# No weed pass, no cannabis, Dutch tell foreigners



## edgarshade

"A ruling from the EU's top court could mark the end of the Netherlands' welcoming coffee-shop culture"

'For more than thirty years tourists have flocked to the Netherlands to indulge in a legal high courtesy of the country's famously soft stance on weed. An estimated two million Britons alone visit Amsterdam each year with hundreds of thousands peeling off to sample some of the pungent goods inside one of the city's ubiquitous coffeeshops. Small border cities, meanwhile, can expect as many as three quarters of their regulars to be foreign. Maastricht – a southern offshoot of the Netherlands sandwiched between Belgium and Germany – receives an astonishing 2.1million drug tourists a year.

But the free-wheeling dope days may soon be over for British visitors if the Netherlands' new centre-right coalition government has its way. Following growing complaints over rising crime in the country's border towns – and a string of recent drug-related shootings in the south – the Dutch government has signaled its intention to ban foreigners from buying cannabis altogether.

Tomorrow [THURS], following a request for advise from the Holland's highest court, the European Court of Justice will decide whether such a ban contravenes European law, where free trade rules forbid discriminating against purchasers on grounds of nationality.

Confident of a favourable verdict stating that drugs are not subject to the same rules as legal goods, Justice and Security Minister Ivo Opstelten has already announced a plan to turn the country's 700 coffeehouses into private members clubs, effectively making them out of bounds for foreigners.

Coffeshop owners say they'll fight such moves in the courts and warn that any further attempt to crack down on the legal sale of cannabis will simply force people into the hands of criminals.'



'Banning sales to foreigners, meanwhile, might halt some of the traffic and crime problems in the border towns, but it would also deprive such areas of a major source of revenue in difficult economic times. An independent study in Maastricht commissioned by the coffeshops estimated that “drug tourists” bring in 141m euros a year. “That's the spend outside of the coffeeshops,” says Mr Josemans. “It doesn't even include the money they spend in here.”

Sitting in the office above his coffeeshop, a joint in had, Mr Josemans knows he has a fight on his hands. “Politicians have come at us before, but never like this,” he says. “I just hope they're thinking about the long term future. Not just looking for a quick way to win quick votes”.'

UK Independent

By Jerome Taylor in Maastricht
Wednesday, 15 December 2010

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/no-weed-pass-no-cannabis-dutch-tell-foreigners-2160631.html


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## silentangst

That's gonna kill the economy there. And various friends' travel plans.


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## FacedAgain

got their in october woo 

Actually i think this is going to be a really good test of the prohitbition theory. we have 30 years of statistics based around open coffee shops, now they are going to do a mini-prohibition experiment. every arrest, every shooting, every tourist dollar not collected. its going to be clear cut.

One thing they dont say is that there were suggests early on about letting the coffee shops grow 5 plants for each club member. this could be a thorn in the side since its prohibiting sale to forgeins, yet legitimizing the production (which is the cause of the violence)....


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## AmsterTram

It is not over yet.

We knew the way this case would go.   It never had a chance.   Cannabis is illegal but tolerated in this country.   Therefore, the EU court could never rule EU commerce rules apply.

Holland is a huge, export-oriented country, so it will not kill the economy but it will not be good.

But its NOT over, it has to pass the legislature and other things.    Then we have the Dutch way of ignoring laws (-:   They never really banned cig. smoking here.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/12/eu_court_clears_the_way_for_to.php


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## Herbal~Jah

Other European countries are forcing the Dutch to make their pot illegal to foreigners because the surrounding European countries are losing profits from their illegal drug dealings. Their citizens aren't buying their pot so they are forcing the dutch to make it illegal.


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## Atlien3

most of the shops are American owned now arent they?


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## raver2008

If this effects the econemy and raises crime not lowers it like it probably would it would definatly be shitty, but more shitty is the huge blow this will be to the movement towards leglizing pot. We want things moving forwards not taking a huge step backwards. that said I cant see this passing


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## Cerebral

what a shame.. certainly this will just create a black market


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## xtcnation

:O They cant do that, surely. Its discriminating banning foreigners. Weather its a drug or no drug its legal over there so its fair trade.


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## The Network

All the more reason to legalize it everywhere, amirite? You don't see gang shootouts over a bottle of vodka do you? No, because it's legal pretty much everywhere.

When's the last time someone grew some illegal tobacco and got their house robbed? Never, because it's legal.


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## shpongled1234

Oh well, looks like i missied my chance.


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## Janja

Shits going bad for weed decriminalization / legalization in general lately.

Proposition 19 failure, synthetic cannabinoid ban, now in this part of the world, nay, the very symbolic beacon of safe, recreational pot regulation, another setback.

Too bad really. It's gonna be a long time to switch public opinion. I also believe its all about making American mothers accept marijuana as it is; not evil, not a threat, not a source of chaos and disorder. It is a substance that can be used and abused. We need to be smart about making choices and deciding when to use and when not to, but we need to stop taking action in fear.

"_For those who think life is unfair,
cause I blow my smoke in the air,
as if no one were standing there,
then I'll roll one tonight,
for your sorrows_"


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## xtc123

paww what a shame


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## slimvictor

I was hoping that the pendulum would swing further before it started to go back.
Sigh. 
A sad piece of news for lovers of freedom of consciousness.


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## Wizzle

Good times for the street dealer. What's really funny is they connect two problems that are not connected.

1. We have criminals of Moroccan descent from the big cities cruising the border freeways to look for drug tourists to get em to selling spots (called drug runners). They are known to drive really reckless and box in unsuspecting drug seekers to tell them to follow.

2. We have the big money makers in the cannabis trade. Lots of  trailer park and real gypsie folk here. They have been immune from police for a long time because cops and politicians are scared of them. There is a municipality that does a pilot with legal coffeeshop supplying and the coffeeshop was bombed with a hand grenade and the mayor is un der 24-hour police protection. In Eindhoven there is a power stuggle going on with these guys, this is causing all the bad press. The Dutch are not really used to this excessive gun violence, especially outside of the Randstad region. 

