# CE&P Rules / Moderation



## JahSEEuS

I have been directed to post any questions pertaining to moderation here.

I am going to use an example of an infraction that I don't feel fits the requirement for infraction.  That doesn't mean it doesn't.  I just want to know where to draw the line when posting in there.  I have tried to post my take and get involved in discussions there, but if I am just going to get another permanent infraction because my ideas are different from the moderators (in this case cduggles) then I will refrain from posting there all together.  Before I do that I would like to be given the chance to better understand the rules and moderation there.  

Here is the example:










What was the infractable offense in this post?

What part of it was "Trolling, inflammatory language, posting incorrect information..."?


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## Swerlz

Though his opinions can be taken as controversial I don't see anything that could be considered "trolling"


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## JahSEEuS

Yea, I understand he has a history there.  I have a history in TL, that doesn't mean anytime I say something idiotic BP gets the right to infract me.


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## Swerlz

You know TL is more lax in what's said there and it's gotta be pretty extreme to get infracted in TL.. CE&P is a tough one where others political views can be taken as trolling when they are seen as controversial.


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## JahSEEuS

Well, my point is that you can have a history somewhere and it shouldn't be the reason you are infracted for something that is otherwise uninfractable.


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## Swerlz

I agree..100%

Look at it this way, if you're perceived as a "troll" elsewhere anything that's said elsewhere that could be take with any ounce of controversy will be taken as trollish.. Is it right, absolutely not.


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## Blue_Phlame

<snip>
  Its of my opinion that the mediation of forum issues and disputes can be handled better than issuing non-expiring infractions for a person's articulated thoughts and  opinions


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## zephyr

Blue Phlame I shouldnt have to post in bl to point you in the direction of the moderator handbook.

The answers you seek are in there re the complaint in this thread.


Since cep mods and above must be far too busy to help out cdug and jah who is white knighting for poor sweet droppers ill do it.

Actually fuck that not my job to do your job mods.

Infractions for chronic trolling and unresponsive to changes of behaviour that caused previous bans is something that should be done by SENIOR MODERATORS.  Dont chuck cdug in the firing line.

Thats so unfair on her.

If you are over droppers known ways then for gods sake stop feeding the troll or just get rid of him.

If you actually like the exchanges and want to go have a beer with him then just accept this is what he does, including his running of the teddit loungers sub which he used to display this bullshit.

Maybe now hes targetting cep and not the lounge which you couldnt be fucked with you will do something about this punk and his mates EX BLUELIGHTER or just deal with the fact hes never going to change and you deserve to look like idiots .


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## Blue_Phlame

zephyr said:


> Blue Phlame I shouldnt have to post in bl to point you in the direction of the moderator handbook.


 Good suggestion, I propose all mods review the moderator handbook from time to time to remain aware of the protocols of being on staff.


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## tathra

zephyr said:


> Since cep mods and above must be far too busy to help out cdug and jah who is white knighting for poor sweet droppers ill do it.



 Not quite. We're currently discussing the issue at hand and working out the kinks that tend to come with adding new people to the team and the changes in direction and atmosphere that come with that.

We'll let you know once we have a consensus amongst ourselves on how to properly respond to this inquiry.


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## CFC

Regarding the infraction cited above, cduggles said it was for what she felt was a consistent pattern/history of trolling rather than anything specifically in that single RP. Alas you cannot create an infraction from multiple posts or a history of posts.

As for wanting to know cduggles take on things, I'd recommend asking her directly via PM.


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## JahSEEuS

Thank you *everyone* for your input.  

I'm not white-knighting for drops - simply looking for answers about acceptably behavior.  

This brings up some more questions.

shouldn't something like this be left to a longer standing member of the moderator team?  if it is in regards to a consistent pattern/history of trolling, shouldn't the mods that he had been behaving like that under be the ones to make that decision and not a new mod?  If not, any new mod could perm-infract someone like guido (or myself for that matter) as soon as he makes even the slightest jackassy comment?


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## CFC

I do appreciate what you're saying, though I disagree that a new mod fully aware of their forum's dynamics (as cdugs is of CE&P) is incapable of reaching and acting on the same conclusion as an oldtimer. Many oldtimers have also made moderating decisions in the past that others here disagree with, especially since such decisions are often, by their nature, somewhat contentious.


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## JahSEEuS

Well, if the people that have been in charge, the whole time he has been doing the things he's accused of, haven't deemed it a necessary punishment wouldn't you think that speaks volumes?  

If such a poster were to be doing the things that droppers was accused of in the infraction, shouldn't a more deserving post appear, full of "trolling, inflammatory language, posting incorrect information..."?  Why not wait for that post?  This just comes off as petty and ignorant. 

Also, it is more likely that a member of the community who was just recently "promoted" to moderator may have had more personal/direct involvement with the poster - likely causing this to be more of a personal vendetta, as opposed to fair-and-balanced moderating?


Ugh, now it seems I am white-knighting for drops and will stop.  That last sentence is just my take on what may have happened.  I think it would be equally frustrating to any poster in a similar situation though and is not indicative of me trying to change anything on his record.  Simply, trying to clarify for prosperity and myself.


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## JahSEEuS

zephyr said:


> Blue Phlame I shouldnt have to post in bl to point you in the direction of the moderator handbook.
> 
> The answers you seek are in there re the complaint in this thread.
> 
> 
> Since cep mods and above must be far too busy to help out cdug and jah who is white knighting for poor sweet droppers ill do it.
> 
> Actually fuck that not my job to do your job mods.
> 
> *Infractions for chronic trolling and unresponsive to changes of behaviour that caused previous bans is something that should be done by SENIOR MODERATORS.  Dont chuck cdug in the firing line.
> 
> Thats so unfair on her.*
> 
> If you are over droppers known ways then for gods sake stop feeding the troll or just get rid of him.
> 
> If you actually like the exchanges and want to go have a beer with him then just accept this is what he does, including his running of the teddit loungers sub which he used to display this bullshit.
> 
> Maybe now hes targetting cep and not the lounge which you couldnt be fucked with you will do something about this punk and his mates EX BLUELIGHTER or just deal with the fact hes never going to change and you deserve to look like idiots .



So you are saying cduggles shouldn't have been the one making this decision and it's exactly my point.  Seems you are chucking her in the fire for making a poor decision and acting out of line.


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## swilow

An unnecessary dig at staff zephyr but whatever  

I'm not willing to fire off an off the cuff or reactive comment as I believe jah's queries deserve a more thought-out response. Believe me when I say we are discussing this being the scenes.  



JahSEEuS said:


> Thank you *everyone* for your input.
> 
> I'm not white-knighting for drops - simply looking for answers about acceptably behavior.
> 
> This brings up some more questions.
> 
> shouldn't something like this be left to a longer standing member of the moderator team?  if it is in regards to a consistent pattern/history of trolling, shouldn't the mods that he had been behaving like that under be the ones to make that decision and not a new mod?  If not, any new mod could perm-infract someone like guido (or myself for that matter) as soon as he makes even the slightest jackassy comment?



I don't see how this would make a difference. All mods have the same authority here. 

I think you may not be aware of droppers' true history here. All I'll say is that all staff _are_ aware of it. 

Jah what is your ultimate motive here? I mean, if you wish to avoid infractions, don't do what droppers has done by consistently trolling bluelight.  

I appreciate your contributions so please keep it up


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## tathra

swilow said:


> An I'm not willing to fire off an off the cuff or reactive comment as I believe jah's queries deserve a more thought-out response. Believe me when I say we are discussing this being the scenes.



This.  We should have our response ready within the next few days addressing this and other issues that might be ambiguous, so please bear with us.  In the meantime if there's anything else you or anyone else would like us to clarify, now would be an excellent time to bring it up while we're already discussing this issue.


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## zephyr

Swillow. Dont deflect mod communication problems back at me, or anyone who happens to have been in the same position as cduggles.

This is not her fault at all and as tath said elsewhere some crap about presenting a united front.  That is not what you guys are doing and you are not working together.

Tath has posted elsewhere hes trying a "troll reprogramming" method which is more like behavioural class for toddlers.

Are you a aware of this and doing same .?

The complaints about a ban section both hah and droppers know about is elsewhere displaying a pm like above has never before been allowed and also pretty sad you have not removed it.

Are you using this as leverage for some squabbling amongst you staff ?

I already know you are confirmed by staff in private.

Poor cduggles.

Thats so disgraceful.


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## tathra

zephyr said:


> This is not her fault at all and as tath said elsewhere some crap about presenting a united front.  That is not what you guys are doing and you are not working together.



Reaching a consensus, or at least majority agreement, can take time; not everyone will agree with everyone else because we all have different perspectives, experiences, and ideals, and theres nothing wrong with that; sometimes that results in friction between us, but that's the kind of thing you have to deal with when working as part of a team.  That's why we're unable to give a proper answer at this time though.

