# Gnostic Christianity MEGATHREAD



## Gnostic Bishop

*Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?*

Why is there only one begotten son of God? Is he you?

The God sold by Christianity say that God has no limits, yetGod is limited to only one begotten son. Or is he? 

Is there is only one begotten son of God, Jesus, because youcan only create one?

All sons of God are creations of your own mind, gleaned fromfinding your internal spark of God, as described by Jesus, who states clearlythat God is within you. Within you can only exist one God and thus only one sonof God. That son of God is yourself, should you choose to follow Jesus’ way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLIHeAYm7yE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also didpredestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be thefirstborn among many brethren.

Are you ready to step up?

Regards
DL


----------



## JahSEEuS

Yep.


----------



## Scrofula

First, explain the fuck "begotten" means.



> "All sons of God are creations of your own mind, gleaned fromfinding your internal spark of God, as described by Jesus, who states clearlythat God is within you. Within you can only exist one God and thus only one sonof God. That son of God is yourself, should you choose to follow Jesus’ way."




(Since you posted in a _philosophy forum_, which includes logic and rhetoric, I can do this and not feel bad)  Per sentence:
1) Jesus is a creation of my mind
2) Jesus in my mind described a "spark" that's internal to me, possibly heartburn, but brain-Jesus says its a super-entity creator.
3) How do you know I can't have multiple super-entities living inside me?  Huge chunks of humanity believe it.  And even if there was one, why does that preclude having more sons?  (And poor daughters aren't worth mentioning)
4) So I AM Jesus, but only if I follow myself.

and then 5 to the end) fallacy: arguing from authority something  fancy latin term. 

ETA: forgot, 4 circles around to 1, proving that I am a figment of my own imagination.  And a sick mind I have, apparently.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

JahSEEuS said:


> Yep.



Sweet.

Seek Gnosis and you will be rewarded.








Scrofula said:


> First, explain the fuck "begotten" means.
> 
> Dictionaries are useful.
> 
> beget                    /bɪˈgɛt/                 verb (used with object), begot or (Archaic) begat; begotten or begot; begetting.                     1. (especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
> 2. to cause; produce as an effect: a belief that power begets power.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Jesus is a creation of my mind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All those you can think of are.
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Jesus in my mind described a "spark" that's internal to me, possibly heartburn, but brain-Jesus says its a super-entity creator.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Then your brain is lying to you or we are all super-entities.
> 
> 
> 
> 3) How do you know I can't have multiple super-entities living inside me?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I cannot unless you can prove it to me. I cannot know if you are delusional or telling a truth till you show proof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Huge chunks of humanity believe it.  And even if there was one, why does that preclude having more sons?  (And poor daughters aren't worth mentioning)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Huge chunks of humanity thought and also still think the world flat. Do you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4) So I AM Jesus, but only if I follow myself.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is what Jesus indicates.
> 
> Regards
> DL
Click to expand...


----------



## Scrofula

_I cannot unless you can prove it to me. I cannot know if you are delusional or telling a truth till you show proof.  

_That's kind of the problem with preachers.

And I haven't made a single claim about the underlying reality of our existence, and definitely haven't posited a super-entity that exists beyond time and space, who made a universe over 100 billion light years wide, filled it with nothing, begets sons that are itself, and thinks about me.

The religious have the burden of proof, not me.  

Here's an interesting thought: you know Buddhism has an offshoot, Zen, which kind of strips the supernatural aspects away, mainly by dismissing such things as unknowable and irrelevant.  It's been 2000 years, has Christianity ever had something similar?  I don't think Jefferson and the deists count.  Or Unitarians.

IOW, the "Parables-Only of Yeshua" church, which "worships" a historical Jesus, not as a prophet but a philosopher/martyr.  Leaving out things like Mary being inseminated by a god through her ear, or the Earth's rotation stopping so Paul can have an idea.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Oh my. You make Christianity and the bible sound like pure myth based on what we might see as lies.

I agree and would apply that also to Islam.

Regards
DL


----------



## Phee

There is only one God, we are all one. Help each other.


----------



## zephyr

If God created man originally it doesnt really matter that he created Jesus as hes just another human at that point.

I think I might look into Judaism.  The more I think about Jesus the less sense he makes.


----------



## Phee

Jesus is the greatest connection to man, the greatest covenant to date between God and man. It's a direct relationship with God.


----------



## JahSEEuS

can't I just have my direct relationship with the universe as is?


----------



## RDP89

Phee said:


> Jesus is the greatest connection to man, the greatest covenant to date between God and man. It's a direct relationship with God.



Bullshit! If there was a god, it wouldn't have to impregnate some chick to have a connection with the people it created, that's a stupid fucking idea.


----------



## Phee

If you want to take things literally.


----------



## Scrofula

Impregnate THROUGH HER EAR, because the usual route, the one it "designed," is just too icky.


----------



## Phee

Literal interpretation gets us into a lot of trouble.


----------



## Yourbaker

Phee said:


> There is only one God, we are all one. Help each other.



This is really everything important about religion in one sentence. The rest is just to argue about.


----------



## Scrofula

Originally Posted by *Phee* 


_There is only one God, we are all one. Help each other._


Yourbaker said:


> This is really everything important about religion in one sentence. The rest is just to argue about.




Two sentences actually.  And really, it's two unsupported claims in what should be two sentences, followed by an imperative.  OK, three separate paragraphs, as none has any relation to the other.  

I mean, more than a billion human beings outright disagree with the first idea, so at least a bit of support would be nice.  Saying "we are one" is kind of meaningless, because, one what?  Why does the number of deities effect the number of "whats" we are?  And shouldn't you just help each other regardless of the presence or absence of trans-dimensional super-creatures?


----------



## swilow

^I like your blasphemous turn of phrase Scrofula 

I love the monotheism of Christianity. Who was looking after heaven when Jesus was down here human-being-ing it up? You're not allowed to say the angels.


----------



## Phee

In the original aramaic, it's perfect. ;

I think the point is that we can get stuck when we focus on language, which has its limitations. We sure have plenty of examples of what happens when we hold the word as paramount to everything else. I have no idea what it's all about any more than anyone else, but it seems as if this means something. And helping others seems to be where a lot of answers are.


----------



## Scrofula

@Phee, Phreed to Phrase not literally, when you say ". . . seems as if this means something," what does "this" refer to?  The forum?  Gnostic Bishop?  Shit-head trolls making fun of religious people in the philosophy section?  An ethereal borborygmous of cosmic unity, before the flatus?  That's not making fun of you, I honestly don't know.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Phee said:


> There is only one God, we are all one. Help each other.



I am not you and you are not me. We can be one in purpose though and that is what Jesus seeks as brethren.



zephyr said:


> If God created man originally it doesnt really matter that he created Jesus as hes just another human at that point.
> 
> I think I might look into Judaism.  The more I think about Jesus the less sense he makes.



If you are to do so, please look at Karaite Jewry as they are not idol worshipers the way most other Jewish sects who are not atheists are.

Give any God a name other than I am, and mean yourself, and you become an idol worshiper. 

My best recommendation though is Gnostic Christianity. It forbids idol worship and, like Jesus, tells us to seek God perpetually and to always up-grade our standards when we think we have found the ideal God. 



Phee said:


> Jesus is the greatest connection to man, the greatest covenant to date between God and man. It's a direct relationship with God.



That cannot be true if you analyse the moral tenants the Roman created Jesus follows. Especially immoral and unjust are his no-divorce and substitutionary atonement laws.

Care to argue for the morality of those?



RDP89 said:


> Bullshit! If there was a god, it wouldn't have to impregnate some chick to have a connection with the people it created, that's a stupid fucking idea.



I agree, as it has God coveting another man's wife, cuckolding Joseph and becoming a deadbeat dad who places his responsibility onto a man as God abandons his son.

Given that 50% of the household in the U.S. are manned by single women, it seems tha many American Christians like to follow that deadbeat attitude.



Phee said:


> If you want to take things literally.



??

Do you not read your bible literally to some extent? 

You have to to end in believing in a literal Jesus. Right?



Phee said:


> Literal interpretation gets us into a lot of trouble.



For sure. Like loving a genocidal son murdering God.



Scrofula said:


> Originally Posted by *Phee*
> 
> 
> _There is only one God, we are all one. Help each other._
> 
> 
> 
> Two sentences actually.  And really, it's two unsupported claims in what should be two sentences, followed by an imperative.  OK, three separate paragraphs, as none has any relation to the other.
> 
> I mean, more than a billion human beings outright disagree with the first idea, so at least a bit of support would be nice.  Saying "we are one" is kind of meaningless, because, one what?  Why does the number of deities effect the number of "whats" we are?  And shouldn't you just help each other regardless of the presence or absence of trans-dimensional super-creatures?



In terms of law of the land, we are helping each other by ignoring the Gods and their barbaric and unjust policies.

Islam might be an exception as they have institutionalized slavery in their religion. Slavery of women that is.



Phee said:


> In the original aramaic, it's perfect. ;
> 
> I think the point is that we can get stuck when we focus on language, which has its limitations. We sure have plenty of examples of what happens when we hold the word as paramount to everything else. I have no idea what it's all about any more than anyone else, but it seems as if this means something. And helping others seems to be where a lot of answers are.



Indeed.

Gnostic Christians begin by trying to understand what our version of Jesus meant with this.

GnosticChristian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is inthe sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. 
If they sayto you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. 
Rather, theKingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. 
[Those who]become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] becomeacquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are thesons of the living Father. 
But if youwill not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are thatpoverty."
A lot of people do not want to think that way due to evil, but they forget that Satan was born in heaven.

Regards
DL


----------



## Scrofula

OK, @Mr. Gnostic Bishop (assuming, even the gnostics forbid women in the clergy?), I'll bite.

I thought gnosticism was the belief in a hidden truth or reality that could be revealed.  The Matrix, basically.  

You're a Christian, you claim, but you have some nasty things to say about the Christian God of the Old Testament, and the ideas of Jesus, even if they really were written by Paul in Rome.

Your excerpts seem to urge people to do some kind of inward-looking woo-woo to find a god, although you demand they call it El or it's idol worship, BUT we should ignore the "Gods and their unjust policies" except for Islam's "institutionalization of slavery" for women, which, well I guess that could be . . . no I'm not following.  You're going to say something like there is NO trans-dimensional super-entity and some ethereal new-age connection is all internal, but then how do you care at all about some street preacher named Yeshua?

I bet you have a blog though?


----------



## Nixiam

Hehe, the idea that it isn't a large jump of the ego to pretend I am the begotten son of the invisible man gets me feeling proud... albeit underachieved.



swilow said:


> ^I like your blasphemous turn of phrase Scrofula
> 
> I love the monotheism of Christianity. Who was looking after heaven when Jesus was down here human-being-ing it up? You're not allowed to say the angels.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Scrofula said:


> OK, @Mr. Gnostic Bishop (assuming, even the gnostics forbid women in the clergy?), I'll bite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not know where you heard that but it is a lie. We have tied full equality of all souls to righteousness and anyone can preach in the Gnostic Christian church that feels moved to do so.
> 
> http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I thought gnosticism was the belief in a hidden truth or reality that could be revealed.  The Matrix, basically.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That is how our myths have been viewed by some but remember that that myth was written to put against the Christian myth before Christianity became an idol worshiping cult and started killing in the name of their prick of a God. Demiurge that is.
> 
> As to our secret or hidden truth, and how we read the more Gnostic Christ, please listen to this link as it speaks of the not so hidden truth which is that we believe in the power of the individual and how disrespect for anti-freedom traditions is about the only secret we have. It made our controllers, political and religious, hate us enough to try to annihilate us. They and the Inquisitions ended freedom of religion and though for centuries and helped usher in the Dark Ages of freedom of thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You're a Christian, you claim, but you have some nasty things to say about the Christian God of the Old Testament, and the ideas of Jesus, even if they really were written by Paul in Rome.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am not a Christian so please do not insult my morality again unless you have a specific beef. But yes, I have no respect for the genocidal son murdering God or his chimera half breed son. Now if you were talking about the more Gnostic Jesus that I see in scriptures, I do respect that Jesus. He frees people from religion. He does not try to enslave us to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your excerpts seem to urge people to do some kind of inward-looking woo-woo to find a god, although you demand they call it El or it's idol worship, BUT we should ignore the "Gods and their unjust policies" except for Islam's "institutionalization of slavery" for women, which, well I guess that could be . . . no I'm not following.  You're going to say something like there is NO trans-dimensional super-entity and some ethereal new-age connection is all internal, but then how do you care at all about some street preacher named Yeshua?
> 
> I bet you have a blog though?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do not bother with one but unfortunately I have to ignore your last as it is not coherent enough for me to dither out what you are trying and failing to say.
> 
> Please try again without smoking or drinking beforehand.
> 
> I will give you this on what you see as woo.
> 
> If you do not respect the words of famed psychoanalyst Carl Yung, you may as well ignore it.
> 
> https://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/12/330510.html?c=on
> 
> Regards
> DL
Click to expand...


----------



## Scrofula

> We can be one in purpose though and that is what Jesus seeks as brethren.



My apologies, Mr. Bishop, lines like this make me think you're a follower of Jesus, which typically means you believe he's the Christ, and are a Christian, along with your very Christ-centric points and dismissal of Islam and Judaism.  

When you say, "the genocidal son murdering God," [_sic_] I honestly thought you meant Abraham and were just taking a jab at Judaism.

But  ". . . Jesus. He frees people from religion. He does not try to enslave us to it," is certainly open for debate.  Jesus may have said gentiles can avoid the law, but he didn't really let his own people off the hook when it came to cultic practice.  Jesus is only third-hand quoted declaring "all foods clean."

". . . (U)nfortunately I have to ignore your last as it is not coherent enough for me to dither out what you are trying and failing to say."
You should have tried a little harder--every clause is just a restatement of a point you've made.  It's like a matching game!  Also: imitation is flattery.

"Please try again without smoking or drinking beforehand."  I'll give you a pass on that one, given the neighborhood, and pretend you're sincere.

In the meantime, it'll take a bit to peruse your gnostic library.


----------



## Scrofula

dreamflyer said:


> there _is _a God/Creator/Whatever capable of revealing himself in human form... who's to say that it didn't happen in other parts of the world?



Well, gods did reveal themselves, sometimes as goats to screw your wife even.  I think the Hindu gods have like twenty different human forms each.  But then the Eastern traditions have a lot more eternal cycles of nature, with the ghost of your grandpa giving the occasional advice, not a linear beginning and end or gods per se.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

dreamflyer said:


> I always speculate that, let's say there _is _a God/Creator/Whatever capable of revealing himself in human form... who's to say that it didn't happen in other parts of the world?
> 
> It blows my mind that so many religions share similarities, in all parts of the globe throughout history.



Human psychology is the same everywhere so it is hardly surprising that there would be uniformity of human thinking everywhere in the world.

Any God who decided to show up would know that people, over time and without living witnesses, would begin to disbelieve. He would know to leave a sign and no sigh is here.

Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.

That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.

Jesus asked, have ye forgotten that ye are Gods? 


Most have. I have not.  



Scrofula said:


> M
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> y apologies, Mr. Bishop, lines like this make me think you're a follower of Jesus, which typically means you believe he's the Christ, and are a Christian, along with your very Christ-centric points and dismissal of Islam and Judaism.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do follow the esoteric teachings of Jesus and he is the Christ. I believe that Gnostic Christians used to call themselves Chrestians as we predated Christianity which store our name as well as some of our scriptures.
> 
> Christians then polluted the original thinking on Jesus and Christ with their literalist idiocy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you say, "the genocidal son murdering God," [_sic_] I honestly thought you meant Abraham and were just taking a jab at Judaism.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> No. Abraham, Jewry's patriarch, was never considered to be a God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But  ". . .
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus. He frees people from religion. He does not try to enslave us to it," is certainly open for debate.  Jesus may have said gentiles can avoid the law, but he didn't really let his own people off the hook when it came to cultic practice.  Jesus is only third-hand quoted declaring "all foods clean."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you think it open to debate, make your argument against the two links of the O.P. and lets have a go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ". . . (U)nfortunately I have to ignore your last as it is not coherent enough for me to dither out what you are trying and failing to say."
> You should have tried a little harder--every clause is just a restatement of a point you've made.  It's like a matching game!  Also: imitation is flattery.
> 
> "Please try again without smoking or drinking beforehand."  I'll give you a pass on that one, given the neighborhood, and pretend you're sincere.
> 
> In the meantime, it'll take a bit to peruse your gnostic library.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I am sure that to you, it was all coherent, but I did not want to make a bunch of guesses as to what you meant and perhaps insult you with my speculations as to what you meant.

I appreciate you taking the time and hope I can help if you have any questions. Gnosticism is not the easiest ideology to understand as it is populated by esoteric ecumenists and the more modern views are not always what the older vies were. Our religion evolves over time which is one of it's greatest assets. It does not need or desired to stay mired in the ancient past, even as we embrace some of the thinking of that past.

Regards
DL


----------



## Scrofula

> Human psychology is the same everywhere so it is hardly surprising that there would be uniformity of human thinking everywhere in the world.



This is usually used as an argument FOR religion, even if Mr. Bishop is using it against, but regardless of how it's used, it's not true.

Cognitive aspects of humans are the same everywhere, but their psychology varies with their language and culture, and there is definitely NOT a uniformity of human thought everywhere in the world, I mean, just go to the current events forum, or this thread.

You only have to compare linear western time to cyclical eastern time to see there's a different approach to the "meaning" of life and the nature of a "spirit".  There are more belief systems in this world than the God of the Desert.  In fact, Mr. Bishop's predecessors are probably a good example of the diversity that existed even within the region before being consumed by monotheism, and their scrolls buried in the sand.


But back to the rest, what are we arguing about?  I like making fun of Christian logic in appropriate places, but you're not a "Christian," instead a "Gnostic" Christian, qualifier essential or you'll be offended.  Although I just don't get how you can hold Jesus as Christ without also accepting Baal/El/Yahweh/Allah/G-D, an afterlife, linear time, an immortal soul, and Israeli history as portrayed in the Old Testament (ie., ridiculously exaggerated when not just made up).  I mean, you say "THE Christ" not "a christ" so it's not like your playing with semantics of "anointed" (John Ashcroft was also "anointed" with oil when he took office [shudder]).  If god and religion are personal, who anointed Jesus?

What does he redeem us from without original sin?  What does he save us from without heaven?  How do you have a heaven without a god?


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

No. I have a heaven with a God.

GnosticChristian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is inthe sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. 
If they sayto you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. 
Rather, theKingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. 
[Those who]become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] becomeacquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are thesons of the living Father. 
But if youwill not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are thatpoverty."

As to your questions of Jesus and my use of him, Jesus is just an archetypal good man. That is why I can take some of the writings of the bible and use them as they should be used and not as the lying church has.

Regards 
DL


----------



## Noodle

Immah go with:






link: https://www.livescience.com/39349-akhenaten.html


----------



## Scrofula

Where did the binary star system go?

It's well known that the true gods came from space, and began civilization by installing Akhenaten as Pharaoh.  He restored their polytheistic religion to its proper worship of the "sun", ie., the enormous ship in orbit.  The fall of man and abandonment by our alien masters occurred when Akhenaten was killed, and his son "king Tut" ascended. An unfortunately unfinished hybridization of man and alien, he was deformed and sick, and the people returned to their silly worship of animals and shit.  http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/02/100216-king-tut-malaria-bones-inbred-tutankhamun/

Sure, ask for reliable sources, they're all coy about the implications, look at the Guardian bend over backward to say his "dagger" was formed from a "meteorite", rather than admit it's not of the Earth: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/01/dagger-king-tut-tomb-iron-meteorite-egypt-mummy



(OK, but seriously, the weird shift in religion and iconography, and later effacement IS pretty interesting.)


----------



## Scrofula

Gnostic Bishop said:


> No. I have a heaven with a God.
> 
> As to your questions of Jesus and my use of him, Jesus is just an archetypal good man. That is why I can take some of the writings of the bible and use them as they should be used.



Very odd.  To me, believing in an afterlife, and a One True God, accepting Jesus as a prophet but NOT the son of a god, makes you Muslim.  Taking Jesus as just a "good guy" archetype makes you Jewish.  Hard to see how you can be a "Christian" without the whole John 3:16 bit.  

But then you reject a lot of the Old Testament and Jewish law, relying probably on Mark 7:19 to pretend Christians can eat pork (they shouldn't).

So really, you're an American.
So am I!
I just reject all of it, which is also pretty American.


----------



## zephyr

> If you are to do so, please look at Karaite Jewry as they are not idol worshipers the way most other Jewish sects who are not atheists are.
> 
> Give any God a name other than I am, and mean yourself, and you become an idol worshiper.
> 
> My best recommendation though is Gnostic Christianity. It forbids idol worship and, like Jesus, tells us to seek God perpetually and to always up-grade our standards when we think we have found the ideal God



Would you say you are a good example of a Gnostic Christian as Ive never heard of it.  

