# How toxic is Mephedrone?



## Giovanni

Does anybody have an idea of how bad Mephedrone is for your body? Does anybody know about short and long term toxic effects? Thanks in advance.


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## pofacedhoe

clearly no-one knows, duh

its only been around for a couple of years (thank those sweet israeli gits) and it would be good if you use restraint as i dont want to have a source of cheap fun removed cos you experiment and it goes wrong.

here is my experience

-it can cause psychosis, when it wears off you feel great but have a decreased tolerance to irritaion and get in a rage easily. 

-it can fuck with your heart like all stimulants and although unproven its highly likely that is causes 5ht2b stimulation and the problems associated with that (wiki). using it rarely, solves this danger as mdma also has affinity for that receptor (people just dont use mdma that often (if they have a brain)) and we havent seen a huge amount of pulmonary blah from all those ravers years ago.

-it can cause issues with blood clotting as it has a large effect on serotnin and said neurotransmitter has a very important role in blood clotting.

as for actual research you must be 'avin a jeer 'alf

so be wise and dont damage yourself


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## Black

pofacedhoe said:


> clearly no-one knows, duh


exactly. there has already been another thread in ADD about mephedrone toxicity in the last weeks iirc.



> pulmonary blah



cardiac fibrosis (of the pulmonary valve) if i may help you


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## rangrz

IIRC, it has limited MAOI properties and is probably more risky to mix then other similar subjective effect compounds.

thats just off my head tho.


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## ebola?

While most-all 4-substituted AMPs and bk-AMPs have modest MAOI properties (Nuke 2009), it's 4-methoxy-methcathinone (aka methadrone) that is a strong MAOI and DARI in one.  Don't let the silly names nab you.

ebola


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## Hammilton

Well, probably is a strong MAOI and DARI in one.  There's no pharmacological data to support or deny this, but assuming it is, is a lot smarter than dying over it.


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## pofacedhoe

ebola? said:


> While most-all 4-substituted AMPs and bk-AMPs have modest MAOI properties (Nuke 2009), it's 4-methoxy-methcathinone (aka methadrone) that is a strong MAOI and DARI in one.  Don't let the silly names nab you.
> 
> ebola



methedrone (which is mega dodge) or Mephedrone (less dodge, still dodge though).

i aint got no chemistry degree (purely psycho logic) but methoxy and methyl to me sound different, this would suggest they are in fact different compunds

methedrone (4-methoxy-methcathinone) was marketed with a nasty desire to sound similar to mephedrone (4-methyl-methcathinone) to catch the money of fools willing to buy something they overheard at a party ,yet 4-methoxy-methcathinone has some very toxic interactions within is effects. whereas with mephedrone its just bad in the short term like coke or speed and pulmonary blah( to explain it in one sentence is pointless as you should really read about it in detail if you plan on doing any mephedrone whatsoever) in the long term (read up on wiki for a bit of direction then do some reading of research articles-yes wiki is not to be relied upon but it can provide a usefull base for getting clues on what to look for in terms of acctual research, and diseases that exist).

always read up in detail and think before you jump or instead of tumbling off the garden wall you might end up diving down the angel falls


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## pofacedhoe

Hammilton said:


> Well, probably is a strong MAOI and DARI in one.  There's no pharmacological data to support or deny this, but assuming it is, is a lot smarter than dying over it.



doesnt mean it is not the case just that it could and couln't be. maybe lean more towards could. this is logical given the possibly accuartely guessed risks.

why is thinking in grey so difficult. i find it essential to not go mental. everthing is a certain percent yes and a certain percent no. e.g 70/30 or 32/ 68 etc. life is a game of probability and so is everything ever... or maybe it isn't but i'd lean a little more to it is if you get my drift


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## vecktor

the risk calculation is really easy.

*what are the downside risks*? --- we don't know

*what are the worst possible downside risks*, and of course we don't know if these are indeed the worst possible risks? --- death, heart valve fibrosis, brain damage, organ damage, clotting problems, death

*what is the upside?*  getting somewhat high.

do you feel lucky???????

this rat will pass thankyou.


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## flacky

Has this been proven to be a MAOI? If so, how long is the duration for MAO inhibition?


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## pofacedhoe

vecktor said:


> the risk calculation is really easy.
> 
> *what are the downside risks*? --- we don't know
> 
> *what are the worst possible downside risks*, and of course we don't know if these are indeed the worst possible risks? --- death, heart valve fibrosis, brain damage, organ damage, clotting problems, death
> 
> *what is the upside?*  getting somewhat high.
> 
> do you feel lucky???????
> 
> this rat will pass thankyou.



which rat?: Mephedrone (which seems to be gaining enough popularity to hit the mainstream r Methedrone (which seems to have lost its shit atempt at gaining any vogue whatsoever):D


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## Coolio

Since I seemed to have missed mephedrone's MAOI potential being discussed in any other threads, I'd like to ask someone here. What evidence or theory is there to support mephedrone being a strong MAOI? Is it MAO A or B selective? Irreversible of course?

I'd like to know if mephedrone could be used to orally activate DMT and DPT.


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## flacky

And if I could quickly tag on to Coolio's question: How long are its effects as a MAOI present for?


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## vecktor

Coolio said:


> Since I seemed to have missed mephedrone's MAOI potential being discussed in any other threads, I'd like to ask someone here. What evidence or theory is there to support mephedrone being a strong MAOI? Is it MAO A or B selective? Irreversible of course?
> 
> I'd like to know if mephedrone could be used to orally activate DMT and DPT.


mephedrone:
it is likely just to be a substrate inhibitor like most amphetamine type compounds, a competitive inhibitor and probably a weak one at that, however the stuff is being taken at stupid doses so who knows.
I have seen no solid data, so all is speculation.
the metabolites, which are guaranteed to include beta hydroxy compounds would seem more interesting with respect to toxic potential.


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## vortex30

> MMCAT toxicity/neurotoxicity
> It isn't too bad at all.
> 
> 
> Methamphetamine is fucking toxic, it is an effective dual DA/SE cascader aswell as a slight reuptake inhibitor, Methcathinone and mephedrone are the other way around, they are decent reuptake inhibitors, with less of a cascading effect, particularly on dopamine as the ketone on the beta carbon is electronegative and won't fit through SER correcctly, despite the methyl being partially SE mimicking the cascade is still small, and the reuptake inhibition fairly abysmal for the same reason.
> Thus the SE release is far less for both chemicals, meaning that : -
> 
> A) The cathinone is not take up into the presynaptic neuron (despite the methyl being a hydroxyl mimicker) where due to the methyl on the amine and alpha carbon, it inhibits MAO to a large degree, creating an MAOI effect.
> 
> B) The dual release, and consequent DA "hoover" effect is significantly lessened, again resulting in less breakdown product damage in the neuron.
> 
> For the dopamine side of things, the molecules double bonded carbon makes it a far more effective DARI as opposed to releaser, again product breakdown inside the neuron is far less and the overall subsequent monoamine depletion is less, leading to far lower depletion. Again as the molecular is primarily a reuptake inhibitor as opposed to a cascader MAO inhibition is not seen to anywhere near the same degree as amphetamines/methamphetamines, however you do notice a definate adrenaline increase after the drug has worn off, as the DARI action lessens and the amount of DA and consequently NA/A in the presynaptic neuron shoots up causing a cascade.
> 
> Evidence to support these claims.
> 
> Cathinones cause a fairly hefty DA mediated rise in body temperature, and the high is far more of a sustained one than the initial rush (cascade) of amphetamines. Cascaders are fucking evil in principle, I really can't understand why people have used and DA mimicked for so fucking long .
> 
> MBDB is primarily serotonergenic with little to no DA effects, yet as soon as you put a double bonded oxygen on it, you get a much higher affinity for the NE and DA transporters and considerably lessened to almost nill reuptake into the SE neuron.
> 
> Dimethylamphetamine is nearly inactive, because the molecule is a shit DARI, and causes it's effects through cascading, whereas Dimethylmethcathinone is only 1.6x less active than methcathinone (with the extra steric bulk on the amine compensating for the lowered charge and bining) proving that the primary mechanism of the cathinones is reuptake inhibition as opposed to cascading.
> 
> The above information showing cathinones lesser affinity for the SE transporter also means that compounds such as 4 methoxy amphetamine, and 4 methyl amphetamine are rendered harmless as MAOI's as they do not get transported into the presynaptic SE neuron, hence no massive overheating.
> 
> Furthermore, the 4 fluorinated and 4 methylated versions of both methcathinone and cathinone will have barely any 5HT2b agonism, as SE, being a mood regulator amongst other things, will have evolved to not accept electronegative groups there, otherwise NE/E would have a far larger effect, causing heart issues in humans.



Can someone explain how the reasoning here is wrong/right for each point and how likely any of this is going to wind up being correct. I won't name who wrote this, but some people on here will know right away. 

Its something to read, at least speculation over Mephedrone that takes a bigger leap than it possibly being an MAOI and DARI therefore bad. I'd like to have this refuted/confirmed for this forum, and another forum, so thanks to the ADD people who take the time to go over the thought process and offer up a counter-argument, or a confirmation of sound logic, etc.

Thanks!


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## vecktor

^^

I believe the above speculation is from a dubious source, an author with an ulterior motive. some of the basic chemistry is wrong.
IMHO it is not even worth dissecting.


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## lineartransform

I would argue that it is very much worth discussing, if only to discredit these claims in a coherent manner. 

Information is valuable, and vetted information even more so. Leaving a comment like that to stand on its own when toxicity could be a very significant risk could expose many to unnecessary harm.


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## vecktor

lineartransform said:


> I would argue that it is very much worth discussing, if only to discredit these claims in a coherent manner.
> 
> Information is valuable, and vetted information even more so. Leaving a comment like that to stand on its own when toxicity could be a very significant risk could expose many to unnecessary harm.



There is not sufficient information with respect to mephedrone and its ilk upon which to base a properly informed judgement either way, it is all speculation and extrapolation, but at least those who speculate should get basic chemistry right.

As for people being exposed to unecessary harm, well there is no necessity to consume mephedrone.

Until there is solid data available the default position should be to leave the stuff alone.


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## lineartransform

Sorry vecktor, what I meant was - to those who are not intimately familiar with the chemistry, the above quoted post seems credible. Combine that with the fact that mephedrone is somewhat addictive, there exists the possibility of people rationalizing their use by referencing that post.

A quick explanation of what chemistry is in error would help to drastically reduce the credibility of that post. If this has been explained in another thread I apologize, and would like to request the link to it.


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## vecktor

my comments in red, in short the whole treatise is a festering pile of contradictory self serving rubbish
I can't believe I wasted 20minutes of my finite existance on this planet bothering to comment on this piece of crap. 




> MMCAT toxicity/neurotoxicity
> It isn't too bad at all.
> 
> 
> Methamphetamine is fucking toxic, it is an effective dual DA/SE cascader
> 
> there is no scientific term cascader what is a cascader (a transport reverser, a vmat inhibitor what?????
> 
> aswell as a slight reuptake inhibitor, Methcathinone and mephedrone are the other way around, they are decent reuptake inhibitors,
> there is no evidence whatsoever for this [/COLOR]
> 
> with less of a cascading effect, particularly on dopamine as the ketone on the beta carbon is electronegative and won't fit through SER correcctly,
> It doesn't have to be taken up by SERT, however the assertion that a ketone alpha to the phenyl prevents uptake is fanciful
> 
> despite the methyl being partially SE mimicking the cascade is still small, and the reuptake inhibition fairly abysmal for the same reason.
> Thus the SE release is far less for both chemicals, meaning that : -
> 
> A) The cathinone is not take up into the presynaptic neuron (despite the methyl being a hydroxyl mimicker)
> bullshit, the cathinone can diffuse into the neuron it is a weak base
> 
> where due to the methyl on the amine and alpha carbon, it inhibits MAO to a large degree, creating an MAOI effect.
> 
> there is little or no evidence that these cathinones are MOAI's other than being substrates like amphetamine
> 
> B) The dual release, and consequent DA "hoover" effect is significantly lessened, again resulting in less breakdown product damage in the neuron.
> 
> 
> For the dopamine side of things, the molecules double bonded carbon makes it a far more effective DARI as opposed to releaser,
> no evidence, those cathinone derivatives which are effective DAT inhibitors generally have more complex substitution on the nitrogen and a longer or more complex side chain
> 
> again product breakdown inside the neuron is far less and the overall subsequent monoamine depletion is less, leading to far lower depletion. Again as the molecular is primarily a reuptake inhibitor as opposed to a cascader MAO inhibition is not seen to anywhere near the same degree as amphetamines/methamphetamines, however you do notice a definate adrenaline increase after the drug has worn off,
> Earlier the author said it was a strong MAOI - MAKE YOUR MIND UP MAN FWIW amphetamine is only a weak MAOI at normal doses
> 
> as the DARI action lessens and the amount of DA and consequently NA/A in the presynaptic neuron shoots up causing a cascade.
> 
> Evidence to support these claims.
> 
> Cathinones cause a fairly hefty DA mediated rise in body temperature, and the high is far more of a sustained one than the initial rush (cascade) of amphetamines. Cascaders are fucking evil in principle, I really can't understand why people have used and DA mimicked for so fucking long .
> body temperature increases are also associated with serotonin release, so this is a baseless conclusion
> 
> MBDB is primarily serotonergenic with little to no DA effects, yet as soon as you put a double bonded oxygen on it, you get a much higher affinity for the NE and DA transporters and considerably lessened to almost nill reuptake into the SE neuron.
> 
> Dimethylamphetamine is nearly inactive, because the molecule is a shit DARI, and causes it's effects through cascading, whereas Dimethylmethcathinone is only 1.6x less active than methcathinone (with the extra steric bulk on the amine compensating for the lowered charge and bining) proving that the primary mechanism of the cathinones is reuptake inhibition as opposed to cascading.
> a conclusion way beyond the evidence there is only limited data wrt to dimethylamphetamine primarily from the DEA who found it in some clandestine labs
> 
> The above information showing cathinones lesser affinity for the SE transporter also means that compounds such as 4 methoxy amphetamine, and 4 methyl amphetamine are rendered harmless as MAOI's as they do not get transported into the presynaptic SE neuron, hence no massive overheating.
> 
> wrong
> 
> Furthermore, the 4 fluorinated and 4 methylated versions of both methcathinone and cathinone will have barely any 5HT2b agonism, as SE, being a mood regulator amongst other things,
> irrellevent
> will have evolved to not accept electronegative groups there,
> methyl is not electronegative so this is bullshit
> otherwise NE/E would have a far larger effect, causing heart issues in humans.
> bullshit again


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## Sparky1986

> I can't believe I wasted 20minutes of my finite existance on this planet bothering to comment on this piece of crap.



Well I'm sure people will appreciate it, even studying chemistry after a first glance that source seemed believable. Thanks for debunking it %)

I guess we won't have any information on 4-MMCAT's toxicity until some proper studies have been done, in place of speculative pharmacology.


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## immad

vecktor said:


> my comments in red, in short the whole treatise is a festering pile of contradictory self serving rubbish
> I can't believe I wasted 20minutes of my finite existance on this planet bothering to comment on this piece of crap.


Although I thought some of his statements were bullshit, I wasn't able to dissect it in such great detail. So thanks for wasting 20 minutes of your finite existence


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## lineartransform

Much appreciated vecktor, there's a lot of contradictory information out there. Nice to see an accurate critique.


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## pofacedhoe

vecktor said:


> There is not sufficient information with respect to mephedrone ... there is no necessity to consume mephedrone.



touch it and you are a guinea pig

also the case is that a number of different users have noted from experience that if you take it the day after taking it a previous day you seem to require less than before for the same effect. this would suggest it has a weak maoi effect-if you have another explaination for this then spit it as the maoi one seems to make sense to me given this weird tendency


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## pofacedhoe

lineartransform said:


> Much appreciated vecktor, there's a lot of contradictory information out there. Nice to see an accurate critique.



what you mean is that there are a load of opinions. personal experience may be of use with a drug but everyone has a different reaction based on chance, genes, etc. and these are no use for anyone to go on. they are only usefull to confer with others who have sampled to try and acertain some patterns that is common to everyones experience and try and discuss curious ideas. not to sell anyone the idea that ideas are facts. facts can be explained by ideas but rarely are the two once and the same


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## vecktor

pofacedhoe said:


> touch it and you are a guinea pig
> 
> also the case is that a number of different users have noted from experience that if you take it the day after taking it a previous day you seem to require less than before for the same effect. this would suggest it has a weak maoi effect-if you have another explaination for this then spit it as the maoi one seems to make sense to me given this weird tendency



long half life?
interference/synergy with the previous doses' metabolites?
enzyme (other tha MAO) inhibition?
sensitzation / reverse tolerance?

the doses in appear pretty huge form 200-300mg to over a gram, of a molecular lightweight  is a lot of molecules, so there is likely to be widespread off target interactions.


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## vortex30

In my experience with Mephedrone, one requires increasingly high doses each time during a single session. 100mg off the bat (insuffilated) will provide major effects, but by hour 10-12 on the stuff 100mg doesn't do too much. I think after the first few doses all the serotenergic effects are spent and one just gets dopaminergic stimulation and euphoria.


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## Spiv

Hi guys. I did Mephedrone for the fourth time today with a cumulative dosage of around 600mg (somehow...) over around 6 hours from 2am to 8am this morning. I am still confused as to how I finished the gram off since I only remember taking a 100mg bomb and a couple of lines. This morning, at around 8am, maybe earlier, I started to notice my knees turning slightly purple. I had read about that teenager who overdosed and went blue in the face. Naturally, I start worrying a lot. It became worse and worse until my knees were completely blue and my feet were going really pale. It also happened to my arms, quite severely. I started getting confused and tired. I had developed two red rashes one on my shoulder and one on my thigh. I remember watching the blue spread across my arms until i was covering the majority of the "outsides" of my arms. I kept breathing really deeply to try and slow my heart down and get more oxygen to my body. My hands were really blotchy with red and purple. My limbs had lost temperature and were pretty numb and as I looked in the mirror my ears my pale and slightly tinted blue along with my face. I looked closely and my lips were becoming blue as well. I tried to get the energy to phone an ambulance at this point as I thought that was the end of me. However, Very VERY luckily the side effects peaked and started to subside. I lay in bed breathing deeply for around 2 more hours until my limbs were nearly the correct color. Even now, 12 hours since the first dose (and the majority) and 6 since the final dose of around 50mg, my limbs do not feel right, especially my knees. If I cross my legs now my knees start going blue. 

This is the scariest experience I have ever had with drugs and it has put me off RCs for life that's for sure. I am confused as to why the problems started when the effects had pretty much gone, around the time I started coming down. 

I have taken equivalent doses before and had no side effects what so ever. Does anyone know WHAT THE HELL happened to me? I'm scared that I have caused permanent damage to my cardiovascular system. I also still have poor motor skills and very slow cognition which hasn't changed since I was high.

I am left now with tachycardia, unwanted stimulation, anxiousness, depression, confusion, forgetfulness,  half dead limbs, apathy and confirmation (for me at least) that Mephedrone is not worth the risk and it has serious toxic effects on the body.


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## vecktor

congratulations lab rat, looks like you have discovered that abscence of evidence of harm is not evidence of the abscence of harm. 

sounds like vasoconstriction, perhaps due to alpha adrenergic activity of the hydroxy metabolite, and if your limbs don't actually die or have to be amputated they will recover eventually. 

breathing deeply makes no difference, the tissue oxygen levels are not going to be much effected, because the oxygenated blood is not getting where it should, deep breathing can cause other problems due to hyperventilation.

*this drug and its parafluoro relative should be left alone, it appears to have killed at least once and is responsible for hospitalisations in the UK.*

just so you know what vasoconstriction caused by RC's looks like:










the toxicology profile of mephedrone at the moment seems very similar to that of PMMA paramethoxymethamphetamine and PMA which has killed scores of people.

I make no apology for posting these images (incidentally they are from a bromodragonfly overdose) if it stops one person from dying.

taking these things is always a gamble but the downside risks in this game can be very high, if you treat these things as harmless fun and don't afford them the respect they deserve, then you can be severely hurt.


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## Spiv

vecktor said:


> congratulations lab rat, looks like you have discovered that abscence of evidence of harm is not evidence of the abscence of harm.
> 
> sounds like vasoconstriction, perhaps due to alpha adrenergic activity of the hydroxy metabolite, and if your limbs don't actually die or have to be amputated they will recover eventually.
> 
> breathing deeply makes no difference, the tissue oxygen levels are not going to be much effected, because the oxygenated blood is not getting where it should, deep breathing can cause other problems due to hyperventilation.
> 
> *this drug and its parafluoro relative should be left alone, it appears to have killed at least once and is responsible for hospitalisations in the UK.*
> 
> 
> 
> just so you know what vasoconstriction caused by RC's looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the toxicology profile of mephedrone at the moment seems very similar to that of PMMA paramethoxymethamphetamine and PMA which has killed scores of people.
> 
> I make no apology for posting these images (incidentally they are from a bromodragonfly victim) if it stops one person from dying.
> 
> taking these things is always a gamble but the downside risks in this game can be very high, if you treat these things as harmless fun and don't afford them the respect they deserve, then you can be severely hurt.



Really. This is going to happen to me?!!!


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## immad

I guess not, since your vasoconstriction lessened. Those pics are of lethal vasoconstriction, I assume from the scandinavian death on bdfly?


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## vecktor

^ no this is the guy who survived, though his piano playing isn't as good as it used to be.


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## immad

Wow, that's pretty fucked up; to be alive with such serious consequences of drug (ab)use. Looks terrible.


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## ebola?

vorticies? said:
			
		

> I think after the first few doses all the serotenergic effects are spent and one just gets dopaminergic stimulation and euphoria.



That beats redosing w/ M1, though, where the _first_ redose might be marginally effective (I seek MDMA-like effects; there are cheaper and better classical stimulants).  I wonder why. . .


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## egor

Thanks for the reminder of why I wont touch bromo-dragonfly vector


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## pofacedhoe

never had any urge to touch bromodragonfly but that is pretty minging. as well as all this it is imortant to note that psychiatrists in england want this banned due to increasing incidence of people turning up at hospitals in the grip of psychosis.

yes it feels good but yes it is dangerous


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## Ceres

it is pretty worrying how widespread 4-mmc use is becoming in the uk, none of these people who are consuming it on a regular basis in large doses seem to care about the extant history of methcathinone abuse in europe and concomitant problems.


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## MurphyClox

Sparky1986 said:


> Methcathinone + Methylating Agent -> 4-methylmethcathinone



_Without_ going further into synthesis discussion (not to piss off the admins) I can tell you that this is not going to work. First, position 4 is not activated in methcathinone, and secondly, there are no feasible _direct_ methylating agents for this job.

Senseless paper-chemistry, as my advisor used to say.

I really can't understand how folks are encouraged to discuss the synth of this awful stuff, if
1. there are far better substances out there, and
2. Vecktor made his point quite visually clear.

Goddamned... 

- _Murphy_


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## mr.grey

Based on the large number of people who are taking it, I think the negative effects are still small, but quite concerning of course.

It seems to me that some people can handle it very well, while a smaller minority get's quite severe side effects and I wonder why that is.

I know of one guy who did a detailed blood test a couple of month ago, then started using Mephedrone quite heavily and on a recent similar blood test, he only had slightly higher liver values, but otherwise everything was absolutely fine.
He is also a person that can do and did Mephedrone on occasions like 5 times a week with basically no serious side effects.

I know that noone can say for sure, but would it be likely that some people just can handle Mephedrone and never get problems while other people are just very sensitive to it?
For me I have used it on most weekends (so one day per week) in the last 12 month in amounts of 300-600mg over the evening and never had any negative side effects.
No mood problems, no ill after effects, nothing.
I'm also not the person that gets cravings for it and I just use it to party and when I don't go out on a weekend, I don't use it at all.

In regard to the other poster, describing about turning blue, does anyone have an explaination, why he didn't have any problems like that one on his first 3 experiences with Mephedrone?
If it is a metabolic/body issue, should one not expect it to have happen the first time he used it already?


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## pofacedhoe

mr.grey said:


> Based on the large number of people who are taking it, I think the negative effects are still small, but quite concerning of course.
> 
> It seems to me that some people can handle it very well, while a smaller minority get's quite severe side effects and I wonder why that is.
> 
> I know of one guy who did a detailed blood test a couple of month ago, then started using Mephedrone quite heavily and on a recent similar blood test, he only had slightly higher liver values, but otherwise everything was absolutely fine.
> He is also a person that can do and did Mephedrone on occasions like 5 times a week with basically no serious side effects.
> 
> I know that noone can say for sure, but would it be likely that some people just can handle Mephedrone and never get problems while other people are just very sensitive to it?
> For me I have used it on most weekends (so one day per week) in the last 12 month in amounts of 300-600mg over the evening and never had any negative side effects.
> No mood problems, no ill after effects, nothing.
> I'm also not the person that gets cravings for it and I just use it to party and when I don't go out on a weekend, I don't use it at all.
> 
> In regard to the other poster, describing about turning blue, does anyone have an explaination, why he didn't have any problems like that one on his first 3 experiences with Mephedrone?
> If it is a metabolic/body issue, should one not expect it to have happen the first time he used it already?



it seems that idiosyncratic reactions are where the big problems lie. but i have myself experienced wierd side effects from time to time. the most consistent one being a feeling of lack of breath and a slightly tanned look the day after a binge. these dont sound very promising. unless you watch a lot of laguna bitch on tmf

given the liklihood that if this was promoted by media into a mass panic the use rates would skyrocket (ala mdma in the eighties) , the current climate seems to be one of wait and see. if you are a guinea pig at least restrict use to once every couple of months (do less), and remember its highly addictive


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## jac1999

has there really been no study on Mephedrone at all? I can't believe that a substance is such wide use now has unknown toxicity.


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## Ceres

^ not even tested on rats as far as I'm aware.


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## vecktor

*toxicity data almost...*

What is wierd is that those people who have reported severe reactions had taken it previously at high doses without adverse effects. which inspiredme to look into the likely metabolites

We know little about the metabolism of 4-mmc, I would expect that the metabolites will be the betahydroxy compound (paramethyl ephedrine) the N-demethylated betahydroxy compound (paramethylnorephedrine)  more on these later...
and to a lesser extent the metabolites from P450 oxidation of the 4-methyl position;- the hydroxymethyl (benzyl alcohol) and the carboxylic acid this seems more common with the more lipophillic cathinones.  all water soluble and so elimination is going to be renal, with limited amounts in other fluids.

I think that the metabolites rather than the drug itself will provide the answer to the toxicity.
the betahydroxy compounds are almost certainly the primary metabolites of mephedrone, and these are known compounds with toxicity data:
ed betahydroxy compound (paramethylnorephedrine)  more on these later...
and to a lesser extent the metabolites from P450 oxidation of the 4-methyl position;- the hydroxymethyl (benzyl alcohol) and the carboxylic acid.  all water soluble and so elimination is going to be renal, with limited amounts in other fluids.

I think that the metabolites rather than the drug itself will provide the answer to the toxicity.
the betahydroxy compounds are almost certainly the primary metabolites of mephedrone, and these are known compounds with toxicity data:

the primary metabolite paramethyl ephedrine is compound II in the paper below and is *3.4x more toxic than ephedrine* in guinea pigs or 2.27 x more toxic than ephedrine in rabbits


> A survey of the toxicities reveals no parallelism between the two methods
> of determination. There is, however, a remarkable regularity of increase
> in the toxicity on intravenous administration of the phenylalkanolamines
> with increase in length of the side chain. *Another striking fact is the much
> greater toxicity of the p-tolyl derivatives (I11 and V) as compared with the
> corresponding phenyl products (I1 and IV),* which lends support to the
> observation of de Burnaga Sanchez'O that p-methylephedrine is about 20%
> more toxic than ephedrine.


AMINO-ALCOHOLS. II. HOMOLOGS AND ANALOGS OF PHENYLPROPANOLAMINE
Walter H. Hartung, James C. Munch, W. Allan Deckert, Frank Crossley
J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1930, 52 (8), pp 3317–3322
DOI: 10.1021/ja01371a046

asuming that this metabolite s the primary metabolite, 
working from the sc guinea pig LD50 of 175mg/kg using the standard conversion of divide mg/kg by 4 to go from guinea pig to human  gives 44mg/kg  for this metabolite as the LD50 for humans. an estimate of around 3.3 g for 75kg body weight. people with idiosyncratic metabolism or are taking caffeine as well will die at lower doses.

we know that vanilla cathinone has central half life of 1.5 hrs or so, and that the beta hydroxy compound cathine has a much longer half life 5 hrs or so , extrapolating this to 4-mmc would seem to suggest that repeated redosing of 4-mmc raises the levels of the betahydroxy metabolite, even though plasma levels of 4-mmc do not significantly rise above the initial peak. the longer the redosing continues the more this metabolite accumulates. 

4-mmc is also a chiral molecule, unlike ordinary methcathinone it is a mixture of enantiomers, as it is made from 4-methylpropiophenone rather than a chiral precusor. with other cathinones both enantiomers have cardiac activity but only one has significant mental effects. the other enantiomer in 4-mmc is not contributing to the central effects but it is causing cardiovascular effects.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1884326

people are taking grams of a drug that metabolises to an ephedrine like compound, a compound that is considerably more toxic than ephedrine in animal models and a metabolite which likely has a much longer half life than 4-mmc, and we wonder why there are problems. the interesting thing is not that there are problems is that they are relatively infequent.

the vendors should have pulled this stuff when adverse effects were first apparent, but they don't give a fuck as long as the money rolls in.

they should also do their homework properly, I got all this with an hour of googling.
I should be a due dilligence consultant, my standard rate is 2K USD per day

please be careful with this stuff, used in moderation it is _probably_ reasonably safe perhaps no worsethan methcathinone itself. 

V


----------



## vecktor

*weak MAO-B activity of Nor 4-MMC *
pretty weak, 100 uM IC50 for Nor 4-MMC at MAO-B,  betahydroxy Norephedrine  a possible 4-MMC metablite has a 12 uM IC50 at MAO-A  about 4-6 times worse than moclobemide.
unfortunately all the compounds tested were primary amines

though for those interested para-alkylthio cathinones would be a very very bad idea.

Bioorganic & Medicinal Chemistry
Volume 12, Issue 15, 1 August 2004, Pages 4055-4066

doi:10.1016/j.bmc.2004.05.033   

MAO inhibition by arylisopropylamines: the effect of oxygen substituents at the β-position 


> Mauricio Osorio-Olivaresa, Marcos Caroli Rezendea, , , Silvia Sepúlveda-Bozab, Bruce K Casselsc and Angélica Fierroa
> 
> aFacultad de Quı́mica y Biologı́a, Universidad de Santiago, Casilla 40, Correo 33, Santiago, Chile
> 
> bFacultad de Ciencias Médicas, Universidad de Santiago, Casilla 442, Correo 2, Santiago, Chile
> 
> cMillennium Institute for Advanced Studies in Cell Biology and Biotechnology and Departamento de Quı́mica, Facultad de Ciencias, Universidad de Chile, Las Palmeras 3425, Santiago, Chile
> 
> Received 26 January 2004;  revised 17 May 2004;  accepted 26 May 2004.  Available online 22 June 2004.
> Abstract
> 
> Twenty-nine arylisopropylamines, substituted at the β-position of their side chain by an oxo, hydroxy, or methoxy group, were evaluated in vitro as MAO-A and MAO-B inhibitors. The oxo derivatives (`cathinones') were in general less active as MAO-A inhibitors than the corresponding arylisopropylamines, but exhibited an interesting MAO-B inhibiting activity, which was absent in the hydroxy, methoxy, and β-unsubstituted analogues. These results suggest that selective affinity for the two MAO isoforms in this family of compounds is modulated not only by the aryl substitution pattern but also by the side-chain substituents on the arylalkylamine scaffold.
> 
> Twenty-nine arylisopropylamines with an oxo, hydroxy, or methoxy side-chain β-substituent were prepared and evaluated in vitro as MAO-A and MAO-B inhibitors.


----------



## Coolio

vecktor said:


> they should also do their homework properly, I got all this with an hour of googling.
> I should be a due dilligence consultant, my standard rate is 2K USD per day
> 
> V



Thanks for your efforts man.


----------



## Tryptamite

Yeah thanks for the info Vector.


----------



## kong

Are there drugs that could be taken as emergency antidotes to severe vasoconstriction?

Viagra comes to mind...but I'm sure there are others.

Obviously a hospital would be in the cards for me personally if I had any doubts, but if an antidote exists and can be used safely I'd like to use it as soon as possible in the event of an adverse reaction.

I didn't notice any vasoconstriction with mephedrone, but I only took it up to 350mg and the effect it had on my heart left me with no desire to repeat the experience.  

I am more worried about the DOX series as those tend to numb my extremities the most.


----------



## Coolio

Yeah, I would love to know if there is an uncontrolled antidote to drug-induced vasoconstriction, preferably with no effects of its own.


----------



## mr.grey

vecktor said:


> please be careful with this stuff, used in moderation it is _probably_ reasonably safe perhaps no worsethan methcathinone itself.
> 
> V



Thank's a lot Vecktor for all this information!
What would you consider as a moderate amount?
Something like 200-400mg per night or (much) less?

I have contact with two vendors and based on the information I have received from them plus some rough extrapolation, I would say that around 8-10kg of Mephedrone (maybe even more) are sold in europe every week.
With a dose of 200mg, this would mean that 50.000 doses are consumed every week.
Based on that amount I think that the reports of worrying side effects are quite low, but on the other hand I'm not sure how many of the affected people actually report their problems.
Does anyone have information how long it usually took scientists in the past to start researching a new drug?
I would really appreciate if some labs would do some research on that stuff soon, so we actually know what we're dealing with.

Have such studies be done with Methylone already?
I'd guess so, but if anyone has an actualy link on some, that would be awesome.


----------



## Ximot

I am really thinking twice now whether I should really order this drug


----------



## vecktor

^
sadly the academic research is usually done a few years after the substance is illegalised, it was for methcathinone and 4-MTA.

an interesting point about the absolute incidence of adverse effects, I would be interested to know how often adverse effects, such as numbness or coldness of the extremities, excessive heart rate, headache, occur. 
if 50,000 doses are being consumed a week it would appear to be 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 50,000 based on reported problems the true incidence could be higher. this is several orders of magnitude more often than MDMA, where well over 500,000 doses a week are being consumed in Europe. 4-MTA was about  1 in 25,000 doses resulting in severe complications.

as for what is a moderate dose/ or use? I don't know. but I would suggest levels that as an absolute maximum, no more than around 200-300mg per session and 5-7 days between sessions as a detox period, any more than that and the ephedrine like metabolite is accumulating. if it is like ephedrine frequent use will also raise the risk of cardiovascular problems, stroke heart attack etc. and ephedrine's cardiovascular toxicity effects young people too

Ephedrine use has been linked to numerous severe incidents in one report on ephedrine:


> Of most concern were the "sentinel" events, which were based on documentation that: 1) an adverse event had occurred; 2) the subject had consumed ephedra within 24 hours prior to the event or a toxicological examination showed ephedrine or one of its associated products in the blood or urine; and 3) an adequate investigation had evaluated for and excluded other causes.* A total of 21 sentinel events were identified with prior ephedra consumption: two deaths, four myocardial infarctions, nine strokes, one seizure, and five psychiatric cases.** *About half of all sentinel events occurred in persons aged 30 years or younger*, although this could easily reflect patterns of spontaneous reporting.


http://nccam.nih.gov/news/alerts/ephedra/working-group.htm

there is not an easy way to deal with the vasoconstrictive properties, in studies with cathinone the vasoconstrictive properties were found to be at least partially working through a mechanism other than adrenergic agonism, perhaps indirectly through epithelin or other peptide?

I personally wouldn't touch this stuff with fastandbulbous's metaphorical shitty stick

does anyone know what enzyme reduces cathinones to hydroxy compounds?

the other question I have is how many half lives of the metabolite should one wait before redosing to avoid excessive accumulation of the metabolite? I think 4 half lives,  guessing about 20hrs? that way only an eigth of the previous doses metabolite is present as a background level.

next I shall be looking at 4-fluoromethcathinone, and also the particularly worrying *beta keto DOB and betaketo 2CB,* which both look like a real disasters.


----------



## MurphyClox

vecktor said:


> does anyone know what enzyme reduces cathinones to hydroxy compounds?



AFAIK, the exact enzyme was not studied in detail. But such a metabolic reactions usually take place in liver microsomes, and are performed by dehydrogenases, carbonyl reductases or CYP450s.
- _Murphy_


----------



## flacky

Coolio said:


> Yeah, I would love to know if there is an uncontrolled antidote to drug-induced vasoconstriction, preferably with no effects of its own.



Maybe Yohimbine would work due to its effects at the adrenergic receptors?

Simply having a vasodilator would be counterproductive. The best thing to do is to attack the actual mechanism by doing the reverse of it on the same receptor. (kind of like how using a stimulant won't stop a Heroin OD, but Naloxone will).

I'd be worried, though about Yohimbine's 5-HT receptor affinity in conjunction with this drug, though. Anyone want to weigh in on this? I mean, this is probably the only OTC preparation which will have an effect on the adrenergic receptors (which are probably the receptors which are responsible for Mephedrone's vasoconstrictive properties).


----------



## pofacedhoe

flacky said:


> Maybe Yohimbine would work due to its effects at the adrenergic receptors?
> 
> Simply having a vasodilator would be counterproductive. The best thing to do is to attack the actual mechanism by doing the reverse of it on the same receptor. (kind of like how using a stimulant won't stop a Heroin OD, but Naloxone will).
> 
> I'd be worried, though about Yohimbine's 5-HT receptor affinity in conjunction with this drug, though. Anyone want to weigh in on this? I mean, this is probably the only OTC preparation which will have an effect on the adrenergic receptors (which are probably the receptors which are responsible for Mephedrone's vasoconstrictive properties).



the thought of yohimbine with mephedrone goes through me


----------



## flacky

Well, it might be the only OTC option of countering Mephedrone-related vasoconstriction. The common theory ATM is a hydroxy-metabolite's action on the adrenergic receptors. Yohimbine could counter that. I mean, can _you_ think of any other OTC adrenergic agents?


----------



## pofacedhoe

^no but personally i think medical emergencies involving vasoconstriction are the domain of a doctor. i know things (but would lack confidence in solving a drug based medical emergency with more drugs off my own bat)yet not eough as also a doctor would have access to something a bit more effective with less peripheral side effects. 

as not everone experiences the same effects from drugs i.e beta blockers and the paradoxical response, i would assume that people getting a random medical crisis may have slightly different body style (at the genetic level) and therefore maybe more unussual reactions to things. they might be fine and this may work but i would rather have a doctor solve the emergency of my friend than risk doing more damage to them myself. 

if a situation is serious then running the risk of law enforcement is something i would do to help my friend and i'm not a person to panic or place my faith in the authorities-they have yet to acheive any help with my bipolar, its been up to me to find a life that works. but i am afraid of playing doctors and nurse when a person needs the real thing.


----------



## flacky

Trust me, I think it's best in the hands of a doctor too. I'm just answering a question put before me.


----------



## vecktor

^ It is far from certain that an adrenergic antagonist would help in any way, I would have thought that the mechanism is adrenergic agonism, but it might not be, vanilla cathine appear to be able to cause vasoconstriction in an interesting way.



> For them to contract the coronary artery by a sympathomimetic action, they would do so via α-adrenoceptors in a similar manner to noradrenaline. Like noradrenaline they would therefore be susceptible to blockade by the α1-adrenoceptor antagonist, prazosin. There was no antagonism of cathinone- or MDMA-induced contractions by prazosin (in the presence of cocaine). The coronary vasoconstrictions by cathinone and MDMA *do not therefore appear to be mediated through an indirect sympathomimetic action or via α1-adrenoceptors. *This finding contrasts with earlier observations at other sites where cathinone is reported to have indirect amphetamine-like actions by releasing noradrenaline (Kalix, 1983) and MDMA increases blood pressure of anaesthetized rats via α1-adrenoceptors (McDaid and Docherty, 2001).
> 
> The mechanism by which cathinone and MDMA cause coronary vasoconstriction cannot be identified from this study but the possibility must be considered that they are releasing other endogenous vasoconstrictors such as angiotensin or endothelin or activating a novel receptor system. The source of such vasoconstrictors, however, is not the endothelium, since removal of the endothelium failed to attenuate the cathinone- and ecstasy-induced contractions. Furthermore, endothelium removal did not enhance the contractions, indicating that they do not concurrently release endothelium-associated vasodilator mediators,


doi:10.1016/j.vph.2007.03.001


----------



## kfluxsake

In response to the paramethyl ephedrine metabolite being 3.4 x as toxic as ephedrine - the statement is pretty arbitrary: are you referring to liver toxicity/neurotoxicity ?

Ephedrine is only v weakly neurotoxic - especially when compared to other amphetamine analogues. Mephedrone is likely a much safer high than mdma (no lipid peroxidation due to depleted 5-HT and related dopamine misplacement) or speed (no significant release - it's a DRI)

Contrbutions above would suggest it is only a weak substrate inhibitor of MAOI. But everything about its effects is telling me otherwise: 

1) The relative absence of initial mdma-like 'come up' sensation on further redosing 

2) No significant comedown: miraculous considering the undisputed initial serotonergic effect

3) The fact that I experience above effect in its totality despite taking an SSRI daily - something unachievable on mdma

4) Long action perceptible well into next day


----------



## vecktor

kfluxsake said:


> In response to the paramethyl ephedrine metabolite being 3.4 x as toxic as ephedrine - the statement is pretty arbitrary: are you referring to liver toxicity/neurotoxicity ?
> 
> Ephedrine is only v weakly neurotoxic - especially when compared to other amphetamine analogues. Mephedrone is likely a much safer high than mdma (no lipid peroxidation due to depleted 5-HT and related dopamine misplacement) or speed (no significant release - it's a DRI)
> 
> Contrbutions above would suggest it is only a weak substrate inhibitor of MAOI. But everything about its effects is telling me otherwise:
> 
> 1) The relative absence of initial mdma-like 'come up' sensation on further redosing
> and this is evidence of maoi activity- give me a break
> 
> 2) No significant comedown: miraculous considering the undisputed initial serotonergic effect
> yeah you can assign a specific neurochemical action to an experienced effect, bullshit. if that was the case why bother with pharmacology
> 
> 3) The fact that I experience above effect in its totality despite taking an SSRI daily - something unachievable on mdma
> this has absolutely nothing to do with anything, ssris inhibit uptake of MDMA by sert. so how is this evidence of MAOI activity
> 4) Long action perceptible well into next day
> did you read anything about the half life of beta hydroxy amines? how is long action anything like evidence of MAOI activity other drugs which aren't MAOIS can last a while too




so once again we have half baked rubbish being posted. 

who suggested anything about neurotoxicity or hepatotoxicity??

the toxicity figures are for killing rabbits and guinea pigs. nothing arbritrary about it, at a dose 3 or so times less than the dose of ephedrine required to kill half the rabbits,  half the rabbits died.  dead is easy to determine. 

this is tiresome.
If people are going to make statements how about they post some fucking evidence, how about the evidence being a bit more solid than "hey man this stuf kinda felt serotoninergic and stuff" 

the numbers of adverse events versus doses consumed suggest that mephedrone is not safer than MDMA.


----------



## flacky

vecktor said:


> ^ It is far from certain that an adrenergic antagonist would help in any way, I would have thought that the mechanism is adrenergic agonism, but it might not be, vanilla cathine appear to be able to cause vasoconstriction in an interesting way.
> 
> 
> doi:10.1016/j.vph.2007.03.001



Well, I'm just saying, with the information available to me in this thread before your posted that citation, it would seem that yohimbine would possibly be useful as an OTC antidote.


----------



## vecktor

flacky said:


> Well, I'm just saying, with the information available to me in this thread before your posted that citation, it would seem that yohimbine would possibly be useful as an OTC antidote.



possibly, I wouldn't want to bet on it personally though


----------



## kfluxsake

> 1) The relative absence of initial mdma-like 'come up' sensation on further redosing
> and this is evidence of maoi activity- give me a break
> 
> 2) No significant comedown: miraculous considering the undisputed initial serotonergic effect
> yeah you can assign a specific neurochemical action to an experienced effect, bullshit. if that was the case why bother with pharmacology
> 
> 3) The fact that I experience above effect in its totality despite taking an SSRI daily - something unachievable on mdma
> this has absolutely nothing to do with anything, ssris inhibit uptake of MDMA by sert. so how is this evidence of MAOI activity
> 4) Long action perceptible well into next day
> did you read anything about the half life of beta hydroxy amines? how is long action anything like evidence of MAOI activity other drugs which aren't MAOIS can last a while too



1) In the case of someone taking an ssri, yes, quite simply it is. Tell me another mechanism through which i would feel the ABSOLUTELY 100% DEFINITE serotonergic effects. 

The point is that with an MAOI you would have the enzyme destroyed on 1st dose, further dosing would not 'further destroy' that enyme, hence the inability to re-experience peak.

2) WHAT? So you're saying you can't feel that amphetamine is dopaminergic/noradrenergoc, mdma serotonergic (with other things going on admittedly) and so on? In that case you can't trust your intuition, I can.

3) Actually SSRIs do not inhibit reuptake of mdma, they block reuptake of serotonin, preventing mdma from releasing it from the vesicles. The evidence for this postulated MAOI action is stated in 1)

4) You may have a point there, and that was my weakest postulation. Probably the residual effects are the ephedrine metabolites, i put my hand up on that one.

THERE IS little evidence since this is completely UNRESEARCHED. You're looking for something you won't find. In the meantime allow people to speculate and contribute, it can only lead to a greater understanding of mephedrone overall.

To conclude: you now have one report of a tangible serotonergic effect experienced in somebody taking an SSRI with mephedrone. That opens up questions don't you think, in that it rules out serotonin release as a primary mode of action; meaning serotonin related toxicity of the sort seen with mdma is highly unlikely . I don't know about anyone else, but I think that is valuable in itself.


----------



## lineartransform

I have found that doses of 400mg to 800mg of l-arginine taken along with the first bomb of mephedrone reduces or eliminates the "cold" feeling that sometimes arises. Perhaps vasoconstriction is reduced.

I cannot provide more proof than this anecdote - but l-arginine is uncontrolled, cheap, and has a good safety profile. Go to a health food store.


----------



## vecktor

kfluxsake said:


> 1) In the case of someone taking an ssri, yes, quite simply it is. Tell me another mechanism through which i would feel the  ABSOLUTELY 100% DEFINITE serotonergic effects.
> 
> The point is that with an MAOI you would have the enzyme destroyed on 1st dose, further dosing would not 'further destroy' that enyme, hence the inability to re-experience peak.
> I don't follow??? that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever
> 
> 2) WHAT? So you're saying you can't feel that amphetamine is dopaminergic/noradrenergoc, mdma serotonergic (with other things going on admittedly) and so on? In that case you can't trust your intuition, I can.
> 
> that is exactly what I am saying, I am aware of a series of chemically similar DAT inhibitors NET/DAT inhibitors and mixed NET/DAT/SE inhibitors- where it is impossible to arrange them based on subjective effects what you think is a SE effect can be DA mediated, NE and DA are difficult to distinguish etc
> I don't trust your intuition or your grasp of neuropharmacology
> 
> 3) Actually SSRIs do not inhibit reuptake of mdma, they block reuptake of serotonin, preventing mdma from releasing it from the vesicles. The evidence for this postulated MAOI action is stated in 1)
> 
> I wasn't aware SSRI's work primarily by interfering with VMAT, thats a new one to me. vesicular amine transporter and vesicular amine storage are a system that is not neccessarily effected by drugs that act as inhibitors of synaptic transporters. and vice versa
> 
> 4) You may have a point there, and that was my weakest postulation. Probably the residual effects are the ephedrine metabolites, i put my hand up on that one.
> most of your postulations have no strength whatsoever
> 
> THERE IS little evidence since this is completely UNRESEARCHED. You're looking for something you won't find. In the meantime allow people to speculate and contribute, it can only lead to a greater understanding of mephedrone overall.
> 
> unlikely, if people want to speculate and hypothesise it helps if their speculation fits with the limited evidence available.
> So far in this entire thread I am the only one who has actually bothered to look at the literature. I went I looked and whilst I haven't reached a conclusion I found things that concern me, so I posted it complete with references so people can look for themselves. On the other hand so far you have posted nonsensical ramblings based on subjective musing
> 
> To conclude: you now have one report of a tangible serotonergic effect experienced in somebody taking an SSRI with mephedrone. That opens up questions don't you think, in that it rules out serotonin release as a primary mode of action; meaning serotonin related toxicity of the sort seen with mdma is highly unlikely . I don't know about anyone else, but I think that is valuable in itself.


 All this assumes that your subjective assessement has any real validity, it doesn't. you should offer your services to Pharmaceutical companies radioligand assays are expensive, you could just taste the compound and tell them, save a whole lot of money for them.

IMHO the whole neurotoxicity idea is a red herring, it is the cardiovascular  toxicity that has presented itself repeatedly, high blood pressure especially for 2 days at a time -yes I looked at your other posts is really not good for you  and your organs particularly the kidneys



*Used in moderation this drug is probably not that harmful, however it clearly has a potential to be dangerous*, and reminds me a lot in that way of when 4-MTA came onto the scene in 98 and 99.  I have been around a long long time

I hate to have to take the position of demolishing the crap that has been posted, I have reached no specific conclusions as of now, so far I have some serious misgivings about this drug. someone give me some sound reasoning and some logic. please


----------



## flacky

lineartransform said:


> I have found that doses of 400mg to 800mg of l-arginine taken along with the first bomb of mephedrone reduces or eliminates the "cold" feeling that sometimes arises. Perhaps vasoconstriction is reduced.
> 
> I cannot provide more proof than this anecdote - but l-arginine is uncontrolled, cheap, and has a good safety profile. Go to a health food store.



Hmm, I forgot about L-Arginine. That's actually a really good idea. L-Arginine should promote Nitric Oxide synthesis in the body and thus vasodilation. Have you had any experience with taking the L-Arginine _after_ the dose as a sort-of antidote or only as a prophylactic measure?


----------



## Sykik

Vecktor,
I must admit I have no new knowledge to contribute to this ADD of mephedrone. However I would like to sincerely thank you for your effort in highlighting some of the potential threats, and suggesting a _maximum_ safe*ish* dose, and don't worry I'm not taking your advice as Gospel. As this did help me when I dosed this particular drug the other night, i would of dosed around 300mg as I was afraid to dose higher due to the metabolites involved.

I really enjoyed the drug, and I know that dosing in quick succession is ill advised, and without your input I may of seen myself going out the next night and dosing again. So thank you Vector, and let's hope people with equal reasoning skills as yourself give intellectual input into this discussion, so that users like myself, can minimize harm. Thank-You


----------



## Coolio

vecktor said:


> you should offer your services to pharmaceutical companies radioligand assays are expensive, you could just taste the compound and tell them, save a whole lot of money for them.



lol


----------



## kfluxsake

Fair cop. Good luck on saving the world from a benign chemical, and you're right about the neurotoxicity issue being a 'red herring': not one anecdotal report i've come across has hinted at post-mephedrone lapses in cognition, memory loss, dysphoria et al. (when dosed sensibly) which is a far cry, say, from mdma. 

W have a recreational compound that poses little _observable_ danger to the brain and body besides perhaps a little vasoconstriction at very high doses. I'm down with that.

Personally i couldn't give a rat's arse if something gave me high blood pressure or caused a little vasoconstriction, so do coke/all other uppers. In my own experience neither symptoms have even come close to problematic at average/high doses over extended periods. 

My only caveat would be to keep a beta-blocker like propranolol handy and a benzo for sleep.

Update: It occurred to me (too late) that you are correct to cite a lack of significant maoi effect, but failed to identify the one blaringly obvious reason why: taking SSRI with an maoi, I would almost certainly have experienced serotonin syndrome, or symptoms to that effect, which I did not.


----------



## pofacedhoe

^mephedrone in my experience has a lot of the same probelems that arise from mdma use afterwards the biggest one being a vicious temper (though happy with it) and poor impulse control.

its not benign in fact from the reaction i have seen by friends of mine after one line its every bit as addictive as cocaine. one friends comment- "ow this stuff really isnt good for your nose, wtf?", followed an hour later by "wheres the meph lets have more now!"

we dont know how it works and why when i find coke unattractive i cannot leave meph alone even in the presence of obvious physical side effects...


----------



## pofacedhoe

vecktor said:


> I hate to have to take the position of demolishing the crap that has been posted, I have reached no specific conclusions as of now, so far I have some serious misgivings about this drug. someone give me some sound reasoning and some logic. please




the reason you are not reciveing any logical response is that combined with the NO INFORMATION available people are trying desperately to defend themselves from the worry that doing to much meph clearly causes as instinct tells us that taking hard drugs is bad. its like people making up superstition.


----------



## kfluxsake

> the reason you are not reciveing any logical response is that combined with the NO INFORMATION available people are trying desperately to defend themselves from the worry that doing to much meph clearly causes as instinct tells us that taking hard drugs is bad. its like people making up superstition.



That sounds like projection if ever i heard it


----------



## pofacedhoe

kfluxsake said:


> That sounds like projection if ever i heard it



oh yeah, youre right. i'm the worst for twisting things to suit my own fears and what i see in myself i see in others

defending meph with no real knowledge though shows the grip it has on people(myself included). although it seems well tolerated the addictive potential is big


----------



## vortex30

What's the point of defending a stimulant with MDMA properties that you abuse? Does it give you piece of mind or something? Just accept that you're OBVIOUSLY taking a risk and that if you're a causality, well, many people saw it coming. Its not like you weren't forewarned.


----------



## lineartransform

vortex30 said:


> What's the point of defending a stimulant with MDMA properties that you abuse? Does it give you piece of mind or something? Just accept that you're OBVIOUSLY taking a risk and that if you're a causality, well, many people saw it coming. Its not like you weren't forewarned.



I would disagree - this seems to be based on nothing more than a Protestant projection of "unearned" happiness, which must necessarily be accompanied by a corresponding down.

Mephedrone certainly has a rather uncertain safety profile, but just because it feels good doesn't mean it must have terrible effects later. It is a risk. But there seems to be far too much "feeling" that mephedrone must be bad without a corresponding rationale absent emotion / appeal to existing bias.


----------



## YaniCZka

sorry guys, probably a bit too simple question for such a scientific discussion, but since you all seem to be very wise on the topic, which vitamins / supplements would you suggest to preload / use after the meph session? Thks


----------



## kfluxsake

lineartransform said:


> I would disagree - this seems to be based on nothing more than a Protestant projection of "unearned" happiness, which must necessarily be accompanied by a corresponding down.
> 
> Mephedrone certainly has a rather uncertain safety profile, but just because it feels good doesn't mean it must have terrible effects later. It is a risk. But there seems to be far too much "feeling" that mephedrone must be bad without a corresponding rationale absent emotion / appeal to existing bias.



Ontology/religion aside, It's true there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I haven't taken any for a week. I expected an order to arrive which has been delayed, and _did_ await its arrival far too eagerly. But I'm now glad the wheels of commerce didn't run so smoothly, as if they had, I think I would have gone on a binge, and subsequently wouldn't have the clarity of mind I'm enjoying now.

As sure is the sky is blue ,any mood altering substance will carry rebound effects. I suppose all I'm saying is that, with this particular one, the stakes are not so high as for mdma and coke, even at levels of drug piggery *for this poster*, with regard to subsequent effects on mood. I _would _like to know if it has latent, possibly less easily perceived effects on the user 1,2,3 weeks down the line.

I would also like it if the majority of recreational drug users/clubbers were able to have ready access to  safer alternatives to impure ecstasy tablets and mdma, I think my defence of mepehdrone reflects this. 

That it will certainly carry its own risks and post-use difficulties, nobody will pretend to deny, but it might be a lesser of an array of evils. Only time will tell...


----------



## kfluxsake

YaniCZka said:


> sorry guys, probably a bit too simple question for such a scientific discussion, but since you all seem to be very wise on the topic, which vitamins / supplements would you suggest to preload / use after the meph session? Thks



Dunno. Maybe an ssri post-use? That might be ineffective however if the drug turns out to not have any relevant affinity for SERT. Otherwise, a benzo to smoothen the landing is wise, and a beta-blocker if you run into any problems w tachychardia.


----------



## kfluxsake

What's f+b's view on this particular little fellow I wonder?


----------



## vortex30

lineartransform said:


> I would disagree - this seems to be based on nothing more than a Protestant projection of "unearned" happiness, which must necessarily be accompanied by a corresponding down.
> 
> Mephedrone certainly has a rather uncertain safety profile, but just because it feels good doesn't mean it must have terrible effects later. It is a risk. But there seems to be far too much "feeling" that mephedrone must be bad without a corresponding rationale absent emotion / appeal to existing bias.



Seriously? Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful. If we were talking about Opiates or THC then you've got a point, but a powerful stimulant like Mephedrone is, no matter WHAT, doing damage to both your brain and your body (heart). Where is this coming from, that I'm taking some completely unsupported stance? The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity. Unless you have something to counter this with, please save me the "Protestant projection".

The question is HOW toxic is Mephedrone, not IS Mephedrone toxic for a reason. If you actually think there is even a small chance that Mephedrone could be a completely benign drug (health wise) such as Opiates, then err, I dunno, start researching drugs more.


----------



## ebola?

OMG said:
			
		

> Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful.



This is correct, with qualifications.  The jury's still out on whether 5ht efflux + DARI would cause a large enough increase in dopamine to cause neurotoxicity.  The jury is also still out on to what degree these various cathinone-derivatives act primarily as reuptake inhibitors or monoaminergic releasers, at which sites.  Mephedrone also lacks the 3,4-methylenedioxy substitution that makes in-vivo metabolites more neurotoxic.

I'm intrigued, in particular, that a few anecdotes suggest that mephedrone works normally when taken with an SSRI.  Then again, so does meth-amp, a known serotonergic neurotoxin.

All this said, I'd be very surprised if it turns out that mephedrone bears NO neurotoxicity.



> no matter WHAT, doing damage to both your brain and your body (heart).



This hinges on level of dosage, frequency of use, etc.  Take MDMA, for example.  It effects significant activity at 5ht2b, which is known to be cardiotoxic.  Very few people take enough MDMA often enough to cause themselves MDMA-specific cardiac disease.



> The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity.



Yes, but under what conditions of use?  One must take ridiculous doses of d-amphetamine to cause this type of neurotoxicity.



> If you actually think there is even a small chance that Mephedrone could be a completely benign drug (health wise) such as Opiates, then err, I dunno, start researching drugs more.



NO kidding; people have died. 

ebola


----------



## Sykik

I just though I would add this link into this disscussion:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/4_methylmethcathinone/4_methylmethcathinone_health1.shtml 

Basically a summary of two bad toxic reactions to this drug, similar to the reaction on page two of this thread.

 Also what type of supplements are beta-blockers?


----------



## MurphyClox

^Beta-blockers:

- non-selective: Propranolol, Sotalol, Carvedilol >> Structures

- beta1-selective: Atenolol, Metoprolol, Bisoprolol >> Structures

In general, beta-blockers are antagonists at the beta-subtype of the adrenergic receptors, causing lowering of the blood-pressure.

- _Murphy_


----------



## lineartransform

vortex30 said:


> Seriously? Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful. If we were talking about Opiates or THC then you've got a point, but a powerful stimulant like Mephedrone is, no matter WHAT, doing damage to both your brain and your body (heart). Where is this coming from, that I'm taking some completely unsupported stance? The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity. Unless you have something to counter this with, please save me the "Protestant projection".
> 
> The question is HOW toxic is Mephedrone, not IS Mephedrone toxic for a reason. If you actually think there is even a small chance that Mephedrone could be a completely benign drug (health wise) such as Opiates, then err, I dunno, start researching drugs more.



Of course the question is HOW toxic it is - but we appear to accept drugs such as cocaine and amphetamines (which act in a similar manner) as relatively safe given certain behavioural/dosage/etc limits. In short, harm reduction.

There are no histronic posts on how one should never, ever consider doing cocaine, but posts of a similar nature with mephedrone seem to be popping up more and more. All I'm suggesting is that we should consider it to have a similar safety profile to these stimulants, take appropriate precautions, and not freak the f out until more evidence is provided illustrating that mephedrone is in fact distinctly different from these classic drugs.


----------



## pofacedhoe

vortex30 said:


> Seriously? Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful. If we were talking about Opiates or THC then you've got a point, but a powerful stimulant like Mephedrone is, no matter WHAT, doing damage to both your brain and your body (heart). Where is this coming from, that I'm taking some completely unsupported stance? The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity. Unless you have something to counter this with, please save me the "Protestant projection".
> 
> The question is HOW toxic is Mephedrone, not IS Mephedrone toxic for a reason. If you actually think there is even a small chance that Mephedrone could be a completely benign drug (health wise) such as Opiates, then err, I dunno, start researching drugs more.




even caffeine is harmfull to the heart at stong doses so its pretty obvious that mephedrone is dangerous on a level with speed or ritalin, what bothers me is that in some way the alleged 5th2b heart issues are gonna be far worse than mdma ( in some opinions that have been educatedly presented) which is known to have an effect in this receptor that could be like fenfluramine). cocaine gives me a hell of a lot of tension in my chest and i get very tense uncomfortable heart area after even drinking coca tea for the day). the way i see it is that its (mephedrone) dangers are on a level with amphetamine use.

i consider speed to be dangerous and unhealthy and it blows my head off.

mephedrone is the same (it feels unhealthy and i confidently know it is dangerous) but my brain feels alright after use and my head isn't blown off.

therein is my distinction.


----------



## flacky

pofacedhoe said:


> even caffeine is harmfull to the heart at stong doses so its pretty obvious that mephedrone is dangerous on a level with speed or ritalin



Ive snorted copious lines of speed and ritalin and I have never had my extremities become ice cold. I think it's a little irresponsible to compare mephedrone to those two.


----------



## ebola?

How much academic research on mephedrone has been published?
How much on amphetamine, cocaine, or methylphenidate?
Therein lies the distinction.

ebola


----------



## mr.grey

I have recently talked online again with a guy I know who is doing Meph regularily and quite heavily.
He was really testing every different Meph batch he could get his hands on from different vendors, trying to find out about the differences in them and so on. He was really making some kind of small scientific program out of it, ranking the different versions with numbers and so on. 
He also said, that he think's he might have ADHD and the Mephedrone seems to actually have a therapeutic use for him.
So when I asked him how much he was doing, he said it would be 1.5-2.5g per day since about 3 month now 

Be aware, I can of course not guarantee that this is 100% true, but I do belive it and he has no reason to lie to me about it.

He also said, that he did get some tolerance in the beginning but then not anymore and it is still working fine on him and he is still getting the positive effects.

What he noticed is that he is not in such a good shape anymore and when he has to go stairs up and down he is short of breath faster than usual, but otherwise he did not notice any serious negative effects. He said, he can now ever sleep better than before and when he wakes up in the morning he feels fresh and good, even better than before?!?
He said he was working out a lot in the last 7 month and has a good body and is quite fit and so he is not really concerned about his use.
He said he knows that he can not keep this up long term and plans to make a loger break soon.

Anyway, the reason I'm writing this is, because this guy has consumed MUCH more than anyone else I have ever heard of so far.

I find this quite amazing, and would love to hear "vecktor"s opinion on it, especially in regard to the calculated LD50 of 3.3g and the betahydroxy metabolite accumulating.
Is it really possible that some people can just handle such stuff much better and don't get any problems???

Please be aware: I'm not trying to say that Mephedrone is a harmless substance by posting this! Not at all! I just try to report a real life case that I find quite amazing, nothing more.

I have used Mephedrone in the last couple of month very moderate (max. 500mg per week) and with the recent reports about the vasconstriction problems coming up, have decided to stop at least for 3 weeks now and after that plan to do it only 2 times per month in moderate doses.

Again, this is a mostly unresearched chemical and only because it seems to not cause any problem even in extremely high amounts for the person I wrote about, does not mean it can not cause big problems even in very small amounts for other people!


----------



## pofacedhoe

flacky said:


> Ive snorted copious lines of speed and ritalin and I have never had my extremities become ice cold. I think it's a little irresponsible to compare mephedrone to those two.



in which direction do you see them belonging? this response seems ambiguous to me?

^doing this drug in large amounts daily is very ridiculous, the breathlessness thing seems quite concerning considering if he is working out he mustbe overstraining his body a fair bit


----------



## FractalDancer

mr.grey said:


> I have recently talked online again with a guy I know who is doing Meph regularily and quite heavily.
> He was really testing every different Meph batch he could get his hands on from different vendors, trying to find out about the differences in them and so on. He was really making some kind of small scientific program out of it, ranking the different versions with numbers and so on.
> He also said, that he think's he might have ADHD and the Mephedrone seems to actually have a therapeutic use for him.
> So when I asked him how much he was doing, he said it would be 1.5-2.5g per day since about 3 month now
> 
> Be aware, I can of course not guarantee that this is 100% true, but I do belive it and he has no reason to lie to me about it.



Does he note any change to mental health? Apart from exercising, internet and drugs, what does he do in the day.. has he noticed any change in ability to do tasks etc? I presume if he thought he had ADHD he finds the mephedrone helps him focus more on tasks... would be interested to hear more about this guy if he is not just telling loads of lies to make himself sound macho or something


----------



## flacky

pofacedhoe said:


> in which direction do you see them belonging? this response seems ambiguous to me?



I'm saying that mephedrone is in no way comparable to ritalin and amphetamine in terms of safety.


----------



## mr.grey

FractalDancer said:


> would be interested to hear more about this guy if he is not just telling loads of lies to make himself sound macho or something



I'll try to get more information and will then post it.
What I can confirm is, that he has definitely bought enough mephedrone regularily, so that the given numbers are realitstically and unless he has given it all away or threw it out of the window, the numbers seem quite possible to me.
Also he did not brag in any way, quite the opposit.
I only knew that he was taking quite a lot of Mephedrone and that he did so many times a week.
We talked about different batches of Mephedrone and the difference in effects and stuff like that, on a regular basis. 
That's why I asked him two days ago, how much it was he was actually consuming and then he came up with these numbers.
So based on all I know, I really do believe that the numbers are correct.


----------



## kfluxsake

vortex30 said:


> Seriously? Its a stimulant that increases the amount of Dopamine and Serotonin in the synapse. It is INHERENTLY harmful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The oxidation of Dopamine, creating free radicals == neurotoxicity. Unless you have something to counter this with, please save me the "Protestant projection".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is relevant to mdma. It is not relevant to mephedrone if it works as expected on top of an ssri.  You haven't said whether you've ever taken it.
> 
> If so did it 'feel' neurotoxic?
Click to expand...


----------



## kfluxsake

ebola? said:


> This is correct, with qualifications.  The jury's still out on whether 5ht efflux + DARI would cause a large enough increase in dopamine to cause neurotoxicity.  The jury is also still out on to what degree these various cathinone-derivatives act primarily as reuptake inhibitors or monoaminergic releasers, at which sites.  Mephedrone also lacks the 3,4-methylenedioxy substitution that makes in-vivo metabolites more neurotoxic.
> 
> I'm intrigued, in particular, that a few anecdotes suggest that mephedrone works normally when taken with an SSRI.  Then again, so does meth-amp, a known serotonergic neurotoxin.
> 
> All this said, I'd be very surprised if it turns out that mephedrone bears NO neurotoxicity.
> 
> 
> 
> This hinges on level of dosage, frequency of use, etc.  Take MDMA, for example.  It effects significant activity at 5ht2b, which is known to be cardiotoxic.  Very few people take enough MDMA often enough to cause themselves MDMA-specific cardiac disease.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but under what conditions of use?  One must take ridiculous doses of d-amphetamine to cause this type of neurotoxicity.
> 
> 
> 
> NO kidding; people have died.
> 
> ebola



Bump.

It has been pointed out here that the  4-methyl group distinguishes itself from other cathinones by lacking significant serotonin efflux as a primary/secondary mode of action (though it is also a substrate inhobitor at SERT*)

This leaves bog standard dopaminergic neurotoxicity as seen with the amphetamines as the only other significant risk factor, bar the peripheral cardiovascular side effects.


*http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14629733


----------



## Coolio

kfluxsake said:


> If so did it 'feel' neurotoxic?



There is no way to subjectively feel or perceive brain damage / neurotoxicity. To think otherwise ought to disqualify you from further discussions in ADD.


----------



## flacky

I think we should all just start ignoring kfluxsake for the sake of this thread and not allowing it to be filled with misinformation (with the exception of that _one_ journal citation).


----------



## vecktor

flacky said:


> I think we should all just start ignoring kfluxsake for the sake of this thread and not allowing it to be filled with misinformation (with the exception of that _one_ journal citation).



especially as he hasn't read the single journal article which he references, which incidently doesn't support a damn thing he says.
 FWIW a quick scan read of the article... it does not mention 4-methyl substituted cathinones or their serotinergic activity or lack of instead it refers to vanilla cathinone and 4-MTA.
the evidence supports the following hypothesis: kfluxsake talks out of his arse. I have yet to see anything that indicates otherwise.

the article does contain the following references concerning the vascular and visceral pathology of vanilla methcathinone use. this might make interesting reading.

Mamrova, G. P., B. V. Sherstiuk, D. V. Bogomolov, M. Ozdamirova
Iu & A. Nikolkina Iu: [Epidemiologic analysis of ephedrone substance
abuse in the Primorye territory]. Sud. Med. Ekspert. 2001,
44, 30–32.

Pigolkin Iu, I. & B. V. Sherstiuk: [The histopathology of ephedrone
drug abuse]. Sud. Med. Ekspert. 1996, 39, 26–28.

McCann, U. D., D. F. Wong, F. Yokoi, V. Villemagne, R. F. Dannals
& *G. A. Ricaurte: * Reduced striatal dopamine transporter
density in abstinent methamphetamine and methcathinone users:
evidence from positron emission tomography studies with
[11C]WIN-35,428. J. Neurosci. 1998, 18, 8417–8422.


----------



## ZeuZzZ

*Whoops*

*How toxic is mephedrone?* I dont have a clue. But I might be able to help some people here have a bash from my personal experience.

Embarrassing and Stupid Part: I did 10g of meph in a period of a week. I had been sold it and introduced to it by a guy who said "yer m8, itz fukin bwilliant shit, u can dwo it awl week and nuffin bad will happen, no cumdawn or nefing" (it was actually worse english than that, but you get the message; fuckwit). Anyway, to cut to the point, it ended in disaster and the symptoms I experienced may help some people come up with some hypothesis about the potential toxicity of meph.


The first six days seemed largely ok in terms of *major* side effects. The normal stimulant enduced racing heart I was particularly aware of with meph though, much more than any other. Average resting pulse was 130 at the beginning of the binge, by the end of the week it rarely went above 100BPM no matter how much I did. On day seven consumed 1.5 grams. And this is where the problems started.

I first noticed noticed that my head was hurting, and I had a sharp pain at the back of my neck where my skull joined to my spine (cervicogenic headache) whenever I moved around. I then realised how bad my headache really was, it felt like my brain was too big for my skull and there was pressure spreading all around my head, with a particularly bad pressure behind my eyes and ears when I moved around. I stood up to look at myself in the mirror and then noticed the colour of my hands. The tips of my fingers had turned slightly purple, and my hands looked very red as if covered in a huge red rash. Then I started to feel extremely light-headed, as if I was going to black out, so I lay down and stuck my feet in the air to get circulation to my head.

It was then that I noticed the colour of my knees. My knees had gone dark purple, as if covered by a massive bruise, and my feet were very pale and white. Which make me think it wasn't normal vasoconstricion, as my lips were fine aswell as my feet. Then I noticed my elbows had also turned red like my hands and had a slightly purple tip to them like my knees. I suddenly felt very hot and decided to walk out onto the street with my mates to cool off and wait for the ambulance they'd just phoned out of concern.

Then I pretty much blacked out, I felt extremely light-headed and had to sit on the ground and was covered from head to toe in sweat. There was also (paradoxically for lightheadedness) a strong feeling of pressure in my head which felt immense, it felt as if my brain was trying to squeeze its way out of my eye sockets. My hands were now turning from red to blue/purple like my knees were.

When in hospital and laying down on the emergency bed my knees kept getting darker and darker purple and it was spreading round to the back of my knees too, and an odd pimply red rash was developing on my elbows. Also noticed cold sores in my mouth and loss of sensitivity to my legs and arms when they were not moving. Whenever I got up it felt like I would pass out and I had to keep drinking lots of water. The hospital was extremely busy, and It took THREE hours for a doctor to see me. When she did come she seemed completely uninterested in my extremely bizarre symptoms and just gave me a “you're a very naughty boy” look and wrote down on the paper “amphetamine abuse”, without even asking what type of amphetamine I had taken or what the real problems I were experiencing were. They rigged me up to a heart monitor, monitored my oxygen levels and put a blood pressure monitor on for the night. My heart rate stayed at ~100 for eight hours, and the blood pressure and oxygen levels were apparently normal. The colour to my hands elbows and knees was quite better by the morning but still very odd. They discharged me eight hours after I had arrived. 



So this was six months ago. The color has slowly gotten better ever since, but the knees especially are still oddly colored on occasions, especially whenever I use any stims. Oddly some days they are completely fine, some days they are really terrible again.

So, any people here with any knowledge have any theories about what may have caused all this and thus make any useful deducions about mephs toxicity? I think that theres an odd mix of cardiovascular and auto-immune symptoms to show for me. The auto-immune being temporary and only on the night really, and the cardio aspect seems more permanent.

Someone on another forum made the following suggestion, which I dont know if it hold any merit or not, but the images of the condition did quite closely match the symptoms on the night:

"The skin symptoms are similar to some of the symptoms of dermatomyositis, which is an autoimmune disease of the skin and muscles. The actual mechanism is a focal vasculitis seen at the joints (knee, elbow, knuckles) which is mediated by the compliment pathway of the immune system clogging up capillaries. High doses of mephedrone probably trigger some sort of compliment or other immune system activation, creating a temporary vasculitis. A vasculitis would be more consistent than vasoconstriction given the symptoms since it is thin areas of skin rather than distal extremities which show changes."

Which produced the following picture which was the closest I could really get to it (the one on the left, and mine was darker and more widespread with less defined edges):









And heres a pic of my legs six months later on an average day, still showing the symptoms, but it really varies dramatically from day to day. Some days people stare at me as if I've inherited legs from a smurf, some days they are 100% okay and back to normal. I haven't worked out yet what gives me a normal color day or a bright purple/blue day.













So thats that. Didn't use it for six months after that, but tried a small amount the other day which brought the purpling symptoms back bad again. I may just be an exception or a one off unlucky case, in which case I dont want to scare people shitless about a chemical that a lot of people derive so much pleasure from (me included at the time) but I feel its better to share whatever info I have then ignore it ever happened. 

I look forward to reading anyones replies and thoughts about anything this may tell us about meph. Thanks.


----------



## ZeuZzZ

ebola? said:


> I'm intrigued, in particular, that a few anecdotes suggest that mephedrone works normally when taken with an SSRI.  Then again, so does meth-amp, a known serotonergic neurotoxin.




