# [MEGA] JWH-018 Thread



## Estimated Prophet

I wanted to get some of this but i wasnt sure if it was safe to have it sent to my house. Is it legal in america and safe to have sent to my house?


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## ActiveA

As far as I know its legal.


Just be sure you can handle "the fear" which seems to be prominent with JWH-018. I guess you get more bang for your buck though.


Good luck.


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## MattPsy

Did you even *attempt* to search? There is a thread in ADD about these compound's legal status to too long ago.


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## Hammilton

Yes, it's legal, but I'd be very careful.  There are serious concerns about its safety that are not at all purely academic.  I won't go into much detail because I'm really not the person to speak about metabolism and cancer risk.  I will say that there is little on this molecule or most of the other JWH's for your body to metabolize it with.  At least one very similar drug (023 or something, IIRC) was metabolized to epoxides- the last route your body wants to use, and the one that produces the worst metabolites.

It's basically a big aromatic hydrocarbon, just the one nitrogen and one oxygen.  Not much for your body to attack.

Probably the only thing worse would be the analogue created sans the nitrogen.


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## MattPsy

It was JWH-015, that was studied... the N-propyl derivative of JWH-018 (-018 is N-pentyl).
There is some discussion about the potential toxicity in the thread I mentioned.
Ah, fuck it, ok I will spoonfeed and provide a link...
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?p=6386850#post6386850


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## Estimated Prophet

so its safe to have sent to my house. but it could be really bad for you?


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## Pomzazed

It is metabolite via epoxidation which leads to reactive toxic product in the same way PAHs (try searching with this word) is toxic.

Well, the amount used (few milligrams) should be OK, but it shouldnt be used regulary.


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## Coolio

Research done on other closely related aminoalkylindole cannabinoids (JWH-133, WIN 55212-2, etc.) and other synthetic CB1/CB2 agonists (HU-210) have found nothing but anti-tumor, anti-inflammatory, and neuroprotective effects.


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## Coolio

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18306335



> The in vitro microsomal metabolism of JWH-015, a ligand that exhibits a high binding affinity at the peripheral cannabinoid receptor CB2, has been studied. A total of 22 metabolites were identified and structurally characterized. The metabolites are products of: 1) monohydroxylation on the naphthalene ring (m/z 344, M20 and M21), indole ring (m/z 344, M17 and M18), or the N-alkyl group (m/z 344, M14); 2) arene oxidation leading to dihydrodiols (m/z 362, M12 and M15); 3) dihydroxylation on the naphthalene ring (m/z 360, M7) or indole ring (m/z 360, M13), resulting from a combination of monohydroxylations on both the naphthalene and indole rings (m/z 360, M16), or a combination of monohydroxylations on the naphthalene ring and on the N-propyl group (m/z 360, M9); 4) trihydroxylation (m/z 378, M1, M3, M4, M6, and M10); 5) N-dealkylation (m/z 286, M19); 6) N-dealkylation and monohydroxylation on the naphthalene ring (m/z 302, M11); 7) N-dealkylation and dihydrodiol formation from arene oxidation (m/z 320, M2 and M5); 8) dehydrogenation after monohydroxylation on the N-alkyl group (m/z 326, M22); 9) dehydrogenation and monohydroxylation on the indole ring (m/z 342, M8).




I see nothing about epoxidation here. Am I blind?


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## MattPsy

That's because they list the end products, not the intermediates. Read the full paper to be enlightened  .


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## vecktor

Coolio said:


> Research done on other closely related aminoalkylindole cannabinoids (JWH-133, WIN 55212-2, etc.) and other synthetic CB1/CB2 agonists (HU-210) have found nothing but anti-tumor, anti-inflammatory, and neuroprotective effects.



jwh 133 is a  completely unrelated benzopyran


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## MurphyClox

..exactly!

It's the *naphthoyl-moiety* that makes up the cancerogenic potential. At least as far as it was published yet. WIN 55212-2 has such a residue...

Before the discussion now starts to what extend this one single study, performed with rats, is applicable to humans, I have to emphasize that large, aromatic residues without any substituents (very much like naphthyl!) are _*in general*_ not really desirable.

Look at Wiki for the metabolisation of benzene (and why it is cancerogenic). The same principle is shared by naphthyl... So, even without further toxicological studies for those cannabinoids, I would act with maximum care!

_Murphy_


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## planckunit

One would think that a substituted naphthoyl substituent would be less dangerous. e.g. JWH-081


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## Hammilton

Exactly, though maybe another methoxy for good measure


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## hamhurricane

this is all very frightening, especially with the the predominant explanation for Spice's effects being that it contains a JWH series cannabinoid, how many people smoke spice and spice alikes? thousands, tens of thousands? and all in time for the JWH series to receive a wider release as RCs in their own right, since these chems are highly euphoric and economical i hope some understanding of the toxicity is reached quickly.

in the _worst_ case scenario where JWH-73/18/200 are metabolized to epoxides, what could the physical consequences be, would these metabolites damage lung cells or neurons and to what extent given a common recreational dose?


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## Hammilton

Cancer would be the problem.  They wouldn't damage the lungs or the brain (at least not preferentially) but cancer is a real risk.


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## Coolio

What kind of cancer? Leukemia or lung cancer or what?


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## Hammilton

Hmm...  Well, actually, looking at the location of tumors created by other epoxide metabolites of multicyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, the lungs do seem to be effected preferentially.


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## Riemann Zeta

^^ Indeed.  That's the biggest reason why smoking causes lung cancer--tars and resins in smoke are chock-full of naked aromatic hydrocarbons.  

Mmm, aromatic hydrocarbons...welcome to flavor country.


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## Coolio

That IS what provides a lot of the flavor isn't it...


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## Hammilton

Riemann Zeta said:


> ^^ Indeed.  That's the biggest reason why smoking causes lung cancer--tars and resins in smoke are chock-full of naked aromatic hydrocarbons.
> 
> Mmm, aromatic hydrocarbons...welcome to flavor country.



Right, but that's smoking- no wonder why that would damage the lungs preferentially.  This is via other administration methods.


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## hamhurricane

so Hammilton and F&B and others who have a lot of posts about smoking JWHs and Spice, is this it? are you done with them? its a terrible shame because JWH-073 recently produced one of the best cannabinoid experiences of my life, but if the risk is real i will not hesitate to place it next to my MMQ and DOB in the isle of lost RCs.


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## Hammilton

Um...  Probably not, but it's definitely something that I will heavily restrict.


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## MattPsy

I'm not terribly concerned (as evident by my also not being concerned about smoking tobacco every so often) but at the same time I am looking forward to the development of AAIs without the naphthalene ring system (of which there are many, and of similar efficacy).


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## Coolio

On the subject of the relative risks of lung cancer from smoking drugs, I hereby recommend everyone who is a tobacco smoker switch to organic tobacco. Even the US Surgeon General C. Everett Koop admitted over 90% of lung cancers in smokers were due to the radioactive decay of lead and polonium isotopes introduced into tobacco trichromes by phosphate fertilizers derived from apatite ore, and not because of the intrinsic dangers of tobacco smoke.


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## Hammilton

A nice theory, but I can't find any research showing it to be true.


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## LuxEtVeritas

note as well concerning tobacco also I bet far safer and FAR cheaper if you do need to indulge is to switch to Indian Res cigs as BIG TOBACCO only cares for their bottom line and not at all for your health and who knows what they do to tweak those things ....so a thought...best yet, give that sh%t up, disgusting and weak...get a real herb that works and is safe if you have anxiety as that is what most use cigs for, mild anxiety/relaxant...other than that you are a slave to the active and habitual nature...sorry for the rant and thank god my wife is finally quitting after X-Mas


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## Jabberwocky

do ya'll get lots of phlegm/mucus when you smoke the JWH's?

I notice if I smoke 50-100mg of JWH-073 in an evening, then the following day I hack up a lot of gross phlegm and shit in the morning. One hack though and its clear (mostly). Then I blow my nose and get a lot of gunky snot out. Then I'm clear.

Is this the worry? This mucus buildup crap?

I'll add that if you're looking to buy JWH-018, I'd recommend you stay well and clear away from that one...if you're like me, and cannabis affects you pretty heavily mentally, then you'll probably have trouble with the 018. I had some pretty dark/forceful thoughts on that one (a few sessions in a row, so it wasn't a one off thing). It really strikes the fear in me. I won't touch it again, its not enjoyable like the -073 is.


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## phatass

The dosage range for JWH-18 is 1 to 10mg am i right???


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## Jabberwocky

1-3mg unless you have a huge tolerance

10mg would be a massive overdose for most people and would probably require laying down to ride it out (thats about all you could do).

I eyeball the stuff and got a dose of about 5mg once that was uncomfortably intense.


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## MurphyClox

Apart from the inherent long-term toxicity of the JWHs I miss a bit the scepticism about the _purity_ of your samples. Everybody who has ever seen some AAI in 'real life' can give a vote about colour, texture and consistency of the product. Let's see if we all agree...

The point is that even if somebody could guarantee you that your synthetic cannabinoid of choice is safe with respect to cancer (...which is practically impossible), you still wouldn't know a fuck about the purity of the stuff you're smoking. Who knows what kind of impurities are contained and what they might do?! Rhetorical question...

- _Murphy_


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## yaesutom

> I notice if I smoke 50-100mg of JWH-073 in an evening, then the following day I hack up a lot of gross phlegm and shit in the morning. One hack though and its clear (mostly). Then I blow my nose and get a lot of gunky snot out. Then I'm clear.
> 
> Is this the worry? This mucus buildup crap?
> 
> I'll add that if you're looking to buy JWH-018, I'd recommend you stay well and clear away from that one...if you're like me, and cannabis affects you pretty heavily mentally, then you'll probably have trouble with the 018. I had some pretty dark/forceful thoughts on that one (a few sessions in a row, so it wasn't a one off thing). It really strikes the fear in me. I won't touch it again, its not enjoyable like the -073 is.



Wow so 018 must be quite different then if you can smoke 50-100mg of 073 in an evening?  Have you ever gotten freaked/scared from 073? (like .. after smoking enough to get really fucking stoned)

JWH-073 was good shit lol.. I'm like you where I mentally "trip" off pot so i'll avoid 018.. I didn't get any fear from 073 although when i got REALLY stoned I got "pot visuals" but I felt fine.

-- oh yeah, after smoking a lot of 073 I did notice that I coughed up a tiny bit of something the next day like you mentioned.


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## Coolio

Hammilton said:


> A nice theory, but I can't find any research showing it to be true.



Hammilton, I'm going off things like:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/front/T....html?siteSect=105&sid=9645939&rss=true&ty=st

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abs...0&resourcetype=HWCIT&searchid=1&RESULTFORMAT=

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Radioactive_Lead_and_Polonium-201_in_tobacco_smoke

http://www.webspawner.com/users/radioactivethreat/index.html

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/80/5/1285

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g3j7722r079381g4/

http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_health2.shtml


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## Hammilton

Yeah, the issue of 210-Po is really concerning, but  the 90% number isn't based in reality.  There's no way to seperate the Po from all the other very proven damaging aromatic hydrocarbons.


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## MattPsy

Other than long term mutagenesis trials, where you control the doses of said hydrocarbons, and Po... but those have not been done AFAIK. (and even then they would not be all that useful, rat or mouse metabolism is quite different to human!)

Indeed, Murphy. And i'm... rather sceptical at best about the purity of some of the AAIs being sold by RC vendors..! Ok, make that extremely sceptical.


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## hamhurricane

^^^
are the AAIs more prone to impurities than anything else, or do you think since they are niche RCs (even more so than than PEAs and tryptamines) they will be less scrutinized, or is it because some people are smoking massive doses of JWH-073, whats your reasoning?


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## Hammilton

It's because of images like this

being claimed as JWH-018- which, while it likely contains *some*, probably makes street heroin look pure.

no sources. -nuke


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## MurphyClox

HOLY CRAP!!!!! Yes, indeed, it's due to pictures like that one...

I don't think that the AAIs are in particular affected by impurities. It's just that RC dealers do not really care in general about the  purity of their products.

Just for the ones who do not know it: JWH-018/015 is yellow when 98.5%+ pure, at 99.9% it is supposed to be colourless! Not brown...or red...or whatever...but _*colourless*_! At most light yellow, but nothing else!

Pfff....have a good smoke with that crap!

- _Murphy_


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## Coolio

How could it be colorless? Would it be translucent like a PEG or cellulose gel? Or would it look transparent like meth shards?


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## MurphyClox

When substances do not absorb light from the visible spectrum they appear colourless to us. But of course, depending on the crystal size, this 'colourless' can range from being translucent/transparent (big crystals) to being 'white' (small crystal size). Actually, there are not many compounds that _are_ really white. Ti2O is one well known example, but organic compounds just _appear_ white due to light scattering...


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## Coolio

That's what I was curious about. I don't think I've heard colorless used to describe solids many times before, but when I have it could have looked equally white or transparent to the naked eye.


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## LuxEtVeritas

indeed if you have seen any really pure of the JWH class they are white or just off white


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## dentuk

Any pictures floating about of some purer JWH material ?


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## MattPsy

Umm Hammilton. You may want to link that image from somewhere else maybe  .


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## Beenhead

Hammilton said:


> Hmm...  Well, actually, looking at the location of tumors created by other epoxide metabolites of multicyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, the lungs do seem to be effected preferentially.



Epoxidation is a huge reason why tobacco is so bad for you, and if you are unsure of what is causing the compound to be brown, I would ot touch it with a ten foot pole, since Napthalene is surely one of the unreacted. Though it is a white powder


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## MurphyClox

Nah... the synthesis does not employ naphthalene and it is unlikely to be a sideproduct resp. impurity. But I admit that the used precursor is very close to naphthalene with respect to the structure.


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## dentuk

Anyone heard the CONFIRMED news that jwh-018 is the main active ingredient in spice ?? heres some links:

http://translate.google.com/transla...hemischen-wirkstoff--9211606.html&sl=de&tl=en

and it's been added on wikipedia for jwh-018 :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JWH-018

'On December 15th it was announced by German pharmaceutical company THCPharm, that JWH-018 was found as one of the active principals in the drug Spice, which had become popular with teenagers during the months before, because of it's legal status in many parts of Europe and it's similarity in action to marijuana'

I almost knew for sure it was one of the synthetic cannabanoids , but now it's confirmed it'll set everyone straight :O

*wonders what will happen next*


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## ungelesene_bettlek

yes, this was on several german news sites today.


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## nuke

> On the subject of the relative risks of lung cancer from smoking drugs, I hereby recommend everyone who is a tobacco smoker switch to organic tobacco. Even the US Surgeon General C. Everett Koop admitted over 90% of lung cancers in smokers were due to the radioactive decay of lead and polonium isotopes introduced into tobacco trichromes by phosphate fertilizers derived from apatite ore, and not because of the intrinsic dangers of tobacco smoke.



That's kind of questionable; there are studies miners who were routinely exposed to radioactive isotopes aerially who did not go on to develop cancer in rates even close to those found in cigarette smokers.


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## MurphyClox

nuke said:


> That's kind of questionable; there are studies miners who were routinely exposed to radioactive isotopes aerially who did not go on to develop cancer in rates even close to those found in cigarette smokers.



I think, one must be honest and admit that it's most possibly the _combination_ of both effects: Cancerogenic components of the smoke AND enriched radioactive isotopes. Both influences are expected to show synergistic activity. But I admit that the former sound more like the _main_ reason to me.

- _Murphy_


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## nuke

Whoops missed the quote, that was kind of out of place...I kind of lean towards the lipophilic carcinogens being the cause.

Not only that but radon causes lung cancer too, in everyone.


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## Riemann Zeta

Well, now that it has been formally announced that JWH-018 is in the only real ingredient in the weed substitute 'Spice,' I bet it's only a few months/weeks until all of these synthetic cannabinoids (and Spice, obviously) are made Schedule I for good.  All the DEA needs is the word "teenagers" (see above post) to start a massive EMERGENCY scheduling (pathetic, but that's how the fuckers work).  

Anyone who likes synthetic cannabinoids better stock up, because as usual, they'll soon be gone forever!


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## Jabberwocky

marijuana is 100x better anyways

especially with the very worrying epoxy (read GLUE-like) buildups in throat, mouth, lungs after smoking near a tenth a gram in a night.


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## MattPsy

That is a reason why you shouldn't use that much of it in a night, rather than a reason why it's crap.
I daresay if you smoked many times the amount the cannabis required to get stoned you'd get glue-like buildups too!


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## MurphyClox

Gaian Planes said:


> marijuana is 100x better anyways
> 
> especially with the very worrying epoxy (read GLUE-like) buildups in throat, mouth, lungs after smoking near a tenth a gram in a night.



...that are 100 mg, i.e. more than 30 times of a single required dose!
Upon vaporizing the compound condenses _easily_: It condenses in the straw resp. the pipe (depending on what you are using), it even condensed once on my incisors (not funny  ). And OF COURSE it will condense on your respiratory ways as well. I guess you heard about the _possibility_ of causing cancer?

Please tell me why at all are you taking THAT much? 2-3 mg are normally enough for 1-2 hours. Even if I would redose after every hour, I wouldn't consume more than 30 mg...MAXIMUM!

Just a kind advise: You really shouldn't exaggerate!

Peace! _Murphy_


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## vecktor

MattPsy said:


> That is a reason why you shouldn't use that much of it in a night, rather than a reason why it's crap.
> I daresay if you smoked many times the amount the cannabis required to get stoned you'd get glue-like buildups too!



yep, this sounds just a little excessive  but doesn't it make him sound like a hard core hard head pysikonort wiv da drugz. and therefore Kewl


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## Jabberwocky

^ lol vecktor, trust me I'm not trying to impress some drug geeks in ADD with my hardk0r3 drug usage 

just trying to let you know that if you smoke a lot of it then you get a lot of junk building up in your throat. Not so if you smoke an 1/8th of headies with a friend in a night (bongrip after bongrip) you don't get the same.

Conclusion: Headies = good
synthies (or C-nards as we call them) = worrisome (but addictive!).

We are sorta like mice at a drug lever at this point lol...the stuff has a bite to it, what can I say?

I sorta wish I did not have 8 more grams laying around hahah :D

yo murphy I was talking about the 073 one.

I saw a friend rip 50mg of it at once and then go on to lay back and kinda spasm (pleasurably) to the beat of the music playing and once in awhile say "I'm good, I'm good dude, I'm gooooooood"

we are all everyday cannabis smokers, some of us smoke all day long (not me though I have work to occassionally do!)

I take it the people smoking less than 10mg are seldom smokers...10mg would not do it for most solid everyday smokers.

100mg in a night isn't that much tbh...if you start smoking it around 8pm then stop around 2am...its not that bad.

The only bad part is that the epoxy stuff builds up and eventually you have to cough to clear your throat for breathing.

Also, I'll add on a dose of GHB and JWH-073 I actually feared momentarily for my life my breathing got so low (regular dose of G too!). Although looking back I think it might have been psychological.

Also, I'll add: on a dose of about 20mg of DMT + 20mg of JWH-073 (both me and a friend took it) we tripped out SO HARD...like way harder than 20mg would normally do. There is some kind of intense synergy there with tryptamine psychedelics.

I'm pretty responsible with my drug use...so these combination synergies really surprised me (cause I do the same with all drugs with high grade cannabis and never get such sharp synergies).


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## Jabberwocky

ps All bets are off with the JWH-018 stuff. That stuff has a sharper narrow margin of error. I actually won't give that to anybody anymore since it caused two freakouts that required sending the people to bed (one of the people I sent to bed was myself haha!).

Laying them down in a bed with a glass of water nearby solved the situation (after an hour or so they were able to come back out and relax).

Really, you should be real careful with the JWH-018

but not so much with the 73 its much more 'toy-like'

it actually reminds me of MET in that respect, you can just toke and toke and toke and its like a silly fun game you are playing (how high can a person get) - with no negative consequences

A friend says the 73 is like blowing the back of your fucking brain out...he loves it :D

I know I will look back on this period of time (once synthetic cannabinoids are schedule I and restricted heavily internationally) fondly...I will never ever ever get this high again in my life I swear :D


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## Jabberwocky

MattPsy said:


> That is a reason why you shouldn't use that much of it in a night, rather than a reason why it's crap.
> I daresay if you smoked many times the amount the cannabis required to get stoned you'd get glue-like buildups too!


ps one more thing, sorry for spamming the thread, but if you smoke a bowl of headies the ash is real fine with good stuff you don't even have ash usually.

With the synthies when you lay them down on some headies and smoke it to your head, the residue is hard, stiff, like dried glue. Its really quite gross to think about that stuff in your lungs compared to marijuana.

marijuana = medicine

synthies = toys that are possibly real dangerous to your lungs


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## Riemann Zeta

^^ Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say weed = medicine.  Technically, smoking anything is still going to be carcinogenic, because of the pyrolysis of plant material into reactive/volatile organics.  But, I think it is clear smoking the reefer is likely far less harmful than smoking these naphthylindoles, considering mankind has been smoking reefer for thousands of years without particularly serious consequences.

But (before they all are made Schedule I), what is to prevent people from taking these synthetic cannabinoids sublingually--some of them are hella potent and most should be potent enough to dissolve in a mixture of EtOH, glycerol and water and take as a tincture.


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## Jabberwocky

well a medicine does not have to be completely benign to the body in terms of negative physical effects.

And you don't have to use marijuana by smoking it (you can vaporize, eat it, or plug it).

Marijuana is used as a medicine around the world, both traditionally and in modern medical settings...but we diverge from the topic hehe :D


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## MattPsy

"With the synthies when you lay them down on some headies"

So you're pyrolyzing them to all hell too. Who knows what the pyrolysis products are - i'll bet they aren't nice though, and maybe responsible for your "glue"! That's probably why you're using so much... most of it is probably getting burnt up!

-073 is noted as being about half the potency of the -018. I vapourise 2-3mg of the -018 and i'm high as hell for many hours. So, 4-6mg should be equivalent for the -073. Nowhere near 100, no?

FWIW I have not noticed any "glue"-like properties or significant residue when vapourising in glass. Your Mileage May Vary.


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## Hammilton

I haven't either, but I've always had very pure product.  Was your 018 brown perchance?

methinks people hear epoxides and think epoxy.


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## willkell420

Do you think there is still a danger of cancer if these substances are taken orally?


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## Hammilton

Yes, it's an issue of metabolism.


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## willkell420

So is there any in in this series that would be safe to experiment with?  Like the 081?


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## mad_scientist

JWH-250 does not have a naphthalene ring and so will not share the possible cancer risk that the others have.

However none of these compounds can be considered "safe" to experiment with! Many of them have never even been tested in mice and their toxicology is completely unknown, so if ever there were research chemicals people should be particularly cautious about, it is these ones.


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## Jabberwocky

MattPsy said:


> "With the synthies when you lay them down on some headies"
> 
> So you're pyrolyzing them to all hell too. Who knows what the pyrolysis products are - i'll bet they aren't nice though, and maybe responsible for your "glue"! That's probably why you're using so much... most of it is probably getting burnt up!
> 
> -073 is noted as being about half the potency of the -018. I vapourise 2-3mg of the -018 and i'm high as hell for many hours. So, 4-6mg should be equivalent for the -073. Nowhere near 100, no?
> 
> FWIW I have not noticed any "glue"-like properties or significant residue when vapourising in glass. Your Mileage May Vary.



hey bro good thoughts

but I am sure I am not losing any, as I have experimented with both methods (glass DMT pipe and foil and regular pipe). I have a lot of trips with DMT off herb in a regular bowl and I'm sure there is no loss in potency when you're careful for vaporizing it. You just have to carefully control heat.

Anyways I'm out. Don't want to get bashed anymore as a person trying to impress people or whatever. I was just trying to help out my experience. Sorry for offending.


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## vecktor

mad_scientist said:


> JWH-250 does not have a naphthalene ring and so will not share the possible cancer risk that the others have.
> 
> However none of these compounds can be considered "safe" to experiment with! Many of them have never even been tested in mice and their toxicology is completely unknown, so if ever there were research chemicals people should be particularly cautious about, it is these ones.



I suspect that naphthalene is a moth repelling red herring with respect to the carcinogenic dangers of pyrolysed JWH's.


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## ex-amine

> especially with the very worrying epoxy (read GLUE-like) buildups in throat, mouth, lungs after smoking near a tenth a gram in a night.



as stated before naphthanoyl-epoxides and epoxy are 2 different beasts ,
please get your Flem tested before making these statements.



> JWH-250 does not have a naphthalene ring and so will not share the possible cancer risk that the others have.



eh....watch-out some probable methoxylated benzoyl-metabolites might even be more dangerous then these probable naphthanoyl-metabolites....
...even less research is done in these compounds then on the naphthanoyls.

i would not make any confirmed statements until 018 , 073 , 081 , 200 have been tested on human (liver) cells.


> I suspect that naphthalene is a moth repelling red herring with respect to the carcinogenic dangers of pyrolysed JWH's.



exactly !

your ex.


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## Riemann Zeta

Still, these compounds might not be entirely physically benign.  The only class of 'research' compounds that have proven almost remarkably safe are the psychedelic tryptamines and (most) phenethylamines.  Of course, there has been a death or two, but it is usually the result of gross user error/incompetence: a unfortunate soul that mistakes one chemical for another or a dumbfuck teenager who wants to get m4d fuX0r'd up and insufflates 150mg of 2C-T-7.  Other than those acute instances of sad mistake or Darwinian epitome, they seem at least relatively non-toxic.  These might be the exact opposite: virtually impossible to kill one's self with, but manifesting a subtle chronic toxicity.


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## willkell420

"I suspect that naphthalene is a moth repelling red herring with respect to the carcinogenic dangers of pyrolysed JWH's."  Meaning the dangers have been exaggerated to keep the hype from spreading?  Correct me if I have misunderstood your statement...


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## psychedelicious

Ok, so you smoke 15 mg of JWH-018 in a night. Or, say, 30 mg of 073. That means that you have >15 or >30 mg respectively of metabolites floating around, right? Is that enough carcinogen to give you cancer, significantly increase risk of cancer, or fuck you up in any other way? How about if you smoke the aforementioned doses of JWHs twice a week for a year? that's close to the moderate pot smoker's yearly # of days of smokage...

(not expecting answers right now obviously but any ideaS?)


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## vecktor

willkell420 said:


> Meaning the dangers have been exaggerated to keep the hype from spreading?  Correct me if I have misunderstood your statement...


meaning these things could easily be carcinogenic without any napthylene ring. 
hopefully the hype will be stop itself, either it stops or these things get scheduled. as a class they aren't that great, there are a couple that are interesting and good.

certain idiot vendors, you know who you are, need to wake up and get sensible fast.


----------



## Holy_cow

I think it's nonsense to claim that naphthaleneyl containing groups are carcinogenic due to some epoxide formed metabolically. Just look at duloxetine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duloxetine) which contains the same naphthalenyl group as JHW-18 and is used as a medication for humans. Duloxetine would't have gotten that far if there was any indication that it's carcinogenic. Saying that JHW-18 is carcinogenic due its naphthalenyl moiety is just bullshit.


----------



## vecktor

Holy_cow said:


> I think it's nonsense to claim that naphthaleneyl containing groups are carcinogenic due to some epoxide formed metabolically. Just look at duloxetine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duloxetine) which contains the same naphthalenyl group as JHW-18 and is used as a medication for humans. Duloxetine would't have gotten that far if there was any indication that it's carcinogenic. Saying that JHW-18 is carcinogenic due its naphthalenyl moiety is just bullshit.



in a similar way are you saying that on the basis of a naphthalenoxy moety in a drug wih different PK that there isn't a cancer risk with the napthoyl indoles?


----------



## Jabberwocky

you hack most of the glue out anyways the morning after in one or two big ole loogies...so I doubt you end up keeping most of it in you anyways...


----------



## ex-amine

Arachidonic acid , one of the humans major omega-6-fatty acids (comes in many foods), has epoxizised metabolites within our human bodies also :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachidonic_acid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxygenase

And archidonic acid is biosynthed within the body to one of our endogenous cannabinoids : Anandamine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anandamide


the question still remains : how bad are these JWH-epoxides ?


----------



## MurphyClox

psychedelicious said:


> Ok, so you smoke 15 mg of JWH-018 in a night. Or, say, 30 mg of 073. That means that you have >15 or >30 mg respectively of metabolites floating around, right? Is that enough carcinogen to give you cancer, significantly increase risk of cancer, or fuck you up in any other way? How about if you smoke the aforementioned doses of JWHs twice a week for a year? that's close to the moderate pot smoker's yearly # of days of smokage...



Nobody (absolutely NOBODY) can say after which dose you will have a x% higher risk of getting cancer. In theory one single molecule is enough to cause the harm. Of course, that's just theory. The most practical and realistic approach to cancerogenic substances is to avoid contact _at all_, or as much as possible.



Gaian Planes said:


> you hack most of the glue out anyways the morning after in one or two big ole loogies...so I doubt you end up keeping most of it in you anyways...


UHHH!!! Bad misconception. Even if only minute amounts stay in your respiratory ways (and it's probably more than just "minute") that would be enough to cause _major_ trouble. Cancerogenics acts in the long-term and are usually applied chronically and in low doses. Best known example, albeit not the only one: Cigarettes!



Holy_cow said:


> I think it's nonsense to claim that naphthaleneyl containing groups are carcinogenic due to some epoxide formed metabolically. Just look at duloxetine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duloxetine) which contains the same naphthalenyl group as JHW-18 and is used as a medication for humans. Duloxetine would't have gotten that far if there was any indication that it's carcinogenic. Saying that JHW-18 is carcinogenic due its naphthalenyl moiety is just bullshit.



Very bad *misconception*, too, IMO. In short, some reasons:

1. While it is allowed to compare JWH-015 (for which the toxicology study was made) with JWH-018 (which is the most prevalent AAI) due to the _very close_ structural relationship, one cannot easily compare unrelated structures.
It depends for example on the orientation of the molecule in the CYP-enzyme, with causes the epoxide-intermediates. For a first idea (i.e. low reliability but at least an info), one could try a virtual docking of the substance in the relevant CYP-structure; if the naphthalene gets close to the active center, it will probably get metabolised, too. This is not trivial!! The sheer presence of a naphthalene-moiety doesn't automatically mean that this is a site for metabolism. Again: JWH-018 and 015 ARE _comparable_ and for 015 the cancerogenic metabolites were shown to be within the possibilities.

2. JWH-018 offers only very few possibilities to get metabolize at all, same to 015 and lots of other AAIs, too. This makes even less probable metabolism pathways an issue again. Now add the high lipophilicity of the compound. Combine both facts and I would vote for quite a long biological halflife _in vivo_ (...without having seen a respective study). The stuff stays in your damn fat tissue and has a LOT of time to perform even the most improbable metabolic pathways.
In Duloxetine I can see instantly _several_ possibilities to transform the molecule into an easily excretable metabolite. Wiki says "Duloxetine has an elimination half-life of about 12 hours (range 8 to 17 hours)", although I dunno where this info was taken from.

The statement that this particular compound (and closely related congeners) is _*presumably*_ (but of course not "certainly") cancerogenic in humans is absolutely justified!

Peace! _Murphy_


----------



## MattPsy

Predicted Log P's (partition coefficients) courtesy of ChemDraw...
Duloxetine, 4.33. JWH-018, 5.68. (higher = more hydrophobic)

It's significantly more lipophilic (as Murphy said - just wanted some figures too). More opportunity for Bad Stuff to happen  .


----------



## muser

I'm starting to worry a lot.  I've smoked Spice gold around 5-6 times over the past 2-3 months. I just bought a bag of spice diamond. I like spice but the theories about the JWH 018 are just scary. Should I be worried about getting cancer?


----------



## Refluxer

Muser: No.


----------



## bcuzZ

> Should I be worried about getting cancer?



As murphy said:



			
				murphy said:
			
		

> The statement that this particular compound (and closely related congeners) is presumably (but of course not "certainly") cancerogenic in humans is absolutely justified!
> 
> Peace! Murphy



mostly,it´s not only one single factor causing cancer. Do you have a disposition for cancer in your family ? Then i´d be worried more about that, than smoking spice. If this is the case *and* you smoke spice you´ll certainly be dead in approx. 475,85 days 8)
The process of getting cancer is still not yet fully understood.( why do ppl living perfectly healthy get it? ) It´s to expect that you´ll have a statistically higher chance to get cancer, if you consume substances that are connected with causing it.


----------



## MurphyClox

muser said:


> I'm starting to worry a lot.  I've smoked Spice gold around 5-6 times over the past 2-3 months. I just bought a bag of spice diamond. I like spice but the theories about the JWH 018 are just scary. Should I be worried about getting cancer?



No, not at this low rate of consumption. You probably consumed more cancerogenic stuff with BBQ'd meat and the regular food. Concerns are justified but no need to exaggerate pal!

Peace! _Murphy_


----------



## MurphyClox

MattPsy said:


> Predicted Log P's (partition coefficients) courtesy of ChemDraw...
> Duloxetine, 4.33. JWH-018, 5.68. (higher = more hydrophobic)
> 
> It's significantly more lipophilic. More opportunity for Bad Stuff to happen  .



Thx for the backup!!!


----------



## Riemann Zeta

Duloxetine also has more moieties that can be targeted for metabolism--the N-methyl can be cleaved off to form the primary amine and then the naphthylol moiety can be cleaved off.  JWH-018 is pretty much all carbon all the time.


----------



## anonymouse99

A series of pre-clinical ADME/Toxicity studies were conducted on JWH-018 including CYPs, Genotox, hERG, Cytotox, Rodent Tox (LD50, Acute Dose, Repeat Dose & Pharmakinetics).  All tests passed within tolerable guidelines. JWH-018 tested negative for genotox (ie cancer) using standard GreenScreen HC both with and without S9 (fraction from liver hepatocytes which metabolizes compounds and looks for genotoxic metabolites).

Further detailed information is forthcoming.


----------



## illerrre

anonymouse99 said:


> A series of pre-clinical ADME/Toxicity studies were conducted on JWH-018 including CYPs, Genotox, hERG, Cytotox, Rodent Tox (LD50, Acute Dose, Repeat Dose & Pharmakinetics).  All tests passed within tolerable guidelines. JWH-018 tested negative for genotox (ie cancer) using standard GreenScreen HC both with and without S9 (fraction from liver hepatocytes which metabolizes compounds and looks for genotoxic metabolites).
> 
> Further detailed information is forthcoming.



So this means the shit probably aint that lethal?

Should one that smokes twice a month be worried or could one continue with it?


----------



## vecktor

anonymouse99 said:


> A series of pre-clinical ADME/Toxicity studies were conducted on JWH-018 including CYPs, Genotox, hERG, Cytotox, Rodent Tox (LD50, Acute Dose, Repeat Dose & Pharmakinetics).  All tests passed within tolerable guidelines. JWH-018 tested negative for genotox (ie cancer) using standard GreenScreen HC both with and without S9 (fraction from liver hepatocytes which metabolizes compounds and looks for genotoxic metabolites).
> 
> Further detailed information is forthcoming.




please post the data. or allow someone independant to look at it.

remember though that these tox tests are not smoked material.

the jury is out  until there is solid data.


----------



## MurphyClox

...I've read that statement now within 2 hours at _4 different boards_. Somebody is massively spreading presumably "good" news without providing backup for the info.

Can anyone comment on reliability and reproducibility of the mentioned "GreenScreen HC"-assay?


----------



## Xaratoostrah

> Nobody (absolutely NOBODY) can say after which dose you will have a x% higher risk of getting cancer. In theory one single molecule is enough to cause the harm. Of course, that's just theory. The most practical and realistic approach to cancerogenic substances is to avoid contact at all, or as much as possible.



Yo Murphy!

Since i see quite some interest in this thread and people are already being concerned for smoking the..."godsend" spice, i think it would be good to elaborate more on this issue. For me , my prime interest is people to get an as most accurate as possible idea of how the "mechanics" of mutagenicity/carcinogenicity take place.

First of all carcinogenesis is not usually a "one step" procedure. That means that usually before a cell turns carcinic more than one changes happen to it.They have to do with cell cycle regulation (especially the cell division -mitotic procedures-) , with the cell's mechanisms to rectify this -a minimum of them must be turned "off" lets say-, and then later other steps that could possibly allow the cell to become dislogged from the tissue it resides in, migrate to another position and be CAPABLE of angiogenesis to ensure a supply of blood to the tumor ,and hence its survival. The last series of events concern "metastasis" ,a phenomenon when cancer cells migrate to multiple organs usually through the bloodflow.This stage also is where the quite promising "antimetastatic" medications fit in ,inhibiting angiogenesis (blood vessel formation) . All of the above mechanisms are controled at a genetic level, hence mutations might cause cancer IF they hit the "right" genes. Now this "IF" is the whole story...

Some people have predisposition to cancer meaning that propably they carry mutations/alleles and to put it simply they are "one step ahead" in cancer formation than those who dont.

On the "IF" issue : Indeed a single molecule of a substance COULD cause a mutation as its DIRECT action or as action of one of its metabolites. What would have to happen is the molecule or the metabolite to interact with DNA and -through a variety of mechanisms- either interfere with its correct duplication during a mitotic cycle or straightforwardly change something in its chemical structure. 

I would say this issue looks akin to the radioactivity "bullet and target" mutagenicity : Imagine the mutagenic molecule as a "stray bullet" in a room.It might hit noone.It might hit someone in a multitude of ways from crippling him to only a superficial wound to killing him by a "bullseye" on his/her heart. So a stray bullet can be dangerous. Increasing the QUANTITY of the molecules ,it is as if increasing the quantity of stray bullets. Increasing the FREQUENCY of the administration,increases via propability that in a "bullet firing session" someone gets hurt.

So as said before , the safest option would be not to fire straight bullets in a room ,there is chance someone dropping dead or worse  . If one HAS to fire bullets -bulletophiliacs  - then fewer bullets, less frequent firings guarantee *comparative safety* than a  barrage of bullets.

Hope this clears up the issue a bit, and mostly to clear up WHY cant anyone tell what is the chance of causing mutation to DNA AND lead to carcinogenicity with certainity.



> Can anyone comment on reliability and reproducibility of the mentioned "GreenScreen HC"-assay?



I cannot promise anything yet, but if i can have a toxicologist look at the data i will do and report back. I will have a look at them myself, although im far from qualified on this field


----------



## Jabberwocky

post it here


----------



## muser

I really hope that Jwh-018 isn't that dangerous as some theories say. I was pretty worried for a while before.


----------



## illerrre

Some say it might be VERY likely to cause cancer since cigaretts which also creates epoxides only contain 1/2000 as much as jwh-018 does.

Any comment on this?


----------



## illerrre

illerrre said:


> Some say it might be VERY likely to cause cancer since cigaretts which also creates epoxides only contain 1/2000 as much as jwh-018 does.
> 
> Any comment on this?



To clearify this means that smoking one spice joint is like smoking 2000 cigaretts.


----------



## muser

illerrre said:


> To clearify this means that smoking one spice joint is like smoking 2000 cigaretts.



Dear Lord....  I'm starting to worry again.


----------



## Lemon Partier

Wow, and I was gonna order some JWH-018. Maybe I'll get 073 instead 'cause that sounds really scary.


----------



## illerrre

Lemon Partier said:


> Wow, and I was gonna order some JWH-018. Maybe I'll get 073 instead 'cause that sounds really scary.



As I've understood you'll face the same danger with 073 as with 018.


----------



## MurphyClox

@Xarathoostra:
THANKS MAN! Wonderful reply!!!


----------



## bcuzZ

nice comment about the dangers of jwh18 at pierre markuse, murphy.


----------



## phatass

Is JWH-018 really far more powerfull when vaporised rather than burnt?


----------



## deep7

phatass said:


> Is JWH-018 really far more powerfull when vaporised rather than burnt?


No, in my opinion it is not, at least when you can really equate JHW-018 with Spice in this issue (and I am just daring to do so).  SWIM vaporized it on 193°C. The effect (and there was one) was not stronger than smoked.

Moreover, I would be pleased, if the one who said that JHW-018 is 2000 times more dangerous than a cigarette, added a serious source to his frightening statement. I would really like to have a comparation between JHW-018 and for example cured meat or even cigarettes concernig the dimension of the cancerogenic potential, but 1. with a source added and 2. not with such a bad result for JHW-018


----------



## muser

I have a 3gram bag of spice diamond that I opened like 2 days ago. I don't know if I should smoke it or not. Jwh-018 seems to be really dangerous, but I really like the high spice gives.