3. Of course there is a hidden layer of real estate owners that rent out their places for growing operations; these guys (almost) never get caught though because they rent their places out in constructions where they can claim they didn't know. Lot's of times these are rich people that got rich doing legal business but are greedy enough to want a piece of the weed money pie.

Basically we're fucked. Because they're trying to solve the first second problem by making a pass system, which obviously won't do anything except make problem 1 worse. AND for that matter make all of the problems worse. 

Why don't people ask themselves why a cannashop that starts a pilot with legal supply get's bombed and the mayor of the municipality threatened. It's really drug war logic 101 and we're gonna make it worse by more repression. Our new government is retarded..

What's bad is that our liberal drug policy has to some extent actually made the problems worse. Because punishments for manufacture and trade of MJ are low and prodct can be legally evaluated at coffeeshops we became a major player in export of MJ. Theres lots of money to be made and that's why people are shooting eachother.  Really showing us that decriminalizing is not the way to go, regulation is. We ought to regulate production and sales all the way, and punish harshly the people that grow for export. People seem to forget sometimes that Holland is a major transport hub so we will never get rid of some major black market trade in our country, unless we close the ports and start living in keeps.


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## P A

> Theres lots of money to be made and that's why people are shooting eachother. Really showing us that decriminalization is not the way to go, regulation is.



Well said. And heartily seconded.


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## delta_9

I'm glad I spent 2 weeks in Amsterdam last month before it was too late


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## CaseFace

Yeah, decriminalization is certainly a huge step above traditional prohibition - but it has nowhere near the benefits of regulation. Regulation largely nullifies the black market making it available to adults but more difficult for kids to get their hands on it. Studies show it's easier for a middle schooler to get pot and heroin than alcohol and cigarettes. Why? Because the sale of alcohol and tobacco is *regulated.*

After all, the Government always claims decriminalization/regulation is bad because kids will get the wrong message and choose to do those drugs because of it. A, this is bullshit. Kids don't give a fuck if they want to do a drug they will do it regardless of what the government has to say about it. B, regulation takes away the easy access for kids.


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## Tiesto

awwwwwwwww no way man.  The netherlands was definitely on my future travel list - not solely for the coffee shops but those were a huge plus.


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## Sl33p3r

This is very disappointing to hear...completely illogical in my eyes. I am happy I visited when I did, although I really hope they do not pass this law. They will only be moving backwards and creating more crime.


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## debaser

My view is they will pass the law, and 6 months after they will come back to the current law because of the total failure of this new law.


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## szuko000

The problem is people go there just for weed. This wouldn't effect me going to amsterdam because I'd go mostly for tourism. It would be nice to be able to get high on vacation without that fear of getting arrested while on vacation but seriously why is it that when Dave Attel went there for his show it was all americans who couldnt give a shit about dutch culture. That is the part i dont like, you guys realize we have weed in the US right? If you grew it in optimum conditions it would be better then the coffee house product without the hassle of literally planning an international trip.

I'd really go for the flowers and my girlfriend wants to see the torture museum they have there. I'm still planning on going there at some point in my life, never really wanted to go for the weed.

This is not to say that I'm for prohibition, I'm merely saying I'm pro museums and flowers. Its just weed buy a 20 sack and act like your in amsterdam.


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## debaser

I'm going to the Dam for the flowers too.


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## szuko000

loulou reed said:


> I'm going to the Dam for the flowers too.



Lol I was talking about the botanical gardens with the actual flowers. I buy my drugs in the country i originate from. If given the chance id gladly patron a coffee shop but meh it was never "oh my god amsterdam must go there and smoke" like it was in high school when i was 15, 16. Now i actually want to see the world outside of a drug induced haze :D


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## tmaca

loulou reed said:


> My view is they will pass the law, and 6 months after they will come back to the current law because of the total failure of this new law.



Not gonna happen. The conservative government over there is using the same scare tactics the US government has used for years.  They both wildly exaggerate the effect of MJ (see if you can get a copy of an old movie called "Reefer Madness"), and tell the populace that all sorts of crime is due to drugs, ignoring the fact that most drug-related crime is caused by the very illegality of the drugs.  As often happens, the politicians are going to provide a knee-jerk "solution" to a problem, rather than trying to figure out what the cause really is and addressing it.  After all, voters don't want deep thinking, they want instant gratification.  Look at "3 strikes" in California, where a guy can end up with a 25 to life sentence for burglarizing a garage, stealing a bicycle from the back of a pickup truck and shoplifting a six-pack of beer (that is an actual case, by the way) because prosecutors, without reference to any court or judge, can, for purposes of 3 strikes, upgrade misdemeanors to felonies, even prior misdemeanors. 

Look how long it took to repeal prohibition in the US, and that was about a substance that the vast majority of citizens thought was perfectly alright to use.

Add in the fact that no politician anywhere wants to been seen as "in favor of" drugs, and if the "private club, citizens only" law passes, it will be one very long time before it gets changed.  If it ever does.


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## LSDMDMA&AMP

Ghey


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## Georgie25

If they do this, I will piss.


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## debaser

I wanted to hate the Dutch but it's not their fault, it's the fucking sons of bitches politicians. May they burn in Hell.


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## FullDarkNoStars

ya know, I always keep a pretty comfortable stash on me through my botany so finding the source is never the problem for me. Its just fucking unacceptable these strict airline drug laws


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## Killa-B

The results of such a law will be very interesting indeed, no doubt ruining the economy and opening up the blackmarket.


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## wombus erectus

There is no way this is going to pass. It's to much revenue for the country.


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## Suitcase

Why not just buy some herb, smoke it, and give off the "I'm a resident of this country" vibe? It might not work, but you could try it!


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## spini4

I posted this article a while back see:    http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=537423





The Dutch government said on Wednesday it wanted to ban tourists from buying cannabis in "coffee shops," where hash is on sale legally, as part of a national crackdown on drug use.