Another purely anecdotal point I can add here is that after my aforementioned madness I have been on an SSRI (citalopram) for three months now. And when I tried a small amount of meph a few days ago I got no really worthwhile effects from the meph at all, I merely felt slightly stimulated but nothing like meph usually feels like in the slightest. Its effects definately felt blocked to me. I still got all the side effects, ie Racing heart (120BPM) and the discolored joints came back. However, what I also found interesting is that despite its lack of positive effects I still had an extremely large temptation to redose; just as much as when I used meph when not on the SSRI. So the fiending reputation it has is obviously not down to its serotonin activity (which [like MDMA] I found tollerance builds up to rapidly) but due to other factors, most likely its dopamine activity. (pharmacology noob here, so take this with a pinch of salt please!)

Are there many accounts of people getting full effects on SSRI's with Meph? Because I found the COMPLETE opposite personally. Would be curious to see these accounts If you know where I may find them.


----------



## Riklet

I've only taken mephedrone once and I think it caused "damage" to me on some level.  Got heart pains and chest weirdness, fast/slow pulse which got stronger and weaker randomly for weeks.  Felt quite tired for the first few days afterwards too, and dizzy too... then the heart stuff began.  It just felt like my heart was closer to the surface of my chest, it's a really hard thing to describe, especially as it got worse at different times of day and stuff.  It was a scary feeling, and made me anxious, although I don't think it was rooted in anxiety, although a few people in EADD were pretty condescending and said so...

I have never had a drug experience which sketched me out as much.  I had a wicked time doing meph, did maybe 400mg and it was indeed fun, but it worried me a fair amount afterwards.  The chest stuff didn't feel normal or good at all, and it inspired me to quit smoking and to start drinking less.... over 4 months later I feel a lot better.  Even still, a single use of mephedrone (combined with lots of booze) really didn't agree with me, and I still have these red spots on my chest which I think are due to the experience.  I can't be sure though.

People are being fucking stupid with mephedrone, and whilst fun it's clearly not the best thing to be abusing.


----------



## kfluxsake

flacky said:


> I think we should all just start ignoring kfluxsake for the sake of this thread and not allowing it to be filled with misinformation (with the exception of that _one_ journal citation).



I'm curious as to _why_?  Please site examples of this misinformation. The journal article IS the only piece of suggestible scientific evidence I have provided, yes. But in the complete absence of empirical eveidence what is their_ but specualtion_! 

Also I realised the journal refers to plain vanilla cat. I made that clear. Read my post - at no point did i say that the results referred 4-methylmethcathinone. 

Please remember i take an ssri. I might be in much less danger than others re toxicity - Read ZeuZZ's post about taking mephedrone w. citalopram. 

For this reason i don't see fit to participate in this thread any longer as a subject for reference.


----------



## kfluxsake

Kluxsake says:


> It has been pointed out here that the  4-methyl group distinguishes itself from other cathinones by lacking significant serotonin efflux as a primary/secondary mode of action (though it is also a substrate inhobitor at SERT*)


So just to reiterate for Vecktor, or any one else confused or nettled about the citation. You will see I use the word _other_ to refer to, yes, you guessed it, _other_ cathinones; namely methcathinone. I present the distinction BETWEEN 4-mmc and methcathinone- the former being a known releaser of serotonin, the latter remaining ambiguous in that respect pending ACTUAL data on the drug's effects in vivo.


----------



## ZeuZzZ

vecktor said:


> McCann, U. D., D. F. Wong, F. Yokoi, V. Villemagne, R. F. Dannals & *G. A. Ricaurte: * Reduced striatal dopamine transporter density in abstinent methamphetamine and methcathinone users: evidence from positron emission tomography studies with [11C]WIN-35,428. J. Neurosci. 1998, 18, 8417–8422.



Warning! potential academic fraud alert. Best to ignore this paper if Ricaurte was responsible for it, or any others that cite it for that matter.


----------



## mr.grey

Riklet said:


> I've only taken mephedrone once and I think it caused "damage" to me on some level.  Got heart pains and chest weirdness, fast/slow pulse which got stronger and weaker randomly for weeks....



@Riklet: Did you use similar drugs like MDMA or Methylone before your Mephedrone experience already?

I know one person who never did any drugs before and then did Meph two times.
First time was VERY sensitive to it and half a dose was probably felt like a double dose for normal people.
So the experience ended negative with some panik attack and stuff like that.
After that tried it another time and while the experience itself was good, afterwards negative thought loops started and guilt was felt (the person is basically anti drugs!).
Then irregular heart beat was felt for a couple of days afterwards and now even more than 3 month after the last experience from time to time falshbacks occur where the feeling of sound- and (small) visual distortion is apparent together with fast heart beat.
I believe these symptoms to be psychosomatic and I know of one other person who also get's similar symptoms (but a bit different) every now and then and he has used Mephedrone maybe 6-8 times, but also stopped using it.

I know these things can happen with other drugs too, but I just wonder if Mephedrone use results in a higher chance of triggering these in people that are vulnerable to such things.


----------



## vecktor

kfluxsake said:


> Kluxsake says:
> 
> So just to reiterate for Vektor, or any one else confused or nettled about the citation. You will see I use the word _other_ to refer to, yes, you guessed it, _other_ cathinones; namely methcathinone. I present the distinction BETWEEN 4-mmc and methcathinone- *the former being a known releaser of serotonin,(1)* the* latter remaining amibigious in that respect pending ACTUAL data on the drug's effects in vivo.(2)*



(1) known in the scientific sense? post the ref. AFAICT this appears to be a reference to Nukes musings on the subject.

(2) as for methcathinone's effects on serotonin please just read the paper YOU cited and the references therein.

or are you getting confused again, however the nomal English usage of former is first, and latter is last.

I think you really need to get your head round pharmacology, 

a substrate for a transporter protein is yes you guessed it something that is transported by said transporter. 
SSRI'S do not, at normal clinical doses, block all SERT activity.
Only some SSRI's block the subjective effects of MDMA.
Serotonin syndrome is not an inevitable consequence of mixing a SE releaser and a SSRI, nether is it inevitable with a SE releaser and a MAOI or all three at once.

come back when you can post stuff that:
1, makes sense
2 is supported by scientific literature where possible, or doesn't blatently contradict the literature.
3 that doesn't contradict itself.
4 and shows that you actually have the faintest clue what you are talking about

I am not going to bother answering you in future until you meet 1 thru 4( see above)
Have a nice day.


----------



## gasgas

*Vasoconstriction*

I'm a total newcomer here but have always been interested in drugs, and recently 'legal' highs due to the nature of my profession, along with a friend of a friend who is occasionally tempted by opening the doors of perception. 

I'm not strictly a pharmacologist but work in a critical care environment and can tell you for sure that what you see in the pictures above is vasoconstriction mediated by direct or indirect alpha-1 agonism as a result of this compound.. We treat patients in septic shock with massive doses of vasopressors just to maintain blood pressure to vital organs at the expense of peripheral perfusion and digits (think kids with amputations after meningococcal septicaemia) - now imagine what that does to the haemodynamics of an otherwise healthy person and tell me that's not dangerous.

 The risks are severe, heart failure, pulmonary oedema, and anyone with an undiagnosed berry aneurysm in their brain using this compound is playing with fire (perhaps a ticking time bomb would be a more appropriate analogy.) 

Clearly there are people here who have a thorough grasp of pharmacology and just as clearly there are wannabe's who misguidedly post trying to justify their use through bad science. 

People are natural to be defensive, and nobody's perfect (I still smoke despite my profession and of course I deny to myself that anything bad will ever happen to me!) but I felt I had to post in the interests of *harm reduction*; which after all, is why most of us are here.

One last note - it is *inherently dangerous taking a concommitant beta-blocker *(unless you thoroughly understand the drugs involved) as taking the wrong one WILL exacerbate the vasospasm, leading to MI (heart attacks) and loss of fingers/toes. And if you don't know what the right ones are, then you are safest not taking them at all.

I realise this sounds patronising - but I felt I had to contribute when people are arguing the toss about their health. 

GG

nb. listen to Vecktor. he speaks sense.


----------



## Riklet

mr.grey said:


> @Riklet: Did you use similar drugs like MDMA or Methylone before your Mephedrone experience already?



Yep, took methylone... once before, and MDMA maybe erm... 20-25 times or so.  Never had any kind of physical problems from either, I don't think.  I've taken methylone a couple of times since the meph experience and it felt ok, although a fast heart didn't feel too great and maybe brought back the chest stuff slightly.  I also do MDPV fairly regularly and it hasn't ever resulted in anything like what I experienced from meph, although as it's a stimulant it's probably not fantastic for me.

Mephedrone seems fairly unique; I felt incredibly fucked and yet could talk pretty clearly, didn't look too mashed and stuff.  It's just... not worth it though, for me at least? I'm mainly basing my views on this drug of that which i've experienced, as well as the large amount i've read.  Most people seem to respond fine in the short term, but not all.  As for the long term, who knows...


----------



## ZeuZzZ

Vecktor: Do you think there is anything useful you can deduce about the potential toxicity of meph from the symptoms I showed in this post on the previous page?

Cheers.


----------



## mr.grey

Riklet said:


> Yep, took methylone... once before, and MDMA maybe erm... 20-25 times or so.  Never had any kind of physical problems from either, I don't think.  I've taken methylone a couple of times since the meph experience and it felt ok, although a fast heart didn't feel too great and maybe brought back the chest stuff slightly.  I also do MDPV fairly regularly and it hasn't ever resulted in anything like what I experienced from meph, although as it's a stimulant it's probably not fantastic for me.
> 
> Mephedrone seems fairly unique; I felt incredibly fucked and yet could talk pretty clearly, didn't look too mashed and stuff.  It's just... not worth it though, for me at least? I'm mainly basing my views on this drug of that which i've experienced, as well as the large amount i've read.  Most people seem to respond fine in the short term, but not all.  As for the long term, who knows...



Thank's for the quick reply.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that chest weirdness and irregular heart beat and the other symptoms you describe and have experienced quite a while after the last intake have a medical background as the drug should be gone from your system already.
Therefore it must be something psychosomatically.
Like I said, also a friend of mine has these issues (but never had any previous drug experience with other substances).
That's why I was interested if you have taken any other stuff previously.
So as you have done MDMA a couple of times already and did not have these problems from MDMA use, it must be related to Mephedrone somehow.
I would also say that these symptoms seem to be anxiety related like the people on EADD mentioned, but it may be on a subconcious level you are not aware of.
I am no psychologist, but basically these are the symptoms you get when you have anxiety attacks and stuff like that.
So maybe Mephedrone triggers something on deeper psychological level in a small number of people that does lead to these symptoms/problems as I doubt any metabolit could cause these issues for such a long time.
If anyone else would like to share their thoughts on these issues that seem to appear in some people even weeks after mephedrone use, it would be much appreciated.


----------



## egor

@gasgas - Thanks for clearing up my understanding on the exact means the mephedrone goes about causing its vasoconstriction.

Still would not take it if you paid me...


----------



## stimutant

mr.grey said:


> ...as the drug should be gone from your system already.
> Therefore it must be something psychosomatically.





sorry, thats bullshit. what about a real (semi-)permanent damage?
i think most people really underestimate meph & they`re taking way to much of it.


----------



## rickolasnice

What can be done to combat vasoconstriction (specifically when dealing with meph)?


----------



## egor

^thats what people are trying to figure out as we speak


----------



## mr.grey

brainbug said:


> sorry, thats bullshit. what about a real (semi-)permanent damage?
> i think most people really underestimate meph & they`re taking way to much of it.



I would agree to (semi) permanent damage if Riklet was a heavy user, but he said he only took it once and only 400mg.
That is not a huge amount actually.
Also the person I was refering to got the effects after the second time she was using it.
First time it was only maybe 130mg and the second time it was also just 130-140mg
She is very sensitive to stimulants, that's why the small amount.

So this is not a heavy use at all and I'm not an expert on the topic, but I think based on such small amounts there can not really be any physical damage. That's why I tend to think that it's a psychological issue.

If such small amounts would cause physical damage to the brain already, then I think we would have seen much more severe cases from people who use it in larger amounts and much more heavily.


----------



## gasgas

rickolasnice said:


> What can be done to combat vasoconstriction (specifically when dealing with meph)?



IMHO, this drug has a very low therapeutic index - ie/ there is little if any gap between the spectrum of desired and toxic effects.

So the answer to your question is simply to limit your dosing, both in amount of drug consumed and duration. Which is hard because its human nature not to.

The problem is that 4-MMC is deeply flawed as a designer drug.


----------



## gasgas

mr.grey said:


> I would agree to (semi) permanent damage if Riklet was a heavy user, but he said he only took it once and only 400mg.
> That is not a huge amount actually.
> Also the person I was refering to got the effects after the second time she was using it.
> First time it was only maybe 130mg and the second time it was also just 130-140mg
> She is very sensitive to stimulants, that's why the small amount.
> 
> So this is not a heavy use at all and I'm not an expert on the topic, but I think based on such small amounts there can not really be any physical damage. That's why I tend to think that it's a psychological issue.
> 
> If such small amounts would cause physical damage to the brain already, then I think we would have seen much more severe cases from people who use it in larger amounts and much more heavily.



Utterly different compound, admittedly, but I have seen heart attacks and strokes resulting in permanent damage from first time ingestion of cocaine.


----------



## mr.grey

gasgas said:


> Utterly different compound, admittedly, but I have seen heart attacks and strokes resulting in permanent damage from first time ingestion of cocaine.



But was it a large amount of cocaine or only small amounts?
Like I said, I don't have much knowledge in this field unfortunately but when someone consumes a large amount of cocaine in a night, even if it is his first time only, I would not be surprised if he got a heart attack or something else, especially if he may be vulnerable to such thing because of some medical condition.
In the end this is simply a medical thing. Cocain is strong on your heart and on your whole system, raises blood pressuer and so on. This can of course then lead to such problems.

The two cases I was talking about on the other hand were dealing with psychological problems similar to anxiety attacks and flashbacks. This can also happen with other drugs like MDMA (and especially psychedelics), but Riklet for example has done such drugs like Methylone and MDMA before, without any problems, but then got it after his first time use of Mephedrone.

Brainbug suggested that this could be because of (semi) permanent damage as a result of the consumption.
I don't believe this, because in this case we are then not talking about heart problems or strocks or other peripheral things, but would be talking about brain damage and if such small amounts like one time 400mg or two times 130mg would cause brain damage already that manifests in the symptoms described, then we would have seen horrible problems already in the people consuming that stuff in large amounts every week.
But that is not the case.
All these problems I have read about and for which I believe are psychological seem to still be quite minor and usually involve some kind of flashbacks and syptoms similar to anxiety attacks.
These things also happen to some people after consuming MDMA or other drugs and there are a couple of threads here on bluelight dealing with them as well.
I was therefore just wondering if Mephedrone may have a higher chance of triggering such things or even giving it a more negative undertone.

@gasgas: Thank's a lot for posting here and I hope you will continue to do so.


----------



## pofacedhoe

ZeuZzZ said:


> Another purely anecdotal point I can add here is that after my aforementioned madness I have been on an SSRI (citalopram) for three months now. And when I tried a small amount of meph a few days ago I got no really worthwhile effects from the meph at all, I merely felt slightly stimulated but nothing like meph usually feels like in the slightest. Its effects definately felt blocked to me. I still got all the side effects, ie Racing heart (120BPM) and the discolored joints came back. However, what I also found interesting is that despite its lack of positive effects I still had an extremely large temptation to redose; just as much as when I used meph when not on the SSRI. So the fiending reputation it has is obviously not down to its serotonin activity (which [like MDMA] I found tollerance builds up to rapidly) but due to other factors, most likely its dopamine activity. (pharmacology noob here, so take this with a pinch of salt please!)
> 
> Are there many accounts of people getting full effects on SSRI's with Meph? Because I found the COMPLETE opposite personally. Would be curious to see these accounts If you know where I may find them.



feinding is nearly always attributed to a rapid increase in dopamine in the neucleus accumbens and a short duration of this increase

also^ if your gonna have a strong effect on the serotonin system then negative effects along the lines of those associated with MDMA are to be expected. i find mephedrone doesnt leave a dip in mood but definitely lowers my tolerance to events causing anger to happen far more often (a friend observed this also in herself). also the most concerning out of the things that no-one brought up yet is effects on memory??


----------



## gasgas

mr.grey said:


> But was it a large amount of cocaine or only small amounts?
> 
> 
> @gasgas: Thank's a lot for posting here and I hope you will continue to do so.



Cocaine is used as an anaesthetic for some types of endocscopic nasal surgery. The British National Formulary lists the toxic threshold at 1.5mg/kg, (say 105mg for a 70kg man) above which the risk of coronary vasospasm and arrythmias increases dramatically.

That is only equivalant to about a line or two, recreationally speaking (on the assumption it is one hundred percent pure of course!). So it's a small amount.

I read the ADD board frequently but I doubt I'll post much unless something gets me really interested (like this particular hot topic), despite your kind comment. 

(because my own form of harm reduction is only to come here when I need to - otherwise it inspires me to do things I shouldnt!)


----------



## Coolio

mr.grey said:


> Brainbug suggested that this could be because of (semi) permanent damage as a result of the consumption.
> I don't believe this, because in this case we are then not talking about heart problems or strocks or other peripheral things, but would be talking about brain damage and if such small amounts like one time 400mg or two times 130mg would cause brain damage already that manifests in the symptoms described, then we would have seen horrible problems already in the people consuming that stuff in large amounts every week.
> But that is not the case..



I agree. If there's to be any easily diagnosed neurotoxicity from recreational use, we'd see obvious neurological problems with the heaviest bingers out there right now, not some outliers.


----------



## ebola?

> a substrate for a transporter protein is yes you guessed it something that is transported by said transporter.
> SSRI'S do not, at normal clinical doses, block all SERT activity.
> Only some SSRI's block the subjective effects of MDMA.



Intriguing.  Which SSRIs do not?


----------



## vecktor

ebola? said:


> Intriguing.  Which SSRIs do not?



I will check the paper tonight. I thought it interesting.

V


----------



## kfluxsake

vecktor said:


> (1) known in the scientific sense? post the ref. AFAICT this appears to be a reference to Nukes musings on the subject.
> 
> (2) as for methcathinone's effects on serotonin please just read the paper YOU cited and the references therein.
> 
> or are you getting confused again, however the nomal English usage of former is first, and latter is last.
> 
> I think you really need to get your head round pharmacology,
> 
> a substrate for a transporter protein is yes you guessed it something that is transported by said transporter.
> SSRI'S do not, at normal clinical doses, block all SERT activity.
> Only some SSRI's block the subjective effects of MDMA.
> Serotonin syndrome is not an inevitable consequence of mixing a SE releaser and a SSRI, nether is it inevitable with a SE releaser and a MAOI or all three at once.
> 
> come back when you can post stuff that:
> 1, makes sense
> 2 is supported by scientific literature where possible, or doesn't blatently contradict the literature.
> 3 that doesn't contradict itself.
> 4 and shows that you actually have the faintest clue what you are talking about
> 
> 
> 
> I am not going to bother answering you in future until you meet 1 thru 4( see above)
> Have a nice day.



I will attempt to meet some of your requests, if only to try and reverse some of the misrepresentation I am attracting. Please note that while I find your hypocrisy wildly entertaining, it worries me a little that you are a moderator on a thread dedicating itself to advanced drug discussion at all.

1) You really ought to know this one. MDMA releases serotonin. Taken from http://www.psychotropical.com/CNS_stimulants_with_MAOIs.shtml 

_Large doses of MDMA cause a rapid release of endogenous serotonin from the stores in the presynaptic nerves; so much so that a substantial MDMA dose will deplete about eighty percent of the serotonin stores_

Please look literally anywhere for scientific literature supporting this claim.

Being new to the board, I have never heard of Nuke, so sorry, no.

2) Friend, it would appear YOU are the one who hasn't read the paper. You've TWICE failed to grasp either of the two conclusions the author(s) made:

a) Those being that methcat is a substrate inhibitor (IT'S IN THE TITLE)
(from the paper discussed)

_"We previously reported that the psychostimulant drug methcathinone inhibits serotonin accumulation via the plasma membrane serotonin uptake transporter."
_
b) And that a superfusion of the drug causes efflux/release of serotonin

_"Supporting the hypothesis, superfusion of [3H]5-HT-containing platelets with methcathinone or with para-methylthioamphetamine produced a large increase in tritium efflux. The efflux declined when the drugs were removed."_

and also _"...Under superfusion conditions, transporter substrates will evoke an increase in released [3H]5-HT through a carrier-mediated exchange process."_



> however the nomal English usage of former is first, and latter is last.



By the by, I understand the correct use of former and latter. I happened to write the post on 2 hours of rough sleep spent in questionable comfort, so I assume you'll overlook a simple human error anyone of us could have made. Now hold on, you'd know about those...



> SSRI'S do not, at normal clinical doses, block all SERT activity.
> Only some SSRI's block the subjective effects of MDMA.



Again, from http://www.psychotropical.com/CNS_stimulants_with_MAOIs.shtml

_MDMA, ecstasy (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine) acts like tyramine, but seemingly more as a releaser of serotonin than noradrenaline, and its serotonergic action is blocked by serotonin reuptake inhibitors [14].
_
Let's take citlopram for example. The 'purest' SSRI (bar escitalopram, its isometrically cleaved relative)

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v22/n5/full/1395472a.html

 "_The main result of this study is that the psychoactive effects of 1.5 mg/kg MDMA were substantially attenuated by pretreatment with the SSRI citalopram (40 mg iv)._"

Note an earlier Ricaurte study of showed pretreatment of fluoxetine 20mg failed to attenuate serotonin release in rats dosed with mdma, the author suggesting a possible discrepancy in relative ability to block uptake of 5-HT between citalopram 40mg and fluoxetine 20mg as the cause. I suggest other factors relating to errors in the experiment, probably that the wrong test compound was used in the first place, if it forms part of a series relating to his other studies on mdma. The report below contradicts Ricaurte's findings and, if correct proves SRRIs PREVENT MDMA FROM WORKING. PLEASE PROVE OTHERWISE.

Fluoxetine: arguably the'dirtiest' SSRI in vivo (sertraline being a significant DRI in vitro) which despite being the first SSRI to be heavily marketed as such, is, in its ability to block 5HT-2C receptors, atypical of its class. Malonate is used in the study as a catalyst to mdma-induced neurotoxicity via 5-HT release. From http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/20/2/245

"_in this study we sought to determine whether pharmacological blockade of MDMA- and/or malonateinduced dopamine release prevents neurotoxicity. Fluoxetine, given 30 min prior to the malonate/MDMA combination, afforded complete protection against 5-HT depletion and reversed MDMA-induced exacerbation of dopamine toxicity found in the malonate/MDMA treated rats._"

3) "Serotonin syndrome is not an inevitable consequence of mixing a SE releaser and a SSRI" 

Well...um, duh. Why, if you know what you're talking about, would you even make such an obvious statement. Serotonin syndrome is AVERTED by taking an SSRI since, as I have made clear, it attenuates 99% of MDMAs ability to release 5-HT.

Are your terms met? Are you satisfied. I hope so.


----------



## vecktor

kfluxsake said:


> 1) You really ought to know this one. MDMA releases serotonin. Taken from http://www.psychotropical.com/CNS_stimulants_with_MAOIs.shtml
> 
> _Large doses of MDMA cause a rapid release of endogenous serotonin from the stores in the presynaptic nerves; so much so that a substantial MDMA dose will deplete about eighty percent of the serotonin stores_
> 
> Please look literally anywhere for scientific literature supporting this claim.
> 
> Being new to the board, I have never heard of Nuke, so sorry, no.
> 
> .



You were talking about 4-MMC and Methcathinone, so how is MDMA being a SE releaser supporting what you are saying, perhaps you should randomly mention fenfluramine or PCA as being SE releasers too? you couold even post literature refs.


----------



## kfluxsake

vecktor said:


> You were talking about 4-MMC and Methcathinone, so how is MDMA being a SE releaser supporting what you are saying, perhaps you should randomly mention fenfluramine or PCA as being SE releasers too? you couold even post literature refs.



Sorry. I was under the impression you were ignorant of that. Obviously not.

Since we know it is vasoconstrictive and perhaps cardiotoxic, now we can continue with the discussion of the drug. Proposing potential mechanisms of action and how this relates to (neuro) toxicity or lack thereof


----------



## vecktor

kfluxsake said:


> Sorry. I was under the impression you were ignorant of that. Obviously not.
> 
> Since we know it is vasoconstrictive and perhaps cardiotoxic, now we can continue with the discussion of the drug. Proposing potential mechanisms of action and how this relates to (neuro) toxicity or lack thereof



what is your obsession with neurotoxicity?
who gives a fuck if it is neurotoxic or not if it is toxic in other ways and kills or severely damages people. 
as I said earlier neurotoxicity is a minor concern, I think I said it was a red herring, the amount of neurotoxic damage required before anyone notices impacts on their everyday normal functioning is huge. 

I don't know whether 4-MMC is neurotoxic or not, neither do you. 

I would be much more interested in discussing the blue knee phenomenon.


----------



## kfluxsake

vecktor said:


> what is your obsession with neurotoxicity?
> who gives a fuck if it is neurotoxic or not if it is toxic in other ways and kills or severely damages people.



Urm, anyone who cares about their mental health, retaining their personality, memory, cognitive/executive functioning

Anyone who isn't already emotionally retarded from mashing their brains on pills and speed and god knows what else.

The safety margin appears to be relatively high . At <1.5g the majority will not experience any troubling side effects such as those described.


----------



## pofacedhoe

^^neurotoxicity is very small amount of damage, having a stroke is a large amount of brain damage. would you say that vasoconstrictive tendencies would heighten the chance of having a stroke? if so then this is toxicity that would encompase a lot of neurons.

what about stokes then^?


----------



## pofacedhoe

brainbug said:


> sorry, thats bullshit. what about a real (semi-)permanent damage?
> i think most people really underestimate meph & they`re taking way to much of it.



very true but on the subject of stimulant abuse and heart problems-my friend who has for a number of years been a heavy (2grams a night on average) user of cocaine (a drug with SRI effects that are strong) and thought he was having heart problems. after extensive medical tests and him admitting to them his use of xanax and alcohol the hospital came to the conclusion that he was suffering from anxiety and panic attacks (as his heart was indeed in okay shape). now what i am saying is that the lowering of serotonin in a person due to downregulating as a result of abusing the serotonin system (with stimulant drugs affecting said neurotransmitter) could appear just like mdma users who get panic attacks after they stop using the drug, i also found these effects to happen after discontinuing SSRI antidepressants.

of all the neurotransmitters to mess with serotonin has a very important inhibitory effect on behaviour and is therefore not something to mess with unless we want all our future choices to be affected. Altering long term capacity for judgement is not so clever.


----------



## kfluxsake

pofacedhoe said:


> Of all the neurotransmitters to mess with serotonin has a very important inhibitory effect on behaviour and is therefore not something to mess with unless we want all our future choices to be affected. Altering long term capacity for judgement is not so clever.



Agreed


----------



## kfluxsake

pofacedhoe said:


> ^^neurotoxicity is very small amount of damage, having a stroke is a large amount of brain damage. would you say that vasoconstrictive tendencies would heighten the chance of having a stroke? if so then this is toxicity that would encompase a lot of neurons.
> 
> what about stokes then^?



So irreversible brain damage from substance use is bad? But strokes are worse? Then yes ok. 

What is the likelihood of stroke on a scale of say 1-10 at the aforementioned dose, spaced out over 12 hours..


----------



## Hammilton

kfluxsake said:


> Sorry. I was under the impression you were ignorant of that. Obviously not.
> Since we know it is vasoconstrictive and perhaps cardiotoxic, now we can continue with the discussion of the drug. Proposing potential mechanisms of action and how this relates to (neuro) toxicity or lack thereof



You're not all that bright.  You were 'under the impression'?  Do some thinking.

I agree completely, neurotoxicity is a red herring.  There are far bigger concerns.



> So irreversible brain damage from substance use is bad? But strokes are worse? Then yes ok.



You really don't know what you're talking about.  Yeah, it's almost certainly neurotoxic.  Does it matter much?  No.

We're talking about very small changes that don't have any practical impact on daily functioning or even the ability to take tests.

And it's unlikely to even be irreversible.  Your brain can easily compensate for any changes that occur, and often within just a few days.  The changes themselves may indeed revert back, but even if they don't, most likely the changes will have no effect.  fMRI and PET scans show changes in the brain after various drug use, but tests of functioning show minor alterations in memory, cognition, intellect, etc.  

Why call it neurotoxicity if there's no impact on functioning or even test scores?

Vasoconstriction is a much more worrying issue.


----------



## mr.grey

Hammilton said:


> Vasoconstriction is a much more worrying issue.



The question in my opinion is, how much worse Mephedrone is as a vasconstrictor than similar substances.
I just checked Wikipedia and basically all stimulants and even some psychedelics act as a vasconstrictor.

On drug-forums (http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89052&page=2) user rb10101 posted that he got purple knee side effects from mephedrone use, but also mentions that he got the same side effects from methylone use.
The thing is just that people tend to abuse Mephedrone much more than for example Methylone, which makes it obvious that much more side effects are reported from Mephedrone use than from Methylone use.
However at least based on this post, Methylone also seems to be able to cause these problems...


----------



## pofacedhoe

kfluxsake said:


> So irreversible brain damage from substance use is bad? But strokes are worse? Then yes ok.
> 
> What is the likelihood of stroke on a scale of say 1-10 at the aforementioned dose, spaced out over 12 hours..



strokes are irreversible brain damage, neurotoxicity pales in comparrison to the scale on which a stroke will affect you


----------



## Mugz

saw a mention of l-arginine  earlier in the thread mentioning that it may help the short term effects of vasoconstriction, but there wasnt really any further discussion into it.

Would this supplement be worth taking just in case??


----------



## flacky

Here was the theory that I posed:



> L-Arginine should promote Nitric Oxide synthesis in the body and thus vasodilation.


----------



## kfluxsake

Vinpocentine and Cinnarizine (Stugreon) are both vasorelaxants in the brain. Not sure about the body though.

Stugreon is good if you have brutal nausea too.


----------



## pofacedhoe

kfluxsake said:


> Vinpocentine and Cinnarizine (Stugreon) are both vasorelaxants in the brain. Not sure about the body though.
> 
> Stugreon is good if you have brutal nausea too.



LOL i really dont want to get "brutal nausea" !


----------



## kfluxsake

Got the name all wrong - Stugeron - I think it's sold mostly as a motion-sickness OTC in the UK 

It's an antihistamine which somehow (no clue) blocks the messages being sent to the 'vomit centre' of the brain in motion sickness, thus preventing vomming. BUT It also inhibits the contraction of vascular smooth muscle cells -by blocking calcium channels- and reduces blood viscosity (http://home.intekom.com/pharm/janssen/stugeron.html) 

Dead man's knees no more?


----------



## closedeyevision

to go back to topic- mephedrone can = methemoglobinemia, anyone?
this haapens with some of the substituted amphetamines and a lot of the anecdotes of people turning blue etc sound a lot like it.

indeed here in scotland, two people were hospitalised with the condition after comsuming what they said was cocaine. A warning went out suggesting a contaminated batch of C, could it be they were hoofing mephedrone instead?


----------



## closedeyevision

back off topic lol- the vomiting centre contains histamine receptors, hence the use of anti-histamines


----------



## Artificial Emotion

closedeyevision said:


> to go back to topic- mephedrone can = methemoglobinemia, anyone?
> this haapens with some of the substituted amphetamines and a lot of the anecdotes of people turning blue etc sound a lot like it.
> 
> indeed here in scotland, two people were hospitalised with the condition after comsuming what they said was cocaine. A warning went out suggesting a contaminated batch of C, could it be they were hoofing mephedrone instead?



It's too difficult to say. It could have been so many different things for gods sake.


----------



## Sturnam

closedeyevision said:


> to go back to topic- mephedrone can = methemoglobinemia, anyone?
> this haapens with some of the substituted amphetamines and a lot of the anecdotes of people turning blue etc sound a lot like it.



What substituted amphetamines cause methemoglovinemia? I've never heard of this happening.


----------



## flacky

I think this person is confusing methemoglobinemia with vasoconstriction


----------



## kfluxsake

I doubt anyone read my post made earlier but i have a large addendum/
REVISION
I admit to getting it completely wrong.
Cinnarizine's only theraputic use is as an anti-emetic: one sharing the d-2 antagonism common among neuroleptics, and have since found one or two cases of extra-pyramidal symptoms in short-term use.

And Niacinamide which I also mentioned is useless as ot doesn't produce vasorelaxantion/dilaton or blood pressure lowering that its parent drug niacin does.

Propranolol is also contraindicated in cns stimulant use. As in asthmatics taking ephedrine. Here's a lazy and lazily referencered section on the subject from (erowid http://www.erowid.org/pharms/betablockers/)

_The alpha-adrenergic receptors control vasoconstriction while beta-adrenergic receptors control vasodilation. If a beta-selective chemical blocks the beta-adrenoreceptors while leaving the alpha-receptors unaffected and a stimulant is taken that would normally act on both alpha- and beta-receptors, there is the potential to cause a dangerous imbalance._

What did work actually was Viagra. I had some painful tightness and high blood pressure in my arm/wrist from nerve damage there. It definitely brought blood pressure in the arm and in general back down to normal, returning feeling etc. and no probs with hypertension or constriction were experienced.

I do worry though that my sinuses (sinii?) will forgive me for all the experimental re-landscaping work (a la thiepvalle ridge) done on them. STINGER


----------



## pofacedhoe

closedeyevision said:


> to go back to topic- mephedrone can = methemoglobinemia, anyone?
> this haapens with some of the substituted amphetamines and a lot of the anecdotes of people turning blue etc sound a lot like it.
> 
> indeed here in scotland, two people were hospitalised with the condition after comsuming what they said was cocaine. A warning went out suggesting a contaminated batch of C, could it be they were hoofing mephedrone instead?



mephedrone has been known to cause a tanned darker skin look and excessive use can leave me short of breath and dizzy...


----------



## Artificial Emotion

My friend died from taking what may have been a recreational dose of mephedrone or bk-mdma last week and his body was found on the wednesday. Sorry, I don't want to talk about it - I thought I'd just contribute my two cents. I was thinking of suing the company that made it but that's just me wanting someone to blame, which is wrong.


----------



## vecktor

Artificial Emotion said:


> My friend died from taking what may have been a recreational dose of mephedrone or bk-mdma last week and his body was found on the wednesday. Sorry, I don't want to talk about it - I thought I'd just contribute my two cents. I was thinking of suing the company that made it but that's just me wanting someone to blame, which is wrong.



I'm so sorry to hear this. 
PM me if you want to talk.

Please people, either be super careful of leave mephedrone alone until we understand it some more.


----------



## Eliphaz

Artificial Emotion said:


> My friend died from taking what may have been a recreational dose of mephedrone or bk-mdma last week and his body was found on the wednesday. Sorry, I don't want to talk about it - I thought I'd just contribute my two cents. I was thinking of suing the company that made it but that's just me wanting someone to blame, which is wrong.



I'm sorry to hear about your loss, and I'm sure all who read your post are. Your conclusion about the contemplation of going to blame someone is wise. But if after the acute phase you realized that some positive action amongst all the grief is possible, you would hopefully be inclined to release more information. Thinking of it, withdrawing information on the vendor, closer details on the "recreational" dosage, and even speculation on what level 4-MMC or bk-mdma was the cause of death, is likely to be a major factor in contributing towards further harm caused by these substances. Usage and discussion about them is frenzying, and your information could very well save further lives. Death from plain mephedrone or methylone usage is (unfortunately) big and sad news, from which thousands of people could (fortunately) benefit. I wish you strength.


----------



## Artificial Emotion

Whenever I take this drug I can't help myself from picking the stubble out of my chin constantly. Is this considered to be stereotyped behavior commonly associated with psychostimulants?


----------



## Hammilton

any effects you're not after?

Wow that's really limiting


----------



## nuke

If I recall right, excessive grooming is an effect on stimulants on rats...


----------



## pofacedhoe

Sparky1986 said:


> _Artificial Emotion_responsible and occasional use seems to have little harmful effects from the user's point of view.



yet that does not seem to be the pattern among users of this drug


----------



## vecktor

Sparky1986 said:


> _Artificial Emotion_, I'm very sorry for your loss. It looks like mephedrone is a chemical where harm reduction MUST be practised, regardless of speculated toxicity.
> _
> 
> I happen to know of a (popular) legal high product in the UK which contains mephedrone, it also has a herb called "hoodia" in it which I believe is a weak MAOI. Would anyone know why?
> 
> From what I've read combining stimulants/SERT releasers or modulators and MAOIs could be harmful (does anyone have any good citations for this?). Is it possible the "hoodia" is present to reduce vasoconstriction or other body-load effects?
> 
> _



I am not aware of hoodia being a MAOI, hoodia is a toxic weight loss supplement which contains a complex neurosteroid looking thing called P57 which screws with the hypothalamus and other areas of the brain that sense hunger. unfortunately as several pharma companies discovered it also shows hepatotoxicity and the appetite suppressant activity cannot be separated from this toxicity. the herb itself is prohibited for sale as appetite supressing supplements by the EU.


----------



## shoolameet

Artificial Emotion said:


> Whenever I take this drug I can't help myself from picking the stubble out of my chin constantly. Is this considered to be stereotyped behavior commonly associated with psychostimulants?



I know plucking at hair has been commonly seen with people who abuse ritalin (and I am pretty sure adderall as well,) but these are stimulants that are meant to make people focus. I don't know about this in regards to mephedrone though, and it might be hard to find anything on it because it's so new.


----------



## Artificial Emotion

I do it normally when people aren't looking. How do I get rid of this bizarre habit? I can't stop myself. Stimulants make me to it CONSTANTLY, even when people aren't looking. I also eat the stubble. I know this sounds rediculous but I assure you I'm being honest. At least I don't pick my nose and eat it.


----------



## lineartransform

Artificial Emotion said:


> I do it normally when people aren't looking. How do I get rid of this bizarre habit? I can't stop myself. Stimulants make me to it CONSTANTLY, even when people aren't looking. I also eat the stubble. I know this sounds rediculous but I assure you I'm being honest. At least I don't pick my nose and eat it.



This is grooming behaviour - like a previous poster said, it can be observed to increase in rats exposed to stimulants as well.

In people, it often manifests itself as a "nervous" trait - the girl who spins her hair constantly, nail biting, picking scabs (hello meth heads), etc. All will increase under the influence of stimulants.

I'm sure it's annoying - but it doesn't mean you're insane. Easiest way to "cure" this type of habit is classical conditioning. A clear nail polish that tastes bad is used for children who bite nails excessively, for instance.

I don't know what you should do - hire someone to fire an air horn every time you do it? Sorry.


----------



## shoolameet

Artificial Emotion, 
This is actually a symptom of impulse control disorder and it's called trichotilloma which is the uncontrollable urge to pull out ones body hair, and very often eat it. 25% of the people who do this also suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder. Just out of curiosity, do you ever do this when not under the influence? 
If not then it's probably just a result of your excess focus, energy or even your increased anxiety. Lineartransform made a good suggestion with the classical conditioning. The best suggestion I could make as far as that would be to make sure you are freshly shaved before dosing up... or decrease you stimulant use, which is sort of a sucky option.


----------



## Artificial Emotion

shoolameet said:


> Artificial Emotion,
> This is actually a symptom of impulse control disorder and it's called trichotilloma which is the uncontrollable urge to pull out ones body hair, and very often eat it. 25% of the people who do this also suffer from obsessive compulsive disorder. Just out of curiosity, do you ever do this when not under the influence?
> If not then it's probably just a result of your excess focus, energy or even your increased anxiety. Lineartransform made a good suggestion with the classical conditioning. The best suggestion I could make as far as that would be to make sure you are freshly shaved before dosing up... or decrease you stimulant use, which is sort of a sucky option.



Wow. According to my psychiatrist I actually have a number of traits of OCD (but not quite the full blown disorder)! How fascinating! I do do this when not under the influence and do it uncontrollably when I'm nervous. I do it so often it's second nature and quite often am not actually aware that I'm doing it. The nail polish idea is pretty cool.

I read somewhere that people who bite their nails live considerably shorter life spans and can suffer from cognitive defecits through ingesting toxins present under dirty fingernails.

After my friend's death I have been put off ingesting psychoactive drugs that do not have a long history of use by man, where the long-term side effects are unknown. Although mephedrone is probably not that harmful t's just too risky IMO.


----------



## pofacedhoe

Artificial Emotion said:


> Wow. According to my psychiatrist I actually have a number of traits of OCD (but not quite the full blown disorder)! How fascinating! I do do this when not under the influence and do it uncontrollably when I'm nervous. I do it so often it's second nature and quite often am not actually aware that I'm doing it. The nail polish idea is pretty cool.
> 
> I read somewhere that people who bite their nails live considerably shorter life spans and can suffer from cognitive defecits through ingesting toxins present under dirty fingernails.
> 
> After my friend's death I have been put off ingesting psychoactive drugs that do not have a long history of use by man, where the long-term side effects are unknown. Although mephedrone is probably not that harmful t's just too risky IMO.



the ocd tendencies tend to be found in those with low serotonin levels, and serotonin is important for control of dopamine based impulses towards rewards in the now so that we can behave in a way to acheive long term goals. serotonin is important for long term strategies, one of my friends used to say that anxiety and impulsivity are the same thing...???


----------



## shoolameet

so out of curiosity... which is worse for your serotonin levels; mephedrone or mdma? or equally as bad? i know mephedrone is more neurotoxic, but i am curious about just serotonin levels.


----------



## vecktor

shoolameet said:


> so out of curiosity... which is worse for your serotonin levels; mephedrone or mdma? or equally as bad? i know mephedrone is more neurotoxic, but i am curious about just serotonin levels.



who knows?

mdma is a known creature, mephedrone is an unknown, but it seems likely that it will be as bad as methcathinone.


----------



## Artificial Emotion

methcathinone isn't that bad though, is it?


----------



## Artificial Emotion

pofacedhoe said:


> the ocd tendencies tend to be found in those with low serotonin levels, and serotonin is important for control of dopamine based impulses towards rewards in the now so that we can behave in a way to acheive long term goals. serotonin is important for long term strategies, one of my friends used to say that anxiety and impulsivity are the same thing...???


 Maybe they're related but I don't think they're the same thing. Impulsivity is a result of one's inability to control actions or urges, whereas anxiety is basically fear. For example, if you're anxious about money problems, you're fearing the worst case scenario - that you will become bankrupt and destitute for example.


----------



## vecktor

Artificial Emotion said:


> methcathinone isn't that bad though, is it?


Neurotoxic and pharmacologic studies on enantiomers of the N-methylated analog of cathinone (methcathinone): a new drug of abuse

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/279/2/1043


> these studies evaluated neurotoxic and pharmacologic properties of the R(+) and S(-) enantiomers of methcathinone, a psychostimulant drug that has surfaced in the illicit drug market, primarily in the S(-) form. Neurotoxic potential toward brain dopamine (DA) and serotonin (5-HT) neurons was assessed by measuring DA and 5-HT axonal markers and by means of silver degeneration studies; pharmacologic effects were evaluated by measuring locomotor stimulation. Methcathinone produced dose-related neurotoxic and locomotor stimulant effects which were species- and enantiomer-dependent. In mice, although both enantiomers produced toxic effects on DA neurons, the R(+) enantiomer was more potent, and neither enantiomer produced long-term effects on 5-HT neurons. By contrast, in behavioral studies, both enantiomers increased mouse locomotor activity, but the S(-) enantiomer was more potent, which suggests that methcathinone's neurotoxic and locomotor stimulant effects may be separable. Additional studies were done with rats, because mice are often refractory to 5-HT neurotoxicity induced by amphetamines. In the rat, both enantiomers produced toxic effects on DA neurons, only S(-)-methcathinone produced toxic effects on 5-HT neurons, and both enantiomers produced comparable locomotor stimulant effects. Together, these results indicate that: 1) Methcathinone has the potential to damage DA and 5-HT neurons; 2) Methcathinone neurotoxicity is enantiomer and species dependent; 3) Methcathinone's neurotoxic and locomotor stimulant effects are dissociable in mice but not rats; and 4) N-methylation confers 5-HT toxic activity onto cathinone, the N-desmethyl derivative of methcathinone, which is known to lack 5-HT neurotoxic activity.



http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/18/20/8417

Reduced Striatal Dopamine Transporter Density in Abstinent Methamphetamine and Methcathinone Users: Evidence from Positron Emission Tomography Studies with [11C]WIN-35,428



> Methamphetamine and methcathinone are psychostimulant drugs with high potential for abuse. In animals, methamphetamine and related drugs are known to damage brain dopamine (DA) neurons, and this damage has recently been shown to be detectable in living nonhuman primates by means of positron emission tomography (PET) with [11C]WIN-35,428, a DA transporter (DAT) ligand. The present studies determined whether living humans with a history of methamphetamine or methcathinone abuse showed evidence of lasting decrements in brain DAT density. PET studies were performed in 10 control subjects, six abstinent methamphetamine users, four abstinent methcathinone users, and three patients with Parkinson's disease (PD). On average, subjects had abstained from amphetamine use for ~3 years. Before PET studies, all subjects underwent urine and blood toxicology screens to rule out recent drug use. Compared with controls, abstinent methamphetamine and methcathinone users had significant decreases in DAT density in the caudate nucleus (23 and 24%, respectively) and putamen (25 and 16%, respectively). Larger decreases in DAT density were evident in patients with PD (47 and 68% in caudate and putamen, respectively). Neither methamphetamine nor methcathinone users showed clinical signs of parkinsonism. Persistent reductions of DAT density in methamphetamine and methcathinone users are suggestive of loss of DAT or loss of DA terminals and raise the possibility that as these individuals age, they may be at increased risk for the development of parkinsonism or neuropsychiatric conditions in which brain DA neurons have been implicated.


^ possibly the above study is flawed because of the manganese present in illicit methcathinone

but I would say methcathinone is probably as bad as methamphetamine.


----------



## ebola?

> but I would say methcathinone is probably as bad as methamphetamine.



Wow.
Would you say that this is true on a per-milligram basis or at doses that yield 'equivalent' strengths of behavioral effects?


----------



## vecktor

equivalent strengths, as the methcathinone dose is usually larger.

there are a number of Russian papers which I cannot access, dealing with the pathology of long term methcathinone use. however when looking at any analysis of illicit methcathinone damage one must bear in mind that a lot of methcathinone contains significant  amounts of manganese due to poor synthesis, which is neurotoxic.  fortunately this contaminant is probably not an issue with the 4-methylmethcathinone as this is made a different way.


----------



## pofacedhoe

Artificial Emotion said:


> Maybe they're related but I don't think they're the same thing. Impulsivity is a result of one's inability to control actions or urges, whereas anxiety is basically fear. For example, if you're anxious about money problems, you're fearing the worst case scenario - that you will become bankrupt and destitute for example.



the impulsive urges come just after the sensation of fear and seem to be triggered by them i.e. i think i'm going bankrupt, then fear , then urge to gamble (which accutally will make me bankrupt). in this way the anxiety triggers the impulse. they seem so closely linked that distinguishing them is very difficult (in terms of feelings within yourself). in this way fear causes the behaviour (with the negative points) that leads to the situation one was afraid of...

the circle of fear

this friend also has what i would guess is bipolar (dare not mention her sanity to her). she said that after using mephedrone her ability to control her temper was much less.

i think the biggest problem with mephedrone is that when it wears off you feel great but it becomes ridiculously easy to get in a rage about nothing


----------



## immad

vecktor said:


> Neurotoxic and pharmacologic studies on enantiomers of the N-methylated analog of cathinone (methcathinone): a new drug of abuse
> 
> http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/279/2/1043
> 
> 
> http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/18/20/8417
> 
> Reduced Striatal Dopamine Transporter Density in Abstinent Methamphetamine and Methcathinone Users: Evidence from Positron Emission Tomography Studies with [11C]WIN-35,428
> 
> 
> *^ possibly the above study is flawed because of the manganese present in illicit methcathinone*
> 
> but I would say methcathinone is probably as bad as methamphetamine.


How'ld this be for ethcathinone? Is KNmO4 also used to oxidate the etyl version of ephedrine or is a different synth usually used?


----------



## vecktor

immad said:


> How'ld this be for ethcathinone? Is KNmO4 also used to oxidate the etyl version of ephedrine or is a different synth usually used?



it is unlikely that KMnO4 is used in ethcathinone synthesis


----------



## PetersKeys

vecktor said:


> the risk calculation is really easy.
> 
> *what are the downside risks*? --- we don't know
> 
> *what are the worst possible downside risks*, and of course we don't know if these are indeed the worst possible risks? --- death, heart valve fibrosis, brain damage, organ damage, clotting problems, death
> 
> *what is the upside?*  getting somewhat high.
> 
> do you feel lucky???????
> 
> this rat will pass thankyou.



I agree. stick with meth or coke if you want a stim high. or modafinil if you wanna go the lesser route. clotting, valve fibrosis dosen't sound to great for a high thats probably not even worth it.


----------



## kroozer_*

Mephedrone is not fully tested with the population yet. Sorry to hear your loss. Mabey people will now take a second thought about ingesting something that they have little experience with. Again, sorry for your loss. Hopefully it will open an eye or two as far as harm reduction goes. 

I lost a friend due to a morphine overdose. PM me if you feel like it. Nothing worse than losing a good friend because of drugs


----------



## Captain.Heroin

pofacedhoe said:


> if you have another explaination for this then spit it as the maoi one seems to make sense to me given this weird tendency



It's called reverse tolerance.  With some drugs, like DXM, you won't need as much the next day.


----------



## pofacedhoe

Captain.Heroin said:


> It's called reverse tolerance.  With some drugs, like DXM, you won't need as much the next day.



interesting, do you think this drug may have an effect upon the glutamate system at all? one of my friends who was addicted to ketamine for a couple of years said it reminded her of k, i had also though this...


----------



## ebola?

In my experience, a single oral dose of mephedrone of 200 mg has one fuck of an adrenal push.  I'm staying the hell away henceforth.

ebola


----------



## shoolameet

so i finally got to try this stuff, i did 1 250mg oral dose and it didnt feel toxic at all, but i can see why it would feel that way at higher doses.
the fact that it was over so quick made it hard to think of as toxic i guess.


----------



## vecktor

shoolameet said:


> so i finally got to try this stuff, i did 1 250mg oral dose and it didnt feel toxic at all, but i can see why it would feel that way at higher doses.
> the fact that it was over so quick made it hard to think of as toxic i guess.



well thats alright then, just so long as it didn't _feel_ toxic to you, then that is evidence that it isn't toxic 8)

please restrict yourself to posting advanced stuff in advanced drug discussion


post trip reports in......trip reports.


----------



## pofacedhoe

shoolameet said:


> so i finally got to try this stuff, i did 1 250mg oral dose and it didnt feel toxic at all, but i can see why it would feel that way at higher doses.
> the fact that it was over so quick made it hard to think of as toxic i guess.



it might feel safe (because it may numb you to your sensations-partly due to something that lowers its safety) but people have experienced some rather unussual and sometimes very scary side effects. 

in particular avoid mixing this drug with cannabis or any of the jwh series. i have found that side effects increase dramatically when cannabis is combined with mephedrone.


----------



## shoolameet

vecktor said:


> well thats alright then, just so long as it didn't _feel_ toxic to you, then that is evidence that it isn't toxic 8)
> 
> please restrict yourself to posting advanced stuff in advanced drug discussion
> 
> 
> post trip reports in......trip reports.




I didn't say that just because it didn't feel toxic doesn't mean it isn't so please don't comment on what I wrote unless you read it properly.
I was just confirming that this drug is can be much more fun when used in moderation and low doses.

also, does anyone have any idea what mephedrone's effect is on seizure threshold?
(i don't have seizures,  i am just curious.)


----------



## pofacedhoe

shoolameet said:


> I didn't say that just because it didn't feel toxic doesn't mean it isn't so please don't comment on what I wrote unless you read it properly.
> I was just confirming that this drug is can be much more fun when used in moderation and low doses.
> 
> also, does anyone have any idea what mephedrone's effect is on seizure threshold?
> (i don't have seizures,  i am just curious.)



i see what your saying, you meant it would be easy for people to assume it was not that dangerous which is the way many people have misunderstood this drug.

due to classical conditioning people look for a quick effect after an event to determine if it causes it. if the effect is delayed they may not be able to associate the effect with the cause.


----------



## shoolameet

^ exactly... people are always saying how in EADD people talk about how they go crazy with this shit and then end up hating it really quickly.
using in moderation is the best way to enjoy this drug and not end up hating how it makes you feel.


----------



## pofacedhoe

shoolameet said:


> ^ exactly... people are always saying how in EADD people talk about how they go crazy with this shit and then end up hating it really quickly.
> using in moderation is the best way to enjoy this drug and not end up hating how it makes you feel.



people need to realise that this drug is on a par with cocaine in terms of desire to redose.


----------



## Z Y G G Y

I have a suggestion as to the reason sometimes these chemicals cause serious side effects and sometimes they don't in the same person.

There has been a lot of talk about these chemicals being MAOI. I know that people who take MAOI antidepressants have to be on a strict diet otherwise they can have serious, sometimes death threatening side effects. Can this account for some of the side effects? Maybe the same person ate different things the first time and didn't get sick and then ate stuff that has a negative effects on these chemicals. 

Just an idea that came to mind. I'd appreciate it if someone with more knowledge can tell me if it's complete BS or if there is some possible truth in it.


----------



## Z Y G G Y

Hammilton said:


> fMRI and PET scans show changes in the brain after various drug use, but tests of functioning show minor alterations in memory, cognition, intellect, etc.



Recently, there has been some scientific literature claiming that most generalizations made using fMRI and PET scan have been pretty incorrect. This was about stuff like happiness and anger. So who knows how much more skewed drug damage analysis might be that simple psychological studies. I just read about this a few days ago. Brand new research. Don't have access to the articles at this time but if u r at a school u can get them for free.


----------



## Artificial Emotion

I've been put off jumping to conclusions based on research using brain scans because of some research I heard about years ago on MDMA. I think in one study it was completely misleading - they told people areas of lower blood flow were 'holes' in the brain, which is totally incorrect I seem to recall - and in another study they stated the research was into the effects of MDMA when it was in fact methamphetamine that was the drug being tested.


----------



## pofacedhoe

Artificial Emotion said:


> I've been put off jumping to conclusions based on research using brain scans because of some research I heard about years ago on MDMA. I think in one study it was completely misleading - they told people areas of lower blood flow were 'holes' in the brain, which is totally incorrect I seem to recall - and in another study they stated the research was into the effects of MDMA when it was in fact methamphetamine that was the drug being tested.



showing an area of the brain as glowing because the blood supply has increased will be the result of increased need for sugar, and other nutrients, BUT this is so vague as the brain is a series of feedback loops of excitation that go from lower areas through the cortex. this means that separate networks using the same area can be beside each other. this may show similarity between scans within one person but bloodflow is just not meaningfull enough to be used between two different brains. to many presumptions and not enough fact. its simply popular because its unintrusive and therefore not so great for damage that may appear in a small scale spread out. also why would neuron damage result in more or less blood flow? 

what about ginseng?


----------



## Bob Loblaw

ebola? said:


> In my experience, a single oral dose of mephedrone of 200 mg has one fuck of an adrenal push.  I'm staying the hell away henceforth.
> 
> ebola



FWIW, Shambles has repeatedly made comments along the lines of 'any oral dose under 250mg for him is too stimulating and unpleasant' perhaps, if you wish, try 250mg or a tad more to see if the effects are the same?



I've read most of this thread, and I've gone on some binges before without noticing and blue knees, elbows, what have you, just an increased heart rate, slight trouble catching my breath/breathing normally.  I assume this means my prime health concern would be along the lines of cardiotoxicity rather than vasoconstriction?


----------



## ebola?

> FWIW, Shambles has repeatedly made comments along the lines of 'any oral dose under 250mg for him is too stimulating and unpleasant' perhaps, if you wish, try 250mg or a tad more to see if the effects are the same?



Mmmm...my intuition (guess, lol) is that higher doses present effects that obscure any uncomfortable feelings.  I've found that MDMA, for example, can turn physical pain into pleasure.  So the negative cardio-vascular effects are likely still there w/ more.



> I've read most of this thread, and I've gone on some binges before without noticing and blue knees, elbows, what have you, just an increased heart rate, slight trouble catching my breath/breathing normally. I assume this means my prime health concern would be along the lines of cardiotoxicity rather than vasoconstriction?



Given that we don't know what causes these effects to vary in prominence, who's to say?

ebola


----------



## deckmunki

Artificial Emotion said:


> My friend died from taking what may have been a recreational dose of mephedrone or bk-mdma last week and his body was found on the wednesday. Sorry, I don't want to talk about it - I thought I'd just contribute my two cents. I was thinking of suing the company that made it but that's just me wanting someone to blame, which is wrong.



Hi Artificial Emotion, I was going to PM you but I can't for another 40 posts, but I figured this might be worth putting out in the open for you.

I'm so sorry to interrupt you in your time of grief, but I'm going through a bad time with meph at the moment and am more than happy to talk about any shit you like if it might help.

I live a couple of miles from Sevenoaks too and went to school with a lot of people who live around here (years ago though - I'm 25-plus-a-bit).

Anyway, I don't know what to say, but if you want to talk - even if it's just to tell me to fuck off - please do.

Everyone else - apologies if this is massively inappropriate - please delete if you think it shouldn't be here 

Dm


----------



## pofacedhoe

ebola? said:


> Mmmm...my intuition (guess, lol) is that higher doses present effects that obscure any uncomfortable feelings.  I've found that MDMA, for example, can turn physical pain into pleasure.  So the negative cardio-vascular effects are likely still there w/ more.
> 
> 
> 
> Given that we don't know what causes these effects to vary in prominence, who's to say?
> 
> ebola



i've found this drug to have painkilling effects. for instance the pain of the burn from a line is gone once the rush hits. also i have found that if i pinch my skin hard it feels like touch but no pain. 

noradrenaline has painkilling effects hence its importance in flight or fight danger. if you couldnt ignore a wound when in great danger you had less chance of escaping. tramadol has effects on this neurotransmitter.

adrenaline makes you feel ok when your damaged


----------



## Crankinit

Ok, sorry if I've missed this, but I read through most of this thread and you guys seem to mainly be discussing the cardiotoxicity and vascular constriction.

How do you guys feel about any potential neurotoxicity? It has a similar subject effect to amphetamines and MDMA, and since (from memory) methcathinone has a similar neurotoxicity to methamphetamine, would it be reasonable to assume that 4mmc has a similar neurotoxicity to MDMA or amphetamines?

If so, do you feel that similar preventative measures to those taken with MDMA (primarily, supplementing with antioxidants and neuroprotective chemicals) would potentially provide some measure of abation?

Likewise, are there any preventative measures that can be taken towards the vascular constriction and cardiotoxicity, other than the usual take it easy/practice moderation?


----------



## ebola?

_Off-topic:_



> noradrenaline has painkilling effects hence its importance in flight or fight danger. if you couldnt ignore a wound when in great danger you had less chance of escaping. tramadol has effects on this neurotransmitter.
> 
> adrenaline makes you feel ok when your damaged



Not only that, but I think that 5ht efflux adds something special to the equation.  I recall my second time rolling, thinking, "I have a mild headache, but it feels awesome!!!"  This stands qualitatively distinct from typical stimulant-analgesia.


----------



## pofacedhoe

ebola? said:


> _Off-topic:_
> 
> 
> 
> Not only that, but I think that 5ht efflux adds something special to the equation.  I recall my second time rolling, thinking, "I have a mild headache, but it feels awesome!!!"  This stands qualitatively distinct from typical stimulant-analgesia.



definitely, 

i used to be on citalopram (SSRI) and noticed that physical pain (like cutting skin with a knife or wacking your leg) just didn't affect me the same way. i often thought it would make a good painkiller.

as for the poster above who metioned neurotoxicity, yes its a danger but sudden death as a result of heart failure seems like a more worrying prospect. methamphetamine is neurotoxic but if i was addicted to it the damage to my heart would concern me more. you can live with less neurons but you cant live with a failed heart.

proving neurotoxicity can be difficult (as seen with research on mdma) but its worth looking into


----------



## Crankinit

> as for the poster above who metioned neurotoxicity, yes its a danger but sudden death as a result of heart failure seems like a more worrying prospect. methamphetamine is neurotoxic but if i was addicted to it the damage to my heart would concern me more. you can live with less neurons but you cant live with a failed heart.



The flip side of that being that enough people have taken this stuff that heart failure seems like a very small possibility if used moderately, whereas if it's neurotoxic then even what seems like moderate use could possibly have an impact on your future quality of life.

If this drug was causing people to drop dead left right and centre, we'd know. If it was just killing their braincells but not the rest of them, we wouldn't necessarily be aware. As you said, look at the MDMA example.

It's all very well to say you can survive with less neurons, but after a few years of meth and MDMA abuse I came to realise I'm actually quite attached to mine and would rather not lose any more of them 

I understand where you're coming from though.


----------



## pofacedhoe

Crankinit said:


> The flip side of that being that enough people have taken this stuff that heart failure seems like a very small possibility if used moderately, whereas if it's neurotoxic then even what seems like moderate use could possibly have an impact on your future quality of life.
> 
> If this drug was causing people to drop dead left right and centre, we'd know. If it was just killing their braincells but not the rest of them, we wouldn't necessarily be aware. As you said, look at the MDMA example.
> 
> It's all very well to say you can survive with less neurons, but after a few years of meth and MDMA abuse I came to realise I'm actually quite attached to mine and would rather not lose any more of them
> 
> I understand where you're coming from though.



fair do's, i have been using this drug often every couple of weeks for roughly 9 months now. personally i know its silly to be doing this but i used MDMA as often before but not currently. with mephedrone their doesn't seem to be the same after issues with mdma (temper, depression, etc.) after long periods of time using it i notice no decrease in my day to day quality of life. with mdma after using it regularly the mood for months on end could be significantly lower.

mdma seems a far harsher and more potent chemical when it comes to affecting neurons (specifically serotonin neurons). what draws me back to meph is the relaxed and mellow high followed by a short bearable crash. having done amphetamines for years and mdma as well, i would say they have a very strong neuronal effect, while meph is milder (in a similar way to coke and ritalin).


----------



## Mitchy=)

Cheers for that post vecktor, apreciate it, that actualy cleared a whole lot up.
And yeah i doubt we will get more information until more studies are done, but it believe its safe to say that you shouldnt be taking more than 400mg a weekend (in my personal experience after some heart issues arose)


----------



## shoolameet

I keep seeing people say don't take more than "this much" a week or a weekend. I think this should be treated like MDMA - 4-6 weeks between uses at least (although I know realistically many people don't adhere to that.) I am just saying, you'll enjoy it more and probably live longer if you space it out more.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

If I've been on a pretty strong binge (~6g in a week, followed by a few more grams [2-3] a few days later), and I noticed slight chest pain once before, then after my last dose, and it's still present almost 24 hours later, is this something to be concerned about?  Or will it go away without mandating medical attention?


----------



## Buddy122

^any better / any worse?  Chest pain is nothing to fuck around with, if it's not dissipating i would definitely recomend seeking medical attention.


----------



## deckmunki

Bob Loblaw said:


> If I've been on a pretty strong binge (~6g in a week, followed by a few more grams [2-3] a few days later), and I noticed slight chest pain once before, then after my last dose, and it's still present almost 24 hours later, is this something to be concerned about?  Or will it go away without mandating medical attention?



Anyone in any position of responsibility for a person's health would tell them to immediately present themselves to ER/A&E with the symptoms you've described. As the op above says; chest pains are ignored at your peril - that's not to say "panic", but it's also not saying "if you can survive 24 hours, you'll probably be ok to ignore it" - you're crazy if you do that.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

It's substantially subsided to the point of being unnoticeable/absent unless I inhale deeply or something similar.


----------



## Buddy122

I think you'll be ok, after a 4 day meph binge on about 2grams (the first times i had ever tried it) i vaguely remember a little chest tightness for the rest of the night on day 4, not any pain really though.  I'm fine now, probably has to do with it constricting your blood flow to your heart for so long.

Put the meph down and back away slowly lol.

But if you still feel the slightest concern for your health and safety then i would still suggest seeking out medical attention just to be safe.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

Haha alright. I'm taking a break for a bit (and I'm not just saying that, I literally won't have access to any), so that should clear things up a bit .


----------



## Buddy122

^True, i know what you mean...tbh i probably would've kept binging on it if i hadn't have run out after that four days.


----------



## jac1999

I  never take much (500 mg max over 10 hours) but always seem to get a very sore throat and a shit load of really annoying mouth ulcers. Anyone have the same and tips as to how to avoid this???


----------



## vortex30

Watch out for the jaw clenching and try to consciously stop it. That's what I've done and found that my mouth just feels 'dry' and a bit irritated, but not ulcered to fuck like it used to get. I think its a mixture of dry mouth and constant gurning that causes them to be really bad sometimes.


----------



## pofacedhoe

Bob Loblaw said:


> Haha alright. I'm taking a break for a bit (and I'm not just saying that, I literally won't have access to any), so that should clear things up a bit .



i got chest pains too but i havent been at it for weeks and they're gone. leave the meph alone and go to a doctors anyway to ask for advice. worrying will cause greater chest pain (a cokehead friend of mine had anxiety attacks and nothing wrong with his heart{ecg} but was convinced he was going to die). chest pain and anxiety are strongly linked. dont smoke cannabis when under the influence of meph, it vastly enhanced the incidence of chest problems in myself at every meph dosage level as did excessive sugar intake (haribo/chocolate).

try keeping you're blood healthy with raw garlic (swallow very small chopped bits with water) and fish oils(use moderately), drinking water and avoiding sugar in large amounts (makes blood sticky in consistency). these can thin the blood and if the blood is less thick it will be easier to pump around the body and put less strain on the heart. try to use olive oil in your diet. get a strong b vitamin complex (one called B-complex "50" is very good).  and leave the meph for at least a month or two, if not as long as you possibly can.

i have used in a similar pattern to you and the large dose binges need recovery and time off using at the very least (they are a sign of addiction and high tolerance). tackle the problem with affirmative action. good luck!


----------



## pofacedhoe

vortex30 said:


> Watch out for the jaw clenching and try to consciously stop it. That's what I've done and found that my mouth just feels 'dry' and a bit irritated, but not ulcered to fuck like it used to get. I think its a mixture of dry mouth and constant gurning that causes them to be really bad sometimes.



avoid dry mouth and feed yourself in one easy step by drinking milk!

i dont get ulcers this way or any of the weird acidic burned/chewed to bits mouth issues that were so common among my days of mdma and before that speed. milk solves a number of problems as long as you can digest it...


----------



## alt 14

I just got off a pretty large binge (750mg 2 nights ago followed by about 1.3 grams total yesterday, all of it snorted) and I woke up with bumps in the back of my throat... I've experienced this before but never this bad. I have a feeling it could be from the drainage. Does anyone know what this is? I plan on doing 500mg next week (which will be hard to talk me out of but if it's THAT bad I guess I could...) and then taking at least a 6 week break after that.


Also last night I felt mild chest discomfort/pain. FWIW I've decided to completely change the way I use this stuff. Once a month, maybe twice at the most, always dosing orally with no more than a single redose. I never really took the warnings for this stuff very seriously, but I'm really starting to think this is not a chem to abuse the piss out of. Be safe guys...



P.S. The small pimple/boil-like bumps have almost completely gone away in the 2.5 hours I've been awake. I ate some fruit, a sandwich, took a multi-vitamin, and had 2 glasses of milk. I think they will have completely subsided in a couple more hours. Now I have the suspicion it was because I had a weakened immune system and slept with my mouth open... But yeah, they're getting better really fast so I'm not as concerned as I was before.


----------



## shoolameet

Artificial Emotion said:


> Wow. According to my psychiatrist I actually have a number of traits of OCD (but not quite the full blown disorder)! How fascinating! I do do this when not under the influence and do it uncontrollably when I'm nervous. I do it so often it's second nature and quite often am not actually aware that I'm doing it. The nail polish idea is pretty cool.
> 
> I read somewhere that people who bite their nails live considerably shorter life spans and can suffer from cognitive defecits through ingesting toxins present under dirty fingernails.
> 
> After my friend's death I have been put off ingesting psychoactive drugs that do not have a long history of use by man, where the long-term side effects are unknown. Although mephedrone is probably not that harmful t's just too risky IMO.



So I know this is a little off topic, but an episode of Obsessed was on A&E tonight about a girl with Trichotillomania so I thought of this thread lol.
If you have any further interest on the subject you should check out the book "More, Now, Again" by Elizabeth Wurtzel (who also wrote "Prozac Nation.")
The book is about her addiction to snorting Ritalin and how it lead to her development of Trichotillomania. She goes into some graphic detail at points, but it's an awesome book.


----------



## alt 14

I ended up doing probably 700mg more today in 3 snorted doses... I didn't even really have that much to do. I decided to open a bindle I had saved for a friend and taking 50-100mg out and drew a line through the ".6" written on the pack and wrote "~.5  Sorry, heh." Anyway, I somehow came to the conclusion I could just do his drugs since I have more on the way (won't have it for about a week). I think I'm beginning to deal with addiction from this stuff, even if only psychologically. I suspect my best friend may be in my boat seeing as how he did a lot more (6 grams in 7 days, then like another 1/8th a few days after at his worst binge, no top of minimal amounts of food, water, and sleep), but I personally believe addiction is more about attitude and how you use, not just dose + frequency. I think a lot of the problems with mephedrone would be solved if it wasn't so fucking cheap (it's not price discussion, just a subjective observation/fact). In my/our case anyway...


Tips to anyone having lots of this stuff sitting around - DON'T! But seriously, I would do what you need to do with the packaging ahead of time (cmon, no one person needs 25+g) and DO NOT touch a single packet when you start to fiend. Ever. For some reason opening a bindle for a small bump seems innocent when you're on (or coming off I guess) this stuff, at least to me, but this is the 2nd or 3rd time when a "tiny bump" resulted in the whole bag disappearing. I'm done with this shit for a long time. Also, plan out your mephedrone uses ahead of time like you would with mdma. Spur-of-the-moment dosing breeds bad habits.


Tread lightly on this one... I'm sure it has potential to be an amazing, moderately-safe drug if used correctly, but using it responsibly can be the hard part sometimes.


----------



## Buddy122

^good post.  I agree, this spontaneous use of meph causes one to think it's OK to keep abusing the amounts at the frequency that he or she is doing so....and it's not.

Keep the psychological dependency at bay by being smarter about this drug, especially considering how little is known about it.


----------



## pofacedhoe

shoolameet said:


> So I know this is a little off topic, but an episode of Obsessed was on A&E tonight about a girl with Trichotillomania so I thought of this thread lol.
> If you have any further interest on the subject you should check out the book "More, Now, Again" by Elizabeth Wurtzel (who also wrote "Prozac Nation.")
> The book is about her addiction to snorting Ritalin and how it lead to her development of Trichotillomania. She goes into some graphic detail at points, but it's an awesome book.



god i love ritalin, i could snort line of ritalin forever, it was as additive as meph easily
in fact worse because i genuinely could not stop until i ran out which in some cases was weeks


----------



## pofacedhoe

alt 14 said:


> I plan on doing 500mg next week (which will be hard to talk me out of but if it's THAT bad I guess I could...) and then taking at least a 6 week break after that.
> 
> 
> P.S. The small pimple/boil-like bumps have almost completely gone away in the 2.5 hours I've been awake. I ate some fruit, a sandwich, took a multi-vitamin, and had 2 glasses of milk. I think they will have completely subsided in a couple more hours. Now I have the suspicion it was because I had a weakened immune system and slept with my mouth open... But yeah, they're getting better really fast so I'm not as concerned as I was before.



yes milk is a great counterbalance when snorting this drug, also i notice you dont mind stopping as long as its next week.

lemmy was quoted as say "an addict is someone who can stop anytime as long as its next tuesday" lol


----------



## shoolameet

pofacedhoe said:


> god i love ritalin, i could snort line of ritalin forever, it was as additive as meph easily
> in fact worse because i genuinely could not stop until i ran out which in some cases was weeks



blech, ritalin. stick to meph, even if is more toxic. at least meph has a nice euphoria


----------



## Virtuoso

Coolio said:


> I agree. If there's to be any easily diagnosed neurotoxicity from recreational use, we'd see obvious neurological problems with the heaviest bingers out there right now, not some outliers.



I'm a bit late to this conversation, obviously, but with the recent increase in meph availability (I was offered it at a party, for Christs sake), I feel it is necessary to point out that while the drug certainly *can *have quite terrible negative effects, for the majority of users it will not have any appreciable long term consequences.  Granted, you don't know if you are going to be in that group who is highly sensitive to the drug, and while I have used it (and never gotten above 400mg in one session of usage) without any negative consequences, it seems important to note that this drug doesn't seem any worse than meth.

Take that for what its worth, obviously.  Like all drugs -

Moderate usage + Self control

Will more than likely lead to a night with few consequences.  Not saying that mephedrone is a wonder drug thats perfect in every way, as it obviously has some very real potential consequences, it seems that the issues that have arisen have come from the fact that, since it isn't explicitly scheduled, people don't take it as seriously  or treat it with as much respect as a "real" drug like cocaine.  If that hurdle were successfully jumped, I doubt we would see hardly any of the issues we have seen in the past with this drug.


----------



## Buddy122

This drug is definitely a 'drug of opportunity' imo.  When I dont have any, i'm not craving it.  But when I do, i want it constantly.  I apparantly have a little more will power than i thought because i've managed to go two nights so far without dosing while having some available...which is saying a lot from the first time i got a hold of meph.


----------



## fastandbulbous

> I feel it is necessary to point out that while the drug certainly can have quite terrible negative effects, for the majority of users it will not have any appreciable long term consequences.




Based on? Why do you think pharmaceutical firms spend millions doing long term animal studies with new drugs? It's because there is no other way of determining whether or not something will have long consequences - it took a bloody long time to find the long term negative health consequences of fenfluramine (2-trifluoromethyl-N-ethylamphetamine)


----------



## dread

> fenfluramine (*3*-trifluoromethyl-N-ethylamphetamine)



fixd


----------



## 65daysofstatic

I think the relatively low comedown indicates that it won't be too neurotoxic. That said, it could easily be linked to some sort of serious illness later down the line. 

If mephedrone is found to be very toxic or dangerous, I'm completely fucked. 

For over a year I've abused the shit out of it. At one point I did something like 20 grams in little over a week.

If I buy in bulk, there's no stopping me on the stuff. Now I keep it to weekends. I'll keep a few g's to myself and sell the rest. Even flushing it down the toilet is better than hoovering it all up my nose


----------



## dread

> I think the relatively low comedown indicates that it won't be too neurotoxic.



That is a totally unfounded assumption.


----------



## 65daysofstatic

dread said:


> That is a totally unfounded assumption.


Did I claim anything to the contrary? I simply stated my thoughts on the subject.


----------



## stardust.hero

3g in one night is apparently NOT a lethal dose...


----------



## 65daysofstatic

stardust.hero said:


> 3g in one night is apparently NOT a lethal dose...


Neither is 10...


----------



## Mugz

^proven by yourself i assume   its not a sensible dose though is it mate


----------



## ThCatBob

stardust.hero said:


> 3g in one night is apparently NOT a lethal dose...



I still think thats crazy that you did that much, but know exactly how it happend.


----------



## stardust.hero

65daysofstatic said:


> Neither is 10...



 You did 10 in one night?


----------



## ebola?

sixty-five days of static said:
			
		

> Did I claim anything to the contrary? I simply stated my thoughts on the subject.