----------



## illerrre

deep7 said:


> No, in my opinion it is not, at least when you can really equate JHW-018 with Spice in this issue (and I am just daring to do so).  SWIM vaporized it on 193°C. The effect (and there was one) was not stronger than smoked.
> 
> Moreover, I would be pleased, if the one who said that JHW-018 is 2000 times more dangerous than a cigarette, added a serious source to his frightening statement. I would really like to have a comparation between JHW-018 and for example cured meat or even cigarettes concernig the dimension of the cancerogenic potential, but 1. with a source added and 2. not with such a bad result for JHW-018



three different PAHs present in high concentrations in
cigarette smoke: 1-methylanthracene (1-MA; 1500 ng/
cigarette), benzo(a)pyrene (B(a)P; 25 ng/cigarette),
and phenanthrene (PA; 362 ng/cigarette) 

You need about 3 mg of jwh-018 and maybe half the jwh-018 molecule is the naphtha. That would mean a 1000 times more dangerous.


----------



## invert

Does exposure to a given amount of a given carcinogenic molecule within a brief period equate to exposure to the same amount over a longer period in terms of likelihood of an outcome of cancer, or would it be either less or more likely?


----------



## deep7

illerrre said:


> three different PAHs present in high concentrations in
> cigarette smoke: 1-methylanthracene (1-MA; 1500 ng/
> cigarette), benzo(a)pyrene (B(a)P; 25 ng/cigarette),
> and phenanthrene (PA; 362 ng/cigarette)
> 
> You need about 3 mg of jwh-018 and maybe half the jwh-018 molecule is the naphtha. That would mean a 1000 times more dangerous.


I just did some little research to this issue and found out, that the cancerogenic potential of 1-methylanthracene is mainly in the unmetabolized 1-methylanthracene itself: _These results indicate that a prominent component of cigarette smoke, namely methylanthracenes with distinct structural configurations, could be a potential etiological agent contributing to the epigenetic events of pancreatic cancer._ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17266035)

This makes me mistrust the validity of your comparison of JHW-018 with 1-methylanthracene, which namely belongs to the "dangerous" PAHs, but seems to act cancerogenig even in the first way - in its unmetabolized form - and this by directly influencing the differentiation of (pancreatic) cells (see source).

Please consider that I am not very well schooled in this whole topic about metabolism pathways and the ways of cancer-generation, that is to say in chemistry at all. I only want to give some (likely helpful) suggestions.


----------



## muser

So...if you smoke it once a week, how bad is that? Will it most likely cause cancer, but wouldn't it take a while? I mean, I hope that your lungs can recover from like 10 times of smoking spice.


----------



## MurphyClox

deep7 said:


> No, in my opinion it is not, at least when you can really equate JHW-018 with Spice in this issue (and I am just daring to do so).[1]  SWIM [2] vaporized it on 193°C. The effect (and there was one) was not stronger than smoked.
> 
> Moreover, I would be pleased, if the one who said that JHW-018 is 2000 times more dangerous than a cigarette, added a serious source to his frightening statement.[3] I would really like to have a comparation between JHW-018 and for example cured meat or even cigarettes concernig the dimension of the cancerogenic potential, but 1. with a source added and 2. not with such a bad result for JHW-018



[1] I agree to the extend that the same amount will cause the same effects, doesn't matter by which route you apply it . But - and that is _maybe_ what phatass pointed to: You need more starting material when smoking, because JWH-018 easily decomposes upon overheating. Therefore, one will loose more material when smoking due to pyrolysis (and a portion of the pyrolysis-products gets inhaled as well...yammi yammi).

[2] Just one kind hint: That SWIM-thing is neither helpful nor welcome here. Just let it go... 

[3] While I support the scepticism towards these compouds, I would disagree with the mentioned relationship (...1:2000). The current state of information does not allow for such blatant comparisons.

Peace! _Murphy_


----------



## MattPsy

So, sure, cigarettes may produce much less (by weight!) potentially carcinogenic metabolites.
Big fucking deal.
Are we ignoring the fact that some molecules are going to be much more _efficacious_ than others in their carcinogenic and genotoxic capabilities? Is one molecule not more likely to be an DNA intercalator (for example) than another? The playing field is not level here.

To everyone wanting to know whether because they've smoked a cannibimimetic smoking mix X times in the past; 
*No-one can tell you how long you have to live, nor whether you will get cancer, nor how long it will take, nor how bad it will be.... nor whether you will win the lottery next week for that matter. Stop asking, it's nonsensical.*

And yes, -018 will be more potent if vaporised rather than smoked. Since smoking almost inevitably results in destruction/rearrangement/etc of active material (it's HOT!) i'd have thought that was pretty obvious.


----------



## illerrre

Can spice be vaporized?

I know that chillin xxx a.k.a skunk a new breed of weed cannot be vaporized so what does that mean? Obviously chillin xxx a.k.a skunk anbow isn't sprayed with jwh-018. Is there any other jwh-xxx that cannot be vaporized?


----------



## MurphyClox

Yeah, most of the _simple_ AAIs can be vaporized...


----------



## illerrre

MurphyClox said:


> Yeah, most of the _simple_ AAIs can be vaporized...



Which are the simple ones then? Is 073 a simple one?

Is it only the simple ones that might metabolize to these dangerous molecules?


----------



## Hammilton

Look at the structures.  You can easily google them.  JWH-018 is very simple, it's almost entirely carbon and hydrogen.

Yes, the simpler ones are more dangerous, but it's impossible to say whether or not the others are also dangerous.


----------



## illerrre

so in theory skunk anbow probably isn't as dangerous as skunk anbow right?

Cuz skunk anbow doesnt work in vaporizer = not as simple

not as simple = not as dangerous.


----------



## deep7

I am still looking forward to an underpinning of anonymouse99's post. He said that there is no cancerogenity at all for JWH-018 (and he did so not only in this web forum): 





> A series of pre-clinical ADME/Toxicity studies were conducted on JWH-018 including CYPs, Genotox, hERG, Cytotox, Rodent Tox (LD50, Acute Dose, Repeat Dose & Pharmakinetics). All tests passed within tolerable guidelines. JWH-018 tested negative for genotox (ie cancer) using standard GreenScreen HC both with and without S9 (fraction from liver hepatocytes which metabolizes compounds and looks for genotoxic metabolites).
> 
> Further detailed information is forthcoming.


Even if Mouse seems to know more than the inventor of JWH-018, John W. Huffman, the fact, that JWH-018 is - pursuant to Wikipedia - _"currently being researched as a potential analgesic to be administered by transdermal patch"_, makes me at least doubt the apparently self-evident harmfulness of the substance, which is just being propagandized everywhere.


----------



## MattPsy

... yes, but as said elsewhere, patents are often applied for even if the applicants of them don't believe there will be a real application of it.  More flexibility that way.
I am also beginning to think anonymouse is full of shit, to put it bluntly. Either post the data, or look like a fool for announcing it then bringing nothing to the table.


----------



## anonymouse99

I'm currently traveling during the holidays and thus the delay and difficulties in posting the detailed report. I will post the data as soon as I can, hopefully within the next week.  

I'm sure many will either question its authenticity or seek new arguments to further the position that JWH-018 is dangerous.  

The claim of absolute safety for JWH-018 is not being made here, as there are other unknowns some of which have already been pointed out.   We are simply stating ADME-Tox studies were completed as part of our own due diligence process.  The genotox greenscreen with S9 test brings further light to the epoxide cancer concerns, and our data clearly refutes Murphy's theory that JWH causes cancer. 

We will also provide analysis data for the JWH-018 used in the studies which clearly demonstrates very high purity of the production.

These studies are quite expensive and a significant step forward to defining the toxicological profile of JWH-018.


----------



## MattPsy

Ok, thanks for an update. I for one look forward to seeing it.


----------



## vecktor

anonymouse99 said:


> I'm currently traveling during the holidays and thus the delay and difficulties in posting the detailed report. I will post the data as soon as I can, hopefully within the next week.
> 
> I'm sure many will either question its authenticity or seek new arguments to further the position that JWH-018 is dangerous.
> 
> The claim of absolute safety for JWH-018 is not being made here, as there are other unknowns some of which have already been pointed out.   We are simply stating ADME-Tox studies were completed as part of our own due diligence process.  The genotox greenscreen with S9 test brings further light to the epoxide cancer concerns, and our data clearly refutes Murphy's theory that JWH causes cancer.
> 
> We will also provide analysis data for the JWH-018 used in the studies which clearly demonstrates very high purity of the production.
> 
> These studies are quite expensive and a significant step forward to defining the toxicological profile of JWH-018.



Enough of this, either  post  some real data or shut up. 
you clearly have commercial interest here, and this is very similar to the analysis mentioned by delic  that is secret classified that  supposedly shows that the brown rubbish is 98% pure, 

even if you are travelling you should be able to  post the name of the company that did the tox trials. as well as some information that gives your claims at least some credibility.
did you test via an inhalational route, 
did you test the carcinogenic activity of pyrolysed material? do you even know what is produced during the pyrolysis of JWH 018???

you also give the impression to me that you know next to nothing about toxicology,  

*
Mouse, I call bullshit on this. your challenge is to prove otherwise, * I want you to prove me wrong. I desperately want for JWH 018 to be safe otherwise you are party to one of the most dangerous and unethical trials on unsuspecting humans that the world has seen since the CIA in the 1950's.


----------



## MurphyClox

anonymouse99 said:
			
		

> The genotox greenscreen with S9 test brings further light to the epoxide cancer concerns, and our data clearly refutes Murphy's theory that JWH causes cancer.


I have to be pedantic and request to get cited _accurately_: I always used the terms "possibly", "presumably" and alike in combination with "cancer" or "cancerogenic".

As a scientist, I'm willing to readjust my statements in the light of new analytical results. But as Vecktor, MattPsy and others already said: We haven't seen these results yet.
PLEASE stop pointing to a presumable safety when users could take this as granted. Always prove your statements!

- _Murphy_


----------



## phatass

anyone else get mad munchies from JWH-018 or am i just a fatass?


----------



## muser

phatass said:


> anyone else get mad munchies from JWH-018 or am i just a fatass?



I get mad munchies from Spice (ie jwh-018 ).


----------



## MurphyClox

What the hell are 'mad munchies'?


----------



## ungelesene_bettlek

MurphyClox said:


> What the hell are 'mad munchies'?


I think he means a strong appetite stimulation, like it is usual for cannabinoids.


----------



## MurphyClox

Then my answer is YES: Appetite is suggested to get triggered via CB1 (plz somebody correct me if I'm wrong) and as long as a substance is a sufficiently potent agonist there, you will get hungry like hell... 'Experimentally' confirmed for weed and JWH-018 as well.


----------



## hugo24

Half-life "appears" quite shorter than Duloxetin etc.,but this is subjective judgement.Once smoked 10mg JWH-081 (pentyl,with a methoxi) and while "quite uncomfortable",it was over within an hour mostly.The reason I make this point,the alkyl-indole is slightly basic which could lower logP and increase excretion.


----------



## deep7

MurphyClox said:


> I have to be pedantic and request to get cited _accurately_: I always used the terms "possibly", "presumably" and alike in combination with "cancer" or "cancerogenic".


He talked about your "theory", and a theory is always based on assumptions. So this is no inaccurate quote of yours.

Besides, and in this point I am in complete agreement with you, Murphy, Mouse could not really improve his credibility with his latest posting... he has not provided any informative basis yet.


----------



## deep7

*Carcinogens not necessarily carcinogenic*

Here is something encouraging referring to the whole issue about carcinogenicity that accounts for the strange title of my post:
_
"In fact, our food contains not only a few, but probably thousands of chemicals which could produce cancer in animal studies. Therefore it makes little sense to complain about every new discovered natural material for which there are toxicologic animal studies plus a sensitive verification procedure. The crucial question rather is, if there is a epidemiological correlation between a certain aliment and the development of cancer."_ 

*Source: http://www.tagesspiegel.de/meinung/kommentare/Krebsausloeser-Acrylamid-Glycidamid;art141,2596976 (german)*

OK, the thing with the sensitive verification procedure, which refers to the possibility of detecting even the tiniest amounts of a chemical, is not really appliable on JWH-018, which is suspected to produce comparatively high amounts of possibly carcinogenic substances (via metabolism) due to its high amount (milligrams) in Spice.

But there is another interesting information which is concerning the thing with the epidemiological correlation and is namely about _glycidamide_, the primary epoxide metabolite of acrylamide and the likely cause of the carcinogenic effects of acrylamide observed in animal studies:

While the concentrations of glycidamide found in food are (with 0,3 - 1,5 microgramm pro kilogramm) about 1000 times less than the ones of acrylamide itself, it is in any case produced in much higher concentrations via the metabolization of acrylamide in the lever.

However, there seems to be no interrelation between the consumption of both acrylamide and glycidamide and the most common forms of cancer. There is no single statistic correlation, not even at factory workers who have been exposed to high doses of acrylamide over years.


----------



## anonymouse99

Vektor you are making some incorrect assumptions. 

We have nothing to do with the idiot RC venders and commercial JWH-018. I agree with you about the ungodly purity of the JWH-018 that is being circulated along with the false purity claims from the RC company are quite revolting.

I did not claim to have tested pyrolysed, inhalation route, etc... Answer is No. As far as I know, those issues remain yet to be further defined.

If we intended to name the lab that did the tox work I would not be posting here anonymously.

I'm travelling half way around the world at the moment, and I don't have access to my files. The reason I posted first without having details in hand was Murphy said he was preparing his report about the epoxide and other issues and I wanted provide some alternative perspective and discussion before that article went to print. He has posted it already anyway, so the jwh causes cancer story will likely circulate to the media regardless. You can be sure the media will fail to mention the words "possibly" and "presumed".

Murphy I'm glad to hear your open and willing to adjust your report as further data comes in. 

I have nothing to prove here, simply wish to bring some very interesting data to the table. OK I will just shut up now and return when I have the report.

Adios and Merry Xmas!


----------



## MattPsy

hugo24: Yeah it's an interesting point huh, the short duration of effect. As for as non-epoxide metabolites go (so, we avoid the aromatic rings), i'd have thought N-alkyl chain terminal hydroxylation and N-dealkylation to be the most probable. Both these metabolites should be inactive (or much less active, anyway), satisfying the short duration. The former metabolite has a log P of 3.78 and the latter, 4.48. Still somewhat high but not too bad.  So I guess the question is, would these be eliminated quickly enough that further metabolism on the aromatic rings (leading to epoxide pathways) isn't required or constitutes only a tiny fraction of the ingested dose ?


----------



## vecktor

anonymouse99 said:


> Vektor you are making some incorrect assumptions.
> 
> If we intended to name the lab that did the tox work I would not be posting here anonymously.
> 
> I have nothing to prove here, simply wish to bring some very interesting data to the table. OK I will just shut up now and return when I have the report.
> 
> Adios and Merry Xmas!



no. I have been careful with my wording not to suggest any link with the commercial vendors or the chinese company(s) that is making this. 

My personal gut feeling is that JWH 018 is safe and the epoxidation is a red herring, I have said as much previously.  however I have concerns about the safety of impure material and the safety of smoking any of these materials. but I have no solid data at present.

I await your report with interest.

A thought for the day :

The cameleon be better camouflaged if it were transparent


----------



## fastandbulbous

phatass said:


> anyone else get mad munchies from JWH-018 or am i just a fatass?




I had one of the worst cases of munchies from JWH-018


----------



## everhopeful

*Real world use*

For a change we have empirical "evidence" as opposed to the usual theoretical or modeling. As was pointed out, Spice has been using JWH-018 for a while and I know of one product that has been on the market for a year or so that contains it with thousands of packets per week going out, and many customers using daily/weekly for that whole time. The lab that makes the 018 has two people there that have been evening smokers of the product nearly every day for 15-18 months.
While I appreciate that none of these folk were given full medicals before they began, nor was their lifestyle/demographic detail tab'd, but to the best of my knowledge no one has developed anything either.
Remember, depending on what software you use THC is a potential carcinogen with some metabolites that should worry observers too.
Cancer appears to be a package, with the triggers being different from one to another which might help explain the myriad irresponsible bastards that seem to do whatever they like and have little/no health issues, while we all know of the poor sod who seemed to lead a blameless, macrobiotic, Ironnman lifestyle and died of brain cancer at 36. As a practical geneticist once said "If you want a long and healthy life, pick your parents".
I'm not advocating anything, just making the observation that a manufacturer that uses this compound regularly visits a major outlet and talks to employees and customers to get any feedback he can, and has to date not heard of a single case of any illness or condition that has persisted in over the year of sale, and while this is hardly a peer reviewed, control study, it has to be of more legitimacy than any modeling, and as I can't see any organisation conducting long term studies using this or similar compounds, I would guess it's the best/only you'll hear of.:D


----------



## MurphyClox

I admit, you got a point!


----------



## Hammilton

I don't know that I agree. While at this point there is no good evidence, what you present certainly doesn't disqualify it as a potential carcinogen.  Would you have health problems from smoking cigarettes for that time period?  No, so why use their absence as any sort of disqualifying evidence for JWH-018??

I agree with Vecktor- it probably will turn out to be a red herring, but people need to be educated in the mean time.  With the looming criminalization, it will researched heavily in the years to come.


----------



## Amalgam

I made an additional cancer risk analysis on JHW-018 that is sold as fertilizer [in German], under the assumptions that
1. Naphtalene is the most harmful substance found therein
2. The purity grade of this "fertilizer" is truly 98% as indicated

I am not that well educated within biochemistry/pharmacology/etc., but do this more as a sort of hobby. Therefor I'd really appreciate it if you would take the time to read my argumentation, critizice it and punch holes into it 
I would also link to eventual answers from here myself there.

I know that my post here is practically useless for all non-German speakers here. I did a very fast translation into English, so please don't blame me for the language...



> 1. The named JWH-018 fertilizer product is not very clean, or else it would be more colorless. The indicated purity is 98%
> 
> 2. The assumed metabolite Naphtalene seems to have a carcinogenic potential.
> According to the IARC-Monograph
> 
> 
> 
> The maximal rates of metabolism measured in human lung microsomes are about 10–100 times lower than those in mice.
> [...]
> There is inadequate evidence in humans for the carcinogenicity of naphthalene.
> There is sufficient evidence in experimental animals for the carcinogenicity of naphthalene.
> [...]
> Naphthalene is possibly carcinogenic to humans (Group 2B).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2B ist the same cancer group as ethanal, a primar metabolite of ethanol.
> 
> About the carcinogenicity of naphtalene, there are 2 interesting in-vivo studies on animals.
> A) Rats were applied per oral a dose of 110mg/kg naphtalene. After 15 days there were no carcinogenic activities found yet, but after 30 days and more there were increasing DNA fragmentations (an indicator for cell death or cancer activity) in liver and brain.
> B) Mices that were applied per oral 1100 mg/kg  naphtalene showed DNA fragmentation within their brains. Mices with a genetical defect [p53 deficient] the effect already occured at 110mg/kg.
> 
> Additionaly there are indicators that naphtalene might cause hemolytic anemia, which we leave aside for the moment.
> 
> 3. The synthesis of JWH-018 should - according to MurphyClox - not need naphtalene and it is also unlikely that the synthesis causes to produce naphtalene as a by-product. Unfortunately I don't have access to any syntheses studies of JWH-018 right now to make a further risk analysis on those educts, but I assume that if there was more carcinogenic substance involved in the usual synthesis, MurphyClox would have mentioned that one.
> 
> But let's assume that the known "fertilizer" consists of 98% JWH-018 which is fully metabolized into naphtalene and that the remaining 2% are naphtalene (which is already unlikely, because naphtalene is colorless as well).
> This would yield 0.02mg pure naphtalene and 0.375mg naphtalene metabolites = 0.395mg naphtalene.
> Let's say, that naphtalene is more than 5 times more carcinogenic on humans than on mices without p53 deficiency [in my sense quite unlikely]; so 200 mg/kg are already carcinogenic. For a light human of 50kg it would take 10g of naphtalene or 25.3g fertilizer (which is about 2500 strong dosages of 10mg; usual dosages should be within 1-3mg).
> 
> The smoke of a cigarette should create about 0.422µg of naphtalene. Taking only this into consideration the fertilizer would be extremely toxic, as this would be about 937 cigarettes for 1mg of fertilizer [but cigarettes create of course a lot of other harmful substances].
> 
> We might also make a comparison on ethanal - the primar metabolite of ethanol - , that also falls within the 2B cancer scale. For mices an ip injection of 0.4µg ethanal was associated with cancer cell activity [Sister chromatid exchange in the bone marrow].
> The following comparison is in some way flawed, as the cancer activity for ethanal and naphtalene were measured in different areas with different methods and the metabolist time of both substances may also differ, but I'll do it anyway. A mice might have at least a weight of 40g = 0.04kg ; let's assume we had there 10µg/kg ethanal. Because ethanal and ethanol have almost the same molar mass, this would be about 10µg/kg metabolisized ethanol. Let's assume that the cancer activity on humans is 100 times less likely, so to start at about 1mg/kg and further that only 50% of ethanol per oral is metabolized. So if a human would drink about 2 litres of beer at 5% alcohol, he would have already metabolized 50mg of ethanal; so our 50kg human would have already reached the cancer risk level!
> 
> This leads my to the following conclusions
> *The impurity doesn't actually result in much more higher naphtalene level (5% at maximum), given that the purity level of 98% is correct.
> 
> The cancer risk - given that naphtalene ist the most harmful metabolite that might arise from the fertilizer - is small, compared to alcohol.
> 
> The risk of a hemolitic anemia, has to be further investigated.*
Click to expand...


----------



## Hammilton

ethanal = acetaldehyde for those who don't realize this (I didn't).

All of this calculation is useless though.  I don't think napthalene is a metabolite, however, we know that at least part of JWH-018, in rodents, will likely be metabolized to epoxide intermediaries.  I don't think anyone is saying free naphthalene will result, but rather these epoxide intermediary metabolites that are formed will be rather dangerous.

None of that has any meaning unfortunately.  JWH-018 expoxide metabolites could be 1000x more dangerous than free naphthalene.  Or it could be .5x as dangerous, who knows.

Then we should consider whatever the 2% garbage is (or 35%+ garbage in one vendors product!!), its dangers, the metabolites and pyrrolisis products (and their metabolites!!).  Then you need to consider the pyrolisis products of JWH-018 itself, and their metabolites.

And you think that this has absolutely any meaning?  You haven't even begun to scratch the surface.

The only one of your conclusions that makes any sense is the final one, since who knows if the claimed impurity level of 98% is accurate (because from at least one vendor, it's absolutely a lie!), and naphthalene may be much higher (if as a result of pyrolsis).  And who could possibly say that naphthalene is the most dangerous impurity or metabolite?  No one, since even the (what I suspect is a hoax) claiming to have run real somewhat valid screenings didn't look at the most likely source of carcinogens- the shit that results from burning 018.


----------



## Amalgam

Thank you for the fast reply. 



> we know that at least part of JWH-018, in rodents, will likely be metabolized to epoxide intermediaries


Could you tell me where to find those results? I only knew the JWH-015 paper by Zhang et al., which does not list any epoxide intermediaries AFAIK.

I almost guessed that the 98% purity claim is questionable, according to that photo I saw. 
Could you tell me where the 35%+ garbage result comes from?

I know that my "analysis" has very narrow assumptions. I also stated those clearly.

Of course you are right about burning JWH-018; I actually didn't take that into consideration as I regard smoking anything as way more harmful than takit it per oral [and hardly smoke anything myself].


----------



## Unregistered1911

*JwH-018*

I'm not a member here but here is a COA for one company's JWH-018. This is not from the new (Dec 4) and well known vendor, but from another Chinese company. The company info has been blurred for obvious reasons. It was posted somewhere else and reposted here. The COA describes it as an orange oil solid, not an off-white powder. This isn't conclusive (I know the well known vendor could have bought from this company etc etc), but it's the ONLY document I've seen referring to its appearance. Take it for what you will. 

http://i42.tinypic.com/k51ock.jpg

About the metabolites etc... Here is what Hoffman had to say on the subject:

Mr. Markuse,
I can only supply limited answers to your questions. We have never investigated the long term effects of JWH-018 in animals and other than the anecdotal data from Der Spiegel and assorted blogs that my wife unearthed there are no data regarding its effects in humans. In mice it is considerably more potent than THC as we published almost ten years ago. I don’t have any idea regarding the safety or toxicity of this compound nor any information regarding its bioavailablity. THC is also a CB2 agonist, although with less affinity for the CB2 receptor than JWH-018. I have no idea if 018 is a CB2 agonist or inverse agonist/antagonist. I would  note that we have made over 100 cannabimimetic indoles in the last 15 years and jWH-018 is just one of them.
I hope that I have answered your questions satisfactorily.
Regards,

John W. Huffman
Research Professor of Chemistry
Clemson University

Update:
"Please emphasize that there are no toxicology data for this compound."

REF:http://www.pierre-markuse.de/2008/12/16/spice-jwh-018-email-von-prof-john-w-huffman/

I do not know the legitimacy of this blog and I cannot read German. If it is really him, it seems odd he wouldn't at least mention epoxides, naphthalene etc as a possibility, if it is so easy to determine from the structure. :/ Perhaps if someone asked him directly?

About the well known vendor: He/she seems a bit sketchy for not providing the documents upon request. Another company was emailed and they provided a PDF within 24 hours. The prices will not be very good either without the 2 for 1 deal.

You can put this in any of the JWH-018 threads that talk about its appearance. Here's one:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=407913
Thread Title: "Jwh-018"

Thanks!


----------



## Hammilton

PURE JWH-018 should be a white crystaline solid. Now, that never happens.

It should be light yellow to yellow.  Orange would have me worried (an orange oil???)

Considering the reliability of chinese everthing else lately (melamine anyone?), I wouldn't be surprised if more than 50% of these things are forged.


----------



## Pierre_M

> I do not know the legitimacy of this blog and I cannot read German. If it is really him, it seems odd he wouldn't at least mention epoxides, naphthalene etc as a possibility, if it is so easy to determine from the structure.



Hey unregistred1911,

I am the owner of the blog you mentioned and I can assure you, that email is what J.W. Huffman answered when I asked about long term effects. i could imagine that as an active scientist he is quite careful in what he says. So he just said that there are no effects he knows about cos they have never been investigated. I would assume he could think of possible risks, maybe even the ones you speak about, but didn't mention it cos there is no proof, yet.

When I asked for his permission to make his email available on my blog he agreed and wanted me to "emphasize that there are no toxicology data for this compound".

If you have further questions about posts on my blog regarding "Spice" or "JWH-018" feel free to ask.

Pierre!


----------



## Unregistered1911

*JWh-018*

Hammilton: Could you post a link to documents describing its appearance or tell me how you came to this conclusion? Several people had posted documents that were supposed to describe JWH-018, but after looking through them they didn't. I've ordered some from one place and I'd like to know myself what it is supposed to look like. 

Pierre: Could you ask him for an opinion about the theories here (emphasizing opinion)? Anything he could say would be helpful (or maybe even ask him if he could refer us to some documents about JWH-018 that have the appearance?) That would at least put the appearance thing to rest and it'd be better hearing everything "from the horse's mouth" so to speak.
Nice blog by the way. It almost makes me wish I had gone past German 2, but even then I probably wouldn't understand it. 

Please put this here:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=407913&page=6

Thanks!


----------



## Pierre_M

@Unregistred1911:

Thank you. Try using Google Translate, not always the best translation but better than nothing.

I will prepare another email and send it sunday or monday. If there is an answer I will post it on my blog and of course leave a message here as well.

Pierre


----------



## Pierre_M

@Unregistred1911:

I just send an email to Prof. Huffman. I especially asked about the actual appearance of pure JWH-018 and possible health risks he would be willing to make an educated guess on.

As soon as I get an answer (which he allows me to make public) I'll post more information.

Greetings, Pierre!


----------



## LuxEtVeritas

pure material is white...EOD...with impurity it takes on degrees of yellow tint...almost no material will be true white as even slight impurities impart a mild light yellow hue
with high impurity it takes on orangish hues, still higher impurities will yield a darker orange/red-brown coloration

Huffman is not a toxicology expert so how would he have any better ideas than some here who probably have a background to make said hypothetical potentials better versed than he in such...whatever his response is it is no more than one more opinion and at this stage relatively meaningless

due a tox or move on....


----------



## MurphyClox

Unregistered1911 said:
			
		

> Hammilton: Could you post a link to documents describing its appearance or tell me how you came to this conclusion? Several people had posted documents that were supposed to describe JWH-018, but after looking through them they didn't. I've ordered some from one place and I'd like to know myself what it is supposed to look like.


This request was directed towards Hammilton but I'd like to provide an answer here:
The peer review journals indeed do not mention the colour of most synthesized AAIs. But there's still good evidence that WHITE is the expected coloration for pure, simple AAIs ('simple' with the meaning as 'being low-substituted'): I've seen several pictures of the well known impure JWH-018 that is mostly discussed at the moment; it was brown to dark orange as we all saw. A friend provided me with a sample, which already had a light-yellow tone and no sticky consistency anymore; HPLC provided 98.5% purity. At the _dark side_ a member posted a picture that shows some light-orange product which was obtained after a recrystallisation-step.
Conclusion: If the 'real' colour of that compound would indeed be orange, we would not expect to see an alteration in appearance upon performing purification procedures. But because we actually SEE this stepwise 'lightening up' of the substance, white (or at the most a light-yellow) must be the only option!

Some indirect evidence stems from a personal message that I received from a friend who has access to authentic (!) samples of some AAIs used in academic research. The only difference between said compound and JWH-018 is in the alkyl-chain at the indole-nitrogen. Theory tells us that alkyls do only have a weak +I-effect and do not provide further π-electrons to the mesomeric system. Therefore, the difference in colour between such derivatives would be quite a small one. Or in other words: If the sole difference is in the length resp. kind of the alkyl-sidechain but without changing its position at the ring, then the absorption maximum will be shifted only about some nm, if at all significantly. Thus, the perceived color is (almost) identical. The other AAI in question is JWH-200 (a list with lots of strutures for the JWH-designation system was posted recently here in ADD).

IMO, all speaks for a colourless compound, so this CAN'T REALLY BE THE QUESTION!!!

I have to say that I'm a bit sad about the ignorance with which some of the presented arguments (and not only mine!) are faced with. I feel the strong will to totally disapprove what was said by folks here and in other boards as well. Not by all of course, but still enough. Why is this so? These our voices of warning come in fact mosly from people who honestly appreciate those substances. This said, I can not believe why 'bias' is an often mentioned prejudice. What has to be done that an attempt to teach people about the risks of some drugs finally gains weight?

I have to insist: The appeasers did not present any conclusive data to back up their critics. That's just not how a scientific discussion is though to be led...

- _Murphy_


----------



## Hammilton

Amalgam said:


> Thank you for the fast reply.
> 
> 
> Could you tell me where to find those results? I only knew the JWH-015 paper by Zhang et al., which does not list any epoxide intermediaries AFAIK.



You obviously haven't read the paper then.  Surely you're not basing this assumption on what's contained in a short abstract?  Get the paper, read it, then you'd already know that they are mentioned.


^ And I agree with Murphy.  All of us who have done anything to make the public more aware of the potential dangers of JWH-018 have been criticized for being biased.  It's a little hilarious, I think, since AFAIK, all of us have tried the drug and found it to be VERY good.  What we don't like is the hiding of the potentially dangerous metabolites, the impure product being sold as pure, and really impure product being sold as an herbal mixture(!)-   If all of those things were made clear, then we'd have no reason to say anything on the issue.

Th


----------



## Unregistered1911

*Jwh-018*

I didn't mean to cause offense about this. I simply wanted to provide the COA that several people had asked to see (on other forums, mainly).  I believe it was asked for on here somewhere also. I thought it might be of some use here.

Hammilton: No I did not read that paper. That wasn't the one I was referring to. I was referring to "Structure–activity relationships for 1-alkyl-3-(1-naphthoyl)indoles at the cannabinoid CB1 and CB2 receptors" and a few other papers that several people had claimed had the information. None of them did. A quick search for "Jwh-018" and "1-Pentyl-3-(1-Naphthoyl)Indole" came back with nothing from that document also ("JWH-015 paper by Zhang et al") I'm concerned about the appearance (mainly) of  JWH-018, not the metabolites as there aren't any studies out yet that I know of.

MurphyClox : Thank you for explaining your reasoning (really!). Here are some questions:

Why would the company that supplies this (not the well known vendor but the one that provided the COA) not just do a simple recrystallization rather then go to the trouble of faking a COA and potentially losing customers after this came to light? It just doesn't make much sense to me. 

It could very well be yellow, maybe even at 99%. The document above mentions at least one that is a yellow oil. If that's the case, couldn't it be the color that it is at 95%-98% (it is a yellowish-light orange color after powdering, I do know that based on my sample from the well known vendor)?

Can you provide the HPLC? The reason I guess I sound a little stand off-ish is because all the "proof" other people have provided is worthless as far as I can tell. I emailed several people about an HPLC/COA that they said they had. None of them could/would provide it. 

About the other:
I somewhat take offense to the ignorance comment. I've only provided documents and References  and asked questions. I'm not a chemistry buff, nor do I claim to be, so I am very ignorant in that respect, but at least I say what I KNOW to be true, or at least try to. The whole issue seems a bit odd. This substance was around for months on various forums and no one noticed the whole naphthalene and metabolite issue. I've seen it preached as gospel some places based on virtually nothing (some even reference docs that don't even mention the chemical in question) I know people who have smoked Spice for 1-2 years with no noticeable problems (the equivalent to probably a million cigarettes if you go by the 1000 cigarettes theory).  It could all turn out to be true. Who knows?  It seems whenever you ask questions or post something that doesn't come into agreement with the "it'll kill you instantly" theory you get shot down. I just had some questions as to why it was this way, and I wanted to contribute the COA from the company that provided it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Pierre: Thanks for doing that. I hope he replies and he'll let you post it on your blog. I'd really like to hear what he has to say. If he says it could be very risky or that it shouldn't be the yellow-orange color I think I'll get rid of mine.

You can put this here:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=407913&page=6

Thanks!


----------



## cocoabud

nice thread, I've learned alot. one question though. i'm wondering if the stuff that is supposed to change my bonsai into a redwood tree is the bogus stuff that has been mentioned. thanks for any input.


----------



## Hammilton

> Hammilton: No I did not read that paper. That wasn't the one I was referring to. I was referring to "Structure–activity relationships for 1-alkyl-3-(1-naphthoyl)indoles at the cannabinoid CB1 and CB2 receptors" and a few other papers that several people had claimed had the information. None of them did. A quick search for "Jwh-018" and "1-Pentyl-3-(1-Naphthoyl)Indole" came back with nothing from that document also ("JWH-015 paper by Zhang et al") I'm concerned about the appearance (mainly) of JWH-018, not the metabolites as there aren't any studies out yet that I know of.



Wasn't responding to you, as you can see who I've quoted.


----------



## Pierre_M

@unregistred1911 @all

I just got an answer from Prof. Huffman, that's what he said:




> Mr. Markuse,
> 
> I will attempt to answer your questions:
> 
> 1) Pure JWH-018 is a VERY pale amber gum.
> 
> 2) I have absolutely no idea about the toxicity of JWH-018 nor of its long term effects. It has only been evaluated for cannabinoid activity  in mice.
> 
> I certainly don’t mind answering questions regarding JWH-018.
> 
> John Huffman




A german tranlation is available on my blog.

I did tell him an educated guess regarding health risks would be appreciated, but as I expected he didn't speculate and stuck to the facts given in his answer 2.

Greetings,

Pierre!


----------



## invert

Was his answer to the first question referring to the base of JWH-018 or one of its salts?


----------



## Jabberwocky

the jwh-018 i've seen is bright yellow crystalline. The jwh-073 I've seen is tan small powdery flecks, looks almost like an artificially flavored whey protein.


----------



## Pierre_M

@invert

My question was: What does pure JWH-018 look like?

About the color: VERY pale amber might be seen by others as bright yellow. So I would assume JWH-018 is indeed almost white with a yellow/amber touch if it is pure.


----------



## Hammilton

PURE WHITE seems to be the answer were it 100% pure, but that's unlikely to occur, so it ranges generally from almost white to yellow.  I would purify yellow crap further, but ymmv


----------



## Pierre_M

I agree with Hammilton. Maybe pure JWH-018 is indeed white, but even industrial-grade is not 100% pure. So even that might appear pale amber/yellow.


----------



## Hammilton

I don't know what industrial grade is.  I think we should be looking for pharmaceutical grade, at least 99.5% pure.


----------



## Unregistered1911

*Jwh-018*

Pierre: Thank you very much for this!! Amber is a darker golden color, so I could definitely see someone calling that yellow, pale or not.


Sorry, I forgot to put the thread on my last post. Please put this here:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=407913&page=7


----------



## anonymouse99

Hi Bluelighters, 

I have returned with the jwh-018 tox report ready to post, however I'm not able to add an attachment files.  Could a mod please bump up my account attachments status so I may post it?

Thanks


----------



## Hammilton

Post it at blacklight.in and I can post it here for you, I doubt they'll upgrade your account for that.


----------



## hamhurricane

post it here as well! or at least a summery of the findings.


----------



## Hammilton

*From Mouse99 @ Blacklight*

Thanks to Mouse99 for supplying us with these.  I'm posting them without any comments about whether or not I consider them fraudulent, but this should at least provide some discussion.



			
				Mouse99 said:
			
		

> As was previously announced:
> 
> A series of ADMET studies were completed to assess the toxicological profile of JWH-018. These studies were chosen to screen for several key issues and are typically used to identify major potential problems early in the development sequence of a new drug candidate. To fully evaluate the safety of JWH-018 more studies are needed. However, this data does provide some good signs and helps to build a much better picture of the toxicological profile of JWH-018.
> 
> The sponsor and provider of these studies wishes to remain anonymous, therefore I will not be able to provide information that would allow verification of these results. This data is provided in good faith, and I'm hopeful it will be received as such. We expect that anyone replicating part or whole of these studies will come to the same results.
> 
> And now as promised:
> Part 1 (containing 4 Attachments)
> (Tox-Results-Summary/CYPs/Cytotox/Green-Screen-HC)





> Part 2 (Containing 4 Attachments)
> (hERG/Rat-Pharmacokinetics/Rat-Repeat-Tox/JWH-018-Analysis)



Link for file downloads:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=4f9cc64ce31f6fe1d2db6fb9a8902bda


----------



## Pierre_M

Just read a press release from the german ministry of health: In January 2009 Spice will be declared illegal cos of JWH-018 as ingredient.

Press Release (german)


----------



## TheLoveBandit

Unregistered1911 said:


> Pierre: Thank you very much for this!! Amber is a darker golden color, so I could definitely see someone calling that yellow, pale or not.
> 
> 
> Sorry, I forgot to put the thread on my last post. Please put this here:
> 
> http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=407913&page=7




Quoted...since it was merged from ANON and the time stamps may have gotten it lost in the following replies....also this one



			
				Unregistered1911 said:
			
		

> Pierre: Thank you very much for this!! Amber is a deep darker golden color. I could definitely see someone calling that yellow especially if it is very pale.


----------



## Jabberwocky

I found out if you don't smoke ridiculously large amounts of this stuff then you don't get that worrying epoxy-glue-like buildup. So low doses from now on!


----------



## ex-amine

^^^^  from mouse99  tox-studies :
"Two out of the three male rats died during the high dose 5mg/kg PK study (equivalent HED is .8mg/kg or for a 68kg human a 54.4mg dose)."

yup
no more high doses.

your ex.


----------



## Coolio

Where did you get the human equivalent dose of 0.8mg/kg?


----------



## Jabberwocky

what did they die of just out of curiousity?

I got some worrying signs of respiratory depression when I combined it with GHB. Worrying enough that I had a friend make me some gatorade (to get my blood sugar up) and I got up and moved around a bit to get my blood pumping. I just thought that the synthies were synergizing with the G, but now that I think about it the synthetic cannabinoids might actually depress breathing on their own.


----------



## hamhurricane

the reasoning i hear for the safety of cannabinoids is that there are no CB receptor sites in the lower regions of the brain responsible for respiratory function, so what would the mechanism of death be???

also thats a pretty low toxic dose, it equates to a bit over 100mg for me, or less according to examine's figures, im amazed.


----------



## Jabberwocky

really. if the data from mice extrapolates thats some scary figures, cause I had friends ripping bongloads approaching about half of that (friends with really high tolerance though).

Ham, don't you agree that the synthies (JWHs at least) feel more 'fundamental' like they go across more parts of the brain. We all agree (that have tried it around here) that its a much more drug like high it feels like it shuts down more parts of your brain than normal cannabis especially when you rip high doses of it.


