# It?s gotten insanely toxic in CE&P. Please read and discuss in a civil manner



## Droppersneck

This is the next sub forum to die, as the conservative posters are picked off for being ?off topic?, ?posting in the wrong thread?, wrong think, etc.. As these highly partisan tactics are used to silence dissent, I see the sub forum becoming the next iteration of the lounges fall into alienation and solitude. I?m literally only bringing this up for Bardo would want me to, that dude was far left but managed to see eye to eye with most of us, and kept the sub forum thriving with different ideas/debate/ cohesion. I can?t sing his praises enough, as he was a great person and transcended partisanship somehow, but I can?t help but feel like he would have wanted me to say something before we all decided to leave and left the site as it turned into the perpetual circle jerk certain folks have so longed for. Wasn?t sure if I could even post this sadly, if my adult language/frankness would be acceptable. If this is too much I understand, I?ll delete or I?m sure someone else will. 

Droppers


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## JackiePeyton

Hakuna Matata https://www.npr.org/2017/10/17/560190751/robb-willer-how-do-we-bridge-the-political-divide


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## PriestTheyCalledHim

Droppersneck said:


> This is the next sub forum to die, as the conservative posters are picked off for being ?off topic?, ?posting in the wrong thread?, wrong think, etc.. As these highly partisan tactics are used to silence dissent, I see the sub forum becoming the next iteration of the lounges fall into alienation and solitude. I?m literally only bringing this up for Bardo would want me to, that dude was far left but managed to see eye to eye with most of us, and kept the sub forum thriving with different ideas/debate/ cohesion. I can?t sing his praises enough, as he was a great person and transcended partisanship somehow, but I can?t help but feel like he would have wanted me to say something before we all decided to leave and left the site as it turned into the perpetual circle jerk certain folks have so longed for. Wasn?t sure if I could even post this sadly, if my adult language/frankness would be acceptable. If this is too much I understand, I?ll delete or I?m sure someone else will.
> 
> Droppers



I agree with your post.  I am not even politically conservative and I've read how this has happened.

Unfortunately CEP has gotten way too biased, and the moderators/admins or certain favorites of the moderators/admins basically have turned into the politically correct police and get offended over things that outside of academia and bluelight, are not offensive, and are not really even actually racist, fascist, actual hate speech, etc.

Even though certain admins and moderators will now claim or post in this thread and elsewhere, "that there's no political bias at all here..." it is true that if you post anything that certain people do not agree with that your post or threads will be edited, deleted, or you will get warned/infractions/banned, called racist, fascist, or other slurs/accusations that are not true, etc. and people who post pro-leftist BS are allowed to flame/harass people who do not agree with the leftist rhetoric.


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## Droppersneck

PriestTheyCalledHim said:


> I agree with your post.  I am not even politically conservative and I've read how this has happened.
> 
> Unfortunately CEP has gotten way too biased, and the moderators/admins or certain favorites of the moderators/admins basically have turned into the politically correct police and get offended over things that outside of academia and bluelight, are not offensive, and are not really even actually racist, fascist, actual hate speech, etc.
> 
> Even though certain admins and moderators will now claim or post in this thread and elsewhere, "that there's no political bias at all here..." it is true that if you post anything that certain people do not agree with that your post or threads will be edited, deleted, or you will get warned/infractions/banned, called racist, fascist, or other slurs/accusations that are not true, etc. and people who post pro-leftist BS are allowed to flame/harass people who do not agree with the leftist rhetoric.



Yes, you are one of the ones I was thinking about. You’re not conservative but don’t follow the same stream of consciousness pushed by the current mod team, so you are subsequently ostracized. Jgrimez also concerns me, that dude has been one of the most learned best informed bluelighters, posting in good faith. Yet constantly banned and harassed for being “off topic” or being mean to the Clinton's, etc. I’m confused, as to why an echo chamber is even considered optimal. The forum is clearly driven by conservative/libertarian/ realist view points. I just want to see a fair shake again, bc I enjoy and see value in discussion on CEP. I’m dropping all of my shit here, the site has nothing to lose and is quickly moving into obscurity. This is my last ditch effort, but maybe I should just be banned idk, feel like Im speaking up for the people that don’t have a voice or aren’t willing. Guess we aren’t hearing from others bc they assume this is in bad faith or don’t want to address this very real issue. It is what it is and I truly don’t mind if folks attack me personally if it’s constructive, and maybe the site moves to a better more tolerant place. To most here I will be considered to be trolling, but like with BP I’m 100% serious.


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## Rio Fantastic

I am really glad someone has stepped up and said this. I have noticed this for the past year or so with it becoming _really_ obvious in the past 2-3 months. It was subtle at first, but then it's as if when it became more & more apparent that the vast majority of the regular posters weren't just left leaning but complete leftists then certain moderators realized that they could use their moderator powers to push their agenda without fear of real rebuke since there wasn't enough regular posters on the other side to raise any significant protest. It kept getting worse & worse until reaching the point its at now where it's devolved into a total hive-mind echo chamber and since all of the moderators are a part of it there's nobody to keep balance.

The formation of an echo chamber is almost inevitable on any platform when the issue is one as divisive as politics and where the proponents for one side are the significant majority of the members and it's clear that this happened a long time ago on CEAP. On a functional message board that officially is not meant to have a partisan bias, however, the moderators are supposed to ensure that debate & discussion is encouraged so that the minority can still have a voice and are free to argue against the status quo without fear of harassment or brigading or other malicious methods of silencing. The moderators don't have to be perfectly neutral, robotically carrying out their duties with vulcan detachment, but it is possible for actual good moderators to uphold the rules and moderate fairly despite their personal political opinions, and shaking up CE&P and instating a new team of moderators is way overdue IMO.

The crazy thing is that I'm actually a left-leaning liberal myself. I despise fascism and nationalism and racism and all the other ugly facets of the worse side of the right, but I try to be open-minded enough to not tar all conservatives with the same brush and I'm realistic enough to know that the majority of conservatives abhor those things just as much as I do, but despite the fact that I agree with the status quo there I saw too many posts removed, threads deleted & people harrassed for the simple crime of being conservative. I'm so glad you have spoken up about it - I would have done it myself, but I don't have enough clout and am not a recognizable name and worried that I might get banned for sharing my views, so I am happy that you have done this Droppersneck, good job!


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## zephyr

I have been infracted whatever the hell for questioning mod decisions etc and obv theres more to that so invite staff to make public everything thats been said plus all disciplinary action incurred so the clear picture is available.

I can do so myself at risk of yet again infractions but i dont want to give you the satisfaction.

So go ahead cep team and anyone else..  I mean hell guido already made that one public and I should be pissed at him but the reactions of my mates was so funny it was worth it 

Nothing personal about you, the initial instigator of action.  Your name was never made available.

.


Lets show everyone just how all your actions are justifiable.

Hey lets have a show and tell!  Why not hey?  


 This place has gone beyond a joke.

Its pretty clear jgrimez is being picked on as you paranoid mods think hes an alt right?


Lol yeah apparently I am one too,   you know better that a couple in a relationship who is posting what (rip scuba)  so if so then prove it or stfu.

As you are not following your own guidelines as it is.

It would be stupid to post there at all,  no body should.  Its not worth it.


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## PriestTheyCalledHim

zephyr said:


> I have been infracted whatever the hell for questioning mod decisions etc and obv theres more to that so invite staff to make public everything thats been said plus all disciplinary action incurred so the clear picture is available.
> 
> I can do so myself at risk of yet again infractions but i dont want to give you the satisfaction.
> 
> So go ahead cep team and anyone else..  I mean hell guido already made that one public and I should be pissed at him but the reactions of my mates was so funny it was worth it
> 
> Nothing personal about you, the initial instigator of action.  Your name was never made available.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> Lets show everyone just how all your actions are justifiable.
> 
> Hey lets have a show and tell!  Why not hey?
> 
> 
> This place has gone beyond a joke.
> 
> Its pretty clear jgrimez is being picked on as you paranoid mods think hes an alt right?
> 
> 
> Lol yeah apparently I am one too,   you know better that a couple in a relationship who is posting what (rip scuba)  so if so then prove it or stfu.
> 
> As you are not following your own guidelines as it is.
> 
> It would be stupid to post there at all,  no body should.  Its not worth it.



As someone who was once a moderator of multiple forums here on bluelight, and joined in the early 2000s under a name before this one, I agree with your post.  I also was warned/infracted just because I reported a private message from a troll, and I was de-moded because I would report the posts of the troll including when in the dark side they told some suicidal teenager/young adult to write suicide notes to their parents.

I saw a youtube video someone made about this site that was since taken down, and I agree with a lot of it, and this place used to be about harm reduction but it hasn't been this way in a long time, and you even had people who were moderators buying/selling drugs via this site and admins/staff/moderators could have cared less or allowed it to go on.  Some people here seem to let power or their bias go to their head.


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## PriestTheyCalledHim

Rio Fantastic said:


> I am really glad someone has stepped up and said this. I have noticed this for the past year or so with it becoming _really_ obvious in the past 2-3 months. It was subtle at first, but then it's as if when it became more & more apparent that the vast majority of the regular posters weren't just left leaning but complete leftists then certain moderators realized that they could use their moderator powers to push their agenda without fear of real rebuke since there wasn't enough regular posters on the other side to raise any significant protest. It kept getting worse & worse until reaching the point its at now where it's devolved into a total hive-mind echo chamber and since all of the moderators are a part of it there's nobody to keep balance.
> 
> The formation of an echo chamber is almost inevitable on any platform when the issue is one as divisive as politics and where the proponents for one side are the significant majority of the members and it's clear that this happened a long time ago on CEAP. On a functional message board that officially is not meant to have a partisan bias, however, the moderators are supposed to ensure that debate & discussion is encouraged so that the minority can still have a voice and are free to argue against the status quo without fear of harassment or brigading or other malicious methods of silencing. The moderators don't have to be perfectly neutral, robotically carrying out their duties with vulcan detachment, but it is possible for actual good moderators to uphold the rules and moderate fairly despite their personal political opinions, and shaking up CE&P and instating a new team of moderators is way overdue IMO.
> 
> The crazy thing is that I'm actually a left-leaning liberal myself. I despise fascism and nationalism and racism and all the other ugly facets of the worse side of the right, but I try to be open-minded enough to not tar all conservatives with the same brush and I'm realistic enough to know that the majority of conservatives abhor those things just as much as I do, but despite the fact that I agree with the status quo there I saw too many posts removed, threads deleted & people harrassed for the simple crime of being conservative. I'm so glad you have spoken up about it - I would have done it myself, but I don't have enough clout and am not a recognizable name and worried that I might get banned for sharing my views, so I am happy that you have done this Droppersneck, good job!



I agree with this as well.  I'm neither Conservative, or leftist enough for CEP, but in CEP I was branded as being fascist, racist, and other such nonsense simply because I did not 1,000% agree with everything being posted by leftists there.

Of course when I pointed this out, I was vehemently told both in public and in private that this sort of thing does not happen, that nobody that's a moderator or favorite of a moderator was being allowed to troll and post stuff towards people who they did not agree with or personally like, that would get anyone else warned/infracted/banned because they used what's deemed hate speech, or are trolling by the BLUA.


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## CosmicG

I agree that this is a real problem, and it's kind of sad none of the moderators have anything to say in regards to what is being said.

I also believe this thread would be taken a lot more seriously if it were posted by someone that wasn't constantly trolling and stirring the pot in an attempt to get a reaction that can then be exploited and made fun of on another platform.

Oh well.


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## alasdairm

CosmicG said:


> I agree that this is a real problem, and it's kind of sad none of the moderators have anything to say in regards to what is being said.


i can only speak for myself but i know i try to hold back a little so that people have an opportunity to have their say first. i imagine that if staff weighed in first and often, they'd be criticised for flooding the thread and not letting people have a say 



CosmicG said:


> I also believe this thread would be taken a lot more seriously if it were posted by someone that wasn't constantly trolling and stirring the pot in an attempt to get a reaction that can then be exploited and made fun of on another platform.


indeed. perhaps that's why staff are, for now, electing to not respond.

alasdair


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## Soso78

Doesn't matter who started the thread. Everyone knows what goes on in cep. The forum mods are all left wing and heavily censor its content by banning or infracting anyone with views different to theirs. If they can't find a reason to ban someone they invent one.
Ali
Sj
Swillow
Cduggles 
Mainly sj and Ali and the rest just haven't got the balls to disagree.


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## zephyr

In the absence of a genuine,  approachable voice of reason that has the inate ability to take off the mod uniform and mingle with everyone like they all matter (and believe me we all do regardless of what anyone says otherwise),  I strongly urge anyone who has been lurking this thread to read this,  absorb it and hope to hell TLB's words still apply.


There have been a number of attempts to address cep issues,  Im not denying any wrongdoing or temper from me and accept any flak I get.

I do not accept that stunted silence,  brush offs, the hive mind pack mentality in the plugging hole though as my issue.

There is clearly an overuse of moderation and is the worst that Ive ever seen since the vanth era in aus social.  The guidelines have been skewed to the detriment of some members while not applied equally to staff members who post there.

I havent seen anyone else ever required to do their own scientific research personally to have a right to their opinion, for example.   Is that what we all have to do as getting core ice samples is quite an expensive time consuming mission.