The Netherlands has one of Europe's most liberal soft drug policies and its coffee shops are a popular tourist attraction, especially in Amsterdam and border cities near Belgium and Germany.

But some cities near the border with Belgium have clamped down on drug tourism, and the Dutch minister for security and justice confirmed on Wednesday a wider crackdown after coalition parties agreed to push for a ban in September.

The government, which took office last month, has agreed to limit the sale of cannabis to Dutch residents to curb crime linked to its production and trading.

"No tourist attractions. We don't like that," the minister, Ivo Opstelten, told public broadcaster NOS on Wednesday.

"The heart of the problem is crime and disturbances surrounding the sale. We have to go back to what it was meant for: local use for those who would like it."

Amsterdam, home to 223 coffee shops, is already in the process of closing some in the red light district to tackle criminal activity in the area, and was studying the government proposal.

"We are taking the current practice as a starting point. It is not perfect but in many ways we have a functioning coffee shop system," an Amsterdam city spokesman said.

The government's plans for a tourist ban, whereby only holders of a resident's pass would be allowed to buy hash, has not yet been formally put into law and no timeframe has been proposed.

The possession of up to 5 grams (0.18 oz) of cannabis or hash is allowed in the Netherlands but large-scale production and transport is a crime.

continued at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40238429/ns/travel-news/


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## debaser

Apartheid is a dutch word, indeed.


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## Wizzle

loulou reed said:


> Apartheid is a dutch word, indeed.



exactly, they're also banning [removed an ignorant, offense word here] so their productivity will go up 8)


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## jspun

Holland has years of history and culture. That alone should be reason enough for a trip. California has good weather. It has hot chicks and good beaches. San Francisco is one of the most beautiful cities in the world. The US debt is getting up to 20 trillion dollars and CA is virtually bankrupt. Cards are probaly not hard to obtain for med MJ. Although not tax, revenue generated is put back in the economy and stimulates jobs and taxes indirectly. Plus, as far as pot quality, we have good indoor, but also some of the best climate in the world in the emerald triangle, photoperiod, ect...terroir if you will- which adds another dimension to whats on hand at the dispensaries. As I've said in previous posts, if prostitution is your thing it is legal in TJ and parts of Nevada. You can gamble in Nevada. CA has had in the past good E and psychedelics. If hard drugs are your thing Tijuana is one of the biggest and reliable open air markets in the world to be found for coke, meth, heroin, and some stuff in pharmacies with or without an Rx at select ones. So huddled masses of the world yearing to toke free, the Golden State, California is your place. We could all use the money that tourism generates.


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## nickels

slimvictor said:


> A sad piece of news for lovers of freedom of consciousness.




Yeah. 

It's unbelievable how far the prohibition issue is being pushed. Billions of dollars and countless nonviolent incarcerations all the time.


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## fryingsquirrel

I wasn't really planning on traveling to Holland to get some fucking weed anyway.


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## DOB

I want to live in there,how hard it is to become a Dutch?


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## debaser

DOB said:


> I want to live in there,how hard it is to become a Dutch?



You have to learn the language, which is like running backwards with your shoes two sizes shorter than yours.


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## HippieChick

I wish I had the money to go there.  Wish I had money for anything really.  Guess I could shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills up faster?


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## fattnessmonster

if this law passes, every single coffee shop will have a dutch guy outside of it with a sign saying 'will buy weed for tourists'.


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## nickels

HippieChick said:


> I wish I had the money to go there.  Wish I had money for anything really.  Guess I could shit in one hand and wish in the other and see which fills up faster?





Or instead of wishing, you could make it happen.


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## Khain

Herbal~Jah said:


> Other European countries are forcing the Dutch to make their pot illegal to foreigners because the surrounding European countries are losing profits from their illegal drug dealings. Their citizens aren't buying their pot so they are forcing the dutch to make it illegal.



this is the dumbest thing i've ever heard


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## jspun

> if this law passes, every single coffee shop will have a dutch guy outside of it with a sign saying 'will buy weed for tourists'.


 The problem is if the open air scene in the Dam isafe the way the open air scene used to be for hard drugs than you will get ripped off with overpriced oure quality crap. Better off staying home which is the intention of the law. CA has no such problem in the dispensaries, from what I've heard for the most part- quality varies. They have amsterdam, we have Oaksterdam and docs and dispensaries are easy to locate in most of the big counties. Plus the hard drugs in Mexico are cheap and decriminalized for small amounts. Kinda like Platzspitz park, Zurich which had a huge tolerated open air market from 86-92'. This led to the evolution of the Swiss Harm Reduction and government subsidized heroin maintenace. Southern California beaches like pacific beach in San Diego are unreal with beautiful people near the pier and canabis is tolerated in OB in general- there are Hostels near the beach in both areas. One used to be like on top or adjacent to a dispensary- but the flip side is the feds like closing them down (docs can you refer you to one thats open, good quality, Holland has Amsterdam, California has Oaksterdam.

But the bottom line is our tourist economy is in a slump and like I said we need the money. Maybe Greece should study decriminalization and bringing back the Tekedes (Hash Cafe's of the 1920's.) That whole scene launched a whole genre of Greek music, Rembetiko, the Music that is often associated with bouzouki. This is the Greek version of the blues (that was also cannabis influenced.)

As an aside, I've been to Saint Martin/ San Maarten (how ever you spell) which is split between the dutch and French in the caribean. The residents of the Dutch side were indiferent or almost hostile regarding dutch rule, the French seemed to like their French identity. The Paradox, we didn't find any buds (in 06' when i still tooked) on the dutch side but it was very easy to find on the French side by a nude beach, the exact opposite of what you would expect from the continent. Doesn't seem the dutch treat their possessions overseas as well as the French. Anybody else have this experience or have any theories about this? Their kindom's possessions in the Carribean are quickly disolving ties to the dutch queen.

0erry christmas and a Happy (western) New Year.