----------



## Limpet_Chicken

The only thing I could see as an obvious possible mechanism for fatality is the decrease in GABA release associated with cannabinoid agonists, so perhaps its not associated with respiratory depression at all, although, anecdotally, for what its worth, smoking bongloads of weed, on top of opiates, seems to magnify respiratory depression in me, I have become quite alarmed before (or at any rate in a state where I decided to take some action, being alarmed would have been pretty difficult in the states I was in ) combining just 500mg dihydrocodeine and the green stuff, the PROPER green stuff that is.

I imagine it would have to be a fairly large decrease to kill though.

Are there any published patch-clamp studies available for JWH-018 or its near relatives?
I would be very interested to compare the behaviour at the electrophysiological level to that of THC.

These are partial agonists are they not? might be quite difficult to  cause a fatality,


----------



## Riemann Zeta

Considering the large volume of fat cells available for lipophillic redistribution in humans versus rats, I would bet that the directly extrapolated LD50 of 54mg is lower than the real value considering the highly lipophillic nature of these (and really all) cannabinoids.  Not that I would ever recommend taking a super high dose with a completely untested novel class of compounds.


----------



## Hammilton

The only thing I have a REALLY hard time buying is the half life claimed in those documents.  2 hours seems far, far too low.


----------



## MurphyClox

invert said:


> Was his answer to the first question referring to the base of JWH-018 or one of its salts?



Short sidenote: There are no salts of JWH-018 because there is neither a sufficiently acidic nor a equally baseous site in the molecule. In other words: For a salt you either need an acid or a base. JWH-019 possesses neither.


----------



## invert

MurphyClox said:


> Short sidenote: There are no salts of JWH-018 because there is neither a sufficiently acidic nor a equally baseous site in the molecule. In other words: For a salt you either need an acid or a base. JWH-019 possesses neither.


Thank you! That clears up my confusion.


----------



## Hammilton

Limpet_Chicken said:


> The only thing I could see as an obvious possible mechanism for fatality is the decrease in GABA release associated with cannabinoid agonists, so perhaps its not associated with respiratory depression at all, although, anecdotally, for what its worth, smoking bongloads of weed, on top of opiates, seems to magnify respiratory depression in me, I have become quite alarmed before (or at any rate in a state where I decided to take some action, being alarmed would have been pretty difficult in the states I was in ) combining just 500mg dihydrocodeine and the green stuff, the PROPER green stuff that is.
> 
> I imagine it would have to be a fairly large decrease to kill though.
> 
> Are there any published patch-clamp studies available for JWH-018 or its near relatives?
> I would be very interested to compare the behaviour at the electrophysiological level to that of THC.
> 
> *These are partial agonists are they not? might be quite difficult to  cause a fatality*,



That assumes that these are highly selective in what they do, ie: no other affinity.  I don't know if they've been assayed for affinity at other sites, I'm sure they have to some degree, but who knows.

Not to mention possible toxicity, even if they don't do the things they were (supposedly; though if they weren't, it's an elaborate hoax) tested for, there are just so many potential ways to wreak havoc in our bodies.


----------



## ex-amine

one of the probable activity site : COX-systems.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Hammilton said:


> The only thing I have a REALLY hard time buying is the half life claimed in those documents.  2 hours seems far, far too low.



have you not tried them? 2 hours would be a long 'stone' from a rip of it. You really are completely sober in 2 hours...unlike say a bongrip or two of cannabis (leaves me stoned much longer).


----------



## Coolio

When maintaining a baseline blood cannabinoid level and tolerance to a variety of CB agonists, JWH-018 will as the dosage rises begin to become extended in duration faster than it becomes more subjectively intense. I can still feel analgesic and sensory enhancement activity 6-8 hours after vaporizing a large dose in the morning.

I think Riemann Zeta's point about lipophilic redistribution might have something to do with this.


----------



## Hammilton

Gaian Planes said:


> have you not tried them? 2 hours would be a long 'stone' from a rip of it. You really are completely sober in 2 hours...unlike say a bongrip or two of cannabis (leaves me stoned much longer).



Yeah, tons, actually.  I couldn't be called a moderate user of 018 by any means, though since last spring and somewhat into the summer, I don't use it much anymore.  Actually, since my baby was born, I haven't used it at all.

Your argument is nonsense, though.  Consider the exceptionally long half life for THC.  Does that produce an exceptionally long intoxication?  Nope.

Does buprenorphine produce an exceptionally long high?  Again, no.

Half life and length of intoxication are linked to a degree, but not very closely.


----------



## Jabberwocky

ime things with long half lives you can detect effects from longer than things with short half lives if you pay close attention.


----------



## MattPsy

To that person who said 100mg was a pretty low toxic dose - REALLY?
You only need to use 2mg to get very, very stoned. I'd say a therapeutic index of 50 is pretty high, actually, no? Most drugs do not share that margin of safety. Good luck taking 50x the regular recreational dose of methamphetamine, for example. Or say, alcohol, GHB, cocaine, opioids, DOx's, et cetera.
(I am absolutely confused when some people here speak of taking >20mg or even 50mg doses - WTF!? I can only conclude they are wasting the material, most probably through pyrolysis.)


----------



## Hammilton

Well, it wouldn't be THC high, or even benzo or fentanyl high (actually, maybe the last one, i can't find the numbers I want)


----------



## deep7

Since I am unsure of being able to interpret the results of "Mouse's study":

- The only thing whicht turned out to be "negative" referring to the consumption of JWH-018 ist the thing with the (competitive) inhibition of Cytochrome 450 enzymes, isn't it?

- This would only mean that there might be some dangers in combining JWH-018 with other drugs (1. potentiation of the drug effects 2. other drug-drug-interactions)

- Regarding the toxicity / carcinogenity of JWH-018, there is no given evidence for a high risk

Please rectify or confirm.


----------



## cocoabud

One of my thoughts, which is somewhat outside the majority of the posts in this thread but also mentioned as a concern in more than 80% of the posts is the *quality* of any samples that currently are to be found via the internet. Moving for forward I'd tend to think that a professional analysis of the various samples to be found in a database would benefit education & safety as concerns this substance. Finding the inexpensive means to conduct the necessary tests is one
roadblock. pointers to labs able and willing for a reasonable fee to determine objective analysis
and report of results would be appreciated. the research & reporting of the basic facts of any
particular variation of the substance to further education of users at this point becomes a matter of helping to better overall human health. The concept that people can do whatever they want to do to themselves I really do not care needs to be re-examined.


----------



## mad_scientist

deep7 said:


> Since I am unsure of being able to interpret the results of "Mouse's study":
> 
> - The only thing whicht turned out to be "negative" referring to the consumption of JWH-018 ist the thing with the (competitive) inhibition of Cytochrome 450 enzymes, isn't it?
> 
> - This would only mean that there might be some dangers in combining JWH-018 with other drugs (1. potentiation of the drug effects 2. other drug-drug-interactions)
> 
> - Regarding the toxicity / carcinogenity of JWH-018, there is no given evidence for a high risk
> 
> Please rectify or confirm.



Yes, if the toxicity study reported by anonymouse99 can be trusted, then it appears that JWH-018 may well inhibit CYP2C9 at clinically relevant concentrations. This means that there is potential for drug interactions with drugs that are metabolised by CYP2C9.  

The two most important drugs that this is likely to affect are phenytoin and warfarin, and if JWH-018 is indeed a CYP2C9 inhibitor then it would be expected to increase the effects of these drugs. With phenytoin this might increase unpleasant side effects, but would most likely not present any serious health concerns. Warfarin on the other hand has a very narrow therapeutic index and can lead to serious adverse effects including internal bleeding, stroke and death if the dose is not correctly titrated. 

For this reason it would be strongly advised to avoid using JWH-018 if you are taking warfarin, as while these toxicity study results remain unconfirmed for now, there is a significant potential risk of a serious drug interaction.

As for carcinogenicity, the test results do not show any obvious signs that this will be a problem, although of course the risk has not been ruled out entirely, and it is quite possible that breakdown products from pyrolysis may be more toxic than the parent compound.


----------



## Coolio

People on warfarin probably shouldn't be experimenting with research chemicals...


----------



## everhopeful

*Practical experience*

To try to help lay a few theoretical ghosts to rest;

1) I've asked moderators why I can't post attachments either and so far no luck, but if I could I would attach a pic of 98.5% 018 and it is orange/amber tinted, clear enough to read a page of text through, plastic (at warm room temp) toffee like semi solid.
- It is this physical nature that stops it being ground or powdered. If you freeze it and leave it in a tough plastic bag you can shatter it which is about the best you can do with it as a sold.
- The HCL version (only easy to produce by primitive bubbling though 018 in solution) is the usual whitish powder but of course weaker.
- The solvent content was considered too high by the manufacturer who in the process of “cleaning up” produced a yellow powder, of a strength halfway between pure and HCL.
2) The acknowledged strongest brand on the market that I know the details of contains approx 9 mg of 018 per gram/total product. So the 3 gram bag contains a maximum 30 mg of 018.

- I could number on one hand the people who could smoke a whole 3 gram packet in one sitting and  then get the top off a beer let alone do anything more complex. So those who speak of a 100 mg dose are either true giants amongst us mere mortals, or have not had high concentration (or any) 018.

- Yes I know that "strongest" is a very unscientific, vague and  personal measure but so are some other socially accepted yardsticks such as "freezing cold" and "too drunk to drive" and while the reasons and pathways to get there might be slightly different, the end results are close enough to be the same.

- A rudimentary test was conducted 6 months or so ago and again 1 month ago when 50 people from all demographics, ages, sexes and racial groups in vivo all scored close to the same in simple response tests. While there were no trustworthy peer reviewers I'm afraid, one brand was tested against another (brand, texture, taste and smell obscured) and until Genie came along, SMOKE was far and away the "strongest", and while Genie doesn't hit as hard or for as long, it was considered by most to have he closest "feel" to MJ (yep another unquantifiable to the non user) which is why some blame it for bringing the attention the industry now bemoans.
- Other manufacturers went to great pains to obscure both the MJ "feel" and also attempt to confuse analysis by incorporating small amounts of complex organic compounds/extracts, something the Spice management didn't bother to do in the case of Genie etc.

- One such inclusion that I thought was obvious but nobody ever got was Oleamide. I would welcome the expert opinion on this one please. It is used in two mixes that I know of, and before anyone gets upset about it's use as a lubricant etc remember it's endogenous capacity as well as it's extensive, long history in the food additive industry, although maybe that industry is not such a good example.

Cheers


----------



## Limpet_Chicken

I just got a load of that genie, and the smoke, managed to get like 85-90 quid worth of that, smoke and diamond for fuck all cos of some screwup.

On top of some morphine and codeine, that genie is rediculously harsh, and after smoking a quarter between that, diamond and fire, my lungs have had to be slapped into submission HARD, felt like my airway was going to close up at first after a few bongs, until I inhaled a couple of squirts of xylometazoline, managed to widen my airways enough to reverse the post bong choking.

Oh well, next bong time....whatl it be...diamond, smoke, or genie...

Out of smoke and genie which is the most potent, is it known what cannabinoids are in either? if only they didn't put the artificial shit in there and make it harsh as hell.


----------



## jon420

Just been following this thread as I have no MJ and have acquired some Spice Gold...

My chemistry knowledge is limited and I just want clarification: do the results of the analysis by mouse show the carcinogenic potential of JWH-018 to be extremely low?


----------



## deep7

jon420 said:


> Just been following this thread as I have no MJ and have acquired some Spice Gold...
> 
> My chemistry knowledge is limited and I just want clarification: do the results of the analysis by mouse show the carcinogenic potential of JWH-018 to be extremely low?


Sure you followed it?  Look four posts up and you'll find the answer: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=6700971&postcount=186


----------



## vinylmesh

jon420 said:


> Just been following this thread as I have no MJ and have acquired some Spice Gold...




Spice Gold does not contain JWH-018, neither does spice or spice diamond. Read the article!!!

It contains vanilla anologues or something, the true ingredient was never isolated.

Smoke, zohai sx and some other smoking blends contain JWH-018. SPICE DOES NOT! what was said in the article was that some new editions of spice (called spice tropical synergy or something) contained it, but the standard spice range did not.

This is why spice lasts way longer than the other blends, because it does not contain the same ingredient.


----------



## deep7

vinylmesh said:


> Spice Gold does not contain JWH-018, neither does spice or spice diamond. Read the article!!!


 What article are you referring to? I think you are wrong ^^


----------



## everhopeful

*links would contradict  http://www.kefk.org/akteure/deutscher_hanf_verband*



vinylmesh said:


> Spice Gold does not contain JWH-018, neither does spice or spice diamond. Read the article!!!
> 
> It contains vanilla anologues or something, the true ingredient was never isolated.
> 
> Smoke, zohai sx and some other smoking blends contain JWH-018. SPICE DOES NOT! what was said in the article was that some new editions of spice (called spice tropical synergy or something) contained it, but the standard spice range did not.
> 
> This is why spice lasts way longer than the other blends, because it does not contain the same ingredient.




- The Austrian Times, the Austrian Health Dept, the Frankfurt Council and quotes from THCPharma in the German press would say it does! Only three mixes were tested, all Spice, no one elses.
http://www.austriantimes.at/index.php?id=10210

- The report commissioned by the Frankfurt Council has not been released in total as far as I know, but all involved (genuinely involved) say it was three type of Spice only that was tested and THCPharma proudly quoted as saying, "..in the analyzed samples of "Spice Gold," "Arctic synergy" and "Yucatan Fire" the scientists found the substance JWH-018 in different and strongly fluctuating concentration......"


----------



## Hammilton

vinylmesh said:


> Spice Gold does not contain JWH-018, neither does spice or spice diamond. Read the article!!!
> 
> It contains vanilla anologues or something, the true ingredient was never isolated.
> 
> Smoke, zohai sx and some other smoking blends contain JWH-018. SPICE DOES NOT! what was said in the article was that some new editions of spice (called spice tropical synergy or something) contained it, but the standard spice range did not.
> 
> This is why spice lasts way longer than the other blends, because it does not contain the same ingredient.



Are you sure you know how to read?  Gold was the only Spice (insert valuable object) that was tested- and it was positive for 018- so saying that they don't contain it is awfully disingenuous.


----------



## Limpet_Chicken

Has anyone else smoked it (or any of the other JWH series, and noticed a strong diuretic effect? the spice variants seem very sedating to me, and I've noticed, I'l have to get up at night and take a huge leak several times, smoking spice products, which doesn't happen with herb.

There are two newer blends of the same ilk about now, genii and smoke, I think by the same company as is making/distributing spice/gold/diamond, they contain the same 'gen 3' logos on the packets at least, and I think, different actives, as it seems to last around 2 hours, opposed to spice diamond, which I find very sedating, lasting into the next day if I smoke it at night.


----------



## Hammilton

> 1) I've asked moderators why I can't post attachments either and so far no luck, but if I could I would attach a pic of 98.5% 018 and it is orange/amber tinted, clear enough to read a page of text through, plastic (at warm room temp) toffee like semi solid.
> - It is this physical nature that stops it being ground or powdered. If you freeze it and leave it in a tough plastic bag you can shatter it which is about the best you can do with it as a sold.
> - The HCL version (only easy to produce by primitive bubbling though 018 in solution) is the usual whitish powder but of course weaker.
> - The solvent content was considered too high by the manufacturer who in the process of “cleaning up” produced a yellow powder, of a strength halfway between pure and HCL.
> 2) The acknowledged strongest brand on the market that I know the details of contains approx 9 mg of 018 per gram/total product. So the 3 gram bag contains a maximum 30 mg of 018.



How do you suppose you make a salt?  Seems a bit impossible...


----------



## vecktor

Hammilton said:


> How do you suppose you make a salt?  Seems a bit impossible...



the indole nitrogen can form a salt, however treating any indole with HCl is not a good idea.


----------



## cocoabud

my personal experience has been limited to placing less than 1mg on top of a herb smoking blend. I was impressed with the results. I also have to say that 100mg would IMO be a very large, almost too large, of a quantity. People who need that quantity need to take another look at moderation. less is more, etc. Of course I have no real idea what it is that I researched and am only accepting the vendors claims. That behavior is somewhat scary to me and so I find it would be nice to over time determine somehow if all the claims are true.


----------



## Tr1pp1n

Worst experience of my life last night,I felt the fear of death's cold breath harder then I could even imagine.I felt like shooting myself in the head to stop the feeling that my blood in my body was boling from my toes all the way up to my head cooking,and felt like it was getting electrecuted and poked with thousands of pins and needles everywhere.The stuff I got was reddish brown looking and very sticky.It was supposedly a 35 mg sample but damn,It almost looked microscopic already.My friend threw in the whole chunk by accident and I blasted the whole 35 mg chunk in one hit,and my friend must have gotten only just a taste.We were already stoned and have high tolerances,he knows almost nothing about the substance.I told him to put a shaving in there so he throws in the whole fucking thing.His excuse was,Its already so tiny,how could I even divide this amount into doseages.Trust me,heas not my friend nemore and his face is very sore now.But two minutes after the hit felt nothing,then boom.Got this horrible fire and electric feeling in my toes,and then progressed through my body.Thought I was going to go into seizures with my blood cooking at 108.Cold water saved my life,reality was out the window,but taking my mind off of it was the only thing that helped besides the water.It was so hard to do that though,a couple minutes max,I thought it was over,but I had a horrible panic attack 2day,thinking I was going to die.Having trouble typing this,god my fucking heart is pounding.I wanted to put out a warning fellas,this stuff is insanely potent,and I think evil.Watch out guys,im never touching ne drug ever again.


----------



## yaesutom

Yeah I think i've read enough bad things about 018 to not want to get any - but 073.. good stuff lol


----------



## Coolio

I haven't read anything bad that didn't involve an overdose...


----------



## MurphyClox

Agreed!
Overdose and/or long-term use seem to be the major trouble-makers. Overdoses on full CB1-agonists are said to be generally unpleasant!! Therefore, the trip report is credible but still no real surprise to me. - _Murphy_


----------



## everhopeful

*Reading skills*



Hammilton said:


> Are you sure you know how to read?  Gold was the only Spice (insert valuable object) that was tested- and it was positive for 018- so saying that they don't contain it is awfully disingenuous.




- My Mummy checks all my words, cause it's tha letterz I have trubbal wif.

- Obviously just being able to read doesn't seem to help your other mental processes.
- The report and press comments from the company that was commissioned to do the testing has more credibility than a secondhand forum post surely?
- Unless they have mislead the German Health Dept, the media and the people who paid them to undertake the testing, THCPharma have publicly stated what was tested and what they found.
- If you know of and have sighted another test and report than the one by THCPharma commissioned by the Frankfurt Council then I am wrong and apologise, but if not, and I have not heard of the Frankfurt Council releasing the report they paid for, then how can you argue against the company that actually did the testing?
- If you have an actual official report then please lets see it, but until anything factual to the contrary is produced, THCPharma etc have facts and data and you have............... oh yeah reading.


----------



## MurphyClox

_Come on guys, please behave, both of you!  ADD is not the place for flaming. Such things can be dealt out in the "Social Club". Over there, people are insulting each other like its sports..._


----------



## illerrre

Let's say jwh-018 would turn out to be very cancerinogenic. Would I run a high risk of getting cancer from smoking a maximum of 90mg over a year?


----------



## bcuzZ

illerrre said:


> Let's say jwh-018 would turn out to be very cancerinogenic. Would I run a high risk of getting cancer from smoking a maximum of 90mg over a year?



................................. -.-

How many marlboro cigaretts do i have to smoke to get lung cancer ? And how many to get skin cancer ? and what if i stick my finger in my ass while smoking ?

sorry 8) but no one can tell you the answer. Someone in this thread gave a simple explanation, how cancerogenesis works. What kind of answer did you actually expect ? Yes, high risk, 78% ?


----------



## illerrre

bcuzZ said:


> ................................. -.-
> 
> How many marlboro cigaretts do i have to smoke to get lung cancer ? And how many to get skin cancer ? and what if i stick my finger in my ass while smoking ?
> 
> sorry 8) but no one can tell you the answer. Someone in this thread gave a simple explanation, how cancerogenesis works. What kind of answer did you actually expect ? Yes, high risk, 78% ?



I'd say if you smoke 1 cigarette a day for the rest of your life you'll run a high risk of getting cancer.

So what I'm actually asking for is how cancerogenic (or however it's spelled) can jwh-018 be compared to cigarettes?

If it's just as cancerogenic as cigarettes I don't think anyone is worried. If it can be a hundred times more cancerogenic then I prolly wont sleep tight for the rest of my life...


----------



## MurphyClox

illerrre said:
			
		

> I'd say if you smoke 1 cigarette a day for the rest of your life you'll run a high risk of getting cancer. [1]
> 
> So what I'm actually asking for is how cancerogenic (or however it's spelled) can jwh-018 be compared to cigarettes? [2]
> 
> If it's just as cancerogenic as cigarettes I don't think anyone is worried. If it can be a hundred times more cancerogenic then I prolly wont sleep tight for the rest of my life...



[1] What means "high risk"?
[2] As noted before: Such a comparison IS NOT POSSIBLE. Additionally, the only info that states that the compounds _could_ act cancerogenic comes from _one single_ study. That makes further comparison even more difficult.

I have to emphasize that there is generally NO cut-off value for cancerogenics. You can for example NOT say something like: Inhaling 5 mg benzene won't cause cancer, while 10 mg will do so. That's just not how it works. Repeated and/or prolonged exposure to a cancerogenic substance will increase the risk of getting a tumor. Period. But numbers can't be given. You also have to pay attention to metabolic differences between different individuals...

- _Murphy_


----------



## invert

MurphyClox said:


> [1] What means "high risk"?
> [2] As noted before: Such a comparison IS NOT POSSIBLE. Additionally, the only info that states that the compounds _could_ act cancerogenic comes from _one single_ study. That makes further comparison even more difficult.
> 
> I have to emphasize that there is generally NO cut-off value for cancerogenics. You can for example NOT say something like: Inhaling 5 mg benzene won't cause cancer, while 10 mg will do so. That's just not how it works. Repeated and/or prolonged exposure to a cancerogenic substance will increase the risk of getting a tumor. Period. But *numbers can't be given*. You also have to pay attention to metabolic differences between different individuals...
> 
> - _Murphy_


Surely they can, where studies have been done? I'd imagine a study that looked at frequency of cancers in a population of smokers vs non-smokers, with relevant life-style and inheritance factors included as measured variables, could produce a numerical relationship between number of cigarettes smoked and average increase in risk of cancer. Of course, there would be no cut-off (no cancer below this number of cigarettes, always above it), but there would be a describable relationship. I imagine such studies have been done for tobacco, though I haven't checked, but presumably not yet for the JWHs. 

I wonder, and have no idea: is there no way of predicting the sort of relationship between dose received and risk of cancer that would be revealed empirically (by a study like the type I describe above) from the quantity and type of metabolites of a given candidate carcinogen? Didn't someone mention '1000 times as carcinogenic as tobacco'? Is that sort of quantitative estimate invalid?


----------



## MurphyClox

invert said:
			
		

> I wonder, and have no idea: _is there no way of predicting the sort of relationship between dose received and risk of cancer that would be revealed empirically_ (by a study like the type I describe above) from the quantity and type of metabolites of a given candidate carcinogen? Didn't someone mention '1000 times as carcinogenic as tobacco'? Is that sort of quantitative estimate invalid?*)



What I somehow wanted to say with my last post, and what's actually the answer to your question: Nope, that's not easily possible. I even doubt the calculations done for cigarette-smokers... The problem is that cancer involves _a lot_ of additional factors which can not be considered all at once, like:
- genetic predisposition
- individual differences in enzyme activities
- synergism with other consumed cancerogenics
- over-all lifestyle (stress, sleep pattern, etc.)
- frequency of application
- duration of application
- dosage upon a single application
- consumption of helpful substances (e.g. antioxidants)
...etc...

It's just not possible to give definite values. At most, you could provide tendencies or maybe _vague_ numbers, but I strongly doubt senseless statements like "1 cigarette takes 5 min of your life" (example taken from rainbow press) or "JWH-018 causes cancer when taken more than XYZ times".
The statement 'JWH-018 is ~1000 times as carcinogenic as tobacco' is not backed up by _*any*_ data known to me and I think it's downright pointless. Dunno who stated this nonsense (= stupid scaremongering deluxe). Therefore the above statement *) is not valid by any means!

Peace! _Murphy_


----------



## deep7

I am still wondering about the reliability of Mouse's JHW-018-ADME-study, not because of the data, but where is the intention behind this publication?

Who covered the costs of the study? I cannot imagine that there is someone who has the unselfish idea to make such an analysis just for fun.

What was Mouse's drive?


----------



## MurphyClox

Everybody here got his/her intentions to stay anonymous; I'm afraid. I'm curious in this respect, too, but the nature of things just does not allow for open discussion of this.

@deep7: Post more, get a Bluelighter-status and then ask mouse99 via PM. Maybe you get your answer that way... Just an idea.

YO! _Murphy_


----------



## sarbanes

hamhurricane said:


> the reasoning i hear for the safety of cannabinoids is that there are no CB receptor sites in the lower regions of the brain responsible for respiratory function, so what would the mechanism of death be???
> 
> also thats a pretty low toxic dose, it equates to a bit over 100mg for me, or less according to examine's figures, im amazed.




It's toxicity is not related to it's CB1 agonist properties.  Unrelated.


----------



## Jabberwocky

no source discussion here


----------



## CheshireSmile42

can we just talk the number game?  regardless of who or what it may be from.

no - nuke


----------



## Kenaz

illerrre said:


> Let's say jwh-018 would turn out to be very cancerinogenic. Would I run a high risk of getting cancer from smoking a maximum of 90mg over a year?



It depends on, in no particular order:


exactly how carcinogenic JWH-018 turned out to be
how genetically predisposed you were to various cancers
your level of exposure to other carcinogens
how those carcinogens interacted with JWH-018

To the best of my knowledge, we have no idea of the first or the fourth since there has not been enough research done on JWH-018's carcinogenicity or toxicity.  I don't have access to your family's health records going back several generations: neither do I have any idea of whether or not you are a cigarette smoker, have lived in buildings with crumbling asbestos insulation or over a toxic waste dump, etc. 

Short answer: I dunno.


----------



## sarbanes

actually let's not even hypothesize that, because it's probably not highly mutagenic, so therefore, probably not a heavy duty carcinogen.


----------



## Whatsamatau

*Solvernt candidates for JWH-018*

A question for you chemists out there.  I have lots of unburned product in a light bulb pipe.  What would be a good solvent to consolidate all of the product and evaporate off.  Would any of these commonly available solvents work?
IPA?
Ethanol?
Methanol?
Acetone?


----------



## Coolio

IPA and ethanol work if they are close to 90% or 100%.


----------



## ex-amine

Gaian Planes said:


> ime things with long half lives you can detect effects from longer than things with short half lives if you pay close attention.



NO NO NO NO.

don't make this mistake ( or read up on pharmacology) ,
For example : 
the LSD half life is very short , but the effect is long.
the half life of THC is very long but the effect is shorter.

it also depends on : 
if it's a silent agonist (or an antagonist)
deregulation of the receptor , 
you can have long term potentiation , 
you can have enhanced secondairy systems ,
and then there are different potentiation of autoreceptors.
and on...and on.. and on.

and then there are substances that have a different halftimes in the brain than wihin the body.

that's it for now.  

but......
......as a general rule you might use this.


----------



## MattPsy

Coolio said:


> I haven't read anything bad that didn't involve an overdose...



Yes, exactly.
Almost invariably they involve people being moronic and careless. (do we notice a similarity to other drugs perhaps here?)


----------



## ex-amine

here is one :

friend , age 34 , occasional weed smoker , 
vaporizes 1 mg of jwh-018 (yellow amber) on a labscale.
within 5 minutes this induces a panic attack so severe that a 
short hospitalation was required.

he never wants to touch this compound again.

your ex.


----------



## Hammilton

There's really no such thing as a panic attack so severe hospitalization is required.  There's only people who don't know how to help.


----------



## vecktor

Hammilton said:


> There's really no such thing as a panic attack so severe hospitalization is required.  There's only people who don't know how to help.



not everyone has benzos or similar available, hospitals on the other hand hospitals do.
it is not always possible to talk someone out of a panic attack, and there is a vicious circle of panic then physical symtoms caused by the panic which worsens the panic and with that much panic, the logic and rational is no longer going to work.


----------



## Hammilton

What is the efficacy of the talk down method?  It was my understanding (pretty sure I read this in the Journal of Psychoactive Drugs (formerly JO psychedelic drugs, IIRC) that it was more than 90% and the other 10% required only minimal intervention.  I might be mis-remembering things, though, of course.


----------



## BilZ0r

ex-amine said:


> NO NO NO NO.
> 
> don't make this mistake ( or read up on pharmacology) ,
> For example :
> the LSD half life is very short , but the effect is long.
> the half life of THC is very long but the effect is shorter.



PING...

While you're right in a general sense, i.e. one can imagine a drug that lasts for a long time with a short half-life, or even more likely, a drug which has a long half-life, but is short acting, you're examples are not correct.
The half-life of LSD is far longer than THC, Aghajanians Naval Study showed it to be 175 min, while Papac's more recent study showed it to be 5 hours, so averaged about 4 hours. Which fits perfectly.

THC has a v. short INITAL PLASMA half-life, esp. after smoking (Indeed, in rats, the plasma half-life of I.V. THC is less than 5 minutes). This is because it is sequestered into tissue very rapidly. The TERMINAL plasma half-life is very long, (up to 57 hours) as the THC is "drip fed" out of the tissue, but this is in levels far below the levels to get you high. i.e. The levels of THC that get you high leave you plasma with a half-life of approx 20 minutes. See review by Grotenhermen.

It is a very fair assumption that a drug with act with a similar time course to its plasma concentration (usually if you plot drug effect vs plasma concentration you get a circle, plasma concentration leads effect on the rising phase, but as the drug wains, the effect outlasts the plasma concentration).




Aghajanian, GK. and Bing, OHL. (1964). Persistence of lysergic acid diethylamide in the plasma of human subjects . Clin. Pharmacol. Ther. 5: 611–4.

Papac DI, Foltz RL (1990). Measurement of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) in human plasma by gas chromatography/negative ion chemical ionization mass spectrometry. J Anal Toxicol 14 (3): 189–90

Grotenhermen F. (2003) Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Cannabinoids. Clin Pharmacokinet 42 (4): 327-360


----------



## 8ft-Sativa

Is it water or fat soluble?

I want to try oral but need to know this first.

Regards


----------



## MurphyClox

8ft-Sativa said:


> Is it water or fat soluble?



WHAT?? JWH-018? Did you read the thread?  Or used the search engine?

JWH-018 is soluble in acetone and propan-2-ol. But I honestly hope that this was not the question...

- _Murphy_


----------



## Dcud53

The only time I consumed a spice product was spice diamond at a party, I had about 3-4 hits of it. Would there be any legitimate cause for me to worry here? I'm half tempted to schedule a full body physical and tell the doctor what happened. I'm 20 years old and the thought of smoking something that is thought to be extremely cancerous and have serious long term side effects is very very frighting. Am I over reacting, or is it that serious? I don't really do any drugs, only marijuana, and this is starting to look like it could have been the biggest mistake of my life.


----------



## muser

Dcud53 said:


> The only time I consumed a spice product was spice diamond at a party, I had about 3-4 hits of it. Would there be any legitimate cause for me to worry here? I'm half tempted to schedule a full body physical and tell the doctor what happened. I'm 20 years old and the thought of smoking something that is thought to be extremely cancerous and have serious long term side effects is very very frighting. Am I over reacting, or is it that serious? I don't really do any drugs, only marijuana, and this is starting to look like it could have been the biggest mistake of my life.



Dude, stop it, you're getting me really worried.


----------



## hamhurricane

Dcud53 said:


> The only time I consumed a spice product was spice diamond at a party, I had about 3-4 hits of it. Would there be any legitimate cause for me to worry here? I'm half tempted to schedule a full body physical and tell the doctor what happened. I'm 20 years old and the thought of smoking something that is thought to be extremely cancerous and have serious long term side effects is very very frighting. Am I over reacting, or is it that serious? I don't really do any drugs, only marijuana, and this is starting to look like it could have been the biggest mistake of my life.



skip the physical and save the money for a casket. 3-4 hits is more than enough to produce instant and irreversible cancer in 100% of users, if you had read this thread you would have known that a long time ago.


----------



## Hammilton

^  Yeah, he's totally right.  Do you have life insurance?  It's probably smart to get it now before you're diagnosed, before the tumors are just impossible to hide.


----------



## muser

Not funny guys. People are actually worried.


----------



## Hammilton

Jesus Christ, if you could read, you'd know what your risk is.  With very light use (maybe a few times a year), your risk is minimal- of cancer anyway.

Stomach bleeding or other non-CB1 mediated effects (which no one knows ANYTHING about) are possibilities that haven't been studied at all, but are certainly risks.  JWH-018 is quite similar to indomethacin, so it may be an NSAID, even still.


----------



## Holy_cow

Hammilton said:


> JWH-018 is quite similar to indomethacin, so it may be an NSAID, even still.



This is a very long shot.


----------



## Whatsamatau

Don't you know that if you follow all the rules and are really really good that you will never get cancer and live to be at least 100 years old.

Chill-out


----------



## bom

How about this?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/01/15/ddn011509bustweb.html




> "Space Diamond" and "Spice Artic Energy."





> Additional tests, however, showed the packets contained a synthetic drug called HU-210, which is 100 to 800 times more potent than natural THC.





oops...wrong place...can't delete..maybe someone can move this to right place


----------



## Limpet_Chicken

The actual brand name is 'arctic synergy'

There is another one out now as well, 'tropical synergy' (the same as yucatan fire? never tried that so I don't know)

I am rather sceptical about the claims of it containing HU-210 though, but it would make it tricky to detect without good equipment, due to tiny quantities needed, along with all the other crapola in there of course.

Hammy, I have noticed that spice (diamond, I haven't smoked much of the others apart from genii and smoke) rips my gizzards a new one unless I take it with antacids.

Then again, I am on indomethacin (actually saw its structure then asked my doc to switch me to it from diclofenac, as it set many cogs whirring in the ol' brain department)
And it doesn't cause me any awful gutsache, but YMMV.

Does the 5-substitution bind in the same place as the dimethylheptyl sidechain of HU-210/equivalent chain on plant-derived THCs? the structure of indomethacin looks to me like it might even make an active cannabinoid (indomethacin itself is a very weak CB1 agonist IIRC) if one were to tack on a butyl/pentyl/hexyl group at the indolic nitrogen....



Now to deal with the new(ish) two spice products, as luck would have it, something random made me decide to pay a visit to the local head shop and buy some of both the arctic synergy and tropical synergy.

Sooo...lets see what they have to offer, dust the faithful bong out and let her rip :D


----------



## Limpet_Chicken

Oh sweet fuck..... this is some potent shit, a single bong has pretty much incapacitated me, and the tropical synergy one, hits a lot quicker than diamond (is it now conclusively known what is in diamond, or these two? but the fact it hit whilst I was finishing the bong and almost completely destroyed me (no tolerance currently :D) makes me think it isn't JWH-018

If it is indeed found to be HU-210 I am damn well stockpiling it


----------



## Cirrus Domine

jwh-018 + weed + benzos + opium tea = very veryvery very very good


----------



## Hammilton

HU-210 is awfully sedating and long lasting.


----------



## muser

I found arctic synergy to be different compared to gold and diamond. The effects are more intense, more heady, less mongy, although shorter lasting it's a lot better. Probably a different cannabanoid.


----------



## Cirrus Domine

sorry if i should UTFSE, but is hu-210 or jwh-018 in spice diamond


----------



## Cirrus Domine

muser said:


> I found arctic synergy to be different compared to gold and diamond. The effects are more intense, more heady, less mongy, although shorter lasting it's a lot better. Probably a different cannabanoid.



i don't find spice diamond to last to long at all... and i'm on the above mentioned combo


----------



## Dcud53

Found this on Wikipedia:

Apparently, it was recently discovered in "Spice Gold" products in the United States. Over 100 pounds of material was found, but due to the high potency, only a small amount by weight was seized. This is possibly the first siezure of HU-210 in the US. Earlier, European tests have found Spice Gold to contain JWH-018, which independent analysis in the US has also found. This indicates that the manufacturer is lacing the material with various cannabinoids, possibly switching between them at will.

Interesting, wonder if they really switch between the two.


----------



## Drael

If the melatonin release that pot gives is replicated by these other CB agonists (not really sure bout this), melatonin at that dose is 99.9% anti-oxidant on cells in tests. 

Funny how theres a seizure in the US, i can never make any sense of their law, they seem to just apply it at will. These chemicals should be legal almost everywhere. Is marinol legal there?

What about endocannabinoids? If u bump ur knee while crossing the border do you get done for importing cannabis analogues ;P

Yeah, the land of the free, where they make up their law as they go!

All the while the big pharma companies play with stuff exactly like illegal drugs because of a few nice handshakes.

And will obama be any better or is it a draconian attitude of the people that gradually pushes you closer to drug war induced methamphetamine hell?


----------



## ungelesene_bettlek

Cirrus Domine said:


> sorry if i should UTFSE, but is hu-210 or jwh-018 in spice diamond


unfortunately, there is no reliable information yet which cannabinoids are exactly in "spice diamond". everything I can tell for sure is that the people from THCPharm have not tested this brand yet.


----------



## Hammilton

Dcud53 said:


> Found this on Wikipedia:
> 
> Apparently, it was recently discovered in "Spice Gold" products in the United States. Over 100 pounds of material was found, but due to the high potency, only a small amount by weight was seized. This is possibly the first siezure of HU-210 in the US. Earlier, European tests have found Spice Gold to contain JWH-018, which independent analysis in the US has also found. This indicates that the manufacturer is lacing the material with various cannabinoids, possibly switching between them at will.
> 
> Interesting, wonder if they really switch between the two.



Wow, first time something I've written has shown up on Bluelight...

I really should document my claims though.


----------



## Lupus

Just to chime in. 

I posted a thread about this somewhere else but i've experienced Akathisia from the combination of low dose D-AMP and Spice diamond and then replicated the effect two other times. Im well experienced with dexedrine and this is definetly not a side effect of it alone. It'll be interesting to see what the actual mode of action is for JWH-018 and why it would cause a side efffect similar to that of a neuroleptic.


----------



## hamhurricane

HU-210 looks very similar to THC, would it not qualify as an analog? I'm interesting the psyche deli allowed it to be released with the risk it would pose for US customers,  its also interesting because prior to this discovery people thought Spice only contained indole based cannabinoids, so whoever seized the Spice did so illegally, am i wrong?


----------



## Coolio

US Customs & Border Patrol seized the Spice. They have every right to inspect the contents of and do analytical testing on just about anything that crosses the border. 

Initial reports were that Psyche Deli did not want their products shipped to the US because they would not be legal there.

HU-210 is considered Schedule I by the CBP.


----------



## Drael

^ The same products have also been analysed by a company specialising in cannabinoid research........using methods that found a result that had escaped all previous analysis.....

I dont trust the fda "result" one bit personally - even if it was an independant research group, all results demand replication...its called science.


----------



## bcuzZ

spiegel.de about the ingredients of spice ( for those of you who speak german )

they have found  CP-47,497 as the main active compound of spice..


