the fuse.

2. MehDMA: Comes on strong and promises the earth, yet fails to deliver. Enjoyable in the short term, but ultimately disappointing. All fizz and no bang!

3. GoodDMA: Takes your fuckin breath away. Fills your veins with liquid ice and fire. Breathing is orgasmic. There is a shift of consciousness after the come up which persists for several more hours. No desire to redose because you are totally satisfied. Life could not get more perfect. LOVE IS ALL..!!

3+. MagicDMA: This is purely GoodDMA taken in the right setting with the right company. I've personally given up on a magic experience because all my rolls these days are taken alone.

But I am still capable of recognising the good stuff...


----------



## indigoaura

@F.U.B.A.R. Interesting that you break magic off into a category separate from good, based on set/setting. If I could find good, I would be pretty damn thankful. Once I notice how good the air feels, I know I am set.


----------



## BlueCrystal

Le Junk said:


> *NOTE:* A handy draft summary (work-in-progress) of some of the key content covered in this thread can be accessed *⫸HERE⫷*
> 
> 
> Let me first give you a little background.  I'm 51 years old and started doing ecstasy the last year it was legal in 1985.  Needless to say the legal ecstasy from the so called "Dallas Group" was nothing short of spectacular.  In 1988 I made a connection with someone from the San Francisco area who was in the production field of making MDMA.  I have maintained that friendship and connection ever since with only small periods of downtime.  The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.  The high from this MDMA takes about 10-15 minutes to take effect and the high is always the same.  An extremely smooth come up followed by excessive love and empathy.  You will literally melt into the person you're with and sex is out of this world.  Touch and feel is heavenly.  All you want to do is touch and feel on the person youre with and tell them how beautiful they are and how much you love them etc.  There are massive eye wiggles and conversation flows like new born buddas.  The come down is just as smooth as the come up.  It drops you off just like a feather and sleep comes like a baby.  The next day is nothing short of spectacular.  You wake up feeling anti-depressed and chatty.  You'll want to talk on the phone, visit friends or just drive around and enjoy the day with the top down.  It's all I've ever known as an MDMA experience.
> 
> Now that brings me to modern day MDMA.  There was a period back in the early 2000's when my connection was down and I scored pills from a local guy.  They were great and with some very small exceptions, nearly as good as my crystalline powder.  But once again I've been forced to score something locally and the stuff is just plain crap.  And I mean crap.  I've done both the orange Tesla's and the red Supremes.  Absolutely awful, but from reading the trip reports on Pillreports, you would have thought they were the best ever.  They're actually anything but.  I had both of these pills tested on ecstasydata and both came back as pure MDMA.
> 
> Both of them took about 30-40 minutes to kick in and when they did, there was a slight feeling of euphoria and empathy that quickly faded and from there on out it was just a fucked up buzz.  There were eye wiggles, but I wasn't feeling good when they were happening.  I became extremely tired and kind of gacked out.  The high from these pills seemed to last forever, maybe just because they sucked so much.  I felt like a crackhead on the comedown and the next day felt like a bad MDA hangover.  There was no next day afterglow at all.  Just a different kind of fucked up than the night before.  And that lasted the entire next day.  There is a HUGE giveaway that youre doing todays crappy MDMA.  Your pupils will not dialate all the way to the very edge like old school ecstasy.  With old school ecstasy your pupils consume literally all of the color in your eye with only a microscopic sliver of color left around the outer edge.  With modern day ecstasy your pupils will only dialate to slightly beyond normal if at all.  Thats a big giveaway youre doing new school MDMA junk.
> 
> Before you jump to the assumption that this Le Junk guy is just old, hes done way to much ecstasy over the course of his lifetime and this is just a matter of tolerance, please re-read my post stating that I still have access to old school MDMA that Ive had since the 1980s.  So in one hand I have modern day lab tested MDMA crap and in the other hand, old school MDMA heaven.  So tolerance is out the window.  Moving forward...
> 
> My question is this.  Is this the best there is out there today?  And since both pills tested on ecstasydata as pure MDMA, what is wrong with MDMA production nowdays?  Does anyone else feel what I'm talking about here?  My setting is pretty much always the same so that's not it.  I always hear people talk about the setting as if that's an issue.  With the crystalline powder, it doesn't matter where I am, it's always great.  But with these Supremes and Teslas, it's just a sub-par, little euphoria, no real love or empathy, fucked up kinda buzz.  Let me put it this way, if this was all that was available to me, I'd quit taking MDMA altogether.  Terrible!


----------



## BlueCrystal

indigoaura said:


> @F.U.B.A.R. Interesting that you break magic off into a category separate from good, based on set/setting. If I could find good, I would be pretty damn thankful. Once I notice how good the air feels, I know I am set.


----------



## BlueCrystal

Well, I really couldn't tell you. I grew up in the age of just about everything being experimented with, including shrooms, ludes and LSD. But I have never been able to get my hands on Molly. My Dr. even wrote me a step by step guide, on how to order it online with bitcoins. Of course, it went missing. I have seen the Europeans on TV and movies, dancing and kissing while being on it. But I am more interested in the help it's supposed to provide for PTSD. That's what my Dr. told me was the best thing I could do. He's kind of out there, he's from Canada and he's really into hallucinatory treatment for mental issues. Unfortunately, he's taken off on a trip somewhere to parts unknown. So, I just want to try any of it, old or new. Antidepressants do not help at all, and I'm not interested in ketamine. I guess I will just have to wait until the government decides to go back to alternative treatments. It seems so easy for other people to get ahold of it. But not me.


----------



## Negi

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Having got back into the saddle, I have had numerous batches since then and can only pick out two which were outstanding


What times did you discover the good batches in relation to other rolls? How many times (and with what frequency) did you use each batch?


----------



## indigoaura

BlueCrystal said:


> Well, I really couldn't tell you. I grew up in the age of just about everything being experimented with, including shrooms, ludes and LSD. But I have never been able to get my hands on Molly. My Dr. even wrote me a step by step guide, on how to order it online with bitcoins. Of course, it went missing. I have seen the Europeans on TV and movies, dancing and kissing while being on it. But I am more interested in the help it's supposed to provide for PTSD. That's what my Dr. told me was the best thing I could do. He's kind of out there, he's from Canada and he's really into hallucinatory treatment for mental issues. Unfortunately, he's taken off on a trip somewhere to parts unknown. So, I just want to try any of it, old or new. Antidepressants do not help at all, and I'm not interested in ketamine. I guess I will just have to wait until the government decides to go back to alternative treatments. It seems so easy for other people to get ahold of it. But not me.



Can you sign up for the phase 3 MAPS research study on PTSD and MDMA? They are recruiting.








						Participate in a Trial - Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies - MAPS
					

MAPS sponsors clinical trials around the world that offer volunteers the opportunity to participate in our research studies. Our studies have strict enrollment criteria based on the goal of the study and the condition the study is investigating. Subscribe to the MAPS Email Newsletter to learn...




					maps.org


----------



## HerpDerpMcDerp

I never post on the net but made an account here to give my story:

Started raving it in '98, magical times indeed in the Bay Area.  When I started taking e pills, it was with acid until I stopped combining both together so I could actually talk to people and develop dance skills.  I always only had to take 1 pill, Mitsubishi's,  Dolphins, Clovers, Euro Dollars, Apples, etc.  I was rolling a ton, about every weekend until I started double dropping a year later, so I was hitting it hard for a couple of years until I started sober raving.  I never lost the magic, though. 

I was getting older and stopped raving in 2001 and lost any connects i had.  In 2003 I bought 10 pills from a friend of a friend.  He had 2 options and since I didn't know which ones would be better,  I got 5 of each.  5 of one kind sucked, were uppers but not meth, and didn't give me the magic feeling at all.  The other 5 were good, classic magic that I was used to, but low dosed.

I took another break for a couple of years and found someone who was selling 1 pill and I took it and it was great and lasted about 3 hours.  I wasn't super rolling balls but would've if I double dropped.

Another break ensued until 2009 when I was living in LA County and luckily met someone selling who became a really good friend.  We had a nice line on the famous Pokeballs,  (Telephones, Dragonflies,  etc.), and they were very good compared to the previous 2 times.  I remember saying that I didn't think I could've felt like that anymore.   The body high was awesome and what you'd expect from magic, but the empathy wasn't there.  I took a ton of those over that year and never lost the great body high but what was in the back of my mind was that they weren't lovey at all.  When I took the super magic in the 90's it was massages, cuddle puddles and making out with tons of people, it was what I loved about e.   On Pokeballs,  it was everything magic, except the love, which is what I'm trying to convey.  I was just happy that I could feel that good again,  so I chalked it up to thinking that I was loved up because I was at raves with new people, but I knew that something was missing.

Fast forward to a few months ago, i came across 2 Check Point (CP) Pink Supremes.  My previous break was a little over 10 years but I've kept informed on the market, checking pillreports, finding this thread years ago and the reddit sub.  I had been reading that there was a different process with the PMK Glycidate precursor after the trees were burned down and that a good amount of people who remember the magic, weren't ecstatic with the supply.  I was stoked though,  because I was reading that Check Point was legit and that people loved the Supremes, (pink, with gold glitter and sourced a couple of years ago so possibly the original batch), so I bought 2 was was literally ready to roll.

I read that Supremes were high doses, probably 225'ish mgs, and was informed to talk a half of 1.  I ate the half and waited an hour and started coming up.  1 hour after my dose I wasn't rolling at all, just kinda almost feeling good, but I wanted to feel real good so I popped the other half.  Another hour later and I wasn't feeling like I thought I should've,  so I said fuck it and took another whole.  So 2 pills down and I started getting eye wiggles, got hot and just felt amped.  No rushy rush, no love but like I was on meth or other amphetamines,  just up with eye wiggles and regular pupils.

I was able to get some sleep 5 hours after I took the second pill and didn't have any hangover the next day, but I did have an afterglow that almost remined me of the day after I'd take a Pokeball.   Out of 10, I'd give those pills a 2 and it wasn't even 2/5ths of what I thought it'd be.

So in conclusion,  I took a 10 year break and the supposedly good presses I took were extremely underwhelming.   No love, no awesome body high, just like I was going up the rollercoaster and then somewhat speedy with eye wiggles.   I didn't feel speedy in the sense of wanting to clean my house, I just wanted to stay in bed and mess with my laptop.   I know they weren't cut with speed because I've done speed and it was nothing like it, although i would've rather taken speed.

I thought I'd have a great time but was disappointed.   The person who got them said they were good, so only take a half,  but I didn't ask her what her previous rolling experience was.  I will do that and report back.

In all my breaks, I've only dabbled in opiates (oxy and sub), but have been totally clean since 2012 except for kratom.   No uppers, no SSRI's.

I see the reports on reddit of these kids getting blasted and having a good time, but I don't know if they have a point of reference for magic.  It could be me, but I took a 3 or so year break and I was feeling the "pretty much" magic of the Pokeball's when I was eating the hell out of them,  just not the love.  I want to believe that the magic is still out there.  The only thing that changed for me was the route of synthesis and the precursor. 

If anyone has any questions for me, let me know


----------



## Negi

HerpDerpMcDerp said:


> The only thing that changed for me was the route of synthesis and the precursor.


I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on the older people in the thread, but yes something else changed, your body over the course of 10 years (and nearly 20 years since you had the super magic experiences). I imagine the set and settings of your experiences have also changed during those time periods. I do not think it is a coincidence that many in this thread started rolling ~20 years ago, and that they also seem to get the least positive effects from mehDMA (if any) while having the lowest success rates for finding anything they consider magic.

Anyway, I can't believe I wasted my time hunting Reddit experience reports out of the dross when the true repository has been here all along: https://erowid.org/experiences/exp....A_RA&NewSort=PDD&Start=0&ShowViews=0&Cellar=0
This is the Erowid experience vault for first time MDMA experiences, sorted to show the most recent. I encourage everyone to pick a dozen from the past two years and give them a read before deciding that most of the MDMA in the world has turned to shit and that kids these days couldn't possibly understand what real magic felt like.

Edit: I didn't realize how far behind Erowid was on publishing reports, many of those were written years ago but only very recently published. You can work around this using Google, with the string:
site:Erowid.org "Exp Year: 2019" "MDMA (3)" "First Times"
Replace 2019 with whatever year you want to see reports from. There aren't that many from recent years but there are certainly some glowing ones.


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## ThreePointCircle

Negi said:


> I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on the older people in the thread, but yes something else changed, your body over the course of 10 years (and nearly 20 years since you had the super magic experiences). I imagine the set and settings of your experiences have also changed during those time periods. I do not think it is a coincidence that many in this thread started rolling ~20 years ago, and that they also seem to get the least positive effects from mehDMA (if any) while having the lowest success rates for finding anything they consider magic.



Chatted to my younger cousin today who has recently tried mdma (a few times).  Classic meh description.

With regards to me getting older:
Alcohol: still the same effect as the first time
LSD: still the same effect as the first time
MDMA: pants

And with regard to set and setting (you doubters seem to assume that we're all watching horror movies while taking it nowadays?):  if I drink plenty of alcohol I slur my words, lose some inhibitions and fall over a lot - because that's what alcohol does.  If I take a nice amount of lsd things start to visual change - because that's what lsd does.  If I take MDMA - it doesn't give me intense euphoria even though we (used to?) call it ecstacy.

I'm glad for you that you're happy with your supply.  Many of us aren't.  Yes its weird that the testing services aren't spotting anything but people a lot more experienced in the chemistry world than me have pointed out the shortcomings of such services.  There have been good theories as to why there might be a problem - including a research paper that identified two impurities that inhibit mdma action.

At the end of the day, those of us who claim to have experienced magic and meh (some still luckily coming across magic) are not going to be convinced by your 'it's all in your head' arguments because it is such a night and day comparison.  Ultimately we need someone with high competency in chemistry analysis to compare magic and meh, or at least to analyse meh and identify someone that would cause a problem, to get to the bottom of this.  Hey, if a really top notch team did that and there was no difference - I might even think the problem was in my head lol


----------



## Negi

ThreePointCircle said:


> Chatted to my younger cousin today who has recently tried mdma (a few times).  Classic meh description.


Which meh description, a few new ones ones have emerged in recent pages. Did it:

Immediately make them feel worse than before they took the MDMA?
Give many of the classic MDMA effects but just be very be short in duration?
Make them feel relaxed, sleepy and not want to talk to anyone? (without any euphoria)



ThreePointCircle said:


> including a research paper that identified two impurities that inhibit mdma action.


Can you clarify what you mean by this? If you are talking about the South Korean paper and the the discussion about M-ALPHA and MBDB that followed, I think the idea of "inhibiting" activity is just a misreading, as I posted at the time:

From my reading of that interview he is talking about the lack of any hallucinogenic activity directly caused by MBDB, not attributing to it any properties to act as an anti-psychotic and terminate any other hallucinogenic activity.



> *Q: Would the effects of MBDB class it as an Hallucinogen?*
> 
> A; No, absolutely not, and even less so than MDMA. MBDB has an ethyl group
> attached to the side chain (see below). When you do this to an
> hallucinogenic phenethylamine derivative, it completely abolishes its
> hallucinogenic activity.



Edit: Found the paper, it seems to be this: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1124/jpet.105.084426


----------



## Biscuit

There is no doubt in my mind there is a difference. (You nailed it HerpDerpMcDerp; and welcome to Bluelight.)

I’ve been taking MDMA pills and MDMA powder/crystal for 21 years now and after almost giving up, two months ago I had my night rocked by a 120mg dose of the most luscious, munty (of the more cheeky/naughty kind), and long lasting (with God forbid actual afterglow), MDMA crystal in many years. I was on night two as well, having used meth all day prior. Had I been younger, on night #1 and just generally less trashed, this stuff would have been the magic that I remembered from years ago, magic that I have barely encountered in Australia for more than ten years.

After earlier championing the SvsR isomer issue, I am now positive the answer to this entire issue is contained in the article indigoaura posted many pages ago, where very small quantities of two structurally similar dimers created as impurities during MDMA manufacture, could cause significant inhibition of the MDMA effects at comparatively very low amounts by binding to the neurotransmitter reuptake transporters, much like how for prescription SSRIs and SNRIs nullify the effects of MDMA into something resembling “Meh” in those people taking these drugs. (Didn’t one of the dimers show ridiculously strong affinity to ALL THREE of the significant transporters, the noradrenaline, the dopamine AND the serotonin?! A higher presence of such a chemical in a substance purporting to be “pure MDMA” is going to completely fuck up the roll and will need a much greater dose to get anywhere close to something resembling a roll.)

Whilst I would like to put together a much more thought out, well researched and diagrammatically useful post, as I have been false starting on this endeavour for months now, I thought it better to put something out there for discussion without any further delay.

It is clear that PMK glycidate could favour the creation of these dimers, especially if the PMK is not properly purified. I mean what is created when the glycidate molecule is hydrolysed, acetic acid or acetate perhaps, the very reactant which they list in one of the initial steps that gives rise to these dimers.

The other matter of significance is that of what the limiting reagent is in the reductive animation step of PMK and methylamine Into MDMA. This reaction always ideally proceeds with a significant excess of methylamine to PMK, for if there is no excess, the formation of these dimers or molecules like them is much more likely to occur.

In the old days, as it was safrole/isosafrole and the PMK produced from these that was in the shortest supply, there would never have been any question about having an excess of methylamine to this highly sought after and almost impossible to obtain precursor. However, we know now that PMK glycidates are widely available in massive quantities and so PMK is no longer going to be the limiting reagent in the reductive amination. Instead, not only might manufacturers fail to properly purify the PMK or otherwise proceed via one-pot synth straight to MDMA with potentially highly reactive hydrolysis products from the glycidate (with certain PMK glycidates being worse than others for creating such dimers, this being a further reading for different levels of “meh”), but they may be skimping on the methylamine in the reaction as well, such that there is now an undue excess of PMK made from glycidate relative to the methylamine, a factor which would strongly favour the creation of these inhibiting dimers to a much greater degree. Throw in the fact that platinum catalyst hydrogenation is now almost always used to reduce the imine as opposed to borohydride, and it’s anyone’s guess as to what mess we actually end up with.

The above hypothesis would account for why there are varying degrees of Meh (being the extent to which the MDMA does or does not have the presence of such impurities, a fact which the right laboratory could actually
test for), why safrole produced MDMA doesn’t create this problem to the same degree, and why the change to the almost infinitely available glycidate pre-precursor may have skewed the reaction in the wrong direction on account of commercial considerations (despite the news now of stupidly high dosages of this crappy
MDMA).

As an aside, for a long time high purity racemic methamphetamine produced from p2p has received similarly poor user reports along the lines mehMDMA despite being >90% purity - “mehMeth” if you will. And where is this P2P coming from but BMK glycidates, the PMK glycidate equivalents. Precisely the same reaction considerations to what I have described above for MDMA would apply for methamphetamine produced via this route and where the more readily available precursor might also be present in relative excess to the methylamine needed
for the reductive amination. If similar dimers
were produced (and I’ll find an article I have saved confirming this very thing), then these too would likely inhibit the action of the meth in similar ways.

Sorry that this post is so garbled but the earlier discussion about this and articles i refer to are buried somewhere a hundred pages or so ago. As this thought has otherwise been bubbling uselessly away in my mind for more than six months now, best I just get it down and hope that the more cleverer chemists and those more familiar with the invaluable content in these almost 300 pages, could give it further consideration.


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## HerpDerpMcDerp

I totally agree with your hypothesis, Biscuit.   It's like Cup of Noodles, it used to be really good until the synth was changed and they took out the MSG.  Now it's still Cup of Noodles,  branded the same, same packaging, but without the ingredient that gives it a bang that older customers experienced and liked...MSG.

If a person has only tasted the latest formulation,  they'll have no point of reference for what it used to taste like, so the new taste is normal for them.  Kind of weird how around 2009, (around the time of the PMK Glycidate recipe),  raves/music fests weren't as fun.  The e sucked and I never felt good no matter how much I took,  except for the Pokeballs.  Also, I'd look around at what was happening,  no cuddle puddles, not the loving vibe connection with everyone, people not making out, just monged out people stuck on their phones walking around like zombies and some people dancing but a way lower ratio than with the good e.  I don't think that every "party" was like that, but I never felt the love since before the safrole trees were burned down. 

I just wonder if it is the new synth, what are first time users really experiencing and who the hell is cooking the magic stuff, because it's got to be out there even if not that much.  If magic is out there, who's cooking it for the love?  I'm guessing since e went mainstream that bigger cartels got into it just for the money, just like how underground warehouse parties morphed into EDC and the huge festivals and the latters just aren't as good as the originals, at least to me.

Maybe I'm being nostalgic but I believe that the pills have been bunk and that if I was turned on to the right connect, I'd be feeling very good.  When I got the Supremes,  I was going to do them with my wife, we've never rolled together before.   Since I had been reading that a lot of the pills were not as good as they used to be, I figured that I'd eat a half to make sure it was okay and then roll with my wife, who isn't into drugs at all.  It would've taken some talking to get her to try it with me but I'm glad I didn't,  because she would've just been tweaked out on bad e, not meth, and then she would've never rolled with me again.  

I don't think I'm burned out, especially abstaining from drugs for 10 years and that the last time I had the Pokeballs, they were really good every time I had them.  I'd think I'm burned out if the Pokeballs stopped providing a great experience before I stopped taking them,  but they worked up to the last time I took them.


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## Negi

So I read through the inhibiting impurities paper, was it ever discussed in detail in this thread? Anyway, in it the two impurities found to have an inhibiting effect on releasing by MDMA were specific impurities created during the Leukart method. They did not seem to be especially potent compared to MDMA, byproduct 12 (the one they give the most information for) has little effect on SERT and NET activity caused by MDMA when present at ~33% of the MDMA concentration, and needed to be present in equal quantity to MDMA to reduce the SERT and NET releasing by more than 20%. DAT was different, with the 33% byproduct concentration having a ~25% reduction in MDMA induced release. This makes sense considering MDMA has a considerably higher affinity for SERT and NET than DAT.


----------



## indigoaura

> So I read through the inhibiting impurities paper, was it ever discussed in detail in this thread?



Yes. That is one of the primary pieces of published research that has been shared and discussed repeatedly. We were talking awhile back about the differences in SERT, NET, DAT activity and considering how the meh effects line up with each. My mind is drawing a blank right now on his name, but there was a poster who was recommending some tests we could run and he was hypothesizing that checking glucose could give an insight into some of that activity and whether or not it was impacted or not. I will try to find the post for you. I have a glucometer on standby to measure his hypothesis.

It is not that I think that the paper is showing the exact two impurities that are the issue. (I recognize that the paper is specifically highlighting the Leukart impurities.) I do think, however, that the paper shows 1) different synth routes produce different impurities, and 2) some impurities have the ability to block transporter/re-uptake activity. There are many articles that have been shared that highlight the wide array of impurities that can be produced depending on the precursors and synthesis route. I don't think it is unreasonable to conclude that some of those impurities may have a similar effect on transporters/reuptake.

Edited to add: @user666 explains the need for a glucometer here: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14826836


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## Slater Says

I'll take straight from the lab grade 5-MAPB thank you.


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## G_Chem

That article is just the tip of the iceberg, there’s many other psychoactive impurities.  Also testing a substance alone tells us little when testing the same substance in combination with a known psychoactive substance..

Shulgin found a couple potentiating drugs and it’s not unreasonable to think an impurity with a similar molecular structure may be inactive alone but active when alongside a known active.

ISO-LSD is said to be inactive yet alters LSD experiences if enough is present.  Chemists go out of their way to purify out this supposedly inactive impurity and it’s not because they’re all perfectionists.

-GC


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## user666

indigoaura said:


> My mind is drawing a blank right now on his name, but there was a poster who was recommending some tests we could run and he was hypothesizing that checking glucose could give an insight into some of that activity and whether or not it was impacted or not. I will try to find the post for you. I have a glucometer on standby to measure his hypothesis.


That would be me.

It is important to test the glucose level in a long fasting state. You can drink only pure water or salted water with citric acid. No sweetened drinks!
Increasing glucose level in a fasting state is *pretty unusual*. It is a function of Norepinephrine and MDMA, though (pupil dilation, too)

I wish more people would measure their serum glucose level multiple times after taking MDMA, because that would yield an OBJETIVE evidence of the difference between the MehMDMA and Magic MDMA.

Note: There are some rare mutants out there, who react to norepinephrine differently...but they are a very very small minority.


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## indigoaura

@Negi Since there is a lot of talk about pupil dilation, I thought this was interesting: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22700038/ because 1) it establishes that 125 mg of MDMA "produced mydriasis" in both males and females. It also establishes that some drugs are capable of inhibiting that effect.


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## indigoaura

@Negi Here is a research study that shows that inhibiting "individual monoamine transporters" eliminates the "fear memory extinction" that is so important in PTSD therapy.



> Acute inhibition of dopamine (DA) and norepinephrine (NE) transporters had no effect. 5-HT release alone did not enhance extinction. Blockade of MDMA's effect by 5-HTT inhibition also downregulated 5-HT2A-mediated behavior, and 5-HT2A antagonism disrupted MDMA's effect on extinction.



Link: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28741031/


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## Biscuit

Maybe I misread the amount of those dimer impurities needed to potentially impact the effects of the MDMA. The main point of my post is that:

(1) I believe the glycidate would favour the production of these dimers over PMK produced from safrole

AND

(2) It is a fact that an excess of PMK to methylamine in the final step will strongly favour the production of dimers (something which greedy manufacturers with a now endless source of PMK might be more prone to do in an attempt to conserve the now (in relative terms) much more difficult to obtain methyamine)

I have no doubt that properly purified PMK made from PMK glycidate (which removes all the other hydrolysis products resulting from the splitting open of the glycidate ring from the PMK produced) that is reductively animated in an EXCESS of methylamine using sodium cyanoborohydride as the reducing agent will produce magic MDMA. It is not that there is anything special about MDMA made originally from safrole, it is that the safrole methods do not create these other problematic molecules as perhaps using these new pre-precursors does. Anyway that is the theory.

The emergence of mehMDMA coincided precisely with the emergence of the PMK glycidates as pre-precursors and decline in the use of safrole to make PMK, and the switch to catalytic metallic hydrogenation over borohydrides as the reducing agent. That is a fact and it has to be, it has to be, the cause of the problem.

The question is why and from a chemistry point of view at least, one can readily see why this new method might create certain impurities that inhibit the magical experience of MDMA giving rise to “Meh”. The mehMDMA isn’t missing something that the magical MDMA has, but rather it has something else in it that prevents it from becoming so.


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## Negi

Biscuit said:


> The emergence of mehMDMA coincided precisely with the emergence of the PMK glycidates as pre-precursors and decline in the use of safrole to make PMK, and the switch to catalytic metallic hydrogenation over borohydrides as the reducing agent. That is a fact and it has to be, it has to be, the cause of the problem.


The timeline doesn't match with the experiences of some users here, who had mehDMA experiences years before 2009. That's why the thread spent pages certain that there must have been a positive byproduct in Leukart produced MDMA that gave it additional energy and love.


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## Biscuit

^ But that’s my point Negi. These sorts of impurities are potentially produced whenever MDMA is made from PMK and it is not limited to the Leuckhart reaction. It is the quantity of these impurities that is important and from time to time certain batches might have more than others and be more of a meh experience regardless of the synthesis route employed.

The point of my post is that if it is these dimer impurities are the culprits, then circumstances likely exist in the modern day glycidate syntheses which would produce a far greater and potentially more wide ranging series of dimers, than the earlier routes ever did, resulting in a proliferation of mehDMA experiences. So rather than being inconsistent with what you say, it is entirely consistent.

Speaking more generally, of course there are going to be sub par MDMA experiences from time to time from batch to batch. But very large dosed ecstasy pills giving a Meh experience were not encountered before 2009 and now these are the norm.

The mehDMA is now endemic across the worlds ecstasy supply and is a marked shift from the profile of the drug in the early 2000s for example, when looked at in a holistic sense.

The Leuckhart produced MDMA before that is a different issue completely and it’s accepted that something else is going on there, possibly due to the presence of something that actually enhances the experience as opposed to inhibiting it.

But the MDMA produced in the late 90s through the 2000s (the MDMA produced via PMK from safrole or piperonyl and sodium borohydride/cyanoborohydride as the reducing agent) up until the point of the DEAs incineration of the safrole rich plant species in Cambodia (which preceded the explosion of piperazines and the complete and total MDMA drought) was, generally speaking, anything but Meh. And importantly those amazing pills were dosed in the 80 to 120mg range and when you managed to find one that was MDMA only (a much more difficult exercise back then than it is now), 90% of the time the experience was wonderful. Of course there were the occasional duds, perhaps as a result of a particularly poor synthesis in that particular batch.

However, the difference which I suspect is operating now, is that unless special care is taken and manufacturers don’t engage in further cost cutting measures (like limiting the methylamine or nitromethane during the reductive amination step), the PMK glycidate route will result in a consistently poor synthesis of MDMA from batch to batch.


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## Negi

Biscuit said:


> But very large dosed ecstasy pills giving a Meh experience were not encountered before 2009 and now these are the norm.


Can you define what a meh experience means to you?


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## Kaden_Nite

indigoaura said:


> In New Orleans, Louisiana if you go for Mardi Gras or whatever, there are always these guys that stand in the middle of Bourbon street. They come from some religious organization, and they hold up their “God Hates Fags” and “You’re going to hell” signs and cause traffic problems and try to ruin everyone’s good time. I never understand why they are there either, as they clearly don’t want to enjoy New Orleans


Yeah, okay. You clearly have issues beyond me..


indigoaura said:


> you have singled me out for personal attacks in this thread more than once, and I am not going to be bullied or gaslit


You quote me, assume that my posts are responses to you, tag me in your posts and constantly attempt to open dialogue with me despite my wishes that you would not do that - then imply that I'm trying to bully you with personal attacks even though I don't know you and wouldn't fucking want to.

Maybe you wouldn't conflate people having differing views with you being personally attacked if your views weren't so heavily based on personal feelings.

I'll make this clear: I want nothing to do with you. I have no interest in talking to you or talking about you. When someone disagrees with you, you make accusations about their intentions here - but I'm not the one using the site to trade drugs and request money.

Fuck off.


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## user666

Kaden_Nite said:


> Fuck off.


That's not a very nice thing to say to a lady.

I don't know what your problem with her is, but I have read all of her posts in this thread and found her to be:
- civil
- educated (even if not in organic chemistry)
- organized
- sincere
- logical in her arguments and able to eloquently express them
- able and willing to learn
- willing to purchase lab equipment and do experiments according to the scientific method

If more members exhibited the qualities listed above, then this forum's quality would be improved.
Of course she is not perfect, e.g. I find her emphasis on the "messenger" rather than on the subject matter, to be a great flaw, but nobody's perfect.  BTW: I do not count her willingness to stand up for herself as a flaw.

Also, I find your allegation, that she is fixated on one theory and cherrypicking facts only supporting that theory (and disregarding all others), to be incorrect, as she has compiled and posted a list of MULTIPLE theories [insert link here] which are plausible explanations to the subject of this thread.


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## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> @F.U.B.A.R. Interesting that you break magic off into a category separate from good, based on set/setting. If I could find good, I would be pretty damn thankful. Once I notice how good the air feels, I know I am set.



This is what I mean by 'magic' being highly subjective. To me, the magic is in the interaction with other people - the connectedness, the melding of minds. Because I only fly solo these days, the empathy and openness cannot manifest itself. But when I do get the good stuff, it is obvious that the magic would happen if I were in a social situation - whereas with the meh, sociability couldn't be further from my mind...


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## draculic acid69

Negi said:


> I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on the older people in the thread, but yes something else changed, your body over the course of 10 years (and nearly 20 years since you had the super magic experiences). I imagine the set and settings of your experiences have also changed during those time periods. I do not think it is a coincidence that many in this thread started rolling ~20 years ago, and that they also seem to get the least positive effects from mehDMA (if any) while having the lowest success rates for finding anything they consider magic.
> 
> Anyway, I can't believe I wasted my time hunting Reddit experience reports out of the dross when the true repository has been here all along: https://erowid.org/experiences/exp....A_RA&NewSort=PDD&Start=0&ShowViews=0&Cellar=0
> This is the Erowid experience vault for first time MDMA experiences, sorted to show the most recent. I encourage everyone to pick a dozen from the past two years and give them a read before deciding that most of the MDMA in the world has turned to shit and that kids these days couldn't possibly understand what real magic felt like.
> 
> Edit: I didn't realize how far behind Erowid was on publishing reports, many of those were written years ago but only very recently published. You can work around this using Google, with the string:
> site:Erowid.org "Exp Year: 2019" "MDMA (3)" "First Times"
> Replace 2019 with whatever year you want to see reports from. There aren't that many from recent years but there are certainly some glowing ones.


Getting older doesn't mean that your rolls go from magic to meh.your body doesn't just stop reacting to magic to give a meh experience.


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## draculic acid69

ThreePointCircle said:


> Chatted to my younger cousin today who has recently tried mdma (a few times).  Classic meh description.
> 
> With regards to me getting older:
> Alcohol: still the same effect as the first time
> LSD: still the same effect as the first time
> MDMA: pants
> 
> And with regard to set and setting (you doubters seem to assume that we're all watching horror movies while taking it nowadays?):  if I drink plenty of alcohol I slur my words, lose some inhibitions and fall over a lot - because that's what alcohol does.  If I take a nice amount of lsd things start to visual change - because that's what lsd does.  If I take MDMA - it doesn't give me intense euphoria even though we (used to?) call it ecstacy.
> 
> I'm glad for you that you're happy with your supply.  Many of us aren't.  Yes its weird that the testing services aren't spotting anything but people a lot more experienced in the chemistry world than me have pointed out the shortcomings of such services.  There have been good theories as to why there might be a problem - including a research paper that identified two impurities that inhibit mdma action.
> 
> At the end of the day, those of us who claim to have experienced magic and meh (some still luckily coming across magic) are not going to be convinced by your 'it's all in your head' arguments because it is such a night and day comparison.  Ultimately we need someone with high competency in chemistry analysis to compare magic and meh, or at least to analyse meh and identify someone that would cause a problem, to get to the bottom of this.  Hey, if a really top notch team did that and there was no difference - I might even think the problem was in my head lol


Which impurities exactly?
What synthesis route yeilds these?
Is it one route or multiple routes?
Is it that mdma hmcp thing I've seen on here somewhere?


----------



## draculic acid69

Negi said:


> Which meh description, a few new ones ones have emerged in recent pages. Did it:
> 
> Immediately make them feel worse than before they took the MDMA?
> Give many of the classic MDMA effects but just be very be short in duration?
> Make them feel relaxed, sleepy and not want to talk to anyone? (without any euphoria)
> 
> Can you clarify what you mean by this? If you are talking about the South Korean paper and the the discussion about M-ALPHA and MBDB that followed, I think the idea of "inhibiting" activity is just a misreading, as I posted at the time:
> 
> From my reading of that interview he is talking about the lack of any hallucinogenic activity directly caused by MBDB, not attributing to it any properties to act as an anti-psychotic and terminate any other hallucinogenic activity.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Found the paper, it seems to be this: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1124/jpet.105.084426


Having much experience with mbdp I can say it's tripper than normal mdma,causes ppl to think there places there not,causes ppl to try and turn a stereo up louder thinking there still at home when there outside a nightclub,
causes your vision to look like your looking thru a shattered windscreen and make your phone look like it's the size of a TicTac box but no it's not a 
"hallucinogen". Is it awesome? yes.yes it is.


----------



## draculic acid69

Biscuit said:


> There is no doubt in my mind there is a difference. (You nailed it HerpDerpMcDerp; and welcome to Bluelight.)
> 
> I’ve been taking MDMA pills and MDMA powder/crystal for 21 years now and after almost giving up, two months ago I had my night rocked by a 120mg dose of the most luscious, munty (of the more cheeky/naughty kind), and long lasting (with God forbid actual afterglow), MDMA crystal in many years. I was on night two as well, having used meth all day prior. Had I been younger, on night #1 and just generally less trashed, this stuff would have been the magic that I remembered from years ago, magic that I have barely encountered in Australia for more than ten years.
> 
> After earlier championing the SvsR isomer issue, I am now positive the answer to this entire issue is contained in the article indigoaura posted many pages ago, where very small quantities of two structurally similar dimers created as impurities during MDMA manufacture, could cause significant inhibition of the MDMA effects at comparatively very low amounts by binding to the neurotransmitter reuptake transporters, much like how for prescription SSRIs and SNRIs nullify the effects of MDMA into something resembling “Meh” in those people taking these drugs. (Didn’t one of the dimers show ridiculously strong affinity to ALL THREE of the significant transporters, the noradrenaline, the dopamine AND the serotonin?! A higher presence of such a chemical in a substance purporting to be “pure MDMA” is going to completely fuck up the roll and will need a much greater dose to get anywhere close to something resembling a roll.)
> 
> Whilst I would like to put together a much more thought out, well researched and diagrammatically useful post, as I have been false starting on this endeavour for months now, I thought it better to put something out there for discussion without any further delay.
> 
> It is clear that PMK glycidate could favour the creation of these dimers, especially if the PMK is not properly purified. I mean what is created when the glycidate molecule is hydrolysed, acetic acid or acetate perhaps, the very reactant which they list in one of the initial steps that gives rise to these dimers.
> 
> The other matter of significance is that of what the limiting reagent is in the reductive animation step of PMK and methylamine Into MDMA. This reaction always ideally proceeds with a significant excess of methylamine to PMK, for if there is no excess, the formation of these dimers or molecules like them is much more likely to occur.
> 
> In the old days, as it was safrole/isosafrole and the PMK produced from these that was in the shortest supply, there would never have been any question about having an excess of methylamine to this highly sought after and almost impossible to obtain precursor. However, we know now that PMK glycidates are widely available in massive quantities and so PMK is no longer going to be the limiting reagent in the reductive amination. Instead, not only might manufacturers fail to properly purify the PMK or otherwise proceed via one-pot synth straight to MDMA with potentially highly reactive hydrolysis products from the glycidate (with certain PMK glycidates being worse than others for creating such dimers, this being a further reading for different levels of “meh”), but they may be skimping on the methylamine in the reaction as well, such that there is now an undue excess of PMK made from glycidate relative to the methylamine, a factor which would strongly favour the creation of these inhibiting dimers to a much greater degree. Throw in the fact that platinum catalyst hydrogenation is now almost always used to reduce the imine as opposed to borohydride, and it’s anyone’s guess as to what mess we actually end up with.
> 
> The above hypothesis would account for why there are varying degrees of Meh (being the extent to which the MDMA does or does not have the presence of such impurities, a fact which the right laboratory could actually
> test for), why safrole produced MDMA doesn’t create this problem to the same degree, and why the change to the almost infinitely available glycidate pre-precursor may have skewed the reaction in the wrong direction on account of commercial considerations (despite the news now of stupidly high dosages of this crappy
> MDMA).
> 
> As an aside, for a long time high purity racemic methamphetamine produced from p2p has received similarly poor user reports along the lines mehMDMA despite being >90% purity - “mehMeth” if you will. And where is this P2P coming from but BMK glycidates, the PMK glycidate equivalents. Precisely the same reaction considerations to what I have described above for MDMA would apply for methamphetamine produced via this route and where the more readily available precursor might also be present in relative excess to the methylamine needed
> for the reductive amination. If similar dimers
> were produced (and I’ll find an article I have saved confirming this very thing), then these too would likely inhibit the action of the meth in similar ways.
> 
> Sorry that this post is so garbled but the earlier discussion about this and articles i refer to are buried somewhere a hundred pages or so ago. As this thought has otherwise been bubbling uselessly away in my mind for more than six months now, best I just get it down and hope that the more cleverer chemists and those more familiar with the invaluable content in these almost 300 pages, could give it further consideration.


Most commercial mdma (back before pmk glycidate) from the meh free magic era was made from Chinese mdp2p.whether or not this was made from safrole or not is unknown but it was definitely not a limiting reagent.were talking hundreds of liters per batch.so not a limiting reagent.pmk glycidate is just more openly and easily available.and seems to be used by less skilled ppl due to it being more easily accessible.theres no more glycidate than there was mdp2p.if anyone's using an excess of ketone instead of methylamine it's simply because as stated above more unskilled ppl have access to it.


----------



## draculic acid69

Slater Says said:


> I'll take straight from the lab grade 5-MAPB thank you.


I'm not 100% sure what I had a 12hr roll on was but I'm guessing it was 5mapb.awesome stuff


----------



## draculic acid69

Biscuit said:


> Maybe I misread the amount of those dimer impurities needed to potentially impact the effects of the MDMA. The main point of my post is that:
> 
> (1) I believe the glycidate would favour the production of these dimers over PMK produced from safrole
> 
> AND
> 
> (2) It is a fact that an excess of PMK to methylamine in the final step will strongly favour the production of dimers (something which greedy manufacturers with a now endless source of PMK might be more prone to do in an attempt to conserve the now (in relative terms) much more difficult to obtain methyamine)
> 
> I have no doubt that properly purified PMK made from PMK glycidate (which removes all the other hydrolysis products resulting from the splitting open of the glycidate ring from the PMK produced) that is reductively animated in an EXCESS of methylamine using sodium cyanoborohydride as the reducing agent will produce magic MDMA. It is not that there is anything special about MDMA made originally from safrole, it is that the safrole methods do not create these other problematic molecules as perhaps using these new pre-precursors does. Anyway that is the theory.
> 
> The emergence of mehMDMA coincided precisely with the emergence of the PMK glycidates as pre-precursors and decline in the use of safrole to make PMK, and the switch to catalytic metallic hydrogenation over borohydrides as the reducing agent. That is a fact and it has to be, it has to be, the cause of the problem.
> 
> The question is why and from a chemistry point of view at least, one can readily see why this new method might create certain impurities that inhibit the magical experience of MDMA giving rise to “Meh”. The mehMDMA isn’t missing something that the magical MDMA has, but rather it has something else in it that prevents it from becoming so.


It takes an Oz of platinum catalyst to make a kilo of mdma.commercial stuff is done on hundreds of kilo scale making it very expensive to use pt catalyst.pt is currently cheaper than it was a few yrs ago but still buying a 3kilos of it @$25000+ per kilo to make a hundred kilos of mdma puts it in the not happening category plus the price of all those hydrogen cylinders plus the  chemical resistant 1000litre  high pressure vessel that you'd need to mix it all in.also if u can get glycidate you can get methylamine.this isn't breaking bad where it's some unicorn chemical thats impossible to get while everything else is available irl it's the other way around.methylamine is easily made from otc stuff available anywhere in the world.


----------



## indigoaura

Kaden_Nite said:


> Yeah, okay. You clearly have issues beyond me..
> 
> You quote me, assume that my posts are responses to you, tag me in your posts and constantly attempt to open dialogue with me despite my wishes that you would not do that - then imply that I'm trying to bully you with personal attacks even though I don't know you and wouldn't fucking want to.
> 
> Maybe you wouldn't conflate people having differing views with you being personally attacked if your views weren't so heavily based on personal feelings.
> 
> I'll make this clear: I want nothing to do with you. I have no interest in talking to you or talking about you. When someone disagrees with you, you make accusations about their intentions here - but I'm not the one using the site to trade drugs and request money.
> 
> Fuck off.



@Kaden_Nite - I won't reply to you again, but an objective observation of my posts in this thread for the last several years will show that I directly reply to many people and tag them because I want to be clear with who I am replying to; I debate people when I feel they are presenting illogical or false information, and I respectfully engage with a wide variety of opinions. You got your panties in a wad originally because I dared to say one of your posts was illogical. Since then, you have made it personal many times. In your post prior to this one, you levied personal attacks by calling me specifically narcissistic and immature, and later said I lacked the ability to comprehend things. I don't think I have ever called anyone a name in this thread, although I have debated the ideas presented.

It is not personal to me because you disagree with me. A lot of people come on this thread and disagree. But when you start calling me names specifically, and now you tell me specifically to "fuck off" it is obvious that it is personal to you. And at this point, you are well outside of professionalism or respectful engagement and detouring into unnecessary ad hominem attacks. I could hypothesize about sexism here, as you disagree with other people without name calling, but there is really no point.

Also, you get me confused with other people in the thread. I have NEVER asked for money at any point here, that was Vash. I have never traded drugs with anyone in this thread, although I have sent out many samples for testing. The only thing I have done here that involves money or drugs is offer to pay directly for testing for someone, as @G_Chem will confirm.

I come from a professional community of intellectuals who value the debate experience. When someone attempts to engage you and disagrees with your opinion, that is an opportunity for respectful discourse. Your differing opinions are not a personal attack, you are right about that. But when you veer into name-calling, you are taking the conversation into a truly unfortunate direction. My opinions in this thread are based on published research and analysis of the variety of anecdotal reports that have been shared. If anyone comes into the thread with opinions based on personal feelings - it is you.

Again, if you want to come here and truly engage, please do. But, do so respectfully, and understand that people might reply to your posts (and it is not personal).


----------



## indigoaura

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> This is what I mean by 'magic' being highly subjective. To me, the magic is in the interaction with other people - the connectedness, the melding of minds. Because I only fly solo these days, the empathy and openness cannot manifest itself. But when I do get the good stuff, it is obvious that the magic would happen if I were in a social situation - whereas with the meh, sociability couldn't be further from my mind...



I can understand that. I have only rolled alone once, and ended up spending most of the time on the phone. Most of my experiences have been at home with my partner or with a small group of friends, so even though the dance-party vibe is not there, I am not isolated.


----------



## user666

draculic acid69 said:


> It takes an Oz of platinum catalyst to make a kilo of mdm


Can't the platinum catalyst be recycled ?



draculic acid69 said:


> plus the price of all those hydrogen cylinders plus the  chemical resistant 1000litre  high pressure vessel that you'd need to mix it all in.


Is the price of these really so high as to make other methods more profitable?



draculic acid69 said:


> also if u can get the Glycidate, you can get Methylamine. This isn't "Breaking Bad" where it's some unicorn chemical that's impossible to get while everything else is available. It's the other way around: Methylamine is easily made from OTC stuff available anywhere in the world.


How true


----------



## Snafu in the Void

maybe someone can help me explain the last 2 times I bought some "MDMA" in the last year I didn't get high either time...?

1st time about 5-6 months ago, was definitely an RC just by l looking at the crystals. I snorted 100mg and didn't feel shit.... whatever didn't think about it much, I was also on a bunch of other shit that night.

A few nights ago I ate 250mg and snorted 50mg (over ~6 hours) of what was clearly good MDMA (just juding by looks/taste). One of the most reputable vendors on earth....

I certainly had some mild-moderate stimulation which lasted about 12 hours. Very mild euphoria and MDMA like effects, but felt like maybe 50mg of MDMA it was very blunted....

I have no idea man... I've been doing a lot of LSD lately and took a couple antipsychotics over a month ago (but that certainly isn't blocking the LSD, so why the MDMA?)

I have nooooo clue, man... permatolerance maybe from something else? First time(s) I tried MDMA since my schizo went away a year or two ago.


----------



## indigoaura

SnafuInTheVoid said:


> maybe someone can help me explain the last 2 times I bought some "MDMA" in the last year I didn't get high either time...?
> 
> 1st time about 5-6 months ago, was definitely an RC just by l looking at the crystals. I snorted 100mg and didn't feel shit.... whatever didn't think about it much, I was also on a bunch of other shit that night.
> 
> A few nights ago I ate 250mg and snorted 50mg (over ~6 hours) of what was clearly good MDMA (just juding by looks/taste). One of the most reputable vendors on earth....
> 
> I certainly had some mild-moderate stimulation which lasted about 12 hours. Very mild euphoria and MDMA like effects, but felt like maybe 50mg of MDMA it was very blunted....
> 
> I have no idea man... I've been doing a lot of LSD lately and took a couple antipsychotics over a month ago (but that certainly isn't blocking the LSD, so why the MDMA?)
> 
> I have nooooo clue, man... permatolerance maybe from something else? First time(s) I tried MDMA since my schizo went away a year or two ago.



Without having tested the product, there is really no way to know. You can't trust appearance or smell as a way to identify. I recommend a testing kit at minimum, and ideally, send it in to a lab before consuming.


----------



## indigoaura

Testing results for @G_Chem 's hyper-sexual, "magical" product that he described some pages back: https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8890

So, in contrast to every meh sample I have sent in to Drugs Data, his results are MDMA only.

I also notice that the comments are different for the Mandelin test result. Both of my samples are listed as "Purple Brown" but @G_Chem's sample is listed as "Purple Blue Black."

Also, scroll down on each one and look at the second marquis reaction. I can see how mine both have a very slight brown/yellow tint at the edges, but G_Chem's sample is definitely more purple, with vague hints of blue.

My meh samples for reference:








						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8547 - MDMA, 8547
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				











						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8546 - MDMA, 8546
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org


----------



## Negi

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Because I only fly solo these days, the empathy and openness cannot manifest itself.


The greatest part of solo rolls for me has been the fact that the empathy and openness does manifest, and that it is directed at yourself. It can take some work to avoid being distracted away from that, and it often helps to set intentions and make preparations like writing a letter to yourself (or having a diary/journal to read). Being able to look at yourself with the clarity and love you see others with on MDMA is extraordinarily powerful.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Testing results for @G_Chem 's hyper-sexual, "magical" product that he described some pages back:
> So, in contrast to every meh sample I have sent in to Drugs Data, his results are MDMA only.
> I also notice that the comments are different for the Mandelin test result. Both of my samples are listed as "Purple Brown" but @G_Chem's sample is listed as "Purple Blue Black."
> Also, scroll down on each one and look at the second marquis reaction. I can see how mine both have a very slight brown/yellow tint at the edges, but G_Chem's sample is definitely more purple, with vague hints of blue.
> My meh samples for reference:


So below is a side-by-side composite of these reagent tests.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> Testing results for @G_Chem 's hyper-sexual, "magical" product that he described some pages back: https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8890
> 
> So, in contrast to every meh sample I have sent in to Drugs Data, his results are MDMA only.
> 
> I also notice that the comments are different for the Mandelin test result. Both of my samples are listed as "Purple Brown" but @G_Chem's sample is listed as "Purple Blue Black."
> 
> Also, scroll down on each one and look at the second marquis reaction. I can see how mine both have a very slight brown/yellow tint at the edges, but G_Chem's sample is definitely more purple, with vague hints of blue.
> 
> My meh samples for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8547 - MDMA, 8547
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #8546 - MDMA, 8546
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org



Publicly thanks again Indigo.

A few things..  Maybe their reporting MDA and MBDB is really closely related impurities they can’t quite determine?

Also as you said, all notice the indigo color on the Marquis that I was talking about.  It’s not that more standard purple you see with a lot of product, yet not quite blue either.  Matches perfectly with those amazing reports I pulled earlier.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> So below is a side-by-side composite of these reagent tests.



Almost looks like more blue in the marquis of Indigos product.. Interesting.

The mandelin indeed shows the most variance, it kind of mimics the theory I had before.  It’s bedn awhile but I remember originally thinking the difference could be seen in variations on Mandelin.  I’d have to look back at those posts to see why that theory/idea was abandoned.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Look at the second set of reagent reactions, not the first. The color difference is more clear on the 2nd set. I want to know what the difference is in those two sets.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Look at the second set of reagent reactions, not the first.


Did, I make the side-by-side composite image out of the wrong data ?


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Did, I make the side-by-side composite image out of the wrong data ?



No, you posted the correct set. I am just a bit confused about why Drugs Data lists two different sets of reactions. What is the differentiating factor? They both say they were photographed between 15-30 seconds, but they look quite different from each other.


----------



## indigoaura

Am I crazy, or do both of my Mandelin reactions show yellow? Yellow is NOT a MDX compound, and there are several options on the chart for what that could be.









						Drug Checking Kit Instructions | DanceSafe
					

An abridged version of the DanceSafe drug checking kit instruction pamphlet. Make sure to read the entire pamphlet before using reagents!




					dancesafe.org


----------



## draculic acid69

user666 said:


> Q:Can't the platinum catalyst be recycled ?
> A: yes it can be cycled thru a few times as well before it needs to be reprocessed but this involves rehydrogenating and settling which takes time between batches.it's a pain in the ass as it goes right thru filter paper and if it is filtered and starts to dry out even a little bit it can catch on fire.so fire risk,slow process rate,high cost and needing to be remade/reprocessed every few runs make pt catalyst a risky,slow,more difficult,high cost method.
> 
> 
> Q:Is the price of these really so high as to make other methods more profitable?
> A: I would say it's the most expensive route for sure.its also equipment cost.
> Google: Parr hydrogenation apparatus
> Also this video shows how it works:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now imagine trying to do that on a 100+ liter size vessel.it becomes more problematic the bigger u go.
> I think the rxn runs at about 100psi or so.these are little bench top size reactors specially designed to do this on like a 1litre scale but if doing this on a large scale you would need a 1000liter one(the cost of this would be astronomical) to process 100+litres of ketone(+3kilos of pt@$25000 per kilo)
> Makes it super expensive.on a few  kilo (of ketone) or less scale hydrogenation can be a great method and hundreds of kilos could be made this way over a few months.but it's unlikely.time is money and also risk.so much more of a slow hassle than every other method.
> 
> 
> How true


----------



## draculic acid69

indigoaura said:


> Am I crazy, or do both of my Mandelin reactions show yellow? Yellow is NOT a MDX compound, and there are several options on the chart for what that could be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drug Checking Kit Instructions | DanceSafe
> 
> 
> An abridged version of the DanceSafe drug checking kit instruction pamphlet. Make sure to read the entire pamphlet before using reagents!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dancesafe.org


Isn't yellow ketamine?


----------



## indigoaura

draculic acid69 said:


> Isn't yellow ketamine?



According to the chart, ketamine looks more orange. There are a couple of other things that are yellow though.


----------



## HerpDerpMcDerp

indigoaura said:


> According to the chart, ketamine looks more orange. There are a couple of other things that are yellow though.



The Pokeballs,  the last good e I took was said to have some ketamine in them...









						What the pokeball have in them
					

DEA Resources, Microgram, April 2009  Check out the dea microgram the pokeball have MDMA KETAMINE AND CAFFINE this shows the most rolls on the street...




					forum.grasscity.com


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> Look at the second set of reagent reactions, not the first. The color difference is more clear on the 2nd set. I want to know what the difference is in those two sets.



Me too, it’s always confused me how they put 15-30secs for both.  My best guess is the darker/first picture is about 30secs and the second picture is soon after dropping the reagents.



HerpDerpMcDerp said:


> The Pokeballs,  the last good e I took was said to have some ketamine in them...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What the pokeball have in them
> 
> 
> DEA Resources, Microgram, April 2009  Check out the dea microgram the pokeball have MDMA KETAMINE AND CAFFINE this shows the most rolls on the street...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> forum.grasscity.com



Pokeballs were ~90mg MDMA, ~20mg caffeine and 5-10mg ketamine if I remember right.  Not enough K to feel orally but I bet it did change things slightly pharmacologically.

-GC


----------



## HerpDerpMcDerp

Here's a good paper on isomers.  Just make a free account to read it.



			Medscape: Medscape Access
		


Another abstract,  saying that MDMA can change DNA 



			Medscape: Medscape Access
		


Abstract on tolerance 









						Behavioral and neurochemical effects of chronic methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) treatment in rhesus monkeys - PubMed
					

Effects of chronic treatment with the putative serotonergic neurotoxicant MDMA were assessed in rhesus macaques using behavior in an operant test battery (OTB) designed to model aspects of time estimation, short-term memory, motivation, learning, and color and position discrimination. After an...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Interesting paper on CNS activity vs. slight chemical changes



			An Evaluation of the Potential for Clandestine Manufacture of MDA Analogs  - [www.rhodium.ws]


----------



## HerpDerpMcDerp

Not sure if the paper is talking about analogs or slight molecular changes.   It's a good read...



			Clandestine Drug Synthesis - [www.rhodium.ws]
		


It is hoped that this review will bring attention to some often overlooked variables which can influence the pharmacological effects of clandestinely prepared drugs. First, that these drugs are usually impure and will predictably contain certain synthetic contaminants. Second, that the pharmacological/toxicological properties of the clandestinely manufactured drugs are dependent on the intended active component in addition to the synthetic contaminants. Finally, knowing these contaminants are present will help to better understand the medical consequences following abuse of these drugs.

Due to the numerous phenylalkylamine hallucinogens abused along with those having potential for abuse in the illicit drug market, it is useful to describe the general structure-activity relationships of these compounds as it relates to their hallucinogenic properties. This is facilitated by the excellent reviews that are currently available on hallucinogens.114,152,153 It is unique that extensive quantitative human data on these hallucinogenic phenylalkylamines are known and this can be attributed to the studies by Shulgin and coworkers. Briefly, the incorporation of a methoxyl(s) or methylenedioxy group or combination of these groups into the aromatic ring changes the activity of the phenylisopropylamine from being primarily stimulant to primarily hallucinogenic. The psychotropic potency of the compound depends not only on total density and location of substituents on the aromatic ring but also on the specific nature of the substituent. As is seen in *Table III* the 2,4,5-trisubstitution pattern gives compounds of optimal hallucinogenic activity. In all of the hallucinogens the 4-substituent is of major importance in that it can increase lipophilicity (increasing CNS penetration), provide resistance to oxidative metabolism and increase hydrophobic binding at the receptor. The nitrogen, two carbons from the aromatic ring, is required for activity and introduction of the methyl group alpha to the nitrogen increases activity over the ethylamine counterpart (this is due to both inhibition of metabolism at the nitrogen and increased lipophilicity). The alpha-methyl also introduces a chiral center in which the (_R_)-enantiomer is the more active hallucinogen.154 Generally, N-alkylation drastically attenuates the hallucinogenic activity. This is seen with the N-methyl and N-ethyl analogs of 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine in which they cause primarily stimulant activity while 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine acts primarily as a hallucinogen. Dialkylation, even in 3,4-methylendioxyamphetamine, abolishes hallucinogenic activity. The molecular mechanism responsible for the hallucinogenic effect of these phenylalkylamines is currently unknown. It is important to note that in all of these reviews, hallucinogenic activity is being evaluated and the other peripheral and CNS effects are not the focus of the review. Fatalities have not been reported with hallucinogens except for 4-methoxyamphetamine,135 4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine155 and 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine.156 Shulgin considers 4-methoxyamphetamine a "treacherous" drug to study in humans because of its steep dose-response curve. A therapeutic index of about 2.5 is suggested.114 When this drug was first available in the illicit market a number of deaths occurred throughout Canada and the United States. The toxic symptomatology which was very similar to amphetamine included agitation, convulsions, respiratory depression, hypertension and hyperthermia. The molecular mechanism of death is not known. The other hallucinogen associated with a human death, 4-bromo-2,5-dimethoxyamphetamine, appeared to be a relatively safe drug to abuse,114 however, at high doses it was observed to cause disorientation, cardiovascular distress and convulsive complications. The single death associated with this drug was at very low concentrations and based on both toxicological and pathological data it appeared to be due to an acute allergic reaction to the drug rather than its pressor effects.155 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine although relatively non-toxic, at high doses has toxic responses similar to amphetamine toxicity.157,158 For all of the hallucinogens a variety of additional pharmacological effects in animal models are known since these effects were being measured to see if they could be used to accurately predict human activity as a hallucinogen. However, how these pharmacological effects in the animal models could be used to explain toxicological effects in humans has not been evaluated.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I am just a bit confused about why Drugs Data lists two different sets of reactions. What is the differentiating factor?


Me thinks it is the quantity of the drug.
The second sets contain less concentration of the drug.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> No, you posted the correct set. I am just a bit confused about why Drugs Data lists two different sets of reactions. What is the differentiating factor? They both say they were photographed between 15-30 seconds, but they look quite different from each other.





user666 said:


> Me thinks it is the quantity of the drug.
> The second sets contain less concentration of the drug.


It should just be the same reaction after a period of time. It's not consistent though. Here's one example where you can clearly see from the writing on the test film and the positioning of the droplets it's the same reactions, then there's one like this where from how the lab ID is written differently it's clearly different tests.


----------



## G_Chem

I too have examined and determined what Negi is saying.  Some are the same and some are two different sample slides being tested.  Why they change it up, I don’t know..

-GC


----------



## user666

Take a look at the shadows of the black print and the hadwriting done by the marker.  From the ink banding and the paralax of the shadows it is obvious that the ink is on top of a reusable glass overlay and the reagents are mixed with the drug sample under the glass. Most likely on a piece of paper or white cardboard..


----------



## TripSitterNZ

On a note i can confirm those Jurassic park pills are complete magic we have them here atm and they are fucking amazing clean long strong loving roll. Proper dutch import.


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> On a note i can confirm those Jurassic park pills are complete magic we have them here atm and they are fucking amazing clean long strong loving roll. Proper dutch import.



These? https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8789


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> These? https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8789


yeah, they have a total of 260 mg mdma half of one of them is very good.


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> yeah, they have a total of 260 mg mdma half of one of them is very good.



Can't help but notice that the colors on this pill look more like G_Chem's sample on the marquis, but it has the yellow for the mandelin reaction like my samples did. The mecke on this one is super blue.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

madelin itself is a strong yellow color which will still show through once u swirl it around its important to see that its a dark blue in the first photo.  The purity tests of the three samples done by people here shows low purity mdma.


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> madelin itself is a strong yellow color which will still show through once u swirl it around its important to see that its a dark blue in the first photo.  The purity tests of the three samples done by people here shows low purity mdma.



That dark blue result is the Mecke. In the notes, they indicate that Mecke and Mandelin are switched.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> That dark blue result is the Mecke. In the notes, they indicate that Mecke and Mandelin are switched.


yeah i see but the mandelin is still dark blue aswell with a small hint of yellow which would what its original color is depending on the strength of the color change indicates a level of purity while others will still be more yellower than this one,


----------



## G_Chem

TripSitterNZ said:


> yeah i see but the mandelin is still dark blue aswell with a small hint of yellow which would what its original color is depending on the strength of the color change indicates a level of purity while others will still be more yellower than this one,



Strength of reaction can’t be used to determine purity.  Amount of material, density of material, etc all play into that.

Using reagents to look for purity only works if your testing pills, using the exact same amount of finely crushed material.  Drugs Data doesn’t even crush up the material far as I can see.

Yea I remember countless times trying to find a way to determine purity with these reagents, it ain’t happening.. Typically pills create a stronger reaction to loose shard since it’s pre-milled easily dissolved product.

Also I can say without a shadow of doubt, the product I submitted is hell of a lot more pure than an ecstasy pill that probably contains about 50% lactose/magnesium stearate/filler.

-GC


----------



## JoEhJoEh

Me, I only took MDMA crystals once , just 75 mg without tolerance and on an empty stomach. Never ever. I went out then to met a girlfriend and she was looking at me and told me - "please let us go home and you lay down on the sofa". She was already more experienced. It was so weird, my eyes were wide open, my body feeling was like i would puke but i don't. We lay on the sofa together and step by step this shitty bodyload feeling dissapeared but there was also no love feeling, nothing. And I could not bear having people around me, so i was very grateful to going home where it was cozy and my friend was here.

Ecstasy I tried 3 times or so and ONCE i had what you are talking about here: the ultimate love feeling for everybody and everything. It was half a pink adidas, I never got it again. The other two were also just half a pill, testet before (MDMA but who knows) and they were like i felt nothing. Because i took too less, but I thought no, i had THIS ONE experience and it will always be in my mind, never forget it. Since then I've never done MDMA.

JJ

P.S. the ADIDAS-PILL was testet with 120 mg MDMA, I took 60 mg and I think that is what i really like. Just a slight, nice feeling, loving the whole world. I could never ever imagine to take a pill that has 300 mg MDMA as i saw on checkit pillreports. What the fuck is then happening to you??


----------



## Observer01

I have followed this thread for over a year. I have never posted on Bluelight or any other drug focused message board,  and never was compelled to until now. However, after so much time spent on this thread, I do feel a desire to add my viewpoint. 

Experienced roller. I am 35 now, and started in 2009. I have never "stopped", but am very very respectful of the drug. I am a working professional with  a wife and 2 kids. My MDMA use is not known to many except close friends and my wife. With that said, my use is down to 2 x per year. Before that never more than 3-4 times a year. Guessing maybe 40-50 experiences total over 12 years. No binging. My personality is generally cautious regarding these things. I have experimented with single dosages between 120 to as high of a single dose at 220. I prefer 150 now. Typically redose with half of original dose at 1.5 hours. 

My first experience in 2009, which is when a lot of folks started reporting bad MDMA, was the typical magical experience. All of the amazingness and self discovery that you would expect.  

As someone who wouldn't know how to find a drug dealer if he was my next door neighbor, I was an early adopter of the darkweb and have been ordering product there since about 2012. I am very careful with my vendors and do lots of research as these experiences for me are few and far between. I do not want to waste them on bad product. 

By around 2016 I noticed a slight change in the experiences. Not really product related, just that I was more accustomed to it. It was predictable. As corny as it may sound, I felt that I had learned much of what I could from MDMA by then. I had uncovered hidden traumas, addressed them, and was the better for it. Recently with only 2 x year, I still get a great experience from the substance. I don't feel tolerance. Is it like the first 5 times I did it? No. But the drug is doing what the drug does. I know where I am going and know what to expect. To this day, it is still my favorite substance, and I treasure those 2 x year experiences. These days, it is more of a 4 hour break from daily life than anything else. It is a mini vacation of the mind. It is just more of a well worn path then the first few times and I can predict the timeline. I know the come up, the peak, the comedown, and how I will feel at each step along the way. 

I have had batches across the years that are not as good as others.  And 1 or 2 that were completely bunk. 

 I have a very mixed opinion on this thread. 

MDMA is more popular than ever. This means more demand, and more supply. When something is scaled up that much, there is going to be some loss of quality here and there. As a percentage of the total product out there in the world, there is most likely a higher percentage of dirtier or not as potent product as compared to 20 years ago. However, I am not a buyer of the so called "Meh" and "Magic" mdma theory. Yes, some product is always better than others. That will always be the case. 

My humble opinion is that a good majority of the MDMA out there is solid, and that much of the problems with MDMA here on this thread have to do with a few issues...

1.) Nostalgia for the first few experiences 

2.) Tolerance 

3.) Some Bad Product (not the main factor) 

4.) Lifestyle 

Number 4 is huge, and to me is NOT addressed enough in any of these forums. How many times have you read something like ....."I have had a break from MDMA for 5 years. During those 5 years I only rarely consumed alcohol, speed, and occasional cocaine. The experience my first time back after 5 years was not good!" Our brain and body thrive with low stress, good diet, exercise, sleep, and a sense of purpose. A 5 year tolerance break from something doesn't mean much if your lifestyle is not healthy.  In order to reverse MDMA tolerance, the brain essentially has to re-wire and heal itself. This takes time, but it also takes a healthy lifestyle. The lifestyle is more important than the time off in my opinion. 

With all of this said, I believe that the main issue people have with MDMA not working is  related to one of the above problems. Perhaps you have gained the necessary insights you needed from MDMA, and the potential isn't as great for you anymore. Perhaps your lifestyle isn't that healthy. Perhaps you have bad product. All of these scenarios can come into play. 

I realize this will not be a popular opinion with many here, and will be countered with "I gave this product to 10 newbies and nothing happened". Well...if that is really true, and you actually managed to get that many MDMA naive people together to roll, then perhaps you do have bad product and need to look elsewhere. However, I have been able to get reliably good product over the years on the darkweb by doing a moderate amount of research. I'm not using any unkown or secret vendors. They are generally well known and have good reviews. 

Either way,. thank you for reading, and don't forget to look after yourself and your well being. The reward may be a "magic " roll in the future, or even better yet a more sustainably positive existence on a day to day basis.


----------



## indigoaura

Thanks for posting, @JoEhJoEh & @Observer01!

Observer01, would you mind sharing your general region just so we have a better idea of your situation? Are you in the US and working with US DW vendors, or are you in Europe, the UK, or elsewhere?

What you are describing about MDMA becoming more predictable is definitely something that I experienced as I rolled more frequently, even when I had access to quality product. It was a very predictable experience, especially since there were not a lot of variables for me and it was typically just me and my partner listening to music and enjoying each other at home. However, it was that predictability to the experience that made the change in the experience so noticeable. You said, "I know where I am going and know what to expect...It is just more of a well worn path then the first few times and I can predict the timeline. I know the come up, the peak, the comedown, and how I will feel at each step along the way." That is exactly how I used to feel about MDMA. What would you think if that well worn path suddenly became unfamiliar and lacked the mile markers along the way? What if the come-up, the peak, and the comedown suddenly changed for you?

For me, there is a notable difference between a very familiar and predictable MDMA roll and the experiences I have had with this subpar product. 

As for lifestyle, I cannot speak for anyone else in this thread, but I do not drink at all, do not do cocaine/meth/opiates, am at a reasonable weight, and eat healthy. I regularly check in on vitamin levels, and I do have low vitamin D which could be an issue, but I think that is pretty common. I have some hormonal imbalances that could be impacting things. The only other drugs I have used have been LSD, mushrooms, and 2CX substances. 

2C substances have definitely gained that predictable quality that you reference in your post, and they do not have as intense of an effect as they did originally. However, unlike the sudden change in the MDMA experience, I find 2C substances to be very easy to recognize with characteristic qualities that make it very clear what drug was consumed. Dosage is a precise science there, and I know the variation I will experience between 15-35 mg and can tweak it according to my set/setting to achieve exactly what I want. Again, all I can say is that there is a difference between experience making something predictable and something changing so much that you feel like you took a different drug.

I feel like I know what you are describing in your post, and I have experienced it myself. For me personally, the "meh" experience is different than a "MDMA has become predictable" experience. I wish I could explain it in a way that made it clearer, and I wish I could go back to that well worn path of satisfying predictability.


----------



## Negi

I thought I would drop in an interesting Reddit report, it was titled "High Dose Mdma but i feel nothing.":


> To start off, i took mdma several times with my two good friends. The first trips i just exploded like a fucking nuclear bomb, we used the phrase ‚my fking cock is exploding‘. But sometimes i take mdma, especially the last 4/5 times, and feel nothing. Its not 100% nothing, i feel that i have something in my body that is working but i don‘t explode like i should or get at least the nice mdma feeling after the peak. My pupiles are getting big and my jaw is clenching a bit. So we tested the mdma to know that it actual mdma, we all are always taking the same (crystals) and mostly the same amount which depends on our body weight. Overall we ate shrooms today and we wanted to hippiflip. 4/5h after we took the schroom we all took mdma. I felt the comeup but i feel like i was stuck on this phase, overall i took around 500mg of clear and tested mdma crystals without even getting any results. (And yes we do make breaks around 1/2 Months at minimum between our mdma evenings) I‘m asking here if anyone is feeling the same? Or better i‘m looking for a cure xd



Aside from the mention of some pupil dilation it sounded exactly like what people here described mehDMA feeling like, all comeup but no peak, and upping the dosage having no effects.

However when I asked about if his friends were having the same response to the same MDMA:


> No the are literally exploding and having their time of their life. I mean my actual stage is not bad, it feels just like a super low dose mdma comedown. Thats why i was wondering?


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> I thought I would drop in an interesting Reddit report, it was titled "High Dose Mdma but i feel nothing.":
> 
> 
> Aside from the mention of some pupil dilation it sounded exactly like what people here described mehDMA feeling like, all comeup but no peak, and upping the dosage having no effects.
> 
> However when I asked about if his friends were having the same response to the same MDMA:



His report does sound like what is reported here. The pupil dilation is different though, as is the fact that his friends are having typical effects. 

I have not seen a lot of reports on this thread where the complaint is that one person did not roll, but other people did. Usually, the product has had the same sub-par effects on multiple people.

I know I probably seem like a broken, nostalgic record, but if I had ever seen anyone "blowing up" on the product I have, I would have accepted it as a personal issue a long time ago.


----------



## indigoaura

There was a guy on here awhile back who was a researcher, and he was studying the liver and how the liver might impact the MDMA state/loss of magic etc. I really would have liked to have known more about his thesis, because it sounded pretty interesting. He was talking about impurities possibly interfering somehow in the liver, for certain individuals only. I could see how this would make sense, especially when you think about something like CYP2D6 and how certain other medications can make the MDMA experience more intense and dangerous if CYP2D6 is tied up.

He never actually stated his full theory, but I wondered if he was theorizing that the liver (in some repeated MDMA users) becomes hyper efficient to the extent that it is eliminating the MDMA from the body before it even has a chance to create the peak experience. He suggested taking a small amount of DXM before the MDMA to recreate the original, magical experiences. That was always something that I was warned NOT to do at any cost, due to the fact that DXM would occupy those CYP2D6 enzymes.


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> something like CYP2D6 and how certain other medications can make the MDMA experience more intense and dangerous if CYP2D6 is tied up.





indigoaura said:


> He suggested taking a small amount of DXM before the MDMA to recreate the original, magical experiences.



Just my 2 cents. I take a grapefruit extract with my rolls, although I roll just fine without it. 
I just thought 'why not' if it can extend the roll, so I continue to take it.

As far as DXM, it seems that this is a very dangerous combination, as you stated.
I would go with the grapefruit juice or grapefruit extract to be safe.


----------



## Observer01

indigoaura said:


> Thanks for posting, @JoEhJoEh & @Observer01!
> 
> Observer01, would you mind sharing your general region just so we have a better idea of your situation? Are you in the US and working with US DW vendors, or are you in Europe, the UK, or elsewhere?
> 
> What you are describing about MDMA becoming more predictable is definitely something that I experienced as I rolled more frequently, even when I had access to quality product. It was a very predictable experience, especially since there were not a lot of variables for me and it was typically just me and my partner listening to music and enjoying each other at home. However, it was that predictability to the experience that made the change in the experience so noticeable. You said, "I know where I am going and know what to expect...It is just more of a well worn path then the first few times and I can predict the timeline. I know the come up, the peak, the comedown, and how I will feel at each step along the way." That is exactly how I used to feel about MDMA. What would you think if that well worn path suddenly became unfamiliar and lacked the mile markers along the way? What if the come-up, the peak, and the comedown suddenly changed for you?
> 
> For me, there is a notable difference between a very familiar and predictable MDMA roll and the experiences I have had with this subpar product.
> 
> As for lifestyle, I cannot speak for anyone else in this thread, but I do not drink at all, do not do cocaine/meth/opiates, am at a reasonable weight, and eat healthy. I regularly check in on vitamin levels, and I do have low vitamin D which could be an issue, but I think that is pretty common. I have some hormonal imbalances that could be impacting things. The only other drugs I have used have been LSD, mushrooms, and 2CX substances.
> 
> 2C substances have definitely gained that predictable quality that you reference in your post, and they do not have as intense of an effect as they did originally. However, unlike the sudden change in the MDMA experience, I find 2C substances to be very easy to recognize with characteristic qualities that make it very clear what drug was consumed. Dosage is a precise science there, and I know the variation I will experience between 15-35 mg and can tweak it according to my set/setting to achieve exactly what I want. Again, all I can say is that there is a difference between experience making something predictable and something changing so much that you feel like you took a different drug.
> 
> I feel like I know what you are describing in your post, and I have experienced it myself. For me personally, the "meh" experience is different than a "MDMA has become predictable" experience. I wish I could explain it in a way that made it clearer, and I wish I could go back to that well worn path of satisfying predictability.



I am in the western US and have always used USA based vendors. I am careful and thorough, but don't spend an insane amount of time on this aspect. 

I understand your points and they make sense. And to be clear, I have definitely had variations in product quality. However, on the whole it has mostly been capable of acheiving "magic" experiences, with a small minority of negative experiences.


----------



## indigoaura

Observer01 said:


> I am in the western US and have always used USA based vendors. I am careful and thorough, but don't spend an insane amount of time on this aspect.
> 
> I understand your points and they make sense. And to be clear, I have definitely had variations in product quality. However, on the whole it has mostly been capable of acheiving "magic" experiences, with a small minority of negative experiences.



Have you tried a lot of different vendors or mostly stuck to a few trusted people?

Were your negative experiences batch specific? In other words, did they all occur within the same batches, or did they fall within batches that you also had "magic" experiences from?


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> There was a guy on here awhile back who was a researcher, and he was studying the liver and how the liver might impact the MDMA state/loss of magic etc. I really would have liked to have known more about his thesis, because it sounded pretty interesting. He was talking about impurities possibly interfering somehow in the liver, for certain individuals only. I could see how this would make sense, especially when you think about something like CYP2D6 and how certain other medications can make the MDMA experience more intense and dangerous if CYP2D6 is tied up.
> 
> He never actually stated his full theory, but I wondered if he was theorizing that the liver (in some repeated MDMA users) becomes hyper efficient to the extent that it is eliminating the MDMA from the body before it even has a chance to create the peak experience. He suggested taking a small amount of DXM before the MDMA to recreate the original, magical experiences. That was always something that I was warned NOT to do at any cost, due to the fact that DXM would occupy those CYP2D6 enzymes.



It's interesting, in one reply he said he discounted tolerance because:


> Yeah i thought about this one. But the wird thing is that my last 6 trips, i had 4 who went like this and 2 super nice trips. Its just really weird and i can‘t explain it myself.


I asked for a timeline and he hasn't replied yet, but from the context I assume that he's had at least one "super nice" experience after he started getting the negative effects.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> It's interesting, in one reply he said he discounted tolerance because:
> 
> I asked for a timeline and he hasn't replied yet, but from the context I assume that he's had at least one "super nice" experience after he started getting the negative effects.



I clicked the link and read the whole thread. Very interesting. If his friends were also getting hit or miss experiences, I would assume that maybe the crystal was cut with something and inconsistently distributed. However, if he is the only one having these "meh" experiences while his friends have a great time, then it has to be something with him in particular. I noticed he said he does not take any medications, which would have been one of my questions for him.