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## Wizzle

fattnessmonster said:


> if this law passes, every single coffee shop will have a dutch guy outside of it with a sign saying 'will buy weed for tourists'.



Right... He'll get you your weed and walk straight to his crack dealer to get his fix after he's served you. This is a great initiative for the homeless.. Thank you, Geert, Maxime and Mark (our honorable leaders)!!

edit: It's got to be said that the only reason they are able to push this through is the harsher drug laws in basically every country in the world. We wouldn't have the problems in the south if laws were the same. And it's not like we're giving out any of the free maintenence heroin to tourists either.


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## Blowmonkey

jspun said:


> Holland has years of history and culture. That alone should be reason enough for a trip.



Not for the people who just come here to buy drugs and have a good time. Most of the drug tourism comes from neighbouring countries anyways. Do you really think that those people will choose to go to California instead of Holland? One is accesible with a car the other with a plane. Yeah right. Enough with the advertisements already dude.


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## Herbal~Jah

Atlien3 said:


> most of the shops are American owned now arent they?



Well there is A LOT of "coffee shops" in the city of Amsterdam, and SOME are owned by Americans, the vast majority of them are dutch owned though.


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## kracks

I am British and live in Utrecht, the 4th largest city of the Nederlands. I am happy to report that i have not seen or heard anything of this law anywhere! I generally see more non dutch in the coffeeshops, and the people working there are more then happy to serve anyone over 18. In fact most of the people working there are NOT DUTCH!!!. I don't see how this could be enforced on the dutch people. Every i have spoken to think that the coffeeshop system is a good thing and makes them feel their country stands alone as being a haven for freedom of choice, similar to how they feel about their prostitution laws. 

The same cannot be said for their immigration laws, they all seem to agree those need to be addressed. They seem to hate how some immigrants, perticularly Morrocan youths, have not intergrated into dutch culture.


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## the outsider

loulou reed said:


> You have to learn the language, which is like running backwards with your shoes two sizes shorter than yours.



Such a ridiculous myth - Dutch is one of the easiest languages an English speaker could choose to learn.


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## dirtyoldman

edgarshade said:


> "A ruling from the EU's top court could mark the end of the Netherlands' welcoming coffee-shop culture"
> 
> 'For more than thirty years tourists have flocked to the Netherlands to indulge in a legal high courtesy of the country's famously soft stance on weed. An estimated two million Britons alone visit Amsterdam each year with hundreds of thousands peeling off to sample some of the pungent goods inside one of the city's ubiquitous coffeeshops. Small border cities, meanwhile, can expect as many as three quarters of their regulars to be foreign. Maastricht – a southern offshoot of the Netherlands sandwiched between Belgium and Germany – receives an astonishing 2.1million drug tourists a year.
> 
> But the free-wheeling dope days may soon be over for British visitors if the Netherlands' new centre-right coalition government has its way. Following growing complaints over rising crime in the country's border towns – and a string of recent drug-related shootings in the south – the Dutch government has signaled its intention to ban foreigners from buying cannabis altogether.
> 
> Tomorrow [THURS], following a request for advise from the Holland's highest court, the European Court of Justice will decide whether such a ban contravenes European law, where free trade rules forbid discriminating against purchasers on grounds of nationality.
> 
> Confident of a favourable verdict stating that drugs are not subject to the same rules as legal goods, Justice and Security Minister Ivo Opstelten has already announced a plan to turn the country's 700 coffeehouses into private members clubs, effectively making them out of bounds for foreigners.
> 
> Coffeshop owners say they'll fight such moves in the courts and warn that any further attempt to crack down on the legal sale of cannabis will simply force people into the hands of criminals.'
> 
> 
> 
> 'Banning sales to foreigners, meanwhile, might halt some of the traffic and crime problems in the border towns, but it would also deprive such areas of a major source of revenue in difficult economic times. An independent study in Maastricht commissioned by the coffeshops estimated that “drug tourists” bring in 141m euros a year. “That's the spend outside of the coffeeshops,” says Mr Josemans. “It doesn't even include the money they spend in here.”
> 
> Sitting in the office above his coffeeshop, a joint in had, Mr Josemans knows he has a fight on his hands. “Politicians have come at us before, but never like this,” he says. “I just hope they're thinking about the long term future. Not just looking for a quick way to win quick votes”.'
> 
> UK Independent
> 
> By Jerome Taylor in Maastricht
> Wednesday, 15 December 2010
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/no-weed-pass-no-cannabis-dutch-tell-foreigners-2160631.html



Hi,

while a lot of the college crowd spend a LOT of time in the coffee shops I'd say the VAST majority of visitors to the Netherlands while the visit a coffeeshop or two during their stay do a LOT more than sit around and smoke dope... 

even if it was a major reason for them to come.

but Paris, or Rome, or Florence are prettier cities, with better food, drink, etc.

London's museums are mainly even FREE...and I'm told it's not hard to cop (though quite frankly I haven't tried... I'd already "stocked up" in Amsterdam)

but really... the coffee shops are pretty tame now... they even have butchered them to have enclosed smoking rooms (which really screws up what had been some really nice/pretty/gezelliq(sp?) places... 

the one that tics me off the most is the Grasshopper on N.Z.Voorburgwaal (yea mainly a tourist spot) where to comply with the new demands for glassed off "smoking rooms" totally screwed up the really beautiful sun room in front which the owner had re-invested quite a bit in over the years... booths with glass dividers, newspaper racks over the seats so you could share your just read paper, etc...

I know I've spend many a  morning having a coffee, orange juice, and a pastry there while reading the newspaper (and yea to be honest probably rolling a joint for later)

you do not need a "smoking room" in a coffeeshop!  

you know why you're there, if you work there you know it's a smoking establishment (supposedly the smoking room thing is so that employees aren't exposed to secondhand smoke... you know if they're non-smokers (yea right))


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## theantiadult

they should not regulate it at all.


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## drunken_tory

It's like irish pubs banning foreigners from drinking guiness. Discriminatory.