----------



## psood0nym

^Google's translation for English reader's convenience:


> BKA identified the main ingredient
> 
> Not herbal essence, not Räuchermischung: In the fashion drug Spice stuck synthetic cannabinoids, so far no laboratory has discovered. It reported the Bundeskriminalamt - and warns again before overdosing and addiction.
> 
> Fashion Spice drug is stronger and even more unpredictable than marijuana and hashish effect. The drug contains as the main ingredient is the synthetic cannabinoid CP-47497 ", as the Federal Criminal Police Office in Wiesbaden on Monday announced. This substance resembles the main ingredient of the cannabis plant, THC, but have a lot higher pharmacological potency.
> 
> So far mostly as a sole active ingredient called Spice substance "JWH-018" was in joint investigations of BKA and the University of Freiburg Institute of Legal Medicine, only in some samples in low concentrations have been found, investigators said. Only in other Spice-like herb mixtures was "JWH-018" as the main ingredient has been included. SPIEGEL ONLINE had already last December on the research of a Frankfurt pharmaceutical company reported that JWH-018 was identified.
> 
> "The high efficacy of the synthetic cannabinoids, as well as the uneven distribution of active ingredients in the herbal mixtures carry the risk of overdose after smoking Spice and similar products," warned the Bundeskriminalamt. The addictive nature is at least comparable to that of cannabis. In addition, through the combustion process when smoking and redeployment of the substances in the body of potentially toxic and carcinogenic products are formed.
> 
> With current tests can not be verified
> The federal government had already announced the end of December, production, trade and possession of drug ban fashion. Previously, this was already in Switzerland and the Netherlands. According to the Federal Drug Officers Bätzing will Sabine Federal Health Minister Ulla Schmidt (SPD) a Eilverordnung Narcotics Act to sign. "This is Spice from circulation," said Bätzing. Bundestag and the Bundesrat must be within one year a long-term ban on the launch.
> 
> Officially, Spice as "Räuchermischung to Beduften of spaces traded. On the Internet and in so-called head shops, finds it hot cakes.
> 
> The effect of Spice is euphoria and enthemmend first, then as müdemachend described. Consumers are ultimately "zugedröhnt". With the current drug testing Spice is not detectable.
> The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment was initially not able to explain why it is similar to a glittering effect comes when the smoke inhaled by Spice. Because it took place in the shiny metallic bags a "mixture of eight different plants" with picturesque names like lion's tail Siberian, Indian Warrior or blue lotus flower.


----------



## Ununnilium

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this but anyways...

I accidentally saw a vial that had contained a solution of JWH-018 dissolved in acetone under a blacklight and it seemed to glow quite visibly. After this I tested if the powder itself would be fluoroscent and it was glowing visibly as well!

An interesting note I'd say. I would like to hear if this is the case with other supposed JWH-018 powders. 

This might be a simple test to verify the substance in some circumstances.


----------



## Pomzazed

^
I'm not surprised as many hydrocarbon glows in black light, especially ones with aromatic rings or conjugate pi system. Which JWH's all have!

But nice observation anyway


----------



## FriendlyToker

*JWH-018 solubility*

Is JWH-018 water, fat or alcohol soluble? Which one works best, and what temperatures should I avoid while doing an extraction?

Why am I asking: I'm thinking of making Smoke / Genie / any other blend tea or hot chocolate. Would be nice to drink such drink in the evening. I tried Spice Diamond + Smoke 50:50, used about 4 pinches. Four hours of waiting, just to experience a fully blazed, almost psychedelic experience. Diamond is not good. I want to try it with pure Smoke or Genie, as they are the best. Some report 2-3h onset and 6-7 hours of fun, when used as tea.
Will try it and report.


----------



## vecktor

FriendlyToker said:


> Is JWH-018 water, fat or alcohol soluble?


both alcohol and fat soluble.


> Which one works best, and what temperatures should I avoid while doing an extraction?


high ones.

cmon this is not advanced, there is already at least on thread on solubility,

there is a whole pile of shit in spice and genie and the others which will also be extracted.


----------



## nuke

Merging...


----------



## O JMASTA R

Hey so I've read and searched as much as I can throughout these forums and although there are postings on the legal status of JWH-018 I couldn't find anything (regarding it's legal status) as of 2009.  After further searching the DEA website I found this in the Chemicals of Concern's sections
 heres the link http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/spice/spice_jwh018.htm

I just want someone else's perspective who's had experience ordering this in the United States; have you had many successful shipments?  HAs anyone in hear ever heard of an type of prosecution at all?


----------



## O JMASTA R

**To further specify my question:
Experience ordering meaning you've had multiple(or one just specify if its a single) successful deliveries in 2009?


----------



## morphene

What part of the dea saying it's legal do you not understand? Who would make a case against you? The FDA for the unapproved personal use of a supplement?  Perhaps Health & Human Safty for not wearing proper protection devices while handling a dangerous chemical? If you're getting a kilo and selling it can I be on retainer to give legal advice?

** To further specify my answer:
What the hell are you on about? Are you sure you wouldn't like the weight of each package, the country of origin and the week number of each shipment as well?


----------



## bradoi

Just tried this a couple of days ago. Very similar to good old weed, and yet not quite... Probably in part because it lacks the ritual preparation of the joint/pipe and the taste/smell of the smoke... 

Also it was very strange that the effects didn't taper off like with regular weed, but just pretty much disappeared abruptly. High as fuck for a couple of hours, and then suddenly - stone cold sober... Probably because of that I had a strong urge to redose - much stronger than with bud...


----------



## IvanRu

Hey all!
Sorry for my english ..)) Give what you can mix with JWH-018 to get a waxy mass (say balls to 5 mg) ... pure JWH crumbly. Thank you!


----------



## chester mcgruder

Does anyone know if JWH-018 can be used in an electronic cigarette? These work by vaping a propylene glycol and nicotine mixture. I think the vape temp of nicotine is 302 F. Is this too low to vape jwh-018? Is jwh-018 soluble in propylene glycol? Is it possible dissolve jwh-018 in anythingthat would safely vape in an electronic cigarette?


----------



## vecktor

am I the only one to notice that the level of discussion has degraded to inane twitterings?

Dissolving stuff is hardly advanced discussion, stop expecting spoon feeding do some fucking experimentation.


----------



## chester mcgruder

vecktor said:


> am I the only one to notice that the level of discussion has degraded to inane twitterings?
> 
> Dissolving stuff is hardly advanced discussion, stop expecting spoon feeding do some fucking experimentation.



That's a great response from a mod on a harm reduction forum. In case you haven't noticed jwh-018 is fairly new. There isn't much I can find on solubilty besides acetone. You are an asshole and dangerous.  Thanks for the help. I thought trying to use jwh-018 in an electronic cigarette was advanced. I was unable to find anyone who even attempted anything like that. Sorry to annoy you. Asshole.


----------



## Holy_cow

^You should be banned for flinging insults at people. And I agree to vector, this forum has degraded from ADD - Advanced Drug Discussion to MDD - Moronic Drug Discussion. Unfortunately, the mods are not doing their job and keep the level of this forum at Advanced by deleting, moving or closing the moronic threads/posts which flood this forum.


----------



## nuke

Hey now.


----------



## chester mcgruder

Holy_cow said:


> ^You should be banned for flinging insults at people. And I agree to vector, this forum has degraded from ADD - Advanced Drug Discussion to MDD - Moronic Drug Discussion. Unfortunately, the mods are not doing their job and keep the level of this forum at Advanced by deleting, moving or closing the moronic threads/posts which flood this forum.



My question was what could jwh-018 be dissolved in that would safely vaporize. If that question is inappropriate for this forum he should have said so. Instead he was rude, hostile, and gave dangerous advice. He basically told me to go try vaporizing jwh-018 dissovled in solvemts of my choosing. That is not harm reduction at all. Bluelight is a harm reduction website,. I posted looking for harm reduction advice. If the ADD section isn't going to abide by this premise, mabye Bluelight is the wrong forum for this section. I completely stand by my other post that his actions are irresponsible and dangerous. If this is how he normally responds to questions that he thinks are in the wrong section he shouldn't be a mod. I will wait for an apology and if the mods choose to ban me for responding with equal hostility go ahead. That's all I am going say abouty this.


----------



## lineartransform

Bluelight is a harm reduction forum - and many other things.

If you are at the point where you are ordering research chemicals, weighing them and dosing them appropriately, and considering interesting and novel methods of administration - you are assumed to be beyond basic harm reduction.

In short, your question was in the terrible cusp between sheer incompetence (in which harm reduction and hand holding will occur because people have figured it out already) and research (where people simply don't know).

Frankly, if you're bright enough to consider suspending jwh-018 in solution, you damn well better be able to figure out what solvents will be toxic and appropriate for your application. One of those things where if you can't do that, the rest of the project is pretty much fucked anyways.

What do you want? Someone to give you a long list of potential solvents, screened for toxicity, viscocity, and boiling point? You asked an advanced question where knowledge is limited, and assumed that magically people would know - and then got upset when people didn't know.

Sometimes you just have to do the work yourself.


----------



## LawnChairSkank

If this question isn't allowed feel free to delete this post, I couldn't find anything about price's in the rules. Thanks

falls under vendor discussion and is certainly not ADD - nuke


----------



## Hammilton

chester mcgruder said:


> My question was what could jwh-018 be dissolved in that would safely vaporize. If that question is inappropriate for this forum he should have said so. Instead he was rude, hostile, and gave dangerous advice. He basically told me to go try vaporizing jwh-018 dissovled in solvemts of my choosing. That is not harm reduction at all. Bluelight is a harm reduction website,. I posted looking for harm reduction advice. If the ADD section isn't going to abide by this premise, mabye Bluelight is the wrong forum for this section. I completely stand by my other post that his actions are irresponsible and dangerous. If this is how he normally responds to questions that he thinks are in the wrong section he shouldn't be a mod. I will wait for an apology and if the mods choose to ban me for responding with equal hostility go ahead. That's all I am going say abouty this.



You're an idiot.  An absolute newb giving lectures about harm reduction?

Harm reduction doesn't justify posting your retarded drivel here.  This forum is ADD if you aren't aware.  It used to be that we could suggest that you take a look at the other threads in this forum, but you'd be wasting your time these days.

BDD is where solubility questions go.  They're obviously not advanced, even if the chemical is new.

This has absolutely nothing to do with harm reduction.


----------



## morphene

Oleamide



everhopeful said:


> - One such inclusion that I thought was obvious but nobody ever got was Oleamide. I would welcome the expert opinion on this one please. It is used in two mixes that I know of, and before anyone gets upset about it's use as a lubricant etc remember it's endogenous capacity as well as it's extensive, long history in the food additive industry, although maybe that industry is not such a good example.



Did anyone have any thoughts about Oleamide? It's apparently in three blends with JWH-018 and someone just posted a picture from Shulgin's lab from a few weeks ago of a bottle of oleamide with chillin xxx then hand written on the label:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=430691 ...link broken. probably from a pruned thread..

That also has a link to more pictures from his lab. Anyway everhopeful is the second guy i've read discussing the potential of synergy between oleamide and jwh-018, i quote the other one in the link.

There is stuff published about it. Otto Snow was interviewed in the final entheogen review published two months ago. He talks about oleamide in it but it's not online - has anyone read it? Also this article had more but I can't get more than the abstract myself: _"G. A. Thakur, S. P. Nikas, A. Makriyannis. CB1 cannabinoid receptor ligands. Mini Reviews in Medicinal Chemistry 2005"_ 

It's also described as being patented for mood and sleep disorders. But it's a lubricant? Is there a story here?


----------



## Hammilton

Maybe, but I wouldn't expect any sort of activity smoked.


----------



## knottyone

what are the health risks of jwh-018 vs cp55940?


----------



## Spaced OuT

lol JHW-018 is not that bad for ya! and smoking spice is weak.
smoke the pure 018 powder, 10MG, standerd dose for me


----------



## joner

Hey everyone,
Has anyone tried out jwh018 net? They seem to be givin away free samples of jwh018, just wonderin if anyone knew what it was like and what their prices where like?

Peace


----------



## Spaced OuT

joner said:


> Hey everyone,
> Has anyone tried out jwh018 net? They seem to be givin away free samples of jwh018, just wonderin if anyone knew what it was like and what their prices where like?
> 
> Peace



They stopped doing it ages ago, 
but it was legit. 
i think it was ehither the amber king or the white fluffy one 8)


----------



## chester mcgruder

joner said:


> Hey everyone,
> Has anyone tried out jwh018 net? They seem to be givin away free samples of jwh018, just wonderin if anyone knew what it was like and what their prices where like?
> 
> Peace



You should know, you obviously work for them. I have seen this same post on every jwh thread that comes up if you search for it on google.


----------



## GTnV

I have 2 months and 2000mg worth of experience with this substance. The first gram had a burnt orange tint to  with a weak, but noticeable, chemical smell. The second gram was a very white color and had a strong chemical smell. The white tinted batch was very noticeably more potent per mg. My starting dosage was 3mg measured on an accurate .000 scale. Before trying JWH-018, I had a lot of experience with the Spice and Galaxy smoking blends which have been found to contain this substance. I had been clean of marijuana for 9 months before trying pure 018.

My first several experiences were with 3mg smoked. This was quite an intense marijuana like experience, with some unique differences. The onset for me takes what seems to be exactly 5 minutes, and all the effects come at once. Effects seem to diminish completely after around 1 hour,  with no lingering after effects. I never experienced feelings of panic until I increased the dosage above 7mg for the first time. After a couple of weeks though, I was unable to get any type of panic or side effects no matter what dosage I smoked. Tolerance will definitely build, but for me it seemed to get to a point at which it leveled out. 5mg smoked, even after nearly 60 days of daily use, still will provide effects that are IMO better than marijuana and much less subtle.

The largest amount I have smoked is 25mg. I have done this several times after my tolerance seemed to level out. Even at this high dosage (I've never heard of anyone smoking this much), I noticed no negative effects. I also noticed no respiratory symptoms throughout my experience with this chemical.

I have also experienced this chemical orally. My first experiences were with 10mg dissolved in distilled H2O. The onset took ~30 mintues, with effects peaking around the 40 minute mark. The oral duration for me was around 2 hours. I would recommend oral ingestion to anyone who is panic prone due to the much more gentle onset and a slightly less intense peak. My maximum oral dosage was 50mg. This was near the intensity of 25mg smoked, with a much longer duration.

Around the 30 day mark of my 018 use, I began to smoke marijuana again. Combining these two substances is absolute cannabinoid bliss. I definitely noticed cross tolerance issues between marijuana and 018. 

Always start with low dosages, know your body, listen to what it is telling you. If anyone has any questions about 018, feel free to ask me . Stay safe BL!


----------



## Chainer

^^ Good advice and thanks for that bit.  I would recommend measuring for 2MG and going from there.


----------



## In_A_Transit

My question is how do you guys go around smoking this? What methods do you use


----------



## GTnV

The best way I've found is to use a glass vaporization pipe. The kind people use for meth/crack/dmt and similar that has a glass bulb on the end you hold a flame under. It works great though just putting it on top of some ash or your herb of choice in a regular pipe. I've even sprinkled it in blunts and joints.


----------



## In_A_Transit

So if I put it on top of some of my tobacco then light the bowl up wouldn't the jwh-018 burn?


----------



## Spaced OuT

Just put some ash as a bed or some herbs before putting the powder in your bowl. 

for me, 6mg did nothing. this was after a T break of 1 week.

Normaly 45mg, single shot pipe is nice for me. i like the feeling.

If you don't like smoking powders or anything. just spray some on some herbs.


----------



## bob_arctor

It might be useful for other people people to note that either Spaced OuT is a hardhead for sure, or the user has sub-standard material. 45 mg will be WAY to much for the majority of people.


----------



## Spaced OuT

bob_arctor said:


> It might be useful for other people people to note that either Spaced OuT is a hardhead for sure, or the user has sub-standard material. 45 mg will be WAY to much for the majority of people.


Yes matey i can understand you.
4mg for most people will make them red eyed and monged.
10mg would be a really strong high for someone with no tollerence.
25mg, would indeed be one of thos chest bleeding feel you would get with no experience.


----------



## GTnV

Spaced OuT said:


> Just put some ash as a bed or some herbs before putting the powder in your bowl.
> 
> for me, 6mg did nothing. this was after a T break of 1 week.
> 
> Normaly 45mg, single shot pipe is nice for me. i like the feeling.
> 
> If you don't like smoking powders or anything. just spray some on some herbs.



Was yours orange or white? Sounds like you had a weak or cut batch. 45mg will destroy you. Anyone else smoke any out of that bag?

I've heard reports of one vendor who was selling 073 as 018 for a while (requires a higher dose) before they realized it.... that's one thing I hate about not synthing this stuff myself. How long was the high lasting for you?


----------



## d00ber

*re*

swim knows 
that the pure stuff was white and 10mg is a good MAx if based off anything
feels like the first 5 minutes after you wake n baked a bit too much...aka a comeup
orally makes you heavy like weed, like wanting to sit reclined and space out, relaxn
this forums bout safety so i gotta put in my 2 cents please start with a sub 5mg dose
words for if you do take to much, stay awake and remember the anxiety is because you only think you made a mistake. and no coffee before. 
it also seems that this drug gets pushed to the back of the line(like matabolism shit) if your kidneys are working on other things.....

DEFINITE recommend for first step before quitting smoking weed

any seconds?


----------



## ex-amine

to Spaced Out :
the first batch you had was probably Jwh-018 (orange)
and the second batch was probably JwH-073 (white).
45mg is waaaaaayy too high for 018 without inducing panic attacks ,
but on 073 it will be managable.

Greetings, your ex.


----------



## cegli

Yeah, I have to warn people to start with 1mg and wait for 10 minutes until redosing.  I had the worst night of my life and horrible panic attacks from 2mg.  Be careful with JWH-018, it's worth working your way up.


----------



## emarr

Looking forward to hearing more about the red vs. yellow vs. white products, I've seen all different types of this stuff online. Haven't seen any locally but I'm sure I will eventually and I don't wanna smoke crap if it does come around...


----------



## gezgin

Ah Jesus what's all this? Is this stuff in Spice, Spice Gold and Spice Diamond? I smoked that shit every day, multiple times per day for a damn year


----------



## Coolio

It was in Spice, but it wasn't the only synthetic cannabinoid found in Spice. There is even speculation that the Spice products have had their actual ingredients change over time.


----------



## Chainer

emarr said:


> Looking forward to hearing more about the red vs. yellow vs. white products, I've seen all different types of this stuff online. Haven't seen any locally but I'm sure I will eventually and I don't wanna smoke crap if it does come around...



White is the best but offwhite is common.  It almost looks colorless when it is close to pure


----------



## theotherside

I have a gram of jwh-018.....how the hell do I smoke 2mg's? I have a mg scale but it looks like a few grains of salt. Do I need a crack pipe or something?


----------



## Coolio

For best results you need an 'oil burner' pipe, aka a meth pipe, or a DMT pipe. They're like $15 online at a plenty of headshops.

There's really no point in weighing out doses of JWH-018 in my opinion. Maybe see how much 5mg looks like so you know what's a definite overdose, but then really you want to try to start by taking an eyeballed initial dose of 250 micrograms or so. If you have fluffy white JWH-018, that is going to actually be quite visible, but if you have an amber dense rocky JWH-018 it's going to look like some fine dust created by shaving a piece of a grain of salt. That way if you accidentally take that 5mg pile and try to eyeball 1/20th of it, but you end up really off and put a whole 1000 micrograms (1mg) in the pipe by accident, you still aren't going to overdose.

Another thing is that by the end of a gram of JWH-018, smoked in the same pipe and never washed with acetone, the insides of the glass are going to be coated in a thick translucent yellow layer of condensed JWH-018. You can't really measure doses accurately anymore, as you're vaporizing not just what you load in the pipe but also an unmeasured amount of the condensed JWH-018 oil still stuck in the pipe near where the flame is.


----------



## Doctor_Ew420

I recently got a gram of JWH-018... it is pure white tiny crystals, more like a powder and I got it from the famous site being used right now.

I have been smoking pot daily for years... I have begun smoking a small mountain about the size of this -O- maybe twice that size.

either the famous site sent me less than I ordered OR.... I smoked 200mg in 30 hours.


----------



## bradoi

Doctor_Ew420 said:


> I smoked 200mg in 30 hours.



Jeebus! 

Either you have insanely high tolerance or maybe you got -073 instead of -018... And even then, 200mg in such a short time... wow... 

Or, of course, it might have been bunk...


----------



## Volcano

Since JWH seems to be cross tolerant in marijuana users, especially heavy ones, I wouldn't doubt 200mg in 30 hours to be impossible.  I, myself, smoke 4 or 5 times a day.


----------



## Doctor_Ew420

Yeah, I have literally not missed a day of pot smoking in at least 2 years, I smoke on average 10 grams a week to myself... and even some weeks I run low. I am addicted to marijuana no doubt, even though that sounds weak and ignorant. I am.

Take into account, I have been sharing with my girlfriend hit for hit, and a buddy had a hit... but when I was dividing the bag of powder (on a 0.01g scale) I realized I only had roughly 800mg at the 30 hour mark.

I have no idea what amount of mg I have been smoking, but I am eyeballing properly. The stuff gets me higher than any weed I have smoked in the last 6 months or so, but it cuts out after about an hour or so. I don't really think that eyeballing this chemical is so scary when it comes to daily-for years type users. I haven't really experienced any strong anxiety (no more than with lots of pot) with this chemical either.

This is a long shot, but my measurement method is a "sea monkey's" food scoop. If anyone is familiar with those weighing spoons for creepy seaa creature food, then you know how much I am smoking.

I just want to know if the most popular JWH supplier ripped me off really.


----------



## egor

I've now completely given up on JWH-018, even in conjunction with alprazolam or clonazepam. Its too damn prone to cause panic attacks for my taste. I have had less than half a dozen non-drug induced panic attacks in my entire life and am not overly prone to anxiety; except where JWH-018 is involved. I gave what was left of my gram (close to 850mg) to a friend hoping he will have better luck with it than me. JWH-073 on the other hand is exquesite...


----------



## whatifit

Swim wonders what would occur if jwh-018 was added to essential oil of cannabis(thc free vapor extract containing the turpines and whatnot) could be used as psychoactive cologne or applied and let dried on some other carrier herb or some kind of cream for transdermal application


----------



## lonaburhwnia

never heard of Jwh-018 im google it


----------



## theotherside

Thanks a bunch for your help coolio. I tried about a 1 milligram earlier and still feel amazing. I can see where even a slight overdose could cause a panic attack, but used very very carefully it is fantastic. It feels alot different than the "blends" that I've used. It seems to be alot more visual, in sense that even just looking at my computer screen to type, deep patterns and distant colors form. Another plus is the music appreciation is just as good if not better than THC.


----------



## Doctor_Ew420

I don't like JWH-018... I know I got pure stuff, and I thought it was under weight when I got it... but I was wrong. 

I have tried a few dozen times with this chemical. It is just not like marijuana. For someone who has smoked daily for more than 2 years, it just won't be the same.

I am warning serious pot heads, people who go through half an ounce per week, JWH-018 will be a total waste of time for you. Not to mention you will be introducing a new chemical to your body, rather than staying with the tried and true.

I enjoyed my first few doses, but after getting used to it, I realized it is hardly comparable to a good cannabis high. Also, since I am so tolerant to cannabinoids, I am apparently fully tolerant to its agonists and partial agonists. I realized that if I smoked what a dose should be for me, I will get effects, but they aren't too much like getting stoned on pot, similar I suppose, but just not the same. If I double that dose, it feels even less like pot with a side of anxiety. 

By the way I have gone through this stuff, I have smoked 20mg at once at least a few times... this causes some mild anxiety, and it gets me high... yes... but not like good cannabis.

I warn all serious cannabis connoisseurs... JWH-018 isn't even worth the simple $89 per gram it is sold for (and yes mine is white, powdery crystals, and it shiiines, it also tastes like DMT when smoked) 

It is safe to say I will not be buying any more of this shit. And no... before anyone says it... I didn't get the JWH-073.


----------



## Coolio

Doctor_Ew420, I disagree wholeheartedly. There are some strains of cannabis that I much prefer to JWH-018, but I like the JWH-018 high more than a majority of cannabis I've ever tried. JWH-073, also a great high but I'd probably prefer a great many kinds of pot to JWH-073.


----------



## Doctor_Ew420

Coolio said:


> Doctor_Ew420, I disagree wholeheartedly. There are some strains of cannabis that I much prefer to JWH-018, but I like the JWH-018 high more than a majority of cannabis I've ever tried. JWH-073, also a great high but I'd probably prefer a great many kinds of pot to JWH-073.



Coolio, do you smoke weed everyday for years? have you gotten really used to the subtilties and warmness of marijuana? 

I have... and when turning to JWH-018 as a substitute... it just isnt it... if I had no weed at all... I would smoke some JWH and be somewhat satisfied... but it just isn't like weed to me, it gets me stoned.... just not properly.


----------



## whatifit

swim uses in conjunct with cannabis to make my weekly half o to last


----------



## Doctor_Ew420

I was using it with marijuana, and that was the best way to do it... I would smoke several bongs of weed, and then one with a pretty regular sized dose of JWH... followed by at least one more bong to get rid of the taste of the JWH.

This would make my 4 bongs of weed feel like 6 bongs of weed... with a weird mechanical feeling attached to it... but still, this was the best way to do it if you ask me.


----------



## Coolio

Doctor_Ew420 said:


> Coolio, do you smoke weed everyday for years? have you gotten really used to the subtilties and warmness of marijuana?



Yes, I'm a cannabis connoisseur, and I love a good indica high or hash high, but I don't always have ready access to the best kinds of weed. So, I've tried a lot of mids and commercial sensimilla over the years, random assortments of homegrown picked up at events and festivalsw as well, as the occasional strain from a CA dispensary while on vacation or whatever. For me, the pentyl and butyl naphthoylindoles when vaporized compare favorably to a LOT of cannabis strains and preparations I've tried.


----------



## JimiHawK*

Doctor_Ew420 said:


> I warn all serious cannabis connoisseurs... JWH-018 isn't even worth the simple $89 per gram it is sold for (and yes mine is white, powdery crystals, and it shiiines, it also tastes like DMT when smoked)





dude, i dont think thats 018. The purest i've had (99.7% i think?) is a light yellow flaky substance, a bit like shiny earwax that melts into a clear yellow puddle and leaves little/no residue when vap'd in a lightbulb (tho after repeated use it does darken up)


i've also been using weed for quite a while (a lot longer than i probably shouldve lol) and although there is a difference with 018, its nothing major and i would happily smoke the shit all day everyday (which is what ended up happening lol) if it wasnt for the nasty plastic buildup i got at the back of my throat. And the taste - ughhh (a lot of my friends couldnt even taste it tho hrmm)


----------



## Delta-9-THC

There has already been some of discussion on this. I posted a thread about the color of 018 in PD a few weeks ago. There have been many different batches of -018. Pure 018 should be white or off white. I have both 073 and 018 which are both a white powder and they exhibit noticeable differences in effects and dosages so I am certain that I have what I paid for.


----------



## Mariposa

This obviously applies only to the people who have not read or are ignoring Rule #1 of Bluelight:

*Sourcing, even of legal or quasi-legal compounds is prohibited on Bluelight.*

That means *do not try to sell JWH-018 in this or any thread;* and
*do not attempt to buy JWH-018 in this or any thread.*

I expect this is now (again) clear.


----------



## righteous nod

JWH is my initals.  sweet.


----------



## sha_doh

Cool my first post.
I have been researching the various RC's that are cannabinoid like.  There are so many variations chemically, and different reactions both physically and emotionally that i have read both here and from the Erowid Vaults.  I am just curious on which to try first.  I smoke MJ at least once a day and where i am its cost prohibitive to smoke as much as id like.  I would like to be able to stretch what i have.  I have gone through the trouble of getting my supplies before i get my RC.  Scale, ETOH, etc.  Ive seen a way to use cigarette papers  that have been soaked with an appropriate amount of jwh.  I use a vaporizer for the MJ and is this the best method for JWH consumption or dissolved and administered sublingually?  Added to alcohol and taken orally?  Most of the posts have been pyrolized, does this affect the overal potency or decrease the length of intoxication? and vice versa if taken lingually/orally does that lengthen the period of intoxication?  Thanks for all your input.


----------



## BiG StroOnZ

sha_doh said:


> I am just curious on which to try first... or dissolved and administered sublingually?



1) JWH-073 

2) I usually oral dose, around 10-25 mg


----------



## junglist15

anyone tried the new jwh-200 yet?


----------



## mandalaman

I'm going to have random dt's over the next few months. As a regular marijuana user for the past two years, i won't lie, losing that kind of leaves a gaping hole. Is it really a good cb receptor agonist? I wouldnt mind having something to partake in using occasionally in it's abscence, and i just want to know if it's worth it. 

thanks!


----------



## BiG StroOnZ

mandalaman said:


> i just want to know if it's worth it.



I'm not planning on smoking Cannabis again until I'm able to grow my own plants. With that being said, I actually prefer it over Cannabis now  

It's the perfect replacement.


----------



## mandalaman

really? that good? i've read a whole bunch of people say the same thing. i mean of course i'll miss the smell and taste of buds, but having a safe substitute that's actually worth it wouldnt be bad. what do you think a good dosage of it is?


----------



## BiG StroOnZ

^I only dose orally, at least until I perfect the art of making my own "smoking blend" (jwh-xxx sprayed onto herbs and then dried)

I'd say anywhere between 15-30mg (orally) for JWH-073, and with JWH-018, I would be careful because of it being much more potent than -073; so maybe start with 5-10mg and work your way up. Also, a lot depends on your tolerance with Cannabis though, because their is a cross tolerance with Cannabis and these Cannabinoids. When I switched over to JWH-xxx I was on a 6-7 month break from Cannabis, so my tolerance is still low.


----------



## bradoi

If you have a low tolerance, 5-10mg of -018 will fuck you up royally... careful with that stuff


----------



## Cloudy

I have a question about cannabinoids, warfarin, and the CYP2C9 protein.  I've read that cannabinoids are CYP2C9 substrates, along with warfarin.  How do they interact?  I don't see how consuming cannabinoids will alter the hypoprothrombinemic response to warfarin. Cannabinoids don't inhibit or induce, so how does cannabinoids interact with warfarin, as stated earlier in this thread at some point?


----------



## emoduckie

From my experience, the white shit is pure, and the rusty shit is not.
PM me for details if you are interested.


----------



## junglist15

has anyone tried the  new Jwh-200 yet?


----------



## PineappleExpress

hey fellas, SWIM here needs some help clarifying with legality issues locally. SWIM went to local drug enforcement website, got hold of the schedule, and says "Cannabinol. Cannabinol derivatives. Cannabis and cannabis resin." under SCHEDULE I, SWIM understands this part  though, at the end of the page, it does say this "For the purposes of this Schedule —"cannabinol derivatives" means the following substances, namely tetrahydro derivatives of cannabinol and their carboxylic acid derivatives, and 3-alkyl homologues of cannabinol or its tetrahydro derivatives; "preparation" means a mixture, solid or liquid, containing a controlled drug;"

Does this affect JWH-018? From what SWIM understood so far (from research and SWIM's limited understanding of the english language), it doesn't affect JWH-018 since it is not a cannabinol/cannabinoid, but acts as one? Plus, it's synthetic, and doesn't have the substances stated? (SWIM searched for "pentyl" "naphthoyl" "indole" in the list, no results) Obvously SWIM doesn't want to be in any trouble with local laws, clarifications regarding the information posted are appreciated and SWIM isn't too sure about what SWIM thinks so SWIM'd like someone knowlegdable to confirm/dispute what SWIM said


----------



## hugo24

Fuck the SWIM once and for all man!!!!!


----------



## Coolio

No, JWH-* have no structural similarity and are not derived from cannabinol or THC. They're not illegal anywhere in the USA.


----------



## PineappleExpress

Thing is, I'm not from the US.  Abusers here jailed, dealers hung. So I just wanna make sure ey


----------



## Coolio

You will be arrested for possession of white baggies of powder in any jurisdiction. They aren't going to believe you that it's not cocaine. You're going to have to hire a lawyer and maybe take the case to trial and win to get out of charges.

Despite it being legal, you can still be prosecuted for possession of an illegal drug until proven innocent.


----------



## PineappleExpress

damn. well let's just pray delivery goes smooth then (receiving via post) and im not gon' snort it or w/e, prolly gonna infuse it to some herbs  thanks for the reply anyway


----------



## Anonabyss

Coolio said:


> You will be arrested for possession of white baggies of powder in any jurisdiction. They aren't going to believe you that it's not cocaine. You're going to have to hire a lawyer and maybe take the case to trial and win to get out of charges.
> 
> Despite it being legal, you can still be prosecuted for possession of an illegal drug until proven innocent.



I'm not sure where you're from or what locations you are suggesting this applies to, but it's worth noting that this most definitely does _not_ apply to the United States. Unless they were to pull the analog act (and I'd be surprised if the federal government prosecuted you for possession of a personal amount of an analog), there would be no case for possession of an unscheduled drug and you would be off the hook as soon as they see it isn't an illegal chemical.


----------



## Coolio

Uh. What does a "case" have to do with being arrested? Police officers arrest people; on the spot. If a police officer finds a small white baggy of powder on your person, it doesn't matter WHAT the label says on it, they're going to lie to you and say it field tested positive for cocaine or heroin and arrest you for possession. They have no incentive to properly test the substance. That's your problem.

You will be required to prove your innocence in a court of law at a later date and time. I hope you have bail money.

If a police officer makes a bad arrest, you can still spend months in jail waiting on a trial if you can't afford bail and a proper lawyer.


----------



## PineappleExpress

i'd like to report my experience. i successfully infused jwh into 50g of marshmallow leaves with acetone. took 2hours to dry, and couldnt wait to test it - so i crushed a pinch and saw if it had juice/acetone smell. no smell, no juice, so i put some into my cone, and took 2 hits

after 1 minute, i am proper baked. and effect has been going on for an hour strong. even saw cartoon-like uhm "glow" when i was moving my hands...


----------



## Coolio

Where do you get marshmallow leaves?


----------



## PineappleExpress

i bought off a herbal website... or you can get em off e-bay


----------



## xxsicknessxx

I just tried some. First time I didn't get as high as I thought I shoud so i packed bowl and put it on the top of it. I smoaked the entire thing and the next thing i know im not moving for 5 hours but everything else is moving. I never been so high. I used a bunch more times, its just a clean high lasts a long time. I like it. works well with weed. *just my thoughts* just don't over do it. Its over powering lucky I was able to .. keep cool.


----------



## marione

it is a online pharmacy thing ?
never heard in the streetz


----------



## 10YR AA Gone

Can this be ingested?

Is it effective if put into a capsule and what is the recommended dose for oral consumption?


----------



## psycho_doc

_JWH-018  = Stoner Crack_

I smoked ~ 3 grams of -018 this summer and each time the high was equivalent to blazing a strong, pure sativa. Great stuff. "Mechanical" or "Cold" or "Chemical" feeling? No way. Indistinguishable from elite A+ dispensary cannabis, imo. 

The smoking ritual may be cold or mechanical (it certainly tastes like shit); anyone, any day, would prefer an iced and perc'd glass bong with a fresh bowl of green to JWH-018. Pot has a social value, a pass around the bong value, that JWH compounds completely lack, and that influences the high for a lot of people. But, being as objective as one can be when baked, the high, in and of itself, is indistuingishable.

Until... 

Forty-five minutes later. And you're not high anymore. At all. I mean your brain is still a little foggy but the intense, why am i in the kitchen holding a spatua?, sativa stone has diminished, RAPIDLY, to a pitiful little buzz.

WTF? Rip-off! Not satisfying!

Like whippets, aka "Hippie Crack", where people tend to compulsively screw nitrous cartridges into a worn out balloon, the same tendency exists with JWH-018. If you're prone to compulsive drug use (be it with hippie crack or crack crack) you'll likely have the same issue with JWH-018. 

I certainly did. If it ran out it was no big deal. I wouldn't crawl around the carpet looking for specks of -018 or pimp out my girlfriend to get more, but I rarely, if ever, just smoked "once". A session with -018 _always_ turned into full-on smoking sessions -- dose and repeat, dose and repeat, dose and repeat -- which I wouldn't do with cannabis alone. I always felt a little seedy afterward, as binging on anything involving a clear, homemade glass pipe is wont to do.

Stoner Crack.


----------



## Info

*Observations while making a tinture of JWH-018*

A 1g supply of JWH-018 has arrived and am experimenting with making a tincture.  I just wanted to share the results thus far.  

Setup:

50ml - water 
150ml - ethanol (190 proof)
1g - JWH-018
About 250ml glass jar with a metal lid

Observations:

JWH-018 had a very slight yellow tint, was a powder, and was not crystalline.
Out of curiosity, the 1g of JWH-018 was poured into the 50ml of water.
As you can guess, nothing dissolved.
The water was then heated to near boiling and stirred with the handle of a stainless steel spoon.  The JWH-018 turned into a sticky glob that attached itself to the stainless steel at the end of the spoon and it still would not dissolve.  It was also now yellower due to condensing into a clump/blob (this hot viscus blob is VERY sticky).  The spoon was pulled out and the 018 left to cool at the end.  It became stiff like old dry pre-chewed gum.  It wasn't left to cool long enough to see if would become very hard.
150ml of ethanol was added the the 50ml of water and heated to boiling.  The spoon end with the blob of 018 was placed in the ethanol mixture.  The blob melted and fell off of the spoon-end.  It sank very quickly to the bottom of the liquid.  The blob was poked, stirred (broke into many little blobs), and prodded for quite a few minutes until it completely dissolved.

The mixture (looks very clear, not cloudy at all) has since been sealed and refrigerated.  No further experimenting as of yet.  The goal was to be able to use a 1ml pipette to be able to easily and accurately administer 5mg of 018.

There's been much talk about vaporizing and smoking JWH-018, so I thought I'd add this and would like to get your thoughts.  It seems that, since it is already mostly pure and even transdermal, that orally administering it would be preferable.  Anyway, still reading up on the toxicology as much as possible.  Another 1g sample is on the way from a different source and more information will be posted.

Also, it smells like some sort of plastic.

EDIT:  Have to say, the smell and texture of JWH-018 when blobbed together and warm, is something left to be desired.  Quite disturbing; triggers some sort of internal mechanism that warns to stay far away from it.

EDIT 2:  After the solution has sat for about 20 hours in a very cold refrigerator (hovering just above 32degF), clear free-floating crystals have formed on the bottom of the jar resembling what looks like about 1g worth.  This is very interesting.  It could be pure JWH-018 and any impurities are still dissolved in the solution.  I will be separating out these crystals from the solution.

Question is, are those clear crystals the JWH-018? hmm


----------



## TheAzo

Info said:


> Question is, are those clear crystals the JWH-018? hmm



If you've got ~1g of crystals (or anything vaguely close to it), yes, they are. 

Are they a beautiful white/clear? Or that nasty off-white?

What you've just done is called "recrystalizing", if you were able to purify JWH-18 by recrystalization from 75% ethanol i'll be following the same procedure for JWH-73


----------



## Chainer

Info said:


> Anyway, still reading up on the toxicology as much as possible.



The more you learn about JWH, the less you will want to do it. 

Regardless, what you've discribed sounds impressive.  I'd love to see a picture of your recrystallized JWH.


----------



## Info

TheAzo said:


> If you've got ~1g of crystals (or anything vaguely close to it), yes, they are.
> 
> Are they a beautiful white/clear? Or that nasty off-white?
> 
> What you've just done is called "recrystalizing", if you were able to purify JWH-18 by recrystalization from 75% ethanol i'll be following the same procedure for JWH-73


Yes, beautiful transparent crystals.  In order to crystallize though, the temp had to come back down to about 32degF.  I figured that there was probably quite a bit left in the solution that hadn't crystallized so I decided just to leave it alone.  I bet that if the solution was poured off and the crystals exposed to a higher temp (room temp) they'd melt into the off-white stuff again... just thinking that the crystals, without being suspended in a very cold thick medium (ethanol-water vs. air) will fade in beauty... melt.  I bet the normal state at room temp of JWH-018 is a hard-ish plastic like substance.


----------



## Info

chainer3k said:


> The more you learn about JWH, the less you will want to do it.
> 
> Regardless, what you've discribed sounds impressive.  I'd love to see a picture of your recrystallized JWH.


I might get a chance to crystallize the solution again and I'll try and take a picture (bad camera).


----------



## ltr67

Coolio said:


> Uh. What does a "case" have to do with being arrested? Police officers arrest people; on the spot. If a police officer finds a small white baggy of powder on your person, it doesn't matter WHAT the label says on it, they're going to lie to you and say it field tested positive for cocaine or heroin and arrest you for possession. They have no incentive to properly test the substance. That's your problem.
> 
> You will be required to prove your innocence in a court of law at a later date and time. I hope you have bail money.
> 
> If a police officer makes a bad arrest, you can still spend months in jail waiting on a trial if you can't afford bail and a proper lawyer.



I agree that in the USA the theory of "innocent until proven guilty" is in most cases backwards.  But at the same time if you are stupid enough to be walking around with a zip lock bag of JWH in your possession without using some precautions beforehand, then quite frankly you deserve to be arrested.  It's usually the dumb people that f$^& up all the good stuff for everyone else.  Use some common sense (k.i.s.s) and you lessen the chances of getting yourself in a pickle with the worthless donut munchers!


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## respect marley

Basically accidentally dosed about 40mgs by smoking yesterday? Obviously i vomited etc. racing heart etc.

any words of advice to anything i can do to help my body, only now i realise the true carcinogenic potential and would like any advice if any can be given.

I tell the members on this forum know their stuff.