And yes, the rest of my team knows that I'm trying to reach out to disruptive posters with the hopes of convincing them to be less disruptive, and that I'm working alone at it.

Im not really sure what you're getting at with the rest of your post; theres nothing nefarious or malicious going on behind the scenes, just people with diverse views trying to come to a consensus on how we should manage our forum.


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## swilow

@ zephyr I don't know what you are talking about so I'm gonna ignore most of that. 

I'll just say I'm totally behind all our mods and nothing I've posted so far is disloyal or whatever. I've really only been skeptical towards jahs claims about cduggles. You clearly read this stuff with a certain bias which I'd appreciate you not extending into this topic. I do however appreciate you defending cduggles though and I can assure you that I am too.


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## zephyr

Swillow I Why did liquid method get banned?

What post was it as that would be an example of what not to do as per jahs questio.

Swillow please refer to tathra and sj and maybe they will help or also feign ignorance. Thanks.

I wont reveal private conversations as per guidelines and in respect for former friends


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## swilow

Its very hard to believe you are being genuinely inquisitive zephyr but Liquid was banned because he has accumulated heaps of infraction points. That's his doing. We just issue the points. 

The post in question contained misogynistic content. I will try to find when I'm home.  



			
				ZEPHYR said:
			
		

> Swillow please refer to tathra and sj and maybe they will help or also feign ignorance. Thank



I'm not sure what you mean but I've already told you that we are ALL discussing this.  

I will say that these are valid questions well worth asking but you just have to give us time to answer you guys.


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## zephyr

Hi swillow.

I saw someone else in cep asking why he was banned and not sure where to ask.

Noticed he banned.

Read his posts.

Saw nothing that was in any way out of the ordinary.

Hence the question.

Can you please show the post that was against the rules for same reason that jah gave as per his question.



I am sorry you are doubtful of this question.


I have a couple of reasons why I would like you to help out please.

1) His posts since last return have consistently been completely within the rules and he has not personally insulted anyone.

2) His political views are just as valid as anyones and   members can not be infracted or discriminated against based on that.  If they can, please correct me and explain why.

3) I cant remember if I argued on his behalf or not in tph in previous incidents.   But if I did then again I am concerned he is being targeted due to his political stance and/or  racial background.

4) There is method in my madness swillow.
I am wondering if there is equal amount of interest in the mysterious fate of yet another repeat ban cep poster whose ban is a mystery as he has not broken guidelines that i can see (unless its hidden).

Jahseeus: if youvare genuinely interested in the posts of cep and what is in and what is out,  surely you would question every bizarre mod decision equally as the original?

Or are you white knighting for your friend, who could speak for himself and has done so all his other bans?


I dont have a copy of the post or the infraction to support my case.  But swillow you do 

Can you post them here please.


Misogynistic comments are rife in cep 

I could send in as many as you like from many people.

I hooe someone who can do something for LM steps in.  

Ill check back tomorrow abd if it helps ill report every misogynistic post I can find from everyone , but Id rather not to be honest.


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## JahSEEuS

I am very interested to as to why LiquidMethod may have been banned.  I have been somewhat busy the past few days so I haven't had a chance to notice / ask any questions.  I am not in communication with that poster outside of this site, so I wasn't even aware it happened.  I have been staying out of CE&P mostly due to not wanting any unwarranted infractions, so I did not notice.  

But sure zeph, if you think that it was unjust, I am interested.

You have to understand that the post may have been UA'd and unfindable.  The reason I am using drops as an example is because it is easily accessible.



swilow said:


> Jah what is your ultimate motive here? I mean, if you wish to avoid infractions, don't do what droppers has done by consistently trolling bluelight.
> 
> I appreciate your contributions so please keep it up



Yes, mostly to avoid my own infractions.  I am aware of Dropper's history.  I have even at times (before understanding his mindset/pov/etc.) distrusted/hated/ignored his ideas.  But he has grown on me.  I also think his troll shtick has "degraded/changed" to something more akin to his actual POV.


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## zephyr

Sorry jah ill read your post when next online as I kust wanted to pop in and officially protest the infraction and ban of bluelighter Liquid Method.

Assuming of course the thread in question is the Trump Presidential Thread.


There is no way on Godd green earth that he posted anything misogynistic and I refute #4 being broken at all.

As both admin are involved in this thread and both have a history with LM,  I would hope there is a person available to review this, see this is nonsense and act on his behalf.


Sorry guys, nothing personal but this is unfair and the right thing has to be done even if it aggravates staff.



post or upload any content that victimizes, harasses, degrades, or intimidates an individual or group of individuals on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or any other reason'

Please explain how this was broken.


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## Droppersneck

I was trying to avoid weighing in here, as my piece has been said and my opinions on this topic are well known and widely shared by many right leaning posters in CEP. When I returned to posting in CEP a couple years ago, I was used to the lounge. Bardo was on staff at that point over seeing CEP and was, I believe, a senior moderator as well.  He personally reached out to me and asked me not to "troll" the forum. I greatly respected him, and agreed, but it was with the understanding that I would still express my unpopular opinions. I think Alasdair also(I believe) around the same time made a similar request in which I felt it necessary to oblige. Since then I have always brought my genuine views and beliefs to the table, and posted in the same manner I would say them out loud irl. The one time I stepped outside of that was giving BP a hard way to go, by jokingly calling him a (*#%-boy) After I was pmed and told it was unacceptable I apologized to him and continued on. Everything I post is my genuine opinion and has been since I originally told bardo I was checking the lounge at the door. 
I suspect, as with the bulk of right leaning contributors to the forum, that certain individuals in positions of power dislike our contributions message/content, and seek to suppress it with actions they might feel are their altruistic *greater* duty, after trump won. This is not unique to BL, but rather part of the larger conversation about internet censorship, of the ideas that buck the trend followed by those that control the platforms for the majority of communication on the interwebs.  BLUAs general disregard in the politics forum and its ambiguities Are applied to silence those contributors thus making them want to leave the forum. With that said, I have found the majority of the moderation on BL to be fair and level headed. Alasdair and I can go back and forth via email for days, and while we know certain things push each other's buttons, at the end of the day it's enlightening to me to see his view. His and many others opinions have made me rethink my own positions in the past. I speak truthfully here, and this is why the post I was infracted for contains nothing that violates the rules. Having open dialogue and not silencing those you disagree with is more important now than ever imho 
As far as liquid_method goes, after reading everyone of his well sourced intelligently thought out postings, I find him to be beyond reproach and would be very surprised to see him post anything misogynistic in nature. Rather I could see a comment being blown out of proportion or taken in an extremely sensitive way, to fit the scenario for applying a permanent infraction like the one I received to discourage his future contributions. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am here, sadly.


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## JahSEEuS

zephyr said:


> Sorry jah ill read your post when next online as I kust wanted to pop in and officially protest the infraction and ban of bluelighter Liquid Method.
> 
> Assuming of course the thread in question is the Trump Presidential Thread.
> 
> 
> There is no way on Godd green earth that he posted anything misogynistic and I refute #4 being broken at all.
> 
> As both admin are involved in this thread and both have a history with LM,  I would hope there is a person available to review this, see this is nonsense and act on his behalf.
> 
> 
> Sorry guys, nothing personal but this is unfair and the right thing has to be done even if it aggravates staff.
> 
> 
> 
> post or upload any content that victimizes, harasses, degrades, or intimidates an individual or group of individuals on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or any other reason'
> 
> Please explain how this was broken.



This thread isn't meant to be used to get posters out of infractions, but merely to clarify the rules.  If LM thinks  his infraction was unwarranted there is a place for that.


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## zephyr

I am not trying to get someone out of an infraction.  Im protesting it and hopefully someone impartial exists on staff that wont just pull a united front and side with staff even though they are wrong.

I dont think you are either .


Yes there is a place for that and he can appeal like anyone else.


I am wondering what constitutes a misogynistic comment just in case I accidently do the same thing as I have read what could be the thread in question and how this specific incident violates blua4.







Are you not worried about making the same mistake as LM has?  


Its the same thing but hes not your personal friend right?


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## JahSEEuS

Read my previous post.  I said I am very interested.  I too would like to know what's considered misogynistic.  

I just found out that saying "Indians love pooping in the streets" is racially insensitive yesterday and so are pictures depicting Indians pooping in the street.  Even though there is only one race (humans) and we all do things, I also like pooping in nature but I don't think it's racially insensitive if someone pointed that out.


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## alasdairm

^ again, in context, there's absolutely no problem with your discussing public defecation in india. but you made a joke out of it in the lounge by lazily and uncharitably characterizing the issue as "_indians love pooping in the street_". i think you're smart enough to know the difference.

alasdair


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## zephyr

I would like to know what is the offending post re misogyny as moderator swillow explained it violated blua4.   This would be interpreted by me who is a certain gender and personal experience of sexual assault which is information relevant to any input i might make. 

Posts by other contributors have their own perspective of what misogyny is and what constitutes rape.

