# We are living in hell: we just don't realise it.



## dhcdavid

Whilst half-heartedly trying to get a handle on what David Lynch's 1977 film "Eraserhead" is all about, I turned to the user reviews on imdb.com and after reading several wildely differing and conflicting theories - some extraordinarily complimentary, some phenomenally derogatory - I found one review (by dr steve http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074486/reviews ) which essentially said that we should all stop trying to analyse this film and explain its "plot" because "Eraserhead" quite simply couldn't be analysed as it was a piece of art.

The review ended with this thread's title: *We are living in hell: we just don't realise it*, which simply struck me like a bolt of lightning and even if this idea was not the film reviewer's own, original intellectual achievement then *I* had certainly not heard it anywhere else and decided it merited some discussion on Bluelight!

(Just out of curiosity, has anyone come across this notion before and if so where?)

I would be fascinated to know some of what other folk in P & S think of this idea....not so much of "hell *on* earth" as "hell *is* (being) on earth".

Then surely if we held this concept to be true then we straight away have a handy explanation for ALL the misery which occurs on earth: be that human-perpertrated or "natural disasters"/ "acts of God"............. and being familiar with Christianity (and not unaware of the basic tenets of the other great [as in size] monotheistic religions Judaism and Islam), the "problem" of evil - and especially the "problem" of finding a way to "square the circle" which is that God is all powerful AND loving (anyone ever heard the lovely-sounding but intellectually vacuous statement "God is love" before?) yet at the same time God allows evil to exist on earth - is a *massive* intellectual stumbling block for any free-thinking individual seeking spiritual solace within organised religion. 

(Here assuming the term "organised religion" to refer to the "holy trinity" of Christianity, Islam and Judaism AS WELL as Hindu, Buddhism and Sikhhism - essentially the "state-sponsored" religions which I believe the majority of the earth's population either "belong to" or are at the very least raised in families and countries which adhere to some of the basic tenets of these main religions.)

SO, if we truly are living in hell but are simply unaware of the fact, at the very least does this concept not provide some relief? Insofar as it answers a massive yet essentially unanswerable question for maybe a few billion people: namely, why is suffering a seemingly inescapable part of the human condition?

Well, on initial examination, this thread's title does indeed seem to intellectually provide some relief to me with regards to the "problem" of evil: as for years I've been trying - and spectacularly failing - to square the intellectual circle which is that from as far back as I can remember I've been told by various "authority figures" that life is a beautiful gift, life is  a miracle, love is beautiful, God is love, we should strive to emulate the lives of the successful people we see on our TV screens and in glossy magazines who all seem so happy and content etc etc....but *THEN*, the majority of what I myself have discovered about life, "human nature" (whatever the fuck "human nature" actually is!) and the world in general has unfortunately emphasised the veracity of the exact polar opposites of those listed "teachings".

Evil and suffering seems to be everywhere: but please note that I'm not denying the contemporaneous existence of love and goodness; I'm merely stating my observation of what a phenomenal amount of bad shit seems to be "out there".......... 

If we accepted the idea that *"We are living in hell: we just don't realise it"* as a true statement about life, then does this not answer another of mankind's questions which is  almost constantly asked yet never answered in an intellectually satisfying manner: Why does "evil" exist?

OK, if you're still with me by this point then I really do thank you for taking the time to be with me whilst I grapple with an idea and I would be honoured and fascinated to know what you think of the thread's title statement and/or my initial response to it.


----------



## -=SS=-

I agree with the thread title, but not so much with the idea that this literally is hell as relating to any religious idea of such a place, or as an explanation relating to "God" or such. I came to the conclusion of the thread title myself at around the age of 18 (i'm mid-twenties now).. people call me cynical, boring, depressed, grumpy etc when i confront them about any one of the MANY reasons why our society sucks, but it's true.. our society does suck. Everything we do without exception is inverted, perverted, a counterfeit of what it should be. What is even more heartbraking is that we literally have the capacity within us to become something we can't even begin to imagine.. but what keeps this from arising is society itself, it damages us biologically from conception onwards. THAT is why this place is hell, because we can't reach our true potential and must wallow half-way whilst being forced to believe this is all there is/that we should just accept this corporate nightmare and stfu.


----------



## dhcdavid

-=SS=- said:


> we should just accept this corporate nightmare and stfu.



The quoted final words of your post resonnated so very strongly with me. Whenever I listen to politicans and so-called intellectuals these days I've noticed, despairingly, that suggesting any other system but capitalism might have something to offer is treated ALMOST UNIVERSALLY as blasphemy or heresy - a 21st Century equivalent of saying that the EARTH is flat.

I know that was only a small part of your post, -=SS=-, and I don't really want to derail this thread by moving onto the ills of capitalism and wankers', sorry, bankers' bonuses etc etc but when the Metropolitan Police ban people from demonstrating against capitalism/the financial industry around Canary Wharf or outside the Stock Exchange because apparently those spaces have been classified as PRIVATE PROPERTY (we're talking about spaces near buildings which are roads and thoroughfares - and since when are roads PRIVATE PROPERTY?) and folk are reduced to having to camp outside St. Paul's Cathedral (which to those unfamiliar with London's geography, is but a short distance from the financial CBD of London where buildings such as the Stock Exchange and the Bank of England are situated) because at least there they're not going to risk having their skulls smashed in by baton-wielding thugs or being tasered or pepper sprayed..........

Well, the constant message being communicated to the masses of Western democracies (anyone remember when "a Western democracy" was a compliment?) most certainly does seem to be: accept this corporate nightmare and shut the fuck up. SO well put -=SS=-.

I for one will not be in the least surprised if Satan himself soon reveals his true self to the World and we discover that he was behind Enron, runs the "big four" accountancy firms and employs Rupert Murdoch as his PR man.


----------



## YellowPolkaDotHalo

> Everything we do without exception is inverted, perverted, a counterfeit of what it should be. What is even more heartbraking is that we literally have the capacity within us to become something we can't even begin to imagine.. but what keeps this from arising is society itself, it damages us biologically from conception onwards.



Like a caterpillar dreaming of butterflyness and the rest of the caterpillars telling it to be content and stop dreaming of flying. Its delusional and impossible for a caterpillar.

I think David is seeing the counterfeit of a realm separated from God and starting to see or feel that God shaped hole.. its like an
agonising void in your being that nothing other than God can fill. Society will keep trying to direct your attention away from God but if you ache youll keep looking. ' Seek with all your heart' 

I wonder if youve looked at Revelations David? It prophesizes a complete collapse of the economic system in the end..


----------



## -=SS=-

dhcdavid said:


> Whenever I listen to politicans and so-called intellectuals these days I've noticed, despairingly, that suggesting any other system but capitalism might have something to offer is treated ALMOST UNIVERSALLY as blasphemy or heresy - a 21st Century equivalent of saying that the EARTH is flat.


 
Doesn't just apply to political/governmental/economic systems either.. it applies to ontological systems too. This is why the establishment has tried so hard to push under the rug (eradicate) as many indigenous people's as they possibly can, those who construct reality in a different way, because if the people of the capitalist world got wind that there is another way of being the rulers would be totally fucked! They need our slavery to survive. They are parasites.