----------



## cosmosmariner

Yes, but that’s the 5HT3 receptor, not the 5HT2 receptor.


----------



## Observer01

indigoaura said:


> Have you tried a lot of different vendors or mostly stuck to a few trusted people?
> 
> Were your negative experiences batch specific? In other words, did they all occur within the same batches, or did they fall within batches that you also had "magic" experiences from?



Truly, it has been both. Over 12 years I have had one or two grams I have purchased that were 100% not MDMA. The "bunk" experiences. These experiences led me to learn about reagent testing. However, there have also been times where I have had varying experiences from one batch. Meaning I was a bit run down, tired, and my head wasn't in as good of a space and this led to a mediocre roll that I never felt really peaked. Could feel the come up but no breakthrough. Same batch 6 months later coming into it with a much better headspace and better rested, great roll.


----------



## psy997

Negi said:


> However when I asked about if his friends were having the same response to the same MDMA:





indigoaura said:


> if he is the only one having these "meh" experiences while his friends have a great time, then it has to be something with him in particular. I noticed he said he does not take any medications, which would have been one of my questions for him.



Negi, thanks for bringing this piece in. We really do need as much information as we can get about the same batch being used by multiple people, and the effects on each.

I'm open to individual chemistry being the culprit here, or a large factor. Something like certain contaminants affecting absorption due to enzyme differences, or the body adapting to MDMA consumption in such a way to mute effects, like mentioned above. It's not my main theory right now mainly because I just don't see how that would be possible considering my own experiences, the way I take care of myself, etc. I'll tell you though, I'm excited to have my mind blown if it does end up being the case. That would be a major discovery. I'm not super well read on pharmaceutical history, but so far as my extensive recreational drug research goes, I've never really heard of a drug that has such a drastic shift in effect after any period of use, let alone such a variable shift as would have to be the case.

No matter what the origin of Meh experiences is, the realization of the phenomenon will be a great day in pharmacology and chemistry.


----------



## indigoaura

Observer01 said:


> Truly, it has been both. Over 12 years I have had one or two grams I have purchased that were 100% not MDMA. The "bunk" experiences. These experiences led me to learn about reagent testing. However, there have also been times where I have had varying experiences from one batch. Meaning I was a bit run down, tired, and my head wasn't in as good of a space and this led to a mediocre roll that I never felt really peaked. Could feel the come up but no breakthrough. Same batch 6 months later coming into it with a much better headspace and better rested, great roll.



Interesting. Did you end up testing those bunk batches? 

If I had to describe it, I would say that there is variation between batches and variation within batches. From my personal observation, however, there is greater variation between batches than within. If we were rating MDMA on a scale of 0-10 with 0 being bunk/inert and 10 being life-changingly magical, then I would say that within the same batch you may experience 1-2 points of variation. Not sure if that makes sense. In other words, one batch could produce a 6-8 depending on set/setting, and another batch could produce a 3-5. However, I have not personally experienced a batch that produced a 3 on one day and a 9 on another day. Similarly, I have not personally seen situations where one person got a 10 and another person just got a 5. 

The one exception to that back in the old days were MDMA virgins. A MDMA virgin would get a 10 off product that everyone else mostly thought was a 6 or 7. I have seen that before. That is why it was surprising to me when my subpar batches were also subpar to MDMA virgins.

I have also been in situations where I took one pill and was getting a 4, and then switched over to a more reliable/known pill and went to a 10 easily. That could be as simple as dosage, but it doesn't seem to happen when you continuously re-dose with the same batch that was producing that 4. 

@Negi I agree. I am open to considering all types of theories here. However, based on what I have seen personally and all of the reading I have done, I feel like the quality/purity of the MDMA has to be a major factor. 

Also, I want to add that I am not just basing this on memory. I have 8mm movies that show me, friends, acquaintances totally off our faces on pills from 2000 to 2003. I also have photos. Obviously, can't share for privacy reasons, but people rolling on subpar product do not even look the same as people rolling on good product. There is an objective, observable, noticeable difference in how people hold their jaws, body movement, eye movement, eye dilation etc.


----------



## Observer01

indigoaura said:


> Interesting. Did you end up testing those bunk batches?
> 
> If I had to describe it, I would say that there is variation between batches and variation within batches. From my personal observation, however, there is greater variation between batches than within. If we were rating MDMA on a scale of 0-10 with 0 being bunk/inert and 10 being life-changingly magical, then I would say that within the same batch you may experience 1-2 points of variation. Not sure if that makes sense. In other words, one batch could produce a 6-8 depending on set/setting, and another batch could produce a 3-5. However, I have not personally experienced a batch that produced a 3 on one day and a 9 on another day. Similarly, I have not personally seen situations where one person got a 10 and another person just got a 5.
> 
> The one exception to that back in the old days were MDMA virgins. A MDMA virgin would get a 10 off product that everyone else mostly thought was a 6 or 7. I have seen that before. That is why it was surprising to me when my subpar batches were also subpar to MDMA virgins.
> 
> I have also been in situations where I took one pill and was getting a 4, and then switched over to a more reliable/known pill and went to a 10 easily. That could be as simple as dosage, but it doesn't seem to happen when you continuously re-dose with the same batch that was producing that 4.
> 
> @Negi I agree. I am open to considering all types of theories here. However, based on what I have seen personally and all of the reading I have done, I feel like the quality/purity of the MDMA has to be a major factor.
> 
> Also, I want to add that I am not just basing this on memory. I have 8mm movies that show me, friends, acquaintances totally off our faces on pills from 2000 to 2003. I also have photos. Obviously, can't share for privacy reasons, but people rolling on subpar product do not even look the same as people rolling on good product. There is an objective, observable, noticeable difference in how people hold their jaws, body movement, eye movement, eye dilation etc.



It was a long time ago...but yes, I did test at least one of the totally bunk batches. If I remember correctly, it was a brownish/yellow on Marquis. Keep in mind, I didn't need the reagent to tell me this at the time. It was straight up crap. 1 hour after taking I knew I had gotten ripped off. It was the pre-darknet days, bought at a concert. 

I am open to the idea that there is lots of sub par product out there, and I've just been fortunate on the darknet. I do find it difficult to believe that some of the brightest folks on this thread with substantial chemistry experience can't pinpoint it though. You would think through so much effort it would be known at this point what the issue is. Additionally, I'm curious why everyone thinks  MDMA has seen such a huge growth with especially the younger generation, if it was really just producing subpar experiences? There has to be a large amount of good product out there for such a drug to spread in popularity so substantially no? I can't imagine all these teens and twenty somethings jumped on the bandwagon for a tired, anti-social, negative feeling experience? 

I wish you all the best in the search! I'll check back in a few months and see if anything has been uncovered. Good luck guys.


----------



## indigoaura

Observer01 said:


> It was a long time ago...but yes, I did test at least one of the totally bunk batches. If I remember correctly, it was a brownish/yellow on Marquis. Keep in mind, I didn't need the reagent to tell me this at the time. It was straight up crap. 1 hour after taking I knew I had gotten ripped off. It was the pre-darknet days, bought at a concert.
> 
> I am open to the idea that there is lots of sub par product out there, and I've just been fortunate on the darknet. I do find it difficult to believe that some of the brightest folks on this thread with substantial chemistry experience can't pinpoint it though. You would think through so much effort it would be known at this point what the issue is. Additionally, I'm curious why everyone thinks  MDMA has seen such a huge growth with especially the younger generation, if it was really just producing subpar experiences? There has to be a large amount of good product out there for such a drug to spread in popularity so substantially no? I can't imagine all these teens and twenty somethings jumped on the bandwagon for a tired, anti-social, negative feeling experience?
> 
> I wish you all the best in the search! I'll check back in a few months and see if anything has been uncovered. Good luck guys.



I think if those chemistry minded people had access to the right testing equipment, we could very quickly move the conversation forward in one way or another. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the tools we need to figure anything out.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> I think if those chemistry minded people had access to the right testing equipment, we could very quickly move the conversation forward in one way or another. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the tools we need to figure anything out.


What specific tests do you think would be more conclusive than the multiple results from established and experienced drug testing services?


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> What specific tests do you think would be more conclusive than the multiple results from established and experienced drug testing services?



I think it would help to be able to look at the actual raw data as opposed to the interpretation of the machine according to the standards they have installed and the settings they have set up. Also, it would help to look at both GCMS and NMR data. 

There have been several studies that specifically talk about some of the more difficult to identify compounds not showing up at all on GCMS due to "overlapping peaks." Some studies indicated that you have to look at NMR to see the contaminant.



> When other compounds exist that have the potential to producethe same or nearly identical mass spectrum as the drug of interest, the identification bygas chromatography (GC)-MS must be based primarily upon the ability of the chromatographic system to separate the counterfeit substance from the actual drug of abuse. Those substances coeluting with the drug of abuse in chromatographic systems could be misidentified as the drug of abuse (Aalberg).



Another study found that out of 28 seized ecstasy tablets in Spain in 2007, 9 of the 28 contained a regioisomer for MDMA.



> The analytical results indicate that the samples in which an uncoupling of the peak assigned to the MDMA was observed contained 2 or more of the 10 regioisomers present in MDMA. The presence of one, or several, of these regioisomers can easily go undetected in routine analyses and may lead to important measurement errors.





> Of the 28 samples analyzed, 9 were found to have high impurity levels of compounds with an equal molecular weight to MDMA (regioisomers of the substance) but different structure and thus having a different effect on the organism. These compounds are often due to a total lack of quality control, in both the products used in the synthesis (precursors, solvents and other reactives) and the development of the process itself (insufficient reaction time, etc.).





> The analytical results indicate that the samples, in which overlapped peaks assigned to MDMA were observed, contain 2 or more of the 10 regioisomers that exist in MDMA. The presence of one, or several, of these regioisomers can easily be missed in routine analyses and can lead to an important error of quantification.



Link: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ethylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills

Both of these studies I have as PDF files if you would like them. When I try to link them directly, the links expire and then are dead links. So, if this link does not work for you, let me know.

Also, from talking to both Drugs Data and Energy Control, it is clear to me that it is not a 100% exact science. When I asked IEC what made up the 20% of my sample that was not documented, they told me they would have to run a different analysis in order to determine that. In other words, they have the settings set up a particular way, to meet the needs of most of their customers. They can only identify chemicals they have the standards for, and they do not have the machine calibrated to identify byproducts. I still have to send that sample back to them for a byproducts analysis, but I have been isolating in my house due to high COVID in my area and I have not wanted to go in a post office. 

To be clear - it is not that I think that the drug testing services are doing anything wrong, but my understanding is that the machine has to know what it is looking for in order for it to be identified. Just recently, Drugs Data mentioned that they were busy with a project that involved loading a whole bunch of new chemical standards to search for. Another example would be the recent study where the researchers had to identify the new M-Alpha compound that was found in an ecstasy tablet, but they did not know what it was at first.

So, overall, I think that unless people are looking very specifically and with a fine tooth comb, there are a lot of substances that may go undetected. This is documented in research and discussed at length. I don't mean any of this as a criticism of the drug testing companies, who are providing an amazing service. But, they are not set up to search to that level of detail.


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> What specific tests do you think would be more conclusive than the multiple results from established and experienced drug testing services?


Derivatized liquid chromatography in a chiral column followed by two or more molecular identification methods of EACH fraction, i.e.: 13C-NMR, 1H-NMR, Raman, IR, etc.
...and most importantly - access to raw chromatograms and spectrograms.


----------



## vecktor

indigoaura said:


> I think if those chemistry minded people had access to the right testing equipment, we could very quickly move the conversation forward in one way or another. Unfortunately, we don't have access to the tools we need to figure anything out.


The hold up is more the licenses required, there are significant barriers to obtaining a license and if you say something the government doesn't like or doesn't want to hear then the license is removed (witness Shulgin), 

There is an idea that the drug testing organizations primarily actually care about providing accurate information to the users rather than just making money running through as many tests as possible, with a profitable sideline of selling the information to law enforcement intelligence and grabbing easy state funding. This seems to be a truth no matter how noble the original intention of an organization was.

This Faustian bargain is how academics though to drug testing organizations Like DD and EC are controlled and owned by the ideological drug warriors, they are simply two sides of the same coin. These drug testing organizations would not exist without prohibition and so the status quo remains because it suits all the players. The users are incidental to this power game, nobody cares about them.

For example Drugs Data already have the full data output of every test they have ever done, as does Energy Control and Wedinos yet it seems they are all reluctant to provide this data they already have, coming up with bullshit excuses (EC in particular), the question is why?  I suspect they do not want their data examined too closely because they fear their methodology may be flawed and what they tell their customers is not really supported by their data or methodology. Stateside it could be that the old DEA rules that prohibited analytically quantifying anonymous samples are still being enforced on Schedule 1 license holders. Either way there is no money in providing an answer which is sad because we are all poorer for not knowing.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Negi said:


> Which meh description, a few new ones ones have emerged in recent pages. Did it:
> 
> Immediately make them feel worse than before they took the MDMA?
> Give many of the classic MDMA effects but just be very be short in duration?
> Make them feel relaxed, sleepy and not want to talk to anyone? (without any euphoria)


Lack of euphoria.  Short duration.  Feel a desire to redose to try and chase after an effect that's not quite happening.  I think first time energy levels were ok (but didn't seem anything special), but subsequent occasions were more sedating.  Said enjoyed it, but seemed like nothing special compared to anything else.  Certainly not the 'ecstasy' that xtc should give.

I then run past him the idea that the current generation were happy if they just got wasted, and he said that was true.



Negi said:


> So I read through the inhibiting impurities paper, was it ever discussed in detail in this thread? Anyway, in it the two impurities found to have an inhibiting effect on releasing by MDMA were specific impurities created during the Leukart method. They did not seem to be especially potent compared to MDMA, byproduct 12 (the one they give the most information for) has little effect on SERT and NET activity caused by MDMA when present at ~33% of the MDMA concentration, and needed to be present in equal quantity to MDMA to reduce the SERT and NET releasing by more than 20%. DAT was different, with the 33% byproduct concentration having a ~25% reduction in MDMA induced release. This makes sense considering MDMA has a considerably higher affinity for SERT and NET than DAT.



Yes, but my point is that we have a few hypotheses now that have reasonable evidence to say they 'might' be the source of the problem.  I've always felt active impurities felt like the cause because of the nature of the come up being clamped off, and this paper gives at least some support to the possibility of that.  Ultimately, I and I hope everyone else, will only be convinced by high quality analysis of meh and magic samples.  We're all just discussing theories at this point.



draculic acid69 said:


> Which impurities exactly?
> What synthesis route yeilds these?
> Is it one route or multiple routes?
> Is it that mdma hmcp thing I've seen on here somewhere?


1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-propanamine and N-formyl1,3-bis (3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-prop-2-yl-amine.  Via Leucart-Wallach and reductive amination but not via bromopropane method if I'm reading it right.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

vecktor said:


> The hold up is more the licenses required, there are significant barriers to obtaining a license and if you say something the government doesn't like or doesn't want to hear then the license is removed (witness Shulgin),
> 
> There is an idea that the drug testing organizations primarily actually care about providing accurate information to the users rather than just making money running through as many tests as possible, with a profitable sideline of selling the information to law enforcement intelligence and grabbing easy state funding. This seems to be a truth no matter how noble the original intention of an organization was.
> 
> This Faustian bargain is how academics though to drug testing organizations Like DD and EC are controlled and owned by the ideological drug warriors, they are simply two sides of the same coin. These drug testing organizations would not exist without prohibition and so the status quo remains because it suits all the players. The users are incidental to this power game, nobody cares about them.
> 
> For example Drugs Data already have the full data output of every test they have ever done, as does Energy Control and Wedinos yet it seems they are all reluctant to provide this data they already have, coming up with bullshit excuses (EC in particular), the question is why?  I suspect they do not want their data examined too closely because they fear their methodology may be flawed and what they tell their customers is not really supported by their data or methodology. Stateside it could be that the old DEA rules that prohibited analytically quantifying anonymous samples are still being enforced on Schedule 1 license holders. Either way there is no money in providing an answer which is sad because we are all poorer for not knowing.



Do you think there's any chance of talking someone from the research community into looking into this or is getting the testing organisations to up their game about the only option for a decent analysis to be done?


----------



## andyturbo

ThreePointCircle said:


> Do you think there's any chance of talking someone from the research community into looking into this or is getting the testing organisations to up their game about the only option for a decent analysis to be done?



Thats not such a bad idea. The more people we had behind the request the more weight it would carry. Im happy to both individually back it and also endorse www.pillreports.net full support if that would help I dont know.


----------



## indigoaura

For whatever it is worth, from communicating with earth from Drugs Data for a long time now, I do not think there is any ulterior motive at play. I think they are underfunded, understaffed, and ultimately more concerned with immediate needs like testing the incoming samples than digging into a hypothesis about "loss of magic" being rooted in drug purity (from their perspective).  The idea of loss of magic is embedded into MDMA culture and widely accepted. Why consider another explanation at all? Drugs Data has been slowly pursuing the concept, and they bought the standards associated with several of the regioisomers.  I am still hoping that they will, at some point, be willing to share the raw data with me for my samples and @G_Chem's sample, but they are tied up with another project right now.

Also, I think our question will eventually be answered by MAPS. One of their recent chemistry announcements talked about how specific the synthesis process is for MDMA, and how even ambient temperature can change the outcome. They claim they will be releasing their standards for MDMA production, and at that point, any chemist that cares will be able to follow those guidelines. They may even identify some of the undesirable outcomes when production is botched. It is just a matter of time before MDMA is FDA approved in the USA, and the whole game changes.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> ... any chemist that cares...



Got a horrid feeling that if the mdma producers did care then we wouldn't be in this mess


----------



## G_Chem

ThreePointCircle said:


> Got a horrid feeling that if the mdma producers did care then we wouldn't be in this mess



They’re out there, it’s just the product often sells for more than most are willing to pay (I pay a bit more than most despite who I know but it seems very worth it) and once someone like me finds some we buy up what we can (or what I can afford, 3.5-7g typically) and then share it amongst friends.

This is actually the only drug I won’t guve out to strangers cuz it’s too rare to do so.  You can see me walking around handing out LSD, DMT, K, what have you... But only my friends do I share MDMA.

Plus it’s worth it to me to see my close family, friends and loved ones rolling hard, and in essence that’s what this drug is all about.  Sharing moments with loved ones, Id rather burn a gram getting 6 people rolling than save it all for me.

Maybe this is part of why I roll so good... I love doing things which release oxytocin.  Giving gifts to others releases oxytocin, which in turn boosts the empathogenic side of the experience.  I imagine giving MDMA is like the ultimate in “gift giving oxytocin release” lol.

Speaking of I might roll again this weekend, 50/50 with the sample recently analyzed mixed with some very pure standard clear shard.  Expect it to be a good weekend!

-GC


----------



## andyturbo

G_Chem said:


> They’re out there, it’s just the product often sells for more than most are willing to pay (I pay a bit more than most despite who I know but it seems very worth it) and once someone like me finds some we buy up what we can (or what I can afford, 3.5-7g typically) and then share it amongst friends.
> 
> This is actually the only drug I won’t guve out to strangers cuz it’s too rare to do so.  You can see me walking around handing out LSD, DMT, K, what have you... But only my friends do I share MDMA.
> 
> Plus it’s worth it to me to see my close family, friends and loved ones rolling hard, and in essence that’s what this drug is all about.  Sharing moments with loved ones, Id rather burn a gram getting 6 people rolling than save it all for me.
> 
> Maybe this is part of why I roll so good... I love doing things which release oxytocin.  Giving gifts to others releases oxytocin, which in turn boosts the empathogenic side of the experience.  I imagine giving MDMA is like the ultimate in “gift giving oxytocin release” lol.
> 
> Speaking of I might roll again this weekend, 50/50 with the sample recently analyzed mixed with some very pure standard clear shard.  Expect it to be a good weekend!
> 
> -GC



I feel you man. Over a decade ago I started buying bulk pills and selling (because i was geting personal use awesome pills and wished my clubing mates were rolling like I was)

That spread fast to friends of friends. Maybe 3 months in i would get 100 before each weekend and I realized i was making no profit. Just breaking even, but didnt even once cant or care about profit. I would give half away because it was insane being at a rave with 20 mates all in magic land ect..

I totally get your rolling by yourself vs with others even if its your stuff.


----------



## G_Chem

andyturbo said:


> I feel you man. Over a decade ago I started buying bulk pills and selling (because i was geting personal use awesome pills and wished my clubing mates were rolling like I was)
> 
> That spread fast to friends of friends. Maybe 3 months in i would get 100 before each weekend and I realized i was making no profit. Just breaking even, but didnt even once cant or care about profit. I would give half away because it was insane being at a rave with 20 mates all in magic land ect..
> 
> I totally get your rolling by yourself vs with others even if its your stuff.



Man and I feel like that way of MDMA culture is dying, if I remember correct your a bit old school yourself right? 90’s raver? I feel the very fact this behavior is fading away along with other loving/giving behaviors which show an overall change in product for the mass of users.  That’s the reason I still hang in this thread, I remember a time when things were very different.  I refuse to put it down cultural changes or whatever.

You telling me that story reminds me of a time when people would very often share pills, even if they could barely afford it or weren’t making money, just so everyone was having a good time.

I remember folks giving away all their pills rolling only to wake up the next day with that kinda bummed but still happy they at least made everyone’s night lol.

Idk maybe it’s all the K people be sniffing these days too.. Don’t get me wrong I like it, but it’s definitely ruined things a bit.  Let’s put it this way, in my area we could probably do with 1/10th or less the total amount of K circulating to keep things at a level that’s not “excessive.”

I then wonder, is K big now because MDMA has changed? It was right when our local producer shut down of the very magic pills that K began to grow in popularity.  Probably coincidence but worth thinking about..  Thankfully my connections stayed good but I can see a lot less overall love and connection than before when these pills were everywhere .

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> Man and I feel like that way of MDMA culture is dying...


So I talked again to my cousin, who is current gen, and asked him did they ever call mdma xtc nowadays?  They don't, although they are aware of the term.  Apparently they call it dizz is something like that.  But its this thing about lack of euphoria which strikes me so much.  They're not getting it, and to me xtc was the guaranteed euphoria pill (with the pro love nature and dancing being the other two features).  Found out they tend to snort lines of the stuff like it was coke, just to try and get a meaningful hit off it.  Crazy!  Sad for us, sad for them.



G_Chem said:


> They’re out there, it’s just the product often sells for more than most are willing to pay


As an experiment I tried going for a couple of listings on the DMs that were quite a bit more expensive.  Still meh unfortunately.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

andyturbo said:


> Thats not such a bad idea. The more people we had behind the request the more weight it would carry. Im happy to both individually back it and also endorse www.pillreports.net full support if that would help I dont know.


That's great.  I'm not sure the best approach to take but hopefully we can come up with something.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> Man and I feel like that way of MDMA culture is dying, if I remember correct your a bit old school yourself right? 90’s raver? I feel the very fact this behavior is fading away along with other loving/giving behaviors which show an overall change in product for the mass of users.  That’s the reason I still hang in this thread, I remember a time when things were very different.  I refuse to put it down cultural changes or whatever.
> 
> You telling me that story reminds me of a time when people would very often share pills, even if they could barely afford it or weren’t making money, just so everyone was having a good time.
> 
> I remember folks giving away all their pills rolling only to wake up the next day with that kinda bummed but still happy they at least made everyone’s night lol.
> 
> Idk maybe it’s all the K people be sniffing these days too.. Don’t get me wrong I like it, but it’s definitely ruined things a bit.  Let’s put it this way, in my area we could probably do with 1/10th or less the total amount of K circulating to keep things at a level that’s not “excessive.”
> 
> I then wonder, is K big now because MDMA has changed? It was right when our local producer shut down of the very magic pills that K began to grow in popularity.  Probably coincidence but worth thinking about..  Thankfully my connections stayed good but I can see a lot less overall love and connection than before when these pills were everywhere .
> 
> -GC



Don't forget that this has happened before. The 80s ravers became disillusioned with the whole scene because the pills were becoming shit.

Then the Mitsubishis hit.


We need another renaissance...


----------



## mind-body-soul

G_Chem said:


> Man and I feel like that way of MDMA culture is dying, if I remember correct your a bit old school yourself right? 90’s raver? I feel the very fact this behavior is fading away along with other loving/giving behaviors which show an overall change in product for the mass of users.  That’s the reason I still hang in this thread, I remember a time when things were very different.  I refuse to put it down cultural changes or whatever.
> 
> You telling me that story reminds me of a time when people would very often share pills, even if they could barely afford it or weren’t making money, just so everyone was having a good time.
> 
> I remember folks giving away all their pills rolling only to wake up the next day with that kinda bummed but still happy they at least made everyone’s night lol.
> 
> Idk maybe it’s all the K people be sniffing these days too.. Don’t get me wrong I like it, but it’s definitely ruined things a bit.  Let’s put it this way, in my area we could probably do with 1/10th or less the total amount of K circulating to keep things at a level that’s not “excessive.”
> 
> I then wonder, is K big now because MDMA has changed? It was right when our local producer shut down of the very magic pills that K began to grow in popularity.  Probably coincidence but worth thinking about..  Thankfully my connections stayed good but I can see a lot less overall love and connection than before when these pills were everywhere .
> 
> -GC


The change in the drug (mdma) resulted in the loss of that culture. Even the music is soulless now. I really hope the answer to this issue is found. I miss being in complete and utter peace with myself.


----------



## HerpDerpMcDerp

ThreePointCircle said:


> That's great.  I'm not sure the best approach to take but hopefully we can come up with something.



I totally get you on the music.  I loved house starting in the 90s and I don't listen to 4 on the floor anymore because there's no innovation, at least from what I've been hearing.   I think sound design came back with nuerofunk,  but I don't want to change the subject. 

I just kills me that someone knows what's going on with the meh and magic,  but we don't.   I that gets fixed, the scene will get fixed.  Someone knows though.


----------



## indigoaura

HerpDerpMcDerp said:


> I totally get you on the music.  I loved house starting in the 90s and I don't listen to 4 on the floor anymore because there's no innovation, at least from what I've been hearing.   I think sound design came back with nuerofunk,  but I don't want to change the subject.
> 
> I just kills me that someone knows what's going on with the meh and magic,  but we don't.   I that gets fixed, the scene will get fixed.  Someone knows though.



You know, I don't even know if I believe people know what is going on. I almost think that there is some oddity with a dirty precursor, or some shortcut in the production process, and the end result looks right, and fucks you up, and makes you money so...who cares? The people making it may have no clue. Unless you want to take it in a more "conspiracy theory" direction and think that the government or someone decided it was not good for business to have so much love in the world, and they deliberately flooded the market with similar but not so similar product... I mean, what could have shut down the rave scene faster?


----------



## HerpDerpMcDerp

indigoaura said:


> You know, I don't even know if I believe people know what is going on. I almost think that there is some oddity with a dirty precursor, or some shortcut in the production process, and the end result looks right, and fucks you up, and makes you money so...who cares? The people making it may have no clue. Unless you want to take it in a more "conspiracy theory" direction and think that the government or someone decided it was not good for business to have so much love in the world, and they deliberately flooded the market with similar but not so similar product... I mean, what could have shut down the rave scene faster?



Honestly,  that thought came to my mind, no joke.  I'm sure they know what's going on and would rather have people checking out instead of sharing loving vibes.  Where is Sasha when you need him?

Do you think his wife would know?  Ann might want to get the word out...maybe.


----------



## draculic acid69

G_Chem said:


> Man and I feel like that way of MDMA culture is dying, if I remember correct your a bit old school yourself right? 90’s raver? I feel the very fact this behavior is fading away along with other loving/giving behaviors which show an overall change in product for the mass of users.  That’s the reason I still hang in this thread, I remember a time when things were very different.  I refuse to put it down cultural changes or whatever.
> 
> You telling me that story reminds me of a time when people would very often share pills, even if they could barely afford it or weren’t making money, just so everyone was having a good time.
> 
> I remember folks giving away all their pills rolling only to wake up the next day with that kinda bummed but still happy they at least made everyone’s night lol.
> 
> Idk maybe it’s all the K people be sniffing these days too.. Don’t get me wrong I like it, but it’s definitely ruined things a bit.  Let’s put it this way, in my area we could probably do with 1/10th or less the total amount of K circulating to keep things at a level that’s not “excessive.”
> 
> I then wonder, is K big now because MDMA has changed? It was right when our local producer shut down of the very magic pills that K began to grow in popularity.  Probably coincidence but worth thinking about..  Thankfully my connections stayed good but I can see a lot less overall love and connection than before when these pills were everywhere .
> 
> -GC


Ketamine hasn't been available in Australia since 2006.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

draculic acid69 said:


> Ketamine hasn't been available in Australia since 2006.


ketamine has always been available in australia its easy as fuck to get in perth and Melbourne high quality stuff aswell.


----------



## majk13

as for events, I often went to them on purpose without anything, when the party started I looked for the most made people in the crowd and asked if they would sell me something ... they would never refuse and this is how I often gained good mdma


----------



## tired of crap

@indigoaura 
What if we’re looking at this backwards and there was an impurity in the old s synth that synergized or potentiated the experience


----------



## user666

tired of crap said:


> What if we’re looking at this backwards and there was an impurity in the old s synth that synergized or potentiated the experience


Then the MAPS project would be using the MehMDMA.

There is a way for us to find out, without their help, though.
Namely, one of us has to chromatographically purify a known MehMDMA sample and test it on multiple users, whether the objective and subjective pharmacological effects improve significantly.
The sample, column, silica gel, solvents, stains or lights/filters would cost several thousands of USD. (or below a thousand if you are willing to cut-corners).


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I mean, what could have shut down the rave scene faster?


Poisoning the well is more effective than putting suppliers and users in jail.

However, the government (or powers that be) do not have the power to corrupt most clandestine manufacturers directly.  The only way the manufacturing scene can be influenced on a mass scale is indirectly through precursors. e.g.:
1) Flooding the market with a cheap contaminated precursor
2) Turning a blind eye to a clean precursor, which is known to yield a Meh product naturally in cheap/sloppy/corner-cutting synths.

Since the obvious suspect here is the MD-P2P Glycidate, which has been banned in recent years, we can expect a shift in manufacturing methods as its stashes are being slowly exhausted.

What "new" precursor will be used next ? ...maybe Piperonal or Helional, or something novel entirely.
Will the MDMA made out of these "new" precursors be different ?  There is no theoretical reason for it to be, but for practical cheap/sloppy synths - it might be.

Anyway, we might be seeing a shift in the quality of MDMA being released today already, which will complicate the answer to the subject of this thread even further.


----------



## G_Chem

From what I’ve heard it’s going to be another similar ketone-substituted compound that skirts the laws still...  Pretty sure it’s already in the works too.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

tired of crap said:


> @indigoaura
> What if we’re looking at this backwards and there was an impurity in the old s synth that synergized or potentiated the experience



This is one of the potential theories. Somewhere in this thread, I proposed multiple thesis statements based on the existing evidence, and this was one of them. I would have to find that post though.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> From what I’ve heard it’s going to be another similar ketone-substituted compound that skirts the laws still...  Pretty sure it’s already in the works too.


It is possible to make MDMA base out of air  
At least in theory.


----------



## HerpDerpMcDerp

I just started watching The Business of Drugs, Synthetic episode, and saw that Paul F. Daley is the Research Director & Chemist of the Alexander Shulgin Institute.  If my understanding is correct, wasn't it Erwoid who was archiving Shulgin's notes and isn't Bluelight somehow connected with Erwoid?  

Can one of the mods here reach out to Daley and see what his thoughts are?  I have no problem emailing him, but I'm just a random guy on the net and I'd sound ignorant since I have no chemistry knowledge, unlike other people here.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Seen tab test done on 300 mg dutch pills which turned out to actually be 180 mg mdma and 2 mg of speed from a big supplier yet people claim its the cleanest rolls they have done. Speed + mdma has always been good imo. 

So these "high dose" pills don't acutally contain alot of these crazy amounts and are acutally under 200 mg instead of the advertised 300 mg.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

But 2mg of amphetamine is a very low dose. Is there some synergism going on here?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> But 2mg of amphetamine is a very low dose. Is there some synergism going on here?


even small amounts change up the experience a little bit large amounts totally different. Its a good combo for heavy bpm trance music where you need some extra energy to keep up on top of the roll.


----------



## majk13

TripSitterNZ said:


> Seen tab test done on 300 mg dutch pills which turned out to actually be 180 mg mdma and 2 mg of speed from a big supplier yet people claim its the cleanest rolls they have done. Speed + mdma has always been good imo.
> 
> So these "high dose" pills don't acutally contain alot of these crazy amounts and are acutally under 200 mg instead of the advertised 300 mg.


Its those jurassic you said magic?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

majk13 said:


> Its those jurassic you said magic?


no jurassic is 260 mg of mdma though other pills from the same dutch source are also tested lower and with speed. Anything i done from that source has always been amazing.


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

May be the wrong thread for this but do any of you plant Sassafras? I've had the idea of planting some and hoping I live long enough to see it mature.


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> Seen tab test done on 300 mg dutch pills which turned out to actually be 180 mg mdma and 2 mg of speed...


By "speed" do you mean amphetamine or methamphetamine ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> By "speed" do you mean amphetamine or methamphetamine ?


amphetamine


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> amphetamine


Does that make people horny ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> Does that make people horny ?


yeah very horny makes it easier to get a erection if mixed with mdma without i couldn't. On pure pharma amphetamine its easy to get lost in hours long masturbation sessions if you have nothing else to do with the stimulation.


----------



## majk13

TripSitterNZ said:


> no jurassic is 260 mg of mdma though other pills from the same dutch source are also tested lower and with speed. Anything i done from that source has always been amazing.


Name of those pills?


----------



## indigoaura

@G_Chem's hyper-sexual MDMA experience was sent in to Ecstasy Data and no amphetamine or methamphetamine was found in the crystal.

I do not doubt that adding speed to a roll changes the quality of the experience. I have taken pills where the orange marquis reaction was there as well as the purple MDMA reaction, and they were definitely different than the MDMA only pills. Sexually, for me it resulted in some oddities that were not usually present in my MDMA only rolls, but I can't say that I found it preferable to the typical sexual rolls going around at that time. Then, there were the annoying characteristics of not being able to sleep and sometimes intense paranoia and anxiety on the day after. 

However, I really feel that for clarity in this thread we need to stop floating this hypothesis that the reason MDMA felt different before was speed, or the reason that MDMA is sexual is speed.

Amphetamine and methamphetamine are known compounds that labs are looking for. I trust that if there was either in a sample, Drugs Data would see it and identify it due to the fact that they are already looking for it.

None of the samples I sent in from 2000-2005 had speed in them, and G_Chem's recent and classic "pants tent" experience has now been confirmed to be MDMA only, as far as the lab can tell.

So, we have multiple pieces of evidence that show that this is not the missing puzzle piece, and I feel like it confuses newer contributors to the thread. 

Not that I don't think it is interesting to ponder the variables of various drug mixtures, I do find that fascinating discussion, but I don't think adding speed to the mix is the answer we are looking for.


----------



## G_Chem

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> But 2mg of amphetamine is a very low dose. Is there some synergism going on here?



Yup I can attest 2mg of both pure meth and amp will very positively alter the roll without over taking it so long as the user isn’t burnt out speed user.

I agree with Indigo though that it’s not the answer to why people feel product has changed.

-GC


----------



## draculic acid69

HeadphonesandLSD said:


> May be the wrong thread for this but do any of you plant Sassafras? I've had the idea of planting some and hoping I live long enough to see it mature.


Hoja santa.fuk waiting yrs for a full grown tree.hoja Santa.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

user666 said:


> Does that make people horny ?





G_Chem said:


> ositvely alter the roll witu e
> so long as the user isn’t burnt out speed user.


.

Bah! That's me fucked then...


----------



## G_Chem

draculic acid69 said:


> Hoja santa.fuk waiting yrs for a full grown tree.hoja Santa.



I’ve been thinking about this before.  I may try to grow some out.



F.U.B.A.R. said:


> .
> 
> Bah! That's me fucked then...



2mg FUB, just take 200 and you’ll be set. 

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Finally got my hands on the product my brother has been saving for me, according to him it’s top quality and with how burnt out he is I trust him lol.

It looks very pure, much like a lot of the product I get but I think this batch solidifies in me what a shard of high purity MDMA looks like.

Shards which are nearly clear/slight cloudy in larger forms but as they break down, the pieces which are 5-20mg are pretty much see through.  Has the typical fused HCl look but again IMO highly pure product has a particular formation almost as if your can see a lot of very well defined crystals all melted together.  Less pure product just looks like an opaque rock often.

Didn’t roll this weekend but might next, excited to eat this stuff.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I was researching another topic, and I stumbled down a rabbit hole that may be relevant to our thread.

Specifically, I was researching Zinc deficiencies and how Zinc impacts hormone levels. 

First, I read this, "Zinc also improves the stability of oxytocin, and the stabilization effect is correlated with the ability of the divalent metal to interact with oxytocin. Zinc is essential for the binding of oxytocin to its cellular receptor " (https://www.intechopen.com/books/nutritional-deficiency/zinc-deficiency).

That made me stop and ponder the implications of Zinc deficiency on the MDMA experience. So, I decided to see if there were additional possibly relevant connections between Zinc & neurochemistry.

That led me to this dense article:








						Zinc in the Monoaminergic Theory of Depression: Its Relationship to Neural Plasticity
					

Preclinical and clinical studies have demonstrated that zinc possesses antidepressant properties and that it may augment the therapy with conventional, that is, monoamine-based, antidepressants. In this review we aim to discuss the role of zinc in the ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Admittedly, I have only scratched the surface of that article. However, there are potentially significant interactions. The article goes into detail about Zinc's role with SERT, DAT, and NET transporters as well as the entire serotonergic system. I had no idea that Zinc played such a tremendous role in brain functioning and depression.

If I am reading all of this correctly, it seems like Zinc deficiency could lead to improperly functioning oxytocin receptors as well as a sub-optimal serotonergic system.

Someone asked awhile back if all of the people who are experiencing MehDMA could have a common factor between them. What if that factor is Zinc deficiency?


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> I was researching another topic, and I stumbled down a rabbit hole that may be relevant to our thread.
> 
> Specifically, I was researching Zinc deficiencies and how Zinc impacts hormone levels.
> 
> First, I read this, "Zinc also improves the stability of oxytocin, and the stabilization effect is correlated with the ability of the divalent metal to interact with oxytocin. Zinc is essential for the binding of oxytocin to its cellular receptor " (https://www.intechopen.com/books/nutritional-deficiency/zinc-deficiency).
> 
> That made me stop and ponder the implications of Zinc deficiency on the MDMA experience. So, I decided to see if there were additional possibly relevant connections between Zinc & neurochemistry.
> 
> That led me to this dense article:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Zinc in the Monoaminergic Theory of Depression: Its Relationship to Neural Plasticity
> 
> 
> Preclinical and clinical studies have demonstrated that zinc possesses antidepressant properties and that it may augment the therapy with conventional, that is, monoamine-based, antidepressants. In this review we aim to discuss the role of zinc in the ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Admittedly, I have only scratched the surface of that article. However, there are potentially significant interactions. The article goes into detail about Zinc's role with SERT, DAT, and NET transporters as well as the entire serotonergic system. I had no idea that Zinc played such a tremendous role in brain functioning and depression.
> 
> If I am reading all of this correctly, it seems like Zinc deficiency could lead to improperly functioning oxytocin receptors as well as a sub-optimal serotonergic system.
> 
> Someone asked awhile back if all of the people who are experiencing MehDMA could have a common factor between them. What if that factor is Zinc deficiency?



Well if that’s the case, I both supplement as well as try to eat a diet high in zinc for both hormonal and mood reasons.  Too much makes me aggressive and angry but too little can have equally negative effects, so I’ve found a balance over time with it.

I used to eat oysters sometimes multiple times a week.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> Well if that’s the case, I both supplement as well as try to eat a diet high in zinc for both hormonal and mood reasons.  Too much makes me aggressive and angry but too little can have equally negative effects, so I’ve found a balance over time with it.
> 
> I used to eat oysters sometimes multiple times a week.
> 
> -GC



I have documented high estradiol, which is a sign of zinc deficiency due to how zinc deficiency impacts aromatase. I have not specifically had my zinc levels tested, but I am going to start supplementing with zinc and see what happens. I do not usually supplement zinc, because last time I tried, I had the aggression issue that you mentioned. However, my interest is officially piqued at this point.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> I have documented high estradiol, which is a sign of zinc deficiency due to how zinc deficiency impacts aromatase. I have not specifically had my zinc levels tested, but I am going to start supplementing with zinc and see what happens. I do not usually supplement zinc, because last time I tried, I had the aggression issue that you mentioned. However, my interest is officially piqued at this point.



So I think me and you are similar in our sensitivity to supplements based on what I’ve heard you say before.  When it comes to dietary zinc I can handle a lot more but as little as 5% DV of supplemented zinc I can feel, makes me sleepy often so take before bed.  Don’t take it every day, try 2-3 times a week at first.

I use my body, how well I sleep and the aggression as indicators to whether I need more or less.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> So I think me and you are similar in our sensitivity to supplements based on what I’ve heard you say before.  When it comes to dietary zinc I can handle a lot more but as little as 5% DV of supplemented zinc I can feel, makes me sleepy often so take before bed.  Don’t take it every day, try 2-3 times a week at first.
> 
> I use my body, how well I sleep and the aggression as indicators to whether I need more or less.
> 
> -GC



I have to do the same thing. I will break supplements into pieces or only take a few times a week. It is hard when you are deficient in something though and need to get the levels up. I have low vitamin D, but it will make me angry too. I ordered a plant based zinc, and I hope I will tolerate that better.


----------



## indigoaura

Tried a different batch of product last night and mixed it with weed. Nothing to really report here or take up the thread with. Subpar results, and I think the product must have been a really low purity crystal, maybe more water than anything else. I have had much better meh. I thought the weed may have kicked things over into different territory, but it just made me super distracted and unfocused. I don't really see the benefit of the combo, honestly. I have pics of my pupils well into the experience and they are barely dilated at all. 

I can post a highly cropped, BW image of my pupils if anyone thinks that would be beneficial data and would be safe to post.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

Keep ya eyes posted. There is fire molly and MDA, plus legit pressies available still domestically. It's not a zinc deficiency. Most of us have rolled like 1000 times haha. Give that brain a break and don't take anything that sounds too good to be true (260mg MDMA pill), cause it's too good to be true lol. Plus nobody needs 260mg or even 180mg mdma, the idea is laughable and if it's good shit you'll be puking for a hour, then rolling harder than you ever have before.


----------



## mrsmokeweed

indigoaura said:


> I have to do the same thing. I will break supplements into pieces or only take a few times a week. It is hard when you are deficient in something though and need to get the levels up. I have low vitamin D, but it will make me angry too. I ordered a plant based zinc, and I hope I will tolerate that better.


Take ZMA


----------



## indigoaura

mrsmokeweed said:


> Take ZMA



Already taking ZMA as well as a raw, plant based, zinc.


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

G_Chem said:


> Man and I feel like that way of MDMA culture is dying, if I remember correct your a bit old school yourself right? 90’s raver? I feel the very fact this behavior is fading away along with other loving/giving behaviors which show an overall change in product for the mass of users.  That’s the reason I still hang in this thread, I remember a time when things were very different.  I refuse to put it down cultural changes or whatever.
> 
> You telling me that story reminds me of a time when people would very often share pills, even if they could barely afford it or weren’t making money, just so everyone was having a good time.
> 
> I remember folks giving away all their pills rolling only to wake up the next day with that kinda bummed but still happy they at least made everyone’s night lol.
> 
> Idk maybe it’s all the K people be sniffing these days too.. Don’t get me wrong I like it, but it’s definitely ruined things a bit.  Let’s put it this way, in my area we could probably do with 1/10th or less the total amount of K circulating to keep things at a level that’s not “excessive.”
> 
> I then wonder, is K big now because MDMA has changed? It was right when our local producer shut down of the very magic pills that K began to grow in popularity.  Probably coincidence but worth thinking about..  Thankfully my connections stayed good but I can see a lot less overall love and connection than before when these pills were everywhere .
> 
> -GC


I was never into MDA, MDMA, disassociative drugs, or research chemicals but things have definitely changed. I remember in the 1990s when there was so much highly dosed LSD people were buying it in bulk or even just smaller amounts like 10 windowpanes/geltabs, or 10 hits of blotter acid and giving it away for free or very little money.

Research chemicals and the 'dark web' have changed all of this. Yes people can look up information about drugs a lot easier-I remember before the Internet and before hyperreal, Lycaeum, and erowid having to get books out of public and university libraries about drugs, or buying them in bookstores-anyone can now go on the dark web or even on legit websites and claim that a research chemical that is not LSD at all, is acid and people buy it up, and have it delivered worldwide.


----------



## indigoaura

I wanted to add this little anecdote about my recent "meh" experience on Saturday night. I have been really into this one song, and had been looking forward to listening to it during the height of the experience. When I played the song while "rolling," I actively disliked the song. I mean, really could not stand it and wanted it to end. So bizarre, because I usually love the song and expected it to be amazing. It is that same feeling as what is felt towards other people as well, "I wish this distraction would stop." Everything is a bother. 

I still strive to find the right way to describe the state other than what it lacks. It kind of feels like being half asleep in the sense that there are all of these external forces that are pulling at you, but you just want to drift back into "slumber," and you feel that same keen irritation at being disturbed. Another element similar to a hypnagogic state is the forgetfulness that can occur, like a dream that you can't quite recall. In many ways, this is what is so jarringly different. One of the most notable aspects of the MDMA experience is that it placed you very firmly in the present moment, and you noticed all the things about the present moment that you would typically ignore: the air, your skin, your breath, the smell of the earth, the softness of cotton, the taste of water. MDMA left you so within the present moment that deep truths were revealed within that ever expanding now. Connections were made with strangers because there was no fear of what might happen next or what had happened before. The meh experience is outside of the present moment. All of the sensory distractions of "now," seem like rude distractions.


----------



## Le Junk

Negi said:


> I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on the older people in the thread, but yes something else changed, your body over the course of 10 years (and nearly 20 years since you had the super magic experiences). I imagine the set and settings of your experiences have also changed during those time periods. I do not think it is a coincidence that many in this thread started rolling ~20 years ago, and that they also seem to get the least positive effects from mehDMA (if any) while having the lowest success rates for finding anything they consider magic.
> 
> Anyway, I can't believe I wasted my time hunting Reddit experience reports out of the dross when the true repository has been here all along: https://erowid.org/experiences/exp....A_RA&NewSort=PDD&Start=0&ShowViews=0&Cellar=0
> This is the Erowid experience vault for first time MDMA experiences, sorted to show the most recent. I encourage everyone to pick a dozen from the past two years and give them a read before deciding that most of the MDMA in the world has turned to shit and that kids these days couldn't possibly understand what real magic felt like.
> 
> Edit: I didn't realize how far behind Erowid was on publishing reports, many of those were written years ago but only very recently published. You can work around this using Google, with the string:
> site:Erowid.org "Exp Year: 2019" "MDMA (3)" "First Times"
> Replace 2019 with whatever year you want to see reports from. There aren't that many from recent years but there are certainly some glowing ones.



But that’s where you’re incorrect. I’m the thread starter and if you read my original post, you will see that I still have access to the “magic”. And I’ve been rolling since the mid-80’s. Absolutely nothing has changed with these magic capsules I get. However, everything else out there nowadays (pills, crystals etc) that all lab test as pure MDMA are simply awful. It is not, I repeat, NOT set or setting. You have to quit giving that excuse to this modern day pure MDMA crap. It’s not just old users versus new users versus he said versus she said. There is an actual visual marker giveaway present in today’s crap versus the magic. Pupil dilation. All street ecstasy up until 2009 and the magic capsules I still have access to will completely dilate your pupils. And when I say dilate, I don’t mean slightly or 80%, I mean 99.5% of your eyeball is black pupil. There is no exception to this rule. And there never was until 2010. If the color of your eyes is not totally gone and your pupils aren’t completely black, you’re doing modern day MDMA junk I can assure you. Okay, back to the discussion...


----------



## Negi

The "modern" MDMA that kids these days are getting still gives strongly dilated pupils though: https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/search/?q=MDMA&sort=new&restrict_sr=on

If people here could post photos of the true and holy pupil dilation, it would be helpful. It's important to note that when you are taking a long look at a close up photo (especially one with a flash), you can see much better and with more detail that you could while glancing at someone in a dark rave.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> I wanted to add this little anecdote about my recent "meh" experience on Saturday night. I have been really into this one song, and had been looking forward to listening to it during the height of the experience. When I played the song while "rolling," I actively disliked the song. I mean, really could not stand it and wanted it to end. So bizarre, because I usually love the song and expected it to be amazing. It is that same feeling as what is felt towards other people as well, "I wish this distraction would stop." Everything is a bother.
> 
> I still strive to find the right way to describe the state other than what it lacks. It kind of feels like being half asleep in the sense that there are all of these external forces that are pulling at you, but you just want to drift back into "slumber," and you feel that same keen irritation at being disturbed. Another element similar to a hypnagogic state is the forgetfulness that can occur, like a dream that you can't quite recall. In many ways, this is what is so jarringly different. One of the most notable aspects of the MDMA experience is that it placed you very firmly in the present moment, and you noticed all the things about the present moment that you would typically ignore: the air, your skin, your breath, the smell of the earth, the softness of cotton, the taste of water. MDMA left you so within the present moment that deep truths were revealed within that ever expanding now. Connections were made with strangers because there was no fear of what might happen next or what had happened before. The meh experience is outside of the present moment. All of the sensory distractions of "now," seem like rude distractions.



This ties in perfectly with the reports of “mongy/sedating” MDMA, and why we see lots of U.K. youth with eyes half open as they roll.

Compare those pics to the 90’s where everyone’s eyes are wide open or at least normal, not droopy as hell.

I doubt much has changed in the U.K. between now and then in terms of use (abuse?) patterns.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> The "modern" MDMA that kids these days are getting still gives strongly dilated pupils though: https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/search/?q=MDMA&sort=new&restrict_sr=on



You fail to mention the infinite more pictures that used to crop up on the MDMA sub which weren’t nearly as impressive.  But even then many of those are insane doses to get there.

Good MDMA is out there, I had some last weekend, it’s just on average how many folks get good VS lackluster product.  I’m imagining more get meh than magic, despite it still existing.

-GC


----------



## fasterfb

Le Junk said:


> And when I say dilate, I don’t mean slightly or 80%, I mean 99.5% of your eyeball is black pupil.



Well maybe that's true for you, but I guarantee that it isn't the case for everybody. Not 99.5% of your eyeball lol.



Negi said:


> The "modern" MDMA that kids these days are getting still gives strongly dilated pupils though: https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/search/?q=MDMA&sort=new&restrict_sr=on



Yes, a lot of these dilated pupil photos are pretty representative of how much pupil dilation that I get now with good MDMA, and got back in the 70's, 80's and 90's.


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> You fail to mention the infinite more pictures that used to crop up on the MDMA sub which weren’t nearly as impressive.  But even then many of those are insane doses to get there.


Do those photos match the pupil dilation you expect though? Also I thought increasing the dose of mehDMA had no effect?


----------



## Negi

For some useful thread content, I finally got a reply from the reddit user who had a "meh" sounding experience from the exact batch that had his friends flying.

He had mentioned that he had a number of good and bad experiences from recent MDMA experiences, so I asked:


> How did they line up, did you have the nice ones first and then the crappy ones or were the nice ones mixed in? Did your friends have a good reaction to the MDMA each time?


He replied:


> Ops, i forgot to answer. Its like i have 2 good ones, bad, good, bad, bad, good, bad, good, good. So i want to say there is no scheme to it.



So it doesn't match up with the idea of just directly losing the magic, but also doesn't appear to be a universal problem (since his friends had a blast). Anyone remember when two people in this thread took a pill from the same bag and had meh vs magic experiences? The thread glossed over it pretty quickly but there seems to be a pattern here.


----------



## indigoaura

@Le Junk Thank you for posting again. Sometimes I just start to feel like I'm nuts, but it is good to hear from the people who have access to both and could have either experience depending on the product they use.

@Negi "Anyone remember when two people in this thread took a pill from the same bag and had meh vs magic experiences? The thread glossed over it pretty quickly but there seems to be a pattern here." Those were also two pills, and pills are sometimes not packed the same way or with the same dose, as evidenced by documented mg dosages in identical pills on Drugs Data. 

I would like to know from that reddit poster what he means when he says his friends had a blast. Were they just fucked up? Did they talk about the experience at all? What was it like for them? Also, have there been times when they all had a bad roll, or is he the only one who has a bad roll when they have a good roll?

Some of those pupils look right to me on reddit, and some don't. My pupils on Saturday did not match those pics, after doses of 140 mg, 114 mg, and 90 mg. And, I have old pics of my pupils, so I know what they used to look like. 

Based on what the guy on reddit is telling you, it would have to be something about an individual's physiology that varies from experience to experience. Or perhaps, an individual's sensitivity to an additive/impurity that not everyone has. Do you have any ideas or theories about what that could be? I have tried NAC, BPC-157, all kinds of vitamins, 5HTP, etc. etc. Never noticed any discernible difference. 

This is a silly example, but some people eat asparagus and their urine odor changes. Other people eat asparagus and have no change to their urine odor. It is due to a genetic variation. As has been suggested here before, maybe some people are more sensitive to certain impurities than other people. 

I would personally be more convinced that I am my problem if I had ever seen anyone just "balls to the wall" rolling on any of these meh batches, but I never have. Everyone I have seen has been equally as underwhelmed as me, and sometimes more underwhelmed. And, I just 100% don't buy set and setting as the explanation, because there have been times I have been thrilled, excited, and loving life and had the most meh experience ever (like Saturday), and other times in the past I have been miserable and feeling so shitty I thought I would not roll at all but experienced pure magic. 

I was thinking about it yesterday though, and I do recall some "meh" pills from back in the day that looked okay on reagent tests. The difference back then was that I always had a few different kinds of pills laying around, so if one did not "do it" for me, I just popped a more familiar type of pill and took off from there.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> Those were also two pills, and pills are sometimes not packed the same way or with the same dose, as evidenced by documented mg dosages in identical pills on Drugs Data.
> ....
> I was thinking about it yesterday though, and I do recall some "meh" pills from back in the day that looked okay on reagent tests. The difference back then was that I always had a few different kinds of pills laying around, so if one did not "do it" for me, I just popped a more familiar type of pill and took off from there.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> This is a silly example, but some people eat asparagus and their urine odor changes. Other people eat asparagus and have no change to their urine odor. It is due to a genetic variation. As has been suggested here before, maybe some people are more sensitive to certain impurities than other people.



Theoretically it would be possible that genetic variations could lead to differing rates of adaptation to the MDMA experience, all the way from never losing magic to losing magic quickly. Or, a genetic variation that affects speed of adaptation and then speed of returning to a pre-adapted state. Or something like that. I have no explicit knowledge of chemical mechanisms that could facilitate something like this, but I can't imagine it's so far fetched an idea so as to not be possible.


----------



## indigoaura

I don't mean to beat a dead horse, @Negi, but the question is whether dosage does or does not improve the experience.

Typical "magic" MDMA improves/strengthens with an increased dose. If you have a low dosed pill, you take a second pill and you get where you need to be .
Subpar "meh" MDMA does not improve with an increased dose. If you take more, the tone of the experience does not change, although you might get more intense "meh" effects.

The individual who posted on this page about differing effects from pills only ate half or one pill as I recall. I would have to search for his post to confirm the details. He never increased the dose by taking a 2nd pill. He and his friend took the same pill and each had a different effect. So, in that situation, the question of whether it was or was not a variable dosage issue was not ever really answered. Also, it is worth pointing out that different individuals are going to have different ideal dosages to begin with, so it is possible that he never reached his ideal dose. However, we don't know, because he did not experiment with increasing the dosage. I will try to search for his post after this to confirm.

In one of the situations I specifically recall from my past, I had two pills with me at a concert. I took one and had a subpar reaction. I took the second one and the reaction did not improve or change. So, increasing dose did not improve the roll. Then, I got home, and I took a 3rd pill from a different batch and I started rolling. Was it dosage or was it product? I suppose the answer is somewhat unclear, but I did increase the dose with the original pills without improving the experience.

With the powder and crystals I have personally had access to more recently, increasing the dosage does not produce the desired effect. This is not to say that the "meh" effects of the product do not increase with an increased dose. For example, the forgetfulness may increase as the dose increases, but the tone of the experience does not shift from antisocial to social, or from negative to positive.

I should not have to take more than around 120 mg of MDMA to achieve the effects of MDMA. I have experimented with doses from 100 to 155 mg to start and have not achieved typical MDMA effects. I do not feel like it is particularly safe to increase the initial dose above that amount, because if 155 mg is not producing the effects of MDMA, then what am I actually taking? What residual contaminants am I also increasing by increasing that initial dose? We also know from looking at old data regarding pills that they did not usually contain more than 150 mg of MDMA, so it is not an issue of not achieving the same dosage as I achieved previously. Even half a pill used to start a light roll with the right vibe and increasing the dose just strengthened the experience.


----------



## indigoaura

Kvitamine said:


> I already apogalize for my bad english, but here is some background story. I have tried MDMA 5 times in 2 years before this roll with doses 100mg-200mg so I havent abused it. I've had 1 great and 1ok and 3 meh experiences before this and never had confirmed "Magic mdma"  but I am very interested about this thread and want to tell my experience with those red-yellow pirelli's. I consumed those pills with ryybsnarcs and few other friends. I took little bit over half pill for initial dose and rest after 1.5hour mark. Comeup was really, really smooth, everything was so calm, peaceful and I felt so clean for all the time, euphoria, music appreciation, music felt and sound so wonderful, sharp and alive. Tactile enchantment and empathy, i never felt so much empathy from previous rolls, it was so real, so natural empathy and love. It felt like I was in  some kind of love story for a whole roll. When I held hands with my friend, it felt like we had some kind of spiritual bond. everything felt incredible.(vicks inhalers smell so wonderfull) I literally was rolling my eyes back of my skull for whole peak :D  I would say that it was magical experience and i want to quote shulgin "i am complete" .  But why would I have so great experience from same pills that ryybsnarcs had? I really cant even imagine how roll would be any better than this was. 2 days after roll i felt drained, and tired. But after those 2 days, I had nice afterglow for almost a week. I know you guys are much more experienced than me, so was my experience really "magic"?  because i really think so



So, here is the post in question. @Kvitamine and @RyybsNarcs were the contributors. 

They each had ONE pill.

They each began by taking half or 3/4 of that one pill. They re-dosed with the remainder of the pill.

If their pills had different dosages per pill (as has been documented as possible due to mg contents noted on Drugs Data), then it is possible that @RyybsNarcs had a lower dose than @Kvitamine.

If @RyybsNarcs needs a higher dose to reach the desired effects than @Kvitamine, then that would also explain what happened.

If they had each taken a second pill and R had continued to have a meh time, but K had blown up into an even better time, then it would be more clear that the issue was a personal physiology issue rather than a product issue. 

However, without that additional data, I don't feel that we have enough information to draw a conclusion about what happened here and whether it was a dosage issue or a personal physiology issue. 

As has been stated here before, using pills for data is tricky because we do not really know what dosage each pill contains, so it is hard to make precise comparisons.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> @Le Junk Thank you for posting again. Sometimes I just start to feel like I'm nuts, but it is good to hear from the people who have access to both and could have either experience depending on the product they use.
> 
> @Negi "Anyone remember when two people in this thread took a pill from the same bag and had meh vs magic experiences? The thread glossed over it pretty quickly but there seems to be a pattern here." Those were also two pills, and pills are sometimes not packed the same way or with the same dose, as evidenced by documented mg dosages in identical pills on Drugs Data.
> 
> I would like to know from that reddit poster what he means when he says his friends had a blast. Were they just fucked up? Did they talk about the experience at all? What was it like for them? Also, have there been times when they all had a bad roll, or is he the only one who has a bad roll when they have a good roll?
> 
> Some of those pupils look right to me on reddit, and some don't. My pupils on Saturday did not match those pics, after doses of 140 mg, 114 mg, and 90 mg. And, I have old pics of my pupils, so I know what they used to look like.
> 
> Based on what the guy on reddit is telling you, it would have to be something about an individual's physiology that varies from experience to experience. Or perhaps, an individual's sensitivity to an additive/impurity that not everyone has. Do you have any ideas or theories about what that could be? I have tried NAC, BPC-157, all kinds of vitamins, 5HTP, etc. etc. Never noticed any discernible difference.
> 
> This is a silly example, but some people eat asparagus and their urine odor changes. Other people eat asparagus and have no change to their urine odor. It is due to a genetic variation. As has been suggested here before, maybe some people are more sensitive to certain impurities than other people.
> 
> I would personally be more convinced that I am my problem if I had ever seen anyone just "balls to the wall" rolling on any of these meh batches, but I never have. Everyone I have seen has been equally as underwhelmed as me, and sometimes more underwhelmed. And, I just 100% don't buy set and setting as the explanation, because there have been times I have been thrilled, excited, and loving life and had the most meh experience ever (like Saturday), and other times in the past I have been miserable and feeling so shitty I thought I would not roll at all but experienced pure magic.
> 
> I was thinking about it yesterday though, and I do recall some "meh" pills from back in the day that looked okay on reagent tests. The difference back then was that I always had a few different kinds of pills laying around, so if one did not "do it" for me, I just popped a more familiar type of pill and took off from there.



That last paragraph I think applies to me and why I still haven’t ever gotten really familiar with a “meh” batch.  Anytime I come across stuff like that, I’ve got 7-10 other batches to choose from.



Negi said:


> Do those photos match the pupil dilation you expect though? Also I thought increasing the dose of mehDMA had no effect?



Those pupils are fairly in line with what I expect, just dosages seem a bit high in comparison but I can understand not everyone is eating high 90’s% purity product.


While I see your point I’d argue as well that subreddit might be taking a very narrow snapshot of the true reality of the scene.  That sub is for folks who get a really good pupil pic and wanna show it off, but doesn’t show all the folks who took a pic and didn’t feel it was worth sharing.

Also looking at the time stamps it’s not nearly as often someone posts there compared to back when facial pics were allowed in the main MDMA reddit, there was like 3-5 a day at times.

-GC


----------



## Biscuit

Le Junk said:


> But that’s where you’re incorrect. I’m the thread starter and if you read my original post, you will see that I still have access to the “magic”. And I’ve been rolling since the mid-80’s. Absolutely nothing has changed with these magic capsules I get. However, everything else out there nowadays (pills, crystals etc) that all lab test as pure MDMA are simply awful. It is not, I repeat, NOT set or setting. You have to quit giving that excuse to this modern day pure MDMA crap. It’s not just old users versus new users versus he said versus she said. There is an actual visual marker giveaway present in today’s crap versus the magic. Pupil dilation. All street ecstasy up until 2009 and the magic capsules I still have access to will completely dilate your pupils. And when I say dilate, I don’t mean slightly or 80%, I mean 99.5% of your eyeball is black pupil. There is no exception to this rule. And there never was until 2010. If the color of your eyes is not totally gone and your pupils aren’t completely black, you’re doing modern day MDMA junk I can assure you. Okay, back to the discussion...


 I agree with every word of that and welcome back while I’m at it.

What cannot continued be glossed over is the massive increase in the dosage found in pills between the pre 2009/2010 era and the post 2010/2011 era. In the old days any tablet with not much more than 100mg was a wonderful ectstasy experience. No one needed anything like the 350mg “pills” widely circulating these days. You just can’t argue with that.


----------



## G_Chem

Biscuit said:


> I agree with every word of that and welcome back while I’m at it.
> 
> What cannot continued be glossed over is the massive increase in the dosage found in pills between the pre 2009/2010 era and the post 2010/2011 era. In the old days any tablet with not much more than 100mg was a wonderful ectstasy experience. No one needed anything like the 350mg “pills” widely circulating these days. You just can’t argue with that.



This is a big reason I still hang around in here.  I simply can’t believe some 13yr old U.K. kid can eat 300-1000mg in a night no problem, and someone like myself who’s been rolling longer than said kid has been alive who still only needs 120+40.

In regards to the pupil dilation subreddit, look at those doses they’re taking.  The eyes that looked the most “right” had a whopping 1g dose next to the title.

Psy brings up some good points though, and I’ve too wondered on the genetic potential for loss of magic.

I guess I could be a case study, most of my family has tried MDMA and obviously we all share genetics to some extent.  The only person who’s “lost the magic” in my family is one of my brothers but even then he still gets good effects it’s just not the “every stranger is my best friend” kind of thing.

I don’t believe based on what I’ve seen that loss of magic is the same thing we are seeing here.  I’ve already discussed what I feelare the differences.  Essentially loss of magic just turns MDMA more into a stimulant type drug, like taking Amphetamine but a bit better.  Many reports from before 2010 say the same thing.

-GC


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I wanted to add this little anecdote about my recent "meh" experience on Saturday night.


Did you track your fasting blood glucose levels this time ?


----------



## indigoaura

> Essentially loss of magic just turns MDMA more into a stimulant type drug, like taking Amphetamine but a bit better.



That was always what I read as well. I read that you lost many of the lovey dovey effects, but maintained the dopamine driven effects. I also never heard that eye dilation stopped, just that although your physical effects remained the same, the euphoria diminished. Meh does not feel like a stimulant though.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Did you track your fasting blood glucose levels this time ?



No, I did not, because I knew I planned to mix in weed and that seemed like an improper measurement.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> That was always what I read as well. I read that you lost many of the lovey dovey effects, but maintained the dopamine driven effects. I also never heard that eye dilation stopped,


Pupil dilation is mediated by the norepinephrine system. There is a large genetic variability ( 8-11% ) in its response.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Pupil dilation is mediated by the norepinephrine system. There is a large genetic variability ( 8-11% ) in its response.



I do not doubt that, but for someone who once had hugely dilated pupils and now does not, it does not seem like it would be a genetic factor. Genes like that would not change, right?


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Genes like that would not change, right?


Correct


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> Pupil dilation is mediated by the norepinephrine system. There is a large genetic variability ( 8-11% ) in its response.



This explains why most every stimulant has this effect.  That said, serotonin has no effect? It seems like most psychedelics and empathogens that effect serotonin also dilate pupils.  I imagine not all of them effect NE.

-GC


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> That said, serotonin has no effect?


Yes, it has too, albeit not as strongly as adrenergic agonists . That is why SSRI antidepressants can cause slight Mydriasis.
All adrenergic agonists mimic the activity of the norepinephrine. Mydriasis can be induced by cholinergic agents, too.

In general, Mydriasis can be caused by two mechanisms:
1) suppression of the parasympathetic ocular nerve ( paralyses the iris sphincter muscle )
2) excitation of the sympathetic ocular nerve ( activates the iris dilator muscle )

This duality can be resolved by administration of certain eye drops which specifically disable one mechanism or the other.
I heard that ophthalmological USG can distinguish them too, but I have never seen it done.


----------



## Negi

Biscuit said:


> No one needed anything like the 350mg “pills” widely circulating these days. You just can’t argue with that.





G_Chem said:


> I simply can’t believe some 13yr old U.K. kid can eat 300-1000mg in a night no problem


So now magic MDMA didn't build any tolerance? There was never anybody at the raves back in the day who kept munching on pills all night?



indigoaura said:


> Subpar "meh" MDMA does not improve with an increased dose. If you take more, the tone of the experience does not change, although you might get more intense "meh" effects.





G_Chem said:


> In regards to the pupil dilation subreddit, look at those doses they’re taking. The eyes that looked the most “right” had a whopping 1g dose next to the title.


Does increasing the dose of mehDMA have effects or not?



Biscuit said:


> What cannot continued be glossed over is the massive increase in the dosage found in pills between the pre 2009/2010 era and the post 2010/2011 era. In the old days any tablet with not much more than 100mg was a wonderful ectstasy experience. No one needed anything like the 350mg “pills” widely circulating these days. You just can’t argue with that.


If you look at reddit experience reports, 100mg is still a wonderful ecstasy experience. If you buy capsules they are still almost always sold as "one point" (100mg). If higher doses are required with current MDMA, why hasn't the dosage of capsules increased as well?


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi 

I appreciate your posts and the way that you challenge the conversation, push it forward, and bring new perspectives. Sometimes, however, it feels like you are looking for a "gotcha" moment.

No one has ever denied the existence of tolerance. However, it seems odd that the "norm" for pill dosages has increased so much. I know this has been discussed at length already, and there is little need to go over it again. I get that it is cheap to make pills, etc. However, I see a lot of people talking about using a gram of molly in a night, and I hardly knew anyone who would consume that much MDMA amongst my old circle of ravers. Of course, there have always been those who experiment with heroic doses, but it seems very widespread now, even with newbies. 

As for the meh effects, I don't know how else to explain it other than how I already explained it. I said, "Subpar "meh" MDMA does not improve with an increased dose. If you take more, the tone of the experience does not change, although you might get more intense "meh" effects."

I will try to explain again.

Tone/flavor is different than strength/intensity.

If I have a cup of water, and I put one drop of red food coloring into the glass of water, the color of the water will become more red. If I add more red food coloring, the water will get even more red. There will never be a moment where I add red food coloring to the water and the water suddenly becomes blue. It will always become more and more red. 

If subpar/meh product is red food coloring, and water is the body, and MDMA is blue food coloring, then the same would be true.

Does increasing the meh have an effect? Yes, it increases the strength and intensity of the experience that you are having. It does NOT change the tone/flavor/color of the experience. It does not suddenly become a typical MDMA experience. 

At least, that is my observation. Many other people in the forum have observed the same thing, and experimented with dosages in an attempt to see if it is a dosage issue.

As for those 100 mg capsules, have you seen the prices of those? Most of those vendors on the DW sell them for next to nothing. Not much more than 100 mg will fit in a small capsule. I don't know that the expectation is that a single capsule is used.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> However, I see a lot of people talking about using a gram of molly in a night, and I hardly knew anyone who would consume that much MDMA amongst my old circle of ravers.


What was the price, availability and usage culture surrounding MDMA during that time? I've gone over this in the thread before. A key quote:


Negi said:


> The price of alcohol hasn't dropped to nearly a 1/4 of what it once was at the same time that the bottles doubled in size (pill dosages going to over 200mg) and 1L jugs of pure alcohol became available (the ability to buy grams of powder MDMA).


I would recommend clicking through it and reading the discussion on the page.



indigoaura said:


> Does increasing the meh have an effect? Yes, it increases the strength and intensity of the experience that you are having. It does NOT change the tone/flavor/color of the experience. It does not suddenly become a typical MDMA experience.


The other quote I linked there seemed to indicate that higher doses would give pupil dilation, which everyone in the thread has indicated is a key magic MDMA element that is always missing from mehDMA.



indigoaura said:


> As for those 100 mg capsules, have you seen the prices of those? Most of those vendors on the DW sell them for next to nothing. Not much more than 100 mg will fit in a small capsule. I don't know that the expectation is that a single capsule is used.


That just matches the general decline in the price of MDMA at all quantity levels. And you can absolutely buy empty capsules of different sizes.


----------



## indigoaura

> I would recommend clicking through it and reading the discussion on the page.



I have read every single page of this discussion from page 1-287.

Price does not change effect. If I had taken 1000 mg of MDMA in 2002 I would not have been able to walk. I may have blacked out. No amount of low prices would have changed that, or changed the fact that I got where I needed to be off 1-2 pills. 

Sure, there are always kids who do foolish things. But, most responsible alcohol users measure their shots when they make their drinks. It isn't because of money, it is because nobody really enjoys getting blackout drunk. Achieving the correct state of "fucked up" makes the night more enjoyable. After you cross a certain line, what is the point?

The people posting pics of having taken 1000 mg of MDMA do not look 1000 mg of MDMA fucked up. 

You are making the assumption that usage goes up because the price has dropped, but if that is true, then the effects would also go up along with usage. People should be MORE fucked up than they were before the usage escalated, not LESS fucked up than they were before the usage escalated. 

As for the pupil dilation...

I am never going to take 1000 mg of "meh" product in an evening to see if my pupils dilate. Just not gonna happen. It does not feel safe. So, if pupils eventually dilate at heroic doses, I would not personally know. I can tell you that they don't dilate at around 350-400 mg of total consumption, but beyond that, I don't know. I can also tell you that they used to dilate for me after consuming 1/2 to 1 pill. 

I think @G_Chem's point in pointing out the dosages is that we don't know if those people would have had pupil dilation at more reasonable/typical doses. 

This research article establishes that a 125 mg dose of MDMA should cause mydriasis. - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22700038/
This article also states that 125 mg of MDMA causes mydriasis. - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-019-0569-3

Based on what these research articles are stating, mydriasis should be seen with 125 mg. It should not require 500 or 1000 mg of MDMA to produce mydriasis. Since some of the reddit users are often referencing heroic doses, it is impossible to know whether they experienced mydriasis at a 125 mg dose.


----------



## indigoaura

Interesting article:








						α₁-Adrenergic receptors contribute to the acute effects of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine in humans - PubMed
					

Preclinical studies implicate a role for α₁-noradrenergic receptors in the effects of psychostimulants, including 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, "ecstasy"). The present study evaluated the effects of the α₁-noradrenergic receptor antagonist doxazosin on the acute pharmacodynamic and...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## indigoaura

> Pretreatment with inhibitors of the dopamine or norepinephrine reuptake transporter (DAT or NET), 5-HT(2A) or α-β adrenergic receptor antagonists or antipsychotics prior to MDMA exposure can also decrease one or more MDMA-induced physiological and/or subjective effects.



Here is another interesting article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23030234/


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> If I had taken 1000 mg of MDMA in 2002 I would not have been able to walk. I may have blacked out. No amount of low prices would have changed that, or changed the fact that I got where I needed to be off 1-2 pills.





indigoaura said:


> You are making the assumption that usage goes up because the price has dropped, but if that is true, then the effects would also go up along with usage. People should be MORE fucked up than they were before the usage escalated, not LESS fucked up than they were before the usage escalated.


We just went over how tolerance exists. And some of the effects certainly do increase. You can find lots of posts from the heavy users talking about how their mouths have been cut or damaged by heavy jaw clenching and teeth grinding.



indigoaura said:


> Sure, there are always kids who do foolish things. But, most responsible alcohol users measure their shots when they make their drinks. It isn't because of money, it is because nobody really enjoys getting blackout drunk. Achieving the correct state of "fucked up" makes the night more enjoyable. After you cross a certain line, what is the point?


I bet the venn diagram of people people who take a gram of MDMA in a single night and people who like to drink until they are sloppy drunk/blacked out is a single circle. Again did you miss the part where I pointed out the horrific UK drinking culture that many of the high dose users are also taking part in?

Edit: I'll repost part of an old comment of mine. If the problem is that much more MDMA is needed to feel the effects dosages should be up universally (or at least in Europe where nearly all MDMA comes from the same source). They aren't. It's pretty clear that there's a deep cultural problem in the UK (and Ireland).

Here's some data from the 2019 Global Drugs Survey:




In many countries, most people don't take more than 200mg of MDMA in a total session (I'm only looking at powder since it's impossible to know the dosages of the pills). And if I remember the survey questions correctly, they only offered 100mg increments for the question. So the that 200mg number includes everyone in that 120mg - 150mg range (as it's more than 100mg).


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> So now magic MDMA didn't build any tolerance? There was never anybody at the raves back in the day who kept munching on pills all night?
> 
> 
> 
> Does increasing the dose of mehDMA have effects or not?
> 
> 
> If you look at reddit experience reports, 100mg is still a wonderful ecstasy experience. If you buy capsules they are still almost always sold as "one point" (100mg). If higher doses are required with current MDMA, why hasn't the dosage of capsules increased as well?



Of course magic MDMA builds tolerance, only if you use it incorrectly.  It seems based on the research some form of neurotoxicity and tolerance go hand in hand.  I’m someone who’s never built tolerance because I only use 6-8 times a year max with some of those years only being 1-2.  Probably averaged 4-6 over the years.


As to your 2nd point, idk I’m not the one to ask on meh product.  My rolls are (almost) all still magic.  I’ve had only a few meh batches over the years but they exist.


Ok... And then people eat 5 of em.  Yes folks back in the day on occasion ate excessive amounts but it wasn’t necessary as it seems these days.  Also excessive amounts was still much lower than the supposedly reported amounts these days.  250-300mg being like the absolute max.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> We just went over how tolerance exists. And some of the effects certainly do increase. You can find lots of posts from the heavy users talking about how their mouths have been cut or damaged by heavy jaw clenching and teeth grinding.
> 
> 
> I bet the venn diagram of people people who take a gram of MDMA in a single night and people who like to drink until they are sloppy drunk/blacked out is a single circle. Again did you miss the part where I pointed out the horrific UK drinking culture that many of the high dose users are also taking part in?
> 
> Edit: I'll repost part of an old comment of mine. If the problem is that much more MDMA is needed to feel the effects dosages should be up universally (or at least in Europe where nearly all MDMA comes from the same source). They aren't. It's pretty clear that there's a deep cultural problem in the UK (and Ireland).
> 
> Here's some data from the 2019 Global Drugs Survey:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In many countries, most people don't take more than 200mg of MDMA in a total session (I'm only looking at powder since it's impossible to know the dosages of the pills). And if I remember the survey questions correctly, they only offered 100mg increments for the question. So the that 200mg number includes everyone in that 120mg - 150mg range (as it's more than 100mg).



Lol dude your too much.  You love to slice data to fit your needs.  What does that bright orange Global say? .3g.  I’m assuming that’s a global average.