You have a lot of wuestions about Jesus and what he was all about.  Why havent you come up with your answers within your faith and explained your conclusions instead of asking what we think?


----------



## Scrofula

Nah, they're _leading_ questions.  He's trying to bring us in.

Be careful, that's how spiders and used car salesman work.


----------



## Noodle

I didn't want to go with the binary star idea.

I forgot that was visible for a short time.


----------



## Scrofula

Seems not everybody gets email notifications.

Took me a while to realize, you get a copy of the first post in a thread you watch, then nothing until you go to the thread.  But that means you see pre-edited or even deleted posts (preserved in your email). 

I tried to send a PM to cduggles that way, but she had notifications off.

Anyway, depends on the system: if you orbit one or both stars.  

But I bet, yeah, you just get the bright sun god and the dim one is either the Devil or Women, just like our Moon.


----------



## vortech

zephyr said:


> Would you say you are a good example of a Gnostic Christian as Ive never heard of it.
> 
> You have a lot of wuestions about Jesus and what he was all about.  Why havent you come up with your answers within your faith and explained your conclusions instead of asking what we think?



Gnostics by principle are always seeking greater truth, greater knowledge, greater insight. Our truth evolves with wisdom gleaned by our inquiries. We don't settle with dead texts.


----------



## Scrofula

I hate it when my texts aren't dead.  
All that whimpering and snarling.  Some of them still have strength to bite.

Put them down already!!
They're suffering!


----------



## cduggles

Umm... can we discuss my box elsewhere? Really. *fanning and drinking mint julep*
Pardon.


----------



## Scrofula

Strange coincidence . . . that cdug request was from the PREVIOUS one (not today's).

We just may need to have a talk about your box after all.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Scrofula said:


> Very odd.  To me, believing in an afterlife, and a One True God, accepting Jesus as a prophet but NOT the son of a god, makes you Muslim.  Taking Jesus as just a "good guy" archetype makes you Jewish.  Hard to see how you can be a "Christian" without the whole John 3:16 bit.
> 
> But then you reject a lot of the Old Testament and Jewish law, relying probably on Mark 7:19 to pretend Christians can eat pork (they shouldn't).
> 
> So really, you're an American.
> So am I!
> I just reject all of it, which is also pretty American.



Where did I say I believed in an afterlife and one true god?
Please get the quote as I think your reading retention is off the mark. 

As to Jesus being the son of God, do you really think God would covet another man's woman, cuckold Joseph and then become a deadbeat dad by taking off, just to create a chimera half breed God whose rules and laws most people ignore?

I see you are not a believer but that nonsense is what they would have to believe.

I note you wish to call me Christian. Please don't as I have decent morals and not their satanic morals that go along with their genocidal son murdering God.




zephyr said:


> W
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ould you say you are a good example of a Gnostic Christian as Ive never heard of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No. I think I exemplify what they are and thought but personality wise, I have a long way to go and am likely too old to change. We are to fight for our religion and against those we feel are immoral and I am too, in your face, to be the best representative of Gnostic Christianity.
> 
> 
> 
> You have a lot of wuestions about Jesus and what he was all about.  Why havent you come up with your answers within your faith and explained your conclusions instead of asking what we think?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



I do as the opportunity arises. Like right here.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.






Regards
DL


----------



## Scrofula

Gnostic Bishop said:
			
		

> Where did I say I believed in an afterlife and one true god?
> Please get the quote as I think your reading retention is off the mark.




I've already quoted you twice with it:



Gnostic Bishop said:


> No. I have a heaven with a God.



Please understand I'd never encountered your particular theology before when I came to dump on your logic.

I'm sure by now you've met people confused by the scandal of calling you a Christian, you who follows Jesus, believes in a god in a heaven, and frequently quotes the New Testament, then denies its foundations.

It's not a terrible way to start the conversation here, but you can probably drop the feigned hurt.

Meanwhile, your religion has even less of a foundation than orthodox Christians.  Do you amend your NT citations as new scholarship comes out debating the degree of Roman influence on different epistles?  Where's the cutoff from early Paul to late Paul (and all the fake Pauls)?

I ask because when you start cherry picking like that to create a religion, ask why not just drop the religion aspect.  You can have a spiritual believe, and quote from both the NT and the Bhagavad Gita if you want.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Scrofula said:


> I've already quoted you twice with it:
> 
> 
> 
> Please understand I'd never encountered your particular theology before when I came to dump on your logic.
> 
> I'm sure by now you've met people confused by the scandal of calling you a Christian, you who follows Jesus, believes in a god in a heaven, and frequently quotes the New Testament, then denies its foundations.
> 
> It's not a terrible way to start the conversation here, but you can probably drop the feigned hurt.
> 
> Meanwhile, your religion has even less of a foundation than orthodox Christians.  Do you amend your NT citations as new scholarship comes out debating the degree of Roman influence on different epistles?  Where's the cutoff from early Paul to late Paul (and all the fake Pauls)?
> 
> I ask because when you start cherry picking like that to create a religion, ask why not just drop the religion aspect.  You can have a spiritual believe, and quote from both the NT and the Bhagavad Gita if you want.



You did not quote me because you could not.

I do not drop the religious aspect as I see the benefits that community churches brings to people in the sense of assuaging their tribal natures as I see religions as tribal groups.

Here is an example of that.






Regards
DL


----------



## Jabberwocky

If we are individuals are gods, or our own God or whatnot, how does that set us in relation to the environment, the material world, etc? 

I could easily see something like this as ending up at the same kind of place we're at today regarding the kind of relationship societies have with their environments (that they're at our disposal, to be acted upon, etc., products of a hype-mechanistic worldview).


----------



## Scrofula

"I do not drop the religious aspect as I see the benefits that community churches brings to people in the sense of assuaging their tribal natures as I see religions as tribal groups."

Do you have a community church for your odd brand?  What do the nearby churches think.


"You did not quote me because you could not."


Alright, whatever you say chief.  Enjoy your god in a heaven that I quoted three times now.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

toothpastedog said:


> If we are individuals are gods, or our own God or whatnot, how does that set us in relation to the environment, the material world, etc?
> 
> I could easily see something like this as ending up at the same kind of place we're at today regarding the kind of relationship societies have with their environments (that they're at our disposal, to be acted upon, etc., products of a hype-mechanistic worldview).



I do not see it that way.

Let me give you this Gnostic Christian quote.

GnosticChristian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is inthe sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. 
If they sayto you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. 
Rather, theKingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. 
[Those who]become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] becomeacquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are thesons of the living Father. 
But if youwill not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are thatpoverty."
As you can see from that quote, if we see God'skingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world isanything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. 

toothpastedog

If you see yourself in control of all you have no need to lord over things. People generally do not harm what they think they own and respect. People tend to cooperate with nature and respect it when they see it as part of the perfection of all things.
You might recal that the more earth respecting tribes always thank their God and the God of the animal they kill. 



Scrofula said:


> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not drop the religious aspect as I see the benefits that community churches brings to people in the sense of assuaging their tribal natures as I see religions as tribal groups."
> 
> Do you have a community church for your odd brand?  What do the nearby churches think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not, and the way religions are shrinking in the West, I likely never will unless one of these opens nearby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That, to me is the only worthy church as it has a preacher that tells the truth as compared to all the Christian and Muslim one who lie on a constant basis to their gullible sheeple.
> 
> 
> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You did not quote me because you could not."
> 
> 
> Alright, whatever you say chief.  Enjoy your god in a heaven that I quoted three times now.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I tend not to ask for what is already given.

Regards
DL


----------



## Jabberwocky

Gnostic Bishop said:


> I do not see it that way.
> 
> Let me give you this Gnostic Christian quote.
> 
> GnosticChristian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is inthe sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
> If they sayto you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
> Rather, theKingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
> [Those who]become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] becomeacquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are thesons of the living Father.
> But if youwill not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are thatpoverty."
> As you can see from that quote, if we see God'skingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world isanything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty.
> 
> toothpastedog
> 
> If you see yourself in control of all you have no need to lord over things. People generally do not harm what they think they own and respect. People tend to cooperate with nature and respect it when they see it as part of the perfection of all things.
> You might recal that the more earth respecting tribes always thank their God and the God of the animal they kill.
> 
> 
> 
> I tend not to ask for what is already given.
> 
> Regards
> DL



People have and continue to practice slavery though, where other people are owned as chattel. The very practice of slavery is founded on violence of various forms. The idea of ownership vis a vis the environment is problematic, part of what I was alluding to earlier. 

That said, perhaps you are familiar with the concept of stewardship? Could that fit into your metaphysical schema?

On an unrelated note, I have a question: Clearly you have been around BL for some time now. Why did you join, and what keeps you attracted to the community?


----------



## psy997

GB is trying to say that he sees himself as one with all that lays before him, all that he perceives. Which, in addition to the knowing of his own personal sovereignty and thus full control of his being, leads to his statement of being in control of all that he sees. Yet, in seeing all as one as well as existing in self-love, there is then no need to control and in fact the opposite.

The both of you talk past him and mince his words. He's not explaining himself the way I would to y'all's questioning but still.


----------



## vortech

There is something paradoxical, or perhaps Zen Buddhist to this. I concluded in my teens that God is a paradox. It helped me accept the nature of inquiries that were logically impossible yet for all intents and purposes very much reality.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

toothpastedog said:


> People have and continue to practice slavery though, where other people are owned as chattel. The very practice of slavery is founded on violence of various forms.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you include religions in your use of violence, I agree. Both Christianity and Islam are basically slave owning ideologies as both preach being slaved to their Gods. That would apply to the men who pass on that slave owning to women whom they slave to themselves.
> 
> Christianity has gotten partially civilized but Islam are still selling their female children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The idea of ownership vis a vis the environment is problematic, part of what I was alluding to earlier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That ownership only applies to those who can enforce their ownership with force. Note how our native populations did not have the force required to prevent the settlers force and how we put them in ghettos we call reservations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That said, perhaps you are familiar with the concept of stewardship? Could that fit into your metaphysical schema?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Certainly. I practice that wherever I go as I temporarily take passion of wherever I am. So do you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On an unrelated note, I have a question: Clearly you have been around BL for some time now. Why did you join, and what keeps you attracted to the community?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I joined to learn something new, as that is one of the greatest pleasures of life, teach so as to give others that great pleasure, I gain little from that except the [pleasure of doing my duty to others, and preach should someone get interested in seeking the only God they can ever know inside of themselves. I also seek good mind to reduce my disgust of knowing just how many fools are about.



psy997 said:


> GB is trying to say that he sees himself as one with all that lays before him, all that he perceives. Which, in addition to the knowing of his own personal sovereignty and thus full control of his being, leads to his statement of being in control of all that he sees. Yet, in seeing all as one as well as existing in self-love, there is then no need to control and in fact the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. I have a hard time in speaking of my own feelings but you have got me pegged.
> 
> I thank you.
> 
> Seems that you are one of the good minds I like to find. My kingdom for such eloquence. You should be a Gnostic Christian my friend. I feel like an Aaron to your Moses.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The both of you talk past him and mince his words. He's not explaining himself the way I would to y'all's questioning but still.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


I knew from day one that I would have a hard time, thanks to me being a poorly educated Frenchman, in expressing my deeper thoughts so I tend to have learned to live with lack of eloquence and grammatical skills.

I even looked to pay for a proof writer for a time but could not find one. As compared to when I started, what you see now is poor, yes, but 500% better than what I began with.

Regards


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

vortech said:


> There is something paradoxical, or perhaps Zen Buddhist to this. I concluded in my teens that God is a paradox. It helped me accept the nature of inquiries that were logically impossible yet for all intents and purposes very much reality.



Do you consider yourself a paradox, remembering that Yin and Yang are not opposites but complimentary to each other?

If you are logically impossible, then all other life must be as well. No?

Regards
DL


----------



## Jabberwocky

Considering that the vast majority of Islamic communities abhor slavery, I found this bit of Islamophobia rather disgusting (it really does you no credit and detracts from the wiser stuff you have to say):


Gnostic Bishop said:


> Christianity has gotten partially civilized but Islam are still selling their female children.



BUT other than that you're alright with me bishop. You have a very different way of speaking about thing, a way I think is very easily misunderstood given the way most people normally talk about religion or spiritual subjects, but I like a lot of your ideas and we certainly have a lot in common.



psy997 said:


> GB is trying to say that he sees himself as one with all that lays before him, all that he perceives. Which, in addition to the knowing of his own personal sovereignty and thus full control of his being, leads to his statement of being in control of all that he sees. Yet, in seeing all as one as well as existing in self-love, there is then no need to control and in fact the opposite.
> 
> The both of you talk past him and mince his words. He's not explaining himself the way I would to y'all's questioning but still.



I'm not sure I understand this.


----------



## psy997

I'm not sure how to write it any more simply.

Also, to claim GB Islamophobic because of his truthful statement of Muslims still selling, and basically objectifying, women openly is ludicrous. Do you then counter claim that Islam is of no fault? If not, are you then Islamaphobic? Come on.


----------



## swilow

Its not like Christians are known for treating women well.


----------



## psy997

Sure but gnosticism is a whole lot different than any creed of Christianity peddling the degradation of women.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

toothpastedog said:


> Considering that the vast majority of Islamic communities abhor slavery, I found this bit of Islamophobia rather disgusting (it really does you no credit and detracts from the wiser stuff you have to say):
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pSPvnFDDQHk
> 
> Check the stats of how many believe that women can and should be beaten when their owner man feels it required. Just for one of the dehumanizing things done to slaves.
> 
> 
> 
> BUT other than that you're alright with me bishop. You have a very different way of speaking about thing, a way I think is very easily misunderstood given the way most people normally talk about religion or spiritual subjects, but I like a lot of your ideas and we certainly have a lot in common.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Consider that the way most people normally talk about religion is with respect for homophobic and misogynous Gods of war and genocide.
> 
> I speak from a moral perspective while they speak from the ass of their God, where their heads are shoved.
Click to expand...




psy997 said:


> I'm not sure how to write it any more simply.
> 
> Also, to claim GB Islamophobic because of his truthful statement of Muslims still selling, and basically objectifying, women openly is ludicrous. Do you then counter claim that Islam is of no fault? If not, are you then Islamaphobic? Come on.



Thanks for this.



swilow said:


> Its not like Christians are known for treating women well.



Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed intointolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grownthemselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoralways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works anddeeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as hispeople, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudlycontinuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

psy997 said:


> Sure but gnosticism is a whole lot different than any creed of Christianity peddling the degradation of women.



We have tied equality to righteousness and as a Universalist creed, we cannot discriminate without a just cause which is what the homophobic and misogynous religions do.

I have to give women and gays equality and as a man, I feel it is my duty to society, and especially family to place women and children above me. Equality plus, so to speak. This makes it the duty of women and children to accept the elevation that I would push them to.

Think of it as the law of the sea applied to land. 
In that sense, saying I believe in equality is not the real truth, as I place myself below women and children.

Regards
DL


----------



## swilow

^Why place yourself below? Curious.

As above...


----------



## Jabberwocky

psy997 said:


> I'm not sure how to write it any more simply.
> 
> Also, to claim GB Islamophobic because of his truthful statement of Muslims still selling, and basically objectifying, women openly is ludicrous. Do you then counter claim that Islam is of no fault? If not, are you then Islamaphobic? Come on.



Is the particular practices you see today referred to as sharia law a product of Islam? Actually, it isn't. It's a product of how those who assume power interpret and use Islam for their own particular ends, particularly as far as maintaining existing power structures to. Depending on the time and place, Islamic law has varied just as much as our history of jurisprudence in the western world. Historically speaking, Islamic communities were once a bastion of gender based equalities, particularly as far as divorce for women go, far, far before divorce became a legal option for western women. 

He isn't islamophic because he stated a fact that some Islamic communities still practice slavery (see Mauritania), but that wasn't what I took issue with. It's extracting something supposedly essential about a hugely diverse worldwide Islamic community that promotes slavery. That IS the definition of Islamaphobia. 

There is nothing inherent to either Christianity or Islam in my experience that promotes such inhumane practices (or if there is, it's an issue equally with both canons), though various leaders at various points in history have used such religions to legitimize inhuman practices they benefit from. But it would be a mistake to identify something about how a particular leader or community used/uses their religion, whether Christianity or Islam, to justify inhumane practices as essentially representative of the actual religion itself. 

So yes, Islam is no more at fault than Christianity is. I take it you don't have much exposure to Islam or Muslims compared to Juedo-Christians, or about the history of western religion and the global slave trade.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

*Jesus is the way and that way is the Gnostic Christian way. Not Christianity’s way.*

Jesus is the way and that way is the Gnostic Christian way. Not Christianity’s way.

Isaiah 56:11) "They are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for the day of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORD occupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9) & (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between the righteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:18)

 Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

 Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 The Luke and Mark quotes are referring to the following.

 Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

 John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 For an extended view of that from my favorite philosopher. ----






You will note that the bible teaches Jesus’ way and Gnostic Christianity follows that good way, yet the church never teaches Jesus’ true way.

Why is Christianity ignoring and even hiding the only worthy Jesus and the teachings of his way? 

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

After reading the bible, I dont see how God is limited by anything accept logic itself, which I feel exists because God exists.

Its why the question "Can God create a rock so heavy He cant lift it" is philosophically, well, stupid...  The question is malformed, it lacks definition..  God can only do what God can logically do.  Creating a rock so heavy that God cant lift it presupposes God is affected by physical weight, which Hes not. The flaw is not with God, the flaw is in the presupposition coded into the question, one that cannot be true.  Its not a yes or no that could answer the question, and the question itself is nonsensical. Can God run blue wednesday shutter cats?  If not, is it then fair to say He is not God because He cant do that?

The answer to the rock question is simple, No, God cannot, because its not logically possible for God to do in the first place.  God would have to violate a principle of logic, refuting His own existence merely by trying to create said rock.. 

Can God create a square circle, or a married bachelor?  More stupid questions.. yet someone will no doubt say that God is not God simply because He doesnt literally break the principles of logic, but reality wouldnt exist if a logical contradiction could exist.


I seems more like men are forming questions about God as if God is limited by the same things humans are, but there is a major difference between men on earth, and God.


----------



## swilow

Doesn't limiting God make It less...godly?


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> Doesn't limiting God make It less...godly?



Exactly, God can only do what is logically possible for God to do, for example, God couldnt cease to exist, and exist at the same time, if that were possible, nothing could be true.  Its tantamount to philosophical absurdity.  Another example in the bible says God cannot lie, meaning that God cannot propose something that is outright not true, and then pass it off as true, this is a violation of logic as it would require an attribute of God to be self contradictory which isnt an attribute that is logically possible for God to possess.  The only limitations God has is that God cannot sin, His very existence necessitates this ontologically speaking, but then that isnt a 'limitation' but a measure of His perfection, maximal greatness.  God cannot be "not perfect" where as we can, and in fact arent, moreover, we do things every day to prove we arent perfect.  

Heres a fun one.. God is omniscient, so what does He think about?  Thoughts represent the entertaining of and transition of ideas, discovery, learning ect..  These are not afforded to God because He has all knowledge that can be known, or maximal knowledge.  What is the point of learning if you already have maximal knowledge, and doesnt that make learning a limitation?  I believe it does, but then humans are limited.  

The incomprehensible scope of Gods greatness, in every capacity is beyond the human ability to understand, because it would require us to be equal to God, which is impossible, and we prove this daily with our faults, our lack of knowledge, our inability to cope with things that cannot affect God the way it does us, necessarily.  

Kinda the point God makes when He says "My ways are higher than your ways, my thoughts are higher than your thoughts".  We try to play like we are gods, but we are riddled with ontological qualities that are antithetical to, and therefore disqualify us from godhood.

We couldnt even know we arent perfect without a standard of perfection, which is God.  It truly is amazing to think about and Im so thankful for my existence to even be aware of these fundamental truths, truths that are often overlooked, incidentally, by people with 'lack of knowledge'..


----------



## vortech

What if God isn't perfect? What if God is still working on it, and this Universe is one that God finally managed to achieve such an impeccable equilibrium and balance of elements to allow our tiny little speck to flourish into the Eden that it could potentially be (if humans don't keep fucking it up)? We live in a free will Universe, perhaps God granted us that power or perhaps God just seeded the reaction and let it fly to see how it worked and is intentionally not interfering. Maybe God wants our help to continue sorting it out and discover the same potential that God possesses.
Anyway I don't necessarily see God as a single omnipotent entity. Perhaps there are many levels to this machinery, and our creator(s) are just one level up in the evolutionary scale, just as we are beginning to enter the this stage of creating completely new life in our own image, whether it be biological, synthetic or a hybrid. Our creators may still be seeking their God and levels beyond their current reach, but they have the same basic encoding that all successful life contains, which is an innate desire to create and persevere as life, and I think by fulfilling that creative destiny we become aligned with the ultimate creator consciousness.