----------



## L2R

IF this place was some kind of mass unreality, i'd suggest it is more likely a limbo than a hell. everyone seems to be waiting for something which never comes. 

i don't think you need the hell explanation to make sense of suffering, which along with frank pain can be written off as chosen mental states. of course we'd prefer not to feel these things, but we are so conditioned to, it's incredibly difficult to resist. think about the root of suffering, a desire. what use is a desire for something not within your reach? this could be a fortune, or this could be food. even if your situation is life threatening, suffering only comes about with a refusal of acceptance on your part.

you can't compare suffering. it is possible a spoilt kid not getting the latest phone suffers greater than a starving child, although the injustice difference is great and obvious. it comes down to individual case by case.

so, instead of trying to find sense in suffering if God is all loving, ask what is the source of _your_ suffering, and is it really constructive to dwell or even spend any time or emotion on it? can you do anything about it? if not, then forget it. If so, then become active.

even more importantly, what suffering do you cause (even accidently)? what can you do to reduce this for others?


----------



## HoneyRoastedPeanut

I had a similar realization a couple of years ago in the vein of what L2R is saying. Not being Christian, or anything for that matter (wasn't raised with religion), the closest analogy I could find was the Eastern concept of _samsara_, or the cycle of suffering (birth, death, reincarnation) from which we try to escape into _nirvana_. Essentially, we are all trapped in our own personal, psychological _samsara_, in which we repeat bad habits while only hoping and expecting to change; to escape we must realize this, and only then can we change our world by truly acting to change ourselves.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a physical "reality", a la Heaven and Hell, but rather that we bring our negative thoughts into physical manifestation through attitude and action (or inaction). The world is terrible because most everyone is miserable and projects this attitude out into their environment. Despite all our cultural advances, the majority of people are still ignorant of the bigger picture. 

What only makes it worse is that we have made survival a time-consuming toil for ourselves (wage slavery) in the interest of feigning godhood, culturally driven to fill the endless void of the ego. Basically all tribal cultures, who "worked" an average of three to five hours a day to meet their survival needs, agree that our mode of subsistence leaves us in disharmony with our environment; thus, we constantly fight nature for our scraps of bread, with comparatively little time to think and reach the aforementioned philosophical conclusions. I believe this is why Buddhism was founded, as a reaction to preserve the spiritual cult of a way of life that was rapidly being driven to extinction.


----------



## B9

> The world is terrible because most everyone is miserable and projects this attitude out into their environment.




Not sure if most people are miserable - I think most people are miserable at some point - what you project certainly may affect how your environment will treat you & it may not - the trick lies in not expecting & it's a hard trick to pull off


----------



## HoneyRoastedPeanut

I agree, I consider most people "miserable" because we are raised with certain expectations, and are easily frustrated when life doesn't meet said expectations. Culture is all about theoretically bringing said expectations into reality, which is where we get into conflict with ourselves and our surroundings, by assuming that our culture goals are "right", and everything else is "wrong". 

But yes, humility and lack of expectation is hard to pull off, and is usually the best approach. Maybe this is why it's prioritized over individualism in Eastern cultures.


----------



## L2R

^don't forget, that desire and misery is cultural. there HAVE been peoples living on this earth without it, and in sustainable harmony with nature. insatiable greed is not a necessary aspect of our species.


----------



## HoneyRoastedPeanut

ITT: we solve all of life's moral dilemmas 

Pats on the back all around!


----------



## fridgebuzz

> why is suffering a seemingly inescapable part of the human condition? ....Evil and suffering seems to be everywhere: but please note that I'm not denying the contemporaneous existence of love and goodness; I'm merely stating my observation of what a phenomenal amount of bad shit seems to be "out there"..........



Huh? I don't get it. Not seeing it that way from here.


----------



## sssssssssss

But sometimes I'm in heaven.


----------



## whynaught

^That is only an illusion so you have paradise to compare hell to.


----------



## sssssssssss

youre right, only someone from hell would come up with that statement.


----------



## dhcdavid

fridgebuzz said:


> Huh? I don't get it. Not seeing it that way from here.



FBlease note that although your quotation of some words of mine from the first post in this thread contained words which indicated how great I believed the level of suffering out here in the world is; it also stated quite clearly that I wasnt' saying that love wasn't out there either. Merely that "suffering" seemed to be winning the battle for the human condition.

But hey, I 'm not sure how much I agree with that and it was precisely because of such intellectual grey areas that I came up with such a rhetorical type of question for a thread here in P &S.


----------



## fieryslash

This thought has crossed my mind once before.  It is very possible that we are in Hell because there are so many problems and stuff that we don't yet understand.  It is the fact that human beings like me and you don't want to discuss that kind to other people because it results in disorder and chaos which is already present in the world.  The apocalypse or the contact of extraterrestrial aliens is what excites us because it produces feelings of curiosity and bewilderment which is basically inborn in all of us from the beginning of life when we are still infants.  I have been having thoughts of the origin of mankind and the future of it for the past few years and it never hurts to ask yourself these kinds of questions.  Here's a thought: What if the entire race of humanity knew deep down inside that they are living in some kind of universe that represents Hell in a different way than what we already perceive Hell to be like.  God damned us all with his Son and all the angels and holy entities that might exist up there in Heaven for us, dwellers of Hell to be cast into this dimension forever and for eternity, similar to Heaven.  I like to think of it as the glass is half full if we truly were living in Hell because there are still things in Earth that are worth fighting for like love, peace, happiness, beliefs and culture that define the very existence of mankind and its struggle to prosper till the end of time. Faith will lead us back into the Kingdom of God if only we accept Jesus for his act of forgiving us for sinning and so forth. My 2 cents.


----------



## Jblazingphoenix100

I was talking about this in the pub the other day - that heaven and hell as above and below concepts are ridiculous.

We are indeed living in hell, and heaven.

THis world is what you make of it - far too many people think the grass is greener on the other side - the other side of hte country, the other side of the world, outer space, and even "heaven".

How ludicrous - if this world we live in is a hell, then why not strive to make it as heavenly as possible considering we are all here, and it seems we're stuck that way for a while?!

There's good and bad happening on this planet, and heaven and hell happen on a local, national and international scale, yet we look elsewhere...for "something more" than ourselves.

I see this as just not taking responsibility for our actions, and not seeing our influence on our environment, as we don't want to accept full autonomy, because that would just be far too scary.

We are living in hell because, as a species, we are not evolving - we are stagnating.

They say we only use 10-15%  of our brain's capacities.

If we strived to unleash more (god forbid, all) of that potential, we could make this world a heaven, and far less of a hell, and outer space woulbe be the last thing on our mind's until this world we lived in was perfect, and we truly had reason to explore what's "out there" as curiousities would then NEED to be satisfied.

But right here, right now we need to change our ways, and take care of our planet, and brethren, because the hell fire is coming - it is the Age of Aquarius.

THere was a great flood/ice age before, and everything moves in cycles, so it's moving towards time for fire - the sun, killing life on earth through holes in the atmosphere and ozone layer.


----------



## ziggo

Yea dude the sun is going to shine so bright it'll puff out all the evil and negativity infecting our planet like a virus.


----------



## sssssssssss

could hell be considered the contraction of the universe instead of the expansion? like cons and rods darting towards the surface of the eye then digressing back.


