# Enough.  Reform the lounge already



## Fjones

This is a harm reduction website.  The Lounge is a degenerate forum where some of the more contemptible individuals go to act like total assholes and pass it off as "it's the lounge!  It isn't serious."  


WHY THE FUCK DOES A HARM REDUCTION SITE, and a great one at that, have a cesspool like the lounge?  

All it does it cause problems and start fights.  Whatever value it adds could still be added without all the insults and other garbage.  

And now some of the most worthless former members , along with some current members (I assume), have decided to create fake accounts on redlight.com using the same username and avatar as people here on this site, solely for the purpose of mocking them.  What a pathetic group of losers.  Are they trying to justify their own bans even further?    

WHAT THE FUCK?  Should it be a surprise that people who are assholes in the lounge ACTUALLY ARE ASSHOLES?  It shouldn't, but I guess to many here it is.  

I understand the need and use for a forum of light discussion about random topics.  BUT WHY DOES THAT FORUM have to allow people to be complete assholes and pass it off as some kind of fun?  WHAT FUCKING GOOD HAS THAT DONE ANYONE OR ANYTHING?  

The Lounge could be so much better if the rules on the rest of the site were applied.


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## Fjones

I was actually mildly amused when reading what the fake FJones says on that site.  It was a reasonably good parody of me but it failed to truly capture the essense of my bitterness and anger.  So, they failed, as usual.  

But regardless, I still wonder why that site is even necessary.  

The Lounge allows so much shit that it should NOT allow in the first place, and then the results are undesirable.  Why not jsut curtail shitty behavior ion the first place before people spend years on a site and then get banned?  Then they are upset because their years of time have resulted in a banned account.


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## coelophysis

Redlight.com is a porn site.


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## That_Guy

If you don't like what's on TV, change the channel


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## Fjones

Useful input from one of the failures himself.  Nicely done sir.  Thanks for contributing.


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## Fjones

That_Guy said:


> If you don't like what's on TV, change the channel



And if you object to murder and child molestation, just look in a different direction?  What the fuck?  

My post was about a foum that has run amok and isn't esepcially valuable to this site, and your answer is to "read a different forum."  

..........................   

ok.


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## kzorro

yeah um i'm confused... and curious about this redlight...


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## Nibiru

Pff. Big deal. It's good for a laugh, and sometimes something good does indeed come out of it. 

For eaxample, I've been enjoying the nudie thread.


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## That_Guy

Fjones said:


> And if you object to watching a depiction of murder and child molestation on TV, just turn over?



Yes


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## kzorro

Nibiru said:


> Pff. Big deal. It's good for a laugh, and sometimes something good does indeed come out of it.
> 
> For eaxample, I've been enjoying the nudie thread.


maybe we should just have a nudie forum


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## Jabberwocky

Fjones said:
			
		

> Useful input from one of the failures himself. Nicely done sir. Thanks for contributing.


Useless ad hominem. Disappointing in a supposed champion of productive rhetoric.


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## Pillthrill

GREAT all we did is to get more people to join. Fucking wonderful. 
Look, now we don't even need the lounge at all.


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## xxkcxx

Well, really...what do you expect BL mods/admins to do about something that is going on on another site?


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## Jabberwocky

Pillthrill said:
			
		

> GREAT all we did is to get more people to join. Fucking wonderful.
> Look, now we don't even need the lounge at all.


Well did you think that this thread was invisible. Did I crash a private party? You want everyone to agree with you? Wtf?


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## Fjones

Enki said:


> Useless ad hominem. Disappointing in a supposed champion of productive rhetoric.



It is not an Ad Hominum.  He is one of the moderators of the lounge who has presided over the mess it has become.  Thus, he is one of the people who failed at keeping it a civil forum.  

How is that an Ad Hominum?  It is not an Ad Hominum to point the failure of someone who has failed.  

Yes, the redlight site might be mildly amusing in some cases (The Fake FJones is actually a tamer version of the real thing), but that isn't the point. 

I was suggesting a way to IMPROVE THIS SITE.  I wasn't suggesting we moderate the fake site at all, I was suggesting we reconsider how the lounge is run here, because I don't see how any good comes of it.  

Enki, if you wish to encourage the meaningless kind of remark that was made by THAT GUY, then so be it.  But I found his comment to be useless and pointless.  Of course he isn't going to add anything to the discussion.  If he acknowledged that the lounge is a collection of garbage, he would be acknowledging his own failure.  

I know that if something sucks I can look away.  So what?  We should never fix anything that is broken; we should just look away?   I do not subscribe to that philosophy, especially NOT IN A HARM REDUCTION SITE.


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## Pillthrill

No, I just wasn't thinking ahead. Nothing new.
 But I still do believe there should be SAFE lounge threads.


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## Fjones

xxkcxx said:


> Well, really...what do you expect BL mods/admins to do about something that is going on on another site?



Nothing.  I expect them to do a better job on THIS site.  Maybe they are, hence the banning of the various losers who moved over to redlight.


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## Jabberwocky

Fjones said:
			
		

> Useful input from one of the failures himself. Nicely done sir. Thanks for contributing.





			
				Fjones said:
			
		

> How is that an Ad Hominum? It is not an Ad Hominum to point the failure of someone who has failed.


It was a post with name calling and sarcasm and no other content that I can perceive. 
If I explain my reservations about your lack of social skills there would be content, if I call you a social retard its name calling aka an ad hominem.


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## Nibiru

Neaner-neaner.

I like being able to read something stupid after arguing about the finer points of neuroscience or something like that without changing urls. Just be glad there is a place for the trolls to go. Consider it harm-reduction. Anyway, I'm out of this thread. Ciao.


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## That_Guy

Fjones said:


> It is not an Ad Hominum.  He is one of the moderators of the lounge who has presided over the mess it has become.  Thus, he is one of the people who failed at keeping it a civil forum.
> 
> How is that an Ad Hominum?  It is not an Ad Hominum to point the failure of someone who has failed.
> 
> Yes, the redlight site might be mildly amusing in some cases (The Fake FJones is actually a tamer version of the real thing), but that isn't the point.
> 
> I was suggesting a way to IMPROVE THIS SITE.  I wasn't suggesting we moderate the fake site at all, I was suggesting we reconsider how the lounge is run here, because I don't see how any good comes of it.
> 
> Enki, if you wish to encourage the meaningless kind of remark that was made by THAT GUY, then so be it.  But I found his comment to be useless and pointless.  Of course he isn't going to add anything to the discussion.  If he acknowledged that the lounge is a collection of garbage, he would be acknowledging his own failure.
> 
> I know that if something sucks I can look away.  So what?  We should never fix anything that is broken; we should just look away?   I do not subscribe to that philosophy, especially NOT IN A HARM REDUCTION SITE.



You want to know where I stand? 

I'm here in the middle of a bunch of pissed off staff that are trying to get things straightened out with the forum and you starting this thread to cry about how it is useless and pointless.  

It is an "off-topic" forum for a reason.  That is why it exists.  If it did not exist, than threads in every other forum on this site would be taken off topic by side conversations.  If you want something to change, change it yourself.  Because from where I sit, there are hundreds of different people showing up there week after week, going to see their friends and crack jokes that new people to the club might not understand.

Is some of it crass? Yes.  Does some of it go too far?  Yes.  However, there are currently four men assigned to filtering that content.  Have you seen how many posts the lounge gets in a day?  1000's.  Were you there to help direct the forum when it was growing up?  Have you tried to add worthwhile content to the forum without turning it into an argument when someone disagrees with you?  Have you even given money to help keep the site alive?

From my perspective, you are just an armchair quarterback sitting in your home pointing out all of the things that have gone wrong that need to be fixed.  You have no intention of trying to do anything to fix them yourself.  You are being selfish.

I took that position this past October.  Just like with our new president in the US, it takes time for things to change and get better.  Until you start doing something beyond complaining about it, then you have no room to complain about it.

If you don't like what's on, then change the channel.


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## Fjones

Enki said:


> It was a post with name calling and sarcasm and no other content that I can perceive.
> If I explain my reservations about your lack of social skills there would be content, if I call you a social retard its name calling aka an ad hominem.



Yes.  And In this thread I have discussed the failures of the lounge moderators.  

So what is the problem?  Are you saying I was not thorough or descriptive enough?  Are you saying it is never acceptable to say that someone failed?  After everythign that is ALLOWED in the lounge, you are really getting on my case for saying someone failed?  What a joke.  

I'll try that at work sometime.  

Boss -- "FJones, you failed in your duties"

Me -- "Oh, an Ad Hominum attack eh?"


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## Pillthrill

Fjones, there is no winning. They will keep their stupid lounge. Hopefully some 
off topic" non-trolling, mehm threads such as pic threads will stay free of that and other shit.


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## Fjones

That_Guy said:


> You want to know where I stand?
> 
> I'm here in the middle of a bunch of pissed off staff that are trying to get things straightened out with the forum and you starting this thread to cry about how it is useless and pointless.
> 
> It is an "off-topic" forum for a reason.  That is why it exists.  If it did not exist, than threads in every other forum on this site would be taken off topic by side conversations.  If you want something to change, change it yourself.  Because from where I sit, there are hundreds of different people showing up there week after week, going to see their friends and crack jokes that new people to the club might not understand.
> 
> Is some of it crass? Yes.  Does some of it go too far?  Yes.  However, there are currently four men assigned to filtering that content.  Have you seen how many posts the lounge gets in a day?  1000's.  Were you there to help direct the forum when it was growing up?  Have you tried to add worthwhile content to the forum without turning it into an argument when someone disagrees with you?  Have you even given money to help keep the site alive?
> 
> From my perspective, you are just an armchair quarterback sitting in your home pointing out all of the things that have gone wrong that need to be fixed.  You have no intention of trying to do anything to fix them yourself.  You are being selfish.
> 
> I took that position this past October.  Just like with our new president in the US, it takes time for things to change and get better.  Until you start doing something beyond complaining about it, then you have no room to complain about it.
> 
> If you don't like what's on, then change the channel.




Fair enough.  I appreciate that you elaborated on your thoughts.  And I think you make some good points.  

Why not just make these good points in the first place?  It sounds as though some of the staff and admins DO want to improve the lounge and clean up some of the garbage.  

You could have responded initially by saying, "FJones, the mods and staff are examining and discussing this very issue as we speak."

Instead you made a snide one liner, which I got annoyed with because I was trying to have a serious discussion. 


I know I lack tact and I can be abrasive.  I am working on that aspect my my personality but I cannot fix it overnight any more than anyone else can magically fix their flaws overnight.  

I don't understand the "two wrongs make a right" mentality though -- it seems that when I display a lack of tact and write an abrasive post, people sometimes respond by adding gasoline to the fire.  What is the point of that?  



I can see that moderating the lounge is a thankless task that muct be a nightmare.  I don't envy you or the other three.  I apologize for being dismissive of your work.  That was wrong of me.


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## Jabberwocky

Fjones said:
			
		

> Yes. And In this thread I have discussed the failures of the lounge moderators.
> 
> So what is the problem? Are you saying I was not thorough or descriptive enough? Are you saying it is never acceptable to say that someone failed? After everythign that is ALLOWED in the lounge, you are really getting on my case for saying someone failed? What a joke.
> 
> I'll try that at work sometime.
> 
> Boss -- "FJones, you failed in your duties"
> 
> Me -- "Oh, an Ad Hominum attack eh?"


My question is what did your post add to the discussion? Post #5? If it was a post about you my expectation is that you would cry foul. I'm not in my usual mode of dialogue I'm exposing a nitpicker to nitpicks and he responds with nitpicks. If the choice was between this whole site becoming the lounge or this whole site becoming Fjones style rhetoric I'd most certainly go with the lounge.


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## Fjones

Pillthrill said:


> Fjones, there is no winning. They will keep their stupid lounge. Hopefully some
> off topic" non-trolling, mehm threads such as pic threads will stay free of that and other shit.



I think the lounge has SOME value, and can have even more.  Some of the threads are fun and funny.  

My point (which I think is being lost) is, we can have fun and funny threads without having people treat people like assholes.  

"OFF-TOPIC" does NOT mean "Be an asshole and be nasty to each other."


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## Fjones

Enki said:


> My question is what did your post add to the discussion? Post #5? If it was a post about you my expectation is that you would cry foul. I'm not in my usual mode of dialogue I'm exposing a nitpicker to nitpicks and he responds with nitpicks. If the choice was between this whole site becoming the lounge or this whole site becoming Fjones style rhetoric I'd most certainly go with the lounge.



What was the point my post number 5?  None.  There was no point to post number 4 or number 5.  They were both pointless.  The difference is, I know that I engage in petty disagreements sometimes.  I have a bad habit of reacting to the things people say when they are best left ignored. 

The difference is, I don't pretend otherwise.  Other people act the same way and blame the entire argument on me.  Well, it takes two.  I would say that post 4 instigated post 5.   Does that justify my post 5?  No.  But I am also not a moderator nor will I ever be.  If I were, I would not expect people to be okay with my making posts like number 4.


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## Max Power

Seriously, it's the internet. Fucking relax. Go make some friends IRL. Get a hobby.



> And if you object to murder and child molestation, just look in a different direction? What the fuck?



Sometimes, I can't believe you're serious. At least I knew CG was trolling. You actually believe the arguments you try and start.

Turning a blind eye to the banter that occurs on an online message board has absolutely no correlation between child molestation and murder.

holy fuck.


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## Fjones

Enki said:


> My question is what did your post add to the discussion? Post #5? If it was a post about you my expectation is that you would cry foul. I'm not in my usual mode of dialogue I'm exposing a nitpicker to nitpicks and he responds with nitpicks. If the choice was between this whole site becoming the lounge or this whole site becoming Fjones style rhetoric I'd most certainly go with the lounge.



Well, people don't like logic.  It scares them.  They do not like it when their emotional, factless, and irrational argument can be refuted by cold hard logic.  

It is because people shun and mock the use of logic that politicians are so easily able to fool the majority of the public.  People cannot see through their bullshit and lies because they don't understand the basics of logic.  

People don't like logic because they don't like being outsmarted.  They don't like being painted into a corner when their flimsy argument unravels.  But instead of learning how to make better arguments, they mock the use of logic and ridicule the user.  

How does that benefit anyone?


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## Fjones

MaxPowers said:


> Seriously, it's the internet. Fucking relax. Go make some friends IRL. Get a hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes, I can't believe you're serious. At least I knew CG was trolling. You actually believe the arguments you try and start.
> 
> Turning a blind eye to the banter that occurs on an online message board has absolutely no correlation between child molestation and murder.
> 
> holy fuck.



You obviously do not know what the word correlation means.  

It was an ANALOGY.  I never said there was a correlation.  