Much higher than what people used to take.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> Lol dude your too much.  You love to slice data to fit your needs.  What does that bright orange Global say? .3g.  I’m assuming that’s a global average.
> 
> Much higher than what people used to take.
> 
> -GC


Why are Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany taking 200mg a night? Outside of the cultural problems (UK and Ireland) the countries taking at least 300mg are largely poorer countries or much more distant from producer countries (or both), making the MDMA sold in them much more likely to be cut requiring higher doses.
Also remember this is amount per day, so it includes the initial dose and any redose.


----------



## indigoaura

> ...making the MDMA sold in them much more likely to be cut requiring higher doses.



So, you agree that outside of cultural factors, the reason to need higher doses of MDMA would include low purity products?

There is a whole lot of debate going on here for not a lot of reason.

@Negi, the reddit link you posted shows the kind of eye dilation that I would expect from MDMA use overall. There are plenty of people posting reasonable doses with significant mydriasis. Even if we ignore the people taking heroic doses and just eliminate them from the dataset and assume there are cultural factors at play that cause them to consume these doses, we still have several excellent examples of MDMA induced mydriasis.

170 mg - 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/comments/hla16y
230 mg - 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/comments/hp74tf
200 mg - 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/DilatedPupils/comments/ek1mg0

I'm not sure what this proves though, other than supporting the fact that lower doses of MDMA should produce mydriasis.

We already know that plenty of people have access to typical, magical, wonderful MDMA as evidenced by regular posters in this thread like @G_Chem and @Le_Junk.

Based on what you have posted with the images and what I have posted from published research, it is reasonable to assume that 125-250 mg of MDMA should produce mydriasis in most users (with the exception of the 8-11% mentioned by @user666).

We still have this issue of lab tested MDMA NOT producing mydriasis in users who previously experienced mydriasis. So, they are not part of the 8-11% of people who have genetic factors at play according to what @user666 commented.

Which brings us back around to the primary question of this thread. What is wrong with (some of) the MDMA available today? Or, to phrase it in a more open manner, "Why do some users experience minimal mydriasis and muted effects of MDMA when consuming lab tested, active doses of 125 mg or more?"


----------



## Jmoda

People who do 1000mg of MDMA are not doing this at once....while still a huge dose for one night, they are doing this over many many many hours where Im sure theyre just chasing the high and mostly getting the speedy effects. Yes, it is hard for me fathom taking a g in a night, but I dont think its an impossibility. 


Even back in the oldschool days, im sure there were people munchin 8-10 pills a night at an all night rave. I feel like there have even been anectdotal reporta in this very thread of that.


----------



## Biscuit

Is there any point in the same people who continually wish to disagree with the premise of this thread by stating over and over, “There is no difference, retire, move on“, continuing to post in it?

I have been taking MDXX substances for 21 years. I’ve had over a thousand pills and capsules of the stuff, in countless of settings, across multiple countries and via every possible route of administration available.

I have been in, taken and otherwise bore witness to, a never ending array of photographs and video footage of people consuming MDXX substances at events from the late 90s right up until today. The appearance of people, including myself, under the influence of what is self evidently a magical MDMA experience, is undeniable. It is not only the massive pupil dilation, but the uncontrollable lower jaw movement and this unique, goofy looking grin that comes without any awareness by the person and is impossible to hide. Then there are the people getting massages on the dancefloor or off it, literally writhing in ecstasy, and not to mention those moments where going to the toilet is an almost religious experience with those in the bathroom joined in solidarity in the almost unachievable experience of actually managing to do so. It was also relevant that it is the majority of people at the old rave parties who exhibited these signs, not just a couple. To this day, I continue to attend music festivals and all night dance events in a semi official capacity and I do not observe the youngsters out there on the dancefloor, who are apparently also on MDMA, even approaching the physical condition that the blissfully busted up punters used to occupy at these events I speak of 10 to 20 years ago.

On the rare occasion you do see a person (or a group of persons and they are always in the same group because they have undoubtedly consumed the same MDMA) in this condition, they stand out like dogs balls; in fact their appearance amongst the rest of the crowd is so comparatively unusual and almost “alien-like” in these more modern times, that you genuinely worry that these most fantastic looking specimens will ultimately be chucked out.

The attached picture is a pretty good illustration. The male in the middle has that unique pasted on grin and the female to his right has drifted into blissful muntedness. Either way both have massive pupils, that is a given, where even only a 100mg dose of the magic MDMA could achieve such a state.
https://images.app.goo.gl/Sq46vixxk6rbanT7A

In addition to this personal experience, I also have a degree in chemistry, a degree in law, and have worked with law enforcement. I know how the substances are manufactured, how they are trafficked and I am familiar with local and worldwide trends over 20 years. I have seen quantitative laboratory analysis results conducted on hundreds and hundreds of seized MDMA pills and powders by fully equipped and highly advanced government forensic laboratories since 2002. I could go on but I think it is fair to assume that I feel well equipped to form a valued judgment on this situation.

So, in my POV, the majority of the MDMA I have sampled in Australia and otherwise bore witness to over the past 8 years, is nothing like what I have previously sampled and previously bore witness to. That is despite the current MDMA pills containing insane doses that would have dropped most of the punters on the floor if consumed as it was 10 to 20 years ago. However, despite this very disappointing period of MDMA consumption, there have been certain samples of MDMA that this busted up old relic has taken over the last few years (including only a month ago), that have been astonishingly good, magic even, at only 120mg doses. My friends with similar MDMA usage histories universally agreed. It was like taking a different drug, the blue coloured one and not the red if you will (great analogy indigo!)

So in summary, my mind is absolutely made up. There is a difference and there must be an objectively, identifiable scientific reason for this difference. No one is going to change my mind on this issue simply by disagreeing with me, or making the same selective comments against this premise every couple of pages or so. I am sure the regular contributors to this thread and who are in this camp would agree.

However, that does not mean for a moment that those who don’t subscribe to this view are not welcome to express them, quite the contrary. But what the people who subscribe to this notion are after in this thread is a critical and sensible evaluation of any potential theories which might explain the differences which we already firmly believe exist.

If a theory is put forward for this difference, for example that modern MDMA is no longer a 50:50 mix of the two possible enantiomers, then positively contribute to this thread by demonstrating scientifically that such an explanation, having regard to modern manufacturing methods, is not possible or that analytical results of appropriate samples have proved it is not the case. Please don’t argue against this potential theory by banging on about set and setting, how old I am, or the size of an 18 year old’s pupils on Reddit. That achieves nothing in the context of a thread that has now reached 288 pages. But if someone can disprove any of the theories put forward by those in support of the premise by actually disproving that specific theory, then that is a fantastic contribution because then this particular explanation can be reliably crossed off the list.

Despite what I have said, I am also not for a moment dissuading new posters to the thread from expressing their opinions on the issue and there have been some most sensible and insightful contributions from Greenlighters in recent days about this. But so much of what has been said by the regulars on both sides lately has not advanced the position and is wasting time, largely because those of us who agree with Le Junk are continually having to defend the underlying premise of the thread like broken records. (Poor indigo has had to defend her position over and over until she is blue in the face, pardon the pun).

Until it is scientifically proven that we are wrong (which will likely require a sample accepted to be magic and a sample accepted to be meh being shown to be chemically identical in the material sense), none of us are going to believe there is something right as opposed to wrong about the majority of MDMA available today.

It doesn’t matter to my belief what anyone says against this unless it is useful to an evaluation of the validity or otherwise of a specific scientific explanation for this situation. I’ll shut up about it when every conceivable potential scientific theory is disproved or discounted, or otherwise if it is proved that certain samples are not chemically different as stated.

But until then I suspect many of us (both for and against the argument) do want to continue to investigate, evaluate and try to find an answer to this issue, an answer which will only be proved one way or the other by scientific means and not endless discussion about everyone’s personal views about the matter (some of which have had to be expressed over and over again and which, until science proves otherwise, are never going to change.)

Contrary to what some people may assume, I suspect those of us in this thread who agree there is something wrong, are not seeking to persuade people of this fact. Rather, we seek to find an answer that we firmly believe can and will be found, and if this comes to pass then it will be all the persuasion that anyone should require.

And perhaps more importantly and to the benefit of everyone, this would likely go a long way to making the majority of MDMA available today “right” again!


----------



## indigoaura

Thank you, @Biscuit!!!

Watch out, because when you point out things like this, "Is there any point in the same people who continually wish to disagree with the premise of this thread by stating over and over, “There is no difference, retire, move on“, continuing to post in it?" someone is likely to come along and tell you to fuck off.  

You said everything in your post. 100%. 

Your pic looks the same as those I have from parties back in the day. That tense-jawed, maniacal grin is unmistakable. 



> There is a difference and there must be an objectively, identifiable scientific reason for this difference.



I might have to make this my signature.  I don't need anyone to agree with me on this, all I want is a scientifically plausible answer to what is happening.


----------



## psy997

Seeing videos like the one Biscuit posted, either there's something terribly wrong with club-goers these days, or there's not a widely available drug that promotes dancing that's still around.

Related but not necessarily the same, I take personal offense to the lack of dancing that I see at shows.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Why are Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany taking 200mg a night? Outside of the cultural problems (UK and Ireland) the countries taking at least 300mg are largely poorer countries or much more distant from producer countries (or both), making the MDMA sold in them much more likely to be cut requiring higher doses.
> Also remember this is amount per day, so it includes the initial dose and any redose.



Because they have the purest MDMA available..  Those three places are all known for having good illicit production.

And yea, I’ve never taken more than 200mg in a night...


Also definitely agree with some of those statements Biscuit.  Most noteworthy is the overall change in the scene.

As you said, those that are actually rolling these days stand out like a sore thumb.  Gone are the days of giving random massages, cuddle puddles, group hugs with half the audience, gifting, etc.  Some areas are trying to hold onto the vibe but it’s hard apparently with the kinda product floating around in most circles.

It’s been a long time since someone has annoyed me with their kindness, ya know?


Also I feel some progress has been made...  We now know n-formyl-MDMA was most certainly in MDMA during the 90’s and early/mid 00’s.  We know it was/is psychoactive.  And we are more confident than before that isomers isn’t the issue (to any great extent.)

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Most people are on ketamine in clubs now instead of mdma. I still see people just like biscuits picture here in clubs in new zealand. Just because your mdma sources are trash doesn't mean everybody is getting trash product. 

All MDMA is imported here from holland with some expections to some small labs. My pupils always dilate to full black with eyes wide open and my jaw gets ripped to shit from chewing on it like a mad man. I have also seen also mdma cut with alot of cathiones in poor hood areas.

I also believe "high dosed pills" is now a lie and a marketing term infact most testing sites at festivals are just putting estimates on the mdma in them from what the person said instead of actually getting the true amount giving people a wrong impression. I think these Jurassic i had where more like 150 mg of mdma total content still magic instead of the 300 they selling for from DN holland suppliers. Just like how LSD is always overstated especially from holland to make money. 200-250 mg of pure mdma should honestly have a person concerned they might die during the rush of it. Every time i had proper 250 mg pills it would be extremly hard to not puke as it hit at 30-45 minutes the walls would wobble i would have to lie down and put on a cold shower and take deep breathes to stabilize myself many times i have puked a bit from it. at this dose MDMA is visual. 

A quarter pill snorted of 240 mg had me on a nice roll. Sometimes it addictive to redose even though its very diminishing returns past 300 mg i really get bad at dosing through a 12 hour night til sunrise for no good reason as the comedowns are horrendous but the culture of mdma abuse in australia, new zealand and the UK is bad. 

What is up is that it seems to be more americans than anybody else getting bad product in a country of 300 million people it means your going to encounter more low quality products unless your on the west coast and connected to some international syndicates importing good mdma.

Just because people don't have pupils dilated in a club doesn't mean they took mdma and it was meh they are most likely just on other drugs ketamine has overtaken the rave scene.


----------



## Negi

I feel like much of that was directed at me, so I'll respond to a few points.



Biscuit said:


> To this day, I continue to attend music festivals and all night dance events in a semi official capacity and I do not observe the youngsters out there on the dancefloor, who are apparently also on MDMA


"Apparently" on MDMA? Are you asking them what they have taken? You may have noticed from the increase in event sizes and commercialization, but things have gone mainstream. At a large commercial music festival alcohol is going to be the most common drug taken. Yeah having a pile of drunk people around is going to change the vibe. I think it would be helpful to keep the thread focused on actual MDMA experiences rather than the fact that music and nightlife trends change over the years.



Biscuit said:


> I have seen quantitative laboratory analysis results conducted on hundreds and hundreds of seized MDMA pills and powders by fully equipped and highly advanced government forensic laboratories since 2002


Your entire premise revolves around the idea that those labs are completely blind to whatever is causing the current mehDMA. 



Biscuit said:


> Until it is scientifically proven that we are wrong (which will likely require a sample accepted to be magic and a sample accepted to be meh being shown to be chemically identical in the material sense)


What specific analysis methods would you accept for this? As you mentioned above, "highly advanced government forensic laboratories" have been examining MDMA for well over 20 years and haven't published anything about a change.



Biscuit said:


> none of us are going to believe there is something right as opposed to wrong about the majority of MDMA available today.


This specific view is why I am pushing back against some things, and keep bringing up things from Reddit. I can absolutely accept that some batches of MDMA will have problems during the synthesis that could impact their purity or some effects. I'm not arguing that something like that can't exist. What I am against is the idea that the majority of the MDMA in the world is currently in that state. If you are saying that the majority of the MDMA in the world doesn't give certain effects, then the fact that Reddit is full of reports of those effects should matter. Where are the trip reports that match mehDMA effects? Outside of this thread, everyone is still getting pro-social effects from MDMA. Don't talk to me about the vibe at the nightclub, talk to me about reports from people who have taken tested MDMA.

Listen, I'm very willing to look at the science. I've posted more research papers than anyone else in the in the past ~50 pages, and have spend full afternoons reading through them and searching around. However this thread has given nothing but a moving target, with a number of different theories. It's been very difficult to even get a solid description of the medDMA effects. If you have the background and knowledge, throw out a hypothesis and start looking into it.



G_Chem said:


> Because they have the purest MDMA available.. Those three places are all known for having good illicit production.


So Dutch labs are giving Germans pure MDMA but shipments to the UK are getting cut to 50% purity (since the UK takes twice as much as Germany on average)? Can you show any research to support the idea that MDMA in the UK is less pure?


----------



## fasterfb

TripSitterNZ said:


> Just because your mdma sources are trash doesn't mean everybody is getting trash product.





Negi said:


> I'm not arguing that something like that can't exist. What I am against is the idea that the majority of the MDMA in the world is currently in that state.



Yes, I agree with the above.

My only issue is that the original post by @Le Junk  suggests that there is NO worthy MDMA being manufactured today. This is just not true.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> I feel like much of that was directed at me, so I'll respond to a few points.
> 
> 
> "Apparently" on MDMA? Are you asking them what they have taken? You may have noticed from the increase in event sizes and commercialization, but things have gone mainstream. At a large commercial music festival alcohol is going to be the most common drug taken. Yeah having a pile of drunk people around is going to change the vibe. I think it would be helpful to keep the thread focused on actual MDMA experiences rather than the fact that music and nightlife trends change over the years.
> 
> 
> Your entire premise revolves around the idea that those labs are completely blind to whatever is causing the current mehDMA.
> 
> 
> What specific analysis methods would you accept for this? As you mentioned above, "highly advanced government forensic laboratories" have been examining MDMA for well over 20 years and haven't published anything about a change.
> 
> 
> This specific view is why I am pushing back against some things, and keep bringing up things from Reddit. I can absolutely accept that some batches of MDMA will have problems during the synthesis that could impact their purity or some effects. I'm not arguing that something like that can't exist. What I am against is the idea that the majority of the MDMA in the world is currently in that state. If you are saying that the majority of the MDMA in the world doesn't give certain effects, then the fact that Reddit is full of reports of those effects should matter. Where are the trip reports that match mehDMA effects? Outside of this thread, everyone is still getting pro-social effects from MDMA. Don't talk to me about the vibe at the nightclub, talk to me about reports from people who have taken tested MDMA.
> 
> Listen, I'm very willing to look at the science. I've posted more research papers than anyone else in the in the past ~50 pages, and have spend full afternoons reading through them and searching around. However this thread has given nothing but a moving target, with a number of different theories. It's been very difficult to even get a solid description of the medDMA effects. If you have the background and knowledge, throw out a hypothesis and start looking into it.
> 
> 
> So Dutch labs are giving Germans pure MDMA but shipments to the UK are getting cut to 50% purity (since the UK takes twice as much as Germany on average)? Can you show any research to support the idea that MDMA in the UK is less pure?



Did I say that? Germans have many intelligent chemists, maybe not the same level of production but a decent domestic product.

From this article..



			https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/system/files/publications/2473/TD0116348ENN.pdf
		


“Production of MDMA takes place mainly in the Netherlands and Belgium, and the predominant synthesis technique used is reductive deamination”

And here’s some info on that regarding England..

“In 2018, the mean purity of MDMA powder at user level in England and Wales was 76%.”

76% might seem ok but it really isn’t when we compare to MDMA purity averaging high 90% in the 00’s.  I’d have to dig but there’s a thread on here showing average purity of loose MDMA powder/crystal being 98-99% pure in the mid 00’s.  (The article spanned a couple years and showed a trend to adding magnesium sulfate in small amounts as the years went on, 1-2% amounts.  Likely to increase crystal size.)

A member before showed how one product he had was low 90% and “magic” the other was 80-something % and meh.

It doesn’t take much impurity to ruin product.  And ~24% is hardly a small amount of impurities.  While some impurities can enhance effect, from my research the common synthesis routes give lackluster product when impure.  This is evident in The Hive if you take the time to look.

I’ll dig for more but Negi id slow your roll a bit.  Half the articles you post you either don’t truly understand or chop up to your liking.  Your good with the search engine I’ll give you that.

-GC


----------



## Negi

Why would the levels of impurities be different between the Netherlands and the UK though? Reaction impurities are very different from cuts. Are you suggesting they literally use a different synthesis that gives less MDMA when they are making MDMA for export?


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi

1. I don’t think observations from raves and other music events are without merit for this thread. You seem to be arguing that MDMA use has just gone down overall at live music events, and it is not as popular as other options such as alcohol. However, based on what I saw at a recent EDM event, there were only a very, very small percentage of people who looked like they were rolling. I find it unlikely that MDMA usage has gone down so much that such a small percentage of people at an EDM event would have been using the drug.

In fact, use of MDMA has gone up in the USA. “The National Survey on Drug Use and Health, found that in 2014 more than 17 million persons aged 12 or older reported using MDMA at least once in their lifetimes.43 This is an increase from 11 million reported 10 years prior.44 In 2014, the number of people who used in the past month was estimated to be 660,000,43 up from 450,000 in 2004.44”

From: https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicati...is-the-scope-of-mdma-use-in-the-united-states

So, based on that data, we should see an increase in MDMA use at live music events in the United States rather than a decrease.

2. You said, “Your entire premise revolves around the idea that those labs are completely blind to whatever is causing the current mehDMA.” This is false, and an oversimplification of what has been discussed in this thread. Labs that are currently using GCMS as the primary means of identifying drugs for recreational users may be missing certain contaminants. This is specific to GCMS analysis and has been confirmed by multiple research articles posted in this thread. The research articles also discussed that some contaminants may not be observed unless researchers are specifically looking for them.

While labs using GCMS may miss these contaminants, it is possible that more advanced forensic and law enforcement laboratories may be able to identify them. However, if that data is not being specifically collected or analyzed, it may seem of low importance unless the forensics labs are trying to identify how the drugs were manufactured or where they originated. Many of these articles have been posted to this thread as well, and these articles establish how different synthesis routes produce different impurities.

It is not that we think that all labs are blind to what is causing the current MehDMA. It is that we think GCMS may be an ineffective tool for identifying certain impurities when running in an automated fashion. If there was a lab out there with NMR, GCMS, Raman, Liquid Chromatography etc, and we could pay that lab to identify two samples and note the differences, I think we could progress in this conversation very quickly.

3. You said, “What specific analysis methods would you accept for this?”

Several people have answered this question previously. Based on what I have seen in published research, I would like to see the raw GCMS data as well as NMR, Raman, and High-performance liquid chromatography.

4. You said, “As you mentioned above, "highly advanced government forensic laboratories" have been examining MDMA for well over 20 years and haven't published anything about a change.”

That is also false. There have been many published articles that talk about the shift in impurities due to the change in synthesis methods. This has been studied by forensic labs and the information has been published. The issue is that we do not know which impurities are present in the meh samples in comparison to the magic samples because the recreational labs like Drugs Data and IEC are not testing at that level of detail. I am not just hypothesizing this. International Energy Control has told me in writing that they do not usually run the machines at the sensitivity level required to identify byproducts left in the product. If I want that type of analysis run, they will have to change the settings on the machines.

5. “Where are the trip reports that match mehDMA effects? “

Here are a few. There are a lot of reports like this on reddit. Obviously, there could be other explanations for what these posters describe, but the quality of the product could also be an explanation. Just because they are not using the "meh" terminology we have developed in this thread, that does not mean that they are not experiencing something similar.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/ilp1if


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/d7pjmc


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/hpgmnl


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/ikfscl


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/iq6wt6

https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/ipzehr/never_been_able_to_recreate_first_time_experience/

https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/inxab0/high_tolerance/

But you also have to think about the audience for this subreddit. I notice a lot of really young posters asking questions about first times or basic usage. These young users may simple write off a subpar experience and move on to the next roll.

6. You said, “However this thread has given nothing but a moving target, with a number of different theories. It's been very difficult to even get a solid description of the medDMA effects. If you have the background and knowledge, throw out a hypothesis and start looking into it.”

Research should not start with a hypothesis. Research should start with a research question, and then as you research and learn you are able to develop a hypothesis from the original question. Le Junk’s original post posed a question, so it is normal and natural that various theories have been considered. Yes, there have been multiple potential hypotheses stated in this thread. Unfortunately, in order to move forward with proving any of them, we need access to advanced lab analysis techniques.


----------



## indigoaura

One thing I found interesting in one of the posts from reddit was this commentary:



> My eyes didn’t dilate a lot and there was no euphoria... I think I took a pretty accurate dose- I am a 19 year old 5f4 70kg female.
> 
> I love the effect MDMA normally gives me, but this time there was no euphoria, was still a good roll however. Before I was educated on dosage / testing, I took around 120mg for my first time and there was lots of euphoria and bliss, but I didn’t roll that hard at all.



How is this poster defining a "good roll?"

For me, if there is no euphoria, it is not a "good roll." 

Then, she says that for her first roll she had a lot of euphoria and bliss, but didn't "roll hard at all."

I think there is a disconnect in how we are using the terminology vs. how she is using the terminology (and perhaps how many young people are using the terminology). 

If the idea of euphoria is somehow separate from the idea of a "good roll," then why is that? What is a "good roll" if it is divorced from euphoria?


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Why would the levels of impurities be different between the Netherlands and the UK though? Reaction impurities are very different from cuts. Are you suggesting they literally use a different synthesis that gives less MDMA when they are making MDMA for export?



Very simple.  The higher purity product stays at home while the lesser purity product shipped to places like the U.K.

Obviously your gonna want to keep your home country stocked with prime product. Whereas fuck it if some U.K. youth has impure drugs or not.  Why send super pure when they’ll buy less pure all the same.

Keep em  coming 

And no not different synthesis, different purity.  99.99% pure product is the same from any route.  If you’d actually read my posts instead of continually throwing cyclical questions that really are getting you nowhere, you’d see I’ve talked about all this many times.

-GC


----------



## Negi

Those are some interesting reports, and I think a few of them point towards a more individual element as the issue.



			
				https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/ilp1if/no_euphoria_mild_buzzy_anxiety_on_roll/ said:
			
		

> so the first time i took MDMA it was 150 mg and i felt little to no effects. the ones present being a tight jaw and slightly manic


Then in the comments


			
				https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/iq6wt6/dose_questions_natural_tolerance/g4pgnz5/ said:
			
		

> also forgot to mention that all my friends were super high the first time



Bold on this one is mine:


			
				https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/ikfscl/take_ages_to_come_up_and_no_euphoria/ said:
			
		

> The most recent time I done it I took 150mg overall. I dropped around 100mg at 22:45 by bombing it, then another 50mg around 12:15 .  It was tested. I ate about 7pm and left it at least 3h before dosing...
> 
> I felt very slight effects at 1am but then I started to feel it more at 3am; eye wiggles, jaw chattering. *All my other friends said it hit them well within 30/45m of dropping*. However I was up until 6am and they all fell asleep at 3am.



Hard to say about the other posts, obviously the one taking a pill is very uncertain in terms of the actual dosage involved. I suspect a SSRI might be involved in the other one, as it seems like increasing the dosage had a noticeable effect. I asked for some more info.


I also found a person who was taking extreme doses back in the 90s


			
				https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/hpgmnl/i_cannot_get_into_this_crystal_form_of_mdma_ive/fxrwx2f/ said:
			
		

> I dont doubt what you said. I also always tested mine back then and would take two half gram gels around 9 and would re-dose sometimes at the after hour  and I wouldn't be coming down till around 8-9 when I got home. This happened with me personally and most of my friends.






G_Chem said:


> Very simple. The higher purity product stays at home while the lesser purity product shipped to places like the U.K.
> 
> Obviously your gonna want to keep your home country stocked with prime product. Whereas fuck it if some U.K. youth has impure drugs or not. Why send super pure when they’ll buy less pure all the same.


Ah, I'm sure every lab is very inquisitive about what their wholesalers are doing with each batch to make sure that it goes to the right location.


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi - The larger point is that there are plenty of reports on reddit of subpar MDMA experiences, and to imply that there are not any is misleading. I did not perform a thorough investigation of every comment on every post, but it required minimal effort to dig those up using only a few key word searches. You have repeatedly claimed that reddit only contains people who have excellent MDMA experiences, but that is simply not the case. I see people on reddit complaining of the quality of today's MDMA even in comment sections of unrelated threads.

I don't understand the need to debate minutia and clog up a thread that is already 288 pages long.

Can't we just agree on some basic things and move the conversation forward?

1. There is typical, magical, as expected, MDMA in circulation all around the world.
2. This standard MDMA has an expected effects profile that has been referenced in many published research articles, with peak effects typically noted from doses of 120-125 mg.
3. Some people, _for reasons not yet fully understood, _are encountering MDMA that appears to be MDMA through GCMS analysis, yet they do not experience the standard effects profile from doses of 120-125 mg.
4. This subpar or "meh" effects profile is often noted by multiple people who consume the same "batch" of MDMA.

Question: Why do some batches of MDMA provoke muted and subpar effects in multiple users?

Batch focused hypotheses:

1. Changes in synthesis methods have resulted in different impurities than those previously found in MDMA. Those impurities negatively interfere in the effects profile of MDMA.
2.  Changes in synthesis methods have resulted in different impurities than those previously found in MDMA. Previously active impurities that positively impacted the effects profile of MDMA are no longer found in the product.
3. Changes in synthesis methods have resulted in a different but structurally similar compound masquerading as MDMA to GCMS and/or being present in unison with MDMA without GCMS detection.

User focused hypothesis:
1. Differences in user physiology mean that some users are unable to feel the full effects of MDMA during some MDMA experiences.

Hybrid hypothesis:
1. Differences in user physiology mean that some users are unable to feel the full effects of MDMA during some MDMA experiences due to the presence of impurities.


----------



## Jmoda

.


indigoaura said:


> So, based on that data, we should see an increase in MDMA use at live music events in the United States rather than a decrease




This is actually not necessarily true, in fact, I would argue the opposite is true because the piece of the equation that is missing is the number and size of events. If all else were held equal, ie, the number and size of shows was the same ten years ago vs today, then yes, I would definitely expect a higher % of people at a given show to be rolling, however, as Im sure you are aware, with the astronomical explosion of edm shows and festivals in the past decade, I would certainly expect a smaller % as that growth has more than likely outpaced the growth in MDMA users.

If you think about it, lets say back in the day there was only a show to go to once every three months. Everyone is going to gear up and roll at that one event. Now there are shows, festivals, clubs, and concerts available way more often. Most people are not going to roll at all of them and a lot of when someone rolls will be dispersed across all the offerings so now at the other shows one might choose to drink or do k or trip, etc. Its also duration, there are tons of festivals that have expanded to 2 or even 3 days, even that extension will chop up the rolling crowd. Do i roll on day 1 and drink on day 2? Do i trip on day 1 and roll on day 2?

This means on average, any given show you go to will have a much smaller % of people rolling.

The 660k last-month users vs the 450k decade prior is a 50% increase. I would bet the house that there are well above 100% more show-days than a decade prior.


----------



## indigoaura

> Ah, I'm sure every lab is very inquisitive about what their wholesalers are doing with each batch to make sure that it goes to the right location.



Considering that purification steps often occur after synthesis is complete, it would not surprise me if labs sell different tiers of product for different prices. Perhaps those who are importing product are also having to deal with shipping and transportation costs, and they opt for the lower cost product, whereas local distributors are more likely to purchase the highly purified product due to not having overhead shipping costs. That does not seem illogical to me.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> Perhaps those who are importing product are also having to deal with shipping and transportation costs, and they opt for the lower cost product, whereas local distributors are more likely to purchase the highly purified product due to not having overhead shipping costs. That does not seem illogical to me.


That's the opposite of what normally happens. If you have transportation costs you want to maximize the value you transport per kg. If you are paying $100 per kilo to have something smuggled (hypothetical price), why would you want 240g of that to be useless impurities? If you need to save costs you can legally buy cutting products at the destination for cents per gram.


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> "Apparently" on MDMA? Are you asking them what they have taken?


I do not know whether you do this intentionaly or subconsciously, but do try to self-critically analyze your response to "Biscuit;s" post:



			
				Biscuit said:
			
		

> I do *not* observe the youngsters out there on the dancefloor, who are apparently also on MDMA



His statement clearly indicates that he does not observe the typical effects of MDMA in these youngsters.
The validity of this observation does not require the knowledge what drug they have taken.  It is enough that whatever they have taken does not make them behave like people on MDMA in EDM events.



Negi said:


> At a large commercial music festival   alcohol is going to be the most common drug taken.


This might be true about Hard Rock concerts but not about Rave events with repetitious techno/trance music that is best appreciated on MDMA.
I'd even venture that Raves repel ethanol drinkers.

Such statements demonstrate your tendency against the premise of this thread despite indeed being the most prolific paper quoter here.



Negi said:


> I think it would be helpful to keep the thread focused on actual MDMA experiences rather than the fact that music and nightlife trends change over the years.


I also think that people's behavior at EDMs/Raves (Rock concerts not included) in only a circumstantial evidence.
Personally, I would like to see a double blind study involving sending suspected Meh MDMA and Magic MDMA doses to random MDMA-naive people for evaluation and receivng a feedback from them in the form of questionnaires, eye photos and blood test results.



Negi said:


> What specific analysis methods would you accept for this? As you mentioned above, "highly advanced government forensic laboratories" have been examining MDMA for well over 20 years and haven't published anything about a change.


I already answered this question and it was quite recently.
Certainly, I would accept an analysis method that does not rely on smashing unknown molecules into pieces and then analyzing their fragments. Also, not separating different molecules into fractions, before trying to identify them, is unacceptable IMO.

This is what would convince me:
Derivatized liquid chromatography in a chiral column followed by two or more non-fragmenting molecular identification methods of EACH fraction, i.e.: 13C-NMR, 1H-NMR, Raman, IR, etc.
...and most importantly - access to raw chromatograms and spectrograms.

Heavy metal content analysis (with e.g. ICP-OES/MS) would be a cherry on top.


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> My only issue is that the original post by @Le Junk  suggests that there is NO worthy MDMA being manufactured today. This is just not true.


Of course there is a worthy MDMA manufactured today and IMO there is more and more of it as the PMK Glycidate stashes are becoming exhausted.
This is a recent change and it increases the Magic MDMA/Meh MDMA ratio in the marketplace, which makes it more and more difficult to solve the puzzle posed by this thread.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> Very simple.  The higher purity product stays at home while the lesser purity product shipped to places like the U.K.
> Obviously your gonna want to keep your home country stocked with prime product


I don't think this is a case of patriotism but caring about your own brand - when the manufacurer also has its own domestic distribution network.


----------



## indigoaura

> Derivatized liquid chromatography in a chiral column followed by two or more non-fragmenting molecular identification methods of EACH fraction, i.e.: 13C-NMR, 1H-NMR, Raman, IR, etc.
> ...and most importantly - access to raw chromatograms and spectrograms.
> 
> Heavy metal content analysis (with e.g. ICP-OES/MS) would be a cherry on top.



Here is the question...

Are there any labs operating anywhere in the world that would perform these tests on samples in a manner that would be safe for the person submitting the samples?

At this point, we have multiple participants in the thread who have access to both magic and meh samples. We have many other participants in the thread who have access to one type of sample or another. 

I am willing to pay the lab directly so that the cost would not fall on whoever is submitting the sample, but I need a lab to work with. 

And it needs to be a reliable, professional, discreet lab that would provide copies of the results.

I have tried to find a lab to work with, but have not had any luck. If we could identify a lab we could work with, then maybe this conversation could progress in a data driven manner.


----------



## Jmoda

user666 said:


> This might be true about Hard Rock concerts but not about Rave events with repetitious techno/trance music that is best appreciated on MDMA.
> I'd even venture that Raves repel ethanol drinkers.



This is just not true at all. Statisically, with more edm events and shows, it dilutes the average number of rollers at a given event because the rate of events has outpaced the rate of MDMA users. I know tons of people that go to edm festivals and shows that do not use MDMA, but you know what they do do? They drink. Think about a 2-3 day festival, im definitely not rolling all days, what i am doing on a non-rolling day is drinking. By that virtue alone, you have diluted the number of people rolling.

Music is not all repetitive house/techno (which i do love....), but look at all the pop and build-a-drop music in the edm space now. Chainsmokers? Marshmello? Cookie cutter bullshit that appeals to masses....the masses of which drink and dont do molly often, if ever.

In the true house/techno space, ketamine has also taken over. Plenty of my friends rarely roll anymore because ketamine has taken over as their drug of choice for those warehouse techno parties.

My point is that, unless you 100% know what each and every single person is on...its not very prudent to use such examples...and in fact, only detracts from the conversation, quite frankly, like the pupil dilation point that keeps coming up.


----------



## indigoaura

Jmoda said:


> This event because the rate of events has outpaced the rate of MDMA users. I know tons of people that go to edm festivals and shows that do not use MDMA, but you know what they do do? They drink. Think about a 2-3 day festival, im definitely not rolling all days, what i am doing on a non-rolling day is drinking. By that virtue alone, you have diluted the number of people rolling.
> 
> Music is not all repetitive house/techno (which i do love....), but look at all the pop and build-a-drop music in the edm space now. Chainsmokers? Marshmello? Cookie cutter bullshit that appeals to masses....the masses of which drink and dont do molly often, if ever.
> 
> In the true house/techno space, ketamine has also taken over. Plenty of my friends rarely roll anymore because ketamine has taken over as their drug of choice for those warehouse techno parties.
> 
> My point is that, unless you 100% know what each and every single person is on...its not very prudent to use such examples...and in fact, only detracts from the conversation, quite frankly, like the pupil dilation point that keeps coming up.



1. https://drugabuse.com/featured/substance-use-at-live-music-events/

This study shows that although alcohol is the most used substance, approximately 25% of attendees at EDM events take MDMA.

At the EDM event I attended, 25% of attendees did not display visual characteristics of MDMA use.

This is just one study, and it does not take into account survey participant's willingness to admit to illegal activities.

2. Another study out of Australia showed that when "760 people attending a major Australian live music event in 2017" were surveyed, that 73.9% of them had used MDMA in the past month.
Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7405356/#CR2

Although this data shows past month usage rather than current usage, other studies indicate that the majority of MDMA use occurs at live music events. So, if 73.9% of live music attendees used MDMA in the past month, it seems possible that the 25% estimate of the previous study is low.

Huge difference between those two statistics, but of course, they are different demographics and the studies are set up differently. Even if we go with the low percentage estimate that 25% of attendees at an EDM event take MDMA, that data does not line up with my observations at EDM events. @Biscuit would you say that 25% of EDM attendees appear to be using MDMA based on your observations?

Before the debate ensues, I acknowledge that out of that 25% there will be the typical subset of "bunk" pills in circulation where the user is getting something like meth or tylenol.

IMO, what detracts from the conversation are the pages and pages of debate that ensue over a simple observation. Biscuit shared his observation of the EDM scene and how he feels that lines up with his observations of MDMA in general. It is simple, observational data. It is not a hard data point. No, he is not going person to person and interviewing them about whether they took MDMA, how much MDMA, whether they are on SSRIs etc. But it is observational data that is related to the conversation.

As for pupil dilation...that is objectively observable information. Not sure why you would say that including information about pupils is not relevant, especially since research supports pupil dilation as a key characteristic of MDMA usage. I agree that endlessly debating the people on reddit seems somewhat pointless. However, since Negi was bringing up the reddit posters, it needed to be addressed.


----------



## indigoaura

@user666 


> Personally, I would like to see a double blind study involving sending suspected Meh MDMA and Magic MDMA doses to random MDMA-naive people for evaluation and receivng a feedback from them in the form of questionnaires, eye photos and blood test results.



I would like to see this data too. However, for ethical reasons, a study like that would be several steps down the line I think. A study like this would involve giving the participants contaminants with unknown safety profiles.

First, we need to identify if there actually is anything observably/physically different about meh samples compared to magic samples.

I think researchers would need to examine the correlation (if any) between user submitted samples and user experience. If it turned out that a high percentage of atypical and subpar user experiences correlated to a specific impurity profile, then those impurities could be examined for safety and activity. After that, you could proceed with double blind studies where MDMA-naive people received samples.

I could see researches pursuing a study that aimed to examine whether synthesis byproducts had an effect on the end user experience. That would be a great starting point. 

Maybe we should identify similar studies and reach out to researchers who have previously taken on this kind of work.


----------



## user666

I know a lab in Eastern Europe that will do HPLC fractionalization from a solvent of your choice without identifying the fractions.
This is useful because the MDMA fraction can be discarded afterwards and the remainder can be sent to just about any lab for identification, without fear of the breweries' agents.

What I am missing are virgin Guinea Pigs to reliably differentiate between Meh samples and Magic samples.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Maybe we should identify similar studies and reach out to researchers who have previously taken on this kind of work.


I am certain that forensic labs have done such analyses already but they used this data to determine the synth route instead of the effects that the synth byproducts have on users.  ...something that Negi overlooks.


----------



## Jmoda

indigoaura said:


> 1. https://drugabuse.com/featured/substance-use-at-live-music-events/
> 
> This study shows that although alcohol is the most used substance, approximately 25% of attendees at EDM events take MDMA.
> 
> At the EDM event I attended, 25% of attendees did not display visual characteristics of MDMA use.
> 
> This is just one study, and it does not take into account survey participant's willingness to admit to illegal activities.
> 
> 2. Another study out of Australia showed that when "760 people attending a major Australian live music event in 2017" were surveyed, that 73.9% of them had used MDMA in the past month.
> Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7405356/#CR2
> 
> Although this data shows past month usage rather than current usage, other studies indicate that the majority of MDMA use occurs at live music events. So, if 73.9% of live music attendees used MDMA in the past month, it seems possible that the 25% estimate of the previous study is low.
> 
> Huge difference between those two statistics, but of course, they are different demographics and the studies are set up differently. Even if we go with the low percentage estimate that 25% of attendees at an EDM event take MDMA, that data does not line up with my observations at EDM events. @Biscuit would you say that 25% of EDM attendees appear to be using MDMA based on your observations?
> 
> Before the debate ensues, I acknowledge that out of that 25% there will be the typical subset of "bunk" pills in circulation where the user is getting something like meth or tylenol.
> 
> IMO, what detracts from the conversation are the pages and pages of debate that ensue over a simple observation. Biscuit shared his observation of the EDM scene and how he feels that lines up with his observations of MDMA in general. It is simple, observational data. It is not a hard data point. No, he is not going person to person and interviewing them about whether they took MDMA, how much MDMA, whether they are on SSRIs etc. But it is observational data that is related to the conversation.
> 
> As for pupil dilation...that is objectively observable information. Not sure why you would say that including information about pupils is not relevant, especially since research supports pupil dilation as a key characteristic of MDMA usage. I agree that endlessly debating the people on reddit seems somewhat pointless. However, since Negi was bringing up the reddit posters, it needed to be addressed.



There was some study done a few years ago and the conclusion was that something like 85% of seized "molly" at an ultra music festival one year did not even have trace amounts of MDMA, so i think that even that 25% number of people reporting to have used is way lower.

As for the pupil dilation piece, this, in my opinion, is pointless because there are clearly "meh" product/experiences that cause pupil dilation...


----------



## Digger909

Four years after the thread began...

do we have an answer?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Digger909 said:


> Four years after the thread began...
> 
> do we have an answer?



Nope...


----------



## Jmoda

Le Junk has magic product still available to him. Seems like the best solution is for everyone to sample some : P


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

I think @TripSitterNZ   ought to share his shit for the good of the thread...


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> That's the opposite of what normally happens. If you have transportation costs you want to maximize the value you transport per kg. If you are paying $100 per kilo to have something smuggled (hypothetical price), why would you want 240g of that to be useless impurities? If you need to save costs you can legally buy cutting products at the destination for cents per gram.



Because that’s just not how it works in the illegal drug smuggling world...  In theory your right, but look at all the impure drugs which get moved internationally.

Black Tar Heroin being a fine example, it could be purified much more creating less volume to transport, but its easier/cheaper to make as is and risk a higher volume of product.

If the producers save enough on that 24% cutting corners then it doesn’t matter if they pay a bit more in volume transportation costs.

Again it likely takes good amount of effort to get high purity product which one is more likely to do for their domestic scene over folks in other countries.

-GC


----------



## Negi

user666 said:


> This might be true about Hard Rock concerts but not about Rave events with repetitious techno/trance music that is best appreciated on MDMA.
> I'd even venture that Raves repel ethanol drinkers.


You would be wrong:







indigoaura said:


> This study shows that although alcohol is the most used substance, approximately 25% of attendees at EDM events take MDMA.


They don't seem to have posted the exact questions they asked, but from the wording I think it's more likely that 25% of people had at least once taken MDMA at an EDM music event, not that 25% of people are taking it every time they go to an EDM music event.



indigoaura said:


> 2. Another study out of Australia showed that when "760 people attending a major Australian live music event in 2017" were surveyed, that 73.9% of them had used MDMA in the past month.
> Link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7405356/#CR2





> The most commonly used drug in the *last 12 months* was ecstasy ( 73.9% )


These are the actual numbers you want:


> In keeping with the aforementioned high risk-taking behaviour seen among young festival goers, the frequency of ecstasy use was also relatively high; with 12.9% reporting use every 2 weeks or more and 32.1% reporting monthly use.



I think this might also be of interest to the thread:




51% of people stick with 200mg or less as their dose per session.


----------



## Jmoda

I dont think its any secret that festival crowds have changed for the worse as things get more mainstream. Ask someone to compare ultra, edc, burning man, demf/movement from ten years ago to now.

The answers will all heavily tilt towards the same, the crowds were way better back in the day. Thats because the people who know and respect the culture were the majority of ravers, now its flooded with your everyday lets just get fucked up to get fucked up Joeblow.

(Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with getting fucked up to blow off some steam, but theres definitely a difference in level of respect and research between people in the scene then vs now, im sure even more so as you go back even further)

Using crowd as an argument for magic v not, I think is horribly flawed ....and just like there is still magic out there, I can tell you there are still shows and roll sessions happening where I guarantee you, you will find the love and dancing that you seek, you just have to know where to look.

Or maybe for those of you that still have access to the magic...the onus is on you. You have an all important part of the equation....


----------



## indigoaura

Jmoda said:


> There was some study done a few years ago and the conclusion was that something like 85% of seized "molly" at an ultra music festival one year did not even have trace amounts of MDMA, so i think that even that 25% number of people reporting to have used is way lower.
> 
> As for the pupil dilation piece, this, in my opinion, is pointless because there are clearly "meh" product/experiences that cause pupil dilation...



I literally acknowledged this when I posted:


> Before the debate ensues, I acknowledge that out of that 25% there will be the typical subset of "bunk" pills in circulation where the user is getting something like meth or tylenol.



But, also, the article I posted never indicated that the MDMA used was purchased at the rave. Considering the change in culture with the rise of the DW, I would assume more people bring their own product than before.

But none of that changes the fact that I have observed, and Biscuit has observed, and a few other people in the EDM scene have also observed, that those who appear to be on MDMA are few and far between at EDM events. This may simply be due to cultural change, as you believe, and an increase in the number of events, or it could somehow be related to the topic of this thread. I genuinely don't understand why a short observation inspires so much debate, however. 

Also, where are you seeing people report meh experiences with pupil dilation? I don't recall a lot of them in this thread.

@Negi 

Looks like I misread that 2nd study, my apologies. 

Perhaps, in general, I overestimate the number of people who do MDMA. I came of age surrounded by MDMA users. My entire social circle revolved around MDMA. For reasons I won't go into here, I had limited socialization and exposure to the world until I left home at 18. At that point, I immediately fell into the race scene and met my people there. My perception of how common MDMA usage is may be skewed by my own experience.


----------



## Jmoda

indigoaura said:


> I literally acknowledged this when I posted:
> 
> 
> But, also, the article I posted never indicated that the MDMA used was purchased at the rave. Considering the change in culture with the rise of the DW, I would assume more people bring their own product than before.
> 
> But none of that changes the fact that I have observed, and Biscuit has observed, and a few other people in the EDM scene have also observed, that those who appear to be on MDMA are few and far between at EDM events. This may simply be due to cultural change, as you believe, and an increase in the number of events, or it could somehow be related to the topic of this thread. I genuinely don't understand why a short observation inspires so much debate, however.
> 
> Also, where are you seeing people report meh experiences with pupil dilation? I don't recall a lot of them in this thread.
> 
> @Negi
> 
> Looks like I misread that 2nd study, my apologies.
> 
> Perhaps, in general, I overestimate the number of people who do MDMA. I came of age surrounded by MDMA users. My entire social circle revolved around MDMA. For reasons I won't go into here, I had limited socialization and exposure to the world until I left home at 18. At that point, I immediately fell into the race scene and met my people there. My perception of how common MDMA usage is may be skewed by my own experience.




My apologies - I didn't mean to come off as arguing your point, rather expand on that very point you mentioned, but putting emphasis that the "standard subset", is quite a large subset, in fact, majority.


----------



## indigoaura

> I dont think its any secret that festival crowds have changed for the worse as things get more mainstream.



I totally agree with this overall, and it is not just the EDM scene. I can't go to any kind of music event anymore without dealing with the people who are not there for the music, but just there to talk and socialize.


----------



## Jmoda

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> True to a point, but the last MagicDMA I had didn't cause massive pupil dilation - it was significant but not excessive. But everything else was there in shitloads...





HeadphonesandLSD said:


> Concerning pupil dilation; I do not think this is a good way to judge between Meh and Magic. My pupils sometimes don't even dilate on LSD because I often times take it with a mild opioid like kratom. I've had pupil dilation on both Meh and Magic. Even without opioids it seems very random now. I don't just get this with these two substances. Various RCs known to dilate pupils sometimes don't do it to me. Sometimes they only dilate for parts of the trip/roll.
> 
> With opioids being so common now I wonder how many reports of pupils not dilating are just folks mixing MDMA with an opioid. Another thing to consider is Fent being such a common cut that it's showing up even in cocaine. I wouldn't doubt that some people are cutting crystal MDMA with Fent down the distribution line. These idiots are adding it to everything these days because they think it'll hook the customer faster.




Here are two examples of pupil dilation being iffy. One has had pupil dilation on both meh and magic product. One had a magic experience and only some pupil dilation, seemingly not the "cant see any colors of your eyes" kind


----------



## Jmoda

draculic acid69 said:


> This ability to pee normally rules out meh as being mbdb as was suggested earlier on. on mbdb pissing becomes quite difficult and while u feel the need to piss you can't get out more than a few drops before stopping.i don't get it with mdma just mbdb.it was a common side effect experienced by many ppl.its sort of a signature of the substance.



Sorry to bring up a possibly already discussed point, but I was looking back and found this one particularly interesting.

I distinctly remember that none of our crew had any trouble peeing until around 2014  when it seemed to then happen all the time. Part of the reason could be dose, we would stupidly take some pretty heroic doses back in the day, really even as recently as a two years ago..although before 2014, even with heroic doses, it never seemed to be an issue. Then all of a sudden it started being an issue. Hm...


----------



## indigoaura

One thing I have been meaning to do, but have not done due to time, is to comb through this thread and add all of the user reports to a spreadsheet. I may use Google forms/sheets in such a manner that we could also see pie charts and data about all of these anecdotal experiences. I think it would be helpful to know what percentage of people note the lack of eye dilation, for example. 

Despite having some outliers, if it is something that is noted by the majority of those who report the issue, it is valuable information. As @user666 has pointed out, it gives us a possible explanation for which system may be involved in the anomaly.

Whether you favor a product or user focused explanation, understanding which system is involved in this subpar response is still very valuable information. 

@user666 Would this Eastern European lab accept international samples? Also, what happens to the separated samples, do they give them back to you?


----------



## indigoaura

Jmoda said:


> Sorry to bring up a possibly already discussed point, but I was looking back and found this one particularly interesting.
> 
> I distinctly remember that none of our crew had any trouble peeing until around 2014  when it seemed to then happen all the time. Part of the reason could be dose, we would stupidly take some pretty heroic doses back in the day, really even as recently as a two years ago..although before 2014, even with heroic doses, it never seemed to be an issue. Then all of a sudden it started being an issue. Hm...



For me personally, the inability to urinate was something that usually happened on MDMA, but later in the roll. Usually happened more if I took higher doses. I would be hard pressed to associate it more or less with good/bad experiences. I don't remember this as well.


----------



## user666

Negi said:


> You would be wrong:


Yes, I am wrong according to this study.
I was going by the experience in my neck of the woods where tipsy/drunk people cannot even get in because the bouncers breathalyze and search everyone and alcohol is not sold at these events. No liquor license. The drunkards don't even bother coming.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> @user666 Would this Eastern European lab accept international samples?


I'll check



indigoaura said:


> Also, what happens to the separated samples, do they give them back to you?


Yes, separated out in vials.


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> Yes, I am wrong according to this study.
> I was going by the experience in my neck of the woods where tipsy/drunk people cannot even get in because the bouncers breathalyze and search everyone and alcohol is not sold at these events. No liquor license.



Yea that study was likely done on mainstream “EDM” where the culture is pretty much dead.  The scene your talking about is different to the crowds seen at major EDM events like EDC, Ultra, etc.  

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Have we seen this one before? 



			Sci-Hub: article not found
		




> In humans, duloxetine inhibited the effects of MDMA including elevations in circulating NE, increases in blood pressure and heart rate, and the subjective drug effects. Duloxetine inhibited the pharmacodynamic response to MDMA despite an increase in duloxetine-associated elevations in plasma MDMA levels. The findings confirm the important role of MDMA-induced 5-HT and NE release in the psychotropic effects of MDMA.


----------



## indigoaura

I keep posting these articles about Duloxetine because they establish some important facts.

1. In this article, they state clearly that,


> The pharmacological effect of MDMA can be blocked by monoamine transporter inhibitors.



Link: https://sci-hub.st/https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0036476

2. And we already know, from a previously posted article that some synthesis byproducts inhibit monoamine transporters, as discussed here with compounds 12 and 13.



> If added 4 min before MDMA to the superfusion buffer, 12 and 13 concentration-dependently suppressed the release induced by 3 M MDMA in NET-, SERT-, and DAT-expressing cells...





> The main finding of this study is that two defined byproducts of illegal MDMA synthesis interact in low micromolar concentrations with the human plasmalemmal monoamine transporters.





> On the same line, one could expect that 12 and 13 would attenuate the psychological effects of ecstasy in humans consistent with observations that serotonin uptake inhibitors prevent various effects in human volunteers





> In conclusion, we have found that byproducts of illegal ecstasy synthesis can interact with the primary sites of action of MDMA, the monoamine transporters, and were active with similar potency as MDMA. The mode of interaction, predominantly transport inhibition compared with induction of release, argues against a neurotoxic potential of the substances investigated.



Link: https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426

I hate to oversimplify this 290 page debate, but I can't help but see this as a 1+1=2 situation.

All of the following statements are supported with published research.

1. A great deal of illicit MDMA contains synthesis byproducts.

2. The synthesis byproducts vary depending on the synthesis routes, leading to different batches with different impurity profiles.

3. Some of those synthesis byproducts have the potential to inhibit monoamine transporters.

4. MDMA effects (including pupil dilation) are blocked by monoamine transporter inhibitors.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that synthesis byproducts could block the effects of MDMA through monoamine inhibition.

I don't feel like that is a cognitive leap. That statement is supported by published research at this point.


----------



## indigoaura

Also worth noting...

The Duloxetine study used 16 healthy MDMA virgins.



> None of the 16 subjects had used ecstasy previously.



Despite this MDMA naive state,



> Duloxetine markedly reduced the psychotropic and cardiostimulant responses to MDMA in humans. Duloxetine decreased all aspects of MDMA’s subjective effects in the VASs [8,10], including psychostimulant effects such as feelings of ‘‘good drug effects,’’ ‘‘drug liking,’’ ‘‘drug high,’’ and ‘‘stimulation’’ (Table 1; Fig. 2b-d) but also so-called ‘‘entactogenic’’ or ‘‘empathogenic’’ MDMA-typical effects [31,32] such as feelings of being ‘‘open,’’ ‘‘closer to others,’’ and more ‘‘talkative’’ (Table 1; Fig. 2e and f). In the AMRS [21], duloxetine prevented MDMA-induced increases in ‘‘well-being,’’ ‘‘emotional excitation,’’ and ‘‘extroversion’’



There is a very detailed table that breaks it all down. Also, check the charts on page 7 that show just how blunted the response to MDMA is.

So, now we also know that healthy MDMA virgins will not experience the full effects of MDMA if monoamine transporters are inhibited.



			Sci-Hub: article not found


----------



## indigoaura

Negi and others have commented that there is not a 100% consistent description of the effects of meh product. This is likely due to variation in the type and amount of synthesis byproducts. 

This study points out the possible variation of different inhibiting agents that would lead to...



> ...unique transporter interactions for different inhibitor-releaser combinations.





			Sci-Hub: article not found


----------



## Ketamania

Synthesis byproducts and crappy washing

Don't get me started about pills.


----------



## indigoaura

ashwolf22101 said:


> Synthesis byproducts and crappy washing
> 
> Don't get me started about pills.



I think this thread lives to get you started.


----------



## user666

I think there is no doubt that monoamine transporter inhibitors wreck the MDMA experience.  I don't think even the most avid Meh deniers dispute that.
Adding one of them (e.g. the Duloxetine) to pure MDMA would certainly produce Meh MDMA.

The real issues are:
*1*) what MDMA synth byproducts act like them ?
*2*) how potent they are (mg, µg, ng) ?
*3*) what synth mechanism leads to their formation ?
*4*) why the old synths didn't generate them ?
*5*) why labs do not detect them ( could be related to #2 ) ?

As far as that specific example of Duloxetine goes, it is a Naphthol compound, which contains Sulfur (in Thiophene form) and I do not see any mechanism, that could accidentally generate it in any known MDMA synth.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> 2. And we already know, from a previously posted article that some synthesis byproducts inhibit monoamine transporters, as discussed here with compounds 12 and 13.


Yes, I wrote about them in *this post*.










It provides plausible answers to issues #1, #3 and to #5 because of pyrolytic disproprtionation in GC/MS ...and in case of M-ALPHA-HMCA, also to #4.
#2 remains unknown.

P.S.
These compounds are so much larger that even a simple column chromatography will separate them.  Also, Tosyl Chloride should (in theory) preferentially bind to M-ALPHA-HMCA so it should be possible to detect it that way or even remove it entirely.


----------



## indigoaura

I realize that to some extent the new study does not really reveal new info. However, what I really found fascinating and beneficial was how it provided visual clarification of a "meh" experience. Obviously, we cannot talk to those 16 MDMA virgins about what they experienced that day, but I found the visual representations of their experiences to line up with my own observations.

It has been hard for me to verbalize and describe the meh experience in comparison to the magic experience. Page 7 of the study really depicts everything in a clear, visual fashion, however.

For example, look at the sense of well being in the charts on page 7. You can see how the MDMA group skyrockets. However, the Duloxetine + MDMA group only minimally increases and then drops. For the feeling of openness, the Duloxetine + MDMA actually dips below the placebo/placebo group. But, you can also see from the "any drug effect" chart that pre-treatment with Duloxetine does not entirely prevent a drug like state, its just much less intense than MDMA, and starts to drop towards baseline at the 2 hour mark. 

Those of us who have taken meh product have been desperately trying to articulate all of this. These charts provide visual clarification for all of the issues that we have had a hard time verbalizing. "Well, it feels like it might take off, but then it doesn't," "It feels over in about 2 hours," or "I actually end up feeling worse than before I took it in some ways" are just poor attempts at explaining what these charts convey in a much more precise manner.

Also, I am excited that heart rate (BPM) appears to be a variable that we can track easily according to the chart on page 9. It seems that the difference should be especially notable around the 1.5 hour mark. What do you think @user666 ? A lot of people have an I-Watch, Fitbit, or something similar that could track this.


----------



## Jmoda

user666 said:


> Yes, I wrote about them in *this post*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It provides plausible answers to issues #1, #3 and to #5 because of pyrolytic disproprtionation in GC/MS ...and in case of M-ALPHA-HMCA, also to #4.
> #2 remains unknown.
> 
> P.S.
> These compounds are so much larger that even a simple column chromatography will separate them.  Also, Tosyl Chloride should (in theory) preferentially bind to M-ALPHA-HMCA so it should be possible to detect it that way or even remove it entirely.




Apologies if this was already discussed before, but do these compounds not easily filter out with say, an acetone wash?


----------



## indigoaura

Jmoda said:


> Apologies if this was already discussed before, but do these compounds not easily filter out with say, an acetone wash?



Not based on what we have observed, no. Quite a few people have tried acetone washes as well as re-crystallization. From my understanding, column chromatography is what needs to occur to separate them.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Also, I am excited that heart rate (BPM) appears to be a variable that we can track easily according to the chart on page 9. It seems that the difference should be especially notable around the 1.5 hour mark. What do you think @user666 ? A lot of people have an I-Watch, Fitbit, or something similar that could track this.


Yes, besides Epinephrine, the confidence of these physiological indicators was very high in this study (p<0.001). All of them except Epinephrine, more than doubled when under influence of MDMA *only*.  However the baselines of these physiological indicators are very individual so they would only be reliable if the same individual logged his HR (BPM), SBP, DBP with Meh MDMA and some time later with known Magic MDMA.
A baseline readings when not dosed with anything and in the same controlled environment (not excited), would be useful, too.






The blood Glucose level belongs to a different class of indicators because its increase is a very unusual event while fasting. This is in contrast to HR (BPM), SBP, DBP, MAP which can increase for many other reasons.

Anyway, it seems we are back to the same problem: acquiring MDMA-naive subjects and both kinds of MDMA.


SBP = Systolic Blood Pressure, DBP = Diastolic Blood Pressure, MAP = Mean Arterial Pressure, HR = Heart Rate (expressed in Beats per Minute [BPM] )


----------



## user666

Jmoda said:


> Apologies if this was already discussed before, but do these compounds not easily filter out with say, an acetone wash?


It is not a matter of filtering - it is a matter of different solubility in different solvents. MDMA HCl is slightly soluble in anhydrous Acetone.
The polarity of these compounds is the same as MDMA so their solubility is the same.  Tosylation has not been tried, but it has a theoretical potential to remove the HMCA.

Anyway, many people have tried Acetone washes.  These that did it with hydrous Acetone lost a lot of product and those that did it with anhydrous Acetone reported only slight improvement, e.g. better color and smell of the product due to removal of other contaminants than the one we are after.


----------



## indigoaura

> Anyway, it seems we are back to the same problem: acquiring MDMA-naive subjects and both kinds of MDMA.



I guess I am seeing it differently.

We are not researchers. We are not going to be the people to set up and orchestrate and publish a study about this.

While I see how having MDMA-naive subjects would be beneficial, I don't see that as a primary need right now.

I'm focused more on analyzing the product. I have batches of Meh, @G_Chem and others have batches of magic. If I could just find labs to work with to give us the info we need, that would be a great development.

Also beneficial, if we could develop some kind of "column chromatography for dummies" system that would allow most people to purify their product and separate impurities.

Worry about testing the theory on MDMA naive people later. If we could 1. confirm the presence of impurities, 2. figure out a way to remove those impurities, and 3. confirm that purified product regained the lost subjective effects, then we would be on very solid ground with this particular hypothesis.


----------



## topgunner19

Le Junk said:


> Yep, great coke definitely went the way of the dinosaur.  And very similar to todays MDMA story, coke of the 70's-90's was fully oxidized thus the high from it was what dreams were made out of.  Todays coke, though it still tests positive for cocaine, is not oxidized and contains 10-12 other alkaloids that alter and ruin the true cocaine high.
> 
> As with todays MDMA, the production has resulted in changes due to the lack of safrole which means MDMA thru a different synthesis.  As a result, I believe the theory of todays MDMA favoring the R isomer over the S isomer.  The result is a lackluster end product, though still MDMA compound, the high is nothing close to S isomer favored MDMA.
> 
> And the Dallas Groups product was pure MDMA, made correctly I might add ;-)


Think you are correct on pre cursors 
The soft white clumpy stuff so gentle lovey dovey  vs shards or huge moonrocks glass like that seems to grt you on a more racey buzz trip vs a loved up


----------



## AutoTripper

What makes me chuckle, or slightly angered, unless I have gotten this wrong- years back, there was this big guilt trip thrown on wordwide MDMA users- Oh, the precious Saffrole population is approaching extinction.

Solution- chop them all down! (If that's what they actually did, I havent followed this scene like most of you to be clear on any facts.)


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> I guess I am seeing it differently.


You idea has merits.



indigoaura said:


> Also beneficial, if we could develop some kind of "column chromatography for dummies" system that would allow most people to purify their product and separate impurities.


It would be difficult. Most people are not dilligent and precise enough and would not be able to handle chemicals such as pure solvents and silica gel even if you made a kit for them.
The compounds that are to be separated are transparent/invisible so they require stains (more chemicals to handle) or UV light to visualize them.  Glass blocks UV so with this method quartz needs to be used to let UV through. Quartz is more expensive than glass.

3PCircle and you seem dilligent and intelligent enough to handle it but I do not know about about your eye-hand coordination needed to maintain precise packing, dripping and a coherent solvent front.


----------



## Ketamania

indigoaura said:


> I think this thread lives to get you started.


LOL


----------



## Jmoda

topgunner19 said:


> Think you are correct on pre cursors
> The soft white clumpy stuff so gentle lovey dovey  vs shards or huge moonrocks glass like that seems to grt you on a more racey buzz trip vs a loved up




And what happens when you crush up white shards or milky moonrocks? They become soft white....i dont think powder vs rocks is really a differentiator.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> It would be difficult. Most people are not dilligent and precise enough and would not be able to handle chemicals such as pure solvents and silica gel even if you made a kit for them.
> The compounds that are to be separated are transparent/invisible so they require stains (more chemicals to handle) or UV light to visualize them.  Glass blocks UV so with this method quartz needs to be used to let UV through. Quartz is more expensive than glass.
> 
> 3PCircle and you seem dilligent and intelligent enough to handle it but I do not know about about your eye-hand coordination needed to maintain precise packing, dripping and a coherent solvent front.


I had two goes with doing a column.  First time round was a bit of a mess, but second was tidy and looked good from a method point of view.  Problem was: a) what solvent system to use and b) how to work out what fractions had what

I think normally the fractions are tested with tlc.  My most recent tlc experiments (a couple of months ago) had me switching to bigger plates.   But they had massively different rf values from the other plates I was using.  So it appeared to me that there's a huge solvent/stationary phase effect and I have no idea how that translates to running a column.  Like how do you know you're going to get good separation?

I did try using reagents to see if anything was coming out but no luck really.  I would be up for doing it again, definitely, but I just don't know how to get the solvent right and know what the output is.


----------



## indigoaura

ThreePointCircle said:


> I had two goes with doing a column.  First time round was a bit of a mess, but second was tidy and looked good from a method point of view.  Problem was: a) what solvent system to use and b) how to work out what fractions had what
> 
> I think normally the fractions are tested with tlc.  My most recent tlc experiments (a couple of months ago) had me switching to bigger plates. But they had massively different rf values from the other plates I was using.  So it appeared to me that there's a huge solvent/stationary phase effect and I have no idea how that translates to running a column.  Like how do you know you're going to get good separation?
> 
> I did try using reagents to see if anything was coming out but no luck really.  I would be up for doing it again, definitely, but I just don't know how to get the solvent right and know what the output is.



The solvent issue is the big unanswered question for me as well. I would be willing to invest the capitol to make column chromatography happen, but if I am using the wrong solvent, it is not going to be worth the investment. 

I was just reviewing your experiments on the Wiki, @ThreePointCircle. Your experiments show the separation of two compounds. I just don't know how to proceed from there. Did you ever reach out to Wedinos about analyzing the plate? Drugs Data never replied to me about that.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> I think normally the fractions are tested with tlc.  My most recent tlc experiments (a couple of months ago) had me switching to bigger plates.   But they had massively different rf values from the other plates I was using.  So it appeared to me that there's a huge solvent/stationary phase effect and I have no idea how that translates to running a column. Like how do you know you're going to get good separation?


Obviously the silica on the TLC plates has to be similar to the one in the column.
The rest is explained in *this video*.


----------



## Biscuit

Good grief finally some sanity.

Thank you indigo for resurrecting the article regarding the inhibiting dimer impurities, which if in enough concentrations could very well turn a magic experience into meh.

Anyway this article is essential reading so I’m reposting the link - https://zero.sci-hub.tw/2640/a20cf55121d0f8686e4c6ab1cdb88b65/pifl2005.pdf

I tried to post about this a few weeks ago but it went nowhere and my hypothesis relating to this issue was lost in the wash as no one could remember where the article was in the 280 pages etc.

At the outset, this article refers to the two dimers 12 and 13 being produced from the Leuckhart reaction, however, the article is also from 2005 and long before PMK glycidate and our problem came along. The other thing to note is that dimers of this nature would come in a large number of different molecular variations depending on the manufacturing steps and reagents used and for all we know similar but far more potent inhibitory compounds might result if modern day reagents are used.

I have reposted my post about this below but in short, forget about the Leuckhart, because I think you’ll find that since 2012 this article may have far more relevance to MDMA production that extends well beyond the Leuckhart. Further, the “limiting reagent in the reductive amination” crap I was banging on about is actually irrelevant as the critical diarylacetone molecule is actually created earlier; this being the part I couldn’t remember without the article. (I do completely understand why I was challenged on that aspect of what said, which regardless of who is right, doesn’t effect the point below.)

ANYWAY....

Have a look at Figure 2 at top of page 348, which starts with the MD equivalent of phenylacetic acid, which when reacted with acetic anhydride in sodium acetate produces MD-P2P but this side reaction occurs, where two molecules get stuck together and we effectively have a PMK dimer. This molecule then produces 12 and 13 if put through a Leuckhart amination, although a normal reductive amination should still produce something similar at the end of the day.

Well what happens with PMK glycidate and it’s various incarnations when it is hydrolysed in an attempt to get PMK? What’s produced? What else is produced? What factors might favour the production of certain molecules as opposed to others. Does anyone actually even know? Where are the reaction mechanism diagrams for this method, coz I haven’t found any?!

Well some clever person should spend some time on it because the sort of products you might get as well as PMK are MD-phenyl acetic acid, acetate ions and maybe even something approaching the reactive part of an acetic anhydride molecule. Which all adds up to potentially large amounts of diarylacetone byproducts being made with the PMK and which sloppy technique wouldn’t remove or bother with.

Throw in the talk of this one pot reductive amination with either methylamine or nitromethane and one might end up with all sorts of molecules looking an awful lot like 12 and 13 if not those same ones as well. And because PMK glycidate comes in several forms, this could increase the extent (in both quantity and variety) to which this might occur; from batch to batch, and from one level of Meh factor to an even greater level of Meh factor if you will.

PMK from safrole and which was then turned to MDMA via a non Leuckart reduction would not have this problem. I honestly believe PMK from the glycidate especially without care and purification might produce these sorts of compounds as good as any route the scientists have commented on.

These compounds could be detected by government Laboratories if they were looking for them but they would only do that in a particular case to match batches with other batches. However, researchers of this calibre could certainly analyze samples and provide this level of detail if asked and no doubt paid for.

I Really believe this or something close to it must be the answer and I invite anyone to tell me I’m talking nonsense and why that is so.



> www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14929097
> 
> Aug 21, 2020
> There is no doubt in my mind there is a difference. (You nailed it HerpDerpMcDerp; and welcome to Bluelight.)
> 
> I’ve been taking MDMA pills and MDMA powder/crystal for 21 years now and after almost giving up, two months ago I had my night rocked by a 120mg dose of the most luscious, munty (of the more cheeky/naughty kind), and long lasting (with God forbid actual afterglow), MDMA crystal in many years. I was on night two as well, having used meth all day prior. Had I been younger, on night #1 and just generally less trashed, this stuff would have been the magic that I remembered from years ago, magic that I have barely encountered in Australia for more than ten years.
> 
> After earlier championing the SvsR isomer issue, I am now positive the answer to this entire issue is contained in the article indigoaura posted many pages ago, where very small quantities of two structurally similar dimers created as impurities during MDMA manufacture, could cause significant inhibition of the MDMA effects at comparatively very low amounts by binding to the neurotransmitter reuptake transporters, much like how for prescription SSRIs and SNRIs nullify the effects of MDMA into something resembling “Meh” in those people taking these drugs. (Didn’t one of the dimers show ridiculously strong affinity to ALL THREE of the significant transporters, the noradrenaline, the dopamine AND the serotonin?! A higher presence of such a chemical in a substance purporting to be “pure MDMA” is going to completely fuck up the roll and will need a much greater dose to get anywhere close to something resembling a roll.)
> 
> Whilst I would like to put together a much more thought out, well researched and diagrammatically useful post, as I have been false starting on this endeavour for months now, I thought it better to put something out there for discussion without any further delay.
> 
> It is clear that PMK glycidate could favour the creation of these dimers, especially if the PMK is not properly purified. I mean what is created when the glycidate molecule is hydrolysed, acetic acid or acetate perhaps, the very reactant which they list in one of the initial steps that gives rise to these dimers.
> 
> The other matter of significance is that of what the limiting reagent is in the reductive animation step of PMK and methylamine Into MDMA. This reaction always ideally proceeds with a significant excess of methylamine to PMK, for if there is no excess, the formation of these dimers or molecules like them is much more likely to occur.
> 
> In the old days, as it was safrole/isosafrole and the PMK produced from these that was in the shortest supply, there would never have been any question about having an excess of methylamine to this highly sought after and almost impossible to obtain precursor. However, we know now that PMK glycidates are widely available in massive quantities and so PMK is no longer going to be the limiting reagent in the reductive amination. Instead, not only might manufacturers fail to properly purify the PMK or otherwise proceed via one-pot synth straight to MDMA with potentially highly reactive hydrolysis products from the glycidate (with certain PMK glycidates being worse than others for creating such dimers, this being a further reading for different levels of “meh”), but they may be skimping on the methylamine in the reaction as well, such that there is now an undue excess of PMK made from glycidate relative to the methylamine, a factor which would strongly favour the creation of these inhibiting dimers to a much greater degree. Throw in the fact that platinum catalyst hydrogenation is now almost always used to reduce the imine as opposed to borohydride, and it’s anyone’s guess as to what mess we actually end up with.
> 
> The above hypothesis would account for why there are varying degrees of Meh (being the extent to which the MDMA does or does not have the presence of such impurities, a fact which the right laboratory could actually
> test for), why safrole produced MDMA doesn’t create this problem to the same degree, and why the change to the almost infinitely available glycidate pre-precursor may have skewed the reaction in the wrong direction on account of commercial considerations (despite the news now of stupidly high dosages of this crappy
> MDMA).
> 
> As an aside, for a long time high purity racemic methamphetamine produced from p2p has received similarly poor user reports along the lines mehMDMA despite being >90% purity - “mehMeth” if you will. And where is this P2P coming from but BMK glycidates, the PMK glycidate equivalents. Precisely the same reaction considerations to what I have described above for MDMA would apply for methamphetamine produced via this route and where the more readily available precursor might also be present in relative excess to the methylamine needed
> for the reductive amination. If similar dimers
> were produced (and I’ll find an article I have saved confirming this very thing), then these too would likely inhibit the action of the meth in similar ways.
> 
> Sorry that this post is so garbled but the earlier discussion about this and articles i refer to are buried somewhere a hundred pages or so ago. As this thought has otherwise been bubbling uselessly away in my mind for more than six months now, best I just get it down and hope that the more cleverer chemists and those more familiar with the invaluable content in these almost 300 pages, could give it further consideration


----------



## user666

Biscuit said:


> Well what happens with PMK glycidate and it’s various incarnations when it is hydrolysed? What’s produced? Does anyone actually know?


Yes, the conversion of PMK Glycidate to PMK does not have to be 100% efficient, which can leave PMK Glycidate in the mixture. 
If this unreacted precursor is not removed completely by the subsequent workup, it can get amidated and its epoxy ring can be opened by subsequent reaction with Methylamine, generating M-ALPHA-HMCA as a contaminant.






See:


			Sci-Hub |  | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2020.110332


----------



## Biscuit

Thank you. But what is the other part of the glycidate molecule that’s broken off to
Leave PMK behind? Is it Acetate ion/acetic acid? And does PMK glycidate always hydrolyze in the same way or might different bonds be broken leaving a bit of
MD phenylacetic acid? There seem to be a
Lot of variables especially as we have chiral centres in play and Methyl ethyl and other types of glycidates.

This is an interesting article as well, which shows a lot is being done on these compounds at the moment:

“Identification of specific markers for amphetamines synthesized from glycidic acid pre‐precursors and retrospective search in German profiling database“

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/dta.2686


----------



## user666

Biscuit said:


> But what is the *other part* of the glycidate molecule that’s broken off to


Could you mark that "other part" in red ?


----------



## Biscuit

Can you name the products? Looking messy to me. PMK, maybe MD PAA, acetate, that epoxide isn’t going to last.

I’m just hoping for clarity on glycidate hydrolysis —> PMK + ? + ?

What do you say the substance on the right is please?

I think it’s far more complex and inexact than the producers understand. Take this excerpt from book here, at bottom of first page, would be great to get the whole article...

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jo00832a021


----------



## Negi

Sci-hub for life: https://sci-hub.tw/10.1021/jo00832a021

Just slap the DOI on the end of the domain and it works ~90% of the time.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> Obviously the silica on the TLC plates has to be similar to the one in the column.


Which isn't that easy.  I was using pure silica in the column (wow that's expensive stuff btw), but the plates have the indicator and binders added.  Tbf, the first set of plates had a hard layer with their binders, but my new bigger plates have a soft binder so maybe they are more similar.

I know the procedure is to then test all the fractions afterwards on tlc but I'm wondering how many column volumns to do and size of test tubes for fractions etc...  I guess its about sitting down and doing the 1/rf but that assumes the plate and the column behave in a similar fashion.

BTW, thanks for the video link.  I had found that once before and was looking for it.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

indigoaura said:


> I was just reviewing your experiments on the Wiki, @ThreePointCircle. Your experiments show the separation of two compounds. I just don't know how to proceed from there. Did you ever reach out to Wedinos about analyzing the plate? Drugs Data never replied to me about that.



I got bigger plates with the hope of getting a better separation and then approaching Wedinos.  I've ran one with the same system but the rf was radically different (like 0.95 instead of 0.45 or whatever it was before).  The bigger plates don't have a hard layer and are behaving very differently.  So basically need to go back to playing with systems and everything, which probably means ordering some more solvents.  I just haven't got round to it yet.


----------



## Le Junk

fasterfb said:


> Well maybe that's true for you, but I guarantee that it isn't the case for everybody. Not 99.5% of your eyeball lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a lot of these dilated pupil photos are pretty representative of how much pupil dilation that I get now with good MDMA, and got back in the 70's, 80's and 90's.



Actually it’s not just true for me, it’s true for everyone. From 1985 until 2009, absolutely every single person I ever rolled with (and that would be in the hundreds to thousands) had completely dilated pupils. It was just common knowledge of anyone that rolled that their pupils would be completely dilated. It was never taken into question. The only time someone’s pupils didn’t dilate completely would be if they got a pill laced with meth or pipes etc. And yes, 90% or better of the pupil would completely consumed the eye color. Just like the capsules I still have and have gotten since the 1980’s. And I only take 120 mg’s initially followed by another 50 mgs an hour and a half after my initial dose. And that amount still absolutely floors me with love and empathy and cuddles and touch and feel and eye wiggles and so on. It never fails. Ever.


----------



## Le Junk

Negi said:


> Do those photos match the pupil dilation you expect though? Also I thought increasing the dose of mehDMA had no effect?