----------



## panic in paradise

sssssssssss said:


> could hell be considered the contraction of the universe instead of the expansion? like cons and rods darting towards the surface of the eye then digressing back.



yes it could

and when the light-rods enter the eye-ball. their new form becomes such a shock, that the previous light-form is forgotten, then displaced with denial to prevent further shock from the realization. what the light-rods now are, is what the _viewer_ perceives them as. they will leave the game of the viewers eye, but, the blink to come of enough darkness, _pealing back the veil of reality_, the new-true light can be blinding, burning&healing, or simply unseen - unseen for any multitude of reasons, but if unseen upon entering a darkness again in light-rod form, the light-rod will be absorb of its light, so it will seek out again the comfort of the false light of perception. 


in the blink of an eye.
*;-)*


----------



## sssssssssss

soooo could hell be considered experiencing? such that experiencing is synonymous to suffering? Life may not have existed during the creation of the universe, but developed during its destruction. After all, we were created in its image.


----------



## panic in paradise

> sssssssssss
> 
> soooo could hell be considered experiencing? such that experiencing is synonymous to suffering? Life may not have existed during the creation of the universe, but developed during its destruction. After all, we were created in its image.



mmm~no;-)
_experiencing_ is liberation and the acquiring of knowledge.
_learning_ is retaining that knowledge learned
_acting_ is doing with knowledge
_concluding_ is the sum of the prior three
wisdom is the fifth 


what life may not of existed -
you mean life forms?
*

what is tangible life to an animated life form?

what is the lack of this to an animated life form?*



how often does your perception of your own and others life change ~ ?
or your idea of, lets just say; love, art, wealth and perfection?



we are living in a "hell", _to each his own_, and we are not alone in this place of infinite...so our idea might be nothing in comparison, or far worse...!




can you imagine if, the "devil" was a fallen angel most adored by God, not just fallen but intentionally came here and created us(through what ever means of evolution etc) to prove to his father, as most children do, his own superiority or equivalent, and so when this happened we were given all this beauty to adore, as long as we might like to, and many many other things. being no fool this devil, imagine the _*colossal*_ promise of heaven through religion, a promise based on, _deceit_.

the real thing is there, not here, but there, with you.


_they_ know this, and benefit in more ways then i care to think of.

*
experience life to the most reasonable extent.find what you need, and move on.*


----------



## sssssssssss

I would argue that to live/experience is to suffer. The universe, nor anything in it is perfect nor complete. It is a product of statistical errors and the unlikely events of interactions between random variables and therefore knowledge is based on assumption rather than absolute truth. Because our environment is consistently changing, the universe is subject to impermanence and the things we strive for are not lasting. We will suffer through the losses of these transient ideas. Although we are made up with the same laws governing the universe, the development of self causes attachment to such ideas inevitable. Even if one can overcome their ego, the ignorance of why we are attached to such transient ideas flooded their path causing frustration of a lack of complete understanding of himself. 

And therefore a life form is one that endures suffering or lack of completeness while realizing losses. 
Surviving is making use of one's suffering. 

I would also argue that we are all alone. We were born alone and we will die alone. It's your responsibility to find peace in such a concept.


----------



## panic in paradise

^^i think that we agree - i am stating suffering as pain psychological and physical and emotional.

hell in this case, would be experiencing and suffering with-out realizing anything to better oneself, so, the same suffering is repeated.

where as heaven, would be suffering w/ a realization from the experience, that allows for the bettering of oneself.


and so, do we still suffer?
or, with that much heaven realized, is the suffering still there, but not as effective as before?


and then after all your suffering from the pain.wants of your body, and your ego/secular wants are seen for what they truly are after your experiences...
there just isnt much left here for you here, 
and that is perfectly fine by this point, otherwise,


it wouldnt be.


----------



## Sappy_6794

I dont think anyone truly knows what heaven and hell (if they exist) are. But to say this is hell, its plausible. I sorta believe in reincarnation. Like if you do bad shit, youre recycled here to be better until you reach heaven. If youre bad, you have to stay longer, but if youre good, you get cycled higher and higher until you finally understand what life is and reach heaven or nirvana. Or maybe this is hell, and we just have been down here since we sinned and got sent here and we forgot and keep forgetting and believe that theres a heaven that we can reach one day but its not true. I mean, i have so many thoughts that I just try to do good and see where that gets me. But if the christian heaven and hell exist, then im on my fucking way to hell and id rather be there.


Either way, heaven cant exist without hell. There always has to be an exact opposite. So which is which and where?


----------



## J.Wallace

sssssssssss said:


> And therefore a life form is one that endures suffering or lack of completeness while realizing losses.
> Surviving is making use of one's suffering.
> 
> I would also argue that we are all alone. We were born alone and we will die alone. It's your responsibility to find peace in such a concept.



I think reality is about perception. It can go either way, you can view life as a living nightmare or a slice of heaven. Depends on what that person has experienced in his life so far, since that is what determines how someone views their world. 

It's too easy to look at everything in a negative way, you gotta constantly focus on the positives. I like to think that we naturally tend to focus on things anyway, so why not focus that into something positive rather than negative? It saves a lot of frustration and wasted effort.


----------



## panic in paradise

Sappy_6794 said:


> I dont think anyone truly knows what heaven and hell (if they exist) are. But to say this is hell, its plausible. I sorta believe in reincarnation. Like if you do bad shit, youre recycled here to be better until you reach heaven. If youre bad, you have to stay longer, but if youre good, you get cycled higher and higher until you finally understand what life is and reach heaven or nirvana. Or maybe this is hell, and we just have been down here since we sinned and got sent here and we forgot and keep forgetting and believe that theres a heaven that we can reach one day but its not true. I mean, i have so many thoughts that I just try to do good and see where that gets me. But if the christian heaven and hell exist, then im on my fucking way to hell and id rather be there.
> 
> 
> Either way, heaven cant exist without hell. There always has to be an exact opposite. So which is which and where?



*maybe *
_there isnt an exact opposite in reality_
everything is from the same source, the devils game is to generate ego, a polarity for there to be a dependency on a negative, or positive charge(addiction, obsession, co-dependencies) we are Direct Current, not Alternating...heheh

*if* the devil left god because he was gods favorite, it only makes sense he did because he didnt want to always only be the "favorite" "favored" one, _he wanted to prove himself_ -- creating race of polar-functioning-minds, in a world of spiraling opposites, a nemesis, an AC, numbers(_one plus another_), etc etc. vanilla sundays with chocolate syrup sprinkles nuts banana-slices and a cherry on top, of a cone in a dish in a bowl.


*it takes two to tango...but it takes only one to compose, perform, and hear a tune.*


----------



## Sappy_6794

well thats true, i guess i meant to say opposite. Didnt the devil leave because he didnt want to serve humans because they were lower than him in his thoughts? So obviously god was the one who made him have the ability to choose what he wanted and if gods all knowing, he knew that the minute he made lucifer, that lucifer was going to deviate from everyone else. Which also makes me think that despite all the evil stuff, he's pretty awesome. Also, that was sorta deviating from the topic, but where did this heaven and hell talk get started from? I mean, who was the first to think there was these places? Why do we not just die and thats it?


----------



## panic in paradise

^*^*heheh, yeah he is pretty awesome^



> Didnt the devil leave because he didnt want to serve humans because they were lower than him in his thoughts?


personally, i dont buy that..

the Orthodox Christians, they have evening Vespers, prayers to the evening/morning star, Venus.


