# Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works



## phr

The church will be closed tomorrow, and the drunks are freaking out. An elderly lady in a prim white blouse has just delivered the bad news, with deep apologies: A major blizzard is scheduled to wallop Manhattan tonight, and up to a foot of snow will cover the ground by dawn. The church, located on the Upper West Side, can’t ask its staff to risk a dangerous commute. Unfortunately, that means it must cancel the Alcoholics Anonymous meeting held daily in the basement.

A worried murmur ripples through the room. “Wha… what are we supposed to do?” asks a woman in her mid-twenties with smudged black eyeliner. She’s in rough shape, having emerged from a multiday alcohol-and-cocaine bender that morning. “The snow, it’s going to close everything,” she says, her cigarette-addled voice tinged with panic. “Everything!” She’s on the verge of tears.

A mustachioed man in skintight jeans stands and reads off the number for a hotline that provides up-to-the-minute meeting schedules. He assures his fellow alcoholics that some groups will still convene tomorrow despite the weather. Anyone who needs an AA fix will be able to get one, though it may require an icy trek across the city.

That won’t be a problem for a thickset man in a baggy beige sweat suit. “Doesn’t matter how much snow we get—a foot, 10 feet piled up in front of the door,” he says. “I will leave my apartment tomorrow and go find a meeting.”

He clasps his hands together and draws them to his heart: “You understand me? I need this.” Daily meetings, the man says, are all that prevent him from winding up dead in the gutter, shoes gone because he sold them for booze or crack. And he hasn’t had a drink in more than a decade.

The resolve is striking, though not entirely surprising. AA has been inspiring this sort of ardent devotion for 75 years. It was in June 1935, amid the gloom of the Great Depression, that a failed stockbroker and reformed lush named Bill Wilson founded the organization after meeting God in a hospital room. He codified his method in the 12 steps, the rules at the heart of AA. Entirely lacking in medical training, Wilson created the steps by cribbing ideas from religion and philosophy, then massaging them into a pithy list with a structure inspired by the Bible.

The 200-word instruction set has since become the cornerstone of addiction treatment in this country, where an estimated 23 million people grapple with severe alcohol or drug abuse—more than twice the number of Americans afflicted with cancer. Some 1.2 million people belong to one of AA’s 55,000 meeting groups in the US, while countless others embark on the steps at one of the nation’s 11,000 professional treatment centers. Anyone who seeks help in curbing a drug or alcohol problem is bound to encounter Wilson’s system on the road to recovery.

It’s all quite an achievement for a onetime broken-down drunk. And Wilson’s success is even more impressive when you consider that AA and its steps have become ubiquitous despite the fact that no one is quite sure how—or, for that matter, how well—they work. The organization is notoriously difficult to study, thanks to its insistence on anonymity and its fluid membership. And AA’s method, which requires “surrender” to a vaguely defined “higher power,” involves the kind of spiritual revelations that neuroscientists have only begun to explore.

What we do know, however, is that despite all we’ve learned over the past few decades about psychology, neurology, and human behavior, contemporary medicine has yet to devise anything that works markedly better. “In my 20 years of treating addicts, I’ve never seen anything else that comes close to the 12 steps,” says Drew Pinsky, the addiction-medicine specialist who hosts VH1’s Celebrity Rehab. “In my world, if someone says they don’t want to do the 12 steps, I know they aren’t going to get better.”

Wilson may have operated on intuition, but somehow he managed to tap into mechanisms that counter the complex psychological and neurological processes through which addiction wreaks havoc. And while AA’s ability to accomplish this remarkable feat is not yet understood, modern research into behavior dynamics and neuroscience is beginning to provide some tantalizing clues.

One thing is certain, though: AA doesn’t work for everybody. In fact, it doesn’t work for the vast majority of people who try it. And understanding more about who it does help, and why, is likely our best shot at finally developing a system that improves on Wilson’s amateur scheme for living without the bottle.

AA originated on the worst night of Bill Wilson’s life. It was December 14, 1934, and Wilson was drying out at Towns Hospital, a ritzy Manhattan detox center. He’d been there three times before, but he’d always returned to drinking soon after he was released. The 39-year-old had spent his entire adult life chasing the ecstasy he had felt upon tasting his first cocktail some 17 years earlier. That quest destroyed his career, landed him deeply in debt, and convinced doctors that he was destined for institutionalization.

Wilson had been quite a mess when he checked in the day before, so the attending physician, William Silkworth, subjected him to a detox regimen known as the Belladonna Cure—hourly infusions of a hallucinogenic drug made from a poisonous plant. The drug was coursing through Wilson’s system when he received a visit from an old drinking buddy, Ebby Thacher, who had recently found religion and given up alcohol. Thacher pleaded with Wilson to do likewise. “Realize you are licked, admit it, and get willing to turn your life over to God,” Thacher counseled his desperate friend. Wilson, a confirmed agnostic, gagged at the thought of asking a supernatural being for help.

But later, as he writhed in his hospital bed, still heavily under the influence of belladonna, Wilson decided to give God a try. “If there is a God, let Him show Himself!” he cried out. “I am ready to do anything. Anything!”

What happened next is an essential piece of AA lore: A white light filled Wilson’s hospital room, and God revealed himself to the shattered stockbroker. “It seemed to me, in the mind’s eye, that I was on a mountain and that a wind not of air but of spirit was blowing,” he later said. “And then it burst upon me that I was a free man.” Wilson would never drink again.

At that time, the conventional wisdom was that alcoholics simply lacked moral fortitude. The best science could offer was detoxification with an array of purgatives, followed by earnest pleas for the drinker to think of his loved ones. When this approach failed, alcoholics were often consigned to bleak state hospitals. But having come back from the edge himself, Wilson refused to believe his fellow inebriates were hopeless. He resolved to save them by teaching them to surrender to God, exactly as Thacher had taught him.

Following Thacher’s lead, Wilson joined the Oxford Group, a Christian movement that was in vogue among wealthy mainstream Protestants. Headed by a an ex-YMCA missionary named Frank Buchman, who stirred controversy with his lavish lifestyle and attempts to convert Adolf Hitler, the Oxford Group combined religion with pop psychology, stressing that all people can achieve happiness through moral improvement. To help reach this goal, the organization’s members were encouraged to meet in private homes so they could study devotional literature together and share their inmost thoughts.

In May 1935, while on an extended business trip to Akron, Ohio, Wilson began attending Oxford Group meetings at the home of a local industrialist. It was through the group that he met a surgeon and closet alcoholic named Robert Smith. For weeks, Wilson urged the oft-soused doctor to admit that only God could eliminate his compulsion to drink. Finally, on June 10, 1935, Smith (known to millions today as Dr. Bob) gave in. The date of Dr. Bob’s surrender became the official founding date of Alcoholics Anonymous.

In its earliest days, AA existed within the confines of the Oxford Group, offering special meetings for members who wished to end their dependence on alcohol. But Wilson and his followers quickly broke away, in large part because Wilson dreamed of creating a truly mass movement, not one confined to the elites Buchman targeted. To spread his message of salvation, Wilson started writing what would become AA’s sacred text: Alcoholics Anonymous, now better known as the Big Book.

The core of AA is found in chapter five, entitled “How It Works.” It is here that Wilson lists the 12 steps, which he first scrawled out in pencil in 1939. Wilson settled on the number 12 because there were 12 apostles.

In writing the steps, Wilson drew on the Oxford Group’s precepts and borrowed heavily from William James’ classic The Varieties of Religious Experience, which Wilson read shortly after his belladonna-fueled revelation at Towns Hospital. He was deeply affected by an observation that James made regarding alcoholism: that the only cure for the affliction is “religiomania.” The steps were thus designed to induce an intense commitment, because Wilson wanted his system to be every bit as habit-forming as booze.

The first steps famously ask members to admit their powerlessness over alcohol and to appeal to a higher power for help. Members are then required to enumerate their faults, share them with their meeting group, apologize to those they’ve wronged, and engage in regular prayer or meditation. Finally, the last step makes AA a lifelong duty: “Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.” This requirement guarantees not only that current members will find new recruits but that they can never truly “graduate” from the program.

Aside from the steps, AA has one other cardinal rule: anonymity. Wilson was adamant that the anonymous component of AA be taken seriously, not because of the social stigma associated with alcoholism, but rather to protect the nascent organization from ridicule. He explained the logic in a letter to a friend:

[In the past], alcoholics who talked too much on public platforms were likely to become inflated and get drunk again. Our principle of anonymity, so far as the general public is concerned, partly corrects this difficulty by preventing any individual receiving a lot of newspaper or magazine publicity, then collapsing and discrediting AA.

AA boomed in the early 1940s, aided by a glowing Saturday Evening Post profile and the public admission by a Cleveland Indians catcher, Rollie Hemsley, that joining the organization had done wonders for his game. Wilson and the founding members were not quite prepared for the sudden success. “You had really crazy things going on,” says William L. White, author of Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction Treatment and Recovery in America. “Some AA groups were preparing to run AA hospitals, and there was this whole question of whether they should have paid AA missionaries. You even had some reports of AA groups drinking beers at their meetings.”

The growing pains spurred Wilson to write AA’s governing principles, known as the 12 traditions. At a time when fraternal orders and churches with strict hierarchies dominated American social life, Wilson opted for something revolutionary: deliberate organizational chaos. He permitted each group to set its own rules, as long as they didn’t conflict with the traditions or the steps. Charging a fee was forbidden, as was the use of the AA brand to endorse anything that might generate revenue. “If you look at this on paper, it seems like it could never work,” White says. “It’s basically anarchy.” But this loose structure actually helped AA flourish. Not only could anyone start an AA group at any time, but they could tailor each meeting to suit regional or local tastes. And by condemning itself to poverty, AA maintained a posture of moral legitimacy.

Despite the decision to forbid members from receiving pay for AA-related activity, it had no problem letting professional institutions integrate the 12 steps into their treatment programs. AA did not object when Hazelden, a Minnesota facility founded in 1947 as “a sanatorium for curable alcoholics of the professional class,” made the steps the foundation of its treatment model. Nor did AA try to stop the proliferation of steps-centered addiction groups from adopting the Anonymous name: Narcotics Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous. No money ever changed hands—the steps essentially served as open source code that anyone was free to build upon, adding whatever features they wished. (Food Addicts Anonymous, for example, requires its members to weigh their meals.)

By the early 1950s, as AA membership reached 100,000, Wilson began to step back from his invention. Deeply depressed and an incorrigible chain smoker, he would go on to experiment with LSD before dying from emphysema in 1971. By that point, AA had become ingrained in American culture; even people who’d never touched a drop of liquor could name at least a few of the steps.

“For nearly 30 years, I have been saying Alcoholics Anonymous is the most effective self-help group in the world,” advice columnist Ann Landers wrote in 1986. “The good accomplished by this fellowship is inestimable … God bless AA.”

There’s no doubt that when AA works, it can be transformative. But what aspect of the program deserves most of the credit? Is it the act of surrendering to a higher power? The making of amends to people a drinker has wronged? The simple admission that you have a problem? Stunningly, even the most highly regarded AA experts have no idea. “These are questions we’ve been trying to answer for, golly, 30 or 40 years now,” says Lee Ann Kaskutas, senior scientist at the Alcohol Research Group in Emeryville, California. “We can’t find anything that completely holds water.”

The problem is so vexing, in fact, that addiction professionals have largely accepted that AA itself will always be an enigma. But research in other fields—primarily behavior change and neurology—offers some insight into what exactly is happening in those church basements.

To begin with, there is evidence that a big part of AA’s effectiveness may have nothing to do with the actual steps. It may derive from something more fundamental: the power of the group. Psychologists have long known that one of the best ways to change human behavior is to gather people with similar problems into groups, rather than treat them individually. The first to note this phenomenon was Joseph Pratt, a Boston physician who started organizing weekly meetings of tubercular patients in 1905. These groups were intended to teach members better health habits, but Pratt quickly realized they were also effective at lifting emotional spirits, by giving patients the chance to share their tales of hardship. (“In a common disease, they have a bond,” he would later observe.) More than 70 years later, after a review of nearly 200 articles on group therapy, a pair of Stanford University researchers pinpointed why the approach works so well: “Members find the group to be a compelling emotional experience; they develop close bonds with the other members and are deeply influenced by their acceptance and feedback.”

Researchers continue to be surprised by just how powerful this effect is. For example, a study published last year in the journal Behavior Therapy concluded that group therapy is highly effective in treating post-traumatic stress disorder: 88.3 percent of the study’s subjects who underwent group therapy no longer exhibited PTSD symptoms after completing their sessions, versus just 31.3 percent of those who received minimal one-on-one interaction.

The importance of this is reflected by the fact that the more deeply AA members commit to the group, rather than just the program, the better they fare. According to J. Scott Tonigan, a research professor at the University of New Mexico’s Center on Alcoholism, Substance Abuse, and Addictions, numerous studies show that AA members who become involved in activities like sponsorship—becoming a mentor to someone just starting out—are more likely to stay sober than those who simply attend meetings.

Addiction-medicine specialists often raise the concern that AA meetings aren’t led by professionals. But there is evidence that this may actually help foster a sense of intimacy between members, since the fundamental AA relationship is between fellow alcoholics rather than between alcoholics and the therapist. These close social bonds allow members to slowly learn how to connect to others without the lubricating effects of alcohol. In a study published last year in Alcoholism Treatment Quarterly, Tonigan found that “participation in AA is associated with an increased sense of security, comfort, and mutuality in close relationships.”

And close relationships, it turns out, have an even more profound effect on us than previously thought. A 2007 study of a Boston-area community, for example, found that a person’s odds of becoming obese increase by 71 percent if they have a same-sex friend who is also obese. (Wired covered the study in more detail in “The Buddy System,” issue 17.10.) And in April, a paper published in Annals of Internal Medicine concluded that a person is 50 percent more likely to be a heavy drinker if a friend or relative is a boozehound. Even if an alcoholic’s nonsober friends are outwardly supportive, simply being around people for whom drinking remains the norm can nudge someone into relapse. It is much safer to become immersed in AA’s culture, where activities such as studying the Big Book supplant hanging out with old acquaintances who tipple.

As for the steps themselves, there is evidence that the act of public confession—enshrined in the fifth step—plays an especially crucial role in the recovery process. When AA members stand up and share their emotionally searing tales of lost weekends, ruined relationships, and other liquor-fueled low points, they develop new levels of self-awareness. And that process may help reinvigorate the prefrontal cortex, a part of the brain that is gravely weakened by alcohol abuse.

To understand the prefrontal cortex’s role in both addiction and recovery, you first need to understand how alcohol affects the brain. Booze works its magic in an area called the mesolimbic pathway—the reward system. When we experience something pleasurable, like a fine meal or good sex, this pathway squirts out dopamine, a neurotransmitter that creates a feeling of bliss. This is how we learn to pursue behaviors that benefit us, our families, and our species.

When alcohol hits the mesolimbic pathway, it triggers the rapid release of dopamine, thereby creating a pleasurable high. For most people, that buzz simply isn’t momentous enough to become the focal point of their lives. Or if it is, they are able to control their desire to chase it with reckless abandon. But others aren’t so fortunate: Whether by virtue of genes that make them unusually sensitive to dopamine’s effects, or circumstances that lead them to seek chemical solace, they cannot resist the siren call of booze.

Once an alcoholic starts drinking heavily, the mesolimbic pathway responds by cutting down its production of dopamine. Alcohol also messes with the balance between two other neurotransmitters: GABA and glutamate. Alcohol spurs the release of more GABA, which inhibits neural activity, and clamps down on glutamate, which stimulates the brain. Combined with a shortage of dopamine, this makes the reward system increasingly lethargic, so it becomes harder and harder to rouse into action. That’s why long-term boozers must knock back seven or eight whiskeys just to feel “normal.” And why little else in life brings hardcore alcoholics pleasure of any kind.

As dependence grows, alcoholics also lose the ability to properly regulate their behavior. This regulation is the responsibility of the prefrontal cortex, which is charged with keeping the rest of the brain apprised of the consequences of harmful actions. But mind-altering substances slowly rob the cortex of so-called synaptic plasticity, which makes it harder for neurons to communicate with one another. When this happens, alcoholics become less likely to stop drinking, since their prefrontal cortex cannot effectively warn of the dangers of bad habits.

This is why even though some people may be fully cognizant of the problems that result from drinking, they don’t do anything to avoid them. “They’ll say, ‘Oh, my family is falling apart, I’ve been arrested twice,’” says Peter Kalivas, a neuroscientist at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston. “They can list all of these negative consequences, but they can’t take that information and manhandle their habits.”

The loss of synaptic plasticity is thought to be a major reason why more than 90 percent of recovering alcoholics relapse at some point. The newly sober are constantly bombarded with sensory cues that their brain associates with their pleasurable habit. Because the synapses in their prefrontal cortex are still damaged, they have a tough time resisting the urges created by these triggers. Any small reminder of their former life—the scent of stale beer, the clink of toasting glasses—is enough to knock them off the wagon.

AA, it seems, helps neutralize the power of these sensory cues by whipping the prefrontal cortex back into shape. Publicly revealing one’s deepest flaws and hearing others do likewise forces a person to confront the terrible consequences of their alcoholism—something that is very difficult to do all alone. This, in turn, prods the impaired prefrontal cortex into resuming its regulatory mission. “The brain is designed to respond to experiences,” says Steven Grant, chief of the clinical neuroscience branch of the National Institute on Drug Abuse. “I have no doubt that these therapeutic processes change the brain.” And the more that critical part of the brain is compelled to operate as designed, the more it springs back to its pre-addiction state. While it’s on the mend, AA functions as a temporary replacement—a prefrontal cortex made up of a cast of fellow drunks in a church basement, rather than neurons and synapses.

Finally, the 12 steps address another major risk factor for relapse: stress. Recovering alcoholics are often burdened by memories of the nasty things they did while wasted. When they bump into old acquaintances they mistreated, the guilt can become overwhelming. The resulting stress causes their brains to secrete a hormone that releases corticotropin, which has been shown to cause relapse in alcohol-dependent lab rats.

AA addresses this risk with the eighth and ninth steps, which require alcoholics to make amends to people they’ve wronged. This can alleviate feelings of guilt and in turn limit the stress that may undermine a person’s fragile sobriety.

Bill W., as Wilson is known today, didn’t know the first thing about corticotropin-releasing hormone or the prefrontal cortex, of course. His only aim was to harness spirituality in the hopes of giving fellow alcoholics the strength to overcome their disease. But in developing a system to lead drunks to God, he accidentally created something that deeply affects the brain—a system that has now lasted for three-quarters of a century and shows no signs of disappearing.

But how effective is AA? That seemingly simple question has proven maddeningly hard to answer. Ask an addiction researcher a straightforward question about AA’s success rate and you’ll invariably get a distressingly vague answer. Despite thousands of studies conducted over the decades, no one has yet satisfactorily explained why some succeed in AA while others don’t, or even what percentage of alcoholics who try the steps will eventually become sober as a result.

A big part of the problem, of course, is AA’s strict anonymity policy, which makes it difficult for researchers to track members over months and years. It is also challenging to collect data from chronic substance abusers, a population that’s prone to lying. But researchers are most stymied by the fact that AA’s efficacy cannot be tested in a randomized experiment, the scientific gold standard.

“If you try to randomly assign people to AA, you have a problem, because AA is free and is available all over the place,” says Alcohol Research Group’s Kaskutas. “Plus, some people will just hate it, and you can’t force them to keep going.” In other words, given the organization’s open-door membership policy, it would be nearly impossible for researchers to prevent people in a control group from sneaking off to an AA meeting and thereby tainting the data. On the other hand, many subjects would inevitably loathe AA and drop out of the study altogether.

Another research quandary is how to account for the selection effect. AA is known for doing a better job of retaining drinkers who’ve hit rock bottom than those who still have a ways to fall. But having totally destroyed their lives, the most desperate alcoholics may already be committed to sobriety before ever setting foot inside a church basement. If so, it might be their personal commitment, rather than AA, that is ultimately responsible for their ability to quit.

As a result of these complications, AA research tends to come to wildly divergent conclusions, often depending on an investigator’s biases. The group’s “cure rate” has been estimated at anywhere from 75 percent to 5 percent, extremes that seem far-fetched. Even the most widely cited (and carefully conducted) studies are often marred by obvious flaws. A 1999 meta-analysis of 21 existing studies, for example, concluded that AA members actually fared worse than drinkers who received no treatment at all. The authors acknowledged, however, that many of the subjects were coerced into attending AA by court order. Such forced attendees have little shot at benefiting from any sort of therapy—it’s widely agreed that a sincere desire to stop drinking is a mandatory prerequisite for getting sober.

Yet a growing body of evidence suggests that while AA is certainly no miracle cure, people who become deeply involved in the program usually do well over the long haul. In a 2006 study, for example, two Stanford psychiatrists chronicled the fates of 628 alcoholics they managed to track over a 16-year period. They concluded that subjects who attended AA meetings frequently were more likely to be sober than those who merely dabbled in the organization. The University of New Mexico’s Tonigan says the relationship between first-year attendance and long-term sobriety is small but valid: In the language of statistics, the correlation is around 0.3, which is right on the borderline between weak and modest (0 meaning no relationship, and 1.0 being a perfect one-to-one relationship).

“I’ve been involved in a couple of meta-analyses of AA, which collapse the findings across many studies,” Tonigan says. “They generally all come to the same conclusion, which is that AA is beneficial for many but not all individuals, and that the benefit is modest but significant … I think that is, scientifically speaking, a very valid statement.”

That statement is also supported by the results of a landmark study that examined how the steps perform when taught in clinical settings as opposed to church basements. Between 1989 and 1997, a multisite study called Project Match randomly assigned more than 1,700 alcoholics to one of three popular therapies used at professional treatment centers. The first was called 12-step facilitation, in which a licensed therapist guides patients through Bill Wilson’s method. The second was cognitive behavioral therapy, which trains alcoholics to identify the situations that spur them to drink, so they can avoid tempting circumstances. And the last was motivational enhancement therapy, a one-on-one interviewing process designed to sharpen a person’s reasons for getting sober.

Project Match ultimately concluded that all three of these therapies were more or less equally effective at reducing alcohol intake among subjects. But 12-step facilitation clearly beat the competition in two important respects: It was more effective for alcoholics without other psychiatric problems, and it did a better job of inspiring total abstinence as opposed to a mere reduction in drinking. The steps, in other words, actually worked slightly better than therapies of more recent vintage, which were devised by medical professionals rather than an alcoholic stockbroker.

AA is still far from ideal. The sad fact remains that the program’s failures vastly outnumber its success stories. According to Tonigan, upwards of 70 percent of people who pass through AA will never make it to their one-year anniversary, and relapse is common even among regular attendees. This raises an important question: Are there ways to improve Wilson’s aging system?

AA is obviously not about to overhaul its 75-year-old formula. But there are a few alterations that would almost certainly make the program work for more people, starting with better quality control. Since no central body regulates the day-to-day operations of local groups, some meetings are dominated by ornery old-timers who delight in belittling newcomers. Others are prowled by men looking to introduce nubile newcomers to the “13th step”—AA slang for sexual exploitation. Finding a way to impose some basic oversight of such bad behavior would likely reduce the dropout rate.

Some AA groups would also do well to shed their resistance to medication. There is nothing in the Big Book that forbids the use of prescription drugs, but there are plenty of meetings where such pharmaceutical aids are frowned upon. Perhaps this sentiment made sense back in AA’s formative years, when a variety of snake oils were touted as alcoholism cures. But today there are several medications that have been proven to decrease the odds of relapse. One such drug, acamprosate, restores a healthy balance between glutamate and GABA, two of the neurotransmitters that get out of whack in the brains of alcoholics. Naltrexone, commonly used to treat heroin addiction, appears effective at preventing relapse by alcoholics who possess a certain genetic variant related to an important mu-opioid receptor. Both can be valuable aids in the recovery process.

But the best way to bolster AA’s success rate may be to increase the personalization of addiction medicine. “We’re starting to get an inkling that something about the initial state of the brain prior to therapy may be predictive as to whether that therapy will be a success,” says Grant of the National Institute on Drug Abuse. In other words, certain brains may be primed to respond well to some therapies and less so to others.

NIDA and other government agencies are currently funding several studies that aim to use neural imaging technology to observe how various therapies affect addicted brains. One alcoholic might have a mesolimbic pathway that normalizes quickly after receiving a certain type of therapy, for example, while another will still suffer from dopamine disregulation despite receiving the same care. The hope is that these studies will reveal whether neurobiology can be used to predict a person’s odds of benefitting from one treatment over another. Perhaps there is one sort of mind that is cut out for the cognitive behavioral approach and another that can be helped only by the 12 steps.

A person’s openness to the concept of spiritual rebirth, as determined by their neural makeup, could indicate whether they’ll embrace the steps. Last September, researchers from the National Institutes of Health found that people who claimed to enjoy “an intimate relationship with God” possess bigger-than-average right middle temporal cortices. And a Swedish study from 2003 suggests that people with fewer serotonin receptors may be more open to spiritual experiences.

For the moment, though, there is no way to predict who will be transformed by AA. And often, the people who become Wilson’s most passionate disciples are those you’d least expect. “I always thought I was too smart for AA,” a bespectacled, Nordic-looking man named Gary shared at a meeting in Hell’s Kitchen this past winter. “I’m a classical musician, a math and statistics geek. I was the biggest agnostic you ever met. But I just wrecked my life with alcohol and drugs and codependent relationships.”

And now, after more than four years in the program? “I know God exists,” he says. “I’m so happy I found AA.”

Maybe one day we’ll discover that there’s a quirk in Gary’s genetic makeup that made his prefrontal cortex particularly susceptible to the 12 steps. But all that really matters now is that he’s sober.

Link!


*Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works*
*Brendan I. Koerner
Wired
6.23.10*


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## raver2008

Pretty interesting article. A few ppl I know are trying to get me to attend meetings with them because they work so great for them, but I dont know if I even belive in god so I cant see it helping me any. Are most group meetings all basically the same in which some sort of god or whatever is what there based around?


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## Khadijah

I didnt make it all the way thru the whole article becuz I just aint beat for hearing the story of how it started, etc, all over again but I will force myself to. I got to the part of Bill W in the hotel and having a trip-vision of god n all that and skimmed thru the rest.

They dont know how AA works becuz it aint "AA" thats working, its the people who brainwash themselfs with the philosophies of it. And Dr Drew can suck a fucking dick, Oh, "If a person dont want to to the 12 steps they dont want to get better" FUCK YOU, You ignorant piece of pig shit. How insulting can you be to the idea of personal responsibility?

I despise the idea that you cant stay clean without NA. That you "need" meetings to keep you clean, TWENTY FUCKIN YEARS after you stopped using. That you got so little strenth of your own that every single moment of your day is still a risk filled situation that could send you flying back into the pit of addiction.

You become a slave to meetings. Replacing your addiction to drugs/alcohol with addiction to the program. People eat live and sleep the program, the amount they are obsessed with it is straight up scary to me honestly. They are like programmed robots brainwashed to all think the same shit, to believe all this shit, and its the only way that they can stay clean ,is to believe it.

If it keeps em clean, good for them. If it works for them I am happy for them and it must not be such a bad thing for THEM. But shit, all I see after the hundreds of meetings that Ive wasted my nights at, is a bunch of people whose lives are still about drugs, every second of them. Except now, they about NOT using drugs instead of using them. 

You cant just be a person who got off drugs. You cant just be you. You got to be you, ADDICT. You got to be a addict who is ALWAYS at risk, FOR-EVARRRR. That after 30 years without gettin high, you are still at as much risk as u were the day you quit, of relapsing. That its like this monster hidden around every corner, that you are WEAK and you CANT fight it without the program, that you CANT do it alone, that you aint CAPABLE of stayin clean, unless you do this that and the third. You GOT to do this, you GOT to get a sponsor, you GOT to go to 90 meetings in 90 days, you GOT to work the steps, all this garbage. 

Well how bout this, i been clean 9 months and I aint been to a meeting in like 5 months. I actually never even went to collect my 6 months keychain, OR my 9 months one, becuz I got so sick of the meetings that I seriously just couldnt do it no more. Just sittin there listening to these people delude themselfs over and over, repeating this same cult-like shit time after time just got to be too much for me.

I aint denying that for some people it has helped them alot. but as a person who is a independent thinker who likes to do shit myself, think shit thru myself, there is just so many gaping holes in their philosophies, so much contradiction, so much shit thats just ass-backwards, that its totally useless to me. I really cant do it. That group-think shit, the mindless agreeing, man its just scary to me. its really like a cult IMO. 

Is that really the life you want to life, yea , off drugs, but terrified? Scared that every day, any day, you could just fall off and start using and end up dead? That your addiction is a living thing thats like, scheming and plotting ways to win you back? That you should drive 50 minutes out of your way to work every morning , so you dont pass a bar? That you are SO FUCKING WEAK that even driving past a street corner that you copped dope at ONCE can totally throw you off balance and send you right back to the needle like a choice-less zombie? That you NEED to go to a meeting every day, becuz THATS wats keeping you clean--not your own will, not your strentgh, not your heart as your desire to stay clean gets stronger, not your wisdom and your intelligence that helps guide you, not you, but "the program"? That you will always forever be an addict, so even 60 years after you quit you still need to go to meetings and work the steps? That you will never, ever change, never be stronger, never be "cured" or "recovered", that recovery is forever and you are just doomed to always be that way til the day you die?

I aint down with the powerlessness. I aint powerless. If i was powerless, I would not have been able to quit using when i realized that i really, truly, absolutely HAD TO or i was goin straight to state prison. if i was powerless, I never could have used around my probation schedule, gettin high on the day of my piss test and the day after ,and leavin 5 days in between to clean up so i could piss clean for my PO visit a week later. If i was powerless, I woulda just started binging out like crazy every time i got a couple bundles and not stopped using til it was gone, nevermind probation. if i was powerless, I never coulda copped those 3 bundles and just left them sittin there,  hidden in my closet, for 4 days while i laid there sick as a dog, hurtin, miserable, depressed, wantin to die while I kicked, and not even touched them, not even considered touching them until after i passed my piss test. 

If I was powerless, I woulda needed NA to get clean like I been. If i was powerless, i never coulda turned my life around like I did. I aint powerless, I took back my power that I had gave up, lost a hold on, and forgot that I had while i was usin. I got a choice, and when i was buried in the suffering of my addiction I couldnt exercise that choice, i coudlnt hold on tight enough to make a solid choice and stick to it, but I got it back eventually. I didnt go to rehab. I didnt go to NA. I didnt do jack-shit, except get on my Methadone, and start some long, hard thinking. 

Soon enough, i lost that obsession with heroin. it took months, but it happened. It stopped bein this idea, buried in my heart , living inside of me, this passionate, destructive, insane love, wanting, craving, and just gradually turned into another idea just like anything else. It went from bein that crazy lover who you have ups and downs with, the person where its so intense that one minute you want to kill each other and the next you are furiously fucking, who you would kill for, and also want to kill. And became that boring guy/girl down the street that you really dont know much or feel nothing for, just a bland aquaintance. 

Heroins grip dropped off my heart & my mind, it let go and became just another thing. Not the obssessive lust for the drug of the addict but the take it or leave it attitude of the casual recreational drug user who has fun once in a while and then gets back to 'normal' life the majority of the time. that insane, doomed love affair with dope turned into something totally lame and boring, like it was just a kind of uninteresting co-worker instead of a secret crush that burns so hot and bright inside of you that you drive yourself crazy thinking of them. 

And once that crazy obsession ended, I was able to do dope , pick it up, and get a little high. Have some fun, and then forget about it for another couple months. Without none of the "oh shit, its gone? i got to get more, just one more shot, just get high for one more day" shit. Without nothing really, no feelings of disappointment when it was over and i had to go back to the daily methadone grind. It was a fun thing, and when it was done it was done. and thats all there was to it. I wasnt fantasizing, thinking about when I will be able to have it again, just living for that day when I get to boot another shot. It wasnt even really in the back of my mind.

I was too busy livin my life, a normal life, not a ex drug addict life. I dont WANT to identify myself as a fuckin ADDICT, i want to be ME. If i aint using the drug no more, if my life stopped being about this drug then why should I still make every fuckin moment be about avoiding it, which is the entire focus of the NA/AA programs? Is it really true that every single person who was ever addicted, will never, EVER be able to have a normal life again? That they are doomed to a life of NA picnics, NA barbecues ,NA sports games, NA meetings, NA community projects, NA this and fuckin that all day forever. That NA is the only "safe zone" that you can trust. That NA is the only one for you. NA will take care of you, NA will keep you safe and happy. You need NA. You cant live without NA. Trust NA and put your faith in NA and you will be ok.  

It sounds alot to me like a drug addict if you replace NA with Heroin or Alcohol, etc. 

If that life is wat being clean is about,.....Fuck bein clean.

But it aint GOT to be like that, becuz you aint gotta listen to their bullshit-ass lies and insane mind-warping philisophies.

But of course , according to them, that only means that you "dont really want to/aint really ready to get clean." 8( 

I could go on forever and ever about this and I know i already been goin off for a while now, so Ima wrap it up but seriously,  it aint no suprise to me that they say they aint got no idea how or even if the program works, becuz there aint nothing to it except a persons willingness to delude themself and listen to wat they are told, and their ability to totally devote their life to that. If you can do that, the program will most definately keep you clean and off drugs, but i would much rather do it in a way that actually leaves me with a life that got more to it than being obsessed with the program and not using. How are you really recovered, really free, if you cant even live nothing like a normal life and it all gotta be about not using? if every move you make gotta still be about that, then you really aint recovered at all, you just hiding from the real world and that aint no way to live, its the life of the addict just without the drugs. That aint no way to be.


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## xoqqiy axlotao3al

i believe that for some people, especially those using hard-core physically addictive drugs (coke, meth, H, alcohol) that AA/NA may be the only way for them to maintain sobriety for any length of time. 

I do believe it works for those people better than other programs, statisitcally speaking.

But its one-size-fits-all approach is both maddening and, in the end, intellectually confusing. I sit in a room and say "i am exactly the same as you." But I have never touched H, meth, coke or even alcohol; am i the same?

What I found frustrating around this community was 

(a) people whose actual dependence is unclear, but who glom onto the community because it's a place to belong [there are people in my local NA whose period of drug use appears to have been, e.g., six months of pot smoking when they were 20, and are still in AA in their 50s--I wish I were kidding, but I'm not]; 

(b) the ultimate view that everything bad in one's life is a direct result of addiction, so that meetings can sometimes go almost like this: "My boss yelled at me today. And being a typical addict, I felt bad." And everyone nods, as if a non-addict (whatever that is supposed to be) would *not* have felt bad. Nope: it's normal to feel bad. Your addiction may OR may not have something to do with it. 

(c) the inability to find any coherent way to distinguish between kinds of addictions and kinds of substances; they AREN'T all the same, and if they were, we would not need all the different kinds. We repeat several times in the meetings that drugs only end in "jails, institutions, and death." Yet (as I even braved to say in a few meetings)--can anyone point me at even a LOT of pothead/psychdelic users who have ended up that way? In my experience, there are a whole lot of potheads out there who will never end up in any one of those ways. In fact it's HARD to end up that way unless you live in a very anti-pot state and get caught by LEO. 

(d) the concomitant failure to honestly address what drugs do for us. why did I finally stop going to meetings? I am an artist and writer. Every meeting would end with people going to the parking lot, smoking cigarettes (which I don't do, having quit decades ago--again, no way of dealing with that within NA context), and listening to music by the likes of Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones, Aphex Twin, Radiohead, Grateful Dead, Beatles, and frankly every fucking band you can think of who openly used drugs while they were making music and would insist that the two things are connected. They are. Human beings need creativity. Creativity and mind alteration are connected. We can't just pretend that mind alteration doesn't exist.

I feel bad, because I wish NA and AA were more what they say they are.  But I worry. The closer I actually got to those people, not only did I feel pressure to cut off vital friendships and activities because they interfered with NA "outings"; I also started to hear rumors of drug deals, lying group members, and false recoveries, enough of which made me really wonder about the claims to success the group has.

I also do not believe they remain un-infiltrated by LEO. There are quite a few people in my local community whose presence, jobs, lives make no sense, unless they have some other means of support that keeps them in NA (for, here again, very light histories of drug use). 

I will carp one more time: Bill W's use of LSD, given my own exclusive use of psychedelics and avoidance of alcohol, really warped my mind. Why was I there again? 

Oh, I'll add one more complaint: some NA people are really hardcore anti-psychiatric drugs, but when they encourage members to stop taking them because "all drugs are bad" (drinks from coffee cup, takes drag on cigarette) I really start to worry--you are entitled to your views, but not to interfere with another person's medical care.


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## LSDMDMA&AMP

one of hte first posts by lacey i agree with. not from personal experience though, i aint never been to an aa meeting.


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## xoqqiy axlotao3al

raver2008 said:


> Pretty interesting article. A few ppl I know are trying to get me to attend meetings with them because they work so great for them, but I dont know if I even belive in god so I cant see it helping me any. Are most group meetings all basically the same in which some sort of god or whatever is what there based around?



this, honestly, is one thing not to worry about. many people in NA/AA are not religious. for most of them/us, the "higher power" we think of is something like "the other people in this room"--something bigger and outside of ourselves, but not up in the sky. I live in a pretty liberal town, but at least here, if anybody starts talking about Jesus, they are welcome to do so, but the next person will usually say, "let's remember this is a spiritual and not a religious program that is open to everyone." If you think it might help you, it's worth checking out.


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## phr

The thing that gets to me is that it is sometimes court mandated. Yet they don't know why it (sometimes) works or exactly how successful it is.

I'm not even going to get into the finer details, since lacey already did a good job at that.


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## Khadijah

xoqqiy axlotao3al said:


> i believe that for some people, especially those using hard-core physically addictive drugs (coke, meth, H, alcohol) that AA/NA may be the only way for them to maintain sobriety for any length of time.
> 
> I do believe it works for those people better than other programs, statisitcally speaking.
> 
> But its one-size-fits-all approach is both maddening and, in the end, intellectually confusing. I sit in a room and say "i am exactly the same as you." But I have never touched H, meth, coke or even alcohol; am i the same?
> 
> What I found frustrating around this community was
> 
> (a) people whose actual dependence is unclear, but who glom onto the community because it's a place to belong [there are people in my local NA whose period of drug use appears to have been, e.g., six months of pot smoking when they were 20, and are still in AA in their 50s--I wish I were kidding, but I'm not];
> 
> (b) the ultimate view that everything bad in one's life is a direct result of addiction, so that meetings can sometimes go almost like this: "My boss yelled at me today. And being a typical addict, I felt bad." And everyone nods, as if a non-addict (whatever that is supposed to be) would *not* have felt bad. Nope: it's normal to feel bad. Your addiction may OR may not have something to do with it.
> 
> (c) the inability to find any coherent way to distinguish between kinds of addictions and kinds of substances; they AREN'T all the same, and if they were, we would not need all the different kinds.
> 
> (d) the concomitant failure to honestly address what drugs do for us. why did I finally stop? I am an artist and writer. Every meeting would end with people going to the parking lot, smoking cigarettes (which I don't do, having quit decades ago--again, no way of dealing with that within NA context), and listening to music by the likes of Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones, Aphex Twin, Radiohead, Grateful Dead, Beatles, and frankly every fucking band you can think of who openly used drugs while they were making music and would insist that the two things are connected. They are. Human beings need creativity. Creativity and mind alteration are connected. We can't just pretend that mind alteration doesn't exist.
> 
> I feel bad, because I wish NA and AA were more what they say they are.  But I worry. The closer I actually got to those people, not only did I feel pressure to cut off vital friendships and activities because they interfered with NA "outings"; I also started to hear rumors of drug deals, lying group members, and false recoveries, enough of which made me really wonder about the claims to success the group has.
> 
> I also do not believe they remain un-infiltrated by LEO. There are quite a few people in my local community whose presence, jobs, lives make no sense, unless they have some other means of support that keeps them in NA (for, here again, very light histories of drug use).
> 
> I will carp one more time: Bill W's use of LSD, given my own exclusive use of psychedelics and avoidance of alcohol, really warped my mind. Why was I there again?
> 
> Oh, I'll add one more complaint: some NA people are really hardcore anti-psychiatric drugs, but when they encourage members to stop taking them because "all drugs are bad" (drinks from coffee cup, takes drag on cigarette) I really start to worry--you are entitled to your views, but not to interfere with another person's medical care.



Hell yea, I agree 100% with you.

I dont really agree tho, that it may be the only way for a "hardcore" user to get clean. I was shooting up 25-30 bags of heroin everyday, Im 23 now and had started using when i was 16, you know? Many many people been usin for way longer and had way worse habits. But im just sayin, it was a significant amount of time to be using heroin for. And i got clean without nothin but Methadone and my determination, for once.

Dont get me wrong, i am SO against that whole "if a junkie CAN stop on their own, they WOULD. So , obviously, since they dont, it means they CANT stop, and they NEED NA or Rehab." Thats a load of shit. And i cant stand the ignorant ppl who say "Well, why dont you just stop?" And all that.

i aint one of them willpower people who is all about "just doing it." But I do believe that once you hit the right circumstances in the right combination at the right time, once you get that "click" in your head that you reallllly understand wat you gotta do, its much easier to do it. for me, it was bein 5 minutes away from a jail cell. I was at my probation office after my 2nd dirty piss test in like 3 months, and they were a minute from haulin my ass down into the county. I  had 2 felony cases open that i was on concurrent probation for, and i copped out on both of them. If i violated probation, both of my cases woulda got reopened in the court , and i woulda had to go to trial facing at the very very least a 3 year state prison sentence and the possibility of much more years than that, since i had distribution charges, conspiracy charges, and multiple possession charges for heroin , paraphenelia, and marijuana.

Anyways, at that point i realized, damn. Im either gonna be in jail not using, or out here not using. I got to do this . I aint beat for prison. it aint worth it, it really aint. I can just take a break. a few months, let shit settle down, and then get high again if i want to but i just need to stop for a little bit.

and i went to the methadone clinic and upped my dose til i felt normal and here i am, you know? If i had just been able to stop when i "should" have stopped, i woulda been off the shit years ago. But, it toook enough time for me to really realize that time was up, it was seriously, REALLY game over this time. Shit, I got arrested 3 times in 7 months, I was balls to the wall. And when i stopped, it wasnt even "rock bottom" for me. It was just the situation that I finally, TRULY understood that I really did have to quit - for a while, at least . 

But this aitn about me, so ima move on i just wanted to explain and make it clear that I aint the type of person who believes or thinks that its just all about a addict being lazy and too weak to quit. But i also dont believe in the disease model that says you are totally irrespnsible for your actions and that the addict aint got no control wat so ever, becuz i totally disagree with that shit too.

Anyways, one thing that always just APPALLED me about NA was how anti-ALL-Drugs they are. 

Seriusly, there was this girl in there. She had some kind of horrible stomach problem that she had to get surgery for. They had to cut her open and cut some shit out of her and put some shit in her and god knows wat else, and she was talkin about this at a meeting one night...

She goes "Im scared becuz they want to give me painkillers for the surgery. I told them that I dont want them and that Ill just go thru the surgery without no pain meds or anasthesia, becuz Im a drug addict."

And Im thinking, this broad, is soooo brainwashed by this crap that she honestly believes that if a DOCTOR administers a painkiller to her during SURGERY, that it will cause her to relapse? That she is SO powerless, got No control, to the point that its TOTALLY out of her hands whether or not this happens to  her? That its just gonna happen, inevitable?

And her explanation for bein so concerned about all this, was "You cant give drugs to an addict. you just CANT do it . Im an addict, and he CANT give me DRUGS!"

And instead of sayin to this girl "Hey, you know, i think its OK for you to let them give you painkillers while they cut you open in surgery. Its kind of medically necessary, so dont be afraid" They were all like "Yea girl, I know! Youre right! Well you just tell that doctor that you wont take drugs!" and so on 8(

Seriously, they encourage her to risk her health, possibly go into shock from the pain, and suffer extreme agony, and refuse the MEDICALLY NECESSARY TREATMENT, becuz shes a "addict" and you "cant give her drugs"? Its fuckin insane!!

