# bl staff, policy and process feedback



## alasdairm

background: The rise in abuse of power, overstepping of bounds, and unbalanced perspectives on BL 

that thread raised a few interesting questions but derailed pretty badly. let's try again and let's find a way to discuss issues and concerns civilly and constructively.

we're all here for different reasons but we all have something in common - we're all bluelighters. so let's try to be positive, please?

consider:

don't make assumptions about other people's motivations. take questions and comments at face value
try to see things from other people's points of view
if you disagree with somebody, try to think in terms of "_not right and wrong. just different_"
criticize ideas and actions, not individuals
commit to learning, not 'winning' the discussion
avoid blame
avoid speculation
avoid insults and abuse - be respectful and civil
don't assume - e.g. if somebody takes a little while to address your question or concern, maybe they've got something going on irl and can't immediately get back. they're not trolling you
finally, and perhaps most importantly, consider solutions. if something is wrong in your eyes, what would you do to fix it? what are you doing to help? "_better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness_"
if i see posts which fly in the face of the spirit of these ground rules, i'll simply remove them. censorship! oppression! irony! 

hopefully we can have a constructive discussion and make some improvements as a result.

thanks all.

alasdair


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## Jabberwocky

Thank you for putting this together Ali!!!


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## Captain.Heroin

I'll summarize my thoughts from the last thread...

1) Mod-bias can exist, because we are all individuals.  However, there's a phenomenal amount of oversight.  Any user can contest a ban and appeal the decision.  This often doesn't happen because largely people know what they did wrong, and choose to amend their behavior.  

2) We used to issue infractions much more frequently than we do now.  Specifically, I used to, especially while I was a moderator of Other Drugs roughly, uh, some years ago.  Probably like 7, 8 years ago.  That's a lot of years' worth of drugs ago.  Trouble-makers and problematic users were issued many infractions, especially when people were repeat offenders.  

3) The infraction system has changed over time.  Points can be non-expiring now.  We have hence compensated with a greater number of informal warnings, and use hesitation before infracting over each problematic action.  

4) There is no philosophical or political bias.


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## mal3volent

I've been a member on lots of other forums over the years. I'm sure most of you reading this have too. Large forums, small forums. Popular forums, underground forums. Ones with clearly established political views, ones that were totally apolitical.

I've been here for going on 7 years now. Taking into consideration the delicate subject matter we talk about here (either drug related, HR related, politics, etc) and the amount of users...it is INSANE how well regulated the disciplinary system is here. Other places, mods pretty much ban on the spot. Ban first, ask questions later. It is at each mods discretion...whether to ban, how long to ban, etc. 

There are no appeals, or discussion, or threads where admins encourage users to give feedback or make criticisms.

I'm glad to be a part of BL, and part of a group of mods and other staff that take their jobs seriously.


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## Blue_Phlame

If the bullet-points ali posted became actualized, this forum would be a much better place for fair discussions. 

To err is human; to learn is to not make the same mistakes again.


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## Cheshire_Kat

alasdairm said:


> background: The rise in abuse of power, overstepping of bounds, and unbalanced perspectives on BL
> 
> that thread raised a few interesting questions but derailed pretty badly. let's try again and let's find a way to discuss issues and concerns civilly and constructively.
> 
> we're all here for different reasons but we all have something in common - we're all bluelighters. so let's try to be positive, please?
> 
> consider:
> 
> don't make assumptions about other people's motivations. take questions and comments at face value
> try to see things from other people's points of view
> if you disagree with somebody, try to think in terms of "_not right and wrong. just different_"
> criticize ideas and actions, not individuals
> commit to learning, not 'winning' the discussion
> avoid blame
> avoid speculation
> avoid insults and abuse - be respectful and civil
> don't assume - e.g. if somebody takes a little while to address your question or concern, maybe they've got something going on irl and can't immediately get back. they're not trolling you
> finally, and perhaps most importantly, consider solutions. if something is wrong in your eyes, what would you do to fix it? what are you doing to help? "_better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness_"
> if i see posts which fly in the face of the spirit of these ground rules, i'll simply remove them. censorship! oppression! irony!
> 
> hopefully we can have a constructive discussion and make some improvements as a result.
> 
> thanks all.
> 
> alasdair



I'm such a new MOD I tend not to reply...

But This 1000 Times more 

/ Back to my basic MOD mode


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## zephyr

Blue_Phlame said:


> If the bullet-points ali posted became actualized, this forum would be a much better place for fair discussions.
> 
> To err is human; to learn is to not make the same mistakes again.



I have been thinking long and hard about mentioning this and still feel I should and therefore will.


Its one thing to say in public you (and Im addressing staff who stated they admit to making mistakes, see prev thread for names)  make mistakes.  Its one thing to say you are open to discussion and admit to said mistakes.  


However to thise of you who do not actually do this-  please stop saying you are willing to accept you make mistakes when you do not.

Ali:I found the way you addressed the whole lounge thing as a mistake and you knew immediately when it happened and then saying if you could do it again you would very ruthless and also plain wrong.

If you were just bliwing off steam rhen that makes sense.

Nobody should close a forum on all its inhabitants just because of an annoying few for any reason, period.

Also once again to BP only: apologies.


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## phr

There was a time when it was, or even looked like or even alleged, that there was personal beef between a staff member and a regular member, then the staff member should defer infractions/warnings/bans. That was a KEY rule to prevent unfair treatment. That has long disappeared and has been abused, especially by alasdairmin my case and most likely with jah, and a bunch of others.

It has long turned from "doing what's best for the community" to "instituting what I want and getting rid of everyone that disagrees in any way possible." This has been done under the guise of "it's what's best to continue the surveys," which is ridiculous. The site's most valuable resource are its drug abusing members. Whether they're censored or not is of no value to the people running the surveys. Do you honestly think a surveyor will be like "nah, we'll pass this droppersneck person called Harlem a zoo"?

Anyway, it's been at the point where:

Staff don't think person X did anything wrong, well I'll just step in and infract/ban anyway. It's my way or the highway.

Change here won't happen until alasdairm is no longer on staff or calling the shots. Period. How bad is it? Hell, people are so afraid of him they're unwilling to use their real BL names to criticize him off-site because they will be receiving, what we call, the "PM buttblast."

BP posted an infographic of the top posters in TL and he listed the reasons why they don't post there. Let's see that posted again with the relationship those people had with alasdairm and his policies taken into account. I'd be shocked if those people didn't all leave because of his policy change and/or him personally running them off with infractions/bans.

I'll end by saying that based on the zeitgeist here, it would not be surprising if this post of mine was edited, unapproved, or if I get infracted for it. And nothing will change as long as he's still the numba one shot caller.


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## alasdairm

my hope was that people would find a way to embrace the sprit of the bullet points in my first post. oh well 



phr said:


> I'll end by saying that based on the zeitgeist here, it would not be surprising if this post of mine was edited, unapproved, or if I get infracted for it.


the martyr act gets pretty old but you won't be edited, unapproved or infracted because your post doesn't break the forum guidelines or the blua. it's that simple.

if you feel everything is my fault, contact the owners (or start a petition or whatever) about having me removed. seriously, if you think it's that bad, make your case. i serve at the pleasure of the site owners - if they want me gone because i'm so awful, i'll step down tomorrow.

alasdair


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## tathra

phr said:


> That has long disappeared and has been abused, especially by alasdairmin my case and most likely with jah, and a bunch of others.



if that were true then why havent you been permabanned yet?


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## alasdairm

right. the irony is that i've been petitioned by many staff and bluelighters to just permaban phr and others and i've been the one saying that we have to be consistent and not just arbitrarily ban them, regardless the vitriol they spout about bl and its staff 

on the issue of people being afraid to use their real names off-site, i call more b.s.

we generally don't share staff-only discussion but i made these comments and i think they illustrate here:

from april 19th 2018: 





alasdairm said:


> we've never policed off-site comments and i don't think we should.



from march 9th 2018: 





alasdairm said:


> we can't police off-site activity...



from january 1st 2018: 





alasdairm said:


> we can't police things that happen off the board...



(the links won't work as they link to threads in the staff forum)

your claim is utter b.s., phr. i am defending people's right to say whatever they want off-site and i reiterate that here.

alasdair


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## spacejunk

^ right.
Even though some people argue that we could rightfully do so, as per the BLUA #13;



> Specifically, you may not:
> 
> use other Internet sites to promote libelous or slanderous messages about Bluelight or incite abuse against Bluelight; use Bluelight to solicit members to third-party sites



But, of course we don't do that.


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## phr

Me being permabanned is not a necessary act for my claim to be true.

My post is my opinion, based on what I've seen and what I've experienced. Some share my opinion and some do not.

I don't believe the owners care, based on my discussion with one. It's also the easy way out to continue as is. They're not here, they don't participate, and it's much easier to continue on as is, so why change things? Change isn't easy. See the effort needed to close TL? We're here because of that change. How much easier would it have been to continue on with it as it was?

Was the change worth it? What was gained beyond the huge drop in traffic and the removal/leaving of the top posters in TL?

I saw an active forum that sometimes pushed the limits, and when the limits were pushed the offenders were banned. I saw that turned into the turd of a dead forum it is now. But, that doesn't matter when the people that were wanted to be gone are gone.


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## alasdairm

phr said:


> How much easier would it have been to continue on with it as it was?


it would have been very easy - much easier than making a change - because:


phr said:


> ...it's much easier to continue on as is...



but the right thing and the easy thing are, as you seem to agree, rarely the same thing.



phr said:


> Was the change worth it?


yes.

your view one way of looking at it. it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. i note you are not edited, unapproved or banned for speaking out.

alasdair


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## phr

alasdairm said:


> right. the irony is that i've been petitioned by many staff and bluelighters to just permaban phr and others and i've been the one saying that we have to be consistent and not just arbitrarily ban them, regardless the vitriol they spout about bl and its staff
> 
> on the issue of people being afraid to use their real names off-site, i call more b.s.
> 
> we generally don't share staff-only discussion but i made these comments and i think they illustrate here:
> 
> from april 19th 2018:
> 
> from march 9th 2018:
> 
> from january 1st 2018:
> 
> (the links won't work as they link to threads in the staff forum)
> 
> your claim is utter b.s., phr. i am defending people's right to say whatever they want off-site and i reiterate that here.
> 
> alasdair





spacejunk said:


> ^ right.
> Even though some people argue that we could rightfully do so, as per the BLUA #13;
> 
> 
> 
> But, of course we don't do that.


So which is it? It's in the BLUA that you're not allowed to say shit about BL off site. Spacey just quoted it.

You've also PM'ed people about them saying stuff off site. Hell, I was personally given an ultimatum, that I've posted, to stop talking shit on reddit or I'll be removed from staff. The owner of the site specifically said I was banned here because I banned you on reddit and it basically turned into a tit for tat situation.

Like I said, people are afraid to use the same handle because they get buttblasted via PM about it or they'll get removed down the road because they have a different opinion.

Dude, you removed tude from staff because she didn't share the same vision as you. She was outspoken about it. She never once said "i will not do what you say" she just didn't agree with it. Same for me. 

I know it plays into whatever political narrative you try to push, about tolerance and all that jazz, but you're completely intolerant to views that you don't share and you're quick to remove anyone that disagrees.


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## phr

alasdairm said:


> it would have been very easy - much easier than making a change - because:
> 
> 
> but the right thing and the easy thing are, as you seem to agree, rarely the same thing.
> 
> yes.
> 
> your view one way of looking at it. it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. i note you are not edited, unapproved or banned for speaking out.
> 
> alasdair


Run a poll. Should The Lounge have been changed to Social as it is now or should it have been left alone.

I dared you, and the others, to start Social and to let TL continue as is as a non-publicly visible forum, just for 6 months and if it wasn't popular to shut it. You didn't want to do that and exactly as I predicted happened: the forum died.

Of course it's worth it to you, but to all the people that left and don't post anymore it's not worth it. Yes, I do note my posts haven't been removed or edited.