> “The lowest of the five wandering stars, and the one nearest the earth, is the planet of Venus, which is called Φωσϕόρος (Phosphoros –jw) in Greek, and Lucifer in Latin, …it completes its course in a year, traversing the zodiac both latitudinally and longitudinally, as is also done by the planets above it, and on whichever side of the sun it is, it never departs more than two signs’ distance from it. (21) This constancy, then, among the stars, this marked agreement of times through the whole of eternity, though the movements are so various, I cannot understand as existing without mind and reason and forethought, and since we find that these qualities are possessed by the heavenly bodies, we cannot but assign to those bodies themselves their place among the number of divine beings.” (De Natura Deorum, 2:20-21)


- The Nature of the Gods




> Vesper, the Latin name for "Evening Star" or Venus, is a proposed NASA Discovery-class mission that would increase our knowledge of what the planet's atmosphere is made of and how it changes. Understanding the atmosphere of Venus will help scientists learn how a world that might have been a tropical Eden became instead a close approximation of Hell.


:: NASA ::


----------



## Sappy_6794

I dont really buy anything that the christians produce : D I didnt know the orthodox ones pray to Venus, why so?


----------



## panic in paradise

because, it is right...


----------



## Sappy_6794

uh huuuhhh


----------



## panic in paradise

hahah


they do partially for the reasons i listed above.
they worship no idol but have respect for many religious figures form the East and the West.


IDK, is whats right to me as far as christianity, but,  what is left for me is me, myself, and *I*.


----------



## sssssssssss

J.Wallace said:


> It's too easy to look at everything in a negative way, you gotta constantly focus on the positives. I like to think that we naturally tend to focus on things anyway, so why not focus that into something positive rather than negative? It saves a lot of frustration and wasted effort.



Its not negative to me; I'm sorry you take it as such.
I find universal incompleteness and suffrage quite a relief.


----------



## panic in paradise

sssssssssss said:


> Its not negative to me; I'm sorry you take it as such.
> I find universal incompleteness and suffrage quite a relief.



yeah, facing your sufferings, is a good idea...
only,
it can be easy to relate these sufferings as a part of your sum identity...


----------



## L2R

relating back to the "is this hell?" question, several years ago i posted something along the lines of what if everyone had died in some massive and sudden catastophe and we're just wandering in the afterlife without a clue of the fact that we're all dead, and someone smarter than i posted something like, "what difference does it make even if it were so?".

so, even if this were hell, what difference does it make to your daily existence?


----------



## panic in paradise

> *L2R*
> so, even if this were hell, what difference does it make to your daily existence?



well, quiet simply, in order to create a better tomorrow for the next poor-soul.


???
i think so...


----------



## L2R

i'unno... praps if i knew this were hell, i might recycle more.... or is that less ?


----------



## panic in paradise

L2R said:


> i'unno... praps if i knew this were hell, i might recycle more.... or is that less ?


 
in that case, maybe use less of what needs to be recycled - recycling stuff only uses, and takes more natural resources.


----------



## panic in paradise

Sappy_6794 said:


> I dont really buy anything that the christians produce : D I didnt know the orthodox ones pray to Venus, why so?


 
one more try -

because of the reasons i mentioned above, if you understand how Venus is the planet of love and affection, who is so close to earth and so bright, along with Jupiter(who is the intellect and liberator) in the night sky, they are the brightest at evening and dawn...Lucifer is a combination of these. the light-bringer, the dark-side also, the only other of everything that there is - which is all we have here.


there is hardly any recognition of light, in pure light all the time, so the darkness must learn to be appreciated, and made transparent...there are many famous quotes that start from here. the light really is insignificant, if the dark never has been. 


to do see the light and love in everything, is to understand and to accept as nature the polar opposite that makes up out bodies mind and environment. is to recognize the likely God if any of this earth, Sophia is mother earth, Lucifer is who sustains _her_ life with the elements. this does not sustain us, only our bodies, to see this at Face value, is to see the initial source to the creator who reflects the light of God, but only the darkness of our lives, each as individuals, see past that, see the source of life, love and light - the creator God whom Lucifer wishes to emulate, if anything only to be further appreciated by God as worthy of Ascending once again ;-) from his previous Descent...
_*a deal, and a match set and made in heaven*_







Tori Amos - Father Lucifer (Original)


----------



## YellowPolkaDotHalo

I think if you suggested to an Orthodox Christian that they prayed to the Morning Star meaning Lucifer their jaws would drop open. 
Of all the Christian sects Orthodoxy is the most traditional. There is nothing in either the bible or their tradition to support that view PIP. Its a new age interpretation of 2 or 3 verses.


----------



## panic in paradise

... You are certain?

I am too...

i am also suggesting, that they dont worship, but do celebrate and SING to SoPHia  *


See* Vespers* AKA Vespertine, as I, mentioned previously.


----------



## panic in paradise

"First star I see tonight, I wish I may, I wish I might."

Fundamental
Morning/Evening Star.
*meaning Venus*
you are distorting what i have said.


The Sun rises in the East with Venus, and sets in the West with Jupiter ~
Both of these are the first stars visible every night, and the last every morning.

what i am saying is original.
and ill even say that i am against the New Age Movement.

*To me, "new age", is only further division....what perpetuates the duality and makes singularity, oneness amongst all that much more difficult to realize.*



One love One life One light



if you suggested what you said to an Orthodox Christian,
who understands deeply the fundamentals of their-own faith, 
they would say that it is all about you,
and finding your way, that's all.
no they do not worship icons, what i have said explains why in~part. same for myself.

and that is true.

______________________
sorry for the slop, my computer and phone are busted..._

    2 Peter 1:19: “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:”

    Revelation 22:16: “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

Isaiah 14:12-15
 (HCSB)

   '"12 Shining morning star, (A) [a]
    how you have fallen from the heavens! (B)
    You destroyer of nations,
    you have been cut down to the ground.

    13 You said to yourself:
    "I will ascend to the heavens; (C)
    I will set up my throne
    above the stars of God. (D)
    I will sit on the mount of the [gods'] assembly,
    in the remotest parts of the North. (E) *

    14 I will ascend above the highest clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High."

    15 But you will be brought down to Sheol
    into the deepest regions of the Pit."*


----------



## YellowPolkaDotHalo

The Day Star of Peter is not the Morning Star it symbolises Jesus and his rising like a star in our souls. Light in the darkness.

The last verses are about Nebuchadnezzar and Satan not Jesus.

Satan is referred to as 'Shining one'.. He shines.. theres no  adoration in his shine.. Its pride and arrogance he wants worship.
He also masquerades as an 'angel of light'.. if you see him you would think he was the most exquisite thing you have ever seen..
something godlike.




> if you suggested what you said to an Orthodox Christian,
> who understands deeply the fundamentals of their-own faith,
> they would say* that it is all about you,*
> and finding your way, that's all.



Could you clarify what you mean by this paragraph ^. The Orthodox Christians would say that its *all about God *and our relationship with Him.. that is a fundamental of Christianity whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant etc.

 I think I know where youre at though. I hope you like this star mandala.. I love it  It seems to have everything in it.


----------



## panic in paradise

YellowPolkaDotHalo said:


> The Day Star of Peter is not the Morning Star it symbolises Jesus and his rising like a star in our souls. Light in the darkness.
> 
> The last verses are about Nebuchadnezzar and Satan not Jesus.
> 
> Satan is referred to as 'Shining one'.. He shines.. theres no  adoration in his shine.. Its pride and arrogance he wants worship.
> He also masquerades as an 'angel of light'.. if you see him you would think he was the most exquisite thing you have ever seen..
> something godlike.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Could you clarify what you mean by this paragraph ^. The Orthodox Christians would say that its *all about God *and our relationship with Him.. that is a fundamental of Christianity whether Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant



Peter I only made reference to in response to your post, the rest of what I had posted originally was, in part, some of what I was able to gather in response to the OP. I'm not vey familiar with Peter.


