# Opinions Needed - Splitting Opiate Discussion Off From OD Into A New Forum



## sixpartseven

The title says it all. How would you feel about taking the opiate discussion out of OD and giving it it's own forum?

The idea has been around since the birth of Other Drugs. There have been many arguments for and against it, two of the most popular being...

*For:* There is plenty of opiate discussion to warrant its own forum. It would make sense, just like cannabis and ecstasy have their own forums, opiates should, too.

*Against:* Opiate discussion makes up the majority of OD's subject matter, so removing it from OD would strip away a lot of its traffic.

There are many points and counter-points, so we want to hear them from you, the members who would be the most affected by such a change.

Would you like to see opiates have their own forum? Do you like OD the way it is? Do you not care?

After you vote on the poll, we would appreciate it if you could explain why you voted the way you did, so we can better understand your decision and use this knowledge to make the right decision about what to do with the forum.


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## Cosmic Charlie

I feel like opiates generate enough discussion to warrant there own forum 

It would make it much easier for people coming here with questions relating to them 

And we can have our own social thread for junkies


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## theotherside

Considering the amount of opiate related threads started everyday my answer would be yes split them up.


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## brutus

I say split opiate discussion into two separate forums.


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## sixpartseven

^ You mean split OD into two separate forums, or create an Opiate Discussion forum and split it in two?


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## Too many doses

I feel that while there is enough opiate discussion to warrant it's own forum but OD would be a shell of it's self in a sort without it. It's the majority of traffic so if it was split OD should be renamed to list the drugs that are discussed there. I'd be down to see a split but only if certain criteria were met to ensure OD remains a good resource and frequently visited.


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## sixpartseven

Playing Devil's Advocate: Is it (opiates) really the majority of discussion in OD? A little while ago, I counted 20 non-opiate threads on the front page. There are only 40 threads listed per page. So that's an even 50/50 split, which could be the perfect justification for an opiate discussion forum. The two forums - OD and OD (lol) - would theoretically be equal in traffic.


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## bingey

no please i cant cope with change


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## phr

The main issue, imo, is what will happen to the non-opiate forum, specifically with post/thread quality. It's no secret that a lot of us are only interested in opiates. And it could be argued that the most knowledgeable users are those just interested in opiates. So what happens to the non-opiate forum all those people stop browsing? Of course you could argue that those people already only click on opiate threads to begin with... But personally I don't buy that. Non-opiate threads are bound to catch your eye -with their title, # of replies, # of views, the thread starter, or the last person to reply. So you may come here for opiates, but chances are you'll drop by a few other threads. And by doing that you'll either learn something, or hopefully you'll post and help someone else out.

Speaking just for myself, I know I wouldn't have learned as much as I did about non-opiates if there was dedicated opiate forum here.



Also, the issue of how that forum will be staffed comes up, but that will be discussed out of public if this goes through.


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## Captain.Heroin

*Opiate Discussion V Other Drugs*

Phrozen brings up a really good point.

I think OD should stay the same (the way it is now), because I would spend a lot of time in Opiate Discussion and not so much time in OD (plus, both acronyms would be OD - wouldn't that get mind-numbingly confusing?).  Plus, 6/7 brings up a good point - it seems that OD (as it stands now) is about 50/50 (half of the topics are about opiates, the other half are a variety of other drugs).  

I have a lot of information/knowledge to offer, and feel as if a lot of it wouldn't get across anymore as I would probably be in Opiate Discussion most of the time (you all know how much I post in the Suboxone Mega Thread).  

Even though I would still visit both (if they were split up), a vast majority of users here would congregate to Opiate Discussion and OD would be left with a lot of crickets chirping in the wind.  

Plus, most of the aged opiate users /ex-users would flock to Opiate Discussion, and they make up the majority of the informed, well written responses to most of the topics (regarding opiates or otherwise) here in Other Drugs.  

I think splitting up OD would result in a lot of people getting frustrated their thread (question) isn't getting replies (answers) which will lead to a lot of repeat threads, etc.  

For example, often people have questions about combos involving an opiate + a benzo, or an opiate + a stimulant, or an opiate + a psychedelic.  Most often, these questions belong in OD (if it's mostly about psychedelics, then PD or, unless it's extremely basic question then it belongs in BDD) but if we created "Opiate Discussion" separate from OD, then what will happen is people are going to think "hm...my thread belongs in 3 different forums..." when they're trying to ask if it's safe to speedball on acid (which is a very enjoyable experience I might add ).

Long story short, we could split it up, I just don't think it's necessary.  OD is for intermediary discussion, and if we created Opiate Discussion, I feel as if it wouldn't be as intermediary as OD has been in the past (there's a lot of awesome threads here - I've learned a lot from the contributing users such as 6/7*, djsim**, and many other posters) - and this might lead to a lot of people not learning as much as they have in the past.  

For what it's worth, it is a well thought out idea.  It definitely has merit, but I just think that the way things are now is better than splitting it up.

If anyone needs any clarification about what I'm trying to talk about just let me know.  I'm actually really interested to see how this goes.  

* 6/7 wrote the amazing Sublingual + Alcohol method for Suboxone - this increases bio-availability and is a miracle for anyone trying to taper
** djsim wrote a little on benzodiazepine tolerance and how the GABA subunits alpha and gamma dissociate with long-term benzo abuse - really fascinating information regarding pharmacodynamic theory which I believe to be true 

I brought up these two ideas because this is the stuff I love to learn about when I visit blue light, and I feel that OD made it possible to learn about these things.  Maybe I'm wrong and I would've eventually discovered their posts somewhere else anyways (as 6/7's would have gone into Opiate Discussion and djsim's would have stayed into Other Drugs), but I just feel if we keep it all together in Other Drugs it'll all be easier to find.


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## Fuzati

Split it up! Too bad for the people who want to speedball on acid :D


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## Too many doses

sixpartseven said:


> Playing Devil's Advocate: Is it (opiates) really the majority of discussion in OD? A little while ago, I counted 20 non-opiate threads on the front page. There are only 40 threads listed per page. So that's an even 50/50 split, which could be the perfect justification for an opiate discussion forum. The two forums - OD and OD (lol) - would theoretically be equal in traffic.



Thats one sample though.  And Phrozen echoed my views on how would OD be effected after the change, and how could we minimize a decline in quality and traffic.

Thanks for saying it better than me Phrozen .


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## shake

if it does get split i got a feeling you will still have alot of opiate post in the wrong section. imo a better split would be the 2 ends of the spectrum, an upper and downers sub-forum split. perhaps that would better place ppls post

yea so i should have voted for split it another way


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## Shambles

^ An uppers/downers split would probably be more my choice than an opiate/non-opiate split if any split is splut but am persuadable 

The drugs discussed in OD are frequently combined in varying ways - without even bringing psyches into it - so there would be a fair amount of "which side of the line does this fall?" quandaries too, I'd think. OD is a one stop shop.


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## Rhisper

I was going to say split it up, because opiates seem to be so popular, but phrozen and CH convinced me. I think having some coherency is of use, as this permits OD to benefit from the cross-knowledge of different people with different DOC's. Leave bluelight the way it is; if it works, it works.


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## vonchampz

I like that this is finally getting out into the open. I have often thought of this when browsing OD and seeing tons and tons of opiate threads. I think there are pros and cons as stated above, one major one being at least half of the posts here are about opiates. However, I am inclined to agree with CH, phrozen and others in that it wouldn't get enough traffic from people with good, correct knowledge of other drugs besides opiates. 

I think a lot of people are like me who are interested in opiates to a great degree but also to drugs besides them and theoretically i could see myself saying "oh yeah, I would browse opiates, but jump back to OD" but in reality I think it might be different. Just because forums are only 2 clicks away does mean people will go there. As an example, I have gone into OD and then thought "oh I need to go over to this forum later" but got involved in something and never really made it.

I'm voting for keeping it the same..


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## johanneschimpo

I've voiced my opinion on this before, so I won't bother to type out a long post. In short, my answer is a resounding "no."


It appears the large majority of the staff members that have posted in here are against a split as well. I don't think its a coincidence that we all feel the same way about it. 




*
No opiate secession from OD.*


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## whiskeyplease

How about a Narcotics forum? Group the opiates with coke and anything else that fits. Leave the plant fertilizers and methamphetamine to "other drugs". I can't believe they have co-exited for so long. 

But...if not this, then yes. An opiate forum please .


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## HighonLife

i voted no cuz it isnt like OD would be as jumbled and packed as it is now if people would just stop posting the same stupid threads every day.

i used to think opiates should have a sperate subforum but i have grown to enjoy the OD community the way it is

also OD is the best sub forum on this board, why fuck with it


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## sixpartseven

Opiatesrarely said:


> Upper/downer this sounds dangerous as those categories can be ambiguous and vague.
> 
> I agree with a lot of the points for both sides, and I am kind of undecided, but I voted to split it up.
> 
> Although... i do want to say to the Mods, please don't make the decision solely based on quantity of votes as the votes are  voted first, then the posts are read... I still stick with my vote choice, but there are some things that need to be resolved.



The vote will have no direct influence on the decision. It is here merely to gauge how the members feel about the issue so we know if we should even be considering it.


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## Shambles

whiskeyplease said:


> How about a Narcotics forum? Group the opiates with coke and anything else that fits.



Coke isn't a narcotic so wouldn't fit


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## RedLeader

Shambles said:


> ^ An uppers/downers split would probably be more my choice than an opiate/non-opiate split if any split is splut but am persuadable



I tend to agree with this.  But then again where would the speedballers go?


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## whiskeyplease

Sorry, you're right. That's drug law here in the U.S. where they are grouped together under the title of "narcotic drugs. Coke does have pain killing attributes. It just doesn't affect the opiate receptors of the brain. Thanks for heads up, 'tis why I'm here .


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## drug struggler

what would be the best drug combo to help me cope with the stress of having to decide if an opiate/OD split would be in OD's best interest?

What drugs would help me decide the best?!


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## Captain.Heroin

Opiatesrarely said:


> Although... i do want to say to the Mods, please don't make the decision solely based on quantity of votes as the votes are  voted first, then the posts are read... I still stick with my vote choice, but there are some things that need to be resolved.



I agree - the discussion of this idea will be more valuable than the poll results by far.  

However, that's why this thread is here, so people can discuss it before any changes/revisions are made.  

I'm glad to hear that people understand where I'm coming from - sounds like I got my point across pretty well.


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## RedLeader

Whoever gets to split up the archive, if the change is made, have fun!!!!!!


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## Captain.Heroin

RedLeader said:


> I tend to agree with this.  But then again where would the speedballers go?



Good point...lol I don't even think of myself as a "speedballer" but I certainly was for a good few months (I can definitely vouch I did cocaine and heroin every day for at least a month and a half straight)...lots of people would be confused/wouldn't post in the "right area" or the "right area" could be either forum.


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## RedLeader

Ya, I think you just get too many polydrug users in OD to really find a workable split.  I'm voting to keep it the same.


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## Shambles

whiskeyplease said:


> Sorry, you're right. That's drug law here in the U.S. where they are grouped together under the title of "narcotic drugs. Coke does have pain killing attributes. It just doesn't affect the opiate receptors of the brain. Thanks for heads up, 'tis why I'm here .



Narcotic just means sleep-inducing and coke doesn't send most foks to sleep. The US government does have some odd ways of classifying stuff. Anyone would think they knew shit all about drugs 



RedLeader said:


> I tend to agree with this.  But then again where would the speedballers go?



That's why I like the way things are right now - every up has a down or a wobbly thing that happens when you combine the two :D

Then again, candyflip questions tend to come to PD rather than ED so these things can work themselves out.


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## johanneschimpo

I wrote a whole post but it needed too much editing so I just decided to just leave the last paragraph


I say if it ain't broke don't fit it. Shit, considering heroin/opioids & pharms (benzos,, etc etc) go together just about as well as any other drugs in OD, why not split our stimulant decision instead? That idea would be much easier to implement and I imagine it would work out very favorably and keep the information in the right forum as well as making it easier for someone to UTSE in the right forum and find what they are looking for. [this split seems like it would be much more effective than splitting opioids from OD].


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## JohnnyTruant

I vote NO.  I mean there is a lot off goofy ass shit that gets posted here (some amusing, some stupid, some....) that isn't related to opiates (which is why I am here), BUT...it certainly makes for interesting reading/education.  We have already kept the potheads and trippers shunted off to their own little areas...OTHER DRUGS covers a lot, and gets a lot of shite, but it's super useful.


No.  Keep it like it is, unless there's a good reason to break it up..


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## JohnnyTruant

drug struggler said:


> what would be the best drug combo to help me cope with the stress of having to decide if an opiate/od split would be in od's best interest?
> 
> What drugs would help me decide the best?!



lol.


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## sixpartseven

For those who don't like the idea of a split, or for those who may have an answer to the question...

One of the main reasons for people wanting a split is to reduce clutter and disorganization in OD. What other things can we do to help remedy this problem?


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## RedLeader

It's probably too late now, but if the poll could have somehow been done in an expanded way, where the person would say whether s/he was an opiate user or not, it could have made things more interesting.  



> Yes (opiate DOC)
> No (opiate DOC)
> Yes (opiate not DOC)
> No (opiate not DOC)


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## sixpartseven

^ That is a good idea, but it is too late now. However, this thread isn't the end of the discussion, so a poll like that can be implemented later on.

Good idea. Thanks.


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## Johnny blue

I voted for the seperation. Opiates obviously have enough attention to warrant their own forum sure. I think removing them from OD may redirect attention and draw in some lurkers who would otherwise be turned away by the constant opiate conversation.


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## El Patron

How long after viewing the opiate discussion forum is it safe to take my suboxone?


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## sixpartseven

Yes, some of the jokes posted in here are funny, but this is not the place for them. Leave the off-topic stuff in the Social thread. This thread is for serious discussion of splitting OD.

We will just unapprove any off-topic posts from here on out.


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## drug struggler

El Patron said:


> How long after viewing the opiate discussion forum is it safe to take my suboxone?



you'll go into precipitated wd's and die for sure...  opiate discussion forum is wayyyyy to strong for your punk ass 

Sorry, guise...  had to have some fun.

Initially I was all for the split, as I'm an opiate kinda guy...  After reading debate (especially C.H.'s points) I'm lost.  You all have worked so hard to make OD what it is and as a lurker and new contributor, it's my forum of choice. I'd hate to see it get fucked up or see key contributors lose interest.  I have yet to vote.  Will not hold contempt prior to some more investigation.  

The more I think about it, my input on the matter (or any other noob) should not be too influential. Personally, I look for and rely on veteran contributors (we all know who they are), bluelight crew, and staff for my answers.  Not to disregard anyone's contributions at all, don't get me wrong, but the same people I am talking about should be the people that have the say as to what becomes of OD, as they've developed and molded it thus far.


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## sixpartseven

^ Everyone's input is influential. As I pointed out, though, this poll is not actually a vote that will decide what happens. It is just one of the first stages in a discussion that will play out over the next few weeks, both here in OD and in Support.


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## LongKissGoodNite

There should most definitely be a separate forum.  There should actually be a few more, for example I did not see any 'stimulants' forum, and thats a major class of drugs.  Other Drugs should only be addressing little known drugs or off the wall drugs.  At least that was my interpretation.  

EDIT - 

Yea I suppose I should stop thinking of everything being 'open to interpretation' ;0)  There are some hard and fast things out there.


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## drug struggler

^ but that's why the forum guidelines are so darned awesome...  Then you don't have to interpret, just know.


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## El Patron

Sorry, I should have included that with my actual contribution. In my opinion, the pros do not outweigh the cons of splitting the forum. Think of the poor mods, I think almost as many threads end up moved or closed than allowed to continue, and the split would create even more errant posts that need to be dealt with. Furthermore, as was already stated, I think many people come for the opiate discussion but enjoy the diversity of topics and information available, all in one place which is the OD we all know and love. 