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## alasdairm

phr said:


> So which is it? It's in the BLUA that you're not allowed to say shit about BL off site. Spacey just quoted it.


the precise text is "_use other Internet sites to promote libelous or slanderous messages about Bluelight or incite abuse against Bluelight; use Bluelight to solicit members to third-party sites_"

that doesn't prohibit anybody from posting off-site.



phr said:


> Hell, I was personally given an ultimatum, that I've posted, to stop talking shit on reddit or I'll be removed from staff.


the problem in your case was not that you were posting but that you opted to create and manage a forum which seemed designed to incite abuse and disruption on bl. we're not a corporation but there are parallels. imagine you were ceo of ford and found out that one of your employees started a website called http://fordcarsareshit.com encouraging people to boycott buyoing ford cars. it's problematic and i can't imagine you'd allow it to continue because free speech is so important...



phr said:


> you're completely intolerant to views that you don't share and you're quick to remove anyone that disagrees.


i disagree.

alasdair


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## alasdairm

so, in the spirit of the op, phr feels that there are numerous issues with me as an admin. and that numerous problems would be solved by simply removing me. does anybody else agree with his analysis?

alasdair


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## spacejunk

^ No.




@phr - That wasn't a "gotcha".  We dont bother enforcing our rules on anything said offsite. 
We could. But _why?_
Surely that would be obvious to anyone who has acquainted themselves with your site.

We do enforce the bit about not plugging bitch-about-bl sites here.  Obviously 



> not use Bluelight to solicit members to third-party sites


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## Sebastians_ghost

> The owner of the site specifically said I was banned here because I banned you on reddit and it basically turned into a tit for tat situation?



When did this discussion take place?  I don?t think you and I have spoken for many years. I also not aware that you r ever emailed or PMed me with any grievance.  

I would like to genuinely get to the bottom of whatever it is you?re upset about and understand why you believe Ali is at the root of the problem.  All I see is a lot of personal attacks on him for enforcing rules, such as editing/banning for racist and homophobic comments.  Regardless of what anyone else things, Bluelight will never be a place that welcomes racism or hatespeach in any form.  


If there is something else I?m missing, I?d genuinely like to know about it and will make time to hear your side of the story.  Feel free to reach out anytime.

SG


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## Jabberwocky

alasdairm said:


> so, in the spirit of the op, phr feels that there are numerous issues with me as an admin. and that numerous problems would be solved by simply removing me. does anybody else agree with his analysis?
> 
> alasdair



No. 

I can think of too many instances that, without your reliably calm, restrained never-shoot-from-the-hip demeanor, this place would have gone to hell in about 48hrs.   

This thread is a good example. Look at how quickly the original thread escalated and imploded, then compare to this thread. I don’t think we’d be able to even discuss BP’s concerns without your influence. 

I regret lumping BP in with the behavior of droppers and Phr prior to now. If anything it now seems clearly like the offsite BL cabal has tried to exploit this situation with BPs concerns (not illegitimate concerns, even if I disagree with the bulk of them) for their own ends. 

I didn’t see anything in BP’s grievances about TL, it’s was about interstaff conduct (especially for those of you who were privy to it, it was literally all about interstaff issues). Of course, now it has essentially become all about TL, how the leadership decided to finally start implementing the BLUA there same as every other forum on this site and how that is somehow a miscarriage of justice... 

That’s old news though, and we are obviously not going back to the old TL. What I am interested in discussing more of BP’s original concerns. It would seem crucial that staff concerns are addressed and that staff have a harmonious “working environment” on the boards. 

As this continues to cool down, assuming we don’t just stay limited to the topic of TL - which does seem rather mute considering direction from management - maybe we could talk about how to achieve a more constructive environment in the staff forums when serious disputes arise. To me that would seem to mostly be a discussion for staff, but maybe others not on staff have suggestions?

It would be kinda cool to have a way for staff to address issues they have with other people on staff in constructive, positive ways - especially that kind of thing can make tempers easily flare. As it is right now, it seems like that is mostly up to the individual to facilitate in bringing their issues forward. 

It would be cool to have more framework there (or an I just missing an entire section of the handbook I overlooked that deal with this specific interstaff grievance issue?).


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## phr

alasdairm said:


> the problem in your case was not that you were posting but that you opted to create and manage a forum which seemed designed to incite abuse and disruption on bl. we're not a corporation but there are parallels. imagine you were ceo of ford and found out that one of your employees started a website called http://fordcarsareshit.com encouraging people to boycott buyoing ford cars. it's problematic and i can't imagine you'd allow it to continue because free speech is so important...


It wasn't designed to incite abuse or disruption on BL. It was designed as a continuation of TL. You know how TL was right before you closed it? That's what it was supposed to be. Matter of fact, once the abuse/harassment started, the people that wanted to continue on with that left that sub and started their own. The situation that exists now as a free for all shit show there is because you did not want to contain that on this site as it was contained in TL.


alasdairm said:


> so, in the spirit of the op, phr feels that there are numerous issues with me as an admin. and that numerous problems would be solved by simply removing me. does anybody else agree with his analysis?
> 
> alasdair


Nobody is going to honestly disagree with you. This line of questioning rarely works when a superior is asking. There's a reason why anonymous surveys about management exist. There's a reason why retaliation laws exist. You're not dumb, you know what I'm getting at here.


Sebastians_ghost said:


> When did this discussion take place?  I don?t think you and I have spoken for many years. I also not aware that you r ever emailed or PMed me with any grievance.
> 
> I would like to genuinely get to the bottom of whatever it is you?re upset about and understand why you believe Ali is at the root of the problem.  All I see is a lot of personal attacks on him for enforcing rules, such as editing/banning for racist and homophobic comments.  Regardless of what anyone else things, Bluelight will never be a place that welcomes racism or hatespeach in any form.
> 
> 
> If there is something else I?m missing, I?d genuinely like to know about it and will make time to hear your side of the story.  Feel free to reach out anytime.
> 
> SG


It was conversation I had with TLB.

TL was just fine before its closure and the rules were enforced. A small select group, or rather mostly alasdairm, did not like it, how it was run, who was there posting, so he closed it. All of the top posters left, some started offshoots that are worse than TL ever was times 10 in regards to "offensive" material, and TL's replacement has been an utter failure. The people that clamored for its closure said "meh" and never bothered posting when they were given what they wanted. People that liked it are still bitching and upset a year and half later and are here complaining.

I think if there's a takeaway it's that people really fucking liked TL and the fact that even this long after its closure are still bitching and moaning tells you how much they liked it and how upset they still are for having it taken away from them.

I asked alasdairm in the past, but name one time that someone said "oh, i don't take those drug users seriously because someone said modfag in their social forum. it taints their image." I still haven't been given an example.


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## alasdairm

phr said:


> The situation that exists now as a free for all shit show there is because you did not want to contain that on this site as it was contained in TL.


the content of the sub. to which you refer is the only reminder i need that we were absolutely right to address the long-standing issues with the transition. we may have lost traffic (and traffic is down regardless of the lies) but, with the lounge, we're aiming a little higher than "_a free for all shit show_".



phr said:


> ...how upset they still are for having it taken away from them.


the lounge/social was not taken away (except for a brief couple of days during the transition). it's still there and people are free to post as long as they stick to the rules. if people are as upset as you say they are that they can't call people nigger and faggot anymore then i don't know what to tell you but i think that is a depressing perspective.



phr said:


> I asked alasdairm in the past, but name one time that someone said "oh, i don't take those drug users seriously because someone said modfag in their social forum. it taints their image." I still haven't been given an example.


that's a curious characterization which you and people like droppers like to push. i have never discussed the lounge issues in those terms but i've become pretty used to having my position on issues mischaracterized, misrepresented and lied about.

alasdair


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## sekio

I'm still a little baffled that people are _still_ so hurt by the idea of making derogatory racial/sexual epithets unacceptable on BL. Is the need for openly calling people 'faggots' or 'niggers' really the hill you want to die on? Does it really make the forum and the discussion that much better?



> even this long after its closure are still bitching and moaning tells you how much they liked it and how upset they still are for having it taken away from them.



The only "bitching and moaning" seems to be coming from people who desire so deeply the right to call people names. There's hardly a mass demonstration going on. In fact I bet if a poll were created more than 75% of people would consider it unacceptable to use slurs in TL. It's not accepted in polite conversation nor is it acceptable on any other boards here. Go post on stormfront or wherever if it's so important to your forum experience that you must slander blacks or gays or whomever.


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## tathra

phr said:


> Nobody is going to honestly disagree with you. This line of questioning rarely works when a superior is asking. There's a reason why anonymous surveys about management exist. There's a reason why retaliation laws exist. You're not dumb, you know what I'm getting at here.



fine, *i'll* run a poll somewhere else, where ali isnt admin but is full of blers, and we'll see how it turns out.


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## swilow

Topic started well until phr chose to dominate with off topic and personal individual grievance with a specific person that has been playing out for years now. 

Lets talk about bluelight and not phrozen or ali.


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## tathra

results thus far is that nobody really agrees that ali is the problem.


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## sekio

"Phrozen loves diaper furries" is tied with "eggs". Ok, that's great.

My vote goes to eggs.


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## alasdairm

if anybody has comments or criticism and they're genuinely scared to respond in this thread, you can contact us anonymously via: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/sendmessage.php

you can use a fake name and burner email and the feedback will be sent to the admin gmail from where i'll just repost it here.

alasdair


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## zephyr

tathra said:


> if that were true then why havent you been permabanned yet?




Iirc,  this person copped ban after ban for coming back and behaving the same way as this person did prior to said ban.

Until such time said person managed to once again become his usual self which would have earned said bans if this person was treated with some consistency.

However, that is not the case.

This person has caused more grief behind the safe little space created which even using a reddit avatar earned someone else a ban,  but these days is fodder for fire for fed up mods in cep 

This person was publically humiliated and I wont pretend I care, I dont- his behaviour since has been fucked but I guess a lot less hassle "dealing with" than a badly thought out meme or whatever unforgivable faux pas are dolled out now.



Hey, tude got canned too- she really was cool and teally deserved better.  Just thought she should be mentioned,   remember her?  Cant blame her for being angry.


So yeah why no permaban?


Because they dont exist?  Yeah sure they dont.  Maybe they should exist again.  


This infraction system is causing problems that can be seen from the side that cops them.  They solve nothing and just make things worse.


As for dishing out warnings etc,  they really arent that hard to do-  there were never as many disciplinary actions taken when the board was pumping as there are now.  It seems really slack when staff complain about giving out infractions and just infracting and banning is lazy.  How about try something different like pwning trolls with a cutting one liner or cant you do that anymore?


It doesnt matter what system bl has in the end,  trolls will beat it and it WILL  be a bone of contention between members and staff.

 Irony aside,  no matter how unfair phr says I was,  the power of veto was always there and is there for a reason. 

He SHOULD have been permabanned,  or his reddit creation dealt with a long time ago.  




I dont do bullet points and am not a robot, dont think youll read this and will just say patronising shit about me behind my back anyway so yeah,  its the owners site.  If they like things as they are then great.  If they like the infraction system or even know its changed and WHY it changed, great.





Who knows?  Its not like they are seen around the place so wouldnt give a shit anymore.



Ali - the many years of fun postwhoring  aroind tl with a bunch of mutual friends might be years ago,  but at the end of the day you always were a stand up guy and youre not shifty or intent on clinging onto your admin spot for the wrong reasons.   

While I have thought since reading your "if I could do it again I would" comnent,  you should not be in the position you are as you're too dangerous and destructive-  its not actually YOU thats the problem,  cultures become toxic over time and itll take gentle nudging over time to fix.

Ill admit its easy to take bait and let off steam where it shouldnt happen as thats as bad as reddit.   I got balls enough to talk here without resorting to that.

Poll was not the best idea, apologies if my answer upset ya ali.  I didnt see where  it was coming from, now have,  just a few idiots calling for your head.  Calling for their heads didnt work unfortunately.  I think im mad at you because i love ya and dont understand why things just cant be fun like the old days.


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## alasdairm

p.s. if you use the contact form, make sure to log out first (or use an incognito/private browsing window) or your username will be logged.

alasdair


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## zephyr

sekio said:


> I'm still a little baffled that people are _still_ so hurt by the idea of making derogatory racial/sexual epithets unacceptable on BL. Is the need for openly calling people 'faggots' or 'niggers' really the hill you want to die on? Does it really make the forum and the discussion that much better?
> 
> 
> 
> The only "bitching and moaning" seems to be coming from people who desire so deeply the right to call people names. There's hardly a mass demonstration going on. In fact I bet if a poll were created more than 75% of people would consider it unacceptable to use slurs in TL. It's not accepted in polite conversation nor is it acceptable on any other boards here. Go post on stormfront or wherever if it's so important to your forum experience that you must slander blacks or gays or whomever.



Using those 2 words in an aggressive slur is against the blua across the board right?  Or just any mention of those wirds?  Is adking if we can say n or f now- an aggressive racial homobhobic slur?  Or just a drunk bloke surly about once again an absentee mod allowing a chick to say f but cracking down on blokes?