The two subjects are related but not the same thing.

I have not identified a post by the infractee that would be offensive relating to misogyny or what constitutes rape.

One thing that seems to be missed is rape is such a serious accusation that accusstions of rape that is false is damaging to a man or woman or any other gender. So cases of rape must be investigated and must not be thrown aroung willy nilly just like accusations of deserving it are.

When this post is available I will know what to avoid.


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## zephyr

alasdairm said:


> ^ again, in context, there's absolutely no problem with your discussing public defecation in india. but you made a joke out of it in the lounge by lazily and uncharitably characterizing the issue as "_indians love pooping in the street_". i think you're smart enough to know the difference.
> 
> alasdair



I am a simpleton.  The context of what is and what is not allowed regarding this subject matter is beyond my ability .  


I did not understand what was so racist about someone eating a watermelon was either  and I actually dont care that Im antisemitic by eating bacon on hannuka as Im not Jewish and bacon is actually worshipped in a real church .


Having had a person offer to help clear things up for me if there were still any questions regarding whatever the hell went on in either the whole last 16 months  or just one day three years ago tell me he thinks im losing it then I suppose thats probably the case.


I just took any staff pm over the years as from all if was about bl and just fucking around personal shit if not.  So the ones i got from srnior staff who are no longer with us were interpreted as actually real 


In my defence,  I had never been on staff before and just assumed all of you were on the same page so getting a few pms about what was the situation at the time I took at face value.  


I am now aware that whatever the bizarreness in the last 14 months was was actually a mistake 3 years ago that was for one day.

So forgive me if I am either completely loopy or pretty confident im totally sane and you are a cat,  I would like to just clear up to you and staff one thing.

Having all different secret squirrel hush hush things like this is really stupid and just be aware that f you are going to involve blrs who have never been on staff before into your ranks then can you make sure they are contacted by someone who is actually representing you as an organisation and just be on the same page?


The offer of a staffer to help clear anything up for me since all was covered and good yesterday just made things worse .  The intent was good and no issues but this is why i stopped having private messages with staff and will never again go there.


Because according to a person who gave the impression they were speaking on all your behalf, phr was just a little fresh,  no one involved is on staff anymore and holding it against current staff is unfair.

I actually dont.  I just thought there were maybe a few who could have spotted i missed the memo about the close being a mistake .

So same person who may or may not still be speaking on all behalf or just his or her opinion that I am losing it.

Then same person saying he or she has no doubt I got screwed over.  Well, I know I did and I really dont care,   hopefully im just crazy and in a  mental ward anyway.



So if current staff are upset with me,  dont take it personally as you have had a fair few different people speaking on all your behalf over the 16 months or 3 years ago for one day so if you dont have a clue what Im talking about then  think yourself lucky  .


Internet people really do suck.


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## alasdairm

i am struggling to understand a lot of what you are saying here, zephyr. a lot of what you have written isn't making sense to me.



zephyr said:


> The context of what is and what is not allowed regarding this subject matter is beyond my ability .


then ask the staff for help with specific instances.



zephyr said:


> I actually dont care that Im antisemitic by eating bacon on hannuka...


simply eating bacon is not antisemitic but it's not clear to me how one 'eats' bacon on an online community so you're fine to 'eat' bacon here on any day of the year including hanukkah 

alasdair


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## swilow

Zephyr, at this stage I'm not really willing to derail the thread any further. But, in terms of answering your questions about Liquid Method, the below may go some way towards it.



			
				Jah said:
			
		

> I am going to use an example of an infraction that I don't feel fits the requirement for infraction. That doesn't mean it doesn't. I just want to know where to draw the line when posting in there. I have tried to post my take and get involved in discussions there, but if I am just going to get another permanent infraction because my ideas are different from the moderators (in this case cduggles) then I will refrain from posting there all together. Before I do that I would like to be given the chance to better understand the rules and moderation there.



Thanks for the query. At the very least, its given us the chance to clarify some stuff. 

I'm not going to labour the point, but I thought I would share the bit that has been left out of your post:



			
				Jah said:
			
		

> This user has a long history of trolling CE&P.



That is really the simplest way of explaining this infraction. Droppersneck is a troll on Bluelight, and particularly CE&P. You cannot see this but he has one of the lengthiest histories of infractions of any user on Bluelight. This infraction is simply another one of them. Largely because of his history, it is understood by staff that Droppersneck was not trying to contribute meaningfully and sincerely to discussion, but was actually attempting to derail this thread with unwarranted references to gender stereotypes and the like. This is part of a pattern of behaviour which has been seen in Droppers for the duration of his time on this website; due to his many infractions, he now gets banned by the software we use for a longer and longer duration every time an infraction is issued against his account. Every time he returns from a ban, the same behaviour emerges again. This hasn't happened just once or twice, but _over and over_ again. You may read his post and take it as a sincere opinion, but we don't. We can't. Hence, he received an infraction for this continued trolling and the inflammatory use of stereotypes which in and of themselves are examples of "incorrect information". This was a continuation of what we've seen Droppers do for years and years. Its that simple, and its not a big deal. 

Its actually really easy to avoid infractions. The vast majority of users never receive them. I would daringly estimate that it is something like 1 person in 50 that receive any sort of disciplinary action- which is great, because we hate having to dish it out. I think our rules are actually pretty clear in terms of expected conduct, but to be more explicit- what we are _not_ tolerating is anything that is discriminatory or bigoted. That sort of ideology is at odds with Bluelight's goal to reach as many drug user's as possible, from all over the globe and with all the different cultural and ideological characteristics people have. Basically, use your better judgement in deciding what you post and keep in mind what I said about Bluelight's goal. Seriously, all views are welcome and encouraged in CE&P as long as they are presented logically, credibly and reasonably. We welcome diverse opinions, as long as they do not break the rules. Debate is what we want! Don't be afraid to post in CE&P, but if you are unsure about something you are going to post, you can always PM a staff member for clarification. This will be unnecessary for most users who seem aware of what will be accepted or not but don't hesitate to PM us if you are unsure.

I hope this offers some clarity on recent matters.


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## Droppersneck

That was actually a really good response swillow.  I have a handful of George Orwell quotes I will spare you all  . I don't think jah or any of the conservative leaning posters are going to buy it, but it is what it is. The history of whom gets infracted shows us that conservatism is trolling, which is actaully out of the national playbook. Shareblue and a few others use similar verbiage/technique. The frightful reign of droppersneck is over, and the sun shall shine again. Any conservative contributors reading I implore you to pm me so we can discuss interesting conservative things  Thanks for allowing this open forum and closure Alasdair, you may still have to endure a random pm from me, in the case of another presidential bet being in order. God bless America! 

Droppersneck


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## tathra

Droppersneck said:


> The history of whom gets infracted shows us that conservatism is trolling



This is a prime example of your trolling, you know that's not true but say it anyway to provoke a reaction.


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## zephyr

Alasdairm : I guess the difficulty to understand that post would be as example to you of how clear it was to me of what bluelight expected of someone who modded the lounge at that stage considering the atmosphere at the time. 


Swillow: You neglected to post the offending post re Liquid Method which you were going to post up yesterday but I wont labor the point any further.  As for droppersneck: his trolling ability is pretty good innit. Have fun with that,  nothings going to change so just let it go its for the best.  He is going to just accuse mods of political bias and getting rid of him coz he loves trump so if his trolling is an issue theres no way you can stop him 




If anything has been gained from this,  its just a point of reference to some fellow anontmous internet people that yes someone tried to speak up on your behalf ,  would have included one or two others.



And Ive cleared things up for myself thankyou swillow.

A person who is on staff messaged me and said I got fucked over, I kinda figured that out myself.  Im pretty sure others have been treated the same over the years so maybe itll be your turn in the future.


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## phr

Droppersneck said:


> That was actually a really good response swillow.  I have a handful of George Orwell quotes I will spare you all  . I don't think jah or any of the conservative leaning posters are going to buy it, but it is what it is. The history of whom gets infracted shows us that conservatism is trolling, which is actaully out of the national playbook. Shareblue and a few others use similar verbiage/technique. The frightful reign of droppersneck is over, and the sun shall shine again. Any conservative contributors reading I implore you to pm me so we can discuss interesting conservative things  Thanks for allowing this open forum and closure Alasdair, you may still have to endure a random pm from me, in the case of another presidential bet being in order. God bless America!
> 
> Droppersneck



Lol at signing your post

--------------------------------

How about making the infraction/warning forum public? That way there's more transparency and accountability.

People have infractions that they can't even click on and see what they are. You guys also never changed the text that users see when they get infracted...


----------



## JahSEEuS

I like Ali's idea of making mod forums visible with no posting.  

Quite telling that the mods won't go for that.