People are not very good at understanding analogies either, unfortunately.  Do they teach anything in schools these days?


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## comador

It may of been an alnalogy, but it was a shit one. You cant compare some trolling to child molestation and murder. why so serious?!


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## Fjones

MaxPowers said:


> Seriously, it's the internet. Fucking relax. Go make some friends IRL. Get a hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes, I can't believe you're serious. At least I knew CG was trolling. You actually believe the arguments you try and start.
> 
> Turning a blind eye to the banter that occurs on an online message board has absolutely no correlation between child molestation and murder.
> 
> holy fuck.



Also, you don't know me so don't act like you do.  I have more friends "IRL" than most, and far more hobbies than most.   I could easily crush you at many of the numerous hobbies I enjoy.  

Just because I debate on a forum does not mean I don't have friends or hobbies.  That you would say that just how lame your level of thinking is.  I might take issue with a lot of things that people say here, but I can respond a bit more intelligently than "Go find some friends or hobbies," because I am smart enough not to presume a person lacks either of those.


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## Fjones

comador said:


> It may of been an alnalogy, but it was a shit one. You cant compare some trolling to child molestation and murder. why so serious?!



You also do not seem to understand analogies.  

Why am I bothering to debate analogies with people here?  I TEACH S.A.T. classes, which used to have analogies on them.  I know how analogies work.  The general public, sadly, has little understanding of them,  which is why I was able to make good money teaching them.  

I never equated the doings in the lounge with murder and child molestation.  I used an extreme example to POINT OUT THAT we shouldn't simply ignore things that are broken and causing problems.


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## Jabberwocky

I've been over reacting in this thread and I've gotten sort of personal which is not a good way to react to member feedback. Thank you for your feedback. Not as an excuse but as an explanation the first post seemed very hostile and uncivil to me. I should have left the computer for a while before posting.

Honestly, not argument for arguments sake, I sense an authentic message in post #4. Similar messages are in slogans like "Bothered by abortion, then don't have one."  "Opposed to pornography, don't buy any." Its another way of saying that the lounge isn't compulsory and if you don't get it or you don't like it, Oh well. 

Please keep in mind that no part of Bluelight is going to please everybody.


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## Fjones

Enki said:


> I've been over reacting in this thread and I've gotten sort of personal which is not a good way to react to member feedback. Thank you for your feedback. Not as an excuse but as an explanation the first post seemed very hostile and uncivil to me. I should have left the computer for a while before posting.
> 
> Honestly, not argument for arguments sake, I sense an authentic message in post #4. Similar messages are in slogans like "Bothered by abortion, then don't have one."  "Opposed to pornography, don't buy any." Its another way of saying that the lounge isn't compulsory and if you don't get it or you don't like it, Oh well.
> 
> Please keep in mind that no part of Bluelight is going to please everybody.





You make a fair point.   My initial post was one that I wrote out of my annoyance for the lounge when I was esepcially annoyed about the lounge for a specific reason or two.  I probably should have waited to write the post until later.  

I never set out to make personal attacks or start fights.  I just seem to fall into them for various reasons.   I am not good at de-escalating.  

It sounds like the staff IS working on improving the lounge and tightening up moderation, and that pleases me.  I appreciate whatever efforts have been taken.  Overall I think this is a great site and I want to see it stay that way.  

Perhaps we should close this thread.


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## That_Guy

Fjones said:


> You also do not seem to understand analogies.
> 
> Why am I bothering to debate analogies with people here?  I TEACH S.A.T. classes, which used to have analogies on them.  I know how analogies work.  The general public, sadly, has little understanding of them,  which is why I was able to make good money teaching them.
> 
> I never equated the doings in the lounge with murder and child molestation.  I used an extreme example to POINT OUT THAT we shouldn't simply ignore things that are broken and causing problems.



No, your analogy had no relationship to the content of this overall discussion.

Looking away from actual crimes being committed has no relationship to looking away from words on a screen.  They are not analogous.  For them to be analogous, the principle action and result of one would need to be comparable to the principle action and result of the other.  If you look away from a forum on the internet, then no person has been physically harmed.  If a person looks away from the commission of a murder, then someone has been physically harmed.  You are comparing Playboy and snuff films.

Your logic is flawed, thereby nullifying your argument.  You may teach SAT prep, but you already have the answers in front of you.  The SAT does not require creative thinking.  Everything is dry and straightforward.  

Also, you never help your case by responding 





			
				fjones said:
			
		

> I have more friends "IRL" than most, and far more hobbies than most. I could easily crush you at many of the numerous hobbies I enjoy.


  This does not lend others to sympathize with your position or believe your claims.  Use this as a comparison:

A:"You are stupid."
B:"No I'm not.  I'm smarter than you."

How will person A respond?  Will person A typically believe person B on the face of their contention that they are in fact more intelligent, or does it beg further argument?  Had you responded, for example, "I am an accomplished violinist," then no one would question any further.  However, with a response claiming that you will "crush" others at various nameless hobbies, it sounds as though you are boasting as a defense mechanism.  Such a defense mechanism reveals further weakness that can and will be exploited in the lounge in particular, but elsewhere as well.


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## Fjones

That_Guy said:


> No, your analogy had no relationship to the content of this overall discussion.
> 
> Looking away from actual crimes being committed has no relationship to looking away from words on a screen.  They are not analogous.  For them to be analogous, the principle action and result of one would need to be comparable to the principle action and result of the other.  If you look away from a forum on the internet, then no person has been physically harmed.  If a person looks away from the commission of a murder, then someone has been physically harmed.  You are comparing Playboy and snuff films.
> 
> Your logic is flawed, thereby nullifying your argument.  You may teach SAT prep, but you already have the answers in front of you.  The SAT does not require creative thinking.  Everything is dry and straightforward.
> 
> Also, you never help your case by responding   This does not lend others to sympathize with your position or believe your claims.  Use this as a comparison:
> 
> A:"You are stupid."
> B:"No I'm not.  I'm smarter than you."
> 
> How will person A respond?  Will person A typically believe person B on the face of their contention that they are in fact more intelligent, or does it beg further argument?  Had you responded, for example, "I am an accomplished violinist," then no one would question any further.  However, with a response claiming that you will "crush" others at various nameless hobbies, it sounds as though you are boasting as a defense mechanism.  Such a defense mechanism reveals further weakness that can and will be exploited in the lounge in particular, but elsewhere as well.




I don't know what to tell you.  If I wanted to reveal my real name, I could post links to a site that shows that I am a two time national champion at something that is played by people all over the world.  But I don't see why I need to reveal personal information about myself.   

If some person wants to be a jerk and say that I have no hobbies and no friends, I invite him to come visit me and A)  meet my friends or B)  come challenge me in any of 15 or 20 different hobbies, most of which I would likely crush him in.  

I don't really know what else to say.  

By the way, the reason I was chosen to teach SAT classes is that I was able to ace the questions WITHOUT the answers in front me. You are a smart guy so I assume you know that they don't just hire some fool who can read answers from a book right?  Or am I giving you too much credit?  I guess I am, because you implied that to be the case.  

My analogy was valid.  I'll slow it down for you since you seem to be struggling. 

I said, originally (paraphrasing here), "The lounge has a lot of problems.  It has run amok and people are treating each other like shit and it is causing problems."  

You said, "If you don't like it, turn the channel."

I then made my supposedly flawed analogy.  

Here is the deal.  When you said, "If you don't like it, turn the channel," you were saying "If you have a problem with something, ignore it instead of trying to fix it." 

My ANALOGY then pointed out the flaw in your response, that is, we cannot simply ignore things that are broken, because SOME things (like Murder, child molestation) are too serious to ignore, so we must fix the problem.

In other words, you cannot just say, as a general philosophy, "If you have a problem with something, ignore it."  You would only say that about something unimportant.  

So by saying that about my thread, all you were REALLY SAYING IS, "Shut up, your issue isn't important." 

If that is how you feel, just say that, don't spout a hackneyed cliché.  

So really, you just chose poor words.  Instead of saying, "It you don't like it, change the channel," you could have said, "Yeah the lounge has problems but they aren't important enough to bother with so who cares?"

But if that is the case, why is there so much talk about it?  Why are so many warnings and temp bans issued?  


Anything WORTH FIXING, should be fixed, and anything NOT worth fixing, should be DISCARDED.  

THAT is why I objected to your statement and why I made the analogy I did.


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## Rogue Robot

If you have an issue with the lounge, there are more ways to go about making changes in the lounge rather than complaining in SUPPORT.

If you don't like it, fine.  Either don't post or make worthwhile posts in there in hopes that people will follow suit.  I know I tease alasdairm () when I repeat this, but he is absolutely right in saying 'be the change...'.  I have taken Ali's words and thought about them in nearly every forum in which I post, and maybe you should do the same.


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## Fjones

I was actually unsure about which forum to post in so I put it in homeless in the hopes that it would be moved to the best location.  

I cannot "be the change" in the lounge.  They don't like me in the lounge.  my best bet is to avoid the lounge, which I do, except for the picture threads and some polls.


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## Fjones

Also, for what it's worth, my threads and posts do seem to generate a lot of discussion.  I'd rather be controversial than boring.  If so many people don't like me why do they waste their energy responding to my posts?


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## That_Guy

Fjones said:


> Here is the deal.  When you said, "If you don't like it, turn the channel," you were saying "If you have a problem with something, ignore it instead of trying to fix it."
> 
> My ANALOGY then pointed out the flaw in your response, that is, we cannot simply ignore things that are broken, because SOME things (like Murder, child molestation) are too serious to ignore, so we must fix the problem.



No, a problem is the poor state of public education.  A problem is your car making a terrible noise.  Individual life-changing (or ending) events are not problems.  They are tragedies.  One person using a racial slur to name-call someone else is a problem.  It is not a life-ending tragedy. 

Why are you so passive-aggressive in your answers?  It is unbecoming of someone that holds themselves above us ignorant rabble to try to claim fair statements when they come in the form of sarcastic, dismissive quips about your perception of the other's intelligence. (This is an obvious demonstration of passive aggression)

If you notice, I have asked questions about your participation in the funding of this site and asked you to change the things that you see as broken.  I did not name call and I did not try to paint myself as anything.  I did not tell anything, I showed it.  Please, before pointing out the speck in my eye, remove the plank from yours.


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## Infinite Jest

Fjones said:


> And now some of the most worthless former members , along with some current members (I assume), have decided to create fake accounts on redlight.com using the same username and avatar as people here on this site, solely for the purpose of mocking them.  What a pathetic group of losers.  Are they trying to justify their own bans even further?



I agree with some of what you say in your post, but just quickly: BL is not responsible for redlight, doesn't endorse it, doesn't have, or want to have, anything to do with it. I would strongly recommend ignoring it completely . 

[I'm sure someone else said this already, I've only read first post]


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## Fjones

That_Guy said:


> No, a problem is the poor state of public education.  A problem is your car making a terrible noise.  Individual life-changing (or ending) events are not problems.  They are tragedies.  One person using a racial slur to name-call someone else is a problem.  It is not a life-ending tragedy.
> 
> Why are you so passive-aggressive in your answers?  It is unbecoming of someone that holds themselves above us ignorant rabble to try to claim fair statements when they come in the form of sarcastic, dismissive quips about your perception of the other's intelligence. (This is an obvious demonstration of passive aggression)
> 
> If you notice, I have asked questions about your participation in the funding of this site and asked you to change the things that you see as broken.  I did not name call and I did not try to paint myself as anything.  I did not tell anything, I showed it.  Please, before pointing out the speck in my eye, remove the plank from yours.





I am not sure why I am so passive aggressive.  It isn't intentional.  I actually think of myself as overtly aggressive, not passive-aggressive.  Either way, I would like to change the way I interact with people here.  I think I have some good ideas, and, for certain topics, I have a lot of information to share.  

Unfortunately, much of that is lost in the melee that often ensues as a result of my communication failures with people.  

So to answer your questions honestly -- I don't know.  I guess my biggest problems are A)  I respond too quickly without thinking things through, and B) I don't review my posts to see how the overall tone is, and C)  I am absolutely terrible at seeing things from other people's point of view, and I have a hard time figuring out how others will perceive what I write.  

I find this especially difficult on the internet, where tone and context are often lost for various reasons.  


Regarding contributing financially, I did not mean to dodge the issue, I just don't have much extra money right now.  I hope that changes soon and I expect it to.  I would like to donate.  I have donated to sites in the past when I find them valuable, as I do this one.  

That said, if I had donated, would that somehow justify my abrasive and confrontational attitude?  I don't think it would, which is another reason I ignored the question.  

regarding this -- 

"It is unbecoming of someone that holds themselves above us ignorant rabble to try to claim fair statements when they come in the form of sarcastic, dismissive quips about your perception of the other's intelligence. (This is an obvious demonstration of passive aggression)"


I will try to address that.  

Look, the simple fact is, I am smarter than most people.  I am not saying that to boast or aggrandize myself in any way or to put anyone else down.   I state it as a simple fact.  

Now, that does NOT mean that what I say is right and what others say is wrong.  

But SOMETIMES a situation comes up where the other person IS wrong, but simply doesn't seem to be able to understand why.  When that happens, there are only so many ways I can explain it before i get frustrated.  And if the person then says I am stupid, it becomes all the more frustrating -- because now, not only is the person not grasping the concept, but he is implying that it is MY lack of intelligence that is causing the problem.  

Does this sound arrogant?  I hope not because I am just trying to explain myself and illustrate a point.  

Suppose I say that "If A then B."  And someone argues with me, and attempts to disprove what I am saying by showing that B does not cause A.  

What that person is doing does not make sense and is just plain WRONG.  There is no gray area.  When we say "A causes B," we are not saying anything about what B causes or doesn't cause.  

But, people will make that error, and similar errors, and act as though they have said something clever or logical, when all they have said is nonsense.  

I can explain the errors several different ways, but then people say I am bullying or being pedantic.  So what am I supposed to do in that situation?  

There are DOZENS of rules of logic, and when they are violated, the argument is invalid!  Yet most people don't know these rules of logic or the associated logical fallacies, and they don't care to learn them.  However, if they choose to remain ignorant, they shouldn’t be so argumentative about it.  

What I am getting at is, anyone who doesn't understand the rules of logic falls into two categories –

A)  not smart enough to understand them or 
B)  is smart enough but has chosen not to

I have little patience for people from group A who are UNAWARE of their deficiency and choose to argue illogically.  
And I have little tolerance for people from group B either, because they are passing up a chance to learn how to form logical, valid, cogent arguments, but then they debate in ways that are just illogical and frustrating.  
I guess I don’t know how to point out when someone has violated a rule of logic without sounding like an ass.  
When I teach SAT classes, or when I tutor logic, the students know they have deficiencies or that they have something to learn, so they don’t challenge me on it.  Here, people don’t always know what constitutes sound logic but they challenge me on it anyway.  