TLDR,  just read this.




			
				 TheLoveBandit 2009 said:
			
		

> I am willing to bet this is probably the longest thing I've ever written on this site...and I've written a lot. I'd be amazed if anyone actually reads the whole thing, I'm not sure I could - certainly not in one sitting.
> 
> But what could bring me to this point? How could I possibly have anything left unsaid at this late entry? What was the magic fuel that outpaced the meth effect and made cocaine look like sleeping powder for it's motivational effect? I suspect GM is sitting back smugly basking in the biggest troll in the history of this site - I'd give that about 5% credit. If I know GM like I think I do, the level of intelligence behind his comments also pumps his ego to think he's shared vital information for the life of the site that will finally bring about change that is so desperately needed within (sr) staff. I'd give that about 3% credit as it's greatly overvaluing his contribution, but more importantly he's didn't invent this wheel. I'd probably give about 10% to the need to address a lot of misinformation written here specifically. Granted, he's a featured part of this diatribe, but that's primarily because he's been a fountain of misinformation, on facts he knows better about but preferred to play martyr for his fan base. He is not an agent of change, he's merely offered speaking points which we can clarify for the public.
> 
> That's the bigger motivation, to set the record straight on things a lot of people probably don't know (even though most of it is available to them if they weren't so fucking lazy...which is wrong of me to say, because they may not even know where to look). But the strongest driving factor is that this site is ALWAYS in need of improvement - but it is consistently falling short, usually by a lack of effort by the members. :gasp: members? Yeah, members.
> 
> As longest serving admin (and possibly one of the longest serving staff members in general), I've seen a lot of shit go down. I've survived some unbelievable turmoil on this site, and put in a LOT of time at every level of membership (except banned....I don't think I've tried that one yet). The point is, I feel compelled to act as I see best for this site. A big part of that is asking 'what is missing, how do we get it?' or 'what is really wrong?' The thing is, members typically see a lot of things that are wrong, that people inside the machine can't see - and sometimes those people inside the machine ARE the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> A history lesson, for those of you who don't remember it. The major players in the story would be xtcxtc (site benefactor who paid to get us where we are, but has since passed on), skydancer (one of the site founders, long term admin), and a missing C-22 (then sole Sr. Admin). The plot, let's just say this thread wouldn't even be a shoelace on that centipede (gawd, that was an awful metaphor, apologies). Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Skydancer -- A Democratic Bluelight. Still in the public domain, and an example of this site being at it's worst. The effects of it are still echoing amongst staff that were here (even as members) at that time. A time when site management really did need to be overthrown and radically overhauled. Read it if you will. At 21 pages, you can consider my novella here as a primer.
> 
> 
> 
> Having experienced that, there are a few key things I keep at my core when it comes to BL. First, is the members - always. Anyone accepting a role on staff, accepts the responsibility to LISTEN to the members and ACT professionally so the site will be here for the members (current and future) and be better than it was before. Before...back then? Better than when you found the place.
> 
> Listen. Listen, Think, Do, Review. Always looking to improve, always looking to learn and make things better - either myself, those around me, the site, anything. The best way to do that is listen, because if you had all the answers, you'd be done by now.
> 
> But it isn't about you, TLB. It's about the site and it's members! Yeah, the members. Let's pull one more point out of that history lesson - and you only have to go as far as the title. Democracy.
> 
> Democracy is rule by the masses. Now, true democracy doesn't really work, because someone has to play the hard part and make the hard decisions. Someone has to be held accountable in carrying out the group desire, and still keep an eye out for danger so John Q Public doesn't burn his house down or shoot his foot off. Someone has to make the rules and enforce them, and it isn't always going to be popular to be that person. Who has the balls to do it? For free, on their own time, often at their own expense? For free, knowing the thanks you'll get is bitching by those who feel persecuted?  Who has the integrity to do it with the people in mind, and not their own agenda? To do it without ego and with an awareness of what the members actually want and need?
> 
> And, if we're going to listen to the members, they've gotta fucking speak. Staff has to listen, but dammit, the public has to send a message in order for one to be heard. Dialogue involves more than one person speaking. Progress requires both parties actively listening and engaging the other party. You got the time required to do this? Who is willing to invest their time as a staff member to actually hear people out, formulate a plan to implement and get it in place? Versus how many people are unwilling to step outside their own needs and wants, who prefer to remain a member who bitches without doing? A member that can state whatever they want and leave at a whim?
> 
> Here it is, the payoff for all this I've written. I'll offer you a deal, and I bet I can get the rest of the staff to go along with it (if they don't agree, I'll simply provide them the stone fucking tablet, and offer them the choice of tits or gtfo). Here's the deal:
> 
> As staff, we'll promise to work towards more transparency, and accountability to the members. This will require us to continue giving our volunteer time and effort, and to listen to the members (and for sr staff to listen to the mods) - all without fear of persecution or ridicule. We'll do our best to implement changes that benefit the site and it's members to the best of our ability. And if, as an individual, we find we can't give what's needed we'll step down of our own volition and allow someone with the time and interest to pick up our spot. We'll promise to act in a way that would make you proud to be associated with the site (read that as 'act professional') while retaining that sense of humility, of humanity.
> 
> But here's the rub. As members, you have to help us develop these plans and ideas. You have to come to SUPPORT with your suggestions, with your comments on how to improve transparency, improve operations, improve the experience for the members. YOU have to care at least half as much as you expect us to. No more sitting on your ass and bitching about the status quo without doing something about it - either forum content where you can raise the level of quality; or in calling us to accountability with a real instance to which we can learn and respond.
> 
> SUPPORT is there for a reason, and it isn't just telling people we aren't going to delete all their posts or change their screen name. SUPPORT also means you are helping us improve this place and make it better than when you got here. Don't just point at staff and say we aren't doing anything when you don't even look at what we ARE doing, when you don't participate in our efforts to engage you and get your opinions on how things are going. Hell, you don't have to wait for us to ask. Look at how many staff members jump in and respond to any post in SUPPORT - and the ones with merit, see what effect they've had in changing policy or practice.
> 
> Staff is here to serve, but members need to take some ownership as well, and not assume the staff have all the answers (I think we've proven consistently that we don't) nor chide us for not having things done how you'd like....you need to help us find those answers, you need to help us know how you'd like things done.
> 
> Donations are needed, but for every person who donates there are 10 who either claim no money is available or simply remain silent in the shadows. You can still contribute - you're already doing it with your posts in the forums. Give us something more than the lulz, give us something to make the place better than when you got here. Give us your ideas, give us your feedback on our plans, give us your support as we try to roll them out. Speak up or shut up. Your choice. But get off our nuts for busting our ass when you can't get past your petty LOUNGE drama bitchfest. This site is FOR the MEMBERS....act like it's yours and take some ownership in what it is.


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## PriestTheyCalledHim

Soso78 said:


> Doesn't matter who started the thread. Everyone knows what goes on in cep. The forum mods are all left wing and heavily censor its content by banning or infracting anyone with views different to theirs. If they can't find a reason to ban someone they invent one.
> Ali
> Sj
> Swillow
> Cduggles
> Mainly sj and Ali and the rest just haven't got the balls to disagree.



Quoted for truth.  I also agree with Zypher's post above.


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## nuttynutskin

I don't really have anything to ad that hasn't already been mentioned, but count me in.


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## mal3volent

Without wading in to the nonsense too deep, I will just say that I think it would be an excellent idea to maybe recruit a mod for CE&P that happened to be of the conservative mindset. They would have to meet all the standards obviously, but I think it would be a good starting point in an effort to bring some sense of unity back to BL in general.

but some of you need to realize that this issue is a two way street. Don't sit there and tell me there hasn't been blatant and overwhelming trolling issues on CE&P for years and years. And it's continued to get worse. So if you have a legitimate gripe with how things are, go ahead and place some blame on staff but also look yourself in the mirror. Because some of the shit that's gone down recently has been extremely counterproductive.

and the admins especially are constantly getting pulled in both directions. They not only have to deal with the concerns of all BL'ers throughout the entire site, but also with the concerns of the entire staff AND all the technical issues we've been having on top of all that. Not to mention staff have real lives too, and real problems just like everyone else on this site. Most of the time it's damned if they do, damned if they don't. As ali said, if we would have flooded this thread immediately and started pushing back against some of these claims, there is zero doubt there would have been an outcry that we were drowning out the dissenting voices.

so if you want to see this place get better, we need to work together. Both sides need to get better, not just one or the other. Don't expect CE&P mods to put in all the time and effort it takes to do their jobs AND deal with the bullshit trolling that goes on on top of that. If you are a moderate/objective voice in all this, hold the troublemakers and instigators on the other side accountable too.


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## BehindtheShadow

mal3volent said:


> Without wading in to the nonsense too deep, I will just say that I think it would be an excellent idea to maybe recruit a mod for CE&P that happened to be of the conservative mindset. They would have to meet all the standards obviously, but I think it would be a good starting point in an effort to bring some sense of unity back to BL in general.
> 
> but some of you need to realize that this issue is a two way street. Don't sit there and tell me there hasn't been blatant and overwhelming trolling issues on CE&P for years and years. And it's continued to get worse. So if you have a legitimate gripe with how things are, go ahead and place some blame on staff but also look yourself in the mirror. Because some of the shit that's gone down recently has been extremely counterproductive.
> 
> and the admins especially are constantly getting pulled in both directions. They not only have to deal with the concerns of all BL'ers throughout the entire site, but also with the concerns of the entire staff AND all the technical issues we've been having on top of all that. Not to mention staff have real lives too, and real problems just like everyone else on this site. Most of the time it's damned if they do, damned if they don't. As ali said, if we would have flooded this thread immediately and started pushing back against some of these claims, there is zero doubt there would have been an outcry that we were drowning out the dissenting voices.
> 
> so if you want to see this place get better, we need to work together. Both sides need to get better, not just one or the other. Don't expect CE&P mods to put in all the time and effort it takes to do their jobs AND deal with the bullshit trolling that goes on on top of that. If you are a moderate/objective voice in all this, hold the troublemakers and instigators on the other side accountable too.



Agreed - thank you for this Mal


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## zephyr

Mal:  I hope you took some time to read what TLB wrote as everyone does and not write off some form of attempt at communication as "nonsense".

You have valid points as well that should be responded to with good faith as others should be responded to in good faith.

There are many people whose thoughts and take on bl as a whole and specifically in this case cep would help,  or at least offer some kind of alternate improvements.

As easy at is is to point the finger at individuals who are not willing to discuss issues without coming here, its helpful to point the finger back at your own self and be open to criticism.

After reading TLB's post,  I have taken stock of things and have realised its his open and transparent way of talking thats missing.

Instead of just adding to a chorus of complaint which will just fall on deaf ears,  what can I do, can you do, can anyone who is noticing problems get worse do- to actually improve things?

Its normal to get mad and chuck a shit,  its abnormal to pretend alls great when its not.

Your point of troublemakers and instigating is valid, theres no argument there. Theres troublemakers and troubled people on staff or not.  There always have been.  Troubled people dont just wake up one day and become trouble out of nowhere though .


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## mal3volent

zephyr said:


> Mal:  I hope you took some time to read what TLB wrote as everyone does and not write off some form of attempt at communication as "nonsense".
> 
> You have valid points as well that should be responded to with good faith as others should be responded to in good faith.
> 
> There are many people whose thoughts and take on bl as a whole and specifically in this case cep would help,  or at least offer some kind of alternate improvements.
> 
> As easy at is is to point the finger at individuals who are not willing to discuss issues without coming here, its helpful to point the finger back at your own self and be open to criticism.
> 
> After reading TLB's post,  I have taken stock of things and have realised its his open and transparent way of talking thats missing.
> 
> Instead of just adding to a chorus of complaint which will just fall on deaf ears,  what can I do, can you do, can anyone who is noticing problems get worse do- to actually improve things?
> 
> Its normal to get mad and chuck a shit,  its abnormal to pretend alls great when its not.
> 
> Your point of troublemakers and instigating is valid, theres no argument there. Theres troublemakers and troubled people on staff or not.  There always have been.  Troubled people dont just wake up one day and become trouble out of nowhere though .



ive not read the long thing you quoted, yet. I will though. The nonsense I was referring to was nothing specific, just an acknowledgement that there is an element of bullshit in some of these complaints (not just in this thread but over the past few months too). But there are also good points. I was choosing to address those good points, and those who are being fair and objective, instead of the bullshit. Didn't want to expand too much in the spirit of productivity.


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## Droppersneck

mal3volent said:


> Without wading in to the nonsense too deep, I will just say that I think it would be an excellent idea to maybe recruit a mod for CE&P that happened to be of the conservative mindset. They would have to meet all the standards obviously, but I think it would be a good starting point in an effort to bring some sense of unity back to BL in general.
> 
> but some of you need to realize that this issue is a two way street. Don't sit there and tell me there hasn't been blatant and overwhelming trolling issues on CE&P for years and years. And it's continued to get worse. So if you have a legitimate gripe with how things are, go ahead and place some blame on staff but also look yourself in the mirror. Because some of the shit that's gone down recently has been extremely counterproductive.
> 
> and the admins especially are constantly getting pulled in both directions. They not only have to deal with the concerns of all BL'ers throughout the entire site, but also with the concerns of the entire staff AND all the technical issues we've been having on top of all that. Not to mention staff have real lives too, and real problems just like everyone else on this site. Most of the time it's damned if they do, damned if they don't. As ali said, if we would have flooded this thread immediately and started pushing back against some of these claims, there is zero doubt there would have been an outcry that we were drowning out the dissenting voices.
> 
> so if you want to see this place get better, we need to work together. Both sides need to get better, not just one or the other. Don't expect CE&P mods to put in all the time and effort it takes to do their jobs AND deal with the bullshit trolling that goes on on top of that. If you are a moderate/objective voice in all this, hold the troublemakers and instigators on the other side accountable too.



