# L-Theanine: Is Suntheanine the best?



## mitragyna

I've been using L-Theanine for a while now with great benefits. When I'm shopping for it, I would always see the "Suntheanine" brand and it's much more expensive than the other L-Theanine products. This made me wonder if it's more expensive just because of the name brand or if there is an actual difference in the makeup of the L-Theanine. Well, I guess it's both.

According to some consumer reviews, regular L-Theanine can lead to side effects such as headaches. While Suntheanine does not. Also I looked this up on the net and came across this article:



> Study Reveals Difference Between Suntheanine® and Other Brands
> 
> Dr. Daniel Armstrong, a Caldwell Professor of Chemistry at Iowa State University, and his analysis team reviewed a number of commercially available brands that claimed to contain pure L-theanine. Results revealed that a number of brands contained ingredients other than L-theanine.
> 
> "We found all of those tested that are made through chemical synthesis or claiming to be extracted from green tea actually have about 50 per cent present as D-theanine," explains Dr. Armstrong, adding that "the only material that proved to be pure L-theanine was the Suntheanine® brand, produced via biofermentation, which had more than 99.95 per cent L-theanine, our current detection limit".
> 
> Suntheanine® is the patented form of L-theanine and the trademark of Taiyo International, the company that originally isolated the amino acid into an effective supplement for consumers.


Then there is this article:


> L-theanine Must be Pure for Proper Absorption, Study Finds
> A new study finds that L-theanine must be administered in its pure form rather than as the mixture of D-theanine and L-theanine found in many nutritional supplements in order to be absorbed by the body.
> 
> Researchers from Iowa State University orally administered to rats pure L-theanine, pure D-theanine, and an ingredient commercially marketed as ?L-theanine? that actually was a racemic mixture (a 50:50 split between D- and L-theanine). They then measured blood concentrations, urinary excretion, and a marker of theanine metabolism in the blood.
> 
> The results show that the animals? bodies had a preference for pure L-theanine and that the pure form is better absorbed in the gut. The concentration of L-theanine seen in the blood was greater with the pure L-theanine than it was with the racemic mixture. There was also a trend toward greater urinary excretion of L-theanine when consumed as the racemic form.
> 
> The majority of clinical and animal studies determining the bioavailability of L-theanine have used Suntheanine, a form of pure L-theanine.
> 
> Simple HPLC analysis cannot discriminate between D- and L-theanine yet a number of companies are relying upon this method to assert that they have the pure L-isomer, declared Scott Smith, Vice President of Taiyo Kagaku, the manufacturer of Suntheanine in Minneapolis. The patented enzymatic synthesis method locks in the L-isomer and thus gives us pure L-theanine every batch. Suntheanine is an elegant example of where chemistry dictates biology.?
> Reference:
> Desai MJ, Gill MS, Hsu WH, Armstrong DW. Pharmacokinetics of theanine enantiomers in rats. Chirality. 2005 Mar;17(3):154-62


Well, according to these articles Suntheanine is better. But I would like to see more studies on this. I'd also like to know which products contain 100% L-Theanine and which ones are a racemic mixture.

Does anyone here have any info on this? Or any studies?

This would be a great help. Thanks!


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## Jabberwocky

what effects do you get? I don't get any effects whatsoever that I can discern. I'm pretty calm though and don'thave problems with anxiety or anything.

I'm just puzzled that anybody would buy this stuff since it has such little (no) effect on me. Although everybody is different.

I bought it in bulk from a trusted source (so I measure out my own doses).


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## negrogesic

Yea, I never noticed much of anything...


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## grue

I noticed effects from suntheanine.  Unfortunately tolerance was quite rapid.

So, is it purely L-theanine in green tea...?


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## mitragyna

^^
Yes, Green Tea contains "pure" L-Theanine. On average about 20 mg per cup.


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## mitragyna

Gaian Planes said:
			
		

> what effects do you get? I don't get any effects whatsoever that I can discern. I'm pretty calm though and don'thave problems with anxiety or anything.
> 
> I'm just puzzled that anybody would buy this stuff since it has such little (no) effect on me. Although everybody is different.
> 
> I bought it in bulk from a trusted source (so I measure out my own doses).


Some people don't feel a thing, but for some people it helps em' out tremendously. Personally, it relieves my anxiety greatly. I also notice an increase in concentration and focus. I always keep some chewable tabs on me just in case I need em'. Also, I always make sure to take it in the morning when I wake up. Kinda just gets me off to the right start for the day. A lot of people try to take a whole bottle to see if they can get a benzo feel. It's NOTHING like benzos IMO. I've never taken excess amounts though because I certainly don't find it recreational. I don't look for a "benzo" feel, because IMO it's very different. When used as needed though, it makes a very useful addition to my daily supplements.

This website contains tons of user reviews from people who use it for Chronic Fatigue, Anxiety, Depression, you name it.

EDIT: Here's a link to a post on Edot that people may find useful.


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## Ham-milton

I would have thought this was hogwash marketing, but those studies are real.  I'm surprised that the FDA hasn't cracked down on them for improper labelling.  You can't claim something is L- but is actually racemic!


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## mitragyna

That's exactly my thought! I don't think the FDA regulates "dietary supplements" in the US. But regardless, you can't legally sell something on the market claiming it's something when it's not. I'll look a little further into this, see if I can figure anything out.

I just wish I knew which brands other than Suntheanine actual contain 100% of the L isomer. Well, I guess there really isn't a way other emailing the companies, but they prob wouldn't admit it if it wasn't 100% L-Theanine.


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## nuke

It sure does something for me, especially when combined with piracetam, it's a very stoney relaxed kind of sensation but for some reason I can't sleep after taking a dose of it (or I'll sleep, but only for an hour or two then wake up).  I mixed about 200mg with a mild dose of DXM the other day and it made the DXM feel more subjectively psychedelic and potentiated it (and also made me a bit more anxious, strangely).


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## Jabberwocky

k gonna try some more now. You take 200mg nuke? I've tried that and got nothing. I'll try 400mg or so. Maybe its just different enzymes we have or something?

na na na I got more enzymes than you! (or less maybe 8()


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## nuke

Yeah, 50-75mg is nootropic for me, 100-200mg is active but very stoning.  This was when I took it for concentration at class, where I'd also usually consume it with lecithin, piracetam (~1g), cocoa (25g) and green tea.  But, yeah, it was active, if I dosed above 100mg and went to class I had difficulty paying attention because of the sedation.

I am a poor 2D6 metabolizer but I don't know if that has much to do with anything.


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## (zonk)

I always figured it would be a good potentiator - DA/5HT/GA/NMDA so essentially you could mix it with ANY kind of drug for great enhancement


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## mitragyna

Gaian Planes said:
			
		

> k gonna try some more now. You take 200mg nuke? I've tried that and got nothing. I'll try 400mg or so. Maybe its just different enzymes we have or something?
> 
> na na na I got more enzymes than you! (or less maybe 8()


400 mg is my typical morning dose. Then throughout the day I'll take 100-150 mg as needed.



			
				(zonk) said:
			
		

> I always figured it would be a good potentiator - DA/5HT/GA/NMDA so essentially you could mix it with ANY kind of drug for great enhancement


Exactly. It's odd, it seems the only time I can nod on Suboxone is when it's taken with L-Theanine. Also, when dosed with Amphetamines it can really take the edge off and make it a much more comfortable experience.


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## Jabberwocky

i feel...zero.

nothing comparable to phenibut or piracetam (which quite obviously affects me).


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## grue

> Exactly. It's odd, it seems the only time I can nod on Suboxone is when it's taken with L-Theanine. *Also, when dosed with Amphetamines it can really take the edge off and make it a much more comfortable experience.*



I'll have to try it again.  Perhaps this time the memantine I take daily could help offset my rapid tolerance to the stuff.

I'm curious, do you notice much of a tolerance problem?


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## mitragyna

^^
I'm assuming you're referring to L-Theanine and not Amphetamines. Yes I do notice a tolerance, but it's really quite minimal. For example, I used to (about a year ago) take 200 mg every morning. Now I take 300 for adequate benefits. So you can see that tolerance has developed much at all. Although I think reading a few other people's reports and they said they developed tolerance quite rapidly.

Truly, the effects of L-Theanine differ *widely* from person to person.


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## (zonk)

what if one were to take an excessive dose such as around 1g?
Does it potentiate amphetamines? I figured since it was both a mild DARI and an NMDA antagonist it would to some degree. I figure since it works on both DA+5HT that MDMA would be greatly enhanced


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## mitragyna

^ ^


> What if one were to take an excessive dose such as around 1g?


To be honest I don't thing I've ever taken 1g in a single sitting. That's a good question though, I may have to try that soon, once my new shipment of bulk powder arrives


> Does it potentiate amphetamines?


I certainly believe so, but it's different than any other amphetamine-potentiator I've used. I definitely increases the euphoria. It kinda takes the edge and any excess tension side-effects away but leaves the euphoria (and adds to it). Which is why Theanine is especially handy when taking large doses of amps, really smooths things out. Theanine + Amps make a great study combo. Theanine + Amps + Buprenorphine is one of my favorite recreational combos. Add some coca leaf in there to chew on and I'm in euphoric heaven.