This whole n and f bullshit was brought up years ago when atri and animal cookie were mods iirc,  has been bounced around since then and handled very differently depending on who was running the place 

There were mods after that encouraged their use as a big f you,  maybe that was the time to reign it in?

so its actually NOT TRUE that tl was just a bunch of bigots intent of saying n and f.  It was just a recurring meme and Id bet if the whole thing was dropped no one really would use n and would prol still use f as in "modfag".

Im suprised you or anyone else has used those words here as  it costs ppl their accounts in tl.


Maybe you and anyone else using them here just shouldnt as you look really childish .


----------



## tathra

zephyr said:


> Im suprised you or anyone else has used those words here as  it costs ppl their accounts in tl.



intent matters, and context is everything.


----------



## zephyr

^ exactly.  Using the word fig should be ok when talking about figs.  Context is not judged without bias and you know it.

The capital F should be ok for all.

And bloody hell talking about these 2 bloody words again! 

 Any mention of n***** or f***** has been used for infractions or not even if not used as an aggressive insult!


Hey what about obscene insults that arent homophobic or racist- thats okay right? 8)

 Depends on who sees it first as to what happens!

Srsly if it gets just dropped and time passes itll just pass,  its not as if literally anyone uses them except as a meme reference to tl.

Its not hard to just remove a few stupid words and not make a big deal.

Its really insulting and horrific to see tl STILL being bullshitted about by staff who never really bothered giving tl a chance and never gave us a hand with participating in it when it shut/socialed.  

So please dont continue the racist/homophobic rubbish about it,  its really not true .


----------



## mal3volent

What part of this do you not understand?



> *A note on the BLUA #4
> 
> Bluelight takes the issue of bigotry seriously. If you write this off as political-correctness gone mad or SJW behavior, that's an opinion to which you are entitled but you may find that Bluelight - and therefore The Lounge - is not for you. If you want to aggressively insult people and pepper those insults with racism, homophobia or other bigotry, you're not welcome here.
> 
> From the BLUA: "Specifically, you may not: ...post or upload any content that victimizes, harasses, degrades, or intimidates an individual or group of individuals on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or any other reason;"
> 
> We do not allow hateful speech so terms such as nigger, faggot, spic, kike, chink, gook, wetback, etc. are forbidden. There's no formal list of banned words and both what you say and the way you say it are taken into account when considering whether something is a problem. If you're not sure whether something you want to post is problematic, err on the side of caution and don't post it or contact the mod. team and ask them for their opinion.
> 
> Trying to skirt round this rule by masking words or adding a suffix or prefix won't work either. So don't call somebody a 'newfag' or a 'fig' pejoratively. We'll just assume you mean 'fag' and action will be taken anyway.
> 
> What may happen based on mod. discretion:
> 
> 
> 
> An edit with an explanation that it's not allowed.
> UA'ed content and PM sent with explanation and link to guidelines
> Warning or infraction issued
> 
> 
> If this all sounds terribly oppressive and you think you should be able to call people nigger and faggot freely, that's a perfectly valid opinion but, again, you may find that Bluelight - and therefore The Lounge - is not for you.*


----------



## phr

alasdairm said:


> if anybody has comments or criticism and they're genuinely scared to respond in this thread, you can contact us anonymously via: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/sendmessage.php
> 
> you can use a fake name and burner email and the feedback will be sent to the admin gmail from where i'll just repost it here.
> 
> alasdair


People can comment all they want. You are unable to tolerate a different point of view that you do not agree with. It's your way or the highway, regardless if the other way has no impact on anyone or anything except on your delicate sensibilities. That's the point here. Everyone wanted TL to continue as it was since its inception. You, and a couple of your buddies (who were not active in TL compared to us active people) did not want it to continue as is. You had the power to change it in your favor and as soon as you had an opportunity, the death of yet another BL'er, you had your "straw that broke the camel's back" and had justification to close and take it away. Once you guys got your forum and pushed us all out, it died. That is because you guys didn't really care about having the forum, you just didn't want us to do something that was against your delicate sensibilities. You frame this as "decency vs. TL" when in fact it's "alsdairm's sensibilities vs TL" or "alasdairm's power vs no power."



alasdairm said:


> the content of the sub. to which you refer is the only reminder i need that we were absolutely right to address the long-standing issues with the transition. we may have lost traffic (and traffic is down regardless of the lies) but, with the lounge, we're aiming a little higher than "_a free for all shit show_".


That is a mischaracterization of what TL was when you closed it. It was not a free for all shit show. People were not saying nigger and faggot and getting away with it. Hell, I banned more people for stuff like that than anyone else. Plus, anyone so much as thought about using something you thought was an epithet you bombarded the reported posts forum with "bula abuse." Sup Max Powers.



> the lounge/social was not taken away (except for a brief couple of days during the transition). it's still there and people are free to post as long as they stick to the rules. if people are as upset as you say they are that they can't call people nigger and faggot anymore then i don't know what to tell you but i think that is a depressing perspective.


Again, a mischaracterization. Not once did any of us fight to say nigger and faggot. Matter of fact I said that it'll never happen and it's a stupid thing to argue over. We wanted it to remain the same as it was and we wanted the little freedom we gained when you finally allowed us to say things like modfag and to call things gay. You remember the little experiment we ran towards the end, where you let us say those things? You asked us multiple times, over a few weeks, how that experiment was going. BP, myself, and others all said it was going well -things are in order, less people are banned, once they can say something it's no longer taboo, etc. Yet that wasn't the answer you wanted to hear, so you kept asking it again and again. Sup BP, remember that?



> that's a curious characterization which you and people like droppers like to push. i have never discussed the lounge issues in those terms but i've become pretty used to having my position on issues mischaracterized, misrepresented and lied about.
> 
> alasdair


Funny, cause that's exactly what you're doing here with us "you guys wanted to say nigger/faggot/etc" and that's not true at all.


------------------------------------

*Nevertheless* the proof is in the pudding. You got your way and here we are with a dead forum. You can blame it on The Facebook, IG, snapchat, or you can just look at BP's chart and see that you personally had a hand in pushing out the majority of the top posters. None of those people said "i'll go to FB." What they said was "TL was taken away from me." Not literally like you're trying to misdirect here, "oh it was only closed for a day" but figuratively.

You won, your forum is dead. The end.


----------



## zephyr

You appear to be attempting some kind of condesending post mal.


----------



## sekio

in other news though



> Using those 2 words in an aggressive slur is against the blua across the board right? Or just any mention of those wirds?



As much as phr and friends seem to imply that the mere act of typing "nigger" is going to result in an instant permaban, context matters. Here I am using the term _per se_ as a word only, it's not in reference to anyone.  In other contexts it would not be appropriate. You'll notice I don't make a habit of using either word in my posts.



> People can comment all they want. You are unable to tolerate a different point of view that you do not agree with. It's your way or the highway,



If ali was as evil as you claim, this thread wouldn't exist and your account would have been permbanned a long time ago. I think ali is amazingly patient given all the chaff he has to deal with.


----------



## phr

I'll end this by giving two examples of the type of person you are, alasdairm, and why I don't believe your moral high ground stance. People that have dealt with you can attest to this, though I'm sure they would never have the balls to do it publicly, except maybe a couple of us. Sup lysis.


Droppers caught an infraction that lead to a ban. I don't remember the particulars, but it was a mistake. Anyone that looked at the post that got him the ban realized it was done in error. I point this out in the staff forum, either in the ban thread or the infraction thread. You look at it and agree that it's a mistake and should be overturned.

I wait, and I say, OK, do the right thing and overturn it. You refuse. You say "if droppers wants his ban overturned he has to speak up through the proper channels and we'll do it." THAT represents whom you are. You know what the right thing is, but you refuse to do it because it's for someone you don't like. It's not about doing the right thing, it's about what YOU personally want done. (Same with closing TL and kicking us out. Wasn't about doing the right thing, just about pushing your personal vendetta or agenda. 

And another example.

We were playing IWS and TNW won the round so he made questions and scored them. He took your answer to a question in different way and he gave you very low to no points for it. It was probably some sort of technicality he tends to get caught up in. You should have gotten the points, or it could have gone either way, and he didn't give you the points. You were fuming over it.

I won the round so I was making questions and scoring them. You PM me and tell me to give TNW a score of 0, regardless of what it should be. You go on about how the scorer can score anyway they want, regardless of whether it's correct or not, and that he should get a 0. I say NO, I'm not doing that. It's not fair and it doesn't matter if it's unfair to a person I don't like (i didn't like TNW one bit then). You didn't like that answer from me and you ended it with "fine i'll win and get him back myself."

The fact that you would ACTUALLY do something like that, or rather seek out to do something like that, just over some petty shit like an IWS score says all one needs to know about your true motivations.

-------------------

My point with all of this is you have no moral high ground. I don't believe you when you say you wanted to "clean up TL" and I most certainly don't believe you when you say, with no proof, that TL effects the image of some drug injecting addicts. You think your behavior that I highlighted above is OK behavior, but when drippersneck makes a stupid fried chicken and grape soda joke, oh that can't stand. Please. Let people be who they want and when it actually harms the site then do something. And do something with everyone's input and opinion.


----------



## mal3volent

zephyr said:


> You appear to be attempting some kind of condesending post mal.



not at all. I was just wondering why there's still all this talk about what kind of language is and isn't allowed when it's clearly spelled out at the top of the forum.


----------



## tathra

phr said:


> Please. Let people be who they want and when it actually harms the site then do something.



we're better off without bigots and people who get their jollies from belittling, denigrating, and/or harassing others.  you'll never believe it but that kind of stuff causes real harm.

every community has behavioral guidelines. those who selfishly refuse to follow them are unwelcome, thats how its always been for as long as society has existed.


----------



## alasdairm

alasdairm said:


> criticize ideas and actions, not individuals
> commit to learning, not 'winning' the discussion
> avoid blame
> avoid speculation


oh well...

thanks for the comments so far.

alasdair


----------



## zephyr

^  mal...If you dont understand then it doesnt have much to do with you.   




I dont think thats very important anyway,  it just became a stupid on going meme,  no one fought to use those words specifically.  



All Ill say is things done could have been handled better.

Cant change that now right?


The least that admin could do is recognize the fact that this is wrong.




> the lounge/social was not taken away (except for a brief couple of days during the transition). it's still there and people are free to post as long as




This is totally wrong and all you gotta do is go back and see for yourself that the "old lounge" NEVER reopened.  The Social forum was a blank page and a very messy confusing time for everyone,  a time where heaps of people were beginning their route down into being a known troll,  even busty was canned for having an alt ali knew for years was him just to shut him up.


And so much for " this is an inclusive place for all".


 If you want to wipe away that part of bl history as nothing, think again.


Not happening.


----------



## tathra

all of the lounge-related stuff was already discussed.  can lounge-specific issues be taken there?

Most appropriate place to put forward ideas to help bl that are not technical

cep-specific stuff also has its own thread 

CE&P Rules / Moderation / cduggles

rather than rehashing those 2 threads here can we discuss stuff more related to this thread's intended purpose, and put lounge and cep specific stuff into the threads specifically for them?


----------



## alasdairm

phr said:


> You say "if droppers wants his ban overturned he has to speak up through the proper channels and we'll do it."


right. maybe he didn't want his ban overturned - like a few others here, he loves the play the martyr.

droppers has had 5 infractions reversed on review. how on earth can that be?

i'm sure he appreciates the white-knighting but he's a big boy and can ask to have an infraction reviewed all on his own. if he wants to, i am sure he will.



phr said:


> We were playing IWS and TNW won the round so he made questions and scored them. He took your answer to a question in different way and he gave you very low to no points for it. It was probably some sort of technicality he tends to get caught up in. You should have gotten the points, or it could have gone either way, and he didn't give you the points. You were fuming over it.
> 
> I won the round so I was making questions and scoring them. You PM me and tell me to give TNW a score of 0, regardless of what it should be. You go on about how the scorer can score anyway they want, regardless of whether it's correct or not, and that he should get a 0. I say NO, I'm not doing that. It's not fair and it doesn't matter if it's unfair to a person I don't like (i didn't like TNW one bit then). You didn't like that answer from me and you ended it with "fine i'll win and get him back myself."


and people say i'm humourless? 

let's have a look at the _actual_ pm shall we? here it is (from july 23rd 2014):



			
				alasdairm said:
			
		

> hey man
> 
> see: http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...can-Summer?p=12490617&viewfull=1#post12490617
> http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...can-Summer?p=12490618&viewfull=1#post12490618
> 
> i implore you to score the next round completely arbitrarily - give points to people you like and zeroes to those you don't. tnw and mikeokim especially get zeroes.
> 
> when they all start crying, just refer them to tnw's and mikeoekim's posts
> 
> if you don't want to, that's cool. i will win a round and i'll do it
> 
> later
> 
> ali


it's obvious to anybody (except you apparently) that i was just having a bit of fun. i never told you to do anything - i implored you. interesting that you chose to omit the smileys to try to suggest a completely different tone to this message. pretty lame dude.

alasdair


----------



## Jabberwocky

I love if we could discuss BPs concerns (or at least what I understand they were) related to interstaff conflict.