----------



## tathra

The reported posts and infractions sections could prolly be made read-only with no problems.  It would add transparency to decisions and how they were made.  I think even that would ultimately cause more problems than it would solve though.  I say that from my experience working in management in general and not simply as a bl mod.  The whole idea of "praise in public, criticize in private" can't exist without a place for private discussions.


----------



## phr

JahSEEuS said:


> I like Ali's idea of making mod forums visible with no posting.
> 
> Quite telling that the mods won't go for that.


That idea has been floated for years and will never happen. Never.

That's why I suggested that just part of them be open. Still, I'm not holding my breath. I remember not being allowed/not supposed to publicly share why someone was banned and how long. Let that sink in so you get just how ridiculous it is.


----------



## zephyr

This post is addressed to cep mods, senior mods that oversee cep and admin.


Swillow has mentioned he doubts my sincerity in enquiring about an infraction handed out by a staff member to liquid method.


I have some doubts about the sincerity of the intention of encouraging differing viewpoints in your forum based on a lot of exchanges between a number of people for quite a while and have noticed that is shared by other people.

I really do appreciate that cep is extremely difficult to manage due to the subject matter being polarising and the current state of the world is bringing out the worst in people.

I understand the sceptisism about this enquiry and why I am doing this.

I had concern about some decisions made about this member,  hes been banned a while and honestly cant see what hes done wrong.

Hes been gone a while and came back and didnt last so it looks like hes doing nothing but trouble which is  not really the case.

Theres a simple solution that might help make things a little easier to understand for people and also prevent mods from being slammed out in public.

I read the lounge guidelines just before writing this out of curiosity as casual racism is allowed there now .

 The editing options used in these situations would help more than either unapproving or leaving up with no explanation of why its not allowed 

I think those options are in all forums but I havent looked.  

Droppersneck had the benefit of people on staff for a long time giving him nudges to stay on track and hes  had a lot of previous staff educating him but maybe he still needs a lot of staff time to not be a troll.

LM has been around regularly for far less time in cep despite his join date and has not had that amount of time and effort devoted to him ,  unless he has people on staff that have found some connection with him and done this privately too.


He might be worth the same amount or more of your time or might not really need any more than a good example regularly, friendliness and the occasional edit.  


Either way, its obviously your call if any one person is more deserved of your time than just mingling and debating with many who dont seem to need that time.

Cduggles came into bl and cep as anyone else does and looks as if shes given up her own personal fun space here to hold responsibility for everyone elses.

Personal mental escape time is valuable and thats not something to be taken for granted.  Having this infraction thing and her name up on the title is pretty bad as shes new and it would have been vetter this discussed as per usual and droppersneck knows that.   I relate to this from my own experience.   

Infractions being overturned isnt a big deal,  shit happens.  Having them upheld and increased despite wanting them overturned though was not . (Dunno if you remember that one but its back in the records)

I do think this thread is just him trolling via provoking from reddit but thats how he rolls.  The ignore function is great!


----------



## zephyr

phr said:


> That idea has been floated for years and will never happen. Never.
> 
> That's why I suggested that just part of them be open. Still, I'm not holding my breath. I remember not being allowed/not supposed to publicly share why someone was banned and how long. Let that sink in so you get just how ridiculous it is.



I thought that was still the case.   


There was a ban enquiry thread in anon for this kind of thing and bans attributed to me were posted up and were responded to by senior staff on my behalf as skl said thats the procedure and must be the case as a post I put up there in response to some weirdo saying i banned him in eadd didnt appear and i wasnt allowed to speak for myself .


I think staff who have been around on staff forever would forget how relaxing and great it is to not be accountable for every single thing you do.

All we have to do is follow the rules and we need to have them cut and dried as much as possible due to possible substance abuse, mrntal health issues and a lot of changes that arent being made public and easy to find.

Example: being called a fig or fig references could be interpreted as homophobic as could posting a picture of a fig.  Today, casual racism is allowed.  So casual references to homophobia is ok yeah?  

So If I casually compare phr to a fig (we dont like each other ) a  he could report me and id get infracted.

What about the infamous letter f?

I dont like figs much.


----------



## tathra

this is a thread for clarifying the rules in CEP - whats allowed in the lounge and whats allowed in CEP are 2 entirely different things.  basically, skirting the rules by finding loopholes in their written letter is tolerable in the lounge, but in CEP we look more at intent and context.  most decisions, unless they're blatantly obvious violations, will be judgement calls reached by a consensus.  it should be easy enough to avoid infractions though, simply remember that we're all adults in there for serious discussion, and act that way.  it doesnt have to be humorless, but having fun in any way besides lively debate isnt the aim of CEP.


----------



## alasdairm

phr said:


> That idea has been floated for years and will never happen. Never.


what did you do to make it happen while you were an admin?



phr said:


> I remember not being allowed/not supposed to publicly share why someone was banned and how long. Let that sink in so you get just how ridiculous it is.


it's not ridiculous at all. imagine i'm arriving to eat dinner at a restaurant to see another customer being asked to leave by the manager and being walked out of the place. so i go up to the manager and ask him why that customer was asked to leave. if he told me that it was none of my business he'd be right. it's none of my business.

occasionally we'll elect to discuss a case because it has a broader relevance but if somebody is infracted in ce&p and that trips a ban, it's really none of your business. but i _need_ to know so i won't be infracted? if you're concerned that something you post might net you an infraction, then run it by the forum staff first. straightforward.

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

zephyr said:


> I read the lounge guidelines just before writing this out of curiosity as casual racism is allowed there now .


no. it's not. if you see a post which you feel exhibits it, report it and we'll take a look.

alasdair


----------



## zephyr

It is though, I am having trouble linking as it just links the picture of the number of the post.

Its in the admit thread.


Tath said casual racism is allowed.  Hes a mod.  Things are changing a bit.  This made sense to me ,  do lounge mods know this?  Am i crazy ?


Ffs.  Im crazy.  Ali I have decided i am crazy.


I would rather not report this post as i am crazy. Oh well not like its the first episode of nutter ever.


----------



## alasdairm

no. it's not.

please report the post and we'll review.

alasdair


----------



## tathra

zephyr said:


> Tath said casual racism is allowed.  Hes a mod.  Things are changing a bit.  This made sense to me ,  do lounge mods know this?



Moderators can only officially speak for their own forums.  This should be commonly understood.


----------



## zephyr

It should be commonly understood that you suck Tath.

Maybe you should stop doing it then .


----------



## EbowTheLetter

tathra said:


> Moderators can only officially speak for their own forums.  This should be commonly understood.



I would say it's commonly understood by members who have been around awhile but not by the NMIs that Swerlz is herding like cats.  Those who have been in The Lounge for a bit and can read the room know the difference between good natured ribbing between members they're friendly with and hurling epithets.  My guess is that new members would just see *Moderator* and think said person speak for the entire staff.  I by no means think you meant it as "let the slurs fly!" but I don't think it was phrased as clearly as you believe it was.  I briefly searched for it but didn't see the post.  I think 'casual racism is fine in The Lounge' was the phrasing.  Apologies if I am off by a bit there.


----------



## tathra

That's a pretty good point, i hadn't really considered that at the time.  The very nature of the lounge is causal humor and non-serious discussion, and ancient regulars in there like you and myself remember when "lurk moar" was a common greeting.  The lounge of yesterday is by no means the lounge of today though, so I'll leave it to the lounge staff's discretion on how they'd like other staff to behave to avoid such misunderstandings and the possibilty of misleading information being taken more seriously than it was meant.


----------



## zephyr

Look. Its very difficult to figure out in cep what is in and what is out as theres people in there who have very strong opinions one way politically or about a subject that is equally as strong as the exact opposite and these viewpoints are then somehow so offensive or deemed wrong that then there are accusations of misogyny, racism or hateful against a group as per blua4.  

So how does anyone who has strong views on anything going to know that they are just going to be contributing and end up banned as someone else thinks they have broken a rule?  



Its safe in the middle, no viewpoint looks any better or worse than the other but having no real leaning either way no infraction makes sense.  



I still dont know what is misogynistic but if its what i think it is, I posted a similar thing ages ago so whats the deal ?


----------



## zephyr

tathra said:


> That's a pretty good point, i hadn't really considered that at the time.  The very nature of the lounge is causal humor and non-serious discussion, and ancient regulars in there like you and myself remember when "lurk moar" was a common greeting.  The lounge of yesterday is by no means the lounge of today though, so I'll leave it to the lounge staff's discretion on how they'd like other staff to behave to avoid such misunderstandings and the possibilty of misleading information being taken more seriously than it was meant.



That would have been helpful if you had have done that a bit earlier but the mods there can type so they can tell you to knock it off and actually answer some questions themselves.