For example, opiates are my DOC but I also enjoy my adderall, the occasional benzo, and so on. I think the proposed opiate forum would suffer just as much without all the other stuff as OD would suffer without opiates.

However, if a split is made, please please please classify Tramadol as Other and not opiate. That shit does not belong. Same goes for darvocet and loperamide. If there's going to be an opiate forum, at least make it a REAL opiate forum.

^Ok, I was half-joking. But I do think the problem of classification and the resultig issues would have to be addressed. And we all know that no matter how it's supposed to work, a shit load of people are going to ignore it, and the mods will end up constantly cleaning it up.


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## tathra

Other Drugs *is* Opiate Discussion.

reducing 'clutter' (number of total posts) doesnt make a forum better, it just makes the mods' jobs easier.  OD has always been the go-to forum for everything thats NOT ecstasy (and, much later, not psychedelics...), and will always be the go-to for IV drug use.  Opiates arent the only drugs that get used primarily through IV, and splitting it would cause the same questions re:needle use to be posted in multiple places.  splitting OD into 'Opiates' and 'Everything else' would be redundant in other ways too...

if anything, perhaps creating an 'Opiates' subforum for OD might be alright, but still.  i'm against the idea.


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## CoMpMsTa

You know, I only just registered 2 nights ago to ask a question about poppy tea, and when looking through the forum categories on where to post my question, I was like "WTF? They don't have an opiate forum!?!? How the hell is that??" and was immediately thinking they should have had an opiate forum. After being here just a day, I immediately got used to the fact that there are SO many people in this section (OD) and agree that a split would no longer be such a great idea. 

So many great points made which convinced me that this section should not be split. I sure as hell am learning alot just by certain non-opiate posts catching my eye. What's funny is that I only came in here to read opiate posts. I love the way it is now. Splitting traffic is no good. Response times will be lower.


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## jackie jones

There are enough people who come into OD and BDD seeking information about opiates that a sub-forum directed to opiates in particular would certainly be right-minded.

It is a serious matter - _opiate use_. One of the more addictive types, without doubt. What makes it more serious than other more compulsatory drugs such as cocaine or methamphetamine, is the fact that the negative effects of opiates are not felt until a considerable amount of time after the drug is ceased. This in many ways makes the experience more desirable, more _necessary_ for the user to function in daily life. The addicted person then incorporates the drug into their life, then becoming connoisseuirs of opiates/opioids, prefered routes of administration, et cetera....

The main problem is, our systems do not react the same every time we dose - our systems are weakened during certain stress points, and the heart cannot handle being depressed at the same levels it can when it is well, increasingly so while we age. This is what I believe leads to many unintentional overdoses by those of us who 'know what we are doing'. We have to learn to listen to our systems better, before we force ourselves to feel very well.

Opiates are good medicines which, oppossed to most recreational drugs, affect our behavior and physiology (pain wise) in a positive manner. That is why they can be dangerous.


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## BaybeX

I don't think a split is quite necessary but I do believe that another moderator would be an extremely helpful addition this forum.  

In NO way am I trying to downplay the work that Leftwing and djsim ( I  you both ) have contributed to this forum because they both are absolutely fantastic mods.. but it seems as though they are both fairly busy with life outside of BL leaving the other three mods with a massive amount of threads to answer/move/lock on their own.

I truly appreciate the amount of information the moderators (and many other OD regulars) contribute to this forum.. but I do believe an additional mod would be quite beneficial to the forum especially with the amount of traffic coming through here.


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## Captain.Heroin

sixpartseven said:


> What other things can we do to help remedy this problem?



Require threads be approved by a moderator before showing up in the forum for all to see.  

Sounds about as feasible as splitting up OD and the archive, doesn't it?



LongKissGoodNite said:


> for example I did not see any 'stimulants' forum, and thats a major class of drugs.


Stimulants are a group of drugs.  A major class of drugs would be known as "amphetamines" or "phenethylamines" or "tryptamines", not just "stimulants".  Some psychedelic drugs are stimulating, others depressants, and others somewhat of a combo of the two...but all psychedelic drug discussion goes in PD for a reason.  

I don't think the stimulant/depressant split off would be a good idea either but I can see it's probably a better idea than just an opiate split off.


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## Cerp

I vote No.

I voiced my opinion on this issue when it was brought up about 3 years ago. I'm going to just quote myself for my argument on the matter. Keep in mind that OD has had a shift in the discussed topics. I believe back then, coke and amphetamines were more prominent than benzos are now. The argument then was splitting OD into uppers and downers.



			
				Cerp said:
			
		

> If my memory serves correctly, this issue has been brought up a few times in the past. It does seem logical to split up the forum for organizational purposes, which I originally thought was a good idea as well. However, according to previous discussions the forum remains as the beast known as "Other Drugs" because the users who are educated / experienced on opiates (downers), generally have a solid understanding of amphetamines, and cocaine; stimulants (uppers) as well and vice-versa.
> 
> Asking a question regarding cocaine might result in a answer given from someone who is a "regular opiate" poster. If the forum is split, this scenario, as well as the polar opposite scenario (switching upper Q and downer A) is less likely to occur. Answers to questions about everything inbetween "uppers" (coke/amphetamines) and "downers" (opiates)  such as anti-depressants, anti-psychs, benzos, MAOIs, SSRIs, etc might be harder to come by.
> 
> ^ That is what I have always gathered from the discussions anyway. I hope my explanation was not too confusing...


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## xxl

Where then do you put the non-opiate downers like benzos? They belong to the opiate group because people who abuse opiates often abuse benzos. ("_Can I snort Xanax_?", "_Can I shoot Ambien_?") If a split is made shouldn't it be 1)Stims (all sorts) 2) Downers (opiates and other).


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## Binge Artist

I say split.  

The OD mods all specialize in opiates.  BL needs more mentors/advice givers for drugs like coke, meth, etc.


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## Too many doses

If there was on opiate forum, obviously combo questions would be allowed in there.


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## Binge Artist

Another "pro split" argument:

Why do we have separate forums in the first place?  To organize information, right?  So, what "evils" could possibly come from the split?  BL will simply become more organized.  Evolution, right?


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## Oxymorphone

Yes, way too much stuff to sift through, I would even split it up further and do a forum for amphetaminea, coacaine/crack, benzos, and then other drugs.


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## Eagleman

I say split. An opiate forum would be awesome. Too much garbage in OD, splitting it up would make everyone's lives easier (mods and posters alike).


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## morphonorconic

I think it should remain the way it is and has been.  Without the discussion of Opioids, OD would effectively become a "Non-Opioid" or "everything but Opiates" Forum, which I would then be afraid that it might deter a lot of posters/members from even coming to OD after the split.  I don't think it's a stretch to say that at least half, if not more, of the OD Forum regulars are, we'll say, "familiar" with Opioids, if not all together obsessed with them.  Therefore, if a split were to take place, we would undoubtedly see a major shift in BL Forum traffic, for better or for worse.


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## sixpartseven

^ What is your drug of choice? Is it an opiate?

I'm seeing a lot of people who are open about opiates being their drug of choice are against the split. I think that, plus seeing OD as a sort of "home" on BL are the reason they are against it. OD has a following that has nothing to do with the drugs discussed in it, and I feel this is playing more of a role in your decisions than some of you may even realize.


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## drug struggler

sixpartseven said:


> ^ What is your drug of choice? Is it an opiate?
> 
> I'm seeing a lot of people who are open about opiates being their drug of choice are against the split. I think that, plus seeing OD as a sort of "home" on BL are the reason they are against it. OD has a following that has nothing to do with the drugs discussed in it, and I feel this is playing more of a role in your decisions than some of you may even realize.



I think you're right...  As a new member, I may peruse the other threads occasionally, but OD is my home...  I'm basically strictly an opiate head, yet I enjoy OD because i learn so much about other things, and because of the huge opiate community within OD.  So I feel I get the best of all worlds.


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## sixpartseven

^ I think OD being a "home" to a lot of regulars is an awesome thing. It can also work in favor of a split, or against a split, depending on how you want to look at it.

I don't know if any of you have noticed, but I haven't voted on this poll. This is because I can see it both ways and have no idea exactly how I feel about it.

Either way, my main concern is that the people who need the info can find it as easily as possible.


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## Cap'n Jay

there'd be two ODs then:
Opiate Discussion
and
Other Drugs
So then people would have to clarify...it would get confusing, I like the idea but the accronym (if that's what they're called) would get too fucking confusing. And when your high it just doesn't help at all. ]: Not that you can even understand anything you read when you're high anyways. Just saying, and of someone already said this then please pardon me by all means, I didn't read all of the posts in here. I don't think I have all day.

Peace,
Cap'n Jay.


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## Binge Artist

sixpartseven said:


> OD has a following that has nothing to do with the drugs discussed in it, and I feel this is playing more of a role in your decisions than some of you may even realize.



I'm noticing that too.  And even if some folks are worried about having their "home torn down", I'm sure there are ways to do the split while keeping the community in tact.  For example, a social thread that connects the split groups.


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## RedLeader

> a social thread that connects the split groups



Not really possible.  But at the rate you kids post in OD Social, I think you could handle double-fisting.


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## sixpartseven

Cap'n Jay said:


> there'd be two ODs then:
> Opiate Discussion
> and
> Other Drugs
> So then people would have to clarify...it would get confusing, I like the idea but the accronym (if that's what they're called) would get too fucking confusing. And when your high it just doesn't help at all. ]: Not that you can even understand anything you read when you're high anyways. Just saying, and of someone already said this then please pardon me by all means, I didn't read all of the posts in here. I don't think I have all day.
> 
> Peace,
> Cap'n Jay.



Good point, but the acronym (yes, that is the correct word ) is the least of our worries and is a problem that can be easily remedied. It doesn't have to be called "Opiate Discussion," and in the worst possible case, OD could be renamed to something along the lines of "Misc. Drugs" or whatever.

The point is, it's not something that should be influencing any opinions on the matter.



Binge Artist said:


> I'm noticing that too.  And even if some folks are worried about having their "home torn down", I'm sure there are ways to do the split while keeping the community in tact.  For example, a social thread that connects the split groups.



*Unfortunately* - it's a great idea, so that is an emphasized "unfortunately" for a reason - cross-forum threads are not possible on this version of the vbulletin software.

BUT, that does not mean there aren't ways to approach this issue. What if Opiate Discussion (working title, Cap'n Jay) was a sub-forum of OD, which as of now, is the plan if this idea moves on to the trial-run phase? That would mean the mods of OD would be the mods of the new OD, the regulars of OD would have easy access to the new OD without having to leave the old OD, and - Cap'n Jay will like this one - it will mean that calling it Opiate Discussion would work in our favor because when you say "I'm an OD regular/moderator/lurker" you are actually talking about _both_ OD's at the same time. It's actually highly convenient for us that both forums would be called OD.



RedLeader said:


> Not really possible.  But at the rate you kids post in OD Social, I think you could handle double-fisting.



Good point. There is no reason why OD regulars couldn't flip between two forums if they are so easily able to post a new post every 45 seconds so efficiently in the Social thread.


----------



## Binge Artist

RedLeader (and sixpartseven) said:


> Not really possible.



This is almost certainly possible.  For example, put the social in the "New Other Drugs", and put "Junkies Welcome" in the title.

BTW (RL).  In another thread in another forum, possibly on another site, you posed the question "Is it possible that anything is possible is false?".

I say, it's necessarily false.


----------



## sixpartseven

^ I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. If we did it like that, it wouldn't really connect the forums at all. I was under the impression that what you meant was a thread that would be in both forums, and posts from users in either forum would be visible in both forums, making it a thread that connects to forums.


----------



## RedLeader

^ You're stalking me on other sites now!?!? Nah, that was from a brief day or so when I decided to troll P&S  

And I thought you meant cross-forum threads when you said a connected social thread.  As 6/7 said, that's not possible with our software.

Edit: At Bingin' Artist


----------



## Binge Artist

sixpartseven said:


> That would mean the mods of OD would be the mods of the new OD



Yeah, but this would be contradicting a very good reason for a split--having additional moderators that specialize in non-opioid drugs.


----------



## sixpartseven

Personally, I agree. 

Not much more to add on that point as of now.


----------



## drug struggler

sixpartseven said:


> ^ I think OD being a "home" to a lot of regulars is an awesome thing. It can also work in favor of a split, or against a split, depending on how you want to look at it.
> 
> I don't know if any of you have noticed, but I haven't voted on this poll. This is because I can see it both ways and have no idea exactly how I feel about it.
> 
> Either way, my main concern is that the people who need the info can find it as easily as possible.



I have yet to vote still also...  I couldn't give you a straight answer this moment, it's too hard to wrap my brain around entirely...  Even tho I'm a new contributing member, I have been successfully using BL (namely OD) for yrs now to find all my safe routines, trustworthy answers, and in some cases, comedic relief   I can honestly say that I've NEVER had *too* difficult a time locating any information, regardless of what or where.  The longer I am here, however, the more pissed I'm getting seeing new members (and especially pissed seeing not so new members) posting questions that common sense can answer in many instances, but a search would easily generate answers for regardless of validity or importance.  

I admit, I fuck around here being a smart-ass every once in a while, it's my nature, but some people are downright rude, ignorant, and disregard that this is in place as a harm reduction site ("oh man just dissolve it an bang it,"  or "no tolerance, I'd take half.")  What I'm getting at is, while it may lessen membership, every time I suggest an aptitude test to join BL, I'm fucking serious as a heart attack!  I think new threads need to have some sort of auto-validity/auto-anti-repeat feature   I also think that when someone writes "just bang it" or any other ignorant shit, more serious warnings need to be issued, and banning needs to be like a 2 strike (3 max) type thing...  Sure, there may be less members (good!), but quality is far more important here than quantity on a site such as this.

It's obvious the question of splitting things up was posed as one way to make moderation easier and most importantly, information easier to find.  I think both of these could be achieved easier than splitting by making it somehow mandatory for new members to read forum guidelines.  ie., a new member cannot continue the process until literature is read and accepted as the law.  I think with stricter moderation, mandatory guideline viewing and signing, and some preliminary aptitude screening, a split would be less needed.

I  BL!


----------



## Binge Artist

sixpartseven said:


> ^ I'm not sure I follow what you're saying. If we did it like that, it wouldn't really connect the forums at all. I was under the impression that what you meant was a thread that would be in both forums, and posts from users in either forum would be visible in both forums, making it a thread that connects to forums.




Not exactly...Basically, the "vibe" I'm getting from a lot of opiate using OD'ers, is that a split would, and it's hard to describe this without using metaphores, "disrupt their community"...in other words, they feel as if the split would somehow cause them to lose contact with their non-opiate OD buddies.

And basically, I think there are surely MANY ways around this, even if I don't know any good ones off the top of my head.


----------



## sixpartseven

drug struggler said:


> It's obvious the question of splitting things up was posed as one way to make moderation easier and most importantly, information easier to find.  I think both of these could be achieved easier than splitting by making it somehow mandatory for new members to read forum guidelines.  ie., a new member cannot continue the process until literature is read and accepted as the law.  I think with stricter moderation, mandatory guideline viewing and signing, and some preliminary aptitude screening, a split would be less needed.
> 
> I  BL!



Whether I agree with this or not, I won't say, but it doesn't matter because none of that is an option.

You can't force someone to read something on the internet. How will you know they actually read it?

Aptitude test is out of the question because it would be extremely easy to cheat on, and most importantly, an issue that BA just brought up, is that some members/mods don't know much about certain types of drugs. Some specialize in opiates, others with amphetamines, others with psychedelics, and so on and so on. An aptitude test wouldn't be fair because for someone who knew everything about opiates but very little about anything else would be denied access because of this, when they could have been a huge asset to the site for what knowledge they do have.