Being an NMDA Antagonist like you said, it may be effective for keeping tolerances down. And about the MDMA, I can't comment on that since I've never taken them together. It would seem that it would be a good combo though.

I wonder what L-Theanine's affinities are for the receptors it acts upon...anyone know?


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## grue

> I'm assuming you're referring to L-Theanine and not Amphetamines. Yes I do notice a tolerance, but it's really quite minimal. For example, I used to (about a year ago) take 200 mg every morning. Now I take 300 for adequate benefits. So you can see that tolerance has developed much at all. Although I think reading a few other people's reports and they said they developed tolerance quite rapidly.
> 
> Truly, the effects of L-Theanine differ widely from person to person.



Aye, thanks a lot for the info.



> I certainly believe so, but it's different than any other amphetamine-potentiator I've used. I definitely increases the euphoria. It kinda takes the edge and any excess tension side-effects away but leaves the euphoria (and adds to it).  Which is why Theanine is especially handy when taking large doses of amps, really smooths things out.  Theanine + Amps make a great study combo.



Interesting.  In other threads recently I've been talking about guanfacine as an adjunct to my d-amp to reduce both physical/peripheral and certain cognitive side effects (some loss of flexibility, a tendency towards perseveration) which I relate to edgy excess adrenergic stimulation.

If memantine (the other thing I take) can help with my previous rapid-tolerance problem, as it has, tremendously, with my amphetamine, then I bet theanine could work as well as guanfacine.  Perhaps with even less chance of weakening the positive amphetamine effects.



> Theanine + Amps + Buprenorphine is one of my favorite recreational combos.



Bupe is another thing I wanted to add and experiment with.


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## Advanc3d

warning guys

i experiment with nootopics/supplements with stimulants.

A)Theanine BLUNTS out psychedelics.


i take 1g of theanine when i cant sleep when i taken lsd or mdma...


only way to "potentiate" stimulants is selective enzyme inhbitors (Quercetin)
or, piracetam.

also if anyone was wondering Selegiline (deprenyl) blunts out a lot of the "positive" effects of d-amphetamine/meth, but potentiates mdma


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## Ham-milton

Potentiating psychedelics is surely accomplishable via many other techniques.  How about using the inactive PEAs or Trypts?

I'm sure some of these are really only activating part of what's required for a 5HT2a psychedelic.


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## grue

> A)Theanine BLUNTS out psychedelics.
> 
> 
> i take 1g of theanine when i cant sleep when i taken lsd or mdma...



Well, 1g is a pretty high dose.  I know of a couple people who, pre-tolerance, feel drunk from 400mg theanine, so it's not surprising that psychedelic effects might be blunted from a higher dose.  It is sedating after all.  

One probably irrelevant thought about your experience is I always considered Periactin (cyproheptadine) to have a somewhat similar profile to L-theanine in terms of overall functional effect, enough for me to suggest it to someone as a replacement for theanine.  Periactin, like theanine, is dopaminergic (via serotonin receptor antagonism) and sedating.  If someone finds theanine to be a good sleep aid, they might have good results with Periactin as well, Periactin being found to increase sleep quality.  It also apparently inhibits CA++ outflow, which is kind of like NMDA antagonism (come to think of it I'm not sure how theanine goes about doing that).  They have similar half-lives.  Periactin definitely blocks psychedelic effects from 5HT2a agonists (this is borne out in research), as it antagonizes 5HT2A.  Although I am in the camp that says that 5HT2A agonist psychedelics are functionally antiserotonergic also.



> only way to "potentiate" stimulants is selective enzyme inhbitors (Quercetin)or, piracetam.



There are plenty of other ways to "potentiate" stimulants IMO.  Basifying the urine ... mu opioid agonists potentiate stimulant-induced behavior in studies ...  memantine potentiates things for me in a way ... novel situations ... etc.



> also if anyone was wondering Selegiline (deprenyl) blunts out a lot of the "positive" effects of d-amphetamine/meth



I take selegiline and I find it very significantly potentiates my d-amp, providing motivation and focus.  However, I take very low doses -- around .325 mg orally or .150mg sublingually -- with or without dextroamphetamine, higher doses make me extremely jittery and emotionless with overfocusing perseveration.  I know of at least two other people who need to take similarly low doses.  I suspect the mechanism making higher doses uncomfortable for us is not the highly trace amphetamine metabolites, but a somewhat mysterious positive interaction of selegiline with adrenoreceptors:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


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## mitragyna

Advanc3d- I'd agree with grue also. There are _many_ other ways of potentiating stimulants other than what you listed. And I have to completely disagree with "Selegiline (deprenyl) blunts out a lot of the "positive" effects of d-amphetamine/meth". I take Selegiline like grue, and it's probably the most effective 'poteniator' I've come across. 

Surprisingly, I'm on 12 mg daily of transdermal Selegiline. And I know that it can be very unsafe but I've started very low with my amphetamine dosing and now I've worked my way up to about 30-40 mg amphetamine daily (mostly due to tolerance).


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## mitragyna

Some interesting reads:


> *The acute effects of L-theanine in comparison with alprazolam on anticipatory anxiety in humans.*
> [My paper] Kristy Lu, Marcus A Gray, Chris Oliver, David T Liley, Ben J Harrison, Cali F Bartholomeusz, K Luan Phan, Pradeep J Nathan
> Neuropsychopharmacology Laboratory, Brain Sciences Institute, Swinburne, University of Technology, Victoria, Australia.
> L-Theanine (delta-glutamylethylamide) is one of the predominant amino acids ordinarily found in green tea, and historically has been used as a relaxing agent. The current study examined the acute effects of L-theanine in comparison with a standard benzodiazepine anxiolytic, alprazolam and placebo on behavioural measures of anxiety in healthy human subjects using the model of anticipatory anxiety (AA). Sixteen healthy volunteers received alprazolam (1 mg), L-theanine (200 mg) or placebo in a double-blind placebo-controlled repeated measures design. The acute effects of alprazolam and L-theanine were assessed under a relaxed and experimentally induced anxiety condition. Subjective self-reports of anxiety including BAI, VAMS, STAI state anxiety, were obtained during both task conditions at pre- and post-drug administrations. The results showed some evidence for relaxing effects of L-theanine during the baseline condition on the tranquil-troubled subscale of the VAMS. Alprazolam did not exert any anxiolytic effects in comparison with the placebo on any of the measures during the relaxed state. Neither L-theanine nor alprazalam had any significant anxiolytic effects during the experimentally induced anxiety state. The findings suggest that while L-theanine may have some relaxing effects under resting conditions, neither L-theanine not alprazolam demonstrate any acute anxiolytic effects under conditions of increased anxiety in the AA model.





> *The Neuropharmacology of L-Theanine(N-Ethyl-L-Glutamine):A Possible Neuroprotective and Cognitive Enhancing Agent.*
> [My paper] Pradeep J Nathan, Kristy Lu, M Gray, C Oliver
> , PO Box 13F, VI, 3800, Australia, Pradeep.Nathan@med.monash.edu.au.
> L-theanine (<i>N</i>-ethyl-L-glutamine) or theanine is a major amino acid uniquely found in green tea. L-theanine has been historically reported as a relaxing agent, prompting scientific research on its pharmacology. Animal neurochemistry studies suggest that L-theanine increases brain serotonin, dopamine, GABA levels and has micromolar affinities for AMPA, Kainate and NMDA receptors. In addition has been shown to exert neuroprotective effects in animal models possibly through its antagonistic effects on group 1 metabotrophic glutamate receptors. Behavioural studies in animals suggest improvement in learning and memory. Overall, L-theanine displays a neuropharmacology suggestive of a possible neuroprotective and cognitive enhancing agent and warrants further investigation in animals and humans. doi:10.1300/ J157v06n02_02.





> *Theanine, an ingredient of green tea, inhibits [(3)H]glutamine transport in neurons and astroglia in rat brain.*
> [My paper] Takami Kakuda, Eiichi Hinoi, Akihiro Abe, Ayumu Nozawa, Masato Ogura, Yukio Yoneda
> Central Research Institute, Itoen Ltd., Makinohara City, Shizuoka, Japan.
> We have previously shown that theanine (=gamma-glutamylethylamide), an ingredient of green tea, has a protective effect against ischemic neuronal death in the hippocampal CA1 region of the gerbil brain without affecting ligand binding to ionotropic receptor subtypes of the neurotransmitter glutamate structurally related to theanine. The neurotransmitter pool of glutamate is thought to be fueled by the entry of the other structural analog glutamine (Gln) and subsequent cleavage by glutaminase. Although theanine did not inhibit [(3)H]glutamate accumulation, [(3)H]theanine was actively accumulated in a temperature-dependent and saturable manner in rat brain synaptosomal fractions. The accumulation of [(3)H]theanine was markedly inhibited by Gln in a concentration-dependent manner, whereas [(3)H]Gln accumulation was inhibited by theanine vice versa. Both [(3)H]theanine and [(3)H]Gln accumulations were decreased after the replacement of sodium chloride with choline chloride, along with similarly high distribution profiles in telencephalic structures. A similar equilibrium was observed within 30 min at 30 degrees C for the accumulations of both [(3)H]theanine and [(3)H]Gln in cultured rat neocortical astroglia as well as neurons, whereas theanine inhibited [(3)H]Gln accumulation in a concentration-dependent manner at 0.1-10 mM. Furthermore, sustained exposure to 10 mM theanine led to a significant decrease in the level of extracellular glutamate released from cultured neurons. These results suggest that the green tea ingredient theanine would be an inhibitor of different transporters capable of transporting Gln across plasma membranes toward the modulation of the glutamate/Gln cycle required for the neurotransmitter pool of glutamate in neurons. (c) 2008 Wiley-Liss, Inc.