----------



## zephyr

Oh great.   The "brush off".   Noce one Tath, I was addressing Alasdairm and will await a retraction of his statement.  If that is what he honestly thinks,  I do not know that person and never did.  


 What is the point then of this thread?

Just to give the appearance of being seen to address issues?


Oh of course.  Well jeez, fell for that one hey.


Great.  



How about dont bother,  what you do and who you have making these decisions is totally on you mods.

Dont you dare ever try to blame anything you do on the few members you have left.  Thats not going to work anymore.


Good luck!


----------



## tathra

zephyr said:


> Oh great.   The "brush off".   Noce one Tath, I was addressing Alasdairm and will await a retraction of his statement.



you'll find that everything you're bringing up and asking about was already addressed the last time it was discussed, ali acknowledging the lounge transition could have been handled better, addressing the lounge archive integration you keep bringing up, and everything else.  if showing you where everything you're talking about has already been addressed is a "brush off" then yeah, I'm brushing you off.  you act like this stuff hasnt been talked about before but it has, you're bringing up the exact same things that were answered months ago.  go read the answers instead of acting like they don't exist, then ask new stuff instead of stuff that's already been addressed. if you're not satisfied with the answers and explanations thats fine.


----------



## swilow

But the majority of us, as ever, do not care about the lounge. I am sick of it dominating discussion like this. Get over it!


----------



## mal3volent

I was going to try to post this several minutes ago but got one of the error messages that's been going around. The threads really picked up so it might seem out of sequence now, but w/e. Also my browser is acting up so I can't quote properly right now.

---

(In response to zephyr ignoring my last post and telling me I don't understand)

Kind of funny that you said I was being condescending at first and now you are telling me I just don't know what I'm talking about. I don't claim to know the history of the Lounge or what went on behind the scenes during the time period you keep talking about. All I was doing was quoting the section of the guidelines that pertain to the topic of what kind of language is and is not permitted.

It is important to remember that there is more to Bluelight than the Lounge. It does not define every users identity. I've pretty much avoided it like the plague ever since I've been here. But that's okay. That's the way it should be. People gravitate to different areas for different reasons. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a fundamental set of guidelines for everyone as a whole.

What I keep coming back to is the whole idea of harm _reduction. _Indiscriminately throwing around words that have been used to _inflict_ harm for decades does not live up to that idea. Especially when we are talking about a community of drug users who are _already marginalized_ by society.


----------



## tathra

swilow said:


> But the majority of us, as ever, do not care about the lounge. I am sick of it dominating discussion like this. Get over it!



srsly.  there are some alleged issues with moderators being biased and it affecting their decisions, mods overstepping their bounds, and/or otherwise abusing their authority as moderators; hearing out those and similar concerns and addressing them if they're valid is what this thread is supposed to be about.  concerns can be sent anonymously, as ali posted before, or people can post them in the anon forum and I'll merge them over, if anyone wants to inform of such issues anonymously.  if you choose to go anon make sure you log out first.


----------



## Droppersneck

phr said:


> I'll end this by giving two examples of the type of person you are, alasdairm, and why I don't believe your moral high ground stance. People that have dealt with you can attest to this, though I'm sure they would never have the balls to do it publicly, except maybe a couple of us. Sup lysis.
> 
> 
> Droppers caught an infraction that lead to a ban. I don't remember the particulars, but it was a mistake. Anyone that looked at the post that got him the ban realized it was done in error. I point this out in the staff forum, either in the ban thread or the infraction thread. You look at it and agree that it's a mistake and should be overturned.
> 
> I wait, and I say, OK, do the right thing and overturn it. You refuse. You say "if droppers wants his ban overturned he has to speak up through the proper channels and we'll do it." THAT represents whom you are. You know what the right thing is, but you refuse to do it because it's for someone you don't like. It's not about doing the right thing, it's about what YOU personally want done. (Same with closing TL and kicking us out. Wasn't about doing the right thing, just about pushing your personal vendetta or agenda.
> 
> And another example.
> 
> We were playing IWS and TNW won the round so he made questions and scored them. He took your answer to a question in different way and he gave you very low to no points for it. It was probably some sort of technicality he tends to get caught up in. You should have gotten the points, or it could have gone either way, and he didn't give you the points. You were fuming over it.
> 
> I won the round so I was making questions and scoring them. You PM me and tell me to give TNW a score of 0, regardless of what it should be. You go on about how the scorer can score anyway they want, regardless of whether it's correct or not, and that he should get a 0. I say NO, I'm not doing that. It's not fair and it doesn't matter if it's unfair to a person I don't like (i didn't like TNW one bit then). You didn't like that answer from me and you ended it with "fine i'll win and get him back myself."
> 
> The fact that you would ACTUALLY do something like that, or rather seek out to do something like that, just over some petty shit like an IWS score says all one needs to know about your true motivations.
> 
> -------------------
> 
> My point with all of this is you have no moral high ground. I don't believe you when you say you wanted to "clean up TL" and I most certainly don't believe you when you say, with no proof, that TL effects the image of some drug injecting addicts. You think your behavior that I highlighted above is OK behavior, but when drippersneck makes a stupid fried chicken and grape soda joke, oh that can't stand. Please. Let people be who they want and when it actually harms the site then do something. And do something with everyone's input and opinion.



I?m still not sure what I got that permanent infraction for tbh. Jah posted it in this very forum and nobody could point it out the reason. I?m guessung the one mod who?s super ban happy just had the itch. Luckily she?s chilled out a bit. 

Honestly whom really cares. The politics of the board and the agenda being pushed is their right as a private entity, though I do see how the sanctimonious act of being completely unbiased is a bit rich. Phro you and BP just need to move on, come on guys there are greener pastures. The lounge was cool, but all things change over time and we have all grown older. Alasdair isn?t the complete villain he?s being made out to be, I just wish he were more transparent about the politics and agenda of the board. And it?s not just nigger and faggot that got banned, it was thousands of words and ideas. Essentially all of the ironic humor that drew people to it got slowly beaten out of it. Come on guys let bygones be bygones, shake hands and get past this!

<edit> can I have the nonsense perm infraction overturned? However If it will result in ill will from cep staff then I shall rescind the ask


----------



## zephyr

tathra said:


> you'll find that everything you're bringing up and asking about was already addressed the last time it was discussed, ali acknowledging the lounge transition could have been handled better, addressing the lounge archive integration you keep bringing up, and everything else.  if showing you where everything you're talking about has already been addressed is a "brush off" then yeah, I'm brushing you off.  you act like this stuff hasnt been talked about before but it has, you're bringing up the exact same things that were answered months ago.  go read the answers instead of acting like they don't exist, then ask new stuff instead of stuff that's already been addressed. if you're not satisfied with the answers and explanations thats fine.




Are you in charge of this thread?  If you aren't already interested in my comments, scroll on.


It was you who started that poll.  I had no idea why but thought for a minute any kind of unrest with you around the edges means a chance to get into admin.


Dude,  that's a theory only.  There's nothing wrong with ambition.  Considering what's already happened before you came back, what else could possibly go wrong?  


How about this.


Let's hear plans and ideas you staff have going.  There hasn't been much lately.  


Quite frankly given the epic sweep under the rug effort going on, the trivialisation of your fellow blue lights, yeah bp has every right to be concerned.  


Hanks for grouping a bunch of us as racist and homophobic.  Not true.


----------



## Jabberwocky

I love if we could discuss BPs concerns (or at least what I understand they were) related to interstaff conflict.


----------



## zephyr

Ill wait for Alasdairm to address my concern.

Swillow etc,  no ones asking you to read or respond.  So dont.  Go and do some modding while you wait to pounce on beepers, youre just so obviously up to shit its hilarious.   


Hopefully Ali will do so as Im more than happy to never let history be forgotten or denied, fourteen years of friends past and present far outweighs any trivial bullshit youre on about now.


----------



## tathra

zeph i have no idea what you're on about, but your issues with the lounge have already been addressed.  shall i quote them into here since you're unwilling to do all that hard work of clicking a link yourself?



toothpastedog said:


> I love if we could discuss BPs concerns (or at least what I understand they were) related to interstaff conflict.



ditto. all we've heard is that allegedly there's a problem, but nobody has been able to say anything more than that.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Tath, I appreciate this has become frustrating, but please remain mindful of the OP and sarcasm and all that. Not a big deal, I just think you’re better than cheap shots given how seriously zep is taking TL stuff. 

Well, in BPs defense, even though I got frustrated and ended up pissed off enough to get sucked into the stuff going on with staff, he does have a genuine concern. Especially if I’m assume his intentions are in the right place with it. 

I do not agree with how he handled things, but I do agree that we need to address his concerns. Some of them I see as problems he caused for himself, but others I see a legitimate issues of concern. By the same token, other have had concerns with BP, and my bias is that I tend to agree with concerns about BP more than his own concerns, of those he had expressed only some I see as substantiating. 

But I really don’t like talking about BP or his concerns like this. They are his concerns after all, so who am I to speak for him... anyways I still like to get at the concerns staff have brought up, as opposed to non-staff. 

For instance, from BP’s perspective, how folks (including me) kinda ganged up on him. And from the concerns of other people, how BPs behavior has come off largely as divisive (baiting or provoking or triggering, however one wants to think of it), regardless of his intentions.


----------



## swilow

zephyr said:


> Quite frankly given the epic sweep under the rug effort going on, the trivialisation of your fellow blue lights, yeah bp has every right to be concerned.



What's been swept under the rug? If you are referring to your own issue, I'm gonna be blunt and say that no one knows what it is, you just wait for any bluelight critical thread to raise your own personal grievance regardless of the actual topic. 

If you think the lounge transition was done poorly. I consider it a success and you were one of the reasons why,  so thanks zephyr.  

I bet you'll still keep personally attacking staff though.  



> Hanks for grouping a bunch of us as racist and homophobic.  Not true.



No one has done this, least of all to you. We all know what a hard time you've copped from this lot. That you are taking their "side" is mind boggling to me.


----------



## zephyr

Tathra,  help me spare the important time of mods such as swillow, toothpaste dog and many others by reiterating this:

I would like Alasdairm to reflect on his time on bluelight.  His friends. The fun and trials and trivilations through that time.  How many he has met.  How many have travelled the world to meet up and what this place means to him.

Then go back and go through exactly what led up to and followed what he describes as not a big deal.


The I want him to tell me what worth we have,  just to be swept up and chucked in the bin.  The same mods who are so peachy keen for more drama are still doing the same thing.





I have always held him in high regard and what happened just does not fit in with someone who is totally reasonable.  Theres nothing else to it,  thats all I would like so kindly just step away.  Youve changed your tune on practically all you said you stood for before you pointed out there was a cep spot and got in.


I believe you have a personal vendetta and just want to have some weird victory.  Because you have a checkered past and have said in the past the admin would never let you on staff again.


Given there  are others who apparently dealt drugs through bl back on staff regardless,   what do you even stand for anymore anyway if you dont have a moral compass?


This place has stomped out a lot of people just to get rid of a few.  I would hazard a guess that in the event of another "mistake" itll happen to you.


Urgh.


Good luck hassling beeps- bloke has got more balls than you all.  Hes one guy who has done his best to accommodate a bunch of people who couldnt care less


----------



## swilow

He has so many balls that he has refused to put himself on the line and see explain himself. Perhaps you mean he's given you the balls to start your typical ranting against the website you post on everyday.  

I asked him in my first reply. I asked courteously too and he has been unwilling to substantiate any of his grievances. Instead he has acted like he has been attacked. Asking someone to prove a claim is not an attack. Not substantiating an argument says you either can't in which case the debate should end, or won't in which case I have to return to my thesis that the aim of bp's complaints were to draw in the usual hordes (sadly you've become predictable) to join in the pecking party.  