Thanks in advance, and of course any help is welcome.


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## chairmanma084

Coolio said:


> No, JWH-* have no structural similarity and are not derived from cannabinol or THC. They're not illegal anywhere in the USA.



yup.  so why discuss it? and in CD??

shit gets old and boring.  it's dumb.  "does JWH-BLA BLA whatever get you high?  is it like weed?  what if you mix it with ______?"  

same shit over and over.  

and hating on JWH isn't weed-snobbery.  if i didn't have weed, i just wouldn't smoke.


----------



## hx_

respect marley said:


> Basically accidentally dosed about 40mgs by smoking yesterday? Obviously i vomited etc. racing heart etc.
> 
> any words of advice to anything i can do to help my body, only now i realise the true carcinogenic potential and would like any advice if any can be given.
> 
> I tell the members on this forum know their stuff.
> 
> Thanks in advance, and of course any help is welcome.




Needn't worry as the theory for it being carcinogenic is unproven. Even if it were carcinogenic, tobacco smoke is KNOWN to contain a large amount of carcinogens, as does anything you smoke.




Regarding the effects of the compound, so close to weed its amazing and has saved me alot of money on the real thing. Unfortunately as of today its classified as a class B drug here in the UK. 

From The Times
December 23, 2009
Three 'legal highs' banned after deaths linked to the drugs
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6965663.ece


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## xbLeAcHx

if it was carcinogenic it would probably be about on the level of smoking a cigarette or something. i'm pretty sure sweet 'n low was proven to be carcinogenic...i remember many years ago when I was a kid, they still had the black box warning on the package that says it causes cancer.


----------



## Razorback

hx_ said:


> Regarding the effects of the compound, so close to weed its amazing and has saved me alot of money on the real thing. Unfortunately as of today its classified as a class B drug here in the UK.
> 
> From The Times
> December 23, 2009
> Three 'legal highs' banned after deaths linked to the drugs
> http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6965663.ece



wow that really sucks, They didnt outlaw the certain strains of SC's they outlawed all synthetics, So P.e.p pourri will no longer be I guess, Because I was thinking it comes from the UK. Hmm... I wondering how much longer we have here in the U.S?


----------



## simstimstar

hamhurricane said:


> ....but if the risk is real i will not hesitate to place it next to my MMQ and DOB in the isle of lost RCs.



I gotta ask, what is MMQ? I have searched and can find nothing.

*edit* I'm guessing methaqualone?


----------



## Roose

simstimstar said:


> I gotta ask, what is MMQ? I have searched and can find nothing.
> 
> *edit* I'm guessing methaqualone?



Correct, MMQ stands for Methylmethaqualone which is essentially the same as Methaqualone


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## FPU4eva

Can someone post a picture of like a 4mg dose?

[we dont do swim here]


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## BiG StroOnZ

smaller than the tip of a match.


----------



## FPU4eva

but can someone post a pic? a million thanks!


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## BiG StroOnZ

FPU4eva said:


> but can someone post a pic? a million thanks!



nobody is going to advocate you eyeballing doses, so with that said, I think I gave you a pretty standard example for you to understand about how much 4 mg is.

*Smaller* than the tip of a match:






Meaning, start off with a quarter of that size, then if that doesn't work for you, move up to half that size... etc. etc. etc.


----------



## FPU4eva

so im getting 018 073 081 200 and 250 tommorow in the mail and heard 018 can cause panic attacks? i have had flashbacks brought on by LSD and was wondering if theres a danger? and I was thinking of trying the 073 first. whats a good starting dose for 073? btw im taking it orally. much thanks!


----------



## BiG StroOnZ

-018 can cause severe panic attacks, the equivalent of negative thoughts while tripping (what some would call a "bad trip") but more anxiety driven. If I were you I would start with -073, followed by 200 and 250 before experimenting with 018. I have no personal experience, at least to my knowledge of using 081 (unless it was in a "legal blend" unknowingly)


----------



## kayenta

FPU4eva said:


> so im getting 018 073 081 200 and 250 tommorow in the mail and heard 018 can cause panic attacks? i have had flashbacks brought on by LSD and was wondering if theres a danger? and I was thinking of trying the 073 first. whats a good starting dose for 073? btw im taking it orally. much thanks!



JWH-018 is no more likely to cause panic attacks than weed IME, if you're an experienced stoner you will be fine. Just be careful with your dose - the amount you need to get you high is really really tiny.


----------



## McTwist

JWH-018 has treated me very well this past month. Since it's winter break, I've been smoking a lot of 018 over the course of the past month, usually smoking mainly at night. I absolutely love it! I've abstained from purchasing weed for over 2 months now, only smoking what my friends provide. I've saved quite a bit of money and am pretty happy about that.

I also find 018 to provide a very nice high that I could not achieve with shitty mids and a tolerance. I've noticed no negative effects besides the one night where I got some anxiety for an hour, but besides that I've been perfectly healthy, albeit a tad burned out if I've been smoking all day, kinda like weed.

My only gripe about 018 is that the high wears off so abruptly that it leaves me wanting to redose. Not like a strong I NEED TO!! urge, but more along the lines of I wish I was still high so I'm gonna smoke a small booster. I have no cravings for it either, so I can go without it if I want, but with all this free time I have, that has only happened a couple of times.

I'm gonna order some 073 to try that out and see how 018 and 073 combine.


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## FPU4eva

thanks for the input. yeah i heard a 2:1 mixture of 073 to 018 is nice


----------



## NoxNoctum

Hey does anyone  have any experience throwing some JWH-018 (I'm thinking 2 mg to start with, I'm a weeb newb having only smoked about 50 times) in a lightbulb vaporizer? I blew all my current dr00g money on the stuff itself and a .001 scale so can't really afford to buy some kind of spice to mix it into+acetone+rolling papers.

So yeah, anyone used a lightbulb vape with this successfully? 

What's the tolerance like? Would it be possible to smoke 2mgs several times a day several all week long and not have to increase dosage substantially?

I don't know anything about vapes, bongs, meth pipes etc.. I've only ever just smoked joints, but the lighbulb thing looked easy to make (cheap too). I'm just real concerned about not wasting my stuff. thanks guys.

Lastly, what's the duration for this stuff? A few hours? Does it have long lingering after affects like weed? (as in kinda sleepy dazed for several hours later)


----------



## kayenta

^Tolerance increases fast, like with weed. 2 mg will get you nicely stoned at first but you could easily find yourself vapourising 6 mg or more at a time by the end of a big session. I find that it's not as bad in terms of lingering after-effects as weed but there definitely are some (tiredness, hunger etc.). The more you smoke the more apparent these will be but in general I find myself coming down pretty cleanly in comparison.


----------



## Coolio

JWH-018 has the worst withdrawal of any cannabinoid I've tried. I don't mean comedown, I mean withdrawal if you've been on high doses 24/7 for a while. Cold sweats, body temperature dysregulation, complete lack of appetite. Running out of cannabis or CP 55940 just ruins my appetite.


----------



## Weebl8bob

Coolio said:


> JWH-018 has the worst withdrawal of any cannabinoid I've tried. I don't mean comedown, I mean withdrawal if you've been on high doses 24/7 for a while. Cold sweats, body temperature dysregulation, complete lack of appetite. Running out of cannabis or CP 55940 just ruins my appetite.



Fuckin' A brother!! Same here only more like if i run out of bud and im finding out that this pep spice stuff will cause the same troubles.. :-S


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## jbisho00

*jwh-018 e-cigarette*

Hello I'm new here, this is my first post, but I've used blue-light for about a year for research etc. I'm looking for a subtle way for using jwh-018. I know that it is only soluble in things like Alcohol or Acetone, but does that mean that the substance now evaporates at the temperature of the Alcohol or Acetone? I also know what e-cigarettes get to temperatures between 40 and 65 degrees Celsius. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/ScienceResearch/UCM173250.pdf and Alcohol having a boiling point around 64 degrees Celsius. Anyway thanks for reading.


----------



## Roose

^ why don't you just smoke it?


----------



## kayenta

jbisho00 said:


> I know that it is only soluble in things like Alcohol or Acetone, but does that mean that the substance now evaporates at the temperature of the Alcohol or Acetone?



No! If the solvent evaporates you will be left with solid JWH-018.


----------



## kken

Coolio said:


> JWH-018 has the worst withdrawal of any cannabinoid I've tried. I don't mean comedown, I mean withdrawal if you've been on high doses 24/7 for a while. Cold sweats, body temperature dysregulation, complete lack of appetite. Running out of cannabis or CP 55940 just ruins my appetite.



For me this works in combatting the lack of appetite: try to get used to eating BEFORE getting high. If you eat ONLY while high your appetite takes way harder hit (habituation? used to that better taste of food...)

this of course is a problem if you are high 24/7


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## Gad Anyonya

It's about time for me to chime in. With 40+ years of smoking all forms of cannabis I thought I'd try some jwh for stealth purposes. My personal grow op, yielding the wondrous Durban Poison is causing me immense parania, given inquisitive teens and a wife who no longer partakes, but I think is cool with it.

I've gotten the fiendish asthma over the last few years so my Vapir One is something of a godsend. I weighed up 5mg of a 073/081/250 combo, nice crtals, slighlty off-white, and vaped it at 400F, with no herbal additives. Noice little buzz with less of the mental numbing from the DP. This stuff was weighed right into the herb backet, since it's crystalline and it didn't fall through the mesh. 

It vaped well, but I noticed there was a clear plastic-like resin on the bottom of the mesh where the crystals were previously. There was no smell from this at all.

Cut ahead about 6 hours and put another 5mg into a 25ml pyrex flask, hit it with a ligher just undermeath and enjoy the vapours once again. Similar buzz, and also notice the semi-opaque epoxy type gunk where the crystals were.

I think this is desirable, since I want to be able to vaporize and catch a buzz, and also leave the crap behind, just like with my pot. I don't know what the clear stuff  is that gets left behind, but I'd rather it stayed away from by bronchii anyways. For the hell of it, I set the bic to the remaining stuff in the herb basket from earlier and noticed when it combusted it gave off a black smoke like burning plasic. Smelled like shite too!

So in conclusion. I think this jwh is a good candidate for vaporization, and I'm happy that the non-vaporized stuff stays out of my system. Has anyone else experimented with just vaping the crystals? I'm going to test vaping it a about 375F next, because the IO-Lite vaporizer is very appealing and I can bring it along when I visit friends. Of course, my DP will remain the sociable smoke of choice, but I do like the jwh too.


----------



## Coolio

The clear stuff is liquified JWH*. You can still vaporize it.

If not, you've been burning your JWH and you need to lower the temp. Or you have some impure shit.


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## Gad Anyonya

This is supposedly very clean material from a trusted source. The clear semi-opaque residue will not vaporize, as evidenced by it being left after both methods; vaping at 400F and indirectly heating it across pyrex with a lighter (I've heard about people using this with a meth pipe but I'd rather not personally). I definitely acquired a buzz, and at 5mg I wasn't expecting much more than that. As you mentioned, the clearish gunk may be a combustion by-product.

I'll definitely try some lower temperatures with the vaporizer. I've looked all over for some data on temps for vaporizing this stuff, but there's nothing so I just started at the highest first. I'll post any new findings.


----------



## HighonLife

does anyone know if K2 summit contains any JWH compounds?


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## Gad Anyonya

On with the JWH/vaporizing tests...

I applied a flame near my 25ml flask, still with the jwh residue from a couple of days ago and after a few seconds it melted futher and then vaporized as it boiled away. Unfortunately the boiling point is quite a bit higher than the melting point and the residue was still quite "active" so my pleasure centres tell me.  Hardly any residue remained once the flask cooled down.

So this little test tells me that JWH 073/081/250 will melt in a regular vaporizer like my Vapir One, but it will not boil, hence won't completely vaporize until it reaches higher temperatures closer to its boiling point as caused by a lighter flame under pyrex. I'd still like to see how heating/vaping time factors in, and if that makes a difference.

I guess I'll be adding the appropriate glassware and a torch lighter to my collection. Every type of JWH probably has a different boiling and melting point and I hope more useful data on this shows up. I still prefer using a vaporizer but I'll keep that for the THC-based goodies until I do some further testing. 

Oh yeah HoL, I personally don't know anything about K2 but these's a lot on it if you google the keywords in your question.


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## TheAzo

JWH-250, and probably other JWH's will break down if you dump some into a smoking device and try to use it multiple times. put in only what you are going to smoke, and smoke it all in a couple of hits. Don't dump enough for a day into a pipe/vape/tube/etc and expect it to still be good by the end. White JWH-250 will turn brown if you don't vape it all, as will the other JWH's (though my samples of them are not pure white to begin with, sadly - they've got that orange-brown crap in them. 99.5% pure my ass)


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## Verybuffed

Do any of you guys know how bud soaked/sprayed with synthetic cannabinoids smokes up?


----------



## tastethealex

jbisho00 said:


> Hello I'm new here, this is my first post, but I've used blue-light for about a year for research etc. I'm looking for a subtle way for using jwh-018. I know that it is only soluble in things like Alcohol or Acetone, but does that mean that the substance now evaporates at the temperature of the Alcohol or Acetone? I also know what e-cigarettes get to temperatures between 40 and 65 degrees Celsius. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/ScienceResearch/UCM173250.pdf and Alcohol having a boiling point around 64 degrees Celsius. Anyway thanks for reading.



I have tried adding the JWH-018 in powder form onto one other filters on an E-Cig in order to see if it would work, also to help it dissolve onto the atomizer i put a couple drops of the nicotine liquid on top. I had smoked some pot about an hour or so before I decided to give this a try. What I noticed is that before the JWH would break down to a liquid to be vaporized the liquid nicotine had already began to vaporize and would give off the taste that i took to harsh of a hit and the taste was terrible. not that of the JWH but that i was vaporizing way too much nicotine in order to get an effective dose of JWH, and even at that it wasn't quite as much as i would have preferred. It for the most part prolonged the high slowly to sobriety over the process of about 6 hours. I don't plan to try this method again. even though it did work, the taste was bad and it wasn't an enjoyable method of intake.

my next test, however will be to liquefy the JWH into acetone first then try mixing this soluvant with the liquid nicotine, my hypothesis is that by first breaking it down to a liquid and combining the 2 it will raise the evaporation level of the 2 substances to a common temperature and possibly make the experience easier and more enjoyable. I will try to report back with my results within the next couple days.



Roose said:


> ^ why don't you just smoke it?



The reason I wanted to smoke this way is because i work graveyard in an office with a job that has a lot of downtime, >90% of my day is spent mindlessly browsing the web, there are only a couple of us who work at this hour so I can not be taking many breaks to go outside to smoke, yet with my E-cig I can smoke indoors. by vaporizing JWH i will be able to maintain my high through out my shift without impairing myself to maintain my high for a full 8 hours. it is also very discrete and would make for a nice portable way to smoke on the go. of course while at home i will smoke the substance straight or sprinkle a few mg on top of some bud to ad some legs to my high, but unfortunately that is not always an option.


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## greenmeanies

don't try vaporising JWH/acetone in your e-cig. you will get a face full of acetone vapor and then you will end up back where you started, with the JWH just hanging out and not vaporising. 

have you tried oral ingestion?


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## DextroKid

SWIM received some jwh-018 recently. Off white powder, smells horrible.  Before SWIM goes into detail of the experience, SWIM will say that he/she has had experience with many chems, including LSD, MDMA, Opiates (Hydrocodone, Codeine, Heroin, Oxy, Dilaudid, many more) DXM, Benzo's, Mephedrone, Ketamine, Nitrous Oxide, 2CB, 2CI, Methamphetamine, Dexamphetamine, Shrooms, Salvia, and a VERY regular user of cannabis. 

That said, upon receiving the JWH-018 I first read all the available information SWIM could dig up regarding dosages, experiences, length of intoxication, etc etc.  Later that evening, SWIM decided to give it a try.  Measured out 2 mg of JWH and placed it atop a pile of ashes in my trusty bowl.  

Smoked, held vapor in lungs for a moment or two.  Tastes odd, very synthetic, but somehow not unpleasant.  One minute in, nothing.  Waited ten minutes, and measured out another 2mg and carefully placed on the pile of ashes.  Four or five minutes later, and SWIM notices a bit of altered perception.  Very slight visual distortion, very much akin to the slight visual distortion one would feel after smoking some high quality kb.  A slight bit of possible anxiety(?), but SWIM is a seasoned cannabis smoker and relates this to his experiences with pot, and anxiety subsides.  SWIM continues with this interval of 2mg dosing about every hour or so for a few hours.  Nice, even buzz, very much like a cannabis high, but just a bit different in the same token.


SWIM continues this basic procedure of dosing for a few days, and no problems whatsoever.  SWIM is beginning to doubt all the talk of anxiety and the such that he reads on sites such as this one.  SWIM is feeling quite nice one evening, following the same routine described above, little 1mg doses at a time.  SWIM thinks he will be "brave" and attempt a larger dose of 10mg.  Now, just to make a point first, the reaction SWIM experienced may have been due to the fact that the substance was collecting in the pipe as well as the fact that he/she upped the dosage, so keep this in mind when reading the following experience:
SWIM puts 10mg (collectively, more residue in bowl perhaps?) on top of pile of ashes, and melts down powder until a vapor is inhaled, then held for 5-10 seconds.  Upon exhalation, an almost immediate shift of consciousness is noticed, the room becomes a bit brighter, and SWIM feels as if he has been instantly thrown into the head of a person who has been smoking high quality hash for over an hour.  Heart begins to race, but again, SWIM is a seasoned smoker, and uses breathing technique to fight back anxiety.  Not but a minute or two later, a creeping fear rose from nowhere, based on no current thought or bad feelings, and almost without warning, instantly took hold.  Was SWIM ok?  Is SWIM going to die?  The "fear" took hold like no other chem that SWIM has experienced.  Much akin to the fear that SWIM had felt from Salvia, but in this case, SWIM was more aware of his surroundings, though somehow powerless to control the anxiety that grippeh him.  SWIM walks to the bathroom, splashes water on face, requests ice water.  After a few anguishing minutes (2 or 5?), the fear slowly subsides, and once it does, this chem becomes the manageable one that SWIM has come to be familiar with, much like cannabis.  SWIM must STRESS, that once one has crossed a certain dosage threshold, that JWH-018 is absolutely NOTHING like cannabis or THC.  It is more akin to a short lived, medium-to full blown psychedelic experience not unlike Salvia or DMT.  The difference being, that unlike Salvia or DMT, SWIM could not control the "fear" once it took hold, like he could with these other substances.  SWIM highly suggests the proper dosage of this chem, and starting out with minute doses to learn your tolerance.  SWIM has a feeling that someone without prior tolerance to cannabis would find this experience quite a bit more unsettling.  Do not be fooled by a small dose and think that this chemical is not powerful.  You will be in for a rude surprise.  


However, in conclusion, SWIM thinks that if used in very small doses that this chem is quite similar to cannabis, though not exact by any means.  Larger doses bring on a totally different animal with this one, so be careful.  And SWIM seconds the notion that it would be good to have benzo's around, just in case, when one is using JWH-018.

[for future reference don't use swim]


----------



## Weebl8bob

Lupus said:


> Just to chime in.
> 
> I posted a thread about this somewhere else but i've experienced Akathisia from the combination of low dose D-AMP and Spice diamond and then replicated the effect two other times. Im well experienced with dexedrine and this is definetly not a side effect of it alone. It'll be interesting to see what the actual mode of action is for JWH-018 and why it would cause a side efffect similar to that of a neuroleptic.



To Lupus, I have fibromyalgia and ADHD and take both Lyrica 3x a day 75mg which is perfect for the majority of pain-related symptoms, and amphetamine mixed salts at what is a ridiculously low dose comparatively to the dose i need to get 'high' off the stuff (Only taking 10mg in the A.M. now, had been on 50mg a day for past year and have been on stims for ADHD since i was about 11.. so 7 years of collective tolerance to amphetamines) and have been using jwh-018 for the past 6 weeks at roughly 50-100mg a day altogether and have not noted any side-effect similar to those of a neuroleptic so i think that you may be in a minority of the population and that this is not very common as far as side-effects go with the combo.. I also have to tell you man, be careful and don't assume that you are impervious to other health issues and ascribe the symptoms to your drugs by accident.. if the condition you described continues i would see a physician.. but from the sounds of it, you may just be experiencing the synergistic stimulant/depressant-like properties of the chemical jwh-018 itself.. so just be careful and cautious man ;-)

On to my thang I wanted to ask ya'll here: Okay, so I read that there is a purification process involved in the synth of jwh-018 and I have a feeling that a vendor I just had an order sent out from does not have very pure jwh-018 at all.. I was curious as to whether or not anyone could shed some light on what this purification would entail.. also, what are the most common impurities resulting from synth to your knowledge?? I can't seem to get many answers elsewhere that suit my needs here..

Thanks guys!!


----------



## Weebl8bob

Verybuffed said:


> Do any of you guys know how bud soaked/sprayed with synthetic cannabinoids smokes up?



Sorry for double-post here, but just made note of your question..
I have laced up my ganja-green with jwh-018 and 073 combined and jwh-018 on its own before and it worked quite well for me...
All I did was take a baggie of shake-like, finely chopped buds and took a 25mg dab of jwh-018 and threw it on top of the stuff, inflated the bag slightly with my mouth before closing it, then shook it up for a good while until the buds were covered with dust... It was only a gram of bud per 25mg, but take heed as I had a tolerance at that time too and even then a bowl of it got me gone good haha.. ^_^

My goldfish totally told me that story above by the way.. just thought I would share it with you Verybuffed ;-)

Goldfish also says to tell you that when he did the above that he can feel that there are two main buzzes and that they have little interaction with each other unlike, just for example, how THC potentiates opium and vice-versa when smoked up together.. The jwh+green combo is a good combo don't get me wrong.. it's just weird though to be honest.. a lot more visual than with just the synthetics alone though.. Hope I helped ya out here


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## Weebl8bob

Okay, first I want to know how I have to smoke 10-20mg to get high of what has tested at 97%+ pure reliably, yet you all can smoke such petty doses and be ripped to shreads by the junk.. stupid cannabinoid tolerance 

Anyway, so positive notage here guys: Anti-depressant effect of jwh or just euphoria?? I recently noted the past 2 days (week seven of daily use of jwh at or above 20mg per day) that I am just emotionally able to take on anything.. like better than normal even, which is not saying much since w/o pot or analogous substance(s) I am an asshole by day 2 without the stuff haha, but with no regard, my patience level is so high I can tolerate things as well as I could when I was back at this one facility i used to live in where we would get so much shit from the C.O.s that you HAD to take it or get tackled and restrained if you tried to be 'insubordinate' in any way lol.. I mean like, i want to go into detail with this but it would become more of a story of my life type thing than data supporting a hypothesis hehe..

Anyway, so all I want to say basically, is that I get high off of a lots and lots of jwh and have never been more emotionally sound in my life.. it's like the perfect drug for my depression, anxiety, pain, sleep, and all sorts of stuff.. It seems I have finally found what I was looking for after many years of dedicating myself to finding that one drug that i shall call my own, for only it has such curative effects that no other drugs were capable of producing for me in my past.. This is it, this is the shit, this is where it's at, this is "waas sappinin'" hehe...

So, any other comments or questions on this update?? Also must add, this jwh compound, along with a few doses of lyrica, lunesta for sleep, and amphetamines (as scripted) i find  to be the only medications to be capable of help all my symptoms that fibromyalgia, ADHD, insomnia, anxiety, and depression can cause if i go without the afforementioned meds... so yuh.. positive medical application here guys.. definitely so for pain, depression, sleep, and to an extent anxiety 

Very hard to explain in words.. Just nod, smile, and agree if you dont at all understand what just occured here hehe 


[ATTN: Realizing it is perhaps having something to do with my seasonal affective disorder improving too as the weather warms up ^_^ ]


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## Roose

Very informative posts weebl8bob :]


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## Weebl8bob

Thanks Roose.. I try ;-)
Hehe..


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## TheTwighlight

*Oral Ingestion of Synthetic cannabinoids*

Can JWH-018 &/or other synthetic cannabinoids be orally ingested? How would the oral dose compare to the smoking dose?

Has anyone here ever orally ingested any synthetic cannabinoids?

Cool, thanks. Peace out.


----------



## Help?!?!

Yes they can. I don't know about others but jwh-018(depending on your tolerance) can be taken at  doses of 10-20mgs. It lasts longer and has a pretty enjoyable high.


----------



## Pegasus

-> Cannabis Discussion


----------



## Weebl8bob

Just discovered something after a 24 hour or more lapse in doses that had been about 2 hours [tops] prior to that for the past few weeks every day all day haha..
Anyway, I have found that after 24 hours were near my asthma has returned.. then later that day, ingested via inhalation 50mg of the chemical infused in a gram of smoking tobacco and instead of asthma issues i have a chronic cough that seems to be preventing any asthma related symptoms.. 

I must also make mention of the curious fact that the same effect as described above is common in cannabis users who have such asthma issues according to my experience with other pot smoking asthma sufferers hehe =]

Waiting on someone to come along and liven up this thread.. it seems so dead lately.. comments?? questions?? haha  Im open to whichever.. c'mon and post.. dont be shy haha ^_^

Peace..


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## Eldaren

I've eaten 018. Goes ok. Probably about 20-30mg or so, but I was smoking about 10mg at a time.


----------



## Roose

TheTwighlight said:


> Can JWH-018 &/or other synthetic cannabinoids be orally ingested? How would the oral dose compare to the smoking dose?
> 
> Has anyone here ever orally ingested any synthetic cannabinoids?
> 
> Cool, thanks. Peace out.



Merged into ongoing Mega thread


----------



## Weebl8bob

Double your smoking dose and you'll have your oral dose which only seems to last about 1.5-2x as long tops.. and hits in like 40 minutes =]
[edit] I'm referring to jwh-018 by the way..


----------



## Delta-9-THC

I've tried ingesting JWH-073 (~50mg) and 018 (can't remember, maybe 20mg) and had little to no effects. Others have said it works for them though so I dunno.

I remember one person saying he baked his JWH-018 into brownies and it worked for him.


----------



## clara

I got some jwh18 the other day. it is very very fluffy and pure white. Cotton candy is a good description of its consistancy. The high (smoked)is very clean and even, slightly psychedelic. The high finishes with a voracious appitite, or a nice nap. I have also tried the 07 and 200's. The 73  is slightly more heavy on the body and shorter acting. The 200's are very short acting, but very nice.


----------



## upupandaway

should have a gr of 018 here shortly and plan to mix it with 1 liter of everclear (%95) for 1mg to 1ml solution to  mix into other drinks...results to follow


----------



## Tuneman

Weebl8bob said:


> I was curious as to whether or not anyone could shed some light on what this purification would entail.. also, what are the most common impurities resulting from synth to your knowledge?? I can't seem to get many answers elsewhere that suit my needs here..
> 
> Thanks guys!!




I have the same question- we can do all the research on JWH in the world but the fact is no one really seems to know where this stuff is coming from and who is making it- I am very concerned as to what type of stuff we are dealing with here if we (wisely) assume that our JWH is not exactly being made by trained chemists in a lab setting.


----------



## D's

jus smoked a joint, this shits fuckn great!! im fuckn high as fuck


----------



## Bardeaux

The JWH series is picking up some serious media attention. I wonder how long it has


----------



## D's

Bardo5 said:


> The JWH series is picking up some serious media attention. I wonder how long it has



what makes u say that?


----------



## Bardeaux

Even the local news is starting to run stories about legal marijuana poisoning our children


----------



## Tuneman

6 months ago I saw 1 story on JWH in the MSM and that was it. Over the past month I have seen numerous ones. It really won't take long.


----------



## graffmatic730

*Jwh-018*

Can you sniff it and if so how does it compare to eating or smoking it? thanks ,peace


----------



## Pegasus

->  Cannabis Discussion...


----------



## Bardeaux

I'm sure this question has been answered in this thread:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=407913


----------



## dankstersauce

It's nasty.  I accidentally dropped a tiny bit of powder on my desk and ended up sniffing the jwh with another powder.  It burned way more than what I was expecting.  I've also noticed from having jwh reside on my fingers that jwh tastes pretty gross too.  So a nasty taste, it burns and IMO doesn't get you high or as high as smoking.  No point in sniffing it really.


----------



## graffmatic730

What about eating(oral) it? Can someone tell me what they think the difference between smoking and eating it is. Also what is the best way to smoke it? thanks peace


----------



## Roose

graffmatic730 said:


> Can you sniff it and if so how does it compare to eating or smoking it? thanks ,peace



Merged With Mega Thread


----------



## D's

are we talking about the same shit? the shit i have can be picked up at head shops and it's in a little ziplock airtight package. 3 grams in all. Hell I will smoke a joint of this shit and I'm straighttt. Whats good about it is that it doesn't show up as THC in a piss test, and they don't test for it in a normal 12 panel test. don't know about other tests.


----------



## TheAzo

D's said:


> are we talking about the same shit? the shit i have can be picked up at head shops and it's in a little ziplock airtight package. 3 grams in all. Hell I will smoke a joint of this shit and I'm straighttt. Whats good about it is that it doesn't show up as THC in a piss test, and they don't test for it in a normal 12 panel test. don't know about other tests.



That shit is inactive herbs laced with JWH-018 (or other synthetics). 

K2 was 75mg JWH-018 per bag, a real ripoff. Others are probably similar. The pure compounds are available (and fairly cheaply).


----------



## MescalitoBandito

I mixed in double my normal smoking dose with a shot of rum, and so far the results have been disappointing...But then I only drank the shot 45 minutes ago, so who knows...The hardest part is waiting to smoke, just in case it all comes on in a sudden.

For those who have dosed orally, what did you dissolve it in? (It was really hard to get it to dissolve in the 80 proof rum, I had to heat it up a bit.)  How does vegetable oil work?  I've thought about making jwh-018 brownies...


----------



## Help?!?!

^I used everclear. I have heard of people using vege oil with good success and someone posted a thread on jwh brownies not to long ago. I'm getting so pissed off at those stupid blends that cost a millon bucks and aren't even worth it. Its their fault for all the media coverage. If it wasn't for them the jwh series could have possibly made it another year if nothing fucked up happened.


----------



## MescalitoBandito

Yeah, I at this rate I might just stock up now...It'll be a godsend to have around when I have to clean up for drug testing.


----------



## projekt2501

Ok, so I fairly new to the designer drug scene, I learn as much as I can before consuming a substance\chemical\drug. So after some research I ended up here at bluelight and so far this community has had the most in depth, and unbiased data imo. Now I am no chemist but, that's one thing i really liked about this this site, apparently they lurk in these forums. Which brings me too my issue. 

All research and theory shows jwh-018 as benign and safe for consumption in the short term, but A.90% of the data comes from an unknown source and B.MY HEART! 

Yea....I loves me my weed and 018 is crazy cheap and smoked in moderation will keep my ass blasted as long as i want, but i first noticed it on my first "trip". I say trip cus I have no scale and eyeball this stuff out (ive gotten better but...ya...), so i smoked too much and had the typical anxiety attack associated with 018...fine, dandy, w\e...the thing is my heart felt like i had snorted a few too many lines of really, really good cocaine.

At first I paid no mind as I've dealt with the issue in previous drug experiences, but with 018 I started getting it alot. Almost every high even if I went nowhere near the point where I'd be tripping out would be accompanied with a slight discomfort in my chest.(not a doctor either just to clarify) This first only occurred when I was high from the jwh but then started to happen when i coughed, sometimes would just pop up outa the blue, and now is sticking around mostly only when i cough. I have not smoked 018 in about a week or so.

Anyway I woulda probably wrote this off and kept on trucking if it wasn't for one specific little find on the internet. Again I'm no chemist and can only guess at the nuance but while researching chemistry for my own personal enjoyment I ran across this search in google. Now google sometimes shows different search results under the same search on different computers, so what your looking for is not the first but the second timber rattlesnake venom molecular composition image, second row down and 5 over.

I can only imagine that in chemistry any smaller part of the whole is typically benign and would only be carcinogenic, toxic, corrosive, pure evil, if you get specific matches of ¿atoms? (correct me if I'm wrong). Still I can't write off some similarities in the structures or much less the fact that this strange feeling, over the left upper right portion of my chest, started when I first smoked jwh-018 and is still here even though I'm not currently smoking it. I AM NOT saying this shit is to be equated to a venom, but the similarities are honestly scary to the uninformed. If I had only 1 answer for 1 question it would be, am I just dealing with the 018 anxiety poorly or could this be an issue for me? If I had another does anyone here know of anyone having any serious issues with jwh-018 which don't start with "i packed a rough 20mg+++ of this shit in pipe"?


jwh molecular composition


----------



## kayenta

projekt2501 said:


> Anyway I woulda probably wrote this off and kept on trucking if it wasn't for one specific little find on the internet. Again I'm no chemist and can only guess at the nuance but while researching chemistry for my own personal enjoyment I ran across this search in google. Now google sometimes shows different search results under the same search on different computers, so what your looking for is not the first but the second timber rattlesnake venom molecular composition image, second row down and 5 over.
> 
> I can only imagine that in chemistry any smaller part of the whole is typically benign and would only be carcinogenic, toxic, corrosive, pure evil, if you get specific matches of ¿atoms? (correct me if I'm wrong). Still I can't write off some similarities in the structures or much less the fact that this strange feeling, over the left upper right portion of my chest, started when I first smoked jwh-018 and is still here even though I'm not currently smoking it.



What are you talking about? The structures of JWH-018 and rattle snake venom are nothing alike.

I don't know what's wrong with your chest, but it's certainly not because of rattlesnake venom...


----------



## projekt2501

there are no similarities!? http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?2e7dd65c9c.png. again to clarify I am not asking if jwh-018 is rattlesnake venom...i understand its not... I'm asking if these obvious similarities look scary to anyone who knows their shit.


----------



## greenmeanies

rofl

you circled a couple phenyl rings, a keto group (the double-bonded O), and a four-carbon chain.
OOO scary chemistry! sorry, but most interesting compounds will have some combination of the above functional groups.

and where exactly is the "left upper right portion" of your chest located?


----------



## projekt2501

greenmeanies said:


> rofl
> 
> you circled a couple phenyl rings, a keto group (the double-bonded O), and a four-carbon chain.
> OOO scary chemistry! sorry, but most interesting compounds will have some combination of the above functional groups.
> 
> and where exactly is the "left upper right portion" of your chest located?



I like the initial response. As far as your question goes about where exactly, think pledge of allegiance. I kinda figured this is the response I'd get but the timing of this symptom bugs me out too much. Seriously aside from a handful of nights (life total 20-30) of cocaine use nothings played with my heart, it's a kind of mild sharp pain with a slight pressure to it.

edit. i have no medical insurance right now because of some lowly complications, soon as I get it sorted out I plan to get a full checkup. If they don't find anything they don't like ill run another checkup in a few months and post results if anyone is interested.


"left upper right portion" lol oops... upper left*


----------



## SnailS1904

projekt2501, did it feel like your heart was racing like mad? for around 30min. to an hour? and thats why your chest/heart hurt?


----------



## Zardokk

I've been researching this one for a few weeks now, and I've finally found my perfect dose. 25mg gets me right where I want to be. Very night body high, spacial distortion, and for the most part a fairly clear-headed high. The clarity of Jwh-018 is much greater than that of THC, but it lacks the full range of effects of good bud. When mixed with some good bud, JWH-018 really shines and pulls the high home. Damn, I am ripped like I haven't been since I started smoking. 25mg rocks my socks and tickles my cock. I recommend it to all ye out there. Clear headed? Sort of. As much as a cannabinoid can be. If you try it you'll get what I mean. I can't want to try other cannabinoids.


----------



## Tuneman

Zardokk said:


> I've been researching this one for a few weeks now, and I've finally found my perfect dose. 25mg gets me right where I want to be. Very night body high, spacial distortion, and for the most part a fairly clear-headed high. The clarity of Jwh-018 is much greater than that of THC, but it lacks the full range of effects of good bud. When mixed with some good bud, JWH-018 really shines and pulls the high home. Damn, I am ripped like I haven't been since I started smoking. 25mg rocks my socks and tickles my cock. I recommend it to all ye out there. Clear headed? Sort of. As much as a cannabinoid can be. If you try it you'll get what I mean. I can't want to try other cannabinoids.




25 mg is a ridiculously high dose BTW- most people start with 1 or 2 tops and can be way too high from 5 or 6 mg.


----------



## projekt2501

SnailS1904 said:


> projekt2501, did it feel like your heart was racing like mad? for around 30min. to an hour? and thats why your chest/heart hurt?



Exactly, but only my chest my head is fine. I should specify that what worries me is that fact that this feeling now hangs around, been almost 2 weeks since i smoked the stuff and still when i cough today i get that feeling in my chest(same feeling\spot). Mind you, I am a heavy tobacco smoker.


----------



## SnailS1904

projekt2501 said:


> Exactly, but only my chest my head is fine. I should specify that what worries me is that fact that this feeling now hangs around, been almost 2 weeks since i smoked the stuff and still when i cough today i get that feeling in my chest(same feeling\spot). Mind you, I am a heavy tobacco smoker.




thats crazy and im sorry to hear that your still feeling effects.
i posted here towards the bottom what was happening to me right after i smoked some shit, and forgive me i was really really freakn out 
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=443937&page=2

I still really have yet to figure out why my body completely freaked out to it. It wasnt like any bud i have ever smoked ever. I completely forgot who i was, where i was, i had to completely piece fragments of my memory back together to figure out what was real. while like what you described what was happening. My heart racing like it has never before, and terrible terrible fear and anxiety. It was terrible.

But my chest/heart pains were not there when i woke up thank god


TheAzo said "JWH-018 is also particularly unforgiving; probably partly because it's somewhat selective for CB2 (peripheral)"

Is it because my peripheral was gone that my body went into panic mode?


----------



## greenmeanies

projekt2501 said:


> Mind you, I am a heavy tobacco smoker.



quit the cancer stix and your heart and lungs will feel 1000% better in a month.

the heart-pounding aspect of a cannabinoid overdose probably just increased your pain sensitivity-- i bet the chest pain was always there, just numbed by the nicotine buzz.


----------



## Coolio

The feeling you are experiencing in your "heart" is what people refer to as "anxiety". A physical pain in the chest is anxiety/nervousness. It's manifested by your psyche.


----------



## Weebl8bob

To he who posted about chest pain, rattlesnakes, and jwh (odd combo might i add.. lol wtf?):
 You smoke tobacco
 Tobacco smoke contains 'bad stuff' for the body
 You smoked a chemical that is likely the least of concern as a toxin to you
 The chemical you smoked resulted in side-effect of anxiety
 Anxiety caused heart rate and assumed that the same is true for your b.p. to increase
 Increased blood pressure, a bad cardiovascular system due to tobacco over-consumption, and the additional 'irritant' compound, jwh-018 thrown in there caused you to suffer from the same pain as when you run and are a smoker..
 It isn't the jwh-018, but is rather just the effect it has on you due to your 'abusing' your body with tobacco.. In essence, you just showed yourself what smoking really does to you without noticing lol


----------



## Weebl8bob

Weebl8bob said:


> To he who posted about chest pain, rattlesnakes, and jwh (odd combo might i add.. lol wtf?):
> You smoke tobacco
> Tobacco smoke contains 'bad stuff' for the body
> You smoked a chemical that is likely the least of concern as a toxin to you
> The chemical you smoked resulted in side-effect of anxiety
> Anxiety caused heart rate and assumed that the same is true for your b.p. to increase
> Increased blood pressure, a bad cardiovascular system due to tobacco over-consumption, and the additional 'irritant' compound, jwh-018 thrown in there caused you to suffer from the same pain as when you run and are a smoker..
> It isn't the jwh-018, but is rather just the effect it has on you due to your 'abusing' your body with tobacco.. In essence, you just showed yourself what smoking really does to you without noticing lol



Oh, by the way.. I'm not hatin' on ya bro.. I get the same damn side-effects at the dosage i prefer, but I recognize it's cause is purely the tobacco.. I don't smoke a cig for 2-3 days that goes away.. Start back at a pack a day and 'OUUUCH!!' haha 
Be careful, be educated, stay in skool, quit smoking... just don't die at any cost and you'll be okay im pretty sure :D


----------



## Jabberwocky

*thinking about ordering pure jwh*

Can I just sprinkle it in an empty bowl and smoke it?


----------



## Captain.Heroin

-> Cannabis Discussion


----------



## egor

Tickle My Pickle said:


> Can I just sprinkle it in an empty bowl and smoke it?



If you want to overshoot your dose by a significant margin and have the worst panic attack imaginable...