Yes, one photo in particular. I will try and attach that picture for you. The best way to describe it would be that It’s the same exact dilation you get when you go to the eye doctor and have your pupils dilated. It’s exactly the same as that. Hope that helps. And with real old-school MDMA, you can do your initial dose of 120 mg followed exactly an hour and a half later by 1/3 to 1/2 of that initial dose. And that amount will have you absolutely floored with so much love and empathy and touch and feel and cuddles and incredible sex for about 4-5 hours. Any attempted third dose will come across as just kind of sketchy with no more love and empathy. Actually, now that I think about it, modern day MDMA is just like the third dose of old school MDMA. Dammit, I think I just nailed it! That is about the best description I can give for modern day MDMA. It’s like the third and useless dose of old-school MDMA. And there you have it. I may actually add that description to my original post.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Le Junk said:


> Actually it’s not just true for me, it’s true for everyone. From 1985 until 2009, absolutely every single person I ever rolled with (and that would be in the hundreds to thousands) had completely dilated pupils. It was just common knowledge of anyone that rolled that their pupils would be completely dilated. It was never taken into question. The only time someone’s pupils didn’t dilate completely would be if they got a pill laced with meth or pipes etc. And yes, 90% or better of the pupil would completely consumed the eye color. Just like the capsules I still have and have gotten since the 1980’s. And I only take 120 mg’s initially followed by another 50 mgs an hour and a half after my initial dose. And that amount still absolutely floors me with love and empathy and cuddles and touch and feel and eye wiggles and so on. It never fails. Ever.


i still get completly black dilated pupils on modern mdma just like the old days. I guess most americans that aint living on the coast are getting very cut and not dutch mdma.


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> i still get completly black dilated pupils on modern mdma just like the old days. I guess most americans that aint living on the coast are getting very cut and not dutch mdma.



TripSitterNZ, you always seem vaguely offended that other people are having a shitty time. Just because a lot of people are dealing with bullshit, that doesn't mean you are. There are so many people that have come through this thread and seemed almost mad at the implication that there is shitty MDMA out there. If the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear it. Count yourself as lucky and stockpile the good stuff just in case the bad stuff comes to your area.

...and lab results are not showing that it is "cut" in the traditional sense. This isn't like the cocaine that comes up into the USA from Mexico and just gets stepped on over and over with various cuts.


----------



## indigoaura

@Le Junk When are you going to throw a party for science?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> TripSitterNZ, you always seem vaguely offended that other people are having a shitty time. Just because a lot of people are dealing with bullshit, that doesn't mean you are. There are so many people that have come through this thread and seemed almost mad at the implication that there is shitty MDMA out there. If the shoe doesn't fit, then don't wear it. Count yourself as lucky and stockpile the good stuff just in case the bad stuff comes to your area.
> 
> ...and lab results are not showing that it is "cut" in the traditional sense. This isn't like the cocaine that comes up into the USA from Mexico and just gets stepped on over and over with various cuts.


im not getting offended im correcting idiots who claim that all mdma after 2010 is not the same or magic. it seems to be americans getting offended that there dealers lied to them about their mdma been dutch. Because dutch mdma has never changed for me.


----------



## indigoaura

TripSitterNZ said:


> im not getting offended im correcting idiots who claim that all mdma after 2010 is not the same or magic. it seems to be americans getting offended that there dealers lied to them about their mdma been dutch. Because dutch mdma has never changed for me.





Is it really necessary to call other people idiots?

Look man, I 100% accept that you get excellent product, and I believe you when you say it is Dutch. 

What I don't understand is why you are so defensive of every product coming out of the Netherlands. 

You cannot know with total certainty what is being exported/imported all over the world, or where it does or does not come from. To not acknowledge the possibility for regional variations, or differences in regional imports seems silly.

Just because it has never changed for you does not mean that it has never changed for other people. 

You can have excellent MDMA and someone else can have shit MDMA, and both of those things are possible at the same time.


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> I was using pure silica in the column (wow that's expensive stuff btw),


I have seen it for $10/kg and for $1000/kg.  You can find good deals by asking around on thevespiary.org



ThreePointCircle said:


> So basically need to go back to playing with systems and everything, which probably means ordering some more solvents.


Why not try the system used in the *Lee paper* ?
I think it was Distilled water ( A, 90% ) and Acetonitrile ( B, 10% ), both containing 0.1% formic acid (v/v).


----------



## indigoaura

Here is an odd thought...

If the issue is impurities that block monoamine transporters, then how would genetic MAOI variations connect to that?

Would it be plausible for someone who already had a lower number of those transporters to be more impacted by the presence of the impurities? 

Could such a percent end up with a total blockage of all transporters while another person may only experience a partial blockage of some transporters from that same impurity?


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Could such a percent end up with a total blockage of all transporters while another person may only experience a partial blockage of some transporters from that same impurity?


IMO - yes.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> IMO - yes.



The reason I ask is that I know that I have a double mutation for MAO A R297R. I have the TT mutation as opposed to GG. 

Not sure if that would relate to transporters or not, but I know I have a lower than average concentration of MAO. At least, that is my impression from reading about it.  This is the ill-famed "warrior gene."


----------



## fasterfb

Le Junk said:


> And yes, 90% or better of the pupil would completely consumed the eye color.



Ok, well in your OP, you stated 99.5% dilation. That's a big difference from 90%.
There's always going to be a rim of color around the pupil.

Negi said:
_Do those photos match the pupil dilation you expect though?_


Le Junk said:


> Yes, one photo in particular.



Ok, then we're in agreement as to the degree of pupil dilation with good MDMA. I was just disagreeing with the "99.5%" number.

And yes, the magic stuff is still being manufactured and is available to this day.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> I have seen it for $10/kg and for $1000/kg.  You can find good deals by asking around on thevespiary.org


Thanks for the info.  I've had to buy a load of it so I'm good.  Possibly a UK thing, plus some suppliers want proof of commercial use.



user666 said:


> Why not try the system used in the *Lee paper* ?
> I think it was Distilled water ( A, 90% )and Acetonitrile ( B, 10% ), both containing 0.1% formic acid (v/v).


I don't currently have any acetrontrile and I think that paper was doing more advanced chromatography (don't know if that's relevant).  I was planning on working out a system on my bigger, non-hard tlc plates and using that.


----------



## Le Junk

indigoaura said:


> @Le Junk When are you going to throw a party for science?



Lol you have no idea how many times I think about doing just that bro. Mostly for the skeptics and the new kids to open their eyes to the fucking truth. And we could finally put an end to that ridiculous set and setting debate. You never know I might just surprise you one day. You’d be one of the first to know of course


----------



## Le Junk

fasterfb said:


> Ok, well in your OP, you stated 99.5% dilation. That's a big difference from 90%.
> There's always going to be a rim of color around the pupil.
> 
> Negi said:
> _Do those photos match the pupil dilation you expect though?_
> 
> 
> Ok, then we're in agreement as to the degree of pupil dilation with good MDMA. I was just disagreeing with the "99.5%" number.
> 
> And yes, the magic stuff is still being manufactured and is available to this day.



Agreed. I was being dramatic with a 99.5% reference but I think we can both agree the 90% is a very accurate number. What is your general location? Because I haven’t heard of anyone in the states having old school at all anymore.


----------



## indigoaura

Le Junk said:


> Agreed. I was being dramatic with a 99.5% reference but I think we can both agree the 90% is a very accurate number. What is your general location? Because I haven’t heard of anyone in the states having old school at all anymore.



@G_Chem seems to get it reliably as well. From what I recall of this thread, the southern USA people do not have a lot of luck, but I have seen good reports here and there from far west and northern US.


----------



## indigoaura

I may be able to create a map poll where people could drop a red or blue pin onto a map to indicate their general location and whether they feel that they encounter magic or meh. I know the tool exists, I would just need to set it up so it did not collect anyone's info.


----------



## Negi

I would recommend marking out two sections of Antarctica where people can indicate if they are getting meh or magic from DNMs.


----------



## G_Chem

People forget there’s a third Coast in the US that’s got the goods  And it’s fire Canadian or Domestic product.

I’d actually argue the “coasts” suck in comparison but I’ve got some hometown pride.. So maybe bias.



Negi said:


> I would recommend marking out two sections of Antarctica where people can indicate if they are getting meh or magic from DNMs.



Hilarious...

It should be noted that the two places @psy997  has gotten magic product both happen to be places I live/d.  Maybe it’s all coincidence.

-GC


----------



## fasterfb

Le Junk said:


> Agreed. I was being dramatic with a 99.5% reference but I think we can both agree the 90% is a very accurate number.



Yes, agreed! 



Le Junk said:


> What is your general location? Because I haven’t heard of anyone in the states having old school at all anymore.



I live on the west coast of Canada 



Le Junk said:


> The MDMA I get from him is an extremely fine bleach white crystalline powder that is fluffy and lays just like snow.



This matches the description.


----------



## indigoaura

Ok, for those who are finding magic product in North America. Let's get a visual of this...






						PollEv
					

This is the place to be if you're trying to participate in a live poll




					pollev.com
				




You do not have to create a user name unless you want to. 

Please only indicate where you have found traditional, effective, magical MDMA.


----------



## psy997

indigoaura said:


> Ok, for those who are finding magic product in North America. Let's get a visual of this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PollEv
> 
> 
> This is the place to be if you're trying to participate in a live poll
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pollev.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do not have to create a user name unless you want to.
> 
> Please only indicate where you have found traditional, effective, magical MDMA.



Anyway to allow it to accept more than one response from people?


----------



## Jmoda

G_Chem said:


> People forget there’s a third Coast in the US that’s got the goods  And it’s fire Canadian or Domestic product.
> 
> I’d actually argue the “coasts” suck in comparison but I’ve got some hometown pride.. So maybe bias.
> 
> 
> 
> Hilarious...
> 
> It should be noted that the two places @psy997  has gotten magic product both happen to be places I live/d.  Maybe it’s all coincidence.
> 
> -GC




Interestingly, all canadian product i've gotten has been subpar through the darkwebs even when well reviewed. Maybe just bad luck, idk


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Jmoda said:


> Interestingly, all canadian product i've gotten has been subpar through the darkwebs even when well reviewed. Maybe just bad luck, idk


I tried Canada a couple of times for MDA because it wasn't available on the markets I was looking at in Europe.  Always mehDA


----------



## G_Chem

Interesting...

Idk I personally don’t trust DNMs and have never used them, maybe that’s the difference?

If you notice everyone who claims getting magic product still seems to hang in a scene which use is prevalent and there’s connections within.

There’s also a good chance my area has a decent domestic production.  During the drought in 09-10 we were the only ones besides SoCal and their Mexican Pokeballs getting legit MDMA, not only legit MDMA but of amazing quality.  Even at the roughest of times we do alright here.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> If you notice everyone who claims getting magic product still seems to hang in a scene which use is prevalent and there’s connections within.


Yes I spotted that too.  The problem is I basically have zero connections so DNMs are the only way.  Don't know how I managed to get stuff in my youth, must have been blind ignorance haha.

It is odd though that the good local supply appears to never reach the DNMs (at least in UK/Europe).


----------



## G_Chem

ThreePointCircle said:


> Yes I spotted that too.  The problem is I basically have zero connections so DNMs are the only way.  Don't know how I managed to get stuff in my youth, must have been blind ignorance haha.
> 
> It is odd though that the good local supply appears to never reach the DNMs (at least in UK/Europe).



Right? I think we all would have originally thought the opposite.  My best guess relates to supply and simply not having enough, combined with the fact many older folks don’t know how to DN safely or don’t want to change their ways.  This might change with time though.

On top of that, it’s hard to charge more for good product on DN when there’s 20 other people two second scroll down with cheaper stuff.  Easier for a high quality product to be moved in a network of trusted individuals that know that extra they’re paying is worth it.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Regarding the pupil dilation issue, these are my eyes on well over 200mg of MehDMA.

Not exactly looking 'bright eyed and bushy tailed' am I?


----------



## Chonciceptor

This is exactly what mine and my wife’s eyes looked like every time we used mehdma. Le Junk speaks the truth. Until mehdma started surfacing, I have not once, not ever seen anyone roll without their pupils being the size of god damn quarters! Not literal of course, but almost zero to zero irises whatsoever! I absolutely believe there is a connection. As previously stated, I started using in the mid to late 90’s, and without a shadow of doubt, ever experienced what mehdma is offering now, total crap!


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> Right? I think we all would have originally thought the opposite.  My best guess relates to supply and simply not having enough, combined with the fact many older folks don’t know how to DN safely or don’t want to change their ways.  This might change with time though.
> 
> On top of that, it’s hard to charge more for good product on DN when there’s 20 other people two second scroll down with cheaper stuff.  Easier for a high quality product to be moved in a network of trusted individuals that know that extra they’re paying is worth it.
> 
> -GC


This makes the most sense.  But oh the premium I would pay for magic.  I wonder how many are aware and would do the same


----------



## user666

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Regarding the pupil dilation issue, these are my eyes on well over 200mg of MehDMA.
> 
> Not exactly looking 'bright eyed and bushy tailed' am I?


Yes, that is not full pupil dilation.
Full Mydriasis looks like this:






In the photo above, when you divide the Inner Diameter (I.D.) by the Outer Diameter (O.D.), you get 0.823






However, when you divide the Inner Diameter (I.D.) by the Outer Diameter (O.D.) in your eye, you get 0.455, ...which is much less than the full Mydriasis depicted in the first photo.

People who do not want to post photos of their eyes publicly (which I understand), should at least post the I.D. divided by the O.D.
In the examples above, I made these measurements in the vertical and horizontal directions so it is easier to understand, but to be more accurate both of these measurements should be made in the horizontal direction, in order to make them immune to any optical distortions.

Such measurements would constitute quantifiable data if the ambient lighting conditions were controlled for.  Practically, that would mean standing in front of your illuminated shaving/makeup mirror for 3min, before taking the photo ...and if you used a luxmeter, that would be a cherry on top.


----------



## indigoaura

Most recent event (tried to make the pic a bit more anonymous, but the pupils themselves have been altered in no way).
140 mg + 104 mg + 90 mg
Minimal dilation is there, but it is not what used to happen to my pupils. I will try to dig up an old pic out of my closet for comparison.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Most recent event (tried to make the pic a bit more anonymous, but the pupils themselves have been altered in no way).


Your right pupil dilation calculates to 0.491 using the all-horizontal measurements.
What were the lighting conditions in the last 3min ?


----------



## G_Chem

Does MDMA make you tired/yawn? from
      MDMA

A recent reddit post...

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Your right pupil dilation calculates to 0.491 using the all-horizontal measurements.
> What were the lighting conditions in the last 3min ?



Indoor overhead lighting.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> A recent reddit post...


He got an advice to take a brisk walk to get his energy up 

I don't have a Reddit account (nor any other social media) but maybe if you could post two pictures of dilated pupils there, similar to the ones I did, contrasting the full Mydriasis with a partial one, and try to make an association in these simple minds that:  Big pupils = Good MDMA  and  Small pupils = Bad MDMA ...i.e. they got ripped off.
You can offer to calculate the dilation ratio for them, so these people have an incentive to pay attention to their pupils and post their photos.  I will do the measurements and calculation for them if you point me to the photos.

If you do it, don't forget to tell them to stand in front of an illuminated shaving/makeup mirror for 3min before taking the photo, so we get uncontaminated data.  I learned from the interior-design professionals, that the illuminance level which people need to shave and put on makeup well is surprisingly consistent.
Knowing the  body mass, biological sex, dose, ROI/stomach contents, past MDMA and other drug use, would be an additional bonus.


----------



## DonLearnsWhy

The MDMA today is not nearly as pure as the one you discribed. I have never seen white MDMA crystals. Which would mean it was purified and recrystallized and truly preformed very well.

MDMA today is made by chemist with either not enough knowhow or the access to the proper equipment to make such a pure compund. The result is brown or even black MDMA crystals. They will produce an MDMA high but they also carry unwanted chemicals in it, thus making it have color.

Colored MDMA means it is not pure. Good tip is the less color the better the high and less of a hangover. Maybe that is why pressed pills are all colored? So you don't know how bad it is...


----------



## user666

DonLearnsWhy said:


> Colored MDMA means it is not pure.


Uncolored impurities exist, too.
Actually, majority of them do not have a chromophore.


----------



## DonLearnsWhy

user666 said:


> Uncolored impurities exist, too.
> Actually, majority of them do not have a chromophore.


True. But if it was purified and recrystallized it would have a smaller chance of being in there.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Plenty of white mdma out there. My plug had his mdma tested at 98% this year by EC they buy in kg amounts. But i also seen other people with black mdma which looks nasty and overcooked and tests low on purity under 70%.


----------



## indigoaura

Just from my experience...

I have had snow white MDMA that was meh. I have had brown MDMA that was meh. I had one batch of brown sassy MDMA in 2013 that was more magic than meh. The color indicates whether it has or hasn't been washed/purified, but even if it HAS been purified, sometimes it is still meh. The acetone wash doesn't remove the type of impurity that is most likely at play.


----------



## indigoaura

Chonciceptor said:


> This is exactly what mine and my wife’s eyes looked like every time we used mehdma. Le Junk speaks the truth. Until mehdma started surfacing, I have not once, not ever seen anyone roll without their pupils being the size of god damn quarters! Not literal of course, but almost zero to zero irises whatsoever! I absolutely believe there is a connection. As previously stated, I started using in the mid to late 90’s, and without a shadow of doubt, ever experienced what mehdma is offering now, total crap!



I feel like the two of you have a really strong story to tell. You have a lengthy past history of use, but your wife does NOT. The fact that both of you, at the same time, and at the point that you changed vendors, experienced the same dramatic drop of in effects is pretty strong evidence. She would not have the same tolerance as you. If it was a tolerance issue, you should have stopped feeling the effects and not her. But instead, you both suddenly stopped getting dilated pupils and stopped experiencing the full effects.


----------



## Biscuit

^ KABOOM!! Home run Indigo!

Also the power of the pupil illustration is undeniable. The two vastly different pupil states accords precisely with my experiences of magic MDMA going back to the late 90s and mehDMA as the norm more recently. Whenever I see my pupils hitting those heights I know it’s game on in no time.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> The acetone wash doesn't remove the type of impurity that is most likely at play.


I think so, too.  IMO only chromatography can remove this one because its solubility in the common solvents is identical to MDMA's.
However, Acetone wash or DiethyEther wash might remove other unhealthy contaminants.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

For people who get meh mdma if it was possible for you to get bk-mdma and see how that affects you if your missing that speedy aspect of the mdma. Just seen some pop up here and some people are saying they love it more than mdma since its so tweaky at 200 mg but mdma more loving and europhic.


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> For people who get meh mdma if it was possible for you to get bk-MDMA and see how that affects you if your missing that speedy aspect of the MDMA. Just seen some pop up here...


Allegedly, βk-MDMA (a.k.a. Methylone or MDMC) can be converted to MDMA with *Hydrazine Sulphate* in *Wolff-Kishner* reaction.


----------



## G_Chem

I never took too large of doses of it, but yea I kinda miss me some methylone.  It was truly MDMA-lite at 100mg perfect for a random Thurs night out where you didn’t want to get blasted but still a little rolly.  Definitely not a substitute for the real thing but nice nonetheless.

I do recall some folks in this thread saying bk-MD had better effects than meh for them.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

i use to do bk back a few years ago but i much prefer mdma, but i would say it was always way more speedy than mdma but required alot of redosing. I wonder what it would be like to mix it with mdma?. 

In holland they do make some mdma with that method user666 alot of bmk has been seized


----------



## G_Chem

I did mix them one time, can’t remember much other than to say it was one hell of night 

Got to my friends and he sadly looks at me and is like “sorry man all I could get was methylone, here have a gram for free.”

So I was doing the night sniffing this methylone and it was fun and all but a few hours in he comes to me all happy and gives me a yellow blank mint (at the time a good domestic MDMA press).  I took only half and was FLYING.  Must’ve only been 50-60mg MDxx.

It was like I got to have two experiences in one.  I doubt you could do it the other way around, anything after the MDMA will be a waste.

-GC


----------



## psy997

TripSitterNZ said:


> For people who get meh mdma if it was possible for you to get bk-mdma and see how that affects you if your missing that speedy aspect of the mdma. Just seen some pop up here and some people are saying they love it more than mdma since its so tweaky at 200 mg but mdma more loving and europhic.



Methylone is 10x better than MehDMA for me. I love Methylone compared to MehDMA.

MehDMA is not Meh because it's missing speediness.



TripSitterNZ said:


> I wonder what it would be like to mix it with mdma?.



I've mixed Methylone and MDMA before. It was one of the best rolls I've ever had, actually. I can't quite remember the dosage but I think it was something like 75-100mg Methylone and 75-90mg MDMA. I dosed both at the same time. That night I went on and on for an hour or two about feeling like my body was plugged into 1,000 volts of electricity. It was, obviously, absolutely electric.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

i wonder if mixing methylone with meh would bring any magic back or be trash?. Methylone here is cheaper than mdma idk how hard is it find in america or wherever people live. 

I use to do methylone mutiple days in a row clubbing on a wenesday night thursday night friday night since it was so cheap.


----------



## G_Chem

I haven’t seen of it or heard of it in ages.  Honestly RC’s of all kinds really are shunned upon where I’m from, sad too cuz some of them can be really good.  I wish I had good access to APB’s again but we can’t have it all 

-GC


----------



## psy997

I haven't heard of Methylone here in the states since 2016, maybe even 2015.

Testing it with Meh would be a great experiment, though.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

I did a thorough browse of a few of the markets last night and this idea started forming in my head.  What if there's only a small handful (or even one?) of dutch producers that are supplying everyone on the market?

My reason for saying this:
1) The listings are very homogeneous.  'Absolute purist dutch fire', 'Best from Holland', etc...  And that's not just Europe, that's a lot of US vendors as well.  The product (I'm looking at crystal but you could say the same for the pills of course) looks like the same few options - champagne, purple, etc..., that each look like the next.
2) I haven't counted but there's not many vendors.  It's very easy to browse through a market's entire listings and there aren't that many active markets.  And each vendor has multiple size listings that bulk up the number of listings.
3) The listing text doesn't inspire the feeling that the vendors know their products.  Some copy and paste something about xtc they found on the internet, but they look like resellers who are just doing the minimum admin.
4) When a listing does stand out, like they say something like from sassafras, I'm thinking that's just some better googling (and I have tried and it's still meh).  Also, the only profile like that at the moment was from a new vendor with no reviews and who also had another listing for dutch import so looked suspicious
5) Some explicitly say they are resellers

At one point on the DW I did come across a supplier that set up a site for resellers to contact them, and their name does appear in a couple of places.  I'm wondering if its literally a case of one or a few mega producers setting up a service to resellers and that's basically everything you see on the DW.  Therefore, it would only need these few producers to cut corners in the method for meh to be so widespread.

It blows my mind that this could possibly the case - I would have thought decent suppliers could carve out a niche and clean up, but the more I think about what I'm seeing there, the more it makes sense.


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

ThreePointCircle said:


> I did a thorough browse of a few of the markets last night and this idea started forming in my head.  What if there's only a small handful (or even one?) of dutch producers that are supplying everyone on the market?



This is true for most everything now that can't be produced locally. Most every big local seller is just reselling something from the markets. Most people talking about "family connections" are full of shit. If it isn't mushrooms, DMT, or cannabis then 9 times out of 10 it's the same thing you can get from the markets yourself.


----------



## Jmoda

ThreePointCircle said:


> I did a thorough browse of a few of the markets last night and this idea started forming in my head.  What if there's only a small handful (or even one?) of dutch producers that are supplying everyone on the market?
> 
> My reason for saying this:
> 1) The listings are very homogeneous.  'Absolute purist dutch fire', 'Best from Holland', etc...  And that's not just Europe, that's a lot of US vendors as well.  The product (I'm looking at crystal but you could say the same for the pills of course) looks like the same few options - champagne, purple, etc..., that each look like the next.
> 2) I haven't counted but there's not many vendors.  It's very easy to browse through a market's entire listings and there aren't that many active markets.  And each vendor has multiple size listings that bulk up the number of listings.
> 3) The listing text doesn't inspire the feeling that the vendors know their products.  Some copy and paste something about xtc they found on the internet, but they look like resellers who are just doing the minimum admin.
> 4) When a listing does stand out, like they say something like from sassafras, I'm thinking that's just some better googling (and I have tried and it's still meh).  Also, the only profile like that at the moment was from a new vendor with no reviews and who also had another listing for dutch import so looked suspicious
> 5) Some explicitly say they are resellers
> 
> At one point on the DW I did come across a supplier that set up a site for resellers to contact them, and their name does appear in a couple of places.  I'm wondering if its literally a case of one or a few mega producers setting up a service to resellers and that's basically everything you see on the DW.  Therefore, it would only need these few producers to cut corners in the method for meh to be so widespread.
> 
> It blows my mind that this could possibly the case - I would have thought decent suppliers could carve out a niche and clean up, but the more I think about what I'm seeing there, the more it makes sense.




I'm sorry, but there is no way there is only one mass producer that is purposefully producing all different varieties of colors and purities and impurities. Will alot of the same vendors have the same source? Yes, undoubtedly, but to insinuate some sort of MDMA New World Order seems a bit of a stretch

Listings become homogeneous because there are certain buzzwords customers like to see. If one vendor sees another selling well, they'll copy the wording. I dont think this is just true of DNM MDMA, you will find similar phenomena with all types of goods. Even in the clearnet world....descriptions for product are going to be similar.....


----------



## indigoaura

ThreePointCircle said:


> I did a thorough browse of a few of the markets last night and this idea started forming in my head.  What if there's only a small handful (or even one?) of dutch producers that are supplying everyone on the market?
> 
> My reason for saying this:
> 1) The listings are very homogeneous.  'Absolute purist dutch fire', 'Best from Holland', etc...  And that's not just Europe, that's a lot of US vendors as well.  The product (I'm looking at crystal but you could say the same for the pills of course) looks like the same few options - champagne, purple, etc..., that each look like the next.
> 2) I haven't counted but there's not many vendors.  It's very easy to browse through a market's entire listings and there aren't that many active markets.  And each vendor has multiple size listings that bulk up the number of listings.
> 3) The listing text doesn't inspire the feeling that the vendors know their products.  Some copy and paste something about xtc they found on the internet, but they look like resellers who are just doing the minimum admin.
> 4) When a listing does stand out, like they say something like from sassafras, I'm thinking that's just some better googling (and I have tried and it's still meh).  Also, the only profile like that at the moment was from a new vendor with no reviews and who also had another listing for dutch import so looked suspicious
> 5) Some explicitly say they are resellers
> 
> At one point on the DW I did come across a supplier that set up a site for resellers to contact them, and their name does appear in a couple of places.  I'm wondering if its literally a case of one or a few mega producers setting up a service to resellers and that's basically everything you see on the DW.  Therefore, it would only need these few producers to cut corners in the method for meh to be so widespread.
> 
> It blows my mind that this could possibly the case - I would have thought decent suppliers could carve out a niche and clean up, but the more I think about what I'm seeing there, the more it makes sense.



All good observations, and I agree. I have wondered the same thing. 

From my observations of the US to US options:

Many are fake or scammers and when you try to order, nothing comes of it.
Very few US to US sellers in each market. From market to market, many are duplicates.
I notice the exact same photos being used by different sellers. Whether they are using stock images or whether they are stealing photos from each other, who knows.
Many of the US sellers specifically say things like, "we import so you don't have to!" Some will name their original source and some won't.
Also, the focus of reviewers is largely whether they actually received the product and whether it was active or not. There is very limited to no commentary on the overall quality. 
Due to soooo many scammers, a vendor who actually ships something active is considered "trusted," especially if reagents look good.
But overall, yeah. If you eliminated the fake posts and the resellers, there would not be that many options. 

This is one reason why I don't think my experiments from these sources are that telling. I think I have tried four total. For all I know, several were actually the same original source. How would I know? Two of the four were importers, but did not indicate who/where the import was from beyond "Europe." The other two claimed to be US produced, but again, who really knows?


----------



## user666

Jmoda said:


> ...producing all different varieties of colors and purities and impurities.


We cannot even compare the impurities/synth byproducts because we do not have access to the raw chromatograms and spectrograms.



indigoaura said:


> For all I know, several were actually the same original source. How would I know?


If you had access to the raw chromatograms and spectrograms and saw two identical ones, it would be a dead giveaway about their common origin.


----------



## indigoaura

> If you had access to the raw chromatograms and spectrograms and saw two identical ones, it would be a dead giveaway about their common origin.



So true.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

Jmoda said:


> I'm sorry, but there is no way there is only one mass producer that is purposefully producing all different varieties of colors and purities and impurities. Will alot of the same vendors have the same source? Yes, undoubtedly, but to insinuate some sort of MDMA New World Order seems a bit of a stretch
> 
> Listings become homogeneous because there are certain buzzwords customers like to see. If one vendor sees another selling well, they'll copy the wording. I dont think this is just true of DNM MDMA, you will find similar phenomena with all types of goods. Even in the clearnet world....descriptions for product are going to be similar.....



I hear what you say but, assuming batch variation, is there really that many different listings?  Hey, even the different colours may be due to batch variation and switching raw ingredient supplier.  Ok, I don't have any expertise in the chemistry so don't not what variations cause what outcomes but one obvious lack in variance is the meh'ness of it all - which I would find surprising if there are a lot of different suppliers.

And when you see the tiny number of vendors compared to the number of drug dealers there must be in each country, is it that much of a stretch that there's only a handful of suppliers, or one?  It could be that what we see is those that actively went to form networks that supplied online, versus traditional routes.

And new world order is a bit tin foil hat.  Perhaps more like nvidia vs amd, there's not many big producers in the game.


----------



## indigoaura

@Jmoda , just to clarify, I certainly don't think that there is "one ecstasy supplier to rule them all" in some Lord of the Rings style fantasy struggle against good and evil. No.

I am just looking at what is available and seeing a lot of similarities. I doubt it is one supplier, but I would not be surprised if many listings share sources. Shit, I used to see more pill stamps and variety in my dealer's closet than what I see now.


----------



## fasterfb

I get my product locally, so I have never had to use the DNM's yet.
I'm just curious. Has anyone here EVER had success in finding legit MDMA from the DNM's?
Thanks


----------



## TripSitterNZ

plenty of legit mdma on DNM but the supply here is usually imported or smuggled not from other DNM's. But there are many suppliers in holland and honestly you need to be careful because they just send out random quality like black mdma and that sort of things these people usually sell crack and heroin so don't give a fuck about mdma its just another drug to make money for them.


----------



## fasterfb

TripSitterNZ said:


> plenty of legit mdma on DNM but the supply here is usually imported or smuggled not from other DNM's. But there are many suppliers in holland and honestly you need to be careful because they just send out random quality like black mdma and that sort of things these people usually sell crack and heroin so don't give a fuck about mdma its just another drug to make money for them.



Yeah, I can imagine that happens a lot. 
I prefer being able to do due diligence by buying locally.
I wouldn't mind checking out the DNM's though out of curiosity to see what kind of rare chems are out there.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

TripSitterNZ said:


> plenty of legit mdma on DNM...


No


----------



## majk13

TripSitterNZ said:


> plenty of legit mdma on DNM





I have these jurassic that you wrote about are very good, I don't know when I will test them because somehow after the last time with meh I feel aversion to mdma ...
I have a picture of them but I can't post it here (some error pops up) 
.


----------



## indigoaura

majk13 said:


> I have these jurassic that you wrote about are very good, I don't know when I will test them because somehow after the last time with meh I feel aversion to mdma ...
> I have a picture of them but I can't post it here (some error pops up)
> .



Do they have the mis-spelling on the stamp?


----------



## indigoaura

I keep saying the same stuff in this thread over and over.

Location matters.

Even here in Texas, Houston is a very different scene than Austin. 

Online, Canada is very different from US, Europe is very different from Canada or US. 

What is true for TripsitterNZ in New Zealand is not applicable to other distant parts of the world. If New Zealand was representative of the world at large, we would all be free from COVID-19 right now.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Do they have the mis-spelling on the stamp?


yes its a misspelled version of jurassic. supposedly sold at 300 mg while the reseller said for him it felt more like 250 mg and for me i would of said it has like 200 mg but it was still magic.


----------



## HeadphonesandLSD

fasterfb said:


> I get my product locally, so I have never had to use the DNM's yet.
> I'm just curious. Has anyone here EVER had success in finding legit MDMA from the DNM's?
> Thanks



In my area everything comes in from the DNMs and has for a long time now.


----------



## Jmoda

indigoaura said:


> @Jmoda , just to clarify, I certainly don't think that there is "one ecstasy supplier to rule them all" in some Lord of the Rings style fantasy struggle against good and evil. No.
> 
> I am just looking at what is available and seeing a lot of similarities. I doubt it is one supplier, but I would not be surprised if many listings share sources. Shit, I used to see more pill stamps and variety in my dealer's closet than what I see now.



I agree here. I actually stated the same. I am sure many vendors have the same source. Im also convinced most the big producers are producing some mass bullshit. I guess LEO wins this round? Hopefully future generations of top chemists eventually step up...

Feels like there are always ebbs and flows. There were periods where methylone flooded the "molly" msrket, then there were mints and pokeballs for a good period for instance, and then one day gone. Im sure there will be a comeback at some point!


Would love if someone was saving a mint or pokeball. Could send it to le junk to see what he thinks. Maybe everyone should just send their product to le junk and he can be our report for if we have magic or not


----------



## TripSitterNZ

most synthesis are producing a few hundred kg of mdma at a time in industrial scale labs. So one major product should have hundreds of kgs of product out there same with Meh?. Im sure a majorty of resellers probably don't care about quality and just want money we have trash resellers here just one look at the product and it looks fucked either black to cola and just not something right about it hell i even saw a pic of purple black mdma looked like a  crystal you buy from one of those shops you buy tarot cards at. Be selective when buying things if it looks like trash thens it probably trash.


----------



## G_Chem

Jmoda said:


> I agree here. I actually stated the same. I am sure many vendors have the same source. Im also convinced most the big producers are producing some mass bullshit. I guess LEO wins this round? Hopefully future generations of top chemists eventually step up...
> 
> Feels like there are always ebbs and flows. There were periods where methylone flooded the "molly" msrket, then there were mints and pokeballs for a good period for instance, and then one day gone. Im sure there will be a comeback at some point!
> 
> 
> Would love if someone was saving a mint or pokeball. Could send it to le junk to see what he thinks. Maybe everyone should just send their product to le junk and he can be our report for if we have magic or not



I tried saving some mints, I made it til 2015 where I couldn’t help but eat my last one.  They were just too good . That said, I feel the product I’ve been getting since then has been equally as good for the most part.

Haha Le Junk would be burnt out quick from this endeavor I’m sure.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I'll spare Le Junk such suffering, and I'll just test his magic product instead.


----------



## Rectify

Grind it down to 10 microns, supersaturate in EtOH / H20, add surfactant, make gel caps, and distribute.  Worked for ritanovir (Norvir).


----------



## majk13

indigoaura said:


> Do they have the mis-spelling on the stamp?











						IMG 20200919 130800 — Postimages
					






					postimg.cc


----------



## wenluojia

A comment on the dark net markets.

I think we have to be careful to talk about "the DNM". There is no "DNM". It's an ecosystem that is very, very diversified, and also locally very different. How me and my peers are using the darknet is very specific. We mostly only order domestically, and mostly only order from vendors that we know that are good and have reviews from elsewhere (*<<mod edit>>*some vendor*<</mod edit>>* is excellent in this regard for psychedelics). These vendors on these markets (which change all the time) are sometimes just normal dudes who just resell bulk orders from the Netherlands. But a couple of times I also found vendors who produce their products themselves (2C-B for example) and we had excellent communication and I ended up with some of the best products I have ever had. You find everything on the markets. It's a bazaar, a platform, a meeting place between buyers and sellers of all kind. If you look at the MDMA coming out of the Netherlands, and that is true, it is mostly cheap bulk "champagne" MDMA, in the form of "rocks". Which is sometimes decent, and sometimes good, but never stellar.

I'm always amazed at how I can source 100ug LSD tabs with 99% purity (lab-tested) for like 2-3$. MDMA is a bit of a different story though. While the wider community (again, *<<mod edit>>*some website*<</mod edit>>* is the place) seems to put a lot of effort to produce pure psychedelics, this does not seem to be the case for MDMA. I haven't been able to find a consistently good product which is produced with a little bit of love and a focus on quality. I would easily pay five times the street rate for such a product. The prices where I live (central Europe) are ridiculous these days, you can get your standard five grams 90% tested MDMA pure MDMA for like 80 bucks. I have once found a domestic seller who sold 95% pure white MDMA which was excellent. Never found him again though.

I have always wondered why there is no MDMA source for "premium" quality for a premium price around.

Edit: What I'm talking about can be seen in Hamiltons Pharmacopeia Season 2, Episode 6, "A Clandestine Chemist's Tale". The product looks super clean. It's a result of effort. Not suited for large scale production though. The episode is interesting to watch anyway. It's on Youtube.


----------



## majk13

^manufacturers do not want to stand out from the crowd, drug crime services regularly test samples purchased by DM and on this basis create maps of the regions where these samples come from ...


----------



## TripSitterNZ

you have to be in the know and setup your own contacts to hidden vendor shops where quality is something taken seriously and where those people have their lines into whatever country they are shipping to i.e it won't get picked up by customs pretty much top level syndicates where amounts start at a kg i have seen czech republic mafias trying to push their product out and wanting partners stuff seemed to be pretty good in the pics i assume someone took them up on the offer here because months later 98% mdma started arriving.


----------



## Le Junk

user666 said:


> Yes, that is not full pupil dilation.
> Full Mydriasis looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the photo above, when you divide the Inner Diameter (I.D.) by the Outer Diameter (O.D.), you get 0.823
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, when you divide the Inner Diameter (I.D.) by the Outer Diameter (O.D.) in your eye, you get 0.455, ...which is much less than the full Mydriasis depicted in the first photo.
> 
> People who do not want to post photos of their eyes publicly (which I understand), should at least post the I.D. divided by the O.D.
> In the examples above, I made these measurements in the vertical and horizontal directions so it is easier to understand, but to be more accurate both of these measurements should be made in the horizontal direction, in order to make them immune to any optical distortions.
> 
> Such measurements would constitute quantifiable data if the ambient lighting conditions were controlled for.  Practically, that would mean standing in front of your illuminated shaving/makeup mirror for 3min, before taking the photo ...and if you used a luxmeter, that would be a cherry on top.



Yep, the top photo is exactly what my pupils look like every time I do my MDMA. Every single time without fail. If the pupils do not look like this, the MDMA you’re doing is modern day MehDMA. You will want to file for a refund at that point


----------



## Jmoda

G_Chem said:


> I tried saving some mints, I made it til 2015 where I couldn’t help but eat my last one.  They were just too good . That said, I feel the product I’ve been getting since then has been equally as good for the most part.
> 
> Haha Le Junk would be burnt out quick from this endeavor I’m sure.
> 
> -GC




Would you consider the mints as "magic" ?


----------



## G_Chem

Jmoda said:


> Would you consider the mints as "magic" ?



Most definitely, this conversation has been around for awhile and even back then people thought they were special.  As we used to say back then “they were a different synth.”

I never had a bad/lackluster mint experience even when I took too little.

The one thing with mints though is they did have some mixes.  They liked to add MDA, and I swear one yellow blank I had might’ve had a tiny meth in it (like the perfect amount, we couldn’t tell until it was 10hrs later and sleep wasn’t coming easy, not overly stimmed) but they knew how to put the perfect dosages.

One festival I remember taking 180mg shard MD accidentally at once the first night and was floored but the next night took some mints and even 1 1/2 spread out hit me in such a better way. (at most 150mg total that night)

I watched whole friend groups form and die with those pills.  There was so much love that emanated from those things.  I’d pay top dollar just to have a couple of any of them.

When they left something changed, I still had access to quality but a lot didn’t and there wasn’t that carefree no fucks given attitude anymore.  I began to feel a lot more alone in my mindset at events.  Probably part of the reason I usually dose my whole friend group when we go to anything together these days, I enjoy vibing with those around me.

I can never say enough good things about those pills.  120-140mg pill with 90-120mg MDMA in them they were as close to pure pressed MDMA as it got, just enough filler to barely keep them together.

Part of me sometimes wonders if the MDA had a part in it all.  MDA is common around me, and I’ve found through my own experience a 4:1 ratio MDMA:MDA can produce some amazing experiences.

One things for sure, all substances put into the mints were of absolutely stellar purity.  Only the early ones smell of sass but later on there were beyond pure, no sass smell.

Some said they were a group of hippies doing it for the love, others said the polish mafia, whoever you were please come back.

MDA while not as good for music events sometimes definitely brings more love to the experience for others.  I can’t tell you how much time I’ve lost chatting shit, massaging, fucking, chatting more shit, getting hella confused, ah I love MDMA/MDA combo.

-GC


----------



## Jmoda

G_Chem said:


> Most definitely, this conversation has been around for awhile and even back then people thought they were special.  As we used to say back then “they were a different synth.”
> 
> I never had a bad/lackluster mint experience even when I took too little.
> 
> The one thing with mints though is they did have some mixes.  They liked to add MDA, and I swear one yellow blank I had might’ve had a tiny meth in it (like the perfect amount, we couldn’t tell until it was 10hrs later and sleep wasn’t coming easy, not overly stimmed) but they knew how to put the perfect dosages.
> 
> One festival I remember taking 180mg shard MD accidentally at once the first night and was floored but the next night took some mints and even 1 1/2 spread out hit me in such a better way. (at most 150mg total that night)
> 
> I watched whole friend groups form and die with those pills.  There was so much love that emanated from those things.  I’d pay top dollar just to have a couple of any of them.
> 
> When they left something changed, I still had access to quality but a lot didn’t and there wasn’t that carefree no fucks given attitude anymore.  I began to feel a lot more alone in my mindset at events.  Probably part of the reason I usually dose my whole friend group when we go to anything together these days, I enjoy vibing with those around me.
> 
> I can never say enough good things about those pills.  120-140mg pill with 90-120mg MDMA in them they were as close to pure pressed MDMA as it got, just enough filler to barely keep them together.
> 
> Part of me sometimes wonders if the MDA had a part in it all.  MDA is common around me, and I’ve found through my own experience a 4:1 ratio MDMA:MDA can produce some amazing experiences.
> 
> One things for sure, all substances put into the mints were of absolutely stellar purity.  Only the early ones smell of sass but later on there were beyond pure, no sass smell.
> 
> Some said they were a group of hippies doing it for the love, others said the polish mafia, whoever you were please come back.
> 
> MDA while not as good for music events sometimes definitely brings more love to the experience for others.  I can’t tell you how much time I’ve lost chatting shit, massaging, fucking, chatting more shit, getting hella confused, ah I love MDMA/MDA combo.
> 
> -GC




And your magic product now...also from the same area as mints?


----------



## G_Chem

Jmoda said:


> And your magic product now...also from the same area as mints?



More or less.. (Midwest) I shop around a bit too.  I can be kinda an ass at festivals cuz I’ll ask to see someone’s product, test it (tests legit) and I still say no thanks lol.  I’ve got my eye out for something particular, and it’s not a brown clump.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Those Mints sound like the Stunners that went around this area in 2001. Everyone always had a good time on the Stunners, whether they took 1/2 or 3 or more. They were pink pills, with a #1 and 3 stars on the front. They went by "Stunner" "#1" and "Superstar." I always thought that the singer Pink referenced them in her song, "Get the Party Started" (released that same year). She sang, "License plate says stunner, #1, superstar" giving all three names for the pill before launching into her "I'm Coming Up" chorus.


----------



## G_Chem

Looking at reddit I saw this picture which I think really again shows what good pure product these days looks like.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/ivczsy

This being an example of what not to buy lol.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/iv6bor

-GC


----------



## psy997

But even that picture of "super clean" doesn't look too far off from what I've gotten the past two years. The crystal structure is only slightly more defined and clear, and it's missing the grey/blue tint that I've seen, but besides that, it looks really similar.


----------



## Jmoda

psy997 said:


> But even that picture of "super clean" doesn't look too far off from what I've gotten the past two years. The crystal structure is only slightly more defined and clear, and it's missing the grey/blue tint that I've seen, but besides that, it looks really similar.




As in, you've gotten shit that looks like that, but is meh?


----------



## Jmoda

indigoaura said:


> Those Mints sound like the Stunners that went around this area in 2001. Everyone always had a good time on the Stunners, whether they took 1/2 or 3 or more. They were pink pills, with a #1 and 3 stars on the front. They went by "Stunner" "#1" and "Superstar." I always thought that the singer Pink referenced them in her song, "Get the Party Started" (released that same year). She sang, "License plate says stunner, #1, superstar" giving all three names for the pill before launching into her "I'm Coming Up" chorus.




Besides the Pink anecdote, which is really cool btw (though i wonder if the pill pressers are the ones that were inspired to make "pink" pills in reference) something interesting here is how the general talk these days about mdma seems to be that you need to pass the threshhold amount, or else it can make you irritated and just give you anxiety. Its kind of similar to reports about 6-APB, where it is important you hit the threshold amount get you "in".

Interestingly, 5MAPB is more like what you described with the stunners. Any amount you take will be good, just at a lower scale, which seems like how the stunners were....and how magic is supposed to be?


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> Looking at reddit I saw this picture which I think really again shows what good pure product these days looks like.


I had some stuff from a vendor who claims it is what goes into the Qdance pills.  Looked fantastic, clean crystals, and was about the meh'ist I've had.  Which I guess does support the qdance claim


----------



## psy997

Jmoda said:


> As in, you've gotten shit that looks like that, but is meh?



Close to that, yes. I could try and pull out my DSLR and get some good photos of the various batches I have, if pushed enough.


----------



## Jmoda

psy997 said:


> Close to that, yes. I could try and pull out my DSLR and get some good photos of the various batches I have, if pushed enough.



Do it.

Do it.

Do it.

Is that enough?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

ThreePointCircle said:


> I had some stuff from a vendor who claims it is what goes into the Qdance pills.  Looked fantastic, clean crystals, and was about the meh'ist I've had.  Which I guess does support the qdance claim


when was the last time you had magic?. For some people it could be down to biology and they have totally burnt their receptors while others are getting magic and meh sometimes. Idk what applies to you and your use though id say doing 5meo dmt made every drug stronger for me forever.


----------



## indigoaura

I have never had anything that looks like those clean white rocks in the picture. Every crystal I have had has been some variation of brown, Maybe a semi-transparent brown, or opaque brown, but still brown. I have had a white powder, but never seen a full crystal like that.


----------



## G_Chem

TripSitterNZ said:


> when was the last time you had magic?. For some people it could be down to biology and they have totally burnt their receptors while others are getting magic and meh sometimes. Idk what applies to you and your use though id say doing 5meo dmt made every drug stronger for me forever.



I wonder this sometimes too.  Is a product that I enjoy going to be meh for others?  That said I’ve also watched many others take said product with similar results so idk.

That wouldn’t explain why many of ya’ll also had sudden loss of a certain supplier and no longer felt it was the same.

Another thing I’ve wondered.  And this seems like a real possibility...  Neurotoxicity/tolerance can still arise from meh and maybe causes it even more based on the ill effects in the days after.  People take more trying to find something they can recognize from their past experiences only to be disappointed.  Thing is though despite the lack of effects the toxicity is still there, and 250-300+mg of it nonetheless.

Now when a good batch comes through there’s a long term tolerance established from the continuous tries with meh product. To explain the random off experiences where someone then rolls good, maybe it was beyond stellar/top tier product or maybe tolerance had time to come back to normal a bit.

And one final thing that I suggest many of you do, buy more than just a few doses worth.  I get the impression many of you buy a few doses here or a gram there.  Your always trying new stuff and can never get familiar with a batch.  If a few of you who’s been consistently getting meh from everywhere all the sudden came into a decent batch that produced 3-5 good rolls for you, that would be some stronger evidence IMO because with these one here one there type experiences you never know if it was the batch of possibly just biological factors all lining up perfectly.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> I wonder this sometimes too.  Is a product that I enjoy going to be meh for others?  That said I’ve also watched many others take said product with similar results so idk.
> 
> That wouldn’t explain why many of ya’ll also had sudden loss of a certain supplier and no longer felt it was the same.
> 
> Another thing I’ve wondered.  And this seems like a real possibility...  Neurotoxicity/tolerance can still arise from meh and maybe causes it even more based on the ill effects in the days after.  People take more trying to find something they can recognize from their past experiences only to be disappointed.  Thing is though despite the lack of effects the toxicity is still there, and 250-300+mg of it nonetheless.
> 
> Now when a good batch comes through there’s a long term tolerance established from the continuous tries with meh product. To explain the random off experiences where someone then rolls good, maybe it was beyond stellar/top tier product or maybe tolerance had time to come back to normal a bit.
> 
> And one final thing that I suggest many of you do, buy more than just a few doses worth.  I get the impression many of you buy a few doses here or a gram there.  Your always trying new stuff and can never get familiar with a batch.  If a few of you who’s been consistently getting meh from everywhere all the sudden came into a decent batch that produced 3-5 good rolls for you, that would be some stronger evidence IMO because with these one here one there type experiences you never know if it was the batch of possibly just biological factors all lining up perfectly.
> 
> -GC



I had rolled about 4 or 5 times in the 90s.  Came back to it when I found out about dark markets.  Meh from day 1 (from the market, the 90s stuff was amazing).  I'm pretty skeptical of the 'burnt out receptors' nonsense.  If that were the case, and we're basically saying significant brain damage here, I believe I would have symptoms in my day to day life.

It also doesn't explain those who come across both magic and meh batches now.  I'm thinking the fundamental problem is the quality of supply to the DMs at a basic level, and that the detail of the problem is probably impurities that are actively blocking the MDMA action.  But until we can get confirmation of that we are in the dark.


----------



## G_Chem

ThreePointCircle said:


> I had rolled about 4 or 5 times in the 90s.  Came back to it when I found out about dark markets.  Meh from day 1 (from the market, the 90s stuff was amazing).  I'm pretty skeptical of the 'burnt out receptors' nonsense.  If that were the case, and we're basically saying significant brain damage here, I believe I would have symptoms in my day to day life.
> 
> It also doesn't explain those who come across both magic and meh batches now.  I'm thinking the fundamental problem is the quality of supply to the DMs at a basic level, and that the detail of the problem is probably impurities that are actively blocking the MDMA action.  But until we can get confirmation of that we are in the dark.



But I’m saying what if the first couple of batches when you got back into it were meh, caused toxicity/tolerance to which when you finally cane across a good batch it didn’t effect you like before.. This is indeed a possibility for everyone here.

Not saying it’s the answer, but it’s a possibility nonetheless.  With how ill some get afterwards, and the often relating of the comedown to MDA, it would sound as if meh does cause more toxicity despite its lack of positive effects.

The couple of times I’ve come across potential meh I didn’t dose more to push it to a better place, I didn’t take it again, so there’s never been much risk on my end if this theory is correct.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> But I’m saying what if the first couple of batches when you got back into it were meh, caused toxicity/tolerance to which when you finally cane across a good batch it didn’t effect you like before.. This is indeed a possibility for everyone here.
> 
> Not saying it’s the answer, but it’s a possibility nonetheless.  With how ill some get afterwards, and the often relating of the comedown to MDA, it would sound as if meh does cause more toxicity despite its lack of positive effects.
> 
> -GC


I hear what you're saying but I don't have any brain damage symptoms.  Truth be told my brain is more on it now than when I got my maths degree and comp sci phd.  And alcoholics with brain damage still get drunk right?  I get tolerance but that's a moving line and its not like I'm doing this every weekend.

And bad comedown/hangover doesn't necessarily equal damage.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

There's been a bit of a theme in this thread that to enjoy mdma you have to align the planets or something.  Set and setting, taking the right vitamins and minerals, not rolling more than 1.78 times in a 12 month period, etc...  As if it was like the old days of getting reception on a tv with a crappy aerial, and you have to hang out the window holding it to get a decent picture.

The 90s stuff was very much not this.  You could swallow that pill and fret and fret for 50mins.  And then bang!  It hit you like a truck and beamed you up to euphoria station.  It really wasn't difficult


----------



## G_Chem

You do realize brain damage occurs in many different ways depending on what areas are effected, it wouldn’t effect your ability to compute math equations and looking at the research only heavy users really “feel” much.

From my research toxicity from MDMA mainly shows as tolerance to subsequent doses...  In fact this is one way they judge if toxicity has occurred in some research articles.  This is also why I know I and a few of my close people haven’t occurred any damage as we still use the same dose we did many years ago with no loss of effects.

And not sure if the second post is directed at me but I have no problem rolling every time I do..  Like I said I’ve had maybe 3 meh experiences out of over 100.  I also have a couple of buddies who roll with me that have been at it since the 90’s that never complain about thevproduct.

I, and others, are trying to offer any possible theory to better understand this but often if it doesn’t perfectly align with ones own views in this thread it’s written off.  The simple facts are that it just doesn’t make sense how I can almost never encounter it after 15+yrs of use but others can’t find anything that works for them.

I’ve tried to be as open minded as possible during my (is it 4yrs now?) in this thread but when only a few of the individuals effected by this phenomenon seem open to new ideas and theories on the topic (you know who you are), it makes the whole process as fun as pulling teeth.

For gods sakes it took me years just to get people to finally move away from the isomer thing and onto the more likely culprit, impurities.

Again I believe ya’ll but it’s becoming obvious that this topic is going nowhere until an actual lab does some research into this very phenomenon.  There’s too much disagreement on what’s what to make heads or tails of anything.

-GC


----------



## ThreePointCircle

G_Chem said:


> You do realize brain damage occurs in many different ways depending on what areas are effected, it wouldn’t effect your ability to compute math equations and looking at the research only heavy users really “feel” much.
> 
> From my research toxicity from MDMA mainly shows as tolerance to subsequent doses...  In fact this is one way they judge if toxicity has occurred in some research articles.  This is also why I know I and a few of my close people haven’t occurred any damage as we still use the same dose we did many years ago with no loss of effects.
> 
> And not sure if the second post is directed at me but I have no problem rolling every time I do..  Like I said I’ve had maybe 3 meh experiences out of over 100.  I also have a couple of buddies who roll with me that have been at it since the 90’s that never complain about thevproduct.
> 
> I, and others, are trying to offer any possible theory to better understand this but often if it doesn’t perfectly align with ones own views in this thread it’s written off.  The simple facts are that it just doesn’t make sense how I can almost never encounter it after 15+yrs of use but others can’t find anything that works for them.
> 
> I’ve tried to be as open minded as possible during my (is it 4yrs now?) in this thread but when only a few of the individuals effected by this phenomenon seem open to new ideas and theories on the topic (you know who you are), it makes the whole process as fun as pulling teeth.
> 
> For gods sakes it took me years just to get people to finally move away from the isomer thing and onto the more likely culprit, impurities.


Fair enough, and I'm not trying to have a go.  But I also get a bit annoyed when people start saying the problem is me when there's so many consistent reports of a problem with xtc that quantitatively and qualitatively gel.  Hey, maybe I have brain damage, but I really don't think so.  Those receptors must be sitting there for more than getting a good experience from MDMA.  They must have some normal function which would be impaired or altered had they been seriously damaged.

I suspect the reason you don't come across meh very much is that you source locally.  I only source DM with uk or European vendors.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if this thread is about what is the problem with xtc then great, but if it becomes what is the problem with me then I get a little bit offended.



G_Chem said:


> Again I believe ya’ll but it’s becoming obvious that this topic is going nowhere until an actual lab does some research into this very phenomenon.  There’s too much disagreement on what’s what to make heads or tails of anything.


I agree.


----------



## indigoaura

I have often wondered whether my years of taking Meh product caused some kind of build up/tolerance/damage etc. I know that the product I was taking for many years was impure and had synthesis byproducts in it, because that was confirmed by a lab. I have no idea what the long term effects of those synth byproducts may have been.

And actually, there was one memorably, horrifically, bad experience with a meh product that sent my partner off into his negative spiral and left me unusually sick. Who knows what was in that meh batch (and actually, now that I think about it, I still have one of those pills set aside somewhere to send to a lab).

But, as Threepointcircle observed, I do not note any signs of significant damage in my day to day life other than short term memory issues. However, to be fair, my biological sister also has serious issues of this nature, and she has lived a squeaky clean life with no drug or alcohol use. Anything going on with me would be significantly below the surface, as I have maintained a successful professional life, advanced degrees, etc.

If it is any comfort, the Pfifl paper specifically talks about toxicity and hypothesizes that blocking MAO transporters actually blocks neuro-toxic effects, due to limiting neurotransmitter activity. However, the paper about  Duloxetine's interactions pointed out that despite the transporter activity being blocked, blood levels of MDMA were very high. To me, this shows that although the neurological impact may be lessened, other physical systems such as the liver may still be unusually taxed. This could explain the shift in the "comedown" and why it is more of a hangover effect (nausea, dizziness) than a psychological one. The transporter blockage kept the brain safe from the high doses, but did nothing to protect the liver, kidneys etc.

Link - https://sci-hub.st/http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/314/1/346.short
Link - https://sci-hub.st/https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0036476

I am personally wondering if the issue is genetic predisposition related to transporter activity. Some people will have genetic mutations that increase or decrease transporter availability/activity. If a synthesis byproduct is present in high enough concentrations to block, say, 100 transporters (just a random number, not meant to be realistic), then a person with only 90 transporters would be completely cut off from the MDMA experience. However, a person with 200 transporters would still have an additional 100 transporters open for MDMA to take effect.

I have not done enough research on this to really see if this theory is sound, but it seems plausible to me. This goes back to the idea that some people are more sensitive to the byproducts and impurities than other people, and opens the door up to why they may have a "meh" experience while their buddy gets the magic (as in the reddit anecdote that Negi found).


----------



## Negi

Not too much to add, it's just I have a great quote about detecting "damage". You can't "feel" neurotoxicity.


			
				http://harpers.org/archive/2013/08/gaboxadol/ said:
			
		

> One of the most frightening things about the human brain is how poorly it gauges its own functioning. Things quickly become complicated when you attempt to measure the performance of an instrument with the instrument performing the measurement. In 1969 a Dutch psychiatrist named Herman M. van Praag conducted a series of experiments on depressed patients with 4-chloroamphetamine, a new drug that possessed a significant therapeutic effect and was tolerated excellently; not a single patient complained of side effects. Though Praag discontinued his work in the mid- ’70s, 4-chloroamphetamine is still used widely today, not as an antidepressant but as a neurotoxin for selective depletion and destruction of serotonergic neurons in experimental animals. The point being that humans cannot necessarily feel neurological changes. Many disorders of the brain are accompanied by a commensurate inability to perceive the disorder. The later stages of Alzheimer’s, for example, are characterized by memory loss so severe that the deficits are forgotten.


----------



## NewTopic

Le Junk said:


> Yep, the top photo is exactly what my pupils look like every time I do my MDMA. Every single time without fail. If the pupils do not look like this, the MDMA you’re doing is modern day MehDMA. You will want to file for a refund at that point



This is a collection of people including me I have photo'd while on MDMA back in 2014.

The MDMA in 2014









The eyes















While this was in 2018 and the one above 2014 for comparison. 









Also the MDMA in this photo was in Amsterdam and looked to be of high quality but it produced the effects of the high above and was the meh mdma feeling. 

I took a year break from MDMA recently after a very bad experience with meh mdma which took months to recover, I suffered panic attacks throughout most nights and after that year break I took MDMA again in 0.1g and it lasted a solid 6 hours. It was probably the closest ive felt to the old days in a long time , now another year has passed and ill be doing more in the coming months. Ill let you know how it goes.


----------



## user666

NewTopic said:


> This is a collection of people including me I have photo'd while on MDMA back in 2014.
> 
> The eyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this was in 2018 and the one above 2014 for comparison.


The pupil dilation percentage (top-to-bottom photo)

62%
64%
63%
66%
53%


----------



## Negi

NewTopic said:


> This is a collection of people including me I have photo'd while on MDMA back in 2014.



Where did the two experiences (2014 and 2018) fall on meh vs magic?


----------



## NewTopic

Negi said:


> Where did the two experiences (2014 and 2018) fall on meh vs magic?


2014 was the last year I remember it being at its peak with the magic feeling. 

Here and there ill get a good batch which will surprise me but it doesn't have that super lovey dovey feeling like back then. I assumed it was due to change in precursors / methods when Safrole was dryed up.


----------



## indigoaura

@NewTopic I had some MDMA in 2013 that looked just like that baggie you posted a pic of. It was good. Prob the best stuff I had since 2005.


----------



## user666

Watch this if you used these DNM vendors.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> Watch this if you used these DNM vendors.


6.5 million dollars and 274 kg of drugs god LE likes to hype themselves thats literally nothing.


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> 6.5 million dollars and 274 kg of drugs god LE likes to hype themselves thats literally nothing.


It is something if you used one of these vendors or compromised markets.

Also, it is something if there is some kind of unknown vulnerability in TOR/TorBrowser, end2end encryption or cryptocurrency, which allowed them to deanonymize the participants.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Watch this if you used these DNM vendors.



I'm watching now. These hypocrites really piss me off. I say all of this as someone who lost a family member to an unintentional fentanyl overdose. These people are not dying because drugs exist. They are dying because drugs are illegal. If products were available safely and in known purities and dosages, many of these deaths would not occur. Yet, they make it out like the only way to address the issue is through criminalizing the drug user. It is all bullshit. Sorry, I know this is off topic, but the asshat in the video is really pissing me off. 

If drug addiction was treated like a health and psychological concern rather than a criminal concern, people could seek help without fear.
If drugs were legalized and regulated, there would be no opportunity for drug "kingpins" to grab power in cyberspace.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

BTC is always deanonymize, OPsec isn't a hard thing to do but yet countless fools still will not encrypt their address on the darknet thus leading to their arrests. Tracing fentanyl shipments from china leading to these groups isn't some cutting edge technology just ordinary work at customs and various LE. There are two types of criminals in the world stupid ones and smart ones who live their entire life without getting caught due to staying on top of their game and security. Alphabay literally had his same email and username linked to his LinkedIn and a unencrypted laptop. So alot of these markets are literally run by idiots who coded up a basic shopping market that had zero security. All those people caught from previous marketplaces had no encryption or were not using PGP and had their details all around and terrible opsec around crypto


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> It is something if you used one of these vendors or compromised markets.
> 
> Also, it is something if there is some kind of unknown vulnerability in TOR/TorBrowser, end2end encryption or cryptocurrency, which allowed them to deanonymize the participants.



I have personally never bought anything on the DW, and never had any crypto currency. I did have an account on one of the sites they mentioned, and I browsed. I probably messaged a few vendors. I would guess that law enforcement is more concerned with vendors than small time buyers anyway. Surely they do not have the manpower to go after everyone who ever made a purchase.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

its not illegal to buy drugs anyway if you have nothing on you when they search your home they can't do shit but tell you to not buy drugs again at least that is the case in most countries idk how america is.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> its not illegal to buy drugs anyway if you have nothing on you when they search your home they can't do shit but tell you to not buy drugs again at least that is the case in most countries idk how america is.


I read a few reports on Reddit re intercepted Darkweb orders, either a letter, one account of a visit from some shady, cagey detectives, like a dishonest, intimidation interrogation (I love using lots of long words in a row lol!) outside property I think, certainly no searching involved then they left.

I assumed it would be the big time, regular buyers when they occasiinally bust those markets and seize information, addresses....that they identify likely dealers for such, more invasive procedures.

But I disclaim- I know zero on this, no experience except my recent UK Border Force letter notice of seizure of 50 1cP-  LSD  blotters from Holland, liable to forfeiture unless I wish to challenge it in court.  

Brexit means EU orders go through Border force now and well, Amsterdam is pretty suspect haha!


----------



## killafoo

The lost magic thing is complete bollocks. I started taking pills again from around 2011 after not taking any mdma for five or six years. Between 2011 and 2013 I was trying various pills (well known stamps, from different producers) and some of these pills were great, just like the stuff I was taking in early 2000s, but there were a fair few (well known stamps that were being raved about online) that I found to be completely lacklustre and not comparable to any mdma experience I'd had before.  Why, after years of not taking mdma, would some producers pills feel like the old magic, and others be absolute shite? And since 2013 most of the pills I've tried have been utter bollocks. There was a massive seizure of mdma precursor  in Europe in 2013 I think it was by LE, tonnes of the stuff, and that's when mdma in Europe turned shit.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> These people are not <*getting sick*> and dying because drugs exist. They are <sick and> dying because drugs are illegal. If products were available safely and in known purities and dosages, many of these deaths would not occur. Yet, they make it out like the only way to address the issue is through criminalizing the drug user. It is all bullshit.


My thoughts exactly


----------



## G_Chem

New batch is in..

Nearly clear shards which break into completely clear smaller crystals, a light smell of safrole upon cracking open the shard.

Not wanting to roll too hard last night while hanging with my buddy he decided to take 82mg while I just ate a 5mg or so of 5-MAPB.

Even at 80mg his pupils were very large...  He was obviously rolling even at this amount and at one point commented “this feels like an average 150mg but without the edginess..”

This is someone who’s abused MDMA a lot in the past although hasn’t lost the magic yet.

IMO good product should have pupils pretty large even at small doses under 100mg.

-GC


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> IMO good product should have pupils pretty large even at small doses under 100mg.


I concur.
You are one of the most concrete posters in this thread. Did you take down his dilation ratio in controlled lighting conditions, which I mentioned before ?
What is his body mass ?


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> I concur.
> You are one of the most concrete posters in this thread. Did you take down his dilation ratio in controlled lighting conditions, which I mentioned before ?
> What is his body mass ?



Na unfortunately not on either...  But figured the anecdote was worth mentioning regardless.

When I have experiences or am with others having experiences it’s tough to pull away from the moment for stuff like that.

I’ll try to remember to do it to myself here in a few weeks though!

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Found a pic from 2014. This was one of the better batches I have had in recent years. It was not "old school," but it was better than most. I am curious if this pic shows slightly more dilation than my other pic. This was off a much lower dose. I think I only took a total of 200 mg that night, and this may have been taken after only 100 mg. I would have to find my written notes from 2014 to know for sure if this was after dose 1, or after the re-dose.  @user666 would you comment on the dilation?

<edited to add: looks like this was taken 3.5 hours after the initial dose. Most likely, by that time, I had already taken the re-dose.>


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> @user666 would you comment on the dilation?


53%


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> 53%



For the more recent pic, you said it was 0.491. 

The more recent pic was on a much higher dose, but had less dilation over all. 

So, my recollections of the two batches seem to align with the eye dilation, overall. 

200 mg = 53% (less meh)
350 mg = 49% (more meh)


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> For the more recent pic, you said it was 0.491.


Yes, that would be the 49%



indigoaura said:


> The more recent pic was on a much higher dose, but had less dilation over all.
> So, my recollections of the two batches seem to align with the eye dilation, overall.
> 200 mg = 53% (less meh)
> 350 mg = 49% (more meh)


To be completely scientific about it, such small differences are not statistically significant.

As it stands now, I do not even know of a reliable study, which documents the dose-response function. (the response in this case being the mydriasis).
It is even our assumption that the response is monotonically increasing with the dose.

If we had several hundred dilation measurements in controlled light conditions, with known dose and body mass, then we could get build up this function ourselves and with the p value below 0.05.
Maybe such data already exists somewhere.  I did not look for it exhaustively.  The data from a "pre-Meh era" would be especially valuable.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Yes, that would be the 49%
> 
> 
> To be completely scientific about it, such small differences are not statistically significant.
> 
> As it stands now, I do not even know of a reliable study, which documents the dose-response function. (the response in this case being the mydriasis).
> It is even our assumption that the response is monotonically increasing with the dose.
> 
> If we had several hundred dilation measurements in controlled light conditions, with known dose and body mass, then we could get build up this function ourselves and with the p value below 0.05.
> Maybe such data already exists somewhere.  I did not look for it exhaustively.  The data from a "pre-Meh era" would be especially valuable.



Pupillary diameter is included in a chart on page 6 of this study:


			https://www.jcami.eu/documents/Pharmacology%20of%20MDMA%20in%20Humans.%20Ann%20New%20York%20Acad%20Sci.pdf
		


It does show that it correlates with dose.

<edited to add: Based on that study, if we want to be accurate about this, we need to photograph pupils at specific points and make comparisons between photos taken at the same time.>


----------



## sdxyln

Pupil dilation is a means to measure a possible MDMA purity range?


----------



## indigoaura

sdxyln said:


> Pupil dilation is a means to measure a possible MDMA purity range?



I don't know that I would go so far as to say that. However, research does show that MDMA will cause mydriasis for the majority of users once you have crossed a certain dose threshold. However, there are a lot of people in this thread who take much higher doses than that and do not see mydriasis. Other typical effects are also absent. So, many people here do think mydriasis is a measure of whether you have received quality MDMA or not.


----------



## sdxyln

Not really quantifiable though is it? Like colour ... although pure MDMA tends to be very white (because of acetone washing multiple times).


----------



## t_wrex

sdxyln said:


> Not really quantifiable though is it? Like colour ... although pure MDMA tends to be very white (because of acetone washing multiple times).



Does this imply that you could purify some MDMA that you have by washing it with acetone?


----------



## sdxyln

An acetone wash will only remove oils/precursors. Meth among certain other drugs that MDMA is often cut with, will remain as they are not soluble in acetone. This is why testing reagents are critical.


----------



## t_wrex

sdxyln said:


> An acetone wash will only remove oils/precursors. Meth among certain other drugs that MDMA is often cut with, will remain as they are not soluble in acetone. This is why testing reagents are critical.



Sure, as I personally always test and recommend others do so as well.

Fractional distillation could isolate the individual compounds, could it not?


----------



## sdxyln

You have entered the Chemist's territory but I am not one ...

But I know that water distillation overnight often leaves small glass-like shards ... the method is useful to recrystallise powered MDMA.


----------



## G_Chem

sdxyln said:


> Not really quantifiable though is it? Like colour ... although pure MDMA tends to be very white (because of acetone washing multiple times).



It is a lot more quantifiable than color as @user666 has shown with measurements of pupils. 

I’ve got one picture I found that was caught at a club years back, I never get pictures of me taken let alone while high so I was surprised in the photo to say the least.  It’s grainy (too grainy to measure accurately) but my pupils are pretty much to the edge.  As are my two companions..

This was off 100+50mg of some clear potent shard.

I’m going to do as you say yser666 here in a couple weeks to get measurements for magic..  I’ll report back.



t_wrex said:


> Sure, as I personally always test and recommend others do so as well.
> 
> Fractional distillation could isolate the individual compounds, could it not?



Acetone washing can help but it’s poor compared to vacuum fractional distillation in terms of purifying MDMA.

If I was an MDMA chemist, no matter the route I’d do an A/B with multiple washes on both the freebase and salt.  Followed by vacuum distillation (depending on the setup possibly multiple distillations). Then gas with ultra dry and pure HCl gas in isopropyl, obtain salt.  Wash with freezer cold acetone very briskly only once (to avoid enamine formation which is likely nil but a concern nonetheless).  Finish off with a very slow re-x from dried isopropyl.

If every chemist did this we wouldn’t be here talking..

-GC


----------



## sekio

I would advise not jumping into a purification without first doing some sort of test (GC, TLC) to show what you need to remove..


----------



## G_Chem

sekio said:


> I would advise not jumping into a purification without first doing some sort of test (GC, TLC) to show what you need to remove..



You have to say though sekio, that if one is unsure techniques like a full A/B and vacuum distillation aren’t going to hurt none and will more likely clean it up than an acetone wash or re-X.

-GC


----------



## sekio

It really depends. Recrystallization can be quite powerful if you have the right conditions.

Vacuum distillation is a little too equipment-heavy for the average person to do, but certainly can help purify things. Preferably you would do so with a fractionating column and not as a simple distillation though. Also you would have to convert the MDMA to its freebase oil form to do so, you can't distill the HCl salt...

BTW when you isolate this mystical impurity that ruins MDMA trips, page me...


----------



## NewTopic

NewTopic said:


> This is a collection of people including me I have photo'd while on MDMA back in 2014.
> 
> The MDMA in 2014
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The eyes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this was in 2018 and the one above 2014 for comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also the MDMA in this photo was in Amsterdam and looked to be of high quality but it produced the effects of the high above and was the meh mdma feeling.
> 
> I took a year break from MDMA recently after a very bad experience with meh mdma which took months to recover, I suffered panic attacks throughout most nights and after that year break I took MDMA again in 0.1g and it lasted a solid 6 hours. It was probably the closest ive felt to the old days in a long time , now another year has passed and ill be doing more in the coming months. Ill let you know how it goes.



Also, I found an image from last year where previously to that I took a year break and this MDMA was good. 100mg last a solid 6 hours which was crazy ! 

Strong similarity to the 2014 dialation.


----------



## user666

NewTopic said:


> Also, I found an image from last year where previously to that I took a year break and this MDMA was good. 100mg last a solid 6 hours which was crazy !
> Strong similarity to the 2014 dialation.


61%


----------



## G_Chem

So I still can’t figure out how to safely post this pic but I found one of me from like 2013 or so with pupils huge.

I blew it up and then measured the grainy picture best I could with a ruler lol.  I measured at two different zooms to try and get a better read.

Both measured in at around 80%.

-GC


----------



## NewTopic

G_Chem said:


> So I still can’t figure out how to safely post this pic but I found one of me from like 2013 or so with pupils huge.
> 
> I blew it up and then measured the grainy picture best I could with a ruler lol.  I measured at two different zooms to try and get a better read.
> 
> Both measured in at around 80%.
> 
> -GC


Probably the only thing thats going to put everything out is going to be lighting. If your in the dark your pupils will be naturally bigger. 

But jeeze 80% is unreal hey ! Certainly dinner plates


----------



## G_Chem

NewTopic said:


> Probably the only thing thats going to put everything out is going to be lighting. If your in the dark your pupils will be naturally bigger.
> 
> But jeeze 80% is unreal hey ! Certainly dinner plates



Your definitely right.  This pic was taken in a dark (although not super dark) club so I’m sure that had some effect on it.  That was definitely a night to remember 

I’m gonna try it out here soon with the vanity lighting and all that at my peak to see what I get.  This picture should be much less grainy too so probably a more accurate read.

-GC


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> So I still can’t figure out how to safely post this pic but I found one of me from like 2013 or so with pupils huge.


You do not have to post the pic if you can calculate the I.D. divided by the O.D. ( both measurements in the horizontal direction preferably ).



G_Chem said:


> I blew it up and then measured the grainy picture best I could with a ruler lol.  I measured at two different zooms to try and get a better read.
> Both measured in at around 80%.


Anything at or above 80% is considered Full Mydriasis.
It is not unheard of - for example see *this*.



NewTopic said:


> Probably the only thing thats going to put everything out is going to be lighting. If your in the dark your pupils will be naturally bigger.


Of course, that is why I suggest standing in front of your regular shaving/makeup mirror in the illuminated state for 3min to make these measurements comparable.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> I’m gonna try it out here soon with the vanity lighting and all that at my peak to see what I get.


Get a fasting glucose curve, too.
It is very unusual for the glucose level to increase in your blood when you're consuming only slightly salted water.


----------



## G_Chem

Here’s an old thread from the Hive which discusses the pharmacology of an Oxycodone dimer.

What’s interesting is that supposedly this particular dimer could be more potent but a rather smart member follows up with the poor BB permeability of said dimer would cause it to possibly be toxic before reaching levels to effect CNS.

The dimer theory could explain the feeling of toxicity in the body in the days after, while still not being as effective as before.



			Enable cookies
		


-GC


----------



## indigoaura

I know this has been posted before, but just to emphasize, MDMA Dimer has been documented as an impurity in seized samples. 

Here: https://sci-hub.st/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037907380600394X (p. 89)


----------



## indigoaura

Another article:


			Sci-Hub | Synthesis and impurity profiling of MDMA prepared from commonly available starting materials. Forensic Science International, 223(1-3), 306–313 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.006
		




> Samples prepared from vanillin contained the MDMA dimers resulting from the vanillin and piperonal dimers. Samples prepared from piperine contained N-acetyl piperidine and, when unreacted piperine was present, the two dihydropiperine isomers.


----------



## G_Chem

https://chemistry.mdma.ch/hiveboard/rhodium/pdf/forensic/noggle.sassy2mdma-1.pdf
		


Goes over dimers found in MDMA made from bromosafrole.

I’m wondering if overall the occurrence of safrole dimerization is less than that of piperanol, thus giving a better product?

-GC


----------



## Jmoda

Recently had some magic, major thanks to the person that made it possible (you know who you are). I have to say, I feel a little incomplete, in a sense, to post about it since when I did roll on the magic we werent in a position to blast music as I normally love to do, so the comparison doesnt feel completely ready yet, but it has been a very long time since I felt the way that I did.

The molly that i've had for the past 5 or so years hasnt been bad per se, but there was a point in time when I noticed that our experiences would all of a sudden hit a very noticeable drop at the two hour mark. If you dropped another dose before, it would generally be fine, but still eventually, like clockwork, you'd have an immediate drop in the experience and would be left wanting more. Music was still amazing on this stuff, absolutely massive sounds that felt like the roof was blowing off. Absolute eye wiggles and euphoria, there wasn't really a "rolly" aspect. It was a wall of pleasure that had you floored and then it would rug-pull after some time.

Now that I recently rolled on some magic, i'm reminded of what I've been missing and how things contrast. I understand what people mean when they say they feel like theyre "just fucked up" on the non-magic. Its not to say thats a bad thing imo, and my updated hypothesis is that the level of serotonin release is probably similar overall, but at a different cadence, duration, and concentration. The "non-magic" stuff I think just concentrates things at the beginning, like lighting a screaming whistler, it comes non-stop all at once and then fizzles. Magic MDMA though is like lighting a giant sparkler. The term "rolling" actually becomes obviously apparent, you get rolling waves of pleasure for easily the entire duration of 4-5 hours and the kicker is that when your noticeably coming dowm and hit your "lows" of the rolling hills, youre still doing great and clearly "in the zone", you dont have the almost irritable level of thought of hitting another dose like on the non-magic mdma. I was perfectly content with the 120+60 I took and for the first time in a very very long time, didn't really feel compelled to redose (maybe had the thought cross my mind ones or twice, but nothing so yearning). I should also note it just feels incredibly clean and clear headed, I think to an extent, it was harder to get footing to start because I was mentally ready for the "completely fucked up" high.