And Dread stated his thoughts on your thoughts. 

ebola


----------



## vecktor

65daysofstatic said:


> Neither is 10...



this is moronic. 
10g is most certainly could be a lethal dose under certain circumstances.

when discussing toxicity ingeneral the concept of LD 50 is used. this is the dose that kills 50% of the test subjects, so for 50% of the test subjects the LD50 dose is not a lethal dose. 

you morons need to read up on the long term adverse effects of low dose ephedrine given that you are exposing yourselves to the pharmacologically smilar paramethylephedrine metabolite. Ephedrine use causes vasocostriction of the vessels that supply blood to the heart, pathalogical examination of ephedrine users showed evidence of damage caused by lack of oxygen to the heart muscle,  some users of 4MMC are reporting chest pains which sound a lot like angina, where the heart is not getting enough blood. even if there is no immediate serious effects this is a dangerous thing, the damage may accumulate.

Hence moderation is the key, avoiding the kind of stupid doses which lead to heavy exposures to the vasoconstrictive metabolites. I personally wouldn't touch 4-MMC with a shitty stick.

If any one wants to take the bet, I bet that scientific examination will show

1, 4-MMC is neurotoxic to neurons like methcathinone 

2, 4-MMC is cardiotoxic due to vasoconstriction of the vessels supplying the heart muscle

3 Serious detectable pathalogical changes in heart muscle will be seen in heavy users.

some people are being really dumb with hothey use this untested drug, it is not big or clever or impressive to consume 10g it is plain stupid. it's not suprising because the typical profile of the heavy 4-MMC user posting here is, young, male and ill educated.

please be smart with dosingand consumption of this drug.


----------



## dread

> I personally wouldn't touch 4-MMC with a shitty stick.



I second that

This sounds like a really shitty drug. Besides I hate vasoconstriction.


----------



## 65daysofstatic

vecktor said:


> this is moronic.
> 10g is most certainly could be a lethal dose under certain circumstances.
> 
> when discussing toxicity ingeneral the concept of LD 50 is used. this is the dose that kills 50% of the test subjects, so for 50% of the test subjects the LD50 dose is not a lethal dose.
> 
> you morons need to read up on the long term adverse effects of low dose ephedrine given that you are exposing yourselves to the pharmacologically smilar paramethylephedrine metabolite. Ephedrine use causes vasocostriction of the vessels that supply blood to the heart, pathalogical examination of ephedrine users showed evidence of damage caused by lack of oxygen to the heart muscle,  some users of 4MMC are reporting chest pains which sound a lot like angina, where the heart is not getting enough blood. even if there is no immediate serious effects this is a dangerous thing, the damage may accumulate.
> 
> Hence moderation is the key, avoiding the kind of stupid doses which lead to heavy exposures to the vasoconstrictive metabolites. I personally wouldn't touch 4-MMC with a shitty stick.
> 
> If any one wants to take the bet, I bet that scientific examination will show
> 
> 1, 4-MMC is neurotoxic to neurons like methcathinone
> 
> 2, 4-MMC is cardiotoxic due to vasoconstriction of the vessels supplying the heart muscle
> 
> 3 Serious detectable pathalogical changes in heart muscle will be seen in heavy users.
> 
> some people are being really dumb with hothey use this untested drug, it is not big or clever or impressive to consume 10g it is plain stupid. it's not suprising because the typical profile of the heavy 4-MMC user posting here is, young, male and ill educated.
> 
> please be smart with dosingand consumption of this drug.


I'm not saying it isn't moronic. It's up to me what drugs I do and I have to deal with the consequences. 

I don't make a habit of doing 10 grams in a session. But I've had many heavy all weekend sessions with mates.

Also, I'm not ill educated, quite the reverse. I'm clever but probably not very wise. I know a lot about the chemical I take but still end up abusing them.

Don't worry, I'm not some idiot that snorts lines all night thinking its doing no damage. I know I'll probably be an even bigger depressed wreck in the future, if there is a future.


----------



## pofacedhoe

vecktor said:


> it's not suprising because the typical profile of the heavy 4-MMC user posting here is, young, male and ill educated.



so true! i would advise eating a couple of cloves of raw garlic (chop 'em up small) when using and try to get a couple of omega 3 fish oils. also dont buy more than you intend to do, and avoid sugary products (eat something slow complex carbohydrate wise like porridge). Avoid cannabis or the jwh series


----------



## 65daysofstatic

pofacedhoe said:


> so true! i would advise eating a couple of cloves of raw garlic (chop 'em up small) when using and try to get a couple of omega 3 fish oils. also dont buy more than you intend to do, and avoid sugary products (eat something slow complex carbohydrate wise like porridge). Avoid cannabis or the jwh series


Raw garlic will go down well with the ladies in night clubs 8). Mind you, will probably be drowned out by the reek of sweaty meph, fags and vodka (the staple diet of the young, male, ill educated meph user  )


----------



## pofacedhoe

65daysofstatic said:


> Raw garlic will go down well with the ladies in night clubs 8). Mind you, will probably be drowned out by the reek of sweaty meph, fags and vodka (the staple diet of the young, male, ill educated meph user  )



ha ha

yeah garlic stinks of shit, maybe have it before a meal wayyy before you dose or towards the end after the club. fish oils though shouldn't stink if you get the good ones (there's these ones smell of strawberrym, they're chewable for kids). meph shclong


----------



## shoolameet

So I tried this for the second time the other day (after a 5 day oxy binge) and had a terrible crash. I only took one 250mg oral dose and I when came down I was beyond anxious. I also felt extremely depressed about the fact that I didn't feel good and "up" anymore. When I was completely back to baseline I felt drained and tired, but my thoughts were too trippy to get a good nights sleep, even after taking 1mg klonopin.
I felt all of these symptoms well into the next day, until I used up my last little bit of oxy, which I didn't want to do, but had to because of how bad the anxiety was getting.
Has anyone else had a crash this terrible from such a small dose? Or was this the result of taking meph after an oxy binge?

I feel like this shit has to be a serotonin precursor, because the only time I have felt a crash/drained like this is after taking tan stars.


----------



## kaskelot

shoolameet said:


> So I tried this for the second time the other day (after a 5 day oxy binge) and had a terrible crash. I only took one 250mg oral dose and I when came down I was beyond anxious. I also felt extremely depressed about the fact that I didn't feel good and "up" anymore. When I was completely back to baseline I felt drained and tired, but my thoughts were too trippy to get a good nights sleep, even after taking 1mg klonopin.
> I felt all of these symptoms well into the next day, until I used up my last little bit of oxy, which I didn't want to do, but had to because of how bad the anxiety was getting.
> Has anyone else had a crash this terrible from such a small dose? Or was this the result of taking meph after an oxy binge?
> 
> I feel like this shit has to be a serotonin precursor, because the only time I have felt a crash/drained like this is after taking tan stars.



250 milligrams isn't a small dose.


----------



## pofacedhoe

shoolameet said:


> So I tried this for the second time the other day (after a 5 day oxy binge) and had a terrible crash. I only took one 250mg oral dose and I when came down I was beyond anxious. I also felt extremely depressed about the fact that I didn't feel good and "up" anymore. When I was completely back to baseline I felt drained and tired, but my thoughts were too trippy to get a good nights sleep, even after taking 1mg klonopin.
> I felt all of these symptoms well into the next day, until I used up my last little bit of oxy, which I didn't want to do, but had to because of how bad the anxiety was getting.
> Has anyone else had a crash this terrible from such a small dose? Or was this the result of taking meph after an oxy binge?
> 
> I feel like this shit has to be a serotonin precursor, because the only time I have felt a crash/drained like this is after taking tan stars.



i get much worse comedowns when i take opium with meph so yes the combined comedown is unbearable, 

yes its well kown that having low endorphin levels and low monoamines for instance the crash from doing methamphetamine after a binge on heroin is much worse than either alone. its obvious because the combined high is so much better than the sum of its parts.

this is why i want to stop using mephedrone

250mg is a small dose in relation to how much is generally used i.e its not uncommon for an individual to dose a gram or more in one sitting (when used nasally)

also i find drugs that up serotonin effects seems to leave me unstable when they wear off (ssri's, mdma,mda, methylone) , as do drugs that up endorphin levels (poppy tea, opium, morphine). both these systems seem involved in the regulation of distress...


----------



## Boojum

I figure I may as well share my story with this substance. I *greatly* regret taking it, and in hindsight don't know what the hell I was thinking. I had quit research chemicals for over a year to stick to more tested things I felt safer with, but I guess I really got sucked into the mephedrone bandwagon. I don't blame anyone for using it besides myself, but I will say that I was certainly under the impression this was the wonder drug of the century: no negative effects, a safer alternative to MDMA, everyone loves it, wave of the future, perfectly safe, blah blah blah. Still my own fault for not doing my own research, and getting carried away with it.

Anyways I did probably around four grams over three days (the total extent of my use), I know fucking retarded, people can't beat me up for this mistake more than I already have myself. I even continued using it after I realized I was getting bad effects from it, telling myself that only happened when I used a lot and I could just use one line and be fine (one turn to two fast and two to three etc).

Anyways, what all did happen to me from mephedrone. First of all, the first horrible effect I noticed before I realized anything else was wrong at all was an electrical feeling pain in my foot. Like, I thought my foot must have brushed against an exposed wire or something. I look at my foot and it has an oozing sore on it, looks horrible, right where the pain was. 

Then I notice my hands are flushed and red. My knees are purple. The side of my other foot is dark brown discolored and the veins are engorged. My hands are white as sheets after the redness goes away, but the tips of the fingers from the last joint on up are bright red and will remain this way for around three or four weeks.

I got sores in my mouth and on my tongue that tasted like mephedrone and seemed to break open. My knuckles are discolored, which stands out strangely from my paper white hands (and blood red finger tips). 

Other horrible effects I got were amnesia (snapping to the next day as I am in the process of sniffing a line, forgeting that I had not slept yet and that I had infact most likely been up sniffing lines the entire fucking night). Some heart pains the third day which is the day I flushed the rest of what I had down the toilet. The heart pains went away the same day and did not come back.

So now it has been around five or six weeks since my last dose. My hands are close to normal color, even the tips are not blood red anymore but maybe a wee bit pinker than they used to be. The oozing sore on my foot where I felt the electrical pain has mostly healed, but it seems to have left a pink scar behind , it looks like a perfect circle. The skin is also a bit indented there. 

My knees are normal color usually now, but when I take a shower they get BRIGHT red. I don't know why this is only when I take a shower. Another thing I noticed is immediately after my mephedrone binge I started getting a *lot* of infections. Pink eye in both eyes, two ear infections, throat infection. Thankfully they all seem to have cleared up now and are not coming back, but I was sick and even feverous (low grade) for an entire month, longer than I have ever been sick for before. 

One foot still has discoloration on the side, but it isn't as bad as it was. It went from bright red, to dark brown / bronze (I was soooo worried I was going to get gangrene but now think I am probably not), to a sickely looking off colored bruised flesh color to now what it is which is pretty much a shade or two off the normal color with hints of pink and maybe very light hint of purple. At first glance you can't even see the discoloration now though, it has definitely gotten much better. I do notice occasional sharp pains in my hands and feet now, but they are not too bad and only last a split second.

What I really would like to know is what are the chances that I develop gangrene at this point? (Over a month and a week afer my last dose, with no signs of blackness in anything yet, so I should be probably ok right? When I squeeze my finger tip it goes very very white but the blood comes right back, and I still have feeling through out my body, although perhaps where my foot is discolored it is lacking a tiny bit of feeling I can still feel it pretty fine and when I press it down it goes from white to colored.)

So really people I mean I know I am a fucking retard and I know this shit is totally unresearched and no one really knows, but what the fuck happened to me? Is it likely I did permanent serious damage to myself? Am I probably going to be ok since I have been ok for this long with nothing serious? I have been to the doctor like five or six times since it happened and they seem to think I am mostly ok besides for a nasty infection (that finally cleared up, WOOT). They didn't do any real tests on me, but took blood pressure, looked at my discoloration , etc. They seem to think I am just a fucking hypocondriac with some infections, which is quite possible, I feel like a fucking hypocondriac since I used mephedrone. I examine my body for like the slightest irregularity and as soon as I find one convince myself I have some synthetic mephedrone induced AIDS or some shit. But I am starting to feel a lot better just wanted to add my experience in case it helps anyone else or warns people not to fuck with this nasty drug.

Also want to add I forgot to mention I was VERY light headed after the last day I used mephedrone, but it went away about as fast as the heart pains. But I notice recently I am a bit light headed on occasion and also sometimes need to catch my breath a bit more than I used to maybe.

Also I just want to say to the people who are accusing it of all being in peoples heads, fuck you guys, just because you can binge on mephedrone and do ten grams in a day you are fucking diluting the honest to god truth about this drug in that it does in some people cause real horrible effects. I see so much justification with this drug, like oh I am going to go off about shit I know nothing about because either

1. I use this shit like no other and want to comfort myself by preaching about how safe mephedrone is and backing it up with pseudo-science i pulled out of my ass, confusing the issues but making myself feel better for being a mephedrone junkie

2. You are involved with mephedrone at a level other than end user and don't want to hurt your lucrative market so spread shit about it and want to promote the bandwagon that this is a safe awesome wonder drug that never causes anyone any problems

seriously I mean I can take responsibility for my stupidity and admit I was an idiot, but I can't stand reading through the threads on mephedrone and seeing the same attitude of people discounting the real experiences of others with *nothing* to base it on. 

ok that is all I have to say sorry if I broke any rules or anything or come across as hostile to anyone. As I said before, I take full responsibility for my stupid actions and know I did this to myself. I don't want to see mephedrone banned or anything because people should have a choice what they use, but damn I wish this shit didn't have a choir of marketers singing its praises and discounting negative experiences of people, because it IS at least helping contribute to people making stupid choices. Although people can only blame themselves.

edit: One more thing to note is although I used about 4 grams over three days, I was doing very small lines. I wasn't weighing them out, but they were about as big as I make a line of ketamine. I would *guess* I was doing about 50 MG lines once every half hour or so for about 12 hours a day. Also worth noting is I got NO negative effects at all until about hour 11 or 12 of the first day. And what I feel most stupid for is that I kept using after this point =(


----------



## cegli

I'm sorry that happened to you man, sounds pretty nasty.  I also laugh at the mephedrone junkies trying to make themselves feel better in this thread.  All of the chemists who've looked at the SAR and the personal reports have a pretty good fact based argument that this is probably pretty bad for you, even if you don't have awful side effects straight away.  I haven't seen this many bad effects in people from an RC in a long long time (maybe ever?).

I'm not a doctor, but it sounds like you're going to be okay now.  I've seen pictures of gangrene from shooting opiates into an artery, and from Bromo-DragonFly, and the extremities blackened within a couple of days, so I'd say you're good there.  The swelling and numbness and heart pain sounds like vasoconstriction.  That's good, because you should be good now that you've stopped and haven't lost any limbs .

According to this: http://www.thebody.com/content/art25445.html methamphetamine (and probably methcathinone) suppresses the immune system.  Mephedrone is pretty close to meth, and I think a lot of drugs do this, so that's probably why you got sick.  I'm sure someone with more pharmacology knowledge than me will comment soon.  Don't stress about it though, sounds like you're getting better and will probably get out of this with only a harsh warning from your body.

Best of luck in recovery!


----------



## Buddy122

Does anyone think that taking some tylenol before downing some drone would help to diminish some of its vasoconstrictive properties?  Or would this just be a horrible idea?


----------



## kaskelot

Buddy122 said:


> Does anyone think that taking some tylenol before downing some drone would help to diminish some of its vasoconstrictive properties?  Or would this just be a horrible idea?



Why would Tylenol have effect on vasoconstriction?


----------



## Buddy122

Idk, that's kinda what I was asking.


----------



## bpayne

65daysofstatic said:


> Raw garlic will go down well with the ladies in night clubs 8). Mind you, will probably be drowned out by the reek of sweaty meph, fags and vodka (the staple diet of the young, male, ill educated meph user  )[
> 
> meph users have a diet of faggots? why they gotta be homos?


----------



## stom10

bpayne said:


> 65daysofstatic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw garlic will go down well with the ladies in night clubs 8). Mind you, will probably be drowned out by the reek of sweaty meph, fags and vodka (the staple diet of the young, male, ill educated meph user  )[
> 
> 
> 
> meph users have a diet of faggots? why they gotta be homos?
Click to expand...


Fags meaning cigarettes.


----------



## Genasirus

Cheers to all who posted validated, considered opinion in this thread.  An associate offered me an "awesome new designer thing, like mdma but super clean with no comedown; cokestacy".

Having spent 18-23ish in the party scene and being away from it for 3+ years, Bluelight was the first place I headed and having previously avoided RC like the plague, vasoconstriction aint my bag.  

Vecktor:  Your contributions stand out greatly, thank you.


----------



## pofacedhoe

bpayne said:


> 65daysofstatic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw garlic will go down well with the ladies in night clubs 8). Mind you, will probably be drowned out by the reek of sweaty meph, fags and vodka (the staple diet of the young, male, ill educated meph user  )[
> 
> meph users have a diet of faggots? why they gotta be homos?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol! when i use meph i would like a diet of faggots, mmm tasty men
Click to expand...


----------



## fastandbulbous

> According to this: http://www.thebody.com/content/art25445.html methamphetamine (and probably methcathinone) suppresses the immune system. Mephedrone is pretty close to meth, and I think a lot of drugs do this, so that's probably why you got sick. I'm sure someone with more pharmacology knowledge than me will comment soon. Don't stress about it though, sounds like you're getting better and will probably get out of this with only a harsh warning from your body.



Off  the top of my head, I'd reckon that the immunosuppressing activity of various stimulants has something to do with the action of corticosteroids (cortisol being the natural version released by the body), which are one of the main culprits for the effects of stress on the body
(gastric ulcers, reflux oesophogitis, more likely to develop infections etc).


One thing that does stand out like a sore thumb in this thread though is the lengths some users (read: people with a psychological dependance) are prepared to go to to justify that mephedrone isn't that dangerous a drug, when the accumulating evidence is that it's probably one of the nastiest drugs of abuse doing the rounds at the minute. Sorry to use this cliched saying, but denial isn't just a river in Africa...


Finally...



			
				vecktor said:
			
		

> I personally wouldn't touch this stuff with fastandbulbous's metaphorical shitty stick



Why settle for a metaphorical shitty stick when you can be the owner of the real thing, lovingly crafted by fastandbulbous and now available for orders for Xmas 2009. Guarenteed to keep all dodgy drugs, mephedrone included, at arms length!

   

First 50 orders also come with a fetching "meph=death" lapel badge


----------



## Boojum

hey FnB or Vecktor I would appreciate it if you guys could take a guess at what people who use meph have to look forward to as far as negative effects in the future. Especailly those who got the purple knees and such. Do you think it could have caused dermatomyositis ? It seems to closely match many of the negative effects. Do you think that after getting the pruple knees and such and being for the most part ok for a month and a half that I still have to worry about any serious future consequences after using 4 grams over three days? Much appreciation for a reply =).

it is funny you mention corticosteroids, as those are used in the treatment of dermatomyotisis, which happens to cause purple knees that come and go and a variety of other symptoms I have had since my experience with mepheedrone. I am a bit worried mephedrone can be added to the already fairly extensive list of drugs that can trigger this autoimmune order. I might get a blood test for it, if I have it I will let yall know. Sure hope I don't, even though from my research with modern medicine people who get it have an 80% chance of living 5 years and if they make it five years a high chance of it going into remission and then living symptom free for decades. So I would prefer that over like, mephedrone raping my immune system and me getting synthetic meph aids. But of course I hope it did nothing.

God I feel like a fucking comin book hero.... After a fateful mishap with a mysterious research chemical, the man known only as Boojum took to the streets, blinding evil does with his bright purple knees.


----------



## euvit

is that you from uk420.com? boojum


----------



## dread

> Why settle for a metaphorical shitty stick when you can be the owner of the real thing, lovingly crafted by fastandbulbous and now available for orders for Xmas 2009. Guarenteed to keep all dodgy drugs, mephedrone included, at arms length!



Hey fnb, wanna outsource the production of the shit for those shitty sticks? I can produce huge amounts of shit every day!


----------



## phatass

No idea but i'm still alive!


----------



## boptillyoudrop

Spiv said:


> Hi guys. I did Mephedrone for the fourth time today with a cumulative dosage of around 600mg (somehow...) over around 6 hours from 2am to 8am this morning. I am still confused as to how I finished the gram off since I only remember taking a 100mg bomb and a couple of lines. This morning, at around 8am, maybe earlier, I started to notice my knees turning slightly purple. I had read about that teenager who overdosed and went blue in the face. Naturally, I start worrying a lot. It became worse and worse until my knees were completely blue and my feet were going really pale. It also happened to my arms, quite severely. I started getting confused and tired. I had developed two red rashes one on my shoulder and one on my thigh. I remember watching the blue spread across my arms until i was covering the majority of the "outsides" of my arms. I kept breathing really deeply to try and slow my heart down and get more oxygen to my body. My hands were really blotchy with red and purple. My limbs had lost temperature and were pretty numb and as I looked in the mirror my ears my pale and slightly tinted blue along with my face. I looked closely and my lips were becoming blue as well. I tried to get the energy to phone an ambulance at this point as I thought that was the end of me. However, Very VERY luckily the side effects peaked and started to subside. I lay in bed breathing deeply for around 2 more hours until my limbs were nearly the correct color. Even now, 12 hours since the first dose (and the majority) and 6 since the final dose of around 50mg, my limbs do not feel right, especially my knees. If I cross my legs now my knees start going blue.
> 
> This is the scariest experience I have ever had with drugs and it has put me off RCs for life that's for sure. I am confused as to why the problems started when the effects had pretty much gone, around the time I started coming down.
> 
> I have taken equivalent doses before and had no side effects what so ever. Does anyone know WHAT THE HELL happened to me? I'm scared that I have caused permanent damage to my cardiovascular system. I also still have poor motor skills and very slow cognition which hasn't changed since I was high.
> 
> I am left now with tachycardia, unwanted stimulation, anxiousness, depression, confusion, forgetfulness,  half dead limbs, apathy and confirmation (for me at least) that Mephedrone is not worth the risk and it has serious toxic effects on the body.



 and you didnt go to the hospital and get checked over- why? why? why if this happened to you and it was the scariest thing ever -feeling better or not you would go asap!!!!!


----------



## fastandbulbous

> I am confused as to why the problems started when the effects had pretty much gone, around the time I started coming down.



Well the concensus seems to be that 4-MMC has a dodgy metabolite, which would account for the above (a bit like if you overdo ket, you don't get the bladder pain immediately after taking it; it generally requires a couple of hours as the toxicity is caused by a metabolite, norketamine)




> hey FnB or Vecktor I would appreciate it if you guys could take a guess at what people who use meph have to look forward to as far as negative effects in the future.




That's the thing, no-one knows as 4-MMC has no real history of use in man - all of the consumption of it seems to have occurred during the last couple of years. I'm against p[rohibition, but when a drug starts to be associated with potentially really serious diseases, someone has to step in and save people from themselves as despite the incidence of really bad side effects coming to the fore, people are still taking stupid amounts in a short period of time.

This isn't in the same league as MPTP (the contaminant that caused heroin addicts in N California to develop the worst cases of Parkinson's disease after one dose), but it is starting to look like in years to come there'll be documentaries, like the ones about MPTP (BBC - Horizon - The case of the frozen addicts) detailing the long term negative consequences of 4-MMC (& possibly related compounds).

In light of the accumulating negative reports about 4-MMC, I'd reckon the smart people would avoid it like the plague as there are much safer compounds out there, even if they are illegal


----------



## MurphyClox

fastandbulbous said:
			
		

> In light of the accumulating negative reports about 4-MMC, I'd reckon the smart people would avoid it like the plague as there are much safer compounds out there, even if they are illegal


Exactly!

Everybody else feel free to go ahead and drop your next dose. Plz take photos if some of your limbs start dying right away. Some graphical depiction of what can happen with this compound will hopefully persuade the majority of users that it is just _crap_.

Low price and legality are definitively arguments with lesser importance, compared to your health.

- _Murphy_


----------



## Sparky1986

I've used mephedrone on perhaps 7 or 8 occasions. I've never gone above a 200mg (oral) dose, nor have I redosed in 24hrs. Apart from a fair increase in heart rate & bp, I haven't noticed any significant side-effects. I must've first tried the compound around 12 weeks ago.

*Responsible* use (which includes not using it at all) is a major factor in reducing these horrific side effects from a scarily popular compound.


----------



## Esoterik

To put things in perspective, could anyone draw any comparisons to other well known drugs? I know a lot of what is going on here is educated speculation, but how toxic would you say mephedrone is compared to MDMA for example? Or any other stimulants?


----------



## vecktor

Esoterik said:


> To put things in perspective, could anyone draw any comparisons to other well known drugs? I know a lot of what is going on here is educated speculation, but how toxic would you say mephedrone is compared to MDMA for example? Or any other stimulants?



as toxic/harmful as ephedrine with probably the same long term problems (vasoconstriction causing lack of oxygen to the heart damaging heart muscle)

much more toxic and harmful than MDMA


----------



## Esoterik

vecktor said:


> as toxic/harmful as ephedrine with probably the same long term problems (vasoconstriction causing lack of oxygen to the heart damaging heart muscle)
> 
> much more toxic and harmful than MDMA



Isn't ephedrine quite a common legal supplement? I know it's not a guarentee of relative safety, but surely if ephedrine was _that_ harmful there would be a fair few incidents of adverse health effects making it illegal, or at least much less common? Is there something that could be taken to supplement mephdrone to counter the vasoconstriction?


----------



## fastandbulbous

> but surely if ephedrine was that harmful there would be a fair few incidents of adverse health effects making it illegal, or at least much less common?



That's why the use of ephedra was banned in suppliments in the US & EU


----------



## Cornishman

I wish I had read this thread yesterday. 
I had my first encounter with this stuff last night - my brain feels a bit strange today, but luckily I escaped the purple limb syndrome!  

I'm now genuinely worried about my friends who're taking this stuff. 
I actually had more turn up at my door this morning (seems they gave me a double order by mistake). 

I'll be throwing it down the toilet after reading this thread!

Shame on the RC vendors for preying on the uneducated general public.


----------



## ColtDan

its probably the people that abuse this stuff that will get problems. although saying that i am technically abusing it myself, although only 400/500mg once a week, been doing it months, never had any problems apart from come downs


----------



## ColtDan

Cornishman said:


> I'll be throwing it down the toilet after reading this thread!




PM me


----------



## Boojum

Mine went down the toilet for sure, fuuuuuck this drug. 

My money is on it caused DIDM or a similar auto-immune reaction. drug induced dermatomyositis. DIDM has been triggered by cocaine use before. The effects are scary similar, purple knees that come and go, discolored knuckles and fingertips, etc etc. A lot of drugs trigger it, but it seems to have a genetic predisposition required too. I am going to get blood creatine tests to determine if this is ruled out, or a possibility. Elevated creatine levels in blood are a strong indicator of DM, although low levels don't rule it out they make the chances of it much lower. 

Thankfully even if it is DIDM, the prognosis of this is significantly better than regular DM, and in modern times the prognosis is drastically better than it was only 50 years ago. in the 60's more than half of people with DM died with in 5 years, in a study concluded in 2004 slightly over 90% of people who had been diagnosied with DM ten years previously, in cases where it was not caused by cancer, were still alive, and 15-20% had it go into full remission with treatment. DIDM has significantly higher remission rates, with over 20% having remission with in two years after discontinutation of the drug that triggered it. Although it should be noted that many people with DIDM didn't have the symptoms show up until ~6 months after starting the drug that triggered it. DIDM is very rare, mostly caused by lipid drugs, with reports of it being caused by cocaine, NSAIDs, heavy alcohol use and anti-retroviral drugs as well. Hopefully this isn't what is happening but the more I read about it the more similar the effects caused seem and the more likely I think this is happening.

I have been researching the fuck out of this disorder recently. Not very much information on it, and a lot of contradictory information as a great deal of progress has been made in treating and understanding the disease in just the past ten years, so older articles tend to say things almost completely different from newer ones, especially regarding prognosis.


----------



## Esoterik

fastandbulbous said:


> That's why the use of ephedra was banned in suppliments in the US & EU



But from what I can tell through google there wasn't an overwhelming amount of evidence for significant health risks, the incidence of serious adverse reactions seems pretty low. So while mephedrone is surely not good for you, do you guys think it is really so bad that all use should be ruled out? I mean, most people on this board are surely ok with putting themselves at some kind of risk?

So, is it a "I'm going to avoid this because I don't know what it does", a "I'm going to avoid this because I don't fancy the long term adverse effects, like one might say about smoking" or is it a "I'm going to avoid this because I don't want to die"?

I just want to understand the feelings you guys have about mephedrone, without having to learn a load of technical chemistry and pharmacology. I've done it a few times now and despite having some minor concerns I was beginning to feel comfortable with it and have shared it with a few people very close to me. But then I read this thread I got a bit worried and started to get the idea that maybe my planned 2-3 week break should be made indefinite.


----------



## dread

For me, it's "I'm going to avoid this because I don't fancy my knees turning purple and fingers falling off"


----------



## Cornishman

Apparently someone I know did 5g's of this one night & tried to cut their arm off to use as a puppet?! 

Needless to say, I really think it fucks with the brain!


----------



## Bob Loblaw

I've done loads of the shit, gotten things like chest pain and lingering visuals (i knoe rite), but never even the slightest tinge of blueness or any noticeable effects on the immune system.  Just my IME, of course.  But lately whenever I look at a popcorned ceiling, it starts to swirl, almost like I'm on a hallucinogen.  I used to have _slight_ HPPD-esque visuals like that, but they're much more pronounced. Also, this past week I think I almost went into a sleep deprivation/psychosis state with the help of Meph .  Visuals were subtle, sounds turned into voices and things they weren't, I heard voices from no sound at all, things quit making sense, and reality started to seem like a dream.  Got a bit unsettling TBH.



			
				f&/b/ said:
			
		

> In light of the accumulating negative reports about 4-MMC, I'd reckon the smart people would avoid it like the plague as there are much safer compounds out there, even if they are illegal


Easier to do if you haven't tried it :/


----------



## Cornishman

bpayne said:


> 65daysofstatic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Raw garlic will go down well with the ladies in night clubs 8). Mind you, will probably be drowned out by the reek of sweaty meph, fags and vodka (the staple diet of the young, male, ill educated meph user  )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> meph users have a diet of faggots? why they gotta be homos?
Click to expand...


Hahaha! 
That made me LOL!


----------



## dread

Eating homos makes you lol?


----------



## ColtDan

Cornishman said:


> Apparently someone I know did 5g's of this one night & tried to cut their arm off to use as a puppet?!
> 
> Needless to say, I really think it fucks with the brain!



i smell bullshit. 5gs is a stupid amount to do in a night, even if thats possible

it doesn't fuck with brains that bad


----------



## Cornishman

dread said:


> Eating homos makes you lol?



Lol 
No one mentioned eating homos. 
They were referring to a staple diet of cigarettes and vodka. (cigarettes being 'fags' here in the U.K).


----------



## dread

How do you british people know the sexual orientation of cigarettes?


----------



## Cornishman

ColtDan said:


> i smell bullshit. 5gs is a stupid amount to do in a night, even if thats possible
> 
> it doesn't fuck with brains that bad



Who knows, that's just what I was told. (Although my mate probably did overexaggerate about the dosage).



dread said:


> How do you british people know the sexual orientation of cigarettes?



Lol. 
We just call them straight fags or gay fags.


----------



## Shiftpicker

pofacedhoe said:


> touch it and you are a guinea pig



I feel like a guinea pig everytime I take a drug


----------



## ManRider

The cases of purple knees and other similar side effects are very worrisome, but it seems that for every incident like this there are at least 100 incidents of people going on multi-gram binges without dangerous side effects. Could it be more accurate that a small minority of people are vulnerable to such dangerous effects due to whatever factor in their biochemistry while the large majority of people will receive no worse than typical stimulant after effects?


----------



## vortex30

ManRider said:


> Could it be more accurate that a small minority of people are vulnerable to such dangerous effects due to whatever factor in their biochemistry while the large majority of people will receive no worse than typical stimulant after effects?



Of course that is the case, at the rate this stuff has been used in Israel, UK and Sweden there would have been some major public safety announcements if a significant minority or majority of users were experiencing this. But we can't be certain about that 'no worse', from what the user is aware of, yes that seems accurate, but there could definitely be things happening that users are unaware of.


----------



## wibble

The future ill effects of these multi gram binges i a complete unknown. Given the short term side effects it's not beyond the realms of possibility that this type of use could turn round and bite people in the ass in the future.


----------



## fastandbulbous

Seeing the incidence of distressing side effects in the short term, the possibility of nasty long term effects looks more & more likely. Seems thepeople sayinmg "stop with the doom & gloom about mephedrone" aren't replying in this thread - possibly they don't want to read about the side effects in detail...


----------



## MeDieViL

Is the yellow or the white mephedrone more likely to cause side effects or is there no pattern at all? Just wondering wheter some toxic additive in one of the two may be contributing to those side effects.


----------



## vecktor

MeDieViL said:


> Is the yellow or the white mephedrone more likely to cause side effects or is there no pattern at all? Just wondering wheter some toxic additive in one of the two may be contributing to those side effects.



my instinct is yellow blue green brown whatever, the principle toxic component is the mephedrone itself or more likely its metabolite. 
people are clutching at straws with all this batch discussion and color debate, the drug itself has immediate toxic side effects in some people some of the time, and if it is anything like ephedrine or methcathinone I expect it to be associated with increased incidence of cardiac damage as well as renal problems and aneurisms in anyone who uses it regularly for an extended period of time. 
I guess we have to wait and see now.


----------



## MeDieViL

vecktor said:


> my instinct is yellow blue green brown whatever, the principle toxic component is the mephedrone itself or more likely its metabolite.
> people are clutching at straws with all this batch discussion and color debate, the drug itself has immediate toxic side effects in some people some of the time, and if it is anything like ephedrine or methcathinone I expect it to be associated with increased incidence of cardiac damage as well as renal problems and aneurisms in anyone who uses it regularly for an extended period of time.
> I guess we have to wait and see now.



Possibly, but if turns out only the yellow batch causes those problems it would have been very stupid not to rule this out from the beginning.
But yeah, more research has to be done, for now i'm still thinking low doses are safe.


----------



## fastandbulbous

^ The delayed symptoms indicate that it's a metabolite and as vecktor said, it had chance to be nasty effects from 4-methylephedrine (or 4-methylnorephedrine); seeing the side effects from ephedrine are nasty, the 4-methyl version had chance to be even nastier (that's from comparing amphetamine with 4-methylampnetamine))



> for now i'm still thinking low doses are safe.



But low doses are in the realms of Never Never Land seeing the compulsion to redose with it...


----------



## MeDieViL

fastandbulbous said:


> ^ The delayed symptoms indicate that it's a metabolite and as vecktor said, it had chance to be nasty effects from 4-methylephedrine (or 4-methylnorephedrine); seeing the side effects from ephedrine are nasty, the 4-methyl version had chance to be even nastier (that's from comparing amphetamine with 4-methylampnetamine))
> 
> 
> 
> But low doses are in the realms of Never Never Land seeing the compulsion to redose with it...



Allright thank you for clearing that out.

Yeah i know its hard to resist, but my personal solution is to throw in amphetamine at the end of the night, i want to be high again not take mephedrone per se.


----------



## Boojum

Vecktor,  you mention using a lot of mephedrone for extended periods likely leading to increased risk of renal failure etc. Do you think that it would be better for someone to use a small amount (although relatively large for single doses, say 4 grams over 3 days) in a short period of time (few days) and get the purple knees etc, or for someone to use average amounts (say 100 or 200 mg) fairly regularly for months? 

Pretty much what I am asking, is what is your guess at what 'extended' and 'regular' use will entail in the context of mephedrone causing heart/kidney/etc problems? And also, do you think people who used enough to get purple knees and such are definitely at serious risk of developing these issues, no matter how much they used? What do you suggest we do? I have been to doctor and they all think I am fine, although I am planning to get ECG (to check for heart problems) and creatine blood tests (to check for dermatomyotisis). If these tests come up normal does it prove anything, or are you suggesting it could take years before the issues that would be detected on for example an ecg would show up?

I am hoping I did not put myself at increased risk of renal problems or aneurysm after using it for three days and developing severe symptoms (that are continuing to fade by the the way). Maybe I got lucky to get negative effects and stop using it rather than use it for months with no negatives and then get renal failure? Or is it more likely people using average doses long term but not getting immediate symptoms are going to end up better off than me?

Do you think it is much worse than ephedrine as far as the long term consequences? 

Another thing to note. Someone I know washed mephedrone and it left brown stuff in the liquid. This was from a white batch, the brown stuff didn't show up until it was washed and recrystalized. After doing this once, it did not rinse out brown in the future, but stayed white. So it seems the white batch has some impurity in it also. We might be able to get it GC/MSed.

BTW, I got my negative effects from the white batch. The different batches have ALL caused the negative severe effects. PEople are MAJOR grasping at straws with this shit. Face the reality that this drug is fucking awful for you in almost all certainty. I have never seen a drug this justified before, even heroin and meth users admit its bad for them, holy shit. But nope, mephedrone is the fucking wonder drug right and everyone with negative effects it is all in their head or due to an impurity in the batch. People treat mephedrone like its their fucking girlfriend and people saying its bad for you are disrespecting their girls.

my advice: DO NOT TOUCH THIS SHIT. There are so many better drugs! Using mephedrone, you might get purple knees and feel like shit for poisoning yourself. I feel like total fucking shit knowing I used something that has caused me some serious problems. Even after getting mostly better I am fucking terrified I have caused serious damage to myself that will show up in a year or five or ten. I will never fucking know what I have done to myself. With most research chemicals I don't regret taking them. 2c-t-2, etc, all are research chemicals but they have been around for tens of years and caused effects not like mephedrone. With most drugs I feel fine after using them and I know that i will likely either get immediate negative effects or likely no long terms if I don't use much. Mephedrone CAN cause you SERIOUS negative effects you WILL regret and be STUCK with for MONTHS not knowing what the fuck happened. Even if you get NO immediate negative effects there is a HIGH chance you are slowly poisoning yourself with this shit. Don't listen to the people who preach about how safe mephedrone is or how it is all in peoples heads. They are fucking addicted to it and justifying the fact that they are poisoning themselves by trying to convince themselves they are not in public forums, unfortunately leading to people thinking that this drug is in any way safe. I hate to sound like a fucking anti-drug person, but mephedrone is fucking shit. You will regret using it. Be it the day you use it, or ten years down the road. Don't buy into this drugs hype. it isnt worth it at all.

If mephedrone does indeed cause heart failure or kidney failure years after use, wow its going to be fucking awful, this drug must have been used by around a million people by now. I read in a news article that over 10 kilos a month are used in single countries in europe, and I believe it. Although I also read a news article that called it synthetic crack, lol.


----------



## Sir Foxx

fastandbulbous said:


> Seeing the incidence of distressing side effects in the short term, the possibility of nasty long term effects looks more & more likely. Seems thepeople sayinmg "stop with the doom & gloom about mephedrone" aren't replying in this thread - possibly they don't want to read about the side effects in detail...



More than happy to reply when something other than anecdotal  and happening to more than a minute percentage occurs.


----------



## fastandbulbous

^Just whast exactly do you require before accepting that it's dodgy stuff?



> and happening to more than a minute percentage occurs.



How community minded of you. That's just the number reported on BL; extend that to the total number of users out there and you've got something that would get a pharmaceutical drug pulled so fast it would make your head spin. I'm hard pushed to think of another drug of abuse that'sd gained widespread acceptance that has the same number & severity of side effects as mephedrone. If you can't see that, then it seems you're living in denial to justify your use of the drug


----------



## Boojum

for what its worth, I know of a case that was never reported on the internet, of someone who used multiple grams in one week and had his hands swell up and become infected. I imagine there are a significant amount of negative reactions that are not reported online.


----------



## Quanta

Exactly Fastandbulbous - A pharmaceutical candidate cannot be approved until there has been a demonstration of no acute or chronic toxicity in 2 animal species (1 rodent and 1 non-rodent) for 6 and 9 months, respectively, after daily dosing.  It varies but generally at least 12 months of daily dosing human data is required.  So even with the reports on mephedrone being anecdotal in nature, mephedrone is not a safe drug (already shows acute tox. and likely chronic problems down the road).  The majority of people that use it once or twice will be fine but beyond that it is scary.  Many people use MDMA (the closest comparable) from their mid-teens until late into their 30's.  Who do we blame?  The government and scumbags who cut E pills or sell piperazines and meph makers looking for a quick buck.  My advice is to avoid mephedrone and find some MDMA, MDA, Methylone, alpha-ethyltryptamine or 4-fluoroamphetamine for use in moderation.


----------



## SA

The important thing to keep in mind here is not necessarily the effect after a single dose, regardless of the amount of that dose, but the cumulative effect of multiple doses of meph on its own and, especially!, when combined with other substances. On their own, those other substances may not have a lasting or signifficant ill effect. Meph, however, is an immunosuppressant. As such, where you would not have suffered an ill effect from another substance before, once your body's defences have been compromised by meph, you may now see ill effects compounded, exponentially. What you may end up dealing with, in the end, is a recovery process not for meph, per se, but for any number of other substances which you may have consumed before, during, or after your meph consumption. 

If you're consuming other substances, either before, during or after meph, then think of it as if you're consuming *ten times* the amount of those other substances, in terms of toxic residuals in your system. Not the "high effects", but toxic residue. There's a difference. So, for instance, if you're having a double shot of vodka after having some meph (a couple of days ago even), picture your liver under the stress of having twenty shots of vodka instead and  imagine the relief and recovery you'd need to give it after such a stress. Same with other substances.

A quick appeal to members and mods here, if I may, please. The "idiots" and "retards" references about users and possibly abusers of meph is not helpful. Not on a board like Bluelight. The best path to harm reduction is not going to be paved with derision. No, those types of cobblestones won't stick; that path will not be chosen and travelled by those whom you wish to teach. The education on the chemical breakdown of meph has been phenomenal here. Time to take the lead in simple-language education about the possible harmful effects of this substance. Repetition, properly grouped reference material of experiences, so on. Not sure what the winning formula will be here, but the way to get there wouldn't be through name calling. Just my opinion. 

Ill effects: if you notice skin changes, I would quit using all substances immediately! Urticaria, discolouration, sensory differences are all urgent signs that either your cardio, circulatory, liver and/or immune functions are critically compromised (short or long term). I would see a doctor for immediate check up, but be careful if they prescribe anything, because those prescriptions may compound the problem and create a host of other problems, now that your system has already been compromised. Seriously look into detoxifying your body in a natural way - lots of natural juice, lots of water, lots of other natural ways out there. Don't even think of exposing your body to anything toxic again until you've fully recovered.

If you're on SSRI antidepressants, I would think doubly carefully about going anywhere near meph. 

I don't think I've ever cautioned, publicly, on the use of any substance before. This stuff, however, is cunning. It's like a trojan, where it may not do the harm itself, but will compromise your defences enough for any and all other substances to pose cumulative harm. 

Stay safe!


----------



## MeDieViL

SA said:


> The important thing to keep in mind here is not necessarily the effect after a single dose, regardless of the amount of that dose, but the cumulative effect of multiple doses of meph on its own and, especially!, when combined with other substances. On their own, those other substances may not have a lasting or signifficant ill effect. Meph, however, is an immunosuppressant. As such, where you would not have suffered an ill effect from another substance before, once your body's defences have been compromised by meph, you may now see ill effects compounded, exponentially. What you may end up dealing with, in the end, is a recovery process not for meph, per se, but for any number of other substances which you may have consumed before, during, or after your meph consumption.
> 
> If you're consuming other substances, either before, during or after meph, then think of it as if you're consuming *ten times* the amount of those other substances, in terms of toxic residuals in your system. Not the "high effects", but toxic residue. There's a difference. So, for instance, if you're having a double shot of vodka after having some meph (a couple of days ago even), picture your liver under the stress of having twenty shots of vodka instead and  imagine the relief and recovery you'd need to give it after such a stress. Same with other substances.
> 
> A quick appeal to members and mods here, if I may, please. The "idiots" and "retards" references about users and possibly abusers of meph is not helpful. Not on a board like Bluelight. The best path to harm reduction is not going to be paved with derision. No, those types of cobblestones won't stick; that path will not be chosen and travelled by those whom you wish to teach. The education on the chemical breakdown of meph has been phenomenal here. Time to take the lead in simple-language education about the possible harmful effects of this substance. Repetition, properly grouped reference material of experiences, so on. Not sure what the winning formula will be here, but the way to get there wouldn't be through name calling. Just my opinion.
> 
> Ill effects: if you notice skin changes, I would quit using all substances immediately! Urticaria, discolouration, sensory differences are all urgent signs that either your cardio, circulatory, liver and/or immune functions are critically compromised (short or long term). I would see a doctor for immediate check up, but be careful if they prescribe anything, because those prescriptions may compound the problem and create a host of other problems, now that your system has already been compromised. Seriously look into detoxifying your body in a natural way - lots of natural juice, lots of water, lots of other natural ways out there. Don't even think of exposing your body to anything toxic again until you've fully recovered.
> 
> If you're on SSRI antidepressants, I would think doubly carefully about going anywhere near meph.
> 
> I don't think I've ever cautioned, publicly, on the use of any substance before. This stuff, however, is cunning. It's like a trojan, where it may not do the harm itself, but will compromise your defences enough for any and all other substances to pose cumulative harm.
> 
> Stay safe!



How would viagra work to counteract the vasoconstriction?


----------



## fastandbulbous

> A quick appeal to members and mods here, if I may, please. The "idiots" and "retards" references about users and possibly abusers of meph is not helpful.




True. I end up using that sort of language due to the exasperation at the people who start with the "stop knocking meph & let me enjoy it" sort of rhetoric in an attempt to get through to people who might be reading it and thinking "well it seems people are being too cautious about this stuff". If they want to be in denial, there's little I can do, but stop trying to convince others that meph is a safe/inconsequential to health high; it's not and the evidence for such is building (by one BLers posts, all reports of adverse effects are anecdotal, but that would also apply to reportsd submitted about pharmaceutical drugs side effects. If people report cardiovascular side effects of a nasty nature, you can't just ignore what they're saying, especially when several others have reported exactly the same sort of experiences


----------



## MurphyClox

In this context, I have one question:
What's Bluelight's general policy toward spreading false propaganda, e.g. deliberately wrong posts etc.?

I mean, this thread has grown now to 12 pages (!), offering an overwhelming wealth of information on the dangers of mephedrone and related substances, provided by wise and knowledgable folks, but *still* people are denying the facts and keep on spreading plain bullshit. Why is this tolerated? I don't call for censorship, but for commonsense.

- _Murphy_


----------



## Boffhead

SA said:


> If you're consuming other substances, either before, during or after meph, then think of it as if you're consuming *ten times* the amount of those other substances, in terms of toxic residuals in your system. Not the "high effects", but toxic residue.


Care to explain why a bit more?

Have done Meph and then Ket later/during a fair few times. I'm worried about the effects especially since Ket is notoriously bad for you anyway.

Have not done Ket in a couple of months now though and don't plan to ever go back... and the same with Meph after reading this.

I began to realise I've hammered the Ket for too long and don't want to end up with any long-term damage to myself. But with Meph it's mainly down to the fact I'm getting semi-decent pills at the moment so I don't need it as an "alternative" which is why I first started doing it.

My 2 cents re:toxicity:

Definitely noticed *something* going on with the heart (slight twinges etc.) but nothing I ever really got freaked out about. Never got blue knuckles or knees but I did think that the veins in my arms/hands seemed a lot darker and more prominent after a couple of months use. Often got breathless very easily afterwards as well, even walking up a set of stairs for example. Not good.


----------



## Cornishman

Is mephedrone actually used for plant food?? 
Or is it purely just a loophole thing?


----------



## dread

It's a loopthing


----------



## Cornishman

So if I fed my plants with this toxic chemical, they might die?


----------



## dread

could be


----------



## azzazza !?

MurphyClox said:


> I mean, this thread has grown now to 12 pages (!), offering an overwhelming wealth of information on the dangers of mephedrone and related substances, provided by wise and knowledgable folks, but *still* people are denying the facts and keep on spreading plain bullshit. Why is this tolerated? I don't call for censorship, but for commonsense.




i think for the attentive reader forming an opinion on whether to use mephedrone or not this fact speaks volumes. that is plain hard-core addiction at work. to me, what you just described is actually the scariest side effect of them all.


----------



## 125loons

ManRider said:


> The cases of purple knees and other similar side effects are very worrisome, but it seems that for every incident like this there are at least 100 incidents of people going on multi-gram binges without dangerous side effects. Could it be more accurate that a small minority of people are vulnerable to such dangerous effects due to whatever factor in their biochemistry while the large majority of people will receive no worse than typical stimulant after effects?



TBH the amounts I was doing before I knocked it on the head were so huge that if I'd done comparable amounts of MDMA or even speed I'd have probably died, almost for certain.  I don't want to say how much as even the people on a certain other drug forum said I was a bit of a mentalist for it and they're all total caners.

For me personally, it felt no worse than any other stimulant, probably better due to the amounts I did.  I'm talking just physically here.

BUT it is HIGHLY addictive, the most addictive thing I've tried, including coke, crack or opiates (never done smack but have used codeine a couple of times from OTC pills and tbh never found it at all moreish).

And it makes me into a bit of an awful perv as well. So that's another reason to avoid it.


----------



## SA

Boffhead said:


> Care to explain why a bit more?



I was just using some figurative maths, B. One  single measure of toxin-A could impart X-amount of damage on a vulnerable body, whereas it would have taken  several doses (and possibly repeated administrations) of the same toxin to impart that same amount of damage on a healthier body. Ozone layer protection analogy. Tooth enamel protection layer analogy. The presence or lack thereof, that is.

Sorry about resorting to the use of analogies. I'm trying to refrain from using the SWIM, AFOAF, my uncle's monkey, or my pet Peruvian Pigmy goat narratives as anecdotal evidence.  (I may add those at a later date)


----------



## ebola?

> Ket is notoriously bad for you anyway.



really?

I mean, norketamine, a first-order metabolite, bears nephrotoxicity, but mainly with severe overuse.

I would say (this comparison is really apples to chairs) that ketamine tends to be safer than any classical stimulant.

ebola


----------



## Boffhead

ebola? said:


> really?
> 
> I mean, norketamine, a first-order metabolite, bears nephrotoxicity, but mainly with severe overuse.
> 
> I would say (this comparison is really apples to chairs) that ketamine tends to be safer than any classical stimulant.
> 
> ebola



I'm pretty sure it does a fair amount of irreversible damage to your kidneys and bladder?


----------



## Jakeperson

dread said:


> Eating homos makes you lol?



Can I make that my signature on here?


----------



## fastandbulbous

Boffhead said:


> I'm pretty sure it does a fair amount of irreversible damage to your kidneys and bladder?




If it did, ketamine would never have got clinical approval. As said, these things only happen when you hammer ketamine


----------



## naatural

Boffhead said:


> I'm pretty sure it does a fair amount of irreversible damage to your kidneys and bladder?



It has done irreversible damage but only to people who would take multiple grams a day for long periods of time


----------



## dread

> only to people who would take multiple grams a day for long periods of time



http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=7487912&postcount=47


----------



## Sturnam

^ they were talking about ketamine, not mephedrone


----------



## dread

Oops. 

brain needs sleep


----------



## fastandbulbous

More proof, if needed, that it's side effects are not something to take lightly

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=460454


----------



## ebola?

> It has done irreversible damage but only to people who would take multiple grams a day for long periods of time



Well, yeah.  This lies vastly outside normal patterns of usage.


----------



## Smyth

Im assuming that the consensus with this stuff is that it is relatively benign at reasonable doses.

It appears quite weak that people can just cane entire grams of the pure powder relatively easily.

That is obviously very easy to do with bupropion, but bu is considered junk and not a respected stimulant.


----------



## dread

> Im assuming that the consensus with this stuff is that it is relatively benign at reasonable doses.



No it's not. Bening and mephedrone are not words I would use in the same sentence.


----------



## ebola?

> Im assuming that the consensus with this stuff is that it is relatively benign at reasonable doses.



Perhaps one could argue this if there were ANY peer-reviewed research on the shit. 
There are some indicators that mephedrone isn't benign even at such levels.  For example, during my one bioassay of the substance, at 200 mg oral, 50 mg booster, taken right at the peak, my pulse was RACING directly before the peak, and if it maintained that level, I would have sought medical attention.

ebola


----------



## fastandbulbous

ebola? said:


> Well, yeah.  This lies vastly outside normal patterns of usage.



Does it? Seems most people get sucked into the compulsive redosing trap pretty quickly


----------



## azzazza !?

^ sarcasm, i assume


----------



## MurphyClox

^^Definitively not, at least not on my side, and I agree with FnB here.



Smyth said:


> Im assuming that the consensus with this stuff is that it is relatively benign at reasonable doses.
> 
> It appears quite weak that people can just cane entire grams of the pure powder relatively easily.
> 
> That is obviously very easy to do with bupropion, but bu is considered junk and not a respected stimulant.



Comparing apples with oranges. Buprenorphine vs. mephedrone is pointless.


----------



## azzazza !?

^funny how the misunderstanding endures. i was referring to ebola?'s original comment on which fnb commented.

edit: okay now im confused as well. are we talking about ketamine or mephedrone? i assumed it was mephedrone, but ebolas comment was actually a comment on a post referring to ketamine. but this is the mephedrone thread 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			
		
		
	


	





massenkarambolage


----------



## ebola?

re: ketamine:

Well, yes, people can do multiple grams, sucked into redose traps ("I have to go back and rediscover 'the secret'!" ), but given the comparative lack of physical addictiveness or a come-down syndrome, the type of abuse that leads to kidney damage seems rare.

re: mephedrone:

Dosing at 1+ gm/day for multiple days in a row appears the norm.  Addiction dangers are pretty much similar to other rapid-acting, short-lasting classical stimulants, only mephedrone appears more toxic.  Many people are fucked. 

Apples to Velociraptors. 

ebola


----------



## Smyth

> Comparing apples with oranges. Buprenorphine vs. mephedrone is pointless.



I said bupropion which is more similar to mephedrone.

Bupropion is worth considering because its a licensed pharmaceutical.

You recall that sertraline started out as tametraline and was changed into something completely different.

I wonder if a retrosynthetically minded person would be able to trace where bupropion is coming from.


----------



## zigandzag

*stupidity*

I have taken mephedrone i do not usually have an addictive personality but my 1st time takin .5g i was wantin more. then afta this me and few friends found that we were takin it nearly everyday average 2/3g aday but once it was 11g in2days (by1person) but der was no cumdown so we kept takin eventually when i managed2stop it completely i was having severe nightmares cold sweets and i ad 4gotten the last time i had ate and i lost 2stone in total in a 5week period then my brain felt as if it was just mmmm floating around in my head every time i shook my head it felt as if it were just floatin around in water disconected as such also if takin this drug if u must dont put it up ur nose 1it burns da hell outa it 2nd me and my friends had alot of nose bleeds but that cood have just bn da amount we were takin. i did mix it with extacy twice 1st time was ok but 2nd was awful very bad cramps and shakes this stuff shood NEVA b mixed way and drug thats all just thought id tell ppl my experience


----------



## vecktor

^.........and one of the worst side effects was the complete destruction of the punctuation centre in the brain 8).

with good therapy you should get back use of commas, and with a lot of work you should get back paragraphs and sentences too.


----------



## EntheoDjinn

dread said:


> No it's not. Benign and mephedrone are not words I would use in the same sentence.


Ermmm ..... you just did


----------



## zigandzag

i dont use commas and stuff like dat as u can c my spellin is shite it has nofin2do way drugs im a lazy fucker


----------



## Dai

Hi guys, 
I've already posted something similar is a different meph forum, but i think this the right place for it, so here goes. 

I got curious about this drug and decided to give it a try, and in a nutshell i took 400mg over the course of about 6 hours during a night out. Had an amazing, brilliant time. 

Woke up the next day with chest pain and mild numbness/pins and needles in my left arm/hand. Both of which come and go but on the whole are fairly constant. They have been going on for about 6 days now, and at times can be a quite scary. I went to see a doctor and had a ECG, blood pressure and various other tests. And it all came back fine, apparently i'm perfectly healthy.  Yet the strange symptoms continue. 
Has anyone else else experienced anything similar? At this point i really hope it's not permanent as it can be pretty scary and troubling. I am wonder if or when its going to get better and go away...


----------



## zigandzag

i neva got numbness i dont fink if u go2page 13 i have written up my expeience on dis


----------



## ebola?

Look up this thread's speculation on toxic metabolites of mephedrone.
IMO, if you had a medical assessment and they claimed that you'd be okay, you should be fine in time, but you just need to catabolize all that nasty 4-methyl-ephedrine, etc.  Did you tell your doctor that you took mephedrone?

ebola


----------



## ebola?

vektor said:
			
		

> ^.........and one of the worst side effects was the complete destruction of the punctuation centre in the brain .



_meta-discussion:_

Granted, that post was hardly readable, but the guy seemed pretty panicked.

ebola


----------



## Dai

ebola? said:


> Look up this thread's speculation on toxic metabolites of mephedrone.
> IMO, if you had a medical assessment and they claimed that you'd be okay, you should be fine in time, but you just need to catabolize all that nasty 4-methyl-ephedrine, etc.  Did you tell your doctor that you took mephedrone?
> 
> ebola



No, i honeslty didn't have the balls, as the doc seemed pretty tired and pissed off anyway. I know, i should of told him, but i figured like alot of people of said, he's probably never heard of meph before. He asked if i'd done any stimulants and i told him the truth and said i had, 6 days ago. Really hoping these symptoms pass in time. Had a bit of a panic attack today about the pins and numbness for an hour, ok now though. 

I'd also just like to say that i know that there are those who think this drug is only damaging to people who abuse it, I think i am pretty much clear evidence that this is simply not the case. If you've tried it, had a good laugh, and not experienced what I and some others have been going through i.e chest pains and numbness in my case from quite a small first time dose. And even turning blue for others. Good for you. 
However if you've never tried it before, i have to tell you that in my opinion it simply isn't worth taking the risk. If i introduced it to a friend of mine and this happened to them i would feel horrible about it, as my friend who introduced me to it now feels. To be completely honest it has had me really worried for a week now. I've had plently of fun experimenting with other substances, stuff with at least a bit of research and experience behind it, going to stick with the tried and true . 

NEVER doing this stuff again.

(PS. sorry if i got a bit preachy, but nothing has ever had me so paranoid or worried before)


----------



## ColtDan

zigandzag said:


> I have taken mephedrone i do not usually have an addictive personality but my 1st time takin .5g i was wantin more. then afta this me and few friends found that we were takin it nearly everyday average 2/3g aday but once it was 11g in2days (by1person) but der was no cumdown so we kept takin eventually when i managed2stop it completely i was having severe nightmares cold sweets and i ad 4gotten the last time i had ate and i lost 2stone in total in a 5week period then my brain felt as if it was just mmmm floating around in my head every time i shook my head it felt as if it were just floatin around in water disconected as such also if takin this drug if u must dont put it up ur nose 1it burns da hell outa it 2nd me and my friends had alot of nose bleeds but that cood have just bn da amount we were takin. i did mix it with extacy twice 1st time was ok but 2nd was awful very bad cramps and shakes this stuff shood NEVA b mixed way and drug thats all just thought id tell ppl my experience




what an idiot. not for the typing, but generally....11 grams in 2 days... what a fucking idiot lol


----------



## Smyth

> but der was no cumdown



lol


----------



## eViLChEf

I agree with coltdan- 11 grams of ANYTHING in two days is a little excessive....except maybe weed


----------



## MeDieViL

Yeah, the effects this guy had could be expected with any drug you abuse, be happy you didnt turn purple and never abuse an unresearched chemical like that again.


----------



## DAVE H

Well, some self indugent chemists on this forum have managed to confuse many people including me who are looking for some basic understanding of the risks associated with the use of methedrone or Mephadrone. In simple terms, is there a difference?


----------



## vecktor

me*ph*edrone (4Methyl methcathinone) 
me*th*edrone (4-methoxy methcathinone)


looking at the structures Me*th*edrone is probably more dangerous, because the related amphetamine causes severe cardiovascular side effects along with somethin that looks like serotonin syndrome and has killed quite a few people over the years.

neither are safe. 

neither are worth the risk IMHO

leave them alone


----------



## fastandbulbous

^ The proverbial shitty stick is required here, the one I wouldn't touch them with!


----------



## DAVE H

*4-Methylmethcathinone*

Thank you for the response and information. I recently used 4-Methymethcathinone which was bought from the internet. It was more like whie powder and I thought that this stuff was kind of chrystal like. It did worjk though. Just worried after reading all the information on this site and I am somewhat confused about the differences. I am now aware that there are mainly two which sound alike; Meph and Meth but some companies advertise meph but when it arrives it is meth, if that makes sense.

looking at the structures Me*th*edrone is probably more dangerous, because the related amphetamine causes severe cardiovascular side effects along with somethin that looks like serotonin syndrome and has killed quite a few people over the years.

neither are safe. 

neither are worth the risk IMHO

leave them alone[/QUOTE]


----------



## vecktor

DAVE H said:


> Thank you for the response and information. I recently used 4-Methymethcathinone which was bought from the internet. It was more like whie powder and I thought that this stuff was kind of chrystal like. It did worjk though. Just worried after reading all the information on this site and I am somewhat confused about the differences. I am now aware that there are mainly two which sound alike; Meph and Meth but some companies advertise meph but when it arrives it is meth, if that makes sense.




the differences in physical form mean nothing, grind crystalline stuff and you get powder, recrystalise the powder and you get crystals. it is easy for white crystalline materials to be 1% pure and brown sticky lumps can be 98% pure.

on the whole the vendors themselves have no clue what they are selling, they rely on the analysis from the manufacturer and chinese manufacturers often create analytical reports, the vendors don't check. so their customers don't have a hope in hell

most of the material in circulation is the 4-methyl compound with 4-methoxy being much rarer (fortunately). however it really doesn't matter because neither of them are good for you.


----------



## kaskelot

vecktor said:


> me*ph*edrone (4Methyl methcathinone)
> me*th*edrone (4-methoxy methcathinone)
> 
> 
> looking at the structures Me*th*edrone is probably more dangerous, because the related amphetamine causes severe cardiovascular side effects along with somethin that looks like serotonin syndrome and has killed quite a few people over the years.
> 
> neither are safe.
> 
> neither are worth the risk IMHO
> 
> leave them alone



How does PMMA cause those problems? Why would they occur with the cathinone, and wouldn't methedrone feel more like a fiercer drug than mephedrone if it was more prone to do really bad stuff through cardiovascular mechanisms and serotonin fever of some sort? 

I'm not defending either, I'd just like to know if there's solid reason behind your guess except that PMMA makes methamphetamine seem nice and methedrone molecularly shares some of PMMA:s treats.


----------



## vecktor

kaskelot said:


> How does PMMA cause those problems? Why would they occur with the cathinone, and wouldn't methedrone feel more like a fiercer drug than mephedrone if it was more prone to do really bad stuff through cardiovascular mechanisms and serotonin fever of some sort?
> 
> I'm not defending either, I'd just like to know if there's solid reason behind your guess except that PMMA makes methamphetamine seem nice and methedrone molecularly shares some of PMMA:s treats.



there are a couple of general rules:

cathinones usually metabolise to the betahydoxy compounds.

the betahydroxy phenethylamines/amphetamines with a given substitution on the ring have much greater peripheral activity than the related amphetamines 

PMA and PMMA cause spectacular rises in BP through vasoconstriction and their effect on the heart and have killed more than a few people

ergo these cathinones are a bad idea.

I really don't understand the logic of your post. how would such a vague concept as fierceness correlate to anything, in the same way how can you feel neurotoxicity. PCA in human trials was a nicely smooth anorectic, the fact it was ablating serotonin neurons. Aminorex and dexfenfluramine are likewise smooth but can do severe cardiovascular damage to people


----------



## hamhurricane

vecktor said:


> PCA in human trials was a nicely smooth anorectic



do you have a link to the human PCA trials? i would love to hear more information about that, was it really described as "smooth" or lacking in noticeable side effects? i understand the point your making is that neurotoxicity cannot necessarily be "felt" but still, i find that quite astonishing.


----------



## fastandbulbous

vecktor said:


> there are a couple of general rules:
> 
> cathinones usually metabolise to the betahydoxy compounds.
> 
> the betahydroxy phenethylamines/amphetamines with a given substitution on the ring have much greater peripheral activity than the related amphetamines
> 
> PMA and PMMA cause spectacular rises in BP through vasoconstriction and their effect on the heart and have killed more than a few people
> 
> ergo these cathinones are a bad idea.
> 
> I really don't understand the logic of your post. how would such a vague concept as fierceness correlate to anything, in the same way how can you feel neurotoxicity. PCA in human trials was a nicely smooth anorectic, the fact it was ablating serotonin neurons. Aminorex and dexfenfluramine are likewise smooth but can do severe cardiovascular damage to people




4-methylamphetamine is nasty stuff, hence my concern about 4-MMC from the day it appeared


----------



## vecktor

hamhurricane said:


> do you have a link to the human PCA trials? i would love to hear more information about that, was it really described as "smooth" or lacking in noticeable side effects? i understand the point your making is that neurotoxicity cannot necessarily be "felt" but still, i find that quite astonishing.



the information is in most of the older books on AMP type compounds, and there is a paper where PCA was tested for anorectic activity in humans, where the( highly desirable) lack of peripheral sympathomimetic side effects was noted. if you search backwards through citations from the 60's papers on fenfluramine like I did you run into the papers on PCA.

If I get the time I will find the exact ref.

V


----------



## Piratey

greetings,

While I have no real knowledge of chemistry, I guess like many people reading through this thread I have tried several other drugs like Mephedrone like mdma and various legal highs etc. So I may have a few insights people might find useful...

In around 48 hours we had approximately 2.0 of Mephedrone, and this is 1st time I have taken a large-ish dose of  it -  when I compare it to the effects/side-effects of everthing else I have to say that my impressions are good. 

Now this might sound stupid to some, especially those approaching the subject from a purely scientific stance. But I think that your bodies reaction to a chemical  is important and should not be ignored - very simple reactions like being sick are obvious signs that your body is rejecting what you have taken in - as is feeling nauseous when deciding to re-dose - there are many others. When taking anything i/legal  be your own guinea pig, if you react badly to it, you should be making a decision at that point if taking it again is wise. |Eg. Eating magic mushrooms makes me gag and feel nauseous, but I will still take them every couple of years - but not frequently. And the legal high 'purple ohms' (BZP + other stuff...?) I will never go near ever again, purely because of how long it took me to right myself again after having it. 

All that said, taking any drug regularly is just a bad idea - and it is worth assessing why you choose to do so (very different subject)

The discussion as to the few unusual and extreme reactions is not limited to unknown substances/illegal/recreational drugs. Look at the huge lists of possible side affects of prescription and over the counter drugs - ranging from mild irritations to death... while most people will have none at all - everyone is different and we all react to what-ever we put into our bodies differently (it seems I'm allergic to mint-sauce....)

Sorry about the rant, it is just my thoughts on the matter, and definately doesn't cover the whole subject - though to me it seems logical. I guess I'm just saying be responsible for yourself - you don't need a scientific study to tell you that something is bad for you, you can do that yourself.


----------



## Jamshyd

^ No, that's actually a very good post. The original (and recurrent) intent of BL is Harm Reduction, and your post is an excellent example of such.

Sadly, many people who post this, especially ones on stims, forget about the whole Harm Reduction thing. It's good to see points of view like yours.

---

As for the thread itself... Mephedrone actually seems like a very tempting drug, but I wouldn't even touch it with a 10-foot pole because it seems to be bad news. Worse news than Meth, that's for sure.


----------



## hugo24

Piratey said:


> (it seems I'm allergic to mint-sauce....)



Only a problem when you're British! (Sorry I couldn't resist that one


----------



## fastandbulbous

^ Not if you're British & a veggie (no need of mint sauce to go with the lamb!)


----------



## hugo24

Oh,british veggies don't add mint sauce to their vegetables? Positive surprise here ...


----------



## kaskelot

vecktor said:


> there are a couple of general rules:
> 
> cathinones usually metabolise to the betahydoxy compounds.
> 
> the betahydroxy phenethylamines/amphetamines with a given substitution on the ring have much greater peripheral activity than the related amphetamines
> 
> PMA and PMMA cause spectacular rises in BP through vasoconstriction and their effect on the heart and have killed more than a few people
> 
> ergo these cathinones are a bad idea.
> 
> I really don't understand the logic of your post. how would such a vague concept as fierceness correlate to anything, in the same way how can you feel neurotoxicity. PCA in human trials was a nicely smooth anorectic, the fact it was ablating serotonin neurons. Aminorex and dexfenfluramine are likewise smooth but can do severe cardiovascular damage to people



OK. Thanks. 

Well, I think I can feel vasoconstriction and high blood pressure, and also usually feel the rise in body temperature from serotonergic drugs, but I might be entirely wrong.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

When one takes this drug and their resting heart rate is about 120bpm (otherwise it's 60-70), is that something to be worried about?


----------



## pofacedhoe

Bob Loblaw said:


> When one takes this drug and their resting heart rate is about 120bpm (otherwise it's 60-70), is that something to be worried about?



i would say so

the problem i had with this drug was that i love the rush and the adrenaline feeling. i have become bored with it lately and the stale feeling afterwards. its addictive as hell and in reality the high isn't amazing anymore simply its just a carefree mong feeling and very compulsive. i simply cannot control my use and want to have my nose not cave in within a couple of years so my love of mephedrone has to end

as for not snorting it- once you develop an addiction to the act of snorting with one drug early in life you will always want to snort others.

the paranoia from this drug can be quite intense and the anger when you have been on a three day run quite excessive. all in all bad news, plus it smells of shit and makes people horny in a way that doesn't reflect their normal desires.


----------



## Twigs

pofacedhoe said:


> once you develop an addiction to the act of snorting with one drug early in life you will always want to snort others.


I feel exactly the same when it comes to stims. The act of snorting is almost as rewarding as the effect. Kind of weird actually


----------



## MurphyClox

Twigs said:


> I feel exactly the same when it comes to stims. The act of snorting is almost as rewarding as the effect. Kind of weird actually



That's called "Pavlovian conditioning". Start barking NOW!


----------



## egor

^not barking- he needs to drool when he hears a bell


----------



## ManRider

For those of you who think that mephedrone should probably be avoided, what do you think about methylone? (especially because its also a relative of methcathinone)


----------



## dread

Twigs said:


> I feel exactly the same when it comes to stims. The act of snorting is almost as rewarding as the effect. Kind of weird actually



In that case I hope you'll never try IV injections...


----------



## Twigs

dread said:


> In that case I hope you'll never try IV injections...


I wont! I have a bit of an addictive personality, so thats something I will stay clear of...


----------



## pofacedhoe

MurphyClox said:


> That's called "Pavlovian conditioning". Start barking NOW!



tell me about it- i have seen two instances where female friends of mine where both moaning, " i want to stick something up my nose".

notice the word something... its not the drug its the pattern of pain followed by rapid mood elevation

SHNIFF


----------



## fastandbulbous

dread said:


> In that case I hope you'll never try IV injections...



My basis for never taking drugs this way - would make so many things far too addictive for my liking; anyway it would need another person to do it because I have a bit of a needle phobia (no honest!) surrounding seeing them enter flesh. Before anyone asks, you can IM a drug into your backside without the need to see the needle enter (just cover your whole arse cheek with isopropanol to give maximum target area, but be careful it doesn't reach your dangly bits or it hurts like hell ;D)


----------



## nuke

Bob Loblaw said:


> When one takes this drug and their resting heart rate is about 120bpm (otherwise it's 60-70), is that something to be worried about?



Yes, absolutely, that's pretty high.  Though once on DOI my resting heart rate was like 100 or so, but it was hard to tell, it seemed to be going in step to the rhythm at the universe at that point, dancing in synchronization to the patterns on the wall.

But yeah, you could take some propranolol or something.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

^Is that OTC?

What would be cardioprotective (or close to it) and OTC you guise would recommend most post-binge?


----------



## nuke

No, it's prescription.  I'm not sure what would be beneficial that's available over the counter.


----------



## egor

What is it going to take for people to wake up and stop binging on this shit?!?


----------



## fastandbulbous

nuke said:


> Yes, absolutely, that's pretty high.  Though once on DOI my resting heart rate was like 100 or so, but it was hard to tell, it seemed to be going in step to the rhythm at the universe at that point, dancing in synchronization to the patterns on the wall.
> 
> But yeah, you could take some propranolol or something.



Better still, don't take the mephedrone in the first place!


----------



## Jamshyd

^ Yes.

Stims + Beta-blockers is bad news IME.


----------



## Treacle

^Can be. I know they aren't supposed to be used with cocaine, because of unopposed alpha agonism, which can make things a lot worse. 

I don't think a heart rate of 120BPM is anything to be concerned about, so long as your blood pressure isn't through the roof. Most stims have my heart rate over 100BPM, but it doesn't cause any issues.


----------



## fastandbulbous

Artificial Emotion - no not even once as I've never trusted the ring methylated amphetamines, so it's a natural extention to also avoid the analagous cathinones




> I don't think a heart rate of 120BPM is anything to be concerned about



At high heart rates, like this, it's possible that the heart doesn't get enough blood. While this is OK if it's done through exercise (because it's short acting and muscle can anaerobically metabolize glucose (well pyruvic acid) to lactic acid), but having that heart rate for something like 20 hours is way beyond what anaerobic respiration can cope with and that;s not good for the muscle tissue involved


----------



## Mugz

^so would that suggest that only putting the heart at a high rate for the same duration that you would exercise would not be anything to be concerned about?


----------



## fastandbulbous

In short bursts, it's actually good for you; it's just prolonged severe tachycardia that is to be avoided


----------



## Mugz

so could short term stimulant use for 2 or 3 hours a day maximum replace the need for cardio exercise. Quite interesting if this is true. I know it wouldn't help build up other muscles other than the heart.


----------



## B9

I somehow doubt that's what's being suggested mugabe.


----------



## isotopic_parody

my heart rate is generally ~100 at rest.... I've seen at 189 while on way too much meth before.... I think stimulants are probably a bad idea for me...


----------



## ebola?

Are you seeing a physician for possible cardiovascular disease?


----------



## Operation Atlas

I think people are blowing the safety threat of mephedrone way out of proportion. There have been only 3 or 4 recorded deaths from the drug, all but one of which involved the concomitant use of other stimulants. This is absolutely fantastic considering the number of people that have tried the drug. A number of over the counter medications have a far worse safety profile than this.

Mephedrone is a stimulant. Therefore, you have to follow the warnings that also apply with EVERY OTHER stimulant on the planet. That means, pretty much, that you shouldn't do more than you know you can handle (titrate dosage up slowly- don't just snort a big fat line the first time you see it), that you shouldn't do it for a long period of time, and you shouldn't combine it with drugs that have similar effects (especially amphetamines, cocaine and mdma).

Mephedrone is probably a much safer drug than many other stimulants because it has a hard time crossing the blood-brain barrier. The real threat with cocaine, for instance, is due to vasoconstriction in the medulla. Mephedrone's only demonstrated vasoconstriction is in the extremities, and is therefore not a significant threat to life.