Their choice if they dont so whatever


----------



## alasdairm

zephyr said:


> So how does snyone who has strong views on anything going to know that they are just going to be contributing and end up banned as someone else thinks they have broken a rule?


if you're concerned that something you post might net you an infraction, then run it by the forum staff first. straightforward.

alasdair


----------



## phr

alasdairm said:


> what did you do to make it happen while you were an admin?
> 
> it's not ridiculous at all. imagine i'm arriving to eat dinner at a restaurant to see another customer being asked to leave by the manager and being walked out of the place. so i go up to the manager and ask him why that customer was asked to leave. if he told me that it was none of my business he'd be right. it's none of my business.
> 
> occasionally we'll elect to discuss a case because it has a broader relevance but if somebody is infracted in ce&p and that trips a ban, it's really none of your business. but i _need_ to know so i won't be infracted? if you're concerned that something you post might net you an infraction, then run it by the forum staff first. straightforward.
> 
> alasdair


I don?t think I did anything to further the issue. We weren?t having conversations about this specific issue and I didn?t personally experience the other side back then. 

I don?t think that comparison works. This site is based on members interacting with each other, not an official site entity such as a chef or server. 

When one of those members is forced to leave and can?t interact anymore I think it?s only fair for it to be out there. Call it public shaming. Call it staff transparency and accountability.

It?s not an I need to know so I don?t do it, it?s an I need to know because I think it may not be fair.


----------



## alasdairm

phr said:


> I don?t think I did anything to further the issue.


so fair assumption that it wasn't very high up your list of priorities back then? the timing of some complaints is curious.

i agree that we could consider a philosophical change and be more transparent in this area. we'll discuss.

alasdair


----------



## tathra

Keep in mind that bluelight isnt a democracy, its a harm reduction community built and maintained by its members, with all kinds different views on what's fair and just and necessary, and different ideas on everything from how policy matters should be handled to what bluelight should strive to be and the best way to achieve that.  With so many many opinions and varying views it almost becomes necessary to have an executive that can say, "this is how we're doing this, full stop", regardless of if it ends up being the wrong decision.  In the end there is no need to everyone to be privy to everything thats considered when the staff make a decision, especially since personal and non-public information will sometimes be factored in, particularly in this community where it was common for members, including staff, to know each other on a personal level, outside of bluelight (even if its just seemingly ordinary info like knowing that the user's public persona is a facade that differs from their real personality).  There have been people in the past that used this kind of non-public information for malicious purposes to cause harm, and its probably more common to our community than others considering our subject matter and our members' the hobbies, and the sometimes detrimental effects this can have on one's personality, emotions, and judgement.

Certainly suggestions and criticisms from the community will be heard and considered based on their merits, but opening up every single decision to public criticism and debate won't really accomplish much except make things even more troublesome and difficult, in many different ways.


----------



## zephyr

Hi Tathra

I am well aware bl is not a democracy and any type of discussion involving suggestions or questions about decisions/actions attributed to staff are generally for show .  This is normal and thats fine, mods never have to explain themselves to anyone.

In fact bl has gone to extreme lengths to protect their own when they mess up. Im sure some current staff have had to cop lots of flack when they know it wasnt their fault but thats what you have to do fot bl at all costs.

A lot of ex staff over the years would have their own experience so despite many changes at all levels technically nothing actually has.




Praise in public and criticise in private - your words.  Thats whats going on here but also mod decisions are always right so I dont know why there are questions anymore 

That way of running any kind of organisation may be the best thing to do when the scenario is a buisness providing a service to general public who come for what you advertise and then leave.

So with that in mind, its hard for a person who has hing around this place over many years and had the benefit of ignorance as to what its like in private.

If you are criticizing each other and not working together and find yourself cleaning up after a mess left behind by actions of former staff-  what presents as the front of a well oiled machine should be absolutely perfect regardless.  Since you arent then thats good news .


The days where blrs were postwhoring everywhere together are well and truly over.   What this place is now is fine as it is for the people who need it and its  a good distraction from life who dont need any harm reduction.  But thats all it is and lifes hard as it is so i dont really care if theres spotfires any longer.




From this conversation and a lot of others that I wish that I did not have, the conclusion drawn is bluelight mods and above management would like all members to respect and  look up to you and to do that people need trust and find your influence a positive one.



I suggest to you that you also assume anyone who posts here is equally as genuine and has no hidden agenda in their posts.  Take at face value both ways.

Personal connections and having made outside are what makes this place hard to leave yet its going to be increasingly easier.  Whats painful to leave behing are the ones who have died as their words are the only thing left behind.  Youre a mod now so I guess you have lost more as you are more leaning towards the image of a websites needs than your friends.  Being seen as impartial means not favouring your homies and also not targeting strangers.  Infracting those you are close to would be hard but it must be done.  Hopefully that wont happen as being fair would mean to not put you in that spot.


Bias works in favour sometimes and its hard to be impartial with bias.  



This took hours to type so tldr


Im leaving it at that wont raise any more questions.


----------



## JahSEEuS

So just to be clear what was the misogynistic phrase?


----------



## tathra

zephyr said:


> A lot of ex staff over the years would have their own experience so despite many changes at all levels technically nothing actually has.


oh i was one of the many involved that got screwed by a former admin basically doing whatever he could to turn over almost the entire staff, he screwed over a lot of people and drove a lot of people away.  that cant be held against anyone but him though, the current staff isnt responsible for the actions and decisions of former staff.



> That way of running any kind of organisation may be the best thing to do when the scenario is a buisness providing a service to general public who come for what you advertise and then leave.


i mean, thats _kinda_ what bluelight is.  the community is the real draw here, but of the ~7.5 million registered users, only ~6k are still active.  in the end its just a management style, one that was ingrained into me in the military (chain of command and all that), but i still think its the right idea.  everyone on staff has their own different jobs to do, and if somebody else on staff is talking smack or challenging their decisions, well, consider what you and ebow said about that lounge post i made and you should naturally come to a conclusion whether its the proper way to do things or not.



> From this conversation and a lot of others that I wish that I did not have, the conclusion drawn is bluelight mods and above management would like all members to respect and  look up to you and to do that people need trust and find your influence a positive one.


well thats not the case.  we're not anything special, just members that want to give back to the community by volunteering our time and efforts.  we are the enforcers of the rules in our respective forums though, so if we have to tell a user that their behavior is getting to be unacceptable, its not really a suggestion, its because we dont want to be forced to infract them.


----------



## zephyr

Tath, 


As you said the mods of any forum are the go to people who can answer any questions or sort out issues in their forum.


Thats all they are, they dont seem even required to be seen regularly posting just checking in mod thread or reported posts.

So can you please not skip jahs post pertaining to your forum.

In other areas such as the lounge, when a simple question re "can we talk about reddit" is asked, there have been infractions if so in the past and also no action at all.

So its not your place to respond with what that answer is .  If lounge mods answer or choose to not make things clear then if its infractable or not thats loungers issue not yours. 


There are other cep mods that could answer jah  if they want so if not maybe its not important.


----------



## phr

alasdairm said:


> so fair assumption that it wasn't very high up your list of priorities back then? the timing of some complaints is curious.
> 
> i agree that we could consider a philosophical change and be more transparent in this area. we'll discuss.
> 
> alasdair


No, it wasn?t on my priority list because I didn?t go through it and I didn?t see others go through it. Sometimes you have to experience something first hand to get it and address it. This isn?t a quality unique to just myself.


----------



## zephyr

Alasdairm you assume a lot.  


I


----------



## swilow

JahSEEuS said:


> So just to be clear what was the misogynistic phrase?



Sorry for taking so long to answer. It was Liquid basically making light of sexual assault and trying to justify trumps pussy grabbing and this was but one of a sequence of posts that seemed misogynistic. It's not a big transgression by any means but it was something like his eighth infraction so it tripped a 6 month ban.

Seriously, as I've said, you don't need to worry because most users are no way near that level of infractions.  

Jah, your contributions lately have been pretty great and I hope you keep posting like that.


----------



## zephyr

Ah.  So I read through the correct posts and that in itself has cost a member a 6 month ban.  If I then go ibto cep and put firward my own perspective on the sane thing, would you or other mods please guide me on the right path as I would like to avoid getting bans.  I cant see what was so bad with what he posted so will just post what I would anyway and hope you help out. But if infract then ill take the risk once and never post there again


----------



## alasdairm

the straw that broke the camel’s back is negligible out of context.

alasdair


----------



## swilow

zephyr said:


> Ah.  So I read through the correct posts and that in itself has cost a member a 6 month ban.  If I then go ibto cep and put firward my own perspective on the sane thing, would you or other mods please guide me on the right path as I would like to avoid getting bans.  I cant see what was so bad with what he posted so will just post what I would anyway and hope you help out. But if infract then ill take the risk once and never post there again



We unapproved some of it so you're not getting the full picture but are reacting like you are. As Ali said, context. 

 But please ask us if you have genuine concerns about something you're going to post.


----------



## tathra

assuming we've satisfactorily provided answers as to what is and isnt acceptable in CEP, i think we can close this thread out.

if there's anything thats still unclear, just ask one of us or report a post that makes you go, "wait, is that allowed?", and if the lack of clarity on an issue is found to be a non-localized problem we'll put out clarifications as necessary.