Is a split the next best option? I have no idea. But it _is_ an option, and until we come up with something better that we can actually implement, it's the only option, besides continuing things the way they have been going.

Would it be a bad thing to continue things the way they have been going? Not at all. The question is whether things would be better if we did something different.


----------



## Cap'n Jay

sixpartseven said:


> BUT, that does not mean there aren't ways to approach this issue. What if Opiate Discussion (working title, Cap'n Jay) was a sub-forum of OD, which as of now, is the plan if this idea moves on to the trial-run phase? That would mean the mods of OD would be the mods of the new OD, the regulars of OD would have easy access to the new OD without having to leave the old OD, and - Cap'n Jay will like this one - it will mean that calling it Opiate Discussion would work in our favor because when you say "I'm an OD regular/moderator/lurker" you are actually talking about _both_ OD's at the same time. It's actually highly convenient for us that both forums would be called OD.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. There is no reason why OD regulars couldn't flip between two forums if they are so easily able to post a new post every 45 seconds so efficiently in the Social thread.



Reading that really hurt my brain. >_<
Good Lord, I have never in my life seen so many ODs in one damn paragraph in my whole life. It should be like a sub-topic within the original OD, that's why you're trying to stay, right?
Please tell me that's what your trying to say, I'm trying not to think too much today.

Cap'n Jay.


----------



## sixpartseven

Binge Artist said:


> Not exactly...Basically, the "vibe" I'm getting from a lot of opiate using OD'ers, is that a split would, and it's hard to describe this without using metaphores, "disrupt their community"...in other words, they feel as if the split would somehow cause them to lose contact with their non-opiate OD buddies.
> 
> And basically, I think there are surely MANY ways around this, even if I don't know any good ones off the top of my head.



I agree, I just wasn't sure what you meant by a social thread that connected the two forums.


----------



## Eagleman

Binge Artist said:


> Not exactly...Basically, the "vibe" I'm getting from a lot of opiate using OD'ers, is that a split would, and it's hard to describe this without using metaphores, "disrupt their community"...in other words, they feel as if the split would somehow cause them to lose contact with their non-opiate OD buddies.
> 
> And basically, I think there are surely MANY ways around this, even if I don't know any good ones off the top of my head.



If they feel that being a click away from their other OD buddies is too far away, then they have serious motivation issues and shouldn't consider them buddies if a mouse click is too much effort.


----------



## sixpartseven

Cap'n Jay said:


> Reading that really hurt my brain. >_<
> Good Lord, I have never in my life seen so many ODs in one damn paragraph in my whole life. It should be like a sub-topic within the original OD, that's why you're trying to stay, right?
> Please tell me that's what your trying to say, I'm trying not to think too much today.
> 
> Cap'n Jay.



lol it is a lot of ODs, yes.

It would be a sub-forum; a forum with-in a forum. You would access the original OD the same way you do now, but at the top of the page, where the OD Archive is, would be a link to Opiate Discussion, the sub-forum inside the original forum.

Make sense?



Eagleman said:


> If they feel that being a click away from their other OD buddies is too far away, then they have serious motivation issues and shouldn't consider them buddies if a mouse click is too much effort.



Excellent point, and speaks to what I was saying about the following OD has. It's not about what is discussed in the forum that keeps people from being for a split, it's the image and community of OD. It's the reputation the forum has. Most of the people who subscribed to this are people whose drugs of choice are opiates.

Splitting OD would mean they would have to now post in a different forum, dissociating them from the original OD, thus dissociating them from the "image and reputation" that they are apart of when they are considered as being an "OD Regular."

I think that is what turns people off of the idea.


----------



## Binge Artist

^a lot of arguments in this thread.

Maybe you could use your closed "sticky" thread to periodically summarize the Pro/Con positions?


----------



## sixpartseven

^ Explain, please? I have an idea of what you mean, and it sounds like a good idea, but I want to be sure of exactly what you mean and how we would go about doing it.


----------



## Cap'n Jay

Yeah, I get it.
* sarcasm starts *
And yes a click is just too far. :'(
* sarcasm ends *

Go for it I say. [:

Cap'n Jay.


----------



## Binge Artist

sixpartseven said:


> ^ Explain, please? I have an idea of what you mean, and it sounds like a good idea, but I want to be sure of exactly what you mean and how we would go about doing it.




Well, this thread has become sort of a "hot topic".  And as such, a lot of good arugments will go unnoticed, simply because of the large post count in here.

For example, in your first post in this thread, you summarized one or two arguments, both pro and con, for the split.

Maybe your sticky thread could expand the summarization to include all (or at least, all of the good ones) the arguments.


----------



## sixpartseven

Gotcha.

Great idea. I will go through this thread some time today/tonight and do that. It probably wouldn't hurt to post a summary of all the arguments in here, too.

Thanks, man.


----------



## drug struggler

sixpartseven said:


> Whether I agree with this or not, I won't say, but it doesn't matter because none of that is an option.
> 
> You can't force someone to read something on the internet. How will you know they actually read it?
> 
> Aptitude test is out of the question because it would be extremely easy to cheat on, and most importantly, an issue that BA just brought up, is that some members/mods don't know much about certain types of drugs. Some specialize in opiates, others with amphetamines, others with psychedelics, and so on and so on. An aptitude test wouldn't be fair because for someone who knew everything about opiates but very little about anything else would be denied access because of this, when they could have been a huge asset to the site for what knowledge they do have.
> 
> Is a split the next best option? I have no idea. But it _is_ an option, and until we come up with something better that we can actually implement, it's the only option, besides continuing things the way they have been going.
> 
> Would it be a bad thing to continue things the way they have been going? Not at all. The question is whether things would be better if we did something different.



Aptitude testing was a pipe dream, but you get my point.  Perhaps I meant something along those lines, whatever the case, just thinking out loud.  I agree it wouldn't be fair, no one needs to know everything about everything to join, especially as some members have legitimate questions and concerns regarding just one substance.  

I do think there would ultimately be less clutter here by enforcing stricter moderation.  I know nobody likes to have to discipline people or be a thread nazzi, but if I'm sick of seeing ignorant responses and threads I can't imagine how veteran mods must feel.  And this goes tenfold for new threads, but I have to admit, the mods here are real quick to tell someone this isn't allowed or this is BDD material, or this is just plain fucking stupid etc., so maybe I ust need to shut the fuck up for a bit here...  I'm sorry if I've digressed too much from the original topic...  I suppose I'm trying to come up with alternatives to a split because I like OD the way it is, with the only exception being what I've already touched on, stupidity   But I guess stupidity is inevitable in this world we live in, whether it's here or at the grocery store or driving down the freeway etc.

Good luck coming to a final decision, BL


----------



## ugly_pickle

yes split it up


----------



## Nib

Yea it seems like 90% of the posts in OD are for opiates anyway, might as well give them their own forum.


----------



## tathra

just some random points based off replies i've seen here

OD worked fine for years and years without a "Social" thread.  there are plenty of better, more efficient ways to socialize than using a single thread in a forum.

up until recently (well, i'm not sure just how 'recently' due to my prolonged absence) most of the regulars were polydrug abusers, or still knew a lot about a variety of drugs, and the various methods of administration; were experts on needle use, experts on finding ways to smoke anything, had _tried_ shooting just about everything, etc

OD has always been filled with stupid questions that have been answered a thousand times before.



> I do think there would ultimately be less clutter here by enforcing stricter moderation.


bingo.  thats part of why we were always such dicks in the past.  after seeing 100 threads on oxycontin and drug tests and pill ids in a single day, it makes you want to overdose, or slap the shit out of all those idiots.


----------



## johanneschimpo

^ I suppose the question is: will there be less clutter, or will there be two forums worth of clutter?


----------



## johanneschimpo

Here's one thread on this subject: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=375357 

Here's another (brief) one, but it has links to about five others: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=451745



--- spoiler alert: OD doesn't get split at the end of any of those threads ---






edit: oops, forgot one of the links


----------



## Arobskittle

at first i said yes

now i say no after reading some of the staff opinions on the matter 

mostly Captain H and phrozen

good shit keep em together!


----------



## vonchampz

johanneschimpo said:


> ^ I suppose the question is: will there be less clutter, or will there be two forums worth of clutter?



I think that is a really valid point. I lean towards the more clutter side. We see soo many of the classic "how to smoke OC" or "How many hours do I have to wait in order to take my suboxone" that I think the opiate forum would get just as much clutter.


----------



## sixpartseven

Every forum has clutter, and every forum will always have clutter. The idea that the Opiate Discussion forum could somehow stray from this norm is silly. It will be cluttered, just like all the other forums. If clutter stopped BL from creating new forums, we'd all be posting in the Ecstasy Discussion, because that would be the only forum we have.


----------



## vonchampz

Yeah i see your point 6/7, I just think it is one other con on top of the list.


----------



## Shambles

Binge Artist said:


> The OD mods all specialize in opiates.  BL needs more mentors/advice givers for drugs like coke, meth, etc.



I think that point is relevant. If OD is split then who covers the "leftovers"?



Too many doses said:


> If there was on opiate forum, obviously combo questions would be allowed in there.



Not necessarily so obvious. If you where to post a combo question in ED on LSD + MDMA (for example) it'll most likely be moved to PD. If it were an MDMA + H combo question it'd probably end up in OD as things stand. Either way I doubt it'd be left in ED despite being a question about an "ecstasy" combo.



drug struggler said:


> I admit, I fuck around here being a smart-ass every once in a while, it's my nature, but some people are downright rude, ignorant, and disregard that this is in place as a harm reduction site ("oh man just dissolve it an bang it,"  or "no tolerance, I'd take half.")  What I'm getting at is, while it may lessen membership, every time I suggest an aptitude test to join BL, I'm fucking serious as a heart attack!  I think new threads need to have some sort of auto-validity/auto-anti-repeat feature   I also think that when someone writes "just bang it" or any other ignorant shit, more serious warnings need to be issued, and banning needs to be like a 2 strike (3 max) type thing...  Sure, there may be less members (good!), but quality is far more important here than quantity on a site such as this.



Hehe. Much as I kinda like the idea of having to pass a drug aptitude test D) to be "allowed" to post on BL it kinda misses the whole point of a harm reduction site. As annoying as they are to read, the bazillion and one "Can I smoke oxy?" questions represent a bazillion and one people whose lungs may thank us down the line if their question is answered rather than sneered at 

(Not suggesting that you or others are especially sneery but we're all guilty of it sometimes when it comes to noob questions.)



sixpartseven said:


> Every forum has clutter, and every forum will always have clutter. The idea that the Opiate Discussion forum could somehow stray from this norm is silly. It will be cluttered, just like all the other forums. If clutter stopped BL from creating new forums, we'd all be posting in the Ecstasy Discussion, because that would be the only forum we have.



Very true. The idea of a split has sod all to do with reducing clutter really - it's more about whether a seperate opiate forum would meet the members' - new and old alike - needs better 

I'm also in the "Yet to vote" camp as my mind isn't dead set one way or the other so far. It's great to see the amount of discussion generated though


----------



## sixpartseven

^ Although I'm undecided as well, I'm trying to play both sides in this thread so that we can discuss every aspect of this idea and hopefully make the right decision in the end.

Also, FWIW, 8 of the 17 people who voted "No" to the split are OD Social regulars . Just thought some of you may find that interesting.


----------



## johanneschimpo

^ 
On that note, for the "no" votes, 5 of the 17 are staff members [30%].

For the "Yes" votes, only 3 of the 59 are staff members [5%].



I thought you might find that one interesting.  



(I concede that my count could be off by one or two, I don't know all the crew members, especially of other forums. Anyone care to double check my work?)


----------



## tathra

also, 3 of the "no" votes are current/former OD mods, while none of the "yes" votes fit in that category


----------



## sixpartseven

tathra said:


> also, 3 of the "no" votes are current/former OD mods, while none of the "yes" votes fit in that category



...which supports my claim about the connection to OD and not wanting to change it. I should also point out that 6 _active_ OD staff have not voted yet (myself, leftwing, djsim, Unknown, Shambles and Phrozen), so there is potential for there to be 6 "yes" and 3 "no" votes.

I'm not pointing this stuff out to influence anyone. It's just an observation I made that I thought was interesting. If the remaining 6 staff members vote "yes," it completely blows my claim out of the water. The claim is not really a claim at all, just a theory that has been based off of the votes so far.

As I've said, I'm on the fence still, so I have no agenda to sway the vote in any direction.


----------



## tathra

i think part of the old guard wanting things to stay the same is the "why fix it if it aint broke?" idea.

in a previous discussion on the subject (linked earlier in this thread), several well-written points were made about how more forums isnt necessarily a good idea, and how Other Drugs is the forum for _polydrug abuse_.  making an entirely seperate opiates discussion forum would filter out all the non-polydrug opiate threads, but then a lot of lazy and highly intelligent people would likely pick either one or the other to focus on, neglecting the other one.  a split would spread out the knowledge base, and would probably end up leaving questions not being answered as well as they could be.


----------



## sixpartseven

tathra said:


> i think part of the old guard wanting things to stay the same is the "why fix it if it aint broke?" idea.



It's not broke to the old guard because they are used to the way things are. You have to think of newer members and how they view the site. It's easy for us to find info because we know where it is. This does not mean it's easy for the noobs to find it, though.



> in a previous discussion on the subject (linked earlier in this thread), several well-written points were made about how more forums isnt necessarily a good idea, and how Other Drugs is the forum for _polydrug abuse_.  making an entirely seperate opiates discussion forum would filter out all the non-polydrug opiate threads, but then a lot of lazy and highly intelligent people would likely pick either one or the other to focus on, neglecting the other one.  a split would spread out the knowledge base, and would probably end up leaving questions not being answered as well as they could be.



Where is the evidence to show that it would be disregarded by the "lazy, highly intelligent people?" What happens in OD to make anyone think this is true? Tons of posters in OD also post in other forums, so why wouldn't they also post in an Opiate Discussion forum?

I think these "poly-drug" and "OD would be ignored" arguments have no weight. Why couldn't poly-drug questions be allowed in the new forum, as long as the primary focus was on the opiates? What proof is there that any forum would be ignored by the creation of a new forum?


----------



## jackie jones

OD handles the topics concerning opiate use quite well, but it is a subject that goes deep and is one that tends to flood the forum with questions, making other threads dissapear. I think it would be a very active sub-forum and make OD more able to address all the _other drugs_, which is quite the category in itself.

As it is, in the first two pages alone in OD, over 1/3 of the threads are about opiates (not to mention the opiate threads which are moved to BDD).


----------



## Captain.Heroin

Binge Artist said:


> Yeah, but this would be contradicting a very good reason for a split--having additional moderators that specialize in non-opioid drugs.



We don't need more modsticks in the sausage fest.


----------



## Captain.Heroin

johanneschimpo said:


> ^ I suppose the question is: will there be less clutter, or will there be two forums worth of clutter?



THANK YOU.

It would be 2 forums of clutter.

If you don't believe me, visit BDD!


----------



## Shambles

sixpartseven said:


> I should also point out that 6 _active_ OD staff have not voted yet (myself, leftwing, djsim, Unknown, Shambles and Phrozen)



*cough* Rogue Robot *cough*





mrjackjones said:


> OD handles the topics concerning opiate use quite well, but it is a subject that goes deep and is one that tends to flood the forum with questions, making other threads dissapear. I think it would be a very active sub-forum and make OD more able to address all the _other drugs_, which is quite the category in itself.
> 
> As it is, in the first two pages alone in OD, over 1/3 of the threads are about opiates (not to mention the opiate threads which are moved to BDD).