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## Vlad the Impaler

drunken_tory said:


> It's like irish pubs banning foreigners from drinking guiness. Discriminatory.


they should be grateful guiness is horrible


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## wellDuh

The "winds of change" have been blowing hard for a number of now so I don't see much give on this from Geert Wilders.


If the goverment can stay together then it will go thur and maybe just maybe they'll work out something for cities like Amsterdam. 

My Dutch friends say its just a matter of time before Geert Wilders calls for a outright closing of all coffeeshops.
 such as>
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/12/maastricht_mayor_opposes_soft.php

Before anybody says it won't happen just look at the mushroom ban, everybody said "it can't happen" but it did.

Finally its  their  country to run as they see fit.



 I've been going to NL since 94 and try to visit 1-2per yr , if this ruling goes thur it will no effect on my visits.


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## orangelicker

At least now I won't have to hear other people talk about "that shit I smoked in Amsterdam." There's plenty of amazing buds in ohio. mmmhmmm.


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## Gormur

High crime isn't due to Dutch policies. It's due to neighbouring countries' policies that clash with the Netherlands' and lead to drug violence, pushing smuggling etc

Am i seriously the only one who sees that? 8)


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## debaser

^ Technically, cannabis isn't legal in The Netherlands either... and the supply to the coffeeshops is in a black zone no different to any black market.


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## YaniCZka

Well since lots of the tourists who come to Holland to get high behaves like pigs (esp british) I am not surprised. And lets not forget that stupid french bitch who couse ban on shrooms.  So I understand that normal dutch people would support this such 
law.


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## Gormur

loulou reed said:


> ^ Technically, cannabis isn't legal in The Netherlands either... and the supply to the coffeeshops is in a black zone no different to any black market.



True. It seems a lot like California in that regard; instead of cafes with dispensaries

People (in the industry, middlemen etc) divert large quantities of the medical mj here to other states (where medical marijuana and marijuana decriminalization don't exist) and up the price, which upsets me as these are the kinds of idiots who abuse a generous liberal system and cause setbacks

Mind you this is just one example out of many


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## blauwelichten

DOB said:


> I want to live in there,how hard it is to become a Dutch?



I honestly found them to be very unwelcoming to foreigners. I ended up hating them a little to be honest after forur years. Now I no longer live there, I can see what I liked about them in the first place, theyre alright, but they've been invaded by outsiders for years and feel like they are losing their identity. Germans are much more friendly and polite and welcoming unless youre  turkish. Getting  into the EU is hard now, you'll need a job offer and a grasp of the native language before you go.

I have a couple of passes already, some of the border towns already implement this system.


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## augustaB

The measures sanctioned at European level will allow local city councils to introduce local legislation to implement pass systems. The main city affected is Maastricht. Initially Maastricht wanted to shift its coffeeshops to the city's edge so that "nuisance" would be reduced. This suggestion was, however, effectively torpedoed by the deeply conservative and rural Belgian municipalities just over the border. 
The Netherlands currently has a minority right wing government supported by the extreme right so I suspect we are likely to see a continuation of these reactionary policies.


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## CannabisCanuck

noooooo, my dreams of amsterdamage.... ruined!!


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## crpwilliam

i have never been there but i want to go so bad!


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## Turing Machine

I disagree with a lot of the posters on here about the dutch model reducing crime. The primary problem with the dutch model is contrary to popular belief there is no legal production or importation, and much of the cannabis products sold in coffeeshops provide profit for organized criminals. When you legalize sales of cannabis in a country that is surrounded by nations where it is illegal and you don't allow any legal production you are going to in essence provide a haven for organized crime. Smugglers who export cannabis products to the surrounding countries where it is illegal. smugglers who import hashish from morocco, nepal, lebanon, india afghanistan and pakistan, large scale greenhouse and indoor producers who corrupt local authorities to make themselves "untouchable" and Holland has its share of "untouchable" figures all provide a source of income for organized crime. If the surrounding countries even took the same approach as the netherlands where cannabis consumption is legal for their own residents, then organized crime problem in holland would be eased quite a bit but by being an island surrounded by prohibition it does attract organized criminals.


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## rakketakke

Still buying weed in the coffeeshops as always... The cities themselves flip the big finger everytime... It's hard to believe if even any of this will be going through. Haven't seen anything on dutch forums either, seems I only hear about this from American news.

fucking idiots are in charge of the world.

Coffeeshops have a strict maximum amount of weed they can have in stock... these shops are being kept being supplied by the black market anyway... I've witnessed enough shop owners going down the back door and into a car a few blocks further on to retrieve another half kilo. 

heck I even know growers whom sell.

And the above poster is completely right... The state gets money from taxing the cannabis (YES IT IS TAXED) and the black market can get rid of a lot of product... 

& anyway for the above poster... Belgium/Holland is quite the notorious place for big and bulk chemistry.


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## j0k3r428

*In effect?*

Does anyone know how long until this goes into effect or if it is already in place?  I'm going at the end of the month for a weekend and I'm hoping I'll make the cut


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## rakketakke

I went to the coffeeshop today still haven't heard anything about it.


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## Syd_Barret

The dutch government is simply concerned.

I'm guessing its just a scare tactic.

They see shit is getting a little out of hand, issue a warning, everything goes back to normal.

The situation might indeed be broader than that, I'm not an expert, but I bet thats the case.

The netherlands NEEDS weed to be like this.. haha.. they make too much money on it.
Rofl


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## DavisK4high247

It has not affected Amsterdam yet, As far as I know it allows local citys to do the ban on foreiners, and I heard that Amsterdam is against this happening there at least, but it may be put into effect in Amsterdam if the city officials want to do this, although I predict a huge loss of revenue for Amsterdam if this happens in that city.
Where will High Times hold the Cannabis Cup,if tourists are not allowed to partake in Amsterdam?? Potugual has decriminilzed all drugs, from cannabis to heroin!! I imagine that Lisbon would love the money from the Cannbis Cup were it to be held there!!! Other European nations are making their laws on cannabis,and other drugs as well much more lax,so we may see a shift in cannbis tourism to those nations, although I do not know of cannabis shops there,If the money is great enough then some nation will allow cannabis cafes and cannabis tourism and The Netherlands will be left in the cold so to speak!