There is people in there who been in horrible accidents, smashed up their backs, got fused vertebrae an shit like that, and they go in there talkin about how their doctor wants them on pain meds but they wont take them becuz they used to be addicted to COCAINE 20 years ago, and they dont want to relapse. So , they walk with a fuckin cane, or a walker, and live in excruciating pain all day every day, and take so much Advil that it is destroying their liver, and they brag about how they are "clean", and THATS a better life than taking PRESCRIBED drugs under MEDICAL SUPERVISION, to treat your very real, legitimate condition that REQUIRES those medications? I mean it aint like they got a broken arm and can tough it out. They would rather SIGNIFICANTLY lower their quality of life, live in pain and suffering all the time, have a , well, SHITTY life, oh but they are CLEAN though, so its all worth it? Becuz, you know, if you are so damn powerless that yuo cant trust yourself to take the pills as prescribed, its better to live in agony, than to let a trusted friend, husband, wife, etc, keep the pills in a safe place for you and only give them to you as prescribed, so that you aint got to worry about trusting yourself? 

It aint "using" if a doctor prescribes you a painkiller for a medical problem that you didnt fake, that is legitimate and real and needs help. It aint "using" if you got terrible anxiety, so a psych. dr gives you low dose klonopin to take when you get panic attacks. It aint fuckin "USING" if you take a drug to treat a real medical problem. It aint gonna make you start suckin dick on the street for a bag of dope becuz you get surgery and they give you a morphine shot ONCE.

Its like they support these totally irrational, ridiculous, paranoid delusions of all these horrible , terrible things that TOTALLY WILL HAPPEN if you just let ONE tiny molecule of ANY drug get into your body, for ANY reason at all. Instead of sayin "Hey, you know, we are all reasonable people here---Dont beat yourself up over this--You have multiple sclerosis. Its okay to take the goddamn Vicodin when you really start to hurt" they say "yea! Go you! Fight those addiction demons! dont give up, you got to stay strong, and not let your guard down! That doctor whose BEGGING you to just take the fuckin prescription becuz your body is in so much pain that its making you weaker and weaker---hes just the voice of your addiction talking. thats just your bad  side tryina convince you that its OK to use "just once"! but it AINT! You gotta fight the enemy! Keep up the good work and throw away that pill bottle, even though your kids are watching you waste away physically and cry every night becuz they can see how much you are hurting--But remember, RECOVERY IS YOUR  NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, More than ANYTHING else, so just keep up the good fight!"

Its seriously fucking TWISTED to me. Like that shit is on the verge of psychotic the way that they encourage this totally insane thinking and convince people to deny themself from things that they legitimately need.

its one thing if you got a mild injury that you can live with the pain and you choose not to go on pain management becuz you think you might end up needing the pills more than you actually do. Thats a legit concern "Hey, im a ex oxycontin addict, and this pain really aint that bad, its just more of a ache. A lot of people experience this pain, and this aint really severe chronic pain, some doctors might not even think i need any meds at all for it, so even though this one is givin me a script for Percocet, I think I should probably just try to do without it." Thats a responsible choice, even tho I might not do the same thing since I believe everybody got a right to pain relief, and shouldnt deny themself just becuz of past sins, but I mean, NA applies that same thinking of "Just take some tylenol!" to people with SERIOUS, CHRONIC conditions that should be on MASSIVE doses of painkillers. 

i cant stand to see people suffer like that, for no good fuckin reason. NA breeds so much fear into people that its like they afraid to make any move except one thats approved by NA. They dont want to choose on their own, they got to do wat the "program" dictates they should do in that situation, you know? its really, seriously just sick. 

I cant even comprehend the idea that a reasonable person could possibly believe that a 80 year old grandfather who used to be addicted to heroin in his 30's, should deny himself pain meds for his arthritis and hip replacement becuz "once an addict, always an addict" and he still cant take the risk of "relapsing", becuz the tiniest little taste of any drug will set off his "fuck it" switch and he will instantly turn into a fienning junkie all over again. its just insane, ridiculous, and goddamn cruel to teach people this shit and make them believe it.


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## Pans-Advocate

There is an appalling lack of mention in this article of the Saskatchewan studies done by Humphrey Osmond and Abram Hoffer in conjunction with Bill Wilson, in which they successfully treated alcoholism using a combination of AA tactics and single high doses of LSD (200-1200mcg) ... with a 50% success rate, better than any other treatment we've ever used.


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## infiltratah

After attending AA daily (twice on Sundays) for 6 & 1/2 months I would like to think I know everything there is to know about AA - but I don't. AA/NA literature and the people you meet are bitter-sweet. You can take what you want from the meetings & literature.. don't rule out the rest, you may need it later. As far as the "higher power" thing goes.. that's an idea that is difficult for some to grasp (including myself). I am agnostic. I truly do not believe in the God the major religions of modern day society push. Still AA/NA is a good place to socialize when you are trying to change your life. It gives people a safe place to socialize without the fear or temptation of drugs and alcohol. Granted I have been to an AA meeting that was literally on D block. Finding the right meetings is important - as they are ALL different in many ways. I personally do not think I will be returning to an AA/NA group any time soon. The route I'm taking these days is Suboxone treatment (in my case a very gradual detox). 

Good luck to anyone who is trying to recover from the harsh life of addiction. The sooner you start - the faster things will get better.

"As far as you walk into the woods, you have to walk just as far to get out."

Peace.


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## rant*N*rave

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that AA works because it provides a stable group of people that the person in recovery can feel connected to and trust without any fear of judgment, combined with a rigorously structured environment.  That shit works to fix just about any human problem.  Or alternatively, it works in the same way organized religion does - by forcing you to live in fear and subjugation.


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## AndroidsDreamofBTC

Interesting article. While I agree with some aspects of Lacey's criticisms, I don't see what's the big deal about some people using AA meeting as a social club kind of thing as long as they are supportive and understanding towards the people with more pressing issues. I also can't believe that every single AA group (or even a majority of the groups) would recommend someone to not use painkillers during surgery. I can see people being anal about regular oxy scripts and stuff, but you have to pretty stupid to not take painkiller for surgery. That's just ridiculous. 

I would also argue that Lacey K's attitude towards "self-responsibility" is too simplistic and slightly arrogant. Lacey himself agreed that it is possible that he will be doing H again once "the coast is clear". So even though he is facing significant risks of ending up in jail and possibly permanently reduced career prospects, he seems to be already planning the next hit. I think it's reasonable to assume that many people don't want to lose everything and hit rock bottom before they realize that they need to quit. If AA is what it takes to keep them from getting to that point, then so be it! 

Don't get me wrong, I am not particularly fond of AA and I think we could do with better methods for helping people deal with their addictions, but I am definitely not buying any of this faux "self-responsibility BS." What fucking self-responsibility are you talking about if you where doing 25-30 bags a day? I think the AA's approach to addiction is the least of your worries if you've been using for almost 7 years. If you want talk about self responsibility, you'd let people get what they need from AA (if it helps them in the first place) and let them make up their own minds about their attitudes towards addiction. 

On a side note, does anyone have a link to that Swedish article on seratonin receptors.


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## fryingsquirrel

LOL Maybe I should eat some jimpson weed and start a new religion. Not to say AA/NA meetings aren't useful, if you're in a new town and don't know any connections they're a great place to meet dealers.


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## seep

Besides the part about Advil destroying someone's liver, I agree with everything Lacey says.   12-step programs are part of the machinery of government-sponsored repression (just as religions are). The whole anonymity thing is an anachronism: one is encouraged to flout their participation in 12-step by the courts, the mental health industry, etc.


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## The Smoking Man

phrozen said:


> Wilson had been quite a mess when he checked in the day before, so the attending physician, William Silkworth, subjected him to a detox regimen known as the Belladonna Cure—hourly infusions of a hallucinogenic drug made from a poisonous plant.


Apparently we need to just use psychedelics in psychotherapy.


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## sixpartseven

Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between quitting with Methadone (or Suboxone) and quitting without. NA is designed to help people stay sober without those drugs, so comparing a person's success with Methadone to NA's success is not possible. Obviously NA will fail more often since it isn't a drug and is not stimulating receptors to prevent symptoms of withdrawal - cravings, most importantly - that NA members will experience if they fully conform to NA's standards.

When someone said "I can see how NA may be the only choice for hardcore addicts," I am sure he meant "for hardcore addicts not on Methadone/Suboxone." Obviously, having either of those will be a huge help in getting clean, an advantage NA does not have.

Also, if you're using at all, even occasionally - or quitting for a while with the intention of using down the road - then you're not clean or sober. Yes, it does take will power to get from daily use to once/twice a week use, and it's a hell of a challenge to take a break for a period of time, but from there, it's still quite a hike to total sobriety and saying that the two are anything alike is a serious misrepresentation of what sobriety means. Saying you managed to get to occasional use is not a valid argument against NA/AA since the goal with them is total, long-lasting sobriety. It's much easier to cut back than it is to quit altogether, so NA/AA does deserve some credit for at least being able to help people do that. Whether it's possible to get to that point without the program is insignificant; the fact is, not everyone will be able to do it without the program - and on the same token, not everyone will be able to do it with the program - so the fact that it's there is a god-send for those who run out of options and absolutely need it.

Now, all that being said, I'll let it be known that I hate NA and will strongly discourage participation in the program for as long as I live, or at least until they refine and clean up the program. Not because I don't think it works - it certainly does for some - but because it's dangerous and has the ability to limit/ruin someone's life as bad as any drug could. If an addict came to me for help, NA would be the _very last_ option I would present to them. It is so obviously a cult, but oddly, a cult that doesn't really believe anything, other than "the program is essential to recovery." It's odd because, as this article points out, no one knows why the program helps, or if it truly helps enough people to be worth the effort. From my experience, NA around Detroit is basically where jaded drug users go to rip on newcomers, brag about the size of their drug penis, and tell "war stories" to see who can come up with the most outrageous story involving drug use, most of which are probably embellished or totally fraudulent. Not a word of advice is ever offered except for the occasional "you better get off that Suboxone." 

All in all, NA is a dangerous concept to fool around with, and in actuality, is just a replacement addiction. They are so against Suboxone and Methadone because all it does is switch addictions, but fail to recognize that NA does the _exact same thing_. If you truly want to get off and stay clean - and this is where I agree with Lacey - it's going to take a lot of work done on your own. NA tries to take that away from you, which I find funny since there is no comprehensible motive behind it. There is no money to be made off keeping you coming and there is no logical reason to believe that you are destined to relapse without attending meetings till the day you die. It makes no sense.

So yeah, give NA some credit because it does help some - how many is a huge unknown - but don't believe the hype they try to sell about themselves. Try other options before resorting to NA, and if you do go that route, don't feel like you have to totally conform. Pick and choose what works and leave out the parts that have nothing to do with recovery (life-long participation, finding God, out-of-the-way routes to work to avoid bars, dumping all your old friends - although friends you used with can be trouble - and all the shit like that).

EDIT - Those interested in a logical route to recovery, find books on Rational Recovery and attend their meetings. The books are hilarious when they get in to tearing NA apart, but also offer some real sound advice on getting clean. They are against the "disease" model as well, pushing the (what I believe to be) fact that addiction stems from behavior and remains an issue with behavior. Check it out if you haven't already.


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## The Straight Dope

I've been to NA once, and only once, and let me tell you that it is a load of bullshit. I guess the only purpose it serves is to make addicts not feel alone and have a place to go and hang out so they're not sitting at home bored and alone because they've got nothing in their lives other than drugs.

I'm not one of those people, even during being addicted I've maintained a somewhat lively social life, and I generally had the funds to still make it out to social functions and beer keg parties and not miss them due to withdrawls.

I think if there's a logical program to go to, it is SMART recovery. SMART recovery actually branched out of Rational Recovery since Rational Recovery stopped having meetings. I think it can definitely help to still be in a group setting while going through this, and not be fed bullshit. Oh yeah and smart recovery you actually get to graduate from and not have to go there anymore, and they definitely don't have religious undertones or tell you that you're an addict forever. SMART recovery actually uses psychiatric science and stuff like cognitive behavior therapy. Unfortunately I never had a chance to go, and sadly the number of SMART recovery groups pale in comparison to AA/NA groups. I'm currently clean and w/d free myself, but perhaps someday I might give smart a shot so I can keep it that way.

Look it up on the net.


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## paranoid android

People wanted me to go to AA when i was a real bad drunk back about 7 or 8 years ago. Needless to say i never went but if i had i doubt i would have lasted the whole meting. It reminds me of a fucking cult the way people at these meetings swallow everything thats given to them. Also i think the whole "i have no power over such and such a drug" is totally counter productive. That is admitting defeat right there pretty much.

 I ended up quitting on my own and except for a few slipups and a major one there a few months back ive been mostly sober. I choose not to drink so i guess im not that powerless over the shit afterall. Either that or the fact that the mess i know i will end up in if i go back to everyday drinking is scary enough to keep me off the stuff.


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## Khadijah

Seep , LOL I apologize--I know that ibuprofen aint the shit that will kill your liver, its Tylenol (acetapminophen)  , so excuse me for that mis saying there 

Anyways, I really disagree that a person who uses once in a blue moon aint "clean."

Why not?

Clean is a lifestyle, its the practice of living without the obsession of the drug. I honestly believe that people who never touch a drug but yet spend every day in meetings, freaking out about how they will relapse, about how any moment it can happen, how its just around the corner, livin like scared ADDICTS, aint clean. So, maybe that sounds crazy to you,  but I dont think that you can say you are clean if you live in the same mental patterns of fear and obsession that addiction has.

To me clean is a mentality and a state of mind, and if you are a healthy person, mentally healthy, emotionally healthy, and you are broke free of those  bonds then how aint that clean?

Let me ask you--

Is a person who never been addicted to any drugs at all, but occasionally, maybe 3 times a year, uses Oxycontin, "clean"? 

To me, clean or not applies to addicts. You never hear somebody ask someone who aint a addict but uses drugs if they are "clean."

Its a state of mind, the person who lives without that addiction brain-power workin over time. 

If im off dope but i smoke weed, am i not "clean"? Of course I am. Clean means off dope. It means off the drug that made my life a living hell. It dont mean that I dont take no other drugs at all. If im on methadone, Hell yea i am fucking clean. If i aint thinking like a addict, aint living like a addict , aint stuck in those thought patterns and loops, aint miserably depressed and lost, and I take methadone, I am sure as shit clean. 


Anyways, I think that some people misunderstood my post.

First of all, leviticus, I am a female.

Second, I was describing the mentality that I used to stop using. Which coincidentally is EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE NA MODEL-- "Just for today." I told myself, Hey. we gotta get clean now. But it aint gotta be forever. Just for a while. To make it bearable for myself, to make it more easy to comprehend, easier to take in at once. To take it a step at a time. Thats exactly how they tell u to do it in NA, so there aint nothing wrong with that. If you get clean by telling yourself "tomorrow you can use" but you never use "tomorrow", then you still clean if you ask me. I eventually DID end up gettin high, but it was never a SLIP, never a MISTAKE, never a RELAPSE. It was a choice that I considered carefully for weeks beforehand, planning, thinkin of it from every angle to eliminate any risks i could think of, considering if it was a good idea, if i thought there was any bad effects that i might be risking, etc, and I waited til i had it totally thought out planned out and decided before I even started to think, OK, well, I might do this now. 

I actually didnt use for , 5, 6 months at all and was totally clean for that long, until I dipped in again. And i think that is absolutely just as good as not using at all ever for 9 months straight. so I used 4 times maybe, I didnt count. over the course of these last 9, almost 10 months now. I really think thats totally great and I give myself just as much credit as if i had not used at all, becuz i didnt go back into that addict life or mentality. I feel now like i did before I ever used drugs, and so I really feel like that mentality is the end goal of getting clean. Not some kind of tally on paper of how many times you used, or how many days, and the more days you got the better and cleaner you are. Na, its about getting back to being the kind of person you used to be , before drugs took over your life.

I sure as hell never started counting from the beginning after I used any of those handful of times. I wasnt AT day one no more--I DIDNT go back--I didnt fall back into addiction, I used the drug, had my fun, and then went right back on my 'program' of methadone the next day, happily with no regrests and no real desire to do it again very soon. I considered it putting my "clean" days on PAUSE, not stopping and rewinding back to the beginning. 

Just for the record, I totally stopped using a month or so ago, with no intent to use again no time soon, for a good reason. I got another life to look out for now, and I aint using no fucking drugs now that thats the case. But honestly I dont see the difference between a person who has been off all drugs for 20 years and a person who uses once every 5 years . It aint no different. 

The point is that you CAN recover from addiction, that the addict will still fall back into a using pattern,  but a person who been able to fight thru it CAN use the drug without falling back. The addict who decides to use and then ends up on a month long binge, is gonna go back to day 1 and start counting from there again. The person who dont have that problem aint got no reason that they should or would go back to day one--they AINT where they started at, they got lots of ground behind them, they didnt "relapse" back into their old ways.

I know that my views on this , alot of ppl dont agree with. But I really feel that when you measure someone "clean" or not, its more important to consider how they are living , their mental health, and the way their mind works, than whether or not the drug goes in their body once in a while. If they are using every day  but say , Oh, but i dont need the drug! Obviously that is a different situation. But i am talking about a person who may say hey lets have a little fun , why not, and dip in every few months, but is still totally seperated from that life they used to live, who has mentally progressed way past the old ways of thinking, who dont have  harmful obsessive needs for the drug, etc. 


You ask me, I would much rather be "clean" and living happy, healthy, without the need for drugs, without the constant fears of relapse, without identifying myself as "ADDICT!!!" without thinking i am always at risk, without my whole fuckin LIFE being about NOT DOING DRUGS (thats still about drugs. whether its doing or not doing--your life is still ALL ABOUT DRUGS) and get high every 2-3 months, than be some poor kid in the NA program, going to meetings every day, proud of how I aint used in thislong, but every waking moment is, "My friend from my old job wants to chill and see how Im doing. He smokes weed! Shit, NO! I cant go, i might relapse on HEROIN from watching my friend SMOKE WEED! He aint a REAL FRIEND!" And, I cant do this, i cant go here, Oh, I cant have anything around me be the color orange beucz it reminds me of the safety caps on needles. I cant this, I cant that. I need the meetings. i cant do it on my own. I could relapse at any moment, and ONLY NA can keep me clean!

I think thats a fucking shitty way to live ,and if thats how they think you should get 'clean' then i aint got no interest in being their definition of clean, and would rather do it my way,  be happy, have a safe life, and not spend every waking moment OBSESSING ABOUT DRUGS, whether its using or not  using em.

Also,  leviticus, I should explain to you. I was on probation on once weekly visits. after 5 or 6 months, I got  bumped down to once every 2 weeks. I still felt like that was not enough 'safe time' to use. If i was still a addict minded user, I woulda jumped at the very first chance I had to get high, but I didnt. becuz i didnt HAVE to get high. It was a nice thing that I wanted to do,  butI wouldnt do it if it was making any type of risk.

The only times I allowed myself to get high was the day after my piss test, once I got bumped down to once every 3 weeks visit. When my PO would be out of the office for 4-5 days, plus a weekend, so there was no way that even on some fluke type of thing that I could get called in randomly. I waited a very long time to indulge, and it was fun but it made me realize that its really only fun when you aint using it all the time. 

I refused to cop on the street, and got it from a friend who did all the dirty work , and met up with me in a totally safe n secure location. I never got high in public, and waited til i got home safe and sound to do my shot. I didnt travel with needles, etc.

sure, theres always a risk, but the point is, does that sound like the behavior of the addict. I refused to use at all until i was in a situation where I could be secure in knowing that I wouldnt have to see my PO  no time soon, and that the way i got the product was safe too. When i Was on dope, I would cop that shit on the corner in the hood, in a hot-ass area of dope blocks with TNT and surveillance and all kind of cops up in that bitch, and then start making up my shot and shooting up the secon I pulled onto the highway. it was so foolish. and that was even AFTER my 3rd arrest. I was reckless, i didnt care, i just did it.

The pattern of how i used the shit totally changed the couple of times that I did used after getting clean 9 mos ago. Also, i didnt really seek it out--If i had money, and my friend happened to call and ask, and the timing was right, i would do it. I didnt go out of my way, i never scrambled to make it happen, trying to scrape up money or force the situation. I knew I didnt need it, and it was a fun thing to do if the timing was right and it all worked out, and if not, no big deal. That definatly aint the attitude of the addict. When i was addicted i would do anything to make it work. Shit, I would call my dealer when i didnt have NO money and tell him i needed to see him, to make sure he was around. Then i would start scheming, cashing in change, returning shit to the store, all kind of shit. Waiting on people who owed me money, and counting that money towards my total, when that didnt work i would just keep coming up with shit, franticly trying to force it to work out, until i got enough dough for a few bundles. And then my man would say, na, its hot out here right now. you cant come thru. And i would wait, and bleep him again a half hour later and he would say na it still aint no good. And i would call someone else, see if we can go to their guy, but that guy will only sell bricks, so i would see fi i could travel 20 miles out of the way to go see another addict friend who could get shit, that costed more per bag,  but it was at least a definite, and go there instead, and then my man would call back and say the coast is clear and I would turn around and head  back to go see him, and so on. All these events that was just signs telling me, hey, just give it up. it just aint working out today. I wouldnt care and would just keep pushing it, trying to force the hand of fate to make it work out the way I wanted it to, and many times that ended up gettin me in trouble.

Obviously you dont care my whole story of my addiction here,  but im just pointing out the totally different behavior and mindset of the times I was using durin my addiction, and the way i went about it once i got clean and dipped in every so often. its 2 very different situations. 

I aint trying to go rambling on in here, but I just wanted to explain better some of the shit behind the things i am sayin here and give yall a better understanding of why i say the shit i do, so I hope that makes it clearer for anybody who wasnt 100% on my posts.  Thanks for reading.


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## paranoid android

I agree with you lacey on the fact that many people in NA are so obessed with the possibility of relapse and the fear that goes along with it that they are really no better off then the junkie who has to worry all the time about having enough opiates so he/she doesent get dopesick. It's the same fucking mentality because your still constantly thinking about drugs. It doesent really make that much of a difference in that sense wheather you are using or in NA because the result is basically the same. Constant fear of the drug and the constant worry that goes along with it.

 I mean what kind of a life is always worrying about if someone smoking weed in your presence is going to make you relapse on heroin, crack or whatever? Fuck id rather be dead.


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## aanallein

I've probably been to about 30-40 AA meetings in my life as a family member of alcoholics/addicts. It's alright and it helps people. If it doesn't work for you or you don't want to participate that's all good but I don't see why there is hate. Addiction isn't always simply about the substance but about problems with the individual that need to be overcome. The way in which we deal with our problems differs from person to person. I know that AA worked for my mother and her fiance both. They rarely attend meetings now but they aren't in danger of relapsing. My dad, however, became sober through AA, quit going, relapsed, and destroyed himself on drugs/alcohol. He is now dead. If he had continued going, things may be different. He was an entirely different person for those years he was sober and going to meetings once in awhile (probly just a few meetings a year). He was productive, charismatic, a great father and friend.. now that is all gone.


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## sixpartseven

Lacey, the term "clean" in the context of drug users is derived from the way drug test results are described. You're "clean" if your test comes back negative, meaning no drugs in you. "Clean" most definitely means not using drugs at all.

Anyway, if that's the only argument, then it's one of semantics. I could have just as easily said "sober" or "dry" or "abstinint" and had it mean the same thing. I've heard many people refer to themselves as clean without having been addicted to something. Addiction is not a prerequisite for having drugs ruin/affect your life, so for someone that stops using completely despite never being addicted, they are most definitely "clean."

I think you're trying to twist the definition to justify something personal with your own use. I'm not trying to take anything away from your accomplishments - I'm very happy for you, in fact - but I refuse to accept that you are "clean" if you've only reduced your use rather than cut it out of your life completely. I don't see how anyone could honestly say to themselves that they are "clean" if they are still using at any rate.

Someone who uses but maintains a normal lifestyle is not clean, either. They are "functional/responsible drug users." "Clean" and "functional" are not the same thing. I've seen closet heroin addicts that are able to maintain a job, marriage, raise kids, and so on. Addicts. Are you telling me they are "clean" because they are living a normal life? Being able to use between probation piss tests in most certainly not being "clean" - it's being a smart or clever drug user, whichever you prefer. No offense, but I wouldn't label that as being "responsible" though. Being responsible would be following the guidelines set by your probation, which means being "clean" and not using at all.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of NA by any means. I think it's horrible, but the truth of the matter is, it works for some people, and dismissing it completely because Methadone and Suboxone are available isn't smart. Not everyone wants to go that route, so for them, NA should be an option.

My point still stands that it's much easier to get "clean" - no matter how you define the word - with Methadone or Suboxone than it is without, so for those that choose not to use those, NA could be beneficial. Even still, it won't work for everyone, but there are some people out there that NA certainly does work for.


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## jspun

I really enjoyed Lacey's posts and a shit load of other stuff I've seen her post through the years. Like her I am a long term heroin addict, now in recovery. I tied heroin in 90' first. I developed a hibit for the first time in 94'. Through the years I have been strung out on speedballs, shards+stuff+valium+halcion, stuff and crack. Then as my life was becoming insane and those I was associated with were getting involved in some prety serious federal crimes, I got clean using NA (moved from San Diego to San Francisco) for 3.5 years. I discovered it because my family talked me into going to detox and then a 2 week program. I relapsed and went back 2 speedballs- wasn't ready. But I liked meetings, in the San Ferando Valley/ Hollywood, there were alot of young people and hot girls. More significantly, the people I met weren't the scandolous variety for the most part I was used to. I went 2 meetings for 2 years and would nod off in the corner- by then I was down to just smoking it. I was very honest with people- it wasn't worth hidding and people told me to keep comming back. Then there were the people that said YOU NEED TO GO TO REHAB RIGHT NOW. Those people I learned how to politely tell how to fuck off. 

I relapsed on alcohol- prety much planned. I was involved with the youth scene of AA ( because it had the hottest girls)- so I was in it for the wrong reason. Long story short. Drugs are my life, I've been reading about them since I was 11 and have had a morbid unusal facination that I've had since. I also have a neurochemical imbalance- I need something to restore brain chemistry. Now I quit drinking and doing stuff. When I relapsed I was on MMT for 6 years with all its bullshit, ect and finally got off that in feb 0f 08' and quit drinking. I relapsed on coca leaves and ultimately shards after 3 months. Then I got clean from all chemicals (except well butrin). Now I'm on suboxone and xanax- and I consider myself clean (aint drinking, have medical necissity).

So this is my 2 cents.

Everyone who has ever had a problem with drugs is not necessarily an addict/ alcoholic- I'm and addict/ alcoholic but only I can speak for myself. The big problem we run into is THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU NEED AA OR HAVE BEEN HELPED BY THE 12 STEPS DOESN'T MEAN THE REST OF THE WORLD NEEDS IT. NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE FORCED TO ATTEND- IT RUNS COUNTRARY TO THE OFFICIAL LITERATURE AND SOME OF THE OLD SCHOOL MEETINGS WONT SIGN COURT CARDS WE DONT WANT PEOPLE WHO DONT WANT TO BE THERE. BUT WE DONT TURN AWAY ANYBODY WHO DOES WANT TO BE THERE NO MATTER WHAT.

I think most of the people have been misdiagnosed. What the program needs is not the average brainwashed person but opened minded people that can change with the times and suit the program to new advances in medicine and society.

The program in a nutshell. You find a higher power (not necessarily God), look at your resentments- the people, places, institutions that piss you off, and the deep shit that scares you. After that you look at your defects- in my case I'm dishonest, self centered fear, scared God wont take care of me, too prideful, ect.. Then the hardest, you make a list of all people or institutions you have harmed and with your sponsors help you make ammends, this is character building. With that done, you try to act ritcheously on a daily bases as opposed to being scadolous like those fuckwads on wallstreet and in the home loans industry that have gotten rich off peoples misery. Then you pray and look for God's guidance in meditation, there are a million of ways to do this, this is up to the individual. Finally, last but not least, the way people stay clean and most importantly happy is by helping other addicts.

One can argue you can help others and not act scandolous without the program, thats valid. I have a sponsor, take suboxone and xanax (although I'm taking a break from meetings, sponsors, because i'm too busy working. I think I would be happier with the program. Despite these drugs, I consider myself clean and AA is a program that just emphasizes abstinence from alcohol. NA is comming up with new guidlines I heard that if your on habit formind drugs like methadone, adderal, xanax, suboxone, and are taking them as perscribed, or on narcotics for pain in conjuction with the Rx of a pain specialist, you are still clean. This is a spiritual program, when desperation makes us do scandolous things thats when we relapse. Thats why drus need to be legalized. People place too much emphasis on time. Its the guilt of a relapse and not the relapse that usually fuck people up because people put too much tendency on time and make it a case were they worship those with most time- I'm working against that and not all old timers are like that. As they say, we all have today.

I too am against the rigid cult-like tendencies. Best cure, when people tell you that you have to do something one way or if you don't you'll relapse tell them fuck you. Again- nobody can tell you that you are an addict that needs the twelve steps, this disease is unique in that self diagnosis is not only appropriate, its essential. Studies have shown that a percentage do go back to drinking or using in a controlled fashion.

I love drugs, they are my life, I love all aspects of them, sociocultural, history, pharmacology, ect, ect... Can't wait until they find the drug that lets people use and take away the drug craving.

What has fucked up the program more than anything is the recovery/industrial complex- the alliance between law enforcement, courts, jais, and formal treatment centers and their lobyists that keep drugs criminalized and give those caught two options: jail and whatever treatment your po makes you do or being sentences to treatment centers were they break you done and brain wash you. These approaches are futile, an addict, that is a real addict won't quit until they are ready. Unitl then HARM REDUCTION needs to be available. As the swiss have found, for instance, when you make all the heroin a dopefiend wants available, they will taper their dose and then stop. My theory is your sick, waiting for the connect, there lagging, you worry, when they show up your sick as a dog. The connect becomes associated with relief. Being hella dope sick and then getting right makes you more addicted than if you get your morning dose and are mildly sick at most. This makes the cycle harder to break.

Gone on way to long. 12 steps, done right work for real addicts, but there are way too many people using it to boast their own small egos and exercise power over people. And there is a huge industry that catters to rehabibg addicts and throwing them in jail thats preventing more progressive laws and approaches other than 12 step like moderation studies. Sorry for the long post.


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## danalprazolam

Yo J SPUN. Word up on that post. That was just perfect. The best part is when you emphasize desperation makes us do crazy things. That's why maintance can help people so much. They dont have to deal with all the bull shit, for the most part. I cant really add anything, you said it perfectly.


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## jspun

"Good Meetings"

1.)Focus on AA literature. There is usually no medical advice. In the early days they would detox the alcoholic at somebodies house with a bottle of whiskey.

2.) Point of the program is living in society just like everybody else but living and enjoying life without the use of drugs. So going to bars, working in bars, working in a pharmacy if that was your source ect... without jonesing and without white nuckling it. This is as opposed to hiding from bars or people, ect...Some people in AA after some time have EtOH in their house in case they have guests.

3.)Good meetings are ones were people don't bitch about their life, or go on about their war stories, or how they are miserable because they have some asshole at work and they poped them one in the face or spit in their coffee and now they feel better. The point of meetings is to describe problems in life and how the spiritual tools you used made you ultimately at peace with yourself and solved the problem with the other person- if that bonus resulted, how you feel by practicing spiritual principles is the message they talk about. 

4.) What is the message: That an addict, _any_ addict will stop using drugs, loose the desire to use, and find a new way of life. NA claims that no one who lives the NA program and is an addict has failed to find recovery. Again, one needs to be an addict first. This is a program that is the last house on the block for who upper class bullshit programs and bullshit street programs that exploit people have failed. Most importantly its for people who have lost control over the ability to use drugs to the point were drugs have used them despite trying it every way. Its not for people- and I believe there are more than 12 stepers would like you 2 believe that have learned how to control drugs through self control. I can't- I know this from years of trying every conceivable way, but alittle chemical help doesn't hurt. Ultimately its our lives and program so we can take what works for us and do what we want or find works- methadone, ect... are tools in the tool box that lift the desperation so people can live by spiritual principles and achieve spiritual recovery.

ps: I started MMT (had done like 20 detoxes in the years before) but barely made it into the county program. Before that had to drive 1 hr each way to SF to get my dose for 2 months. Anyway, it was $100.00 which dropped to 50$ because I was a student. But the nursing staff was lame, poping people for alcohol on their breath, taking their time when you were late, only open b/w 7-11 (6 if you had a job). Group 1 time a week.

Got up to 130 mg because kept handing in dirties and they threatened to kick me off ( no other clinics in San Jose with 1 hr). Stoped after year on 130 right before ax. Tapered to 75 and moved to San Diego after 2 years.

In San Diego it was easier to get around piss test ( no temp) didn't test for benzos, thc, didn't give shit about EtOH. Nice staff. Good nurses that moved you along. Great counselors that got me steps-6. Relapsed on tar for a while but I had a pitcher of urine, shits changed i heard- aint as easy. But anyway I paid $300.00/ month but did better there because they treated me like a real person not a 2 year old and was able to taper. Place was oppen for dosing 5:30-7:00 pm! Got execeptions for travel easily rather than courtesy doses were every time somebody forgot to call. When that happened to us in Burbank when we were looking south to move, the clinics director called our San Jose director and tore him a new asshole for being such an insensetive asshole. Anyway way off topic

At good meetings you don't here bitching and moaning about how life sucks or dicksizing about who used more, but about the solution to the problem. There are lots of meetings go to different ones till you find the right one. If your young, give young peoples' meetings a try. You can relate, and if your court bordered, stuck at a meeting, there aint anything wrong with alittle eye candy. Atleast its easier to relate as opposed to a room full of old miserable dry drunks.


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## Wizzle

How inspiring that the founder of AA was another delirious prophet. I guess it's good if it helps but I'm really happy the twelve steps are not the gold standard here.


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## Khadijah

sixpartseven said:


> Lacey, the term "clean" in the context of drug users is derived from the way drug test results are described. You're "clean" if your test comes back negative, meaning no drugs in you. "Clean" most definitely means not using drugs at all.
> 
> Anyway, if that's the only argument, then it's one of semantics. I could have just as easily said "sober" or "dry" or "abstinint" and had it mean the same thing. I've heard many people refer to themselves as clean without having been addicted to something. Addiction is not a prerequisite for having drugs ruin/affect your life, so for someone that stops using completely despite never being addicted, they are most definitely "clean."
> 
> I think you're trying to twist the definition to justify something personal with your own use. I'm not trying to take anything away from your accomplishments - I'm very happy for you, in fact - but I refuse to accept that you are "clean" if you've only reduced your use rather than cut it out of your life completely. I don't see how anyone could honestly say to themselves that they are "clean" if they are still using at any rate.
> 
> Someone who uses but maintains a normal lifestyle is not clean, either. They are "functional/responsible drug users." "Clean" and "functional" are not the same thing. I've seen closet heroin addicts that are able to maintain a job, marriage, raise kids, and so on. Addicts. Are you telling me they are "clean" because they are living a normal life? Being able to use between probation piss tests in most certainly not being "clean" - it's being a smart or clever drug user, whichever you prefer. No offense, but I wouldn't label that as being "responsible" though. Being responsible would be following the guidelines set by your probation, which means being "clean" and not using at all.
> 
> Like I said, I'm not a fan of NA by any means. I think it's horrible, but the truth of the matter is, it works for some people, and dismissing it completely because Methadone and Suboxone are available isn't smart. Not everyone wants to go that route, so for them, NA should be an option.
> 
> My point still stands that it's much easier to get "clean" - no matter how you define the word - with Methadone or Suboxone than it is without, so for those that choose not to use those, NA could be beneficial. Even still, it won't work for everyone, but there are some people out there that NA certainly does work for.




I dont use anymore, at all. If u read between the lines in my last post carefully you will get the message that Im having a kid yo-There aint no room for dope in my life now.

I am on methadone.

I am, most definately, 100% clean.

If i had some kind of psychiatric problems, and was the same person but I needed prescribed antidepressants, and I was on those,

Would I be not "clean?"

Clean aint a drug test result. Its the fact that you are off the drugs you are addicted to and not using them.

If you disagree that a person who uses once , a few times in a year, is clean fine thats understandable,

but you absolutely cannot tell me that a person who is on suboxone or methadone, or ANY PRESCRIBED MEDICATION THAT THEY USE AS DIRECTED, aint clean.

If bein on maintenance aint clean then why does my PO know that I am on it and say to me , "So, you still clean?"

Why does the doctors, methadone and suboxone doctors ask you "So, you stayin clean?" The methadone clinic, my whole family, everybody. 

If i am off heroin and not abusing drugs, stabilized on methadone and living the life that i used to live before I was a junkie, Im clean. real talk, its silly to say it only refers to a drug test result. 

So, does that mean since drug tests only screen for certain drugs that if you come up clean on a piss test for the usual 5, youre "clean"? No of course not.

So , which drugs does it apply to? Is it OK to take antidepressants, psychological meds, blood pressure meds? But not MMT? It dont make no sense yo.

If you can say that your definition of clean includes not taking NOTHING, no prescribed drugs, no legal or illegal drugs, no alcohol, no cigarettes, not shit, then I will agree that I dont got the same opinion as you but it is valid.

but if you saying me, or anybody, aint clean even if we dont use but are on meth or sub, and you support the use of psychiatric medications or any other meds , and believe that IS clean to use those, then i think its a really unfair and kind of lopsided way you lookin at it.

I aint arguing about whether or not a person who uses on a rare occasion is clean, cuz I understand why you disagree and even though I completely believe that its absolutely fair to consider a person who does that "clean", I totally get why you dont.

But, to say that someone on prescribed treatment aint clean, now that is a whole nother thing that I feel like is totally unfounded unless you are saying that every single drug under the sun even if its for a blood pressure problem, must be out of your system to be clean. Cuz to allow for one drug but not another, that dont make no sense. Im curious how you feel about that cuz i cant tell exactly by your posts so i want to hear how u are lookin at this and understand it better.


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## MyDoorsAreOpen

Lacey is correct on two points. First, when the legal and healthcare systems assess whether someone is 'clean' or 'sober', prescribed medications taken exactly as prescribed don't count, even if they're psychotropic. Why? Because a medical doctor deems them warranted therapy for a documented medical condition.

Secondly, opiates, especially pure doses of pharmaceutical grade ones bought at a pharmacy (and again, taken exactly as prescribed under the supervision of a doc), are fairly low risk for a developing baby. The baby will be born addicted, and will be VERY crabby as he goes through withdrawl after birth. But he won't remember this, and if the withdrawl is managed by a doctor who's handled such babies before, he'll have no adverse effects later on in life. Birth defects are really not a big risk with this drug class, except in mothers who are full blown addicts to the extent where they neglect their nutrition and hygiene.

Frankly, I don't know how anyone can fault AA, NA, and the other 12 step programs. They don't collect any information on any members. They're completely straightforward with people about what they're all about -- no mysteries to unravel or secret agendas. You're free to stay and free to leave whenever you like. There's no money involved. The groups even admit that they don't work for everyone. Really, what's to hate? Especially when 12 step groups DO work at keeping a lot of people sober.

Granted, some 12-step groups are better quality than others, and I don't doubt that some chapters are indeed not healthy places to be. But that's a necessary evil of a decentralized organization -- the quality is going to vary, because no one is at the top giving orders. There's a simple solution to this problem, though: try a different group!

I am completely against anyone being mandated to go to 12 step meetings, by any authority whatsoever. That goes against the entire principle of the program -- it doesn't work if you don't want to be there and/or don't want to quit your addiction. The presence of court-mandated attendees, who say their affirmations with a sarcastic sneer, really hinders sincere attendees from taking the program seriously and having much faith in it.

I think of AA the same way I think of medicinal therapies. Both don't promise miracles and don't provide relief for everyone, but are valuable to those they DO provide therapy for. I do think more research needs to be done on what types of addicts tend to benefit (and not benefit) from the 12-step approach.


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## Wizzle

To be honest I wouldn't call being on MMT "clean" since it is a replacement therapy for an addiction. It is definitely a lot better then being clean and feeling like shit or being prone to relapse though. IMO it's better to be on MMT then to having to go to meetings every day..


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## Khadijah

Its a replacement therapy for your addiction but how does that make you not clean? Are you using the drugs you are addicted to in a harmful destructive way, living a reckless dangerous miserable life, puttin yourself at risk every second of the day, bein totally unhealthy mentally and physically?

I dont feel like "clean" is that black and white.

If an alcoholic is Catholic, and he never drinks a drop except every sunday he goes to Mass and drinks a sip of wine during Communion, is he not clean?

I think that its alot about your intentions. Dont get me wrong, it aint ALL about that, that woudl be stupid. You cant be off heroin but on pills and be like, well Im off the dope, so im clean. but i dont think thats the same as bein off heroin and on Suboxone or Methadone. Becuz the ppurpose and the intention behind it is different.

you replace heroin with another opiate that you take recreationally and addictively, with the intent to get fucked up and fuel your addiction, and still got the same negative, addictive attitudes towards how u use , then that is one thing.

But if you replace heroin with methadone or suboxone, and you let go of all that negative mentality, you become mentally healthy, you get a normal life and start to feel liek your old self again, you dont crave your methadone or suboxone, you dont take extra doses to try and get high, you aint doing none of that junkie shit--Then I think you are definately clean. 

Iunno, thats just me tho. I never been down with the idea that "you just replacing one with another." Because that whole 'addiction is a disease' thing would mean that like any disease, medications might be involved in the treatment of that disease. and the medications that treat addiction are methadone and suboxone. So taking them as prescribed aint no different than a overweight person who gets the lap-band surgery instead of using diet and exercise. they are both treatments for the problem, and depending on the person one might be more effective/appropriate than the other. for some obese people , its unrealistic for them to try to lose the weight that is a threat to their health and safety, by diet and exercise alone. they are too far gone and it just aint gonna work. For them gettin the operation is probably necessary, and will help treat their problem.

for addiction, some people will kick and not want or need a replacement therapy, and some people will. for those folks who been using for so long that their brains patterns are permanently re-wired, just stopping aint always gonna be enough. Especially since so many people are self medicating with the drugs that they addicted to, that drug is filling a certain spot in them, somethin thats actually a chemical imbalance, a real, actual problem, and they helping themself the only way they know how.

I honestly believe that taking methadone or suboxone is a valid way to treat addiction and that a person who is on it is just as "clean" as one who aint. If you are only taking the drug that TREATS your illness then that aint nothing even close to taking the drug that helped to partially cause or continue the illness.

theres alot of different views medically on addiction but if you look at the whole idea of the addiction gene, the addicted brain, etc, the addiction is there before the drug is-gettin off the drug aint gonna make the addiction go away, but treating it with the right medication is the way to control it and make the person  be able to live a normal life again, so i really dont see the problem with it or how a person who got clean using methadone or suboxone to either taper, or for maintenance, deserves any less respect, how their achievement is worth any less than someone who did it without medications.



Also, tell me this (just directed at anybody, not you in particular Wizzle)
If a person gets clean in a jail cell, without no medications or nothing, do THEY deserve less respect?

They HAD to get clean. They had no CHOICE, they didnt do it becuz they WANTED to, they got FORCED to do it. So if they kicked without methadone, it aint becuz they stronger, or they somehow "cleaner" than the person who did use methadone, they only was in that position becuz they had no other options and had to do it that way.

So is THAT less "clean" than a person who kicked voluntarily without meds?

And so on....


There is way more to it than simply "a person takes drugs/a person Dont take drugs"


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## Khadijah

Also, for anybody who is inolved in our lil side conversation here about how you decide if someone is "clean" or not, you should check out this thread in DC and post!

The Idea of being "clean" - How do you define it?  There is a poll inside, and also a fun game :D There is 11 situations listed, of a person using or not using drugs, and I ask people to decide which ones they think are clean and which ones aint, in their opinion, and why they feel that way. And in general just discuss wat does "clean" mean to them, the drugs you can and cant do and still be 'clean', and so on. I really hope that it can grow to be a big thread with lots of people throwin their 2 cents in and since yall been discussin this with me for a while in here I hope that you come join in .  (please? ) 

I really like hearing peoples thoughts on this type of shit and I would love it if some of yall would come and participate in that thread so I could understand your ideas better. Also, it would take some of the semi-off topic discussion out of this thread and in a place that it fits better so we dont turn this thread into a completely different discussion than it originally was suppose to be.


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## seep

multiple posters said:
			
		

> What's wrong with 12-step?