It gets frustrating.  

A perfect example is what MaxPowers said.  “Get some friends ILR or get some hobbies.”  There are just so many things wrong with that.  I would never say that to anyone, because A) It is an absurd assumption, B) the other person cannot disprove it nor can anyone prove it and C) It has nothing to do with anything being discussed.  

When someone says something like that, he is basically saying, “I have no rebuttal to what you said, either because I am too lazy to come up with one, not smart enough to come up with one, or I just don’t care.”  

Well, why not just SAY one of those instead of making an assumption that is phrased as an insult?


----------



## MazDan

Fjones.

Lets say for example that there are a lot of people who agree with you and that the lounge needs something drastic to happen to it to make it some sort of habitable place for all bluelighters and not just those it currently attracts.

How do you suggest that things should be done in order to achieve the desired result?

Imagine for a moment that you are suddenly turned into the lounge super mod and its your job to turn it into something worthwhile.

What are you going to do?

How are you going to achieve it?


----------



## sunflash876

People are just being assholes because they can be, I've noticed this in alot of people I know IRL. It's much funner being an asshole than a nice guy. It's also impossible to detect things such as "sarcasm" or an "I was just joking" attitude via text, such as in a forum (Unless you put  or something similar to that at the end of the phrase).


----------



## tobala

Pillthrill said:


> ...there is no winning. They will keep their stupid lounge...


And you will continue to love going there.






Proposal: creation of a new "safe" _Lounge _subforum called _The Comfy Chair_ and moderated by guess who.


----------



## Max Power

Fjones said:


> I have more friends "IRL" than most, and far more hobbies than most.   I could easily crush you at many of the numerous hobbies I enjoy.





Fjones said:


> Why am I bothering to debate analogies with people here?  I TEACH S.A.T. classes, which used to have analogies on them.  I know how analogies work.  The general public, sadly, has little understanding of them,  which is why I was able to make good money teaching them.





Fjones said:


> Look, the simple fact is, I am smarter than most people.



Does anyone else sense a pattern here? 8)



Fjones said:


> A perfect example is what MaxPowers said.  “Get some friends ILR or get some hobbies.”  There are just so many things wrong with that.  I would never say that to anyone, because A) It is an absurd assumption, B) the other person cannot disprove it nor can anyone prove it and C) It has nothing to do with anything being discussed.
> 
> When someone says something like that, he is basically saying, “I have no rebuttal to what you said, either because I am too lazy to come up with one, not smart enough to come up with one, or I just don’t care.”
> 
> Well, why not just SAY one of those instead of making an assumption that is phrased as an insult?



I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

It seems you are a high strung individual who enjoys arguing.

The more time you spend away from bluelight, the smaller all these "lounge" problems become.


----------



## Arnold

> Look, the simple fact is, I am smarter than most people.


Yet not smart enough to not click on the lounge and stop reading it.
Yet not smart enough to understand simple logic.



			
				Maxpowers said:
			
		

> It seems you are a high strung individual who enjoys arguing.


x2 .
I could add to the reason as to why he is like that then again Fjones will see it as a personal attack or something else and go off rambling for 50 pages again.


----------



## Rogue Robot

moved this

HOMELESS -> SUPPORT

behave, kids.


----------



## Snowbear

Fjones said:


> And if you object to murder and child molestation, just look in a different direction?
> 
> My post was about a foum that has run amok and isn't esepcially valuable to this site, and your answer is to "read a different forum." ok.


It works 100% of the time for me.  

And for the Extra - Sensitive Viewer, you can also place the thoughtless buffoons and Lounge reprobates on "Ignore".

^^All that info and I don't even work at "Support" forum.

Will


----------



## Slay

well honestly i really didnt read any of these posts but my opinion is that we are all (approx 100.000 registered users on this site) are all drug addicts and we need a place to bullshit, have fun, flame, bitch, post nonsense stuff, nudies, memes etc imo lounge is necessary


----------



## Lysis

If I want to laugh, I go to the Lounge
If I'm sad and want to complain, I go to TDS
If I want to hurt my brain, I go to P&S
If I want to put my 2 cents in on a variety of subjects, I go to SO

If I don't want to see any of it, I just don't go to BL.
If I don't like something being said to me, I click on the next thread.

Forums are what you make of them.  There aren't victims on forums, only volunteers.


----------



## alasdairm

related reading:

The calm and mature Lounge standards discussion thread...
Can we have a thread here to discuss the current lounge rules?

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

bluelight is a community and, as expected, has a set of both formal and informal community standards. in the same way that most people ease into a real life community - a new school or a new job - so most people would generally ease into an online community.

if you (in the more general sense) have been a new member of an online community for 5 minutes and start telling everybody how things should be, you might reasonably expect some pushback. even if you're simply a new member who chooses to participate in the lounge early in their bluelight life, as with any community, there's a lot to be learned by lurking on the sidelines to get a feel for the community standards.

i can't speak for them but i don't believe for one second that the staff feel there is nothing they can do to change the negative aspects of the lounge.

i do echo lysis in that people have much more control over their own lounge experience than some can or do admit.

alasdair


----------



## Damien

Fjones said:


> I have a bad habit of reacting to the things people say when they are best left ignored.


Ain't that the truth! 




Fjones said:


> So really, you just chose poor words.  Instead of saying, "It you don't like it, change the channel," you could have said, "Yeah the lounge has problems but they aren't important enough to bother with so who cares?"


You know for someone who claims to be so smart you would think that you would be able to decipher what he said as it appears you just did (congratulations). Please realize that dialogue doesn't always have to be an argument. If I walked up to my friend and asked "Hey bro, whassup?!" and he said "The sky you idiot" I can guarantee that we wouldn't be friends for very long. 


Fjones said:


> Also, for what it's worth, my threads and posts do seem to generate a lot of discussion.  I'd rather be controversial than boring.  If so many people don't like me why do they waste their energy responding to my posts?


FWIW you're the leading poster in here with 19 posts followed by Enki with 5. Maybe you should start posting in the talk to yourself thread. 

Fjones, maybe you should reigster under a new handle: Reductio ad absurdum.


----------



## That_Guy

Fjones said:


> A)  not smart enough to understand them or
> B)  is smart enough but has chosen not to



You forgot C) Has never been taught the rules of logic

What you believe to be inherent is, in fact, not.  There are many aspects of our society wherein logic is not only flawed, but irrelevant.  Many people are never taught the algebraic forms of logical relationships and therefore can not be expected to follow the minutiae of the rules.

Also, you want to prove that others are illogical, yet you fail to address my concerns over your ill-use of logic.  By making an argument ad absurdum, you do not show your analogy to be valid.  You show it to be dismissible.  

My question of your participation in the funding of this site was too limited.  I should have asked what you contribute to the site as a whole.  Have you helped in any person's harm reduction?  Have you donated knowledge about chemical combinations or drug action?  Have you talked down people on the verge of suicide?  Have you donated your time to aid in the operations of this site?  Or have you been screaming at the top of your lungs for someone to pay attention to you?

I'm paying attention to you.  Does this make you happier?  Or am I too stupid to understand your fancy book learnin?  There is nothing here that anyone can say to make you happier.  



			
				fjones said:
			
		

> I cannot "be the change" in the lounge. They don't like me in the lounge. my best bet is to avoid the lounge, which I do, except for the picture threads and some polls.



If this is the case, then why is it your concern?  PillThrill's complaint about the picture thread being mean is irrelevant because the comments to which she referred were dealt with.  This is not a panopticon.  We as a staff cannot maintain an ever present vigil over every post.  Sometimes things slip through and may be visible for a couple of hours before a staff member can read it and take action.


----------



## Snowbear

monstanoodle said:


> I've never seen this redlight. Please direct me, I like to read bullshit and then tut to myself (seriously, does it exist?).


http://redlight.19.forumer.com/index.php


----------



## Fjones

MazDan said:


> Fjones.
> 
> Lets say for example that there are a lot of people who agree with you and that the lounge needs something drastic to happen to it to make it some sort of habitable place for all bluelighters and not just those it currently attracts.
> 
> How do you suggest that things should be done in order to achieve the desired result?
> 
> Imagine for a moment that you are suddenly turned into the lounge super mod and its your job to turn it into something worthwhile.
> 
> What are you going to do?
> 
> How are you going to achieve it?



I would encourage pleasant interaction.  I would discourage trolling.  I don't know when trolling became something to be proud of, the the top trollers here were really proud of themselves and would pat each other on the back.  

I would discourage bullying and flame wars.  

I would delete posts that just mock or insult other posters.  

I would get rid of this "It's just the lounge" attitude and actually start enforcing the rules.  

The nudie thread, the pets picture thread, the other picture threads, the entertaining threads where people play lounge games that string from one post to the next, the of-topic questions like what to do about an up toilet seat -- those are all valuable to the site.  They are light and fun and interesting.  They would just as much so if the standard rules of BL applied.  You don't lose anything from those threads by enforcing the rules that people cannot treat others like shit.  

Also, I feel like I repeat myself here a lot.  I already acknowledged that I can just avoid the lounge.  I know that.  Why do people point that out as though it is an idea i have not thought of?  For the most part, I do avoid the lounge, though some of the subscribed threads in my User CP ARE in the lounge, and I reply from time to time. 

That isn't the point though.  If the lounge has negative consequences across other places on the site, I would like to offer input and suggestions to improve it.  That is why I don't just "change the channel," as That Guy suggested.


----------



## Fjones

That_Guy said:


> _You forgot C) Has never been taught the rules of logic
> 
> What you believe to be inherent is, in fact, not.  There are many aspects of our society wherein logic is not only flawed, but irrelevant.  Many people are never taught the algebraic forms of logical relationships and therefore can not be expected to follow the minutiae of the rules._
> 
> *That isn't my fault.  Look, I would love to open a forum just for the purpose of grammar and logic and word usage.  But no one would care, and I would be ridiculed.  Yes, many people were never taught proper logic and argument form, but most of them prefer to keep it that way. They don't want to have to bother.  Even when I point it out in passing (unless it is the et peeves thread), no on appreciates it.  Essentially, what happens is, people reject any attempt to improve the way they form statements and arguments, then when they use their flawed methods, you are saying they should be excused because they were never taught the right methods.
> 
> That makes it hard to have a logical discussion.  And if a discussion is not logical, it is emotional, which doesn't go far, because then you have discussions like this --
> 
> "Drugs should be legal because __________   (fill in the blank with a cogent logical argument)"
> 
> "Are you crazy?  My 3rd cousin overdosed on heroin.  I hate drugs!  You monster"
> 
> etc.  *
> 
> 
> 
> _Also, you want to prove that others are illogical, yet you fail to address my concerns over your ill-use of logic.  By making an argument ad absurdum, you do not show your analogy to be valid.  You show it to be dismissible.  _
> 
> *I disagree that I made an argument ad absurdum.  When someone says, "If you have a problem with _____  the solution is to ignore it,"
> 
> all I have to do to logically counter that is to show a counter example where that strategy does not make sense.  That is what I did.  The counter example in that case will often be of a more extreme nature than the original.  *
> 
> _My question of your participation in the funding of this site was too limited.  I should have asked what you contribute to the site as a whole.  Have you helped in any person's harm reduction?  Have you donated knowledge about chemical combinations or drug action?  Have you talked down people on the verge of suicide?  Have you donated your time to aid in the operations of this site?  Or have you been screaming at the top of your lungs for someone to pay attention to you?_
> 
> *Yes, I have helped in harm reduction.  I have 2000 posts!  Do you think all of them are lounge complaints or pet peeves?  I post in TDS a lot, trying to help others who are struggling.  I offer advice there constantly.  I created a thread to help people play poker (one of those hobbies I don't have, according to max powers), and I have received praise for that.  Lost of people have thanks me for many contributions to this site.  I offer helpful tips in Ecstasy discussion when it is apparent that a noob doesn't know what he is talking about and might hurt himself.  I have donated knowledge about drug combinations and drug action.  I have spoken to suicidal people, publicly and in private messages, and helped them deal.
> 
> I generated some interesting discussion topics in the sports forum.  And many people enjoy my postings in the pet Peeves column.  I have also received compliments from people in threads and in PMs for my contributions in different areas.
> 
> So, yes, I do contribute, quite a lot.  *
> 
> 
> _I'm paying attention to you.  Does this make you happier?  Or am I too stupid to understand your fancy book learnin?  There is nothing here that anyone can say to make you happier.  _
> 
> *I don't want you to pay attention to me. I want you to be logical and reasonable with me.  That is all I want with anyone.  *
> 
> 
> If this is the case, then why is it your concern?  PillThrill's complaint about the picture thread being mean is irrelevant because the comments to which she referred were dealt with.  This is not a panopticon.  We as a staff cannot maintain an ever present vigil over every post.  Sometimes things slip through and may be visible for a couple of hours before a staff member can read it and take action.




*Good.  I am glad to hear it.*


----------



## alasdairm

Fjones said:


> I would encourage pleasant interaction.  I would discourage trolling...
> 
> I would discourage bullying and flame wars.
> 
> ...
> 
> I would get rid of this "It's just the lounge" attitude...


these are "_whats_"  not "_hows_". how would you do those things?



Fjones said:


> If the lounge has negative consequences across other places on the site...


i note you phrased this conditionally but i'm interested in any analysis of how the lounge has negative consequences across other places on the site. i definitely see loungespeak spill out once in a while but it's normally met with a swift "_this is not the lounge_". what do you think?

alasdair


----------



## Fjones

alasdairm said:


> these are "_whats_"  not "_hows_". how would you do those things?
> 
> i note you phrased this conditionally but i'm interested in any analysis of how the lounge has negative consequences across other places on the site. i definitely see loungespeak spill out once in a while but it's normally met with a swift "_this is not the lounge_". what do you think?
> 
> alasdair



Everyone keeps asking me "How."  I am confused.   Am I being invited to be an administrator?   

I would have to sit down and THINK for awhile to come up with some "how"s.  If I were an admin, I would do exactly that, but I am not, nor will I be, as I am not suited to the task and it would be insane to ever put me on staff.  

So, my best chance to influence policy is as a regular bluelighter.  The problem is, I don't feel confident that people really care what I have to say, so why should I bother?   

I'll give it a quick try though off the top of my head.  

Here are some "how"s --

1)  Get rid of the "This is the lounge" mentality.  So what?  Apply the same rules from other forums.  If someone is violating a rule, he is violating a rule.  

If someone sees a funny thread in the lounge, he should be able to participate without having to worry about being flamed or trolled.  