> *Involvement of GABA(A) Receptors in the Neuroprotective Effect of Theanine on Focal Cerebral Ischemia in Mice.*
> [My paper] Nobuaki Egashira, Kazuhide Hayakawa, Megumi Osajima, Kenichi Mishima, Katsunori Iwasaki, Ryozo Oishi, Michihiro Fujiwara
> We investigated the involvement of gamma-aminobutyric acid(A) (GABA(A)) receptors in the neuroprotective effect of gamma-glutamylethylamide (theanine), a component of Japanese green tea, following a 4-h middle cerebral artery (MCA) occlusion in mice. Theanine (1 mg/kg) reduced the size of the cerebral infarct and alterations of NeuN, GFAP, and Iba 1 expression levels at 24 h after MCA occlusion. This neuroprotective effect of theanine was prevented by bicuculline (GABA(A)-receptor antagonist, 10 mg/kg) but not 3-mercaptopropionic acid (glutamate decarboxylase inhibitor). These results suggest that the neuroprotective effect of theanine is mediated, at least in part, by GABA(A) receptors.





> *The effects of l-theanine, caffeine and their combination on cognition and mood.*
> [My paper] Crystal F Haskell, David O Kennedy, Anthea L Milne, Keith A Wesnes, Andrew B Scholey
> l-Theanine is an amino acid found naturally in tea. Despite the common consumption of l-theanine, predominantly in combination with caffeine in the form of tea, only one study to date has examined the cognitive effects of this substance alone, and none have examined its effects when combined with caffeine. The present randomised, placebo-controlled, double-blind, balanced crossover study investigated the acute cognitive and mood effects of l-theanine (250mg), and caffeine (150mg), in isolation and in combination. Salivary caffeine levels were co-monitored. l-Theanine increased 'headache' ratings and decreased correct serial seven subtractions. Caffeine led to faster digit vigilance reaction time, improved Rapid Visual Information Processing (RVIP) accuracy and attenuated increases in self-reported 'mental fatigue'. In addition to improving RVIP accuracy and 'mental fatigue' ratings, the combination also led to faster simple reaction time, faster numeric working memory reaction time and improved sentence verification accuracy. 'Headache' and 'tired' ratings were reduced and 'alert' ratings increased. There was also a significant positive caffeinexl-theanine interaction on delayed word recognition reaction time. These results suggest that beverages containing l-theanine and caffeine may have a different pharmacological profile to those containing caffeine alone.





> *Theanine, r-glutamylethylamide, increases neurotransmission concentrations and neurotrophin mRNA levels in the brain during lactation.*
> [My paper] Takashi Yamada, Takehiko Terashima, Keiko Wada, Sakiko Ueda, Mitsuyo Ito, Tsutomu Okubo, Lekh Raj Juneja, Hidehiko Yokogoshi
> Theanine (r-glutamylethylamide) is one of the major amino acid components in green tea. Recent studies suggest that theanine affects neurotransmission, especially inhibitory neurotransmission. In this study, we investigated whether theanine affects brain development in infant rats, because inhibitory neurotransmission is required for mature brain function. Mother rats were fed theanine ad libitum after confinement. The body weight gain rate of infants was not different from control infants. We detected theanine in the infant serum and measured neurotransmitter concentration and nerve growth factor (NGF) mRNA level in the infant rat brain. Some neurotransmitters, including dopamine, serotonin, glycine and GABA concentration, increased in the infant brain and NGF mRNA level increased in the cerebral cortex and hippocampus. However, these differences were lost by the end of nerve maturity. These results suggest that theanine enhanced synthesis of nerve growth factor and neurotransmitters during a nerve maturing period and promoted central nerve system maturation (CNS). Thus, theanine accelerated maturation. In conclusion, theanine may assist in healthy brain function development.


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## Ham-milton

That study says L-Theanine in the absence of caffeine decreases your ability to substract from seven?

Odd.


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## Advanc3d

grue said:
			
		

> Well, 1g is a pretty high dose.  I know of a couple people who, pre-tolerance, feel drunk from 400mg theanine, so it's not surprising that psychedelic effects might be blunted from a higher dose.  It is sedating after all.
> 
> One probably irrelevant thought about your experience is I always considered Periactin (cyproheptadine) to have a somewhat similar profile to L-theanine in terms of overall functional effect, enough for me to suggest it to someone as a replacement for theanine.  Periactin, like theanine, is dopaminergic (via serotonin receptor antagonism) and sedating.  If someone finds theanine to be a good sleep aid, they might have good results with Periactin as well, Periactin being found to increase sleep quality.  It also apparently inhibits CA++ outflow, which is kind of like NMDA antagonism (come to think of it I'm not sure how theanine goes about doing that).  They have similar half-lives.  Periactin definitely blocks psychedelic effects from 5HT2a agonists (this is borne out in research), as it antagonizes 5HT2A.  Although I am in the camp that says that 5HT2A agonist psychedelics are functionally antiserotonergic also.
> 
> 
> 
> There are plenty of other ways to "potentiate" stimulants IMO.  Basifying the urine ... mu opioid agonists potentiate stimulant-induced behavior in studies ...  memantine potentiates things for me in a way ... novel situations ... etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I take selegiline and I find it very significantly potentiates my d-amp, providing motivation and focus.  However, I take very low doses -- around .325 mg orally or .150mg sublingually -- with or without dextroamphetamine, higher doses make me extremely jittery and emotionless with overfocusing perseveration.  I know of at least two other people who need to take similarly low doses.  I suspect the mechanism making higher doses uncomfortable for us is not the highly trace amphetamine metabolites, but a somewhat mysterious positive interaction of selegiline with adrenoreceptors:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum



how do you measure 0.xxx mg?
the lowest scale i find measures in 10mg increments.


That is strange then, considering i orally consume 2.5mg w/food of selegiline for weeks on and take d-amphetamine and feel no "good" feeling. i just get talkative and slightly energised and thats it. usually when i take d-amp i get the euphoria with a lot of energy but not with selegline.

but indeed mdma and selegiline is possibly the best combo, last time i took half of a average pill and felt like i double dumped and im a person who has a medium-high tolerance


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## mitragyna

Ham-milton said:
			
		

> That study says L-Theanine in the absence of caffeine decreases your ability to substract from seven?
> 
> Odd.


LoL. The whole procedure seems odd to me.


> *Validity of the serial seven procedure*
> Peter Karzmark *
> Neuropsychology Service, Department of Neurology, Stanford University Medical Center, California, USA
> 
> Abstract
> Serial subtraction by seven (Serial Seven Test, SST) is frequently used in mental status evaluation for dementia as a measure of concentration. Validation research on the SST has been limited. The literature to date raises significant concern about the nature of the procedure. The purpose of the present study was to evaluate the nature and validity of the SST. The participants were 80 consecutive outpatient referrals to the neuropsychology consultation service of two large general medical hospitals. All subjects were administered a comprehensive neuropsychological assessment battery, including the Mini Mental State Examination version of the SST. Multiple regression analysis indicated that calculation skill is at least as important as concentration, in predicting SST performance. Measures of overall level of cognitive dysfunction, education, and psychopathology were unrelated to SST performance. The results suggest that SST performance is heavily influenced by basic arithmetic skill and that the procedure should be used with caution as a measure of concentration or other nonacademic mental abilities.


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## neoshredder

I just took it on a DXM afterglow and had a anxiety attack. Normally it is alright but don't mix with DXM if you are prone to anxiety.


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## neoshredder

I'm still messed up a little from L-Theanine mixed with DXM. Made my afterglow kinda scary. Horrible combination.


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## nuke

Yeah it's pretty weird for sure.


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## PhreakEDIT

mitragyna said:


> ^ ^
> 
> To be honest I don't thing I've ever taken 1g in a single sitting. That's a good question though, I may have to try that soon, once my new shipment of bulk powder arrives
> 
> I certainly believe so, but it's different than any other amphetamine-potentiator I've used. I definitely increases the euphoria. It kinda takes the edge and any excess tension side-effects away but leaves the euphoria (and adds to it). Which is why Theanine is especially handy when taking large doses of amps, really smooths things out. Theanine + Amps make a great study combo. Theanine + Amps + Buprenorphine is one of my favorite recreational combos. Add some coca leaf in there to chew on and I'm in euphoric heaven.
> 
> Being an NMDA Antagonist like you said, it may be effective for keeping tolerances down. And about the MDMA, I can't comment on that since I've never taken them together. It would seem that it would be a good combo though.
> 
> I wonder what L-Theanine's affinities are for the receptors it acts upon...anyone know?