At least in my part of the world, the fellowships have not repudiated compulsory participation. This is inimical to the spirit and letter of the 6th tradition:



> 6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.



On the other side of the coin, LEOs and state-sponsored substance abuse counselors are forced by law to criminalize 12-step non-compliance.


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## badandwicked

Lacey k - congratulations on your pregnancy. You do talk as though you intend to use in the future but just not during the pregnancy, as you are responsible for another life. You're just as responsible as a mother though whether the baby is is in your womb or outside of it.
You are clearly a woman of conviction, which I admire, however I urge you to be open minded. A few years ago you were posting advocating and glamorising heroin, see how your attitude has changed? Years and experience bring change, don't be too down on an organisation that has helped millions. Like I say, keep an open mind.


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## Blotted

*un-aa*

Interesting thread. When I turned 30 I quit drinking (and using, though my primary life-wrecking substance was ETOH). Although I had been urged by the law enforcement and motor vehicle powers that be to attend 12 step meetings, I spent a goodly amount of time reading and researching various addiction oriented theories and other 'quit' related literature. I can't say precisely why I was able to suddenly become 'sober' after having been to numerous detoxes and rehabs, but I'm pretty much convinced the main impetus was that I decided that, although I had been 'taught' over and over again that the only possible means to quitting was to delve whole-heartedly into AA, all I really needed I already posessed- the power to simply not pick up another drink, regardless of the circumstance. In short, I got myself into this mess and I could and did get myself out of it as well. The two most influential books I read were: 1) Unhooked, by Jim Christopher, the founder of SOS (Save our selves) and 2) The Diseasing of America, by Stanton Peele. These two authors had completely opposite philosophies. The SOS book(s) basically state that one doesn't need to rely on any sort of 'higher power' to quit. One might attend an SOS meeting for mutual empowerment, but, although helpful at first, one has the innate power within oneself to quit, and a continual reliance on meetings is probably in itself a form of addiction.  The Peele book, on the other hand, premises that the overwhelming majority of people who give up an addiction do so on their own, without any sort of intervention or involvement in the 'recovery' community. In the politically correct world view of substance (ab)use, Peele makes a compelling argument that people who overuse substances do so mainly because they want to, and that quitting basically happens for the same reason. Although a genetic factor comes into play, it would be disingenuous to believe that one has absolutely no part to play in the decision to use to the point of wrecking one's life. Of course he does believe, quite correctly, in the addictive nature of particular substances, but most definitely does not believe in the addictive nature of people, other than what we are mostly all born with.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I basically quit on my own, owning my own power in the matter. As the years go by I came to realize that my wack drinking and iv coke use was something I did along time ago, and I wasn't really very mature at the time. My life now is completely incompatible with that kind of using. It's just something which couldn't work within my lifestyle anymore.

As far as the 12 step issue is concerned, I'm really glad that I don't need to associate my life as it is now with some continual "and when we were wrong promptly admitted it/ sought through prayer and meditation..." scenario. I'm happy living drug free. I feel healthier and can't imagine any sort of reason why I would care to pollute myself.


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## sixpartseven

I never said using Methadone or Suboxone disqualifies you from being clean. I never meant to imply that. I do see where it sounds like I said that, and that's my fault for not specifying. What I meant was that going from using heroin every day to say...once a week, or once a month even, despite the fact that you're using either Methadone or Suboxone in between, is not "getting clean." Clean means you're either A) using your maintenance drugs as prescribed without using heroin, or B) not using heroin without the assistance of maintenance drugs.


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## CaseFace

Yeah, NA/AA whatever you go to, if it helps, all the more power to you. But personally i dislike NA as a treatment option. Embracing a higher power/god to get clean isn't something i am interested in. As well as the fact that i still consider myself a drug 'user', and have only ever been an 'abuser' of opiates. But in the eyes of NA still smoking pot or doing psychs occasionally makes me a drug addict still...


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## BaybeX

lacey k said:


> I didnt make it all the way thru the whole article becuz I just aint beat for hearing the story of how it started, etc, all over again but I will force myself to. I got to the part of Bill W in the hotel and having a trip-vision of god n all that and skimmed thru the rest.
> 
> They dont know how AA works becuz it aint "AA" thats working, its the people who brainwash themselfs with the philosophies of it. And Dr Drew can suck a fucking dick, Oh, "If a person dont want to to the 12 steps they dont want to get better" FUCK YOU, You ignorant piece of pig shit. How insulting can you be to the idea of personal responsibility?...........



I haven't finished reading this, Lacey.. but damn.. you got some strong feelings girl.
I'm totally with you.  100%.


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## Khadijah

badandwicked said:


> Lacey k - congratulations on your pregnancy. You do talk as though you intend to use in the future but just not during the pregnancy, as you are responsible for another life. You're just as responsible as a mother though whether the baby is is in your womb or outside of it.
> You are clearly a woman of conviction, which I admire, however I urge you to be open minded. A few years ago you were posting advocating and glamorising heroin, see how your attitude has changed? Years and experience bring change, don't be too down on an organisation that has helped millions. Like I say, keep an open mind.



No, I aint gonna be using at all regardless of once I have the kid.

I was explaining how I used up to the point that I got pregnant and how I considered it to be clean, but I think you misunderstanding my post. I said straight up that I aint got no room for dope in my life now that I am gonna be a mom so, I think you confused the parts where I explained how I got clean at first (telling myself it didnt have to be forever to make it easier on myself) with how I actually am now.


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## TheMagi

*Look in the mirror*

All this criticism of a system of self change. So quick to criticize yet so slow to learn, reflect, and SEE. 

If you haven't even come to grips with your own spirituality of course AA/NA isn't going to work. The only real cult I see in today's society is the indoctrination of anti-religion. There is this deep-set aversion to all things that can even remotely be seen as religious or spiritual or involving the element of God.

There is no question of if there is or isn't a God. It is actually irrelevant. Regardless of what you call it, it exists for it is simply the All. The infinite. The sum total. God is in us and we are in God. It is a cosmic principle. Not some entity to be believed in or not. God is Life itself. It is the intelligent principle of the Universe which initiates and sustains creation. 

And please, no creationist/evolutionist banter. They are one in the same. Every THING has a beginning. It's creation. And every THING has an existential path it follows to its eventual end. So yes we are created, and yes we evolve.

People today are so full of the *I* that you can't even see the world around you. One person thinks they are so in control and they did this and accomplished that, so it makes them feel somehow proud and full of themselves. The truth of the matter is that no one person accomplishes any one action except through the agency of the ONE LIFE POWER. The universal source of life. 

This the higher power AA/NA asks you to recognize, not "God" or any other foolish idea of some gaseous invertebrate in the sky playing the world like puppets.

The higher power is your own existence. Your own potential. The very energy you are composed of, which is light. Light being both intelligent and conscious. Physics agrees with this, although they are still working on the mathematical proofs of consciousness. The intelligent principle of the universe which historically cultures have referred to as God/deity/divinity is what we perceive as number. There are so many sources for information on the esoteric principles of number. Just google it.

Number becomes manifest as Light. Light itself being the source of Life, Intelligence, and Consciousness.

I digress.

The point being that its is only ignorance that causes fear of the spiritual. Fear of the Self. That fear will always distort the reflection of the universe that is your reality. 

Creativity and drugs are not mutually dependent. That is an absurd notion. Creativity is an intrinsic property of LIFE and CONSCIOUSNESS. The highest Art comes from a CLEAR and SOBER perception of Self, which in turn produces a CLEAR reflection of Reality. What you believe to be reality is created by your own DEFINITIONS of experience.

The universe is but a rippling pool of light. What makes reality is our own conscious interpretation of the REFLECTION of our SELF.

The highest principle of any system of spiritual development (of which NA/AA is but one particular manifestation) is to initiate the aspirant to the knowledge of Self which brings about an understanding of how we create our own reality. That our current circumstance are the result of our own creative processes, and to take conscious control of that process to use it harmoniously with nature. Universal nature as well as human nature for they are one in the same. The microcosm and the macrocosm. 

Until we accomplish this we are wandering in the dark. Confused and chasing after every ghost we haphazardly create in our ignorance of Self. A slave to appearances of separateness instead of the Truth of Unity.

This is what NA/AA provides for people who may not otherwise be able to semantically accept anything else. The purpose is to transcend the confusion of the false definitions we are programmed with and actually BECOME that higher power. GOD is another name for MAN.

So please, have your opinion, but leave room for Truth as well. The only way to find subjective proof is through experience. Doing. Unless it takes into account both subjective AND objective facts, it is an incomplete science.

Peace & Blessings


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## MzAnthroP

Live and let live.


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## Cloudy

Its really not that surprising that having a group of people with a common goal, who can support each other helps.  These groups get you to have a support group of people who all have the same interest and who don't come with a high risk of peer pressure, like you would have with potentially some friends.


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## Khadijah

I absolutely recognize a higher power. I got every belief in that, and its a real, deep faith that only came to me thru all the shit I been thru teachin me and I finally can understand.

But that dont mean I support NA or AA. My beef with the program aint nothing to do with bein unable to recognize a higher power, or that i got a problem with admitting i need help, or w/ever. Its the idea that you cant do it without the program. The idea that you are totally powerless, that you DONT change, that you will NEVER be recovered, that you will ALWAYS need the program, "FOR-EVAR."

Stories about people who was clean for a long time and then missed one meeting, gets told at the meetings like fairy tales of the skip-a-meeting boogie man, "He was sober for 26 years. He went to meetings every day. One day, he didnt show up , everybody was scared for him. The next week we found out that he had died of a overdose." And so on. These tales is really like some little kid, around the campfire shit - "She was 67 years old, had stopped drinking when she was 24. She faithfully came to meetings, but once she got sick, she stopped coming, sayin she was too tired. She thought she was old enough and far along enough in her recovery that she could afford to skip a few meetings, but she was WRONG. She started smoking the medical marijuana that the doctor prescribed her for her Multiple sclerosis. Soon she started taking drinks here and there during the week when her pain got really bad. She ended up a full blown alcoholic again, and her liver failed and now shes in the hospital and she said the other day, Oh i shoulda just kept going to those meetings! I thought i didnt need the program, but I DO!! Now i realize that i need it no matter how old I get, and that I can only stay sober thru the program!"

come on, who aint heard these stories at the meetings. Its like, the change aint inside of YOU. The change is the  meetings. do it how we tell you to do it or youll end up like them. Dont doubt. Dont think for yourself and think that YOU got the power to change, that YOU changed inside--Its just that the MEETINGS let you do that. Without them you aint shit, you aint got no recovery. They are your life  blood, the truth that sets you free, the only way.

its like Dumbo and the Magic feather. He thinks he can fly as long as he got the feather. really he can fly on his own. He loses the feather when  hes flying and crashes to the ground becuz he dont realize its his own strenth that lets him do it.

How can you call it a program of self change when the entire idea it works around is that you need the program and you need the steps to be able to succeed, and if you abandon them whether its at the beginning, middle , or end of your recovery, even years down the line, you will fall right back into the same addiction that brought you to the program in the first place.

The fact is that you CAN change, you CAN recover, and you DONT need the program to do that--but the NEGATIVE, SELF DEFEATING THINKING of "I WILL FAIL if i leave the program" ends up PUTTING people into that spot. If you truly believe that you will relapse and fail if you stop goin to meetings, of course you gonna relapse and fail. Its the prescribed thing that you been told will happen, its like you been directed to do it.

You take the same group of people and give them the program and tell them that its up to them, that the program can inspire changes but ultimately they come from the inside, and its up to you to make it work, are they gonna all relapse as soon as they miss a meeting?

The "leaving the steps = failure and addiction, relapse and using" idea is a SELF FULFILLING PROPHECY....THATS how they always get "PROVED RIGHT" when somebody strays from the flock and goes off on their own. And of course they come back like "hey, you guys were right, I ended up using! wow, you guys really know wat you talking about!" Its programming them to believe that is their only choice--And the people who really devote themself to that shit, who really alllow themself to believe it, they totally eat it all up every last bit of it, and if they miss a meeting, even if they dont MEAN to, they got this terrible horrible fear that they will AUTOMATICALLY , like, Default to using again. Thats the fear in the beginning of the article that is just so ridiculous to me. The way they warp your mind to believe that you really cant do it on your own, that yuo NEED them.

I guess I got alot of negativity towards the program becuz the thing it has turned into sounds a lot more to me like a program of NOT changing--of believing you are the same addict , just as likely to relapse, who needs meetings, meetings, meetings, NA all the time, just as much 50 years after quitting as the day you put down the needle.

The idea that you CANNOT DO IT WITHOUT THE PROGRAM is the docttrine that I hate and that the whole program is based around.

Oh, you dont wanna work the steps, you aint really ready. Oh, you dont agree with the program, you gonna end up in jails institutions or death. You aint "ready" to "work the program" yet, it means that you THINK you want to get clean but you dont. Come back when you ready. "But I AM READY. I just dont agree with the way you teach this, and totally disagree with your beliefs." Oh thats just your addiction telling you excuses, reasons not to give it a try. Youll see someday, youll look back and see how it was really just another excuse not to get well. 

And so on....Its like no matter how you explain it, anybody who aint down with the teachings of the program is just a addict who aint ready to get clean. And if you ready to get clean and really want it, you ready for the program. Black and white, yes or no. I dont agree with that. And regardless of how NA is meant to be, the way that its taught at meetings , the PEOPLE, are who makes up the program and its impression on others so it does matter how it s now even if that aint the original intention of the program.


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## MzAnthroP

lacey k said:


> the idea that you cant do it without the program. The idea that you are totally powerless, that you DONT change, that you will NEVER be recovered, that you will ALWAYS need the program, "FOR-EVAR."



"If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we 
have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!"

The book actually suggests that 'we do recover.' But that my recovery is contingent upon maintenance of my spiritual condition. Meaning, in my opinion, that I can't go rob or rape someone, cheat on my wife, etc. I must leave the world a better place than I found it. Part of that is carrying the message that I have recovered using that set of steps to the still-suffering alcoholic/addict. 

I never claim that AA is the only way. I can only speak from my experience. It worked for me. Nothing else did.



lacey k said:


> skip-a-meeting boogie man



Don't know what kind of meetings you go to, but in my opinion reliance upon meetings won't keep anyone sober. It's in the steps, and in God. I go to maybe one or two a week. It's not hard, and it doesn't run my life. It's just one aspect of my life.



lacey k said:


> its like Dumbo and the Magic feather.



I have more to lose now than ever before. If there is even the tiniest remote possibility that I could go back to being completely fucking miserable, pissed off every morning because I even woke up, and hating practically every moment of my existence... why would I take so much as half a step in that direction?

When I get so much satisfaction from flying in this new life, does it even matter whether it's me or the feather (God) keeping me off the ground?




lacey k said:


> How can you call it a program of self change



I don't. I don't take responsibility for my life now, because self-reliance made me miserable. God-reliance is what keeps me content today. I know that's pretty hard to fathom for a lot of people, but I don't question it. I used to, but discovered that for me, it's pointless.



> when the entire idea it works around is that you need the program and you need the steps to be able to succeed, and if you abandon them whether its at the beginning, middle , or end of your recovery, even years down the line, you will fall right back into the same addiction that brought you to the program in the first place.



Usually, again, from my own experience, people do fall right back into it. Sorry if that truth is unpleasant for you. I've yet to hear about someone smoking crack again, or even drinking again, and becoming wildly successful. Usually if they're in AA in the first place it's because they aren't merely heavy drinkers or recreational pot smokers. They're real alcoholics, or real drug addicts. They can't just put it down and walk away. They need something to fill the void left behind, and for me that void is filled by God, and helping others.



> I guess I got alot of negativity towards the program becuz the thing it has turned into sounds a lot more to me like a program of NOT changing--of believing you are the same addict , just as likely to relapse, who needs meetings, meetings, meetings, NA all the time, just as much 50 years after quitting as the day you put down the needle.



I agree with you on this part. "The Program" has changed. I will not bash NA because that works for some people, but a lot of the grievances you have seem to be based on the sort of fellowship-reliance that runs so rampant in NA. 

However, it is impossible to deny that doing those steps changes people. If you actually observe someone doing it, and doing it for real, the change is incredible. It doesn't happen overnight, but it's fantastic to watch someone stop focusing so much on what the world can do for them, and start focusing on what they can do for the world. 



> The idea that you CANNOT DO IT WITHOUT THE PROGRAM is the docttrine that I hate and that the whole program is based around.



I never had that idea. I just know what worked for me. And what didn't.  I don't think there is any such doctrine to be honest. I've never read anything like that in the book.



> Oh, you dont wanna work the steps, you aint really ready. Oh, you dont agree with the program, you gonna end up in jails institutions or death. You aint "ready" to "work the program" yet, it means that you THINK you want to get clean but you dont. Come back when you ready. "But I AM READY. I just dont agree with the way you teach this, and totally disagree with your beliefs." Oh thats just your addiction telling you excuses, reasons not to give it a try. Youll see someday, youll look back and see how it was really just another excuse not to get well.



That type of rhetoric certainly turns a lot of people away I'm sure. Which is why I don't use it. It's too bad you had that experience.



> And so on....Its like no matter how you explain it, anybody who aint down with the teachings of the program is just a addict who aint ready to get clean. And if you ready to get clean and really want it, you ready for the program. Black and white, yes or no. I dont agree with that. And regardless of how NA is meant to be, the way that its taught at meetings , the PEOPLE, are who makes up the program and its impression on others so it does matter how it s now even if that aint the original intention of the program.



I guess if you ever find yourself in a situation again where you are considering the possibility that you cannot stop using drugs or drinking on your own, you should give Alcoholics Anonymous a try.

My very first sponsor misunderstood something I said on the phone, and told me something along the lines of 'call me when you're ready.'

So I got a different sponsor. Most people who use substances the way addicts do get pretty butthurt if you approach them the wrong way in the beginning. 

For my sponsees, I personally don't give a shit whether they agree with what they perceive the 12 steps to be when they first show up. If they are willing to honestly try what worked for me, with an open mind, _even if they have doubts it will work_, I will work with them. And so far I have two with over a year.

tl;dr

All I'm trying to say is that it works, and Lacey, sorry you feel that way. AA gave me a new lease on life and thank God for that. I don't want/need to convert anyone, but I used to share a lot of the same prejudices you have now. I had to get over them to make my life work. Call me a sheep. Call it a cult. I am happier these days then ever in my life and it's thanks to AA and God. Not me, my fears, or my prejudices.


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## Khadijah

I do got to say that all my experiences has been with NA and not AA. I had to go to a few AA meetings when I was in detox a few years ago and the AA members really had a bad attitude towards the drug users, it didnt make no sense to me since its all addiction, all drugs, but anyways just to make it clear that I am only speakin about my experience with NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS and NOT AA.

Thanks for your reply of breakin down things bit by bit, Ima come back for more later but for now I wanted to reply to this one part you said



> Usually, again, from my own experience, people do fall right back into it. Sorry if that truth is unpleasant for you. I've yet to hear about someone smoking crack again, or even drinking again, and becoming wildly successful. Usually if they're in AA in the first place it's because they aren't merely heavy drinkers or recreational pot smokers. They're real alcoholics, or real drug addicts. They can't just put it down and walk away. They need something to fill the void left behind, and for me that void is filled by God, and helping others.




I have experienced it myself--it took me a few months of not using, and time inside my head to kind of re-wire how i thought about shit, how i approached it. Gradually losing the obsession and the mentality, the addict mindset. The shit inside my mind that loved the drugs and needed them, the addict inside of me. that mentality aint permanent. You aint stuck that way, at least I wasnt. Thru alot of hard work and just gettin inside my own head and sorting shit out over time I been able to clean out those ways of thinking and the same way that addiction re-wires you brain into these certain patterns i was able to undo that work and kind of 're-set' my mind and thought patterns into the ones of who i was before I was addicted before i thought and lived and dreamed and everything-ed like a addict.

I aint using no more, but I was able to use a handful of times , totally successfully. i got high, had some fun, enjoyed it, but when I did it, it wasnt like that "sweet return" feeling...It was not like when you are addicted and you dont use for a little while, and when you get that first high again its like the person you love most in the world was away from you, and now they home, and you just ran up to them and held them in your arms, and that moment of first seeing them again is like the way that when I was addicted, i would eel when i did my first shot after a while of not using.

But it was compeltely different after I got clean. It was just......A fun time. Just a high, a recreational drug, a thing I did that was just, wat it was. It wasnt like i felt this kind of ecstasy, that rush of happiness that I was doing dope again. It wasnt like gettin reunited with your long lost love, or your first bite of food after starving lost in a snow storm for 2 weeks. I cant hardly explain the difference--it was just a drug. Just a high, just a feeling. All that mentality, all the baggage ATTACHED to the high--it wasnt there. It wasnt nothing even close to the feeling of release, relief, ecstasy, total complete surrender, that it used to be when I was hooked on the shit living the life of a junkie. 

I never realized that the change in my attitude, in how i saw it, how i thought about it , everything, could cause that much of a difference. It was amazing--it was like that obsession, that feeling of always feelin drawn to heroin, like a magnet, it was gone. That way that it would always suck me back, the way i loved it and thought of it so lovingly.....

Imagine a unhealthy relationship with somebody that you head over heels in love with...the kind of relationship where you so passionately, intensely in love with that person that its scary, that kind of would-do-anything attitude, that makes people go crazy, light their boyfriends house on fire and shit like that. The kind of way that person CONTROLS the other, how they are obsessed with their mate, how they could never imagine leaving them, how that person got so much power over the other, they cant possibly imagine life without their mate, every word the mate says got the possiblity to make them laugh or cry....The feeling that a stalked, battered woman has of her husband/Boyfriend always being after them, the life of fear, that they aint never safe, and the way a person can influence your life so deeply all the way to the core.

Now imagine finally getting out of that relationship, and being able to see that person when you happen to walk past each other in the grocery store, and feel nothing. Just see them like any other stranger that you walk by. All their power over you is gone, and you just feel nothin at all, nothing different than how you did before you saw them.

Thats how it was for me when i used again. In the past "seeing my ex husband" to keep the metaphor, would have caused me to feel afraid, or feel a rush of wanting him back, wanting to be with him again. I would have either felt scared , like i had to get away, like the walls closing in, terrified, OR, felt a rush of excitement--I missed him so much! I got to be with him again. And ran up to him, grabbed him, "lets get a motel room, I need you, i missed you, i cant wait to be with you again", totally overwhelmed by that intensity, that obsession.

THAT is the addicts reaction to their DOC--afraid that they might use again, scared that its gonna somehow come and attack them, suck them up and whisk them away back to addict-life, that they are so vulnerable, at risk, at any moment they could fall in and drownd in a relapse. Or the giving into temptation, overpowering urge and craving to do it again, to feel it one more time, to get that feeling back and let it wash over them. 

But the non addict is "take it or leave it." All the emotional, psychological response is gone. 

Over 9 months, I used a few times. Enough to count on one hand i would say , i didnt keep count of it but it was very little. 

Each time, I used for one day. I enjoyed it, not as much as I used to becuz that intense rollercoaster ride wasnt there, and part of really enjoying the high was feeling the lows. But yea, it was fun, I got high, caught a nod and got my kicks. But the next day I didnt feel regret, didnt feel sad that it was over, like i wished i could do it again. I didnt have the urge to go cop again, "just one more time." I didnt feel nothing, really. It was over, that was that.

Thinking about when i could or would do it again didnt cross my mind. It wasnt a countdown to next time. It wasnt just killin time, days, weeks, months, til i could get high again. The shit was out of my mind, not a issue. it didnt sneak into my thoughts, it was never constantly there lurking in the back of my mind like it was when i was using and addicted. 

I would absolutely say that I WAS able to use "just once" and not fall off. Not go back into the addict life, not "relapse". Anytime I did used it was a choice that I decided on after making sure it was the right timing, usually it was on a special type of day like taking a trip down the shore, or for my birthday, my mans  birthday, a meet up with a friend that I hadnt seen in a long time who came out from Cali to visit, etc. 

And i was most definately a "real" drug addict. When I was addicted, no I couldnt just put it down and walk away. But now I can. I choose not to these days, and I aint gonna be using no more now, but the point is that I did, and was able to. And if I was still open to the idea of gettin high, I can definately have "just one" and be done. In the past I couldnt, aint no question. But I aint the same person that I was. I aint the same addict, and aint gonna be the same addict forever. I aint always just gonna be "drug addict", at risk of any and every substance. I dont use no drugs now, but say i did-- If i take some E pills, I aint gonna go crazy on them and start usin em all the time. I have ALWAYS been able to drink responsibly without over doing it, without even bein interested in overdoing it. With other drugs, it was never that I had to control myself from wanting to overdo it , and was able to. It was that I didnt even have the urge to abuse them in the first place, so it wasnt a issue.

But with opiates unfortunately that wasnt the case. I always had the craving for more and i always listened to it for many years. It took from the time I was 14 to bein 23 now, that I finally got able to get a handle on it. But now I got the same indifference...I will always enjoy opiates if I happen to take them for watever reason it may be, but that hold that they had on me, that obsessive love that I had for them, thats gone now. Killin off that destructive obsession is one of the main difference between the addictive mentality and the mentality of somebody using recreationally. 

 It took a while to get there and a whole lot of deep thinking and bein honest with myself, understanding where all these needs to use was coming from and finding other ways to live and be happy. It was a lot of work in my head, no question about that. 

But the same person that use to shoot 10 bags in one shot, who could waste 50 bags in a day and a half, who overdosed, and then pulled the IV out as soon as the cops left the hospital and went back to go get the dope that had been stashed before the friends called 911 to try and get high again, cuz she was mad that such a great high had got interrupted by the EMT's resussitating her--That person was able to change, and that changed person was able to use that same drug that once totally owned her life, in a responsible, moderate way, without letting it cause her to fall back into the same old traps of addiction, and being able to let go of it when she had to. 

I understand that not many people will be like me, and many addicts really CANT ever use again without fallin right back into it. But some people can, and becuz I am one of them I hate the idea that always gets drilled into the head of anybody that is at a NA meeting, "You use once, you are done for", and so on. It aint like that for me and becuz I been able to successfully use "just once" from time to time without no negative effects, without anything even close to getting addicted again, and not even that I was able to control the urge to act like an addict but the fact that I didnt even HAVE that urge at all--Becuz of that I know that there is more, that you aint got to limit yourself with these ideas that you "cant" do this or that becuz you are a addict. For me at least, for others it maybe and probably is different. But for me, I know where I stand with it and it aint nowhere near the ideas of the lifestyle they teaching in NA.


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## marilynonmars

Wizzle said:


> To be honest I wouldn't call being on MMT "clean" since it is a replacement therapy for an addiction. It is definitely a lot better then being clean and feeling like shit or being prone to relapse though. IMO it's better to be on MMT then to having to go to meetings every day..



wow... chastising someone for being on replacement therapy, and then saying you would rather take a narcotic drug every day for the rest of your life to "stay clean" than remain entirely drug free and simply go to a meeting. the absolute lack of clarity in the thought process during active addiction is baffling...... 

i have been clean/sober for 6 months, i do go to AA and it does help, it is not the god factor, you actually don't even need to believe in god (there is a reason they say "higher power/god of your understanding" and many people in the program use the acronym "group of drunks" and use the group as their higher power)
but:

a) the network/support system of sober people keeping you accountable
b) a somewhat therapeutic plan of action ("the steps")

that is what i feel about the program works for me, so far this is best found and demonstrated in the rooms of AA and until something else with those principles is developed and reproduced with proven success and uniformity people will continue to be baffled by the mechanisms of AA's success and the nay-sayers will continue to stay away on the basis of "god" involvement or past failure because they did not allow the program to work for them or simply weren't willing.

a big thing about being sober is that nobody will be able to be sober until they are entirely willing to change anything they have to, and do anything they have to, to get that way. if they aren't willing to do that- they are just fooling themselves.


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## RearNakedChoke

Very interesting read, as i have recently been in a 12 step rehab and gone to a few meetings. Stopped going a few months back, because i don't believe in the disease model, being powerless and all that. I've felt somewhat alone because it's served as the only cure, although i've felt that i have the power to choose myself. Reading Laceys and others comments really helped me realize there's others thinking just like myself, even if i don't agree on every point. Rational Recovery seems very interesting to me, it's something i will look up alot more. 

Long time since i posted on here but i'd just like to thank you guys for providing your insight and experience, for that i am very grateful.


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## donnie080208

agree with the A.A. doubters on here. there is an excellent article on the web called the orange papers that clearly outlines the flaws. from my own experience i find A.A./N.A. voyeurism, with most long term members stories spoken like of a tape recorder and getting a thrill out of their hardships and an allmost competition like atmosphere of one up manship. i have read studies that have found your chances of staying sober are better alone doing nothing than A.A.. also the its a bad place to get advice with members telling you to stop psyhciatric meds and bupe/meth maintenance


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## donnie080208

@MARILLYNOMARS                   you can "bend the rules" all you like but GOD in A.A. means god, not group of drunks etc..to say otherwise is absolute DENIAL and goes against A.A.s history and teachings. You can tell someones been brainwashed by A.A. by the same old mantras they constantly throw out. think,think,think etc etc..A.A./N.A. way isnt the only way or the most sucessful professional help is , with meds or maintenance. the stats prove this (allthough  still terrible)


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## oliphill

Good article. The fact is 100's of thousands of people have completely turned their lives around and often saved their life because of AA and NA meetings. Regardless if the philosophies behind it and the "Vaguely defined higher power", it does work and help a lot of people.

I can't personally get my head round it yet and can't seem to make it work for me. I can imagine that a lot of people of this fourm are in the same boat. As, making a very big generalisation here, we want to tackle our problems our own way. I'm basing this, loosely, on the fact that by becoming a member of a forum like bluelight, one has already shown that they want to do their own research into drugs, alcohol, the effects and problems caused by them and how to get better.

I still attend meetings, with the aim to try to make them work for me, but no luck thus far.

Anyone checked out S.M.A.R.T before? (Self management and recovery training). Similar type of thing, with Live online meetings, which I can imagine a lot of people on here would be interested in.  Link: http://www.smartrecovery.org/


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## eon_blue

xoqqiy axlotao3al said:


> i believe that for some people, especially those using hard-core physically addictive drugs (coke, meth, H, alcohol) that AA/NA may be the only way for them to maintain sobriety for any length of time.
> 
> I do believe it works for those people better than other programs, statisitcally speaking.
> 
> But its one-size-fits-all approach is both maddening and, in the end, intellectually confusing. I sit in a room and say "i am exactly the same as you." But I have never touched H, meth, coke or even alcohol; am i the same?
> 
> What I found frustrating around this community was
> 
> (a) people whose actual dependence is unclear, but who glom onto the community because it's a place to belong [there are people in my local NA whose period of drug use appears to have been, e.g., six months of pot smoking when they were 20, and are still in AA in their 50s--I wish I were kidding, but I'm not];
> 
> (b) the ultimate view that everything bad in one's life is a direct result of addiction, so that meetings can sometimes go almost like this: "My boss yelled at me today. And being a typical addict, I felt bad." And everyone nods, as if a non-addict (whatever that is supposed to be) would *not* have felt bad. Nope: it's normal to feel bad. Your addiction may OR may not have something to do with it.
> 
> (c) the inability to find any coherent way to distinguish between kinds of addictions and kinds of substances; they AREN'T all the same, and if they were, we would not need all the different kinds. We repeat several times in the meetings that drugs only end in "jails, institutions, and death." Yet (as I even braved to say in a few meetings)--can anyone point me at even a LOT of pothead/psychdelic users who have ended up that way? In my experience, there are a whole lot of potheads out there who will never end up in any one of those ways. In fact it's HARD to end up that way unless you live in a very anti-pot state and get caught by LEO.
> 
> (d) the concomitant failure to honestly address what drugs do for us. why did I finally stop going to meetings? I am an artist and writer. Every meeting would end with people going to the parking lot, smoking cigarettes (which I don't do, having quit decades ago--again, no way of dealing with that within NA context), and listening to music by the likes of Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones, Aphex Twin, Radiohead, Grateful Dead, Beatles, and frankly every fucking band you can think of who openly used drugs while they were making music and would insist that the two things are connected. They are. Human beings need creativity. Creativity and mind alteration are connected. We can't just pretend that mind alteration doesn't exist.
> 
> I feel bad, because I wish NA and AA were more what they say they are.  But I worry. The closer I actually got to those people, not only did I feel pressure to cut off vital friendships and activities because they interfered with NA "outings"; I also started to hear rumors of drug deals, lying group members, and false recoveries, enough of which made me really wonder about the claims to success the group has.
> 
> I also do not believe they remain un-infiltrated by LEO. There are quite a few people in my local community whose presence, jobs, lives make no sense, unless they have some other means of support that keeps them in NA (for, here again, very light histories of drug use).
> 
> I will carp one more time: Bill W's use of LSD, given my own exclusive use of psychedelics and avoidance of alcohol, really warped my mind. Why was I there again?
> 
> Oh, I'll add one more complaint: some NA people are really hardcore anti-psychiatric drugs, but when they encourage members to stop taking them because "all drugs are bad" (drinks from coffee cup, takes drag on cigarette) I really start to worry--you are entitled to your views, but not to interfere with another person's medical care.



I really could not have said it better myself. _Everything_ you've mentioned was word for word what eventually led to my leaving the program.

I went into rehab for a "baby" heroin addiction I picked up in my early twenties. I would use for a week straight, get on subs for a week or two, then use again. That was my regimen and I kept my tolerance relatively low throughout. One day I got busted by my parents and ended up in rehab, and consequently ended up in "the program". 

Fast forward +/- 8 months and I just couldn't take the AA lifestyle anymore, I left and stayed clean on my own for maybe another month or two. Ended up relapsing and using H daily for nearly 4 months straight before one day I woke up without any and decided I didn't want to drive an hour to spend another $100 bucks that I didn't have. Used the three remaining subs I had left to detox and I haven't had an opiate since. That was a year and 3 months ago now. 

I don't subsribe to the AA model for a number of reasons, one of the biggest being that I don't believe that everyone needs absitence from _all_ drugs (speaking of which, caffeine and tobacco are drugs and I did always find that largely hypocritcial). Abstinence is a blanket solution and for some people (especially those like me who are young adults attending university) it just forces you into isolation from your peers. Which, over time, has a profoundly negative effect on you and in my case made me relapse harder when I eventually did. After that relapse I got clean on my own and haven't touched dope or a needle since I last put it down over a year ago. 

I drink a few times a week when I go out with my friends or have a beer with my dad over dinner. My friends and I will go to a rave every 2 or 3 months and I'll take a couple of pills. I do this because it's fun, because it doesn't make me want to do it compusively and because not doing it makes me feel like I'm subscribing to a way of life that is being dictated by everyone else but me (which in turn, makes me more self-destructive in the end as a means of rebellion). I'm sorry, but I'm not one of those people that will completely let go of the wheel and let someone else drive. I happily did that for a number of months when I needed a wake up call after letting myself get out of control. I learned my lesson. Now I get the wheel back. AA would rather have held onto it forever, no thank you. Believing in a higher power *is not* synonymous with handing over control of my life to someone/something else, at least not for me.

Ultimately, I just can't subscribe to the idea that because I made a few stupid decisions as a 19-23 year old that I must now completely surrender myself to a program that is going to label me and treat me like a hopeless addict for the rest of my life. Seems like a self-depracating/self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything.


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## hebb22

It works if you want it to. I find the 12 steps to be a great guide if you _honestly_ want to change your life


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## eon_blue

8) 

Such open-minded logic you possess there. 

If you _honestly_ wanted to go to heaven after you died, you'd be Muslim. Are you Muslim? If not, you're only fooling yourself. 

If you _honestly_ believed in freedom you'd be a republican. 

If you _honestly_ had a heart you'd be pro-life. 

I _honestly_ wanted to stop using and get my life back on track and I did, without the help of the 12 steps. Just because they don't work for everyone doesn't that those people are kidding themselves.


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## burn out

just wanted to say dr. drew is wrong, i got off drugs without the 12 steps. also a book that did help me was the easy way to stop drinking by allen carr. i read it six months after i had stopped drinking, so i dont credit it with my recovery but it does lay things out very nicely and helped me see that i had made the right decision. i love how at the end of the book, he just tells you to get on with your life rather than going to AA meetings every day and obsessing about not drinking all the time years after you've gotten sober.


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## Khadijah

One of the things that irritates me most about people who defend AA/NA is that they always assume its that people got a problem with the higher power part of it. 

No, my problem is that its a cult created by a absolutely fucking insane man who did nothing to even try to practice wat he preached, that is completely founded on total opposite, self-contradicting ideas such as taking responsibility, and seeing your role in EVERYTHING, even shit that aint got NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU AT ALL --and then the idea of being totally powerless and helpless and "let go and let god."

i aint got no problems with god. I believe in god, I pray on the regular, and I got faith. My issue aint about the religious tones. My issue aint even the fact that it ABSOLUTELY IS a religious program, and that the fact that veteran members are ENCOURAGED TO LIE ABOUT THAT FACT to newcomers. 

Its just that its a program that teaches the most idiotic, victim-creating philosophy, that lies about its pitiful success rate, and manipulates the truth so that people dont realize that there is actually several studies that shows a HIGHER success rate for people who do NOTHING AT ALL, than people who regularly go to NA. Everything in it is a contradiction, a scam. If you use any measuring scale of how to determine a cult, AA qualifies. If you heard a description of how it works, its steps and rules, and etc, and it was totally vague, general, with nothing identifying it as NA/AA, anybody that heard the description would say, That shit is insane. But if its NA or AA doin it, its acceptable and even this great thing. Even the American Medical Association said about the "big book", that "The book under review is a curious combination of organizing propaganda and religious exhortation. It is in no sense a scientific book...The one valid thing in the book is the recognition of the seriousness of addiction to alcohol. Other than this, the book has no scientific merit or interest." 

I also want to suggest reading "the orange papers" like one of the posters above me also suggested to anybody who dont know the true background of how the 12 steps got started and wants to learn more about just how fucked up and twisted the "fellowship" of ____ Anonymous is.

Also, the fact that there is groups for things that aint got NOTHING to do with personal choices or activities, such as INCEST SURVIVORS ANONYMOUS, that STILL teaches its members to find out how THEIR ACTIONS fed into this shit happening to them, that wants them to follow these same exact steps for a person addicted to alcohol or drugs , is straight up, seriously sick. The idea of the steps, PERIOD, whether it applies to drugs or alcohol, or "co-dependent relationships" or ANYTHING, is the thing I got a problem with. 

And its so easy for the defenders of the program to dismiss anybody who criticizes them with the standard replies of, "You are just a AA/NA-basher" "you just werent willing to work the program and REALLY work the steps, and just becuz it didnt work for you the problem is with YOU and not the program", or "You are misunderstanding the true teachings of the program"  and all these other excuses for why that criticizing aint valid and dont even deserve a response or a defense. Its just dismissing it, "you must be a very angry person, you obviously aint ready for the things the program teaches" and so on. I could go on forever if i wanted to try and list all the things that I have heard from members when I said somethin negative about the program.

The discomfort and total tension in the room that you could seriously cut with a knife, while I would bring up my problems with the program when i had to "share" since i got sent to mandatory meetings by my PO, was always funny to me. I played along for a while but after a certain amount of time I just couldnt take it no more and started speakin my mind. People really hated that shit, I mean it made them SERIOUSLY uncomfortable, and the couple times that a person would share after me and say "you know wat? I been scared to say this all along, but i AGREE with her! Shes right! Why DO we believe that?" and so on, was always happy moments for me, becuz if i could at least help one other person to have the courage to speak up against that shit it was worth havin everybody else think Im a asshole.


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## burn out

lacy k i usually dont read your entire posts because they are too long but whenever i do read them you say so many things that i agree with. i have no problem with the higher power aspect of AA/NA either. what i have a problem with is the closed mindedness, ignorance and outright refusal to look at things from a different perspective that i feel is part of AA/NA culture. and im not saying everyone who goes there is like that, i just feel like the community as a whole does have those tendencies.


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## Wizzle

Lacey, don't take my opinion of clean as an offence. I guess it's all semantics... When you're doing good you're doing good, it seems to me you are. Yesterday I had a little chat about AA with my addiction therapist and she said it is the best option for some. But, like mentioned before, it is probably best for the most hardcore addicts and other people who need strict rules. She also mentioned a psychopath she knew. This dude bettered his life with religion. I guess some people without their "own" values need dogma to funtion properly.


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## Khadijah

Yea I didnt take offense Wizzle, I was curious tho.

I think that AA and NA work for people who , straight up, need to be told wat to do. They need those rules to listen to. The idea that if you do every single thing they tell you, to the T, and blindly accept it all and have faith that it will work, is real comforting to many people.

And of course some of the die-hard rabid followers of the steps end up bein "clean"--Its all in their head--They BELIEVE that with the STEPS they can become clean, so it becomes possible. They believe they cannot get clean on their own. So, they fail. But they believe they can get clean with the program, so they are more likely to succeed with it. The teachings of NA can very much be a self fulfilling prophecy like I said and a few other ppl also said before. 

And also like I said before, the idea of Dumbo the elephant and the magic feather. The program is that magic feather, and they really believe they cant do it, without that. The ability to get clean is inside everyone, but they believe that THEY cannot get clean without the program. So, there fore they cant. Simple. We all know the power that the mind got over the body and your life. Believe certain things and they become possible, the power of mental devotion and discipline makes some amazing things happen. But NA teaches the LIMITS of your self discipline and abilities. So thats why the devoted NA members believe and repeat to everybody that you cant do it without the program--Because for THEM, they truly CANT. BUt they dont realize its only becuz they are limiting themself not to. Thats the whole mental trick of the program.

They already want to get clean, they are already open to getting clean, its just "Tell me the things i gotta do to get there and I will do them." They aint capable of doin this on their own and need the program to lean on, to direct them and instruct them how to act in every situation.

Havin a set of strict, very clear rules to apply to EVERYTHING in your life is a very comforting reassuring thing to some people whose life has been full of chaos and struggle. It attracts them becuz they can take the pressure off themself and "let the program work", etc. Their belief that the PROGRAM is the thing that will get and keep them clean, is why they stay clean, and they cant comprehend that the ability is really coming from within themself.

When you take away the program (Meaning, they cant get access to a meeting, etc) thats why you see em start flippin a shit. "Wat am i gonna DO!?!?!" "Where am i gonna GO!?!?!?" With that "magic feather" gone, they doom themself to fail becuz they truly believe that its impossible to do it without.

I dont agree that its for "hardcore" or "not hardcore" addicts. The degree of it aint got nothing to do with it. 

I do believe that it is much, much easier for somebody who sniffed dope for 5 months and got caught by his parents and decides to get clean, to succeed at it, than it is for a 5 or 10 year addict who been shooting up dope since they were a teenager, who been arrested, locked up, on the streets, kicked out of places, in and out of detoxes, etc.

Thats very true, so in that case I guess you might be able to say that a non-"hardcore" addict might have a easier time doing it without NA-BUT they would have a easier time, PERIOD, you feel me? And NA believes that regardless of your amount of use you are still a addict if you feel like one, so that kid who sniffed one bag of dope a day for less than 6 months, needs their program and is just as hopeless and powerless as the 30 year heroin junkie.

Anyways, I think its just more fair to say that it works for the people who need to get told how to live, who need the rules, Who are tired of making the decisions and just want somebody else to tell them for a little while. 

Becuz the logic is, "well, if MY thinking got me in this position, maybe its time to let someone else do the thinking for me and give it a chance to get out of this position." 

So, they give up all that silly "willpower" stuff and let go , and follow the steps and rules without no hesitation. Ready to do any and everything they are told. They believe that as long as they follow, they will be healed. 

And a person might be just as "Hard core" of a addict as that guy, but cant deal with the idea of not thinking for him/herself. 

The program or who it works for really aint nothing to do with how severe your problem is and got way more to say about the type of person you are and how much you willing to give up your independence and personal choice for the 'greater good' of living life without drugs, --but the catch is , now you stuck with all this program bullshit.

But for some people that is a fulfilling life. It just aint for me. Im happy where Im at, and Im glad I did it and was able to do it with my own determination, with the love of my family and my own trust that, eventually, everything will work out. And i feel even better that I can say that I did it, and it wasnt the "program" that I have to thank.

There aint nothing at all wrong with bein humble. I think its a quality that more people need. Its a wonderful and all too rare thing.