Another how -- stronger consequences.   This will deter the undesirable behavior.  

Anyway, I could come up with more, but again, why?  People seem to think the lounge is okay and that those who dislike it should just avoid it.  


As for the last part of your post, the nastiness toward pillthrill spills out all over the place.  People have hassled me in other forums.  And it just creates bad feelings between members of the same site, which can lead to tension and problems.    The Lounge almost seems like a different site.   I don't get it.  

Also, I am going to vomit if one more person says "chill man, it's the internet" or some shit like that.  (This is not directed at you alasdair)

Look, either we care about the site or we don't.  But please don't just selectively throw out phrases like "it's the internet, chill out," implying that there is some reduced level of importance in internet dealings.  Many users, moderators and administrators spend a lot of time and effort on this site.  So, people obviously care.  The people who claim they don't care and that I care too much still take the time to argue with me or needle me about something.  

We all care, some of us just want to pretend they don't because they think it's cool to put someone down by implying that he spends too much time on the internet.  People used similar insults in elementary school.  I had hoped people would grow out of it at some point.


----------



## Fjones

MaxPowers said:


> Does anyone else sense a pattern here? 8)
> 
> 
> 
> I said what I meant and I meant what I said.
> 
> It seems you are a high strung individual who enjoys arguing.
> 
> The more time you spend away from bluelight, the smaller all these "lounge" problems become.



What pattern?  I am smarter than most people and I am talented at many hobbies and games, and I excel at many of them.  You brought it up, not me.  Should I lie and say I am dumb?  That I am not good at anything?  What do you want from me?  You made a snide remark about how many friends I have or how many hobbies I have, and you don't like my answer.  Next time don't make the comment.  

I enjoy discussing politics and ideas and world issues, and I enjoy debate.  I guess I am more accustomed to a more intelligent group, because I don't run into so many peope devoid of logical understanding.  As a result, the discussions "IRL" remain civil and productive.


----------



## That_Guy

Fjones said:


> What pattern?  I am smarter than most people and I am talented at many hobbies and games, and I excel at many of them.  You brought it up, not me.  Should I lie and say I am dumb?  That I am not good at anything?  What do you want from me?  You made a snide remark about how many friends I have or how many hobbies I have, and you don't like my answer.  Next time don't make the comment.
> 
> I enjoy discussing politics and ideas and world issues, and I enjoy debate.  I guess I am more accustomed to a more intelligent group, because I don't run into so many peope devoid of logical understanding.  As a result, the discussions "IRL" remain civil and productive.



You forgot to say how modest you are.


----------



## Fjones

Damien said:


> Ain't that the truth!
> 
> 
> 
> You know for someone who claims to be so smart you would think that you would be able to decipher what he said as it appears you just did (congratulations). Please realize that dialogue doesn't always have to be an argument. If I walked up to my friend and asked "Hey bro, whassup?!" and he said "The sky you idiot" I can guarantee that we wouldn't be friends for very long.
> 
> FWIW you're the leading poster in here with 19 posts followed by Enki with 5. Maybe you should start posting in the talk to yourself thread.
> 
> Fjones, maybe you should reigster under a new handle: Reductio ad absurdum.




I was able to decipher what he said (as you noted), my gripe was with the way he said it.  

So, I had 19 of the first 56 posts.  That means others posted 37 times.   I can throw everyone else's hackneyed cliche back at them.  IF you don't like it, leave.  If you don't like me or the way I post, then don't post in the thread I created.  

As much as people seem to dislike my methods, they cannot rsist saying something.  They aren't bothering to follow their own advice.  If they keep getting into arguments with me, they much like it, why else do they do it?  

THe fact is, they are no better at following their advice than I am.


----------



## Fjones

That_Guy said:


> You forgot to say how modest you are.



Modesty over such an overrated attribute.  I am not goign to pretend I am less capable at something than I am.  

When I suck at something, I'll admit it and when I am good at something, I am not going to pretend otherwise.  

Where the hell does modesty get you?  If I am choosing between two people and one of them says, "Yeah, I am good" and the other says, "I am okay, I  guess." I am picking the first one.


----------



## Fjones

Damien said:


> Fjones, maybe you should reigster under a new handle: Reductio ad absurdum.



"Reductio Ad Absurdum" does not mean what you think it means.  

Look it up.  It's actually a valid form of proof or argument where you derive a contradiction from the premises, thss showing that one or more of the premises must be false.


----------



## Xorkoth

Fjones said:


> Where the hell does modesty get you?



Well, you claim to want to change the way you interact with others.  It would help.



Fjones said:


> Everyone keeps asking me "How."  I am confused.   Am I being invited to be an administrator?
> 
> I would have to sit down and THINK for awhile to come up with some "how"s.  If I were an admin, I would do exactly that, but I am not, nor will I be, as I am not suited to the task and it would be insane to ever put me on staff.



It's easy to talk when it's not your responsiblity.  You're making the assumption that no one here is thinking about how.

It's really easy to talk, but never as easy to put that talk into action.

I think The Lounge is a symptom of the sickness of our society.  Do you wish it to get better?  So do I.  But I'll tell you one thing I know.  The way to do it isn't by getting all caught up in ego games, with others and especially with yourself.  The way to fix it is to address your individual interactions with the people around you.  You can only change yourself, but through that change, you can inspire change in others.


----------



## alasdairm

Fjones said:


> Everyone keeps asking me "How."  I am confused.   Am I being invited to be an administrator?
> 
> I would have to sit down and THINK for awhile to come up with some "how"s.  If I were an admin, I would do exactly that, but I am not, nor will I be, as I am not suited to the task and it would be insane to ever put me on staff.


now i'm confused . i'm not inviting you to join the staff - i'm doing you the courtesy of listening to your opinion. staff and bluelighters alike shape what happens here.


Fjones said:


> So, my best chance to influence policy is as a regular bluelighter.  The problem is, I don't feel confident that people really care what I have to say, so why should I bother?


i care what you say. isn't the fact that we're even having this discussion indicative of this?

if you don't feel you should bother, why are you participating at all? you obviously care about being heard on some level or, one assumes, you would not have started this thread or posted 25 replies in it.

if you don't feel you should bother, why should we bother listening to you?


Fjones said:


> Apply the same rules from other forums.  If someone is violating a rule, he is violating a rule.


all forums in bluelight are not the same - do you think that the rules which apply in the dark side should apply in drug culture? bluelight has grown organically and the atmosphere in different forums has also grown organically too - being shaped by staff and participants of those forums along the way.

bluelight has been around nearly 10 years. you've been a bluelighter for 3 months - *2.5%* of that time. while i value your opinion, can you understand that some people might be a little put out by your crashing in here like a bull in a china shop telling us all how it should be? that approach also does a disservice to the evolution of individual forums and their cultures. 


Fjones said:


> If someone sees a funny thread in the lounge, he should be able to participate without having to worry about being flamed or trolled.


what's funny to you is not funny to others. what's not funny to you is funny to others. why should your definition of what's funny prevail? 


Fjones said:


> Another how -- stronger consequences.   This will deter the undesirable behavior.


define "_stronger consequences_".


Fjones said:


> People have hassled me in other forums.


if that's the case you should report these posts and let the staff do their jobs. if you're not happy with the action taken (or lack of action taken) escalate the issue as appropriate.


Fjones said:


> And it just creates bad feelings between members of the same site, which can lead to tension and problems.


certain discussions in ce&p and nw events create bad feelings between members. can those too?


Fjones said:


> I don't get it.


indeed.  


Fjones said:


> Look, either we care about the site or we don't.


what does that even mean? nobody has a monopoly on caring for bluelight. different people care for bluelight differently and that care manifests itself in different ways.[/QUOTE]
alasdair


----------



## DudeImnotDAVE

(DIND steps out of her silly suit for a minute)

Jones-

Several years ago I moderated a board with about 5k members. It was a thankless job. It isn't as easy as it looks from your side.

We could go on and on ( oh- you already did!) about whats wrong with the lounge, but let me give you something to think about.

On my board, there was no lounge. No lounge= no place for trolls. No place for trolls means trolls are every place.

Are you following me?

Now, instead of seeing them pop up in BDD or ADD or worse, TDS-they have a place to go.

As an adult, I have a choice. I choose not to read threads that are offensive, hence do not feed the trolls.

Was I offended by the racial slurs? Um, yeah since my ex is african american, I was pissed by one remark that was made. But its my choice to realize its just bait and CHOOSE not to take it.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but if you don't like it, don't read it. Besides, what MORE do you WANT from the mods? Today has been spent explaining and arguing with you over the way they do their jobs, when in fact I am SURE they had better things to do on this site.

I respect your arguement, but I think its time for you to step back and look at the big picture.


----------



## TheLoveBandit

I've never developed good trolling technique, too much a waste of my time.  But I have to laugh at the amount of effort put forth in this thread to discuss the discussion as opposed to the 'problem'.

Thanks for the laugh, but again, I'd rather put my time towards addressing the subject, not the participants.



> Everyone keeps asking me "How." I am confused. Am I being invited to be an administrator?
> 
> I would have to sit down and THINK for awhile to come up with some "how"s. If I were an admin, I would do exactly that, but I am not, nor will I be, as I am not suited to the task and it would be insane to ever put me on staff.
> 
> So, my best chance to influence policy is as a regular bluelighter. The problem is, I don't feel confident that people really care what I have to say, so why should I bother?



With the structure we have, there are a limited few heads in the admin room.  Yes, we have a lot of experience, but by no means are we omniscient nor omnipresent.  As such, we generally are very open to ideas or suggestions from anyone.  We can't think of everything, and appreciate the ideas generated by anyone willing to put forth the thought.  A bluelighter may be limited in the extent to which they can enact a change (what they post, where they post, etc), but by participating in the discussion - and more importantly offering suggestions of 'how' then working with those in the thread on refining any 'how' suggestions....that's a real benefit.  Btw, thank you for making the attempt to address some 'how', as I don't see too many other people willing to do this right now - either they are worn down by the times this question has come up, or perhaps they are more interested in arguing the words used to hold the discussion.

Alasdair has linked some previous discussions in SUPPORT on how the LOUNGE ought to be managed differently.  Does any of that still seem relevant?  Has anyone bothered to read it (aside from those of us who have lived it...repeatedly)?  Has the place become worse (according to anyone who's been here more than 6 months, it is worse....it always is, regardless of when you joined and when that 6 month period runs out).  So, there is the ever present 'it was better in my day' to which many of us have gotten sick of hearing - it evolves, but does it really get much worse?  And if so 'HOW' can that be addressed, reasonably?  I mean, one could squeeze it in an iron grip until it bled PLUR.  Or one could shut it down completely, and commit a slow suicide by either killing off the sense of community that keeps us glued together or squishing that content into other forums where it is actually cracked down on harder.  Then there was the question of creating a secondary forum, one more 'high brow' and less 'riff-raff' oriented, but that's never really been pursued because it doesn't address 'the issue'.

We say the forum is what you (collective members) make it with your content and comments.  We say the mods, who have a helluva job to herd cats without stepping in cat shit along the way, are doing the best they can and they only act when something becomes egregious.    This is where we are....and how we got to where we are.  Relying on members to make content, and mods to clean up the shit.  We've just culled a lot of the shit makers out of the place, so it ought to be a little better - a little less postwhorination all over the place and more breathing room for better content and comments.  So, in that regard, we have actually done something.  But can we do more?  And what suggestions and ideas of 'how' can anyone else provide?

Anyone is welcome to continue to hold their view that the place is fine as-is, in equal proportion to those who hold the view that it is a blight that needs serious attention.  However, your opinions are just that - opinions.  For those that feel it is fine, is there an objection to any efforts to improve it, and would you have any?  Even chocolate cake is better with some ice cream, so could the place be better and how?  And for those that see it as a cesspool - share your thoughts on HOW it could be remedied or addressed.  Don't just bitch and say it sucks, don't just shrug and say you'll live with (or love) the way it currently is for now....because in 6 months it'll have gone downhill in your opinion as well, trust me.  Anyone and everyone is welcome to offer suggestions - and enact them to whatever your position will allow you.  But at least offer the suggestions to those that can do more but may not be able to think of such ideas.  All you lose is some thought for awhile, and what you gain could be a better place for all of us today and tomorrow (even if it's the best damn place on the web already!).


----------



## Damien

Fjones said:


> "Reductio Ad Absurdum" does not mean what you think it means.
> 
> Look it up.  It's actually a valid form of proof or argument where you derive a contradiction from the premises, thss showing that one or more of the premises must be false.


You got trolled. 


Fjones said:


> If you don't like me or the way I post, then don't post in the thread I created.


Word. Peace.


----------



## Arnold

To put a different spin on it all.

Fjones you are and have been depressed for a long time as you're well aware. 
That means you go over and over stuff untill you drive yourself mad. This debating till the death for 50 pages doesn't do your depression any favours, no matter how smart you think you are.
Depression doesn't help in being able to think clear headed admittedly but ...

If you want to get better you got to learn to stop the overthinking. You're not a 21 year old kid that is on a road of self discovery still whose brain hasn't fully matured yet. 
I know you've seen psychiatrists etc...but you might consider cbt which you were enquiring about not that long ago. Still lots of different avenues for you to try.

Unless you're comfortably "numb" in your bubble and want to remain like that? Seen that at work in a 43 year old male before whose ego wouldn't allow him to become better no matter what you say/try.


----------



## Rogue Robot

While I have no issues with this being brought up, as TLB said, several members were culled from the lounge only days ago.  I really don't think it's fair for the Lounge (staff, members, etc.) to make any kind of assessment regarding how it is when we've just gotten rid of most, if not all, of the riff-raff.


----------



## Fjones

Xorkoth said:


> Well, you claim to want to change the way you interact with others.  It would help.
> 
> 
> 
> It's easy to talk when it's not your responsiblity.  You're making the assumption that no one here is thinking about how.
> 
> It's really easy to talk, but never as easy to put that talk into action.
> 
> I think The Lounge is a symptom of the sickness of our society.  Do you wish it to get better?  So do I.  But I'll tell you one thing I know.  The way to do it isn't by getting all caught up in ego games, with others and especially with yourself.  The way to fix it is to address your individual interactions with the people around you.  You can only change yourself, but through that change, you can inspire change in others.





That's a fair point.  

I don't know why I get so caught up in this. I mean, it's kind of like a game right?   Everyone knows I can be set off easily, and that when I do, I will probably overreact.  So people playfully poke me, and I overreact, and the game goes on, and everyone is happy.  

That's the only reason we all continue to play the game, right?


----------



## MazDan

ENOUGH.

FFS.

This thread is a disgrace.