I like the ideas of Pantheism, in which God is within all and is the whole of the Universe, and Panpsychism, in which the Universe is consciousness, and God is like a ghost in the machine and the machine is the Universe as an unimaginably immense computer, and God can travel through these etheric wires, shaping and tuning anything along to the way, destruction and creation to maintain balance and inch closer to perfection. Humans, because we do have this power of consciousness, may be able to tap into that greater network and activate ancient wisdom encoded into the fabric, inching towards realizing our highest purpose as divinely-powered counter-entropy agents, eventually creating our own Universes or discovering a higher level Universe outside of our native dimensions. 

With all the visible evidence of an intentional creative force because of all the absurdly improbable balances (like sextillion to one if it was left to chaos) it only makes sense that a consciousness had a hand in the orchestration, one that is everlastingly omnipotent and omniscient because it is everywhere and everything, one that is so great that it exists outside of our known Universe, a Universe that birthed our own Universe just as we birth new generations, and we are entangled to it because we came from it. That's what I mean that God may not be singular in that way  but as reflections made in Gods image, and the whole of the hologram is within us, (like how there are 33 million Hindu gods, and all are part of one, Brahma) and the more that we come together with our pieces of the puzzle, the more we listen to that subtle signal in the etheric wires to find and fulfill our purposes, the clearer the image of God becomes, and the clearer the channel to God's Source.

I could go on replying to the hypothetical with additional hypothetical but I'm on a phone for now


----------



## AddictRecon

vortech said:


> What if God isn't perfect?


 which god?


----------



## psy997

AddictRecon said:


> which god?



Did you even read the rest of the post or are you asking that not so much to vortech but to those trying to bind God to logic?


----------



## vortech

AddictRecon said:


> which god?


I explained a bit more further in the post, that it could be referring to any number of gods. Initially I was playing to the belief of a singular God, but if there was a singular entity given credit for engineering this Universe, I would be referring to that. Since we don't know for sure, why not consider that it could be any of God's manifestations responsible for the Universe's creation, and likewise for humanity's creation (possibly 2 separate gods)?


----------



## AddictRecon

vortech said:


> I explained a bit more further in the post, that it could be referring to any number of gods. Initially I was playing to the belief of a singular God, but if there was a singular entity given credit for engineering this Universe, I would be referring to that. Since we don't know for sure, why not consider that it could be any of God's manifestations responsible for the Universe's creation, and likewise for humanity's creation (possibly 2 separate gods)?



Ill explain why I dont consider God as having multiple manifestations.  Logically speaking, there cant be belief systems contrasting with one another that can be valid at the same time, at the least, one is correct, the rest are necessarily wrong, this is a principle of logic no one can deny, one of the universal truths reality exists on.  My own experiences with Jesus Christ directly, while subjective of course (you arent me, so you only have my testimony to go on, hence the subjective nature of my claim), are impossible for me personally to refute, Jesus Christ is the only living God, the God incarnate of Holy writ, I dont say that like "Maybe its true" or "I could be wrong", I say that as a fact, and that is a fact that I believe will collide with every human being at some point in their existence, either in this life or the next.  Your next statement would likely be "Prove it" or "but how do you know if you are correct", but proving God to someone that God has distanced Himself from is impossible, at least from the bibles perspective. God is not my lapdog, and Im not his event coordinator, I am a servant, and if in fact He has distanced or as scripture teaches, hidden Himself from a non believer due to their rejection of Him, or refusal to acknowledge Him, then its necessarily impossible to prove God to that person, that is the biblical position, but its the place I was in as well, I rejected the God of the bible most of my life, never really knowing if He was who He said He was. God isnt falsifiable, which I knew before I gave my life into Christs hands, I guess thats why I was agnostic most of my life.  But Christ delivered me, He saved me from my own destructive nature and empowered me, in that my life pulled an immediate 180, I credit Jesus Christ with all of this, and even if someone put a gun to my head, death would be the better option before denying Christ, its that profound.  That is a hard thing for someone without my experience, Im no theologian, but after I gave my life in His hands, I set my mind to study, I read my life in scripture over and over, my faults, my sin, why we do the things we do, the depression, the pride we have the circular reasoning that keeps us trapped in addiction, it all makes absolute perfect sense, but none of us need a bible to examine ourselves, we are our own worst enemies, the bible just elaborates why.  I cried out to Christ in desperation, He answered. 

 Being a Christian was quite possibly the furthest notion from my mind for most of my adult life, and Im actually still adjusting, but after 12 years of being married to my wife, having no children, my wife and I prayed, and in two years we were given 3 sons (two of them identical twins).  I dont believe in coincidence, and if in theory this was all coincidence, Im truly the luckiest man alive.  I credit Christ for the empowerment that led to my ability to kick drugs.  Some people kick drugs because they get scared, realizing it could actually end their lives, this is wise, but may not last.  I was delivered, and I share my testimony on the matter to help others who want to have an entirely new perspective, one that comes from God Himself, and the generous knowledge and wisdom that comes with it.  Knowledge is an accumulation of data, wisdom is the correct application of it, all of us were endowed with an intrinsic knowledge of God, but we typically choose to serve ourselves, the created, rather than God, the creator, as a result, God distances himself from us and we struggle to experience His presence, if at all, leading to unbelief.

I read all of your post, but the reason I asked which god is for a couple reasons.  You brought up more than one belief system, and I wanted to know specifically which you were referring to.  In both Jewish and Christian theology, God is only referenced as omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, there is no evidence to the contrary, so I see why you would ask the question, what if god isnt perfect, but you arent asking about the God of the bible because He isnt defined any other way, so your question is the result of unbelief and scientific inquiry, not that you have experience with mulitple deities, or have information about their ontology. The 'what if' stems from the fact that you do not know if the God of the bible is actually true, so you have doubts. I get that totally,  I had the same questions you did, but what Christ did for me, the effect my faith (trust) in Him has had on my life, is undeniable.  Im in what I thought was a Christian thread, so I dont feel my statements are out of bounds, and while I respect others right to believe what they choose, I try to offer something to people they can invest in with an equitable return, not simply something you believe in, something you experience and will in fact reshape your entire reality with a joy no drug can match.

Im not a 'great' Christian, Im only learning because this is new to me, and I dont really understand the churches, they often confuse me more than anything, so I rely on prayer and the insights God reveals generously to me, insights available to anyone willing to approach God in humility.  Im not a humble man, but I was humbled by my own self destructive nature and I cried out, this is when God answered me, and opened my eyes.

I dont get into the arguments or the back in forth I see so many Christians engaging in with people, I dont understand it, they act is if they are somehow morally superior, which Christ teaches against.  I could easily write a post as long as this one detailing my own faults.  Christ is quoted as saying "These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me'..  The Church, if the bible is true, is at its worst as time progresses and Christ has quite a lot to say about the church and its shortcomings, the cluster we have today called Christianity is in direct contrast to what Christ taught, which is why Christians are doing more harm than good, Im still attacked for my faith in Christ, but not from unbelievers so much, but from the church itself.  Its nuts..

Please let me know if you want me to clarify or further expound on something Ive said, and thank you for your time, I know how valuable it is, so having you invest in this dialogue is something Im very thankful for, if not, thats cool too.


----------



## vortech

Christ is righteous I have no doubt, and I believe in the power of Christ consciousness to transform the world for the better. If I have to identify with one of the world's major religions I choose Christianity to remain true to my heritage, baptism and teachings. The thing is though I love entertaining all possibilities because there is so much mystery. That and a dark underside of the church has existed for a long time, and man's corruption has made its way through 'The Word' in many ways. You are right; many Christians do not apply Christ's teaching which is a crying shame and one reason why I don't actively identify as Christian, other reasons are the church as a corrupt institution of Man. The whole thing has a murkiness, and I seek clarity. I attended catholic high school and was quickly taught a contextual interpretation of the bible, so I don't take scripture as 100% literal truth. Why didn't the editors of the bible or just lay the word out plain as day to not make any room for interpretation?  Why has the modern day bible eliminated some of the most powerful and empowering messages of the original bible? (Gnositicm is my most closely aligned denomination because it seeks to restore these repressed teachings) My answer is because the church did not want the peasants to know the whole story. Keep it simple to keep the masses more easily controlled, keep telling them to give their riches to the church or thou shalt not enter the kingdom of heaven, stuff like that I can go on and on. 
But I appreciate your comments, and you are correct, if God is one who is omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent , it is hard to see how God could be any less than perfect.


----------



## AddictRecon

vortech said:


> That and a dark underside of the church has existed for a long time, and man's corruption has made its way through 'The Word' in many ways. You are right; many Christians do not apply Christ's teaching which is a crying shame and one reason why I don't actively identify as Christian



I think I may have set the wrong precedent for this conversation, and while I do have reservations about the Church, to write it off because it has some bad adherents is tantamount to cheating yourself of the health benefits of going to the gym because there are people there who are out of shape, it just isnt a rational approach.  I havent abstained from going to Church, or working with other Christians, rather I try to keep true to teachings of Christ, and while many Christians may be misrepresenting Christ, I take that as an opportunity to share with them what Christ has done in my life in hopes they turn from bankrupt doctrinal views, or bickering over who has the best translation of the bible, it simply isnt the crux of the problem, yet they make it out that way.

Im not really on board with Gnosticism as a sect or belief system, as I find it antithetical to Christs teachings.  Spiritual enlightenment, or having the 'mind of Christ', as it is written, is only attainable from a place of humility, perhaps one of mans greatest struggles and that only happens with the help of God, we simply cannot do it on our own.  We think very highly of ourselves which clouds our ability to see Gods glory, and this leads to pride, something more in common with satan, who attempted to exalt himself above God , which can and does lead to a false sense of elitism concerning knowledge.  My understanding of knowledge is that in fact does begin with a proper observation of God, and the disparity between God and man.. Once we recognize that we in fact are not God, or equivalent to God, or that no matter what we do we can never be God, then we start demonstrating to God that we understand our place as the beings He so lovingly created.  Empty your cup so that God can fill it, watch what happens as a result.  In newage philosophy, a great deception in my opinion, we are told that you should empty yourself in meditation, push everything out of your mind, think of nothing, and focus all your energy on the self, this is a deception of great demonic influence, and will likely lead to self delusion at best, and demonic possession, though unwittingly, at worst.

If you are deceived, how could you know you were deceived? This is knowledge.

Its not about what texts or translation of the bible you adhere to, what 'hidden texts' or documents you think bring enlightenment, this is the backwards approach to gaining knowledge. I found this out when I gave my life to Christ and the answers I sought came from prayer.  It makes sense that the Church was initially formed without access to bibles, they had direct insight from God via His Spirit, something that is overwhelmingly missing in the Church today, but not entirely.  What keeps people from knowledge of God, or access to the unfathomable wisdom He so generously gives freely is sin against God.  The early church didnt rely on texts, they simply werent in mass production at the time, they prayed, and God filled them with knowledge, but they were humble.  They knew this so resolutely that they died for these principles.

Tozer wrote that idolatry is in essence the 'incorrect view of God', to which I couldnt agree more.  As men we have made ourselves into idols, we offer gifts to ourselves, the drugs are just another form of self worship and ritualistic behavior, and we are stuck in that behavior because we are at odds with God, and when we need help we wonder why He isnt right there.

Seek the Lord while He may be found, this is what is written.  It is also written that if you draw near to the Lord, He will draw near to you, but if that is true, then conversely, through sin against God, you are forcing God to distance himself from you, these are fundamental truths you can make an equitable investment in.

My approach to counteracting bad knowledge isnt to finger point, or tell someone they are wrong, but rather explain why God is right, the rest comes on its own.  Truth ultimately needs no defenders, it is the end of all of us, something we all will confront sooner or later.

True knowledge, or 'gnosticism' begins with humility and a reverence for God, He will sort out the rest from my experience.  Our wisdom is foolishness with God, which is why we should seek His knowledge, and His wisdom, and be content with what Hes willing to impart, ever so graciously I might add.

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## psy997

I get the feeling that as you see other's misunderstand God in the way that you understand "him" you misunderstand the teaching of gnosticism and individual god-realization as well.


----------



## vortech

I can tell you are passionate and devoted, you make a lot of points that would make for a great real-time exchange (seriously, send me a PM and we will talk if you would like). I also sense a darkness in Gnosticism. i read from a distance but do not practice. Their respect for the ways of Lucifer for instance as you mentioned is troublesome. 
Humility is very important for spiritual growth, that I agree, but I respectfully disagree that you think humans are not capable of touching upon Christ consciousness. 
Your comments on meditation are curious...and made me think, and sure I guess it is possible that emptying ones thoughts in meditation can open a channel to unwanted spirits, bit it can also open channels for healing spirits- its all about tuning in my verbiage. I had a mantra-ish message that came to me spontaneously,
'empty your heart
In this stillness you will find clarity'
I don't believe it came from a spirit of ill intention
It helped me clear up deep emotional tangles, see things a little more objectively, and unify my channels (again in my verbiage).
I do believe there are spirits that work through humans when those doors are open, and it may not be as simple as a black and white, dark and light sides...I believe that is a gross oversimplification.
More reponse later...


----------



## AddictRecon

psy997 said:


> I get the feeling that as you see other's misunderstand God in the way that you understand "him" you misunderstand the teaching of gnosticism and individual god-realization as well.



You may actually be right about that, my experience with gnostics is limited, I must admit.. If you guys have any recommended resources that you could point me towards to give me a better understanding of what you believe, id be grateful


----------



## AddictRecon

vortech said:


> but I respectfully disagree that you think humans are not capable of touching upon Christ consciousness.



This might clear up my belief on 'Christ consciousness'.. Because there is a context where I absolutely agree on Christ consciousness, just not from a metaphysical new age perspective.. I forget the name of the books, David someone or other, who teaches on levels of consciousness, with the pinnacle of consciousness being "Christ consciousness" But Jesus will give you that simply by asking, no need to jump through metaphysical hoops.

1Co 2:15  The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 
1Co 2:16  “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” _*But we have the mind of Christ. 
*_
Having the mind of Christ is the empowerment through the Spirit of God Himself, the Holy Spirit, or "The Spirit of Christ"

Rom_8:9  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the *Spirit of Christ* does not belong to him.
1Pe 1:10  Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 
1Pe 1:11  inquiring what person or time the *Spirit of Christ* in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 


I hope I am in keeping with the context with this thread but I certainly dont want to derail it, so If you want I can definitely go with a more private venue via pm if youd like


----------



## psy997

AddictRecon said:


> But Jesus will give you that simply by asking, no need to jump through metaphysical hoops.



How so? From pondering your whole reply for a few minutes + my own beliefs I fail to see any which in which Christ Consciousness can be achieved simply from asking Jesus for it to be so. If that was the case, why have we not seen a massive amount of awakened and Christ embodying individuals in the most fervent of Christian cultures in the past 2,000 years?


I understand the scripture you've quoted, but fail to see how it makes any point as to man achieving the same. It simply talks of the process and being of holding such a consciousness.


----------



## AddictRecon

psy997 said:


> How so? From pondering your whole reply for a few minutes + my own beliefs I fail to see any which in which Christ Consciousness can be achieved simply from asking Jesus for it to be so. If that was the case, why have we not seen a massive amount of awakened and Christ embodying individuals in the most fervent of Christian cultures in the past 2,000 years?
> 
> 
> I understand the scripture you've quoted, but fail to see how it makes any point as to man achieving the same. It simply talks of the process and being of holding such a consciousness.



Only Christ Himself has the full measure of the Spirit, we are imparted with what God is willing to impart but we can never achieve Christhood, He is perfect and we are not, in fact we are imperfected by our sin against a perfect God.  If I could quantify it, it has to do with submission, sacrifice, humility and the denial of the self.  As far as the last 2000 years are concerned, I'd say there were millions, possibly billions of men of God who had been given His Spirit, this is salvation.  To what degree God works in a person has more to do with how much a person is willing to deny themselves.  Christ as the "image of the invisible God" came to teach us, and his teachings are best summed up as 'The denial of the self in favor of observance of the one and only living God'.

The reason so many Christians are struggling is because they refuse to deny themselves, this is a hard thing, but submission to God draws Him near and the power He gives can help us to overcome our self destructive nature.  Our physical spiritual interface is the very flesh we are occupying, but that flesh is corrupt, and if left unchecked would gratify every aspect of its nature, which is in fundamental opposition to God.  We know right from wrong, but like ink being dropped one drop at a time into a glass of water, we slowly become deluded, polluted by our sin, until finally God has distanced Himself so far from us that we fall into deception, we start crafting ideas about ourselves but those ideas we are crafting are nonsense, we are just playing with our imaginations until our spiritual interface, or our flesh, wears out.  Then we will see our creator, our Lord, Christ Jesus, who is God.  A God who's glory face to face will expose our every flaw, our every sin, and we will be judged.  To not be covered by the blood of the atonement will result in God necessarily acting in accordance with His nature, which is to destroy that which is in opposition to Him, Christ refers to this as hell, something that wasn't specifically revealed until His incarnation and later described through His ministry.  

The Glory of God is ultimately incomprehensible to man because we have no ability to attain it, there is only one God, every other entity is necessarily not God.  Satan was blinded by his own self worship, being the highest created being, he carries the highest curse of damnation and consequently has the most hate of any entity for God. 

Of the gifts God imparts, which serve His purpose and belong to Him alone, mine is knowledge, and my role in the Church is to share that within the body of Christ, for Gods glory, not mine, as it's completely useless to someone without the Spirit of God.  You are already shaking your head while reading this because its likely foolishness to you.  I'm still a man, I am limited and I can never have the full measure of the Spirit like Christ, but then I'm not Christ, so I'm not expecting that, nor would I dare think I could achieve it, that is blasphemous to even suggest, and I should probably go into prayer over the mere mention of such blasphemy, I truly am a wicked creature, but the Lord has saved me from my own self.  We literally are our own worst enemies, and if that doesn't suffice, there are plenty adversaries of the spiritual variety who are lining up to help us with our destruction, of which, lucifer is chief, you know him as satan, the great deceiver, who has tricked mankind into following the lusts of the flesh and deceives men into thinking they can also, like himself, achieve Godhood.

All the new age self centered nonsense that is so pervasive in the world, is chief among those deceptions, yet its taking off like wildfire in a world of self worship.  This is very sad...


----------



## psy997

https://www.amazon.com/Not-His-Image-Gnostic-Ecology/dp/193149892X

I don't have the space to reply as I quite honestly disagree with almost everything you've written there. Our flesh is not corrupt, attachment to it is. Christ was not perfect, and we will never be either, he was human. He was the son of God only in that he aligned his consciousness with that of the Creator, and thus lost himself. But not through denial of his divinity. Jesus was not special, he was only successful. Any of us may be as well. The idea that we are imperfect because we are imperfect is the greatest lie propagated by the false god of mainstream Christianity. The ideal of perfection creates a perpetual and neverending cycle of failing/falling because humans cannot achieve it.

You limit yourself if you tell yourself you will never be like Christ. Did he not himself say that you too can know the kingdom of Heaven? Why then would you put him on a pedestal of perfection and unattainability? That goes directly against his word. The reason is that you've listened to this bullshit that perfection is attainable, and until you attain it, you are in some way wrong or less divine than Christ or the Creator. That is the biggest lie ever told.

I apologize for being unable to continue but I quite frankly thought this was a much different conversation than it is.


----------



## AddictRecon

Its not that Christians cant be like Christ, Christianity teaches quite the opposite, "Put on Christ", or "Imitate Christ" are a few quotes that come to mind.  But it would appear the disparity here comes from who we believe Christ was, for you, He was just some other human based on what I am getting from you, for me, He is God incarnate, our Creator in human form, the avatar or interface of the invisible living God, made flesh to sacrifice Himself for the sins of mankind, that we might have everlasting life, true life, not in this life, but the next.  Ill be physically dead soon, this is of no concern to me because it simply isnt relevant to my existence, its just flesh.

The disparity in who we think Christ is means we would both be defending two different people, rather than discussing a single person, I simply do not know who the Christ you believe in is, He certainly isnt the one who communicates to me, and I do not worship this man you regard as christ, the only commonality between us is that we use a name that is identical for two different character descriptions.  Its no different than two people name Tom, same name, different people, the conversation might be the very definition of futility.  

Further discussion on the subject is pointless, Id have to die before I give up the truth of who Christ is, my life is just not that important, its who God is that is important to me.

No need to apologize btw, I respect your right to believe whatever you want.


----------



## AddictRecon

Isa_9:6  For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, *Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace*.

Isa 53:3  He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 
Isa 53:4  _*Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows*_; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 
Isa 53:5  But _he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed_. 
Isa 53:6  _All we like sheep have gone astray_; we have turned—*every one*—*to his own way*; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 
Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 
Isa 53:8  By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 
Isa 53:9  And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 
Isa 53:10  Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 
Isa 53:11  Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. 
Isa 53:12  Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; _yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors._ 

Zec 12:10  “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, *when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced*, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Why is Christianity ignoring and even hiding the only worthy Jesus and the teachings of his way?



Jesus couldnt be more thorough about why with this very topic, He quite literally explains the failure of Christianity, but He himself doesnt identify these people as real believing Christians, its a title they carry only, its what the new testament is about, Paul himself warns of falling from true saving grace, getting caught up in false christs, of the which there are many people are deluded with.