Believe it or not I am only bringing this up for blue lights benefit. Dissenting/conservative view points drive the conversation in cep, if Jgrimez and a few others get fed up with being targeted and leave, cep will be deader than the lounge. I did address ‘trolling’ when I said wrong think. What runs people of the opposite mindset off is a major double standard.


----------



## Jabberwocky

It's telling that antagonizing folks who donate their time and energy to BL is all some are willing to do in their efforts to affect change. Is all you (droppers, et al) are comfortable doing complaining and spreading rumors?  



To former staff participating in this thread, you decided to leave instead of do what you could to improve BL's culture. You tried, and then you GAVE UP. Now you say you're frustrated about how the site is being run? As members, all you're comfortable doing is complaining and shit stirring? Please explain to me how that does anything to further your agenda of political inclusion? 

Until you prove me otherwise, I can't hep but see what you're present day "contribution" as anything but a vehicle for venting frustration. Why? I haven't seen any of you provide even one well-intentioned constructive suggestion. 


On the political front, I am left asking myself what the hell passes for conservatism today? 

In the case of internet persona's such as droppers, conservatism seems to mean feckless internet troll. A user with a LONG and distinguished history of trolling BL, I have a hard time seeing how his complaints are either genuine or about anything other than boosting his profile. Trolling is not the essence of conservatism. Neither is hatred or othering (meaning bigotry such as racism, etc). 


Increasing transparency? Sure, I have always like that idea - just as long as it serves a point beyond facilitating dropper-type troll drama. 

The main issue facing BL at this moment in time seems to be less about political inclusion than about how the fuck we can more effectively deal with trolls who's main mission in using BL seems to be disrupting the site's operation and inclusive, non-judgemental harm reduction culture. 


In terms of more political points of view and inclusion of diversity in CE&P? Abso-fucking-lutely! 

The caveat however is that meaningful political inclusion requires DIVERSITY. It's no wonder, considering that the single most significant portion of BL's user base seems to be white males, that issue about why we aren't allowing racist points of view and other forms of othering seem to be hot issues right now. 

For an organization dedicated to ALL PEOPLE affected by drug use, promoting political inclusion involves prohibiting/editing/removing comments that victimize, harass, degrade, or intimidate an individual or group of individuals on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or any other reasonBLUELIGHT USER AGREEMENT
How can we have more conservative voices present in CE&P that are welcomed and appreciated? Stop spreading hatred masquerading as politics. Respect the User Agreement that YOU consented to uphold when you activated your account. If your problem is with the User Agreement, maybe try suggesting how it could be amended to further your goals. 

Maybe try starting by clearly defining your goals.


Is what you want to see more of on BL about political inclusion in CE&P, less groupthink, the freedom to hurtle insults at dedicated staff members, trolling for lulz, spreading of vitriolic rumors, or making fun of people because they are struggling with drug use? 

Or, like, do you want to promote harm reduction and provide an empowering and safe space for marginalized group of people/drug users? Because, when I see threads like this, heaven knows I don't know what to think 


Like, OMG!! This thread is still open and no posts have been deleted by staff! 






Who would have thought?!


----------



## CosmicG

^ qft

It's hard to believe Droppers is bothered by "toxicity".

Bruh, I'm sorry but LMAO

Look at what you think is funny. Look at what you see as humor. I don't care if it is offsite or not. That doesn't make it any less valid. You think anyone here cares what you think or how you feel about Bluelight on Bluelight?

You were broadcasting this very thread on your cesspool before you deleted it trying to recruit people to post here, and if you get the reaction you're looking for you won't hesitate to post it up again.

I know this place isn't perfect, but you are the last person that should be crying about toxicity. 

Get a life


----------



## Soso78

To be fair cg a lot of people find fucked up things funny. It doesn't mean they don't have valid points on anything.
There's definitely a lot of hypocrisy on bl, what one member gets banned for another won't.


----------



## CosmicG

Soso78 said:


> To be fair cg a lot of people find fucked up things funny. It doesn't mean they don't have valid points on anything.
> There's definitely a lot of hypocrisy on bl, what one member gets banned for another won't.



I agree that it's a good point that should be addressed, it's just the delivery that I am having a hard time digesting. If somebody else made this post it would get completely different feedback (I think)

If I put my own biased view aside, I know you are correct. As far as fucked up things being funny, I totally agree with that too. But at a certain point for me at least, it usually gets to a point where I just have to shake my head and say "damn, that is fucked up."


Especially when it comes to all of the doxxing and pretending to be other people. It's wayyyy fucked up dude and he may not do it himself but he allows it on his sub dedicated to trolling bluelight. Shit man I can't even post pictures here anymore.


----------



## zephyr

^ Mate Im just gonna say that the thread here hopefully can be a start of a good thing and that is creating a dialogue that anyone can put their view in to,  this specifically being about the cep forum due to the original post.  This is not the first attempt at this issue and could recur in the future like any other problem across the board. 

Putting aside the personal drama bullshit created through the subreddit that droppersneck is involved in running just for a while,  its hard I know- try to take the cep concern at face value.

He has a valid argument in what he is saying despite his trolling so what hes said shouldnt be written off.  

Bardeaux is gone but what he was good at can be passed on to those who could learn from him.

It would help to prove the genuine intent of establishing this thread in the first place by coming to the party and addressing his own actions and what he intends to do should he actually want to resolve this.

Its a two way street.  Its not possible to sort shit out without it.


----------



## Jabberwocky

From what I've read, it seems like the main complaint of these so-called conservatives (thinking of droppers and JGrimez specifically here) revolves around infractions related to clear violated of the user agreement (namely, posting racist and sexist comments). Am I missing something?

CE&P staff has change significantly over the last couple years. The environment of CE&P is MUCH more hostile now than it was then. I could see how some staff actions over the last 6-12 months have been more heavy handed or hurried than they could/have been, given how understaff CE&P is and how much pressure they're under given America's current political climate. 

With how challenging it has become to run CE&P these days, staff have a lot of tough decisions to make. Perhaps we could discuss specific actions taken that could be improved upon in the future? It seems like that's the more genuine issue this thread is getting at. 

Regarding droppers, he's become an entirely disruptive influence on BL (and off, it would seem). He's taken the effort to create this thread, which clearly needed to happen. Great. This thread doesn't somehow erase all his prior "contributions."


----------



## CosmicG

zephyr said:


> ^ Mate Im just gonna say that the thread here hopefully can be a start of a good thing and that is creating a dialogue that anyone can put their view in to,  this specifically being about the cep forum due to the original post.  This is not the first attempt at this issue and could recur in the future like any other problem across the board.
> 
> Putting aside the personal drama bullshit created through the subreddit that droppersneck is involved in running just for a while,  its hard I know- try to take the cep concern at face value.
> 
> He has a valid argument in what he is saying despite his trolling so what hes said shouldnt be written off.
> 
> Bardeaux is gone but what he was good at can be passed on to those who could learn from him.
> 
> It would help to prove the genuine intent of establishing this thread in the first place by coming to the party and addressing his own actions and what he intends to do should he actually want to resolve this.
> 
> Its a two way street.  Its not possible to sort shit out without it.



Fair enough zephyr. I apologize for derailing a thread that I know needs to happen for the good of bluelight. All spite aside, some people take politics as seriously as they would say their religion, so it makes sense that some mods would perhaps take certain perspectives out of context and infract/ban without logic or reason.

If it were just Droppers complaining I wouldn't pay it any mind, because he is incapable of turning off the troll and his credibility suffers as a result. Half the time he just posts things just to get under people's skin, not because that is what he actually believes. He is a troll through and through, there is nothing else to him.

However, too many people I see having this same complaint, including those not connected to said off site forum. It doesn't matter what OP's motive is in bringing this up or what he intends to do with it. The topic needs to be addressed.


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## Jabberwocky

Agreed, "the" topic does need to be address...

But please remind me what the actual topics are up for discussion here? Political inclusivity in CE&P? The way CE&P staff run their forum? Giving disgruntled ex-staffer more of a voice? Letting the troll faction do whatever they want on BL?

Let's start by pondering the title of this thread: _It?s gotten insanely toxic in CE&P. Please read and discuss in a civil manner_

The first statement, "It?s gotten insanely toxic in CE&P." This I can agree with 100%. It seems like everyone is actually in agreement here. It's only that the discussion in thread includes different views of how it's gotten so toxic or what is making it toxic differ in emphasis. 

Is it toxic because of how CE&P staff run their forum? Or is it toxic because of trolls or users who try posting egregious violations of the User Agreement? Other reasons? What is your specific complain about CE&P? Or have you just jumped on the Droppers bandwagon because it suits your mood?

I see no substantive discussion in this thread (or CE&P) on policies we could implement to move us in less toxic directions. Put your money where you mouth is if you please: Make a meaningful suggestion.

On to the title's second statement, "Please read and discuss in a civil manner". I'm left wondering, why didn't this happen in CE&P? Why is it happening here instead? That's the more interesting question for me. 

The troll faction does not seem to be interested in having a "civil" discussion about issues related to CE&P in CE&P. Why should I believe that's all they really want here in STH?


----------



## Droppersneck

We often times only see what we want to see, our own biases take over. I don’t foresee flagship memebers and moderators being able to recognize their own bias, especially after the responses I saw after I pointed out some obvious hypocrisy in cep yesterday. I’m only bringing this up for the good of the forum, but I understand why folks think I’m addressing this in bad faith. If me, soso, nuttey, Jgrimez, liquidmethod, priest, and a couple others I’m forgetting stop posting, the forum will become slower and worse than the lounge and a few other sub forums that have died. The conversation is driven by the few opposing view points, now I know some may think an echo chamber is optimal, but it results in a dead forum most of the time. I can  go either way with this, and I respect the decision of Alasdair with which way he chooses to go.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Droppersneck said:


> We often times only see what we want to see, our own biases take over. I don’t foresee flagship memebers and moderators being able to recognize their own bias, especially after the responses I saw after I pointed out some obvious hypocrisy in cep yesterday. I’m only bringing this up for the good of the forum, but I understand why folks think I’m addressing this in bad faith.



Is it so easy to avoid implicit bias? The whole point of implicit bias is that you aren't aware you have it when you have it. So yes, it's hard to see our own biases at work when they "take over." Somehow I don't think that's the issue here. 

Beyond that, BL was never meant to be entirely unbiased. We are biased toward providing an online harm reduction community. It wouldn't be BL if we weren't. Are we supposed to be entirely politically unbiased? If we support harm reduction, we wouldn't want to be. 

Would CE&P being more inclusive be cool? Sure. But that doesn't seem like what you are talking about. It's the silver lining of this thread, no thanks to you Droppers. TL is the appropriate forum to troll in, not CE&P.

The issue here is that members have complaints about how CE&P is being run. Beyond expressing your frustration, what _are_ your specific complaints with how CE&P is being run?

This is the appropriate place to bring up your complaints about CE&P. Do you have complaints related to specific actions staff have taken? Do you have infractions, PMs or posts you can reference that we can discuss here to get to the heart of things? 

Please share specific examples to substantiate what you're saying. Otherwise it's hard to take you that seriously. None of us can read your mind. All that's obvious so far is some of you are upset with how CE&P is run, not what you're actually upset about. Unless you provide specific examples, all we can do is assume or guess. If you feel we are being biased, that is because you're not giving us anything to go on. 

That's also an invitation to Soso, Nutty, JGrimez, Rio and Priest. This is the place to bring complaints about specifics actions to light you feel harm or otherwise inhibit the BL ecosystem. Don't just complain about it by starting another nasty flavored thread. Do something about it! 

FWIW I'm glad this is happening here. Don't let any of my posts come off as me being pissed this is happening. All things considered, CE&P staff have been doing an outstanding job running their ship. We all have become increasingly frustrated about what in CE&P. This discussion is welcomed here. It would be a waste if it didn't accomplish anything.

But as the message from TLB zephyr posted says, whether this accomplishes anything isn't just up to staff. It's up to the members. 



Droppersneck said:


> If me, soso, nuttey, Jgrimez, liquidmethod, priest, and a couple others I’m forgetting stop posting, the forum will become slower and worse than the lounge and a few other sub forums that have died. The conversation is driven by the few opposing view points, now I know some may think an echo chamber is optimal, but it results in a dead forum most of the time. I can  go either way with this, and I respect the decision of Alasdair with which way he chooses to go.



That sounds more like an opinion or argument than demonstrative of your actual contributions. Priest is an example. He is posting less, we are no worse off. You are another example. You're posting more in CE&P, and CE&P is much more hostile. Correlation ain't causation, but it is interesting. 

If you're upset about something, specific examples please? So we can know what you're actually talking about?