If you say there is a problem but won't say what it is, I don't believe you want that problem solved.


----------



## tathra

swilow said:


> If you say there is a problem but won't say what it is, I don't believe you want that problem solved.



or that the alleged problem doesn't really exist, which is what appears to be the case to me since nobody is willing to give any details of any sort, not publicly, privately, or even anonymously.  all we seem to have is a concern troll giving the usual troublemakers an excuse to talk shit.

I'd like to be wrong, but i go with what the evidence says.


----------



## Jabberwocky

I hope this isn’t the beginning of the end for this thread  

I understand this is beyond frustrating for everyone involved, perhaps some more than others, so let’s please continue with constructive comments. 

I don’t know what I’m getting at... zep, for the sake of this thread, maybe pm Ali or whomever you specifically want to hear from? This thread isn’t just for your concerns with BL. And especially TL topic... the “good old days” are behind us and there is no going back. Only way for TL to thrive again is if it takes on a new role, reborn ethos. Pining for the glory past is pretty counterproductive imho


----------



## mal3volent

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that at this point everyone has had a chance to say exactly what they are pissed off about and why. This is what, the third thread in the last couple of weeks... at least? All I've heard is Ali-bashing, mod-bashing, lies, hyperbole, bullshit...etc.

If someone has a legitimate concern, all our inboxes are open. This thread is open. Our ears are and always have been open. The time and energy that's been devoted to this already should be more than enough proof of that.


----------



## swilow

tpd said:
			
		

> I hope this isn’t the beginning of the end for this thread



It never really started. How can it? What are we even discussing? The main protagonst refuses to actually participate. And yet, we are bending over backwards to give him the chance. The fact that we are imploring him to tell us how poorly we do our volunteer jobs kinda scuttles one point he made in that we don't accept dissent amongst staff. We do accept dissent, it is welcomed and we are begging for it here.


----------



## zephyr

I am not going to be bullied.


I will never be treated like shit like people I cared about for years ever ever again.

I regret ever coming back to bl

I regret thinking ppl here were worth more than they are

You are not worth anything.

You are rancid, rotten nasty people

Many of you hide your flaws in public

Ive seen what you are like and invite you to ban me


What you have done to this place, a refuge, is disgusting.

I am embarassed to have held you ali in high regard.

You repond to phr but not me?


Wrll hey youre a lot alike i guess


Go to hell you scum.


----------



## phr

Thanks for the replies.




tathra said:


> or that the alleged problem doesn't really exist, which is what appears to be the case to me since nobody is willing to give any details of any sort, not publicly, privately, or even anonymously.  all we seem to have is a concern troll giving the usual troublemakers an excuse to talk shit.
> 
> I'd like to be wrong, but i go with what the evidence says.



What do you mean, the problem exists and is evident. Just go to Social.

Everyone is mad here because their forum was killed, for what we're saying is personal reasons under the guise of "cleaning up." We're mad all of our friends were pushed out. We're mad the new forum, that's all nice and a safe space, is an utter failure that was predicted by the people arguing against it. And we're mad the people that did this don't care. 

People are blaming The Facebook, and Instagram, etc. That's as disingenuous as them shutting it down to "clean up a cess pool." The people that left were forum veterans that would have still been there. They've been through various other TL periods and yet remained...

It's pretty funny that you actually run a Social/TL competitor that's filled with trolling/shit talking, yet here you are acting like that stuff is the worst thing ever.


----------



## alasdairm

^ do you see me blaming facebook? that's half rhetorical but the answer is no.

i've said publicly and often that traffic is down and it's because of the changes we made but that doesn't stop you and your friends lying to people and telling them i say traffic is up. who's being disingenuous? this isn't a case of "_don't care_". it's a case of having a different opinion.

you've had your say and made your position clear, phr - i'm personally responsible for a slew of bl problems. the site owner has reached out and offered to hear your concerns so i suggest that you pick up that discussion. i note you're still not edited, unapproved or banned. 

i dropped b_p a pm and asked him to pick up his original discussion in here. let's try to focus on that.

alasdair


----------



## sekio




----------



## Blue_Phlame

I just got back from the doc, been nursing a feverish flu.

Thread has gotten off-track, but each person's concerns are in some way tied in with inter-member relations on this forum.
The discussion  in this thread has been responded to with a decent effort... I'm not mad, I'm just concerned at whether members of an org can self-regulate and keep themselves in check so incidents like the lounge fiasco won't happen again.  Blame whoever you want, but if you want to make something better, you've got to work on it yourself and not depend on others to make the change for you. Be considerate of others, and don't look at the world in black and white only. Unless you're a tool (or robot 010011000110111101001100), act humanely and like a real human being.


----------



## mal3volent

Blue_Phlame said:


> Be considerate of others, and don't look at the world in black and white only. Unless you're a tool (or robot 010011000110111101001100), act humanely and like a real human being.



Sage advice...



			
				Blue_Phlame said:
			
		

> _Let me try..._
> _mal3volent is a disturbed individual who likes to vilify other people and play the victim. He sucks up to other people and cries like a little child when things don't go his way. He projects his own inadequacies onto others and deliberately has an agenda to slander another person he has a personal beef with without substantiating any evidence. He knows he won't be criticized for his observation, so he has no qualms in exaggerating claims against another person._
> _CUT IT OUT mal3volent, you're trying to get a rise out of me. You have not helped in this conversation and are only here to cause drama._
> 
> _Likely, by bringing myself down to the same level of immaturity, and treating the other person the same way they treat me ... I will be punished and told "you should know better" or something along those lines... How is that not fair?_



How _is_ that terrible punishment going, anyway?


----------



## SheWasLvL18

I think the biggest problem is that BP, a moderator, is legitimizing a group of dissenters who don't seem to want the best for bluelight, in fact I don't really understand what they want and I've been checking into this and the last thread daily.  BP et al have managed to say nothing at great lengths.


----------



## Blue_Phlame

^ Wait, what?

What's wrong with being considerate of others, and not looking at the world in black and white? While being humane at the same time?


mal3volent said:


> How _is_ that terrible punishment going, anyway?


Snarky comment noted.


----------



## Captain.Heroin

We’re self-regulating just fine.


----------



## tathra

Blue_Phlame said:


> ^ Wait, what?
> 
> What's wrong with being considerate of others, and not looking at the world in black and white? While being humane at the same time?



what does this have to do with what the poster said?  you should try reading posts and replying to what they say rather than what you wish they said.  this seems to be a common problem for you.



Blue_Phlame said:


> Thread has gotten off-track, but each person's concerns are in some way tied in with inter-member relations on this forum.



i thought this was supposed to be about moderators abusing their authority?  whatever happened to that claim that still nobody has even attempted to substantiate?


----------



## Blue_Phlame

tathra said:


> what does this have to do with what the poster said?  you should try reading posts and replying to what they say rather than what you wish they said.  this seems to be a common problem for you



Man, this is almost exactly what I said to someone else before. We are on the same page them if we don't want others telling what others are saying on behalf of themselves.


> BP et al have managed to say nothing at great lengths


It appears to me that suggesting good direction and accepting OPs bulletpoints as a desirable behavioral  destination for all members doesn't count as anything...

Do hard accusations and constant pointing out of past problems really solve anything? I prefer to focus on the positive once the negatives have been acknowledged. 

The manner at which staff acted in the other thread are the most recent example I can think of as reason for discussion. The points Ali mentioned in OP address the behavioral issues, and this acknowledgement is a step in the right direction.


----------



## tathra

Blue_Phlame said:


> Do hard accusations and constant pointing out of past problems really solve anything?



you tell me, youre the one that started all this with accusations and alleging problems but then refusing to say anything that might show your allegations to be anything more than empty accusations, we're all still trying to find out if this whole thing is anymore than concern trolling.



Blue_Phlame said:


> The manner at which staff acted in the other thread are the most recent example I can think of as reason for discussion. The points Ali mentioned in OP address the behavioral issues, and this acknowledgement is a step in the right direction.



so the idea was to troll your fellow staff members so you could point fingers and blame people for the problem you created?


----------



## Droppersneck

Ok guys his has turned into a slap fight. Reign it in and make more constructive posts without all of the vitriol. I’ll admit I can see both sides here, BP you sort of lit a fire and walked away. But the main grievances in this thread came from another poster that has nothing to do with your original concerns.


----------



## Blue_Phlame

tathra said:


> you tell me,


 I have told you, i'm not reading any acknowledgement from what I already have said 


> youre the one that started all this with accusations and alleging problems but then refusing to say anything that might show your allegations to be anything more than empty accusations, we're all still trying to find out if this whole thing is anymore than concern trolling.


Well, if you want a hint at what i'm getting at, the last part of your sentence says that "we're all still trying to find out if this whole thing is anymore than concern trolling"
What reason did that become the consensus alternative to this thread among staff? This thread isn't just about me, as you can see droppers, phr, zephyr and other folks have commented on this thread. I can understand that someone might group me in with other people who were called trolls before, but why? Is it because I sympathize with them and share similar concerns? 
I'm trying to find some common ground here, so i'm not always fought against by others.



> so the idea was to troll your fellow staff members so you could point fingers and blame people for the problem you created?


I would like to know the origin of the other staff calling me a troll? It appears that someone said that about me, and easily-influenced folks adopted it as fact. This is a problem.


----------



## swilow

Blue phlame just enunciate and clarify why you bought this issue up. Stop pretending its about the lounge. I know you will get your cronies support if you stick the boots into the lounge but you are being disingenuous here. The issue came about because you dislike decisions in CEP.  

Again you obfuscate. Its incredibly transparent.


----------



## tathra

Blue_Phlame said:


> Well, if you want a hint at what i'm getting at



or you could just say it, instead of hoping that somebody else will provide some substance to your empty claims of alleged misconduct.  that there have been zero attempts by you or anyone else to back up any of these claims, not publicly, privately, or _even anonymously_ makes it pretty clear that there's nothing to them.


----------



## swilow

So, BP, I think you took issue to some matters in CEP and the way we were approaching certain users there. You're welcome to expand on that here.


----------



## Droppersneck

Ok this feels like teaming up on ole BP. There is definitely some issues with management, and I say this as a known critic. It’s become a circle jerk, where banning someone is like taking a ‘trophy’, like it’s someone who dared to question the ruling class.  The offender is villianized, and the inflactor is made to feel like social justice is being served. Most recent example was jah, though he definitely pushed back against it. Every action has a reaction though. My last infraction is pretty much the prefect example of it. You guys seem to have this buzzaro limp-wrist warrior culture of taking down anyone that shows dissent via implied consent. This thread is a refreshing change, though probably at the bequest of the owners. Not sure what should be done, Alasdair leads the site and it’s a thankless position, I like certain aspects of his leadership but overall pragamtism and a willingness to admit fault should be a promoted theme.


----------



## Blue_Phlame

swilow said:


> Blue phlame just enunciate and clarify why you bought this issue up. Stop pretending its about the lounge. I know you will get your cronies support if you stick the boots into the lounge but you are being disingenuous here. The issue came about because you dislike decisions in CEP.
> 
> Again you obfuscate. Its incredibly transparent.


If I obfuscate, then you can't intellect.
Here's an incredibly unobfuscated sentence, given to you. Quoted and everything so you can have an easy answer.


> That's the main theme for me creating this thread. Not to expose the organization as being corrupt, or the members who I believe are contributing to the risk of potential corruption, but to encourage self-checks in the administration to identify the patterns of behavior of its staff that lead to unfair and unjust actions


I'm actually asking the important questions here.


> Does anyone else think that occurrences of unfair decisions made at the expense of members who do not share the same ideological perspective have become increasingly more commonplace?


An honest question that was the starting concern for starting the discussion.



> The board's general disposition has shifted heavily to one side, and as a consequence, started ostracizing members who do not share the same ideals.


 this was my perspective of the situation, I did not want to use specific members or words in this post because that would make the problem more personal. My aim was to make a broader statement, and not focus on specific instances, but rather improve inter-member relations as a whole.



> Its clear to me that this forum no longer holds values that encourage impartial and non-partisan perspectives in its staff.


This is the nub of the problem, that if staff held impartial and non-partisan perspectives when making decisions (such as *removed links to staff conduct threads*, see edit)




tathra said:


> or you could just say it, instead of hoping that somebody else will provide some substance to your empty claims of alleged misconduct.  that there have been zero attempts by you or anyone else to back up any of these claims, not publicly, privately, or _even anonymously_ makes it pretty clear that there's nothing to them.