In fact this thread belongs in the lounge as its just a littany of childish carry on.

Sadly there are only a very small number of posts that are actually discussing the topic which is a raised concern about the lounge.

The rest, including many from people I would have thought knew better are simply personal attacks.

Bluelight members should have a right to have a say about what they think without having to cop that crap. And yes the OP should stick to his topic as well.

If the best that anybody can do to put there case that the OP is wrong is by attacking his person then for my money it helps prove the OPs point.



If you were here in my house then I would grab the lot of you and bang your heads together or at least throw slippers at you.

Now grow the fuck up the lot of you.

If a smod has five hours to spare maybe they can remove 99% of the posts in this thread.




For the record I like the idea of a second lounge..........one for the grown ups amongst us.  that way the current lounge will have a lesser impact on those who just want somewhere social to hang out for a while.


----------



## Fjones

Damien said:


> You got trolled.
> 
> Word. Peace.



Damnit!  I never know when I am being trolled or when peopel are being serious.  Someone needs to point me towards the trolling 101 thread or something.  

(Joking!    I now fear that every post I make will be taken as though I am upset or angry.  I kid sometimes too.


----------



## Fjones

Hey everyone -- I just glanced over the last few posts and There are some good points that I want to respond to.  I don't like when people ignore a good point or statement, so I always try to respond when people make one.  

I cannot respond right now because some friends are arriving momentarily.  We have plans for the weekend that I hope will help put me in a better mood.  So when I have a chance I will respond to the last few posts.  

I do hope we can keep this open and stay on topic and I will respond respectfully and politely.  Let's see if we can succeed in steering this back in the right direction.  
For my part, I apologize for my role in allowing this to get out of hand.


----------



## ebola?

> WHY THE FUCK DOES A HARM REDUCTION SITE, and a great one at that, have a cesspool like the lounge?



because the lounge-denizens have made it so.  Mod's can hardly create good posters out of nowhere.

Perhaps you should consider 2nd opinion instead?

ebola


----------



## Pillthrill

Fjones, you know I'm on the same page as you with the lounge. But if I know that this can't be won and when to quit...maybe you should to. Chalk it up to stupidity, stay away from it and if ppl get bad enough hit ignore and remove them from "your world". 
I was once told that if someone is driving like a jackass, let them by you and go have their accident somewhere else...
With the lounge, just let it go by, and forget about it the best you can and let them go be an ass and hurt someone else.


----------



## Lysis

Speaking of cesspool crap, there's plenty of posts in SLR that make me cringe.  I'll even be the first to admit that I don't go into the nudie thread because  it's not my style.  But, ya know, this place has been around since 1999(?) and I've been here since 2008.  

There's plenty of other places for me to frequent, and if I see a thread in the SLR that I know is gonna gross me out, then I just don't click on it and my experience is no different than as if it isn't even there.  When you're new, the Lounge is intimidating.  There's obviously a sense of community in there and you need to not take things so seriously when you go there.  

If you really dissect the people who get flamed horribly, take a real good look who gets flamed - it's people who are new who decide to tell everyone what assholes they are or who rarely go to the Lounge other than to tell it what shit it is.  If you look at who jumps in there and just joins in with stupid banter, it's just fun and games.  The people who get flamed are the ones who either A) Say how crappy BL is, B) Say how the Lounge is shit, or C) go on a personal war flaming everyone.  There's a couple poster there now who are obviously just trolling and even seem to enjoy the flaming.


----------



## RedLeader

I will say this, the subjective nature of what is and what is not allowed in The Lounge on BL is a complete joke. People have said it before, but a LOT of stuff is let through that is clearly against the rules as linked-to on the forum homepage. And with this loss of rigidity in rule-enforcement, it directly leads to a subjective fashion through which rule-violations are handled. And anytime that the people who uphold the rules actually rule without an iron-fist, it opens doors to favoritism, targeting, and other theories, all which combine into a general view of those in power working with their own agendas. So yes, as it stands people actually don't know what's right or wrong in the Lounge, so who can REALLY blame attitudes anywhere from confustion to disdain over situations such as this with CG. 

The Administrators of BL, I believe, need to objectifty the rules for The Lounge and be sure that the lounge mods don't give anybody breaks. And IMO clear numerical rules need to be made about how many warnings it takes to be banned, and how many temp bans lead to a perminent ban. Because right now it seems to be predominantly subjective, where the staff weighs the good and the bad of a given user benhind closed doors (staff thread or otherwise), and people will respond to this in the same way as described above.


----------



## alasdairm

Redleader said:


> I will say this, the subjective nature of what is and what is not allowed in The Lounge on BL is a complete joke. People have said it before, but a LOT of stuff is let through that is clearly against the rules as linked-to on the forum homepage.


i don't want to single you out but you have never reported a lounge post so, on paper, 'we' think that redleader is fine with what's going on in the lounge. there's a mechanism for bringing to our attention posts which you think are a problem. you've chosen not to use it so, in many cases, it's hard to reconcile people telling us "_the lounge sucks_" with the fact that they chose not to do anything about it. further, the burden is not great - there's a button right next to a post and all people have to do is click it, type "_i think this post breaks guidelines_" and press a button.


Redleader said:


> So yes, as it stands people actually don't know what's right or wrong in the Lounge, so who can REALLY blame attitudes anywhere from confustion to disdain over situations such as this with CG.


it's my opinion that the lounge staff - and the lounge community in general - have a good grasp of what goes and what does not. those who were recently banned had over 30 warnings and numerous temp bans between them. to hear them say (or you say on their behalf) "_we didn't know we were doing anything wrong_" is cynical nonsense. they knew exactly that what they were doing was wrong but did it anyway. do you think that writing "_atri is a nigger lover_" is acceptable?

cg had 13 warnings and numerous temporary bans. at what point does somebody get the message that posts like that are unacceptable?    


Redleader said:


> The Administrators of BL, I believe, need to objectifty the rules for The Lounge and be sure that the lounge mods don't give anybody breaks. And IMO clear numerical rules need to be made about how many warnings it takes to be banned, and how many temp bans lead to a perminent ban.


i have never been a fan of mandatory sentencing because it removes discretionary power from those who are closest to the issues - the forum staff. we've (senior staff have) been accused of being too authoritarian. damned if we do and damned if we don't? sure.

we prefer, generally, to defer to forum staff and having mandatory limits removes that power. further, i made the point to fjones about different standards of behaviour across different forums and having a rigid '3 warnings and you are banned' approach creates problems there too. we could mitigate this with a more subtly defined set of warnings which have different values in different forums but there is work to be done there and that time would be much better spent on other tasks which are more central to the mission of the site.

alasdair


----------



## tripmonkey505

i really dont see how the shit that goes down really affects the forum as a whole. there might be a few isolated incidents but in general it usually stays in there and people should realize that its different than the rest of the forum and the mods in there seem to do a pretty good job keeping it from negatively affecting anyones experience trying to get answers about drugs and shit. stop fuckin complaining.


----------



## zephyr

Pillthrill said:


> No, I just wasn't thinking ahead. Nothing new.
> But I still do believe there should be SAFE lounge threads.



This statement is very self serving. The lounge, like the rest of this site, does not revolve around you. If you choose to launch in to a thread making claims of unfair treatment by mods of other forums, cry and moan for sympathy as usual and get the same response you get from dark siders except a lot harsher: too bad. Post at your own risk. You have been around long enough to know that the lounge is what it is.

In fact, I put it to you that you deliberately post the way you do, say the things you say in order to come off looking like a poor, picked on sap who constantly needs attention and help but never accepts it or improves.

When people, mods especially, realise your game of envoking a pity party and come down hard on you, you respond and bounce back for a while saying everything is great and youre going to treatment and all is good.

Them when the positive attention wears off you again start your "woe as me" shit. You shit stir to look like a victim. You are not a victim. You just want attention and its obvious.

I think you mimic a lot of other peoples issues when they seem to be the centre of attention because of that issue.

The lounge does not have to bow to your demand for attention. But we can pull the piss at your constant demanding pressure for it when people in other forums have to walk the fine line of politeness with you. 

A fair few people and myself call bull shit on your issues. You are just here as you cant be bothered actually doing something about your
Self diagnosed disorders and i think you waste the valuable time of Dark Side posters and mods who could put their entire life into helping you and it would never be enough.

The lounge is a place where you can be called out as a fake due to your own behaviour where you have to be taken seriously regardless in Dark side. I hope  you get help for this behaviour before you get banned again.


----------



## michael

i only skimmed this stupid, stupid thread, but i'm sure someone by this point has invited fjones to post whatever threads he feels worthy of whatever discussion he wishes to have in the lounge.  or in one of the harm reduction forums.  this is a harm reduction website, after all?

perhaps someone else will even like them and post in them.


----------



## michael

shit, never started a single thread in any forum related to harm reduction.  that's a surprise.


----------



## junglejuice

Fjones...if you only browsed BL through a mod's view you'd be shocked at how much keyboard diarreah some of these fools post. The sheer number of reported and unapproved posts are a lot higher than you think. The staff keeps this place clean and civil. Sometimes it's as bad as being a mop boy at the peepshow. It's a thankless but necessary job. Your view is really chronologically limited here, and imo, this site is in the best hands it has ever been in.

Just mellow out and watch how things shape up...things are starting to get better

:D


----------



## zephyr

Lounge has been a bit shit because it was let go that way. Not much reign was used to reel CG et all in. This was a moderation issue, but not knowing what discussions were had, if any, about how to pull the lounge out of
That particular direction, I cant criticise the mods at all. 

The forums are for all different things and aspects of personalities.
Lounge posters are the same people who post in Dark Side, Other drugs, SLR,  everywhere. There are rules to follow like everywhere else, but the beauty of the Lounge is- its like a truth serum forum. Other areas demand seriousness and to pamper (at times) people who need it, example being pill thrill. But you can tell from restrained responses she gets that if she pulls the same shit where things are more liberal- she will not be met with the responses she gets elsewhere. Because its what we really think of her selfish behaviour that absorbs the time and patience of the staff and members of serious forums. Those members include Lounge folk. Dont bring your pity party to the Lounge PT. Its being called out for the fake waste of time it is.


----------



## Rorschach

Fjones said:


> This is a harm reduction website.  The Lounge is a degenerate forum where some of the more contemptible individuals go to act like total assholes and pass it off as "it's the lounge!  It isn't serious."
> 
> 
> WHY THE FUCK DOES A HARM REDUCTION SITE, and a great one at that, have a cesspool like the lounge?



For a site like this, outlet is needed.  Should do self a favor and stay out of Lounge if you find it bad.


----------



## PoOkIeHeAd

grow thicker skin cuz you are not in the majority here. 

dont think your gonna win this one. 

lounge is the most active forum by far on this forum. its a fan favorite so to speak


----------



## alasdairm

Pillthrill said:


> But I still do believe there should be SAFE lounge threads.


what do you mean by safe?

the lounge staff have never made any secret of their ability to keep threads focused if that's what the op wants. if you start a thread in the lounge and you don't want it to drift, all you have to do is report the post or drop the lounge staff a pm asking them to be extra vigilant about off-topic posts in the thread.

the lounge is no different than any other forum in this regard (beyond the natural tendency of lounge threads to often be more generalised and less topic-centric than threads in more focused forums).

alasdair


----------



## claire22

This argument is ridiculous..
Sure, sometimes people go over the top. They face the consequences.
*Don't like it - don't post there. It really is that simple.*
I think the mods actually do a really good job in the lounge, recurring misbehavers are dealt with accordingly. 
The mods there have a really difficult job and deserve more credit than they get.
The majority is tongue in cheek humour.


----------



## drugfukkdrockstar

Pillthrill said:


> Fjones, there is no winning. They will keep their stupid lounge. Hopefully some
> off topic" non-trolling, mehm threads such as pic threads will stay free of that and other shit.



If all you do is go through life expecting everyone to cater to your needs and change accordingly to your demands then you are always going to be one very unhappy woman.


----------



## L2R

bluelight is not "G" rated. 

nb: the lounge tag line warns that it contains lighthearted and off topic banter and to post at your own risk. 

if you feel that a certain comment is not "light hearted" please report it and it will be assessed by the fine staff there. if it is by a poster you are unfamiliar with and it is not edited, it means that it is known that that person is not serious. you are welcome to PM the staff at any time to discuss anything or anyone. 

if you do not like the type of humour others use, well, the place is for everyone, so you'll have to get over it. a good approach would be to apply the kind of humour you would like to see. at times it feels futile but don't be discouraged. things catch on slowly when dealing with so many people. 


again: bluelight is not "G" rated


----------



## Kul69

My problem with the lounge has always been that what you're allowed to say completely depends on who you are. A long time ago I posted in the lounge making fun of randycaver in the EXACT same way she talked shit to someone else there and it was not a friendly thing between friends. I received a warning because of it (from randycaver) but randycaver was a mod there so she gets away with whatever. Mods close threads they simply don't like, the "regulars" all adhere to a certain mindset and if you don't follow you'll be ostracized.

Also, its mostly the same threads being redone that have existed for years now and random rantings by the regulars or "lounge drama." Anything outside of this is quickly closed or hijacked by regulars as a place to talk about their bullshit.

The lounge is like 4chan. Anonymous + lax rules = shit every time. Sometimes this shit is entertaining but its not the most fun to try to start a serious or non-shit topic in which is why there are other forums to post those things in.

In short..

The lounge will never be anything other than what it is because anonymous people with no rules turns into a bunch of retards yelling at each other and reposting the same shit over and over very quickly (4chan). The only way to change this would be adding rules that would make it just another forum like Second Opinion or whatever.

So, simply don't post there or conform to the nature of the forum.

Oh removing mods from the lounge might be a good idea too. Of course, things like child porn or drug sources or whatever should be moderated. However, the mods remove the "open" atmosphere that the lounge is supposed to have by closing threads in what seems like a random way sometimes and choosing favorites who get to bend the rules or get away with more than others at times.

Oh and I search through my posts in the lounge (all 77 of them, whoa, 12 a year) and found a couple examples of what I mean...

Why were these two threads I made closed? They don't violate any of the lounge "rules" other than the mods apparently didn't like them.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=401655&page=2
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=400767&page=2

This is what I mean by what you can do depends on who you are. If I was a regular poster who made thousands of posts a month I could easily make a thread like this that stayed open forever. The lounge pretends to be a carefree do whatever place "post at your own risk" open forum but even when you don't break any "rules" the mods can be all up in your shit and so can the regulars.

Either admit its a somewhat Nazi environment or leave it open the way the stupid forum description says its supposed to be. Don't have any moderators except some "hidden mods" that just keep child porn/sources/other extreme content under control.

