# Kratom Addiction/ Need Help After Withdrawals Are Over



## Beat It

The last 6 months have been by far the most productive of my life. Great grades in school (3.75 GPA) full time, full time job, working out everyday, reading a lot, writing a lot of music and living with my girlfriend. All thanks to Kratom, no other drugs were really used or needed. Kratom increases my motivation, helps with depression/anxiety, and helps me focus/ retain information. However, bank account is running thin and I'm outa school and lost my job so I didn't have the excuse to continue taking it. It was hard to quit, took a lot out of me. Despite what people say, when you use Kratom daily for a long time, the withdrawals are painful. Went through a lot of Ambien to sleep the first few days off and a bunch of Loperamide for my stomach and then had to sit through days 3-5 without anything to help. Finally got my Ambien prescription refilled but I'm taking too much of those 4/ day to sleep though night. I'm on day 8, Need some help. My stomach is well enough to eat but the depression/anxiety is killing me. Never had any problems with the drug until I got off of it. I know it just takes time but I want some relief now and something to help get my motivated to get out of bed. It feels like the Ambien is counterproductive but it's the only think that helps with the anxiety. Trying to get used to not having my super powers, feel like I've been crippled.


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## andyn6990

Heya dude, Im currently having the same problem as you, Ive been taking kratom for about 6 months ive been finding it a wonder drug for my anxiety and depression issues, Im currently taking about 150 to 200g of bali a week , Ive tried kicking it and had a really awful time my depression was so bad i was having some psychotic symptoms and panic attacks i couldnt believe that kratom could do that and am now petrified to kick it again :-( Im currently about to try and taper down slowly and hope it works better , I wake up mornings and my head is so foggy and disconnected and all i think about is getting the kratom down and all the symptoms just dissapear, I would suggest tapering down slowly instead of just stopping cold turkey i think that was my big mistake last time i just didnt expect the horrid mental agonizing depression and panic i was getting, What kratom are you currently taking and what dosage? ,im doin toss and wash with the powder! This is a great place for support and everyone understands what your going through here ,Feel free to give me a pm sometime! Andy!


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## podsnomo

Beat and Andy, I know the fear you have of the depression/anxiety when it's not there, while you are on kratom, and the feeling shitty when you stop. I'm using Kratom now after a long taper down off of a ridiculous amount of poppy pod grounds. 

For a taper, find your dose that makes you feel just normal. Drop by 25-30% and keep that dose for 3-5 days, repeat. If you make a drop and get some symptoms, they should go away soon. If they don't, stay on that level until you even out some, then drop again. When you get down to a tiny amount and feel ready, that's when you quit.

If you can't or don't want to taper, look into people's methods for quitting opiates and the helper drugs they use, and other things like saunas, exercise, etc.. For PAWS, some have had success with DXM. I think I'm going to try low level doses of that, doses that won't produce any kind of trip and see how they affect the PAWS. Your depression/anxiety/insomnia after the initial withdrawal is PAWS. 

Andy, none of us 3 here can do PMs yet as we are all still under 50 posts. Maybe we can have a good discussion here and fix that. I hope you guys log in and check a lot. I'd love to help you both and will appreciate your support in return. 

Peace,
pnm


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## Beat It

Thanks guys, I'm new to the site and wasn't sure if I would get much of a response. I was worried a lot people were going to respond, "oh it's just Kratom withdrawal." I don't think people take Kratom addiction very seriously. I'm glad to hear someone with the same testimony! This forum is awesome! Everyone I talk to in real life hasn't even heard of the drug.

Well I've actually successfully been off of Kratom for 10 days now, but I was consuming about a half pound every 10-14 days. For me, tapering didn't work because I didn't have that kind of self restraint. I just felt like taking my beating all at once but it has been a long painful ride. The physical symptoms lasted 5 days but then the depression/anxiety started to kick in. Those have yet to subside. I also lost my job 4 days into withdrawal. Didn't help!

At this point I'm having a difficult time with depression/anxiety, sleeping and eating a healthy three meals a day. I was 167 before with very little body fat and I'm almost down to 150 now. I'm also in a mental fog all of the time and I'm too stressed to function. I guess I'm looking for ways to get back to normal now. I'm taking a lot of ambien and I'm concerned that might be messing with my recovery. Plus, I don't want to trade a kratom addiction of an ambien addiction, the stuff is bad I hear.


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## Beat It

andyn6990 said:


> I would suggest tapering down slowly instead of just stopping cold turkey i think that was my big mistake last time i just didnt expect the horrid mental agonizing depression and panic i was getting,



That's what I'm saying! I could deal with the physical part way better than the secondary mental part. At this point I just don't want to get back on it!... Way too damn expensive.


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## podsnomo

Damn, well if you can't taper, do all the other things that help your brain readjust. Basically, your brain stopped making it's own morphine to some extent. So, do things that make it squirt out some endorphin, which is short for endogenous morphine. I can send you a link if you haven't read about these things. 

Masturbate, often, or have sex if you have SO. Exercise, lightly, twice daily or so. Eat healthy food. Keep going. Do stuff. Plan and execute. It is expensive to taper, so if you find you just can't cope, invest in just enough to taper. But, be glad it's not a hardcore H habit you're coming off of. I'm guessing (and hoping) you're nowhere near curled up in the fetal position in the bathroom puking and shitting on yourself. So, not sure it makes you feel better, but it could be worse, and is a good caution not to take your affinity for opiate-like stuff to the next level.

FWIW, I took 120mg of DXM this morning and though I felt pretty odd, I didn't have nearly as much anxiety and the chills totally went away. I've felt better all day. 120mg is basically 4 times the recommended dose, which seems like a lot, but it's nowhere near the 300-500 needed for a trip, or the 700+ some robo trippers report using. I may use this dose, or maybe a bit less each morning for a few days and then taper that down. It seems to be easing the transition. Be careful though, if you decide to take more than the recommended dose, the first time you do it make sure you've got nothing to do for the rest of the day. It affects everyone differently. 

Are you using loperamide and other helpers like aleve, etc.? Also, melatonin and valerian for sleep if you get the insomnia. Let me know if I can help. Definitely advise you cut down on the ambien and supplement it with valerian and melatonin. The sleep will come back, eventually. But you don't want to get in trouble with the ambien. Way worse news than quitting a kratom addiction. Taper the ambien, add the valerian, and just force yourself to eat during the day. Proteins, veggies and fruit, the fresher the better. Stay away from red meat as it has a hormone that increases inflammation, and you need that like you need another hole in your arse.

Peace and love,
pnm


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## Beat It

Thanks for the informative post pod. Today is first day since I stopped that I've actually felt better. (day 15) I'm on my last script of ambien for a long time and I only have 8 left so I'm gonna lower my doses to half a night until my script is out. Gonna be hard though since its been the only thing I've been able to use to help me get to sleep. Loperamide has been a lifesaver and has really made my recovery thus far work. I think getting a good run in and eating some fresh food really helped me feel better today. Without being judged, does anyone know how long until I can take a dose of Kratom again without feeling withdrawals from using? In the future, I want to be able to take a dose on the weekends to relax but I don't want to precipitate another withdrawal.


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## podsnomo

Good question beatit. If you are sure you can keep it to just the weekends, then you have more control than I. I tried that many times. Never worked for me, and I'd caution against it. 

As far as how long you should wait, I'd suggest 30 days of feeling good without it. I'd also urge you to leave open the option of not going back to it just for the weekends, that is, not going back at all. IME, you can do this without causing serious withdrawals, though you'll get some minor ones. Worse, IMO, is that you'll reignite your cravings every time. Right now, I hazard to guess, that your desire to use on the weekends in the future is because of your obsession to feel that good feeling again. Totally normal. And I'd be the last one to judge you for it. But if you try to just use on the weekends you will, likely, torture yourself during the week with the psychological cravings. Stronger men than I have succumbed to these and gone back to their old habits, and usually worse upon the return to the habit. 

Kudos on the good run and eating better. I'm so out of shape, and a cig smoker, so 40-60 pushups over the course of an afternoon is all I can do, but it's better than nothing. 

IF you go back to using once on a weekend here and there, be very careful. You get that Kratom in your hands, you take a dose, you feel good, then it wears off...again, and you think "ah what the hell, 2 doses is no biggie, then no more till next weekend". Then, some withdrawals, probably minor, and they remind of the worse ones you just went through. The panic of doing that again, and you just want to stave it off for now. "OK, just dose now and feel OK now, then worry about later later." Then, poof. The habit's back. 

That's what I've done anyway. And I know of tons of guys who have done the same. Wouldn't you like to live a nice happy life and be pleased by the things that please normal, sober people? I would, and that's where I'm trying to get to. Once we've had a habit though, we have some feel-shitty to go through to pay for all the feel-good we had. I'm trying to spread out the feel shitty. I got off of pods, from what I've read that's a lot tougher than Kratom. But now I'm tapering Kratom, so I know that ain't no easy road either. 

You might be able to handle the weekend only thing, I don't know you at all. But I know addicts, and IF you are one...well you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber. If you wanna try it, I wish you the best. For now, just take it as it comes, day at a time, and see if you can do 30 days without. You might be feeling so good then you won't want to chance going back to your habit, and you can spend that cash on something more lasting than a buzz. Do what you will. My main advice is be kind to yourself, and leave that option open of not going back to using ever. You may find it to be better.

Love and peace,
pods-no-more


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## Beat It

Yeah I hear what your saying. After going through the last (correction) 13 days as of today, I don't ever want to get physically addicted to anything. For my experience, it took 12 days for all of the physical w/d symptoms to stop and the severe depression/anxiety to lift. Although, at this point, there are still some lingering symptoms like depression/anxiety and frustration, these symptoms have become much more manageable in the last couple of days! While I know that there are going to be/ already been others who's experiences with withdrawals were much worse than mine (no I never shat on myself in the fetal position), mine was bad enough that I never want to go through that again! 

However, at the same time, I don't want to demonize Kratom use and forget about all of the good qualities it has. It was my fault that I started abusing the drug and using it everyday all day thinking that the positive effects would last forever. I also don't want to forget the reason i started using it in the first place, to quit drinking. I had a very bad reputation with my drinking habits and rightfully so. I used to drink all the time, black out every time, break stuff and mess friendships up. I never want to go back to that. So, I hope that after I have enough sober time under my belt, I will be able to use Kratom recreationally and responsibly. 

Pods-no-more, you've got a great head on you shoulders. Maybe you've been through sometime like this before? I'm gonna take your advise on waiting for 30 days and keeping the option in my mind of not ever using it again. The one thing I've never really tried since I started using drugs to be happy is getting sober and staying sober long enough to really feel better. I think I'm gonna head in that direction and see where it takes me. Maybe someday I can forget about using...hmm


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## herbavore

Hey, all! just a welcome to all three of you and also kudos for your mutual support--that's what we are all here for. Using this thread to discuss what you are doing and helping each other is great--no need to PM unless you have something more private. (P.S. This thread is highly useful for the post count )


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## podsnomo

Thanks for the compliment beatit. And I am both glad for you and proud of you for considering that option of staying clean. For me, I wish I had done that a loooooong time ago, but now I'm fighting what I'm fighting, and I'm making progress still! 

And yessiree, I've been through lots like that before, and maybe worse. I'm not saying it was harder for me...it's hard for everybody, and you're no exception. It just may be that I've done the tough road a few more times, and I'm looking to never look at that road again.

So, if you said it before about using kratom for quitting drinking, I missed it. I started using pods regularly when I quit drinking... And pods aren't too much different in this department. That is, the department of needing/wanting something to get a buzz from. It was for me like, OK, now I'm "sober". I don't get drunk all the time, but I take these pods, and they make me feel better, the way kratom does, and SO, it's like still having something you can use to alter you mood to get it where you want  is nice.

It was like a safety blanket for me.  I was sober from alcohol, and much healthier as all could see, and I could attend an AA meeting with a mild pod buzz or a kratom buzz and no one was the wiser. So, then me thinks me is invincible and in no danger. Until the day(s) I begin to realize that my problem is getting worse, just like my drinking did.

Addictions seem to have some basic patterns in my mind. 1. Drug/alcohol/whatever makes you feel great! 2. You keep doing it. 3. It's starts to not work as well as it did in the beginning. 4. You use more.  5. You keep using more and add something else to help it make you feel better. 6. Things start shitting on you. 7. You want a way out, but it's scary, so a total release of any mind-mood altering drugs seems unfathomable. 8. You make great strides to quit the main evil, but keep or add a lesser evil. 9. The lesser evil makes you feel great. 10. see #1 and repeat. 

It's a sure trap. And for those of us addiction-prone, it gets us often. If you can go back to using Kratom on the weekends for a good buzz, and that's all you want, why not go to working out, or skydiving, or something low key that is fun. You could have all that fun without putting yourself at serious risk for getting back into habit(s).''
Plus, the money you used to spend to get your kratom on, could be spent for these things, And DUDE, if you ever go skydiving, ...major cred among your peeps. Balls of steel he has, they'll say. I went. 

You say you never really tried being happy sober. Me either, for a rRrREEEALlly long time. It can happen though, and it's SUCH a much better happy than the sporadic happy of being buzzed and then not being buzzed but wanting to be. Try it. You have worth, value, and a life to live. Oh yeah, and if no one has told you that they love you today, well, I do. 

Aaaaaaaaand don't knock AA until you try it. A 12 step program seems extreme, like it's only for the people having seizures in the gutter before the liquor store opens. But it's not. The people there are amazing. From pot heads to hard core freebasers, an addict is an addict. If you have trouble staying clean, these people know the solution and live it. It's not for everybody, just for people who can't stay sober but want to, and in following a simple program, they do.

All my heart to your pain,
and all my hope to your recovery,
PNM


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## kickingkratom

Hi guys,

I've been addicted to kratom for 4 months.  Compared to some other stories I read, of people who were addicted for several years of daily use, even extracts, mine seems so trivial.  But I know I am addicted, and the withdrawal (PAWS I think) has been quite hard for me.  I'm currently nearing the end of my taper plan.  For 4 months I was using 10-20g of bali powder a day, then I cut that down to like 6g, and started tapering down and now I'm at 3g/day.  Tomorrow I'm planning on knocking it down again to 2.25g.  The depression and anxiety have been the hardest part for me.  And beatit, props on going cold turkey.  I tried that once and was overcome with *really* bad depression and hopelessness, so I know what you've been feeling.  Tapering has helped reduce the intensity by a lot, but it's still very frustrating and I believe taking a while longer.  I just want to be back to normal.  I am grateful though that I realized I had a problem before I continued to take kratom, because I know it would only make withdrawing that much worse, and I don't think anyone can take kratom for the rest of their life.

Reading about other people going through kratom withdrawal has helped me a lot.  I'll be checking back here probably daily for the next couple of weeks.  I too think that not many people take kratom withdrawal seriously, and I wouldn't know how bad other drug withdrawals could be (I'm sure they can be magnitudes worse) but this is the first time I've ever been addicted to something and I really have no one else to talk about this with.


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## slayerhatesusall

podsnomo said:


> Good question beatit. If you are sure you can keep it to just the weekends, then you have more control than I. I tried that many times. Never worked for me, and I'd caution against it.
> 
> As far as how long you should wait, I'd suggest 30 days of feeling good without it. I'd also urge you to leave open the option of not going back to it just for the weekends, that is, not going back at all. IME, you can do this without causing serious withdrawals, though you'll get some minor ones. Worse, IMO, is that you'll reignite your cravings every time. Right now, I hazard to guess, that your desire to use on the weekends in the future is because of your obsession to feel that good feeling again. Totally normal. And I'd be the last one to judge you for it. But if you try to just use on the weekends you will, likely, torture yourself during the week with the psychological cravings. Stronger men than I have succumbed to these and gone back to their old habits, and usually worse upon the return to the habit.
> 
> Kudos on the good run and eating better. I'm so out of shape, and a cig smoker, so 40-60 pushups over the course of an afternoon is all I can do, but it's better than nothing.
> 
> IF you go back to using once on a weekend here and there, be very careful. You get that Kratom in your hands, you take a dose, you feel good, then it wears off...again, and you think "ah what the hell, 2 doses is no biggie, then no more till next weekend". Then, some withdrawals, probably minor, and they remind of the worse ones you just went through. The panic of doing that again, and you just want to stave it off for now. "OK, just dose now and feel OK now, then worry about later later." Then, poof. The habit's back.
> 
> That's what I've done anyway. And I know of tons of guys who have done the same. Wouldn't you like to live a nice happy life and be pleased by the things that please normal, sober people? I would, and that's where I'm trying to get to. Once we've had a habit though, we have some feel-shitty to go through to pay for all the feel-good we had. I'm trying to spread out the feel shitty. I got off of pods, from what I've read that's a lot tougher than Kratom. But now I'm tapering Kratom, so I know that ain't no easy road either.
> 
> You might be able to handle the weekend only thing, I don't know you at all. But I know addicts, and IF you are one...well you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber. If you wanna try it, I wish you the best. For now, just take it as it comes, day at a time, and see if you can do 30 days without. You might be feeling so good then you won't want to chance going back to your habit, and you can spend that cash on something more lasting than a buzz. Do what you will. My main advice is be kind to yourself, and leave that option open of not going back to using ever. You may find it to be better.
> 
> Love and peace,
> pods-no-more



I've been taking kratom every 3 days for the past 6 months with the occasional week break and haven't got addicted to it again surprisingly, although I probably will eventually due to the annoying slight day after withdrawals and the fact that I only really get stuff done while on it, the other 2 days I'm bored and don't really do anything and only really enjoy anything while on it. Tried working out and it helps a bit but not enough. I would be surprised if I was able to not get addicted to it in the next month or so, and I don't really see why not, its really cheap and I'm not exactly strapped for cash, and it makes me feel good enough so I can actually get stuff done and isn't dangerous.
Maybe thats just the kratom talking for me since I took it yesterday, I don't even know anymore or care.


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## podsnomo

kickingkratom said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've been addicted to kratom for 4 months.  Compared to some other stories I read, of people who were addicted for several years of daily use, even extracts, mine seems so trivial.  But I know I am addicted, and the withdrawal (PAWS I think) has been quite hard for me.  I'm currently nearing the end of my taper plan.  For 4 months I was using 10-20g of bali powder a day, then I cut that down to like 6g, and started tapering down and now I'm at 3g/day.  Tomorrow I'm planning on knocking it down again to 2.25g.  The depression and anxiety have been the hardest part for me.  And beatit, props on going cold turkey.  I tried that once and was overcome with *really* bad depression and hopelessness, so I know what you've been feeling.  Tapering has helped reduce the intensity by a lot, but it's still very frustrating and I believe taking a while longer.  I just want to be back to normal.  I am grateful though that I realized I had a problem before I continued to take kratom, because I know it would only make withdrawing that much worse, and I don't think anyone can take kratom for the rest of their life.
> 
> Reading about other people going through kratom withdrawal has helped me a lot.  I'll be checking back here probably daily for the next couple of weeks.  I too think that not many people take kratom withdrawal seriously, and I wouldn't know how bad other drug withdrawals could be (I'm sure they can be magnitudes worse) but this is the first time I've ever been addicted to something and I really have no one else to talk about this with.




Hiya kratom kicker! No addiction is trivial and no person is trivial. You mention PAWS, and this acronym gets tossed around a lot. It stands, of course, for Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. But without an acute (CT) withdrawal, where does this syndrome come from? Answer, INMHO, our minds. Once we have a name for something we like to call it that, and if we're going through something we want to find out what it is, just knowing it has a name makes a person feel better, 'cause then you have a named entity with which to contend.

Here's the rub though, what your dealing with probably isn't PAWS, and anyway, no two people experience this so called PAWS the same way. 

Truth is: when you stop using a feel-good after using it for a long time, you go through some feel-shitty. Luckily the feel-shitty is shorter than the habit. But whatever we call it: PAWS, WDs, etc., .... it all comes down to adjusting to life without this expensive crap that keeps getting us further down that shit hill on which the opiate train runs to nowhere good. 

KickingKratom, don't worry if your taper is taking longer than you like. Do the taper you can do. Drop when you can, monitor yourself, and adjust your taper. For example, say you take a modest .25 gram drop, and it's kind of shitty, not dreadful, just not good, but you can still function. Good! Keep that dose until it gets better, and it will in a day or two. Then wait another day or two for the next drop. Point is, be kind to yourself, and don't expect miracles. Just go day by day, and do the best you can each day to get closer to your goal. Progress is all that is truly important. Schedules...fuck 'em. Focus on your progression.

I know you want to be back to normal, so do I. Whatever normal is, if you get there first, tell me about it. Just know that it will take some time. Everyone talks so depressedly about going through it, but what if we tried to think of it as labor pains in a days, weeks, or months long birth. Fuck the pain, right? I'm gonna get a NEW me outta this. I know the flipside of that too though, being in that place where you're so panicky, scared, depressed, and feeling like shit that that nice big green mound of kratom, or any other DOC, sounds like heaven. Coping skills are what we need for this part, coupled with the belief that we are good people trying to something extraordinary. Seriously, kicking an addiction out of self will is extraordinary. It's also kind of a paradox, because self will got us all into this mess. 

And to your point about taking kratom for life. You're right, it's not suited for that, unless you want to be eating buckets of it for breakfast lunch and dinner everyday, which, if done, could lead to the first ever kratom death. Kratom is a tricky animal. It's been used well by those tapering off of serious opiate habits, but it's also been the thing that, once it begins to require huge doses, leads people to heavier shit like oxy/roxy/h/pods and so on. 

Last thing here. you seem to worry about the fact that kicking hardcore habits is much more involved, gross painful and so on. Just because you're not going through  hardcore H withdrawal doesn't mean your addiction is trivial. And for damn sure, YOU are not trivial. You're here aren't you? Trying to figure out what to do. 

It's the psychological part that is the worst once the physical symptoms begin to clear. ANd whether it's some who shit themselves for days or someone in a tornado mentally over trying to kick kratom, it's impossible to compare the psychological symptoms of WD. It's also pointless to compare them, except just to share experiences and try to learn from others and help others. KickingK, you're going through TOUGH shit. I feel you my friend. Don't think that just because you haven't lost your hous and your family and years to prison time and been to hospital-detox 8 times that your plight is unimportant. On the CONTRARY.

Not only are you just as important, and not only are your feelings and pain just as legitimate as any other addict of whatever severity, but the goals we addicts have are the same. Sobriety, one. Then, eventually, happiness in sobriety, and then helping others who have fucked themselves the way we have. 

2.25 g/day is pretty low (not extract right?). Either way, just keep moving toward where you want to be. 

I'm currently at 3-4 grams 2-3 time a day. This is the taper of a taper, down from buckets of poppy pod grounds multiple times daily. I haven't set my taper plan for the kratom yet, but tomorrow, I will take less than today, and see if that's ok. If it is, then I'll take a little less the next day. When I start to get problems I'll stay on the problem dose until it becomes a manageable dose (3-5) days. Then drop, adjust, drop adjuct, until ZERO.

And while doing this I am going to phase in a workout schedule as my kratom use phases out. That, and I'm going to eat better, and be nicer, and just keep that idea in my mind of freedom, of waking up every day feeling good or at least not-shitty, of not obsessing over using, of not craving, of just living, because then I can truly do whatever I want, and I won't be wanting drugs or drink then.

All my best to you,
pods no more


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## podsnomo

Slayer, your tone worries me, and I don't mean it derogatory. It's just... You're here checking out these threads but seem to be tempted to say "Well fuck it,". You seem resigned to be heading down the road to solidifying your addiction to Kratom. You say you don't even know o care anymore.

I can identify with those feelings. I had them EVERY day when I was hard core drinking and taking poppy pods daily. 

I can't say anything that will *poof* make things better. 

All I can say is that there are solutions and you don't have to live like that. 

You'd be surprised how many people are in our kinds of shoes and never talk to each other,
which is mainly why I attend AA. The content and literature is good, yeah,
but getting to meet and talk with people who are or were as fucked up as me or worse,
that's fuckin' gravy. 
It's like all these people who would prolly never talk to one another, and we have this common bond,
because as soon as I meet a knew person, we already have a major fucking demon in common.
It makes unexpected friendships quite surprising.

I'm rambling. I hope you get through the darkness of post use.
It goes away.
Whatever happens, we don't want that to happen today.

If no one has told you they love you today,
well,
I DO.

Peace,
pnm


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## Eyes On the Roll

Really?? Kratom withdrawals?? I used to take 300mg a day of oxycodone, and I quit cold turkey. Sure, the withdrawals sucked, but I stuck it out and got through it by myself. Are kratom withdrawals really this bad? Compared with real opiates. Oxycodone withdrawals are bad, but I got through them nonetheless. Even though it was a real opiate the process of quitting wasn't as dramatic as you guys are making kratom withdrawals sound. Never knew kratom had real withdrawals.


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## podsnomo

EyesOTR, Yes and no. There are probably tons of people out there who quit kratom no problem, but everyone is different. For the majority of people it might be easy to quit, but for some of us it obviously is not. Your post borders on condescending and derogatory. It borders on calling these guys wimps, on making their plights seem trivial. And it more than borders on pissing me off a bit.

I'm glad you got through that WD process from that serious habit. Hats off to you for that, but you must surely know that people with a fifth or less of your intake have had far worse troubles in WD, PAWS and staying clean. There are way too many variables at play to say that your process of quitting wasn't as dramatic as my friends' habits here. Everyone is at different places in their lives, have varying degrees of psychological problems, health issues, life circumstances, body chemistry, and on and on.

So, here's your lesson for the day: YES, for some people, kratom has real and serious WDs. It seems they may be more psychological than regular opiates, but that doesn't matter. These guys, and me too, are suffering and trying to beat addictions. So please, don't come into this thread and SEEM to act like your harder or stronger because you kicked a massive oxy habit. I'm really glad you did, and I hope that that part of it can be of some inspiration to my guys here. But ANYbody coming in here and even hinting at downplaying the troubles of these guys will get a rebuke from me. Kindness and support is all that should be in this thread as we support each other in achieving our goals. 

Kindly, EOTR, please be kind to these guys or just don't say anything. 

To Slaying, Kicking, Herbavore, Beatit, and Andy and anyone else reading this, I've got your back.

I hope I wasn't too harsh on you EOTR, you really do have something to be proud of kicking that habit. Please understand that anything that might dampen these guys spirits and jeopardize their success I will roundly and soundly refute, rebuke, and ask kindly for more empathy and kindness.

I love you all, you too EOTR,
podsnomo


----------



## Eyes On the Roll

The reason why I ask is because I'm on probation now, and I'm a poly substance abuser. I started drinking, and that's about all I can do, and drinking isn't too good for you. I was thinking about buying kratom online, and only because I thought it was non physically addicting. I don't want to get hooked on something again, but I figured if I could substitute drinking with kratom.. well you know.


----------



## kickingkratom

pnm,

I really, really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my, and everyone else's comments.  It has helped me a lot, and I'm glad to know I have your support and also that you're going through something very similar to me.

With that being said, I unfortunately also have to say that today has probably been the worst day so far.  Again, it's the depression and anxiety that have been unbearable. I also just realized that it is only the 6th day since I have significantly reduced my daily doses (probably by too much).  This is both comforting and worrying for me.  It worries me because, well fuck, it’s only day 6.  It feels like it has been forever, and I was hoping that the symptoms would be lessening.  On the other hand, the majority of kratom withdrawal stories I’ve read have said that days 7-14 can actually be the worst.  This makes sense to me because it's been almost a week since I dropped from using 10-20g (of powder) a day down to 4g, and am now at 3g.  I think I might hover around this level for a while because I think I have a few days of shit coming up.  Hopefully by mid-end of this week I'll be feeling okay again and ready to decrease my dosage.  

Good luck pnm, slayer, beatit and andy with your tapering/kicking (and anyone else too) and I'll be checking back here frequently! By the way, if anyone has found out some strategies for dealing with the withdrawal please share.  I've found valerian root and camomile help for sleeping, and exercise (lifting weights for me) makes me feel better for a few hours afterwards.


----------



## podsnomo

Eyes On the Roll said:


> The reason why I ask is because I'm on probation now, and I'm a poly substance abuser. I started drinking, and that's about all I can do, and drinking isn't too good for you. I was thinking about buying kratom online, and only because I thought it was non physically addicting. I don't want to get hooked on something again, but I figured if I could substitute drinking with kratom.. well you know.



I see. Sorry again if I was harsh. I'm kinda protective of these guys. It's hard to say man. Kratom is certainly better for you than drinking, but it can become addictive and/or habit forming. The withdrawals from k are usually described as far less severe than from opiates, but I think it's more that they are just different. For me, and I think for a couple of the others here, if you use it to combat depression and you start on it in a sort of vulnerable, tough spot in your life, then coming off it is awful because the psychological WDs can be maddening. Also, when I ran out of pods once, I was trying to take enough of the stuff to stay feeling good or OK for the whole day, since I was working long days. Problem is, once you take so much in a day, and if you build a tolerance, it quits working and seriously fucks up your stomach. It's a weird animal, I think partially because it's a plant, with lots of complex stuff, and not a nice refined pharm. It doesn't show up in UAs and is legal, so if you think it could help you quit drinking, maybe you should try it. 

My caution would be to prepare yourself to be moderate with it. If you can, use it only once or twice a week. It's not some awesome rush like pharms or H or anything, but it does have a nice mood lift and some hydro-ish feeling to it. And IMO it's far less bad for you than drinking. I should know, I'm an alcoholic, and in my worst days before I quit drinking I was at about 20+ drinks a day, all in the afternoon/evening/night. Let us know if you have more questions about kratom.

Peace,
pnm


----------



## podsnomo

kickingkratom said:


> pnm,
> 
> I really, really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my, and everyone else's comments.  It has helped me a lot, and I'm glad to know I have your support and also that you're going through something very similar to me.
> 
> With that being said, I unfortunately also have to say that today has probably been the worst day so far.  Again, it's the depression and anxiety that have been unbearable. I also just realized that it is only the 6th day since I have significantly reduced my daily doses (probably by too much).  This is both comforting and worrying for me.  It worries me because, well fuck, it’s only day 6.  It feels like it has been forever, and I was hoping that the symptoms would be lessening.  On the other hand, the majority of kratom withdrawal stories I’ve read have said that days 7-14 can actually be the worst.  This makes sense to me because it's been almost a week since I dropped from using 10-20g (of powder) a day down to 4g, and am now at 3g.  I think I might hover around this level for a while because I think I have a few days of shit coming up.  Hopefully by mid-end of this week I'll be feeling okay again and ready to decrease my dosage.
> 
> Good luck pnm, slayer, beatit and andy with your tapering/kicking (and anyone else too) and I'll be checking back here frequently! By the way, if anyone has found out some strategies for dealing with the withdrawal please share.  I've found valerian root and camomile help for sleeping, and exercise (lifting weights for me) makes me feel better for a few hours afterwards.



The good news is that if today is the worst day so far, it is likely to be the worst day of all, meaning it will continue to get better. I think you're right on with staying at that dose until it evens out a bit. Have you tried splitting it into 2 doses. Like instead of 3 grams a day, 4g/day in 2 doses of 2, then taper from there. I ask b/c the effects of kratom are short lived.

Anyway, I did what you did with the pods, during my taper on one of my drops I totally overdid it, but it got better after a few days, and looking back I am glad I did that. It seemed to make the rest of the steadier taper easier, and then jumping to no pods and kratom for staving symptoms was not as bad as I though it would be. The thing to remember, as hard as it is sometimes, that this shitty feeling is TEMPORARY. It will get better, little by little. You are fighting the good fight, and you are worth it.

Try this, take a sheet of paper and write on it in huge letters something like this, "You are a wonderful person. You are doing something extraordinary. You are worth it. Keep calm, keep going, keep fighting." Place it somewhere you will see it often. 

The fact that you are working out is effing HUGE. Part of kratom WD and opiate WD is the fatigue oddly mixed with anxiety and depression. Weghtlifting is great for reducing that anxiety, lifting good energy, helping you sleep, and getting your brain to squirt out some more endorphins, which it got used to doing less of while you were using the kratom more heavily. 

I'm going to join a gym, but for now, when I get squirmy anxiety feeling welling up, I just drop and do as many push ups as I can. When it comes back, I do it again. I'm going to add cardio soon, and I think you might be at the point that this would be a good idea too. Weights are great, but for anxiety and sleeping better, adding 15-20 minutes of cardio to that workout will help tons. Also, you should be eating healthy, taking vitamins, magnesium and potassium esp, or get the potassium from a a banana or three a day. You should be masturbating or having sex at every opportunity too to help with the brain making more of its own good stuff again. 

Behavioral things help too. Do something creative. Anything. Write a poem, even a lousy one. Who the fuck cares if it's good or not. You will have created something. No one ever needs to read it. Go outside, take pictures of nature or whatever interests you, esp if you have a decent camera. Watch something that makes you laugh. I used to think Jackass was retarded but I watched #2 and laughed, and it helped. When in the worst funk, forcing yourself to do some housework is great. Do a load of laundry, clean your kitchen, if you can keep going and clean it all, or break it up over days. A clean living space helps engender a clean mental space. 

Major props to you on continuing your path to freedom. I'm with you all the way.

Peace, love, and applause,
pnm


----------



## podsnomo

Beat It?!?! Where'd you go man? You OK? Damn greenlighter status. I'd PM you if I could. I hope you're well, but if you're doing shitty, don't be ashamed to come in here and tell us about it. We're here for you.


----------



## stardust.hero

^You reach BLer status when you hit 50 posts. You're there in 14 posts. Just FYI .


----------



## Repin

Yeah I know. I just took a "vacation" to quit. i.e. going to Maine and using like a teaspoon after ten o'clock at night. At one point my addiction was close two hundred dollars a WEEK (damn tincture) but recently it has been easier, cuz honestly I've weaned off over the last six months. Was still using daily, just a lot less maybe a half ounce - to an ounce throughout the day. Maine was to kick it totally. 
    I can honestly say that after having decreased my dosage it was easier. I'd gone without during the two hundred dollar a week phase, and it was AWFUL. Shit's serious...
    I'll tell you the big problem for me i can see is that i'm a lot more anti-social without it throughout the day (i'm still taking a tiny amount at night, cuz for me it's hardest then, but hope to get off that too). I don't want to talk to girls, go out; i just want to watch tv and rest. The physical w/d's are gone, it's all mental now -and, yeah, i miss my old motivation. I just wish I'd never started the shit bc all you think is "Gee, maybe K was good for me. Maybe I sort of needed it medicinally..." But I know that can't be true. I'd get so weird on it sometimes, sensitive, and objectively I can see it was ruining my life (i'd been taking it for six years). So it has to go....Hope you're doing better. I can't tell when you posted cuz the dates seem screwy.


----------



## podsnomo

Thanks. I already knew that. It's just that I don't post unless I feel I have something worthwhile to say, which just isn't as often as I'd like.


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## podsnomo

Repin said:


> Yeah I know. I just took a "vacation" to quit. i.e. going to Maine and using like a teaspoon after ten o'clock at night. At one point my addiction was close two hundred dollars a WEEK (damn tincture) but recently it has been easier, cuz honestly I've weaned off over the last six months. Was still using daily, just a lot less maybe a half ounce - to an ounce throughout the day. Maine was to kick it totally.
> I can honestly say that after having decreased my dosage it was easier. I'd gone without during the two hundred dollar a week phase, and it was AWFUL. Shit's serious...
> I'll tell you the big problem for me i can see is that i'm a lot more anti-social without it throughout the day (i'm still taking a tiny amount at night, cuz for me it's hardest then, but hope to get off that too). I don't want to talk to girls, go out; i just want to watch tv and rest. The physical w/d's are gone, it's all mental now -and, yeah, i miss my old motivation. I just wish I'd never started the shit bc all you think is "Gee, maybe K was good for me. Maybe I sort of needed it medicinally..." But I know that can't be true. I'd get so weird on it sometimes, sensitive, and objectively I can see it was ruining my life (i'd been taking it for six years). So it has to go....Hope you're doing better. I can't tell when you posted cuz the dates seem screwy.



Hi Repin and welcome! You're newer than me! It sucks that you're having to deal with what you're dealing with. For all the doubters out there who think kratom is no big deal... here's another one. Glad to have you here though. 

Are you doing the kinds of things that opiate withdrawers do? Loperamide for the shits is a must, unless those are gone now. Sounds like you might be in the psychological phase, which people call PAWS, but I think it's better to just call it the psychological phase. Having a name and thus a colllection of symptoms with it makes it seem harder to get through. If you read to much about PAWS, IME, you get more of the symptoms. 

So, are you doing things like taking dietary supplements, magnesium and potassium esp? You can get the potassium from a couple bananas a day. Exercising? That's a must for energy and getting your brain to start to return to normal. Hobby? Just do SOMEthing. 

The bad news is that this phase can last up to six months. The good news is that each passing day is better than the day before, on average, and each passing week will be noticeably better until one day you're all good. Poof. I hope this isn't discouraging. You for sure got it right about needing to quit. Just remember each day will get better, and you can speed that up by doing some of those things, and other stuff too. And then one day you'll realize you're feeling better, sleeping well, good energy, enjoying life, and all without a substance clinging to you. That day WILL come. This shit is temporary.

I'm probably going to need someone to tell me that same stuff and more soon. I got onto to kratom after tapering and kicking a big pod habit. Now I'm tapering the kratom. I'm down to 3-4 grams twice a day. It's progress. 4 grams of kratom wouldn't have even been noticeable a couple months ago. Now it keeps me ok and gives some pep. But I don't wanna be on it long. Esp not 6 years. JeebusChreebus! How'd you do that repin? 200 bucks a week on kratom is more than I've heard of. Mad props for getting down to the dose you're on now. It'll get better. It will.

Oh, and they use the European date system, so, DD/MM/YYYY instead of MM/DD/YYYY like in the states. 

Let me know if I can help you in any way.

Peace and kindness,
pnm


----------



## silentcowboy

Repin said:


> Yeah I know. I just took a "vacation" to quit. i.e. going to Maine and using like a teaspoon after ten o'clock at night. At one point my addiction was close two hundred dollars a WEEK (damn tincture) but recently it has been easier, cuz honestly I've weaned off over the last six months. Was still using daily, just a lot less maybe a half ounce - to an ounce throughout the day. Maine was to kick it totally.
> I can honestly say that after having decreased my dosage it was easier. I'd gone without during the two hundred dollar a week phase, and it was AWFUL. Shit's serious...
> I'll tell you the big problem for me i can see is that i'm a lot more anti-social without it throughout the day (i'm still taking a tiny amount at night, cuz for me it's hardest then, but hope to get off that too). I don't want to talk to girls, go out; i just want to watch tv and rest. The physical w/d's are gone, it's all mental now -and, yeah, i miss my old motivation. I just wish I'd never started the shit bc all you think is "Gee, maybe K was good for me. Maybe I sort of needed it medicinally..." But I know that can't be true. I'd get so weird on it sometimes, sensitive, and objectively I can see it was ruining my life (i'd been taking it for six years). So it has to go....Hope you're doing better. I can't tell when you posted cuz the dates seem screwy.



Mad props for the taper! Can you give me some tips? im trying to taper my habit to cost me less, i dont plan on stopping but some days i just feel like gettin buzzed and it throws that day out the window. any tips for tapering would be appreciated


----------



## Beat It

Hey guys, sorry about disappearing for a few days. I've kinda been veg'd out smoking da ganj. -_- Totally immersed in it. Haha I know it's probably not the most productive thing to do but, the good news is, I haven't taken any more Kratom. (day 19) Update on my medication treatment, I've got off of my loperamide doses (feel fine, maybe just went through a day of some unpleasant side effects of not taking any) and last night was my first night without any ambien for sleep. I'm a little worried about coming off of Ambien after about 3 months of using it every night but it's been more than 24 hours and I feel better than when I was on the stuff. It hasn't been too bad for the last week either. I think the secondary psychological phase was what was really getting to me. 

I think the most critical part of getting back to normal after I got through the physical withdrawals has been running/exercise, eating, COFFEE and just staying busy. When I run, I run constantly for around 45 mins and really get my endorphins going. With eating, you can go the healthy route if you want, probably helps, but I just think it helps to really eat ANYTHING. A lot of my withdrawal symptoms worsened the longer I didn't eat. Coffee/Cigs just to wake you up and boost your energy. Lastly, staying busy has been really important after I got past the first couple of weeks of wanting to do absolutely nothing. Your gonna feel shitty where ever you go, doesn't mean you can't get outside and get some sun/ go to school and meet people. You'll feel better after doing stuff anyways. Also, give yourself a break on the weekends, drink some beers, go see some live music, do something you remember enjoying when you were sober. Just remember the shitty feelings you have aren't rational, their the result of taking a drug.

I applaud all of you who are trying to taper and get sober. I know Kratom is glorified as being the cure all for addictions but out of all the drugs I've tried, Kratom has been the hardest to quit. Probably because I've glorified it, and rationalized to myself, "oh well it's not as bad as alcohol, or I know I'm spending 80 bucks a week but at least it's not as expensive as coke, or at least it's not as addictive as heroin." All bullshit. I'm sure most of you know the routine. If I recognized it as a drug just like all the other's I would have never got addicted to it. Plus the short-term effects are great but the long term effects to Kratom can be brutal just like all drugs. (Hallucinations, physical dependence, mental dependence, plus there's not any study on how it effects the liver that I know of) My point isn't to bash on Kratom because I know if I used it responsibly and not regularly I would have been fine like most people. It was just the addict in me taking disguise and posing as something harmless. I think Kratom is great for quitting other substances but it has to be used responsibly. (Couple days a week, not everyday)


----------



## Beat It

Yup that's a true story, when I stopped drinking I starting taking Kratom regularly and told everyone/ including myself, I was sober for some 40 days. I mean, it's really not like getting fucked up, pissing yourself, having sex with someone you just met or the other countless stupid shit you do when your really messed up but lets see. It's a lot easier to get addicted to something you see as harmless, it is a expensive habit, and you look like a total weirdo consuming some mysterious leaf in a bag. Funny fact, my life really was getting better when I started using Kratom, until I got to about steps 3 and 4. Then the high level of motivation started to disappear and the "just get fucked up" part starting to set in... sigh.

Really want to start going to NA or something like that, because even this site has been helpful. Hearing other people's story and hearing about people getting better is really motivational.


----------



## Cold Turkey

Kratom sucks.  If you have never touched it, don't ever do it.  It's every bit as addictive as any other opiate based pain medication.  Sure the WD may not be as dramatic as opiates, but WD symptoms are definitely not to be taken lightly and they are sever enough to make you want to drain your bank account.  It took 2 years for me to quit.  It's been 5 days now, after going cold turkey.  I am tempted to go get some now, but I don't dare reignite the addiction.  All I have to say, is good luck to anyone who is struggling with this seemingly innocent but totally evil and addictive crap!  They should call it Crapom.  Because that's what it is pure crap.  It has no redeeming qualities.  It's sold as a legal high.  It's a designer drug, and it's illegal in Thailand for good reason.  Just don't ever do it.  Not even once.  You might wake up 2 years later, broke without enough money to eat or buy gas to get to work.


----------



## silentcowboy

Cold Turkey said:


> Kratom sucks.  If you have never touched it, don't ever do it.  It's every bit as addictive as any other opiate based pain medication.  Sure the WD may not be as dramatic as opiates, but WD symptoms are definitely not to be taken lightly and they are sever enough to make you want to drain your bank account.  It took 2 years for me to quit.  It's been 5 days now, after going cold turkey.  I am tempted to go get some now, but I don't dare reignite the addiction.  All I have to say, is good luck to anyone who is struggling with this seemingly innocent but totally evil and addictive crap!  They should call it Crapom.  Because that's what it is pure crap.  It has no redeeming qualities.  It's sold as a legal high.  It's a designer drug, and it's illegal in Thailand for good reason.  Just don't ever do it.  Not even once.  You might wake up 2 years later, broke without enough money to eat or buy gas to get to work.



Just because its fucked up your life doesnt mean its total garbage. people die and ruin their lives with alcohol and cigarettes(a "legal high"), doctor prescribed meds like SSRI's have much longer W/D and i found the WD from paxil atleast twice as hard as a taper and detox off of OC. Benzos are more addictive and has a chance of killing you if you drop too quickly. Idc what you say about kratom, it saved my life from an oxy addiction <removed abusive comment - Vaya> i know its got down sides, which everything does. Idk what your deal is but id rather be depe ndent on kratom then any other substance (besides MJ). Your very uneducated about the plant. its not a designer drug, the powder is make from the actual leaves, and the reason its illegal in thailand is because it was effecting the opium trade. do your homework.
Ive been taking it for 2 years and im at ~15g a day, im trying to taper down to save money, i realize how i am psychologically and physically dependent on it, but to compared to almost every other drug - its the least of the evils. kratom does not give me mood swings like opiates do, I can make a bag last for a long time if i have too, its forgiving in this way. <Content removed - Please refrain from discussing dosing methods and positive effects of drugs in this forum - it tends to make the drug-taking more appealing, especially for those seeking total abstinence - Vaya> I can get by with probably 6-8g a day and feel fine. Keep in mind, ive been doing this daily (at a lower dose in the beginning) for 2 years, and ofcourse my tolerance and intake has increased, and im tapering. sorry for the long post but this plant means a lot to me, just like MJ means a lot to other people.


----------



## slayerhatesusall

Even if you don't take kratom every day you can still get slight w/ds from it after awhile, took about 4 weeks of me using it every 3 days to get some slightly annoying w/ds that last around 5 days. Nothing serious though but still annoying.
And how are you guys spending $80+ a week on kratom? You must be using extracts, when I was using it on a daily basis it never cost me more then $40 a month even when I was using a little less then half a pound of it per month once I had built a good tolerance up to it. I never used extracts except for free samples I got due to the insane price compared to the ground up leaf, they seem like a huge ripoff pricewise.


----------



## podsnomo

Beat It said:


> Hey guys, sorry about disappearing for a few days. I've kinda been veg'd out smoking da ganj. -_- Totally immersed in it. Haha I know it's probably not the most productive thing to do but, the good news is, I haven't taken any more Kratom. (day 19) Update on my medication treatment, I've got off of my loperamide doses (feel fine, maybe just went through a day of some unpleasant side effects of not taking any) and last night was my first night without any ambien for sleep. I'm a little worried about coming off of Ambien after about 3 months of using it every night but it's been more than 24 hours and I feel better than when I was on the stuff. It hasn't been too bad for the last week either. I think the secondary psychological phase was what was really getting to me.
> 
> I think the most critical part of getting back to normal after I got through the physical withdrawals has been running/exercise, eating, COFFEE and just staying busy. When I run, I run constantly for around 45 mins and really get my endorphins going. With eating, you can go the healthy route if you want, probably helps, but I just think it helps to really eat ANYTHING. A lot of my withdrawal symptoms worsened the longer I didn't eat. Coffee/Cigs just to wake you up and boost your energy. Lastly, staying busy has been really important after I got past the first couple of weeks of wanting to do absolutely nothing. Your gonna feel shitty where ever you go, doesn't mean you can't get outside and get some sun/ go to school and meet people. You'll feel better after doing stuff anyways. Also, give yourself a break on the weekends, drink some beers, go see some live music, do something you remember enjoying when you were sober. Just remember the shitty feelings you have aren't rational, their the result of taking a drug.
> 
> I applaud all of you who are trying to taper and get sober. I know Kratom is glorified as being the cure all for addictions but out of all the drugs I've tried, Kratom has been the hardest to quit. Probably because I've glorified it, and rationalized to myself, "oh well it's not as bad as alcohol, or I know I'm spending 80 bucks a week but at least it's not as expensive as coke, or at least it's not as addictive as heroin." All bullshit. I'm sure most of you know the routine. If I recognized it as a drug just like all the other's I would have never got addicted to it. Plus the short-term effects are great but the long term effects to Kratom can be brutal just like all drugs. (Hallucinations, physical dependence, mental dependence, plus there's not any study on how it effects the liver that I know of) My point isn't to bash on Kratom because I know if I used it responsibly and not regularly I would have been fine like most people. It was just the addict in me taking disguise and posing as something harmless. I think Kratom is great for quitting other substances but it has to be used responsibly. (Couple days a week, not everyday)



SO glad to hear back from you and to hear that you're doing much better man. You sound great and your advice about the taper-helpers is spot-on. If I were healthy enough to run for 45 minute straight I would. For anybody else, like me, just whatever exercise you can do is great. Just try to get to that edge where you're pushing yourself, but not so heard you throw-up or whatever. Thanks for coming back BeatIt! Looks like you're gonna beat it after all. Lookin back on those tough times up til now (I know it's not perfect yet), but it feels worth it, doesn't it.  

Keep on,
pnm


----------



## podsnomo

slayerhatesusall said:


> Even if you don't take kratom every day you can still get slight w/ds from it after awhile, took about 4 weeks of me using it every 3 days to get some slightly annoying w/ds that last around 5 days. Nothing serious though but still annoying.
> And how are you guys spending $80+ a week on kratom? You must be using extracts, when I was using it on a daily basis it never cost me more then $40 a month even when I was using a little less then half a pound of it per month once I had built a good tolerance up to it. I never used extracts except for free samples I got due to the insane price compared to the ground up leaf, they seem like a huge ripoff pricewise.



I agree completely about the ripoff of extracts. But for some it seems the powder quits working, and as tolerance builds faster in some people, and some people come to it with a higher tolerance for drugs in general, extracts become needed for some to keep their buzzes where they want them... Just IMO.


----------



## podsnomo

Cold Turkey said:


> Kratom sucks.  If you have never touched it, don't ever do it.  It's every bit as addictive as any other opiate based pain medication.  Sure the WD may not be as dramatic as opiates, but WD symptoms are definitely not to be taken lightly and they are sever enough to make you want to drain your bank account.  It took 2 years for me to quit.  It's been 5 days now, after going cold turkey.  I am tempted to go get some now, but I don't dare reignite the addiction.  All I have to say, is good luck to anyone who is struggling with this seemingly innocent but totally evil and addictive crap!  They should call it Crapom.  Because that's what it is pure crap.  It has no redeeming qualities.  It's sold as a legal high.  It's a designer drug, and it's illegal in Thailand for good reason.  Just don't ever do it.  Not even once.  You might wake up 2 years later, broke without enough money to eat or buy gas to get to work.



You're in a bad spot with this right now CT, and I can see how you're bitter about it. I was and am bitter about substances that fucked up my life, but Kratom has helped some who use it responsibly to get off of more harmful substances, and some are able to enjoy here and there no problem. Just like some people can drink beer, no problem, while people like me cannot, because I'm alcoholic, and 1 drink makes me crave 20 more...not like normal people. 

As for silent cowboy's insensitive and mean response to you. Don't listen to him. I'm about to tell him what's up.


----------



## podsnomo

Originally Posted by Cold Turkey  
Kratom sucks. If you have never touched it, don't ever do it. It's every bit as addictive as any other opiate based pain medication. Sure the WD may not be as dramatic as opiates, but WD symptoms are definitely not to be taken lightly and they are sever enough to make you want to drain your bank account. It took 2 years for me to quit. It's been 5 days now, after going cold turkey. I am tempted to go get some now, but I don't dare reignite the addiction. All I have to say, is good luck to anyone who is struggling with this seemingly innocent but totally evil and addictive crap! They should call it Crapom. Because that's what it is pure crap. It has no redeeming qualities. It's sold as a legal high. It's a designer drug, and it's illegal in Thailand for good reason. Just don't ever do it. Not even once. You might wake up 2 years later, broke without enough money to eat or buy gas to get to work.



silentcowboy said:


> Just because its fucked up your life doesnt mean its total garbage. people die and ruin their lives with alcohol and cigarettes(a "legal high"), doctor prescribed meds like SSRI's have much longer W/D and i found the WD from paxil atleast twice as hard as a taper and detox off of OC. Benzos are more addictive and has a chance of killing you if you drop too quickly. Idc what you say about kratom, it saved my life from an oxy addiction <removed abusive comment - Vaya> . i know its got down sides, which everything does. Idk what your deal is but id rather be dependent on kratom then any other substance (besides MJ). Your very uneducated about the plant. its not a designer drug, the powder is make from the actual leaves, and the reason its illegal in thailand is because it was effecting the opium trade. do your homework.
> Ive been taking it for 2 years and im at ~15g a day, im trying to taper down to save money, i realize how i am psychologically and physically dependent on it, but to compared to almost every other drug - its the least of the evils. kratom does not give me mood swings like opiates do, I can make a bag last for a long time if i have too, its forgiving in this way. <Content removed - Please refrain from discussing dosing methods and positive effects of drugs in this forum - it tends to make the drug-taking more appealing, especially for those seeking total abstinence - Vaya> I can get by with probably 6-8g a day and feel fine. Keep in mind, ive been doing this daily (at a lower dose in the beginning) for 2 years, and ofcourse my tolerance and intake has increased, and im tapering. sorry for the long post but this plant means a lot to me, just like MJ means a lot to other people.



Silent cowboy, why are you being an ass? That was his first post here. He's obviously in a tough spot. Do you really expect him to "do his homework" and know what the more experienced people here know. Just because you've been around a while and know more than someone else does and disagree with them does not give you the right to talk down to them, call them shitty names, and insult them.

Did you start your addiction at the age of three dude? 'cause that's right about the emotional maturity you're displaying in this thread. 

GOOD, so kratom saved your life from an oxy habit. I'm glad it did, but does that mean CT needs to "screw off". 

Whoever CT is, he/she comes in here and in response to their first post you treat them like total shit. You should be ashamed of yourself and you owe them an apology. I'll be checking the rules on here, and if I can find a reason to flag your asinine post to the mods I'll do just that. Unless of course, you proffer that apology you owe CT. Fucking pronto.

So yeah, it's cool that this plant means a lot to you, but don't be beatin' up on somebody who's prolly just ranting cause they're pissed that the kratom fucked up their life. You don't know what you're words could have done to CT. Maybe he doesn't give shit, and he shouldn't. But you mighta made him feel like shit. And on his FIRST post. Do YOUR homework, and stop treating people like an ass in this thread or I'll be all over you.

Peace, for goodness sake, peace,
pnm


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## silentcowboy

I know my attitude wasnt right, and i am sorry. I was offended by his post but should have taken into consideration it was his first.
Sorry CT for the shitty reply, im not like that normally, and neither are most people here on bluelight


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## podsnomo

Thanks man. I hope Cold Turkey reads this. 

On another note: I just reached 50 posts, but I still have a tiny message box and can't PM people.



silentcowboy said:


> I know my attitude wasnt right, and i am sorry. I was offended by his post but should have taken into consideration it was his first.
> Sorry CT for the shitty reply, im not like that normally, and neither are most people here on bluelight


----------



## silentcowboy

I think it might take overnight, Im pretty sure mine did


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## podsnomo

silentcowboy said:


> I think it might take overnight, Im pretty sure mine did



Just read that in the "about my account" section, but thanks for the info anyway. I'm still figuring all this out. I like it here. The people are cool, including you man. I read some of your other posts, and you're right, that post wasn't like you. And I forgot it was you who PMed me some help. Thanks again for that. I'd PM you back about something right now, but until this switches me to bluelighter, I'll have to wait another 180 minutes, at which point I hope to be snoozing.

peacefulness,
pnm


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## Kosmos7

Hey guys.  Another kratom-fighter here.  I'm currently on day 5 of cutting it 'cold turkey' and it's pretty awful but I think I'm starting to turn a corner with some of the withdrawal symptoms (the physical ones, at least).  It's a bit encouraging, but I know I'm only at the start of a long battle to true sobriety. 

Firstly, I'd just like to say that this is a great thread with some great words and advice.  Kudos to those of you who are on the right path and fighting that fight.  Especially pods; your positivity is great.

My (familiar) story: ordered an ounce of kratom last September after hearing all the nice things about it, and I've always been one to experiment with substances.  I've enjoyed the occasional roxy/oxy, but never had a habit with them, mostly because they are way too expensive, but also because I knew and heard of tons of people in my town who had serious problems with the stuff.  That and I just never really had a problem with addiction.  I smoked weed on and off but never found it to be difficult to quit.  Never been a big drinker.  This is where the kratom is sneaky and charming, though.  It's legal, relatively cheap (compared to pharm opiates), 'natural,' and generally has a pretty decent reputation.  And I of course could never get addicted to anything; I was beyond that, I thought.  So my guard was down.

The other element that led to my abuse of the stuff is that I suffer from depression and anxiety, which seems to be a common thread between all of us who have found ourselves in a bad relationship with this plant.  Alcohol never made me feel better like it does for some people; after a few months of regular weed-smoking I would just get really bored with it and stop without any serious issues, and it didn't help me otherwise.

Kratom though, seemed to give me strength.  It just made me feel _good_, with extra motivation and desire for socialization.  It kind of seemed to cure me of my depression/anxiety.  From early on though, I wasn't really so naive as to think this plant was the answer.  To be honest, I was pretty self-aware that I was abusing the plant from pretty early on (after I got a feel for it).  I hoped/expected it would give me the strength to improve my life in various ways.  Ultimately it might have improved my performance at work, but other than that it didn't really affect my life in a positive way, aside from just making me feel nice.  Artificial internal well-being.  Completely selfish, and lazy, in a way.  Instead of working hard to build a quality, healthy life, I skipped the hard stuff and just ate some plant powder to give me some instant satisfaction.  You all know the drill, there.

Anyway, after a month or two I was having a 10g or so dose every night after work, pretty much without missing a dose.  Only when I was late on ordering more did I miss one, and after making that mistake a couple times I learned to be well-stocked so as to not have to go through that rough 24-48 hours.  Maybe 5 months in I went to doing 2 smaller (maybe 5-7g) doses per day, one to start my day and one to end it.  At some point around then I got into the habit of taking a moderate dose before work, which became pretty necessary as working with the short-term withdrawals or comedown effects was pretty unpleasant, and working while on a fresh dose was much more pleasant and effective.  

It was like 3 months ago that I decided to start cutting down.  I began to only take enough to make me feel normal/functional, instead of an amount that would be more like a high.  Of course, I started to experience more and more unpleasant hours in my day, and I got to a point where I felt like I needed 3 small doses per day instead of two.  One to start my day (which is usually my work dose), one after work (so I could actually enjoy the rest of my day/night and be somewhat productive), and one slightly smaller one later in the night to get me a decent night's rest.  It was around this time that I started to really hate this substance; or moreso, hate that I felt enslaved to it.  Hated being miserable and useless without it.  Hated knowing that I wouldn't be able to be a good friend, a good son, etc. without eating this horrible-tasting plant three times a day.  Once again, if you are reading this you know the feeling.  I basically got to a point where I decided, fuck this.  No more.  If I'm eating this awful-tasting stuff three times a day just to feel normal, then what's the point?  Why spend the money to eat this nasty powdered plant that makes me feel 'decent' for an hour or two.

It's crazy how you get sucked into it.  I pretty much knew it was bad news for me from very early on, but didn't do anything about it until the negatives overwhelmed and upset me.  I used it to fill a void, and it ended up creating a bigger void.  Now I have stopped using it and all there is is one very large void.  

I have cheated a bit, though, since quitting.  I got some percocet from a friend and have used 7.5mg doses of it before work to allow me to function.  I know this will only slow the process, but I can't afford to take time off work, and being at work is a hell of a lot better than laying in bed at home, tossing and turning with complete physical and mental discomfort.  I find that being active helps.  I suppose it distracts from the negative aspects.  It's sort of like going to work sick; you kind of forget that you're sick because you are so busy.  I also happen to be a month into opening a new restaurant.  I'm a server, and there's no way I could handle running around, taking care of 6 different tables, timing out a dozen different meals, composing myself and being pleasant to customers and co-workers, etc. if I were going through the pure withdrawals.  

So my plan, sort of, is to use the percocet for work and when I have other engagements that require a certain level of focus/composure etc. for the first five days.  No kratom, but 15mg of percocet a day instead.   Today will be the last of the percocet, and I definitely won't be getting anymore because that shit is expensive and obviously I don't want to develop another bad habit.  Even with the small percocet doses, that only buys me about 2 hours of feeling pretty good, another 2 hours of feeling 'ok', and then the withdrawal symptoms quickly creep back in and it's back to the bottom.

I also happened to buy some etizolam a couple weeks ago, and so I've been taking those to help me sleep (though they are so short-acting that I sometimes have to get up and take more to get back to sleep).  Also been taking smaller doses here and there during the day to ease my mind a bit, though it's far from a complete cure of the psychological symptoms.  I also find that weed can either help or make things worse.  I'm careful about when I have a smoke, because sometimes it'll just make me really sleepy in a bad kind of way, so I have to lie down, and up with a couple hours of really bad sleep that I wake up feeling horrible from.  

I feel like there's more I should elaborate on as far as my recent recovery regiment, but I need a break from blabbing my boring story.  Just wanted to join the club, I guess.  Don't really have anyone IRL I can go to; I was glad to find this thread.


----------



## Kosmos7

haha I can't believe how large that wall of text is.  I would condense it but I don't really have the time, so... sorry, haha.

I actually have some questions and such, more about fighting the withdrawals, I'd like to bring up but I'll have to do that later.


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## podsnomo

Kosmos7 said:


> haha I can't believe how large that wall of text is.  I would condense it but I don't really have the time, so... sorry, haha.
> 
> I actually have some questions and such, more about fighting the withdrawals, I'd like to bring up but I'll have to do that later.



Welcome K7! Your post wasn't boring man. It was a good read, honest, and yes, familiar.  It's good for everyone here to know they're not alone. As was mentioned here a time or two, I think most people do OK with not getting sucked into Kratom, but man, some of us sure the hell do. 

I'm kinda confused why percocets? That kind of stuff, IME, has tougher withdrawals that come on faster, hit harder when they do, and then last longer. It sounds like you're bouncing around with your dosing plans, or should I say lack of plan? So, are you going with no more kratom, quitting the percocet, and using the etizolam for sleep? I'd never heard of etizolam, but read about it just now. It's pretty short acting. Do you have access to a doctor? Maybe you should try ambien or temazepam? Both are hypnotic benzos that last for a good night's sleep, preventing that need to take more in the middle of the night.

As far as fighting WDs and getting through the psychological phase after, much has been said in this thread regarding that. Read through a bit more if you get a chance and feel free to ask me any questions. Also feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything real personal. Better to keep most of it here though as it helps others. 

So, it sounds like your habit is less than a year old. That's a good thing, a young habit. The longer the habit the tougher the road. Your road will be tough anyway. They all are. My suggestion would be to do some more evaluation and personal reflection. See where your habit is now. If you can, try not to jump around between substances. If kratom was your DOC then perhaps you should taper down from that? I don't know you though, and damn sure don't know it all. You might do well to use the percs to get through. I'm not sure how you'll be able to taper those though.

The other option besides tapering is CT. Seems that's not an option for you, and I don't recommend it personally. For some though, it is the only way. I had a hard time controlling myself during my pod taper, and now that I'm stabilized on kratom, I'm having a hard time not getting recreational with it... Just trying to use it to taper down to no more opiates or opiate like substances. 

So, post your questions about fighting WDs and we'll see how we can help, RIGHT GUYS? 8(
Besides fighting WDs, you can do things to lessen them.
And this should be done with an eye on making the post-physical, that is, the psychological phase afterward less difficult. 
It gets talked about like it's 2 different things, the physical WDs and then the PAWS (the psychological phase).
But really one bleeds into the next, though they are different.
I'm rambling! 
My point is that one should start doing things during and towards the end of the physical withdrawal that will transition into the part after, making all of it much easier. 

Let us know how you are doing, and ask away. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

All best,
Podsnomo


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## podsnomo

Here's another story I'm pasting from another site. Name omitted.

Again, for those thinking Kratom is a joke... read this:

"Long story short, I've been on and off various opiates/opiods since about 2003. I got RX'd Tramadol for some chronic back pain I was having - and still have a bit of, but it's completely manageable with exercise - and got hooked. Managed to get off that and didn't use anything for about 3-4 years. Then I messed up my ribs and got a script for Percocet, and I was off and running. I was in school at the time, plus working almost full time, and I guess I was trying to medicate the insane amount of stress I was under. My days began at 6-8 AM and ended at 1-3 AM, lather, rinse, repeat. I gave up EVERYTHING for my education, because I knew it was the only thing going to better me in life, and I didn't want to end up where my family had ended up, because none of them ever went to school. But I lost 25 pounds because I never had time to eat, most of the week I was either a mess of rage or near tears because I never had even ONE free minute for myself, there was always more things to do than hours in the day but yet everything HAD to get done, and the percs gave me energy and mellowed me out.

Looking back it was a dumb thing to do, but you all know how it is. Nobody ever wakes up one morning and goes "Hey, I have a great idea! Let's become and addict! That'll solve ALL our problems!"

From that time to this, I'd kicked and relapsed a few times. I never had a huge habit by most people's standards, and I knew I could deal with the 3 days of WDs if I had a long weekend. So, whenever my tolerance started getting too high, or I didn't have the money, it wasn't the hardest thing on earth to kick. 

Then I got the job I have now, which pays pretty well, and I met a buddy there who had a buddy who had a script, plus he knew a few other people, so a virtually endless supply of pills came my way. I also discovered poppy seed tea, which, if you have a steady supply of "dirty" seeds, which I did, is a a very REAL opiate. 

My habit got pretty heavy. It never, ever, interfered with my being at work or how I did my job, I have too much a sense of responsibility for that I guess. But I got to a point where I was sick of pissing that much money away for basically nothing.

Somehow, I don't remember how, I discovered kratom. Cheap, 100% legal in the US (where I am), and it worked to keep the WDs away. It also helped with my back pain, when it flares up.

You can guess where this is going. Now I'm hooked on the fucking kratom. And for the life of me, I *cannot* kick this shit. I can handle WDs. But it's like they never stop coming off kratom. By the end of 3 days, I'm just as sick as I was on Day 1, by the end of 5 days, I'm just as sick as on Day 3, by the end of 10 days, I'm almost but not quite as sick as I was on Day 5. 

I don't know what the fuck to do. I've tapered - I actually have pretty good willpower and the ability to moderate when I really want to kick, but it doesn't seem to help at all. I was down to 1/2 teaspoon at 12 hour intervals at one point, then jumped from there, and I was STILL just as fucking sick as if I'd jumped from my "usual" dose. I don't HAVE 10+ days to be sick. I'm a manager where I work, and I need to function. If it was 3 to even 5 days, I could suck it up. But feeling weak, dizzy, sweaty, cold, nauseous, heartburn, the shits, not sleeping, body aches, and all the other fun stuff you get takes such a toll on my by that time, I can't take it anymore and go back to using. 