"These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me"  -Jesus Christ, our Lord


----------



## RDP89

I would argue that Jesus is not the way.


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> I would argue that Jesus is not the way.



For now.


----------



## achat

Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.

That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.


----------



## AddictRecon

achat said:


> Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.
> 
> That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.



God created us, If He distances Himself from us, it is because we are not worthy of Him.  The arrogance of man, limited in knowledge, is ever trying to equate himself to an omniscient God..  

The irony..


----------



## swilow

If we, gods creation, are unworthy of him, why is that our fault? I make music but if I make a shit tune, I don't blame the shit tune.


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> If we, gods creation, are unworthy of him, why is that our fault? I make music but if I make a shit tune, I don't blame the shit tune.



Thats not an analogous argument.. A crappy tune doesnt have sentience, you do.  

if you are going to make a philosophical case, at least adhere to entry level philosophical principles, namely by avoiding fallacious arguments like the one you attempted above.

Thanks in advance


----------



## swilow

Nice response, exactly why I don't bother trying to have civil discussions with religious people.


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> Nice response, exactly why I don't bother trying to have civil discussions with religious people.



I personally know and have atheist friends who are just as studied in philosophical principles who would have called you out on that as well, dont make it about something its not..  Make an analogous argument that actually holds weight and we can talk.  

Thanks


----------



## swilow

Personally, I've little interest in rephrasing my argument just so you'll deign to answer me. You could just answer my original question and ignore my analogy. Why does god blame His creations for their flaws?


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> Personally, I've little interest in rephrasing my argument just so you'll deign to answer me. You could just answer my original question and ignore my analogy. Why does god blame His creations for their flaws?



Ok, now thats more like it, direct and to the point.  Now the answer to that is simple. (keep in mind, this is Christian doctrine, you asked, so Im giving you our perspective)

God created us with an innate, intrinsic knowledge of right and wrong.  We are born without sin, clean slate.. But inevitably, we as humans sin against God, we choose immoral behavior that is in direct contradiction to our own given nature.

Have you ever lied to someone?  God hasnt.  Have you ever stolen something? God hasnt..  


Without God, there is no foundation for right and wrong, which is why people invest so much time in convincing themselves God doesnt exist, so they can do as they please.. But sin will always lead to negative affects on ones own life.

Simply disagreeing with God isnt an argument against His existence.

Now heres the part you will actually like.

As a Christian, its impossible to prove or disprove god to a person.  The Bible states clearly that God hides himself, God hates the proud, the wicked and those who reject Him, so He removes all sense of His presence from that person, allowing them to fall into a deception, this is something the person initiates, not God.

I commune with God, but daily I seek Him, and as scripture states, If you draw near to the Lord, He will draw near to you, which logically and conversely one must deduce that if you distance yourself from the Lord, He will distance Himself from you.   You ultimately would deny there even is a God because you cant feel His presence. Sin, pride, things God hates are what forces His hand in distancing Himself from unbelievers or even Christians if they fall into sin.. yes, God distances Himself from Christians who sin as well, especially because they know better..

If God has hidden Himself from an unbeliever, and I was able to usurp Gods ability to remain hidden, and prove God exists, i would have more power than God, which is not possible, its also why Christians do not have the power to prove, or force belief of God on someone God has distanced Himself from.

All the proof you need of God is literally at your fingertips, you just have to take a step towards Him... I was agnostic most of my life, but drugs and sin took their tole and I cried out to the Lord, He answered, and now the joy I have in the Lord is something no drug can compare to, you simply cannot imagine the joy of salvation, there is nothing like it, its why I preach Christ crucified for the remission of sin, because I was set free, given the power to overcome sin in my life and know true joy..

The profundity of what Ive just said to you is truly incomprehensible, I simply cannot put it into words adequately enough..  Once it happens, you will say the same things I am, and you will likely be hated for it.. As I am.


----------



## swilow

AddictRecon said:


> God created us with an innate, intrinsic knowledge of right and wrong.



I'll have to stop you there. What makes you think this? Nearly everything we see in adult humans is learned, from mechanical activities such as talking and walking to our sense of self and self-awareness. They take time to develop. Why would our morality be any different? I think there is evidence that you cannot impose the same morality onthe actions of a baby than to a full adult. 

Consider the idea of object impermanence. It is hard for me to imagine that a baby has the capacity to steal when a baby does not understand that an object it can no longer see still exists. It does not really have the ability to recognise ownership of objects. 



> Without God, there is no foundation for right and wrong, which is why people invest so much time in convincing themselves God doesnt exist, so they can do as they please.



To the contrary, from my perspective the fact that we have a system of morality in the face of the overwhelming probability that the Christian god does not exist actually demonstrates that humans are absolutely capable of conceiving of right and wrong without needing it imposed from birth. We have morals but there is no god, hence god is not required to develop morality. 

What you are saying is that without god, we would be murderous savages. And yet, in the current age with the rise of secular values and the decreasing reliance upon doctrine, we are seeing dramatic improvements, globally, in the quality and length of life of an average human. We are seeing less crime and less poverty than at any other time in human history, including the very brief period of time in which Christian doctrine has held sway. Perhaps because we are taking responsibility for ourselves in our one and only life, we have stopped imagining we have an eternity to repent and so we are actually more moral than ever before. 

For me, I do not do things I find immoral because that is how I expect others to act, not because god inspires me. I do not believe in consequneces for my behaviour in any true sense, I do not think there is any justice or retribution for immorality in an afterlife, but I choose not to 'sin' in the hope that other humans are also choosing the same thing.


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> I'll have to stop you there. What makes you think this?



Let me stop you there as well.. Perhaps you forgot, but Im also a human, so I have a little insight into what it means to be just that, human.  You know as well as I do that stealing, murdering, ect. are wrong.  You dont have to learn this behavior is wrong, and you arent about to convince me that someone had to teach you it was wrong, these moral issues are fundamental to the integrity of our civilization.  A murderer knows murder is wrong, they simply do not care.  A thief knows they are wrong, they simply do not care what the consequences are, the reward for the wrong is greater in their eyes.  Steal from a child and they know its wrong, hurt a child and they know its wrong. We know these intrinsic moral truths because we dont want them to happen to us.  You dont have to learn that you dont want to be murdered, or that you dont want to be stolen from, nobody wants this, and likewise, we know that others do not either.

So please dont contradict yourself and pretend for a second that you dont believe we have an innate sense of morality, thats not only dishonest, but disingenuous to even suggest such foolishness..  Atheists dont even make that argument and they flat out reject God, but they still believe in an innate sense of moral obligation, they just cant justify it.



swilow said:


> It is hard for me to imagine that a baby has the capacity to steal when a baby does not understand that an object it can no longer see still exists. It does not really have the ability to recognise ownership of objects.



You obviously dont have children, because my son has always tried to take things without my approval, he stares at me when Im not looking hoping I wont notice, even though Im aware, you better believe he knows what hes doing is wrong, otherwise he wouldnt sneak around me, he would just take things off my desk without so much as a second guess.  Hes two now and hes been doing this ever since he could walk.  While I understand hes testing my limits, I also let him know there are consequences for his behavior.



swilow said:


> in the face of the overwhelming probability that the Christian god does not exist



Philosophically speaking, there is no evidence that God doesnt exist, God is not falsifiable, meaning I cannot prove God to you (for the reasons outlined above) and God cannot be proven to not exist.

You cant give me any evidence God doesnt exist because that evidence would require a falsifiable God to exist, you fall on your own sword with such a statement.




swilow said:


> To the contrary, from my perspective the fact that we have a system of morality


  Which system?  American?  or the Muslims?  Or perhaps the countries in Africa?

Which system of morality is correct?  you cant begin to answer that.  




swilow said:


> For me, I do not do things I find immoral because that is how I expect others to act


  Ah so you agree, that we as humans can relate to how we want to be treated, thus allowing us the knowledge of our own morality to justify our actions and how we treat others.

Thanks for agreeing with me, you just proved my point.

Tell me, since you now understand that morality comes from within, as youve just confirmed, how exactly is your morality not innate?  Did someone have to teach you that you didnt want to be murdered? Stolen from? Cheated on?  Nope, you knew that from moment you could think about it, because that very morality is part of who we are, the very morality I say we have intrinsically, and that you have confirmed.

Why is it wrong to speed? Because there is a statute that governs this behavior.  Whats odd is that depending on your locale, these laws that are crafted by men, are subjective.  Same with morality, if men determine what is moral, then you will always have conflict, because if you were a resident of Iran, you are morally obligated to cut the head off of a person who disagrees with your Islamic faith.  But wait, you dont agree with that, I wonder why that is. 

Morality is true because it has a foundation to support it, that foundation is not a matter of mixed opinion, otherwise morality is entirely subjective, and things like right or wrong are up to the person, not what is true.

But you believe you have a true morality, in fact, you live by that morality, and no doubt expect others to live by that as well, which means there is a foundation for that morality, one that is true for all people, not just yourself, otherwise you acknowledge that while murder may be immoral for you, I am just as justified in murdering as an obligatory measure of pure enjoyment and you cant tell me Im wrong. 

The only way murder is wrong objectively is if their is an objective foundation for why, and that why is God.  With no author, with no statutes, morality is whatever we want it to be. Legislation by men can change, and what is considered murder in the US is not considered murder in Iran, who is correct?  You cant answer that without a foundation, you can only give your opinion on the matter.

I can ground all morality in an objectively true moral lawgiver, whether you think my position is rational, you cant point to one logical incoherrance in my position, this is not something you can do, you can only ground your morality in your opinion, but you do agree that you have a moral code that you live by, and if you try and tell me for one second that you had to 'learn' this morality, Im sorry but Im not going to be able to take you serious.

Thats like saying I dont rape women because God had to tell me it was wrong or I had to learn it was wrong to rape.... Thats nonsense, raping women is wrong because I know it is wrong, I cant imagine wanting to be raped myself, and if I dont want to be raped, how am I justified in raping someone?  It doesnt take a harvard law degree to figure this out.. We know because we know how we want to be treated ourselves, this is the innate moral compass we all live by, some people circumvent this for self gratification, but they never want it done to themselves.


----------



## swilow

Didn't read any of it, you're much too abrasive to waste time on.


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> Didn't read any of it, you're much too abrasive to waste time on.



I appreciate your time regardless.

Good evening


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

swilow said:


> ^Why place yourself below? Curious.
> 
> As above...



Mostly pride from doing my duty and taking honor from doing so. I am also being true to my animal nature and taking pleasure from knowing my proper place in the scheme of things natural.

Have you not noted that the stronger in the tribes and other mammalian animal groups have the strongest defending the weakest?

For me to let a woman or child, whom I see as weaker than I, although this is not always true but does not effect my policy, be placed below me would be me shirking my duty to the weak of society.  

Do you think the strong should serve the needs of the weak? Or do you think the weak should serve the strong?

As a Gnostic Christian, I am trying to develop my Christ mind and Christ said he came to serve, not to be served.

If I am to try to be like Jesus then I too must serve.

Regards
DL


----------



## swilow

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Do you think the strong should serve the needs of the weak? Or do you think the weak should serve the strong?
> 
> Regards
> DL



Definitely the former. In fact, that is what shapes nearly all my ethical decisions. 

What are your thoughts on vegetarianism?


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Christ said he came to serve, not to be served



In the correct context of the scripture you are referring to, this is correct, Christ in fact did come to serve, that was the entire point of His incarnation, to demonstrate how we are to serve God first, and others, thus fulfilling the law of God and the prophets, but Christ served God first, as it is written. (Mat 22:37-40) Which doesnt seem to be brought up much on this forum..  Romans 12:1-2 reiterates our first duty to serve God as well.

On the other hand, and contextually as scripture teaches, Jesus accepted worship, not only as the son of God, but as being equal to God (because He is God) (Mat 2:11; 14:33; 21:9), was directly referred to as God (Joh 20:28 ), and was prophesied as being the 'almighty God' of Isaiahs prophecy (Isa 9:6)

Jesus understood His ontology was difficult for people to understand, that being God incarnate was not something we could fully understand (Phi 2:5-6)

The incarnation (image of the invisible God Col 1:15) of Christ in the physical flesh, was the temporary aspect of His ontology (Heb 2:7; 2:9).

Christ is the same alpha and omega (first and last) of the OT and the New, which is worthy of not only worship, but reverence as God and our creator. (Isa 44:6 Isa 48:12 Rev 1:8; Rev 21:6; Rev 22:13)


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> After reading the bible, I dont see how God is limited by anything accept logic itself, which I feel exists because God exists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You do not see how because you have swallowed a lot of B.S. thanks to your feelings, instead of your intellect.
> 
> Go back and think like the ancients did and as Jesus would advise. Seek God and stop believing B.S. said of him by those who have no way of knowing anything about God.
> 
> http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I seems more like men are forming questions about God as if God is limited by the same things humans are, but there is a major difference between men on earth, and God.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


You have nothing to back up this statement, which is why you did not name the major difference.

If you meant that man can reproduce true and God cannot then I agree with you. That shows a limit to God that man does not have and thus makes us more powerful than God.




			
				AddictRecon;14086578[QUOTE said:
			
		

> ]Exactly, God can only do what is logically possible for God to do, for example, God couldnt cease to exist, and exist at the same time[/QUOTE
> 
> Explain to us then how Jesus could die a real true death and then return?
> 
> You say God is logical. Put logic on that bare bone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ]e, if that were possible, nothing could be true.  Its tantamount to philosophical absurdity.  Another example in the bible says God cannot lie, meaning that God cannot propose something that is outright not true,
> 
> 
> 
> a
> 
> Selective reading I see. Your God is the Father of lies.
> _Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth ofthese thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. _
> 1Kings 22:23
> 
> _Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth ofthese thy prophets.
> _2 Chron 18:22
> _
> Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. _
> Jer 4:10
> 
> _And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord havedeceived that prophet.
> _Ezekiel 14:9
> 
> _For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believea lie.
> _Thessalonians 2:11
> 
> O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. - Jeremiah 20:7
> 
> To me, God’s worse lie was toAdam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then renegedand in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.
> 
> That pesky God sure works in mysterious ways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nd then pass it off as true, this is a violation of logic as it would require an attribute of God to be self contradictory which isnt an attribute that is logically possible for God to possess.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet scriptures and Christians call God good, when it is obvious that any God who uses genocide and kills when he could take the moralhigh ground and cure is definitely not a good God.
> 
> 
> 
> The only limitations God has is that God cannot sin,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Is genocide not a sin in your view?
> 
> 
> 
> His very existence necessitates this ontologically speaking, but then that isnt a 'limitation' but a measure of His perfection, maximal greatness.  God cannot be "not perfect" where as we can, and in fact arent, moreover, we do things every day to prove we arent perfect.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If genocide is a trait of perfection, would you say that Hitler was more perfect tyhan most of us who recognize the genocide is what a satanic God would use and not a good God?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We couldnt even know we arent perfect without a standard of perfection, which is God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Would a perfect God use genocide or have his son needlessly murdered?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg
> 
> 
> 
> It truly is amazing to think about and Im so thankful for my existence to even be aware of these fundamental truths, truths that are often overlooked, incidentally, by people with 'lack of knowledge'..
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Yes you do lack a lot of knowledge but there is hope if you stop ready your book of myths in a literal way.

You say you seek perfection, as we all should, but look at what your own bible tell you to do to get there.
Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1  Therefore leaving the principles of thedoctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again thefoundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, andof laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternaljudgment.
 
You might note how you refer to what the bible says you should get away from if you seek the knowledge and wisdom
that would perfect you.



vortech said:


> Christ is righteous I have no doubt, and I believe in the power of Christ consciousness to transform the world for the better.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree but you have to cherry pick as most of what Jesus preached, the Roman created Jesus that is, has a lot of immoral tenets.
> 
> I do not mind the esoteric mystical Jesus though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I have to identify with one of the world's major religions I choose Christianity to remain true to my heritage, baptism and teachings. The thing is though I love entertaining all possibilities because there is so much mystery.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Only to the unenlightened.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That and a dark underside of the church has existed for a long time, and man's corruption has made its way through 'The Word' in many ways. You are right; many Christians do not apply Christ's teaching which is a crying shame and one reason why I don't actively identify as Christian, other reasons are the church as a corrupt institution of Man. The whole thing has a murkiness, and I seek clarity. I attended catholic high school and was quickly taught a contextual interpretation of the bible, so I don't take scripture as 100% literal truth. Why didn't the editors of the bible or just lay the word out plain as day to not make any room for interpretation?  Why has the modern day bible eliminated some of the most powerful and empowering messages of the original bible? (Gnositicm is my most closely aligned denomination because it seeks to restore these repressed teachings) My answer is because the church did not want the peasants to know the whole story. Keep it simple to keep the masses more easily controlled, keep telling them to give their riches to the church or thou shalt not enter the kingdom of heaven, stuff like that I can go on and on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> A fair description of the corrupted church. They have lied from the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I appreciate your comments, and you are correct, if God is one who is omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent , it is hard to see how God could be any less than perfect.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


If you ever find that God, then he is no better than a witch and I would recommend what the bible says to do with such. Do not suffer such a God to live.



AddictRecon said:


> I think I may have set the wrong precedent for this conversation, and while I do have reservations about the Church, to write it off because it has some bad adherents is tantamount to cheating yourself of the health benefits of going to the gym because there are people there who are out of shape, it just isnt a rational approach.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree.
> Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed intointolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grownthemselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoralways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
> 
> Jesus said we would know his people by their works anddeeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as hispeople, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
> 
> Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudlycontinuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation.
> If you support Christianity in any way you are showing support for homophobia, misogyny and intolerance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I havent abstained from going to Church, or working with other Christians, rather I try to keep true to teachings of Christ, and while many Christians may be misrepresenting Christ, I take that as an opportunity to share with them what Christ has done in my life in hopes they turn from bankrupt doctrinal views, or bickering over who has the best translation of the bible, it simply isnt the crux of the problem, yet they make it out that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes and that is what prevents them from looking at scriptures from a moral POV so that they can forgive their God for the same infraction that they would condemn men for. Like genocide and having a son needlessly murdered.
> 
> 
> 
> Im not really on board with Gnosticism as a sect or belief system, as I find it antithetical to Christs teachings.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I do not and see myself quoting Jesus more than many Christians.
> 
> http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads...-Gnostic-Christian-way-Not-Christianity’s-way
> 
> 
> 
> Spiritual enlightenment, or having the 'mind of Christ', as it is written, is only attainable from a place of humility, perhaps one of mans greatest struggles and that only happens with the help of God, we simply cannot do it on our own.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Since God does not interfere with our free will, so Christians tell me, then he is not allowed to help.
> 
> As to your notions of humility. Garbage.
> 
> Gnostic Christian humility is not why early Christians tried to decimate us all and burn all of our scriptures. It was Christian egotistically trying to claim their God as the true God, or lack of humility, that had them kill us for our better ideology which Christianity could not refute then or now.
> 
> The last thing a Gnostic Christian wants is to have humility, as that would show we are no better than the Christians who think that a good trait, while we think it just shows someone who lacks confidence in what he is talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> We think very highly of ourselves which clouds our ability to see Gods glory,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yes because there is no glory in being a genocidal son murdering God.
> 
> Tell us about how genocide deserves glory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this leads to pride, something more in common with satan,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Did Satan order us to not put anyone above her?
> 
> God did. W
> 
> Who is shown as the most prideful in scriptures if not God?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> who attempted to exalt himself above God ,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> She was in heaven and you were not, but do you see an immoral tyrant like God is said to be to be worthy of you?
> Would you like to live in a tyranny here on earth under a God who is a genocidal tyrant?
> Remember that even the 1/3 of all angels sided with Satan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seek the Lord while He may be found, this is what is written.  It is also written that if you draw near to the Lord, He will draw near to you, but if that is true, then conversely, through sin against God, you are forcing God to distance himself from you, these are fundamental truths you can make an equitable investment in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow. I can force an Omni-present God to restrict where he will go.
> 
> Thanks for pointing out how man can manipulate your God.
> 
> 
> 
> My approach to counteracting bad knowledge isnt to finger point, or tell someone they are wrong, but rather explain why God is right, the rest comes on its own.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you do not follow the bibles wise teaching shown here? Is that because you do not love your fellow man enough to correct him?
> 
> Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; evenas a father the son in whom he delighteth.
> 
> I look forward to you showing how God is right to kill so many so often in scriptures, even innocent children and babies.
> 
> 
> 
> True knowledge, or 'gnosticism' begins with humility and a reverence for God,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Eh. No.
> 
> Believe it or not, apotheosis is generated by a love generated hate for corrupt religions and governments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He will sort out the rest from my experience.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> O
> 
> If you see a supernatural God at work, then you are delusional.
> 
> 
> 
> our wisdom is foolishness with God,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> This is an outright lie as God directs us to use what wisdom we have to test all things.
> 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what isgood.
> 
> 
> 
> which is why we should seek His knowledge, and His wisdom, and be content with what Hes willing to impart, ever so graciously I might add.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


It might if it were not a genocidal prick of a God we were talking about.




psy997 said:


> I get the feeling that as you see other's misunderstand God in the way that you understand "him" you misunderstand the teaching of gnosticism and individual god-realization as well.