If you dose slowly, you will be able to notice early signs of peripheral vasoconstriction far in advance of any adverse complications. If you notice pale, blue or cold hands or feet, simply stop use. If you have them on hand, take a benzodiazepine. A vasodilator may help to a certain degree- marijuana may be a good "antidote", and I'd be willing to bet that nitrites (amyl/isobutyl/isopentyl nitrite AKA poppers) would be very effective in an emergency situation.

One more thing- stop comparing mephedrone to PMA/PMMA. The chemicals have absolutely nothing in common except a phenyl group, which are extremely common amongst organic molecules. Cathinone/Methcathinone (and to a far lesser extent, (pseudo)ephedrine) are really the only relevant drugs when it comes to comparing effects/side effects.

tl;dr: Don't be dumb. Don't do more than 500mg in a 24-hour period. Don't use more than 1-2 times a week. If you have self control problems, stay away from it all together.


----------



## dread

^ so, another vendor trying to justify selling this horrible crap to people, eh?

For the record your post makes no sense whatsoever.


----------



## Operation Atlas

fastandbulbous said:


> 4-methylamphetamine is nasty stuff, hence my concern about 4-MMC from the day it appeared



Can you link to anything proving that 4-MA is a significant metabolite of mephedrone? Based on the effects/duration of mephedrone, I would seriously doubt that 4-MA is present in any significant amounts.  4-MA is a neurotoxin, and all of the bad side effects we've noticed have been related to peripheral vasoconstriction, which 4-MA wouldn't play an especially important role in.


----------



## Operation Atlas

dread said:


> ^ so, another vendor trying to justify selling this horrible crap to people, eh?
> 
> For the record your post makes no sense whatsoever.



I'm not a vendor. I work in the medical device industry, working with cardiovascular implants. Sorry if my post was hard to read- I sometimes have a hard time putting cardiovascular terminology into "plain english." Can you be more specific as to what was hard to understand about the post?


----------



## ColtDan

i understood operation atlas's post ok.


----------



## nuke

Operation Atlas said:


> Can you link to anything proving that 4-MA is a significant metabolite of mephedrone? Based on the effects/duration of mephedrone, I would seriously doubt that 4-MA is present in any significant amounts.  4-MA is a neurotoxin, and all of the bad side effects we've noticed have been related to peripheral vasoconstriction, which 4-MA wouldn't play an especially important role in.



You don't even need to justify it by saying that it's a metabolite -- it's well know that putting a hydrophobic atom into the 4-position increases an amphetamine's affinity for SERT and thus serotonin release, which is well known to be a precursor for amphetaminergic neurotoxicity and cardiotoxicity.

EC50 DA/NE/5HT nM

d-Amphetamine			8.0±0.43,		7.2 ±0.44,	1756±94
meta-Methylamphetamine 	33.3±1.3,		18.3±1.4,		218±22
para-Methylamphetamine 	44.1±2.6,		 22.2±1.3,	53.4±4.1

Wee S, Anderson KG, Baumann MH, Rothman RB, Blough BE, Woolverton WL (2005). "Relationship between the serotonergic activity and reinforcing effects of a series of amphetamine analogs.". J Pharmacol Exp Ther 313 (2): 848-54.

The affinity of methcathinone and methamphetamine for DA/NA/5HT release is as follows:

EC50 DA/NE/5HT nM

(+)-Methamphetamine	12.3 ± 0.7,	24.5 ± 2.1,	736 ± 45
(–)-Methcathinone		13.1 ± 0.6,	14.8 ± 0.4,	1772 ± 160

Rothman RB, Vu N, Partilla JS, Roth BL, Hufeisen SJ, Compton-Toth BA, Birkes J, Young R, Glennon RA. (2003) In vitro characterization of ephedrine-related stereoisomers at biogenic amine transporters and the receptorome reveals selective actions as norepinephrine transporter substrates. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 307(1), 138-145.

We can only make an educated guess that 4-Methylmethcathinone is somewhere between methcathinone and 4-Methylamphetamine in terms of 5HT release, and given that it's very possible we're dealing with a strongly neurotoxic and cardiotoxic agent.  I mean, methamphetamine is incredibly neurotoxic yet is 60x preferential for DA over 5HT compared to 220x preferential for amphetamine, while 4-Methylamphetamine's ratio is 1.2x!


----------



## dread

These parts made no sense:



> Mephedrone is probably a much safer drug than many other stimulants because it has a hard time crossing the blood-brain barrier.



Drug not passing BBB doesn't make it safer. Peripheral effects can be just as (if not more) dangerous as cns effects.



> There have been only 3 or 4 recorded deaths from the drug, all but one of which involved the concomitant use of other stimulants.



Obviously the number of deaths is not the sole factor in determining the harmfulness of a drug.  See how many reports are flooding in about horrible side effects, such as intense vasoconstriction to the point of limbs turning blue. You can dismiss them as anecdotal but IMO that would just be living in denial.



> If you dose slowly, you will be able to notice early signs of peripheral vasoconstriction far in advance of any adverse complications.



Nonsense. There's at least one report of a guy getting vasoconstriction and blue knees/fingers after a single medium sized dose.



> One more thing- stop comparing mephedrone to PMA/PMMA. The chemicals have absolutely nothing in common



These chemicals have lots in common. They all are para-substituted phenethylamines. They all have horrible side effect profiles. They all are chemicals most sensible people wouldn't touch with a 10' shitty stick...


----------



## ebola?

> We can only make an educated guess that 4-Methylmethcathinone is somewhere between methcathinone and 4-Methylamphetamine in terms of 5HT release, and given that it's very possible we're dealing with a strongly neurotoxic and cardiotoxic agent. I mean, methamphetamine is incredibly neurotoxic yet is 60x preferential for DA over 5HT compared to 220x preferential for amphetamine, while 4-Methylamphetamine's ratio is 1.2x!



Wait.  I thought that you said that MA was more neurotoxic than MDMA at 'equivalent' (not sure...typical dose to typical dose?  I'm sure isn't per-milligram...that comparison'd be silly, unless I misunderstood you), suggesting that a DA flood in the presence of moderate 5ht efflux presents greater neurotoxicity than a moderate flood of 5ht and sizable release of DA.  Thus, it does not follow that a higher ratio of 5ht to dopamine release reliably marks the magnitude of neurotoxicity.

I would imagine that people will tolerate a level of neurotoxicity equivalent to MDMA (yes, non-neurotoxic would be ideal. . .).  Given your above hypothesis, 4MMC should exert less neurotoxicity than MDMA, in terms of that occurring via simultaneous DA and 5ht release (it could of course do other bad things).  Of course, if that hypothesis is false, 4MMC could be way worse.

I think that threatening death, amputation, etc. is bad enough. 

ebola


----------



## swilow

Operation Atlas said:


> I think people are blowing the safety threat of mephedrone way out of proportion. There have been only 3 or 4 recorded deaths from the drug
> .



Oh, is that all? Sweet 8)

Stick to LSD.


----------



## nuke

ebola? said:


> Wait.  I thought that you said that MA was more neurotoxic than MDMA at 'equivalent' (not sure...typical dose to typical dose?  I'm sure isn't per-milligram...that comparison'd be silly, unless I misunderstood you), suggesting that a DA flood in the presence of moderate 5ht efflux presents greater neurotoxicity than a moderate flood of 5ht and sizable release of DA.  Thus, it does not follow that a higher ratio of 5ht to dopamine release reliably marks the magnitude of neurotoxicity.
> 
> I would imagine that people will tolerate a level of neurotoxicity equivalent to MDMA (yes, non-neurotoxic would be ideal. . .).  Given your above hypothesis, 4MMC should exert less neurotoxicity than MDMA, in terms of that occurring via simultaneous DA and 5ht release (it could of course do other bad things).  Of course, if that hypothesis is false, 4MMC could be way worse.
> 
> I think that threatening death, amputation, etc. is bad enough.
> 
> ebola



A dose by dose comparison perhaps isn't that silly...  Let's say that the effective concentration to release dopamine for amphetamine requires 20mg of dextroamphetamine or 10mg of dextro-methamphetamine...  Compare this to the slightly less lipophilic (-)-cathinone/(-)-methcathinone which is active around 40mg/20mg.  From the EC50s you can see that 4-Methylamphetamine is at least 1/5 or so as active as a dopamine releaser, so you'd expect the equivalent dose around 100mg or more.  The average dose of methedrone is around 200mg (usually higher), which is about what you'd expect if you were estimating.  So who's to say at these doses you're not producing a similar release of DA/NE, yet at the same time vastly producing more serotonin release?  This are all pretty similarly sized compounds in terms of molecular weight too, so there's not really that much difference between the molar concentrations vs. mass dosages.  The beta-Keto group of the cathinones is always probably going to reduce the affinity for SERT and thusly 5HT release, but with the huge advantage in release garnered by the addition of the 4-Methyl group in 4-Methylamphetamine as well as the potency of methylone and its substitution of MDMA I don't think it's too far off in believing that 4-MMC can produce a large amount of 5HT efflux.

You can check out the EC50s for MDMA and pCA, too:

EC50 DA/NE/5HT nM
(±)-MDMA		376 ± 16,		77.4 ± 3.4,	56.6 ± 2.1

MDMA is preferential for 5HT release over DA release by quite a lot (though I'm pretty sure the NE release is probably reinforcing and plays a role in it's abuse potential), but it's well known MDMA exhibits a not so nice neurotoxicology profile as well.  p-Chloroamphetamine is roughly equipotent to or slightly than MDMA in terms of generating 5HT efflux, which would also make it roughly equivalent to 4-Methylamphetamine in that regards.  So this would put 4-Methylamphetamine between meth and MDMA in terms of DA/NE/5HT release.  Whether you trust that as safe or not is up to you.

(The bit on pCA mediated efflux: "Serotonin-transporter mediated efflux: A pharmacological analysis of amphetamines and non-amphetamines" Neuropharmacology)


----------



## Operation Atlas

I wish we had these numbers for mephedrone itself, instead of having to try to compare analogues.

It is obviously subjective, but I definitely feel like mephedrone has very little action on serotonin and is active much more with dopamine and norepinephrine. I'm quite surprised that methcathinone is so heavy on serotonin. Maybe the two compounds aren't as closely related as I had assumed.

Unlike most other chemicals with a similar structure, 4-MA's action on serotonin release is very low. Since we know that 4-MA is para-substituted like mephedrone, maybe mephedrone is very low on serotonin release as well. That would back up my subjective observations, but there's obviously very little we have to go in in this respect.

When it comes to how all this effects neurotoxicity, we won't know until somebody does a real animal study. However, there's not much of a rebound or hangover associated with mephedrone use, like there is with amphetamines and especially mdma. I'm not exactly sure about the correlation, but it is my understanding that this is a good indicator of neurotoxicity.

I think you guys are overestimating the dangers of peripheral vasoconstriction. You don't really have to worry about vasoconstriction unless it keeps up for a significant period of time (>12 hours), which is extremely unlikely with responsible use of the drug. Obviously this can be a problem with the idiots who are doing two-week benders on it, but almost anything would be dangerous when consumed in those levels, so I don't think there's anything special about mephedrone in this regard.

The main cardiovascular risk with these types of drugs is with the heart itself due to tachycardia and subsequent arrhythmias. Mephedrone doesn't appear to be too heavy on the central cardiovascular system, and would most likely be much safer than most amphetamines due to reflex bradycardia because of said vasoconstriction. The only other related compound that I'm aware of that has similar vasoconstrictive properties is pseudoephedrine, which as we know is pretty safe. Even pseudoephedrine has some small risks in tachycardia, palpitations and arrhythmia- but it is still safe enough to be over the counter. I wouldn't be surprised if Mephedrone's cardiovascular risk lined up favorably to that of pseudoephedrine.


----------



## nuke

Operation Atlas said:


> Unlike most other chemicals with a similar structure, 4-MA's action on serotonin release is very low. Since we know that 4-MA is para-substituted like mephedrone, maybe mephedrone is very low on serotonin release as well. That would back up my subjective observations, but there's obviously very little we have to go in in this respect.



Huh?  4-MA is as potent of a serotonin release as MDMA or pCA.



> When it comes to how all this effects neurotoxicity, we won't know until somebody does a real animal study. However, there's not much of a rebound or hangover associated with mephedrone use, like there is with amphetamines and especially mdma. I'm not exactly sure about the correlation, but it is my understanding that this is a good indicator of neurotoxicity.


I don't really get hangovers from methamphetamine or MDMA unless I use crazy amounts and avoid sleep, but that doesn't mean it's not toxic.



> The main cardiovascular risk with these types of drugs is with the heart itself due to tachycardia and subsequent arrhythmias. Mephedrone doesn't appear to be too heavy on the central cardiovascular system, and would most likely be much safer than most amphetamines due to reflex bradycardia because of said vasoconstriction. The only other related compound that I'm aware of that has similar vasoconstrictive properties is pseudoephedrine, which as we know is pretty safe. Even pseudoephedrine has some small risks in tachycardia, palpitations and arrhythmia- but it is still safe enough to be over the counter. I wouldn't be surprised if Mephedrone's cardiovascular risk lined up favorably to that of pseudoephedrine.


I would, being that mephedrone is probably a strong 5HT releaser and that it may in the long term cause cardiac valve damage.  It's like fenfluramine and phentermine all in one drug, with a shorter half life but higher abuse potential.   We don't even known if it's a 5HT2B agonist either (like norphenfluramine), but the structure is fairly similar.


----------



## Operation Atlas

nuke said:


> Huh?  4-MA is as potent of a serotonin release as MDMA or pCA.



Compared to amphetamine analogues.




nuke said:


> I would, being that mephedrone is probably a strong 5HT releaser and that it may in the long term cause cardiac valve damage.  It's like fenfluramine and phentermine all in one drug, with a shorter half life but higher abuse potential.



It doesn't matter how much 5ht it releases, it matters whether it binds to HTR2B receptors. This is also only really a problem with long-term usage, as with phen-fen when prescribed for daily use. Mephedrone also has a much shorter half-life than either of these two chemicals.

As long as you don't give mephedrone to fat people on a daily basis, I think the cardiovascular risks are very small.


----------



## vecktor

Operation Atlas said:


> I think you guys are overestimating the dangers of peripheral vasoconstriction. You don't really have to worry about vasoconstriction unless it keeps up for a significant period of time (>12 hours), which is extremely unlikely with responsible use of the drug. Obviously this can be a problem with the idiots who are doing two-week benders on it, but almost anything would be dangerous when consumed in those levels, so I don't think there's anything special about mephedrone in this regard.
> 
> The main cardiovascular risk with these types of drugs is with the heart itself due to tachycardia and subsequent arrhythmias. Mephedrone doesn't appear to be too heavy on the central cardiovascular system, and would most likely be much safer than most amphetamines due to reflex bradycardia because of said vasoconstriction. The only other related compound that I'm aware of that has similar vasoconstrictive properties is pseudoephedrine, which as we know is pretty safe. Even pseudoephedrine has some small risks in tachycardia, palpitations and arrhythmia- but it is still safe enough to be over the counter. I wouldn't be surprised if Mephedrone's cardiovascular risk lined up favorably to that of pseudoephedrine.



if there is reflex bradycardia why is the reported pulse rate of users rediculously high? 
Mr cardiovascular genius can you explain how vasoconstriction and consequent reduced blood supply to the heart muscle combined with tachycardia and increased oxygen demand by the cardiac muscle is a good thing? 
Also can you explain the prevalence of pains in the chest and in the left arm, also the reports of people who have used the drug heavily having severe brethlessness. 

Mephedrone is IMHO  a shitty stick drug, but each to their own, maybe it is a worthwhile drug if you have access to discount cardiovascular implants???


----------



## nuke

> Compared to amphetamine analogues.


Right, but it doesn't concern you that putting a methyl in the 4-position increases the affinity for the 5HT release 33 fold?  That's a hell of a lot more than n-methylation increases the affinity (a bit over 2 fold).  N-methylation of (-)-cathinone to (-)-methcathinone decreases the concentration needed to achieve 5HT release from 2,366 to 1772 nm, not as dramatic as the difference from AMP to METH but still considerable.  I don't think it's far off to think that the 4-position methylation may achieve a remarkable increase in serotonin release for methcathinone.  And it's already known methcathinone is a neurotoxin, too.



> It doesn't matter how much 5ht it releases, it matters whether it binds to HTR2B receptors. This is also only really a problem with long-term usage, as with phen-fen when prescribed for daily use. Mephedrone also has a much shorter half-life than either of these two chemicals.
> 
> As long as you don't give mephedrone to fat people on a daily basis, I think the cardiovascular risks are very small.


Yes, it does matter how much 5HT is released as methamphetamine has an affinity for the 5HT2B receptor that is undetectable (Ki database entry #48555, >10 µM) yet causes pulmonary arterial hypertension and cardiac valve proliferation.  Aside from that, it's still very possible that mephedrone is a 5HT2B agonist as is.


----------



## Operation Atlas

vecktor said:


> if there is reflex bradycardia why is the reported pulse rate of users rediculously high?
> Mr cardiovascular genius can you explain how vasoconstriction and consequent reduced blood supply to the heart muscle combined with tachycardia and increased oxygen demand by the cardiac muscle is a good thing?
> Also can you explain the prevalence of pains in the chest and in the left arm, also the reports of people who have used the drug heavily having severe brethlessness.
> 
> Mephedrone is IMHO  a shitty stick drug, but each to their own, maybe it is a worthwhile drug if you have access to discount cardiovascular implants???



I haven't seen any reports of "rediculously high" heart rates. In order to be of any concern, it'd have to be >150bpm for more than a half hour. My resting pulse rate on the stuff is usually 90-110bpm, which is high but certainly not enough to cause heart damage.

Obviously extreme levels of vasoconstriction aren't great for your heart, but the vessels near your heart are fucking huge, and aren't going to cut off blood supply to any part of your heart absent a blockage of some kind. The only thing that will happen is increased peripheral resistance, which increases blood pressure, which will immediately cause the heart to slow down (reduce cardiac output).

If you go on a mephedrone binge, you WILL get chest pains- I've never defended usage of this stuff for more than a 8 hour period. It'd be pretty much the same as if you were jogging for a day straight- unless your heart's in really great condition, keeping it at >120bpm for a long period of time is not good for it.

I haven't seen any reports of breathlessness- the only reason this would happen in a cardiac situation is if there is fluid buildup in the lungs due to compromised heart function, probably in the right ventricle. I don't see that happening, and if anything mephedrone would probably reduce any fluid buildup in the lungs. The breathlessness is most likely due to the ROA more than anything.

I'm not trying to say that this stuff is great for you, I'm just trying to argue that you guys are way overestimating the dangers of this drug. By saying such outlandish things people aren't going to listen to you and are just going to do the drug anyhow. People need to be aware that there are levels of responsible usage and that there are levels of irresponsible usage, and I think we should be concentrating on keeping people from using irresponsibly, instead of keeping them from using at all. Applying shit sticks and whatnot just makes you sound like reefer madness fear mongers.


----------



## ColtDan

i used to get heavy heart beats/louder heart for a few days after doing the really smelly meph. since ive stopped doing that stuff ive not suffered from it. a potentially useful bit of information for anyone that does do the smelly stuff. avoid that shit. it also gave me minor visuals


----------



## vecktor

Operation Atlas said:


> I'm not trying to say that this stuff is great for you, I'm just trying to argue that you guys are way overestimating the dangers of this drug. By saying such outlandish things people aren't going to listen to you and are just going to do the drug anyhow. People need to be aware that there are levels of responsible usage and that there are levels of irresponsible usage, and I think we should be concentrating on keeping people from using irresponsibly, instead of keeping them from using at all. Applying shit sticks and whatnot just makes you sound like reefer madness fear mongers.



Bluelight is not some consensus based organisation, there are people who can take different positions on various things, that is the beauty of it.

I don't care if people take this drug or not , or responsably or irresponsably, it is their decision, just like it is my decision, based on what I can see, NOT to take this drug.
Just as it would be my judgment based on what I have seen in your posts not to rely on you for medical information.

I truly hope I am wrong with the hazards of mephedrone, sadly I think that time will prove me right.


----------



## ebola?

> A dose by dose comparison perhaps isn't that silly... Let's say that the effective concentration to release dopamine for amphetamine requires 20mg of dextroamphetamine or 10mg of dextro-methamphetamine... Compare this to the slightly less lipophilic (-)-cathinone/(-)-methcathinone which is active around 40mg/20mg. From the EC50s you can see that 4-Methylamphetamine is at least 1/5 or so as active as a dopamine releaser, so you'd expect the equivalent dose around 100mg or more.



I was thinking of a comparison with MA.  Okay, I meant that x milligrams vs. x milligrams didn't make sense, so you have something way more sophisticated here.  BUT, wouldn't making this comparison between MA and MDMA entail a ridiculous dose of MDMA?  Is that why we can say that MA is more neurotoxic, as no one takes a dose of MDMA that releases as much DA as typical doses of MA?



> I don't think it's too far off in believing that 4-MMC can produce a large amount of 5HT efflux.



I was likely unclear.  I don't doubt 5ht efflux for 4MMC (I'd be surprised if it didn't ), but I wondered why we'd expect it to be significantly worse than MDMA.



> p-Chloroamphetamine is roughly equipotent to or slightly than MDMA in terms of generating 5HT efflux



Okay...I thought p-CA was SUPER neurotoxic, like MPTP but for neurons w/ 5ht receptors.  Is there an additional mechanism?



> (The bit on pCA mediated efflux: "Serotonin-transporter mediated efflux: A pharmacological analysis of amphetamines and non-amphetamines" Neuropharmacology)



Thanks.  This layperson needs edumacation. 

ebola


----------



## nuke

> I was thinking of a comparison with MA. Okay, I meant that x milligrams vs. x milligrams didn't make sense, so you have something way more sophisticated here. BUT, wouldn't making this comparison between MA and MDMA entail a ridiculous dose of MDMA? Is that why we can say that MA is more neurotoxic, as no one takes a dose of MDMA that releases as much DA as typical doses of MA?



Well, MDMA analogues that are pretty much selective for 5HT release like MBDB are still self-administered in rats.  It may simply be that the subjective high and desired amount/type of effects is different between METH and MDMA so the dosing is different because something fundamentally different is achieved.  But then again, maybe DA really has shit all to do with the related neurotoxicity of MDMA and NE release is a bigger part of the picture (catecholamine transporters are promiscuous), and the subjective effect is just from this specific combination, or maybe the 5HT2A/5HT2C receptor agonism really impact subjective effect and monoamine release in specific areas of the brain that you can't learn about from looking about how many monoamines a cell releases when exposed to such and such chemical.  It gets convoluted, which is why this mostly remains a estimate.

Aside from that MDMA is fairly specific towards serotonergic neuron neurotoxicity while METH will kill off both serotonergic neurons and dopaminergic neurons (and I'm pretty sure there was a study recently specifying it did nothing good for norepinephrinergic neurons as well).  How to extrapolate the neurotoxicity between the two is hard to say exactly: METH is about 10 fold as potent a neurotoxin as MDMA, but they have different neuronal selectivity, different monoamine releasing patterns and different affinities for various 5HT receptors.



> I was likely unclear. I don't doubt 5ht efflux for 4MMC (I'd be surprised if it didn't ), but I wondered why we'd expect it to be significantly worse than MDMA.



Well, in terms of 5HT release it could possibly be similar to MDMA (who knows really, just reaching around in the dark, maybe slightly less).  But the thing is the ratios involved for say DA:5HT and NE:5HT release don't seem to be in good ranges as far as toxicology goes.  We haven't heard a lot of glowing things about 4-Methylamphetamine, and it's smack in the middle.  I'm not sure that say, 4-Chloroamphetamine is going to be much different.  I mean, hydrophobic interactions, slightly larger van der Waals radius, but otherwise they tend to act fairly similar (as can be made out with the potency of the 2C/3C psychedelic phenethylamines).  The electronegativity for Cl is a little higher, so you know, you could maybe guess a slightly higher affinity for the DA/NE transporter, but the para-Bromine analogue has a very similar electronegativity to carbon yet similarly a awful toxicology profile to p-CA.

Even the source of the monoamine release data is important too, as human dopamine cell lines have indicated a many fold higher affinity of (+)-METH for the human dopamine transporter as compared to rat dopamine cell lines.  The proteins/enzymes between organisms, even closely related ones, are rarely perfectly equivalent to eachother.  I think these were for human cells, though the paper with 4-MA/3-MA had slightly different efflux values for DA/NE for d-AMPH as per usually given, with them near equipotent which is slightly strange.



> Okay...I thought p-CA was SUPER neurotoxic, like MPTP but for neurons w/ 5ht receptors. Is there an additional mechanism?


I mean, METH is pretty hideously neurotoxic but its damage seems localized to areas of the brain that don't generally impact motor control, so even if you damage dopaminergic cells, you may not always get the same results.  pCA is strongly neurotoxic although if I recall correctly it was tried in humans in the 50's.  Not sure what the results were exactly.  The earlier studies that evaluated the toxicology had found that the mechanisms by which it produced neurotoxicity were distinct from those of METH and MDMA, though I'm not sure what the significance of that is exactly.  What seems pretty clear is that things that release DA/NE and 5HT together, even with ratios moderately favouring one or the other, seem to be very good at producing neurotoxicity whereas agents that don't do not.  There's still a great need for the production of more evidence, though.

One experiment that could be done to evaluate the 5HT release of mephedrone is to monitor the temperature of the user before and after the ingesting of the drug.  5HT releasers generally always elevate temperature.


----------



## Amberthefrog

Some great posts in here, specially by vecktor. I've sampled the stuff twice, both times loving it and experiencing pretty much no negative effects. After reading the stuff about a potential beta-hydroxyl metabolite though, I'm not going to touch the stuff again. Even if it's probably fairly safe to take it infrequently at low end doses, the list of potential risks involved seems too great to make the experience worth it. Maybe one day if toxicity research is done, till then bye-bye. Glad I sampled it though, very enjoyable, unique experience. What has shocked be is the apparent rise in usage in the UK over the past few months. 5 months back I had only heard about this stuff on the internet, now I have spoken to numerous people who have tried it.



> I'm not trying to say that this stuff is great for you, I'm just trying to argue that you guys are way overestimating the dangers of this drug. By saying such outlandish things people aren't going to listen to you and are just going to do the drug anyhow. People need to be aware that there are levels of responsible usage and that there are levels of irresponsible usage, and I think we should be concentrating on keeping people from using irresponsibly, instead of keeping them from using at all. Applying shit sticks and whatnot just makes you sound like reefer madness fear mongers.



Stupid post.


----------



## pofacedhoe

it clearly has a large effect on 5ht, if you have ever tried ssri's e.g. citalopram it has an overlap of effect- the massive effect on colours in vision when using mephedrone (you dont get this with speed or coke to anywhere near the same degree). this is probably responsible for people comparing its effects to mdma-the way a thing makes you feel can be used to compare to known effects of other things you have tried

it also has a large adrenaline effect (hence the feeling of adrenaline rush after a line and the micro willy álá amphetamine) and a moderate dopamine effect ( if you have been taking coke it feels seriously weak in euphoria by comparison). if you have done a lot of stimulants you can guage what a new stimulant is doing with a degree of accuracy...


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## phillop

First study I have seen in journal about it, thought it would do well here. And if anyone can access the full article and not just the abstract and upload it or PM me it that would be VERY much appreciated. As I dont think the dosage in the abstact is right, or its very misleading in some way.

CLINICAL TOXICOLOGY Volume: 47 Issue: 7 Pages: 733-733 Meeting Abstract: 153 Published: 2009



> *153. Recreational Use of 4-Methylmethcathinone (4-MMC) Presenting with Sympathomimetic Toxicity and Confirmed by Toxicological Screening*
> 
> Wood DM,1,2 Davies S,3 Puchnarewicz M,3 Button J,3 Archer R,4 Ramsey J,3,5 Lee T,3 Holt DW,3 Dargan PI.1,2 1Clinical Toxicology, Guy’s and St Thomas’ Poisons Unit, London, United Kingdom; 2King’s Health Partners, London, United Kingdom; 3Analytical Unit, St George’s, University of London, London, United Kingdom; 4Kingston University, Kingston upon Thames, United Kingdom; 5TICTAC Communications, St George’s, University of London, London, United Kingdom.
> 
> *Introduction:* Leaves of the Khat plant (Catha Edulis) are widely chewed by the Somali community for their stimulant properties. This is due to release of cathinone from the leaves on chewing. Extraction from khat and/ or synthesis of cathinone and the related alkaloid methcathinone are controlled under the UK Misuse of Drugs Act, 1971. However, other cathinone derivatives such as 4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC, mepherdone) are not currently controlled. 4-MMC is promoted as “safe and legal” alternative to classified recreational drugs. We report the first case of toxicity related to 4-MMC confirmed by toxicological screening. Case report: A 22 year old man presented after oral ingestion of 200mg and subcutaneous injection of 3.8g of 4- MMC. He developed palpitations and blurred vision shortly after use. On arrival in the ED he had sympathomimetic features (agitation, 7mm dilated pupils, HR 105, BP 177/111 mmHg). His temperature was 36.3°C and he had normal tone with no clonus. EKG showed a sinus tachycardia only. He was treated with 1mg of oral lorazepam. His sympathomimetic features settled within 6 hours of presentation. Serum and urine samples taken at the time of presentation were sent for toxicological analysis. Toxicological Screening Screening methods were developed for 4-MMC using in-house derivatives of cathinone and methcathinone checked for purity by Nuclear Magnetic Resonance. Samples were screened using Gas Chromatography with Mass Spectrometry. The only substance detected was 4-MMC; no other drugs or alcohol were detected. Liquid chromatography with tandem Mass Spectrometry was used to confirm and quantitate 4-MMC, the serum concentration was 0.15mg/L.
> 
> *Conclusion:* We report the first case of confirmed, lone, use of 4-MMC resulting in sympathomimetic toxicity. Clinical toxicologists should be aware of the potential for use of these compounds in patients presenting with sympathomimetic toxicity.


----------



## dread

> subcutaneous injection of 3.8g of 4- MMC.



W T F


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## phillop

dread said:


> W T F


^ I know! I would have thought that even half of that would give someone a heart attack. Thats why we need the full paper. The abstract implies it was done at once, but he may have taken it over a longer time period.

Either way, 3.8 grams is a hell of a lot to do in one session no matter what timescale or ROA.


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## dread

With a subcutaneous injection, no less... Try injecting 3.8 grams of _anything_ under your skin with one dose... :D


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## Jamshyd

ANY drug that make you think its ok to S.C. 3.8g is obviously not safe for you .


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## vecktor

the 3.8g number is a typo. it would be next to impossible to inject that much sc.

I would guess the true number is some round gram number minus the 200mg that was snorted so probably 800mg.


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## pofacedhoe

yeah why would someone inject over ten times more than they were gonna swallow, it doesn't make sense, if you were gonna inject loads why swallow any at all?


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## shoolameet

Has anyone on SSRI's given this stuff a shot? 

I am not on SSRI's, but have been in the past and may possibly go back on them. I don't roll often, but I do like to once in a while and if I am being medicated the opportunity to roll will obviously be taken away. So I was wondering about any interactions between Meph and SSRI's. Is it safe to combine? Will the meph still have an effect? Thanks.


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## dread

> Is it safe to combine? Will the meph still have an effect?



Who knows?

You're dealing with unresearched substances here.


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## ebola?

ITT: oooowwwwiiiiieeee!


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## eclipsedesign

mugabe said:


> so could short term stimulant use for 2 or 3 hours a day maximum replace the need for cardio exercise. Quite interesting if this is true. I know it wouldn't help build up other muscles other than the heart.



Yes, sittting down and doing stimulants is a great way to keep the heart healthy. Even better than a bowl of shreddies 8)


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## Xevro

those kinda dosages are rediculous.


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## phillop

shoolameet said:


> Has anyone on SSRI's given this stuff a shot?



Really not a good idea mate, the effects are greatly blunted and it gave me an awful pressure headache when I did.

And yes people, I think that 3.8g dosage has to be a mistake. Like they got a decimal point wrong or something.


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## An Iz

I'm somewhat surprised no one has mentioned injecting mephedrone yet.

I know that as you get lower and lower on the rungs of human existence people begin to use needles as one of their basic tools- like junkies will inject vitamin c or alcohol for the hell of it.  

So I 'know' that people are shooting mephedrone.  But we haven't heard about it on bluelight at all yet.  If it works that way, I bet the negative effects will show up in that community first.  But maybe you'd need to be a pathologist to see it @ this time, and then you might not know what you're looking for in the dead guy's blood?


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## Shambles

^ There are a number of posts in various forums around BL from people who have injected mephedrone. Including a few from myself as I've done it a number of times. I find it to be unimpressive and kinda pointless IV'd. I've tried it at various doses from 75-150mg from a coupla different batches. Many folks insist the powdery stuff is inferior to the crystal type with the latter being supposedly stronger, cleaner feeling and with less nastiness. Must admit it felt that way to me, although neither are exactly great 

For me, the rush is nothing special, the peak feels admittedly rather yummy for a short while, then you get the shitty side effects kicking so another shot to put them off, rinse, repeat, end up with no meph feeling strung out and shitty. Not that I make a habit of it cos I'm not a big fan of meph at all but am a rampant drugpig and had a brief dalliance.

No ongoing problems other than the freaky heart sensations which persisted for a few weeks after using around 10g in a month. Suspect anyone using it more heavily and for prolonged periods would do themselves a nasty or two cos it really didn't feel healthy. My drug use in general isn't healthy but meph feels like poison to me 

Not used it since cos it's nasty, toxic crap. And even worse it's a pretty shitty high :D

PS: And yes, I was once one of those junkies that has often shot up vit C and alcohol for the hell of it for many years - needles are my friend down here on the lowest rung of existence


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## PrettyKitty

> PS: And yes, I was once one of those junkies that has often shot up vit C and alcohol for the hell of it for many years - needles are my friend down here on the lowest rung of existence



O dear me. 

My heart valves have been replaced by Mephedrone deposits. Maybe they'll hold up a bit better than that weak fleshy tissue those humans call a heart. Pfft


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## Mandy's_Method

shoolameet said:


> Has anyone on SSRI's given this stuff a shot?
> 
> I.



Yes my friend mephedrone quite often and he is on SSRI's when he came off them for a brief spell he did not notice any change in effects of mephedrone. 
And they are definately SSRI's as snorting a line of 5htp nearly killed him.

On a side note on a 3 day binge i consumed over 12gs of mephedrone and after the panic attack filled comedown noticed no other side effects. 

Infact cumalatively since early august i have conusmed above 55gs at a conservative estimate and have not noticed any change physically or psycologically. That said my tolerances for all drugs are very high and so much so for mephedrone that i need at least 500 mgs to get a good high for more than 10 minutes.


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## hugo24

Snorting 5-HTP????


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## nuke

Eh, it's probably both an SSRI and a serotonin releaser.

Why anyone would snort 5HTP is beyond me.


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## ShiftyRave

I don't often go out on this, i find the short peak means afterwards i get very indecsive, and undoubtedly the idea i had previously is no longer interesting.
However, me and the missus find it rather fun partaking in some use together and spending the night in ;]]]

Worst side effects probably after the 3G-4 Night mini-binge without sleep and eating.. but mainly i think due to lack of sleep/nutrients, i kept getting rushes through my body that'd make me jump and i'd hear a loud beep in my ears, but only when i tried to lay down, and they would come about every 15-20 minutes, luckily in one of the gaps i managed to sleep... for about 16 hours.. then since then no problems :]

We don't use loads, that was the most i'd ever used and longest period of use for a session
Usually an all-nighter, me and the misssus, about a gram, some weed, lots of water/squash and a long lay-in in the morning, followed by a good dinner.
Problem solved 

And yes, there are some possibly harmful side effects! As are there to every substance we partake in the use of! It's all about researching a good starter dose, halfing it, then building up if need be, just to check how your system agrees with it.
First time you got drunk, undoubtedly you didn't drink 2 70cl bottles of jack daniels and realise you were being sick all night and woke up with a horrible headache.. 
If you drink a bit, then find your comfort zone, you may still wake up with a horrible headache, but, it doesn't stop you doing it again does it? Sounds really silly that we do when you look at it like that eh?
Oh and no, 'but when you start drinking jack hurts your throat' or similair gripes as mephedrone hurts your nose first time you snort it... comparable to mdma, but almost more of a burn eh?


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## H__

shoolameet said:


> Has anyone on SSRI's given this stuff a shot?
> 
> I am not on SSRI's, but have been in the past and may possibly go back on them. I don't roll often, but I do like to once in a while and if I am being medicated the opportunity to roll will obviously be taken away. So I was wondering about any interactions between Meph and SSRI's. Is it safe to combine? Will the meph still have an effect? Thanks.



My gf recently started taking 20mg Citalopram (SSRI) daily. She got diminished effects from MDMA pills as expected but Mephedrone seemed to work well for her on two occasions so far (possibly had a greater effect on her than on other people in our group who weren't on SSRIs).

That's not to say the combo is not harmful in some way, I have no idea.


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## Sturnam

nuke said:


> Eh, it's probably both an SSRI and a serotonin releaser.



Is this comment (that it's a serotonin releaser) based on SAR's, comments from people who experience full effects from mephedrone while on SSRI's, or something else?

This would mean that mephedrone is especially dangerous for people on SSRI's, and the binge pattern could easily lead to serotonin syndrome, correct? Any idea why there aren't more reports of this?


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## nuke

Most monoamine releasers rely on transport via the respective transporter.  Block the transporter and you will fail to get 5HT release it seems -- which is why fluoxetine blocks MDMA induced serotonergic neurotoxicity.  Things that cause indirect release like DXM or inhibit catabolism like MAO-A inhibitors are the things that are toxic in conjunction with SSRIs.

And I meant to say that mephedrone is probably a serotonin reuptake inhibitor, but it's not selective.


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## QuasiStoned

I am such an impatient person - I really want to see some tests ran on this stuff.  We have all of these speculated ideas for why mephedrone could be a very risky endeavor (and a fair bit of anecdotal evidence to suggest the same thing) but no formal studies or anything.

I don't really know anything about what has to happen for researcher to want to invest their time into a certain chemical.  Will they wait until the government steps in and schedules it before someone finally steps in and says "Hey look everybody mephedrone metabolizes into chemical X, a powerful neurotoxin that causes parkinson disease, AIDS, erectile dysfunction, and severe anal fissures approximately 7 years down the road."

I guess I'm asking if we are close to getting some research published on this or does it usually take a long time for this sort of thing to occur?


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## nuke

Usually a government has to take interest because widespread abuse is appearing and they want to schedule the drug, but you can't really schedule anything anywhere until you know for sure how dangerous it is and what the abuse potential is (unless you're Germany).  The government will then fund a study to examine the toxicology.


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## tathra

Operation Atlas said:


> I'm not trying to say that this stuff is great for you, I'm just trying to argue that you guys are way overestimating the dangers of this drug. By saying such outlandish things people aren't going to listen to you and are just going to do the drug anyhow. People need to be aware that there are levels of responsible usage and that there are levels of irresponsible usage, and I think we should be concentrating on keeping people from using irresponsibly, instead of keeping them from using at all. Applying shit sticks and whatnot just makes you sound like reefer madness fear mongers.



in the interest of harm reduction, i think the "dont bother with it, its too toxic and not worth it" stance is the best.  once people know the dangers and risks associated, then they can make their own judgment call on whether or not to do it.  there will always be risk-takers who will do dangerous things, like combine MDMA + reversible MAOI's (as i have done), or who wish to take a known amount of PMA just to see what its like (as i want to do), but such people typically dont until they know all the possible risks and dangers.

and the truth is, with how i've heard of people binging on mephedrone and how it apparently makes you fiend like you've been smoking crack, i'm all for the fear mongering, because its based on truth, and it will probably save more lives and bodies, which will keep governments from taking notice of this and all the other stuff that's now available.


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## Josama

Well,thought it would be good too also add my experiences with meph.I used it 3 Weekends in a row.Thought that it wasn't meph alone,it were caps containing a mix of 125 mg meph and 125 methylone.

The first night I took one pill and drank one vodka redbull(red vodka).The first thing that I noticed whas that the crown of my head was cribbling,while on it,feeled like someone was massaging head.(this happened every time)
The day after I only had a slight comedown(I never did any drug expect Cansbis before that).
The first 4 days after I noticed an increase in concentration,calmness and engery.(good,not nervous)
On the 4 day I had sports in school and noticed that my at the place of my head where I got that cribbeling It hurt(well it did't really hurt,felt like somebody would pick you with a pencil) when running around,but faded after 2 hours of sports(I think this is actually from the methylone?).The same afternoon I noticed some moprphing of the lanscape when watching in the same place for serveral seconds(this was gone the next day and didn't come back)From the 4 day onwards I began feeling nervous,but in a good way.

The second Time effects seemed too be a litte decreased at the same dose.
The second time I only drank coca cola.Effects dured not quite as long as first Time and the comedown was also worse.
The second day after taking it,I feeled for the first time a real side effect,suddenly while sitting in class I became pretty hot and started sweating,the sweat smelled like mephedrone.Luckily it only dured less than a minute and felt noticebly better after.This time also while doing sports my head hurt.

The third time I took 2 caps at once so a mix of 250 mg methylone 250 mg mephedrone.The only it time I had jaw clenching,but only for half an hour or even less.Drank only coca cola again,had the worst comedown yet the day after,also craving,but countered that with canabis.
2 days after I felt tired and had nomotivation but wrote 52/60 points in my history test(I never had on above 50 since primary school)On the End of the test I began feeling somewhat ill,after the test in the next lesson I felt asleep and after waking up I again became hot and began sweating for less than a minute,this time sweat didn't reek like meph thought.I decided to go home and after I stood up I felt dizzy for a few seconds, again I began sweating a little but faded again after less than a minute.When I arrived at my home I took one rathiopharm grippal C+,eat something a slept for an hour,after waking up took another RG C+ and an hour later felt complety fine again.

Also note that the first and the third time I danced like crazy while the second I was for the most part writing messages with my phone.
The tree times,I never feeled the slightest increase in heart rate as when to compared when I drink a cup of coffee my heart feels like it has doubled it's speed.Also I have ADD.And I smoke 25 cigarettes day(if that is relevant)

So,hope this helps a little


PS: I wrote this while complety sober


----------



## 4-OH

^

Sorry Jo, but it's really hard to read if it's one block of text, could you separate it into paragraphs so I can read it and respond


----------



## Josama

Divided in 3 paragraphes,hope that's better.


----------



## vecktor

can people stop posting inane mephedrone trip reports in this thread, unless your trip report specifically refers to the thread topic which is *How toxic is mephedrone.* there is a whole sub forum helpfully called trip reports to post this useless shite in.

the signal to noise in this thread is becoming abysmal.


----------



## Josama

Well,sorry,I had no intention of making a trip report out of it, I just wanted to point the out the side effects so that people can use it as a hint on concluding how toxic it is. I just wanted to write it as a whole so that it makes sense.

If it's useless than I'm very sorry, I just wanted to help.


----------



## pk5000

Seems like this guy says it's safe http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/staff/iain/

"Professor Iain McGregor was quoted as saying that there was nothing wrong with the 'designer drug' Mephedrone. A synthetic compound which is marketed widely on the Internet under an assortment of names which include 'MM-Cat', '4-MMC' and 'Plant Food Meow'.

Mephedrone, which is banned in Finland, Israel, Sweden and Denmark, comes in either powder or pill form and is derived from the khat plant.
Khat is a legal stimulant normally consumed by chewing, which is widely available on UK high streets in communities with large ethnic minorities originating from Somalia, Ethiopia and the Sudan.

Professor McGregor, director of Sydney University's Psychopharmacology Laboratory, was quoted as saying that there was nothing wrong with the drug.

	"Unfortunately for people like myself ... who [is] here to tell people drugs are bad, there doesn't appear to be a whole lot that is bad about it," Professor McGregor said."

now if he would only detail the reasons or tests behind why he feels that way.....I think a lot of people would be interested...


----------



## nuke

pk5000 said:


> Seems like this guy says it's safe http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/staff/iain/



Seems like that guy's comment was taken completely out of context:


Riklet said:


> Iain McGregor's reply to the fairly long e-mail I sent him about his statements about mephedrone in that article...





> hi (Riklet),
> 
> that article was one of the worst pieces of journalism i have ever read, and completely misrepresented my views.
> 
> i had a long conversation with the journalist and assisted her in every way possible to access further information about mephadrone.
> 
> my viewpoint was that there was hardly any systematic research on mephadrone and as such we were unaware of its toxicity.
> 
> if was a "don't know" rather than a green light to use the drug.
> 
> i think what she wrote was almost criminally irresponsible as well as an abuse of the courtesy i showed her in discussing the topic in depth.
> 
> i have made this clear to her in an email sent today. i guess i should learn to expect this from murdoch press journos - sigh!
> 
> thank you for your thoughts on the matter. i would be grateful if you would also forward your views to the journalist involved:
> 
> Marnie O'Neill <oneillm@sundaytelegraph.com.au>
> 
> best wishes, iain



http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=7742262&postcount=119


----------



## Annapurna

Since there do seem to be dangers in taking mephedrone and so many of these new designer drugs, what are the alternatives, or at the very least, which of these legal highs is the safest but with a decent high?


----------



## pk5000

thanks for following up Nuke....great post....and I figured something was off about the story....


----------



## nuke

> Since there do seem to be dangers in taking mephedrone and so many of these new designer drugs, what are the alternatives, or at the very least, which of these legal highs is the safest but with a decent high?



The 3-Fluoromethcathinone that's going around right now apparently is probably at least a little bit safer, I would guess.  It should be selective for dopamine and norepinephrine, so it would at least be less neurotoxic (or not neurotoxic) because it's less serotonin releasing.  It's probably a much cleaner feeling stimulant too, should be similar to amphetamine or methcathinone.  MDPV is also probably fairly innocuous, but no one can say what the long term effects would be.


----------



## 7zark7

nuke said:


> The 3-Fluoromethcathinone that's going around right now apparently is probably at least a little bit safer, I would guess.



Sorry to go slightly OT, but is that the same or similar to Flephedrone (4-Fluoromethcathinone)?


----------



## nuke

Oh, that was my mistake, sorry.  The stuff that's going around now is 4-Fluoromethcathinone I guess (Flephedrone?  What a bizarre name...)  3-Fluoro will probably prove to be the better and more clean stimulant if I had to guess.  I had thought 3-F-MCAT had made rounds too but I don't know.  I don't have a ton of interest in these weird cathinones.

edit: No, I was right: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=458536


----------



## nuke

Okay, good news as to the toxicology of 4-Methylamphetamine:


> p-Bromoamphetamine 27 and p-bromomethamphetamine 2R, 29 lower brain
> serotonin to an extent comparable to the reduction caused by the corresponding
> p-chloro compounds. pFluoroamphetamine decreases serotonin levels, but its
> effects do not persist to the same degree as those of p-CA.27s 30* Other parasubstituted
> amphetamines have less activity (trifluoromethyl, phenoxy) or no
> activity (methyl, methoxy ) as serotonin depletors.*20
> Norfenfluramine is an analog of p-CA that bears an m-trifluoromethyl substituent
> instead of a p-chloro substituent on the ring. Norfenfluramine and
> fenfluramine (the N-ethyl compound) lower serotonin in rat brain for a very
> long time, though they are slightly less active than p-CA.3*-34 Although Costa
> and Revuelta 32 have reported that norfenfluramine increases serotonin turnover
> instead of decreasing it, as p-CA does, we find that norfenfluramine causes a
> rapid reduction of tryptophan hydroxylase accompanying the decline in serotonin,
> just as p-CA does (TABL3E) . Sanders-Bush et al. have reported shortand
> long-term depletion of serotonin and tryptophan hydroxylase in rat brain
> after injection of fenfluramine.'? In general, the actions of norfenfluramine and
> fenfluramine on brain serotonin neurons may be very similar to those of p-CA
> and other chlorinated amphetamines.


Ray W. Fuller, "STRUCTURE-ACTIVITY RELATIONSHIPS AMONG THE HALOGENATED AMPHETAMINES" Annals New York Academy of Sciences 1978

So despite the large amount of 5HT release, no 5HT neuronal toxicity (or at least no permanent decreases in 5HT) seems to be apparent with 4-MA.  This is interesting, but it still doesn't necessarily mean that 4-MMC is safe in terms of neurotoxicity in terms of both dopamine neurons and 5HT neurons.


----------



## MeDieViL

Interesting, great post nuke.


----------



## Unbreakable

vecktor said:
			
		

> What is wierd is that those people who have reported severe reactions had taken it previously at high doses without adverse effects. which inspiredme to look into the likely metabolites
> 
> We know little about the metabolism of 4-mmc, I would expect that the metabolites will be the betahydroxy compound (paramethyl ephedrine) the N-demethylated betahydroxy compound (paramethylnorephedrine) more on these later...
> and to a lesser extent the metabolites from P450 oxidation of the 4-methyl position;- the hydroxymethyl (benzyl alcohol) and the carboxylic acid this seems more common with the more lipophillic cathinones. all water soluble and so elimination is going to be renal, with limited amounts in other fluids.
> 
> I think that the metabolites rather than the drug itself will provide the answer to the toxicity.
> the betahydroxy compounds are almost certainly the primary metabolites of mephedrone, and these are known compounds with toxicity data:
> ed betahydroxy compound (paramethylnorephedrine) more on these later...
> and to a lesser extent the metabolites from P450 oxidation of the 4-methyl position;- the hydroxymethyl (benzyl alcohol) and the carboxylic acid. all water soluble and so elimination is going to be renal, with limited amounts in other fluids.
> 
> I think that the metabolites rather than the drug itself will provide the answer to the toxicity.
> the betahydroxy compounds are almost certainly the primary metabolites of mephedrone, and these are known compounds with toxicity data:
> 
> the primary metabolite paramethyl ephedrine is compound II in the paper below and is 3.4x more toxic than ephedrine in guinea pigs or 2.27 x more toxic than ephedrine in rabbits
> 
> AMINO-ALCOHOLS. II. HOMOLOGS AND ANALOGS OF PHENYLPROPANOLAMINE
> Walter H. Hartung, James C. Munch, W. Allan Deckert, Frank Crossley
> J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1930, 52 (8), pp 3317–3322
> DOI: 10.1021/ja01371a046
> 
> asuming that this metabolite s the primary metabolite,
> working from the sc guinea pig LD50 of 175mg/kg using the standard conversion of divide mg/kg by 4 to go from guinea pig to human gives 44mg/kg for this metabolite as the LD50 for humans. an estimate of around 3.3 g for 75kg body weight. people with idiosyncratic metabolism or are taking caffeine as well will die at lower doses.
> 
> we know that vanilla cathinone has central half life of 1.5 hrs or so, and that the beta hydroxy compound cathine has a much longer half life 5 hrs or so , extrapolating this to 4-mmc would seem to suggest that repeated redosing of 4-mmc raises the levels of the betahydroxy metabolite, even though plasma levels of 4-mmc do not significantly rise above the initial peak. the longer the redosing continues the more this metabolite accumulates.
> 
> 4-mmc is also a chiral molecule, unlike ordinary methcathinone it is a mixture of enantiomers, as it is made from 4-methylpropiophenone rather than a chiral precusor. with other cathinones both enantiomers have cardiac activity but only one has significant mental effects. the other enantiomer in 4-mmc is not contributing to the central effects but it is causing cardiovascular effects.
> 
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1884326
> 
> people are taking grams of a drug that metabolises to an ephedrine like compound, a compound that is considerably more toxic than ephedrine in animal models and a metabolite which likely has a much longer half life than 4-mmc, and we wonder why there are problems. the interesting thing is not that there are problems is that they are relatively infequent.
> 
> the vendors should have pulled this stuff when adverse effects were first apparent, but they don't give a fuck as long as the money rolls in.
> 
> they should also do their homework properly, I got all this with an hour of googling.
> I should be a due diligence consultant, my standard rate is 2K USD per day
> 
> please be careful with this stuff, used in moderation it is probably reasonably safe perhaps no worse than methcathinone itself.



repost of earlier post, not new


----------



## Rectify

*The human body's detoxification metabolic pathways oxidize toxins, not reduce them.*  Therefore, 4-methyl(pseudo)ephedrine from mephrone has slim to no chance of being a metabolite in this instance.


----------



## nuke

Cathinone is reduced to both (-)-norephedrine and (-)-norpseudoephedrine in plants and in mammals by stereospecific keto-reductions, which makes sense because they're more polar and therefore more easily excreted.  I would wager mucho on a beta-hydroxylated 4-MMC metabolite.  I mean, it's even called (-)-cathinone reductase, the enzyme that executes the reaction in khat.

The opposite reaction, the oxidation of the alcohol to the ketone, has pretty much no chance of happening and indeed doesn't happen if you look at metabolic data in mammals.


----------



## Rectify

That's interesting to hear and also a bit odd.

Most metabolic chemical transformations involve oxidation (chemically burning) of the drug.

You're also right that benzylic oxidation in vivo certainly doesn't occur with ephedrine et al.


----------



## nuke

It's possibly good news, but the problem is that the compound wasn't evaluated for DA/NE neuron neurotoxicity as well.  Both cathinone and amphetamine are neurotoxic to dopamine neurons in high enough doses.



> Drug Alcohol Depend. 1982 Aug;9(4):279-84.
> Neurochemical similarities between d,l-cathinone and d-amphetamine.
> Wagner GC, Preston K, Ricaurte GA, Schuster CR, Seiden LS.
> 
> Cathinone, the principal alkaloid of Khat, was compared to the psychomotor stimulant d-amphetamine on a number of neurochemical measures. Like d-amphetamine, d,l-cathinone released and blocked the uptake of tritiated dopamine (DA) in synaptosomal preparations. In addition, repeated high doses of d,l-cathinone produced long-lasting DA depletions in various rat brain regions and decreased the number of synaptosomal DA uptake sites in a manner similar to that seen after repeated d-amphetamine administration. Importantly, this DA neurotoxic effect of d,l-cathinone, like that of d-amphetamine, is selective since regional brain levels of norepinephrine (NE) or serotonin (5-HT) are not altered on a long-term basis by repeated administration of d,l-cathinone. These findings are discussed with reference to the current practice of Khat leaf chewing by people in north-eastern Africa.



However when you n-methylate them to become methcathinone and methamphetamine, the drugs become both potent dopaminergic and serotonergic neurotoxins.  It's thought that the secondary amine facilitates greater release of monoamines while enhancing the potency of serotonin release.

The possibility thus remains that the drug could still be toxic -- but we'll have to wait and see for some actual scientific results on the compound itself.  Until then, caveat emptor.


----------



## hugo24

PMA no serotonin depleter either,good I can take massive amounts now


----------



## MeDieViL

hugo24 said:


> PMA no serotonin depleter either,good I can take massive amounts now



We all know why PMA is dangerous, mephedrone is no MAOI so its relevant wheter its a neurotoxin or not. And yeah the biggest issue with meph is the vasoconstriction anyway wich could probebly be avoided by keeping the doses around 300mg.

If it turns out not to cause serotonin depletion, it may be an allright drug in low doses.


----------



## 4-OH

nuke said:


> The possibility thus remains that the drug could still be toxic -- but we'll have to wait and see for some actual scientific results on the compound itself.  Until then, caveat emptor.



So with the current evidence on both sides of the argument, what would your current hypothesis be? Do you feel less or more worried?


----------



## noodle1

MeDieViL said:


> We all know why PMA is dangerous, mephedrone is no MAOI so its relevant wheter its a neurotoxin or not. And yeah the biggest issue with meph is the vasoconstriction anyway wich could probebly be avoided by keeping the doses around 300mg.
> 
> If it turns out not to cause serotonin depletion, it may be an allright drug in low doses.



Firstly, this thing has suddenly gotten VERY big.  The shear volume of sites selling compared to a year ago.  If there are short term toxicity problems, unfortunately, I expect we'll here about them  by 2nd Jan 2010 from the major news networks.
Obviously the longer term issues....

But with regard to the vasoconstriction side of things.  I've found that a 500mg of L-arginine, 250mg of Ginkgo Biloba (leaf based tablet, not the 24mg expensive stuff), 1 multi-vit + 250mg of Trans-Resveratrol basically remove this problem. 

The next morning requires a repeat of the above and avoidance of strenuous physical activity, but that's just an added bonus 

I don't take too much Ginkgo, dilation of the vessels is all well and good, but too much, combined with increase bp, I guess that could lead to some un-intended problems.

Does anyone thing the above has mileage, or is my middle name placebo (or worse?).


----------



## nuke

My hypothesis is that I don't know, there's not enough evidence.  I'm slightly less worried, but definitely wouldn't eat it.


----------



## MeDieViL

nuke said:


> My hypothesis is that I don't know, there's not enough evidence.  I'm slightly less worried, but definitely wouldn't eat it.



It would probebly cause serotonin depletion because methcathinone is a known neurotoxic compound, i would bet it isnt as toxic tough, but maybe somewhere around the same level as MDMA.

If this stuff didnt metabolize in an ephedrine like compound there wouldnt have been all those negative reports and ppl wouldnt be as hysterical about it.


----------



## 7zark7

noodle1 said:


> But with regard to the vasoconstriction side of things.  I've found that a 500mg of L-arginine, 250mg of Ginkgo Biloba (leaf based tablet, not the 24mg expensive stuff), 1 multi-vit + 250mg of Trans-Resveratrol basically remove this problem.
> 
> The next morning requires a repeat of the above and avoidance of strenuous physical activity, but that's just an added bonus



I was wondering about using Ginko to counter the vasoconstriction. I have a bottle of them so I will do some investigating the next time I use meph.

...but the main thing to counter it I have found, and it may seem like I am stating the obvious here, is to drink plenty of fluids and keep your self hydrated - before, during and after. Doing that seems to have a huge benefit over not doing it.


----------



## MUSHET

I tried Mephedrone for the first time on Saturday morning (4am-7am), we split a gram between three of us over the course of a few hours. I really enjoyed the high, it is definitely better than any pills that I've had in the UK for years, which seem to be extremely shit at the moment, and who knows when they will get any better.

After we finished the gram we drank alcohol for a fair time, I didn't try and get to sleep until 6pm Saturday night, I fell asleep as soon as my head hit the pillow and didn't wake until 7am Sunday, dosed for a few hours and got up around 10am. I felt great, better than a hangover, probably due to so much sleep though, but no emotional shit associated with MDMA. I had a nice Sunday evening and feel fine at work today.

Now, I must admit, reading all the posts on here sound like horror stories, but most of them are when people are taking it everyday, or going on 3 day binges. Splitting a gram between me, my wife and a mate, after clubbing, was great. We only had a gram, and yes, if we had more we would probably have taken it. But we didn't, and we were in no fit state after drinking, pill popping and snorting meph to leave the house to get more.

Therefore, if I take it again, I will always buy a supply that will only last for a short period of time. Too much sounds like a bad idea, just like any drug.


----------



## vecktor

*mephedrone metabolism data*

Mephedrone metabolism.

looks like my earlier prediction of the paramethyl ephedrine metabolite is correct, although it also makes paramethyl norephedrine by N-demethylation.

from what I am hearing mephedrone users should expect more bad news over the following months.

please use this stuff in strict moderation if you must use it, if you can't moderate your consumption don't take it at all. It is not looking good at the moment.

Also can wemake an effort to keep the signal to noise higher on this thread. Don't post inane trip reports here, post them in trip reports. I suggest that any future off topic trip reports will be deleted 

vecktor





> O45. Metabolism of the new designer drug mephedrone
> and toxicological detection of the beta keto designer drugs
> mephedrone, butylone and methylone in urine
> M.R. Meyer, F.T. Peters, H.H. Maurer
> Department of Experimental and Clinical Toxicology, Saarland University,
> D-66421 Homburg (Saar), Germany
> 
> Introduction: Beta keto (bk) designer drugs are a new class of drugs of
> abuse. In contrast to mephedrone (2-methylamino-1-p-tolylpropane-1-one),
> the metabolism of butylone (2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)
> butan-1-one, bk-MBDB) and methylone (3,4-methylenedioxymethcathinone,
> bk-MDMA) has already been investigated. So far, these designer drugs have
> not yet been included in our systematic toxicological analysis (STA).
> 
> Aim: The first aim of the presented work was to study the metabolism of
> mephedrone and to incorporate all of the above-mentioned bk-designer drugs
> into our STA. The second aim was to check for suitability of our rat model
> by comparing incurred rat urine samples with human urine samples from
> mephedrone and butylone users.
> 
> Methods: For the metabolism study, urine samples from male Wistar rats
> (20 mg/kg BW) were extracted (liquid-liquid or Isolute Confirm HCX
> cartridges) after enzymatic cleavage of conjugates. After extraction and
> acetylation, the metabolites were separated and identified by GC–MS in
> the electron ionisation and in the positive chemical ionisation mode. For
> toxicological detection, a common users dose corresponding to 1 mg/kg
> BW were administered to rats and urine was collected over a 24 h period.
> Human urine submitted to our laboratory for toxicological analysis was
> collected approximately 6 hours after intake of an unknown amount of
> butylone and mephedrone. The rat and human urine samples were analyzed
> using our STA based on an acid hydrolysis followed by liquid-liquid
> extraction, acetylation and analysis via full-scan GC-MS. Finally, the
> results from the metabolism and screening studies in rats were compared
> to those obtained from the patients’ urine to verify the suitability of the
> used rat model.
> 
> Results: *Analysis of the rat and human samples revealed the following
> main metabolic steps for mephedrone: N-demethylation to the primary
> amine, reduction of the keto moiety to the respective alcohol and oxidation
> of the tolyl moiety to the corresponding alcohols and carboxylic acids. The
> metabolites of butylone and mephedrone detected in rat urine could also be
> found in human urine samples. Us*ing our STA, the parent compounds and
> N-demethyl metabolites could be detected in rat urine after a common user’s
> dose as well as in the patients’ urine samples in the case of mephedrone and
> butylone.
> 
> Conclusion: Besides the elucidation of the metabolism of the new designer
> drug mephedrone, we were able to show, that our STA was suitable to proof
> S1-23
> 
> Ann Toxicol Anal. 2009; 21(S1) Abstracts
> an intake of at least butylone and/or mephedrone in human urine. These
> examples showed again that the used rat model was suitable to predict the
> qualitative metabolism and detectability of drugs in human urine.
> Keywords: designer drugs, butylone, mephedrone, methylone, metabolism



http://www.ata-journal.org/articles/ata/pdf/2009/02/ata2009s102.pdf


----------



## YaniCZka

sorry for a little off topic question - judging by the data above, is butylone safer / as bad / worse than mephedrone? I like to mix each of them with m1 so wonder what is better option. Thanks.


----------



## vecktor

YaniCZka said:


> sorry for a little off topic question - judging by the data above, is butylone safer / as bad / worse than mephedrone? I like to mix each of them with m1 so wonder what is better option. Thanks.



unknown


----------



## hugo24

At least the para-methyl group is also oxidised...


----------



## ColtDan

7zark7 said:


> I was wondering about using Ginko to counter the vasoconstriction. I have a bottle of them so I will do some investigating the next time I use meph.
> 
> ...but the main thing to counter it I have found, and it may seem like I am stating the obvious here, is to drink plenty of fluids and keep your self hydrated - before, during and after. Doing that seems to have a huge benefit over not doing it.



ive started taking ginko for the same reason. still got red hot hands a few times after a night on meph and booze, not sure if it helped or not tbh. sounds good for me though so i might buy another bottle


----------



## cegli

YaniCZka said:


> sorry for a little off topic question - judging by the data above, is butylone safer / as bad / worse than mephedrone? I like to mix each of them with m1 so wonder what is better option. Thanks.



Considering the fact that MBDB seems to be less toxic than MDMA, and there haven't been too many adverse reactions to bk-MDMA, you would think bk-MBDB would be safer than bk-MDMA.  Both of these seem to be much safer than Mephedrone (though that isn't saying much, meth and speed seem safer than mephedrone).

Vecktor is right though, we don't have scientific data on it, but I would bet a lot of money that bk-MBDB (butylone) is much safer.


----------



## Operation Atlas

cegli said:


> Considering the fact that MBDB seems to be less toxic than MDMA, and there haven't been too many adverse reactions to bk-MDMA, you would think bk-MBDB would be safer than bk-MDMA.  Both of these seem to be much safer than Mephedrone (though that isn't saying much, meth and speed seem safer than mephedrone).
> 
> Vecktor is right though, we don't have scientific data on it, but I would bet a lot of money that bk-MBDB (butylone) is much safer.



Butylone has almost nothing in common with mephedrone, as far as effects are concerned. Butylone is almost entirely an empathogen, and there's almost no euphoria and the stimulation is pretty mild.


----------



## letoureiffel?

*Toxic meph*

Pretty toxic

It's being formally tested now.

it is actually plant fertiliser in addition to khat

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/Police-warn-youngsters-of-heart.5865372.jp

miracle grow springs to mind

who knows.

some things are too good to be true.


----------



## Vader

^Actually, according to your source, it's a mixture of fertiliser and cathinone.


----------



## letoureiffel?

yes right you are.

cathinone according to wiki is a natural amphetamine found in the shrub - Catha edulis (Khat):

"Cathinone (β-ketoamphetamine) is a monoamine alkaloid found in the shrub Catha edulis (Khat) and is chemically similar to ephedrine, cathine and other amphetamines. Amphetamine induces the release of dopamine from striatal preparations that are prelabelled either with dopamine or its precursors, and it has been shown that cathinone also does this.[1] It is probably the main contributor to the stimulant effect of Catha edulis. Cathinone differs from many other amphetamines in that it has a ketone functional group. Other amphetamines that share this structure include the antidepressant bupropion and the stimulant methcathinone, among others."

Legally: "The sale of khat is legal in Israel (although synthetic cathinone is not), and also in Oman, in Yemen, in United Kingdom and in the Horn of Africa."

why do they mix it with plant fertilising agent then?>>>>?????????


----------



## MeDieViL

letoureiffel? said:


> yes right you are.
> 
> cathinone according to wiki is a natural amphetamine found in the shrub - Catha edulis (Khat):
> 
> "Cathinone (β-ketoamphetamine) is a monoamine alkaloid found in the shrub Catha edulis (Khat) and is chemically similar to ephedrine, cathine and other amphetamines. Amphetamine induces the release of dopamine from striatal preparations that are prelabelled either with dopamine or its precursors, and it has been shown that cathinone also does this.[1] It is probably the main contributor to the stimulant effect of Catha edulis. Cathinone differs from many other amphetamines in that it has a ketone functional group. Other amphetamines that share this structure include the antidepressant bupropion and the stimulant methcathinone, among others."
> 
> Legally: "The sale of khat is legal in Israel (although synthetic cathinone is not), and also in Oman, in Yemen, in United Kingdom and in the Horn of Africa."
> 
> why do they mix it with plant fertilising agent then?>>>>?????????



They dont mix it with plant fertilisers at all, and i sugges to stay away from that news site as either they try to be funny or either they are incredibly stupid.


----------



## Artificial Emotion

How can we let this happen in the media? Isn't there something we can do about this blatant misinformation.


----------



## letoureiffel?

*toxicology?*



Artificial Emotion said:


> How can we let this happen in the media? Isn't there something we can do about this blatant misinformation.



so it could be that the police have misconstrued the "not for human consumption" / plantfood pseudonym?

unless you make it/test it it's hard to be sure.

still i thought it was a wonderdrug. have had amazing times but a memory relapse from thurs. it brought out a very childlike part of my psyche. innerchild perhaps. only so much u can tap into that before you start thinking about meaning of life and such conundrums. 

they need to let bonafide and impartial scientists test it. However, down on the upside = it's classifed by the authorities. peace out.

p.s. i don't make a habit of reading tabloids! there's not that much media coverage and that came out last night


----------



## 7zark7

vecktor said:


> Also can we make an effort to keep the signal to noise higher on this thread. Don't post inane trip reports here, post them in trip reports. I suggest that any future off topic trip reports will be deleted



Good idea.


----------



## squid0

what scares me most about mephedrone is how even after suffering horrible paranoid delusions, chest pain, and testing positive for heart damage in A and E after a drone binge i still found justification to take it again. i now feel like im dealing with an addiction. as long as i can not physically see it i can stay away from it and thats how i like it. body and mind feel absolutely ravaged.
i also see so so many people actually loving this drug now that i would even go as far to say this is going to be to the UK what methamphetamine is to the US if not worse because its so easily avaliable (not illegal!) , cheap and has a young target audience! . i consider the two on the same level now (based on addictiveness, health problems and basically how it changes people physically and mentally).
after taking stupid amounts for 11 months now ( up tp 10g to myself in a weekend, 400mg bombs of crystal drone every half hour) i urge people to stay away. i started off taking tiny amounts and getting smashed but that has led to an addiction and super-fiending aswell as paranoia and personality change.

i stay away now, hate the stuff.

ps im not trying to look for sympathy im dealing with this problem successfully (staying off sesh in general!), im trying to make new users see that at first it does seem like a wonder drug. it did to me but it took a while before the bad side came out and by then i had loved it too much.


----------



## NedValentino

i know someone that takes ADD meds and she reports that after a good day of mephedrone, she has a few days during which she needs 2x her ADD meds (Amphet) augmented with caffeine to get the same effectiveness.  

She had also been on an SSRI.  she enjoyed meph while on the SSRI, but did not get the 'e' feeling until she was off it for a week or so.  also, the effect on her ADD meds was only noticeable after coming off her SSRI.  

Is it possible the SSRI has a prophylactic effect similar to what it has to MDMA? (taking an SSRI on the tail end of MDMA use is often cited as a way to minimize problems, as i recall)

personally, i am starting to feel the stuff is not worth the fun, unless you have great self-control and can take it in very limited amounts on a very infrequent basis.  I certainly don't fall into that category...


----------



## NedValentino

also wondering:  anyone with a fairly intellectually challenging job or study routine that they have maintained in conjunction with somewhat regular meph use?  if so, i would be interested to hear about any noticeable impact on mental performance.. to put in context, a long time ago, i did a lot of k, after a month or so of using it i found i had difficulty concentrating and lost my ability to speak and write quickly and articulately (or the ability was diminished).. this got worse with time.  fortunately, as far as i can tell, everything returned in time.

anyone finding themselves struggling to find that word, etc?


----------



## fastandbulbous

^ That effect see,s unique to ketamine in my experience as other dissociates such as PCP & the 3 methoxy derivative didn't fuck my speech & motor skills anything like what ketamine did. With ket I was well on the way to becoming a mute due to dimishing vocabulary!


----------



## Operation Atlas

I started on an SSRI (Citalopram) about three months ago, and meph wasn't considerably different after I started. I still enjoy the substance quite a bit, but I am tiring of insufflation.

I have a fairly mentally demanding day job (web developer) and after a good meph binge I'm a bit slow and unmotivated. I feel like I have a head cold, and have a kind of fog over me. Some of this could be due to the ROA (nasal congestion -> nasal infection), due to lack of sleep, or due to the actual "hangover' effects of the drugs. My guess is that it is a combination of the three.

Regardless, it isn't significant enough that my coworkers or boss have noticed, and my output isn't significantly damaged as a result.

P.S. Using a neti pot to do nasal irrigation after insufflating mephedrone is highly suggested.


----------



## hugo24

squid0 said:


> what scares me most about mephedrone is how even after suffering horrible paranoid delusions, chest pain, and testing positive for heart damage in A and E after a drone binge i still found justification to take it again. i now feel like im dealing with an addiction.



More precise,this sounds like self-destruction.


----------



## Artificial Emotion

squid0, I'm really worried about you. Anyone who continues to use such a destructive drug after it having damaged their heart is in desperate need of help.


----------



## letoureiffel?

Yes i agree with the last posts this is a worrying trail of thought Squid0

You've identified you have an issue. If you don't think you can take a step back then talk to your doc. They cannot squeal on you. I'm actually partial to the view that meow can activate the fight or flight response and obviously, it puts an enormous strain on the old ticker. 

But i think the human body can recover from such things, so the important thing is not to dwell and to instead really evaluate where the fun lies and your personal alternatives. *Mostly though, i think one thing the body cannot cope with, is losing a night's sleep, which taking Miaow/mkat/plantfood ultimately leads to.*

Long term effects = unknown. but palpitations, excessive worrying and tingly skin all point to overexertion. rest is best. remember, no rest for the wicked  

peace & love


----------



## fastandbulbous

> what scares me most about mephedrone is how even after suffering horrible paranoid delusions, chest pain, and testing positive for heart damage in A and E after a drone binge i still found justification to take it again. i now feel like im dealing with an addiction.




For anybody who thinks mephedrone isn't addictive (it is psychologically very addictive)


----------



## letoureiffel?

*Addiction & Toxicology*



fastandbulbous said:


> For anybody who thinks mephedrone isn't addictive (it is psychologically very addictive)



"in general, the faster a drug has its euphoric effect on the brain, the higher the potential for *addiction and toxicity*. Rapid onset of euphoria or the "rush" leads to immediate gratification and provides a powerful stimulus for readministration of the drug to maintain the euphoria or "high". Most often, the more rapid the onset of actuation*, the shorter the duration, so that more frequent administration is required."

*actuation meaning _put into action_, or in this case, stimulation

from: P.110 of Addictions: a comprehensive guidebook, by Barbara S. McCrady, Elizabeth E. Epstein


----------



## Jamshyd

^ Hm, I guess then all these alcoholics dying left and right aren't addicted, after all.


----------



## letoureiffel?

don't really understand your post, Jamshyd? what i can deduce from the above source is that it's the stimulus of gratification that makes a substance addictive, addiction will then lead to tolerance which ensures the strength of the [physical and mental] addiction . not sure that you can get "high" or "euphoric" from alcohol, but having said that i've seen people in different worlds before!! 

if anyone can explain toxicology properly i would be very much obliged.


----------



## Cloudy

I've read somewhere that ethanol has small effect on the GABA receptors which does induce some euphoria.


----------



## BLUENIGHT

This is not a trip report its more for medical reasons
Just wanted  to share some stats + something i did out of curiousity.

Stats:
5'8"  150lb 18% fat in my early 20s
i used to be much lower fat and used to do alot of excersise in the past (weight lifting and cardio) but havent done this much for the past 2 years due to elbow injury so i am not muscular anymore and have some flabs now.. Stopped drinking completely 1 year ago because it used to give me elevated pulse/bp even when sober even when i stopped binging and drank in moderation. When i stopped drinking my bp went back to normal and my resting pulse got lower within 6 months.

Experience: With stims? Used some ephedrine/caffiene in the past mephedrone+/methylone aswell

with others:DXM, shrooms, LSA, skunk, poppers, jwh018, salvia, codeine, lyrica, subutex


Last time i did any (before this report) was 4 days ago i had 200mg of methylone x4 +  275mg of mephedrone x1 over 10h. Found the last 3 redoses pointless not much effect apart from stimulant.


Ok its been 4 days since then and im home alone again (in my parents mansion!!!), im gonna see if i can have a relaxed meph buzz.


Before i start, my resting BP:
(4 days clean off evrything apart from jwh-018+/skunk)
111/71
pulse=63


After i check BP i administer 200mg+water (white fine and crystally batch, using a 0.001g scale)
11.07am

+20min
check bp again (sitting, no movement)
129/80
85p

+45 (body orgasming) peaking

machine reads
151/96
p=83


+1.5h coming down still feel good. so im going to take another 50mg, if it doesnt get me im not going to bother with more. going to call it a day now.

no activity. sitting all the way. I approached this buzz with a relaxed attitude, looks like it made my buzz relaxed (hardly any energy) and only a litle jaw clench



it is now +1.6hr resting bp is

149/94

pulse=71


taking some arginine now to lower the bp.