My buddy kicked, so I don't want to ask him to hook me up anymore. That's not cool. I know he makes his own choices just like I do, but I'm not sure I could have OPs, OCs, or percs on hand for someone else and not indulge. I'm not going to put him in that spot. I can get tramadol online just like anyone else can, so I was thinking maybe going onto that and then tapering off tramadol might help. Only thing is, tramadol seemed to be more addictive faster than any other pharm I've had. I know kratom alkaloids are related to yohimbine, would taking that maybe mitigate the WD from kratom? I need to get off this shit, I don't like not having any control over it what so ever, to the point where I can't kick even if I'm determined to do so. 

Getting into a treatment program isn't an option for me, because I don't think any suboxone docs or 'done clinics around here even know about kratom, and I do have legit pain that needs medical help now and then. If I go into treatment, I'll never get any kind of effective pain relief ever again. 

I'd really appreciate any help or suggestions anyone can offer, and please don't tell me to man up, that it's "just" kratom. I know my way around opiates, and this isn't "just" anything. This is serious, real shit I'm going through."

that's all he said.
peace,
pnm


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## Kosmos7

The percocet was a short-term thing.  I actually used the last of em tonight for work.  My idea was that I'd stop the kratom, take a light perc dose every now and then, as needed, to function, and hopefully get through some of the worst/early part of the kratom withdrawal in the mean time.  

So I'm off work until saturday morning, when I've got a double that'll last 10 hours or so.  And another one sunday.  Depending on how I feel, I might have to go back to the kratom to get through those days.  Like, a small dose to get me moving.  Obviously, I'd rather not have to do that, but at least I will have gone about a week without it.  

I'm just not really sure if I can get completely off it without taking at least a week off work to try and sort myself out.  I'm really hoping that I'll feel decent enough this weekend to not feel the need to turn back to it, but realistically it doesn't seem likely.  Either way, it will be difficult; the question is exactly how difficult.  I've worked a double without any kratom the whole day and it sucked but I got through it.  But it's kind of easier to do it when it's just one day and you know you'll have some tomorrow, or there's some waiting for you at home that got delivered while you were at work.  Knowing that there's a 'light' at the end of the tunnel helps.  

But now I've got two of these shifts in a row where I need to wake up much earlier than I'm used to, and it's just fuckin daunting.  And if I get through it, I'll be 'treated' to a day off monday where I'll probably do nothing but feel like shit all day.  

Another common kratom addiction story I've seen is where the person tries to kick it, finds that it just fucks their life up too bad for too long without the stuff, then they end up back on it and say "Well, I guess this is just how it will be for a while."  In a way, it makes a lot of sense.  Choosing between going through hell for an unknown duration of time, likely weeks if not months, or eating a gross plant a couple times a day to stay regular.  It's really a dilemna, because both options have major drawbacks.  Do you go through months of feeling awful to hopefully find peace at some point, or keep riding that wave.  On the kratom, you can at least control when you will feel good or not. 

I think there can be great difficulty depending on your life circumstances.  A lot of people start using kratom because they are depressed, feel worthless, unconfident, anxiety issues, etc.  They find the cure.  So after you have learned to depend on that cure, taking it away just leaves a very large hole.  They likely had poor coping mechanisms to begin with, and found life to be harsh and difficult before the kratom.  So AFTER the kratom, you're back to where you were, except you've got a whole new set of problems to deal with, and your ability to cope with the difficulties of life are even weaker than they were before.  Hopefully though, you learned some things and it won't be so much like reverting; but it seems like that's more or less how it is for a lot of people.  

Shit is complex.  Life is rarely ever easy, and I think that's one of the lessons that a drug addiction can teach you.  That you can't rely on a substance to articficially make you feel good; or at least, a lot of us can't.  At the same time, it is merely adjusting some chemicals in your brain that might be the difference in giving you the energy/strength to do what you want/need to do in life.  If you think about all the babies born from a night of alcohol, or all the people who rely on caffeine, it suggests that there's nothing inherently wrong with consuming a chemistry-adjusting substance every day.  So of course, that means it's all just different from individual to individual.

I'm not sure who would like having to eat a foul-tasting plant multiple times a day, especially knowing what will happen to you when you STOP taking it.  It's very conflicting, because that seems to strongly tell you both to stop using it as soon as possible, and to also never stop using it.  Very confusing.  It's cruel, really.


----------



## Kosmos7

I guess that's the thing that makes kratom so uniquely difficult to stop using versus stuff like heroin or whatever.  People more often use kratom to function throughout their day; they don't use it to get fucked up.  So it's incredibly difficult to quit in its own way.  Not to say that quitting heroin is easier than quitting kratom, obviously.  Just different.

That said, I'm seriously considering just throwing the in towel for now, and waiting for a better time to get off this stuff.  Dealing with the opening of a new restaurant has been really stressful and I can't afford to take time off.  I'll save up and take a week or two off when it reaches the slowest point (which will be in a month or so), and meanwhile I'll actually do a proper taper instead of just eyeballing it in a spoon, sometimes taking more than necessary out of carelessness, which surely has not helped.  And I'll get some loperamide (never got around to getting any this time), sedatives/weed for the sleep, and try to get some proper exercise in as well.  Right now I have a hard enough time exercising with the kratom, let alone without it, because of how busy I am.

But the idea of 'wasting' these 5 days and giving back in isn't sitting well either.  I feel the need to suffer through this, like I've deserved it, like it's all coming back to me.  If only I had a job that was less social-intensive, focus-requiring, etc. this might be more feasible.  But going into work with a really poor mental/physical state could lead to bigger problems like serious issues with co-workers or customers.  I get in stressful situations all the time where I feel on the verge to lose it and do something that would get me in trouble, but I keep it in check.  As of now I'm in good standing all around, well-liked and respected, but it's taken a lot out of me just to get to and maintain that point.  Feels like it takes everything.

Tell me if I'm just using dangerous rationalizations, but I feel like I might have rushed into this out of impulsive frustration and a better time and a better plan might be the right way to go.  Obviously it all depends on how I feel.  I haven't worked a shift without either the kratom or, more recently, the perc, in a while.  If it's just one day without it's pretty bad but manageable, just because one day of feeling crappy is nothing compared to weeks or months of feeling even crappier.


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## podsnomo

I feel you Kosmos. I've got be on my toes too for my job. And right now I'm sitting here with the chills, waiting for the loperamide to knock them down a bit so I can take my morning 3g of kratom. 

Yes, you are rationalizing, but I think you might also be right. However, I wouldn't call it dangerous rationalizing, because luckily we're talking about kratom. If it were H I'd be telling you to shut up and get into detox. With H it's life and death. With kratom it's lifemanageable and lifeholyfuckingshitthissucks(temporarily). 

So, it's good you know you're rationalizing, but you still have your head screwed on straight about getting off the stuff somehow. I think this trial run at quitting taught you a lot. It was similar for me with poppy pods. I had to wait for the right time. My gf went out of town for a long weekend and I attempted a cold turkey quit. Big mistake. I made it until she got back, but then on day 5, it was still getting worse, so I caved, made some tea out of the stems I had, and ordered more pods. I then waited for my next opportunity. She was heading out of town again for a conference a couple months later. So I got enough to start a taper and worked my way down from very high doses to tiny ones, and then jumped from there and switched to kratom, the lesser of two evils... or maybe just the different of two evils. For me, it's a lesser evil anyway. 

I think you've got it right. You need to be prepared and you need to have some wiggle room job-wise and life-wise. For now, try to use at a base line. Measure your doses. Keep track of them. Try not to use for a high if you can, just to get by. This will make your upcoming taper easier. Buy a "jewelry scale". (Who the fuck weighs jewelry on $20 scale?) Anyway, they work. And don't try to put the powder on the scale. Most have a "tare" function that will zero out the weight of a container. Use an empty pill bottle. Put it on, hit tare, add your kratom dose, and see how much you're taking. Then try to keep that consistent. The scale will come in handy in your taper as you can drop as little as a tenth of gram each time you drop, though you might consider lots of different dose-dropping plans. We can discuss that more later. Just order a scale for now.

Then, when you are ready to do a proper taper, get your loperamide on hand, some good supplements, healthy food. Get some high-calorie ensure or something for days when the last thing you wanna do is eat. You can knock those back and you get calories and lots of vitamins. Nutrition without having to eat basically. These and other steps will give you a physical advantage for the quit. They will also give you a psychological advantage of having an arsenal of stuff to combat symptoms while at the same time helping your body and brain heal and start to return to normal, pre-addiction levels. This is a long road, as I am learning and many have told me about. But each day gets better, and the biggest thing you'll have spurring you on, in addition to our support here, is your FREEDOM from needing to take something every single friggin day!

 You can and will get there Kosmos. You still sound determined to quit, eventually. That's a good thing. Be kind to yourself. Don't think of this as a set-back or find reasons here to tell yourself you can't quit. You can. Think of this as some lessons learned, bide your time, stay functional, and start mentally preparing for the awesome thing you're about to do. When the time comes to go through the taper and quit, which is hard but not as hard as CT, get a piece of paper and write on it in large letters: "You are a wonderful person and you're doing something incredible for yourself. You are worth it. Keep calm, keep on, keep faith." Something like that. And put it somewhere where you will see it often. 

You got this, and I got your back. Take it easy Kosmos. And again, be kind to yourself about all this.

peace,
pnm


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## Beat It

slayerhatesusall said:


> Even if you don't take kratom every day you can still get slight w/ds from it after awhile, took about 4 weeks of me using it every 3 days to get some slightly annoying w/ds that last around 5 days. Nothing serious though but still annoying.
> And how are you guys spending $80+ a week on kratom? You must be using extracts, when I was using it on a daily basis it never cost me more then $40 a month even when I was using a little less then half a pound of it per month once I had built a good tolerance up to it. I never used extracts except for free samples I got due to the insane price compared to the ground up leaf, they seem like a huge ripoff pricewise.



Well you must have had a cheaper vender than I. The vender I went through charge about 30-35 per QP but it was the best quality out of all the vendors I tried. I would go through about a HP per week and I paid for express shipping an extra 15 bucks. Ended up being around 86 while I was at this level. After a while I could make the HP last two weeks but yeah.


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## podsnomo

Hey guys, here's a success story from another thread. It happens, and it can happen for all of us. 

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/628984-Not-Only-Am-I-Not-Dead-I-m-CLEAN


----------



## Beat It

Kosmos7 said:


> I guess that's the thing that makes kratom so uniquely difficult to stop using versus stuff like heroin or whatever.  People more often use kratom to function throughout their day; they don't use it to get fucked up.  So it's incredibly difficult to quit in its own way.  Not to say that quitting heroin is easier than quitting kratom, obviously.  Just different.
> 
> That said, I'm seriously considering just throwing the in towel for now, and waiting for a better time to get off this stuff.  Dealing with the opening of a new restaurant has been really stressful and I can't afford to take time off.  I'll save up and take a week or two off when it reaches the slowest point (which will be in a month or so), and meanwhile I'll actually do a proper taper instead of just eyeballing it in a spoon, sometimes taking more than necessary out of carelessness, which surely has not helped.  And I'll get some loperamide (never got around to getting any this time), sedatives/weed for the sleep, and try to get some proper exercise in as well.  Right now I have a hard enough time exercising with the kratom, let alone without it, because of how busy I am.
> 
> But the idea of 'wasting' these 5 days and giving back in isn't sitting well either.  I feel the need to suffer through this, like I've deserved it, like it's all coming back to me.  If only I had a job that was less social-intensive, focus-requiring, etc. this might be more feasible.  But going into work with a really poor mental/physical state could lead to bigger problems like serious issues with co-workers or customers.  I get in stressful situations all the time where I feel on the verge to lose it and do something that would get me in trouble, but I keep it in check.  As of now I'm in good standing all around, well-liked and respected, but it's taken a lot out of me just to get to and maintain that point.  Feels like it takes everything.
> 
> Tell me if I'm just using dangerous rationalizations, but I feel like I might have rushed into this out of impulsive frustration and a better time and a better plan might be the right way to go.  Obviously it all depends on how I feel.  I haven't worked a shift without either the kratom or, more recently, the perc, in a while.  If it's just one day without it's pretty bad but manageable, just because one day of feeling crappy is nothing compared to weeks or months of feeling even crappier.



I think you bring up a very rational point here and I don't think your just using dangerous rationalizations. I know for me personally the w/d took at least two-full weeks. During this time, if I was at work, I wouldn't have done too hot and I'm sure that I might have lost my job anyways. I think the reason that I was able to get through it is because I could fall back on my family for help. Which is kinda the fucked up thing, addicts always fall back on their family when they try to quit. Shouldn't be their responsibility but I am very grateful my family was their for me. I was about to relapse on day 5 but thankfully my dad intercepted the order and said he'd hold onto it until I could make the right decision. I'm very glad he did this for me, giving me 1 more day, I decided to sell what I had. That was really the hump for me, day 5. Day 6 my physical w/d stopped so I moved on to taking ambien at night to help with anxiety. Anyways... lol my point is that I needed help to get through the hard part. If you have the option,* I would even consider rehab treatment if it's covered my your health insurance.* The only reason I got through day 5 was because my family intervened on me. Yeah I was pissed off at the time, but I'm thankful they were there.

Your right, having some free time is very important, but most people give themselves too little. If you can take the time off of work than I would recommend at least taking two weeks off. If your in rehab, most likely your company should not be able to fire you because addiction is technically a disability- *I think lol*
I would check it out but I think everyone should consider rehab as an option, even for something as "silly" at Kratom.


----------



## podsnomo

^Good advice Beat It, but Kosmos works as a server...waits tables. I did this for years. Unless Kosmos is serving at some 5 star, I doubt time off for rehab is an option. 

For the health of the nation, a 2-4 week rehab should be covered for anybody who wants it. But that's just not the way it is... Sorry, don't want to turn this thread into a policy/morality debate.

It's just that I'm pretty sure it's not an option for him/her. Kosmos, you male or female? Like it matters. 

So, like me, K probably needs to get this done at home. If only we all had the luxury of taking a break from our lives to overcome our addictions!


----------



## Beat It

Yeah no worries!  I don't have health insurance, but a lot of health insurance agencies covers rehab, at least to my knowledge. My main point is I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own.


----------



## Beat It

^Not that I'm totally recovered either. Still got that monkey on my back. Just past the hard part.


----------



## podsnomo

Beat It said:


> Yeah no worries!  I don't have health insurance, but a lot of health insurance agencies covers rehab, at least to my knowledge. My main point is I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own.





Beat It said:


> Yeah no worries!  I don't have health insurance, but a lot of health insurance agencies covers rehab, at least to my knowledge. My main point is I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own.



Yeah, rehab is great, if you can afford the time and $$. You said you couldn't have done it on your own. Bingo. For addicts: alone it is too much for us. Some get support here, some in 12 step groups, some from family and friends. For sure, having support peeps in place is one of the keys. Preferably multiple modes of support. But if all somebody has is BL, then thank jeebus for that, at least. 

I'm so glad to hear that you're past the hardest part Beat It. As the OP, it's wonderful that you got closer to where you wanted to be when you started this thread. That monkey might hang around for a while. You might feel no cravings, no anxiety and all that for a while, and then get whammied with cravings or some mood problems or whatever down the road. No problem. You can handle that. The good news is that on average it will only get better for you from here...so long as you stay clean. 

I'll be catching up with you soon. My pod habit was BAD, so my kratom use now got into a bit of more flux than I would have liked. I actually took 3g four times today. Loooong day, but I don't wanna be upping my doses. My damn mail-order kratom didn't come in on time, so I had to get some more mini-mart shit. When my mail order gets here I'm going to weigh it out, plan it out, and make a taper plan just like I did with the pods. I've been through some tough shit on those damn pods, so I'm pretty confident I can handle the road to being kratomnomo too. 

What I did with the pods was plan out all my doses, when my drops would be, how much, and so on. A couple times I had to adjust the plan and stay on a lower dose longer before the next drop, esp after I got ahead of myself once and did too big of a drop. But looking back, that larger drop worked out well. I just gotta keep the path and soon will be free. 

Hang in there, take it easy, and let us know how it continues to go for you now that you're FREE. (free at least from taking shit everyday, even if that monkey is loath to go, it will).

All my best, major props, mad respect,
and as always,
peace,
pnm


----------



## silentcowboy

podsnomo, your a sharp guy and give great advice. I second everything you say and especially about the supplements, Im tapering (or trying) and Ive noticed a huge difference in my energy level. Can anyone give me some advice or tips on how to start my taper? and maybe a game plan? the problem is i have a good stash and am tapering to lower the cost and bring back some of the earlier effects. im around 15-18g a day, use it for work and sleep. I am prescribed 10mg valium daily for anxiety and can probably get a script of ambien. I have been taking less but its really hard when your really bored and sitting at home. I do a lot skateboarding, atleast 2 hours a day, but the RLS makes it really hard to get motivated and warmed-up. Any advice would be appreciated, I have read the whole thread and its a great discussion. 
I am considering asking someone to hold onto it for me but i think i can do this on my own, or atleast im going to try.


----------



## Kosmos7

Like you said, pods, this was a learning experience.  What I learned was that I was blaming the kratom for personal problems in my life that I actually have total control over.  

I believe what drove me to say 'it stops here' in regards to the kratom usage, was that I kinda blew off my mom's birthday a couple weeks ago.  Granted, I worked all day and didn't get to see her, but I didn't even end up getting her a card or anything.  When I was finally able to see her I got her something and there wasn't really a real external issue but it upset me internally, for sure, that I didn't get to do anything more than tell her happy birthday.  It was especially bothersome because she's going through some hard times herself (whole other story) and I know it would have made her feel good if I went out of my way for her in some way.  

I was intending to do something for her like take her out for lunch or something but the pendulum swing of the kratom effects didn't coincide with the free time I could have made for her.  I blamed myself, like I often do, but I ultimately told myself that my use of the kratom was the real cause of it all.  In a way it's true.  But at the same time I could have planned out my time better, or simply have manned up and did something outgoing without an immediate boost from the kratom.  It was still completely in my control, in the end.

And this ties into the bigger picture of my life where I just haven't been taking care of myself very well.  Not eating enough (I'm way too skinny, 5'10 122 lbs, and I feel like most people think I do heroin or something), not exercising, almost entirely cutting off my social life (though i get lots of socialization in at work and consider many of my co-workers to be friends).  Just generally treating myself poorly.  The kratom, once again, could be said to have played a part in this, as it has the power to make you feel good in spite of not eating well, getting exercise, having a social life, etc.  I can treat myself really bad but still feel pretty good for a decent portion of the day (though it's not uncommon at all for me to feel depressed even while on the top end of a kratom dose).

I've learned, I think, that the kratom played a part in some problems I've been having, but ultimately it isn't the cause of it all.  And to put so much blame on it is to rid of myself of self-responsibility, and THAT is dangerous.  

What I want to do is find a decent routine to keep me in a decent state with the kratom, and use the stuff to be more productive.  Honestly, as motivating as it can be, I often times just use the peace of mind it brings me to enjoy something leisurely and unproductive (various internet wastes of time, etc.).  I didn't care.  A lot of this poor self-treatment was a result of fairly recent girl problems that kind of set me on a bad path.  Part of me kinda just gave up on life.  I enjoyed my job more than anything, so I just worked all the time and used the rest of my day to drift off into leisure.  Ironically, it didn't really bring me any peace.  Excessive leisure, for me at least, just makes me feel worse and worse.  

I could go on and on about the specifics of my depression (been pretty depressed for about 7 or so years now).  I've felt for a while that I'm just not learning; I'm not growing or experiencing.  Sometimes, it's really fucked up, but sometimes I wish that something tragic would happen in my life, like losing a loved one or something.  Or a crazy near-death experience.  Or just something to wake me up and realize that life is happening but I am not.  So I think here is a lesson; without the 'crutch' of the kratom I've been shown just how hollowed out my life has become.  

This is all really negative-sounding.  I'd like to cut that stuff out more in general, starting right now.  

I actually made a list earlier tonight of things that really make me happy.  Completely honestly, I am usually in such a haze of anxiety and depression that I can't even remember the way happiness feels, or how to obtain it, or what it is, even.  It's like a completely foreign thing to me.  But there are actually many things that make me happy, I realized, and I generally don't live with those things in mind at all.  Just an easy but very true example: physical activity.  Every time I go outside and play some basketball at the park, go rock-climbing, or just ride a bike, I really enjoy it and feel pretty good afterward.  But I almost never do these things.  That's a real common thing though; most people would like to be more physically active but can't find the energy/motivation to do so.  But that I actually really enjoy physical activity and have the time to do it, but don't...  It's confusing.  Why would I not do something that I really enjoy and would be really good for me?  This is kind of getting into another area entirely, but basically I feel like at some point in a depression or whatever you stop understanding or caring about the value of taking care of yourself.  And this experience has woken me up a bit.  

So I need to improve the quality of my life.  There's a ton of ways I can do that, and so I'm working at it.  One idea I've got is to practice preparing and cooking quality, balanced meals, and cook for my mom.  She doesn't eat well either, but I know her tastes, and if I were to make her meals myself I know she would enjoy and appreciate that.  And it would give me a hobby and skill to work on.  I also have been making music for a long time, which I've been steadily productive with for a while but ultimately not really doing anything with it, and I want to take my craft more seriously and really develop my sound (I make weird, abstract electronic music, mostly).  And a couple friends of mine started a new band recently and they want me to be a part of it; they're already playing shows around town and really working at it, but I've been too detached and weighed down by self-loathing to engage myself with what they're doing.

Honestly I just didn't care for a while.  I've known all along that if I could just take care of myself better, take life more seriously (my job is the only thing I really take seriously and give most of what I got toward), things would have to improve...  But internal issues made getting myself out of the hole seem literally unimaginable.  

Another thing I've thought about for a while in my recent state of depression is how I've felt like I am constantly on the verge of a serious breakdown.  And that I _need_ it.  Like I said earlier, I wanted a wake up call, something, even if it's tragedy.  Maybe also, though, things aren't as bad as I've been constantly telling myself for so long now.  And maybe this experience will be my breakdown, my tragedy, to ignite the spark of life within me.


----------



## Kosmos7

BTW I've wanted to get a decent scale for a while...  Does this one look good enough?  http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Gram-Jewelry-Scale/dp/B000O37TDO


----------



## podsnomo

silentcowboy said:


> podsnomo, your a sharp guy and give great advice. I second everything you say and especially about the supplements, Im tapering (or trying) and Ive noticed a huge difference in my energy level. Can anyone give me some advice or tips on how to start my taper? and maybe a game plan? the problem is i have a good stash and am tapering to lower the cost and bring back some of the earlier effects. im around 15-18g a day, use it for work and sleep. I am prescribed 10mg valium daily for anxiety and can probably get a script of ambien. I have been taking less but its really hard when your really bored and sitting at home. I do a lot skateboarding, atleast 2 hours a day, but the RLS makes it really hard to get motivated and warmed-up. Any advice would be appreciated, I have read the whole thread and its a great discussion.
> I am considering asking someone to hold onto it for me but i think i can do this on my own, or atleast im going to try.



Thanks for your kind words silentcb. So, for starting a taper... I'll give you a rough suggestion and you can modify it to suit your needs. You say you're at 15-18g/day. If that dose is good enough for you, that is, keeps you OK, then you should just start the taper there. For opiates, people often drop by a third every three days. So days 1-3, keep your 18g and mentally prepare for the taper. Days 4-6, 12g. Days 7-9 8g. Days 10-12 (now thirds don't work) 6g. Then once you got that low, drop 1g every three days, and as you get lower, drop .5g every three days. 

The thing with a taper is that you should set up a plan you think will work, then be prepared to adjust it. If you find your drops in dosages are hitting you too hard, you might drop less, or you might stay on a lowered dose longer until you feel better on that dose before you drop again. You gotta know this is not an easy road, it's just that it's WAY easier, IF you have the willpower to stay with it, than quitting CT.

Many can taper, many cannot. If you find you cannot, and you still want to quit. Wait. I'm sleepy. You'd just like to lower your tolerance?
If that's the case then what I have read but not tried is that doing half your normal dose for one tougher-than-usual week will drop your tolerance. Not sure for how long, or how well this works. 

For the RLS, bananas and weightlifting. If you can eat a nanner or 3 a day, maybe even take a potassium supplement too, that will help. For many, lifting weights, and I mean like wearing yourself out (carefully! no injuries!) can leave your legs with no more restlessness in them. There are other threads I think just about RLS. People who've never had an addiction get it sometimes, and varying things work for varying people. 

Another way to taper, if you want to quit, is to plan the whole taper. Weigh out all the doses and put them in those tiny drug-dealer bags. Mark them with dates. Have someone (sounds like you have someone who might help) dole out what you've planned for yourself. And then, just take your lumps as they come. Do what you can to deal with the WDs, mild as they might be on a taper. And use the time on that tough road to get ready for living life on life's terms, without the substance. 

Gotta respond to Kosmos now and get ready for work. Let me know if I can be of more help.

peace,
pnm


----------



## podsnomo

Kosmos7 said:


> Like you said, pods, this was a learning experience.  What I learned was that I was blaming the kratom for personal problems in my life that I actually have total control over.
> 
> I believe what drove me to say 'it stops here' in regards to the kratom usage, was that I kinda blew off my mom's birthday a couple weeks ago.  Granted, I worked all day and didn't get to see her, but I didn't even end up getting her a card or anything.  When I was finally able to see her I got her something and there wasn't really a real external issue but it upset me internally, for sure, that I didn't get to do anything more than tell her happy birthday.  It was especially bothersome because she's going through some hard times herself (whole other story) and I know it would have made her feel good if I went out of my way for her in some way.
> 
> I was intending to do something for her like take her out for lunch or something but the pendulum swing of the kratom effects didn't coincide with the free time I could have made for her.  I blamed myself, like I often do, but I ultimately told myself that my use of the kratom was the real cause of it all.  In a way it's true.  But at the same time I could have planned out my time better, or simply have manned up and did something outgoing without an immediate boost from the kratom.  It was still completely in my control, in the end.
> 
> SNIP for space.
> 
> Another thing I've thought about for a while in my recent state of depression is how I've felt like I am constantly on the verge of a serious breakdown.  And that I _need_ it.  Like I said earlier, I wanted a wake up call, something, even if it's tragedy.  Maybe also, though, things aren't as bad as I've been constantly telling myself for so long now.  And maybe this experience will be my breakdown, my tragedy, to ignite the spark of life within me.



Wow dude. I stand in respect and applaud your courageous honesty here. Getting honest with yourself is key to a recovery. I'll try to address what I have thoughts on, but you said a lot, so I hope my response will do your post justice. Truly though, this honesty and self-reflection has the ring of someone who can do this. Bravo!

OK, so the big picture first. Coming out of an addiction is HARD. It sucks. But what everyone, and I mean EVERYONE who has gone through it and come out on the other side will tell you is that it is a whole new world out there without the addiction. Once the physical WDs pass, then the psycholgical phases lessens over time, and eventually, like 4-6 months, you're back to pre addiction normality, mostly. You'll always be an addict. But you don't have to always be a user. That 4-6 months sounds awful, I know, but during that time it gets better from day to day, week to week, until one day you'll realize you're sleeping well, doing things, not depressed, and that you haven't thought about using in weeks. That seems like a long time, but you're buying back the rest of your life. Small price to pay, no?

First things first. Before you even think about the kratom taper and eventual quit: START TAKING CARE OF YOU! You said it all. I don't need to give you advice on what to do, you just need to do things you enjoy as much as you can. But don't be too hard on yourself. Start out with something very manageable and set some specific goals. For example, you might try to do at least one thing a day that's active and enjoyable. Plan them out. Start a journal. You might decide to go for a bike ride 3 times a week, even if it's just for 10 or 15 minutes. You ask why you wouldn't do something you enjoy that's good for you. Fucking paradoxical aint it? I know exactly how you feel. Sometimes it's a matter of sheer will. Or, what I'd do is just force myself to start the activity. Just think about the start of the bike ride. Just think about getting on the bike. Then, one foot in front of other foot. Don't think too far ahead. Just get your ass to the bike. Baby steps. Now put your ass ON the bike...etc. You see.

And you gotta nourish yourself. Sounds to me like you're putting pretty much everything ahead of your own well being. I know how that goes. That's how I got a bachelor's, master's and a doctorate! Bad way to do it, but that's how it happened. You gotta not just take care of yourself, but care for yourself. You are important, valuable, worthwhile, loveable and you are loved. You would do well to take steps to get closer to loving yourself half as much as some of those in your life love you. We're talking big-picture shit here man. Years on down the road which will matter more, how well you do your job over the next several months, or how well you care for your own wonderful, valuable life? Perspective. 

You said you've been depressed for 7 years? So, it could be the not taking care of yourself, or you may be one of those people who's just depressed. Have you talked with your doctor about an anit-depressant? Welbutrin worked wonders for me. Just a thought. You might just find that your depression subsides when you start loving yourself and putting yourself as a higher priority. You will find out. This honesty you're showing and your commendable self-reflection will serve you well here.

Congrats on making that list. You say you don't even remember happiness or how it feels. I bet contentedness sounds like a foreign language. Here's the rub. It comes back, but you have to buy it with work, with getting through the tough road. The road is there for you. It leads to a whole new world where happiness, contentedness and peace await you. But it is not near, not from this side. When you get there, it seems it didn't last that long, and MORE than worth the struggle. The road is there. Take the first steps. Along the way, be KIND to yourself. Love you. And always remember, you are worth it. And yes, you sure as hell can do this!

The idea about cooking is excellent. Start with that. It's doable. If it feels like to much effort, just break it down. First, just get in the car. Then just get to the store, etc., until you're home with food. Don't think about everything. Just get out the first couple of things and start cooking. These kinds of continued little steps are part of the road back to the you that you want. 

Now, as far as the breakdown, tragedy. I hope you don't need that. All you might need, or just really benefit from, is a good hard cry. Go somewhere where you can do this comfortably if you can, or when no one else is home. If you believe in a God, go with that, if you don't try to imagine the collective goodness of humanity. All the people out there doing good. Bring all those people into a big cluster in your mind. Imagine all that goodwill and love, all that selfless service going on everyday, tirelessly. We see all the bad on the news. The good isn't covered. It's there though. Try to bring all that into a pool of loving power in your mind, or in a big, bright cloud above and around you. Now cry out to it. Beg for this to be taken from you. Relinquish yourself. Submit to a power greater than yourself. And, if you can, just fucking cry. Hard. For as long as you can. Especially if, as I suspect, you've not cried for a long time. 

This is the part of AA that works for everybody, even if you can't or won't buy into the whole 12 step thing. My higher power, simply, is love. All the good people, doing good, out of love, is the manifestation of my higher power. I don't believe in a god, but I've seen enough good people do amazing things for their fellow humans that I sure as shit believe in love. Big time.

So maybe it's not tragedy that needs to kick you in the balls, but a bolt of inspiration and love from within. If my suggestion works, great. If not, you might find something else to bring that out. It needs to come out. Give voice to your inner pain. When that pain can cry, scream, whatever, it's like letting air out a balloon.

You'll then find in recovery that you'll be needing to deal with emotions that you've been tamping down with the kratom for so long. It'll be OK man. It's painful and rewarding at the same time. And remember, with this tough road you are buying back the rest of your life. We should all feel lucky the price is so low, though we all know that at times it seems impossible. It IS possible though. 

Last thing advice-wise: you said you need to take life more seriously. IMHO that's the opposite of what you need. Just take more honestly and with more reflection and humility, just like you've already started to do in your post. Let the fucking idiots on the TV news worry about being serious. Fuck that. You need more fun in your life, and you need you as a higher priority. Don't be serious about, be passionate about it. It's about love, play, life, doing, and being better, kinder to yourself. You are worth it.

Bravo a second time on your honesty. You've made a great start. Be proud of yourself. Be kind to yourself. 

If no one has told you that they love you today,
well, I do.

Gotta get to work now. 

peace,
pods no more


----------



## podsnomo

Kosmos7 said:


> BTW I've wanted to get a decent scale for a while...  Does this one look good enough?  http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-Gram-Jewelry-Scale/dp/B000O37TDO



Perfect. I wouldn't trust it to weigh jewelry, but it will suit your purposes to a T. Once you get it, get a handle on how much you're taking, when, and maybe why. A good idea is to start a journal. Write down how much you take, the time(s), and a little note or two on how you're feeling. Like, are you in WDs, or just kinda low feeling. Eventually you'll use that info to reflect on why you use, and that will help you to start taking only when you really need to. This will give you a good idea of where to start that proper taper. It'll be up to you whether you want to start your taper more comfy and go slow, or if you want to be more aggressive. Thing is, you have to figure it out for yourself using your own judgement, my humble advice, and the experiences of others as you can find on other forums. Look around.

Good for you in all departments!

all my best,
pnm


----------



## podsnomo

OK guys, I got addicted to this thread kinda. Will some of you update me on how you're doing?

As for me, I got some kratom from an online vendor, finally a larger amount, not these tiny bags from the mini marts for ridiculous prices. Now is my dilemma. I also have the option of buying another order from a site that had a long process for paying through a third party payer site sort of like paypal, but not. 

Anyhow, Aside from the 12g I have set aside for today, I have about 80g. I'm contemplating whether this is enough to do a taper and get out while the gettin's good. If indeed the gettin' is good. Or whether I should buy the second order, which is really reasonably priced, and do a longer taper.

Part of my addict mind wants to keep taking it, but I know it's not sustainable in the long run.... but for now... like beat it said in the OP: super powers. 

I'm also starting a step study group in AA. The guys know I quit the pods and quit drinking, but I've not told anyone about the kratom, partially because I don't want to have to explain it, and partially because I want to work the steps without them worrying too much over a kratom habit/addiction.

Having switched to kratom after tapering a larger pod habit over a looong month, I'm not sure how my WDs might be if I cold turkeyed the kratom or did an aggressive taper. I don't wanna CT it, but I'm thinking I might be able to forego the second purchase and taper off using the kratom I have.

I got recreational with the kratom that came for a couple of days. It was nice to see such a decent amount of it after buying these tiny pricey bags at mini marts. So, I did not follow much of the advice I've given here. But I'm gonna try to be as good as my words so far.

I think for today I'll try to use just 2 of the 3 4g doses I have measured out. If I do that just fine, I can probably taper from there, and then not cave to the urge to make the second, slightly larger purchase, and risk the kratom getting its hooks into  me further. 

OK, now it's yall's turn to give ME some advice!

love and peace to you all,
pnm


----------



## slayerhatesusall

podsnomo said:


> OK guys, I got addicted to this thread kinda. Will some of you update me on how you're doing?
> 
> As for me, I got some kratom from an online vendor, finally a larger amount, not these tiny bags from the mini marts for ridiculous prices. Now is my dilemma. I also have the option of buying another order from a site that had a long process for paying through a third party payer site sort of like paypal, but not.
> 
> Anyhow, Aside from the 12g I have set aside for today, I have about 80g. I'm contemplating whether this is enough to do a taper and get out while the gettin's good. If indeed the gettin' is good. Or whether I should buy the second order, which is really reasonably priced, and do a longer taper.
> 
> Part of my addict mind wants to keep taking it, but I know it's not sustainable in the long run.... but for now... like beat it said in the OP: super powers.
> 
> I'm also starting a step study group in AA. The guys know I quit the pods and quit drinking, but I've not told anyone about the kratom, partially because I don't want to have to explain it, and partially because I want to work the steps without them worrying too much over a kratom habit/addiction.
> 
> Having switched to kratom after tapering a larger pod habit over a looong month, I'm not sure how my WDs might be if I cold turkeyed the kratom or did an aggressive taper. I don't wanna CT it, but I'm thinking I might be able to forego the second purchase and taper off using the kratom I have.
> 
> I got recreational with the kratom that came for a couple of days. It was nice to see such a decent amount of it after buying these tiny pricey bags at mini marts. So, I did not follow much of the advice I've given here. But I'm gonna try to be as good as my words so far.
> 
> I think for today I'll try to use just 2 of the 3 4g doses I have measured out. If I do that just fine, I can probably taper from there, and then not cave to the urge to make the second, slightly larger purchase, and risk the kratom getting its hooks into  me further.
> 
> OK, now it's yall's turn to give ME some advice!
> 
> love and peace to you all,
> pnm



I would go ahead and get the other purchase, 80g does not seem like enough to taper off it if your taking 8g a day that would be a very very quick taper of 10 days or so, it took me around 1 month to fully taper off kratom and I think I should have tapered for another week before kicking it actually, I think I tapered a little too quickly towards the end. If you do a 10 day taper you will surely have pretty bad withdrawals still, not as bad if you didn't taper at all but not that much better.


----------



## aallaann

podsnomo said:


> OK guys, I got addicted to this thread kinda. Will some of you update me on how you're doing?
> 
> As for me, I got some kratom from an online vendor, finally a larger amount, not these tiny bags from the mini marts for ridiculous prices. Now is my dilemma. I also have the option of buying another order from a site that had a long process for paying through a third party payer site sort of like paypal, but not.
> 
> Anyhow, Aside from the 12g I have set aside for today, I have about 80g. I'm contemplating whether this is enough to do a taper and get out while the gettin's good. If indeed the gettin' is good. Or whether I should buy the second order, which is really reasonably priced, and do a longer taper.
> 
> Part of my addict mind wants to keep taking it, but I know it's not sustainable in the long run.... but for now... like beat it said in the OP: super powers.
> 
> I'm also starting a step study group in AA. The guys know I quit the pods and quit drinking, but I've not told anyone about the kratom, partially because I don't want to have to explain it, and partially because I want to work the steps without them worrying too much over a kratom habit/addiction.
> 
> Having switched to kratom after tapering a larger pod habit over a looong month, I'm not sure how my WDs might be if I cold turkeyed the kratom or did an aggressive taper. I don't wanna CT it, but I'm thinking I might be able to forego the second purchase and taper off using the kratom I have.
> 
> I got recreational with the kratom that came for a couple of days. It was nice to see such a decent amount of it after buying these tiny pricey bags at mini marts. So, I did not follow much of the advice I've given here. But I'm gonna try to be as good as my words so far.
> 
> I think for today I'll try to use just 2 of the 3 4g doses I have measured out. If I do that just fine, I can probably taper from there, and then not cave to the urge to make the second, slightly larger purchase, and risk the kratom getting its hooks into  me further.
> 
> OK, now it's yall's turn to give ME some advice!
> 
> love and peace to you all,
> pnm



If you do a 4 week taper with 80g, it would be something like dropping down to 8g starting tomorrow, 8g each day week 1, 6g week 2, 4g week 3, 2g week 4 - then you're out before week 4 is over. Seems kind of rapid.

I suggest going down to 8g tomorrow. Try 3 nights of that. If you flat out can't function then order 1 more shipment and plot a more conservative taper but draw the line there. Use loperamide and OTC pain relievers before you turn to anything else. Exercise will be the best thing you can do.


----------



## aallaann

Also - keep track of your intake of everything if you're on anything else. Take note if you're ramping up your other habits in place of the kratom. If you are then you're just trading habits. Try to make it so you are uncomfortable but not miserable. If you're hiding this from your friends and/or coworkers then tell them you are working through some sleep problems (they're going to notice your not right) but tell whoever you can the truth so you have support. The more people that know the better off you'll be.

If you're serious then post your progress on BL so you can get support here. You likely know the drill - you are going to backslide a few times, will not be perfect with your schedule, will likely find yourself buying some more little bags, etc. Don't let that alter your overall trajectory though.

You might be better off doing:
week 1: 8g (per day)
week 2: 6g 
week 3: 6g
week 4: 4g
week 5: 4g
week 6: 4g
week 7: 2g
week 8: 2g
week 9: 2g
week 10: 2g
week 11: 1g
week 12: 1g
week 13: 1g
week 14: 1g
week 15: 1g
week 16: 1g


----------



## podsnomo

aallaann said:


> Also - keep track of your intake of everything if you're on anything else. Take note if you're ramping up your other habits in place of the kratom. If you are then you're just trading habits. Try to make it so you are uncomfortable but not miserable. If you're hiding this from your friends and/or coworkers then tell them you are working through some sleep problems (they're going to notice your not right) but tell whoever you can the truth so you have support. The more people that know the better off you'll be.
> 
> If you're serious then post your progress on BL so you can get support here. You likely know the drill - you are going to backslide a few times, will not be perfect with your schedule, will likely find yourself buying some more little bags, etc. Don't let that alter your overall trajectory though.
> 
> You might be better off doing:
> week 1: 8g (per day)
> week 2: 6g
> week 3: 6g
> week 4: 4g
> week 5: 4g
> week 6: 4g
> week 7: 2g
> week 8: 2g
> week 9: 2g
> week 10: 2g
> week 11: 1g
> week 12: 1g
> week 13: 1g
> week 14: 1g
> week 15: 1g
> week 16: 1g



Thanks for the support, feedback, encouragement and advice slayer and alan. I did go ahead and get the second order. It's 6 oz: 4 oz bali, which I haven't tried yet and 2 oz thai. That's 170 g on top of the about 80 I have now of kratom that was just called kratom, with no variety marker on it from that vendor. 

Anyhow, I haven't done all the math yet, but I took three 5g doses today and then a cheaty little spoonful I didn't measure, but know to be around 3-4 grams, which I didn't really need. Tomorrow I'm cleaning my house and doing all kinds of stuff, so I'm probably going to do 3 5g doses again. 

When I take a break tomorrow I'll sit down and make the taper plan. 

The only other things I take are 1.5mg klonopin and 10mg ambien per day. I have some extra benzos though because of switching from xanax to klonopin after filling the xanax. I don't want to trade one for the other. Or, at least, I don't want to turn the manageable amount of benzos I've been taking for years (for legitimate panic disorder) into a serious problem. So my plan is to save the extra benzos for the worst part of the taper. I did this during my poppy pod taper, but they weren't quite enough, and so I relapsed on alcohol for a couple weeks.

Now I'm feeling so much better b/c the kratom is way less of a destroyer than the poppies were. But it's kind of up and down. The best dose is the morning one with coffee, say around 7 or 8, then I'm feelin' like I really need the 2nd when it gets to be 2 or 3. Then I take the third between 7-9 so that the more energetic phase will pass for bed time. I'm looking forward to being able to take the bali closer to bed time, in a smaller amount maybe, to help with the taper.

After tapering pods, I know I can do this, and I hope it'll be easier. For sure it'll be different. This kratom is such a different animal dammit!

Thanks for the guide Alan. I may need to adjust it per the 15g I seemed to need today.
Have you done this type of taper?
What's your experience with kratom...like how often you took it, how much, and for how long?

Thanks again guys!

peace,
pnm


----------



## aallaann

I used to make tea (then eat the leftover plant matter) along with toss n wash powdered leaf. When I did it I took about 9g per day for about 6 months but it was between other opiate addictions. I ended up on bupe eventually (which was supposed to be the end), then tramadol, then pregabalin / benzos. Right now I'm finishing my benzo taper which took years.  I kept jumping from opiate to opiate until I was averaging 800-1200mg tramadol per day for a few months then hit 1600 then stopped cold turkey. I started doing grams of pregabalin per day to make the tramadol wd easier and it was. But I was basically just transferring one substance for another all the way into the pregabalin. After this started to really effect my life I tapered and just dealt with the unpleasantness of it.

I think you'll be fine if you write down a taper plan (a realistic one) and then try to stick with it. Just be on the watch for another habit waiting to take kratom's place.


----------



## podsnomo

^ I already have a habit ready to take kratom's place, the gym. There's worse things to be addicted to, eh? Thanks again alan.


----------



## Beat It

I broke today at day 28 and consumed a medium dose probably 4-6 grams about an half hour ago, feel it a little. I need some to get through some brutal community service I'm gonna do tomorrow hopefully it won't set me back. Anyone think it will bring withdrawals back? I'm thinking probably mental but not physical. How much do you think it would take to get physically addicted again? Gonna probably do 3 doses in the course of a couple days. Any thoughts?


----------



## slayerhatesusall

Beat It said:


> I broke today at day 28 and consumed a medium dose probably 4-6 grams about an half hour ago, feel it a little. I need some to get through some brutal community service I'm gonna do tomorrow hopefully it won't set me back. Anyone think it will bring withdrawals back? I'm thinking probably mental but not physical. How much do you think it would take to get physically addicted again? Gonna probably do 3 doses in the course of a couple days. Any thoughts?


If you dose it multiple times in a period of a couple days then you could very easily get readdicted to it, seems like a bad idea. As for it bringing the w/ds back, did you have any w/ds left when taking it again? If not you should be fine. If you still had w/ds left even very slight ones then it could reignite the w/ds and make them worse but probably not as bad as they were before.


----------



## podsnomo

Oh my Goooood Beat it! You slipped! This has never happened to an addict evvver!  

Relax man. It'll be OK. For now, just count it as a temporary slip and get back on track if you can. I'm gonna go more depth in response to your PM. Just hang in bro.


----------



## aallaann

Yeah, I think I read that the primary alkaloids in kratom have a half life of 5 hours. By comparison xanax has a half life of around 11 hours and most would consider xanax a drug that is rapidly eliminated. What I'm getting at is that a single dose should give you a hangover either later the same day or the next day but after that you should be back to your normal withdrawals (where yo left off before you slipped).


----------



## podsnomo

aallaann said:


> Yeah, I think I read that the primary alkaloids in kratom have a half life of 5 hours. By comparison xanax has a half life of around 11 hours and most would consider xanax a drug that is rapidly eliminated. What I'm getting at is that a single dose should give you a hangover either later the same day or the next day but after that you should be back to your normal withdrawals (where yo left off before you slipped).



I found a source showing the half life of xanax at 6-12 hours. For me, my body eats through that shit in no time flat. More like 4 hours. Which is why my doc switched me to k-pin. I need to get a read on my kratom use and dosage schedule. This 5 hr half life thing wouldn't have occurred to me, so thanks. I'll use it in my taper plan.


----------



## Beat It

^^ Thanks guys, so I've taken some small doses in the past few days but I think I'm gonna be fine. The first time I dosed a couple days ago I got sooo sick, didn't even feel a buzz either so the next day I took a much smaller dose, (compared to what I used to take) maybe 3-4 grams... it was actually nice. Just a mood boost and a slight euphoria that seemed far from intoxicating, maybe like a couple percs... I haven't had any for 12 hours and I feel fine, doubt there's gonna be any w/d's. I guess I was just being a fiend... 8)



slayerhatesusall said:


> If you dose it multiple times in a period of a couple days then you could very easily get readdicted to it, seems like a bad idea. As for it bringing the w/ds back, did you have any w/ds left when taking it again? If not you should be fine. If you still had w/ds left even very slight ones then it could reignite the w/ds and make them worse but probably not as bad as they were before.



Well I am already addicted, I am always going be addicted, so I don't think I can get "readdicted" but your right, it probably was a bad idea. At least Kratom is not that bad though in terms of using it uncontrollably/ can't stop taking it in one sitting. A dose is enough for me. I don't have to take dose after dose like other drugs. Also, my w/d's had been gone for weeks. There were no lingering body w/d's, my mind was just a little fuzzy.

For someone who's quit a drug they were dependent on and started using again, how long do you think it would take to get dependent a second time? It probably would depend on how long they quit vs. how long they were dependent in the first place... Guess I'm just wondering if previous dependency would make a difference like the body could easily readapt to the drugs presence.


----------



## Beat It

aallaann said:


> Also - keep track of your intake of everything if you're on anything else. Take note if you're ramping up your other habits in place of the kratom. If you are then you're just trading habits. Try to make it so you are uncomfortable but not miserable. If you're hiding this from your friends and/or coworkers then tell them you are working through some sleep problems (they're going to notice your not right) but tell whoever you can the truth so you have support. The more people that know the better off you'll be.
> 
> If you're serious then post your progress on BL so you can get support here. You likely know the drill - you are going to backslide a few times, will not be perfect with your schedule, will likely find yourself buying some more little bags, etc. Don't let that alter your overall trajectory though.
> 
> You might be better off doing:
> week 1: 8g (per day)
> week 2: 6g
> week 3: 6g
> week 4: 4g
> week 5: 4g
> week 6: 4g
> week 7: 2g
> week 8: 2g
> week 9: 2g
> week 10: 2g
> week 11: 1g
> week 12: 1g
> week 13: 1g
> week 14: 1g
> week 15: 1g
> week 16: 1g



Aallaann this is awesome! I've scoured over the internet trying to find a taper plan! Would definitely use this if I needed it. I've heard at 1 gram it doesn't even pass the threshold so I think those doses would just keep your head on... at that point you'd probably been done with w/d's.


----------



## podsnomo

Beat It said:


> Aallaann this is awesome! I've scoured over the internet trying to find a taper plan! Would definitely use this if I needed it. I've heard at 1 gram it doesn't even pass the threshold so I think those doses would just keep your head on... at that point you'd probably been done with w/d's.



I wondered about that threshold deal. So, when weaning/tapering off, and you drop below the "threshold" does the dose not affect you in the buzz-way but still keep the WDs at bay? I'm hoping this will be easier than tapering off pods. All I can be sure of though is that it'll be different.

Also, that taper program is loooong. Much longer than opiate tapers I've seen. Is there a reason(s) for that?

Thanks again alan!


----------



## aallaann

I could feel 3g but not much below when I had a normal tolerance. But I've read of individuals in the midst of withdrawal getting relief from minuscule doses (leftover scrap at the bottom of old bags).

You're right, it is pretty long. The taper below should not be too bad. You could jump off at weeks 6-8 if you're not feeling awful. The idea is to make bigger cuts in the beginning and then slow it down as you taper. So if you plotted your use on a graph you should see it slopping gently downwards. Also spreading your doses out more throughout the day would help (avoiding peaks and valleys is best).

Pods (morphine / codeine) has a listed half life of 2-3 hours. That's pretty damn short and I imagine wd must suck. Kratom should be easier. Note that I'm not convinced kratom has a half life of 5 hours though. I suspect that mitragynine might be the alkaloid that was measured since its been studied longer and not 7-hydroxymitragynine which is now thought to be the primary alkaloid.

week 1: 8g
week 2: 6g 
week 3: 4g
week 4: 3g
week 5: 3g
week 6: 2g
week 7: 2g
week 8: 2g


----------



## Vaya

Nicely laid-out plan, *aallaann* 

Clear, concise and methodical. Props!

~ Vaya


----------



## podsnomo

Pods for me, and for many others I've talked to, lasted ALL DAY, like 8+ hours, even with a stiff tolerance, so not sure where you got that 2-3 hour HL, but I don't think it's right.



aallaann said:


> I could feel 3g but not much below when I had a normal tolerance. But I've read of individuals in the midst of withdrawal getting relief from minuscule doses (leftover scrap at the bottom of old bags).
> 
> You're right, it is pretty long. The taper below should not be too bad. You could jump off at weeks 6-8 if you're not feeling awful. The idea is to make bigger cuts in the beginning and then slow it down as you taper. So if you plotted your use on a graph you should see it slopping gently downwards. Also spreading your doses out more throughout the day would help (avoiding peaks and valleys is best).
> 
> Pods (morphine / codeine) has a listed half life of 2-3 hours. That's pretty damn short and I imagine wd must suck. Kratom should be easier. Note that I'm not convinced kratom has a half life of 5 hours though. I suspect that mitragynine might be the alkaloid that was measured since its been studied longer and not 7-hydroxymitragynine which is now thought to be the primary alkaloid.
> 
> week 1: 8g
> week 2: 6g
> week 3: 4g
> week 4: 3g
> week 5: 3g
> week 6: 2g
> week 7: 2g
> week 8: 2g


----------



## andyn6990

Heya guys, Sorry i aint posted in a while i aint really been up to it, i dunno wot happened but a couple of weeks ago while i was on the kratom i went into a horrid depression , so i quit cold turkey well the first week was absolute hell i couldnt sleep but was taking naps in the day i used alcohol and diazepam for 1 night which worked for a 6 hour sleep for some relief,i took loperamide on day 6 which helped with the loose stools, i had extreme brain fog by day 7 for some reason but that seems to have improved slightly  ,im on day 12 now but just feel emotionally flat which makes me feel like using again, im currently taking b complex ,calcium and 5htp supplements and some melatonin at nights , my sleep seems to be getting bk to normal the last few nights which is a relief My daytimes at the moment are just pacing around the house maybe akathesia but not sure i just hope this passes soon ,Im just trying to stop the the temptation of using again now! sorry if its hard to read my heads a lil all over the place at the moment Hope everyones ok, will keep updated , Much love, Andy!


----------



## podsnomo

Hang in there andy. You've done the hardest part dude. It's good you're getting those supplements in you. If you can add some exercise, even though I know that idea may sound like shit, that'll help you feel better, lots better. If you have slipped and used, just put it behind you and move on. It won't put you back to day 1. 

Let us know how you get on. 
You can do it brother!
pnm


----------



## Beat It

Hey andy, I know exactly what your going through as I was there a few weeks ago. 

I know you've heard it before but since your past the physical part, go exercise. It really really helps out a lot. If you can do cardio for 30 mins to an hour all the better. I know it sounds shitty to go exercise but just do it. It will definitely help with the mental fog.

Also, it's been said here and there on the site, but hot-cold showers also really help. Start off with the water warm like you would for a regular shower and then when your done washing up turn off the hot water and turn the cold water up all the way. Hang in there like this for about 5 mins or until the water doesn't feel cold anymore. It gives you a rush of endorphins and a nice buzz for awhile. Definetly good relief. 

Hang in there the second week is the worst mentally. If you eat right and exercise, each day will get better. After the second week Ide say you can drink again. I just wouldn't advise it while the paws are just starting in case you switch addictions.


----------



## Beat It

Pods have your heard from Kosmos recently? I hope he's doing alright.


----------



## podsnomo

Beat It said:


> Pods have your heard from Kosmos recently? I hope he's doing alright.



I have not. I'll send a pm and let you know.


----------



## Kosmos7

Hey guys.  Was just thinking about checking back in with y'all not too long ago.  I'm doing fine.  Better.  Back on the kratom but handling it better; no more skipping doses in a hopeless attempt to lower my tolerance.  Kind of accepted that when the (lack of) kratom is making me feel like shit, I gotta eat some.  On the plus side, I am getting the individual doses down pretty low.  Like 4g-ish, usually.  Usually twice a day, rarely once or three times in a day on certain occasions.  I'm finding it easier to go longer between doses, too.  At least sometimes.  Sometimes I can push close to 24 hours without feeling too terrible.  I do not know if that has something to do with the week off I took from it, or if it's just in my head, or what.  

That said I'm still very much intending to get off it in the near future.  I actually got some of that loperamide stuff right before I got back into the kratom, to see how it helped.  And it helped a ton.  Like, amazingly well.  I only took it once so I don't know if maybe it was a fluke or based on something else, but I took it after going a while without any kratom, and it helped at least 50% of the physical symptoms, I'd estimate.  Which relieved me mentall, as well.  Really made me feel pretty decent.  It's relative though, of course.  I went from feeling super crappy to decent, so it was a big relief, but I dunno how reliable the relief will be.  We'll see, I guess.  

So I'm optimistic that since I've only been using kratom for 10 months (with some small breaks here and there) and my average daily intake was probably around 8g (never measured it properly but I know it isn't over 10g, just based on how much is in the 5g sample bags I get with my orders), I should have a relatively smooth 'getting clean' process.  The loperamide in particular has given my a lot of hope, because it's an easy to acquire, inexpensive, not really addicting treatment.  And when I made my first post during my 5th day or whatever of no kratom, I didn't have the loperamide.  I don't even really know how/why I didn't learn that it's a great help, why I didn't go and get some before trying to quit.  Like I said before, I seemed to have rushed into the whole thing ill-prepared and with poor timing.  Like a stubborn cold turkey approach, almost. 

I feel more confident just knowing what I'll have in store for me, too.  But also, to be fair and honest, I'm still very much not looking forward to those first few days and beyond without the kratom.  

Question about loperamide though: some people make it seem like it only helps with the diarrhea.  But it's supposed to help with the physical symptoms in general, right?  Which the diarrhea is tied into, of course.  But I've been hearing mixed things about it.  Some people say it doesn't help very much at all, other's say it offers at least moderate relief.

edit: just checked my order history with my kratom source and did a rough calculation to see what my average intake is, and it actually came out to almost exactly 8g per day (give or take a gram, I suppose, due to inconsistent ordering patterns, amounts, etc.).  This is based on the my order history since January.


----------



## Kosmos7

BTW, I haven't read any of this thread after I made that last post before I disappeared for a while, yet.  So I'm gonna read it over and respond as necessary.  Sorry to leave you guys hanging!


----------



## podsnomo

^No problem Kozzy. We just wondered how you were doing.

As for me, I've been taking too much kratom, and will be starting my taper tomorrow by trying 3 4g doses, or 2 if I can. 
Then I'll have an idea what I'm dealing with. I think my now-dead pods habit was still causing problems up until a couple days ago.
So, then I started feeling better and was like, "wheee now I can feel good if I take more kratom..."
But I don't want this to get going to heavy.
I wonder how it will go since my kratom habit was pretty short,
but it was dovetailed from a taper off of far more potent shit--opium and codeine and other stuff in the pods.

So, am I dealing with just my kratom habit to quit,
or more than that since I had the previous habit?
Will it be as bad as stopping pods?
Probably not?
Might it be worse than stopping kratom without the previous habit?
We shall see.

Here I go. I'll keep you guys updated.

peace,
podsnomo


----------



## Opanaking

I haven't had a problem with being addicted to kratom. But I have had a problem with it extending my withdrawals. I've been trying to quit poppy pod/seed tea and thought if I jumped onto kratom it would help. Well it's only good to use it very sparingly during withdrawal, so the process can actually complete it self. This time I just tapered and didn't take any kratom and feel like i'm almost through the woods. Kratom is really interesting, when I first discovered the stuff I didn't have a tolerance because I had already quit opiates. So I got buzzed off it a few times and enjoyed the energy boost, made work easy. I did notice the next day I would have a hang over. Probably the reason I never could get hooked on kratom is after a few weeks of taking it I would just get tired of it. The high is good half the time and other times it can be anxiety provoking. 

Kratom strikes me as a very valuable tool for combating paws from suboxone or methadone. It's best to use it sparingly so you wont have problems down the road.


----------



## asiam

hello guys, i'm so happy to read all of your posts and see how connected you guys are here in this thread, and in your progress. I'm also trying to ditch kratom after a half-year habit. I also have underlying anxiety/depression and kratom, for a while, seemed like a miracle and took it all away. Eventually, it was causing more pain than it was taking away, making me extremely irritable, tired, depressed, anxious, motivation-less... causing really terrible insomnia and reliance on other substances, as well (like parting into drinking alcohol on a regular basis when the kraton wore off). Eventually kratom would only give me a very slight high for 30 mins - 2 hours, and then would dive straight into extreme irritability, dazed-foggy headedness and ETC. Whereas when I first used it, it would last a good 6 hours and I would have tons of energy to work out hard, socialize, get things done.

I'm on day 4 now and have restarted this about 3 times due to going back to it for one reason or another (mainly being around triggers, needing more energy than withdrawal can give me). Kratom withdrawal for me means deep depression where it's very hard to get out of bed or feel any good things from simple life, sore body parts, 0 energy at all (almost like a long blood sugar crash), sleepiness, and a lot of anxiety (thoughts on repeat, worrying about EVERYTHING and stressing self out). It also feels like I can't feel comfortable, or find a comfort zone at all in anything. I have no urge to use kratom or drink alcohol but I'm excited to re-realize what normal feels like again.

I'm trying my best to eat healthy, and plan to get daily exercise starting with low-stress activities and moving onto harder cardio to keep me feeling energized in the second week.

Also I have so much kratom I don't know what to do with it. I have around 200g of the stuff and that seems to expensive to flush..


----------



## podsnomo

Welcome, welcome, asiam. As you were, soldier! 

It sounds like you're doing well man. You got a good plan, and you know how important the exercise will be.
You've made attempts, so you know your triggers. Now you just gotta stick with it til it gets better. And it will.

I'm trying to quit kratom too, so I suppose we're in this together.
I guess you read about loperamide, that helps with the physical WDs.

Best to ya,
and let us know how it goes.

pnm


----------



## podsnomo

Now, here's somebody I got questions for. I came to kratom after tapering off of a pod habit. You found that it extended your withdrawals? How so?

I had WDs that were moderate-mild for about a month and a half on my taper. Constant WDs that weren't bad enough to keep me at home like when I tried to quit CT. 
Now then, I started kratom when I was down to 1g of poppy pods/day. And now I have not kept the kratom in check, and am certainly not using it sparingly, but I want to be totally sober. 

My fear is that my WDs will be worse b/c of starting the kratom right at the end before my last pod dose, which was tiny. I have noticed though that my pod WDs seemed to go away after about a week and half of being on the kratom. So maybe they're different enough that one won't effect the other? I'm wondering what your experience was in this regard, and what else you might be able to advise me about?

Thanks man, and keep up that good fight!
pnm



Opanaking said:


> I haven't had a problem with being addicted to kratom. But I have had a problem with it extending my withdrawals. I've been trying to quit poppy pod/seed tea and thought if I jumped onto kratom it would help. Well it's only good to use it very sparingly during withdrawal, so the process can actually complete it self. This time I just tapered and didn't take any kratom and feel like i'm almost through the woods. Kratom is really interesting, when I first discovered the stuff I didn't have a tolerance because I had already quit opiates. So I got buzzed off it a few times and enjoyed the energy boost, made work easy. I did notice the next day I would have a hang over. Probably the reason I never could get hooked on kratom is after a few weeks of taking it I would just get tired of it. The high is good half the time and other times it can be anxiety provoking.
> 
> Kratom strikes me as a very valuable tool for combating paws from suboxone or methadone. It's best to use it sparingly so you wont have problems down the road.


----------



## andyn6990

Heya guys, i ended up doin some kratom yesterday only about 5g in morning to ease the depression a bit, had a few beers last nite too ,ive always been a bit of an alcoholic which is why i loved kratom so much coz it stopped me drinking and stopped alcohol cravings and such, anyway I went for a run earliar which helped, ive been thinking weather its worth just going bk on a low dose kratom daily and tapering off slowly ,Do you think that will ease the depression and make it easier? Ive got a docs appointment on tuesday gonna ask for a full checkup bloodwork done and stuff to check if everything is ok!  Heya asiam i know what you mean about the kratom being amazing at first and then turning sour on ya , towards the end i had horrendous brain fog and dizziness on it! Ill keep you updated on my progress anyway , Hope everything is goin good with you guys, much love Andy!


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## silentcowboy

andyn6990 said:


> Heya guys, i ended up doin some kratom yesterday only about 5g in morning to ease the depression a bit, had a few beers last nite too ,ive always been a bit of an alcoholic which is why i loved kratom so much coz it stopped me drinking and stopped alcohol cravings and such, anyway I went for a run earliar which helped, *ive been thinking weather its worth just going bk on a low dose kratom daily and tapering off slowly ,Do you think that will ease the depression and make it easier?* Ive got a docs appointment on tuesday gonna ask for a full checkup bloodwork done and stuff to check if everything is ok!  Heya asiam i know what you mean about the kratom being amazing at first and then turning sour on ya , towards the end i had horrendous brain fog and dizziness on it! Ill keep you updated on my progress anyway , Hope everything is goin good with you guys, much love Andy!



This is totally up to you. Im just wondering if your going to be able to taper down and quit again with your tolerance so low. In other words, your buzz will be a lot better then they were, possibly making you more psychologically addicted then before. On a scale of 1 to 10 how bad is your depression on a daily bases? Maybe you could take like 1/2 a gram every 2 hours to combat depression?


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## Opanaking

podsnomo said:


> Now, here's somebody I got questions for. I came to kratom after tapering off of a pod habit. You found that it extended your withdrawals? How so?
> 
> I had WDs that were moderate-mild for about a month and a half on my taper. Constant WDs that weren't bad enough to keep me at home like when I tried to quit CT.
> Now then, I started kratom when I was down to 1g of poppy pods/day. And now I have not kept the kratom in check, and am certainly not using it sparingly, but I want to be totally sober.
> 
> My fear is that my WDs will be worse b/c of starting the kratom right at the end before my last pod dose, which was tiny. I have noticed though that my pod WDs seemed to go away after about a week and half of being on the kratom. So maybe they're different enough that one won't effect the other? I'm wondering what your experience was in this regard, and what else you might be able to advise me about?
> 
> Thanks man, and keep up that good fight!
> pnm



If you tapered all the way down to 1 gram you should of quit and road it out. Kratom extends the withdrawal because it's still hitting opiate receptors usually delta and Mu. You did a great job tapering that low, once you get that low in a taper it's more beneficial to start skipping 1 day, then skipping 2 days and dosing before you stop altogether. That makes you come off it that much smoother because you really extended it. Kratom also has a short half life, that's not good at all for tapering.

I'm sure you realize this but it's just kind of like switching addictions. If you did want to use kratom during withdrawal you would only want to do it when the symptoms  became to intense. Part of getting back to baseline where you were before you started taking opiates is to not feel 100%, the only way to recover is to stop and accept withdrawal. 

At this point you might just want to dedicate a week to feeling out of it and get it over with. Excercise, take vitamins, and eat as much food as you possibly can. Stay busy and you'll be asking your self why you didn't quit sooner. Plus your eyes wont be out of focus, that side effect really turned me off. If you are having a lot of trouble you could always taper with the pods again and when you stop dont take anything accept maybe lopermide. If you dont want to go that route then just do a fast taper from the kratom and quit.


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## podsnomo

I responded to you earlier, but wanted to also say, flushing that 200g of kratom is a small price to pay for a sober life, esp if you're already over the worst of WD and feeling better.



asiam said:


> hello guys, i'm so happy to read all of your posts and see how connected you guys are here in this thread, and in your progress. I'm also trying to ditch kratom after a half-year habit. I also have underlying anxiety/depression and kratom, for a while, seemed like a miracle and took it all away. Eventually, it was causing more pain than it was taking away, making me extremely irritable, tired, depressed, anxious, motivation-less... causing really terrible insomnia and reliance on other substances, as well (like parting into drinking alcohol on a regular basis when the kraton wore off). Eventually kratom would only give me a very slight high for 30 mins - 2 hours, and then would dive straight into extreme irritability, dazed-foggy headedness and ETC. Whereas when I first used it, it would last a good 6 hours and I would have tons of energy to work out hard, socialize, get things done.
> 
> I'm on day 4 now and have restarted this about 3 times due to going back to it for one reason or another (mainly being around triggers, needing more energy than withdrawal can give me). Kratom withdrawal for me means deep depression where it's very hard to get out of bed or feel any good things from simple life, sore body parts, 0 energy at all (almost like a long blood sugar crash), sleepiness, and a lot of anxiety (thoughts on repeat, worrying about EVERYTHING and stressing self out). It also feels like I can't feel comfortable, or find a comfort zone at all in anything. I have no urge to use kratom or drink alcohol but I'm excited to re-realize what normal feels like again.
> 
> I'm trying my best to eat healthy, and plan to get daily exercise starting with low-stress activities and moving onto harder cardio to keep me feeling energized in the second week.
> 
> Also I have so much kratom I don't know what to do with it. I have around 200g of the stuff and that seems to expensive to flush..