Another way to say what I mean could be - 
We can apply ourselves to adopt or adhere to certain principals in order to realize God in our  daily-lives,
though hopefully then what comes, so does the realization of how God is all, and so only  Gods work is 
to be done.

Our talents and personal abilities, are so special because they are what enables our Spirit to feel that connection  .
;-)the next time you do what you feel you do especially well, do so with the of your God,
from the source of that spirit, take a few minutes to allow a connection to happen ~
& then trust fully what is expressed only to be from the most pure source of you, 
the most purely refined pollen of the universe, and from with-in and beyond there...


----------



## verandastreet

???


----------



## Xorkoth

I think life just IS.  It contains positive and negative elements.  It's the journey we're on.  I've had periods of my life that were hell, but I've had a lot of incredible beauty and happiness also.  Right now for example is a very high point for me.  As I go through my days, the vast majority of what I experience is profoundly _good_.  I had to work to get here though.  I don't think we're here to suffer.  I think that while we're here, we will experience suffering at times, every one of us, and it's possible to experience little _but_ suffering.  But that's not a prerequisite for life.  There's always light in the darkness if you look for it.

For me it's largely a matter of perspective.  Even in these intense and often dark times, I find a lot of happiness and joy.  Because I choose to see it and accept it, and I choose to refuse the darkness when I can.  Our society is sick, to be sure, but we don't have to accept that sickness for ourselves.


----------



## Foreigner

Because Christianity has spread far and wide, "Lucifer" may have become the placeholder for any number of local deities. Depending where you are in the world, the qualities ascribed to Lucifer may be different, based on historical deities being replaced as the almighty evil Lucifer. 

As for the OP... heaven and hell are dualistic perspectives of consciousness. The truth is that we're living in neither.


----------



## runci1

We are living in hell: we just don't realise it

As much as the statement is powerful I have to fault it on being completely pessimistic. I do think there is an interesting phenomenon which the statement sheds light on. To understand this best we can use one of the oldest biblical stories: Adam and Eve. In the story they were promised some form of greatness by eating the fruit and eventually curiosity got the better. What they found was, however, after eating the fruit they did not become like the gods, they were already living as them. This perfectly presents loss of innocence throughout our lives, as babies the world is amazing but as we gradually lose our innocence and strive to lose our innocence we realise that the world was a nicer place before we ate the fruit. But it is only after we have made this jump that we realise the beauty we left behind. We do not start off by living in hell but as we gain experience and knowledge and go through life the end point can easily seem like hell when compared to the innocence of a child. We should not lose hope though, just because our innocence leaves us does not mean we cannot appreciate things in the same way. How do we achieve this? We achieve it through new experience, smelling, touching, seeing new things, going to new places and reclaiming the wonder of a child. This comparative hell can be broken down through constantly seeking to have new experiences, this is the only way we can live a fulfilled life.


----------



## Marie Had Wings

The Judeo-Christian idea of a supposed 'hell' is laughable.

Anybody with a fully functioning brain capable of coherent critical thought, would realise on their own terms that the concept of burning for eternity for committing sins, is simply a cruel joke played on us by the people of old.

I would like to understand how you can possibly experience pain and suffering without the use of neurons, nerves, and whatnot.

Unless hell is in fact some sort of ever-lasting horrible trip we can't escape from.
In which case, the statement 'we are living in hell and don't realise it', would be correct.


----------



## Xorkoth

runci1 said:


> We are living in hell: we just don't realise it
> 
> As much as the statement is powerful I have to fault it on being completely pessimistic. I do think there is an interesting phenomenon which the statement sheds light on. To understand this best we can use one of the oldest biblical stories: Adam and Eve. In the story they were promised some form of greatness by eating the fruit and eventually curiosity got the better. What they found was, however, after eating the fruit they did not become like the gods, they were already living as them. This perfectly presents loss of innocence throughout our lives, as babies the world is amazing but as we gradually lose our innocence and strive to lose our innocence we realise that the world was a nicer place before we ate the fruit. But it is only after we have made this jump that we realise the beauty we left behind. We do not start off by living in hell but as we gain experience and knowledge and go through life the end point can easily seem like hell when compared to the innocence of a child. We should not lose hope though, just because our innocence leaves us does not mean we cannot appreciate things in the same way. How do we achieve this? We achieve it through new experience, smelling, touching, seeing new things, going to new places and reclaiming the wonder of a child. This comparative hell can be broken down through constantly seeking to have new experiences, this is the only way we can live a fulfilled life.



Great post, I concur.


----------



## Philosoraptor

Eh I'm pretty damn happy. Thanks though OPie.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

*  If we accepted the idea that "We are living in hell: we just don't realise it" as a true statement about life, then does this not answer another of mankind's questions which is almost constantly asked yet never answered in an intellectually satisfying manner: Why does "evil" exist? *

OP we are certainly living in a kind of hell but IMO there is a real/scientific answer as to why evil exists.  I refer you to the works of Ernest Becker. Denial of Death and Escape from Evil.  Also you can Google Terror Management Theory. (TMT theory even provides scientific proofs)

I have found in many years of sharing this that almost no one wants to know.


----------



## Nixiam

Be happy be healthy. I don't condone illicit drug use


----------



## AStateOfUnknowing

I'm surprised this thread doesn't get more traffic, it's one of the  first that comes up on a Google search for "you're actually in hell".   Most of the rest are blog articles that make assumptive conjecture. I  think it's a terribly important question, one that actually brings some  obscure level of comfort to mind because it finally puts to rest the  questions that have plagued me since birth.

A side thought, sort of...

I  wanted to buy an extra piece of gym equipment today, a single 75lb  dumbbell for doing overhead dumbbell pullovers, which is on sale $24  lower ($75-$51) up until today when the sale ends at a local sporting  goods store. I thought, I wonder if I can attain the funds purely from  junk in the house I want to get rid of, or things I've already done. 

So  I looked out online, and it turned out that I had $40 in unpaid monies  in a Turbosquid account for some 3D models I made from over 6 years ago,  and about $19 in Ad Revenues from UnityAds from some video games I  made, but that is... of course... unpaid until your UnityAds account  reaches $100 in Ad Revenues. 

So there's a $40 boost if I want it, just not quite that $51 that I would "need" TODAY before the sale ends.

Isn't that kind of just like "life?"

I  remember at the times I did those things people gave me ideas like...  Oh yeah be a 3D modeler it'll get you extra cash, be a mobile game  developer just look at all these mobile game devs who make millions. I  learned both, it took quite a while btw, on the order of years on the side of my regular work as a business app programmer.

The "word of mouth"  marketing works great, in favor of those more experienced in marketing,  not so much for me a gamedev/gfx artist. Notice how it also took years  long after the sense of "need" for anything to develop. Now I don't  really care. 

That's kind of the whole point I'm making. In hell, you get the things  you need when you don't care anymore, when they don't really benefit you  like they would have when there was SO MUCH emotional enthusiasm wrapped up in  the ideals that were brought to mind of everything happening so  wonderfully at the right time. 

It's kind of all designed to get you excited, and then dash your hopes. Then when you're not expecting it, you get a minor reward for that thing you wanted, way after the fact when it's unimportant, but you have to be thankful for the "reward" anyway, because you're an ungrateful prick otherwise, even if that reward is having your long since dead severed penis reattached long after you've adapted to living without one and chosen a life of celibacy.

Do this kind of dance enough times, and you realize that it has become SYSTEMIC in nature, just expressed in different scenarios and ways. That's important to seeing PATTERNS emerging in both events and people.