Now another big variable - feeling sleepy vs not. Non-magic would definitely give me a sleepy fucked up feel, esp at the end of the night you almost wanted to be sleepy because it would blend with the good feeling. I would only want to sit down. The magic? I for once felt like i could actually dance if i were at a show, i didnt feel tweaked, but i was just very clearly and cleanly awake.

Oh, just one more - the next day i felt 100. Great positive outlook, felt ready to take on the day, i ate a huge lunch which normally is close to impossible. The day after that? I was totally dead, felt the blues like i havent since i rolled an irresponsible amount two days in a row years ago. I havent afterglowed like that since my first roll ever.

Now for the potential variables for the skeptics: it has been a long time since ive done a 120+half, ive generally just been hitting something like a 120+120 at 1.5-2hr mark, then I would just get absolutely pasted to the floor. It could be a less is more situation and maybe I just needed to go full+half, this whole time.

I dont think that is the case tho since i would still always seem to hit a point where it would just fall off. I thought of the rolling chart questionnaire while I was rolling this time and if i were to pick what i would consider the end of the roll on non-magic, it was definitely the 2 hour point. However, on the magic? Unquestionably 4+.  Of course this is biased as Im only comparing one dose to one with a booster half....but the drop-off is so non-existent with the magic....That was a clear difference and im convinced that if i only hit the one, it wouldve still gone that long, just not as intense, but maybe it just made me feel/think that...but isnt that the point? Some part of me wonders if you can really call the non-magic mdma rolling....more like blasting.

Anyways, thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. Peace -


----------



## G_Chem

Jmoda said:


> Recently had some magic, major thanks to the person that made it possible (you know who you are). I have to say, I feel a little incomplete, in a sense, to post about it since when I did roll on the magic we werent in a position to blast music as I normally love to do, so the comparison doesnt feel completely ready yet, but it has been a very long time since I felt the way that I did.
> 
> The molly that i've had for the past 5 or so years hasnt been bad per se, but there was a point in time when I noticed that our experiences would all of a sudden hit a very noticeable drop at the two hour mark. If you dropped another dose before, it would generally be fine, but still eventually, like clockwork, you'd have an immediate drop in the experience and would be left wanting more. Music was still amazing on this stuff, absolutely massive sounds that felt like the roof was blowing off. Absolute eye wiggles and euphoria, there wasn't really a "rolly" aspect. It was a wall of pleasure that had you floored and then it would rug-pull after some time.
> 
> Now that I recently rolled on some magic, i'm reminded of what I've been missing and how things contrast. I understand what people mean when they say they feel like theyre "just fucked up" on the non-magic. Its not to say thats a bad thing imo, and my updated hypothesis is that the level of serotonin release is probably similar overall, but at a different cadence, duration, and concentration. The "non-magic" stuff I think just concentrates things at the beginning, like lighting a screaming whistler, it comes non-stop all at once and then fizzles. Magic MDMA though is like lighting a giant sparkler. The term "rolling" actually becomes obviously apparent, you get rolling waves of pleasure for easily the entire duration of 4-5 hours and the kicker is that when your noticeably coming dowm and hit your "lows" of the rolling hills, youre still doing great and clearly "in the zone", you dont have the almost irritable level of thought of hitting another dose like on the non-magic mdma. I was perfectly content with the 120+60 I took and for the first time in a very very long time, didn't really feel compelled to redose (maybe had the thought cross my mind ones or twice, but nothing so yearning). I should also note it just feels incredibly clean and clear headed, I think to an extent, it was harder to get footing to start because I was mentally ready for the "completely fucked up" high.
> 
> Now another big variable - feeling sleepy vs not. Non-magic would definitely give me a sleepy fucked up feel, esp at the end of the night you almost wanted to be sleepy because it would blend with the good feeling. I would only want to sit down. The magic? I for once felt like i could actually dance if i were at a show, i didnt feel tweaked, but i was just very clearly and cleanly awake.
> 
> Oh, just one more - the next day i felt 100. Great positive outlook, felt ready to take on the day, i ate a huge lunch which normally is close to impossible. The day after that? I was totally dead, felt the blues like i havent since i rolled an irresponsible amount two days in a row years ago. I havent afterglowed like that since my first roll ever.
> 
> Now for the potential variables for the skeptics: it has been a long time since ive done a 120+half, ive generally just been hitting something like a 120+120 at 1.5-2hr mark, then I would just get absolutely pasted to the floor. It could be a less is more situation and maybe I just needed to go full+half, this whole time.
> 
> I dont think that is the case tho since i would still always seem to hit a point where it would just fall off. I thought of the rolling chart questionnaire while I was rolling this time and if i were to pick what i would consider the end of the roll on non-magic, it was definitely the 2 hour point. However, on the magic? Unquestionably 4+.  Of course this is biased as Im only comparing one dose to one with a booster half....but the drop-off is so non-existent with the magic....That was a clear difference and im convinced that if i only hit the one, it wouldve still gone that long, just not as intense, but maybe it just made me feel/think that...but isnt that the point? Some part of me wonders if you can really call the non-magic mdma rolling....more like blasting.
> 
> Anyways, thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. Peace -



Great post man, it’s awesome when folks come through for ya like that, I know the feeling 

But yea it’s the duration thing that has always been the biggest indicator of change IMO.  A lot of people seem caught up on pupils, while duration should be looked at equally as hard.

The couple of times I think I took meh over the years that was the main thing that stood out to me. One night in particular I dosed at 930 and by 12 we were coming down, that ain’t right.

Also I like the term differences blasting does seem more appropriate!  True rolling is a 4-6hr (sometimes a tad longer) experience that keeps you completely immersed that entire time with light valleys but no disappointment, not this 2hr knock you in the head peak that drops off to nothing leaving you wanting more.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

@Jmoda, first of all...#jealous. Actually, #superjealous.

Aside from that, your description and definition of meh/magic does not align with my experience, personally. For me, based on how you are describing it, it sounds more like variations in what I would define as magic from my early years of use. I would have short magic experiences and long magic experiences depending on the pill. Some of them were better than others, but for me (personally), if there is music enhancement and euphoria I would group it with magic no matter what the duration is.

My meh experiences never have a peak. It does not feel like the experience is all happening in the early hours. The "abortion" of the experience feels like it occurs during come-up, before a peak is reached. It feels like, "Oh, I am coming up and soon I will peak!" but then the whole vibe jumps off a cliff and dies.

Now, the variation in our experiences could be that all of your product is better than mine, or it could be that you are less sensitive to impurities than I am. This could be where someone's individual receptor and transporter levels becomes really important.


----------



## Jmoda

indigoaura said:


> @Jmoda, first of all...#jealous. Actually, #superjealous.
> 
> Aside from that, your description and definition of meh/magic does not align with my experience, personally. For me, based on how you are describing it, it sounds more like variations in what I would define as magic from my early years of use. I would have short magic experiences and long magic experiences depending on the pill. Some of them were better than others, but for me (personally), if there is music enhancement and euphoria I would group it with magic no matter what the duration is.
> 
> My meh experiences never have a peak. It does not feel like the experience is all happening in the early hours. The "abortion" of the experience feels like it occurs during come-up, before a peak is reached. It feels like, "Oh, I am coming up and soon I will peak!" but then the whole vibe jumps off a cliff and dies.
> 
> Now, the variation in our experiences could be that all of your product is better than mine, or it could be that you are less sensitive to impurities than I am. This could be where someone's individual receptor and transporter levels becomes really important.




Have you ever had an experience where it felt like you were constantly coming up? I ask because i attribute some of the better experiences i've had with this sensation. I guess the difference being that at this point I generally feel like ive clearly "broken through", but from there it still feels constantly like we're goin up and up. 

I guess, what im particularly curious about is if youve had experiences where youve dropped multiple "meh"s and felt like you were roping along comeups...does it just constantly feel like you're getting closer but never break through? How is also your anxiety during this time? Another reason I ask is because with the magic experience, we had one person take a really long time to comeup, they actually couldnt break through until much much later when having a bit of a benzo (i also attribute this to the fact that feeling was different, so i think they were searching for that "fucked up" molly feel).

 Im definitely convinced about impurities affecting ones response and such, even between good products you can feel different characteristics. We had some stuff a long while back that just felt "creamier" every time, for instance, maybe we shouldve blind-tested though ha. Im probably getting into a blackhole here, but it reminds me of how a common trope is how different liquors bring out different experiences for people. It "shouldnt" because its just alcohol...but the impurities....


----------



## indigoaura

Jmoda said:


> Have you ever had an experience where it felt like you were constantly coming up? I ask because i attribute some of the better experiences i've had with this sensation. I guess the difference being that at this point I generally feel like ive clearly "broken through", but from there it still feels constantly like we're goin up and up.
> 
> I guess, what im particularly curious about is if youve had experiences where youve dropped multiple "meh"s and felt like you were roping along comeups...does it just constantly feel like you're getting closer but never break through? How is also your anxiety during this time?



Well, this is all very subjective, obviously. I will do my best to answer your question, but these altered experiences can be a bit hard to pin down and quantify in retrospect.

I would not personally describe my experiences as feeling like I am roping along comeups, as you put it. To me, the very early part of the comeup feels like it might develop into a typical MDMA experience. But, it never develops into that. It develops into this different, flat, sleepy experience. You feel like maybe it would improve if you took more. However, subsequent doses do not bring back the "comeup" feeling or progress the roll into a typical MDMA roll.

As for anxiety...how are you defining anxiety? On magic rolls, there would be a fast, sometimes anxious come-up where you went up fast and hard and it hit you like a train. Sometimes that rapid elevation was rattling. There was a nervous anticipation. On Meh, it is not like that. The comeup is not anxious per say, but the plateau sometimes occupies a negative headspace. I don't know that I would characterize it as anxiety though. As others have commented, it is more focused on just wanting to be alone, or wishing people would stop talking. Anti-social maybe, but not necessarily anxiety.


----------



## NewTopic

G_Chem said:


> Great post man, it’s awesome when folks come through for ya like that, I know the feeling
> 
> But yea it’s the duration thing that has always been the biggest indicator of change IMO.  A lot of people seem caught up on pupils, while duration should be looked at equally as hard.
> 
> The couple of times I think I took meh over the years that was the main thing that stood out to me. One night in particular I dosed at 930 and by 12 we were coming down, that ain’t right.
> 
> Also I like the term differences blasting does seem more appropriate!  True rolling is a 4-6hr (sometimes a tad longer) experience that keeps you completely immersed that entire time with light valleys but no disappointment, not this 2hr knock you in the head peak that drops off to nothing leaving you wanting more.
> 
> -GC


I 100% agree with this statement 
Back when I first did MDMA the length of durantation from only 100mg was a solid 4-6 hours. 

The Meh MDMA every time made me redose constantly and the feeling would only last 1-2 hours. 

Last year when I did MDMA after a year a break 100mg had me rolling 5-6 hours easily and I for the first time in a long time I didnt wan't to redose because I was pretty gone. 

Normally i'd be redosing until 0.5g or more so this was surprising, so there is magic MDMA still around just gotta find it.


----------



## indigoaura

Came across some product that was synthed from piperonal. The product has not been washed yet.

What is odd to me is that the smell is not that far off from a safrole synth. It is honestly very confusing, and makes me re-think some of the product I have encountered over the past few years.

For those of you who have also smelled both, how would you describe the difference in the smell?


----------



## user666

Piperonal has a very pleasant smell.

I think the description below does it justice.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Piperonal has a very nice smell.
> 
> I think the description below does it justice.



It the smell going to vary depending on how the piperonal was made?


----------



## user666

Not for the pure compound but contaminants can alter its aroma.
It does not have enantiomers.


----------



## G_Chem

So safrole is a very unique odor that I can’t quite describe but once you’ve smelt it enough you can’t mistaken it.  The closest common spice I’ve found is Mace (probably cuz its got a little safrole in it) but others say Anise.  Mdp2p is less pungent and spicier.  Piperanol is more vanilla/cherry-like if I’m not mistaken.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> So safrole is a very unique odor that I can’t quite describe but once you’ve smelt it enough you can’t mistaken it.  The closest common spice I’ve found is Mace (probably cuz its got a little safrole in it) but others say Anise.  Mdp2p is less pungent and spicier.  Piperanol is more vanilla/cherry-like if I’m not mistaken.
> 
> -GC



At this point, it has been 15+ years since I have definitively smelled safrole. 

I have encountered products that smell, and for some of them, I assumed the smell was safrole. Doubting that now.

Sometimes the smell seems more like a chemical root beer than I recall pills smelling like. Almost like the smell was added afterwards or something. 

Right now, I have three different products that smell. One is the piperonal synth. One claimed to be a safrole synth, but honestly, it smells like the piperonal. The other is a very dark MDA. The MDA smells different than the other two, and probably smells closest to the old pills.


----------



## G_Chem

indigoaura said:


> At this point, it has been 15+ years since I have definitively smelled safrole.
> 
> I have encountered products that smell, and for some of them, I assumed the smell was safrole. Doubting that now.
> 
> Sometimes the smell seems more like a chemical root beer than I recall pills smelling like. Almost like the smell was added afterwards or something.
> 
> Right now, I have three different products that smell. One is the piperonal synth. One claimed to be a safrole synth, but honestly, it smells like the piperonal. The other is a very dark MDA. The MDA smells different than the other two, and probably smells closest to the old pills.



That makes sense as MDA is very often made via safrole, not always but in the US it’s common for MDA to be impure and smell of safrole.  The last batch I came across was a brown crystal that smelled of safrole.

MDMA is probably often sold as safrole made when it isn’t.

I had the pleasure of being in the presence of safrole over a decade ago (back when you could still buy sassy on eBay) and once you’ve been subjected to the smell long enough it’ll never leave. Spill a tiny bit on the carpet and it’ll permeate your very being for eternity.  My girl can’t stwnd the smell now cuz of it.

-GC


----------



## user666

I tried to do a column chromatography of 10g of brown Meh MDMA HCl from DW today.
I was alone at work and could play with it without anyone asking questions.

I have to report a failure of the separation because of two major reasons.
First, I did not use a silica gel with a  fluorescent additive in a UV transparent column and I could not see what was going on except for the colored impurities.
I did not use enough tubes for the collection and dividing/group fractions blindly or with staining afterwards.

The Second reason being, that the flow of the solvent/sample front through the column was too slow because gravity alone was not strong enough to make it move any faster.
Because of the slow flow I was able to see the brown impurities to diffuse over a volume much larger than I intended.  I should have used compressed air to push the solvent front faster, like 5cm/min (1inch/min),  but by the time I learned my lesson my shift was over and coworkers were on their way to relieve me.

I though I would share this failure so others can learn from it.

OTOH:  I have several Guinea Pigs ready to evaluate the separated fraction "in vivo", if I am ever successful with it.


----------



## ThreePointCircle

user666 said:


> I tried to do a column chromatography of 10g of brown Meh MDMA HCl from DW today.



Awesome to hear you had a go.  What solvent system did you use?


----------



## majk13

majk13 said:


> IMG 20200919 130800 — Postimages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> postimg.cc


I tested them two weeks ago, but now I have time to write something.

I took half the pill. 30 minutes after consumption, a pleasant feeling of lightness and bliss.
After an hour! the effect began to weaken and I immediately wanted to throw in more, I ate another half and again a feeling of bliss and lightness. Overall the best mdma from all the meh I consumed in the last year but still a lot missing from the best I had in 2003-2007 (red hearts, mitsubishi, white and red mtv and MX)
There is a lack of happiness and vividness of colors and that was something that made me love mdma.

 My wife who rolled with me had similar feelings. Pupils at 50% -60%. 
Another disadvantage is that it takes a long time to recover from the adventure with modern mdma ... but it can also be the fault of my age


----------



## G_Chem

majk13 said:


> I tested them two weeks ago, but now I have time to write something.
> 
> I took half the pill. 30 minutes after consumption, a pleasant feeling of lightness and bliss.
> After an hour! the effect began to weaken and I immediately wanted to throw in more, I ate another half and again a feeling of bliss and lightness. Overall the best mdma from all the meh I consumed in the last year but still a lot missing from the best I had in 2003-2007 (red hearts, mitsubishi, white and red mtv and MX)
> There is a lack of happiness and vividness of colors and that was something that made me love mdma.
> 
> My wife who rolled with me had similar feelings. Pupils at 50% -60%.
> Another disadvantage is that it takes a long time to recover from the adventure with modern mdma ... but it can also be the fault of my age



 I can attest that the days after actually get easier in my “old” age.

When I first started rolling I’d often take a week off afterwards cuz I wanted a good amount of time to chill between experience and real life.  I wasn’t necessarily unable to do life but definitely preferred not to.

These days I just need 1 good day of rest afterwards and I can head back to work feeling pretty damn chipper the rest of the week.

My only other thought is maybe the product I was getting in my early days as a kid wasn’t as pure hence the longer recovery times, but either way with high purity MDMA used correctly it only seems to get easier.

I notice a similar pattern with people around me, could also be cuz we have a ton more responsibilities too and no time to put a week pause on life lol.

But yea festivals as a youngin meant a solid week after of puddling on the couch, but I can do a festival roll two nights and be to work on Mon or Tuesday much easier these days.


Sad news though, my experience that I’ve been planning all summer got squashed a week before by a new health diagnosis.  I won’t be using MDMA now for at least a year if not more :/ A bitter pill to swallow with all the amazing product I’ve gotten recently. (And not the kind I was hoping..)

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

Oh no! @G_Chem, so sorry to read this.  I hope you recover quickly.


----------



## fasterfb

G_Chem said:


> I can attest that the days after actually get easier in my “old” age.



Same. I'm in my 60's now, and I just feel tired the day after. After that, I'm back to normal.



G_Chem said:


> my experience that I’ve been planning all summer got squashed a week before by a new health diagnosis. I won’t be using MDMA now for at least a year if not more :/



Ah that is sad news @G_Chem I hope it's nothing too serious. Get well soon!


----------



## ThreePointCircle

All the best @G_Chem, I hope you get better soon


----------



## user666

ThreePointCircle said:


> Awesome to hear you had a go.  What solvent system did you use?


The same as in the Lee paper.
Water 90% and Acetonitrile 10% ( both containing 0.1% formic acid (v/v).


----------



## user666

What is the estimated number of MDMA users in your country or worldwide ?
I would appreciate links to any credible data about this.


----------



## Sopp1

Have been following this post for some time. Either mdma dont work on me or i have never had good mdma. 
I have been thinking that maybe Hamilton Morris could be interested in this subject . 
Hamilton Morris released a video on YouTube where someone makes mdma, dmt and more. They even check animal brains to see if they find dmt. Maybe it would be interesting for some of you. Not sure if im allowed to share the youtube link. 
But the video is called “the chemistry of hamilton`s pharmacopeia” so its easy to find.


----------



## G_Chem

Sopp1 said:


> Have been following this post for some time. Either mdma dont work on me or i have never had good mdma.
> I have been thinking that maybe Hamilton Morris could be interested in this subject .
> Hamilton Morris released a video on YouTube where someone makes mdma, dmt and more. They even check animal brains to see if they find dmt. Maybe it would be interesting for some of you. Not sure if im allowed to share the youtube link.
> But the video is called “the chemistry of hamilton`s pharmacopeia” so its easy to find.



Na he doesn’t give a shit..

What’s been your not so great experience with MDMA?

-GC


----------



## Sopp1

they have been okey. I can have good open conversations, but not that love and euphoria people are talking about. 
Felt the magic once on a hippie flip for maybe 15 minutes. I have felt the magic og mushrooms and ayahuasca. 
So now i take it with psychedelics when i dont want to have a challenging experience. 

But I suspect the problem could be me. Emotional or lack of serotonin. I often get this “knot” in my stomach that i feel is standing in the way of something(when on mdma). But i have never been able to “release“ it or figur out what It is. 
I have had depression for the last 8 years. Did ayahuasca 3,5 years ago that did alot to me, felt love like never before. 
And i was more open and had more feelings for a long time, but it faded over time and know it feels like I’m back inside my prison for good. 

Is there a letting go element like with mushrooms and lsd? Letting go doesn’t come easy for me.


----------



## user666

G_Chem said:


> Na he doesn’t give a shit..


I think so too.
As far as I remmeber there were several people here that tried to contact Hamilton about this issue and he totally ignored them.


----------



## G_Chem

Sopp1 said:


> they have been okey. I can have good open conversations, but not that love and euphoria people are talking about.
> Felt the magic once on a hippie flip for maybe 15 minutes. I have felt the magic og mushrooms and ayahuasca.
> So now i take it with psychedelics when i dont want to have a challenging experience.
> 
> But I suspect the problem could be me. Emotional or lack of serotonin. I often get this “knot” in my stomach that i feel is standing in the way of something(when on mdma). But i have never been able to “release“ it or figur out what It is.
> I have had depression for the last 8 years. Did ayahuasca 3,5 years ago that did alot to me, felt love like never before.
> And i was more open and had more feelings for a long time, but it faded over time and know it feels like I’m back inside my prison for good.
> 
> Is there a letting go element like with mushrooms and lsd? Letting go doesn’t come easy for me.



Most often no, it’s the reason a lot of different types of people really take to the drug.  It’s malleable, and reliable (or was..).  The type of drug you can take anywhere and it’ll be a good time.  Of course once you’ve become veteran level it’s nice to get set and setting right to maximize the experience you only get rarely, but in the beginning especially you should get the full effects no matter what.

My first time trying it I was a depressed closed off mess myself and it showed me what love and happiness really are...  In fact my first roll is probably my only true ++++ on the Shulgin scale experience, life changing.  I know others who’ve said the same thing.

Nowadays people’s first roll is just whatever, back then it was like this big event cuz it was likely going to be one of the peak experiences that person has ever had.  There was a lot more excitement around giving people that first experience because it was so profound, and of course there’s nothing more boosting to a roll than being around a newbie rolling for the first time.

I’ve had quite a few people have their first or best roll with me, it feels good.

-GC


----------



## FuckinAcidMan

Sopp1 said:


> they have been okey. I can have good open conversations, but not that love and euphoria people are talking about.
> Felt the magic once on a hippie flip for maybe 15 minutes. I have felt the magic og mushrooms and ayahuasca.
> So now i take it with psychedelics when i dont want to have a challenging experience.
> 
> But I suspect the problem could be me. Emotional or lack of serotonin. I often get this “knot” in my stomach that i feel is standing in the way of something(when on mdma). But i have never been able to “release“ it or figur out what It is.
> I have had depression for the last 8 years. Did ayahuasca 3,5 years ago that did alot to me, felt love like never before.
> And i was more open and had more feelings for a long time, but it faded over time and know it feels like I’m back inside my prison for good.
> 
> Is there a letting go element like with mushrooms and lsd? Letting go doesn’t come easy for me.


Good MDxx makes you forget you were ever trying to hold on, it would be a struggle to not let go of worries and hatred and doubt for me personally. But I have only started up again recently after a 7 year abstinence from all amphetamine type stimulants.


----------



## Hilopsilo

Sopp1 said:


> they have been okey. I can have good open conversations, but not that love and euphoria people are talking about.
> Felt the magic once on a hippie flip for maybe 15 minutes. I have felt the magic og mushrooms and ayahuasca.
> So now i take it with psychedelics when i dont want to have a challenging experience.
> 
> But I suspect the problem could be me. Emotional or lack of serotonin*. I often get this “knot” in my stomach that i feel is standing in the way of something(when on mdma)*.* But i have never been able to “release“ it or figur out what It is.*
> I have had depression for the last 8 years. Did ayahuasca 3,5 years ago that did alot to me, felt love like never before.
> And i was more open and had more feelings for a long time, but it faded over time and know it feels like I’m back inside my prison for good.
> 
> _Is there a letting go element like with mushrooms and lsd? Letting go doesn’t come easy for me._



There is sort of an element of letting go, but if the dose is sufficient, MDMA will just sort of force your hand, its inevitable and thats the MDMA we know and love. With sufficient and proper MDMA, the positive-emotional-buildup as it starts to take effect will overpower and likely gain majority control over your thoughts and willpower. Just judging by how incredibly uncomfortable and shitty my MDMA comeups are ("meh" or "magic"), I imagine not enough could leave you in that intense limbo state where you're resisting and it doesn't fully over power you (then dying back into a bit more enjoyable but lackluster experience). My MehDMA experiences can be described exactly as that; usual stressful comeup, that doesn't quite burst, leads to this uncomfortable intensity (positive doesn't overwhelm the uncomfy), and then it mellows out into a more enjoyable but still wanting experience. It's like, I let my knuckles go white holding on since the MDMA couldn't pull me down, eventually it pries me loose sort of, but its lost velocity and wasn't strong enough of a force.

Bolded above, this is what a come-up on MDMA can feel like for me, and then it sort of (hopefully) builds to burst. While it could be related to this magic versus meh MDMA, what you're describing sounds like what I imagine an insufficient dosage is. It just doesn't quite bust and leaves you with a bit of MDMA blue balls. I think this is exactly why lose-dose MDMA has a bad-rap, and just reading, the similarities between MehDMA experiences described in here and low-dose MDMA are pretty substantial. Low dose and "lost the magic" also have a lot of similarities, just reading. I know there plenty of anecdotes to go around that go against this as well, but food for thought.

On another related note, thread in general:

In stuff I've mentioned on here, I've certainly had friends where taking so-called mehDMA and upping the dose still doesn't do the trick, potentially ruling out weak or diluted product. My own experiences and the experiences of others around me with the same "Meh" product compared to other "Magic" product, the differences, it makes Meh versus Magic seem incredibly and almost obviously real. I won't get into this, I've written about it extensively in this thread if you want the details... In the moment, y'know what we all can remember about those times, the difference feels like night & day, it really does.

BUT...

These instances of my friends taking extra of the MehDMA, was extra _after the fact;_ an attempt to redeem what had already reared its head as a weak roll. So redosing way more, even early on, can't truly be the same as all at once. As in, I can't say for certain that wasn't the case. But I always take 100mg (weighed myself, or by someone I watch do it or trust), so sometimes I wonder if my own MehDMA experience was just with product of such quality that 100mg of it doesn't cross some threshold. To this day, my strongest experience with MDMA was a cap of colorless-scentless MDMA I didn't get to weigh out from someone i didn't know, in fact I even eyeball-removed some since it thought it was looking large. This was also the strongest experience with MDMA for a lot of people I was with. As in, its also quite possible I took, we took, well over our usual dose if the caps were more than the assumed 100mg. The only experience tied with this was confirmed 100mg of colorless-scentless MDMA weighed by someone I trust who had set aside this specific batch of MDMA as their own experiences and reports they received about it were exceptionally and out-of-the-ordinary good.

Research is well and good, this is an interesting topic ive invested a lot of time into and learned a lot, but I fear this is becoming a scapegoat for other various reasons some people cannot enjoy MDMA like they want to, have in the past, or have been told it should be like. If someone pointed a gun to my head, and said,_ "if I give the MDMA you KNOW is 100% Magic, to the people who have been trying different MDMA batches for years on this forum that all doesn't work because its supposedly just Meh, will it work for them or not?"_ I'd gamble with no, its not gonna work for them. I have friends who can take, what is no less than what my large friend group of experienced psychonauts can say without a doubt is THAT GOOD SHIT, and still not have a good time for one reason or another.

EDIT: last thought here; it is 100% true across everyone I know, once you take two, one doesn't cut it anymore, no matter how long you wait. I have friends who actually weigh less than me, who early on took 2 caps or 200mg and since then 100mg is never enough.


----------



## Jmoda

Hilopsilo said:


> There is sort of an element of letting go, but if the dose is sufficient, MDMA will just sort of force your hand, its inevitable and thats the MDMA we know and love. With sufficient and proper MDMA, the positive-emotional-buildup as it starts to take effect will overpower and likely gain majority control over your thoughts and willpower. Just judging by how incredibly uncomfortable and shitty my MDMA comeups are ("meh" or "magic"), I imagine not enough could leave you in that intense limbo state where you're resisting and it doesn't fully over power you (then dying back into a bit more enjoyable but lackluster experience). My MehDMA experiences can be described exactly as that; usual stressful comeup, that doesn't quite burst, leads to this uncomfortable intensity (positive doesn't overwhelm the uncomfy), and then it mellows out into a more enjoyable but still wanting experience. It's like, I let my knuckles go white holding on since the MDMA couldn't pull me down, eventually it pries me loose sort of, but its lost velocity and wasn't strong enough of a force.
> 
> Bolded above, this is what a come-up on MDMA can feel like for me, and then it sort of (hopefully) builds to burst. While it could be related to this magic versus meh MDMA, what you're describing sounds like what I imagine an insufficient dosage is. It just doesn't quite bust and leaves you with a bit of MDMA blue balls. I think this is exactly why lose-dose MDMA has a bad-rap, and just reading, the similarities between MehDMA experiences described in here and low-dose MDMA are pretty substantial. Low dose and "lost the magic" also have a lot of similarities, just reading. I know there plenty of anecdotes to go around that go against this as well, but food for thought.
> 
> On another related note, thread in general:
> 
> In stuff I've mentioned on here, I've certainly had friends where taking so-called mehDMA and upping the dose still doesn't do the trick, potentially ruling out weak or diluted product. My own experiences and the experiences of others around me with the same "Meh" product compared to other "Magic" product, the differences, it makes Meh versus Magic seem incredibly and almost obviously real. I won't get into this, I've written about it extensively in this thread if you want the details... In the moment, y'know what we all can remember about those times, the difference feels like night & day, it really does.
> 
> BUT...
> 
> These instances of my friends taking extra of the MehDMA, was extra _after the fact;_ an attempt to redeem what had already reared its head as a weak roll. So redosing way more, even early on, can't truly be the same as all at once. As in, I can't say for certain that wasn't the case. But I always take 100mg (weighed myself, or by someone I watch do it or trust), so sometimes I wonder if my own MehDMA experience was just with product of such quality that 100mg of it doesn't cross some threshold. To this day, my strongest experience with MDMA was a cap of colorless-scentless MDMA I didn't get to weigh out from someone i didn't know, in fact I even eyeball-removed some since it thought it was looking large. This was also the strongest experience with MDMA for a lot of people I was with. As in, its also quite possible I took, we took, well over our usual dose if the caps were more than the assumed 100mg. The only experience tied with this was confirmed 100mg of colorless-scentless MDMA weighed by someone I trust who had set aside this specific batch of MDMA as their own experiences and reports they received about it were exceptionally and out-of-the-ordinary good.
> 
> Research is well and good, this is an interesting topic ive invested a lot of time into and learned a lot, but I fear this is becoming a scapegoat for other various reasons some people cannot enjoy MDMA like they want to, have in the past, or have been told it should be like. If someone pointed a gun to my head, and said,_ "if I give the MDMA you KNOW is 100% Magic, to the people who have been trying different MDMA batches for years on this forum that all doesn't work because its supposedly just Meh, will it work for them or not?"_ I'd gamble with no, its not gonna work for them. I have friends who can take, what is no less than what my large friend group of experienced psychonauts can say without a doubt is THAT GOOD SHIT, and still not have a good time for one reason or another.
> 
> EDIT: last thought here; it is 100% true across everyone I know, once you take two, one doesn't cut it anymore, no matter how long you wait. I have friends who actually weigh less than me, who early on took 2 caps or 200mg and since then 100mg is never enough.




Can people expand on their experiences with comeups? I feel like ive heard/read about it being difficult, but I feel like this contrasts sharply with my experience. I definitely get nausea, but I kind of love the comeup on MDMA, its that excitement you get creeping up to the peak of a roller coaster...but with eaves of euphoric warmth setting in.


----------



## fasterfb

Jmoda said:


> Can people expand on their experiences with comeups? I feel like ive heard/read about it being difficult, but I feel like this contrasts sharply with my experience. I definitely get nausea, but I kind of love the comeup on MDMA, its that excitement you get creeping up to the peak of a roller coaster...but with eaves of euphoric warmth setting in.



Personally, I don't love the comeup (don't hate it either), but prefer the peak state after the MDMA "opens". 
Lately, I've been taking a small dose of 5-MAPB beforehand. It smooths out the comeup and makes the peak last longer. It's a great combo. Thanks to @G_Chem for recommending this combo.


----------



## Jmoda

fasterfb said:


> Personally, I don't love the comeup (don't hate it either), but prefer the peak state after the MDMA "opens".
> Lately, I've been taking a small dose of 5-MAPB beforehand. It smooths out the comeup and makes the peak last longer. It's a great combo. Thanks to @G_Chem for recommending this combo.



Definitely trying this combo next


----------



## Negi

user666 said:


> What is the estimated number of MDMA users in your country or worldwide ?
> I would appreciate links to any credible data about this.


You can find various surveys, but for the most accurate results I would recommend looking at wastewater data.
See: https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.drugalcdep.2020.108315


> The dose of MDMA is roughly 100 mg (Zuccato et al., 2008). Using the rationale outlined above, approximately 8-15 doses of MDMA/day/1000 people were calculated for the festival week, compared to 0.1-0.4 doses/day/1000 people for the non-festival weeks


And https://eprints.qut.edu.au/98783/1/Manuscript for e-Print.pdf


> Consumption of MDMA was at a similar level, with the recorded daily amount ranging from 12 to 3244 mg and the yearly average from 69-387 mg/day in the studied urban catchment (Table 1). Figs.1 and 2 indicate that there was no meaningful trend in cocaine or MDMA consumption during the study period (2009-2015). Also, there was no significant difference in per capita consumption of these two drugs between 2009 and 2015.
> (All numbers are per 1000 people)



MDMA use still seems to be very closely associated with large music events:




It will be fascinating to see the 2020 data, Will people simply skip using MDMA without the events to go to, or will the use start to spread out throughout the year?


----------



## fasterfb

Jmoda said:


> Definitely trying this combo next



How has your experience with 5-MAPB gone so far? Interested in hearing what you think of it.
So far, I've been using it in small amounts (20-30 mg) to improve the experience when using my mediumMDMA batch.
I haven't had a higher dose 5-MAPB experience yet.


----------



## Jmoda

fasterfb said:


> How has your experience with 5-MAPB gone so far? Interested in hearing what you think of it.
> So far, I've been using it in small amounts (20-30 mg) to improve the experience when using my mediumMDMA batch.
> I haven't had a higher dose 5-MAPB experience yet.



I have a good, but difficult dilemma. I just rolled a few weeks back. I have 5mapb and 6apb to try. So the question is, after 3m of break, do i roll again on mdma. Try 5mapb solo, 6apb solo, 5mapb/6apb combo or 5mapb/mdma combo......the 3m break proposition is certainly tough


----------



## NewTopic

Guys, off topic a bit. 

But was it somewhere I read that MDMA test kits used to come up slightly different colors to the tests now ? 

For instance a blue hue rather than pure black etc ? 
I can't remember if I read that somewhere so just wanted to see if anyone knew.


----------



## trogere

fasterfb said:


> Personally, I don't love the comeup (don't hate it either), but prefer the peak state after the MDMA "opens".
> Lately, I've been taking a small dose of 5-MAPB beforehand. It smooths out the comeup and makes the peak last longer. It's a great combo. Thanks to @G_Chem for recommending this combo.



I really enjoyed tiny bumps of ket during the come-up of MDMA to help with the anxiety.


----------



## G_Chem

NewTopic said:


> Guys, off topic a bit.
> 
> But was it somewhere I read that MDMA test kits used to come up slightly different colors to the tests now ?
> 
> For instance a blue hue rather than pure black etc ?
> I can't remember if I read that somewhere so just wanted to see if anyone knew.



Yup you read that here.  In the 90’s the Marquis reagent went black with a blue indigo hue, this is evident in the old EZ Test Color Chart as well as reagent reports from that era.

Right around 2000 the color fairly rapidly changed from this black/blue to the more common purple to dark purple/black.  From my research many users of the time felt there was a difference between product which tested black/blue and product which tested purple, they’d often equate the purple product as being MDEA even though it wasn’t.

Eventually it was forgotten but then we had a similar thing happen around 2010 where again there was a change, this time from purple/black to just straight black with maybe a hint of brown.

I’d argue though since 2010 there’s been more color variation overall than any time before in the Marquis reagent.  Lots of product still goes purple/black depending on location.


I used to theorize one could maybe see a difference with the Marquis but I personally can’t find any pattern usable to the general public, I’ve had batches goes straight black, purple, and now a few with Indigo that all were “magic.”

That said, it’s possible some other reagent may be used to find the culprit but I don’t have enough for sure “meh” product to figure it out or the time these days being sick n shit :/

Generally it’s reported that straight to black is most likely meh (especially some brown in there), purple to black more likely good, and black with an indigo hue likely being the best.

-GC


----------



## NewTopic

G_Chem said:


> Yup you read that here.  In the 90’s the Marquis reagent went black with a blue indigo hue, this is evident in the old EZ Test Color Chart as well as reagent reports from that era.
> 
> Right around 2000 the color fairly rapidly changed from this black/blue to the more common purple to dark purple/black.  From my research many users of the time felt there was a difference between product which tested black/blue and product which tested purple, they’d often equate the purple product as being MDEA even though it wasn’t.
> 
> Eventually it was forgotten but then we had a similar thing happen around 2010 where again there was a change, this time from purple/black to just straight black with maybe a hint of brown.
> 
> I’d argue though since 2010 there’s been more color variation overall than any time before in the Marquis reagent.  Lots of product still goes purple/black depending on location.
> 
> 
> I used to theorize one could maybe see a difference with the Marquis but I personally can’t find any pattern usable to the general public, I’ve had batches goes straight black, purple, and now a few with Indigo that all were “magic.”
> 
> That said, it’s possible some other reagent may be used to find the culprit but I don’t have enough for sure “meh” product to figure it out or the time these days being sick n shit :/
> 
> Generally it’s reported that straight to black is most likely meh (especially some brown in there), purple to black more likely good, and black with an indigo hue likely being the best.
> 
> -GC



That's what I thought ! 

Because recently i've got some new samples of a range of MDMA that has been highly regarded and from memory around 2 years ago most of the tests went straight to black and was the meh mdma. 

This product was purple to black for all 3 samples from different sources. But definately wasen't deep black either, still kept alot of the purple hue. 

I'll post some photos when I get the chance for comparison and see if i've got any photos from previous years

I also noticed on test charts some or the other tests have changed from green/ blue to green /black for the mecke I believe but the results ive taken for these ones have deep blue hue so the latest charts don't entirely match.


----------



## AutoTripper

G_Chem said:


> Yup you read that here.  In the 90’s the Marquis reagent went black with a blue indigo hue, this is evident in the old EZ Test Color Chart as well as reagent reports from that era.
> 
> Right around 2000 the color fairly rapidly changed from this black/blue to the more common purple to dark purple/black.  From my research many users of the time felt there was a difference between product which tested black/blue and product which tested purple, they’d often equate the purple product as being MDEA even though it wasn’t.
> 
> Eventually it was forgotten but then we had a similar thing happen around 2010 where again there was a change, this time from purple/black to just straight black with maybe a hint of brown.
> 
> I’d argue though since 2010 there’s been more color variation overall than any time before in the Marquis reagent.  Lots of product still goes purple/black depending on location.
> 
> 
> I used to theorize one could maybe see a difference with the Marquis but I personally can’t find any pattern usable to the general public, I’ve had batches goes straight black, purple, and now a few with Indigo that all were “magic.”
> 
> That said, it’s possible some other reagent may be used to find the culprit but I don’t have enough for sure “meh” product to figure it out or the time these days being sick n shit :/
> 
> Generally it’s reported that straight to black is most likely meh (especially some brown in there), purple to black more likely good, and black with an indigo hue likely being the best.
> 
> -GC


Easy man. Just been catching up here first time in months. First, very sorry you had that deflating current diagnosis, I know how elevated you felt after you previously achieved a good stable ground through hard work, commitment, will power and I imagine numerous forms of treatment.

Havr you ever considered a rife machine? I swear on my life, this stuff is totally legit and works miracles, probably about the best avenue for any type of cancer treatment.

We are actually going to get one ourselves. My own condition has dropped from the best I was in 15 years last November, and again in January....to by far the worst it has been, this year has just messed so many of us up, especially with existing longterm illness and severe anxiety disorders going through the roof.

It's not over for sure, but I am virtually fighting for life with every bit of energy and strength I don't even have currently.

Im sure I had "the" virus at least twice already, possibly a 3rd.

I previously knocked out the very severe case of it using the electromedicine devices which have genuinely kept me living for years.

Only that way have I been able to continually treat, lower and clear my exceptionally severe respiratory infections, due to no immune system.

Covid took more aggressive, repeated trestment for me personally than any other infection I have battled since 2005, hundreds and hundreds.

I would not have survived without the use of this amazing device which can very powerfully and immediately kill and knock out localised infection, anywhere in the body, I swear that on my life:






						BioElectric's Electromedicine Devices
					

BioElectric's electromedicine devices include the herpes zapper, candida zapper, Bob Beck blood purifier, oscillating magnetic field generator and other  electromedicine devices for treatment of viral, fungal and bacterial disease.




					dragonfly75.com
				




Here is the homepage. This is fully legit, life saving stuff I swear when tackling infection.  This guy, the FDA kept imprisoning him for helping so many sick people, until he moved to Paraguay to continue serving humanity.

He beat cancer himself a few times. Here is his homepage, he gives interesting alternative insight into alternative treatments for cancer and many other conditions.

I owe this man my life, on my heartvI would not have survived the continuous onslaught of life threatening respiratory infections due to my lack of immune system.

Every new severe infection I have managed to quickly lower and clear.
The treatment brings instant relief every time.

I also began using a different, but more powerful, traditional "zapper" recently, called Parazapper. Again, 100% legit I swear and this is officially the best zapper available.

It definitely helped me best very severe case of covid.
But a 1 in 200 chance, there must be a rarenand unusual break in one of the wires.

I stopped using the parazapper 4 days ago until repaired, and I can testify it made me feel enormously better and stronger.  This is the model I have, but there is one slightly enhanced one called the MY3.

Mine is the UZI- 3c, virtually as effective, just not to the same, utmost highest level of accuracy by a touch and the MY3 has more modes and frequencies built in.

Just a little more advanced and comprehensive.
My device: https://huldaclarkparazapper.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi/UZI-3

I was so impressed with the initial results, my mum and I have ordered one each of the MY3's too, in the buiding phase right now,

But we are definitely going to get the Rife machine too.

Spooky 2 it is called.  There is another one called GB-4000, recommended is the MOPA and plasma tube, it is a stand alone Rife machine, but has excellent results and testimonies for fully clearing cancer, no side effects.

We are going to get the Spooky 2,,which is a rife machine and bio resonance machine in one. It works remotely too, by quantum entanglement, so you can be anywhere and it will be working on you on the frequencies and selected modes.

You can put your finger nail on there and it reads your own dna, scans your body for frequencies to pick up all sorts of issues, and hits them with the corresponding frequency which is the magical essence of how this technology works.

You can put any remedy, herb etc on the scale and the Spooky 2 will transmit the frequency of it through your body, remotely, wherever you are.

I thought I could even put my Dutch Bowser MDMA pills on there as an experiment.
Im sure I will never take them I just think my body will react very allergically, and at best it would be an intensely uncomfortable and prologed experience or worse.

@G_Chem Im sorry mate I don't mean to patronize or push on you. Just want to help, and I truly believe in this stuff and it's potential.  

On topic post coming right below....


----------



## AutoTripper

So yeah, @G_Chem just s few thoughts to chime in on this after skimming through recent discussions, randomly...

Your comments on MDEA vs MDMA and marquis blue, black, purple variations.

We know for a fact that MDEA was very widespread in the 90's pills, often in combo with MDMA, even in the classic OG white doves.

I personally believe that after 2000, MDEA became much less common and nearly all good pills were pure MDMA alone, or MDA.

Secondly- the whole myridasis(?) debate.

I would say, that,with old school legit magic MDMA pills up until early 2005, 150mg max is all it would take for like, 95% pupil dilation, true black saucers, in virtually any light setting. 100 mg may be sufficient. 80% on over 100mg, doesn't even come close to fitting the original bill, IMO.

Oh yeah finally- that saffrole odor! Never forget it. It was spinetingling, and intoxicating just by odor, in a psychoactive way, like when you sniff some seriously strong weed and you can feel the psychoactive power of it.


----------



## transending

All I can say is TEST TEST TEST that way you will know at least if it is an MDXX type drug at all at least. In my experience I have gotten meth more than anything else in presses. I had my first roll in 2013 so I don't know how it was in the good old days.


----------



## AutoTripper

transending said:


> All I can say is TEST TEST TEST that way you will know at least if it is an MDXX type drug at all at least. In my experience I have gotten meth more than anything else in presses. I had my first roll in 2013 so I don't know how it was in the good old days.


It was freaking incredible my friend, otherworldly.


----------



## AutoTripper

@G_Chem sorry I think I excluded the Michael Forrest home page link:

http://www.dragonfly75.com/eng/MEDC.html


----------



## indigoaura

Hilopsilo said:


> There is sort of an element of letting go, but if the dose is sufficient, MDMA will just sort of force your hand, its inevitable and thats the MDMA we know and love. With sufficient and proper MDMA, the positive-emotional-buildup as it starts to take effect will overpower and likely gain majority control over your thoughts and willpower. Just judging by how incredibly uncomfortable and shitty my MDMA comeups are ("meh" or "magic"), I imagine not enough could leave you in that intense limbo state where you're resisting and it doesn't fully over power you (then dying back into a bit more enjoyable but lackluster experience). My MehDMA experiences can be described exactly as that; usual stressful comeup, that doesn't quite burst, leads to this uncomfortable intensity (positive doesn't overwhelm the uncomfy), and then it mellows out into a more enjoyable but still wanting experience. It's like, I let my knuckles go white holding on since the MDMA couldn't pull me down, eventually it pries me loose sort of, but its lost velocity and wasn't strong enough of a force.
> 
> Bolded above, this is what a come-up on MDMA can feel like for me, and then it sort of (hopefully) builds to burst. While it could be related to this magic versus meh MDMA, what you're describing sounds like what I imagine an insufficient dosage is. It just doesn't quite bust and leaves you with a bit of MDMA blue balls. I think this is exactly why lose-dose MDMA has a bad-rap, and just reading, the similarities between MehDMA experiences described in here and low-dose MDMA are pretty substantial. Low dose and "lost the magic" also have a lot of similarities, just reading. I know there plenty of anecdotes to go around that go against this as well, but food for thought.
> 
> On another related note, thread in general:
> 
> In stuff I've mentioned on here, I've certainly had friends where taking so-called mehDMA and upping the dose still doesn't do the trick, potentially ruling out weak or diluted product. My own experiences and the experiences of others around me with the same "Meh" product compared to other "Magic" product, the differences, it makes Meh versus Magic seem incredibly and almost obviously real. I won't get into this, I've written about it extensively in this thread if you want the details... In the moment, y'know what we all can remember about those times, the difference feels like night & day, it really does.
> 
> BUT...
> 
> These instances of my friends taking extra of the MehDMA, was extra _after the fact;_ an attempt to redeem what had already reared its head as a weak roll. So redosing way more, even early on, can't truly be the same as all at once. As in, I can't say for certain that wasn't the case. But I always take 100mg (weighed myself, or by someone I watch do it or trust), so sometimes I wonder if my own MehDMA experience was just with product of such quality that 100mg of it doesn't cross some threshold. To this day, my strongest experience with MDMA was a cap of colorless-scentless MDMA I didn't get to weigh out from someone i didn't know, in fact I even eyeball-removed some since it thought it was looking large. This was also the strongest experience with MDMA for a lot of people I was with. As in, its also quite possible I took, we took, well over our usual dose if the caps were more than the assumed 100mg. The only experience tied with this was confirmed 100mg of colorless-scentless MDMA weighed by someone I trust who had set aside this specific batch of MDMA as their own experiences and reports they received about it were exceptionally and out-of-the-ordinary good.
> 
> Research is well and good, this is an interesting topic ive invested a lot of time into and learned a lot, but I fear this is becoming a scapegoat for other various reasons some people cannot enjoy MDMA like they want to, have in the past, or have been told it should be like. If someone pointed a gun to my head, and said,_ "if I give the MDMA you KNOW is 100% Magic, to the people who have been trying different MDMA batches for years on this forum that all doesn't work because its supposedly just Meh, will it work for them or not?"_ I'd gamble with no, its not gonna work for them. I have friends who can take, what is no less than what my large friend group of experienced psychonauts can say without a doubt is THAT GOOD SHIT, and still not have a good time for one reason or another.
> 
> EDIT: last thought here; it is 100% true across everyone I know, once you take two, one doesn't cut it anymore, no matter how long you wait. I have friends who actually weigh less than me, who early on took 2 caps or 200mg and since then 100mg is never enough.



I have wondered about all of this as well. I have tried escalating the dosage from 100 mg to 120 mg, and then to 135 mg. More recently, with the product that was 80% purity I did 150 mg (in weight) to try to make certain I hit the 120 mg (in actual product). Wondering if I should try raising it more. However, a re-dose used to work to make a low-dose pill reach the peak. It never seemed to matter before that the re-dose was taken later, it still caused the peak.

I would personally be convinced that I have personal issues if a trusted MDMA user gave me something that was "magic" to them and I experienced "meh." Or, I would be convinced it is me if I ever saw someone (anyone) rolling hard off product that I found to be "meh." So far, neither of those things has happened. The "reviews" of the meh product are all pretty consistent, with people making the same comments on the effects. There was even a couple in this thread who ordered the same DW product as me and had the same experience. 

If the issue is the product, I will eventually stumble across some magic product. If the issue is me, I will eventually see someone rolling balls while I have a meh experience.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> I have wondered about all of this as well. I have tried escalating the dosage from 100 mg to 120 mg, and then to 135 mg. More recently, with the product that was 80% purity I did 150 mg (in weight) to try to make certain I hit the 120 mg (in actual product). Wondering if I should try raising it more. However, a re-dose used to work to make a low-dose pill reach the peak. It never seemed to matter before that the re-dose was taken later, it still caused the peak.
> 
> I would personally be convinced that I have personal issues if a trusted MDMA user gave me something that was "magic" to them and I experienced "meh." Or, I would be convinced it is me if I ever saw someone (anyone) rolling hard off product that I found to be "meh." So far, neither of those things has happened. The "reviews" of the meh product are all pretty consistent, with people making the same comments on the effects. There was even a couple in this thread who ordered the same DW product as me and had the same experience.
> 
> If the issue is the product, I will eventually stumble across some magic product. If the issue is me, I will eventually see someone rolling balls while I have a meh experience.


Just to say, at my old day parties, you could often tell who had the best pills for sale, it was so blatant, everything about them.


----------



## indigoaura

AutoTripper said:


> Just to say, at my old day parties, you could often tell who had the best pills for sale, it was so blatant, everything about them.



Right? At my old parties too. You knew who was rolling on the better stuff.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> I have wondered about all of this as well. I have tried escalating the dosage from 100 mg to 120 mg, and then to 135 mg. More recently, with the product that was 80% purity I did 150 mg (in weight) to try to make certain I hit the 120 mg (in actual product). Wondering if I should try raising it more. However, a re-dose used to work to make a low-dose pill reach the peak. It never seemed to matter before that the re-dose was taken later, it still caused the peak.
> 
> I would personally be convinced that I have personal issues if a trusted MDMA user gave me something that was "magic" to them and I experienced "meh." Or, I would be convinced it is me if I ever saw someone (anyone) rolling hard off product that I found to be "meh." So far, neither of those things has happened. The "reviews" of the meh product are all pretty consistent, with people making the same comments on the effects. There was even a couple in this thread who ordered the same DW product as me and had the same experience.
> 
> If the issue is the product, I will eventually stumble across some magic product. If the issue is me, I will eventually see someone rolling balls while I have a meh experience.


Hi again Indigo and hope you and yours are feeling well.

So just on the redosing thing, in relation to the fairly stern recommendations and emphasis on re dosing within a certain relatively short time period like 90 minutes maximum with a smaller dose, obviously modern day harm reduction plays into this, but I gathered the impression that it was viewed as only being sufficiently effective if redosed within a certain time frame.

Back in my time (lol, I sound so old don't I at 40?) I'm not sure I ever heard of such a concept. Redosing always worked for me, regardless of dose and intervals.

But I would redose all night many times.

But for example, early on, aged 16 at Dreamscape 25 UK indoor rave, a truly amazing event at the time, I took 3 OG Legit Dolphin pills with me.

I spread them out. One, sublime and scinitillating comeup. It had Everything you expect from true MDMA and more!

Maybe 2 or 2.5 hours later I took my second Dolphin. Not because I had to, but it was the way I went that night.

And so unusual and bizarrely at the time, having worked a full on week, I was suddenly so struck by hunger and need to eat, plus as strong an apletitie as ever in my life- whike taking a time out of the venues briefly with a friend, in the large outside area sporting fairground rides, dodgem cars, food stalls...

Coming up hard on the 2nd Dolphin pill, I bought a hot dog to go with ,y cup of hot tea.

I wolfed that hotdog down like never before, and it was metabolised so quickly I barely felt it in my digestive system at all.

It tasted amazing too! Zero tummy upset and it gave me energy for the rest of tge night.

But the point- my second Dolphin, was no less effective than number one. Like double the effect or more in fact.

I left a slightly longer gap until my final, 3rd Dolphin, which again just took me right up, not "back up" because I had not come down or even levelled, but to an even higher, more angelical loved up plane.

I never in those 9 years thought- shucks, been too long now. No point in taking more.

I would many times spread 3, 4, 5 very good pills over a night long session, getting higher each time. 

Maybe OG legit MDMA behaves very differently in this regard. I mean I read about the emphasised reports of short duration drop off after 2 hours with MEH, and maybe that is what I difficult to recapture, let alone build upon.

And like others jave wisely said, a true MDMA experience lasts a good 4-6 steady hours, and the afterglow effect and higher consciousness remains well into the following day, at any dose.

But I appreciate also this redose timing also pertains to the more developed harm reduction advice and culture these days.

I read somehwhere, back then, how it was officially better for the brain and serotonergic system, to take 200mg on the head, vs 100 mg twice, one or two hours apart.


----------



## androoo

AutoTripper said:


> But for example, early on, aged 16 at Dreamscape 25 UK indoor rave, a truly amazing event at the time, I took 3 OG Legit Dolphin pills with me.



 1997 was a good year for raves sir ;-) my first big rave was a month after DS 25 at Helter Skelter Energy 97


----------



## AutoTripper

androoo said:


> 1997 was a good year for raves sir ;-) my first big rave was a month after DS 25 at Helter Skelter Energy 97


Yes, I do believe that the very first legendary Mitsubishis first emerged winter 1997.

The very first ever batch, you really only needed one pill all night. You just transcended to a beautiful plane and stayed there all night, independantly of and perceftly peacefully in tune with everything around you- nature, people, sound.

That is what true MDMA is like.

It did not drop off, and zero comedown but a return to the full self with an overwhelming sense of happiness.

3 weeks later, we scored Mitsubishis from the same Guy at the same UK "Gangster Dolphin" rave, they were only a patch on the originals. 

But it marked a huge upturn in the quality of ecstasy pills. In 1999, and 2000 I came across the absolute best of all time, left right and centre.

Also very good in 2001, 2, 3, 4 and early 5.


----------



## AutoTripper

androoo said:


> 1997 was a good year for raves sir ;-) my first big rave was a month after DS 25 at Helter Skelter Energy 97


Dreamscape 25! I went there. It was a great production.  Is now a large IKEA building did you know?


----------



## androoo

AutoTripper said:


> Dreamscape 25! I went there. It was a great production.  Is now a large IKEA building did you know?


yup :-( V7 Saxon Way will never be the same again :-(


----------



## indigoaura

> But it marked a huge upturn in the quality of ecstasy pills. In 1999, and 2000 I came across the absolute best of all time, left right and centre.
> 
> Also very good in 2001, 2, 3, 4 and early 5.



And that is when I entered the scene. Early 2000. Good times.


----------



## majk13

I think we should come to terms with the fact that that old mdma won't come back and I'm sorry for that, but you can't live in the past. let's just be glad that we had the opportunity to live in times when mdma was magical ...


----------



## indigoaura

majk13 said:


> I think we should come to terms with the fact that that old mdma won't come back and I'm sorry for that, but you can't live in the past. let's just be glad that we had the opportunity to live in times when mdma was magical ...



Sorry man, but this is just not how my brain works.


----------



## EntheoDjinn

@indigoaura:  Hold on tight to your optimism.  There is the "old mdma", as majk13 refers to it, out there. I have some which was produced recently (don't know where, but available in the UK). Ticks all the boxes of magic MDMA and as far as I'm concerned, is as good as stuff from 20 years ago.  The past and present are coincident in this case.


----------



## AutoTripper

androoo said:


> yup :-( V7 Saxon Way will never be the same again :-(


Indeed. I went to that Helter Skelter rave too. I only ever went to that one Dreamscape event, but it was the best setup, production, sound and experience I had of those different raves.

United Dance in Stevenage sucked hard! 

Glad you shared some of that with me.


----------



## indigoaura

EntheoDjinn said:


> @indigoaura:  Hold on tight to your optimism.  There is the "old mdma", as majk13 refers to it, out there. I have some which was produced recently (don't know where, but available in the UK). Ticks all the boxes of magic MDMA and as far as I'm concerned, is as good as stuff from 20 years ago.  The past and present are coincident in this case.



Thanks!

As I said in an earlier post, eventually I am going to get some data to confirm one way or another what is going on with me. I will either come across some quality/magic MDMA, or I will see someone rolling right on what is meh to me, and I will see that it is an issue with me personally. 

Obviously, hoping that I eventually stumble across some magic.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

sad day a shit ton of magic mdma and pills got seized and the syndicate busted. Some of the best pills i had where their presses they did here. Still other folk out there with major stockpiles of good stuff but whatever they also added to that mdma was amazing.


----------



## Jmoda

TripSitterNZ said:


> sad day a shit ton of magic mdma and pills got seized and the syndicate busted. Some of the best pills i had where their presses they did here. Still other folk out there with major stockpiles of good stuff but whatever they also added to that mdma was amazing.



In NZ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Jmoda said:


> In NZ?


yeah, Pretty big bust. $10m in assets


----------



## user666

TripSitterNZ said:


> ...whatever they also added to that MDMA was amazing.


What do you think they were adding ?


----------



## TripSitterNZ

user666 said:


> What do you think they were adding ?


something that kept me going for a good 8-10 hours on top of alot of mdma. Had extreme rushes and walls were moving. I wish i knew i remeber some of the OG presses in 2018 had unidentifiable compounds in them from simple IR testing.


----------



## Jmoda

TripSitterNZ said:


> something that kept me going for a good 8-10 hours on top of alot of mdma. Had extreme rushes and walls were moving. I wish i knew i remeber some of the OG presses in 2018 had unidentifiable compounds in them from simple IR testing.



Sounds like MDMA + 6APB


----------



## sdxyln

To make UK government approved clinical trails MDMA (>98.50% purity), at Bristol a lab used a _kilo_ of precursor and obtained out of that 190 kilograms MDMA. It cost £9000.


----------



## user666

sdxyln said:


> To make UK government approved clinical trails MDMA (>98.50% purity), at Bristol a lab used a _kilo_ of precursor and obtained out of that 190 kilograms MDMA. It cost £9000.


Please learn about stoichiometry before writing urban legends like that.


----------



## sdxyln

This is fresh news, not that.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

Jmoda said:


> Sounds like MDMA + 6APB


looking at 6apb it seems like that is it was heavily couch locked and totally floored while these rushes were intense and intense love and oneness and some visuals aswell. Went super well with weed.


----------



## AutoTripper

TripSitterNZ said:


> looking at 6apb it seems like that is it was heavily couch locked and totally floored while these rushes were intense and intense love and oneness and some visuals aswell. Went super well with weed.


I read that 6-APB has strong resemblances to MDA, in a stimulative, psychedellic and long lasting sense, just not as empathogenic as MDMA as well.


----------



## indigoaura

Just a little note here.

Did some 2CB for the first time last night in about a year. I did a super low dose, maybe 12-15 mg. I usually do about 30 mg. Also, I had just eaten a big meal. I did not expect much.

Ended up being totally reminded of what magic MDMA is supposed to feel like. I am totally capable of feeling magic, apparently, just not from this shit MDMA.

Had an array of experiences in association with music, just relaxing on the sofa.  There was some intense synesthesia. If you don't feel like the music is undressing you, you are doing something wrong!

I think, to some extent, the emphasis on the "couch locked" nature of the Meh-DMA may be misleading. I was stretched out on the couch for the entire 2CB experience as well, but the psychological/physical qualities were 100% different. My mind was active and filled with deep appreciation, relaxation, joy, and sensuality. 

MehDMA = I want to lay on the couch because there is nothing else I want to do, and I feel heavy and unmotivated, and I wish everything/everyone/every sound would just go away.

2CB (and maybe magic MDMA too) = I want to lay on the couch because it FEELS GOOD, and the blanket feels good, and stretching feels good, and oh, this music is making me tingle in a way that feels good, and there is nowhere else I would rather be. 

It is the difference between a depressed de-motivation and a relaxed euphoria.


----------



## FuckinAcidMan

indigoaura said:


> Just a little note here.
> 
> Did some 2CB for the first time last night in about a year. I did a super low dose, maybe 12-15 mg. I usually do about 30 mg. Also, I had just eaten a big meal. I did not expect much.
> 
> Ended up being totally reminded of what magic MDMA is supposed to feel like. I am totally capable of feeling magic, apparently, just not from this shit MDMA.
> 
> Had an array of experiences in association with music, just relaxing on the sofa.  There was some intense synesthesia. If you don't feel like the music is undressing you, you are doing something wrong!
> 
> I think, to some extent, the emphasis on the "couch locked" nature of the Meh-DMA may be misleading. I was stretched out on the couch for the entire 2CB experience as well, but the psychological/physical qualities were 100% different. My mind was active and filled with deep appreciation, relaxation, joy, and sensuality.
> 
> MehDMA = I want to lay on the couch because there is nothing else I want to do, and I feel heavy and unmotivated, and I wish everything/everyone/every sound would just go away.
> 
> 2CB (and maybe magic MDMA too) = I want to lay on the couch because it FEELS GOOD, and the blanket feels good, and stretching feels good, and oh, this music is making me tingle in a way that feels good, and there is nowhere else I would rather be.
> 
> It is the difference between a depressed de-motivation and a relaxed euphoria.


Dude I've been following this thread a bit and I'm just happy you got to have a nice entactogen experience after dealing with all those crappy batches of MDxx lol!

I love the 2C-X subbed phen series.


----------



## indigoaura

FuckinAcidMan said:


> Dude I've been following this thread a bit and I'm just happy you got to have a nice entactogen experience after dealing with all those crappy batches of MDxx lol!
> 
> I love the 2C-X subbed phen series.



Thanks! It was a nice change of pace! It had been a long time since I felt some of those feelings!


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> Just a little note here.
> 
> Did some 2CB for the first time last night in about a year. I did a super low dose, maybe 12-15 mg. I usually do about 30 mg. Also, I had just eaten a big meal. I did not expect much.
> 
> Ended up being totally reminded of what magic MDMA is supposed to feel like. I am totally capable of feeling magic, apparently, just not from this shit MDMA.
> 
> Had an array of experiences in association with music, just relaxing on the sofa.  There was some intense synesthesia. If you don't feel like the music is undressing you, you are doing something wrong!
> 
> I think, to some extent, the emphasis on the "couch locked" nature of the Meh-DMA may be misleading. I was stretched out on the couch for the entire 2CB experience as well, but the psychological/physical qualities were 100% different. My mind was active and filled with deep appreciation, relaxation, joy, and sensuality.
> 
> MehDMA = I want to lay on the couch because there is nothing else I want to do, and I feel heavy and unmotivated, and I wish everything/everyone/every sound would just go away.
> 
> 2CB (and maybe magic MDMA too) = I want to lay on the couch because it FEELS GOOD, and the blanket feels good, and stretching feels good, and oh, this music is making me tingle in a way that feels good, and there is nowhere else I would rather be.
> 
> It is the difference between a depressed de-motivation and a relaxed euphoria.



This is pretty much how I see 6-apb V MehDMA. 

6-apb has me couchlocked in a state of utter bliss, rather than just not being able to do anything else...


----------



## indigoaura

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> This is pretty much how I see 6-apb V MehDMA.
> 
> 6-apb has me couchlocked in a state of utter bliss, rather than just not being able to do anything else...



I need to give these APB substances a try.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> I need to give these APB substances a try.



6--apb is to me what I always imagined 2-cb to be like. Unfortunately I haven't had much success with 2-cb thus far...


----------



## indigoaura

Ok everyone, I think we should go ahead and plan our party in Oregon! :D


----------



## androoo

so are there any new updates on what the issue is ?


----------



## indigoaura

androoo said:


> so are there any new updates on what the issue is ?



Unfortunately, not really. 

Our top hypothesis is still that the effects of MDMA are likely being blocked by a contaminant/impurity. There is some research that supports this, including articles that show that synthesis impurities block receptors, and other articles that detail how such receptor blocking activity might stunt an MDMA experience. 

Backup theories include the idea that synthesis impurities from older synthesis methods somehow enhanced the experience, or that some of today's MDMA is a structurally similar compound that masquerades as MDMA to GCMS. 

An additional rising star in consideration is that the phenomenon is a combination of individual genetics and/or physical issues and the presence of contaminants. In other words, SOME people experience a blunted MDMA experience in response to contaminants while other people do not.


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Just a little note here.
> 
> Did some 2CB for the first time last night in about a year. I did a super low dose, maybe 12-15 mg. I usually do about 30 mg. Also, I had just eaten a big meal. I did not expect much.
> 
> Ended up being totally reminded of what magic MDMA is supposed to feel like. I am totally capable of feeling magic, apparently, just not from this shit MDMA.
> 
> Had an array of experiences in association with music, just relaxing on the sofa.  There was some intense synesthesia. If you don't feel like the music is undressing you, you are doing something wrong!
> 
> I think, to some extent, the emphasis on the "couch locked" nature of the Meh-DMA may be misleading. I was stretched out on the couch for the entire 2CB experience as well, but the psychological/physical qualities were 100% different. My mind was active and filled with deep appreciation, relaxation, joy, and sensuality.
> 
> MehDMA = I want to lay on the couch because there is nothing else I want to do, and I feel heavy and unmotivated, and I wish everything/everyone/every sound would just go away.
> 
> 2CB (and maybe magic MDMA too) = I want to lay on the couch because it FEELS GOOD, and the blanket feels good, and stretching feels good, and oh, this music is making me tingle in a way that feels good, and there is nowhere else I would rather be.
> 
> It is the difference between a depressed de-motivation and a relaxed euphoria.


Nice to hear you had at least a pleasurable and sounds like a predominantly positicec experience Indigo.

I first took 2CB myself in 1999 at an illegal outdoor summer festival called Exodus.

It was quite bizarre there were three hippies sitting on couches just randomly at the edge of a pathway and they offered me 2cb which I had never heard of then and I asked them what it was like and they said very simplistic "it's like a cross between a trip and a pill".

3 tiny micodort things. It magnified eberything else I was on.

But I have always understood 2cb be an enhancer essentially so maybe it is capable of bringing out the more positive aspect of less than top-quality legit MDMA.

Just a thought anyway.

(Jusy edited for embarassing typos. Damned old optic nerve injury combined with heavy hppd lol! Sometimed it's like typing on a rocky ferry ride.)


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

MehDMA stops 2C-B from working. I once snorted at least 30 mg 2C-B when I had taken MehDMA & 150 mcg AL-LAD in order to get something to happen. In the end I had visuals like I'd normally get from snorting 10 mg, but without the normal headspace & tactile enhancement. Complete waste of good 2C-B & AL-LAD. ☹


----------



## AutoTripper

PsychedelicSummer said:


> MehDMA stops 2C-B from working. I once snorted at least 30 mg 2C-B when I had taken MehDMA & 150 mcg AL-LAD in order to get something to happen. In the end I had visual like I'd normally get from snorting 10 mg, but without the normal headspace & tactile enhancement. Complete waste of good 2C-B & AL-LAD.


See that alone itself just shouldn't be the case.

By all accounts and logic, 2CB will substantially enhance MDMA, and create a much more psychedellic headspace, without blocking the effect of the 2CB in any way, more likely amplifying it, by my understanding of true MDMA.

This alone, is actually a very strong subjective indicator, that there really MIGHT ACTUALLY BE Mehdma lol, for those still in doubt insisting Loss of Magic is the only explanation.


----------



## indigoaura

PsychedelicSummer said:


> MehDMA stops 2C-B from working. I once snorted at least 30 mg 2C-B when I had taken MehDMA & 150 mcg AL-LAD in order to get something to happen. In the end I had visuals like I'd normally get from snorting 10 mg, but without the normal headspace & tactile enhancement. Complete waste of good 2C-B & AL-LAD. ☹



I have also had experiences where I took the MehDMA first and then took 2CB and it was BAD. Not pleasant at all. However, one time, I switched the order and took the 2CB first, and that seemed to improve the MehDMA. So, I am kind of curious to try that again and see if I could replicate that experience. But year, taking the MehDMA first and then taking 2CB does not create the pleasant, synergistic experience that is supposed to occur.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Been testing out a new batch of MDMA this weekend and it's very good indeed.

Started off on 130mg and although I'd eaten (dropping was a last minute decision) I could feel it coming on after 15 minutes which is a good sign to me.

Felt lovely and clean, but not quite strong enough for my liking. So I redosed another 100mg. Now with MehDMA, redoses are a waste of time and drugs because all you're doing is chasing that high you were so cruelly denied. But this redose took me right back up, and that was after 3-4 hours.

So that was Friday. It's now 21:32 on Sunday 8th November and I am happily buzzing my tits off on a starting dose of 250mg. No desire to redose at this level.

So, the verdict is it seems like decent stuff, but the dose just needs to be increased to start with

(Edit: still mashed and just realised I've missed some bits out. Please see amended post above)


----------



## indigoaura

Sending all the good vibes @F.U.B.A.R. !


----------



## mooka

indigoaura said:


> Unfortunately, not really.
> 
> Our top hypothesis is still that the effects of MDMA are likely being blocked by a contaminant/impurity. There is some research that supports this, including articles that show that synthesis impurities block receptors, and other articles that detail how such receptor blocking activity might stunt an MDMA experience.
> 
> Backup theories include the idea that synthesis impurities from older synthesis methods somehow enhanced the experience, or that some of today's MDMA is a structurally similar compound that masquerades as MDMA to GCMS.
> 
> An additional rising star in consideration is that the phenomenon is a combination of individual genetics and/or physical issues and the presence of contaminants. In other words, SOME people experience a blunted MDMA experience in response to contaminants while other people do not.


Been a while... just for the sake of knowledge you may find this interesting.

A multiple re-crystallization attempt (3x) from a fairly pure sample from a known DM shop showed the following:
Even if the substance is white or off white (in powdered form) still has plenty of impurities, the desiccated mother liquor contained a considerable amount of a yellow/orange greasy/oily substance that took months to dry to solid, and not even dried completely.
The resulting crystals are nearly transparent and look very clean, no smell at all, unfortunately the re-crystallization did not improve in any way the experience, it was active nearly the same before and after. No substantial improvement. 
Nice warm body feeling, energetic but lethargic at the same time, no euphoria, no desire to dance, music boring. Walking in the woods at night felt quite satisfying and spiritual though.

I'm quite sure that impurities are not responsible for the overall dull effect we all know, a dimer would have a different molecular weight so that rules this out since GCMS shows the supposedly correct value.
Could be that the pressurized reductive amination may be responsible for a different arrangement of the atoms in the molecule? just speculating here, but I'm running out of possible answers.
Still I think that impurities related to the old route used at the time 90-2000's would produce a synergy with the main molecule, i remember that occasionally tablets had a different effect, cleaner and less stimulating , I tend to believe that these were MDMA in  a purer form or quite likely that the synth used didn't produced extra compounds which effect would add/colour the experience in a different way.
I'll post a pic of the cleaned product asap, once I found a secure place to upload it.
Keep investigating


----------



## psy997

mooka said:


> I'll post a pic of the cleaned product asap, once I found a secure place to upload it.



If you wouldn't mind making a page on our MehDMA Wiki with your findings, you can securely upload your images there. There's an easy way to make a new page on the front page here: https://mdma.noosworx.com/index.php?title=Main_Page


----------



## mooka

psy997 said:


> If you wouldn't mind making a page on our MehDMA Wiki with your findings, you can securely upload your images there. There's an easy way to make a new page on the front page here: https://mdma.noosworx.com/index.php?title=Main_Page


I tried but it didn't work with my browser.
anyway here the re-crystallized meh.


----------



## Jmoda

mooka said:


> I tried but it didn't work with my browser.
> anyway here the re-crystallized meh.




The sheer beauty of this is almost defeating when realizing the implications ha.


----------



## G_Chem

mooka said:


> I tried but it didn't work with my browser.
> anyway here the re-crystallized meh.



Any way we could get multiple pictures, out of the container? Looks pretty but I wanna see if I can differentiate any clear crystal pattern that true MDMA has.

Right now it looks more like melted ice than re-X’ed MDMA, and gives me the impression either a cut or impurity still made it along for the ride.

It’s very possible for substances with similar solubility properties to re-X together.

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

This is a long thread, and it has been a long time, but I have been under the impression that re-crystallization would not take out the kind of impurities we think may be responsible, due to similarity to MDMA. I thought this has come up several times with the conclusion that a column is the only way to possibly separate the compounds.


----------



## mooka

G_Chem said:


> Any way we could get multiple pictures, out of the container? Looks pretty but I wanna see if I can differentiate any clear crystal pattern that true MDMA has.
> 
> Right now it looks more like melted ice than re-X’ed MDMA, and gives me the impression either a cut or impurity still made it along for the ride.
> 
> It’s very possible for substances with similar solubility properties to re-X together.
> 
> -GC


will post some more pics over the weekend.
re-X solvent was anhydrous IPA the first two times and IPA + distilled water the 3rd, just extra info for who might be curious.



indigoaura said:


> This is a long thread, and it has been a long time, but I have been under the impression that re-crystallization would not take out the kind of impurities we think may be responsible, due to similarity to MDMA. I thought this has come up several times with the conclusion that a column is the only way to possibly separate the compounds.


If this is true would mean that a big part of the product would be a cut. However this meh is fully active at dosages of 100-120mg (if you consider fully active meh ) and as we know increasing the dosage doesn't change the experience footprint, so if a cut is responsible that would bring down the dosage to be sub-active levels, and this is not the case.

Furthermore no one has successfully isolated meh (or active cut) from magic yet, so this sadly takes me to the conclusion that the so called mdma that is largely available is an isomer, there isn't much more to look for. *Maybe an isomer with a different resonance* *form *that is differently metabolized by the brain? I stumbled upon this paper which looks quite recent: Mass-Spectrometry-Based Identification of Synthetic Drug Isomers Using Infrared Ion Spectroscopy, at this point looks like that the only way to answer this riddle is using this technique.


----------



## user666

mooka said:


> If this is true would mean that a big part of the product would be a cut.
> However this meh is fully active at dosages of 100-120mg (if you consider fully active meh ) and as we know increasing the dosage doesn't change the experience footprint, so if a cut is responsible that would bring down the dosage to be sub-active levels, and this is not the case.


Not necessarily.
The cut or contaminant can be very very potent. This way, a low proportion e.g. 1:100000 of a high potency contaminant would make it very hard to detect while still allowing it to exert its effect on the nervous system.

This is not far fetched, there are substances which are pharmacologically active at the nanogram range - for example some of the new synthetic opioids among many other potent drugs.

I'd bet a pure racemic 3,4-MDMA HCl mixed with one of these very potent sedating contaminants in the proportion 1:100000 would be pretty Meh and almost impossible to detect and separate.


----------



## mooka

user666 said:


> Not necessarily.
> The cut or contaminant can be very very potent. This way, a low proportion e.g. 1:100000 of a high potency contaminant would make it very hard to detect while still allowing it to exert its effect on the nervous system.
> 
> This is not far fetched, there are substances which are pharmacologically active at the nanogram range - for example some of the new synthetic opioids among many other potent drugs.
> 
> I'd bet a pure racemic 3,4-MDMA HCl mixed with one of these very potent sedating contaminants in the proportion 1:100000 would be pretty Meh and almost impossible to detect and separate.


Wrong.
The whole point of re-X is to purify the main substance from impurities, so a contaminant that would be active in the nanograms range would never find its way to the crystallized product but it would stay in the mother liquor. In this case the re-X was done 3 times.
If instead the contaminant/cut is present in quantities enough to recrystallize along with the main product it would:* (A) be detected by GC* and *(B) increase the threshold dosage. Both possibilities are false in this case. *

So this leave us with only one possible outcome: the *MEH product is an active isomer*.
My bet is that MEH is 2,3-MDMA or one of this table:


----------



## psy997

Interesting @mooka 

Thoughts, those that are knowledgeable of chemistry?


----------



## sekio

GC is perfectly able of separating positional isomers of MDMA. So is crystallization - different isomers don't all just lump together into a crystal.
And, you can quite easily do setups like 2D-GC to further enhance the seperatory power.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is some compound that is active in the low microgram doses that has eluded detection and characterization so far. There are also only so many possible reactions that can occur when synthesizing MDMA, many of which are well characterized. So the impurity would be limited in its possible structures - how you'd get from safrole to a fentanyl analogue I don't know. Not to mention, a good chemist will purify the intermediate products during synthesis anyway...



> a contaminant that would be active in the nanograms range would never find its way to the crystallized product


You'd hope so, but crystallization is not a perfect operation. Sure you might be able to purify 75% to the high 90s, but getting 99.999% would need multiple recrystallizations.