Our friend understand a God who is not a part of humanity and thinks humanity was created by God to serve him.

He forgets two thinks that scriptures tell us. That God does not change and that Jesus said he came to serve man.

Christians are attempting to change God from a servant to a master.



vortech said:


> I can tell you are passionate and devoted, you make a lot of points that would make for a great real-time exchange (seriously, send me a PM and we will talk if you would like). I also sense a darkness in Gnosticism. i read from a distance but do not practice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darkness is good to show where the light is required.
> 
> When you learn to practice it, then you will understand the greatness of Gnostic Christianity as compared to Christianity.
> 
> Gnostic Christianity recognizes good and evil and that good should be loved and that evil should be hated. Christianity is so eager to show a more loving God that they invented unconditional love, and then quickly give all the conditions required to get that love.
> 
> Gnostic Christianity is more honest in that we place goodness as a condition for love and place evil as a good reason to hate. I see that as better than lying about unconditional love.
> 
> 
> 
> Their respect for the ways of Lucifer for instance as you mentioned is troublesome.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> As it should if true. You might remember that Gnostic Christianity holds no supernatural beliefs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Satan and hell are a Christian invention. Bishop Spong is never wrong.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humility is very important for spiritual growth, that I agree, but I respectfully disagree that you think humans are not capable of touching upon Christ consciousness.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> Your comments on meditation are curious...and made me think, and sure I guess it is possible that emptying ones thoughts in meditation can open a channel to unwanted spirits, bit it can also open channels for healing spirits- its all about tuning in my verbiage. I had a mantra-ish message that came to me spontaneously,
> 'empty your heart
> In this stillness you will find clarity'
> I don't believe it came from a spirit of ill intention
> It helped me clear up deep emotional tangles, see things a little more objectively, and unify my channels (again in my verbiage).
> I do believe there are spirits that work through humans when those doors are open, and it may not be as simple as a black and white, dark and light sides...I believe that is a gross oversimplification.
> More reponse later...
Click to expand...


+ 1



AddictRecon said:


> You may actually be right about that, my experience with gnostics is limited, I must admit.. If you guys have any recommended resources that you could point me towards to give me a better understanding of what you believe, id be grateful



My favorite scholar on this is Elaine Pagels. 

Thanks to the fact that Gnostic Christians are esoteric ecumenists, the esoteric teachings from this man has also given me a lot of insight into how to understand the bible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLIHeAYm7yE



AddictRecon said:


> Only Christ Himself has the full measure of the Spirit,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you deny what Jesus and the bible say about Jesus' brethren then, do you?
> Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
> 
> John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.
> 
> Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.
> 
> 
> 
> All the new age self centered nonsense that is so pervasive in the world, is chief among those deceptions, yet its taking off like wildfire in a world of self worship.  This is very sad...
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Not as sad as giving power to some imaginary God concept and idol worshipping it the way you do.



psy997 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Not-His-Image-Gnostic-Ecology/dp/193149892X
> 
> I don't have the space to reply as I quite honestly disagree with almost everything you've written there. Our flesh is not corrupt, attachment to it is. Christ was not perfect, and we will never be either, he was human. He was the son of God only in that he aligned his consciousness with that of the Creator, and thus lost himself. But not through denial of his divinity. Jesus was not special, he was only successful. Any of us may be as well. The idea that we are imperfect because we are imperfect is the greatest lie propagated by the false god of mainstream Christianity. The ideal of perfection creates a perpetual and neverending cycle of failing/falling because humans cannot achieve it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> Christianity invented the fall by reversing the moral of the story of Eden. Jews saw Eden as where man was elevated, not where man fell. This did not help Christianity discredit the Jews, the many serpent cults of those days, as well as women, so Christianity reversed our elevation to our fall.
> 
> http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/
> 
> the _Pentateuch _and _Haftorahs_, observes, ‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You limit yourself if you tell yourself you will never be like Christ. Did he not himself say that you too can know the kingdom of Heaven? Why then would you put him on a pedestal of perfection and unattainability? That goes directly against his word. The reason is that you've listened to this bullshit that perfection is attainable, and until you attain it, you are in some way wrong or less divine than Christ or the Creator. That is the biggest lie ever told.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Especially given that Jesus himself said that any true believer could do what he did and more.
> 
> I apologize for being unable to continue but I quite frankly thought this was a much different conversation than it is.
Click to expand...


That is always the way when speaking with idol worshipers. 



AddictRecon said:


> Further discussion on the subject is pointless, Id have to die before I give up the truth of who Christ is, my life is just not that important, its who God is that is important to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your God is an immoral genocidal God.
> 
> Are God's morals not important to you?
> 
> If they are, why are you following a God with satanic morals?
> 
> Tell us, from your moral standpoint, who is more likely to promote the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty as good justice?
> 
> Satan or your God?
> 
> 
> 
> achat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Religion is personal and if God is not willing to get personal then he is not worthy of us.
> 
> That is why I chose Gnostic Christianity because it does speak to the personal of man's Godhood.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The bible does indeed and shows the way Jesus taught. You will know that that way is never taught by the church.
> 
> 
> 
> AddictRecon said:
> 
> 
> 
> God created us, If He distances Himself from us, it is because we are not worthy of Him.  The arrogance of man, limited in knowledge, is ever trying to equate himself to an omniscient God..
> 
> Only because you have accepted a description of God that is man made and wrong as no one can know anything of the supernatural.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The irony..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> For sure.
> 
> 
> 
> AddictRecon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, now thats more like it, direct and to the point.  Now the answer to that is simple. (keep in mind, this is Christian doctrine, you asked, so Im giving you our perspective)
> 
> God created us with an innate, intrinsic knowledge of right and wrong.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> ?? Which scriptures tell you this lie?
> 
> Then why deny A & E the tree of knowledge that you say they already had?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are born without sin, clean slate.. But inevitably, we as humans sin against God, we choose immoral behavior that is in direct contradiction to our own given nature.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow. So man can somehow go against his own nature. That makes no sense at all. We have a sin nature that God gave us just as he gave Satan hers. If we are to believe biblical B.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever lied to someone?  God hasnt.  Have you ever stolen something? God hasnt..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> See above where I show God as the father of lies.
> 
> Your last could be correct but God has coveted another man's woman and that is as good as stealing as God put the coveting commandment with other possessions that we are not to covet. That is quite close to stealing and a sin.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Without God, there is no foundation for right and wrong, which is why people invest so much time in convincing themselves God doesnt exist, so they can do as they please.. But sin will always lead to negative affects on ones own life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> What did the great sin of genocide lead to in terms of negatives for God?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Simply disagreeing with God isnt an argument against His existence.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> True but it might show how unworthy he is and should not be called God.
> 
> 
> 
> As a Christian, its impossible to prove or disprove god to a person.  The Bible states clearly that God hides himself, God hates the proud, the wicked and those who reject Him, so He removes all sense of His presence from that person, allowing them to fall into a deception, this is something the person initiates, not God.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yet Jesus/God was chastised for hanging with the publicans and saying he came for the sick, not the well, which refutes what you put.
> 
> 
> 
> you simply cannot imagine the joy of salvation,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> What were you condemned for and did the penalty fit the crime or sin that God imposed on you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and know true joy..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> How can you have true joy when you are following a genocidal God who, in the King David story even tortures a baby for 6 days before finally killing it? All because of anger with the father.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The profundity of what Ive just said to you is truly incomprehensible, I simply cannot put it into words adequately enough..  Once it happens, you will say the same things I am, and you will likely be hated for it.. As I am.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> If you are hated it is because you follow a God who does not deserve respect.
> 
> Gnostic Christians have been telling you that forever and that is why Christians have always hated Gnostic Christians.
> 
> That and Christians could not refute our moral positions while we could make mince meat of yours.
> 
> Regards
> DL
Click to expand...


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Jesus couldnt be more thorough about why with this very topic, He quite literally explains the failure of Christianity, but He himself doesnt identify these people as real believing Christians, its a title they carry only, its what the new testament is about, Paul himself warns of falling from true saving grace, getting caught up in false christs, of the which there are many people are deluded with.
> 
> "These people honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me"  -Jesus Christ, our Lord



Well, it is rather meaningless words like grace that tend to throw people off. 

I agree that Jesus and the bible warned us often about the corrupt religions and governments.

Those who follow Jesus yet remain in Christianity are adding to the corruption that Christianity is.



RDP89 said:


> I would argue that Jesus is not the way.



Make your argument and I will try to deal with it.

Note though that I am selling Jesus' esoteric mystical way and not the Christian way that says I have to accept substitutionary atonement and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty as somehow being good justice.

If that way is what you would argue against, do not bother because I agree that mainstream Christianity is quite wrong.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

With all due respect Gnostic Bishop, we could never initiate a conversation because i believe you adhere to texts which have no actual validity, you likely feel the same way about me and we could never agree on anything because of it.

Im a Christian who holds that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, our creator, and will judge all men who are not Him.

If you do not hold that view of Jesus, then discourse is pointless, I couldnt budge on that, forfeiting my salvation is not a possibility.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Those who follow Jesus yet remain in Christianity are adding to the corruption that Christianity is



Yeah, thats definitely true of many Christians, but within Christendom there has always been dissent from this by those who have an intimate relationship with Christ.  The problem is we arent very well liked by the churches, yet they claim to believe what we do, perhaps when its convenient for them..

Christ warned about the condition of the Church in the last days, its just par for the course and time is every closer to running out, especially for the Church if they dont turn back to Christ.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Yeah, thats definitely true of many Christians, but within Christendom there has always been dissent from this by those who have an intimate relationship with Christ.  The problem is we arent very well liked by the churches, yet they claim to believe what we do, perhaps when its convenient for them..
> 
> Christ warned about the condition of the Church in the last days, its just par for the course and time is every closer to running out, especially for the Church if they dont turn back to Christ.



Christianity cannot suddenly start to tell the truth after so many years of lying. Although some are trying.






Can the church keep it's sheeple after they begin to see all the lies they have been fed for so long?

Free thinkers would walk out of such a church but sheeple are not really free thinkers so they might just accept the new set of facts without faith and recognize that they are only I the church to appease their tribal natures.

IOW, they would have to admit that they were lying to themselves.

That might be too hard to take for the average self-deceiving Christian.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Christianity cannot suddenly start to tell the truth after so many years of lying.



I dont know what you mean by that, I hold an apostolic view of Christianity that likely isnt adhered to by most of Christendom.  I learned of Christ in the Bible and was given His Spirit through prayer, I was not raised in the Church, I was a philosopher with an agnostic view of Christianity most of my life, save for the last 5 years.

Ive tried to warn Churches to turn back to Christ, I dont think they can at this point, but Christ and Paul both warned of this so its not something that surprises me..


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> With all due respect Gnostic Bishop, we could never initiate a conversation because i believe you adhere to texts which have no actual validity, you likely feel the same way about me and we could never agree on anything because of it.
> 
> Im a Christian who holds that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, our creator, and will judge all men who are not Him.
> 
> If you do not hold that view of Jesus, then discourse is pointless, I couldnt budge on that, forfeiting my salvation is not a possibility.



Understood.

Many like you will ignore how satanic your God is so as to be able to ride your scapegoat Jesus into heaven.

Keep your eye on that prize and ignore Satan reeling you in thanks to your satanic morals and wanting to shed your own responsibility for your own sins and have someone suffer in your immoral steed.

Your God, Satan, will be please that you ignore common moral sense. and these moral words.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The sonshall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear theiniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, andthe wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put todeath because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because oftheir fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The sonshall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for theiniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself,and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Regards
DL


----------



## swilow

AddictRecon said:


> you do not hold that view of Jesus, then discourse is pointless, I couldnt budge on that, forfeiting my salvation is not a possibility.



How would a discussion forfeit your salvation? Are you concerned that you might change your mind? Or do you think Jesus/god would consider a discussion as doubting him?


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> I dont know what you mean by that, I hold an apostolic view of Christianity that likely isnt adhered to by most of Christendom.  I learned of Christ in the Bible and was given His Spirit through prayer, I was not raised in the Church, I was a philosopher with an agnostic view of Christianity most of my life, save for the last 5 years.
> 
> Ive tried to warn Churches to turn back to Christ, I dont think they can at this point, but Christ and Paul both warned of this so its not something that surprises me..



What B.S.

You just showed that you follow the apostles creed and plan to ride your scapegoat Jesus into heaven in my other post while running from justifying your love of a genocidal son murdering God.

When the going gets tough, you fold, so I am not surprised that others would ignore your chastisement as your morals suck to high heaven.

Best to ignore me as I do not have any respect for those who follow a satanic God.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Understood.
> 
> Many like you will ignore how satanic your God is so as to be able to ride your scapegoat Jesus into heaven.
> 
> Keep your eye on that prize and ignore Satan reeling you in thanks to your satanic morals and wanting to shed your own responsibility for your own sins and have someone suffer in your immoral steed.
> 
> Your God, Satan, will be please that you ignore common moral sense. and these moral words.
> 
> Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The sonshall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear theiniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, andthe wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
> 
> Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put todeath because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because oftheir fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
> 
> Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The sonshall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for theiniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself,and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Thats what I am talking about, I believe Jesus is God, and that the god you are selling has deceived you, and is in fact lucifer himself, the adversary.   Discourse isnt possible because we disagree fundamentally.

Quoting the bible wont help your case, lucifer himself used scripture to attempt to sway Christ, what would stop you from doing the same..


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

swilow said:


> How would a discussion forfeit your salvation? Are you concerned that you might change your mind? Or do you think Jesus/god would consider a discussion as doubting him?



Our friend, like most Christians, runs from any discussions that look like they might go towards a discussion on morals.

They know that they are following immoral tenets but they do not care.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> How would a discussion forfeit your salvation? Are you concerned that you might change your mind? Or do you think Jesus/god would consider a discussion as doubting him?



Im just saying that you represent the 'fringe of the fringe' in Christian theology, and I think you have no credibility.  I also think your beliefs are entirely false..   So I could let you spin your wheels I suppose, but it would be like me wasting time to have someone convince me of unicorns, its just not gonna happen.

Your job is to attempt to sway me from the truth, but you are gonna have to find a christian who is far less grounded for that, my loyalty is to Jesus Christ, our Lord, Savior, Creator, and God.  Id die before I denied Him..


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Our friend, like most Christians, runs from any discussions that look like they might go towards a discussion on morals.
> 
> They know that they are following immoral tenets but they do not care.
> 
> Regards
> DL




See this is an intimidation, by claiming I am running, you are attempting to push a button that directly correlates with my pride, you are hoping that I will resort to the same and immediately give you a platform to demonstrate your supposed intellectual fortitude, satan tries this all the time..  Id be feeding your ego, and I honestly would rather share my testimony about how Christ saved my life, opened my eyes, and how He can do it for you.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Thats what I am talking about, I believe Jesus is God, ..



Show where you find the words that say that God can die.

Case closed.

If you want to chat, I opened many moral issues above where we might be able to discuss civilly without having to believe, or not, in the supernatural.

You wish to deflect into that because you are a poor apologist for reality and want to keep talking of unreal things.

Like a God being able to die. How droll if your thinking was not so morally corrupted.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> What B.S.
> 
> You just showed that you follow the apostles creed and plan to ride your scapegoat Jesus into heaven in my other post while running from justifying your love of a genocidal son murdering God.
> 
> When the going gets tough, you fold, so I am not surprised that others would ignore your chastisement as your morals suck to high heaven.
> 
> Best to ignore me as I do not have any respect for those who follow a satanic God.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Ive never heard of an 'apostles creed', but I do believe in the authority of the apostles as commissioned by Christ, if thats what you mean.

For example I believe that Paul speaks with the authority granted by God.  Peter as well..


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> See this is an intimidation, by claiming I am running, you are attempting to push a button that directly correlates with my pride, you are hoping that I will resort to the same and immediately give you a platform to demonstrate your supposed intellectual fortitude, satan tries this all the time..  Id be feeding your ego, and I honestly would rather share my testimony about how Christ saved my life, opened my eyes, and how He can do it for you.



Sure. Deflect to anything but an intelligent discussion of your corrupted genocidal God loving morality.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Show where you find the words that say that God can die



Not sure what you mean..  Jesus Christ is the "Image of the invisible God" as it is written, the avatar, the fleshly aspect of His ontology.

That is all that died, and it wasnt even permanent.. God is a Spirit, Gods ontology is far too complex for you or I to fully understand, but we can know things specifically about Christ, for example that he died and rose from the dead.


not rocket science, well, ok, for trinitarians i suppose this is rocket science, but I dont see it that way. The texts are clear on the matter.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.

Now you even want to select only some of the apostles while ignoring the wisdom of other ones.

Go away unless you want to actually get on topic. 
I have a lot better apologists to available that are actual apologists and not whatever you are.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Sure. Deflect to anything but an intelligent discussion of your corrupted genocidal God loving morality.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Anything else you like to add?


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Not sure what you mean..  Jesus Christ is the "Image of the invisible God" as it is written, the avatar, the fleshly aspect of His ontology.
> 
> That is all that died, and it wasnt even permanent.. God is a Spirit, Gods ontology is far too complex for you or I to fully understand, but we can know things specifically about Christ, for example that he died and rose from the dead.
> 
> 
> not rocket science, well, ok, for trinitarians i suppose this is rocket science, but I dont see it that way. The texts are clear on the matter.



You are right that the scriptures are clear.

 
 
Isaiah 56:11) "They areshepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way,each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for theday of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORDoccupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9)& (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between therighteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:18)


Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away thekey of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering inye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through yourtradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

You go ahead and follow your traditional thinking. But do not speak of following Jesus while you plan to ride him instead of doing as he asked. 

That you pick up your own burdens and follow him. Not do as you are doing and laying your burden onto an innocent man.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Anything else you like to add?



Only if you even attempt to speak of why you are a genocidal God.

If not. I am done with you and your satanic morals.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Now you even want to select only some of the apostles while ignoring the wisdom of other ones



So you are one of those guys, using dishonest philosophical practices to make yourself seem superior.

So lets look at the facts.. I named a few apostles, not all.

I could easily have named them all, it wouldnt matter, I believe all the apostles carry the authority given by Christ.


Instead of trying to win a conversation that hasnt taken place, why not actually try to approach it from a place where you arent on defense so much..  it will get you alot further.


I have a few rules..  I wont resort to ad hom attacks, name calling, philosophical fallacies, and I wont claim anything I cant readily cite.


If you can play by those rules, and calm down a little, Id be willing to share what I know with you.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> You are right that the scriptures are clear.



Yes, they are.. The very Jesus you claim doesnt exist was prophesied, by Isaiah.. and I have everything in my life to thank because of Him.

Isa 53:1  Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 
Isa 53:2  For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. 
Isa 53:3  He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 
Isa 53:4  Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 
Isa 53:5  But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. 
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 
Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Only if you even attempt to speak of why you are a genocidal God.
> 
> If not. I am done with you and your satanic morals.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Satan rebelled against God, he attempted to sway Christ from His purpose, and since I align with Christ, and reject satan as morally reprehensible, saying that I have satanic morals is not only incorrect, but impossible.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Only if you even attempt to speak of why you are a genocidal God



I am not a genocidal God, which Ive never been accused of being, I dont know why you would insist I would say I was, Im human, lower than God, who is higher than us in every way.


----------



## RDP89

AddictRecon said:


> Satan rebelled against God, he attempted to sway Christ from His purpose, and since I align with Christ, and reject satan as morally reprehensible, saying that I have satanic morals is not only incorrect, but impossible.



But why do you think any of that actually happened? Seems very highly unlikely if you ask me.


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> But why do you think any of that actually happened? Seems very highly unlikely if you ask me.



I believe the criteria for belief regarding the bible has been met by the evidences presented to me.  No one ever proved anything to me, but I believe the evidence is enough to warrant belief, so I believe the stories about satan being a morally reprehensible figure who actively undermines and attempts to dissuade Gods followers is true as well.

Why do you think its unlikely?  its not falsifiable, so how did you come to that conclusion?


----------



## RDP89

AddictRecon said:


> I believe the criteria for belief regarding the bible has been met by the evidences presented to me.  No one ever proved anything to me, but I believe the evidence is enough to warrant belief, so I believe the stories about satan being a morally reprehensible figure who actively undermines and attempts to dissuade Gods followers is true as well.
> 
> Why do you think its unlikely?  its not falsifiable, so how did you come to that conclusion?


What "evidence"? There's absolutely no empirical evidence supporting anything in the Bible. And why do I think it's super unlikely? Well, alot of it goes completely against all the scientific facts we've discovered.


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> What "evidence"? There's absolutely no empirical evidence supporting anything in the Bible. And why do I think it's super unlikely? Well, alot of it goes completely against all the scientific facts we've discovered.



What are you talking about? No empirical evidence of what?  