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## podsnomo

That's kinda what I figured. I've got a bunch of kratom, so I can taper quickly and keep it around to fend off the worst WDs or to use a couple grams to get through something I gotta be super alert for, like my job (part time brain-trainer). But only if I'm feeling really whacked by the WDs. I used less today, and only twice so far. By this time yesterday I had used 3 times and was about to take #4. SO, I just mowed lawns in 100+degree weather. Endorphins are up there, so I'll try and not dose again today. If I can't sleep I'll do 2-3g of bali at night. My usual dose is 7-9g.



Opanaking said:


> If you tapered all the way down to 1 gram you should of quit and road it out. Kratom extends the withdrawal because it's still hitting opiate receptors usually delta and Mu. You did a great job tapering that low, once you get that low in a taper it's more beneficial to start skipping 1 day, then skipping 2 days and dosing before you stop altogether. That makes you come off it that much smoother because you really extended it. Kratom also has a short half life, that's not good at all for tapering.
> 
> I'm sure you realize this but it's just kind of like switching addictions. If you did want to use kratom during withdrawal you would only want to do it when the symptoms  became to intense. Part of getting back to baseline where you were before you started taking opiates is to not feel 100%, the only way to recover is to stop and accept withdrawal.
> 
> At this point you might just want to dedicate a week to feeling out of it and get it over with. Excercise, take vitamins, and eat as much food as you possibly can. Stay busy and you'll be asking your self why you didn't quit sooner. Plus your eyes wont be out of focus, that side effect really turned me off. If you are having a lot of trouble you could always taper with the pods again and when you stop dont take anything accept maybe lopermide. If you dont want to go that route then just do a fast taper from the kratom and quit.


----------



## asiam

Loperamide, is that a prescription thing? I'm going to have to do some research on that. 

I actually had to tell a friend that I needed space because it was such a trigger for me. That was hard. 

Hey andy, you're doing great. Getting your exercise and going for a blood checkup, big thumbs up. A blood check up is a great idea.  Yes, it's insane how invested I was in kratom when I first discovered it and first tried it. What a miracle! Honestly, if it kept up for me and worked that good all the time, I would probably never get off of it. However, even a week into when I first started using it, I noticed huge hangovers the next day. 

Darn, I really don't know if I can bring myself to flush it! Part of me is like, okay, I can keep it for emergency anxiety situations in the far future. I do have anxiety after all. At the same time, I'd rather not rely on anything.  So I'll have to think on that. I was thinking about flushing most of it, but keeping a tiny amount, not nearly enough to use continuously. 


Today was hard and I was sick of coping with the withdrawals, or sick of coping with reality. I didn't turn to kratom but rather tons of caffeine and an enormous sugar binge.  Hmmm... that was the wrong choice, seeing those are two addictions that tie into my kratom addiction, and sugar tends to cost me the next day almost as much as kratom neuro-transmitter wise.  You know, sugar has opoid and stimulant properties. I often thing that my kratom addiction was brought on by my sugar addiction. They are so interchangeable for me that I feel I need to quit them both.

Does anybody know the activity between dopamine and kratom? I am beginning to think that I am dopamine deficient, perhaps just from caffeine, SSRIs and sugar addiction.  It would make sense that kratom releases a moderate-large amount of dopamine given that it always acted as a motivational pick-me up, VERY strongly for me.

So that's all I gotta say. I am scared that I may use kratom tomorrow just based on feeling extra shitty from not taking the greatest care of my neuro-health today. I have a trip to go on in 3 days and I want to be functional by then, so I don't expect to use kratom tomorrow. I do expect to start a low-sugar and moderate carb type plan tomorrow so that triggers are kept to a minimum...

I don't know how you all keep to taper plans. Wish I could taper, but even a very small amount causes more brainfog than withdrawal.


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## Opanaking

podsnomo said:


> That's kinda what I figured. I've got a bunch of kratom, so I can taper quickly and keep it around to fend off the worst WDs or to use a couple grams to get through something I gotta be super alert for, like my job (part time brain-trainer). But only if I'm feeling really whacked by the WDs. I used less today, and only twice so far. By this time yesterday I had used 3 times and was about to take #4. SO, I just mowed lawns in 100+degree weather. Endorphins are up there, so I'll try and not dose again today. If I can't sleep I'll do 2-3g of bali at night. My usual dose is 7-9g.



You know what your best bet would be, just drop off the kratom and get some poppy seeds. If there washed or not it doesn't matter, it has a longer half life, taper from that and you'll be good. Today is day 6 for me and I was actually able to sleep in this morning, I wake up a lot during the middle of the night and my legs are a little restless. But it's nothing a little excercise doesn't cure. Just get away from the kratom, it's making things to complicated. Get some natural herbs like valerien, kava, california poppy, or passion flower to help you sleep.


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## silentcowboy

Opanaking said:


> You know what your best bet would be, just drop off the kratom and get some poppy seeds. If there washed or not it doesn't matter, it has a longer half life, taper from that and you'll be good. Today is day 6 for me and I was actually able to sleep in this morning, I wake up a lot during the middle of the night and my legs are a little restless. But it's nothing a little excercise doesn't cure. Just get away from the kratom, it's making things to complicated. *Get some natural herbs* like valerien, kava, california poppy, or passion flower to help you sleep.



Kratom is a natural herb, although i know what you mean. I do have a question about the poppy seeds though, wouldnt that prolong WD? also switching around opiates at a low dose seems like it would be more complicated to get dosing right?


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## asiam

from my research on poppyseed tea, it seems unreliable and expensive, no? You need to find the right unwashed seeds or pods, or is it easier than it seems? 

day 6 woo hoo. I remember reading somebody saying that the worst anxiety and depression comes after day 5? That seems about right for me. Day 1-4 were more physical but hopeful but day 5 and 6 have been challenging. I am very depressed and it is troubling and a bit worrying. I'm going to let myself have bit of alcohol, caffeine and extra food if that needs be, because the depression aspect of this withdrawal is unexpectedly deep. I might even retract my original plan to just cold-turkey it, and start tapering tonight or tomorrow, can't decide yet though if that's a good idea. I'm sure kratom withdrawal is not as big of a deal for those who did not suffer depression before getting into it, although my depression was never this bad. Hope everybody else is doing pretty good. I'm posting tons because I have had no energy to get off the darn computer lol what do you all do during these withdrawal days?


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## asiam

K. I took a teaspoon. And I'm totally glad I did that. I am going to transition. I was craving really weird shit and having really worrying thoughts (self harm/ suicide?) that have been staved away 50% at least from the small amount of kratom I took. Important to note, I have not had such thoughts before. Never heard of the kratom depression being so severe. So the deep depression withdrawal, isn't worth it.... Going off of kratom? Taper, ya'll, TAPER... Still having weird thoughts because of such low dose and I'm guessing just the long term effects. Still waiting on any dopamine info in relation to kratom, if you have any knowledge  or even suspicion of this, my full attention to thee!


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## asiam

So today's total was 2 tsp, and it did take away the horrible depression for at least 4 hours. Of course there was nausea, and now I am extremely agitated/irritable and the depression is coming back even harder. Not worth the dosing, and next time I dose to stave away withdrawal, I will stick to 1 tsp or none at all. I am so taken aback by how unexpected all of this is suddenly. Hence the 3 posts in a row


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## podsnomo

No way man. Kratom WDs are nothing compared to what I dealt with poppies. I can get away from the kratom without going back to my original, much meaner demon.



Opanaking said:


> You know what your best bet would be, just drop off the kratom and get some poppy seeds. If there washed or not it doesn't matter, it has a longer half life, taper from that and you'll be good. Today is day 6 for me and I was actually able to sleep in this morning, I wake up a lot during the middle of the night and my legs are a little restless. But it's nothing a little excercise doesn't cure. Just get away from the kratom, it's making things to complicated. Get some natural herbs like valerien, kava, california poppy, or passion flower to help you sleep.


----------



## podsnomo

asiam said:


> So today's total was 2 tsp, and it did take away the horrible depression for at least 4 hours. Of course there was nausea, and now I am extremely agitated/irritable and the depression is coming back even harder. Not worth the dosing, and next time I dose to stave away withdrawal, I will stick to 1 tsp or none at all. I am so taken aback by how unexpected all of this is suddenly. Hence the 3 posts in a row



Man, sounds like you have some not-so-good kratom? To have nausea either means you don't respond well to the strain of kratom you're using or you're using too much at once. Might it be the enhanced stuff? And tsp? Dude, you should get a little scale (jewelry scale on amazon around 10 bucks) so you know how much you're taking. 

It's OK that you've been taken aback. Going through this shit is a learning process, so don't view your setbacks, changes, and moodswings as negatives. Yes, they suck, but they are positives in that they teach what you can handle, what you can't, and remind you why you are suffering through them; so you can be free of dealing with shit someday soon. 

In the midst of the worst, a day seems like a year. Once you get through it, those days will seem like blips in the past, and you'll be so grateful you did it.

Hang in there brother.

peace and love,
pnm


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## Opanaking

Yeah that wasn't a good recommendation on my part. The point I was trying to make is being dependent to a less potent opiate is still not good. Lets say someone was taking morphine then they switched to codeine to withdrawal, then stayed on codeine. It would still suck being dependent on codeine even though it's weak. Kratom is good as a withdrawal aid when taken in small enough amounts, not large enough amounts to hinder your recovery, just enough to ease the withdrawal symptoms and make it easier to go through when it gets to intense. That's the proper way. The way I look at it is the weaker ones still produce withdrawal and that's what you want away from.


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## podsnomo

Opanaking said:


> Yeah that wasn't a good recommendation on my part. The point I was trying to make is being dependent to a less potent opiate is still not good. Lets say someone was taking morphine then they switched to codeine to withdrawal, then stayed on codeine. It would still suck being dependent on codeine even though it's weak. Kratom is good as a withdrawal aid when taken in small enough amounts, not large enough amounts to hinder your recovery, just enough to ease the withdrawal symptoms and make it easier to go through when it gets to intense. That's the proper way. The way I look at it is the weaker ones still produce withdrawal and that's what you want away from.



I think you're right on there man. And I know what you mean about wanting away from the WDs. I'll be honest, after about a month and half of moderate agony on the poppy pod taper, I've let myself get into the kratom more than I intended. Now I'll have to go through some more WD, but hopefully it will be easier than my pod adventure. I certainly know how to get through a taper though. I did with alcohol, twice. I did with pods once after an unsuccessful CT attempt. Now I'm trying to taper off the kratom.

I don't have a good schedule yet though. I was on the pods so long that I knew what to expect from being off them for certain amounts of time or what it was gonna go through when I had o stretch what I had until a shipment arrived. 

Yesterday I went on a 7 mile canoe trip (awesome!) And I used less than the day before. Today, I've used as much as yesterday, but in 2 larger doses instead of 4 smaller ones. This seems to work better. I took my larger a.m. dose at 8 and didn't start to feel the first part of WDs until 4. That's 8 hours, so my reasoning is that my second, similar-sized dose will last me until tomorrow. That way there's 16 hours between the 4 p.m. and 8 a.m. doses. This will allow some of what I cal WD progress to happen overnight. 

I used this strategy to good effect some of the time during my pod taper. If the WDs were not coming on strong enough to keep from getting to sleep, then I could stay asleep, and wake up feeling the harder WDs, and then take my next dose on the taper schedule. 

It's a theory, but the way I imagine it working is that on a taper you spread out what would be a monumental WD process over a longer time, and the more moderate WDs you go through, the more your brain starts adjusting to being without the substance. So going through moderate WDs during the taper = progress towards normalizing without the drug. 

I think I'm going to go on with 2 doses a day for now rather than 4. I'll do what I did yesterday and today, or maybe a gram less each dose, for one or 2 more days, then drop about a third and wait 3-5 days for some stabilizing, and continue that way. I do thirds when doses are larger and then I'll do smaller fractions when I get lower and closer to the jump. 

Right now I'm doing 11-12g twice a day instead of about 3g 4 times a day. Another complicating factor here though is my current stash of several various strains: maeng da, bali, malaysian, and one just labeled "kratom" from a different vendor, which is similar to the maeng da. Anyway, I'll do the math today, and if I need to order more will order only one strain, and only enough to finish the taper, with some wiggle room for unexpected bumps along the way. Like on my taper from pods I dropped from 7g to 5g (both tiny compared to my worst times of up to 90g/day) but had too much of a reaction, so went to 6 and stayed there a few extra days before dropping by single grams every 3 or 4 days. 

I'm all over the place with what I'm saying, but what I did was I used kratom for the first time on my second to last day of 1g/day pod powder. Such a fucking relief! I was having my Bday party at my house and wanted to not be moderately miserable for once, as I had been for 6 weeks. I also snuck some vodka that night, as I had been for a week or two towards the end of the pod taper. Damn those days were rough.

Right now it's easy to get too comfortable because kratom is working for me now, but I know it'll quit working and tolerance will continue to rise. I know it's best to taper now, and it helps to say here that I'm doing so. SO I expect you guys to hold me to it!

thanks and peace to all,
pnm


----------



## Beat It

Pods I think you might be using this thread to procrastinate a little bit maybe?  Are you currently tapering from much higher doses or are you at that point where you know you gotta quit but don't want to yet? I found that even after 9 months my tolerance was still relatively similar to what it was when I started. I kinda just got forced into quitting because I messed up an order and I went through 4 days of withdrawal so I figured I'de just ride it out. I probably wouldn't have if I would have known it was gonna last for almost three weeks... I think it lasted so long for me because when I'm at my baseline I'm already predisposed to depression.

For you guys who are talking about the brain-fog and agitation that comes with long term use of Kratom it might be caused in part by dehydration. I know that when I was taking it daily I would have to drink a bunch of water otherwise my vision would get fucked up, I wouldn't be able to think strait, and I would feel agitated. Also, taking a multivitamin and getting sunlight would alleviate some of the negative side effects.

Taking those doses last week was a bad idea. It was strange I only used it a few days in a row (maybe around 2 ounces) and I was fine after 24 hours of not using it but then around 48 hours I started experiencing w/ds AGAIN... I figured they would only last a day or so but so far they've lasted 3 days. The w/ds aren't as bad as they were the first time but I don't have any sleep meds/ benzos to help me sleep so in some ways its more painful. I was also using PST in-between the days I would take Kratom and I wonder if that had something to do with it. At least I got everything done that I needed to for Probation! Now as soon as I turn in my paperwork my case will be terminated after 2 years! 

Loperamide can basically totally eliminate my withdrawal symptoms. I took a big dose today and I feel totally fine. I know tomorrow I'm gonna kinda feel shitty again as seeing I give myself a day in-between loperamide doses. I know it doesn't always work with harder opiates but I took around 50 mg (I know thats a lot) and my physical symptoms disappeared. It took about an hour and a half to kick in but when it finally did I fell asleep like a baby and stayed asleep all day... It was nice considering I didn't get a good night sleep for 4 days before that.

At this point in my life, I don't know if I want to stay off Kratom. It's hard to decide because on one hand, I can work so much harder at everything when I'm on Kratom but, on the other, I know in the long-term this probably won't be the case. It is also awesome at keeping me off of other drugs while I'm on it but while experiencing withdrawals my mind has been turning back to alcohol and other drugs. I'm going to a University in the fall and I want to be on my A game. If that means staying sober for awhile during the summer and then maybe getting back on Kratom then so be it. I know it's not ideal, but realistically I fell as though I'm going to be under too much stress not to have something to take the edge off. Opiates are such a powerful force. I feel like they can be used for good and evil but it's so difficult to try and control.


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## podsnomo

Yes, I'm procrastinating.  And I'm not coming from far higher doses, and I know I gotta quit. I do and don't want to though. I know, from all my previous experiences, that all drugs, alcohol included, eventually stop doing what got us hooked on them. They just quit working. Sooner or later. And the later it is, the harder it is. So I know I gotta get this kratom problem solved fast. 

Which brings me to the end of your post. I don't think it's difficult to try and control, I think it's impossible. It eventually gets you. At least, it eventually gets me, and every other addict I've ever known. If you go back to it man, just know that more than likely you're setting yourself up for worse later on. For me, I'd like to get to the point where taking the edge off means working out, gardening, sex, jerking off, doing something creative, etc. Positive things that will enhance my life rather than eventually fucking it over. I know I can't control it. 

And that's the first step in AA. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. 

Yep, that's me. Powerless. And it feels good to know it. Without help it is too much for me. 

God, (even though I don't believe in god), please relieve me of the bondage of self!

pnm 



Beat It said:


> Pods I think you might be using this thread to procrastinate a little bit maybe?  Are you currently tapering from much higher doses or are you at that point where you know you gotta quit but don't want to yet? I found that even after 9 months my tolerance was still relatively similar to what it was when I started. I kinda just got forced into quitting because I messed up an order and I went through 4 days of withdrawal so I figured I'de just ride it out. I probably wouldn't have if I would have known it was gonna last for almost three weeks... I think it lasted so long for me because when I'm at my baseline I'm already predisposed to depression.
> 
> For you guys who are talking about the brain-fog and agitation that comes with long term use of Kratom it might be caused in part by dehydration. I know that when I was taking it daily I would have to drink a bunch of water otherwise my vision would get fucked up, I wouldn't be able to think strait, and I would feel agitated. Also, taking a multivitamin and getting sunlight would alleviate some of the negative side effects.
> 
> Taking those doses last week was a bad idea. It was strange I only used it a few days in a row (maybe around 2 ounces) and I was fine after 24 hours of not using it but then around 48 hours I started experiencing w/ds AGAIN... I figured they would only last a day or so but so far they've lasted 3 days. The w/ds aren't as bad as they were the first time but I don't have any sleep meds/ benzos to help me sleep so in some ways its more painful. I was also using PST in-between the days I would take Kratom and I wonder if that had something to do with it. At least I got everything done that I needed to for Probation! Now as soon as I turn in my paperwork my case will be terminated after 2 years!
> 
> Loperamide can basically totally eliminate my withdrawal symptoms. I took a big dose today and I feel totally fine. I know tomorrow I'm gonna kinda feel shitty again as seeing I give myself a day in-between loperamide doses. I know it doesn't always work with harder opiates but I took around 50 mg (I know thats a lot) and my physical symptoms disappeared. It took about an hour and a half to kick in but when it finally did I fell asleep like a baby and stayed asleep all day... It was nice considering I didn't get a good night sleep for 4 days before that.
> 
> At this point in my life, I don't know if I want to stay off Kratom. It's hard to decide because on one hand, I can work so much harder at everything when I'm on Kratom but, on the other, I know in the long-term this probably won't be the case. It is also awesome at keeping me off of other drugs while I'm on it but while experiencing withdrawals my mind has been turning back to alcohol and other drugs. I'm going to a University in the fall and I want to be on my A game. If that means staying sober for awhile during the summer and then maybe getting back on Kratom then so be it. I know it's not ideal, but realistically I fell as though I'm going to be under too much stress not to have something to take the edge off. Opiates are such a powerful force. I feel like they can be used for good and evil but it's so difficult to try and control.


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## asiam

I think the main problem is that my kratom is THAI not BALI...... I feel like Thai kratom releases more dopamine and, norepinephrine and adrenaline, but has less effect on the Mu opiod receptors. I have found tha Bali kratom goes down well with the tolerance I have, but thai kratom will give me horrible negative effects (extreme rage!) .They are very different things, according to my body at least. I am actually considering buying bali kratom just so that the negative side effects aren't so harsh, so that I can taper. Right now, taking about 8 grams a day (4 grams in the morning and 4 grams in the evening) seem like a good taper, but I don't want them to include the harsh effects that Thai kratom comes with,  so I may order some Bali and some Stem and vein powder tomorrow.


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## podsnomo

Cool man. Let us know how it goes. I read, maybe in the kratom mega thread, that someone had great results using stem powder to combat WDs and lower tolerance. I may consider looking for some stem powder too. I hear it's cheap, and if it keeps the WDs at bay and helps a taper, thus helping a dude quit, then awesomeness. 

I haven't had the negative effects you mention, but wonder if I might develop them. I do get more of the adrenaline feeling from the maeng da (thai) than the others. I once took some bali to "top off" a good maeng da buzz and got nauseous and felt like shit, so now I'm leery of it. I've only taken the bali at night. Maybe I'll try taking some bali for my later dose today. I decided instead of 12 to do 11g this morning. Then I'll be dropping to 9g tomorrow and keep that at twice a day for 3-5 days depending on how it affects me.

Definitely let me/us know how the stem powder works in your taper/quit process.

Best o' luck,
pods



asiam said:


> I think the main problem is that my kratom is THAI not BALI...... I feel like Thai kratom releases more dopamine and, norepinephrine and adrenaline, but has less effect on the Mu opiod receptors. I have found tha Bali kratom goes down well with the tolerance I have, but thai kratom will give me horrible negative effects (extreme rage!) .They are very different things, according to my body at least. I am actually considering buying bali kratom just so that the negative side effects aren't so harsh, so that I can taper. Right now, taking about 8 grams a day (4 grams in the morning and 4 grams in the evening) seem like a good taper, but I don't want them to include the harsh effects that Thai kratom comes with,  so I may order some Bali and some Stem and vein powder tomorrow.


----------



## Opanaking

Podsnomo, your theory of a taper is right on. The whole deal is to come down when your tapering so that when you do stop you wont have as much withdrawal to go through. Really you dont want to get rid of withdrawal completely, you want to make it so that it's not intense and you can get through it without relapsing. Twice a day is a great idea, I would go down to dosing 3 times a day and have a really small mid day dose then eventually you just get rid of the mid day dose and your at twice a day. Then you need to make the decision if you want to get rid of your morning dose or your night dose. With more sedating stuff I would get rid of the morning dose and just have the night dose towards the end of the taper.   Then you will start taking away from one of those doses until your just left with dosing once a day. From there reduce the last dose slowly, then before you drop off completely skip one day, dose, skip one day, dose, skip 2 days, dose, skip 2 days, dose, then just quit. Based on how your feeling you can choose how far you want to take the last stage.

Another good thing you can start doing is separating your doses. Weigh them out and put them in bags ahead of time, then put your main stash away. This way you wont be tempted to just take a bunch when your feeling the withdrawal. As for the not sleeping at night, that's just something your going to have to go through for a little bit. Eventually your sleep will go back to normal, after all a little insomnia never killed anyone 

Good luck! Keep up with the outdoor activities and stay as busy as possible.


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## nancylynnsmith

I have used Kratom, every day for the last three years.   Most days, 2 or 3 times a day.  I quit about a month ago.  Now I'm a slug.  Depressed and the anxiety is ridiculous.  I'm trying to decide if I was just nuts and I need to get used to, "...this is as good as it gets..." or maybe I'll feel better later.  Ugh.


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## podsnomo

Oh, it gets better. Much better. After 3 years of anything it can take your brain/mind/body (and soul?) about 6 months to get back to feeling normal. A month is quite an achievement! Stay with it and you'll notice it getting better day by day, week by week, esp if you're exercising, eating well, and doing other healthy/fun things to help speed up your recovery process. 

Let us know if you want tips or suggestions. These fellers in this thread are awesome. 

And welcome to yet another newcomer to our thread, Nancy.

Peace,
podsnomo



nancylynnsmith said:


> I have used Kratom, every day for the last three years.   Most days, 2 or 3 times a day.  I quit about a month ago.  Now I'm a slug.  Depressed and the anxiety is ridiculous.  I'm trying to decide if I was just nuts and I need to get used to, "...this is as good as it gets..." or maybe I'll feel better later.  Ugh.


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## Beat It

nancylynnsmith said:


> I have used Kratom, every day for the last three years.   Most days, 2 or 3 times a day.  I quit about a month ago.  Now I'm a slug.  Depressed and the anxiety is ridiculous.  I'm trying to decide if I was just nuts and I need to get used to, "...this is as good as it gets..." or maybe I'll feel better later.  Ugh.



I'm in the same boat except I wasn't using as long but trust me you WILL start to feel better. It is just going to take time. If you read this thread you will see there's a lot of good information on how you can help speed up the progress. 

Basically by taking a kratom everyday you changed the chemistry in your brain and now your brain has to readapt to not having any outside chemicals coming in. It's a painful process but there's a lot of things you can do to help and I'll outline the simple ones.

1. If you are still experiencing any physical withdrawals I would go to the store and get some loperamide. I would take double or triple the recommended dose but you can only do this every other day, for obvious reasons.

2. Do some Cardio exercises. This will release endorphins which are the body's natural opiates. You will feel so much better.

3. Eat whole foods and eat often.

Glad your here with us nancy and hope you start feeling better soon.


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## andyn6990

Heya , Ive not been doin too bad i dabbled a bit last week a couple of times with some indo coz of the depression but still trying to stay strong though. It hasnt flaired up any physical withdrawals again which is good although before i was on bali when i was fully addicted its wierd because the bali i was taking felt so mourish ,it almost felt like my vendor was putting something else with it (i hope not), asiam i know what you mean about the different strains and there effects , when i was addicted to the bali i switched for a bit to an indo strain and it was a lot more energetic and was not giving me the warm opioid feeling that the bali was giving me . Ive also tried Thai  before and that was the most energizing strain ive tried , Ive been sober the last 3 days with no kratom but keep getting those annoying thoughts of using kratom in my head haha so im trying to stay strong and ignore the temptations!


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## podsnomo

Well, staying honest here, I cheated on my "taper" yesterday. I had one of those 9a.m. to 10p.m. days and had to take more than I planned to stay with it. Or, I FELT like I had to take more than my plan to stay with it. 

UGH! Man, Andy, 3 days seems like a long way to go for me, 'cause without it for more than few hours after the WDs start, I start feeling kinda crazy. 

I recall though that taking a normal, recommended dose of DXM plus a double dose of loperamide did wonders for WDs when I had them before, so I may need to get some AD pills and some cough syrup handy. It's the achy legs and anxiety that get me feeling nutso.

What have your symptoms been like andy? Are you just dealing with the mental cravings now, or both.

Keep fightin' the good fight brother!

pods



andyn6990 said:


> Heya , Ive not been doin too bad i dabbled a bit last week a couple of times with some indo coz of the depression but still trying to stay strong though. It hasnt flaired up any physical withdrawals again which is good although before i was on bali when i was fully addicted its wierd because the bali i was taking felt so mourish ,it almost felt like my vendor was putting something else with it (i hope not), asiam i know what you mean about the different strains and there effects , when i was addicted to the bali i switched for a bit to an indo strain and it was a lot more energetic and was not giving me the warm opioid feeling that the bali was giving me . Ive also tried Thai  before and that was the most energizing strain ive tried , Ive been sober the last 3 days with no kratom but keep getting those annoying thoughts of using kratom in my head haha so im trying to stay strong and ignore the temptations!


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## nancylynnsmith

Hey,

Thanks for responding to my post.  The reason I posted (a first in a forum) is that I started rationalizing about how taking Kratom was a fairly benign solution for depression and lack of motivation.  Even though it's expensive, I just figure it's worth it.  Great rationalizing, huh? I'm feeling pretty weak as far as resolve.  I can stand the withdrawal stuff.  It's the dullness I hate.  Thanks for being supportive.


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## andyn6990

Heya pods, yeah most the physical is over , im just struggling with the mental now ,i seem to have little good moments but then feel awfully flat and bored i think ive drained a  lot of my dopamine out , keep having the temptation to take some bali but keep fighting against it , ive been thinking about going to a low dose and tapering but everytime i try to taper i end up taking too much and getting high haha , something i have noticed actually is when i go a few days without the kratom the loose stools start again even if ive only taken a low dose a few days earliar, thats the only physicals im gettin apart from that its all just mental now. Andy!


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## andyn6990

Hi Nancy ,welcome to the thread everyone here is amazing and you will find lots of good info and stuff, im also goin through the depression aswell it sucks :-( ,Wot kind of kratom were you taking? I also started self medicating with the kratom due to my anxiety and depression issues ,Youve done amazing to be able stay off a whole month congrats


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## nancylynnsmith

Thanks Andy and pnm,

I remember when I quit smoking years ago, and before I did, I couldn't imagine life without a cigarette in my hand.  It was painful to even visualize it.  Now I can't imagine a cigarette in my hand.  Don't think about it, don't miss it, don't crave it except for once every ten years or so.  I'm hoping that I'll feel the same way about Kratom - just a distant memory.  But right now, I REMEMBER how great it was for me.  Like a custom made depression/anxiety/engergizer.  But I've taken the plunge - cold turkey, and I'm getting over the sleepless nights, shaky legs, shivers, etc. and I REALLY  want to feel good without it.  I took all kinds:  extracts, powder, enhanced.  I'm relatively settled in my career, so I could afford it, even though I could have easily spent that much money on a great vacation with my husband.   My only motivation to quit is that a good friend of mine, whose assessment of Kratom I trust, said that it wasn't really good for us to be taking it for this long, this often.  I don't know what harm it does, but it is expensive, and unregulated - so downing something for years and years without any feedback on the effects  is not too smart.  For all I know, I could have a giant hole in my stomach from some strange ingredient in Kratom.  Anyhoo,  I'm really fighting the urge to order a giant batch from my guy.  I'm telling myself that it's not really that bad, and if it enhances life that much, why not?  I know that that is pure bullshit, so thanks for listening.  I appreciate the feedback and support.  NLS


----------



## podsnomo

I'm with you on the cognitive dissonance. I do that too, thinking, well it's pretty benign, and it's not as costly as my pod habit, and I feel better on it. But I know I want to be totally sober. I'm in AA and even attending a step-study group, starting to work the steps, and I feel like a fraud, because I'm using. Even though it is relatively benign, it's a substance, and I want happiness in sobriety, and not having to rely on a substance. 

I'm bouncing around with the rationalizing, and I've got to get my head straight on this if I'm going to successfully taper. 
If I can't taper, I may try CT. 

Nancy, I know you're still struggling with the blahs (or worse) a month out. Are you exercising? Eating well? What are/aren't you doing to cobat it and what's your experience trying to deal with it?

I'm planning on a gym membership to shift my money to (LOTS less expensive though) and to shift my focus to. I've heard that 4-6 rigorous workouts a week is the equivalent of a strong antidepressant, only without the shitty side effects. I hope that's true. I know when I was in a workout routine a while back, while I was using and drinking (!), I felt a lot better. 

Anyhow, I hope you continue to feel better and better nancy.

Peace,
pnm 



nancylynnsmith said:


> Thanks Andy and pnm,
> 
> I remember when I quit smoking years ago, and before I did, I couldn't imagine life without a cigarette in my hand.  It was painful to even visualize it.  Now I can't imagine a cigarette in my hand.  Don't think about it, don't miss it, don't crave it except for once every ten years or so.  I'm hoping that I'll feel the same way about Kratom - just a distant memory.  But right now, I REMEMBER how great it was for me.  Like a custom made depression/anxiety/engergizer.  But I've taken the plunge - cold turkey, and I'm getting over the sleepless nights, shaky legs, shivers, etc. and I REALLY  want to feel good without it.  I took all kinds:  extracts, powder, enhanced.  I'm relatively settled in my career, so I could afford it, even though I could have easily spent that much money on a great vacation with my husband.   My only motivation to quit is that a good friend of mine, whose assessment of Kratom I trust, said that it wasn't really good for us to be taking it for this long, this often.  I don't know what harm it does, but it is expensive, and unregulated - so downing something for years and years without any feedback on the effects  is not too smart.  For all I know, I could have a giant hole in my stomach from some strange ingredient in Kratom.  Anyhoo,  I'm really fighting the urge to order a giant batch from my guy.  I'm telling myself that it's not really that bad, and if it enhances life that much, why not?  I know that that is pure bullshit, so thanks for listening.  I appreciate the feedback and support.  NLS


----------



## Beat It

podsnomo said:


> Well, staying honest here, I cheated on my "taper" yesterday. I had one of those 9a.m. to 10p.m. days and had to take more than I planned to stay with it. Or, I FELT like I had to take more than my plan to stay with it.
> 
> UGH! Man, Andy, 3 days seems like a long way to go for me, 'cause without it for more than few hours after the WDs start, I start feeling kinda crazy.
> 
> I recall though that taking a normal, recommended dose of DXM plus a double dose of loperamide did wonders for WDs when I had them before, so I may need to get some AD pills and some cough syrup handy. It's the achy legs and anxiety that get me feeling nutso.
> 
> What have your symptoms been like andy? Are you just dealing with the mental cravings now, or both.
> 
> Keep fightin' the good fight brother!
> 
> pods



Pods You gotta start maybe trying to space out those doses a little bit. It sounds like it's getting bad if you don't use it for a few hours WDs start... WD's probably shouldn't start for at least 24 hours, maybe your psyching yourself out. I've noticed there's a shitty feeling if you don't use for a few hours that is more of a hangover. That should go away and you will feel a little better and sober before the WD's start. How long are you going to give this taper thing until you try just going CT. The longer you stay on, the harder its gonna be. You've been such a great help buddy, I just want to see you dive in. You know what you gotta do.


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Hey PNM,

What is it we don't want to face?  Are we rationalizing because of some painful or even mildly irritating thing in our lives that we just don't want to look at face on? I have several ways of avoiding unpleasantness - booze, occasional vicodin, booze, kratom, Five Hour Energy, Xanax, crap food, kratom - WHATEVER.   Whatever is available and doable. I am so thinking of going to AA when I get back home (I've been on a month vacation in my NC house).  Don't be too hard on yourself for tapering.  But I can't taper.  Tapering to me is just one more way to avoid getting off.   I had a doctor about twenty years ago put me on methadone for migraines.  What an idiot.   I did taper off then.   It took me four months.  But kratom is so readily available that tapering was just putting it off for me. Anyway, I feel stronger today.  I think this thread helps and talking to my husband honestly about how addicted I was has helped.  Life is too short to be ruled by anything.   I really do want to be healthy, happy and substance-free.  Physical activity is going to save me I think.  I worked my ass off today, and I think it helped.  Take care.  N


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## nancylynnsmith

Dear PNM,

I did have about 30 Xanax when I went cold turkey.  I took one or two a day for awhile.  That may have helped.  But honestly, I did have insomnia, digestion problems, shaky legs, shivers and the blaaaahs.   It isn't easy, but there have been way harder things I've gone through.  CT was easier on me than tapering  - but I did have that Xanax if you can get any from your doctor. 
N


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## podsnomo

Thanks here and gratitude to Beat It (our awesome OP) and Nancy for bringing it to me. 

You're both right, and Nancy, you have some good insight. 

I'm basically doing with kratom what I did with the pods. When I quit drinking, I felt like I had made such a huge accomplishment (and I had) but I let that be my rationalization for using pods. Of course, I used pods moderately at first, and it slowly crept up on me. The kratom though, now that I've made another accomplishment by getting off the pods (one of the toughest opiates to quit), is more than sneaking up on me. It's steam-rolling me. I'm using more and more. I planned on my two larger doses rather than my 4 smaller ones today, but I took 3 larger doses, about 10g each. I did half n half of my generic kratom and maeng da twice, once at 9 a.m., and again at 2 p.m. Then I took about 11g of bali just an hour or so ago around 10 p.m.

So here's my idea now. Rather than CT, and rather than a soft taper, I'm going to do something in between. A hard taper. Rapid, if you will. 
Tomorrow a.m. I'll take some loperamide and a standard recommended dose of dxm. I had success with this reducing my symptoms in the past. Then,  I'll see how long I can go without dosing kratom, and will limit myself to 5g. I'll see how tomorrow goes and gauge what I can do from there.

I'll keep you guys posted and I'll appreciate you guys keeping me honest. I'm not talking to anyone IRL about kratom. I don't wanna. And I won't have to if I can get off kratom pretty quickly. 

I've been preaching what I ought to have been practicing. And well, I did practice it well during my 6 week pods taper, which was hell. I'm going to hope I can do this quick kratom taper in a week or two. 

Nancy, I do have some xanax in addition to my 1.5mg/day script for klonopin. What I did was switch to klonopin after I filled my last fill of xanax before needing to go back to the doc. That way I could say I'm just switching, but have the extra to help while I kick the kratom. But I've been taking my 1.5 mg k-pin a day and doing .5-1mg of xannies too. 

I need those extra xanax for the kratom quit when the anxiety is the worst because my 1.5mg klonipin is the same equivalent dose of xanax I've been on for years. So, my current script keeps me normal ON kratom. So, I need the extra while the WD anxiety is on me. 

Thanks again guys. Please, give me your thoughts on my plan-ish thing. I do wanna get clean now. And BTW, I've never abused my benzos, so I will consider myself sober when I get down to exactly what I'm prescribed. Then I'll consider myself clean after I wean/taper off the benzos under my doctor's care and direction.

My sponsor told me to just do exactly what my doctor said, because (referencing my pods) he said that I've been my own chemist/pharmacist for too long, and it's killing me. 

Now I gotta take the hard road. I've been looking for an easier softer way, but from AA I know that the results are nil until I let go absolutely.

Thanks again you guys. I love you all!

pnm


----------



## kickingkratom

Hey guys,

I know I haven't been on here in a while, and I haven't read up on the thread yet so I'm not sure what has been said.  I wanted to come back here and give you an update on my progress.  Suffice it to say, I have completely kicked a ~15g/daily, 4-month long kratom addiction.  All of my withdrawal symptoms are gone.  I wake up happy now, and look forward to normal things again.  I'm going to post something I posted on another forum, but I'll still stick around here if anyone wants to pm me/ask me things.

-Had a habit of ~10-15g of plain bali leaf a day
-Day 0: dropped down to 6-7g
-Day 1: dropped again to 4.5g
-Days 2-4: dropped to 3.5g
Withdrawal symptoms were becoming very apparent by this point. I chose to take a very steep taper (which honestly I wouldn't recommend) and I think the wds hit me much harder than they would with a moderate taper. Depression and anxiety are the worst at this point. Haven't had too much trouble with physical symptoms or getting to sleep.
-Day 5: down to ~2.5g
Symptoms are still bad/getting slightly worse. Everything is manageable but still just sucks.
-Days 6-8
These were without a doubt the worst days of withdrawal. I came so close to freaking out/asking my parents for help or something else stupid. Cravings were terrible and I was just filled with despair and anxiety. LUCKILY, on day 7 I managed to find some bud which really really helped me that night. It calmed me down and gave me some much needed good feelings. This was the only time I smoked during withdrawal but it definitely helped with nighttime boredom/sleeping.
-Days 9-14
Like I said, by this point the worst was over. I had ordered some phenibut and starting with Days 9 took 1500mg, Day 10 1000mg, Day 11 500 mg, Day 12 500mg, Day 13 nothing. I'm not sure how effective this was in alleviating the depression.anxiety symptoms but During these last few days I felt nearly normal and happy again, so my guess is that it did help.

And that's it. While I haven't had any cravings in at least 10 days, I do still think about kratom sometimes. Luckily I have none left and am easily able to stop myself from ordering more. My life is back to normal, and for anyone out there who is going through or is planning to go through what I have, just don't give up because I promise you it does get better. I know it's hard to keep a positive attitude like that when your in the thick of anxiety/depression symptoms, really. I know you'll feel hopeless and anxious and depressed and honestly you will have to deal with that. BUT, I also know that you will forget. You will forget what it's like to feel that shitty and your life will go back to normal, and it will make you happy again. I know that when i was in mid wds the things I really wanted to know was how people were doing 1-2 months after kicking, and hopefully this will give you some indication. I'm completely free of kratom and the withdrawal symptoms, I have forgotten the awfulness of the depression I went through, and I think I would consider this a success story. So good luck anyone else and I think I'll check on here from time to time so everyone else should feel free to post here/pm me if they need help.

Oh, and thank you everyone who came here and gave their support and shared their stories. I'm not sure I could have done this alone, and one of the things that helped me the most was reading other people's stories and talking to them, so thank you.


----------



## podsnomo

So I haven't started the quick taper I spoke of. That next day after, that I mentioned in my last post, I took the Dxm and lope in the morning and didn't need, or feel like I needed a dose for a good several hours. Then I took some that day, and that was supposed to be all, but my gf was having a party she planned the day before (!) and expected me to help her clean, so I dosed again, and then again before bed. That was yesterday. Today I had one 10g early, a 5g midday, and 6g just now. 

I need to be mentally prepared to go through with it, and I wasn't. So, now my plan is to tart tomorrow. I actually have time to weigh out some doses and write down my taper plan. I wanna be totally free, and yet I know I'm going to have to tolerate some feel-shitty as I go through it, and I'm being a damn wimp about it.

I need to get my head on straight! What happened to you guys, beatit, nancy? 
You guys still checkin' in?

Congrats on kicking, Kicking! I think I'll look at your taper and maybe make mine a bit smoother. 

Thing is, I don't seem to need the same amount everyday. I need less if I slept well, etc.

I gotta figure this out!

best to all,
pnm


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Hey PNM,

This is Nancy.  Still hanging in there.  I've thought several times about ordering more, but what keeps going on in my mind is that I think I want to face whatever it is that I use Kratom (and drinking) to avoid. I drink A LOT.   Almost every day.  But I'm rationalizing that I need to go CT one addiction at a time.  I found some AA meetings close to where I live in Austin, and I'll tackle that next.  My husband, however, is not an alcoholic like I am (I'm a highly functioning alcoholic), and doesn't think I need to stop.  But that's a whole other issue that is keeping me drinking. Anyway, I'm drinking again, almost every day - and so I'm kind of pushing the Kratom preoccupation to the back burner while I figure out what I'm going to do about my drinking.  There is obviously some underlying issues I need to face without drugs or drinks, and I'm cautiously optimistic that I'm strong enough to face them.  So PNM, I'm 'tapering' my drinking, so I know what you're facing.  I think maybe, at some point, we're going to have to dive off the high dive, without any of it, and just face stuff.  The wd's, the stuff we don't want to think about, etc.  But hang in there.  Really.  The Kratom thing is really hard, but you can do it.   You'll be really proud of yourself, and you'll save money, and your liver, and all the other unknowns that we're taking a chance with if we use Kratom.  Addiction is progressive.  I DO know that.  So don't give up!
NLS


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## ArtVandalay

^

If you go to one AA meeting and don't like it, don't give up, try another. I didn't dig the first NA meeting I attended, but went to a different one and liked it. If anything, you'll be surrounded by others in the same boat as you, and you won't feel all alone in the big, black sea that is addiction.


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## nancylynnsmith

Okaaaay  gentlemen!   Where are you!
Nancy


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## podsnomo

I'm struggling. I told my gf about my poppy pod habit. She had no idea. It's been over a month since I took any poppies, but the fact that I'd hid it from her for basically our whole relationship went over like shit. I didn't tell her about kratom. I'm trying to reduce my usage as much as I can. I only had one dose today and I'm not gonna take anymore today. If I can get through the night, my reasoning is I should be able to get through the next day, and the next. I'm sizing up my chances at making a CT run right now. I'm so tired of taking shit to feel "better" and want my sobriety to be absolute. 

If I can't get along well though, I'll take the smallest amounts possible in order to get through. I've heard that tiny amounts, like less than a gram, can alleviate WDs and help people get through a kick. 

I'm so sick of being a slave to shit. For years it was booze, then for a year after I got rid of booze (and during booze-days), poppy pods, and now a month after pods it's been kratom. I SO want to be free. I know I have to go through some shitty feelings for a while. I more than deserve it. Luckily that hard part isn't as long as the habit itself. I know I can do it. I just need to do it. Like it says in a new nook I got, "Living Sober", "Easy does it--but do it!"

Thanks for asking in on me Nancy. I know you got through it. And I know what you mean about 1 addiction at a time. It's either that or a 30-60 day rehab facility, which I can't afford. 

Will your husband understand if you tell him you think your drinking is a proble, even if he doesn't, and that you want to quit. If AA there is like it is here, you'll find it a very welcoming place with great people. The newcomer is always the most important person in the room. It's a simple program. I could tell you all about AA if you like. 

How's it coming with your drinking?

Take it easy Nancy.

Peace and love,
pnm


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Wow,
I'm relieved that you posted.   You and I are in the same boat.  I just want to deal with life on its own terms.  I don't want to numb myself with anything.  I think I used Kratom for energy and to alleviate boredom.   I do the same with drinking.  And to procrastinate.  I have a really stressful job, but I'm off in the summer.  Today, I've come this close to ordering a shitload of Kratom because I know that I'm going to have to start dealing with my job soon.  Grrrrrr.   I do have a question:  did your girlfriend not know anything about your various addictions?  You must be like me, pretty able to function like a normal person.  Was it a dealbreaker?  I hope she realizes that you are committed to a better life.   CT was just a lot easier for me with K, but , wow, I so can't quit drinking.   It's been a month without the Kratom, but I have to tell you, the psychological WD is worse than the digestive problems, insomnia, shakes, lack of energy etc - which I would have thought would be over by now (of course I took a LOT of Kratom for three years).    It's not having that 'boost' that I miss.  So I'm substituting booze.  When I go back to Austin on Wednesday, I'm going to have to fess up to my husband just how much I was drinking that he didn't know about.  He's going to miss drinking with me - but he only would have one or two.  I could drink a half a fifth every day.  So, he is NOT going to be supportive of AA maybe, but I really can't quit drinking and it has gotten worse over the last several years.  I went to AA when I was 24 and didn't drink for about fifteen years.  I'm making up for lost time.  

Just hang in there PNM.  Please!   I have to know that it can be done.   

Thanks,
N


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## podsnomo

Nance, it's amazing how similar our stories are. My gf knew of my alcoholism. It was pretty apparent through the first year+ or our relationship. Then I quit, had a meltdown, and went to an outpatient rehab program to help me sober up. I was successful in quitting drinking. At the same time, that first time I quit drinking, I quit the poppy pods too. Since I didn't know how much morphine and other alkaloids were in the pods, I didn't know how hooked I was, and I thought I was in for a rough road. It turned out that my poppy pod habit was so mild that I didn't have any serious WD symptoms. Just a little runs for a few days and some insomnia, which could have been partially from quitting drinking too. 

Anyway, then after my 2 weeks of that program I was off and running with AA. I was doing great. I wasn't drinking and felt better than ever, and since my pod WDs were so tiny, I figured I didn't have much of a problem with them and could keep using them "sometimes". Sometimes turned into everyday eventually and then every day turned into twice a day, then thrice, then upping my doses. By the time I realized I had a problem I was into them bad. I waited for my gf to go out of town, and tried a CT quit from them. Poppies are on of the hardest to WD from due to the host of alkaloids (unlike a refined pharm). I thgouth I had made it, and after she came back I was on day 5 of no pods and was so messed up from a lack of sleep and the WD symptoms were getting worse. I caved and made some tea from the poppy stems I had. This was weak tea, but it alleviated the symptoms. During that respite, I ordered another shipment of pods. and used the tea I made to stretch me to the next delivery.

I ordered 2 lbs, planning on this being enough to quit. After the order, the vendor emailed me to say their inventory person accidentally only shipped one pound and that they'd be sending another pound, with extra for the trouble, to make up for it. So I get my first shipment and it's a full 2 lbs. Then a couple days later I got the lb+. Well, yippee fucking skippy I thought! I could go wild-ass-monkey-shit with it and be as zoned out as I liked for a while and THEN start the taper, which is what I did. That was the last I ever ordered. 

Anywho, so my gf knew of the drinking, but the whole pod adventure above, she knew nothing of until I told a few days ago after being clean from them for about a month. And of course she knows about my addiction to cigarettes and to my morning coffee, if you can call that real addiction. 8)

And yes, I am like you. I have been able to function just fine with whatever addiction(s) I have or had. I was a pretty hardcore alky and managed to earn 3 degrees, including a doctorate. At the height of my drinking before I quit, I'd kill 4-6 beers and up to 3/4 of a fifth of bourbon. On a big party day, I could drink the equivalent of 40 drinks or so. Wow. Loks crazier when I type it! 

I have to disagree with you on one thing: you SO CAN quit drinking. With your amounts, you'd do well to have some benzos around in case the DTs started, or get medical help. 

You say your husband will miss drinking with you, though he only has one or two? If he loves you then when you tell him you feel like you're in trouble and have a problem with booze, he should definitely support your wishes. Maybe he likes being with you when you're toasted? I think you may have a lot to look into in this area, as we all do. Esp with your alluding to not facing things through use of booze and other substances, again, as we all do. 

You seem sure he won't be supportive of AA. People come around on things, esp when they start to see great positive changes. Even my gf, who wanted me to quit drinking, had all kinds of reservations about AA, like that it was a cult, or too religious, etc. But there's nothing religious about it. It's spiritual. 

Religion is for people who don't wanna go to hell. Spirituality is for people who've been there. We've been there. Give him time, and don't do a hard sell. Attend some meetings, get some phone numbers. If he's willing to go to al-anon, great. If not, nothing for you to push. You need to work a program, and if he wants to help himself and you with the whole thing, it's only up to him. 

You know, you say you're substituting booze for K, but man, coming off booze was like a kilo of K for me, only natural. Once you get past the fog of the first few days, you start waking up with this odd realization that you don't feel like shit. Whoa! So, IMHO, if you could knock that booze out and get into a program, I'd put good betting money on you feeling better than ever pretty quick. And the program is important, because if you quit, it's that feeling SO SO much better that makes you feel like it's OK to drink again. 

It can be done. I'm on the journey and in my program I know all kinds of people who were way further over the edge than you or I and they have gotten sober. And it's true as it says in the Big Book, they have been rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence that they never knew existed nor thought possible. That's what I'm after. And as they tell me (and the BB says) if you want what we have and are willing to go to any lengths to get it then you are ready to take certain steps. These steps are the 12 they refer to, and even though my success is only partial at present, I cannot recommend this program enough. It just works if you work it. And it's simple. That doesn't mean it's easy, just, simple. 

It CAN be done. I see it daily. I want off the K and you want away from the drink, and we've both been in both boats, and other boats, and we may be in lots of boats, but there is a solution. 

The BB is online. 
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm
It often describes alcoholics different from us, the ones who do all the going to ail and hospitals and all that. That made me think I wasn't a real alcoholic. But the fact that I can't (couldn't) control my consumption (esp when I already had a few) and many other factors make me sure I'm alcoholic. 

If you haven't ever, or even if you have several times, read the Doctor's Opinion and then the first several chapters or so. 

Let me know what you think.

Keep on keepin on.
Easy does it, but DO it!

Love and peace,
podsnomo


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## nancylynnsmith

Dear PNM,

Thanks, thanks, thanks.   I am obsessed with ordering Kratom, and really worried about going back to Austin and falling into ALL my old habits.  It would just be really easy, and I'm a really outstanding rationalizer.  I am going to read and re-read your post and process it again, but I just wanted to let you know that I sense a kindred spirit who talks sense and that I really appreciate you taking the time to post.  For some reason, that is keeping me from ordering that shitload of Kratom, going to the liquor store to stock up, and dreading what I know will be a hard thing to do when I go back to Austin.  I'll check back in soon.  Thank a lot.

Love and peace right back,
Nancy


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## podsnomo

You're welcome, and I'm looking forward to hearing more when you from you when you get back (or sooner). 
Getting sober is actually no THAT hard. It's staying sober. That's the trick. 
As far as you are from your last kratom dose, just stay on the road, and it'll keep getting better until you won't need it anymore or even think about it. 

Thanks for you kind words. I think we are kindred spirits indeed.

Best to ya 
pnm


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## Ninae

slayerhatesusall said:


> and I don't really see why not, its really cheap and I'm not exactly strapped for cash, and it makes me feel good enough so I can actually get stuff done and isn't dangerous.
> 
> Hah. It's cheap NOW that your tolerance is low. Soon you can only get high from UEI and soon enough you need that in doses as large as regular Kratom. I.e. £100 a week. And soon that doesn't work either. ("Soon" being relative and might take a few years, but still happens).


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## slayerhatesusall

Ninae said:


> slayerhatesusall said:
> 
> 
> 
> and I don't really see why not, its really cheap and I'm not exactly strapped for cash, and it makes me feel good enough so I can actually get stuff done and isn't dangerous.
> 
> Hah. It's cheap NOW that your tolerance is low. Soon you can only get high from UEI and soon enough you need that in doses as large as regular Kratom. I.e. £100 a week. And soon that doesn't work either. ("Soon" being relative and might take a few years, but still happens).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would never use extracts unless they were free samples though since they are way overpriced and tolerance is built up to them way too quickly compared to plain leaf, over 100 british pounds a week seems insane to be spending on it, if my tolerance to leaf powder got too high I would either use stem and vein powder or switching strains or dxm to try to lower the tolerance or just taper off of it. Even when I got a pretty big tolerance to the kratom I didn't spend more then $2 a day on it.
Click to expand...


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## Ninae

It doesn't really matter what you do, it still stops working, so you either have to quit or upgrade to ecstracts (Full Spectrum Tincture and UEI being the only extracts worth it, though overpriced, but easily available).


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## podsnomo

Ninae said:


> It doesn't really matter what you do, it still stops working, so you either have to quit or upgrade to ecstracts (Full Spectrum Tincture and UEI being the only extracts worth it, though overpriced, but easily available).



All addictions run this course. All addictions are progressive. For some, it may be years and years before it progresses. For some, progression may mean an increasing dependence on the doses more than an increase in frequency or dosage. For almost all that dabble in addictive substances though, it eventually gets you. I went from about 20-25 drinks/day to being alcohol abstinent, but continued my light use of poppy pods at that time, and then the pods snuck up on me, from a teaspoon a day in the mornings, to twice daily, then thrice, and then I started upping those doses. My desire to get nice and high off the pods was almost never successful, but I kept chasing those wonderful warm feelings I had the first few times I dosed aggressively. Then I was up to about $100-150/week of pods! Fuck this, I thought, and went through hell coming off them. 

Alcohol started and went the same way, from being something "fun" I did at night, to being something I couldn't keep from doing at night. And it quit working; even when I was drunk as a skunk I wasn't pleased with it. On the contrary, the feelings I would try to drink away eventually started getting worse when I drank, and I'd find myself up and drinking in the middle of the night, screaming at the mirror. I was truly insane.

Now I seem stuck on the kratom. I have lots of rationalizations. Lots. But I know it'll quit working, eventually, and needing more is already beginning. With my next order, which I tell myself will be what I use to taper, I am getting a little bag of some enhanced stuff, but now I'll consider flushing that shit. If it ups my tolerance in a go or two, then I'll be in worse shape much faster. Fuck!

I need to quit kratom! The next day I have off from work I'm going to make an excuse to be alone that day, which will be easy; I have lots of work to do looking for a better job. Anyway, on that day I'm going to not dose in the morning, and wait and see how bad the WDs get. When they get bad, I'm going to take 45mg dxm and 2 or 3 doses worth of loperamide. If this gets me through, and my ambien, valerian, and melatonin cocktail allow me to sleep, I may be on my way to a successful CT quit. If not, I'll use a gram of kratom at a time, 30 minutes apart, until the WDs are tolerable. Then I'll know the baseline for my taper. 

This is like my third fucking plan, and I'm growing impatient with myself. It's a good sign, really, that I'm getting the same gumption I had when I got the will (with the help of my higher power) to do that miserable-feeling poppy pod taper. 

Anyhow, I hope to be free some day soon, and I wish all of you the best. 

Nance, you back in Austin yet? How are you doing with it all?
If you caved, don't be ashamed, just post.

Love and peace,
podsnomo/pnm/pods/whatever-you-wanna-call-me


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## Ninae

Keep in mind Kratom is weak and tolerance rises fast. It's less effective than synthetic Opiates and not really worth the money. But it's legal and easily available if you can afford it. 

But it keeps many people from getting into more serious trouble with Opiates and it's made illegal there will be many doing much more harm to themselves and society in general. 

The withdrawals are really nothing. Some really bad mood and mild physical symptoms for about 5 days. Less than 1/3 of the withdrawal from real Opiates.


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## nancylynnsmith

Ugh! 
Podsnomore.  Ugh, ugh, ugh.  Not truly miserable, not truly euphoric.  I guess that's the most uncomfortable place to be for me - thus the booze,the Kratom - if I'd known about poppy pods, I'm sure I would have tried that - good thing I didn't know about that .   I don't know when I began to think that real life was so boring and depressing.  In 1995, I got a migraine that wouldn't go away. That was the beginning I guess.  I ended up hospitalized and on the verge of suicide- even though my husband and I had four young kids - if the headache couldn't be treated.  Then I went to a neurologist who put me on methadone (I hardly ever took anything stronger than BC powder or Tylenol before that).  METHADONE!  Wow.  After years of headache treatment, I was truly friends with painkillers.  So long story - short:  I got off all the vicodin, percocet, methadone etc., but I never got over that chase for the opiate high.  Thus, the Kratom addiction starting three years ago.  I'd been off regular painkillers for years. But a LEGAL and easy to get way to get that brain stroking?   GREAT!   And in the meantime, combining booze and kratom allowed me to avoid anything I didn't want to deal with - in other words - real life.  I forget how to simply BE - and I'd done a pretty good job of just BEING for many years.  Now I have to BE but with a KICK.   UGH UGH UGH without a kick. 

So, anyway, PNM, you're giving up your last kick. No wonder it's hard and scary.  I'm giving up my last one too - booze.   So okay.  Here we go.  Thank goodness that both of us have experienced feeling improvement after giving stuff up.  I guess we really need to hang onto that.  If you try to go CT, what's the worse that can happen?  You relapse.   You seem like the kind of person who would get impatient with yourself after a certain number of relapses.  People who are accomplished and used to success (even if it's not in every part of their lives) are fortunate enough to know how doing good things makes us feel good.   What would AA say about tapering off Kratom?  I read the Doctor's Opinion in the BB link you put up.   Allergy seems to be a pithy way of identifying that broken gene that allows us to rationalize while at the same time reacting to opiates and booze differently than 'normal' people.  Tapering to me would just make me want to scratch that itch more.  But I totally understand why you are tapering.  I drank last night, this morning and I'm planning on drinking tonight because we're all going out for a 'back to Austin' dinner.   I'm sitting here waiting for my daughter to leave for an appt. so I can drink some Mike's hard lemonade (as silly a drink if there ever was one).  But, like you, it doesn't get me where it used to.  Now I get depressed drunk instead of happy drunk.  How obnoxious.  

When I go back to Austin, I'm not drinking anymore.  I found a place close to home that has multiple meetings, and I have begun to ease my husband into the idea that I'm going to do what I have to do to stop drinking.  It's going to be hard for him, but he loves me. Hopefully, when he sees me happier and healthier, he'll become a believer.  He doesn't need to stop drinking, but me not drinking is going to be a change for him.   We'll just have to wait and see.

PNM, I know what it's like to finally realize you're going to have to give up that last thing. It's hard, but I think we're doing our usual brilliant rationalizing if we think that that last thing isn't going to be a REAL barrier to living a great, sober, happy, healthy life.  We can't keep trading one thing for another.  DO NOT GIVE UP.  We are both so close.  

I don't know you from Adam's housecat, but I do know that, for some reason, it's important to me that you keep moving forward, even if it's only an millimeter at a time.   

Peace, love and sobriety - Nancy


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## slayerhatesusall

Ninae said:


> It doesn't really matter what you do, it still stops working, so you either have to quit or upgrade to ecstracts (Full Spectrum Tincture and UEI being the only extracts worth it, though overpriced, but easily available).
> The withdrawals are really nothing. Some really bad mood and mild physical symptoms for about 5 days. Less than 1/3 of the withdrawal from real Opiates.


I used kratom for about 3 months every day in a row and didn't build much of a tolerance to it, except when I started using double doses, when I did that the tolerance went up really fast and I switched to green malay for a few weeks and tapered with it, then after a month or so I took a bali dose my bali tolerance was much lower and got great effects off it, but decided to finish the taper and stop taking it every day. After the first month of taking it daily I started taking about 150mg dxm every few days and it seemed to help alot in preventing the tolerance from building up quickly. There are ways to reduce tolerance like I said, you using extracts because the powder stopped working is a terrible idea since it just raises tolerance even more and they will stop working eventually and the withdrawals will be much, much worse. I would not say the withdrawals are really nothing at all, after about 2 months of using it the postal worker forgot to deliver the package and I went a day without it, and it was horrible. Nothing to take lightly whatsoever. And the withdrawals last more then just 5 days, even after tapering off of the kratom the withdrawals weren't completely gone until after 15 days or so and the withdrawals were really bad for the first week. I could only imagine how long they would last and how bad they would be if I didn't taper off of it.


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## maryjanedoe

Wow...very similar stories to mine.  I pretty muched kick my drinking habit,but replaced it with hydros and poppy seed tea.  Been going on for a couple of years.  Thought about switching to Kratom, but never had same effect on me as lortabs and pst.  But never was sure about the dosage.  So, my question, is it easier to come off pst or Kratom?  I figured I might as well taper off of pst than add Kratom to the mix....any suggestions?  Thanks!


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## nancylynnsmith

Pooooooooodddddddddddddsssssssssssnooooooooooooooomorrrrrrrrrrre!

So, I'm 30,000 feet up, wondering where you are and if all is well.   I'm going back and forth with getting a jack and coke or three, but I don't want my husband to smell it on my breath!!!      Still Kratom clean.  Feeling optimistic!   What is up PNM?


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## nancylynnsmith

PNM,

Great victory here on the way back to Austin.  I let that cart go right on by.  I am proud of myself.    Are you okay?

Nancy


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## rightlaws

maryjanedoe said:


> Wow...very similar stories to mine.  I pretty muched kick my drinking habit,but replaced it with hydros and poppy seed tea.  Been going on for a couple of years.  Thought about switching to Kratom, but never had same effect on me as lortabs and pst.  But never was sure about the dosage.  So, my question, is it easier to come off pst or Kratom?  I figured I might as well taper off of pst than add Kratom to the mix....any suggestions?  Thanks!


 I've used the kratom (the uei stuff) as a tool for lessening the wd's from opiates, but have never considered mixing them. From what I have read from other threads, poppy tea wd's are, or can be as debilitating as those from the "harder" opiates. Having experienced opiate wd's more times than I'd like to remember (including suboxone), my advice to you is when it comes to the point when you do decide to quit your opiates, use kratom just during the wd's.  It really helps getting through, and once they subside, you can easily quit the kratom w/o developing a habit for it. (there's not really a lot of effective drugs that you can take for opiate wd's that's as benign as kratom is, or as effective)...


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## podsnomo

Sorry Nance. I went all incognito on you there. Last I'd told you, I think, I had told my gf about my poppy pods habit. Things have been kind of tough since then. I drank a couple of the nights before I told her and a couple nights since. Made me feel like such shit. Then yesterday, I was just dying for something, something to make me feel better. I was searching on the internet for shit like how to deal with emotional pain and so on. I really thought she was going to dump me. She's SO angry. And it sucks. What was killing was the little things, like if I'd call her shed answer with this tone like I was the embodiment of all that was shite in life. 

Anyway, I don't know how, but I came across meditation in my searches, and the most meditation I'd done was sitting quietly trying to let go of my thoughts and let my head clear, not knowing or having ever even read it about it. I came across guided meditation. I found an hour-long video on youtube that was basically a CD put to a picture. I plugged my laptop in, laid down on my back, pressed play, closed my eyes and.... my life was changed.

Since I had drank a couple nights in a row, I was having a hard time with idea of going back to not drinking anymore. Except in the mornings. In the morning I'd feel like such shit I'd look forward to not drinking that night, but as the day wore on that would slowly change. Anyway, this meditation, which I listened too again last night as I went to sleep, and again today after my morning work, is really changing my life. It already has in a major way. And then I went on TPB and got some other meditation stuff. 

I'm telling you Nancy, and the rest of you FWIW, this PARTICULAR guided meditation fit right in with my concept of a higher power, seemed to speak just to me. This was no accident. Something far greater than myself is at work here. Something put that in my life when I needed it. I have no "religion" and don't believe in anything that is taught in any church, (except UU) but I'm now comfortable just using the word god, because the actuall explanation is infinitely long and still incomplete. So I don't try to explain it. 

Last night I went over to my gf's place for a while to talk, and if I hadn't done that meditation earlier in the day, I would have been a basket case, would have likely said all kinds of mean shit, but I was peaceful and content. And after listening to it last night and going to bed sober, I feel like a new person. Ad I listened to it again this morning around lunchtime, which led me into a little nap at the end of it, and I awoke feeling more good feelings. 

I'm not off the kratom yet, but I find myself forgetting I'm even hooked on it. I went over to my gf's place last night and forgot to take what I would have normally taken for the afternoon, and when I began to feel bad from not taking it, I lifted my thoughts ti somewhere else. Somewhere perfect and eternal. I could no have done that previously.

So, I feel quit confident now in being able to taper off the kratom by attending to my spiritual condition through meditation and "prayer". And by eating well, sleeping better, and taking better care of myself in general. I know it's going to be tough, but that no longer frightens me the way it used to. 

I wish I could write more. Nancy, PM me if you think you might want to try this meditation and I'll send you the link. Or if you already used your 1 pm every 36 hours or whatev it is for greenlighter's, just request I pm you from here. I'll be back to checking in more often. 

I'll write more later and respond with my thoughts bout what you've said as soon as I can. Hang in there Nancy! 

Peace and love,
pnm 



nancylynnsmith said:


> Pooooooooodddddddddddddsssssssssssnooooooooooooooomorrrrrrrrrrre!
> 
> So, I'm 30,000 feet up, wondering where you are and if all is well.   I'm going back and forth with getting a jack and coke or three, but I don't want my husband to smell it on my breath!!!      Still Kratom clean.  Feeling optimistic!   What is up PNM?


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## asiam

well wow, I am truly touched by the support system that this forum has turned into. There are some really beautiful posts here. I've been on vacation to see family the last 9 days and have not touched kratom, but I have had that suicidal feeling in me the whole time, which I know is withdrawal and partly a build up of the depression I've ran from. I'm reading that some of you have or had problems with alcohol, and I too have been substituting alcohol for the boredom / apathy / in between feelings-feeling that the absence of mood-altering substances reveals.