Also, I've been on bluelight since the very start under a different name. However, I posted in the lounge often and apparently upset some of the psychotic regulars there who started following me around the forum talking shit. So, I decided to change my name and basically never post there again which is why I have an average of 1 post a month in the lounge but nearing 3,000 posts total. I'd like to know how many of the lounge regulars have post counts that aren't 99% one liner bullshit posted in the lounge.


----------



## robcypher

féminin_grâce said:


> Hear, Hear!! Thank you for the courage to speak out! This site of the lounge gives a bad name to the whole Bluelight forum, nothing less then a porn site at times, and even some of the avatars should be banned. I am a visitor tot the country I am at present, and I use the library to get to Bluelight. They monitor Internet usage and they shut the browser the minute I get on the Bluelight site. Each time I read posts a certain avatar comes on, that should only be allowed to be on porn sites. There are children on the adjoining computers also and I find myself covering the screen. How discraceful, to be allowed all this on this forum.
> The members should not be allowed to have such total freedom to act in such a way that it disgraces the whole of the forum.
> I am only using the forum because there are very educated and intelligent people getting into worthwile discussions and it makes it viable also when it is harm reduction advise to people who are endangering themselves using drugs. But pornography and going out of control with what they want to do of the forum has made me wonder who runs the show, the forum or the members. Without rules to follow people become animals.
> Place some rules, and remove the pornography!!
> Well said Fjones!!!



woah, I thought french people loved porn. this is a mindblower.


----------



## Rogue Robot

féminin_grâce said:


> Hear, Hear!! Thank you for the courage to speak out! This site of the lounge gives a bad name to the whole Bluelight forum, nothing less then a porn site at times, and even some of the avatars should be banned. I am a visitor tot the country I am at present, and I use the library to get to Bluelight. They monitor Internet usage and they shut the browser the minute I get on the Bluelight site. Each time I read posts a certain avatar comes on, that should only be allowed to be on porn sites. There are children on the adjoining computers also and I find myself covering the screen. How discraceful, to be allowed all this on this forum.
> The members should not be allowed to have such total freedom to act in such a way that it disgraces the whole of the forum.



If you have issues with a person's choice of avatar, you can turn that feature off in your user CP under settings & options and then edit options.

If "porn" is an issue to you browsing the site, then perhaps not going to the lounge when you're on a public computer is your best bet.  the only "porn" that i've seen in there is the nudie thread which is pretty self explanatory.  the mods and users are generally pretty good about putting NSFW in the title of the thread to advise those who do not wish to see it not to enter.

I use a public computer at school, and while my fellow students could really give a rats ass about tits & ass, i'd rather not have to deal with it.  same goes if i'm using my personal laptop in a public place.  i know that by going into some threads that there may be nudity or a disgusting picture, so i don't go.  if you see something that is questionable, then use the REPORT button.


----------



## ThaiDie4

féminin_grâce said:


> Hmm, that is quite a generalization don't you think? Who you are and what you like comes down to values and ethics. I don't believe that sexuality or the body, comes down to the point of being so disgraced and losing all respect exposing ones genitalia on the internet, at a forum!



That's pretty offensive. I have personally posted in the nude forum, and I'm sick of hearing you talk shit about it just because it doesn't match up with your "superior" morals.

You act as though posing naked = losing respect for yourself.. definently not true. I think you're the one making a generalization. I totally respect myself and my body. It's not like I'm some hooker on the corner.. I don't whore around or sell myself. A lot of people (including me) think that the naked body is a beautiful thing - I don't mean mine, just nudity in general- and it's only as "dirty" as you choose to think of it. You can have your own opinion about things without stating it in such a rude way, you know.

You indirectly attacked me with your last post ^ and you insulted my intelligence in another thread, and frankly I just think you need to chill out a little bit. You come off kind of like a know it all.


----------



## Nibiru

Words cannot express how I have come to feel about this argument.


----------



## fizzle

féminin_grâce said:


> Hmm, that is quite a generalization don't you think? Who you are and what you like comes down to values and ethics. I don't believe that sexuality or the body, comes down to the point of being so disgraced and losing all respect exposing ones genitalia on the internet, at a forum!



My oh my... this thread has been pretty painful to read already (i.e. *facepalm* after about every other post) but you coming in here, brand new, not even taking the time to learn your way around the site or tools, and already complaining that a DRUG SITE has things that you find improper or offensive?? I dont even know what to say to that. Once you actually figure out the buttons and settings, maybe then your complaints will be taken more seriously.

Also, as has been pointed out several times here, if you dont like it, dont go there. If you are in a public place with children around, dont venture into the lounge. Seems pretty simple to me, its a big website.


----------



## felix

Fjones said:


> my best bet is to avoid the lounge, which I do


Ah, it would appear that a solution has already been found to your problem. I'll read the rest of the thread later.


----------



## Too many doses

féminin_grâce said:


> Hear, Hear!! Thank you for the courage to speak out! This site of the lounge gives a bad name to the whole Bluelight forum, nothing less then a porn site at times, and even some of the avatars should be banned. I am a visitor tot the country I am at present, and I use the library to get to Bluelight. They monitor Internet usage and they shut the browser the minute I get on the Bluelight site. Each time I read posts a certain avatar comes on, that should only be allowed to be on porn sites. There are children on the adjoining computers also and I find myself covering the screen. How discraceful, to be allowed all this on this forum.
> The members should not be allowed to have such total freedom to act in such a way that it disgraces the whole of the forum.
> I am only using the forum because there are very educated and intelligent people getting into worthwile discussions and it makes it viable also when it is harm reduction advise to people who are endangering themselves using drugs. But pornography and going out of control with what they want to do of the forum has made me wonder who runs the show, the forum or the members. Without rules to follow people become animals.
> Place some rules, and remove the pornography!!
> Well said Fjones!!!



Have you ever heard of free speech?


----------



## Rorschach

People who have problem with Lounge make me sick.  Those who complain contribute nothing.  Should do Bluelight favor and leave.


----------



## felix

Nibiru said:


> Words cannot express how I have come to feel about this argument.


What he said. 

21 off-topic and/or abusive posts removed. 

Fjones: you are making a complaint about people arguing with you in the Lounge in exactly the same manner as you make posts in the Lounge that cause people to argue with you. Your first post was not exactly very diplomatic or constructive and then you responded to That Guy like this: 



Fjones said:


> Useful input from one of the failures himself.  Nicely done sir.  Thanks for contributing.


Nice going. 


			
				Fjones said:
			
		

> WHY THE FUCK DOES A HARM REDUCTION SITE, and a great one at that, have a cesspool like the lounge?


Why does a harm reduction site have a forum for discussing films? Or music? Or legal issues? 

Some people have been banned recently. Let's see if that makes a difference, shall we?

Oh, and everyone else: remember this is a thread ABOUT the Lounge; it isn't the Lounge itself.


----------



## purplefirefly

The argument that those who don't like the Lounge should just stay away from it is completely and utterly useless. No one should desire change because there are a few who don't think that things should change? I hope the people making this "argument" don't apply it to other aspects of their lives such as government or civil liberties for example.


----------



## Lysis

purplefirefly said:


> The argument that those who don't like the Lounge should just stay away from it is completely and utterly useless. No one should desire change because there are a few who don't think that things should change? I hope the people making this "argument" don't apply it to other aspects of their lives such as government or civil liberties for example.



You're applying an intrusion on rights to reading a forum?  These two things are completely different.  

Do you think I should complain because I have no interest in nudie pics that I should push to have it removed from the Lounge?  What kind of intrusion of rights and enjoyment happens when I just don't click the link?  Do I need to click the link? Is it in my face and forcing me to read it? Is the nudie thread causing me harm in some way? Am I forced to read the nudie thread when I come to BL?


----------



## chucky1432

Arnold is right, Fjones you have been depressed for quite sometime and this isn't helping your depression.  I think CBT therapy can work wonders for you, but you have to be willing to do the work.  Don't worry about this issue anymore, it will be okay


----------



## purplefirefly

Lysis said:


> You're applying an intrusion on rights to reading a forum?  These two things are completely different.
> 
> Do you think I should complain because I have no interest in nudie pics that I should push to have it removed from the Lounge?  What kind of intrusion of rights and enjoyment happens when I just don't click the link?  Do I need to click the link? Is it in my face and forcing me to read it? Is the nudie thread causing me harm in some way? Am I forced to read the nudie thread when I come to BL?



So when people post and people verbally assault them then that's okay? The person being assaulted doesn't have to post, but the assaulter doesn't have to post either.

The street goes both ways.


----------



## zephyr

^Anyone is free to post what they feel is appropriate in any forum. If you dont like what you see, post what you think should be good lounge content. If others think that post is good, it will get appropriate responses. However if you post dumb shit, that will also get the appropriate response.

Depends on how sensitive you are.


----------



## Lysis

purplefirefly said:


> So when people post and people verbally assault them then that's okay? The person being assaulted doesn't have to post, but the assaulter doesn't have to post either.
> 
> The street goes both ways.



Perhaps my idea of verbal assault and yours are different.  When I post on a forum and people say "Hey, you're a dumb fuckhead." I can't say I particularly like the comment, but how does that really affect me other than bruise my ego?  If someone on a forum thousands of miles away tells me that I'm a stupid fuckhead, yeah it sucks, but it doesn't hurt me. 

I'm not saying that all the forums should be chaos.  The focus forums are well moderated and I wouldn't be here much if every one of the forums were filled with Lounge crap.  But that is the beauty of being on a forum where there are options - play and laugh and verbally beat each other up a bit or keep to the focus forums where the talk is moderated and more serious.  

The BL experience is completely your own.  If you don't like porn, you don't go to a porn site.  If you don't like chaotic forums, you stay away from those forums.  If you don't like anything on the internet, you just don't go there.   There is nothing lost by you and they are not intruding on your experience.


----------



## L2R

^Indeed. 

The lounge isn't a substitute for real life interactions or therapy. Those just seeking encouragement or blind praise are simply barking up the wrong tree. 

With regard to "verbal assault", the lounge has actually been far nicer over the last few years than was previously the case. I regularly go there and have not seen a classic "assrape" for a long time.

Again, the lounge is not "g" rated.


----------



## tobala

^ It comes in at about PG-13 in my estimate...


----------



## Infinite Jest

purplefirefly said:


> The argument that those who don't like the Lounge should just stay away from it is completely and utterly useless. No one should desire change because there are a few who don't think that things should change? I hope the people making this "argument" don't apply it to other aspects of their lives such as government or civil liberties for example.



I agree with this. If we really believe that argument, why have mods at all?

Don't like spam? Don't read it.
Don't like someone racially insulting you in CE&P? Don't read it?
Don't like off-topic posts? Don't read them.
Don't like someone posting sources? Don't read them.

Let BL be exactly what people want it to be.

Of  course, then it will be the lowest common denominator, because it takes far more time to create something useful than to post copypasta or memes or "lol faggot", so the latter will naturally drown out the former.


----------



## alasdairm

Infinite Jest said:


> I agree with this. If we really believe that argument, why have mods at all?
> 
> Don't like spam? Don't read it.
> Don't like someone racially insulting you in CE&P? Don't read it?
> Don't like off-topic posts? Don't read them.
> Don't like someone posting sources? Don't read them.
> 
> Let BL be exactly what people want it to be.
> 
> Of  course, then it will be the lowest common denominator, because it takes far more time to create something useful than to post copypasta or memes or "lol faggot", so the latter will naturally drown out the former.


redundancy.

i'm a snowboarder and, in common with all ski resorts i have visited, the one at which i work asks people to follow the responsibility code.

item #2 in the responsibility code is: "*People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.*"

item #4 in the responsibility code is: "*Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others. *"

clearly, if people always did #2, there would be no need for #4 and vice versa.

people have a huge amount of control over their own bluelight experience and choosing to avoid a forum which mostly angers them is one way to address the issue. i know if i'm flicking through the channels and i come across a show i dislike, i change the channel - it's much better for my blood pressure than continuing to watch a show i don't even like while shouting at the tv about how much i dislike it 

if, however, there's a genuine desire to change things, then engage in the process and work towards change. there have been some significant changes in the way bluelight operates since i've been a member so it does happen. saving up months of anger then throwing a temper tantrum here or elsewhere has never been a particularly constructive way to address any issue.

alasdair


----------



## tambourine-man

The problem with Bluelight is that although it claims to have a specific mission - one of harm reduction - parts of the board have never really got accustomed to the fact that its role has diversified.  It's no longer the underground band that catered for a few people in the know, it went mainstream and developed into providing a range of social features for disparate groups of people.  Bluelight is the Coldplay of drugs boards.  Sorry, but it's true.  There's nothing wrong with that... it probably reaches more people that way and gets information "out there" far more effectively.  But this _will _ensure two facts with an absolute certainty:


That Buelight will periodically experience an inferiority complex - a biannual mid-life crisis of sorts where certain members seemingly endure some sort of existential crisis over the destiny of Bluelight and feel the need to place the weight of that burden on others in the most patronising and disdainful way possible.  This is prompted either by a senior member suddenly becoming evangelical about preventing the supposed impedance of harm reduction (which never lasts _that_ long) or by some relatively new member whinging about harsh treatment in a forum they barely know (which also results in people banging the harm reduction drum just as enthusiastically... and just as fleetingly).


Diversification and opening yourself up to a wider audience also means that you get a larger number of people who represent you - whether you like it or not.  A percentage of them will not be here to talk about drugs or the meaning of life, but to instead banter with eachother and behave like children.  Consequently, they might not be to your taste... and that's fine.  But the forums are big enough for us all to get what we need without being outraged at everything we don't agree with.  So a few people are offended by specific content... big deal!  I manage to move in and out of the Lounge (and other forums) and avoid engaging in the crap while focusing on the quality.  I don't find it _that_ difficult.  In fact, I like the fact that we have a broad community that tolerates asshattery enough to make the board constantly entertaining - no matter what mood I'm in.

So what, exactly, is stopping anyone else from achieving this feat of commonplace internet navigation?  Apart from their need to contribute to the burgeoning "offence industry" where we're encouraged to be angered and bitter over the slightest deviation from what we think is correct?
Get the fuck over the fact that Bluelight caters to a lot of very different people.  And while these people sometimes cross the line, the existing staff does a good job of keeping it contained in a comparatively small part of the site.  If you want homogeneity and top-down authoritarianism, go to Drugs Forum... and flush your sense of humour down the toilet while you're at it.


----------



## silentscience

^^^ so true. I think the mods (and others!) need to stop worrying about the Lounge. Obviously, if someone is posting stuff about rape, murder, child abuse etc etc, That's not cool! But some trolling is to be expected.