Boy, If I kept notes with time-stamps on examples from the last 2 years this would be easy to answer. My mod-fu isn't as strong, given the 1000s of reports we've had during this time, it'll be difficult to find particular instances that won't get me in trouble again for 'divulging staff info'

Perhaps a better solution would be to identify what would actually constitute a mod's abuse of power and overstepping of bounds. 

This isn't a thread for me to keep finding and posting problems exhaustively, but to have a discussion on the appropriate ways things can be handled.

*edit*


----------



## Blue_Phlame

^ do you want to find common ground, or not? <--- this was directed at tathra before he deleted his post


swilow said:


> Stop pretending its about the lounge.



avoid speculation
don't assume




> I know you will get your cronies support if you stick the boots into the lounge but you are being disingenuous here.



avoid insults
don't make assumptions about other people's motivations




> The issue came about because you dislike decisions in CEP.


I have to spell it out for you like i'm talking to a child.

Its not right to hear you assuming the intentions of other people so often. I would suggest that you don't keep insisting that you know what other people are thinking, it's more effective to propose solutions.



> Again you obfuscate. Its incredibly transparent.



criticize ideas and actions, not individuals


" I obfuscate. "
*ob-fus-cate*
_render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible._​It would seem that we do not understand each other. Where is this barrier in communication that's preventing you from understanding me?

"incredibly transparent."
*in-cred-i-bly*
_  to a great degree; extremely or unusually._​*trans-par-ent*
_easy to perceive or detect._​
I'm afraid I have to point out that your constant exaggerations are problematic, especially if they are directed at another member. 
If I obfuscate, and am incredibly transparent... you must mean that purposefully obfuscating is transparent, because obfuscation and transparency seem to be antonyms. What can we do to solve this predicament? Surely I can't do all the thinking here, apply yourself swillow! I know you can do it!


----------



## tathra

Blue_Phlame said:


> Perhaps a better solution would be to identify what would actually constitute a mod's abuse of power and overstepping of bounds.



since you claim its clear to you, why dont you enlighten us to the criteria you use that makes it so readily apparent?  again, stop expecting others to give substance to your claims, take some responsibility for yourself, your words, and your actions.



Blue_Phlame said:


> criticize ideas and actions, not individuals



it _is_ your actions being criticized, your obviously transparent refusal to meaningfully engage in the discussion you started.  there's that problem of yours again, where you keep refusing to respond to what was actually said, and instead respond to something different (also a criticism of your _actions_, if you cant tell)


----------



## Blue_Phlame

tathra said:


> since you claim its clear to you, why dont you enlighten us to the criteria you use that makes it so readily apparent?  again, stop expecting others to give substance to your claims, take some responsibility for yourself, your words, and your actions.
> I would like this question to be addressed by the whole community, should I begin? It's not clearly outlined in the moderator handbook, so discussing things that could be considered abuse of power, and overstepping of bounds can be agreed upon by staff.



I posted about 10 threads from the staff forums that give examples of what I consider questionable conduct. I'm waiting for a senior mod/admin to review it to see if its acceptable to post here.




> it _is_ your actions being criticized, your obviously transparent refusal to meaningfully engage in the discussion you started.  there's that problem of yours again, where you keep refusing to respond to what was actually said, and instead respond to something different (also a criticism of your _actions_, if you cant tell)


I am engaging, I don't have to write novels to get a discussion going. I'm also trying to gear the direction of this thread into a productive direction by suggesting improvements. Can you try and communicate with me without assuming my intentions? That would be another good start.


> refusing to respond


*re-sponse*
a verbal or written answer.​
I have written several responses. Perhaps they're not the answers you're looking for.


----------



## swilow

Blue_Phlame said:


> ^ do you want to find common ground, or not?
> 
> 
> avoid speculation
> don't assume
> 
> 
> 
> 
> avoid insults
> don't make assumptions about other people's motivations
> 
> 
> 
> I have to spell it out for you like i'm talking to a child.
> 
> Its not right to hear you assuming the intentions of other people so often. I would suggest that you don't keep insisting that you know what other people are thinking, it's more effective to propose solutions.
> 
> 
> 
> criticize ideas and actions, not individuals
> 
> 
> " I obfuscate. "
> *ob-fus-cate*
> _render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible._​It would seem that we do not understand each other. Where is this barrier in communication that's preventing you from understanding me?
> 
> "incredibly transparent."
> *in-cred-i-bly*
> _  to a great degree; extremely or unusually._​*trans-par-ent*
> _easy to perceive or detect._​
> I'm afraid I have to point out that your constant exaggerations are problematic, especially if they are directed at another member.
> If I obfuscate, and am incredibly transparent... you must mean that purposefully obfuscating is transparent, because obfuscation and transparency seem to be antonyms. What can we do to solve this predicament? Surely I can't do all the thinking here, apply yourself swillow! I know you can do it!



I don't care about finding common ground with you. I want to know specifically what your issue is.

Why did you raise this publicly?  What did you think would happen? How does this benefit bluelight?


----------



## Blue_Phlame

swilow said:


> I don't care about finding common ground with you.


Well then, it looks like you and I can end this conversation right now because there's no sense in discussing anything with anyone if you don't care about the other person or being willing to find common ground with that other person.


Tathra, can I classify this as an instance of misconduct of staff? Being unwilling to find common ground with a member who's trying to have a civil conversation and get to the root of a problem?


edit: I can see how these posts can seem 'obfuscating'... I make my point in a post, then piles of other posts come up after it - -burying it in piddly exchanges about the person's intent or hearsay... people forget what I said, and repeat the same line of questioning to tire me out. 

droppers is right. It's starting to look like teaming up against me, rather than the direction I want it to go, with civil and positive discussion that leads to solutions and inter-member relations improvement.


I'm gonna quote my own post from my response to a report of my own post
(it's not breaking any rules because I'm free to say the same thing in here that I said in there)


> I'm having an emerging feeling that by actually responding to everyone's posts, might annoy some people. It's a double-edged sword here, if I don't respond quickly enough (i'm actually up right now responding to people, risking my health instead of lying in bed because I called out from work today due to fever/flu) - I get criticized for running away. [proof because i have a feeling people won't believe that i'm actually sick]
> 
> If I do respond, i'm being disingenuous and annoying.
> 
> I'm sure that many staff would rather be doing other things, and if we used Ali's bullet-points as a guide in our responses, I believe it would make the discussion more civil and I wouldn't have to make so many of these posts refuting or disproving other people's claims against me. Ali said to propose solutions, I am trying to find some common ground with everyone here, but people keep fighting me.


----------



## tathra

since when is common ground required to have a civil discussion?  the 2 have nothing to do with each other.  how about you tell us about the roots of the problem instead of diverting off to unrelated tangents, like "finding common ground"?


----------



## Blue_Phlame

Ugh, i've got a headache and i'm gonna go lie down. 

It appears i'm the only one here trying to reconcile


----------



## Jabberwocky

I don’t know what you think you’ll accomplish with this BP, but your comments don’t make me want to think you are trying very hard. 

Other people, mal, tath and swillow, you are really not helping. I understand your pissed that BP is basically getting a free pass, I don’t like it either. But how you are posting about it is just about as unhelpful as BP. 

I don’t like it, but one option I see here is censuring anyone who keeps this up (I don’t really see that happening either, but who knows, it’s an option). 

Droppers I try to ignore, as their comments just generally make me gag in terms of disingenuity. Same can be said for phr.


----------



## sekio

I don't see any identification of concrete issues in this thread, there's instead a lot of hand waving...

Impartiality and complete fairness is not an inalienable right on the internet, if you read the BLUA it clearly states that staff reserve the right to act arbitrarily as they see fit.


----------



## Droppersneck

toothpastedog said:


> I don’t know what you think you’ll accomplish with this BP, but your comments don’t make me want to think you are trying very hard.
> 
> Other people, mal, tath and swillow, you are really not helping. I understand your pissed that BP is basically getting a free pass, I don’t like it either. But how you are posting about it is just about as unhelpful as BP.
> 
> I don’t like it, but one option I see here is censuring anyone who keeps this up (I don’t really see that happening either, but who knows, it’s an option).
> 
> Droppers I try to ignore, as their comments just generally make me gag in terms of disingenuity. Same can be said for phr.



Im very much being ingenuous, and I think that condescending attitude is part of the problem. Just bc I don’t take the time to be fake or sugar coat my points, doesn’t mean they aren’t valid/my genuine observations. 
I will say I feel like with Alasdair overturnimg my last perm infraction, things seem to be moving in the right direction. Bp id say that’s a good faith gesture at the very least.


----------



## swilow

toothpastedog said:


> Other people, mal, tath and swillow, you are really not helping. I understand your pissed that BP is basically getting a free pass, I don?t like it either. But how you are posting about it is just about as unhelpful as BP.
> .



Are you serious? 

BP _is_ getting a free pass if asking him to explain himself is "unhelpful". 

This is absurd.


----------



## phr

toothpastedog said:


> Droppers I try to ignore, as their comments just generally make me gag in terms of disingenuity. Same can be said for phr.


I don't think you know what disingenuous means.


----------



## alasdairm

phr, you place the blame for a host of issues on my shoulders and i think it's best i don't respond to your complaint.

the site owner reached out to you and offered to hear your concerns. can you perhaps sum up your subsequent discussion with s_g and your takeaways? are you satisfied with the response?

thanks.

alasdair


----------



## scubagirl200

tathra said:


> you tell me, youre the one that started all this with accusations and alleging problems but then refusing to say anything that might show your allegations to be anything more than empty accusations, we're all still trying to find out if this whole thing is anymore than concern trolling.



While J is banned and cannot comment directly I have taken some attention to this and the original thread.  It is quite apparent that BP raised some valid concerns, maybe not in the most eloquent fashion (however, it can often be difficult to properly state your thoughts when heavily bothered by something) and then proceeded to provide the supporting evidence as requested by others (only to have it removed further _obfuscating_ his main points - not a doing of his own I might add).

On this page alone he has furthered his points in a seemingly polite and helpful fashion - while being personally attacked by his colleagues.

I don't understand the bashing of common ground -- it is my belief that this is how we come to terms -- through mutual understanding AND common ground.  

How can we productively discuss things if we are not discussing the same things?  From common ground.  

From what I see this is not about a poster wanting to say banned words.  This is about mismanagement of this site's most valuable resource, being it's posters/community.  


I understand that there is a vision for what an entity wishes to be and in fulfilling that vision many like minded individuals come together in its formation - herein lies a problem.  

There is clearly a lopsidedness in ideologies of management here leaning one way - as evidenced in this very thread and the previous original.  This makes it easier for the managers of the majority mindset to speak and act in certain ways that may not be completely fair or appropriate even.  It can be difficult to see when you are part of the in-group, with like minded individuals, and can even be difficult to look at with true objectivity when a member outside of this group shines a light on these matters.  

Maybe BP didn't word it as neatly as you'd like, but pretending that there isn't an issue here and that BP is just "trolling" IS _disingenuous_ (not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. - for those of you who have been misusing the word).  Maybe you don't really know or see the issue, but my guess is that after it's been brought to your attention that you should at least see that there is an issue and are now just pretending it doesn't exist.

I have seen an administrator ask him why he hasn't stepped down yet!  This same administrator has chastised an ex-mod for voicing their concerns after stepping down and not sticking it out as mod to try and help!  Well, which is it?  Should he stick around and give his POV, time, and valuable knowledge?  OR should he just step down - furthering this lopsidedness?