How ever I aint down with the idea of not taking no credit for your success, of that false humility that you only repeat becuz you been taught to say it, "I can only thank the program and my higher power. I had nothing to do with this. I was the one who got myself in the position of needin to be saved. My higher power and the 12 steps got me out of it. So please, It wasnt me." And so on. 

Thats all for now, Im workin on writing less of a book everytime I post in this thread. 

And thanks for your comment burn out.


----------



## DexterMeth

_


lacey k said:



			I didnt make it all the way thru the whole article becuz I just aint beat for hearing the story of how it started, etc, all over again but I will force myself to. I got to the part of Bill W in the hotel and having a trip-vision of god n all that and skimmed thru the rest.

They dont know how AA works becuz it aint "AA" thats working, its the people who brainwash themselfs with the philosophies of it. And Dr Drew can suck a fucking dick, Oh, "If a person dont want to to the 12 steps they dont want to get better" FUCK YOU, You ignorant piece of pig shit. How insulting can you be to the idea of personal responsibility?

I despise the idea that you cant stay clean without NA. That you "need" meetings to keep you clean, TWENTY FUCKIN YEARS after you stopped using. That you got so little strenth of your own that every single moment of your day is still a risk filled situation that could send you flying back into the pit of addiction.

You become a slave to meetings. Replacing your addiction to drugs/alcohol with addiction to the program. People eat live and sleep the program, the amount they are obsessed with it is straight up scary to me honestly. They are like programmed robots brainwashed to all think the same shit, to believe all this shit, and its the only way that they can stay clean ,is to believe it.

If it keeps em clean, good for them. If it works for them I am happy for them and it must not be such a bad thing for THEM. But shit, all I see after the hundreds of meetings that Ive wasted my nights at, is a bunch of people whose lives are still about drugs, every second of them. Except now, they about NOT using drugs instead of using them. 

You cant just be a person who got off drugs. You cant just be you. You got to be you, ADDICT. You got to be a addict who is ALWAYS at risk, FOR-EVARRRR. That after 30 years without gettin high, you are still at as much risk as u were the day you quit, of relapsing. That its like this monster hidden around every corner, that you are WEAK and you CANT fight it without the program, that you CANT do it alone, that you aint CAPABLE of stayin clean, unless you do this that and the third. You GOT to do this, you GOT to get a sponsor, you GOT to go to 90 meetings in 90 days, you GOT to work the steps, all this garbage. 

Well how bout this, i been clean 9 months and I aint been to a meeting in like 5 months. I actually never even went to collect my 6 months keychain, OR my 9 months one, becuz I got so sick of the meetings that I seriously just couldnt do it no more. Just sittin there listening to these people delude themselfs over and over, repeating this same cult-like shit time after time just got to be too much for me.

I aint denying that for some people it has helped them alot. but as a person who is a independent thinker who likes to do shit myself, think shit thru myself, there is just so many gaping holes in their philosophies, so much contradiction, so much shit thats just ass-backwards, that its totally useless to me. I really cant do it. That group-think shit, the mindless agreeing, man its just scary to me. its really like a cult IMO. 

Is that really the life you want to life, yea , off drugs, but terrified? Scared that every day, any day, you could just fall off and start using and end up dead? That your addiction is a living thing thats like, scheming and plotting ways to win you back? That you should drive 50 minutes out of your way to work every morning , so you dont pass a bar? That you are SO FUCKING WEAK that even driving past a street corner that you copped dope at ONCE can totally throw you off balance and send you right back to the needle like a choice-less zombie? That you NEED to go to a meeting every day, becuz THATS wats keeping you clean--not your own will, not your strentgh, not your heart as your desire to stay clean gets stronger, not your wisdom and your intelligence that helps guide you, not you, but "the program"? That you will always forever be an addict, so even 60 years after you quit you still need to go to meetings and work the steps? That you will never, ever change, never be stronger, never be "cured" or "recovered", that recovery is forever and you are just doomed to always be that way til the day you die?

I aint down with the powerlessness. I aint powerless. If i was powerless, I would not have been able to quit using when i realized that i really, truly, absolutely HAD TO or i was goin straight to state prison. if i was powerless, I never could have used around my probation schedule, gettin high on the day of my piss test and the day after ,and leavin 5 days in between to clean up so i could piss clean for my PO visit a week later. If i was powerless, I woulda just started binging out like crazy every time i got a couple bundles and not stopped using til it was gone, nevermind probation. if i was powerless, I never coulda copped those 3 bundles and just left them sittin there,  hidden in my closet, for 4 days while i laid there sick as a dog, hurtin, miserable, depressed, wantin to die while I kicked, and not even touched them, not even considered touching them until after i passed my piss test. 

If I was powerless, I woulda needed NA to get clean like I been. If i was powerless, i never coulda turned my life around like I did. I aint powerless, I took back my power that I had gave up, lost a hold on, and forgot that I had while i was usin. I got a choice, and when i was buried in the suffering of my addiction I couldnt exercise that choice, i coudlnt hold on tight enough to make a solid choice and stick to it, but I got it back eventually. I didnt go to rehab. I didnt go to NA. I didnt do jack-shit, except get on my Methadone, and start some long, hard thinking. 

Soon enough, i lost that obsession with heroin. it took months, but it happened. It stopped bein this idea, buried in my heart , living inside of me, this passionate, destructive, insane love, wanting, craving, and just gradually turned into another idea just like anything else. It went from bein that crazy lover who you have ups and downs with, the person where its so intense that one minute you want to kill each other and the next you are furiously fucking, who you would kill for, and also want to kill. And became that boring guy/girl down the street that you really dont know much or feel nothing for, just a bland aquaintance. 

Heroins grip dropped off my heart & my mind, it let go and became just another thing. Not the obssessive lust for the drug of the addict but the take it or leave it attitude of the casual recreational drug user who has fun once in a while and then gets back to 'normal' life the majority of the time. that insane, doomed love affair with dope turned into something totally lame and boring, like it was just a kind of uninteresting co-worker instead of a secret crush that burns so hot and bright inside of you that you drive yourself crazy thinking of them. 

And once that crazy obsession ended, I was able to do dope , pick it up, and get a little high. Have some fun, and then forget about it for another couple months. Without none of the "oh shit, its gone? i got to get more, just one more shot, just get high for one more day" shit. Without nothing really, no feelings of disappointment when it was over and i had to go back to the daily methadone grind. It was a fun thing, and when it was done it was done. and thats all there was to it. I wasnt fantasizing, thinking about when I will be able to have it again, just living for that day when I get to boot another shot. It wasnt even really in the back of my mind.

I was too busy livin my life, a normal life, not a ex drug addict life. I dont WANT to identify myself as a fuckin ADDICT, i want to be ME. If i aint using the drug no more, if my life stopped being about this drug then why should I still make every fuckin moment be about avoiding it, which is the entire focus of the NA/AA programs? Is it really true that every single person who was ever addicted, will never, EVER be able to have a normal life again? That they are doomed to a life of NA picnics, NA barbecues ,NA sports games, NA meetings, NA community projects, NA this and fuckin that all day forever. That NA is the only "safe zone" that you can trust. That NA is the only one for you. NA will take care of you, NA will keep you safe and happy. You need NA. You cant live without NA. Trust NA and put your faith in NA and you will be ok.  

It sounds alot to me like a drug addict if you replace NA with Heroin or Alcohol, etc. 

If that life is wat being clean is about,.....Fuck bein clean.

But it aint GOT to be like that, becuz you aint gotta listen to their bullshit-ass lies and insane mind-warping philisophies.

But of course , according to them, that only means that you "dont really want to/aint really ready to get clean." 8( 

I could go on forever and ever about this and I know i already been goin off for a while now, so Ima wrap it up but seriously,  it aint no suprise to me that they say they aint got no idea how or even if the program works, becuz there aint nothing to it except a persons willingness to delude themself and listen to wat they are told, and their ability to totally devote their life to that. If you can do that, the program will most definately keep you clean and off drugs, but i would much rather do it in a way that actually leaves me with a life that got more to it than being obsessed with the program and not using. How are you really recovered, really free, if you cant even live nothing like a normal life and it all gotta be about not using? if every move you make gotta still be about that, then you really aint recovered at all, you just hiding from the real world and that aint no way to live, its the life of the addict just without the drugs. That aint no way to be.
		
Click to expand...

_
HAHHAHA, Lacey I love you girl.  Fucking props


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## CaptainAmerica

Man, AA is mad lame.

I was forced to attend 5 meetings a week for the last year of my childhood life (17). And the only thing I found that it does is
1. Drill into your head that you are an AA term, "An Addict"
2. Switch your obsession/addiction to AA instead of drugs
3. Only works for people who truly want to get sober, and are willing to do ANYTHING,

Get sober if you want to, not because what other people tell you or how you label it, take a look at your life, and if you think a change needs to be made, then do it. Otherwise quit whining and stay dry or go get drunk.

Remember everyone,
"True Disciprine comes from within"
"When you life revolves around staying away from a certain thing, that thing still controls your life"  Ohhhh!


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## lisha76

I was forced to go to AA meetings back when i was 20, and yeah, I thought they were just a brain washed bunch of clean drunks. Fast forward now, I have this point of view. When you have burnt bridges of relationships, have not enough  insurance for more than 14 days of rehab and need to keep your job to support your self. Its not such a bad thing. Some people literally "have to stay sober" Its free, always available and people genionly want you to be sober. there isnt a easy equation for soberty. Non at all. Feeling hopeless and helpless can get you in far worst places than a AA meeting.


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## shrimps2004

its g-d how how u perceive him to be not like religion.. it does work 53 days sober.


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## evilthree

It's replacement/management therapy.  People are convinced without meetings and the program, they are doomed.  It also forms social networks galore.  I've talked to many a "recovering addict", and it seems all they do is live recovery.  Their friends are recovery, their activities are recovery, it becomes their drug replacement.  For people involved in treatment, or say people whos lives were not completely centered around drugs, why put them thru an intensive therapy?

As said, someone whos a hardcore heroin addict isn't going to end up with a needle in their arm bein around people drinking and smoking.  I have been accosted by many a 12 stepper from AA/NA because I have a beer at a party.  Not to mention smokin reduces cravings for me.  Recently I heard a programmed person say they flushed vicodin, vics that were PRESCRIBED for a toothache.  I have come across several who say medicinally necessary meds are ok, but some take it to the extreme

I find it cultish because of the adherence to the program, and near worship of Bill Wilson and Dr Bob.  People literally act as if these people are saints, some kind of heroes of arresting addiction.  They tend not to mention any of Wilson's use of Belladonna or LSD in later life.  It plays off peoples need for social interaction and structure, especially when many are at a bottom.  People doing the program right are pretty much encouraged to ditch everyone, even if their friends may be solely weed smokers or occasional social drinkers.  And this whole no willpower concept?  Drugs are inanimate objects.  A bag of heroin or a line of coke will not jump down your throat, or shoot itself in your vein.  

I personally have more fun doing drugs in any capacity then being around the program or its people, and I'd rather be alone and independent than feel like some cog in a cult


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## donnie080208

^ touche , touche evilthree.  Id rather drink/take junk and have sober periods by my own willpower than be abstinate with no "slips" (till i die) in a 12 step program.


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## Khadijah

Good post evilthree. I agree. Its just a replacement, one for another.

I asked that once at a meeting and got a very angry meeting leader refusing to answer the question. They totally shut down any and all discussion that dont follow with their policies and beliefs. They dont even allow it to let people understand better. Any group that wants to shut down the learning of its followers, and try and stop their desire to learn more and understand it better , aint really serving the needs of its members.


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## dragonslayer428

AA has saved my life.  Don't knock it if you are not genetically an alcoholic.  I found it almost impossible to stop drinking until I entered those rooms.  If you have the disease of alcoholism (NOT a heavy drinker....I mean an ALCOHOLIC...there is a HUGE difference) you may be able to put a few months together of sobriety without AA, but statistics show that you will _more than likely_ fall back to drinking unless you give your will and your life over to the care of G-d, go to meetings and work the steps.  I've never met a true alcoholic (someone that drinks every day in excess and can't stop after that first drink) just stop on their own.  If they can do that, more than likely, they are just a heavy drinker and not a true alcoholic.


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## momo3

I got sober from heroin 5.5 years ago. Man, its flown by. Today is my first visit back to this forum.

AA helped me dramatically for a few years, but then I got out of it.

ITs very clique-ey and people one-up each other on how much they are invovled. Its kinda weird how mcuh peole get into  it. Very weird actually.

HOWEVER, I will not bash it. Its a great thing in many ways. Its actually pretty open, and not church-like too much.

Its about as open as an organized group of people can get ,


I think AA helps people and I think ripping on it and doomsaying it is kind of stupid. If it helps people, so be it.

Yes, its fun to think of it as a bunch of drunk losers who bitch and moan, and it often is, but, man, it helps a shitload of people... and   it helped me, early on.. but now I dont feel like I am too into it any more or need it.


------------


I am editing this thread as I skimmed back a bit and read a previous post.

It inspired more thought.

I also HATE how AA makes you SAY you're an alcoholic, even if you went in for drugs.

I honestly do thin I could be an alcoholic if I went on a desert island with no drugs on it.

But my body prefers drugs far before alcohol, and my poison was certainly drugs.

I never once thought "i love alcohol", but I think I've personally thought "I loved __________" with many other drugs, primarily marijuana and opiates.

So yes, I've had NO issues being around drinkers, and actually enjoy being with my friends when they get drunk.


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## nearjat

Most AA meeting I've been to totally permit saying "I'm an addict" if you dont like the alcoholic label, which is mostly out of tradition. 

Lacey I've loved most what you've had to say. Pretty much speaking my thoughts the last few weeks. I've been thinking about using MDMA and all my AA/NA brainwashing made me honestly frightened to do so, even though half of me feels very comfortable with it and logically nothing bad will happen. 

AA has helped me socially a ton though.


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## Pimp Lazy

Has anyone mentioned what is called "transfer of dependence"?  You see it in born agains and AA/NA/etc.A.  That's what it is to a huge degree.  It sucks.  I've been to NA with my girlfriend who was court ordered and was getting harassed by shitty people, but it sucks.  I talked there but I never said, "I'm an addict."  Because I'm not.  I've been addicted to things, but I've stopped.  It teaches a mindset and a dogma that is not in keeping with reality and doesn't break dependent mindsets.  It substitutes to a large degree.  It also gives some people who really need it a sense of community and stability.  I wish those were things that our society could give in the form of more public spaces, public spaces where you can hang out that don't cost money, and a more friendly general atmosphere, but maybe that's too ambitious.  Well Happy 4th mofuckers.  Have a good one.

Peace,
PL


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## dethkon

(Bolding is mine)


phrozen said:


> But how effective is AA? That seemingly simple question has proven maddeningly hard to answer. Ask an addiction researcher a straightforward question about AA’s success rate and you’ll invariably get a distressingly vague answer. Despite thousands of studies conducted over the decades, no one has yet satisfactorily explained why some succeed in AA while others don’t, or even what percentage of alcoholics who try the steps will eventually become sober as a result.
> 
> A big part of the problem, of course, is AA’s strict anonymity policy, which makes it difficult for researchers to track members over months and years. It is also challenging to collect data from chronic substance abusers, a population that’s prone to lying. But researchers are most stymied by the fact that AA’s efficacy cannot be tested in a randomized experiment, the scientific gold standard.
> 
> “If you try to randomly assign people to AA, you have a problem, because AA is free and is available all over the place,” says Alcohol Research Group’s Kaskutas. “Plus, some people will just hate it, and you can’t force them to keep going.” In other words, given the organization’s open-door membership policy, it would be nearly impossible for researchers to prevent people in a control group from sneaking off to an AA meeting and thereby tainting the data. On the other hand, many subjects would inevitably loathe AA and drop out of the study altogether.
> 
> *Another research quandary is how to account for the selection effect. AA is known for doing a better job of retaining drinkers who’ve hit rock bottom than those who still have a ways to fall. But having totally destroyed their lives, the most desperate alcoholics may already be committed to sobriety before ever setting foot inside a church basement. If so, it might be their personal commitment, rather than AA, that is ultimately responsible for their ability to quit.*
> 
> As a result of these complications, AA research tends to come to wildly divergent conclusions, often depending on an investigator’s biases. *The group’s “cure rate” has been estimated at anywhere from 75 percent to 5 percent, extremes that seem far-fetched. Even the most widely cited (and carefully conducted) studies are often marred by obvious flaws. A 1999 meta-analysis of 21 existing studies, for example, concluded that AA members actually fared worse than drinkers who received no treatment at all.* The authors acknowledged, however, that many of the subjects were coerced into attending AA by court order. Such forced attendees have little shot at benefiting from any sort of therapy—it’s widely agreed that a sincere desire to stop drinking is a mandatory prerequisite for getting sober.



Here's the problem: *Confirmation bias.* If you are a drunk, and you quit using AA, then you are someone the program has "cured." However, if you are a drunk, and you manage to quit without using AA, then you _never were a true Alcoholic in the first place._

You'll never get a true "success rate" because of the way "Alcoholic" is defined in AA uses circular logic: if you're powerless over Alcohol, you are an Alcoholic. If you are powerless over Alcohol, but overcome your addiction without the 12 steps, then you were never powerless, were you? 8)

That said, I do agree with the article that it works for some people. So I support that.


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## rachamim

12 Step Philosophy is a croc of shi*. I am sincerely glad for those who gain benefit from it but as Lacey correctly pointed out, in not so many words, it is a cult and like any cult is depends on "brain washing." Whether 1 sells shi**y flowers in rundown airports or instead sits in a church hall coming close to masturbating over watered down Oxford rehash it is all 1 in the same.

There are some, perhaps a good many who will say that the end justifies the means but in honesty, the Nazis said the same thing.

My biggest problem with 12 Step is not in its Cult-like blind acceptance but of its negation of the physical aspect of addiction. In the 1930s people like "Bill" had no idea what was causing their insatiable need. While Addiction Science is still in its infancy it has progressed enough to know that there are some very real physiological issues and that "willpower" just won't cut it.

12 Step is selling a faulty bill of goods. If some want to accept it, go for it but their denigration of others who are not as willing to blindly follow an almost 100 year old  rationale is quite revealing as to the true nature of the philosophy.


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## rachamim

Aaaah, "Dr Drew," the self serving windbag who like the whore he is has made a career out of showcasing the misery of others. Paying well known addicts to sit in his luxyry rehab so Middle America can guffaw over those "dirty junkies."

Listening to a man who has never gone near an opiate/opioid sit and pontificate over what that addict is doing wrong is just naseuating. At times like that I get that fantasy fron "French Connection II."

Juxtaposing Dr Drew over Gene Hackman's character, seeing Drew slowly become addicted to Marseillese heroin, begging for another shot until he can do nothing but salivate over the "evil drug" and his fantasy about "willpower" goes the way of his 3rd rate call in show ("Loveline").

Ahhhhh the evil Rachamim hahahaha....


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## paranoid android

rachamim said:


> Aaaah, "Dr Drew," the self serving windbag who like the whore he is has made a career out of showcasing the misery of others. Paying well known addicts to sit in his luxyry rehab so Middle America can guffaw over those "dirty junkies."
> 
> Listening to a man who has never gone near an opiate/opioid sit and pontificate over what that addict is doing wrong is just naseuating. At times like that I get that fantasy fron "French Connection II."
> 
> Juxtaposing Dr Drew over Gene Hackman's character, seeing Drew slowly become addicted to Marseillese heroin, begging for another shot until he can do nothing but salivate over the "evil drug" and his fantasy about "willpower" goes the way of his 3rd rate call in show ("Loveline").
> 
> Ahhhhh the evil Rachamim hahahaha....



 Ive actually watced a few of his shows while i was too dopesick to get out of bed and they made me nearly vomit with rage. The guy does not have a clue and he has this totally ignorant notion of how to treat addicts. Not that i think he does it for anything other then the money mind you. He talks as if he has actually been addicted to well any damn drug. Id say the hardest drug that twat has ever been addicted to is caffiene.

 He is just totally ignorant and people are actually stupid enough to believe that he knows what he's talking about. Everytime ive actually watched any portion of his show ive though about how fitting it would be to shoot him full of all the hydromorphone, heroin or fentanyl he could handle for about a month then cold turkey the sucker. Perhaps giving him all the sufentanil he could handle then making him go cold turkey would teach the prick a lesson in manners.


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## Fanch

Dr. Drew... hm, am i thinking of the right dr. guy here?  we're not talking about the so-called "Dr." on Oprah's shows who really isn't a medical doctor, are we?

because I've seen dr. drew deal with a lot of different people... and he obviously doesn't know everything, clearly he's never been down the path of real addiction himself, sure... but he seems like an OK guy.  he sounds like he offers practical, reasonable advice.  I'm not sure I can ever remember him being actively judgemental about a person's situation... beyond saying the blatantly obvious after a session, you know like .. looking towards the camera after a girl leaves the room and saying "Yea she doesn't stand a chance here... but, moving on!"

anyways when he was referring to the 12 steps thing, I don't think he was endorsing it. at all.  in fact, he said right before that he simply could not think of any other system that has so much success, for whatever reason.  He's obviously not a 12-step advocate.. it's not like he tells patients on his shows to surrunder to a higher power and blame their drug problems on that. i think he just meant to say that, hey, for whatever reason, these 12 steps seem to work pretty well. and if you're not willing to throw yourself behind a plan as solid and as sturdy as the 12 step plan, you're not even really trying. 

which sounds like pragmatic, practical advice to me, again.  to me, anyways.

ps. let it be known that while i think AA is a load of garbage and I'm one of the folks for whom it could never ever work, I think it is strange how it has so much success with so many people.... so that's why I read this thread (almost) all the way through!


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## Khadijah

Fanch said:


> Dr. Drew... hm, am i thinking of the right dr. guy here?  we're not talking about the so-called "Dr." on Oprah's shows who really isn't a medical doctor, are we?
> 
> because I've seen dr. drew deal with a lot of different people... and he obviously doesn't know everything, clearly he's never been down the path of real addiction himself, sure... but he seems like an OK guy.  he sounds like he offers practical, reasonable advice.  I'm not sure I can ever remember him being actively judgemental about a person's situation... beyond saying the blatantly obvious after a session, you know like .. looking towards the camera after a girl leaves the room and saying "Yea she doesn't stand a chance here... but, moving on!"
> 
> anyways when he was referring to the 12 steps thing, I don't think he was endorsing it. at all.  in fact, he said right before that he simply could not think of any other system that has so much success, for whatever reason.  He's obviously not a 12-step advocate.. it's not like he tells patients on his shows to surrunder to a higher power and blame their drug problems on that. i think he just meant to say that, hey, for whatever reason, these 12 steps seem to work pretty well. and if you're not willing to throw yourself behind a plan as solid and as sturdy as the 12 step plan, you're not even really trying.
> 
> which sounds like pragmatic, practical advice to me, again.  to me, anyways.
> 
> ps. let it be known that while i think AA is a load of garbage and I'm one of the folks for whom it could never ever work, I think it is strange how it has so much success with so many people.... so that's why I read this thread (almost) all the way through!




NA and AA actually DO NOT have a high success rate at all. There have been studies that show that people who DO NOTHING AT ALL have actually had higher success rates than NA/AA members.

The shit about it helped so many people etc, is bullshit that the program spreads to make itself look good.

After one year, 95% of AA meeting attenders will have stopped going.

So you have at BEST a 5% success rate which is impossible becuz we know that out of all the members who been there for that year, not all of them been clean for the whole year. So out of that 5% you got to minus out all the people who used or relapsed during that year time, which makes the success rate even lower. A less than 5% success rate IS NOT the "highest success rate of any program." It aint a high success rate at all period.

The way that the 12 step groups presents themself, is that they are so effective, etc. They "cherry pick" the facts about their group. They dont COUNT the people who leave the program, they dont count the people who relapse, they dont count none of that. Basically wat they do is they count the members who are clean and been clean for however long "succeeded" and then they use THOSE people to represent their program, by saying that only THOSE people are the ones who "truly followed the program." you get it?

If you dont stay clean, then you didnt follow the program in their eyes. there fore, they do not count you.

By only counting the people who "succeed" they are able to give the idea that they got this great high sucess rate. It aint really like that in reality at all.

say I have a group of runners that i am a coach of. I teach that if you follow my training, you will win the race every time and succeed. But only if you follow my program and do everything I tell you to.

so, I send my runners out to a race where you place from 1st-5th, so there are 5 winners.

They run and only one of them places in the winning 1-5th place. the rest of them run slow and are like last place.

Usually you would say that out of all my runners only 1 of them was successful, so i have a pretty bad success rate.

But the thing is, I already said that you aint really one of "my" runners if you dont follow my program exactly. If you HAD followed my program, you WOULD WIN. So, if you didnt win, it must mean that you didnt follow my program. there fore, you aint really one of my runners anyways, becuz MY runners follow MY program.

Since my one runner did have a winning place in my race, and the rest of them did not, that means that the only runner who I count as one of my runners is the winner.

Since I only have one runner, and he won , I have a 100% success rate.

That is how the NA/AA groups twist their statistics to make it look like they more sucessful than they are and like the recovery rates are way, way higher than they are in reality.

Also, I totally disagree the shit you said about how its just solid pragmatic advice to tell a person that if they wont do the steps they dont want to get clean.

that is fucking bullshit, I mean for him to say that, not that you are talkin bull.

You CAN GET CLEAN WITHOUT THE STEPS, ABSOLUTELY, AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DO.

To act like the 12 steps is the only program that is worth trying, and that if you aint willing to use the program you aint ready to get clean, is absolutely supporting the 12 steps.  Its saying that the 12 steps is the only worth while solution and thing worth trying.

And becuz it AINT true that it is so effective, that means he AINT giving helpful pragmatic advice. It aint true that it has a great success rate and that 'its the only program that works so well' and all that. He is recommending a program that has a high high failure rate and brainwashes people into self-fulfilling failure by teaching them they are powerless to control their drug use and that the program is the only thing that can keep them clean. Once they miss a meeting or watever happens, "oh well, if i dont go to meetings then i cant stay clean. i dont have the power to do it on my own, so that means that i will use drugs/drink." And then they do. 

Its extremely biased and ignorant to act like the 12 step programs are the most successful or most valid path to take when you want to get off drugs. Straight up it just simply aint fuckin true. 

and to tell people who ARE truly willing to get clean and DO want to, who are ASKING FOR YOUR HELP, that you cant give it to them becuz you aint willing to go to a program that requires you to be a brainwashed cult member and go against everything you believe, that tells you that YOU CANNOT GET CLEAN, but that only the PROGRAM can get you clean, is straight up hurting people. they have a ABSOLUTELY valid desire to get clean and stop using. Just becuz they wont do NA dont mean that they aint really willing to get clean. And you can most definately without a doubt get clean without it, so to treat somebdoy like that is just fuckin ridiculous. I got clean without that bullshit, and all i heard from counselors and people every step of the way was that if i wouldnt go in the program i was never gonna make it, bla bla bla and here I fuckin am, so I feel like its pretty much disgusting the shit that "dr" drew does and preaches. its straight up fucking garbage, and people dont know no better becuz they been blinded by the 12 step groups self serving lies and dont realize just how horrible and unsuccessful of a program it really is.


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## EoTorv

AA members claim near universal success by discounting every failure as a lack of effort on an individual's part or an inability to be rigorously honest. The constant testimonials have many people bamboozled. When testimonials are used as evidence for cancer cures or get-rich-quick schemes many media sources will point out testimonials and endorsements are weak and unreliable evidence. I don't know why twelve step programs and their allied treatment industry get a free pass on everything.


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## StaffWriter

To those who get some satisfaction from going to NA/AA meetings, that's great for you. Keep going. But I really believe the majority of us don't get much help from it. From my experience, I find the "higher power" deal to be a problem and the whole program is just very, very different from what I am accustomed to. Sometimes I feel kinda bad about myself and I'll go to a meeting just to feel like there is a chance that I will get better. Then when I leave, I feel like the biggest fool. Sometimes getting together with people who have been in the same situation as me can help (usually sometime before or after the meeting, lol). Regardless, I don't get much help from the meetings. Looking at relapse rates and such doing make me feel at better But then again, they want you to buy books, give money at meetings and spread the lies. If it helps you, great! Great for ya NA/AA hooray! But when it doesnt work for some of us, don't get down on us. My brother does that to me and all it does is trigger guilt and anxiety. Some of us just learn different ways. Regardless of the way you learn (NA/AA, on your own, self-taper, etc) I hope you get clean or accomplish whatever it is that you want to do.


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## Levvytation

raver2008 said:


> Pretty interesting article. A few ppl I know are trying to get me to attend meetings with them because they work so great for them, but I dont know if I even belive in god so I cant see it helping me any. Are most group meetings all basically the same in which some sort of god or whatever is what there based around?



Apparently it's more about just accepting that there's something greater than yourself running the show, doesn't have to be God or Allah or whatever...

My sister still goes to AA meetings even though its 5 yrs since she was on the booze in a bad way. She has the odd drink now & again nowadays and I do mean _just_ the odd one. She's made a few good friends there, & from what she tells me its mellow. It definitely helped her.

Breaking the rules a bit here...Roy Keane attends the same meeting my sis goes.


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## NewPhone

This thread is wack and a lot of supportive replies give 12 step meetings a bad rep.  AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion - we don't tell people how great the program is etc and then try and impose it on them or explain why they need it, since we don't label people as alcoholics.  If they see what we are like sober and want what we have they can have it by "taking the steps we took which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery.". As far as methadone and bupe go, good luck.  I tried bupe maintenance and know multiple people that did methadone and it didn't work for me.  Every single person I knew on the methadone program expressed regret in getting on methadone when they realized how much harder it is to get off of methadone it is than to gett off of heroin.  Also, let it be known that AA and the 12 steps are not the only way to recover.  There is Rational Recovery, etc.  If you can drink or shoot dope like a gentleman, my hat is off to you, but I can't.  I find it highly amusing that people who care so little about AA have spend so much time on here telling people how stupid it is.  Why bother?  And finally, how does AA work?  A mystery?  We think not.  There is in fact a whole chapter in the big book respectively titled "how it works".  Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.  Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.  BASICALLY it is not one thing that works, it is the program as a whole.  "Half measures availed us nothing".  I actually know somebody who, being a bottomless addict and drunk, worked the program to prove it doesn't work and guess what?  It worked.  "It works if you work it."


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## Khadijah

Thats great that you can get in parrot mode and just repeat the same old sayings, but they dont replace science. I dont care how many deluded, idol worshipping 12steppers "know" how it works becuz in the book created by their straight-up mentally ill leader there is a chapter that says "How it works." that blind acceptance like "How does it work? Duh! The BIG BOOK SAYS "how it works!" is some typical 12-stepper clone-talk. the book dont replace science. And if a team of scientists choose to try and take a scientific look at the program to understand it better, that aint wack.

I can make up any shit I want and say "this is how it works." That dont mean jack shit and neither does the "how it works" chapter. It aint based on science or any type of scientific understanding of how addiction works, and this article is about SCIENCE and scientific understanding of whether or not the program works. They didnt make it to insult program members who think they know the deal of how it "works" but just to do their job as scientists and explore n understand things better. thats one thing i have always hated about the meetings and its the straight up fear of science and medicine, unless of course it can get twisted around to support their ideas about addiction. 

by the way u show the same attitude that we are all hatin on here becuz you get right in with the "good luck with methadone or bupe, pfft" like the all-knowing mutha fucka that so many people who are long time program clones think they are. maybe that aint the attitude you want to show but its how it comes off. People in the program just love to do the "know better" routine. Smile and shake their heads like "oh, you silly kid....dont worry, youll learn eventually." They always know better than you, they always know the "real" truth, they always got one up on you if you dont believe or agree with the steps in any way they either argue with you til you sick of it, or just get that knowing smile like "you think you can do it your way, but you cant....wait til you come crawlin back to us and then youll understand." 

but Im done , becuz i know its prolly useless to even be replyin int he first place. the fact that all your arguements aint nothing but repeated 12-step slogans shoulda just had me rollin my eyes and passin on instead of botherin to write back but I guess Im a sucka for punishment. For real, when people say that shit and really believe it , repeating these mottos and slogans like they really some deep inspirational shit that will touch the soul, if you just listen--like they are some type of profound-ass shit instead of corny little meeting sayings....like somehow, to just repeat a slogan is a legitimate, valid argument that explains everything....there aint no gettin thru to ppl like that, so my bad for even startin.


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## paranoid android

NewPhone said:


> This thread is wack and a lot of supportive replies give 12 step meetings a bad rep.  AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion - we don't tell people how great the program is etc and then try and impose it on them or explain why they need it, since we don't label people as alcoholics.  If they see what we are like sober and want what we have they can have it by "taking the steps we took which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery.". As far as methadone and bupe go, good luck.  I tried bupe maintenance and know multiple people that did methadone and it didn't work for me.  Every single person I knew on the methadone program expressed regret in getting on methadone when they realized how much harder it is to get off of methadone it is than to gett off of heroin.  Also, let it be known that AA and the 12 steps are not the only way to recover.  There is Rational Recovery, etc.  If you can drink or shoot dope like a gentleman, my hat is off to you, but I can't.  I find it highly amusing that people who care so little about AA have spend so much time on here telling people how stupid it is.  Why bother?  And finally, how does AA work?  A mystery?  We think not.  There is in fact a whole chapter in the big book respectively titled "how it works".  Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.  Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.  BASICALLY it is not one thing that works, it is the program as a whole.  "Half measures availed us nothing".  I actually know somebody who, being a bottomless addict and drunk, worked the program to prove it doesn't work and guess what?  It worked.  "It works if you work it."



You don't label people as alcoholics? They why the fuck do you have to say i am powerless over alcohol, heroin, coke, amphetamines, etc? If thats not labeling as a addict then i don't know what is.

 Also methadone has worked fine for alot of people i know. They don't regret having to go out and score everyday and it keeps them stable. So whats wrong with that? Also if we had programs in place where people could get their heroin at clinics (like that one that was set up in vancouver) there would be even less need for NA and all the stuff related to it.

 Sure it works for some people but rehab, 12 steps and all that stuff isint for me. What the fuck can they do? Tell me something i don't already know about myself 8)


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## EoTorv

NewPhone said:
			
		

> AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion - we don't tell people how great the program is etc and then try and impose it on them or explain why they need it, since we don't label people as alcoholics.


AA & NA both in my area have run TV ads. They are not true to this attraction rather than promotion stuff. For many people it is a program of compulsion due to court orders. Fortunately several courts have ruled there is to much religiosity to continue the practice of compelling people to go to AA.



> I find it highly amusing that people who care so little about AA have spend so much time on here telling people how stupid it is. Why bother?


People attack AA because such a large portion of the public consciousness and resources are oriented towards it. 98% of treatment centers use a 12 step model even though there is no evidence that 12 step programs work. Its very hard to find alternatives and many people are compelled to spend their time and resources engaging this feeble cult. AA members regularly attack approaches like natrexone and acamprosate.  Why? because they actually have some evidence that they work I assume.


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## hobhead

I am acquainted and am friends with some really fine people that are lifetime 12 steppers and do not evangelize about it's merits.
Years ago I was court remanded to find a meeting and attend a certain number of times . I despised the shit . Some people were wrecks that spent any time found telling ''war stories'' .

War stories is AA speak about how badly damaged the drunks life had gotten - whom they fucked over, which alley the passed out in and then mucked up their britches .

What possible good can come of that sort of sad sack story telling ?

The group leader did his best, every bit of his best to climb upon my back by repeatedly telling me that there was no way that I was happy . Others told me that the DT's were just around the corner . No matter how many times that I stated the relatively small quantity of beer that I consumed - these fucktards never let off that I was lying and was going to go into convulsions or some shit .

Drama never sits well with me and if I am in a situation where it is intended that I be central to the nonsense - I am assholes and elbows gone away .

I have stuck my head in a few of these miserable, nonsensical meetings of my own volition and although they were not as spectacularly fucked up as the one that I mentioned above  - they sucked flies off walls.

people sucking sugar candy, sucking really bad coffee in mind boggling amounts, smoking practically a whole pack of stinking cigs - it's just a terribly sorry situation .

Over the years, I have cold turkey stopped a few H habits, put down the booze and stayed sober years .  CT detox is entirely preferable to having to interact with fucktards no matter their intentions be good.

It is often propounded that statistically AA/NA presents to be the most effective at it's mission 
I am not interested enough to bother to research the matter. However my personality, rationality and lack of ambition to blabber to a bunch of sad sacks makes me a small tic against the outfit's statistical success's.


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## Nigiic

In my opinion meetings suck, most of the people who chair, chair about how fucked up they got or old war stories, its like hey we all know how to drink and do drugs. Why don't you just tell us what you've gained from sobriety? Does anyone agree?


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## NewPhone

As far as labeling as alcoholics, in AA only YOU can label yourself an alcohlic. Nobody in the program will tell you that you are an alcoholic.

Nigiic-you don't have to be an old timer to chair.  I have almost 6 months of sobriety, and I could chair meetings if I wanted to.  I've never heard war stories in AA meetings...  The point of AA is to KEEP your sobriety.  Obviously if you put together a few years and relapsed your method didn't work, right?

The AA meeting I call my homegroup has an overwhelming ammount of young people.

To me it sounds like there is a lot of closed minded thinking going on here.

As far as science - there are many phenomenons other than AA that science cannot explain. "Neither does there appear to be any sort of remedy which will make alcoholics of our kind like other people.  Science may one day accomplish this but it hasn't done so yet."

AA is NOTTTTTT a religious program, spirituality and religion are very different.  Many folks do not know what their higher power is.


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## Khadijah

Yo, I got to thank you newphone.you are doin a great job of proving my point about program members bein totally unable to accept any logic that u present to them, and can only reply with more mindless brainwashed shit straight out of "the book."  can you even come up with your own arguements without havin to resort to quoting some lame-ass slogan?


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## paranoid android

Newphone i was a raging alcoholic for years and quit about 7 years back with a few relapses here and there mostly related to certain events in my life. But i drank a beer yesterday at a bar and only had that 1 beer even though i had plenty of cash in my pocket.

 So what do you mean when you say 





> As far as science - there are many phenomenons other than AA that science cannot explain. "Neither does there appear to be any sort of remedy which will make alcoholics of our kind like other people. Science may one day accomplish this but it hasn't done so yet."


 ?


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## NewPhone

Your "logic"?  I haven't heard anything logical come out of your posts.

YOU ARE STILL A DOPEFIEND!  All you did was replace heroin with something else.  You think AA controls me?  Doesn't the methadone clinic control you?  You go every day, over the weekend you get your take home dose.  I don't go to meetings every day.  I go to one-three a week but they help.  I participate in fellowship and in events.

You think you have found a "cure" for your addiction but you haven't.  You are still an opiate dependant person.  Today, I am not.  And trust me, I was shooting just as much heroin as you were.

You know what I think is hilarious?  I can say with complete certainty that I could stay sober without going to meetings longer than you could without going to the clinic.  So in actuality, who has found a better way to get "clean"?  Wait till you come off of the methadone, shooting dope will actually seem like a good idea to you.  The obsession and craving will return.  Me, I lead a "normal" sober life.  I go to work every day and work 40+ hours a week.  I try to talk to my sponser daily and go to a few meetings a week.

Your perception of us living in fear is wrong.  In AA they say fear stands for fuck everything and run or face everything and recover.  I am not in fear.  I know that if I stay sober today, tomorrow I can do the same.  You have such a skewed view on the AA life.  We don't fear drugs and alcohol we just remember the desperation that led us to those rooms.


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## paranoid android

> YOU ARE STILL A DOPEFIEND! All you did was replace heroin with something else.



 You still have to go to meeting and events every week so your still hooked on the AA program.



> I try to talk to my sponser daily and go to a few meetings a week.



How is this much different then getting take homes from the methadone clinic? Just because you arent dependant on a drug does not mean you arent substituting one thing for another. Your still relying on something to get you through the day just like alot of us.

 And who gives a fuck if you work 40+ hours a week? Also define a normal life because normal really is not a definition. Normal for some people is drinking 3 bloody marys for breakfast or shooting heroin first thing in the morning. For others it's being dependant on your sponsor and AA/NA. For other people it's just the ordinary bullshit that goes with everyday life.

 So far your logic does not seem to logical atleast to me.


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## Khadijah

NewPhone said:


> Your "logic"?  I haven't heard anything logical come out of your posts.
> 
> YOU ARE STILL A DOPEFIEND!  All you did was replace heroin with something else.  You think AA controls me?  Doesn't the methadone clinic control you?  You go every day, over the weekend you get your take home dose.  I don't go to meetings every day.  I go to one-three a week but they help.  I participate in fellowship and in events.
> 
> You think you have found a "cure" for your addiction but you haven't.  You are still an opiate dependant person.  Today, I am not.  And trust me, I was shooting just as much heroin as you were.
> 
> You know what I think is hilarious?  I can say with complete certainty that I could stay sober without going to meetings longer than you could without going to the clinic.  So in actuality, who has found a better way to get "clean"?  Wait till you come off of the methadone, shooting dope will actually seem like a good idea to you.  The obsession and craving will return.  Me, I lead a "normal" sober life.  I go to work every day and work 40+ hours a week.  I try to talk to my sponser daily and go to a few meetings a week.
> 
> Your perception of us living in fear is wrong.  In AA they say fear stands for fuck everything and run or face everything and recover.  I am not in fear.  I know that if I stay sober today, tomorrow I can do the same.  You have such a skewed view on the AA life.  We don't fear drugs and alcohol we just remember the desperation that led us to those rooms.



i dont go to a clinic number one. Number two, YOU replaced YOUR addiction with meetings. And you absolutely cannot say jack-fuckin-shit with complete certainty, you know why? Becuz i HAVE had situations where I could not get my methadone, and didnt relapse. And i sure as hell didnt go to no meetings either. So I really aint even tryna hear you assuming-ass shit about people on done cant do it without the done. Why, becuz gettin and stayin clean comes from INSIDE....other shit might help or make it easier but in the end, its on YOU whether you go back to that shit or not, and apparently my will to not go back to that life is a lil stronger than you think since I have successfully made it thru situations like that in the past. Real talk, You dont know the first thing about the shit I am or aint able to do, so dont talk like you do. 

For the record, I am on methadone for a spine injury, not MMT. I aint got insurance, and methadone is way easier to afford than any other pills that are out there. I aint on maintenance treatment. But of course NA believes that if you are somebody who had addiction problems in the past, that you cant be on painkillers becuz its just being in denial that you are still addicted, just substituting one thing for another,and all that bull. The "i know better" shit. They always know better, they always know the real answer, and of course, if you disagreee, you are just in denial. If that aint labeling somebody an addict, I dont know WTF is. 

listen yo, I aint making shit up here. Unlike you, I aint assuming shit, Becuz I been there. i spent time there. I tried to like it i really did. I aint got no problems with a higher power, I believe in god. I aint got no issues with admittin there is a problem, IF there is one really there. I tried to look at the positive, you know just people tryina help other people. But the black and white , yes or no mentality, aint realistic. So just for the record here, I HAVE BEEN A NA MEMBER, participated in the meetings, done all that shit. been to tons of different meetings in different places. They are all the goddamn same, full of people repeatin the same old bullshit and tellin you that you are just lyin to yourself if you dont fall for their idea of you bein an addict.

So I aint misunderstanding or perceiving shit about the program as wrong becuz every example of living in fear is one that I have seen myself at a meeting. the girl who was terriffied, stone cold in brokedown fear, about the fact that she was getting surgery, and the fact that they would be givin her painkillers during the surgery. Talkin about how it will make her relapse. And the NA members tellin her yea, thats right, its a great idea to go thru surgery without anasthesia, becuz a drug that you dont even take by CHOOSING to take it, but is given to you medically becuz of a operation, will TOTALLY cause you to relapse!thats living in fear.

The woman who was in a terrible car accident and can barely walk, talkin about "I dont need those fuckin pills!" Who is obviosuly in excruciating pain, who cannot allow herself to be treated for a problem that is ruining her quality of life, becuz she believes that even if somebody else rations her pills out to her, that it will force her to become a junkie again. Thats living in fear. 

changing your whole fucking structure of your life to avoid certain things that just might maybe remind you of using...Rejecting legitimate medical treatment that improves the quality of your life...becoming so attached to meetings that you feel you "need" them to stay clean....If that aint living in fear I dont know wat the fuck is. I seen this shit day in day out at meetings. People who change their entire structure of their life to avoid something that might possibly remind them in some way of drugs. that is living in fear. Bein unable to live in the world without havin to avoid things, people, etc, that is still lettin the drug control your life. Your life is still all about drugs. Its just about not doing the drugs. 