When you're doing creative hobby work  artistically, you'll be lambasted by people calling you a sellout for  wanting any monetary compensation for your efforts, you should do it  according to them because you're "naturally motivated to", but then you get older and  realize that the clock is ticking, people depend on you for survival,  you depend on you for survival, you can't simply expend copious amounts  of time doing things that aren't monetarily fruitful, and yet, in doing  things that ARE considered monetarily fruitful by the mass of society you'll find yourself either bored  out of your skull and ready to jump off a bridge (i.e. reading reports and creating TPS reports), or you'll be forced  into doing smarmy things for cash that may make you want to take 20  showers a day (i.e. being a maker of cringy Youtube videos for profit for things like "how to's" and "reviews" / opinions).

Crickets...

For the sake of anticipating a possible response.  Yes, of course I realize I'm privileged to even be in a place where sales inconveniently  happen when I'm not monetarily prepared for them, and that I'm not  starving in a third world country like Haiti. Sure, we're talking about  relative levels of abuse here though, not absolute. Hell finds a way to  abuse you at EVERY level. I'm not complaining necessarily about my particular level of hell, though it may seem that way, I'm simply adapted and accustomed to my level of hell, within a certain means of paradoxical uncertainty.

(to quote Samuel Jackson on Jackie Brown, "I can't rely on Melanie, but I can rely on Melanie to be Melanie.")

I can envision  myself "enjoying" a radioactive day on the beach in a hazmat suit as the  last survivor on a hellish earth, still pining over love and  friendships lost, things I wish I'd done or not done. I can't get out of  the hazmat suit to enjoy the waves of the ocean, but there it is, in  plain view, on sandy beaches full of dangerous shards of glass that you  can cut your feet on while you're dying of radiation poisoning if you  take that sweaty hazmat suit off.

That my "friends" is an  illustration of the "tight rope" of hell. I don't think I can  artistically express it in words much clearer than that. The tight rope  is analogous to so many situations in life. There's some leftover  noodles with chicken and beef in the fridge, but you don't have an ounce  of soy sauce in the whole house. It tastes absolutely horrible without  the soy, but you're supposed to feel shame for not already being happily  content to enjoy your bland soy-less noodles.

I've been doing  this dance for a very long time, and I'm tired, obviously, or I wouldn't  be able to observe and convey such things.

The thing that sets me apart from the rest, is of course also the very thing that will set you to inherently hate me.

I was born with extrasensory perception, and not in a good way. (awkward moment, to be fair)

I  have a keen sense of knowing when I'm being hunted by something outside  of our "realm" of existence. When you feel the presence of something  purely evil staring at you, when you feel colors start to fade into a  depressing haze, like something out of a lifeless modern art museum, you  get the first inklings of an idea that you're not purely alone in the  world. I'm expressing my childhood up through 10 years old. Then it  "went away." 

It went away for a good 20 years, and now it's back  on a daily basis. The doctors tried pills/therapy, none of those  actually did anything positive at all. I don't see hallucinations, but I  experience body takeovers, in my same conscious mind, I even have  conversations with this spiritual entity. It's written messages to me  that are uniquely confusing in nature. It may at one time use my head to  write in cursive, "Jesus Loves You", and then 2 seconds later write,  "God Hates You (my full name) False Prophet." This goes on usually on a  nightly basis, usually when I'm driving, but sometimes in other isolated  situations. It also took the woman of my dreams away (that's your cue to use that as a means to attack me because attachments run deep, which of course exposes a thing or two about you), that's a whole  story in itself, and made my life hell in many other ways. Tons of nasty  things, and instead of feeling horribly emotionally driven, most of the  time now I just see it as "same ol' same ol'" in this environment. 

I  have no real attachments to people, or anything much going on here,  except for that small fact that I can't seem to die.

I'm quite sure at this point that one of a few possibilities exist:
1) I'm in hell, I must have done something horribly bad to get here. It's even more stressful to not know what that thing was.
2) Perhaps I'm in a computer simulation of some sort, maybe I was captured before this life and put into it. 
3) Heaven and hell are some kind of fluid state.
4)  V2K/Electromagnetic blah blah, I don't have enough faith in the  competency of our government to believe in their technological  capability to do such things, and why I would even be a candidate for  selection in such a program (which defaults among conspiracy theorist  crowds to: "they don't need a reason to select you")
5) I'm part of a spiritual war.

My  views usually toggle somewhere in the mix of these major viewpoints,  among others that don't come to mind currently, on a continuing basis.

Btw,  yes of course capitalism is flawed. That's the whole thing. You're in a  world where EVERY system of government is inherently flawed in some  extreme use case. Even a technocracy that utilizes some adaptive  government control system that tailors to the strengths of every  governmental system would likely have some potentially harsh outcomes at  times that would be barely adaptable for human beings to survive.

That's  kind of the point. You're constantly DISTRACTED here by the thinking of  ontology, systems of government, and so on. You'll run in circles,  doing things that seem to matter for a time, and you'll be just out of  reach of the proverbial mountains you want to climb.

I don't even  post things like this to get agreement out of people. I do it just to  see what your psychological reaction is to my stating the "truth",  whatever that is, from my viewpoint. Obviously, it makes the militant  atheists pissed when I say things like yes I've had spiritual encounters  since I was born, and I have yet to see one that I've truly deemed as  friendly, I go through the same "up and down" cycles as everyone else.  Maybe I'm brought to having $0.02 in my checking account, about to die,  and then suddenly an influx of money comes in, I should be thankful, but  I also just had the daylights scared out of me (this has happened  multiple times, as well as almost been killed in other ways many times).  

Nonetheless, atheists will hate me when their lack of beliefs  become in question. I'm not here to tell you the "good news", I'm here  to tell you a horrifying story of life. I'm not "preaching" that "God is  good", that may even be insulting to God, if he is both the good and  evil force of the universe. He created evil did he not? He killed the  firstborn of the Egyptians, and punished the Israelites over and over  did he not? You'll laugh and say, "I can't worship a God I don't love."  He can make you love or hate him. He can do anything he wants. 

It's time to succumb to actual truth, you're in hell, on some level, but which level, and is it perpetual? 

Maybe.

That's  the thing, you're in a perpetual state of unknowing, and because you're  in a perpetual state of unknowing, you're perpetually tortured with  questioning.

Sometimes I post a literary abomination like this to  see if you'll react in standard formulaic ways, using the same  pseudorandom number generator to pull a string response from an array of  responses (assuming you're akin to an agent in the Matrix and nothing  more than computer code). Once in a while I like to mess with the  "agents" (and everyone in the "Matrix" is an "agent" to me), and see if I  can get your response algorithms to adapt and change in response to  mine, or if you'll respond with the same identifiable things as before. 

What else are you supposed to do when you're in hell and you're bored?

Maybe  I'll wake up after I die as a brain in a vat and something that looks  like the final boss from Contra 3 will be standing over me.

That  would kind of suck. The spirit thing was true, regardless of whether you  want to believe or not. Who really knows what's coming for this  universe, or if it's just more of the same. 