These JWH's are far too dose sensitive to eyeball.


----------



## Chainer

Read more about JWH.  Do you know which JWH you are ordering?  I suggest 073 if you are new to this, though it's not much of a suggestion, I would avoid these RCs all together.

JWH-018 is HIGHLY active at 3mg doses... That's the equivellent of, oh, say.... 3 grains of salt?

You will need a decent milligram scale or prepare it in a liquid solution.  Eye balling JWH has lead to some intense freakouts.  I've seen it first hand when frat kids think they can just "sprinkle" some on top of shitty shwag.

Also, I've found they collectively have some "fiendish" properties due to the comeup and come down, similar to my experiences with stimulants.  Just a friendly warning.  Also, if you are in the states, be prepared to face customs jacking your order.  I think JWH was just made illegal in one state, which means more are preparing to follow suit (I don't want to bother looking up which state).  Many distributors also sell cut JWH.  If you know & trust your source, give it a whirl.  I've freebased this substance a few times and can say it's just not the same as the real deal.  Also, felt dirtier smoking this shit.


----------



## clara

I love the whole JWH series! chainer I will agree on most of your comments:
It is HIGHLY active, If you OD by just a little it will be a horrible time, get some scales DON'T eye it out! I don't however find it fiendish. I used to smoke a ton of weed but get DT at work weekly now so this is a viable alternative for me. It is not illegal in all states yet. So you might have some luck. All the JWH's that I have received have been powdered, until i found a supplier that adv. 99.98% pure this stuff had an altogether diffrent look than the others, it was brilliant white and fluffy like cotton candy, IMO this was the purest i have seen, and strong. Best of luck. BTW take chainer's advice buy a scale, having too much JWH is not fun a trust me i have done it.


----------



## Chainer

I should have noted the fiendishness isn't to heavy, it's just the nature of the drug since the comedown is so seemingly sudden, leaving you wanting more.  I've only found this to be the case with JWH-018, my error in saying "collectively."  Of course, YMMV.  Some people love the stuff, personally I wouldn't use it unless I had to deal with random DTs.  Also, there isn't much known about the composition of this RC -- it has been recently noted to be carcinogenic (as an fyi), to what degree, I am unaware.


----------



## greenmeanies

i believe my supplier may have cut or impure stuff, as i am able to eyeball a relatively large pile (~10mg) and smoke it to a couple people without any ill overdose. our cannabis tolerance is not very high either.

at first we tried using a straight-shooter pipe, but most of the jwh recrystallizes inside the tube. the best method we've found is to chase it on tinfoil. it can also be hot-knifed if you have experience with that. i would advise against putting it in a pipe you will use for weed, as it will collect in the resin and you might get a bigger hit than you planned further down the line.


----------



## Coolio

chainer3k said:


> it has been recently noted to be carcinogenic (as an fyi), to what degree, I am unaware.



Source? That's not true at all that it's carcinogenic.


----------



## Tuneman

There's a pretty good thread on bluelight somewhere about carcinogenic properties of it but it wasn't really clear on how carcinogenic. Cured meat is carcinogenic too and no one was really able to find a source showing how bad jwh actually is.


----------



## kayenta

Tuneman said:


> There's a pretty good thread on bluelight somewhere about carcinogenic properties of it



It's all up in the air at the moment. It certainly hasn't been _proven_ carcinogenic.


----------



## Coolio

Tuneman said:


> There's a pretty good thread on bluelight somewhere about carcinogenic properties of it but it wasn't really clear on how carcinogenic. Cured meat is carcinogenic too and no one was really able to find a source showing how bad jwh actually is.



You mean that there's absolutely no evidence, just speculation?


----------



## Chainer

Sorry, I don't have the link.  I could be mistaken.  I remember reading a pretty in-depth article about JWH-018.  I took it to mean that it was carcinogenic, just unknown to what degree.  One cig?  A pack?  I don't know, or care much because I don't smoke JWH anymore.  If I get the time, I'll try to dig up that article


----------



## projekt2501

Coolio said:


> The feeling you are experiencing in your "heart" is what people refer to as "anxiety". A physical pain in the chest is anxiety/nervousness. It's manifested by your psyche.



this makes alota sence to me which is why in my first post i pointed out, is this just me freaking out with the typical anxiety... or is this shit poison...to me. i cant pretend to be a chemist but i fully understand that the SAME drugs CAN have different effects on different people. BUT i gota say im still just in a WTF mode over the fact that this specific heart issue\pain i'm talking about, once again, started on the first day i smoked 018 and now lingers weeks later. A feeling i can only compare to former cocaine use, and if you wanna know about the frequency of my cocaine use, not once this year maybe 3-4 time last year which is a totally typical rate for me. i obviously need a checkup and am gunna get it asap, hmmmm...idk i just saw a few really deep posts by ppl like murphy and have been left wondering. can anyone tell me with such depth why or why not this could even possibly be affecting my heart so much time after consumption.


----------



## greenmeanies

if you were feeling actual pain in your heart for this long, you'd probably be dead by now. the pain is either in your lungs (caused by cigarettes) or in your head (caused by anxiety). either way, try quitting the cigs and it WILL get better.

how is your overall health? can you climb two flights of stairs without stopping to wheeze like a ninety-year-old? how much water do you drink daily? caffeine? how much sleep do you get?

i'm convinced that this issue was already present in your body, it just took a panic attack for you to notice it.


----------



## xchaosx

i also have gotten a pain in my heart area, left center side of the chest, and am pretty sure that jwh-018 is at the very best making the pain worse.  smoked it for months without any bad side effects.  then i started to notice a mild pain, which eventually got stronger, and appeared periodically when i was not high, and even several days after getting high, it seems to be pretty much permanent now, although i smoke very little jwh-018 now because of this. no more than once a week.  comes and goes.

i do not smoke other than cannibinoid blends, or cannibis.  am in good shape, excersise & running seemed to make it feel better usually, so i came to the conclusion it is not in fact my heart or lungs, but what is it exactly i have no clue.

i can't say for sure that is was jwh-018 even, only that smoking blends made the pain much worse, and cutting way back on the smoking blends made it much more mild, although it has not disappeared completely.


----------



## SnailS1904

greenmeanies said:


> if you were feeling actual pain in your heart for this long, you'd probably be dead by now. the pain is either in your lungs (caused by cigarettes) or in your head (caused by anxiety). either way, try quitting the cigs and it WILL get better.
> 
> how is your overall health? can you climb two flights of stairs without stopping to wheeze like a ninety-year-old? how much water do you drink daily? caffeine? how much sleep do you get?
> 
> i'm convinced that this issue was already present in your body, it just took a panic attack for you to notice it.




it must of just been the anxiety for me then, i dont smoke anything, no cigs or bud...nada this was the first time smoking anything in like 2 years. Im in great shape and exercise frequently.  Is there anything i can do about the heart racing extreme anxiety that i experienced when i smoked this? Or am i just SOL and out some $$ ahah


----------



## xivixive

there should be a thread where knowledgeable experimenters post which active ingredients they suspect are in which legal blends, i dunno if thats crossing any forum lines? seems like it would be in the interest of harm reduction. maybe this is the thread for that? 
the reason i am suggesting is i cant find any resource like that after scouring the internet, and recently acquired a packet of SPIKE "Gold" in a gas station, smoked 1 bowl in 3 hits and shit was seriously intense, like coming up on mushrooms and doin a bump of bad blow, was way too high a dose of whatever was in that... if i smoke extremely small amounts mixed up in a bowl of reggies its comparable to numerous bowls of headyyy bud.. really fuckin weird though. not sure if its giving me a headache the next day or not yet, if others start saying the same will def cut the shit out.


----------



## Coolio

xivixive said:


> there should be a thread where knowledgeable experimenters post which active ingredients they suspect are in which legal blends, i dunno if thats crossing any forum lines? seems like it would be in the interest of harm reduction.



NOOOOOO! What makes you think THAT?

Speculation? That's not harm reduction, that's retarded.

Until there are some GC/MS results, you should not be speculating what's in these random blends. You especially shouldn't be telling other people about your stupid speculations.

You cannot possibly determine what's in these from subjective experience results. You need analytical laboratory results documented.


----------



## Tuneman

I did a TON of research on this stuff before trying it and have read pretty much everything available on the internet pertaining to JWH but I see a lot of what looks like typical cannabis type freak outs. 

People describing cannabis panic to the T sometimes very extreme which is understandable as anything with dosage in the mg range is gonna cause problems in an uncontrolled situation like these smoking blends. 

I have a blend that I take 1 hit- no joke- just 1 regular hit and am BLOWN like the equivalent of smoking an entire bowl of strong pot- and I have a pretty solid tolerance to Cannabis. I can't imagine someone with less tolerance taking even 3 or 4 hits of this stuff it would be a sure recipe for trouble. 

What little evidence there is out there seems to point to JWH having no effect on the heart whatsoever so your heart problems are probably anxiety which is super common. There is nothing about this drug which would cause chest pain the biggest risk right now appears to be long term, or at least semi long term cancer risk of some sort. This has nothing to do with the heart.


----------



## MescalitoBandito

I think almost everyone who has ever tried jwh-018 ended up doing too much at some point, and had similar symptoms.  I mean, if you could smoke five blunts in one hit, chances are you'd have a panic attack (or at the least an unpleasant experience.)  If overdosing were dangerous you'd be seeing a fentanyl-esque epidemic by now.  People are getting way too high, yes, but um....I think that's it.


----------



## Chainer

^ For now.  There isn't much information about long-term effects, or really much about effects in general.  These are relatively new RCs and are just now gaining more popularity through boards such as this.

As use goes up, so will accusations.  Some will be true, some won't.   Simply not much research done on these for human consumption.


----------



## Delta-9-THC

Personally, I wouldn't smoke something long term that has the potential to be carcinogenic. I know very little about pharmacology but the discussion of its potentially carcinogenic metabolites are enough to make me avoid smoking these chemicals. Especially when I have good cannabis that is readily available.

I have tried it and it is good (particularly 018 ) but I would never use it as a full on replacement for cannabis until these persistent rumors of its toxicity are cleared up.

Even if it is just speculation with no hard evidence to support it's still enough to make me avoid it until I know more. It is just really hard to justify smoking it IMO. I'm not just gonna smoke it and *hope* that the rumors about cancerous metabolites aren't true. It just doesn't seem worth it at all.

For those of you who smoke this a lot: is it really worth it? I know you probably rationalize that it hasn't been PROVEN to cause cancer but that just doesn't seem like the best reasoning. Why not just wait till more study has been done? The fact that all these blends (particularly K2) are getting so much media attention will hopefully spur some more research into its toxicity.

I have enough things to worry about already. I don't need to be wondering whether what I am smoking will cause me to develop lung cancer in 15 years.

Even the guy who created the drug says it's a bad idea.

Also, on a side note. In one interview Huffman said that JWH is supposed to be an amber gel and that the powder form is the result of a botched synth. Is this true or is he just wrong? Perhaps chemists are making it into that form purposefully so that it can be easily distributed and smoked.


----------



## Coolio

I find it more likely that the anti-cancer effects of generic CB1/CB2 agonism would prevail. All cannabinoids seem to have an anti-tumor effect, even if they were simultaneously creating DNA interlocuters.


----------



## Coolio

Delta-9-THC said:


> Also, on a side note. In one interview Huffman said that JWH is supposed to be an amber gel and that the powder form is the result of a botched synth. Is this true or is he just wrong? Perhaps chemists are making it into that form purposefully so that it can be easily distributed and smoked.



Huffman doesn't know what he's talking about. Just because he invented it doesn't mean he knew how to purify it.

The amber color comes from an impurity which a certain BLer has separated out using acetone or IPA before. Pure JWH-018 is an amorphous white substance, and it goes yellow->red->brown as you add more of this unidentified impurity.


----------



## Delta-9-THC

I figured that something like that would be the case. It wouldn't make sense that all the JWH on the market is a botched synth.

I still find the whole potentially cancerous metabolites thing pretty sketchy. I don't know enough about pharmacology to ease my mind on this so I kind of have to just take other people's word for it. I have no way of knowing whether you're right (about the DNA mutation effects being cancelled out) or whether the other people are. I don't think it's something worth taking a risk on considering cannabis is known to be pretty safe and has the same effects (not to mention tastes better).

I've had a couple grams of JWH sitting around that I haven't touched since the first few times because of this. It's not worth the paranoia of worrying about whether I'm causing serious damage to my DNA. 

Even if the whole thing is being exaggerated I'd rather be safe than sorry in this case. Especially considering that there is a much safer alternative that does basically the same thing. The extra legal protection and the novelty of having pure cannabinoids isn't worth while for me. Hopefully some more research is done soon.


----------



## Coolio

Not that the DNA mutation effects are cancelled out... more like the speculation that JWH-018 would have as strong an anti-tumor effect as JWH-015, CP 55940, or THC is more realistic to me than any speculation about carcinogenic epoxide intermediates. Without evidence I'm not going around saying either one is true. But based on speculation alone you could also think that JWH-018 is THE CURE FOR CANCER, period.


----------



## Delta-9-THC

Coolio said:


> I find it more likely that the anti-cancer effects of generic CB1/CB2 agonism would prevail. All cannabinoids seem to have an anti-tumor effect, even if they were simultaneously creating DNA interlocuters.



OK. From this statement I thought you were saying that even if it did produce DNA damaging metabolites that it wouldn't matter because of the simultaneous cancer fighting properties it could have.

That is still a big assumption and not enough to make me feel safe smoking this stuff. I know it is all just speculation but it is still worrying. Doesn't seem worth the risk when we have something readily available that produces the same general effect that is known to be pretty benign physically (i.e. cannabis).


----------



## projekt2501

greenmeanies said:


> if you were feeling actual pain in your heart for this long, you'd probably be dead by now. the pain is either in your lungs (caused by cigarettes) or in your head (caused by anxiety). either way, try quitting the cigs and it WILL get better.
> 
> how is your overall health? can you climb two flights of stairs without stopping to wheeze like a ninety-year-old? how much water do you drink daily? caffeine? how much sleep do you get?
> 
> i'm convinced that this issue was already present in your body, it just took a panic attack for you to notice it.



I'm tryin to stay as unbiased and scientific as possible, and the symptom lingering as long as it did\is just seems like a bit more than I want to ignore. Although I almost exclusively feel it when I cough now, still only on the upper left portion of my chest.

 As far as my health goes, if i hit 7-10 flights of stairs id be breathing heavy, not nearly enough water and way too much soda, sure. I get as much sleep as I can, when I can. Not that I wake up much (in the middle of the night) but it's always been hard for me to fall asleep.


----------



## projekt2501

Delta-9-THC said:


> Personally, I wouldn't smoke something long term that has the potential to be carcinogenic. I know very little about pharmacology but the discussion of its potentially carcinogenic metabolites are enough to make me avoid smoking these chemicals. Especially when I have good cannabis that is readily available.



This drug has been out in K2 and spice like blends since at least 2002. There are no official human trials but seriously in all that time how is it that there aren't more reports of issues\ods\hospitalizations? Well I looked for such reports up and down anyway, I couldn't find any that involved just 018. imo it was instantly like 50% less scary.


----------



## Coolio

Because he's talking about cancer, not overdoses.


----------



## projekt2501

Coolio said:


> Because he's talking about cancer, not overdoses.



meh what doesn't give you cancer nowadays...we get hit with radiation 24\7 =x. my uncle just survived a tift with cancer in his lymph nodes, he never drank or smoked, probably ate too much red meat. I don't live in fear that shit is everywhere and there's always a chance of cancer from a lot of random ass stuff.
even really healthy drug free people get it. I mean I'm not gunna go roll around in asbestos or chug benzene but fuck all if I'm giving up my red meats or car for fear of cancer potential or emissions. ::ahem:: pardon the french. like i said i smoke cigarettes though lol... 

anyway http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12093064/fpart/7/vc/1 i found this, more ppl complaining about their heart. now i'm gettin worried a bit.


----------



## Coolio

projekt2501 said:


> anyway http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12093064/fpart/7/vc/1 i found this, more ppl complaining about their heart. now i'm gettin worried a bit.



Once again that guy is describing an anxiety attack. You feel anxiety physically in your solar plexus area - I guess many people are unfamiliar with anxiety and are interpreting it as a feeling in their heart muscle. These sensations are the reason people with anxiety disorders often need benzodiazepines; they experience these chest pains constantly when their mind gets carried away with worry.


----------



## projekt2501

dude i havent smoked this shit in 2 weeks, i feel a cold sensation in that area this second, and anytime i cough i get the pain. im having an anxiety attack right now? no... granted I am smoking a bowl of some regs....


----------



## Coolio

Yes, cannabis sativa/indica can also cause anxiety. Once you experience an anxiety attack there can be residual effects for days, weeks, months, or years.


----------



## greenmeanies

iono why you're still asking medical advice from a bunch of stoners...

go ask your doc, he'll either tell you A) it's in your head or B) you have phlegm/tar built up in your lung from years of smoking or C) you have a genuine problem that needs immediate medical attention or D) jwh is actually alien nanobots that are assembling a mind-control device inside your heart.

i'm going to put $20 internet bucks on it being A or B.


----------



## BiG StroOnZ

Coolio said:


> Once again that guy is describing an anxiety attack. You feel anxiety physically in your solar plexus area - I guess many people are unfamiliar with anxiety and are interpreting it as a feeling in their heart muscle. These sensations are the reason people with anxiety disorders often need benzodiazepines; they experience these chest pains constantly when their mind gets carried away with worry.



Yup, the feeling is entirely mental or psychological - which I attempted to describe further on in that thread (specifically that it goes away, when you stop thinking about it...).


----------



## Delta-9-THC

greenmeanies said:


> iono why you're still asking medical advice from a bunch of stoners...
> 
> go ask your doc, he'll either tell you A) it's in your head or B) you have phlegm/tar built up in your lung from years of smoking or C) you have a genuine problem that needs immediate medical attention or D) jwh is actually alien nanobots that are assembling a mind-control device inside your heart.
> 
> i'm going to put $20 internet bucks on it being A or B.



D) sounds about right to me


----------



## maine michael

I am a satisfied user of JWH 018.  Despite the movement towards pot decriminalization, it can sometimes be difficult to find.  018 is an alternative...not as good IMHO but good enuff.  Especially when its legality allows on-line ordering and Fedex or mail delivery.

Note that I am talking about lab-produced, guaranteed 99% pure product.  For me the products like Spice and K2 have almost no effect.

The significant downside of 018 in my experience is that your body acclimates to it pretty quickly and the urge to increase dosage is strong.  I strongly suggest resisting this urge and just use the product in moderation...not more than once a day, less often if possible.

One new wrinkle is that beginning a week or so ago one of the online labs which previously shipped immediately upon getting an order now requires that customers fill out a (downloadable) registration form first.  It may be worrisome to some, but actually I'm happy to see them taking some preemptive steps to prevent being shut down by some hysterical legislators.  Most of the form is stuff you will have already supplied for shipping purposes - name, address, etc.  They want a reference (I just listed a buddy, whom they didn't contact) and they leave a space for "nature of experiments" or somesuch.  I gave them a 3-word answer and they accepted it...I suspect almost anything reasonable - nerve reaction times, social effects among subject groups, etc - would be good enuff.


----------



## Chainer

maine michael said:


> One new wrinkle is that beginning a week or so ago one of the online labs which previously shipped immediately upon getting an order now requires that customers fill out a (downloadable) registration form first.  It may be worrisome to some, but actually I'm happy to see them taking some preemptive steps to prevent being shut down by some hysterical legislators.  Most of the form is stuff you will have already supplied for shipping purposes - name, address, etc.  They want a reference (I just listed a buddy, whom they didn't contact) and they leave a space for "nature of experiments" or somesuch.  I gave them a 3-word answer and they accepted it...I suspect almost anything reasonable - nerve reaction times, social effects among subject groups, etc - would be good enuff.



That's interesting.  I'll have to try and find out which supplier is doing this, i wonder if this will become a trend.


----------



## projekt2501

http://www.mindfully.org/JWH/JWH-018/ credible test results?


----------



## KillingestAK47

*My JWH-018 expedition*

So i thought i would write up my experience with JWH-018. <snip>

I am very very very pleased overall with the product and my experience so far. The color is really close to being white so i was happy with that. 

So tonight i put around 1-2mg in my vaporizer a pile of powder about half the size of a grain of rice. I cook i inhale and wait for the fun to begin.

This is no joke some potent sh*t. After about 10-15 minutes i am nicely toasted. I decide to watch my new favorite video on YouTube STYLO by the Gorillaz 1080p. After that i was stoked for this sh*t. I continue to watch videos for an hour and be amazed. I realize i am as high as i am going to get and i decide to take another 1-2mg again what looked like half a grain of rice to my best estimates i didn't weigh it so don't take my word on this okay . After that i decide to go to Taco Bell.

I am a ninja when it comes to going to Tbell after11 pm. I have lots of xp i am a seasoned vet when it comes to driving to Tbell. 11pm here in Sandy, UT. This town is like a police state for how many cops are on the rout to T bell. I got the Gorillaz bummpin in my car subs are going and my tweets are sharpness. I get to Tbell and make my order everything is going smooth as ice.%) So i am on the home stretch with my food and i see these two yellow lights behind me and im like WTF is that. I got laser mind focus right now so i can see what it is. It was a motor cycle with out its light on and i was like buddy we are in a police state you know the cops are on the way and i couldn't warn him i swear as i think this in my head i see cop lights come on behind me in my rearview and he gets pulled over i even thought maybe i should too but then i was like nope i have ninja status and this fool is like some noob making a rookie maneuver like that. I mean i tripped out little when i saw the lights but then i was like this homie is fu**ed there is no way they are for me he dont even have his light on and hes drivin a motorcycle in the dark.

So i get inside and start on one of them new shrimp tacos.....oh so goodness. Then i watched the first two episodes of the new season of Southland and that was off the chain too. 

And then i think to myself this is only a few mg doses and its going to last me so long how many high adventures await me?!


----------



## Coolio

Keep in mind that you will develop tolerance to JWH-018 faster than to cannabis sativa/indica. And it is cross-tolerant.


----------



## LD50

Anyone has advice on temperature settings for volcano vap & jwh-073? thx


----------



## KillingestAK47

Coolio said:


> Keep in mind that you will develop tolerance to JWH-018 faster than to cannabis sativa/indica. And it is cross-tolerant.



Do you know about how fast your tolerance comes on if your using it like say a couple times on the weekends. What do you mean its cross-tolerant?


----------



## FPU4eva

I smoked about a gram of jwh in like 2 days, it was with friends thought, and there was binging on it involved lol



bradoi said:


> Jeebus!
> 
> Either you have insanely high tolerance or maybe you got -073 instead of -018... And even then, 200mg in such a short time... wow...
> 
> Or, of course, it might have been bunk...


----------



## greenmeanies

ak47: i just have to ask... your vape isn't clean, right? so it's possible you felt a combination high from the jwh + some weedy resin in your vape right

cross-tolerant meaning... if you have a 3g of weed a day habit, you will need to smoke more jwh to get high. if you have a 20mg jwh a day habit, you will need to smoke more weed to get high.

personally i have a low weed tolerance, but i only smoke ~1g every 3-4 days. i haven't noticed JWH increasing my tolerance yet, but i'm keeping my jwh usage fairly restricted (~10mg or so per week)


----------



## Mind On Money

So here's a hypothetical scenario:

I do not have access to a mg scale, & I do not own a vaporizer.

Could I take 1 g of JWH-018, dissolve it in everclear & accurately dose it that way?

1 Gram dissolved in 100 ml= 10 mg/ml

If this is possible, will it decay over time?


----------



## Oxymorphone

So I am getting a couple grams coming in the next couples hours. I have never tried it before and have no cannabis tollerance. Now I have a .001 scale but under 10mg I don't trust its accuracy. I want to start with a 2-3mg dose right? Now how do you guys measure that?

If I put it in solution then that makes smoking/vaping hard or does it? I bought an 'incense oil' (meth) pipes for this stuff and one for 5-meo-DMT, will they work well? anything i should know for my first time.

Oh and they DEFINITELY don't show up in drug tests for THC, right? I read they don't from many sources but have there been any false positives or a chance for it to show up with this stuff?


----------



## Mind On Money

Jwh-018 and thc are not the same thing. Not even close. You have nothing to worry about w/ a drug test.  As for the measuring, I'm still searching for that answer myself


----------



## Mind On Money

*JWH-018 Solubility*

I have read on another forum that jwh-018 is soluble in everclear. It is to my understanding that once this is done, you can either take it orally or drop the desired amount onto whatever you're smoking and let the alcohol evaporate.

My question is: Once you have made your solution, how long until the jwh-018 begins to decay? What is the best way to store the solution? 500 mg will last a while, so I need to know how to keep it just as it was when originally dissolved.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Roose

Mind On Money said:


> I have read on another forum that jwh-018 is soluble in everclear. It is to my understanding that once this is done, you can either take it orally or drop the desired amount onto whatever you're smoking and let the alcohol evaporate.
> 
> My question is: Once you have made your solution, how long until the jwh-018 begins to decay? What is the best way to store the solution? 500 mg will last a while, so I need to know how to keep it just as it was when originally dissolved.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Search engine please!


----------



## ltr67

Coolio said:


> Keep in mind that you will develop tolerance to JWH-018 faster than to cannabis sativa/indica. And it is cross-tolerant.



This is not necessarily true.  Just like with any chemical substance there are variables in regards to how JWH compounds can/will effect every individual.  For me personally at the same dosages used once daily,  I still get the same soaring high and have had no tolerance issues(yet).  But I know that cannabinoid receptors can become saturated over time with excessive usage, so it is probably best to use JWH sparingly.


----------



## Coolio

There's not really much tolerance to cannabis when used only once per day either. Tolerance develops from constant use.


----------



## Sega420

bump ffs. 



could the thread be renamed to "JWH & other synthetics thread" ?


----------



## junglist15

I don't like how the batches seem to always be of varying in quality. The 018 I just had was some of the highest quality yet though.


----------



## greenmeanies

just looking at the structure of JWH-018 and friends, it does NOT look like it degrades very easily. the fact that you can re-vaporize the jwh that recrystallizes on a pipe also points to its stability.

personally i do not know about the solubility of jwh in everclear, but I have tried dissolving it in salted 91% ISO. after some heating in the microwave, I managed to get 10mg/ml dissolved. this was dropped onto mints to attempt oral dosing at 4mg per mint. I dissolved four mints (16mg) on my tongue with zero effect noted.

has anyone else had success with oral dosing of these jwh? it works so well when vaporized, but my one oral trial was a complete failure.


----------



## KillingestAK47

greenmeanies said:


> ak47: i just have to ask... your vape isn't clean, right? so it's possible you felt a combination high from the jwh + some weedy resin in your vape right
> )



Yeah its got a little resin. I have used the 018 a few more times now and its a pretty consistent high. I'm a go see Alice and Wonderland tomorrow after i inhale a few vapor trails. I'm not going through it that fast so far trying to limit my usage to weekends.


----------



## Oxymorphone

Damn this shit is crazy potent. I've been smoking 3-6mg and been getting ridiculously stoned off it. I first tried it after some psychedelics and it really brought out a tryptamine and phenethylamine high i though was long faded the first two days I used it and wasn't sure if it was JWH that was psychedelic or not. I have been using a meth pipe I bought which has been perfect but I have noticed the chemical taste and nasty sap like chemical residue that sticks to your mouth. The high also seemed to have a very synthetic almost robotic like flavor to it and my friend and I both remarked it felt like we were programmed by robots among other ridiculous shit but that was just after smoking a lot the first time an hour or so after some epic 5-meo-DMT trips and the JWH brought out a lot of tryptamine visuals most noticeable this throbbing sensation that visually looked like there was this purple/green strobe light like effect accompanied by a helicopter like whooshing noise. Everything seemed to stutter a lot similar to salvia but it seems it was just that combo since after smoking it today while having tome to be more clear headed it feels a lot more natural and those tryptamine/synthetic effects aren't noticeable.

 I have a longer stemmed pipe and sticking a couple inches of the stem into my mouth so the smoke enters at the back of my throat and passes my mouth helps a lot to avoid that nastiness. I know it is still in my throat/lungs and it just doesn't seem healthy.... Does anyone have experience with other methods of smoking or making a simple bubbler or something with an oil/meth pipe? It seems the vapor condenses easily already onto everything it touches so I wonder if water is a bad idea...

What about other ROAs for this stuff? I like it a lot I would just like a cleaner feeling way of taking it. Using that pipe just feels really shady among other things although using a gas stove to heat the pipe is great. You can really get that thing going easily and get a lot of the residue instead of fucking with a torch lighter...


----------



## Coolio

Sega420 said:


> bump ffs.
> 
> 
> 
> could the thread be renamed to "JWH & other synthetics thread" ?



I hope not. Each chemical needs a separate thread; there's nothing that you can discuss that applies to 'JWH & other synthetics' across the board. It's not even appropriate to shorten JWH-018 to 'JWH' as you just seem to have. They're all individual drugs with different pharmacology and to be at all relevant and at all in the interest of harm reduction, need to be discussed separately. If someone is talking about one chemical, what they're saying won't necessarily have any application to someone researching a different one.


----------



## mullins

*jwh-018 BAD!!!!*

I can tell you right now this drug is not one to be tied up in!!! i first started it as an alternative to pot because of my line of work....  first it took only small amounts of it to get me stoned to the bone... but my tolerance grew rapidly, way faster than with mj.... i smoked more and more... some times 3 grams of the herbal blends at a time... when i would o.d. on this drug i would fill my heart raceing, like i was haveing a heart attack, strong faves of fear, anxiety, and unwellbieng.  im 4 mnths into it now... it is addictive. i have trouble sleeping at night. after i smoke i pass out like with weed. but after 3-4 hrs i wake up from it in the middle of the night with a meth like high and cant go back to sleep..... i  twitch and shake uncontrollably through out the day untill i get home and get some in my system... 

theres been times that i have smoked too much and have suffered ptsd for days after... the trips can be so intense and terrifying at times. swearing to yourself your never gonna smoke it again if you make it through this high alive. but as soon as its over and your comeing down your first thought is burning another bowl.

maybe the addictive part of this drug is that if you smoke anough of it, for a couple hours you dont a a pro. in the world. because the only fn thing you can think about is how close you are to dieing.  

i am no scholar if you cant tell. i dnt have a great education, and im certainly no gd scientist.  but i know what i have experienced from this drug use!!!

my buddy has smoked it for 9 mnths hes not the same person. i would actually declare him mentally retarded now.  and this is slowly happening to me too... i forget so much shit. i say things that dont make sense. im confused alot. often i have to stop and think about where im at and what im doin... its just rly fucked me up... and i worry this may all be permanent damage done...

stay away from this drug! stick with mj!!!!


----------



## Coolio

Uh. Heavy marijuana use has all the same side effects you experienced. You're just using too much.


----------



## MescalitoBandito

Keeping in mind that jwh-018 is 4-5 times more potent than thc, you would have to smoke an ungodly amount of weed to reach a high equivalent to even 5mg.  

Oxy, I find that chasing the dragon works best for me.  However, I have a lot of experience smoking tar dope and fentanyl so that may be why.


----------



## Oxymorphone

How do you guys measure your doses? Cheap mg scales don't work well that low so i have been grabbing a bit from the bag with tweezers that looks like 5mgish. I have gotten very high and no panic attacks or any feeling of taking too much. Time to smoke some now.


----------



## kayenta

MescalitoBandito said:


> Keeping in mind that jwh-018 is 4-5 times more potent than thc, you would have to smoke an ungodly amount of weed to reach a high equivalent to even 5mg.



Why is that? I get as high off one or two of what I would call normal-sized joints as I do off ~5 mg JWH-018, if it's good weed.


----------



## mecaib

Oxymorphone said:


> How do you guys measure your doses? Cheap mg scales don't work well that low so i have been grabbing a bit from the bag with tweezers that looks like 5mgish. I have gotten very high and no panic attacks or any feeling of taking too much. Time to smoke some now.



I use a tiny plastic spoon cut from the rim of an ice cream bucket. Once you have a strip of plastic, you can heat up the end of a small piece of wire and then bore into the end of the plastic strip to make a miniature bowl. Be careful not to bore it all the way through the strip.

The diameter of the bowl is approximately 2mm wide at the top, and about 1mm deep. I don't have a ruler at hand, so I'm guessing. The point is that it's very small. Here's a magnified picture of the spoon:






Then it's  just a matter of dipping the spoon into your stuff and leveling it out. It will take a few tries to find your comfort zone. If your 018 is of a consistent quality, you should be able to measure reasonably accurate doses.

Also, the powder will try to stick to the plastic. I usually flick the end of the spoon gently over the vaporizing device until the spoon is empty.

I hope this helps!

P.S. Does anyone know how to keep an attached image from resizing itself?


----------



## psood0nym

Oxymorphone said:


> How do you guys measure your doses? Cheap mg scales don't work well that low so i have been grabbing a bit from the bag with tweezers that looks like 5mgish. I have gotten very high and no panic attacks or any feeling of taking too much. Time to smoke some now.


I typed in milligram scales in google shopping and this $31.29 0.001g scale was the first result:

http://dawnsearlylightllc.com/Ameri...froogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=froogle

A friend has a cheap one like it and it consistently weighs the calibration weight accurately as well as repeated weighings of the same low mg dose of a chem so long as he keeps the batteries fresh.  Sometimes he has to wait like 10 seconds to get a final reading, but the reading is always the same for the same thing.


----------



## Help?!?!

^You can't trust those cheap scales for strong doseage curves. To the guy talking about making a spoon from an ice container I just use one of those mcdonalds coffee spoons. Its the perfect size to fit in vials and its easy to eye things like 018 after you become familar with doing so of course.


----------



## psood0nym

Well, you could certainly weigh out 10 mg and divide the amount into ten piles of jwh-018.  It may not be as accurate as we'd like, but given that one doesn't have access to a better scale and a cheaper one still passes the calibration and low-weight test/re-test tests I'd sooner trust it than the McDonald's spoon measuring method!

Edit: You could also weigh out an amount you trust your cheap scale to weigh and then use a liquid measuring technique, but with acetone. For example, dissolve 20 mg of jwh-018 in 1 cc acetone and suck it into a syringe. Squirt 0.1 cc of the solution into each of 10 little aluminum foil "cups".  After it evaporates you have 10 2mg  doses ready for vaporization.  You'd actually save time this way in the long run, not to mention reduce risk of "the fear".  Human perceptual judgments, especially when already impaired, are notoriously unreliable.


----------



## smson_420

Well, crap. . . . . I just ordered the stuff. . . 



I don't know how reputable the source was, but it looked good and had good feedback+it was cheap.


I would have stuck to my K2, but noooo. . . . . I am allergic to it. I smoked it straight every day for 2-3 weeks(just once a day, maybe a bowl at most). All the sudden I started coughing up clear mucus non stop. . . I still am a little now. . . I have been coughing and spitting for almost 2 weeks now. . . So, I am selling the supply to the guy I work with, since he is the one that introduced me to this.



So, I wanted to try out the real chemical that is in the K2. . . Found it, and here I am.



So what is the methods you guys use. So far I seen it smoked like speed mostly. Any other good ways?

My idea was to get some Bugeler Tobacco and some Bugeler Tubes and make me a fake pack of smokes. Take the powder, dissolve it in (what I don't know), dip the tobacco and pack it in the Bugeler tubes. . . .


----------



## mecaib

^Just recently I successfully made an 018 cigarette. It's not difficult. All I did was pour some powder onto a smooth surface and rubbed/mixed the 'baccy into it until the 018 was more-or-less spread evenly throughout. I gave it out as a birthday cigarette, and the recipient enjoyed it immensely. It's a wasteful way to take it, but you can smoke it anywhere.


----------



## smson_420

Nice. . . . . . It is a bit of a wasteful method.

I wonder if a soak would work. . . . . Maybe some ever clear and some 018, then dip the smoke.


What methods do you suggest to use the 018?


The only thing I can think of is the ol' glass dick. . . But, I really don't want use one. I'll feel like a fricking tweaker.


----------



## Poodge

*JWH-018 Problems I'm Having*

Hello,
Sorry if this is fairly long, but I want to get all the info out here:

My hubby found out about JWH-018 online, and after doing a fair amount of research, he decided to buy it for me to try, since it seemed like weed, which I love, and was way cheaper and more efficient.

My History:  
I have been a binge pot smoker for the last several years--I will smoke for a good 2-5 days straight, and then not smoke at all for several weeks.  That's the way I've usually smoked, either out of necessity or habit.  I have experimented a moderate amount, mostly with hallucinogens and RCs.
I am currently trying to get a job somewhere that I know will piss test (b/c of the kind of work it is) and so I am very limited in how much I can smoke.  So I'm very limited with that.  
I start to get antsy when I go more than a couple of weeks without pot.  So to help me with that, we thought the JWH might be a good substitute, at least part-time.  

The Experiences:
I found the JWH-018 to be very similar to the pot I usually get, which I would say is good quality, but not great.  I have never lived anywhere that has legal medical pot, and I have rarely tried the "good stuff" because of budget constraints.  So I'm used to average quality, based on my own admission.  And this stuff started out like a really good kind of high.  The first few times I smoked it, once I was actually high, it was like a very clean, clear-headed pot high.
 	I did not experience any sort of "super high" or anything like what I had read about in trip reports on Erowid, which is where I usually do my research.  I watched TV, listened to music, did chores, ate when I had the munchies, had sex, and slept.  It was mostly like pot.  
The main differences I have noted after using the JWH daily (at least once a day, ranging from a couple of hours to all day) for about 2 weeks are as follows:
~more clear-headed (with the JWH)
 ~though I want it when I'm sober for a while, I don't have as much "need" to be on it again as I do with pot.  This translates to more self control, which applies in terms of eating and being productive (as with housework or exercise) as well.
~less paranoia (with the JWH)
~a little less tolerance than pot maybe.  If I smoked pot for this long (which I could never do) my tolerance would be horrible.  At this point I'm smoking about 3 times as much of the JWH as when I started I think.
The Problems:
I have had problems with this from the start, in spite of being mostly satisfied with the high.  The first problem I have is that, while it’s a pretty good pot high, I’m not like baked out of my mind like I expected to be.  I have had no hallucinatory effects.  I haven’t tripped in any sense of the word.
I don’t have a scale.  My hubby bought one on Ebay but when we got it, it turned out to be a piece of crap.  It was broken or something.  So now I have to wait and see with that.  The amounts I have used started out around the amount that I have read about on several posts, which is about equal to that of a few grains of salt.  That did nothing.  Then I tried doubling that, and doubling it again, and I think that is when I finally got something.  Since I started, the amount I use at a time has increased to about half the diameter of a pencil eraser.  I imagine that’s probably like 10x the dose I have read about, so somewhere between 10-20 mg.  I can use a little less but then I have to repeat the dose in about half the time, or half an hour instead of an hour on a larger dose.
	Because of the large doses I have had to use, my husband thinks there has to be some sort of problem with our method.  We came to that conclusion because we believe it to be a pure sample (since you can’t say anything about sources, I’ll just say it seems trustworthy).  The only other thing we think is that there could be a problem with me, some sort of body chemistry thing.  But most drugs seem to work fine on me, and it is having an effect, after all.
	We have tried a range of methods.  The first night I tried the stuff, we first tried putting it on the metal screen in a (fairly) clean small glass pipe that I normally use to smoke pot in.   It just melted through the screen (remember that at that point we were using an amount that was probable a mg or so).  I put a bit of plant material (I used dried oregano, which I consider to be an inert agent) onto the screen, and put the JWH in a little pile in the center.  I smoked it like that repeatedly, experimenting with various amounts of plant material and how close to hold the lighter (at that point I was using a BIC).  It worked pretty well but I had to use a fairly large amount.  My husband thought that might be because the flame was touching it and therefore destroying the JWH chemical somewhat.  I tried smoking it out of a light bulb the next day to avoid touching the flame to it, but the light bulb turned black and melted a little in one spot.  I got a bit of vapor, but mostly we couldn’t see what was happening after it turned into liquid because the light bulb was all black on the bottom!  So I went back to smoking it out of my pipe.  
My husband bought a fancy torch lighter (miniature hand torch) online and I started using that after it got here.  I tried putting my plant material onto the screen in my bowl, putting the JWH on top, and putting a bit more plant material on top of that.  Then I could hold the lighter close to the bowl without it touching the JWH or the plant material very much…although I did smoke all of it after attempting to vaporize.
	After a week or so of that, I found that I was needing more to get an effect, and I got tired of smoking oregano.  I tried several ways to vaporize with aluminum foil, but the foil kept getting holes burned in it.  Eventually I came upon a way that worked pretty well, and I have been using that method for the last 4 days or so.  I put a little piece of aluminum foil into my bowl, making it conform to the shape of the bowl, and used something like a toothpick to puncture a circle of holes around the sides, so that the bottom is solid with nowhere for the liquid to go (ideally).  Then I laid my screen on top of the foil and put the JWH on the screen.  I hold the flame so that it points sideways over the top of the bowl, which is just close enough to melt the JWH.  Once it melts through the screen (and I can tell by the taste that much has vaporized) I bring the lighter gradually closer.  Once I have taken a big hit that way, I take one or two more by pointing the flame into the bowl and using the screen as a sort of barrier.  That way, I find I have to use less (about half as much as before), and no smoke to inhale (just vapor).
	Today we got our meth-style glass pipe in the mail (simple tube with a bulb on one end that has a hole in the top, to drop the chemical through).  I have been trying to use it with little success all afternoon and am now very frustrated.  I have been dropping small amounts of the JWH (ranging from the “few grains of salt” size or a little larger to about 5x that size) into the bubble, then holding my torch lighter next to it so that it melts the JWH.  That is where I’m starting to have problems.  The melted JWH begins to climb up and all around the bubble of the pipe, and even into the stem, and it becomes a process of chasing it around with the lighter, trying not to burn myself, and constantly inhaling.  It’s really hard to see where the little droplets (which inevitably split up into smaller and smaller droplets) end up, and I end up smoking for a couple seconds while I light it, then stopping to look for where the liquid went, then smoking for a few more seconds…and I do this in a loop for like 5 minutes, at the end of which I still have droplets inside my pipe and I’m dizzy and out of breath from having to inhale for so long!  
	I have gone back to my aluminum-foil, screen, and lighter method, but am now worried about how much it’s using for health reasons as well as it being monetarily wasteful.  I wanted this to be a long term substitute for pot (at least while I’m looking for a job in my field, which could be weeks to months, and have to worry about piss testing).  And my husband believes there’s no need for pot when there’s a cheaper and more legal alternative.  
So are there any answers regarding my various issues??  (I do know I need to buy a scale.  But for now we’re going off of the presumption that 1mg=a few grains of salt.  So no shit about that, ok?) Thanks people!
	Any help is really welcome and very much appreciated!!!