----------



## Droppersneck

Can we unban Jgrimez for the good of discussion? No need to think I’m being hostile, I’m not trying to be and that isn’t my intent. My acct can be permabanned today or CEP could become a the neutral forum it once was when cooler heads prevailed, I have little skin in the game. I’m more speaking out for the folks not willing to start the conversation. It’s a common thread, and I think Jgrimez could bring some valuable points to the discussion tbh


----------



## Soso78

Toothpaste are you saying you don't think cep is biased in anyway?


----------



## Jabberwocky

Droppersneck said:


> Can we unban Jgrimez for the good of discussion? No need to think I’m being hostile, I’m not trying to be and that isn’t my intent. My acct can be permabanned today or CEP could become a the neutral forum it once was when cooler heads prevailed, I have little skin in the game. I’m more speaking out for the folks not willing to start the conversation. It’s a common thread, and I think Jgrimez could bring some valuable points to the discussion tbh



I suggest you PM an admin, ask and go from there. Not my decision. 



Soso78 said:


> Toothpaste are you saying you don't think cep is biased in anyway?



I didn't say anything along those lines. What I said is that bias isn't the significant issue this thread brings to light. The significant issue this thread bring to light is that some members have serious complaints. Not for me to say if they're wrong or right, but...

It is for me to politely ask you to provide specific examples, so we all can get a sense of what you feel needs to change.


----------



## alasdairm

i'm going on vacation for a week with limited access - i assume that, in my absence, everything will be wine and roses given i'm everything that's wrong with bl 

a few general thoughts...



Droppersneck said:


> ...feel like Im speaking up for the people that don’t have a voice...


who are these people with no voice? i'm seeing plenty of criticism in this thread and nobody's been banned for expressing an opinion.



Soso78 said:


> Doesn't matter who started the thread.


of course it does. i tend to echo cosmicg's specific comments in this regard. it's hard (not just for me) to take seriously the idea that the op is posting in good faith given that poster's history. further, the irony of being told we're 'toxic' is not lost on me 

when you read my posts soso78 do you think "_hmm. he makes some good points and i'm trying to see his point of view_" or "_great. more excuses from this awful, virtue-signalling, sjw, commie, libtard cuck who's responsible for evrything that's wrong with bl!_"? bias goes both ways and it's, frankly, inevitable.

from the much-mocked blua: "_...you may not...post or upload any content that victimizes, harasses, degrades, or intimidates an individual or group of individuals on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation..._"

i don't like to generalise but left-leaners tend not to post content that degrades people on the basis of race, sexual orientation and such. post like that tend to come from right-leaners. so there's always going to be a tension with that constituency and this rule. that is simply not going to change and this isn't me being a nazi mod. the owners are quite clear that kind of content has no place on bluelight.



PriestTheyCalledHim said:


> Even though certain admins and moderators will now claim or post in this thread and elsewhere, "that there's no political bias at all here..."


i don't see anybody doing that.

much of this discussion seems to be centered around a specific user - jgrimez. he's being oppressed! his alternate viewpoint is being silenced! in the interests of transparency let's discuss.

jgrimez is currently on a temporary ban. here's a recent post for which he received a one-point infraction:



JGrimez said:


> No offense but can you please shut the fuck up...



that's not an alternate viewpoint being silenced. this is not politically motivated censorship. it's somebody who's been asked numerous times to stop being a dick being a dick. it's especially ironic coming from somebody who constantly complains about others' abuse and name-calling. when people do this then turn around and claim they're being victimised for theiir politics, can you truly blame us for rolling our eyes and not giving a shit?

ce&p is a microcosm of the country and the world... see: America may be more divided now than at any time since the Civil War



> Though the country has been heading toward such a schism for decades, the Trump presidency has accelerated this trend. Today America may be more divided than it’s been at any point since the Civil War. Though he has only been in office for about nine months, Trump is already the most divisive president in modern history, and according to an ABC News/Washington Post poll from last month a majority (66 percent) of Americans think that the president is doing more to divide the country than unite it — higher than his two predecessors, George W. Bush and Barack Obama, who both peaked at 55 percent.



like you, i have many questions and few answers. believe it or not, i ask myself constantly what am i doing to make things better...

so let's talk about _specific_ things that can be done to improve matters?



toothpastedog said:


> How can we have more conservative voices present in CE&P that are welcomed and appreciated? Stop spreading hatred masquerading as politics. Respect the User Agreement that YOU consented to uphold when you activated your account. If your problem is with the User Agreement, maybe try suggesting how it could be amended to further your goals.


indeed.



Rio Fantastic said:


> ...shaking up CE&P and instating a new team of moderators is way overdue IMO.


who are you suggesting? i totally agree that a balance of perspective is important. we did have a 'right-leaning' voice on the ce&p staff until very recently. he just went awol and had to be removed after numerous attempts to contact him went unanswered. maybe left-leaning staff tend to be more caring, compassionate and dedicated to the responsibilities of volunteering by their very nature? 

so who would you add and why?

for those who kept reading to the end of this extemporaneous download, thank you. thanks also to those in the thread who've offered their feedback - both negative and positive - in good faith.

alasdair


----------



## Soso78

Who are the cep mods? I'm not even sure how many there are.


----------



## alasdairm

^ really? you accuse them of bias:



Soso78 said:


> The forum mods are all left wing and heavily censor its content by banning or infracting anyone with views different to theirs.



but you don't know who they are? that doesn't add up 

forum mods are listed on the bl forum page and the ce&p forum page

alasdair


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## Soso78

Sorry I can't find the list, where is it?


----------



## alasdairm

click the second link above and scroll to the bottom of the page under "_Moderators of this Forum_".

alasdair


----------



## Soso78

Nah it's not there, I'm on phone though.


----------



## alasdairm

use the full site skin.

alasdair


----------



## Jabberwocky

Soso78 said:


> Nah it's not there, I'm on phone though.



Follow the yellow brick road -->

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/713150-Bluelight-Mobile-(With-Links-to-Both-Mobile-and-Full-Site!) -->

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/forum.php?styleid=51 -->

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/forums/50-Current-Events-and-Politics -->


----------



## Soso78

Thanks Ali, didn't know I could do that!
Cep 6 viewing lol almost one mod for each. Yea things are going well in cep


----------



## Jabberwocky

Soso78 said:


> Thanks Ali, didn't know I could do that!
> Cep 6 viewing lol almost one mod for each. Yea things are going well in cep



Do you have anything else to add to this discussion other than trying to shit on CE&P because how many people were viewing the subforum at 12:20 on June 13, 2018 PST? 

Did you happen to notice we only have two mods active in CE&P right now, just to try to do damage control on all Dropper's trolling and JGrimez's drama?


----------



## Soso78

Not "a" forum mate. Cep specifically. I'm not shitting on it either, more drawing attention to the fact it's dying. Maybe just maybe it's dying because of the points raised in this thread.


----------



## Jabberwocky

And...?


----------



## mal3volent

Soso78 said:


> Thanks Ali, didn't know I could do that!
> Cep 6 viewing lol almost one mod for each. Yea things are going well in cep



lol nice. You get an admin and smod to go out of their way to help you, then the first thing you do is make a smart ass comment.


----------



## Soso78

I know lol it was just I've never used the full site, I'm always on my phone and never seen how little views cep gets. 
Admin and smods are all about helping mate so don't worry about it.


----------



## alasdairm

^ in that case, by definition, you've also never seen how many it gets when it peaks? your sample of 1 i snot very logical or compelling...



Soso78 said:


> Cep 6 viewing lol almost one mod for each. Yea things are going well in cep


i just looked and there are 23 viewing:






and if you check right now there will be 7. and in 30 seconds there will be 12. then 2. then 18, then. then. then.

what's your point?

you think that ce&p staff and admin actions are responsible for a drop in traffic? that's a perfectly valid opinion. maybe seeing people being told to "_shut the fuck up_" makes people - especially newer members - less inclined to participate? maybe there's a little more to it than that?

alasdair


----------



## Soso78

Yes I do think that cep staff and admins actions are responsible for a drop in traffic. You are also responsible Ali.
i think the clique you and a few others have in there is what is the problem. 
Its hard to have a discussion because if it gets heated the people your debating with are in the clique or are mods so you get infacted. 
I don't think adults are put off posting by someone else being told to shut the fuck up. Your not giving them enough credit.


----------



## alasdairm

^ maybe. i think you're just guilty of confirmation bias.

well, at least now you can see the mod list you know exactly who you've been criticising this whole time 

let's take a look at your record? here's a small sample of your charming contribution:



Soso78 said:


> Go fuck yourself. Sorry for asking a question. Cunt.





Soso78 said:


> Yes that's correct faggot...





Soso78 said:


> Read what I said u thick cunt lol





Soso78 said:


> I got no problem with gays but would rather not be round the more flamboyant gay man. I never understood why because a man likes men he suddenly has to talk and act like a [snipped].



rounded off with this hypocritical nonsense:



Soso78 said:


> Please try not to resort to insults, I know it's hard for you but at least try.



somebody else who complains about insults and abuse but only as long as it's others doing it. you're demonstrably not an innocent martyr who's being persecuted because of his views. i invite you to hold yourself to the same standard you hold others - i know it's hard for you but at least try 

alasdair


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## Soso78

Ok so if I said to someone "go fuck yourself, sorry for asking a question" can you post the comment I was replying to?


----------



## CFC

Say what you will about traffic at BL in general, but you're not going to win when it comes to CE&P.

It's literally the busiest it has ever been, going back as far as we can generate reliable stats for (2010).

I'm not saying there's room to be complacent, but clearly something's going right...


----------



## Soso78

It's not about winning though is it?
i don't think number of posts is s good way to gauge how well cep is doing. It could be just a few posters talking between themselves. That's not what makes a forum good is it.


----------



## alasdairm

^ i agree traffic stats in isolation are not the whole picture.

but, if it's not a good way to gauge how _well_ the forum is doing, why - when you assumed the numbers were bad - do you use it as a way to criticise how poorly the forum is doing?

cake and eat it?

alasdair


----------



## CFC

Soso78 said:


> It's not about winning though is it?
> i don't think number of posts is s good way to gauge how well cep is doing. It could be just a few posters talking between themselves. That's not what makes a forum good is it.



I've seen you argue genuinely and persuasively before, and I know you can do it well when you want to. I've also seen you start shitting up the forum, trying to rile people up and being totally disingenuous.

The former works well to generate quality debate, the latter earns censure and spoils it for everyone. You can be the person that raises the game, if you want.


----------



## Soso78

Here we go lol 
ali I commented on the lack of people viewing cep mate. I didn't comment on the number of posts. 
You understand the difference don't you?
post count could be high but only the same few members chatting between themselves.


----------



## alasdairm

Soso78 said:


> Ok so if I said to someone "go fuck yourself, sorry for asking a question" can you post the comment I was replying to?


sure. here are the two posts immediately preceding your post:



Soso78 said:


> You think because some Iraqi was paid to translate what other Iraqis were saying it makes them a good person tgst should automatically be allowed into america?





alasdairm said:


> in the case of the guys discussed in these articles: "_...They are the most thoroughly vetted individuals to come to our country — period._"
> 
> so, yes. i do.



to which you replied:



Soso78 said:


> Go fuck yourself. Sorry for asking a question. Cunt.



and i'm the problem? 

alasdair


----------



## Soso78

fuckin hell that seems a bit of an extreme response to that lol
what thread it in? I'd like to read that again.
Link me to it


----------



## alasdairm

^ i just did. pretty sure? i'll go ahead and agree to disagree.



Soso78 said:


> ali I commented on the lack of people viewing cep mate. I didn't comment on the number of posts.
> You understand the difference don't you?


of course. but as long as i have been a bluelighter views and posts have been directly proportional.



Soso78 said:


> ...post count could be high but only the same few members chatting between themselves.


you're right. it could. and by definition it also could not.

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

Alasdiar can you post the context of Jgrimezs comment? I’ve seen quite a few of his posts, and non sense infractions. Ie ‘posting off topic’ etc.. The problem is while I’m aware of some of the adult commentary I’ve made and long past trolling I’ve done(until bardeaux asked me to stop), I don’t think you guys are capable of seeing your own biases. I 100% started this thread in good faith and would not like to see CEP go the way of the lounge. While I can see how Jgrimezs “shut the fuck up comment” is quite shocking and upsetting, I feel like maybe giving him a break and allowing him to wiegh in here could be quite beneficial to all.


----------



## alasdairm

he's temp banned so, for now, he's lost the privilege of weighing in here.

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

Soso78 said:


> fuckin hell that seems a bit of an extreme response to that lol


something we can agree on  my point exactly.



Soso78 said:


> Link me to it


the links (
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	




) are right in the quotes above.

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

So you always say after a long time poster leaves upset “and nothing of value was lost”, but what if there is value there? You truly don’t think that if I posted a vitriolic diatribe againt Clinton and specifically made ad homs against her supporters, like sj did yesterday, that I would be banned? This is why I bring up Bardo, you need a level head running the ship, especially when it’s something as contentious as CEP. Even if Tathra were to take a bigger role, that would be a step in the right direction. Not that he doesn’t have his own biases, but he has self awareness, an ability to see injustice, regardless of political affiliation. I’ve all but wrote the sub off but I enjoy reading a few posters here and their arguments.