I think this is a good point. The sheer volume of opiate-specific posts is one thing that may be in favour of a split OD. On the other hand, I can see the possible polydrug-user drain effect Tathra and others have suggested. Not so sure I'm convinced it would be a significant effect in the grand scheme though. I suspect most knowledgeable members would read and post in both forums (and hopefully many others too .



Captain.Heroin said:


> We don't need more modsticks in the sausage fest.



Are you insane?!? There's never enough soft baps to keep the sausages cosy and comfy. Can't have sausages without baps - sossie butties ftw


----------



## drapedup

Too many doses said:


> I feel that while there is enough opiate discussion to warrant it's own forum but OD would be a shell of it's self in a sort without it. It's the majority of traffic so if it was split OD should be renamed to list the drugs that are discussed there. I'd be down to see a split but only if certain criteria were met to ensure OD remains a good resource and frequently visited.



In my opinion OD may as well be an opiate forum in the first place. I don't think that making a new independent opiate thread is going to hurt the overall traffic of BL. I think it will actually increase traffic overall. I voted for the split.


----------



## Cosmic Charlie

I'd *mod* the opiate road show 

lets spread love cross the planet


----------



## soldierkahn

I personally think that splitting them up would be a great idea, mainly because i hate having to sift through so much other "garbage" to find the threads on my favorite topic, opiates.


----------



## sixpartseven

Shambles said:


> *cough* Rogue Robot *cough*



Ahh! I feel like an asshole now. I swear I included her.

I apologize RR  Still love me?


----------



## sixpartseven

Captain.Heroin said:


> THANK YOU.
> 
> It would be 2 forums of clutter.
> 
> If you don't believe me, visit BDD!



Why do you think it would be another forum full of clutter? Also, did you read my post about forum clutter? It happens no matter what, and should never be a reason to hold us back from branching out into new forums.



soldierkahn said:


> I personally think that splitting them up would be a great idea, mainly because i hate having to sift through so much other "garbage" to find the threads on my favorite topic, opiates.



This is the perfect argument for a split. All the members who post in OD purely for the opiate threads would have a place to go where they can avoid the other topics. The "poly-drug posters" would visit both OD and the new ODD (titled ODD by phrozen, so that's what I'm calling it from now on), and those who don't care about opiates at all would stay in OD.

Now, I know I'm going to see a lot of posts saying "poly-drug users would not want to post in both," but my argument to that is, why not? I guarantee you these members post in other forums besides OD, so why couldn't they also post in ODD? Is it really that hard to make one click of the mouse to move over to a sub-forum of the forum you are already in?

Also, we're going to see arguments saying "but what do we do with poly-drug posts? Which forum would they go in?" The answer to that is: whatever the primary focus of the thread is.

For example, if someone says "How much xanax can I safely take with heroin?" the primary focus is heroin, so it would be posted in the opiate forum.

If someone says, "Would heroin be a good drug to use during the comedown from cocaine?" the primary focus is cocaine, so it would be posted in OD.

I know there will be some threads where it isn't clear, but that's what we have human moderators for. They are able to use discretion and make decisions on things with no clear solution. Whatever forum they feel it fits best in is what forum they would put the thread in.

But that doesn't even matter, because if opiate discussion is a sub-forum of OD, then we could just make a general rule that poly-drug threads go in OD, and opiate specific threads go in ODD. They are staffed and viewed by the same people, and are technically in the same forum, so to me, it's a really simple solution.


----------



## PinK~cloud

This forums is too packed with opiate questions to be really called 'other drugs' anyway.


----------



## triiper

fuck this idea then we'd all have to go to 2 different forums.


----------



## sixpartseven

^ Are you really that lazy that one mouse click is too much work for you? I can't believe I'm even responding to that comment since it's been addressed multiple times, most recently by me, 2 posts above you.

Come on. If anyone's going to argue for or against this, read the other arguments first, then use legitimate arguments of your own.


----------



## triiper

there will be missing a lot of input on drugs from people if you split in 2 forums.  i won't go to 2 forums.


----------



## sixpartseven

You're still just repeating arguments that have already been addressed. There is no reason to think any forum would be ignored if another forum was added.


----------



## triiper

well its simple really.  i've done almost every drug available but you won't see me posting in the weed or psychedelic forum.  just like most people here i bet.  regardless of what you think, most people will branch out into one specific forum, and perhaps valuable input will be lost.  maybe not so much in the short term, but in the long term no doubt.  and if you think i'm reading through 5 pages of garbage well you're wrong.  just take my posts as i'm agreeing with something already said.


----------



## sixpartseven

But you don't even know if you're agreeing with something that has already been said. How would you if you haven't read it? I shouldn't even be taking you seriously when you say "and if you think i'm reading through 5 pages of garbage well you're wrong." Obviously you don't care enough to read the discussion, so why should your opinion about it matter? How is your post any-more important than the other "garbage" posts you refuse to read?

Just because you won't visit two forums doesn't mean other people won't, _especially_ when the new forum is going to be _inside_ the original forum. It's literally _right there_ in front of your face when viewing the threads you would normally view. It's literally _a single mouse click_ away.

It would be like visiting OD right now and going into the OD Archive. It will be listed right there above the archive, just as easy to access as the archive is. Are you telling me no one goes into the archive? A lot of people do, and I would put money on even more people going to the new forum if it was just as easy to get to.


----------



## triiper

i might not know that i'm agreeing with something already said, but you do.  and isn't that the point?

and if it's how you said and opioid discussion would be inside OD, then it wouldn't be a bad idea.


----------



## sixpartseven

^ No, it's not the point. Basically, you just argued against it, but because you didn't know the full story (because you didn't read it), it turns out you actually agreed with it.

So, in effect, you just wasted 20 minutes of our time arguing about something when, in fact, we both agree. (I don't mean to say I support the split, because I don't know yet, but I do agree that it wouldn't be a bad idea to do it as a sub-forum, _if_ we do it at all.)

Maybe next time, you might wanna read the whole thread before commenting.


----------



## triiper

well i read most of the first page and you didn't make it very clear.  so you're responsible for 10 of the 20min.  50/50 is all i'll take responsibility for.


----------



## sixpartseven

lol fair enough. I'll give you that.


----------



## triiper

glad we agree


----------



## sixpartseven

Agreed, then.

Ok, I got my Suboxone in me, Massive Attack bumping, so it's time I go through the thread and make a list of FOR and AGAINST arguments.

Expect it to be posted with-in the hour.



RedLeader said:


> Whoever gets to split up the archive, if the change is made, have fun!!!!!!



If ODD is a sub-forum, it would share the archive with OD, so need to divide it up.


----------



## sixpartseven

*List of all the FOR and AGAINST arguments*

I'm going to post them in groups instead of a point/counter-point format. Please read both groups before arguing for/against any point listed, because most likely, your argument for/against any point is already listed in the opposing group. I tried to have at least one counter-point to each argument, but after you read both groups, if you see that any argument does not have its counter-point, _then_ let me know and I'll add it. Just make sure you read both lists in their entirety first.

I tried to be as fair as possible. If you detect any bias in these lists, it was purely accidental. I went through the _entire thread_, read _every single post_, and summarized every argument made. There may be repeats, but that comes from the arguments being made in various ways and me not realizing that they were essentially saying the same thing as another argument.

Basically, don't take any of this as being my official opinion, or me trying to sway the argument in any way. Like I said, if anyone finds mistakes or bias, let me know and I'll do my best to correct it and make it as fair as humanly possible.

*FOR -*


There is enough opiate discussion in OD to sustain a forum
ODD gives members only interested in opiates a place to go and avoid other topics
Rename OD after the split to reflect the drugs it covers to encourage members interested in these drugs to post
It could be argued that opiates do NOT make up the majority of OD topics (50/50 split)
ODD will only be one click away from OD; it will be a sub-forum of OD
ODD will draw in lurkers who don't like the set-up of OD/are intimidated by OD/are turned-off by the format of OD, and just want to post about opiates.
ODD will reduce the clutter in OD
Forums will always have clutter, so citing ODD becoming cluttered as a reason against a split is not valid
Problems with poly-drug threads would be solved by ODD being a sub-forum of OD. Poly-drug threads would stay in OD, while ODD covered opiates only.
"Old Hats" like OD as it is because they are used to the format; they know where everything is. "If it aint broke, don't fix it." New members unfamiliar with BL and OD may not see it the same way
OD Moderators specialize in opiates. We need a forum and Mods who specialize in different drugs. OD and its new Mods would be just that after the split.
We have different forums that cover various drugs for a very important reason: organization. ODD would encourage more organization of information


*AGAINST -*


Opiates are the majority of OD subject matter. A split will reduce OD to a shell of its former self. The 50/50 argument is based off one sample taken from the first page of OD.
OD regulars and other major contributors would migrate to ODD, ignoring threads in OD because most of them are opiate users
OD regulars would ignore ODD because OD is a "home" to them
Those whose drugs of choice are opiates read non-opiate topics based on other factors - post count of thread, original poster, last poster, number of posts in the thread. Taking opiates out of OD would reduce the number of people reading and replying to other threads
There would be a decline in quality of posts
Where would poly-drug questions go?
Don't split opiates off, but split OD into Uppers and Downers instead
Creating a new forum for opiates would just be creating another forum full of clutter


----------



## phr

Another option, which I've explored and brought up for discussion amongst staff, is prefixes. If anyone is unfamiliar with what they are, check out the Drug Studies forum.

Basically they're labels visible in the thread title used to categorize threads. They work the same way tags work on blogs, among other things.

So, how would they be implemented?
Right now the driving idea is that there would be prefixes created for various drugs (and perhaps topics) that are common in here; pharm opiates, heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, etc.
They would be applied by moderators, with us deciding if we should allow thread starters the ability to apply them in the future. All new threads would get them, and we'd be adding bumped threads( and older threads eventually).

So, what are the advantages?
The main advantage is that there's a drop down menu at the bottom of the page that allows you to only display threads according to whichever prefix you choose. So if you only want to see threads about heroin, it's easily done. Also, it would be much easier to figure out what substance the thread covers by looking at the prefix, if you're displaying all threads, which would be the default.

Other than that, OD would remain exactly the same.


----------



## tathra

the prefixing idea sounds great.  rather than further fragmenting bluelight by adding new forums to cope with growth, it offers a simple way to keep things organized and make both sides of the debate happy.


----------



## Unknown

I think we should spilt up all major classes, not just opiates. The polydrug threads remain in the OD parent forum.


----------



## johanneschimpo

^ doesn't that become a bitch when a thread goes from "blah blah opiates" to "blah blah opiates and coke,"  then you "have" to move it from the opiate sub forum to the polydrug parent forum (etc...)?




If anything must change, prefixes sound like the 'best' solution.


----------



## soldierkahn

sixpartseven said:


> ^ Are you really that lazy that one mouse click is too much work for you? I can't believe I'm even responding to that comment since it's been addressed multiple times, most recently by me, 2 posts above you.
> 
> Come on. If anyone's going to argue for or against this, read the other arguments first, then use legitimate arguments of your own.



i cant believe you even wasted the time replying to someone with such a half ass attempt at spouting his opinion...


----------



## Unknown

johanneschimpo said:


> ^ doesn't that become a bitch when a thread goes from "blah blah opiates" to "blah blah opiates and coke,"  then you "have" to move it from the opiate sub forum to the polydrug parent forum (etc...)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If anything must change, prefixes sound like the 'best' solution.



I think prefixes would honestly look like shit...

Other Drugs is the parent forum. Polydrug threads would remain in Other Drugs, and drug specific threads would go to their respected subforum.


----------



## Çhi√aDî√ina

I am personally in favor of making a separate opiate forum, both for selfish reasons and for logical reasons. I am primarily an opiate user at this point, and therefore am inclined to support making opiate discussion an independent forum. But in addition to that, it simply makes sense. There are specialized forums for other specific drugs. While "opiate" is rather a _class_ of drug, with many varied chemicals under its umbrella nomenclature, its peculiarity in comparison to other classes, and its varied multi-continental usage over a period of many _centuries_ dictates that this class of drugs be notable in separateness.

The sheer volume of opiate users and discussers throughout OD overwhelms *by alot* all other OD traffic. The defense that OD traffic would wither is partially true, but not valid as a defense. Perhaps it would be appropriate, as it is in many instances of *progress*, to adopt a new perspective of things? Perhaps Other Drugs should truly be reserved for "other drugs", drugs that are not generally included under a _widely-used and understood_ taxonomical umbrella term. Things like mephedrone. Zolpidem. GHB. Pentobarbital.

Merely someone who has a deeply held belief that _when things can be improved, they should be_, while I am *NOT* one who agrees that *change for the sake of change* is good.


----------



## sixpartseven

^ Well put. That is the kind of post I like to see in this thread.

Unknown: How the prefixes look is the least of our worries.


----------



## StaffWriter

I say leave it alone. I like to read about the drugs  I dont even do. Pharmaceuticals come in all types and it should be in one forum just like this one. This goes for the illicits too. Too many people combine two drugs (not just speedballers) and there would be a dispute on exactly which thread would be best suited for many posters. I smoke weed, but I almost never go over to Cannabis Discussion, because it's boring (how many people like blunts more than joints, etc.) In honor of Phreex, keep OD the same!


----------



## Syd_Barret

Don't split it, I'll cry.


----------



## PinK~cloud

after reading the for and against i wanna agree with part of the against that most OD'ers are primarily opiate users; the big names around OD will migrate and OD will be left with tweakers, crack heads, and subjective information.


----------



## HighonLife

StaffWriter said:


> I say leave it alone. I like to read about the drugs  I dont even do. Pharmaceuticals come in all types and it should be in one forum just like this one. This goes for the illicits too. Too many people combine two drugs (not just speedballers) and there would be a dispute on exactly which thread would be best suited for many posters. I smoke weed, but I almost never go over to Cannabis Discussion, because it's boring (how many people like blunts more than joints, etc.) In honor of Phreex, keep OD the same!



+1, to all of it


----------



## Eagleman

StaffWriter said:


> In honor of Phreex, keep OD the same!



The guilt trip approach eh?


----------



## Eagleman

PinK~cloud said:


> after reading the for and against i wanna agree with part of the against that most OD'ers are primarily opiate users; the big names around OD will migrate and OD will be left with tweakers, crack heads, and subjective information.



So let the tweakers and crackheads have a place to call home too. It won't be just that though; as mentioned, all the mephedrone and methylone questions would fall into OD, and meph / methy are pretty big right now.
There are also many many threads about Adderall and Ritalin; many many threads about benzos and other downers; and plenty of other threads about various pharmaceuticals and street drugs. Also many people post about antidepressants, supplements, and various OTC drugs (especially DXM). I don't think OD would crumble at all. It'll just be a little different.
Split OD! Split OD! ODD or NO-DD!
And who's to say ODD wouldn't contain subjective info? Every forum has it and will always have it. I just think opiates deserve a forum because it is a very unique class of drugs. Ecstasy has its own forum right? And one could safely call ecstasy one drug (I know its not, but dig me) while opiates is a very, very broad class.


----------



## johanneschimpo

Eagleman said:


> So let the tweakers and crackheads have a place to call home too.


They do. Its called OD.



Eagleman said:


> It won't be just that though; as mentioned, all the mephedrone and methylone questions would fall into OD


They already do fall into OD. (Well, sometimes. Sometimes they are in PD, right? At least methylone, I don't know about mephedrone. I don't visit PD much.)





I propose a compromise: give mephedrone its own forum, let bob loblaw mod it, and leave OD intact. How about that?


----------



## Eagleman

johanneschimpo said:


> They do. Its called OD.
> 
> 
> They already do fall into OD. (Well, sometimes. Sometimes they are in PD, right? At least methylone, I don't know about mephedrone. I don't visit PD much.)