ARGH!!! I can't send a PM *STILL*!!! So frustrating!!
Sorry to have to do this publically, but because I can't PM mitragyna directly I'm just gonna have to Copy&Paste it here, sorry people:

"hey man,

just read a post of yours regarding you passion for l-theanine when it comes to anxiety etc...
i find l-theanine really helps me as well, both in terms of anxiety and socialising, but as well as concentration, focus and memory - it's a great all round supplement!

I just have 2 questions for you, though:

1) What dose do you take to get decent effects from it? You said (in this post) that you always carry a bunch around with you, but how many mg's d'you reckon is a good 'calming' dose for you? It usually takes me about 300-500mg to actually feel properly relaxed and actually like I'm "on" something, but maybe I don't need to feel that; maybe I just need to get it's effects but not "notice" them, so-to-speak. Plus it's quite expensive stuff here in the UK so if I could cut it down to less that'd be more economical...

2) You said you had these chewable tabs which you carried around...? I'm VERY interested in these, as the only ones I can find are capsules and I'm getting tired of swallowing bulk capsules all the time. Do you have a link.

Any other info much appreciated as well 

Cheers"

On another note --> HOW LONG BEFORE I CAN SEND PM'S?!?!


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## mitragyna

PhreakEDIT said:


> ARGH!!! I can't send a PM *STILL*!!! So frustrating!!
> Sorry to have to do this publically, but because I can't PM mitragyna directly I'm just gonna have to Copy&Paste it here, sorry people:
> 
> "hey man,
> 
> just read a post of yours regarding you passion for l-theanine when it comes to anxiety etc...
> i find l-theanine really helps me as well, both in terms of anxiety and socialising, but as well as concentration, focus and memory - it's a great all round supplement!
> 
> I just have 2 questions for you, though:
> 
> 1) What dose do you take to get decent effects from it? You said (in this post) that you always carry a bunch around with you, but how many mg's d'you reckon is a good 'calming' dose for you? It usually takes me about 300-500mg to actually feel properly relaxed and actually like I'm "on" something, but maybe I don't need to feel that; maybe I just need to get it's effects but not "notice" them, so-to-speak. Plus it's quite expensive stuff here in the UK so if I could cut it down to less that'd be more economical...
> 
> 2) You said you had these chewable tabs which you carried around...? I'm VERY interested in these, as the only ones I can find are capsules and I'm getting tired of swallowing bulk capsules all the time. Do you have a link.
> 
> Any other info much appreciated as well
> 
> Cheers"
> 
> On another note --> HOW LONG BEFORE I CAN SEND PM'S?!?!



Howdy! It's good to see other people are utilizing this fantastic substance.

Now, to answer your questions:

1. For me, a good calming dose is around 400 mg. Even 200 mg would help with any anxiety, but I prefer at least 400 mg to really do the job. But I would just recommend experimenting, since everyone responds differently to different substances. If you haven't already...start with 100 mg, then move up in 50-100 mg increments until you find a good dose to quell any anxiety.

2. Check your PM's.

I _think_ you can start PM-ing other members when you hit 20 posts.


----------



## strattera69

lol I wonder if L-theanine would help you get over a dxm addiction
or getting off of gabapentin (or one of its derivatives)


----------



## mitragyna

strattera69 said:


> lol I wonder if L-theanine would help you get over a dxm addiction
> or getting off of gabapentin (or one of its derivatives)


I certainly think it *would* help. Especially since it raises GABA levels in the brain. It also affects many other "happy" neurotransmitters.


----------



## strattera69

but can it be used to wean one off of a addiction to alcohol/benzos/GHB? that is the true test of 
any GABA-tweaking treatment in my opinion


----------



## theWorldWithin

Please be realistic, there is nothing that can help wean you off of those strong GABAergenics besides more benzos. This supplement however may have potential in helping a person stay clean in the post addiction phase where anxiety becomes quite crippling. Even if you were told it could help, would you really risk a seizure to try this out?


----------



## pofacedhoe

Advanc3d said:


> how do you measure 0.xxx mg?
> the lowest scale i find measures in 10mg increments.
> 
> 
> That is strange then, considering i orally consume 2.5mg w/food of selegiline for weeks on and take d-amphetamine and feel no "good" feeling. i just get talkative and slightly energised and thats it. usually when i take d-amp i get the euphoria with a lot of energy but not with selegline.
> 
> but indeed mdma and selegiline is possibly the best combo, last time i took half of a average pill and felt like i double dumped and im a person who has a medium-high tolerance



your baseline dopamine is therefore higher after weeks of segeline so your desensitised receptors percieve less effe3ct. yo!


----------



## PhreakEDIT

pofacedhoe said:


> your baseline dopamine is therefore higher after weeks of segeline so your desensitised receptors percieve less effe3ct. yo!



Hmm, this is interesting.

I take 2.5mg Selegiline everyday. Obviously this means that my average dopamine levels are higher due to it's MAO-B inhibition.

However, I didn't really think it through before starting to take it; what effect it would have on my dopamine receptors... 

Say I was to take 2.5mg Selegiline everyday for two weeks - this would only result in MAO-B inhibition (as it is still a low dose): my dopamine receptors will be downregulated/de-sensitized, right? So then how long would I have to abstain from Selegiline use until my dopamine receptors had returned to normal? (i.e. I would be able to _fee_ dopamine-acting drugs)

2 weeks is the average time for an irreversible MOAI to stop having it's effect, but I've read that other resulting effects can last up to 40, even 50 days!

I like taking Deprenyl (Selegiline Hcl) but not if it will have too much interference with other drugs. That being said, I mostly like downers and GABA acting drugs; opiates etc... so I guess dopamine inhibition is not that major. I could just take L-Tyrosine or DLPA daily I guess...?


----------



## The Monkey Mantra

Say what you will, but I've taken 18 g L-Theanine in one dose and felt aaaaaabsolutely NOTHING!


----------



## mitragyna

PhreakEDIT said:


> Hmm, this is interesting.
> 
> I take 2.5mg Selegiline everyday. Obviously this means that my average dopamine levels are higher due to it's MAO-B inhibition.
> 
> However, I didn't really think it through before starting to take it; what effect it would have on my dopamine receptors...
> 
> Say I was to take 2.5mg Selegiline everyday for two weeks - this would only result in MAO-B inhibition (as it is still a low dose): my dopamine receptors will be downregulated/de-sensitized, right? So then how long would I have to abstain from Selegiline use until my dopamine receptors had returned to normal? (i.e. I would be able to _fee_ dopamine-acting drugs)
> 
> 2 weeks is the average time for an irreversible MOAI to stop having it's effect, but I've read that other resulting effects can last up to 40, even 50 days!
> 
> I like taking Deprenyl (Selegiline Hcl) but not if it will have too much interference with other drugs. That being said, I mostly like downers and GABA acting drugs; opiates etc... so I guess dopamine inhibition is not that major. I could just take L-Tyrosine or DLPA daily I guess...?


It was always in my knowledge that MAOIs *potentiated* stimulants in general. I just can't see how an MAOI would *weaken* the effects of these drugs...


----------



## mitragyna

The Monkey Mantra said:


> Say what you will, but I've taken 18 g L-Theanine in one dose and felt aaaaaabsolutely NOTHING!


Wow. L-Theanine is fairly subtle to me, but 18 g should have done _something_.

It is interesting you say that though; I've heard some reports of people taking massive doses like that also, and not feeling anything. Some people truly must be more sensitive to the Theanine than others I guess...?


----------



## strattera69

theWorldWithin said:


> Please be realistic, there is nothing that can help wean you off of those strong GABAergenics besides more benzos. This supplement however may have potential in helping a person stay clean in the post addiction phase where anxiety becomes quite crippling. Even if you were told it could help, would you really risk a seizure to try this out?



eh, I've risked more for a lot less, and if it were one of my last options...

there has to be something out there that is the suboxone version of a
benzo for this type of addiction. At least something being tested, no?


----------



## PhreakEDIT

mitragyna said:


> It was always in my knowledge that MAOIs *potentiated* stimulants in general. I just can't see how an MAOI would *weaken* the effects of these drugs...



**** N.B. After writing this I realised that this post becomes a bit of a biochemistry rant, and ends up seriously diverging from anything written by the OP temporarily. I apologise for this in advance - I get carried away with this type of stuff  ****​
...yes, sort of. But what you just said there is the generic ("Do not take if on MAOI of any kind as it may dramatically increase plasma concentrations...") widely-thought view. It's actually so much more complicated than that. Most MAOI's [d]do[/b] potentiate the effects of drugs like stimulants and mushrooms/acid because they prevent the breakdown of the drug or its metabolites in the CNS, which obviously can be dangerous physically (for things that one can OD on - e.g. coke), or dangerous mentally (for things like mushrooms; it could make 1g feel like 5g, which could be massively overwhelming for a first timer, or even an experienced user thinking they were taking a low dose). Actually, come to think of it, the latter can actually cause major physiological problems because those kind of drugs do increase blood pressure/cause vasoconstriction etc... which - if prolonged - could be a serious issue.