Now I am back from vacation, and I'll admit, the kratom is tempting! This is day 11, and the thing that keeps me from touching the kratom ends up being a very simple thing: sleep! I'm having REAL sleep now, which took about 7 days off of kratom to get to. I find one dose of kratom will mess up the quality of my rest for a whole week, and I'm really enjoying using sleep as a hiding place (along with alcohol, caffeine, food.. one at a time, I guess). I have found that focusing on one short term, concrete negative symptom of usage keeps me away better than all else.

Oh and dude, anybody else gaining tons of weight upon trying to quit substances? One of the attractions to kratom for me was its weight loss effect, and now I'm just going out of control crazy on food, and feel very fat... Time for exercise but wondering if anybody is transferring anything to food addiction?


Peace, all. I am going to catch up on these posts tomorrow, but time for some of that good quality sleep now...


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## nancylynnsmith

Hey PNM (and all),

What a relief to hear from you!  I was worried that you'd gone on some kind of bender and didn't want to post any more.  I am so glad to hear from you!   I'm really glad the meditation is working for you.   During my many sleepless nights, I've tried deep breathing, listening to my Spanish tapes (I'm learning to speak Spanish), and an audio of something really boring, like the book of Leviticus in a dry, monotonous voice.  Nothing worked so I've been downing Nyquil.  I'm going to ease off that and go for melatonin/valerian combo soon.


Anyway,   I'm glad it was so good for you.  I've always had a hard time simply emptying my mind.  I don't know about the PM - how to do that - but I would like a link.  Something I remember reading about meditation really made an impression on me.  In an article about Aung San Su Kyi, the Burmese opposition leader who was under house arrest for years and years, she said meditation was the only thing that kept her sane.  I've never forgotten that.  Since I'm a practical person, that made an impression on me as far as thinking about meditation as a sanity tool.  

I feel so good.  I guess it's because I'm doing something I didn't think I could really do.   Today and yesterday and day before, I didn't drink.  My husband seems to be okay with it.  He doesn't know that I plan on going to AA yet, but I'll fall off that bridge when I come to it.  I truly feel more optimistic than I have in years.  I feel healthy even though I can't sleep and still have digestion (read 'the runs') problems like crazy.  I just really feel healthier because I'm not looking to scratch every itch I have.

I'll post more later. ASIAM, stick in there.  This thread has made a difference to me, having some kind of accountability to PNM or connection.   Anyway, don't give up.

Love to all,
Nancy


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## podsnomo

Glad to hear from everyone and that this thread is touching so many of you, that touches me. And that's a bg deal for someone like me who is touched ;-)

A bit of a roller coaster here. My gf is still really mad, and just out of sorts over everything. Short backstory for those who are just tuning in, I recently told her about an opiate problem I had the whole time we were together, which I quit almost a month and a half ago. 

Now she's gotten this really bad "gut feeling" about a new job I'm trying in financial services. It's not like anything I've ever done, and that's the excuse she gives for it freaking her out. I think, and my sponsor thinks (and he's usually right) that she's reacting in part to my asserting myself in my life like I'd never have done when I was so numb from the alcohol and pods or just the pods. First, she was really mad, which is fine. She's entitled to be mad. I humbled myself and apologized as sincerely and givingly as I could. That's the best I can do right now. I told I'd be happy to talk about anything anytime. I told if there was anything I could do to help her or just help things between us in general for her to let me know. 

Well, then we had some good time together. I went over and brought her food one night, and the next night we watched our favorite show together. Then the next day she got furious with me in the middle of the day. I know she's still raw about it, but that swing from feeling like everything is getting better to knowing she's mad and judging me again tears me up. It made me want to cry, scream, and it made me want to get reeeaallllyyy drunk. And that made me realize how tenuous my sobriety is right now, albeit tainted by the kratom.

And back to the kratom.... I don't get much of a buzz off of it anymore, and I'm refusing to take higher doses. I also am not sure I can stretch what I've got until I can order again when I get paid Thursday. This was going to be last order when I got it. Now, I'm thinking I'll need more. I'm lacking the will and resolve to quit it.

quitting drinking was hell. quitting poppy pods was hell to the 4th power. And I know quitting kratom would be lots less hellish, but Nancy you're right what you said about kicking your last kick and going on with nothing (besides coffee, cigs, masturbation, food, and maybe sex if things work out with the gf). So where does one draw the line. Some of the guys in AA will say you're not truly sober until you get off ALL mind/mood altering substances, including anything prescribed by your doctor (like a pretty low dose of klonopin for anxiety), including even allergy pills, OTC sleep aids and such. 

Part of me feels damn sober, compared to where I was. But if I quit kratom, am I sober since I still take 1.5mg klonopin/day and 10mg ambien for sleep at night? Or am I only truly sober once I've gotten off ALL that. Then am I sober if I use coffee and smoke cigarettes still? Do I need to be monk who only eats plain white rice, the occasional broccoli floret, and denies himself all earthly pleasures? Of course not!

But finding that balance is a true challenge, both on the path to sobriety and on the path that begins with sobriety. 

Nancy, you should tell your husband why you want to attend AA. Actually I'd like to know. To stop and keep stopped from drinking? To fellowship with others who share your problem? To find peace in sobriety? (These are all good reasons  You needn't push him to accept it or worry too much if he does, esp not at first. He'll eventually see that by doing what is best for yourself is also best for him and the two of you as a pair, and ultimately for everyone who knows and loves you both. 

That's most of it for now. 

More soon. I'll PM you a link Nancy.

Warmest regards,
pnm


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## podsnomo

Oh, and asiam, congrats on so many kratom free days. Sounds like you're out of the woods on that front. One at a time indeed! I wonder why you quit the kratom first and not the alcohol. ?  You must not be the kind of drinker I was. If you're just using a couple drinks here and there, then I'll try not to worry about you too much. Just keep a vigilant eye out. If your drinking starts creeping up, then there it is, cunning, baffling and powerful. 

And I know what you mean about food and stuff. I find that when I crave, sometimes I just crave something, anything. Food, ice cream, orgasm, cigarette, to punch someone in the face HARD... Those are easy things. More difficult, and admittedly less common for me, is to respond to those cravings with something healthier: walk the dog, exercise, clean something, read a book, and stuff like that.

The bottom line, I believe, for anyone who's a true addict, is that we must find a spiritual solution to our physical malady. And not religion, that's for people who don't wanna go to hell. Spirituality, that's for people who've been there. I been there peeps!

So I pray/meditate/whatever, and ask the Invisible Everything for the strength to make the right choices, to be useful to others, to be humble. I say the serenity prayer: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and wisdom to know the difference. 

Sometimes I say that a hundred times in a row when I'm really goin nuts. Anyway, starting to ramble, and I gotta send Nancy that PM I just promised her. I think I'll have a bowl of ice cream and THEN walk my dog ;-)

Love and peace,
podsnomo/pnm/pods


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## nancylynnsmith

Hey PNM,

I think one of the reasons I sense a kindred spirit is that you have the same 'itch' that you feel compelled to scratch - the craving - for WHATEVER - that HAS to be satisfied that I do.  We just usually take 'the easier softer way' most of the time.   I haven't given up all my kicks yet - just the big, artificial ones (booze, kratom), but I'm taking them one at a time. The other stuff I take, zoloft (100mg) a day for mental health, the allergy pills/nyquil to sleep, I don't consider 'kicks.'  I consider them truly medicinal - just like insulin.  I know my brain needs zoloft - through a lot of trial and error.  Because of sleep problems related to female hormone changes - I need the sleep help.  Don't you think we know what is recreational 'kick' and what is really just necessary? I think it's unwise of AA to really say we can't do ANYTHING.  I deep down know what I use to divert my attention and provide that boost or 'scratch.'   So, even though we are great rationalizers, I think the path we're on will lead us to honesty about what we use or abuse.   You've done really, really well with the pods and booze.  When you're ready, you'll get rid of the Kratom.  Don't think about all the other crap yet.  


I hope your girlfriend can start to focus on the fact that you're trying your best to be the best man you can be instead of feeling betrayed.  My first husband kept a big lie from me for years, and honestly, though it was a much more destructive lie than pods or kratom, it took me awhile to get over the shock and the feeling of 'who is this person that I knew nothing about?"   Once I got over the shock, it was easier to go back to feeling like I could trust ME in knowing that I KNEW who it was I'd been married to for years.   It made me wonder what the hell was wrong with me that I didn't see my husband honestly.  Maybe she's feeling that as well.  Mad at herself mainly because she thought she knew everything about you - because you're intimate with one another.

Just give her some time and continue to be honest with her.  Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated over and over again in soundbite form:  'This can only be good for our relationship."  over and over.

Keep it up.  I'm hanging in there.  Trying to find a way to respond to the ITCH in some kind of healthy way - exercise, sex, reading, talking to friends, studying etc.   I'm in the process of trying to find more and better ways to get that boost - or be happy without it.

So, off to AA tomorrow.   

Love,
N


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## podsnomo

Good for you Nance, and thanks for the encouragement and kind words. I should be clear, it's not everyone in AA that thinks people need to be off of everything, including OTC sleep meds, etc. It's just some of them. Most of them, IME, feel that if you're not having your lunch eaten by something like booze or opiates, you're doing well. My sponsor doesn't worry about my scripts for klonopin and ambien. He just tells me to take them exactly as prescribed because for too long I was my own chemist/pharmacist. My experiences with drinking as hard as I did for as long as I did, then quitting drinking, then getting hooked on pods...all that have been along one path towards a better, more fully realized ME. 

I told my gf a couple nights ago that I needed some distance from here, some space, because I couldn't handle the feeling like things were OK one minute and then her being furious with me the next. But, in fact, I did something that would make anyone angry, and I need to learn to respond to her hurt feelings and her anger with compassion, sympathy and support to the extent of my ability, and not let her anger just make me feel hurt.

We had a good couple of nights. Though I've not stayed at her place since I told her, we "got friendly" one night, and the next night watched our TV show. Then the next day she was all upset and mad again. That's when I got all churned up inside and felt like I needed a drink, badly. But I got through that. And didn't drink, thank god. 

The katom, I just don't know right now. It's comforting to hear you say that when I'm ready I'll get rid of it, but I don't want to tread water. I suppose I'm looking for that easier softer way. I know I'll get rid of it, but how long? I need to order some today. Like, now, and can only order a bit, just to get me to payday. Even then, I may go broke for a day or two if an expense arises. I'm getting tired of needing it, or wanting it, or whatever. I often think I'll try and go the next day without, or just with a tiny bit, but then I wake up with chills and sweats and tummy woes. So I take a normal-for-me dose (about 8-10g) and I get my energy, feel good, and am ready to go. Prior to that, I don't know how I'm going to be able to get everything done I need to get done in a day. 

Anyway, let me know how your first meeting goes. And remember, if you don't like a meeting, there always others, unless you live far from an urban area. My city has TONS of meetings and I can find one quickly whenever I want. I hope you have a great experience your first go. If you are serious about it, you should look for a sponsor. It's important, but don't rush into a sponsor you don't click with. Just find one soonish. 

Let me know Nancy, and to all you reading this thread, chime in with how you're doing with kicking kratom, and other things. If you're lurking, just sign up and post. We'll be kind, we promise!

Peace,
pods (no more)


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## nancylynnsmith

Hey PNM,

So much going on, right?  You didn't drink  Well done.  All these feelings that get churned up - whether mildly annoying or downright shite, really made me drink. So Bravo.  I wouldn't freak out about Kratom right now.  Really.  I'm not just saying that.  If the Kratom made you want to indulge in the other stuff (just like 'feeling great' sometimes causes people to drink) like your pods and a drinking bender, then, yeah, it needs to be dealt with RIGHT NOW.   But I really do get the sense that when you're ready - you will.

So, first AA meeting.  What I discovered is that I'm stuck at the dash of STEP ONE:  Yes, I DO KNOW that I'm powerless over alcohol, but I really don't think my life's unmanageable.  I am a steady, quiet drunk.   I can drink a half a fifth and still carry on a conversation in which it appears that I'm only slightly tipsy. I CAN DRINK ALL DAY.  Morning to night.  When I was young I went wild.  I'd drive drunk, dance on tables, jump in fountains - classic twenties shenanigans.  Now, I can stay home and drink all day.  I don't drive drunk.  I don't start fights in bars.  I don't really do anything I wouldn't normally do anyway.  I come from a long line of bona fide Scottish, high functioning alcoholics. So I'm stuck thinking I only need AA Lite.  

Thanks for checking in.

Love,
N


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## podsnomo

Thank you Nancy.

I think you're right. I am truly making progress in AA, a lot of spiritual progress. And I got honest with my gf about the poppy pods, which sucked and I am still dealing with consequences there. I just have to trust that I did the right thing, because secrets keep us sick. The kratom doesn't make me wanna drink or do anything else. If it weren't for the deal of having to some more WDs I'd drop it like it was calculus as an elective. I just don't like that I still have THIS secret. She was so devastated, and continues to be, by the fact that I kept the pods from her for our whole relationship. That night when I told her she asked me, tears in her eyes, exasperated, "Is there anything else?" "No," I said. And honestly, at the time, I wasn't even thinking of the kratom. 

I PMed you a little thing about step one, specifically the unmanageability. I had the same reaction; actually I didn't even think I was powerless over alcohol, because after all, I decided to quit, and I did. The thing was, without help, without my AA brothers, it is too much for me. So, alone, I am powerless. And I thought I was managing fine. I have a doctorate, wasn't working full time (but that was b/c/ of no jobs, not my fault). What I learned I wasn't managing was my inner life. I was sad most of the time. I had negative attitudes toward lots of people/places/things that didn't deserve all that negativity. I couldn't manage the inner-me, that is, I could only manage to get through and feel alright, sort of, by drinking away the feelings/thoughts/reactions/emotions that I'd been tamping down with beer and booze for two decades. 

It's OK if you only feel you need AA lite. But if you are an alcoholic like me, or even an alcoholic not like me, just an alcoholic at all, then I beg of you for your sake and all those you love to do this: Just remain willing to be willing and keep an open mind. That's all. In time, you will either find that you are not a real alcoholic, or that you are. Thing is, very few of my AA brothers and sisters thought they were alcoholic, and just as many, including me, said the same thing about unmanageability. That said, again, you might not be an alcoholic. Listen to this guy's story either way. It's quite funny, and he's a wonderful man. I've met him even! http://www.aaspeakers.org/Burns_B-f...he_1994_Huntsville_Roundup_3-in-Huntsville_AL

Peace, and more about all of my struggles soon,
pnm


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## asiam

Podsnomo, I am so happy for you that you told your girlfriend about your poppy habit. Not mentioning kratom sounds like it was an honest mistake, I give you great kudos on telling her that you have a problem none-the-less. That is HARD to do! Because it means you are fighting the habit, whether your body is telling you that you want it or not, you have held yourself accountable for a huge problem in your life and it means you really want change, and that is extremely admirable and motivating to all that read your posts (and myself). 


Oh, you asked a question, why did I not quit alcohol before kratom, well simple, I didn't drink until I started using kratom. I only started to drink on my kratom off-days so that I could get through them, and bam, a habit was born. I see a lot of threads that talk about quitting alcohol by using kratom, well the reverse is possible too... I never liked alcohol until I started to need it to get me through a kratom withdrawal day. 

Your spiritual connection is inspiring, I think that is our way out. I have a book sitting next to me called "Addiction and Grace", and it is about how addiction spurs from attaching spiritual relationships to substances instead of looking for a true spiritual connection. So it shows strength that you have that faith in the "invisible everything", which I believe in too  .  You mentioned courage, one thing I find extremely helpful is remembering the definition of courage from it's original latin translation: "Tell your story with all of your heart". It is the opposite of secrecy that gets us out of the deep traps we fall into, and that is why I give you such tremedous respect for telling your girlfriend, honesty is courage. She will be there with you now.

Oh, I should mention that I had a very tiny (3grams) of kratom 2 nights ago. I barely felt it, but I did feel more socially comfortable. I realize the trigger was that I was going to go do a physical activity with a friend, and I felt pressured for both physical energy, and social energy. So I took it quickly without thinking. I am still proud that I only used 3 grams which is very small. As I hear it, relapse is part of recovery. I do feel tempted to use it tomorrow and start an every-3-day-habit, which isn't good, but better than every day at least... I dont know... It sure did interupt my sleep and I feel very tired now since that usage.... but it's still tempting. And, i'm rambling. I may go to a nar-anon meeting tonight, not for me but for a friend that has the biggest hard-drug habit i've ever witnessed (actually hanging out with this person is what motivated me to use kratom in the first place, so this person is my main trigger), but it can still help me immensely


----------



## podsnomo

asiam said:


> Podsnomo, I am so happy for you that you told your girlfriend about your poppy habit. Not mentioning kratom sounds like it was an honest mistake, I give you great kudos on telling her that you have a problem none-the-less. That is HARD to do! Because it means you are fighting the habit, whether your body is telling you that you want it or not, you have held yourself accountable for a huge problem in your life and it means you really want change, and that is extremely admirable and motivating to all that read your posts (and myself).
> 
> 
> Oh, you asked a question, why did I not quit alcohol before kratom, well simple, I didn't drink until I started using kratom. I only started to drink on my kratom off-days so that I could get through them, and bam, a habit was born. I see a lot of threads that talk about quitting alcohol by using kratom, well the reverse is possible too... I never liked alcohol until I started to need it to get me through a kratom withdrawal day.
> 
> Your spiritual connection is inspiring, I think that is our way out. I have a book sitting next to me called "Addiction and Grace", and it is about how addiction spurs from attaching spiritual relationships to substances instead of looking for a true spiritual connection. So it shows strength that you have that faith in the "invisible everything", which I believe in too  .  You mentioned courage, one thing I find extremely helpful is remembering the definition of courage from it's original latin translation: "Tell your story with all of your heart". It is the opposite of secrecy that gets us out of the deep traps we fall into, and that is why I give you such tremedous respect for telling your girlfriend, honesty is courage. She will be there with you now.
> 
> Oh, I should mention that I had a very tiny (3grams) of kratom 2 nights ago. I barely felt it, but I did feel more socially comfortable. I realize the trigger was that I was going to go do a physical activity with a friend, and I felt pressured for both physical energy, and social energy. So I took it quickly without thinking. I am still proud that I only used 3 grams which is very small. As I hear it, relapse is part of recovery. I do feel tempted to use it tomorrow and start an every-3-day-habit, which isn't good, but better than every day at least... I dont know... It sure did interupt my sleep and I feel very tired now since that usage.... but it's still tempting. And, i'm rambling. I may go to a nar-anon meeting tonight, not for me but for a friend that has the biggest hard-drug habit i've ever witnessed (actually hanging out with this person is what motivated me to use kratom in the first place, so this person is my main trigger), but it can still help me immensely



Thanks for your super-thoughtful reply Asiam! And thank you for your kinds words. I think you're right on about honesty and spirituality. For me for sure, the only solution to my physical malady is a spiritual one. I've tried just about everything else, and this is the ONLY thing that has kept me away from drink and hard opiates. 

And I wouldn't call your 3g dose a relapse. I'd call it a slip. But yes, for most of us, it is part of recovery. My sponsor though, he was only ever a drunk. Alcohol only, but once he quit and came to AA he never drank again. Or hasn't since. He stays very plugged into the program. So, relapses and slips are not requirements for recovery, but they are common. 

I never knew the origin of the meaning of courage. I shall remember that. 

Something else I heard this week that was awesome was when I was listening to Burns B. (Burns Brady) on aaspeakers.org.  (I linked to it in my previous post) He was talking about psychotherapy and how they put him into that when he had an amphetamine problem in college, well prior to his alcoholism. Anyway, he said that in cognitive therapy what is done is that they try to basically get you to think yourself into a different way of acting/behaving. And it works for just about everything else, but not for the disease of alcoholism/addiction. For us we must do the reverse: we must act/behave ourselves into a new way of thinking. That blew me away. So THAT's why I had to tell my gf about my addiction. They secrets keep us sick, and they do. I wouldn't have ever told her when I was actively using, but now I'm acting my way into a new way of thinking, and it's working. It's a relief not to have that over my head all the time, even though we're both still dealing with the pain that ensued from that bomb shell I dropped on the woman I love SO much. 

And good for you on attending a meeting. I don't know whether or not you have a serious problem, or how serious it is or could become if you do have one. What I do know though is that all you have to have to start a path to recovery (should you truly and desperately need it as I did) is a the tiniest bit of willingness. Less than that, all you need is the tiniest bit of willingness to be willing to be willing. That's all that is needed. So if you do find yourself in hot water someday, never forget that. It could save your life. 

I'm almost out of kratom. Just enough for tomorrow and a small package should arrive tomorrow. How many people check their tracking number 20 times a day? Anyway, I'm going to stop with ordering multiple strains and quit fooling myself that I'm a connoisseur. What I'm really doing by continuing to take kratom is entrenching an addiction to it. I've got to get honest with myself there. I don't think the physical WDs will be as bad as the mental cravings afterward, as you've experienced. And I'll need to rely heavily on my seedling spirituality to get me through that. Knowing I'm finally free will be an amazing source of inspiration for me. 

Nancy, what's up? I hope I wasn't presumptuous or overdoing it with my attempts at advice. Let us know how you are, eh?

peace and love,
pods no more


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## nancylynnsmith

Hey Pods No More, and Asiam,


It's great checking in and reading such thoughtful and honest responses.  THIS, at the moment is what is keeping me optimistic and committed.  I go through this cycle with my quitting kratom and drinking where I'm energetic for a few days and optimistic and then I get the blahs.   It's happened about three or four times in the last month and a half.  I'm currently in a real blah stage.  It hasn't helped that I have a killer headache right now and had it yesterday.  When I get like this, I lie around all day and don't do anything.   So anyway, I got my ass out of bed at least today, and I'm waiting for my headache to abate.   I joined a dance class that meets every other day, and I'm going today even if it involves shuffling around

No, you were not at all presumptuous with the advice.   I appreciate it these links A LOT.  I listened to BB yesterday.  Very insightful.  Very funny and while I couldn't relate to ALL of it (a point he made about listening to others' journeys) I related to a lot of it.  

I'm still struggling with the 'unmanageability' part but I know I'm bullshitting myself, because I could never drink one or two drinks.  Every time I drank, which over the last four years has been every day or every other day, I drank until I went to bed.   THAT's alcoholism - without the DUI's, car wrecks, etc.
I have a friend who has been telling me for years that I'm an alcoholic.  She said one time, about my marriage, "It (your alcoholism) is going to become a problem).  It hasn't yet, but I can see how it would.  Drinking wasn't making me happy anymore - it was making me maudlin or morose.   There's nothing more obnoxious than a crying drunk.  As much as my husband loves me, yuk!   So anyway PNM, I'm willing.  And I'm going to keep going to meetings even though there isn't this sense of 'now or never' that I should have.

Asiam, hang in there.   Our minds are so tricky.  Like PNM pointed out - we can't really change our thinking - we have to rely on the behavior change first - and for me that means AA.  I do know that one can't do this alone.

My head is killing me, so I think I'll go watch some TV for awhile (maybe Intervention.  I love you all.  Thanks for being here.  Keep me updated.

Love,
N


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## podsnomo

nancylynnsmith said:


> Hey Pods No More, and Asiam,
> 
> 
> It's great checking in and reading such thoughtful and honest responses.  THIS, at the moment is what is keeping me optimistic and committed.  I go through this cycle with my quitting kratom and drinking where I'm energetic for a few days and optimistic and then I get the blahs.   It's happened about three or four times in the last month and a half.  I'm currently in a real blah stage.  It hasn't helped that I have a killer headache right now and had it yesterday.  When I get like this, I lie around all day and don't do anything.   So anyway, I got my ass out of bed at least today, and I'm waiting for my headache to abate.   I joined a dance class that meets every other day, and I'm going today even if it involves shuffling around
> 
> No, you were not at all presumptuous with the advice.   I appreciate it these links A LOT.  I listened to BB yesterday.  Very insightful.  Very funny and while I couldn't relate to ALL of it (a point he made about listening to others' journeys) I related to a lot of it.
> 
> I'm still struggling with the 'unmanageability' part but I know I'm bullshitting myself, because I could never drink one or two drinks.  Every time I drank, which over the last four years has been every day or every other day, I drank until I went to bed.   THAT's alcoholism - without the DUI's, car wrecks, etc.
> I have a friend who has been telling me for years that I'm an alcoholic.  She said one time, about my marriage, "It (your alcoholism) is going to become a problem).  It hasn't yet, but I can see how it would.  Drinking wasn't making me happy anymore - it was making me maudlin or morose.   There's nothing more obnoxious than a crying drunk.  As much as my husband loves me, yuk!   So anyway PNM, I'm willing.  And I'm going to keep going to meetings even though there isn't this sense of 'now or never' that I should have.
> 
> Asiam, hang in there.   Our minds are so tricky.  Like PNM pointed out - we can't really change our thinking - we have to rely on the behavior change first - and for me that means AA.  I do know that one can't do this alone.
> 
> My head is killing me, so I think I'll go watch some TV for awhile (maybe Intervention.  I love you all.  Thanks for being here.  Keep me updated.
> 
> Love,
> N



About to head out, but wanted to quickly say, you don't need a sense of now or never. "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps." -Alcoholics Anonymous, p.58

That's all. Do you want to be "rocketed into a fourth dimension"? It's waiting for you, and once there, you'll be amazed. I'm only partially there, and already--amazed!

More soon.,
pnm


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## nancylynnsmith

Good grief,

I'm being a real asshole.  In my effort to show how cool I am with not drinking, I mixed my husband's nightly bourbon and coke.  I need a sponsor.  Didn't take a drink, but sure almost did.

N


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## podsnomo

You do need a sponsor Nance. This person will help you work through your feelings and reservations about the program, but it is only you who can decide if it's right for you. Burns says it took everything it took for him to get to where he was. For me, I didn't have a rock bottom. Well, spiritually I was bankrupt, but my life was not that bad: gf, part time job, doctorate in hand...felt like I was managing just fine. I finally realized there was a difference between eking out a pretty unhappy, spiritually bankrupt life, and living a whole-life, complete with peace in my heart and a feeling of purpose. The deal is, for for me at least, and for a lot of high-functioning alcoholics, is that I never really had a do-or-die choice. I don't have one of these stories that includes jails and institutions and hospitals. But I am for sure an alcoholic. 

Anyway, I'm rambling and I gotta get ready for work. Nance, you're not an asshole, nor are you being one. This is a tricky journey we walk, especially in the beginning. You absolutely must be kind to yourself. Almost taking a drink doesn't make you an asshole; it makes you human. No more calling you names. 

warmest regards and more soon,
pnm


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## nancylynnsmith

Hey PNM and Asiam,

So, tomorrow, I am going to a gig with my hubby (he's an architect, but has been in a band for the last forty years), and I ALWAYS drink at his gigs.  So I'm taking a laundry basket of stuff to do (there's usually a green room to hang in).  Thank PNM for the kind words.  I guess by 'asshole' I mean REALLY NOT SMART.   How is it going with you?  Do you go to a meeting every day?   How did you find a sponsor?  I've got to run, but please keep me posted.

Love,
n
'


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## podsnomo

Hey Nancy, 

Good luck today with getting through that gig. The strangest and seemingly one of the most difficult things early in sobriety is not drinking while doing things during which you normally drank. It feels damn odd, but it gets better. I'm doing OK, but have more to tell about than my time permits this morning. My sponsor actually found me at my first meeting. I raised my hand when they asked if I'd ever been to an AA meeting. He talked to me after the meeting and I got his #. Known for over a year now. Fucking fantastic guy. I never met an alcoholic who doesn't care, or isn't caring. There's a warmth and caringness to us that defies description and is almost beyond belief. You're in good hands. 

More soon, love,
pnm


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## nancylynnsmith

Hey PNM,

Thanks.   I hope all is well.  By 'more to tell' I guess you're struggling (?) with the day to day stuff, or you're doing really well.   I can't tell you how much it means to me for you to check in.   I can't go to a meeting today or tomorrow, but Sunday is a big women's meeting, and I hope to find a sponsor there.  How's the gf situation?  Are things going back to normal?  How about the Kratom?   Are you at peace with how that's going? I'm thinking about you, and look forward to hearing what's going on?  

My husband and I went out to a restaurant that we go to all the time, in which I usually ordered at least two drinks, sometimes a pitcher of margaritas.  Anyhoo, he ordered a beer, I got water, and later I asked him if it was weird for him - me not drinking.  He said (emphatically) No!  Not at all.  Then he said, "I don't think you really need to completely quit - just every once in awhile.  Then, when he saw my face, he said, "Unless you don't think you can do that."  So I responded, "That's the thing.  I don't think I can."  I think a couple of things are going on: 

 he doesn't really think I'm an alcoholic
he doesn't really want to accept I have the disease of alcoholism
he doesn't understand alcoholism since his family is not a long line of alkies like mine.
he just needs time and education to see what's really going on.

or all of the above.

He loves me, and I know that he always wants what is best for me, and so I think it's up to me to educate him and give him time.  

Well, have a great weekend.  I'll talk to you soon.

ASIAM - how is it going?

Love,
N


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## podsnomo

Yes indeed Nance, I'm struggling. Well, I'm actually getting better through my AA program, staying sober, and in my spiritual progress. My gf, as I am learning though, is not. My sponsor said a few that times that often what happens when an alcoholic starts to get better is that those closest to him/her become angry or upset or lots of other things. Apparently, it's easy to play the victim when the alcoholic next to you is clearly the root of all your troubles. But when he gets better, a significant other will often find that they are not better, and it becomes very hard for them to accept that they are sick too. 

She says she's dealing with feeling like she did last summer. Though she may have had an inkling before then, last summer was when she found out her dad had a serious problem with alcohol. That's also when she found out that her parent's marriage was far, far from the fairy tale she had in her head. 

So now, she's angry. Angry at me. Angry that she needs a program. In her words. "still very unwilling", referring to her program in al anon. People who live with us (alcoholics) often (not always) become sick too. There's a pretty good chance she wouldn't have ignored or tolerated my drinking the way she did in the beginning of our relationship if she hadn't at that point already been impacted by the disease of alcoholism. Alcoholics take hostages, to use Burns Brady's metaphor. 

She also feels angry at me and guilty for me not telling her because she feels like she could have helped me. This means she has not got step one. That she is powerless over alcohol, even as a non-alcoholic. The catch-22 for me is that what she needs to hear would only make her angrier if it came from me. If I suggest she call her sponsor, or suggest she work her program, or suggest any fucking thing that's got to do with her recovery for her part in this--her unwilling/unknowing part in all this--it will only make her angrier and more resentful of me. 

I worry for you Nancy about what's behind your husband's feelings about this. Perhaps if you begin recovery, he may feel guilty drinking around you, or he may question he own relationship with alcohol. And whether he has a problem or not, that might make him feel uncomfortable. 

Your four characterizations of what you think is going on with him may well be pretty close, but it can't be the whole picture, and even he can't know the whole picture unless he does something actively to show he wants to respond to his need for education over time about this disease, it's many facets, and the myriad ways it affects different types of alcoholics and problem drinkers. Whatever we want to call ourselves...

Here's where I think you're wrong though. It's not up to you to educate him. It's up to him and people he might want to find in al anon if he's willing. You have to get you well. You cannot do that for yourself and someone else at the same time. It's been tried to many times. It doesn't work. It just doesn't. Never has. You can show him how he can help you, by finding some support and education on his own. And you can go to meetings together. But please, do not take the burden of educating him and leading him through this on. First, as a newly sober person, your brain is just not going to cooperate the way you'd like for awhile. Burns calls it sawdust for brains. It's not THAT bad, but through our drinking and our obsession to drink, the physical and psychic impact of those, this leaves us with a lack of capacity to take on such a thing. 

But the real trouble is that alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful. If you try to take all that on in helping him through this, as much as you want to out of your love for him, problems in understanding will arise. Varying opinions on the weight of this or that will lead to resentments. Your marriage seems pretty strong as it is. Keep it that way. Speak up at a newcomer's meeting and find a sponsor. If he's willing to go to al anon and see what it's all about, then I applaud him. But do not push him. That is just my advice. Of course, you know him better than anyone, but at the same time, I know alcoholism a little more than you do right now. So play it safe. 

Oh yeah, the kratom. Then I gotta get some sleep. My habit is not progressing in terms of usage. When I'm busier, or do something fun, like tonight I went square dancing (no, not a hillbilly) I don't use as much. Or I forget to use some and get some chills and stuff. No biggie. I have yet another order on the way. My biggest order yet, and I am going to pray and meditate my way away from it with this batch. I'm giving myself the first 2 days to use as I please, and see how it make me feel. Then I can note all the things that I want from being free from all of it. Taper from there, and be free. 

And Asiam, I also would like to know how you are, and all the other people who used to post here. I suppose Nancy and I ran them off and sort of monopolized the thread. Sorry! All are very welcome still, we promise!

Love to all,
pnm


----------



## Vaya

*podsnomo*, I'm not really sure I can add anything to what you wrote.
That was an amazing post; I savored reading it, and I thank you for it.

Much love,

~ Vaya


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Lots to think about PNM.  And process.  Thank you for your incredibly helpful post.  I did fine at the gig last night.  I will post more later.  Going to a women's meeting tomorrow to find a sponsor.  I think my husband may not want to look at his own drinking (one or two drinks a day or every other day).  The thing is, he has no problem with it, but not having me as a drinking buddy has shifted things.  You're right about everything.

Love,
N


----------



## podsnomo

Vaya said:


> *podsnomo*, I'm not really sure I can add anything to what you wrote.
> That was an amazing post; I savored reading it, and I thank you for it.
> 
> Much love,
> 
> ~ Vaya







nancylynnsmith said:


> Lots to think about PNM.  And process.  Thank you for your incredibly helpful post.  I did fine at the gig last night.  I will post more later.  Going to a women's meeting tomorrow to find a sponsor.  I think my husband may not want to look at his own drinking (one or two drinks a day or every other day).  The thing is, he has no problem with it, but not having me as a drinking buddy has shifted things.  You're right about everything.
> 
> Love,
> N



Thank you both for your kind words. Helping other people helps me get better too. And I'm so glad that I'm getting better, and I can tell because it seems I don't give rubbish for advice anymore. Trust me, I used to give the worst advice in the world, and mostly to myself!

And Nance, I'm not right about EVERYthing. ;-) So, you can't be his drinking buddy anymore. Maybe that means you can't chill with him while he drinks, at least for a while. Or maybe it doesn't. All you can be sure of now is that there's not much you can be sure of right now. Remember always to be kind to yourself through this new, and IMHO, incredible journey you're embarking on. And be kind to him and to both of you too. Early sobriety is a good time to do something kind of new, yet not extreme, but fun. Like something in nature. A short canoe trip...something like that. If he's willing to work with you through this, then count yourself extremely blessed. And all you need, for yourself and from him, is the tiniest bit of willingness. That willingness is a seed that can become a mighty oak. 

Yes, there is a lot to think about and process, but don't attempt it. Take today as best you can. Keep an open mind in starting your program, work your program, and everything will fall into place. I can promise that much. One day at a time. Message to messenger, the receiver and the reciprocity. 

Love and well wishes,
pnm


----------



## asiam

i posted, and then deleted, becuase i'm a little paranoid about putting personal things out there. but i dont know where else to report to! i have been having kratom every 3rd day and the last 3 days have been really bad with substances in general. 2 days of black out drinking alone in a row and then I tried something pretty hard which was a mistake. I also realize I have a bigger problem that all this is connected to and I see what will help me the best.  I am hoping that after this, I can just quit EVERYTHING... and i'd love to flush that kratom and say bye bye to addictions


----------



## podsnomo

asiam said:


> i posted, and then deleted, becuase i'm a little paranoid about putting personal things out there. but i dont know where else to report to! i have been having kratom every 3rd day and the last 3 days have been really bad with substances in general. 2 days of black out drinking alone in a row and then I tried something pretty hard which was a mistake. I also realize I have a bigger problem that all this is connected to and I see what will help me the best.  I am hoping that after this, I can just quit EVERYTHING... and i'd love to flush that kratom and say bye bye to addictions



You sure do sound willing! That's a fantastic start, believe it or not. You also sound like me, an alcoholic and an addict. That just my humble guess though. Only you can decide that. If you want to quit everything, my humble guess is that you'll need help. 

"If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it — then you are ready to take certain steps. At some of these we balked. thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely. Remember that we deal with alcohol — cunning, baffling, powerful! Without help it is too much for us."

That's from the AA big book. I'm sure you know how many steps are referred to.  Join the fellowship, I humbly implore! 

The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking/using. Another quote, "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a (wo)man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation." —HERBERT SPENCER

You can do it. But I beg you not to try to do it alone. There are far too many willing, loving, compassionate, wonderful people out there who are just waiting to help. I've never met an alcoholic who doesn't care. There's a deep caring about us that defies description and is almost beyond belief. 

PM me if you want to get some of that personal stuff off your chest. I will guard your anonymity and your confidence like Fort Knox.

Hang in there. There is a solution, I promise.

warmest regards,
pnm


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Dear Asiam,

Hang in there.  You're on your way.  As PNM said, the WILLINGNESS is the key to this.  Keep posting.

Love, 
N


----------



## podsnomo

I love all of you!

pnm


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Yoooooooo,

Sorry, I've been busy.  Anyhoo, how is everyone?  I had a job interview today for a teaching position that I think I really want.  I didn't think I had a snowball's chance because during the first round they had hundreds of applicants.  So I went in there with a 'whatever' attitude.  Had a really great interview, was told I was only one of five out of 500+ applicants who had been called back, and that I 'had a really good interview.'   So anyway, what did all this do for me?  Made me want to go home and DRINK A LOT OF JACK DANIELS!!!!!  What the fuck.  I felt completely hyped up.   So I went to a meeting.   I'm doing all right.  Actually told my husband where I went and why.  He keeps saying he's proud of me. 

Pods!  What's up?  Asiam, HOLD FAST!  As my Scottish mom and dad would say (it's the family motto).  Anyhoo, I usually held fast to my drink, but don't give up!!

Love, 
N

Love,


----------



## Mycotheologist

I'd say micro-dosing with iboga is the way to go. Also from what I've read, when micro-dosing, one becomes highly sensitive to opioids but does not develop any significant tolerance or dependance.


----------



## podsnomo

Mycotheologist said:


> I'd say micro-dosing with iboga is the way to go. Also from what I've read, when micro-dosing, one becomes highly sensitive to opioids but does not develop any significant tolerance or dependance.



The way to go for what? I don't know that anyone here is looking to add a hallucinogen to their diets. Most, if not all, in this thread want to be clean and free.


----------



## podsnomo

nancylynnsmith said:


> Yoooooooo,
> 
> Sorry, I've been busy.  Anyhoo, how is everyone?  I had a job interview today for a teaching position that I think I really want.  I didn't think I had a snowball's chance because during the first round they had hundreds of applicants.  So I went in there with a 'whatever' attitude.  Had a really great interview, was told I was only one of five out of 500+ applicants who had been called back, and that I 'had a really good interview.'   So anyway, what did all this do for me?  Made me want to go home and DRINK A LOT OF JACK DANIELS!!!!!  What the fuck.  I felt completely hyped up.   So I went to a meeting.   I'm doing all right.  Actually told my husband where I went and why.  He keeps saying he's proud of me.
> 
> Pods!  What's up?  Asiam, HOLD FAST!  As my Scottish mom and dad would say (it's the family motto).  Anyhoo, I usually held fast to my drink, but don't give up!!
> 
> Love,
> N
> 
> Love,



So, what IS up? Well, I wish I knew really. Things are still on the rocks with my girlfriend. I went over there last night and we "got friendly" again, but I don't know what it means. When I first told her about the poppy pods about 3 weeks ago she got really angry. Angry at me, angry at needing al anon, just ANGRY. And she said that night that she thought I shouldn't stay there for a while because I'd be there and she'd be mad at me and she didn't want that to be a toxic environment or something like that. I don't know that things have changed. I saw her night before last too, and that night as well as last night we didn't talk about anything to do with our relationship or anything, recovery, nothing like that. 

When we do talk about it she gets really upset. She said four days ago that we needed to make a rule (read: she made a rule) that we wouldn't talk about stuff at night. Night is the hard part of the day for her, when she thinks about her dad and when things upset her more, etc. Well guess what, we only see each other at night. Pshaw! And I feel like she only wants the comfy parts of the realtionship and doesn't want to face her feelings on so many things. I don't know how much longer I can do things like this. I love her dearly, but I'm starting to think about how it could take a LONG time to get over this or to start getting better. She's pretty sick from the impact of her father's and my alcoholism. And for me, I've gotten better through AA. Her dad's still an in-denial, active alcoholic. And she has a million pounds of rage, resentment, bitterness, self-pity, and pure shit built up that she's not dealing with. 

M sponsor tells me, and the program teaches, that I am powerless over this, just as I am powerless over alcohol. I said this before, I think, that if I tell her what she needs to hear: that she needs to embrace her program and work through her rage etc., that she needs to realize, admit, and internalize her powerlessness over alcohol, and everything else--if I tell her those things it will only make her angrier. I want to help her and for the first time in our relationship my trying to help is exactly what will do the opposite. 

I'm starting to feel, sometimes, like we're falling apart, or that it's inevitable. And I'm so damn scared of being alone that I even made a profile on a dating site b/c, my crazy reasoning is that it took me almost a year to find her, and so I might as well start now. Now she's IMing me and asked how she is. Her: i'm ok.  Me: care to elaborate? Her: i'm full of good food and trying not to think too much about anything.  Yeah, that's really fucking helpful. I guess that's how we'll mend this relationship, by ignoring. Fuckinghell!

Not long ago, this would have made me want to drink. Right now, I just want to go to sleep so I can get up, drink some good coffee, and meditate before work. I feel like I'm just barely OK though. And now kratom is turning into a fucking secret. Maybe I should just tell her about so she can find herself a good enough excuse to dump me because she's too emotionally lazy, unwilling to do what it takes, and obviously doesn't love me enough to help herself so we can be happy together?!?!

Fuckalmighty. I gotta go walk my dog or I'm gonna break some shit. 

More later when I cool down.

And God help any fucker who crosses me or tries to talk smack to me while I'm out.

Update: luckily for everyone, no one crossed me last night while I was walking my dog. Truth is though, I was hoping some punk would try to start something. Damn, I need to reign in my emotional rages! I'm much better this morning.


----------



## Mycotheologist

podsnomo said:


> The way to go for what? I don't know that anyone here is looking to add a hallucinogen to their diets. Most, if not all, in this thread want to be clean and free.



Do your research. Microdoses have no psychedelic effects but have therapeutic effects that will alleviate PAWS and quell cravings. It doesn't just suppress these symptoms, it accelerates recovery.


----------



## podsnomo

OK, that's all I was asking. But puhhlease don't tell me to do my research. If I did "research" every time somebody posted something without an explanation I wouldn't have time to do much else. So if you want to make in informative post we need to have the information; that's what makes it informative. Or at least tell us we need to go searching elsewhere for the reason you think a substance is "the way to go".


----------



## Mycotheologist

Psychedelic doses (commonly called "flood" doses) of ibogaine are by far the most beneficial. They not only have physiological therapeutic properties, they also have great psychotherapeutic value. For dealing with acute opioid withdrawals using ibogaine, its all or nothing. You have to take a psychedelic dose to feel significant relief from the w/d symptoms. For PAWS though, micro-dosing works.


----------



## podsnomo

Hmmm. Thank you for the clarity.  So, without sourcing or pricing; is this stuff attainable in the US? I find that it is a schedule 1 drug in the U.S. I also read that it comes from a relatively small geographic area in Africa. So, is it attainable on the street? Or do you find it online? What continent/country are you on/in if you don't mind saying so. If I were to have serious PAWS after my taper from kratom, this might be appealing to me, given that the microdose doesn't trip you out, and I see a lot of info and reports supporting your claim that it is a good therapy for addiction and WD. Also myco, is the value in ibogaine similar in pharmacology or otherwise to using DXM in large doses for acute WD and in smaller doses for PAWS?

Nancy, did you read my last post (the long one)? It got wrapped onto the previous page. 

Asiam? How goes it? I hope I didn't run you off with my AA-speak. It's just that it works for me; it doesn't mean it's for you or that you need it necessarily.  

Myco, feel free to PM me if you don't want to divulge anything publicly. I'll guard your confidence as steadfastly as I do everyone else's.

Peace and love to all,
pnm


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Hey Pods,

I sent you a private message.   All is well here.   I'm physically active, haven't slipped with Kratom or drinking, even though I've come close a couple of times - just with 'wanting' more than anything.  But I don't want to start over.  It was hard to quit Kratom and it was hard to quit drinking.  I would hate to be sent all the way back to 'start' again for a minor and fleeting pleasure. 

Keep in touch@!
N


----------



## asiam

Hey pods, i'm really sorry to hear about your situation with your girlfriend. She sounds like she's dealing with her own stuff and doesn't open up enough to get it off her chest so that she has the emotional energy for others... Either way though, I hope you can sit down with her and maybe try to tell her that you need her through this, and see how she reacts? Relationships are so tough.

Nancy congrats on doing so well with the interview! You're doing great and I bet you're going to start feeling so much greatness soon too. It's really motivating that you've been able to ditch kratom and alcohol, for me at least.

I was doing really well there, I did 3 days of not using any kratom or alcohol or other substances, just caffeine. 2 of those days, it was actually really hard not to have a drink... I guess I realize I do have a problem if it becomes difficult to do 3 freaking days without anything. I was out meeting a friend somewhere around my house and while waiting, I started to walk back to my house for a drink, but turned myself around halfway and went back. I was so proud of that. But then yesterday I drank a lot... I was just so depressed and didn't feel like I could cope, and that could be kratom withdrawal rearing its ugly head again since I picked it up again 3 days ago. Either way I am suffering from a nasty hangover as a result.  I'm just waiting until my energy returns from the continued kratom usage so that I can start exercising again, and feeling good and sane AS I AM.... without these crutches.


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Hey Asiam,

You should be proud of yourself.   When I quit Kratom and drinking, it hit me like a ton of bricks that I was using them to 1) avoid thinking about something I didn't want to  think about   2) PROCRASTINATE/RELIEVE BOREDOM      AND 3)  avoid doing something that was not the most fun thing to do in the world.  Like PODS has said to me,  EVERYTHING shifts.   All those little triggers are now having to be dealt with in a different way - and I'm learning.  So congratulations, you walked back there to avoid something and then your ass turned back around and said - no!  I can do (fill in the blank) it without drinking.

Just being honest with yourself and willing will carry you through.  Quit beating yourself up.  We all have our own paths to quitting - something just clicks that's some kind of individual alchemy. Be nice to yourself.  You need to be kind to yourself.  A cliche, I know, but true.

Keep in touch!

Peace and love,
N


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Sorry for repeated posts.  I keep remembering stuff that might help re: kratom

I took Kratom every single day for three years, sometimes up to five times a day   FOR ENERGY AND OPTIMISM! 


I'm not lying - I now have more energy - every consistent single day and more optimism - every day than I did with Kratom.  I don't know exactly why, but I do.  Kratom now seems like a cheap, second rate way to get that high.

Thanks,
N


----------



## podsnomo

How did you get through the quit? Were you able to work and function or did you have to take some time off? How long did it last? What did you do to help yourself through. I want to be out on the otherside like you are. Any/all advice is so much more than welcome.

Peace,
pnm



nancylynnsmith said:


> Sorry for repeated posts.  I keep remembering stuff that might help re: kratom
> 
> I took Kratom every single day for three years, sometimes up to five times a day   FOR ENERGY AND OPTIMISM!
> 
> 
> I'm not lying - I now have more energy - every consistent single day and more optimism - every day than I did with Kratom.  I don't know exactly why, but I do.  Kratom now seems like a cheap, second rate way to get that high.
> 
> Thanks,
> N


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Hey Pods,

That 'N' was me, Nancy.   I wrote you a long private msg, but it wouldn't send because one of us was at max storage.  I deleted some of my messages so I could receive.   What was the last private msg you got from me?

Nancy


----------



## podsnomo

The last one I got was about your husband and friend and included this sentence. THIS IS WHERE YOU NEED TO BE AND HERE'S HOW TO GET THERE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE

Since you have fewer than 50 posts you have a tiny mailbox and can only send a message every 36 or 72 hours r something silly like that. 

So if you sent one answering the questions I just asked about kicking the kratom, I didn't get it. 

And Nancy, I knew it was you 

pods


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Sorry Pods,

That pvt one was not the last one I sent, I'll try to recover it somehow, or if I can't, I'll reconstruct it.  So, going CT, the withdrawals were, I'm sure, physical, but mostly psychological - i.e.: learning how to do something healthy when I normally would've used for a) avoidance  b)boredom c) procrastination d) energy/good mood.  

The withdrawal lasted about a month - I think.   The reason I don't know is the following symptoms could've been something else:
1.  tremor rushes
2.  insomnia
3.  coma-like lethargy


This was during the month that I was in my home in NC, and I didn't have to do shit, and I was out of my normal environment.  To tell you the truth, I needed that change of setting to instigate it.  So I really did need a 'shift.'  A weekend at the beach here in TX would probably have been an equally good, but shorter.   I needed some kind of *starting line*, and going to NC for a month did it.   I prepared for it mentally, as in, "Heeeerrrrreeee we go!"


My whole mindset about the withdrawals was 'suck it up.'   Years ago, I had weaned myself off methadone that a migraine doctor prescribed, so I knew what realllllly hard withdrawal was like.   The tremor rushes at that time were really bad.  Thus the four months.  I COULD NOT HAVE GONE CT WITH METHADONE, so I understand some people need to taper.  But with Kratom I just sucked it up, and moderating my alcohol was a ridiculous idea since I have NEVER been able to stop drinking once I started. 

You'll have to decide which one you want to do.  CT was just cleaner and easier for me to keep track of. 

Love ya,
N


----------



## podsnomo

Wow Nance, a month?! I'm not looking forward to that. Makes it seem like something I want to put off. Then again, I used to always put off quitting drinking. I'd always think about quitting tomorrow, and but every time I woke up it was always today. Every day I drank was always today. I never drank on a tomorrow. Make sense? I'm crazy.

When I wake up in the morning my eyes are watery, which was an early WD sign when I was using pods. I read that kratom withdrawals are way less than real opiates, but I'm just being a sissy about it. Plus, I've got plenty of kratom right now, so I don't have that added urgency of the pods becoming more scarce and more expensive. 

Sigh. I often wish I was some rich celebrity so I could just take a nice 60 day vacation at some sort of spa and recovery place. That's probably just me wanting to run away from shit too though. And things are still touchy as hell with my gf. Seems she's made about zero progress as far as dealing with her anger since I told her about pods over 3 weeks ago, I think. Maybe 4. 

My sponsor says I just need to deal with it today. I suppose I can.

feeling a bit defeated,
pods


----------



## podsnomo

OK, so I've meditated and I've decided it's never a perfect time to quit. So I'm going for it now. 

Here's my plan/where I'm at. I'll keep this updated as I go through it. I had forgotten about DXM and how many have found it a godsend during WD and PAWS. So, after two moderate doses already today, I was feeling some mild WDs. I took about 100mg of DXM and poof. I feel much better. My past experience with it, using it for WD from poppy pods was mixed. I took a couple of large doses, around 400mg during the worst of it, and it lessened them, but I didn't know much and wasn't using loperamide or anything else. 

For today, no more kratom. I'll take loperamide when/if I get shits or other tummy woes from WD. Tomorrow morning, I'll take some loperamide preemptively and 60 or 90 mg DXM, which is 2-3 times the recommended dose for a cough, but still nowhere near the dose that would cause a trip. My goal is to get through the worst of the WD time-window while still functioning, however uncomfortable and weird I may feel. I'll take a low dose of kratom when/if I get to the point of not being able to function. 

This is a bold experiment and I've got a lot going on the next few days, but at least I have the rest of today to see how I do with the moderate dose of DXM at the point of kratom cessation. I had been taking kratom doses of about8-10g 4-6 times a day. So, later today will give me some idea of the days ahead. 

I know, I know, I'm treating one drug with another, but dxm is not fun for me at the high-end "recreational" dose, and I'm using it to make the cessation of kratom tolerable since I don't have the luxury of time off to do so. So, for now, that's my plan.

You guys probably think I'm a nutcase. You may be right.

I love you all anyway,
pod and kratom nomo


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Dear PNM,

I had started an email telling you to cheer up because I had no doubt that when you were ready, you would do it.   Doing a bunch of stuff I didn't ordinarily do - everything from joining a dance class, getting my bike out, crocheting, reading stuff I wouldn't normally help me deal with the absence of abusing drugs/drink/food.

You can do it.  You can do it.  You will be SO FUCKING PROUD OF YOURSELF!!!  You will feel like there isn't anything you can't conquer once you start to deal with, and get over, all the issues and just plain LIFE that we avoid by using shit.   Just like with booze, when you quit, it's like, "Oh, okay, I can deal with this, I can deal with that, and this, and that and this and that!  There are probably people in this world who have actually dealt with life in a healthy way.    Maravillosa!!!

Keep us up to date.  YOU CAN DO IT.  Dont' be so scared of WD.  It's what it is, and then you're over it.  You're just going to have to suck it up for a little while!!!

PROUD OF YOU!
N


----------



## podsnomo

I love people, and you're a good people Nancy! That was just what I needed. Don't be so scared of WDs! Of course, one gets the total opposite by reading online. 

It is what it is. I'll let you know how tomorrow goes. Right now I'm feeling the WDs coming. I'm going to eat, even though I don't feel like eating, which may be something I have to do for a little while. 

I just have to get through this one, and that'll be my last substance. Well, I think I'll hang on to coffee and cigarettes for the near term. 

Thanks for the encouragement and honesty Nancy. I can do it, and I just have to suck it up for a while. 

I've done tougher things. Here I go!

warmest regards,
pnm


----------



## podsnomo

Fuck almighty. It's 7:30 a.m., the loperamide isn't doing much yet, and I'm looking at my busy day scared as hell. I might have to go for a taper here. Instead of my normal dose whenever the hell I want it, which is often, I'm going to do about 60% of my normal dose 3 times instead of 100% of my dose 5 or 6 times for today. Maybe I'll be ready for CT road by the weekend or next. Chills, sweats, shits, runny nose, watery eyes... I can't function like this. Dammit.


----------



## podsnomo

Alright. Did what I said. 60% of my normal dose and I'm still feeling some very mild withdrawals, which means this is a good dose for tapering for the next day or two. Then about two thirds of that dose for a couple of days. Then drop one dosage, but keep amount the same, so still a daily drop of a third, Then drop the twice daily down by a third until I get to about 2 or 3g twice a day. Then drop by half grams each dose every two or three days, until I can jump and be able to function. Damn, I got all revved up about quitting and being free, but this is going to take some doing. Shit.


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Even when the reality of WD hits, nothing changes. Don't panic.  It is still what it is, and so don't freak out. If you have to taper, do a miniscule amount, don't plan your percentages.  Just wait as long as you can and take the teeniest amount you can to take the edge off. I think planning your tapering is one way you keep yourself from freaking out, and the reality is that if you don't do the exact PLAN you created, then you think you've 'failed' so go ahead and start over on another plan.  I know I'm doing the 'bossy' thing, and I trust that you will only chew on what I've said and decide if it's applicable or not.  Everyone has to do it the way it works for them.

Having said that, if you had a less rigid taper plan, then you wouldn't be able to 'fail.'   If, on the other hand, you go as long as you can, and then did the smallest amount you can to take the edge off, eventually, you'll see the time and dose getting smaller and smaller.
N


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Ohhhh pooooooddddddsssss


----------



## podsnomo

OK, so today I didn't take any DXM as it made me feel damn creepy, and I didn't go back to my old doses of kratom, but I didn't scrimp through either. I was thinking I just needed to take 4-6mg of loperamide to dent the withdrawals, but I'm reading about people taking 20-40mg at a pop up to three times a day. The reports seem good since it's an opiate that doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier. That's why it doesn't make you high. But it plugs into the opiate receptors in the gut, which stops the shits and for many, pretty much ALL of the physical withdrawals. If this works for me, I may have finally find a workable way out of this kratom habit without having to take several days off, which I am loathe to do. I just can't do my work and drive around to my different responsibilities and be able to do the kind of very people-focused, high intensity work I do with the shits, chills, sweats, severe anxiety, rage and whatever else that comes. And I know it comes. All my WDs so far have started just the way my pods WDs did. And kratom is a different animal than opium pods. The opium pods were predictable because I blended them up into a homogeneous mixture. But even though the kratom is blended up and seemingly homogeneous, I find that it sometimes makes me feel great, sometimes makes me feel nauseous, sometimes makes me feel tired, sometimes makes me feel energetic, and sometimes does a combination of these things between doses, with no apparent pattern. So, a taper seems like a bad idea, and I agree with you Nance about the idea of only taking the least I could need, but today was just too long, and I was too much of a wimp to go try to go through it miserable. 

So, I'm going to try the higher doses of loperamide. I'm not going to start out at the really high doses right off, but will take a fairly aggressive dose in the morning and see how it does, and titrate up from there until I can deal. I'll keep a small amount of kratom nearby at first just in case. But I think I should be able to WD with the aid of loperamide and then just taper that as needed. There are so many rports around of this working for people with heavier opiate habits than my kratom addiction, so I'm quite hopeful that this will be the help I need. 

The only thing that hasn't changed is my resolve. Well, it has changed; it's gotten stronger. I want freedom from this shit. If it comes down to it, and none of this works, I'll have to take a day or two off, like a Saturday morning and a Monday for three days to get through the worst. I work 6 days a week! 

I know what you mean about feeling like you've failed because of messing up a taper plan, but I went through that so many times before I was able to get off the pods that I know that son and dance. All that matters as that I keep at it and don't give up.

Pray for me!

Love,
pods


----------



## asiam

hey pods, i really believe that you want this and you can definitely get through it, nancy is proof. Just keep chugging at it, and remember every step is a step in the right direction. I'm glad you are finding what works for you! I am praying for you and thinking about you.  Nancy you are a really good friend 


I just flushed all of my kratom. Well, I flushed about 500g, and then the toilet clogged..... Oops. So I threw out the other 700g and made sure it was mixed with the garbage. I have no kratom except for spilled stuff in the bottom of my drawer. I am DEDICATED, completely, to full recovery from ALL substance abuse, even caffeine.Caffeine might have to wait until after the lethargy of kratom withdrawal   I did 2 days sober, and this was my third day. Something about that third day is so oo oooo hard! It is the turning point of decision.  Even though, I did drink about 4 glasses of wine and some kratom today, but that was part of the motivation. About an hour after taking that stuff, I missed my sober state and the emotions I was on the verge of feeling, and wished I was back there.

What motivated this change is a combination of things. I went and hung out with a friend that really knows me as my sober, health-driven self, and he builds me up so much. Then I went and hung out with a friend who has been a trigger for a lot of my habits, and I realized exactly how much I don't belong with this person, and because I finally have another friend to talk to, I feel like I can distance myself from this person and it will be worth it. I always knew that this person was my main trigger, but I didn't want to distance myself because I relied on them so deeply for emotional connection. Today, I realized that this person is lost in their own drugs, and is not there and never has been since I've known them except for a few sober times, just like I haven't been.

This other, supportive friend I have, has offered me something really dear to my heart. He knows that I've always wanted to travel and connect with nature, and I opened up to him about my recent and new-found (well, 5 months now) addictions to alcohol and kratom and experiments with harder things. And he told me that he would go with me WWOOFing (volunteering on farms and in communities for accomodation and food coverage) AND also fund whatever I can't afford, which is half of the whole trip.... So I am leaving and going south to work on farms and in other communities for 2 weeks to a month, far away from any substance I can get my hands on and the triggers in my life, and into a spiritual atmosphere where there will be healthy minds and physical activity, fresh air and forests and oceans and all the things that call out the real me that I've been hiding from. I have social anxiety/agorophobia, so this trip is the most daunting thing I've ever done honestly, but if it gets me into real life and away from all the escapes I've created, and takes me away from the same atmosphere that has made me suicidal for enough time for me to get through withdrawal and deal with REAL LIFE again, that's all that matters..

One thing I'm realizig though, is that I have to rely on SOMETHING each evening when the feeling of real emotions and loneliness hits... It's a horrible feeling and I need to start relying on comforting self talk, self love and care, letting myself do childish and comfy things, and this includes overeating for a little while. Yesterday I ate 3000 calories! That's a lot for a little girl like myself, 1500 of it was in the evening when I was craving substances, but that peanut butter and milk and eggs and all the other things I ate for comfort kept me away from kratom and alcohol. Originally I used kratom to both alleviate social anxiety and also to lose weith and for motivation to exercise. So, I am going to have to accept and be willing to gain like 10 pounds to get off of it, despite already being overweight. 10 pounds for my mental health and energy and emotional coping skills back? 10 pounds to grow again spiritually and feel connected to my soul? SOLD!! I am here-by allowed to eat as much as my little child self desires as long as it's not something that will take away from my spirit..


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Woooooowwwwwwwwwwwww, 

Asiam, I am really glad to hear from you.   I wasn't sure that you were still with us.   WE KICK ASS!!!  I think you are doing an amazing thing, and the theme I detect threading through all our stories is that each one of us - you, me and pnm - has a good life, and for whatever reason, we avoid ANY unpleasantness - big or small - with SOMETHING :  drugs, booze, kratom, food, pods.  What we have to face may be hard, but I'm finding that when I get a craving, I ask myself, " What am I avoiding at this moment?"  And most of the time it is so minor - like boredom or mild anxiety, etc.  Sometimes it's big, but even that is not as bad as I thought it would be.   When I decided to face my demons, it felt really good - mainly because all my big scary demons weren't impossible to face. 

What a great friend you have to take you out of your situation.  You sound like you're young (twenties maybe?) and I spent my twenties in a long, continuous drunk and cocaine haze.   Looking back, I could have done so much during that time, before I had so many responsibilities. You're going on an adventure!   THAT IS WONDERFUL.  Getting out of your surroundings will help.  It helped me. Even if it's only for a day or two, I think getting away from all your triggers is really helpful. You sound like you know yourself.   You have a clear grasp ON WHO YOU REALLY ARE - not the food, kratom, booze you.   I hope you'll have an opportunity to keep us up to date on your progress.   

Since I'm a step ahead of you guys as far as kratom, I should tell you how it's progressing.  I feel so 'myself' now, that I realize what a half-rate high Kratom was.  Yes, it felt good - then.  But now, knowing how it compares to the energy and optimism that is coming naturally because I'm exploring activities and thought patterns to deal with the cravings, kratom looks pretty lame - as does booze and food.  Like you, I used food just like I did Kratom and booze, but much more often. When I started to realize what a diversion I was creating with kratom and booze, I started looking at food.  I bought a book that asks dozens and dozens of great questions to help you get to the bottom of any particular addiction, and I've been using it to look at the food one now.  It's called Sex, Drugs, Gambling & Chocolate.  It has been very helpful as I slowly answer the questions it asks.  

PNM, I was worried about you.  I was really glad to hear from you.  YOU HAVE MADE UP YOUR MIND.  THAT is the most important part of this whole process.  All I can say about the WD's is that they WILL pass.  Do what you need to do to get through them.   Even after two months, I still have trouble falling asleep, and so I'm taking 50mg trazodone and melatonin liquid.  I don't know if it's from WD, but I'm dealing with it somehow, so I don't mind it, even though insomnia IS THE MOST ANNOYING THING IN THE WORLD.  

Well, I'm glad to hear from both of you.  So, I have three more weeks until school starts and the shit hits the fan.   I KNOW it will be really, really hard, because teaching high school has got to be the most absurd, crazy-ass, stressful, ridiculous job there is, especially in a big city school.   I haven't heard about the job I really wanted (really close to home), but I guess I'll hear today.  If I don't get it, I'll have my first major disappointment to deal with as far as doing it without a kratom/food/booze crutch.   There's no way to avoid that.  I'll have to face it head on.

It's so weird to care so much about people whose face I don't know, but you guys are my support group.  I have AA, family and friends, but this forum is a chance to get down to details.  Anyhoo, if we ever want to put a face to a name, we can.  However, maybe the anonymity is what we need right now to be completely honest with one another.

Take care PNM and ASIAM.  I do really care how you're doing.

Love, N


----------



## nancylynnsmith

ASIAM,

I'm sorry.  It sounded like I was saying start dealing with your food thing. No. Not right now.  Eat until you feel like a tick!
N


----------



## nancylynnsmith

Gee fellas,

I could use you guys back on here.  My husband keeps telling me how proud he is that I quit Kratom and booze, but tonight said, "You can have a drink every now and then, unless you're convinced you're an alcoholic."   That kind of sucker punched me.  He doesn't think I'm an alcoholic.  Even after confessing how much I drank. I think he thinks I've talked myself into being labelled an 'alcoholic' and it's not necessarily true.  I'm a high functioning drunk.  But I'm still a drunk.  I almost had a beer 'to see if I'll get out of control."  But I didn't!    But I almost did.  However, I asked my diversion question:  what is really going on, and the conclusion was, I didn't want him to feel lonely when he had a beer.  Wheww.  So close.


I hope ya'll are okay.

Love,
N


----------



## stardust.hero

N  I'm so happy you were able to identify that. Good for you!


----------



## herbavore

nancylynnsmith said:


> Gee fellas,
> 
> I could use you guys back on here.  My husband keeps telling me how proud he is that I quit Kratom and booze, but tonight said, "You can have a drink every now and then, unless you're convinced you're an alcoholic."   That kind of sucker punched me.  He doesn't think I'm an alcoholic.  Even after confessing how much I drank. I think he thinks I've talked myself into being labelled an 'alcoholic' and it's not necessarily true.  I'm a high functioning drunk.  But I'm still a drunk.  I almost had a beer 'to see if I'll get out of control."  But I didn't!    But I almost did.  However, I asked my diversion question:  what is really going on, and the conclusion was, I didn't want him to feel lonely when he had a beer.  Wheww.  So close.
> 
> 
> I hope ya'll are okay.
> 
> Love,
> N



Wow! i am impressed, Nancy. I wonder if your husband might benefit from some reading material on the subject of alcoholism/addiction and how it affects everyone in a family and how everybody can play a part in keeping it going? That took some real strength on your part.


----------



## podsnomo

Your husband needs to understand that it's not how much you drink, but HOW you drink; what your relationship is to/with alcohol. I would only be speculating if I guessed at your husband's motivation for saying that, but I'd guess that he has some questions in his head that maybe even he doesn't know he has. 