Believing that you WILL go back , that you WILL relapse if you just have that "one", that is living in fear.

I wouldnt trade the success that i have had with leavin my addiction behind for all the world. I am happier than I ever been in my whole life. That love for dope, that obsession, is long gone. i have been without methadone and managed without relapsing into addiction. I have even used, "just once" and not went back into more and more. Just had one. one day, got high, realized it really wasnt all that i had thought it was, and put it down and was done with it. you CAN go from addict to "bein able to use like a gentleman" as u put it. But you sure as hell cant do it if you in NA and believe you cant. But just becuz thats how it works for you aint how it works for everybody else. And that smug-ass attitude that so many of yall got, is the thing that makes so many of us hate it like we do.


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## NewPhone

I'm hooked on the AA program?  I've never gone through AA withdrawal.  I go because I want to not because I physically need to.  If you don't go to the clinic you will be shooting dope or doing something else to get your withdrawal off.  


My dad got clean through AA.  He stopped going to meetings after a year.  He has been sober for 27 years.  I don't plan on going my whole life, I know I don't have to and don't need to.  It does help way more than anything else in early sobriety.  Knock it all you want, I know what's good.  Real talk


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## DragonRider97

Enjoyed this post, but you are wrong...there's a whole chapter in the AA big book HOW IT WORKS!

Fourteen years sober, although I have some other problems now, I have managed to stay away from my drug of choice which was alcohol.

I'm presently on day four of Poppy Tea Withdrawl, seeing the light at the end of the tunnel I hope.  I started on Poppy tea mainly out of ignorance, I had a pinched nerve in my neck and I managed to get addicted to Hydrocodone, HA, nothing compared to the Dragon baby!  But the doctors soon decided I was taking too many Hydrocodone, and I was on the doctor shopping list, so they stopped prescribing...The pain was real, the addiction was now real as well, so I searched for an alternative, and OH MY GOD, a legal alternative that wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg.   Poppy pods!  Within a few months I was doing 35 pods a day, I had become a zombie, no libido, I would go without sexin' the little misses for months, she thought I hated her and began to gain weight, as did I, fifty pounds!

She kept asking what that stuff was that I was using, I told her it was Vallairian, but she's not a tard, she looked it up after awhile and figured out the real deal.  That's when she laid it down, quit or I leave...of course I didn't quit then, but what I did was start going to AA meetings again, and I began to remember that it wasn't that bad being sober, and eventually I decided to kick the dragon for my own reasons.

So here I am, day four, still can't eat, still having massive dysentary, still having the shivers.  I don't recommend my method, but I did cut back from 35 pods to roughly 20 pods a day before quiting, I also managed to get a little hyco, in the form of Tussinex, which took the edge off of the withdrawls for about a day, (It did allow me a little sleep on the first night at least) after I swigged half the bottle...

I didn't use any benzo's, just Skelaxin and Methocarbamol for muscle relief.  The worst part for me is the lack of sleep.  I hate not sleeping, in fact that was one of the things I loved about Poppy tea, I could really get a nod on and have some cool ass dreams, but they were just dreams and my life and health were falling apart while I grinned stupidly.

I've managed to keep the cravings under control just by asking God to remove them...

That's How it Works!


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## NewPhone

And FYI I have been there, I was the anti-christ of 12 step meetings.  You know why?  I thought because I was a junky I needed NA.  In my experience NA is some bunk ass shit.  I am much happier with AA.  I couldn't find anybody with any clean time in NA, they were fucking wack.

I have friends in AA that are on pain meds, shit this one guy has a pain pump in his back and is on dilaudid 24/7 so don't give me that bullshit about you can't do that in the program.  That's NA not AA.  NA, CA, DA, I've tried them all they all sucked.  It wasn't till by chance I went to a good AA meeting that I liked the program


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## paranoid android

DragonRider97 said:


> I've managed to keep the cravings under control just by asking God to remove them...
> 
> That's How it Works!



 So your hooked on god instead of alcohol or opiates? It's just another replacement and you have to do shit yourself if you sit around waiting for god to help you your going to be a old man still waiting.

 As for the god stuff well pass me the bacardi and the dilaudid anyday over that


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## Khadijah

NewPhone said:


> If you don't go to the clinic you will be shooting dope or doing something else to get your withdrawal off.



Once again...I dont go to a clinic.

Second like i said in my last post...I HAVE had to be sick before when i didnt have my done script and the Dr. messed up and didnt refill it on the right date. And i lived thru it, and waited a few days til they worked it out and got my script, and didnt go back to using jack shit. I dealt with the WD and waited til i could fill my script and that was it. There was no dope or pills or nothing else in that place. 

Maybe on methadone YOU would not be able to survive without fallin back into addiction if you missed a dose or w/ever, but that aint how it been for me so dont be so sure when you say that if i didnt go to the clinic I'd still be shooting dope or w/ever. speak for yourself.


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## Khadijah

dragynfyr, come back when you got more than 4 days off pod tea and tell us more about how successful that was for you. I do hope that u able to get past ur problems. I would never wish the pain & suffering of continuing a addiction on nobody, even if I dont agree with their wack job ideas. Becuz we all feel pain and addiction makes us all hurt even if we feel different ways about it.

So i do hope that its able to work for you, but honestly its too early to tell. You still detoxin. you aint got no experience of actually living the life w/out addiction and really knowing wat it means to be clean yet. You aint outta the woods yo. Its too soon to talk about "I know it works, becuz I stopped taking pod tea and so now I just drinkin alcohol all day and pray for god to take away my cravings and i got 4 days so far!"

Its great that u got 4 days yo, and when u addicted, shiit. 4 days seems like a really fuckin long time, I know that.

But you really dont even know if it "works" yet at all, you dont know that til you get a lil farther into shit. good luck, but for real, dont be so quick to assume its that easy is all Im sayin.


----------



## DragonRider97

Have you ever actually tried AA or NA?  You sure knock it, but you don't seem to have very much experience with it...

Your deal about Methadone addiction and it being a denial when the pain is real, hey I can appreciate that, I got bucked off of a horse and pinched a nerve in my neck (Collapsed disk)but these doctors will really screw you up, they put me on Hyco, then they decided I was taking too many, oh we can't have that!  So they cut me off!  Leaving me with just a couple of days supply and a real delima, so I began to research, and I found Poppy Tea, now that's the dragon baby!That shit will jack you up.  My research ended on an alternative, and I couldn't take the pain so it seemed like a good deal.  I was wrong!  Poppy teais the devil, the dragon and Lucifer rolled into one.  After three years without detoxing I had gained fifty pounds, had no libido, blood pressure through the roof,and a wife that was seriously considering leaving me after twenty years of marriage.

So I went back to where I had success before, AA, and I found a reason to stop this instanity, so after some preparation I began to cut back, from 35 to 40 pods a day back to twenty, might not seem lilke much, but believe me, I was feelilng it.  I'm on day four of  dextox and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel...hopfully not a train.  

Still having the shakes, gooseflesh, and unbelievable dysentary!!!, but I'm getting it under control, and without benzo;s

I've been able to control my cravings by simply asking God to remove them, THATS HOW IT WORKS!!!


----------



## DragonRider97

paranoid android said:


> So your hooked on god instead of alcohol or opiates? It's just another replacement and you have to do shit yourself if you sit around waiting for god to help you your going to be a old man still waiting.
> 
> As for the god stuff well pass me the bacardi and the dilaudid anyday over that


That's where you are wrong...It's not a change of addictions, I just ask God to help me by removing the cravings, and I don't know why, but it works every single time!!!  I haven't been well enough to get back to meetings, but I'm getting there.  I'm not craving pods, hyco, or anything else.  And you know what, the pain in my neck, isnt even bothering me anymore...

AA is a program of replacement to be sure, you replace non functional behavior with functional behavior, addiction with meetings and steps, but they lead to a better life, a life of freedom from alcohol and drugs, I'm fourteen years sober (Alcohol was always my drug of choice) and if you can drink on Bacardi or take one Dauladid, good for you...I can't, and what's more, I know I can't so I try to replace that behavior with something productive...

Don't knock it till you've tried it...

That's HOW IT WORKS!!!


----------



## DragonRider97

NewPhone said:


> And FYI I have been there, I was the anti-christ of 12 step meetings.  You know why?  I thought because I was a junky I needed NA.  In my experience NA is some bunk ass shit.  I am much happier with AA.  I couldn't find anybody with any clean time in NA, they were fucking wack.
> 
> I have friends in AA that are on pain meds, shit this one guy has a pain pump in his back and is on dilaudid 24/7 so don't give me that bullshit about you can't do that in the program.  That's NA not AA.  NA, CA, DA, I've tried them all they all sucked.  It wasn't till by chance I went to a good AA meeting that I liked the program


Good post, good luck and God bless!!!


----------



## Khadijah

DragonRider97 said:


> Have you ever actually tried AA or NA?  You sure knock it, but you don't seem to have very much experience with it...
> 
> Your deal about Methadone addiction and it being a denial when the pain is real, hey I can appreciate that, I got bucked off of a horse and pinched a nerve in my neck (Collapsed disk)but these doctors will really screw you up, they put me on Hyco, then they decided I was taking too many, oh we can't have that!  So they cut me off!  Leaving me with just a couple of days supply and a real delima, so I began to research, and I found Poppy Tea, now that's the dragon baby!That shit will jack you up.  My research ended on an alternative, and I couldn't take the pain so it seemed like a good deal.  I was wrong!  Poppy teais the devil, the dragon and Lucifer rolled into one.  After three years without detoxing I had gained fifty pounds, had no libido, blood pressure through the roof,and a wife that was seriously considering leaving me after twenty years of marriage.
> 
> So I went back to where I had success before, AA, and I found a reason to stop this instanity, so after some preparation I began to cut back, from 35 to 40 pods a day back to twenty, might not seem lilke much, but believe me, I was feelilng it.  I'm on day four of  dextox and seeing the light at the end of the tunnel...hopfully not a train.
> 
> Still having the shakes, gooseflesh, and unbelievable dysentary!!!, but I'm getting it under control, and without benzo;s
> 
> I've been able to control my cravings by simply asking God to remove them, THATS HOW IT WORKS!!!



Uh, yea. I have spent over a year and a half goin to (usually) weekly NA meetings. I definately got my share of experience with it. I have went to many different ones too not just one. Different areas of jersey, meetings with older people, younger people, big ones small ones and so on. I have put in my time with it for sure. 

I have more experience with it than i would like to, and at first i really tried to give it a chance. Take the good and leave the bad. but the more and more time i spent there the more i realized there really aint a whole lot of good. The attitudes of people there are so annoying that i can barely make it thru a meeting these days. I am so sick of hearin the same old stupid shit over and over. The same sad-sack stories, repeated by the same people week after week. 

I aint gonna get really into it with you becuz you obviously another one of the totally die-hard members who believes that repeating the same thing over and over will make it true. I can see that you completely set in your ways and are mostly intersted in offering quotes from the program literature to back up your ideas, so you aint gonna change your mind and I aint tryin to do that. But Ima just say thats good that its "how it works"  for you, but that really aint "how it works" for at the VERY least 95% of the people in the program, becuz after one year, thats how many people have left and stopped coming.

Out of that 5% of people who still keep attending meetings, there is only about 1% who stayed clean the entire time and didnt relapse at any point.

So you have a 99% failure rate. 

If you are in the 1% great for you but in the real world with the VAST majority of people, prayin away your cravings dont work. There is many studies that show the success rate of AA/NA is actually horrible, and that the claims the program makes are from "cherry-picking" their statistics (meaning, they only count people who succeed as "members", becuz a true member follows the program. If you follow the program, it will work. If it dont work, it means that you didnt follow it. Therefore, only the people who it works for, are counted as "members", which is how they can claim such ridiculously high success rates like they do. which are totally unscientific and straight up wrong. But no die hard 12stepper will recognize or admit that, so ima move on)

And wat do you do when it stops working? Where do u go from there? just curious. 

Before you go sayin "O ye of little faith" -- I absolutely believe in god and I pray all the time. I aint a anti spiritual person. aint got the tiniest problem with a higher power. Im cool with all that. I fully believe in god and that the reason i am still here after all my brushes with death and prison is becuz I had the help of that higher power.

But know wat, that higher power aint the one who got me clean, and aint the one who keeps me clean. its ME, and the power inside myself to want to succeed. You cant put your failure, or your success, off on nobody but yourself. 

I always thought it was really funny how the whole 12 steps are so centered around "taking responsibility" for shit, even for shit that really AINT your fault, but the program encourage u to see your fault in EVERYTHING and "be responsible" for it. BUt when it comes to your own recovery you suppose to just lay there helplessly and wait for somebody to do it for you. Wheres the responsiblity then?

 That aint my style, and to take a quote i have heard ppl say before "Free will, I never leave home without it." 

If you happy to leave the choice and responsiblity of everything related to your success completely up to somebody else good luck and i hope it works but i sure as hell could never feel no type of satisfaction or fulfillment from livin like that. I am happy that I am clean, and I thank god for givin me the STRENTH, DETERMINATION, WILL, DRIVE, DISCIPLINE, and FAITH to keep going and stay on the right path....But it was all ME that did the work.

GOD HELPS THOSE WHO  HELP THEMSELVES.

"AND THATS HOW IT WORKS!"


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## DragonRider97

lacey k said:


> But you really dont even know if it "works" yet at all, you dont know that til you get a lil farther into shit. good luck, but for real, dont be so quick to assume its that easy is all Im sayin.



You didn't see my previous posts I suppose, I'm fourteen years sober (Alcohol was my drug of choice) and I maintain that even though I fell into opiate addiction, because to me they are two seperate affairs.  But I have had success with the program of AA (Fourteen years of sobrity is nothing to sneeze at) and I have no doubt it will serve me in my opiate addiction the same way. I had quite going to meetings for about five years,  that's when my wreck on the horse happened and some other things in my life, but I managed to stay sober even while riding the dragon.  In the last two months I've started going back to meetings and the support has been amazing, they didn't care that I was an opiate addict, still using, they were just glad I was there, and I was glad to be there.  

Lacy, whatever works in your life, more power to you, just don't go running down what has worked for millions and millions of alcoholics and drug addicts around the world.


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## DragonRider97

GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES.

"AND THATS HOW IT WORKS!" 

Amen Lacy, I can be down with that...Peace!


----------



## DragonRider97

paranoid android said:


> And who gives a fuck if you work 40+ hours a week? Also define a normal life because normal really is not a definition. Normal for some people is drinking 3 bloody marys for breakfast or shooting heroin first thing in the morning. For others it's being dependant on your sponsor and AA/NA. For other people it's just the ordinary bullshit that goes with everyday life.
> 
> So far your logic does not seem to logical atleast to me.



Wow, it's not about "NORMAL" behavior, it's about "HEALTHY" behavior, behavior that allows us to be productive members of society.  Methadone Clinics have been shown to be a dramatic failure, they just change one unhealty unproductive addiciton for another.  Whereas, AA is a program of action, and responsibility, and yes...a Higher Power.  I know you guys think I'm talking out of my ass, but I have NO DOUBT that the program will work for me as it did fourteen years ago in my alcholism.  (A much bleaker tiime of my life actually).  And hey, if you can drink one or two drinks and put it down, good for you, if you can take a couple of hyco once a month or so to relax, good for you, I can't, and I had to come to that realization.  Step one....

That's how it works...


----------



## DragonRider97

paranoid android said:


> Newphone i was a raging alcoholic for years and quit about 7 years back with a few relapses here and there mostly related to certain events in my life. But i drank a beer yesterday at a bar and only had that 1 beer even though i had plenty of cash in my pocket.



Keep trying that and see how long it works for you...

Look, I'm not saying your an alcholoic, you said that yourself, and you had a beer...that's called a RELAPSE, but the good news is, there's a program out there, somewhere, that will work for you, when you make up your mind that you want it bad enough.

Your Higher Power has nothing to do with religion, it's about spirituality, you've been to enough meetings to know what I''m talking about.  You just don't want it yet, so you knock it, hey, if you can now drink normally, more power to you!!! and I mean that!!


----------



## Khadijah

No, it aint called a relapse if you dont go back into addiction. If you make a non-impulsive, well thought out , rational CHOICE to use, that is alot different than  "slippin up" or "relapsing." When it aint a involuntary mistake, but instead it is a decision that you make , consciously, I wont call that a relapse, especially since it didnt end up as a negative thing.

 I was addicted to heroin for years, and after getting clean and gettin my head right, I was able to use from time to time, every couple months usually, and be satisfied with that. I would get high, enjoy my recreational use, and then forget about it. Since then I stopped usin completely, but i was absolutely able to use, successfully, without no negative effects or desire to CONTINUE the use. That "more more more" addict part of me was not there wanting more. I was able to go back to the kind of use that non-addicts do. Wat Im saying is that Addiction aint permanent for everyone. For some it is, but others of us ARE able to go back to controlled, successful use that never gets out of control or causes us to fall back into old habits. there has been many scientific studies that show that a certain percentage of alcoholics and addicts ARE able to return to occasional, recreational use WITHOUT falling back into addiction, after they get their life in order and get their head straight.They aint a majority, but they are real. And thats one problem i got with the program is that it preaches that once you are addict, you are always gonna be that way, and can never go back to using recreationally. But you can, I am living proof of it and I seen it in action enough times to know that its true. 

Dont get me wrong _i aint sayin every addict can use safely without becoming addicted again_, but it is a VERY REAL thing that some of us CAN. It aint just that you are either a addict and cannot control your use, or you are a non-addict, and you can control your use. There is also recovered addicts who are able to use occasionally, without no ill effects, and are totally satisfied and happy with that. I was one of them and i known a few myself.

Now on to your post before that about methadone. I am sayin this from a completely logic-centered point of view. Not a methadone promoting one, simply a scientific, factual one. You are very wrong to say the shit you did about methadone being a ineffective treatment.

Methadone clinics have ABSOLUTELY NOT been proved to be a horrible failure. Methadone is the most effective, reliable treatment that there is for addiction. it has the longest record of use, and there has been enough studies and monitoring of it for there to be plenty of data about how effective it is. Its just straight up, factually incorrect to say that methadone is a failure of a treatment. For example, here is just one source



> *Methadone is widely employed throughout the world, and is the most effective known treatment for heroin addiction. (2). The success of methadone in reducing crime, death, disease, and drug use is well documented. (3).
> 
> The benefits of MMT have been established by hundreds of scientific studies, and there are almost no negative health consequences of long-term methadone treatment, even when it continues for twenty or thirty years.
> 
> * Methadone is the most effective treatment for heroin addiction. Compared to the other major drug treatment modalities—drug-free outpatient treatment, therapeutic communities, and chemical dependency treatment—methadone is the most rigorously studied and has yielded the best results. *(4)



Note that they said methadone is the most effective, compared to THERAPEUTIC COMMUNITIES, _which INCLUDES NA and AA_, and non-drug outpatient treatment (such as counseling, group therapy, etc.) which would also apply to NA-type groups.

These are the FACTS. Actual-factual, proven, totally back-up-able, scientific evidence has found this to be true. When it comes to somethin as cold, hard, and clear as facts and not opinions, please dont let your personal ideas about it cloud ur judgement. Becuz the truth is that whether or not you agree with MMT for addiction treatment, these are the proven facts about its effectiveness.

i could keep posting these reports, over and over. there aint no shortage of evidence about methadones effectiveness. And I will, if you want me to. but i figured I wouldnt bore yall. But the proof is out there, and it is overwhelmingly in support of methadone.

If you deny the facts when they get presented to you, it turns your argument from a valid one into somethin else. When you can look at facts and blindly ignore them becuz u disagree, that really makes your opinion hold alot less meaning. I aint saying that you WILL be that way. Im just pointin out that I enjoy discussin shit like this with people , even ones I disagree with. But you cant have a intelligent discussion with somebody who cant accept factual evidence that proves somethin they dont wanna hear, so i hope that youll be able to accept those facts and not have the reaction that alot of other program members I have talked to tend to have.

here are the source studies , btw:

(2) _Institute of Medicine. Treating Drug Problems, vol. 1: A Study of the Evolution, Effectiveness, and Financing of Public and Private Drug Treatment Systems. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 1990:187. _
(3) (NSFW becuz its a long list) 

*NSFW*: 



_Institute of Medicine. Federal Regulation of Methadone Treatment. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 1995; Institute of Medicine. Treating Drug Problems, vol. 1: A Study of the Evolution, Effectiveness, and Financing of Public and Private Drug Treatment Systems. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 1990:187; Ball JC, Ross A. The Effectiveness of Methadone Maintenance Treatment. New York: Springer-Verlag; 1991; Dole VP, Nyswander M, Warner A. Successful treatment of 750 criminal addicts. JAMA: Journal of the American Medical Association. 1968;206:2708-2711; Anglin MD, McGlothlin WH. Outcome of narcotic addict treatment in California. In: Tims FM, Ludford JP, eds. Drug Abuse Treatment Evaluation: Strategies, Progress, and Prospects. NIDA Research Monograph 51. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services; 1984:106-128; Hubbard RL, Rachal JV, Craddock SG, Cavanaugh ER. Treatment Outcome Prospective Study (TOPS): Client characteristics and behaviors before, during, and after treatment. In: Tims FM, Ludford JP, eds. Drug Abuse Treatment Evaluation: Strategies, Progress, and Prospects. NIDA Research Monograph 51. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services; 1984:42-68; See also the primary randomized controlled studies of methadone's effectiveness: Dole VP, Robinson JW, Orraca J, Towns E, Searcy P, Caine E. Methadone treatment of randomly selected criminal addicts. New England Journal of Medicine 1969;280:1372-1375; Newman RG, Whitehill WB. Double-blind comparison of methadone and placebo maintenance treatments of narcotic addicts in Hong Kong. Lancet. 1979:8141:485-488; Gunne L, Gršnbladh L. The Swedish methadone maintenance program: A controlled study. Drug and Alcohol Dependence. 1981;7:249-256. _




(4)

*NSFW*: 



_See: Institute of Medicine. Treating Drug Problems, vol. 1: A Study of the Evolution, Effectiveness, and Financing of Public and Private Drug Treatment Systems. Washington, DC: National Academy Press; 1990:187; The TOPS study of over 11,000 drug users found that retention in treatment is the best predictor of treatment success, and found that methadone had the best retention rates of all three treatment modalities studied (methadone maintenance, therapeutic communities, and drug-free outpatient treatment). Hubbard RL, Rachal JV, Craddock SG, Cavanaugh ER. Treatment Outcome Prospective Study (TOPS): Client characteristics and behaviors before, during, and after treatment. In: Tims FM, Ludford JP, eds. Drug Abuse Treatment Evaluation: Strategies, Progress, and Prospects. NIDA Research Monograph 51. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services; 1984:42-68; Hubbard RL, et al. Drug Abuse Treatment: A National Study of Effectiveness. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press; 1989; See also discussion in: Ward J, Mattick R, Hall W. Key Issues in Methadone Maintenance Treatment. New South Wales, Australia: New South Wales University Press; 1992:29-32. _




That is from drugpolicy.org, a well known and established source for information about this type of shit. I know dont nobody wanna read thru all that footnote source shit, but i wanted to put it there just to show just HOW much studies have concluded this information, that it aint just one or two but it is a solid, well understood thing. That in the addiction treatment community of doctors, rehabs, etc, that the overwhelming, general agreement is that methadone is the most effective treatment that is available. This aint just my opinion, this is the facts, and whether or not i think methadone is a good treatment aint relevant, becuz the facts speak for themselvs.


Now for the OPINION part of my post--Methadone aint trading one unhealthy unproductive addiction for another.

First of all, you are DEPENDENT on methadone. you are ADDICTED to heroin. Once you get on methadone, unless u are abusing it of course, you aint gettin high from it, you aint catchin a buzz or a nod. You may be physically dependent on it, but you aint addicted. You aint like "ohhh, yea, my methadone, oh baby, cant wait to get that shit in my veins, ooohhh yea methadone" like you do with dope. it aint like "Oh god i love methadone so much, I wish i could just do methadone all day long" like it is with dope. You dont crave it, you dont need it, you aint desperately in love with it, it aint your whole life like heroin is.

Its simply a medication you take, it stabilizes you, and thats that. Dependence is one thing. addiction is the harmful thing. A person who is on a opiate medication will become dependent on it. that is the physical part. The emotional psychological part is addiction. Once you start feeling like you need it, cravin it, wanting it more and more, and gettin that whole mental obssession with it you have addiction. And ADDICTION is wat causes all those harmful things and causes the shitty lifestyle. A dependent person needs to take their meds becuz if they dont take it they will get sick, but they aint freakin out, they aint goin to crazy lengths to get the drug, they aint willing to risk everything and anything to have it, it aint taking up every moment of their life, their life aint all about the drug like it is during addiction.

And at least as far as Im concerned, the point of getting clean, is to be FREE FROM THAT ADDICTION.

If you aint having junkie thoughts. If you aint craving the drug, if you aint obsessing over the drug. if your every wakin moment aint full of thinking about it, wishing for it, filling ur mind with memories of the old times when u were high. If you dont want it 24/7. If you aint willing to do crazy shit to get it. If you are happy without it--Then you are living without addiction. If you are dependent on Methadone, but your life is free from the ADDICTION...thats the point if you ask me.  Methadone allows people to be stable and function. Instead of fillin their time with drugs and tryin to get drugs and hustling for drugs and finding drugs and usin the drugs, it is free to be used for more. Once that every day struggle is gone, that CHAOS that fills the life of a addict, gets replaced with stability and for the first time in a long time, the chance to do somethin "normal" for a change.

When you addicted to dope your whole life is focused on not gettin sick, makin sure u got money for dope, a ride to get the dope, etc. It takes up the entire day just to hustle up enough money, go cop it, and then finally get right and by the time you do , the day is shot and all you can do is go home and nod out and get ready to do it all over again the next day. Once you got the methadone, thats DONE. That whole entire lifestyle is out the fuckin window. You aint gotta deal with all that. Suddenly you got a whole LIFE ahead of you again, for you to use and make somethin of it.

In the past I did go to a clinic a few years back. And let me tell you, there was more people there with jobs than not. When i went in the morning, everybody was on line  before they opened, so they could get in and still get to work on time. I saw people dressed up in business suits and shit like that, even. All kinds of people, but there was way, way more people who was working than people who wasnt.  When you are free from the ADDICTION, bein dependent aint really a big issue as far as im concerned. You got the ability to have a stable, productive life becuz the methadone gives you that chance. It takes away all the problems associated with the addiction.

If you got a problem with bein physically dependent on any medication, thats you, but I dont believe that addiction is purely physical. ESPECIALLY if a person REQUIRES pain medications for a serious pain condition, the dependence is a REALITY, a NECESSITY, of their life.

Let me ask this--if a person got a condition that they absolutely, completely, without a doubt truly NEED, NEED, pain medications, and they are a ex heroin addict. And they stopped using heroin and any other unnecessary drugs. They only use their meds, AS PRESCRIBED. They never abuse them, never take extra, never try to catch a high off them, they only take wat they are suppose to, WHEN they are suppose to, and that is it.

Are they clean? I think so.  So, I aint sure your opinion, but I think that many ppl would agree with me that he IS clean. He is DEPENDENT on the medication, but his life is free of addict BEHAVIOR, THOUGHTS, ACTIONS, MENTALITY, etc. The ADDICTION part, is gone. And becuz the only difference between addiction and dependence is IN YOUR HEAD, as long as the mental part is gone, its safe to say he aint addicted, he is dependent.

So wats the difference with a Methadone patient? Sure, you can be on MMT and still have a addict brain. You can still be thinkin like an addict. And in that case, you are still an addict. BUT, for the people like me and others I know, who take it as prescribed, and aint got the addict mentality, we are DEPENDENT...NOT addicted. So i dont think its fair to act like I am anything even close to bein the person I was when I was bootin dope all day every day. My mind is compeltely, totally different, everything about me and my life and how i act and live is different. I am dependent on methadone but I aint addicted to it, and the addict inside me is gone. I am without a doubt clean and I didnt trade one addiction for another. I traded my addiction for a physical dependence on the medication that TREATS my addiction and lets me live a happy, productive, normal life. I dont think like I used to . I dont crave for heroin. I dont love heroin no more. I dont wish I could use it. I dont want to use it. I dont even think about it much, to be totally honest, it aint even always there at the back of my mind like it used to .It aint even really an issue for me these days. I dont have to focus on stayin clean. It aint a struggle, it aint even a conscious choice really. I just do it, becuz its how i am. I dont have to work at it, its just naturally how I operate,  becuz my mind is free from that addict mentality. I feel so much better than I ever have, and I aint got no fear of becomin that old person again, just like you say you KNOW the program will work for you again, i KNOW that this way of life is workin and will continue to work for ME. if that aint success, I dont know wat is.


----------



## DragonRider97

lacey k said:


> No, it aint called a relapse if you dont go back into addiction. If you make a non-impulsive, well thought out , rational CHOICE to use, that is alot different than  "slippin up" or "relapsing." When it aint a involuntary mistake, but instead it is a decision that you make , consciously, I wont call that a relapse, especially since it didnt end up as a negative thing.



I'll go with that, like I said in my post, hey if you can drink normally now, more power too you.  I actually have some relatives of Irish birth that have a horrible time with Alcohol until they turn forty years old, then for some reason it seems like they can drink normally after that.  I'm certainly not saying we understand everything about addiction, but now the question is, can he keep going in and only drinking one beer, I pray he can, nothing would make me happier, I just know that for most addicts, that isn't the reality!



lacey k said:


> I was addicted to heroin for years, and after getting clean and gettin my head right, I was able to use from time to time, every couple months usually, and be satisfied with that. I would get high, enjoy my recreational use, and then forget about it. Since then I stopped usin completely, but i was absolutely able to use, successfully, without no negative effects or desire to CONTINUE the use. That "more more more" addict part of me was not there wanting more. I was able to go back to the kind of use that non-addicts do. Wat Im saying is that Addiction aint permanent for everyone. For some it is, but others of us ARE able to go back to controlled, successful use that never gets out of control or causes us to fall back into old habits. there has been many scientific studies that show that a certain percentage of alcoholics and addicts ARE able to return to occasional, recreational use WITHOUT falling back into addiction, after they get their life in order and get their head straight.They aint a majority, but they are real. And thats one problem i got with the program is that it preaches that once you are addict, you are always gonna be that way, and can never go back to using recreationally. But you can, I am living proof of it and I seen it in action enough times to know that its true.



Youre right, it does sortof preach that, but then again, the big book says, if you doubt you are an alcoholic, try some controlled drinking...

I think we are talking overwhelming percentages though, when it comes to addictive behavior, it has to be 75%+ who go back to using their drug of choice will Relapse...




lacey k said:


> Now on to your post before that about methadone. I am sayin this from a completely logic-centered point of view. Not a methadone promoting one, simply a scientific, factual one. You are very wrong to say the shit you did about methadone being a ineffective treatment.
> 
> Methadone clinics have ABSOLUTELY NOT been proved to be a horrible failure. Methadone is the most effective, reliable treatment that there is for addiction. it has the longest record of use, and there has been enough studies and monitoring of it for there to be plenty of data about how effective it is. Its just straight up, factually incorrect to say that methadone is a failure of a treatment. For example, here is just one source:





Here is my source:  SALON.COM
Editor: 
Updated: TodayTopic:
Drugs 
Thursday, May 27, 2010 19:17 ET 
Study: Heroin better than methadone to kick habit
British trial may lead to new treatment policy. Similar test possible in U.S. 
By Associated Press  Some heroin addicts who got the drug under medical supervision had a better chance of kicking the habit than those who got methadone, a new study says. 

In a British study of 127 people who previously failed to beat their addiction, scientists gave them either injectable heroin or methadone. After six months, those who got heroin were much less likely to continue taking the drug illegally than those who got methadone. The results were published Friday in the British medical journal, Lancet. 



lacey k said:


> Now for the OPINION part of my post--Methadone aint trading one unhealthy unproductive addiction for another.
> 
> First of all, you are DEPENDENT on methadone. you are ADDICTED to heroin. Once you get on methadone, unless u are abusing it of course, you aint gettin high from it, you aint catchin a buzz or a nod. You may be physically dependent on it, but you aint addicted. You aint like "ohhh, yea, my methadone, oh baby, cant wait to get that shit in my veins, ooohhh yea methadone" like you do with dope. it aint like "Oh god i love methadone so much, I wish i could just do methadone all day long" like it is with dope. You dont crave it, you dont need it, you aint desperately in love with it, it aint your whole life like heroin is.
> 
> Its simply a medication you take, it stabilizes you, and thats that. Dependence is one thing. addiction is the harmful thing. A person who is on a opiate medication will become dependent on it. that is the physical part. The emotional psychological part is addiction. Once you start feeling like you need it, cravin it, wanting it more and more, and gettin that whole mental obssession with it you have addiction. And ADDICTION is wat causes all those harmful things and causes the shitty lifestyle. A dependent person needs to take their meds becuz if they dont take it they will get sick, but they aint freakin out, they aint goin to crazy lengths to get the drug, they aint willing to risk everything and anything to have it, it aint taking up every moment of their life, their life aint all about the drug like it is during addiction.




You know Lacy we're not as far apart as you think.  I had a terrible wreck on a horse, flipped the horse, one point landing, shot disk in my neck, doctors tell me, oh hell, we can  manage your pain, just take this Hyco for the next six months, and oops, we forgot to tell you, but the state of Texas is cracking down on doctors who prescribe Hyco long term, so we can't give you anymore...sorry!!!  You know where that went, I was swilling poppy tea three times a day, 35 pods a day sometimes, just for relief.  Okay, question, was I functioning..yeah, I was still going to work, still paying my taxes, blah blah blah, but was I an addict, yes, because my life was becoming unmanagable.  My wife of twenty years was about to leave me because we haddn't had sex in months, but if you looked from the outside, alot of people would have said I was fine and dandy!  I was dependant, and addicted, and it had to stop, not for my wife, but for my own reasons, and by using techniques I learned in AA, the cravings have been few and far between.  All of us Addicts share one thing in common, we all hate pain.  Emotional, physical, mental, spiritual, whatever, now you might be able to shove sixteen penny nail through your nipple, but when it comes to withdrawl pain, we all shiver, we all fear the dark reaches of our own minds...Whatever shall we do when the pain becomes so unbearable?  Will we hurt ourselves, will we hurt others, will we go on a rampage for our drug of choice?  Just one of the things we have in common I'm quite sure.  Nothing but LOVE FOR YOU LACY!!!  I'm happy you've managed to beat your addiciton, I wish it were that simple for me...


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## Khadijah

Thanks for your post and for readin thru mine. I am always down for a respectable & intelligent discussion about this type of ish and it was interesting to talk about it with somebody whose willing to listen, u know? You are right that we sure all seem to want to avoid pain in any way, and its addict nature but i think its human nature too addicts just take it overboard to the extreme.

BTW, becuz heroin maintenance aint a option for us in the good ol US, obviously they dont include it as a treatment method when studyin the best or most effective options. Its too bad but thats another story completely. I understand where u comin from by quotin the heroin tretment vs methadone treatment thing but unfortunately we are light years away from programs like that bein available here....I guess it would be more accurate to say "out of all the AVAILABLE and recoginzed treatment options methadone got the best success rate" but it aint for everybody I am totally willing to admit that. 

I really aint got nothin against most individuals who can say that doin the program has worked for them....any time somebody is havin success against the suffering of addiction that is a good thing...I got my issues with the program itself but I aint begrudging nobody their happiness if that has came to them thru using the steps. u could say that i "hate the game, not the player" you feel me  But like i said...good post, great to talk to somebody more open minded than most of the devoted na/aa members that i have seen. to each their own , u kno how it goes. and good luck with it for sure i hope that it works as good as it did for u in the past this time around. like i said, I might not agree with the whole thing but i would never wish the pain of stayin stuck in an addiction on nobody so I do hope that u find happiness with it, that is the main goal so nevermind how u get there as long as it works out for u in the end.


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## DragonRider97

It's been a pleasure talking to you Lacey.  I respect the AA Program, it worked so well for me, you just can't imagine how my life changed fourteen years ago.  But hey, my father was an all day every day drinker "Functional" alcoholic, and he was able to kick it without AA, so I obviously don't espouse that AA is the one and only method to beat drugs and alcohol.  It's just the method that worked for me, and it's what I know and understand.

Thanks for the chat bro, it's taken my mind off of some leg cramps I've been having today...LOL.  Wish me luck!


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## DragonRider97

In response to the original article that started this thread.

The last line should sum up that entire article, "Gary is Sober, and that's what counts."
You know guys,  I've been sober for fourteen years now, currently battling another problem, but it's going very well and I'm conifident I will be fine.  I got sober in AA and I was a meeting-aolic, but where's the problem with that.  It's replacing unhealthy behaviour with healthy behaviour, that's all.  Now I even stopped going to meetings for years and years, seven or eight in fact, but I stayed sober.  I recently decided for my own benefit to go back to AA about four months ago, that was when I made a decision to beat an opiate addiction caused originally by a slipped disk in my neck.  I actually got more relief from accupuncture than opiates ever gave me anyway, so after taking my own council, and attending meetings for the last few months, I decided I wanted to quit opiates...It was my decision, no one in my group put any pressure on me to quit, and they knew I had a dependancy on opiates, even an addiction.  No, the decision was mine, though as I listened to the group, I could hear them saying through their stories, how it was time for me to drop the Dragon, and so I did, and I'm damn happy I've done it...

I spent a couple of months tapering back, until my dosage was roughly cut in half.  I should have used the Thomas method, but I didn;t want to take the Benzo's so I gutted it out.  My opiate withdrawl has been challanging, the dysentary is horrible, but its about the same as detoxing off of alcohol fourteen years ago, and if I just keep doing the next right action i'll be fine.  thanks to everyone who has offered support, I mean you Lacey.  And you know what, while I support what AA stands for, and how it has worked in my life, I fully understand there are people out therer that can get sober or clean without it, more power to them...

Love you all, and remember, pray for the addict or alcoholic that still suffers...


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## NewPhone

Look lacey I appologize if I offended you in any way.  In one of my posts I did mention rational recovery, a program like AA but without meetings and spirituality, just free will.  I know that it is possible to abstain from alcohol and drugs without AA, even AA knows this only they call it being a "dry drunk" which I disagree with because I think some "real alcoholics" as the book talks about ARE able to stop without a lifetime of AA ahead of them.  Like I said, my dad did one year of AA, 90 meetings in 90 days and then a meeting every week or two.  He has been sober 27 years.  At first that gave me the mentality that I can do it without AA, and sometimes I still get in that thought process I just see how AA is working for me right now and I want to give myself the best possible chance.  I'm not one of those people that gets sober and then devotes their life to AA.  Right now I am in a halfway house.  I did 140 days of residential treatment out of state.  I am doing outpatient.  Before I went to treatment I was on the streets.  I don't ever want that to happen again.  Feel me?  But I have friends who quit cold turkey and everything without AA.  Shit, when I got to detox I refused to take any suboxone or anything I just laid in bed and kicked.  Didn't eat or get out of bed for a week.  To each his own, but if nothing changes nothing changes.  I am glad that you are clean and like u said I don't wish addiction upon anyone.  Also, I am out of state still so I have used AA as a means to make friends here since all of my coworkers are drug addicts, one actually brought a bunch of K4s to work and I walked in onhim in the cooler shooting up I told him to get the fuck away from me and not do that shit around me.


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## DragonRider97

NewPhone said:


> Look lacey I appologize if I offended you in any way.  In one of my posts I did mention rational recovery, a program like AA but without meetings and spirituality, just free will.  I know that it is possible to abstain from alcohol and drugs without AA, even AA knows this only they call it being a "dry drunk" which I disagree with because I think some "real alcoholics" as the book talks about ARE able to stop without a lifetime of AA ahead of them.  Like I said, my dad did one year of AA, 90 meetings in 90 days and then a meeting every week or two.  He has been sober 27 years.  At first that gave me the mentality that I can do it without AA, and sometimes I still get in that thought process I just see how AA is working for me right now and I want to give myself the best possible chance.  I'm not one of those people that gets sober and then devotes their life to AA.  Right now I am in a halfway house.  I did 140 days of residential treatment out of state.  I am doing outpatient.  Before I went to treatment I was on the streets.  I don't ever want that to happen again.  Feel me?  But I have friends who quit cold turkey and everything without AA.  Shit, when I got to detox I refused to take any suboxone or anything I just laid in bed and kicked.  Didn't eat or get out of bed for a week.  To each his own, but if nothing changes nothing changes.  I am glad that you are clean and like u said I don't wish addiction upon anyone.  Also, I am out of state still so I have used AA as a means to make friends here since all of my coworkers are drug addicts, one actually brought a bunch of K4s to work and I walked in onhim in the cooler shooting up I told him to get the fuck away from me and not do that shit around me.



You're doing good bro, just remember, make the next right decission and everything is gonna work out good for you my man.  I did five solid years going to meetings on at least a weekly basis, and I sponsored five other alcoholics, two of which are still sober, and I can hear in your posts the conviction to change your life, after all, that's what really counts.  AA worked wonders in my life, and it can yours too, and I believe it will...

Hang in there bro, you're doing all the good!!!


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## Khadijah

I think that a funny and maybe a lil ironic thing about all the posts i done in this thread is the fact that this wk i got to start goin back to NA meetings for probation....It got to the point where i just really could not handle it no more, and every time I went i was not able to just sit there without sayin somethin when it was my turn to "share" (in the main meeting i went to, u go around in a circle and everybody share unless they pass) i would just have to say some shit like "You know I really dont understand XXXX"..... becuz certain things would just be shining out at me like "THIS IS RETARDED...THIS DONT MAKE NO SENSE" and i could not just sit there, becuz the topic of the meeting was "HONESTY" and I was like real talk, Ima really really keep it 100--I dont get it. How can you say this and then do this. how can this be the idea, but then you also say this, and so on. 

I knew it was upsettin other members and ppl was gettin some type of way about it...So i excused myself from goin to meetings for a while bcuz I just couldnt do it....I handled it for months and months, matter fact over a year...but i just couldnt handle it no more. so i stopped goin so i could leave the believers to their fun and not ruin it for em.

I talked to my PO about it and he was like listen. You obviously dont need to go to na meetings. you obviously understand that its stupid. I think its pretty stupid too, and i regret that the court makes me send people there, becuz its somethin that really dont fit with my ideas about how to deal with offenders who are clearly cleand and stopped using drugs and dont need the help to stay that way, and i know it really sucks, but the judge sent you there. I have to make you keep goin. Just do the meetings, you can sit there and fuck off the whole time if you wnat, i really dont care if you get one thing out of them, but just go, get the signature, and that way i aint gotta get in trouble for not doin my job by sendin you to them.

So, i gotta start goin to them again sometime this wk before i see my PO.....

So as much as I aint for it, i wanted to "share" that with yall and give u a good laugh that NA enemy number one is gonna be stuck in meetings for the next few yrs til probation runs out ...Haha, aint that a bitch.  maybe i will run in to one of yall


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## paranoid android

Naw i wouldnt call it a relapse as i had intended to have a beer or 2 that day. I was fucking around downtown in the middle of a hot day (worst fucking time to be down there since the fucking tourists depress the shit out of me) so i figured a beer or 2 wouldnt hurt. So i drank 1 MGD (they didnt have guiness or even fucking heineken  ) then left since the alcohol wasent helping my mood any.

 These days it seems that there just has to be something to set me off that will provoke a actual relapse. The last one i had was a few months ago when i was on the out's really bad with my g/f and went on my first 4 day bender in 7 fucking years. Not that i was drinking to enjoy it mind you it was more of a self destruct type thing then anything else. It could have just as easily have been a crack pipe that i picked up instead of a bottle mind you except that i didnt have the cash for coke. Plus coke has a way of bringing all your problems right into sickening sharp focus and just making it all seem worse.

 Sorry if i came off as harsh man. No offense meant.