----------



## Droppersneck

scubagirl200 said:


> While J is banned and cannot comment directly I have taken some attention to this and the original thread.  It is quite apparent that BP raised some valid concerns, maybe not in the most eloquent fashion (however, it can often be difficult to properly state your thoughts when heavily bothered by something) and then proceeded to provide the supporting evidence as requested by others (only to have it removed further _obfuscating_ his main points - not a doing of his own I might add).
> 
> On this page alone he has furthered his points in a seemingly polite and helpful fashion - while being personally attacked by his colleagues.
> 
> I don't understand the bashing of common ground -- it is my belief that this is how we come to terms -- through mutual understanding AND common ground.
> 
> How can we productively discuss things if we are not discussing the same things?  From common ground.
> 
> From what I see this is not about a poster wanting to say banned words.  This is about mismanagement of this site's most valuable resource, being it's posters/community.
> 
> 
> I understand that there is a vision for what an entity wishes to be and in fulfilling that vision many like minded individuals come together in its formation - herein lies a problem.
> 
> There is clearly a lopsidedness in ideologies of management here leaning one way - as evidenced in this very thread and the previous original.  This makes it easier for the managers of the majority mindset to speak and act in certain ways that may not be completely fair or appropriate even.  It can be difficult to see when you are part of the in-group, with like minded individuals, and can even be difficult to look at with true objectivity when a member outside of this group shines a light on these matters.
> 
> Maybe BP didn't word it as neatly as you'd like, but pretending that there isn't an issue here and that BP is just "trolling" IS _disingenuous_ (not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does. - for those of you who have been misusing the word).  Maybe you don't really know or see the issue, but my guess is that after it's been brought to your attention that you should at least see that there is an issue and are now just pretending it doesn't exist.
> 
> I have seen an administrator ask him why he hasn't stepped down yet!  This same administrator has chastised an ex-mod for voicing their concerns after stepping down and not sticking it out as mod to try and help!  Well, which is it?  Should he stick around and give his POV, time, and valuable knowledge?  OR should he just step down - furthering this lopsidedness?



Yep I think we were talking about this on fb the other day scuba. The political bend is noticeable, and it likely shapes things with certain perspectives being valued over others. SKL did a lot of harm to bl with his over haul of the BLUA, but he also did a service in bringing a different perspective/world view to the table. I get why an HR site might have a liberal bend, but maybe considerations of diversity of thought/opinion should be persude with future hires.


----------



## scubagirl200

I think that would be a good start, in regards to more diversity of thought/opinion.  It is even more frustrating then that when a certain subforum selects a free thinking individual for moderator - more than once - the powers that be quash the action.  It almost seems that they don't want outside thinkers among their ranks.  It's interesting that BP, potato, zephyr, and annie all thought someone would be good for the position yet others on staff couldn't see it.  


For the record:  I know BP has gotten some flak from others for having unsubstantiated claims and that nobody has come forward with any tangible evidence.  Well I am glad to throw my hat in the ring and would have you all know that Jah is also following this and is of the mind that BP has some valid concerns.  Heck, you could probably look at jah's thread in the staff section and find some of the evidence that you are looking for.


----------



## Droppersneck

scubagirl200 said:


> I think that would be a good start, in regards to more diversity of thought/opinion.  It is even more frustrating then that when a certain subforum selects a free thinking individual for moderator - more than once - the powers that be quash the action.  It almost seems that they don't want outside thinkers among their ranks.  It's interesting that BP, potato, zephyr, and annie all thought someone would be good for the position yet others on staff couldn't see it.
> 
> 
> For the record:  I know BP has gotten some flak from others for having unsubstantiated claims and that nobody has come forward with any tangible evidence.  Well I am glad to throw my hat in the ring and would have you all know that Jah is also following this and is of the mind that BP has some valid concerns.  Heck, you could probably look at jah's thread in the staff section and find some of the evidence that you are looking for.



I think there is value seen in individual free thinking mods, though it may not be seen that way by the admins of the site. BP is one of the last ones left, and that is likely why he felt the need to make this thread on the public forum. I think his judgment is valued which is why Alasdair has opened up this dialogue.


----------



## Jabberwocky

For those not aware of the history of individuals in this thread complaining about the user agreement and raising so called issues have become persistent trouble makers in the sense they have a history of disregarding and/or flagrantly violating it. 

The possibly exceptions are BP and zep, but I am not surprised to see droppers, phr or even scuba (scuba because it’s mighty hard to tell whether it’s her or jah using the account) keeping this alive and from addressing the actual issues this was created to explore.


----------



## swilow

If anyone has an issue with things in CEP please PM me or another forum mod if you want. I promise to listen.

We are not trying to impose arbitrary rules.  We're trying (sometime failing) to make bluelight better for all users. We are imperfect but need the communities assistance to help us improve. 

Its just very hard to approach a problem without really understanding it. For this we do need the community to help.  

I'm a pm away but this thread could suffice


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## Blue_Phlame

^ finally some progress

thank you swillow.


----------



## swilow

I've been saying it since page 2 of your first thread. 

I'm sick of having to be contrite but in the face of unrelenting negativity I am unwilling to add to it anymore. 

I actually want to improve things and have repeatedly said this but it's been made very difficult to achieve with wasting time fending off personal insults, and fundamentally not being helped to understand the problem. When are _you_ going to start helping by clarifying your arguments?  Thus far, the consensus is that the problems that concern you have been understated and this cannot help but lead to scepticism as to their actual substance or your motivations for bringing this issue up in the first place. 

I do not accept that I am hassling or attacking you when I request you substantiate your criticism so please help us progress this particular dilemma without retreating back to that stance. I'm feeling quite put upon too as are all the mods who have copped a bit of criticism as a result of this incident but I'm keen to ignore all of that rather than dwell and ruminate. I'd rather we move ahead rather than stagnate.  

Please help. If


----------



## Jabberwocky

Thanks swilow, good post!


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## phr

alasdairm said:


> phr, you place the blame for a host of issues on my shoulders and i think it's best i don't respond to your complaint.
> 
> the site owner reached out to you and offered to hear your concerns. can you perhaps sum up your subsequent discussion with s_g and your takeaways? are you satisfied with the response?
> 
> thanks.
> 
> alasdair


I'm satisfied, in the sense that I have no expectations, with that response. 

I am however truly satisfied with my ability to post what I experienced without it being removed, edited, or censored. Sadly, I'm at a point where that is seen as a win, instead of what it should be: the norm.


----------



## phr

toothpastedog said:


> For those not aware of the history of individuals in this thread complaining about the user agreement and raising so called issues have become persistent trouble makers in the sense they have a history of disregarding and/or flagrantly violating it.
> 
> The possibly exceptions are BP and zep, but I am not surprised to see droppers, phr or even scuba (scuba because it’s mighty hard to tell whether it’s her or jah using the account) keeping this alive and from addressing the actual issues this was created to explore.


Oh shut up. The Lounge, in its entirety which included participation by all levels of staff including owner and current/past admins, can be seen as a violation of the BLUA. When you have something so far reaching that it covers everything that may be offensive, well, it covers everything. To act like someone calling someone else a modfag two years ago is somewhat more "harmful" then even at the time admins calling people faggots 5 years ago, in TL's completely searchable archive, is disingenuous on your part.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Looking at your profile phr, the only posts of yours I see removed have been posts that... wait for it... break the rules. 

You seem to have an expectation we will let you do whatever you please on BL. As a former staff member you?d best remember that isn?t how it works. Even in the old TL you had rules, now we are just enforced the rules uniformly across all forums.

You still want to talk about TL? You realize it?s moot? I am happy to see the BLUA more uniformly enforces across the site, you aren?t. Ostensibly this is because you?re no longer allowed to use the forum to ?playfully? called people faggots, niggers or whatever bigotry is popular that day. 

I would argue it was always problematic for the BLUA not being enforced in the TL. You were part of a very small group of users who seemed to thrive on it. I understand why we might differ on our feelings about the rules now being enforced there. Besides, you?re still allowed to haze newcomers in TL, you?re just forced to be a little more creative with how edgy you are doing it. 

No one was penalized for their behavior prior to the social transition because the rules were allowed to remain unenforced in the old TL. Folks like you ended up picking up infractions once we started enforcing the user agreement in TL and you picked up bans because you refused to play by the ?new? rules... which were actually always the rules even if they hadn?t been enforced much prior to he social transition. 

You don?t seem to want to accept that the owners and staff decided to implement the rules that always technically applied in TL. But it happened. Deal with it, or get infracted for breaking the very basic rules when you do, or move on. No one is making you remain a BL user. It sure doesn?t seem like you want to. 

I can?t help myself sometime taking your bait to discuss something that is no longer an issue, as in TL and having BLUA enforceable there or not simply is a nonissue. Why keep beating your head against the wall? Move on. I would do better to ignore your off topic posts here so as not to encourage discussion of an issue that is both not up for discussion (as in the BLUA will remain enforceable in TL whether you like it or not and regardless of the bile I spew about us offsite) and only at best tangentially related to the subject of this thread. 

This thread isn?t for you phr, or droppers, or jah, or spiteful old now disenfranchised TL users. That is old business and it is not going to get reversed, especially considering how you and the clique handled it (or wasn?t able to handle it). In a way, you voluntarily gave up your chance of this even being a possibility given how you and others handled the transition to enforcing the rules. 

This thread is first and formost about BPs concerns, which seems to be moving in the right direction as swilow has decided to step up. Thank you swilow and BP for beginning to move ahead addressing the actual issues at hand!


----------



## scubagirl200

toothpastedog said:


> Looking at your profile phr, the only posts of yours I see removed have been posts that... wait for it... break the rules.
> 
> You seem to have an expectation we will let you do whatever you please on BL. As a former staff member you?d best remember that isn?t how it works. Even in the old TL you had rules, now we are just enforced the rules uniformly across all forums.
> 
> You still want to talk about TL? You realize it?s moot? I am happy to see the BLUA more uniformly enforces across the site, you aren?t. Ostensibly this is because you?re no longer allowed to use the forum to ?playfully? called people faggots, niggers or whatever bigotry is popular that day.
> 
> I would argue it was always problematic for the BLUA not being enforced in the TL. You were part of a very small group of users who seemed to thrive on it. I understand why we might differ on our feelings about the rules now being enforced there. Besides, you?re still allowed to haze newcomers in TL, you?re just forced to be a little more creative with how edgy you are doing it.
> 
> No one was penalized for their behavior prior to the social transition because the rules were allowed to remain unenforced in the old TL. Folks like you ended up picking up infractions once we started enforcing the user agreement in TL and you picked up bans because you refused to play by the ?new? rules... which were actually always the rules even if they hadn?t been enforced much prior to he social transition.
> 
> You don?t seem to want to accept that the owners and staff decided to implement the rules that always technically applied in TL. But it happened. Deal with it, or get infracted for breaking the very basic rules when you do, or move on. No one is making you remain a BL user. It sure doesn?t seem like you want to.
> 
> I can?t help myself sometime taking your bait to discuss something that is no longer an issue, as in TL and having BLUA enforceable there or not simply is a nonissue. Why keep beating your head against the wall? Move on. I would do better to ignore your off topic posts here so as not to encourage discussion of an issue that is both not up for discussion (as in the BLUA will remain enforceable in TL whether you like it or not and regardless of the bile I spew about us offsite) and only at best tangentially related to the subject of this thread.
> 
> This thread isn?t for you phr, or droppers, or jah, or spiteful old now disenfranchised TL users. That is old business and it is not going to get reversed, especially considering how you and the clique handled it (or wasn?t able to handle it). In a way, you voluntarily gave up your chance of this even being a possibility given how you and others handled the transition to enforcing the rules.
> 
> This thread is first and formost about BPs concerns, which seems to be moving in the right direction as swilow has decided to step up. Thank you swilow and BP for beginning to move ahead addressing the actual issues at hand!



You must have missed my post or chosen to willfully ignore it.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Jah, you’re upset you didn’t get picked to be a mod, I get it. But this isn’t the place, and you’re not doing yourself or scuba any favors getting her account banned too. If you want to become staff, learn not to break the rules.


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## Bagseed

Practically all the people whining here are bigoted jerks, including BP. BL is a great place and imo mods and admins are way too lax on racist scum and rightwing trolls because they want to be as inclusive as possible.

Furthermore BL isn't about you, you self absorbed whiny snowflakes.

I am aware that this is maybe not too constructive, but I cannot be the only regular user being sick and tired of that shit.


----------



## Jabberwocky

To be fair, while I appreciate your frankness and checking in here Bagseed, yes your intuition on this was also correct. Let?s please avoid too much confrontation in terms of insulting one another. Discuss what we find upsetting or unfair, sure, but preferably without attacking the individual. Criticism for what they do, not who they are. Thanks.


----------



## tathra

Bagseed said:


> Practically all the people whining here are bigoted jerks, including BP. BL is a great place and imo mods and admins are way too lax on racist scum and rightwing trolls because they want to be as inclusive as possible.
> 
> Furthermore BL isn't about you, you self absorbed whiny snowflakes.
> 
> I am aware that this is maybe not too constructive, but I cannot be the only regular user being sick and tired of that shit.



attack actions and ideas, not people. and when you posts that are against the guidelines please report them no matter who the poster is, even if its a mod or admin (especially if its a staff member); not knowing about them is a contributor to appearing to be too lax.