People close to us often don't understand. Actually, unless they are al anon they pretty much never understand. When I slipped once I drank all the beer in the house, about 17 of them. Later when I was talking to my mom about it, she said something like, "Well if you could just only have a few. You know, control it?" She doesn't get it. And even after explaining the physical allergy, i.e., the phenomenon of craving and the mental obsession, I think it still just sounded like mishmush to her. But that's OK. I don't expect her to have to understand. 

My gf on the other hand, I NEED her to understand. And she's getting there. For a while after telling her about the addiction I had while "sober" from alcohol, she was furious. But it was anger previously untapped. She was furious at me, her dad, at life, that she needed a 12 step program. I'm far enough along to see the light at the end of the tunnel. But she still doesn't realize the serenity and peace and new way of life that lies in wait for us when we work a solid program. 

I think you are awesome for admitting to yourself and everyone else that you have a problem with alcohol and need help. But it's not just that, you want a better life. There's such an amazing world ahead of you and still, for all of us on the journey, a lot of problems. Being sober doesn't solve our problems. It allows us to face life on life's terms. 

I don't know what those terms will be for you Nancy. I worry for you and your husband a bit esp if he doesn't eventually come around to supporting you and getting active with his own recovery, or something along those lines. If you work your program with a sponsor Nancy your spirit will grow by leaps and bounds. You won't be a different person fundamentally but you will change in such basic ways that your marriage may feel very different to both of you. And that could be a wonderful thing, or a terrible thing, but much more likely, somewhere in between. 

I know, for me, my gf, without realizing it, was used to me being a kind of vegetable. But not like I was never doing anything. I too was high functioning. But I wasn't very plugged into my life. I wasn't happy for sure. And I was eking through, and I thought I was managing my life. Now I get step one. So when I started asserting myself in my life, it freaked her out. I started working towards a life insurance license as part of a goal of becoming a financial adviser, something wildly different than all my education and previous experience. I cut my hair off. I was happier. I responded more kindly and less selfishly, and even that seemed to bother her! 

People resist and fear change, and the alcoholic in recovery is no different, except that we are actively seeking change through action. It can freak out a significant other. Reminder here to all of us to be kind to ourselves and those close to us as regards all this change. You, at least I, have to be careful not to push my gf, but I also want to support her in as much as she's willing to put into her program. It's a beam to walk.

I don't know how much your husband needs a program, or if he should even have one. Really only he can decide. And if he does need one but is unwilling, you are powerless over that. And efforts to change him could just make things worse. 

I'm rambling, and I'm talking more about me than you, but maybe some of it relates. Maybe he was testing you to see if your resolve was firm here. Maybe he fears the change (as is natural bc it's an unknown) and he's looking to see if he's really going to have to deal with a fundamentally changing wife. Again, I'm speculating and probably not even doing that very well.

Just stay plugged in, keep coming back, get a start on your steps with your sponsor, and love yourself. I always worry too much about everything, and my sponsor (an incredible man) tells me, promises me, that I never have to figure anything out ever again. All I have to do is work my program, trust my higher power, and everything will end up as it should be. 

I'll try to write more when I'm less exhausted and frazzled. Also, I'll be sure to update you soon on my progress with the kratom. ugh!

Love and peace,
pnm



nancylynnsmith said:


> Gee fellas,
> 
> I could use you guys back on here.  My husband keeps telling me how proud he is that I quit Kratom and booze, but tonight said, "You can have a drink every now and then, unless you're convinced you're an alcoholic."   That kind of sucker punched me.  He doesn't think I'm an alcoholic.  Even after confessing how much I drank. I think he thinks I've talked myself into being labelled an 'alcoholic' and it's not necessarily true.  I'm a high functioning drunk.  But I'm still a drunk.  I almost had a beer 'to see if I'll get out of control."  But I didn't!    But I almost did.  However, I asked my diversion question:  what is really going on, and the conclusion was, I didn't want him to feel lonely when he had a beer.  Wheww.  So close.
> 
> 
> I hope ya'll are okay.
> 
> Love,
> N


----------



## nancylynnsmith

PNM,

I fucked up with alcohol.  But I'm still here.

N


----------



## podsnomo

Nancy, It's OK. Welcome to the journey. I'll be the last one on god's earth to judge you, and especially not for that. Be kind to yourself here. Don't beat yourself up. You're early in this process, so you haven't had time to start to build a spiritual solution. There are two things that treat alcoholism: alcohol and a spiritual program of action in AA. One stops working after a while and begins to rob from your life, but has its "rewards" instantly. The other takes time, never stops working as long as you work it, and is infinite in its potential. You may or may not fuck up again. See it for what it is: a slip, nothing more. And if you do slide back to where you were or worse, the fellowship and the solution will always be here for you. For most people, some fucking up, some serious and not so serious slips, some near-relapses and even a real relapse or a few are part of recovery. 

My hope and prayer for you is that your journey won't be as arduous as mine was, and as alcoholics go, mine wasn't that bad. Some go to prisons, institutions, homelessness. I sometimes feel afraid that my bottom wasn't reached. It's a dumb fear. The reality is that we who do not have the rockiest of rock bottoms have to work a bit harder than those who lose all and have nothing left in life but to surrender. My bottom was internal. I was spiritually bankrupt and my inner self was shredded to ribbons. Only now am I seeing how sick I was. I had come to see my alcoholic life as normal. Early sobriety is the damnedest thing. Keep coming back.  

Perspective. A new day tomorrow. A lesson learned. Do you have a sponsor yet? 

warmest regards, hugs, and more hugs,
pnm


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## nancylynnsmith

After about the fifth drink, my husband politely requested I stop, and of course, that was impossible.  I know my slip had a lot to do with me wanting to show him there is no such thing as moderation or 'a glass of wine over a nice dinner.'   He and I are straight about NO MORE DRINKING.  We had a looooong talk.  He just doesn't understand how someone wouldn't just stop when they started to feel out of control.  He's an architect, but has been the drummer for a series of bands, the current one having two female lead singers.  He said, when I pointed out that not everyone has that 'off' switch, "Yeah, I guess that's true.  The girls never stop drinking when we're playing."  He says, "I just don't get it."   I do, and now I think he's getting a clue.  

Pods, I've been going to meetings, but I don't have a sponsor yet.  The only women's meeting is on Sunday, and I haven't gone yet.  Anyway, I'm interested to hear what you're going through now.  I'll be okay.  I went to my husband's gig tonight (as I always do) and the band was drinking a lot as usual - but they were all supportive of my decision to not drink.

I'll check back in soon.

Thank you for your response.  Wise words and more to digest.

Love and hugs back,
N


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## podsnomo

These experiences seem to be working themselves out well Nancy. Sounds like your husband is indeed starting to understand. For normal drinkers, those who do not experience the phenomenon of craving (i.e., 2 drinks makes us thirsty for 10 more) or the mental obsession (i.e. thinking about drinking A LOT) it is hard for them to understand. 

http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2278
http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2279

This is Burns talking about the disease of alcoholism, from the spiritual side to the scientific. It's not an AA talk. It's about the disease and how it affects us as wells as some scientific reasons why. I suggest you consider listening to them together. It could help him see it as less of something "in your mind" and more as just a plain-old stark reality to be dealt with. 

It's OK not to have a sponsor yet, but I can tell you that going to meetings and not drinking will not bring peace. A spiritual program of action is needed a well. You've nothing to lose and everything to gain by giving yourself to our simple program (but not easy program. It may seem like a tall order. But taken a day at a time, it only gets better.

About me, I've reduced my kratom doses significantly and have ordered some stem and vein powder, which is supposed to be weak and just enough to use as a taper. This will help because instead of measuring fractions of a grams for dosage drops, I can take relatively more powder and still have drops in active alkaloids. My hair-brained plan to go CT without enough planning was kind of crazy. But the adjustments I'm amking have not taken away in the least my fire to rid myself of kratom once and for all.

Hang in there Nancy. It sound like your husband is catching on and I can tell you guys have a very strong marriage. I'm so proud of and happy for you both. 

take it easy,
pnm


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## herbavore

^Nancy, do you think your husband would ever consider going to an al-anon meeting? I learned a lot when I went. As a person that doesn't struggle with addiction it can be hard to understand. It's exactly like a person that doesn't have insomnia saying to an insomniac , "well, if you are tired enough, you will sleep". Seems logical but doesn't happen--two completely different realities going on.


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## nancylynnsmith

Thanks Herbavore,

He might.  I need to just do what I know works, and encourage him to al-anon just to get some perspective.   I really do think he is starting to understand.

Love,
N


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## nancylynnsmith

Hey Ya'lllllllllllllllllllllll
I'm assuming everyone is doing well since the posts dropped off!   Hope that's the case.   All's well here.


----------



## podsnomo

I'm out of town for a wedding. I'm still on the Kratom Nancy, but less of it, mostly because it's tough to find a chance to put some down the hatch being out of town and with my gf most of the time. Ugh. I'm learning that the WDs are less than I think they're gonna be, but also learning that being in an awkward social setting while needing some more kratom is kinda hellish. 

After the rehearsal dinner last night they all went to a bar. Last place I wanted to be. So I offered to walk the mile back to our car to bring it closer to the bar. Just didn't wanna be there. There's always somewhere or something one can do to get away from a shitty environment. I hate bars these days. I walk through and pretty much guess who's the regular people and who are of my type: alcoholics. We're easier to spot once on of us gets sober. 

Glad to hear things are well with you Nancy. Does it bug you if I ask about whether you have a sponsor and how you're feeling about starting to work your program?

Peace and love,
pnm


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## Seattle_Stranger

Hey all, I've been off the boards for a while but definitely not off the kratom.  I was using upwards of 30g of bali every day up until a week before I had to leave for an 8 day trip to the east coast, which would obviously be sans kratom.  Fearing withdrawals while on vacation, I planned to gradually taper down over the course of about 3 months before the trip, down to nothing at all before I leave.  Well, as anyone knows, that's hard, and I failed.  I used heavily up until the week before.  I tried an aggressive taper over the course of the week, simply tapering down each day from 3 doses in a day, down to 2, down to 1, took a difficult day off, used again for a couple days, took another day off, and then the day I left I had myself a hefty dose for the plane ride....and braced myself for the worst.

I got to NY and visited with family, doing a lot of casual drinking as I always do with family but never getting out of control with it.  I came across some really shitty weed halfway through the week, smoked it and didn't even get stoned (I'm way too used to that sweet sweet PNW bud  ) so as far as I'm concerned I didn't have any weed or kratom all week.  As for the kratom withdrawals, aside from cravings, and maybe a tad of manageable anxiety and insomnia the first couple days, *there was no withdrawal!*  No cold sweats, no diarrhea, no typical withdrawal symptoms except for MAYBE the first day.  The first day was stressful and tiresome as always, overstimulating and exhausting, I always have had trouble sleeping and always have had a weird appetite, so I definitely felt way 'off' the first day or two.  I had a lot of trouble sleeping, felt anxious and didn't have much appetite.  However, as the week progressed, I started to feel much better and then by about day 4 or 5, I can honestly say I felt any and all 'symptoms' completely disappear, and I had a sudden desire to "maybe never take anything ever again while I still feel this way about it" 

Obviously, when we got home, one of the first things I did was shovel a hefty kratom dose into my face, but I felt ok about my usage because I had just done what seemed impossible.  I just basically stopped cold turkey for over a week and was just fine!!  On this basis, I started using every day again, justifying it with "oh I know I'm able to quit anytime I want so it doesn't matter".  Since then I have came across a new strain of kratom that is nearly twice as potent as the strain I've been using all along, and at first I fooled myself into thinking this stronger strain would help me use less.  Nope, it was so good it just got that much more addicting.  

Here I am a couple months after my trip to NY, currently using just under 20g of this new potent Maeng Da strain in 2 doses every single day.  I've taken only a single day off here and there when I run out and don't get my next order soon enough, and I have to say, these days are the hardest than ever.  Getting up in the morning, knowing that I have no kratom for the day and won't be getting any until tomorrow night....drives me NUTS until I tear open that glorious Priority Mail envelope...  Today is one of those days, and I'm furiously refreshing the USPS tracking # page hoping that maybe, just maybe, somehow the delivery truck was turbocharged and got here a day early....knowing that it won't.  I think it's knowing that it's just barely out of reach is what makes it so tantalizing, however when you know you won't have it and can't have it for a long period of time, it somehow gets simpler.

To end my rambling, I'll simply say this:  Us human beings need something in our lives to maintain that balance, otherwise we go crazy.  How many folks jump off bridges, shoot themselves, shoot others, or just simply 'lose it' from this near-impossible daily struggle we call life?  I'm not saying we all have a psycho killer within us, however of those good people who end their own lives due to overwhelming stress and anxiety, do you think any of them thought to themselves "one day, I might kill myself"?  No, it just sorta happens, people snap, they lose touch, the world beats down on them and there is seemingly no escape.  Often, the only 'escape' folks know of are the ones that are advertised and allowed to them, like alcohol and cigarettes, which are hardly good 'escapes' at all.  Luckily, we're smart enough to know there is a better way, and with things like kratom and cannabis, a person can find relief, and have something to always look forward to, while at the same time not have that same relief be something that's slowly killing them anyway.  Kratom is an extremely effective and low-cost/risk aid that I think anyone could find a use for in their lives, especially when the tough gets just a little too tough.  A few years back I started to really lose hope in life, the daily corporate grind was really starting to weigh on me and I was starting to feel lost and hopeless, as if the rest of my life was not really worth struggling for.  I'm not going to say kratom was THE cure, however these days I uphold a far more positive and hopeful outlook on life.  Instead of getting up in the morning dreading work, I can at least wake up and think "Oh yeah, I get to have some kratom!"  Then I find myself bounding out of bed, prepare myself a bottle of my trusty helper, and then within the hour I feel myself actually EXCITED to get to work!!  Then, I have a great day, smiling at everyone, enjoying my job, feeling thankful that I have the job I have, and looking forward to what the future brings.  There absolutely no reason to cut this completely out of my life, I simply need to moderate my usage so I don't subject myself to these awful 'in-between' days.  Then, I think the balance of life will be within my grasp. 


Just felt like weighing in on this thread.  Hopefully some of you going through kratom w/d's can feel a little better about it.  Just know it won't last very long!!


----------



## phactor

I am a bit confused Seattle_Stanger, you say that you felt that you had little to no withdrawals and then posted that you were anxious, low appetite, had trouble sleeping etc. Sounds like your taper was effective at reducing the symptoms and you had a good mind frame/were distracted. I would be cautious about using any type of substance to bring your life "balance", even Kratom. Just be careful about rationalization... some of us are very good at it. I am a master of it myself.

Since your trip, have you gone more then a day without Kratom? I wonder how your body would react without a three month taper.


----------



## Seattle_Stranger

phactor said:


> I am a bit confused Seattle_Stanger, you say that you felt that you had little to no withdrawals and then posted that you were anxious, low appetite, had trouble sleeping etc. Sounds like your taper was effective at reducing the symptoms and you had a good mind frame/were distracted. I would be cautious about using any type of substance to bring your life "balance", even Kratom. Just be careful about rationalization... some of us are very good at it. I am a master of it myself.
> 
> Since your trip, have you gone more then a day without Kratom? I wonder how your body would react without a three month taper.



Now that I re-read my post, yeah it's certainly a ramble and confusing, sorry about that.  

I had the intention of tapering over 3 months, but never was able to bring myself to do it, so I basically had no taper at all.  The very last week right before my trip, I severely decreased my usage but definitely didn't stop.  I didn't get any lasting or severe w/d symptoms, simply a bit of discomfort the first day or two of the trip.  Like I said, I have always been a severe insomniac, my appetite has always been funky, and I always have been very anxiety prone, these kind of things even occur while on kratom occasionally, however a lot less often.  Usually when I travel, it's a given that I will have tons of trouble sleeping, my appetite will diminish and I will probably have some level of anxiety, ALWAYS when I travel.  This trip was no different, except maybe the simple cravings for kratom made things a tad worse....but still it was a cake walk compared to what I was bracing myself for!  I was expecting diarrhea, nausea, stomach issues, no sleep at all, no appetite at all, extreme anxiety and depression, body aches, restlessness, cold sweats, feverish symptoms, absolutely NONE of this occurred.

Since I returned from the trip, I have gone a handful of days without it here and there, usually no more than two days without it.  Yesterday was one of those days, and admittedly it was hard.  A lot of stressful/depressing things culminated that day, including work issues, relationship issues, and other upsetting things that had to be dealt with, which resulted in me feeling extremely emotional and just generally having a really bad day....on top of not having kratom since Sunday.  I felt very depressed and upset, was missing my family terribly, feeling guilty for having moved so far away, etc..  Today, I woke up feeling just fine.  

Having said all that, my point is simply that YES kratom withdrawals do exist, however NO they are not severe and NO they do not last much more than a day or two.  I can't imagine it being much worse than drinking lots of coffee every day and then suddenly stopping completely.  Yeah, you might be a little 'off' for a day or two but that's about the worst of it!


As far as my 'self-medicating', yes, I understand what you're saying about being careful with that.  I certainly try to be, but I am also fairly lenient with kratom.  I used to be very strict with myself, only allowing one dose per day, and only allowing use every OTHER day, meaning there is at least day without kratom between usages.  Back when I did this, there certainly was a great balance, tolerance never seemed to set in much and I had absolutely no problem if I for some reason had to go a few days without it.  I would like to return to such a regimen, and even have a goal of using even less of it, to the point where it completely returns to being a purely recreational even-now-and-then kind of thing that it should be.


----------



## herbavore

There is a huge difference in enabling and support--believe me, it is one that I am very intimate with. Support is not enabling the person to go on doing what they are doing by making it easier in any way for he or she to continue. Draw your boundaries clearly. Statements of faith in the person's ability to change and heal and recover translate to support. Believing that your complicity in a mess is going to keep a person alive is faulty thinking. Addiction makes for masters at manipulation. But it is up to you not to be manipulated. As far as using yourself, that is completely up to you so don't fool yourself into thinking it is because she wants you to. I think you should start your own thread for this and get support before you get in too deep.


----------



## Fresco

<snip -  I don't know if recommending another kratom substance to a person addicted to kratom is the best advice.>


----------



## b4rd

i know youre not supposed to promote drug use, but maybe you should get prescribed suboxone. it has made me take a complete 180 in my life. i have a job. i am doing well. be on a legally prescribed opiate for a year, THEN try and try to make your life better . i dunno . opiates have ruined my life. but maybe they can fix yours. then quit. i feel you.  its hard shit


----------



## phactor

b4rd said:


> i know youre not supposed to promote drug use, but maybe you should get prescribed suboxone. it has made me take a complete 180 in my life. i have a job. i am doing well. be on a legally prescribed opiate for a year, THEN try and try to make your life better . i dunno . opiates have ruined my life. but maybe they can fix yours. then quit. i feel you.  its hard shit




Many around here will agree that a difference exists between Doctor Prescribed medications used correctly vs other non-prescribed substances. Its more of an issue of common sense.

Suboxone might be a little extreme for kratom though, unless the habit is a very very large one. A quick taper and then some comfort meds (clonidine, atarax, sleeping pill and maybe a few benzos) should be enough to get off relatively comfortably.


----------



## CvB

hello i am very new here. i have taken kratom in the past and it worked well. recently ive been trying to kick suboxone and was wondering if anybody could pm me with a very good stfong source.  i have used a good soure before but would like opinions.  thank u.


----------



## phactor

CvB said:


> hello i am very new here. i have taken kratom in the past and it worked well. recently ive been trying to kick suboxone and was wondering if anybody could pm me with a very good stfong source.  i have used a good soure before but would like opinions.  thank u.




We are not allowed to give out sources. Many (including myself) have gotten off of Suboxone by slowly tapering and then having the doctor prescribe comfort meds. I do not think many would recommend using Kratom to get off of Suboxone.


----------



## AlphaMethylPhenyl

Kratom is a powerful drug. Have no misconceptions: the addiction/withdrawal can be just as worse as that of a powerful opiate.


----------



## phactor

Friend of mine just told me that he felt about 3 days of withdrawal after only using daily for about 4 weeks. He has withdrawn from other opiates before, which might have made him more susceptible. 

Just want to put that out there.

Also, If people have questions for him I can probably ask him.


----------



## WayFarLost

Idk if this belongs here but I know the guy that invented (or atleast the main distibutor) of kratom. His name was Dylan Harrison. He also owned the mr.niceguy company and sold bath salts and kava. Hes currently being hunted by the FBI for smuggling sex slaves out of america. I highly doubt hes in america, or that he will be found. 

I used to work for him (had no idea about the sex slaves thing until recently) in his factories and offices. The stuff he makes is disgusting. All of it is mixed on the floor, a floor thats never cleaned and always has rat doppings on it. He literally sprays the kratom with poison. The mr.niceguy aswell, and with acetone. All of his stuff is truly disgusting and I hope this helps some people quit using.


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## podsnomo

Well Nancy etal., It's been a while.

I hope this finds all of you well.

I've been tapering my kratom use for a week now, down from 12+g 4X/day to about 3g 3X/day.

I've had some chills, aches, more sweating than normal, but since I've been taking one of my small doses just before bed, I haven't had trouble sleeping yet. I'm almost out of kratom. Down to maybe 40g. Yesterday I got a concussion by bonking my head on a closet door. Weird way to get concussed.

Anyway, they tried to give me a Lortab at the ER (my gf and parents and doctor all said I should go to hospital based on my symptoms of headache, nausea, ringing ears, etc.) I refused the lortab, but they gave me script for 14 Tylenol3. It's almost 3 p.m. and so far today I've just had one 3g dose of kratom. I was still having WDs, mild as they were, and took one of the pils to see what it's do. The WDs have vanished. Right now I'm hoping this lasts for a looong time, like most of the day. If it does, then using a half to a whole tablet of these T3s could be useful in my taper. I've already decided not to order anymore kratom, but get those ideas like, damn man, it'd sure be easy to, ya know, just order a small amount compared to normal, and keep taking it, just in moderation... But I know myself too well. If I let that thinking prevail I'll eventually be back to using a lot and spending too much money on it. I'm glad I never went for the extracts.

Anyway, it's been a long road since back in the spring when I started my taper from pods, and now my taper from kratom, and maybe it's a gift from the universe to have a very limited supply of codeine to help with the taper. I just hope it doesn't make it worse. 

I hope everyone is well and that bumping this thread gets it going again.

Peace and love to all,
pods


----------



## podsnomo

WayFarLost said:


> Idk if this belongs here but I know the guy that invented (or atleast the main distibutor) of kratom. His name was Dylan Harrison. He also owned the mr.niceguy company and sold bath salts and kava. Hes currently being hunted by the FBI for smuggling sex slaves out of america. I highly doubt hes in america, or that he will be found.
> 
> I used to work for him (had no idea about the sex slaves thing until recently) in his factories and offices. The stuff he makes is disgusting. All of it is mixed on the floor, a floor thats never cleaned and always has rat doppings on it. He literally sprays the kratom with poison. The mr.niceguy aswell, and with acetone. All of his stuff is truly disgusting and I hope this helps some people quit using.



I find this almost impossible to believe. If someone is spraying kratom with poison then where are the deaths and hospital visits? SO many of us have ben on kratom for years or more without health consequences, just money and life consequences. My source was good, clean kratom. My body would know if something else was in that stuff. As much as I took, if it had been sprayed with anything dangerous, I'd be dead. But I'm not ordering anymore. I'm on my last batch and dwindling down on a taper.

Thanks for the info anyway WFL. On this topic though, I think you may be way far lost.


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## silentcowboy

Ive still been keeping an eye on this thread  Because I know someday I will be there. Im glad to hear from you pods. Can I ask what strain your tapering with? Ive been thinking that kratom WD effects differ from strain to strain. Example: Bali (more opiate like) might have a more physical WD, compared to Maeng Da or Swite Sumatra (stimulating strains) that might have a more psychological WD. I think the different alkaloid profiles make kratom very interesting (similar to strains of weed haha). Its just a thought, and feedback on the idea?


----------



## podsnomo

I've been mixing up which strains I use so much I wouldn't be able to answer that. I used maeng da a lot while I was dosing freely. Now I'm tapering on bali mostly but still have a few grams of white vein sumatran. I feel like it's probably such minor differences and would differ from person to person so much that tapering with whatever you've got is the way to go, at least for me. Perhaps a switch or not a switch will do better for one person or another, but no matter what, if you've been active in any kind of habit, you're going to experience some WDs when you quit. Reducing them is good idea, but for me, if I over think it or try to get out of WDs altogether, I just keep using, because really, the only way to avoid WDs is to keep using.


----------



## Fresco

podsnomo said:


> I've been mixing up which strains I use so much I wouldn't be able to answer that. I used maeng da a lot while I was dosing freely. Now I'm tapering on bali mostly but still have a few grams of white vein sumatran. I feel like it's probably such minor differences and would differ from person to person so much that tapering with whatever you've got is the way to go, at least for me. Perhaps a switch or not a switch will do better for one person or another, but no matter what, if you've been active in any kind of habit, you're going to experience some WDs when you quit. Reducing them is good idea, but for me, if I over think it or try to get out of WDs altogether, I just keep using, because really, the only way to avoid WDs is to keep using.


Did you try the stem powder for WD's??  And if so, how well did it work for you??


----------



## podsnomo

Damn, that slipped my mind. I should. I did try to order some a while back but my CC company wouldn't process the payment because it was from a state )TX) that was probe to fraud. Kinda scared me off of it at the time. But there were some other, not as well priced, vendors for stem powder. I' might look into that. But as it is a Saturday, I can't order til Monday, making my order get here Tues at the earliest, and I may not have enough kratom to last until then, so I may just suck it up and suffer through.


----------



## Fresco

podsnomo said:


> Damn, that slipped my mind. I should. I did try to order some a while back but my CC company wouldn't process the payment because it was from a state )TX) that was probe to fraud. Kinda scared me off of it at the time. But there were some other, not as well priced, vendors for stem powder. I' might look into that. But as it is a Saturday, I can't order til Monday, making my order get here Tues at the earliest, and I may not have enough kratom to last until then, so I may just suck it up and suffer through.


Stem powder works great for me, I can just go to work and not feel any WD's.  So now I toggle between 1 week on stem, and the next week on regular kratom.  You beat tolerance that way and never have to experience WD's


----------



## podsnomo

That might work for me except I just want off of it all for good. I'm an alcoholic who was also addicted to poppy pods for about 3+ years. If I stay using something I'll eventually get worse. It's different for everyone, but for me, I now know that I am locked in the grips of a progressive and fatal disease, and my only real option for a good life is a daily reprieve from my alcoholism and addiction contingent on the maintenance of my spiritual condition. It's tough right now, but I'm determined to make it through. I've seen how happy my friends in AA are, and I want what they have. I'll stay miserable if I stay using. I'm often jealous of people who can use and drink without the consequences I have experienced, and knowing that my conseuences will worsen if I stay using, I have to be free. Good luck to you and thanks for the info. If I find it absolutely necessary I may get some stem powder. Right now I'm planning to stick with my fairly rapid taper plan and use loperamide and other OTC helpers once I run out.


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## podsnomo

Naaaaaannnnnccyyyyy where are you!?!?!?


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## andyn6990

Heya pods, im currently struggling like you as u know i got clean from kratom but started taking again a couple months ago so im now hooked again and trying to taper (ill have to look into the stem powder thingy).Im also an alcoholic and a recovering stimulant user im now nearly a year of stims so thats something i can be proud of i suppose . I ordered some kratom last weekend as a special saturday delivery and it didnt turn up till the monday so ended up in withdrawals :-( , so on the sunday night couldnt take the restlessness anymore and went pub and got drunk which i then regretted in the morning , I like you am in this disease with you but im gonna fight it all the way and know 1 ill be free and happy again ,im quite scared for my future and always worry which is quite annoying i think its due to my high anxiety, Ive got a therapist appointment for that on the 28th of this month so thats another bonus , Im thinking of going to some na/aa meetings soon, im also currently doing a program called addaction which is a kind of meeting thingy with a therapist at a centre witch also does group meetings ! I really like this thread and will continue to update my progress , I hope your doin good


----------



## euphoricc

i never thought i wish u alll the best im fight suboxone im back on its hell i have been thru sub wds for 2 months who da fucckk can be sick for 2 months???? i cant i have a 2 yr old and a job i also race cars so i got back on sub ive used kratom wen i was in sub wd it helped alot! neva knew it could be addicting for my own mind.,what u like about it to make u addicted u dont nod ive never got a coke high well ive never got high from kratom period prob cause ive been on dope the real deal i dunno but why it so great ??? i enjoyed it cause of sb wds are horrid and last for weeks


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## Fresco

andyn6990 said:


> Heya pods, im currently struggling like you as u know i got clean from kratom but started taking again a couple months ago so im now hooked again and trying to taper (ill have to look into the stem powder thingy).Im also an alcoholic and a recovering stimulant user im now nearly a year of stims so thats something i can be proud of i suppose . I ordered some kratom last weekend as a special saturday delivery and it didnt turn up till the monday so ended up in withdrawals :-( , so on the sunday night couldnt take the restlessness anymore and went pub and got drunk which i then regretted in the morning , I like you am in this disease with you but im gonna fight it all the way and know 1 ill be free and happy again ,im quite scared for my future and always worry which is quite annoying i think its due to my high anxiety, Ive got a therapist appointment for that on the 28th of this month so thats another bonus , Im thinking of going to some na/aa meetings soon, im also currently doing a program called addaction which is a kind of meeting thingy with a therapist at a centre witch also does group meetings ! I really like this thread and will continue to update my progress , I hope your doin good


Have you tried using kratom stem powder to get off the kratom without any withdrawals??

Stuff works great!!


----------



## cleanintx

I have been clean from kratom and alcohol going on 12 days . Just wanted to thank everyone for this thread it has been an inspiration !


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## Fresco

cleanintx said:


> I have been clean from kratom and alcohol going on 12 days . Just wanted to thank everyone for this thread it has been an inspiration !


How many days of kratom withdrawals did you go through?? And what did you take to alleviate it??


----------



## cleanintx

physically speaking the worst was over by day 10 but the physical side is not totally over it is still coming and going,just less every day . I have avoided stress at all costs and tried my best to think positive. Mentally speaking I am sure this will last for sometime . A profound sadness keeps coming and going. i just keep telling myself this 2 will pass. I have been drinking alot of water a taking vitamins. I have found when it is almost unbearable a small dose of valium helps. My doctor is fully aware of what is going on and is really helping me cope with everything. I will post more later tonight when i get back near my computer.


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## Hamachi

Great thread!  I am a kratom user for the past 6 years. Using 1 kilo of loose leaves every month to month and a half. Kratom has done wonders for me, got me focused and excel in my personal and professional life. I've been thinkIng about quitting for over a year now. The effects are almost nonexistent at this point, but I keep taking it bc I feel indifferent when I don't.  I just ordered a kilo of leaves and powder recently and I am planning on cutting my intake by 50%.  Its tough especially at work and home bc I am not as 
Motivaiated if I dont take kratom. I do miss the kratom when my tolerance isnt as high, but I am lo


----------



## Hamachi

Great thread!  I am a kratom user for the past 6 years. Using 1 kilo of loose leaves every month to month and a half. Kratom has done wonders for me, got me focused and excel in my personal and professional life. I've been thinkIng about quitting for over a year now. The effects are almost nonexistent at this point, but I keep taking it bc I feel indifferent when I don't.  I just ordered a kilo of leaves and powder recently and I am planning on cutting my intake by 50%.  Its tough especially at work and home bc I am not as 
Motivaiated if I dont take kratom. I do miss the kratom when my tolerance isnt as high, but I am loOking forward to not taking as much. I took 3 disses at 15 grams each does this morning from 7 am to 11am of the Thai, but again no effect. I plan on updating you guys to my status and hope that it will inspire and help others.


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## Fresco

cleanintx said:


> physically speaking the worst was over by day 10 but the physical side is not totally over it is still coming and going,just less every day . I have avoided stress at all costs and tried my best to think positive. Mentally speaking I am sure this will last for sometime . A profound sadness keeps coming and going. i just keep telling myself this 2 will pass. I have been drinking alot of water a taking vitamins. I have found when it is almost unbearable a small dose of valium helps. My doctor is fully aware of what is going on and is really helping me cope with everything. I will post more later tonight when i get back near my computer.


Awesome dude!!

Stay strong


----------



## podsnomo

Well, I've been with this thread from the beginning of it, and I was using kratom when it started back in early June. Now it's late September and for all my talk of tapering and shit, I'm still stuck on the kratom. I got on the kratom after successfully tapering down from a very large pods habit. I've been reading over my posts, telling other people how to cope and giving them encouragement, and now I',m thinking, "well, you dumb shit, you're still hooked on kratom." I think it's because kratom is seemingly so benign and that I felt a sense of accomplishment from getting off the pods that I've let myself flounder on the kratom. I need to be free of everything. I'm in recovery for my alcoholism and I'm keeping the kratom a secret from EVERYone. About a month after getting off pods I told my gf about it. Shit storm. She was so mad and stayed mad for so long, because for a year I was "sober" but using poppy pods. Now I'm "sober" but using kratom. It's kinda hard to work a spiritual program with a monkey on your back and a big fucking secret. 

And it's easy for me to think about quitting when I've got kratom in me and am feeling OK. Then, when it starts to get bad, and the WDs are getting worse, I lose my resolve, and take more kratom. Then I decide to taper on what kratom I have left, but don't taper down far enough or fast enough for what I have left, then I order more, and when I get that big order I tell myself I'll just have a couple days of using however much I'd like, and then I'll taper, and then I'm down to less than half what I ordered, maybe 4 oz or so, and I start to taper with that...wash rinse repeat. 

I want an easy way out and I know there isn't one. So maybe being honest at least here on this board will help me face his demon and slay it once and for all. I want to be free of this shit so badly.


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## cleanintx

Thanks ! It is getting better everyday !  One thing I can say with 100 % certainty is that kicking kratom has been the hardest thing I have ever done ! In my opinion it is easier on the physical side compared to H or a heavy oxy habit or even a heavy codone habit (The physical part of the kick is still horrible) For me the mental part of the kick is worse then anything I have ever been through .


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## cleanintx

I know how you feel . I tried to taper over and over again only to give myself bonus doses and so on . When I finally decided to quit I did not taper just sat back and waited for the beat down. It sucks real bad but once the worst is over you will start to feel things you have not felt in a while . It is amazing what your own bodies drugs feel like at first . I did a light workout on day 10 of being clean and had the heaviest endorphin high i have ever felt . It was by far he best feeling I have ever had . Stay the coarse you will feel so good about yourself.


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## podsnomo

cleanintx, how was during those hard days? could you go to work? did you just stay at home and suffer? I work part time and could probably lose my job if I had to take more than a couple days off. did you use loperamide or any other helper meds, OTC stuff, or the like?


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## cleanintx

I took ten days off from work and just watched movie after movie. The only med 
I used to help get me through was valium. I did take alot of vitamins and tried to flush my body as much as possible. Lots of water . I have gone the lopermide route before and it does help but this time I just decided to suffer and take the beating. I slept on and off most of the first week or so . I have never had problems sleeping even when im very sick so the insomnia never really hit me. I personally think that if you where to stop on a wednesday night or even wednesday morning and work wednesday then take thursday and friday off and not go back to work till the next monday it would be bearable especially with lopermide. The hard days sucked my whole body was drained and sore so i just layed down and tuned out. Sometimes my job is very physical and I had to work for close to 2 hours on day 10 and it felt great!Got my natural endorphins going (i forgot what that felt like) I'm still dealing with the sadness that comes with stepping off opiates but i know that it is only temporary. I just keep telling myself that this will be over soon enough.  What I do know is that I already feel way better physically and feel much sharper without kratom . It isnt easy just dont give up when its at its worst .


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## podsnomo

Well, that's good and bad news cleaninTX. The 10 days part is bad news. I hope to be back to work before that long. I just came from my sponsor's house and I told him about the kratom. Long story short and many details omitted for now: I have to quit. NOW. I called my gf on the way home, told her, and I just finished flushing the rest of the kratom I had down the toilet. I have 100 grams of stem powder that already shipped. I emailed them about canceling it or sending it back for a refund, but if I can't, I'll just flush that $30 down the fucking toilet too. I'll have to call in for however long I'll have to call in. I just have to get straight with the world, and get clean so I can live the life I wanna live, be useful to others, and be able to be totally honest with my gf. I love her dearly and hope to marry her one day, but I have to be clean, spiritually fit, and totally honest if I have a chance of making it. 

It's not the kratom that's the problem. It's the symptom. The problem is I'm still behaving as if I'm in control and I'm not. I've reached another level of surrender and I am on my way to a free and clean life. 

A few nights ago I was in a restaurant, feeling the effects of early withdrawal, having the kratom on the back of mind, thinking about quitting (as always), and yet thinking about taking a small dose when I got home to help sleep. I had talked on here about getting clean as getting to the other side. Two songs came on in a row in that restaurant. The first was that song by The Doors where he keeps singing "break on through to the other side" and the second was "What a Wonderful World". It was a sign. I don't believe in coincidences anymore. 

So, my next how-many-ever days are going to be pretty rotten. Here I fucking go though. Here I go. Thanks for your support. I've got some support IRL now, but I'll keep coming back here too because you guys know the kratom beast, and I've never met anyone IRL who does. 

I love you all.

PNM

"You can add to my life but you can't take away. Because I'm not trading with you. I love you." --anon.


----------



## podsnomo

cleanintx said:


> I personally think that if you where to stop on a wednesday night or even wednesday morning and work wednesday then take thursday and friday off and not go back to work till the next monday it would be bearable especially with lopermide. The hard days sucked my whole body was drained and sore so i just layed down and tuned out. Sometimes my job is very physical and I had to work for close to 2 hours on day 10 and it felt great!Got my natural endorphins going (i forgot what that felt like) I'm still dealing with the sadness that comes with stepping off opiates but i know that it is only temporary. I just keep telling myself that this will be over soon enough.  What I do know is that I already feel way better physically and feel much sharper without kratom . It isnt easy just dont give up when its at its worst .



Well, it's Wednesday night, and like I just said above: Here I go.


----------



## silentcowboy

^ Good luck man, its gonna be a psychological test for ya, you can beat that shit man... alcohol and pods are much harder habits to kick, just a week of discomfort and you'll be free. Ill be watchin this thread or you can PM me if you need to man.


----------



## podsnomo

Thanks silentc. I hope to be back to work on Monday. I'm going to call off today and see how tomorrow goes. One day at a time. I've got a support group in place: my sponsor, some of my AA brothers, and my gf, and of course, you guys. 

It's only about 16 hours or so now. So it should start getting more interesting this afternoon. Then, who knows? It's different for everybody. But I kicked booze and pods, so I've got some capacity to face the shit end of the stick. Here we go!

Thanks all for your support.


----------



## podsnomo

20 hours. Chills intensifying. Sweats coming on. Just started sneezing. Legs beginning to ache. Anxiety coming up, but I called off work, so that's not making me insane right now knowing I can stay safe here.


----------



## THCified

^ It's not that bad for me, but worse than i thought. Did Opioids on/off for 7-8 months, mostly Kratom and Tramadol/Odt. Last Stem & Vein dose was 26h ago, today @ work was fookin' shite. 

This is my 1st ever withdrawal...felt like a human rollercoaster today, switchin' between depressive states, feelings of joy and A SHITLOAD of hornyness 

I wasn't even that horny with 15! Now i'm laughing about it, tomorrow...we'll see!

Pleasing myself with some MXE now


----------



## Fresco

podsnomo said:


> 20 hours. Chills intensifying. Sweats coming on. Just started sneezing. Legs beginning to ache. Anxiety coming up, but I called off work, so that's not making me insane right now knowing I can stay safe here


You can do it!!!  You can do it!!!


----------



## podsnomo

thanks fresco!

about 26 hours now. I got some bad stomach stuff going on a few hours ago. 5 pills, 10 mg I think, of loperamide hushed that and the chills lessened some. I made it to an AA meeting, copped to my sobriety date, got a rousing round of applause for that, which felt great. this program is what is keeping from going out to get a bottle of vodka right now. 

i have no appetite, so I've done a couple of shakes today. 1 large banana, some vanilla ice cream, one of those nutrition drinks for old people, and some protein powder. man, does that help. i read somewhere about our brains building things out of protein and to eat high protein food while detoxing and WDing. Maybe it's just that I ate something. I don't think my stomach could handle the amount of regular food it would take to get all those nutrients and all that protein, so the shakes will help. 

My legs are restless and I hope I can sleep tonight. I feel tired, but I also feel that familiar resltlessness that has kept me up before. We shall see. thanks all for your support.

Nancy, I wish you'd come back.

peace,
pods-and-kratom-no-more


----------



## THCified

Slept 3h last night... I feel really fucked. 

Now it's time to go to work


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## podsnomo

it's midnight here. rls. no sleeping for me either.


----------



## THCified

Man, today's working day was even worse than yesterdays.

Seems like the MXE took the edge off it, but now my hands and feet feel tingly and i'm tired as hell. Loading my vaporizer now and head-dive into my couch, hoping for a bit of relaxation.

Planning on doing a workout at the gym today, feel like i need to get my ass up...later


----------



## podsnomo

good luck thc. I just got up and after tossing around for many hours I too got about 3 hrs sleep. luckily I don't have to work today or the next 2 days. I hope to be back to  it by Monday. I'm in the US eastern time zone. Are you on GMT?


----------



## cleanintx

How are you feeling? are you getting tired at random intervals yet?


----------



## THCified

GMT, yes. 

Slept another 3h approx. and just came back from the gym. My heart rate is trough the roof - somewhere between 165-185 the whole workout. Crazy...

...but i'm feeling much better now


----------



## Fresco

podsnomo said:


> it's midnight here. rls. no sleeping for me either.


If you can locate them in your area, try to find:

Melatonin 5mg
Doxylamine 25mg

Take those 2 and you'll sleep better


----------



## podsnomo

thanks fresco I will. I've taken melatonin before but don't know what doxylamine is. I'll look it up. Oh, it's in unisom. I have Diphenhydramine. Which is benadryl. I'll get some melatonin, but not sure about unisom. I take the benadryl during the day to lessen the eyes watering, sneezes and to hopefully calm me a bit, since it's the same thing as a sleep aid. I actually bought the one marked as a sleep aid, but it's the exact same ingredient as benadryl. I am prescribed 1.5mg of klonopin/day for anxiety and 10 mg ambien each night for sleep. But I've been on those forever, so they helped while I was using, but now that I'm not they don't seem to do much at all, at least while I'm withdrawing/detoxing. Yesterday instead of taking my clonazapam at 3 regular intervals, I took one in the a.m. and held off on the other two to take with my ambien, hoping that would knock me out. It didn't. I know I can't make a habit out of this, but when the klonipin/ambien combo did zilch for sleep, I got a pint of vodka and drank the whole damn thing. Now that knocked me out. I'm mildly hungover, but must still have a pretty heavy tolerance even though it had been a pretty long time since I'd last drank. Anyway, even with the mild headache right now, I feel a million times better for having slept. Two nights in a row of rls and near zero sleep might have sent me over the edge. I won't be drinking tonight though, and if I have another night of no sleep, then I do. One I can take. Two in a row and I'll need to find a solution.

I'm going to get melatonin though. Fresco, do you mention those two because they work better in combo? 

Thanks,
pnm


----------



## THCified

May i ask what opioids you've consumed along with Kratom and for how long?


----------



## podsnomo

I was eating poppy pods and steadily increasing how much I ate for about 3 years. I switched to the kratom when I got down to 1g of pod grounds per day, about 2 days before I ate my last pods. Now I'm on day 3 of no kratom. Last night I had to put a pint of vodka in me to get to sleep. I actually feel better today. But I won't be drinking anymore. I think the worst may be over now. I'm still taking loperamide. 

Not sure that answers your question. Aside from some hydro once or twice, I only took kratom by itself and only for relief from withdrawals to feel more normal and have energy. Now I'm pretty beat down physically but psychologically I am getting better and spiritually I'm using all the resources I have.


----------



## Fresco

podsnomo said:


> I'm going to get melatonin though. Fresco, *do you mention those two because they work better in combo? *
> 
> Thanks,
> pnm


Yes. most definitely.  

Dont take the ambien with those 2 though, that might be a bit much.  If 5mg melatonin doesnt work you can take 10mg.

And I made a mistake, it should be 25mg doxylamine succinate, not 15mg


----------



## podsnomo

Fresco said:


> Yes. most definitely.
> 
> Dont take the ambien with those 2 though, that might be a bit much.  If 5mg melatonin doesnt work you can take 10mg.
> 
> And I made a mistake, it should be 25mg doxylamine succinate, not 15mg



It took 1mg klonopin, 10mg ambien, and a pint of 100 proof vodka to put me down last night. Hopefully tonight I can just add melatonin to the klonopin and amien to get rest. If not, I'll just have another sleepless night and try the dox suc the following night. Thanks for the advice. I'm feeling a bit better today. Even gonna have dinner, or try to, with my gf tonight. We'll see how that goes.


----------



## THCified

Pods, then you've taken far more, for a even longer time than me -putting aside that you also ingested poppy pods; me just the things mentioned above, poppy pods 2x in total- so it's no wonder your wd is much stronger than mine's.

Feel better with every day, and i think the "worst" (it really wasn't that bad at all) is over. Slept nice and well as usual, woke up a bit more often but that's all


----------



## podsnomo

Well, thc, the worst is over for me too. In retrospect it doesn't seem that bad. But a couple of nights, sleepy as ehll, but unable to sleep, and just dying for something to knock me out with nothing around that would (except my klonopin script which I can't afford to run out of early) was some serious psychological torture. I remember feeling like I was going over the edge. Didn't get suicidal though. I took 10mg of melatonin last night along with some valerian root. To my surprise, I got sleepy! I couldn't believe it. I took my ambien like normal just to ensure a good night's rest and bam! I woke up rested, and I'm FREE from illicit shit. Now the only thing I'm on is my script for sleep and my small script for anxiety. The good thing about those is it's not me calling the shots on them. I can't just take it anytime I want. It's up to my doctor, and when I see him next, I'm going to ask about tapering off of that shit too. But for now, the big deal for me is, I can look the world dead in the eye for the first time in a LONG time. I have had something to hide, drinking/pods/kratom for a long effing time. Now I'm not hiding anything from anyone and it feels like a million pounds just lifted off of me.

I have been trying to get free of pods and/or kratom for over 6 months now. And I'm fucking FREE! Makes me wanna dance. Oh yeah!


----------



## Fresco

^^^^  I told you melatonin would knock you out


----------



## podsnomo

You did. Thanks for that. I got the 10mg, taking no chances on another restless night.


----------



## stardust.hero

I also really love chamomile tea at night. It's not something strong that will knock you out but using it in combination right before bed it has a calming aroma and taste. It will help soften the edges.


----------



## Fresco

podsnomo said:


> You did. Thanks for that. I got the 10mg, taking no chances on another restless night


And if you wake up in middle of the night you can take another 5 or 10mg melatonin.

If you really wanna sleep well try to score some doxylamine over the internet or drug store.  Combined with melatonin it works wonderfully. Ebay sells that shit very cheap in family size packages


----------



## THCified

Nice to hear that you're fine, Pods 

Me too btw. Today i couldn't resist (no urge, just appetite ) and allowed myself a tiny dose of Thai Kratom (3g), and it feels so nice. Seems like my tolerance has dropped a fair bit, much more than i thought.

But i'll stay with that one dose for today (as also the rest of the week).


----------



## Fresco

@ podsnomo

How would you rank kratom withdrawal on a scale of 1 to 10??  

And lets assume heroin and methadone are 10/10


----------



## podsnomo

Fresco said:


> @ podsnomo
> 
> How would you rank kratom withdrawal on a scale of 1 to 10??
> 
> And lets assume heroin and methadone are 10/10



I wish I could answer that confidently. I know I've heard of H WDs as being curled up on the floor with stuff squirting out both ends in complete misery and agony. I think these people should go to hospital. If that's a 10 then the kratom (physically) was a 2-3. Mentally/psychologically though there were a few rough hours at night mostly during the first 2 nights that ranked up there around a 9, being close to some of the worst psychological torture I've known, and believe me, I've known some. 

Maybe I should describe my CT attempt with pods, my taper success with pods, and my CT quit from kratom to give you an idea of my experience.

When I tried to CT pods I was completely miserable, but not like what I said I'd heard of before. I had bad chills, soaking sweats alternating with freezing, burning/watering eyes, sneezes, runny nose, shits, stomach cramps, anxiety BAD, muscle spasms, depression, body hurt everywhere, no appetite, general psychological distress, insomnia, RLS, and that combination was a total mindfuck. I made it 5 days like this before I caved and started eating poppy pods again.

Later, When I tapered pods I had minor to moderate versions of all of the above at different times in different combinations with differing levels of severity, but nothing close to the CT quit. If my pods CT attempt was a 10 for me, my taper was 6-7 weeks of mostly a 2, sometimes jumping up briefly to a 4. I treated those symptoms during the taper with OTC things: loperamide, beneadryl, etc.

Then at the end of the taper I was done with feeling like total shit and thought kratom was a good out. I read what I wanted to read: that kratom was no big deal, sorta like caffeine, that it was soooo easy to quit, etc. Well, that wasn't true. And while I was on it I was obsessed with getting off it. But I couldn't. I'd get about 20-24 hours away from my last dose and be wracked with anxiety while feeling lethargic (fucking bizarre), sweating, chills, and couldn't face work or something else I needed to do, so I'd dose again. The way the kratom WDs started were the same as the way the the pods WDs started, so I feared the worst.

But I got fed up with it, flushed my remaining kratom and settled in for what may come. If my CT pods quit was my personal 10, then this was mostly a 5 with a couple brief jumps to to an 8. The first 2 days without were the worst of it, whereas pods WDs were still seeming to get worse on day 5. On day 3 it started to get better. The nights following the first and second full days of being off kratom had me putting down about a pint of 100 proof vodka to get knocked out. And that was on top of 1mg klonopin and 10 mg ambien. After that though, a 10mg melatonin and a 10mg ambien get me solid rest. It's day 6 kratom-free now and I have occasional mild chills, a little heightened anxiety at intervals through the day, but that's about it. I'm taking 10mg loperamide once a day (and sometimes4-6mg later in the day) and that's keeping my guts regular. I'll be taking 2mg fewer tomorrow and will wean off of those according to how my stomach reacts. I think the loperamide was a huge help, but I didn't take huge amounts as I have read others report, but I think they had much larger habits than mine, like big H or hydro or oxy habits. 

So, wow, this was a long answer to short question. Short answer: having not gone through H or m-done WDs (but having read about it) and calling those a 10, I'd say kratom was a 1.2. It really is a walk in the park compared to what many opiate addicts go through, but getting down to that level was the long challenge. In the midst of my kratom WDs I might have called it an 8 though, because the psychological part really had me kind of crazy. But if one soldiers through, at least IME, one finds that kratom WDs are quite doable. 

If you're wanting to get free and clean from kratom, or anyone reading this is, I recommend getting some loperamide, some benadryl, and some easy nutrition. I had no appetite for two and a half days. I made shakes to get nourishment. I'm convinced this was a life saver. I could not have gotten this quality of nutrition if I'd tried to eat regular food. My recipe: 1 banana, 2 scoops vanilla ice cream, a cup or so of soy milk, one bottle of Boost or Ensure+ (they're small), and 3 scoops of a nutritionally enhanced protein powder. This gave me calories and the Boost and protein powder are packed with vitamins, and most importantly, protein. I took a good daily vitamin too once a day. I made a shake 2 or 3 times a day to keep my strength. It worked. 

Long reply I know, but I am so fucking happy to free and clean, to be able to look the world dead in the eye, to have nothing to hide. My mental faculties have improved dramatically. I am happier and more at peace with the world. I think more clearly. My emotions have stabilized.  Instead of waking up craving and weighing out a dose of kratom, I wake up and look forward to a day of sobriety, free and clear. The mild anxiety and other very minor symptoms will continue to fade, but I don't mind them for now. All in all, this has been a small price to pay for my freedom. I was slave to the devil poppy plant, and then to the slightly lesser evil kratom leaf. I walk free now. And I feel I stand good foot taller. 

For over 2 decades I never went longer than a few days without putting something in me, and that was never by choice. I always had the mental obsession to get back to using or drinking. My mental obsession to stay altered by some chemical or drug or drink is gone, and that, my friends, is thanks to my program in AA. 

I'm ____. I'm an alcoholic and addict. I'm sober 6 days. I like it here. I'm staying.


----------



## THCified

podsnomo said:


> My mental faculties have improved dramatically. I am happier and more at peace with the world. I think more clearly. My emotions have stabilized



And that is why i'm failing...why i failed...

Had such a shitty day at work, stressful, a shitload to do, rain was pouring down like it's the end of the world...and guess what? All i wanted was to calm myself down with something, i wasn't even craving for an Opioid, i was craving for anything that changes my mind.

Took another dose of kratom today, also some tilidine, but it's almost not working. I feel it in my head, it's heavy, but i'm not getting calm, i feel no peace of mind...

Seems like tomorrows working day won't be possible without something...i know it's no good, but i'm trapped!


----------



## podsnomo

THCified said:


> And that is why i'm failing...why i failed...
> 
> Had such a shitty day at work, stressful, a shitload to do, rain was pouring down like it's the end of the world...and guess what? All i wanted was to calm myself down with something, i wasn't even craving for an Opioid, i was craving for anything that changes my mind.
> 
> Took another dose of kratom today, also some tilidine, but it's almost not working. I feel it in my head, it's heavy, but i'm not getting calm, i feel no peace of mind...
> 
> Seems like tomorrows working day won't be possible without something...i know it's no good, but i'm trapped!



Have you considered a program like AA? It's all that's kept me going. A couple years ago if you'd have asked me if I would, in 2012, be believing in some sort of higher power that I now actually call god, I might have popped you in the jaw. Now I am trying to live a  spiritual (NOT religious) life. I have a bunch of friends who are happily sober, and I'm working the 12 steps. For years I thought AA and 12 step programs were for those gutter drunks who nearly go into seizures waiting for the liquor store to open. Now I know what being an alcoholic/addict is. It means that of myself, on my own power, I cannot stay sober. I am powerless because of the way I feel when I'm not drinking or using. And the ONLY thing I have found, and I tried everything else I could think of, is a spiritual life, a plan of action through the 12 steps, and a fellowship with men and women who know what it's like to be me. At least, they know about the part that kept me from being me. When I got to AA I hated them all and didn't trust a damn one of them. Now I love them all and am so grateful. Even at the beginning though, when I hated them, something in me perked up and said, "they know". They knew man. They knew. When things were bad and other people would say I should quit or whatever, I'd think, "Yeah I know. I KNOW! I know this looks bad." And if I could have realized what I was really feeling I'd have said, "but if you knew how I felt when I wasn't drinking, when I wasn't using, you wouldn't ask me why I keep doing it." These people knew that. It's a fellowship of people who know precisely why you're not succeeding. 

And I'm not saying you need it. I'm certainly not calling you a loser. Trust me, I'd be the last one on earth to judge you my friend. I'm just saying, if you get to the point where you can't drink/use successfully and you can't not drink/use successfully, then there is a solution. And it doesn't just sober you up. Stopping using is just te price of admission. The plan of action that follows will (would) change your life in ways you cannot begin to imagine. There's no damn point in being sober and miserable. The steps, the fellowship, and the resulting new way of life make being sober a whole new world. I have been/am being rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence I had NO IDEA existed. And I'm sober. Big deal. But I'm sober AND happy. Very happy. And that, my friend, is one big fucking deal to this alcoholic/addict. 

I promise: the trap is an illusion. The solution exists. "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps." AA Big Book pg. 58.

Love to all,
pnm


----------



## ribs76

How many ways can I say thank you?  I have read this thread twice before. Once when I thought about quitting kratom, and once when I first tried. That first attempt lasted about a day. It sucked. It mentally just beat me. 

But here I am with over 48 hours clean from Kratom (I know it's still short but I gotta celebrate a little). I was using a lot, every day. It just crept up on me. Then when I tried to quit and the withdrawals hit, man did that scare me. But I went back. But I have found a new energy, and this is the longest Ive gone without it in over 8 months. The withdrawals suck, but are already getting better. And there is some hope, positivity, and excitement in me now!  I believe I can do it, and that is huge. 

I don't think any of this would have happened without this thread and especially without you pods. Your posts are words I've turned to many times to lift me up. It's so embarrassing to be alone with this and try to change, but this thread has done wonders. Thank you all so much. 

I know I am still at the beginning, but I feel that surge of happiness from freedom growing, and I'm not trying to quiet it. I'll keep you posted. Gotta stay strong. Thanks to all for making me feel a lot less alone.
Ribs


----------



## THCified

Hi pods, thanks a lot for your kind reply. I was expecting something more harsh tbh but i'm happy to hear such positive and helpful words. Perhaps i should tell some more of my background, or at least, how i run into opiates when i'm already claiming this thread. 

It was more or less accidently that i read about kratom, tbh i never wasted thoughts about opiates, because when i heard of them i thought of blazed chinese people drowsing in a cavern , but i read kratom should be good.

So i thought i'll give it a go. Got me some Maeng da, gathered informations about dosage and ate 5gs the very day i got it...

It was late in the evening and i was soooo blazed, i couldn't watch tv anymore, i could do nothing, i just couldn't handle this awkward feeling. Went to bed, but it didn't stop, no, i was awake the whole night (needless to say i nodded, but hey, i didn't even knew what nodding is!). Next day (especially at work) was hellish, it was a nightmare and i was a complete mess, depressive as hell. Bad Day!

In retrospect was it like my first cigarette. I hated it. But i came back.

Flash forward - besides the fact that i've found something interesting about this strange kratom-stuff and experienced the difference between good and not-so-good mitragyna speciosa, i never found it that good. 

Ok, but not my DOC so far. So i took it very rarely, which sometimes left me dysphoric and irritable, and, if the dose was right, pleasingly energetic and strangely content, especially at work, where i was super-productive, even though hardly sociable. 

And contrary to what most people say, that with it, they came past their opiate addiction, Methoxetamine triggered something. I clearly remember dosing some Thai Kratom the day after i'd done a bit of MXE. It was one of these typcial not-so-nice days, grey and rainy, even had the flu, felt sick and were overly stressed by work.

So Kratom came into my mind.

3gs i did.

It was like if i fell in cotton. I firstly almost forgot about the dose i recently took - and then it hit me. A warm euphoric glow, deep inside my soul.

It was simply magical. It didn't last long, but it was so true. 

Candid.

Needless to say i felt much better then.

But strangely enough i've found the effects of kratom, or in fact, opioids in general, changed from then on...

Not to an extent that was earth-shattering, but i've the feeling of it having more depth, it felt warmer.

This happened roughly 6-7 months ago.

I really like the effects opioids are giving me nowadays, i'm not that irritable anymore and am really calm and content. Great for me because i'm sometimes overly emotional and unresting.

But before making this a neverending story now, i thank you and really appreciate your recommendations and keep them in mind, but i know there's nothing to be feared of.

I won't let it all go overboard, i've a loving family and friends around and i don't wanna waste me. I don't only not want to disappoint them, but also me. I tend to the extremes, i know, but i've always found my way into the right direction, so, i'll let this be my last words as a positive source for my will to not get addicted, to whatever drug there is, or may come.


----------



## Beat It

Hey Pods, can't tell you how proud I am to hear that you made it through to the other side! Hope your still doing well, if not, you can always tell us.  I hope you stick around.

You are 100 percent right that the physical part is the easy part. The mental part is by far more agonizing.  While I fucked up and started using again, coming back and seeing this thread has made me want to quit again. This thread is what made me get through it the first time and I'm thinking of taking your advice and going to AA. I feel like with both I could stay sober. What I can respect about Kratom is it helped make my life far more manageable than it was 2 years ago before I started using it. However, I'm still not clear minded while using and I am still a slave to the plant.

Another thing your 100 percent right about, is that when your off it, you can look the world straight in the eyes. I felt so much healthier when I was off of the stuff. My memory was improved, I didn't suffer from any mood swings, and my mental faculties where definitely sharper. I might have been a little bit more anxious and wound up all the time but like you said, that's a small price to pay for being free. Looking back, quitting was definitely a negative experience, but it made me stronger going through it. I am thankful that I was able to do it. Getting back on the stuff was a terrible decision but I'm not too upset about it. I'm not going to let it get me down, I'm an addict. On some level, I couldn't help it.


----------



## Kratomcody

Hey man good job!! I may have missed this in the post but how long have u been on Kratom and what stains were u on? I'm looking to replace an opioid habit w Kratom and then wd from that. So how long Kratom?


----------



## Fresco

I hate to have to repeat myself, but you guys are making these kratom withdrawals MUCH harder then they need to be. 

Get a hold of "kratom stem and vein powder", you take that every few hours or so for 4 to 5 days, and you'll experience ZERO withdrawals!! Kratom stem is the bottom of the plant, it doesnt get you high it just eliminates WD's and it causes virtually no WD's itself when you come off the stem.

Its almost as if mother nature made the bottom of the plant for just that purpose alone.


----------



## Kratomcody

Where do u get this? It's different than Bali?


----------



## Fresco

Kratomcody said:


> Where do u get this? It's different than Bali?


It doesnt get you high at all, so yes.

Just google this *'kratom stem and vein powder'*  (without the brackets).  There are dozens of vendors


----------



## Kratomcody

An you use this for getting off lets say Bali powder?


----------



## Fresco

Kratomcody said:


> An you use this for getting off lets say Bali powder?


You use it for getting off all powdered kratom.  At least thats what I do.

I dont know if it'll work for extracts though, but you can try it


----------



## Fresco

If you're smart, and you have a bit of self-control, then do what I do.  I go for 1 or 2 days just taking stem powder, and then if I have a rough day at work I take regular kratom for a day or two.  Then a day or 2 later I go back to the stem powder.

You can toggle this way,  you wont get tolerance, and the kratom always is a fun thing to do.  Its also cheaper in the long run because stem powder only costs a fraction the price of regular kratom


----------



## killermunchies

For me personally, kratom has always been good to me.  IMO, It's great for manual labor, long drives, and just chilling.  I've never had any of the problems people describe here though.  I use it on average every other day, but sometimes more and sometimes less.  I sometimes go for a week without it though if I get lazy and wait to order more after I run out, and I never have any ill effects whatsoever.  I've also never use any other opioids/opiates.


----------



## Fresco

killermunchies said:


> For me personally, kratom has always been good to me.  IMO, It's great for manual labor, long drives, and just chilling.  I've never had any of the problems people describe here though.  I use it on average every other day, but sometimes more and sometimes less.  I sometimes go for a week without it though if I get lazy and wait to order more after I run out, and I never have any ill effects whatsoever.  I've also never use any other opioids/opiates


Thats pretty much the way I use it too.  I find you appreciate kratom more when you do it like that


----------



## Kratomcody

So I could go from Bali powder to stem powder and then off and bypass all wd? Also did you come from a background of being on opiotes?


----------



## Fresco

Kratomcody said:


> So I could go from Bali powder to stem powder and then off and bypass all wd?


Yes!  Try to taper down a bit so your dropoff isnt too great.  For example, try to taper to between 15 to 20 grams of powder daily for a few days before you quit.  You actually dont even have to, really.  It just makes it easier



Kratomcody said:


> Also did you come from a background of being on opi*a*tes?


Yes.   Codeine and Oxy's (pills only, not snorting or injecting).

But make sure all other opiates are at least 7 days out of your system


----------



## Kratomcody

Okay thanks!


----------



## podsnomo

You are most welcome ribs. I see you've not posted since your 48 hour mark. It's ok if you caved. I didn't get clean my first attempt for sure, but now I'm on day 13 and it's only getting better. If you want some advice or to know how I made it through, pm me. I'll be glad to do whatever I can for you.

Hang in there. And when it's tough, just hang-ass on! It ONLY gets better.



ribs76 said:


> How many ways can I say thank you?  I have read this thread twice before. Once when I thought about quitting kratom, and once when I first tried. That first attempt lasted about a day. It sucked. It mentally just beat me.
> 
> But here I am with over 48 hours clean from Kratom (I know it's still short but I gotta celebrate a little). I was using a lot, every day. It just crept up on me. Then when I tried to quit and the withdrawals hit, man did that scare me. But I went back. But I have found a new energy, and this is the longest Ive gone without it in over 8 months. The withdrawals suck, but are already getting better. And there is some hope, positivity, and excitement in me now!  I believe I can do it, and that is huge.
> 
> I don't think any of this would have happened without this thread and especially without you pods. Your posts are words I've turned to many times to lift me up. It's so embarrassing to be alone with this and try to change, but this thread has done wonders. Thank you all so much.
> 
> I know I am still at the beginning, but I feel that surge of happiness from freedom growing, and I'm not trying to quiet it. I'll keep you posted. Gotta stay strong. Thanks to all for making me feel a lot less alone.
> Ribs


----------



## podsnomo

Fresco said:


> Yes!  Try to taper down a bit so your dropoff isnt too great.  For example, try to taper to between 15 to 20 grams of powder daily for a few days before you quit.  You actually dont even have to, really.  It just makes it easier
> 
> 
> Yes.   Codeine and Oxy's (pills only, not snorting or injecting).
> 
> But make sure all other opiates are at least 7 days out of your system



I disagree with needing 7 days out from all opiates to do kratom. A day or two and in the thick of WDs and kratom will give much desired relief. Hell, if I could have done 7 days without poppies I'd have never used kratom at all.

To killermunchies: I'm glad you can handle without getting to where many of us did with kratom. I suppose it's like alcohol. 9 of 10 people can drink, no problem. The 10th one, me for example, can never get enough. Of anything. I can't get enough alcohol in me, enough opiates, enough money, enough sex, enough recognition. My life was ruled by excess. And so, while I used to wildly jealous of those who could handle it, I' now actually grateful in some ways to be an alcoholic addict in recovery. I don't have a choice. Well, I do, but it's life or death. If I go on using and drinking it will be to the bitter end, so for me, I have to live a spiritual (not religious) life. And I a finding more happiness, freedom, joy in life sober than I ever knew. That ever knew was possible in fact, and as I said, it's only getting better.


----------



## podsnomo

Hey beat it! Sorry I missed this message a while back. I was sorry to see this thread go cold so I'm posting it and hopefully people will come back, and maybe we'll get some new people trying to kick the kratom monkey. 

I am on day 33 clean now from everything. Fantastic it is! 

You are so right about not being able to help it. For me, i you take away my alcohol an drugs, and don't replace it with something better, I'm a fucking lunatic. Years ago I'd try to quit drinking, on my own, and people would be saying stuff like, "man, you oughtta drink! why are you so angry/fuckedup/miserable/emotional?" For me, AA is that replacement. If you'd have asked me a couple years ago if I'd invite a bunch of guys who believe in some kind of god or higher power over to my house to sit around and talk about recovery and god and stuff, I might popped you in the jaw. 