I'm still unconvinced that the MDMA is the issue here. I would bet some good money on a double blind test showing there's no difference. You guys are treading and retreading the same ground, over and over.

To actually contribute something to this "discussion" though: has anyone tried dissolving the "MehDMA" in water before administering it? One (admittedly unlikely) possible explanation is there is another crystal polymorph of MDMA that simply doesn't dissolve in gastric fluids as rapidly, and pre-dissolving it removes this variable (no crystal structure in solution). For the longest time I've always plugged MDMA, maybe this is why I never find it meh?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

sekio said:


> To actually contribute something to this "discussion" though: has anyone tried dissolving the "MehDMA" in water before administering it? One (admittedly unlikely) possible explanation is there is another crystal polymorph of MDMA that simply doesn't dissolve in gastric fluids as rapidly, and pre-dissolving it removes this variable (no crystal structure in solution). For the longest time I've always plugged MDMA, maybe this is why I never find it meh?




Yes, I always dissolve it in water first these days and can confirm it doesn't make meh any less meh...


----------



## G_Chem

sekio said:


> GC is perfectly able of separating positional isomers of MDMA. So is crystallization - different isomers don't all just lump together into a crystal.
> And, you can quite easily do setups like 2D-GC to further enhance the seperatory power.
> 
> I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is some compound that is active in the low microgram doses that has eluded detection and characterization so far. There are also only so many possible reactions that can occur when synthesizing MDMA, many of which are well characterized. So the impurity would be limited in its possible structures - how you'd get from safrole to a fentanyl analogue I don't know. Not to mention, a good chemist will purify the intermediate products during synthesis anyway...
> 
> 
> You'd hope so, but crystallization is not a perfect operation. Sure you might be able to purify 75% to the high 90s, but getting 99.999% would need multiple recrystallizations.
> 
> I'm still unconvinced that the MDMA is the issue here. I would bet some good money on a double blind test showing there's no difference. You guys are treading and retreading the same ground, over and over.
> 
> To actually contribute something to this "discussion" though: has anyone tried dissolving the "MehDMA" in water before administering it? One (admittedly unlikely) possible explanation is there is another crystal polymorph of MDMA that simply doesn't dissolve in gastric fluids as rapidly, and pre-dissolving it removes this variable (no crystal structure in solution). For the longest time I've always plugged MDMA, maybe this is why I never find it meh?



When I first joined this discussion years back I initially presented the idea of polymorphism, and it’s still a possibility but I got the impression that while there is polymorphs and they do possibly vary in pharmacology that the changes in effect might not be exactly what’s seen with this particular phenomenon.

So far there seems to be 2-4 polymorphs, two of which can be defined easily.  Anhydrous MDMA forms orthorhombic crystals whereas a hydrated polymorph forms parallelogram/diamond shaped crystals.

We know based on pharmaceutical research that polymorphs can alter pharmacological function, so entirely possible it’s happening here too.  Just not enough research in this field.

Anyone wanting to read some great information regarding the subject hunt down my earlier posts probably from 2017 or so.

-GC


----------



## mooka

sekio said:


> GC is perfectly able of separating positional isomers of MDMA. So is crystallization - different isomers don't all just lump together into a crystal.
> And, you can quite easily do setups like 2D-GC to further enhance the seperatory power.



Not at all, GC can separate between substances with different molecular weights but can't for instance differentiate between a 2,3-whatever from a 3,4-another. In fact if you read the paper I posted in the previous page https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.analchem.0c00915, the amount of effort to differentiate between 2, 3,  and 4MMC, and 2,3-mda/mdma with their relative 3,4-compund is admirable, they even had to customise and modify their instrumentation to be able to achieve that. It is not simple when you have to compare the same compound rearranged in a different way, the game here is at very high levels.
That's why this thread after 4 years is still here.

This paragraph is particularly interesting:

*MDMA-Type Isomer Differentiation with Infrared IonSpectroscopy.
Another, different, class of isomeric com-pounds that have a bicyclic ring structure connected at
different positions, the MDMA- and MDA-type drugs, were also investigated. The 3,4-isomers of both MDMA (known as“ecstasy”) and MDA are frequently occurring stimulants that
are controlled substances in The Netherlands. However, their 2,3-isomers are both NPS that are not controlled and are
nearly indistinguishable from their corresponding 3,4-isomers on the basis of GC-MS, being the method of choice in most
forensic laboratories.11 Using IRIS, however, clearly distinctive IR spectra for each isomer could be generated which enables
simple identification of these NPS from their controlledcounterparts, as presented inFigure 3(see Figure S3for a comparison to computationally predicted IR spectra) (Note. NPS=Non Prohibited Substances). *

This is why I strongly tend to believe that the precursor used is 2,3-MDP2P glycidate, it is legal, it goes thru customs and in the event of LEO operations there still a hard time for the law to prove that it is a illegal precursor/substance, furthermore it is practically indistinguishable from its more active relative MDMA on a street an up levels.



> I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is some compound that is active in the low microgram doses that has eluded detection and characterization so far. There are also only so many possible reactions that can occur when synthesizing MDMA, many of which are well characterized. So the impurity would be limited in its possible structures - how you'd get from safrole to a fentanyl analogue I don't know. Not to mention, a good chemist will purify the intermediate products during synthesis anyway...


Exactly! why you want to add such a substance with extreme dosage dangers, cost, and for what? to make your own product half as potent so you can sell more??? nah I don't buy it at all sounds like a street myth.



> You'd hope so, but crystallization is not a perfect operation. Sure you might be able to purify 75% to the high 90s, but getting 99.999% would need multiple recrystallizations.


Still for the quantities involved in the hypothetical contaminant if the active is in nanograms it won't crystallize along with the main product, we're talking about that .001% of cut, it is fervid imagination IMO. It will stay in that part of the product discarded when going to 75 to high 90's as you said.
Also re-crystallization is a standard procedure in refining pharmaceuticals.



> I'm still unconvinced that the MDMA is the issue here. I would bet some good money on a double blind test showing there's no difference. You guys are treading and retreading the same ground, over and over.


Again.. wrong... I'm in my 50's, I used MDMA from 1995 to around 2002, several times a year, commercial tabs in the 90's and pure mdma later, produced locally by a small lab.
I can explain with a pic the differences from Magic and Meh







> To actually contribute something to this "discussion" though: has anyone tried dissolving the "MehDMA" in water before administering it? One (admittedly unlikely) possible explanation is there is another crystal polymorph of MDMA that simply doesn't dissolve in gastric fluids as rapidly, and pre-dissolving it removes this variable (no crystal structure in solution). For the longest time I've always plugged MDMA, maybe this is why I never find it meh?


Polymorphism affects substances solubility only in very particular cases, and not MDMA which is always soluble in water.

Unfortunately if my hypothesis is correct we'll never see again mass produced Magic MDMA.

(edit: typo's)


----------



## indigoaura

@mooka Your visual representation is the bomb! Love it!

MAPS discovered new polymorphs and discussed it in their Spring bulletin:








						The Commercial Chemistry of MDMA: From Research to Patient Access - Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies - MAPS
					

Written by Heather Clouting, M.Sc. MAPS Bulletin Spring 2020: Vol. 30, No. 1 Download this article. Nearly 20 years ago, during our final year of university while studying for our Bachelor’s in chemistry, I thought that two fellow students and I were rebels for suggesting that our organic...




					maps.org
				




Drugs Data added 2-3 MDMA to their catalogue of tested substances, but they did not identify it in their previously submitted samples. They were in the process of trying to obtain more reference samples of isobaric derivatives, but could not find a lot of them. 

There is a difference between whether GCMS is capable of differentiating and whether the machines are set up with the appropriate settings/sensitivity levels to properly differentiate. I know I have mentioned this before, but Energy Data openly admitted that they do not typically run their analysis to identify synthesis byproducts, and if I wanted that level of analysis they would have to change the settings on the machine.


----------



## G_Chem

mooka said:


> Not at all, GC can separate between substances with different molecular weights but can't for instance differentiate between a 2,3-whatever from a 3,4-another. In fact if you read the paper I posted in the previous page https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acs.analchem.0c00915, the amount of effort to differentiate between 2, 3,  and 4MMC, and 2,3-mda/mdma with their relative 3,4-compund is admirable, they even had to customise and modify their instrumentation to be able to achieve that. It is not simple when you have to compare the same compound rearranged in a different way, the game here is at very high levels.
> That's why this thread after 4 years is still here.
> 
> This paragraph is particularly interesting:
> 
> *MDMA-Type Isomer Differentiation with Infrared IonSpectroscopy.
> Another, different, class of isomeric com-pounds that have a bicyclic ring structure connected at
> different positions, the MDMA- and MDA-type drugs, were also investigated. The 3,4-isomers of both MDMA (known as“ecstasy”) and MDA are frequently occurring stimulants that
> are controlled substances in The Netherlands. However, their 2,3-isomers are both NPS that are not controlled and are
> nearly indistinguishable from their corresponding 3,4-isomers on the basis of GC-MS, being the method of choice in most
> forensic laboratories.11 Using IRIS, however, clearly distinctive IR spectra for each isomer could be generated which enables
> simple identification of these NPS from their controlledcounterparts, as presented inFigure 3(see Figure S3for a comparison to computationally predicted IR spectra) (Note. NPS=Non Prohibited Substances). *
> 
> This is why I strongly tend to believe that the precursor used is 2,3-MDP2P glycidate, it is legal, it goes thru customs and in the event of LEO operations there still a hard time for the law to prove that it is a illegal precursor/substance, furthermore it is practically indistinguishable from its more active relative MDMA on a street an up levels.
> 
> 
> Exactly! why you want to add such a substance with extreme dosage dangers, cost, and for what? to make your own product half as potent so you can sell more??? nah I don't buy it at all sounds like a street myth.
> 
> 
> Still for the quantities involved in the hypothetical contaminant if the active is in nanograms it won't crystallize along with the main product, we're talking about that .001% of cut, it is fervid imagination IMO. It will stay in that part of the product discarded when going to 75 to high 90's as you said.
> Also re-crystallization is a standard procedure in refining pharmaceuticals.
> 
> 
> Again.. wrong... I'm in my 50's, I used MDMA from 1995 to around 2002, several times a year, commercial tabs in the 90's and pure mdma later, produced locally by a small lab.
> I can explain with a pic the differences from Magic and Meh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polymorphism affects substances solubility only in very particular cases, and not MDMA which is always soluble in water.
> 
> Unfortunately if my hypothesis is correct we'll never see again mass produced Magic MDMA.
> 
> (edit: typo's)



Polymorphs can effect more than solubility, as is demonstrated well in this research article (which has been posted in this thread many times before I may add).






						Polymorphism: The Phenomenon Affecting the Performance   of Drugs
					

Polymorphism is the ability of solid materials to exist in two or more crystalline forms with different arrangements or conformations of the constituents in the crystal lattice.




					symbiosisonlinepublishing.com
				




Also I completely agree with sekio, re-X isn’t as selective as you’d think and more of last step purification step.

IMO careful fractional vacuum distillation of the freebase multiple times, followed by multiple recrystallizations is the only way to prove if your theory is correct.

It is possible I suppose given the fact Glubra-something-or-another who used to post here said he analyzed some batches (1-2?) that were 2,3-PMK glycidate.  That said something about his posts still leave me with skepticism... May never truly know if he was bullshitting or there really was weird batches of crap floating around..

-GC


----------



## Negi

When reading the paper @mooka linked I noticed that the lead author worked at the Forensic Laboratory of the Dutch National Police. So I shot them an email asking if they had seen or heard of mixed positional isomers in street MDMA samples.



> Subject: Regarding your research on the detection of positional isomers
> 
> Hello Mr Kranenburg,
> 
> I have recently read your scientific paper "Mass-Spectrometry-Based Identification of Synthetic Drug Isomers Using Infrared Ion Spectroscopy" and found it to be quite interesting, especially in regards to the analysis of street samples. I was further intrigued when I saw that you work at the Forensic Laboratory of the Dutch National Police. Recently within some harm reduction circles there has been some speculation about a change in illicit MDMA, possibly caused by a mixture of different positional isomers of MDMA within a single sample. Are you aware of the detection of different positional isomers of MDMA within seized or purchased street samples, or any research that touches on this area?
> 
> Regards, [Name]



They replied very promptly:



> Subject: RE: Regarding your research on the detection of positional isomers
> 
> Hello [Name],
> 
> Thank you for your e-mail.
> I am aware of the potential risk of forensic laboratories to encounter a novel, yet uncontrolled, positional isomer of MDMA and we've put additional QC checks in place to detect this and prevent a false positive identifications.
> However, from both my own experience and trend reports (e.g. UNODC, EMCDDA reports) and the NPS Early Warning website https://www.unodc.org/LSS/Home/NPS we don't have any signs that MDMA positional isomers actually do appear on the street markets in a vast amount.
> I know that 2,3-MDMA exists; but I've never encountered this in a case sample until now. I've studied this compound as this one might have near-similar MS fragmentation and pose a risk for a false positive. We've found that retention time and GC-MS match still can give a first clue and additional analysis by GC-VUV can clearly distinguish them (see paper enclosed). For other positional isomers with variations near the amine moiety we can expect major fragmentation differences in MS, thus they can clearly be differentiated.
> 
> So, no, I am not aware of MDMA positional isomers in street samples (at least not in The Netherlands). We do encounter designer drugs and mixtures thereof in a single sample, although these are mainly other groups of substances, such as the cathinones or fluorinated (meth)amphetamines.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Ruben



The attached paper was this one: https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.forsciint.2019.109900


----------



## mooka

G_Chem said:


> Polymorphs can effect more than solubility, as is demonstrated well in this research article (which has been posted in this thread many times before I may add).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Polymorphism: The Phenomenon Affecting the Performance   of Drugs
> 
> 
> Polymorphism is the ability of solid materials to exist in two or more crystalline forms with different arrangements or conformations of the constituents in the crystal lattice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> symbiosisonlinepublishing.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also I completely agree with sekio, re-X isn’t as selective as you’d think and more of last step purification step.
> 
> IMO careful fractional vacuum distillation of the freebase multiple times, followed by multiple recrystallizations is the only way to prove if your theory is correct.
> 
> It is possible I suppose given the fact Glubra-something-or-another who used to post here said he analyzed some batches (1-2?) that were 2,3-PMK glycidate.  That said something about his posts still leave me with skepticism... May never truly know if he was bullshitting or there really was weird batches of crap floating around..
> 
> -GC


I think we can rule out polymorphism since makes no difference ingesting solid or dissolved meh.
Also: polymorphism influences mostly physical behavior of the substances, ranging from stability, faster dissolution, compressibility etc. and only in few cases faster absorption in GIT or higher therapeutic efficiency. It was never an issue with MDMA, not a mention anywhere as far I know.



Negi said:


> When reading the paper @mooka linked I noticed that the lead author worked at the Forensic Laboratory of the Dutch National Police. So I shot them an email asking if they had seen or heard of mixed positional isomers in street MDMA samples.
> 
> 
> 
> They replied very promptly:
> 
> 
> 
> The attached paper was this one: https://sci-hub.st/10.1016/j.forsciint.2019.109900


So back to square one?


----------



## SelectiveSpeeding

I would like to point out that for those of us in the USA, Drug Detection Laboratories thru Erowid's DrugsData program is the only confirmatory source the general public has access to, as I'm sure most of you know. They have stated in the past that their process cannot distinguish between 2, 3, or 4-fluoroamphetamines or any similarly ring substituted chemicals commonly sold as RCs.  It's called GC/MS on the web page, but I would have to guess that it's more specifically GC-EI-MS since that's what the specs of the Agilent 5973 state, which is the machine they have. Thtat would mean that any 2,3-MDMA would look the same as 3,4-MDMA unless a secondary type of analysis was used or a specialized process like the one Negi noted was in place but I have not seen any indication of that from DDL. 

With that in mind, I have seen in the last 4-5 years a ton of this exact material that's described in this thread. It appears to elicit an effect of the correct duration, mildly stimulating though crippled in it's ability to release 5-HT or provide the missing 'magic'. Tests properly with all reagents, and leaves you wondering what else could be wrong after going in the same circles this thread has. Then I considered the info in the first paragraph while I stumbled across this after having seen it years ago: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095113/

Pharmacologically, this explains a crippled MDMA that looks good analytically in all ways normally used to confirm this substance. I think more attention should be given to the 2,3-MDMA theory. Seems plausible that some shady chinese vendor would ship 2,3-MDP2P glycidate and not 3,4-MDP2P glycidate. They're notorious for mislabeling things. Hell, they do it on purpose to skate by customs all the time.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

ffs no one is making 2-3 mdma. you cant even get 2,3 from the starting chemicals.


----------



## mooka

TripSitterNZ said:


> ffs no one is making 2-3 mdma. you cant even get 2,3 from the starting chemicals.


why not? if you have 2,3-MDP2P you'll obtain 2,3-mdma, quite likely with any of the know routes, after all you are modifying the part of the molecule with weaker bonds, it unaffects the 3,4-methylenedioxy bridge.

Quoting the initial paragraph of the  above document:



> "Background and purpose: Illegal ‘ecstasy’ tablets frequently contain 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-like compounds of unknown pharmacological activity. *Since monoamine transporters are one of the primary targets of MDMA action in the brain, a number of MDMA analogues have been tested for their ability to inhibit [3 H]noradrenaline uptake into rat PC12 cells expressing the noradrenaline transporter (NET) and [3 H]5-HT uptake into HEK293 cells stably transfected with the 5-HT transporter (SERT)*. Experimental approach: Concentration–response curves for the following compounds at both NET and SERT were determined under saturating substrate conditions: 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyamphetamine (HMA), 4-hydroxy-3-methoxymethamphetamine (HMMA), 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-hydroxyamphetamine (MDOH), 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromophenylethylamine (2CB), 3,4-dimethoxymethamphetamine (DMMA), 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-butanamine (BDB), 3,4-methylenedioxyphenylN-methyl-2-butanamine (MBDB) and 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (2,3-MDMA). *Key results: 2,3-MDMA was significantly less potent than MDMA at SERT, but equipotent with MDMA at NET.* 2CB and BDB were both significantly less potent than MDMA at NET, but equipotent with MDMA at SERT. MBDB, DMMA, MDOH and the MDMA metabolites HMA and HMMA, were all significantly less potent than MDMA at both NET and SERT. Conclusions and implications: This study provides an important insight into the structural requirements of MDMA analogue affinity at both NET and SERT. It is anticipated that these results will facilitate understanding of the likely pharmacological actions of structural analogues of MDMA. "





SelectiveSpeeding said:


> I would like to point out that for those of us in the USA, Drug Detection Laboratories thru Erowid's DrugsData program is the only confirmatory source the general public has access to, as I'm sure most of you know. They have stated in the past that their process cannot distinguish between 2, 3, or 4-fluoroamphetamines or any similarly ring substituted chemicals commonly sold as RCs.  It's called GC/MS on the web page, but I would have to guess that it's more specifically GC-EI-MS since that's what the specs of the Agilent 5973 state, which is the machine they have. Thtat would mean that any 2,3-MDMA would look the same as 3,4-MDMA unless a secondary type of analysis was used or a specialized process like the one Negi noted was in place but I have not seen any indication of that from DDL.
> 
> With that in mind, I have seen in the last 4-5 years a ton of this exact material that's described in this thread. It appears to elicit an effect of the correct duration, mildly stimulating though crippled in it's ability to release 5-HT or provide the missing 'magic'. Tests properly with all reagents, and leaves you wondering what else could be wrong after going in the same circles this thread has. Then I considered the info in the first paragraph while I stumbled across this after having seen it years ago: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2095113/
> 
> Pharmacologically, this explains a crippled MDMA that looks good analytically in all ways normally used to confirm this substance. I think more attention should be given to the 2,3-MDMA theory. Seems plausible that some shady chinese vendor would ship 2,3-MDP2P glycidate and not 3,4-MDP2P glycidate. They're notorious for mislabeling things. Hell, they do it on purpose to skate by customs all the time.


Thank you very much for your contribution.

I'd love to see a tested both MEH and MAGIC on a academic or forensic level like the study posted by SelectiveSpeeding.  I'm sure something would come up... possible no one has access to a small quantity of magic here??


----------



## TripSitterNZ

there is no 2,3-mdp2p around. Any PMK been made in china is coming from safrole anyway for legitimate uses


----------



## Negi

SelectiveSpeeding said:


> I think more attention should be given to the 2,3-MDMA theory. Seems plausible that some shady chinese vendor would ship 2,3-MDP2P glycidate and not 3,4-MDP2P glycidate. They're notorious for mislabeling things. Hell, they do it on purpose to skate by customs all the time.


The 2,3-MDMA theory is very hard to support given the knowledge that the Dutch police lab is aware of it, has protocols in place to detect it, and has still never seen it. They are going to be testing a vast range of samples, from those taken directly from the reaction vessels of seized labs, all the way to down to the finished product that was intercepted as it was being mailed out of the country. If 2,3-MDMA really is the problem, "mehDMA" is the isolated problem of a few American producers bamboozled by their chemical supplier and the solution for everyone would be to hop on a DNM and order directly from the largest Dutch vendor they can find.


----------



## user666

mooka said:


> Wrong.
> The whole point of re-X is to purify the main substance from impurities, so a contaminant that would be active in the nanograms range would never find its way to the crystallized product but it would stay in the mother liquor. In this case the re-X was done 3 times


But recrystallization is not an ideal process.
Neither is trituration ...especially when solubilities are very similar.

Also, there are substances which crystallize together very well despite being composed of different molecules.
For example, just look at the common cut of Methamphetamine which is known as Isopropylbenzylamine. It forms LARGER crystals with Methamphetamine than Methamphetamine alone !

BTW: The equivalent MD compound would be the N-(1,3-Benzodioxol-5-ylmethyl)-2-propanamine.


----------



## user666

mooka said:


> why not? if you have 2,3-MDP2P you'll obtain 2,3-mdma, quite likely with any of the know routes, after all you are modifying the part of the molecule with weaker bonds, it unaffects the 3,4-methylenedioxy bridge.


Indeed someone in this tread had detected the glycidate of  2,3-MDP2P before, but I just searched all the posts here and the 2,3-MDMA has never been seen.


----------



## indigoaura

mooka said:


> why not? if you have 2,3-MDP2P you'll obtain 2,3-mdma, quite likely with any of the know routes, after all you are modifying the part of the molecule with weaker bonds, it unaffects the 3,4-methylenedioxy bridge.
> 
> Quoting the initial paragraph of the  above document:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much for your contribution.
> 
> I'd love to see a tested both MEH and MAGIC on a academic or forensic level like the study posted by SelectiveSpeeding.  I'm sure something would come up... possible no one has access to a small quantity of magic here??



There are contributors here who have access to magic, and I have meh. The problem is that we have nowhere to send the samples. Drugs Data was, at first, indicating they would assist me and provide more detailed information on my samples, but they have been largely non-communicative for a long time now.


----------



## indigoaura

@SelectiveSpeeding One of my meh samples did show trace amounts of MBDB present - https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8547


----------



## SelectiveSpeeding

Negi said:


> The 2,3-MDMA theory is very hard to support given the knowledge that the Dutch police lab is aware of it, has protocols in place to detect it, and has still never seen it. They are going to be testing a vast range of samples, from those taken directly from the reaction vessels of seized labs, all the way to down to the finished product that was intercepted as it was being mailed out of the country. If 2,3-MDMA really is the problem, "mehDMA" is the isolated problem of a few American producers bamboozled by their chemical supplier and the solution for everyone would be to hop on a DNM and order directly from the largest Dutch vendor they can find.


Yeah I thought about that, and I do know that they're generally more apt to do what they can with regard to publicizing any info about novel substances, or oddities in widely distributed commercial psychoactives which weighs in against this theory significantly. I'm sure that the material I'm talking about is the same, cheap bulk substance coming from dutch labs. It's all I've seen here in the region of the US I'm in for years now. 






indigoaura said:


> @SelectiveSpeeding One of my meh samples did show trace amounts of MBDB present - https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8547



That's pretty odd. Every piece of info I've read regarding MDMA analogues seems to suggest that MBDB hasn't been made on a large scale for years, though "trace" amounts doesn't really suggest that necessarily. I'm not quite versed in chemistry enough to know if it can appear as a route-specific impurity in synthesizing MDMA. While we're on the topic of DrugsData- I've noticed that they've been posting some questionable results at times throughout the last year. Check this one out . MBDB, yes, and it's primary amine BDB sticking to the well known PiHKAL-inspired nomenclature are both well known.  I really can't see how someone with keen knowledge and the punctuality you'd expect from forensic toxicologists writes "MDB"...


----------



## mooka

TripSitterNZ said:


> there is no 2,3-mdp2p around. Any PMK been made in china is coming from safrole anyway for legitimate uses


I have to disagree on that, PMK coming from China is fully synthetic, otherwise we wouldn't be in this situation. Everything changed when the camphor oil with high safrole content coming from far east was banned in early 2000's



user666 said:


> But recrystallization is not an ideal process.
> Neither is trituration ...especially when solubilities are very similar.
> 
> Also, there are substances which crystallize together very well despite being composed of different molecules.
> For example, just look at the common cut of Methamphetamine which is known as Isopropylbenzylamine. It forms LARGER crystals with Methamphetamine than Methamphetamine alone !
> 
> BTW: The equivalent MD compound would be the N-(1,3-Benzodioxol-5-ylmethyl)-2-propanamine.


Ok.. let's play logic: 

IF a contaminant is present in big quantities (mg) THEN it'll be detected by standard analysis methods
IF a contaminant is present in minute quantities (ug) THEN it'll stay in the mother liquor

so even if re-x isn't the best available process still will tell us if there's a a cut or not, in your example the meth cut Isopropylbenzylamine gets detected by standard analysis methods.
in meh no one detects anything, hence the highly active contaminant with sedating effect theory become just a myth without any real ground


indigoaura said:


> There are contributors here who have access to magic, and I have meh. The problem is that we have nowhere to send the samples. Drugs Data was, at first, indicating they would assist me and provide more detailed information on my samples, but they have been largely non-communicative for a long time now.


what about a private lab? is that  a possibility or is not because of legal implications?


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

I’ve always thought that a regioisomer was the culprit, though I lack sufficient knowledge in chemistry to have any foundation to base that on. Anyhow, I'd to share some thoughts.

If we imagine that after safrole became very hard to come by, an evil chemist got the idea to start producing a regioisomer of MDMA from a precursor which wasn’t controlled. Which regioisomer would he choose? Can someone with chemistry knowledge figure that out?

From what I’ve read, normal GC-MS isn’t enough to easily differentiate MDMA from its regioisomers (there are some papers available on the subject, like this recent one: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Drug_Isomers_Using_Infrared_Ion_Spectroscopy)

So the question I think we should focus on is how can we get researchers with access to the right equipment interested in investigating our hypothesis? There must be plenty of labs around the world which could do it. Reading some papers regarding regioisomer of MDMA gives us names of researchers already knowledgeable in the subject. Can we/someone write a letter we can send to some of them? Maybe formulate it as a public health issue?

Thoughts?


----------



## Negi

SelectiveSpeeding said:


> Yeah I thought about that, and I do know that they're generally more apt to do what they can with regard to publicizing any info about novel substances, or oddities in widely distributed commercial psychoactives which weighs in against this theory significantly. I'm sure that the material I'm talking about is the same, cheap bulk substance coming from dutch labs. It's all I've seen here in the region of the US I'm in for years now.


If you look at the published research of the forensic chemist I emailed, he has four papers about detecting drug isomers using different methods (he even uses 2,3-MDMA and 3,4-MDMA as a specific test case in two of them). I'm pretty sure he's doing a PhD thesis on the topic. If he is saying that the Dutch police lab has never seen it, I'm willing to take that at face value.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> So the question I think we should focus on is how can we get researchers with access to the right equipment interested in investigating our hypothesis? There must be plenty of labs around the world which could do it. Reading some papers regarding regioisomer of MDMA gives us names of researchers already knowledgeable in the subject. Can we/someone write a letter we can send to some of them? Maybe formulate it as a public health issue?


I literally just did this on the last page. The researcher replied that they are aware of the possibility of MDMA isomers, have processes in place to detect them and have never seen any of them.


----------



## G_Chem

user666 said:


> Indeed someone in this tread had detected the glycidate of  2,3-MDP2P before, but I just searched all the posts here and the 2,3-MDMA has never been seen.



The member who analyzed those samples eventually deleted all his posts for reasons I’d rather not say on here.

Unfortunately we lost a lot of good info in the process if his analysis were actually legit, but his story seems peculiar to me as well so I don’t know...

It appears even his account is now deleted so maybe there was something to his story after all?

He was a chemist who analyzed batches of MDMA for friends, he found some weird ones but also found slight isomer variation with legit MDMA as well.  (Supposedly..)

-GC


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

Negi said:


> I literally just did this on the last page. The researcher replied that they are aware of the possibility of MDMA isomers, have processes in place to detect them and have never seen any of them.


Yes, I saw that. Great job! Through not clear to me if they've screened for all regioisomers, and it's only for the Netherlands - where I've gotten the impression legit product is common domestically. Anyhow, plenty of other researcher around the world to write to. The more  awareness, the better. And surely some people know the anser to our question - but so far they keep quiet. But nothing lasts forever.


----------



## G_Chem

I don’t trust the labs for shit when we are finding two samples from the same batch test different with different labs... This has consistently happened the few occasions people have “tested” this.

Either they are sloppy at what they do, or GC/MS ain’t foolproof.

-GC


----------



## Negi

PsychedelicSummer said:


> Through not clear to me if they've screened for all regioisomers


If you have a specific regioisomer in mind I can email them again and ask if it would show up.



PsychedelicSummer said:


> it's only for the Netherlands - where I've gotten the impression legit product is common domestically.


The Netherlands is the largest producer of MDMA in the world. Most of Europe's MDMA is produced there (large amounts of it also goes to the US via DNM orders). The researcher worked for the National Police Lab. So unless the groups producing the "mehDMA" for export have never had a lab busted, or even an outgoing shipment intercepted they would have been able to see it.


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi I would be very interested in knowing if your contact has any comment on synthesis byproducts present in samples. Are there always synthesis byproducts present? Why are those byproducts usually not reported by labs? 

I would be curious to know what he thinks of this research: https://sci-hub.st/http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/314/1/346.short

Is it plausible that synthesis byproducts could be present at levels that alter the effect of the substance due to transporter blocking or another mechanism?

After reading this article: https://sci-hub.st/https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0036476, I really feel that something is blocking the transporters. The graphs and illustrations here describe the Meh experience perfectly. 

So, either the MDMA is not actually MDMA but a regioisomer that appears to be MDMA, or there is something present in the sample that is interfering with the process. 

As for private labs...I am not very comfortable with the legal implications. Now, it may be that Oregon will become an option now that drugs are decriminalized there. Maybe a lab will pop up there where I could send samples without fear of them pursuing any legal action. I will have to keep an eye on that as things develop. If you have any recommendations for private labs, I am all ears.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

Negi said:


> If you have a specific regioisomer in mind I can email them again and ask if it would show up.


All of these 10:


----------



## Observer01

A 3rd party onlookers opinion....

This latest discussion from Negi sealed my opinion. I do not believe there is a material difference in the MDMA being mass produced today as compared to 20 years ago. When a product is scaled up in production to the size we see now due to increased popularity, I do agree that there will be a higher chance of receiving "poor" or not as "clean" product. When it was being produced for a smaller niche crowd I'm sure the chemists were taking more precautions and on the whole, producing better MDMA. However, on a mass scale, I believe it to be much the same product. 

After years discussing this subject, and arriving at no conclusive solution, it appears to my eyes there are a small number of folks on here grasping at straws.

You have essentially eliminated both the isomer argument as well as the contaminant argument. 

While there are plenty of trip reports out there describing sub par "meh" effects on Reddit etc, they are heavily and completely outnumbered by those describing the traditional MDMA experience. 

There is no judgement on my end for any of you who continue this work, and if something is found that contradicts my opinion, I will fully admit I was wrong and be glad that you discovered what that was. However, perhaps it is worth analyzing whether or not you are searching endlessly for something that does not exist. Perhaps MDMA has taught you all that you need to learn from it, and the experience will never be fully the same. This is not to say you can't enjoy it and benefit from it, but that endless sense of "magic" may be gone. Ann Shulgin confirmed this happened to her in her own speeches and writing. And that is truly OK. There are other substances, experiences, and adventures to have and grow from.


----------



## indigoaura

Observer01 said:


> A 3rd party onlookers opinion....
> 
> This latest discussion from Negi sealed my opinion. I do not believe there is a material difference in the MDMA being mass produced today as compared to 20 years ago. When a product is scaled up in production to the size we see now due to increased popularity, I do agree that there will be a higher chance of receiving "poor" or not as "clean" product. When it was being produced for a smaller niche crowd I'm sure the chemists were taking more precautions and on the whole, producing better MDMA. However, on a mass scale, I believe it to be much the same product.
> 
> After years discussing this subject, and arriving at no conclusive solution, it appears to my eyes there are a small number of folks on here grasping at straws.
> 
> You have essentially eliminated both the isomer argument as well as the contaminant argument.
> 
> While there are plenty of trip reports out there describing sub par "meh" effects on Reddit etc, they are heavily and completely outnumbered by those describing the traditional MDMA experience.
> 
> There is no judgement on my end for any of you who continue this work, and if something is found that contradicts my opinion, I will fully admit I was wrong and be glad that you discovered what that was. However, perhaps it is worth analyzing whether or not you are searching endlessly for something that does not exist. Perhaps MDMA has taught you all that you need to learn from it, and the experience will never be fully the same. This is not to say you can't enjoy it and benefit from it, but that endless sense of "magic" may be gone. Ann Shulgin confirmed this happened to her in her own speeches and writing. And that is truly OK. There are other substances, experiences, and adventures to have and grow from.



"You have essentially eliminated both the isomer argument as well as the contaminant argument."

How?

From the articles I have saved, it is repeatedly demonstrated that there are different byproduct profiles depending on synthesis route.

We also know that synthesis byproducts have activity on transporters.

I also know, due to direct correspondence with labs, that they do not report synthesis byproducts in their test results.

So, how is this theory disproven?


----------



## indigoaura

As I have said repeatedly, I am open to the problem being with me as an individual, and I am open to the problem being with the product.

In order for me to believe the problem is ME, I need to see SOMEONE actually rolling on the product. If I never see anyone getting the typical effects, then I have no evidence that the problem is me.


----------



## mind-body-soul

indigoaura said:


> As I have said repeatedly, I am open to the problem being with me as an individual, and I am open to the problem being with the product.
> 
> In order for me to believe the problem is ME, I need to see SOMEONE actually rolling on the product. If I never see anyone getting the typical effects, then I have no evidence that the problem is me.


The problem is def not you. It is def the drug. I abstained for many years after getting married. My last roll before i quit was probably 2004 and it was great as per norm. Fast forward to 2017 and i tried it again. Got fried but no soul searching thoughts, no internal peace, no ecstasy...asked a few of my friends (who has been using all along my period of abstinence) about this and i got a 'thats what its like these days'


----------



## Le Junk

Observer01 said:


> A 3rd party onlookers opinion....
> 
> This latest discussion from Negi sealed my opinion. I do not believe there is a material difference in the MDMA being mass produced today as compared to 20 years ago. When a product is scaled up in production to the size we see now due to increased popularity, I do agree that there will be a higher chance of receiving "poor" or not as "clean" product. When it was being produced for a smaller niche crowd I'm sure the chemists were taking more precautions and on the whole, producing better MDMA. However, on a mass scale, I believe it to be much the same product.
> 
> After years discussing this subject, and arriving at no conclusive solution, it appears to my eyes there are a small number of folks on here grasping at straws.
> 
> You have essentially eliminated both the isomer argument as well as the contaminant argument.
> 
> While there are plenty of trip reports out there describing sub par "meh" effects on Reddit etc, they are heavily and completely outnumbered by those describing the traditional MDMA experience.
> 
> There is no judgement on my end for any of you who continue this work, and if something is found that contradicts my opinion, I will fully admit I was wrong and be glad that you discovered what that was. However, perhaps it is worth analyzing whether or not you are searching endlessly for something that does not exist. Perhaps MDMA has taught you all that you need to learn from it, and the experience will never be fully the same. This is not to say you can't enjoy it and benefit from it, but that endless sense of "magic" may be gone. Ann Shulgin confirmed this happened to her in her own speeches and writing. And that is truly OK. There are other substances, experiences, and adventures to have and grow from.


Unfortunately, my very first post and starting of this thread contradicts your post. I still have old school MDMA and I’ve tried at least 10 different batches of new school lab tested MDMA and they’re all the same. Junk. Again, the pupils do not lie. From 1985-2010, complete pupil dilation was a given. And by dilation I mean as if you got them dilated at the eye doctor. All the way to the edge. This visual marker is non-negotiable and was taken as a given up until 2010. New school MDMA does not do this. So it doesn’t come down to an issue of he said she said, there is an actual visual marker that can tell the difference between old school lab tested MDMA and new school lab tested MDMA. If your pupils do not dilate all the way to the edge, you are fantasizing about how good you actually do feel versus how good you actually should feel. Never in my 35 years of doing ecstasy have I had an old school experience with my pupils not completely dilated to the edge. Because it will never happen. Other red flags are the amount of milligrams used in today’s pills versus what they used to be with old-school MDMA. They’re trying to make up for something. I can assure you the increase in milligrams is not the manufacturers doing you any favors. They know there’s a problem and they’re trying to make up for it. My theory, and keep in mind that I’m not a chemist when I say this, is the lack of safrole. Sometimes the most obvious answer has the easiest explanation. Safrole is no longer being used in production and thus the quality of the pills has changed. It seems to be the most logical answer to the equation but again I’m not a chemist. Back to the discussion....


----------



## Negi

I know there's a lot of discussion of pill dosage, but has anyone noticed a change in how capsules are dosed? From what I've seen 100mg (aka "one point") still seems to be the standard. Any theories why this hasn't changed if higher dosages are required to mask different effects?


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> I know there's a lot of discussion of pill dosage, but has anyone noticed a change in how capsules are dosed? From what I've seen 100mg (aka "one point") still seems to be the standard. Any theories why this hasn't changed if higher dosages are required to mask different effects?



In the U.K. MDMA is sold by the gram not point, they laugh about Americans selling points.

In the US, some areas still sell points cuz it’s good product, in other areas simply cuz it’s the standard elsewhere..

-GC


----------



## Negi

In the UK you can buy that gram for close to the price of the US point, which I think has a strong impact on the usage patterns. The change in UK prices and availability is been pretty incredible within the past 10 years, I've talked about it before:


Negi said:


> The price of alcohol hasn't dropped to nearly a 1/4 of what it once was at the same time that the bottles doubled in size (pill dosages going to over 200mg) and 1L jugs of pure alcohol became available (the ability to buy grams of powder MDMA).


----------



## FuckinAcidMan

Negi said:


> In the UK you can buy that gram for close to the price of the US point, which I think has a strong impact on the usage patterns. The change in UK prices and availability is been pretty incredible within the past 10 years, I've talked about it before:


That is fucked up from an anthropological and social engineering stand point. No wonder the UK folkz are mashing themselves up so bad. Its cheap as shit.


----------



## LandsUnknown

What's wrong with it these days? A lot, and every single problem with it is the direct result of criminalization. Pure MDMA is actually very safe. However, most of what's sold as MDMA these days is actually research chemicals, a mix of meth and MDMA, meth without MDMA, or even acid. Research chemicals come in many shapes and sizes, and the effects can be anything really. Some of them are likely also relatively safe, but others are very dangerous. It's completely random really, and there's new ones being created every day. So, the list of things that the "MDMA" could be gets longer every day. 

Meth obviously is completely different, and it also causes more side effects. Then, obviously acid is completely different obviously, and few if any people would want to take it unexpectedly for obvious reasons. So, really the "best" form of it that's available is in the form of pills and powders that have a lot of filler substances and a little bit of MDMA. Back in the 80s, MDMA was actually given during therapy sessions for people suffering from PTSD and other mental health issues. It was actually used as a legitimate medication, and it worked very well. Then, it got banned.


----------



## Negi

LandsUnknown said:


> However, most of what's sold as MDMA these days is actually research chemicals, a mix of meth and MDMA, meth without MDMA, or even acid.


This isn't true at all, except maybe for certain parts of the US. If you look at the results from scholarly research, harm reduction organizations and even law enforcement, most substances sold as MDMA are only MDMA. A key point of this thread is that the "mehDMA" people have shows as only MDMA when tested by reagents and laboratories.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> In the UK you can buy that gram for close to the price of the US point, which I think has a strong impact on the usage patterns. The change in UK prices and availability is been pretty incredible within the past 10 years, I've talked about it before:



Pill dosage increases mean nothing when the effects are barely increased relatively... I think it’s much better to look at relative purity of MDMA, in which case purity of loose MDMA crystal has gone down.  In 00‘S while harder to actually find “legit” MDMA, when found was much better purity cuz most of it was still going into presses and there was no need to leave impurities to bulk up the weight.

Also prices haven’t changed that much in the U.K., they’ve always been very cheap there relative to the US.

You’ve talked about a lot of things lol doesn’t mean your right.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> I think it’s much better to look at relative purity of MDMA, in which case purity of loose MDMA crystal has gone down. In 00‘S while harder to actually find “legit” MDMA, when found was much better purity cuz most of it was still going into presses and there was no need to leave impurities to bulk up the weight.


So you think that the higher doses of crystalline MDMA used in the UK are simply because there is less MDMA in the product they are taking?


----------



## Negi

Found some data about it: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/data/stats2020/ppp





(mean of all the values)

Doesn't seem that different from the rest of Europe. If you have data that shows otherwise, let me know.


----------



## indigoaura

We've really gone round and round with the issue of whether the increase in dosage is legitimate and/or relevant. Bottom line is that the product should, at some point, produce the effects of MDMA. 

If a pill like this one contains 254 mg of MDMA, then eating half of it should make you roll. Eating all of it should REALLY make you roll. https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=9330

Almost every published research article talks about 120 or 125 mg of MDMA as the ideal dosage. There is no reason why 125 mg of MDMA should produce a subpar experience unless the purity of the product is so low that taking 125 mg is not enough. If that is the case, then taking more should correct the problem, but it doesn't.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> If a pill like this one contains 254 mg of MDMA, then eating half of it should make you roll. Eating all of it should REALLY make you roll. https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=9330


That's why it has the breakline on the back. Reading reports lots of people take the 200mg+ pills as halves, using the second half as a redose to extend the roll (or saving it for later).


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> That's why it has the breakline on the back. Reading reports lots of people take the 200mg+ pills as halves, using the second half as a redose to extend the roll (or saving it for later).



I am not getting your point. I specifically acknowledged that the pill could be halved and that should be enough to still make you roll based on the dosage.

My point is that whatever the reason for the change in milligram dosage of pills, the bottom line is that once you cross a certain milligram threshold YOU SHOULD ROLL. If you are not rolling after you eat two of these 250+ mg pills, what is going on?


----------



## Simosom

Only magic can make you happy and dance like this, i cant see it anywhere across Europe these days.


----------



## indigoaura

Simosom said:


> Only magic can make you happy and dance like this, i cant see it anywhere across Europe these days.



Yeah, this is basically what all the house parties and concerts looked like in my area circa 1999-2002.  Check the jaws and the eyes. Also, people rolling around on the floor, in piles, losing clothes, stepping outside their typical sexual/gender preferences etc.

People were hesitant to take MDMA in public due to how obvious it was that you were high. Now, there are really no visual tells that anything is off.

Negi, I mean no disrespect, but I am curious how old you are. Were you circulating this type of scene in the late 90s early 00s? Have you had the experience of going to events like this with this vibe?

If it is not something that you experienced, then it is very hard to explain. I think the difference in the "vibe" that is created between magic MDMA and subpar MDMA is something better understood if you experienced that dichotomy in a direct way.


----------



## Negi

If you want people who are high to the point that they are jerking around with a wandering jaw, you can certainly still find that today: https://www.youtube.com/c/RoryStuff/videos

But no, I wasn't 17 back in 1999, so I haven't experienced that exact style of event during the prime of my youth. One thing that stands out to me from the video is the density of (apparent) MDMA users at one event. I don't think you see that these days for a variety of reasons (the RAVE act/crackhouse laws, mainstreaming of electronic music, the cyclical nature of drug use). If MDMA is the hot new drug in an age group and 70% of people at an event are on it, I would be amazed if that didn't produce a very different vibe than an event where ~20% of people are on it and the rest are drinking alcohol (maybe with a bit of cocaine or ketamine).


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> If you want people who are high to the point that they are jerking around with a wandering jaw, you can certainly still find that today: https://www.youtube.com/c/RoryStuff/videos
> 
> But no, I wasn't 17 back in 1999, so I haven't experienced that exact style of event during the prime of my youth. One thing that stands out to me from the video is the density of (apparent) MDMA users at one event. I don't think you see that these days for a variety of reasons (the RAVE act/crackhouse laws, mainstreaming of electronic music, the cyclical nature of drug use). If MDMA is the hot new drug in an age group and 70% of people at an event are on it, I would be amazed if that didn't produce a very different vibe than an event where ~20% of people are on it and the rest are drinking alcohol (maybe with a bit of cocaine or ketamine).



You are forgetting that many people are basing observations on house parties, not on mainstream events. 

You are right that it is a better vibe when everyone at a party is on E, but even if only a handful of people chose to participate (something that happened then and now), on quality ecstasy the experience would be good. The people on E would create their own mini-vibe within the party.

Five people at a party (experienced and new users) took E in 2000 and all ended up wide eyed, dancing, rubbing, and elated. Sample submitted to a lab and is MDMA.
Five people at a party (experienced and new users) take E in 2020 and no one can tell they are rolling, not even the people who took the E. Sample submitted to a lab and is MDMA. 

Something does not add up.

I am going back and re-reading the thread, and really, @Le Junk said it all within the first few pages. He is just fortunate enough to still have access to a constant supply of quality MDMA, while others in the thread are not that connected.


----------



## indigoaura

Maybe we do need to find a private lab with a robust privacy policy. Get a quote for a project that would run NMR, GCMS, and HPLC on multiple samples. If there is a difference, that should uncover it.


----------



## Observer01

Just in an attempt to provide an alternate viewpoint once again. 

To be clear, this is academic for me. I do not know the truth. I have my opinions, but that is it. This is my attempt to further the discussion by providing a different perspective, which I believe is healthy. 

Everyone here seems to put a lot of importance on the information provided by @LeJunk . In fact, 6000 plus posts stem from it. His experience is often brought up as a point to invalidate someone's argument when they say the MDMA today is the same as 30 years ago. 

I am most surely not saying he is being untruthful, as I have no way of knowing that. But it's important to remember that much of the basis of this entire thread relies heavily on the assumption that this person has had the same, consistent source of MDMA going back to 1985, and that is different from modern MDMA. 

While perusing other forums on here, I found a post in the cocaine section where Le Junk is telling other posters how the Cocaine today is vastly different from Coke 30 years ago. Sound familiar? 

@LeJunk....question, feel free to ignore. Are you operating with the same large stash from over 30 years ago? Or is your source still producing the same product that you continually purchase over and over again?


----------



## indigoaura

Observer01 said:


> Just in an attempt to provide an alternate viewpoint once again.
> 
> To be clear, this is academic for me. I do not know the truth. I have my opinions, but that is it. This is my attempt to further the discussion by providing a different perspective, which I believe is healthy.
> 
> Everyone here seems to put a lot of importance on the information provided by @LeJunk . In fact, 6000 plus posts stem from it. His experience is often brought up as a point to invalidate someone's argument when they say the MDMA today is the same as 30 years ago.
> 
> I am most surely not saying he is being untruthful, as I have no way of knowing that. But it's important to remember that much of the basis of this entire thread relies heavily on the assumption that this person has had the same, consistent source of MDMA going back to 1985, and that is different from modern MDMA.
> 
> While perusing other forums on here, I found a post in the cocaine section where Le Junk is telling other posters how the Cocaine today is vastly different from Coke 30 years ago. Sound familiar?
> 
> @LeJunk....question, feel free to ignore. Are you operating with the same large stash from over 30 years ago? Or is your source still producing the same product that you continually purchase over and over again?



I don't want to be rude. I appreciate people who come and offer a different perspective, I genuinely do.

However, in the early posts, Le Junk discussed the cocaine issue as well as his source and the answer to your questions. If you read maybe the first 5 pages of this thread, you will see all of this discussed.

For the people who have been in the thread for years and have read all 306 pages of posts in full, it can be frustrating when new contributors come in and comment in ways that make it seem like they are not familiar with the thread and the breadth of things that have been discussed and shared already. I realize it is an unwieldy thread and difficult to peruse, but still.

Le Junk is not the only person who has come into the thread and commented. I feel strongly that people should be taken at face value when they share their experiences in the thread.

There are multiple posters who have had access to typical MDMA and subpar MDMA and have had both tested with a lab. @Hilopsilo is one of those posters. Lab reported each sample as MDMA. He had an experience where a whole group of people found one sample to be subpar and another sample to be traditional in effect.

Another poster introduced his wife to MDMA (she had never used before), and they both had magical rolls until their local supplier vanished. They began ordering from other sources and never found a similar experience. One brand new user, one experienced user, but same end result.

It is not "a small number of folks on here grasping at straws." There are large numbers who have shared their experiences and then never posted again. Some of us are just more committed to remaining active in the thread than others.

I am going back through and making a list to better understand the total number of "meh" reports in the thread. I will post the data when I have it.


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi and @Observer01 

I would like to know both of your histories. Most people have been pretty transparent about their history for the thread.

Do you both use MDMA?
How long have you used MDMA?
How frequently?
If you do not use MDMA, what is your interest in the thread?
If you do use MDMA, what have your own experiences with the product been like? What range of effects have you experienced?
In general, where are you located (just a country, no specifics)?


----------



## Observer01

Funny enough, I have provided this exact history in this thread. I know there are a lot of pages and you engage a lot @indigoaura, but surprisingly you were the one that asked me these questions prior. Here is what I provided maybe a month ago in italics. ( I wouldn't expect you to remember that, just pointing out that I have indeed provided this). 

I am in the western USA, but seemingly have been able to source mostly good product through careful selection on the darkweb over the last ten years. Very early adopter of the technology back on the early silkroad days. 

I will also add....I have never, not once, purchased the dutch "super" pills. Always powder MDMA. This is mostly due to the fact that I like to control my exact dosage. 

_Experienced roller. I am 35 now, and started in 2009. I have never "stopped", but am very very respectful of the drug. I am a working professional with a wife and 2 kids. My MDMA use is not known to many except close friends and my wife. With that said, my use is down to 2 x per year. Before that never more than 3-4 times a year. Guessing maybe 40-50 experiences total over 12 years. No binging. My personality is generally cautious regarding these things. I have experimented with single dosages between 120 to as high of a single dose at 220. I prefer 150 now. Typically redose with half of original dose at 1.5 hours.

My first experience in 2009, which is when a lot of folks started reporting bad MDMA, was the typical magical experience. All of the amazingness and self discovery that you would expect.

As someone who wouldn't know how to find a drug dealer if he was my next door neighbor, I was an early adopter of the darkweb and have been ordering product there since about 2012. I am very careful with my vendors and do lots of research as these experiences for me are few and far between. I do not want to waste them on bad product.

By around 2016 I noticed a slight change in the experiences. Not really product related, just that I was more accustomed to it. It was predictable. As corny as it may sound, I felt that I had learned much of what I could from MDMA by then. I had uncovered hidden traumas, addressed them, and was the better for it. Recently with only 2 x year, I still get a great experience from the substance. I don't feel tolerance. Is it like the first 5 times I did it? No. But the drug is doing what the drug does. I know where I am going and know what to expect. To this day, it is still my favorite substance, and I treasure those 2 x year experiences. These days, it is more of a 4 hour break from daily life than anything else. It is a mini vacation of the mind. It is just more of a well worn path then the first few times and I can predict the timeline. I know the come up, the peak, the comedown, and how I will feel at each step along the way.

I have had batches across the years that are not as good as others. And 1 or 2 that were completely bunk._


----------



## indigoaura

I apologize, @Observer01. Now that I see your post, I remember it. I think I had you confused with another poster. I will go back and read through our exchange, because I probably already asked you all the follow up questions I want to ask you now. :D


----------



## indigoaura

Would this purchase be enough to settle the isomer issue?









						Student Polarimeter(Half Shade)  | eBay
					

Shade system : Half Shade device which is workable on Sodium light. Suitable For Education & Training in Physics, Chemistry, Pharmacy Institutions to find out relation between specific rotation and concentration per cm or per mm thick / path of various solutions.



					www.ebay.com
				




Would this allow me to check the isomers on all my samples from this time forward?


----------



## G_Chem

Check out this reddit post of hydrated MDMA polymorph, very pure.  This is how re-X’ed product should look (if enough water is present during, aka hydrated polymorph.)


-GC


----------



## sekio

> Would this purchase be enough to settle the isomer issue?



that would work just fine


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> Check out this reddit post of hydrated MDMA polymorph, very pure.
> 
> 
> MDMA water recrystallization photo guide coming soon from
> drugsarebeautiful
> 
> -GC


 Well, that is gorgeous.


----------



## indigoaura

sekio said:


> that would work just fine



Thank you!


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Would this purchase be enough to settle the isomer issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Student Polarimeter(Half Shade)  | eBay
> 
> 
> Shade system : Half Shade device which is workable on Sodium light. Suitable For Education & Training in Physics, Chemistry, Pharmacy Institutions to find out relation between specific rotation and concentration per cm or per mm thick / path of various solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would this allow me to check the isomers on all my samples from this time forward?


Yes, it will work to differentiate the enantiomers. A longer one would be more sensitive but require a larger sample.
Make sure the kit includes the light source.


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

I really don't have sufficient knowledge, but from the scientific papers I've read about identifying regioisomers of MDMA, it seems to demand much more complicated methods than a polarimeter. Or am I missing something?


----------



## mooka

indigoaura said:


> Would this purchase be enough to settle the isomer issue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Student Polarimeter(Half Shade)  | eBay
> 
> 
> Shade system : Half Shade device which is workable on Sodium light. Suitable For Education & Training in Physics, Chemistry, Pharmacy Institutions to find out relation between specific rotation and concentration per cm or per mm thick / path of various solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would this allow me to check the isomers on all my samples from this time forward?


Just for D-L isomers, not for regioisomers. Save your money 


PsychedelicSummer said:


> I really don't have sufficient knowledge, but from the scientific papers I've read about identifying regioisomers of MDMA, it seems to demand much more complicated methods than a polarimeter. Or am I missing something?


exactly


----------



## indigoaura

I never thought it would identify regioisomers. I am reading back through the thread, and the early posts discussed the D-L isomer issue more. If $150 will allow us to cross that off the list of potential issues, then it seems like a reasonable investment.


----------



## indigoaura

I have a new sample. 

Marquis = purple/black
Lieberman = immediate black
Mandelin = flash of green then almost red, then black. All very fast. 
Simon's = Circular rings of blue. Never saw anything like it. 

Product itself appears clear to yellow small crystals. Faint smell of anise. I will be sending it off to Drugs Data to see what it shows. The Simon's result was odd enough to make me want to see a lab report. Has anyone here ever seen blue rings in the Simon's result? My first thought is MDA and MDMA mixed, but not sure if that would make rings or not.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> The Simon's result was odd enough to make me want to see a lab report. Has anyone here ever seen blue rings in the Simon's result?


I do not rely on colorimetric reagent test results, because these results are unpredictable with different ambient conditions, concentrations/dilutions, reagent formulation variations which can change in time as these reagents age.

However, I would be very surprised if the DrugsData reported no major differences between substances which react differently to these reagents ...especially if these tests are made with the same reagents, at the same temperature, concentration and at the same time (...or only days apart).


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> I do not rely on colorimetric reagent test results, because these results are unpredictable with different ambient conditions, concentrations/dilutions, reagent formulation variations which can change in time as these reagents age.
> 
> However, I would be very surprised if the DrugsData reported no major differences between substances which react differently to these reagents ...especially if these tests are made with the same reagents, at the same temperature, concentration and at the same time (...or only days apart).



I usually don't either. I consider it a phase one test, with a lab test as phase 2. I'm not sure of what Drugs Data will or will not detect, but I could do side by side samples of various batches of product and this would be the only one that makes rings with the Simon's, so I don't think it is an issue of test age or ambient temperature.


----------



## G_Chem

I’ve never seen circular (concentric?) rings before... I have tested MDMA and MDA mixed batches before with very little change in the Simons.

I had a reagent trick for figuring out if it’s a mixed sample without using a Robadope to test for primary amines.  But my chemo is fucking my memory right now, I’ll dig through my notes/mind to see if I can find it.

It was some common reagent (Marquis, Mecke or Mandelin) and it turned a different color after about a minute of reacting.  It was sure fire too, I tested it multiple times on MDMA, MDA, and mixed batches to confirm.

Maybe you remember Indigo? It’s in this threD somewhere I know... I’ll look.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Found it...

“When using the Mecke reagent on MDA vs MDMA. They will react very similarly at the beginning but if you let the puddle sit for a few minutes the MDA will go a purple/maroon whereas the MDMA will stay that dark blue/black.

This trick is helpful for MDMA/MDA mixes when person testing doesn’t have a Robadope, just a Simons.”

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

My Mecke reagent has gone bad, so I can't test with that right now. I did send this sample off to the lab, so I will let you know what the result is.


----------



## agnosia

indigoaura said:


> My Mecke reagent has gone bad, so I can't test with that right now. I did send this sample off to the lab, so I will let you know what the result is.



Just like the meth test, mdma tests no longer work. Greed has ruined every drug. They're all made cheaply, but in a way to pass all the traditional tests. PERIOD. 

I took some mdma recently,, u you know from the best dealer around and it fucking sucked ass. The only place I can still relaibly get pure MDMA is in berlin germany where they make it. Costs 2 euros a pils. and you take one and your off your rocker for 10 hours.


----------



## Jmoda

agnosia said:


> Just like the meth test, mdma tests no longer work. Greed has ruined every drug. They're all made cheaply, but in a way to pass all the traditional tests. PERIOD.
> 
> I took some mdma recently,, u you know from the best dealer around and it fucking sucked ass. The only place I can still relaibly get pure MDMA is in berlin germany where they make it. Costs 2 euros a pils. and you take one and your off your rocker for 10 hours.


One pill....10 hours....sounds like theres definitely meth in those.


----------



## Bella Figura

If the only people (capable of) saying MDMA from 20-30 years ago isn't the same as the MDMA today, why don't we instead assume their brain chemistry has changed rather than the drug? Do I have to read 307 pages to find that out? lol


----------



## Jmoda

Bella Figura said:


> If the only people (capable of) saying MDMA from 20-30 years ago isn't the same as the MDMA today, why don't we instead assume their brain chemistry has changed rather than the drug? Do I have to read 307 pages to find that out? lol


I mean. Theres still one person who has two types and gets clearly distinctive experiences.


----------



## indigoaura

Bella Figura said:


> If the only people (capable of) saying MDMA from 20-30 years ago isn't the same as the MDMA today, why don't we instead assume their brain chemistry has changed rather than the drug? Do I have to read 307 pages to find that out? lol



Well, Bella Figura, like all good things, educating yourself on the issue certainly wouldn't hurt.

How about this...if you don't want to read the thread, then don't comment?

Or maybe, you could take the time to read the first few pages?

Shit, you would even answer this question if you read the first post.


----------



## Bella Figura

The thing is I've read through this thread a bunch of times, but it never really sticks out as having anything conclusive - hence 300 pages of speculation. Just asking a question  thanks for the helpful reply.


----------



## indigoaura

Bella Figura said:


> The thing is I've read through this thread a bunch of times, but it never really sticks out as having anything conclusive - hence 300 pages of speculation. Just asking a question  thanks for the helpful reply.


I'm confused. You post first and say "Do I have to read 307 pages" and the implication is that you have not read the thread. Then you post again and say you have read it "a bunch of times." Which is it?

If you had read the first post in full, you would know that the original poster had two different batches in his possession. Both were sent to a lab and showed to be MDMA. Both had different effects. Other older users have shared similar stories throughout the thread. It is not a tolerance issue because the questionable MDMA does not produce standard effects in virgin or new users either. 

It is absolutely 300 pages of speculation, but based on published research.

Issue could be contaminants that are not detected, but there is really no easy way to confirm this without having an advanced lab at our disposal.


----------



## Bella Figura

I haven't read the thread in its entirety no, I've been coming to the forum for a while now, and sometimes I read an old thread. Some threads never die, so you end up reading them a bunch of times, realise you've read it before and stop reading....

I wasn't referring to tolerance. I meant brain chemistry in general. The title itself is geared to leaning the discussion a certain way.

It's now 300 pages of speculation and totally avoidable grumpiness at the end. Thanks anywho!


----------



## indigoaura

Bella Figura said:


> I haven't read the thread in its entirety no, I've been coming to the forum for a while now, and sometimes I read an old thread. Some threads never die, so you end up reading them a bunch of times, realise you've read it before and stop reading....
> 
> I wasn't referring to tolerance. I meant brain chemistry in general. The title itself is geared to leaning the discussion a certain way.
> 
> It's now 300 pages of speculation and totally avoidable grumpiness at the end. Thanks anywho!



I apologize for being admittedly grumpy to you. You are not the first poster to come on the thread, complain about not wanting to read all of it, and then propose a suggestion that has been discussed ad nauseam.  I have grown frustrated with the phenomenon, and I reacted to your post not as an individual post but as one of many very similar posts. I'm sorry.


----------



## Bella Figura

Water under the bridge  don't stress. 307 pages is absurd that's why I pointed it out, I didn't think how frustrating it would be for people who follow the thread.


----------



## Bella Figura

Water under the bridge  don't stress. 307 pages is absurd that's why I pointed it out, I didn't think how frustrating it would be for people who follow the thread.


----------



## indigoaura

Bella Figura said:


> Water under the bridge  don't stress. 307 pages is absurd that's why I pointed it out, I didn't think how frustrating it would be for people who follow the thread.



It is unwieldly, and I am sure frustrating for people who come to check things out. I tried to summarize and that link was added at the very top of the first post, but even the summary leaves too much out.


----------



## indigoaura

Bella Figura said:


> Water under the bridge  don't stress. 307 pages is absurd that's why I pointed it out, I didn't think how frustrating it would be for people who follow the thread.



It is unwieldly, and I am sure frustrating for people who come to check things out. I tried to summarize and that link was added at the very top of the first post, but even the summary leaves too much out.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> I would like to know both of your histories. Most people have been pretty transparent about their history for the thread.
> 
> Do you both use MDMA?
> How long have you used MDMA?
> How frequently?
> If you do not use MDMA, what is your interest in the thread?
> If you do use MDMA, what have your own experiences with the product been like? What range of effects have you experienced?
> In general, where are you located (just a country, no specifics)?


I feel I have been transparent about my history, I've mentioned my usage on numerous occasions within this thread.

Do you both use MDMA?
Yes, I use MDMA.

How long have you used MDMA?
I have used MDMA since 2012.

How frequently?
I have had eight total sessions with MDMA. They were slightly front loaded onto the timeframe, some years I haven't taken any MDMA. Recently I've been taking MDMA once or twice a year (generally only on new years). I should note I've taken various other empathogens (5-MAPB, 6-APB, 3-MMC, 4-MMC, 3-FEA) during this time.

If you do use MDMA, what have your own experiences with the product been like? What range of effects have you experienced?
I have had mixed experiences with the different product I have obtained, generally in regards to the euphoria produced vs expected. That was what originally led me to this thread and hypothesis. However my experiences were not replicated when I sold or gifted the same batches of MDMA to others (universally positive results except for pills that I strongly suspected were underdosed). I also had atypical experiences (compared to online reports) to the various RC empathogens I tried, which has led me to suspect the issue was me. My most recent experience was much more in line with what I expected, so hopefully this has been resolved for me. I'll need to retry some of the prior product to confirm this.

In general, where are you located (just a country, no specifics)?
my first MDMA experience was in eastern Canada, every time since then the product has been sourced from various DNM vendors, ranging from free samples from NL vendors to premium domestic Canadian.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> I would like to know both of your histories. Most people have been pretty transparent about their history for the thread.
> 
> Do you both use MDMA?
> How long have you used MDMA?
> How frequently?
> If you do not use MDMA, what is your interest in the thread?
> If you do use MDMA, what have your own experiences with the product been like? What range of effects have you experienced?
> In general, where are you located (just a country, no specifics)?


I feel I have been transparent about my history, I've mentioned my usage on numerous occasions within this thread.

Do you both use MDMA?
Yes, I use MDMA.

How long have you used MDMA?
I have used MDMA since 2012.

How frequently?
I have had eight total sessions with MDMA. They were slightly front loaded onto the timeframe, some years I haven't taken any MDMA. Recently I've been taking MDMA once or twice a year (generally only on new years). I should note I've taken various other empathogens (5-MAPB, 6-APB, 3-MMC, 4-MMC, 3-FEA) during this time.

If you do use MDMA, what have your own experiences with the product been like? What range of effects have you experienced?
I have had mixed experiences with the different product I have obtained, generally in regards to the euphoria produced vs expected. That was what originally led me to this thread and hypothesis. However my experiences were not replicated when I sold or gifted the same batches of MDMA to others (universally positive results except for pills that I strongly suspected were underdosed). I also had atypical experiences (compared to online reports) to the various RC empathogens I tried, which has led me to suspect the issue was me. My most recent experience was much more in line with what I expected, so hopefully this has been resolved for me. I'll need to retry some of the prior product to confirm this.

In general, where are you located (just a country, no specifics)?
my first MDMA experience was in eastern Canada, every time since then the product has been sourced from various DNM vendors, ranging from free samples from NL vendors to premium domestic Canadian.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> I feel I have been transparent about my history, I've mentioned my usage on numerous occasions within this thread.
> 
> Do you both use MDMA?
> Yes, I use MDMA.
> 
> How long have you used MDMA?
> I have used MDMA since 2012.
> 
> How frequently?
> I have had eight total sessions with MDMA. They were slightly front loaded onto the timeframe, some years I haven't taken any MDMA. Recently I've been taking MDMA once or twice a year (generally only on new years). I should note I've taken various other empathogens (5-MAPB, 6-APB, 3-MMC, 4-MMC, 3-FEA) during this time.
> 
> If you do use MDMA, what have your own experiences with the product been like? What range of effects have you experienced?
> I have had mixed experiences with the different product I have obtained, generally in regards to the euphoria produced vs expected. That was what originally led me to this thread and hypothesis. However my experiences were not replicated when I sold or gifted the same batches of MDMA to others (universally positive results except for pills that I strongly suspected were underdosed). I also had atypical experiences (compared to online reports) to the various RC empathogens I tried, which has led me to suspect the issue was me. My most recent experience was much more in line with what I expected, so hopefully this has been resolved for me. I'll need to retry some of the prior product to confirm this.
> 
> In general, where are you located (just a country, no specifics)?
> my first MDMA experience was in eastern Canada, every time since then the product has been sourced from various DNM vendors, ranging from free samples from NL vendors to premium domestic Canadian.



Did you do anything or change anything recently that may have impacted your most recent experience? New supplements etc?

I think my own memory of this thread is starting to get sketchy. For some reason, I did not recall what your story was. Your experience seems to support the idea that the problem is with the individual user rather than the product, since those you gifted to had the expected results from the product.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> I feel I have been transparent about my history, I've mentioned my usage on numerous occasions within this thread.
> 
> Do you both use MDMA?
> Yes, I use MDMA.
> 
> How long have you used MDMA?
> I have used MDMA since 2012.
> 
> How frequently?
> I have had eight total sessions with MDMA. They were slightly front loaded onto the timeframe, some years I haven't taken any MDMA. Recently I've been taking MDMA once or twice a year (generally only on new years). I should note I've taken various other empathogens (5-MAPB, 6-APB, 3-MMC, 4-MMC, 3-FEA) during this time.
> 
> If you do use MDMA, what have your own experiences with the product been like? What range of effects have you experienced?
> I have had mixed experiences with the different product I have obtained, generally in regards to the euphoria produced vs expected. That was what originally led me to this thread and hypothesis. However my experiences were not replicated when I sold or gifted the same batches of MDMA to others (universally positive results except for pills that I strongly suspected were underdosed). I also had atypical experiences (compared to online reports) to the various RC empathogens I tried, which has led me to suspect the issue was me. My most recent experience was much more in line with what I expected, so hopefully this has been resolved for me. I'll need to retry some of the prior product to confirm this.
> 
> In general, where are you located (just a country, no specifics)?
> my first MDMA experience was in eastern Canada, every time since then the product has been sourced from various DNM vendors, ranging from free samples from NL vendors to premium domestic Canadian.



Did you do anything or change anything recently that may have impacted your most recent experience? New supplements etc?

I think my own memory of this thread is starting to get sketchy. For some reason, I did not recall what your story was. Your experience seems to support the idea that the problem is with the individual user rather than the product, since those you gifted to had the expected results from the product.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> Did you do anything or change anything recently that may have impacted your most recent experience? New supplements etc?


The recent experience actually had no supplements, compared to some of the previous lacking experiences where I was taking most of the recommended stack (ALA, ALCAR, etc). One time I had taken the MDMA one the same day as some NAC, and there's some confusion about what impact that might have had on it: 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/f7emci


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> Did you do anything or change anything recently that may have impacted your most recent experience? New supplements etc?


The recent experience actually had no supplements, compared to some of the previous lacking experiences where I was taking most of the recommended stack (ALA, ALCAR, etc). One time I had taken the MDMA one the same day as some NAC, and there's some confusion about what impact that might have had on it: 




__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/f7emci


----------



## fasterfb

Negi said:


> The recent experience actually had no supplements, compared to some of the previous lacking experiences where I was taking most of the recommended stack (ALA, ALCAR, etc). One time I had taken the MDMA one the same day as some NAC, and there's some confusion about what impact that might have had on it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/f7emci



I take NAC every day, and even take extra on MDMA days. I have not experienced any decrease in the effects of my roll.
BTW, I have been dosing MDMA once every 3 weeks for the past year or so with no increase in tolerance and no adverse effects.


----------



## fasterfb

Negi said:


> The recent experience actually had no supplements, compared to some of the previous lacking experiences where I was taking most of the recommended stack (ALA, ALCAR, etc). One time I had taken the MDMA one the same day as some NAC, and there's some confusion about what impact that might have had on it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/MDMA/comments/f7emci



I take NAC every day, and even take extra on MDMA days. I have not experienced any decrease in the effects of my roll.
BTW, I have been dosing MDMA once every 3 weeks for the past year or so with no increase in tolerance and no adverse effects.


----------



## indigoaura

I feel like Vitamin C will diminish the roll if I take it before I take the first dose. I had to change my approach there.

So, @Negi, with no supplements influencing this most recent experience, what are your theories for why your experience improved? Are there other factors at play?


----------



## indigoaura

I feel like Vitamin C will diminish the roll if I take it before I take the first dose. I had to change my approach there.

So, @Negi, with no supplements influencing this most recent experience, what are your theories for why your experience improved? Are there other factors at play?


----------



## Observer01

This is not truly related to the topic, but I do believe the participants here tend to be experienced and knowledgeable MDMA users. Therefore, I am posing it here. Who has direct experience using NAC as a supplement between rolls to enhance the experience? Success? Failure? No change?


----------



## Observer01

This is not truly related to the topic, but I do believe the participants here tend to be experienced and knowledgeable MDMA users. Therefore, I am posing it here. Who has direct experience using NAC as a supplement between rolls to enhance the experience? Success? Failure? No change?


----------



## indigoaura

Observer01 said:


> This is not truly related to the topic, but I do believe the participants here tend to be experienced and knowledgeable MDMA users. Therefore, I am posing it here. Who has direct experience using NAC as a supplement between rolls to enhance the experience? Success? Failure? No change?



I tried it and found no change in the quality of the rolls.


----------



## indigoaura

Observer01 said:


> This is not truly related to the topic, but I do believe the participants here tend to be experienced and knowledgeable MDMA users. Therefore, I am posing it here. Who has direct experience using NAC as a supplement between rolls to enhance the experience? Success? Failure? No change?



I tried it and found no change in the quality of the rolls.


----------



## fasterfb

Observer01 said:


> This is not truly related to the topic, but I do believe the participants here tend to be experienced and knowledgeable MDMA users. Therefore, I am posing it here. Who has direct experience using NAC as a supplement between rolls to enhance the experience? Success? Failure? No change?



It may not enhance the quality of the roll, but it may if you are somewhat burnt out with MDMA. 
You would probably have to take a regular regime of it to get results. It's not a one-shot fix.
It sure does quicken post-roll recovery for myself. I take good amounts (probably around 2 grams) during and especially at the end of the roll.
I also use it every day along with my other supplements:
- ALA
- ALCAR
- ECGC (green tea extract)
- milk thistle
- magnesium citrate
- zinc citrate
- taurine (lots!)
- vitamin B complex, B12, C, D, E

Grapefruit extract may prolong/enhance your roll. I take this pre-roll, but it's probably not necessary.
I used to take piracetam as well, which made a difference, but discontinued. It just wasn't necessary either as my rolls are always great.


----------



## fasterfb

Observer01 said:


> This is not truly related to the topic, but I do believe the participants here tend to be experienced and knowledgeable MDMA users. Therefore, I am posing it here. Who has direct experience using NAC as a supplement between rolls to enhance the experience? Success? Failure? No change?



It may not enhance the quality of the roll, but it may if you are somewhat burnt out with MDMA. 
You would probably have to take a regular regime of it to get results. It's not a one-shot fix.
It sure does quicken post-roll recovery for myself. I take good amounts (probably around 2 grams) during and especially at the end of the roll.
I also use it every day along with my other supplements:
- ALA
- ALCAR
- ECGC (green tea extract)
- milk thistle
- magnesium citrate
- zinc citrate
- taurine (lots!)
- vitamin B complex, B12, C, D, E

Grapefruit extract may prolong/enhance your roll. I take this pre-roll, but it's probably not necessary.
I used to take piracetam as well, which made a difference, but discontinued. It just wasn't necessary either as my rolls are always great.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

fasterfb said:


> It may not enhance the quality of the roll, but it may if you are somewhat burnt out with MDMA.
> You would probably have to take a regular regime of it to get results. It's not a one-shot fix.
> It sure does quicken post-roll recovery for myself. I take good amounts (probably around 2 grams) during and especially at the end of the roll.
> I also use it every day along with my other supplements:
> - ALA
> - ALCAR
> - ECGC (green tea extract)
> - milk thistle
> - magnesium citrate
> - zinc citrate
> - taurine (lots!)
> - vitamin B complex, B12, C, D, E
> 
> Grapefruit extract may prolong/enhance your roll. I take this pre-roll, but it's probably not necessary.
> I used to take piracetam as well, which made a difference, but discontinued. It just wasn't necessary either as my rolls are always great.



Jeez, how the fuck can you afford to take that lot as well as drugs?

A heroin habit would be cheaper...


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

fasterfb said:


> It may not enhance the quality of the roll, but it may if you are somewhat burnt out with MDMA.
> You would probably have to take a regular regime of it to get results. It's not a one-shot fix.
> It sure does quicken post-roll recovery for myself. I take good amounts (probably around 2 grams) during and especially at the end of the roll.
> I also use it every day along with my other supplements:
> - ALA
> - ALCAR
> - ECGC (green tea extract)
> - milk thistle
> - magnesium citrate
> - zinc citrate
> - taurine (lots!)
> - vitamin B complex, B12, C, D, E
> 
> Grapefruit extract may prolong/enhance your roll. I take this pre-roll, but it's probably not necessary.
> I used to take piracetam as well, which made a difference, but discontinued. It just wasn't necessary either as my rolls are always great.



Jeez, how the fuck can you afford to take that lot as well as drugs?

A heroin habit would be cheaper...


----------



## fasterfb

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Jeez, how the fuck can you afford to take that lot as well as drugs?
> 
> A heroin habit would be cheaper...



Lol, well I do buy them from bulk supplement places online, so that makes a significant cost savings. 
I also collect them gradually as they run out, so it's not a big outlay of cash all at once.
At any rate, I find that the health investment is worth it, especially since I am in my 60's.

And no, my former heroin addiction was significantly more expensive


----------



## fasterfb

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> Jeez, how the fuck can you afford to take that lot as well as drugs?
> 
> A heroin habit would be cheaper...



Lol, well I do buy them from bulk supplement places online, so that makes a significant cost savings. 
I also collect them gradually as they run out, so it's not a big outlay of cash all at once.
At any rate, I find that the health investment is worth it, especially since I am in my 60's.

And no, my former heroin addiction was significantly more expensive


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

fasterfb said:


> Lol, well I do buy them from bulk supplement places online, so that makes a significant cost savings.
> I also collect them gradually as they run out, so it's not a big outlay of cash all at once.
> At any rate, I find that the health investment is worth it, especially since I am in my 60's.
> 
> And no, my former heroin addiction was significantly more expensive



You've obviously never shopped at Holland & Barett then...

(UK 'health' supplement store)


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

fasterfb said:


> Lol, well I do buy them from bulk supplement places online, so that makes a significant cost savings.
> I also collect them gradually as they run out, so it's not a big outlay of cash all at once.
> At any rate, I find that the health investment is worth it, especially since I am in my 60's.
> 
> And no, my former heroin addiction was significantly more expensive



You've obviously never shopped at Holland & Barett then...