Sorry if it makes no sense i wrote it buzzing. Oh and by the way i diddnt drink much water on this buzz. (im lyin down)


it seems that the dangerous thing about meph is that the physiological effects linger much longer (2-3 days even) than the mental effects. The body load seems to accumulate when redosing while the mental effects do not and sometimes even begin to diminish rendering further redosing futile and even very detrimental to health. The problem is that no one knows if their meph is really pure or even mephedrone at all, and who knows if there are byproducts in certain batches that have actually caused these weird side effects. 

Id say this stuff aint so bad if max dose is kept below 500mg (split obviously) and you do it every week or 2 apart at least utilizing multivitamins+sugary electrolyte water+arginine. Going to do another heart assesment in exactly 1 week with methylone or mephedrone again, mabye a bigger initial dose, or a mix of both. I dont want to loose the magic of these chems so im gonna conserve (i have very strong will)


----------



## Jamshyd

letoureiffel? said:


> don't really understand your post, Jamshyd? what i can deduce from the above source is that it's the stimulus of gratification that makes a substance addictive, addiction will then lead to tolerance which ensures the strength of the [physical and mental] addiction . not sure that you can get "high" or "euphoric" from alcohol, but having said that i've seen people in different worlds before!!
> 
> if anyone can explain toxicology properly i would be very much obliged.


First of all, simple addiction is more in the realm of pharmacology than it is in toxicology (the latter of which specifically deals with the study of organic damage brought on by the pharmacological action of substances).

Second, what you posted suggest that you think a substance can only be addictive if it offers a "rush". This is simply untrue.

Alcohol does not offer a rush, and yet it is a very, very addictive substance, both mentally and physically.


----------



## ebola?

mmm...many find insufflated meph' as compulsive as vaporized meth-amp.
Pretty fucking addictive, I'd say.


----------



## Josama

Meph is psychologically very addicting, having gotten 4 250 mg caps, I wasted them on 3 weekends straight.

On the beginning of the week I still thouht "man this is really bad for me" but at the end of the week I was like "man this weekend will be great again"

Was only able to stop because I stayed at home for a month, but still reordered some knowing that it was bad, forunately my mother found out and took it away from me(which wasn't easy,she needed to talk about 30 min to me before I let go of it, and while I felt first depressed when letting it go, i was somehow relieved)

Also it isn't still clear yet if meph is physically addictive or not, there seems to be some physical WDS. After stopping using it(elictric currents running through your body and having your muscles twitch on it's own when being calm,not unpleasent but scary to think it's a physically WDS)

The batch is got was fine crystally powder but had that digusting smell to it, my mother send it to the laboratory for analysis, so will await the results and post them here.


----------



## letoureiffel?

I found it very moreish.....

But I would steer clear of it if you have asthma. I believe it has affected mine. Whether or not it is due to anxiety, or if it has damaged my airways I can't be sure. But it feels like a bit of both! I see people around me getting more and more into it. I think to myself, slow down, you're exhausted! You could have a nice honeymoon. Looking forward to the ^ analysis. It definately causes agitation and nervous system FX. However, overcompensating with ye olde alcomohol now :-? 

x


----------



## 7zark7

ebola? said:


> mmm...many find insufflated meph' as compulsive as vaporized meth-amp.
> Pretty fucking addictive, I'd say.



Who are these "many"?


----------



## vecktor

7zark7 said:


> Who are these "many"?



drooling meph zombies obviously


----------



## ebola?

One guy's anecdote, fine! X| 
But seriously...does it not fit?


----------



## wilsonej30

*Small Usage*

I came to this thread hoping to find peoples' opinions on the toxicity of very rare use (i.e. 1 g every 2-3 months) which is all I do. It seems no one else does this small of an amount though? If anyone does, I would love to hear your opinions on long term (i.e. years from now) effects (i am aware that they are largely unknown).   

To give more details - each time I do mephedrone, I snort about 1/6 of a gram (I weigh 180 pounds). Also, once I took 100mg of 5-HTP first to see if there was a difference, seemed pointless to do though, maybe the high lasted a bit longer. but  I stick to snorted doses of 1/6 g every 3 weeks or so without the 5-htp, that's all. Would keeping up a habit like this for a few years effect me significantly ten, twenty years later? I know that's unknown, but just wondering your opinions. Thank you.


----------



## fastandbulbous

Has anyone suffered an insensitivity to psychedelics or stimulants after long term use of mephedrone?


----------



## letoureiffel?

wilsonej30 said:


> I came to this thread hoping to find peoples' opinions on the toxicity of very rare use (i.e. 1 g every 2-3 months) which is all I do. It seems no one else does this small of an amount though? If anyone does, I would love to hear your opinions on long term (i.e. years from now) effects (i am aware that they are largely unknown).
> 
> To give more details - each time I do mephedrone, I snort about 1/6 of a gram (I weigh 180 pounds). Also, once I took 100mg of 5-HTP first to see if there was a difference, seemed pointless to do though, maybe the high lasted a bit longer. but  I stick to snorted doses of 1/6 g every 3 weeks or so without the 5-htp, that's all. Would keeping up a habit like this for a few years effect me significantly ten, twenty years later? I know that's unknown, but just wondering your opinions. Thank you.



ive never done more than 1 gram to myself in a weekend, and have tried it every other weekend since the summer...... but i learnt that you shouldn't bosh it up your nose, you need to ingest it through swallowing or it messes with your mucus levels and inflames the septum. A friend of mine looked like he had a cig burn below his nose. On inspection, as it wasn't gooey :S it appeared to be a chemical burn.


----------



## fastandbulbous

MeDieViL said:


> We all know why PMA is dangerous, mephedrone is no MAOI so its relevant wheter its a neurotoxin or not. And yeah the biggest issue with meph is the vasoconstriction anyway wich could probebly be avoided by keeping the doses around 300mg.
> 
> If it turns out not to cause serotonin depletion, it may be an allright drug in low doses.




Do we, it's only a substrate competetive inhibitor a la amphetamine etc ie not something to get so concerned about. The main problems with PMA are due to ut's cardiovascular & temp control effects.

Think you're confusing it with 4-MTA (the sulphur analog of PMA), which is well dodgy




> Alcohol does not offer a rush, and yet it is a very, very addictive substance, both mentally and physically.




It has a very rapid onset, hence it's rapid action that leads to compulsive redosing


----------



## MeDieViL

fastandbulbous said:


> Has anyone suffered an insensitivity to psychedelics or stimulants after long term use of mephedrone?



A few ppl have reported to have lost the magic to MDMA because of mephedrone use, someone else even reported being unable to feel the effects of stimulants, psychedelics and MDMA even 2 weeks after he stopped using mephedrone.

If you have a massive tolerance to MDMA, stimulants or anything else you will get blasted by meph, but seems like meph builds a very bad tolerance to those substances wich isnt a very good thing.

I'm also interested in more experiences tough.

Yeah could be i've mixed those up, i only vaguely investigated those substances in the past.


----------



## Vader

there's a few people reporting insensitivity to MDMA, amphetamine and mushrooms in the EADD meph megathread.


----------



## MeDieViL

How much research has actually been done on 4 methyl amphetamine? According to wikipedia its less toxic then 4-chloroamphetamine but more so then the fluor compound. I have no idea where that info comes from?

Yet someone posted a study here showing that it wasnt toxic to serotogenic neurons. But from the experiences with this chemical it would seem to be a neurotoxin. (Look up the thread on this substance).


----------



## fastandbulbous

Less toxic than 4-chloroamphetamine isn't a declaration of safety as 4-chloroamphetamine is a known neurotoxin in primates (which we are, lest you forget!) - it destroys serotonogic neurones


----------



## MeDieViL

fastandbulbous said:


> Less toxic than 4-chloroamphetamine isn't a declaration of safety as 4-chloroamphetamine is a known neurotoxin in primates (which we are, lest you forget!) - it destroys serotonogic neurones



Yes, i'm aware of that, thats why i would like to see the study (if it exists) were that info is based on. The reports i heared of russia also seem to point to neurotoxiticy (altough mephedrone anecdotally doesnt seem to cause such long term aftereffects as reported with 4 methyl amphetamine).

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=419580&highlight=4-methylamphetamine

But then we also have this study:


> p-Bromoamphetamine 27 and p-bromomethamphetamine 2R, 29 lower brain
> serotonin to an extent comparable to the reduction caused by the corresponding
> p-chloro compounds. pFluoroamphetamine decreases serotonin levels, but its
> effects do not persist to the same degree as those of p-CA.27s 30 Other parasubstituted
> amphetamines have less activity (trifluoromethyl, phenoxy) or no
> activity (methyl, methoxy ) as serotonin depletors.20
> Norfenfluramine is an analog of p-CA that bears an m-trifluoromethyl substituent
> instead of a p-chloro substituent on the ring. Norfenfluramine and
> fenfluramine (the N-ethyl compound) lower serotonin in rat brain for a very
> long time, though they are slightly less active than p-CA.3*-34 Although Costa
> and Revuelta 32 have reported that norfenfluramine increases serotonin turnover
> instead of decreasing it, as p-CA does, we find that norfenfluramine causes a
> rapid reduction of tryptophan hydroxylase accompanying the decline in serotonin,
> just as p-CA does (TABL3E) . Sanders-Bush et al. have reported shortand
> long-term depletion of serotonin and tryptophan hydroxylase in rat brain
> after injection of fenfluramine.'? In general, the actions of norfenfluramine and
> fenfluramine on brain serotonin neurons may be very similar to those of p-CA
> and other chlorinated amphetamines.


----------



## n3ak

Nice to see the media hype has worked and panicked many people into not buying any mephedrone


----------



## Bob Loblaw

Re-pasta, but noteworthy IMHO



Bob Loblaw said:


> I think this drug FUCKED my tolerance to other serotonergic things.
> 
> I ate 3.5g of potent shrooms... barely a +
> Snorted 125mg of potent Methamp... not even increased HR or dilated pupils
> Railed 100mg of top-quality MDMA and did a 60mg bomb... not shit
> I can snort 20mg Adderall and fall asleep right afterward
> I can snort 60mg and barely feel it
> 
> These occurrences have all happened either as I was using Meph regularly or 1-2 weeks after my last dose.  Hopefully in a month or two I'll be back to normal
> 
> 
> FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU--





Bob Loblaw said:


> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU--
> 
> Not even goddamn dopaminergic goodies work >___<
> I barely feel really good blow ;__;
> 
> So, 3 weeks since my last dose, I'm going to start a regimen of:
> 
> 100mg 2x daily 5-HTP (3 weeks)
> l-Tyrosine (2 weeks)
> Multivitamin (3 weeks)
> 
> We'll see how this pans out...
> I am SO sick of only being able to get high on opiates and JWH and Ketamine ;______;
> 
> 
> ashdjl;ashkl;djaskl;jdkl;jfffo983254890-7*()^&*)_&90-845943jkljraskldjkasl;jd
> asjl;dhaskl;djhaskl;djHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHkl'asjhdkl;ashd
> rhghgrhgrhgrh




Also, my friends have consumed the exact same drugs (same time, same suppliers) as I have, and one couldn't feel LSD, and another couldn't feel the mushrooms.  Only when we had been doing Meph had we been unaffected.


----------



## letoureiffel?

*Media*



n3ak said:


> Nice to see the media hype has worked and panicked many people into not buying any mephedrone



can't really infer what your view is. Though that is your right to know. Someone has also stated that "mephedrone is for amateurs".

While I think it's easy for some people to think that the people that have died were inexperienced like Leah Betts, for others it was a bit of a wake-up call and I can sense a recovery process among others.

As long as your lifestyle doesn't interfere with your ambition, then noone has any right to criticise.


----------



## nuke

MeDieViL said:


> But then we also have this study:



What I really want too is that referenced study, since it may have simply been at the doses given.  It's known that p-Methylamphetamine is almost 1/5th to 1/10th as potent as amphetamine, so if you're using 1mg/kg or 2mg/kg, you may not approach toxicity.  But, I can't seem to find it online.



> Also, my friends have consumed the exact same drugs (same time, same suppliers) as I have, and one couldn't feel LSD, and another couldn't feel the mushrooms. Only when we had been doing Meph had we been unaffected.


That would be some weird neurotoxicity, even the people I've known with severe 5HT damage from meth or MDMA still respond to psychedelics.  Amphetamine does not generally get them high though, or provides a kind of lackluster caffeine-like high.


----------



## lineartransform

Bob Loblaw said:


> Re-pasta, but noteworthy IMHO
> 
> Also, my friends have consumed the exact same drugs (same time, same suppliers) as I have, and one couldn't feel LSD, and another couldn't feel the mushrooms.  Only when we had been doing Meph had we been unaffected.



Bob - that's odd. When I was using mephedrone I would go through 2-3 grams (tops of 400mg a sitting) over a few weeks, and at the end of those weeks I would trip (some strange rationalization about the healing power of psychedelics, I can't give you a better reason than that). A 15mg dose of 2C-I that I would normally barely get visuals from felt more like 25mg, DMT breakthroughs became very easy... 

wierd.


----------



## 7zark7

Bob Loblaw said:


> Also, my friends have consumed the exact same drugs (same time, same suppliers) as I have, and one couldn't feel LSD, and another couldn't feel the mushrooms.  Only when we had been doing Meph had we been unaffected.



Hmmm... both acid and shrooms can be a bit weird at times. Set and setting can have both an enhancing and diminishing effect on psychedelics like these.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

Yes, but when you have mushrooms grown by professionals (growers and hippies- they fungus was cultivated with love and positive energy), the seller( and very honest friend) said _after_ we purchased, that batch was the second most potent he's tried.  And that's really saying something.  He recommended 2g and another seasoned tripper (much mush experience) said don't start with more than 2.5g.  I've taken 1.75g and then an hour later 1.75g of normal mushrooms and tripped MUCH harder than this.

Also the night I was doing meth, I did 125mg of quality product (dose recommended by neutral friends was 75-100mg) and got nothing.  I then busted out the Meph and got high proper.

Just this evening I tried more coke and certainly felt something, though I was dosing rather high, and with potent product.


----------



## letoureiffel?

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/Police-warn-youngsters-of-heart.5865372.jp

i know this is that suspicious tabloid article..... but read the readers' views underneath, they're really funny, especially the last post in response to that ignoramus's comment about bacon butties !!


----------



## fastandbulbous

n3ak said:


> Nice to see the media hype has worked and panicked many people into not buying any mephedrone





It's not media hype - just look at the reports on BL of hideous after effects of mephedrone (as you've only one post, some might think you're a vendor trying to play down meph toxicity  )


----------



## letoureiffel?

Sometimes vendors have the least first hand experience, sometimes the most. this has to be one of the most pop highs available from a head shop. I think the only tests (excluding any historical records, if in existence) people did for Khat was basically the human guineapig. it was fun till i fell off the wheel...


----------



## ColtDan

"hantry,
29/11/2009 17:04:07
Anyone who is stupid enough to take drugs of any discription deserves all he or she gets.
My own downfall is Bacon Butties, I dont need to mug old ladies for my kicks"

what a fucking idiot.


----------



## letoureiffel?

ColtDan said:


> "hantry,
> 29/11/2009 17:04:07
> Anyone who is stupid enough to take drugs of any discription deserves all he or she gets.
> My own downfall is Bacon Butties, I dont need to mug old ladies for my kicks"
> 
> what a fucking idiot.



yeah what an ignorant gooner. he obviously just sits in drinking yorkshire tea with his slippers on looking out the window at either a field or some sort of factory, while his wife potters about making sure his pie and gravy's on the table by 5.30 on the dot... and then on saturday he'll have his ba'on buttie and feel dead indulgent.  8) oh yeah with his copy of the star open at page 3.

The readers of that article mentioned chewable pure khat. i would imagine this would be equally harmful to people that already suffer adverse effects, and it notes that its use is common among certain cultures. It might be a bit like chewing tabacco, i.e. mildly stimulating, though quite irritating in the mouth, or like paan, which when tried in its native habitat (i.e. India) is only edible by the locals due to the pollution that they are accustomed to.

really want to know what the MKat tests discover. Hopefully it won't just be in a chemical jargon and therefore not really groundbreaking.


----------



## letoureiffel?

This may be a long shot... but i wonder if it is possible that the reason some people have had adverse and fatal effects was actually because they suffered from Guillain Barre Syndrome?

http://www.nowpublic.com/health/guillain-barre-syndrome-panic-factor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain–Barré_syndrome


----------



## fastandbulbous

ColtDan said:


> "hantry,
> 29/11/2009 17:04:07
> Anyone who is stupid enough to take drugs of any discription deserves all he or she gets.
> My own downfall is Bacon Butties, I dont need to mug old ladies for my kicks"
> 
> what a fucking idiot.



Idiot 1st class

_I don't need to mug old ladies for my kicks_ (but I do it anyway) 

Just reading between the lines that he's a hideous beer monster


----------



## 7zark7

fastandbulbous said:


> Idiot 1st class
> 
> _I don't need to mug old ladies for my kicks_ (but I do it anyway)
> 
> Just reading between the lines that he's a hideous beer monster



...who beats his wife.


----------



## letoureiffel?

Also not to be a prang-face but i know peeps who have had problems in their mouth - on their tongues and gums feeling sore;

be careful phet use does not lead to gingivitis i.e. worst case scenario your gums become loose from your teeth.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/amphetamines_health.shtml

i'm allowed to talk of this as this is a toxicity thread/ bonjela all the way. sources not verified but found by searches.


----------



## letoureiffel?

letoureiffel? said:


> Also not to be a prang-face but i know peeps who have had problems in their mouth - on their tongues and gums feeling sore;
> 
> be careful phet use does not lead to gingivitis i.e. worst case scenario your gums become loose from your teeth.
> 
> http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/amphetamines/amphetamines_health.shtml
> 
> i'm allowed to talk of this as this is a toxicity thread/ bonjela all the way. sources not verified but found by searches.



though it's probably more likely i'd cause damage by going to bed without brushing my teeth. oo pass the bacon buttie dipped in common sense please.


----------



## fastandbulbous

My first encounter with obviously mephedrone intoxicated people this weekend. One lad had a Tourette's like tic th\t kept jerking his whole head round while I was talking/listening (mostly listening) to him. Another had this weird mouth thing going on - both more exaggereated than anything I saw with MDMA


----------



## pofacedhoe

fastandbulbous said:


> My first encounter with obviously mephedrone intoxicated people this weekend. One lad had a Tourette's like tic th\t kept jerking his whole head round while I was talking/listening (mostly listening) to him. Another had this weird mouth thing going on - both more exaggereated than anything I saw with MDMA



yeah the gurning is brutal- and the lip licking is way more like amphetamine+citalopram combo


----------



## MeDieViL

I agree, mephedrone completely fucks you up, it gave me eye whigles but my eyes were literally smashing from one side to the other mdma didnt ever come close to that.

I'm betting this is one of the reasons why its so damn popular, ppl want to get fucked up, and mephedrone does a very good job at that.


----------



## InternetMuse

You guys must be taking it in quite large doses then...maybe I've just not hit that threshold.  But I've never had excessive gurning, eye wiggles, lip licking, tongue chewing or anything else that people say you are definitely going to do whilst on mephedrone.

Granted, I've never taken more than 1g in a 24hr period and each dose (insufflated) is about 80 - 100mg but never much more (often less).

Just wondering what doses you are taking to get such pronounced side-effects?


----------



## MeDieViL

InternetMuse said:


> You guys must be taking it in quite large doses then...maybe I've just not hit that threshold.  But I've never had excessive gurning, eye wiggles, lip licking, tongue chewing or anything else that people say you are definitely going to do whilst on mephedrone.
> 
> Granted, I've never taken more than 1g in a 24hr period and each dose (insufflated) is about 80 - 100mg but never much more (often less).
> 
> Just wondering what doses you are taking to get such pronounced side-effects?



Just 2 lines, cant say the exact dose, but in total a gram was used and we were with 3 persons. (probably 150mg or something, snorted)
Mephedrone is just an incredible intense drug, its a shame its not that healthy. I've only used it twice.


----------



## FutureFlash

InternetMuse said:


> You guys must be taking it in quite large doses then...maybe I've just not hit that threshold.  But I've never had excessive gurning, eye wiggles, lip licking, tongue chewing or anything else that people say you are definitely going to do whilst on mephedrone.
> 
> Granted, I've never taken more than 1g in a 24hr period and each dose (insufflated) is about 80 - 100mg but never much more (often less).
> 
> Just wondering what doses you are taking to get such pronounced side-effects?



When I just started I was getting a nice high of 100mg or so insufflated. I think the first time I got serious eye wiggles was after a .5 bomb.


----------



## enduin

Absolutely. Meph can fuck you up even at small dosages, but it greatly vary from person to person. I had massive jaw clenching on 100mg+150mg while my buddy experienced a much more resonable level. Any substance affects different people in different way, even effect-wise, but meph I found probably more than other things.
Also it's able to cause concerning side-effects even when not abused, and this is enough for me to stay away.


----------



## China Rider

Fuck mephedrone, I ignored all the warnings and abused it during the month of October(10 grams).  Well now every time I get my heart pumping my hands get a little pale and turn a reddish/SLIGHT purple tint...i'm really nervous of what this can turn into...have been taking fish liver oil and cayenne pepper capsules in hope to combat this bullshit...any other suggestions?(besides, go see a doctor)


----------



## MeDieViL

China Rider said:


> Fuck mephedrone, I ignored all the warnings and abused it during the month of October(10 grams).  Well now every time I get my heart pumping my hands get a little pale and turn a reddish/SLIGHT purple tint...i'm really nervous of what this can turn into...have been taking fish liver oil and cayenne pepper capsules in hope to combat this bullshit...any other suggestions?(besides, go see a doctor)



Seems that the vasoconstriction caused by mephedrone is semi permanent in many cases, i wonder how that is possible?


----------



## MeDieViL

This is a post on drugs forum, wich may be off intrest:

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=627554&postcount=85


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

ive heard a few people talking about buphedrone, apparently a less harmful more potent version of mephedrone, anyone have any info on this at all? 

buzz xxx


----------



## MeDieViL

.xbuzzybeex. said:


> ive heard a few people talking about buphedrone, apparently a less harmful more potent version of mephedrone, anyone have any info on this at all?
> 
> buzz xxx


Buphedrone is a pretty weak stimulant from what i've read, its nothing compared to mephedrone.. If you want an alternative for mephedrone, go for methylone of flephedrone.


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

heard of mephedrone, but flephedrone?

wow  will have a looky see about this one...


----------



## ebola?

> My first encounter with obviously mephedrone intoxicated people this weekend. One lad had a Tourette's like tic th\t kept jerking his whole head round while I was talking/listening (mostly listening) to him. Another had this weird mouth thing going on - both more exaggereated than anything I saw with MDMA



Dosage regimen?


----------



## fastandbulbous

^ Don't know, but would hazard a guess at 'a lot'. It was frightening to think these people were going on about how great it was while constantly twitching like someone had crocodile clips on their scrotums and was giving regular electric shocks. I dislike the fucked up motor control that came with alcohol & ketamine(& to an extent opiates, but funnily never with methaqualone!), so I'd hate having some sort of drug induced chorea that made me look like I was being eaten away on the insides by maggots 

Even without my suspicions about 4-methyl substituted stimulants, that night would have been enough to put me off ever wanting to take it. If I want to get fucked up like that, I'll just wait until I'm a pensioner & the Parkinson's disease starts to develop (it seems my family are susecptible to it  )


----------



## jb0nez

Second that. Buphedrone is worthless, do not consider it a less toxic mephedrone, consider it a less everything than mephedrone. Check out the thread dedicated to buphedrone.


----------



## FutureFlash

Prefer methcathinone to mephedrone


----------



## ebola?

> I'd hate having some sort of drug induced chorea that made me look like I was being eaten away on the insides by maggots



Don't worry--the adrenal push is so strong that you wouldn't have time to notice exactly how you spaz out.


----------



## letoureiffel?

*toxicity*



fastandbulbous said:


> ^ Don't know, but would hazard a guess at 'a lot'. It was frightening to think these people were going on about how great it was while constantly twitching like someone had crocodile clips on their scrotums and was giving regular electric shocks. I dislike the fucked up motor control that came with alcohol & ketamine(& to an extent opiates, but funnily never with methaqualone!), so I'd hate having some sort of drug induced chorea that made me look like I was being eaten away on the insides by maggots
> 
> Even without my suspicions about 4-methyl substituted stimulants, that night would have been enough to put me off ever wanting to take it. If I want to get fucked up like that, I'll just wait until I'm a pensioner & the Parkinson's disease starts to develop (it seems my family are susecptible to it  )



It blatant fucks with your nervous system. it is really addictive and it smells really strong so you'd know if you got sold it by mistake. No word of a lie a mate (i'm not "swimming") bought charlie the other night and they gave him mo'fo miaow!

what the heck is flephedrone?? and Buphedrone?? any good anyone? does it burn and corrode your sinuses like meph?

i think phetamines are supposed to be ingested rather than snorted. Don't know if this is a fallacy (an old wife's tale), but apparently if you put pure speed onto a piece of bacon it will cook it because the chemicals react with the fat!!!!


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

mephedrone totally cuts my mouth up  im in pain...


----------



## ColtDan

my jaw is aching like fuck


----------



## fastandbulbous

> Don't know if this is a fallacy (an old wife's tale), but apparently if you put pure speed onto a piece of bacon it will cook it because the chemicals react with the fat!!!!



100% pure unadulterated bollocks of the finest kind!


----------



## letoureiffel?

fastandbulbous said:


> 100% pure unadulterated bollocks of the finest kind!



well they may have taken gullible out of the dictionary but i wouldn't sprinkle it on my tummy lest it sizzled my shizzle 

i'm dreaming of a white christmas... moins le nez icicles. necesito una alternativa. Lol

peace out.


----------



## dread

Well, I once had speed that melted plastic... We would put it on a CD cover to make lines (there were a few non-IV guys present) and when we started to make lines with a credit card, we noticed that the card took tiny shavings of plastic from the CD cover... that was weird...


----------



## 7zark7

.xbuzzybeex. said:


> mephedrone totally cuts my mouth up



No, that'll be your teeth!


----------



## alex1236

I got a 5g bag of methphedrone today.  (4-methylmethcathinone, 4-MMC) It doesnt smell of anything.  I tested it with my EZ-test kit and it instantly went brown and started fizzing and bubbling, it also gave off a very strong chemical smell.  I tasted a bit and it tasted very strong.
I have certainly smelt it before and maybe tasted something similar. 

Maybe some pills ive had in the past have been cut with something on the same lines.  I'll wait to find out what the effects and after effects are like after xmas and new years.  I wont be snorting because i value my nose, will be mixing in coke probably

I didnt want to resort to something that could be more dangerous than illegal drugs but crap pills for the past few years and crap MDMA have finally pushed me.  That and a few of my mates who say its fantastic for a legal drug thats £10 a gram, no comedown, loads of energy, talkative, a bit emotional like pills etc (they are users of x for about 8 years)


----------



## ebola?

> no comedown



hahahahaha!
My single oral bioassay (200 mg, 50 mg redose just post-peak) involved a br00tal comedown, resembling what I'd imagine a crash from a combination of meth and mdma to be like (never tried that one).  The day after was smooth sailing though, as if I'd taken nothing the day before, NOT like MDMA (where I feel like death warmed over the next day).

ebola


----------



## fastandbulbous

dread said:


> Well, I once had speed that melted plastic... We would put it on a CD cover to make lines (there were a few non-IV guys present) and when we started to make lines with a credit card, we noticed that the card took tiny shavings of plastic from the CD cover... that was weird...




That's either unreacted BMK or more likely not totally removed solvent (ketone solvents seem to fuck lots of different plastics)


----------



## bresker

Sometimes my heart beats so loud it makes popping sounds in my throat.

Maybe it's just drug-fuelled paranoia, but listening to my heart isn't fun when I'm off.

Been doing meph for 9 months; meph & methylone togerther for 4.

Feel fine when I'm not taking it; but at times feel seriously scared.

Also, have strarted suffering sleep paralysis when trying to sleep for a few days afterwards. I fall into a very light sleep and then my whole body becomes paralyised. I'm not really asleep and I try to wake myself up but can't. I scream but no noise comes out.

It's not as scary as it sounds; it's actually quite interesting. But less so aT 4.00am Monday morning.


----------



## rickolasnice

Careful man^ Mephedrone can fuck with anxiety / paranoia in a very bad way.. Panic attacks are jus round the corner.. jus go easy an stay safe.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

bresker said:


> Also, have strarted suffering sleep paralysis when trying to sleep for a few days afterwards. I fall into a very light sleep and then my whole body becomes paralyised. I'm not really asleep and I try to wake myself up but can't. I scream but no noise comes out.
> 
> It's not as scary as it sounds; it's actually quite interesting. But less so aT 4.00am Monday morning.



Was unaware others experienced this... I noticed it just before I quit doing Mephedrone all the time.


Update on teh brains damage: I can feel coke now , but just two nights ago I insufflated a pill containing TFMPP and MDMA... didn't feel anything aside from trouble falling asleep.


----------



## deckmunki

Bob Loblaw said:


> Was unaware others experienced this... I noticed it just before I quit doing Mephedrone all the time.
> 
> Update on teh brains damage: I can feel coke now , but just two nights ago I insufflated a pill containing TFMPP and MDMA... didn't feel anything aside from trouble falling asleep.



Sleep paralysis seems related to serotonin. There was a Daily Mail-esque mention of a recent (?) study of a small group of people which alleged a strong link between MDMA use and sleep paralysis and/or sleep apnoea.

This might be as good a place to start as any:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sleep+paralysis+serotonin

For what it's worth, I'm still taking meph, pretty much all day, every day, since last June; at work, at home, when I'm out...

I'm watching my health deterioriate noticeably - skin condition, weight, sleep loss, growing long- and short-term memory problems...

I'm averaging one gram of meph a day; I want to write anonymously (somewhere, possibly a blog) about my experiences to try and document in a non-scientific way what's happening, and why. This is from August - you'd have thought I'd have learnt from this experience, but no chance 

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=460454

I'm using high doses of antioxidants (3-ish x RDA) to try and minimise neurotoxicity, and similarly high doses (around 900mg a day) of magnesium to offer some protection from brain zaps and raise my seizure threshold (my hypnic jerks are becoming noticeably more violent; I'm fairly sure it's only a matter of time before I go down into a full-blown tonic-clonic...).

I get almost unmanageable brain zaps - both awake and at night (when they're much worse) - and magnesium is the only thing which I've found can offer some protection. I have a bit of a theory the zaps - which tend to happen in 3s or 4s, about 3 a second - are a precursor to seizure activity; it's a shaky theory, but it's helped a bit by the 3-per-second thing, which is mentioned in epileptic activity - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epilepsy.

Actually, I have a shitload to write about 7 months of meph abuse - 99% of what I remember is somewhere between "bad" and "ohmygoddon'tremindmeIdidthatatwork". I'll save that for another day though... 

Peace out 

ps Fast And Bulbous: I know, I'm a massive tool... ;o)


----------



## brokenbrain

Why are you not at the dr's and addiction clinic describing these symptoms?
They are get round able.
You are going to either fuck yourself up very much or die, but I'm reckoning you know that.
SSRI's say fluoxetine could poss help you with the zaps and serotonin fuckery.
Describe the seizure like effects in detail to a medical professional. There are a number of drugs to help with this.
6 months now and yeah I don't know where your money is coming from, and its not my business......cash flow has always been the staunch underpinning of any of my problems. If I can't buy 2 litres of gin a day then I can't keep a 2 a day habit up.....etc.
You want to write a new journal where we have no connection to you, when this place is the best place for you apart from strapped to a hospital bed with multiple lines in your arm and a possible week - month stay ahead of you.

This place is harm reduction and you can still use it if you come back more often. Did you see the meph addiction thread.....they had it very softcore to you.

I'm not certain why you are still doing this to yourself? Is it that there is still a high attainable that you crave THAT badly? Or is it to stop some of the negative symptoms?

Do you want to write anonymously so various people on here won't just let you die? Are you suicidal? Do you want to die? I don't think so.


There are some people in the health service willing to listen to people with drug problems, with drugs they know nothing about. They aren't all ignoramuses who don't think that a new drug isn't knocked up every day, possibly 1 in 10 with the potential for addiction? 

Dr,Addiction centre, Hospital and go through however many pepole you have to....the Hippocratic oath they have taken should by law prevent from refusing you treatment and if you reach the right one you might get the right treatment.


----------



## deckmunki

Brokenbrain, the only reason I think it would be good to write anonymously is to offer an extra layer of protection from being identified. I'm not suicidal, don't want to die, have a great job and life, etc.

But...

You make a damned good point. You've given me a lot to think about - thanks


----------



## bresker

deckmunki said:


> I'm not suicidal, don't want to die, have a great job and life, etc.
> 
> But...



I cane meph every day.


----------



## bresker

RE: vasoconstriction

Cocaine is also a vasoconstrictor, yes?

Say one binged on coke - would this be more or less toxic than mephedrone, hypothetically?

Are the physical effects of bingeing on coke comparable to mephedrone?

(Cocaine does nothing for me, so I've never taken more than a few lines in my life, so excuse my ignorance.)


----------



## ebola?

It's a bit tough to say, as we'd be comparing typical stimulant related vasoconstriction with cocaine, coupled with additional cardiotoxicity from calcium channel blocking activity, to mephedrone, which metabolizes to a very toxic, long-lasting vasoconstrictor.  I'd have to say that epidemiological data appears to suggest that cocaine would be safer.

ebola


----------



## 7zark7

ebola? said:


> It's a bit tough to say, as we'd be comparing typical stimulant related vasoconstriction with cocaine, coupled with additional cardiotoxicity from calcium channel blocking activity, to mephedrone, which metabolizes to a very toxic, long-lasting vasoconstrictor.  I'd have to say that epidemiological data appears to suggest that cocaine would be safer.



...but (correct me if I am wrong as I am way out of my league here!), doesn't cocaine present an additional danger with its anesthetic effect on the heart due to blocking of sodium ion channels?


----------



## MeDieViL

I have to agree that cocaine would be safer, mephedrone seems to cause long lasting vasoconstriction in some ppl which lasts up to more then 6 months.

Anyone has an idea how the hell that is possible?


----------



## bighooter

can you come up off mephedrone if you are on Mirtazapine?


----------



## MeDieViL

bighooter said:


> can you come up off mephedrone if you are on Mirtazapine?



The effects could be blunted, it blunts mdma's effect by blocking 5HT2A, same could happen with meph.


----------



## alex1236

following on my from post #539...

Had 1/3 a gram mixed into a jager bomb on xmas eve.  I was already drunk but like mdma does to me it sort of sobered me up, i can remember feeling fantastic.  talkative a bit emotional and horny.  Very energetic but wasnt on a dance night as i usually am so just very friendly and talkative.  Lasted a few hours.  I then left town, had a couple of beers with mates and jogged home a couple of miles.

Couldnt sleep too great at night but felt suprisingly ok on xmas day and was up at 8.30am after getting in at 4.30am.  Felt shit later on around 5pm but after eating and drinking water was fine.  mdma makes me feel bad but not too bad for around 3 days.  This stuff makes me feel really shit for a few hours but then fine

Overall for the £12 a gram it costs its worth it.  Im a bit scared about the fact noone really knows what is it in but cant be much worse than the dodgy pills ive been getting for the past few years.  Its definately going to get banned soon as its a LOT stronger than coke and a bit like mdma (IMO)...

Time to get a few more grams of it before its illegal!  Something new will come out in its place im guessing

edit - If it is just plant food, can i go to a garden center and buy a bucket of the stuff?  Or is it shipped from China or somewhere?


----------



## bresker

alex1236 said:


> edit - If it is just plant food, can i go to a garden center and buy a bucket of the stuff?



No harm in asking, everyone else is selling it these days. 

I was lying awake this morning listening to the science segment on 'Up All night' on radio 5. 

Someone asked why dogs get poisoned by chocolate, yet humans don't.

It's because of the active substance theobromine. We humans metabolise it fairly easily. It has a half-life of seven hours. But animals like dogs and cats metabolise it slowly. It's still in their system days later if they eat enough. And then it poisons their heart and other organs.

Now, some people may think that:

mephedrone is a bit like MDMA, speed and coke - ergo we excrete it like those substances.

But the theobromine/doggy comparison shows that similar substances can have very different effects based on their half-lives.

Some scientific types round here are suggesting that mephedrone has a very long half-life. A scarily long half-life. In other words, we don't excrete it easily; and the more you take, the more it builds up. So if it does do nasty things to you, like harden your arteries and restrict blood flow to your extremities, you may exacerbate it with daily/weekly use.

Of course, there's been no definitive scientific study done, and a lot of the conjecture is based on ephedra-type chemicals. 

The fact that we don't the know the half-life of mephedrone is scary enough in itself.

By the way, restriction of blood flow to the extremities includes the penis. I've certainly noticed blood-flow problems down there after major binges.

I also seem to have a lower sex drive. Not that I can't get wood; I'm just not as interested in sex. When I'm on the stuff I can get hyper-sexual; the rest of the week I'm barely interested. Which is mostly OK as I'm single; however I don't want to chemically castrate myself.

I also reckon it won't be doing your teeth enamel any good. I've already damaged my teeth badly through a combination of meth-sulf, crystal meth, pepsi max etc, but after 9 months of mephedrone/m1 use one of my teeth seems to have gone translucent. Ho-hum, that's another lie I've to tell to my dentist in a few months.


----------



## alex1236

Interesting.  When i was younger i fed our dog (german pointer) chocolate all the time.  She loved it and died of old age at 12.  I cant comment on the stuff building up inside you because I am not a scientist type either.  I would like to know what the buildup does to you because whilst i do enjoy drugs every now and again I am also quite heathly, eating healthy food almost all the time and exercising daily usually.

You are right about it making you 'hyper-sexual' But on xmas day i was extremely horny (not good!) and on boxing day i had a banging wank.  I had another the day after (yesterday) and had one earlier too.  So all is good on the blood circulation to penis thing.  My feet have been a bit cold but they normally are anyway, maybe it has redirected more to my dick than my feet usually...Great!


----------



## ebola?

> ...but (correct me if I am wrong as I am way out of my league here!), doesn't cocaine present an additional danger with its anesthetic effect on the heart due to blocking of sodium ion channels?



Sorry...I accidentally said "calcium" instead of "sodium".



> Some scientific types round here are suggesting that mephedrone has a very long half-life. A scarily long half-life. In other words, we don't excrete it easily; and the more you take, the more it builds up. So if it does do nasty things to you, like harden your arteries and restrict blood flow to your extremities, you may exacerbate it with daily/weekly use.



Actually, it would be a first order metabolite, 4-methyl-ephedrine, that has a very long half life.  It is also very likely this metabolite that is so cardiotoxic and vasoconstrictive.

ebola


----------



## fastandbulbous

> noone really knows what is it in but cant be much worse than the dodgy pills ive been getting for the past few years



Oh it most certainly _can_ be worse than dodgy pills




> But animals like dogs and cats metabolise it slowly



Chocolate isn't toxic to cats on a weight for weight basis. Dogs it def is




> Some scientific types round here are suggesting that mephedrone has a very long half-life



Not mephedrone, but it's metabolite 4-methylephedrine (it's the metabolite that causes all the dodgy stuff to happen)




> You are right about it making you 'hyper-sexual' But on xmas day i was extremely horny (not good!) and on boxing day i had a banging wank. I had another the day after (yesterday) and had one earlier too. So all is good on the blood circulation to penis thing.



Don't count on it staying that way




> edit - If it is just plant food, can i go to a garden center and buy a bucket of the stuff? Or is it shipped from China or somewhere?



No source questions (or the banhammer may be activated)




> ps Fast And Bulbous: I know, I'm a massive tool... ;o)



Nope, you're an addict (a labrl I'm unfortunately familiar with). I reserve 'massive tool' for those getting such symptoms, but who are in denial that it's the mephedrone causing their health problems


----------



## 7zark7

ebola? said:


> Sorry...I accidentally said "calcium" instead of "sodium".



That's what I thought - but didn't like to say!


----------



## alex1236

fastandbulbous -  What if this was used in dodgy pills?  Im sure i have tasted something similar before.  I tasted some white 'atomic bomb' pills that tasted very chimically and had a similar sort of taste

Sorry about the source question, i didnt want to know what garden centre or whereever.  Just if this stuff was coming from china or somewhere else or could anyone just walk into a store and buy 10kg of the stuff


----------



## dread

Dodgy pills usually have piperazines. Although, with the cheap prices of mephedrone it will only be a matter of time until someone starts pressing pills of it...


----------



## MeDieViL

dread said:


> Dodgy pills usually have piperazines. Although, with the cheap prices of mephedrone it will only be a matter of time until someone starts pressing pills of it...



In my area mephedrone pills have been around for months. Wont be suprised if soon mephedrone replaced all piperazines.


----------



## pofacedhoe

so how long does this 4-methyl ephedrine stay around? educated guesses please (F+B).


----------



## fastandbulbous

Don't know but apparently 4-methylamphetamine has a long half life due to removing one of the potential routes of metabolism amphetamine undergoes (4-hydroxylation). If it also stops MAO from doing it's job, them all the major routes of metabolism have been stopped


----------



## Vader

I saw mephedrone pills for sale online, by the hundred and available in a range of popular presses (rolex, doves etc).


----------



## evilsnook

*OMG! Soooooo, like, tOXIC!*

Sooooooooooooooo, like , toxic, like, if I were, like, you, I'd like, totally stay away from it. Like.... just like....being nice.... like... like............


----------



## skoat

Say, "like" one more time.  Do it.  See what happens.


----------



## pofacedhoe

fastandbulbous said:


> Don't know but apparently 4-methylamphetamine has a long half life due to removing one of the potential routes of metabolism amphetamine undergoes (4-hydroxylation). If it also stops MAO from doing it's job, them all the major routes of metabolism have been stopped



i find that when i feel the speedy drug leaving a day or two after the initial 4mmcat high i get terrible wind (farts and burps) than a day later that speedy aftertaste is gone and i feel tired and bored and incredicbly hungry. is there a metabolic route that would leave me with loads of gas (more than even fizzy beer) from every end (disolved in the blood maybe)?


----------



## fastandbulbous

Nope - I find anxiety causes me to unconciously swallow air, resulting in extreme flatulence at times (esp when I used to use Psilocybe mushrooms). Most probably happens with you as well


----------



## John Lewis

vecktor said:


> Mephedrone metabolism.
> 
> looks like my earlier prediction of the paramethyl ephedrine metabolite is correct, although it also makes paramethyl norephedrine by N-demethylation.
> 
> from what I am hearing mephedrone users should expect more bad news over the following months.
> 
> please use this stuff in strict moderation if you must use it, if you can't moderate your consumption don't take it at all. It is not looking good at the moment.
> 
> Also can wemake an effort to keep the signal to noise higher on this thread. Don't post inane trip reports here, post them in trip reports. I suggest that any future off topic trip reports will be deleted
> 
> vecktor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> O45. Metabolism of the new designer drug mephedrone
> and toxicological detection of the beta keto designer drugs
> mephedrone, butylone and methylone in urine
> M.R. Meyer, F.T. Peters, H.H. Maurer
> Department of Experimental and Clinical Toxicology, Saarland University,
> D-66421 Homburg (Saar), Germany
> 
> Introduction: Beta keto (bk) designer drugs are a new class of drugs of
> abuse. In contrast to mephedrone (2-methylamino-1-p-tolylpropane-1-one),
> the metabolism of butylone (2-methylamino-1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)
> butan-1-one, bk-MBDB) and methylone (3,4-methylenedioxymethcathinone,
> bk-MDMA) has already been investigated. So far, these designer drugs have
> not yet been included in our systematic toxicological analysis (STA).
> 
> Aim: The first aim of the presented work was to study the metabolism of
> mephedrone and to incorporate all of the above-mentioned bk-designer drugs
> into our STA. The second aim was to check for suitability of our rat model
> by comparing incurred rat urine samples with human urine samples from
> mephedrone and butylone users.
> 
> Methods: For the metabolism study, urine samples from male Wistar rats
> (20 mg/kg BW) were extracted (liquid-liquid or Isolute Confirm HCX
> cartridges) after enzymatic cleavage of conjugates. After extraction and
> acetylation, the metabolites were separated and identified by GC–MS in
> the electron ionisation and in the positive chemical ionisation mode. For
> toxicological detection, a common users dose corresponding to 1 mg/kg
> BW were administered to rats and urine was collected over a 24 h period.
> Human urine submitted to our laboratory for toxicological analysis was
> collected approximately 6 hours after intake of an unknown amount of
> butylone and mephedrone. The rat and human urine samples were analyzed
> using our STA based on an acid hydrolysis followed by liquid-liquid
> extraction, acetylation and analysis via full-scan GC-MS. Finally, the
> results from the metabolism and screening studies in rats were compared
> to those obtained from the patients’ urine to verify the suitability of the
> used rat model.
> 
> Results: Analysis of the rat and human samples revealed the following
> main metabolic steps for mephedrone: N-demethylation to the primary
> amine, reduction of the keto moiety to the respective alcohol and oxidation
> of the tolyl moiety to the corresponding alcohols and carboxylic acids. The
> metabolites of butylone and mephedrone detected in rat urine could also be
> found in human urine samples. Using our STA, the parent compounds and
> N-demethyl metabolites could be detected in rat urine after a common user’s
> dose as well as in the patients’ urine samples in the case of mephedrone and
> butylone.
> 
> Conclusion: Besides the elucidation of the metabolism of the new designer
> drug mephedrone, we were able to show, that our STA was suitable to proof
> S1-23
> 
> Ann Toxicol Anal. 2009; 21(S1) Abstracts
> an intake of at least butylone and/or mephedrone in human urine. These
> examples showed again that the used rat model was suitable to predict the
> qualitative metabolism and detectability of drugs in human urine.
> Keywords: designer drugs, butylone, mephedrone, methylone, metabolism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ata-journal.org/articles/ata/pdf/2009/02/ata2009s102.pdf
Click to expand...


So what effects will this be having on people?


----------



## bresker

If mephedrone causes long-term vasoconstriction lasting 6 months or more, should those affected have high BP readings?

I'm not about to take my BP during a meph session, fair play to those here who can take such readings for trip reports; I don't fancy freaking myself out.

But I got my BP taken last month and it was 100/62. This was 5 days after taking a gram or so of meph/M1 mix and after taking such mixes for many months.

----------

Had my Monday night sleep paralysis/lucid dreaming at 4.00am. Restless legs, hovering between sleep & wakefuless. Because I couldn 't wake myself up I tried to control the dreams; I tried to make my unconscious sleeping self wander around the house and do mundane tasks like fold washing. But I got attacked by a golden coloured monster and a weird old man. Wasn't much fun. I got too afraid to go back to sleep and stayed awake till 5.30 to make myself really exhausted. Took a few paramol to control the restless legs but I think they may have made the nightmares worse. 

Wasn't a lot of fun this time. This happens every Monday. Luckily I started work late today.

Have no desire to take any more of this substance at the moment, but then it's Tuesday.


----------



## MeDieViL

Hmm i was thinking about this long lasting vasoconstriction...

Is it possible that this is caused by some kind of sensitisation/downregulation of certain alpha adrogenic receptors? I wonder how good something like Tolazoline would work to correct the symptons.

Ive got no other explanation for this effect lasting long term.


----------



## MeDieViL

bresker said:


> If mephedrone causes long-term vasoconstriction lasting 6 months or more, should those affected have high BP readings?
> 
> I'm not about to take my BP during a meph session, fair play to those here who can take such readings for trip reports; I don't fancy freaking myself out.
> 
> But I got my BP taken last month and it was 100/62. This was 5 days after taking a gram or so of meph/M1 mix and after taking such mixes for many months.


I dont think they had a high blood pressure (ecept the normal raise caused by a stimulant) as everything seemed to appear normal when they were hospitalized. (except looking purple).


----------



## bresker

I would have thought vasoconstriction would cause hypertension or am I missing something?


----------



## MeDieViL

bresker said:


> I would have thought vasoconstriction would cause hyperrtension or am I missing something?



Thats the odd thing about those ppl being hospitalised, all parameters appeared completely normal.



> My heart rate stayed at ~100 for eight hours, and the blood pressure and oxygen levels were apparently normal.


http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=7217937&postcount=100

Hmm maybe this guy is correct and its dermatomyositis and not vasoconstriction after all thats causing those symptons?


----------



## MeDieViL

Hmm, i think this guy may be correct about dermatomyositis.

There allways has been one report about mephedrone with a very strange effect, i never knew how to explain it. I allways tought something more then just vasoconsctriction was going on.

Here i quote the whole report:


> SWIM first ordered mephedrone 3-4 months ago as pills and MDMA had turned into crunchy BZP crap.
> Initially amazed by results and that it was legal.
> First couple of times used up to 350mg, didnt fiend that bad and could sleep without any problems.
> Then a night without sleep consuming over a gram resulted in purple knees, rapid heart beat and abit of a guilt ridden panic attack when realised it was 10.30am the following day.
> The next few times consuming upto a gram noticed profuse sweating, shortness of breath, freezing cold toes and the returning of purple knees.
> A morning after one of these binges SWIM noticed his left testicle was heavy, the actual ball itself has grown in size, the veins leading to the testicle were really thick and there was a small amout of fluid surrounding it aswell.
> Worried by this SWIM was refered to Urology, were the doctor appeared to be just as concerned and arranged for a scan and blood test there and then.
> The doctor said it wasnt a Variocele, and that although there was fluid most of the size was the ball itself.
> He also asked if SWIM worked with chemicals to which he replied no. Whilst being scanned the doctor said there was fluid but not enough to be classed a Hydrocele, a couple of cysts were present but normal and that the testicle appeared normal.
> When sent back to the original doctor he was surprised by the results of the scan but said this was good news as the scan would of picked up anything nasty.
> The doctor decided to try antibiotics to see if it was due to infection and wanted to see SWIM again in a month and said he may scan it again.
> SWIM finished the course of antibiotics without any change at all and is due to go back to the hospital in a couple of days.
> SWIM was just wondering if anyone on this forum has this problem or is aware of any reason why this would happen or if it would be very unlikely a result of the Meph and is just a horrible coincidence?
> Any help/explanations would be very much appreciated.



If the dermatomyositis theory is correct, we may be able to explain this side effect.

Dermatomyositis is characterized by inflammation of the muscles and the skin. If i'm correct such inflammation may cause fluid to build up which would explain this very strange side effect.

It would also explain the so called long lasting vasoconstriction, which i tought was pretty weird, and if it indeed was such a severe vasoconstriction shouldnt blood pressure go up too?

Obviously i have no idea what i'm talking about here, but its just a theory i think could be possible.

Dermatomyositis just seems to completely match all the reported symptons.


----------



## ColtDan

good point!

ive spoken to a few random people out and about who claimed of rashes, etc

it could well be causing skin conditions


----------



## MeDieViL

ColtDan said:


> good point!
> 
> ive spoken to a few random people out and about who claimed of rashes, etc
> 
> it could well be causing skin conditions



If those severe symptons are indeed caused by dermatomyositis i'm guessing that those who experience rashes caused by mephedrone are at a much bigger risk to develop those severe symptons seen in some ppl.

It also makes me wonder wheter you could somehow do an allergy test to check wheter you are sensitive to this side effect of mephedrone.

IMO no doubt that vasoconstriction plays a big role too, 4 methyl ephedrine is probably very nasty in high doses, and it would only augment the bad side effects caused by mephedrone so it looks alot worse.

And again i have no idea what i'm talking about, its all just speculation.

I would personally like to find out wheter:
- Those who experienced bad side effects from mephedrone experienced rashes before.
- A vasodilator allevates the symptons ppl show weeks after taking mephedrone.

EDIT:

I've just read this report again:


> Hi guys. I did Mephedrone for the fourth time today with a cumulative dosage of around 600mg (somehow...) over around 6 hours from 2am to 8am this morning. I am still confused as to how I finished the gram off since I only remember taking a 100mg bomb and a couple of lines. This morning, at around 8am, maybe earlier, I started to notice my knees turning slightly purple. I had read about that teenager who overdosed and went blue in the face. Naturally, I start worrying a lot. It became worse and worse until my knees were completely blue and my feet were going really pale. It also happened to my arms, quite severely. I started getting confused and tired. *I had developed two red rashes one on my shoulder and one on my thigh.* I remember watching the blue spread across my arms until i was covering the majority of the "outsides" of my arms. I kept breathing really deeply to try and slow my heart down and get more oxygen to my body. My hands were really blotchy with red and purple. My limbs had lost temperature and were pretty numb and as I looked in the mirror my ears my pale and slightly tinted blue along with my face. I looked closely and my lips were becoming blue as well. I tried to get the energy to phone an ambulance at this point as I thought that was the end of me. However, Very VERY luckily the side effects peaked and started to subside. I lay in bed breathing deeply for around 2 more hours until my limbs were nearly the correct color. Even now, 12 hours since the first dose (and the majority) and 6 since the final dose of around 50mg, my limbs do not feel right, especially my knees. If I cross my legs now my knees start going blue.


http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=7171008&postcount=28

The rashes seem to come along with this person turning blue, again this makes me think that this is not just vasoconstriction.


----------



## 7zark7

MeDieViL said:


> Thats the odd thing about those ppl being hospitalised, all parameters appeared completely normal.



Can't remember if I have mentioned it in a previous post, but could any hypertension caused by the vasoconstriction be 'cancelled out' by the dehydration that meph seems to cause?


----------



## fastandbulbous

^ Possibly - that would also cause incredible strain/damage to the kidneys


----------



## MeDieViL

7zark7 said:


> Can't remember if I have mentioned it in a previous post, but could any hypertension caused by the vasoconstriction be 'cancelled out' by the dehydration that meph seems to cause?


I cant answer that one. I'l leave that question for f&b or any other of the smart ppl here.


----------



## bresker

Not eating for long periods should also lead to a drop in blood pressure? Though this will also put pressure on the kidneys.

Though I don't get the evil, wine-dark urine on this stuff that I've experienced during major amphetimine binges.

I try and hydrate the day before, during, and after a session. I forget to during sometimes though. Dry mouth will also screw your tooth enamel.

I had a kidney function test last month and was given a clean bill of health.


----------



## Bavanai

i never do more than 250mg a session and i do it rarely (say monthly), so far it's ok, i don't get nasty side-effects, i can eat right after it and i can sleep a couple of hours after it wore off.

i think all these side effects and toxicity come from excessive abuse OR some unhealthy cuts (don't think that if it's legal it's 99% pure)


----------



## fastandbulbous

Yes but that's measured use, most people get sucked into redosing _ad nauseam _until they turn purple & panicky


----------



## pofacedhoe

fastandbulbous said:


> Yes but that's measured use, most people get sucked into redosing _ad nauseam _until they turn purple & panicky



my on off use off this drug has been what could be most certainly labbelled addiction. 

anyway the wierd thing i notice with it is that i get a lot more dead skin on my face after use and my lips often peel. people at work have remarked how i looked younger 5 days after a binge a couple of weeks ago (i would have thought i looked older). is this some sort of steroid action or due to serotonin and cell division. either way i dont think it can be good long term as steroids are well known for thinning the layers of your skin with overuse-ergo lots of health problems


----------



## 7zark7

pofacedhoe said:


> my on off use off this drug has been what could be most certainly labbelled addiction.
> 
> anyway the wierd thing i notice with it is that i get a lot more dead skin on my face after use and my lips often peel. people at work have remarked how i looked younger 5 days after a binge a couple of weeks ago (i would have thought i looked older). is this some sort of steroid action or due to serotonin and cell division. either way i dont think it can be good long term as steroids are well known for thinning the layers of your skin with overuse-ergo lots of health problems



I'd go for dehydration as meph does seem sot have diuretic properties. But I always say that - I believe that many after-effects of drug use can be prevented or minimised by simply keeping nicely watered


----------



## alex1236

I also got very chapped lips but that was because i was chewing on them i think and also not drinking enough water (beers instead)

Ill be more sensible tonight


----------



## bresker

I dropped some tonight, and after hanging round here all week I didn't enjoy the experience at all. I was very conscious of my heart. It was beating almost through my ribcage and seemed to be echoing in my oesphagus.

But it wasn't an illusion. After the effects wore off my heart returned to normal and I dropped some methylone on its own. A  much cleaner high; the effects were nearly all on my head, not my body. Heart fluttering but not pumping like a steam-hammer.

I'm done with mephedrone. It's causing me alcohol-type blackouts too; I can't really remember a period of a couple of hours during the peak of the experience. I didn't drop any more than 200g. The new batches seem to be very strong as well. I opened a new bag tonight and although it was from the same supplier as my last lot, it is seemingly more powerful. It is hard to measure the dosage.


----------



## dread

> It is sometimes sold as "plant food" online, is reported to be contained in some legal highs and is sometimes sold mixed with methylone, also known as “Bubbles”,[3] "miaow miaow", or MMCAT.[4]



Whoever heard mephedrone being called "miaow miaow"?


----------



## ColtDan

drone is starting to make me paranoid. and makes me see weird stuff sometimes.

giving this shit up as i promised myself for new year


----------



## fastandbulbous

alex1236 said:


> I also got very chapped lips but that was because i was chewing on them i think and also not drinking enough water (beers instead)
> 
> Ill be more sensible tonight



yes alcohol is a diuretic as well so you'd end up super-dehydrated (moreso than with meph alone)




> Whoever heard mephedrone being called "miaow miaow"?



Me! It's in the uk poisons database (toxbase) with a ref to it being called "miaow miaow". I know that beause my ex wrote the monograph!


----------



## dread

fastandbulbous said:


> Me! It's in the uk poisons database (toxbase) with a ref to it being called "miaow miaow". I know that beause my ex wrote the monograph!



did mephedrone make her miaow?


----------



## ColtDan

miaow miaow, what a fucking stupid name


----------



## dread

Kinda reminds me of 5-MeO-W...


----------



## AntonXSJ

Hello, i just signed up to bluelight as i was looking for a place to find some information about mephedrone, i looked into it a bit and asked friends before i started taking it around 4 months ago, i thought i would share my experience of the drug to see if it helps at all, or if other people have experienced the same as me.

Firstly the main reason i started taking this when i went out was because i was told it was like mdma without the come down, however i still seem to hit a pretty bad come down not long after stopping using it, another thing i noticed was if i take it for a couple of days running i sometimes get sharp pains below my rib cage dont know what exactly but something seems to hurt there, i dont seem to chew my lips as much as other people but i grind my teeth all night and my eyes tend to dart around alot right after doing a line.

Those are the main things ive noticed from using it, i feel now that i should have done alot more research before i started taking it but ive only been doing it for a few months so far so i think il stop soon and hopefully there wont be any lasting effects, oh and i left out, after taking it last night i was forgetting what i was talking about right in the middle of a sentence but i had smoked a fair amount of weed earlier but it only seemed to happen after the mephedrone aswell.


----------



## alex1236

I had just over a 1/4 a gram on NYE mixed in a jager bomb.   It was at a dance night and was very similar to mdma but missing the 'wow' factor.  Overall I had a great night.  Came back around 5am after taking at midnight, feeling tired due to 6 hours of dancing but not too bad.  Stayed up due to house party still going on until 7.30.  

I remember feeling a few face twitches, mouth felt like crap due to drinking it and my eyes hurt.  Day after I felt crap mostly due to 2 hours sleep.  This morning I feel pretty normal, mouth still feels not too great. 

Overall i would say I had a great night on it, i was drinking a bottle of water with it after around 1am and I had no more.  I think it people are going to do it, they should treat it was respect, similar to mdma and any other drug really.  I certainly wouldnt have had 2 whole mushroom shakes to myself when in thailand because 1/2 knocked my head off.  A gram of mdma crystal in ibiza made me collapse to the floor and apparently i was shaking, not saying anything and generally screwed for about 30 minutes.  After, I got up but didnt sleep for 2 days.

So, a 'normal' dose (around 1/4 - 1/3) a gram, with water should be fine.  Just dont be stupid and have gram after gram as some of my mates do (with no water)  Im going to stay awayfrom snorting it because i can feel what it does to teeth/mouth


----------



## theotherside

^^^What do you mean by "Your mouth hurt"? You mean you got sores?


----------



## alex1236

no, not sores.  It just feels rough like when you drink loads, doesnt really hurt.  Just feels a bit skanky!  I did have a couple of jager bombs, rum and vodka before though.


----------



## bresker

AntonXSJ said:


> i sometimes get sharp pains below my rib cage dont know what exactly but something seems to hurt there,



A young fella out of work was just describing the exact same pains to me the other day. 

He's been telling me that one of his friends have been doing deckmunki-style amounts. 'How is he?' I asked. 'Well, he was always a bit parnoid but he's kinda lost it....' came the reply.

My young friend says he lost a gram back at work so I guess he must be taking it daily too.


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

dread said:


> Whoever heard mephedrone being called "miaow miaow"?




miaow miaow is the brand of mephedrone i think, was the name of the website that used to sell it

i think its called that because people call it MCAT for short...as in 4-methylmethcathinone which sorta makes sense

not 100% though

buzz xxx


----------



## z0uga

*I thought the up was great but the down ruined me*

Hello

I didnt know how to make a new thread or forum or whatever they are called so i just found one and decided to write on it and see what you guys thought, this is quite epic so bare with me lol.

Right, it all started when a friend of mine brought over 1 gram of mephedrone, We were all set to go out clubbing after doing a few lines, I phoned up my work as i was supposed to be in at 6am the next morning saying i felt like shit and i wouldnt be in till 9am(Just to give me an extra few hours sleep), They bought it and i opened up my black dvd case of schindler's list, We poured the whole thing on and split some of it into lines, we carried on drinking, coming up quickly, chatting away and to be honest, ive tried alot of drugs but the up was incredible, i felt so bonded to talk about anything and be honest about stuff that was private lol. So we did 1, 2, 3, 4 lines all within half an hour feeling amazing, so i walked from the table to the sofa sat down after my 4th, then wam, all the colours went so strong, so strong everything turned yellow i sat up in a mad panic as i felt my heart racing, i started shouting my mates name, asking if this is how im supposed to be feeling, i heard the dim voice of another friend say "i think ben is having a panic attack", but i was so focused on how crazy i was feeling i wasnt really paying attention, all i could hear in my head was me telling myself, you have got to calm down.

   I did this for about 2 minutes when it slowly went away, the rush of my life as it felt, Suddenly i felt amazing again, such a relieve i was alive, i culdnt describe it, i hugged everyone in the room telling them i had actually felt like i was close to death, amazed i was alive i felt like captain scarlett. The night was amazing i got in after going out at 4am, had 4 hours sleep and went off to do a 10 hour shift.

The same day i got home from work at 7.15pm, absoluntly shatterd, still wondering what had happend to me the night before, i ran straight upstairs to my laptop and researched to see if anything else had happend to anyone else on mephedrone.....Nothing, i couldnt find anything on the net about people having the same experience. So my girlfriend came home from work 10 minutes later and it was hallowean, shit i forgot we were supposed to be going out tonight, I just wanted to sleep as i felt like utter shit, but my gf went out the room, came back in her sexyest lingerie and said if we have sex right now will you come out tonight, so stupidly i did, and went out. I was so tired i drank and drank and drank, craving meph to wake me up and make me feel better, later that night my gf had spent all night chatting to some ther bloke, it was 2.30am i was tired all i wanted was to go home, but my girlfriend said i could go but she wanted to stay, i assumed it was to see this other bloke, so i shouted at her and stormed off home.


It was 3.15 am by the time i got to bed, tossing and turning as i was so angry with her, I heard her come in at 4 and get into bed, She put her arm around me but i moved away as i was still mad. The alarm then went off at 5am, for me to go and do another 6am till 4pm shift. I got up and got dressed storming around as i was pissed off i had had 2 hours sleep and it was all her fault so i thought, she bribed me to come out, I rolled a cigerette only to not be able to find a lighter, i emptyed my girlfriends bag all over the floor trying to find one as i had to leave in the next 5 minutes or i would miss the ferry to work, I thought fuck it il have one later, my girlfriend said i love you as i stormed down the stairs only ignoring her, getting on my push bike and cycling to the ferry as fast as i could.  I got to the ferry in 5 minutes flat, only just catching it. I got on the ferry out of breathe and went and sat down. I thought to myself why am i so fucking angry, i joked and said to myself maybe im addicted to meph haha, then suddenly the same feeling i had before hit me, everything went abit yellow and a mass amount of panic hit me, i thought i was going to die constantly for about 30 mins, after i got off the ferry i didnt even cycle hardly to work, i was too afraid my heart might stop. I finally got to work 10 minutes late. I spent all day being afraid of having another yellow attack as i called them, and i did lots almost once an hour i would get a rush of panic i was going to die, they only went away if i calmed down or a customer came on.

I finally managed to get through the day and come home, only to wake up the next day with a racing heart but no yellow visions only panic. Slowly they have gone away, over the course of 10 weeks i still feel abit anxietyish, i sometimes get abit panicy for no reason and feel i am going to die, i have thought i have a brain tumor, cancer or im ging to have a heart attack alot over the last 10 weeks, Far less every week. For a week straight afterwards i didnt feel normal, i took some speed the following week, which actually made me feel better, the anxiety went away for weeks untill i woke up having another Rush of fear and panic(That was so scary).

But i have never had panic attacks before in my entire life, i was so outgoing i frowned upon them, this is my first time taking meph, Nor do i do drugs alot i smoke weed here and there, but that is the 1st time i have done anything harder in over a year. I used to do coke, speed, mdma, pills and cannabis atleast once or twice aweek for a year. I took a year out of all drugs and did meph and look what it did to me. Now i am scared of ever doing meph again or any other drug like mdma, methylone or anything. Im so annoyed as i love going out and having a couple of lines but now im too scared to incase something simular happens. I havent been to the doctors as i know i have worked myself up in my head to be scared I know its all in my head as when i am distracted i dont notice it, only when im sat still my heart hurts, my head feels funny ormy breathing feels empty. Everytime my friends offer me a bomb of meph i always pretend to have it. Im so scared to do it again, but realy miss doing any drugs as all my friends are doing them weekly.

Has anyone else had this problem or anything simular


Sorry this is so long, but going into detail has made me feel better already,

If you read all this and respond thankyou in advance and i will thankyou again later

Much love from ben aka Bean


----------



## AntonXSJ

> don't buy mephedrone as it can kill.



Oh its perfectly safe to buy lol...takin it on the other hand..


----------



## deckmunki

z0uga: no, you're not alone. Your panic attack probably wasn't a panic attack as such - symptomatically the same, but it sounds the same as mine which were brought on by meph (a few times), MDPV (every time I tried it - 3, then I binned it), and methylone (once after a stupid overdose I'll never repeat again).

The inevitable conclusion of a runaway panic attack is unconsciousness which, funnily enough, is usually what's needed to get the body out of its hyperventilating cycle and force everything to even out.* It sounds like you made it through that one. I've had some spectacularly horrible ones lasting several (up to 5) hours thanks to MDPV.

This is one thread I posted after a very nasty set of side effects from too much meph and not enough sleep:
*Mephedrone: think I've managed to do some serious damage - what could these pains be?*


Anyway, take the panic attacks and comedowns from hell as a warning sign, learn to regulate your doses (like I'm having to do) and get yourself off the drug before you downregulate your serotonin and dopamine receptors and do permanent damage. Honest, there's better stuff out there.

* Non-scientific, unfounded, theorised bollocks alert - take with a pinch of salt ;o)

Al


----------



## z0uga

Yeah, I read your post, That sounds pretty harsh. TBH, The best thing you can do i think is aid the recovery, take up some exercise and eat as healthy lifestyle as you can for a month. I think alot of it is in your head. Although you have done alot, I know someone that does more, He once did 13grams in one day and on average has about 3 grams aday. But he has been doing that for about  2 years straight ever since the drug came out, I will admit he is fucked, but if he changed his life style i think he would become normal again.

Also i dont know if you know, But alot of people that have claimed to have died on meph havent, they all had something else wrong with them. Like that 14-yearold she died of a lung infection, They just blamed it on meph. And look at it this way more people die from smoking and alcohol in the last 2 months than people have on meph since it came out.

I would try it, as lifting weights or something you do 3 times aweek actually makes your heart fitter, A friend of mine is a body builder/fitness freek. He does all the drugs in the world and never flips panics or anything. I think its purely because he is so confident in his own body. Because it is in such good shape it triggers its own sub-consious nerve making you feel abit more invincible than the average joe. Because he knows his organs are looked after constantly, because he eats well, sleeps well and trains hard. He also partys very hard yet he seems to recover so much quicker than the rest of us as he looks after himself.

I dont know for exact but thats what im guessing it is.

I hope you get better soon. I would shove that meph out your life for maybe 8 months or a year if u can stand it. I think it is abit dodgey, but so is everything.

Ben :D


----------



## alex1236

Im pretty healthy, cardio, weights, healthy eating etc.  I have between 1/4 and 1/3 gram on new years eve, head a great night no panic attacks or anything (see post on previous page)

However last night i had a bit of a smoke of some green.  I managed a couple of small bongs but got major paranoid and got my heart going.  Not sure if it was something in the weed because it was certainly strong and mates who had it all were very high. 

For me I felt different to normal, like there was still some of the mephedrone lingering inside me.  I tried having a beer but made me feel worse.  I smoked no more and drank water and went to bed.  Weed normally hits me hard but im sure it hit me a lot more after my intake of mkat... never been a big fan of weed though


----------



## AntonXSJ

alex1236 said:


> For me I felt different to normal, like there was still some of the mephedrone lingering inside me.



Thats what i was saying to my mate the other day after we did it on new years, after taking quite a bit, the day and sometimes even the day after that u can feel the effects, they seem to linger around for longer than pills/mdma.


----------



## MeDieViL

It also comes out of your sweat. Is that actually usuall for a drug or not? because of its smell we may only notice it with meph.


----------



## alex1236

Yes, i read that the 'half life' of it is a lot longer than mdma.  Obviously the weed i had yesterday brought it back out or something.  Anyway, i think if you are sensible with it and just have 1/4 gram you should be fine as long as you stay watered.  Also dont do it every week, that said ive only ever had it on xmas eve...then new years eve.

Think ill leave off it for a while, seems like pretty hardcore stuff to say its legal. 

I also read its "two molecular tweaks away from pure ecstasy."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ts-cheap-easy-order-pizza--totally-legal.html

...Time to get some more in whilst its legal.  Plus at least you are guaranteed purity.  I can see the next installment of pills being mkat mixed with other crap and sold for 3 times the price


----------



## FlowerOfLife

unless there is an antidote(?) for the drug uve ingested dont tell the doctors fuk all ffs, u want that shyte on ur medical health records??!!


----------



## fastandbulbous

> Plus at least you are guaranteed purity.




No you're not. Some vendors are just dealers who've taken the legal route ie they still cut it


----------



## z0uga

The same thing happend to me, smoking weed within a week after meph i dont recomend, And you are correct the half life of meph is quite long, i always think the best way to avoid the paranoia after taking meph or a bad comedown is to make sure you spend the following day in bed, loads of munchies, dvds, games, wank wipes, vitamin tablets, water and an electric blanket can fix you in a day :D


----------



## fastandbulbous

FlowerOfLife said:


> unless there is an antidote(?) for the drug uve ingested dont tell the doctors fuk all ffs, u want that shyte on ur medical health records??!!




Well that's pretty stupid. Even if there isn't an antidote, they need to know what type of drug you've taken so the can watch out for specific signs that they need to intervene with supportive treatment (eg the likelyhood of convulsions & hyperthermia from ODing on stimulants eh methamphetamine and any additional side effects perculiar to that drug eg cardiac problems with cocaine. 

It could be the difference between them having the right equipment ready to use (which saves your life) or having to work blind/not knowing what to expect (and you dying). You want to say fuck all? It's your life...




> Although you have done alot, I know someone that does more, He once did 13grams in one day and on average has about 3 grams aday. But he has been doing that for about 2 years straight ever since the drug came out, I will admit he is fucked, but if he changed his life style i think he would become normal again.



I seriously doubt it. He's probably fried too many serotonogic cells and would have lasting, possibly lifelong anxiety and unstable moods. People doing far less than that for only months have reported insensitivity to stimulants & psychedelics that lasts a long time. With the amounts he's done, you're probably looking at years or even decades before the damage was compensated for. Ketamine is a much safer drug (OK it acts on different receptors, but bear with me) and long term use of silly amounts of that leads to a reduction of ability with language which is very long lived; in fact some people think they've suffered permanent damage. So something which is much more neurotoxic (it acts like MDMA, which means neurotoxicity - see 5HT neurones & dopamine uptake - and taking it daily for 2 years...), like mephedrone, is certain to leave some very long lived side effects.

You can abuse drugs like opiates every day for years and still be allright after stopping as they're pretty benign drugs in terms of chronic toxicity (OK they have a much higher acute toxicity, but that's their particular downfall), but stimulants & especially entactogens are nasty stuff with chronic use



Also it's not 4-MMC/mephedrone that has a long half life, but it's metabolite 4-methylephedrine, which causes all the nasty after effects


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

yea i totally found that after meph we all stank of it for days after. was with my bf yesterday and after taking some for nye his hands still smelt of it

he said that they only started smelling of it when he washed his hands :S

wierdd....?


----------



## alex1236

^ dont get it on your hands then!  stick it straight into a short and down the hatch.  no nose bleads, no smelly hands


----------



## VyperPunk

z0uga, on my first initial dose of 'drone I sometimes notice that the colour in the room is tainted yellow; like the light bulb is giving off yellow instead of white light. Thought it was just me, goes away when the initial high fades though.


----------



## z0uga

Yeah man, its really weird, some peoples eyes shake on it and mine never did, i just felt like i was on speed but more euphoric,

Has anyone ever tried methylone, and what is it like, des it make u as panicy as mephedrone and if not what are the differnces?


----------



## Vader

^If you use the search engine there's a ton of threads comparing the two.


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

only tried methylone once and only one line but its very chilled and smiley, found it was better when mixed with mephedrone, or some people mix it with butylone?

not suggesting mixing...just sayin 

buzz xxx


----------



## Vader

Methylone produces a horrible horrible comedown. Totally not worthwhile IME.


----------



## 7zark7

Yerg said:


> Methylone produces a horrible horrible comedown. Totally not worthwhile IME.



I don't get any comedown whatsoever after meph. I don't get the purple knees, chest pains, anxiety, paranoia, etc. either! I guess I am just lucky


----------



## MeDieViL

7zark7 said:


> I don't get any comedown whatsoever after meph. I don't get the purple knees, chest pains, anxiety, paranoia, etc. either! I guess I am just lucky



Dont get a comedown either, i do crave it like crazy when it wears off, that makes the comedown suck a bit tough.


----------



## Vader

> I don't get any comedown whatsoever after meph


Me neither, I was talking about methylone because someone asked for a comparison. 
I apologise for continuing the trend of off-topic rambling in this thread...


----------



## 7zark7

Yerg said:


> Me neither, I was talking about methylone because someone asked for a comparison.
> I apologise for continuing the trend of off-topic rambling in this thread...



hah! And I apologise for not reading your post correctly!


----------



## nolys

yeah does anybody know why i smell like mephedrone the next day :S, even if i swallow it and dont touch it the previous night.. i always wake up with the smell of mephedrone :S


----------



## MeDieViL

7zark7 said:


> hah! And I apologise for not reading your post correctly!



Lol, i completely read over that too:D


----------



## VyperPunk

nolys said:


> yeah does anybody know why i smell like mephedrone the next day :S, even if i swallow it and dont touch it the previous night.. i always wake up with the smell of mephedrone :S




I, and lots others, get this too.