I'm saying they will continue to do so if OD was split, and they forum won't "wither up" (which people seem to be afraid of, and I can understand as OD is a great forum), it will just be different.


----------



## phatass

I think it's a good idea because maybe the majority of the questions here are about opiates... so since ecstacy and cannabis have their own forums, i think an "opiate" section, would be just as frequented, and has just as much of a right to be, it might allow people to go more in depth to their questions about opiates.

It would also leave some space for the other pharmaceuticals and various stims in OD, which is often boggled down by opiate questions...

It would also ease the traffic, hence the mod work on the two different forums.
I think it's a great idea!


----------



## MyExcuse

*please split it up*

I have nothing against the copious discussion of opiates on OD however there are many more deserving topics to be discussed that often go overlooked and buried due to the flood of posts concerning opiates.

I believe if the opiates had their own forum, much more would come out of OD than the same posts that seem to get reiterated over and over (opiates are pretty generic drugs so the same questions do tend to get asked repeatedly).

Just my $0.02


----------



## MemphisX3

I think having amotjer forum devoted to ppowyes would split the xpmmumity too much



That's. Why. They have opioihiles


Just my .02


----------



## monstanoodle

I like the Uppers and Downers idea


----------



## Shambles

johanneschimpo said:


> (Well, sometimes. Sometimes they are in PD, right? At least methylone, I don't know about mephedrone. I don't visit PD much.)



Discussions on meph, M1 (and B1 and many others) can be found in PD, OD and especially EADD (and also many others) at the moment. Where these drugs can finally rest their weary heads and find a place to call home is still slightly debatable. I would suggest they all belong in OD as things stand.



johanneschimpo said:


> I propose a compromise: give mephedrone its own forum, let bob loblaw mod it, and leave OD intact. How about that?







MyExcuse said:


> I have nothing against the copious discussion of opiates on OD however there are many more deserving topics to be discussed that often go overlooked and buried due to the flood of posts concerning opiates.
> 
> I believe if the opiates had their own forum, much more would come out of OD than the same posts that seem to get reiterated over and over (opiates are pretty generic drugs so the same questions do tend to get asked repeatedly).
> 
> Just my $0.02



Fine tuppence it is too you have there 

The idea that OD (as in _other_ drugs) will be discussed more and in further detail appeals to me and I can see that being a possibility if OD were to be split.


----------



## tylerwashere

More than 50% of the discussion in OD is about opiate related topics anyway. I definitely think there should be an opiate section.

$.02


----------



## delta_9

I voted after only reading the OP but DAMN, I'm stunned by the poll resulsts already.

btw I voted no.


----------



## Captain.Heroin

delta_9 said:


> I voted after only reading the OP but DAMN, I'm stunned by the poll resulsts already.
> 
> btw I voted no.



What stuns you about them?

I'm personally a bit surprised more people aren't voting no; I actually thought it was really cool that blue light set up OD the way it is now.


----------



## tathra

Captain.Heroin said:


> I'm personally a bit surprised more people aren't voting no; I actually thought it was really cool that blue light set up OD the way it is now.



they're convinced that compartmentalization and fragmentation is better.  if it was up to them, there'd be a seperate forum on each and every drug known to man...  heaven forbid they have to see other threads on other subjects that might catch their interest and result in them clicking it and learning something new, or become interested in something else...

oh hey while we're splitting up the forums, i think Psychedelics Discussion should be split into Phenethylamines and Tryptamines, because they're totally different in their effects and pharmacology and therefore should be seperated from each other; and it should also be split so that Dissociatives go in their own seperate forum too.  8)


----------



## Captain.Heroin

tathra said:


> they're convinced that compartmentalization and fragmentation is better.  if it was up to them, there'd be a seperate forum on each and every drug known to man...  heaven forbid they have to see other threads on other subjects that might catch their interest and result in them clicking it and learning something new, or become interested in something else...
> 
> oh hey while we're splitting up the forums, i think Psychedelics Discussion should be split into Phenethylamines and Tryptamines, because they're totally different in their effects and pharmacology and therefore should be seperated from each other; and it should also be split so that Dissociatives go in their own seperate forum too.  8)



Ecstacy Discussion should be split up into MDA, MDMA, each different pipe (one for BZP, one for TFMPP, one for BZP+TFMPP, one for mCPP, and so on...)

SLR should be split up into SD (sex discussion), LD (love discussion), RD (relationship discussion)..and subforums of such...

It would be endless.


----------



## johanneschimpo

^ So you're saying tathra's point is valid, right? I agree; OD should remain intact.


----------



## tathra

i *really* like the idea of prefixes.  it would help with searches and research as well, and applied to more forums than just here.  actually shit, with the implementation of prefixes, some forums could even be done away with if traffic is slow (for example cannabis discussion could be put back in with psychedelics, and then you could just select to display only "cannabis" threads; not saying this SHOULD be done, just that it COULD be) or if consolidation would make things more efficient

oh and for the record, anything with a methylenedioxy ring (methylone, butylone, mbdb, etc; i think i saw a methylone thread in here once recently and thought 'wtf?!') should go in ecstasy discussion, not here.  i think pipes fit better here than ED or PD, as do serotonergic amphetamines (mephedrone, pma, iap, etc); everything thats in a _pressed pill_ goes in ED by default, but when discussing the chemicals seperately they're more OD stuff.  also synthetic cannabinoids (JWH series and whatever the other ones are) belong in CD, not here.


----------



## Captain.Heroin

johanneschimpo said:


> ^ So you're saying tathra's point is valid, right? I agree; OD should remain intact.



Yes I voted no likewise.

Everyone can view how we all voted just click on the #'s.


----------



## ArtVandalay

I vote No. 

Keep OD alive- don't split us up!


----------



## BigTurkey

I feel like opiates make up such a large part of the OD post count that the original OD forum would become stagnant without these posts.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

Split that shit like East and West Germany circa 1945!





			
				johanneschimpobach said:
			
		

> I propose a compromise: give mephedrone its own forum, let bob loblaw mod it, and leave OD intact. How about that?



Oh hell yeah, bro!


----------



## fairnymph

Absolutely. It's really a very distinct class of drugs and heavily discussed. Many opiate users - regulars/addicts especially - don't use any other drugs much, either, so we don't care about the other drugs. It'd be easier to just see and discuss what is relevant to that group in a Opiate-only forum.


----------



## qnibb

Of course it should be split up, the more specific a thread the better.


----------



## rollingrainbow

*theres should be an opiate disscussion
and a stimulate discussion!
and then other drug discussion*


----------



## HighonLife

it appears i am in the minority as far as not splitting up OD.

having said that i am one of these people who only particularly care about opiates but i just kinda liked OD the way it was. plus im one of those if it aint broke, dont fix it, kind of fellas

anyways, since we are taking suggestions
*MODS: can we please amend the rules so that there can be unlimited drug discussion in the social.
everyone in there uses drugs and whenever it is talked about why it is we cant discuss drugs in the social the answer always is that is what the rest of OD is for but that isnt always true. OD is for good/well thought out questions in regards to certain drugs. 

drug discussion in the social is, well, social drug talk. not questions and damn sure not something that warrants its own thread. i dunno just an idea i would like to throw out there as long as we are takin suggestions  *

EDIT: figures.......... after the above post an hour ago i just got busted for talkin bout drugs in the social. it was two posts. i was talkin to someone else who did two posts n we got our stuff deleted. 

also as a suggestion is regards to ^this for the mods is have the rules apply evenly to everyone. small amounts of drug talk slide by in the social when a mod is participating in the discussion but if not then the mods crack down harder n try to make an example/wield the modstick, you guys may not wanna look into yourselfs but go back n check the threads. if a mod is talkin drugs then the discussion will go on for a little while. if it is two non mods or non BL crew then your window of drug discussion opportunity is much smaller. 

mods must lead by example or whatever they say is gonna get ignored.


Just some food for thought Mods


----------



## Fuzati

rollingrainbow said:


> *theres should be an opiate disscussion
> and a stimulate discussion!
> and then other drug discussion*



And what drugs would you talk about in the "other drugs discussion"?

And *split that shit up!*


----------



## tylerwashere

When is the decision going to be made?


----------



## switchy85

I personally like the idea of splitting it between uppers and downers if it's going to be slit at all. It just seems to make sense to me. As it is now OD seems like it is for "hard" drugs but makes no distinction between coke, heroin, etc. 

I am kinda used to it the current way, though. So I really don't feel strongly one way or another.


----------



## GSpot

opiate discussion
stim discussion
benzo discussion
merge other drugs with basic drug discussion (no od confusion)
Maybe a RC discussion

That cover 99% of discussions along with the existing forums


----------



## Cosmic Charlie

stims and benzos and others will belong to  *Those Drugs * 

And *Opiate Discussion * will be the only OD left


----------



## AMTDan

I think a split would be for the best. Sometimes its hard to find non-opiate information as those threads tend to get pushed down real fast. 

Frankly there is more traffic here just from opiates than there is in the ecstasy forums


----------



## CounTerOrdeR

Almost 75% for splitting it up! I voted no. Ive been readin these forums since i was like 14-15(6-7 years now) and really OD is 90% the reason i come here. Actually idk if OD was around 6-7 years ago but anyway.. Its the best forum here so why mess it up. Opiates only would be boring imo, and i dont know if it would be worth visiting everyday or 2 as the majority of threads would likely be very similar, i guess i like the variety in OD as it is.

Having said that id rather see a Stimulant/Downer split if there was one. Big thing is drug combos though... would those all get thrown into BDD 'kuz if that was the case might as well throw everything into BDD/ADD. *shrugs I just say leave it be, it rocks.


----------



## blznlow

I feel that there are enough opiate threads to be its own forum but i also like logging into OD and learning about benzos etc because a lot of us do not just use opiates i would guess a good number of us use both and people in recovery from opiates are almost always on a benzo as well as a program with subs or methadone etc..


----------



## tathra

it seems like the majority of people who are for the split are relatively new.  is this because the more seasoned members have gotten used to the way things are and dont want to see it change, or is there something more to it, like seeing the value in having a lot of different information on various subjects right in front of you?

also, is there any word on whether or not we'll get an implementation of prefixes, or is the whole issue just dead in the water?

obviously some sort of improvement is needed, because the issue of splitting OD seems to come up on a regular basis.  something should definitely be done, but further fragmentation isnt the answer

perhaps a way to make the prefixes not so damn obvious and ugly would be if they could be implimented somehow with the post icons.  this would certainly take more work, but it would make the prefixes nice on the eyes, and quite elegant really


----------



## Bell Ringer

*Hell No*

Many people who post on OD are/were poly-drug users.  Have a question about speedballs?  Where would that fit in?  Use dope everyday and have a question about mixing it with amphetamines? well ?  

I could go on but basically many people have knowledge that covers the full OD spectrum.  Splitting OD would just create 2 closely related forums that overlap and decrease the overall audience of both forums.  That would decrease the spread of information as people would never read threads that may help them or that they may otherwise contribute to.

*Splitting OD would be a very unwise decision.*


----------



## johanneschimpo

tathra said:


> it seems like the majority of people who are for the split are relatively new.  is this because the more seasoned members have gotten used to the way things are and dont want to see it change, or is there something more to it, like seeing the value in having a lot of different information on various subjects right in front of you?


I figure more seasoned members know more about/whats best for the forum.

On that note, staff/crew votes make up about 3.5% of the "yes" and 20% of the a"no" vote. So, people affiliated with BL, who have insight about how it runs on the inside, overwhelmingly are against the split. [Hows that for stats on the votes?]


----------



## BaybeX

As a regular of OD and an opiate-addict.. 
I usually open more threads that are not opiate related to further educate myself on those drugs.  
Of course, I read threads on opiates and help when I can but I would rather see a fair mix of opiate and non-opiate related threads than just opiate.

To be quite honest, I highly doubt I'd spend very much time at all in a strictly opiate based forum.  
Of course, that is just my opinion.. but I'd assume most OD regulars would agree.


----------



## Z Y G G Y

I don't really go by forum, but mostly choose the New Posts option. And if a title seems interesting I click on it and yes I am mostly interested in opiates so BL having an opiate forum would mean I'd finally have my own place.


----------



## tathra

johanneschimpo said:


> I figure more seasoned members know more about/whats best for the forum.
> 
> On that note, staff/crew votes make up about 3.5% of the "yes" and 20% of the a"no" vote. So, people affiliated with BL, who have insight about how it runs on the inside, overwhelmingly are against the split. [Hows that for stats on the votes?]



yeah thats my take on it too, especially with what the staff/crew say; having been involved in the moderation, management, politics, and other behind-the-scenes stuff, it gives a much better understanding of the issue, as well as a better idea of what would improve or degrade the forums

it was more a rhetorical question, with the answers meant to help all the "yes" voters understand why, despite overwhelming votes to split, nothing is going to come from it


----------



## Bell Ringer

*Opiates or Opioids?*



MyExcuse said:


> I have nothing against the copious discussion of opiates on OD however there are many more deserving topics to be discussed that often go overlooked and buried due to the flood of posts concerning opiates.
> 
> I believe if the opiates had their own forum, much more would come out of OD than the same posts that seem to get reiterated over and over (opiates are pretty generic drugs so the same questions do tend to get asked repeatedly).
> 
> Just my $0.02



This post is not directed at you in particular​Opiates *are* complex, although I can only think of four that are CNS active,  maybe some questions just need to be moved to DB.  Opioids, semi-synthetics and synthetics, I would not dare try to guess how many exist and how many of those are CNS active.  Out of the CNS active ones how many have any recreational or therapeutic value?  A shitload.  

How do they interact with other substances (not just what are commonly considered drugs)?  It depends, so many factor involved.  Tramadol is an opioid it also acts as a SNRI.  

Opiates are not generic, some questions about them may be.

If you were to include semi-synthetics and synthetics, take a look at Demerol, note it's structure and side effects.  Then take a look at atropine.  After that compare all three to morphine.

If there are to many base post in OD then they ought to be moved to BD, but a basic question may yield a complex, enlightening conversation. * If* the problem you described really is a problem than heavier moderation is the best solution.  

Again, since I see this so often *the term opiate is NOT interchangeable with the term opioid. *


----------



## johanneschimpo

^ Right, but you know what they mean. 
"Splitting opiate discussion off from OD = "Splitting *opioid* discussion off from OD." 
So, opiates/opioids would be in one forum, everything else that's currently covered in OD would stay there.

There are many inherent problems with that split - the main one being that so many opiate/opioid questions are polydrug questions, about interactions, or from people who use _other_ drugs as well. So threads like that would need to go to OD anyway. In the end, something like half the opiate/opioid questions would fit better in OD, and a forum for just opiates/opioids wouldn't provide any real advantage.


----------



## sixpartseven

tathra said:


> also, is there any word on whether or not we'll get an implementation of prefixes, or is the whole issue just dead in the water?



Definitely not dead in the water. Far from it, in fact.

If I had to speculate, I would say we could almost definitely count on this being implemented, regardless of whether OD is split or not. I'm not promising anything, but it's looking good.

I'll post a more comprehensive post in the morning, responding to all the recent posts. I have to get some sleep for now, though.