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## DavisK4high247

I have been to Amsterdam 6 different times in total, and 4 times to the Cannabis Cup, and the weed I have smoked in California,Canada, etc. is stronger than any of the Amsterdam weed with a few exceptions . I can obtain the same strains or much more potent strains of weed here in the US for a much cheaper price than a plane ticket to Amsterdam and al lthe othe rmoney spent there, especially since I have family members who grow high grade indoor strains in various places in the US. I can buy an enormous amoun tof weed for the price of a plane ticket alone!! lol..It's there country and if they want to lose tourist money then that's their choice. A bad one IMO, but one for them to make.


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## electronbloo

Never cared about going to the damn for that, the grass always seems greener on the other side right? Lots of trees in new jersey yo! Its all good.


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## debaser

That's good for you Americans, who have a lot of grade-A weed, but for us Europeans it's another story completely.


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## krysys10

raver2008 said:


> If this effects the econemy and raises crime not lowers it like it probably would it would definatly be shitty, but more shitty is the huge blow this will be to the movement towards leglizing pot. We want things moving forwards not taking a huge step backwards. that said I cant see this passing


I guess that whole prohibition experiment we tried back in the day never gets looked at as a great example of what NOT to do!


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## šljiva

I just hope that this 'law' doesn't come in effect soon since I'm planning to take a little visit to Amsterdam at the end of february =]


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## 3rd_I_blind

šljiva said:


> I just hope that this 'law' doesn't come in effect soon since I'm planning to take a little visit to Amsterdam at the end of february =]


The mayor and police captain of Amsterdam usually ignore these kind of laws.
Same with the prohibition on psychoactive mushrooms, they wouldn't enforce that law either.
So you can relax I guess.
Worst case, there's always some Dutch hospitality to be expected...locals supplying you or something similar.


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## davez

I was there on monday. No change no mention in the shops.


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## šljiva

3rd_I_blind said:


> The mayor and police captain of Amsterdam usually ignore these kind of laws.
> Same with the prohibition on psychoactive mushrooms, they wouldn't enforce that law either.
> So you can relax I guess.
> Worst case, there's always some Dutch hospitality to be expected...locals supplying you or something similar.



Cool.


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## listerine

Wahhh, I'm going in June...


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## 3rd_I_blind

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. 
Even in America where you can get like quadruple death sentence for having a patch of hash under your shoe, for most people it's easy to score some weed.
Now imagine the Netherlands, where every citizen above 18 yrs of age and with a valid passport can openly walk around with max. 30 grams of weed and buy an amount up to 5 grams in any coffeeshop that's opened.
How hard would it be to get some weed in the Netherlands compared to America, even if you can't get it yourself in the coffeeshop?


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## debaser

^ You're forgetting California where it's de facto legalized, well, where there are "dispensaries" everywhere.


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## 3rd_I_blind

I would choose quadruple death sentence over living in CA any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
But then again, I'm not living in the US and just talking bullshit anyways... 

OT: I have heard some good things of the CA weed legalisation though, something with also raising taxes on weed to aid in the disastrous financial situation.
Also some nice case-reports of medicinal cannabis use in CA, which was highlighted by one of our professors in a lecture.
Even had a picture of two elderly people getting shitfaced with a vaporizer, how I can imagine my stoner-buddies posing for such a picture in some 50 odd years. ;-P


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## wellDuh

3rd_I_blind said:


> The mayor and police captain of Amsterdam usually ignore these kind of laws.
> Same with the prohibition on psychoactive mushrooms, they wouldn't enforce that law either.
> )



Yes but the effect was still the same- no more mushrooms for sale.

 Job Cohen, he sure wasn't liked by the locals of Amsterdam
"WIJ Amsterdammers willen ONS Amsterdam terug!"


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## 3rd_I_blind

wellDuh said:


> no more mushrooms for sale.


...and up go the sales of the growkits by 1600%


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## wellDuh

3rd_I_blind said:


> ...and up go the sales of the growkits by 1600%



 Great I'll take a 14g box of fresh Copelandia Cyanescens just meet me at Schiphol CS  

The  Sclerotia are nice but those hawaiian mushrooms.....8(


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## garyh

these rumblings have been coming out of the netherlands for the las 3 or 4 years.

i still reckon we've got a good few years left as it is before anything will change


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## electronbloo

loulou reed said:


> That's good for you Americans, who have a lot of grade-A weed, but for us Europeans it's another story completely.



Is there really good weed in Spain?


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## Blowmonkey

3rd_I_blind said:


> Now imagine the Netherlands, where every citizen above 18 yrs of age and with a valid passport can openly walk around with max. 30 grams of weed



You can't carry 30 grams on you, that's 5, you can have a maximum of 30 grams at home though. 

The opium law is so silly, this cabinet is as well. Bleh.


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## dirtyoldman

*no need to change your travel plans*



silentangst said:


> That's gonna kill the economy there. And various friends' travel plans.



Hi,

remember cannabis was "illegal" for years and the coffeeshops operated openly... in fact there were MORE illegal coffeeshops than there are legal ones now.


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## Stickreid

Is it me or does this seem like a publicity stunt by the netherlands gov.  They obviously have seen over the past 30 years how much this helped the economy there...
 "Let's get all the potheads that wanna come here nervous so they will all flock here before the law doesent pass"

Or maybe they are getting stupider cuz they are high 24/7...


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## adeadcrab

Stickreid said:


> Is it me or does this seem like a publicity stunt by the netherlands gov.  They obviously have seen over the past 30 years how much this helped the economy there...
> "Let's get all the potheads that wanna come here nervous so they will all flock here before the law doesent pass"
> 
> Or maybe they are getting stupider cuz they are high 24/7...