I'm guessing it's from sweat? Bed sheets, clothes all smell of it next day


----------



## dread

It's probably a metabolite leaving the body via sweating... the same thing happens with amphetamine and meth... when you do speed for a few days, in the end you'll be _reeking_ of it... Called the "speed sweats" around here...


----------



## ebola?

Yet it's not actually excreted amphetamines or metabolites that induce this odor, right?
This would be from adrenergic effects and poor hygiene, IIRC...


----------



## Vader

IME speed sweat does have a distinctive odour though.


----------



## pofacedhoe

ebola? said:


> Yet it's not actually excreted amphetamines or metabolites that induce this odor, right?
> This would be from adrenergic effects and poor hygiene, IIRC...



there have been lots of times when i was trampy and didn't wash but ONLY after using meph does my bed and clothing smell of it


----------



## nolys

lol well i do have a shower every day... even after i have a shower the next morning i can still smell it off myself :S


----------



## frozenorange

Perhaps I've gotten a different synth of mephedrone - the only kind I've ever had (variety of different sources) has been the fine white crystal which smells slightly sweet - but neither I nor my missus, or our freinds who've had it, have had any smell issue whatsoever. Granted, there has been some residue in my nose the next day if I've snorted some, but never any of this body odour/sheets/clothing story, and certainly nothing near some of the reports I've read. I remember the early reports from Scandanavia calling it 'crab' or giving it names of seafood on account of the smell. Never had any experience with anything like that. 

Could it be a matter of different sources doing a better or worse job at synthesis? In which case, would it be feasible that incomplete synthesis could produce meph which is more toxic as a result of some undesirable (relative word when discussing mephedrone) chemicals still being in the mix?


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

does anyone actually know whats in this shit?


----------



## MeDieViL

.xbuzzybeex. said:


> does anyone actually know whats in this shit?



What?


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

i meant mephedrone, like not how you make it, but what actually is it?

doesnt sound like a stupid question to me?


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

frozenorange said:


> Perhaps I've gotten a different synth of mephedrone - the only kind I've ever had (variety of different sources) has been the fine white crystal which smells slightly sweet - but neither I nor my missus, or our freinds who've had it, have had any smell issue whatsoever. Granted, there has been some residue in my nose the next day if I've snorted some, but never any of this body odour/sheets/clothing story, and certainly nothing near some of the reports I've read. I remember the early reports from Scandanavia calling it 'crab' or giving it names of seafood on account of the smell. Never had any experience with anything like that.
> 
> Could it be a matter of different sources doing a better or worse job at synthesis? In which case, would it be feasible that incomplete synthesis could produce meph which is more toxic as a result of some undesirable (relative word when discussing mephedrone) chemicals still being in the mix?



yea we kind of found this too

better mephedrone didnt smell or taste as bad as i suppose it didnt have as much of the solvent left in it, just the pure stuff

but badly made stuff was sting-y, stinky and tasted gagworthy

doubting it was to do with what was cut with it, as it is the strong mephedrone smell/taste which is better/worse

also found the better stuff was a cleaner buzz


----------



## MeDieViL

.xbuzzybeex. said:


> i meant mephedrone, like not how you make it, but what actually is it?
> 
> doesnt sound like a stupid question to me?



Mephedrone = Methamphetamine with a ketone group on the beta position and a methyl group on the 4th position.

I wouldnt know what else to answer to this question lol? Mephedrone is mephedrone, like MDMA is MDMA.
Or do you know what solvents could be left in meph? I cant answer that one.


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

ahh i see, lol thats all i needed

i mean i know its not made out of natural stuff like i suppose coke is (ie coca plant) but yea...just kind of worried me that i didnt think about this before i sniffed it...

:S

cheers lovey xxx


----------



## fastandbulbous

Yerg said:


> Methylone produces a horrible horrible comedown. Totally not worthwhile IME.




I don't get a comedown off methylone, but then I think that's because it can''t be metabolized to alphamethyldopamine - plain & simple


----------



## 7zark7

frozenorange said:


> Could it be a matter of different sources doing a better or worse job at synthesis? In which case, would it be feasible that incomplete synthesis could produce meph which is more toxic as a result of some undesirable (relative word when discussing mephedrone) chemicals still being in the mix?



I think this is definitely the case. We had some smelly stuff months ago when we could first get our hands on it, but everything else since has been virtually odour-free. As I have said elsewhere, the very white, shard-like stuff has been the better quality - and that doesn't smell at all.


----------



## 7zark7

.xbuzzybeex. said:


> i meant mephedrone, like not how you make it, but what actually is it?



Eleven carbon atoms, fifteen hydrogen atoms, one nitrogen atom and one oxygen atom.


----------



## Oxymorphone

What's the deal with IVing it and safety/effects vs. other ROAs? I'm about to try some tonight.


----------



## fastandbulbous

7zark7 said:


> I think this is definitely the case. We had some smelly stuff months ago when we could first get our hands on it, but everything else since has been virtually odour-free. As I have said elsewhere, the very white, shard-like stuff has been the better quality - and that doesn't smell at all.




The main impurity from sloppy mephedrone synthesis is going to be 4-methyl-alphabromopropiophenone, which if alphabromopropiophenone is anything to go by, would be a severe lachrymator, not just a smelly compound (could be methylamine, but that smells like old fish). You'd certainly know if ant of the propiophenone was still present because it would be like being tear gassed


----------



## Scire

I'm of the opinion that meph doesn't make things smell; it just affects your sense of smell.


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

7zark7 said:


> Eleven carbon atoms, fifteen hydrogen atoms, one nitrogen atom and one oxygen atom.




cheers love  well odd stuff tho who'd ever thort to make it??


xxx


----------



## pofacedhoe

Scire said:


> I'm of the opinion that meph doesn't make things smell; it just affects your sense of smell.



well three weeks on my trousers still stink of meph!

also it does heighten your sense of smell even when you've been snorting loads, which seems counterintuitive to my experience with cocaine or insufflated mdma


----------



## Scire

pofacedhoe said:


> well three weeks on my trousers still stink of meph!
> 
> also it does heighten your sense of smell even when you've been snorting loads, which seems counterintuitive to my experience with cocaine or insufflated mdma



I mean only you can smell it. Meph seems to do something with my nose, I'm not sure I would call it damage, where it 'colours' the smell of everything. Only I can smell it, others don't seem to notice the strange smell.


----------



## pofacedhoe

Scire said:


> I mean only you can smell it. Meph seems to do something with my nose, I'm not sure I would call it damage, where it 'colours' the smell of everything. Only I can smell it, others don't seem to notice the strange smell.



see i find that maybe only users are accustomed to the smell-its quite a weird smell. when i first got mescaline cactus i couldn't barely tell there was a smell, now if a bag is open within ten feet i nearly hurl


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

i dunoo...it does make your sweat smell, if you stay clean afterwards ie shower the day after your usually alrite

but if you laze around like my bf...his sweat just stinks of it

yes it does affect your sense of smell but it definelty does come out in your sweat

cz i cant smell it until i smell his hands of his chest or something

lol and i found that bags with it kept in on a night out actually stink weeks afterwards :S

its icky




but i cant help but like it...sometimes


----------



## 65daysofstatic

My room and wallet permanently smell of it.


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

65daysofstatic said:


> My room and wallet permanently smell of it.



lmao, good bloody thing that only naughty people know that distinctive smell....

i put my passport in my mums bag a few weeks back, only remembering once it was in there that id use it as a litttle table on the way back from a night out

oops 

xxx


----------



## ebola?

i guess mephedrone is taken in VERY large quantities sometimes (1 gm + is a lot of 'stuff'), and thus it's plausible that enough would be excreted via sweat to stink.

ebola


----------



## MikeHawk

I definitely smell something bad in my sweat after having used Methylone, and Mephedrone is unlikey to be very different.  I only suffered the toxic effects described of Mephedrone when binging on Methylone.  Do they have the same metabolites?


----------



## winterrr

vecktor said:


> my comments in red, in short the whole treatise is a festering pile of contradictory self serving rubbish
> I can't believe I wasted 20minutes of my finite existance on this planet bothering to comment on this piece of crap.



hahahaa, whether what he said was bullshit or not
you definitely need to climb out your own arse


----------



## indelibleface

Phew, popular thread. 81,900 views.


----------



## vecktor

winterrr said:


> hahahaa, whether what he said was bullshit or not
> you definitely need to climb out your own arse



interesting user name.
and it is climb out _of_ my own arse 8)


----------



## Ultrapsyber

When I heard a friend discuss MCAT months ago, I was curious about it - but from what I've read, I see a lot more negatives/risks than positives... so I think I'll give it a miss, even though I have the chance to try this in a few days.

The thought of having my joints/skin turn purple/blue freaks me out... I hate the thought of that in itself - not to mention I have to go home after having had the meph so if I did get discolouration - how on earth do I explain what's wrong with me?   I have poor circulation so maybe this will be a factor that will make me more likely to get this as a side effect?

Yeah the idea of having something that feels like 'your first ever pill' sounds VERY tempting and something I'd dearly love to relive (that feeling!) and just having an MDMA feeling is something I haven't had in a good 6 months at least, but taking meph for that, just doesn't seem worth it (in my opinion anyway... if people enjoy it and haven't had any nasty effects that's great... I just hope it isn't doing long term damage).

Also, the fact that it is something that has pretty much had no research done on it, is enough to turn me off.  At least with the good ol' drugs such as acid and ecstasy, we have seen long term effects and there has been mountains of research done...  bring back MDMA I say!  Prohibiting substances like that are only causing people to turn to RCs with little/no known long term, short term or immediate effects, damaging or otherwise!


----------



## 7zark7

Ultrapsyber said:


> When I heard a friend discuss MCAT months ago, I was curious about it - but from what I've read, I see a lot more negatives/risks than positives... so I think I'll give it a miss, even though I have the chance to try this in a few days.



MCAT is *not* mephedrone... 8)


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

7zark7 said:


> MCAT is *not* mephedrone... 8)



isnt it?


----------



## SunnySideUp

Pretty sure MCat is Mephedrone.... 4MMC.. 4-methylmethcathinone... cat... Mcat... no?


----------



## immad

MCat = methcathinone = n-methyl-cathinone
Meph = *4-methyl-*n-methylcathinone = *4-methyl-*methcathinone = 4MMC, if you want to abbreviate it.


----------



## MeDieViL

SunnySideUp said:


> Pretty sure MCat is Mephedrone.... 4MMC.. 4-methylmethcathinone... cat... Mcat... no?



The real term is "miauw miauw".


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

ohh i spose i get it, but we still call 4mmc mcat, stil makes sense ishhh

xxx


----------



## 7zark7

MeDieViL said:


> The real term is "miauw miauw".



That's right!

4MMC = 4-miauw-miauw-cathinone...


----------



## Coolio

.xbuzzybeex. said:


> ohh i spose i get it, but we still call 4mmc mcat, stil makes sense ishhh
> 
> xxx



You must be ignorant then. Mcat is slang for methcathinone, and has been for decades. 4-methylmethcathinone is not methcathinone.


----------



## kken

MikeHawk said:


> I definitely smell something bad in my sweat after having used Methylone, and Mephedrone is unlikey to be very different.  I only suffered the toxic effects described of Mephedrone when binging on Methylone.  Do they have the same metabolites?




Butylone has this feature as well (but to a lesser degree at least for me). But who can binge on butylone ?


----------



## dread

MCAT = Methcathinone

MMCAT = Mephedrone

ok?


----------



## MikeHawk

Coolio said:


> You must be ignorant then. Mcat is slang for methcathinone, and has been for decades. 4-methylmethcathinone is not methcathinone.



It's hardly her who is ignorant.  Most people I know call it M-Cat too.  I don't bother correcting them.  Do you really think teenagers getting high on an RC they know nothing about are interested in the intricacies of the name?


----------



## Coolio

Well, they're ignorant of the history of the term 'mcat'. It's already established slang. If teenagers have decided to hijack decades-old slang and reuse it for a slightly different drug, they can't expect to come online and talk to people of all ages, some of whom have known "mcat" (as well as just "cat") is N-methylcathinone since the 80s.

What if they started calling it "coke"? I think we should tell them to stop misusing the slang.


----------



## pofacedhoe

i agree it will just make them know less about whats in their nose in future, when they're in A&E

especially when "my heart wont stop pounding"/"my feet are blue"/"everything has a face, and i mean EVERYTHING!"


----------



## MikeHawk

Coolio said:


> Well, they're ignorant of the history of the term 'mcat'. It's already established slang. If teenagers have decided to hijack decades-old slang and reuse it for a slightly different drug, they can't expect to come online and talk to people of all ages, some of whom have known "mcat" (as well as just "cat") is N-methylcathinone since the 80s.
> 
> What if they started calling it "coke"? I think we should tell them to stop misusing the slang.



I wasn't aware that MCat was abused in a large scale like Mephedrone.  From what I gather it's a bit of a shitty chem.


----------



## nolys

woah... im sorry can somebody clear this up for me?
i thought m-cat was mephedrone??


----------



## MeDieViL

nolys said:


> woah... im sorry can somebody clear this up for me?
> i thought m-cat was mephedrone??



No.
Mcat is methcathinone.


----------



## nolys

MeDieViL said:


> No.
> Mcat is methcathinone.



but mmcat is meph??


----------



## Coolio

MikeHawk said:


> I wasn't aware that MCat was abused in a large scale like Mephedrone.  From what I gather it's a bit of a shitty chem.



Methcathinone at one time was probably more popular than methamphetamine, especially in the USA and Russia. Before controls on precursors, it was way easier to homebake some methcathinone than it was to cook meth. There are still people who cook up methcathinone instead of methamphetamine with their Sudafed pills because it's easier.

If you hang out in the Midwest there are plenty of older guys who will rave about the good old days cookin mcat in their trailer.


----------



## vecktor

how about people start a separate thread on names and naming for 4-mmc? where people who actually give a shit can argue about it.


----------



## 7zark7

vecktor said:


> how about people start a separate thread on names and naming for 4-mmc? where people who actually give a shit can argue about it.



Yeah, they could do that - or people could point out the difference in the naming in the interests of harm reduction - which I thought was the ultimate aim of Bluelight?


----------



## shelty

just wondering....is trimethylamine used in the synthesis of this chem...if so is it posible that residual tma is responsible for its odor and possibly explain why only some experience  all those horrible side effects as a small portion of the population cannot metabolize trimethylamine properly (Trimethylaminuria)?


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

Coolio said:


> You must be ignorant then. Mcat is slang for methcathinone, and has been for decades. 4-methylmethcathinone is not methcathinone.



no coolio. not ignorant - many people call it this, frank calls it this http://www.talktofrank.com/drugs.aspx?id=3597

i understand that mcat is also meth but, people get confused with the whole meth/meph thing anyway

I know a lot of people who call it that. as long as we know we mean mephedrone and dont confuse people, surely no harm done?

as long as i tell them its mephedrone, and not methcathinone everything is okay. if they got confused and didnt no which one i was talking about they would ask.


----------



## Coolio

.xbuzzybeex. said:


> no coolio. not ignorant - many people call it this, frank calls it this http://www.talktofrank.com/drugs.aspx?id=3597



Frank is talking about methcathinone there, too. You linked to a page on 'cathinones'. Frank lists mephedrone, methylone, and MCAT as 3 separate drugs! The entire page isn't just about mephedrone.


----------



## 7zark7

Coolio said:


> Frank is talking about methcathinone there, too. You linked to a page on 'cathinones'. Frank lists mephedrone, methylone, and MCAT as 3 separate drugs! The entire page isn't just about mephedrone.



Even though there is a section that page where it does list all three as separate substances, it looks as if the page has been intentionally designed to be as confusing and misleading as possible. For example: the title of the document is MCAT, the heading at the top is Cathinones, there is a picture of mephedrone and a list of slang that has MCAT in with mephedrone.

Plus, it also says that 4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC) is known as mephedrone, but it laid out in such a way that it could also be known as methylone and MCAT.

Furthermore, it sneakily mixes up controlled substances and non-controlled substances in 'The Law' section.

Frank's a naughty boy...


----------



## Coolio

I think the list of slang is supposed to mean a list of slang terms for different cathinones... and they just forgot to add methylone in that list. Why don't they put bk-MDMA in the list of slang too? Not sure why the page title is MCAT though, that doesn't make sense.


----------



## kayenta

It's a UK government sponsored anti-drugs site, it's not supposed to make sense.


----------



## Bella Figura

TalktoFrank is filled with inaccuracies and misinformation, not really the best source to back up an argument :D

Using MCAT as a slang for Mephedrone is plain wrong and has caused confusion on BL when someone tries to get help about a Meph question and people think they're being asked a question about Methcathinone, seriously just call it Meph how hard is it? Saves people getting confused/being given bad information.



> i understand that mcat is also meth but, people get confused with the whole meth/meph thing anyway



which meth? methylone? methcathinone? methamp? I know which meph you're reffering to. see why clarity is a good thing?


----------



## Coolio

whoremoaning: don't forget that 'meth' could even mean methedrone, which is yet another one being used.


----------



## nolys

just call "mephedrone"; mephedrone... easy
if you cant manage that call it 4-mmc or meph...


----------



## ColtDan

...or drone


----------



## Repulse

7zark7 said:


> Even though there is a section that page where it does list all three as separate substances, it looks as if the page has been intentionally designed to be as confusing and misleading as possible. For example: the title of the document is MCAT, the heading at the top is Cathinones, there is a picture of mephedrone and a list of slang that has MCAT in with mephedrone.
> 
> Plus, it also says that 4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC) is known as mephedrone, but it laid out in such a way that it could also be known as methylone and MCAT.
> 
> Furthermore, it sneakily mixes up controlled substances and non-controlled substances in 'The Law' section.
> 
> Frank's a naughty boy...



Franks a retard then.  

Methylone = bk-MDMA
MCAT/MCat = Methcathinone
Mephedrone = 4-MMC


----------



## MeDieViL

PMA= Pussy Miauw


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

just saying that it puts 4MMC under the name MCAT, and that many people in the UK who want to find out about this will look under FRANK

i am totalllly not sayin that frank is always right, but for people who dont know drugs, of course they are gona look here!? and that is what they will find. its the only site that you can learn about drugs that is advertised.

methcathinone is pretty much unheard of round here so i dont see the harm if me and my mates want to call it MCAT between ourselves?

for the purposes of bluelight, fair enough, its mephedrone, but that wasnt the point that coolio was arguing with me about.

not sure why the hell your bothering to argue about it with me coolio and not sure why you had to call me ignorant? bit harsh mayte?

i wouldnt usually get riled up but bl is harm reduction, not "tell someone off when THEYYRRR DOIN IT RONGG and then argue with them about it"


----------



## boohigh

Homebaked methcathinone was popular in 80s and 90s years in USSR, under name "Mool'ka". Imagine you take 1 gram of ephedrine and get 60ml of this mulka, people were injecting 20cc units with big syringes.



Coolio said:


> Methcathinone at one time was probably more popular than methamphetamine, especially in the USA and Russia. Before controls on precursors, it was way easier to homebake some methcathinone than it was to cook meth. There are still people who cook up methcathinone instead of methamphetamine with their Sudafed pills because it's easier.
> 
> If you hang out in the Midwest there are plenty of older guys who will rave about the good old days cookin mcat in their trailer.


----------



## Coolio

How is calling someone ignorant telling them off? Ignorance means not knowing something. Whoever is calling mephedrone 'mcat' is simply unaware (ie. ignorant) of the history of the term.


----------



## 7zark7

Coolio said:


> How is calling someone ignorant telling them off? Ignorance means not knowing something. Whoever is calling mephedrone 'mcat' is simply unaware (ie. ignorant) of the history of the term.



I think that over here in the UK, the word 'ignorant' has more of an insulting slant to it - not just the literal definition - so people may take slight offence 


...but regarding the correct naming of mephedrone and drugs in particular: One of my main peeves with the 'facts' passed on, published, written, etc. about recrational drugs is the spreading of misinformation. It was misinformation that killed Leah Betts back in the 1990s, so - even if it sounds like I'm being pedantic or picky - I just think that nipping any incorrect details in the bud, before they become 'common knowledge', is a huge benefit to the harm reduction cause.


----------



## 7zark7

.xbuzzybeex. said:


> methcathinone is pretty much unheard of round here so i dont see the harm if me and my mates want to call it MCAT between ourselves?
> 
> for the purposes of bluelight, fair enough, its mephedrone, but that wasnt the point that coolio was arguing with me about.



A problem arises if you or one of your friends needs medical attention. Telling the doctor/paramedic/etc. that the person in need of help has had MCAT when they have actually had 4MMC might not be a good thing. Plus, if one person tells them meph and another tells the MCAT - they may think that the person has had both!

Also, if one of your unknowledgeable friends decides to go and get some meph for themselves and asks for/orders MCAT. They may not get what they actually want...


----------



## 7zark7

whoremoaning said:


> which meth? methylone? methcathinone? methamp? I know which meph you're reffering to. see why clarity is a good thing?



FWIW, meth to me is methamphetamine.

...and don't forget the opioid methadone in the list of alternative 'meths'


----------



## .xbuzzybeex.

rite just so were straight, just dont wana cause a fuss

but yea ignorant is pretty harsh here (uk) 

sorri for being a dick, hormones being a bit shitty atm, but thanks for letting me know

cant believe what i saw today as well, down it southend, there was a phone box with a piece of paper stuck to it saying

"MEPHEDRONE 24 HOURS
MEOW MEOW"
and a tel no with all its disclaimers on it

was kinda shocked about how open it all was!

i think meph is taking over the world...why doesnt MDMA take over instead? happy gurns


----------



## ebola?

MDMA is likely to be prohibited in your locale. . . 
...


> PMA= Pussy Miauw



I was beginning to feel like Vektor sounds until seeing this XD.

ebola


----------



## lovebrisvegas

Is Mephedrone toxic?

ITS NOT TOXIC ENOUGH %)%)%)%)%)%)

ALLRIGHHHHTTT


----------



## TheZon

I thought mephedrone was an amazing drug until I felt a pop in my head about 4 days after I did it (didn't even do very much, probably around half a gram). the pop was followed by an hour long headache, and I'm suspecting that the vasoconstriction coupled with an hour of moderate exercise caused a minor aneurysm to burst in my head... scary stuff considering it could have turned me into a total vegetable!


----------



## 7zark7

TheZon said:


> I thought mephedrone was an amazing drug until I felt a pop in my head about 4 days after I did it (didn't even do very much, probably around half a gram). the pop was followed by an hour long headache, and I'm suspecting that the vasoconstriction coupled with an hour of moderate exercise caused a minor aneurysm to burst in my head... scary stuff considering it could have turned me into a total vegetable!



Or it could have been this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_head_syndrome


----------



## MikeHawk

TheZon said:


> I thought mephedrone was an amazing drug until I felt a pop in my head about 4 days after I did it (didn't even do very much, probably around half a gram). the pop was followed by an hour long headache, and I'm suspecting that the vasoconstriction coupled with an hour of moderate exercise caused a minor aneurysm to burst in my head... scary stuff considering it could have turned me into a total vegetable!



I find that unlikely.  Even small aneurysms are quite debilitating.  My aunt has a small vein burst and was incredibly unwell for days.  I also think if it was going to cause a problem like that it would happen shortly afterwards, not 4 days!


----------



## enduin

For unlikely that is, I'd still suggest the guy to get checked nontheless. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## rwjh1979

Hey all, well i've been checking out bluelight for some time now and figured it's about time i posted something as some way of a contribution to the '' mephedrone  saga '' - I was doing meph for about 5 months last year - about once a week to once a fortnight - The first time i tried it i did maybe 2 small oral doses - probably about 75mgs in 2 lots orally - well i couldn't believe the high , really couldnt believe how good and CLEAN I felt- it was so similar to an MDMA high for me - something i had been searching for as I hadn't had a decent pill since New Year 2008 - after that everything was just bzp/mcpp/tmfpp crap and made me feel terrible (and mild but unpleasant hallucinations as well)so i stopped doing pills until i could find a decent type again (I'm still waiting!).....anyway each occasion I would have to take more and more 4MMC to reach desired effects until i got to the point where it was up to 500mgs per sesh (over the course of about 10 hours)...then i started to hear the horror stories and moved onto methylone round about xmas 2009.Things i noticed about  meph were1) alcohol + meph improved the experience and also helped the comedown - but i would only drink after the initial peak and that would bring me up again (2)tolerance developed quickly,(3) snorting made me feel a little dizzy at times (and initially does fell like being kicked in the nose)and was therefore undesirable so oral was the way to go for me (4) No purple limbs etc although increased anxiety was noticed at times including the odd 5 minute panic attack here and there (I suffer from anxiety anway)..and generally this would happen about 20 minutes after ingestion (5) on staggered doses up to 500mgs I also noted a weird almost psychotic state upon going to bed - very dark and chemical feeling - sleep would relieve this and i was able to sleep due to moderate alcohol and weed consumption (6) The more occasions i tried it the worse the comedowns were although these were no worse than some MDMA comedowns I have had (7) Never redose the day after - this resulted in anxiety and a complete disappointment as the effects were just not the same (8) I have had the powdered stuff and the crystal stuff and i would say they are both strong but the crystals more so (9) Also I have had the smelly stuff and stuff that had little smell at all - they both had strong effects but the smelly stuff DOES make you sweat that chemical smell out and you CAN smell it for days afterwards on your clothes, hands, bed etc- not a good thing with non-meph ladies lol (10) I am a big weed smoker and generally make it a rule not to do stims without weed, anyway i did have one night on meph without weed and it was just as good as it would have been with it which was a surprise at the time - although looking back i doubt i could really feel the weed before that anyway - more of a psychological thing I think (11) After the first few times on the day after i did feel slightly poisoned - so yes i do feel it is somewhat toxic (12)I Never experienced brain zaps in the days after thank god (13) I did experience mild chest pains once or twice - make of that what you will (14) I have asthma and generally did not feel any increased trouble due to meph (15) The first few times the euphoria was amazing - definitely as good or better than MDMA but too short lasting (16)  For me snorting was more like coke, while bombing was more like MDMA (17) Unless you are a total weed/hash head do not toke on meph comedowns as i found it made me feel worse although i still did it..........anyway funny thing is i still crave it a little but so far have resisted all desires to take more, I even crave the smell - a classic sign of addiction for me - I now take methylone once in a while - its more expensive, not as intense but more chilled and mdma like, and for some reason  i have to dose quite high - normally 250mgs x 2 over a night, sex is amazing and it really doesnt feel toxic although the comedowns leave me with no energy or motivation for about 12 hours..... all the people i know that have done meph have suffered no ill effects but there's always a risk I guess. the worst thing is if i could get decent MDMA i wouldn't  be trying RC's anyway - government policy and the mindset of the brain-washed general population suck - but until the MD situation improves for me I'll buy M1 ( no doubt they may ban M1 when the Meph ban finally happens as well and then it'll be back to violence inducing alcohol and over-priced smoke!).... hopefully people can take this knowledge and use it to for their own benefit....however for me , of all the drugs i have taken (MDMA, Coke, Amphetamines, cannabis/skunk etc ,mushrooms , bzp related stuff, LSA (HBW), opiates, benzos etc) have felt safer than Meph - this is just my opinion - be safe all!!! Let's hope i didnt make a nob of myself on my first post!


----------



## InvisibleEye

^ Thanks for sharing, don't worry about being a noob or not, but please ... spare our eyes and let us enjoy the beauty of _paragraphs_


----------



## mcatmademeregister

Well as you maybe guessed I registered to join in this thread and make a post.

Have been using mcat (this is what I call it among friends, looking at this thread and my source I think its now 4mmc) for a few months probably a total of 6-7 times. I smoked weed whilst I was in college (in the UK, so ages 16-18) and took E probably a total of 15 times in my life. Tried coke once or twice but in tiny quantities barely enough to feel any effect at all.

One of the problems with mcat is confusion over what it actually is - reading this thread mcat is NOT the same as mephedrone/4MMC, except 4MMC has the word methcathinone actually in it? Websites selling mcat/meph/4mmc etc (you see the problem) are seemingly calling whatever they sell multiple conflicting names. What I have says 4MMC on the bag and says it's mephedrone but also lists the street names for the drug on the website I purchased from.

Initially I thought this was a wonder drug, easy to get hold of, legal? pure?, certainly very cheap. It gives me a clean feeling high and the euphoria and empathy of E which I love without the long come up and nasty come down. I am starting to reconsider though - It makes my hearth thump unlike anything i've ever done. I tried a bit a couple of hours ago, scarily I noticed my hands and feet were cold and slightly blue at the same time as reading this thread. It seems very minor though but a scary effect to notice notheless, I certainly won't be doing any more for a while.

I am in the NE of England currently and can report it is spreading like wildfire here, especially within the last 4-5 months. It's gone from nobody knowing what it is to just about everyone I know that does drugs having tried it, being offered it in clubs, talking to other people in clubs who have had/are using it. Being able to buy it for a quater the price of other drugs, at a high level of purity, posted to your door next day from a convenient website is a big selling point. I am certain we will see more cases of use/abuse in the media being reported, to me it feels like its on the verge of becoming semi epidemic here although obviously I only have a tiny window into things.

Someone who knows more about the history of legal drugs in the UK or other countries - has there ever been anything that compares to this in strength, equivalent enjoyment of the user (ie a class A equivalent, crude I know but you understand what I mean) and most importantly price and availability before? I've been closeish to drug culture althought a light user for 6-7 years and have never heard anyone talk about anything legal like this before. Obviously I am only one person with isolated experience but part of me thinks this will become an really really big within a year or two if it isn't banned, maybe even seeping into circles that normally refuse drug use? I have heard of at least one old friend who was anti-drugs using this, probably because it's "legal". 

I haven't really done any other drug considered addictive at all, but to me mcat/4mmc/meph feels like an extremely addictive substance when you get going. My thoughts are changing on the drug severely, I have one big club night coming up for a friends birthday that I would like to do some on, from then on I can happily leave it completely, it feels inherently bad in a way E never did for me.

I know this is a long rambling awful first post but I thought I'd put down a few thoughts. I guess nothing is free and things that sound to good to be true probably are, feel glad I found this thread.


----------



## Coolio

Mephedrone is probably in a similar state as amphetamine salts were 50 years ago. Still legal, being abused widely, often by people who don't even know what it IS other than an "upper".


----------



## rwjh1979

I'd feel safer on phet though - although i try to avoid it due to nasty comedowns!


----------



## MikeHawk

I'm still surprised by how many people see Mephedrone as really dangerous when in actuality it's rather standard as regards to toxicity considering there's only one confirmed death and a HUGE amount of the world are using it.   This is based on the available anecdotal *evidence* as that's ALL we have.  

Yes, it could be bad for the heart valve due to 5HT2b agonism however MDMA is also a 5HT2b agonist and people consider that relatively safe.  Purple knee syndrome is without a doubt bad and is caused by people using far too much the majority of the time.

What I'm trying to say is, this drug is clearly harmful but some people's posts are completely unfounded when they say "I would never touch this".  It doesn't help debate and it certainly doesn't ring true when people on this forum admit to using TWO HUNDRED GRAMS a month.


----------



## rwjh1979

lol..200 grams a month is a little excessive


----------



## mcatmademeregister

Ok so as I said in my last post I had a small amount and then stopped last night. Much less than I normally take if I go out or get into it. Max I have had in 1 evening is probably 0.5g, most times i'ts been a few dabs though. I woke up this morning (took me ages to get to sleep but no surprise there) still with slightly cold feeling hands and feet and lower legs. Weirdly I seem to be a little more tanned (I still have some leftover tan from a hot holiday a few months ago which has been pumped up a bit) than before.

In the shower my hands, forearms and lower legs and feet look slightly redder than normal. This is after consuming a relatively small amount compared to someone having a session of the stuff. I don't think i've had this reaction before although I may simply have not noticed it as I wasn't looking out for it before i;d read some of this thread. I had 3 pints of beer before taking some last nite, but am normally not drinking when I do it. 

All I can say is it feels very odd to be more tanned and have the vascular effects ater having 2 lines last nite, likely I won't be touching the stuff ever again, the vascular feeling is unnerving considering I only had a small amount and could have taken much more.

In my opinion the purity (I assume it's pureish or close to it - bought from an online vendor) is partly why it's dangerous. Not being mixed in with a load of other crap allows a cleaner high and you can take more without feeling muggy. 

Anyone else with experience of a light case of the vascular effects? I goto the gym and have about 12% bodyfat and a fair amount of muscle at the moment which may make it effects more marked in me possibly? It does feel minor but is worrying, i'll see a doc if not gone in a week or two. Any ideas on how to remedy it?


----------



## rwjh1979

Pretty sure I had the same thing the day after - it didn't bother me too much as i'm sure i had the same thing with amphetamines years ago - probably best to give the 4MMC a break though and keep up the good diet and exercise! I noticed my skin felt drier and a little itchy afterwards as well


----------



## ColtDan

i started to get red knuckles and knees and slightly red toes after doing 500mg every weekend for 4 months, along with come downs and heart palpitations. also numb hands when i went to bed, pins and needles sometimes. after a few weeks it all returned to normal. until i stupidly did meph again


----------



## vecktor

MikeHawk said:


> I'm still surprised by how many people see Mephedrone as really dangerous when in actuality it's rather standard as regards to toxicity considering there's only one confirmed death and a HUGE amount of the world are using it.   This is based on the available anecdotal *evidence* as that's ALL we have.



you need to make the distinction between acute and long term toxicity. Dexfenfluramine has low acute toxicity, so do cox2 inhibitors, however both are highly dangerous long term.

We know about the long term adverse effects of ephedrine, and also know that mephedrone is metabolised into paramethylephedrine.  whilst ephedrine doesn't have much acute toxicity, it can be very harmful long term and there is no reason to expect para-methyl ephedrine to be any different.

The good news is that most of the case reports of cardiac and other problems caused by ephedrine seem to resolve themselves once ephedrine use is discontinued, so I would expect that on the whole the adverse effects of mephedrone will resolve themselves given time and ceasing mephedrone use.



> Yes, it could be bad for the heart valve due to 5HT2b agonism however MDMA is also a 5HT2b agonist and people consider that relatively safe.  Purple knee syndrome is without a doubt bad and is caused by people using far too much the majority of the time.



this is a non arguament, MDMA is not consumed at the kind of doses typical for mephedrone nor is it consumed repeatedly for the length of time typical with mephedrone use, Whether there is any 2b agonism caused by mephedrone is unknown, IMHO the 2b agonism aspect is a red herring. 
As you say there is a plethora of anecdotal evidence, some negative some positive. however there are reports of the blue knee syndrome at low doses.



> What I'm trying to say is, this drug is clearly harmful but some people's posts are completely unfounded when they say "I would never touch this".  It doesn't help debate and it certainly doesn't ring true when people on this forum admit to using TWO HUNDRED GRAMS a month.



People are entitled to their opinion especially when is comes to what they choose to ingest. They can look at the available evidence, or  lack of perhaps they can decide that the absence of evidence of harm is not evidence of absence of harm. Or they can choose to take the chance, either is valid and depends more on your life philosophy than anything else.

From the beginning my position has been be careful with this stuff, moderate consumption and allow wash out time and this in the absence of any decent toxicology data is strict harm minimisation.

A personal cost benefit analysis means  I wouldn't touch this stuff, even moderate use, but that is my call.  You can argue your position wrt mephedrone all you like, but actually your position is irrelevant to me. Don't expect others to validate your position and offer comforting support,  it is your own call ,you make it, it is your body and you alone face the consequences if your call is wrong.

if there is one take home message from this post  it is :

*
if you choose to take mephedrone you should be aware you are taking a chance and should  moderate consumption, just in case*


----------



## 8ft-Sativa

It's great stuff and i'm doing 200mg once a weekend, no problem so far. I just don't snort it so it's less addictive also the stimulant affects last the better part of a day, even the next day I feel a little speedy.

But I may stop as i'm worried about any psychological problems like panic attacks or brain damage that may surface.

I'm taking Vitamin B complex, fish oil and fruits and veges everyday to help minimise any possible damage.


----------



## MikeHawk

vecktor said:


> this is a non arguament, MDMA is not consumed at the kind of doses typical for mephedrone nor is it consumed repeatedly for the length of time typical with mephedrone use, Whether there is any 2b agonism caused by mephedrone is unknown, IMHO the 2b agonism aspect is a red herring.
> As you say there is a plethora of anecdotal evidence, some negative some positive. however there are reports of the blue knee syndrome at low doses.



Most of your post I agree with but this I take issue with.

Just because the dose of Mephedrone is higher does not make any bit of difference.  Bromo-DragonFLY is consumed at very low doses and can cause fatal Vasoconstriction.  Dose is entirely relative.

Another point is that the effects of MDMA last longer than they do for Mephedrone.  I'd assume this means the 5HT2b receptor is being agonised for longer from a single dose.

I'm not saying 2b agonism is bad or not but your arguments for MDMA being less dangerous in this respect are not concrete.


----------



## mcatmademeregister

3 nights on since I had some sort of reaction to the roughly 50-100mg mephedrone I had. 

My hands and feet are still quite pink, as are my calves and knees when I have a shower. I don't think I have a particularly bad case but it it feels like its going to take a long time to go away. If there is no change at all within a week i'll see my doctor although i'm not sure what they'll be able to do? It's not causing me any acute pain or distress but it's not pleasant to see the cirulation so obviously affected by a small amount of the drug.

Can anyone else who's had this sort of problem report back on any progress they've made, do they still have it, how long did it take to go etc? Any word would be greatly appreciated. 

All I can say is stay the fuck away from meph people, I estimate I took probably 2g in total over the course of 3-4 months and am now wondering how long i'll be stuck with this dodgy circulation for. Hoping it's not permanent is all I can do right now.


----------



## MikeHawk

mcatmademeregister said:


> 3 nights on since I had some sort of reaction to the roughly 50-100mg mephedrone I had.
> 
> My hands and feet are still quite pink, as are my calves and knees when I have a shower. I don't think I have a particularly bad case but it it feels like its going to take a long time to go away. If there is no change at all within a week i'll see my doctor although i'm not sure what they'll be able to do? It's not causing me any acute pain or distress but it's not pleasant to see the cirulation so obviously affected by a small amount of the drug.
> 
> Can anyone else who's had this sort of problem report back on any progress they've made, do they still have it, how long did it take to go etc? Any word would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> All I can say is stay the fuck away from meph people, I estimate I took probably 2g in total over the course of 3-4 months and am now wondering how long i'll be stuck with this dodgy circulation for. Hoping it's not permanent is all I can do right now.



I had circulatory issues from Methylone that caused me tingling and numbness.  I also had slightly purple extremeties and red genitalia with some discharge (lovely!).

I'm pleased to say after a month of abstinence from beta ketones I've not noticed circulatory issues although I've noticed the wrist of my right hand sometimes goes rather red but I'm not sure if this is related.

I am probably going to be taking some Mephedrone this weekend and am going to try 100mg the first time and note if circulatory issues come back (even though they originally came from Methylone).  I'll report back on the details.

I wouldn't worry yourself about it too much as nobody fully understands what causes the blue skin.  People largely agree now that it probably isn't just vasoconstriction and that it may be a specific form of vasculitus caused by a metabolite.  Some argue that the purple/blue skin dies rather quickly and peels off in the following weeks.  I have noticed that the skin on my wrist is peeling off slightly and this may be why.


----------



## enduin

mcatmademeregister said:


> 3 nights on since I had some sort of reaction to the roughly 50-100mg mephedrone I had.
> 
> My hands and feet are still quite pink, as are my calves and knees when I have a shower. I don't think I have a particularly bad case but it it feels like its going to take a long time to go away. If there is no change at all within a week i'll see my doctor although i'm not sure what they'll be able to do? It's not causing me any acute pain or distress but it's not pleasant to see the cirulation so obviously affected by a small amount of the drug.
> 
> Can anyone else who's had this sort of problem report back on any progress they've made, do they still have it, how long did it take to go etc? Any word would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> All I can say is stay the fuck away from meph people, I estimate I took probably 2g in total over the course of 3-4 months and am now wondering how long i'll be stuck with this dodgy circulation for. Hoping it's not permanent is all I can do right now.



You might wanna check out the mephedrone long term side effects thread here
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=457690

It could take from weeks to several months to clear up, but it seems everyone agree it'll eventually go away, or improve anyway. In the meantime going to the doc and having a check up can be a good idea, but don't expect he'll be able to tell you anything. Even the worst cases didn't show anything at the regular analysis, BUT you'll be sure nothing really dangerous is going on with your heart. It's the classic better safe than sorry. 
Panicking now is useless, but being serious about taking care of your body and try to make it recover is a must IMHO. This means get checked if necessary, stay the fuck away not only from meph but from every other stimulant at least for some months, eat healthy and exercise. 

Also the last part of Mike's post I'm finding hard time to give it a sense: you say the guy doesn't need to worry because a drug causes a strong and clearly noticeable side effect but no one knows why??? WTF? I think it's quite the opposite, if you got a side effect but you know what are the causes and what it is then you can be cool with it, but if it's something you have no idea about it and how dangerous it is you are damn right to be concerned! 

Of course this is not for jumping on the "meph is evil" bandwagon, we are doing harm minimization here right? Not some kind of drug pro/againt propaganda.


----------



## MikeHawk

enduin said:


> Also the last part of Mike's post I'm finding hard time to give it a sense: you say the guy doesn't need to worry because a drug causes a strong and clearly noticeable side effect but no one knows why??? WTF? I think it's quite the opposite, if you got a side effect but you know what are the causes and what it is then you can be cool with it, but if it's something you have no idea about it and how dangerous it is you are damn right to be concerned!
> 
> Of course this is not for jumping on the "meph is evil" bandwagon, we are doing harm minimization here right? Not some kind of drug pro/againt propaganda.



I didn't mean don't take care of yourself.  I meant that panicking over a side effect that many people have reported and gotten over is counterproductive.  Nobody knows for sure what causes the blueness but people who have done research and experienced it agree it's not vasoconstriction alone.  Vasoconstriction involves pain and muscle cramps and my problems involved no muscle cramps or pain whatsoever.  Some people speculate a metabolite may cause a specific type of vasculitus and right now I think that's the most likely hypothesis.

Of course not knowing is concerning but we DO know people who've had this issue tend to have normal BP, normal pulse and a normal ECG.  If it was very dangerous vitals would be changed.  I agree he should lay off Mephedrone and stimulants.  For Gods sake this is a research chemical and of course we don't know the details about effects and toxicity.  If you're going to worry about not understanding a drug, why are you taking it in the first place?


----------



## Full Effect

The vasoconstriction paranoia is pretty ridiculous to be honest, it's all you seem to hear about slightest pins and needles and it's panic stations, geez everyone gets pins and needles from time to time and cold feet ? It's the coldest sodding winter in 31 years in the UK.


----------



## enduin

MikeHawk said:


> I didn't mean don't take care of yourself.  I meant that panicking over a side effect that many people have reported and gotten over is counterproductive.  Nobody knows for sure what causes the blueness but people who have done research and experienced it agree it's not vasoconstriction alone.  Vasoconstriction involves pain and muscle cramps and my problems involved no muscle cramps or pain whatsoever.  Some people speculate a metabolite may cause a specific type of vasculitus and right now I think that's the most likely hypothesis.
> 
> Of course not knowing is concerning but we DO know people who've had this issue tend to have normal BP, normal pulse and a normal ECG.  If it was very dangerous vitals would be changed.  I agree he should lay off Mephedrone and stimulants.  For Gods sake this is a research chemical and of course we don't know the details about effects and toxicity.  If you're going to worry about not understanding a drug, why are you taking it in the first place?



Now we agree, I was the first saying panicking is useless, and of course when you introduce a RC in your body you have to take your responsibilities. Like Vektor said it's about acute and long term toxicity, you clearly are not gonna die after getting purple knees. Still the long term effects are unknown and like another guy here pointed out people seems to be much more reckless with meph's side effects than with most (if not any) other drug...


----------



## MeDieViL

So, how much fucking longer is it gonna take before this compound is being researched?


----------



## ebola?

...multiple decades if no one does said research before it's banned.

ebola


----------



## vecktor

somebody has to pay for the research. There is some academic work being done on it but it is under resourced.


----------



## MeDieViL

Wasnt the UK goverment gonna do studies on it? I tought they needed evidence it was toxic before they could make it illegal? Not sure about that tough.


----------



## MikeHawk

MeDieViL said:


> Wasnt the UK goverment gonna do studies on it? I tought they needed evidence it was toxic before they could make it illegal? Not sure about that tough.



Cannabis is class B.  There was no evidence (and still isn't) that Cannabis is toxic.


----------



## ebola?

I'm a Yank, from the land of hasty drug prohibition and geographical myopia.


----------



## MikeHawk

Hey.  I have a question regarding the beta ketones and Mephedrone in relation to them.

I've now tried Mephedrone, Methylone and MDPV a few times and for some peculiar reason.  I have heart pain after using MDPV and Methylone yet Mephedrone does not cause this.  I also do not get numbness on Mephedrone but DO get it on Methylone and MDPV.  Of course I understand Mephedrone is renowned for the toxic effects like these and as such I am confused why I get them on less toxic substances but not the "worst".

My heart also beats less rapidly on Mephedrone than on Methylone/MDPV.  Is mild chest pain common after Methylone/MDPV usage?  Is it common after Mephedrone usage?

Would appreciate opinions.


----------



## vortex30

Chest pain after MDPV is a huge issue for me especially if re-dosing regarding chest pain. Methylone, I've never had a problem but my Methylone sessions have been a single dose, most was 250mg. As for Mephedrone, I reckon a small session of 250-300mg wouldn't cause much issue, but when I do 1-2+g I can really feel the strain on my heart. So are you binging the mephedrone?


----------



## MikeHawk

vortex30 said:


> Chest pain after MDPV is a huge issue for me especially if re-dosing regarding chest pain. Methylone, I've never had a problem but my Methylone sessions have been a single dose, most was 250mg. As for Mephedrone, I reckon a small session of 250-300mg wouldn't cause much issue, but when I do 1-2+g I can really feel the strain on my heart. So are you binging the mephedrone?



I've never exceeded 800mg in a session of Mephedrone.  I'm on it for the first time in about a month at the moment and have not had any indications of vasoconstriction like I do on even low doses of MDPV and Methylone.  I suppose these drugs affect my body differently to most people.

Tonight I've probably had about 500mg so far and am just about to have my last dose for the night.  Will report anything interesting.


----------



## Coolio

Full Effect said:


> The vasoconstriction paranoia is pretty ridiculous to be honest, it's all you seem to hear about slightest pins and needles and it's panic stations, geez everyone gets pins and needles from time to time and cold feet ? It's the coldest sodding winter in 31 years in the UK.



Uh, no. If you get pins and needles from time to time, you probably need to see a doctor. That's a sign of poor circulation and you may have cardiovascular health issues. Healthy people NEVER feel that unless they cut off blood flow to a limb by sitting on it for a while.


----------



## MikeHawk

My pins and needles only happened during and after my Methylone binge by the way.


----------



## 7zark7

Coolio said:


> Uh, no. If you get pins and needles from time to time, you probably need to see a doctor. That's a sign of poor circulation and you may have cardiovascular health issues. Healthy people NEVER feel that unless they cut off blood flow to a limb by sitting on it for a while.



Umm... pins and needles (Paresthesia) can be caused by many things, not just poor circulation.

I have had frequent numbness, paresthesia, itching, crawling sensations in right thigh / groin area for years. Had many visits to my GP and many tests, including an MRI scan, and everything is negative. In the end, my GP just said that it is probably just how I am built. In other words, he didn't seem too concerned about it!


----------



## EFC18

I am of the opinion that mephedrone has a fairly significant effect on blood flow


----------



## solly

^ because?


----------



## Repulse

Would N2O have use as a short vasodilater?


----------



## daos

what would be the joint effect of mephedrone and gbl on the synapse?


----------



## MattPsy

Destruction.
Haha, well maybe.
WHICH synapse? A GABAergic one? A dopaminergic one? A serotonergic one?
The first statement might be correct in regards to a serotonergic one, since mephedrone shares a similar method of action with MDMA, and GBL probably increases neurotoxicity with MDMA due to higher dopamine levels leading to oxidative stress during MAO destruction.


----------



## 7zark7

Repulse said:


> Would N2O have use as a short vasodilater?



I would have thought so, but as mentioned in the post regarding Ginkgo Biloba, it will also dilate the blood vessels in the brain, maybe leading to an increased risk of neurotoxicity from the dug.


----------



## alex1236

MeDieViL said:


> Wasnt the UK goverment gonna do studies on it? I tought they needed evidence it was toxic before they could make it illegal? Not sure about that tough.



Dont think they did any tests on MDMA did they?

This stuff i got was called 4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC)  

Is this not Mephedrone?  I thought it was was mephedrone and slang for it is MCat.  Clearly its methcathinone, not mcat

Is Methedrone differenet to Mephedrone?

How does Mephedrone differ to the stuff i have been taking - Methcathinone?

The website I bought the stuff off says 'Buy Mephedrone plant food online'  What arrived says '4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC)' on it?!

Confusing!?


----------



## nolys

alex1236 said:


> Dont think they did any tests on MDMA did they?
> 
> This stuff i got was called 4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC)
> 
> Is this not Mephedrone?  I thought it was was mephedrone and slang for it is MCat.  Clearly its methcathinone, not mcat
> 
> Is Methedrone differenet to Mephedrone?
> 
> How does Mephedrone differ to the stuff i have been taking - Methcathinone?
> 
> The website I bought the stuff off says 'Buy Mephedrone plant food online'  What arrived says '4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC)' on it?!
> 
> Confusing!?



yeah mate 4-mmc IS Me(p)hedrone, not me(t)hedrone. They are 2 seperate drugs


----------



## 7zark7

alex1236 said:


> I thought it was was mephedrone and slang for it is MCat.  Clearly its methcathinone, not mcat
> 
> Is Methedrone differenet to Mephedrone?
> 
> How does Mephedrone differ to the stuff i have been taking - Methcathinone?
> 
> The website I bought the stuff off says 'Buy Mephedrone plant food online'  What arrived says '4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC)' on it?!
> 
> Confusing!?



Hurrah for the media! 8)




Which reminds me... has anyone seen this yet? Comments? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJnr8b526o0


----------



## rpm

MeDieViL said:


> Wasnt the UK goverment gonna do studies on it? I tought they needed evidence it was toxic before they could make it illegal? Not sure about that tough.



Er, that would have to be nonsense or spin. If drug laws where based on toxicity then .....


----------



## Dresden

Mephedrone is more toxic than acetylsalicylic acid, ibuprofen, naproxen sodium, docusonate sodium, sodium bicarbonate, sennosides, diphenhydramine, and dextromethorphan but less toxic than isotretoin, haloperidol, quietiapine, olanzapine, sumatriptan, prednisone, seconal, alpha-methylsufentanil, oxycodone, and thalidomide.

The most common side effect is a reversible headache and occurs half of all users of the drug.  Its most serious cosmetic side effect is vasocontriction of the blood vessels of the body's extremities causing them to turn blue temporarily; this side effect occurs in about 15% of users.  Idiosyncratic sudden death of the mdma type occurs at about the same rate as seen with that drug (approximately 1 death per several million usages or so).


----------



## 7zark7

Dresden said:


> Mephedrone is more toxic than acetylsalicylic acid, ibuprofen, naproxen sodium, docusonate sodium, sodium bicarbonate, sennosides, diphenhydramine, and dextromethorphan but less toxic than isotretoin, haloperidol, quietiapine, olanzapine, sumatriptan, prednisone, seconal, alpha-methylsufentanil, oxycodone, and thalidomide.
> 
> The most common side effect is a reversible headache and occurs half of all users of the drug.  Its most serious cosmetic side effect is vasocontriction of the blood vessels of the body's extremities causing them to turn blue temporarily; this side effect occurs in about 15% of users.  Idiosyncratic sudden death of the mdma type occurs at about the same rate as seen with that drug (approximately 1 death per several million usages or so).



Is that your own opinion or have you quoted it from somewhere else?


----------



## Dresden

The style is lifted from any monograph from the physcian's desk reference, but since mephedrone is new, I simply wrote my professional opinion.  My name is Andrew McNair Pennington.  That's who wrote it.


----------



## Dresden

The 15 and 50 percent figures appeared in a study floating around out here in cyberspace somewhere.  You could find out if u tried.


----------



## vecktor

^ totally useless with no scientific basis whatsoever.

monographs are written after the drug is approved after it passes phase 3 trials and also usually incorporate the yellow card information too


----------



## Dresden

Permite repetir por favor senor:  the 15 and 30 figures came from a published study on the preliminary efffects of mephedrone while the rest of the paragraph is just a connection of words that someone wrote because that's what they thought (def. an 'opinion').  You werent supposed to like it or not like it and even most doctors dont read many pdr monographs so it may have slipped right on past your membranes stylistically there little buddy.  Finally the raver kid simply asked me who wrote it so I told him the answer.


----------



## opiaddict

I agree with vecktor in some areas, and some of the other is true. But the term cascade I have never heard of, although he might be referring to electron transfer. The only thing I can think if which even emulates the term is in photosynthesis and cell respiration. The double   CH3 on carbon 1,4 (not alpha) would make it dipolar and have no activity.


----------



## 7zark7

Dresden said:


> Finally the raver kid simply asked me who wrote it so I told him the answer.



Is that me, the kid? %)

I asked if it was opinion, or whether it had been copied and pasted from somewhere (because that's how it read). So it was your opinion, based on some figures from study.

I have searched for said study and there main reference I can find to those figures is apparently from research at the National Addiction Centre at Kings College, London - quote on this PDF here: http://ussu.info/files/UNISEXMephedrone.pdf

I have since searched the website of Kings College, but cannot find a thing about mephedrone... so I'll take those figures with a pinch of salt.


EDIT: further reading seems to suggest that those figures were from an online poll of 2,222 readers of the clubbing magazine Mixmag. http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/health/newsid_10000000/newsid_10004300/10004366.stm

Great.


----------



## vecktor

opiaddict said:


> I agree with vecktor in some areas, and some of the other is true. But the term cascade I have never heard of, although he might be referring to electron transfer. The only thing I can think if which even emulates the term is in photosynthesis and cell respiration. The double   CH3 on carbon 1,4 (not alpha) would make it dipolar and have no activity.



cascade as far as I can determine is nonsense, the person who originated it was a vendor trying to justify his product by clutching at random pseudoscience.


----------



## Dresden

I did a g of 4MMC last Wed and now I'm having trouble lifting the fore areas of my feet as well as usual when walking.  No causality proved but I wish I hadnt done that now.  

This is how a lot of new drugs go down the road to perdition in pharmacology and achieve the dreaded black box label.


----------



## Doll

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello, I am a journalism student and am looking for someone who has had an extreme experience with mephedrone.

I would like to possibly video interview this person, and use all content within my studies.

Anyone willing to help me out would be much appreciated.

Although I am looking for the most extreme of experiences or situations. Such as a trip to a&e, or a week long meph binge.

Thank you


----------



## jeopardyrock

Doll said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Hello, I am a journalism student and am looking for someone who has had an extreme experience with mephedrone.
> 
> I would like to possibly video interview this person, and use all content within my studies.
> 
> Anyone willing to help me out would be much appreciated.
> 
> Although I am looking for the most extreme of experiences or situations. Such as a trip to a&e, or a week long meph binge.
> 
> Thank you


Go try it yourself!


----------



## vecktor

Doll said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Hello, I am a journalism student and am looking for someone who has had an extreme experience with mephedrone.
> 
> I would like to possibly video interview this person, and use all content within my studies.
> 
> Anyone willing to help me out would be much appreciated.
> 
> Although I am looking for the most extreme of experiences or situations. Such as a trip to a&e, or a week long meph binge.
> 
> Thank you


I read this and saw:
-----------
hello I am a journalist and I would like to further sensationalise the mephedrone story without bothering to think or do any background study whatsoever as there is nothing like jumping on a band wagon and we journalists are lazy useless oxygen wasters.

I would like to video interview someone naive, and for this person to prostitute themselves  for me and give me  material that I can edit twist and butcher so it bears no resemblance to what was actually said
-----------

I think I need to get my eyes checked.


----------



## MattPsy

Shit, me too. Blame mephedrone for this too, of course.
Wouldn't want science to get in the way of a good sensationalist story!


----------



## vortex30

vecktor said:


> I read this and saw:
> -----------
> hello I am a journalist and I would like to further sensationalise the mephedrone story without bothering to think or do any background study whatsoever as there is nothing like jumping on a band wagon and we journalists are lazy useless oxygen wasters.
> 
> I would like to video interview someone naive, and for this person to prostitute themselves  for me and give me  material that I can edit twist and butcher so it bears no resemblance to what was actually said
> -----------
> 
> I think I need to get my eyes checked.



You're the best, mate! Hahaha, thought the exact same thing! 

No offense meant if you're really a student trying to make it in a journalism career, but how about reporting on more worldly, ambitious and worthwhile stories contained in the study of human rights and politics, etc. rather than becoming a 'journalist' who reports on drugs for the Daily Mail.


----------



## Dresden

You could also try researching all aspects of your story rather than just seeking out the most sensational ones.  I would consider letting you interview me then were that the case.  

The most meph I've done in one run is 3 g's btw.  Does that qualify or is it not extreme enough?  Even then, the effects were not nearly as horrifying as some of the less memorable shroom or lsd trips I've had.

Again, tho, comparing pea's to indoles is a non-comparison imo, like comparing apples to oranges, really.


----------



## I NUK3D U

That re-work of the journalists post was a piece of literary genius...


----------



## girlygrrl

MeDieViL said:


> How would viagra work to counteract the vasoconstriction?



Because it basically does the opposite of vasoconstriction, by expanding your blood vessels to improve blood flow to extremities.

My doctor has prescribes it to me to treat Reynaud's Phenominon that I occasionally get attacks of.  If I take 5mg of it when I'm having an attack the vasoconstriction goes away.  

Not sure how it would affect males, but AFAIK a dose for ED is more like 50mg.


----------



## nolys

does anyone know if fleph, buph and naph, and methylone will be banned alongside meph?


----------



## pofacedhoe

vecktor said:


> I read this and saw:
> -----------
> hello I am a journalist and I would like to further sensationalise the mephedrone story without bothering to think or do any background study whatsoever as there is nothing like jumping on a band wagon and we journalists are lazy useless oxygen wasters.
> 
> I would like to video interview someone naive, and for this person to prostitute themselves  for me and give me  material that I can edit twist and butcher so it bears no resemblance to what was actually said
> -----------
> 
> I think I need to get my eyes checked.



epic lol!


----------



## nolys

Apparently meph will be banned by april the 16th for anyone who is interested along with all other cathinones


----------



## spacefacethebassace

Hooray, we can all go back to using real drugs. Meow

/apologies for pointless post


----------



## ebola?

mmm...I don't think that naph' will qualify as an analogue of methcathinone...nor will it for 4mmc...too bad it appears to suck.


----------



## Nagelfar

nolys said:


> Apparently meph will be banned by april the 16th for anyone who is interested along with all other cathinones



Is this to put that '*NO SOURCES - nuke*' out of business? They'd be wise to open their registration for the final month of one of their main products (maybe all of their products?) and take advantage of making the profit they may never get back (or take the last of whatever profit they may ever have)


----------



## 7zark7

spacefacethebassace said:


> Hooray, we can all go back to using real drugs. Meow
> 
> /apologies for pointless post



Hurrah. Now we can go back to being criminals again... 8)


I don't get this almost snobbish attitude to meph that seems to be noticeable in a number of posters on here... people saying that they are glad it's being banned and treating the substance and its consumers like a lower-class drug users.


----------



## infestedpasta

7zark7 said:


> Hurrah. Now we can go back to being criminals again... 8)
> 
> 
> I don't get this almost snobbish attitude to meph that seems to be noticeable in a number of posters on here... people saying that they are glad it's being banned and treating the substance and its consumers like a lower-class drug users.



Yes, I agree. i think it's stupid.

All drugs started out as research chems.


----------



## theotherside

^^^^^I agree. Mephedrone is an amazing drug as far as I'm concerned, despite it being cardio-toxic, I can't stand how it is treated on these threads. Why would anyone want someone's right to have a beautiful substance delivered to their doors is beyond me.


----------



## dread

Mephedrone is absolute shit and everyone would be better off if it would never have been invented, in my honest opinion.


----------



## MikeHawk

It's not absolute shit in the efficacy of a high sense.  It's a very potent entactogen.  It's popular because it's good.  Unfortunately it's probably unhealthy but that doesn't make a drug shit instantly.  It's probably a little more toxic than alcohol at the rate of sensible use (IE 500mg once a week) compared to 21 units of alcohol a week.  

I enjoy the high.  It sucks it's getting banned objectively.  But subjectively it's a good thing, I use it too much.

Also, yes, all the cathinones that are popular are getting banned.  Even Buphedrone is getting banned.


----------



## enduin

That the high out of meph is amazing I can agree on but that is slightly more dangerous than alcohol I can't help but say that it's absolute BS. I've never seen any bad reaction like purple knees and heart issues after a few drinks, which is the equivalent of a responsible and moderate meph use. I should probably say that I've never seen such bad reactions after a responsible and moderate use with any drug, but I don't feel I have enough of experience with drugs to say that.

Then, my personal opinion is that anyone is free to do whatever he wants with his body, you can also eat cyanide trying to catch a high if you like, I'd still have nothing against it, but please don't say "meph is not that bad".


----------



## SpiritualHealing

Honestly I know about 20 4-MMC users of different age and gender and none of them ever had purple knees or heart problems even after consuming up to - or over 1 gram of it. On the other side I know more than 50 persons which puked after drinking too much and had weird side effects the next day. I also never heard of a girl that has been drug raped after taking 4-MMC. But nearly all "normal" rapes happen to girls after getting drunk. Sad enough that newspapers just write about GBL/GHB as the "date rape drug no.1" but not about alcohol. Alcohol is one of the main reasons for cancer disease and other health problems... and it´s also very addictive. Sure 4-MMC may be more addictive but the primary side effects aren´t as weird as with a high dose of alcohol.


----------



## MikeHawk

I never said it's not that bad.  Alcohol is fucking bad.  That's my point.


----------



## SpiritualHealing

I don´t want to relativize the danger but people should consider this when talking about toxicity of drugs in general.


----------



## MikeHawk

Anybody have any idea about how effective a low dose of Codeine would be to battle vasoconstriction?  I've heard that Codeine is a peripheral vasodilator.

On a slightly related note.  It appears that even a small dose like 150mg of Mephedrone will give my knees a slight purple hue with noticable redding.  It appears to be an affect that aggregates over time because I've never had this before.  It could just be because I've moved house and this house is considerably colder, but I'm not sure how much temperature would be implicated.


----------



## MikeHawk

Okay I'm done with Mephedrone.  I was by no means a reglular user.  My cumulitive dosage over 3 months is probably just shy of 8grams but it's undoubtedly done me harm.  My resting heart rate has gone from a healthy 60bpm to about 88bpm and I dread to think what it's done to my BP.  A 220mg dose just gives me slightly purple knees and bronchodilation.  I'm barely even stimulated at this dose yet vasoconstriction still raises it's ugly head.

I really do warn people that this substance is insidious unlike anything else.  The first times are great but now it just is buzzless, barely stimulating and just an anxious ride the whole way through.  I hope my health returns to normal soon.  Note that my RHR was 60bpm even after I consumed my first 5grams, I believe a bad synthesis may have contributed to my last 5 grams yielding little effect except vasoconstriction.


----------



## 7zark7

MikeHawk said:


> A 220mg dose just gives me slightly purple knees and bronchodilation.



OK, I had to look it up: bronchodilation - a widening of the lumen of the bronchi, allowing increased airflow to and from the lungs.

How do you know this happens?


----------



## MikeHawk

7zark7 said:


> OK, I had to look it up: bronchodilation - a widening of the lumen of the bronchi, allowing increased airflow to and from the lungs.
> 
> How do you know this happens?



Simply put, breathing becomes markedly easier and rather pleasant.  It occurs with all stims.  It's what epinepherine does for asthmatics.


----------



## slackhands

MikeHawk said:


> Anybody have any idea about how effective a low dose of Codeine would be to battle vasoconstriction?  I've heard that Codeine is a peripheral vasodilator.
> 
> On a slightly related note.  It appears that even a small dose like 150mg of Mephedrone will give my knees a slight purple hue with noticable redding.  It appears to be an affect that aggregates over time because I've never had this before.  It could just be because I've moved house and this house is considerably colder, but I'm not sure how much temperature would be implicated.



No offence but you sound like a little queer. Also you contradicted yourself on your previous alcohol/meph comment. Just dont like people who write bollocks really; nothing at all personal chap.


----------



## slackhands

MikeHawk said:


> Okay I'm done with Mephedrone.  I was by no means a reglular user.  My cumulitive dosage over 3 months is probably just shy of 8grams but it's undoubtedly done me harm.  My resting heart rate has gone from a healthy 60bpm to about 88bpm and I dread to think what it's done to my BP.  A 220mg dose just gives me slightly purple knees and bronchodilation.  I'm barely even stimulated at this dose yet vasoconstriction still raises it's ugly head.
> 
> I really do warn people that this substance is insidious unlike anything else.  The first times are great but now it just is buzzless, barely stimulating and just an anxious ride the whole way through.  I hope my health returns to normal soon.  Note that my RHR was 60bpm even after I consumed my first 5grams, I believe a bad synthesis may have contributed to my last 5 grams yielding little effect except vasoconstriction.



Dude, ffs you've only done 8 grams. If anything it takes someone a few times to take a drug to get the benefits. Well this is true for me haven taken a whole array of different drugs.

I think you jump to conclusions far too quickly. It sounds more probable that the bad synthesis you suspected, would be why you believe meph to be insidious

BTW 5+5=10 NOT 8 grams!!


----------



## lenses

From what I understand from experience reports about MEPH, it seems that the main problem is the very strong vasoconstrictive properties. 

Personally that is my main problem with stimulants, when I was very heavy into adderall and dosing 200+mgs a day just to get by , the comedown was horrible because of the breathing problems, to the point where it was very uncomfortable to stand up, I had to lay down to breathe well. 

The intensity of the MEPH vasoconstriction seems the worst of any stim i've heard of . I would stay away.

-lenses


----------



## ebola?

^^^^
aye/hear hear/etc.

Qualitatively and quantitatively, mephedrone is especially dangerous (this will just recap prior posts from various people).  First, mephdrone appears to present greater cardiotoxicity than other stimulants that we typically consider among the most dangerous recreational drugs, ie cocaine and methamphetamine.  While the main danger (vasoconstriction) might not be the same, particularly with meph's issues versus cocaine's calcium-channel blockage, the incidence of adverse reactions and even the couple deaths on record with a drug this new, lacking as large, long-term, and 'dedicated' user-base is particularly alarming.

What is more, mephedrone's particular pharmacology and phenomenology lends itself to extension into toxic situations.  That the 'main', desirable effects are so fleeting, and relatedly that the compulsion to redose eclipses insufflated coke for most people, yet the duration of action of the toxic metabolite(s) lasts a few to several times longer, makes dangerous use likely.*  I mean, even first time users usually breach an ample 250 mg, and many even hit a gram+ in a sitting.

While I think all recreational drugs should be legal, banning mephedrone should reduce its incidence of usage compared to safer alternatives.

*IIRC, mephedrone has been confirmed to metabolize into 4-methyl-ephedrine, in rodents and _humans_ too.  Also, other research suggests that 4-halo-ephedrines (which should act very similarly) to exert potent vasoconstriction, metabolize comparatively slowly (half-life of four to several hours, IIRC), and have a therapeutic index 3 times worse than ephedrine (all info from research linked by vector).

ebola


----------



## MikeHawk

slackhands said:


> No offence but you sound like a little queer.



How is that constructive?  How is that not offensive?  Fuck off.





slackhands said:


> Dude, ffs you've only done 8 grams. If anything it takes someone a few times to take a drug to get the benefits. Well this is true for me haven taken a whole array of different drugs.
> 
> I think you jump to conclusions far too quickly. It sounds more probable that the bad synthesis you suspected, would be why you believe meph to be insidious
> 
> BTW 5+5=10 NOT 8 grams!!



I've had two orders of 5 grams, I've not finished the second order, the fuck?  

It doesn't take a couple of times to take a drug like this to get effects, what the FUCK are you talking about?  I've had amazing effects from Mephedrone in the past but it's diminished rapidly and there's a huge amount of evidence that it's very toxic now, unlike 6 months ago, which is when I first used it.

Stimulants are not like downers or cannabinoids.  You do not learn to "appreciate" the effects.  The effects are in your face, it's ludicrous to suggest one has to consume 8 grams before they can appreciate Mephedrone's effects.  Please for the love of God someone agree with me that this idea is completely idiotic.


----------



## egor

^entirely


----------



## nolys

MikeHawk said:


> Stimulants are not like downers or cannabinoids.  You do not learn to "appreciate" the effects.  The effects are in your face, it's ludicrous to suggest one has to consume 8 grams before they can appreciate Mephedrone's effects.  Please for the love of God someone agree with me that this idea is completely idiotic.



of course they arent i have to agree with this 100%. Look at MDMA. 99% of people say that their first time was their best time so how can it get any better? Same applies to mephedrone, it hits you clean in the face like a brick wall


----------



## MikeHawk

Glad to hear people echo my view. Slackhands, please don't post garbage.  It could genuinely damage somebody's health if you put misinformation on a harm reduction forum.


----------



## ColtDan

i agree with you, the effects are instantaneous. first time i did it it blew my head into the heavens of euphoria


----------



## Mailmonkey

MikeHawk said:


> Glad to hear people echo my view. Slackhands, please don't post garbage.  It could genuinely damage somebody's health if you put misinformation on a harm reduction forum.



If slackhands didn't post garbage he wouldn't really exist.

Just put the cunt on ignore.


----------



## adder

The situation with mephedrone in my country has become even more worrisome than it was with methcathinone. I remember this wave of people who had no contacts to buy amphetamine and methamphetamine is just unobtainable in most places, you really have to have good contacts to get it here. The problem with methcathinone was that it was cheap because people didn't buy anywhere instead synthesizing it themselves adding at face value KMnO4 (a strong oxidant) to a solution of tablets with pseudoephedrine hydrochloride. And it was acidified during the process with 10% acetic acid. After getting rid of brown MnO2 and other shit it was injected mostly but some (well, both were "heroes"...) drank it. Not to mention methcathinone is likely to be redosed multiple times because of its short time of duration.

I'm not saying that I never tried synthesizing methcathinone (with adulterants of course) with this method or that I never shot it. But it can be easily and safely synthesized in a laboratory yielding hydrochloride >99% pure. But the world is not full of chemists, right?

Now, mephedrone. This doesn't even make anyone with no chemical experience read some idiot's bullshit called "synthesis". Prices are ridiculous (well, converted to dollars maybe it's nothing but here in Poland this is well overpriced), 1 gram costs 90-100 PLN, 0.25g costs ~30 PLN (1$ = 2,84 PLN). Well, something is going on, at last. The site that offered quantity of even 10g of this shit and also started selling 3,4-methylmethcathinone is now down. Who are the clients of these "shops"? You don't have to think for long that mostly those are young people who need a high but can't buy any other stimulant or drugs in general and they heard only tales about crystal MDMA. So they go and buy this surely much more toxic amphetamine analog.

Shops with stimulating "whatever" are another problem. They sell BZP and TFMPP in mixed ratio under numerous names. Anyone who knows anything about chemistry and neuropharmacology knows that piperazine derivatives are hell of a toxic shit.

Well, I guess this is where we end up making drug illegal in general, still having legal alcohol or nicotine which are much more toxic and addictive than a lot of recreational psychoactive substances.


----------



## MikeHawk

I do seriously think the Mephedrone stuff may prompt a few governments to at least consider lessening regulations on MDxx as this is what causes the problem.  Mephedrone WAS at least a worthwhile substance unlike BZP.  It's unfortunate it took a few other interesting substances like Methylone and Butylone down with it, but I think reports of their potential are exaggerated.  

For example, every time I ingest Butylone I get bulging veins, especially in my feet.  I also get pain in my feet.  There are veins that appear that I've never even seen when I'm on Butylone so I find people's claims that Mephedrone is more toxic a little ridiculous.  Thankfully Butylone and Methylone give clear warnings when you've had too much, unlike Mephedrone.  

I hope that something fills the void quickly that's non-toxic and worthwhile.  MDAI looks encouraging but maybe something with a little DA activity too.


----------



## adder

MDAT is an interesting compound but anyway I don't see people selling mephedrone start selling such compounds like MDAT and other related. They don't have hell of an idea how to synthesize it...

Methylone isn't bad. It doesn't feel like MDMA but it's no comparison for mephedrone which is... What? I really see no cause for taking it in any form and via any ROA other than not having access to now illegal stimulants/empathogens. Mephedrone may pretend to substitute for them but it doesn't, shit for me, making more and more harm in general. I don't think banning it finally will push any government to make any MDx(x) legally available in any way. They're going to keep banning another compounds and those "dealers" will reappear with more dangerous and shittier compounds. Waiting for another "Age of Love" is pointless in my opinion. Long time ago even when MDMA was already illegal one stupid pill was enough to bring this magic and now people take sometimes tens of them because there is little to zero MDxx inside, instead containing some amphetamine speedy stuff.

The world goes to pot.


----------



## MeDieViL

Is it possible that mephedrone upregulates the α2-adrenergic receptors? I dont know wheter those can upregulate in presence of a agonist.
Its the only explanation i can think of for the vasoconstriction returning when taking another stim post meph use.


----------



## enduin

It would also explain what I was talking about in the long term toxicity thread, like heart hyperexcitability and palpitations in reaction to normal stimulation like after lunch, under stress, etc.


----------



## adder

My lucky guess from what I remember is ligands can cause upregulation of both {alpha}1 and {alpha}2 adrenergic receptors.

Well, such a process would also be an answer to some questions regarding severe opioid withdrawal, massive release of adrenal gland hormones leading eventually to adrenal gland distress.


----------



## vortex30

slackhands is an idiot, no problem with your posts. I easily understood you had one 5g order, then another 5g order you've done 3g from. Probably didn't understand 1/4 of the words in your first post, thus the queer remark. Intelligence must be a sign of homosexuality, makes sense considering the most 'flamboyant (or opposite word) heterosexuals' seem to hold very little capability for intelligent thought, their minds are on repeat 'sex, sex, sex...' ad infinitum, Idiocracy is a good film on this phenomenon.

Had another hoo-rah with the old Mephedrone after a day on MDA and then a night on booze and alprazolam. Lasted about 28 hours, was up for 44 hours total. By no means my heaviest sess, but towards the end was hallucinating slightly and felt horrible. Terrible feelings next two days. Back on the grind and 9 days off the stuff again. Probably consumed 1.5g in the session, though it's hard to say as I was blacked out on benzos most of the time. Slight reddening of the knuckles and purpling of the knees, which had entirely gone away before this session, returned and is still around albeit lessening now. Will probably take 2 weeks to fully clear up. Highly doubt this is classical vasoconstriction, as I NEVER experienced it for months of sometimes heavier mephedrone use. I think its that reaction some people have to pseudo-ephedrine, which makes their skin go red, probably made worse by meph's vasoconstriction? It's very weird though. Glad I'm done with this shit...Kinda.  I've got 25.5g or so, gonna sell it all is the plan. May have one last session on it, who knows. 