----------



## Rorschach

tambourine-man said:


> The problem with Bluelight is that although it claims to have a specific mission - one of harm reduction - parts of the board have never really got accustomed to the fact that its role has diversified.  It's no longer the underground band that catered for a few people in the know, it went mainstream and developed into providing a range of social features for disparate groups of people.  Bluelight is the Coldplay of drugs boards.  Sorry, but it's true.  There's nothing wrong with that... it probably reaches more people that way and gets information "out there" far more effectively.  But this _will _ensure two facts with an absolute certainty:
> 
> 
> That Buelight will periodically experience an inferiority complex - a biannual mid-life crisis of sorts where certain members seemingly endure some sort of existential crisis over the destiny of Bluelight and feel the need to place the weight of that burden on others in the most patronising and disdainful way possible.  This is prompted either by a senior member suddenly becoming evangelical about preventing the supposed impedance of harm reduction (which never lasts _that_ long) or by some relatively new member whinging about harsh treatment in a forum they barely know (which also results in people banging the harm reduction drum just as enthusiastically... and just as fleetingly).
> 
> 
> Diversification and opening yourself up to a wider audience also means that you get a larger number of people who represent you - whether you like it or not.  A percentage of them will not be here to talk about drugs or the meaning of life, but to instead banter with eachother and behave like children.  Consequently, they might not be to your taste... and that's fine.  But the forums are big enough for us all to get what we need without being outraged at everything we don't agree with.  So a few people are offended by specific content... big deal!  I manage to move in and out of the Lounge (and other forums) and avoid engaging in the crap while focusing on the quality.  I don't find it _that_ difficult.  In fact, I like the fact that we have a broad community that tolerates asshattery enough to make the board constantly entertaining - no matter what mood I'm in.
> 
> So what, exactly, is stopping anyone else from achieving this feat of commonplace internet navigation?  Apart from their need to contribute to the burgeoning "offence industry" where we're encouraged to be angered and bitter over the slightest deviation from what we think is correct?
> Get the fuck over the fact that Bluelight caters to a lot of very different people.  And while these people sometimes cross the line, the existing staff does a good job of keeping it contained in a comparatively small part of the site.  If you want homogeneity and top-down authoritarianism, go to Drugs Forum... and flush your sense of humour down the toilet while you're at it.



Excellent post.


----------



## MazDan

alasdairm said:


> item #2 in the responsibility code is: "*People ahead of you have the right of way. It is your responsibility to avoid them.*"
> 
> item #4 in the responsibility code is: "*Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others. *"
> 
> clearly, if people always did #2, there would be no need for #4 and vice versa.



These are great analogies.

Now lets apply it to the lounge more clearly.

What would you do if in example item #2 the people ahead are constantly riding very slowly.

Or in item # 4 the people behind are screaming abuse or covering you with snow as they "safely" go past?



Well thats sort of what happens in the lounge.

Not everyone snowboards at the same speed and some are a lot more agressive than others.




Should you now stop snowboarding?

Maybe become one of the slowboarders?

Become an abuser?

Or should the powers that be step in and take some control so that everyone can enjoy the slope?

Of course in a perfect world everyone would be considerate of others, but unfortunately those days are well and truly gone it would appear.


----------



## alasdairm

MazDan said:


> These are great analogies.
> 
> Now lets apply it to the lounge more clearly.
> 
> What would you do if in example item #2 the people ahead are constantly riding very slowly.
> 
> Or in item # 4 the people behind are screaming abuse or covering you with snow as they "safely" go past?
> 
> 
> 
> Well thats sort of what happens in the lounge.
> 
> Not everyone snowboards at the same speed and some are a lot more agressive than others..


i didn't quote those code items to be analogous of the lounge, rather to address simon's point about suspending rules altogether. i was simply showing that moderation on the part of both staff and users go hand in hand (the same way rule #2 and rule #4 go hand in hand).

i feel that i am responsible for my own enjoyment of the lounge just as i am responsible for my own enjoyment of the slopes.

alasdair


----------



## Too many doses

I'm gonna have to say to TM that was a great post Ive never seen bl brokendown so well. That sums it up, I think anyone who feels the way fjones does should read this, it would be impossible for them to be so self centered afterwards.


----------



## MazDan

alasdairm said:


> i didn't quote those code items to be analogous of the lounge, rather to address simon's point about suspending rules altogether. i was simply showing that moderation on the part of both staff and users go hand in hand (the same way rule #2 and rule #4 go hand in hand).
> 
> i feel that i am responsible for my own enjoyment of the lounge just as i am responsible for my own enjoyment of the slopes.
> 
> alasdair



lol, nice sidestep.


----------



## zephyr

alasdairm said:


> i didn't quote those code items to be analogous of the lounge, rather to address simon's point about suspending rules altogether. i was simply showing that moderation on the part of both staff and users go hand in hand (the same way rule #2 and rule #4 go hand in hand).
> 
> i feel that i am responsible for my own enjoyment of the lounge just as i am responsible for my own enjoyment of the slopes.
> 
> alasdair



*Be the change*

Hi Alasdairm,

As I cant physically force you into posting more in the lounge, I can try to bribe or threaten you, whichever will actually work better.

I cant make it more enjoyable for ME on my own you know, it does take people I think are cool to join in.

So....I'll see you there, right??  Ali?  Dude?:D


----------



## That_Guy

For those complaining about the Lounge:


YOU JUST WON!!!!

It's dead in there and no one is trying to rape black babies or whatever you say happens in there.


----------



## Lysis

That_Guy said:


> For those complaining about the Lounge:
> 
> 
> YOU JUST WON!!!!
> 
> It's dead in there and no one is trying to rape black babies or whatever you say happens in there.



I know! Man it's damn quiet and dead in there! LOL


----------



## DudeImnotDAVE

I say y'all do some unbanning. I swear.... I'm actually WORKING. How can you do this to me?'


LOL 

Edit to add- Is everyone scared to just be themselves? I mean, honestly, there are very few even smartass remarks in there lately.


----------



## TheLoveBandit

^^Is that a bad thing?  Is there no more substance to the forum than that?  Perhaps this will open the place up for 'better' content not to get drowned out.....

Still, we're at the mercy of the participating members, and if they've all gone back to work.....shoot, I might have to as well.


----------



## Rorschach

That_Guy said:


> For those complaining about the Lounge:
> 
> 
> YOU JUST WON!!!!
> 
> It's dead in there and no one is trying to rape black babies or whatever you say happens in there.



Primary objective achieved.  Mission accomplished.


----------



## L2R

the lounge has always been a place where one could actively encrouage high quality content. sure, not everyone is as clever as you, but don't be disheartened. if you don't put the funnies and good stuff in, who will?

....
what are you waiting for?

...

see this is the bigger problem: the great majority of members who go to the lounge expecting "it" to provide the luls and entertainment. had some initiative been shown to encourage the type of stuff you'd like to see had been shown there would not have been any problem with being inundated with stuff you do not like. 

with the amount of demand in there plus a lack of contribution, a vacuum results sucking in whatever is around. 

with all the time and effort put into complain about all that is wrong or not nice, it would be far more constructively used by actually adding good content.


----------



## Pillthrill

I doubt you could blame it on this thread. Really....do lounge members really give a damn what other people think, doubt it.


----------



## ladyinthesky

Impacto Profundo said:


> the lounge has always been a place where one could actively encrouage high quality content. sure, not everyone is as clever as you, but don't be disheartened. if you don't put the funnies and good stuff in, who will?
> 
> ....
> what are you waiting for?
> 
> ...
> 
> see this is the bigger problem: the great majority of members who go to the lounge expecting "it" to provide the luls and entertainment. had some initiative been shown to encourage the type of stuff you'd like to see had been shown there would not have been any problem with being inundated with stuff you do not like.
> 
> with the amount of demand in there plus a lack of contribution, a vacuum results sucking in whatever is around.
> 
> with all the time and effort put into complain about all that is wrong or not nice, it would be far more constructively used by actually adding good content.




i  you


----------



## Jabberwocky

My theory on the lounge being dead today is that it is the first of the month. Many people on salary or on the dole got their checks today and are buying necessities then distributing the rest to widows and orphans.


----------



## Rorschach

Enki said:


> My theory on the lounge being dead today is that it is the first of the month. Many people on salary or on the dole got their checks today and are buying necessities then distributing the rest to widows and orphans.



One of many reasons.


----------



## purplefirefly

Too many doses said:


> I'm gonna have to say to TM that was a great post Ive never seen bl brokendown so well. That sums it up, I think anyone who feels the way fjones does should read this, it would be impossible for them to be so self centered afterwards.



I'm self centered because I have passion for the site and want to see it grow and have it be the best that it can? So because there are people who don't agree with me I should just drop my opinion and my thoughts? I'm just as entitled as those who are in favor or leaving everything the way that it is.


----------



## Nibiru

Pillthrill said:


> I doubt you could blame it on this thread. Really....do lounge members really give a damn what other people think, doubt it.



This thread is why I started reading and posting in the lounge.


----------



## L2R

^lol irony^



purplefirefly said:


> I'm self centered because I have passion for the site and want to see it grow and have it be the best that it can? So because there are people who don't agree with me I should just drop my opinion and my thoughts? I'm just as entitled as those who are in favor or leaving everything the way that it is.



Indeed you are entitled to air any concerns, but as are those with opposing views. 

now let's all cuddle n shit :D


----------



## Too many doses

purplefirefly said:


> I'm self centered because I have passion for the site and want to see it grow and have it be the best that it can? So because there are people who don't agree with me I should just drop my opinion and my thoughts? I'm just as entitled as those who are in favor or leaving everything the way that it is.



As it's hard to understand tone on the net, I first want to say I hope you didn't take self-centered as negative. I meant that I completely agree with TM that BL has a diverse community and  that each individual dictates his/her own experiance. I come here to learn from people and to help others that I can with my experiances. I'm sure as a moderator you see where im comming from . There are people though that come here to act out as they can't in real life, but there are outlets for them to act this way away from the harm reduction info( that can't be a good mix).  If it's not hurting anybody I don't see a problem with it, I just don't spend a lot of time in the lounge. We all can have our opinions without pushing them on others or the site. I'm with you on some of the things you've said in this thread, but I also agree with others saying we can just look the other way.


----------



## purplefirefly

Impacto Profundo said:


> ^lol irony^
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed you are entitled to air any concerns, but as are those with opposing views.
> 
> now let's all cuddle n shit :D



*cuddle puddle* 

I'm not trying to stop anyone from expressing their point of view. I think both sides need to be open and actually hear both sides of the argument. Tis all.


----------



## Too many doses

I completely agree with you, this thread is essentially people onthe same side fighting with eachother in the end .


----------



## purplefirefly

We're definitely not all on the same side. There are those that want the Lounge to change and then there are those that don't. Those are quite separate groups of people.

Unless of course you were being facetious in your statement.


----------



## Too many doses

I haven't been here as long as most so I probably just don't have the proper perspective, like an outsider looking in so I'm sure your reasons for feeling the way you do have validity.  I was being sarcastic to a point but essentially this is one issue that effects BL I just don't see it as that divisive, I guess others do.


----------



## Pillthrill

Impacto Profundo said:


> ^lol irony^
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed you are entitled to air any concerns, but as are those with opposing views.
> 
> now let's all cuddle n shit :D



Awww Plur  I thought it was just me.


----------



## Bob Loblaw

I think the lounge is lulzy, if you don't, then don't go into it.
How hard is that 8)


----------



## poopie

i got all the way through page 4 before i lost all patience.

the people who own, mod, etc. this site work hard. have you not seen the backlash from these recent administrative actions?! they are constantly working!

realize that this site changes constantly...ebb and flow. note that sometimes the lounge is all plurry and people are having meet-ups, etc. that's great. but fewer meetups happen now, and we all know why (i believe there was a lot more sex, drugs, alcohol, and std's too). it's a lot tougher to have the "cohesion" that some people are looking for- the "good ol' days" if you will.

the lounge is there for all to blow off steam, you might not like it, but the warnings exist for a reason. 

there are plenty of people and threads (hell, entire forums!) that i disregard b/c i don't care for them.

everything works itself out for a reason (and with the help of the people behind this site).

nobody wants to turn this into a pissing contest, but srsly, when you haven't been around for more then a year, it's tough to call out an establishment that has been around for 10 years with many thousands of members.

p.s. if one is not a fan of the lounge, i would suggest steering quite clear of redlight.


----------



## tambourine-man

Poopie for prez... or admin... or summat.


----------



## Rogue Robot

tambo for prez?


----------



## tambourine-man

Afraid not.  I'm too sauve and debonaire for the American public to vote for me.

Besides, I'm sure Obama can do a reasonable job in my absence.

Let me know if he goes militant like the last one, and I'll see what I can do.


----------



## Rogue Robot

tambourine-man said:


> Afraid not.  I'm too sauve and debonaire for the American public to vote for me.



i'll keep you for myself then.


----------



## tambourine-man

Ha!  Sweet, but I'm afraid it would be unethical to deny the British public.

You do realise that, as a Senior Mod, you are obligated not to encourage or engage in off-topic banter in serious threads?

tut-tut


----------



## Rogue Robot

tambourine-man said:


> Ha!  Sweet, but I'm afraid it would be unethical to deny the British public.
> 
> You do realise that, as a Senior Mod, you are obligated not to encourage or engage in off-topic banter in serious threads?
> 
> tut-tut



the lounge, tis fine how it is. :D

i learned it by watching you, btw.


----------



## tambourine-man

I'm betting Felix will delete this magnificent conversation we're having in this highly original and ground-breaking thread.

3-1 odds of thread closure
4-1 odds of post deletion
1-1 odds of Reed writing a post so long and considered that no one can disagree


----------



## L2R

tambo said:
			
		

> Poopie for prez... or admin... or summat.


indeed, but i hold back from the whole "don't like it don't go" argument. i very much prefer the "be the change..." one, which is far easier than any of the skeptic imagine. it just takes some tough skin and persistence.  



Pillthrill said:


> I thought it was just me.



now _there's_ a quote for the ages :D


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## tambourine-man

Impacto Profundo said:


> indeed, but i hold back from the whole "don't like it don't go" argument. i very much prefer the "be the change..." one, which is far easier than any of the skeptic imagine. it just takes some tough skin and persistence.


Oh, I quite agree.

But unwillingness on the part of people to get involved and go with the flow is part of the problem.

Being unwilling isn't a good enough excuse to have authority restructure a board.  But I guess you already agree with that. :D


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## Rogue Robot

the ignore feature tis quite handy. :D


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## felix

tambourine-man said:


> I'm betting Felix will delete this magnificent conversation we're having in this highly original and ground-breaking thread.
> 
> 3-1 odds of thread closure
> 4-1 odds of post deletion
> 1-1 odds of Reed writing a post so long and considered that no one can disagree


your childish and transparent reverse psychology has no effect on me. 

as long as we continue discussing the lounge, it's all good.