What I believe now is that I was actually seeking a kind of spiritual experience through drink and drug. And at the beginning, without knowing it, that's what I got. Later then, of course, the drink and drugs turned on me, and started eating everything that was precious to me, little by little. So, take those drinks/drugs out and what am I? Empty. Fucking empty. So, AA. AA is a spiritual program of action. The 12 steps are a simple guide to living happy. We have to be happy in sobriety, otherwise, who the fuck wants it? So, now my spiritual experience lies in recovery, in helping others, in taking my ego out of the way. Now my mind is quiet (sometimes) so that when the answers come I can hear them. (That is, when life puts up a red flag, I don't just drive over it witha bottle in one hand and a drug in the other.) I am becoming ever more peaceful and serene. I am confident, but not full of myself. Fears of loss have all but abandoned me. I trust and have faith. I do the next right thing, to the best of my ability, and do this knowing that I can only control that part. Whatever else happens is whatever else happens, and I am confident in facing life on life's terms, not on my own. You see, my plan for living sucked. If I showed you the results my pan got me, you'd agree. AA's plan for living does not suck. If you could see the results I get from this plan, you would again agree. 

SO yes, you can't help it. Alone. Alone you cannot. This is what you've said IMO. If then, powerless is your dilemma, you need a power greater than yourself. Start with AA. The fellowship can be your higher power starting out. I thought alcoholics and drug addicts slept under bridges and had seizures outside the liqour store waiting for it o open. I never thought that was me. But I now know that alcoholism comes in many stripes, as does addiction, and if we want free, IMO, we need a power greater than ourselves. Simple. 

Take it easy.
pnm



Beat It said:


> Hey Pods, can't tell you how proud I am to hear that you made it through to the other side! Hope your still doing well, if not, you can always tell us.  I hope you stick around.
> 
> You are 100 percent right that the physical part is the easy part. The mental part is by far more agonizing.  While I fucked up and started using again, coming back and seeing this thread has made me want to quit again. This thread is what made me get through it the first time and I'm thinking of taking your advice and going to AA. I feel like with both I could stay sober. What I can respect about Kratom is it helped make my life far more manageable than it was 2 years ago before I started using it. However, I'm still not clear minded while using and I am still a slave to the plant.
> 
> Another thing your 100 percent right about, is that when your off it, you can look the world straight in the eyes. I felt so much healthier when I was off of the stuff. My memory was improved, I didn't suffer from any mood swings, and my mental faculties where definitely sharper. I might have been a little bit more anxious and wound up all the time but like you said, that's a small price to pay for being free. Looking back, quitting was definitely a negative experience, but it made me stronger going through it. I am thankful that I was able to do it. Getting back on the stuff was a terrible decision but I'm not too upset about it. I'm not going to let it get me down, I'm an addict. On some level, I couldn't help it.


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## ScreamPhoenix

Hi all. Well, Happy Thanksgiving. I've been reading this thread since yesterday, and just wanted to say it was immensely helpful. I am addicted to kratom and finally feel like I can get off of it, thanks to this. I'll probably start a new thread (this is my first post here) but just wanted to say, thanks for all of the postings.


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## ScreamPhoenix

Tried to find a good place to 'tell my story', but didn't find anything. So I'll post here, and try to keep it short as possible.

I've essentially been on opiates for about 9 years now. Jeez, it sounds so long, yet feels so short. Crazy.

Anyway, my DOC was lortabs/vicodin (preferred lortabs, but harder to find). I've done every painkiller there is. I just preferred the hydrocodone. I was not the type looking to get wasted all the time, I just wanted something to make my life more bearable. I've been through a lot of really rough trauma-type things, family issues, alcoholic parent, and so on. Prior to the pills, I did everything drugs-wise (apart from meth, which I am grateful for never trying). Right before pills I was drinking to blackout, crying, cutting myself, blah blah blah. Pills not only took away my want to drink and be depressed, but I could "live life" on them like a "normal" person. When I first started, pills got me through the work day, I was productive and social, they helped me work out/clean/cook/read/anything (they gave me energy for some reason). When I started having a medical issue at 21 which required mucho surgeries, it was off to the races for me. It got much worse at 25 when I discovered online pharmacies. I didn't doctor shop, so my monthly script was only $5!

At 26 I decided I wanted to quit. Tried to quit on my own, withdrawals were so bad. I tried suboxone (bad idea, if you are not taking something "hard-core", the w/d's are worse than quitting whatever substance you're using them for) and went to daily outpatient. Didn't work. Went to detox, really tried my hardest at the sobriety thing. Went to counseling, AA/NA meetings. I did not like them at all, but kept trying. When I went to detox, my online source stopped selling online, which I thought was a blessing. Caved after a couple months when I had another (different kind of surgery). Then I really started wasting money. I'd go to all different urgent care centers and get pills. It was such a crapshoot, since sometimes they wouldn't give me anything, other times they would, it was all different rX's, etc. Crazily, this went on for months. I'd try to detox on my own and I'd get through it ok, but depression, boredom etc. would set in and I'd do it again. I used very sparingly though; maybe a total of 3 pills all day (15 mg).

I quit my job and started going to college full time in April. I just finished a script of vicodins. I didn't go through terrible detox or anything, since I'd only taken it for maybe a month at that time. But then I discovered kratom.

My bf suggested it, though he never did it before. We had just started dating, and he was just trying to help. He wanted me to feel better. I went to a kava bar with him and tried a gram of 15X kratom. Holy hell! I felt fantastic! I was high as hell, in love with the world, just like when I first tried vicodin. So of course, I wanted to do it all of the time. He didn't understand why I was doing it every day (he just tried it once). I had some depression when I stopped, but it lifted quickly.

I started having pain issues, could not go to urg care since I didn't have insurance. Again, I discovered ordering online. I figured since online, most things I read said that kratom was non-addictive, helped many people get off opiates, etc. it was fine. I could have my cake and eat it too. Still feel like "normal" people (not depressed), live a productive life & be happy.

I've been on it pretty much non-stop since then. One time I stopped for a few weeks. Most other times, only a day or 2, a week, etc. But, I used it very sparingly again, though it was a few times per day.

Then my medical issue came back, been a mess dealing with that. Was in the hospital for 4 days having surgery. Was on dilaudid and morphine there. Got a vicodin script and because my follow up was INCREDIBLY painful, I just kept taking them and getting refills. I quit them cold turkey, suffered through withdrawals for a few days, caved and got kratom. It's been a few months now.

I'm currently taking the kratom in capsule form. I really have no idea the amount I'm actually taking. I believe they are size 00, which is supposedly .95 ml per pill. And supposedly, ml=grams, so since I take about 12 pills per day, I'm taking about 11.5 grams/day. I know most kratom addicts will be like, that's nothing, that's a dose for me. Well, we are all different. I can't be high. I'm a full time student and work. I have a high GPA and member of an honor society (coming from being a dropout felon, this is major to me).

I have a lot more to say, but am getting extremely sleepy. Basically, I am going to try to taper to quit. It has to work, it has to. I can't go on like this.. Sick the instant I wake up. Confused, forgetting things. Insomnia or oversleeping. Not eating, chain-smoking, on and on. Will post more later. Sorry so long and rambling..........


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## Fresco

^^^^^^ Scream, try cutting your kratom doses in half for a week or two.

That should reset tolerance somewhat. Or you can also buy some kratom stem powder, it wont get you high but it will definitely reset tolerance also


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## ScreamPhoenix

When I drop my doses down by even 1/6, I get anxiety, sweating, chills. So 1/2 wouldn't be good. What I've been doing is trying to change the way I take them, at least. Instead of 2 pills when I first get up, 2 before school, 1 after class, then 1 here and there all night until bed, I take 6 when I wake up, then 2 here and there. Going to try tomorrow to do 6 in the am, then 6 at night, then gradually go down from there.

I read about the stem powder earlier.. So you it keeps the w/d's at bay but doesn't get you high, right? Is there other research that explains why this is? If so, where?

I don't want to spend the money and it not be worth it, you know? I want to quit. I am not trying to maintain for the rest of my life. I want to be sober and not rely on a substance to feel 'normal'.


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## Fresco

Kratom stem powder completely eliminates WD's for me.  And it especially gets rid of that annoying RLS at night, which for me is the worst part of WD.

Stem powder is cheap, you can get it online for 1/3 price of real kratom


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## ScreamPhoenix

Do you take the same amount you normally take, etc?


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## Fresco

ScreamPhoenix said:


> Do you take the same amount you normally take, etc?


Yup, 3 grams every few hours or so.  Whenever you feel WD coming on.

Stem powder is the bottom of the kratom plant and doesnt get you high at all.  I really believe mother nature put it there so we can get off the kratom habit


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## protoss83

I just wanted to join this forum after reading all the greats posts in this thread and especially the ones from "pods no more".  I'm trying to quit a very mild kratom habit (3 grams a day of maeng da for about a month straight) and here I am on day two experiencing some mild withdrawal (most psychological) symptoms like obsessing over not having it, a general feeling of restlessness, things like that.

As the wise man on the Wire says to the H addict Bubbles: "getting cleans the easy part, it's life that's hard".

And life is hard.  Like most I use drugs to try and escape the daily grind.  I'm a small business owner and although I'd hardly call myself an extrovert I'm forced to interact with dozens of customers every day for my business.  Kratom made those interactions so much easier.  My jokes were funnier, my sales pitches were better, things like that.  I found myself actually looking forward to them on occasion.  

That's the power of Kratom not that it's a great recreational high but it just makes dealing with daily life much easier.  It's a crutch though and like pods no more points out it's an excuse to feel good when you aren't taking care of yourself.  I've always been an active person but on Kratom I could get the "runner's buzz" (or weighlifter's buzz) without actually doing all that hard work.  So in the last month or so I've stopped being so active, gained a few pounds and all the time felt like a million bucks 'cause of the Kratom.

I don't pretend to be a hardcore addict.  I have a mild drinking habit.  I smoke the occasional bowl of pot.   But Kratom helped me deal with life in ways those drugs couldn't.  I don't have any desire to be booze boozed or stoned at work, but Kratom goes so damn well with productivity.  It really does.

Anyways, I was feeling mildly depressed before I found this thread and after reading it I'm more determined than ever to give up the Kratom and start treating myself well again.  Thanks to everyone that contributes here.


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## ScreamPhoenix

That's really awesome Protoss!! Are you feeling better today? This thread really _is_ great. 
Don't worry about having a mild habit- a habit is a habit.
When I stop taking kratom I get the physical withdrawals just like "regular" opiates. But the hardest part for me is the mental withdrawal.
Also, it's not something we can discuss with everyone. I admitted to all of my friends and family when I went to detox for painkillers. They had no idea I was on anything. Well, they knew I took painkillers for all of my surgeries, but just didn't know I didn't stop taking them when the pain went away. I feel ashamed to say, "I am addicted to kratom," because 98% of people will say, "What's that?" So that leads us to a message board, where we try to get help.
Let me know how you're feeling. Oh, and I totally get taking kratom for social situations. Vicodins made me want to pick up the phone and call friends and make plans. Without them, I just kind of wanted to hide out.


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## ScreamPhoenix

I kinda feel like I'm talking to myself here, but ah well.

I am trying to bring kratom useage down to acceptable level, then taper. I usually take 12-14 pills per day (12-14 grams). So in the morning I take 6 pills instead of 2 when I first wake up, then 2 here and there. The plan is to then take 6 later in the day. Then bring it down.. 5 and 5, 4 and 4, etc. Problem is the 6 make me feel all high and not wanting to get stuff done. Then my early afternoon I feel like I'm in withdrawal, but don't want to take the whole batch so early, so I mess up the plan and take 1-2 here and there until I've gone over my limit. It's a mess. I'm down to 99 pills, so creating a taper plan is challenging, since it's not as slow as I'd like. Right now, I should be done in 19 days. 

Also, I ran out of kratom much sooner than anticipated, and had to go to the kava bar and get 15X kratom. That didnt help matters, I feel it brought my tolerance up.

I can't wait to be off this crap. Like other posters said, I don't want to be a slave to a plant. I'm not demonizing it. I don't think it should be illegal. Some people can handle it, some can't. You give me any substance that makes me feel like my life is bearable and I want to take it every day. But eventually, it makes my life unbearable on them. Only other addicts will understand this.


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## Fresco

@ ScreamPhoenix

Just try to stay positive.  Everything will work itself out in the end.  Just because you got into an opiate habit because of surgeries doesnt make you a bad person.

And when you add it all up, I much rather have a kratom habit then a vicodin or oxycontin habit.  But thats just me


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## silentcowboy

Yeah kratom can get a hold of you, but not like real opiates IMO. Id rather have a kratom habit then anything else (nicotine, alcohol, opiate ect) for many reasons. I agree that some people can handle it and some cant. Kratom does amazing things for the people that can keep in control  After 2+ years its still working its wonders


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## Fresco

silentcowboy said:


> Yeah kratom can get a hold of you, but not like real opiates IMO. Id rather have a kratom habit then anything else (nicotine, alcohol, opiate ect) for many reasons. I agree that some people can handle it and some cant. Kratom does amazing things for the people that can keep in control  After 2+ years its still working its wonders


And correct me if I'm wrong, but you are  the guy who cuts his kratom doses in half to beat tolerance, amiright??


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## silentcowboy

Yeah, I try to when I have free time, but for the last couple months Ive been working so much that I havent. Either way kratom works for me and many others


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## Fresco

silentcowboy said:


> Yeah, I try to when I have free time, but for the last couple months Ive been working so much that I havent. Either way kratom works for me and many others


When you do cut your doses in half, how many days or weeks do you do that??


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## ScreamPhoenix

For me, I just feel like I switched addictions, and that makes me feel guilty, considering kratom does the same thing to me as "real" painkillers. It actually feels worse for me, anxiety-wise, when I stop cold turkey.

I'm doing as slow a taper as possible, and even with going down 1 pill (gram) per day, I feel it. I have some 15X I take a teeny, teeny bit of it when it's unbearable and I'm sweating or whatever.


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## Fresco

I find (in general) withdrawals tend to hit girls harder


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## podsnomo

Hi and welcome Scream!

I know how you feel, wanting to be free. (I PMed you too) 

And Fresco, god love ya, I know that stem and vein powder works wonderfully for you, but it's not the answer for all of us. 

For me, I had to face my kick. And while it wasn't as bad physically as "real" opiates, it can be just as much of a psychologically distressing mind-fuck as an "real" opiate.

Scream, feeling guilty is part of beating yourself up. Be kind to yourself. You got hooked on something that makes life feel better, bearable, good. I personally often think that we addicts/alcoholics and so on are more "normal" than the earth-people, which is what I call people who have never had a problem with a substance. Speaking from experience, because I still do this a lot, if you compare your insides to other people's outsides, you're gonna lose every time. Eff them, or our perceptions of them.

Thing is, as an addict (and/or alky) our perceptions just get effed up. Even more than earth people. But really, we're all nuts on some level. What's the world made of? Dirt, water, and several billion people trying to figure out how to cope. There's nothing 'wrong' with getting a habit going. It's not like you woke up one day and said, "hey, think i'll fuck up my life with some substances today. whee!"

Rule 62, which is "don't take yourself so GD seriously" is good to follow, but sould be extended to: don't other people so GD seriously either. 

What's at stake? No, really, let's not talk about the perimeter, like relationships and jobs. What's REALLY at stake? Our sanity, our peace of mind, our lives. 

I've recently slipped back into kratom usage. FML! And I know I gotta quit again. It's gonna happen while my gf is out of country. Seems like I'm kicking one thing or another every time she goes on holiday alone. 

Anyway, this time I'm not feeling guilty. Learned my lesson there. Does no one any good, least of all me. And I'm not going to expect certain earth people around me to "understand". I've got to walk the road in sobriety on my own, with the support of my AA brothers, not kowtowing to people who don't get what it is to have an addiction. 

Listen, things are as they are. If we clean, things will be as they are. If we don't, things will be as they are. That's not a depressing message of hopelessness, it's a statement of fact. Direct truth, yo. Perspective. 

Yes, quitting sucks, and I'm going to get to do it all over again. And yes, AMEN, to whoever quoted someone else from the Wire about saying getting is clean is easy, it's life that's hard. TRUTH.

On a certain level, we must surrender to life. It'll suck, or it won't. It'll be great, or it won't. ANd it will be both those things and everything in between, clean or not. 

There's this seed in us all though, that knows that life can be better, that life will be better without substances and the swings and all that. All drugs work great in the short term, and then quit doing what it was that we started taking them for once we're addicted. Damn.

On one hand, we could woe-is-me this whole position, or we could look at it as I am trying to see it now: that we get the amazing _opportunity_ to learn how to live all over again. 

I'm counting my slip or whatever we call it as part of my recovery process. Because I have NOT given up, and I have learned even more from this one. Long term sobriety is still in my future. I know it. 

I've listened to a lot f AA/NA speakers. Nearly al of them say something like it having taken everything it took for them to get to where they are, which is long time sober and HAPPY with it. 

I'm going into rolling thoughts now and my arms want to stop, so I should quit typing. 

Main point: be kind to yourself, take some distance for perspective, and know that life isn't nearly as hard as we make it in our heads. 

Love and peace to all,
pods no mo 



ScreamPhoenix said:


> For me, I just feel like I switched addictions, and that makes me feel guilty, considering kratom does the same thing to me as "real" painkillers. It actually feels worse for me, anxiety-wise, when I stop cold turkey.
> 
> I'm doing as slow a taper as possible, and even with going down 1 pill (gram) per day, I feel it. I have some 15X I take a teeny, teeny bit of it when it's unbearable and I'm sweating or whatever.


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## Fresco

^^^  Pods, I recently learned stem and vein powder doesnt work for everyone.  Try taking GABA and phenibut for kratom withdrawal, that works well for me also


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## ScreamPhoenix

Pods, I lol'ed at your "earth people" comment. I am a master at beating myself up. I can thank my alcoholic dad for that  But thanks for the response. How are you?

Fresco, I know this wasn't directed to me, but I personally have read about phenibut: Some users claim that phenibut is addictive and leads to withdrawal symptoms. Symptoms of phenibut withdrawal include sweaty hands, insomnia, reduced appetite and anxiety. According to Chemie.de, insomnia can be severe. When taking this product, reduce the dosage slowly over time to avoid withdrawal symptoms. So yeah, that probably wouldn't be any good for me, I'd just get addicted to it.As for GABA, I can't find any info on it, but opiates/opiods do affect GABA receptors, so it's possible. I'll have to do more research. I heard L-tyrosine was good for withdrawals and B-vitamins, but those make me all jittery, makes the anxiety worse.
Oh, and that was interesting what you said about w/d's hitting girls harder. I am a Psych major so that sort of thing def. interests me. It could be b/c females are more prone to depression (those pesky hormones) therefore stopping is harder. Also, (just in personal experience) it seems women are expected to do it all: work, take care of the household, look like a supermodel at all times (maybe just in South Florida), and never be sick or down. I have friends who won't even speak to me when I say I am sick, they seem to think it is some sort of moral failing or something.

So I survived finals, thank God. I was trying to stick to my taper schedule but it just wasn't working. Going down 2 pills per day made me feel as if I hadn't taken any kratom at all. Not good for trying to study and work. So now I am just trying to not take it, and when I feel withdrawals take a teeny amount. I've taken 8 pills today (usually by this time I've taken 12), and I waited a hella long time to take it instead of taking it first thing. I'm actually feeling kind of happy, I am excited to be done with this semester so I can clean my long-neglected apartment and spend some quality time with my ferrets, friends, and family.

That's what makes quitting so hard, especially around holiday time. I know I am going to be spending time with friends/family, and I don't want to explain why I am shivering/sweating, full of anxiety, stomach issues, exhausted, etc. I have plans tonight with my friends, plans with my mommy tomorrow, and possibly this music thing Friday night, then working Saturday and Sunday. I may be stopping kratom Monday, but then I have plans Weds, so.. who knows. I honestly wish I could just go to rehab (I know that probably sounds crazy to most), but I don't have insurance and money (I only work part-time and pay for my own apartment and all my bills on my own). We'll see..


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## feelinblue

Hey all, 

Thank god for this thread, it provides the only helpful information on kratom withdrawal that I've been able to come by. Pnm, all of your posts have been very informative and supportive and I appreciate it. I was seriously starting to wonder if I'd messed myself up for good or something. 

My roommate (I'm a college sophomore) was the first to introduce me to kratom in October of this year. He let me try 3g of Bali before a study session and of course I was in love. I went and ordered 100g of Bali and and ended up taking ~6g a day for about a month. One 3g dose in the afternoon and then one at night. Obviously, after a while the stuff seemed to "lose its magic". The need to quit hit me one night when I waited till right before bed to take my 3g dose of kratom and it didn't help me fall asleep, but made me irritable, so reluctantly I washed down 3 more grams and ended up not falling asleep till many hours later. So the next day I decided to go without and I felt pretty sick and a little blue the whole day, but it was manageable and I just stayed stoned most of the day. The next day I had a pretty bad headache and needed to get some work done so I popped an adderall and this seemed to make the w/d's subside, and by the time it was wearing off I just smoked more weed and fell asleep and it was fine. The next day was a Wednesday and the only w/d symptom I felt was slight but very manageable depression. Ended up just smoking before bed like the last few times and everything was fine. So, on Thursday (this is all during our finals week) I checked my grades and saw that I had failed a class, and I guess since I was a little depressed from the kratom w/d it made me feel absolutely terrible, so thinking maybe since the withdrawals were mostly over, I could take 3g of kratom and my tolerance would be down and everything would be perfect. Of course, it kicked in and I loved it but when I woke up the next day (Friday), I noticed I felt a little anxious, nothing too bad but a kind of stage fright feeling. All I had was a really easy final in my free elective so I was confused as to why I would be jittery about that. 

As the day went on, however, I noticed that I was getting a little more panicky and uncomfortable. By nighttime I was living in complete torture. I paced around my living room having a panic attack every 15 minutes from 11 to about 5 a.m., couldn't even think about sleeping even though I was so tired. I eventually passed out for a couple of hours but woke up at like 8 having uncontrollable panic attacks, which lasted pretty much the entire day and of course I smoked a bunch of marijuana and it eventually knocked me out. The next day was exactly the same, I just felt panicky and horrible the whole day. It was the worst depression I'd ever had, it felt like I was alone and hopeless, I couldn't stop crying/having anxiety attacks. I was REALLY starting to worry at this point that I was gonna be stuck this way because I hadn't been taking that much kratom in the first place. After about four days, thank Jesus himself, the panic subsided, but now I'm in a pretty depressed state (8 days since last use), feeling a little hopeless but also thankful that the panic attacks are over. Anyone have any advice to help me get through this part, or when I'll feel okay again? I've run for 30 min a day all week and had mostly healthy food. All I want for Christmas is to feel normal and sober again. 

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread, it has been the only consolation I've had in over a week.


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## tkarr

I'll share my experiences.  I used Kratom to come off of a long-term opiate habit this summer.  Worked great actually, the switch over was actually quite easy I must say.  A little withdrawal for a few days but it leveled off very quickly.  In the beginning I was just taking a tablespoon of leaf three times per day.  Stuck with that for a couple months.  I've been tapering down for a few months now.  I bought a scale that measures in 0.01 gram increments so I can be more accurate with dose.  I'm down now to 1.5 grams 3x per day.

Here's the thing I find very different about Kratom.  I'm noticing at the point I'm at now, I start feeling withdrawal symptoms shortly before my next dose.  It's not so bad with the 2nd and 3rd of the day.  But where it's really starting to wear me down a bit is over night.  Every single morning I wake up feeling withdrawals.  Now it's way more minor than with real opiates, the main symptom being just that slight RLS feeling where you're uncomfortable no matter what position you're in and kind of drained feeling.  I'm finding like every morning I end up waking up like an hour or two before I need to be up and I am feeling it and can't go back to sleep.  Most of the time after a good nights sleep you feel refreshed and good when you first wake up, but now I'm honestly starting to forget what that feels like.  I take my first dose shortly after waking up, but still it's a pain.

I don't have any regrets though, managing a kratom habit is about 1000x easier than what I was doing.  Side effects are pretty much non-existant, I've never had it make me feel sick to my stomach like some people report.  When I was using larger amounts when I first switched, sometimes it would make me feel quite dizzy for an hour or so but it would pass.  But where I'm at now there's zero recreational value to it, I just take it and feel ok, good just like any regular person would feel, certainly not buzzed or high at all.  

I think I'm going to stick with the 4.5 grams/day I'm at for a week or so and hopefully it levels off a bit.  I'll then just continue taking it down a little each day.  I haven't experienced any kind of the mental symptoms like some people report, depression or anxiety, and I'd really, really like to avoid those so I'll take it slow.

It's been very helpful to me, but I think it's another example, no matter what, if you mess with opiates and get into a decent habit, there's no clean break from it, no way.  You have to pay back that pleasure with a certain amount of suffering, one way or another, to varying degrees.


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## les42

I found these posts to be very helpful.  Like Greenlighter, I had a long-term opiate habit (Codeine) quit for a long time and then started using Kratom, which I am now off of but still in withdrawal.  I'm not sure how much use there is in comparing all the different types of withdrawal as some of the posters do (they're all unpleasant) but really withdrawing from kratom is pretty damn similar to withdrawing from other opitates; maybe a little less severe but still not fun.

I think a lot of us probably started using kratom because it didn't seem so bad, especially compared with many other drugs - it's natural, the effects are pleasant, it's legal in many places, it has some positive aspects, it's easy to obtain.  But after having used it for a year my opinion is that it is a drug like any other - addictive, harmful, expensive.  I don't really see any benefit in using kratom over other opiates in terms of health or well being and I want to be rid of this crutch.  

A lot of posters have recommended other substances to ease the withdrawal and I have to admit that I am tempted too.  But I do think that that's just our addiction talking - without kratom our brains want something, anything, to get them high, and using alcohol, dxm or anything else to get over the withdrawal just risks an addiction to something else.  Maybe I have more of an addictive personality than other posters, but I've found through trial and error that it's not that I'm addicted to one specific thing but that I'm just an addict, and without that thing - kratom or whatever - my brain will look for something else.  

I don't mean to sermonize but just want to warn from personal experience that substituting one drug for another to get over withdrawal is risky.  And really, when you get down to it, the withdrawal is no worse than a bad cold or flu that we have all suffered from and survived.


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## Fresco

The good thing aboot kratom withdrawal is the worst is over in 4 days, while most other opiates take a a full week (or more)


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## Morninggloryseed

This thread has been refreshing to read.   Kratom is not easy to kick if you have been on it for years.  Sure, its not poppy pods, its not suboxone withdrawal, but it sucks in its own way and leaves many very depressed.  It took a month of so for my body to really feel 'normal' again after kratom.  In my case kratom replaced suboxone, which replaced poppy pod tea; so perhaps those with long term opiate dependency issues are prone to extended kratom WD, or maybe it is the other way.


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## Sukkubus

hey there, 
i'm so glad that i found this thread. and i'm deeply touched of the support you spend each other. reading your stories encouraged me to face the fact, that i'm addicted to kratom. 
14 months ago i kicked suboxone, which i took for 1 year (before suboxone i was on methadone for 4 years, before that i was on heroin). the tapered the suboxone for 6 months and there was basically no withdrawl. guess i had luck. 2 months after i kicked the suboxone i discovered kratom. since then i take it regularly. 2-3 weeks in a row, but then i make a pause for 2 weeks. there are no physical symptoms, except for some problems with the digestive system. but boy, i REALLY get depressed. suicidal almost, when i have no kratom. i'm like in a vicious circle. if i am depressed, i order kratom, which makes me, in the long term,  more depressed. and now, i am REALLY afraid of that depression. it fucks my life, my relationship, my job. but i don't wanna take kratom anymore. but i feel the urge to take it, because i feel like i habe to "function". 
(sorry, my english is real bad and i'm in a hurry. i hope you understand what i'm trying to say. 
what do you do against the depression? and how long will it last? 
by the way, merry christmas to all of you. and i hope that you stay strong.


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## ScreamPhoenix

Feelinblue- I just wanted to say I feel your pain. I get the anxiety when I stop as well, which I think is the hardest symptom of all. How are you feeling now? I would surmise that it gets better with time, but I've never waited long enough to find out.

tkarr-I, as well, feel the withdrawals from going down in usage as well. It's pretty ridiculous. I am down to 13 grams (was up to 16) went to bed at 2 AM and was wide awake at 6 AM for no apparent reason, except I was sweating. Tried to wait it out, but 2 hours later I was still awake, and had to take 1 gram to get some rest. The only symptom I've never gotten, even from stopping roxys, was the RLS syndrome. I've heard potassium is good for that, maybe try some good coconut water? Has more potassium than bananas.

I have more to add to must eat :D


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## lessmore

I feel your anxiety ... I too have stopped Sub about 2 months ago with the help of Kratom. I really like its gentle aroma and white vein energy but am confused as to what everybody doses comparatively. I have been doing about 2 tablespoons of powder via toss and wash with apple juice. I am  doing 5 days week but have experienced some incredibly severe anxiety attacks. Weird ones ... I can reason myself out of the worst mentally but physically Kratom does something strange to the meaning of anxiety. I'm physically really healthy but am curious as to what if any strain and dose may ease the anxiety. I know we should all just back off all this shit but I don't drink ... & Thinking a little Proper K is cool.


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## ScreamPhoenix

I posted another response right after the other day, guess it didn't show up, oh well.

lessmore- It's difficult to measure kratom since grams measures weight, whereas a tablespoon measures volume. What_ I _did was got empty capsules to put the kratom in from Whole Foods (when I did toss & wash it sometimes made me nauseous). Doing it this way also had the added bonus of knowing exactly how many grams I was taking per day (if I took 12 pills, each capsule held about 1 gram, so 12 grams). But supposedly, a teaspoon of kratom is equal to 3 grams. So for you, 2 tablespoons (3 teaspoons in a tablespoon)= 18 grams per day. I was averaging about 16 per day.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/379155-Best-way-to-measure-out-grams-And-Kratom

I don't think I ever specifically took white vein, but I do know that Bali was my favorite since it didn't give me the jitters as much as Thai. And oddly enough, it was always the cheaper one. Whether you want to continue on with kratom or quit is up to you my friend. Only you know if it is affecting your life negatively or not.

It's freaking hard. I've been trying to quit for months, but the withdrawals got to me so hard. Even dropping down slightly has caused me to wake in the middle of the night, drenched with sweat. So here I am now. The past week or so I got down to 14 grams, then 12, then 13, 12, 11, 11, so far only 2 today of 15X that I had left over from times I ran out of the regular and had to buy from kava bar. I only have 2 left, then I am done. I am praying that I can get through this. I work weekends, so I am hoping 4 days is enough to be normal at work. I start school again I believe January 7th. I want to get through the worst of it before all that.

I've been encouraging myself, reading reading reading online about opiate addiction (and let's be real- it is an opiate, albeit a "less strong and natural" one). I think I never got too far with quitting any opiate since the age of 21-22 because I never allowed my brain to heal. I'd sometimes quit for a couple of days, another time I made it almost 2 months. But the depression, boredom, etc always set in and I always went back. I am determined to get through this. I can't wait to be sober and clear-headed and in control.

I am going to quit smoking soon as well, so I've been taking a smoking cleanse, which helps since I can't drink alcohol in it. As an added bonus, this helps me explain to friends my "miserableness"- I can blame it on quitting cigs. Of course I keep second-guessing myself and feeling like now is not the time (especially since I'm hormonal), but I am going to try and push through.

Happy New Years everyone. To everyone who wants to quit, or has already, I wish you the best of luck. You can do anything you put your mind to. There are people who have healed from this, and you can too. It just takes time. Be patient with yourself. To everyone who doesn't want to quit, hey, that's your decision. Only you know what works for you. 9 years of addiction is enough for me. I'll be back to update. Take care %)


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## silentcowboy

Sounds like your heading in the right direction! Best of luck, and keep us posted


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## podsnomo

It's Pods here again. Whew. I keep telling some of you I'm going to stay steady with my checkings-in here, but I've been down the tubes the last month or so. After about 30 or 40 days kratom free and totally clean (except my very small doses of benzos from my doctor which I don't abuse) I had this amazing (at the time) thought. Thinking, by the way, for me, should trigger a giant fucking alarm with lights and sirens and stuff. Anyway, I thought, kratom's no big deal, I can just use a little, you know, for an energy boost since my sleep was shitty for a few nights. SO I got some at the over=-priced place on my way to work one day. Poof, a few weeks later I'm ordering it online again, and shit yall.... WHY WHY WHY?

Now here it is New Year's day and I'm sitting here with the chills setting in, some sneezing, and my last kratom dose was last night about 8:30 pm. That's about 20 hours ago. So, tomorrow should be the worst of it, the day I go back to work. And I didn't even plan on quitting today. Last night I was thinking about how I'd go about getting out to the place I buy kratom and getting some more. But I woke up this morning just fed up. I don't know if it's the new year or what. I just don't wanna live like this. 

My first real kick on kratom was after using for 4 months as a transition from a serious poppy pod powder habit. I think that one was worse than this will be because I never fully withdrew from the pods before I got the kratom going. I went 2, no, 3 days without a couple weeks agao and it wasn't that bad. I planned on staying clean then, but it didn't happen. Something's different now though. 

I think before, without realizing it, I wanted sobriety and to be clean for others more than for me. Now I'm not feeling like I give two shits how proud of me or happy for me others are. Looking back though, I think that's what it was before. Look at me, ya know? I'm clean and sober and how amazing for an effed up alcoholic/addict with more issues than a medical journal. 

Now, I have some extra benzos for this kick, and will take immodium as needed. I took slightly less than my prescribed dose of benzos for several weeks so I could take slightly more while the anxiety rears its ugly head. I'll have to get through work tomorrow feeling pretty poorly. But if I use the benzos to combat that I can make it through. Now, does that constitute justification for abuse? Am I abusing the benzos if I'm combating the anxiety from WDs? 

I dunno. People who say benzos are their DOC and who love being benzoed don't make sense to me. I mean, I get what it is to be addicted, but being benzoed beyond just warding off panic and high anxiety doesn't do it for me . Don't like it. Just makes me annoyingly sleepy. 

ScreamP, etal, how goes it? Scream, you're about to quit smoking too. I'm in the same boat. I signed up for a class thing in my city where you go for free once a week for 13 weeks and they give you free nicotine replacement. I signed on for that when my gf was worrying about me dying and so forth. And that was when I was clean too, so now I'm facing quitting cigs right around the time I'll be hitting whatever PAWS symptoms come my way. 

And my emotions are just visiting me at their own will. I feel defeated in a good way, like surrender is the answer. Just surrender to life. Live life on life's terms. Just do that, simple, right? Just do that and I can one day be free and clean. I've been trying to get free and clean for a long fucking time now. I'm not giving up. I was hopeless for a long time, but now I have hope. For me, that's a miracle. As long as we have hope, we have the whole universe. 

I love you all. Happy New Year, and may this one be the year we get where we wanna be. Free. Happy, joyous and free. 

pnm


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## podsnomo

Hey again. +32 hrs now without kratom and I'm awake in the middle of the night. almost 4a.m. here. Woke up with restless legs. Good thing I don't have any booze. I took my 30mg temazepam that's for sleep supposedly earlier in the evening last night. Then took a 10mg zolpidem (ambiem) along with a 40 of budweiser before bed, thinking that would konk me til 9 when I need to get up. Nope. Kept me asleep for 2 hours. I have some extras from a prescription of a wrong dosage and from switching from zolpidem to temazepam. So, I  just took a 15mg temazepam and a little more than half of a 10mg zolpidem. We'll see if I just am awake and kinda loopy or if I get sleepy enough to go back to bed. Weird thing is, I have an appetite, which wasn't there AT ALL on previous kratom quits. So, I'm gonna let these extra benzos work their stuff for a minute, eat something little, and see if I can sleep some more before 9. 

Most people say successive quits, like repeated WDs and such, make the process worse. This is not worse. So if anyone reading this is facing a second or third kratom quit, lemme tell ya, it may in fact get easier with kratom. Or it may be too that the extra benzos are good to have. If you can get some benzos and don't normally take them, try  just using them ONLY for the first week or so. I'm going back to my normal dosage within 4 or 5 days. I certainly don't want a benzo habit to get out of hand. I don't even like them!

Peace,
podsnomo


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## Fresco

podsnomo said:


> Most people say successive quits, like repeated WDs and such, make the process worse. This is not worse. So if anyone reading this is facing a second or third kratom quit, lemme tell ya, it may in fact get easier with kratom


No, thats the great thing with kratom.  The WD's get slightly easier after many relapses.  I think thats because kratom is natural while most other opiates are synthetic and made in factories


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## ScreamPhoenix

HI EVERYBODY! (Dr. Nick voice from the Simpsons)

Hey Pods No Mo! We are in exactly the same boat. I quit on New Years Day too, and still standing strong! You ask WHY you went back to the kratom? Because you (we) are addicts. I truly don't think our brains work like normal peeps. It's like, for whatever reason, we think we "need" something to feel better. For me, it's blocking out painful memories of life, and also quelling this kind of social anxiety I have. On kratom, or painkillers, I am Party Girl Extraordinaire of my friends. I seriously considered becoming a party planner or club promoter. I plan gatherings and get people from all walks of life together and make sure everybody is happy and having a great time. I am Miss Popular. I always make sure I look great even if it takes me hours to get ready. No one EVER knew I was on anything. They were like, but you're so happy and fun!...But off? I just want to stay home and I don't even want to answer my phone. I just cry my eyes out. Then again, that could be the good old PAWS, or really even still in detox mode. Or perhaps I am depressed. Who knows, it's weird. And yes you must definitely do it for YOU. Even the quitting smoking thing. Because if you quit for anybody besides yourself, you will still have that feeling of being deprived, although you know deep down it's a good thing you're doing. And that'll lead you back (that's my experience anyway). 

Oh man, kicking at work, I knew that one well. I used to always kick at work since I worked a 9-5 Mon-Fri, it was inevitable for a painkiller addict like me. The worst was when I chose a Monday to stop taking roxies. I was constantly in the bathroom, sneezing my head off, eyes running, wanting to punch the next person who asked anything of me (and I was a "support person", that was my job, lol, how dare them). That lasted that day and I ran straight to my ex's house after work for more pills. Roxies and oxies are freaking AWFUL. I had a heavy hydrocodone/norco habit and ran out of pills before refill time, so my ex's girlfriend (which sadly she OD'ed and died like right after that) gave me some. I took a quarter of one and was so messed up I wondered if I was driving on the right side of the highway. Then the next day, I had to take 4 to just feel good, not messed up at all. Within days I was utterly, horribly hooked. Next time you hear a story about some person who shoots 40 roxies in their arm per day and you're like WTF?, just know it's really easy to get _that _hooked within 1-2 months (I kid you not). I am so thankful I never got that far into it. Anyway, I am super grateful I am not working or in school this week. Then again, it can sometimes be a good distraction, to keep your mind off things. So how goes it?

When I was in detox, they told me that benzos make you hungry. Maybe it's true, who knows. My appetite's been good. In fact, I'm eating way more than normal now. Maybe it's a distraction. I'm eating semi-healthy stuff, chicken noodle soup, lots of fruit, cereal, and of course ice cream 

It's really bizarre, but for me too, this time has been nowhere near as bad as the other times. It's still not fun, but it's not bad. Unfortunately I don't have insurance so I couldn't get any meds to help me. That may be a good thing. Ooh, I just remembered, I have one muscle relaxer left over from a back issue. Perhaps I will take it tonight.

My sleep's been pretty crappy, but nowhere near the other times, and certainly not as bad as kicking painkillers. I have always been lucky in regards to the RLS thing, never got it, even with mega "real painkiller" quits. Anyways, I've been going to bed about 1 or 2 AM after taking Benadryl, Tylenol PM, and other natural sleep aids. Melatonin never works for me, but I have valerian root and also some other combo sleep aid with skullcap, kava, some other stuff, and also sleepy vanilla tea. I know that's a bit excessive, but I gotta do what works for me. For some odd reason I always wake up at 5 or 6 am. I pop another Benadryl, then get maybe another hour of sleep. I'm tired, but it's nowhere near the 2-3 hours I normally get when quitting.

I've been having some sweats and chills, but it was actually worse when I was cutting down as opposed to now that I've completely stopped. So strange. I have some sneezing, runny eyes and nose, and tiredness, but nothing that awful. On day 2 I sold something on eBay and packaged it up, took it to the post office, and sang along with the radio and SMILED. That's NEVER happened on day 2.

I keep wondering myself why it hasn't been that bad for me this time. There are so many factors at play here.

For one, I REALLY wanted to quit. Not because I ran out, not because I couldn't afford it, not because people wanted me to, I did. I am keeping busy even if I am not doing anything crazy. I am keeping my thoughts on pleasant things. I've been reading these books that I really love, I've devoured 2 books in 3 days, and they're not like the horrible addiction and crazy books I normally read, they're just pleasant. They restore my faith in humanity (although they take place in Africa, perhaps I am travelling without getting on a plane . I've been listening to a lot of music on my headphones on Pandora on my phone. If it's depressing or brings back bad memories, I skip it. I've even been singing along (sorry neighbors). I spent 45 minutes today doing my make-up, just to feel good and have something to concentrate on. Guys, maybe you can trim your 'stache, or whatever it is guys do to work on themselves. lol. I've been hanging with my ferrets. Just watching them act like psychos brings a smile to my face. Oh, and I absolutely LOVE Mystery Science Theater. There's tons of hilarious videos on youtube. I'm sure everyone can find something they like on there. I don't watch TV, so this is what I got. You could also watch your favorite comedy movie.

So besides the stuff I'm taking for sleep, I'm taking my cleanse for the smoking stuff. I am still smoking, but smoking less. I know smoking is bad, but I'm not worried about it right now. Tackling this is important. When I was on kratom, all the cleanse stuff made me sooo sleepy . Since I am no longer, it seems to just help me be calm and that's it. I stopped having coffee, because I read it can make detox anxiety and jitters worse, and that's normally my worst symptom. I do allow myself a cup of tea. I did cave and get a small iced coffee from Dunkin Donuts today, and I did notice I felt a bit more agitated than usual. I'm drinking a bunch of water, I'm peeing constantly. Once a day, I put a tbsp of apple cider vinegar in the water, that aids in detox. I'm taking 4 loperamide tablets (Immodium) at a time every other day, although I haven't had the dreadful diarrhea. But I read somewhere that it is considered an opiate and can help. It does constipate ya though, which is why I'm not taking it daily. I do need to go eventually, lol. I take Advil for the aches and pains, and maybe just to "feel" like I'm taking a painkiller. Oh, and I've been taking multi-vitamins and fish oil, I heard that helps. And what I REALLY think it helping me above all (besides wanting to quit and staying positive)-EPSOM SALT BATHS! All of the dozens of times I quit, I never did this, although I did soak and take tons of hot showers, which made me feel human for about a half hour. There are some AMAZING things that epsom salts can do for the body. It can get magnesium into the body, which is generally lacking after taking any kind of opiate. The magnesium helps produce seratonin, which  is crucial for mood. It lowers adrenaline and blood pressure (and anytime I stopped kratom or other painkillers my blood pressure was INSANE, I couldn't stop my pounding heart, none of that this time). It also gets rid of toxins in the body. I even made an exfoliant with it by mixing my face wash in it. I rub it on my face and feet. When I first get out of the soak and shower I actually feel worse for about 10 minutes, lots of sneezing and eyes running and hot and cold flashes. But within a half-hour I'm good as gold, feeling like a normal human. And it actually lasts for a few hours. Google "health benefits of epsom salts, there's way more benefits than I've mentioned.

Of course, the thought is still there. When I'm shivering or whatever I think, I think to myself, "I could go get more and make this stop". Then I tell myself, "Yep, I could, but I'm not. 2013 is my opiate-free year!" And then that's it. There are other thoughts too, like since this is fairly easy, I could go ahead and start again since stopping is no bigee. But I've made a commitment to myself. 

Sheesh, sorry for the super long sermon. Can I get an amen?! Seriously, I'm just feeling so relieved this isn't too awful and I am so glad and thankful. Everyone can do this if they so choose, just do your research, and find what works for you. YOU CAN DO IT! (Rob Schneider voice) OK, I am _way_ too hyper, have a lovely night all


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## dmtmate

you just wrote a book lol may take me a week to read.


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## ScreamPhoenix

Hehe.. sorry! Summary: My withdrawals were not bad and all is well so far


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## podsnomo

Hiya Scream etal.!  

Scream, yo, I tried to pm you but your inbox is full. Clean it out, or post a bunch til you got 50 and get a bigger mailbox. 

K, so, well wait, first, Scream, I enjoyed the long read. It's inspiring to hear you doing so well and enjoying life some and singing and doing a lot of stuff to help you through, like the baths and all the supplements. I too am on day 5 now. But I've not really done much aside from eat food, drink water, and take immodium (loperamide) to ward off the shiets and reduce some of the WD symptoms. 

But it's Saturday now, I got off work early, and I'm sitting here entertaining the idea of going to get some kratom. Oy oy oy. I think I should go to a meeting instead. I know that if I buy a bag of kratom, it'll be there after my first dose, and even though I'd tell myself that one dose for now, that's it, and then maybe next week I could get another 4 grams or so out of the bag. Well, I'd tell myself that, but FML, I know it wouldn't go that way. I've been down that road before. Bunch of times. 

I'm an alcoholic. Yay me! Addict too. Yee-fuckin-haw! I think if I'd only ever been a drinker it would be easier. I don't have a problem staying away from booze and beer unless my WDs are VERY bad and I'm just dying for something, ANYTHING to knock me out at night. But lately it's not been too bad. My sleep is fucked up. I get less, but feel not too tired. But now I twitch in my sleep, so I can't sleep with my gf. That was part of the reason I relapsed on kratom in the first place. Periodic limb movement disorder is what I think I have. Anyway, that started after I quit kratom the first time. Then I got some, just to microdose, ya know, use enough to keep from twitching at night but not enough to get hooked again. Yeah, worked like a freakin charm. not. So, there I was for a good month or 2, no twitching at night, but hooked again. Wasn't planning on quitting NY's Day either, just woke up and had had enough. But now I'm thinking about it again. ARARAGGHGHG!

It's chewing on my brain. It's like, I just wanna get some kratom, toss and wash it down, sit back, put on some music, play chess online, watch some TV shows, and, ya know how it goes. My mind tells me whatever it thinks it needs to tell me in order to try to get me to go do what it thinks it wants me to do. 

I'm just gonna put all that on hold for a damn minute. MY gf is calling. Good timing for a distraction....

More later,
peace and love to all,
pnm


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## ScreamPhoenix

Podsnomo, I just cleaned it out. Stupid 50 post rules. It'll take me a year to get there. You know you don't really wanna do it deep down. What you're going through is just a temporary phase. It will pass. It may take time. Imagine the next time you and the lady "watch a movie"- you know it'll be great without that delayed crap! lol  I do think you should go to a meeting, or at least talk to a friend who truly understands. Or just vent here, whatever it takes.

I wish I could feel as positive towards myself & my life. It's Day 5, and I just seemed to have gotten worse than when I first quit. I wish I could go back to feeling great like I did a couple days ago 

I don't know what quite happened. I had a horrible day yesterday, maybe that's why. Lots o' drama over school stuff, classes start Mon, couldn't figure out what to take for 4th class since "requirements" from my community college, the info from the university I want to transfer to, advisors at my school, etc. all say different things. I ended up going to the uni and wandering around the campus with a freaking map in 80-degree muggy weather. So I was sweating a ton, but then when I got inside the freezing AC made me shiver. I wasted hours there, only for them to tell me "we can't help you", GRR! I was so mad. I only took a Benadryl last night to help me sleep, and don't think I had any all day yesterday. So I tried going to bed around 12, was def up to 1 or later, woke up a few times, and my last time was 6 AM. Alarm was set for 8. Couldn't go back to bed. Called out of work and went to my school which was annoying too, I was sweating a ton, then I went outside and it was raining and in the 60s and of course stupid me forgot the umbrella so I was shivering/sweating. Ugh. Plus last night I started getting very sharp pains "down there" (I have an annoying medical condition which is one of the things that caused me to start abusing painkillers in the first place practically a decade ago) and also today. I pray I do not have my condition which will cause me to get major surgery, get admitted to the hospital for 4 days, take major painkillers, etc.

YAY... 

Well, I'm not giving in. At least not today. I like not having irritation on my face and chest and feeling itchy, and feeling all dehydrated. I like how my eyes look. Human-like, not all pinned. One day at a time..


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## Fresco

Scream, do you have unresolved childhood issues regarding physical/sexual abuse?! I hate to ask a personal question like that, but maybe thats where the problem lies.  

And if thats the case, there is a way out


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## ScreamPhoenix

That's kinda weird you'd ask that. But yeah, I have been through pretty much everything a person could go through (well, in the US anyway). I have went to counseling for years, group therapy, etc. I'm still on my journey. The good in it is that I want to help others like me, which is why I am going to school for what I am going to school for. And I'm not going to get anywhere if I keep masking the pain with any substance.

Oh, and my "medical issues" have nothing to do with that. For some reason I get reoccurring abscesses. No specialist can tell me why. Just in case you were wondering.


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## majicBLUE

Holy fuck, I didn't know Kratom addiction was that bad.  I usually used to buy it for my mom to keep her off opiates, not after reading this thread.  I feel for you guys, good luck


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## podsnomo

Scream, yall, whoever.

I did it. Went and got 30g. Took 2 doses last night. One today. 

I know how you feel scream. When I quit I feel lots better for a few days. Then that wears off and I want to use again. Thing is, I've been trying to not to drink or use while not working a program. That's a recipe for misery. That's what I got. 

I'm a people pleaser too. Always putting others ahead of me, esp my gf. And it seems we're codependent, and I think she's more dependent than I am. Today though, tipping point. I was doing everything I could to make our plans go well without her getting grumpy and upset. I planned to miss my AA meeting so we could see a movie, and wa ready to come over to her house at a moment's notice to fix breakfast like I said I would. But then she sent her text to my email instead of my phone, and 15 minutes later she's calling me all grumpy and upset. So we just talked. And I just told her that what I have to do is to call my sponsor, go to my meeting, and take care of myself. She recognizes that there's a problem. That me always doing more for her than her for me, and her expecting me to go along with whatever is going to make her happy is bad for us. She even said she feels like she relies on me for everything. She kinda does. OY! So I knew I just had to go. I left while she was crying. Broke my heart, but she couldn't tell me anything or say anything. She was the one crying, but I can't imagine how she could have felt more miserable than I did. 

I called my sponsor. Told him the truth, the short version he had time for. I'm going to a meeting later. I'm going to flush the rest of that bag, and in order to be sober and happy, I'm going to have to go back to working my program, and maybe twice as hard as before. For me, putting things, anything, ahead of sobriety is a recipe for disaster. Because if I lose my sobriety and relapse all the way, I won't have ANYTHING left. 

All the guys (and gals) in AA/NA who have long-term sobriety and are actually happy say some version of this: "It took everything it took for me to get where I am today." Some of them got clean and sober and stayed that way the first time. Some of them years in and out of programs and sobriety. And everywhere in between. But they all say that. I think I'm figuring out what they mean. I'm fucking stubborn, or more accurately, this disease is fucking stubborn. If it weren't for this, I'd be nearly golden. 

I gotta dive back in to AA. I know it's not for everybody, but for me, it's the only thing that works. And if it's the only thing that works, then that's what I just have to do. 

Here I go. 

peace,
pnm


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

majicBLUE- The kratom addiction depends on the person. Just like some people can have 1 drink and are fine, and others don't stop until they black out. If your mom's using it for opiate withdrawals, it can help temporarily. Some people can use it for months and months and not get addicted, others can't. So it just depends on if she's an addict. I am an opiate addict, so anything opiate-like I put in my body, I just can't stop. Some people can take painkillers for surgery then stop once they're not in pain. I can't. And some people are fine with the idea of taking a substance daily. I'm just not.

Pods- That sucks, but I'm glad you're still trying instead of giving up and dragging it on for months. And absolutely, your recovery needs to be #1. Your gf must understand that, and know that in order for you to be well, you need to take care of you. Once you're well you can have more to give to her, but it takes time. That's just the way it goes. I take it she's not an addict?

And me, well I'm still dealing with the crap. Day 6 and I'm still sweating/having chills. Did get 6 hrs of sleep last night, which I am truly grateful for. And only took 2 Benadryls. Still pretty depressed. Money situations are no good, I have no money yet have tons of bills. Need to pay $300 by tomorrow for my classes or else they get dropped. No clue where $ for books is gonna come from. I start classes tomorrow. I think my phone and internet is gonna get shut off soon, so if you don't hear from me, that's why. The bf (doesn't live with me) has been out of work for months and now his car is screwing up. No bueno. But I'm hanging in there. One day @ a time..


----------



## podsnomo

^^I second what Scream said, Majic. It can be useful for getting off opiates, but only when used when it is absolutely needed and then tapered. One week tops to be safe. It can turn into it's own addiction. And while people are _mostly_ right when they say kratom isn't as bad as "real opiates", it can, as witnessed by many here, become its own demon. 

My chills and sweats will come back tomorrow, on a Monday. Again. Ah well. Life is life. 

And yeah, Scream, my gf is one of the earth people. She's never even been hooked on cigs or coffee or ANYTHING. She's completely clueless. Her dad's an alky too, but unlike me, he's in denial. So, this is driving her nuts also. Literally nuts. She needs to call her al-anon sponsor and get cracking on her program almost as much as I do in AA. But I can't say to her the one piece of advice that, if followed, would be the best for her. When she's mad at me, which is often because even if it's something else entirely that upsets her, she gets mad at _me. _ Anyway, when she's upset if I were to say, "Call your sponsor, go to a meeting, and work your program," that would just make her madder AND less likely to actually do it. Plus, who am I to talk? Tonight will be my first meeting in over a month, I'm stalled just after step 5, and I took kratom earlier today. But she doesn't know. Last time I told her. That went badly, not just for me, for her. I'm not doing that to her again. I was taking my sponsor's relationship advice, but his track record in relationships is shit, so if he proffers any more advice regarding my gf, I'm just gonna ask him if that's in the Big Book (the AA book). If it's not part of the program, I'm not telling her. At least not now. The only part of the whole deal that matters in the end she already knows, which is that I haven't been working my program and it's making me nuts again. Knowledge of my use would just make a bad situation worse. It would be different if she were working her program or if she had some history of addiction. But she's such a totally addiction-clueless earth person it's not even funny. 

Hang in there Scream. It gets better. What are you doing to cope for now and for long term? I could give you some ideas/advice, and it'd be advice I need to follow too.

Peace.


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

Yo NoMo! I really think tomorrow won't be so bad for you. When I took real opiates for months, stopped for a week, then gave in for another week then quit again, my withdrawals were very, very minimal. Keep us posted.

Wow, do people like that even exist? No coffee even? Wow! My dad was an alcoholic for many, many years. He quit 4 years ago, but never got counseling for it or went to AA. So I call him a "dry drunk". He's just an old school guy, they don't believe they need help. Thankfully, he lives in another state and has a wife to care for him so I don't have to. He now has encephalopothy (I'm sure I'm spelling wrong), on permanent disability, can't drive, etc. Anyway, he affected me. But I don't let it affect me nowadays as much. I got a lot of insight through counseling. But she has to recognize it's affecting her and want to do anything herself. I think I'm gonna PM ya if the system will allow me to do so..


----------



## motiv311

man alive gurl  ... if kratom made me feel that fuckin good, I'd always have a cup of tea with me!


----------



## feelinblue

No one replied to this post so I thought I'd put it here.

"Alright so I started using kratom daily this past fall in about November and was taking about five grams a day for a month. Like three grams in the afternoon, then 2 or 3 more at night. When I stopped on December 7, I experienced what I now imagine Hell to be like. I was having panic attacks nonstop for about five days. severe depression followed that. About ten days after I had last used I was starting to feel better and got really drunk. Huge mistake, because it threw me back into full withdrawal again...

So, about ten days after that the withdrawals appeared to be pretty much gone again (only slight depression/discomfort), so like a true addict I threw down about five grams of kratom, and here we are in fucking withdrawing again, ten days later. At this point I just threw out the rest of my kratom. The severe anxiety is over I guess, but I'm still on edge and can't really tell how I feel. Depressed and a little anxious and just completely tired of it. It's driving me nuts. Yesterday (day 9) I tripped on 4-aco-dmt (very similar to mushrooms) and obviously had a terrible time, but I was taking it hoping it would reset my mind and help me to feel normal again. And of course I'm freaking myself out thinking this might have turned the w/d's in a bad direction.

The question is this: How do I know when withdrawals are over? Is it gradual or will it just happen at some point? Please share any success stories. The mental gymnastics going on in my head is starting to really get at me. I wasn't taking that much kratom nor was I taking it for that long so I feel like I'm screwed up forever (might just be the anxiety talking, as the day went on it got much worse).

I don't mean to sound overly dramatic because I know there's people going through way worse than this. I just really need to know what's going on.

Thanks everyone."


----------



## Fresco

^^^^ Kratom withdrawals in  a nutshell  (and  keep in mind this will vary from person to person):

First 4 days are the worst. Then you have a secondary withdrawal period that lasts about 3 to 4 weeks before you're completely back to normal again.

First 4 days expect coughing, restless legs, fatigue, sneezing, insomnia, depression and general malaise. Secondary WD period expect fatigue and very mild depression for 3 to 4 weeks


----------



## feelinblue

Fresco said:


> ^^^^ Kratom withdrawals in  a nutshell  (and  keep in mind this will vary from person to person):
> 
> First 4 days are the worst. Then you have a secondary withdrawal period that lasts about 3 to 4 weeks before you're completely back to normal again.
> 
> First 4 days expect coughing, restless legs, fatigue, sneezing, insomnia, depression and general malaise. Secondary WD period expect fatigue and very mild depression for 3 to 4 weeks



This is day 11 and I've felt worse today and yesterday than any other day.


----------



## Fresco

feelinblue said:


> This is day 11 and I've felt worse today and yesterday than any other day


Were you messing with extracts or plain leaf powder??  Also were taking other opiates before the kratom?? Your WD will soon pass, give it another week or two and you'll be almost back to normal


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

motiv311 said:


> man alive gurl  ... if kratom made me feel that fuckin good, I'd always have a cup of tea with me!



If you are referring to me, I assume this is a joke right.. b/c my super long happy & hyper post was written when I first got off of the kratom. Unless you're referring to something else I wrote? Did I talk about the joys of kratom when I was high on it? I don't remember that, maybe I did


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

feelinblue said:


> This is day 11 and I've felt worse today and yesterday than any other day.



I'm so sorry to hear that. I still feel crappy in terms of sweats and chills, but other than that I am OK. I got 6 hours of sleep last night, which was nice. I woke up early once, and that's it. Luckily this time I had hardly any stomach issues (maybe the preemptive Loperamide helped). I was only taking regular Thai/Bali. And like Fresno said, it depends on each individual. Their body chemistry. Their mental state. Desire to quit. And so forth. I never ever had the coughing stuff or RLS, even withdrawing quitting "real painkillers". The other stuff, absolutely, plus diarrhea, throwing up, etc.

Do you work, go to school, etc? Are you trying to distract yourself in any way? That's helped me better than anything I think..


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

So check this out. 7 days and still going strong. Started classes today. Financial situations worked out, I did have to drive around for about 5 hours today to make it work, but hey. Got ok sleep last night. Still having lots of sweating and chills, other than that, all is well. Anyway, I just cleaned out my car today and I found a kratom pill under the seat....

I am really debating about taking it. I am tired of the sweating/chills, also having some pain issues Advil isn't touching. I don't want to "set myself back", but I can't afford to go get more or order any. I don't even have time since I gotta go to bed early and I have to be at school for 12 hours tomorrow. I doubt one would even do anything (1 gram). Decisions, decisions..


----------



## feelinblue

Fresco said:


> Were you messing with extracts or plain leaf powder??  Also were taking other opiates before the kratom?? Your WD will soon pass, give it another week or two and you'll be almost back to normal



I was just using plain leaf Bali. The only other drug I had done is marijuana.


----------



## feelinblue

ScreamPhoenix said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that. I still feel crappy in terms of sweats and chills, but other than that I am OK. I got 6 hours of sleep last night, which was nice. I woke up early once, and that's it. Luckily this time I had hardly any stomach issues (maybe the preemptive Loperamide helped). I was only taking regular Thai/Bali. And like Fresno said, it depends on each individual. Their body chemistry. Their mental state. Desire to quit. And so forth. I never ever had the coughing stuff or RLS, even withdrawing quitting "real painkillers". The other stuff, absolutely, plus diarrhea, throwing up, etc.
> 
> Do you work, go to school, etc? Are you trying to distract yourself in any way? That's helped me better than anything I think..



Yeah, my spring semester starts in a few days. Hopefully the distraction of school will get my brain off of it.


----------



## feelinblue

ScreamPhoenix said:


> So check this out. 7 days and still going strong. Started classes today. Financial situations worked out, I did have to drive around for about 5 hours today to make it work, but hey. Got ok sleep last night. Still having lots of sweating and chills, other than that, all is well. Anyway, I just cleaned out my car today and I found a kratom pill under the seat....
> 
> I am really debating about taking it. I am tired of the sweating/chills, also having some pain issues Advil isn't touching. I don't want to "set myself back", but I can't afford to go get more or order any. I don't even have time since I gotta go to bed early and I have to be at school for 12 hours tomorrow. I doubt one would even do anything (1 gram). Decisions, decisions..



I would strongly advise against it. The slight "high" you might not even achieve from one gram is not worth going back in your progress.


----------



## podsnomo

Man Blue, you sure got the shit end of the stick for such a short-lived and relatively low-dose habit. I even read where you said you weren't even messing with the extracts (which is a huge mistake for anyone IMO).

The WDs are what they are. That said, you should be feeling better than you report. Are you dealing with other problems? How are you taking care of yourself otherwise? Eating well, etc.?

Here's my advice to feel better while you're quitting: 1. Exercise. I'm not talking hardcore. Just a walk a day will do wonders, especially over time. 2. Eat well. Lot's of protein and fresh stuff. If you have no appetite, like I didn't, I recommend a shake that will work wonders IME. Get some bananas, some soy milk, some vanilla ice cream, and a big thing of protein powder that's fortified with vitamins. That'll be like in the sports nutrition part of the store. Now, take 2 bananas, 2 scoops of ice cream, 2 big scoops of protein powder and however much soy milk for the thickness you like. Blend the hell out of it. Drink it. It's yummy, it fillls you up, and it's chockablock full of the things your body and brain need to get back to functioning something like the did pre-addiction. 3. Masturbate and have sex whenever you can. This, along with exercise, will help your brain start making more of the chemicals it quit making when it thought it had extra because of the kratom. 4. Take a shower as hot as you can stand it, then drink some herbal tea or coffee, but only drink coffee if you're not nervous and jittery. 5. Consider joining or at least maybe attending an AA or NA meeting or two... or ten... thousand. 6. Whether or not you join a program, think about how you will go through each day ONE DAY AT A TIME, sober. Your head will chew on you, it will say whatever it thinks it needs to say (mine does) in order to try to get you to do something to make you feel better with something external, like kratom or worse. 7. (these are not in order; do this first) take some immodium if your gut's moving too quickly, double dose at least, and use aleve for the pains if you got em. 8. Meditate for 10-20 minutes a day at least. Just set a timer or something, sit or lie down somewhere comfortable, and count your breaths from 1 to 10 over and over and over again. This will quiet your mind. The skies won't part and angels won't come down and bless you with full recovery or a 5 minute orgasm, but over time you will likely find that the majority of the suffering you're dealing with is self inflicted. My mind has a fierce motor. I imagine yours does too. If you're anything like me, you probably have no idea how devastating that wheel in your head is. This simple meditation will shut it off temporarily and over time give you more control to not only notice it but to say to it, "Shut the fuck up. Thanks for sharing, you genius of an arsehole."

So, my guess is that you're freaking yourself out a bit. It will get better every single day, though you will have some bumps, some ups and downs. This too shall pass. I would find myself saying that to myself over and over again, like if I was working and felt like I was gonna slither out of my skin, turn insideout like an alien movie and die in an explosion of panic, sweat, chills and the shits. It brought me some peace, just knowing it won't last. And I can promise that absolutely. It. Will. Not. Last. not forever. 

If you MUST eff around with psychedelics while going through WDs take a LOW recreational dose of DXM. Less than 200 mg. Do this only IF you feel you MUST use something to get out of the WD feelings for a bit. DXM made me feel all creepy as hell, but when I was coming off of a serious poppy pod (opium) habit, I used about 200 mg of DXM and this very mild trip that lasted all day. It dissociated me to a decent extent from the misery I was in. I was at my gf's house while she was out of town and she had netflix, so I just watched tons of documentaries. DO NOT, please, take that shit if you are going to be going anywhere. It's effin weird!

Best thing though, is just face it. Put up a sign in large print that says you are wonderful person doing something amazing for yourself. You are, ya know, right?

You'll know the WDs are mostly over when you start laughing at a couple things, when your feelings come back in full force (which is good and bad). Then, it'll just smoothe out from there. 

You'd also do well to follow some of what Scream is doing. Look at your symptoms and do what you think is best. Really though, don't use anything, esp not psychs. And google your way around the interwebs. There's tons of advice out there for coming off opiates and opiate-like stuff, like kratom.

Relax. You're not screwed up forever. Everything will be OK. Be kind to yourself for the love of Buddha!