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## Artificial Emotion

Are you tweaking a lot these days? You seem to have a lot o energy. 



lacey k said:


> Hell yea, I agree 100% with you.
> 
> I dont really agree tho, that it may be the only way for a "hardcore" user to get clean. I was shooting up 25-30 bags of heroin everyday, Im 23 now and had started using when i was 16, you know? Many many people been usin for way longer and had way worse habits. But im just sayin, it was a significant amount of time to be using heroin for. And i got clean without nothin but Methadone and my determination, for once.
> 
> Dont get me wrong, i am SO against that whole "if a junkie CAN stop on their own, they WOULD. So , obviously, since they dont, it means they CANT stop, and they NEED NA or Rehab." Thats a load of shit. And i cant stand the ignorant ppl who say "Well, why dont you just stop?" And all that.
> 
> i aint one of them willpower people who is all about "just doing it." But I do believe that once you hit the right circumstances in the right combination at the right time, once you get that "click" in your head that you reallllly understand wat you gotta do, its much easier to do it. for me, it was bein 5 minutes away from a jail cell. I was at my probation office after my 2nd dirty piss test in like 3 months, and they were a minute from haulin my ass down into the county. I  had 2 felony cases open that i was on concurrent probation for, and i copped out on both of them. If i violated probation, both of my cases woulda got reopened in the court , and i woulda had to go to trial facing at the very very least a 3 year state prison sentence and the possibility of much more years than that, since i had distribution charges, conspiracy charges, and multiple possession charges for heroin , paraphenelia, and marijuana.
> 
> Anyways, at that point i realized, damn. Im either gonna be in jail not using, or out here not using. I got to do this . I aint beat for prison. it aint worth it, it really aint. I can just take a break. a few months, let shit settle down, and then get high again if i want to but i just need to stop for a little bit.
> 
> and i went to the methadone clinic and upped my dose til i felt normal and here i am, you know? If i had just been able to stop when i "should" have stopped, i woulda been off the shit years ago. But, it toook enough time for me to really realize that time was up, it was seriously, REALLY game over this time. Shit, I got arrested 3 times in 7 months, I was balls to the wall. And when i stopped, it wasnt even "rock bottom" for me. It was just the situation that I finally, TRULY understood that I really did have to quit - for a while, at least .
> 
> But this aitn about me, so ima move on i just wanted to explain and make it clear that I aint the type of person who believes or thinks that its just all about a addict being lazy and too weak to quit. But i also dont believe in the disease model that says you are totally irrespnsible for your actions and that the addict aint got no control wat so ever, becuz i totally disagree with that shit too.
> 
> Anyways, one thing that always just APPALLED me about NA was how anti-ALL-Drugs they are.
> 
> Seriusly, there was this girl in there. She had some kind of horrible stomach problem that she had to get surgery for. They had to cut her open and cut some shit out of her and put some shit in her and god knows wat else, and she was talkin about this at a meeting one night...
> 
> She goes "Im scared becuz they want to give me painkillers for the surgery. I told them that I dont want them and that Ill just go thru the surgery without no pain meds or anasthesia, becuz Im a drug addict."
> 
> And Im thinking, this broad, is soooo brainwashed by this crap that she honestly believes that if a DOCTOR administers a painkiller to her during SURGERY, that it will cause her to relapse? That she is SO powerless, got No control, to the point that its TOTALLY out of her hands whether or not this happens to  her? That its just gonna happen, inevitable?
> 
> And her explanation for bein so concerned about all this, was "You cant give drugs to an addict. you just CANT do it . Im an addict, and he CANT give me DRUGS!"
> 
> And instead of sayin to this girl "Hey, you know, i think its OK for you to let them give you painkillers while they cut you open in surgery. Its kind of medically necessary, so dont be afraid" They were all like "Yea girl, I know! Youre right! Well you just tell that doctor that you wont take drugs!" and so on 8(
> 
> Seriously, they encourage her to risk her health, possibly go into shock from the pain, and suffer extreme agony, and refuse the MEDICALLY NECESSARY TREATMENT, becuz shes a "addict" and you "cant give her drugs"? Its fuckin insane!!
> 
> There is people in there who been in horrible accidents, smashed up their backs, got fused vertebrae an shit like that, and they go in there talkin about how their doctor wants them on pain meds but they wont take them becuz they used to be addicted to COCAINE 20 years ago, and they dont want to relapse. So , they walk with a fuckin cane, or a walker, and live in excruciating pain all day every day, and take so much Advil that it is destroying their liver, and they brag about how they are "clean", and THATS a better life than taking PRESCRIBED drugs under MEDICAL SUPERVISION, to treat your very real, legitimate condition that REQUIRES those medications? I mean it aint like they got a broken arm and can tough it out. They would rather SIGNIFICANTLY lower their quality of life, live in pain and suffering all the time, have a , well, SHITTY life, oh but they are CLEAN though, so its all worth it? Becuz, you know, if you are so damn powerless that yuo cant trust yourself to take the pills as prescribed, its better to live in agony, than to let a trusted friend, husband, wife, etc, keep the pills in a safe place for you and only give them to you as prescribed, so that you aint got to worry about trusting yourself?
> 
> It aint "using" if a doctor prescribes you a painkiller for a medical problem that you didnt fake, that is legitimate and real and needs help. It aint "using" if you got terrible anxiety, so a psych. dr gives you low dose klonopin to take when you get panic attacks. It aint fuckin "USING" if you take a drug to treat a real medical problem. It aint gonna make you start suckin dick on the street for a bag of dope becuz you get surgery and they give you a morphine shot ONCE.
> 
> Its like they support these totally irrational, ridiculous, paranoid delusions of all these horrible , terrible things that TOTALLY WILL HAPPEN if you just let ONE tiny molecule of ANY drug get into your body, for ANY reason at all. Instead of sayin "Hey, you know, we are all reasonable people here---Dont beat yourself up over this--You have multiple sclerosis. Its okay to take the goddamn Vicodin when you really start to hurt" they say "yea! Go you! Fight those addiction demons! dont give up, you got to stay strong, and not let your guard down! That doctor whose BEGGING you to just take the fuckin prescription becuz your body is in so much pain that its making you weaker and weaker---hes just the voice of your addiction talking. thats just your bad  side tryina convince you that its OK to use "just once"! but it AINT! You gotta fight the enemy! Keep up the good work and throw away that pill bottle, even though your kids are watching you waste away physically and cry every night becuz they can see how much you are hurting--But remember, RECOVERY IS YOUR  NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, More than ANYTHING else, so just keep up the good fight!"
> 
> Its seriously fucking TWISTED to me. Like that shit is on the verge of psychotic the way that they encourage this totally insane thinking and convince people to deny themself from things that they legitimately need.
> 
> its one thing if you got a mild injury that you can live with the pain and you choose not to go on pain management becuz you think you might end up needing the pills more than you actually do. Thats a legit concern "Hey, im a ex oxycontin addict, and this pain really aint that bad, its just more of a ache. A lot of people experience this pain, and this aint really severe chronic pain, some doctors might not even think i need any meds at all for it, so even though this one is givin me a script for Percocet, I think I should probably just try to do without it." Thats a responsible choice, even tho I might not do the same thing since I believe everybody got a right to pain relief, and shouldnt deny themself just becuz of past sins, but I mean, NA applies that same thinking of "Just take some tylenol!" to people with SERIOUS, CHRONIC conditions that should be on MASSIVE doses of painkillers.
> 
> i cant stand to see people suffer like that, for no good fuckin reason. NA breeds so much fear into people that its like they afraid to make any move except one thats approved by NA. They dont want to choose on their own, they got to do wat the "program" dictates they should do in that situation, you know? its really, seriously just sick.
> 
> I cant even comprehend the idea that a reasonable person could possibly believe that a 80 year old grandfather who used to be addicted to heroin in his 30's, should deny himself pain meds for his arthritis and hip replacement becuz "once an addict, always an addict" and he still cant take the risk of "relapsing", becuz the tiniest little taste of any drug will set off his "fuck it" switch and he will instantly turn into a fienning junkie all over again. its just insane, ridiculous, and goddamn cruel to teach people this shit and make them believe it.


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## Khadijah

Na, I aint tweaking. I dont do uppers and never have. How long you been on bl for yo? i have always made long posts. this aint somethin new. and it aint related to no kind of drug use. i dont even get high these days. that post really aint contributing much yo, u could ask that in PM cuz u know it aint got shit to do with the topic


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## tony314

Replacing booze with gallons of coffee and cartons of smokes is all they are doing.


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## felix77

After 75 years people still think AA works even though it has the same or lower success rate of all other methods? It is just a crazy support group that mixes government programs with forced religion.


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## coldbleed

i  call catholic priest  hood the gay AA


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## coldbleed

I'm going to go and get some free coffee and visit a friend


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## phyllisphish><>

whoa! An enlightened and interesting discussion, but one that only serves to highlight the failure on the part of many non-addicts to understand the nature of addiction - shame.  All I have to say is this: much as there are many reasons why an addiction to God or AA meetings is not a good thing, for a lot of folks it`s infinitely better than the alternative, whyever the heck it works. You`ve gotta be pretty low to go down the AA road in the first place, so I`m fairly sure it is a step up from rock bottom. Whether that ladder goes anywhere useful, however....


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## rollingstoned!

For those who can't move on, lots of loops are good. For those who can, lots of loops are bad. 

AA and God are both loops.


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## entheogensmurf

My apologies in that I have no researched the legally available alternatives deeply enough to hold a solid opinion, beyond that of:
1. AA is bunk and while some from the org are to me obviously caring and seek to help for worthy reasons, it does more harm than good.
2. That at the core, any system that has a person surrender to any concept of higher power in place of attempting to trust in themselves, the people capable of assisting them and "loved ones," is doomed to fail and ultimately be a source of harm or energy and will best spent on credible ventures. This is a topic I do intend on becoming obsessively entrenched in eventually for a variety of reasons.

My delving into the alternatives with the use of psychoactive substances as a tool with the treatment of abuse and addiction is quite vast, which has long since been quite clear with indication of potential and already proven effectiveness.



raver2008 said:


> Pretty interesting article. A few ppl I know are trying to get me to attend meetings with them because they work so great for them, but I dont know if I even belive in god so I cant see it helping me any. Are most group meetings all basically the same in which some sort of god or whatever is what there based around?



With just a short search, some of these ring a bell:
Top 7 Best Alcoholics Anonymous Alternatives List
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=28817

Again, I need to do the reading to provide more opinion beyond the above.




oliphill said:


> Good article. The fact is 100's of thousands of people have completely turned their lives around and often saved their life because of AA and NA meetings. Regardless if the philosophies behind it and the "Vaguely defined higher power", it does work and help a lot of people.
> 
> I can't personally get my head round it yet and can't seem to make it work for me. I can imagine that a lot of people of this fourm are in the same boat. As, making a very big generalisation here, we want to tackle our problems our own way. I'm basing this, loosely, on the fact that by becoming a member of a forum like bluelight, one has already shown that they want to do their own research into drugs, alcohol, the effects and problems caused by them and how to get better.
> 
> I still attend meetings, with the aim to try to make them work for me, but no luck thus far.



For the very few that AA help so to speak, it is easy enough to address, however, thank goodness another far more articulate did so, providing the justice to the importance of the topic

The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment by A. Orange 
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html



> Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.
> 
> A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts. That is, out of any given group of alcoholics or drug addicts, approximately 5% per year will just wise up, and quit killing themselves. They just get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and of watching their friends die. (And something between 1% and 3% of their friends do die annually, so that is a big incentive.) They often quit with little or no official treatment or help. Some actually detox themselves on their own couches, or in their own beds, or locked in their own closets. Often, they don't go to a lot of meetings. They just quit, all on their own, or with the help of a couple of good friends who keep them locked up for a few days while they go through withdrawal. A.A. and N.A. true believers insist that addicts can't successfully quit that way, but they do, every day.
> 
> 
> ...an alcoholism treatment program that seems to have a 5% success rate probably really has a zero percent success rate — it is just taking credit for the spontaneous remission that is happening anyway. It is taking the credit for the people who were going to quit anyway. And a program that has less than a five percent success rate, like four or three, may really have a negative success rate — it is actually keeping some people from succeeding in getting clean and sober. Any success rate that is less than the usual rate of spontaneous remission indicates a program that is a real disaster and is hurting the patients.



The citations are available for the claims made in that article.



oliphill said:


> Anyone checked out S.M.A.R.T before? (Self management and recovery training). Similar type of thing, with Live online meetings, which I can imagine a lot of people on here would be interested in.  Link: http://www.smartrecovery.org/



No, however, I will sooner than later (with 2 months).



oliphill said:


> I can't personally get my head round it yet and can't seem to make it work for me


The psychology behind AA is something of which that can be extracted and analyzed. I am certain, or consider it quite probable that you could both understand the concepts and with illumination apparent, become aware why it is not something you can make work work for you.

Perhaps in the coming weeks I will start up my project to explain this as it appears to not be answered in the way I see fit and to the fruition for communities such as BL. I can see that quite a few do comprehend the core aspects already, so at least I know there are some out there already there. 
One piece to this is that one need only stand back and look at AA and run a comparative analysis between it and that of the function of at least the majority if not ALL theistic religions, with special attention to the Abrahamic ones (Islam and Christianity as the final two of the three as template examples).



Book PLUG!
You can find this on various places such as Amazon and Green Wood:






> *Psychedelic Medicine* [Two Volumes]*: New Evidence for Hallucinogenic Substances as Treatments *
> Thomas B. Roberts, Michael Winkelman



There are more to read out there, though, this one provides a great starting point.


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## dankstersauce

I can't hate on AA too much, it did help me out during a crazy period in my life and I met some really good people.

But there are a couple things that made me stop going.  The main reasons being that the whole "once an addict always an addict" thing.  To me it was just a self fulfilling prophecy, like you get told SO fuckin many times that "you have no control", "if you drink or drug just a little you'll go back to addiction because YOU HAVE NO CONTROL" etc.  And at the time I was living in a sober halfway house and I saw guys live out this idea over and over again.  If they used (even just a little) these guys would get a "fuck it all" attitude and go out and use like crazy.  IMHO I think this was more of these guys living out the brainwashing than the beast that is addiction.  Like someone who only wanted a beer and made a decision to drink and then thought "oh shit I relapsed....I guess I got no other option than to go smoke a boulder of crack."

IMHO it doesn't do much good to tell someone who is down and out that they'll NEVER be able to live a normal life again.  Just implanting the idea that you're fucked up, everything is your fault,  in the fragile mind of someone who's hit bottom is dangerous.


Since initially getting sober I've been able to use drugs and alcohol with control.  I've realized that labeling myself an addict (forever) is a fucking idiotic idea....it makes it so I can never move forward from my past.  

At the same time I've seen some people really thrive in AA, so if it works for you rock it out.  But it doesn't really work for me anymore.


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## Khadijah

Yea dankstersauce you said the same things i been sayin, i 100% believe its a self fulfilling prophecy and people talkin themselfs into failing. The "always an addict" thing is just like havin a handy convenient excuse always there waitin for you....Its like the the option to use is always right there for you becuz you always an addict....

thats why I hate goin to NA meetings , but i am forced to go for probation....I cant stand to introduce myself as "an addict" so I always just go and say i am a "visitor" becuz I AINT a addict. I aint addicted to heroin no more. Mentally, i am a completely different person with that compulsion and obsession to use, light years away from who i am now. i dont think like a addict, act like one, or feel like one in any way....I am me, i am PAST that shit....I aint gonna PERMANENTLY IDENTIFY MYSELF as somethin so NEGATIVE....The point is to RECOVER and get PAST it...not spend your whole life with your entire identity tied up in believing you are just a helpless "addict"....i aint down with that i cant get with it and i believe its horribly negative to a persons recovery to have their MAIN identity, the ENTIRE thing that they identify themself as, be "ADDICT" instead of mother, father, hard worker, artist, musician, doctor, or WTFever you are--You SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT.....And if you ARE still addicted....It shouldnt be the FIRST thing you identify yourself as.

I am lacey....And I am a independent, strong minded person...soon to be mom...part of a loving family....loving wife to a great man...artist...beautician....and formerly addicted to heroin.....Not, forget all the other shit about me that makes ME who i am as a person, "i am just a drug addict."

na, that shit dont fly, and it aint a positive way to look at yourself.

the whole idea that addicts suffer from so much shame...Well maybe its becuz every fucking day they hear at meetings, "Yea, you might be a successful doctor...you might have a house, a good family...you might be clean 5 years off heroin....BUT YOURE STILL AN ADDICT AND ALWAYS WIL BE!!" 

Like any time you finally DO accompllish something, not only is it totally canceled out by the fact that "you may be all that but you always gonna be a DRUG ADDICT" and ALSO the whole idea that "You didnt do this yourself. You didnt accomplish this. You didnt graduate medical school becuz you had the power to. you didnt quit heroin becuz you had the strenth to do it. you aint got none of this becuz you earned it and deserve it and made it happen for yourself--The only reason you got it is becuz GOD gave it to you, YOU had nothing to do with it..."

way to help build up someoens self esteem....

I see so much talk and behavior at meetings that helps to keep peoples sense of shame and low self worth goin strong...and that shit makes me mad becuz its suppose to be about getting free from that but yet all you ever hear is the bullshit fake self deprecating shit like "We a bunch of manipulators in here! we just some selfish egomaniacs, lets face it, right!" and all this talk about how "we" are no good, and just a buncha liars and frauds, and etc...Even though we AINT usin no more, that somehow all those negative things are still with us.... ADICTION AINT A CHARACTER DISEASE....it aint like after you quit using, you are still a horrible, shady, sneaky, lying, manipulative, selfish, self centered, big-ego-havin son of a bitch....Well, i know *I* aint.....

You should have humility sure, but i think the amount of people in NA that strive for TRUE humility is rare, and they rather just talk shit about themslefs -- "Im a drug addict---It means Im a arrogant bastard!" but you can always sense the kind of satisfied feeling underneath--they take pride in that label, and teh whole "Im still a addict" thing, they use it as a license to still be a dick in alot of cases.

I aint gonna make ANOTHEr booklong post about this shit. But im just sayin. I went to a meeting last night and it was horrible . I wnted to just walk out it was so shitty. But ih ad to stay to get my paper signed for probation.

One woman was bitching abotu how at one meeting she goes to, people bitch about their jobs and shes like "i just dont wanna hear about it! I dont care! i dont care where you work at, or wat happened at work today thats upsetting you! It shouldnt be about your job in NA!"

And im just thinking....BITCH.....You are the same one who asks to share, and then whines about how your room mate keeps not closing the bathroom door all the way when she goes to the bathroom, and its really upsetting yuo and you feel like youre gonna use becuz it makes you so annoyed, and you got a burning deisre to get high becuz your roomate just pisses you off so much and you just need to vent, and bitch bitch bitch.....

YOU aint got no right to tell someone "i dont wanna hear it"...All these meetigns ARE, is a bunch of whiney-ass people who want to blame EVERyFUCKINGTHING on their addiction and the so called personality flaws of addiction...and just bitch and complain and piss and moan about EVERY little THING that happens to them, and then justify how it makes them want to use, and so they had to go to a meeting today otherwise the fact that their friend keeps putting the toilet paper roll on backwards so it rolls from the top instead of the bottom, is gonna make them go out and get high......

It just gets so. fucking. old.....


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## jspun

There are things I don't like about 12 step recovery, the tendency to be overly dogmatic, the meetings with controlling oldtimers who only let their friends share, ect, ect... but their are alot of good things. I'm against the whole court ordered part. The truth is, a majority relapse, but I've seen remarkable changes in those truly motivated. If some one is forced to go to a meeting and is you, I would suggest young peoples' meetings. Down here in southern CA there are some AA meetings that are full of beautiful young people were lots of hooking up goes on. In LA you have meetings full of young hispters from both fellowships (and CA in San Diego). San Francisco in the late 90s had a vibrant artist, straightedge punk scene, bicycle messanger, ect... in NA. Found young people hipster scenes in NYC and Seattle too. The cool thing is being in a city were you don't know anyone and having people to associate with (had that experience in Hawaii- found people to surf with, went to a rave, ect...) Point is there are alot of different meetings with different vibes. And there are shity meetings were people bitch, belittle newcommers, ignore out of towners, and sick old timer men prey on vulnerable young newcommer women. It just a matter of finding the ones that work for you and that might take alittle traveling to different parts of town or different towns nearby and/or asking.

But if someone doesn't want to be there they shouldn't be forced. 

The way it works is simple- one addict helping another.

Is it full of brainwashing and slogans, of course.

Is there alot of bullshit that pisses me off-absolutely.

*Lacey*


> You should have humility sure, but i think the amount of people in NA that strive for TRUE humility is rare, and they rather just talk shit about themslefs -- "Im a drug addict---It means Im a arrogant bastard!" but you can always sense the kind of satisfied feeling underneath--they take pride in that label, and teh whole "Im still a addict" thing, they use it as a license to still be a dick in alot of cases.



Unfortunately, this is all to true at many meetings. The people that are humble are usually the ones that reach out to newcommers after the meetings, not trying to sound good for the ladies (or men) as the case may be. Sharing can become just as addicting as dope for many.

A majority of the young probably don't belong there, but compared to faith based program which a sizable portion of middle American courts are sentencing tweakers, AA/NA is the easier, softer way. 

The thing I like about it is that you meet people from every walk of life. 

Ignore what I just wrote, the question is, why are the majority of 12 stepers in North America- roughly 1/2 the world total? People in other parts of the world figure out ways to moderate- especially alcohol? Maybe its this countries puritanical streak, its tendency towards prohibition.

What I would like to see is something with the social/ (true) spiritual aspects of AA that help people achieve moderation- OA kind of does that- can't stop eating. Problem is that moderation management didn't work out so well.

By the way, I've talked to hundreds about my addiction to posting on bluelight but staying sober- I've only met 1 or 2 out of dozens who have heard of bluelight- and these are young hard drug users/ newcommers. One that had heard of it was into electronica and E/ other psychedelics.

Also, not 1 person new what an RC was- although too much talk about drugs trips people out at the meetings.


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## erizzle

*Why recovery is so unsuccessful*

I have two DUI's already and I just turned 21 a few short weeks ago.  After my second one I didn't have much of a choice except to attend court mandated drug and alcohol classes.  After only a few classes I figured out what AA, the 12 step program, etc are all about.  These programs are designed to leave people feeling as if they are addicted which my counselors were never bashful about admitting.  I entered the classes with a fairly open mind, and if nothing else, I knew the classes would be a new life experience.  I also knew that I had no intention of completely discontinuing my alcohol use.  You can call me stupid, immature, whatever you will because you’re entitled to an opinion.  Please, don’t call me an addict.  

Before I go out at night I intend on drinking excess amounts of alcohol to get drunk.  I know fully well the impairments and the risks associated with binge drinking, but it’s a conscious calculated personal decision made in hopes that my night only consists of fun, which 90% of the time happens to be the case.  Drinking with my friends is something I enjoy on occasion that gives me great pleasure.  Imagine Travis Pastrana and what he does on a regular basis.  He recognizes the risk he is taking before attempting an insane motorcycle jump.  I’m also certain no matter how many bones he breaks it is not going to stop him from enjoying his life to the fullest extent by taken some risk.  

Anyone that has been through the higher power-submitting your will bull shit classes knows that it’s a joke.  Studies have shown proof that devout religious beliefs are tantamount to less educated peoples.  Intelligent people find it harder to put their entire faith into an unproven belief system with inherent flaws.  The government funded counselors are no different than preachers.  They only know one way and cannot fathom anything beyond what their addiction bibles say.  I honestly feel sorry for people who are having problems with their addiction seeking help from this type of facility.  I wouldn’t say I’m a conspiracy theorist, but my honest belief is these facilities were designed to keep themselves full of sniveling addicts who have been told their whole lives, “You are sick, with a disease.  Your whole life’s focus needs to be your addiction and living with it.”  Instead of offering a cure for their so called “disease”, the counselors introduce patients to a lifetime of self loathing and pity.  

People who have diseases search for strength within themselves to overcome their ailment in hopes they can someday go back to living their lives as a healthy person.  So, even if we accept the so called idea of the disease model pertaining to addiction, it is still a rather contradictory affair.  

The best medicine I have found for overcoming problems within one’s own life is through self introspection.  People with a decent head on their shoulders can sort through their problems on their own.  Would it be so wild to suggest that a recovering addict can overcome their addiction whilst planning to indulge in substance in the future?  Newer neuroscience studies show that damage caused to neural connections in the brain by addiction is reversible.  The studies claim the brain will eventually revert back to a state not unlike the one before the addiction occurred.  I hypothesize if such an attitude were taken towards addiction we would see a dramatic decrease in complete and total relapse.  
Lastly, I would just like to offer my thoughts on the word addiction.  Addiction is oftentimes not very well defined because it is essentially indefinable.  Imagine the scope of a word that must encompass every substance, at a particular point in time, while still meeting the needs of each person’s unique situation.  It is impossible!  There are only degrees of addiction.  It is rather frustrating when counselors try to diagnose every patient with the same worn out definition and method.  Even more frustrating is the way counselors give substance abusers a scapegoat by telling them it is not their fault they are addicted and they are not weak.  I have some harsh reality for you, if you are addicted; it is because you have been weak.  The good news is people don’t have to be weak if they choose not to be.  Everyone possesses the power of choice.  I have listened to addicts claiming they have no choice, and counselors encouraging them to admit they are powerless.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.  Someone claiming they can’t stop a certain behavior even when they so dearly want to is lying to everyone, including themselves.  When I hear people say, “I can’t” I know they really mean, “I don’t want to stop quite yet.”  The power to stop addictive behavior resides in every healthy person, it is a matter of choice, and when to make that choice.


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## Khadijah

i agree with a lot of the shit you sayin....I dont believe that addiction=weak how ever. But i am a FORMER addict (And i definately, absolutely was a addict, i never had no problem admittin that) that got off the shit and still used from time to time. I stayed clean for months n months an then got high as hell for a day. Shoot all the dope i want to . re visit my old friend for old time sake. And then that was it. next day was back to regular non drug life. and it was totally , completely controlled....And i resent the people tryna tell me that it wasnt, an that it was just my adiction, and all that bullshit. 

Bein addicted aint a life time condition. not everybody is an addict. But somebody who is one, can also stop bein one, and use normally again someday. its absolutely true and i seen it in my self and a few other people. 

the thing that i had a issue with thought which i can understand you NOT understanding, is when you are addicted bad and just stuck in that life style, it aint a matter of choice all the time....you dont want to do these things but you just watchin your self do it, played out like on a movie screen. i could see my self doin all this shit and knowin it was headin for disaster and i honestly just couldnt do a fuckin thing to stop it. it was like livin in a slow motion train wreck.

you aint got experience with heroin addiction and like you said all addictions aint the same...at certain times in my use i could control shit...but other times i couldnt..it sounds so stupid becuz of course i had free will but it was lie my free will was programmed to be on auto pilot or somethin.

But i did eventually break free from that and I dont use no more cuz of things in my life but i do have the ability to use without becomin a miserable addict again...you got to re claim your brain an your will. I agree that its there tho, an AA an NA just make you feel like shit and think that you cant do nothing for your self.


Think about how many people with addictions are smart, intelligent amazing talented people.

Put them on a program that keeps them focused on "RECOVERY" an "THEIR ADDICTION" for the rest of their life and they aint got time to use the talents an skills and brain that they have becusz alll their energy is going to the program and to stayin clean, etc. becuz they get taught that they NEED to devote every fuckin waking minute to recovery or they will fail. bullshit.....think of all the un realized potential that is wasted becuz ppl are using their time on NA and AA isntead of devoting it to makin themself better individually and not just a little program drone....


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## DubCity23

Lacey arent you on methadone? trying taking one shot of dope being off it and tell me how it goes. The book says rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed are path. Its so fucking true i have seen so many people get there life back by working a program of recovery. Myself included went from being a homeless junkie crackhead to having a car house girl friends family and everything good in my life back. But i know by trial and error and countless countless rehabs that if i pick up i cant stop. I have a disease a physical allergy to drugs and alchohol. I didnt believe it at first either but after 15 rehabs and it getting worst and worst everytime i use no matter how hard i try to do it once. When i pick up i cant stop and my self will and sick addict mind and thinking makes horrible terrible decisions time after time. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  If there was a way to shoot dope just one time i would have found it. one meeting one hour a day .. helping a drunk... pray .. live by spirtual principals and work a good program and you will find a whole nother way of life. Being a dope fiend is no way of living and I dont know how not to be a dope fiend if im not in AA. seeing ppl try and try to quit on self will is fucking sad man it never works. maybe one in a thousand. And people who can shoot heroin once a month arent addicts or alchoholics. When an alchoholic shoots dope or takes a drink they CANT stop. Its fucking impossible dude. i never thought i wuld be saying this but its so fucking true. If i forget where i came from and that i cant have one and become completely complacent and think i can handle just one i will wind up dead in jail or in rehab if im lucky. I shoot crack and heroin lacey .. i get fuckn high girl. You really need to do some more research and get off the done and try shooting dope. Your a addict. Whether you want to be in active addiction or living your life is a choice. Once you put that first whatever in you and the phenomnon of craving kicks in its no longer a choice. i thought the same way as u until i ended up in rehab 20 times trying to do it MY way. I have to get out of the way and out of my head cause its a bad neighborhood up there and give my life to something greater than myself. A god of my understanding not jesus christ. sorry for the long post uneducated comments just really make me mad. People pay 50,000 dollars to go to rehab and be pointed at AA. Why do all the top rehabs point to AA? Cause it fucking works.


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## DubCity23

Lacey you are addicted to methadone. Of course you dont have to worry about dope. You get your fix every morning. Now if your posts were of you being clean or shooting dope once a month maybe you would have a valid arguement. But you get a fix EVERYDAY. Come off the done and do nothing to stay sober .. I really want to know how it works. Because its sad but true lacey it wont work. Youll be shooting dope.


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## dragonslayer428

NewPhone said:


> This thread is wack and a lot of supportive replies give 12 step meetings a bad rep.  AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion - we don't tell people how great the program is etc and then try and impose it on them or explain why they need it, since we don't label people as alcoholics.  If they see what we are like sober and want what we have they can have it by "taking the steps we took which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery.". As far as methadone and bupe go, good luck.  I tried bupe maintenance and know multiple people that did methadone and it didn't work for me.  Every single person I knew on the methadone program expressed regret in getting on methadone when they realized how much harder it is to get off of methadone it is than to gett off of heroin.  Also, let it be known that AA and the 12 steps are not the only way to recover.  There is Rational Recovery, etc.  If you can drink or shoot dope like a gentleman, my hat is off to you, but I can't.  I find it highly amusing that people who care so little about AA have spend so much time on here telling people how stupid it is.  Why bother?  And finally, how does AA work?  A mystery?  We think not.  There is in fact a whole chapter in the big book respectively titled "how it works".  Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path.  Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.  BASICALLY it is not one thing that works, it is the program as a whole.  "Half measures availed us nothing".  I actually know somebody who, being a bottomless addict and drunk, worked the program to prove it doesn't work and guess what?  It worked.  "It works if you work it."



Very well said!  I totally agree.


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## K12

The secret of AA's success can be found in AA's new slogan.

"Abandon Logic, All Yee That Enter Here"


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## Exploder

*The problem...*

... I always had problems with quantifying 12 step success rates is how you determine success in the first place. 1 day/week/year/10 years/life time sober = success?

I was around AA pretty heavy (meeting a day) for much of the last 4-5 years. Eventually I grew out of it (or grew up you might say).


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## Khadijah

Oh , L-O-FUCKIN-L dubcity23. I cant even do nothing but laugh. I aint even gonna bother to go into the factual logical mistakes in your post like the hilarious concept of being "allergic" to drugs and how apparently you are unable to understand the difference between addiction and dependence. Im sure plenty of other posters on here can have a field day tearin that shit apart, but Ima just skip over to your second post. 

Let me tell you somethin. Preach all you want, becuz I am happy and I am successful and I am clean. I really aint interested in hearing about if you consider me clean or not , or your predictions for my future. Im happier than i ever been in my life, Im content, Im satisfied, and most important, I know in my heart that I am absolutely clean, and I also know that i will never, ever go back to the life that I use to live when i was addicted to heroin, and thats all that matters. 

Just for the record, The person who gotta say the kind of shit that you do to other people, is usually the person who is tryna mask their own insecurity by pointin fingers at others. Im 101% sure of myself and absolutely know that I aint got to fear none of the shit that your AA crystal ball is seein in my future, so keep flappin those gums, I aint worried.

It must suck to claim to be so happy with your program but still feel the need to put other people down who free themself from addiction in a different way than you chose to. I aint sure how good the program is workin for you if you got the attitude that you do. It seems like you got some problems with people who can be happy and succeed at gettin off drugs in a different way than you did. That dont sound too healthy to me. Im sorry that you are so negative. I hope you can mellow out and learn to stop bein so angry and judgmental in the future, trust me it will make you a lot less miserable.


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## DubCity23

lacey k said:


> Oh , L-O-FUCKIN-L dubcity23. I cant even do nothing but laugh. I aint even gonna bother to go into the factual logical mistakes in your post like the hilarious concept of being "allergic" to drugs and how apparently you are unable to understand the difference between addiction and dependence. Im sure plenty of other posters on here can have a field day tearin that shit apart, but Ima just skip over to your second post.
> 
> Let me tell you somethin. Preach all you want, becuz I am happy and I am successful and I am clean. I really aint interested in hearing about if you consider me clean or not , or your predictions for my future. Im happier than i ever been in my life, Im content, Im satisfied, and most important, I know in my heart that I am absolutely clean, and I also know that i will never, ever go back to the life that I use to live when i was addicted to heroin, and thats all that matters.
> 
> Just for the record, The person who gotta say the kind of shit that you do to other people, is usually the person who is tryna mask their own insecurity by pointin fingers at others. Im 101% sure of myself and absolutely know that I aint got to fear none of the shit that your AA crystal ball is seein in my future, so keep flappin those gums, I aint worried.
> 
> It must suck to claim to be so happy with your program but still feel the need to put other people down who free themself from addiction in a different way than you chose to. I aint sure how good the program is workin for you if you got the attitude that you do. It seems like you got some problems with people who can be happy and succeed at gettin off drugs in a different way than you did. That dont sound too healthy to me. Im sorry that you are so negative. I hope you can mellow out and learn to stop bein so angry and judgmental in the future, trust me it will make you a lot less miserable.



Wasnt putting you down at all. Just stating the truth. I thought the same way as you when i was on the done and my first 9 treatments where i thought the same as you.


Sorry if you took it that way and by allergy i mean once i start i cant stop no matter which way i try it just aint gonna work.

Your not off drugs lacey... your on methadone!! Theyre maintaining you. Its fucking aweomse that you dont have to live [that skandalous fuckin life anymore like we all have... but when you come off the done like i did 3 timees its soooo much fucking different. I aint speakin from hearsay girl im speakin from experience and seein thousands of ppl try every which way to kick the dope and nothing working unless they workin a program. And no its not the only thing that works but its the only thing that works for me cause my thinking is fucked upp.

I meant no offense at all i just speakin the truth unless your a one in a million case but chance are you arent.

Do you plan on stayin on the done forever? What you gonna do when you gotta kick for a month? Then after that when all the chemicals in ur head are fucked up and ur depressed as ever. I been there and done it, it fucking sucks. Sorry if I came across that way but your doing the same in your posts . Some 16 year old kid is gonna read ur post on a HARM REDUCTION forum and take them for fact when theyre so incorrect, biased and delusional it aint even funny. AA has millions of members worldwide who it saved there life. Once u come off the done and u stay clean(which aint gonna happen less u change somethin) u can talk all the shit on AA u want..


Its like the sniffin oxy - sniffin dope - ill never use a needle - shootin dope cycle. It happens no matter how much fuckin willpower someone has. Im done this site blows now that the stamp thread is gone.

I use to love ur posts but u aint clean takin methadone everyday... Read your posts... Im clean but i take methadone everyday because ive tryed MY way without a maintence program or AA to stay clean and it never worked.Methadone is a drug!!! ahhh fuck ur clean off the needle but u aint clean off drugs!!! A pothehad, acid eatin hippie is cleaner then u! methadone is a fuckin hard opiate lol jesus


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## New

AA sucks at saving lives. That's why there is such a high turnover rate. If watching countless people relapse and die while propping up your own ego by predicting everyone else's future keeps you sober, so be it. But don't tell me it has to do with a religious program that was ineffective from day 1.


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## Exploder

I agree with a little of everything that most people have said. Yes the book says "rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path". Why I doubted such was when I realized I probably couldn't follow that path. 

I strayed from the path after 3 years of seeing people in 3 or 4 different "intensive" programs get better and worse. 

I saw people that got balls deep in the program relapse. I saw people that didnt do shit relapse. I saw people that nearly killed themselves get better without the 12 steps. I saw people get better with the 12 steps. In the end it seemed like people got better or worse and it wasn't through following (or not following) the program. 

One of my ex's drank herself into kidney failure. Then one day decided she didn't want to do it any more. Now she drinks socially.


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## cryan

In Lacey's defense, I was on sub maintenance for a year after I failed at sobriety through NA.  I am going to say something right now I have not admitted yet outside of my own brain. While on Suboxone I'd take short breaks (so itd clear out of my system) and take a few pills. Now that in itself, no big deal, cuz I had the subs to go back to. BUT I have done it a few times since being off subs as well. As much as I do admittedly hate it (sobriety, that is), I have been able to control it and am still sober today, RIGHT NOW. 

Even if I do eventually become an addict again, the fact that I could use even once without falling back into addiction disproves your theory that all addicts can not pick up even once, or else will fail. 

And I think this is the major flaw with NA/AA. It's the helpless attitude towards addiction, the total stigma that you will eventually fail, that discredits the program. But I've already posted about that. NOT that I didn't enjoy the community of likeminded people through NA. It did help very much, but overall, my recovery was all me with a LOT of support and pushing by my husband. For some it works, for most it doesn't, and thats pretty much how EVERYTHING works with us humans. What works for one individual don't always work for another.

Just wanted to throw that out there, and reiterate what has been said by others.


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## jspun

Lacey, a few things: I was on MMT for 6 years. Made my life productive, went back to school and became an RN- all on methadone. 135 mg max dose. Finally I tapered and my last dose was feb, 2008. 

I consider you clean, and your story is inspirational in that you used once and stayed abstinent- I think if NA has a fault is that it instills guilt in people, so they go on self-destructive/ suicidal relapses, atleast thats my theory. People put too much emphasis on time instead of focusing on today.

People taking pain meds or other Rx drugs in time of need has always been sanctioned- remember these are all suggestions, not orders. There is a pamphlet called "in times of illness" that goes into this at length.

From someone that is connected to the decisions of the WSO- World Service Organization that meets every 2 years to develop the decisions, positions, what effects the group as a whole worldwide- they have released or are releasing a statement saying those on replacement therapy remaining compliant are considered clean, if I'm not mistaken.

Your are a member when you say you are. Same as when you are clean- people ideally aren't suppossed to preach, they are supposed to share what worked for them and listen in a non-judgemental manner.

AA doesn't know everything= they admit "we know only a little". More will be revealed- the point is NA/AA needs free thinkers now more than ever.

The treatment facilities- don't get me started. There is a treatment-industrial complex that people like Dr. Drew use for their own financial gain. It is to their advantage in places like that to convince you your an addict, keep you in aftercare, basically swindle you out of your money- when AA is free!

If you want to get clean- 12 step won't work. You need a willingness (not talking bout you Lacey- your a ray of hope that moderation might be feasible- I consider you clean- I know how methadone works- people in the program against it either 1.) never been on it so they parot what others say, 2.) Been on it, got locked up and had to quit cold turkey, 3.) Decided to stop because they took the medical advice of abovesaid idiots and jumped off rather than tappering. When you are pregnant YOU DO NOT WANT TO STOP. That is very, very dangerous for the featus- it can precipitate early labour and still born children- thats why pregnant women get prference on clinics with waitlists. There is little effect to the featus- and they can be weaned with little complications.

Point is if you need to get clean but can't- wake up, get a bag, get right, and keep going to meetings is a strategy you can try- my suggestion is to be honest and hang with the non-judgemental ones. Eventually, I believe if one of you is in that situation, you'll get a window of opportunity. Besides, if your a new commer, you are the most important person at the mtg, might as well keep your celebrity status going. LOL- but there is a benefit to going to meetings high, you'll get clean. The funny thing is, meetings used to kick in my nod.

This is a very important point: Addiction is a disease were self diagnosis is not only important, it is essential

I'm an addict and need meetings. I only talk about myself. Its a program of attraction and suggestions. When people tell you you got to do this and that or else, its time to tell them politely "fuck off."

I have seen scandalous fucked up dopefiends turn their life around- off the street. The only way one can say, and again they have to be sure they are adicts first- too many misdiagnosed people out their, especially among the young, they can't say it doesn't work unless they have worked the steps and are practicing the principles today. People put too much emphasis on time: especial cult figure like old timers who crave the adoration and worship. No ones perfect but those you have to stay away from. The quite oldtimer who reaches out- you can sense the good, see it in their lives. No ones perfect

Good job- it sounds like you are doing good. Harm reduction is supposed to include an option for moderation. The secret is that in Europe moderation has worked in several cases of former problem drinkers.

I just know I cant do it- waiting for you all to come up with a reliable method that works to restore one to moderate drinking, heroin use, coke use, ect... I haven't found a way so I don't use- but I still read about drugs and am commited to harm reduction. 

Lacey, God Bless you and power to you for standing up and sharing your experience even though it contradicts NA dogma- that is being open minded truly (as in honesty, openmidedness, and willingness.) So everybody stop hating on Lacey and focus on your own damn recovery. Judging others is not a principal of the program.

My favorite saying: "NA works despite the people in it."

I can't use successfully yet (today) so I need NA.

Thats just me


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## Khadijah

Dubcity your truth aint the absolute truth. its true for YOU. It aint true for me, and it aint true for many of the other people i know. 

For example...if without methadone, " i will be shooting dope" tell me why there has been many times that i had a problem with the Dr's office, they fucked up my script, etc,  and i couldnt take my dose for a few days...and i had to go without it, completely opiate free for a day or two or 3, why wasnt i out shooting dope? why wasnt i runnin around like a chicken with my head cut off, lookin to cop somethin so I wouldnt get sick?

Why did i just deal with it and wait til i could get shit worked out and get my done becuz I aint the same addict I use to be? Why didnt i relapse, freak out cuz i wasnt able to handle not havin it? Its happened more than once and I dealt with it and waited til i got my script and that was it. I didnt go out and shoot dope and go back to dopefeen mode. 

But even more important, if a person who aint on methadone/sub, and aint a member of NA cant get and stay clean? how do you explain my man? If the only reason people who dont do NA can stay off dope is methadone or sub, how do you explain his story? here it is: Me and him were both dope feens together sharin our habit til it got mad out of control. we both quit at the same time, september of last year. He went to a clinic and did the 60 day detox and got off it. Since then, he aint takin no methadone , sub, nothing. Dont even smoke weed or drink. He dont go to NA, he didnt go to rehab, he dont do shit. He just lives life, normal. And , to add to that?

All those times i was talkin about over the last year or so where about 5 times in that year I used dope? He did it with me. Except he WASNT on methadone, or nothing at all. We got high together, had our fun, and that was it. I was on done but he wasnt. he was able to get high every so often and forget about it, WITHOUT bein on any type of other drugs at all. 

So if your excuse for me bein able to do that is that its "only becuz i was on methadone", wats the excuse for him?

Why aint he shooting dope, just like you are so damn certain I would be? By the way, both of us aint even doing the occasional thing these days. Im still on done, he still off it, and we still both dont use jack shit. Soo....explain that one?

The explanation is that the shit you believe, It just aint true for everybody yo. You got no idea how annoying the attitude is when you and other people say shit like you just KNOW about my life and the shit I do, or would do in a certain situation. especially becuz the situations that you claim to know the out come of, HAVE already happened to me, and i didnt react like that. So its mad disrespectful actin like you know this shit about other people and their life. You really dont--you only know the shit that works for YOU. You dont know wat works for me yo, and its just foolish to think you do. Its also one of the main reasons that so many people get turned off of NA and AA, becuz they tired of people gettin in their face actin like they know it all. it really makes the program look like shit and gives people just one more reason to avoid it. 