Well if there are legitimate concerns over drug-related shootings they're probably not trying to pander to easy votes. Either way it's really stupid. They could tax the substance a bit more and spend more on police to patrol problem areas.


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## EuphoricBliss2

Wait until they lose 95% if not all of their tourism. If they want to ban it, they will have to ban it completely, not just discriminating against forigeners. Their economy will plummet, drug and crime rates will go up (if its not legal, gangs will take over supplying the demand), violence will then go up, etc. this is a shitty idea


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## 3rd_I_blind

LOL, our economy will plummet because we ban the sales of cannabis to foreigners?
And of course...100% of tourists visit the Netherlands because they can get cannabis legally.
What a load of BS, seriously... 

Crime rates are already increasing, because the East-European maffia is taking over the supply of cannabis to the coffee shops.
I agree that banning the sales of cannabis to tourists is not going to help with this, but it is also not gonna increase crime rates.
They should put the cultivation of cannabis in government hands, that's the best way to prevent criminal interference.

But spare me the 'OMG Netherlands is gonna lose all their tourism/economy if they ban cannabis sales' bullcrap...


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## wellDuh

EuphoricBliss2 said:


> Wait until they lose 95% if not all of their tourism.




Oh please the highest numbers I've were under 20% of tourist.


*3rd_I_blind*
I'm going be waiting for my box of fresh Copelandia Cyanescens on my next trip, Dance Valley `11 - tickets already in my pocket
Schiphol CS  9am LOL


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## davez

If they banned coffeeshops to tourist I'd sure as hell still go there. It's the not just the cannabis that makes it special.


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## debaser

At least there are still the whores.


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## 3rd_I_blind

> I'm going be waiting for my box of fresh Copelandia Cyanescens on my next trip, Dance Valley `11 - tickets already in my pocket
> Schiphol CS  9am LOL


Too bad mate.
Dance Valley is for pussies, pussies should not use psychedelics. 

But you are kindly invited to send me a PM.
I will invite you to some real nice festivals.
Like psytrance society in the woods, where you can just pick your shrooms off the ground.
LOL, jk...but the invitation still stands! ;-P


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## djep

davez said:


> If they banned coffeeshops to tourist I'd sure as hell still go there. It's the not just the cannabis that makes it special.





loulou reed said:


> At least there are still the whores.



And beans with 180mg of MDMA


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## davez

djep said:


> And beans with 180mg of MDMA



I've not come across these!


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## 3rd_I_blind

davez said:


> I've not come across these!


Too bad mate, quality of the tablets is definitely at the highest point in about two years.
I see new reports about 150-180 mg XTC every week.
Of course there are also the 90-120 mg tablets, but enough of the high-end stuff to go around. 

And what's even more satisfying: mCPP containing tablets seem to be dying off in the NL.


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## davez

3rd_I_blind said:


> Too bad mate, quality of the tablets is definitely at the highest point in about two years.
> I see new reports about 150-180 mg XTC every week.
> Of course there are also the 90-120 mg tablets, but enough of the high-end stuff to go around.
> 
> And what's even more satisfying: mCPP containing tablets seem to be dying off in the NL.



haha well I'm going to 5 days off festival in march so I'll see what I can get then! 

I love holland so much I take it your from holland originally?

But All the things about tourism dying if the weed pass comes in is bollocks. I'm a frequent traveller and people goto munich or london or madrid or whatever and none of them have legal drugs or prostitution. Amsterdam is an international city up with the best of them coffeeshops or no coffeeshops. That said I fucking love the coffeeshops and I don't want them to close.


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## wellDuh

3rd_I_blind said:


> Too bad mate.
> Dance Valley is for pussies



Well I was coming over for my 5th Trance Energy  till ID-T changed the format, (bastards) so dance valley was booked. 







3rd_I_blind said:


> I see new reports about 150-180 mg XTC every week.
> Of course there are also the 90-120 mg tablets, but enough of the high-end stuff to go around.



Oh hell yeah the molly,pills,caps are the worlds best

The last batch tested @ 170mg  with other batchs all above 120mg (120-154mg) I don't have the numbers for the molly but it was goooooood8(

Hippy flipping  @  Tiesto @ Matrixx 22.9.07 (Nijmegen, NL)
"synesthesia"


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## 3rd_I_blind

wellDuh, I tried to message you, since we are going way off topic here.
But it seems I can't send you any private messages? 

Good to know Netherlands is still in the top three when it comes to good stuff.
I feel so sorry for most of the people on here.


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## wellDuh

3rd_I_blind said:


> wellDuh, I tried to message you, since we are going way off topic here.
> But it seems I can't send you any private messages?
> 
> Good to know Netherlands is still in the top three when it comes to good stuff.
> I feel so sorry for most of the people on here.




Fixxed

Yeah my Dutch friends always make sure my visits are fun %)  been that way since `94. 
Now if the weather was only nicer, its damn cold to someone from Fla.


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## Escapedysphoria

Damn I wanted to vist Amsterdam to expirience the freedom and the coffee shops, but I guess if this "private club" bullshit goes through than I'm gonna be crossing that off my list. That's just ridiculous. At least michigan legalized medical marijuana, I'll be able to take a trip up north from ohio and get myself a card due to some diagnosed medical conditions. Sounds easier


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## suessmayr

AmsterTram said:


> It is not over yet.
> 
> We knew the way this case would go.   It never had a chance.   Cannabis is illegal but tolerated in this country.   Therefore, the EU court could never rule EU commerce rules apply.
> 
> Holland is a huge, export-oriented country, so it will not kill the economy but it will not be good.
> 
> But its NOT over, it has to pass the legislature and other things.    Then we have the Dutch way of ignoring laws (-:   They never really banned cig. smoking here.
> 
> http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/12/eu_court_clears_the_way_for_to.php




Do individual European countries' Supreme and High Courts submit to the jurisdiction of the EU unconditionally? How does the law regulate this kind of relation?