How is something supernatural, unlikely?  Scientifically speaking its not falsifiable, meaning if even if it is true, science cant prove it.. But yet somehow youve determined that something that cant even be tested for likelihood is somehow 'unlikely'... Can you imagine if scientific inquiry was done like that..  "Well bob, I couldnt actually test to see if it was true, but Im gonna slap a big ole fat 'unlikely' on it anyways."


How did you defy scientific inquiry and do something no human has been able to do within the scientific community...  because you sir are about to be very very wealthy...


----------



## RDP89

AddictRecon said:


> What are you talking about? No empirical evidence of what?
> 
> How is something supernatural, unlikely?  Scientifically speaking its not falsifiable, meaning if even if it is true, science cant prove it.. But yet somehow youve determined that something that cant even be tested for likelihood is somehow 'unlikely'... Can you imagine if scientific inquiry was done like that..  "Well bob, I couldnt actually test to see if it was true, but Im gonna slap a big ole fat 'unlikely' on it anyways."
> 
> 
> How did you defy scientific inquiry and do something no human has been able to do within the scientific community...  because you sir are about to be very very wealthy...



Well it seems you have things very backwards. I don't have to prove anything as false. The onus of proof is on the one claiming something to be true. As far as evidence you said something about based on the evidence presented to you, you believe the Bible to be true, I simply stated the fact that there isn't any empirical evidence supporting the Bible's version of things.


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> Well it seems you have things very backwards. I don't have to prove anything as false. The onus of proof is on the one claiming something to be true.



You havent disagreed with me yet, and I never said I could prove anything to you...  

You just came in here talking about how unlikely it was, but you cant ascribe a likelyhood to something that cant be tested.  Scientific inquiry is a natural philosophy, but you are making it seem like you can use natural philosophy to test supernatural theory, which isnt possible..

How did you come to your conclusion, and please, dont shift this on to me, clear up what you are wanting to know, and how you came to these conclusions..


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> I simply stated the fact that there isn't any empirical evidence supporting the Bible's version of things.



So there is no evidence of Cyrus of Persia? Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon?  Antiochus?  Pontius Pilate?  Tiberius Augustus?  Xerxes of Persia?  The conquest of the Grecian empire?  Are you gonna tell me next that the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem never existed?  

Have you actually read the bible, or are you dogmatically refusing to acknowledge how much truth that has already been proven, empirically I might add..

Care to walk back your statements because Im seriously trying to avoid embarrassing you right now but you arent making it easy...


----------



## vortech

Jesus picked his nose.
Is that at least one thing we can all agree on?


----------



## RDP89

AddictRecon said:


> So there is no evidence of Cyrus of Persia? Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon?  Antiochus?  Pontius Pilate?  Tiberius Augustus?  Xerxes of Persia?  The conquest of the Grecian empire?  Are you gonna tell me next that the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem never existed?
> 
> Have you actually read the bible, or are you dogmatically refusing to acknowledge how much truth that has already been proven, empirically I might add..
> 
> Care to walk back your statements because Im seriously trying to avoid embarrassing you right now but you arent making it easy...



I was speaking more to the ridiculous stories of creation, noah's ark,etc. I realize some of the people and places actually existed, doesn't make the whole thing any more plausible.


----------



## RDP89

AddictRecon said:


> You havent disagreed with me yet, and I never said I could prove anything to you...
> 
> You just came in here talking about how unlikely it was, but you cant ascribe a likelyhood to something that cant be tested.  Scientific inquiry is a natural philosophy, but you are making it seem like you can use natural philosophy to test supernatural theory, which isnt possible..
> 
> How did you come to your conclusion, and please, dont shift this on to me, clear up what you are wanting to know, and how you came to these conclusions..



There is no "supernatural theory", to be considered a theory, there has to be some evidence backing it up.


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> There is no "supernatural theory", to be considered a theory, there has to be some evidence backing it up.



What proof or evidence of God do you need?  I know you wont answer that, but the question is there if you want to try..  



RDP89 said:


> I was speaking more to the ridiculous stories of creation, noah's ark,etc. I realize some of the people and places actually existed, doesn't make the whole thing any more plausible.



Ok, so you admit there are things in the bible that we can prove empirically.  Just so everyone is clear you are in fact backpeddling on your original statement where you said, and I quote..._*"I simply stated the fact that there isn't any empirical evidence supporting the Bible's version of things."*_

I like how you word everything to make it seem like its something its not.   For example, you say "I realize 'some' of the people in the bible existed' when in reality, you cant show me one person in the bible who didnt exist, you literally have nothing to offer the class, but you come in here making absolutist statements about stuff you have absolutely no clue about.

I bet you havent even studied out the evidence for creation, and if you said you did that would be interesting because I would love pick your brain.. See, I used to take the biased mainstream 'science only' approach, but then I started looking at other evidence, just to make sure I wasnt missing something..  I went back to the debates where I wrote off the Christian proponents even before the debate began and started listening to what they were saying..  You have a one sided view because youve only investigated one side, but you lack a complete picture because you feel somehow that science and God are mutually exclusive, when that is a lie..  Science gets things wrong all the time, and it changes to adapt.. God is never wrong, God is never changing and truth is something that isnt malleable..

Nah, your issue isnt that you want evidence you arent willing to search out the evidence we already have, thats just intellectual laziness, bias and dogma at its finest.

You wanna go after people for their beliefs but you cant even support the beliefs you have yourself.


----------



## swilow

AddictRecon said:


> Im just saying that you represent the 'fringe of the fringe' in Christian theology, and I think you have no credibility.  I also think your beliefs are entirely false..   So I could let you spin your wheels I suppose, but it would be like me wasting time to have someone convince me of unicorns, its just not gonna happen.
> 
> Your job is to attempt to sway me from the truth, but you are gonna have to find a christian who is far less grounded for that, my loyalty is to Jesus Christ, our Lord, Savior, Creator, and God.  Id die before I denied Him..



I was just asking you a question, I think you confused me with Gnostic Bishop.


----------



## Fresco

Please f*ck off with that religion bullsh*t!!!!!

Thank you, and goodnight


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> I was just asking you a question, I think you confused me with Gnostic Bishop.



I did indeed, you are correct..


----------



## swilow

vortech said:


> Jesus picked his nose.
> Is that at least one thing we can all agree on?



I've no doubt at all


----------



## vortech

he reason this tizzy isn't going anywhere is because each of you believes the other has become corrupted by Satan's deception, and because of this judgement, both of you sound clouded by the pride of your beliefs and the investments of your emotions. Part of being humble is admitting we do not know an absolute up from down, and in this debate one of your ups is the other's down. Maybe the real truth is somewhere in the middle? Maybe through the divisions of Christianity is where Satan hides, and if that is the case both of you are eating right of his red hand. Suspend your deeply-held views momentarily, release the fear that hearing another perspective will somehow corrupt your religious purity, and then a constructive conversation can happen.

Maybe it would help to start with common beliefs and explore one place where a divergence occurs and why.


----------



## AddictRecon

vortech said:


> he reason this tizzy isn't going anywhere is because each of you believes the other has become corrupted by Satan's deception, and because of this judgement, both of you sound clouded by the pride of your beliefs and the investments of your emotions. Part of being humble is admitting we do not know an absolute up from down, and in this debate one of your ups is the other's down. Maybe the real truth is somewhere in the middle? Maybe through the divisions of Christianity is where Satan hides, and if that is the case both of you are eating right of his red hand. Suspend your deeply-held views momentarily, release the fear that hearing another perspective will somehow corrupt your religious purity, and then a constructive conversation can happen.
> 
> Maybe it would help to start with common beliefs and explore one place where a divergence occurs and why.



Without resorting to argumentum ad populem, the facts are that his beliefs represent the most fringe of the fringe, he posts in places like this because there arent many Christians here to hold his feet to the fire.

His positions cant be supported biblically and the picture of Christ that he is attempting to paint is a false one. Is it prideful to state the truth? Nope..


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> So you are one of those guys, using dishonest philosophical practices to make yourself seem superior.
> 
> So lets look at the facts.. I named a few apostles, not all.
> 
> I could easily have named them all, it wouldnt matter, I believe all the apostles carry the authority given by Christ.
> 
> 
> Instead of trying to win a conversation that hasnt taken place, why not actually try to approach it from a place where you arent on defense so much..  it will get you alot further.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I try to lose such discussions, nit win them. You just dislike that I make you earn your points.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a few rules..  I wont resort to ad hom attacks, name calling, philosophical fallacies, and I wont claim anything I cant readily cite.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I can site many things and get biblical quotes for evidence but that does not make things real.
> 
> You talk of what you believe of Jesus but those are not facts of Jesus. Like you giving apostles the authority from Jesus. Jesus has not even been proven to have existed so all you have given is the same B S that the church has propagated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you can play by those rules, and calm down a little, Id be willing to share what I know with you.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


What you know would be good. What you assume or believe from other sources, like what I show above, is just B S.



AddictRecon said:


> Without resorting to argumentum ad populem, the facts are that his beliefs represent the most fringe of the fringe, he posts in places like this because there arent many Christians here to hold his feet to the fire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I seek Christians so that I might correct their view that a genocidal son murderer should be adored.
> 
> There are fewer and fewer Christians about because they cannot argue intelligently for their beliefs nor can they justify following their vile God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> His positions cant be supported biblically and the picture of Christ that he is attempting to paint is a false one. Is it prideful to state the truth? Nope..
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


There is a ton of biblical support as given in the O.P.

You attack the messenger and ignore the message because you know you cannot refute what I put.

It is not prideful to state the truth, but you show your pride by lying about the scriptures.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Yes, they are.. The very Jesus you claim doesnt exist was prophesied, by Isaiah.. and I have everything in my life to thank because of Him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you are such a slug that you have yet to accomplish anything on your own.
> 
> And you are proud of that. Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AddictRecon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Satan rebelled against God, he attempted to sway Christ from His purpose, and since I align with Christ, and reject satan as morally reprehensible, saying that I have satanic morals is not only incorrect, but impossible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Why did your omnipotent all knowing God create what he knew would rebel against him?
> 
> Do you really think that Satan would try to change the mind of a God which scriptures say never changes his mind?
> 
> You follow Yahweh. Let's see if his morals are God-like or Satan-like, --- and whose morals you follow.
> Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs youhave done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them,--- is immoral. Right?
> 
> So tell us please, who is more likely to see justice in the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty? God or Satan?
> 
> 
> 
> AddictRecon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not a genocidal God, which Ive never been accused of being, I dont know why you would insist I would say I was, Im human, lower than God, who is higher than us in every way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> That was my bad spelling/grammar. You are not a genocidal God, but scriptures say that you are to emulate God which is why you support a genocidal God. Right?
> 
> 
> 
> AddictRecon said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the criteria for belief regarding the bible has been met by the evidences presented to me.  No one ever proved anything to me, but I believe the evidence is enough to warrant belief, so I believe the stories about satan being a morally reprehensible figure who actively undermines and attempts to dissuade Gods followers is true as well..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> You are quite a literal reader. Should you really trust a book that, if read literally, forces you to believe in talking serpents and donkeys and a water walking God?
> 
> Regards
> DL
Click to expand...


----------



## RDP89

AddictRecon said:


> What proof or evidence of God do you need?  I know you wont answer that, but the question is there if you want to try..
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so you admit there are things in the bible that we can prove empirically.  Just so everyone is clear you are in fact backpeddling on your original statement where you said, and I quote..._*"I simply stated the fact that there isn't any empirical evidence supporting the Bible's version of things."*_
> 
> I like how you word everything to make it seem like its something its not.   For example, you say "I realize 'some' of the people in the bible existed' when in reality, you cant show me one person in the bible who didnt exist, you literally have nothing to offer the class, but you come in here making absolutist statements about stuff you have absolutely no clue about.
> 
> I bet you havent even studied out the evidence for creation, and if you said you did that would be interesting because I would love pick your brain.. See, I used to take the biased mainstream 'science only' approach, but then I started looking at other evidence, just to make sure I wasnt missing something..  I went back to the debates where I wrote off the Christian proponents even before the debate began and started listening to what they were saying..  You have a one sided view because youve only investigated one side, but you lack a complete picture because you feel somehow that science and God are mutually exclusive, when that is a lie..  Science gets things wrong all the time, and it changes to adapt.. God is never wrong, God is never changing and truth is something that isnt malleable..
> 
> Nah, your issue isnt that you want evidence you arent willing to search out the evidence we already have, thats just intellectual laziness, bias and dogma at its finest.
> 
> You wanna go after people for their beliefs but you cant even support the beliefs you have yourself.



Once again, where is this supposed "evidence" of creation? It doesn't exist. What proof or evidence of God do I need?? Well how about any at all, that would be great for a start.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> You attack the messenger and ignore the message because you know you cannot refute what I put.
> DL



You havent attempted to answer anything Ive said, just gave a few anecdotal responses that dont clear anything up..  This is my experience with gnostics, they never actually attempt to answer for what they claim..


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> So you are such a slug that you have yet to accomplish anything on your own.



Attacking my character because you cant defend your views isnt an answer



Gnostic Bishop said:


> And you are proud of that. Wow.



Im thankful, please dont misquote me or put words in my mouth.



Gnostic Bishop said:


> Why did your omnipotent all knowing God create what he knew would rebel against him?



This is a question atheists ask..  the fact you are asking it while claiming knowledge disquised in the veneer of Christiantiy is rather telling..  God created us out of the abundance of His love. If you deny sentient creatures have a will of their own, including the ability to reject the very God that created us, then you are struggling with questions that tell me you know nothing of our theology, yet attempt to criticize it.



Gnostic Bishop said:


> Do you really think that Satan would try to change the mind of a God which scriptures say never changes his mind?



Satan couldnt change the mind of God, thats part of why he was deluded with himself.  Satan was Gods most anointed angel, yet he sinned.. God knew this would happen, which is why the redemptive plan for grace and salvation through Christ was also foreknown by God, its not something God was surprised by. God is omniscient, there is nothing that can be known that God doesnt know.

Search the scritpures, the answers you seek are there. 

Eze 28:13  You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. 
Eze 28:14  You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. 
Eze 28:15  You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, *till unrighteousness was found in you*. 
Eze 28:16  In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 
Eze 28:17  *Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor*. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. 
Eze 28:18  By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. 
Eze 28:19  All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever.” 

Isa 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 
Isa 14:13  *For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God*: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 
Isa 14:14 * I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High*. 
Isa 14:15  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 
Isa 14:16  Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, 




Gnostic Bishop said:


> You follow Yahweh. Let's see if his morals are God-like or Satan-like, --- and whose morals you follow.
> Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs youhave done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them,--- is immoral. Right?



Jesus Christ is YHWH incarnate

Exo_3:14  God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘*I AM has sent me to you*.’”

Joh_8:58  Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, *before Abraham was, I am.*”


Isa 9:6  For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, *Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace*. 
Isa 9:7  Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. *The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this. 

*Joh_10:30 * I and the Father are one.”

*
Joh_14:6  Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. *No one comes to the Father except through me.*


*
*


Gnostic Bishop said:


> So tell us please, who is more likely to see justice in the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty? God or Satan?



The only person you are claiming God punished who was innocent was Jesus Christ, but Christ Himself is God incarnate, His will is Gods will, so that the redemptive plan of salvation from sin would be accomplished.

Isa 53:1  Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 
Isa 53:2  For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. 
Isa 53:3  *He was despised and rejected by men*, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 
Isa 53:4  Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 
Isa 53:5  But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. 
Isa 53:6  *All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all*. 
Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 
Isa 53:8  By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 
Isa 53:9  And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 
Isa 53:10  *Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him*; he has put him to grief; *when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring*; he shall prolong his days; *the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand*. 
Isa 53:11  Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; *by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous*, and he shall bear their iniquities. 
Isa 53:12  Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. 

So yes, satan, the father of lies, the adversary, the murderer, will meet justice when the appointed time comes.



Gnostic Bishop said:


> That was my bad spelling/grammar. You are not a genocidal God, but scriptures say that you are to emulate God which is why you support a genocidal God. Right?



We imitate what is good, God is good. 3Jo 1:11



Gnostic Bishop said:


> You are quite a literal reader. Should you really trust a book that, if read literally, forces you to believe in talking serpents and donkeys and a water walking God?



I understand its your job to dissuade me from the living Word of God, but its not going to work, and yes, because I trust fully in Christ, I trust His written Word as well..  Serpent is one of many metaphors for satan, and satan in fact can speak.  Read Isaiah above if you are still confused as to who he is.  Do I believe in talking donkeys? no, did God open the mouth of a donkey and make it speak to rebuke Balaam? yes..   All things were created by Jesus Christ, the Word, who is God..  Walking on water really is a trivial matter, not that impressive compared to the more impressive act of creation.


Please dont parade yourself around these forums pretending to be some follower of Christ, you simply cherry pick what you like about Christ and throw away the rest.  Gnosticism has been, is and always will be antithetical to Christianity, its new age philosophy trying to be like Christianity without the submission to the will of our Creator, who is Jesus Christ, God incarnate, and the everlasting Father.


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> Once again, where is this supposed "evidence" of creation? It doesn't exist. What proof or evidence of God do I need?? Well how about any at all, that would be great for a start.



Or you reject the evidence for what it is, writing it off as something other than evidence in order to keep yourself from having to confront it?

I could give you the bible as evidence, but you would say that isnt evidence, so that wont work for you.  I personally think there are philosophical arguments that are good evidence, like the Kalam cosmological argument, though I still think that could be simplified.

Ill be up front with you, the reason I asked you what evidence for God would suffice for you is because I know you cant answer that question without shooting yourself in the foot..  The reality is that if you start telling me what it would take to convince you, you would have to end the conversation with me because you would realize that what you are looking for only God himself can give you, making discourse with me pointless..  I am not God, I am not His event coordinator, if you want answers, do like I did and start a dialogue with Him.

If God has distanced Himself from you, I dont have the ability to force belief on you, God is far greater than I am, and I dont have the ability to usurp Him, or His decisions.


----------



## RDP89

AddictRecon said:


> Or you reject the evidence for what it is, writing it off as something other than evidence in order to keep yourself from having to confront it?
> 
> I could give you the bible as evidence, but you would say that isnt evidence, so that wont work for you.  I personally think there are philosophical arguments that are good evidence, like the Kalam cosmological argument, though I still think that could be simplified.
> 
> Ill be up front with you, the reason I asked you what evidence for God would suffice for you is because I know you cant answer that question without shooting yourself in the foot..  The reality is that if you start telling me what it would take to convince you, you would have to end the conversation with me because you would realize that what you are looking for only God himself can give you, making discourse with me pointless..  I am not God, I am not His event coordinator, if you want answers, do like I did and start a dialogue with Him.
> 
> If God has distanced Himself from you, I dont have the ability to force belief on you, God is far greater than I am, and I dont have the ability to usurp Him, or His decisions.



Yeah, I don't think you're familiar with what "evidence" means. Why the fuck wouldn't this god show herself? I mean come on, is that so fucking hard for an omnipotent, omniscient being?


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> Yeah, I don't think you're familiar with what "evidence" means



Attacking my ability to reconcile what evidence means doesnt make your position correct, it just shows me you reject the evidence I am willing to share before I have even done so. 

But if it helps, Ill give you the definition of evidence that I subscribe to, because as a philosopher, of the many positions one could take, I am a staunch evidentialist, meaning I will review any evidence without bias and form my opinions after I review it.  I am not a presuppositionalist and I tend to argue against that philosophy.

_*Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.*_



RDP89 said:


> Why the ___ wouldn't this God show Himself? I mean come on, is that so _____ hard for an omnipotent, omniscient being?



He did, they nailed Him to a cross..



Why are you on defense?  You think it bothers me that someone is a muslim, or Hindu? Why get upset simply because you dont believe what I believe?  Relax a bit, sheesh..  If you cant have a rational discussion without getting emotional, then I can assure you I simply wont engage with you, if you are however interested in polite discourse, then Ill spend as much time discussing this with you as you want. Fair?


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

RDP89 said:


> Once again, where is this supposed "evidence" of creation? It doesn't exist. What proof or evidence of God do I need?? Well how about any at all, that would be great for a start.



You are talking to a guy who cannot form a decent apology for his God. That is quite apparent from his deflections into the supernatural where he can hide his ignorance and lack of logic, reason and especially his poor morals that have him adoring a genocidal son murdering God.

To be like him, you -----






Faith, as our friend has, is the faith of fools.

That is why he cannot argue or justify his beliefs.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> You havent attempted to answer anything Ive said, just gave a few anecdotal responses that dont clear anything up..  This is my experience with gnostics, they never actually attempt to answer for what they claim..



This from you who deflects and hides behind the supernatural.

Go suck up to your genocidal son murdering God and leave moral people to follow more moral avenues and Gods.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> This from you who deflects and hides behind the supernatural.
> 
> Go suck up to your genocidal son murdering God and leave moral people to follow more moral avenues and Gods.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Why are you so upset?  Instead of getting emotional and throwing a tantrum, back up your claims..


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> That is why he cannot argue or justify his beliefs.
> 
> Regards
> DL



I just laid out a rather concise, cited argument that you apparently wont touch, lets face it, if you had a rebuttal, you would have submitted it.