<edit> If you can’t over turn his ban, can you at least leave the thread open till he gets off the ban


----------



## Soso78

Ahhh that makes more sense, you left out the bit where you were condescending and tried to make me look like I was being like that for no reason. I remember now.


----------



## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> So you always say after a long time poster leaves upset “and nothing of value was lost”, but what if there is value there?


funny. you agreed with me at the time: 





Droppersneck said:


> I will say I don't agree often, but he is correct here.



the value is in contradicting the (false) narrative that some ce&p posters are victimised purely because of their political views. i've now given two crystal clear examples of that not being the case. i can only infer, but even soso78 seems to be having trouble accepting that he responded with such vitriol to my mundane response. for me, that just reinforces that bias is an issue on both 'sides'.



Droppersneck said:


> You truly don’t think that if I posted a vitriolic diatribe againt Clinton and specifically made ad homs against her supporters, like sj did yesterday, that I would be banned?


i don't think it. i know it.

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

Soso78 said:


> Ahhh that makes more sense, you left out the bit where you were condescending and tried to make me look like I was being like that for no reason. I remember now.


not at all. i posted your question. i posted my response _in full_ and you responded with "_Go fuck yourself. Sorry for asking a question. Cunt._".

i think it's indicative of your (plural) role in the problem as seen from the perspective of the staff. if you feel it was acceptable we can agree to disagree.

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

Will you at least let this thread stay open till Jgrimez can wiegh in? He’s one of the main poster who’s responses I like reading and know he has some valuable insight into the topic at hand/ is he main reason I made this post. Can’t help but feel dejavu here.


----------



## Soso78

At least we're getting somewhere now. At least Ali is admiting there are biases on both sides.
problem is only one side is in a position to use them biases to ban or infract.
like I said if I were to say half the shit others say I'd be banned.

ali you never posted your response in full st all


----------



## alasdairm

actually you are right. i didn't. apologies. i was only looking at the bottom half of the post.

but i am confused. you rag on me for not giving people enough credit to not be insulted by being told to "_shut the fuck up_" but now you're suddenly sensitive to being asked "_do you really have to be so crudely spoon fed this kind of stuff?_"

as i said before, it would be great if you held yourself to the same standard you hold others...

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

Droppersneck said:


> Will you at least let this thread stay open till Jgrimez can wiegh in? He’s one of the main poster who’s responses I like reading and know he has some valuable insight into the topic at hand/ is he main reason I made this post. Can’t help but feel dejavu here.



Alasdair? Did you read this question. Jgrimez will be able to give you the examples you are asking for. As a phone poster at work, I’m quite limited.


----------



## Soso78

Your fuckin right you didn't and I don't think it was an oversight. I think you try to manipulate things to suit yourself. Like when you edit posts.
It still never stopped me posting though did it?


----------



## alasdairm

^ 

it's like you're just making my points for me 

whatever. this has been illuminating. see you guys later. i'm going on vacation for 8 days. you can rag on me a bit more when i get back.

alasdair


----------



## Soso78

What because I said the word fuckin lol grow a pair ali. Enjoy your holiday mate.


----------



## alasdairm

all your assumptions are 100% correct. you're right. i'm wrong. you get a star.

my friends call me ali. i'm not aware that we're friends.

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

Soso let’s just chill on this thread for a bit, and let it rehash when Jgrimez gets off ban.


----------



## zephyr

The current political climate has impacted a lot of social media and has brought out a huge variety of opinions,  this cep forum seems to be grossly unable to cope with the divide which has made other forums flourish.

Having stumbled upon another places which have similar rules, the unapproving/ editing and ganging up of a few people in practically every thread against anyone not agreeing is a problem specifically located in bl cep.

Examples are in the contents of the front page, screenshots are uploading to imgur (too many so takes time).

Also what is not seen here but you can see TD would be the attitude of 2 staff members you are supposed to be looking after and also the lack of input comparatively from the others.  The uneven presence and lack of acknowledging this is something you could discuss, having tried before I just assume the absentees gave up or got told repeatedly they didnt fit in/deserve to be mods. 


So reading TLB's post from 2009 is telling the difference of what a mod role is, what senior staff do, what admin are for and what WE are here for betwen then and now.


Specific examples are all within your realm more than ours.  Can you start with some examples yourself?  Anyone else? Cduggles? Swillow?

You can talk for yourself you know.


Alasdairm: Its technically your job and your problem to wade through threads like this and read every single post and take response on board.  You should know that and its not just you as you have sj who is admin too.

I kinda think that since there have been other people before you that could at least give the appearance of wanting to help out then you should be able to do that yourself.  You were far more chilled and easy to talk to but you are definitely not now.   Yes im a hypocrite obviously and not any different.



> t's not an alternate viewpoint being silenced. this is not politically motivated censorship. it's somebody who's been asked numerous times to stop being a dick being a dick. it's especially ironic coming from somebody who constantly complains about others' abuse and name-calling. when people do this then turn around and claim they're being victimised for theiir politics, can you truly blame us for rolling our eyes and not giving a shit?
> 
> ce&p is a microcosm of the country and the world



This is an example of what you are continually posting which is as helpful as "stfu" or me cracking the shits and telling you to get stuffed,  approaching a brick wall for dialogue does get aggravating and we are druggies so what do you expect to happen?

You also play the martyr, you have used that technique of deflection better and longer than anyone.

You arent doing your job if you roll your eyes and not care.

Asking members to change means asking you to change too.

Are you able to do that?

Im going to try.

I hope you do.


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

toothpastedog said:


> It's telling that antagonizing folks who donate their time and energy to BL is all some are willing to do in their efforts to affect change. Is all you (droppers, et al) are comfortable doing complaining and spreading rumors?
> 
> 
> 
> To former staff participating in this thread, you decided to leave instead of do what you could to improve BL's culture. You tried, and then you GAVE UP. Now you say you're frustrated about how the site is being run? As members, all you're comfortable doing is complaining and shit stirring? Please explain to me how that does anything to further your agenda of political inclusion?
> 
> Until you prove me otherwise, I can't hep but see what you're present day "contribution" as anything but a vehicle for venting frustration. Why? I haven't seen any of you provide even one well-intentioned constructive suggestion.
> 
> 
> On the political front, I am left asking myself what the hell passes for conservatism today?
> 
> In the case of internet persona's such as droppers, conservatism seems to mean feckless internet troll. A user with a LONG and distinguished history of trolling BL, I have a hard time seeing how his complaints are either genuine or about anything other than boosting his profile. Trolling is not the essence of conservatism. Neither is hatred or othering (meaning bigotry such as racism, etc).
> 
> 
> Increasing transparency? Sure, I have always like that idea - just as long as it serves a point beyond facilitating dropper-type troll drama.
> 
> The main issue facing BL at this moment in time seems to be less about political inclusion than about how the fuck we can more effectively deal with trolls who's main mission in using BL seems to be disrupting the site's operation and inclusive, non-judgemental harm reduction culture.
> 
> 
> In terms of more political points of view and inclusion of diversity in CE&P? Abso-fucking-lutely!
> 
> The caveat however is that meaningful political inclusion requires DIVERSITY. It's no wonder, considering that the single most significant portion of BL's user base seems to be white males, that issue about why we aren't allowing racist points of view and other forms of othering seem to be hot issues right now.
> 
> For an organization dedicated to ALL PEOPLE affected by drug use, promoting political inclusion involves prohibiting/editing/removing comments that victimize, harass, degrade, or intimidate an individual or group of individuals on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or any other reasonBLUELIGHT USER AGREEMENT
> How can we have more conservative voices present in CE&P that are welcomed and appreciated? Stop spreading hatred masquerading as politics. Respect the User Agreement that YOU consented to uphold when you activated your account. If your problem is with the User Agreement, maybe try suggesting how it could be amended to further your goals.
> 
> Maybe try starting by clearly defining your goals.
> 
> 
> Is what you want to see more of on BL about political inclusion in CE&P, less groupthink, the freedom to hurtle insults at dedicated staff members, trolling for lulz, spreading of vitriolic rumors, or making fun of people because they are struggling with drug use?
> 
> Or, like, do you want to promote harm reduction and provide an empowering and safe space for marginalized group of people/drug users? Because, when I see threads like this, heaven knows I don't know what to think
> 
> 
> Like, OMG!! This thread is still open and no posts have been deleted by staff!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who would have thought?!



Unless you actually know the races, and sex of everyone that's ever been here on bluelight, just browsed/lurked here, and posted in the anonymous forums but never registered, you have no way of claiming or even knowing things like, "Most posters here are white males...".  Even informal polls or a census would not tell you this as not everyone is interested in taking or filling this out, or will answer truthfully.

Long before you ever came here, and long before bluelight moderators and admins became so obsessed with being Politically Correct, when I first came to this site one of the first people who I met was an Asian woman who has since then passed on.  Rest in peace.  I have also met people here on bluelight who were from West Asia and parts of the Middle East, and they are "white males".  A lot of the hardcore leftists here are extremely provincial and ignorant to the fact that "white people" are not all of European descent.  There are "white people" or large ethnic groups of white people in Asian countries, parts of the Middle East/Westhern Asia, Northern African countries, and in the Caucasus between Europe and Asia, and the Levant of course.  In the United States not all white males are politically conservative. Despite the echo chamber of CEP and the Western world's media, who are all fear-mongering bleating chicken little types that go on about how "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! OMG Donald Trump won the Presidency in the United States!? The Unite States is now Fascist! Fascism is taking over the world again! Most white males in North America/Western/Eastern/Southern Europe are racist!" cries from leftists. The majority of people in the world are not fascist, and just because someone is not a hardcore leftist or does not agree with something a marxist/leftist posts or argues for, it does not mean that they are fascist, support fascism, etc.

There's nothing wrong with anyone being white, or a man, or of European/Caucasian descent. Just as there's nothing wrong with anyone of any race, women, or "people of color".  But something that people who are "woke" often forget or are completely ignorant to is that "people of color" can also be extremely racist both towards people of their own race, and people of other races.  The "woke" theory that a "person of color" or who is black, or latino, or any combination of races simply cannot be racist is completely laughable and it just shows how little these people know and how they do not live in reality.

Anyway, your post is just yet another example of what myself and others who are posting in this topic are writing about what's been happening in CEP and other forums on here for the past five years or so.

We used to be able to have civil discussions/debates in CEP and other forums, and things were a lot more transparent as Zypher posted with the love bandit's quoted post, but for awhile now, you have power hungry admins and moderators who are leftists or who have biases who either troll or allow others to troll people who write things they do not personally agree with, or will shut down anything they do not like or agree with, or worse ask for examples of things in a debate and then when such things are shown delete/lock/un-approve the thread claiming that it is now completely off topic.

Bluelight's harm reduction used to be alright, it has been nothing but a total joke the past few years or so.

Also many of us former moderators tried to change things, but gave up because of the power hungry bureaucracy that's now in place.  Captain Heroin explained all of this in his video that I saw.


----------



## zephyr

^  I found that post TLB made at the end of a very entertaining/hilarious/drama filled thread which seems to have been sparked by airing of some issues not dealt with by reasonable talk.


Seemed to do some good at the time and i guess BP had hoped to achieve something similar.

Dunno, I hope he reads this and comes back .



This thread should be open,  used and responded to by staff as its the purpose of this forum to have this available.


Snarky "omg this is not closed or unapproved by staff" is not helpful apart from a reality check for everyone to read TLB's words again.  

Good post Priest.


----------



## Jabberwocky

PriestTheyCalledHim said:


> Unless you actually know the races, and sex of everyone that's ever been here on bluelight, just browsed/lurked here, and posted in the anonymous forums but never registered, you have no way of claiming or even knowing things like, "Most posters here are white males...".  Even informal polls or a census would not tell you this as not everyone is interested in taking or filling this out, or will answer truthfully.



It's the best guess we have as to who uses the site at the moment. Feel free to do your own research, but somehow I doubt you'll come up with something more scientific than our Director of Research: http://bluelight.org/vb/content/287-census



> Long before you ever came here, and long before bluelight moderators and admins became so obsessed with being Politically Correct, when I first came to this site one of the first people who I met was an Asian woman who has since then passed on.  Rest in peace.  I have also met people here on bluelight who were from West Asia and parts of the Middle East, and they are "white males".  A lot of the hardcore leftists here are extremely provincial and ignorant to the fact that "white people" are not all of European descent.  There are "white people" or large ethnic groups of white people in Asian countries, parts of the Middle East/Westhern Asia, Northern African countries, and in the Caucasus between Europe and Asia, and the Levant of course.  In the United States not all white males are politically conservative. Despite the echo chamber of CEP and the Western world's media, who are all fear-mongering bleating chicken little types that go on about how "The sky is falling! The sky is falling! OMG Donald Trump won the Presidency in the United States!? The Unite States is now Fascist! Fascism is taking over the world again! Most white males in North America/Western/Eastern/Southern Europe are racist!" cries from leftists. The majority of people in the world are not fascist, and just because someone is not a hardcore leftist or does not agree with something a marxist/leftist posts or argues for, it does not mean that they are fascist, support fascism, etc.



I'm not complaining about people who identify as white males per se. I'm referring to the function of white privilege, hegemony and implicit bias. That seems to be the status quo of American politics at the moment. Or do you disagree American politics are a significant influence in CE&P at the moment? 