"I don't know" is the  answer. My meta-meta-point of course, is that the state of unknowing is that which derives a series of illogical and irrational responses to a world in which we believe things should happen quite reasonably and logically. When it's one isolated synchronicity that occurs, you say "well that's weird." When there are literally hundreds of synchronicities going on all around you and directly related to you at all moments of the day you're led to believe that you know one thing further than anyone else, when in reality, we all exist on the same playing field of unknowing, and that unknowing keeps us in a state of chaos.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Sounds like you're highly sensitive and attuned to the nature of reality, depressed, have unresolved trauma and are out of sync with reality. That's my formulaic algo 5000 response. Oh, and you're posting this in a drug forum and I'm not even high when I'm saying this. Bring it all back into alignment with the now moment and what seems like reality dephasing will reveal itself to be life unfolding in a synchronistic flow. Everything appears exactly when it is needed in the now moment and divine intelligence is orchestrated through your every action as an unfoldment of cause and effect. Or sumpting like that. Can't say it enough times. The breath will bring you back into alignment with the now moment. Meditation will bring you more deeply into revelation with reality. Fear and trauma removal will make it all more bearable cause you're in for quite the ride.


----------



## AddictRecon

How does one arrive at a concept of hell, or hell on earth without borrowing from Christianity?  Thats a genuine question.. Id really like to know.  Conceivably, there has to be a standard for what hell is, and then this earth has to somehow relate to it, or embody the very essence of it, correct me if Im wrong, but doesnt that require borrowing from the Christian view of hell, and if not, why?


----------



## Xorkoth

I think the use of the Word Hell in the Christian sense evokes a state of absolute suffering, endless.  The concept can exist with or without Christianity, it's just a borrowed word that has Christian roots.


----------



## Jabberwocky

I'll give you my own understanding of hell which is probably incomplete but not without basis. Hell in the truest sense is a fiction. The worst thing that can happen to a person is a disconnection from God. Basically God light leaves the person and they become a kind of computer program. As horrific as that reality sounds, even that is not entirely a disconnection from God. There is no such thing as eternal damnation. These beings can return to the light or can be destroyed and return to source to start all over again in the ascension back to God.

     The Hell realms that we use as stories to frighten children are mostly astral realms. Particularly the lower astral realms, which are nothing but nonstop pedophilia, clowns in horror costumes and fire and brimstone. Stuff like that. The stuff fear is made of. So in the most absolute sense we cannot disconnect from God and hell isn't real. Doesn't mean we should embrace evil and go to the dark side. Doesn't mean our actions have no consequence.


----------



## swilow

Xorkoth said:


> I think the use of the Word Hell in the Christian sense evokes a state of absolute suffering, endless.  The concept can exist with or without Christianity, it's just a borrowed word that has Christian roots.



From a certain perspective, absolute (but not endless) suffering is the lot of animals on earth. Most of the ways we suffer are evolved traits to ensure our survival. Think about physical pain; this is not so much a real, absolute thing, its a series of sensations that our nervous systems and brains evolved to experience, to enable our avoidance of stimuli that would harm/kill us. It makes sense, and yet as an inevitable function of a reality we do not choose (i.e. it is imposed upon us through the sheer fact that we exist) it entails a truly pointless sufferring, unless you believe that we exist for a reason. I happen to think this is random and meaningless and ends when we die and there is no other place or time for our personalised existence. In that sense, life is pointless, we are existing and compelled to escape pain and suffering through the very experience of these states. There is no greater reason for this. You suffer so you can learn to avoid suffering and live a longer life of procreation, and for no greater purpose.

Much of the macro life we see dies by being eaten, usually when still alive. If this doesn't happen, you get a long slow death due to starvation, though for some animals this may compell them to eat their young. Old animal are usually alone when they die, too. But, they have served their purpose if they procreated, and if they are eaten they have served a purpose too. The suffering along the way is utterly meaningless. 

The worst thing IMO is, as a human, you understand that there is a way out, that all of us will inevitably take without fail. We have to live with an instinct that forces us, through pain, fear and suffering, to continue living at all costs but we know that at the end of the day, we will lose this fight. At least most of us won't experience our last few minutes in the jaws of a predator, we just experience an entire lifetime knowing that one day, we will not exist. 

I love the natural world, but the more I observe it, the more I see it as a place of hellish, brutal suffering. There's no enlightenment amongst the likes of wild animals, there is just kill or be killed. I watched a David Attenborough show; they had filmed a snow leopard in the Himalaya's who needed to feed her three young. She was getting desperate, and sought out a larger prey to the normally juvenile animals she would kill and eat, and after killing this animal, had to drag a corpse the size of her body up a fucking mountain in a blizzard to prevent her and her young from starving. Her struggle was incredible- this act would probably be the hardest thing a human could imagine, and she had to be constantly worried about other predators attacking her and taking her food, or death by falling off the mountain, or freezing in the blizzard, all the while hoping her young hadn't been killed rendering her great battle even more futile. I felt like watching this was just watching a summary of the suffering replete in life on earth. It felt wrong to watch.

She got it back to her cubs, so they lived on to kill other young animals too. 

I just cannot avoid holding this idea, that life is optional and that this suffering and our struggle does not have a conclusion that we will ever be able to experience. Our struggle ceases when we die. It is the definition of pointlessness.

This is a very pessimistic post and I hope no-one finds it distressing. I know that I wish I did not believe this stuff, it feels almost cruel to spread this very dark perspective. I hope someone rebutts the fuck out of it! I really do.


----------



## herbavore

swilow said:


> This is a very pessimistic post and I hope no-one finds it distressing. I know that I wish I did not believe this stuff, it feels almost cruel to spread this very dark perspective. I hope someone rebutts the fuck out of it! I really do.



What I try to do is envision my two hands. In one, I hold this truth (that life is inherently full of horrendous suffering until we die and are removed from the cycle altogether). But in the other hand I hold all the beauty of the world: nature's incredible mind-blowing designs, music, human bonds, animal bonds, the simple cellular pleasure of being alive. Lately, with the whole human world turning to all the old fears and darkness, I find myself barely able to keep balance. But I do truly believe that balance, like happiness, is 90% choice. I would no more turn away from the hand that holds the horror than I would the hand that holds the beauty--they are both equally real to me, equally necessary.


----------



## -=SS=-

swilow said:


> This is a very pessimistic post and I hope no-one finds it distressing. I know that I wish I did not believe this stuff, it feels almost cruel to spread this very dark perspective. I hope someone rebutts the fuck out of it! I really do.



You mention the pointlessness of the suffering and pain, but interestingly you didn't choose to extend that to your rightly justified observation that this place is little more than a churning slaughter house. I would posit that there is a point to all the slaughter, unfortunately it's nothing that grand or even motivating to us humans! Or perhaps there is a secondary purpose that involves our increased ascendancy towards ever greater complexity, but until we get word from talking shrubs or something divine it still appears to be little more than an endless slaughter.

What really got me was learning how the plant kingdom engages in this slaughter too, it happens so slow that we can't see it take place. I think at that moment it really hit home just how brutal this place is. 

So unfortunately I can't rebuff your position. It is logical and born out of observational evidence. I do often wonder how many people actually grasp the simplicity but overwhelmingly total nature of the slaughterhouse, I have the impression many drift through life without giving it much consideration, distracted by culture and human games, only contemplating it when inevitably someone they love dies suddenly or they suffer serious health issues as most of us will.

All that on top of the madness of society with all its failings, our internal madness and insecurity of our own psychology.. that really does add up to a particular kind of hell. 

In truth I find it difficult to stay motivated, driven on only by the implanted impulses and bait of future pleasure. Even dreams grate me now. My preference is that place between sleep and awake, where its quiet with no thought or drives. There is no heaven and hell there, just stillness.