Your faith is far greater than mine, at least I have something to rest my faith on, yours is entirely in your head, its why gnosticism is widely regarded as nonsense, you guys never actually put up a defense of your beliefs, just subjective ramblings..


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> I just laid out a rather concise, cited argument that you apparently wont touch, lets face it, if you had a rebuttal, you would have submitted it.
> 
> Your faith is far greater than mine, at least I have something to rest my faith on, yours is entirely in your head, its why gnosticism is widely regarded as nonsense, you guys never actually put up a defense of your beliefs, just subjective ramblings..



This from someone who believes in talking serpents and donkeys and who runs for the hills the moment morality is mentioned. 

How droll.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Why are you so upset?  Instead of getting emotional and throwing a tantrum, back up your claims..



If you ever want an honest chat without introducing all your fantasy garbage, I am here for you.


You will have to start explaining why you adore a genocidal son murdering God first though.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> If you ever want an honest chat without introducing all your fantasy garbage, I am here for you.
> 
> 
> You will have to start explaining why you adore a genocidal son murdering God first though.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Im a bible believing Christian, if thats a problem for you then we are most likely at an impasse.

The bible is resolute on the matter, and if you dont like that, then your qualms are with the Bible, not its adherents. 


Youve literally offered nothing to challenge it, which is worse than a concession, you forfeit the discussion entirely..


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> This from someone who believes in talking serpents and donkeys and who runs for the hills the moment morality is mentioned.
> 
> How droll.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Regardless of my beliefs, you still havent presented a counter argument, in fact, you keep making my argument about me instead of addressing the argument, its cowardly in my opinion.

Im perfectly content with my beliefs, at least I can defend them.  Its better than what you are doing, which is cherry picking the bible and then disagreeing with the very texts you are claiming to get your information from..  Your position is incoherent and self contradictory at best, and utter nonsense at worst.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> who runs for the hills the moment morality is mentioned.



I ground my morality in the Jesus Christ of the bible, not the false christ you paint, cherry picking aspects you want and discarding the rest.

The bible resolutely teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, a subject you cant argue because its resolutely supported with scripture.


You arent omniscient, nor could you be, you are the created, not the creator, lower than God.  

True knowledge comes from the acceptance of this.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Regardless of my beliefs, you still havent presented a counter argument, in fact, you keep making my argument about me instead of addressing the argument, its cowardly in my opinion.
> 
> Im perfectly content with my beliefs, at least I can defend them.  Its better than what you are doing, which is cherry picking the bible and then disagreeing with the very texts you are claiming to get your information from..  Your position is incoherent and self contradictory at best, and utter nonsense at worst.



I know you are content to follow a genocidal son murdering prick of a God. 

As to the rest, it is un-evidenced as you do not show the quote you are talking about or the argument against it.

IOW, you are a piss poor apologist.



AddictRecon said:


> I ground my morality in the Jesus Christ of the bible, not the false christ you paint, cherry picking aspects you want and discarding the rest.
> 
> The bible resolutely teaches that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, a subject you cant argue because its resolutely supported with scripture.
> 
> 
> You arent omniscient, nor could you be, you are the created, not the creator, lower than God.
> 
> True knowledge comes from the acceptance of this.



Tell us, did Jesus say he came to serve or be served?

Does scriptures say that God does not change or that he can change?

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

You will have to start explaining why you adore a genocidal son murdering God first though.

 Regards
 DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> You will have to start explaining why you adore a genocidal son murdering God first though.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Your premise begins with an assertion, namely that you think I believe God is a 'genocidal son murdering God'.. The only way to respond to that is if, and only if I though God was in fact a 'genocidal son murdering God', which of course I do not.

God did not murder His son, as that would mean Christs death was not in fact meant to save mankind, but rather to serve Gods selfish needs, which I obviously reject because its just bad theology and no where taught in scripture.


Your argument is the very definition of attacking a strawman, you are intently and purposely misrepresenting my position in order to attack it.  There is nothing to defend because you refuse to acknowledge what I actually believe, and instead are creating a fictitious narrative and then attacking that.  A narrative that I do not subscribe to.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> I know you are content to follow a genocidal son murdering prick of a God.
> As to the rest, it is un-evidenced as you do not show the quote you are talking about or the argument against it.
> IOW, you are a piss poor apologist.



Why do you keep misrepresenting my position with vacuous assertions and then attack the misrepresentation youve fabricated?  Im tempted to simply report you as you are violating the principles of this forum.

The basis for my theological position is scripture, but when I cite it, you refuse to provide a valid counter argument and instead attack me with insults, attack my character and name calling, again, something I am tempted to report you for.



Gnostic Bishop said:


> Tell us, did Jesus say he came to serve or be served?
> 
> Does scriptures say that God does not change or that he can change?
> 
> Regards
> DL



Jesus came to serve, this is written, but this is also in the context of His incarnation in the flesh, Jesus is no longer incarnated in the flesh, He sits at the throne of God, in the Spirit.  It was the entire point of His ministry, something you conveniently leave out of your argument.  You give half facts and cherry pick what you want to support your position, but refuse to acknowledge the entire body of facts.

God does not change, His incarnation was forknown, something scripture resolutely teaches and something that you refuse to acknowledge, even in the face of irrefutable evidence.

Im not here to prove anything, Im sharing my understanding, but you wont even engage the subject, rather you are throwing a fit, resorting to name calling and generally being an unkind person in general.

If you cant handle someone challenging your position, you are in the wrong place.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> God does not change, .



That is all I asked and not your delusional follow through.

Now.

That being the case, what makes you think God/Jesus would change from servant to a master who demands that we serve him and follow his commandments?

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Are you suggesting that Noah's flood is only a myth and that God did not use that genocide against man?

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> That is all I asked and not your delusional follow through.
> 
> Now.
> 
> That being the case, what makes you think God/Jesus would change from servant to a master who demands that we serve him and follow his commandments?
> 
> Regards
> DL



John 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.

God never changed, His own image is merely incarnated in the flesh, it doesnt change who God is..


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Thanks for ignoring my question.

Seems we are done.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Are you suggesting that Noah's flood is only a myth and that God did not use that genocide against man?
> 
> Regards
> DL



Gen 6:12  And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
Gen 6:13  And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

So as you can see, God being perfect, was within His own authority to destroy that which is not perfect, and its more than not being perfect, men became corrupt, and as a result were consumed with violence.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Thanks for ignoring my question.
> 
> Seems we are done.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Or I gave you an answer and you have no rebuttal.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Gen 6:12  And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
> Gen 6:13  And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
> 
> So as you can see, God being perfect, was within His own authority to destroy that which is not perfect, and its more than not being perfect, men became corrupt, and as a result were consumed with violence.



Your assumptions of God perfection are belied by scriptures.

Now.

What is more perfect in your eyes? A God who uses genocide and kills, or a God who cures all those he thinks afflicted with evil?

Remembering of course that God can do either kill or cure.

No free will B.S. either as killing someone is sure screwing up their free will to live and not die.

Before you say you cannot judge perfection and your God, 
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what isgood.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

A R

As an aside. Have you read this and what doe it tell you of the perfection of your God.

Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1  Therefore leaving the principles of thedoctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again thefoundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, andof laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternaljudgment.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Or I gave you an answer and you have no rebuttal.



I must have missed it.

My question was on masters and servants and you posted nothing that had those words in it.

As I said, it seems we are done if you are not going to do anything but defect while saying you are answering.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> A R
> 
> As an aside. Have you read this and what doe it tell you of the perfection of your God.
> 
> Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1  Therefore leaving the principles of thedoctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again thefoundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, andof laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternaljudgment.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Repentance, faith, baptisms, these are all entry level doctrines most Christians never seem to graduate from, its all they talk about and struggle to understand.
We leave the elementary doctrines of the faith, moving on to perfection, just as Hebrews teaching.  More advanced doctrinal understanding comes with growth.

Heb 5:12  *For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, *
Heb 5:13  *for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.*


2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
Heb 4:12  For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 
1Co 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 
1Co 1:19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> I must have missed it.
> 
> My question was on masters and servants and you posted nothing that had those words in it.
> 
> As I said, it seems we are done if you are not going to do anything but defect while saying you are answering.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Seek and you shall find..

Php 2:10  That *at the name of Jesus every knee should bow*, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 
Php 2:11  And that *every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord*, to the glory of God the Father. 

Do masters bow to their servants?


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Seek and you shall find..
> 
> Php 2:10  That *at the name of Jesus every knee should bow*, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
> Php 2:11  And that *every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord*, to the glory of God the Father.
> 
> Do masters bow to their servants?



No. Masters do not die for their salves either and that is what Jesus did which makes him, as he said, our servant.

Now you are even denying what Jesus said.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Repentance, faith, baptisms, these are all entry level doctrines most Christians never seem to graduate from, its all they talk about and struggle to understand.
> We leave the elementary doctrines of the faith, moving on to perfection, just as Hebrews teaching.  More advanced doctrinal understanding comes with growth.
> 
> Heb 5:12  *For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, *
> Heb 5:13  *for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.*
> 
> 
> 2Ti 3:16  All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness
> Heb 4:12  For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
> 1Co 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
> 1Co 1:19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.



Those scriptures were written, I think, to have you move away from scriptures and you just send yourself right back into them.

Here is why what I quoted sends you out of scriptures.

Isaiah 56:11) "They areshepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way,each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for theday of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORDoccupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9)& (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between therighteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:1

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away thekey of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering inye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through yourtradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Lawyers refers to biblical writers.

Thanks for the aside. I think we can leave it. 

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Those scriptures were written, I think, to have you move away from scriptures and you just send yourself right back into them.
> 
> Here is why what I quoted sends you out of scriptures.
> 
> Isaiah 56:11) "They areshepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way,each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for theday of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORDoccupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9)& (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between therighteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:1
> 
> Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away thekey of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering inye hindered.
> 
> Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through yourtradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
> 
> Lawyers refers to biblical writers.
> 
> Thanks for the aside. I think we can leave it.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Or deeper into the scriptures, as the writer suggests.

Heb 5:12 *For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 
Heb 5:13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.


*Gnostics like to spin the exact opposite of what the bible teaches.. But then you arent really studied in the bible, which is painfully apparent..


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> No. Masters do not die for their salves either and that is what Jesus did which makes him, as he said, our servant.
> 
> Now you are even denying what Jesus said.
> 
> Regards
> DL



So you agree, that Jesus, in service to YOU, died for you, after all, you see Christ in the Gospel accounts as a servant, as do I.  Tell me, where is your servant now? Fetch him for me..  Since you have dominion over him.

I just want to say thanks for the opportunity to share my faith and all the scripture the Bible has to offer on the matter, you really are a blessing in disguise.. Be that as it may, your words are in error, again, because you take things out of context and misrepresent what the bible teaches..

Yes, Christ came to serve, and while He was serving, *He was also worshiped*.  A master is not above serving, in fact we call that leading by example in the modern vernacular.

The worship of Christ was indicative of who He was.   

Mat_2:11  And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
Mat_14:33  And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Mat_28:9  And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
Mat_28:17  And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.

Did Christ serve?  Yep
Did Christ die serving? Yep
Did Christ rise from the dead? Yep
Was Christ formally addressed as God after He rose?Yep

Joh_20:28  Thomas answered him, “_*My Lord and my God*_!”

What Christ prophesied to come in the form of a servant? Yep (no need to quote scripture, you already agree)


----------



## Fresco

How the fuck do I unsubscribe from this retarded thread????


----------



## DoctorMolecule

Fresco said:


> How the fuck do I unsubscribe from this retarded thread????


Self control, do not respond


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> So you agree, that Jesus, in service to YOU, died for you, after all, you see Christ in the Gospel accounts as a servant, as do I.  Tell me, where is your servant now? )



Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.

Can you not find your own Jesus mind within yourself?

Why not? All you need do is ignore your traditional dogmatic garbage as scriptures tell you to do and open your heart.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away thekey of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering inye hindered. 
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through yourtradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Or deeper into the scriptures, as the writer suggests.
> 
> Heb 5:12 *For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
> Heb 5:13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
> 
> 
> *Gnostics like to spin the exact opposite of what the bible teaches.. But then you arent really studied in the bible, which is painfully apparent..



Nothing quite like ending with an insult.

You thanked me elsewhere for posting and but I will ignore you quickly if you do not watch the filth coming from your mouth.

As to spinning the opposite of what the bible says, I sometimes have to to bring it's moral back to the original that Christianity reversed in the first place.

Care to speculate on the reasons for the following reversal that Christians have done?

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

Regards
DL


----------



## Xorkoth

You're one to talk.  Why must you be so aggressive and confrontational?  It makes me think you just like riling people up by any means necessary.  You called someone a child in a derogatory way just a short time ago in a different thread, in response to them disagreeing with you in a quite friendly way.  Hypocrisy is an unattractive quality, and it doesn't tend to engender faith in your message or intentions.


----------



## vortech

"Stone them! Stone them all!!" *passes the peace pipe*


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Xorkoth said:


> You're one to talk.  Why must you be so aggressive and confrontational?  It makes me think you just like riling people up by any means necessary.  You called someone a child in a derogatory way just a short time ago in a different thread, in response to them disagreeing with you in a quite friendly way.  Hypocrisy is an unattractive quality, and it doesn't tend to engender faith in your message or intentions.



Simple. I try to speak for the oppressed victims of religions.

Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed intointolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grownthemselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoralways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works anddeeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as hispeople, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudlycontinuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
 
If you are not aggressive and confrontational with those who are still contributing to the harm religions do, you might wonder why.

You criticize me for what I post, yet here you are using a post only to criticize instead of speaking to the issues of the O.P.

What would you have done in the days of the Inquisitions that were used to kill off Gnostic Christians and others who did not agree with the orthodox church? Tell those who did fight the Inquisitors to not criticize them too much?

Regards
DL


----------



## Xorkoth

Ah, the travails of posting on a web forum.  The truth is, I just find your condescending tone towards people and aggressive content to be offputting.  I respect that you're trying to get a message across, and I even agree with it more or less in many cases.  But surely you've heard the saying that you catch more flies with honey?  When you conduct yourself in aggressive and insulting ways, people stop listening, and you're just swinging the pendulum because it creates more negativity in the opposite direction which only further empowers the opposition to feel more strongly their way.  To me the goal is to stop it swinging at all.  I was criticizing you, yes, because when you lead with personal attacks it detracts from your argument.  Calling someone a child is unmistakably condescending and no one respects the message when it is being condescended to them.  Criticism is different from personal attacks.  Nowhere have I denigraded you.  Or if I have in some other thread, I apologize and was probably just aggravated, we all make mistakes.

If I'm being honest I usually have a hard time responding to your OPs because they read like sensationalist news headlines, the kind that lead to people in the comments section telling each other how wrong the other one is.  It doesn't provoke an atmosphere of even discourse, but instead one in which people lash out back and forth because they feel offended.  I'm not trying to offend you with this post, it's just my feeling about it over time.  If you want better discussion in your threads, maybe adjust your tact a bit.

If this were the inquisition times and people were trying to kill you, I would feel differently, but no one is trying to kill you (or so I assume anyway).  Maybe it would help to frame your arguments in a way that highlights what gnostic christianity could do in a positive sense, instead of focusing on inflaming people who don't agree with you.  Be an ambassador.  Otherwise you're part of everyone else who is trying to ram their views down the throats of nonbelievers.


----------



## DoctorMolecule

^ the passages from mark and Luke are completely out of context, and ignore what the Jewish leaders were doing in using their oral Torah above the written Torah: extra rules for cleanliness and rituals, making donations to the temple above taking care of your parents etc. Christ said he is the fulfillment of the written law. Logos made flesh. Christ came to midrash the Torah. Even while being crucified he is singing psalms. Is Jesus our master or our servant. At first the apostles see him as master, then Jesus washes their feet, then Jesus calls them his friends. If your master is your friend he will give his life for you


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> As to spinning the opposite of what the bible says, I sometimes have to to bring it's moral back to the original that Christianity reversed in the first place.



Anyone can take the bible out of context to make it say what they want, which I believe is what you are doing on this forum, primarily.

I specifically set my mind to studying the scriptures, and the things you say make zero sense.  Its like you read a few passages of the bible out of context and then defined the rest of the bible based on those bad contextual extrapolations.  

Its not only dishonest, but reprehensible in terms of an honest critique.  From what ive read of your posts, it shows how little of the bible youve actually read or seem to understand, and I honestly dont think youve read that much of it.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Can you not find your own Jesus mind within yourself?



I dont want to invent my 'own Jesus', I have the one and only Jesus, upon confession of my sins.

It is written.

Rom 8:10  But* if Christ is in you*, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 
2Co 4:6  For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” *has shone in our hearts* to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 
2Co 4:7  But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 
Gal 1:15  But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 
Gal 1:16  was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 
Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ. *It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me*. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 
Gal 4:19  my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth *until Christ is formed in you*! 
Eph 3:17  so that *Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith*—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 
2Th 1:10  when he comes on that day to be _*glorified in his saints*_, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 

Col 1:27  To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, _*which is Christ in you*_, the hope of glory.


----------



## Jabberwocky

AddictRecon said:


> Jesus Christ is YHWH incarnate



I so fundamentally disagree with this statement that I'm confused as to how you could make it. Is this what Christians really believe? I've never read the bible but I've read lots of quotes from it and listened to lots of Christians talk very attentively. I don't think GB is a good example of the Gnostic Christian perspective having read many of his posts and scratched my head and I very much enjoy the Gnostic perspective from what little I've read about it. No offense intended GB. If you've ever experienced a fraction of the love that is available to us in every living breathing moment I think you'd be skeptical about the OT's attribution of YHWH as God. I can dig up some quotes that make this explicit if you like. 

Does Jesus ever explicitly state YHWH is God in the NT? If not perhaps there is a bit of extrapolation going on.


----------



## swilow

Isn't Yahweh the biblical god though?


----------



## Shrooms00087

Can you prove that you are not God incarnated through the various resources of physics that give light to your reflection?


----------



## AddictRecon

levels said:


> Is this what Christians really believe?



Fundamentally, yes.

*Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”


Hebrews 2:17-18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15-16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”


John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”*


----------



## Jabberwocky

A lot of really great quotes, some of which even I have seen before. I draw inspiration from them. Christ the consciousness and Jesus the man are both important to me and nobody likes to feel like their beliefs are blasphemous. Only Matthew 1:23 directly addresses my question though. All others give support to that assertion in some form. Is Immanuel = Yahweh? Is that what the O.T says? Thanks for taking the time to address my questions.


----------



## AddictRecon

levels said:


> A lot of really great quotes, some of which even I have seen before. I draw inspiration from them. Christ the consciousness and Jesus the man are both important to me and nobody likes to feel like their beliefs are blasphemous. Only Matthew 1:23 directly addresses my question though. All others give support to that assertion in some form. Is Immanuel = Yahweh? Is that what the O.T says? Thanks for taking the time to address my questions.



In Christian doctrine, God (YHVH) is a spirit, formless, omnipresent, but expresses Himself when interfacing with His creation, that Image is Jesus, Christ.  Immanuel means "God with us", being that Christ is Gods incarnate Image, or interface that for a time, dwelt among men.  Consider this from Hebrews, _Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven._

For example, Christ is the one sitting on the throne in Ezekiels vision, Same with the throne vision in Revelation.
Christ is the Word, He is the narrator when you see God speaking in the OT.  Thats why alot of what Christ says in the NT is actually Him quoting Himself from the old Testament, because He is the author of the OT.
He is the "Angel of the Lord", the preincarnate Christ in the OT, or the image of God. Consider Colosians. _Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation.

_Jesus, or God, predates all known creation, because there was nothing that was created that wasnt created by Him, (Joh 1)_
_
The image of God, which was incarnated in the flesh, is Jesus Christ, but there is so much more to what and who Jesus Christ is and represents, being God, His ontology is ultimately unknowable, because it would require Godhood to comprehend it, which none of us are, there is only one creator, and we are the created._

_What confuses people is that when Gods image was incarnated in the flesh, to make atonement for sin, when He himself had no sin, people saw a man, a human, and assume that Christ is ontologically like us, not realizing that Christ is greater than anyone could ever imagine._
__
_You and many others may or may not disagree, which is fine, but this what we believe, and that belief is what initiates the communication between God and those who rely on Him.  The problem with belief is that is must be genuine, most people I encounter have an incorrect understanding of who Christ is, and therefore do not have the correct character of Christ, which never initiates Christ speaking to them directly.  Christ is a separate, sentient agent who communicates with His followers, He isnt some concept, or level of consciousness one can attain to, thats just not possible.  Newage and Gnosticism like to borrow from Christianity, but they are selling a false christ from what I have seen.


----------



## Jabberwocky

> Christ is a separate, sentient agent who communicates with His followers, He isnt some concept, or level of consciousness one can attain to, thats just not possible. Newage and Gnosticism like to borrow from Christianity, but they are selling a false christ from what I have seen.