I seem to have been able to abuse Mephedrone for longer and harder than most people, yet I'm not alone. I belong to a community of mostly UK based, HEAVY users, and very few are experiencing short-term problems, anyways. It's strange, a very hit or miss drug in terms of acute side effects, that seem to get worse with time but for some never really seem to crop up. Long-term effects though, we're probably all fucked when those come around.


----------



## adder

> heterosexuals' seem to hold very little capability for intelligent thought, their minds are on repeat 'sex, sex, sex...' ad infinitum, Idiocracy is a good film on this phenomenon.



Oh really? Then I must be an exception to this rule. And wow! I would easily find a lot of exceptions. Then it's not a rule. I'm so sorry. And by the way, is this a thread in ADD or am I blind and it reads 'trip reports'?


----------



## vecktor

adder said:


> Oh really? Then I must be an exception to this rule. And wow! I would easily find a lot of exceptions. Then it's not a rule. I'm so sorry. And by the way, is this a thread in ADD or am I blind and it reads 'trip reports'?



there is another rule which states that sarcasm doesn't work online... 8)


----------



## MephMan9834

I must say glad its getting banned i got my self in a right mess started off doing it every weekend about 3g but i just wanted more every weekend became every day and to fund my addiction i turned to dealing the drug illegally next thing i knew i was ordering 100g every week and making £1,500.00. but things come to an end when i nearly lost my job and people were just loosing it went to rehab to get off it and its been 4 months now since i touched it and my life is back where it is now happy


----------



## vortex30

adder said:


> Oh really? Then I must be an exception to this rule. And wow! I would easily find a lot of exceptions. Then it's not a rule. I'm so sorry. And by the way, is this a thread in ADD or am I blind and it reads 'trip reports'?



You took it right out of context, didn't you?  I'm straight and intelligent too (who would have guessed from that post, amirite...)! I'm just not the type that goes and calls people out on being gay, you know, the 'ard lads, just got back from gym, doing lines off their fists in toilets every 30 minutes before beating up someone half - 3/4 their size, jocky cunts. THOSE are the people I'm talking about (and sarcastically, might I add). Not heterosexuals, as you quoted me as saying. Did you happen to miss the words before heterosexuals and the blatantly stupid contrast I tried to make, or did you just not understand what my whole point was?

Thanks, vecktor, fuck I wouldn't say something that stupid and actually mean it, it's a logical leap from what slackhands stated.

This is a thread in ADD. If you'd like to contribute all the hard scientific evidence you happen to possess on Mephedrone, it'd be greatly appreciated!  (Yes, I know you were being obtuse, this is sarcasm again, just a little FYI) Until then, we're left with subjective, but informed, experiences and assumptions/hypotheses.


----------



## Eliphaz

MeDieViL said:


> Is it possible that mephedrone upregulates the α2-adrenergic receptors?



That would be consistent with symptoms lasting now two years after a long period of extreme stress combined with light mephedrone use a handful of times.

Recovery is veery slow, requiring tight food and life style control (eg. a couple of beers every few months is too much). Alpha-2 agonist like clonidine could help with fixing the upregulation right? That was my weak spot to begin with, and mephedrone apparently broke the camel's back... For instance got extreme agitation from miniscule amounts of the antagonist yohimbine while still being apparently healthy ages ago. I don't dare to think what effect that would have now, but hey the bottle should still be hidden somewhere.


----------



## MeDieViL

Yeah ive allways been puzzled how the vasoconstriction seems to be long lasting.

I dont know wheter clonidine would work, no idea what effect it has on the a2 receptors.


----------



## junglist15

I'm done with this shit after about 8 months of on and off using. Nothing really bad happened, the thrill is gone I guess.


----------



## vortex30

Anyone care to list the side-effects of a2 up regulation, and the acute/chronic health risks that would come with it? Our brain's are constantly doing a balance act and fixing these harms as my slow but sure recovery from HPPD and Depersonalization from LSD has taught me, be patient and it will fix itself. But any reason why this could be a permanent switch? I'm sure it couldn't be, only maybe at times of stress/danger though, adrenergic 'effects' would be stronger than they ideally should be for, you know, the fight or flight style survival needs...? I've noticed during these exams, whilst studying my ass off, and as the exam approaches a type of adrenaline feeling anxiety that I've never really experienced before. Cigarettes also seem to not help, if I'm already stressed or anxious, they'll throw me into a real fit for about 5-10 minutes and I'll have to drink water. Does this sounds like possible a2 up regulation (I think it does).


----------



## vecktor

please keep on topic.
nobody gives a shit how much it cost or how much money you were or were not making
start another thread somewhere else if you like

the thread title is how toxic is mephedrone.


----------



## MephMan9834

vecktor said:


> please keep on topic.
> nobody gives a shit how much it cost or how much money you were or were not making
> start another thread somewhere else if you like
> 
> the thread title is how toxic is mephedrone.



oi fatty


----------



## ebola?

so mephedrone's specifically psychologically toxic--make's ya into a right cunt. 

ebola


----------



## hamhurricane

i did not realize one of the only confirmed deaths was the result of hyponatremia and hypokalemia, although there are missing details, the fact that the user was female and died of hyponatremia suggests that mephedrone releases vasopressin in a similar fashion to MDMA. users (esp. females) should make sure not to overhydrate and to consume liquids with electrolites.


----------



## Sharapovafistpump

Not that toxic imo, 15g there from sat to tues, bit 'meh' but dying never seemed on the cards


----------



## Skyline_GTR

^Noone doubts that it's relatively forgiving in terms of acute effects, but what about chronic / long term effects from such abuse? We just don't know..


----------



## Sharapovafistpump

well hopefully the whole lot will be metabolized harmlessly. 

Has there ever been a recreational drug discovered to hold serious profound health problems for the non habitual more epic binge user?

Mephe is just so damn addictive, more than coke imo- do they design it that way?


----------



## MephMan9834

gubbs123 said:


> How were you dealing it illegally when it wasn't made illegal in the UK until the day after you posted this? Also, a dealer should never touch his own stuff...everyone knows that! Too dangerous!



u have to be a ltd company to sell it i was doing it on the street i could of got max 5 years but now its max 17


----------



## MephMan9834

i mean illegal


----------



## spacefacethebassace

doombadger said:


> Has there ever been a recreational drug discovered to hold serious profound health problems for the non habitual more epic binge user?



MPTP immediately comes to mind. 

I bet that serious mephedrone abuse permanently alters brain function, and may cause permanent, organic brain damage, not just the reversible decrease in SERT density seen with MDMA.

Throw in some of the serious and potentially life-threatening acute cardiovascular reactions that have been reported, and it looks like heavy mephedrone use will probably end up shortening lifespan, measured as either absolute number of years lived or the number of years lived in good physical and mental health, or both.


----------



## ebola?

> I bet that serious mephedrone abuse permanently alters brain function, and may cause permanent, organic brain damage, not just the reversible decrease in SERT density seen with MDMA.



Why?

ebola


----------



## drug_FUCKED

^Why indeed and how do we find out if it has?


----------



## KissSanityGoodbye

I think one has less to worry about mephs effects on the body then on the mind.

friend of mine did it over a year regulary (3g/week) and then went insane (he got so paranoid he thought he had to kill himself) and overdosed one night (6g swallowed at once. ).
in hospital they coudn't find any physical abnormalitys except for an increased heartrate but he was passed out for 48 hours.
2 weeks later he still wasn't able to sleep without medical aid and now , after three months, he's still a diffrent person then he used to be. Scared of everything and everybody, lost his sense of humour, no real interests, sleeping and eating most of the time etc pp..
They checked all his bodyfunctions when he went to the doctors, including long term ekg etc.. and physically he's absolutly fine but he might need a psychotherapist for the rest of his life.

With MDPV  it's the same but worse.


----------



## ebola?

That sounds like some sort of protracted withdrawal. . .but that's pretty protracted compared to other stimulants.


----------



## vortex30

Meph seems so hit or miss on all fronts. I didn't abuse it nearly as bad as your friend but also have found negative mental side effects minimal, only a day or two later do I feel more 'down', by the third day I'm back to normal and happy. The physical side effects concern me more, though even these pale in comparison to physical side effects some have experienced after one use.


----------



## BoomBoxer

My take on the meph debate, threads like this are always going to have a higher % of problems to users with no problems as the first time they suffer some side effect they are going to google it and find these threads as opposed to the thousands that do it every weekend with no symptoms who never look up these threads. I know this is a compund with unknown risks but i don't think there as bad as some threads make out, who knows for sure though?

Me, i have still not took that risk, been sitting on a small amount which i got before the ban and im 50/50 whether ill try it or flush it, maybe wait a but longer and see what else comes out im in no rush the way im feeling at the minute i could sit on it for years...

The crazy thing is i would have never bought it had it not been for it's impending ban and the fear that i may miss out on something great


----------



## FUSIONZ

*too much*

I have been on a 1 to 2 gram a day habit for  about three months now.  Always insufflating.  I recently have tried to quit But it has been very hard to. Every night when i try to sleep i get the most insane nightmares it feels like real life. Some nights my nightmares make me think that i am in the act of beating my wife and i wake up to her sleeping soundly beside me it is very scary.  My nose is all fucked up and my wife keeps telling me to go see her allergist... LOL If she only knew.  I have been off of it since Sunday but really want to do it again. Some nights I go on 4 gram binges.  Its really bad.  Now I don't even really get a rush. Its just like a coke stimulated feeling but without the empathy... what to do?


----------



## Fluid0484

Meph isn't really going to turn out that much differently than coke.  People can take this stuff any time and function, get totally addicted, it's a white power that you snort, and it makes you feel good for about 30 minutes - sounds pretty similar to me.


----------



## FUSIONZ

True... I can work on it and after it.... its just the lack of sleep that gets you seeing shit and psychooo....


----------



## Pegasus

Fusion, I think the only thing you are really able to do is get your dosing under control and eventually quit altogether.  The episodes you describe with sleep would certainly have me worried.  I hope you manage to get your problem situated before anything serious happens, either by direct effect of the drug or indirectly, by the drug impacting your relationships with others.


----------



## Mr Sosa

am i the only one who thinks mephedrone got more toxic as it went along?

went i go it about 2 years ago the effects were there but for me it seemed to resemble real MD abit more and the negative effects werent' as pronounced

however, the shit i got just before the ban seems to alot more speedy than empathogenic and even though i take less it seems to fuck me over alot more; the vasoconstriction is alot worse

might just be my mind or can i get a c/s?

oh, and mephedrone seemed to give me permenant bruxism although it seems to have worn off now


----------



## FUSIONZ

BollWeevil said:


> Fusion, I think the only thing you are really able to do is get your dosing under control and eventually quit altogether.  The episodes you describe with sleep would certainly have me worried.  I hope you manage to get your problem situated before anything serious happens, either by direct effect of the drug or indirectly, by the drug impacting your relationships with others.



Hey, bol, thanks for the kind advice. I have been trying to take it easy and actually am down to two days on and two off.(which is good. For me.) I Got a 100 gram batch.  So hopefully I can detox correctly.  Crossing my fingers. ... damn stupid ego keeps knocking
On my door though....can't shut it offf. .. by the way..... go Celtics. Hope they stick t to Kobe that would be gr.eat


----------



## simstimstar

bighooter said:


> can you come up off mephedrone if you are on Mirtazapine?



I have a a buddy that takes mirtazapine, depakote, and adderall every day and he gets a full blown "roll" feeling on meph.

In my personal experience bingeing meph (I did 10g in a week more or less by myself) the main thing to watch out for is psychosis.  After being up a few days on it I started to really hallucinate.  Like that people were there i was conversing with not there, and I saw the light switch on the wall slide to the floor.  All seems perfectly ok at the time 'cause i was so high.  The culmination of the binge (maybe day 6?) i went out drinking with a buddy and ended up attacking him for apparently no reason, getting myself locked out of my apartment, lost my wallet.  By this time i'm full blown paranoid seeing people in the trees, car bomb plots against me, crazy.  the police were called bc i tried to kick my own door in at 4am, and i was in bad shape.  Hallucinating everywhere and trying to tell the cops about the bomb in the truck by my apartment.  It was way worse than any previous paranoia or anything I have experienced staying up multiple days using meth (I have not used meth now in 4 yrs).  Luckily they called my mom and let her take me to her house where I promptly passed out.

Not to mention the extreme memory problems that seem apparent almost from the beginning, lots of everyone asking "what was I just saying?" or just dropping off in the middle of the sentence.  Also, it really fucks with your motor control, and makes tasks like typing nearly impossible.  I sent so many fucked illegible nonsensical txts and e-mails that week it was ridiculous.  Plus, mixing with alcohol results in blackouts for me (mdma does this as well).

Do I think it's "safe" no.  Will I use it again? more than likely.  Will I use it for a whole week ever again?  I sincerely hope not.  That was just stupid.  I will say that all hallucination and paranoia was resolved with sleep.  After a couple days my memory and motor skills began to feel normal again.  Personally, based on my experience of it's profound effects on memory and motor control I am more than willing to bet on this being neurotoxic as well as the well documented vasoconstriction.  It does feel amazing though.  Also the high from eating it is much different from snorting it.  I think i prefer to eat it, but I was snorting it a lot, too.  I think i was too high the whole time to be bothered with noticing things like fast heart beats, coldness or numbness in the extremities, etc.  It was all just great until I started freaking out from no sleep, plus I really feel that meph itself can give mild visuals on it's own.

Cheers,
-SimStim


----------



## deckmunki

*Withdrawing - zaps, discontinuation syndrome*

The worst thing for me when I was so addicted was the fear of the withdrawal 'zaps' aka discontinuation syndrome.

Surprisingly, high doses (up to 5g per day) of l-tyrosine - available from health food shops like Holland and Barrett - completely stopped them, which makes mr
wonder whether the zaps are due to dopamine/norepinephrine imbalance and not serotonin?

If you can't source l-tyrosine, dl-phenylalanine is also effective.

I switched to l-tyrosine and tapered my dose over a month rather than trying to taper off meph as it's so hard to not redose compulsively. Both tyrosine and phenylalanine are reported to have applications in managing some forms of drug addiction, although I don't recall reading about it in the context of mephedrone previously.

When I managed to stop in March - just before the ban - my regular supplier was sending out the most impure stuff I've ever taken; chest pains within an hour of taking it, the batch smelt strongly, and the colour was very yellow. I'm glad I stopped when I did - my BP was through the roof, especially in my pulmonary artery.

Since then everything is, touch wood, returning to
normal - BP, chest and cardiac sounds, only one tachy-arrhythmic episode which subsided within a few seconds - and i'd say I'm almost back to being a normally-functioning person without feeling the urge to get high every couple of hours.

Good luck tapering off.


----------



## vecktor

deckmunki said:


> ur of taking it, the batch smelt strongly, and the colour was very yellow. I'm glad I stopped when I did - my BP was through the roof, especially in my pulmonary artery.



how the fuck do you know what your BP is in your pulmonary artery  whilst taking mephedrone 8)


----------



## MurphyClox

Oh Vecktor, come one! This shouldn't be too difficult to do at home:





This could be easily improvised with some copper wire, an old vacuum cleaner and some tiny screws. I frequently check my BP in all kind of vessels with a modified pipe wrench. That saves a lot of costs! Yes yes...

-  _Murphy_


----------



## Slothrop

I have never seen nor done Mephedrone. To my knowledge it is unavailable in the United States (in head shops at least) even though it is unscheduled ( at least I think it is)

My question is: in the long run would weekend binges of coke or meph be more damaging to the heart.

Also, why did no head shops in the US catch on?


----------



## deckmunki

vecktor said:


> how the fuck do you know what your BP is in your pulmonary artery  whilst taking mephedrone 8)



Oh feck, now I feel rather silly... :-$

Ok, truth is I may have made an uneducated guess based on what I could feel and many hours of research but, no, you're right - I'm a tool for making that assertion.

What I **should** have said was: I could feel - especially when lying down - my pulse throbbing very hard up the left side of my neck. There was considerable discomfort caused by a sensation of pressure which worsened significantly when I lowered my head so my chin would touch my chest. I frequently had tingling/pain in my jaw, usually at the left-back. I experienced chronic and acute discomfort of varying intensity in my left chest area, usually below the breast bone or below the bottom rib.

It was impossible to lie on my left side, and even the weight of my left arm on my chest would cause sudden chest pains.

I was also getting seriously out of breath when I was sitting still - for example watching tv on the sofa before bed - and lying down would normally make it worse. Walking around the house would sometimes help to clear it a little; otherwise I just had to wait it out. I often ended up falling asleep half-upright on the sofa at 4 in the morning because I'd woken up in pain.

I'm an otherwise fit and healthy male, late 20s, average height, average/slightly muscular/slightly overweight build. I.e. nothing out of the ordinary and certainly nothing which would explain these signs and symptoms.

And yes, it scared the cock out of me (

Since stopping the pains have gone, the sensations of pressure have gone, the discomfort has gone. I'm not "right" still, and I often find myself craving intoxication, but I don't constantly worry that I'm going to end up karking it suddenly, and things like running for the train don't leave me with my heart hammering away in my chest, out of breath, and sweating like anyone's business.


----------



## any major dude

would mephedrone's 5-HT/DA/NE release be potentiaed or mitigated by an SDNRI like tramadol?  Instinct says potentiate, but I didn't believe the SSRI MDMA blunting until it happened so me, so these things aren't always intuitive.


----------



## fryingsquirrel

Slothrop said:


> I have never seen nor done Mephedrone. To my knowledge it is unavailable in the United States (in head shops at least) even though it is unscheduled ( at least I think it is)
> 
> My question is: in the long run would weekend binges of coke or meph be more damaging to the heart.
> 
> Also, why did no head shops in the US catch on?


US has analog laws which make it's legality sort of a gray area. Possesion of small quantities ordered from overseas is unlikely (but not impossible) to result in prosecution. But selling it a different story. People have been busted for selling RC's on the net (google web tryp) in a headshop it would get you arrested in short order. But there are plenty of vendors who will ship it here. Ordering RC's isn't that dangerous, I've never even gotten a love letter.


----------



## any major dude

Yeah, its pretty clearly, according to the Controlled Substance Analogue act, an analogue of methcathinone, which is specifically controlled.  Basically I think it's lack of popularity has kept it off the radar


----------



## HereIam

Count me in as another casualty. I did a few grams over the weekend and my forearms are blue, yellow, purple. a scary rainbow. It's been 5 days, and I've been trying to follow advice.
Warm baths for my arms. Light exercise, massage of the area, Viagra a few times a day,  avalide twice a day. Lots of water, no alcohol. Truth is, I'm scared, nothing is changing, not better, not worse, but what about gangrene, will I feel that coming on? will it become darker, even black? Please help if you don't mind. I apologize for being redundant. But as I hate to admit,I really am scared. I have a BAD relationship with the doctors here, so that's my last resort.  Thanks


----------



## Vader

> what about gangrene, will I feel that coming on?


I'm pretty sure that gangrene is both visually obvious and excruciatingly painful, I don't think you can have gangrene and not know about it.


----------



## brandy42

I can only say that I ate over 20g in six months.

I heard somewhere that 3 tons were consumed in the United Kingdom in less than 2 years.

And I don't think there were many if any deaths directly attribtable to this.


----------



## alphabetalactone

without having to read the whole 34 pages of this thread, are blackouts very common when mixing with alcohol? this happened over the weekend (i lost 4 hours or so)


----------



## simstimstar

alphabetalactone said:


> without having to read the whole 34 pages of this thread, are blackouts very common when mixing with alcohol? this happened over the weekend (i lost 4 hours or so)



In my personal experience mixing alcohol with significant doses of either mdma or mephdrone will eventually result in blackout, not to say you might not still be up and running around.  Not a beer or two mind, but you will feel like you can drink a lot and maybe not quite so much as it seems, and then you don't know how much you drank.


----------



## brandy42

Suppose what your experience with alcohol is - tolerance.


----------



## alphabetalactone

simstimstar said:


> In my personal experience mixing alcohol with significant doses of either mdma or mephdrone will eventually result in blackout, not to say you might not still be up and running around.  Not a beer or two mind, but you will feel like you can drink a lot and maybe not quite so much as it seems, and then you don't know how much you drank.



I drank around 15 cans of stella with a gram of meph. usually 8 cans will fuck me up. i didnt even have a hangover, was a strange one.


----------



## Vader

^Goodbye moderation!


----------



## alphabetalactone

Yerg said:


> ^Goodbye moderation!



story of my life haha


----------



## bagman2389

right these stories of vasoconstriction for days after the dose really concern me i always buy mine from the same guy and its strong has little smell and causes  minimal vasoconstriction to the point where i had a 3g binge and still had nicely blood filled limbs combined with no chest discomfort and my heart rate remained at just above normal. 

What i am asking is does anyone know whether these more severe side affects are caused by impurities or just individul difference becaus i have seen at least 30 different people on the stuff i get always fro the same guy and they all seem fine.

and honestly its not that its weak i am a regular user and it still merks me.


----------



## enduin

I think it's both: there surely has been a lot of poor quality meph going around after it gained that notoriety, but it's also a lot to do with personal biochemistry. The 3 times I used meph was always with the same person and he was taking just as much as me, but he got no aftereffects from it, no palpitations, nothing noticeable.


----------



## handydandy

deckmunki said:


> Brokenbrain, the only reason I think it would be good to write anonymously is to offer an extra layer of protection from being identified.


Hope that anonymity is working out for you, Alex. 	8)


----------



## alex1236

A few people on here must have bought really bad stuff or just mix it with too many other drugs/alcohol.  I bought mine off a site that no longer exists like the rest 'topdogplantfood'

 I never had any of the blue arms, blackouts etc that people are experiencing.  I would generally take anything between 1/4 and 1/2 a gram in one night after alcohol.  Then drink water afterwards.  

I had some fantastic nights on it, the worst thing would be the dreams/nightmares for the following 5 days but I got this after MDMA too.  One of the other things was that I had cold feet and hands, but this was probably down to also dancing for 6 hours, then walking home in winter in a tshirt and thin trainers.  Also the standard stuff like chewing a lot

I think the key is moderation, I never took more than 1 gram in a night and when I did, didnt touch it for a month then 1/4 would do me a good 5 hours.  The only reason its illegal is because of retards who went on 3 days binges of alcohol, cocaine, whatever else and methedrone.  Methedrone was obviously found in the body and so it was blamed. - anyone remember the story of leah betts who had ecstacy then danced herself to death in hot club, drank bucket loads of water and collapsed, not the wisest thing to do if you have a weak heart and are unfit


----------



## melange

MurphyClox said:


> Oh Vecktor, come one! This shouldn't be too difficult to do at home:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This could be easily improvised with some copper wire, an old vacuum cleaner and some tiny screws. I frequently check my BP in all kind of vessels with a modified pipe wrench. That saves a lot of costs! Yes yes...
> 
> -  _Murphy_



this is fucking hilarious


----------



## Vader

> Methedrone was obviously found in the body and so it was blamed. -


I think you mean mephedrone. Methedrone is a different (and probably more dangerous) drug.


----------



## xtcnation

Hammilton said:


> Well, probably is a strong MAOI and DARI in one.  There's no pharmacological data to support or deny this, but assuming it is, is a lot smarter than dying over it.



Can someone tell me what MAO1 or DARI is? im confused lol


----------



## hunuh

monoamine oxidase inhibitor, dopamine re-uptake inhibitor


----------



## vortex30

hunuh said:


> monoamine oxidase inhibitor, dopamine re-uptake inhibitor



And this is bad because the DARI prevents large amounts of dopamine from leaving the synapse so dopamine builds up, then usually monoamine oxidase would help in eliminating the excess dopamine but an MAOI inhibits MAO from doing this, creating a bad scenario...


----------



## ebola?

to be pedantic, it likely acts mostly as a releaser than a reuptake inhibitor.
...
I just caught word that intermediate-level distributors are buying from China and selling the shit as "sunshine" on the streets, all over Oregon, but also as far as Phoenix.  This shit will be scheduled soon, and good riddance (this marks the first time I've thought such about prohibition of a substance).

ebola


----------



## BoomBoxer

Been sampling Mephedrone last 4 weekends on a sat night, never used more than 1/4 Gram in a night and had no real nasty side effects, noticed seem to sweat a lot more and occasionally have a bad headache on monday especially after doing some hard graft. Have noticed random pins and needles for 3-4 days after each session. Normally had a few beers before the meph nothing too much just 4 or 5 beers, don't know why but my enjoyment of any stimulant seems much more enjoyable after a few beers.

I don't think this drug is that bad just people seem to lack any form of self control with it, not once have i been unable to stop when i notice the sun coming up lol, i do love the fact i can be buzzing one minute and fast asleep 30min after a bump.


----------



## /navarone/

When is this thread gonna enddddddddddddd??????????????????


----------



## alex1236

/navarone/ said:


> When is this thread gonna enddddddddddddd??????????????????



When people stop taking Mephedrone I would have thought?!


----------



## /navarone/

I don't know if I should be ashamed or rather content about the scarcity or even complete inexistence of such research chemicals here in Italy...


----------



## enduin

Given the higher ignorance our drug users show compared to foreign ones, I'd say content.


----------



## forestxfaerie

Has anyone considered the numbness caused by mephedrone is from depletion of b1 and b12


----------



## Levvytation

Well here's some facts. I check for info on anything I'm planning to take and when I first heard about mephedrone (18 months or so ago before it was widespread) & it didn't look too bad... read up online & everyone in the know seemed to be having a beano with this stuff with minimal comedowms/side effects. So I ordered...street drugs had hit an all time low, so...

Now I know different. positive, there's the first few first hits, the 'honeymoon period' where it makes you feel wonderfull...one of the best hits I've ever had was on meph.

Then it suddenly changed..the binges started, the negatives magnified rapidly.

I know its chemical name & all that, but what difference does that make if you're mate suddenly collapses, eyes rolled up, face going this horrible purple colour etc (the full story of that is on a mega thread on OD. Anyway he survived but it was close (I'm not a medical person/expert) I just know it was. 

For a while I thought it was an ambulance job, and I'm thinking what to tell the paramedic, ''Oh he's taken mephedrone, you know the stuff, methylmethcathinone''. The guy wouldn't have had a clue what I was talking about. And I was feeling bad because it was me that gave it him. Small dose, bout 150mg and he nearly died.

Its nasty stuff & hasn't done me any good at all. I wish I could turn back the clock, had those first 4 blissful doses, then sacked it off.

One strange but positive effect its had on me, its put me off cocaine


----------



## adamski10

after a 13 month near daily use my heart constantly feels not quite right, sometimes cigarettes cause palpitations etc.... 

I had a stupid meph habit and boy now I’m  feeling it.

The head zaps have stopped but I still wake up stinking of the stuff (this is a good 4 months after cessation) and although I had an awful dip of depression (resulting in suicide attempts and inpatient psychiatric treatment) my mood is far more stable and I don’t experience dips as often. 

If someone was using 8-20 grams per binge and binging 3 times a week for 13 months, is there any supplements or substances that could be used to manage the long term effects or anything that could rid the body of it quicker?


----------



## fryingsquirrel

Making no claim that mephedrone is safe, but 8-20 gram binges will cause major side affects with llots of things. Go on a binge with a half oz. of coke or meth and see how you feel afterword. To answer the question the drug has long since left your body.


----------



## vortex30

adamski10 said:


> after a 13 month near daily use my heart constantly feels not quite right, sometimes cigarettes cause palpitations etc....
> 
> I had a stupid meph habit and boy now I’m  feeling it.
> 
> The head zaps have stopped but I still wake up stinking of the stuff (this is a good 4 months after cessation) and although I had an awful dip of depression (resulting in suicide attempts and inpatient psychiatric treatment) my mood is far more stable and I don’t experience dips as often.
> 
> If someone was using 8-20 grams per binge and binging 3 times a week for 13 months, is there any supplements or substances that could be used to manage the long term effects or anything that could rid the body of it quicker?



I know I often say this, but it is true and good advice, you should start exercising. It promotes healing and the ridding of toxins from the body. It also just makes you feel good and sleep well. Obviously a healthy diet, plenty of sleep and cutting out all drug use are the other good pieces of advice. Yes there's 5-htp and l-tyrosine, but I'd try to go for eating plenty of protein and vitamin rich foods rather than more chemicals. Boost your neurotransmitters and overall health via...A healthy lifestyle...

PS - Levvytation - that's practically my story in a nut-shell, caused a serious reaction off 150mg given to a friend, not as serious as yours but he was way more fucked than he should have been. I really messed myself up with Mephedrone, but it's been since early May so nearly 3 full months that I haven't had even a line, and I've done my best to avoid all other drugs (though...not entirely well I will add), and I've really focused on exercise and healthy eating/sleeping and I find I'm all but recovered. Turned me off Cocaine and stims in general too oddly enough, I find I get very little euphoria and just feel 'stimulated' rather than 'FUCKING FANTASTIC' on them all now. Nicotine gives me an adrenergic feeling reaction, I really gotta quit those...


----------



## Solipsis

Exercise is good advice, Ive been doing that more since I quit using drugs recreationally or regularly (alright I have relapsed slightly for a bit but overall its almost negligable), but the other thing that was vital to me getting back on a healthy body weight is not doing uppers and downers anymore. They fuck with your appetite and sleep rhythm and they definitely dont help for a natural life structure because they give you an artificial one.

But many of you probably know that, its good for others to hear though because its just you know, true story for the last months 

On-topic: sorry to disappoint anyone who would think there would actually be substantial on-topic information but 35 pages of 'we basically dont really know but have a pretty good guess!'... we will just have to wait on proper toxicity experiments if shit really hits the fan and - unfortunately - statistics over time to see how much damage it does.

I have no idea either what it would take for endorsed and funded tests to be conducted. Why the hell don't governments like that of UK fund it?


----------



## PandorasBox

Ive been browsing this site for some time, but I have never bothered to post before.  I stumbled across something today though.  A post in DF allegedly from a vendor who claimed the yellow tint in some batches is a result of a Br2 impurity, which they rinse with NaSO4 to remove it.  The vendor was claiming that many companies skip this step to save money, and also that even if they do, some of the rinsing agent is left behind.

Now normally I dont believe anything a vendor says, but it got me thinking.  I checked out the synthesis of mephedrone and sure enough it utilizes nucleophilic substitution, producing Br2 as a major impurity (approximately a 1:2 molar ratio).  This is not uncommon in organic chemistry, but combining several factors, among them: the large dose and frequency people consume (compared to other RCs that may contain this impurity), the lax manufacturing and profit maximization processes of Chinese companies, its unprecedented addictiveness and fiendishness,  and no check on quality.
While everyone claims that purity is 99.7%, from experience working in a legitimate chem lab I know that this is highly unlikely and would likely involve several purification steps, many of them rather sophisticated.  So if Br2 were present at even 0.1% (remember its produced at a 1:2 molar ratio, so this is rather conservative and represents pulling off the vast majority with an appropirate solvent), and has a half-life of 9-12 days, and someone were to use more than a gram a week, your exposure is rather significant.  If you were to report Br2 as an impurity on an FDA approve drug, it might even pass muster at 0.1%, but thats assuming a dose of a few mg's, and they'd probably tell you to go back and clean it up anyway.  A similar analogy can come from Tuna maybe.  Tuna isn't bad for you, its probably even good for you.  But if you eat it every day, youll probably end up with lead poisioning eventually.

(as a note to clarify:  Br- and many Bromine containing molecules are acceptable in the body, while  Br2 is pretty toxic.  By pretty I mean highly.) 

The interesting part comes from looking at the symptoms of actue Br2 poisioning:



> TOXICITY
> BROMINE:
> TOXICITY DATA: 1000 ppm inhalation-human LCLo; 750 ppm/9 minutes
> inhalation-mouse LC50; 2700 mg/m3 inhalation-rat LC50; 180 ppm/6.5 hours
> inhalation-rabbit LCLo; *14 mg/kg oral-human LDLo*; 2600 mg/kg oral-rat LD50;
> 3100 mg/kg oral-mouse LD50; 4160 mg/kg oral-rabbit LD50; 5500 mg/kg
> oral-guinea pig LD50.
> CARCINOGEN STATUS: None.
> LOCAL EFFECTS: Corrosive- inhalation, skin, and eyes; lacrimator.
> ACUTE TOXICITY LEVEL: Toxic by inhalation. Moderately toxic by ingestion.
> TARGET EFFECTS: Poisoning may affect the the heart, respiratory and central
> nervous systems.
> AT INCREASED RISK FROM EXPOSURE: Persons with pulmonary and respiratory
> disorders.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> HEALTH EFFECTS AND FIRST AID
> INHALATION:
> BROMINE:
> CORROSIVE/TOXIC. 10 ppm Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health.
> ACUTE EXPOSURE- Exposure to 1 ppm may cause irritation. 3.5 ppm has a
> detectable odor; 10 ppm is severely irritation and may be intolerable:
> 40-60 ppm is dangerous for brief exposures; 1000 ppm is rapidly fatal.
> *Inhalation of small amounts may cause copious mucous secretion*,
> blephritis, coughing, *rhinitis or nosebleeds*, feelings of oppresion.
> Epistaxis, vertigo, and headache. Delayed symptoms may include nausea,
> diarrhea and abdominal pains. In addition, *respiratory difficulty with
> hoarseness*, asthma,* dyspnea*, and crepitations in the lungs as well as
> as well as *generalized vesicular, morbilliform or measles like rashes *may
> occur. Inhalation of high concentrations may cause* inflammatory lesions of
> the mucous membranes of the upper respiratory trac*t, fatal chemical burns
> respiratory failure. *The tongue and palate may appear inflamed and
> edematous with a characteristic odor of the breat*h. Glottal spasms and
> asthmatic bronchitits may occur. Pulmonary edema, pneumonitis or
> pneumonia may be delayed for several hours. A case of pneumomediastinum
> induced by accidental occupational exposure was reported. The pathology
> of animals exposed to 300 ppm for 3 hours showed pulmonary edema,
> pseudomembranous deposit on the trachea and bronchi, and hemorrhages of
> the gastric mucosa. Functional disturbances of the central nervous system
> were observed in animals that died several days after exposure.
> 
> 
> *CHRONIC EXPOSURE- Prolonged or repeated exposure to concentrations less than
> 0.1 mg/m3* may cause *headache, chest pains, anorexia, indigestion,
> irritability and joint pains.* Persons exposed to excessive concentrations
> for 1 year complain of headache, *pain in the region of the heart,*
> increasing irritability, loss of appetite, *joint pains *and dyspepsia.
> After 5-6 years of exposure to this level there may be loss of corneal
> reflexes, pharyngitis, vegetative disorders, thyroid hyperplasia
> accompanied by thyroid dysfunction and bone marrow depression.
> Cardiovascular disorders may occur in the form of myocardial degeneration
> and hypotension. Functional and secretory disorders of the digestive
> tract may also occur. *Hematologic effects may include inhibition of
> leukopoiesis, leukocytosis*, moderate hypoglycemia or altered blood sugar
> curves, hypercholesterolemia, reduction of total bilirubin, decreased
> hemoglobin concentration and increased erythrocyte sedimentation rates.
> Bromine may be deposited in the tissues as bromides and accumulate to
> cause central nervous system disorders and effects of bromism as detailed
> in chronic ingestion.


the bold is mine, for symptoms Ive heard reported at one time or another.

Obviously, this not a source for all the side effects people are reporting, but it may be responsible for some of them.  It is a rather potent drug, that many people are abusing, itll surely have some side-effects.  The above source is just an MSDS, Ill check out some better sources later.

Just an idea.


----------



## PandorasBox

More info:  from Shannon: Haddad and Winchester's Clinical Management of Poisoning and Drug Overdose, 4th ed.



> Bromides are well absorbed from the gastrointestinal (GI) tract. Their oral bioavailability is about 96%, and peak serum concentrations are reached within 2 hours. Bromide has a low volume of distribution (0.35–0.48 L/kg) and tends to concentrate in erythrocytes and neurons.[12,][13]
> 
> Serum bromide concentrations are expressed in several units, including mEq/L, mg/L, mg/dL, and mmol/L. The interpretation of recorded values is therefore subject to considerable confusion. Because of bromide's close relationship with chloride, its serum concentrations are best expressed in the equivalent mEq/L or mmol/L. Unit relationships are as follows:
> 
> Bromide is readily filtered by the glomeruli. Once in the tubular lumen, bromide competes with chloride for reabsorption with tubules having a higher affinity for bromide ion; therefore, chloride is preferentially excreted under typical circumstances. As a result, prolonged administration of bromide results in significant total-body loss of chloride. An intimate relationship exists between in situ chloride and bromide concentrations; the body maintains the molar sum of chloride and bromide ion at about 110 mmol/L.[12] The elimination half-life of bromide is 7 to 12 days; this half-life is increased with a salt-deficient diet.[1,][11,][12] Average renal bromide clearance is about 26 mL/kg per day. Bromide readily diffuses across the placenta and accumulates in fetal tissues. It is also secreted into breast milk.
> Although animal studies have reported LD50 in the range of 2 to 5 g/kg, the reported human lethal dose is as low as 14 mg/kg. Nonetheless, experimental administration of up to 9 mg/kg/day of bromide for 12 weeks was reported to cause difficulty with concentration and sleepiness only. Bromide intoxication usually results from long-term overmedication, resulting in bromism.
> 
> Bromism is a clinical syndrome that consists of GI, dermatologic, and CNS manifestations (Box 96-1). GI manifestations include nausea, vomiting, a fetid odor on the breath, anorexia, and weight loss.[2] Dermatologic manifestations are found in as many as 30% of those with bromism[2]; bromoderma is the name given to the associated skin lesions. The most common lesion is an acneiform eruption on the face. Another frequent finding is an eruption resembling ecthyma, appearing on the lower extremities (nodose bromoderma). Other skin lesions include pemphigus-like, bromide-filled vesicles on the lower extremity, erythema multiforme, pyoderma gangrenosum, and bromoderma tuberosum (tumor-like lesions).
> 
> The neurobehavioral signs and symptoms of bromism are prominent. Behavioral disturbances include the appearance of a bromide dementia characterized by delirium, agitation, auditory and visual hallucinations, depression, and schizophrenic and manic-depressive psychosis. Hallucinosis may occur with an otherwise clear consciousness. Neurologic manifestations of bromism include dysarthria, hyporeflexia, and coma. An increased cerebrospinal fluid protein level occurs in 2% to 40% of patients.[14] Low-grade fever may be found in as many as 25% of cases.[2] Neurologic signs of bromism are slow to resolve and lag behind the decrease in serum bromide concentration because of the slow diffusion of bromide out of the CNS.[13] Among those who present with obtundation or coma, retrograde amnesia may develop. Ocular findings may also be striking in bromide intoxication and may consist of mydriasis, color disturbances, blurred vision, and micropsia or macropsia. These latter two syndromes are perceptual distortions in which objects appear smaller or larger, respectively, than they actually are. Ocular bobbing (opsoclonus) has been described in a patient with bromide encephalopathy.[15] Papilledema is occasionally found on funduscopic evaluation.


----------



## Eliphaz

vortex30 said:


> ... Nicotine gives me an adrenergic feeling reaction



Sounds like you're approaching late 2nd stage adrenal fatigue.

http://tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html
Three Stages of Adrenal Exhaustion

Mephedrone alone does not very easily _cause_ adrenal fatigue, but it greatly accelerates the deficiency's progress given that other high stressors in lifestyle are present, as they usually are.

Seen numerous times, continuous - sometimes even light - mephedrone usage is responsible for breaking the camel's back and quickly leading to adrenal exhaustion. Whether this is due to direct toxicity, or that of metabolites or impurities is interesting but not essential.

By completely stopping mephedrone usage, one can mostly halt the exponential degeneration. However, if you continue to batter your adrenals every couple of weeks with any chemical abuse (including alcohol), your organs probably won't have enough time to recover from the damage made previously and the downward spiral slowly continues.

Thus, it gets more and more difficult to recover because exponentially longer time is required to fully recover the organs to their prior state after each stress situation.

After 2 and half years from ground zero, I can nowadays have a sixpack of beer with a few cigs once every couple of months, use health supplements moderately, have the occasional cup of coffee every few months, have sex max. 2-3 times a week, or be up until the little hours a couple of nights a week. This schedule enables my condition to slowly improve so that I can carefully reverse the adrenal fatigue first to "stable" level 1, then hopefully to near intact activity. 

If I pass the line for any of these activities, my condition falls back and to avoid life-threatening cardiovascular symptoms rigorous lifestyle and diet requirements (including completely abstaining from alcohol, coffee, green tea, vitamins B,D, sugar, wheat products just for instance) are required for 3 to 6 months to only get back to the previous state. Having goofed up and gone through this a couple of times already, a good point is indeed that regular exercise speeds up recovery by roughly 50%.

Oh yes, all this with half a dozen moderate dosings of mephedrone containing products some 36 to 28 months ago - the stage had been set earlier but the scapegoat is pretty easy to name. Unfortunately, it usually requires personal experience or some form of divine intervention to be able practise the unexpectedly strict moderation to stop the descent to the very challenging deep adrenal fatigue that undoubtedly awaits many former mephedrone samplers or users.

Moderation is personal - well said but difficult to accept is that sometimes moderation means none.


----------



## MikeHawk

With all due respect.  Making a huge assumption like this based on one anecdote is silly.  Have you got any proof that Mephedrone causes adrenal fatigue to the level where you can't even have fucking sugar?  This strikes me as absurd.


----------



## agram

No other stims taken during occasional stim binges aside from coffee during my only real 'stim' period.

Now I have heart disease.


----------



## deckmunki

MikeHawk said:


> With all due respect.  Making a huge assumption like this based on one anecdote is silly.  Have you got any proof that Mephedrone causes adrenal fatigue to the level where you can't even have fucking sugar?  This strikes me as absurd.



Agreed. Given th nature of the source I would recommend ignoring that website's assertions as scaremongering rubbish until I can see some peer-reviewed medical evidence.

Absolute claptrap.


----------



## deckmunki

agram said:


> No other stims taken during occasional stim binges aside from coffee during my only real 'stim' period.
> 
> Now I have heart disease.



I'd appreciate more details from you; how did you find out you have heart disease, what were te signs and symptoms, what's your medical history if any, age, weight, lifestyle, etc?

The more information you provide, the better the chances you could help someone else who might be in the same situation without realising it.

What treatment are you getting?


----------



## PandorasBox

Re:  Adrenal Fatigue

IDK- I really have no idea, but I see how it is possible.  

I hadn't really thought about this, or noticed it.  The long lasting funk that follows may just be due to the primary effect of the drug.  Still, many people are speculating on the existence of a long lasting vaso-constrictor as a metabolite.  If this does exist then it might look a great deal like an analog of epinephrine.  (conversion of the carboxyl to the hydroxyl is probably the first step in degradation.  I have no clue how you would metabolize the para-methyl (any ideas?) The N- methyl blocks MAOI activity, so that wouldn't happen right away, but depending on the path this drug takes on its way out the kidney, it could definitely form an active metabolite.  Thats the rule more than the exception, most drugs have active metabolites.  The problem would be the speculated long lasting property- which- possibly could wear out the adrenal response;  similar to overeating, causing the body to wear out its response to insulin leading to type II diabetes.

I recently had an epiphany that though the odds are slim, I really dont want to hear some horrible news about this stuff in like 5 years.  Just imagine that there may be a possibility that 4mmc is actually 10,000x more neurotoxic than mdma.  So I will not be touching this, or any research chem again.  Its just not worth the risk to me.  Everyone has their own limits though.

Everyone wants peer reviewed evidence before they are willing to admit there are actual real side effects.  I would love to see a paper come out, surely someone is working on it.  But the peer reviewed stuff takes years.  The brain is so redundant, that neuro-degenerative diseases typically are asymptomatic until you have lost 70-80% of the associated neurons in your brain, so "i feel normal" is horrible evidence.  Thats what terrifies me.  Is there a parkinsonian type disease for serotonin?


----------



## PandorasBox

Yea, actually, I'd really like to know the same.  This is what Ive found in researching how much damage Ive done to myself.

The heart disease is speculated to be similar to what was experienced in FenPhen (fenfluramine).  Check out Wikipedia for the back story.  Short version:  there are serotonin receptors all over the body not just in the brain- the body likes to reuse different molecules it makes in many different ways- there are countless examples but its not just a neurotransmitter, its also a hormone.  The blood brain barrier keeps serotonin and any other neurotransmitters from coming in.  Thats why you cant just eat serotonin powder and feel good.  One spot that receives serotonin signals is on the valves of the heart, were it appears to regulate growth. The valves grow larger, become fibrous and less flexible and eventually fail.  Treatment is surgical and damage is permanent

This is also why its a horrible idea to take 5HTP supplements.  I threw mine away last week as soon as I read this.  

Another possible and more acute cause is the hypertension caused by the vasoconstriction effect and cardiac stimulation.  Vasoconstriction squeezes more blood into circulation and the high heart rate caused by the stims sends blood pressure through the roof.  Over time, the heart wears out from operating under high pressures.  Its a stretchy bag of muscle, use your imagination.  This was the mechanism behind the cardio-toxic effect of aminorex.  We know that 4mmc has a very high cardiac load, in my experience, lasting up to 3 days to completely reach normal, so it wouldnt surprise me.

And again remember the way in which these drugs are used.  The amount many report taking is often many many times the does of other similar stims, and for longer periods of time (for most), so these side effects will be greatly exacerbated if they exist.

There are other possibilities as well Im sure, maybe something new.  Also, the first example is a possible negative side effect of any serotogenic releasing drug or prodrug (tryptophan or 5HTP), and the second of any stimulant abuse.  So, theres no new info or radical ideas here.




deckmunki said:


> I'd appreciate more details from you; how did you find out you have heart disease, what were te signs and symptoms, what's your medical history if any, age, weight, lifestyle, etc?
> 
> The more information you provide, the better the chances you could help someone else who might be in the same situation without realising it.
> 
> What treatment are you getting?


----------



## deckmunki

PandorasBox said:


> he heart disease is speculated to be similar to what was experienced in FenPhen (fenfluramine).



By whom? When? Please provide links.

Serum serotonin is widely reported to cause fibrosis of the heart valves through 5-HT2B agonism, I believe, but whether mephedrone exhibits the same levels of damage as FenPhen would surely take years of study?



			
				PandorasBox said:
			
		

> Just imagine that there may be a possibility that 4mmc is actually 10,000x more neurotoxic than mdma.



No. Absolutely not without some shred of evidence. This is simply another scaremongering attitude, whether or not you intend it to be.

Let's try and stick to facts here, eh? If we're going to start speculating, let's try keep it to sensible academic discussion.

Wild theories don't help anyone.


----------



## PandorasBox

Absolutely, there is no proof of anything.  Anything I said is a stab in the dark, mere conjecture  based on my current understanding of the body and chemicals from reading a very wide range of sources.  Proving it would take years, you are correct.  And I only meant to convey my reservations for volunteering to be the one to prove it one way or another.  No more, no less.  

Please try and keep the discussion constructive, or else I'll just head somewhere else.

Links for systemic 5HT and heart valves-  PMID 15781732,  PMID 12466135, PMID: 20455335, PMID: 20237052 
-obviously does this drug share this same side effect.  I think its worth noting the possibility exists, but also that this is a long term thing.

"10,000 times" hah, just a personal thought, sorry if it offended.  Just meant to say what if something came out concrete in a few years I really didnt want to hear.

Right now I am thinking about the combination of vasoconstriction, cardiac stimulation, and hyperthermia as the most likely most toxic side effects.

Evidence for vasoconstriction is in the blue joints- the cutaneous tissue over joints is not as well vascularized as other skin because the joints themselves are basically avascular.  Ischemia is easiest to detect there, however, the worst damage is being done to the heart, kidney, and brain, where metabolic wastes build up quickest.  




deckmunki said:


> By whom? When? Please provide links.
> 
> Serum serotonin is widely reported to cause fibrosis of the heart valves through 5-HT2B agonism, I believe, but whether mephedrone exhibits the same levels of damage as FenPhen would surely take years of study?
> 
> 
> 
> No. Absolutely not without some shred of evidence. This is simply another scaremongering attitude, whether or not you intend it to be.
> 
> Let's try and stick to facts here, eh? If we're going to start speculating, let's try keep it to sensible academic discussion.
> 
> Wild theories don't help anyone.


----------



## PandorasBox

Does anyone have access to this: 

Curr Drug Metab. 2010 Jun 1;11(5):468-82.

Metabolism of designer drugs of abuse: an updated review.

 my liscense only gets me to one year before today.


----------



## deckmunki

Maybe I was too harsh on you PandorasBox; you seem to be a keen scholar. I just suffer an uncontrollably violent pathological reaction to the BS propagated by some websites in order to help them sell their snake oil, and adrenal fatigue seems thus far to be a likely member of this category.

For the record, what I actually _know_ about anything - at all - could be written on a postage stamp with a blunt crayon...

=o)


----------



## Eliphaz

Trusting that currently lacking scientific evidence for toxicity of research chemicals makes them harmless, is plain madness.

I do not need peer-reviewed evidence to notice that my health has been fucked up for years. With intense and careful study in hindsight I have concluded mephedrone played a part in that. Speaking out about such a find on a harm reduction forum should by all means be desirable, and not to be discounted.

There are still diseases that do not even have a name. Adrenal fatigue not of them, it is a widely recognized complication that is fortunately being slowly pulled into mainstream medicine. Debate about its existence is fruitless.



PandorasBox said:


> The brain is so redundant, that neuro-degenerative diseases typically are asymptomatic until you have lost 70-80%



For exactly that reason, the scare for neurotoxicity is over-emphasized compared to other risks of research chemicals. Detriments such as hepato- nephro- or cardiovascular toxicity are much more effective in fucking up the quality of your life. It is wise to pay due attention to these risks.


----------



## Vader

> currently lacking scientific evidence for toxicity of research chemicals makes them harmless


Who said that? I don't think anyone made that claim.


----------



## IsaacE16

There's a boy I know who at the age of 12 was a completely normal 12 yearold boy a bit shy but normal, at the age of 13 he became seriously addicted to Mephedrone, buying grams in their dozens off the internet, now at the age of 14 he has come off mephedrone, but the damage is done, he has gone insane, don't ask me the ins and outs of it I'm not an expert, but this shy boy, has turned into a loud, twitchy, wreck who is always shouting and can be seen at the local music festival starting fights he always looses pouring beer over himself and passed out in a pool of his own vomit.
This was a definate result of the mephedrone as the change was to fast and to extreme to just happen over two years naturally


----------



## blobbymahn

IsaacE16 said:


> There's a boy I know who at the age of 12 was a completely normal 12 yearold boy a bit shy but normal, at the age of 13 he became seriously addicted to Mephedrone, buying grams in their dozens off the internet, now at the age of 14 he has come off mephedrone, but the damage is done, he has gone insane, don't ask me the ins and outs of it I'm not an expert, but this shy boy, has turned into a loud, twitchy, wreck who is always shouting and can be seen at the local music festival starting fights he always looses pouring beer over himself and passed out in a pool of his own vomit.
> This was a definate result of the mephedrone as the change was to fast and to extreme to just happen over two years naturally



Perhaps he just turned into a teenager?


----------



## MrM

Perhaps this is the result of a young kid having access to large amounts of a powerful drug for a year?

I have no doubt if a 13 year old kid spent a year taking dozens of grams of MDMA they might have similar problems.

Whilst personally i find some of the health problems that have been associated with mephedrone quite worrying, and the uncertainty that comes with so many people taking such a new drugs also worrying, if a 13 year old kid can take so much for a whole year and not die that tells you that it's far from instantly deadly.

Going through puberty is hard enough as it is. I can't imagine drug addiction would make it any easier.


----------



## Jabberwocky

MrM said:


> Perhaps this is the result of a young kid having access to large amounts of a powerful drug for a year?
> 
> I have no doubt if a 13 year old kid spent a year taking dozens of grams of MDMA they might have similar problems.



I think the vast majority of psychoactive substances would mess a developing brain up. i mean i saw psycho kids round where i grew up and that was the result of 'just' alcohol. plus i think regardless of age heavy frequent drug use does just mess you up, most people on this forum have probably see people 'turn into shadows of their former selves' (sorry for the cliche!!) cos of too many drugs.


----------



## Vader

Is it not also quite likely that emotionally unstable people are more likely to develop self-destructive patterns of substance abuse? I mean, it's not like "completely normal 12 year old boys" all start hammering mephedrone.


----------



## Ne0

IsaacE16 said:


> There's a boy I know who at the age of 12 was a completely normal 12 yearold boy a bit shy but normal, at the age of 13 he became seriously addicted to Mephedrone, buying grams in their dozens off the internet, now at the age of 14 he has come off mephedrone, but the damage is done, he has gone insane, don't ask me the ins and outs of it I'm not an expert, but this shy boy, has turned into a loud, twitchy, wreck who is always shouting and can be seen at the local music festival starting fights he always looses pouring beer over himself and passed out in a pool of his own vomit.
> This was a definate result of the mephedrone as the change was to fast and to extreme to just happen over two years naturally



So he cured his shyness? Damn, sounds promising, maybe I should try this "medication" also to cure my shyness.


----------



## agram

deckmunki said:


> I'd appreciate more details from you; how did you find out you have heart disease, what were te signs and symptoms, what's your medical history if any, age, weight, lifestyle, etc?
> 
> The more information you provide, the better the chances you could help someone else who might be in the same situation without realising it.
> 
> What treatment are you getting?



5'11'', near perfect body mass index, a bit unfit though and a smoker. I'm approximately 30 years of age. Never any huge binges that led for more than twelve hours, no ridiculous doses at any one time, and a couple of breaks in between. It was considered quite pure, and looking at some with a microscope out of curiosity made me feel firm in that belief, although certainly not the most scientific method. 

My lifestyle doesn't allow a huge amount of excercise due to the nature of my work, and doesn't leave me with much time to sleep (rarely more than three hours), and I mostly take substances for (mostly) medical reasons that are to do with GABA. I'd experimented 

Symptoms started with extreme dizziness, feintng, extreme palpitations, pain in several areas of my heart (I forget which; my I'd forgotten what the doc said about that) a near heart attack which could have been lethal if there wasn't anyone about, extreme sweating even in extremely mild weather. The minor sympoms started getting much worse about five days after the last use of Meph, and just increased. After the first dose and funzies with it, the minor sympoms started, and grew each time. 

The worst came from the last 'times of using', ie., after my last. It's hard to even call them binges. Probably no more than 400 mg on any one occasion?
No family history of heart disease, although alcoholism has been on both sides of my family. I go in and out of that. I've never had any other health problems, aside from the odd bout of pneuomonia. 

I eat well, cook my own food, grow a lot of it myself. I've settled down a lot from experimenting when I was young with other drugs, and it Mephedrone was just... Well, you go to a party and don't say no. I just find most chems... Well, boring. I've tried a lot when I was young, and it's a case of 'been there, done that'. 

Barrages of tests still going on, most I can't remember the name of. I was in 'perfect health but perhaps needing to get more excercise' in a checkup before trying it. I probably only took on occasion over a period of perhaps... Six weeks?

I'm on several medications since this, but right now am too damn tired and exhausted to get out of bed to check what they are right now. 

I certainly wasn't allergic to this, but certainly _did_ feel some of the symptoms building up over my use. 

Oh, I've also had chronic insomnia, hence the reasons for being on GABAgenics. Only occasionally do I have 'fun' with those. Aside from that, I keep to my dose. 

I'm ridiculously tired right now, so I hope this isn't too vague and incoherrant.


----------



## agram

Oh, forgot to mention two electro cardioversions. 

My heart was fine before. I think that I may stand alone in this, as most folk don't seem to have had such serious reactions. But there could very well be a certain amount of people that these things could happen to? Eh, who the fuck knows. 

Shame the best research we can do with these RCs are human labrat reports PS.


----------



## Scoobysnacks

we all sniffed glue at that age and apart from the asthma and constant herpes of the mouth im just fine for the experience

im not condoning taking glue but i have had some crazy trips on that shit

getting back on topic, meph is highley toxic imo, i have taken twice and both time i felt like death for a week


----------



## vecktor

agram said:


> Oh, forgot to mention two electro cardioversions.
> 
> My heart was fine before. I think that I may stand alone in this, as most folk don't seem to have had such serious reactions. But there could very well be a certain amount of people that these things could happen to? Eh, who the fuck knows.
> 
> Shame the best research we can do with these RCs are human labrat reports PS.



If the p-methylephedrine metabolite is produced in significant amounts (we know it is excreted in urine of meph users) and if like heavy use of ephedrine it produces cardiac damage then heavy use of mephedrone is likely to cause damage. There can be quite a lot of damage before things become noticeable. there are a lot of ifs, but it is possible that meph has done quite a bit of cardiac damage amongst the heavier users. Most heavy meph users are young which will help. Most people though don't have before and after scans, but there are scattered anecdotal reports online of strange ECG and echocardiogram results in meph users.
The good news is that usually ephedrine induced damage went away after several years.


----------



## ColtDan

did a small amount of meph 3 weeks ago and still having minor palpitations. they've never lasted this long before. all tiredness etc has vanished, but these palps wont go away. might go doctors, but i assume all they'll tell me to do is avoid all stims


----------



## agram

I just reckon avoid this shit after what I've been through. 

I was always the 'lighter' user of the group at parties, but I came off worse.  It may have some interaction with certain people that it doesn't with others. 

I've read, known and been told about folk taking quite litteraly twenty-fold the amount I've had in my life and have had less bad effects. It certainly wasn't an allergy for me though. 

I did try Methylone a few times and had great fun, but with no bad effects. Odd. 

I'm glad it's now illegal here in the UK, but it'll likely turn into a shitty cut drug sold on the streets, considering how much so many must have left ove from before the ban. 

Bring back the MDMA, bring back things that have been studied! Not that I'd likely take them, as my curiosity has vanished, and it all seems the same.

Cheers prohibition, you've probably had more to do with giving me heart disease than mephedrone. Without seeming to have been predisposed to heart issues, I've had some fine times on LSD, MDMA, the occasional snort of smack and good coke... 

Eh, I have a lot of journalism experience. Perhaps I may try and get some articles published ((at a a seemingly good time, recession, getting high off the counter, et al) promoting either a tollerance system or a call for more research. Then again, a fat load of good would come of that, no matter where it was published. 

A billion dollar/pound etc war on drugs that kills people, and a billion dollar drugs industry that kills people. This is just fucked.


----------



## YaniCZka

do we have any info on how the former meph users are in Israel? I remember reading that over there it was popular a few years before the UK craze...


----------



## AlkaloidsEye

Seems like i picked a good thread to jump in on.   

 Hello everybody   :D     After being introduced to 4-MMC a few months ago i decided to start looking into it.  Have i tried it? Yes.  Was it fun?  Yes.  Did i have any negative side effects that would cause me personally to stop taking it?  No

 That being said i normally do quite a bit of homework before trying something new.  In this case I didn't and shame on me for it.  :/  

  I have noticed the bluing reaction occur in some people's lips, but nothing beyond that in my circle of acquaintances has been brought to my attention.  My initial use started off with an oral dose of approximately 250mg and was followed up with 2 or 3 bumps.  I found it fun, but it seemed like too much in the sense that i felt i could achieve the same with less.  So over the course of the last few months i have scaled back and found that i have very nice results with an initial dose of around 100-125 mg insufflated with additional doses every 2.5-3 hours.  Normally the follow up doses are also snorted and are between 50-75 mg.

  Although several people had reported having negative effects when combined with cannabis i found that to be entirely opposite of what i and several others have experienced.  Cannabis actually made it a tad more empathogenic and added a very nice, but mild euphoria to things.

  There is some anorexia the next day, but by day two afterwards it's gone.  I have not noticed any troubling aftereffects, but i also have not used more than maybe 400 mg in once session.  Water intake is important as is making sure to eat well prior to ingestion.  As i feel that it causes more than usual potassium and calcium depletion (can't tell why, but it's a hunch) i also have recommended milk/calcium intake before and during and some standards like bananas and citrus fruit.

  I am in moderately good health.  No smoking, no drinking, some cannabis use, occasional use of other entheogens or recreational drugs.  Lots of exercise from a variety of sources, lots of organic whole foods, and fresh air.  The only persistent side effect for me has been the anorexia and that really doesn't last more than one or two days at most.  Otherwise I have a generally elevated mood and energy levels for at least several days afterwards.  

  My sleep is only a bit difficult immediately afterwards, but even then after one good night of sleep it's back to normal.  While i don't get "the blues"/depression from MDMA i find the next day can leave me feeling more physically and mentally tired.  This is much milder, if present at all, with 4-MMC. In general i don't seem to suffer ill effects from stimulants, so take it for what it is worth.  

  It does have hyperthermic effects on me, but about on par with MDMA, although i sweat a little bit more on it when i do get into sweating.  Tactile sensations are very present and very fun, but it is less emphathogenic than MDMA.  On the other hand it does seem to be a potent aphrodisiac for some and i am one of them.      I find it easy to communicate on and I am a bit more talkative from feedback, but that's only noticeable to people who know me very well.

  Sorry for the rambling.. it just occurred to me that this is a good case study to demonstrate how wide a range of reactions people can get to the same compound.  I was noticing while reading through the thread that several of the individuals that reported having generally more negative reactions to the 4-MMC also seemed, from my observations, to respond to stimulants in ways that I do not.  

  Maybe there is a case to be made for genetic compatibility/susceptibility with this drug?  As with all drugs.  Being "only" anecdotal i can recall from personal experience that cocaine, for example, will allow me to be a very attentive listener and very calm.  Not the response many people get from it. 

 I am glad that some warnings have been posted about the drug though as we should all do our best to stay educated about these things.  Some of the amounts that people have been using flabbergast me though.  3,10,20+ gram binges or frequent use?  The only drug i would consider taking in those amounts is cannabis.  Even with researched drugs i wouldn't ingest amounts that some people have.   

  thanks to all the contributors.  I actually did read the first 25 pages.      With all the additional information in hand i will also advise people of potential risks and rewards of doing this still very new drug.


----------



## plantman

> Does anyone have access to this:
> 
> Curr Drug Metab. 2010 Jun 1;11(5):468-82.
> 
> Metabolism of designer drugs of abuse: an updated review.



That's only a review so it won't contain any thing new to Meyer's "Beta-keto amphetamines: studies on the metabolism of the designer drug mephedrone and toxicological detection of mephedrone, butylone, and methylone in urine using gas chromatography-mass spectrometry" paper. Which is summarised at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mephedrone#Metabolism


----------



## strobemylobe

Aug 2010 Clinical characteristics of mephedrone toxicity reported to the UK National Poisons Information Service. Emergency Medical Journal

http://emj.bmj.com/content/early/2010/08/25/emj.2010.096636.full


----------



## DwayneHoover

*MOD: you should be sure everyone viewing this thread sees this*

Pictures of blue knees and limbs after Mephedrone ingestion.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112092

I guess these people noticed this was happening when they used it, took the pics, then one would hope & assume QUIT using it.

Theres more discussion and a user poll here:

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126452


----------



## ColtDan

AlkaloidsEye said:


> After being introduced to 4-MMC a few months ago i decided to start looking into it.  Have i tried it? Yes.  Was it fun?  Yes.  Did i have any negative side effects that would cause me personally to stop taking it?  No




the longer you use it you'll start to notice the negative effects. they dont come immediately


----------



## Leftley

38 grams between 6 people, some taking much more than others in 3 days, no fatalities. I think some people are just allergic to it, the others are the dumbasses who mixed with it.


----------



## sopij

its bad, waaaaay bad, ive seen a guy with a hole in his nose and throat, from normal to that in 3 months and hungreds of G's, fuckin idiot


----------



## activity111

Virtuoso said:


> I'm a bit late to this conversation, obviously, but with the recent increase in meph availability (I was offered it at a party, for Christs sake), I feel it is necessary to point out that while the drug certainly *can *have quite terrible negative effects, for the majority of users it will not have any appreciable long term consequences.  Granted, you don't know if you are going to be in that group who is highly sensitive to the drug, and while I have used it (and never gotten above 400mg in one session of usage) without any negative consequences, it seems important to note that this drug doesn't seem any worse than meth.
> 
> Take that for what its worth, obviously.  Like all drugs -
> 
> *Moderate usage + Self control
> *
> Will more than likely lead to a night with few consequences.  Not saying that mephedrone is a wonder drug thats perfect in every way, as it obviously has some very real potential consequences, it seems that the issues that have arisen have come from the fact that, since it isn't explicitly scheduled, people don't take it as seriously  or treat it with as much respect as a "real" drug like cocaine.  If that hurdle were successfully jumped, I doubt we would see hardly any of the issues we have seen in the past with this drug.



moderate usage + self control ?  hahh
i came to realize there isnt such thing when taking meph 
i was CLOSE pretty darn close to go to sleep 8-9 hours ago ... and then i said well ill be up anyway for 2 more hours ... im just gonna do a small line 
the "bag" is almos gone now .... my nose is stuffed and aches and swollen and my throat aches too when swallowing and my mouth is a bit numb, and i have to go to work in 5 hours (
i just hope it will be an easy day and none will notice my dripping fucked up head ....
but you can always try moderate usage + self control .... 

edit: WOW ... MILK does wonders really ! thanks for the one who recommended it, it made my throat pain go away and also lubricated my mouth , so its not like a desert now  thanks again


----------



## pofacedhoe

activity111 said:


> moderate usage + self control ?  hahh
> i came to realize there isnt such thing when taking meph
> i was CLOSE pretty darn close to go to sleep 8-9 hours ago ... and then i said well ill be up anyway for 2 more hours ... im just gonna do a small line
> the "bag" is almos gone now .... my nose is stuffed and aches and swollen and my throat aches too when swallowing and my mouth is a bit numb, and i have to go to work in 5 hours (
> i just hope it will be an easy day and none will notice my dripping fucked up head ....
> but you can always try moderate usage + self control ....
> 
> edit: WOW ... MILK does wonders really ! thanks for the one who recommended it, it made my throat pain go away and also lubricated my mouth , so its not like a desert now  thanks again



i drank so much milk when i was on mephedrone. the fact you were abusing it the day before work shows the kind of drug this is. its hard not to use meph compulsively and to start binges on impulses and whims.

its best to avoid it as moderate use is hard to do and a rare thing


----------



## kaossalami

Had the chance to do some mephedrone a few weeks ago. I didn't. My friend snorted some and his nasal cavity became so swollen to the point of closing. That's about all I know.


----------



## activity111

yepp had the same feeling
but its not getting better .... either i did too much (binge binge binge) or i also have a cold 

i would also like to add that snorting it , it does irritate your uvula (that little thing that hangs in your mouth.) and throat also .... its corrosive shit ... damn why am i doing this shit ? its EVIL !!!!!
not addicted to it but starting to feel like i am ...

but as i


----------



## Xamkou

I get a cold hand when I'm on the computer cos it's exposed! Bloody Mephedrone! :D


----------



## Scald

I did Meph a couple nights ago, initially intended it as a low dose test to find out the threshold effects... it ended up with 600mg right up the nose (and I've only ever done a line of a crushed up pill before, nothing else).  Shit is very hard to resist doing more of, because you really really want to.  Definately have to say though, don't take this shit if all you're going to do is sit around on your computer, I'm sure the vasoconstriction concerns would be greatly helped if you actually got off your ass and moved around.

Honestly, really enjoyable drug  but also very dangerous, the day after I did have a strong urge to do more (I resisted obviously).  I may be doing it again in a week and a half but it'll be at a rave so going into it me and a friend will have preplanned/measured doses and won't bring any more, taking it 2-3 times orally that night should give us a good time and a good duration without unnecessary health risks.  Note the "not bringing any extra" bit, because I know for a fact I'd take more.

Something else to note:  This shit burns when you rail it, but you rapidly stop caring.  Hell after ONE night of heavy nose abuse I'd actually enjoy the burn of snorting Meph, it's already built up such a strong positive association.  Taking this stuff ends up being a battle of how addictive your personality is vs. your strength of will, I have a very addictive personality which I often (and enjoyably) give in to, but I always have my force of will on standby to say no once it becomes dangerous... not everyone has that buffer.


----------



## vortex30

It's a matter of how addictive your personality is, how strongly willed you are AND how bad the side-effects become (+ your respect for your long-term health). I was on a downward spiral, things were gonna get A LOT worse before they got better if my heart didn't start aching all the time, sharp, shooting pains at time, if I didn't wake up feeling like I had gotten in a fight every night, and if my entire body wasn't in pain. I felt about 60-70 years old, the way my health was going (I was 19 at the time). I couldn't continue to abuse my body that way, so last new year's, after my worst month of drug abuse ever (especially Christmas to New Years, but 98 hours awake at the start of Dec too), I said I'm done. That lasted 3 weeks. Then mid-February I had a MAJOR sess when I went to visit some friends in Quebec, up for 3 days, blacked out one night after taking probably 600mg bomb, took a plane home to Toronto and had 300mg before take-off, etc. Grabbed some Dilaudid that night, took some the next day and thought I would seriously die that day. Still wasn't done. Hahaha. But, my mind was shifting ever since new years and I knew it had to stop. Finished what I had May 13th, after the UK ban (where I only knew how to get meph from), and well...Haven't had any since and won't ever again.

Wasn't a matter of will power though, more a matter of utter fear for the direction that my life and health was headed.


----------



## pofacedhoe

vortex30 said:


> it's a matter of how addictive your personality is, how strongly willed you are and how bad the side-effects become (+ your respect for your long-term health). I was on a downward spiral, things were gonna get a lot worse before they got better if my heart didn't start aching all the time, sharp, shooting pains at time, if i didn't wake up feeling like i had gotten in a fight every night, and if my entire body wasn't in pain. I felt about 60-70 years old, the way my health was going (i was 19 at the time). I couldn't continue to abuse my body that way, so last new year's, after my worst month of drug abuse ever (especially christmas to new years, but 98 hours awake at the start of dec too), i said i'm done. That lasted 3 weeks. Then mid-february i had a major sess when i went to visit some friends in quebec, up for 3 days, blacked out one night after taking probably 600mg bomb, took a plane home to toronto and had 300mg before take-off, etc. Grabbed some dilaudid that night, took some the next day and thought i would seriously die that day. Still wasn't done. Hahaha. But, my mind was shifting ever since new years and i knew it had to stop. Finished what i had may 13th, after the uk ban (where i only knew how to get meph from), and well...haven't had any since and won't ever again.
> 
> Wasn't a matter of will power though, more a matter of utter fear for the direction that my life and health was headed.



qft


----------



## LSDMDMA&AMP

looks like a pimple or something
it looks liek you could probably pop it and pus would come out or something
thats just my opinion tho


----------



## activity111

sorry i deleted my previous post ... and yes it is some pimple stuff thingy ... the "lines" are not visible anymore today
i got a bit too scared i guess


----------



## alex1236

activity111 said:


> moderate usage + self control ?  hahh
> i came to realize there isnt such thing when taking meph



Moderate use and self control is possible.

I had 7 grams of mephedrone when it was legal.  I took out 1/2 gram with me on big nights (mostly once a month) which I would let my mates 'dab' A festival I took 1.  I had some fantastic nights, the first few I would compare to the first time I took Ecstasy (without the emotion) I did get a bit of the cold hands and feet but I get that anyway.

I havent had it for about maybe 4 months now, if I had the option to buy another few grams off the website I did then I would

No harm done, in fact, in the mornings I felt no worse than an alcohol hangover


----------



## ColtDan

ive done it for over a year, once a week, never exceeding 500mg. had some amazing times. but some awful come downs. problem is i mix it with alcohol, im sure it makes things worse


----------



## 7zark7

ColtDan said:


> ive done it for over a year, once a week, never exceeding 500mg. had some amazing times. but some awful come downs. problem is i mix it with alcohol, im sure it makes things worse



I never mixed meph with alcohol and never had a comedown (besides tiredness from lack of sleep!) from it. Never went crazy on the stuff though… I actually miss it since it's been criminalised!


----------



## wakeboardosurf

This is my drone story, it is my point of view of the past few months as it regards to mephedrone, i absolutely love this stuff, and i know its probably an ever growing problem every time i do it. but i very much enjoy it, and take breaks every few days! THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT...


TIPS 

   IF YOU DO NOT HAVE GOOD SELF CONTROL OR ARE ADDICTION PRONE BY NATURE....THIS CAN AND WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE! Ive seen people pawn everything and sell their car just to get it, and these guys were shooting it up..

   It is VERY hard to have it in your possession and NOT do it if you have been on it for any amount of time more than a few minuets.

   You may get an idea in your head that something is really important, or doing something in particular is important, or just an idea that takes over and makes you do stupid things trying to fix it, and then wake up the next day just to realize it was ALL IN YOUR HEAD! It WASNT a big deal at ALL! 

   I get very talkative, and i have connected with so many people in the past few months! Im kinda of a quiet guy unless i really know you well, and this stuff in moderation really helps me connect! I have added probably a hundred new numbers in my phone these past few months! Sometimes I AM the LIFE of the PARTY! Thats SUCH a good feeling! Its amazing! Im a nice guy, and people on drone love nice! Being nice on drone is so amazing, but, lol, sometimes stupid/ignorant/know-it-all people who cant understand what im trying to say, kinda make me mad, and il snap sometimes :/

PAST FEW MONTHS 

Ive been taking Mephedrone for about 4 months now, I was introduced to it by a best  friend who was fortunate enough to get a GOOD connection.  The first few weeks i only had to do a couple or few hundred milligrams (i bought a milligram scale for this stuff) theres ten doses in a gram, and i would get at least .1-.3 every night. By the time the first month went by, i was staying up till 4-6 AM every night! Ahh we had some awesome fun though. then his connection went to rehab, which is where he is now, and my friend moved back home and he is luckily my neighbor! We went 2 weeks without ANY drone, and il tell you what, i felt SO tired for 3-6 days. like i could HARDLY make myself get out of bed and do 
ANYTHING AT ALL! Ahhhh it suckeeeedddd. Buttt i started running, and doing things, and that REALLY helped! I was so surprised in how bad of shape i was! I went from having energy and stamina, to not even being able to run up the stairs without having to sit down from passing out! Man idk about all that now, it scares me! Well the other week he found a new "source" for drone, and all the time we didn't have it i was sending money to different people online trying to get a legit source, but no such luck. Me, my boss, a girl i know and a couple i know all tried this new drone my friend had found recently, it was REALLY fluffy, and it burned really bad!!! LIKE BAD BAD, usually drone burns bad but its never made me gag like this shit did. Everyone experienced it about the same, NO REAL JACKED UP FEELING, AND HARDLY ANY ROLL! And the WORST part is that the next 3 days i felt like i had the flu! Throwing up and everything... It was horrible! I have no idea what it was, but it wasnt like the drone ive come to know and love! WELL now, its been about a month since that bullshit happened, and 

[edit: barely concealed vendor advertisement removed.]

 And since im young and dont HAVE alot of money to be spending on this, i buy only a gram a day, or 3 at most. I then sit aside the portion i have to sell to make my money back (WHICH IS HARD SOMETIMES) and re-up again, and then i do the rest! 

[edit: no really: we do not discuss vendors on this site.]




%)
[edit: we don't allow solicitation of drugs, illegal or legal, on our website!]


----------



## Repulse

A non-stimulant using friend took 3-400mg mephedrone this weekend over the course of a few hours, snorted. 

He overdosed, and suffered tachycardia (pulse upwards of 160) and hypertension (very tense muscles). He became quite hostile and oblivious to his surroundings. Did not care to the fact that his best friends were trying to calm him down, and me and him called an ambulance. They struggled keeping him calm and lying down, and we couldn't get through to him. 

That was approx. at 5 am. When in the hospital, he was moved to the acute/emergency unit approx 7 am, where he was given sedatives for the hypertensive muscle response, and to calm his tachycardia. After that, he calmed down, and at 1 pm the next day, we were allowed to exit the hospital - he was fine after getting some sleep.