Anyways. Just for the record, I aint on MMT. I dont like gettin into it on here. Becuz to be honest I feel embarassed and I dont want people to think of me as some type of , i dont know...I dont like feelin weak. But the truth is that Im scripted my methadone for pain management. Its a legit script before you say some shit about that--I been in more than one bad car accident, and over the past couple yrs i have also got seriously injured at one of my jobs. after that, i still kept workin a manual labor job and it made it even worse. I got the MRIs and the x rays and all that, and once i got off dope i was able to finally put some time to finally dealin with that instead of just shootin dope to cover up the pain. i could be on a different medication but i prefer the methadone, its the best painkiller IMO and becuz its so long lasting and cheap its perfect for me. 

If i didnt have the Done, word bond, i would be part way disabled no joke. when i aint on it i cant even walk right without a severe limp. Even on it, i got problems doin shit like getting up out of my chair and shit like that, sometimes I need help to get up out of bed becuz i cant sit up on my own without extreme pain and thats ON the methadone feeling it thru my dose. If i wasnt on it, my life would be so fuckin miserable and my quality of life would be bullshit. On realy bad days, sometimes when I get up out of the swing on my porch I need to grab on to the cane that i usually use to push the swing, just to push myself up to a standing position. U can see why its a embarassment to me becuz I feel like it makes me weak and i just dont like seein myself that way, but the methadone is the shit that allows me to BE normal and not feel too much like im fuckin handicapped or some shit. 

So yea, i really take offense to your assumptions about me, becuz you really dont know the whole story, or why Im on methadone, and so on. 

And once again...yea, i AM clean. I aint using heroin, or abusing drugs. I aint a drug addict, I am DEPENDENT on methadone, i aint ADDICTED to it. And i know as a matter of fact that while many ignorant-ass people try to tell you otherwise, that the program explicitly says that a medication that is legitimatly prescribed by a doctor, that is used as prescribed, is completely outside of NA's program, and that NA members aint doctors. Yall aint qualified to judge whether or not somebody needs a certain medication OR whether or not they are "clean" or not becuz they are on painkillers that they NEED to live a normal life. I aint on MMT, i am on methadone becuz of chronic pain and a doctor prescribed it to me , KNOWING i am a ex-addict, and still felt that i have a legit enough problem that I needed this medication....

So it dont matter WTF misguided NA members got to say about it. I have heard at so many meetings, the long time old timers complaining about how so many members try to put people down for bein on MMT, SMT, or opiate painkillers, and how its wrong and it goes against the programs beliefs to judge people in that way. I have heard it over and over, from speakers at meetings, from the leaders of the meetings, that PEOPLE ON MAINTENANCE, OR PAINKILLERS, ARE CLEAN....So, whether or not YOU believe it, the program as it is written, does believe it, and its just the ignorant-ass mutha fuckas who like to pass judgement and feel better about themself who twist around the meaning. "But that aint fair...I dont take no medications at all, and im clean, so how come THEY get to be clean too if they are taking medications!?! Not fair!! Im cleaner than they are!! They cheating! they should have to do it MY WAY!" 

Being an addict means your life is full of obsession with the drug. Bein clean is bein free of that obsession. If you are prescribed percocet and you take it like an addict, and you pop too many of them, and you run outta your script early, and you obsess over it and shit like that, you aint clean.

but if you take it as prescribed, and dont abuse it, and dont think about it on some drug addict shit like "my precious percocet", and dont treat it like that, dont think about it like that, aint got that obsession, then you ARE clean. it aint whether or not you take any prescribed medications that makes you clean its the attitude behind it. 

Bein clean, its that your mind is free from the obsession and cravings and need for the drug, that you can finally  feel and live like a normal person, like the person u were before u did drugs. And thats where Im at. I am clean. I dont give 2 shits wat anybody got to say about it. I am free from the addiction. I dont do heroin no more. My life aint about drugs, OR about staying off drugs--my life is about my LIFE, and livin it. i aint GOT to focus on stayin clean becuz its how i naturally live now--my thought process aint nothign like it use to be. My mind and the way it works is completely different than how it was. Thinkin about dope aint even somethin that is ever on my mind. I aint suffering or struggling to stay clean. it aint even hard work, honestly. It gets easier every day, Im such a different person with a different way of thinking and being. I am off heroin , I dont abuse any drugs at all, my mind is free from the obsession with using and all the addictive thinkin patterns and all that shit, and I am on methadone,  and thats clean. So please, spare me the fuckin judgements.

Its really great that NA works for you. But its incredibly ignorant and disrespectful of other peoples success to say the shit that u saying. Becuz it just aint true. It may be true FOR YOU...It may be true for the people in the meetings you go to,. but it just aint like that for everyone. Period, straight up.


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## Evil Weevil

I've been sober now for almost 4 years...in a row even!  I credit my sobriety to AA and my higher power.  The best advice my sponsor gave me was to concentrate on working MY program.  You get in deep shit when you start working someone else's. 

Lacey, I'm happy that you're embracing a life of sobriety, especially since you're second fiddle to that little kid you're carrying now.  And I don't believe you're not sober if you're taking Rx meds to help with your addiction/whatever.  I have severe panic disorder, which I treated for years with good old ethyl alcohol.  But now I take a low dose of clonazepam prescribed by a physician.  I don't feel any less sober.


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## Khadijah

^^Now that is some shit i can get with. I aint got no problem with ppl in the program who got the attitude that you do and i think that the program needs more ppl like you and maybe they could stop turning so many people off. Thanks for ur post. If for every self righteous militant 12-step drone out there had a opposite twin of a logical, tolerant understanding person like u, maybe there would be a lot less ppl with so much issues with the program. 

that shit u said about workin YOUR program--Best shit I ever heard from somebody in NA/AA. Youll never lose doin it that way.


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## FractalStructure

Its called making you feel powerless in everything except AA and then it works sort of like believing in a deity, thats my guess.

But I wouldnt call this a secret ;-P


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## New

It is to people that haven't been exposed to the program as much as people who go to meetings


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## stormbringerr

lacey k said:


> I didnt make it all the way thru the whole article becuz I just aint beat for hearing the story of how it started, etc, all over again but I will force myself to. I got to the part of Bill W in the hotel and having a trip-vision of god n all that and skimmed thru the rest.
> 
> They dont know how AA works becuz it aint "AA" thats working, its the people who brainwash themselfs with the philosophies of it. And Dr Drew can suck a fucking dick, Oh, "If a person dont want to to the 12 steps they dont want to get better" FUCK YOU, You ignorant piece of pig shit. How insulting can you be to the idea of personal responsibility?
> 
> I despise the idea that you cant stay clean without NA. That you "need" meetings to keep you clean, TWENTY FUCKIN YEARS after you stopped using. That you got so little strenth of your own that every single moment of your day is still a risk filled situation that could send you flying back into the pit of addiction.
> 
> You become a slave to meetings. Replacing your addiction to drugs/alcohol with addiction to the program. People eat live and sleep the program, the amount they are obsessed with it is straight up scary to me honestly. They are like programmed robots brainwashed to all think the same shit, to believe all this shit, and its the only way that they can stay clean ,is to believe it.
> 
> If it keeps em clean, good for them. If it works for them I am happy for them and it must not be such a bad thing for THEM. But shit, all I see after the hundreds of meetings that Ive wasted my nights at, is a bunch of people whose lives are still about drugs, every second of them. Except now, they about NOT using drugs instead of using them.
> 
> You cant just be a person who got off drugs. You cant just be you. You got to be you, ADDICT. You got to be a addict who is ALWAYS at risk, FOR-EVARRRR. That after 30 years without gettin high, you are still at as much risk as u were the day you quit, of relapsing. That its like this monster hidden around every corner, that you are WEAK and you CANT fight it without the program, that you CANT do it alone, that you aint CAPABLE of stayin clean, unless you do this that and the third. You GOT to do this, you GOT to get a sponsor, you GOT to go to 90 meetings in 90 days, you GOT to work the steps, all this garbage.
> 
> Well how bout this, i been clean 9 months and I aint been to a meeting in like 5 months. I actually never even went to collect my 6 months keychain, OR my 9 months one, becuz I got so sick of the meetings that I seriously just couldnt do it no more. Just sittin there listening to these people delude themselfs over and over, repeating this same cult-like shit time after time just got to be too much for me.
> 
> I aint denying that for some people it has helped them alot. but as a person who is a independent thinker who likes to do shit myself, think shit thru myself, there is just so many gaping holes in their philosophies, so much contradiction, so much shit thats just ass-backwards, that its totally useless to me. I really cant do it. That group-think shit, the mindless agreeing, man its just scary to me. its really like a cult IMO.
> 
> Is that really the life you want to life, yea , off drugs, but terrified? Scared that every day, any day, you could just fall off and start using and end up dead? That your addiction is a living thing thats like, scheming and plotting ways to win you back? That you should drive 50 minutes out of your way to work every morning , so you dont pass a bar? That you are SO FUCKING WEAK that even driving past a street corner that you copped dope at ONCE can totally throw you off balance and send you right back to the needle like a choice-less zombie? That you NEED to go to a meeting every day, becuz THATS wats keeping you clean--not your own will, not your strentgh, not your heart as your desire to stay clean gets stronger, not your wisdom and your intelligence that helps guide you, not you, but "the program"? That you will always forever be an addict, so even 60 years after you quit you still need to go to meetings and work the steps? That you will never, ever change, never be stronger, never be "cured" or "recovered", that recovery is forever and you are just doomed to always be that way til the day you die?
> 
> I aint down with the powerlessness. I aint powerless. If i was powerless, I would not have been able to quit using when i realized that i really, truly, absolutely HAD TO or i was goin straight to state prison. if i was powerless, I never could have used around my probation schedule, gettin high on the day of my piss test and the day after ,and leavin 5 days in between to clean up so i could piss clean for my PO visit a week later. If i was powerless, I woulda just started binging out like crazy every time i got a couple bundles and not stopped using til it was gone, nevermind probation. if i was powerless, I never coulda copped those 3 bundles and just left them sittin there,  hidden in my closet, for 4 days while i laid there sick as a dog, hurtin, miserable, depressed, wantin to die while I kicked, and not even touched them, not even considered touching them until after i passed my piss test.
> 
> If I was powerless, I woulda needed NA to get clean like I been. If i was powerless, i never coulda turned my life around like I did. I aint powerless, I took back my power that I had gave up, lost a hold on, and forgot that I had while i was usin. I got a choice, and when i was buried in the suffering of my addiction I couldnt exercise that choice, i coudlnt hold on tight enough to make a solid choice and stick to it, but I got it back eventually. I didnt go to rehab. I didnt go to NA. I didnt do jack-shit, except get on my Methadone, and start some long, hard thinking.
> 
> Soon enough, i lost that obsession with heroin. it took months, but it happened. It stopped bein this idea, buried in my heart , living inside of me, this passionate, destructive, insane love, wanting, craving, and just gradually turned into another idea just like anything else. It went from bein that crazy lover who you have ups and downs with, the person where its so intense that one minute you want to kill each other and the next you are furiously fucking, who you would kill for, and also want to kill. And became that boring guy/girl down the street that you really dont know much or feel nothing for, just a bland aquaintance.
> 
> Heroins grip dropped off my heart & my mind, it let go and became just another thing. Not the obssessive lust for the drug of the addict but the take it or leave it attitude of the casual recreational drug user who has fun once in a while and then gets back to 'normal' life the majority of the time. that insane, doomed love affair with dope turned into something totally lame and boring, like it was just a kind of uninteresting co-worker instead of a secret crush that burns so hot and bright inside of you that you drive yourself crazy thinking of them.
> 
> And once that crazy obsession ended, I was able to do dope , pick it up, and get a little high. Have some fun, and then forget about it for another couple months. Without none of the "oh shit, its gone? i got to get more, just one more shot, just get high for one more day" shit. Without nothing really, no feelings of disappointment when it was over and i had to go back to the daily methadone grind. It was a fun thing, and when it was done it was done. and thats all there was to it. I wasnt fantasizing, thinking about when I will be able to have it again, just living for that day when I get to boot another shot. It wasnt even really in the back of my mind.
> 
> I was too busy livin my life, a normal life, not a ex drug addict life. I dont WANT to identify myself as a fuckin ADDICT, i want to be ME. If i aint using the drug no more, if my life stopped being about this drug then why should I still make every fuckin moment be about avoiding it, which is the entire focus of the NA/AA programs? Is it really true that every single person who was ever addicted, will never, EVER be able to have a normal life again? That they are doomed to a life of NA picnics, NA barbecues ,NA sports games, NA meetings, NA community projects, NA this and fuckin that all day forever. That NA is the only "safe zone" that you can trust. That NA is the only one for you. NA will take care of you, NA will keep you safe and happy. You need NA. You cant live without NA. Trust NA and put your faith in NA and you will be ok.
> 
> It sounds alot to me like a drug addict if you replace NA with Heroin or Alcohol, etc.
> 
> If that life is wat being clean is about,.....Fuck bein clean.
> 
> But it aint GOT to be like that, becuz you aint gotta listen to their bullshit-ass lies and insane mind-warping philisophies.
> 
> But of course , according to them, that only means that you "dont really want to/aint really ready to get clean." 8(
> 
> I could go on forever and ever about this and I know i already been goin off for a while now, so Ima wrap it up but seriously,  it aint no suprise to me that they say they aint got no idea how or even if the program works, becuz there aint nothing to it except a persons willingness to delude themself and listen to wat they are told, and their ability to totally devote their life to that. If you can do that, the program will most definately keep you clean and off drugs, but i would much rather do it in a way that actually leaves me with a life that got more to it than being obsessed with the program and not using. How are you really recovered, really free, if you cant even live nothing like a normal life and it all gotta be about not using? if every move you make gotta still be about that, then you really aint recovered at all, you just hiding from the real world and that aint no way to live, its the life of the addict just without the drugs. That aint no way to be.



actually most people brainwash themselves to get things to work to help w/addiction.i dont understand why you are so mad at aa if it helps some people then it helps. just like religion.if it helps someone stay sober what right do you have to belittle it.to a lot of people aa is a normal life,just not your normal life.me thinks you doth protest too much. so angry about the way people choose to help themselves.i dont belong to aa or church bui see it help addicts all the time. although i do believe spirituality helped me with my addiction.i didnt do it all myself, people seldom do weather they know it or not...what are you really mad about anyway.


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## donnie080208

".i dont understand why you are so mad at aa if it helps some people then it helps. "


I think his/her point is, it doesnt help and can actually do more harm than good. Also A.A./N.A. members tend to give out dangerous and narrow minded advice ime , like methadone doesnt work , get offf your psych. medication etc.  They also seem oblivious to critics of the program and any  treatments options other than the 12 steps.
Personally i think A.A. should be banned from being suggested to a patient by any courts or  addiction centres / professionals.  Its unproven, unregulated and deals with some of the most vunerable people in society


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## Khadijah

Stormbringer I got issues with the program becuz it aint some type of innocent harmless thing. the program suggests things that aint only negative, but dangerous. like the poster above me said , he is correct. the type shit that is suggests to people can do a lot more harm than help and I got issues with somebody who aint a doctor telling a person they need to stop takin their medications, with tellin people that methadone and suboxone dont work and are useless and bad. suboxone and methadone especially save so many peoples lives they can be miracle drugs for many people. completely blockin out a entire method of addiction treatment is horribly ignorant and close minded and it turns people off from very helpful, good options that got the potential to change their life. Tellin people who need to be on psych. meds for anxiety, depression, etc, to stop takin their meds or not take them at all in the first place is extremely dangerous and for a person who aint qualified to be sayin that is extremely reckless and irresponsible. And of course dont forget the people who suffer from chronic pain...who been in terrible accidents or who got cancer or other diseases and live in horrible miserable pain every day of their life, and NA and AA tells them hat they cant take their meds if they want to stay "clean", so they live in suffering for no good reason...I got a issue with all that.

 if it was just some kind of harmless lil program that was about positive thinking and shit like that i wouldnt have that much problems with it. but i cant support a program that does such destructive things to people in the wrong hands. the black and white type philosophy is simple as hell and it aint true to life. life is full of gray areas and so is addiction and recovery from it. it aint a yes or no black or white type thing and NA and AA both treat it like that. and dont forget the completely , straight up, dead-WRONG information they repeat....that addiction is a "PHYSICAL ALLERGY" to drugs or alcohol, (lol) and other shit like that, things that are just straight up NOT true, at all, period, they just out right LIES, and they say this shit like its accurate, like its real, and people believe this completely madeup shit that aint got no base in reality or medicine. 

Its ridiculous yo, it aint just some kind of program that teaches people better thinking and new ways to live, but spreads information that is absolutely false, it completely dismisses the value of solid, well-trusted, effective, respected medical treatments, it gives medical advice that is WRONG and could kill somebody who is vulnerable and blindly listens to their sponsor or group members, it cuts people off from other ways of thinkin and treatin their addiction that could offer them so much help and hope and tells them that this is the ONLY way, that they aint REALLY clean unless they do this that and the 3rd, and so on.

 It aint hard to find stories about NA members who went off their psychiatric meds when their sponsor told em that they would "only sponsor people serious about bein clean and that means NO medications" so they stopped takin em and ended up killin themselfs....The program is so controlling and strick.....and dont even get me started on the whole powerlessness idea that keeps so many people relapsing and livin in addiction over and over and over....the guy who has ONE drink and then says, well, shit, i aint clean no more, and i cant control it cuz im an addict, so if i have another one it aint my fault....And then blacks out and goes on a crazy binge....the dope feen who been clean for a few months but then they decide to get high and boot a couple bags and then its "oh well, im powerless to control this, once i start i cant stop, i cant use responsibly, i cant use in moderation" and use it as a excuse and a self fulfillin prophecy to keep usin and go out of control and wile out. I been postin over and over many times in this thread how i feel about it and i aint gonna make another long-ass post sayin it all over again, but for real. 

I wouldnt have a problem if this program could either help, or do nothing. If it was like that it wouldnt be a issue. if it was that simple, if it was just that "it either works for you or it dont, and if it dont work, no harm done" then that would be just fine.

but it aint like that. it can be, and alot of the time IS, a very destructive, negative, dangerous program that leaves some people who do it worse off than they were before they started. for a lot of folks when the program dont work they dont just shake it off and try somethin else but end up doin even worse. there is SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE backin this shit up--that the success rate of AA is actually LOWER than the success rate of addicts who do NOTHING AT ALL to try and get clean. straight up, its a scam, and it hurts alot of people. sure so does addiction (cuz i know thats wat people gonna say to that) but my point is that a program that is suppose to help people so much , if it was REALLY about helpin and usin all the options, it shouldnt write off and prohibit entire fields of treatment and say that its the ONLY way. 

there is SO much out there to help people and the fact that they knock all that shit, every other way, methadone, suboxone and all replacement therapy, psychiatric medications, and other medical  physical body based treatments, and even ban any DISCUSSION of any medical breakthrus/treatments for addiction in their meetings ("no 'professionalism' ") shows how narrow sighted the program is and how much they purely interested in promoting their own program. becuz no respectable program thats truly interested in givin addicts all the help that is possible would just exclude so much other types of treatment like that. its one thing to say, "we are a ______-based recovery model" and have your theory based on a certain type of idea, and make it centered around that or focus on it, but to totally DENY all medical treatments and medications and anything other than the steps is really deprivin people of shit that could help them. The way NA/AA totally rules out so much of the other treatment options, its like a doctor sayin that he will treat cancer, but ONLY without chemo, radiation, or any other medical-based treatment and will only offer meditation and counseling, becuz he beleives its possible to treat cancer with powerful mental concentration. OK, sure if u want to base the treatment on the mental side of it thats fine, but u dont just cut out all the other proven, successful, effective treatments too, you use them TOGETHER to get the best success. you dont just cut out entire methods unless they are a threat to your success becuz they promote ideas that might go against yours, and if you more interested in success and spreadin ur method and makin sure people dont open their minds and consider other shit than really givin people the most possible help then you aint all that innocent to begin with, real talk.


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## donnie080208

^  I agree with most , if not all of what you've said lacey and i to am bemused how A.A./N.A. etc.. havent been forced to be regulated (somehow) and its brand of quackery hasnt been banished from addiction treatment in the 21st century.
Its 2010 and like youve said in previous posts , the big book etc.. were wrote in the 1920's or 30's and medical professions know far, far more these days.  Lets not forget there was no methadone, bupe, psychciatric medications in those days. Personally i liken the whole a.a. program, to when "doctors" used to drill holes in psychotic patients heads to let the demons out  centurys ago.
Also i too have no problem with GOD or churches as they dont claim to "cure" addictions and tell you nothing else will work except themselves( with regards stopping drugs/booze.) 
 ALCOHOLICS/ADDICTS first port of call should be a PROFESSIONAL doctor/shrink as many addicts have underlying mental health/ child abuse issues. Ive read and believe over 50% of heroin addicts have childhood traumas, these vunerable people shouldnt be at meetings in their first few months of sobriety but in hospital or under a doctors/shrinks care.(not subject to bill W's old wives tales and superstitious nonsense)


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## Artificial Emotion

Didn't the founder of AA advocate the use of LSD to treat alcoholism?


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## stormbringerr

i myself am on methadone.but all im saying is for some people AA seems to work and there are lots of people in AA on medication and have primary doctors.
 religion seems to work for some people.sometimes i think its just what you believe in the most.
i don't know of any sure fire cures for addiction or else there would be no addicts.one thing i do believe in, at least for me is that drugs take the place of people and relationships in my life.
its like drugs are my people my friends. they always do what they say they will do and they never get mad at you.its all fine until you run out, then you wish you had never started.


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## donnie080208

"Furthermore, 12 step programs such as Alcoholics Anonymous refused to accept methadone patients as full participants in their meetings. Many of the health problems that methadone patients evinced and the subsequent deaths in methadone treatment were caused by chronic alcoholism developed prior to admission to the program "(Joseph and Appel, 1985). 


Ive been reading about the history of methadone and this segment of the article shows what a closed minded , hypocritical group a.a. can be. From my own experience in A.A. ive had other members tell me "they know nothing about drugs" when ive mentioned i was addicted to H, as well as  alcohol. This sort of thing is one of the many reasons why i will never go back or indeed take any 12 step meeting seriously.


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## firebrand

we have a programme here, run on a property which is stunning. golf course. rolling hills, animals, pretty flowers, blah, blah, blah...

id like to know the success rate at which these programmes operate. 3-4% is the norm. what a complete waste of time and resources. cut with the "soft sell", take em out to the middle of the desert and give em one choice. do it, or you can walk. 

but i dont like your chances of survival...


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## down508

lacey k said:


> I didnt make it all the way thru the whole article becuz I just aint beat for hearing the story of how it started, etc, all over again but I will force myself to. I got to the part of Bill W in the hotel and having a trip-vision of god n all that and skimmed thru the rest.
> 
> They dont know how AA works becuz it aint "AA" thats working, its the people who brainwash themselfs with the philosophies of it. And Dr Drew can suck a fucking dick, Oh, "If a person dont want to to the 12 steps they dont want to get better" FUCK YOU, You ignorant piece of pig shit. How insulting can you be to the idea of personal responsibility?
> 
> I despise the idea that you cant stay clean without NA. That you "need" meetings to keep you clean, TWENTY FUCKIN YEARS after you stopped using. That you got so little strenth of your own that every single moment of your day is still a risk filled situation that could send you flying back into the pit of addiction.
> 
> You become a slave to meetings. Replacing your addiction to drugs/alcohol with addiction to the program. People eat live and sleep the program, the amount they are obsessed with it is straight up scary to me honestly. They are like programmed robots brainwashed to all think the same shit, to believe all this shit, and its the only way that they can stay clean ,is to believe it.
> 
> If it keeps em clean, good for them. If it works for them I am happy for them and it must not be such a bad thing for THEM. But shit, all I see after the hundreds of meetings that Ive wasted my nights at, is a bunch of people whose lives are still about drugs, every second of them. Except now, they about NOT using drugs instead of using them.
> 
> You cant just be a person who got off drugs. You cant just be you. You got to be you, ADDICT. You got to be a addict who is ALWAYS at risk, FOR-EVARRRR. That after 30 years without gettin high, you are still at as much risk as u were the day you quit, of relapsing. That its like this monster hidden around every corner, that you are WEAK and you CANT fight it without the program, that you CANT do it alone, that you aint CAPABLE of stayin clean, unless you do this that and the third. You GOT to do this, you GOT to get a sponsor, you GOT to go to 90 meetings in 90 days, you GOT to work the steps, all this garbage.
> 
> Well how bout this, i been clean 9 months and I aint been to a meeting in like 5 months. I actually never even went to collect my 6 months keychain, OR my 9 months one, becuz I got so sick of the meetings that I seriously just couldnt do it no more. Just sittin there listening to these people delude themselfs over and over, repeating this same cult-like shit time after time just got to be too much for me.
> 
> I aint denying that for some people it has helped them alot. but as a person who is a independent thinker who likes to do shit myself, think shit thru myself, there is just so many gaping holes in their philosophies, so much contradiction, so much shit thats just ass-backwards, that its totally useless to me. I really cant do it. That group-think shit, the mindless agreeing, man its just scary to me. its really like a cult IMO.
> 
> Is that really the life you want to life, yea , off drugs, but terrified? Scared that every day, any day, you could just fall off and start using and end up dead? That your addiction is a living thing thats like, scheming and plotting ways to win you back? That you should drive 50 minutes out of your way to work every morning , so you dont pass a bar? That you are SO FUCKING WEAK that even driving past a street corner that you copped dope at ONCE can totally throw you off balance and send you right back to the needle like a choice-less zombie? That you NEED to go to a meeting every day, becuz THATS wats keeping you clean--not your own will, not your strentgh, not your heart as your desire to stay clean gets stronger, not your wisdom and your intelligence that helps guide you, not you, but "the program"? That you will always forever be an addict, so even 60 years after you quit you still need to go to meetings and work the steps? That you will never, ever change, never be stronger, never be "cured" or "recovered", that recovery is forever and you are just doomed to always be that way til the day you die?
> 
> I aint down with the powerlessness. I aint powerless. If i was powerless, I would not have been able to quit using when i realized that i really, truly, absolutely HAD TO or i was goin straight to state prison. if i was powerless, I never could have used around my probation schedule, gettin high on the day of my piss test and the day after ,and leavin 5 days in between to clean up so i could piss clean for my PO visit a week later. If i was powerless, I woulda just started binging out like crazy every time i got a couple bundles and not stopped using til it was gone, nevermind probation. if i was powerless, I never coulda copped those 3 bundles and just left them sittin there,  hidden in my closet, for 4 days while i laid there sick as a dog, hurtin, miserable, depressed, wantin to die while I kicked, and not even touched them, not even considered touching them until after i passed my piss test.
> 
> If I was powerless, I woulda needed NA to get clean like I been. If i was powerless, i never coulda turned my life around like I did. I aint powerless, I took back my power that I had gave up, lost a hold on, and forgot that I had while i was usin. I got a choice, and when i was buried in the suffering of my addiction I couldnt exercise that choice, i coudlnt hold on tight enough to make a solid choice and stick to it, but I got it back eventually. I didnt go to rehab. I didnt go to NA. I didnt do jack-shit, except get on my Methadone, and start some long, hard thinking.
> 
> Soon enough, i lost that obsession with heroin. it took months, but it happened. It stopped bein this idea, buried in my heart , living inside of me, this passionate, destructive, insane love, wanting, craving, and just gradually turned into another idea just like anything else. It went from bein that crazy lover who you have ups and downs with, the person where its so intense that one minute you want to kill each other and the next you are furiously fucking, who you would kill for, and also want to kill. And became that boring guy/girl down the street that you really dont know much or feel nothing for, just a bland aquaintance.
> 
> Heroins grip dropped off my heart & my mind, it let go and became just another thing. Not the obssessive lust for the drug of the addict but the take it or leave it attitude of the casual recreational drug user who has fun once in a while and then gets back to 'normal' life the majority of the time. that insane, doomed love affair with dope turned into something totally lame and boring, like it was just a kind of uninteresting co-worker instead of a secret crush that burns so hot and bright inside of you that you drive yourself crazy thinking of them.
> 
> And once that crazy obsession ended, I was able to do dope , pick it up, and get a little high. Have some fun, and then forget about it for another couple months. Without none of the "oh shit, its gone? i got to get more, just one more shot, just get high for one more day" shit. Without nothing really, no feelings of disappointment when it was over and i had to go back to the daily methadone grind. It was a fun thing, and when it was done it was done. and thats all there was to it. I wasnt fantasizing, thinking about when I will be able to have it again, just living for that day when I get to boot another shot. It wasnt even really in the back of my mind.
> 
> I was too busy livin my life, a normal life, not a ex drug addict life. I dont WANT to identify myself as a fuckin ADDICT, i want to be ME. If i aint using the drug no more, if my life stopped being about this drug then why should I still make every fuckin moment be about avoiding it, which is the entire focus of the NA/AA programs? Is it really true that every single person who was ever addicted, will never, EVER be able to have a normal life again? That they are doomed to a life of NA picnics, NA barbecues ,NA sports games, NA meetings, NA community projects, NA this and fuckin that all day forever. That NA is the only "safe zone" that you can trust. That NA is the only one for you. NA will take care of you, NA will keep you safe and happy. You need NA. You cant live without NA. Trust NA and put your faith in NA and you will be ok.
> 
> It sounds alot to me like a drug addict if you replace NA with Heroin or Alcohol, etc.
> 
> If that life is wat being clean is about,.....Fuck bein clean.
> 
> But it aint GOT to be like that, becuz you aint gotta listen to their bullshit-ass lies and insane mind-warping philisophies.
> 
> But of course , according to them, that only means that you "dont really want to/aint really ready to get clean." 8(
> 
> I could go on forever and ever about this and I know i already been goin off for a while now, so Ima wrap it up but seriously,  it aint no suprise to me that they say they aint got no idea how or even if the program works, becuz there aint nothing to it except a persons willingness to delude themself and listen to wat they are told, and their ability to totally devote their life to that. If you can do that, the program will most definately keep you clean and off drugs, but i would much rather do it in a way that actually leaves me with a life that got more to it than being obsessed with the program and not using. How are you really recovered, really free, if you cant even live nothing like a normal life and it all gotta be about not using? if every move you make gotta still be about that, then you really aint recovered at all, you just hiding from the real world and that aint no way to live, its the life of the addict just without the drugs. That aint no way to be.



this articles about aa, you keep talking about na you know there's a difference right?


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## Khadijah

There aint a difference. replace "drugs" with "alcohol" in the steps. I been to both and there wasnt no difference anytime i been at either--in one they talk about alcohol, in another one they talk about drugs, its the same exact fucking steps and the same program. Trust me , my hate extends to both of them, not just na.


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## down508

i understand all of the points you made but sometimes it comes down to people who've tried every single possible way of getting sober and as a last resort go to aa. these are usually the people who it helps the most. If you're so much better without the program than you obviously don't need it, there's no reason to label the people that find comfort in it and who's lives have been saved  as brainwashed morons.


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## Khadijah

I aint gonna lie, i got strong feelings about the shit, but i do know that theres alot of people in the program whose good peoples. 

But, the ones who push the shit on others, and the ones who are actively tryna promote it as the "only" way, etc, who are really aggressive about the program and about recruiting people who are vulnerable, and allt hat shit, I got a problem with. Its one of those things like "the troops." I might be against the war in iraw when it happend, but i didnt say all the soldiers were assholes. Sure there was some war mongering douches, but alot of regular guys int he troops too. but the people who started the war, in charge of it, thats who i really got the issue with--same here. I feel that NA and AA got soem very sinister under tones and are capable of doin a lot of harm, and people aint aware of the bad , kinda darkside of it, and the folks in charge and the people who are like super brainwashed, ultra into it, trying to spread the steps aggressively, etc...thats who i really got the issue with, i guess.


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## dragonslayer428

I am a former member of AA.  

I will say, it DID help me out at certain times of my life (and may help me out again if I get out of control again) but I realized I will never be a '20 year sober' kind of guy.  I'm more like a 'take a 3-4 month break' kind of guy, at the most (that was the most amount of time I could put together in the program).  Therefore, I can't stay in the program because if I decide to have a few beers or a few glasses of wine, I am sick of that being considered a 'relapse.'

However, I am not going to knock how the program works, including the G-d part of it.  I have a very strong belief in G-d.  AA DOES save lives.  

In conclusion, I just love my import beers too much at this point in my life.  =)


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## dragonslayer428

down508 said:


> i understand all of the points you made but sometimes it comes down to people who've tried every single possible way of getting sober and as a last resort go to aa. these are usually the people who it helps the most. If you're so much better without the program than you obviously don't need it, there's no reason to label the people that find comfort in it and who's lives have been saved  as brainwashed morons.




I TOTALLY agree.


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## firebrand

lacey k said:


> There aint a difference. replace "drugs" with "alcohol" in the steps. I been to both and there wasnt no difference anytime i been at either--in one they talk about alcohol, in another one they talk about drugs, its the same exact fucking steps and the same program. Trust me , my hate extends to both of them, not just na.



i wish that anybody who talks about this subject would stop seperating alcohol from drugs(alcohol and drugs).

it should state, "drugs including alcohol". after all, it(Alcohol)is a drug. in any case, looks like that mind is a lil warped in this case, so carry on regardless, just dont bother anyone with your bullshit, yeah ?

one thing i gotta say in defence, though, ia that you seem to have your life defined by being an addict, NO MATTER what you have achieved in life. THEN, once you become "clean", (oh how i hate that word !)your defined by your sobriety.

kind of like people who end thier lives, they just become known as "oh, thats the guy who took his life..."

that part, i dont like.


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## stormbringerr

donnie080208 said:


> "Furthermore, 12 step programs such as Alcoholics Anonymous refused to accept methadone patients as full participants in their meetings. Many of the health problems that methadone patients evinced and the subsequent deaths in methadone treatment were caused by chronic alcoholism developed prior to admission to the program "(Joseph and Appel, 1985).
> 
> 
> Ive been reading about the history of methadone and this segment of the article shows what a closed minded , hypocritical group a.a. can be. From my own experience in A.A. ive had other members tell me "they know nothing about drugs" when ive mentioned i was addicted to H, as well as  alcohol. This sort of thing is one of the many reasons why i will never go back or indeed take any 12 step meeting seriously.



i don't know where you found this article on the history of methadone   but it looks pretty closed minded to me and wrong. methadone was never meant for use in alcoholism treatment.methadone causes very few to no health problems in most people.a lot of these groups you speak of in aa don't sound anything at all like the ones in Austin TX. like most things you just have to take what you can use from any program.i personally believe alcohol to be a very dangerous drug when compared to any opiate.


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## Khadijah

i think you totally misunderstood wat he was saying. He aint saying methadone is dangerous, at all. And he aint saying methadone is a treatment for alcoholism.

He was saying that 12 step groups like NA and AA dont consider people on methadone to be "clean" and are against methadone and suboxone treatment, and that part of the reason for that, is that NA and AA believe that methadone is dangerous and unhealthy. and that AA based its information about methadone bein unhealthy on studies that showed negative effects. but the people who had bad effects, were alcohol abusers with shitty health, and that the complications that they had was from their alcohol abuse, not from the methadone.


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## donnie080208

@lacey k  thanks for explaining my post properly!!!   The article i was refering to was about early done treatment in new york, where the local A.A. meetings wouldnt except methadone patients(who are also booze addicts) into their bosom.
The only difference with A.A. and N.A. ive found is that many a.a. menbers dont class themselves as drug addicts and look down on i.v. junkies, even though alcohol is a destructive drug which makes people violent. heroins only real downside imo is because its illegal.
AA/NA is one of the biggest "medical " treatment scams of the 20th centuary imo.


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## Propyhexadream

Only difference between crack and AA is that AA is free. Either way people will be dependent on it.


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## SubutexMan

*I have always felt that the Reason AA works is due to the fact that, Drug addicts and alcoholics need something to do. They need a new addiction of sorts. By joining alcoholics anonymous you join a family and a community. This makes it so every time you see these people you are accountable for your actions and they also give you support if you need it..

By going every week you make it part of your life and daily habbit or weekly habbit. Either way you are accountable to the people you see every time you go. and sooner or later you make freinds and then you become use to hearing that being sober is sooo nice and your life will get better if thats the path you pick. so once you have been faking it for a while it slowly but surely will become who you are and want to be. 

everyone around you is doing the same so you all want the same thing. everytime you go it is a reminder for the fact you have an addiction issue and that you are fixing it. Everytime you see people struggleing you realize were you are and you try to help them and by helping them it causes you more of a need to stay clean because if u dont u will not have the right to help the people around you in AA that at this point you care alot for.. 

So AA is replacement theropy for addicts, IT brings you around people who can teach you things that you need to know to stay sober.. It makes u accountable for your addiction with the people you see at AA and you know they are sober and care about u and want you to stay sober so some times thats enough to push someone to stay clean.. AA never gives up on someone and if they have then that group of AA folk is not normal AA. AA loves its people and wants nothing but the best for them.. It gives you a family and support that alot of addicts have either lost or destroyed so once they have a new support system and people they can trust and relay on, and one they are sober.they do not want to mess up this relationship so this can also help keep them sober... 


ANyway good luck to anyone trying to stay clean. if your having truble for reall just go to 3-5 AA meetings a week and you will notice it becomes a rutein and once youdo that for 9 weeks or so you will become able to slowly start going less and you will know the right number for you to stay sober... some people go every day or more then once a day . but alot of people after a while only go twice a week or less.. It really becomes something you dont mind doing and you even enjoy ... goood luck people.. Realize that Your higher power is not god. it can be god but for alot of people your higher power is w.e you need it to be to make you be sober. for me my higher power is the AA group i go to. ITs the feeling of caring that I get from the People i see at AA. Its the storys I hear and the messege I have learnt about how to stay sober and what it can give me in my life .... *


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## B25Bulas

A quick reply, that I've lived personally during a snowstorm, it only takes 2 people to have a meeting and it can be anywhere. Mine was in a bus station. So, while many of us appreciate the history, its the daily "action" that works for most of us. And instead of the big meetings where you know everyone, when there's only 2 of you and you don't know the other person and she has no reason to trust you, that's when AA can (notice I didn't say "did" or "always") shine.


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## realm

Hopefully, being a long time member on this board will give me some credibility here. I'm working the AA/NA program now. I'll be the first to say that the standard NA and AA meetings are a total free-for-all and do not work for me. The big book of AA was the only thing that did, and i'm not talking about open format meetings where people talk about how bad they were. I'm a solution oriented person and positive person. That saying "Meeting makers stay clean" is a bunch of bullshit. If I had to go to a meeting a day for the rest of my life I would have to shoot myself. 

I'm not sober today to stay miserable. I seek balance in my life, and a meeting a day is not balance. I don't seek to replace one addiction with another. To me, that's not what the program is about. It's about finding something larger than yourself to give your will to in order to have a sense of inner peace and to put the past behind you. The big book says "resentments are the number one offender" and I wholly believe that statement to be true. My resentments had me wanting to kill myself everyday. 

Today, I'm happy. Not just saying that i'm happy. But, I have balance in my life. The true goal of the program for me is to do just that. To be restored to sanity and have addictive and destructive behaviors replaced with love for myself and those around me. To live harmoniously to the best of my abilities. 

I don't understand why people bash this program so much, it works for some people. And there is a lot of misinformation floating around in those meetings with people who are clean for 20 years but not sober. And there is a difference. If I was a dry drunk/user for 20+ years...no 1 year. I would have no reason to stay clean. I seek sobriety, and the other people in the program who have good sobriety. This program is wide open to interpretation, but if I do it how the book says to do it and don't tailor fit it to what I want it to mean then it works. 

If I thought the program was just to get off drugs I would have been sadly mistaken. It's about change, changing completely and fearlessly to have a better life than the one I had before. And, trust me when I say not waking up with a hangover ever again is a gift I never thought possible. 

AA is not about sticking to the program and only being around people in the program for the rest of your life. It's about being able to live your life, the life you've always wanted and always dreamed of. So if you want to work the program, find the people who have the life you want, and the balance you seek instead of the people who exhibit the extreme behaviors but are just off the drugs.


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## donnie080208

A "dry drunk" is a.a. speak for someone who GIVES up drink/drugs but without doing the 12 steps. They obviously dont like this thought of this, so they create nonsense sayings like" dry drunk". someones either pissed or their not.
 I went to a.a. for years then stopped and (more or less) since then ive not drank for approaching 5 years, they would say im a dry drunk, unbelievable and somewhat sad (as it plays on the vunerable like other fundeamental/evangelical religion)   that people  fall for this shit


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## Khadijah

But realm--WHY turn your will over to something/one else?

Your fears....your worries....your anxiety....your struggles...OK, that I understand.

But your will?

Thats why i will never be a 12 stepper.


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## AfterGlow

No, that's wrong.  A dry drunk is someone who stopped drinking but is miserable about not being able to drink instead of being happy and grateful that they are sober.  Did you listen to anything at all when you went to AA?



donnie080208 said:


> A "dry drunk" is a.a. speak for someone who GIVES up drink/drugs but without doing the 12 steps. They obviously dont like this thought of this, so they create nonsense sayings like" dry drunk". someones either pissed or their not.
> I went to a.a. for years then stopped and (more or less) since then ive not drank for approaching 5 years, they would say im a dry drunk, unbelievable and somewhat sad (as it plays on the vunerable like other fundeamental/evangelical religion)   that people  fall for this shit


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## donnie080208

@afterglow " No, that's wrong. A dry drunk is someone who stopped drinking but is miserable about not being able to drink instead of being happy and grateful that they are sober. Did you listen to anything at all when you went to AA?   "

A "dry drunk" is exclusively an A.A./12 step saying , there is no such thing , you either drunk or not. 
Also a  dry drunk has become mainly a derogatory term for alcoholics who gave up without a.a.

Have you ever thought many  alcoholics have serious mental issues that need medicating or PROFESSIONAL  counselling ,      ( im sure there was a survey at some rehabs and well over half the women patients had been abused .)
The predators / bad advice and following the teachings from a book by some bloke called bill (who took l.s.d and talks to god) is not the best treatment plan for the vast, vast majority of the worlds  damaged addicts in the 21st century.

 Its faith healing religion call it what is please, not nonsense spiritual program and fellowships.  

 GODS MENTIONED MORE TIMES IN THE 12 STEPS(6) THAN THE 10 COMMANDMENTS! FACT, HOW IS A.A. NOT A RELIGIOUS BASED PROGRAM ? ITS LAUGHABLE PEOPLES DENIAL OVER A.A.'S HISTORY AND THE PEOPLE WHO LITERALLY MADE  ALL IT UP.WHY SHOULD I TAKE ON BOARD ANYTHING THAT BILL W. OR DOCTOR BOB HAS WRITTEN? ANYONE?


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## realm

So can you please explain to me how it works? 

I find it hilarious that addict's are the only people who when asked "Would you rather die or be spiritual?" have to actually sit there and think about it. 

I hated god. 

But, have you ever given god a chance? My definition of god is just "g.ood o.rderly. d.irection". What's so hard about that? 

Get over being jaded...it's not a respectable quality in a person.

Lacey: What exactly is your will? Do you feel like you own it? How far has your will really gotten you in life? What has having control over your will really ever gotten you? To me it's a relief to say "god take this from me...i fucked it up...do what you want with me". And my life is amazing now and getting better everyday. I didn't give my will up to AA i gave it up to god. AA was just the tool to introduce me to the concept.


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## Khadijah

Shit realm, my will is how I got to bein over a year clean off dope. Lack of will has brought me to some of the worst places. But it aint nothin but my will that has brought me back from there. Wat has it done for me? got me clean, got my life back together. My will, determination, discipline, faith, internal strenth, resilience--thats the things that got me to the better place i am at today. It has brought me everything good that I have achieved in my life. my drive to succeed, my will to keep myself working even when I wanted to give up, all these things are how I got to where Im at. 

I aint one of the people who dont believe in a higher power. I believe in god all the way. But god helps those who help themselves. Having faith and belief that I aint alone, that I am here for a reason, that all this struggle and pain and all that, wasnt for nothing, that i been thru it all as part of a bigger puzzle, as just somethin to teach me for my greater purpose in life....All that has helped me along, but I am the one responsible for my success and where I am at now. i had help along the way, from my family, from the love of my life and soul mate and now the father of my son, from the pure good luck and blessings that I been lucky enough to have, and help when shit got hard, from my faith and belief that there is a bigger force out there lookin out for me. I aint sayin it in a arrogant way, like I take all the credit or w/ever. It aint like that. But im just sayin--Nobody coulda done this for me. Nobody coulda got me here except me. it was my responsibility, and it took me long enough to finally (wo)man up and take it, but once i did, it was all up from there. 