> There's nothing wrong with anyone being white, or a man, or of European/Caucasian descent. Just as there's nothing wrong with anyone of any race, women, or "people of color".  But something that people who are "woke" often forget or are completely ignorant to is that "people of color" can also be extremely racist both towards people of their own race, and people of other races.  The "woke" theory that a "person of color" or who is black, or latino, or any combination of races simply cannot be racist is completely laughable and it just shows how little these people know and how they do not live in reality.



Who is saying a person of color can't be racist, isn't affected by white privilege or implicit bias? I never said such a thing. People of color do tend to be affected differently than people who inherent white privilege though, but I never said white people aren't also harmed by hegemony.



> Anyway, your post is just yet another example of what myself and others who are posting in this topic are writing about what's been happening in CEP and other forums on here for the past five years or so.



So apply to become a mod and do something about it! You chose to leave staff, remember? Unless you actually have concrete suggestions or want to try and donate your time to help run the site, not sure how seriously I can take your complaint here. 

Things need to change on here, sure. They always are and always do. Are you willing to help change them beyond just waxing a waining about the "good ole days?"



> We used to be able to have civil discussions/debates in CEP and other forums, and things were a lot more transparent as Zypher posted with the love bandit's quoted post, but for awhile now, you have power hungry admins and moderators who are leftists or who have biases who either troll or allow others to troll people who write things they do not personally agree with, or will shut down anything they do not like or agree with, or worse ask for examples of things in a debate and then when such things are shown delete/lock/un-approve the thread claiming that it is now completely off topic.



You chose to leave staff. You are happy to complain about how the site is run. Wonderful 



> Bluelight's harm reduction used to be alright, it has been nothing but a total joke the past few years or so.



Since when was CE&P the heart of BL's harm reduction mission? It's an important community subforum, and it is part of a harm reduction site, but it isn't exactly a harm reduction specific forums where people come to drug policy or public health right now. 

Right now people seem more interested in discussing how fucking insane politics are with the state of the world. There is only so much room in the subforum for explicit discussion of harm reduction beyond that. 

You want more harm reduction discussion in CE&P? Start engaging in it. 



> Also many of us former moderators tried to change things, but gave up because of the power hungry bureaucracy that's now in place.  Captain Heroin explained all of this in his video that I saw.



Captain.Heroin also decided to stay on staff. You chose to make like a tree and gtfo out of Dodge. 

You're always free to run away, just like you're always free to come back and complain about why you left.

Now, the thing is, you have actually done a lot for the development of BL. I'm not trying to deny that. The work you've done to support BL is none of the people who are still on staff when you did it have forgotten. 

You _were_ someone whom I respected for how they had supported struggling drug users trying to better their lives. Maybe then you'll understand why I felt pretty depressed when I noticed you had begun ignoring (or forgot?) the mod handbook (you know, the one you agreed to follow when you originally came on staff?). 

At some point, around when I came on SL staff, you started becoming more and more confrontational with users about their drug use. You were criticize for your harsh, judgmental treatment of drug users on here. You didn't want to hear it, eventually you got fed up, then you left. Am I missing something?

Am I the reason you left? To a degree, perhaps I was. I certainly played a role in helping to make SL more inclusive beyond an abstinence only approach to recovery, something that you didn't seem too happy about. 

I asked you to cut it out when you posted judgmental responses to people struggling with harmful patterns of drug use. I did it because this is a harm reduction forum. But I didn't make you leave. You chose to do that, because you deduced you weren't okay with how harm reduction is support to meet people where they're at - even when it means where they're at is making really foolish decisions.


----------



## zephyr

TP dog: what do you think running the site involves specifically,  who are you running the site to benefit and what do you want to achieve by not addressing any area of improvement needed at your level or any other?

Mate you are part of the problem.  

I strongly urge you to take as much time as you need to,  take your defenses down,  sit on the toilet and smoke a cone, read TLB's post until it sinks in that you MUST listen to us.  

If that is not reasonable then why are you on staff?

You are here for us.  That is your job and the time it takes you signed up for.

We members did not volunteer and do not have the responsibilities you volunteered for,  many have left in disgust as they were never listened to.

Its a big mistake to deflect a criticism back as a personal attack without addressing the issue.

What can you do to help?  Is this just damage control because troll seriously?  

Getting off staff is giving up as not even the staff are listened to or taken seriously.


----------



## Jabberwocky

I loved what you shared from TLB. 

You just struck the nail on the head though. It's hard to listen to someone when they're attacking you. The difficulty is that I'm tired of people like Droppers doing their damnest to fuck with BLers, staff, etc. 

Frankly zephyr, a lot of your exchanges on BL haven't been making it any easier. Maybe spend less time attacking staff?  Getting attacked sucks, doesn't it? With everything you've been through, I imagine you understand what its like better than most. 

Staff are obligated to listen to you, but I'm not sure we're obligated to listen to people when the bulk of what they post is inflammatory and combative. But even then, we do listen. We do take your complaints seriously. It's just that, today at least, I was tired of giving everyone a free pass on their ranting and ravings. That isn't how we improve BL, we improve it by having a "civil" discussion (which, thankfully, seems to be the direction this thread is going in). 

This thread _is_ for all parties to speak up. Staff are listening. I'm listening. But I'm also tired of taking shit from people who either clearly have their own agenda (Droppers, Priest, etc) who only seem interested in complaining but helping to improve the site. 

As the quote you posted from TLB said, if it's up to staff to listen to members, it's up to the members to make BL what they want. Complaining alone doesn't make that happen. Constructive suggestions would, but I don't see a lot of that here.

So, on that note, I think I'll take your advice to heart and relax before revisiting this topic.


----------



## zephyr

Mate I know its hard to take people attacking you.

Its hard on anyone and addressing issues is hard to do without hurting people unintentionally.

Why do you think I went to SG in the first place?

Theres no way of talking to staff or any other bluelighter to tell them what they are doing is wrong without pissing them off.

So yes you are part of the problem, you are not THE problem,  its a problem thats never going to be totally fixed,  just maintained so the future bl is a better place.

The thing that you can do to help is to not just automatically spring to the defense of your fellow staff just because they are staff.  Its making you an enemy and us an enemy.  We arent goddammit,  we are all here because we want to be.

What seems to be happening currently is the lack of input and head to head discussion with EVERYONE.

Its a good thing youre here and willing to talk so thankyou,  Im sure you can encourage others who would be happy to talk in staff to be capable of talking here where it matters.


----------



## Jabberwocky

I like how TLB's note pointed out that is it senior staff's job to listen to the moderators


----------



## Droppersneck

Ya I’m not attacking anyone, nor do I have an agenda. Other than to make CEP not die like the last forum I cared about, the lounge. I’ll give it as simply as I can;
> CEP traffic is driven by opposing view points IE conservatives. 
>personal bias and a different standard for conservative posters is running them off 
>no conservative posters and CEP is a circle jerk where traffic is low 

I reckon some may want a circle jerk, but im simply trying to ‘be the change’. This is all in good faith and mainly bc this place reminds me of some of my buddies that are gone.


----------



## Jabberwocky

How do you suggest we avoid running posters off when they post comments that break the User Agreement?

Here are an example from today of what I'm referring to:



Max Flight said:


> Hmmm? My reply just disappeared. Odd, that.
> I will try again. And staying on topic, as not to offend anyone with "bs conspiracy theories".
> 
> So...does anyone else think that it's a bad idea to "rape " someone by ordering them to perform oral sex on you? I am able to see potential problems with it. A toothy blow job at the very least. I mean seriously....it's such a self degrading act.
> 
> I did see a movie in which someone did this exact thing. Although, he took the precaution of knocking the person's teeth out first.



The biggest opportunity to improve CE&P has to do with how we deal with members who make it really hard for staff to do their job, ostensibly because they feel like others don't approve of their brand of politics. 

Instead of engaging in a "civil" discussion, their comments become increasingly combative. Generally their posts don't include BLUA violations as egregious as my example here, but there tends to be a clear and persistent pattern of escalation. 

How do people suggest we deal with these users? This seems to be the heart of the problem if complaints aren't with posts that obviously break the User Agreement.


----------



## zephyr

Tpd hopefully other blrs can chime in and help out and this thread can have as many voices as possible.

Ill answer later and not postwhore as thats counterproductive as well,  theres people on line lurking so speak up 




Its a little more complex than just a user agreement and following a system which could be operated by a bot as it is,  if Im not gonna crash out Ill go back and see how things were done by others .  The blua hasnt changed much and theres always been potential breaches- how did bl cope with that for a long time without resorting to all these bans/ unapproval/ alleged mod helicopter parenting?

Its driving people away, clearly so alternatives are needed if input is wanted.


Theres heaps of people around and can advise,  lakia tried to help me but I didnt listen so theres that too.  Are mods prepared to listen?  Doesnt seem like they are in cep.  Theres 4 of them and Tath seemed like he would avoid infractions unless no choice ,  he can post for himself though as maybe hes changed.




EDIT    That post does not break the blua ,  not at all.  So I cant see what the problem is with that post.

What blua specifically?

Seems like it was removed as mod not like it which is not a reason to remove it.

Mods in cep are making it hard on themselves by behaving as they are,  analysing every person and asuming their intent and finding any reason at all to drive them out.

Its pretty obvious that theres not much time wasting going on,  the 2 individual mods are online a hell of a lot with not much traffic.

I put it to them that their actions are not in line with the blua or in the spirit of community growth.

So an option would be to address our concerns,  change like you expect everyone else to or maybe its them that should leave staff and just contribute like they did before.


----------



## Droppersneck

toothpastedog said:


> How do you suggest we avoid running posters off when they post comments that break the User Agreement?
> 
> Here are an example from today of what I'm referring to:
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest opportunity to improve CE&P has to do with how we deal with members who make it really hard for staff to do their job, ostensibly because they feel like others don't approve of their brand of politics.
> 
> Instead of engaging in a "civil" discussion, their comments become increasingly combative. Generally their posts don't include BLUA violations as egregious as my example here, but there tends to be a clear and persistent pattern of escalation.
> 
> How do people suggest we deal with these users? This seems to be the heart of the problem if complaints aren't with posts that obviously break the User Agreement.


Never seen the weird poster you posted above before, I don’t think that represents cep. All I’m saying is if you guys want to hold insane sjw standards like ‘being against illegal immigration is hate speech’, ‘being for voter ID is racist’, ‘using unfavorable statistics is problematic’, and the list goes on to infinity.. at least add it some sort of list of rules instead of slowely arbitrarily enforcing rules against posters that hold these beliefs. Makes for less alienation and far less drama, to say things haven’t changed since 2016 is simply dishonest. Let’s all move on, one way or the other.


----------



## zephyr

toothpastedog said:


> I like how TLB's note pointed out that is it senior staff's job to listen to the moderators



Ok I'll address this and offer some suggestions to you and CFC who from recollection is also senior mod of cep (is this correct?).

Ok. I dont know why you like this particular piece of that very useful post TLB laid down,  it gives the impression that you are not actually really that interested in anything anyone besides them has to say.  That is very discouraging and maybe approaching you is a waste of my time,  anyones time but day off so whatever.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here despite this and hope you come to the party.

What can you do to resolve complaints about the current moderators in cep?

1) There are 4 mods listed and only 2 are active so as a senior moderator can you address this to make sure the mod spots are all in use?  To be honest its not helping not having the balance and perspective of all four.

At what point do you say to mods that they arent pullinf their weight and then need to be replaced?  Its a volunteer position,  has to be in use and if they cant anymore then fine, maybe get another staff member to fill in and be seen to fill in until they return or just replaced.

2)  Even if you are not that interested in the content or subject matter of every thread,  I suggest you read them anyway and see for yourself what is the pattern of behaviour in them.  Its better that way than to just get involved remotely when theres reported posts or complaints from other blrs.  Dont take any one persons word as verbatim and keep an eye on everyone.  That way you can step in and nudge mods quietly when they are out of line themselves.  It happens, their actions are questionable right now but maybe they just dont get told.

3)  Instead of unapproving posts like your example try responding and pointing out the issue.  Folks who wander in and are not regulars are the people you can work with to make cep grow.  Being approachable and helpful isnt that hard is it?

4) If the above suggestion is beyond the ability of the current active mods then Im pretty sure that yourself and CFC can help them since you both are able to converse quite well here and across the board.

5) Not really a suggestion but a thank you for responding to this,  some of your points are hard to digest as it seems you are just dismissing anything put to you as rubbish.  Dropperz has shot himself in the foot by being a reddit troll and he knows it. Priest is crew and dont know the guy but his arguments are perfectly valid.  I suppose he would have to make suggestions again or just point out hes tried many times and just hit the wall.

As for me and my actions here been seen like you see them- I kinda get it but regret not much at all.  Ill pm you tomorrow


----------



## swilow

I thought this thread concluded pretty neatly after CFC's graph. The metric by which you judge the success of a web forum is certainly not the level of welcome felt by a small group of people who have trolled the fuck our of it both on and offsite for literally years. Its the amount of posts, and whether they are increasing or not. Of course, a number of factors contribute to that kind of thing over the last year, from the current interest in politics due to Trump, to the stricter/harsher penalty system Bluelight adopted at roughly a similar time (I think, I am ready to stand corrected there) but it isn't really fair to simply dismiss these numbers. Maybe some things are being done well? 