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## Rogue Robot

in that case, i vote tambo posts more in the lounge, and that includes more pastey faces.


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## TheLoveBandit

t_m worked his magic on me...dammit.


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## PottedMeat

Fjones said:


> And if you object to murder and child molestation, just look in a different direction?  What the fuck?
> 
> My post was about a foum that has run amok and isn't esepcially valuable to this site, and your answer is to "read a different forum."
> 
> ..........................
> 
> ok.




Ok. This is known as an argument by anology. The threads in lounge are being anologized to murder and child molestation. This is the weakest possible argument you can make in this instance. I.E., there is no murder or child molestation going on here at Blue Light.

I will agree with you that I am offended by many statements made in the lounge. But, if you would take the time to read the rules you will learn to *post at your own risk.*

Or, just do like I do, express yourself.


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## silentscience

yeah the lounge sucks now.


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## zephyr

drug_researcher said:


> It seems that some have become so used to abusing that they don't know any other way, that makes me wonder if they had some manners and respect for others, if they fear IS....
> they might create the change needed in their life and oh what a difference that would make!
> 
> Thanks for your valuable input!




I do declare, verily thou haste in insulting the learned, esteemed members of an internet forum you choose to not participate in.  Art thou a simpleton?  Have you contributed wit or charm amongst the heathens you demean so thoroughly or do you choose to spend what little contribution you have made making withering statements?

Are you unable to understand that maybe people are not quite as highly strung as yourself, or are fairly at ease with one another and would find your warblings amusing?

I appeal to thee, kindly remove thy twig from thy hindquarters Sir.  Make haste to a phone booth with 50p and call the "someone who cares" hotline, I am sure there are other withering louts around with nothing better to do that make a mockery of themselves like you do.  Go find amusement with those of your own kind.

Adieu!


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## zephyr

*For those with NO MANNERS 8)*

(You can have lots of manners and still be a fucking cunt you know, asshole.)


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## That_Guy

drug researcher,

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?  FYI, the joint has been dead for weeks now.  Do a little "research" before stirring the pot anymore.


Friendly Lounge Moderator


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## fizzle

Zephyr and Guy, I'm sure glad you both came in here, you said all of that much better than I could have!


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## alasdairm

drug_researcher said:


> The ones who support the oposite, is because it suits their needs to let all loose and have no rules ot follow.


that's a rather meaningless argument (because those who support the op's argument do it because it suits their needs). who's to say they're 'right' (for want of a better word)?

alasdair


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## Lysis

drug_researcher said:


> I applaude you man, well said you spoke for the rest of us, who think something needs to be done in those areas! The ones who support the oposite, is because it suits their needs to let all loose and have no rules ot follow. But Bluelight is for a more imporant and serious reason, and these added things add to the bad name it has aquired, and if it does not get shut down for its sensitive issues "drugs", the lounge certainly may do it, if rules are not in place.
> Sure we can avoid this and avoid that, but the lounge is suppose to be for everyone to relax and have a casul chat about things, without being shocked out of your wits, with some of the things which are not the right material for the forum.
> Thank you FJones!



So, you're saying that the Lounge and all its memes and stupid banter will be the downfall of Bluelight....not all the drug talk.  Because Bluelight's bad name has been acquired from the Lounge but of course not all that drug talk.  So you're theory is that when cops browse the site they think "Oh, wow, all this drug talk is bad, but holy shit we need to shut this place down! Look at that Lounge and all those trolls and memes!  We need to stop this!"  Is that really what you think?


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## New

Don't you see it? It's an "Ivory Tower" thought process. The rest of the site is serious business. The Lounge is crude and bawdy. Therefore the more erudite members would think that other people would think like them and see that the Lounge is the worst part of Bluelight because we act like a bunch of idiots in there.

Unfortunately, outside of the Tower, real people unlike you and me would look at this site and go "OMGWTFBBQDRUGZAREHEREPPLDODRUGZZZHEREOMGTHEDRUGS!!!!!" and think the social forums as an interesting anomaly, failing to understand that community is what drives people.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## alasdairm

^ some would say that i'm a sometime inhabititant of this 'ivory tower' and i tend to disagree - generally speaking - with the op.

this thread demonstrates pretty clearly that there are members of staff along the entire spectrum of this discussion so characterising the discussion as an 'us-versus-them' issue is wrong, imho.

alasdair


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## New

Of course there's a spectrum...black and white thinking was always my specialty. I'm usually the only one who gets called out on it because I present both the black and white as opposed to placing myself on the spectrum.


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## Mariposa

I note that the original poster hasn't posted since March 27th.

Would it be correct to conclude that this is resolved?


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## jackie jones

I find _The Lounge_ to be an utterly pointless part of Bluelight. I love this site because it portrays the intellect of many psychoactive users, and our desire to make well informed choices. _The Lounge_ portrays and fuels the usual negative stereotypes of drug users, as lacking the desire to seek wisdom and instead vent stupidity.

Off with its head!


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## Nibiru

I seek seek to gain wisdom and aim to vent stupidity. Stuff wouldn't fit if I didn't make room.


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## GenericMind

I thought this recent article published in Wired Magazine was interesting. It proposes that the internet has become a digital Hive mind where the class clown's monopoly on humor has been smashed and humor has become laissez-faire. Wit and humor imply insight, and in a high-speed information economy insight is the most valuable currency. It labels the social portion of the internet as "The world's biggest, cruelest comedy club."

I think people that complain about the State of <insert fierce comedic atmospheres like the Lounge> simply lack the wit or intelligence to be competitive in such an environment.

Read As: You're old. Get with the times.


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## Rorschach

^ Been saying that for years.  



mrjackjones said:


> I find _The Lounge_ to be an utterly pointless part of Bluelight. I love this site because it portrays the intellect of many psychoactive users, and our desire to make well informed choices. _The Lounge_ portrays and fuels the usual negative stereotypes of drug users, as lacking the desire to seek wisdom and instead vent stupidity.
> 
> Off with its head!



Then do yourself favor, and stay away from it.


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## alasdairm

i'm inclined to agree, somewhat, with gm on the subject of insight.

that said, i imagine few people would file the monotonous posting of "_lolwut_", image macros stolen from other sites and racial epithets under "_wit and humor_"



alasdair


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## jackie jones

I do stay out of the lounge. This is support. You read my post and know how I feel. This thread would not have so many responses if there was not truth to what I said. As it seems, there are some lounge people who made a forum called _Redlight_, which is a fine portrayal of what a site is like composed the such.


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## Nibiru

alasdairm said:


> i'm inclined to agree, somewhat, with gm on the subject of insight.
> 
> that said, i imagine few people would file the monotonous posting of "_lolwut_", image macros stolen from other sites and racial epithets under "_wit and humor_"
> 
> 
> 
> alasdair



The lounge has been infected with internet mad cow, or 4chanism. Like mad cow, it puts holes in the brain until over time, the brain becomes sponge-like and useless.


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## GenericMind

alasdairm said:


> i'm inclined to agree, somewhat, with gm on the subject of insight.
> 
> that said, i imagine few people would file the monotonous posting of "_lolwut_", image macros stolen from other sites and racial epithets under "_wit and humor_"
> 
> 
> 
> alasdair



I think we both know that peoples' issues with the Lounge goes beyond a few members posting pictures and making racial comments. People complained about the Lounge before members like Clubbinguido posted there and they'll continue to now that he's gone. It's a simple matter of some people with outdated senses of humor refusing to recognize or accept what's considered funny nowadays. 

What would you estimate the mean age of all Bluelight members to be? 20? 22? How many of the people running this site do you think accurately represent members in that range? Is there even anyone on Senior Staff under 30?

You guys seem to worry an awfully lot about turning off potential members to this site, yet display a fraction of that concern in keeping members you already have. The Lounge should be whatever its posters make it. The Lounge is there for them to Socialize while they're learning about Harm Reduction in other sections of the forum. It's there. For them. Micromanaging something that should be such a small part of your Administrative efforts and banning people because of what they do there, people who _need_ the information available on this site, is irresponsible and a far cry from anything I would consider _In the interest of Harm Reduction_.


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## jackie jones

^Good point, however, It seems as if the lounge is suggesting "Hey, if you feel like playing the fool, why not hop on Bluelight and vent your frustrations".

And, as I'm sure you are well aware, these people's behaviors do not always stay in the lounge, yet hinder other's concentration on other sections of Bluelight.


----------



## felix

GenericMind said:


> Micromanaging something that should be such a small part of your Administrative efforts and banning people because of what they do there, people who _need_ the information available on this site, is irresponsible and a far cry from anything I would consider _In the interest of Harm Reduction_.


so the 3 people that were banned recently are now somehow unable to read the rest of the site? 

gimme a break.


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## Rorschach

mrjackjones said:


> And, as I'm sure you are well aware, these people's behaviors do not always stay in the lounge, yet hinder other's concentration on other sections of Bluelight.



Fool.  ClubbinGuido's behavior and the behavior of most who were banned was strictly happening in The Lounge, nowhere else.


----------



## Rorschach

felix said:


> so the 3 people that were banned recently are now somehow unable to read the rest of the site?
> 
> gimme a break.



Actually, yes.  Can only access via proxy.  Even then, kind of buggy.


----------



## felix

Rorschach said:


> Actually, yes.  Can only access via proxy.  Even then, kind of buggy.


i'm sure you'll manage to find the HR information you're looking for, CG.


----------



## GenericMind

mrjackjones said:


> ^Good point, however, It seems as if the lounge is suggesting "Hey, if you feel like playing the fool, why not hop on Bluelight and vent your frustrations".
> 
> And, as I'm sure you are well aware, these people's behaviors do not always stay in the lounge, yet hinder other's concentration on other sections of Bluelight.




I think that Lounge-like behavior exists almost _exclusively_ in the Lounge. I've very rarely seen it leak out, and when it does it's dealt with promptly enough to be a non-issue. 

How members use the Lounge should be the least of anyone's worries. They should spend more time on how members are using the other parts of this site. If people want to vent their frustrations in the Lounge, let them. If they want to post memes, let them. I assume the Lounge was originally created as a place for people with a lot in common to socialize, not as a place for Administrators to hand-pick people to exclude from access to the Drug Safety information on this site by banning them. I think there's something seriously wrong when the majority of non-spam bannings on a Harm Reduction website are the result of things posted in it's Social forum, not the forums that encompass the main purpose of the site. It's like kicking people out of a waiting room and barring them from Doctors' services because a few people find them annoying.




> so the 3 people that were banned recently are now somehow unable to read the rest of the site?
> 
> gimme a break.



Would you stick around if you were banned? Would you feel like you were as much a part of the community as when you were a member? Would you contribute as much? This isn't your personal club. It's a website here to serve people. You can't expect them to keep coming back after being banned. I'll give you a break when you get a clue.


----------



## jackie jones

I said nothing about ClubbinGuido or anyone in particular. I am noting tendancy of the type of individuals who frequent the lounge more than any other Bluelight forums.

Bluelight is the most well informed and proactive psychoactive site on the internet. Why encourage fuckarounds to disrupt people who are trying to educate themselves. This is not a place for people to anonymously troll around and bother everyone. God damnit, most of the internet is like that. Is it too bold of an idea for people to be cool and serious about something, anything other than their need to act out?


----------



## GenericMind

Every other forum on Bluelight is cool and serious. I don't think allowing people to act like idiots in one social forum is going to detract from that, and I think shunning them for it, or worse; banning them for it, is counterproductive to the goals this site claims to have. You're supposed to appeal to as many types of people as possible. Not push away those that don't fit your definition of acceptable.


----------



## Rorschach

felix said:


> i'm sure you'll manage to find the SHR information you're looking for, CG.



Indeed.


----------



## jackie jones

I am not suggesting banning anyone for being silly. I just hate stereotypes, and seek to overcome them. That should be foremost the mind of _every_ Bluelighter.

As a community, we are not stupid druggies. Thats obvious. We don't 'do drugs'. We study medicine.


----------



## GenericMind

> I am not suggesting banning anyone for being silly. I just hate stereotypes, and seek to overcome them. That should be foremost the mind of every Bluelighter.
> 
> As a community, we are not stupid druggies. Thats obvious. We don't 'do drugs'. We study medicine.



Understandable. I think that there are other forums on Bluelight that embody stereotypes much more than the Lounge does.

In the end, isn't a Social forum just a place for people to chat with people they can relate to? That's why some people stick to the European Social forum, because that's where people they relate to post. That's why some people post in Drug Culture, because they relate to what's posted there. And that's why some people prefer the Lounge. Anyone from any of those groups can choose to read or not read any of the others' forums. The important thing is that they're _members_, and they're posting on Bluelight at all. This site seems to suffer the same delusions as the entire Education Industry in the United States. It forgets it's a Service Industry. It's sole purpose is _to serve_ its Patrons.




			
				Mariposa said:
			
		

> I am in my late 20s.
> 
> At least one, and probably two, of the admins are younger than me.
> 
> At least three (that I know of) and probably four smods are younger than me.
> 
> There is an age poll in Second Opinion right now that may more effectively answer your other questions regarding Bluelighters' ages.



Alright, I stand corrected. You all may not be a decade older than the core audience on this site, but being 7 years older isn't much different and I think my point is still valid.


----------



## felix

^ so are you suggesting anarchy is the best solution? with no guidelines? or staff? and especially senior staff?


----------



## purplefirefly

Mariposa said:


> I am in my late 20s.
> 
> At least one, and probably two, of the admins are younger than me.
> 
> At least three (that I know of) and probably four smods are younger than me.
> 
> There is an age poll in Second Opinion right now that may more effectively answer your other questions regarding Bluelighters' ages.




Mid twenties here (actually, as mid as you can get). My partner is a year older so that makes him certainly under 30.



GM: What does age have to do with it anyway? Does passing over the threshold of 30 automatically make you "uncool" or uptight? There are plenty of people who post in the Lounge currently who are 25 and older. I guess don't see the point.


----------



## GenericMind

felix said:


> ^ so are you suggesting anarchy is the best solution? with no guidelines? or staff? and especially senior staff?



No. I'm suggesting replacing current Senior Staff with people better fit to do the job.


----------



## purplefirefly

Such as yourself?


----------



## GenericMind

No. Such as not you.


----------



## purplefirefly

Who would you select then? I'm quite curious to know. How are we doing such a lousy job? What exactly would please you GM?


----------



## felix

OK. 

GM, this thread had about a 1% chance of actually achieving something useful, but your tired old agenda has just killed it dead. 

CLOSED.


----------