----------



## phr

toothpastedog said:


> Looking at your profile phr, the only posts of yours I see removed have been posts that... wait for it... break the rules.
> 
> You seem to have an expectation we will let you do whatever you please on BL. As a former staff member you?d best remember that isn?t how it works. Even in the old TL you had rules, now we are just enforced the rules uniformly across all forums.
> 
> You still want to talk about TL? You realize it?s moot? I am happy to see the BLUA more uniformly enforces across the site, you aren?t. Ostensibly this is because you?re no longer allowed to use the forum to ?playfully? called people faggots, niggers or whatever bigotry is popular that day.
> 
> I would argue it was always problematic for the BLUA not being enforced in the TL. You were part of a very small group of users who seemed to thrive on it. I understand why we might differ on our feelings about the rules now being enforced there. Besides, you?re still allowed to haze newcomers in TL, you?re just forced to be a little more creative with how edgy you are doing it.
> 
> No one was penalized for their behavior prior to the social transition because the rules were allowed to remain unenforced in the old TL. Folks like you ended up picking up infractions once we started enforcing the user agreement in TL and you picked up bans because you refused to play by the ?new? rules... which were actually always the rules even if they hadn?t been enforced much prior to he social transition.
> 
> You don?t seem to want to accept that the owners and staff decided to implement the rules that always technically applied in TL. But it happened. Deal with it, or get infracted for breaking the very basic rules when you do, or move on. No one is making you remain a BL user. It sure doesn?t seem like you want to.
> 
> I can?t help myself sometime taking your bait to discuss something that is no longer an issue, as in TL and having BLUA enforceable there or not simply is a nonissue. Why keep beating your head against the wall? Move on. I would do better to ignore your off topic posts here so as not to encourage discussion of an issue that is both not up for discussion (as in the BLUA will remain enforceable in TL whether you like it or not and regardless of the bile I spew about us offsite) and only at best tangentially related to the subject of this thread.
> 
> This thread isn?t for you phr, or droppers, or jah, or spiteful old now disenfranchised TL users. That is old business and it is not going to get reversed, especially considering how you and the clique handled it (or wasn?t able to handle it). In a way, you voluntarily gave up your chance of this even being a possibility given how you and others handled the transition to enforcing the rules.
> 
> This thread is first and formost about BPs concerns, which seems to be moving in the right direction as swilow has decided to step up. Thank you swilow and BP for beginning to move ahead addressing the actual issues at hand!


Please. Point me to posts where I called people niggers and faggots. Then point me to all of the infractions that I issued and the bans of my TL friends that I've handed out. You really are clueless.

Then, look at my infractions, the context, how egregious my behavior was, compare it to the behavior of other people that did not get infracted, and finally look at the two people that gave me the infractions. Then re-read the lines about "not issuing infractions to someone where it can be seen as personal." Then re-read the part about "senior staff deferring to forum mods" then look and see if there was any discussion about those infractions and deferring to the forum mods. My guess is there wasn't.

The one time there was, the last ban I received, I was talked to by BP. He said if I continue that behavior, again one sided as that behavior was being done to me as well, then I will be banned. I responded with I'll stop the behavior. Lo and behold a week or two later zephyr goes nuts, reports a ton of those posts, and the admin goes over what BP told me to ban me. All after I agreed to stop and heeded the warning my the mod. Again, for behavior that was the norm and the mods didn't say much about, other than warning me to stop. Again, all given to me by one of two people whom it's been nothing but personal between us. I reached out to discuss the ban and I was told "i will not discuss it with you because you don't show respect and discretion." Again, coming from someone who said "i don't care what you do or say off site."

You don't find it ironic that in one post in this thread I've been told, by the ruler of this site, the I'm "lucky not to be permabanned" and then in a post after that "that we don't care what you say off site and don't enforce that."

Man, you're something else.

Not once have I called people those words nor have I campaigned for those words to be used.

I've stated that TL was closed for personal reasons, powers were abused in closing it and running its posters (including myself) off site and that is what this thread is about.


----------



## scubagirl200

toothpastedog said:


> Jah, you?re upset you didn?t get picked to be a mod, I get it. But this isn?t the place, and you?re not doing yourself or scuba any favors getting her account banned too. If you want to become staff, learn not to break the rules.



Why don't you look at my post objectively and try again.

In response to your post though, he was picked.  It wouldn't be surprising if you were one of the smooth brains that didn't want him around.  

But jah being chosen by peers to volunteer his time to make this place better, only to be disallowed is only a small part of the larger issue that BP has raised.  

Why did you insist on making it known the history of the posters who don't see things your way?  

Would you take my posts more seriously if I wasn't a girl or dating Jah?


----------



## swilow

phr said:


> I've stated that TL was closed for personal reasons, powers were abused in closing it and running its posters (including myself) off site and that is what this thread is about.



No, its not. You're trying to take it over make the focus your issue.  I do not think the broader user base really cares or is concerned by your particular grievance. The lounge changed, and thats it. Your reaction is well known but not relevant.  

This thread was intended to discuss something quite different. It was to address a perception of ideological bias amongst staff. 

Please allow us to address this without adding in petty personal beefs.


----------



## alasdairm

scubagirl200 said:


> Why don't you look at my post objectively and try again.
> 
> In response to your post though, he was picked.  It wouldn't be surprising if you were one of the smooth brains that didn't want him around.
> 
> But jah being chosen by peers to volunteer his time to make this place better, only to be disallowed...


jah's behavior after he was not given a staff position just confirms - to any who had doubts - that he was absolutely not suitable for the position.

alasdair


----------



## Bagseed

thanks for your replies, tpd and tathra. as I said, my post wasn't very constructive, but I guess I am just frustated about all this inflammatory content by what is effectively a small minority of the BL community. I mean I tried to understand what BP was getting at in this thread and the previous, but to me nothing of it is ever being substantiated or makes sense. so it is pretty hard to talk on an even playing field with people who are seemingly not interested in a constructive discussion.

just my two cents from a non-staff member perspective.


----------



## swilow

^And a very valuable perspective. so far it's been one sided. 

Hopefully the infamous protagonist recovers from his illness and checks back in soon.


----------



## Droppersneck

toothpastedog said:


> Looking at your profile phr, the only posts of yours I see removed have been posts that... wait for it... break the rules.
> 
> You seem to have an expectation we will let you do whatever you please on BL. As a former staff member you?d best remember that isn?t how it works. Even in the old TL you had rules, now we are just enforced the rules uniformly across all forums.
> 
> You still want to talk about TL? You realize it?s moot? I am happy to see the BLUA more uniformly enforces across the site, you aren?t. Ostensibly this is because you?re no longer allowed to use the forum to ?playfully? called people faggots, niggers or whatever bigotry is popular that day.
> 
> I would argue it was always problematic for the BLUA not being enforced in the TL. You were part of a very small group of users who seemed to thrive on it. I understand why we might differ on our feelings about the rules now being enforced there. Besides, you?re still allowed to haze newcomers in TL, you?re just forced to be a little more creative with how edgy you are doing it.
> 
> No one was penalized for their behavior prior to the social transition because the rules were allowed to remain unenforced in the old TL. Folks like you ended up picking up infractions once we started enforcing the user agreement in TL and you picked up bans because you refused to play by the ?new? rules... which were actually always the rules even if they hadn?t been enforced much prior to he social transition.
> 
> You don?t seem to want to accept that the owners and staff decided to implement the rules that always technically applied in TL. But it happened. Deal with it, or get infracted for breaking the very basic rules when you do, or move on. No one is making you remain a BL user. It sure doesn?t seem like you want to.
> 
> I can?t help myself sometime taking your bait to discuss something that is no longer an issue, as in TL and having BLUA enforceable there or not simply is a nonissue. Why keep beating your head against the wall? Move on. I would do better to ignore your off topic posts here so as not to encourage discussion of an issue that is both not up for discussion (as in the BLUA will remain enforceable in TL whether you like it or not and regardless of the bile I spew about us offsite) and only at best tangentially related to the subject of this thread.
> 
> *This thread isn?t for you phr, or droppers, or jah, or spiteful old now disenfranchised TL users. That is old business and it is not going to get reversed, especially considering how you and the clique handled it (*or wasn?t able to handle it). In a way, you voluntarily gave up your chance of this even being a possibility given how you and others handled the transition to enforcing the rules.
> 
> This thread is first and formost about BPs concerns, which seems to be moving in the right direction as swilow has decided to step up. Thank you swilow and BP for beginning to move ahead addressing the actual issues at hand!


Well Tbf I did get a permanent infraction overturned as a direct result of this thread, full disclosure.  



Bagseed said:


> Practically all the people whining here are bigoted jerks, including BP. BL is a great place and imo mods and admins are way too lax on racist scum and rightwing trolls because they want to be as inclusive as possible.
> 
> Furthermore BL isn't about you, you self absorbed whiny snowflakes.
> 
> I am aware that this is maybe not too constructive, but I cannot be the only regular user being sick and tired of that shit.



Now this is what I call “constructive”, and actually showing of a double standard. If I came in here calling all of y’all a bunch of lifeless mayos that don’t understand the ironic or humor, it would not be met with such understanding. Perhaps this thread has run its course if this is the type of stuff we are going to be getting.


----------



## Blue_Phlame

Droppersneck said:


> Now this is what I call “constructive”, and actually showing of a double standard. If I came in here calling all of y’all a bunch of lifeless mayos that don’t understand the ironic or humor, it would not be met with such understanding. Perhaps this thread has run its course if this is the type of stuff we are going to be getting.


I feel the same, as if the thread has run its course. I've answered my reasons for posting this thread, but it's been fruitless. At least some of the things that were brought up have been responded to and acknowledged, so it's not a complete failed attempt at improving things on BL.
Maybe this topic can be returned to at a later time, but I'm not gonna be holding my breath until then.


----------



## scubagirl200

alasdairm said:


> jah's behavior after he was not given a staff position just confirms - to any who had doubts - that he was absolutely not suitable for the position.
> 
> alasdair



This may be so, but it was only used as a symptom of the larger issue raised by BP.   I'm sure he isn't the only one chosen by his respective peers and moderators in certain sub forums that showed a different perspective from the herd, only to be disallowed by senior decision makers.

I agree and made fun of him for even wanting to be a moderator here.

From my perspective one of the main issues is how seriously you all take this stuff.  This is another symptom of having all like minded individuals running the place.

Since it doesn't seem that TPD or anyone else from that side of the argument wants to actually address the issues, instead focusing on attacking posters and their previous actions instead of their actual positions raised I am leaving the discussion. 


Good day and good luck.


----------



## scubagirl200

toothpastedog said:


> For those not aware of the history of individuals in this thread complaining about the user agreement and raising so called issues have become persistent trouble makers in the sense they have a history of disregarding and/or flagrantly violating it.
> 
> The possibly exceptions are BP and zep, but I am not surprised to see droppers, phr or even scuba (scuba because it’s mighty hard to tell whether it’s her or jah using the account) keeping this alive and from addressing the actual issues this was created to explore.



Maybe we should have some arbitrary background info on yourself?


----------



## Droppersneck

Honestly scubagirl, I think the goosestepping among the ranks of BL really makes any sort of dissenting opinion fall on deaf ears. I get why youre white knighting for jah, but I don’t think there is any use crying over spilled milk. There is only one way real change can occur. 
Has Bluelight ever approached things democratically? Could we have a primary and election for a potential admin? Alasdair incumbency would definitely have an edge, but say a TPD or a Tathra could get their ideas out there. Just thinking out loud here, and trying to turn this thread into something constructive. Thoughts?


----------



## alasdairm

phr said:


> I'm satisfied, in the sense that I have no expectations, with that response.


it's curious that you would complain so vehemently that it's not possible to be heard or change anything here and yet, when the site owner reaches out to you and offers to listen to your complaint, you choose to not engage. curious indeed. i'm trying to not draw the obvious conclusion.

well, i'd like to thank those of you who chose to respond with constructive discussion. it's unfortunate that some people couldn't embrace the spirit of this second attempt but there are lessons there too.

i agree that this thread appears to have run its course so i'm going to close it for now and try to focus on taking away something positive.

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

scubagirl200 said:


> I'm sure he isn't the only one chosen by his respective peers and moderators in certain sub forums that showed a different perspective from the herd, only to be disallowed by senior decision makers.


he's not. this is how oversight works and the senior staff have failed to confirm many forum staff choices for moderator. in this case, we demonstrably got it right.



scubagirl200 said:


> I am leaving the discussion


you managed to leave for a full 25 minutes jah scuba 

alasdair


----------