Anyway, I digress. Basically, there is a lot of difference between all these different types of drugs. When 'legal highs' say something like "DO NOT TAKE IF ON SSRI'S OR MAOI'S" it's usually just to give the most scope of caution to the users. I mean, we all know how many people out there think that just because something is 'legal' or 'herbal' it means it's safe. And then we see BZP/Mephedrone/GBL related death due to lack of knowledge or research. The different mechanisms of action are actually quite important between all these enzyme inhibiting drugs. For example, oral DPT can _only_ be taken with an oral MAOI simultaneously or else it's broken down too fast. Same goes for supplements like PEA and l-Tyrosine (and, to some extent, l-Theanine) as these chemicals are broken down so fast within the brain, sometimes within about 0.5 seconds of them hitting your bloodstream. The point that I've been circumlocuting for the last two paragraphs (8)) is that - whilst the most common MAOI's will potentiate stimulants and the likes - the issue with Selegiline is slightly different because it's quite a unique MAO inhibitor.

Most prescribed anti-depressant drugs are non-specific MAO inhibitors. That is, they inhibit most - if not all - types of monoamine oxidase enzymes (these are pretty much what is responsible for moving around and modulating neurotransmitters in the brain). Seeing as most drugs (with the exception of most non-synthetic opiates, and GABAergic drugs...to an extent) practically rely on flooding the brain with either one of the aforementioned neurotransmitters, or in some way blocking their re-uptake, then it can be very dangerous taking certain courses of anti-depressants with Cocaine/Amphetamines/MDxx's etc.. as, if you have too much 'excess' serotonin and/or dopamine (to name two of the most commonly known ones) then it can cause hypertensive crisis, Serotonin Syndrome, tardive dyskinesia (to name a few) and, of course, death. Neurotransmitters are great when you're fucked on them, but not so great when you get fucked by them.

Deprenyl [Selegiline Hcl/Citrate] differs in the fact that it's an irreversible specific MAO-B inhibitor. This is a lot less "easy-going" than most other types (i.e. you don't have to be *as* careful with your diet or drug-intake). Extra-simplified, this basically means it partially stops the breakdown of dopamine in the brain, hence why people use it to treat Alzheimer's, Parkinsons and - if you're looking for the Nootropic value - to boost motivation and focus, as dopamine is heavily connected with these cognitive functions (being directly associated with the reward/pleasure centres of the brain). So, what happens is that, over time, you constantly have "extra" dopamine in your brain. This can lead to downregulation of the dopamine receptors: they are no longer as sensitive to dopamine molecules so after you stop taking it and you take drugs with high dopamine-receptor affinity (like Cocaine), your receptors don't 'notice' as much as you *technically* shouldn't get such a kick out of it. Obviously this can cause people to take more and *possibly* lead to overdose, but this is only in extreme conditions.

The problem with Selegiline - and what I was hoping someone with advance drug-chemistry knowledge could help me out with - is that, because it's classed as "irreversible" it can potentially take up to 40 days for MAO-B inhibition to return to normal, and possibly even longer for upregulation of dopamine receptors to occur (to return to their normal 'sensitivity'). I was just wondering if anyone had any definitive knowledge, or better yet, *personal experience*, with using Selegiline or a similar drug like Rasagiline and taking other drugs either, a) alongside it; or b) a few days after stopping treatment/self-medication?

I personally don't take anything like base or coke, but - when I have the availability - I take Adderall or Ritalin for a study aid. Both are almost structurally identical to the two street drugs on a molecular level so there's quite a bit of relevance there. 

I know of the dangers to do with systolic blood-pressure when it comes to taking these two combined, but I take low enough doses for that to be a minor problem. Plus I have herbal antihypertensives to hand if things get really problematic. However, that's not my issue. What I'm more concerned about is the effectiveness if - say - Ritalin when taking Deprenyl...? I would usually only take 10-30mg oral/railed for study aid reasons; but if Deprenyl is going to cause severe enough downregulation of certain receptors then I don't want to end up taking 5x more Ritalin than normal, both due to economic reasons, and physiological complications...

Does anyone have any experience in this field? Perhaps even with regular MAOI's...? Any info is appreciated 



			
				The Monkey Mantra said:
			
		

> Say what you will, but I've taken 18 g L-Theanine in one dose and felt aaaaaabsolutely NOTHING!



Hmm, that is pretty weird. 18g of L-Theanine is a LOT!! Are you sure it wasn't bunk stuff...?
Do GABAegric drugs like the less tranquilising Benzodiazepines (Clonazapem, Temazepam, Midazolam...) have any effect on you at all?? I ask because L-Theanine is clinically/scientifically proven to have such a wide spectrum of effects on the brain and CNS that, theoretically, if you genuinely feel 'absolutely nothing' from a dose that massive then you shouldn't respond to a whole range of other, commonly-prescribed drugs.

Have a look at *this website*. I would actually advise anyone interested in L-Theanine to read this anyway as it's very concise and has the bare bones of what you would want to know - http://web-us.com/l-theanine_anxiety_reducer.htm). To Copy&Paste the most interesting/relevant bit(s):



> *Physiological Effects*
> ...this amino acid [L-theanine] actually *acts antagonistically against the stimulatory effects of caffeine* on the nervous system.
> 
> ...research on human volunteers has demonstrated that L-theanine creates a sense of relaxation via at least two different mechanisms. First, this amino acid *directly stimulates the production of alpha brain waves*, creating a state of *deep relaxation and mental alertness**
> 
> ...second, L-theanine is *involved in the formation of the inhibitory neurotransmitter, gamma amino butyric acid (GABA)*. GABA influences the levels of two other neurotransmitters, dopamine and serotonin, producing the key relaxation effect.
> 
> ...can mitigate many of the harmful effects of stress [and subsequently be helpful in dealing with GAD and cases of acute social phobia] *without L-theanine causing sedation* in the process.
> 
> ...L-theanine is most effective in the range of 50-200 mg, with the effect being *felt within 30 minutes and lasting for 8-10 hours*. Individuals with high stress levels may increase their dosage of L-theanine to at least 100 mg, with no more than 600 mg being taken in a six hour period.
> 
> ...no known adverse reactions to L-theanine and n*o drug interactions.*
> 
> ...current ongoing research include the use of L-theanine as an *alternative to Ritalin*... high blood pressure... in *sharpening mental acuity and concentration.*




_** Alpha brainwaves are the type generated in a sort of mild hypnagogic state, in the sense that you are alert but in an introspective and peaceful sort of way. You're in "alpha-mode" when you are meditating, listening to music you love, just before you go to bed etc.. not drowsiness or lethargy but more an intense immersive wakefulness; it's a relaxed and effortless alertness. When you're genuinely stress-free or totally comfortable somewhere or with someone you're probably in your alpha brainstate. This is why L-theanine is so versatile: you can take in excess of 500mg and be totally anxiety-free, or you can take slightly less and be in a relaxed yet motivated mood (hence why it's useful in a Nootropic Stack). I'm para-phrasing what is explained alot more articulately in the article and adding in a bit of subjectivism but this seems to be the general consensus*_

On a side note, this stuff goes amazingly well with other supplements or anxiolytic medicines. I'm prescribed Clonazepam (6mg a day) and have found that low doses of l-Theanine can really boost it's effects in terms of both duration and intensity. Not only that, but when I've been out of K-Pins I've taken a combination of L-Theanine, 5-HTP and L-Tyrosine (essentially, GABA:Serotonin:Dopamine - the ultimate long-lasting, all-round replacement) and it's worked FANTASTICALLY!

*The Monkey Mantra:* unless those 18g were fake then I really can't see how that's physically possible. I mean, that's a truly epic dose! I can understand an enzyme deficiency that may inhibit particular biochemical mechanisms, but that would also most likely mean you wouldn't respond to Benzos as well (unless you don't??) I suppose _one_ thing it could've been was that you took it on a full stomach...? It's an amino acid so you're s'posed to take it on as empty a stomach as you can manage so there aren't as many competitive proteases to prevent metabolism. Never take amino acids with a high-protein content meal, or after exercise. 

I would recommend trying it again (at a dose of ~500-750mg) and perhaps in combination with dopamine and serotonin and GABA precursors: 5-HTP, L-Tyrosine, NALT, L-Trytophan, DLPA, L-Phenylalanine, Phenibut, Picamilon etc... to see if that'll do anything.

*EDIT -* Sorry, mitragyna; I've managed to completely hi-jack your thread with a whole load of irrelevant crap (those first few paragraphs). Didn't mean to do that, I apologise. I'll probably start a new thread somewhere else asking about all that other stuff.

Just out of interest - what kind of dose will get you where you want; how long does it last; and do you split it over the course of the day?