It IS my choice if I use. it IS my choice the way I choose to live my life, it is my choice if i am gonna be a fuckin dopehead or ima be clean, all that shit, its on me. it aint on god, it aint on no higher power. its my decision. I am the one calling the shots. I absolutely KNOW, without no question in my mind, that I will not use tomorrow. There aint no question, there aint no 'wat if", there aint no doubt. it aint thru the grace of god that Ill stay clean. its thru me and my choices and my will to continue living the happy blessed life that I am livin now. When people say "well you are an addict--you cant know if you will relapse, etc" I cant relate to that in no way at all. I CAN know, and i DO know. When I was on dope, i gave up my will. I gave up my will to dope and to that life. i didnt care, i just didnt give a shit and i knew exactly wat i was doing. i was feelin the sweet relief of lettin go, of givin up, of just lettin myself fall down and down and down and just not caring. The whole time I lived as a dopehead, shootin that shit in my veins all day , THAT was my life WITHOUT my will.

Now that I got it back there aint no limit to the things I can do with myself, to the success that I can achieve, I know that shit. For me, to turn over my will is somethin that has never done a damn thing for me except send me down. I am most proud that I got it, that I am able to USE it and HAVE the choice, to exercise my will in my life and feel the freedom of makin my choices again instead of lettin addiction make those choices for me. I aint givin up that shit again, tell you that much. The powerless, will-less shit is the exact opposite of how i want to life my life. Ive had way better success as a self-made ex-dopefeen than i ever had tryin any other way. it took me, to decide it for myself, on my own, and use my own willpower, to get my way out of it. i couldnt do it before, becuz i had lost my will, it was gone, i had no control of it. Once i got ahold of it again and held on tight, it was the pure , raw, uncut force of stubborn-ass willpower that got me out of that fuckin hole.

I aint saying that addiction is just a character defect, that only people who are weak willed, etc, are addicts. Thats bullshit. i hate hearin when asshole knowitalls try and say that you only stay addicted cuz you weak, etc. But im just sayin that for ME personally, after so many years lost in a sea just floating without none of my own will, without determination or any strenth to do anything, without the drive or ability to follow thru with the smallest thing...the inability to even TRY to get clean....i got nowhere...but once i finally was able to regain that will that i had lost, it gave me the strenth to improve the REST of myself, all my other defenses against addiction--discipline, determination, strenth, drive, hope, faith, etc--they came back to life, and all of those things put together with the will to keep going is how I got free from that shit.

I know for absolute certain that I never would be here without my will. Its a positive force in my life not a negative one.


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## Jabberwocky

realm said:
			
		

> I find it hilarious that addict's are the only people who when asked "Would you rather die or be spiritual?" have to actually sit there and think about it.


Your evidence for this statement is ???? Sounds like the kind of unproven drivel one might here at a meeting to me. It has a number of pre-suppositions. A)addicts are a special group different than any other B) That spirituality is actually a significant factor in addicts surviving an addiction C) That it is an either/or situation (get spiritual or die) D) That there aren't any other ways to recover.

Thank you for illustrating the kind of a priori nonsense that often goes hand in hand with joining "the program".


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## realm

My evidence? Almost everyone at my treatment center had to sit there and think about it. And I think you're taking the term addicts in the AA/NA sense of the word...I'm just talking about someone addicted to a substance period. 

You can break down a simple statement all day man. 

I wasn't trying to argue that everyone here should work the steps, I was simply saying how 'the program' worked for me and what i've seen. Furthermore, by no means is AA/NA the only way to stay clean. 

It's funny how when someone come's on here talking about AA/NA people wig the fuck out. Really, at the end of the day it's exactly how Lacey said. What works for her works for her. And what works for me works for me. Really, I don't give a shit what you do or don't do. Stay high, stay clean. Either way I have nothing but love for all of you. 

I get the feeling people hate on AA/NA so much because they just didn't want to get it that way. I've been a non-conformist my whole life and it got me a heroin addiction, so for me it was better to try someone else's way.


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## donnie080208

@realm and other 12 steppers

If you think god is interested in self -inflicted , drunken, drug addicts and" lifts the obsession to drink" while he lets kids starve and be abused (through no fault of their own) then your deluded. alcohol/drug addiction has nothing to do with being spiritual (i.e. the 12 step religion), many non addicts shit on people and do evil things but dont turn into alkys or junkies(i.e. not "spiritual").
Also  either a.a. works or it doesnt, its unjust and dishonest to give the 12 steps credit for someones sobriety but when in 99 percent of cases it doesnt work ,they then blame the addict (with  sayings like "they havent had enough/ didnt work the program " etc).
Im all for self help groups but A.A. is immoral, based on religion/god, and worst of all passes judgement on addicts and promotes wallowing in guilt and regret.
 Show us some stats that the 12 steps works  realm , like you would be able to do for methadone and other treatment methods. why shoul a.a. be given a free pass and be excluded from providing figures showing their sucess rates.? it should be banned from being promoted at treatment centres etc.. untill it provides this imo


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## realm

First off, type with some spaces in there man. I don't even know why i'm responding to you, you obviously already have your mind made up.

I feel sorry for someone who see's life so black and white. Take some acid or something and open your eyes dude, see some color. Also, please read what I said before misquoting me. 

If you think recovering from addiction is a one size fits all solution, and it either works or doesn't work you are the deluded one. Some things work for some people and some things don't. Which is why AA/NA is introduced at treatment centers. It's just one of the many tools introduced to people who are hopelessly addicted. 

And, why do you need stats? What in this life has a 100% success rate? The fact of the matter is we go through many failures until we succeed. 

Also, for fuck's sake man...are you just going to listen to everything that's told to you as fact? You just re-iterated the popular misconception that i'm trying to de-bunk. At the core of AA it says nothing about a meeting that should be composed of guilt/wallowing. Really, a meeting should be solution based, it's the majority of people who turn it into group therapy and unload all their problems on a room full of unsuspecting people who think that's what it should be. Talk about the solution or get the fuck out is how I feel about it. 

You get recovered whichever way works for you. If you need 12 step, therapy, or just fuckin' listening to the same song every time you get the urge to use, by all means do what you gotta do. But, if you're filling a spiritual void with drugs like I was...god worked for me. And, this is coming from a hardcore acid head, heroin addict, and PCP lover who has used drugs for more than half of my short 24 years on this planet. 

And real quick...why do you take such offense to AA/NA? Is it because it didn't work for you, and some crazy dope head gave you a judgmental look? Gimme a break dude. All I see is someone judging another addict, not an addict being judged. Look inward before looking outward to unload a bunch of nonsensical bullshit with no basis. 

When I say to a room with 50 people in it that 1 person will stay sober, and if you think you're that person raise your hand....why do 30 people raise their hand? 

I said 1 person would make it, not 30...it's all bullshit. Really, everyone in that room can make it if that's what they truly want. Stop looking to statistics for reassurance. For some it works and others not...find another way if it didn't work for you. What have you got to lose? It's fucking free. Do you bitch this much when someone gives you a free hamburger at McDonald's? I bet you just shut the fuck up and take it...then do you bitch because you got a free burger and it didn't have any pickles on it? Keep finding shit to complain about and you'll find yourself pretty lonely pretty quick.


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## donnie080208

@realm "And, why do you need stats? What in this life has a 100% success rate? The fact of the matter is we go through many failures until we succeed. "


Sorry i was abrupt my rant wasnt really aimed at you as such.But of course we need sucess rate stats its how all treatments and medication for any illness works.
I dont expect AA /NA to have 100% success rates but it should be more or less equal to other methods such as methadone, antagonists, other therapys etc.. if not it should be discouraged in treatment centres and the like. Why are 12 steppers so scared of providing impartial information and stats ? I d love to be proved wrong, that its sucess rate is worse than doing nothing. I wish it helped addicts but the sad truth is is mostly does more harm than good.


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## Khadijah

Yea realm not for nothing but I think he was just pointing out that AA/NA has far from a 100% success rate....Having even a 5% success rate would be nice....But all scientific evidence shows that its under 1%.

I think his issue is with the fact that a program that in reality has a terrible , atrocious actual rate of working, is the NUMBER FUCKING ONE, DEFAULT PROGRAM used as the first treatment , all over the world, and that in esp. places like the US its institutionalized, you can be forced, court ordered to go to meetings, etc--and when you disagree, when you dont "work the program", they give you a bad report, say you dont realy want to get clean, etc, and tell your PO that you fail at rehab, etc.

The way that people who dont "take" to the program, get treated like they are just people who dont really want to get clean, by the majority of the legal and treatment community, when the rate of success of teh program is so low, is somethin that pisses alot of people off.

When i saiy that shit, it aint about you personally or against you personally, in no way. Its just that there is some pretty big flaws with the program and the way its pushed, in the US in particular--it basically got a fuckin monopoly on treatment, you can find like 10% of treatment centers and rehabs across the US that DONT use the 12-steps--its  like "THE" way to get clean, and it dont deserve that reputation in alot of our opinions. YOU as a member aint treating it like the only way--YOU aint pushing it on us, etc, but the atmosphere in this country and the way that the program is seen as the only way for people who are "serious", etc, and anybody who goes against the ideas of the 12 steps gets looked at like a fuckin quack, is somethin that i know at least I got a problem with and i bet that is part of wat donnie is gettin at aswell.


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## realm

The thing about that success rate is AA/NA with their 1% have more people staying clean than pretty much anything else out there. I know it's sad. Trust me. Most of the people I was in treatment with relapsed their first day out. I did when I got out of a non 12-step treatment center my first time too. I don't think it really matters what kind of treatment you get, the percentage of people who stay 'sober for life' is going to be low for a long time. 

Trust me I know how sad it is that people who want to get clean just can't. A lot of us die in the process of trying to find something that works too. That's why there are so many options. 

I also agree completely that AA/NA should not be court ordered and there are a lot of judgmental people in there. They are people, it's not just in AA/NA, it's everywhere. People judge. Fact of life. It's even more sad when it happens in AA/NA though, because they should know where you're coming from, but a lot of them forget where they came from. 

I have a lot of grudges with open AA/NA as well, believe me. I was court ordered to go and I didn't get it until other things took place. AA/NA is only one part of my program though, I don't plan on going to meetings for the rest of my life. That to me would be counter-productive. 

I'm going on a tangent now. 

The only thing I really wanted to illustrate was that it works for some. The success rate is completely irrelevant, unfortunately we don't have anything better as a mainstream, acceptable, and probably more importantly FREE, treatment program. 

Things will be changing in the next 5 years though, mark my words. Treatment and rehab will take a massive turn for the better as far as approach, and success rates go. People are starting to really focus on the failure and shortcomings of treatment centers as a whole, and something will come about to really shift the power away from AA/NA. I really do look forward to it. 

There are a lot of people out there who need help who didn't find it in AA/NA, and that is the majority. I really want nothing but to see those people live amazing lives, the lives they always dreamed of. I don't think too many of us here dreamed of becoming broke heroin junkies and institutionalized alcoholics. I think the most important role of a treatment center is to revitalize lost dreams in people, and allow them to have a life that doesn't revolve around negative/destructive behaviors. 

I'm not saying were all addicts here guys. But, the ones that are...it sucks to see them living so sub-par. We're all capable of so much more than what we give ourselves credit for.


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## donnie080208

"The thing about that success rate is AA/NA with their 1% have more people staying clean than pretty much anything else out there. I know it's sad."

This isnt true though is it, all available stats show the 12 steps is one of the worst treatments available

"I don't think it really matters what kind of treatment you get, the percentage of people who stay 'sober for life' is going to be low for a long time."

Sorry to pick holes but  of course it matters what treatment you get, n.a. openly claims methadone doesnt work when its proven to be the best "life improver" for most addicts. 
plus like your saying most just get sober because they have had enough ,but if they went to  a 12 step program it takes credit for these "spontaneus remissions"(and blames the addict , not the program for failures) also the low AA stats are from addicts who reach being sober for 1 year,  in A.A., its a very low figure indeed. the orange papers site is one of the best for an in depth rebuttal of a.a. teachings and history


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## realm

The methadone argument really isn't vaild. I'm sorry but it's not. Methadone may keep you off opiates but what about everything else? I was on suboxone for a while and it only kept me off heroin. I still used other drugs, therefore it's not really treatment for poly drug abusers. 

Also, this 1% AA/NA success rate is just hearsay. If you read the main article in this thread you'd know that. There's no way to really know what the success rate of the program is. 

Before I get attacked for this last post regarding methadone, it's just my opinion. I was a junkie and suboxone didn't work for me. For some people it has, more power to them! If something works then why stop?


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## slowpoke1967

raver2008 said:


> Pretty interesting article. A few ppl I know are trying to get me to attend meetings with them because they work so great for them, but I dont know if I even belive in god so I cant see it helping me any. Are most group meetings all basically the same in which some sort of god or whatever is what there based around?



you definatly dont have to believe in god to make the program work for you.
I did it and i dont believe in gawd...
I higher power can be almost anything its just to help you .
The support of the people and being around clean people is what makes it work..


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## Khadijah

realm said:


> The methadone argument really isn't vaild. I'm sorry but it's not. Methadone may keep you off opiates but what about everything else? I was on suboxone for a while and it only kept me off heroin. I still used other drugs, therefore it's not really treatment for poly drug abusers.
> 
> Also, this 1% AA/NA success rate is just hearsay. If you read the main article in this thread you'd know that. There's no way to really know what the success rate of the program is.
> 
> Before I get attacked for this last post regarding methadone, it's just my opinion. I was a junkie and suboxone didn't work for me. For some people it has, more power to them! If something works then why stop?




Why you talking about how suboxone didnt work for you when the topic is methadone? Methadone and suboxone, and their effectiveness, are soooooooo different it aint even funny.


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## realm

All apologies, simply sharing what did and didn't work for me. Luckily i'm off dope now for a while so I don't need anything to keep me from doing it.


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## donnie080208

@realm "Also, this 1% AA/NA success rate is just hearsay. If you read the main article in this thread you'd know that. There's no way to really know what the success rate of the program is. "


The same could be said about 12 steps members claim that" it works if you work it"(but if it doesnt its your fault). There is a way of mesuring a.a.'s sucess just like any other treatment, how many people are sober after being "treated" with the 12 step program for say 6 months. Im sure people cleverer than me could work out a fair and impartial way of working out a.a.'s sucess rate these days.
also i respect subs didnt work for you but you get that  even with the most sucessful treatments and medication but methadone /subs do vastly improve the lives of MOST people who go on them to a greater or lesser degree, can the same be said of A.A., very much doubt it.? btw respect for standing your graound realm, few 12 steppers ever do, just shut their ears off to critics.


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## cashmunny

On a website devoted to recreational drug use people are lining up to slam AA/NA? Imagine that.

Even if it's not your cup of tea everyone here should be grateful for AA/NA. I know a lot of people in the meetings. And if they weren't there in those meetings, they'd be robbing your house.


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## donnie080208

@CASHMUNNY "On a website devoted to recreational drug use people are lining up to slam AA/NA? Imagine that."


What utter crap, Bl is  not devoted to rec. drug use, imo its a place for addicts to find non judgemental help and for harm reductions and debate on treatments, maintenance. etc..( something the 12 steppers are clearly touchy about)
How do you know certain people who are at AA/NA would be out robbing house's, for all you know (and probably they) they would be part of the sizable minority of alcoholics who stop with NO treatment. (but then give a.a. credit, but if they dont stop, you guessed it ,its them, the dirty, "spiritually deseased", deviants)
 I think all what myself and other doubters want ,is for A.A./N.A. to provide say yearly statistics on its sucess rates, retention etc..Its the 21st century ,dont tell me there isnt an impartial way of providing stats on  a cross section of12 step programs, every other medication and treatments have to do this, why is A.A./N.A. so special (or is it scared?)
Btw you know what is the MOST SUCESSFUL way of stopping an addict robbing a house and improving his life, methadone maintenance, yes ,its got a low sucess rate of people who "abstain totally" but in the past 40 years its been proven time and again to be (sadly) an addicts best chance of getting away from chaotic drug fuelled lives. imo maintanace should be the FIRST option discussed with a long term, high risk, i.v. heroin user. 12 step programs should be banned from being mentioned by medical professionals imo untill its rigourosly and fairly tested and REGULATED( to protect vunerable people from perverts and dangerous advice)

Also its o.k. for 12 steppers to slag off methadone, subs, benzo's etc.. but if youve got an opinion  or crticism against the 12 step religion, youre meant to meekly say "its not my cup of tea".


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## cashmunny

donnie080208 said:


> its a place for addicts to find non judgemental help and for harm reductions and debate on treatments, maintenance. etc




rotflmao

best unintentional comedy I've heard in a while


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## cashmunny

donnie080208 said:


> Bl is not devoted to rec. drug use, imo its a place for addicts to find non judgemental help and for harm reductions and debate on treatments, maintenance. etc..



It doesn't seem that way to me. Seems like it's more of a place to discuss how to get high(er) and how to kick. Nevertheless...

I've been around AA/NA for 17 years I would say that it is not very successful, success being defined as continuous abstinence. Maybe 1 or 2 in 10 get a year of continuous abstinence together. Just my ballpark unscientific observation. I would say that another 5 out of 10 get some lesser amount of clean time together. So that leaves another 30-40% of addicts who experience no improvement as defined by getting any amount of clean time.

In terms of more scientific measures, AA/NA as a whole should not get involved with that as it would go against the group guidelines as outlined in the 12 traditions.  But if independent entitities like Universities or the NCAADA want to try their hand at surveying AA/NA members that's great. 

My own opinion is that the reason AA/NA do not work for most people is because they are hard. Popping a pill is easy. Sitting in a meeting for an hour a day, calling sponsors, prayer, meditation, searching and fearless moral inventories are not easy. Personally I like the easy way.

I think a combination approach is best. Addiction after all is not just about a substance for many addicts. It's about an antisocial way of relating to the world. And while methadone or suboxone can treat the craving, it can't make you NOT an asshole. The 12 steps address the latter. On the other hand I think a significant component of the addictive process springs from genetic differences, depression, and childhood trauma. And the 12 steps can't really address those factors as well as medication and psychotherapy can. 

But I've seen what suboxone can do and that stuff is a miracle drug for opiate addicts as far as I'm concerned.


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## New

I always find it interesting when AA members say that measuring AA's success scientifically goes against its traditions...I mean, think about that. What would be more in line with "Attraction, not promotion" than to scientifically show that it is successful at what it claims to do? What is the purpose of the program, then, if not to be successful, and rather just make someone "feel good" about being duped?

It's ok, I was duped by 12-step organizations at one point. Being hoodwinked at a point of mental and emotional weakness doesn't make you stupid. It makes you human. What makes you stupid is if you decide to continue to support an organization which fails at its main selling point after overwhelming evidence. It's ok. I was stupid, too. It happens.


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## donnie080208

@samael, superbly put, A.A. wont open itself to analysis,  not because of their "12 traditions" BUT because they are scared of the out come and the death knell this may sound for the 12 treatment programs if any results show how poorly  a treament option they really are. 
Like you said A.A. as a whole is kept going by preying on the vunerable and weak who are currently susceptible to its nonsensical dogma, because they've abused drink and drugs for the past few years.


@CASHMUMMY why was my comment about Bluelight so funny imo it isnt just a place to learn about getting high or to kick,  but a non judgemental environment to talk  and EDUCATE yourself about drugs . also its a place to find help and get advice if you have mental health problems  or are suicidal ,so id hardly say it  was a "place devoted to recreational drug users"  would you?


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## Syd_Barret

God damn this thread turned gargantuan. 

I think half the problems in AA could be solved if all meetings were mandatory gender segregated. Thats neither here nor there though. I dont believe in AA or anything, but from my brief stint amongst that culture, I can tell you that a high percentage of all relapses or relapses waiting to happen all came from male and female interactions. Plus, a lot of people try to use sex or intimacy to take advantage of recently detoxed individuals that may not be so keen on sex or intimacy atm. THen again they might be, who knows, I'm just saying, gender segregation would be a good thing for a majority of people.
Happened to em as well, I hooked up with a chick I met in rehab, and of coruse next thing you know, we're out shooting together and fucking around. WOnderful.

Anyways, I'm content to just say that AA apparently does work for some people, it might not be able to account for more than the spontaneous rate of people getting better or worse, but people seem to find it useful and its a non-profit organization so no money really to worry about. 
And as long as people don't go trying to convert me to it, I'm fine. Leave me be.
But that rarely happens of course, we're humans after all.


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## Syd_Barret

Double psot sorry


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## donnie080208

@syd  its funny you say that i met my girlfriend at A.A. and now have 2 children with her, was it sensible to get involved with each other, probably not but theres worse ways to meet a partner imo.
 saying this i still agree it should be seperate for M/F though


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## Syd_Barret

it doesnt HAVE to be seperate.
But I gurantee it would only help the cause of AA.


Fuck this keyboard, wont type shit right


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## centaur62

Fascinating articles and discussion.  I have always had a hard time understanding the "philosophy" of AA.  It is clearly based firmly in Christian dogma, much of which is outside my personal belief system.  I believe it is primarily the support of the group, sponsor, program buddies, and the sense of belonging and intimacy they bring that makes twelve step programs effective--for people who respond to that sort of environment.  Of course the Higher Power is the group and the individual's will power, NOT God ("as we understand God").  Anyone who thinks they are surrendering their lives over to God is delusional.  If there is a god, s/he is not intervening in addicts' lives (or anyone else's) to keep them sober.


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## phactor

No we don't, but its working for me now. Group reinforcement, combined with proper counseling and medication give addicts a shot at recovery. I am on Suboxone, Wellbutrin and Serquel and have been clean for 27 days. Not that long but its a fucking miracle considering how sick I am.

I used to trash AA/NA all the time, but little did I know that when I went in with an open mind they would possibly end up saving my life.

Syd - Some people do just go to Mens and Womens meetings. The thing I love about the program is its flexibility, the person in recovery can really make it there own if they want too.

All of the old "its a cult", "I don't want to feel powerless", "its too religious" were just ways I was denying and rationalizing my use. I have been a alcoholic drug addict for years, no way around it. My problem is so bad that I need help from others. I think that asking others for help is one of the hardest and most courageous  things a person can do.


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## barry351

Lacey K wow I totally know and understand what you are saying, I just did a 30 day inpatient treatment program and I would very much like to tell of my visit there. This was a behavior modification type treatment, I had to be up and on the floor at 6am and could not go to bed untill 11 pm everyone there was very tired all the time.

We had group most of the day, there was 21 of us, while sitting in your chair you were not allowed to cross your arms or legs if you broke any rules you got whats called a support, you get 3 of them and you get what they called a door mod which means every time you go through any door way you must say out loud what you did and why it was wrong.

The rules here were just like boot camp, when I recieved work from my councelor I would have to read all my answers to the group while sitting in a chair in the center of the group. Then there was what they called a chair round which you had to sit in front of each patient,look them in the eye,about 3 feet away and say what ever your councelor told you to, one of mine was "when I think of how wonderful the drug world is" then I would have to come up with some thing like I remember all the time I spent in prison, I had to sit in front every patient and think up 20 things concering the drug world which was not a diffcult one.

We were allowed one cup of decaff coffee in the am, no sugar, if you wanted a vitamin,an ibuprofen,or any over the counter med then you had to go see the doctor in town and get his approval, fucking crazy I think. But we were allowed to smoke and I was allowed to take my buprenorphine, I took it twice a day and each time it was given to me rite in front of the group, I thought this cazy also, youve got opiate addicts in severe withdrawal having to watch me take it, it made me feel like a cop out.

This place had so many stupid rules I dont have time to tell them all, I saw people come in and sit in thier chair for a few hours, watching women and men reading thier autobiographies crying thier eyes out in the middle of group,many said oh hell no im out of here. I stayed only because they gave me my meds, my alternative was the county jail and they give me nothing so I had to tough it out and get my certificate and add it to the pile of past in patient and intensive out patient treatment certificates I have.

I really feel you on what you  have to say about N.A.-A.A I have been forced to go so many times, I want to run down the street screaming NO MORE,NO MORE, I realize these meetings help some people, but like you said in a way they are trading one thing for another, its sort of like a religion to some of them. In one of the papers I had to do in treatment I was asked about my higher power and I put down that I didnt need one, that my recovery came from me and nothing else. Well my councelor wrote " say what " and she called me in to the office just for that. I was afraid that if I stuck to my guns about this higher power thing I may not get my certificate, so I told her my higher was in a way like the force on star wars with out the moving of objects with ones mind.

I feel that all the treatment I have been through has not helped me one bit, all the meetings I have been forced to attend have not helped one bit, my recovery comes from within and Im just plain tired of being in trouble from our insane drug laws, I had to make a compromise, I take one buprenorphine a day so am I clean? many would say no, I also would say no because I will go through withdrawal if I stop, but my life is much better on this rather than putting a needle in myself three times a day and spending all my time and money and risking prison for the 4th time. Well I got a little carried away here sorry, but I really agree with you, we must think a little alike, take care now.


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## barry351

Taking methadone may keep you off opiates? huh? thats like saying everclear will keep you of jack daniels, methadone is a synthetic opiate. About the soboxone not working, I see so many people take thier soboxone to early and then they say never again that shit doesnt work! I know everyone is not the same, I was on the soboxone for a few months and then told my doctor it was to expensive.

He then gave me a script for 60 generic subutex (buprenorphine) it is much cheaper than soboxone. He the doctor also told me if he found out I was injecting them there would be no more. I took it for the first time and noticed a little difference, I thought oh its all in my head, then my friend who also got the same as me said hey do you notice a difference? I said ya I can tell they work a little better.

I think the naloxone in the soboxone made me feel strange in some way, I like the plain bups much better, but any way if anyone tries bups or soboxone please wait untill you are very sick then take the pill, you will get better in about and hour. There was a young kid in jail with me a month ago, he was in bad withdrawal 3 days into it, I had a months supply of my bups and felt sorry for the kid so I gave him a half of a pill and in an hour he was fine and went to sleep. 

I would much rather be on methadone than the bups but in my town its a 46 mile drive one way, and finding a doctor in this town that will give an addict methadone is unheard of, I have to drive to seattle to get my bups, thats 100 miles one way but my doctor is really cool he gives me a script of 60 with 3 refills so I only have to drive it every 4 months. I still get high maybe once every other month,  I am very thankful for my bups.


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## Khadijah

when people say methadone can keep you off opiates they mean that methadone can keep you from addictive, abusive use of recreational opiates that you are addicted to.

And to me at least "clean" has nothing to do with whether or not you would go into withdrawal. That aint no way to judge it. You are clean if you stopped using the drug that you were addicted to and do not abuse any other drugs in any other way. 

If you stop shootin heroin 8 times a day and instead get on methadone and take it as prescribed everyday sure you are clean. If you stop usin heroin and you smoke weed once in a while, you are clean. (this is my opinion i understand some people disagree.) "clean" is about how your mind works and how you use the drugs that you DO use. 

Is a heroin addict not clean becuz they are prescribed benzos, which they take as prescribed and dont abuse, just becuz if they stopped takin the benzos they would go into withdrawal?

Physical dependence aint the same as addiction. I am physically dependent on methadone, not addicted to it. I was physically dependent AND addicted to heroin. 

If you are dependent on a medication that a dr. prescribed to you for a good reason and you take it as prescribed and never abuse it then it dont matter WTF medication it is--you can still be clean while bein on that medication.

For example say a person is a oxy addict. they have a script for a legitimate medical condition that they genuinely need it for, but they abuse it. they take too much, they double dose, they buy extra pills from dealers, they run outtaa their script 3 weeks early every month, etc. They decide to get clean tho and stop the addiction.

However they legitimately need the medication for a real medical reason. So they stop takin it in any other way than the way its prescribed to them. they never double dose, or run out early, they never abuse it, they use it exactly as its suppose to be used for their condition. In that case they are clean. I fully believe that and i think alot of the ideas of "clean" are kinda fucked up. if a person has a fuckin tumor on their spine or somethin and they are prescribed opanas , and they are a dopehead, and then they decide to 'get clean', nobody should ever expect them to stop taking their prescribed painkillers, they are scripted those for a definite, clear medical need and without them their life would be full of horrible excruciating pain and suffering every day. So they stop shootin dope and stop sniffing their painkillers and just use them as prescribed and never abuse them--they are clean.

thats how I am clean on methadone and you are clean on suboxone. there is much more to it than the black and white 'do you use any drugs or not', its how and why you take them if you do, not all drug taking when you are clean makes you be 'not clean', it depends on the situation, your mentality, the way you use the drug, etc. thats some of the shit i cant stand about NA. You want to tell me that after kicking a 5 year heroin and opiate addiction , if i smoke weed 3 times a year, i aint clean no more? Fuuuuck you. I am clean. 

Their definition of it is so fuckin narrow becuz some people cant deal in gray areas. they are totally unable to understand the concept of a gray area becuz that would require them to use their own willpower and critical thinking skills instead of just following the group think "rules" of the program. Its much easier to just never use again , and to be either 'using' or 'not using', than to actually take responsibility and control yourself and the way you do shit. AA/NA members cant smoke a blunt now and then if they are heroin addicts becuz it blurs the line too much for them, its all or nothing, if they can smoke weed, then cant they use heroin? they cant differentiate between the different kinds of drug use, and addictive vs non addictive , non harmful use, so its just either one or the other, clean or using. To be abstinent from heroin and using the drugs you addicted to, and just responsibly, moderately use other less harmful non addictive drugs from time to time is totally unheard of and impossible in their eyes, it makes it too complicated. They want something extremely simple and easy to follow and that is the program. they dont handle complex gray area type of thinking too well so they just make a solid line--yes/no, clean/using.

 for me that mentality is bullshit, i KNOW that I absolutely will not fall back into addiction from taking painkillers that the dentist prescribed for a wisdom tooth gettin pulled out. I KNOW that i aint gonna start shootin dope everyday again if i smoke a blunt. I KNOW that drinkin a glass of champagne at a wedding aint gonna put me back on the dope train. I know this shit, and im completely capable of dealin with those situations but for alot of people who are real strict about the program that is too much thinking for them, they cant make the decisions on their own without the program telling them exactly wat to do and the idea of THEM being the ones in control and decidin shit is too scary for them so its easier to just ask somebody else how to act and just go along with the steps.


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## phactor

Lacy - Good for you. I was prescribed Benzos during my intial detox and am now on suboxone. I KNOW that I personally would not be able to control using Benzos on my own. Therefor it is a necessity for me to have my benzo use monitored or controlled. I am learning to use my suboxone responsibly and have never once abused it. However, why tempt it at this point? I am still given opportunities to slowly prove to myself that I can use it responsibly (over the weekends and at night when I am given more then one dose).

AA/NA does not say you cannot take pain medication if needed. That would be insanity. What you do need to know is make the Doctor know you are an addict. Furthermore, for someone like me, it is a necessity for me to let my sponsor and others who care for me to let them know that I am being prescribed pain medication for an operation. Why... because I am an addict and almost destroyed my life by using opiates and other things. I do not want that to happen again. 

I can take ibuprofen any time I want. Its not addictive for me. I can take suboxone and other medications because they help me to not relapse. Its my own damn business. It is my decision to let people know if I want too.

If you are using other drugs responsibly and do not need help, then more power to you. *Do whatever works for you and IMO it is a waste of energy worrying about what works for others*. I however have tried everything under the sun and by the end was addicted to several of them (some physically, all mentally). I have a decade of experience that shows that I cannot use any mind altering substance responsibly. Instead, I now use meditation to get me to where I want and need to be. It takes practice, but its actually healthy for me. Furthermore, there are lots of cool meditation aids that are being developed that really help me achieve the state I want to be in. Things like Hemi-Sync, Binural Tones and Beats, Heart Math etc.

I consider myself clean and so does my program (otherwise I would not be there) and the people I know in the program. Sure there are fanatics, but whatever. It appears that you are casting judgement on something in which you do not understand. I was the same way. Furthermore, nobody fully understands the program, even the oldtimers. I have never once felt forced to conform to anyone else or anything else. In fact its the flexibility of the program that allows it to work for me. I choose what meetings to go to (if I want to go) and who I associate with. Sometimes I do not want to go to meetings but I KNOW it is something that keeps me sober so I make myself go. Its better then being an addict and I can say that with only 29 days clean this time around. My life is so much better today then it was a few weeks ago. Frankly, I was fucking commiting slow suicide and did not realize it until my head cleared. I had no idea how fucked up I was seriously. Otherwise I would not have put myself in a position to have a seizure which could have killed me.

Also, my roommates last relapse started with a terrible sermon that personally attacked him (he is gay) at his brothers wedding followed by a glass of champagne. So for him it did put him back on the dope train. So again, everybody is different. I am glad that you have more control then he does (and for that matter more control then I). 

Barry - This is not my first time in treatment/recovery but I hope it is my last. The major difference is that I have faith in my program and know that its working and I know have an open mind and realize that my habit is well beyond my ability to control it. This feels so much different from any other recovery I have tried (alone or with help) that I cannot explain it.

I have been in places like what you described and they simply do not work (for me). The program I am in now is geared towards professionals. It has a focus on mediation, exercise and positive sobriety. Much of the training is based on research from the U Mass school of Mindfulness. I am not being judgmental but the patients are much smarter then the average addict, therefor the program is more flexible and I actually learn something every day. That is huge for me. Suboxone and other medications allow me the ability to actually tackle my addiction and take care of the anxiety and lack of sleep. Furthermore, I have some mental illness issues that I was self medicating for. The medicines help me to function without having to turn to illegal drugs and massive amounts of alcohol. Frankly, over the last two years the drugs were not working. I spent my last night of use smoking freebase cocaine. I had sunk to a new low. Then I hit an even bigger low two days later.

http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/stress/index.aspx

Unfortunately, it took me to the point of being close to dying (seizure) to admit that I was powerless. After I did so I felt a wave of relief. It is so much easier to stay abstinent the to work the daily circus that is addiction.

I hope at some point you are able to find a better program and enter it with an open mind. As I said I literally spent years trying to convince myself that I could control my use. This is something only an addict will do. If I was not I would A) Not care that I was stopping my use and B) Actually be able to stop fucking using and drinking.

I'd say good luck but its not about luck. IMO its all about actually truly wanting to quit and then taking action to do so.


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## phactor

Also, there is something to be said about group conciseness and group healing. This can be achieved in many different ways. I think that for me AA/NA meetings allow me to "tap in" (old STS9 song ) into this energy and I have heard similar from others. Again, it is what you make it. 

Furthermore, my favorite type of meditation is in groups and that is what works best for me. There is something special about this IMO and it cannot be explained. What I do know is that I have achieved Euphoria and Connectedness during these sessions.

If anyone is interested in this in Chicago then I would suggest checking this out:

http://www.theinsightcenter.com/

I posted this in my previous post but this is an interesting page IMO:

http://www.umassmed.edu/cfm/stress/index.aspx

Mindfullness Based Stress Reduction is much healthier for me then swallowing a pill or snorting something up my nose. It is not as easy, but the comedown or withdraw is nil. 

Also, another great thing about AA is its stress on service work. I know that helping others in a healthy way can really help heal myself. I do need to keep my sobriety as the number one thing though. If it effects me in a bad way then I do not do it. Plain and simple. I have been in positions where I have people pleased and let others take advantage of my kindness/desire to help as well and it is totally different (energy draining and negative).


Oh and thanks for the article Phrozen! I am going to print it out and share it with my small group.


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## Khadijah

Phactor I been going to NA meetings for years now becuz I am forced to go for probation. I got a very good understanding of it, I just really disagree with it. My post was generalized but in it i was mainly talkin about the people who really conform strictly to the steps and not the average people who are decent folks at the meeting. I have experienced a whole lot of discrimination and bullshit from people for bein on methadone, i have seen so many people with terrible injuries and chronic pain conditions or who needed surgeries, etc, been told that they cannot take any pain medication or they will become a miserable relapsed addict in "jails institutions and death", i have heard of sponsors who will drop their sponsee becuz the sponsee took a prescribed antidepressant and refused to sponsor them again until they went off their meds, etc.

 And im sure that aint the norm but in my experience, honestly i have seen waaaay more of this restricting limiting type of shit than accepting "ill mind my own bizness, you take any pills you need to if you really need to" type attitudes. I been to meetings all over the place, lots of different ones, oldtimers and young kids and in between, in rehab and outside of it, AA and NA...so it aint a case of just not goin to the right meeting, at least i dont think so. i understand the shit you saying and from you bein here for years like i have i know you are a smart guy and not a brainwash type of dude to blindly follow somethin like that. I see that your ideas about the shit are moderate and thoghtful and not just some do anything they tell you type attitude. so i appreciate ur response.

The one thing that I would like to warn you tho is just from my personal experience. I have met sooooooo many people who start the program and get clean for a little while, 2 weeks, a month, 3 months, and they just get so into it , talkin about how the program finally saved their life, now they finally gonna be OK, the program is so amazing, they put their all into it becuz its the truth and its the way, etc. they get really into it, so happy becuz they found the solution, all about it.And i have had a lot of those people tell ME that i will be the one using and relapsing cuz I didnt do the steps and they are "the only way", etc. But in that time, i seen every last one of them relapse and end up addicted again or goin on the "relapse/back to the meettings/relapse/back to the meetings' cycle while I been still clean. the reason why is they put too much into the program, too much weight into it, just another thing that was gonna save them, and not enough emphasis on doing the shit for themself truly from inside. i think thats somethin that a lot of people in the program dont do, and thats why theres so much relapsing and the program got such a high failure rate, becuz they devote so much time and energy to the program and meetings, etc, these outside things that just fill up their time and life so they aint got no time to use, and dont focus on really doing the work inside themself and recognizing that their power not to use comes from within and not the program or a higher power but them, and that they are the one in charge, that they do have the power and they can use it.

I seen it a lot, At first it seems so good, so simple, the idea that as long as you just do the shit they tell you to do you can be clean, it seems so freeing and amazing....But just dont let that shit blow you away too much. reality will hit soon and once it does , it gets harder and harder to get clean if you are relying too much on the program to get you thru. you need to develop the shit inside of yourself to make it happen as a permanent thing, and i aint talkin about the steps i mean the basic principles of this shit, self control, discipline, faith in yourself and your future, patience, and the BURNING DESIRE to have a good life and not be a drug addict no more. you gotta really want that shit and take action to do it like you said, which aint got nothing to do with NA, it just is kind of a support for that idea. But the real shit gotta be inside you, and it will always be there whether yuo do a meeting or not, and thats how you ll really stay clean and keep your shit together. you can do both of those things togehter, this internal shit and the NA program, that works fine but i think that if you just put all your faith and effort into NA and ignore your own power in it its really easy to end up like those chronic relapsers. They talk a good game but there aint no substance to the shit, and thats exactly wat NA is without a strong will and faith in yourself.

So keep doin your meetings, I aint tryna discourage you or w/ever. Im just sayin to be careful and  make sure not to become one of the peopel who are just newly gettin started in the program and they get so excited and happy and they on cloud 9 on some shit like "ill never use again , yay NA!" and then eventually it cracks. when it does, just have that internal shit ready so that you got somethin INSIDE you too, not just the outside support of the program, u feel me? Good luck with it yo.


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## phactor

Thanks for the post. Things is I am a chronic relapser and have been so for years. Obviously it is not working. While I have seen many do the relapse and meeting thing, I have also seen people with 15, 20, 30,40 and 50 years of Sobriety. My sponsor has 15 years. I go to meetings that have people with decades long of sobriety. Why? Because they are doing something right. You can also learn what not to do by seeing what the chronic relapsers do. 

Like I said, I found every excuse not to go to AA and did so for years. I question everything that I have to do in AA now. It is often then explained to me in a way that makes sense. I am a very spiritual person by nature but am not religious. I am finding that meetings in Chicago match up much easier with my concept of a higher power.

Also, my program operates on trust. I do not have to prove that I attended a meeting. I went to a terrible one two weeks ago. I left because it was doing more harm then good. At any of my older programs I would have stayed to get a signature. Now I do not have too.

If I do relapse, I hope that it will be quick and I will turn to those that help me. Thats why I call my sponsor everyday. I also call several other contacts routinely. This is practice for a relapse. I will be more comfortable calling and asking for help if I know them better. I do not feel close to a relapse by any means and have medication that helps. However, no addict is exempt from relapse and that must be acknowledged.

Court ordered AA/NA meetings are not the way to go. I know people that go to meetings and then smoke crack or shot up (or both) immediately after. This happens much more frequently in my hometown compared to Chicago. My home town does not have much to offer in rehabilitation because of the massive unemployment here. So the court orders people to attend. I do not think that AA/NA is setup for these people. 

My life is not defined by meetings, far from it. The meeting is a small part of it. I do like to meet people at meetings because at least they are trying to get sober. I am good at reading people and can tell those who are trying to get clean from those that are just there to be there. The program is just one thing that helps keep me sober. Ultimately, it all comes down to me wanting to be sober. I am the one that has to make the effort. The help is out there but I am the one who has to seek it out.

I try to help newcomers (even though I am one) because I know most of them won't make it. If they do not that is on them. But I learn as much from them (what to do and what not to do) as I do from the old timers.

I hate to say it, but intelligence plays a huge role in getting clean. If you can understand what works and what doesn't then it is going to be easier. Its sad but plenty of people are operating on low IQs. Furthermore, drug use tends to cause people to stop maturing in certain ways and I am no exception. I am honestly just now learning to live at 27. I have no "clean/sober time" to look back on because I have been using for so long and started so young. 

My sponsor and those old timers I associate with will all tell you that they only serve as guides. They do not tell you what to do because as you said "it has to come from inside". The single most important thing in getting clean is a true and genuine desire to want to get clean. If you do not have that then you will not get clean, its simply simplistic. 

Anyways, I am going to my second meeting today. I started with AA this morning and and going to NA tonight. I really have nothing better to do today. I visiting my folks in my hometown. I am not confident enough to go out with my friends because I cannot drive due to my seizure. I need to see my doctor. This prevents me from having an exit plan. I haven't been to this meeting yet so I am looking forward to it.


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## donnie080208

I agree that na/aa is narrow minded , religous nonsense BUT i do agree with the all or nothing aproach to drink or drugs for the vast majority of addicts. like someone else said  im a H/booze addict but when given benzo's or any other drug that makes me feel "that feeling" i cant control my intake one bit. the amount of heroin addicts ive known who give up H, then turn into raging alkys is too much of a coincidence .It doesnt allways meaN BECAUSE YOU WERE ADDICTED TO 1 DRUG YOULL ALLWAYS BECOME ADDICTED TO THE NEXT YOU TRY, BUT THE CHANCES YOU WILL ARE VERY, VERY HIGH IME. sorry bout caps bloody kboard


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## dredz

Spent 20 years bouncing in and out of AA. Did multiple 4th steps got down on my knees etc.etc. etc. Would argue with AA's about aspects of the program. Was told not to think. Was told this is the only game in town.

 Have not had a drink or a drug since March. Would I like to go and get blasted right now, Yes, No  not particularly, Don't know to be honest. I would much rather be happy and content than feeling the way I am right now, and It would be nice to be drunk or high as well, but then there is the comedown from that, so I am making a choice today to live in the pain or experience the feelings I am having.

Now what is all that got to do with AA. Absolutely nothing, but I feel better knowing that If I don't make a meeting I am still going to be okay. I can and will use medical science to help me and use psychotherapy and anything else that keeps me sober including my will.

AA did not work for me, yet AA"s would ask me how do I do outside AA. I would respond Not well. And they would ask me How do I do in AA. I would respond and say I stay sober. They would smile and look at me as If i had answered my own question.

They never ask me how i do when I am sleeping, and how I do when I am awake. HUh you ask! I can't explain so well but it's about using flawed logic and someone who explains it very well is this guy.

http://www.orange-papers.org/  I was told to stay away from this site by AA's as it was dangerous. this is the page on debating techniques http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html#granfalloon

I can safely say that for the first time in many many years even though I probably have never been as worse off, mentally financially spiritually, that I can get better, despite my depression, Bipolar, (whatever label you want to put on it)previous  alcohol abuse and dependency.

His argument is not that AA works for some but that it doesen't work and can in actual fact do more harm than good. I tend to agree with him, from my own experience.


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## PurpleLibra

I just read this thread and I'm sitting here DYING laughing at Lacey and her rants. LOL! 

Woman, I think we may have been separated at birth!


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