(UK 'health' supplement store)


----------



## fasterfb

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> You've obviously never shopped at Holland & Barett then...
> 
> (UK 'health' supplement store)



No, I get all my supplements in Canada


----------



## fasterfb

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> You've obviously never shopped at Holland & Barett then...
> 
> (UK 'health' supplement store)



No, I get all my supplements in Canada


----------



## indigoaura

For whatever it is worth, I did not just try NAC once. I followed the protocol laid out in the published research about methamphetamine users and damaged dopamine systems. I can't recall now what it was, but there is a thread somewhere on BL. I had other notable effects from NAC that made it difficult for me to maintain the dosage in the study, but I did take it throughout a month or so before a roll to see if I would have any notable change. 

One supplement that did seem too improve my roll was citicoline. Maybe it was coincidence, but the roll I had after that was better than usual. However, the citicoline increased the frequency and intensity of my migraines, so I discontinued it.


----------



## indigoaura

For whatever it is worth, I did not just try NAC once. I followed the protocol laid out in the published research about methamphetamine users and damaged dopamine systems. I can't recall now what it was, but there is a thread somewhere on BL. I had other notable effects from NAC that made it difficult for me to maintain the dosage in the study, but I did take it throughout a month or so before a roll to see if I would have any notable change. 

One supplement that did seem too improve my roll was citicoline. Maybe it was coincidence, but the roll I had after that was better than usual. However, the citicoline increased the frequency and intensity of my migraines, so I discontinued it.


----------



## Diego G

Greetings to all

My name is Diego, I´m from southern Europe and I´m new arround here.

I have read several pages of this thread and I would like to share my experience with mdma. I have been using mdma since the late 90s. Some years I did not use anything, and others 1, 2 or 3 times. They were always doses of approximately 80-100- 150 mg, almost always analyzed in Energy Control. The last few times I have had it mixed with mushrooms and dancing, and I must say that it is a real delight for the senses.

All the experiences were very satisfactory, reaching the desired effects. Strong euphoria, stimulation, disinhibition, desire to dance and strong emotional connection. Over time I have not noticed fundamental variations in experiences. Just one. At first they were more innocent experiences and now they are somewhat more mature but it is normal. At the end of the 90s I was more innocent and now a little less.

I keep reading your coments.


----------



## Diego G

Greetings to all

My name is Diego, I´m from southern Europe and I´m new arround here.

I have read several pages of this thread and I would like to share my experience with mdma. I have been using mdma since the late 90s. Some years I did not use anything, and others 1, 2 or 3 times. They were always doses of approximately 80-100- 150 mg, almost always analyzed in Energy Control. The last few times I have had it mixed with mushrooms and dancing, and I must say that it is a real delight for the senses.

All the experiences were very satisfactory, reaching the desired effects. Strong euphoria, stimulation, disinhibition, desire to dance and strong emotional connection. Over time I have not noticed fundamental variations in experiences. Just one. At first they were more innocent experiences and now they are somewhat more mature but it is normal. At the end of the 90s I was more innocent and now a little less.

I keep reading your coments.


----------



## dextroisomer

I started to roll in 1998. And OMG! For some strange reason, the names had something to do with the way the ecstasy or the MDMA in the stamped had to say. For example, Peaches and Cream: You felt as smooth and creamy. Butterflies: The MDMA in the batch would come in waves of warm bliss and euphoria, just like the subtle flapping of the wings of a butterfly. Hugs and Kisses: Felt all lovey dovey. I dont think it has to do with LSD or psychology. They all hit in an awesome and unique way. Todays are good but something about them are not as long lasting and different.


----------



## dextroisomer

I started to roll in 1998. And OMG! For some strange reason, the names had something to do with the way the ecstasy or the MDMA in the stamped had to say. For example, Peaches and Cream: You felt as smooth and creamy. Butterflies: The MDMA in the batch would come in waves of warm bliss and euphoria, just like the subtle flapping of the wings of a butterfly. Hugs and Kisses: Felt all lovey dovey. I dont think it has to do with LSD or psychology. They all hit in an awesome and unique way. Todays are good but something about them are not as long lasting and different.


----------



## Negi

dextroisomer said:


> Todays are good but something about them are not as long lasting and different.


When did you first notice the change in MDMA effects, and has it been consistent since you first encountered it?


----------



## Negi

dextroisomer said:


> Todays are good but something about them are not as long lasting and different.


When did you first notice the change in MDMA effects, and has it been consistent since you first encountered it?


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> For whatever it is worth, I did not just try NAC once. I followed the protocol laid out in the published research about methamphetamine users and damaged dopamine systems. I can't recall now what it was, but there is a thread somewhere on BL. I had other notable effects from NAC that made it difficult for me to maintain the dosage in the study, but I did take it throughout a month or so before a roll to see if I would have any notable change.
> 
> One supplement that did seem too improve my roll was citicoline. Maybe it was coincidence, but the roll I had after that was better than usual. However, the citicoline increased the frequency and intensity of my migraines, so I discontinued it.



Different topic, but I was wondering if you ever got a chance to check out 5-MAPB?
If so, how did you like it?


----------



## fasterfb

indigoaura said:


> For whatever it is worth, I did not just try NAC once. I followed the protocol laid out in the published research about methamphetamine users and damaged dopamine systems. I can't recall now what it was, but there is a thread somewhere on BL. I had other notable effects from NAC that made it difficult for me to maintain the dosage in the study, but I did take it throughout a month or so before a roll to see if I would have any notable change.
> 
> One supplement that did seem too improve my roll was citicoline. Maybe it was coincidence, but the roll I had after that was better than usual. However, the citicoline increased the frequency and intensity of my migraines, so I discontinued it.



Different topic, but I was wondering if you ever got a chance to check out 5-MAPB?
If so, how did you like it?


----------



## indigoaura

fasterfb said:


> Different topic, but I was wondering if you ever got a chance to check out 5-MAPB?
> If so, how did you like it?



No, I have not had a chance.


----------



## indigoaura

fasterfb said:


> Different topic, but I was wondering if you ever got a chance to check out 5-MAPB?
> If so, how did you like it?



No, I have not had a chance.


----------



## Jmoda

fasterfb said:


> I take NAC every day, and even take extra on MDMA days. I have not experienced any decrease in the effects of my roll.
> BTW, I have been dosing MDMA once every 3 weeks for the past year or so with no increase in tolerance and no adverse effects.


From personal experience, this will eventually catch up with you. Would try and be alert for short term memory issues that may manifest.


----------



## Jmoda

dextroisomer said:


> I started to roll in 1998. And OMG! For some strange reason, the names had something to do with the way the ecstasy or the MDMA in the stamped had to say. For example, Peaches and Cream: You felt as smooth and creamy. Butterflies: The MDMA in the batch would come in waves of warm bliss and euphoria, just like the subtle flapping of the wings of a butterfly. Hugs and Kisses: Felt all lovey dovey. I dont think it has to do with LSD or psychology. They all hit in an awesome and unique way. Todays are good but something about them are not as long lasting and different.


I know people will say this is placebo and what not, but i get this 100%. Different batches of mdma can have their own signature feel. I totally have gotten the "creamy" roll before (wasnt a pressed pill that said this or anything), from independent observation in the moment!


----------



## Jmoda

dextroisomer said:


> I started to roll in 1998. And OMG! For some strange reason, the names had something to do with the way the ecstasy or the MDMA in the stamped had to say. For example, Peaches and Cream: You felt as smooth and creamy. Butterflies: The MDMA in the batch would come in waves of warm bliss and euphoria, just like the subtle flapping of the wings of a butterfly. Hugs and Kisses: Felt all lovey dovey. I dont think it has to do with LSD or psychology. They all hit in an awesome and unique way. Todays are good but something about them are not as long lasting and different.


I know people will say this is placebo and what not, but i get this 100%. Different batches of mdma can have their own signature feel. I totally have gotten the "creamy" roll before (wasnt a pressed pill that said this or anything), from independent observation in the moment!


----------



## G_Chem

Jmoda said:


> I know people will say this is placebo and what not, but i get this 100%. Different batches of mdma can have their own signature feel. I totally have gotten the "creamy" roll before (wasnt a pressed pill that said this or anything), from independent observation in the moment!



I too 100% agree and feel it clouds the overall discussion as well.  It’s hard to pinpoint what’s meh and magic when each batch has its own unique feel.

Over the years I’ve been able to nail down some of differences (which I talked about in another thread) batch to batch which I attribute to small variations in isomers, impurities, and polymorphs.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Jmoda said:


> I know people will say this is placebo and what not, but i get this 100%. Different batches of mdma can have their own signature feel. I totally have gotten the "creamy" roll before (wasnt a pressed pill that said this or anything), from independent observation in the moment!



I too 100% agree and feel it clouds the overall discussion as well.  It’s hard to pinpoint what’s meh and magic when each batch has its own unique feel.

Over the years I’ve been able to nail down some of differences (which I talked about in another thread) batch to batch which I attribute to small variations in isomers, impurities, and polymorphs.

-GC


----------



## BlueBull

This thread is now locked because we have gone over the 250 pages soft limit a while ago, you can continue discussion in the v2 thread. I have copied over the last 2 pages of replies for convenience. If you want more replies copied over, just let me know. Link to new thread: Click here


----------



## thegreenhand

Nothing to contribute other than thank you for a new thread


----------



## indigoaura

I honestly feel like we should just get rid of all these replies from the last thread and use the first few posts of this new, clean thread to post relevant research articles that might cast light on this issue, or particularly relevant posts from the other thread. No reason to clog this new thread up immediately with chatter. What does everyone else think? If the first 5-10 posts were all research based, relevant information, I think that would be helpful to everyone who comes to peruse the thread.

@BlueBull - Can we get rid of all the bullshit posts and just start 100% fresh?


----------



## psy997

It would be nice to be able to add some more summarization info to the first post of this new thread, @BlueBull



> I honestly feel like we should just get rid of all these replies from the last thread and use the first few posts of this new, clean thread to post relevant research articles that might cast light on this issue, or particularly relevant posts from the other thread. No reason to clog this new thread up immediately with chatter. What does everyone else think? If the first 5-10 posts were all research based, relevant information, I think that would be helpful to everyone who comes to peruse the thread.



Nice timing, indigo. I agree completely. We have a good chance to accelerate the rate that new visitors are able to catch up. We should use this new thread's first posts specifically for providing the latest information and hypotheses.


----------



## sassyfrass

I have found a definitave difference between magic and meh
having tried both on multiple occasions.

and that is *Taste*.

All MD tastes like bitter ass but magic has a very distinct taste i can only describe as burnt tire.
its a very noticable difference that i have encountered mostly in brown colored MD but have also encountered it in purple appearance.

though i have also had brown/purple/clear meh.


----------



## BlueBull

indigoaura said:


> I honestly feel like we should just get rid of all these replies from the last thread and use the first few posts of this new, clean thread to post relevant research articles that might cast light on this issue, or particularly relevant posts from the other thread. No reason to clog this new thread up immediately with chatter. What does everyone else think? If the first 5-10 posts were all research based, relevant information, I think that would be helpful to everyone who comes to peruse the thread.
> 
> @BlueBull - Can we get rid of all the bullshit posts and just start 100% fresh?





psy997 said:


> Nice timing, indigo. I agree completely. We have a good chance to accelerate the rate that new visitors are able to catch up. We should use this new thread's first posts specifically for providing the latest information and hypotheses.


That's possible yes, of course. Is everyone agreed in this or are there objections? If there is agreement, you can just go ahead and post the research/summary posts as you say and when they are satisfactory, I will hide everything else so you're just left with those posts as the first ones. Do you still want to keep the original first post as an intro?


----------



## psy997

Thanks BlueBull. Maybe the first post as is, with a link at the top to the post, which maybe is the second after the OP?


----------



## indigoaura

Thanks @BlueBull. I think the first post should stay as it currently is with the link. I will work on getting a research summary typed.


----------



## G_Chem

While ya’ll start compiling I’ll add yet another example showing how MDMA can vary...

As we know safrole, particularly American sassafras oil, was most prevalently used in the 90’s and early 00’s.  Even when safrole was still being used there was a switch over to international sources of safrole which had a different constituents.

Here’s a ref which says they analyzed sassafras oil (presumably American sassafras) and found camphor, eugenol, dimethoxyalyllbenzene (methyl eugenol) and trimethoxyalyllbenzene (elemicin).

*Gas Chromatographic and Mass Spectrometric Analysis of Samples from a Clandestine Laboratory Involved in the Synthesis of Ecstacy from Sassafras Oil*
_F.T. Noggle, Jr., C. Randall Clark and Jack DeRuiter_
Journal of Chromatographic Science, Vol. 29, 168-173 (1991)

What does this mean? Well by the sounds of many old school 90’s pills still reaking of sass it’s likely that they may have had at least residual amounts of these other compounds (even with a distillation it’s possible some made it through) which would then proceed the same as MDMA to create 3,4-DMA and 3,4,5-TMA.

Both of these compounds are known to be psychoactive and I’d bet even a couple of mg of TMA would alter the experience.

Here’s also a case report as well as a side study on said case report where 3,4-DMA was found in an ecstasy sample with MDMA.  While it’s obvious by the blood levels that the 3,4-Dma was added intentionally, it’s interesting to note that it inhibited an enzyme needed to excrete MDMA which for this young lady went bad.  They suspect it was added to help potentiates the MDMA.

While I believe the dosage was probably equal to the dosage of MDMA in the pill, I wonder what a couple mg would do with a standard dose of MDMA?






						A Case of 3,4-Dimethoxyamphetamine (3,4-DMA) and 3,4 Methylendioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) Toxicity with Possible Metabolic Interaction – OPEN Foundation
					






					www.stichtingopen.nl
				






			http://www.fresno.ucsf.edu/em/posters/34DMA_MDMA.pdf
		



So to recap, old school safrole MDMA made via Leuckart had at least 6 or so different active impurities all of which would likely alter the experience in some way different from today’s product.  Was it better? Maybe.  Is good MDMA still around? You bet your ass it is!

Those active impurities one more time..  MDA, TMA, 3,4-DMA, n-formyl-MDMA, MDDMA, and the two compounds in that one study too long to say again lol.

The 3,4-DMA interests me in particular as it seems like it could be culprit for why MDMA used to last so much longer... The batches which I’ve found to have that all night lingering effect also were safrole smelling.

-GC


----------



## sassyfrass

Great research gchem.

So hypothetically if one acquired both Magic and Meh,
is there no practical way to find the chemical differences?


----------



## G_Chem

sassyfrass said:


> Great research gchem.
> 
> So hypothetically if one acquired both Magic and Meh,
> is there no practical way to find the chemical differences?



Unfortunately not yet  My reagent tests for the most part have proven me wrong.  That said, idk if I have a true “meh” batch to work with either...

Another thing I found interesting which may pertain to this issue...  It seems that even though supposedly MDMA quality is going up, MDMA use as a whole has actually dropped in many places.  You’d think with quality much higher than 10yrs ago, more people in general, the use would have risen but nope.

Even more fascinating is that while use per person has been dropping in many areas, the overall MDMA found in wastewater in the EU has gone up by almost 6x in the last 10yrs!

So essentially less people using the drug but a lot more of it in the water cuz back 10yrs ago was the “drought” where most pills especially in the EU were bunk.

Why would less people be using a drug that’s supposedly higher quality, and those that use the drug require MUCH higher doses?

While I am perfectly content with my product all of these things together do keep me a believer..  It just all doesn’t make sense.









						Past year MDMA users U.S. 2009-2020 | Statista
					

In 2020, it was estimated that around 2.6 million people in the United States had used ecstasy, also known as MDMA or Molly, in the past year.




					www.statista.com
				




Edit- Can’t find the other study but did find enough to see UK has steadily been on the decline since 01.

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

G_Chem said:


> Edit- Can’t find the other study but did find enough to see UK has steadily been on the decline since 01.
> 
> -GC



From what I can gather, the UK youth these days prefers cut to shit coke, cut to shit ketamine and fake xanax bars rather than cut to shit MDMA...


----------



## G_Chem

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> From what I can gather, the UK youth these days prefers cut to shit coke, cut to shit ketamine and fake xanax bars rather than cut to shit MDMA...



Same around here im afraid, except it’s all not cut to shit but ya coke n ket for many  I still loath the day my friends all converted, still remember a festival where I was the only one dancing and look back to my group of 20 or so all sitting down looking faded as fuck.  Mildly sickening.  Then all the drama the next morning when everyone feels like dog shit from all the cocaine.

One day we’ll have it all back, one day...

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Favor to ask and I’ll be back with some very relevant info before long..

Could someone who’s trekking back through the last thread find where me and @Negi talk about n-formylamphetamine and there’s possibly a link or ref to some article which gave percentages of n-formyl intermediates (Amphetamine and methamphetamine respectively).

If I’m remembering correctly the average was like 15-25% right? Anyone who could help me out will be appreciated.

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> Favor to ask and I’ll be back with some very relevant info before long..
> 
> Could someone who’s trekking back through the last thread find where me and @Negi talk about n-formylamphetamine and there’s possibly a link or ref to some article which gave percentages of n-formyl intermediates (Amphetamine and methamphetamine respectively).
> 
> If I’m remembering correctly the average was like 15-25% right? Anyone who could help me out will be appreciated.
> 
> -GC








						What is wrong with the MDMA available today?
					

They mean NN Dimethylamino Methylenedioxy Amphetamine, MDMA with an extra methyl which is very much reduced activity.   I though MDMA with an extra methyl was referred to as MDDMA, Methylenedioxydimethylamphetamine.  This naming has been used since the Shulgin days so unlikely to have changed...




					www.bluelight.org
				




It's not an general average, just the percentage found in one sample.  Reading the paper, n-formylamphetamine was only found in 28 out of 761 amphetamine containing samples (3.68% ).


----------



## Jmoda

So basically we just need 3,4-DMA and TMA to mix in with the mdma of today and we should be good to go right? Either that or get a seizure like that one lad.


----------



## cryptix420

My connect charges <<cut price>> for a gram of MDMA, but it is verifiably made from sassafras bark.

Contrast that with about <<cut price>> on the darkweb.....clearly there is a big difference there.

I have yet to try this stuff, haven't had the right occasion. but I'm curious if it will be like the good old stuff.


----------



## Jmoda

cryptix420 said:


> My connect charges <<cut price>> for a gram of MDMA, but it is verifiably made from sassafras bark.
> 
> Contrast that with about <<cut price>> on the darkweb.....clearly there is a big difference there.
> 
> I have yet to try this stuff, haven't had the right occasion. but I'm curious if it will be like the good old stuff.


<<cut price>> is a big leap of faith without even trying haha


----------



## Negi

cryptix420 said:


> My connect charges <<cut price>> for a gram of MDMA, but it is verifiably made from sassafras bark.


I'm quite curious what verification method was used.


----------



## sassyfrass

i can verify magic will usually come at a higher cost. the dealer will know its good.


----------



## AutoTripper

Jmoda said:


> I know people will say this is placebo and what not, but i get this 100%. Different batches of mdma can have their own signature feel. I totally have gotten the "creamy" roll before (wasnt a pressed pill that said this or anything), from independent observation in the moment!





G_Chem said:


> I too 100% agree and feel it clouds the overall discussion as well.  It’s hard to pinpoint what’s meh and magic when each batch has its own unique feel.
> 
> Over the years I’ve been able to nail down some of differences (which I talked about in another thread) batch to batch which I attribute to small variations in isomers, impurities, and polymorphs.
> 
> -GC


I agree with this as well guys, from 1996. Certain presses just had rheir own special magic signature and quality. No way could I accept it being just dosage related, and the whole set/setting supposition is abused IMO, whipped out any time as a simple explanation.


----------



## BlueBull

cryptix420 said:


> My connect charges <<cut price>> for a gram of MDMA, but it is verifiably made from sassafras bark.
> 
> Contrast that with about <<cut price>> on the darkweb.....clearly there is a big difference there.
> 
> I have yet to try this stuff, haven't had the right occasion. but I'm curious if it will be like the good old stuff.


We do not allow price discussion anywhere on the MED forum, please keep that in mind. I'm on my cellphone now but I'll edit out the price later today, or you can do it yourself


----------



## psy997

BlueBull said:


> We do not allow price discussion anywhere on the MED forum, please keep that in mind. I'm on my cellphone now but I'll edit out the price later today, or you can do it yourself


I think it's actually a BL wide rule, for everyone's reference


----------



## BlueBull

psy997 said:


> I think it's actually a BL wide rule, for everyone's reference


There are certain sections that do allow it for small quantities, EADD is an example. But in general indeed, it's a site-wide rule

I have edited the posts as announced


----------



## Rectify

I'm on what feels to be approximately 30 to 35 milligrams MDMA.HCl ('Ecstasy' pills or rolls) from a Red Bull pressed pill.  Feels pretty good!


----------



## Rectify

Didn't sleep last night.  Who knows what?  I don't.


----------



## indigoaura

Got back the results for my recent sample (not consumed yet).









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #9535 - MDMA, 9535
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




Pleased to see that I have submitted a sample that comes back as just MDMA. Not MDMA + MDA, or MDMA + some weird byproduct. Of course, I don't know what the percentage of purity is, but at least there are not some weird remnants of the synth process that are showing up in the sample. Guessing the Simon's reaction must just be due to my Simon's test getting old.

Also, this submission has made me realize something potentially significant.

They say that I sent 20 mg, but I weighed this before I sent it and my scale said it was about 60 mg. 

Could my issue be that I have a bad scale? Seriously. If my scale is weighing out mg significantly "off," then that would explain A LOT. Have we even discussed this here?


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

indigoaura said:


> Could my issue be that I have a bad scale? Seriously. If my scale is weighing out mg significantly "off," then that would explain A LOT. Have we even discussed this here?



I doubt it tbh. It's been stated many times that even upping the dose significantly doesn't turn meh into magic, it just creates a stronger meh experience.


----------



## indigoaura

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> I doubt it tbh. It's been stated many times that even upping the dose significantly doesn't turn meh into magic, it just creates a stronger meh experience.



True, and I have one of the most accurate scales on the market.


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

Probably one of the lab workers 'taxing' the samples. I know I would...  :D


----------



## Negi

You can get an ok set of calibration weights for $15 on Amazon, so this is probably the easiest theory yet to test.


----------



## G_Chem

Nvm I found it, when the n-formyl intermediate is found it’s usually in 15-20% amounts.

@indigoaura one thing I notice about the reagent results is how brown the Marquis looks, to me that puddle looks different than what I usually see.  But maybe it’s down to some variable like older reagent or something..

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> Nvm I found it, when the n-formyl intermediate is found it’s usually in 15-20% amounts.
> 
> @indigoaura one thing I notice about the reagent results is how brown the Marquis looks, to me that puddle looks different than what I usually see.  But maybe it’s down to some variable like older reagent or something..
> 
> -GC



Yeah, I really wonder about the variation in reagent results.

Just look at the difference in all my samples, for example:

Known Meh - https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8547
Known Meh - https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8546
Known Meh (but a bit better than most) - https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=6072 (this was a sample I only had very little of. Never got to experiment with higher doses)
Unknown (new) - https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=9535 (You can see the weird circling effect on the top marquis and mecke results)

@G_Chem's known magic - https://www.drugsdata.org/view.php?id=8890

I have long wondered about the distinction in the written Mandelin results. Why Purple-Blue-Black for some and Purple-Brown for others? Is this just a matter of individual difference in how the lab techs note the results? My meh samples were both recorded as purple-brown, your sample was purple-blue-black, and my new sample was blue-purple. Yet, this does not line up with what I SEE in the results as they are pictured.


----------



## indigoaura

G_Chem said:


> While ya’ll start compiling I’ll add yet another example showing how MDMA can vary...
> 
> As we know safrole, particularly American sassafras oil, was most prevalently used in the 90’s and early 00’s.  Even when safrole was still being used there was a switch over to international sources of safrole which had a different constituents.
> 
> Here’s a ref which says they analyzed sassafras oil (presumably American sassafras) and found camphor, eugenol, dimethoxyalyllbenzene (methyl eugenol) and trimethoxyalyllbenzene (elemicin).
> 
> *Gas Chromatographic and Mass Spectrometric Analysis of Samples from a Clandestine Laboratory Involved in the Synthesis of Ecstacy from Sassafras Oil*
> _F.T. Noggle, Jr., C. Randall Clark and Jack DeRuiter_
> Journal of Chromatographic Science, Vol. 29, 168-173 (1991)
> 
> What does this mean? Well by the sounds of many old school 90’s pills still reaking of sass it’s likely that they may have had at least residual amounts of these other compounds (even with a distillation it’s possible some made it through) which would then proceed the same as MDMA to create 3,4-DMA and 3,4,5-TMA.
> 
> Both of these compounds are known to be psychoactive and I’d bet even a couple of mg of TMA would alter the experience.
> 
> Here’s also a case report as well as a side study on said case report where 3,4-DMA was found in an ecstasy sample with MDMA.  While it’s obvious by the blood levels that the 3,4-Dma was added intentionally, it’s interesting to note that it inhibited an enzyme needed to excrete MDMA which for this young lady went bad.  They suspect it was added to help potentiates the MDMA.
> 
> While I believe the dosage was probably equal to the dosage of MDMA in the pill, I wonder what a couple mg would do with a standard dose of MDMA?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Case of 3,4-Dimethoxyamphetamine (3,4-DMA) and 3,4 Methylendioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) Toxicity with Possible Metabolic Interaction – OPEN Foundation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stichtingopen.nl
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fresno.ucsf.edu/em/posters/34DMA_MDMA.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So to recap, old school safrole MDMA made via Leuckart had at least 6 or so different active impurities all of which would likely alter the experience in some way different from today’s product.  Was it better? Maybe.  Is good MDMA still around? You bet your ass it is!
> 
> Those active impurities one more time..  MDA, TMA, 3,4-DMA, n-formyl-MDMA, MDDMA, and the two compounds in that one study too long to say again lol.
> 
> The 3,4-DMA interests me in particular as it seems like it could be culprit for why MDMA used to last so much longer... The batches which I’ve found to have that all night lingering effect also were safrole smelling.
> 
> -GC



This is all very interesting. I had commented earlier in the thread about how different types of sassafras trees have different combinations and amounts of active ingredients. I wondered if this could impact the outcome, but the comment was dismissed at the time.

However, it seem relevant to me, because the origin of safrole has changed since the 90s/00s as well. The East Asian trees are significantly different than the North American trees. There is even variation in the tree leaves depending on the season they are harvested (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1934578X0800300529). There also may be variation in composition depending on the color of the stem (if Native American traditions are believed) (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/sassafras).


----------



## indigoaura

Another relevant article related to variations in safrole:



			Sci-Hub | Forensic profiling of sassafras oils based on comprehensive two-dimensional gas chromatography. Forensic Science International, 229(1-3), 108–115 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2013.03.046
		




> Safrole, the main compound in the essential oil of several plants of the Laurel family (Lauraceae), and its secondary product piperonylmethylketone are the predominantly used precursors for the illicit synthesis of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) which is, in turn, the most common active ingredient in Ecstasy tablets. Analytical methods with adequate capacity to identify links and origin of precursors, such as safrole, provide valuable information for drug-related police intelligence. Authentic sassafras oil samples from police seizures were subjected to comparative analysis based on their chemical profiles obtained by comprehensive two-dimensional gas chromatography time-of-flight mass spectrometry (GC  GC–TOFMS). The enhanced separation power and increased sensitivity of GC  GC allowed for the detection of minor compounds present in the essential oils which were of particular interest in case of very pure samples whose impurity profiles were not very pronounced. Discrimination of such samples was still possible even in the absence of characteristic main compounds.


----------



## cryptix420

Man, haters gonna hate I guess. Why all the skepticism? 

A close friend of mine is a biochemist, and knows the person performing the synthesis. This isn't some kid slinging molly. 

Regardless, I'll report back after trying - potentially on the Solstice.


----------



## G_Chem

While I agree the lower price you quoted is def too low for good quality (unless buying a half z to a z) I’d also say the higher price is too high.  (I saw before edit.)

That seems even higher when looking at supposed closeness to the source.. You’d think being two steps away from the chemist would get you a tad better prices but maybe I’m just lucky.  Or the chemist is a greedy turd..

Basically I’m calling BS, but that said I’m still interested to hear your results .

-GC


----------



## indigoaura

cryptix420 said:


> Man, haters gonna hate I guess. Why all the skepticism?
> 
> A close friend of mine is a biochemist, and knows the person performing the synthesis. This isn't some kid slinging molly.
> 
> Regardless, I'll report back after trying - potentially on the Solstice.


Very curious to know what your experience is.


----------



## cryptix420

Well, goodness, I'm in the midst of it right now...the keyboard is velvet. Yes?

Seriously though, this is some fire stuff.

@G_Chem - To be honest, the low end prices are something I quoting from Dream Market a while back.

And as for the expensive stuff being too expensive....I can say without hesitation that after trying it, I'd pay the extra for this sort of experience every time.

It's good to remember that simply knowing the person who makes your drugs won't necessarily make the starting materials any cheaper or less risky to purchase (sassafras root bark and safrole are monitored pretty tightly by the govt. (if I understand correctly).

We all like to be valued for our hard work, yes?


----------



## indigoaura

> And as for the expensive stuff being too expensive....I can say without hesitation that after trying it, I'd pay the extra for this sort of experience every time.



That's the thing, right there. I'm not the 18 year old making minimum wage anymore. I would gladly, gladly pay a premium for quality, reliable, product.


----------



## G_Chem

cryptix420 said:


> Well, goodness, I'm in the midst of it right now...the keyboard is velvet. Yes?
> 
> Seriously though, this is some fire stuff.
> 
> @G_Chem - To be honest, the low end prices are something I quoting from Dream Market a while back.
> 
> And as for the expensive stuff being too expensive....I can say without hesitation that after trying it, I'd pay the extra for this sort of experience every time.
> 
> It's good to remember that simply knowing the person who makes your drugs won't necessarily make the starting materials any cheaper or less risky to purchase (sassafras root bark and safrole are monitored pretty tightly by the govt. (if I understand correctly).
> 
> We all like to be valued for our hard work, yes?



Fair enough..  Yea everyone’s different and I could see a niche chemist charging that much if they feel their time, effort and product are worth it.

Safrole is def not easy to get these days, that’s for sure.  Especially for niche chemists just looking to make a bit for personal and friends.  Larger (but still small compared to the Dutch operations) manufacturers have an easier time as they can make connections with essential oil suppliers and divert some their way.  Not so easy for someone just looking to grab a liter here n there.

You may have said already, but what does the product look like? Can you get any details on the synthesis? (It’s ok to speak generally about routes so long as we don’t get specific enough for it to be any use to anyone reading.  Aka just the names of the routes.)

-GC


----------



## cryptix420

I'll have to get back to you on that, regarding synthesis. My friend wasn't aware I have a MG scale and so unfortunately she had already diluted it in water so I couldn't see what it looked like. Next time I'll make sure to get the raw crystals.


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

Its a fucking shame sass is not the main precoursor (sp?) anymore.

I def. notice a diff in MDMA from say 2012 and today. The new whatever ehyl/methyl-recipe has killed alot of what MDMA used to induce, atleast in my case.


----------



## Negi

pulverstaden said:


> The new whatever ehyl/methyl-recipe has killed alot of what MDMA used to induce, atleast in my case.


Could you be more specific about what has changed about the experience for you? Has it been consistent, or have you found some batches of MDMA that feel the same as the old stuff for you?


----------



## Negi

I would actually say that 2,3-MDMA is the possible cause we have the most evidence against. Remember I emailed the author of that paper (since he works at the Forensic Laboratory of the Dutch National Police as his day job). He was pretty direct about the fact that nobody had seen any 2,3-MDMA.



> Subject: RE: Regarding your research on the detection of positional isomers
> 
> Hello [Name],
> 
> Thank you for your e-mail.
> I am aware of the potential risk of forensic laboratories to encounter a novel, yet uncontrolled, positional isomer of MDMA and we've put additional QC checks in place to detect this and prevent a false positive identifications.
> However, from both my own experience and trend reports (e.g. UNODC, EMCDDA reports) and the NPS Early Warning website https://www.unodc.org/LSS/Home/NPS we don't have any signs that MDMA positional isomers actually do appear on the street markets in a vast amount.
> I know that 2,3-MDMA exists; but I've never encountered this in a case sample until now. I've studied this compound as this one might have near-similar MS fragmentation and pose a risk for a false positive. We've found that retention time and GC-MS match still can give a first clue and additional analysis by GC-VUV can clearly distinguish them (see paper enclosed). For other positional isomers with variations near the amine moiety we can expect major fragmentation differences in MS, thus they can clearly be differentiated.
> 
> So, no, I am not aware of MDMA positional isomers in street samples (at least not in The Netherlands). We do encounter designer drugs and mixtures thereof in a single sample, although these are mainly other groups of substances, such as the cathinones or fluorinated (meth)amphetamines.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Ruben



If you look at his published research, he has four papers about detecting drug isomers using different methods (he even uses 2,3-MDMA and 3,4-MDMA as a specific test case in two of them). I'm pretty sure he's doing a PhD thesis on the topic. If he is saying that the Dutch police lab is looking in the right places but has never seen any isomers, I'm willing to take that at face value.


----------



## G_Chem

mooka said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I've been researching quite a bit lately, read Pihkal and other documentation in search of clues, I am very confident that we can give an answer to this riddle that we've been dragging around for what? 3 years now?
> But first things first: I'd like to run over the various hypothesis that have been set out to cross the ones that, for one reason or another cannot be true.
> A scientific approach is the only way, we are way past hypothesis, we have all the data we need to cross what can and what can't be.
> 
> “*A molecule is a molecule is a molecule”
> 
> Regardless of the synthesis route the pharmacology of a chemical compound stays the same.*​
> What we know:
> 
> Different    synthesis methods are used now than were used in the past
> 
> Different    synthesis methods produce different synthesis byproducts
> 
> Some synthesis    byproducts are capable of altering monoamine transporter activity
> 
> Interference in    monoamine transporter activity can dampen the MDMA experience
> Any of these statements are in fact true, but no one can explain the differences between Magic & Meh for the following reasons:
> 
> Current and past    known methods all give proper product. These are all well known.
> 
> This is true    especially with older mass production routes (Leuckart), from mid    80's to early 2000's, we know that those byproducts would colour and  enhance certain aspects of the MDMA experience, whose who where    lucky enough to try both tablets in the club/rave scene and small  lab production from independent sources could tell the differences,  tablets where more stimulant while mdma is a more calm and intimate  experience.
> 
> True (?), but    there's no reports anywhere of such compounds, and those aren't    found by pill test services.
> 
> True (?),  #3    answer applies here as well.
> So the above statements doesn't solve the issue, *we can exclude those once for all*.
> That leave us with the following:
> 
> 
> *Isomers ratio*:    Extremely unlikely, an uneven D-L isomer ratio would mean either that labs are throwing away a big part of the production or that the synth route produces a preferred isomer, meaning that the synth becomes much more difficult and longer. A drug lab nightmare in fact.
> 
> *Dimers, trimers  etc*.: Any GC/MS would detect those.
> 
> *Polymorphism*:    Irrelevant, users haven't found any differences on ingesting solid/dissolved material from the same batch.
> 
> *Undetected    contaminants chemically similar to synthetic opioids like Fentanyl*:    Simply not possible,    opioids routes and precursors are completely different, also deadly drug overdoses from MDMA would become frequent and immediately reported on mainstream media (TV, Etc.).
> 
> *Undetected    (other not opioids) contaminants that would compete with MDMA at the    same receptors*: Two    different possibilities here, If the contaminant(s) are present in the microgram range being extremely potent to go undetected (see also #4) then few re-crystallizations would be enough to purify the product and obtain a pure, magic MDMA. If the contaminant instead is not potent enough to be active in the microgram range then would show as impurity in any standard GC/MS testing.
> 
> *Isobaries*:    *Here is where we need to look*.    I have a very good candidate for the Meh but I'll come back on this later.
> 
> *Back to PIHKAL: The 17 most significant, active chemicals*
> 
> 2C-B: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromophenethylamine, bromomescaline, CBr
> 2C-D: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-methylphenethylamine, LE-25
> 2C-T-2: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-ethylthiophenethylamine
> 2C-T-7: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-propylthiophenethylamine
> DOB: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromoamphetamine
> DOI: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-iodoamphetamine
> DOM: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-methyamphetamine, STP
> M: 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenthylamine, Mescaline
> MDA: 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine
> MDE: N-ethyl-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine
> MDMA: N-methyl-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine
> MDOH: N-hydroxy-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine
> MEM: 2,5-dimethoxy-4-ethoxyamphetamine
> Methyl-J: N-methyl-1-(1,3-benzodioxol-5-yl)-2-butanamine, MBDB, Eden
> MMDA: 3-methoxy-4,5-methylenedioxyamphetamine
> TMA: 3,4,5-trimethoxyamphetamine
> TMA-2: 2,4,5-trimethoxyamphetamine
> TMA-6: 2,4,6-trimethoxyamphetamine
> 
> Check the chemicals above, what do they have all in common? Yes, exactly, the position four.
> 
> “*The position 4 is where the magic happens” - Alexander Shulgin*
> 
> *I am firmly convinced that what is currently sold as 3,4-MDMA is actually 2,3-MDMA. *​
> 
> It test as MDMA in any home/street/festival substance test.​
> It test as MDMA in any substance testing organisation like drugsdata    etc.​
> It tests like MDMA in most forensic analysis, unless more accurate  testing are needed (and it is in any case enough to prosecute, no    one will try to check if is 2,3-M or 3,4-M, LEO is happy anyway, why    look further).​
> It is much more difficult to differentiate from its more active  isomer, you need specially sensitive instruments, not easily    available and again, you really need to look for it, so why bother    unless needed?​
> It slowly killed the last bit of counterculture, namely the Club/Rave/EDM Festivals, no more uncontrolled gatherings of young people. *Governments and LEO are very happy!*​
> You can say no 2,3 material has been found, Wrong! No one has  been looking for it. No one is searching for an answer, apart a bunch of junkies from a drug forum .​
> 
> *I bet that when 2,3-MDMA will be made illegal MDMA will virtually disappear until new routes/precursors will be found. This could be good because it will possibly make available tests to  distinguish the 2,3 from the 3,4. *
> 
> 
> 
> *Comparative potencies of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) analogues as inhibitors of [3H]noradrenaline and[3H]5-HT transport in mammalian cell lines*
> 
> British Journal of Pharmacology (2007) 152, 1121–1130; doi:10.1038/sj.bjp.0707473; published online 24 September 2007
> 
> *Background and purpose:*
> Illegal ‘ecstasy’ tablets frequently contain 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-like compounds of unknown pharmacological activity. Since monoamine transporters are one of the primary targets of MDMA action in the brain, a number of MDMA analogues have been tested for their ability to inhibit [3H]noradrenaline uptake into rat PC12 cells expressing the noradrenaline transporter (NET) and [3H]5-HT uptake into HEK293 cells stably transfected with the 5-HT transporter (SERT).
> 
> *Experimental approach:*
> Concentration–response curves for the following compounds at both NET and SERT were determined under saturating substrate conditions: 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyamphetamine (HMA), 4-hydroxy-3-methoxymethamphetamine (HMMA), 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-hydroxyamphetamine (MDOH), 2,5-dimethoxy-4-bromophenylethylamine (2CB), 3,4-dimethoxymethamphetamine (DMMA), 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-2-butanamine (BDB), 3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl-N-methyl-2-butanamine (MBDB) and 2,3-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (2,3-MDMA).
> 
> *Key results:*
> *2,3-MDMA was significantly less potent than MDMA at SERT, but equipotent with MDMA at NET. 2CB and BDB were both significantly less potent than MDMA at NET, but equipotent with MDMA at SERT. MBDB, DMMA, MDOH and the MDMA metabolites HMA and HMMA, were all significantly less potent than MDMA at both NET and SERT. (note: This explain a lot, why meh brings you nearly there.. but not where you want to be)*
> 
> *Conclusions and implications:*
> *This study provides an important insight into the structural requirements of MDMA analogue affinity at both NET and SERT*. It is anticipated that these results will facilitate understanding of the likely pharmacological actions of structural analogues of MDMA.
> 
> Personal note:* if ain't got position 4, it doesn't magic!
> 
> Mass-Spectrometry-Based Identification of Synthetic Drug Isomers Using Infrared Ion Spectroscopy
> Ruben F. Kranenburg,*,† Fred A. M. G. van Geenen,† Giel Berden, Jos Oomens, Jonathan Martens, and Arian C. van Asten
> Anal. Chem. 2020.92:7282-7288
> 
> ABSTRACT:
> Infrared ion spectroscopy (IRIS), a mass-spectrometry-based technique exploiting resonant infrared multiple photon dissociation (IRMPD), has been applied for the identification of novel psychoactive substances (NPS)*. *Identification of the precise isomeric forms of NPS is of significant forensic relevance since legal controls are dependent on even minor molecular differences such as a single ring-substituent position*.
> 
> Using three isomers of fluoroamphetamine and two ring-isomers of both MDA and MDMA, we demonstrate the ability of IRIS to distinguish closely related NPS. Computationally predicted infrared (IR) spectra are shown to correspond with experimental spectra and could explain the molecular origins of their distinctive IR absorption bands. IRIS was then used to investigate a confiscated street sample containing two unknown substances. One substance could easily be identified by comparison to the IR spectra of reference standards. For the other substance, however, this approach proved inconclusive due to incomplete mass spectral databases as well as a lack of available reference compounds, two common analytical limitations resulting from the rapid development of NPS. Most excitingly, the second unknown substance could nevertheless be identified by using computationally predicted IR spectra of several potential candidate structures instead of their experimental reference spectra.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Infrared Ion Spectroscopy. *
> IRIS measurements were performed using a modified Bruker (Bremen, Germany) AmaZon ion trap mass spectrometer. The modifications to the mass spectrometer and full details of the experimental setup are reported elsewhere.In short, two windows were placed above the ring electrode in the vacuum housing of the ion trap, and 3 mm holes were drilled in both the top and bottom of the ring electrode to guide the laser beam through the ion trap. Two mirror mounts were installed below the ring electrode to guide the laser beam out of the vacuum housing.
> The infrared laser light, generated by the FELIX free-electron laser,31,32 can interact with the trapped and mass-selected ion cloud inside the mass spectrometer to enable wave number specific IRMPD experiments. Extensive hardware and software modifications are further implemented to fully integrate the operation of the mass spectrometer with the wavelength tuning of the laser.
> 
> Note*: so ain't easy to differentiate isn't it?
> 
> MDMA-Type Isomer Differentiation with Infrared Ion Spectroscopy. **Another, different, class of isomeric compounds that have a bicyclic ring structure connected at different positions, the MDMA- and MDA-type drugs, were also investigated. *
> *The 3,4-isomers of both MDMA (known as “ecstasy”) and MDA are frequently occurring stimulants that are controlled substances in The Netherlands. However, their 2,3-isomers are both NPS that are not controlled and are nearly indistinguishable from their corresponding 3,4-isomers on the basis of GC-MS, being the method of choice in most forensic laboratories.*
> Using IRIS, however, clearly distinctive IR spectra for each isomer could be generated which enables simple identification of these NPS from their controlled counterparts, as presented in Figure 3 (see Figure S3 for a comparison to computationally predicted IR spectra).
> 
> 
> 
> ir.spectra.gif
> 
> *Distinguishing drug isomers in the forensic laboratory: GC–VUV in addition to GC–MS for orthogonal selectivity and the use of library match scores as a new source of information.*
> Ruben F. Kranenburga,b,*, Alan R. García-Cicourelb, Corina Kukurinb,
> Hans-Gerd Janssenb,c, Peter J. Schoenmakersb, Arian C. van Astenb.
> R.F. Kranenburg et al. / Forensic Science International 302 (2019) 109900
> 
> *A B S T R A C T*
> Currently, forensic drug experts are facing chemical identification challenges with the increasing number of new isomeric forms of psychoactive substances occurring in case samples. *Very similar mass spectra for these substances could easily result in misidentification using the regular GC–MS screening methods in combination with colorimetric testing in forensic laboratories*. Building on recent work from other groups, this study demonstrates that *GC–VUV is a powerful technique for drug isomer differentiation, showing reproducible and discriminating spectra for aromatic ring-isomers.* *MS and VUV show complementary selectivity as VUV spectra are ring-position specific whereas MS spectra are characteristic for the amine moieties of the molecule*. *VUV spectra are very reproducible showing less than 0.1m deviation in library match scores and therefore small spectral differences suffice to confidently distinguish isomers*. In comparison, MS match scores gave over 10m deviation and showed significant overlap in match score ranges for several isomers. *This poses a risk for false positive identifications when assigning compounds based on retention time and GC–MS mass spectrum*. A strategy was developed, based on Kernel Density Estimations of match scores, to construct Receiver Operating Characteristic (ROC) curves and estimate likelihood ratios (LR values) with respect to the chemical differentiation of drug related isomers. This approach, and the added value of GC–VUV is demonstrated with the chemical analysis of several samples from drug case work from the Amsterdam area involving both compounds listed in Dutch drug legislation (3,4-MDMA; 3,4-MDA; 4-MMC; 4-MEC and 4-FA) as well as their unlisted and thus uncontrolled isomers (2,3-MDMA; 2,3-MDA; 2- and 3-MMC; 2- and 3-MEC and 2- and 3-FA).
> 
> Few snippets from the above documentation, as you can see in this image the spectra for the various isomers is very similar, even with more accurate instrumentation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That brings to lots of false positives, namely 2,3 test as 3,4 and vice-versa, but when nearly all the substance is 2,3 and you don't have the right tools... you guess the answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More accurate results shows when matching with a correct reference spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *So it is quite clear that current forensic analysis is not able to recognize single ring-substituent position in everyday's activity.*
> 
> What to do next? Let's talk about it.
> 
> (edits: typos and extra notes)



I’m sorry but you’ve just started to skim the surface.  As @Negi said, GCMS can determine between the two so that wouldn’t be it.  There’s many other articles which state the opposite which have been posted before.

If you’d continue your research, such as digging through Hive posts, you’ll see your wrong in other areas of the post as well.

People have found a difference between polymorphs although some reading between the lines must be done since many back in the Hive days weren’t aware of them.  Go back through the first thread and you’ll find posts I’ve put up with quotes from many chemists speaking of differences in effects between recrystallization methods which can only be explained by polymorphism.

Even Strike claimed there was a difference in effects with certain re-X methods for MDMA.

A dimer is more likely to be missed by GCMS than 2,3.  Pretty sure we have articles up (in the last thread....) that show a dimer would be missed.

Also again if you search the Hive you’ll see posts even back then of people making product which is lackluster despite everything seeming to be done perfectly.  Certain routes give more consistently lackluster product, whereas others are more reliable.  This can’t be explained by 2,3-MDMA theory, and if you look at which routes more often give poor product at the Hive you’ll see those routes are the ones most often used today.  (All this info is again, in the last thread..)

I suggest people that want to come in hereclike they got the answer to re-read this whole thread cuz there’s more info in it than you could ever imagine..

If 2,3-MDMA is a problem it isn’t widespread, certainly not enough to be the culprit to this issue.

-GC


----------



## Negi

Might as well pull over some of the relevant data for the various theories we had found in the old thread. 

Regarding isomer ratios:





From someone's PHD thesis.
Batch five was seized in 2006, batch 45 in 2011.


----------



## foolsgold25

They changed the precursor from Safrole to PMK. I think this is the most likely reason for the mdma we have now. No pupil dilation, lack of that slow “coming up” feeling to then peaking and loving everyone around you. Overstimulation. Feeling of tiredness and wanting to sit down. All of these things didn’t happen to me prior to 2009 from my experience.

I am hoping there’s a chemist somewhere plotting the release of a load of old school pills into the clubs for after this corona shit is over haha


----------



## TripSitterNZ

PMK mdma was around in mass production since early 2000's. and its pretty funny since all the pmk mdma i have done from holland has always induced complete pupil dilation 30-45 min intense rush oneness and peace with the entire universe and unstoppable urge to tell everybody you love them and message every single one of your friends.

David nichols synthesies the pharma grade mdma for maps why has no one emailed him because he would laugh his ass off and tell them they fried there brains and become what is commonly known as E-tard.


----------



## indigoaura

@mooka 

Drugs Data bought samples of 2,3 MDMA and added it to their database based on emails that I sent them. They then ran all of their previously tested MDMA against the new data for 2,3 MDMA to see if it might be the culprit. It was not. This theory was specifically tested by Drugs Data and proven to be false. I will go back through my email and try to find what they said and quote it here.

Also, in your post, you copied one of my posts word for word, but you did not separate it out or indicate who the original writer was. My original post is here: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/non-euphoric-mdma.895810/post-15045452

I'm glad my summary was helpful to you in formulating your post, but, maybe give me cred for my summary? I know that prob seems egotistical, but it takes time and effort to write these long posts, and it bugs me to see my words (word for word) getting mixed up with someone else's commentary. In the academic world, we call that plagiarism. 

Also, I have it in writing from Energy Control that in order to detect synthesis byproducts they have to change the settings on their machine. They are not reporting synthesis byproducts in their lab results. So, you cannot say with certainty that synthesis byproducts are not being found by testing companies, because the testing companies are not trying to report them. Based on published research, every sample has synthesis byproducts present in some quantity, because that is how they can trace the product back to the original lab/manufacturer. This is reported extensively in police reports.


----------



## indigoaura

*Subject:*[DrugsData #198631]: DrugsData Contact: isobaric molecules and analytical complexities

​*Date:*Tuesday, 14 Jan 2020 10:38​*From:*​*To:*​
 
Greetings. We've made a tiny bit of progress.

Last week we got a certified standard for 2,3-MDMA. 2,3-MDMA has been run against all our previous MDMA identifications and does not match anything we've had submitted to us.


I just ordered the following and expect to run them next week:

1. N-methyl Homarylamine. Cayman 22239
2. Homarylamine. Cayman 21351
3. 2-MeOMC. Cayman 9001186
4. Methedrone. (4-MeOMC) Cayman 10529
5. 3-MeOMC. Cayman 9001187.
6. BDB Cayman 14213.

The rest of the list is not yet identified fully and they may or may not be available through any certified source. But we're working on it. I'll send you the "full list" and how we've identified each of them. Currently it's all just hand written squiggles on paper ;]

earth


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

Negi said:


> Could you be more specific about what has changed about the experience for you? Has it been consistent, or have you found some batches of MDMA that feel the same as the old stuff for you?


Yeah, of course.

It's consistently been more speedy, shorter duration, less "I-FUCKING-LOVE-THE-WORLD". The only stuff I've found that felt the same as "old-school" MDMA was a vendor actually selling off his last sass-batch.
People say a molecule is a molecule and no matter what stages of chemistry-sorcery brought is there and what precoursors are used, the  product remains the same. I'm not a chemist, but I've rolled more times than I can count and this new MDMA-formula is different.
I'm not the only one, everyone in my krew who drops MD has also noticed the diff the last few years.

I dropped 300mg yesterday. What. A. Fucking. Bummer.

And yes, I test my shit since I usually buy 15g+


----------



## Higherfocus420

it's probably you not the md it will never be like back in the day as high frequent doses cause down regulation of your receptors


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

Higherfocus420 said:


> it's probably you not the md it will never be like back in the day as high frequent doses cause down regulation of your receptors


I've certainly taken that into consideration, but seeing as I dose between 150-300mg with months inbetween AND have friends who dose 100-150mg, never more, saying the same thing, I don't think it's coincidence, but the chemistry.

But fuck do I know?
I might have fucked MDMA for myself, but I'm having a hard time dismissing how many people notice a diff.


----------



## indigoaura

Higherfocus420 said:


> it's probably you not the md it will never be like back in the day as high frequent doses cause down regulation of your receptors


 Please check out the first post and the summary of the original thread, thanks! This explanation does not fit for a variety of reasons.


----------



## indigoaura

pulverstaden said:


> I've certainly taken that into consideration, but seeing as I dose between 150-300mg with months inbetween AND have friends who dose 100-150mg, never more, saying the same thing, I don't think it's coincidence, but the chemistry.
> 
> But fuck do I know?
> I might have fucked MDMA for myself, but I'm having a hard time dismissing how many people notice a diff.



I am in the same boat as you. Everyone in my circle says the same thing. People new to MDMA are underwhelmed as well. I would be willing to write myself off as a tolerance case, but as I have said many times, if the issue was ME then I would see someone else rolling off this shit. There would be a party where everyone was rolling but me. Someone's eyes would dilate. Someone's jaw would be lopsided.  I have yet to see anyone "rolling balls" off the products I have had access to.


----------



## indigoaura

pulverstaden said:


> Yeah, of course.
> 
> It's consistently been more speedy, shorter duration, less "I-FUCKING-LOVE-THE-WORLD". The only stuff I've found that felt the same as "old-school" MDMA was a vendor actually selling off his last sass-batch.
> People say a molecule is a molecule and no matter what stages of chemistry-sorcery brought is there and what precoursors are used, the  product remains the same. I'm not a chemist, but I've rolled more times than I can count and this new MDMA-formula is different.
> I'm not the only one, everyone in my krew who drops MD has also noticed the diff the last few years.
> 
> I dropped 300mg yesterday. What. A. Fucking. Bummer.
> 
> And yes, I test my shit since I usually buy 15g+


Can you clarify what you mean when you say speedy? In the batches I get, there can be some intense jaw tremors that have a speedy quality, but the overall effect is more sedated, negative, and couch locked. Yes, it lacks the euphoria and empathy, (no loving the world), but there is not much energy to it.


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

indigoaura said:


> Can you clarify what you mean when you say speedy? In the batches I get, there can be some intense jaw tremors that have a speedy quality, but the overall effect is more sedated, negative, and couch locked. Yes, it lacks the euphoria and empathy, (no loving the world), but there is not much energy to it.


Well, you kind of nailed it. I feel speedy in my head, like I want to dance, talk and do shit, but the sedative side keeps me sitting.
Sorry for formulating that in a nonsensial way. 

And yeah, the euphoria, pfft - gone like a working girl when dough has been given.


----------



## Higherfocus420

indigoaura said:


> Can you clarify what you mean when you say speedy? In the batches I get, there can be some intense jaw tremors that have a speedy quality, but the overall effect is more sedated, negative, and couch locked. Yes, it lacks the euphoria and empathy, (no loving the world), but there is not much energy to it.





pulverstaden said:


> Well, you kind of nailed it. I feel speedy in my head, like I want to dance, talk and do shit, but the sedative side keeps me sitting.
> Sorry for formulating that in a nonsensial way.
> 
> And yeah, the euphoria, pfft - gone like a working girl when dough has been given.


maybe you lot are getting mdvp or mda there are literally so many different researach Chemicals nowadays but I never roll as hard nowadays due to abuse you will know mdma it has a foul bittersweet taste and is proper chill even a bit trippy despite being a stimulant


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

Higherfocus420 said:


> maybe you lot are getting mdvp or mda there are literally so many different researach Chemicals nowadays but I never roll as hard nowadays due to abuse you will know mdma it has a foul bittersweet taste and is proper chill even a bit trippy despite being a stimulant


I thought so aswell, but since buying reagents I'm pretty certain I get clean shit from the DN.
Anybody selling shit gets hung, drawn and quartered on the market-forum, and people to consistent lab-testing and post there.

But hey, you might be right.


----------



## Higherfocus420

pulverstaden said:


> I thought so aswell, but since buying reagents I'm pretty certain I get clean shit from the DN.
> Anybody selling shit gets hung, drawn and quartered on the market-forum, and people to consistent lab-testing and post there.
> 
> But hey, you might be right.


I'm not sure but I think thecprecursour they use might be different due to being illega and hard to obtain l I know that how pure it's made can affect the potency like even pure mdma can have impurities within the batch same with meth


----------



## psy997

TripSitterNZ said:


> David nichols synthesies the pharma grade mdma for maps why has no one emailed him because he would laugh his ass off and tell them they fried there brains and become what is commonly known as E-tard.



Your contributions to this thread are consistently poor, and somehow you manage to dip below your own standard.


----------



## Observer01

Can we think of any other compounds where different synthesis routes and/or precursors lead to a different end product quality?  I'm not even necessarily talking illegal drugs, could be anything, Tylenol, whatever. 

I just don't know enough about chemistry to make a judgement on the "if the end molecule = X, then it is all the same no matter how it was synthesized"  debate.


----------



## indigoaura

Higherfocus420 said:


> maybe you lot are getting mdvp or mda there are literally so many different researach Chemicals nowadays but I never roll as hard nowadays due to abuse you will know mdma it has a foul bittersweet taste and is proper chill even a bit trippy despite being a stimulant


 Product has been sent to multiple labs and the results are MDMA. Please read the first post and the summary post.


----------



## indigoaura

I think focusing on this "MDMA is MDMA" concept misses the whole point. Yes, MDMA is MDMA. 

What we think is going on is more likely that something that is not MDMA is being falsely identified as MDMA. Or, that a secondary compound is interfering with MDMA.

Even MAPS acknowledges that the slightest variation in manufacturing can impact the end product. Ambient temperature can change the end product, according to MAPS. It is not that far fetched of a concept that something is going wrong with the modern synths, or that the precursors are different in some way or contaminated and that impacts the synth in unexpected ways.


----------



## Observer01

> indigoaura said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think focusing on this "MDMA is MDMA" concept misses the whole point. Yes, MDMA is MDMA.
> 
> What we think is going on is more likely that something that is not MDMA is being falsely identified as MDMA. Or, that a secondary compound is interfering with MDMA.
> 
> Even MAPS acknowledges that the slightest variation in manufacturing can impact the end product. Ambient temperature can change the end product, according to MAPS. It is not that far fetched of a concept that something is going wrong with the modern synths, or that the precursors are different in some way or contaminated and that impacts the synth in unexpected ways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understood, and I'm not challenging that. But as far as your statement that "what we think is going on is more likely that something that is not MDMA is being falsely identified as MDMA", it seem's Negri's communications with the scientist in the Netherlands (which is a really solid connect), seems to think that if it was some type of analogue that they would catch it. And that 2-3 MDMA is not the culprit. So that leaves either the precursor, or contaminants as the only possible causes right?
Click to expand...


----------



## indigoaura

2,3 MDMA is not the only possible culprit. 

Someone more knowledgeable step in if I am wrong here, but my understanding is that in order for GCMS to identify compounds you have to have that particular compound entered in your system, and you have to be looking for it. Just because they are looking for 2,3 MDMA and that is not the culprit, that does not mean that they are looking for every other isobaric derivative. @Negi, was your contact implying that they would be able to identify every isobaric derivative or just 2,3 MDMA?

Based on what I have read, I personally think contaminants are more likely to be the issue, but I can't prove that without having a lab who is willing to take samples and run more a more complex analysis than just GCMS.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

you dont need it in your library a chemist just looks at the gc/ms graphs and can tell what the compound is.


----------



## Hylight

Yeah.


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> @Negi, was your contact implying that they would be able to identify every isobaric derivative or just 2,3 MDMA?


Here's the relevant part of his reply:



> I am aware of the potential risk of forensic laboratories to encounter a novel, yet uncontrolled, positional isomer of MDMA and we've put additional QC checks in place to detect this and prevent a false positive identifications.
> However, from both my own experience and trend reports (e.g. UNODC, EMCDDA reports) and the NPS Early Warning website https://www.unodc.org/LSS/Home/NPS we don't have any signs that MDMA positional isomers actually do appear on the street markets in a vast amount.
> I know that 2,3-MDMA exists; but I've never encountered this in a case sample until now. I've studied this compound as this one might have near-similar MS fragmentation and pose a risk for a false positive. We've found that retention time and GC-MS match still can give a first clue and additional analysis by GC-VUV can clearly distinguish them (see paper enclosed).


He is saying that they can detect something is off and do further investigations to identify it.

To quote from the paper he included:


> When dealing with new isomers for the first time, for which no reference spectra are available in the libraries, small but significant deviations from expected match scores and retention times could even serve as an alarm to trigger additional investigation into the composition of the sample using more elaborate techniques



Could they miss something? Sure, it's possible. But it's literally his job to find them and also he's doing research into multiple approaches to solving the issue.


----------



## indigoaura

Negi said:


> Here's the relevant part of his reply:
> 
> 
> He is saying that they can detect something is off and do further investigations to identify it.
> 
> To quote from the paper he included:
> 
> 
> Could they miss something? Sure, it's possible. But it's literally his job to find them and also he's doing research into multiple approaches to solving the issue.


 Were you able to follow up with him to ask about his perspective on active synthesis byproducts?


----------



## indigoaura

@TripSitterNZ You said, "you dont need it in your library a chemist just looks at the gc/ms graphs and can tell what the compound is" but this is the exact opposite of what Drugs Data told me. They were in the process of trying to obtain reference samples to check for the presence of various isobaric derivatives.


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

Higherfocus420 said:


> I'm not sure but I think thecprecursour they use might be different due to being illega and hard to obtain l I know that how pure it's made can affect the potency like even pure mdma can have impurities within the batch same with meth


Yeah, they've replaced (most) sassafras with PMK-something due to the tree or whatever containing sass is on the brink of extinction or some shit. 

It definately makes a difference. People can call me an idiot and a moron, but I'm certain that when you replace on precoursor with something completely diff, it _does_ indeed fuck-up the original effects of the molecule.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

pulverstaden said:


> Yeah, they've replaced (most) sassafras with PMK-something due to the tree or whatever containing sass is on the brink of extinction or some shit.
> 
> It definately makes a difference. People can call me an idiot and a moron, but I'm certain that when you replace on precoursor with something completely diff, it _does_ indeed fuck-up the original effects of the molecule.


most the sass trees were burnt down by the UN in south east asia but PMK was already in use as early as 2005 til pmk-glycidate came along around 2011. All saforole oil was made into pmk then mdma anyway whenever the Chinese did it or the producers did it made no difference. mdp2p oil or pmk is the intermediate. Chemisty is chemistry its the same dam thing been made even if you have 10 different routes.


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

Like I said, call me an idiot. I just know what I've experienced and what my friends have told me.
I'm no chemist, but isn't there a diff between PMK & PMK-glycidate?
You seem to have a handle on the process of manufacturing MDMA. 

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying that MDMA doesn't effect me the way it once did, even after several looooong breaks.
Maybe I've fucked my brain doing too much MDMA while younger, but I never noticed any impairment then.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

pulverstaden said:


> Like I said, call me an idiot. I just know what I've experienced and what my friends have told me.
> I'm no chemist, but isn't there a diff between PMK & PMK-glycidate?
> You seem to have a handle on the process of manufacturing MDMA.
> 
> I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying that MDMA doesn't effect me the way it once did, even after several looooong breaks.
> Maybe I've fucked my brain doing too much MDMA while younger, but I never noticed any impairment then.


the pmk gylicdate is just cleaved leaving pmk its just a techinal thing to get around the legal implications of importing it into holland but its illegal now anyway but the ports get paid off still. 

Synthesis can go wrong and you can you clearly see that in the product sold which ends up been total black toxic crystals shit must be less than 60% pure people will still take it idiot kids will still buy it on the web. I have done alot of mdma but also have done so many extreme dose psychedelic trips that rewire the brain everytime that it kept my neural pathways in a good state so maybe i can still feel all the mdma. There are 100% people out there who burn out their receptors with to much heavy use. Seems most complainers about meh stuff seem to be smack bang in the middle of america where the chances of acutal pure mdma that is acutally from the netherlands reaching them very slim. Now idk how these redneck sweet home albama chemists make their bath tub drugs and sell it off in those places i bet these so called mdma were probably made with safrole oils yet still don't give the people their effects.


The only way of solving this if A. A person like myself who claims to always feel the magic takes the same product with the people who claim it does nothing for them and must be wrong. If that product  gives me the magic then this entire issue is solved and thus people have 100% burnt their own brains out.


Now mdma is hitting a world wide shortage so even getting mdma is becoming more a mission and most likely shit loads of cathoines are about to take over the market.


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

TripSitterNZ said:


> the pmk gylicdate is just cleaved leaving pmk its just a techinal thing to get around the legal implications of importing it into holland but its illegal now anyway but the ports get paid off still.
> 
> Synthesis can go wrong and you can you clearly see that in the product sold which ends up been total black toxic crystals shit must be less than 60% pure people will still take it idiot kids will still buy it on the web.* I have done alot of mdma but also have done so many extreme dose psychedelic trips that rewire the brain everytime that it kept my neural pathways in a good state so maybe i can still feel all the mdma.* There are 100% people out there who burn out their receptors with to much heavy use. Seems most complainers about meh stuff seem to be smack bang in the middle of america where the chances of acutal pure mdma that is acutally from the netherlands reaching them very slim. Now idk how these redneck sweet home albama chemists make their bath tub drugs and sell it off in those places i bet these so called mdma were probably made with safrole oils yet still don't give the people their effects.
> 
> 
> The only way of solving this if A. A person like myself who claims to always feel the magic takes the same product with the people who claim it does nothing for them and must be wrong. If that product  gives me the magic then this entire issue is solved and thus people have 100% burnt their own brains out.
> 
> 
> Now mdma is hitting a world wide shortage so even getting mdma is becoming more a mission and most likely shit loads of cathoines are about to take over the market.



Allright, thanks for schooling me. Always appreciated to learn something new.

I've done many extremely dosed psychedelic trips aswell, and still feel both LSD, shrooms and 2C-B like I used to.
From what I've read psychedelics does indeed promote structural and functional neural plasticity, but I don't think that has anything to do with it. 
Drawing from your conclusion, I should still feel MDMA like I used to. 
My friend who's had about 5 rolls in over 7 years should still feel the magic, ain't nothing burnt with his brain.

I think your way of "solving this" is both a bit condescending and bordering on hubris; you don't seem to hear to many THOUSANDS of people all across reddit, drugs-forum, here and several other platforms who claim the same thing that I do. 
I use reagents and never drop shit that's not tested. I just don't see it as a coincidence that the ban of safrole and the new shitty MDMA hit the market to close together. 

I'm not from the states, but scandinavia. I get my stash from either DNM where people post lab-results and those selling fake shit gets tossed out on their asses quicker than you can say 'sass', or by simply going (pre-covid) to the Netherlands.

I'm glad MDMA is still the same for you, but take into consideration that effects are individual. 
And yes, the magic might be gone for me, but it feels unlikely - I've seen friends do MDMA twice a week for months and then being wrecked, completely trashed; I'm not there, nor anywhere near. 

Thanks for clearing out the PMK-terms; other than that, I don't think we'll reach much further in this discussion. 
Take care man, I wish you all the best!


----------



## Negi

pulverstaden said:


> you don't seem to hear to many THOUSANDS of people all across reddit, drugs-forum, here and several other platforms who claim the same thing that I do.


Are there thousands though? This was a point of contention I've brought up a few times in this thread. The majority of current experience reports don't match the effects people point to for mehDMA. This is especially true if you focus on first time reports, to rule out any possibility of tolerance.


----------



## tubgirl.jpg

Negi said:


> Are there thousands though? This was a point of contention I've brought up a few times in this thread. The majority of current experience reports don't match the effects people point to for mehDMA. This is especially true if you focus on first time reports, to rule out any possibility of tolerance.


I honestly have no clue. I pulled the number out of my ass. But I hang at drug-forums such as BL, D-F, reddit subs, swedish drug-forums, norwegian drug-forums, darknet-forums - I've found the same complaint on every platform. 

But, like I said, I maybe totally off on this one. Me and my friends and those I've talked to. Most are not first-timers, but most are not abusive either (at least my friends, even though I've been).

It's a shame, though, if I have fucked my synapses and all that. 
But hey, those times were awesome, I can still spell my own name and don't suffer any physcial or mental impairment from my MDMdays.
So, a shame, but nothing I'll mourn.


----------



## ibtisam midlet

It's possible that our genetic has changed lead to inability for MDMA to interact with its receptors , if your dad was high user of mdmd in past and developed a Mutation you will get his DNA which will make you unable to feel MDMA even if you did not took it before , MDMA is neurotoxic this encourage the body to make a Mutation that will stop MDMA effect in even in later generations.
This my opinion *-*


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

This is what's missing from MehDMA.







Man, those little green mints...


----------



## AutoTripper

indigoaura said:


> Got back the results for my recent sample (not consumed yet).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #9535 - MDMA, 9535
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pleased to see that I have submitted a sample that comes back as just MDMA. Not MDMA + MDA, or MDMA + some weird byproduct. Of course, I don't know what the percentage of purity is, but at least there are not some weird remnants of the synth process that are showing up in the sample. Guessing the Simon's reaction must just be due to my Simon's test getting old.
> 
> Also, this submission has made me realize something potentially significant.
> 
> They say that I sent 20 mg, but I weighed this before I sent it and my scale said it was about 60 mg.
> 
> Could my issue be that I have a bad scale? Seriously. If my scale is weighing out mg significantly "off," then that would explain A LOT. Have we even discussed this here?


Maybe they made no attempt to scrape put the remaining 40 mg imevitably stuck to the inside of the bag?

Is so, a degree of lack of care and thorough procedure indicated there IMO.

Still, I guess it makes no difference, as long as they had enough to work with for a reliable result.


----------



## foolsgold25

I would bet my house on it being the sassafras / saffrole change, I live in Manchester & up until that point we had good e’s on tap. They literally dried up within the space of a few months, massive drought & then nothing to that level since: I go to Amsterdam regularly and it’s exactly the same problem there. All pills are now 250mg + to make up for how shit the product is. Every pill I had up until 2009 was always dose around 100-130mg- No need for weird shapes or gimmicks to sell these things. I don’t take e’s anymore but I’m waiting patiently for the return of those beautiful little fuckers. The last time I came up properly was Nintendo’s / Mario’s / UFOs in 2015 - must of got hold of a bit of safrole oil eh





						Pill Reports - Ecstasy Test Results Database by Enlighten
					






					www.pillreports.net


----------



## AutoTripper

ibtisam midlet said:


> It's possible that our genetic has changed lead to inability for MDMA to interact with its receptors , if your dad was high user of mdmd in past and developed a Mutation you will get his DNA which will make you unable to feel MDMA even if you did not took it before , MDMA is neurotoxic this encourage the body to make a Mutation that will stop MDMA effect in even in later generations.
> This my opinion *-*


I would be open to such a consideration, theoretically.

However this just doesn't "sit" with me as a satisfactory explanation.

If no known or observed, reported, genuine changes had not been made to how MDMA is produced since 2005 at least, but the facts are MDMA production has changed fairly radically actually, since that time, the end of the Golden era.


----------



## AutoTripper

foolsgold25 said:


> I would bet my house on it being the sassafras / saffrole change, I live in Manchester & up until that point we had good e’s on tap. They literally dried up within the space of a few months, massive drought & then nothing to that level since: I go to Amsterdam regularly and it’s exactly the same problem there. All pills are now 250mg + to make up for how shit the product is. Every pill I had up until 2009 was always dose around 100-130mg- No need for weird shapes or gimmicks to sell these things. I don’t take e’s anymore but I’m waiting patiently for the return of those beautiful little fuckers. The last time I came up properly was Nintendo’s / Mario’s / UFOs in 2015 - must of got hold of a bit of safrole oil eh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pill Reports - Ecstasy Test Results Database by Enlighten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pillreports.net


Yes the OG white doves, Dolphins, Elephants etc of the early to mid nineties and just beyond, 120-130 mg was a pretty damn special pill and experience.

No complaints or disappointment, cries for a higher dose.

3 125 mg pills, over a night, was a real feast.

This is certainly an indicator not to be dismissed IMO.


----------



## indigoaura

pulverstaden said:


> I honestly have no clue. I pulled the number out of my ass. But I hang at drug-forums such as BL, D-F, reddit subs, swedish drug-forums, norwegian drug-forums, darknet-forums - I've found the same complaint on every platform.
> 
> But, like I said, I maybe totally off on this one. Me and my friends and those I've talked to. Most are not first-timers, but most are not abusive either (at least my friends, even though I've been).
> 
> It's a shame, though, if I have fucked my synapses and all that.
> But hey, those times were awesome, I can still spell my own name and don't suffer any physcial or mental impairment from my MDMdays.
> So, a shame, but nothing I'll mourn.



The complaints are all over the internet. You even see people commenting in threads that are unrelated to MDMA. I have seen the issue pop up on music forums etc. It is widely discussed by everyone in my social circle who tried E before and after. People who I have introduced to E in recent years shrugged their shoulders and were not motivated to try it again. People who are not in my social circle have brought the issue up to me as well.

In the original thread we had multiple people who were in the EDM scene who commented on the vast change in attendees and the change in vibe. @Biscuit and @epic11 both come to mind here.

There is a lot of gaslighting that goes on in this thread, unfortunately. The whole discussion would be healthier and more productive if we would stop trying to convince people that their observations and experiences are false.


----------



## Negi

I feel like we are just relitigating the past hundred pages of the old thread in a much more compact form, but I guess this makes it easier for new users to catch up.



indigoaura said:


> It is widely discussed by everyone in my social circle who tried E before and after.


This is what I was trying to get around by focusing on new user reports. The view that MDMA is mediocre or even bad these days is heavily concentrated in longterm users (in terms of how long since their first MDMA usage) who are comparing it to experiences often years in the past. While some like those in the thread have found batches that seem to buck the trend, others haven't (or don't report it) making it hard to rule out tolerance or rose tinted glasses for many of the reports.



indigoaura said:


> People who I have introduced to E in recent years shrugged their shoulders and were not motivated to try it again.


This is much more of an indicator that something is up. But it's not a common view. Most first time experience reports are glowing, with people reporting that they can't wait to try it again. And it's not like people wouldn't post underwhelming experiences, it's a meme at this point that people are constantly making "I tried cocaine and don't see the hype" posts on Reddit. You don't see that for MDMA.



indigoaura said:


> In the original thread we had multiple people who were in the EDM scene who commented on the vast change in attendees and the change in vibe. @Biscuit and @epic11 both come to mind here.


I thought we had covered that in the old thread. EDM is mainstream now, the majority of attendees at a festival or large event are going to getting drunk, not taking MDMA.






source

I'm not trying to say that your experiences haven't happened, but I don't see the evidence that they have been caused by a change that has impacted the majority of the worlds MDMA supply.


----------



## indigoaura

I have never said that I thought anything has impacted the majority of the world's MDMA supply. I personally think there are "pockets" or regions that are experiencing this issue more than others. I could not begin to speak to the world's supply, as I have no experience in other regions and would not begin to make a claim about regions I am not familiar with. 

The only people who are going to notice a difference in MDMA from a decade ago and MDMA today are people who were using MDMA a decade ago. A new user who only tried Meh product would not understand or know what it was supposed to be like. So, there is a bit of a logical conundrum here. 

If I comment that Austin, TX used to have a better vibe in 2000, and someone else says, "Nah, Austin is great in 2020!" but that person never visited Austin till 2018, then there is no way they can comment on the issue. They don't know or understand what the vibe used to be like.

If you did a blind taste test, and you gave everyone Coke, except for a small handful of people who got Dr. Pepper, and then you switched out the Dr. Pepper for Coke, guess what? The only people asking "What happened to what I was drinking before?" are the people who tasted the Dr. Pepper. The people who had Coke the whole time would not have experienced any change. 

You would have to find new users who were getting quality MDMA and then the supply changed (and we have had several people like that comment within the thread). But overall, I think new users are either connected to quality product and they don't have an issue at all, or they are connected to meh product and don't realize there is an issue because they have not tried quality product.



> Most first time experience reports are glowing, with people reporting that they can't wait to try it again.


Yes, I agree. I know what first time MDMA users should be like. Any time we used to get a newbie at a party it was like a present for everyone. I was that person at the party who brought the stuffed animals, play-doh, glow sticks, Slinkys and other ridiculous stuff to show the newbies a good time. They were overjoyed, baptized, enlightened, unencumbered. It was a semi religious awakening. I have watched that transformation time and time again.

So, please, believe me when I tell you as an objective observer that something is not right. No one is awakening to anything on this subpar product. I literally had one new user say, "Eh, its ok." I watched another girl push her boyfriend away and tell him to not touch her. I never saw anything like that with new users before. Never.

Even if my brain is burned out and I will never experience MDMA again, I should still be able to watch others experience that joy for the first time. Nothing is wrong with my powers of observation.


----------



## sassyfrass

Just had some genuine crystal clear MDA
and it was like the first time on MDMA, no iris insight, Completely magic.

apparently closer to the "golden era" people were adulterating their MDMA with Sass because they knew it was more potent and easier to make.

"MDA is rarely sought after as a recreational drug compared to other drugs in the amphetamine family; however, it remains an important and widely used drug due to it being a primary metabolite,[1] the product of hepatic N-dealkylation,[2] of MDMA (ecstasy), In addition, it is common to find MDA as an adulterant of illicitly produced MDMA.[3][4]" WIkipedia MDA

and perhaps different isomers pack more of a punch


"The (_S_)-optical isomer of MDA is more potent than the (_R_)-optical isomer as a psychostimulant, possessing greater affinity for the three monoamine transporters. " WIkipedia MDA


----------



## finitelifeform

I think it's simply a changing of the guard.
You get gifted opportunities to experience, exploit, benefit from etc certain nuances in the particular moment in time. I think it's a sort of 'you have to be there to understand' thing. 
What you know from your past is based on your generation, something which doesn't last despite you perhaps believing how things were for you is how it was, and always will be, for everyone else.

And with drugs, I think it's about the sub-cultures that are connected to the use of those drugs. That's where you find the time limited window into specific social and cultural paradigms that define that particular sub-culture. Of those paradigms might be social norms and values that emphasise certain shared cultural beliefs etc. When you look at the dance scene during the eighties and nineties, you can see that sub-cultures had a huge part to play in the exposure to the wider world of certain cultural beliefs and values that then rippled through society and along with those rippled provided the conduit for others to partake in similiar involvement, of which might have been the exposure to really good MDMA as a byproduct of being connected to those sub-cultures. That's why many people got wind of there being good MDMA around those times, because the influence from those sub-cultures was hard to ignore. It was effectively what the rave scene, hard dance, techno scenes etc were all about. You couldn't really put the eighties/nineties, hard dance and MDMA apart from one another. This is very much a cultural thing and along with it were the nuanced cultural values attached. And that often was having a really good time, which involved really good MDMA. 