----------



## tathra

some small, but probably quite obvious, suggestions

thread prefixes update


> Settings in Admin CP
> 
> *Thread Prefix required: Users have to select a thread prefix for their threads. You can select this globally for all forums or on a per forum basis.*
> *Show Thread Prefixes in extra column* or in front of the thread title in the same column
> Alignment of the prefixes (if 'Show in extra column' is enabled): Align left, align right, center
> Show Prefix in 'Last Post' column
> Allow Thread Prefix search: If enabled, the prefixes of all forums the user has access to will be grouped in a list and displayed in the search engine.



requiring prefixes upon starting a new thread would definitely be needed, to help ease the work mods have to do
displaying them in an extra column might make things tidier and easier on the eyes, possibly using something like the post icon pictures


----------



## Captain.Heroin

HighonLife said:


> anyways, since we are taking suggestions
> *MODS: can we please amend the rules so that there can be unlimited drug discussion in the social.
> everyone in there uses drugs and whenever it is talked about why it is we cant discuss drugs in the social the answer always is that is what the rest of OD is for but that isnt always true. OD is for good/well thought out questions in regards to certain drugs.
> 
> drug discussion in the social is, well, social drug talk. not questions and damn sure not something that warrants its own thread. i dunno just an idea i would like to throw out there as long as we are takin suggestions  *
> 
> EDIT: figures.......... after the above post an hour ago i just got busted for talkin bout drugs in the social. it was two posts. i was talkin to someone else who did two posts n we got our stuff deleted.
> 
> also as a suggestion is regards to ^this for the mods is have the rules apply evenly to everyone. small amounts of drug talk slide by in the social when a mod is participating in the discussion but if not then the mods crack down harder n try to make an example/wield the modstick, you guys may not wanna look into yourselfs but go back n check the threads. if a mod is talkin drugs then the discussion will go on for a little while. if it is two non mods or non BL crew then your window of drug discussion opportunity is much smaller.
> 
> mods must lead by example or whatever they say is gonna get ignored.
> 
> 
> Just some food for thought Mods



Take this up in the OD Social, not this thread.


----------



## HighonLife

^ i have taken it up in the social and i am told to leave if i dont like it

i guess i could PM the administrators but i have been tryin to just throw the idea out there n just see if i have any support or if others feel the same way ya know? if a bunch of people wanna see some change then it wont look like i am just bein a whiney little bitch ( which i may or may not be but is besides the point  )


----------



## l0ckd0wn

Captain.Heroin said:


> _Captain.Heroin's elegant response..._



Captain.Heroin made me want to change my vote:  Keep OD as it is now.  Sorry, felt compelled to change it after reading this.

P.S.
I figured after 8 pages that there is probably going to be a change.  I understand, still felt compelled to say something as his response changed my view.


----------



## phr

tathra said:


> some small, but probably quite obvious, suggestions
> 
> thread prefixes update
> 
> 
> requiring prefixes upon starting a new thread would definitely be needed, to help ease the work mods have to do
> displaying them in an extra column might make things tidier and easier on the eyes, possibly using something like the post icon pictures


Whether users have the ability to set prefixes has to be discussed more. When we first discussed prefixes, quite a bit before the OD/ODD split discussion we're having now, we initially went along with the idea that they would be mod assigned, at least for a bit of time right after implementation. We also have to discuss which prefixes we'll use, how they'll be displayed(as you mentioned), etc.

Barring any technical issues it looks like OD will be getting prefixes. From what I've seen, all of the staff directly involved at least, are for it. I don't have a timetable for when it'll be done. It could be with a split or with out it. There still needs to be a conclusion on that.

Right now the next step is to move this split discussion to the Support forum and let it run there for a week or so. 6/7 said he's on that, so we'll just go from there.


----------



## CounTerOrdeR

Bell Ringer said:


> Many people who post on OD are/were poly-drug users.  Have a question about speedballs?  Where would that fit in?  Use dope everyday and have a question about mixing it with amphetamines? well ?
> 
> I could go on but basically many people have knowledge that covers the full OD spectrum.  Splitting OD would just create 2 closely related forums that overlap and decrease the overall audience of both forums.  That would decrease the spread of information as people would never read threads that may help them or that they may otherwise contribute to.
> 
> *Splitting OD would be a very unwise decision.*




Gotta second this.


----------



## Bell Ringer

*Please Read the Thread Before you Vote*



l0ckd0wn said:


> Captain.Heroin made me want to change my vote:  Keep OD as it is now.  Sorry, felt compelled to change it after reading this.
> 
> P.S.
> I figured after 8 pages that there is probably going to be a change.  I understand, still felt compelled to say something as his response changed my view.



And Please Vote No.​
Splitting OD would decrease the quality and flow of information.  So many knowledgeable people would either post less, leave, or focus on one of the two potential forums.  
It will cause stagnation.​
IMO OD is fine they way it is but if I am in the minority on that opinion than the answer is not to split OD but to add more moderators, or create Jr. Mod. position that would give Jr. Mods the ability to move post to DB and whatever else is necessary but nothing more (I don't see why they would need a new title although I think for a title is a good idea because it would lighten the workload of upper level mods).  There could be strict rules on if/what they could handle and what they must relay and to whom.  Basically the position would filter out a lot of noise.  Or the current mods could be more trigger happy but that is the wrong way to go.


----------



## Weeman0896

Yes, Opium products (pain killers, heroin, etc.) are a very common discussion, realy, from what I've seen, its most of the discussion in OD, so yes I think it has a right to be split into a specialized sub-section of its own.


----------



## bagochina

I say leave it but everything eventually evolves...

Sooner or later 'opiate discussion' will be split into opiate subforms, heroin, oxycodone, methadone, buprenorphine, etc.  There are already ALOT of different forums on this site I suppose one more wont hurt or help.

Shrug.

Peace,
Seedless

I voted NO


----------



## rolls

If you split up the forums then the other drugs forum will become neglected by the opiate users as they will only read the opiate forum, this can be seen as a disadvantage. However you could argue the same about every section on this forum, I am missing out on the weed and the ecstasy discussion as I read OD mainly and Im sure theres threads there that I could could add valuable discussion to, I just don't see them.

I think it would be a good idea to split them, Im sure most OD users would read both forums anyway. A majority of users on this website would read more than ONE section on this forum.

For example I read OD, Aus DD and basic/advanced, so adding one more is no big deal.


----------



## tathra

phrozen said:


> Whether users have the ability to set prefixes has to be discussed more. When we first discussed prefixes, quite a bit before the OD/ODD split discussion we're having now, we initially went along with the idea that they would be mod assigned, at least for a bit of time right after implementation.



the only issue with this is that OD is a high-traffic forum, and having it to where moderators set prefixes would turn whats already a lot of work into even more, and possibly it would be the same as if new threads had to be approved by moderators (to set the prefix), which would drastically slow down the forum.  the idea of having new threads require moderator approval was tossed around a few times years ago, to increase the quality of threads and get rid of all reposts and questions that could easily be answered by utfse, but it was always deemed more trouble and work than it was worth.



Bell Ringer said:


> OD is fine they way it is but if I am in the minority on that opinion than the answer is not to split OD but to add more moderators, or create Jr. Mod. position that would give Jr. Mods the ability to move post to DB and whatever else is necessary but nothing more (I don't see why they would need a new title although I think for a title is a good idea because it would lighten the workload of upper level mods). There could be strict rules on if/what they could handle and what they must relay and to whom. Basically the position would filter out a lot of noise. Or the current mods could be more trigger happy



the mods definitely need to be more 'trigger happy' to increase the quality of the forum.  except its sometimes difficult to do this while staying "nice."  staying respectful is easy, but the current od crew seems to be waaay too nice.  but really, that has nothing to do with whether or not the forum needs to be split...
i'm actually kind of shocked that there's 5 active moderators for OD; 4 was always plenty, and we even got by at times with 3, so with how things are now, there are more than enough moderators.

however if more people were needed to help out, especially in the event that moderators have to set prefixes, perhaps the "Bluelight Crew", particularly former OD mods, could volunteer to do this and to help in any way they can.

one last thing:  perhaps there should be a poll to find out, if OD is split, how many people will only visit one of the two new forums, instead of both.  i'm not the only person who thinks that a lot of knowledgeable people will only visit one or the other, but when i brought this up, i was quickly told "there's no proof of that [so stfu and stop speaking for anyone but yourself]."  since neither side of this specific point has any hard data, i believe a poll would be useful to further establishing the pros/cons of a split

i do realize it might be pointless to post this here, because the issue will be brought up and discussed in Support, but its easier to just get my thoughts/suggestions out here, now, and then repost them in the new thread once it is created in Support... or if this one just gets sent there then i've already got it posted...


----------



## phr

> the only issue with this is that OD is a high-traffic forum, and having it to where moderators set prefixes would turn whats already a lot of work into even more, and possibly it would be the same as if new threads had to be approved by moderators (to set the prefix), which would drastically slow down the forum. the idea of having new threads require moderator approval was tossed around a few times years ago, to increase the quality of threads and get rid of all reposts and questions that could easily be answered by utfse, but it was always deemed more trouble and work than it was worth.


Yes, that's the drawback. But mods are supposed to be checking out all of the threads to begin with, especially if they get a lot of views/replies. So it shouldn't be _that_ much more work.
The only concern about users setting their own prefix is whether one is required to start a new thread and whether they'd choose the right one. Of course we could just ask users to report threads that should have prefixes or that have the wrong one.
Like I said though, it needs to be discussed more. For what it's worth, I'm now leaning towards allowing users to set their own prefix. We could always change it if it doesn't work out.


----------



## phr

---> Support

We'll leave it here for a week or so for more discussion. Then we'll decide.


----------



## delta_9

Captain.Heroin said:


> What stuns you about them?
> 
> I'm personally a bit surprised more people aren't voting no; I actually thought it was really cool that blue light set up OD the way it is now.



I'm just surprised "yes" got so many more votes is all.(The difference is even greater since I first posted)
I like the way OD is set up now too.  A new forum also means new staff to recruit.


----------



## Bell Ringer

*Opioid users and ex-users very well may be the most knowledgeable people on OD but*



phrozen said:


> The main issue, imo, is what will happen to the non-opiate forum, specifically with post/thread quality. It's no secret that a lot of us are only interested in opiates. And it could be argued that the most knowledgeable users are those just interested in opiates. So what happens to the non-opiate forum all those people stop browsing? Of course you could argue that those people already only click on opiate threads to begin with... But personally I don't buy that. Non-opiate threads are bound to catch your eye -with their title, # of replies, # of views, the thread starter, or the last person to reply. So you may come here for opiates, but chances are you'll drop by a few other threads. And by doing that you'll either learn something, or hopefully you'll post and help someone else out.
> 
> Speaking just for myself, I know I wouldn't have learned as much as I did about non-opiates if there was dedicated opiate forum here.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, the issue of how that forum will be staffed comes up, but that will be discussed out of public if this goes through.



I have studied, used, and abused opioids for 10 out of they 26 years, to this day I do not understand how I am still alive.  I recently kicked methadone and have basically no tolerance. I do occasionally take Vicodin (1/2 a pill or 1) for pain.  So I am pretty knowledgeable on opiates/opioids.  However...

An opioid only forum would bore the hell out of me.  I am sure that I would enjoy some of the threads but why even bother?  The majority of the threads would just be déjà vu all over again.  I think many other people with extensive knowledge and experience with opioids feel the same way.

*Also I have seen it suggest to split OD into a stimulant forum and a depressant forum but consider how confusing that would be.  Some drugs have both properties and there are CNS active opioids that are stimulants.*


----------



## pixplzthx

I think that the vast scope of opiates in general make a good case for splitting Opiates into their own category.

Let's face it, some people want to read about : insert drug here :.  With the way OD is set-up now, you can go for pages (or search!) before you find useful, relevant information.

I think that splitting out Opiates will make it easier to focus the necessary harm reduction to the appropriate (ab)users.


----------



## MistaJeff

maybe make a stimulant section and a depressant section.


----------



## Grumpy_Eel

Im pro split. I only take opiates, i only post in opiate related threads, i only have knowledge and words of wisdom to impart to opiate users. Its ridiculous that ecstasy and marijuana have their own forums, but opiates, which are one of the most widely used substances, are crowded in with stimulants and all kinds of random shit. 

I hate having to scroll through dozens of threads that are useless to me, and that I have nothing positive to add to as well. I would defintely contribute more if it were easier to find opiate related threads, since thats the only thing that interests me. 

Split them.


----------



## herowinn3r

the only forum i come to is other drugs because all i care about is opiates. while looking for opiate threads i see shit about crack and meth and valium. what the fuck? fuck that. make an opiate section plz


----------



## nervousone

there are already other websites with forums based entirely on opiates...

keep it the same


----------



## Moonmixer

I did a lil' math.

Out of all the threads that are about drugs (closed or open) that have not been moved, on the front page of OD, as of a couple minutes ago when I counted them.

48% are about opiates or have opiates as a focus. (including two "mega threads")

52% are about all other drugs.


Split? I think so. 

Course that doesn't count traffic in an EXTREMELY reliable way, just an idea.


EDIT: Also, people keep saying that splitting the forum would take users away from each. I don't really think this would be drastic in any way. I have found myself browsing the farking steroids forum before, and I have never taken steroids nor do I have any intention to.


----------



## Philoscybin

Split it up, but call it "opioid discussion", not "opiate".


----------



## dokomo

I voted to keep it the same. 

I don't mean to discount or devalue newer members or anything, but I'd be interested to see the results of the poll weighted with post counts or membership date or something like that.

 This isnt true for everyone of course, but I think that the more time you spend in OD, the less you will want it split up. My drugs of choice are opioids and I know the most about them, but I help out with many other topics that come up as well, and its nice to have them all grouped together. I know that for me, it will be harder to contribute when things are split up and two seperate forums have to be opened and monitored and whatnot.


----------



## Bomboclat

I voted for _Split it - but in a different way (explain in post) _

I think if OD were split off it should be split like how N&SAE is split. You would open up OD and have the choice to go into either Opiate Discussion, or "Others" discussion.


----------



## -Guido-

Split it up.  All the Meth heads will ensure the original forum keeps moving.


----------



## LiLCv2

This should have been done years ago, yes split it up.


----------



## Moonmixer

Thizzerfershizzer said:


> I voted for _Split it - but in a different way (explain in post) _
> 
> I think if OD were split off it should be split like how N&SAE is split. You would open up OD and have the choice to go into either Opiate Discussion, or "Others" discussion.



Sounds great to me, as long as some split is made.


----------



## Pegasus

People are knowledgeable in all different fields, but may only access a certain part of the site regularly.  For example, if ED and PD were together with OD, I would be more inclined to give information and advice on these topics.  However, at the point in my life I am at now, my reason for coming on this site focuses on the drugs discussed in OD.

I *strongly oppose* a split on grounds of it limiting potential exposure and discussion of material.


----------



## JahRed24x

I never understood why bluelight.ru groups together basically all narcotics into "Other Drugs." 
Especially with opiates - BL really needs a Opiate Discussion forum seeing that about 80% of the threads in "Other Drugs" are about opiates/opioids... I would look at opiophile.org, they have a Awesome set up with their forums.


----------



## delphinen

I do think that opiates/opioids are very very related to downers, im talking obviously about benzodiazepines, so I think that if there is not enough threads to create an opiate forum, just as the admin or moderators thinks, a "downers and opiates" (or something like that, you know what I mean) should be created. 
Opiates/opioids and downers are almost strictly associated, I bet 9 of 10 opiates/opioids users take some downers to enhance them (benzos, barbiturates, alcohol, antihistamines, muscle relaxers, etc.).


----------



## johanneschimpo

delphinen said:


> Opiates/opioids and downers are almost strictly associated, I bet 9 of 10 opiates/opioids users take some downers to enhance them (benzos, barbiturates, alcohol, antihistamines, muscle relaxers, etc.).



That is the reason they need to stay together, not be split off.


----------



## MyExcuse

but if downers are being taken to *enhance* opiates, then that is still a topic relating primarily to the use of opiates.

There are a lot of "other" drugs and "other drugs" users. Opiates make up a large portion of those. I believe opiates DESERVE it's own forum.


----------



## Tony Yayo

opiate discussion definitely needs its own forum


----------



## CronicPain

I voted it should have its own, I found it odd that it didnt when i first got here.