----------



## wreckhead

PhreakEDIT said:


> The problem with Selegiline - and what I was hoping someone with advance drug-chemistry knowledge could help me out with - is that, because it's classed as "irreversible" it can potentially take up to 40 days for MAO-B inhibition to return to normal, and possibly even longer for upregulation of dopamine receptors to occur (to return to their normal 'sensitivity'). I was just wondering if anyone had any definitive knowledge, or better yet, *personal experience*, with using Selegiline or a similar drug like Rasagiline and taking other drugs either, a) alongside it; or b) a few days after stopping treatment/self-medication?



For me, selegiline's effects fade away over several days of abstinence.  After 2-3 days the effects are pretty much negligible and I slip into a hypo-dopaminergic state of lethargy and inactivity, which lasts up to several weeks.

When beginning selegiline, it took 2-6 days of 5mg to notice the dopamine boost.  Often, selegiline's anxiogenic effects preceded dopaminergic elevation, and dominated over it.

I found dosing 15-20mg to be an effective way to commence treatment rapidly, which gave effects within a couple of hours.  People say that 10mg+ crosses into the realms of unselective MAO-inhibition, but this only applies to sustained dosing at those levels.  Taking 20mg at once is similar to taking 5mg for four days, due to the slow rate at which MAO is replenished.


----------



## PhreakEDIT

wreckhead said:


> For me, selegiline's effects fade away over several days of abstinence.  After 2-3 days the effects are pretty much negligible and I slip into a hypo-dopaminergic state of lethargy and inactivity, which lasts up to several weeks.
> 
> When beginning selegiline, it took 2-6 days of 5mg to notice the dopamine boost.  Often, selegiline's anxiogenic effects preceded dopaminergic elevation, and dominated over it.
> 
> I found dosing 15-20mg to be an effective way to commence treatment rapidly, which gave effects within a couple of hours.  People say that 10mg+ crosses into the realms of unselective MAO-inhibition, but this only applies to sustained dosing at those levels.  Taking 20mg at once is similar to taking 5mg for four days, due to the slow rate at which MAO is replenished.



Only 2-6 days at 5mg daily? Well that's reassuring, thanks 

And yeah, sustained doses of <10mg will cause Selegiline's effect to go from selective MAO-B inhibition to non-specific MAO-A inhibition (the more dangerous of the two; the one where you basically can't eat cheese etc...) But you're right - this only happens with sustained use. I've been using 2.5mg daily now but I skipped a few days by accident so I don't know where I am in terms of effects. I mean, I know it has a long half-life, being an MAO inhibitor and all that, but I dunno how this might affect the cumulative effects.

I only had a sample amount as well which kind of sucks so I've only for 7.5mg to try out in total left. I'm gonna get some more because I can _feel_ that, even though the stuff is not working for me now, it will work in the future if I "dedicate" myself to it.

I might take 2.5mg today and then tomorrow try 5mg at once to see what that does. I'm not expecting much, just maybe slightly more than with 2.5mg, *especially* if I throw in some DLPA (DL-Phenylalanine --> D-Phenylalanine & L-Phenylalanine --> L-Tyrosine --> Phenethylamine --> Endorphins -->L-DOPA --> Dopamine, Norepinephrine, Epinephrine)*

_* this is not the direct mechanism, but close enough._

It's a shame that the downregulation of dopamine receptors will cause lethargy and un-motivation when I stop taking it, but I guess it's kind of mild seeing as the re-modulation of the monoamine oxidases and the dopamine receptors happen quite slowly as the MAO-B effects wear off. I can always fight that with L-Theanine as well as that'll help regulate mood and motivation via GABAergic systems.

Just out of interest, wreckhead: what do you take Selegiline for? And do you supplement it with any... supplements/vitamins/herbs in order to boost Dopamine even more or just by itself? Does it have much effect?

I think - when I get some more - I will take 5mg a day and see what happens. If nothing after a week then I will try a single dose of 20mg to see how that works out for motivation.

Cheers for the info


----------



## neoshredder

neoshredder said:


> I'm still messed up a little from L-Theanine mixed with DXM. Made my afterglow kinda scary. Horrible combination.


Well this one mistake and now I get freaking anxious whenever I take DXM or Theanine. I felt like I was going to die last time I took DXM. My brain feels permanently fucked as well.


----------



## pofacedhoe

mitragyna said:


> It was always in my knowledge that MAOIs *potentiated* stimulants in general. I just can't see how an MAOI would *weaken* the effects of these drugs...



yes but if your dopamine dopamine system effects are high for weeks on end you get used to this feeling (getting desensitised like when on ssri's) and also when you have low dopamine effects a dopaminergic stimulant like amphetamine is very noticable, if you have greater dopamine effects happening then the difference is less noticable as you are going from moderate effects to greater rather than low effects to greater. i would guess if you used neither Selegiline nor amphetamine for weeks then one day combined the two you would probably notice an increased effect compared to amphetamine alone. 

combining the two is not recomended


----------



## rosee

I was hoping someone could please tell me more about selegiline and what i can and can't take with it.  I am on a low dose so far of 2.5 mg twice daily and I wanted to know what I can combine it with, ie. phentermine?  Or should I cut back to 1.25 mg twice daily?  That's a quarter of a tablet so I don't know how I can go much lower than that.


----------



## caizar

Anyone used sulbutiamine its in slim extreme i think not sure,Or IBE x-force ?

so l-theanine is a vitamin b1 yes?


----------



## PhreakEDIT

Having read the last 3 posts in haste, it seems like this thread has deviated... true? Or am I just being lazy and not reading the whole thing...? Of course I will when I have the time, but it seems we're on to the joys of Deprenyl now!


----------



## c0rt3x

What about GMA (gamma-Glutamylmethylamide) a.k.a. N-methyl-L-glutamine?

Is it more potent in general or just as a hypotensive?


----------



## hamhurricane

IME l-theanine (unlike benzos) only produces effects when i am already feeling anxious, if i take theanine in the midst of a episode of strong anxiety it seems to provide moderate relief but if i just take it when im feeling relatively stable it has no real effect even after taking a gram.


----------



## amanitadine

yeah about the same for me, virtually no CNS effects but ive found it potentiates GABA B agonists to a profound degree....phenibut, gbl, ghb, and even baclofen, which feels suprisingly different than phenibut to me i  that it is barely intoxicating, gets quite drunk feeling when combined with 600 mg of l-theanine


----------



## NoOnesHome

mitragyna said:


> Some people don't feel a thing, but for some people it helps em' out tremendously. Personally, it relieves my anxiety greatly. I also notice an increase in concentration and focus. I always keep some chewable tabs on me just in case I need em'. Also, I always make sure to take it in the morning when I wake up. Kinda just gets me off to the right start for the day. A lot of people try to take a whole bottle to see if they can get a benzo feel. It's NOTHING like benzos IMO. I've never taken excess amounts though because I certainly don't find it recreational. I don't look for a "benzo" feel, because IMO it's very different. When used as needed though, it makes a very useful addition to my daily supplements.
> 
> This website contains tons of user reviews from people who use it for Chronic Fatigue, Anxiety, Depression, you name it.
> 
> EDIT: Here's a link to a post on Edot that people may find useful.



Great for anxiety.
Add a little Valarien for a boost.


----------



## /navarone/

Wondering if we will ever see L-theanine analogues (apart from gamma-Glutamylmethylamide).

Adding something here and there on the amines of glutamine might turn up to be a more interesting substance. With higher AMPA and NMDA properties porbably.

What do you guys think?


----------



## /navarone/

Just found a wide collection of Japanese research papers (in PDF) all reagarding L-theanine many of which are on its neuropharmacological profile.

Read theese:


Inhibition by Theanine of Binding of [3H]AMPA, [3H]Kainate and [3H]MDL 105,519 to Glutamate Receptros

Neuroprotective Effects od the Green Tea Components Theanine and Cathechins

Inhibiting Effects of Theanine on Caffeine Stimulation Evaluated by EEG in the Rat

Theanine-induced Reduction of Brain Serotonin Concentration in Rats

Effects of Theanine, a Unique Amino Acid in Tea Leaves, on Memory in a Rat Behavioral Test

Altered Levels of Oxidation and Phospholipase C Isozyme Expression in the Brains of Theanine-Administered Rats

Involvement of GABAa Receptors in the Neuroprotective Effect of Theanine on Focal Cerebral Ischemia in Mice

Combined Administration of L-Cystine and L-Theanine Enhances Immune Functions and Protects against Influenza Virus Infection in Aged Mice

Effects of Theanine on Alcohol Metabolism and Hepatic Toxicity

The rest of the site articles can be found here.

Good read.

-Nav


----------



## /navarone/

c0rt3x said:


> What about GMA (gamma-Glutamylmethylamide) a.k.a. N-methyl-L-glutamine?
> 
> Is it more potent in general or just as a hypotensive?



By some japanese study its reported to have higher hypotensive activity which I doubt is due to any DA/NA antagonist activity judging by the structure.

The full article (_Hypotensive effect of γ-glutamylmethylamide in spontaneously hypertensive rats - Life Sciences
Volume 62, Issue 12, 13 February 1998, Pages 1065-1068 _was for me quite impossible to find but I assume it has to do with different levels of activity on GABA and NMDA.
The Ki/IC50/nH profiles of L-theanine compared to L-glutamic acid can be found on the first papers I posted above.