~pods no more 
(also, kratom no more, booze no more, bullshitnomo)

P.S. After being on day 5 of my quit and lapsing by using once night before last and then 4 times yesterday, today has been pretty damn easy relatively speaking. Kratom free for about 24.5 hours now. And I'm off to my home group now.  



feelinblue said:


> No one replied to this post so I thought I'd put it here.
> 
> "Alright so I started using kratom daily this past fall in about November and was taking about five grams a day for a month. Like three grams in the afternoon, then 2 or 3 more at night. When I stopped on December 7, I experienced what I now imagine Hell to be like. I was having panic attacks nonstop for about five days. severe depression followed that. About ten days after I had last used I was starting to feel better and got really drunk. Huge mistake, because it threw me back into full withdrawal again...
> 
> So, about ten days after that the withdrawals appeared to be pretty much gone again (only slight depression/discomfort), so like a true addict I threw down about five grams of kratom, and here we are in fucking withdrawing again, ten days later. At this point I just threw out the rest of my kratom. The severe anxiety is over I guess, but I'm still on edge and can't really tell how I feel. Depressed and a little anxious and just completely tired of it. It's driving me nuts. Yesterday (day 9) I tripped on 4-aco-dmt (very similar to mushrooms) and obviously had a terrible time, but I was taking it hoping it would reset my mind and help me to feel normal again. And of course I'm freaking myself out thinking this might have turned the w/d's in a bad direction.
> 
> The question is this: How do I know when withdrawals are over? Is it gradual or will it just happen at some point? Please share any success stories. The mental gymnastics going on in my head is starting to really get at me. I wasn't taking that much kratom nor was I taking it for that long so I feel like I'm screwed up forever (might just be the anxiety talking, as the day went on it got much worse).
> 
> I don't mean to sound overly dramatic because I know there's people going through way worse than this. I just really need to know what's going on.
> 
> Thanks everyone."


----------



## feelinblue

podsnomo said:


> Man Blue, you sure got the shit end of the stick for such a short-lived and relatively low-dose habit. I even read where you said you weren't even messing with the extracts (which is a huge mistake for anyone IMO).
> 
> The WDs are what they are. That said, you should be feeling better than you report. Are you dealing with other problems? How are you taking care of yourself otherwise? Eating well, etc.?
> 
> Here's my advice to feel better while you're quitting: 1. Exercise. I'm not talking hardcore. Just a walk a day will do wonders, especially over time. 2. Eat well. Lot's of protein and fresh stuff. If you have no appetite, like I didn't, I recommend a shake that will work wonders IME. Get some bananas, some soy milk, some vanilla ice cream, and a big thing of protein powder that's fortified with vitamins. That'll be like in the sports nutrition part of the store. Now, take 2 bananas, 2 scoops of ice cream, 2 big scoops of protein powder and however much soy milk for the thickness you like. Blend the hell out of it. Drink it. It's yummy, it fillls you up, and it's chockablock full of the things your body and brain need to get back to functioning something like the did pre-addiction. 3. Masturbate and have sex whenever you can. This, along with exercise, will help your brain start making more of the chemicals it quit making when it thought it had extra because of the kratom. 4. Take a shower as hot as you can stand it, then drink some herbal tea or coffee, but only drink coffee if you're not nervous and jittery. 5. Consider joining or at least maybe attending an AA or NA meeting or two... or ten... thousand. 6. Whether or not you join a program, think about how you will go through each day ONE DAY AT A TIME, sober. Your head will chew on you, it will say whatever it thinks it needs to say (mine does) in order to try to get you to do something to make you feel better with something external, like kratom or worse. 7. (these are not in order; do this first) take some immodium if your gut's moving too quickly, double dose at least, and use aleve for the pains if you got em. 8. Meditate for 10-20 minutes a day at least. Just set a timer or something, sit or lie down somewhere comfortable, and count your breaths from 1 to 10 over and over and over again. This will quiet your mind. The skies won't part and angels won't come down and bless you with full recovery or a 5 minute orgasm, but over time you will likely find that the majority of the suffering you're dealing with is self inflicted. My mind has a fierce motor. I imagine yours does too. If you're anything like me, you probably have no idea how devastating that wheel in your head is. This simple meditation will shut it off temporarily and over time give you more control to not only notice it but to say to it, "Shut the fuck up. Thanks for sharing, you genius of an arsehole."
> 
> So, my guess is that you're freaking yourself out a bit. It will get better every single day, though you will have some bumps, some ups and downs. This too shall pass. I would find myself saying that to myself over and over again, like if I was working and felt like I was gonna slither out of my skin, turn insideout like an alien movie and die in an explosion of panic, sweat, chills and the shits. It brought me some peace, just knowing it won't last. And I can promise that absolutely. It. Will. Not. Last. not forever.
> 
> If you MUST eff around with psychedelics while going through WDs take a LOW recreational dose of DXM. Less than 200 mg. Do this only IF you feel you MUST use something to get out of the WD feelings for a bit. DXM made me feel all creepy as hell, but when I was coming off of a serious poppy pod (opium) habit, I used about 200 mg of DXM and this very mild trip that lasted all day. It dissociated me to a decent extent from the misery I was in. I was at my gf's house while she was out of town and she had netflix, so I just watched tons of documentaries. DO NOT, please, take that shit if you are going to be going anywhere. It's effin weird!
> 
> Best thing though, is just face it. Put up a sign in large print that says you are wonderful person doing something amazing for yourself. You are, ya know, right?
> 
> You'll know the WDs are mostly over when you start laughing at a couple things, when your feelings come back in full force (which is good and bad). Then, it'll just smoothe out from there.
> 
> You'd also do well to follow some of what Scream is doing. Look at your symptoms and do what you think is best. Really though, don't use anything, esp not psychs. And google your way around the interwebs. There's tons of advice out there for coming off opiates and opiate-like stuff, like kratom.
> 
> Relax. You're not screwed up forever. Everything will be OK. Be kind to yourself for the love of Buddha!
> 
> ~pods no more
> (also, kratom no more, booze no more, bullshitnomo)
> 
> P.S. After being on day 5 of my quit and lapsing by using once night before last and then 4 times yesterday, today has been pretty damn easy relatively speaking. Kratom free for about 24.5 hours now. And I'm off to my home group now.



Pods, you don't know how much consolation that brings me. I might still be freaking myself out, you're right. And to answer how I've been taking care of myself, I've been on a basically no-sugar diet, and go on 30 minute jogs at least 3 days a week. I guess I'm just extremely sensitive to substances. My God, I hope so. The thing that tears me up is that I was starting to feel kind of okay before I took the 4-aco, and not that bad the day after until night. And then come about 7 or 8, I went into complete panic mode. I was up all night, went to Walmart at 3:00 a.m. to get some Zquil just to knock me out (took the recommended dose, mind you). I guess I'm just worried. I need to man up and take all your advice, I haven't been exercising very much during this most recent episode, or eaten that much (have been having whey protein shakes daily). I think I'll head to the local smoothie shop and pick up something healthy and packed with vitamins and protein. Masturbation, I won't argue with that. 

I'm going to be coming in this thread very often, it's the only thing that helps me cope with this hell I'm living in, knowing that other people have been through this and gotten better. 

Thanks, Pods, Scream, and Fresco for the advice.


----------



## podsnomo

It helps me to know I've brought you consolation, Blue. It could also be that RC (research chemical, isn't it, that 4-aco?) that's keeping you bouncing off the walls some. Who knows. Doesn't really matter though. What matters is you getting better, and that WILL keep happening. IS happening right this minute, every single second you stay in the present, to the extent you can, and just keep breathing. And not using.

Sounds like maybe you are sensitive to substances, or maybe just the strain of kratom you had. Hopefully it was good kratom. I've heard of vendors mixing in OTC medication to make it stronger, the arseholes. 

Man, I'm so glad this thread has been what you needed, but I do highly recommend you tell a couple people. If you don't want it known in your friend circle man, just try an AA or NA meeting. Get a phone # or 2. You'd be surprised how helpful we are, and no one will judge you there.

Was this your first time getting hooked on something? If so, that could be part of why it seems so bad. The first deviation from being a non-addict can be a shitstorm, even if it's relatively minor compared to the heroin junky under the bridge. I feel like maybe because I've been through so much hell that these WDs I'm having now don't seem like much. Of course, not recommending you go down my road. That's one toughass, longass road. 

What also helps me greatly is my spirituality. I hated the 'god' stuff in AA when I started, but my concepts have changed dramatically. I place the higher power, my higher power, not outside of myself, like some deity, but inside. There's a lot of similarity between zen and AA, excepting the whole god-as-father idea. Destruction of ego (the rot of ALL my problems) and learning to live life in this very now. The present is all we have, but like we often say in AA, we spend a lot of time in our heads, clearing away the wreckage of our futures. That's fucked, I know, but that's how we are. And the earth people will never understand us. (Earth people are those with no experience of addiction in my book. That's what I call them.)

IME, I find that when we give our full attention and love to the present moment, no matter what it is, it becomes the most beautiful and wondrous thing in the world. Hard as that is to do, the idea is simple. 

Some zen for you my friend:

"When you forget the good and the non-good, the worldly life and the religious life, and all other dharmas, and permit no thoughts relating to them to arise, and you abandon body and mind—then there is complete freedom. When the mind is like wood or stone, there is nothing to be discriminated."

Sitting quietly, doing nothing,
Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.

"The blue mountains are of themselves blue mountains;
The white clouds are of themselves white clouds."

Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters.

Don't cling. Don't seek.

Water which is too pure has no fish.

__________________________

Two monks were once traveling together down a muddy road.
A heavy rain was falling.  Coming around the bend,
they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash,
unable to cross the intersection.

"Come on, girl," said the first monk.  Lifting her
in his arms, he carried her over the mud.

The second monk did not speak again until that night
when they reached a lodging temple.  Then he no longer
could restrain himself.  "We monks don't go near females,"
he said.  "It is dangerous.  Why did you do that?"

"I left the girl there," the first monk said.
"Are you still carrying her?"

____________________________________________

You don't look out there for God, something in the sky, you look in you. 
____________________________________________

Alcoholism/addiction is the only prison where the key is on the inside. 

___________________________________________

love, peace, and RIGHT NOW to all,
podsnomo


----------



## podsnomo

oh, and blue, what's with the no-sugar diet? Eat some fucking chocolate man. Live a little.


----------



## feelinblue

podsnomo said:


> It helps me to know I've brought you consolation, Blue. It could also be that RC (research chemical, isn't it, that 4-aco?) that's keeping you bouncing off the walls some. Who knows. Doesn't really matter though. What matters is you getting better, and that WILL keep happening. IS happening right this minute, every single second you stay in the present, to the extent you can, and just keep breathing. And not using.
> 
> Sounds like maybe you are sensitive to substances, or maybe just the strain of kratom you had. Hopefully it was good kratom. I've heard of vendors mixing in OTC medication to make it stronger, the arseholes.
> 
> Man, I'm so glad this thread has been what you needed, but I do highly recommend you tell a couple people. If you don't want it known in your friend circle man, just try an AA or NA meeting. Get a phone # or 2. You'd be surprised how helpful we are, and no one will judge you there.
> 
> Was this your first time getting hooked on something? If so, that could be part of why it seems so bad. The first deviation from being a non-addict can be a shitstorm, even if it's relatively minor compared to the heroin junky under the bridge. I feel like maybe because I've been through so much hell that these WDs I'm having now don't seem like much. Of course, not recommending you go down my road. That's one toughass, longass road.
> 
> What also helps me greatly is my spirituality. I hated the 'god' stuff in AA when I started, but my concepts have changed dramatically. I place the higher power, my higher power, not outside of myself, like some deity, but inside. There's a lot of similarity between zen and AA, excepting the whole god-as-father idea. Destruction of ego (the rot of ALL my problems) and learning to live life in this very now. The present is all we have, but like we often say in AA, we spend a lot of time in our heads, clearing away the wreckage of our futures. That's fucked, I know, but that's how we are. And the earth people will never understand us. (Earth people are those with no experience of addiction in my book. That's what I call them.)
> 
> IME, I find that when we give our full attention and love to the present moment, no matter what it is, it becomes the most beautiful and wondrous thing in the world. Hard as that is to do, the idea is simple.
> 
> Some zen for you my friend:
> 
> "When you forget the good and the non-good, the worldly life and the religious life, and all other dharmas, and permit no thoughts relating to them to arise, and you abandon body and mind—then there is complete freedom. When the mind is like wood or stone, there is nothing to be discriminated."
> 
> Sitting quietly, doing nothing,
> Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.
> 
> "The blue mountains are of themselves blue mountains;
> The white clouds are of themselves white clouds."
> 
> Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains, and waters as waters. When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters. But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest. For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains, and waters once again as waters.
> 
> Don't cling. Don't seek.
> 
> Water which is too pure has no fish.
> 
> __________________________
> 
> Two monks were once traveling together down a muddy road.
> A heavy rain was falling.  Coming around the bend,
> they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash,
> unable to cross the intersection.
> 
> "Come on, girl," said the first monk.  Lifting her
> in his arms, he carried her over the mud.
> 
> The second monk did not speak again until that night
> when they reached a lodging temple.  Then he no longer
> could restrain himself.  "We monks don't go near females,"
> he said.  "It is dangerous.  Why did you do that?"
> 
> "I left the girl there," the first monk said.
> "Are you still carrying her?"
> 
> ____________________________________________
> 
> You don't look out there for God, something in the sky, you look in you.
> ____________________________________________
> 
> Alcoholism/addiction is the only prison where the key is on the inside.
> 
> ___________________________________________
> 
> love, peace, and RIGHT NOW to all,
> podsnomo



 Again, I appreciate it. Maybe my body type has a lot to do with my reaction to the drug withdrawals (tall, really skinny). Surely taking the 4-aco didn't leave me stuck this way right? I feel much worse now that I took it. I just wish I had a time frame for recovery. I'll try the zen stuff.


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

podsnomo said:


> If you MUST eff around with psychedelics while going through WDs take a LOW recreational dose of DXM. Less than 200 mg. Do this only IF you feel you MUST use something to get out of the WD feelings for a bit. DXM made me feel all creepy as hell, but when I was coming off of a serious poppy pod (opium) habit, I used about 200 mg of DXM and this very mild trip that lasted all day.



The last time I took painkillers (after surgery) I read about the DXM thing. SO I bought some cough syrup. Of course, I had no idea how to dose it. I remembered kids in high school used to drink an entire bottle of Nyquil for fun. So I poured a capful, felt kinda drunk/good, and then of course my addict brain was like, "Well if you feel better now, more will make you feel EVEN better!" Probably took 4-5 capfuls (don't know the doseage). OMG! I was not only wrecked and out of my mind but feeling the withdrawals even worse. It was depressing and scary and I couldn't make my mind shut off or heart stop racing for hours. The bf got me a glass of water with ice cubes in it, they made that crackling noise, and I asked him if the ice cubes were mad. It sounds funny, but at the time, it was pure hell. I won't take cough syrup now, and if I even see it I get a disgusted feeling.

All of your advice was excellent! I'm about to go for a walk myself. Got a few hours to kill before next class..


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

feelinblue said:


> Again, I appreciate it. Maybe my body type has a lot to do with my reaction to the drug withdrawals (tall, really skinny). Surely taking the 4-aco didn't leave me stuck this way right? I feel much worse now that I took it. I just wish I had a time frame for recovery. I'll try the zen stuff.



I don't really know what that is, so I couldn't tell you. Please try to do whatever it is that makes you feel pleasant- movies, comedy, books, music. Try to keep busy.


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

Welll so I did end up taking it. It did make my pain go down a bit for a couple of hours, my head felt kind of fuzzy, and I also felt more lazy.

I don't think it set me back in any way, I still feel the same. And despite the chills, sweating, and not sleeping a full 8 hrs per night yet, I really dig being sober. I really don't want it anymore, all I can think of are the negative affects. I can't even remember why I wanted it in the first place, what good I thought it did for me. I feel more in control and more confident. I'm not afraid to be me. It's weird, but I'm going with it, and I'm quite happy.

Good luck to everyone. Hope you all have a wonderful day!!


----------



## podsnomo

feelinblue said:


> Again, I appreciate it. Maybe my body type has a lot to do with my reaction to the drug withdrawals (tall, really skinny). Surely taking the 4-aco didn't leave me stuck this way right? I feel much worse now that I took it. I just wish I had a time frame for recovery. I'll try the zen stuff.



No, for sure you're not stuck, but psychs can have effects that go on for a good while, and since all the mechanisms going on, all the king's horses and all the king's mean (meaning Science) don't really know what to tell you about when it will go away. Nor do I. What I CAN tell for SURE is that ti will go away. Forget the time frame. Seriously. The future doesn't even exist. EVER. It's always right now. That's what you got, that's all you'll ever heave, But realize that the idea of only ever having the present is just that: AN IDEA. Don't spend too much time in your head. You might do well, for the time being, to treat your mind like a bad neighborhood and never go in there alone. 

You are not stuck. Trying zen is not zen. An infinitely expanded present. A right now of foreverness. You are pure in spirit. You know this. You always have been, and you always will be. 

pnm


----------



## podsnomo

ScreamPhoenix said:


> Welll so I did end up taking it. It did make my pain go down a bit for a couple of hours, my head felt kind of fuzzy, and I also felt more lazy.
> 
> I don't think it set me back in any way, I still feel the same. And despite the chills, sweating, and not sleeping a full 8 hrs per night yet, I really dig being sober. I really don't want it anymore, all I can think of are the negative affects. I can't even remember why I wanted it in the first place, what good I thought it did for me. I feel more in control and more confident. I'm not afraid to be me. It's weird, but I'm going with it, and I'm quite happy.
> 
> Good luck to everyone. Hope you all have a wonderful day!!



scooze me lady but I think I came in mid-conversation. You ended up taking what, some kratom?

As for the rest of that, surprisingly enough, I'm in the same boat. I'm cool with being clean for once. I'm sober and things aren't driving me crazy. A fucking miracle. I just look around at things, see them, and without judging or thinking, keep looking, and I'm listening to the world. I can turn off the radio in the car and hear as much of interest in the road noises as I did in the radio. My dog really digs the happier, more playful me too. Now when I come home, and she's 9 mind you, she acts like a puppy, sharges around the house, grabs her toy, shakes the shit out of it and runs into the room I'm in like, Here Dad, here's my gross toy with squeaker, let's have fun with this now. And we do! 

Sobriety. Bless it be.


----------



## Father Stack

Hey all,
I have not read all your posts but can empathise with you all from what I have read. Long story short, I was taking kratom everyday for 3 years and quit while having to walk across northern Spain for a month (Camino de Santiago) I couldn't hack it so I started buying codeine in every village that had a pharmacy to cope with this shit. Anyway I'm off kratom 3 years now and I could never get it again because it was banned here in 2010. I had to come off the codeine when I came home and I swear that loperamide(as stupid as it sounds) saved any hardcore withdrawal and as I tapered that I am free form addiction for 2 years. All I can say is that it's so fucking worth it to get off kratom. I swear it was harder to ct off than codeine and before I did quit I was having fucked up depressing episodes that were all down to the leaf. Panic attacks were all down to the types of strains I was taking prior to quitting, I had been taking extracts and they are hardy. I turned into a kind of exercise freak, I eat smoothies every day and walk miles for exercise and get a familiar feeling of satisfaction from exercise sometimes that I did from kratom. I was not a social character on kratom, I am wayyy more social now and am actually interested in stuff. Kratom (if abused) kills compassion and turns you in on yourself, all you will want is comfort. I think it is a gift for those of us who don't abuse and can actually enjoy it but I just liked it too much and totally abused it essentially ruining it for myself. Anyway I wish I could show you how good it is on the other side sometimes and the kratom cloud will rob stuff from you, ye you will be comfortable but you won't have  a real experience.
good luck!


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

podsnomo said:


> scooze me lady but I think I came in mid-conversation. You ended up taking what, some kratom?



Si senor! I found a kratom pill under my car seat and I took it. About a gram, no big deal. Still going strong   I felt very "alive" today even though very tired from running around and studying and not getting 8 hours of sleep, but I'll take it. Chills/sweats were minimal today. I thought I was having sweats due to w/d but looked around the classroom and everybody was fanning themselves. Think the AC broke. It was 82 today, disgusting. 

I'm super glad you're feeling good. Your comment about your pup reminded me a lot of the end of the book by Anthony Kiedis, "Scar Tissue". Not sure if you ever read it, but it's excellent, it's about forming the Chili Peppers band and doing drugs and then getting off. Highly recommend!


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

Father Stack said:


> Hey all,
> I have not read all your posts but can empathise with you all from what I have read. Long story short, I was taking kratom everyday for 3 years and quit while having to walk across northern Spain for a month (Camino de Santiago) I couldn't hack it so I started buying codeine in every village that had a pharmacy to cope with this shit. Anyway I'm off kratom 3 years now and I could never get it again because it was banned here in 2010. I had to come off the codeine when I came home and I swear that loperamide(as stupid as it sounds) saved any hardcore withdrawal and as I tapered that I am free form addiction for 2 years. All I can say is that it's so fucking worth it to get off kratom. I swear it was harder to ct off than codeine and before I did quit I was having fucked up depressing episodes that were all down to the leaf. Panic attacks were all down to the types of strains I was taking prior to quitting, I had been taking extracts and they are hardy. I turned into a kind of exercise freak, I eat smoothies every day and walk miles for exercise and get a familiar feeling of satisfaction from exercise sometimes that I did from kratom. I was not a social character on kratom, I am wayyy more social now and am actually interested in stuff. Kratom (if abused) kills compassion and turns you in on yourself, all you will want is comfort. I think it is a gift for those of us who don't abuse and can actually enjoy it but I just liked it too much and totally abused it essentially ruining it for myself. Anyway I wish I could show you how good it is on the other side sometimes and the kratom cloud will rob stuff from you, ye you will be comfortable but you won't have  a real experience.
> good luck!



Hi there! Did you write about this on bluelight? If so, it was one of the first things I read on here. Congratulations on your sobriety! That's freaking awesome, keep up the good work. It's really inspiring. 

I took the loperamide as well this time. I was addicted to real painkillers (mainly vicodin, but I'd take anything so long as it _wasn't_ codeine, I'm allergic). I found my first time quitting kratom (I mean, really quitting after months of use, not stopping after 1 week), it was _freaking awful_. I had diarrhea for about 2 weeks, and then I just gave in and went back. This time was way easier, for some reason. No stomach problems, really. I wrote a very long, rather annoying post about how great I was feeling and all of the stuff I did to make the quitting easier..


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

Hi everyone. I hope everyone is doing well.

I've hit a wall, so to speak. The withdrawals are worse than ever. The other night I got 7 hours of sleep, but after that, I've been waking up early and only getting about 5 hours, if that. It's getting super annoying. On top of it, I'm sneezing constantly, eyes running, stomach problems, headache, having stomach cramps, back pain, even my tailbone is killing me (I injured it at work a few weeks ago). I worked today and was so miserable. I really wanted to die. It's like, when I'm on any type of opiate, painkillers or kratom, I want to be off of it. Then when I'm finally off of it, all I want to be on it. It's ridiculous. I was so excited thinking that the withdrawals weren't that bad this time, I can finally get on with my life, and then it somehow got worse. I entertained the thought of getting it for a little while, but talked myself out of it. I really hope it gets better. I feel like I'm going to be stuck this way forever, though I know deep-down that isn't true. I just wish I had a timetable; if I knew in say, one week, I'd be out of the woods, I'd hold on. But what if this drags on for weeks? Someone help please


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

ScreamPhoenix said:


> Hi everyone. I hope everyone is doing well.
> 
> I've hit a wall, so to speak. The withdrawals are worse than ever. The other night I got 7 hours of sleep, but after that, I've been waking up early and only getting about 5 hours, if that. It's getting super annoying. On top of it, I'm sneezing constantly, eyes running, stomach problems, headache, having stomach cramps, back pain, even my tailbone is killing me (I injured it at work a few weeks ago). I worked today and was so miserable. I really wanted to die. It's like, when I'm on any type of opiate, painkillers or kratom, I want to be off of it. Then when I'm finally off of it, all I want to be on it. It's ridiculous. I was so excited thinking that the withdrawals weren't that bad this time, I can finally get on with my life, and then it somehow got worse. I entertained the thought of getting it for a little while, but talked myself out of it. I really hope it gets better. I feel like I'm going to be stuck this way forever, though I know deep-down that isn't true. I just wish I had a timetable; if I knew in say, one week, I'd be out of the woods, I'd hold on. But what if this drags on for weeks? Someone help please



Oh, and can't forget the sweating and chills. That's been happening since before I even quit, so it feels like years. It's Day 12, minus my "1 gram" experiment.


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## XxxshortyxxX

I have used these forums for about 3 years to help me through an opiate addiction and to answer all my questions about certain subtances. I have learned everything I need to know about kratom, exept one thing, how long does it take to become physically dependent? I am enjoying Kratom alot and I dont want to have another "addiction". Can anyone share how long they were on kratom before dependency occured? How hard was it to stop? Right now I compare kratom to coffee in my life, is it more dangerous than I think?


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

XxxshortyxxX said:


> I have used these forums for about 3 years to help me through an opiate addiction and to answer all my questions about certain subtances. I have learned everything I need to know about kratom, exept one thing, how long does it take to become physically dependent? I am enjoying Kratom alot and I dont want to have another "addiction". Can anyone share how long they were on kratom before dependency occured? How hard was it to stop? Right now I compare kratom to coffee in my life, is it more dangerous than I think?



There's no specific timeframe.. I used it also for opiate addiction and then it became my new addiction. It depends on the person. Read this entire thread to get a feel for what some of us went through. I have a friend who takes 15-20 grams per day, but b/c he does it all at once he is never physically addicted. He likes to get really messed up for a little while, whereas I use opiates to function in daily life and not be "high" and no one is the wiser, but that causes me to be more addicted than him.

So, do you do it daily, or several times per day? Are you using the regular kind or the stronger ones, and so forth..

If you have an "addictive personality" and aren't addicted yet, I'd stay away. However, it is not "dangerous" in a sense. I don't know what kind of opiates you were on before (obviously constantly shooting up heroin is more dangerous than occasionally taking codeine or something), but you can't OD on kratom, you're not going to get arrested over it, and so forth. But addictions in general can be dangerous, mentally more so than anything. 

I am not sure if this thread is closed, I haven't checked it b/c I didn't get a response from 1/12, so feel free to PM me and tell me a little more. Take care.


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## XxxshortyxxX

Im new and not sure how to PM so I sent a friend request. I am a daily user at this point. When I run out I do not feel that I NEED it but I have chronic pain and nothing else works (besides opiates) so I usually take it  through out the day to manage my pain. I do have an addictive personality, and that is why I am concerned. I use probably 20 grams a day max. I try to stay away from extracts because they are more expensive and less effective in my opinion.


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## don8929

Hello, first timer here but wanted to add my 2cents.  I just recently quit a 3 year daily kratom habit.  I had been tapering and planning to quit for some time now.  I had gotten down from 5 grams 4 to 5 times daily to just 2 grams 4 to 5 times daily.  I had actually planned on tapering more when I had an unexpected day off from work on Friday Feb 15th and figured why not try and use this opportunity to kick and just see how it goes.  It had been years since I had gone even 24 hours without and I had a lot of fear about how this was going to go.  The first few days were tough, all the classic symptoms.....chills, depression, anxiety, stomach pain, RLS.  I had built up a "withdrawal kit" for the day that was bound to come eventually and it sure did come in handy.  I used Xuan Xia (google it, very effective), black seed oil, loperamide, melatonin, nyquil, and some fine ground kava powder that ironically I got from the same local herb shop where  I originally was introduced to kratom.  After 5 days I was feeling much better.  And then on day 7 I rationalized a research experiment where I took 4 grams, all I can really say is that it was disappointing.  It was nice for about an hour but nowhere near what I would have thought it would have been after a 7 day tolerance reset.  And then after an hour it just sort of faded into nothing.  The next day I felt like crap.  That has been my only slip so far, it's been 9 days since then.  This biggest problem I'm having at the moment is the fantasy that I will someday be able to come back to kratom and use it responsibly.  I know that isn't going to happen but damn its a tenacious little fantasy that doesn't want to go away.  I still have my stash, probably a kilo and a half of assorted strains, and that fantasy is the only thing preventing me from throwing it out.  Although I know that I'm going to have to if I want to be free of this dependency.  And it DOES feel good to be free of it.  For 3 years now I've lived life feeling like there's a timer counting down on my sanity at all times because it was so dependent on Kratom to do anything.  The most shameful thing about this was that its been a secret.  My wife still doesn't know, that was a big part of my wanting to break free from it because it was only a matter of time before it got exposed.  Every time she would call my heart would skip a beat as I thought "Oh crap she came across my kratom stash and this is the conversation I've been dreading".  I used to go to AA and what helped motivate me was I finally broke down and came clean with an old AA friend that I had enough trust in to be honest with.  

Anyway, I'm doing better now.  I'm having moments of exhilaration here and there, music is incredible to listen to, I'm eating without having to worry about it interferring with my kratom dosing, and I can't believe I got free of it at last.  This forum has been a big boost for me to read through occasionally and get some inspiration from so I had to go ahead and join/post.  I'm still having a hard time getting going in the mornings so I have a feeling that I'm not out of the woods just yet but damn I want to hang in there.  Thanks everyone for being here, it can be easy to justify kratom dependence as a low-level issue that isn't very severe and it may be for some people but some of us just can't handle it very well.


----------



## adamdaniel911

Hello and wishing a very good day to everyone here !

My name is adam and i am a kratom dependency . I need help because of some reason i din't manage to success quit kratom .
I can tell that i am having a problem with self-confident , where i weak .

First let me tell you how i get started , at first kratom always a wonder drug it helps me in my chills , nervous , confident , energy and motivation .

When i started taking kratom the first 2 month , it regain myself together . I felt like i am very energetic and hyperactive . Then i start to study about kratom in the internet , my conclusion that it is maybe a good opiate like drug but when prolonged used it may cause side effect .

Then i started to quit for month , but soon . I got the nightmare dealer , who keep calling me , and texting me he gave me a promotion price . I refused to take at first , but when there is nothing else to do with that evening , i decide to buy .

Then i forget about the effect of kratom , the duration i am taking it , the dosage . Until that one day , i decide to drink 4-6 times per day . After a while , its already 1 year addiction .

Now , i getting really hard for me stop , because when i delayed my dose even for 30minutes i can already feels the withdrawal symptom . I am a heavy drinker now . I need to stop , i din't feels good anymore while on it , just feel normal and if i don't take it feels that i have mental problem . Like sad , scare , feelsnot real .

I am really regret on what happen . I wish i could make a better choice . But life goes on . And i struggle to stop . Every single day i would think about how lucky i am if i would be normal back . I did try to lowering the dosage but is it not working because of my psychology i would think this is the last day , last day ... But none of that day i finally stop .

Right now also i experience some difficulty of thought , thinking , solution , and when i try to it gets my brain to receive unusual pain . That would make me feel dizzy and anxiety .

Thats all i think , please do respond . How do i get out all of this ?


----------



## Fresco

^^  You have built up tolerance.  Start cutting your doses in half for next 2 weeks or so.

If that doesnt work try buying "kratom stem & vein" powder online.  It doesnt get you high, but beats WD symptoms for many people


----------



## adamdaniel911

Yup , i think i already built a big tolerance ! Buying those thing , that's not gonna happen . 

You know what , last night i quit drinking it at 8pm till 9am today . All i can do is sleep , its only 12 hour .

I am 22 by the way . My parents suggest me to go rehab . At this place :

http://pengasih.org/ 

In that place , it's help you with addiction and the best part is the workers , president , founder , is used to be a drug addict .


----------



## Lady Codone

Wow, this thread has really motivated me to go ahead with my kratom "reduction" plan!  Podsnomo, your posts are golden.  Thank you for all your help.

My story:

I quit pods after a 4-year daily habit in late 2011 (longest withdrawal EVER) and was off all opiates for a good 8 months.  I felt something was missing, especially in my social life which is where pods helped me most.  So I tried kratom.  Found it a suitable replacement.  Eventually moved to daily use of about 2 grams.  (Small habit by most standards, but withdrawals are just as bad as pods or Percocet for me...only shorter).

Long story short, my health is worse on kratom than it has ever been.  I feel like my liver is overloaded and have developed ovarian cysts in the past few months.  I've gained 15 lbs in less than a month and have new stretchmarks all over from the rapid weight gain.  The pain in my lower back and abdomen is severe most days.  Still not sure what's causing it but the kratom is at least coincidentally related.

Right now I'm dosing from the time I wake up sporadically throughout the day.  I plan to cut back to dosing every _other_ day only in the evenings.  I felt my best when I used every other day, which is similar to how I used pods.  Maybe eventually I could cut back to just weekends or social situations.

All I know is that withdrawals--even at this low level--are like a 5-day panic attack laced with severe depression.  The feeling of "impending doom" is too much to bear, and I usually end up fighting with my s/o or trying to harm myself (not seriously).  The reduction is going to be gradual, which will hopefully ease the mental symptoms a bit.  I have small amounts of weed, etizolam and loperamide on hand if things get rough.  

Not sure why I'm sharing this, but maybe it will further motivate me to go through with it.  Thanks for listening!

And for anyone doubting the severity of kratom withdrawal: it's real.  At least for some of us.  For me it is indistinguishable from other small opiate habits I've kicked before.


----------



## toad.

Loperamide was recommended several times to help with withdrawals...where would I get that?  When I google I get the usual plethora of online pharmacy sites & I never know which are safe to use.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## RedLeader

^ Loperamide is the main/only ingredient in Imodium, which is found over-the-counter in most grocery/convenience stores and pharmacies.


----------



## Sidescoop

podsnomo said:


> Good question beatit. If you are sure you can keep it to just the weekends, then you have more control than I. I tried that many times. Never worked for me, and I'd caution against it.
> 
> As far as how long you should wait, I'd suggest 30 days of feeling good without it. I'd also urge you to leave open the option of not going back to it just for the weekends, that is, not going back at all. IME, you can do this without causing serious withdrawals, though you'll get some minor ones. Worse, IMO, is that you'll reignite your cravings every time. Right now, I hazard to guess, that your desire to use on the weekends in the future is because of your obsession to feel that good feeling again. Totally normal. And I'd be the last one to judge you for it. But if you try to just use on the weekends you will, likely, torture yourself during the week with the psychological cravings. Stronger men than I have succumbed to these and gone back to their old habits, and usually worse upon the return to the habit.
> 
> Kudos on the good run and eating better. I'm so out of shape, and a cig smoker, so 40-60 pushups over the course of an afternoon is all I can do, but it's better than nothing.
> 
> IF you go back to using once on a weekend here and there, be very careful. You get that Kratom in your hands, you take a dose, you feel good, then it wears off...again, and you think "ah what the hell, 2 doses is no biggie, then no more till next weekend". Then, some withdrawals, probably minor, and they remind of the worse ones you just went through. The panic of doing that again, and you just want to stave it off for now. "OK, just dose now and feel OK now, then worry about later later." Then, poof. The habit's back.
> 
> That's what I've done anyway. And I know of tons of guys who have done the same. Wouldn't you like to live a nice happy life and be pleased by the things that please normal, sober people? I would, and that's where I'm trying to get to. Once we've had a habit though, we have some feel-shitty to go through to pay for all the feel-good we had. I'm trying to spread out the feel shitty. I got off of pods, from what I've read that's a lot tougher than Kratom. But now I'm tapering Kratom, so I know that ain't no easy road either.
> 
> You might be able to handle the weekend only thing, I don't know you at all. But I know addicts, and IF you are one...well you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber. If you wanna try it, I wish you the best. For now, just take it as it comes, day at a time, and see if you can do 30 days without. You might be feeling so good then you won't want to chance going back to your habit, and you can spend that cash on something more lasting than a buzz. Do what you will. My main advice is be kind to yourself, and leave that option open of not going back to using ever. You may find it to be better.
> 
> Love and peace,
> pods-no-more



Excellent advise!!!!


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## Kratom187

Hey, first of all I want to say a massive thank you to all of the BL community here. I have been reading these forums for over a decade and finally decided I should sign up to share my experiences with Kratom. I have had some amazing advice from people here regardless of not being a member, so thank you to those who have helped me out immensely without even knowing it!!

A little background on me, i've been using standard Kratom refined leaf for about 7 years straight now. I originally started using it to fight against fatigue, depression and anxiety as I had a very high stress job back then. So when I found about this miracle herb called Kratom, I had to give it a try as I heard so many testimonies from people singing it's praises. I won't go into my other drug use here as I don't think it's entirely relevant to my testimony at this point. I want to share my experience in the hope that it will help others as I have been heavily dependant on this substance for a very long time, and now, I am nearly completely free of it's grip. I'll explain more later 

Originally when I first started using, I started my Kratom doses very low. I was mainly using Premium Green Vein Indonesian Kratom as well as the odd UEI extracts at weekends when I wanted to get really high. This was back in 2006 or so. I have always used the 'toss & wash' (TnW) method with ice cold water followed by a super hot sweet coffee. That was always my routine when taking Kratom. Every day before I left for work at 6:30am, I would TnW 3.5 grams. This would keep me feeling energised, content, motivated, happy & even a bit buzzing until around 10am. I would then come home from work around 7pm and take another 4 grams TnW, this buzz would be as strong as the morning one & last me until around 10pm, which is when I would eat dinner then go to sleep an hour later. And this routine continued for around a year.

I think it was because of my weekly Friday & Saturday night doses of 2 grams UEI extract each time, that my tolerance began to heavily increase. After a couple of months of this, I had to increase my morning dosages during the week up to 7 grams before work & 7 grams after work to get the same effects as before. To cut a long story short, this increase in dosages kept on going until I was taking 12-18grams in the morning & 12-18grams after work and lasted around 5 years or so.  At the latter stages of my addiction, I was easily taking between 25-40 grams per day in total, which is when I had to acknowledge I had a real addiction that had gotten out of control.

I tried to quit on my own and that is when I realized how serious this substance was. In my ignorance, I rationalised it in my mind that this substance was just like caffeine as it was apart of the coffee family, I was wrong. In hindsight, I was just trying to rationalize it's use as I loved it so much. The withdrawal symptoms were horrific. I tried to taper down but due to all the stresses of work, I kept on upping my dosages again so I could manage. When I cut my net daily dosage down from 30grams per day to 15grams per day, I really felt it. Hot and cold flashes, cold night sweats, anxiety, depression, fatigue, insomnia, no energy or motivation, stomach/digestive problems and a general malaise. It was then I thought I've got a serious addiction here, time for a strict taper schedule to be put in place.

So I then began, I stopped using all UEI extracts first of all then I limited my morning and evening dosages to 5grams twice a day. I then kept dropping my dosages down by 0.1grams for each dose twice a day, so day 1 was 4.9grams twice daily, day 2 was 4.8grams twice daily etc etc. I have now tapered my dosages down severely with zero withdrawal effects now! I now only take 2.5grams in the morning and take 8 tiny doses throughout the day of 0.25grams each, so my daily Kratom intake is now only 4.5grams, and I am still continuing to lower my morning dose by 0.1grams every day. So at this rate, I hope to be completely Kratom free within another month or two at the most.

So, as long as you can discipline yourself with dosing and tapering, it is 100% possible to get yourself off of this substance relatively pain free. The key I have found, is to overcome the psychological aspect of the addiction first. So to do this, I instead split my dosages into as small an amount as possible. And taking 0.25grams every hour is negligible, as it really doesn't give me any affect, just satisfies the psychological craving, not physical . Just keeps all withdrawal symptoms at bay from my experience. 

I have since left my high stress job and now work for myself from home, which has definitely aided me in quitting the Kratom. I hope others can learn from my experience and use a similar taper schedule to stop taking Kratom, just go as slow as you need so you don't feel the emotional and physical withdrawal symptoms. Now I just smoke cannabis and have the odd drink now and again, that is all I need these days.

I hope and pray Kratom remains legal and available for all who need and want it as with responsible use, it is an amazingly beneficial plant. It is especially great for those dependant on opiates as I have had friends who have used Kratom and a similar taper schedule to mine to get them completely clean. No subutex or suboxone needed, just a strong desire to change and get clean. Happy to offer any advice if anyone needs it as I have been through all the highs and lows of this 7 year love affair with Kratom.

Peace.


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## thedawn

re kratom187,
big congrats on being done w kratom.
I took it at the tail end of my heroin addiction and yes it helped.
however,like you i had to INCREASE the dose like crazy.
this is the main reason opiates suck as medicine.the tolerance.

peace to you too,I'm also on MMJ,became a stoner after my hard drug addiction.
I just realized I've grown into a stoner.lol.


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## podsnomo

Wow man, (kratom 187), 7 years with that leaf. That's a long time. I know it's been about a year for me. I quit drinking and got "sober" about 2 years ago. Then I started using pods and after a while that pod addiction went sky-high. I finally got obsessed with getting free of pods, and did a long-term taper schedule like you are doing with the kratom. The kratom, I started using it just as hit the end of my pod taper and used for about 4 months thereafter. I finally came clean, again, with my AA group and my gf. Then after about a month or 2 of being free and clean I decided a little kratom would be no biggie. That was about 8 months ago and now I'm on day 4 of no kratom. 

I had a lot of quits in there, some after a few days, some after a few weeks of daily kratom use. They seemed easier. This is one was pretty tough though because I went about 3 months or so using everyday. I have the quits to be easier and easier. Maybe it's my experience, I don't know. 

This quit started with the flu! I had been going crazy, slipping back into drinking some, using kratom every day. And I just wanted out again, but I hadn't hit that bottom, or critical mass, or whatever in order to actually quit. And getting the flu, it was like God, or the universe or something just put its thumb on me and said, "STOP." 

I used during the first two days of the flu, or tried. Couldn't keep it down. So I had flu symptoms and WDs. Yeehaw. Now on my fourth day it's pretty easy. I've been using a bit of DXM which is helping with the RLS at night. That combined with sleepytime extra tea. (The kind with valerian root). I make two cups, each with 2 tea bags, and let them steep for like 15-20 minutes. I drink those down and sleep pretty well so far. Only had one night of extreme sleep deprivation, for which I drank, and it made shit worse. 

Anyway, my experience with kratom quits is that they're not as hard as you think they're gonna be. If you can get a long weekend, and make your last day of work be the first day without, then that day will be bearable. Then you can go through the worst of it on the 3 days of the weekend. Come Monday, or Tuesday if you get the flu too, you should be ready to get back to life with only some irritating but by no means debilitating WD symptoms. 

For anyone wanting to quit kratom out there, use loperamide when (if) you get the runs. Don't use it if you don't need it. Use benzos OR alcohol with extreme caution and moderation, and ONLY for the first week. DXM has worked well for me in relieving some the electric-leg/RLS symptoms. And you may have no appetite, so nutrition drinks like ensure or their store-brand counter parts can be very helpful in getting you protein, calories and vitamins while you don't feel like eating. 

Watch light, funny stuff on TV. You'll find that even in moderate WDs you'll be laughing again. You may surprise yourself. And if you're like me, you need a spiritual solution. If you wanna know more about my take on that, PM me or post here. I'll be checking back in as I can. 

love to all,
pnm


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## Kratom187

Thank you thedawn and podsnomo 

I agree that our tolerance can increase very rapidly, it was only when I started taking the UEI my tolerance to the standard Kratom leaf sky rocketed severely. If I never took any UEI, I think my dosages would have remained pretty level but I could be wrong. It was always the strong craving for me to increase the strength and duration of the Kratom buzz that made me say "oh another gram won't hurt me" and I kept doing that until I was taking up to 18grams in a single dose! 1 gram might not have hurt me on it's own, but it did make me highly dependant on the stuff over a longer period of time. Thats great you have beaten heroin with the help of Kratom! When it is used to beat more serious opiates like H and opium, it is an amazing substance, much better than buprenorphine which I also used to take after I was on painkillers after an operation, and withdrawing from that was hellish for me - similar to the Kratom withdrawals I faced but different.

Lol at becoming a stoner  I've pretty much always been one myself and I use it to make me sleep more peacefully, from my experience there is no other medication out there that helps to beat my insomnia (which i've had since my teens until this very day) as well as marijuana does.

Lol podsnomo, yeah 7 years has gone so fast while on the Kratom  One thing I will give praise to is that it helped me beat my cigarette addiction a few years ago. I used to smoke 20-30 cigs a day for nearly 14 years and I found the combination of Kratom and Nicotine replacement gum helped me beat that addiction too. Wow well done man, sounds like your situation is very similar to mine! I also met a new girl a few months back and she is helping me out so much with her support, kindness and just being there for me. Having a supportive partner is definitely key imho. Without going all religious, I also now understand the power of God and his ability to change our hearts and desires, he certainly has for me and I never used to believe.

Haha i've had the exact same thoughts as you! I said to myself a couple of weeks ago that using Kratom on weekends would be no big deal for me, but I know for me personally, that weekend use would slip back into my daily life again. So now i've accepted I will never feel that Kratom high ever again, which amazingly doesn't really scare me. I think it's because i've felt the extreme lows of this addiction and the thoughts of going through that again negate my desire to use. I really want to change and not be dependant on anything anymore, as my whole adult life I have always been taking something. I guess I view marijuana as more of a medicine than a drug, as that is the one thing I will continue to use as it is such an amazing sleep aid for me.

Reading how you came to quit again sounds like God communicating to you for sure! Sometimes we have to hit that low before we truly realize what we need to do. A similar thing happened to me about a year ago, except for me it was my Kratom deliveries going 'missing' and that pushed me into harsh withdrawals. I believe that happened for a very good reason so I could understand how dependant I really was and i'm glad that happened now as it taught me a critical lesson.

Yep now I take Valerian root tea myself and smoke a joint before bed time and thats all I need for a good nights rest now. I've never tried DXM before but I will keep that in mind if I need it when coming off the Kratom completely. I've noticed I am really feeling the decrease in dosages these past few days, I guess my body is still adjusting after being dependant on this substance for so many years. I think i'm gonna stay on 4.5g total daily dose for a few more days, then slowly drop it by 0.1g again so I can manage it. Lol it sounds like such a tiny dose but I can really feel not taking it! This is the best taper I have ever done and i'm still very shocked i've managed to stick at it. 

Thank you for all of your advice and for sharing your experience with me and others looking to beat this substance. You are 100% correct about needing a spiritual solution! This was my key reason to change and I now know what I need to do. Prayer and meditation is helping me immensely, without those I don't think I would have been so committed to stick to my taper schedule. You have given some amazing advice here, especially about benzo's, alcohol and nutrition. I used to take Etizolam a lot, at least 10-15mg per day when I was still on big doses of Kratom, but I have now reduced that to 2mg per day maximum and I'm also tapering that alongside the Kratom. 

Thanks again man, peace and love to all of you. There is always a solution to our problems, the key is identifying what they are and putting it into action.


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## podsnomo

So good to hear that positivity coming from you K187. I'm 7 days clean now. I still can feel the restless legs coming on at night and now instead of taking a a double-recommended dose 2x/day I just take it a couple of hours before bed. It takes a LONG time to work. I remember that from once when I was trying a CT quit from the pods (hell) and I slugged down about 400mg of DXM. I fell asleep waiting for it to come on. And when I woke up, WTF!.  I was trippin a little, but felt better. That CT attempt didn't work though. 

Anyhow man, you're not afraid of the God thing, whatever god is. I really recommend you attend some 12 step meetings. AA, NA, whatever. We have a lot of people who identify as addicts in AA meetings where I live. 

Cautionary advice though, once you get clean, it takes a lot of work to stay sober. 12 steps are the key. The fellowship of those groups is awesome too, but that alone won't keep you sober. The AA way of life is to truly LIVE. This book is awesome and has helped me immensely: Recovery--the Sacred Art: The Twelve Steps As Spiritual Practice (Art of Spiritual Living)

There's the AA "big book", the "12&12", and those are vital, but the book I mention above is much less centered in a Western sort of God-in-the-sky-pointing-his-finger kind of way. 

I'll keep logging in as I am able and seeing how you're doing. You need people to be accountable to. I'll volunteer.  But I encourage to tell all the people you feel comfortable telling. And, BTW, you can find hundreds and hundreds of them at AA/NA meetings. 

And the last word in your post is KEY. ACTION. It is ften said in AA that it doesn't matter as much what we think/feel/believe; it's all about what you do. 

Stay with it. I'll leave you with this about faith vs belief. 

Belief is clinging, faith is letting go. Belief holds on to something, and it can turn into holding tightly enough that we try to control. Trying to control life is playing God. We are not God, but we are, as we are each and all part of God. We cannot control life. Though our present actions influence the future, life happens no matter what we say or do. 

Because I cannot control the ocean does not mean I cannot learn to swim in it. Because I cannot control the wind does mean I cannot tap into its power. And because I cannot control life does not mean I cannot learn to live with justice, kindness, compassion, humility and serenity. 

When you swim, you cannot stay afloat by grabbing the water. Indeed, you cannot grab the water. You must let go of it and float. You must interact. You must respond to your environment to stay alive. This is faith. Letting go. 

Love to all,
pods (no more!)


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## followmeuwillc

Wow. What awesome support. I've been reading this thread for over an hour now. I had no idea how bad kratom withdrawals could be. I'm on day 4. The anxiety feels like it's killing me, like an elephant is sitting on my chest. I had forgotten that feeling from years back. I think kratom took away all anxiety for me.

But I tell ya, I didn't plan a quit really. I've known for a while I was going to have to quit because they just banned it in Tennessee on July 1st. Well I went to Orlando on business, and having been 1 day away from kratom, I ended up getting a next day shipment to the hotel in Florida.  I was afraid to go through the convention without it because I had no idea it would be that bad after only 1 day.  There I was at a place where I have to be highly social, and all I wanted to do was get back to the room.

So anyway, that batch ran out this past Saturday. I've come off of hydros before. Maybe I'm just not remembering correctly, but this seems much worse. When I came off hydros though, it was usually after not more than 30, sometimes 45 days of using them. I've been using kratom now for 3 years, 4-5 times a day, 8-10g per dose.  I wish I had the balls to look up withdrawal symptoms before so I could have tapered because this is darn near unbearable.  The pain in my joints, back, muscles tensing up, diarrhea.

I started using kratom for pain, then it solved a lot of emotional issues. My little boy had recently been diagnosed with a tumor, 2 months later my 5th child passed away, 3 months later my 17 year old daughter ran away from home to get married. The losses were devastating, but kratom helped. Fast forward 2 1/2 years. This past January, I lost my job, my house was foreclosed on, I lost my marriage of 19 years. I about gave up on everything, but I didn't give up on kratom.

Sleep is out of the question right now. The first 2 nights, I layed in bed tossing and turning until 5 or 6 in the morning, then couldn't sleep past 9. Lack of sleep is wearing me down quick. Yesterday, I drank 2 beers and took a half of a zoloft, a medicine I tapered myself off of last week, and tried to take a nap. I can hear everything going on while I'm "asleep." Also probably not a great idea going cold turkey on everything all at once.

I almost gave in yesterday and ordered some kratom and was going to have it shipped to a Georgia address, but I didn't. I did order some Kava root, hoping that maybe that would help. It doesn't seem to be touching it.

Mentally, emotionally I seem ok for now besides the anxiety. This is insanely hard though. I can't believe I didn't take it more seriously thinking that meh, it's just a natural plant, how hard can it be on you?  Well let me tell you, the worst withdrawal symptoms I have ever faced. I would give anything right now for just one dose to take the edge off and sleep again. Don't know how long I can take this to be honest.

Again, thanks for all the posts. Many of you helped in ways you will never know.

fm


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## podsnomo

Hang in there fm. 

For the first week, especially, or WDs sleep can be the biggest demon. Or lack thereof. Seems the lack of sleep always did me in. I've always had trouble sleeping and have been prescribed one sleep med or another for years now. I don't ever abuse them though. ANyhow, when detoxing, whatev, sleep is impossible even with the sleep medicine. The RLS kills me! This time around, I've been taking twice the recommended dose of DXM about 2 hours before bed, taking my sleep pill, making sleepy time extra tea (with valerian), and taking some herbal sleep supplements. That combo didn't work in the past until I added a little DXM. It seems to help the restless legs. They still feel kind of electric, but I'm OK enough with not moving them that I can sleep/ At least a few hours anyway, which is way better than none. 

BE CAREFUL though if you try using some DXM for RLS. I took too much once, probably about 150 mg (instead of 60 like i in 2 doses). I went to an AA meeting. As the meeting was ending I stood up and felt weird as hell, and not in a good way. I got panicky and had to get out of there. And then I could not sleep. So, if you use a little DXM, just use a little. Too much will keep you up and intensify (for me it did) the WD effects. 

Mentally and emotionally and spiritually are the keys. Mind, body, spirit. You need not believe in a god, but you do, if you're anything like me, need a spiritual solution. Try a few 12 step meetings. What do you have to lose? And don't judge it all on one or two meetings. Got to several. See what we got. See if you want it. It's working for me, and though I've slipped up recently, I know I have a solution that works as long as I work it. So I'm doing that again. And my life is immeasurably better ALREADY.

If you've found your way back to some kratom or other opioid already, do not despair. You can always get well when you want to. Gotta want it. 

Lemme know if I can be of service to you. 

pnm


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## followmeuwillc

Wow. Thank you so much for replying. I've been checking my email since yesterday hoping someone was still on here, but never got an email. hmm, I subscribed. Anyway..

Still clean. To be honest, I really don't know what day clean it is now. 4 was an estimation, running out Saturday was an estimation. I wasn't really planning a "quit" as I didn't anticipate anything like this.  I could have sworn that I ran out a month or so ago, went a week without any, and don't remember any adverse affects.  It makes me wonder if I'm self-creating these withdrawals, manifesting it somehow.  Or maybe before just knowing I could get more any time prevented some of this.

After drinking kava yesterday, I slept good last night.  I don't have any DXM and am weirdly afraid to go out in public to get it, or maybe just not motivated to go.  I don't understand these temperature changes. Last night I was hot, sweating, had to sleep with a fan blowing on me. Now I'm freezing, but my hands and feet are sweating.

AA is a wonderful place. Went weekly for almost 5 years.  I found my higher power there actually, and he was a much different dude than I was brought up with. I tried to find a meeting here, but the number is disconnected. Closest one is an hour drive, and I can't imagine driving 2 hours round trip right now.

I don't want find any opiate or more kratom now that I know what this is like. I do fear the future, how long this will last, if it will actually get better. My mind tells me I needed it, not just wanted it, that it solved a lot of issues that will only return without it.

This is awful. I can't enjoy anything. TV sucks, even writing this is like pulling teeth. I've lost my inspiration, my drive, all motivation for my new business I'm trying to get rolling. I did the push-ups today as suggested. But I have only eaten one bowl of ramen noodles today. I did force down some pintos and mac and cheese last night.

My joints continue to ache. If I do much around the house, my back starts to hurt after only 15 minutes. I hope this helps someone somehow. I think it's helping me to reach out, but then again, if it is helping, why is it so hard?

Thank you so much for replying. When I saw that, there was a small "thank goodness" moment.

fm


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## ScreamPhoenix

First of all, I just wanted to wish everyone who has quit kratom (or is trying to quit kratom) the best of luck, and may God bless you. You can do it.

So I used to post on here when I tried to quit kratom back in January. I only lasted 10 days. And now I have quit again.

Miracle of miracles, I never got above 9 grams per day (but then again, who knows how much I was REALLY taking, was in capsule form).

So the week before last I was running low and just said F it. I dropped down to 8 grams per day for like 3 days, attempted to just completely quit and took 5, then 4, then 5, 4, 3, 3, 1. Yeah..Not a slow taper by any means, but I suppose better than dropping from 9 to 0. Regardless I'm completely out, so that's that.

Dunno if I should count my "one gram" day as day 1. If so, I am on day 3. If not, day 2. It's pretty crappy, but I am trying to play mind games with myself. My throat is quite sore, so I am just telling myself I am sick. If that doesn't work, I just remind myself that this is my body ridding itself of toxins, and once it's done, I no longer have to deal with it again.

I found a full-time job, I left an hour early Thurs saying my throat hurt etc. I went to the hospital b/c my work requires a Dr's note. I told them the truth. Some ER peeps heard of it, some didn't. I hoped to get some clonodine b/c I heard that helps with chills/sweats but no go. I did get a 3 day supply of xanax. I know hospital seems extreme, but I am poor with no insurance, so that's my only option right now. So I called out of work yesterday. Xanax helps, it knocks me out a bit at least.

I'm just doing my usual. Lots of water, juice, fruit, soup, lots of showers, etc. Avoiding coffee because it spikes my anxiety and racing heart. Trying to distract myself. Would love to soak in the tub but recovering from surgery so can't. :/ Today's the worst thus far. If anyone knows of anything that quells sweats and chills, by all means, please share. I read somewhere brewers yeast? Don't wanna buy if it's pointless..

If anyone would like to PM me, I'm here. Good luck. We can do it!!! 

PodsNoMo, it's so cool that you quit too around my time. I PM'ed ya a few months ago. How are you??


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## podsnomo

Scream and Follow,

Looks like the three of us are nearly in the same boat. I had 7 days on my last post. Used that day and a couple days after too. The main thing I'd say to all three of us is IT GETS BETTER. 

Kratom (or whatev) does feel like a solution. I know it solved some problems for me... It gave me energy but made me calm. Made me feel physically good. I loved it. For a while. But like any drug, it eventually creates more problems than it solves, and then it stops working. For some of us, we quit before it stops working, but for all of us, if we take it long enough, eventually it quits doing what we liked in the beginning and we gotta have it just to feel normal. We're better off without anything fake, and with something real instead. Like maybe a spiritual life and feeling and being happily and usefully whole again. 

But the first few days/weeks of being clean suck ass. They just do. And how we earn our lives back is by facing our kick. We listen to our bodies tell us what it thinks of what we been doing to them. And we listen when they sing. 

But we can get a little comfort from some harmless stuff. Loperamide (immodium) helps lessen my chills and sweats and I use it even when the WDs don't give me the runs. I just 6-8mg once a day. Plus, we need to get our bodies and brains producing what they used to the way they used to before our addictions. We can help this along. Orgasms! If you're quitting some form of opioid like kratom, you'll get horny. Take care of that as often as you can. Exercise. Even a brief walk. A little house work. If you're aching after 15 minutes GOOD! That means your body is responding, slowly. The aches are talking to your brain. And over time your brain will adjust back to sending out the proper endorphins. If our endorphins were just taken away, we'd be in excruciating pain ALL the time. Those pain killing chemicals we produce naturally take a break when we introduce fake ones (which causes tolerance and dependence) so just as our brains slowly got used to not having to make as much of what it normally would, it will come back around to doing its job properly again. 

Support. This is vital. 12 step groups are great. But if you can't, you gotta talk to someone. Anyone you trust. Just us here is good, but if you can find someone close to you to talk to about this you'll be in much better shape. Even better is a support group. Support groups can be found quickly at any 12 step meeting. A huge help in my life. 

Eat well. Nourish. If you have no appetite and can't stand food, try to get some Ensure or other nutritional drink. They have calories and vitamins and proteins. And our bodies and brains need this stuff to help rebuild us and rebuild our pre-addiction brain functions.

Know you're an addict. For me, I know. I know that even once I get past all the WDs and PAWS and whatever else is a part of getting clean that I am not immune. I am strangely insane. My mind will tell me it's ok to go get some more. Ya know, it's been 2 weeks, just one. Or 2 months or 2 years or WHATEVER my brain thinks it has to say, it'll say it to me. And once I put one in me, it's over. I'm off and running. If not that day, soon. Cunning, baffling, powerful. I have to live a solution that is one day at a time. Some days are bitches. Some are great. But they can level out into far happier lives than we could ever imagine if we work towards looking to what we can pack into the stream of life rather than what we can try and get out of it. 

love and peace to all,
hang in there guys,
pnm


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## ScreamPhoenix

Ain't it fun being an addict? Like we take something looking for the "solution". And at first it seems like it is. Then after a while it doesn't do the job and we're just taking it just to not be sick. What fun is that? So we want out. We quit. We suffer. Then something happens and we think, well, we made it, let's do it just this once.. And the cycle continues on. In my case, for almost a decade (not just kratom)  No clue how I've made it this far in life being addicted. It's just not an option anymore. I am fully ready to handle all of the hell that comes. 

I am back going to counseling, and that is helping. I am also doing a regular exercise program. Walking and yoga. When I get stronger I am going to get back into weights. Taking loads of vitamins and water.

Yesterday I was walking around my hood and was listening to some music and I felt alive. I felt the words of the song in the very being of my soul and felt something come alive in me again. It made me smile.

Oh yeah, I've been going nuts with the "handling my business" stuff. Lots of blazing hot showers. Etc.

Last night I took: calcium, ashwagandha, benadryl, 1 1/2 .25 xanax, this deep sleep stuff (it's like poppy, valerian root, passionflower, chamomile, lemon balm and so on). With all of that, I went to bed a little after 1 then woke at 5:30 am sweating and having INSANE stomach cramps. Frustrating. I'm going to try the loperamide thing. I wasn't taking it since I'm not having major stomach issues, but well, f that. I hate these chills and sweats.

But I'm staying strong. I can do it. Just like you can. We rock!!!


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## podsnomo

Awesome Scream. Weird. I too I am going back to counseling, besides doing whatever my sponsor says. Just after I typed that last post, lo those 75 minutes ago, I wanted kratom. Badly. And I was about 1 minute away from just getting in the car and driving to the little shop in my city that has it. Then. I just thought: something else. Anything else. I remembered I thought I still had the "Insanity" workouts on my computer from a year or two ago. I did. 

I made it through the first 15 minutes of the 40 minute workout and then did the cool down stretches. I took a shower. I just had a protein shake and now I'm sitting here still recovering. That kicked my ass. But that spring in my gut is gone for now. I feel no need to go get kratom. I feel better. I feel alive. Alive and with a kicked ass! But it's a good kind of kicked ass. Endorphins are starting to flow. 

At one point, when I wasn't smoking cigs but was using poppy pods AND drinking, I got to where I could do the 60 minute workouts all the way through. Don't know how I did that while pouring all that shit in my body every night. It feels better to do it sober. Even though I am pretty out of shape now, I bet I can get in shape faster since I am minus the insane amounts of poison I was putting in my body when I did the workouts before.

But I am not going to get into the future. It hasn't happened. It's always only an idea. And all I have is right now. That's all I ever have. And earlier, my right now was go get kratom or do SOMETHING else. I did something else, thank God. 

WE can all do it! We all rock! All 7 billion of us


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## ScreamPhoenix

Podsnomo, Thattaboy! I'm proud of you. So glad you didn't cave. I took 6 mgs of the lope and the chills/sweats have calmed down quite a bit. I am only going to take it every other day (have heard it can be addictive). I still have the watery eyes/sneezing/utter exhaustion crap going on, but it's not too terrible. I cleaned for a while today but my hip started hurting, so I stopped, and here I am.

Oh, and can't forget music. I personally am an underground hip hop head, but for some reason while withdrawaling (sp?) I only want to jam out to rock music. 70s/80s/90s stuff.

And you're right- all we can worry about is today. Don't worry about being out of shape, etc. It's just external. It is important to get some form of exercise, but it's not about how you look. The most important thing is your brain, which needs to heal, just like mine. One day at a time my friend  I'm gonna go order a pizza and watch a funny movie. Carbs, yay! lol


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## podsnomo

Well, goddammit, I did cave. Later that day. Yesterday! I got 15 grams and took it in 2 doses about 6 hours apart. But no more today, and no more hopefully ever. 

I'm far enough past most of the WDs that my little slip just got my achy legs going again today. No big. I can deal. Been sober all day, having some sleepy tea now and am about to go to bed sober ONE MORE DAY. One day at a time. It sucks I slipped, but I can't beat myself up about it. On the other hand, I can't accept it either. It's not OK with me. If I let myself think it's OK then it'll be slip slip slip and back into regualr using and then feeling like I can just drink cuz aww fukkit. Not going back there! 

But I know where that road leads. And I don't know where the road in sobriety leads. And that can actually be scary. Just gotta remember that the sober life is going to be better. Already is. But I've seen so many utterly transformed people in recovery, people who came from sleeping in dumpsters to having those light beams coming out of their eyes :lit up with life and spirituality and compassion and love for their fellow men and women. I want that. 

Keep on keepin on. Hope that pizza treated you right! 

Hey followme, where you at yo?
You OK?
Holla.

Peace and love to all,
pods no more
podsnomo
pods
pnm
whatev


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## ScreamPhoenix

Hey NoMo, I'm sorry to hear that, but at least you admit it and are not afraid to try, try again. You can do it. Really, you can. I have faith in you. What do you think did it for you?

I read somewhere that it takes the brain 28 days to adjust from a habit (anything). Is that why that rehab movie is called 28 Days?! Anyway.. I want to give it 4 weeks and see if I feel any different.

Me, I'm still holdin' it down. It's been 5-6 days. Still sneezing and sweating which is hella annoying, but it's improving. Also VERY lethargic. Very hard to get up in the AM. Been waking super early, by the time I get back to sleep, alarm is going off, etc. and I end up being late to work :/  I also quit coffee, because anxiety was always a huge issue when I quit, and caffeine makes it worse. I've been eating a lot of snack foods, I am trying to gain weight (weird for a girl, I know). But really, things could be a lot worse. I keep busy. That's all I can do. One day at a time. I feel strong and happy to know that my thoughts are my own, not drug induced. I dig how clear my eyes look. And so on.

I can do this. You can do this. We can do this. I'm done being a slave to a stupid plant. It's time I lived life for me and became the person I was meant to be. Not a fake person who takes drugs to not deal with reality and block out the past and all that stuff. I am ready, I am ...fine.


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## ScreamPhoenix

Well, I am still kratom-free. Day 12 or 13. I am almost halfway to my short-term goal of 28 days.

I'm generally feeling fine, although still having lots of lingering sleep issues. Night before last I got about 4 hours of broken sleep, last night was about 6. So that's not very pleasant while trying to work. Still sneezing a lot and having some stomach issues. But only took loperamide for 2 days. 

I was doing laundry the other day and found 3 kratom capsules in my pocket. At first I kept them, in case of "emergency". But I ended up flushing them down the toilet. Amazing.

I broke up with my ex weeks ago and he wasn't leaving me alone, stalking me etc. until I threatened a restraining order. Work is very annoying and stressful, looking for a new job. Start school again in a couple days. Major $ issues, filing bankruptcy, dealing with painful medical issues, etc. But I refuse to give up. Life will always be stressful. So where's everybody at? lol


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## ScreamPhoenix

Hi all, just wanted to say I've made it 28 days Kratom-free. It hasn't been easy, but it can be done. Feel free to PM me if you'd like any suggestions or even just to vent or whatever.


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## weekend addiction

I go through 4 ounces one week a month. By the end of the week my tolerance is pretty high to the stuff and I'm starting to get cravings. Some people on some sites suggest kratom has no addiction potential at all. Which is bullshit because Diet Coke has addiction potential and kratom is definitely more mind-altering. My heart goes out to you guys as I'm no stranger to addiction. Hopefully kratom will be one of those things I don't get addicted to. I'm using it as an alternative to opiates which I can't seem to avoid.