Anyway, I had avoided weighing in earlier because I had waited to see if anything more substantial than a bunch of vague allusions had been posted but, as with the other 3-4 iterations of effectively the same topic, not much really has been. If the problem is as widespread as I am hearing, there really shouldn't be any difficulty in linking to some examples of staff infracting or banning for _opinions_ and not _content_ or _conduct_. Without this, its hard to not judge the intentions of the people participating as (once again) insincere. It seems like a certain bias of their own is playing out. 

There seems to be a common and unfortunate perception that because the current mod team are left-wing, that we are going to 'favour' people on our own side but I've personally had to infract people from both sides of the political spectrum, including ex-, and current, staff. I can understand how there could be suspicion of bias, and I can see how it might feel like bias if you're conservative and get an infraction for calling someone a "fucking cunt" or whatever by a left wing mod. I'm not sure how we can shift this perception, or counter it: I'm open to suggestions though. 

I know I won't be believed, but I promise you guys that we aren't trying to censor conservative/right-wing views, and the idea that we are is one that I would love to be able to change; I agree with Droppersneck that dissenting opinions are the key to creating discussion, and that is literally the whole point of this place so anything that discourages it is of course undesirable; but there is simply zero tolerance for any sort of abusive language, or any racist/bigoted/sexist/whatever language. From both sides. I don't know, it doesn't seem like _that_ onerous a burden under which to have a discussion.

As I've said before, if you are unsure about whether to post something or want clarification about a staff decision, please (calmly) PM one of us and we can discuss it. If you see something that you don't like or think breaks the rules, report it or PM us. We are willing and open to listening, nothing is set in stone. We aren't perfect, we can always improve but the community needs to help in this respect too.



			
				Droppersneck said:
			
		

> Let?s all move on, one way or the other.



I agree


----------



## Droppersneck

swilow said:


> I thought this thread concluded pretty neatly after CFC's graph. The metric by which you judge the success of a web forum is certainly not the level of welcome felt by a small group of people who have trolled the fuck our of it both on and offsite for literally years. Its the amount of posts, and whether they are increasing or not. Of course, a number of factors contribute to that kind of thing over the last year, from the current interest in politics due to Trump, to the stricter/harsher penalty system Bluelight adopted at roughly a similar time (I think, I am ready to stand corrected there) but it isn't really fair to simply dismiss these numbers. Maybe some things are being done well?
> 
> Anyway, I had avoided weighing in earlier because I had waited to see if anything more substantial than a bunch of vague allusions had been posted but, as with the other 3-4 iterations of effectively the same topic, not much really has been. If the problem is as widespread as I am hearing, there really shouldn't be any difficulty in linking to some examples of staff infracting or banning for _opinions_ and not _content_ or _conduct_. Without this, its hard to not judge the intentions of the people participating as (once again) insincere. It seems like a certain bias of their own is playing out.
> 
> There seems to be a common and unfortunate perception that because the current mod team are left-wing, that we are going to 'favour' people on our own side but I've personally had to infract people from both sides of the political spectrum, including ex-, and current, staff. I can understand how there could be suspicion of bias, and I can see how it might feel like bias if you're conservative and get an infraction for calling someone a "fucking cunt" or whatever by a left wing mod. I'm not sure how we can shift this perception, or counter it: I'm open to suggestions though.
> 
> I know I won't be believed, but I promise you guys that we aren't trying to censor conservative/right-wing views, and the idea that we are is one that I would love to be able to change; I agree with Droppersneck that dissenting opinions are the key to creating discussion, and that is literally the whole point of this place so anything that discourages it is of course undesirable; but there is simply zero tolerance for any sort of abusive language, or any racist/bigoted/sexist/whatever language. From both sides. I don't know, it doesn't seem like _that_ onerous a burden under which to have a discussion.
> 
> As I've said before, if you are unsure about whether to post something or want clarification about a staff decision, please (calmly) PM one of us and we can discuss it. If you see something that you don't like or think breaks the rules, report it or PM us. We are willing and open to listening, nothing is set in stone. We aren't perfect, we can always improve but the community needs to help in this respect too.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree



We need to hear from jgrimez when he comes off ban on the 17th. Then this can be concluded imo. After all much of that traffic is the result of his and a few others debate. He’s probably gotten the most unfavorable shake since he argues his points so effectively and sites them. Clearly it gets under people’s skin so they infract him for and throw ad Homs freely. That’s just my experience, plenty of stuff I’ve wanted to report, but know the report button is a quick way to get infracted. Let’s hear him out, and then hopefully we can move on.


----------



## Jabberwocky

zephyr said:


> Its driving people away, clearly so alternatives are needed if input is wanted.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT    That post does not break the blua ,  not at all.  So I cant see what the problem is with that post.



To clear up some mistaken assumptions: staff is (a) open to moving forward with the situation in CE&P, (b) working to continue moving forward with the situation in CE&P, and (c) are not as thrilled as some make them out to seem with it as things stand right now. 

The post above was infracted for content that was a clause (4) violation. Would you like to argue that the above post does not _victimize, harass, degrade, or intimidate an individual or group of individuals_? 

It's a lot easier to complain about how CE&P is being run when someone isn't taking any responsibility to help run it or tone down the hostility.



Droppersneck said:


> Never seen the weird poster you posted above before, I don’t think that represents cep. All I’m saying is if you guys want to hold insane sjw standards like ‘being against illegal immigration is hate speech’, ‘being for voter ID is racist’, ‘using unfavorable statistics is problematic’, and the list goes on to infinity.. at least add it some sort of list of rules instead of slowely arbitrarily enforcing rules against posters that hold these beliefs. Makes for less alienation and far less drama, to say things haven’t changed since 2016 is simply dishonest. Let’s all move on, one way or the other.



Where are these sjw standards you speak of? I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone violated because "being against illegal immigration is hate speech," etc. Those are not rules and are not enforceable. 

I guess I'll have to wait for you to wait for someone with a computer to provide examples of all these abuses you keep referencing without referencing in CE&P. That's some impressive dharma combat. 



zephyr said:


> Ok I'll address this and offer some suggestions to you and CFC who from recollection is also senior mod of cep (is this correct?).
> 
> Ok. I dont know why you like this particular piece of that very useful post TLB laid down,  it gives the impression that you are not actually really that interested in anything anyone besides them has to say.  That is very discouraging and maybe approaching you is a waste of my time,  anyones time but day off so whatever.
> 
> I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here despite this and hope you come to the party.
> 
> What can you do to resolve complaints about the current moderators in cep?
> 
> 1) There are 4 mods listed and only 2 are active so as a senior moderator can you address this to make sure the mod spots are all in use?  To be honest its not helping not having the balance and perspective of all four.
> 
> At what point do you say to mods that they arent pullinf their weight and then need to be replaced?  Its a volunteer position,  has to be in use and if they cant anymore then fine, maybe get another staff member to fill in and be seen to fill in until they return or just replaced.
> 
> 2)  Even if you are not that interested in the content or subject matter of every thread,  I suggest you read them anyway and see for yourself what is the pattern of behaviour in them.  Its better that way than to just get involved remotely when theres reported posts or complaints from other blrs.  Dont take any one persons word as verbatim and keep an eye on everyone.  That way you can step in and nudge mods quietly when they are out of line themselves.  It happens, their actions are questionable right now but maybe they just dont get told.
> 
> 3)  Instead of unapproving posts like your example try responding and pointing out the issue.  Folks who wander in and are not regulars are the people you can work with to make cep grow.  Being approachable and helpful isnt that hard is it?
> 
> 4) If the above suggestion is beyond the ability of the current active mods then Im pretty sure that yourself and CFC can help them since you both are able to converse quite well here and across the board.
> 
> 5) Not really a suggestion but a thank you for responding to this,  some of your points are hard to digest as it seems you are just dismissing anything put to you as rubbish.  Dropperz has shot himself in the foot by being a reddit troll and he knows it. Priest is crew and dont know the guy but his arguments are perfectly valid.  I suppose he would have to make suggestions again or just point out hes tried many times and just hit the wall.
> 
> As for me and my actions here been seen like you see them- I kinda get it but regret not much at all.  Ill pm you tomorrow



I highlighted the one point that you made that sounds like a really good idea for us to work on. Regarding staff going MIA, that is one of the things being addressed right now, finding other people to bring onboard to help run CE&P. 

I singled out the point about smods listening to mods because it is very germane to my role as a smod. If the people who have stuck around and are currently picking up the slack in CE&P, it's my role to listen to them regardless of anyone's political leanings. I don't get the sense anyone complaining in this thread has even tried to listen to swilow or cduggles or support them in any significant when it comes to their role as CE&P mods. 

Complaining is a lot easier I guess. 

Yesterday, I made a point of responding in kind to comments made in this thread. Someone was hostile and venting their frustration? I was happy to vent right back. Someone suggested something that might be helpful, I expressed my gratitude and pointed out commonality. 

Perhaps I'll try a different approach today.



Droppersneck said:


> We need to hear from jgrimez when he comes off ban on the 17th. Then this can be concluded imo. After all much of that traffic is the result of his and a few others debate. He’s probably gotten the most unfavorable shake since he argues his points so effectively and sites them. Clearly it gets under people’s skin so they infract him for and throw ad Homs freely. That’s just my experience, plenty of stuff I’ve wanted to report, but know the report button is a quick way to get infracted. Let’s hear him out, and then hopefully we can move on.



JGrimez is a perfect example of why it is so hard to mod CE&P right now. 

He is disruptive or ignores forum guidelines. He is warned or infracted. He then escalates. The cycle continues. Eventually he gets banned. He continues where he left off without changing much about how he posts. Then he steps over the line with CE&P staff and gets banned again. And here we are. 

It _will_ be interesting to see what he contributions to this thread when his ban ends.



zephyr said:


> Theres no way of talking to staff or any other bluelighter to tell them what they are doing is wrong without pissing them off.



As someone much wiser than me once said, "Yes, there is. It's just that some people aren't very good at it."


----------



## etnies

Fresh in from a 6 month ban 

Also, there's literally no point of this thread, how do you think it's going to turn out? At this point it's just a left wing circle jerk. If you have a different opinion they label a "troll" delete your posts and then ban.



PriestTheyCalledHim said:


> Even though certain admins and moderators will now claim or post in this thread and elsewhere, "that there's no political bias at all here..." it is true that if you post anything that certain people do not agree with that your post or threads will be edited, deleted, or you will get warned/infractions/banned, called racist, fascist, or other slurs/accusations that are not true, etc. and people who post pro-leftist BS are allowed to flame/harass people who do not agree with the leftist rhetoric.



oh hmm next time I'll actually read some of the posts that matter before replying. Great post dude.



Droppersneck said:


> ?being against illegal immigration is hate speech? ?using unfavorable statistics is problematic



Lol! Good times. 

http://bluelight.org/vb/threads/835...nt-of-people-sent-to-prison-for-gang-rape-are


----------



## alasdairm

another noble, free-thinker who's oppressed for his politcal views and censored for simply having a different opinion?

let's take a look:



etnies said:


> Shut the fuck up you pleb.





etnies said:


> Don't ever call me a kid and if you EVER threaten me again. It won't end well for you.
> 
> Since you probably still live in your mothers basement and have no work ethic (nice post count and join date) I'll personally give you my address and pay for your flight to come and punch me in the face.





			
				etnies said:
			
		

> Go fuck yourself



oh no. my mistake. just another abusive bluelighter who can't communicate civilly then turns around and cries about being oppressed when we issue an infraction for the insults.

nothing to see here. thank you. drive through.

alasdair


----------



## etnies

What does shit I said have to do with how biased this place has become?

nothing to see here. thank you. drive through.

Also, that's cute the "shut the fuck up you pleb" was from when Scrofula said he was going to punch me in the face but yet I somehow got banned for that one. He didn't get banned though, he got promoted to mod of other drugs.

nothing to see here. thank you. drive through.


----------



## CFC

etnies said:


> Also, that's cute the "shut the fuck up you pleb" was from when Scrofula said he was going to punch me in the face but yet I somehow got banned for that one. He didn't get banned though, he got promoted to mod of other drugs.




That's completely disingenuous and dishonest. I explained in pretty straightforward terms why I infracted you for abuse. The incident you're pretending it's related to regarding Scrofula actually earnt him an infraction as well.




> Dear etnies,
> 
> You've received an infraction for the following:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @mal3volent you're quite funny. Your avatar is literally a symbol used in the 3rd Reich. Shut the fuck up you pleb.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's perfectly possible to make any points you may have without descending to the use of abusive language. Please refrain in future.
> 
> Regards,
> CFC
Click to expand...


----------



## mal3volent

It scarred me so much I changed my av


----------



## etnies

CFC said:


> That's completely disingenuous and dishonest. I explained in pretty straightforward terms why I infracted you for abuse. The incident you're pretending it's related to regarding Scrofula actually earnt him an infraction as well.



Well, feel free to explain again in Pm's. Don't post it here because I promise you nobody cares. Also, his posts were deleted where he called me a Nazi and said he was going to "get me" if I'm wrong, I don't care, if I'm right, I still don't care.  This isn't about me or what I've said. It's about how toxic this place is, so by Ali bringing up my old posts all he did was kind of further prove the OP's post.

edit: oh, it seems I had two those old posts of mine mixed up. Sorry I didn't have time to dig through my post history from shit that happened like a year ago and see who I was talking to in what post.