----------



## zephyr

No the answers are not clear and satisfactory .


But near enough is good enough.


----------



## swilow

I agree with Tathra, it's time to let this issue rest. We've sincerely tried our best to answer all queries and I kid you not when I say we've very comprehensively discussed this behind the scenes ad nauseum 

But please PM any of the mods or admin if anything else requires clarification.


----------



## zephyr

Just one thing I would hope happens: 

Tathra he place to discuss mod and admin behaviour in cep bl is actually on bl not the bl fb closed page which is just a fun place for old farts to catch up.

You really should not give the impression you are representative of bl or cep as you are not.  You are a mod now so you cant really speak freely and not give false impressions.  

You prol mean well but please dont.  Reddit sucks hard do dont make a fb page thats existed for a decade go doen that road.

Ppl can whinge but srsly you dont speak for sj or anyone else.

Non mods bitch and whatever but it doesnt mean shit, if we want to discuss things its best done here.


----------



## phr

swilow said:


> Sorry for taking so long to answer. It was Liquid basically making light of sexual assault and trying to justify trumps pussy grabbing and this was but one of a sequence of posts that seemed misogynistic. It's not a big transgression by any means but it was something like his eighth infraction so it tripped a 6 month ban.
> 
> Seriously, as I've said, you don't need to worry because most users are no way near that level of infractions.
> 
> Jah, your contributions lately have been pretty great and I hope you keep posting like that.


Most users are not upper level, but some STAY upper level forever. That's not fair. That's very not fair from a group of people who embrace forgiveness, and are given forgiveness, from their family, friends, and just about everyone else due to their drug use and destructive behavior from addiction. America fucking loves forgiveness, why don't you guys? It blows my mind that we treat people the same way we are treated.

If it's not clear, I'm not trying to defend this Liquid guy. He seems like a major creep-oid and deserves an infraction about joking about such things under the wrong forum. So good riddance, but I still think even someone that did that should be given forgiveness down the road.


----------



## Droppersneck

phr said:


> Most users are not upper level, but some STAY upper level forever. That's not fair. That's very not fair from a group of people who embrace forgiveness, and are given forgiveness, from their family, friends, and just about everyone else due to their drug use and destructive behavior from addiction. America fucking loves forgiveness, why don't you guys? It blows my mind that we treat people the same way we are treated.
> 
> If it's not clear, I'm not trying to defend this Liquid guy. He seems like a major creep-oid and deserves an infraction about joking about such things under the wrong forum. So good riddance, but I still think even someone that did that should be given forgiveness down the road.



I actually agree with what you're saying here about forgiveness.

I have read all of L_Ms posts from the last three or four weeks. He's like a tame version of me that actually does his due dilligence and sources things/ backs up his claims with statistics. Coming from me this may not mean as much, but I've never seen anything even slightly egregious or infraction worthy. I suspect many of influence were getting annoyed with being proven wrong and having a well encompassing learned conservative voice willing to challenge their world view. With that said I don't think I saw the post claimed to be misogynistic, but I can assure you the referenced post would probably be about as apparent as the one that got my last infraction. The forum has become very insular and self important since the days when I contributed a lot. If you are not left leaning and want to stay in good gracious of BLUA I'd steer clear. All that said


----------



## zephyr

Does sj need guidance from tathra re his posting style or is it just droppersneck posting style school?


----------



## swilow

phr said:


> Most users are not upper level, but some STAY upper level forever. That's not fair. That's very not fair from a group of people who embrace forgiveness, and are given forgiveness, from their family, friends, and just about everyone else due to their drug use and destructive behavior from addiction. America fucking loves forgiveness, why don't you guys? It blows my mind that we treat people the same way we are treated.



Two things are required for forgiveness.  One is contrition and the other is a demonstrable change in behaviour.  Neither can be found here. 

I don't think we are being too hard hearted here. The dude has pages of infractions.


----------



## zephyr

^ So has the other person who this was about originally.


----------



## phr

swilow said:


> Two things are required for forgiveness.  One is contrition and the other is a demonstrable change in behaviour.  Neither can be found here.
> 
> I don't think we are being too hard hearted here. The dude has pages of infractions.


I understand. He's probably a shitstain of a human being, but you're not giving him a chance to change if he's given permanent infractions. If he racks them up, wouldn't 1-2 year long infractions be good enough? What will a permanent infraction achieve for you that a 2 year one will not? Who are we to say change isn't possible for someone?

Your reply is probably going to be... well, look at Evey. She racked them up and was an internet pest on here for years and years. But, if her infractions were permanent it would be easier to get rid of her. Sure, but it wasn't cut and dry. Why was there a 1000 post thread about her? Because people didn't agree with something. If everyone wanted her gone, they would have said so and she would have been removed earlier. But even she had defenders. She also wasn't removed by permanent infractoins. So the argument of permanent infractions getting rid of all the eveys and the tones isn't valid.

Permanent infractions don't allow for a chance to change. Similar to why people are against the death penalty. Yeah, most are going to be Ted Bundy like motherfuckers, but you know what, you're also killing innocent people because you don't always know for sure.

My point is it's just so so lazy to just give out permanent infractions. I get it, you guys aren't paid. It's annoying to deal with the same people over and over. But there are better ways.

Why were permanent infractions brought back in the first place?


----------



## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> ...but I've never seen anything even slightly egregious or infraction worthy.


that's because problematic posts tend to be unapproved.



Droppersneck said:


> I suspect many of influence were getting annoyed with being proven wrong and having a well encompassing learned conservative voice willing to challenge their world view.


ok.



phr said:


> I understand. He's probably a shitstain of a human being, but you're not giving him a chance to change if he's given permanent infractions.


that's nonsense. he was given 7 chances to change before the latest infraction and chose not to. for most online discussion boards 7 chances is about 5 chances more than most problem posters get before a permaban.

you think we're way too harsh? there's an argument that, even with the move to permanent infractions, we're still too lenient.

it's telling that much of this criticism is coming from bluelighters with a long history of disruption.

alasdair


----------



## zephyr

Point to note:  Decisions made by staff can cause far worse damage and disruption to bluelight than any one post or pattern of posts a single member ever can and those decisions have to always be right and seen as justified to avoid in necessary angst. 


Should some things not be seen fair it should be ok to ask questions.


----------



## alasdairm

zephyr said:


> Decisions made by staff can cause far worse damage and disruption to bluelight than any one post or pattern of posts a single member ever can...


i disagree.



zephyr said:


> Should some things not be seen fair it should be ok to ask questions.


who's saying it's not ok to ask questions?

alasdair


----------



## JahSEEuS

alasdairm said:


> i disagree.
> 
> 
> alasdair



Can you expound on why you disagree?  I think it's fair to say that certain decisions by staff can have more impact than one post or series of posts from a user who doesn't have any effect on decisions...


----------



## alasdairm

i disagree because, in my experience, the damage and disruption caused by a persistent troublemaker outweighs, often significantly, the staff's decisions and subsequent actions when trying to deal with such a troublemaker.

alasdair


----------



## zephyr

alasdairm said:


> i disagree because, in my experience, the damage and disruption caused by a persistent troublemaker outweighs, often significantly, the staff's decisions and subsequent actions when trying to deal with such a troublemaker.
> 
> alasdair



What about if a person gets infractions because of a mod on a drug fuelled rampage personal agenda ?


How could a single problematic poster close down a forum for example?


----------



## zephyr

I feel that asking questions about such things may put self in the firing line and be seen as a troublemaker.   Also troublemakers such as droppy have existed so long because of staff decisions to defend and help despite others being sick of his shit.

There is a need for transparency but none will be given so there is no trust at all from me to you.


----------



## tathra

zephyr said:


> I feel that asking questions about such things may put self in the firing line and be seen as a troublemaker.   Also troublemakers such as droppy have existed so long because of staff decisions to defend and help despite others being sick of his shit.



Are you suggesting that we ban people based on popular vote rather than violations of rules everyone agrees to follow when they sign up?


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## alasdairm

zephyr said:


> What about if a person gets infractions because of a mod on a drug fuelled rampage personal agenda ?


we have oversight and review for those cases. i can't think of a case where that's happened and infractions haven't been overturned.



zephyr said:


> How could a single problematic poster close down a forum for example?


we're talking about forum posting and associated discipline. of course somebody - me for example - could have a bad night and close forums but that's not what we're discussing.



zephyr said:


> I feel that asking questions about such things may put self in the firing line and be seen as a troublemaker.


simply asking questions about site administration has never got anybody into trouble, as long as it's done civilly.



zephyr said:


> Also troublemakers such as droppy have existed so long because of staff decisions to defend and help despite others being sick of his shit.


simply making people sick of ones shit has never been grounds for infractions. we strive to be consistent, fair and civil when it comes to site discipline and i think we do a good job. droppersneck is a great example of a user who's been around long enough to push the boundary and game the system so that infractions expire. an example of why permanent (non-expiring) infractions make sense.

there are people claiming we're power-mad nazis and others - you - claiming that we're too lenient with persistent troublemakers who should have been gone a long time ago. you can't both be right.



zephyr said:


> There is a need for transparency but none will be given so there is no trust at all from me to you.


i guess we'll just have to find a way to live with that.

alasdair


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## zephyr

As for ppl thinking you are power mad nazis or too lenient is based on perspective.