----------



## greenmeanies

Go back to chasing it on foil. Do not use a torch lighter, because with foil VERY LITTLE heat is necessary. Shape the foil into a little boat, this will help with aerodynamically channeling the vapor up in a single trail for you to inhale. Have a friend hold the lighter under the foil, and ideally you should NOT touch the flame to the foil. it will heat up quickly and the liquid jwh will pool in a single spot. as the foil heats up, tilt it back and forth so the liquid will run across the foil. it will vaporize as it hits fresh hot foil. i bet you will find that you need much less jwh with this method.

with your experience using the meth pipe, just imagine how much JWH is caked on the inside of your weed bowl!


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## smson_420

Still, any thought of trying to dissolve it in strong alcohol then soak stuff in the alcohol?


----------



## greenmeanies

acetone will work better than alcohol. either way, be sure you are 100% evaporated before you spark up! 

however, joints are a notoriously ineffective method of smoking jwh. as many have noticed, the vapor quickly condenses on any cold surface, including the inside of a pipe or the unburned plant matter in a cigarette. I would estimate that only 20-30% of the JWH in a joint actually gets delivered to your lungs, with the rest condensed in the roach or on your lips. of course, it's cheap as shit so who cares


----------



## smson_420

greenmeanies said:


> acetone will work better than alcohol. either way, be sure you are 100% evaporated before you spark up!
> 
> however, joints are a notoriously ineffective method of smoking jwh. as many have noticed, the vapor quickly condenses on any cold surface, including the inside of a pipe or the unburned plant matter in a cigarette. I would estimate that only 20-30% of the JWH in a joint actually gets delivered to your lungs, with the rest condensed in the roach or on your lips. of course, it's cheap as shit so who cares



LoL. . . . So really, the foil?

Man that is ghetto. . . LoL


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## greenmeanies

well jwh is pretty ghetto by itself, so either you waste a ton of it and roll cigs with it, or you tweak it off foil 

i haven't tried it yet, but ideally hot knife hits should work perfectly with jwh too. just place 5mg of jwh on knife A. heat knife B on electric stove (use an oven mitt!) and squish the JWH between the two knives. be ready with a funnel to catch the cloud of vapor.


----------



## hyp

Lol to everyone talking about "feeling like a tweaker"

News flash, you are pretty much free-basing weed here, alright. There's no smoke circle, no "puff-puff-pass." It's just "vape-suck-done." 

This is the crack of weed and people just need to face that.

Sooner I did, the better I felt. :D


----------



## smson_420

LMAO. . . . All true


----------



## Roose

ideas for new thread title: JWH - The crack of weed


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## greenmeanies

Weed Crack - AKA This Shit Is WACK(tm)


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## smson_420

LOL. . . . . Well, hell. . . . Got me a nice glass dick for when my weed crack gets here.



I noticed people say it is so cheap. I think it's kinda pricey, 1gm for 50 Bucks. 


Unless you all have a "special" supplier of some sort.


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## Coolio

Are you joking? 1 gram is equivalent to like $500 of marijuana, maybe.


----------



## golden1

I use a flat ended soldiering gun.. just put some grains on, pull the trigger, wait 7 seconds,  and inhale. My only worry is that it gets too hot, but I stop it once it starts vaporizing so I doubt its
getting much hotter than a flame.


----------



## smson_420

Coolio said:


> Are you joking? 1 gram is equivalent to like $500 of marijuana, maybe.





I really could not figure out how much a gram was.


----------



## mecaib

Poodge said:


> I have gone back to my aluminum-foil, screen, and lighter method, but am now worried about how much it’s using for health reasons as well as it being monetarily wasteful.
> <snip>
> Any help is really welcome and very much appreciated!!!



OK, here's the device I use (click image for full size):





The aluminum foil is two sheets thick. You should only have to flick the flame lightly under the bowl for the JWH to vaporize. I do not suggest using a torch lighter. A normal lighter is sufficient, and won't melt the aluminum when used as described. It may take a few tries to fold the aluminum so as to avoid making wrinkles. It's best to have the bowl as smooth as possible so you know what's happening to your stuff.

Notice the small ridge in the bowl near the tube. This is to keep the JWH sequestered until it can vaporize completely.

The tape should be kept well away from the bowl, so you don't burn or melt it.

The metal tube can be anything. I personally use a cut radio antenna. It's Tweaker Technology, I know, but it works just fine


----------



## smson_420

I smoke my weed crack in style. . . . .


----------



## greenmeanies

mecaib, nice device. one thing i would suggest is actually a NON-metal tube for the vapors. since jwh condenses quickly on any cold surface (like glass or metal), you may be losing a bit of vapor on the inside of your tube. cardboard works great for me.


----------



## Tuneman

lol, I really enjoy JWH but man after seeing those pipes you guys are using I feel like I have been smoking crack


----------



## smson_420

That bad boy only cost 8 Bucks at the local smoke emporium in town.


----------



## pxxexxs

*stop b*tching*

I Wish you guys would stop and think for a second you are inhaling smoke into your lungs any time you do that you have a risk of cancer no matter what it is but does that stop us from doing it no we still buy our packs of cigs every day. and we still smoke are pot whats the diffrence any time you take any form of a drug you are effecting your body in some way shape or form. nothing is suposed to be done in exese and if you just keep it to only every once in awhile you should be fine now the truth is we could get cancer because of the cars we drive and there fums but does that stop us from driving them no so whats the diffrence







Sorry if you dont agree but its my opinion


----------



## mecaib

greenmeanies said:


> mecaib, nice device. one thing i would suggest is actually a NON-metal tube for the vapors. since jwh condenses quickly on any cold surface (like glass or metal), you may be losing a bit of vapor on the inside of your tube. cardboard works great for me.



Thanks for the suggestion, but I started out using a plastic tube, but there was just enough heat applied each time to cause pyrolysis of the plastic. Paperboard, likewise, might slowly turn to char over time.

If a substantial amount of 018 condenses inside the tube I'll just get a pinch of mugwort or sage and push it through


----------



## mecaib

smson_420 said:


> That bad boy only cost 8 Bucks at the local smoke emporium in town.



How does it work for vaping 018? And how do you clean it...


----------



## smson_420

mecaib said:


> How does it work for vaping 018? And how do you clean it...




I don't see a reason for cleaning it. . . It does not get too dirty at all. . . Works fairly well. With about a 10th of a pinch I am ripped. . . .


----------



## TheAzo

I see alot of discussion on dissolving JWH-018 into everclear. 

The solubility of JWH-018 in everclear is poor. (I'd guess around 20mg/ml, didnt study too much)
The solubility of JWH-073 in everclear is even worse. (5-10mg/ml at room temp, almost insoluble at 0 C)

The solubility of JWH-xxx (and cp-55,940 & cp-47,497) in acetone is excellent. 

If you're going to be dissolving JWH-xxx into a solvent, putting it onto something (like something smokable) and letting it evaporate, acetone will work way the hell better than everclear. You can use less solvent, the surface tension is lower, and unlike ethanol, it doesnt make the herb you're putting it onto all soggy, it just evenly disburses in an agitated pile of herb. 
That was my experience with infusing smokable herbs with cannabinoids - ethanol bad, acetone good. You want to use ~1ml solvent+drug per 5g herbs, applied dropwise to the herbs with constant agitation - because herbs don't "like" acetone as much (as in, they do not absorb and hold onto it) as ethanol, acetone/cannabinoid solution gets transfered between individual pieces of herb with agitation. You do not ever want there to be puddles or anything like that in with the herbs - that will lead to uneven distribution, not to mention taking longer to evaporate. 

Obviously, make sure it doesn't still smell of acetone when you smoke it (i give it a couple hours).


----------



## weekend addiction

Happy Shaman Herbs makes a product called "Humboldt Gold." Does anyone know whats in it. (I assume JWH + other shit but want something more specefic such as which JWH or both etc.).


----------



## Tuneman

Never heard of Humboldt Gold but in the past few months it seems like there are a billion new "brands" out there. If they work they have JWH of some sort but no good way to know specifically what JWH or how much. Usually you can tell by the price- 10 bucks for a half ounce= probly not good, 30 bucks a G probly has the good stuff in it.


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## Coolio

There's no guarantee they have "JWH of some sort".

There are thousands of active cannabinoids out there.


----------



## weekend addiction

Coolio said:


> There's no guarantee they have "JWH of some sort".
> 
> There are thousands of active cannabinoids out there.



This is sketchy as fuck.


----------



## smson_420

All true. . . . So far, I think pure JWH is safest. . . . I guess, compared to the rest.


----------



## weekend addiction

smson_420 said:


> All true. . . . So far, I think pure JWH is safest. . . . I guess, compared to the rest.



That is assuming what you get is pure JWH....


----------



## OxycontinAnonymous

haha yeah I'll admit I tried this one without researching it, probably a bad idea.  The guy told us the dosage so I knew what I was doing.  This stuff has no cross tolerance with weed so I got high as hell.  I had to go on a mission to the otherside of town and was paranoid hardcore for the whole mission.  If I hadn't been on an illegal mission it wouldn't have been that bad though.


----------



## RaverOnARoll

greenmeanies said:


> Go back to chasing it on foil. Do not use a torch lighter, because with foil VERY LITTLE heat is necessary. Shape the foil into a little boat, this will help with aerodynamically channeling the vapor up in a single trail for you to inhale. Have a friend hold the lighter under the foil, and ideally you should NOT touch the flame to the foil. it will heat up quickly and the liquid jwh will pool in a single spot. as the foil heats up, tilt it back and forth so the liquid will run across the foil. it will vaporize as it hits fresh hot foil. i bet you will find that you need much less jwh with this method.
> 
> with your experience using the meth pipe, just imagine how much JWH is caked on the inside of your weed bowl!



As far as smoking JWH-018, I use a method that I discovered in the late 1970’s to smoke hash oil. That method is smokeless charcoal, also known as incense charcoal or hooka charcoal. The charcoal comes as a round disc that measures approximately 1.25” x  .375”. This can be lit as a whole or broken into smaller pieces. The charcoal is self-igniting. A flame touched to its surface will begin sparking across the entire surface that lights the charcoal without having to add hydrocarbons to induce flame like your backyard charcoal grill. The charcoal burns very clean with no smoke or odor and leaves only a very fine ash.  I use an Exacto knife to drop the JWH-018 onto the hot coal and a glass tube held close to the coal to inhale. In this method the JWH-018 is 100% completely vaporized with no residue left whatsoever.  Smokeless charcoal can be bought online and is inexpensive.  I paid $7.50 for 30 discs that can be broken down into 120 quarter-disc pieces. For this reason, this method of smoking is sometimes referred to as "the poor man's vaporizer".


----------



## Sentience

Coolio said:


> On the subject of the relative risks of lung cancer from smoking drugs, I hereby recommend everyone who is a tobacco smoker switch to organic tobacco. Even the US Surgeon General C. Everett Koop admitted over 90% of lung cancers in smokers were due to the radioactive decay of lead and polonium isotopes introduced into tobacco trichromes by phosphate fertilizers derived from apatite ore, and not because of the intrinsic dangers of tobacco smoke.




I have heard this as well. The leaf is like a magnet for heavy metals. You ARE getting more cadmium and lead when you smoke non organic tobaco. Whether those heavy metals are the chief reason for cancer is debatable, but its not very good for you. 

In tobacco, organic makes a gigantic difference.



As far as JWH, just how bad do you think this stuff is? Is it worse than tobacco or safrole?


----------



## Sentience

As for smoking methods, why dont people make a diluted freebase?


----------



## Sentience

greenmeanies said:


> acetone will work better than alcohol. either way, be sure you are 100% evaporated before you spark up!
> 
> however, joints are a notoriously ineffective method of smoking jwh. as many have noticed, the vapor quickly condenses on any cold surface, including the inside of a pipe or the unburned plant matter in a cigarette. I would estimate that only 20-30% of the JWH in a joint actually gets delivered to your lungs, with the rest condensed in the roach or on your lips. of course, it's cheap as shit so who cares




What kind of alcohol do you need? I prefer non toxic methods. Would ethanol work?


----------



## try or die

swim thinks this shit is bogus its way worse than weed. they should just make weed legal so we don't need this shit anymore. Louisiana along with other states are about to ban it because it "has effects similar to marijuana" and to tell you the truth it is nothing like it. swim smoked some and it made swims chest hurt and swim couldn't breath heart racing and burning.all over the southern US this shit is sold in incense at gas stations.swim don't think the supreme being likes the fact that his number one plant has been fowled by a synthetic impostor made by a man. to each his own y'all but be careful with this shit  >(  you never know how much is in said products.

me thinks its stupido. smoke some nugs and be happy


----------



## stuckinaloop

smson_420 said:


> All true. . . . So far, I think pure JWH is safest. . . . I guess, compared to the rest.



if you have a reliable source, an accurate scale, & a brain - YES



try or die said:


> swim thinks this shit is bogus its way worse than weed. they should just make weed legal so we don't need this shit anymore. Louisiana along with other states are about to ban it because it "has effects similar to marijuana" and to tell you the truth it is nothing like it. swim smoked some and it made swims chest hurt and swim couldn't breath heart racing and burning.all over the southern US this shit is sold in incense at gas stations.swim don't think the supreme being likes the fact that his number one plant has been fowled by a synthetic impostor made by a man. to each his own y'all but be careful with this shit  >(  you never know how much is in said products.
> 
> me thinks its stupido. smoke some nugs and be happy



so fuckin annoying, we don't use swim, notice that?


----------



## jaguraguguru

Hey stuckinaloop, it's his first ever post, give him a break! But yeah, try or die, we don't use SWIM here. If you want an explanation for why, there are several different threads about why we don't use it here (or any other types of abstractions like my pet whatever). Anyways, everyone's reactions to drugs are different. Some people really enjoy JWH-018 and that's fine, some people should just stick with cannabis. Whatever floats your boat.

In any case, welcome to Bluelight


----------



## smson_420

Well, shit. . . .It's 100% official I have some sort of an allergy to JWH.


I smoked the k2 crap for a few weeks and it gave me a cough from hell. So I stopped smoking that nonsense BS.

I got JWH-018 instead. I smoked just a tiny bit. Still seemed to have a cough, nothing too bad.


Last week, I hit this crap hard. . . . Maybe smoked about 5mg. I woke up in the middle of the night coughing my lungs out. I mean I coughed so hard I puked. . . . . . Yup, I am allergic to it. . . .  Great, oh well. . . . . I shouldn't be doing this shit anyways.



I will stick to light drinking. . . . . . Sure wish I can smoke real weed. . . . Fucking work.


----------



## jeezits

Sorry this is so long.
My friend Tom has vaped tons of this stuff for the past 2 months, and he’s currently trying to quit because it kind of took him over for a while, and turned him into a depraved vegetable who lived for the 018 high.  Some background info:  Toms is 26 years old, 6’6 and 300lbs.  He has been a daily cannabis smoker for a little over 10 years.  In the past, he has experimented heavily with LSD, shrooms, salvia, alcohol. He’s tried cocaine and opiates a handful of times or less.  These days, all he does is smoke cannabis/hash 3 times every evening and has maybe 6 beers a week, that is until two months ago, when he discovered jwh-018.

So he hears about 018 in mid February and is very interested.  He figures maybe this will save him money on his cannabis habit, plus he is very eager to experience the powerful high of pure 018.  He has quite the tolerance to cannabis, and wanted to see if the 018 will make him high like it’s his first time again, like so many have claimed.  

So he gets 1 gram from a confirmed reputable vendor. He eyeballs all his doses (which is really a terrible idea!).  He’s very careful at first, taking a series of underdoses, but with a little practice, gets the hang of it, and is able to eyeball an enjoyable dose and take it down in 1 inhalation.  He loves this substance.  The first day he does it 5 times, and the next day he does it 7 times.  He feels like a 13 year old, smoking that first joint.  He is achieving trance like states, and loves it.  He hasn’t been able to achieve such a high from cannabis in years, and the only way he can even come close is to smoke and smoke, but with this it’s just 1 small hit. 

Almost immediately, he feels like there is something not quite right with this drug.   He loves it and it feels almost magical like cannabis….beneficial even.  Makes him happy, curbs his anger, makes him extremely tolerant and empathetic towards anyone and anything, it gives him major inspiration and sparks of creativity when he’s playing his guitar.  Still, he wakes up craving a hit in the morning, sometimes even in the middle of the night.  That never happened with cannabis in over 10 years.  Nevertheless, he loves it and orders 5 more grams.  The more he uses it, the more his tolerance rises.  And that’s when the effects change.  

When he first started using 018, it was like an impossibly strong cannabis high.  Over time, it became more of a nodding off, junkie type high.  And once that happened, it was like a different person took over him and was now calling the shots.  That first gram lasted him 20 days, but then he vaped 3 grams over the course of the next 15 days so that’s roughly 200mgs every day.  By this point, he’d acquired a meth pipe, and at first it seemed less effective than foil, but with a little practice, he learned that it was much more effective.  By the time his evening dose rolled around, he required so much that he would just fill his lungs with 018 vapors completely full and hold his breath as long as possible, and take several of those hits in a row.  3, 4 or even 5.  FILLING his lungs 5 times and burying it, and he has a huge lung capacity.   By this point he was essentially vaping 018 like it was mid-grade cannabis.   But those really trippy, initial psychoactive effects kept eluding him, so he just kept smoking more, and part of him didn’t even care anymore since he was such a nodding off, junkie type person now.  

He was passing out at all hours of the day, in front of family and friends.  People were taking notice, and becoming concerned.  He was slurring his words, kinda like a drunk, but much faster and scattered, like somebody who can’t hold onto a simple thought.  This kept getting worse, and eventually he was consuming amounts that would turn him into a physical wreck.  Could hardly walk, had no coordination. Could hardly say 3 words.  Muscle spasms.  His eyes would get really dilated for very short periods of time.  He’d take his last hit at night and then he couldn’t even manage to get the bag of 018 back in his drawer and close it, because he’d go catatonic too fast, or he’d forget who or where he was or what he’d just been doing.  And keep in mind, this wasn’t 1 negative reaction.  Tom was doing this to himself every night, and it was only getting more out of hand.  

He wanted to stop so bad, because he knew what a wreck he was.  He kept trying to stop, but he still had over a gram left so it was really difficult.  Weed and hash REALLY didn’t work now.  He knew that if he kept on the way he was, his gram+ would be gone very quick, but that thought scared him even worse because he knew he’d never order more. 

His mom confronted him, and he knew it had to stop.  He was genuinely scared, with the kinds of physical symptoms he was experiencing.  He could hardly walk, and felt so paralyzed by the end of each night, that he was afraid he’d die in his sleep. He felt really stupid for pushing such a new drug so far, and that made him feel very isolated actually, like his problems were 100% his, and there was not 1 other person in the history of mankind who could understand.  He felt like if there was ever a first person to die from this, it would be him.  For at least 4-5 days straight he made a genuine effort to pack it away, but then he’d end up doing some.  Still, this helped him cut back because he was trying so hard to stay away from it. He was even doing silly things like trying to put it in places where it would require a serious effort to retrieve.  

So he kept trying and failing to quit, but then 1 day he finally managed to stay away from it.  That was recently and today is day 5 of no 018 for Tom.  Cannabis still didn’t work all that well as of yesterday, but it seems to be working a little better each day. He’s been having some drinks at night to take the edge off. He doesn’t feel like there is much physical dependency to 018, but he definitely feels like he got pretty hooked nonetheless.  

Part of him wishes he’d never touched Jwh-018, and the other part of him is just hoping he can abstain long enough for his tolerance (to 018 and cannabis)  to come back down.  He wants a low tolerance again so he can experience the positive and worthwhile effects, without all the negative stuff that happened.  Hopefully in a couple weeks, his tolerance will be down, and his plan is to then use 018 much more sparingly, like once or maybe twice a week.  Hopefully, he can stick to that.   

Sorry for the length of this. There are certain other details to Tom’s experience that are worthwhile to note, but then this would be even longer.  But just this one last snippet.  Towards the end of the 2 months, when Tom was taking insanely high doses, right before he’d get to the point of being able to do nothing but sit or lay down and lose a few hours, some of the last stuff he’d remember would be all kinds of objects speaking to him telepathically.  It was like a flood, as soon as he got to that certain high, every object around him that his mind could perceive would speak to him and he would involuntarily respond….not out loud but in his mind.  Just an overwhelming flood of remarks coming from all around his room, and he had to respond to each one.  He associated it with discomfort, although he never had a panic attack.  He’d sober up and forget about all of it, but then the next time he did a huge dose, it would come rushing back, and he’d think “oh yea that’s right, I forgot.  Stuff starts talking to me and it’s unpleasant.”    His lighter, meth pipe, scooping utensil, floor, shoes, they all started talking to him in rapid fire.  

Then again, he did A LOT of psychedelics in the past, which by his own admission, could have played a big roll in his jwh-018 experiences.   And he has always been a boundary pusher which is why he likes psychedelics instead of hard drugs.   If you’ve been vaping jwh-018 daily and you think to yourself, “I could do a little more this time,” it might be time to pack it away for a while.


----------



## stuckinaloop

Wow..you really know "Tom" well. You sure you aren't him?



jeezits said:


> Sorry this is so long.


----------



## Help?!?!

Sounds like a unique experience. I've smoked over 200 mgs a day(not by much) with a low tolerance before and didn't experience any problems. I have also smoked around 3 grams in a month and then stopped once it was gone with no problems. For me JWH has acted similar to cannabis in effects, usage, and stopping usage.


----------



## stuckinaloop

Help?!?! said:


> Sounds like a unique experience. I've smoked over 200 mgs a day(not by much) with a low tolerance before and didn't experience any problems. I have also smoked around 3 grams in a month and then stopped once it was gone with no problems. For me JWH has acted similar to cannabis in effects, usage, and stopping usage.



if your usage is at 200mg a day or more 3 grams would last you less than 15 days...


----------



## jeezits

200mgs a day is inaccurate, and I should have worded that better.  200mgs/day would have been the average over 15 days.  However, his tolerance was on a rapid and steady climb throughout the entire time.  The first few days, he probably didn’t have more than 50-60mg.  That’s roughly how he started, approximately 10mg, 5 times a day.  This may sound a bit high to start, but he’s so big and has a huge weed tolerance.

There were days when he did 50mg, probably days when he did 80mg and 100mg.  What I know for sure is he did right around 3g in 15 days.  But since those earlier days were nowhere near 200mgs, that means the last days were WAY over 200mgs, like probably upwards of 400-500mgs, but definitely not much more than that.  And those were like the 3-4 worst days of abuse.  

Just thought I’d clear that up, and I apologize for the inaccuracy.


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## jeezits

The only numbers that can really be trusted are 1 gram the first 20 days, and 3 grams the next 15 days.  He had a crappy hand scale so he knew his gram was about 1 gram and his 5 grams were about 5 grams.  The rest is guess work.


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## Tuneman

That is simply an insane amount of JWH. 200 mg/day is just crazy- people have hit 10 or 15 mg and ended up in the hospital they were tripping so bad.


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## jaguraguguru

It sounds to me like this compound probably has anticholinergic effects at high doses like these. Those kinds of typical psychotic experiences where inanimate objects speak to you or you hold conversations in your head are often caused by anticholinergics. Interesting.


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## DiggerLove

*OK, so i didnt mean for this to be so long but i had alot on my mind*

Ok, so I signed up for this site, just to add my two cents to this whole "massive jwh 018 dosage" conversation. So, to begin, SWIM and his friends have been playing around with JWH 018 for around a month now, having tested various dosages, batches, methods of ingestion etc. The first batch (made of small white granules) seemed markedly less potent than the second (which was also white, but sparkly-er and more crystalline). SWIM, like "Tom" mentioned above, has had extensive experience with strong cannabis, and in the past used a considerable amount of psychedelics. 

OK, so on to the interesting part: While "average" doses are definitely sufficient to get everybody high, SWIM and many of his friends prefer smoking "large" or "insane" doses. This is not the effect of a tolerance building up, at least not to the drug itself, and seems to have more to do with a sort of mental preparedness, a tolerance to being fucked up in general  after so many years of intoxication.

All doses are eyeballed (I know...I know...), so exact mgs of dosages are unavailable to post, but my best estimate is something like 5-10 mgs seems to be what everybody in SWIMS group considers to be the "average" sized dose needed to get someone decently high.  That's usually good enough to get the people in the group who don't smoke very much satisfied. Most people who smoke daily, as far as SWIM has noticed, require at least double if not four times this amount to be in any way impressed with the substance and get really baked. SWIM and two or three of the more adventurous friends generally smoke even more than this in a sitting.......

SWIM one sunny day, did up a whole bunch of piracetam and aniracetam, got kinda drunk (swim drank fairly heavily on a daily basis at the time), and got some jwh 018 (the stronger batch) as he had not partaken in any in a week or two and wanted to try the new batch. after getting buzzed on a small-average dose, SWIM put it away and hung out for an hour or so, then went and did a significantly larger dose, then hung out for an hour or so, and then he decided to try a little experiment on himself (which he later admitted the stupidity of, but does not regret). SWIM set out to- no joke- overdose - not to a lethal degree (he hoped), but in attempt to replicate the, severely hallucinagenic panic attacks and shortness of breath effect he'd read so much about in hopes he could control it, roll with it, and in effect have an intense trip, and to begin establishing the safety of high dose jwh consumption on humans. Interestingly enough, marijuana at high doses tends to induce panic attacks in swim, however he smokes large doses of marijuana daily anyway (more than anyone else in his group), either drinking or coping with them, and from everything he'd found with his previous trials, this strategy worked fine to alleviate jwh anxiety.......

so into the foil spoon a went a large dose of the white powder and it was inhaled

followed by another large dose

followed by another large dose.

a break was taken to eyeball normal doses for other people who wanted to get high.. and in the 10 or 15 minutes this took....SWIM was really baked, beginning to have the peripheral visuals that signified a threshold "trippy" dose

So back to the foil SWIM went, vaping yet another large dose within a half hour of the first large dose.... this probably totaled somewhere between 40 and 70 mgs of jwh vaped within that hour......

But he wasn't done yet....

placing a small amount of good herb over the whole in his pipe, then simply pouring a little hill of jwh on top which amounted to at least the total amount he had smoked put together (another 50 or so mgs) and then covering the hill of jwh with more herb so it would protect the fragile powder from flame, he loaded yet another bowl.

this was smoked so that the flame never touched the herb, and the herb slowly heated and eventually began to glow and slowly heat the jwh underneath. SWIM said each hit tasted like JWH. SWIMs roommate was talking to him, waiting for swim to finish so that he could use the pipe... 

Somewhere at the end of the bowl time slowed down to a crawl and intense visuals overtook swim so quickly that he had to slowly put the pipe down, incapable of smoking anymore. SWIM described closed eye visuals as the most vivid he'd had on anything but LSD. Time was so distorted that SWIM could not tell how much time had elapsed in between the words of sentences he was speaking. The anxiety which he had become familiar with began to hit him...but he kept getting higher at such an alarming rat that he was unable to calm it......anxiety turned to panic..... Wondering if he had accidentally pushed JWH 018 too far, SWIM wandered around his apartment tripping balls and asking people who were staying with him to take his pulse.....most of these kids were far to fucked up on mushrooms and/or alcohol/jwh to accurately take a pulse (at least in the eyes of SWIM) and the one kid who tried came out with 35 bpm.... which SWIM asserted should have made him dead or at least unconscious, not panic stricken.... but he wasn't sure....time was playing tricks on him after all.... SWIM decided to wander out of his apt, and across the hall to a neighbors apt, embarrassing himself (thank god his neighbor is cool) and eventually getting his pulse taken accurately....78bpm.... SWIM was fine! 

Armed with this new and exciting knowledge that he was, in fact, not going to die, SWIM set about his initial intention of enjoying a canabanoid based psychedelic , which he did quite successfully: having vividly textured closed eye visuals in wildly pleasing colors which engrossed him to the point that he forgot his eyes were closed while describing the wonders of the high dose jwh experience to those in the room, having an intensely pleasurable body high, having no sense of time, and other such fantastic things, until he passed out feeling wonderful on his bed. 

the next day, he felt like he smoked too much pot the day before, taking another decent hit from the rest of the jwh bowl from the previous night cleared his head for the morning (hair of the dog...) and he decided to use most of the rest of his jwh stash to show the drug to friends who were interested, taking a break and saving only enough for 2 or three more very heavy doses once his tolerance dropped, because he decided that for daily getting high effects he prefers good old fashioned weed (jwh is too mind slowing to make it an effective day starter), but JWH may actually be what he's always been looking for in a psychedelic - short acting, potent, cannabis-like, sedating, visual, euphoric, reminiscent of LSD, no mind-warping after effects, and best of all YOU CAN GO TO SLEEP ON IT!

So a week passed and another large dose was smoked, not quite as large as the total dose from the aforementioned trip, but about as much as was in that massive final bowl- smoked it the same way (sandwiched in between pot) because he discovered it was easier to consume very large doses this way, and plus he wanted to add the jwh residue to the resin in what had been strictly a hash pipe (those resin hits are friggin killer btw)... he found himself rolling around on the bed like a cat, unable to form sentences for a few minutes but in a pleasurable way, with decent CEVs... not quite as high as the last trip, but the anxiety still became a bit troublsome (although he knew he was in no danger), drinking a beer or two brought him right back to enjoying himself and he climbed back into bed and fell asleep happy and had awesome dreams.

Smoking a slightly smaller dose the next day in the middle of the day, he found him self less high than the night before, but way way way more sedated..... no anxiety at all, and he could communicate fine, but for two hours he lay on the bed, awake but too high to move or care about moving... until he sat up to smoke pot with two pretty girls who came over.....


So my final words on all this are that I seriously with all my heart believe that it's impossible to die by smoking jwh018 for several reasons, the simplest of which is that smoking it would get you too high to keep smoking enough to die... SWIM pretty much tried. But in all honesty, I can't actually prove this.

Also, all of the Overdose reports involve things like racing heart rate while the theoretical way a person would die from this would be from respiratory or cardiac suppression.... which seems to be the opposite of the perceived effects... taking this into account,  all of the reports where people end up in the hospital sound almost exactly like your run of the mill pot freak out, only more intense...more like someone who ate too much ganja-food

The source of most peoples paranoia on these trips, including SWIM, seems to be the untested nature of the drug, a feeling that it could kill them or have some untold effect, all of which are generally really legit concerns when dealing with RCs. It would be great to have some more actual tests on this stuffs effects so people wont be so in the dark. If people knew this was something like THC or LSD where overdose was not a concern, only mental discomfort, then people like SWIM could drink a few beers, or pop a benzo, smoke a big ole pile of JWH, and trip face worry free (the way a trip should be).

A final word on eyeballing: I seriously feel like it's ok as long as you start ludicrously small for everyone's first dose... its not like its crystalline LSD, the threshold dose is definitely visible to the human eye, and in fact it's possible to eyeball too little, so by starting small, the worst thing you risk is getting a little too high the first time you try it, once you learn your dose, experimentation with raising it within reason seems for the most part safe, with the worst possible effects being a panic attack (at least until you start to get into the really high doses that swim took...) In the case of these super-high psychedelic doses... I would really love to see some data on just how much is safe, or at least some reports of fellow JWH users pushing the limits and enjoying it.

Remember- like all drugs (especially psychedelic ones) dose varies from person to person, and this seems to be especially true with this substance so always start small.


P.S. 

Does anybody else thinks that the texture/feel of the smoke is reminiscent of butane thc extractions..... even noticed that it can leave a stain on peoples teeth if they vape too much pure in one hit just like honey-oil


----------



## Help?!?!

stuckinaloop said:


> if your usage is at 200mg a day or more 3 grams would last you less than 15 days...


 Notice I never said it was at the time. I don't have a set "usage" amount and I don't smoke 018 that often. I just have smoked that much in a day. I suppose I should have made that more obvious but oh well. I do notice it leaves stains on your teeth I can always feel it after I smoke a good dose.


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## etardedadam

If you wanted to make a spice like product and you didn't want to mess with acetone couldn't you mix a known amount of Powdered plant material like Damiana with a known amount of JWH then mix it together thoroughly. They are about the same consistency. Would the resulting powder be hard to smoke?


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## MescalitoBandito

chasing the dragon isnt that hard, people


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## txern41

can anyone tell me if pulse incense contains jwh. i did my homework and i do not believe that it does.


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## Swimmer23

018 always surprises me, probably because I should be using a scale, although I'm just sprinkling it on some tobacco in a pipe. When I do put some on tobacco, the high is like weed in some ways. It makes me hungry, but not as much as weed. It makes me sleepy. It makes my body really heavy. It impairs my vision. It impairs my sense of time. It impairs my short term memory. And it makes music awesome, but not as well as weed does. So 018 really is like watered down weed in those respects, BUT!!!!!!! Do NEVER EVER underestimate this drug, it is not a cannabinoid, it just fucks with the CB1 and CB2 receptors, and more for CB2 which reflects the heavy body high you get. I've found doing one small bowl of tobacco with this stuff lightly sprinkled on, like salt, does the job for about 2-3 hours. I highly suggest you do this during the day or when you're not really tired. Because, when I've done it tired it seems to overwhelm me in ways I've never felt before. The body high should hit you right after you exhale your first hit, but the mental high creeps up on you, and before you know it, you'll find yourself in a HORRIBLE trip. The worst one I got was before I went to bed, I was fairly tired, it just seemed like my mind couldn't handle the high and was shutting down. I convulsed and shivered for a good hour, my breathing was erratic at best, my heart was exploding, and I was paranoid/paralyized. Have you ever had a plastic bag put over your face/head and tried to breathe? Well, it felt like someone had put a plastic bag over my brain and everything just flat-lined. This lasted for about an hour, although it felt like an eternity in hell. I've tripped as hard as you can on weed and I was prepared for this, and I was able to bring myself down. 018 is weird in this respect, because it can be very polarizing. You can feel extremely euphoric, to the point where you black out, and it can be extremely painful and stressful.

For some reason I've found that it naturally creates a lot of energy in your chest and upper body area, so if you are tripping bad on it I suggest you rug your legs and feet and especially your genitals. This will focus the high on your lower body and make you less paranoid and make your breathing more easy, your chest won't feel as stressed. 

Over all, my suggestion for using 018 (if you have to do it), in the pure white powder form, is to get it in a white color, rust color 018 is relatively impure, if you don't have a scale, sprinkle it lightly on some non-psychoactive herb, and just clear ONE bowl, wait at least 3-5 hours before doing more. And don't do more than 2 bowls in a day. And don't do it really tired!!!!    

Other info.
I've been using 018 for about two months. 
My weight is 140 lbs. 
My age is 21. 
My 018 is about 99% pure and very white. (smells like plastic and chemicals)

Final note: I do condone the use of 018, but I do believe it can be used with good results if used correctly. Please research this before trying, like any other drug. And finally, this is not weed, it's a completely different high, with a small margin for error.


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## Zardokk

Have to watch out with this one in the US. And this is going out to vendors as well as consumers. Be careful, the FDA/DEA/whoever is all over this stuff right now, and it's probably best to stock up one last time and try to avoid at this point. If you're not in the US, ignore all that.

Edit: Also regarding this compound, a friend a mine experienced several months of anxiety symptoms and panic attacks after doing a large dose of JWH-018 combined with LSD. He smoked a large amount of JWH while on the acid and had a panic attack that he was having a heart attack. For about 4-5 months after the even, every time he smoked weed, he clutched his heart and claimed to have the same "evil" feeling and damn near had a panic attack. Just some food for thought, fellow researchers.


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## stuckinaloop

I just wanna chime in and give a positive review.

I started smoking jwh-018 when I was worried about the smell of weed in my apartment. I did it for about 2-3 weeks until things blew over and I didnt have to worry about cops smelling weed or anything.

First I tried buying the herbal incense, K2 summit, and some other K2 brands. Aside from it not really tasting too good, it was not harsh, and a half blunt got me feeling like a full blunt of normal good weed. 

I got a 100mg sample of the pure jwh-018 and my friend weighed me out individual doses so I smoked that for a few days. It felt identical to smoking the k2 summit, just that you would take this tiny little hit and get the same effects.

I smoked multiple times a day every day for 2-3 weeks before switching back to weed. I never had any "bad trips." In fact, it felt a little more powerful then weed, but the feeling was pretty much identical IMO. I would get red eyes, get the munchies bad, and just chill watchin tv and shit. 

I would always make sure to cut my self off after a half blunt, and then maybe in an hour id smoke the other half. Sometimes I wouldn't be paying attention and smoke a whole blunt, there was a few times I experienced anxiety, similar to what I felt with weed (which was extremely rare).

But if you have a scale, the pure stuff is VERY cheap compared to weed and the blends. IMO it's cheaper smokin the blends then it is real weed. Weed just tastes SOO much better. And IMO, I love just blazing a whole blunt to the head and chillin being able to drive not b e ing high out of my mind..so once I didnt have to worry about anyone smellin the weed comin from my apartment, I switched back.

My experience with jwh-018 was good though. If I ever have to get UA's or for one reason or another I am DEFINITELY switching over to buying the pure jwh and making my own blend.


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## MTUSAMSO

*Baking Soda?*

Has anyone tried blending/cutting JWH-018 w/ sodium bicarbonate. I've read about so many people using the glass and it made think back to my coke days(long ago) where we used to smoke off of foil. It's basically crack w/o the ammonia stage. As soon as my stuff arrives in the mail I'll try making a slurry of sodium bicarb and JWH, I'll then smear that on a 3" x 3" piece of aluminum foil and let it dry. Once dry I'll be hitting the bottom of the foil with a lighter(not too much contact!) then inhaling the vapor with a straw. The sodium bicarb may or may not be necessary so I'll try it both ways. I would rate myself as an experienced drug user, never done anything IV but lots of everything else. I also work in the medical field so I'm thinking about bringing a pulse oximeter home to see what this does to O2 sats and heart rate.


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## Coolio

Why the fuck would you mix it with sodium bicarbonate? JWH-018 isn't an alkaline molecule, it doesn't form salts.