----------



## swilow

Etnnies said:
			
		

> Also, his posts were deleted where he called me a Nazi



Don't post material created by Scandinavian neo nazi groups then.


----------



## etnies

swilow said:


> Don't post material created by Scandinavian neo nazi groups then.



"created"

1) That happened before I made that thread
2) I posted 3 other sources in that thread

but let me guess, since you didn't like the sources you dismissed them. Since then there has been literally fucking waves and waves of the same shit happening all over Europe but I'm sure they are all fake since they are just all nazis. Look man, this isn't even about me. But keep going....I'll be here until I'm banned again which I'm sure won't be long.


----------



## swilow

etnies said:


> I'll be here until I'm banned again which I'm sure won't be long.



As I said in my reply to your PM, its up to you. I have nothing invested in you either posting here or not.



> but let me guess, since you didn't like the sources you dismissed them. Since then there has been literally fucking waves and waves of the same shit happening and now main sites are reporting on it but I'm sure they are all fake since they are just all nazis. Look man, this isn't even about me. But keep going....



One of your sources was a Scandinavian Neo-Nazi group called Nordfront. If being called a Nazi makes you want to punch people, don't use those sort of sources? I don't know mate, seems simple to me.


----------



## etnies

swilow said:


> As I said in my reply to your PM, its up to you. I have nothing invested in you either posting here or not.
> 
> 
> 
> One of your sources was a Scandinavian Neo-Nazi group called Nordfront. If being called a Nazi makes you want to punch people, don't use those sort of sources? I don't know mate, seems simple to me.



But you just said it was created by Nordfront. I was called a Nazi and threatened with a punch, I never said I wanted to punch anyone. Please stay on topic, seems simple to me. Or just keep posting and proving droppers point.


----------



## swilow

> Don't ever call me a kid and if you EVER threaten me again. It won't end well for you.



Sorry, I mixed up the pointless tough guy threats. My bad. 

Look, you are welcome to post in CEP. I have made that abundantly clear- I don't care if you do or don't tbh. Bu you evidently want to, having returned from a ban quite promptly. Its very simple, follow the rules. Don't abuse or threaten people.


----------



## alasdairm

etnies said:


> What does shit I said have to do with how biased this place has become?


there's a (false) narrative being peddled here that people like jgrimez, sos78 and yourself are being oppressed, targeted for your political opinions and infracted unfairly.

play the martyr all you want but i'm demonstrating - with crystal clear examples - that it's actually because you're just abusive.

alasdair


----------



## etnies

swilow said:


> Sorry, I mixed up the pointless tough guy threats. My bad.



Oh, so now it's a "tough guy threat" to tell someone not to threaten me. 

Just stop typing at me. You have nothing. 



alasdairm said:


> there's a (false) narrative being peddled here that people like jgrimez, sos78 and yourself are being oppressed, targeted for your political opinions and infracted unfairly.





PriestTheyCalledHim said:


> Even though certain admins and moderators will now claim or post in this thread and elsewhere, "that there's no political bias at all here..."


----------



## Droppersneck

Etnies you’ve made your point. Chill, I want a few others on ban to weigh in here.


----------



## alasdairm

i have never claimed there's "_no bias_". in fact i said as much _earlier in this thread_.

when you cry oppression and you've been infracted, numerous times, for abuse, i'm sorry but you just look like idiots. not only that, you completely devalue any valid complaints and make it less likely that they'll be properly heard. as a wise friend once said: if you bake a cake, you eat a cake.

alasdair


----------



## etnies

Once again this isn't about me. It's about the "false" narrative being peddled here. How many times do I have to say that before you understand?


----------



## alasdairm

it is about you. you made it about you.

you post your opinion. i post my opinion. people can decide for themselves. that's how it works.

alasdair


----------



## zephyr

This thread is just a Trump bashing thread and a Trump supporter bashing thread.  Ill add cduggles infraction for public viewing as soon as you agree to it Ali.   I called it what it is- a bloody Trump bashing thread and it actually is!!!!!!!!!@#$#

I really dont mind at all public record. In fact TLB said transparency was required.  So?





This attitude is the problem.  Whats the point in even bothering with "debating" with people who claim they are open to ideas yet are not really, as everything they cant be bothered with is then just decided as shit just because THEY arent interested?  What about anybody else?  No one can get a word in without being ridiculed and their ideas closed and infracted away.

You are part of this Ali. So is sj but I doubt he would be infracting people,  hes just a hot head .  

NO BODY CAN GET A BLOODY WORD IN MATE.





This is jessFR,

 If life is too short to endlessly harrass jgrimez then why do you do it, be allowed to do it, consistently and enjoy the company of cduggles, ali, sj, ch,  in maligning him?

Its horrible. Its like watching 8 yo bullies bash a new kid in school.

Your attitudes are so rude is it any wonder youre getting rudeness back ?

AGAIN, YOU CLEARLY HAVE THE ALT PARANOIAS SO PROVE IT OR MAKE LIKE A SCUBA AND BAN HIM THEN. 





Pot,kettle.






Off topic posting,  not targeted like it is towards others. I wonder why that is.? 

Im not going to bother screenshotting the whole ET tangent in the CO2 thread. No one was on topic then!





Here is an example of jgrimez trying to follow the rules and be on topic.

Funny how any thread can just turn into a Trump bashing thread though right?

  I dont care about left or right stuff,  the cep mob are just behaving as rotten as the rat pack in the lounge were.






So. Am I going to cop another infraction for continual cep disruption cduggles?  You have no power here.

Ali? Sj?


----------



## zephyr

Cduggles.













The way you two mods have bashed the shit out of this guy and been joined in with by those who should know better- is disgraceful.

DISGRACEFUL!!!!!

The hypocrisy, yes HYPOCRISY of this situation....damn....


You complained about the lounge being so hateful and cheered the public firing of 2 mods there (one of which i kinda agree with so go me)  yet you are allowing this to happen?


Bullies. I hate bullies.


----------



## alasdairm

^ swilow's post there is perfectly civil and i just don't see how you can characterise it as "_bashing the shit_" out of somebody.

if you want to see what bashing the shit out out of somebody looks like, i could post a few very eye-opening pms i've received recently...



CosmicG said:


> ...it's kind of sad none of the moderators have anything to say in regards to what is being said.





zephyr said:


> NO BODY CAN GET A BLOODY WORD IN MATE.
> ...
> No one can get a word in...


say nothing. get criticised. say something. get criticised.

q.e.d.



zephyr said:


> Here is an example of jgrimez trying to follow the rukes and be on topic.


and? he was not infracted for this post so i'm not sure what your point is.

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

Thanks for digging through this stuff zep, jgrimez is simply disrupts narratives. It appears he’s a target, just like liquid method. Now we are starting to get somewhere.


----------



## tathra

Droppersneck said:


> It appears he’s a target, just like liquid method.



well they are the same person, after all, so naturally there's going to be similarities in how they appear.


----------



## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> It appears he’s a target


yep. he's a target and he'll continue to be a target if he can't find a way to stop posting like this:



JGrimez said:


> No offense but can you please shut the fuck up...





Droppersneck said:


> ...just like liquid method.


fancy that.

alasdair


----------



## zephyr

alasdairm said:


> ^ swilow's post there is perfectly civil and i just don't see how you can characterise it as "_bashing the shit_" out of somebody.
> 
> if you want to see what bashing the shit out out of somebody looks like, i could post a few very eye-opening pms i've received recently...
> 
> 
> 
> say nothing. get criticised. say something. get criticised.
> 
> q.e.d.
> 
> and? he was not infracted for this post so i'm not sure what your point is.
> 
> alasdair



Ali I could hold up an elephant in front of your face and you would refuse to see it.

You have all the access to every single action by every staff member.   

This is totally pointless right?

You are corrupted.

Dammit Ali!

You should see the pms Ive gotten!  

Is it any wonder theres no love at all between us?

Well,

Im just going to leave feedback,  cep is a horrible place, it is a blot on an otherwise quiet yet ok bl, 

Ali you are part of the problem and Im part of the problem.


Theres no communication with you.


----------



## etnies

alasdairm said:


> it is about you. you made it about you.
> 
> you post your opinion. i post my opinion. people can decide for themselves. that's how it works.
> 
> alasdair



I made this about me? No, that would be you. You were the one who took the time to read my old posts and post them. All I did in my first post was agree with the OP. 

Got anything else for me?


----------



## alasdairm

^ sure. have a stellar day.

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

zephyr said:


> This is totally pointless right?


i don't think so. i've already suggested one initiative to the staff for discussion which might help with diagreements over infractions going forward.

but i do think there are some people posting in this thread who are doing a great job of making sure that sincere comments are lost in the noise...

alasdair


----------



## etnies

alasdairm said:


> ^ sure. have a stellar day.
> 
> alasdair



That's it? Very mature of you. Instead of addressing my post you just brush it off.


----------



## swilow

Zephyr, you are just letting your evident (and rather inexplicable) dislike of me colour your input here. 

Honestly, I have you on ignore because you've been harassing me for months. Remember how we had a disagreement about paedophiles about 12 months ago? That's when you started this ongoing attack. I'm happy to find it and post it as well as the numerous times where you've called me a cunt or mean or whatever.


----------



## alasdairm

etnies said:


> Pathetic.


appreciate the feedback.

alasdair


----------



## SheWasLvL18

I have to agree with Droppers about Jgrimez driving the discussion because I do check in way too often just to see what he has to say.  That being said I think the problem is the way he presents his ideas or lack of presenting his ideas.  Most of the time it seems like he just dumps headlines without giving any further context, though it's also on me for not giving his posts more respect so if he comes back I'd hope to give him a more honest ear.  

I do think Bluelight will always be political because harm reduction is inherently political and I think the bias is obvious, though not a bad thing as long as people with opposing viewpoints feel free to talk, which I understand is not the case anymore.  I don't know how to fix that, but I don't think making threads that seem to be about 1 user and bashing the people who give their time to run the site is the way to do it. For my part I will try to listen to opposing viewpoints better and assume that everyone is arguing in good faith.


----------



## Droppersneck

Thanks to all of the people willing to stand up and voice your opinion. We?re gonna shut it down before it devolves into anything we can?t come back from and reopen when some other voices can wiegh in.


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## zephyr

^ I dont have the option of putting swillow on ignore but the scroll function works just fine.  But thanks for responding in any way here, where are your co mods?  They should respond here.


Toothpaste dog and CFC, it is absolutely impossible to talk to these people without frustration and anger.

Its not worth it for me,  I hate bullies and will not stand for it and thats that 

Id love to show in public this cduggles infraction and the one from ali.

Add that to the others copped and displayed by others off the board as its showing the nasty pattern and abuse of the system to target us away. 

Cep is the nastiest place on bl,  theres no point in talking anymore about it.

Take it as a compliment anyone bothered to address it -  life is too short for lost causes.


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## swilow

SheWasLvL18 said:


> I have to agree with Droppers about Jgrimez driving the discussion because I do check in way too often just to see what he has to say.  That being said I think the problem is the way he presents his ideas or lack of presenting his ideas.  Most of the time it seems like he just dumps headlines without giving any further context, though it's also on me for not giving his posts more respect so if he comes back I'd hope to give him a more honest ear.
> 
> I do think Bluelight will always be political because harm reduction is inherently political and I think the bias is obvious, though not a bad thing as long as people with opposing viewpoints feel free to talk, which I understand is not the case anymore.  I don't know how to fix that, but I don't think making threads that seem to be about 1 user and bashing the people who give their time to run the site is the way to do it. For my part I will try to listen to opposing viewpoints better and assume that everyone is arguing in good faith.



Nice post. Thanks for your input 

I'm keen for these sort of perspectives tbh.


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## zephyr

^ Right. Just choose the perspective that suit you.  Ive called you a cunt when you are being one. So ?  Post whatever you want. Also post up your infractions you dole out and what you say in staff to show the big picture of your fine self.

I wish I never saw how you act there.


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## swilow

^Can't win with you. Whatever.


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## alasdairm

closed on request of op.

alasdair


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## alasdairm

an update.

jgrimez' temporary ban expired today. he sent me an insulting pm but i chose to not formally discipline him as, in light of this discussion, that might be seen as retaliatory and heavy-handed. his pm ended with this charming demand:



			
				JGrimez said:
			
		

> Sort out your fucking mods.



to which i responded:



			
				alasdairm said:
			
		

> seriously? i just switch off when somebody swears at me and orders me around.
> 
> you generally make solid points and you argue your position well but if you can't find a way to be civil, you're just going to get banned again and nobody's going to care.
> 
> if you see examples of anything you consider unfair moderation, report it and i'll take a look.
> 
> alasdair



in the meantime, he sent swilow an abusive pm for which he received an infraction. so he's temp banned again.

we're not reopening this. this isn't about political oppression. it's about people who seem incapable of civil discussion abusing volunteer staff, then turning around and playing the victim.

nobody's being targetted or oppressed. some of you are just being vitriolic dicks. you're fed up? well a lot of staff are fed up too.

honestly, you had a chance to engage and change some minds and you just completely blew it.

so, for now, we're done.

alasdair


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