Im just saying there is a lack of consistency over a period of time and asking some questions about it has resulted in different answers  privately to whats said publically.

I see what you are saying about civil discussions .    I have been a part of a few and tried to not lose my temper however there are some things that have been impossible to discuss without emotion and would have thought you would have some kind of emotional response.    But you dont.  How do you do that?


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## alasdairm

zephyr said:


> As for ppl thinking you are power mad nazis or too lenient is based on perspective.


of course it is. i guess my point is that we're just doing our thing and people have a very different view of that looks like. the conclusion is that, no matter what we do, some people are going to have a problem. so we just try to be as consistent as possible.



zephyr said:


> I see what you are saying about civil discussions .    I have been a part of a few and tried to not lose my temper however there are some things that have been impossible to discuss without emotion and would have thought you would have some kind of emotional response.    But you dont.  How do you do that?


because i have been doing this a while and i've seen some absolutely horrible shit said about me and other staff at bluelight. truly vitriolic stuff. you can't take stuff like that personally. this book has helped me a lot: the four agreements.

alasdair


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## Droppersneck

Yeah certain former admins were pretty vitriolic, I've tried to get him to remove it. Just gotta roll with the punches Alasdair, I'll have to check that book out. 
On topic, I'm honestly at a loss as to why I received the perm infraction. My opinions are disliked, I get that, but clearly the decision was more personal in nature and not objective. Though I guess targeting conservative thought does fall in with being 'consistent'. No matter, I've enjoyed my time on this site and agree with your sentiments about wanting to go a certain direction. 
You guys should push for more transparency, I've found that it's harder for the infracted party to be disagreeable when all the cards are on the table jmo though.


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## alasdairm

coming from somebody who's spent years calling me names like 'cuck', 'beta' et. al. you'll perhaps forgive me if i don't give your feedback too much weight?

i know you love to believe it but there's no agenda to rid the forum of alternative viewpoints. mgs has a definite non-liberal viewpoint and he's on staff. you're demonstrably incorrect.

maybe it's a function of right-leaning politics - and i know you (plural) love to play the martyr - but a number of the right-leaning participants in the forum seem incapable of posting without insults and not very thinly-veiled abuse.



alasdair


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## zephyr

Alasdairm, nothing I have said regarding actions taken or not taken by people on staff or not is actually personal .  There have been some pretty nasty and damaging decisions made that have affected a lot of people and that includes me.

I cant sit by and say nothing when there has been things that simply are not right.  


I argued a case for LM in this thread and I suppose that is because he didnt post anything that was out of line with anyone else.  He can state his own case easily enough though and probably will.


As for anything else, Ali , maybe it is worth putting together in date format various communications with a couple of ppl just so you know whats up.  But then again, why open that pandoras box?    Whats done is done,  skl isnt here to defend himself.

Ive had all sorts of shit about me here over the years too.  I dont really care anymore as we are all a bunch of loopers anyway.


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## Droppersneck

alasdairm said:


> coming from somebody who's spent years calling me names like 'cuck', 'beta' et. al. you'll perhaps forgive me if i don't give your feedback too much weight?
> 
> i know you love to believe it but there's no agenda to rid the forum of alternative viewpoints. mgs has a definite non-liberal viewpoint and he's on staff. you're demonstrably incorrect.
> 
> maybe it's a function of right-leaning politics - and i know you (plural) love to play the martyr - but a number of the right-leaning participants in the forum seem incapable of posting without insults and not very thinly-veiled abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> alasdair



I jokingly in good faith called BP a soyboy, other than that zero insults/ abuse from me. I just don't pretend to be something I'm not and it comes off as harsh to some. Everything I've said in CEP I stand behind 100%. Regardless I've always enjoyed our debate on the issues, but I'm guessing that was all one sided. Regardless, you win and there is no martyrdom, I'm choosing of my own free will not to participate. Though I think it's a shame. You have changed my mind on things on more than a few topics, next time I'm out your way I'll drop you line so you can punch me in the face and then have a couple beers from Russian river  Probably will be out there late springish


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## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> I jokingly...


'i was joking' is a tired, disingenuous response most of the time.



Droppersneck said:


> ...next time I'm out your way I'll drop you line so you can punch me in the face and then have a couple beers from Russian river  Probably will be out there late springish


let me know.

alasdair


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## phr

It?s clear that no real change on this will happen as long as alasdairm is at the helm.

I?ll end this by saying this site was just fine without permanent infractions. Their institution solves no problem and they are something that was not asked for by lower level staff, who do the majority of the infracting.


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## alasdairm

phr said:


> I?ll end this by saying this site was just fine without permanent infractions. Their institution solves no problem...


that's an opinion, and certainly one to which you are entitled. i believe they do solve a problem so we can agree to disagree,



phr said:


> ...and they are something that was not asked for by lower level staff, who do the majority of the infracting.


ideas come from many places and the fact that this one cam from a senior staffer doesn't automatically invalidate it. if staff feel a specific incident doesn't merit a non-expiring infraction, they can use their discretion and issue an expiring infraction.

alasdair


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## zephyr

There was a discussion thread when the infraction system was changed to temp bans and why that happened.  There was no real public mention or discussion as to why the infractions then became what they are now.


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## swilow

Non expiring infractions were put place so repeat offenders couldn't game the system anymore. 

Its ironic that at least a few of the complainants in this topic were said "gamers".


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## zephyr

^ Thats a good answer. Thankyou for that swillow.


SKL did say differently, in private, that he wanted a couple of people gone for personal grudge reasons  and they are gone , not in this thread.  


Jahseeus didnt really come under the radar until a year and a half ago.

Phr- we are not mates by any means- was a mod until the same day Jah got a few slaps..  Cant really blame ppl being upset about what happened can ya?


Droppersneck has been an on and off troll for years.  Hes been defended and indulged and slapped on the wrist heaps.  Tath overturned this ban of his (correct me if Im wrong) .

LM and his views are different to the admin and most mods and hes been targeted with personal attacks himself.  Theres nothing visible thats unusual at all so what was unapproved must have been worth a 6 month ban yeah?


Hes seeming to pay the price for some actions by people before he popped up in cep again.  This is just a different take on things.


I dont think theres a problem disagreeing with anyones viewpoint but saying personal attacks are just coming from the right is wrong.


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## zephyr

tathra said:


> Are you suggesting that we ban people based on popular vote rather than violations of rules everyone agrees to follow when they sign up?



Correct me if Im wrong, I have some ppl blocked on fb but who were you referring to when you said "he will never be banned because of cep, not if I have anything to say about it"?

Does every cep mod chime in to ensure a person isnt banned based on political pov or any other subject matter?


I dont know mate.  

These things are in your hands, Id really like to know why it was ok to post this screenshot of an infraction as it is, considering the trolling bullshit from droppersneck is well known and again indulged.


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## Droppersneck

alasdairm said:


> 'i was joking' is a tired, disingenuous response most of the time.
> 
> let me know.
> 
> alasdair


We will have to agree to disagree. 

I will definitely hit you up. Maybe mammoth lake brewery would be a good meet spot. You ever been there? Great beer and a good atmosphere. 


swilow said:


> Non expiring infractions were put place so repeat offenders couldn't game the system anymore.
> 
> Its ironic that at least a few of the complainants in this topic were said "gamers".



You guys are rid of me. Every single thing I've said in CEP is 100% what I believe and the trolling charge is something used across the entire internet, but you guys stopped short at calling me a Russian bot which sadly, I appreciate. 

Liquid methods persecution was honestly the only thing that truly annoyed me, but he will have to come to his own realizations in order to finally sever ties with the forum. Please please encourage others to think more about hyper partisanship/ sensitivity I don't think it serves this country well overall, and only increases polarization.


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## alasdairm

zephyr said:


> There was a discussion thread when the infraction system was changed to temp bans and why that happened.  There was no real public mention or discussion as to why the infractions then became what they are now.


that's not true. the change was announced in the usual place (Bans and the Infraction System) on the 5th of january 2017 -
 the system has been running without issue for over a year.



zephyr said:


> SKL did say differently, in private, that he wanted a couple of people gone for personal grudge reasons  and they are gone , not in this thread.


skl does not speak for the bl staff and he's no longer on staff.

alasdair


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## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> I will definitely hit you up. Maybe mammoth lake brewery would be a good meet spot. You ever been there? Great beer and a good atmosphere.


that's about 3 hours from here but would do in a push.