In past generations, you had more access to sub-cultures because the world was more divided, at least in the sense that localized cultural identity existed. There was a lot less pressures on local culture because the world was a lot smaller. There was more depth to local culture which allowed for sub-cultures to flourish because the overarching culture was isolated from the rest of the world, therefore more likely to be preserved. Today we have social media and the homogenization of culture until we are all effectively one big gloop, instead of pockets of islands with our own ways of life. And it's in these pockets of islands where certain nuances can be found, certain time limited windows into a particular way of life and along with it, particular perks of being there at that time. When one mainstream culture dominates all, the rest are left straggling under the pressure to conform to the overarching norms and values. 

Naturally time moves on and due to rapidly changing world and the way in which we live our lives socially, what was once the norm and essential to way of life, is now secondary and obsolete and fading into history. I can definetly see that over the last few decades there has been a huge change in the quality of drugs available and I think it's heavily linked to the changing of culture and how people perceive what is important about them. It's more about quantity than quality. It's more about the superficial process of consuming them, as apposed to their usage having beneficial and meaningful purposes ie used in connection to a particular setting, for a specific purpose, with particular values and beliefs attached etc. 

For good drugs to be central to peoples lives, people have to first believe that is important and secondly have been fortunate enough to have experienced both good drugs and a sense of identity to a particular set of cultural beliefs that puts the importance of this as a top priority. Today people would rather score impure, perhaps even bunk, MDMA because culturally they have no sense of direction when it comes to identifying with what they are doing, no rituals, no community, no wisdom nor advice garnered from past generations, no connection to a particular shared reality that considers this important.


----------



## psy997

finitelifeform said:


> It's more about the superficial process of consuming them, as apposed to their usage having beneficial and meaningful purposes ie used in connection to a particular setting, for a specific purpose, with particular values and beliefs attached etc.





finitelifeform said:


> For good drugs to be central to peoples lives, people have to first believe that is important and secondly have been fortunate enough to have experienced both good drugs and a sense of identity to a particular set of cultural beliefs that puts the importance of this as a top priority.





finitelifeform said:


> Today people would rather score impure, perhaps even bunk, MDMA because culturally they have no sense of direction when it comes to identifying with what they are doing, no rituals, no community, no wisdom nor advice garnered from past generations, no connection to a particular shared reality that considers this important.



Good points, and great post, finitelifeform. The third gets a bit assumptive, though not enough to ruin it for me. Either way, thank you for posting here and putting words to what I've felt and mulled over, but not been able to put into language, before.


----------



## Negi

I'm not sure what your conclusion is there. Are you saying that the change in perceived MDMA effects is due to different usage patterns (and set and settings?), or due to a physical aspect of the MDMA?


----------



## psy997

Negi said:


> I'm not sure what your conclusion is there. Are you saying that the change in perceived MDMA effects is due to different usage patterns (and set and settings?), or due to a physical aspect of the MDMA?



They seem to be saying that the quality of MDMA is no longer as good. Most of the post is reasoning as to why that may be able to occur with so little fanfare, however.


----------



## finitelifeform

psy997 said:


> Good points, and great post, finitelifeform. The third gets a bit assumptive, though not enough to ruin it for me. Either way, thank you for posting here and putting words to what I've felt and mulled over, but not been able to put into language, before.


Thanks  From my experience, albeit biased, more and more people settle for less when it comes to quality of drugs. And more and more people seem to be settling for untrusted sources and risks based on getting hold of what they need. The search for drugs has broadened and along with it more risks, more contact with less pure drugs, less personal connections to those involved etc. The prices are also increasing which puts pressure on both sides, especially the smaller suppliers. It's the smaller supplies who usually provide these niche pockets of people with the good stuff. When they get pushed out, when the heat gets too high, or when the social network crumbles - the whole deck of cards comes down. And I've noticed the niche cultures that once thrived now don't so much and people have become more mainstream in regards to their identities, along with that the connections people have, their localized cultures and sub-cultures and the overall environment fades away and is no longer necessary. This is represented in society as a whole when collectively people are slowly losing their own sense of localized cultural identity to the dominant homogenous mainstream culture that puts everybody in the same bracket, and therefore at the same time eradicates cultural differences, nuances and identity that once thrived in more isolated pockets of localized culture.

When theres a gap in the market, this leaves the street corner dealers and the ones who come in to capitalize on pure profit over providing a quality service to their customers. They don't care about making friends and sharing in collective shared realities, their motive is only the money. And it all makes sense because during the last decade or so there there have been many economic, social, political factors involved that has contributed to the stage being set for people taking their personal choices like drug/abuse to new places and doing things differently. A case in point is the dawn of dark net markets. When only a few decades ago (perhaps not even that) you could get everything you needed based on the network you had around you and the resources available at that time, today people rely more and more on significantly more detachment from the whole process to the degree that people are ordering drugs from several hundred, maybe even thousand, miles away. Take it back not that long ago and you could have got what you ordered off the dark net in your local area.



Negi said:


> I'm not sure what your conclusion is there. Are you saying that the change in perceived MDMA effects is due to different usage patterns (and set and settings?), or due to a physical aspect of the MDMA?


Are you referring to my posts? 
If you are I'm saying basically that the change in culture and how people live their lives has contributed to the change in the availability of MDMA. It's culture that has a signficant impact on how people live their lives and when those cultures are not as water tight and pervasive, the relationships based in those cultures diminish. Of those relationships, say if you were part of a sub-culture/group that promoted the use of good quality MDMA for connecting with others and having amazing experiences, you no longer have access to what you benefited from before as a byproduct of being involved and connected to the sub-culture and the relationships therein. If you're friends with a big group of people and they all come with their perks of knowing people, having access to certain resources, know certain stuff etc when those relationships fail, or the overarching environment fades away, so does the benefits that came with those relationships.


----------



## G_Chem

TripSitterNZ said:


> you dont need it in your library a chemist just looks at the gc/ms graphs and can tell what the compound is.



A competent chemist..

Unfortunately my trust in people’s competency is at an all time low.  Also if the graphs were close enough it could be written off.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Are there thousands though? This was a point of contention I've brought up a few times in this thread. The majority of current experience reports don't match the effects people point to for mehDMA. This is especially true if you focus on first time reports, to rule out any possibility of tolerance.



Thing is though, MDMA used to work long past first usage.  Nowadays it seems everyone looses the magic after 3 tries, which just ain’t right.

Also reddit regularly has posts with people asking why it’s changed and many posters agreeing.  Definitely not 1000’s but enough.


@TripSitterNZ i respectfully disagree on many fronts.

First off our domestic production isn’t the problem and in fact when we do have domestic it’s usually the best there’s is..  It’s just rare these days, and many dealers will happily sell RC’s instead.

This argument also doesn’t work when much of the product is being tested with reagents and via lab.

Next while yes glycidate has been used since probably the early 00’s, there is most definitely variations in product via route.  Many Hive chemists speak of this.

Also I will nitpick further and say not ALL product has to go through the PMK intermediate.  Bromosafrole was used at least some of the time early on in the illlict MDMA trade but quickly faded out as better techniques came forward.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

ibtisam midlet said:


> It's possible that our genetic has changed lead to inability for MDMA to interact with its receptors , if your dad was high user of mdmd in past and developed a Mutation you will get his DNA which will make you unable to feel MDMA even if you did not took it before , MDMA is neurotoxic this encourage the body to make a Mutation that will stop MDMA effect in even in later generations.
> This my opinion *-*



This is honestly the only idea I will entertain beyond synthesis changes.  We as a people are constantly changing, we even look different than we did 100yrs ago.  It’s possible due to poor diet, environmental pollution, lack of exercise, etc, that something has caused this to happen.

For me personally, I don’t believe I’d still roll good if I hadn’t kept up heavily on health habits. I always told people my reasoning for being so healthy was so that I could still get fucked up on occasion and not feel bad about it.

I’ve watched countless people come and go with MDMA, but I’ve remained a constant.  I can only attribute that to healthy living and proper use of MDMA.

But yea good point that we should entertain.

-GC


----------



## G_Chem

foolsgold25 said:


> I would bet my house on it being the sassafras / saffrole change, I live in Manchester & up until that point we had good e’s on tap. They literally dried up within the space of a few months, massive drought & then nothing to that level since: I go to Amsterdam regularly and it’s exactly the same problem there. All pills are now 250mg + to make up for how shit the product is. Every pill I had up until 2009 was always dose around 100-130mg- No need for weird shapes or gimmicks to sell these things. I don’t take e’s anymore but I’m waiting patiently for the return of those beautiful little fuckers. The last time I came up properly was Nintendo’s / Mario’s / UFOs in 2015 - must of got hold of a bit of safrole oil eh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pill Reports - Ecstasy Test Results Database by Enlighten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pillreports.net



I remember weren’t those Mario’s and ufos supposed to be a domestic safrole press?

Appreciate you sharing your story 

-GC


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

finitelifeform said:


> I think it's simply a changing of the guard.
> You get gifted opportunities to experience, exploit, benefit from etc certain nuances in the particular moment in time. I think it's a sort of 'you have to be there to understand' thing.
> What you know from your past is based on your generation, something which doesn't last despite you perhaps believing how things were for you is how it was, and always will be, for everyone else.
> 
> And with drugs, I think it's about the sub-cultures that are connected to the use of those drugs. That's where you find the time limited window into specific social and cultural paradigms that define that particular sub-culture. Of those paradigms might be social norms and values that emphasise certain shared cultural beliefs etc. When you look at the dance scene during the eighties and nineties, you can see that sub-cultures had a huge part to play in the exposure to the wider world of certain cultural beliefs and values that then rippled through society and along with those rippled provided the conduit for others to partake in similiar involvement, of which might have been the exposure to really good MDMA as a byproduct of being connected to those sub-cultures. That's why many people got wind of there being good MDMA around those times, because the influence from those sub-cultures was hard to ignore. It was effectively what the rave scene, hard dance, techno scenes etc were all about. You couldn't really put the eighties/nineties, hard dance and MDMA apart from one another. This is very much a cultural thing and along with it were the nuanced cultural values attached. And that often was having a really good time, which involved really good MDMA.
> 
> In past generations, you had more access to sub-cultures because the world was more divided, at least in the sense that localized cultural identity existed. There was a lot less pressures on local culture because the world was a lot smaller. There was more depth to local culture which allowed for sub-cultures to flourish because the overarching culture was isolated from the rest of the world, therefore more likely to be preserved. Today we have social media and the homogenization of culture until we are all effectively one big gloop, instead of pockets of islands with our own ways of life. And it's in these pockets of islands where certain nuances can be found, certain time limited windows into a particular way of life and along with it, particular perks of being there at that time. When one mainstream culture dominates all, the rest are left straggling under the pressure to conform to the overarching norms and values.
> 
> Naturally time moves on and due to rapidly changing world and the way in which we live our lives socially, what was once the norm and essential to way of life, is now secondary and obsolete and fading into history. I can definetly see that over the last few decades there has been a huge change in the quality of drugs available and I think it's heavily linked to the changing of culture and how people perceive what is important about them. It's more about quantity than quality. It's more about the superficial process of consuming them, as apposed to their usage having beneficial and meaningful purposes ie used in connection to a particular setting, for a specific purpose, with particular values and beliefs attached etc.
> 
> For good drugs to be central to peoples lives, people have to first believe that is important and secondly have been fortunate enough to have experienced both good drugs and a sense of identity to a particular set of cultural beliefs that puts the importance of this as a top priority. Today people would rather score impure, perhaps even bunk, MDMA because culturally they have no sense of direction when it comes to identifying with what they are doing, no rituals, no community, no wisdom nor advice garnered from past generations, no connection to a particular shared reality that considers this important.



That's a good post with many valid points. Its analogous to the LSD explosion of the 60s.. Although LSD had been bubbling around in the underground since its discovery, when it became mainstream it created a revolution and a whole counterculture. 

Eventually, LSD just became another drug and the mythology around it dissipated. 

But how many times have you heard old hippies saying the acid was better in the 60s?


However, I was never caught up in the Ecstasy scene. When I finally caught on to the drug in the mid 90s, it was usually in small social situations with a few friends, or on my own at home.

So for me, the set and setting has been pretty consistent, but the drugs have gone to shit...


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> I feel like we are just relitigating the past hundred pages of the old thread in a much more compact form, but I guess this makes it easier for new users to catch up.
> 
> 
> This is what I was trying to get around by focusing on new user reports. The view that MDMA is mediocre or even bad these days is heavily concentrated in longterm users (in terms of how long since their first MDMA usage) who are comparing it to experiences often years in the past. While some like those in the thread have found batches that seem to buck the trend, others haven't (or don't report it) making it hard to rule out tolerance or rose tinted glasses for many of the reports.
> 
> 
> This is much more of an indicator that something is up. But it's not a common view. Most first time experience reports are glowing, with people reporting that they can't wait to try it again. And it's not like people wouldn't post underwhelming experiences, it's a meme at this point that people are constantly making "I tried cocaine and don't see the hype" posts on Reddit. You don't see that for MDMA.
> 
> 
> I thought we had covered that in the old thread. EDM is mainstream now, the majority of attendees at a festival or large event are going to getting drunk, not taking MDMA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> source
> 
> I'm not trying to say that your experiences haven't happened, but I don't see the evidence that they have been caused by a change that has impacted the majority of the worlds MDMA supply.



Ok most first time reports you see are glowing simply because no ones is going to post about the first dud experience they had. Glowing reports get put up most often cuz people feel amazing and want to tell the world.

-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> That's a good post with many valid points. Its analogous to the LSD explosion of the 60s.. Although LSD had been bubbling around in the underground since its discovery, when it became mainstream it created a revolution and a whole counterculture.
> 
> Eventually, LSD just became another drug and the mythology around it dissipated.
> 
> But how many times have you heard old hippies saying the acid was better in the 60s?
> 
> 
> However, I was never caught up in the Ecstasy scene. When I finally caught on to the drug in the mid 90s, it was usually in small social situations with a few friends, or on my own at home.
> 
> So for me, the set and setting has been pretty consistent, but the drugs have gone to shit...


well acid was at a level in the 1960's never seen again with the dosage and the purity mark aswell with nick sands. The DEA was dumb founded how they got there product so precise and pure. Same goes for mdma these days so many black rock brown rock impure stuff around that doesn't even reach 70-80% purity on the global market while the really pure 90% + mdma is usually kept to the dutch scene or you have to really do some digging to find suppliers. The MDMA earlier in the year here was testing at 92% complete pure white crystals and powders. 

The mdma which is been pressed into pills i recently found out is mostly that fucking black rock shit on a mass scale overcooked maybe like 50% purity. So if you are taking 50% pure mdma at 100 mg thats only like 50 mg of acutal product no wonder why the pills where been dosed up to 300 mg if its 50% purity. Now that other 50% of random shit probably just takes up all the space in your brain for the real mdma to bond to the receptors. MDMA holds a important place for the world just like the LSD of the 60's. Youth need it more than ever to feel some emphatic connection. 

My issue with things is people claiming only safrole makes "magic mdma" when its not its about competent cooks making high purity drugs to get the desired effect of said drug. Thats like doing 15% cocaine and claiming all cocaine in the world including the cartel bricks are all bad. When in fact it was the dodgy street dealer who cut the drug with all manners of shit. Now we live in 2021 if people just turned their brain on and did some research on how to get good quality drugs instead of just getting themselves ripped off they wouldn't have to complain.


----------



## G_Chem

Here’s an example of just how inaccurate these GCMS tests really are...

A recent lab test of LSD dropped onto a Tums.  Notice how they say they can’t definitively say if LSD is there or not because the Tums peaks overlap with LSD.  TUMS!!

It’s my belief things can hide easier than we realize in those graphs, and if a simple calcium carbonate Tums can block the LSD peaks on a test truly makes you wonder what else is getting missed.









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #9567 - LSD on Tums, 9567
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				




-GC


----------



## TripSitterNZ

G_Chem said:


> Here’s an example of just how inaccurate these GCMS tests really are...
> 
> A recent lab test of LSD dropped onto a Tums.  Notice how they say they can’t definitively say if LSD is there or not because the Tums peaks overlap with LSD.  TUMS!!
> 
> It’s my belief things can hide easier than we realize in those graphs, and if a simple calcium carbonate Tums can block the LSD peaks on a test truly makes you wonder what else is getting missed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #9567 - LSD on Tums, 9567
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -GC


GCMS is only ever as good as the chemist and their method. Somethings can be really tough coming up with a extraction method to try isolate the thing you are trying to analyze from all the other things in the sample. Different industries have varying qualities of their gc/ms machines aswell. But there is alot of incompetent chemists around have worked with many retards that you wonder if they just bought a fake degree from india.


----------



## finitelifeform

G_Chem said:


> Here’s an example of just how inaccurate these GCMS tests really are...
> 
> A recent lab test of LSD dropped onto a Tums.  Notice how they say they can’t definitively say if LSD is there or not because the Tums peaks overlap with LSD.  TUMS!!
> 
> It’s my belief things can hide easier than we realize in those graphs, and if a simple calcium carbonate Tums can block the LSD peaks on a test truly makes you wonder what else is getting missed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #9567 - LSD on Tums, 9567
> 
> 
> DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugsdata.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -GC


I would not take that even if it was given to me by an angel from above.


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> Ok most first time reports you see are glowing simply because no ones is going to post about the first dud experience they had. Glowing reports get put up most often cuz people feel amazing and want to tell the world.


Did you even read the post? People complain about dud drugs all the time, just try searching for "tried cocaine". A few samples:


> I tried cocaine for the first time and I’m disappointed
> I did 4 ‘lines’ and just felt energetic and my mouth went numb. Is this what all the rich people are obsessed about?
> Complete waste of money





> After having tried cocaine multiple times at different doses, Caffeine hits me harder
> I can't figure out if I am not taking enough or if there is a brain chemical issue but I can't seem to really feel high on cocaine. Bumps barely make me feel anything and after a few lines I might start feeling more energetic and focused. Gumming does make my face feel numb but is similar to snorting with how I feel otherwise. In contrast caffine gets me extremely energetic, sometimes drinking a monster even makes me euphoric. Anyone have any thoughts?



MDMA has just as much hype built up around it as cocaine, yet very few people are making "excuse me, I was promised ecstasy" posts. I do see them from time to time, but nearly all of them are due to SSRIs or untested product.


----------



## finitelifeform

Negi said:


> Did you even read the post? People complain about dud drugs all the time, just try searching for "tried cocaine". A few samples:
> 
> 
> 
> MDMA has just as much hype built up around it as cocaine, yet very few people are making "excuse me, I was promised ecstasy" posts. I do see them from time to time, but nearly all of them are due to SSRIs or untested product.


MDMA has proven benefits that are far more superior to many other drugs, cocaine being one of them. The hype is real, when it's real MDMA. 
If there's a therapeutic drug out there, MDMA is one of them. And that's what it began as before it began being made in clandestine labs and popped up all over the place. It began in the rooms, offices, spaces of therapists for use in psychotherapy and was called 'Adam'. It's now on it's way back to being that tool in psychotherapy if MAPS can get it passed, which is very likely as it's exceeded all requirements so far and got given breakthrough therapy designation last December. This means it could be a prescription medication as soon as 2023. 

It's not hype, not at all. Not unless you're abusing it and don't understand it's benefits.
Cocaine on the other hand, very unlikely to find it's way onto a prescription in the same way MDMA would/likely is going to be.


----------



## indigoaura

> My issue with things is people claiming only safrole makes "magic mdma" when its not its about competent cooks making high purity drugs to get the desired effect of said drug.


I do agree with this. Several of the meh batches I have had were supposedly synthed from safrole, but in someone's bathroom probably. Some corner was still cut in the wrong way.



> if people just turned their brain on and did some research on how to get good quality drugs instead of just getting themselves ripped off they wouldn't have to complain.


Not a fair statement. My brain is fairly well turned on, but my circles are professional and not party circles. I don't know how to get an "in" into the right niche social circle that would have what I need, and the DW is so full of scams and bullshit that it is like playing slots in Vegas.


----------



## G_Chem

Negi said:


> Did you even read the post? People complain about dud drugs all the time, just try searching for "tried cocaine". A few samples:
> 
> 
> 
> MDMA has just as much hype built up around it as cocaine, yet very few people are making "excuse me, I was promised ecstasy" posts. I do see them from time to time, but nearly all of them are due to SSRIs or untested product.



I could ask you the same... You seem to ignore everything that goes against your belief.

Dude you quite obviously sit on the Internet and have never actually experienced many of these drug scenes you speak so definitively about..

Cocaine “hype” is much higher if you look at posts from both cocaine and mdma subreddit, cocaine posts glamorizing use are like 5-10x more than MDMA.

That said trying to even compare cocaine experiences and “duds” to MDMA is just plain stupid.  The variables between the two drugs are nearly infinite.  Their mode of action, they’re duration, their purity, their source, all different..

And I disagree there’s posts fairly often asking what happened to MDMA on there.. Maybe I watch the subreddit better than you?

-GC


----------



## Negi

G_Chem said:


> That said trying to even compare cocaine experiences and “duds” to MDMA is just plain stupid.  The variables between the two drugs are nearly infinite.  Their mode of action, they’re duration, their purity, their source, all different..


I'm not comparing the effects in the slightest. All I'm using those examples for is to say that when people have a disappointing first time with a drug, they are more than happy to complain on the internet about it.



G_Chem said:


> And I disagree there’s posts fairly often asking what happened to MDMA on there.. Maybe I watch the subreddit better than you?


That's not what I'm talking about. Like I said on the last page:


Negi said:


> The view that MDMA is mediocre or even bad these days is heavily concentrated in longterm users (in terms of how long since their first MDMA usage) who are comparing it to experiences often years in the past. While some like those in the thread have found batches that seem to buck the trend, others haven't (or don't report it) making it hard to rule out tolerance or rose tinted glasses for many of the reports.


I am aware that this thread is not the only place on the internet that people believe that MDMA has changed for the worst since they started using it. I'm not talking about them. I'm focusing on first time user experiences, because they completely rule out any issues of tolerance, losing the magic, or even becoming habituated to the experience.

Multiple users in this thread have attested that mehDMA is a disappointing and mediocre experience even for new users, who don't have previous experience with "magic" MDMA. I am saying that there don't appear to be any significant number of first time reports that match the mehDMA symptoms, and most report effects that users in this thread attribute to "magic" MDMA.


----------



## indigoaura

@Negi - I am sometimes told that I come across as combative, when that is not my intent. So, I understand that sometimes our intentions and what we generate through writing are not in sync. However, sometimes it really seems like you are just looking for small details in posts to debate, but you ignore the larger point or bigger picture. And sometimes people make posts directly to you and ask you things or bring up issues that you 100% ignore.

I believe your intentions are good, but it does often feel like the people who are trying to explain what they are experiencing are having to defend themselves.

For example, we just had a new contributor to the thread who shared a story about a group of people doing subpar, meh-DMA. He said new users and experienced users had the same lackluster experience. Instead of accepting his story, you argued with him about the semantics of the word "thousands" as used to describe the quantity of complaints about MDMA. The larger point, which was clear to me from his post, was that many people complain of this phenomenon.

You keep wanting to use reddit as some kind of litmus test, never-mind the fact that reddit itself is a subcommunity, and the reddit MDMA forum is an even smaller subcommunity. Not everyone has a reddit account, and not everyone would be comfortable talking about their illicit drug experience on reddit. Different websites attract different types of profiles and are going to generate different information. Somewhere like the Hive for example, would have much more detailed and chemistry specific information than reddit.

I don't say any of this with malice or ill intent. I appreciate the way you challenge the thread and bring up new information and perspective. But there are A LOT of people in this thread who are articulating basically the same thing, and I do think it would be more productive to try to figure out the "whys" of that collective experience than debating minutia.

For whatever it is worth, I think if someone had never done MDMA and did MehDMA as a first experience, the most likely reaction would be "Ok, that was MDMA. It was ok. I was fucked up, but I felt like shit afterwards so I don't know that it is really worth my time." I think they would associate that subpar experience with the MDMA and not think much else of it. They would not complain the internet because it was not totally fake, they were definitely fucked up, but just not that impressed.

You described having an experience that lacked euphoria. If you had never experienced a typical euphoric roll, what would you have thought of that non-euphoric roll if you had no basis of comparison?

I never wrote anything online about my one and only cocaine experience because it was just so dull. I assumed that was just cocaine, and it was boring, and I moved on to other things.


----------



## foolsgold25

They definitely had that feel to them. I took mdma / pills most weekends from 2007 - 2009 & my stash dried out a few years later. We used to buy 500 lovehearts for £500 and they lasted us for a while. Every single time we would come up like a rocket and then things changed in the synth. I’m not complaining, just very grateful that we got to enjoy those nights. Hundreds of them at sankeys & in ibiza. We need those times back more than ever now.


----------



## indigoaura

foolsgold25 said:


> They definitely had that feel to them. I took mdma / pills most weekends from 2007 - 2009 & my stash dried out a few years later. We used to buy 500 lovehearts for £500 and they lasted us for a while. Every single time we would come up like a rocket and then things changed in the synth. I’m not complaining, just very grateful that we got to enjoy those nights. Hundreds of them at sankeys & in ibiza. We need those times back more than ever now.



That "coming up like a rocket" feeling is one of the key differences to me.


----------



## indigoaura

Happy New Year to all of you!

I will be trying some new product here in a bit, and will try to keep you in the loop. Drugs Data reports "MDMA," but I have no idea what the purity is.

I would like to hit a 150 mg dosage. Published research I have seen on mydriasis seems to indicate that 150 mg produces the most mydriasis.

However, I don't know what purity this product is. I had another batch that was white and looked quite pure that was only 80 out of 100% purity (not out of 84%, this was confirmed with IEC).

This product is less white than that, and visually seems less pure. Also, reagent tests seemed weak, slower color changes and more diluted color. I know you cannot really tell by appearances, but I really do not think this is more than 80% pure.

So, I could take 200 mg and my dosage would probably be in the 160 mg range, or I could take abt 190 mg and the dosage would probably be in the 152 range. I realize these are guesstimates, but I would really like to be assured of hitting 150 mg of MDMA.

I am planning to dissolve in water to eliminate any issues with polymorphism.

@user666, my glucometer is standing by as well.

Edited to add - I have never double dropped in my life. For all the talk of burning out receptors, I have always been a "start with one pill" kind of person. The max mg dosage I have taken in one dose is 155 mg (and that was the 80% pure product).

See ya'll in 2021. :D


----------



## Negi

indigoaura said:


> For example, we just had a new contributor to the thread who shared a story about a group of people doing subpar, meh-DMA. He said new users and experienced users had the same lackluster experience. Instead of accepting his story, you argued with him about the semantics of the word "thousands" as used to describe the quantity of complaints about MDMA. The larger point, which was clear to me from his post, was that many people complain of this phenomenon.


I did accept the personal aspects of his story. If I had issues with it I would have raised questions or asked for clarification. I try to make it clear in my posts that I accept the personal experiences people are having - they are certainly the authority on what they are feeling. However when the topic and scope expands outwards into things that are more observable and quantifiable, I feel like discussion should happen.



indigoaura said:


> You keep wanting to use reddit as some kind of litmus test, never-mind the fact that reddit itself is a subcommunity, and the reddit MDMA forum is an even smaller subcommunity. Not everyone has a reddit account, and not everyone would be comfortable talking about their illicit drug experience on reddit. Different websites attract different types of profiles and are going to generate different information. Somewhere like the Hive for example, would have much more detailed and chemistry specific information than reddit.


People robs banks because that's where the money is. I post about Reddit because that's where the users are (especially new/younger ones). The Reddit MDMA subreddit has over 140,000 subscribers, the general drugs one has over 730,000. They both have dozens of posts every day with high levels of engagement in the comments. As far as I know they are likely the most active drug discussion forums on the current internet (I'm not willing to wade into the morass of "sesh" and drug meme Facebook pages). Sure, it's no more than a fraction of a fraction of the current drug using population, but it's the largest single window I know of to view it. The last time I checked Erowid had only a handful of first time MDMA reports from recent years, either due to a lack of submissions or the heavy backlog of reports that still need to be reviewed. You can get that many in a single week on Reddit.



indigoaura said:


> I do think it would be more productive to try to figure out the "whys" of that collective experience than debating minutia.


I feel that discovering the scope of this issue is key to discovering a "why". If it turns out that this isn't a widespread issue, it can eliminate some suspects, such as the switch to PMK.



indigoaura said:


> You described having an experience that lacked euphoria. If you had never experienced a typical euphoric roll, what would you have thought of that non-euphoric roll if you had no basis of comparison?


I probably would have considered it "ok", if I just had alcohol and weed to compare it to. If I had done any reading of say Erowid trip reports (or Reddit posts) I would have been disappointed and asking some questions.


----------



## higherconciousness

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I procured some “mdma” last night and had quite a disappointing experience. I remember 10 years ago when I got pills they were smackers. Extreme euphoria, increased empathy and sociability, slight stimulation. Whatever I got last night was terrible. All it did was give me the negative side effects of mdma (nystagmus, dilated pupils, weird temperature fluctuations, drowsiness, and it also made me even more introverted). What the hell is going around these days? Is it because I’m older and my drug addled brain doesn’t respond the same? I haven’t done any stims or other mdma like drugs for years. What possibly could this substance have been?


----------



## PsychedelicSummer

Happy New Year Indigoaura (and every one else), and thank you for all your efforts and patience in this thread. Much appreciated. One day this mystery will get solved!


----------



## indigoaura

higherconciousness said:


> Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I procured some “mdma” last night and had quite a disappointing experience. I remember 10 years ago when I got pills they were smackers. Extreme euphoria, increased empathy and sociability, slight stimulation. Whatever I got last night was terrible. All it did was give me the negative side effects of mdma (nystagmus, dilated pupils, weird temperature fluctuations, drowsiness, and it also made me even more introverted). What the hell is going around these days? Is it because I’m older and my drug addled brain doesn’t respond the same? I haven’t done any stims or other mdma like drugs for years. What possibly could this substance have been?



Is there any way you can send it to a lab? If you are in the USA, send to Drugs Data and make sure to put all of this in the notes. Maybe if enough people send samples with these types of comments, they will take note. 

What you described is what I experience on lab tested "MDMA," but my pupils do not dilate. This thread (and the original thread) are trying to figure out why this is happening.

You will read a lot of back and forth and debate in the thread, as well as links to articles with possible connections to the topic. Right now, we think there may be some type of contaminant present that is interfering in the high, or that the product is being mis-identified as MDMA when it is NOT MDMA. Other factors may be individual history and genetics that are causing some users to respond in an atypical fashion. However, there have been reports here in the thread of first-time MDMA users who have subpar experiences as well. Other long-time users eventually have a "classic" experience on a different batch of MDMA.

Wish we had more definitive information for you. 

Would you be open to posting your experience on our Wiki? If not, would you mind giving us a little more detail here? 

When was the last time you had quality MDMA that produced the expected effects?
Did anyone else try this product with you? What was their experience?
What is your history of MDMA use? Did you abuse it previously? When did you first use MDMA?

For ease of communication here, we refer to subpar MDMA as Meh-DMA and classic MDMA as Magic MDMA. 

Happy New Year.


----------



## higherconciousness

I haven’t done ecstasy, molly, mdma, or whatever the hell people call it these days for approximately  ten years or so. I did do 6-apb 4 years ago and had a great experience. I first took E when I was 15 in high school and it was such a magical and transformational experience. Waves of rushing euphoria swept across my body and I recall dialing almost everyone in my phone book to express my gratitude for there mere existence. From age 15-20 I did E collectively 30 times or so and had similar experiences bar the few times I got bunk pills.

The material I acquired last night was in a capsule and had a grey/tan crystal appearance. I first took 150mg and then plugged another 50mg an hour later.  30 minutes in I began to feel it’s effects. As I’ve stated all it resulted in was weird temperature fluctuations (cold in a hot room), nystagmus with dilated pupils etc. pretty much all of the negative side effects you’d read on erowid in the effects section. It was such a bummer. I kept waiting in desperate apprehension for these weird side effects to dissipate and the magic to ensue but nothing came to fruition. What struck me was how tired and introverted it made. I thought mdma was suppose to do the opposite (pure mdma as I recall can be oddly sedating and trance like, but it wasn’t like that at all). My girl tried 100mg and didn’t feel a damn thing. She said it sobered her up, mind you she is on Effexor but even an snri shouldn’t inhibit mdma that much.

That day I had done a small dose of deoxymethoxetamine 5 hours prior so that probably wasn’t an relevant factor. From what little I know Dissociatives shouldn’t completely block the effect of mdma. I’ve done ketamine with mdma and had a great time. I wish I had more so I could properly have it analyzed.


----------



## indigoaura

Live updates

11 pm - Blood glucose 90 (Yes, I have a high fasting glucose level)
Dissolved 190 mg of MDMA in water. It dissolved redily.
Drank it.
Very bitter.
Made my tongue numb. Is that typical? I always just put it in a capsule, so I don't know.

@higherconciousness Yes, to everything you said. I get the cold feeling in the hot room and the negative side effects without the primary effect. Yes, it makes me tired and introverted and antisocial. My partner called it, "a collection of symptoms."


----------



## F.U.B.A.R.

higherconciousness said:


> Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I procured some “mdma” last night and had quite a disappointing experience. I remember 10 years ago when I got pills they were smackers. Extreme euphoria, increased empathy and sociability, slight stimulation. Whatever I got last night was terrible. All it did was give me the negative side effects of mdma (nystagmus, dilated pupils, weird temperature fluctuations, drowsiness, and it also made me even more introverted). What the hell is going around these days? Is it because I’m older and my drug addled brain doesn’t respond the same? I haven’t done any stims or other mdma like drugs for years. What possibly could this substance have been?



That is the question. You're lucky to have even got dilated pupils. Most of the MDMA I take these days just gets me fucked, but I never seem to 'break through' to heaven.


----------



## TripSitterNZ

indigoaura said:


> Live updates
> 
> 11 pm - Blood glucose 90 (Yes, I have a high fasting glucose level)
> Dissolved 190 mg of MDMA in water. It dissolved redily.
> Drank it.
> Very bitter.
> Made my tongue numb. Is that typical? I always just put it in a capsule, so I don't know.
> 
> @higherconciousness Yes, to everything you said. I get the cold feeling in the hot room and the negative side effects without the primary effect. Yes, it makes me tired and introverted and antisocial. It is My partner called it, "a collection of symptoms."


yeah i have had that effect when for some reason i just let a mdma pill dissolve under my tounge once. A few people i know always reported a numb mouth from drinking mdma water.


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## dalpat077

F.U.B.A.R. said:


> That is the question. You're lucky to have even got dilated pupils. Most of the MDMA I take these days just gets me fucked, but I never seem to 'break through' to heaven.


Don't fret.  Somebody has undertaken to buy me one of those little chemistry sets (you know: those little ones for the kids) (for educational purposes of course)!  I'll be sure to try and figure out the problem for you!   In the meantime: growing some copper sulfate crystals on a piece of cotton.  Pretty things really!


----------



## Observer01

I have followed this thread for almost it's entirety. Only recently in the last few months have I made a few comments. I suppose what kept me coming back is the mystery.  I don't have a firm opinion either way. It seems to me that the MDMA most readily available to the masses, primarily manufactured by the Dutch superlabs,  could indeed be sub par due to contaminants, byproducts, or could even be a imposter RC as has been suggested here. It also seems very possible that it is a bias that is being experienced by long term users, and in fact, the drug has not changed. ( I would write off the times where multiple new users had sub par effects to indeed being bad product, as that should never happen,  but do not necessarily extend that view to the majority of the supply of readily available MDMA.). I am partly confused because while my MDMA experiences are certainly not as good as the first few times I used it, they are still rewarding and enjoyable. I'm in a limbo, uncertain if the slight reduction in the positivity of my experiences are due to subpar product or are a result of familiarity, changes in my brain chemistry, and rose tinted glasses. 

 I do not know the answer to this. 

What I do know is that this is a dead end. 

The only way forward is what @indigoaura is attempting to accomplish in another thread. (Great job for getting that going).  Concrete scientific analysis of the product that specifically looks for the issues discussed here. The rest of this is all noise. 4 years of discussion is enough. The hypotheses are there and are fairly concrete and established. 

I see myself as an outsider here, with no true skin in the game. However, @indigoaura,  it does seem from time to time that you in fact are the one with a bit of narrow minded and combative stance, and perhaps that needs to be reflected upon.  In a 300 plus page thread, there are going to be many folks with differing opinions who want to debate the other side. This is most definitely not "Gaslighting" as you referred to it earlier. Academic discussion requires both sides to be open to differing opinions, which is something that you espouse that you believe in frequently, but do not seem to actually practice. The information and posts that particularly @Negi have brought recently are well researched, well sourced, non combative, and educational. This is not in anyway to say that he is "right", but his viewpoint is 100% valid and relevant to this discussion. He goes out of his way to acknowledge that is it possible that the product is indeed sub-par. He is simply providing counter arguments against that, which is a healthy thing in an academic debate. 

Personally I am dropping out of this thread for at least 6 months, and will check in back at a later time to see if anything has developed. Good luck with the search, I am very interested to see where this goes, and I applaud your efforts to solve this mystery.


----------



## finitelifeform

higherconciousness said:


> Not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I procured some “mdma” last night and had quite a disappointing experience. I remember 10 years ago when I got pills they were smackers. Extreme euphoria, increased empathy and sociability, slight stimulation. Whatever I got last night was terrible. All it did was give me the negative side effects of mdma (nystagmus, dilated pupils, weird temperature fluctuations, drowsiness, and it also made me even more introverted). What the hell is going around these days? Is it because I’m older and my drug addled brain doesn’t respond the same? I haven’t done any stims or other mdma like drugs for years. What possibly could this substance have been?



Definetly in the right place as this post seems to be geared around how MDMA has changed so much over the years.
You're not the only one having this experience, as is evident by everyone else chiming in with their similiar experiences.
I too have had similiar experiences. I got some molly a while ago and it was trash. The thing is, the reviews for it were excellent (having sourced it from the dark net) but I knew it seemed too good to be true. There's a lot of padding that goes on in reviews for products online and it's very easy to manipulate the numbers, ratings etc if you know how. Anyway, yeah, it was garbage. I felt like what seemed like MDMA for all but 30 minutes but it was a very 'fragile' MDMA experience ie the slightest bit of deviation in external/internal factors turned the experience from being present to not existing at all, and sometimes going completely south. Which is odd because with real MDMA you cannot help being on MDMA when you've taken it! Obviously! Same with speed. Just because you enter your living room doesn't mean the speed disappears. It's still there, still intense as shit. 

All that being said, I try to be as objective as possible.
Things like antidepressants will have a significant affect on the level in which you feel the MDMA. 
The initial dose you also take has a massive role too. If you take too much to begin with you can burn yourself out early on. The ideal dose is around 100-150mg (I'm not mistaken? It's been ages) and you then re-dose a few hours later, but not with a huge dose either. You don't need much MDMA (if it's real) to feel it. 
If you're using other drugs at the time, this can be play a role. Anything that affects brain chemistry can also affect your MDMA experience. Stimulants being one main example. I knew someone who took steroids reguarly who tried MDMA and because he had been using steroids for that long and they had altered his body physiologically on different levels, it affected his brain chemistry and therefore he didn't feel it as much. 
This list isn't exhaustive, by the way. Some real research is needed on this topic for an in-depth look at it. Last but not least is probably an obvious one. Is it bunk stuff? So much of it floating around today.


----------



## indigoaura

Just a quick update...

@Observer01 - Yes, I believe the only way forward is with advanced scientific analysis. We can talk all we want here and compare research articles and personal experiences, but none of that will definitively answer the question.

Also, I am aware that I can come across as combative (as I already said to Negi in my other post). Not my intention. However, I am going to stand up for myself and for all of the other users who have shared their experiences over the years. Not going to roll over and cater to the latest incomer who has arrived to tell everyone else that they are wrong. Also, "Psychologists use the term “*gaslighting*” to refer to a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone else (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory or perceptions." That is what I often see in the thread. The comment was not directed at you or at anyone in particular, but we have wasted pages and pages just trying to defend our own "reality, memory, or perceptions."

"Academic discussion requires both sides to be open to differing opinions, which is something that you espouse that you believe in frequently, but do not seem to actually practice." I have openly explored as wide a range of theories and explanations as I have been able to. I have posted about Zinc deficiency and serotonin, I have tried the NAC protocol, I have tried the BCP-157 protocol. I have posted trying to find out if my birth control could be interfering in my MDMA experiences, and openly, repeatedly acknowledged that my issue could be history of use (but that does not explain the new users who were given LAB TESTED MDMA and had a subpar experience).

(Edited to add - I have also spent more money on this endeavor than most people in this thread. I have paid for lab testing of almost all of my meh samples, and for a magic sample from another poster - easily $700-$800 on testing services alone. I've engaged actively with Drugs Data and International Energy Control trying to get scientific involvement to resolve this issue. So, not sure what kind of _practice_ you are looking for. I've primarily advocated for gathering hard, scientific data to shed further light.)

Being open to debate does not mean that you allow the other side of the debate to steamroll your perspective. That is what academic debate is. You hold your own position as you engage different viewpoints.

@user666
I did the initial blood glucose test at 11 pm before I took the MDMA and it was 90. At 1 am, before I took a 2nd dose, it was up to 105. Nothing was consumed between 11 pm and 1 am other than the MDMA and water.

Overall experience report from last night...
Dissolving in water made no difference, and increasing the dose made no difference in the overall quality of the roll. I did come up a bit faster, and took note of that come-up around 11:30 pm. The first batch of MDMA that I took was not good. I was completely couch locked and spaced out. My partner even commented repeatedly that I did not seem like I was rolling and that my mannerisms, expressions, and movements did not seem "right."

I switched to a different batch of MDMA for the second dose. This was the 80% pure batch, and definitely the best of all my acquisitions over the past few years as far as I am concerned. I could feel the tone of the experience shift when that hit, and things became more positive, but it was very muted. It was not as positive of an experience as it was in the past when I started with this batch to begin with. This really just cements for me that the batches are different, very different. Both of these batches were lab tested as MDMA only, but had completely different feelings to them.

I threw some MDA on at the end, but it was a lost cause at that point.

Overall, very meh.


----------



## indigoaura

PsychedelicSummer said:


> Happy New Year Indigoaura (and every one else), and thank you for all your efforts and patience in this thread. Much appreciated. One day this mystery will get solved!



Thank you, happy New Year!


----------



## indigoaura

Here is another example of a sample where the testing company could not identify the contents fully.









						DrugsData.org (was EcstasyData): Test Details : Result #9166 - Pulver, 9166
					

DrugsData (EcstasyData) lab testing result




					www.drugsdata.org
				






> The test lab's analytical method cannot determine which stereoisomer of fluorinated ethylamphetamine is in this sample. It could contain a single one, or several.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> @user666
> I did the initial blood glucose test at 11 pm before I took the MDMA and it was 90. At 1 am, before I took a 2nd dose, it was up to 105. Nothing was consumed between 11 pm and 1 am other than the MDMA and water.


Oh, no. Did you forget the N.E. graphs in Pifl paper ? After 2h the NET mediated effects on the blood glucose levels would have decayed.
Anyway, you exhibited apporoximately +16% increase in the blood glucose level when +35% is expected.


----------



## indigoaura

Research Article: https://sci-hub.st/https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073809000954

Title: Optimization of HS-SPME/GC–MS analysis and its use in the profiling of illicit ecstasy tablets (Part 1)

Authors: Federica Bonadio, Pierre Margot, Olivier Dele´mont, Pierre Esseiva



> A headspace solid-phase microextraction procedure (HS-SPME) was developed for the profiling of traces present in 3,4-methylenedioxymethylampethamine (MDMA). Traces were first extracted using HSSPME and then analyzed by gas chromatography–mass spectroscopy (GC–MS). The HS-SPME conditions were optimized using varying conditions. Optimal results were obtained when 40 mg of crushed MDMA sample was heated at 80 8C for 15 min, followed by extraction at 80 8C for 15 min with a polydimethylsiloxane/divinylbenzene coated fibre. A total of 31 compounds were identified as traces related to MDMA synthesis, namely precursors, intermediates or by-products. In addition some fatty acids used as tabletting materials and caffeine used as adulterant, were also detected.





> These ATS are synthetic drugs that are prepared in uncontrolled environment with little or no quality control, resulting in incomplete and side-reactions that provide several traces in the crude products, which are not normally extensively cleaned.



The article includes a table of chemicals that were extracted from seized MDMA using a new method.

I am still in the process of reading this, but noticed that they have to extract the contaminants before they analyze them. They are not just analyzing the samples and seeing all the contaminants. If it was easy to identify the contaminants just by using GCMS on the original sample, wouldn't they do that?

Is this information something that can help those who are trying to use column chromatography and/or TLC plates? @user666 and @ThreePointCircle 


> Four fibres, with different polarities were evaluated: (PDMS),
> (PDMS/DVB), (CAR/PDMS) and (DVB/CAR/PDMS). The PDMS and
> CAR/PDMS fibres were rapidly discarded due to their weak affinity
> to the target compounds (respectively, 31% and 37% of the targeted
> compounds extracted). The results obtain with PDMS/DVB
> (80%) and DVB/CAR/PDMS (60%) fibres were far better.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Oh, no. Did you forget the N.E. graphs in Pifl paper ? After 2h the NET mediated effects on the blood glucose levels would have decayed.
> Anyway, you exhibited apporoximately +16% increase in the blood glucose level when +35% is expected.



After I took the blood glucose level the second time, I took a different batch of MDMA. At that point, I felt like any further analysis would be clouded by two different batches of product. 

I have eye dilation pics too, which I can share. 

Keep in mind that the 16% increase is from 190 mg of MDMA. I mean...shit. That is a high, high dose for such a minimal change.


----------



## indigoaura

More highlights from the article I just posted:



> The results obtained indicate that with low amount of weighted samples (10 mg), some target compounds are difficult to detect or are absent.
> This behaviour is illustrated in Fig. 3 presenting the relative intensity of a selection of the target compounds, where the compound unknown-176 is not detected with 10 mg of the sample.



So, what does this mean for labs like Drugs Data who are asking for 20 mg of product and are not extracting the contaminants first?



> In addition under high temperatures (90 or 100 8C) and long extraction times, some compounds co-elute as it is the case for 3,4-methylenedioxy-phenylbutanone-1 and MDMA.



Co-elute Definition: coelution (countable and uncountable, plural coelutions) (analytical chemistry) The process whereby two or more chemical compounds *elute* from a chromatographic column at the same time, making separation and identification difficult.



			Sci-Hub | Optimization of HS-SPME/GC–MS analysis and its use in the profiling of illicit ecstasy tablets (Part 1). Forensic Science International, 187(1-3), 73–80 | 10.1016/j.forsciint.2009.03.004


----------



## indigoaura

<pic removed>

Eye Dilation. @user666, want to measure it?


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> So, what does this mean for labs like Drugs Data who are asking for 20 mg of product and are not extracting the contaminants first?


That article illustrates what kind of analysis is needed to detect most of the impurities of the impurities. The HS-PDMS sampling process causes some loss of the sample, so 20mg is sufficient for the lone GC/MS analysis but double that is needed for the HS-SPME + GC/MS method.

The HS-SPME is a solid sampling technique technique which could be easily adapted by labs like Drugs Data. The authors of this article fed the impurites adsorbed by the PDMS/DVB fibers directly into the input port of their GC/MS analyzer... DrugsData could easily do the same.  Hell, we could even buy and send them these adsorbing PDMS/DVB fibers with the sample, since they are not very expensive and available from here.

But that would make the most sense when two samples are sent for impurity differentiation, namely: Magic-MDMA and Meh-MDMA, and when the effects of both samples had been tested on some MDMA-naive users first.

P.S.
I am curious what is the neuropharmacological activity of the compound 16 and 23 in Table1 of that article.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Eye Dilation. @user666, want to measure it?


Yes. 47% - 46%
Compare this with the photo and calculation in this post.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> That article illustrates what kind of analysis is needed to detect most of the impurities of the impurities. The HS-PDMS sampling process causes some loss of the sample, so 20mg is sufficient for their GC/MS analysis but double that is needed for The HS-SPME + GC/MS method.
> 
> The HS-SPME is a solid sampling technique technique which could be easily adapted by labs like Drugs Data. The authors of this article fed the impurites adsorbed by the PDMS/DVB fibers directly into the input port of their GC/MS analyzer... DrugsData could easily do the same.  Hell, we could even buy and send them these adsorbing PDMS/DVBfibers with the sample, since they are not very expensive and available from here.
> 
> But that would make the most sense when two samples are sent for impurity differentiation, namely: Magic-MDMA and Meh-MDMA, and when both were tested on some MDMA-naive users first.
> 
> P.S.
> I am curious what is the neuropharmacological activity of the compound 16 and 23 in Table1 of that article.



Could I conceivably follow the process laid out in this article and use those threads to remove impurities from my samples? Would it be possible to then re-crystallize the remaining MDMA? Are the threads removing all the impurities, or just a limited amount? Seemed like the threads were limited, based on the comparison between using 40 mg and 100 mg of MDMA as the base.
.
As for the 47% dilation...that is in line with the 49% dilation you measured on another pic of my eyes with a meh sample. 

I was also curious about the unidentified compounds in the study.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> I agree, but the time scales on the graphs in the Pifl paper were much shorter than 2h after administration ...not longer


That is my bad then. I was not looking at the graph, and I must have mis-remembered. I thought it was 1 hour after the comeup. Next time, I will reference the article before I go into it.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Could I conceivably follow the process laid out in this article and use those threads to remove impurities from my samples?


Interesting question.  The process involves precise heating of the sample at 80ºC so the sublimated/melted impurities get adsorbed on these PDMS/DVB fibers.  The Chromatogram in Fig.2 illustrates that MDMA (compound 20) does not get absorbed by them.  However, the amount that gets adsorbed on these fibers is minuscule compared to the 40mg sample size so this is not sufficient for a preparative process.

It seems that since you are not interested in preserving the impuritues but in removing them, then ovenizing the contaminated  MDMA HCl at temperatures below its melting point (147ºC) would also sublimate or melt these impurities which could be blown away by a fan when in the gaseous phases (vacuum desiccator would enhance this process even more) ...or adsorbed/filtered in the liquid phase by something cheaper than these PDMS/DVB fibers.


----------



## indigoaura

user666 said:


> Interesting question.  The process involves precise heating of the sample at 80ºC so the sublimated/melted impurities get adsorbed on these PDMS/DVB fibers.  The Chromatogram in Fig.2 illustrates that MDMA (compound 20) does not get absorbed.  The amount that gets adsorbed on these fibers is miniscule compared to the 40mg sample size.
> 
> It seems that since you are not interested in preserving the impuritues but in removing them, then ovenizing MDMA HCl at temperatures below its melting point (147ºC) would also sublimate or melt these impurities which could be blown away by a fan when in the gaseus phases (vacuum dessicator would help) ...or adsorbed/filtered by something cheaper than these PDMS/DVB fibers in the liquid phase.


 Well, ideally, I would like to send the impurities to a lab and clean the MDMA at the same time. 

At the very least, if I could use the threads to remove the impurities and Drugs Data analyzed the threads and found impurities present, then I could at least explain, "Hey, this was a sample that you previously indicated was only MDMA, but these impurities were present as well."

There are a lot of things that could move this conversation forward productively. If there is a cleaning method for subpar product that WORKS to remove the impurities, that would be huge. Everyone in the thread who has subpar product could test it and confirm if it changed the effects or not. Is that ideal or research study quality? No. I know that the ideal group would be new users. However, if the old and washed up users have a process they can follow to improve their experience, that would be valuable information.

Similarly, if the specific impurities could be extracted, that would be valuable as well. Maybe, eventually, the impurity could be identified through regular GCMS testing if the companies knew what they were looking for.


----------



## indigoaura

Have we read this one before? Another Tamer Awad article.
Title: GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA


			https://sci-hub.st/https://academic.oup.com/chromsci/article-abstract/49/5/345/315079
		


I don't recall discussing MPBA before.


----------



## user666

dalpat077 said:


> Sorry for butting in here but in my constant search for knowledge and understanding and for research purposes  (and not knowing anything about MDMA):
> 
> Can somebody in a few simple words just clarify to me the issue here?  As far as I know: MDMA is MDMA is MDMA is MDMA.  It has a certain chemical structure and that's that.  Is the issue here that over the years (this is an old thread if you look at the date on which it was started) MDMA has been adulterated, attempts have been made to synthesize more potent analogs, or what?


The problem is that the recreational mixture colloquially known as "Ecstasy" is not composed of only racemic 3,4-MDMA HCl.  The neuropharmacological activity of the remaining ingredients of this mixture is unknown and the working theory is that some of them interfere with the typical psychoactive activity of the main ingredient. ( e.g. see the Pifl paper ).

Most commercial labs do not bother detecting these additional ingredients (or are not capable of detecting them) ...especially if they occur in very small quantities but still have a strong neuropharmacological activity in microgram or nanogram ranges.    A hypothetical example of such sleepy (non pupil-dilating) Meh-Ecstasy, that would fly under the radar of most commercial labs, would be the mixtrure of pure racemic 3,4-MDMA HCl mixed with 0.000001% of Carfentanil.



dalpat077 said:


> In other words: would the issue be solved if there were such a thing available now as pure and straight MDMA i.e. 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine?


Yes, and for completeness it would have to be the racemic hydrochloride salt of it.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Well, ideally, I would like to send the impurities to a lab and clean the MDMA at the same time.
> 
> At the very least, if I could use the threads to remove the impurities and Drugs Data analyzed the threads and found impurities present, then I could at least explain, "Hey, this was a sample that you previously indicated was only MDMA, but these impurities were present as well."


I do not know how long the adsorbed impurities remain on these fibers at room temperature. Maybe it is only an hour...  In any case, the adsorbed amount is so small that it is sufficient for an analytical process but NOT for a preparative process.

If you do not want to do preparative C.C. and since we do not know of a working Trituration procedure, your best bet for removing some of the more volatile contaminants would be to buy a heated vacuum dessicator, put your pulverized product in it for several days on a cheap sorbent and hope that the "meh" compounds sublimate or melt away and get absorbed/adsorbed by the sorbent.  Obvously this would not affect the contaminants, which have a higher melting temperature than the 3,4-MDMA HCl, but I don't think that such strongly bound compounds would be adsorbed onto these PDMS/DVB fibers anyway...at least not at 80ºC of the proposed HS-SPME process.


----------



## user666

indigoaura said:


> Have we read this one before? Another Tamer Awad article.
> Title: GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA
> 
> 
> https://sci-hub.st/https://academic.oup.com/chromsci/article-abstract/49/5/345/315079


I don't remember reading it but it is just another example of compounds that co-elute with the 3,4-MDMA and have an identical mass spectrum.  In other words, these are compounds that the underivatized GC/MS analysis will be unable to distinguish form the 3,4-MDMA.



indigoaura said:


> I don't recall discussing MPBA before.


Notice that MPBA has only one oxygen atom while MDMA has 2 oxygen atoms in its methylenedioxy bridge.
I don't remember any β-methyl compounds being discussed but someone in the Old Thread had listed many of the isobaries including the ones that have their methylenedioxy bridge busted open.
All the candidate isobaries postulated in the old thread should be gathered and reposted here.  They had their structural formulas attached as an image, so it should be easy to find them.

Unfortunately we still do not know what the neuropharmacological activity is for most of them.


----------



## indigoaura

I am in the process of trying to compile relevant research articles into a single document. One issue is that old Sci-hub links are now broken. Sci-hub changed the way the plug in functions, and old links now take me to a dead-end page. In cases where I also took note of the title of the article, they are easy to find again. However, sometimes I just saved the link and I have no idea what the original article was called. For future ease, when we share articles here, we should make sure to share the title as well as the link, so that if the links break in the future we can still locate the article.

While going through all of the links, I recalled the poster (MBaggott) who came on Bluelight briefly to gather data for a study he was doing. He proposed that the phenomenon was related to the liver of the user and not the brain. He stated that, "metabolic interactions can make MDMA effects different." He did not want to go into detail, as I think he was working on a PhD thesis or something similar. In any case, I just came across this article:

Current Link: https://sci-hub.st/10.1007/s00204-014-1412-6
Title: In vitro cytochrome P450 inhibition potential of methylenedioxy‑derived designer drugs studied with a two‑cocktail approach

I was always under the impression that inhibition of relevant enzymes such as CYP2D6 would result in an increase in the potency of MDMA. However, this article seems to imply that loss of potency is possible as well. "Prodrugs such as tramadol, mainly metabolized by one isoenzyme, could lose their potency if the bioactivation is blocked" (Dinger). What does it mean for bioactivation to be blocked? Could bioactivation of MDMA also be blocked?


----------



## indigoaura

I also want to take a moment and apologize to anyone who I have been an asshole to in this thread. I genuinely do not intend it. My partner says I have a superhero "mule" power that allows me to lock on to things in stubbornness. I think it is a form of self preservation. In any case, I apologize.


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## ageingpartyfiend

indigoaura said:


> I also want to take a moment and apologize to anyone who I have been an asshole to in this thread. I genuinely do not intend it. My partner says I have a superhero "mule" power that allows me to lock on to things in stubbornness. I think it is a form of self preservation. In any case, I apologize.


genuinely interested...the sheer amount of time and effort you have put into this subject...

why? is it worth it?


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## indigoaura

ageingpartyfiend said:


> genuinely interested...the sheer amount of time and effort you have put into this subject...
> 
> why? is it worth it?


 Why am I apologizing or why do I devote so much time to this topic?


----------



## Negi

Here are the posts from MBaggott's user account: https://www.bluelight.org/xf/search/943652/

The comments in question:



			
				https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14803210 said:
			
		

> Contaminants from the synthesis seem like a plausible theory to me. But I would suggest they are more likely to be altering metabolism in the gut and liver than changing effects in the brain. There are admittedly a few contaminants that are known to bind to reuptake transporters (see Pifli et al 2005 doi:10.1124/jpet.105.084426). But I doubt these are ever make it into the brain in high enough concentrations to matter.
> 
> I'd more readily believe contaminants alter metabolism. There must be many that are substrates for cyp2d6 and other enzymes. A reason I think altered metabolism could strongly affect the roll is because we know MDMA hits people who lack cyp2d6 differently from normal metabolizers. You can see this in Figure 2 of Schmidt et al 2016 (link below). Even though cyp2d6 gets inhibited by MDMA, it likely eats up a few tens of mg of MDMA first. Without any 2d6, you get a faster peak and a different ratio of MDMA to crappy physiologically active metabolites.  And keep in mind that any biproducts of synthesis don't need to make it into the brain to have these effects, they only need to compete with MDMA for enzymes in the gut.
> 
> Now, if this theory is true, it may be that pure MDMA is actually less "enjoyable" than MDMA with some enzyme substrates/inhibitors thrown in. In which case, maybe you need a tiny dose of dextromethorphan or something a few hours before the MDMA to recover the magic of yesteryear's MDMA.





			
				https://www.bluelight.org/xf/threads/what-is-wrong-with-the-mdma-available-today.791073/post-14803424 said:
			
		

> Overall, I don't want to be too specific in my theory. It may not be cyp2d6, although it's a leading candidate. My reference to the 2d6 data is just a demonstration in principle that metabolic interactions can make MDMA effects different. And I think many, if not most, contaminants could compete with MDMA for gut and liver enzymes.  The enzymes dealing with the 3,4-methylenedioxy bridge, for example, are likely pretty agnostic to the weird incorrect synthesis stuff on the other side of the molecule.


----------



## indigoaura

Ok, so this is going to be long. I would like to get this added to the Wiki so that it can just be a link, and (pending all of your approval) maybe we can get it linked beneath the first post?

I know that a lot has been left out here, but I was focusing on the two lines of thought that have been supported by the most research at this point. If you would like me to add a new section to the article with additional sources, please let me know what you want me to add. I simply want to establish for anyone who starts reading the thread that there is more going on here than people going back and forth with each other and drug users lamenting lost youth.

Please comment and tell me what research articles I have inadvertently left out and what you would like me to adjust before this becomes a post or a link. Some of the formatting is messed up here, but if I can just upload a PDF somehow, the the formatting will remain intact.

(Edited to add that I know I need to add the journal numbers in the Works Cited section.)



> *Introduction*
> 
> In April of 2016, user Le Junk posed a question to the Bluelight harm reduction message board. Since then, his thread, “What is wrong with the MDMA available today?” has garnered over 6,300 responses and spanned over 320 pages. The thread, which has attracted worldwide contributions, seeks to understand why some MDMA users experience an alternate effects profile even though the product is identified as MDMA by GCMS testing.
> 
> Throughout this discussion, two primary lines of thinking have emerged – either something is wrong with the MDMA or something is wrong with the user. “Loss of magic” is a frequently accepted phenomenon amongst MDMA users, where those who engaged in frequent MDMA use/abuse lose the ability to feel the primary effects of the drug. However, both experienced and new MDMA users have complained of experiencing an alternate effects profile from the drug, and some users claim to have access to two types of product with distinctly different effects profiles. This seems to indicate that “loss of magic” is not the reason behind the phenomenon.
> 
> Classic or “magic” MDMA produces empathy, elation, euphoria, music enhancement, and tactile enhancement. Some users also experience enhanced sensuality or sexuality. Mydriasis is a commonly observed physical sign of use that is easily witnessed by outside observers. Subpar MDMA, or “meh-DMA” as defined by the forum, fails to produce these effects. Instead, users report a cold and sedate experience that decreases sociability and encourages introspection. Mydriasis is reduced, and the overall effects of the drug feel muted in comparison to typical MDMA effects.
> 
> While discussing this phenomenon, users have developed multiple theories in association with published research articles. Although many theories have been discussed, the leading hypotheses involve MDMA contaminants, and/or GCMS inability to accurately differentiate coeluting isobaric derivatives. Contaminant profiles have changed as the result of changing synthesis methods, and these changes may have resulted in the alternate effects profile that users experience. The following research articles establish the basis of these theories.
> 
> *Presence of Synthesis Byproducts *
> 
> Although many labs such as Drugs Data in the USA report results of MDMA only, synthesis byproducts are present in MDMA samples. Law enforcement agencies use synthesis byproduct profiles to assist them with identifying the source of MDMA. Complex extraction techniques are sometimes used prior to analysis to separate the byproducts from the MDMA samples. These articles establish that synthesis byproducts are present in MDMA, and that byproducts/impurities vary depending on which synthesis method was used.
> 
> 
> “Synthesis and impurity profiling of MDMA prepared from commonly available starting materials” by Ryan Gallagher, Ronald Shimmon, Andrew M. McDonagh (Gallagher)
> “Impurity profiling of ecstasy tablets seized in Hong Kong by gas chromatography–mass spectrometry” by Jack Yuk Ki Cheng, Man Fai Chan, Tai Wai Chan, Mei Yuen Hung (Yuk Ki Cheng)
> “Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA prepared by different synthesis methods Comparison of impurity profiles” by M. S´wist, J. Wilamowski, A. Parczewski (S'wist)
> “A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine” by Natasha Stojanovska, Shanlin Fu, Mark Tahtouh, Tamsin Kelly, Alison Beavis, K. Paul Kirkbride (Stojanovska)
> “Optimization of HS-SPME/GC–MS analysis and its use in the profiling of illicit ecstasy tablets” by Federica Bonadio, Pierre Margot, Olivier Dele´mont, Pierre Esseiva (Bonadio)
> “Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities” by M. S´wist, J. Wilamowski, A. Parczewski (S'wist, Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities)
> *Interference with Monoamine Transporters*
> 
> “Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters” by Christian Pifl, Gabor Nagy, Sa´ ndor Bere´ nyi, Alexandra Kattinger, Harald Reither, and Sa´ ndor Antus (Pifl)
> 
> In the first article, researcher Christian Pifl establishes that some “byproducts of illegal ecstasy synthesis can interact with the primary sites of action of MDMA, the monoamine transporters, and were active with similar potency as MDMA.” In other words, some byproducts can block the action of MDMA.
> 
> “Duloxetine Inhibits Effects of MDMA (‘‘Ecstasy’’) In Vitro and in Humans in a Randomized Placebo-Controlled Laboratory Study” by Ce´dric M. Hysek et al. (Hysek)
> 
> To better understand what it may look like for monoamine transporters to be blocked in humans, consider this article on how pre-treatment with Duloxetine impacts the MDMA experience in virgin users. “The findings confirm the important role of MDMA-induced 5-HT and NE release in the psychotropic effects of MDMA” (Hysek).
> 
> *Regioisomers and Isobaric Derivatives*
> 
> In addition to the presence of potentially active synthesis byproducts, the presence of isobaric derivatives could explain why GCMS testing is inadequate at identifying certain contaminants. Isobaric derivatives are chemicals that are so structurally similar to MDMA that they may appear to be MDMA to GCMS testing. They may “co-elute” which means that the peak of one substance overlaps with another peak, making separation and identification challenging. These articles discuss the regioisomers and isobaric derivatives of MDMA, the advanced testing methodologies needed to successfully separate and identify these compounds, and the presence of these compounds in samples seized by law enforcement.
> 
> 
> “MASS SPECTRAL AND CHROMATOGRAPHIC STUDIES ON A SERIES OF REGIOISOMERS AND ISOBARIC DERIVATIVES RELATED TO METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINES” by Tamer Awad (Awad)
> “Regioisomers of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine in clandestine ecstasy pills” by Inmaculada Fierro et al. (Fierro)
> “Synthesis and Analytical Profiles for Regioisomeric and Isobaric Amines Related to MDMA, MDEA and MBDB: Differentiation of Drug and non-Drug Substances of Mass Spectral Equivalence” by C. Randall Clark (Clark)
> “Mass-Spectrometry-Based Identification of Synthetic Drug Isomers Using Infrared Ion Spectroscopy” by Kranenburg, Ruben F. et al. (Kranenburg)
> “Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Isobaric and Isomeric Substances Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine” by Laura Aalberg et al. (Aalberg)
> “GC–MS studies on acylated derivatives of 3-methoxy-4-methyl- and 4-methoxy-3-methyl-phenethylamines: Regioisomers related to 3,4-MDMA” by Tarek Belal, Tamer Awad, Jack DeRuiter, and Randall Clark (Belal)
> “Distinguishing drug isomers in the forensic laboratory: GC–VUV in addition to GC–MS for orthogonal selectivity and the use of library match scores as a new source of information” by Ruben F. Kranenburg (R. e. Kranenburg)
> “Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Methoxy Methyl Methamphetamines Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine” by Tamer Awad et al. (T. e. Awad)
> “GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA” by Tamer Awad et al. (T. e. Awad, GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA)
> “The Identification of 3,4-MDMA from Its Mass Equivalent Isomers and Isobaric Substances Using Fast LC–ESI-MS–MS” by Katja Pihlainen et al. (Pihlainen)
> *New Psychoactive Compounds*
> 
> Also, of interest are the presence of new psychoactive compounds and analogues that GCMS testing may be incapable of identifying due to the novel nature of the compound.
> 
> “Identification of a new M-ALPHA analog and MDMA in an illegal health product” by Ji Hyun Lee et al. (Lee)
> 
> *Conclusion*
> 
> Although user tolerance is the most commonly accepted explanation for loss of effects in experienced MDMA users, product quality may also contribute to wide variation in user experience. The presence of undetected synthesis byproducts, inhibition of monoamine transporters, or substitution of an isobaric derivative may explain what is wrong with some MDMA today. In order to fully investigate the question and associated hypotheses, user samples would need to be analyzed with advanced lab techniques beyond simple GCMS imaging, and the results compared to subjective user reports. If you know of a researcher, university, or laboratory willing to assist with this research, please reach out to user indigoaura via the Bluelight harm reduction forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Works Cited​Aalberg, Laura et al. "Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Isobaric and Isomeric Substances Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine." _Journal of Chromatographic Science_ (2004): 464-469. Web.
> 
> Awad, Tamer et al. "Chromatographic and Mass Spectral Studies on Methoxy Methyl Methamphetamines Related to 3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine." _Journal of Chromatographic Science,_ (2007): 467-476. Web.
> 
> —. "GC–MS and GC–IRD Studies on the Ring Isomers of N-Methyl-2-Methoxyphenyl-3-Butanamines (MPBA) Related to 3,4-MDMA." _Journal of Chromatographic Science,_ (2011): 345-352. Web.
> 
> Awad, Tamer. "MASS SPECTRAL AND CHROMATOGRAPHIC STUDIES ON A SERIES OF REGIOISOMERS AND ISOBARIC DERIVATIVES RELATED TO METHYLENEDIOXYMETHAMPHETAMINES ." 15 December 2006. _Auburn University._ Web. 4 January 2021.
> 
> Belal, Tarek et al. "GC–MS studies on acylated derivatives of 3-methoxy-4-methyl- and 4-methoxy-3-methyl-phenethylamines: Regioisomers related to 3,4-MDMA." _Forensic Science International_ (2008): 61-82. Web.
> 
> Bonadio, Federica et al. "Optimization of HS-SPME/GC–MS analysis and its use in the profiling of illicit ecstasy tablets." _Forensic Science International_ (2009): 73–80. Web.
> 
> Clark, C. Randall. _Synthesis and Analytical Profiles for Regioisomeric and Isobaric Amines Related to MDMA, MDEA and MBDB: Differentiation of Drug and non-Drug Substances of Mass Spectral Equivalence_. Electronic. Auburn, Alabama: Department of Justice, 2011. Web.
> 
> Fierro, Inmaculada et al. "Regioisomers of 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine in clandestine ecstasy pills." _ICADTS 2007_. Seattle, 2007. Web.
> 
> Gallagher, Ryan et al. "Synthesis and impurity profiling of MDMA prepared from commonly available starting materials." _Forensic Science International_ (2012): 306-313. Web.
> 
> Hysek, Ce'dric et al. "Duloxetine Inhibits Effects of MDMA (‘‘Ecstasy’’) In Vitro and in Humans in a Randomized Placebo-Controlled Laboratory Study." _PLoS ONE_ (2012). Web.
> 
> Kranenburg, Ruben et al. "Distinguishing drug isomers in the forensic laboratory: GC–VUV in addition to GC–MS for orthogonal selectivity and the use of library match scores as a new source of information." _Forensic Science International_ (2019): 1-13. Web.
> 
> Kranenburg, Ruben F. et al. "Mass-Spectrometry-Based Identification of Synthetic Drug Isomers Using Infrared Ion Spectroscopy." _Analytical Chemistry_ (2020): 7282-7288. Web.
> 
> Lee, Ji Hyun et al. "Identification of a new M-ALPHA analog and MDMA in an illegal health product." _Forensic Science International_ (2020). Web.
> 
> Pifl, Christian et al. "Pharmacological Characterization of Ecstasy Synthesis Byproducts with Recombinant Human Monoamine Transporters." _THE JOURNAL OF PHARMACOLOGY AND EXPERIMENTAL THERAPEUTICS_ 314.1 (2005): 346-354. Web.
> 
> Pihlainen, Katja et al. "The Identification of 3,4-MDMA from Its Mass Equivalent Isomers and Isobaric Substances Using Fast LC–ESI-MS–MS." _Journal of Chromatographic Science,_ (2005): 94-97. Web.
> 
> Stojanovska, Natasha et al. "A review of impurity profiling and synthetic route of manufacture of methylamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, amphetamine, dimethylamphetamine and p-methoxyamphetamine." _Forensic Science International_ 224 (2013): 8-26. Web.
> 
> S'wist, M. et al. "Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA." _Forensic Science International _(2005): 100-111. Web.
> 
> —. "Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities." _Forensic Science International _(2005): 175-184. Web.
> 
> Yuk Ki Cheng, Jack et al. "Impurity profiling of ecstasy tablets seized in Hong Kong." _Forensic Science International_ (2006): 87-94. Web.


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## Jmoda

Wanted to share an anecdote.

One thing i noticed after trying a truly magic batch of magic-mdma....i noticeably had short term-memory impacts which were much more pronounced than i can recall a single experience giving me. It was as if i was back to my college days of rolling every 2-4 weeks and then after a few years, experiencing difficulties with name recall. Once i noticed this, post-college  thats when i started taking much longer breaks and only using 1-3 times a year of medium-mdma...during which time my memory seemed fine, but then after trying the magic, in an instant it seemed, these noticeable issues came back, albeit not as severe as it was in peak, but very clearly a noticeable huge step up, esp from just one go.

This took about 3 months to recover from, but has made me think about people talking about how oldschool product made people into "etards"....

Fast forward to about a week ago now and we took a modified borax combo (5mapb+4fma+4homet) by combining it with 6apb and a small mdma booster down the line. Great experience....but the main imortant point is that, after this latest experience, i dont have the noticeable name recall issues i saw after taking the magic mdma. 

Interestingly the two hangovers were so different. 
Magic mdma - amazing next day afterglow, zero problems eating. 
Modified borax combo+tiny med-mdma booster - light afterglow, could barely eat.

In some ways, this gives me hesitancy to keep trying the magic mdma...is what is making it so magic also just tearing my brain up?

I have to say, 5mapb+6apb are fantastic and i highly implore people to snag it while its available. Everyone was super happy with the experience...incredibly clean. Incredibly smooth. Even borax combo-ing it...its not completely mdma, music is huge, but seems to be missing a slight bit of the "blowing the roof off" ness of mdma, but....if the magic stuff is noticeably jacking my brain, then id gladly take the tradeoff.


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## TripSitterNZ

One of the things i notice about the purest mdma is that it gives me the lightest comedowns after such a massive peak experience while less pure mdma i still get that loving and magic not what people describe their meh is that i get horrendous comedowns and more jaw clenching whenever its due to so many bath salts out there over the years been added to the mdma aswell im not sure or just the impurities which are extra toxic.

While mdma abuse can destory your mental health and brain im a firm believer in recovery aswell during my peak use i did notice my cognitive decline was steep but after been clean for most of 2020 from mdma i have noticed a huge rebound in recovery of my ability to process information and recall memory again. During peak use at weekly i could not even remember peoples faces that i would meet regulars in the clubs  they all knew me but i was so fried i could only just piece together that i had meet them before.


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## Jmoda

TripSitterNZ said:


> One of the things i notice about the purest mdma is that it gives me the lightest comedowns after such a massive peak experience while less pure mdma i still get that loving and magic not what people describe their meh is that i get horrendous comedowns and more jaw clenching whenever its due to so many bath salts out there over the years been added to the mdma aswell im not sure or just the impurities which are extra toxic.
> 
> While mdma abuse can destory your mental health and brain im a firm believer in recovery aswell during my peak use i did notice my cognitive decline was steep but after been clean for most of 2020 from mdma i have noticed a huge rebound in recovery of my ability to process information and recall memory again. During peak use at weekly i could not even remember peoples faces that i would meet regulars in the clubs  they all knew me but i was so fried i could only just piece together that i had meet them before.


Some points on this...
Def agree. The magic stuff, the comedown is so smooth, dont know if you can really even call it a comedown, its like, still rolling to a soft landing.

The medium stuff still gets me the magic feeling too, its just that everytime, at the 2hr marker of taking it, there is this massive drop and you want to take more.

Jaw clenching for me has just not been an issue anymore...it seems like just something learned to avoid. Gum im sure helps.

Brain recovery i totally agree with. The brain is so powerful in healing itself, of course you do have to wonder if that ability will also decline with age, but my brain has definitely come a very long ways from the post college rolling period and hasnt negatively impacted my life per se...i mean who knows, maybe it had and my life should be better, but im happy with where i am and would likely make the tradeoff after the fact.

With respects to memory, i do wonder to what point you can attribute it to mdma use, vs just natural decline, vs the propensity to notice more because of the drug use somehow.

Anyhow. Just seems strange that the cleanest comedown product and cleanest feeling product can give the worst and most noticeable after effects on memory...


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## TripSitterNZ

There are also some folk who literally rolled themselves to mental retardation over a lifetime just have to look at hamilton morris episode where that chemist steve gill just look at his wife a lifetime of drug use and heavy mdma really did burn them out in the end.  Which is why i wanted to stop before i truly had no way back. Over 150 rolls in my lifetime addiction to mdma is a hellish drug to abuse like i did but it holds a special place and is important that the youth get access to high quality mdma as its a holy sacrament on par with any other psychedelic sacrament.


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## indigoaura

> With respects to memory, i do wonder to what point you can attribute it to mdma use, vs just natural decline, vs the propensity to notice more because of the drug use somehow.



I don't feel like I ever abused MDMA, although I certainly used it a lot, once a month for about a decade. I am a bit forgetful and spacey, but my biological sister is every bit as forgetful and spaced out as I am. She has lived a squeaky clean, Christian life with no drinking or drugs, but we both have this semi-ADD quality where we walk into a room and forget what we are doing and why we got up in the first place.

I would be inclined to attribute the short term memory deficits to the drug use if it wasn't for my sister having the exact same issues. It honestly seems like its just how we are wired. 

As for the comedowns...

It has been a long time since I had proper, magic MDMA, but I remember being wrecked on the comedown. This meh shit just gives me stomach issues and then I am fine. It is so weird.

Here is an oddity for you...gluten will exacerbate my short term memory issues to the point that I can barely communicate. It makes me so spaced out that I will stop making sense when I talk. I've been gluten free for over a decade now, and I feel like I have worse issues from eating gluten than eating drugs. Anyone who is struggling with feeling spacey or out of it ought to try a week or so gluten and yeast free and see what happens. It makes a huge difference.


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