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## Notgivinup

Hi everyone. Just signed up. I am terribly addicted to kratom and want/need to quit. My story is essentially the same as most here. I've been taking it for 5 yrs. I don't know how many grams because my brain is so cloudy I can't seem to figure it out. If someone could help I'd be so grateful. I am taking Green Malay powdered leaf from a trusted big supplier. At my worst I toss & wash two very level TSP's. every 2 hrs. during waking hours. The TSP's are regular cooking TSP's. The powder is regular fine, not very fine. 
Anyway I have tried unsuccessfully to quit 3 times. The last time I confessed to my psychiatrist. She admitted me for a 3 day detox. I was fine in the hospital as they were giving me clonidine, ultram, depakote, and my usual klonapin, and cymbalta. The physical withdrawals were barely noticeable. Of course lying in a hospital bed with nurses taking care and checking my bp made me feel relaxed and not worried. Oh, also for rls. they gave me requip. So all was fine. Until I got home. The depression that followed was the darkest, blackest, saddest, most unbearable feeling. Crying, anger, anxiety, a feeling of doom, despair etc. I went back to my doctor, she tried giving me all sorts of different anti-depressants to no avail. Needless to say, I placed another order, and all was well again. I didn't tell her. I couldn't admit I failed. 
I am just worried sick. I did manage to keep my dose down to 8 level TSP's spread out until bed. With this dose I wake up with rls about 4:00AM. I take one half TSP, to get back to sleep. God, I need help. My story of why I started it in the pretty similar to most peoples. Fell and cracked my tail-bone. The pain was terrible. Was prescribed vicadan for a couple weeks. Found kratom while surfing the computer for pain alternatives. Bingo. Kratom. At first, just like everyone else says, it was great, more energy, happier, more social, etc. etc. All good. Then slowly but surely the stuff turns on you and you are NO longer in control of it. IT controls you. I can't get out of bed until I do my two TSP's. And now days even that's not getting me up. Usually I finally get up after my second dose. This sucks, it's taken my soul. A girlfriend of mine told me I have become a shell of my former self. I got mad at her. But it is true. I do the bare minimum around the house now. I stay on the computer almost all day. I get 0 euphoria. I just need it to function now. I know I am all over the map here. My brain fog is so bad. I'm afraid I may have permanently damaged my brain. I use to work and run my own business. My husband took over and I stay home. He also dabbles in it but is nowhere near where I am. He only uses two TSP's ONCE a day, after work only. He likes to have two or 3 beers. 
I know this is a lot to read at once. I'll stop now, only to add I've been reading all of your stories and decided to try the stem and vein taper. Since yesterday I have only done S&V whenever I started feeling bad, which is approx every two hrs.
It is 3:30 here now and I am having a reeeaaaalllly hard time not doing a real dose. So far I've resisted. I also bought some Anxiety free pills from health food store. i cannot get phenibut anywhere around here and honestly after reading a few stories about people getting stuck on it, it kind of scares me. 
Can anyone help keep me on track here? I'm sooo afraid of the deep dark depression. I have so many meds. here from my doc. None of them worked. Like seroquel, etc. 
Can someone maybe tell me about how many grams I am taking? Thanks in advance for any help.


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## Notgivinup

Beat It said:


> The last 6 months have been by far the most productive of my life. Great grades in school (3.75 GPA) full time, full time job, working out everyday, reading a lot, writing a lot of music and living with my girlfriend. All thanks to Kratom, no other drugs were really used or needed. Kratom increases my motivation, helps with depression/anxiety, and helps me focus/ retain information. However, bank account is running thin and I'm outa school and lost my job so I didn't have the excuse to continue taking it. It was hard to quit, took a lot out of me. Despite what people say, when you use Kratom daily for a long time, the withdrawals are painful. Went through a lot of Ambien to sleep the first few days off and a bunch of Loperamide for my stomach and then had to sit through days 3-5 without anything to help. Finally got my Ambien prescription refilled but I'm taking too much of those 4/ day to sleep though night. I'm on day 8, Need some help. My stomach is well enough to eat but the depression/anxiety is killing me. Never had any problems with the drug until I got off of it. I know it just takes time but I want some relief now and something to help get my motivated to get out of bed. It feels like the Ambien is counterproductive but it's the only think that helps with the anxiety. Trying to get used to not having my super powers, feel like I've been crippled.




I am new here,and just starting my 3rd try quitting. For me the deep dark depression is the hardest part.


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## rex12

Hey Notgivinup,  This is my first post on this site.  Just wanted to let you know I feel your pain.  I have been free of kratom for over two years.  I quit ct 8/2/2011 from taking over a pound a month, capsule form Thai Kratom.  I would wake first thing and swallow 12-14 large capsules and continue that throughout the day.  My story is like most on here, had appendectomy with rupture was on a lot of pain pills, thought I was addicted so I searched internet and found kratom.  Did a brief search online and it was compared to coffee and said to be non addictive for the most part.  So I was off and running, this tree was magic in the beginning, helped with work, social life, etc. But then as all drugs do, it turns on you.  I have never been physically addicted to anything and this was a big wake up.  I knew I was in deep when I would wake up middle of the night with RLS and have to swallow 5-6 pills to make it to the morning.  You can quit this stuff but you have to have a plan.  Taper is good.  I did hypnotherapy on day 15 off because I felt I couldnʻt hang anymore, that helped.  I also worked with rehab doctor that prescribed me all the stuff you took in hospital but she also gave me subutex.  I was wasted the first 12 days off, they were painless for me but I had my whole family scared.  Then on day 14 when all the detox drugs were done and I was on nothing my world fell apart.  It took me a long time to heal, I couldnʻt eat, sleep had extreme anxiety and depression.  I never thought I would get better but you do.  You have to be ready to fight.  All the advice on this thread is excellent.  Exercise is key.  Church was big for me, I would go with my family and be sitting there ready to cry the whole time, for me this was my higher power reaching out to me helping me heal.  It took me about 2 months to get an appetite and finally sleep 6 hours.  I never thought I would have to force each bite down like a shot of tequilla.  This stuff is no joke.  I work as a firefighter and always felt I was strong, nerves of steal type of person and this brought me to my knees.  So your pain is real.  I understand you and everyone else on here completely.  The key is it can be done.  My consumption was heavy and I went CT which is not the way to go.  Continue your taper and be thankful your not in nearly as deep as I was.  Your taking action now and its not going to be easy but you will come out a much stronger and wiser person.  

I recently had a lower back injury and have been on narcotic pain meds for 2 months.  I will be stopping completely tomorrow.  I actually ordered kratom with some severly sick thinking.  I was going to use it to get off the pain meds.  I had my wife ship it back to vendor this morning.  I need to begin another fight tomorrow as well but not going down the same road I went 2 years ago.  Thankfully I stumbled upon this site and was able to read all the posts which have brought my feet back on the ground and cleared my sick thinking.  

Thank you for reading this long post and let me know if you need anything!


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## Notgivinup

Yes! Please any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm having a very difficult time. I've been reading for days. This stuff has got a hold of my soul. There are so many different ideas,some involve getting tramadol. I'd have to ask my doctor and i highly doubt I'd get any. Others say taper. Some use kava, lope, even heard of using adderall for the PAWS. I need a solid plan. Right now i am all over the map. I need help. Thank you.


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## rex12

You have to decide what method would work for you.  I do not recommend Tramadol because thats a type of narcotic painkiller that has pretty nasty withdrawals from what I have heard and you donʻt want to replace one addiction for another.  I would also stick to your same strain and dose method.  Kratom hits many receptors in your brain and the different strains can affect those receptors differently which could cause withdrawal even at your regular amount. Your two options are to taper or go CT.  

If you taper you need to stabilize yourself and be prepared for a long drawn out, strict regiment.  This should allow you to function but is still going to be painful.  You will no longer get buzzed from it but rather dose to keep the withdrawals from debilatating you.  This will mean you need to increase you current dose to close to what you were doing until you feel better.  Then what others have done is measure with a scale how much they are taking.  From there you have to be very strict and slowy drop your intake say every week.  Each time you drop your going to be uncomfortable for the first few days but then you stabilize and hold.  Then you drop your intake again and repeat until your down to a point where you can jump off for good.  Just keep in mind this could take months and you still never feel 100%.  The amounts and drops are going to have to be strictly regulated for this to work.  Some people just do not have the willpower or desire to do this method.  Once you drop you cannot go back or it will never work.  

The CT method is tough but shortens this whole process to get you completely free.  Your going to need time off work and a break from life and responsibilites in general.  I would recommend finding a doctor that specializes or works at a rehab and is willing to presribe you meds for an outpatient recovery.  Your going to need all the meds you had in the hospital for at least two weeks.  Your going to start heavy doses of these meds and then taper them quickly so at the end of two weeks your off of everything.  Once you start the meds your done with kratom for good.  You need a good doctor that specializes in opiod withdrawal.  Be prepared for at least two weeks of all the stuff your going through now after the two weeks on detox meds.  This is the rough part and you need to reach out to NA meetings, have family support, talk to a therapist, possibly go to a hypnotherapist.  Be prepared for anxiety/depression/isomnia/the inability to eat/etc. but keep in mind your on your way to comlplete recovery and freedom.  Each day gets a little better and you will be stronger.  For me it took about two months to get to 80% back to myself.  Keep in mind I believe I was taking more than you and everybody is different.  The sooner you start to excercise, eat healthy, get busy, and most importantly get your life back the sooner this portion of the withdrawal ends which is called PAWS.

I hope this helps and it is only my suggestions.  I am not a doctor but sometimes those of us that have been there know best!


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## Notgivinup

rex12 said:


> You have to decide what method would work for you.  I do not recommend Tramadol because thats a type of narcotic painkiller that has pretty nasty withdrawals from what I have heard and you donʻt want to replace one addiction for another.  I would also stick to your same strain and dose method.  Kratom hits many receptors in your brain and the different strains can affect those receptors differently which could cause withdrawal even at your regular amount. Your two options are to taper or go CT.
> 
> If you taper you need to stabilize yourself and be prepared for a long drawn out, strict regiment.  This should allow you to function but is still going to be painful.  You will no longer get buzzed from it but rather dose to keep the withdrawals from debilatating you.  This will mean you need to increase you current dose to close to what you were doing until you feel better.  Then what others have done is measure with a scale how much they are taking.  From there you have to be very strict and slowy drop your intake say every week.  Each time you drop your going to be uncomfortable for the first few days but then you stabilize and hold.  Then you drop your intake again and repeat until your down to a point where you can jump off for good.  Just keep in mind this could take months and you still never feel 100%.  The amounts and drops are going to have to be strictly regulated for this to work.  Some people just do not have the willpower or desire to do this method.  Once you drop you cannot go back or it will never work.
> 
> 
> The CT method is tough but shortens this whole process to get you completely free.  Your going to need time off work and a break from life and responsibilites in general.  I would recommend finding a doctor that specializes or works at a rehab and is willing to presribe you meds for an outpatient recovery.  Your going to need all the meds you had in the hospital for at least two weeks.  Your going to start heavy doses of these meds and then taper them quickly so at the end of two weeks your off of everything.  Once you start the meds your done with kratom for good.  You need a good doctor that specializes in opiod withdrawal.  Be prepared for at least two weeks of all the stuff your going through now after the two weeks on detox meds.  This is the rough part and you need to reach out to NA meetings, have family support, talk to a therapist, possibly go to a hypnotherapist.  Be prepared for anxiety/depression/isomnia/the inability to eat/etc. but keep in mind your on your way to comlplete recovery and freedom.  Each day gets a little better and you will be stronger.  For me it took about two months to get to 80% back to myself.  Keep in mind I believe I was taking more than you and everybody is different.  The sooner you start to excercise, eat healthy, get busy, and most importantly get your life back the sooner this portion of the withdrawal ends which is called PAWS.
> 
> I hope this helps and it is only my suggestions.  I am not a doctor but sometimes those of us that have been there know best!




Thank you so much for your reply. I am having a very, very, very hard time with this shit. It is the depression and anxiety! I need to take care of my little boy. He is only 8 and needs his mommy still. I love him more than life itself and yet I cannot get a grip on this withdrawal. I've always had anx and depression. I've been on cymbalta and klonapin for about as long as I've been on K. 
I don't know what I'm going to do and this brain fog sucks too. Gotta go pick up my son from school. I'll write more later. Hope you are still with me on here. I need someone to talk to. I've also been posting on the other K withdrawal thread. I am needing as much help as I can get. Thanks for being here.


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## rex12

I would say continue on your regular meds, if you drop your dose improperly on the Klonapin you could also be experiencing withdrawal from that.  Check out Benzo Buddies online.  That will give you the real deal on that med.  The only way to go is a very slow taper on the benzo.  I know how you feel with being a parent.  When I battled K withdrawal two years ago my daughter was 7 and I felt like I was letting the whole family down.  You don't want to lose precious time with your kids, I pushed as hard as I could to be active, coaching her soccer, etc.  Once you decide on what method you are going to go with, taper or c/t, you will get your freedom from this tree and be the best mom ever.  Have you upped your dose of kratom?  you need to  stabilize yourself and then make a game plan, just jumping in unprepared is not the way to go.

I am on day 3 of stopping pain meds, I feel like s^%% but I have stayed busy.  I just got up from the beach with my now 9y/o daughter and now she wants me to go to the pool.  I feel like just laying in bed stressing over nothing, anxiety and depression have been bad, but I'm heading to the pool.  We have to sometimes just push through!  Keep me posted


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## ScreamPhoenix

Hi Rex! You can do it. Opiates suck. I've found distractions work best for me, so try and hang with your little girl as much as possible. Definitely push through

Notigvinup, I know I am a little late here, but I wanted to add that taking adderall didn't work for me. All it did was make the anxiety worse. Do let us know how you are doing.

I have 50 days free today. Still can't believe it. Still having trouble with sleep, but still, 5 hours is better than none I suppose. My memory is terrible. Don't know if it's the PAWS or daily lack of good sleep continuously wearing on me. Having lingering depression issues, but hard to determine if the depression was there first. Counseling helps. I just work full time, go to school part time, and take care of my ferrets. I kind of feel like, is this all there is? I have moments and glimpses of joy, and there are days I don't think of kratom at all. But generally my life feels kind of stagnant right now. I know if I just hold on and get through it, things HAVE to get better. I am considering trying NA again, even though I hate it. Also been praying a lot and considering trying church again.

I'm also going through a lot not counting quitting kratom. I have been dealing with a painful abscess I've had for months now. Went to the ER yesterday, all they gave me was antibiotics. Kind of grateful they didn't give me narcotics. But when the pain was quite horrific this morning, I had thoughts MANY times of going to the kava bar and getting some kratom. But I remembered that this is how it always happens with me. I get free of opiates for X amount of time and then some pain issue pops up and I'm back taking it every day for months on end. So I asked myself if going through withdrawal again was worth getting some temporary relief, and the answer was NO! The really annoying thing is that exercise is SO helpful, for depression, PAWS, and sleep, but I can't right now b/c of the abscess, it hurts too much. AGH!

It's like when it rains it pours. My dad was in ICU, he's very sick. My car was having issues and I am so broke it's ridiculous, so that was scary. Bill collectors keep calling. Etc.

But on a positive note.. 50 DAYS! It truly is a miracle.


----------



## Notgivinup

Thank you Rex12. Sorry I didn't see this till today.Hope you are alright still. I have been up, down, all over the place with my Kratom doses. We have a very sick cat, feline aids and leukemia so of course I needed more K to numb my sadness. 
I keep going back and forth in my head on ways to do this.
Honestly, I don't think I can do it without professional help. I hate feeling like such a wimp, but I just can't do it. 
I am staying steady on my regular small doses of klonapin. 0.5 twice a day, no more no less. 
Yeah, letting the whole family down is where i am about at right now.


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## Notgivinup

ScreamPhoenix said:


> Hi Rex! You can do it. Opiates suck. I've found distractions work best for me, so try and hang with your little girl as much as possible. Definitely push through
> 
> Notigvinup, I know I am a little late here, but I wanted to add that taking adderall didn't work for me. All it did was make the anxiety worse. Do let us know how you are doing.
> 
> I have 50 days free today. Still can't believe it. Still having trouble with sleep, but still, 5 hours is better than none I suppose. My memory is terrible. Don't know if it's the PAWS or daily lack of good sleep continuously wearing on me. Having lingering depression issues, but hard to determine if the depression was there first. Counseling helps. I just work full time, go to school part time, and take care of my ferrets. I kind of feel like, is this all there is? I have moments and glimpses of joy, and there are days I don't think of kratom at all. But generally my life feels kind of stagnant right now. I know if I just hold on and get through it, things HAVE to get better. I am considering trying NA again, even though I hate it. Also been praying a lot and considering trying church again.
> 
> I'm also going through a lot not counting quitting kratom. I have been dealing with a painful abscess I've had for months now. Went to the ER yesterday, all they gave me was antibiotics. Kind of grateful they didn't give me narcotics. But when the pain was quite horrific this morning, I had thoughts MANY times of going to the kava bar and getting some kratom. But I remembered that this is how it always happens with me. I get free of opiates for X amount of time and then some pain issue pops up and I'm back taking it every day for months on end. So I asked myself if going through withdrawal again was worth getting some temporary relief, and the answer was NO! The really annoying thing is that exercise is SO helpful, for depression, PAWS, and sleep, but I can't right now b/c of the abscess, it hurts too much. AGH!
> 
> It's like when it rains it pours. My dad was in ICU, he's very sick. My car was having issues and I am so broke it's ridiculous, so that was scary. Bill collectors keep calling. Etc.
> 
> But on a positive note.. 50 DAYS! It truly is a miracle.



Congrats on 50 days!!!! 
Yes, when it rains it pours. Sick, dieing cat over here. My little boys cat.My husband tore his meniscus (sp?) in his knee. Medical bills, ugggg I could go on and on. 
Keep it up, YOU ARE DOING GREAT!!!
Thanks for the adderall tip.


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## rex12

Great job ScreamPhoenix!  You are probably on day 54 now.  For me the two month mark is when things greatly improved and your right there!  It is very true how life continues on regardless of our personal battles.  I have a mess of stuff going on in my life, it was there while I was on the pain meds but didn't seem to matter much.  Now that I am on day 10 of my withdrawal I seem to be obsessing over the negatives.  I have a lot to be thankful for so each time I catch myself thinking about bad stuff I stop myself and focus on the good.  Much easier said then done but we can choose what to think about.  Each time your difficulties come down on you remind yourself your free from one of the most addictive, life controlling substances in the "natural" world!

Notgivinup, hate to hear about your cat and husband.  It sounds as though you are stabilized more so then last week.  I hope you are feeling better!  Try and monitor and or weigh your intake.  Figure out exactly how many grams a day you need to feel normal and then slowly taper.  Trust me you are no wimp, this stuff is for real.  I would be in a AA meetings trying to tell them my life was a wreck from kratom withdrawal.  Nobody heard of it and then I would try and explain and they looked at me like I was a lunatic.  At some point there is going to be an outbreak of people suffering from this if not already.  Now you are in the know and you can handle this!  Monitor your intake like the klonapin, treat it the same way.  I think you may find if you taper nice and slow, this will be very manageable.  Seeking professional help may not be necessary but it would be a good idea to start researching a good detox doctor that is willing to help you if things to get rough.  From reading your posts I can tell your a great mother!  I only "felt" as though I was letting my family down amidst my kratom withdrawal when in reality I was bringing us together.  I will check-in on this thread every so often so if you need anything let me know!


----------



## ScreamPhoenix

rex12 said:


> Great job ScreamPhoenix!  You are probably on day 54 now.  For me the two month mark is when things greatly improved and your right there!  It is very true how life continues on regardless of our personal battles.  I have a mess of stuff going on in my life, it was there while I was on the pain meds but didn't seem to matter much.  Now that I am on day 10 of my withdrawal I seem to be obsessing over the negatives.  I have a lot to be thankful for so each time I catch myself thinking about bad stuff I stop myself and focus on the good.  Much easier said then done but we can choose what to think about.  Each time your difficulties come down on you remind yourself your free from one of the most addictive, life controlling substances in the "natural" world!
> 
> Notgivinup, hate to hear about your cat and husband.  It sounds as though you are stabilized more so then last week.  I hope you are feeling better!  Try and monitor and or weigh your intake.  Figure out exactly how many grams a day you need to feel normal and then slowly taper.  Trust me you are no wimp, this stuff is for real.  I would be in a AA meetings trying to tell them my life was a wreck from kratom withdrawal.  Nobody heard of it and then I would try and explain and they looked at me like I was a lunatic.  At some point there is going to be an outbreak of people suffering from this if not already.  Now you are in the know and you can handle this!  Monitor your intake like the klonapin, treat it the same way.  I think you may find if you taper nice and slow, this will be very manageable.  Seeking professional help may not be necessary but it would be a good idea to start researching a good detox doctor that is willing to help you if things to get rough.  From reading your posts I can tell your a great mother!  I only "felt" as though I was letting my family down amidst my kratom withdrawal when in reality I was bringing us together.  I will check-in on this thread every so often so if you need anything let me know!



Thank you Rex. It almost seems like the depression and unbearable-ness of life is the hardest part of quitting kratom (or any drug) and that's the part that lasts the longest. The physical side pales in comparison. I really hate this insomnia stuff. I only got about 4 hours of sleep last night, and of course had to work today. I can't see straight. I'd just go to bed but my ferrets are still awake running around.

And yes, I am now on day 56. Interestingly, things started picking up for me on Saturday, day 51. I went to counseling, and my counselor made me laugh, like really laugh HARD, in a way I haven't in a long time, and it just went on from there. Even when I am alone, when I think of something funny, I laugh so hard. This may not seem like a big deal, but for a very long time I was doing the "fake laugh" thing. I knew that something was supposed to be funny so I'd fake it around people, but it wasn't real. Now I'm genuinely laughing a lot, and it's great. Things may be better for me because of where I'm at in my "cycle", but whatever, I'll take it.

How goes your detox? Feeling any better?


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## rex12

Hi ScreamPhoenix,  My detox is going well, tomorrow will be two weeks.  I have been having trouble sleeping and depression/anxiety stuff.  I thought I would be doing much better but I think after you go through a serious withdrawal like with the kratom, I must be more susceptible to opiates.  I was on heavy doses of pain meds but only for two months.  I was thinking after a week or so I would be good but symptoms seem to keep lingering on.  Just like you I know things can only get better from here on out.  You have to be very proud of yourself for beating kratom and be prepared for things to get a lot better for you in your 3rd month off.  For me kratom withdrawal was a life changer and getting off pain meds pails in comparison as far as ease of withdrawal.  This thread has definitely saved me from serious pain because I actually ordered 8 ounces of kratom while I was on the pain meds, I don't know what I was thinking.  Luckily my wife shipped the unopened box back to the vendor.  I know if I kept it in the house I would have given in because the lingering depression and unbearable-ness of life is what is most difficult for me as well.

Keep up the good work and never go back!  Your sleep should be greatly improving very soon, once I crossed the two month mark my sleep improved dramatically!


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## Serenity Now!

I have been reading the site for a year, and am thankful for these stories. It's good to know that we are not alone.  I've been using for a year, and 30 grams a day (2x15g) for the last 5 months. I started using to stay away from pills and because it was cheaper then pills. It helped my daily pain, depression, and anxiety to a degree. 

    I quit 5 days ago. What helped me quit was getting a bad batch that made me terribly ill. It must have been contaminated because it gave me flu like symptoms right away, 3 times in a row. So I just went cold turkey, tapering is tough for me. I was planning on quitting anyway for my own well being. I've been through Opiate withdraw and this Kratom withdraw is definitely comparable. I think Kratom has an antidepressant quality to it that your withdrawing from as well, making you sad until your brain adjusts. Almost like what I've read about Tramadol. 

   I can man up and deal with the  awful physical part, but things like watching shows or a movie I enjoy, don't even appeal to me without the Kratom right now. That's the hard part, being bored and depressed where I don't even want do anything enjoyable or productive. I already almost ordered more Kratom but the fact that there isn't any quality control and how hard it must be on my body is keeping me away. I thought about using Tramadol as an anti depressant, but the terrible stories and knowledge that it's just trading addictions will keep me away I hope.

   It's a great plant to help people get off harder drugs, but challenging in it's own right to quit if you really enjoy the high. I think it's appalling the medical community hasn't properly studied the benefits it gives, but also the possible risks or side affects it presents. It's like we're all test subjects and all we have is message boards to compare too.

   I hope everyone is doing well and am sure in time we will get back to enjoying all the great things about life.


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## opienigma

Well, I'm wide awake at this hour and experiencing kratom withdrawals for the second time in my life, so I figured I would share what I have learned.  First of all, one of the things I've found interesting about kratom is the fact that it is both a stimulant and a sedative.  From what I've read it is a stimulant ant lower doses and a sedative (or more opiate like) at higher doses.  I had a friend take it in the morning as a pick-me-up, but I've always been a fiend for opiates so I stuck with the higher doses, usually popping 12 caps 2-3 times per day.  IMO, tapering doesn't work well with kratom because it would be like taking a stimulant while withdrawing from opiates.  That would be just plain dumb.  My arms and legs are restless enough without taking a stimulant such as a low dose of kratom.  So, both times I quit cold turkey and both times it sucked.

I honestly think it is worse than WD from hardcore opiates.  I was addicted to IV dilaudid, dosing up to 12mg per shot.  The WD's sucked, curled up fetal position vomiting and shitting.  However, once they went away they were gone, and it only lasted a few days.  With kratom there is a "discontinuation syndrome" that persists after the physical withdrawals are over.  I've often heard that quitting smoking was one of the most difficult things to do, and I never understood that until trying to kick kratom.  The symptoms aren't severe, but they just never....fucking....go...away....I haven't slept in days.

I do think kratom could be taken for extended periods.  I mean, I did.  It was so much better than the AD I was on (paxil, which has it's own WD story).  Kratom blunted any anxiety and depression I had but didn't keep me from being productive.  I felt normal.  I slept great.  Now upon quitting I'm an insomniac worse than I've ever been, can't stop crying, and feel completely awful.  It just doesn't seem to go away.    Loperamide does work to keep the physical symptoms at bay for the most part, though tonight for some reason my usual dose of that didn't help with sleep.  I have heard of people actually getting "addicted" to loperamide, which I would think would be more of a psychological thing.  I don't want to get high.  I'm not looking for the high of kratom or any kind of effect, I just don't want to feel the pain or sleeplessness that I do.  I want to take some kratom to feel normal, but more than anything I don't want to have to take a bunch of pills every day.  So, I guess I'll give my two cents:

Going cold turkey or tapering is probably a psychological call.  I can't taper.  If I have something that makes me feel good I'm going to take enough to make me feel good.  More than that, with kratom there is the physical effect mentioned above that could make tapering problematic.  That is just a theory on my part though.  

Loperamide is a mu-opioid receptor agonist, and as such will help with withdrawals from kratom (and of course kratom is often used to help WD from other, harder opioids, ironically).  I do think that it is impossible to eliminate WD's altogether.  At some point you'll have to "pay the piper" so to speak.

Kratom is probably worse for the psychological discontinuation syndrome than it is for the physical symptoms of WD.  I never found kratom to be any more intoxicating than coffee or nicotine, only it acts in the opposite way.  I used to often tell people that kratom could be like drinking coffee on opposite day.  It would take the edge off, and some days I'd get a little euphoric from it, but it was always very mild.  It certainly doesn't seem like something that would cause so much trouble to quit, but like I said it isn't very severe it just doesn't seem to go away.  The body is good at adapting though, so I just want to stick with it and get away from having to take anything to keep functioning.


----------



## Fresco

@ opienigma

Were you taking kratom leaf powder or kratom extracts??


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## Philipthejay

*Anyone with kratom experience? Coming off kratom?*

I am wondering about tapering off kratom and kratom withdrawal as I just recently started to use kratom. A few years ago I went through some pretty bad withdrawals after a four month long opium habit. That sucked. Well, about a month ago I started messing with opiates again. I took about four 15mg oxycontin pills over about a day and a half and I did this twice, each time about a week apart. Last week I took about five 5mg percocet pills then another two a couple of days later (last Friday). Well I started to go into pretty bad opiate withdrawals last Monday, which I was not prepared for because I thought I had spaced my use out adequately enough, but I guess I build opiate dependence very quickly. I was afraid I was going to have to revisit my experience with opium withdrawal and was not excited. I had heard about kratom for opiate withdrawal and ended up getting 32g of crushed leaf maeng da kratom. Monday night I took 4.8g and it made me feel a ton better. Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday I took 3.2g twice a day and I felt little to no withdrawals from the opiates. Yesterday I took 3.2g in the morning as I had to go to work and then 1.6g at night to get to sleep. Today I felt crappy and anxious in the morning so I took another 1.6g and I plan to only take .8g tonight to sleep. I have a few questions. Should I continue to taper along until I'm below .8g? I have about 6.4g of kratom left. Also, what should I expect from kratom withdrawals from this period of usage and how do I deal with the symptoms? The only drugs that I have that I think could possibly help are Imodium and Klonopin. Any thoughts on what to do next? Should I just man up and nix the Kratom? Thanks a ton!


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## thedood

Kratom is legal in Texas right?


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## tripnotyzm

Hey Philipthejay! Welcome to _Sober Living_. 
I personally have not had any experience with _kratom_, but there are a lot of great resources within these forums holding information on kicking addictions.
Here is a thread with a lot of personal opinions and advice on beating the drug:
Kratom-Addiction-Need-Help-After-Withdrawals-Are-Over


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## Vaya

^Thanks trip for that link.
I'm actually going to merge these two threads since they address essentially the exact same topic!

~ Vaya


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## going_in_circles

Hi all, 

Former Kratom user here .... and I really have to thank podsnomo and ScreamPhoenix - not to mention many others in this thread - for helping me get off of it. And I'm still I started taking it 10 years ago. I only took it on and off so it was never a habit. It became a habit back in 2007 and I boiled and drank tea several times a day along with some extracts from time to time. My wife and I were both doing it for 3 years and quit cold turkey in 2010. RLS for 3 or 4 days ... and all the other mental stuff. I think that we jumped straight to bud then ... so there was no lapse in self medicating. I quit drinking back in `88 after a couple of DUIs so I am no stranger to addictions. But it wasn't until 2012 that I went back to Kratom .... and it was then that I really realized that I am an addict. I was taking nothing but extracts and doing it secretively. Was so locked in and had to have it to function that it was scary. The mental aspect of it was killing me. I was living this life of an impostor.My wife had no idea I was doing it. I spent a good 10k on that crap in 2012. January 1st of 2013 I quit cold turkey from straight extracts and continued to go to work in a very highly technical job. It wasn't easy and I was hurting for a week but stuck to my guns. So then in March I relapsed and got hooked again. This time I only took leaf in tablets as I was terrified of the extracts. I was doing up to 30 grams in a day. I was also hating myself for getting hooked again. I was mostly depressed and medicating with K and weed up until the 1st of Oct. I had a business trip that would take me far away from home and would be the perfect time to break the cycle. I was jonesing bad on a 3.5 hour flight stuck with a window seat. I took my licks over the next 4 days and nights..... but stuck to my guns. I hit my knees in my hotel room and told God that I needed his help and strength to break this. When I got back into town I had some trigger and slipped once and took like 7 grams of leaf. I actually didn't care for how I was feeling. I flushed the rest. It has now been a week clean from it. I know that it will take some time for my mental faculties to come back. But I am determined to beat this thing. The mental aspects of it are the worst for me. My wife actually found out that I had been on it for the past 5 months ... and was pissed and rightfully so. I hope that this thread could get going again ... as I truly care about those of you that are struggling. I have come to grips that I am an addict and really want to get back to that place of serenity. I've been there before ... I remember being happy. As podsnomo once said something to the effect of facing the world head on. That's what I want. 

I love you all


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## ScreamPhoenix

Hi all. I wanted to see how everyone was doing. It seems like this thread dies off then comes back, etc. 

Going In Circles, I think you're gonna be OK. Flushing it was the right thing. I did the same, though I regretted it later when I was in pain. But now I am glad I did.

I am still kratom-free, 91 days. Unfortunately I have had 3 surgeries on abscesses which sucks. I had to take pain meds- first percocet, then norco, then vicodin. Luckily I was only given 3 or 2 day supplies of the meds in the hospital (no insurance), which I stretched out to a week or a little less. It was weird- I hate percocet (I always preferred hydrocodone) but once my supply got low I was kind of sad. Each time I stop the painkillers I go through a mini withdrawal, though not like getting off the kratom. Just watery eyes, sneezing, sweating/chills. I still manage to sleep 6-7 hours at night and work and have happy moments. So it's not that bad. 

It's been hard to stay away from the kratom after stopping pain meds (today is another day 1 for me, whoo hoo). I worked, and didn't have much to do tonight school-wise, and seriously considered going to the kava bar. I could see myself sitting there, chatting with everyone, enjoying the buzz and not feeling the pain from the abscesses. But, I didn't give in. I also thought about ordering some. But I played it out in my mind. Sure, it might be kind of nice temporarily. But what about a month or so from now, when I'm just taking it to not be sick, hating the brain fog, etc? It's just not worth it.

I'm just tired of being an opiate addict. I wish my medical problems would just go away so I could stay off of this stuff. I can never just stop taking any pain med/kratom. I have to take it until it's gone-I like it too much, and I wish I didn't. I was looking up kratom info and apparently there is some sort of alkaloid or something in it then helps boost the immune system. I wonder if the abscesses are coming back with a vengeance because I don't take the kratom anymore. It's probably the addict in me wanting to justify starting up again. I've been taking vitamins C & E which I read help boost the immune system. But my stomachs all jacked up. I also did like 4 rounds of antibiotics which I'm sure didn't help things. One of the antibiotics can cause GI problems which can be deadly, so I really hope that's not it. Probably just being paranoid.

Anyway, sorry I'm all over the place, I just don't have many people to "vent" to about this stuff. Although these times are hard, in general I am pretty happy, and am looking forward to the rest of my life. One day at a time.. We will all get through this. We just have to be strong. Soak with epsom salts, take Benadryl, exercise, watch funny movies, listen to your favorite music that puts you in a good mood. Life is painful AND beautiful. Get out there and live it!


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## Fresco

^^^  Scream, try giving up gluten.  I started eating gluten-free bread 3 weeks ago and all my body-aches have disappeared. Try it, you never know if it'll work for you too.

A book called "Wheat Belly" is also worth a read: http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/


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## going_in_circles

ScreamPhoenix,

Congratulations on hanging strong for 3 months. That is how long I went at the beginning of the year. The K was calling my name .... I cratered and just like it always does, tolerance goes up, the habit is on .... and I took it to function. I felt really anal throughout the day without dosing. I am still going strong. I have a fear of the stuff like never before. I know how easy it is to get locked back in. Then I start hating myself, rinse and repeat. 

I too am just tired of being controlled by a substance. Opiates have always been my DOC ... but thank God I never took anything stronger than pain pills. I've never been able to not finish a script... even though I didn't need to. 

This thread is virtually timeless. As I was going through my Kratom withdrawal, I found this thread. What happened last year in this thread felt current to me as I was coming back to it every chance I could. It provided support to me and still does. I felt like I came to know people here .... and really pulling for them ... and you! I felt sad to see that several appear to be gone, including podsnomo.... and Nancy. 

I hope that you remain strong and take it day to day and stay clean. I also hope that your medical problems go away.

You are loved.


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## podsnomo

Hi all,

Glad to see this thread is still active. I'm kind of afraid to go back and see how long ago it was that I was posting about quitting kratom. I was the guy with the good advice for everyone else who never could quite get it together. A year or two ago I went on a loooong taper down from an insane amount of poppy pods each day. Then, the day I jumped from just one gram of pods/day, I used some kratom. Ahhhh, the relief. Fast forward a few months and I was totally hooked, taking it to not be sick. Riding that roller coaster. 

I had some clean time here and there. A week here, a month there, 2 weeks... Probably 60 days max. Then I got hooked on the kratom daily again. I was buying it from a store. They got in 150g bags for a decent price. A little more costly than online, but much stronger, which I know is not the norm. 

Anyway, I relapsed on everything. I'm an alcoholic too, so when my relapse started I was just getting drunk every night and taking kratom every day. Then one day I get a package. What's this? I had ordered poppy pods while in a blackout. There they were. A whole pound. Now I've reordered twice. Today though, I'm using kratom to get through. I live in KY where they have this new law, KASPER. Well, what it means is that randomly I have to pee in a cup when I go to get refills for my anxiety and sleep meds, which are controlled substances. They test to make sure you're taking what you are prescribed and nothing else. If the doc finds another drug in your system he has to drop you and send you to a drug treatment program. 

So, it'll be 53 hours from my last pods dose when I go to the doc tomorrow. I'm going to do the whole drink a ton of water to dilute/flush, and take a B complex vitamin to color my urine so it's not obvious that I drank a gallon or two of water that day. 

I want to get free for good, but it's been such a long road. And I had some pretty good recovery going a couple times. Right now I'm faced with telling my family everything. My girlfriend decided that we ought not spend any more time together until I tell them. She thinks they can help me. I don't know maybe they can. 

But right now I'm in my mid 30s, working part time, student loan debt is mountainous, stuck back in drinking every night, using opiates, smoking cigs, calling into work sometimes so I can sit at home and escape, watching TV and playing video games. I feel like a totally worthless piece of s%^$. But intellectually I know I'm not. I have a doctorate. I am an excellent teacher and musician. When I'm clean I'm a great boyfriend. Hell, I was great boyfriend for 2 years, one year on pods, and the second on kratom. 

But now it's like I'm at the bottom of the deepest pit ever. I don't know how to get out. I'm hoping and praying something happens. Maybe I need to piss dirty tomorrow and be sent away and locked down and removed from all my addictions. I don't know. This sucks. 

Congrats to those on hear with good clean time! And hang in there for those of us still struggling. I know from experience that even when it seems hopeless, it never really is. 

And one other thing. YOU are not depressed. YOU are not anxious. YOU are not crazy. You are having and EXPERIENCE of depression/anxiety/insanity. The real you remains. 

Love to all,
pods


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## going_in_circles

podsnomo,

Don't beat up yourself man. As you've said frequently - it's part of the journey. You'll get there. The inspiration that you've had on me with your wise words are one of the biggest reasons that I am clean today. Get to the core of what is keeping you self-medicating.... it's the only way out.


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## podsnomo

thank you circles. it feels good to know i have helped someone.


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## G77

You helped me too, Pods. 5 days kratom free. Was afraid I'd lose my job at the hospital on the first few days. CT after 12 g powder (never extracts) daily for at least 3 yrs. 
You've got the insight. It's time for you to care for you now bro.

Even just 5 days in and the light at the end of the tunnel is glorious. 

I am an addict.  Always will be. But I am also 36 yrs young. And I don't want to look back.... I WON'T look back at my life in despair.

I feel I am ready for the long road ahead. I won't tolerate or rationalize any set backs at this point.

My friends deserve more. My family deserves more. I deserve more. And you do too!
You are loved amigo, whether you know it or not, for all you've done for people like me. We ALL want you to succeed.
Best.
-G


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## amanitadine

Pods, how goes it? As one on/off with Kratom for years, as well as AA, I can't help but wonder. You've had some sage advice in this thread.....wishing you the best.


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## podsnomo

Well guys, I'm reviving this old thread I've known and loved for so long, ever since a few days after the OP started it. I know many here are stuck on kratom. I was stuck on poppy pods. Then did a taper, quit, and got addicted to kratom. Then I did a taper, quit and was off and on with kratom for a year or better. 

Last couple months I've been on a fast downward spiral. Started getting drunk here and there. (I'm an alcoholic and an opiate addict and a benzo addict.) Then I got some pods and went up from kratom to pods. Started drinking more and more. Using more and more pods, more and more often. Starting taking my sleep med in the morning with my k-pin so I could be nice and benzoed while I was on the poppy pods. And then I'd drink myself to sleep because I wanted to keep those(prescribed) benzos in supply until refill time. 

Man, I hope this is bottom. I've been more miserable than I thought was possible for a while now. In a few hours, I'm heading in for a 5-7 day medical detox. 

First couple times I "quit" I always held on at least to my prescription. But I can't handle it anymore. 

Right this second I feel pretty good because since I'm giving up all my shit, I went ahead and doubled up on my pod dose and took some extra klonopin. I'm not going to check into detox drunk though. I'm feeling to good to mess it up with vodka, which I would just need to sleep. 

Anyway, don't know how this next week is gonna go. I've never done a CT medical detox before. I know it'll be hellish, but they should have stuff to ease my pain, right?

I'll be checking back in here to see if any of you, my old and new beloved pals, have read this. I'll have access to a computer again in 6,7, maybe 8 days tops. 

I love you all.

Peace
podsnomo (again)


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## muskolo

All the best, podsnomo...


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## ScreamPhoenix

Yes, much love from Scream also! You can do it!

In the beginning of December I took small amount of pain meds for surgery, then on 12/16 I went to the kava bar and got some kratom since I was still in pain. It didn't really do much although it was 15X. I bought 5 grams which I thought I could stretch out over a week and I finished it that very same day. Luckily I have not taken any narcotic pain meds/kratom since. So counting that day it's been almost 2 months since I've had opiate-like substances. Minus that day and minus pain meds for surgery, I've had about 6 months free. Wow. It really doesn't feel that long at all. 

The want is strong though, especially when I am in pain like this. But I am able to talk myself out of it, and in general am glad I have not caved completely. When I am not in physical/emotional pain, I don't even think about it.

I also got the strength to quit smoking, and in about a week I will have 3 months free from that! 

Addiction is such a curious thing. Why do we feel drawn to things that only hurt us in the end? Why do we tell ourselves "just one day" of our favorite substance? Why is the risk worth it? Why, when a craving supposedly only lasts 3 minutes, do we feel like we've been craving what we quit for a week straight non-stop?

These are questions I may never have the answer too. But I do know, despite my cravings, that one day drug free is infinitely better than 100 days of using substances.

Hope you all are well.


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## podsnomo

Oh wow. Sweet JEEBUS!

So, I was looking back, and I started crying with joy when people said I helped them. I love you guys!
And I noticed that when I posted in January I had totally forgotten about my November post. Holy shit. 
I've been really sick a long time. 

I'm clean and sober today. This is day 10.
Here's what happened, I got so bad I locked myself in detox. It was quite an experience...more like jail than I thought it would be. And it was psych patients and chemical dependency, and apparently I am both. Anyhow, my brother and girlfriend arrived on my second morning there. I was so happy to see them I didn't even think about it being a weird thing. It wasn't visiting hours. But I had just woken up and wasn't thinking. And my brother said my name like 6 times. Until he caught my eyes, and he said, "Mom died". 

She wasn't sick or anything. Had a heart attack in her sleep. Gone. She was 68. 

So, I'm still going through detox, kinda, and maybe PAWS is starting to set in. I don't know. 

I'll write more later. For now, I thought you guys should know how much gabapentin is helping with the WDs and cravings and mood and pain and everything almost. If you can get to a doctor, ask for it. It's an amazing medication with  million off-label uses. 

My whole heart to all,
pods


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## ScreamPhoenix

Holy hell PodsNoMo.. All I can say is.. I am so, so, so incredibly sorry for your loss.

PM me


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## Clarity12

I'm sorry to hear about your mom Pods. That really must be hard right when you're trying to deal with this stuff. I feel for you man. I think it was you that said something about life not caring about our personal struggles; life continues to come at you, good and bad, no matter how weak you are or what you're trying to overcome, like an addiction. I can't imagine how hard that must be. I hope you're alright man, you have a wealth of wisdom about recovery that has no doubt benefited me and others. 

 This happens to be my first post on the forum, as I've been lurking this thread for a while now. There is so much support and wisdom on this thread it's amazing. I thought I would keep this thread going. I too am quitting Kratom. I did a cold turkey quit starting 28 Dec 2013, which puts me at 52 days today. This is so new for me. All throughout college up until now, I've always been on something, whether it was one thing or another. I haven't been this consistently sober since before high school. I've gotten drunk probably 5 times since quitting kratom, but the thing about it is every time I get drunk, I tend to get a little too drunk, and then the next few days the Kratom cravings come back. I think this must be why AA and other similar groups emphasize total sobriety. 

I used Kratom recreationally at first, but then I realized over time that I could also study on it, and even study longer with more interest. This led me to study on Kratom, then since I'm studying a lot, this turned int


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## Clarity12

aneverday thing, and soon enough I'm downing 4-6 5 gram doses each day. For awhile it was expensive because when I started I would do 15 g at a time afterwork in the evenings, but I soon realized that less is more, and that smallerdoses work well also. For the first summer I was on it, I would buy stuff atthe head shop and spend tons of money on it. I eventually realized I couldorder online for much cheaper and started getting kilos of leaf powder. Thiswas when it really took off. I went through 2 kg in one semester of school(last semester), and ended up running out before finals. I also ran out ofmoney around this time too. So I didn't have enough to buy quantity, andended up donating plasma at biolife as much as I could to buy head shop stuff.I knew I could get it cheaper online, but the shop is like 4 blocks from myhouse so it was like hmmm do I want kratom now or do I want it in a week? So Iended up broke at the end of the semester. I still paid my bills and stuff andpaid for food and such, but I had no spending money. 


I resolved to quit over winter break, but I had to go through withdrawls. And Ihad to work. These two suck together. I tried to have my last dose the fridaymorning before my last final, went through withdrawls over theweekend, and managed to work the next week just fine, so me thinks I'm ok.WRONG. Got more, spent more, 11 days go by. I ended up saying no thankssir I've had enough. Withdrawls again. 3 days that felt like a month.Another 3 days working that took every ounce of will power I had just to getup in the morning. I kept telling myself, constantly, be strong, bestrong, BE STRONG. Those 6 days felt like a month easily. Then it goteasier, but still kinda sucky. This whole time I was working avery mentally and physically intense job. It got easier by a littleevery day, but only in the past few weeks have I began to feel normal. Neverreally got depressed, it just felt like everything was a drag. 

I started running a few times every week, writing in my journal, sometimesgoing from one activity to the next within 5 minutes just to keep my mindoccupied. The minute something got boring (which was quick), I just didsomething else. I think this helped for the first few weeks. The journal helpstoo, I like to write poems about being strong and overcoming challenges andsuch. I read them to myself in moments of weakness and that seems to help. Ialso like to draw in my notebook. There's this one I have that has a little guywalking up a mountain and along the trail there trail signs for the different(in my mind) stages of recovery, like despair, fear, need, want, change,and finally rebirth. Along the path are little rocks of hope. At the topthere is a sunset and a sort of monument with the word REBIRTH on it. Ilike looking at that one. I've marked different points on the trail with dates.Little stupid stuff like that keeps me sane, along with this forum. I hope Ican share a bit of what has helped me along the way with others here. 


Sorry for the long post, I hope I didn't bore you too much. I just wanted tointroduce myself to some people who understand what it's like and all.  

Peace and Love 

Clarity12


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## podsnomo

Welcome to the thread clarity. I know it's tough. I like your drawing of the mountain with the sign posts. I wonder if you could scan it. If you could, I'd PM you my real emailso I could see it. 

I think I'm relapsing again. I don't want to go back to where I was when it was at worst for sure. I was eating 20-40g of finely powdered poppy pods a day, taking my sleep AND anxiety meds in the morning (1.5mg klonopin, and 30mg temazepam), and I was using the sleep/anxiety meds to get rid of the shakes after drinking well over a pint of vodka everynight. For the last few nights I've 4-6 beers and I started using some kratom again, about 5-7 grams twice a day. Fuck! I often wonder what the fuck is going to happen to me. 

So, yeah, my mom died January 31st, my second morning in detox. The most important woman in my life was gone. 20 days later on the 19th, my gf of nearly 4 years broke up with me. That was when I kind of hit the fuck-it button. The two most important women in my life, gone, within in 20 days. 

I want to quit kratom again and not drink anymore, but life is such shit right now. And I'll wake up with no kratom, having thought the previous day that tomorrow would be the day I'd quit. But no, I wake up, eyes are watering and burning, I have no energy mixed with anxiety, and I drive to the little place and buy another 30g. Every three days that's been the tune. I don't know what's going to happen. I feel like someone else is driving this goddam bus and there's nothing I can do. But I know there IS plenty I can do, like tell my sponsor the whole truth, go to meeting, work the steps, and so forth. But I just feel stuck. I want to quit, but how do you want to want to quit enough to actually do it?

I need some motivation, inspiration, and I don't know what else. 

love to all,
pods


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## thedawn

hi pods,have followed this thread for a while.
detoxes can be quite an experience.
really sorry to hear about your mom.my parents are 70 both roughly and it's their time soon
as well.

i took kratom in mix with so many other opiates.i can't distinguish this many years
later what withdrawal symptoms was specific to the kratom.
but it sounds horrible.

you know whats up,though.
meetings,reaching out,being honest…..

when u have strength I'm sure u will do all those things and get clean from kratom.

the drinking is a separate issue.
you might want to check with doctors re DT's and whatnot.

i am on suboxone.
for me,that drug,buprenorphine,is a godsend.
it works on both my heroin addiction AND depression.

i dont crave street opiates anymore.
i function to a certain degree.

continue posting and reaching out,you can pm me too if u want.

much love.


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## silentcowboy

Sorry to hear all that pods... I hope you can turn back around into sobriety, it sounds like that whats you do want deep down. Maybe an idea would be to pick kratom or alcohol for the moment. Using both, you'll end up being dependant on two substances. 

IMO, id say kratom is the better alternative to take daily and function during times of stress. I wont go into the reasons, but at this point, I know I need kratom to go to work everyday, pay my bills, and somewhat enjoy life. I hate to say that because you do want to be completely clean but kratom does have its medicinal value.


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## going_in_circles

This appears to be a dead thread ... but not anymore.  I posted several months ago regarding my addiction to Kratom. I slipped and then re-lapsed and became full bore using again. I was using up to 45 grams in a day at times. My tolerance went through the roof. No one knew that I was using. It was tearing me up. I just couldn't imagine living life not medicating on something so I continued to self medicate on Kratom.

16 days ago I put it down. I went to the doctor and had her sympathy. She prescribed enough Valium to help me to sleep at night for 5 nights. I was taking a half of one twice a day. I didn't even like it. I've always loved opiates ... not benzos .... just don't like the feeling. Anyhow ... I am living life now completely clean which is the first time in 7 years. For 7 years I took something daily every single day. I am free ... and it feels good. I really hope that you guys on this thread .... and especially podsnomo, can get there. There really is some happiness on the "other side." Best of luck to all and God bless.


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## Mycophile

Well, I'd been considering trying Kratom to ease with depression and anxiety, but I have a very addictive personality.

Now this thread is making me think I might be smart to stay away from Kratom.

Would those of you in this thread who have had Kratom problems recommend a person like me stay away from it if I am not sure I'd be able to moderate?


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## THECATINTHEHAT

Mycophile said:


> Would those of you in this thread who have had Kratom problems recommend a person like me stay away from it if I am not sure I'd be able to moderate?



I think you've answered your own question there.


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## Mycophile

omen_owen mk2 said:


> I think you've answered your own question there.



I guess I probably did but I can't be sure.

Do you have low motivation levels and depression?

And have you ever tried kratom as a medication (not just a high?)

Some would say just to take it as a medication and there'd be no need for moderation but sadly doctors don't prescribe it so it's not considered an "acceptable" thing to do.


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## THECATINTHEHAT

Nah unfortunately I don't have any first hand experience with it, one of the few mainstream substances I haven't put in my body.  I do have depression, although I have recovered a lot of motivation recently and am hungry to improve my life.

I just think that if you're questioning your ability to control using it before even having tried it then you probably know in your heart of hearts whether you will have trouble with it or not.  Maybe it could be a useful substance for you though I don't know.

You might not have issues with it, and I would certainly listen to someone with first hand experience over me if I were you, but I was answering from a purely philisophical point of view.

I guess what I'm really saying is that you should be asking yourself whether it's worth the risk messing with a substance which regularly causes addiction if you are unsure about your own ability to control substances or have had issues in the pass.  I wasn't trying to come off as facetious, hope it didn't come accross that way, I was just trying to be succinct!


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## Clarity12

Hi Guys, It's good to see this thread back online again. I too have had trouble with Kratom. Im currently almost 4 months free of kratom. I was drinking here and there and smoking the ganj but I put that away 3 weeks ago. 

If it was me I would stay away, Myco. I loved the stuff from day 1. I think i started out self medicating for depression and whatnot, but it eventually got out of control and I was spending a shite ton of money on it. It would help me study, but when I realized I needed to kick it, I was faced with some serious motivation issues. I justified taking it on the basis of studying for school. which at the time helped my grades. Most people will tell you its a relatively benign substance as far as drugs go, which makes it easy to justify taking every day. There is a psychological addiction as well as a physical addiction. 

That being said, the stuff just makes you feel really good. Its a perfect functional drug. You can take it, and whatever you have to get done you can do with a sense of well being and just feeling good. Hard to describe. It stops working after a while though,at which point you either upgrade to extracts (stronger, more expensive)  or quit. I chose to quit. 

It pretty niiice though, but now I'm fantasizing a little too much so I digress. Whatever you decide to do, know this stuff is addicting, and makes you feel really good. I would sometimes get a nod with it on the bali strains, whereas the super mang da strains feel very speedy. Whatever your cup of tea is. 

My reccomendation: Tread carefully

Peace,
Clarity


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## Clarity12

By the way, Podsnomo, if you're still tuning in, post something man. How are you doing?


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## kratomfree

Just want to say thank you to all the ppl who posted in here. It saved my life, seriously.

I'm free of kratom now.



btw: I want to leave this song here, for all of you guys, but specially for @podsnomo

[video=youtube_share;t-T8iFmvmmA]http://youtu.be/t-T8iFmvmmA?list=UUn-IoDEPIR8ujknPMLZOyBw[/video]


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## podsnomo

Thanks kratomfree! I love all you guys and miss when this thread used to be popping. All my best to everyone!

Peace and love,
~pnm~


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## socko

Clarity12 said:


> ...Hard to describe. It stops working after a while though,at which point you either upgrade to extracts (stronger, more expensive)  or quit. I chose to quit.
> ...
> My reccomendation: Tread carefully
> 
> Peace,
> Clarity


That never happened to me. Except for a few breaks, I used it every day, 3 times a day (around 5 grams total each day) for a couple of years. But it never stopped working for me. I never had to upgrade and never spent more than $100 per month.   

I love the stuff. It was like daily coffee for me. My favorite combo is a medium dose of kratom and a little bit of heroin. I was always able to quit when i needed to, but WDs were nasty.  I haven't used any for nearly a year, and I'm not sure if I'll take it up again..


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## truthseeker3

Hello all,

I must say I am so impressed with most who have posted on this thread. It is amazing to see the heart and love that is displayed for other when you yourself is hurting. After mainly heavy drinking for about 25 years I got a scare and was told I had cancer. So, not wanting to leave my wife and daughters I immersed myself in ways to naturally heal and detox the body. Two modalities had profound effects for me. First was using bloodroot internally 4 times per day approx. 500 to 750 milligrams per dose. You have to adjust to bloodroot because it can and usually will make you nauseous. I used slippery elm to help with nausea. I also took daily digestive enzymes. All this can be purchased on Amazon. 19 days into taking these 4 times daily I had a healing crisis, I got a fever has as my body was trying to keep up with all the toxins that were being released. I had a fever for 3 days off and on...on the 4th day I felt 20 years younger, truly amazing. Equally amazing is a therapy called near infrared lamp therapy. This therapy has truly saved my life! Near infrared bulbs can be purchased at liveto110.com, they are not expensive. You sit in front of the lights (about 18 inched from you body) and they penetrate up to 1.5 inches into the skin/body and break water and fat soluable metals and toxins from your body. 30 minutes has amazing results, you wont believe how fast you can detox using this method! It seems to remove residual drugs and metabolites and has a great affect on not only removing toxins but also seems to lower tolerance. Trust me those of you who are struggling, daily use of these 2 things mentioned will dramatically change your life. You will purge metals and toxins that have been stored up in your bodies for decades. I hope you will take this seriously and look into it. Much love and hope to all of you!


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## going_in_circles

Hi podsnomo - how are you doing? I too remember when this thread was popping. I was drawing strength from you ... and some from others. We were struggling. It's so true how our perspectives change when we're suffering. I myself am clean. I haven't done any K in 14 months now. It's the hardest thing that I've ever quit. I remember the day that I quit: June 12th, 2014. I was at my bottom. I totally came clean with my wife, I get her my debit card and told her of all the ways that I would sneak to use. It was the only way for me. There are folks that laugh to hear that kratom could really be any concern regarding addition. Anyone out there that wants to challenge me on that - bring it on. When you have to ball up like an embryo with RLS, that's no joke.


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## 2017istheYear

Thank you so much for this thread! I know it has been many years since this was active but the read over the past few days had gotten me through my darkest WD moments. Today is day 4 and I feel the light turning on again. It did help that the sun came out for the time this year. 
I was taking about 20 to 30 grams a day for 6 months. Last year I had dabble for about a month only taking half that amount for a month in November and December and I quit cold turkey. Needless to say after a few dental surgies and pain pills in may I used kratom to curb the opiates withdrawal. I never quit until the first of this year.
I have taken two small 3 ounce doses in the middle of day 2 and 3 but today the RLS is gone and I didn't sweat so no Kratom. 
I am also an AA alcoholic but have been to very few meetings in my Kratom addiction. Time to get back to what works. It is all mental now. 
I have a great life and wife through being sober 100%. It's time together back to that home


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## 2017istheYear

At a meeting and it feels good...I little RLS but nothing crazy... Hopefully people will pick up with this thread and the old timers will come back


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## 2017istheYear

At another meeting. I'm hoping that maybe some old timers who have years of sobriety will come out. Thanks for all the advice and encouragement. I know what I have to do being a recoverd alcoholic. Day 5/ no symptoms anymore but and I had no Kratom yesterday. The Tamiflu might have been the life line. It was not cheap though. Happy trials though. Into the rooms I go


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## 2017istheYear

Another great meeting... Two days and two meetings feels amazing. This thread will come back, I know it!


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## Jabberwocky

It is a good thread 

BTW, welcome to BL! Have you considered starting a new thread for your own recovery journal in SL? It would probably get more traction than this thread (I can move any posts into it of yours you might want included from here). 

Nothing wrong with trying to necro this though. I wouldn't mind seeing that happen either.


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## 2017istheYear

Thanks man. This thread has so much good information and positivity in it. I am hoping some of the older posts come out of the wood work. Reading this the first two days gave me hope. 

Day 6 here and was a little depressed this am but that is normal. I am allowed to feel. There is the key, I am feeling with a clear head. This has now been day three with no Kratom at all. So happy to have it not controlling my every waking hour and thought 

Much love everyone


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## Jabberwocky

Have you through about starting your own thread documenting your experiences? It is helpful to others more than you might even know. No pressure thought, your presence, frankness and positivity is appreciated regardless of where you post.


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## Drink_Tea_Love_Cat

EDIT - for clarity, here's my original reply to this thread, which is also my new *kratom detox diary* post 

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/813619-About-to-do-a-Kratom-Detox-(Recovery-Journal)

I kind of liked that I was replying to this thread. I will reserve this space to link to my detox diary as above, and edit in some relevant comment back here in this space that makes sense. Will reformat and tidy it up as I go, but for now there's the link and this post and the intention.... keep you posted (pun half intended)

to whoever moved my post to make a new thread, I appreciate it, but I also would have liked a copy of my post to stay in this thread. No worries, we/I will figure it out as we go (I'm still pretty new here!), and here's my solution for now


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## razordesignz

Holy crap huge amount of posts for thia haha. So, ya kratom is not a hard drug but yes ofcourse you can w/d. Anything that brings you up a Rollercoaster will also bring you down. Stopping pot can even bring issues. You have been given good advice on the taper process on the first page I saw. Never hesitate on BL. Ya you get some judgemental assholes but you will always get some loving caring people as well just ignore trolls  plus if they troll hard administration will backhand them. Peace


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## Jabberwocky

Drink_Tea_Love_Cat said:


> EDIT - for clarity, here's my original reply to this thread, which is also my new kratom detox diary post
> 
> http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/813619-About-to-do-a-Kratom-Detox-(Recovery-Journal)
> 
> I kind of liked that I was replying to this thread. I will reserve this space to link to my detox diary as above, and edit in some relevant comment back here in this space that makes sense. Will reformat and tidy it up as I go, but for now there's the link and this post and the intention.... keep you posted (pun half intended)
> 
> to whoever moved my post to make a new thread, I appreciate it, but I also would have liked a copy of my post to stay in this thread. No worries, we/I will figure it out as we go (I'm still pretty new here!), and here's my solution for now



Done. Here is your original post I started your own thread from:



Drink_Tea_Love_Cat said:


> Hi guys, just read page one, and then read the post above me, and am compelled to say hi, and some other stuff
> 
> I'm about to do a kratom detox and want to diary/blog my experiences and get some support and feedback while I do it. Get that mutual thing going so we can all learn from it etc... these websites have always been invaluable to me, so it's time I gave something back I guess.
> 
> I first used kratom recreationally and randomly, not really knowing what it was exactly..., but then some years later I started using kratom regularly after I discovered how it improved my mood and gave me some perspective on a week when I was feeling kind of suicidal. I have been suffering from some strange chronic social anxiety and general anxiety and subsequent depression for about 3 or 4 years now. Kratom kind of saved my life. Then I moved to daily use after a very difficult failure in my life - so I was using to cope and come to terms with this setback. It was equally helpful during that time, and in the end I got very productive and got a handle on my anxiety etc for quite a while, but it's been over a year of daily use now and it's time to "take back control"... I also have had a recent bout of depression and unproductivity, so I feel that the kratom has stopped working and served it's purpose, a stage that any mental health medication would get to over time. I noticed a tolerance increase trend. I also started eyeing up stronger opiates, as well as using the kratom extracts and enhanced varieties, some of which have some very strong opiate properties or synthetics in them... I even experienced some withdrawal sickness from those varieties and other opiates, while using normal kratom daily, so I have a glimpse of what the abyss of opiate/opiod addiction and withdrawal feels like.
> 
> So, first off to say hi and thanks for the post - will read through the whole thing gradually I think, 2nd to let you know I will be writing this detox experience up in case you want to read it and share etc, 3rd to ask - where do I write it? (I might just start a post in "homeless threads" section). Hopefully I can share some general insights from my 20 years of drug use alongside the practical details of the detox. Best wishes


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## Drink_Tea_Love_Cat

@TPD thanks

to any readers, I just made a new post in my thread. I intend (hope) to update shortly. I must remember to read all 19 pages of this thread first though!


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## Clarity12

2017istheYear said:


> Another great meeting... Two days and two meetings feels amazing. This thread will come back, I know it!



This thread is awesome. I just randomly thought of this thread today so I google searched it and saw there was some new shit.  Nice. I've got 3 1/2 months this time around.  This is the time.


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## Jabberwocky

Keep up the good work Clarity! Have you create your own recovery journal thread, or thought about it?


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## ScreamPhoenix

So ah.. I know I’m a bit late here, lol, but I just wanted to check in and let everybody know that I am still around & doing well. I wouldn’t say I’m completely off Kratom as I will occasionally use it for physical pain, but I never use it just for some fun or to kill some emotional pain or whatever. In other words, no addictions. I don’t really drink or use anything much, really. 
My life is completely different now. I own my own business. I’m married to a great, sober guy. So the idea of using kratom/ withdrawaling is horrifying to me. It’s just not worth it. But getting better took time. 
I went through a lot of hard stuff, and what helped me, besides just time of course, was yoga, moving my body (even just walking), Weight lifting, etc. Eating healthfully. It’s amazing what one can accomplish when one is sorta sober lol. IDK if anyone will see this, but I just wanted to say heeeeey lol


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## xaddictx

I've been taking Kratom for 3 years and would like to put the brakes on my usage. I take about 3 tablespoons throughout the day. It's not bad but I just want to cut back. Would Black Seed Oil help me with any withdrawal symptoms. I'm having it delivered by mail Saturday. Whats everyones input on this?


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## AutoTripper

Kava has helped some people, and to an outstanding degree many ex alcoholics.

Kava replaced their desired need for Alcohol. But not toxic,and withdraw easing, relabanclinh the brains neurochemistry too which Ithink Kratom dysregulates a bit, and I consider this as one possible way kava can gradually, subtly help, in retesting this more natural brain chemistry patterns and therefore consciousness.

If you ever want any tips bro. Hit me up.
I’ve long heard good things about...shit, Soz, that vanished from me...

520ug LSD trip lots edible and lovely vaporizer.

so maybe...kava IS entirely non physically  addictive so no withdrawals from essentially, inherent toxicity right? Lacking in Kava. But good cannabis helps too.


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## xaddictx

AutoTripper said:


> Kava has helped some people, and Goan outstanding degree many ex alcoholics.
> 
> Kava replaced their desired need for Alcohol. But not toxic,and withdraw easing, relabanclinh the brains neurochemistry too which Ithink Kratom dustegukates a bit, and I consider this as one possible way,Ava can gradually, subtly help, in retesting this more natural brain chemistry patterns and therefore consciousness.
> 
> If you ever want any tips bro. Hit me up.
> I’ve long heard good things about...shit, Soz, that vanished from me...
> 
> 520ug LSD trip lots edible and lovely vaporizer.
> 
> so maybe...kava IS entirely non physically  addictive so no withdrawals from essentially, inherent toxicity right? Lacking in Kava. But good cannabis helps too.


Thanks man! I'll look into Kava also.


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## AutoTripper

And black seed oil, that’s it now damn lol, yes, superb medicinal remedy aeons acclaimed as a powerful medicine. Providing you aren’t allergic like me, Black seed should really feed your body some healing and positive medicine.
My wise mum uses black seed oil, swears by it, even our dogs have Always Benefited tremendously too.

oil Oil of Oregano is life saver for me too.

High quality fish oil, or best cod liver oils too, Evclo best or fermented cod liver oil, or as best you can, can go a long way to helping brain healing, restoration, addictive cravings etc too, proven with alcoholics back in 60’s.


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## xaddictx

AutoTripper said:


> And black seed oil, that’s it now damn lol, yes, superb medicinal remedy aeons acclaimed as a powerful medicine. Providing you aren’t allergic like me, Black seed should really feed your body some healing and positive medicine.
> My wise mum uses black seed oil, swears by it, even our dogs have Always Benefited tremendously too.
> 
> oil Oil of Oregano is life saver for me too.
> 
> High quality fish oil, or best cod liver oils too, Evclo best or fermented cod liver oil, or as best you can, can go a long way to helping brain healing, restoration, addictive cravings etc too, proven with alcoholics back in 60’s.


Ahh yes! That's what I thought. Now I cant wait to try it when it comes.


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