Droppersneck said:


> You guys are rid of me.


you are martyring yourself again. you're electing to stop posting in there of your own accord.

alasdair


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## Droppersneck

Oh dang thought it was closer. You about that far from Yosemite? Might be a better trip and can get you out climbing with us. Love love that place! 
May be a martying if the vast majority didn't want it, but I see what you're saying and it isn't the case, I'll contribute by sending you messages and posting in w/e other forum I won't get in trouble. I truly do like keeping up with you and a few others regardless of what you might think.


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## zephyr

alasdairm said:


> that's not true. the change was announced in the usual place (Bans and the Infraction System) on the 5th of january 2017 -
> the system has been running without issue for over a year.
> 
> skl does not speak for the bl staff and he's no longer on staff.
> 
> alasdair



He did at one point, made clear what his wishes were and they stand to this day.  







Yes an announcement was put up in public, no real explanation of what brought about those changes and its probably a safe assumption that the announcement would have been missed .  There was a discussion thread about the temp bans change a long time ago which would have been noticed.


Whichever system is in place, there will always be someone with either no life or some dumb luck that will skirt around it.


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## alasdairm

zeph, you said there was "_no real public mention_". there was. if this was the monster problem you're (plural) implying, why did it take over a year for people to get this bent about it?



zephyr said:


> Whichever system is in place, there will always be someone with either no life or some dumb luck that will skirt around it.


non-expiring infractions make that much less likely.

alasdair


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## zephyr

I dont think its taken a year as there have been infractions that are non expiring handed out in that time however the people who got them either were already under the radar likely due to the lounge closing/social "experiment" (to quote skl) and the people affected wouldnt really be paid attention to as they are the ones getting them.

I was directed to start infracting people, a couple of certain people as skl wanted them gone and to use permanent infractions as that was the only way to get rid of them.  This was because he had beef with them and was very angry I didnt. "Not doing my job," etc. I dunno if the others got this but they can say for themselves and some posts are in old mod threads.

Mods dont receive this treatment so its unlikely anyone on staff would care.  The system can be misused to remove people who are seen undesirable but thats too bad they are if they havent behaved in any way that mods themselves have.

I am working very hard on forgetting what staff was like.  Most was pretty good apart from the whole lounge/reddit/whatever thing. That was not very good and us mods who jumped in either took off straight away (guido) or went on a tangent we thought was right but it wasnt (me).

I wont say if anyone else on staff raised concerns of harsh infractions were dolled out to noobs or were dolled out unfairly to some but I would say they were in some cases.

The option to go to infractions above some nudging in the right direction were clear instructions from skl and it seems that it the go to method.

That works in cases of clear blua violations like sourcing and selling,  the rules are easy to follow in that regard.

In community forums I would say that the system does fail those who just need guidance, tolerance and understanding.  

There is a clear push for people to come here now and it would help to have some leeway to encourage them to stay whether mods think they are idiots or not.  Most people are not idiots, just new or returning to a forum thats changed and dont understand.

Its off putting to see people banned for extended periods when they were just following along the banter.

I dont think cep does infract based on political views like droppy suggests.  They infract as hes continuing his lengthy under the radar trolling.  You like to piff him around the forum so that just encourages him to the aggravation of staff I guess.

As for LM, he would be reading this and I encourage him to try again talking to you or the smods of cep who  could be some help.


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## tathra

zephyr said:


> Droppersneck has been an on and off troll for years.  Hes been defended and indulged and slapped on the wrist heaps.  Tath overturned this ban of his (correct me if Im wrong).



I dont have that kind of authority.  I'm a single member of a team, nothing more. 



zephyr said:


> Correct me if Im wrong, I have some ppl blocked on fb but who were you referring to when you said "he will never be banned because of cep, not if I have anything to say about it"?



The context there was pretty clear that i was making that reference with regards to political views.  Nobody should be banned because of their views; all are welcome in CEP, aside from ones that violate the BLUA.  Violating the forum guidelines and BLUA is another matter.


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## zephyr

^ At this stage Tath, LM would have to say his piece. 

He will have to speak up for himself now.  Hes on a lengthy ban and there are ways to do that so hopefully his communication reaches the staff who oversee cep as a group. His posts are a different perspective and he seems keen to not break the rules. Please give him a chance to explain


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## alasdairm

zephyr said:


> I was directed to start infracting people, a couple of certain people as skl wanted them gone and to use permanent infractions as that was the only way to get rid of them.  This was because he had beef with them and was very angry I didnt. "Not doing my job," etc. I dunno if the others got this but they can say for themselves and some posts are in old mod threads.


i need to go back and do some reading but this is news to me.

in the rare cases that a mod declines to infract and an smod disagrees the smod will either defer or issue an infraction themselves. nobody is forced to issue an infraction.



zephyr said:


> The system can be misused to remove people who are seen undesirable...


nobody in ce&p has been infracted or banned simply for stating an alternate viewpoint. but the ce&p guidelines and blua apply and if somebody's opinion breaks one of those, then it's a problem. bluelighters who can't post without using insults and abuse can also be infracted regardless of their leaning.



zephyr said:


> I wont say if anyone else on staff raised concerns of harsh infractions were dolled out to noobs or were dolled out unfairly...


it's only one person's memory but i am not aware of any. if any staff reading did so at the time, i'd love to hear their recolections.



zephyr said:


> Its off putting to see people banned for extended periods when they were just following along the banter.


nobody is banned for just 'following along the banter'.

alasdair


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## zephyr

Ali Ill go back and show you some saved things you should know just for your records within the next day or so.


Also as to your point of having mods of different persuasions yes you do. 

Sorry,  sprouting things like this doesnt look good.  


"I didn't know anything about, that sucks.  Well the good news is that he's barely even in CEP and still doesn't bother with the staff forums either so its unlikely you'll encounter him, and if he starts bugging you just report the pms and make him ali's problem."

This is a ref to mgs.

Shit like that doesnt add up to whats said here.




A mod but not present for mod decisions.

Yay or nay?


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## zephyr

Liquid method has forwarded to my email the conversation he had with admin re his ban and his comment that got him banned is not him being misogynistic.  In fact, the world at large and the internet is full of guys being braggish about getting a lot of pussy. Theres mods who pride themselves on getting lots of bl pussy, one of which is now on cep staff.

The problem is, the President is a woeful excuse of a public figure and he said "grab em by the pussy" and he probably does get a lot of action.  I doubt if he wasn't rich - in the physical state and mental health he is in- he would not have the beautiful wife he has now or the greedy money hungry ex wife he has.

LMs argument about rape victims was not misogynistic and has been misinterpreted as such.

Case in point: Craig McLaughlin has had to stand down from his theatre productions due to being nsmed as a sexual harasser in 2014 in his lead role as a transvestite.  He has a 30 year career in entertainment and should be in jail for his woeful rendition of "Hey Mona" but is going through hell publically without any actual evidence, charges laid or any prior complaints being made to the theatre company.  He is shattered.  This is the two sides of sexual assault.  Yes victims need to survive and get support and justice.  Rape is henious.  The accused get named in public.  Hence when there are times proven false or innovent, the accused life is over regardless.  An employer can google their name and the rape comes up first.  


LM never said their was justifiable rape ever.  

He was simply aggravated the President was put out there as an actual rapist since hes never even been charged at all with such a crime.


I have read the exchange and would really hope that CFC or Toothpastedog please step in.


There is no misogyny at all, Im a woman, heard a lot of things, nothing is that offensive to warrant a 6 month ban.


If you want him gone then please just tell him and dont use weak excuses like that. Its really insulting to women who are pretty strong and dont sweat the small stuff.


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## swilow

We are not going to overturn his ban or shorten it. We have literally voted and a majority voted against. There is no point in this conversation really because the decision has been made and communicated to Liquid.  This is done and no argument can be put forward to change this. I'm sorry but that's how it is. 

I'm going to say this again.  Liquid didn't get banned for 6 months for his one post. It is his huge history of infractions that meant a further infraction point AUTOMATICALLY banned him. That is our system, like it or not. He has run out of chances, just like droppers. 

I know it seems harsh but it is simply the consequence of his actions. He is responsible for this, not Bluelight. Its not personal or based on his beliefs, that is truly a distortion of the reality here.  Believe what you want but I'm telling you the truth. We are not tyrants or trying to promote any political ideology, we are trying to run a HR website.  CEP is merely a sideshow to the main event.


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## alasdairm

^ thanks swilow.

the issue has been reviewed and the infraction stands. nothing is going to change that.

zephyr, don't forget that the straw that broke the camel's back, in isolation, is just a straw. i don't want liquidmethod gone - if it did, why wouldn't i just permaban him myself?

ce&p is trying hard to foster an environment where discussion is constructive and civil. let's try to focus on that - opinions from all sides of the political compass are welcome.

asked and answered. and closed. thanks.

alasdair


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