----------



## Xorkoth

swilow said:


> This is a very pessimistic post and I hope no-one finds it distressing. I know that I wish I did not believe this stuff, it feels almost cruel to spread this very dark perspective. I hope someone rebutts the fuck out of it! I really do.



I agree with the essential state of reality you propose.  All life exists by consuming other life.  Suffering exists, yes it does.  My dad is suffering tremendously and is close to his death.  But he also had many wonderful times in life that he was glad to have experienced.  I think as a human, we have a greater capacity to both suffering (since we are aware of it, since we can have existential suffering) as well as to the positive life experiences.  At times in my life I have experienced a huge amount of suffering, I have even wished to be dead for a pretty significant period of time (after being increasingly depressed for a long time), but I have also had intense moments and extended times of absolutely beautiful experiences that have made the suffering worth it.  Whenever I've been depressed I felt like that was all life is, and whenever I have been in a really great place, I feel like that's all life is.  Right now I'm in the middle, I'm not depressed but I'm not elated either, but I still get elated pretty often, and I still suffer sometimes.  As a human, we are able to be aware of our state, and thus we are able to appreciate or fear it more.

Basically, the point of life is what we make it.  We're here for a finite time, and if it makes us feel really happy and experience a lot of joy to do a particular thing with that time, that means a hell of a lot, because this time is all we've got.  Just because the physical point of reality is to reproduce life, and it's a brutal world, doesn't invalidate the joys of living.


----------



## vortech

I do believe, from the perspectives of Christian archetypes, that the Earth is Lucifer's domain, or rather Lucifer is the currently ruling god of Earth. His god, and our higher God, is the God we want to believe has ultimate control, but why would such a righteous God leave this planet for Lucifer to have his way with? Stay tuned for the answer.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

I don't think you can say it's an actual hell realm because some few folk have really pleasant lives.  However if  you are of a sensitive, empathic nature and you come to realize that you've been lied to about life from the get go you will realize to your horror  there really is often mostly suffering in many or most lives. If you want to get into the detail on this I highly recommend this.


----------



## herbavore

^ Hey cosmic, good to see you back--haven't seen you post in a while! Was wondering how things were with you?


----------



## FnX

What if we didn't have the concepts of innocence and guilt? Would we be living in heaven?


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

Hey herbavore, Things have improved somewhat. I can walk again so spend 2-4 hours a day in the mountains with my dogs and the bears. It helps my depression lots. Hope  you are well.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

FnX said:


> What if we didn't have the concepts of innocence and guilt? Would we be living in heaven?



If we were like other animals we'd have no past or future tormenting us and no language to torture us so, we wouldn't be living in heaven but we would be living instinctually and that's a lot easier. The only depressed animal I've ever seen was attached to a human. Our disease rubs off on our slaves (pets and children).


----------



## vortech

Without having bitten the apple of knowledge as that story goes, yeah I can see us living more in harmony with the birds and the bees, but maybe that was never our destiny, and our current collective torment is just another awkward stage on the path to redemption.


----------



## FLA

I accept in advance the derogatory comments I'll get from this. I'm a hypocrite that has studied and tried to practice buddhism or eastern thought for decades. Life is dream but we can't realize that without practice. We live in Samsara and will continue to do so until we realize our inherently enlightened nature. We can exist in the following realms:

Gods realm, 
Demon, Anti-god or Demi-god realm, 
Human realm:called the manuṣya realm. Buddhism asserts that one is reborn in this realm with vastly different physical endowments and moral natures because of a being's past karma. A rebirth in this realm is considered as fortunate because it offers an opportunity to attain nirvana and end the Saṃsāra cycle.
Animal realm
Hungry Ghosts realm 
Hell realm

I've read that as humans we can exist in any of these realms in our lifetime, maybe several during the course of a single day. Don't you feel like your living in hell sometimes but in other realms at other times? I didn't edit out the explanation of the human realm because it's the most auspicious.

I understand it will be dismissed as bullshit by many. BTW Cosmic Trigger you're right on the money about our (dogs in my case) they immediately pick up on the vibes when my wife and I are arguing. They won't eat and they appear to be saddened.


----------



## Xorkoth

Cosmic Trigger said:


> Hey herbavore, Things have improved somewhat. I can walk again so spend 2-4 hours a day in the mountains with my dogs and the bears. It helps my depression lots. Hope  you are well.



That's great man, I'm really happy for you.   I think a lot of us were wondering where you were and hoping things were okay so I'm happy to see you post again. 

I gotta say that being in nature helps me so much... it does profound things for my mental state.  Fortunately I live amongst incredible nature so I spend a lot of time in it, even my house is in the middle of a wooded mountainside.  I consider myself a very happy person, but when I spend much time away from it I start to get anxious and eventually depressed.


----------



## FLA

Xorkoth said:


> That's great man, I'm really happy for you.   I think a lot of us were wondering where you were and hoping things were okay so I'm happy to see you post again.
> 
> I gotta say that being in nature helps me so much... it does profound things for my mental state.  Fortunately I live amongst incredible nature so I spend a lot of time in it, even my house is in the middle of a wooded mountainside.  I consider myself a very happy person, but when I spend much time away from it I start to get anxious and eventually depressed.



I convinced there's no doubt. I notice how nice it is until the heat stroke starts to kick in Fla. We took a road trip to Colorado and even though the altitude overwhelmed me for a sec I think it has improved my mental outlook. I think we need to be indoors sometimes. I tend to be a little on the lazy side. I'm glad to see Cosmic Trigger back because some of his comments to what I had mentioned once would not register with anyone too much younger than me.


----------



## xbandit07x

Um not that I have much reason to say anything, but like, this earth is Gods kingdom and will never end.

Hell is definitely real, its not for those who simply sin, but Oppose the son/creator, go out of their way to stand against him


----------



## swilow

Gods kingdom is pretty fucking awful if this is it.


----------



## JahSEEuS

xbandit07x said:


> Hell is definitely real, its not for those who simply sin, but Oppose the son/creator, go out of their way to stand against him



Definitely?  Do you have any definitive proof?  Who is the son/creator?  Do you mean sun?


----------



## sigmond

FLA said:


> I accept in advance the derogatory comments I'll get from this. I'm a hypocrite that has studied and tried to practice buddhism or eastern thought for decades. Life is dream but we can't realize that without practice. We live in Samsara and will continue to do so until we realize our inherently enlightened nature. We can exist in the following realms:
> 
> Gods realm,
> Demon, Anti-god or Demi-god realm,
> Human realm:called the manuṣya realm. Buddhism asserts that one is reborn in this realm with vastly different physical endowments and moral natures because of a being's past karma. A rebirth in this realm is considered as fortunate because it offers an opportunity to attain nirvana and end the Saṃsāra cycle.
> Animal realm
> Hungry Ghosts realm
> Hell realm
> 
> I've read that as humans we can exist in any of these realms in our lifetime, maybe several during the course of a single day. Don't you feel like your living in hell sometimes but in other realms at other times? I didn't edit out the explanation of the human realm because it's the most auspicious.
> 
> I understand it will be dismissed as bullshit by many. BTW Cosmic Trigger you're right on the money about our (dogs in my case) they immediately pick up on the vibes when my wife and I are arguing. They won't eat and they appear to be saddened.



without explanation im going to say this guy is on to something. 


universe is predominantly karma, will, and imagination.

ha, my "ode to Schopenhauer" the world as karma, will, perception, and imagination"'

okay, its a little more complicated than that, but "karma, will, perception, and imagination" is a reasonable foundation..


----------