Is there any way that OD can just have subcatagorys?


----------



## abracadabra girl

*Split "other drugs"*

Lumping opiates, amps, RCs, benzos, and more into one forum makes it rather unfocused. I'd like to at least see opiates split into their own forum since it seems at least 2/3 of OD posts are about opiates. For those of us who have zero interest in opiates it makes OD hard to peruse. Thanks for considering.


----------



## R2DAOB

i'd agree


----------



## zaborav

*Splitting Other Drugs*

Hear, hear! The space available seems plenty enough. It is SO difficult to find what you're looking for, even with the search facility. I look for benzos and get a huge page of threads discussing some weird chemical called Benzo Fury, which appears to have about as much in common with benzos as bananas have with pepper mills. Surely headings can be created to differentiate between stimulants, anxiolytics, opioid analgesics, hypnotics, and anti depressants/psychotics. That would still leave plenty of space for the treatment of less commonly discussed meds such as skeletal muscular relaxants which believe it or not I spent over an hour looking for the other day. I can't for the life of me find a vendor of cheap Wallace Carisoma (carisoprodol) anywhere nowadays and even if US Pharmacies shipped my way I wouldn't pay their thieving prices for such a cheap med. Anyway I think you get my point. Split 'others' into their categories and you'll have a neater board and many happier users.


----------



## TheLoveBandit

Hello, and welcome to BL :D

Have you met our search function?  I gave it a whirl with the keyword "Split" here in SUPPORT (though you could have chosen "Other Drugs", I suppose).  Here's what I found:

Why isn't there an Opium/Opiate/Opioid Forum?

Opinions Needed - Splitting Opiate Discussion Off From OD Into A New Forum

I suppose the SUPPORT mods will be merging these recent replies into one of those threads. 

To answer you question - it can be, but so far it hasn't been, and may not be.  But it could be.


----------



## abracadabra girl

TheLoveBandit said:


> Hello, and welcome to BL :D
> 
> Have you met our search function?  I gave it a whirl with the keyword "Split" here in SUPPORT (though you could have chosen "Other Drugs", I suppose).



I did search, for "Other drugs", and only found one thread which wasn't related to splitting.

Just read those other two threads, and they're mainly from the perspective of opiate aficionados who want a forum of their own. So let me rephrase my suggestion a different way. Can we have a stims-only forum? That would be just dandy.

I am not a fan of the policies at DF but one of the things I really love about it is that there's a separate forum for each type of drug. Who cares if a single forum isn't especially busy? If it's easier to find the information you want, and have discussions you're interested in, then it works for everyone.


----------



## fizzle

I think he meant searching *in* OD, not searching for "other drugs" here in Support.

*Merge*


----------



## delta_9

I just posted something here not 5 minutes ago and now it has vanished.
However the icon to the left of the thread says I still have a post here on 2-10-2011 (not this one.  This would technically be my 3rd post in this thread as I posted here when this was 1st started)
I'm very confused.

edit - yes the envelope icon to the left of the thread still says I have 3 posts. 8(


----------



## abracadabra girl

Damn the poll is closed so I can't vote. But the yes's are already overwhelming so I guess my vote isn't critical.


----------



## fizzle

delta_9 said:


> I just posted something here not 5 minutes ago and now it has vanished.
> However the icon to the left of the thread says I still have a post here on 2-10-2011 (not this one.  This would technically be my 3rd post in this thread as I posted here when this was 1st started)
> I'm very confused.
> 
> edit - yes the envelope icon to the left of the thread still says I have 3 posts. 8(



Odd, I dont see any deleted or UA'd things so it looks like the system just decided to eat your post... could have happened when I merged things I suppose.


----------



## Pegasus

zaborav said:


> Surely headings can be created to differentiate between stimulants, anxiolytics, opioid analgesics, hypnotics, and anti depressants/psychotics.



Erm...  We have these?  You just posted this today so you had to have seen them...


----------



## delta_9

fizzle said:


> Odd, I dont see any deleted or UA'd things so it looks like the system just decided to eat your post... could have happened when I merged things I suppose.



lol @ the system being hungry. 
I hope my post was tasty. :D


----------



## TheLoveBandit

fizzle said:


> I think he meant searching *in* OD, not searching for "other drugs" here in Support.
> 
> *Merge*



She was right, I meant searching in SUPPORT.  The split of stims as a suggestion was also had before in such discussions...I just forgot how many of the earlier threads on this had been pruned away.  My bad.


----------



## omg.anonymous

*absolutely, no question*

I think itsa no brainer.

It should absolutely have its own forum.

Thereby allowing people to better find what they are looking for; both users seeking opiate discussion AND users seeking other drug discussion- especially when I bet a lot of the OD seekers are/can get a bit frustrated that opiate discussion drowns out and completely takes over the OD forum.


I just joined today in fact, and while browsing I actually wondered why there wasnt a seperate forum for it, as that is my 'forum of interest'


----------



## omg.anonymous

JahRed24x said:


> I would look at opiophile.org, they have a Awesome set up with their forums.



Agreed. Definitely


----------



## TheAzo

Add an opiate discussion forum? We already have one, OD, Opiate Discussion. We need a forum for other drugs... 

But seriously, please, I strongly support making a new forum for opiates. It seems really crazy that one of the most common classes of recreational drug, and the class for which harm reduction is most important (due to the prevalence of IV use, and the lengths to which cravings drive users), doesn't have it's own forum. There's certainly enough opiate discussion to fill it's own forum.


----------



## Captain.Heroin

TheAzo said:


> Add an opiate discussion forum? We already have one, OD, Opiate Discussion. We need a forum for other drugs...
> 
> But seriously, please, I strongly support making a new forum for opiates. It seems really crazy that one of the most common classes of recreational drug, and the class for which harm reduction is most important (due to the prevalence of IV use, and the lengths to which cravings drive users), doesn't have it's own forum. There's certainly enough opiate discussion to fill it's own forum.



Yeah, but having a sub-forum, just for opiates, would be a very bad idea.  Why?

You'll have very basic posts like "can I snort this sub", "how many vicodins can I eat at once?", "What is this pill?" , "when can I take sub without going into precipitated WDs?" and many more self-serving questions coupled with other topics for opiate discussion.  

It won't be uniform, nor will it be easy to search through.  It would be like taking any opiate based topic from BDD, OD, ADD, DC, and TDS, an merging it into its own sub-forum.  How much sense would that make?  

You would have people who come into this "opiate sub-forum" only to discuss using/abusing drugs, without any empathy for people who are going to post a TDS-like thread in this "opiate sub-forum".  You will have basic, intermediate, and advanced topics intertwined with each other.  



JahRed24x said:


> I would look at opiophile.org, they have a Awesome set up with their forums.



If that's how you feel, go sign up for an account.


----------



## muvolution

took me a minute to figure out BL also. 
It isn't classed by drug type, but mostly by spiritual/ mental state. ie. for opiate users you can post in OD for harm reduction, TDS for support/ bad experiences, and a social or regional thread to stay up on what is happening around you. 

I think it works well, and if all threads got the correct prefixes (amps, stims, rc's, opiates, benzos, etc...) it would be even EASIER to navigate, but that is the people who start the threads problem - although maybe moderators would be able to add on these prefixes when the users don't.


----------



## abracadabra girl

Captain.Heroin said:


> Yeah, but having a sub-forum, just for opiates, would be a very bad idea.  Why?
> 
> You'll have very basic posts like "can I snort this sub", "how many vicodins can I eat at once?", "What is this pill?" , "when can I take sub without going into precipitated WDs?" and many more self-serving questions coupled with other topics for opiate discussion.
> 
> It won't be uniform, nor will it be easy to search through.  It would be like taking any opiate based topic from BDD, OD, ADD, DC, and TDS, an merging it into its own sub-forum.  How much sense would that make?
> 
> You would have people who come into this "opiate sub-forum" only to discuss using/abusing drugs, without any empathy for people who are going to post a TDS-like thread in this "opiate sub-forum".  You will have basic, intermediate, and advanced topics intertwined with each other.



Why do you think an opiate forum would would have more problems than the cannabis forum, ecstasy forum, etc.?


----------



## abracadabra girl

Captain.Heroin said:


> Yeah, but having a sub-forum, just for opiates, would be a very bad idea.  Why?
> 
> You'll have very basic posts like "can I snort this sub", "how many vicodins can I eat at once?", "What is this pill?" , "when can I take sub without going into precipitated WDs?" and many more self-serving questions coupled with other topics for opiate discussion.
> 
> It won't be uniform, nor will it be easy to search through.  It would be like taking any opiate based topic from BDD, OD, ADD, DC, and TDS, an merging it into its own sub-forum.  How much sense would that make?
> 
> You would have people who come into this "opiate sub-forum" only to discuss using/abusing drugs, without any empathy for people who are going to post a TDS-like thread in this "opiate sub-forum".  You will have basic, intermediate, and advanced topics intertwined with each other.



Why do you think an opiate forum would would have more problems than the cannabis forum, ecstasy forum, etc.?


----------



## abracadabra girl

muvolution said:


> took me a minute to figure out BL also.
> It isn't classed by drug type, but mostly by spiritual/ mental state. ie. for opiate users you can post in OD for harm reduction, TDS for support/ bad experiences, and a social or regional thread to stay up on what is happening around you.



This is an interesting way to look at it, and it might work just fine if the forum structure on the main page made it clear for new users that this is how it worked. But seeing "cannabis, ecstasy, steroids, psychedelics, other drugs" sure makes it seem like all other drug questions go in OD.


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## tathra

go to the bottom of the OD forum to the "prefixes" pulldown tab and select "opiates" or "heroin," and there you go, OD reduced to nothing but opiate threads!

problem solved.

read through this thread to find all the reasoning behind this decision.


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## abracadabra girl

^ Except what I want is to see all threads *except* opiates.


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## Captain.Heroin

abracadabra girl said:


> Why do you think an opiate forum would would have more problems than the cannabis forum, ecstasy forum, etc.?



Because there are many drugs that may act on opiate receptors, but they wouldn't be classified as a drug to be discussed in Other Drugs.  

What about Salvia?  Most people would say "it trips you out, put it in Psychedelic Drugs".  But it acts as a kappa opioid antagonist; wouldn't you discuss it in this theoretical "Opiate Discussion"?  

Ketamine also binds to mu opioid agonist receptors, although at high, fully anesthetic dosages.  

I think it would be infeasible to create an "Opiate Discussion" based upon what activates the opioid receptors in the brain.  

If you are to then say "OK, well, why not create one based on subjective effects?" - well then what's the point of an "Opiate Discussion" forum?  To house a special discussion forum for anything that feels like an opiate?  That could be everything, to some people, and very few things to others.  

How about for what reduces pain?  That is also too many drugs; there are many substances which reduce pain, and what will reduce pain will vary amongst individuals (in Other Drugs there is a thread about the idea that amphetamine is a pain reliever for someone who created the thread).  

So as to avoid creating a forum which is too broad in nature, what would you do?  Would you limit "Opiate Discussion" to the opium alkaloids (codeine, morphine, thebaine, oripavine)?  Would you also include the semisynthetic derivatives (heroin, DHC, hydrocodone, oxycodone, hydromorphone, oxymorphone, nicomorphine)?  

Let's imagine that you were to say "Yes, that's all the opiates I've ever used, do that!" - well, where would that leave the fully synthetic opioids (fentanyl, meperidine, methadone)?  Where would that leave buprenorphine?  Where would that leave tramadol, or tapentadol?  Where would that leave freaks of nature such as lefetamine (that sounds like a lot of fun doesn't it)?

This is only one issue with creating such a sub-forum.  There are a lot more what-if's that I could think up of, I just don't have time to type anymore right now.


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## abracadabra girl

Captain.Heroin said:


> Because there are many drugs that may act on opiate receptors, but they wouldn't be classified as a drug to be discussed in Other Drugs.
> 
> ...
> 
> So as to avoid creating a forum which is too broad in nature, what would you do?



Well, what I'd do is create forums for identifiable classes of drugs such as psychedelics, amphetamines, dissociatives, (and, I thought, opiates, but maybe I'm wrong) and then leave "other drugs" for the unclassifiable ones.

72% of voters agree on splitting but management obviously isn't going to do it, so I don't really see the point in making up all these bullshit reasons. Just close the thread already.


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## Jabberwocky

^whoa, ease up, the thread is here for a reason.  this is a perpetual discussion so it acts as one of the reference points when the issue is raised.  

you haven't exactly brought up any compelling reasons as to why it should be split either.  and you're right that it ultimately comes down to us running OD whether we want to split it or not.  just because our bullshit "reasons" don't line up with your idealistic views on how the thread should be run is no reason to dismiss everything we're saying.  there are compelling reasons on either side of the fence and the mods running the forum don't want to split the forum at this point in time.  



			
				tathra said:
			
		

> go to the bottom of the OD forum to the "prefixes" pulldown tab and select "opiates" or "heroin," and there you go, OD reduced to nothing but opiate threads!
> 
> problem solved
> 
> read through this thread to find all the reasoning behind this decision.



ding ding ding!  i think this is even mentioned somewhere throughout this discussion.  we should probably mention this in the thread that explains the Prefixes (not that anyone bothers to read them) because i have a feeling we didn't mention it in there.




> ^ Except what I want is to see all threads *except* opiates.



concentrate on readings threads of one class at a time.  



> But seeing "cannabis, ecstasy, steroids, psychedelics, other drugs" sure makes it seem like all other drug questions go in OD.



it may appear that way but had you bothered to read any forum descriptions you'll find it's quite different.  each forum is distinguished from another in the best conclusive way we've produced to date.  staff have been trying to resolve the issues brought up about distinguishing the differences in forums for those new to the board, we're not oblivious to it.



			
				 Other Drugs Description said:
			
		

> Intermediate level, harm reduction focused discussion (including pharmacology, dependence issues, avoiding side effects, etc.) about drugs that aren't covered in other forums. Please use ADD or BDD for more advanced or basic topics.


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## abracadabra girl

leftwing said:


> just because our bullshit "reasons" don't line up with your idealistic views on how the thread should be run is no reason to dismiss everything we're saying.




Do you really agree, as Capt Heroin just said, that salvia and ketamine users might consider those drugs opiates and post questions about them in an opiate forum? That sounds so ridiculous to me that it makes me feel insulted, as though I'm being bullshitted, and I give up on ever having a meeting of the minds. And if I'm wrong and users of those drugs actually do consider them opiates, then obviously I'm far enough out of the loop that I have no business discussing the subject either. So I bow out.




leftwing said:


> there are compelling reasons on either side of the fence and the mods running the forum don't want to split the forum at this point in time.



Then why bother having a poll? The votes were apparently overwhelmingly positive.






leftwing said:


> it may appear that way but had you bothered to read any forum descriptions you'll find it's quite different.  each forum is distinguished from another in the best conclusive way we've produced to date.  staff have been trying to resolve the issues brought up about distinguishing the differences in forums for those new to the board, we're not oblivious to it.



I've read the forum descriptions. To repeat my previous suggestion, you can't have an arrangement which leads to an obvious conclusion and then put in the fine print that it really works completely differently. If the forums were arranged in a logical manner then the forum descriptions would be almost redundant, not a necessity to understanding how things work.


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## Jabberwocky

no i don't agree with that bit that captain suggested.  i think captain should put down the bong 

the poll was added to give a quick to view visual representation of peoples thoughts.

i think creating all those individual forums will only split up discussion and a limited exposure to topics as has been stated and restated.  which raises where do all the drug combination threads go?  in their own forum?  or the dominant drugs' forum?  <== rhetorical but if you've got suggestions then i'm all ears.