Second time this happens to people I know (first time for him, of course) and I decided never to take this stuff ever again, threw the last of the bag out. Never experienced it like that first hand.

Take care out there!


----------



## activity111

wakeboardosurf said:


> This is my drone story, it is my point of view of the past few months as it regards to mephedrone, i absolutely love this stuff, and i know its probably an ever growing problem every time i do it. but i very much enjoy it, and take breaks every few days! THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT...
> 
> 
> TIPS
> 
> IF YOU DO NOT HAVE GOOD SELF CONTROL OR ARE ADDICTION PRONE BY NATURE....THIS CAN AND WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE! Ive seen people pawn everything and sell their car just to get it, and these guys were shooting it up..
> 
> It is VERY hard to have it in your possession and NOT do it if you have been on it for any amount of time more than a few minuets.
> 
> You may get an idea in your head that something is really important, or doing something in particular is important, or just an idea that takes over and makes you do stupid things trying to fix it, and then wake up the next day just to realize it was ALL IN YOUR HEAD! It WASNT a big deal at ALL!
> 
> I get very talkative, and i have connected with so many people in the past few months! Im kinda of a quiet guy unless i really know you well, and this stuff in moderation really helps me connect! I have added probably a hundred new numbers in my phone these past few months! Sometimes I AM the LIFE of the PARTY! Thats SUCH a good feeling! Its amazing! Im a nice guy, and people on drone love nice! Being nice on drone is so amazing, but, lol, sometimes stupid/ignorant/know-it-all people who cant understand what im trying to say, kinda make me mad, and il snap sometimes :/
> 
> PAST FEW MONTHS
> 
> Ive been taking Mephedrone for about 4 months now, I was introduced to it by a best  friend who was fortunate enough to get a GOOD connection.  The first few weeks i only had to do a couple or few hundred milligrams (i bought a milligram scale for this stuff) theres ten doses in a gram, and i would get at least .1-.3 every night. By the time the first month went by, i was staying up till 4-6 AM every night! Ahh we had some awesome fun though. then his connection went to rehab, which is where he is now, and my friend moved back home and he is luckily my neighbor! We went 2 weeks without ANY drone, and il tell you what, i felt SO tired for 3-6 days. like i could HARDLY make myself get out of bed and do
> ANYTHING AT ALL! Ahhhh it suckeeeedddd. Buttt i started running, and doing things, and that REALLY helped! I was so surprised in how bad of shape i was! I went from having energy and stamina, to not even being able to run up the stairs without having to sit down from passing out! Man idk about all that now, it scares me! Well the other week he found a new "source" for drone, and all the time we didn't have it i was sending money to different people online trying to get a legit source, but no such luck. Me, my boss, a girl i know and a couple i know all tried this new drone my friend had found recently, it was REALLY fluffy, and it burned really bad!!! LIKE BAD BAD, usually drone burns bad but its never made me gag like this shit did. Everyone experienced it about the same, NO REAL JACKED UP FEELING, AND HARDLY ANY ROLL! And the WORST part is that the next 3 days i felt like i had the flu! Throwing up and everything... It was horrible! I have no idea what it was, but it wasnt like the drone ive come to know and love! WELL now, its been about a month since that bullshit happened, and I have recently found one really nice and very reliable source, and its the tiny tiny crystaly lookin drone! And since im young and dont HAVE alot of money to be spending on this, i buy only a gram a day, or 3 at most. I then sit aside the portion i have to sell to make my money back (WHICH IS HARD SOMETIMES) and re-up again, and then i do the rest! Today i met another source, and its the big crystaly drone! This guy is well plugged in, and im looking forward to our future... THE CRYSTALY DRONE IS AMAZING LOL! It is WAY better than the powder! Re-crystalized is the way to go!
> 
> 
> %)
> [edit: we don't allow solicitation of drugs, illegal or legal, on our website!]



DUDE !!!

Better cut all sources and snap back to reality, better do coke or anything else no matter if its 4-5x-10x the price ... not like im doing any of that.
I had my share of meph and thank you very much i just realized stimulants fuck you up badly.
BUT meph ... pffff its tottaly different thing, imho if poison poison poison ... with a bit of euphoria ... mehhh ... F F F that , really.

Can only advise everyone to stay the heck away from this VERY VERY TOXIC RESEARCH CHEMICAL.

Its not just neuro and cardio toxic, but it damages your whole body, like a bad poison would do, it also messes with your blood sugar levels .

NASTY NASTY NASTY.
Hope i recover fast .

Dont even want to hear from this.


----------



## 10below

I really wish I would have found this thread yesterday. I did what I believe to be 'Mephedrone' called 'Cloud 9 High Quality Bath Salts' and I definitely regret it. I only did .25 of a gram, but it has made me realize that I don't want to do any drugs any longer, except for pot. 

But the worst thing is I turned on my girl who I dearly love. I haven't talked to her yet today but I hope she is feeling okay, she did a lot less than I did. 

I'm hoping these side effects go away. My brain is working really slow and I'm having trouble typing and just thinking in general. This stuff is definitely not worth it. I can't believe how fucking stupid I am for doing this. I hope this feeling of zombieness leaves soon... and I hope my motor skills aren't permantely fucked.


----------



## Ralt

10below said:
			
		

> I really wish I would have found this thread yesterday. I did what I believe to be 'Mephedrone' called 'Cloud 9 High Quality Bath Salts' and I definitely regret it. I only did .25 of a gram, but it has made me realize that I don't want to do any drugs any longer, except for pot.
> 
> But the worst thing is I turned on my girl who I dearly love. I haven't talked to her yet today but I hope she is feeling okay, she did a lot less than I did.
> 
> I'm hoping these side effects go away. My brain is working really slow and I'm having trouble typing and just thinking in general. This stuff is definitely not worth it. I can't believe how fucking stupid I am for doing this. I hope this feeling of zombieness leaves soon... and I hope my motor skills aren't permantely fucked.


That doesn't sound like mephedrone at all. Especially turning on someone you love, 10 out of 10 times, people who love each other tend to hug and rub each other on meph, the word "angry" isn't even really possible.


----------



## 10below

Ralt said:


> That doesn't sound like mephedrone at all. Especially turning on someone you love, 10 out of 10 times, people who love each other tend to hug and rub each other on meph, the word "angry" isn't even really possible.




Oh, no, I mean 'turned on' like 'turned her on to the drug', not like turned violent on her. And I was worried about her not answering the phone because she left saying she was really exhausted and I was hoping she hadn't passed in her sleep.

I'm thinking now, from other readings, that the substance may have been this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDPV


----------



## Xbob

Here are my experiences with 4-MMC. I've used drugs extensively in the past, particularly alcohol, amphetamine sulphate, MDMA, LSD, mushrooms, cannabis, tobacco, cocaine and various other drugs such as ketamine, 2cb and some pharmaceutical opiates and benzos to a lesser extent. I've been a tee-total non-smoker for the past 3 or so years and I don't take any drugs that I consider I've had a problem with in the past which basically means that I take a little cannabis and a little MDMA occasionally these days in controlled circumstances. 
Since giving up a wreckhead lifestyle I've become something of a fitness fanatic and I play football (soccer) very regularly. I tried 4-MMC a couple of times out of interest because I felt it fitted my criteria for drugs I will take these days i.e. I've never had a problem with it and I'm unlikely to be in regular contact with it. The first time I snorted 2 small lines, approximately 100mg each and then on the second occasion I bombed 600mg in two 300mg doses. While I did enjoy the experience to some extent I didn't find it anywhere near as good as MDMA and I thought it was more like poor quality cocaine and I found the compulsion to redose unbearable, to the point that I went home to avoid taking more than I had planned to. I took some benzos (nitrazepam) and went to sleep. I felt a bit rough the next day with some symptoms like I had a common cold. The next day I played football and this is where I ran into problems. I felt totally unfit, like I hadn't exercised for a long time. My heart felt like it was going to burst out of my chest and I poured with sweat. I was well off the pace and really struggled to complete the game. It took me several weeks to get back my fitness levels after this and I vowed not to do 4-MMC again because of this effect. I'm convinced that this drug is really not good for you at all. I'm well in touch with my body and I felt poisoned by this drug. I'm not the only member of my football team who it has adversely affected. I think it's totally ruined the fitness of one guy who has used it heavily and I really don't think he'll ever be the same player which is unfortunate because he is talented. That's my anecdotal evidence anyway, for what it's worth. Which probably isn't much.


----------



## simstimstar

Ralt said:


> That doesn't sound like mephedrone at all. Especially turning on someone you love, 10 out of 10 times, people who love each other tend to hug and rub each other on meph, the word "angry" isn't even really possible.



While this is normally true, it isn't always.  I got amphetamine psychosis after staying up over a week on mephedrone (only had 1 or two nights sleep before staying up 5 or 6 days before that) and attacked my cousin, who I love like a brother, for no reason.  I still have a scar on my knee and above my eye from where the cops tackled me.

And as for MDPV...there are things I did on MDPV that I will never speak of with any other living person except my buddy who was right there with me.  You can't even imagine, just know you don't ever want to go so far down that hole.

MDPV and mephedrone are both extremely addictive.  MDPV in particular will quickly degenerate into paranoia, anxiety, and psychosis.  Especially if you are smoking it (best high) or IV'ing it (or in my case both).

Would I do either again, yes. Would I ever want to stay up and binge for days like I did on both, never.

Cheers, and be safe.
-SimStim

UPDATE - Also, of the two MDPV feels much safer on the body, but the euphoria is only a fraction of that from 4-mmc, and for some the anxiety is unbearable.  I have seen people take one hit smoking MDPV and get up and leave the house because of panic attack.


----------



## sundayraver

This has turned into a mephedrone experiences thread.  Any more scientific facts regarding this drug?


----------



## activity111

Xbob said:


> Here are my experiences with 4-MMC. I've used drugs extensively in the past, particularly alcohol, amphetamine sulphate, MDMA, LSD, mushrooms, cannabis, tobacco, cocaine and various other drugs such as ketamine, 2cb and some pharmaceutical opiates and benzos to a lesser extent. I've been a tee-total non-smoker for the past 3 or so years and I don't take any drugs that I consider I've had a problem with in the past which basically means that I take a little cannabis and a little MDMA occasionally these days in controlled circumstances.
> Since giving up a wreckhead lifestyle I've become something of a fitness fanatic and I play football (soccer) very regularly. I tried 4-MMC a couple of times out of interest because I felt it fitted my criteria for drugs I will take these days i.e. I've never had a problem with it and I'm unlikely to be in regular contact with it. The first time I snorted 2 small lines, approximately 100mg each and then on the second occasion I bombed 600mg in two 300mg doses. While I did enjoy the experience to some extent I didn't find it anywhere near as good as MDMA and I thought it was more like poor quality cocaine and I found the compulsion to redose unbearable, to the point that I went home to avoid taking more than I had planned to. I took some benzos (nitrazepam) and went to sleep. I felt a bit rough the next day with some symptoms like I had a common cold. The next day I played football and this is where I ran into problems. I felt totally unfit, like I hadn't exercised for a long time. My heart felt like it was going to burst out of my chest and I poured with sweat. I was well off the pace and really struggled to complete the game. It took me several weeks to get back my fitness levels after this and I vowed not to do 4-MMC again because of this effect. I'm convinced that this drug is really not good for you at all. I'm well in touch with my body and I felt poisoned by this drug. I'm not the only member of my football team who it has adversely affected. I think it's totally ruined the fitness of one guy who has used it heavily and I really don't think he'll ever be the same player which is unfortunate because he is talented. That's my anecdotal evidence anyway, for what it's worth. Which probably isn't much.



Hello
While it might not be much it still tells us a lot about this crappy substance that so many abuse.
Thinking that a soccer (hobby) player would be FIT and HEALTHY ... at least if someone would play weekly his circulation would be better then for those who dont exercise so much.
So thinking about this + reading what you wrote : " I felt totally unfit, like I hadn't exercised for a long time. " just makes me think about HOW bad this is for your circulation.
Just think about it.
CARDIO TOXIC & OTHER TOXIC
People should learn about this imho and stop doing all sorts of new crappy untested substances.
I totally understand you and am sorry for your friend , hope you all get better and fit again ... and i hope I get better and fit again soon. After a 2+1/2 week (with sleep & eating & little breaks) i felt like poisoned .... my body is still recovering  after 2 weeks of not using it.
I did a little bit of exercise since, i am smoking ... but less then before ... my fingertips look redder then normal and my hands get blotchy at times, sux. Big toes "inner" part are numbish ... sux

Do anything else like MDMA, coke, anythng else but not 4-MMC poison or other dubious RC's.
Cheers


----------



## DexterMeth

I'd rather smoke crack, and even that is stupid.


----------



## baddog72

blobbymahn said:


> perhaps he just turned into a teenager?



hahahah!!!


----------



## Quincy

jac1999 said:


> I  never take much (500 mg max over 10 hours) but always seem to get a very sore throat and a shit load of really annoying mouth ulcers. Anyone have the same and tips as to how to avoid this???



Hey jac , I've been in emergency medicine for nineteen yrs now and used to get those mouth ulcers quite frequently until I found a quick fix for them about ten yrs ago. I'm not going to go into any patho about them, I'll just tell you how to get instant relief of pain from most of them and increase resolution of ulcers by 2/3 time.  You will need to get a Rx for a potent topical steroid called lidex- its available in several different strengths and preparations-  i use the 0.05% solution.  Saturate a q tip with the lidex and hold it on every ulcer in your mouth, it will burn sometimes, but it is well worth the pain relief. Initially I apply
It 2-3 times on the first application.   Then I apply to affected areas 3-4 times per day as needed afterwards. You will be amazed at the results. Very little risk involved unless you are a diabetic or use it long term daily.  Well good luck. Hope it works for you.   Quincy


----------



## Sentience

Is Methylone considered significantly safer and less toxic?

Compared to Mephedrone, on average for most users, is it any less likely to produce anxiety?


----------



## Rio Fantastic

Sentience said:


> Is Methylone considered significantly safer and less toxic?
> 
> Compared to Mephedrone, on average for most users, is it any less likely to produce anxiety?



Afaik, there have been less reports of severe vasoconstriction and feeling like you have an "exploding heart" etc, but nobody really knows anything solid about either chemicals, all the evidence is anecdotal and based on speculation. It'd be nice if some studies on the long term effects were done, so we'd at least have some idea of the kind of damage we're doing.


----------



## Sentience

sadfsfd


----------



## Cambo

Wow, reading some things here it seems 500mg is a high dose at times ha...

My area is pretty bad, every second person I know sells it (so they can supply themselves). Each person probably goes through at least 2-3g a night (one of my friends snorted an ounce in 3 nights (upto you if you believe me or not, but thats nearly 10g a night)). Nobody takes any other drugs, it'd take me 5x as long to even get hash/grass. No pills/MDMA, or Charlie hah!
People would do it throughout the week, even if they were working the next day they would stay up snorting and go to work, still awake.

I probably took the least out of everyone, but still at least 500mg a night, I've tended to describe it like ecstacy-lite, and loved it (not as much as pills but, I loved not having a comedown :D).

I've now decided to stop taking it (well, lets see how I manage this weekend...) because after 1-2g I uncontrollably shake, 2 days since I last touched it (quite a bit) and I'm still twitching and feel a bit spaced. Also it feels as though I'm starting to hurt inside (my kidneys mostly).

Do I think I'm addicted to it? In a way probably, in the terms that I would keep taking it even though I'm pretty much flying about the room with the shakes... But no withdrawal symptoms etc. (except for the fiending feeling... but I dont get it that bad :D)

IMO its a great drug, like everything in moderation is great, taking it a lot its still great (but not if you take lots in a single session, the tolerance rockets, no magic in it at all eventually.)
I just worry about how much I've fucked myself up taking so much.

As with all drugs your better off never touching it, but if you do, make sure you can control it... It can very easily get out of hand!


----------



## ColtDan

i cant find any decent mephedrone anymore. the stuff around here has hit an all time low. did some stuff on saturday night that had zero effect on me. first time ive done any for about 3 months, had a big break from meph and feel much better for it, heart palps, red knuckles, cold hands and paranoia has gone


----------



## ColtDan

Cambo said:


> and loved it (not as much as pills but, I loved not having a comedown :D).



if you carry on doing meph theres a good chance you'll get a come down. the come down is fucking horrendous


----------



## Cambo

ColtDan said:


> if you carry on doing meph theres a good chance you'll get a come down. the come down is fucking horrendous



I've actually heard the comedown is really bad several times, but even after 3 day binges on it I've always been fine  maybe I should do more and see  kidding! haha.

A friend of mine (pretty much on it every single day, now stopping) said the comedown has been so bad hes thought of self harm/suicide. Lucky hes not the type of person who would actually do it. He knows it would go away...

Dont want to experience it...


----------



## ebola?

> Is Methylone considered significantly safer and less toxic?



By far, as the alpha-hydroxylated metabolite is not nearly as potently adrenergic, and people tend to be less likely to binge on m1.

ebola


----------



## ebola?

> Is Methylone considered significantly safer and less toxic?



By far, as the beta-hydroxylated metabolite is not nearly as potently adrenergic, and people tend to be less likely to binge on m1.

edit: appending to correct silly error.

ebola


----------



## ColtDan

Cambo said:


> I've actually heard the comedown is really bad several times, but even after 3 day binges on it I've always been fine  maybe I should do more and see  kidding! haha.
> 
> A friend of mine (pretty much on it every single day, now stopping) said the comedown has been so bad hes thought of self harm/suicide. Lucky hes not the type of person who would actually do it. He knows it would go away...
> 
> Dont want to experience it...



after a few months of that useage i reckon you'll experience it. although ive only had the horrible come downs from decent meph, no idea how good your stuff is. Pre-ban was fucking amazing, but havnt tried anything half as good for a long time. yeah the come downs make you suicidal. i lost motivation, had depression, anxiety, paranoid, suicidal for a few days. all that was on my mind was "whats the point in this shit, i cant be assed anymore" and almost quit my job there and then. battled through it, recovered.... then did more meph. got a come down, recovered.... then did more meph. lol. dunno if combining it with alcohol made the come down worse or not. the high was god like though


----------



## Lady Codone

Wow.  I would not even consider coming down without some sort of serotonin booster on hand.  Even with Prozac it was godawful--2 weeks of extreme fatigue and feeling "blah" emotionally.  ...which is why I only indulge every other month now


----------



## negrogesic

In these cases it is best to assume that it is acutely toxic, than to fool oneself into justifying its consumption through anecdotal responses like, "Uh.....I don't feel any brain damage yet"..............

There are qualitatively many superior drugs that least have been "better researched" as to their toxicity. Again, if it is an unknown, expect the worse.

Not sure if i'd rather smoke crack.......maybe IV cocaine of a known purity.....


----------



## thomas2laylum

mephedrone is some next shit
i cant believe it blew up as big as it did

it's a pleasure-whore kind of drug
my friend said her dealer's spoon (which was regularly used to spoon out the powder) was all eroded and rusty

so go figure....


----------



## Cambo

ColtDan said:


> after a few months of that useage i reckon you'll experience it. although ive only had the horrible come downs from decent meph, no idea how good your stuff is. Pre-ban was fucking amazing, but havnt tried anything half as good for a long time. yeah the come downs make you suicidal. i lost motivation, had depression, anxiety, paranoid, suicidal for a few days. all that was on my mind was "whats the point in this shit, i cant be assed anymore" and almost quit my job there and then. battled through it, recovered.... then did more meph. got a come down, recovered.... then did more meph. lol. dunno if combining it with alcohol made the come down worse or not. the high was god like though



Well I've took it like every weekend since October... Except now.
I never had the chance to try it before it was illegal... Wish I did  but the stuff I get has been getting better every week (which is the main reason people who are 'off it' usualy get on it to try how good it is haha) apparently its close to pre-ban, but the storys of legal stuff doesn't sound anything like this, never got much of a buzz after three 5-10cm lines...? (When other people outside our group see these lines they almost shit themselves hehe) Although I went outside into the rain which always kills my buzz!

Meph is fucking addictive haha. Fuck that though, I've had friends who have seriously thought about suicide sober in the past, (not anymore, he hates that kinda conversation now) but he's pretty much never off it... Hes got to be a bit of a risk 
Drinking seems to make everything worse... I still do it regardless haha.


----------



## Transform

Lady Codone said:


> Wow.  I would not even consider coming down without some sort of serotonin booster on hand.  Even with Prozac it was godawful--2 weeks of extreme fatigue and feeling "blah" emotionally.  ...which is why I only indulge every other month now



Prozac is an SSRI. SSRIs are well known for taking a while to have an effect (months) and would not be effective for soothing a comedown.


----------



## Lady Codone

They do take a while to work, but not months.  Not for me anyway.  2 weeks is about the average it takes me to start feeling it again after quitting for awhile.  Maybe I should've said they help re-balance my serotonin levels after the acute comedown or smtg.  I forget this is ADD


----------



## pofacedhoe

penpal said:


> is 1 gram snorted throught out the night considerded alot?



i've gone thro five over a couple of days.

its a drug i do not miss one little bit


----------



## sackynut

the come down or WDs are definitely horrendous. Holy shite. I started crying a couple times the first day, over meaningless bullshit, because I was coming down nearing the WD state.


----------



## vortex30

penpal said:


> is 1 gram snorted throught out the night considerded alot?



When I was using Mephedrone, 1 gram in a night was pretty much the standard, if not more. Most people I know would consider that to be an average night with the stuff, but we were into it pretty hard. Looking back now, 1 gram in a night seems to be too much if you're concerned with health, keeping your tolerance low, and dealing with comedowns. I'd say 500-750mg in a night would be considered 'moderate' by me.


----------



## MikeHawk

Sentience said:


> Is Methylone considered significantly safer and less toxic?
> 
> Compared to Mephedrone, on average for most users, is it any less likely to produce anxiety?



To be honest my two experiences on methylone were much more scary than any of my ~100 experiences on mephedrone.  Mephedrone is more toxic only due to the fact users tend to dose multiple times.  I personally believe methylone is more psychologically draining for the following days though.


----------



## pofacedhoe

penpal said:


> how frequently would the average person need to redose to become addicted?



how long is a peice of string?

stupid question as everyone is different


----------



## fryingsquirrel

Not trying to be a dick, but it really is different for everyone. It isn't physically addictive, so it isn't a question like "how long can you do heroin before WD's?". If you are someone who loves stims, has an addictive personality, and has a lot of mephedrone available when you try it  psychological addiction could be near instant.


----------



## Xamkou

I would say I'm addicted to it, I take it every 3 or 4 days and when I take it a session usually lasts 24+ hours.


----------



## harvester

No hoe here. You need to understand that it's a bit of a silly question. It's like asking "how fast is a car?". Even if you got an answer, it wouldn't be useful. I understand what you're wanting to know, and why, but that information doesn't exist.


----------



## lagger

cant be worse than coke


----------



## pofacedhoe

lagger said:


> cant be worse than coke



its more addictive (than cocaine) in mine and quite few people i have come across's experinces. its THE most addictive drug i have ever tried, pure and simply its brutal and getting away from it is the best thing you can do


----------



## vortex30

pofacedhoe said:


> its more addictive (than cocaine) in mine and quite few people i have come across's experinces. its THE most addictive drug i have ever tried, pure and simply its brutal and getting away from it is the best thing you can do



Totally agree. Nothing gripped me so fast, for so long, and took me as far down as Mephedrone.


----------



## psood0nym

*UK cocaine use cut in half during mephedrone boom*

Interesting quote from a recent talk by Prof. Nutt:


> Mephedrone was banned before we had any proven deaths from it. Most of those reported turned out to be caused by something else. But during the year when it was a popular drug, *deaths from cocaine fell by half, saving around 40 lives*.


Source
From all the nasty reports I figured meph was probably more dangerous than cocaine. Perhaps it is more addictive on average, and it does seem to cause even more vasoconstriction than cocaine, and maybe it causes greater bodily harm than cocaine in other ways short of death, but in terms of blunt mortality this finding that cocaine use was cut in half during the UK mephedrone boom and that substituting with mephedrone perhaps aided in saving far more lives than it ended makes mephedrone look like a, ahem, harm reduction drug! I'm not really defending meph, just saying that if this is true for the reasons the Prof. says it would be remiss to ignore it.


----------



## SimonMagus

You guys may want to check out this thread I started. Mods may want to combine them.

*Does mephedrone trigger Stevens-Johnson syndrome?*

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=552200


----------



## MeDieViL

SimonMagus said:


> You guys may want to check out this thread I started. Mods may want to combine them.
> 
> *Does mephedrone trigger Stevens-Johnson syndrome?*
> 
> http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=552200



Thats the wrong link:
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=552121


----------



## MeDieViL

Well, ive just read another report about a guy being hospitalized with the blue knee thing, something that is common in those reports is that in the hospital they detect normal oxygen levels and everything appears normal wich imo does indicate its not just normalk vasoconstriction being at play here, other stimulants also appear to retrigger those symptons, perhaps due to inflammation.


----------



## MeDieViL

Wikipedia mentions a guy being hospitilized with inflammation on the heart, looks like that is the issue, inflammation, rather then vasoconstriction. There havent been any reports of the start of necrosis with is rather odd (something i have experienced myself, extreme vasoconstriction, turning blue/purple and the start of necrosis in my neck, it cleared up after a few weeks tough, this wasnt related to mephedrone).


----------



## SimonMagus

Sorry for the bad link, and thanks for the correction.

Inflammation is just another symptom of the 'root cause', I think.  One of the links posted in the thread I tried to reference suggests the inflammation is an auto-immune response, resulting in vasculitis.  Here is a direct link to that source document (I'll test it first):   http://www.setox.org/Archivos/Noticias/Mephedrone.pdf

And there is some other supporting evidence in that particular post:  http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=9276462


----------



## MeDieViL

I'm pretty sure its not just vasoconstriction being at play here.

Yesterday after taking mephedrone i experienced the exact same symptons after i took, 2 gram flephedrone last summer.

- Sudden fatigue and inability to get high, despite taking huge doses of other stimulants
- Rod spots, some sort of rash appearing somewhere
- Rash gets worse and skin looks alot darker

I assume those are the first symptons after wich the blue knee thing can turn up, its not just vasoconstriction but whatcauses this defeats me.


----------



## MeDieViL

Seems that the para substitued ephedrine's cause some sort of inflammation, autoimmume reaction, i would gues there should be case reports of simular things occuring with ephedrine.


----------



## ebola?

If sure that this was already mentioned, but 5ht2b agonism is NOT good in a drug that one doses with frequency and intensity similar to how a coke addict approaches coke.  MDxx has significant agonism here, but people tend to be marginally sensible dosing them.  We should expect mephedrone to too.  Along the lines of your hypothesis, maybe this type of cardiac strain, coupled with severe, persisting adrenergic stimulation, could induce some sort of auto-immune feedback loop (it's somewhat plausible, as we'd expect cardiac inflammation from 5ht2b agonism, and para-modified ephedrines should severely fuck with adrenergic function, which mediates this type of allergic response).  This line of reasoning remains highly speculative though.

ebola


----------



## MeDieViL

Does 5HT2B agonism cause inflammation acutely? My understanding was that only months of chronic exposure cause fibrosis, and thus likely not behind the adverse reaction we see with mephedrone.

While speculative, the vasoconstriction theory is much more questionable imo, as never there was cardiovascular issues detected in any emergency department and many talk about a "rash" going on too.


----------



## starlove

Hi Folks, having just come off my usual mix of mephedrone and methylone I thought my experience might be of some interest. I'm in my mid fifties and really should be past it but about a year ago when the Media started shouting about headshops, and how their products really worked, I had a hankering after my younger days of cannabis and acid (mushies when acid wasn't available) and ordered a gram of each on the net. As anyone reading this can guess my mind, which had been clean for many years was totally blown! I couldn't believe it! Something this good was being delivered to my door by the postman. I quickly ordered 30g of each which duly arrived and I felt I was the happiest person in the world. My mix was 125mg of each and I figured that if I did this twice a month my stash would last me 10 years. For 4 or 5 months I actually kept to this but I eventually got to like it too much. I progressively did more and more and finally blew the final 30g in the last 10 weeks. My neck is still a bit sore, my lower back is a bit sore, (I finished the last gram 2 days ago) and I broke a filling in a tooth from gurning at the beginning, since fixed by the dentist. I do not regret a single minute of the experience, which I believe that I will not repeat, but I have enormous sympathy for the younger people whose supply is not limited like mine was and are developing addiction problems. Although I have always felt myself to be completely in control of my substance intake these drugs showed me that I was not. Apologies if I've bored anyone and take care.


----------



## MeDieViL

I should also note that after my flephedrone incident last summer, i started getting several allergic reactions to random recreational substances i took, even when i tried baclofen, also on desoxy i noticed i had the blue knee syndrome, wich other ppl have also reported to come back (in my case first time i had it tough) after they try another stimulant unrelated to mephedrone.

After 2 weeks i didnt get any random allergy's anymore.

Either way, flephedrone isnt free of those side effects as first tought.

This was never reported with mephedrone, but its likely 4 fluoro ephedrine has distinct toxiticy issues.


----------



## ebola?

> Does 5HT2B agonism cause inflammation acutely? My understanding was that only months of chronic exposure cause fibrosis, and thus likely not behind the adverse reaction we see with mephedrone.




Many of these reactions appear based on chronic exposure.  Hypersensitization to future acute exposure to irritants seems common with auto-immune disorders.

ebola


----------



## MeDieViL

This reaction doesnt really look like a real allergy tough, having experienced allergy's they cause hives wich look completely differend and also causes a major itch, wich wasnt the case here or last time.
Also the fact that some of this reaction comes back on other stim suggests that this isnt a response to a sensitized allergen.

Chronic, in the short term, once the metabolites reach high enough concentrations those problems appear to occur, in my case this was both after a high dose with flephedrone and mephedrone (with lower doses on other occasions not causing any reactions, tough i only used mephedrone 4 times or something). For fibrosis you need to be exposed for weeks atleast.


----------



## rakketakke

MeDieViL said:


> This reaction doesnt really look like a real allergy tough, having experienced allergy's they cause hives wich look completely differend and also causes a major itch, wich wasnt the case here or last time.
> Also the fact that some of this reaction comes back on other stim suggests that this isnt a response to a sensitized allergen.
> 
> Chronic, in the short term, once the metabolites reach high enough concentrations those problems appear to occur, in my case this was both after a high dose with flephedrone and mephedrone (with lower doses on other occasions not causing any reactions, tough i only used mephedrone 4 times or something). For fibrosis you need to be exposed for weeks atleast.





MeDieViL said:


> I should also note that after my flephedrone incident last summer, i started getting several allergic reactions to random recreational substances i took, even when i tried baclofen, also on desoxy i noticed i had the blue knee syndrome, wich other ppl have also reported to come back (in my case first time i had it tough) after they try another stimulant unrelated to mephedrone.
> 
> After 2 weeks i didnt get any random allergy's anymore.
> 
> Either way, flephedrone isnt free of those side effects as first tought.
> 
> This was never reported with mephedrone, but its likely 4 fluoro ephedrine has distinct toxiticy issues.



Wewt someone else from Belgium who has heard from Desoxy . Thanks for sharing your experience with it. I sparingly use amphetamines (and therefore I binge) thus this substance has lost all of it's appeal because of it's fiendish behaviour.


----------



## MeDieViL

Antwerp too i see!:D


----------



## MeDieViL

Didnt take anymore mephedrone and after several hours cleared up completely, i assume when the metabolite left my body, i did end up taking other drugs later without any negative effects. (which may have had positive effects because of imunosupression?) either way i'm 100% fine now, i beleive that if i kept on taking mephedrone i could have gotten a much worse reaction and possibly the same issue with it coming back later).


----------



## ThatGuyWeAllKnow

vecktor said:


> congratulations lab rat, looks like you have discovered that abscence of evidence of harm is not evidence of the abscence of harm.
> 
> sounds like vasoconstriction, perhaps due to alpha adrenergic activity of the hydroxy metabolite, and if your limbs don't actually die or have to be amputated they will recover eventually.
> 
> breathing deeply makes no difference, the tissue oxygen levels are not going to be much effected, because the oxygenated blood is not getting where it should, deep breathing can cause other problems due to hyperventilation.
> 
> *this drug and its parafluoro relative should be left alone, it appears to have killed at least once and is responsible for hospitalisations in the UK.*
> 
> just so you know what vasoconstriction caused by RC's looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the toxicology profile of mephedrone at the moment seems very similar to that of PMMA paramethoxymethamphetamine and PMA which has killed scores of people.
> 
> I make no apology for posting these images (incidentally they are from a bromodragonfly overdose) if it stops one person from dying.
> 
> taking these things is always a gamble but the downside risks in this game can be very high, if you treat these things as harmless fun and don't afford them the respect they deserve, then you can be severely hurt.



um....that second picture is of a laceration isnt it?


----------



## sackynut

the second picture is of an amputation that occurred when someone overdosed on Bromo Dragonfly, im not sure if it had to do with vasoconstriction or not. 

whats the first picture?


----------



## ThatGuyWeAllKnow

sackynut said:


> the second picture is of an amputation that occurred when someone overdosed on Bromo Dragonfly, im not sure if it had to do with vasoconstriction or not.
> 
> whats the first picture?



so why did they amputate it? so they had ALREADY didnt have half his fingers then he got a huge cut on his hand? like was that a accident that happened  becuase he/she was dealing with knifes or something, or somehow its directly connected to the bromodf?


----------



## sackynut

^ i believe the BrDrgonfly caused such intense vasoconsctriction that if they didnt amputate, it would have fucked some shit up HARDCORE in his hand/body, possibly leading to death? dont quote me on that though, i tried looking for thread on another board but didnt find it after a quick search. 

im pretty sure it had nothing to do with him taking a knife to his hand while tripping, it was just adverse physical side effects.

ive taken very large amounts of meph, in binged too (ive since stopped, its nasty stuff) and while I experienced same major heart trauma, breathing problems and fatigue, i never once noticed vasoconstriction, no purple or blue extremities, and my veins were still gigantic as ever (big veins runs in the family). perhaps vasoconstriction and 5ht2b agonism/heart issues arise from different amounts and types of impurities?


----------



## pofacedhoe

basically i used to think meph didn't turn me blue, but then last year new years eve i had a binge to end all binges and after taking about 8 grams over a number of days i started to get the blue skin and thing where skin on my lips and feet were peeling off. enough to put me off since


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## BoomBoxer

I never had any of the blue skin. I actually had 2 different batches of meph, the first one had a really strong smell and although i had no blue skin i did notice pins and needles from time to time in my hands and even more rarely feet.

The second batch i had had no smell what so ever, i was even unsure if it was meph when it landed on my doorstep, after using though i am sure it was. All the same effects but not once did i get pins and needles.

This does make me think it may have been down to impuritites. 

A hell of a lot of people slag meph off and tell people to get some "real" drugs, I have tried a range of real drugs ranging from Coke (Powder and Crack) - MDMA- LSD - Apmetamines - Etc , and im still of the opinion that meph was my favourite drug by far, it still pisses me off now that because of the way use exploded, kids started taking it and the media jumped on it that it got banned.

I just wish i had bought a large amount to store for personal use before the ban, i have had emails since the ban from a company i have bought from telling me they have meph still but theres just no way in a million years i would risk that now. Even if it were not a scam the risks must be massive.


----------



## ColtDan

ive been doing meph for years, i still miss the decent pre-ban stuff. however the side effects are nasty, the come down is fucking brutal, ive had red/purpley hands, pins and needles, waking up with numb hands, heart palps, anxiety, depression, paranoia. this is from half a gram once a week on a saturday night for years. the high is incredible, meph is amazing when you get decent stuff. i used to combine it with alcohol and have some incredible nights. no memory loss, a state of perfection. now i try and avoid it, but the sad fact is whenever im drunk i crave meph, alcohol on its own is like tits without nipples.... its not right. its ok but its not enough


----------



## pofacedhoe

BoomBoxer said:


> I never had any of the blue skin. I actually had 2 different batches of meph, the first one had a really strong smell and although i had no blue skin i did notice pins and needles from time to time in my hands and even more rarely feet.
> 
> The second batch i had had no smell what so ever, i was even unsure if it was meph when it landed on my doorstep, after using though i am sure it was. All the same effects but not once did i get pins and needles.
> 
> This does make me think it may have been down to impuritites.
> 
> A hell of a lot of people slag meph off and tell people to get some "real" drugs, I have tried a range of real drugs ranging from Coke (Powder and Crack) - MDMA- LSD - Apmetamines - Etc , and im still of the opinion that meph was my favourite drug by far, it still pisses me off now that because of the way use exploded, kids started taking it and the media jumped on it that it got banned.
> 
> I just wish i had bought a large amount to store for personal use before the ban, i have had emails since the ban from a company i have bought from telling me they have meph still but theres just no way in a million years i would risk that now. Even if it were not a scam the risks must be massive.



the more often you take it the more you will notice side effects. i took it for years and it crept up to seeing the dodgy sides of it. 

dont miss it one bit...


----------



## Chatative

I certainly felt the side effects crept up after a few weeks of regular use... but that's why I've always taken long breaks of 2-3 months after my use creeped up over a month or so.

I hadn't used any since the ban until November and to be honest, I didn't get that much side effects at all. Was only after a couple of weeks heavy use that the brutal comedown, feeling sick and mild vasoconstriction came back. I never really ever got blue/purple knees or lips. There was one weekend where I went through 6-7g and my friend said my lips were a little blue but it cleared up after a small break and food and despite the fact I was up into the following evening on Meph; it never appeared back.

There's no doubt that regular use seems to increase the severity of side effects though.

I'm much the same ColtDan - I still find myself craving it usually after the dissapointment at the other drugs I can find which really just don't hit the spot the same. Either that or halfway through nights where I'm out & only drinking. Not as often now but enough to try get my hands on some once in a while.

Just realised bit off-topic for ADD but still that's my experience.


----------



## MeDieViL

pofacedhoe said:


> basically i used to think meph didn't turn me blue, but then last year new years eve i had a binge to end all binges and after taking about 8 grams over a number of days i started to get the blue skin and thing where skin on my lips and feet were peeling off. enough to put me off since



Yes, it does peel of skin, it even happened on my tongue, the mephedrone problems are definatly autoimunity related and have little to do with vasoconstriction.


----------



## vortex30

Could someone explain the idea behind these side-effects being an auto-immune response? Does this have anything to do with the suspected sensitization of the adrenergic system (was this suspected up or down regulation, I forget now...)? Is it basically the body over-compensating for the presence of a substance that it dislikes, kind of like an allergy? It just confuses me what people mean by 'auto-immune' response and why. What other drugs have shown an auto-immune response profile similar to Mephedrone (I assume there must be some precedence for these claims)?

Thanks.

Oh and for what it is worth, quitting smoking has now 100% cleaned up my lingering red knuckles that came about through/during Mephedrone abuse. I quit Mephedrone in May 2010 and at that time my first and second knuckles on both hands were almost always bright red, then after a month or two off it was just the first knuckle that was red, around New Years things were clearing up a bit further, just my index and middle finger knuckles. Quit smoking 2-3 weeks ago and I noticed any remaining discolouration cleared up almost instantly. So it seems that had I quit Tobacco earlier I probably wouldn't have had quite as prolonged discolouration. After abusing Mephedrone, every stimulant I have tried has had far more severe and discomforting side effects, fewer positive effects, far worse come downs, and far more vasoconstriction than I experienced on the same stimulants before abusing Mephedrone. Even Tobacco it seems was victim to this, though it wasn't until I quit that I realized I had Tobacco to blame for some daily discomforts. Oddly however, MDMA is one exception to this. I've used it 3 times since quitting Mephedrone, with minimal negative side-effects, minimal comedown, etc.


----------



## Lady Codone

@Sackynut:  is this the story you're referring to with the Bromo-Dragonfly?

Since starting a regular meph habit, I've noticed some strange skin issues, though not likely due to vasoconstriction.  

1.--I react to poppy tea as if I'm highly allergic now.  My chest gets flushed with red splotches and my eyes swell like I've been beaten.  Only when I combine low dose poppy tea with mephedrone though.  I also itch like mad on opiates where I NEVER itched before.  I do fine with one or the other, but the combination does not go over well in my body.

2.  My lips, scalp and hands are peeling.  Like, flaking off and peeling.  Mephedrone makes my scalp itch like crazy and produce big dandruff pieces (ew) that I've never encountered before.  

I feel way more vasoconstriction with propylhexedrine and even caffeine than I do with meph, though I can tell it's far from harmless.  I don't dare combine it with even mild stims like caffeine, as this leads to strange chest pains that aren't severe but enough to notice.


----------



## will123

Anyone fancy doing a quick survey about how crap Meph's got since the ban? Im doing this as part of a public health project, will put the results up in June when it's done. Only takes 2 minutes but would be a massive help:

www.surveymonkey.com/mephedronesurvey


----------



## will123

MeDieViL said:


> Yes, it does peel of skin, it even happened on my tongue, the mephedrone problems are definatly autoimunity related and have little to do with vasoconstriction.



I can't think of any autoimmune disease which causes symtpoms such as this, if it were due to an autoimmune drug-associated haemolysis then the symptoms would be things like fatigue, jaundic and having a big spleen. Peripheral cyanosis because of inadequate blood supply is surely much more likely, someone should do a proper study into it.


----------



## sackynut

^ well its completely possible its a toxic/build up effect, as well as just auto immune, thinking its a foreign bad guy.it doesnt have to be disease specific.


----------



## DooMMooD

Auto immune is when it attacks itself, correct?  So your cells attacking themselves is an auto immune issue, not your cells attacking foreign bodies, which is in fact an allergy.  Anything can be an allergn.  Sounds more likely that something in the meph or the meph itself was causing an allergic reaction to you: your lips or w/e got swollen then shrank and there was skin left over.  The rest of that stuff points to just a normal allergic reaction as well.

Source: terrible allergies? got allergy shots for over a decade and spent probably a couple months of my life in an allergists office getting poked and prodded and talking to doctors/nurses.


----------



## adamski10

i've been off the drone for a year now, i was quite a heavy user 10-15grams per session (once however splitting 2 ounces with a mate in 1 night)- 4/5 times a week, dosages up to 4.5 grams-  (you'll say im lying, but i assure you these are conservative estimates)

Noticeable side effects, still vavioconstricted around knees, i rush to music now, or any exciting event (rush includes raise in heart rate and change in breathing rate) become alot more sensation based as a person. Wierd heart prangs, paranoia now and again.

x


----------



## sackynut

^ holy shit im glad youre alive man, thats some LARGE dosing. i can barely fathom killing 2 grams in a session


----------



## adamski10

yeah man, i'd like to see someone i couldn't have out-snorted back in the day x


----------



## pofacedhoe

Lady Codone said:


> 2.  My lips, scalp and hands are peeling.  Like, flaking off and peeling.  Mephedrone makes my scalp itch like crazy and produce big dandruff pieces (ew) that I've never encountered before.
> 
> .




been there, get off the drone, it cant be good when your skin gets so fucked up by a drug its a sign to cut it out


----------



## sackynut

^its just dehydration, meph causes bad cotton mouth, and its important to hydrate. but i highly doubt dry lips are a sign of coming doom. but if it  is please tell me!!!


----------



## pofacedhoe

sackynut said:


> ^its just dehydration, meph causes bad cotton mouth, and its important to hydrate. but i highly doubt dry lips are a sign of coming doom. but if it  is please tell me!!!



i've had dry mouth on a lot of other drugs, i'm talking about the skin on your lips/hands/feet peeling were if you rub it it starts to peel. no other drug has caused this for me and i've had quite a long drug history


----------



## buzzmoonwalker

So what's the verdict: unfortunate 5ht2b antagonism or autoimmunity? If it's just about cardiotoxicity, what about coadministration with beta blockers? Why hasn't this been tried?


----------



## ebola?

beta-blockers are not safe coadministered with strong adrenergic agonists due to the possibility of unopposed escalating alpha-agonism.

ebola


----------



## buzzmoonwalker

*then why not block both?*

What about a non-selective alpha/beta blocker?


----------



## ebola?

This is what will likely be administered in controlled medical settings, but you need the effective knowledge of a registered nurse or more to calibrate the dosages.

ebola


----------



## Archile

Hello,
i am taking mephedrone for 4 months now, about once a week, on average 250mg per one session. can someone please tell me how bad is mephedrone on my heart if i take it on such manner? i will continue this usage for at least 3 more months (till my meph supply ends), will my heart valves be ok after that?
i tryed to search throught the thread, but i found a lot of mixed information. from some posts it seems that it is extremly toxic and will unevitably destroy my heart valves. but in some posts people say like they have taken 2g a day for 1 year, and everything seems find. so what i the current consensus please?
thanks for answer


----------



## ebola?

Honestly, no one yet knows, and even with firm data, you'd still be working with a great deal of uncertainty.

ebola


----------



## jspun

[B^its just dehydration, meph causes bad cotton mouth, and its important to hydrate. but i highly doubt dry lips are a sign of coming doom. but if it is please tell me!!! ][/B]

Recent hydration is a good thind. I would say 1-3 litters in a 24 hour period. Make sure your producing urine! I belive MDxx reduce the release of antiduretic hormone and couse more concentrated urine and volume retention. You can drink yourself to death and get over treated diabetes insipidus symptoms theoretically and electrolytes embalances which are especially bad if you have a heart condition. Plus fuid overload aint good. 

*Ebola*


> This is what will likely be administered in controlled medical settings, but you need the effective knowledge of a registered nurse or more to calibrate the dosages.
> 
> ebola



Maybe low dose coreg: 6.25 mg might help as far as prophylaxis, but if you BP runs low (under 100 sys) you might be asking for problems and then you'll blunt any reflexive tachycardia and f-up your cardiac output: CO= stroke volume x heart rate. Preload and afterlaod are essential to normal cardiac function. Preload is mainatined by adequate hydration. Afterload by a decrease in systemic resistance (vasodialation). Mess with any of those parameters and not knowin what your cardiac rhythm is asking for trouble when titrating meds. Guess you can visit your doc on mephedrone, show the decrease in perpheral resistance, tachycardia, and hypertension, and see what they Rx.8). 

*Achille*


> Hello,
> i am taking mephedrone for 4 months now, about once a week, on average 250mg per one session. can someone please tell me how bad is mephedrone on my heart if i take it on such manner? i will continue this usage for at least 3 more months (till my meph supply ends), will my heart valves be ok after that?
> i tryed to search throught the thread, but i found a lot of mixed information. from some posts it seems that it is extremly toxic and will unevitably destroy my heart valves. but in some posts people say like they have taken 2g a day for 1 year, and everything seems find. so what i the current consensus please?
> thanks for answer



Your playing with fire. I would avoid all stimulants/empathogens, inclusing nicotine, stop drinking, and stay away from mephedrone absouletely. If this does cause an auto immune disorder I'm guessing maybe its rhematic heart disease like- maybe via a different mechanism, but maybe antibodies are attacking heart valves- we don't know what the basis of the neurotoxicity is. I am very serious about this- you might be alright but I see best case ending up in the hospital with your valves replaced, worst case death, worst still- lingering on life support because of anoxic brain damage r/t poor tissue perfusion. I would say your better off on opiates, maybe bezos, but if you used opiates and decided to go IV your at an increased risk of endocarditis. make sure your dentist knows this.

If the liver is being damaged, whether autoimmune or otherwise, Hep C or a history of heavy drinking with elevated liver panel would be an absolute contrindication. You could theoretically treat with high dose prednisone or immusupressive drugs but the cure is worse than the disease and needs to be started prior and tapered (for the corticosteroids).

Non-selective beta blockers or combining lower doses of doxosin and metoprolol before taking might work but there could be untoward, uninteded effects that might negate this strategy. Actvity and maybe applying warm packs to the extrmities might help.

If platlet aggregation is a problem, poor blood flow to the extrmities would put you at risk for developing a DVT (blood clot in an extrmity- usually legs. Taking a small dose of aspirin (81-325 mg might be a good idea.)

This drug is starting to sound worse every second. Avoid redosing- go out with one or two doses and leave the rest at home, or with a friend, or buy it in smaller batches.

Amphetamines have this effect to some degree. 

Watch for temperature spikes. Treat with Ice packs to the arm pits and back of the head if the temp gets above 100 F or 38 celsius.

Don't use:

If you have any type of heart disease. 

If you have impaired liver or kidney problems

Diabetes Melitus

Seizure disorders

On a drug that increases the amount of serotonin or an MAOI in the last 2 weeks. Dont take this with ayahuasca.

Be aware that long term problems associated from using this drug might not appear until latter.

The degree of peripheral vasocontriction is worrisome. Quiting smoking isn't enough. Dancing might help and pumping and releasing fists, moving around arms. Plus heating pads. Iwould check my feet after a drone session as cuts/ blisters might put you at risk for infection. 

If its an IGE mediated allergic reaction- benadryl might help, but that might have some untowrd effect.

Autoimmune disease are scarry- sometimes they can become permanent or semi permanent: think lupus, myasthenias Gravis, or Guillane-Barre. 

I good way to check circulation is to push on your nail. If it takes more than 3 seconds for the color to come back then your circulation is impaired. But blusih limbs is a late respose.

Ask yourself- is the high worth a potential amputation, or permanent oragan damage?

Stick to coke, meth, or MDXX. They sound alot safer- until more is known about this drug. This is the wrong place probably to ask this but is the high superior to E or coke? Do you feel loved up- how are the empath/entactogenic properties? How does it compare?

I wouldn't use this until more is known. However, with the amount of people using the drug, the amount of side effects reported might be small relative to the number of people doing this. Unfortunately this is hard to quatify without carefully controlled studies.

Any dizziness, fainting, sortness of breath, chest pain, skipped beats, racing heart, spiking a temp, or feelings of impending doom- seek medical attention immediately, especially if illict batches are gonna be on the market- but the chinese have a track record of producing toxic products, in their grey area labs, who knows what the level of quality control is.

Its sad when people think a drug is ok just because its legal. Sometimes the illegal drugs are safer because they are time tested.


----------



## jspun

Disregard some of my earlier advice: It sounds like blusih hands, racing heart, and occasional palpitation are part of the symptoms of use, especially late in the session. Also read about comparisons to E:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=497376&highlight=mephedrone+subjective+effects&page=2

My question would be, and its slightly off topic but it might shed light on its toxicity- is there cross tolerance between MDMA and mephedrone. How about with MDA?

But the rest of my advice stands and it is based on non evidence based wide ass guessing from what I'm reading on BL.


----------



## sackynut

@jspun. in my subjective experience i prefer the high of mephedrone to that of MDMA or coke, or methamp or any amp for that matter. however EVERYONE is different, and there are plenty who will disagree with me. let me change that a little: i would prefer the MDMA high, if i could get high off it every day, not worry about health problems, and not lose too much to tolerance. and while mephedrone is obviously NOT safe, and one shouldnt do it every day, i would probably bet that daily chronic use of 4mmc is much safer than daily chronic use of MDMA for weeks at a time. the high it produced compared to its negative consequences i think makes it very attractive. that and the price....compared to street coke i would go with mephedrone any day. 

the high seems to have a much higher serotonergic quality than other stims, but to be honest i think a lot of the high revolves around DA and NE, and that nice little SE boost just does the trick and makes it perfect. the meph high can be achieved many days in a row, something thats very hard to do with pure MDMA in my opinion  (and yes ive done it.) which leads me to believe it awesome effects arent purely serotonergic. because even the "lovey dovey" feeling can be achieved a few days in a row...however it drops off after about 3 days and youre left purely with stimulation. 

there is a cross tolerance with MDMA and MDA, but it doesnt seem as large as one would expect. plus how often, and long youve been doing mephedrone plays a roll. the longer you expend that serotonin the lesser effect of other enactogens will be. 

jspun every paragraph of your posts makes me want to stop 4mmc completely more and more. kind of off topic, but do you know anything about the signs of kidney failure or kidney problems? i highly doubt i have any, but like 5 years back  i had some elevated chemical levels on a blood test that showed possible future kidney issues. 

this stuff also DESTROYS the inside of your nose. if i didnt stop when i did, i might have a collapse nose, or deviated septum right now. 

thanks man your posts are extremely informative. i live in sd too


----------



## jspun

*Sackynut*


> jspun every paragraph of your posts makes me want to stop 4mmc completely more and more. kind of off topic, but do you know anything about the signs of kidney failure or kidney problems? i highly doubt i have any, but like 5 years back i had some elevated chemical levels on a blood test that showed possible future kidney issues



Their are two major test- BUN (Blood Urea Nitrogen) and Creatinine are the 2 ajor lab values- When creatine starts creepin up above 1.3 it becomes indicative of acute renal failure. People on Dialysis typically have creatinines that are like 3.5 range. GFR (Glomerular Filtration rate is another.) Signs of kidney disease is conectrated urine depite adequate hydration (oliguria), sometimes flank pain. The follow up diagnostic test is usally a renal ultrasound. Hope that helps as nephrology/dialysis mursing isn't my strong suite. Swelling (edema) could be another symptom.

If your diabetic tight glucose control is essential as is control of high blood pressure. Easy on the salt. Avoid alcohol. Drink lots of fluids unless you are on a fluid restricted diet.

Hope this helps and hope your kidneys turn out to be ok. I go for another physical ASAP- you could have been dehydrated or partying to hard that day or days or weeks before- anyway hopes this helps and your kidneys are ok.


----------



## Lady Codone

As a previous user who averaged 2 grams per week for 4 months, I don't think meph is necessarily "more toxic" than MDMA or any other serotonin-boosting empathogen.  At least it doesn't feel like it to me.  But feelings/opinions mean little when it comes to stuff like this.  We need some major scientific studies ASAP, but you know how that goes.  Ban first, ask questions 20 years later (see MDMA).


----------



## poopstation

sackynut said:


> there is a cross tolerance with MDMA and MDA, but it doesnt seem as large as one would expect. plus how often, and long youve been doing mephedrone plays a roll. the longer you expend that serotonin the lesser effect of other enactogens will be.



that can't be true because MDMA and MDA don't have a cross tolerance between each other.  technically they do but very, very little - negligible.  mda releases a good bit of DA and 5HT via 5HT2a whereas mdma is much more selective as it does not release nearly as much DA and is primarily active with 5HT3.  yes they are active with a number of different 5HT receptors but generally speaking mda focuses on DA/5HT2a and mdma focuses on 5HT3.  the negligible cross tolerance will be from the 7-10% of mdma that is demethylated to mda by your body and the small amount of shared DA/5HT activity.  for all intents and purposes they are not cross tolerant.

does anyone have the ki values for 4mmc?  that would explain which mdxx that 4mmc shares cross tolerance with.  i think that any cross tolerance with 4mmc wouldn't be all that much, not as much as stronger 5HT releasers anyway


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## vecktor

poopstation said:


> that can't be true because MDMA and MDA don't have a cross tolerance between each other.  technically they do but very, very little - negligible.  mda releases a good bit of DA and 5HT via 5HT2a whereas mdma is much more selective as it does not release nearly as much DA and is primarily active with 5HT3.  yes they are active with a number of different 5HT receptors but generally speaking mda focuses on DA/5HT2a and mdma focuses on 5HT3.  the negligible cross tolerance will be from the 7-10% of mdma that is demethylated to mda by your body and the small amount of shared DA/5HT activity.  for all intents and purposes they are not cross tolerant.




where did you get the information that MDMA is selective for 5-ht3 receptors? I think you are completely wrong, especially given the propensity of 5-HT3 agonists to cause spectacular emesis.

MDMA releases serotonin norepinephrine and dopamine and this has nothing to do with the limited 5ht2a agonism it has (n-alkyl amphetamines have much lower 5ht2a activity than the corresponding primary amine). Instead it is mediated through its effects on the phosphorylation and reversal of the monoamine transporters (MAT) SERT NERT and DAT which leads to monoamines being dumped into the synapse as well as the vesicular transporter VMAT which results in monoamines being dumped into the cytosol.

finally despite the internet lore that is derived from Shulgins statements there is also cross tolerance between MDA and MDMA, there is peer reviewed literature supporting this, this makes sense, given MDA also effects the MAT system, it is probably true though that the R enantiomer of MDA is not cross tolerant with S MDMA. (It is thought that the psychedelic activity of MDA resides mostly in the R enantiomer and the entactogenic activity of MDMA is primarily found in the S enantiomer) 

I suggest you go read up on the pharmacology of MDA and MDMA wikipedia is a good start.


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## poopstation

vektor i enjoy your posts however i will most certainly disagree with you sir.

mdma and mda share very little cross tolerance, as i said it is negligible.  i say this from years of personal experience.  i have a massive tolerance to mdma but very low tolerance to mda due to how much i use one more than the other.  i've done blind studies with friends that led me to believe a cross tolerance is not shared.  IE: they will be given mdma and over time a large tolerance is acquired.  give them mda and this tolerance is not present.  

one friend of mine in particular (not part of the blind study mentioned above, this is by his own doing) took mdma multiple days a week for several weeks to the point of needing very large amounts of mdma (upwards of 600mg per session) even for mydriasis, yes i realize how ridiculous this is.  then he began to take mda at 100mg and he very obviously had no tolerance to mda.  he had mydriasis and reported strong physical euphoria, mild OEV's and CEV's, he had a typical mda experience at a typical dosage for someone who no tolerance.

i'm telling you from lots of personal experience, any cross tolerance between mdma and mda is very very slim.


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## vecktor

^ Interesting, I speak from back in the day when high quality MDA was around (when a certain former Soviet pharma company was making MDA) and many people reported cross tolerance with 'ecstacy' whatever that contained, though  I would have though at the time most ecstacy was mostly MDMA. People described ecstacy (MDMA) effects after MDA as being reduced, though bizarrely maybe this does happen the other way around.


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## Torabora

you are sure that ecstacy was mainly mdma? what I heared is that most pills of those days were always a good mixture out of mdma and mda


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## sackynut

^most pills are NOT a mix of MDMA and MDA. most hardly even have more than 50mg of MDMA in them
edit: but back in the day they had much more MDMA, and MDA in pills was much more prevalent. 
MDA and MDMA do infact share cross tolerance. they both work similarly but i believe MDA has higher affinity for serotonin. PLus, MDA seems to also directly (rather than indirectly through release ala MDMA) affect the 5-ht2a receptors as well. thus giving it its pronounced psychedelic properties. 

so if you subjectively found no cross tolerance, its most likely because A. chill out on taking so much MDXX and B. youre still getting high from those psychedlic receptors from MDA, giving you a nice high regardless of MDMA use. 

however their main enactogenic and stimulating qualities definitely share cross tolerance.


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## Archile

jspun: 
thanks alot for the informations, but are you serious with that: "you might be alright but I see best case ending up in the hospital with your valves replaced"? i dont know, but i dont think i have used that much mephedrone in my life. i have used about 4g during the last 4 months (200-300mg per session). that is almost nothing compared to some other people on this forums. do you really think that such "tiny" amount can destroy my heart valves permanently?
second thing is that i will be thankfull if you explain me some facts about the toxicity:
- about the mechanism mephedrone is damaging heart valves - i have thought that it should be something on the same basis as the Fen-phen toxicity, but you are talking about some auto-immune type of damage, is this the same thing?
- if not, than throught what mechanism is the mephedrone causing the auto-immune damage you are talking about? and what are the clues supporting this theory?
- if it were true, than will the auto-immune disease show on blood-tests? and will the damage to the heart show on ECG? is there some type of examination that will definitly show if i have done some damage to me or not?
thanks a lot
oh, and one more thing - i have searched throught these forums but they are too large to read everything - i would be interested if there are some posts here from someone who has used mephedrone heavily for a long time and then (after he stopped), he went to some detailed medical examination? i think this could provide very usefull informations about the potential type and seriousness of the mephedrone toxicity. 

to answer your question now -  i definitely prefer the high from MDMA to that from mephedrone. the euphoria is better and the empathy is much stronger on MDMA than on mephedrone. however, MDMA is unavailible to me now, so i use the mephedrone, which when used orally (250 mg) gives me euphoria comparable to lower doses of MDMA (like 150mg maybe) with less empathy and much more mental stimulation (race of thoughts). i am also more talkative after mephedrone (which is perfect for discussions with friends), but the physical stimulation is much weaker (i have absolutely no urge to dance, etc). music is also better on MDMA than on mephedrone.
to the coke, honestly i dont thing i have ever had a good quality coke, because it was always quite weak (no rushes of euphoria like on MDMA or mephedrone, etc.). so i definitely prefer a good line of mephedrone (like 125 mg) than a line of coke. 

at the end of your post you have writen to search medical attention if:  "Any dizziness, fainting, sortness of breath, chest pain, skipped beats, racing heart, spiking a temp, or feelings of impending doom" is felt. what do these conditions mean? i have had this one time after my third (125mg) line of mephedrone, when i combined it with about 4 red-bulls. 10 min after the third line i started to feel very weak and dizzy, i started to see black and with every breath i felt weaker and weaker. i started to puke after that because of the extreme dizzynes probably. after that i measured my heart rate and it was about 130, which i belived is not so bad, so i let it be and went home.


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## pofacedhoe

vecktor said:


> People described ecstacy (MDMA) effects after MDA as being reduced, though bizarrely maybe this does happen the other way around.



this makes sense to me as MDA is a potent halucinogen (besides its releasing properties) where as MDMA relies mostly on catecholamine release.


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## SirTophamHat

I know this is a pretty huge bump but I have a relevant piece of information to add.

Now that meph is pretty much illegal everywhere (since Oct 2011 in the states at least) analogues are coming out.  I myself have a sample of M1M/B2, rumored to be very close to mephedrone both in chemical structure & effects.  I have no experience with authentic mephedrone for what it is worth.

After doing a little more than half a gram in a session last week, I noticed the skin on the inside of my mouth peeling (gums, lips) over the next day.  I thought at the time that maybe I had just had something to eat that was too hot and didn't remember it.  However for the areas that were peeling this didn't make sense, as there was no affected area on the roof of my mouth at all.

It is concerning to read that other users have had this reaction as well.  I did take most of my dose orally in water which may have contributed.  Either way, be careful with this stuff.  I didn't take much at all and I still had my skin falling off.


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## ebola?

> I myself have a sample of M1M/B2, rumored to be very close to mephedrone both in chemical structure & effects.



What compounds are these?

ebola


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## MeDieViL

I hypothised before meph doesnt cause vasoconstriction as hospitals didnt find any issue; its probably some form of drug induced lupus witch meph and co cause


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## SirTophamHat

I'm sorry I didn't get back to you earlier ebola,

the compound is undisclosed so far for fear of being scheduled.  The website it came from says it is a "Propylhexedrine analogue (3,4-methdioxy variant)"

Other reports I've read online of it relate its effects very closely to mephedrone.

MeDieViL: drug induced lupus sounds fantastic!


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## ebola?

It's pretty likely that they're lying about the contents of their product; no one knows what they're selling.

ebola


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## atrollappears

I wouldn't touch a propylhexedrine analogue with a 10 foot snorting tube >.>


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## ebola?

Can someone with more chemistry knowledge than I comment on whether sticking a 3,4-methylene dioxy on a cyclohexane group would even make sense?  Given the geometry of cyclohexane, where would the MD even stick out toward?  If the drop in potency is analogous to methamp----->mdma, I don't see this compound being viable anyway.

ebola


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## dimensiontripping

Mephedrone caused long-term muscular contractions in my lower abdominal area, thighs, lower back, knees, and hips that has been going on for 7 months.  I still cannot have a normal sex life, cannot ride a bike anymore, and cannot sit down without having pain.  

This shit fucked me over more than any other drug I have done.  I have done many drugs, but nothing that has left me in so much physical and emotional pain.  Cathinones are not only over-rated but has been the one class of drugs that has caused me the most problems.  I got sucked in like the rest of you but now I have to see intense acupuncture + trigger point physical therapy every week that is not only expensive ($120 per session) but is going to take up to a year to complete recover from (=over $5000 in physical therapy this year).  My pain is getting better, there is no doubt it is completely muscular.  Cheap drugs online worth it? NO FUCKING WAY.  WATCH YOUR STEP


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## Velvet cacoon

simstimstar said:


> UPDATE - Also, of the two MDPV feels much safer on the body, but the euphoria is only a fraction of that from 4-mmc, and for some the anxiety is unbearable.  I have seen people take one hit smoking MDPV and get up and leave the house because of panic attack.


 
So, are you saying that mdpv is even more euphoric than meph? I've never taken mdpv, but it's hard to believe.

About the 'drone damage, most of the things i'm hearing here sound pretty scary. A very sporadic usage (like 8-10 times per year with 400mg consumed per session at most) could cause any of the health problems above listed?


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## dimensiontripping

Velvet cacoon said:


> So, are you saying that mdpv is even more euphoric than meph? I've never taken mdpv, but it's hard to believe.
> 
> About the 'drone damage, most of the things i'm hearing here sound pretty scary. A very sporadic usage (like 8-10 times per year with 400mg consumed per session at most) could cause any of the health problems above listed?


 
I think so.  I only used mephedrone like 8 times starting at 350mg a session and ending a pretty crazy 1000mg a session and ended up with long-term muscular damage. See my post above.  I think people who want to do drugs are going to filter most of the people like me out and see the crazy ass users who got away with it all almost and be like ya, mephedrone is fine or just as safe as MDMA.  It is clearly not.


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## Velvet cacoon

dimensiontripping said:


> I think so.  I only used mephedrone like 8 times starting at 350mg a session and ending a pretty crazy 1000mg a session and ended up with long-term muscular damage. See my post above.  I think people who want to do drugs are going to filter most of the people like me out and see the crazy ass users who got away with it all almost and be like ya, mephedrone is fine or just as safe as MDMA.  It is clearly not.


 
And why do you relate those damages with the mephedrone consumptions? Do you have any proof?

It's difficult to believe that isolated and responsible uses (although 1gr a session isn't) lead to permanent damages. If so, that means thousands of people with health problems now or in the future. I don't see that, just in the case of abuses. 

Same things have been said about MDMA and other more famous compounds and the reality has yield quite different results.


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## dimensiontripping

Velvet cacoon said:


> And why do you relate those damages with the mephedrone consumptions? Do you have any proof?
> 
> It's difficult to believe that isolated and responsible uses (although 1gr a session isn't) lead to permanent damages. If so, that means thousands of people with health problems now or in the future. I don't see that, just in the case of abuses.
> 
> Same things have been said about MDMA and other more famous compounds and the reality has yield quite different results.



The only proof I have is that I did 1g of mephedrone in a session and 2 days later, when I had sex it was extremely painful post -orgasm.  I spent months trying to figure the issue out after being misdiagnosed with prostate infection, chrons disease, and was finally diagnosed with myofascial pain in my pelvic floor and lower abdomen.  I was completely healthy young adult male.  There is no reason this would have happened normally.  it has been 7 months and I have abstained from using mephedrone since then and continue to have this issue but is slowly going away.  You want a medical record? I dont have that.  do doctors understand mephedrone? no.  Do I have personal evidence that this is caused by mephedrone, hell ya.  I know you are trying to filter people who are complaining and two issues may be unrelated but I know this are completely related.  Mephedrone caused my long-term muscular damage.  Simple as that.


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## Velvet cacoon

dimensiontripping said:


> The only proof I have is that I did 1g of mephedrone in a session and 2 days later, when I had sex it was extremely painful post -orgasm.  I spent months trying to figure the issue out after being misdiagnosed with prostate infection, chrons disease, and was finally diagnosed with myofascial pain in my pelvic floor and lower abdomen.  I was completely healthy young adult male.  There is no reason this would have happened normally.  it has been 7 months and I have abstained from using mephedrone since then and continue to have this issue but is slowly going away.  You want a medical record? I dont have that.  do doctors understand mephedrone? no.  Do I have personal evidence that this is caused by mephedrone, hell ya.  I know you are trying to filter people who are complaining and two issues may be unrelated but I know this are completely related.  Mephedrone caused my long-term muscular damage.  Simple as that.


 
I'm sorry for you. I've heard similar cases with MDMA as well, not muscular problems but liver failures with a relatively low abuse. I guess it's not common but can happen.

Of course your experience is useful, but we can't say mephedrone is gonna hurt everybody even with responsible comsumptions. I mean, I know hundreds of people who did this drug in the past and i haven't noticed any problems with them.

Did you notice any problems with your experiences with less than 0.5-0.6gr?


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## dimensiontripping

Velvet cacoon said:


> I'm sorry for you. I've heard similar cases with MDMA as well, not muscular problems but liver failures with a relatively low abuse. I guess it's not common but can happen.
> 
> Of course your experience is useful, but we can't say mephedrone is gonna hurt everybody even with responsible comsumptions. I mean, I know hundreds of people who did this drug in the past and i haven't noticed any problems with them.
> 
> Did you notice any problems with your experiences with less than 0.5-0.6gr?



no, it was once i breached my .5-.6 limit that this occurred and I only did this once.  I know I am a special case and cannot speak for everyone at all but i think it is important to bring even unusual side effects to the main discussion.  I have no access to it nor do any of my friends and I am grateful for this.  The original argument amongst my circle of friends was that since mdma was so impure or actually a mix of RC products resold at super high inflation, that taking known pure RC's was safer than consuming "molly" or "beans"  This actually seemed to resonate as being true for a bit, but upon my negative reaction (which I must say none of atleast 20 people I know who took same batch experienced) everyone stopped.  I would love to take pure mdma as that was never a problem before there was loss of access.  But I now doubt all new amphetamine/cathinone RC's for me personally as it seems my body chemistry and them do not work well together.


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## SirTophamHat

ebola? said:


> It's pretty likely that they're lying about the contents of their product; no one knows what they're selling.
> 
> ebola


 
My best guess is that it's actually mephedrone.  That's the best thing it could likely be, too.  Sad...


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## dimensiontripping

SirTophamHat said:


> My best guess is that it's actually mephedrone.  That's the best thing it could likely be, too.  Sad...



B2 was sent out for analysis from one vendor and verified as 4-mmc.  This was a few months ago.


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## pofacedhoe

dimensiontripping said:


> no, it was once i breached my .5-.6 limit that this occurred and I only did this once.  I know I am a special case and cannot speak for everyone at all but i think it is important to bring even unusual side effects to the main discussion.  I have no access to it nor do any of my friends and I am grateful for this.  The original argument amongst my circle of friends was that since mdma was so impure or actually a mix of RC products resold at super high inflation, that taking known pure RC's was safer than consuming "molly" or "beans"  This actually seemed to resonate as being true for a bit, but upon my negative reaction (which I must say none of atleast 20 people I know who took same batch experienced) everyone stopped.  I would love to take pure mdma as that was never a problem before there was loss of access.  But I now doubt all new amphetamine/cathinone RC's for me personally as it seems my body chemistry and them do not work well together.



the whole point of this thread is to highlight the negative reactions people have had from mephedrone. its purpose is being served in an insightful manner


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## atrollappears

ebola? said:


> Can someone with more chemistry knowledge than I comment on whether sticking a 3,4-methylene dioxy on a cyclohexane group would even make sense?  Given the geometry of cyclohexane, where would the MD even stick out toward?  If the drop in potency is analogous to methamp----->mdma, I don't see this compound being viable anyway.
> 
> ebola



I heard speculation that the methylenedioxy ring would quickly be cleaved, yielding certain toxic byproducts I don't recall. Also, I don't think the SARs for benzene containing compounds likely apply to cyclohexanes...


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## simstimstar

*The many after affects of mephedrone*

I haven't chimed in on this thread in awhile so I think it's time for an update... In 2010 I bought close to a kilo of mephedrone.  I did 1-3 grams a day for about 2 months.  After the meph got confiscated by the police I got into smoking and IV-ing mdpv.

I had chronic pain previously but now it is much worse.  My first 2 clinical diagnoses after meph were fibromyalgia and high blood pressure.  I am 27 years old.

Recently I had a yearly blood test and my TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) was below normal, indicating hyperthyroid.  This level was fine at the end of 2010 though.

I am now taking 120mg/day of cymbalta (duloxetine, the maximum), blood pressure meds, tramadol, several grams of neurontin a day, several grams of kratom a day, and still in so much pain at the end of the day in my knees and back that i just want to curl up and die.

Back when I was doing so much meph I had skin peeling on feet, hands, mouth, purple legs/knees, etc.

It was just about the most euphoric drug I have ever done (and I have tried a LOT of drugs in my lifetime).  Compared to the meph, MDPV was complete crap, but it is extremely addictive even though the high isn't very good.  And the amphetamine psychosis from the mdpv was terrible.  Even from meph at 1-3 grams a day everyday for nearly 2 months.

Just an update.  Do I wish I had never tried meph?  Absolutely not.  I do wish I had the will power to have been responsible with it though.  No doubt in my mind that is very toxic stuff.  I feel like I have vascular damage (vericose veins in legs) and also nerve damage (chronic widespread pain).  You gotta pay to play though.  The harder you play, the more you pay.

I have since given up stims except for the occasional adderal when visiting a close friend.  I haven't touched a needle since August 2010.

Cheers,
-SimStim


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## SirTophamHat

dimensiontripping said:


> B2 was sent out for analysis from one vendor and verified as 4-mmc.  This was a few months ago.



Okay, word.  I must have missed that.  Thanks for clearing that up.


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## dimensiontripping

simstimstar said:


> I haven't chimed in on this thread in awhile so I think it's time for an update... In 2010 I bought close to a kilo of mephedrone.  I did 1-3 grams a day for about 2 months.  After the meph got confiscated by the police I got into smoking and IV-ing mdpv.
> 
> I had chronic pain previously but now it is much worse.  My first 2 clinical diagnoses after meph were fibromyalgia and high blood pressure.  I am 27 years old.
> 
> Recently I had a yearly blood test and my TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone) was below normal, indicating hyperthyroid.  This level was fine at the end of 2010 though.
> 
> I am now taking 120mg/day of cymbalta (duloxetine, the maximum), blood pressure meds, tramadol, several grams of neurontin a day, several grams of kratom a day, and still in so much pain at the end of the day in my knees and back that i just want to curl up and die.
> 
> Back when I was doing so much meph I had skin peeling on feet, hands, mouth, purple legs/knees, etc.
> 
> It was just about the most euphoric drug I have ever done (and I have tried a LOT of drugs in my lifetime).  Compared to the meph, MDPV was complete crap, but it is extremely addictive even though the high isn't very good.  And the amphetamine psychosis from the mdpv was terrible.  Even from meph at 1-3 grams a day everyday for nearly 2 months.
> 
> Just an update.  Do I wish I had never tried meph?  Absolutely not.  I do wish I had the will power to have been responsible with it though.  No doubt in my mind that is very toxic stuff.  I feel like I have vascular damage (vericose veins in legs) and also nerve damage (chronic widespread pain).  You gotta pay to play though.  The harder you play, the more you pay.
> 
> I have since given up stims except for the occasional adderal when visiting a close friend.  I haven't touched a needle since August 2010.
> 
> Cheers,
> -SimStim



did you tell your doctor about your abuse? where is your pain located? I have strong abdominal, genital, lower back pain after taking mephedrone in august 2011.  I was diagnosed with so many things but I did not tell my doctors that I was taking cathinones/amphetamines (I was taking methylone, adderall as well but not in combination with mephedrone).  Eventually, i have gone to see a myofascial therapist and unlike you, I dont think I have nerve damage, but have seriously fucked up my muscles.  if you could please discuss your pain and the type of pain you have, I am very interested in bringing nerve/muscular damage from cathinones to the table here on bluelight.  I think it seriously needs to be discussed and be an integral part of our analysis of its side effects and dangers


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