This data somehow sheds a thin light on theanine SAR, encouraging research for research on possible theanine analogues that might prove to be more pharmacologically interesting. I found a few ones sold by some chemical companies on PubMed and ChemSpider (propyl, isopropyl and ethylamino) though almost no relevant pharmacological data on theese.

_
PS: I also found on the Wiki's NMDA antagonist entry a substance (AP5) that impressively resemmbles L-theanine and is in fact a NMDA competitive antagonist._


----------



## Gormur

L-theanine certainly is psychoactive. I haven't tried Suntheanine. The supplement i'm taking is called Lumina (Metagenics)

200mg L-theanine effectively kills my anxiety. It takes a few days to get used to the effects and function on it. I find myself forgetting and spacing out when i go above 200mg..  Interesting how it increases alpha activity. I've noticed that i'm much better equipped to deal with real-life situations and stress

600mg L-theanine + cannabis was a dissociative trip for me...... Amazing headspace and even some minor visuals that were pretty bizarre 

Fascinating stuff really


----------



## ektamine

Gormur said:


> 600mg L-theanine + cannabis was a dissociative trip for me...... Amazing headspace and even some minor visuals that were pretty bizarre



Weird, maybe you have a sensitive reaction to it.

I take ~200mg of theanine probably on average, every other night. I never recall feeling much at all from it. I'm going to do some reading on it and possibly try a higher dose tonight to see if I feel any anxiolytic or sedative effect.


----------



## DJHENRU

[journal] tea jouranal Because this thread is so necromanticised and insane to read 
*cracks the proverbial knuckle

This thread seemed to cover my history with combining substances with theanine well.
 I have had suntheanine before, and other commercially bottled theanine. 

Actually when I this is when I first got into it, I didn’t really work well, or I was expecting more inebriation, while it was just providing the remarkable effect of relaxation without drowsiness. 
I got into drinking Lots and LOTS of tea, perfecting the alembic furnace, sometimes boiling tea for many hours until it seemed like the tannins where removed! Other times still taking it overnight.

Commercial decaf came into the equation, which following the directions seemed like an in-between point in taste. Decaf steeped overnight, in cold was the most delicious yet it seemed where I was consuming scores and scores of bags in a day... 

Later I got into when to poly drugging with amphetamines like the OP brang up. I got into d, amphetamine and vyvanse abuse where Id rely a lot on drinking it, wither antioxidants and LThea made it not stressing, I had really was habitually drinking it as an escape in my life, prior and now it seemed to curve other drug abuse.

Only before this I had been drinking it with Poppies occasionally, but then it seemed to only be part of the comfort of the nod, & not as much as an elixir to go further on amphetamine. 

I definitely found it more rewarding then coca tea when using amp because coca actually seemed as a stronger diuretic and brought me down back to baseline quicker. About a half year later after getting into dark coffee to quit the amp, decaf to quit that, then sober.

 I got back into decaf, tea happily, but I knew that there where precautions as to the solvents used, so I got into water decaffeinated black, & green decaf.

I was at a point where I got to drinking delicate green decaffeinated, AT THIS point it was ALL about flavor, I COULDNT HELP BUT TASTE IT
AND EXCLAIM ABOUT THE FLAVOUR, I began adding lemon a lot, and truely the green brewing prior was like bighting into a lemon, in a different way though.  IT. JUST. TASTED. SO. FUCKING. GOOD. 
I’m a student now, so I cannot easily afford this and *bucks stopped letting me exploit their thing of single bags for 35 cents, without a cup or refill so I stopped so much. I got into the tea ceremony of Japan or how to serve it with food, heavy tea and a light tea with a full meal and light tea with a snack(I actually was following this for a while) heavy black having more theanine, green having GMA, and antioxidants. 

 Right now im on some lipton green*, which is heavy but green, I don’t follow the brewing preparation because it seemed to bring out the heaviness. Low temp means more antioxidants.
-- --
EDIT2: *water decaffeinated. I really have began to get a visual stimulation & addiction from the brewing itself becuase this stuff is so heavy. 
**white seemed to be a very variable, and sweet tea, when I would brew it it seemed to never be one thing; sometimes sweet, neutral, other times leaving the delicious, delicate green flavour in my mouth for a long time.
Oolong seemed to be very flavorful but mild, alot wouldnt be different than a little, but it needed to be handled with care as it would very easily infuse the brew with tanin.


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## Gormur

ektamine said:


> Weird, maybe you have a sensitive reaction to it.
> 
> I take ~200mg of theanine probably on average, every other night. I never recall feeling much at all from it. I'm going to do some reading on it and possibly try a higher dose tonight to see if I feel any anxiolytic or sedative effect.




It may be the formula i have, which might cross the BBB quite readily:


_*Supplement Facts*

Serving Size: 2 Softgels
Servings per Container: 30

Amount Per Serving	% Daily Value
Calories  11	
Calories from Fat  11	
Total Fat  1g  1.5%
Cholesterol less than 5 mg  2%
L-Theanine 200 mg	
Casein Tyrptic Hydrolysate 150 mg	
Natural Marine Lipid Concentrate 800 mg
DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid)  400 mg	
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic acid)  160 mg	

Other Ingredients: Natural marine lipid concentrate [fish (anchovy, tuna, sardine)], gelatin, glycerin, water, casein tryptic hydrolysate (milk), L-theanine, beeswax, soybean oil, mixed tocopherols, lecithin (soy), and caramel powder (color).

Contains: fish (anchovy, tuna, sardine), milk, soy.

This product is produced in a facility that produces products containing soy, dairy, fish, and crustacean shellfish.

Free Of
Wheat, gluten, corn, nuts, tree nuts, artificial flavors, and preservatives.
Metagenics Lumina™ Directions

Two softgels daily or as directed by your healthcare practitioner._


To add, effects are noticeable within 10 minutes and intensify for another 20 or so, so it takes roughly 30 minutes to _peak_.. And, um, i feel effects the entire day and into the next. It seems to have a cumulative effect as well - building up in the system over days

I haven't taken any today cause i'm still pretty chill from the 200mg i took yesterday.. tho not spaced out like i was earlier

Still, there's much research to be done... 


EDIT: Well it synergizes very omg nicely with d,l-amp (adderall IR). something about this is reminiscent of MDxx.. There's a pleasant dreamy-headspace with a feeling of deja vu and living in the moment. The zone out feeling from l-theanine alone is now a powerful feeling like i'm in a trance

Music sounds twice as good as on either one alone. I'm one with the music. Mind you i took only 200mg l-theanine + 15mg adderall (1/2 my 30mg dose)... I'll move up the dosage later this week and see how that goes

YMMV. I get the impression i'm not unique in this tho.. My mom is the physician who sends it to me and told me it was potent stuff. It's possible i'm just sensitive, but it seems more likely that this is a really potent product (expensive too, of course)

I can't fathom ingesting more than 600mg at a time TBH, and i'm not exactly the faint-of-heart type when it comes to a wide range of dosing


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## Onandoff

I use the brand that is in 150mg capsules.
Works well for me with just one 150mg cap.  It works well when you really have anxiety or feel uncomfortable.  5htp doesn't work that well for me with anxiety or sleep but l-theanine(suntheanine) is very effective for both mood and sleep.


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## jneff

Before you decide to take this supplement, see suntheanine side effects.  I'm currently training on a new job and was advised to take two tablets 200mg each in the morning.  First day three words one dizzy bitch.  It's that type of amount that is a level act as a sedative to sleep.  Not the best when your position is in an IT department for medical software billing and I'm temp to hire.  Don't listen to your mother that works in a health food store and has you as a guinea pig for new product material.  If you want to be "touched in the head", this is the way to do it.


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## atrollappears

jneff said:


> Before you decide to take this supplement, see suntheanine side effects.  I'm currently training on a new job and was advised to take two tablets 200mg each in the morning.  First day three words one dizzy bitch.  It's that type of amount that is a level act as a sedative to sleep.  Not the best when your position is in an IT department for medical software billing and I'm temp to hire.  Don't listen to your mother that works in a health food store and has you as a guinea pig for new product material.  If you want to be "touched in the head", this is the way to do it.



Haha welcome to bluelight.

It seems the effect varies a lot between people. I actually take ~ a gram of it to little effect. That's not to say it's not worthwhile for me, it's definitely relaxing and a nice sleep aid, but I don't really notice overt effects.


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## Herbal~Jah

I just bought a bottle of "200mg GNC 'Suntheanine' - L=theianine" (60 per bottle; and they were $32 at GNC!) and I personally think they work great if your feeling stressed out, or if you just want to relax b4 bed or even in the day, they really don't make you tired at all, they just relax me, but i can only use them once, maybe twice a week at most an get good effects. But i like em a lot, real good if use correctly..