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## abracadabra girl

leftwing said:


> no i don't agree with that bit that captain suggested.  i think captain should put down the bong
> 
> the poll was added to give a quick to view visual representation of peoples thoughts.
> 
> i think creating all those individual forums will only split up discussion and a limited exposure to topics as has been stated and restated.  which raises where do all the drug combination threads go?  in their own forum?  or the dominant drugs' forum?  <== rhetorical but if you've got suggestions then i'm all ears.



Thank you, I truly do appreciate reasoned discussion.

Before I go spouting off my own opinions, can you explain to me why it's deemed beneficial for a hypothetical amphetamine user to be exposed to topics such as opiates and benzos, but it's okay for a cannabis, ecstasy, steroid, or psychedelic drug user not to have to be exposed to a variety of other unrelated drug topics whilst discussing their own DOC? 

Personally I consider a limited exposure (or, I'd call it, focussed discussion) to be a good thing when researching or discussing a focussed subject.

Drug combinations probably belong in BDD? Just a quick guess. Honestly they can go in whatever forum you like as long as the organizational structure makes it easy for users to tell where they go. Otherwise you've got a mess.

Related question, where should I put a thread about combining LSD and oxy right now? Psychedelics or OD? Or BDD?

Long story short, I don't understand why cannabis, ecstasy, steroids, and psychedelics as a class merit a separate (but equal?) forum while other classes don't. That reasoning would be helpful to know.


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## Jabberwocky

Ecstasy Discussion is the cornerstone forum of bluelight hence it's own forum.  see here for a little info on the origins of bluelight

i'm not aware of how each of the forums were decided and added on along the way, there's likely a myriad of reasons behind each forum and their development.  a long standing admin or someone with a better knowledge on that subject should be able to help fill in the pieces.  though a rough thought on my behalf would be because each of those classes of drugs involve many different substrates, opening up a wide(r) arena for discussion than for something like amphetamines.

re : your question on the LSD and oxy combo it depends on the context.  
eg; if you were tripping and wanted to take the oxy during your trip or on the comedown then LSD is the dominant drug and would be suitable to PD. 
if you were asking the effects combined it could go in either PD or BDD.  
you're high on oxy all day and want to trip at night?  PD.  
etc

it will also come down to the discretion of the individual moderate.  there's also homeless threads forum if you're still unsure


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## Jabberwocky

As leftwing pointed, out a lot of the way Bluelight is set up has to do with its history of starting out with a primary focus on ecstasy and having added other content as needs arised.



			
				abracadabra girl said:
			
		

> Before I go spouting off my own opinions, can you explain to me why it's deemed beneficial for a hypothetical amphetamine user to be exposed to topics such as opiates and benzos, but it's okay for a cannabis, ecstasy, steroid, or psychedelic drug user not to have to be exposed to a variety of other unrelated drug topics whilst discussing their own DOC?
> 
> Personally I consider a limited exposure (or, I'd call it, focussed discussion) to be a good thing when researching or discussing a focussed subject.
> 
> Drug combinations probably belong in BDD? Just a quick guess. Honestly they can go in whatever forum you like as long as the organizational structure makes it easy for users to tell where they go. Otherwise you've got a mess.
> 
> Related question, where should I put a thread about combining LSD and oxy right now? Psychedelics or OD? Or BDD?
> 
> Long story short, I don't understand why cannabis, ecstasy, steroids, and psychedelics as a class merit a separate (but equal?) forum while other classes don't. That reasoning would be helpful to know.


 A historical argument for keeping OD intact has been that OD members are primarily poly drug users. Even if that turns out to not be true I don't think OD participants are naive to drugs other than their DOC or that seeking to maintain a unawareness of drugs beyond one's DOC would be a good HR strategy.

A call for an uncluttered area for specific drugs is understandable but at some point a left over miscellany group will still be left. Distinct forums for stimulants, opiates, etc may happen some day. Its just not something that is felt to be imperative/desirable at this time by the Focus Forum staff. It is not a closed issue for all time. Categories on Bluelight are often about keeping things in manageable chunks. It isn't really about the relative importance of different categories. 

Thanks for explaining your opinions and frustrations about all this abracadabra girl.


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## Captain.Heroin

*Why Other Drugs is best left as is...*

Here is a private message I sent a user when they asked me the following, I replied with what's below the quote box.  



> I just wanted to ask this question out of curiosity. And wondering why we had to use the "Other Drugs" forum. "Other drugs" sounds like a duster/paint/nitrous/inhalant abusing thread.



lol

Actually Other Drugs has a huge spectrum. There is also a reason why we specifically have only separated out MDA/MDMA in the ED forum, cannabis and cannabinoids (synthetic or natural) in the CD forum, steroids, hormones, and bodybuilding supplements and other related stuff in the SD forum, and the psychedelic drugs for PD. There are users of many different kinds of drugs. However, for whatever reason have you, ignoring the legal toxins tobacco and ethanol (hands down the worst drugs ever), there are people who will tend to only want to use one drug. 

They tend to be pot heads who look down on anything that isn't weed because it COULD kill someone, or there will be people who are only interested in ecstasy or rolling because of the rave/clubbing scene, as well as there being strictly body builders who only use steroids or hormones/etc, and lastly those who only use psychedelics like acid/mushrooms, or someone who only uses any type of a psychedelic but is only interested in tripping. 

Yeah, there are people who only take opiates, but they are more than likely going to be more open minded about using other drugs such as benzos, barbs, muscle relaxers, antihistamines, or even stimulants, etc.

Because we can assume that there only tends to be these four groups who for whatever reasons, should be segregated away from other drugs because some stoners would otherwise be constantly posting anti-"hard drug" crap, or steroid users would make fun of the people who IV and have a hard time IVing, because they don't have the huge veins that goes along with certain steroid use (if you have seen pics of body builders - some of them have huge, garden hose sized veins, only a few steroids will produce this not all of them, so to them not working out which working out alone would increase vein size, is like weakness so they would be egging on the opiate users) then you have the psychedelic users who are going to look down on everybody else because they aren't getting "spiritual gains" from the other substances, and lastly you would have the less-intelligent strictly E-heads who would say things like "acid ____________ " (fill in any horrible thing which LSD-25 in itself has been accused of doing or whatever, but in reality is just a lie told to kids in DARE) and then you would have the psych heads and E heads going at each other (which is why even though MDMA/MDA have somewhat psychedelic properties to it, we still made a separate place for the discussion for them).

As you can see, all the discussion in Other Drugs tends to be a lot smoother, as a lot of the people who take one of whatever drug that is typically posted about in Other Drugs, typically has tried at least one or two others. I know for myself, I take stimulants, and downers, I like both but have for the better part taken more downers than stimulants overall. I know someone else on this board who is mostly into methamphetamine but also has been physically dependent on benzos, but wasn't a huge user of heroin or opiates. Yet other people are ONLY into benzos/barbs/opiates, and that's "their thing". 

So this is why Other Drugs has been shaped the way it has. We would just have one massive forum with discussion for all drugs on a certain individual level (which is why we still also have Basic Drug Discussion and Advanced Drug Discussion) but there would be a lot of people flaming and trolling the hell out of each other. 

Therefore, we really did have to separate out MDMA/MDA, Cannabis/cannabinoids, steroids, and psychedelics. 

There is a lot of discussion in threads that you can find by using the search engine which have gone over the heavy list of cons versus the light list of pros that an "opiate discussion" forum would have with it, if we were to separate "it" from OD as it stands today. 

However, the cons outweigh the pros, and Bluelight as a whole would suffer quality wise. 

Read up on the discussion, there still might be a thread where you can share your 2 cents, but this isn't something even worth thinking about again. I'll post this reply in that thread so that it's here for everyone to read it. 

Knowledge is the key to working past the lies the government has created about all different types of drugs, but without a way for Bluelight to have mandatory education for Greenlighters before they reach Bluelighter status, we are still going to have to work around current societal views on drugs which sadly are ignorant and ever-present. 

CH


----------



## Captain.Heroin

*a separate post for replies to people's posts*



abracadabra girl said:


> 72% of voters agree on splitting but management obviously isn't going to do it, so I don't really see the point in making up all these bullshit reasons. Just close the thread already.



Talking about it as a possibility helps remind us why we are not doing it.  If we were to forget for long enough, we would be like "Great idea!", do it, and then it would turn out to be a fiasco and then we'd revert back to the old way of doing things.  

Also, X% of voters just represents who voted during this poll, while it was running.  If current members didn't vote in it, it doesn't accurately represent how the people of Bluelight today feel about it.

Our member base is one that is constantly changing.  People grow up, they get married, get kids, get jobs, they "settle down", they quit their old drug habits (which is a great thing, at least it is harm reduction wise), etc. - this tends to send users in and out of different forums of Bluelight, and their frequency may go up or below, even to zero.  

There are other members who have sadly passed away, and new members are obviously replacing them.  More people will pass away, regrettably so, and then as more years pass on, more members join.  

So as you can see, this is just one way of analyzing what people think about this particular issue.  



=======

My last point; here you choose dissociative drugs, amphetamines, psychedelics, and opiates.  

Ignoring opiates.... let's say we have a drug that is a psychedelic like MDMA.  Oh wait, but MDMA is also an amphetamine (you can clearly see the *m*eth*a*mphetamine structure in MD*MA* if you analyze both 2D molecules).  

How about other stimulant-psychedelics that are related to amphetamine, other than MDMA?  Ganesha is a good example.  

Then again there are drugs which can be dissociative, as well as psychedelic, such as PCP or its analogues.  

Just these topics, opiates aside, would create a lot of cross posting and confusion.  I myself found MDA to be extremely psychedelic and have written extensively about my first experience with it, even though by Bluelight standards I would talk about it in Ecstasy Discussion, even though I could also bring it up in Psychedelic Drugs, it would be inappropriate to start a topic about it in PD.  



abracadabra girl said:


> Do you really agree, as Capt Heroin just said, that salvia and ketamine users might consider those drugs opiates and post questions about them in an opiate forum? That sounds so ridiculous to me that it makes me feel insulted, as though I'm being bullshitted, and I give up on ever having a meeting of the minds. And if I'm wrong and users of those drugs actually do consider them opiates, then obviously I'm far enough out of the loop that I have no business discussing the subject either. So I bow out.


People wouldn't speak of saliva as an opiate, but an kappa opioid receptor antagonist.  This is what renders its psychedelic properties, antagonizing the kappa opioid receptor.  

My point was, would you break it down on what people traditionally think of when they use opiates, or, would you break it down by "what touches these groups of receptors"?  

No one is trying to bullshit you.  There are plenty more examples I can bring up that are unique exceptions to general rules that people get used to.  



> I've read the forum descriptions. To repeat my previous suggestion, you can't have an arrangement which leads to an obvious conclusion and then put in the fine print that it really works completely differently. If the forums were arranged in a logical manner then the forum descriptions would be almost redundant, not a necessity to understanding how things work.


How else would you group the sub-forums then?  I would tend to think they are organized well.  



leftwing said:


> no i don't agree with that bit that captain suggested.  i think captain should put down the bong



I wish I still had my bong, the police took mine quite some time ago. 

Contact me for donations to help me buy a new bong.  :D 



abracadabra girl said:


> Before I go spouting off my own opinions, can you explain to me why it's deemed beneficial for a hypothetical amphetamine user to be exposed to topics such as opiates and benzos, but it's okay for a cannabis, ecstasy, steroid, or psychedelic drug user not to have to be exposed to a variety of other unrelated drug topics whilst discussing their own DOC?


A vast majority of amphetamine users are also accustomed to at least having tried stuff like benzodiazepines or opiates for the "crash".  Not all of them of course, but a great deal.  

Additionally, when you do an advanced search in Other Drugs, you can select the threads with the prefix you select, so you aren't "exposed" to the other threads.  



> Related question, where should I put a thread about combining LSD and oxy right now? Psychedelics or OD? Or BDD?
> 
> Long story short, I don't understand why cannabis, ecstasy, steroids, and psychedelics as a class merit a separate (but equal?) forum while other classes don't. That reasoning would be helpful to know.


I kind of typed that out in the largest post I have written above.  I hope you can somewhat understand my reasoning.  

As for where a thread about combining oxycodone and LSD would belong in, you could post that in BDD, or PD, or if you wanted to post about the trip experience itself you could post in TR.  You could also use the search engine and do an advanced search to see if other users have already started talking about this.  Then, if you do find a thread that is about LSD + oxy, then you could write your own thoughts in response to other people's, and continue the ongoing discussion.  %)



Enki said:


> A historical argument for keeping OD intact has been that OD members are primarily poly drug users. Even if that turns out to not be true I don't think OD participants are naive to drugs other than their DOC or that seeking to maintain a unawareness of drugs beyond one's DOC would be a good HR strategy.



Great point that I've been beat to.  Thank you for articulating this well Enki.


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## tathra

abracadabra girl said:


> Then why bother having a poll? The votes were apparently overwhelmingly positive.



i'm not sure if cpt.h touched on this (i woke up too drunk to read his really long-ass posts) but a good number of the people who voted against splitting were not just former staff members, but also previous OD mods, and while your first thought might be that its just because we're stuck in our ways and dont want to see our baby split due to some kind of misguided attachment, what it really boils down to having experience running the forum and running a significant chunk of bluelight (basically everything NOT related to mdma, which used to be the primary focus of bluelight) itself for a large amount of time, and from that experience, having a good idea of whats best for the board and its users overall, even if it doesnt really make sense to the regular user.

bluelight has, over the years, gone from an mdma-focused board to generalized harm reduction, so it could be that in the future, Other Drugs will be split from "Other Drugs" into several other forums, but as of this very moment, thats not really in the works.

threads like this are good though, because it does show that the community has evolved a lot over the years, and definitely helps reinvigorate discussions/thoughts about if we're doing enough for harm reduction in general, if we need to broaden the scope, etcetc.


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## ektamine

It would be nice to come up with some workable solution to give opiate discussion its own focus form. My perspective is a bit different, I'm a stim-fiend, always have been, but not much of an opie-head at all. The way I see it, OD is _mostly_ (but not only) a 'depressants' forum. It seems most of the discussion stems from opiates and benzos, with a smaller minority being amphet & RC's. 

I think it would be cool to have more focused communities for both the stimulant crowd and the opiate or opiate & depressants crowd. I understand however, there are some logistical problems with how to go about this.


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## Pegasus

I gotta say, I think the prefixes are working pretty well.  I was against them at first, but I see now that they are working as they were intended!


----------



## amapola

What about if we changed the name of OD to "Uppers, Downers and Others"?

Focus Forums
Ecstasy
Cannabis
Steroid
Psychedelic
Uppers, Downers and Others

Drug Discussion
Basic
Advanced
Culture

I understand people feel Other Drugs should be 'other' not most.


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## addictivepersona

^ "Uppers, Downers and All-Arounders"


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## amapola

ahaha!

Highs, Lows, and Hoes?


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## ektamine

GENIUS.

HLH forum FTW~!!


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## MAmp

*otherD forum*

I kinda think having 1 forum for all other drugs is... not annoying... but I am an Amphetamine user with no interests in downer drugs or.... " Other drugs" for that matter... I'd think Both Heroin/Morphine/Hydrocodone are popular enough to have there own place as uppers such as Methamphetamine/Methylphenidate/Amp/Cocaine ect. should have there own place. Its just kinda strange that such opposite sides of the spectrum drugs are places together. I mean Cannabis and Psychedelics have there own dedicated forum hell even Steroids and MDMA have there own when MDMA could be considered a psychedelic or an amphetamine even. 

To make a long story short I'm just wondering why Meth,Heroin, Cocaine, and all "Other drugs" Like Xanax, Valium,SSRIs are all thrown into one forum when they are so different? 

At Least make sub forums for "Uppers" and "downers"


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## animal_cookie

related reading


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