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## drscience

MTUSAMSO said:


> Has anyone tried blending/cutting JWH-018 w/ sodium bicarbonate. I've read about so many people using the glass and it made think back to my coke days(long ago) where we used to smoke off of foil. It's basically crack w/o the ammonia stage. As soon as my stuff arrives in the mail I'll try making a slurry of sodium bicarb and JWH, I'll then smear that on a 3" x 3" piece of aluminum foil and let it dry. Once dry I'll be hitting the bottom of the foil with a lighter(not too much contact!) then inhaling the vapor with a straw. The sodium bicarb may or may not be necessary so I'll try it both ways. I would rate myself as an experienced drug user, never done anything IV but lots of everything else. I also work in the medical field so I'm thinking about bringing a pulse oximeter home to see what this does to O2 sats and heart rate.



wtf guy


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## KaTIEE

*First time*

so i want to try jhw-018 and just want to make sure there is nothing i need to know before i do it. any tips?


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## Coolio

Don't do too much.


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## steveh420

*Strange experience with JWH-018 & JWH-073*

I just received my synthetic cannabinoids from an online store last week. After waiting impatiently finally I consumed both 18, 73 seperately, in combination & in combination with pot all last weekend (yesterday). All of these orally since I don't smoke because of my astma condition.

Here is the strange problem: it was been more than 24 hrs since I last consumed jwh-018 & 73 combo ... but the effect is still on. I am now at work place & I'm still high. Not high/stoned as in fun high but feeling very paranoidal along with the usual short term memory loss problem with loss of focus but full of empathy & creativity. 24 hrs guys !! ... is this something normal & these substances stay in system for long time? Obviously this post is written while high but from a dose taken yesterday morning.


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## MTUSAMSO

Coolio said:


> Why the fuck would you mix it with sodium bicarbonate? JWH-018 isn't an alkaline molecule, it doesn't form salts.



non herbal media to smoke on, I know it can be smoked. I really don't want  to smoke out of a bulb or meth pipe. Meth free for 10 years now, I'd like to keep it that way.


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## Burn it up

I just made a thread discussing about the carcinogenic properties of JWH-18, taking in account the naphthalene metabolism into epoxides and the quantity of naphthalene ingested when consuming JWH-18: Thoughts on JWH-18 carcinogenicity
They are just my speculations, but I think they are interesting.


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## Jwndy

Someone asked the question" Once you have made your solution, how long until the jwh-018 begins to decay? What is the best way to store the solution? 500 mg will last a while, so I need to know how to keep it just as it was when originally dissolved.
"

And Roose answered with "Search Engine Please"

Since I am also very interested in the topic of storage of JWH, I tried searching both Posts and Forums without finding any serious discussion of the long-term storage of JWH. I have a faily detailed question on this matter, and I would love to post it to the right forum. 

Can anyone give me a search string that will point me to the forum that Roose was thinking about with their reply?


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## Jwndy

Upon further reflection, I am wondering if Roose was referring to Internet-wide engines like Google, Bing, etc.  

I have searched all over the net, and I've found the following snippets (I appologize in advance for the plagerism).

“Indole compounds degrade by oxidation giving yellow and brown products. The more impurity results in intensity of the brown color and becoming a gummy like state (due to melting point suppression)”

"With all synthetic compounds, storage at temps below -20C limits molecular interaction....resulting in less degradation over time. Hence, if you want to keep it for more than a week or so, store it in the freezer in an airtight container with little shoe silicon packs to absorb water."

From a supplier in a methyl acetate solution: "For long term storage, we suggest it be stored as supplied at -20C (-4F).  It should be stable for at least one year"  I am not sure how much this one applies since everything normally available for purchase from most places is in powder form.

"Eventually you have a perfectly dissolved JWH solution (in Everclear) which can be stored in the freezer or fridge, in a liquor bottle or, even better, a white wine bottle with a screwcap (no cork!) works great. It will store indefinitely."

And the ubiquous: "I've kept mine in a plastic bag in my closet for 3 months and it was OK"

What I am is looking for is a way to maximize storage for a long term - like decades, if possible. Considering the stuff quoted above I have postulated two theories, but really need a chemist type to chime in and help us all understand synthetic cannibanoid breakdown at the molecular level. (I am not a chemist, in any way) 

Theory 1: Since Oxidation is the enemy of JWH-018, then storage in lots of little small glass vials (with no empty space between the powder and the cap/stopper to mimimize exposure to air) in your everyday stand-alone freezer would work. You would pull out individual vials when you need them, leaving the others undisturbed.

Theory 2: By melting the JWH in Ethanol, you eliminate its ability to oxidize because no air can get to the chemical once it is in liquid form. Putting the ethanol in the freezer is an added bonus that retards chemical processes.

I would love to know which of the above statements might be true (if either) and/or anyone's thoughts on the best way to maintain the potency over very long time spans (10-15 years)

If anyone can help, I would be humbly grateful.


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## qwe

about the poster with the pressure in his chest.... ive had that with weed....  ive never had an anxiety attack except for my very first high, though i haven't had that chest problem since forever so maybe it was related

i think it's just our perception of our bodies being cranked up to 11.  starts to feel weird yea?

can anyone summarize so i need not read 20 pages, how long does it last orally compared to eating and what is the dosage ratio smoking-to-oral?


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## greenmeanies

jwndy, i believe JWH-018 does not degrade appreciably at room temperature. there is nothing on the molecule itself that would make me think that it is air-sensitive.

edit: and as far as the 10-15 year span goes, why would you want to keep it that long? i'm sure by next year JWH-018 will be obsoleted by newer synthetic cannabinoids that give a cleaner high with no fears of carcinogenicity.


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## Jwndy

Thanks for the reply. The reason for the need for long-term storage is that I have a friend with active cancer, and the only relief he gets is from cannabis.  I also come from a family with a stong heredity for cancer.  We both live in a state that is on the cusp of making 018 illegal.  He and I basically went in together and bought a life-time supply of the 018 and 073 (we are both about 50 years old).  Based on the extensive research we have done, these seem to be about the closest to the real thing that we are likely to find. Our intent is to mix .5g of each wth 400 ml of Everclear (190) and administer 2-4 ml orally.  

While there may be synthetics in the future that may work well, the 018/073 are a known quantity with lots of "informal" (and even some formal) case studies.  I have been very satisfied with the results of my research, but about the only thing I can't find is a bona-fide chemist with an opinion on long-term storage. Surely there is one out there somewhere that shares our interest in the stabilty of these two wonderful substances over the long term.

Since I am not really able to use this often recreationally because of job, family duties, etc, it is likely that I will store the vast majority of it until I need it. Hopefully, I will never need it for the purposes I bought it, but if I do, I would hate to retrieve it only to discover that it is inert.  The laws in my state will likely make it hard to replace, thus my need to find the best way to store it with the highest likelihood of being able to benefit from it.  I realize that since the substance itself has only been around since 1995, and has only been on the market since about 2002, there probably isn't anyone out there that actually knows how long it will last. But a few educated opinions will give me some comfort.

Again, thanks for the reply.


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## stuckinaloop

Swimmer23 said:


> For some reason I've found that it naturally creates a lot of energy in your chest and upper body area, so if you are tripping bad on it I suggest you rug your legs and feet and especially your genitals. This will focus the high on your lower body and make you less paranoid and make your breathing more easy, your chest won't feel as stressed.
> 
> Over all, my suggestion for using 018 (if you have to do it), in the pure white powder form, is to get it in a white color, rust color 018 is relatively impure, if you don't have a scale, sprinkle it lightly on some non-psychoactive herb, and just clear ONE bowl, wait at least 3-5 hours before doing more. And don't do more than 2 bowls in a day. And don't do it really tired!!!!



I am sorry but this is really bad information. Telling people to sprinkle pure jwh on a bowl is just plain stupid. It's not like you are throwing some salt on your french fries.. you don't wanna overdue it. It's hard to eye out like 5mg..really hard.

Do not do this.

Also, I can't decide how to your comment about rubbing parts of your body to focus the high..especially the genitals... I gotto make sure I start rubbin my dick next time I smoke and see if my balls and surrounding area get high as a kite.


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## LeDieu

hi dudes this is my first post here and i hope there will be more to follow 

im thinking about ordering some cannabinoid like chemicals

which one would you say is the best? i've read about HU-210 which sounds very promising and looks like a real cannabinoid. then there are the jwh things which all contain napthalene this kinda worries me a bit due to the epoxy metabolism (carcinogen).

can you tell me something about the dosage of these chemicals and the ways of consuming it (i'd prefer orally).

i have a pretty good scale (.001g) and a lot of experience with weed and smoked spice (containing jwh-018) before so i know whats coming to me

ps: i hope you dont mind my english im trying hard but drug related things dont belong in my usual english vocabulary


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## Jwndy

You can find excellent info on soluability and dosage for smoking or oral at several sites.  The best are bluelight, drugs-forum, and sychronium, but the short answer is........

Get JWH-018 and JWH-073.  Put .5g of each in 400ml of 190 Everclear.  Stir and mash with a spoon. Takes about 15 min.  Do it until all dissolved.  You can heat in a hot water bath, but don't use a flame, but you shouldn't have to if you are patient. 1g (total) will disolve in 400 ml.  The strength will be 2.5 mg per 1 ml.  Use an insulin syringe to draw it 2ml-4ml and squirt into orange juice (or coke or water or whatever).  Drink and enjoy. 

Recommended smoking dose is 3-5 mg per high.  
Recommended oral dose is 5-10 mg per high. 

DON'T OVERDO IT.  If you don't get the high you expect, don't double dose. Wait until the next night and increase the dosage another 2.5 mg worth. The overdose effects are frightening. 

In fact, you should spend a couple of hours reading in the forums of the sites I mentioned before you do any of it.  There is lots of useful info available, and you will become highly eductated in a fairly short time with just a little bit of reading. 

There are lots of discussions on the carcinogenic effects.  I, for one, don't intend to do it more than a couple of times a week, so I'm not too worried about it. You build up a tolerance to it pretty quickly anyhow, so it is wise to space it out just to keep getting the same effects on a fairly small amount.


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## ABCDFG I Ate The E

I just got my JWH-018 in the mail today.

I already smoked some out of a bowl, and tryed using tinfoil and burning it from underneath and then using a bottle to get the smoke, and smoked it out of a ciggarete?

What is the most common/easiest/simplist way to smoke it?


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## synaestasia420

yeah same here just got a g of 99.8% white powder jwh-018 today and had problems using tinfoil & straw..the shit barely smokes and melts to a sticky resin..barely got a hit from that. tinfoil pipe didn't work well either, same problem with melting w/ small hit. after every pack i would eat a little bit too, felt like i was either immune to the stuff or just not using it right, maybe i just wasn't using enough. 

so finally i just put a decent amount on a small bowl of kush and kept the flame as far as possible, that worked perfectly and definitely tasted the chemical. and here i am typing this out, struggling to put these words together. i blew through a little too much


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## ABCDFG I Ate The E

yeah i found it does work in a bowl with tobacco/weed.  but i wish i could figure out a way so i can just smoke the stuff itself.  i feel like if im putting a flame directly onto it i feel im wasting it.


----------



## mecaib

If you are using aluminum foil, you need to first let the JWH melt into a puddle, and then *keep* applying the flame until the molten chemical vaporizes. If your JWH is pure, there should be no residue left on the foil.


----------



## MescalitoBandito

The foil method takes a little practice, but it's rewarding, because it's definitely the most efficient.  Make a little foil boat so the oil doesn't get away from the heat.


----------



## synaestasia420

mecaib said:


> If you are using aluminum foil, you need to first let the JWH melt into a puddle, and then *keep* applying the flame until the molten chemical vaporizes. If your JWH is pure, there should be no residue left on the foil.



ah i see, the residue i mentioned is actually that puddle which turns to a sticky glue when dry..i just haven't been burning it long enough.

how many times do you guys fold the aluminum? or do you just use the single layer?

i was fuckin up so bad with it yesterday, inhaled part of a melted straw and gave up right after..i'll never make a good tweeker.


----------



## MescalitoBandito

Haha, you'll get the hang of it....not sure what you mean by folding though.  I just make a little foil boat and dump the jwh at the bottom.  There should only be one layer of foil between the jwh and the fire.  If you do it right it will evaporate very quickly, one hit should be plenty.


----------



## synaestasia420

i had the foil folded over and tried vaping through the double layer..probably did that just out of habit from making tinners back in highschool..it definitely didn't help.

so i just made a little foil spoon and made an indent in the middle so it would stay in place, seems to work pretty well.

the smoke looks like a decent hit going in (easily 1-2mg i'm guessing), but i barely exhale any smoke. is that how this stuff usually smokes?

can't complain though, i've stuck to just using jwh today just to see the effects and i feel stoned beyond hell, really cotton mouthed too.


----------



## MescalitoBandito

yeah, it tends to be completely absorbed by the lungs if you hold it in long enough.  haha well enjoy man, just watch your doses.


----------



## amblerg

just gettin into jwh as i got a g. amazing stuff. the high is great.
at moderate-low doses. 
jwh is pretty amazing. the potency is great, a little bit goes such a long way. tho only pain in the ass about it is dosing. mild to moderate doses are nice, but every now n then I'll hit a pocket of hidden jwh oil in the pipe and get a decent weed high that like I have said is overwhelming. like when u smoke too mcuh it feels like one of the first time you blazed but it was an unpleasant time. if u ever got rocked from taking a huge bong rip of the besssttt tree u ever bought.


----------



## amblerg

injesting jwh is easy and tasty when done with a provape personal nicotine vaprozer or electronic cigarette.












sprinkle a lil bit of this inside, with some mocha flavored nicotine as well


----------



## ABCDFG I Ate The E

I'd just like to share my experience with using jwh-018

i went through a gram of it.

i found the high to be really similar to weed, but shorter lasting and, just felt "different".  all my friends said they couldn't really describe the difference.

it seems most people on here get panic attacks/anxiety from smoking this / smoking too much.

i smoked ALOT of it and LOTS at once, and never, not one time had any paranoia or anxiety, nor did any of my friends.

i just got really really high, like in a crazy pychedelic mind state.  never gotten that high from weed.

i really enjoyed it overall but don't want to keep smoking it due to long term health problems // like cancer!! lol


----------



## amblerg

Does anyone know if jwh-018 increases metabolic rates like cannabis does?


----------



## synaestasia420

i've had a great couple of weeks with this stuff and still have a decent amount left. i was a bit intimidated from reading the panic/anxiety issues, but just like someone said a few posts above: the more i smoke, the more it feels like a psychedelic trip.

sometimes i would get those racing thoughts that might lead to anxiety/panic just like in any other trip, but really i was able to push that aside easily. i think being experienced with other research chemicals & being a heavy cannabis smoker helps, i can see how someone who just dives straight into jwh-018 might run into some issues.

also just a warning for you heavy users. this guy another forum has been smoking jwh-018 exclusively for 1 & 1/2 years because he gets drug tested every week:



> I have a very very very low white blood cell count and the doctors can not figure out why a friend of mine who also smokes JWH-018 doctor said the exact same thing to him. I stopped smoking a month ago be careful!



i think this will be my last gram.


----------



## jigsawjameson

*best vaporizer?*

I'm looking to buy a whip vaporizer, but I want to make sure first that I can use it with JWH by itself. Are there any holes or crevices that JWH powder would fall through in the place you're supposed to put the herb in? Also, it would be a huge help if anyone could recommend a specific model, or let me know if a different style of vaporizer would work better. I'm thinking of buying a decent model ($130 range) that I can use with wild dagga and stuff like that, so this is going to be a hefty investment that I'd hate to screw up.


----------



## kroozer_*

The foil method was told to me by a friend to be wasteful. Though smoking it with tobacco is good. 

Substituted with a crack pipe and took a few killer hits of 018 and ended up puking and having rapid heart beat. Also friends noticed this too.

Vape is next. Though these effects have not felt off the other JWH compounds. 

Though since there are so many synthetic cannabinoids out there, much research is still yet to be accurately recorded imo. 018 is the only one that i will not do as the others seem not to create these adverse effects. 

Input?


----------



## jimgaffigan

synaestasia420 said:


> also just a warning for you heavy users. this guy another forum has been smoking jwh-018 exclusively for 1 & 1/2 years because he gets drug tested every week:
> Quote:
> I have a very very very low white blood cell count and the doctors can not figure out why a friend of mine who also smokes JWH-018 doctor said the exact same thing to him. I stopped smoking a month ago be careful!



What forum is this?  Because google doesn't return results.  Also why would 2 smoking buddies both have WBC counts run?  That's not exactly normal doctor visit stuff.  How much was he smoking?

I mean without context I find this kind of hard to believe.


----------



## ABCDFG I Ate The E

synaestasia420 said:


> i've had a great couple of weeks with this stuff and still have a decent amount left. i was a bit intimidated from reading the panic/anxiety issues, but just like someone said a few posts above: the more i smoke, the more it feels like a psychedelic trip.
> 
> sometimes i would get those racing thoughts that might lead to anxiety/panic just like in any other trip, but really i was able to push that aside easily. i think being experienced with other research chemicals & being a heavy cannabis smoker helps, i can see how someone who just dives straight into jwh-018 might run into some issues.
> 
> also just a warning for you heavy users. this guy another forum has been smoking jwh-018 exclusively for 1 & 1/2 years because he gets drug tested every week:
> 
> 
> 
> i think this will be my last gram.


yeah same here, i would get racing thoughts when it was kicking in and im thinking "oh shit this might be the panic attack coming on" but then once it peaked i was like.. "ok i'm pretty high but i could smoke another one right now"  i did that once for like 10 times, and got SUPER ripped like pretty much getting OEVS and CEVS, but the really high went away in about 20 minutes.


----------



## LeDieu

hi
018 and 073 are both illegal in germany but i can get my hands on 081 200 and 250. does anyone of you have any experience with these substances? which one did you prefer?


----------



## synaestasia420

jimgaffigan said:


> What forum is this?  Because google doesn't return results.  Also why would 2 smoking buddies both have WBC counts run?  That's not exactly normal doctor visit stuff.  How much was he smoking?
> 
> I mean without context I find this kind of hard to believe.



it's a private forum somewhere else, the same guy helped me obtain this stuff so i wouldn't mention it if i didn't believe him. i didn't find it hard to believe because CB2 is responsible for your immune system, so i posted it here as a -possible- warning for you heavy users as this is a harm reduction site.

he doesn't even smoke herb because he gets drug tested every week (either for court or a job, can't remember he mentioned it awhile ago). all i know is he went through about 1 gram every 2-3 months for 1 & 1/2 years.

not that i'm trying to discourage anybody, hell i'm still smoking it daily


----------



## jimgaffigan

synaestasia420 said:


> it's a private forum somewhere else, the same guy helped me obtain this stuff so i wouldn't mention it if i didn't believe him. i didn't find it hard to believe because CB2 is responsible for your immune system, so i posted it here as a -possible- warning for you heavy users as this is a harm reduction site.
> 
> he doesn't even smoke herb because he gets drug tested every week (either for court or a job, can't remember he mentioned it awhile ago). all i know is he went through about 1 gram every 2-3 months for 1 & 1/2 years.
> 
> not that i'm trying to discourage anybody, hell i'm still smoking it daily



I don't mean that I think you're lying but it just seems like there should be more to the story, especially because of the WBC counts run on both of them.  When he said he hasn't smoked in a month, did that mean the test was run a month after he quit, or he stopped smoking after the test a month ago?

Any of you long term smokers gotten sick more?


----------



## synaestasia420

when he found out the results from the test a month ago, he stopped smoking. i never questioned him about why his friend took the same test, it could've been a co-worker friend, i wasn't curious enough to find out.

i searched google about that side-effect and only found 1 other similar report, so who knows, i'm just throwing it out there


----------



## Chainer

amblerg, where do you put the JWH?  Right ontop the atty?  Seems that would fuck it up pretty quickly.

I got a few e-cigs and USB passthrus so this might warrent another shot at JWH.  I hated freebasing the shit and it just wasn't right ontop a bowl.


----------



## darkhalf

So JWH-018 is generally considered to be the most recreational JWH?  There are so many to choose from I don't know which to get!


----------



## lewp

darkhalf said:


> So JWH-018 is generally considered to be the most recreational JWH?  There are so many to choose from I don't know which to get!



It's all personal opinion really. I personally prefer 250 over 018, it's really psychedelic in high doses(even getting trails) but there all great, although I'm yet to try 073. 018 is very enjoyable nonetheless, if you prefer more of a body high then head high.


----------



## Pegasus

JWH-250 doesn't have the same toxicity concern that all the other JWHs have...  That'll be the only one I try if I try any...


----------



## Sega420

bump


----------



## Lazyscience

sorry, im sure this question has been asked many times before but i dont have time to read all the posts.

is this stuff legal in the UK? are there other synthetic cannabinoids that are legal in the UK?


----------



## BeeBizz

you want to know if it is still legal in the UK, or if you can still get it online in the UK safely?


*ive been getting this 90% extract that looks kinda gross until i put it in a coffee grinder and get a nice yellowish powder.

I agree with what was said about smoking it off foil.  kinda tastes gross and leaves a weird texture on my tongue


----------



## skoolage

IMHO the bad side effects of JWH-018 are exaggerated. I've been smoking and eating it for ~2 weeks with zero cannabis or any other drug tolerance and I've had zero problems. I've been eyeballing it and I have almost no previous experience in powders and I've had no bad side effects. Of course I have been careful and started with a very small amount and worked my way up but I've still been really high a lot of times and had no problems.

Your mileage may vary though since drugs vary greatly from person to person and of course it's a good idea to be very careful and use an mg scale, but in my experience it's not as scary as many make it out to be.


----------



## lewp

BeeBizz said:


> *ive been getting this 90% extract that looks kinda gross until i put it in a coffee grinder and get a nice yellowish powder.
> 
> I agree with what was said about smoking it off foil.  kinda tastes gross and leaves a weird texture on my tongue



Synthetic cannabanoids aren't extracts. Try smoking it out of a lightbulb, tastes better. 018 doesn't have the best taste,  250 vaped tastes similar to vanilla malt in a weird way.. quite delicious


----------



## qwe

my jwh was cut to the max (tons of residue, yellowish green).  guess it wont be helping my w/d

fucking legalize hard and soft drugs.  ARRRGG

sorry i got a little ANGRY.  hormones all over (opie wd)


----------



## BeeBizz

lewp said:


> Synthetic cannabanoids aren't extracts. Try smoking it out of a lightbulb, tastes better. 018 doesn't have the best taste,  250 vaped tastes similar to vanilla malt in a weird way.. quite delicious



yeah im quite aware that jwh-018 is a synthetic chemical... but the vendor calls it "90% Bonsai mix - Made from extract process"

*upon questioning the vendor about what the excess material was, or what he meant by extract, he informed me that: 



> The powder is brown because it has not been blanched. Meaning it has not underwent a "bleaching" or a vigourous cleaning process. This JWH-018 is in its raw form. All JWH-018 looks off-brown usually. But the white fluffy nice kind with a high reactivity is hard to come by at a good bulk but not extreme bulk price anyway.
> 
> I can't tell you what plants they are, but I do know nothing illegal. These base products that were used to make the JWH-018, what could be used, were made using products or "by-products" from plants. Which resulted in the slightly low-level of temperature trigger to melt, good for pass-through rate, and less likely to spontaneously combust in heat. Which can explain why some people experience a similar effect to the original bonsai fertilizer.
> 
> The JWH-018 itself was not extracted from plants. The products used to make it,
> a good portion, were made "greenish" to best explain it?  I can see if I can learn how to blanch this stuff I can try a small amount and let you know? If I can, it should provide an off-white denser powder, resulting in 95% with better taste than the brown of course and lose of the original product weight of course. I am not saying I will, but if I do it, I'll let you know!


 

now that just leaves more questions doesnt it?  but hey, most importantly it gets me high and i havent noticed any negative side effects or abnormalities from what ive experienced with pure white powder.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Ok I have been trying not to tell many people about JWH-018 because I want this substance to stay off the radar...wouldn't anyone...it's kind of a paradox in that sense. But here's the deal, I personally find it to be more satisfying than most marijuana as some people have stated. I have tried many kinds of legitimate stuff definitely good. I have often smoked stuff from coffeeshops and find this just as satisfying.

It's very different and you really do gotta watch out...I ordered one of those milligram scales so that I can at least be within a milligram of accuracy. Really if you do it properly you can get too much, and for me it was like this sudden rush to my head of the feeling, and then I was trying to talk to my roomate and I looked at his face and it was tripping me out man.


----------



## BeeBizz

i know what you mean about the rush in your head feeling from smoking too much.

One time I smoked a bit too much at once and was stuck on my bed rolling around extremely dizzy and disoriented with my head pulsing and my vision (more so with eyes closed) strobing rapidly.

it was more uncomfortable physically than anything mental, just gotta know your dose like any drug.

i do feel it lacks  the complexity of a high-grade marijuana high.  Also, with weed, each strain (especially high-grade genetics) seems to offer a slightly different high, which helps hold my interest in marijuana.


----------



## ABCDFG I Ate The E

BeeBizz said:


> i know what you mean about the rush in your head feeling from smoking too much.
> 
> One time I smoked a bit too much at once and was stuck on my bed rolling around extremely dizzy and disoriented with my head pulsing and my vision (more so with eyes closed) strobing rapidly.
> 
> it was more uncomfortable physically than anything mental, just gotta know your dose like any drug.
> 
> i do feel it lacks  the complexity of a high-grade marijuana high.  Also, with weed, each strain (especially high-grade genetics) seems to offer a slightly different high, which helps hold my interest in marijuana.



same here, i like how diff. weed gives you different highs.  and really prefer normal bud over jwh anyway.  it feels so much more natual.


----------



## hx_

this


			
				Me 3 months ago@DF translated from SWIMshite said:
			
		

> Might just be me, but recently after a good 4 months and 3 grams experience with smoking JWH-018 in various frequencies and various ways (vapouriser, tin foil vaping, pipes, shotties, rolled into cigs, rolled into joints, eaten) I still love going OTT with this substance.
> 
> 
> As I have been (not clever I know) eyeballing the substance, in the first few weeks of use some very intense experiences were had, a couple were unpleasant due to "rush"* like feelings where I felt like my chest had been pushed backwards, what I would imagine being shoved by a ghost would feel like.
> 
> 
> In one rather idiotic OD me and a friend smoked a single skin joint with, looking back, approximately 140mg in. Within minutes I was higher than he had ever been but dizzy and every time I looked up my head would spin and spin and spin.
> I and friend proceeded to a bus stop to sit down, I started loosing my balance and had to hold the seat he was sat on for support. i started to sense something approaching, turned to my friend and remarked "something's coming" Seconds later warm, "glowing", "energy" filled my body filling from my toes to his head, when "full" of this energy i felt like i was floating, then a "woosh" sound acompanied by a "rush"* that "emptied" the energy. After this i walked to my friend's house the high slowly subsided as it would normally. This is a one off and I've never experienced anything quite like it.
> 
> After a few months of smoking I got bored of the substance and decided to save what he had left due to the cannabinoid ban in the UK.
> 
> 
> Getting to my main point.
> 
> The other day I got out the JWH and proceeded to load a vapouriser. I got to the level of "really high" but did not want to leave it there. So vaped the same amount again and got into bed, heavy dubstep music playing. "Rushes" again but this time expecting them they are strangely pleasurable. I could feel the anxiety creeping in but just thought, "I can handle this easy, its a good feeling not bad feeling." and proceeded to loose myself in random thoughts all while being blissfully happy and amazed at the innovativeness of the music mix.
> 
> I thoroughly enjoyed this and have since been vaporising 30-60mg in one go every few nights. Strange thing is I'm not usually one to get "fucked up" on drugs and will generally stop when at a "feelgood" level. But I think the JWH-018 really shines at high dosage if you can control the anxiety.
> 
> 
> 
> TL;DR
> 
> Anyone else enjoy ridiculous amounts of JWH-018?



I soon after bought a milligram scale but have only used it for JWH-018 once. I have 60mg left, so no more smoking that now, as a friend said "Smoking it is like killing a unicorn!"


----------



## hx_

etardedadam said:


> If you wanted to make a spice like product and you didn't want to mess with acetone couldn't you mix a known amount of Powdered plant material like Damiana with a known amount of JWH then mix it together thoroughly. They are about the same consistency. Would the resulting powder be hard to smoke?



We used to do that with sticky and dry weed put through a grinder. Youll get plenty of hotspots so its best to make small batches. eg. 20mg bags of JWH-018 and add plant material as needed. Dampish plant material picks up dry powders easier - rolling tobacco is a good example.


----------



## SpecialK_

I am curious is this a good substitute for smoking marijuana everyday? It seems substantially cheaper and much less is required for a hit. Although I used to smoke spice blends and after a while they started making me sick, it was more so the smell/taste but any time I smoked a decent amount of weed along with some magic/spice it made me sick could this be a reason to stay away from JWH-018 or was it most likely some other herb mixed in with it?


----------



## KMK0420

I'll stick to organically grown weed.


----------



## SpecialK_

KMK0420 said:


> I'll stick to organically grown weed.



So would we all if it was financially possible, but as I cannot afford this it could be a reasonable substitute with marijuana for the time being.


----------



## soldierkahn

I'd love to stick to just regular pot, but for about the same price, with JWH/Spice, you dont have to worry about getting arrested, nor do you have to worry about anyone catching a whiff of what youre smoking and investigating (its 2010, god and everyone knows what burnt Pot smells like). Personally, Ive been smoking about 3-5g of Wicked XXX (spice product) per day for about 6 months and other than the fact that it only lasts about an hour, it seems a perfect legal substitute for bud.

just my 2c with my experience...


----------



## jeezits

3-5 grams of spice every day, at about the same price of weed?  That sounds like a very expensive habit considering you are smoking random herbs that have been sprayed with extremely cheap drugs. If you’re going to smoke that much spice, why not just spray some of the drugs onto your own random herbs?  You could smoke the same amount of jwh for about 1/50th the price.  

I would have asked why not just do pure jwh for way more potency at a fraction of the price, but I personally wouldn’t encourage anyone to do pure jwh regularly.


----------



## soldierkahn

i know, it sounds like its a pretty nasty habit i got going on but Im coping with daily pain and my PM doctor not scarfing up the right amount of pain meds to get me through each month. I use my prescription for the two weeks it lasts me and then for the last two weeks i utilize spice, and hell yeah its really pricey lol. I wish i could just find some JWH-018 plain ole that way i could just spray my cigarettes or spray somethin else really dense so that i only need a toke or two to keep goin pain free. 

small back story on my pain.... degenerative enamel so my teeth are rotting from the root down....nothin i can do to stop it ive prevented total loss for as long as i can.... so now i see a PM doctor to handle my daily pain while i get a tooth a week/every other week taken out. Im currently on 1 Oxycodone 10mg/325mg APAP every 6-8 hours as prescribed so what i do is since im allotted four a day as 'scripted, i save them all for while im at work so that i can focus (i use spice at home or just aleve to help me make it til bed time) but since the four isnt enough to get me through, I take 2 every two hours here at work (8 a day), and since Im trying to stretch them for as long as i can, I dont take anything over the weekend either and spend each weekend going through w/d's. 

I just wish that i could find a doctor that would prescribe me the proper amount per day to get me through so I could then stop having to smoke this shit, destroying yet another part of my body ni the process... 

sorry for the rant...


----------



## jeezits

Sorry for your pain.  I’d have no problem buying 3-5 grams of spice at weed prices if it were a one time thing, but just know that if you are going to use it regularly there are much cheaper options.  Of course it’s against the rules to list sources but I will say it’s currently very easy to buy pure jwh-018 if you look around a bit.  You can go a few different routes from there.  You can either use it pure, or you can make your own spice like product.  Either option will require some research in order to know what you’re doing, but all the info is pretty easy to find online; in fact I’ll bet most if not all of it can be found right here on bluelight.

Just keep in mind that dealing with pure jwh-018 requires some extra caution because it is.....pure.  The one advantage to using spice the way you currently are is that you don’t need to be nearly as careful.  Just one gram of pure jwh-018 would probably be powerful enough to make anywhere between 25-100 grams of your spice depending on how strong your particular blend is, and that would save you tons of money.


----------



## Coolio

And put the scumbags selling fraudulent products without valid ingredients lists out of business.


----------



## bongzilla420

My buddy has always been that guy that gets fucked up way easier than every one and he got some jwh-018 and he doesnt smoke it that much so even a little bit gets him higher than he wants to be.so I was wondering if there was something you could cut it with and not make it harsh or taste bad?


----------



## Depressicaa

It seems that there is an impurity in my JWH. When I put it in a hot water bath, I get some sort of strange viscous jelly at the bottom. It seems to be some sort of lipid or fat, I don't know. It solidifies into a hard fat when left to cool. Is this the actual JWH or is it some sort of well known impurity?


----------



## soldierkahn

jeezits said:


> Sorry for your pain.  I’d have no problem buying 3-5 grams of spice at weed prices if it were a one time thing, but just know that if you are going to use it regularly there are much cheaper options.  Of course it’s against the rules to list sources but I will say it’s currently very easy to buy pure jwh-018 if you look around a bit.  You can go a few different routes from there.  You can either use it pure, or you can make your own spice like product.  Either option will require some research in order to know what you’re doing, but all the info is pretty easy to find online; in fact I’ll bet most if not all of it can be found right here on bluelight.
> 
> Just keep in mind that dealing with pure jwh-018 requires some extra caution because it is.....pure.  The one advantage to using spice the way you currently are is that you don’t need to be nearly as careful.  Just one gram of pure jwh-018 would probably be powerful enough to make anywhere between 25-100 grams of your spice depending on how strong your particular blend is, and that would save you tons of money.




i appreciate the help, ill really have to look into getting that pure jwh over buying this spice blend stuff. Not only for saving money purposes, but also so that I could adjust my dose from what it currently is without having to increase the amount of crap that i have to smoke. make it strong enough to last me for at least 2 hours lol. I get about an hour off of a bowl of spice now as it is, but once im in control, hopefully i can get that up there. 

id just really like to be able to get prescribed the right amount of pain meds so that i wouldn't have to dump garbage into my body just to take pain away


----------



## mecaib

bongzilla420 said:


> I was wondering if there was something you could cut it with and not make it harsh or taste bad?



You can always dope some inactive herb with your JWH. Just pour a pile of powder onto a glass plate and rub some kind of herb into it, mixing it up as well as you can. I did this with some tobacco, and it worked fine. It's not as efficient as vaping the stuff straight, but it's still cheaper than buying spice-alikes.


----------



## mecaib

*JWH-018 - A perfect stimulant?*

Is the 018 giving you panic attacks? Anxiety? Nervous energy? Next time you overdose, try putting that energy to work! Take a walk, play in the garden... do whatever it takes to convert that energy into productivity.

I recently got a megadose when my brother left some overage in my pipe. Not anticipating it, I filled it up and took my usual dose. Before I knew it, I was flying HIGH. I began to think about how I was wasting my time with unproductive activities and thus set out to turn the compost to make new soil.

The change was immediate. My anxiety turned into euphoria!

I can consume 018 three times a day, every day, and it gives me lots of energy without upsetting my bipolar condition. In contrast, if I take pseudoephedrine more than three days in a row, I start to become manic. 018 does not do this at all. The high is so pure and wonderful.

As a person who gets major anxiety and paranoia from too much pot, let me tell you that 018's propensity for producing such unwanted effects is much less than cannabis's. JWH-018 is a good example of how applied chemistry can go right 

I hope it remains legal to produce and consume forever!


----------



## jeezits

I certainly don’t want to downplay or trivialize your difficult experience, but from what you describe it sounds like you took a _little_ too much and rode it out just fine.  To take 5x, 10x, 20x too much is a whole different ball game, and I think that’s what some people are describing when they have these extremely bizarre, full blown panic attacks.  Don’t get me wrong, I think that is great advice. Walk around, play in the garden, play the guitar (one of my own), if that is possible. Try to take an active role in something because that can definitely help keep those overwhelming thoughts from consuming you.  In fact, that’s good advice for weed and other psychedelics as well, unless of course you actually want to writhe around on the floor and fully allow the experience to kick your ass.   However, with some of these massive JWH overdoses,  the person is 100% sure they are about to die, their heart is about to explode etc.  In some cases (I experienced this), walking and talking is virtually impossible.  

For severe  JWH overdoses, you will likely be stuck in bed or a chair, at best maybe you can pace a few steps back and forth, but don’t go smashing through any walls or TV’s.  For those situations, here is what I recommend, it’s basically a comedown exercise that has worked for me.  Start with a question like what is the date?… this might be an extremely difficult question.  If you don’t know, then ask yourself an easier question.  What is the month?  If you don’t know then ask an easier question, perhaps what is my address/phone number?  If that’s too difficult then ask, what is my name?  As soon as you’ve found a question you can answer, then ask a slightly harder one.  If you don’t know the date, but you do know the month for example, then follow up with, “Well is it early June, or late June?”  Even if you don’t know your name, I believe you will eventually find a question you can answer, and all the while you are gradually coming down.  Before long you might even know the date.  Just work hard to stick to these simple threads, and it will be sort of like going for a walk, or playing in a garden inside your head, when perhaps you can’t physically go for a walk.  

This method has helped me, both with jwh-018 and other heavy psychedelic experiences.  Hopefully, it won’t backfire on somebody, where they realize they don’t even know their own name and that causes them to panic more. That has never happened to me because when I’m so far gone that I need to use this exercise, _more_ panic would be impossible.


----------



## mecaib

jeezits said:


> I certainly don’t want to downplay or trivialize your difficult experience, but from what you describe it sounds like you took a _little_ too much and rode it out just fine.



Okay, so maybe it wasn't a SUPERMEGAdose, but it was quite enough to make my body hard to feel. 018 at higher doses knocks me out of my body, makes things feel like LSD tracers look, if that makes any sense. I stop thinking in words; my internal dialogue becomes a series of musical emotional expressions... it can be quite overwhelming.

If I get that high on pot, the anxiety and paranoia can be very hard to overcome. But with 018 at similar levels, those negative feelings are much more navigable, can be overcome more easily compared to cannabis.

So I still have yet to try an ultramegamondosupercosmic dose, but that's not even something I like to do with pot very often. It will take some mental preparation. Then I'll report back to you all


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## jeezits

IMO, it’s probably better to just stick to an enjoyable dose that gets you nice and high.  I was talking more about people who accidentally take way too much and then have to deal with it.  There are people who have done ayahuasca, dmt, loads of shrooms etc. and yet the most difficult experience they’ve ever had was an 018 overdose.   

I think you’re totally right about 018 anxiety being different than weed anxiety.  Speaking only for myself of course, a weed related panic attack would be much more useful.  I’d come out the other end feeling better for the experience, like I had worked out some important issues in my mind.  It’s more like a psychedelic for me, the way it reveals important truths that I’m usually too stubborn, egotistical, and self protective to accept or deal with in my regular sober state.  018 related anxiety for me is much more related to hallucinations regarding my physical well-being.  I might feel like my heart is pounding way too hard, or it might feel like I have red hot pins and needles in my throat.  I’ll wonder about the incredibly real burning throat sensation and think, “Of course, it means I’ve stopped breathing!”  During an 018 panic attack it’s more like I’m a wild animal, and my higher consciousness has just gone completely haywire, making it much more difficult to get anything useful or meaningful out of the experience aside from maybe a newfound appreciation for being alive once it‘s over.


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## mecaib

jeezits said:


> I was talking more about people who accidentally take way too much and then have to deal with it.



I can definitely see how an 018 overdose can become scary. The knowledge that it's a relatively untested chem with largely unknown side effects can really make a person wonder if they might not just die from the experience.



> I think you’re totally right about 018 anxiety being different than weed anxiety.  Speaking only for myself of course, a weed related panic attack would be much more useful.  I’d come out the other end feeling better for the experience, like I had worked out some important issues in my mind.



Yeah, pot can really guide you into deep, personal issues much more than 018. But OTOH, too much too often can feel a bit like self flagellation, like I'm beating myself up.

Last night a smoked a little too much pot (it's harder to hit the right dose than with 018 ), and I started to think about a cockatiel we've had for years. A long time ago, when my head was all messed up, he must have heard me yell and scream in rage. As the pot high got more intense, I started to feel really bad, like I made him even more wary of humans, me in particular. I've tried and tried to show him that I'm much less volatile, but he seems forever hateful towards me. I feel so low, to have offended a him with my proximal anger


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## shamantra

well, i tried jwh now

the 018 kind

as for dosages  ,i started with 3 mg ,. worked my way up. 2 days later im trying 140 mg and I still feel just a small buzz. So im thinking this was a poor batch. I ask a friend to sample 6 mg. he got so stoned he forgot his name. 

not sure what to make out of this. just gonna stick to old sticky green 

the good news i got some 4 aco dmt sample hehe. now thats a chemical i can enjoy


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## Roose

Closing this thread. Take all further discussion here


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