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## DexterMeth

PhreakEDIT said:


> **** N.B. After writing this I realised that this post becomes a bit of a biochemistry rant, and ends up seriously diverging from anything written by the OP temporarily. I apologise for this in advance - I get carried away with this type of stuff  ****​
> ...yes, sort of. But what you just said there is the generic ("Do not take if on MAOI of any kind as it may dramatically increase plasma concentrations...") widely-thought view. It's actually so much more complicated than that. Most MAOI's [d]do[/b] potentiate the effects of drugs like stimulants and mushrooms/acid because they prevent the breakdown of the drug or its metabolites in the CNS, which obviously can be dangerous physically (for things that one can OD on - e.g. coke), or dangerous mentally (for things like mushrooms; it could make 1g feel like 5g, which could be massively overwhelming for a first timer, or even an experienced user thinking they were taking a low dose). Actually, come to think of it, the latter can actually cause major physiological problems because those kind of drugs do increase blood pressure/cause vasoconstriction etc... which - if prolonged - could be a serious issue.
> 
> Anyway, I digress. Basically, there is a lot of difference between all these different types of drugs. When 'legal highs' say something like "DO NOT TAKE IF ON SSRI'S OR MAOI'S" it's usually just to give the most scope of caution to the users. I mean, we all know how many people out there think that just because something is 'legal' or 'herbal' it means it's safe. And then we see BZP/Mephedrone/GBL related death due to lack of knowledge or research. The different mechanisms of action are actually quite important between all these enzyme inhibiting drugs. For example, oral DPT can _only_ be taken with an oral MAOI simultaneously or else it's broken down too fast. Same goes for supplements like PEA and l-Tyrosine (and, to some extent, l-Theanine) as these chemicals are broken down so fast within the brain, sometimes within about 0.5 seconds of them hitting your bloodstream. The point that I've been circumlocuting for the last two paragraphs (8)) is that - whilst the most common MAOI's will potentiate stimulants and the likes - the issue with Selegiline is slightly different because it's quite a unique MAO inhibitor.
> 
> Most prescribed anti-depressant drugs are non-specific MAO inhibitors. That is, they inhibit most - if not all - types of monoamine oxidase enzymes (these are pretty much what is responsible for moving around and modulating neurotransmitters in the brain). Seeing as most drugs (with the exception of most non-synthetic opiates, and GABAergic drugs...to an extent) practically rely on flooding the brain with either one of the aforementioned neurotransmitters, or in some way blocking their re-uptake, then it can be very dangerous taking certain courses of anti-depressants with Cocaine/Amphetamines/MDxx's etc.. as, if you have too much 'excess' serotonin and/or dopamine (to name two of the most commonly known ones) then it can cause hypertensive crisis, Serotonin Syndrome, tardive dyskinesia (to name a few) and, of course, death. Neurotransmitters are great when you're fucked on them, but not so great when you get fucked by them.
> 
> Deprenyl [Selegiline Hcl/Citrate] differs in the fact that it's an irreversible specific MAO-B inhibitor. This is a lot less "easy-going" than most other types (i.e. you don't have to be *as* careful with your diet or drug-intake). Extra-simplified, this basically means it partially stops the breakdown of dopamine in the brain, hence why people use it to treat Alzheimer's, Parkinsons and - if you're looking for the Nootropic value - to boost motivation and focus, as dopamine is heavily connected with these cognitive functions (being directly associated with the reward/pleasure centres of the brain). So, what happens is that, over time, you constantly have "extra" dopamine in your brain. This can lead to downregulation of the dopamine receptors: they are no longer as sensitive to dopamine molecules so after you stop taking it and you take drugs with high dopamine-receptor affinity (like Cocaine), your receptors don't 'notice' as much as you *technically* shouldn't get such a kick out of it. Obviously this can cause people to take more and *possibly* lead to overdose, but this is only in extreme conditions.
> 
> The problem with Selegiline - and what I was hoping someone with advance drug-chemistry knowledge could help me out with - is that, because it's classed as "irreversible" it can potentially take up to 40 days for MAO-B inhibition to return to normal, and possibly even longer for upregulation of dopamine receptors to occur (to return to their normal 'sensitivity'). I was just wondering if anyone had any definitive knowledge, or better yet, *personal experience*, with using Selegiline or a similar drug like Rasagiline and taking other drugs either, a) alongside it; or b) a few days after stopping treatment/self-medication?
> 
> I personally don't take anything like base or coke, but - when I have the availability - I take Adderall or Ritalin for a study aid. Both are almost structurally identical to the two street drugs on a molecular level so there's quite a bit of relevance there.
> 
> I know of the dangers to do with systolic blood-pressure when it comes to taking these two combined, but I take low enough doses for that to be a minor problem. Plus I have herbal antihypertensives to hand if things get really problematic. However, that's not my issue. What I'm more concerned about is the effectiveness if - say - Ritalin when taking Deprenyl...? I would usually only take 10-30mg oral/railed for study aid reasons; but if Deprenyl is going to cause severe enough downregulation of certain receptors then I don't want to end up taking 5x more Ritalin than normal, both due to economic reasons, and physiological complications...
> 
> Does anyone have any experience in this field? Perhaps even with regular MAOI's...? Any info is appreciated
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, that is pretty weird. 18g of L-Theanine is a LOT!! Are you sure it wasn't bunk stuff...?
> Do GABAegric drugs like the less tranquilising Benzodiazepines (Clonazapem, Temazepam, Midazolam...) have any effect on you at all?? I ask because L-Theanine is clinically/scientifically proven to have such a wide spectrum of effects on the brain and CNS that, theoretically, if you genuinely feel 'absolutely nothing' from a dose that massive then you shouldn't respond to a whole range of other, commonly-prescribed drugs.
> 
> Have a look at *this website*. I would actually advise anyone interested in L-Theanine to read this anyway as it's very concise and has the bare bones of what you would want to know - http://web-us.com/l-theanine_anxiety_reducer.htm). To Copy&Paste the most interesting/relevant bit(s):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _** Alpha brainwaves are the type generated in a sort of mild hypnagogic state, in the sense that you are alert but in an introspective and peaceful sort of way. You're in "alpha-mode" when you are meditating, listening to music you love, just before you go to bed etc.. not drowsiness or lethargy but more an intense immersive wakefulness; it's a relaxed and effortless alertness. When you're genuinely stress-free or totally comfortable somewhere or with someone you're probably in your alpha brainstate. This is why L-theanine is so versatile: you can take in excess of 500mg and be totally anxiety-free, or you can take slightly less and be in a relaxed yet motivated mood (hence why it's useful in a Nootropic Stack). I'm para-phrasing what is explained alot more articulately in the article and adding in a bit of subjectivism but this seems to be the general consensus*_
> 
> On a side note, this stuff goes amazingly well with other supplements or anxiolytic medicines. I'm prescribed Clonazepam (6mg a day) and have found that low doses of l-Theanine can really boost it's effects in terms of both duration and intensity. Not only that, but when I've been out of K-Pins I've taken a combination of L-Theanine, 5-HTP and L-Tyrosine (essentially, GABA:Serotonin:Dopamine - the ultimate long-lasting, all-round replacement) and it's worked FANTASTICALLY!
> 
> *The Monkey Mantra:* unless those 18g were fake then I really can't see how that's physically possible. I mean, that's a truly epic dose! I can understand an enzyme deficiency that may inhibit particular biochemical mechanisms, but that would also most likely mean you wouldn't respond to Benzos as well (unless you don't??) I suppose _one_ thing it could've been was that you took it on a full stomach...? It's an amino acid so you're s'posed to take it on as empty a stomach as you can manage so there aren't as many competitive proteases to prevent metabolism. Never take amino acids with a high-protein content meal, or after exercise.
> 
> I would recommend trying it again (at a dose of ~500-750mg) and perhaps in combination with dopamine and serotonin and GABA precursors: 5-HTP, L-Tyrosine, NALT, L-Trytophan, DLPA, L-Phenylalanine, Phenibut, Picamilon etc... to see if that'll do anything.
> 
> *EDIT -* Sorry, mitragyna; I've managed to completely hi-jack your thread with a whole load of irrelevant crap (those first few paragraphs). Didn't mean to do that, I apologise. I'll probably start a new thread somewhere else asking about all that other stuff.
> 
> Just out of interest - what kind of dose will get you where you want; how long does it last; and do you split it over the course of the day?


Much thanks to you for taking the time to write this.


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## DexterMeth

nuke said:


> It sure does something for me, especially when combined with piracetam, it's a very stoney relaxed kind of sensation but for some reason I can't sleep after taking a dose of it (or I'll sleep, but only for an hour or two then wake up).


I finally tried out suntheanine last night, a few hours before bed, and dosed it as well this morning.  It is very relaxing and calming, although I had the same issue of waking up every hour or two.

I just took it with piracetam about 30 minutes ago.  My day is already looking brighter.


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## Tussmann

I just don't believe in l-theanine. I think it has some very limited actions, but the rest is in your head -- especially the folk who claim 200 mg gets them buzzed lol...what a fucking joke.


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## DexterMeth

150mg seems to numb my feet some.   We're not playing one size fits all.  It seems to give me more of that "larger-open head space" feeling, than reducing stress.


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