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## raggedy_acid

How to get citizenship..........?


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## Wizzle

They are once again there.. Recently a press release has gone out that there are lots of pills higher then 140mg going around, which is perceived as dangerously high because one pill is too big a dose for most people..


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## Dewsta26

Makes me veeery veerrrryy sad to think the Dam might close its coffee shops.

I went in November last year and it all just works, its crazy but its true. Dutch people are really cool, and the amount of substance abuse doesnt happen as much because kids have got a choice!!

Based on the Dutch people we got talking to over there, and from reading a few of there magazines, I would predict that if the general dutch public dont want a law, they stand and fight for there cause, and win!! Coming from England, (a very structured, small minded, and over-lawed country- sometimes) I had never experienced such a liberal place, no maybe not liberal, such a place where the common human sense and thinking, actually took part in policing, schooling, drugs, sex etc etc.

imo Holland is a 'human' country, it has a 'heart', and ultimately the people have the 'power' to make changes.

Shame the UK government are so stuck up there own arse's, so our peoples voice goes on deaf-shit filled ears


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## DOB




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## my innerself

It sucks that I might not get the chance to sit around and get stoned off my face in a coffee shop in Amsterdam, but let's face it how hard is it to get qaulity weed anywhere else in the world??? Piece of piss.


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## mycotoxin

Quantum_Think said:


> For this reason, i'm sure that i want this law to pass.



Fuck no! Dont say that dude!! It may be no big deal to you in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and you may look at it as an interesting experiment but this is the place us Europeans go to smoke the best weed in the world in total freedom and safety.
Dont jinx us,bro!


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## davez

tbh it's gonna be like the whole tobacco ban in the coffeeshops.

Every single coffeeshops I've been in allows tobacco smoking despite it not being allowed...


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## wellDuh

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2011/02/eindhoven_joins_opposition_to.php

Eindhoven joins opposition to cannabis pass system

Wednesday 09 February 2011

Eindhoven city council has come out against government plans to introduce a registration for cannabis users to make sure tourists are kept out of ‘coffee shops’ where small quantities of soft drugs are sold.

Den Bosch and Maastricht city councils have already voted against the plan and the four big cities of Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam and Utrecht have also pledged to campaign against it.

The new government has not yet given any more details on its plans to turn coffee shops into closed clubs. However, opponents of the scheme say it will lead to an increase in street dealing.

© DutchNews.nl


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## 3rd_I_blind

It's a full blown revolt in here tbph.
We're all just waiting till the first hardcore smoker lights himself on fire in the house of parliament.

Too bad the whole world is focused on Egypt and the like...


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## deficiT

This is definitely a good thing happening, it will hopefully show the numerous other ignorant countries the bullshit of their ways in making cannabis illegal.


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## BeenArrested4Pot

In b4 close!!!! Lol


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## slimvictor

I was just in Amsterdam last month.
No problems buying weed, which is still flowing, and flowing, in the highest qualities imaginable.


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## DwnSouthPillPopper

slimvictor said:


> I was just in Amsterdam last month.
> No problems buying weed, which is still flowing, and flowing, in the highest qualities imaginable.



I was there in January for 7 days and things were as normal. Barneys was still kickiing as well as damps..lol.. Even found some bomb as rollls.. Gotta luv it.


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## MyWayIsTheHighWay

Well I'm glad I went this past summer before anything radical happens, if it does. I had heard some of the locals talking about it. I thought at the time they were just blowing smoke, excuse the pun, to get us to go all out and spend more. Like there wasn't going to be an Amsterdam tomorrow. I guess there may be some truth to what I was told.


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## Herbal~Jah

So has anyone been to Amsterdam RECENTLY? Tell us, what is going on over there right now... What's going on with this ban? and also, even if I was a dutch citizen who smoked cannabis, I would not want this law to pass b/c it says that cannabis users will be documented and registered so they can keep the tourist out... but why would i want to be registered as a "cannabis user" ?? I bet the dutch gov't has some secret plan where if your a "registered cannabis user" then you will not qualify for health insurance or some shit.


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## 3rd_I_blind

Still nothing changed in here. Isn't it obvious someone would have mentioned it by now if legislation actually would have changed!?  It's not like I am the only Dutch user of this forum, and in fact you don't even have to live in the Netherlands to actually find out about such matters. So quit all your worrying and book those tickets to Amsterdam! 



Herbal~Jah said:


> I bet the dutch gov't has some secret plan where if your a "registered cannabis user" then you will not qualify for health insurance or some shit.


LOL, it's not like we're living in fucking America all of a sudden. No conspiracy bullshit here. Sorry, but this kind of conspiracy bullshit-theories pisses me off...  We actually _have_ a humane healthcare system in the Netherlands, where you are not royally fucked if you require some kind of expensive treatment, and it is not even _allowed_ to be excluded from health insurance in here.


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## debaser

3rd I blind, a little off-topic question: do you find some fresh Kashmir hash in the Dam? If so, I'm planning a little trip next time.


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## Lsd4eva

Wen do they plan on banning people from goin


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## 3rd_I_blind

loulou reed said:


> 3rd I blind, a little off-topic question: do you find some fresh Kashmir hash in the Dam? If so, I'm planning a little trip next time.


I asked a few of my hashish-loving friends and they say it should be easy to find. However, as with al drug-related business, chances are they just sell any hash as 'Kashmir' if that makes the profit go up.


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## debaser

^ The smell of Kashmir is recognizable within 20 feet. I'm good at blind tests with connoisseur hash.

When I was in the Dam in 2000, there wasn't any kashmir hash to be found (because of the war in Kashmir), but now the war is over, that's why is asked the question


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## Squeaks

Countires I wanna visit before I die...

Amsterdam... check
Amsterdam... uncheck.....

I don't even smoke weed( I hate the stuff) but to be able to visit such a tolerate society after living in the u.s. almost all my natural life would've been a great to experience...... I can totally see business decline with foreigners hence there profitabilty in tourism decline dramastically......


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