I still think this is debatable having read your reply which is soundly based in scripture. You presuppose continuity between O.T and N.T which again is an assumption that must be carefully evaluated. Unless of course the N.T says explicitly "I am Jesus Christ, God of the O.T, Yahweh incarnate" or something like that in which case I'll back down. I don't know enough to say. 

If we assume YHWH is a demiurge god, which Gnostics believed before Jesus Christ was born ( see Nag Hammadi scrolls), then Jesus comes and saves us from that belief and reveals a much kinder, compassionate God that leads us towards salvation. Your narrative is mostly accurate except is doesn't confuse Gods. That's a narrative I can embrace. I can find support for this in many different text that are old. Maybe not O.T old but old nonetheless. We also must question how the Bible was assembled as a collection of written works to the exclusion of others.

    New age is also a term that must be wielded carefully. The new age deception is real. As a blanket term to dismiss anything non biblical it is like trump calling facts fake news. It doesn't evaluate the various narratives which are numerous on a case-by-case basis.


----------



## AddictRecon

levels said:


> I still think this is debatable having read your reply which is soundly based in scripture. You presuppose continuity between O.T and N.T which again is an assumption that must be carefully evaluated. Unless of course the N.T says explicitly "I am Jesus Christ, God of the O.T, Yahweh incarnate" or something like that in which case I'll back down. I don't know enough to say.



I think the evidence for the continuity between the OT and NT, the deity of Christ, and the case for Christ as YHVH incarnate is incomprehensibly overwhelming.  I could write books on the subject using only the Bible as a reference. (Man already have)

There can be no mistake, from an internal critique of the canonical books of the OT and NT, Jesus Christ is God the Father, YHVH incarnate, and one really only needs one verse to prove this (Isa 9:6) but I could cite scriptural evidences ad nauseam.   Jesus Christ is also the fulfillment of OT prophecy concerning His declination into the flesh, this again cannot be argued, it is taught resolutely, there is no challenge on the matter, and the only time Christians are challenged on this is by the layperson who lacks fundamental, and principled biblical understanding, which comes from study. 

Gnostics overwhelmingly are ignorant to the fact that the 'nice guy' image of Christ comes intertwined with the very Christ who is also going to judge the earth, remember, Christ is the one who decides who goes to hell (Joh 5:22), He is also the one who will destroy the wicked from the face of the earth, sound familiar? Because its not the first time Hes done it.


----------



## Jabberwocky

> “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
> ― Richard Dawkins



Never was much of a fan of Richard Dawkins, but that quote pretty well sums it up. Let's just hope then that Jesus Christ stays nice if he's YHWH as you say. That's why I'm not Christian. Still love Christ though. Spent years reading A Course in Miracles, which I know, I know, is blasphemous, but that Christ is a shining example of love and forgiveness. Thanks again for the quotes and stuff.

Here's a few I like:



> ″You are the work of God, and His work is wholly lovable and wholly loving.
> 
> This is how a man must think of himself in his heart, because this is what he is.” III.3-4





> “God is not partial.
> 
> All His children have His total Love, and all His gifts are freely given to everyone alike.”





> When I [Jesus] said, “I am with you always,” I meant it literally.
> 
> I am not absent to anyone in any situation.
> 
> Because I am always with you, you are the way and the truth and the light.
> 
> You did not make this power, any more than I did.
> 
> It was created to be shared and therefore cannot be meaningfully perceived as
> 
> belonging to anyone at the expense of another.
> 
> Such a perception makes it meaningless by eliminating or overlooking its real and only meaning.


----------



## swilow

I would have thought Christians would seek to distance themselves from that OT malevolent bully. The OT deity is indefensible imo, any worship of such is the worship of all those things Dawkins (also not a huge fan) details. I think its right to try an counteract and vehemently criticize any who support this monster. 

Jesus, otoh, seems to value gentleness and love, and while I don't believe he was divine, I can get behind those teachings. The world has always needed those qualities. Now, perhaps, more than ever.


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> I would have thought Christians would seek to distance themselves from that OT malevolent bully. The OT deity is indefensible imo, any worship of such is the worship of all those things Dawkins (also not a huge fan) details. I think its right to try an counteract and vehemently criticize any who support this monster.
> 
> Jesus, otoh, seems to value gentleness and love, and while I don't believe he was divine, I can get behind those teachings. The world has always needed those qualities. Now, perhaps, more than ever.



So essentially, you think Jesus, who claims the authority of and submission to the God of the OT, should be "vehemently criticized for supporting this monster".

But in the same breath you say Jesus is a great guy.

Care to explain?


----------



## AddictRecon

levels said:


> Never was much of a fan of Richard Dawkins, but that quote pretty well sums it up. Let's just hope then that Jesus Christ stays nice if he's YHWH as you say. That's why I'm not Christian. Still love Christ though. Spent years reading A Course in Miracles, which I know, I know, is blasphemous, but that Christ is a shining example of love and forgiveness. Thanks again for the quotes and stuff.
> 
> Here's a few I like:



I have no clue what those quotes are from, but Jesus never said any of that..


----------



## Jabberwocky

Jesus Christ is alive and well. My sister prayed to Jesus to take away her cigarette addiction and next day it was gone like it never happened. My sister was pretty hopelessly hooked. She tried so many times to quit and failed but after that prayer she has been 3+ years tobacco free now. I heard you had a similar experience. To me that's awesome. To me that constitutes proof within ones personal experience. 

     When I read A Course in Miracles which was written by Jesus and is the source of those quotes I feel the same beauty and wonder I feel when reading some of the most profound quotes in the N.T or The Aquarian Gospel. How do I know I'm not being deceived? I can feel it. I can experience it. Christ is a consciousness you can experience and work with. It has a resonance like all things. When I read quotes from the O.T about YHWH I feel like I'm witnessing the thoughts of a deranged bully and I feel sick to my stomach. So if Jesus Christ is alive and well, why is anything written outside the Bible necessarily a forgery? What constitutes _your_ proof? If Jesus made an apparition before you and told you he wasn't Yahweh, would you tell him that's impossible, 'cause the Bible say's otherwise? So just as a materialist will want proof by way of experiment, a logician through soundness of argument I seek consistency through my own experience of Christ as it manifests in my life experientially. That serves me well. Not all Christians disagree with me on this. 

Anyways, I looked up Isa 9:6, and well there is the whole mistranslation to contend with relating to el Gibbor, which if honestly considered, well, it casts a shadow of doubt on your claim. Ask a Jew or a Muslim and they'll give you a different explanation for what that quote means so not sure what to make of that.



> https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/2815/to-whom-does-el-gibbor-refer-in-isaiah-9





> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pele-joez-el-gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom





> http://www.muslimdebate.org/polemics/christianity/128-does-isaiah-9-6-call-the-messiah-god


----------



## RDP89

levels said:


> Jesus Christ is alive and well. My sister prayed to Jesus to take away her cigarette addiction and next day it was gone like it never happened. My sister was pretty hopelessly hooked. She tried so many times to quit and failed but after that prayer she has been 3+ years tobacco free now. I heard you had a similar experience. To me that's awesome. To me that constitutes proof within ones personal experience.


I'm sorry, but this is so completely ridiculous. So you think that for some reason jesus would choose to answer your sister's tobacco addiction prayers, while at the same time ignoring the prayers of people praying for say, a sick suffering child to be healed? If that was the case I would have to say "fuck you jesus".


----------



## Jabberwocky

I'm not an expert on prayers for sick and suffering children. I mean, I've heard of sick and suffering children going to faith healers and experiencing healings. That's a thing right. Happens everyday. Not sure if you believe it or not. That said, I agree with you that there have been prayers for sick and suffering children that went unanswered. Not sure why but theres a big picture I can't fully see. You'd have to get to the bottom of that yourself with a little research. Personally, I'm happy for my sister and find comparisons of worthiness to receive the benefits of prayer to be a bit reactionary.


----------



## AddictRecon

levels said:


> When I read A Course in Miracles which was written by Jesus



I have no clue what you are talking about.. there is no 'course in miracles' written by Jesus Christ. There is no 'Aquarian Gospel' either, the synoptic gospels are Matthew, Mark, and Luke, with the fourth Gospel account of John.

You might be into some newage stuff, but that has nothing to do with Christianity.


----------



## vortech

What about the Gospel of Thomas? That is some potent stuff right there! It may be non-canonical, but it speaks more strongly to me than much of the NT.


----------



## AddictRecon

vortech said:


> What about the Gospel of Thomas? That is some potent stuff right there! It may be non-canonical, but it speaks more strongly to me than much of the NT.



The Gospel of Thomas is widely recognized as a fake, and what it teaches is antithetical to Christianity.  In fact, most would say its the first attempt to discredit Christianity. Fortunately, the early Church leaders recognized it as a fraudulent attempt to poison Christianity. Gnosticism is antithetical to Christianity, and it shares the same status as any other cult mentality in our view.

_Bart Ehrman argues the Gospel of Thomas is a 2nd__ Century Gnostic text based on the lack of any reference to the coming Kingdom of God and return of Jesus. The earliest leaders of the Church also recognized the Gospel of Thomas was a late, inauthentic, heretical work. Hipploytus identified it as a fake and a heresy in “Refutation of All Heresies” (222-235AD), Origen referred to it in a similar way in a homily (written around 233AD), Eusebius resoundingly rejected it as an absurd, impious and heretical “fiction” in the third book of his “Church History” (written prior to 326AD), Cyril advised his followers to avoid the text as heretical in his “Catechesis” (347-348AD), and Pope Gelasius included the Gospel of Thomas in his list of heretical books in the 5th century._  (J. Warner Wallace)


----------



## Jabberwocky

You're clearly non interested in engaging in a friendly debate with me on this topic. You restate my own perspective and admissions as non-existent when I've taken the time to frame it very clearly and you restate your own as being representative of Christianity and you ignore any challenge at the scripture level. I'm not interested in continuing this discussion but thanks again



			
				levels said:
			
		

> Spent years reading A Course in Miracles, which I know, I know, is blasphemous, but that Christ is a shining example of love and forgiveness. Thanks again for the quotes and stuff.
> 
> Here's a few I like:





			
				addictRecon said:
			
		

> I have no clue what those quotes are from, but Jesus never said any of that..





			
				levels said:
			
		

> That's why I'm not Christian. Still love Christ though.





			
				addictRecon said:
			
		

> You might be into some newage stuff, but that has nothing to do with Christianity.





			
				addictRecon said:
			
		

> There can be no mistake, from an internal critique of the canonical books of the OT and NT, Jesus Christ is God the Father, YHVH incarnate, and one really only needs one verse to prove this (Isa 9:6) but I could cite scriptural evidences ad nauseam.





			
				levels said:
			
		

> I looked up Isa 9:6, and well there is the whole mistranslation to contend with relating to el Gibbor, which if honestly considered, well, it casts a shadow of doubt on your claim. Ask a Jew or a Muslim and they'll give you a different explanation for what that quote means so not sure what to make of that.





			
				addictRecon said:
			
		

> _silence_


----------



## RDP89

levels said:


> I'm not an expert on prayers for sick and suffering children. I mean, I've heard of sick and suffering children going to faith healers and experiencing healings. That's a thing right. Happens everyday. Not sure if you believe it or not. That said, I agree with you that there have been prayers for sick and suffering children that went unanswered. Not sure why but theres a big picture I can't fully see. You'd have to get to the bottom of that yourself with a little research. Personally, I'm happy for my sister and find comparisons of worthiness to receive the benefits of prayer to be a bit reactionary.



I'm just saying, if you believe that god answers prayers, how do you explain that people prayed for people to be healed, but they still suffered on anyway? god is picking and choosing who to help by this line of thinking. Also, if you believe god created everything, then isn't "god " responsible for their suffering in the first place??


----------



## Jabberwocky

RDP89 said:


> I'm just saying, if you believe that god answers prayers, how do you explain that people prayed for people to be healed, but they still suffered on anyway? god is picking and choosing who to help by this line of thinking. Also, if you believe god created everything, then isn't "god " responsible for their suffering in the first place??



Just so we're clear, my perspective is not a Christian one. I do believe in Christ as I've already stated. Let me share how I see things. God is not interventionist. We have free will. It is the most sacred and abused aspect of our existence as it appears now. God isn't going around picking and choosing who lives and dies in my narrative. After the separation from God we were given all the tools to return back to God. There are many agendas at play that do not want this to happen. I can't answer your question specifically because each person is a multidimensional consciousness existing in many realities simultaneously. I'm not sensitive enough to see that picture. Some people are or can work with other beings that are. I've met them and interacted with them. They can hone in on blockages at any level. If prayer is not having the desired effect there is a reason for it. Doesn't mean I know what it is. There are people out there that can find out though.


----------



## RDP89

If God is not an interventionist, doesn't that make prayer completely pointless?(other than as a psychological tool to help one feel better) And if God doesn't intervene, then how did god take away your sister's nicotine addiction?


----------



## swilow

AddictRecon said:


> So essentially, you think Jesus, who claims the authority of and submission to the God of the OT, should be "vehemently criticized for supporting this monster".
> 
> But in the same breath you say Jesus is a great guy.
> 
> Care to explain?



Does Jesus claim to support that tyrant though and its beliefs? His teachings are quite different. I guess I was being generous, for me I totally disregard Jesus and the OT god too. Its simpler. 

You seem to imagine that your truth is the only truth. Hence, you continually have people here actively cease discussion with you because there is really no wiggle room in your views. Its like talking to a brick wall. You don't wish to discuss but impose your certainty on others. Its pretty tiresome. Here's a thought; maybe you're wrong? Maybe you've been tricked into supporting an evil god. If its the OT god, you are supporting petty evil. 

The OT god seems remarkably jealousy and childish, with intensely human concerns. It makes me think this god is really just a construct of humans.


----------



## Jabberwocky

My sister prayed to Jesus Christ, son of God. I'm not aligned with the Christian perspective outlined here that God and Christ are entirely interchangeable. In a sense Christ is God, but Christ did not create God. With that prayer she accomplished a number of things 1) she set her free will to a clearly stated goal. 2) she opened herself up to receive the the help of Christ and all forces aligned with Christ be they angels, guides, guardians, ascended masters, etc, etc who look after humanity while respecting free will 3) she called upon one who can dispel darkness. It's a powerful act. You don't have to believe it but that's how I understand it. I'm not the only one saying stuff like this BTW. We're not alone. We have a whole support system. Prayer is the medium by which we express this.


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> Does Jesus claim to support that tyrant though and its beliefs? His teachings are quite different. I guess I was being generous, for me I totally disregard Jesus and the OT god too. Its simpler.
> 
> You seem to imagine that your truth is the only truth. Hence, you continually have people here actively cease discussion with you because there is really no wiggle room in your views. Its like talking to a brick wall. You don't wish to discuss but impose your certainty on others. Its pretty tiresome. Here's a thought; maybe you're wrong? Maybe you've been tricked into supporting an evil god. If its the OT god, you are supporting petty evil.
> 
> The OT god seems remarkably jealousy and childish, with intensely human concerns. It makes me think this god is really just a construct of humans.



Jesus incarnated through the line of David, meaning He was a Jew in observance of the torah, or law of YHVH, more importantly, Jesus also gives praise, glory and honor to YHVH as the only living God, so according to your statement, you should have nothing but criticism for Christ.  Most of what Christ teaches is found in the OT, but you have to invest time and study to know this, otherwise you have an incomplete view of the biblical canon.

There is only one truth that all truth is contingent on, so to be specific, and I am not lying, yes, I know the Truth, and that Truth is Christ Jesus, the foundation of our reality. That doesnt mean there arent other truths, just that there are no truths that exist that challenge this fundamental Truth and that fundamental Truth, is Christ.  As to whether Im wrong or not, I obviously do not believe I am, nor do I have a reason to think I am, the evidence of what Christ does in my life is that profound, to think I could be wrong would be contrary to my faith.  Thats like saying the sun might not actually rise in the morning.  I have faith the sun will rise and no reason to think it wont.

But something you should have noticed about me.. I never claim to be able to prove anything to anyone, Im here sharing my understanding. While Im certainly not the only one here expressing my 'truth', Ive noticed alot of others here doing the same, yet its only a problem when I do, specifically on the topic of Jesus, which I find interesting.

I used to have alot of the same hostile views towards the bible, and even less nice things to say about Jesus, you guys are actually pretty nice compared to the person I was, but that was before Christ made the impact on my life that he did, I used to call Christians close minded, but it was me who was close minded.  I think alot of Christians are arrogantly attacking people who dont believe as they do, which makes my life a bit harder because when I do share my understanding of Christ, its with people who have been victimized by bad examples of Christians.

Talking about Christ here might net me some criticism, but I honestly have more 'enemies' in the pulpits, men who claim to follow Christ, but live otherwise..


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> I'm just saying, if you believe that god answers prayers, how do you explain that people prayed for people to be healed, but they still suffered on anyway? god is picking and choosing who to help by this line of thinking. Also, if you believe god created everything, then isn't "god " responsible for their suffering in the first place??



Mar 11:24  Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 
Mar 11:25  And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”

I think the problem with a lot of prayers is that they go unanswered because of lack of belief, which God requires, faith in Him, a show of trust. 

Jas 1:6  But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 
Jas 1:7  For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;


----------



## theMerovingian

Why did Pontius Pilate always pick up the bad and negative association as he did offer to the people who thus thy wish to crucify barabbas or jesus and they elected to crucify the son of the carpenter but did he not give the people the choice and they elected to save the murderer did they not ??

Well thats the feeling and association I get off the Roman Governor but he gave the option to the people and Jesus was one of the Jews but not of the high priest class so probably suffered from class antagonism than personal animosity.

Class warfare alive and well before the industrial age in late Antiquity. Maybe Marx was'nt all so wrong after all. Who Knows, I dont care cause thats the beauty is'nt it if something is suppossed to be answer but have so many holes in it's theory then what are you to believe ? I'm probably wrong but I'm like a dog chasing ball in the world if you get me. Thats the beauty.

Peace.


----------



## AddictRecon

levels said:


> You're clearly non interested in engaging in a friendly debate with me on this topic. You restate my own perspective and admissions as non-existent when I've taken the time to frame it very clearly and you restate your own as being representative of Christianity and you ignore any challenge at the scripture level. I'm not interested in continuing this discussion but thanks again



I didnt know you were trying to initiate a debate, did you have a premise you were willing to cite for?  Throwing a bunch of quotes as counter points doesnt really tell me you are trying to debate me, Id rather have a cordial informal discussion.

But if you have a point, make it and Ill do my best to examine what it is.


----------



## AddictRecon

theMerovingian said:


> Why did Pontius Pilate always pick up the bad and negative association as he did offer to the people who thus thy wish to crucify barabbas or jesus and they elected to crucify the son of the carpenter but did he not give the people the choice and they elected to save the murderer did they not ??



Exactly, I place the motive for Christs death squarely on the Jews, Pilate was just the means to have it executed.  Remember, the Pharisees wanted it to look like it was Pilates doing because it was the Passover and the jews who followed Christ would have revolted against the Pharisees for having Christ stoned to death, especially after they just named Christ the King, which was a direct challenge to the pharisees, who had control over public opinion for the most part, that is why they wanted Pilate to get involved.  Pilate didnt want a revolt either, and his decree for Christs death would not be challenged, otherwise the jews would have to contend with the Roman authorities.

As far as why Pilate might be in trouble with God, He knew Christ was innocent and still allowed it to happen, knowing full well he could have stopped it entirely.  Also, Pilates wife pleaded with him not to have anything to do with Christs crucifixion because she had some sort of dream, which the bible doesnt go into detail about.

Mat 27:19  Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, _*his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream.”*_


----------



## psy997

RDP89 said:


> If God is not an interventionist, doesn't that make prayer completely pointless?(other than as a psychological tool to help one feel better) And if God doesn't intervene, then how did god take away your sister's nicotine addiction?



God isn't an interventionist when it comes to free will. However, this point matters not if you continue holding onto the idea of God as as preached by mainstream Christianity. That is an omnipotent, all powerful being, consciously watching over all we do. In that framework, the idea of God being interventionist makes sense. However, that is not what God is. God is a creative principle, God is a singularity that expanded and manifested into a million and one infinite ways of being, perceiving, and vibrating, moving, changing, and evolving. God is a force, and an energy, and the center of all that is - as is experienced by humans and by other sentient beings. In this framework, prayer is a tool with which one may connect to that which is within them, and ultimately that which is them. The divine light within is god, although we are not god him/itself. We are but a piece, and yet, we also hold the whole. All reflections and microcosms hold the entirety of the macrocosm. In this way prayer be used to consciously summon the divine creative principle and co-create, bringing into existence or possibility of existence what was before unthought of or deemed impossible.

Thus, the classic "If God is real, all loving, and all powerful, why does he allow suffering?" question is rendered obsolete, null, and void. It is to ask why man engages in self-destructive behaviors, why man hurts himself and others. There is an order, but this order does not have to be followed. It may be more harmonious to learn and live in this order, but it is not necessary nor is it forced. As levels mentioned, free will is one of the most basic tenets of this existence.


----------



## AddictRecon

levels said:


> Anyways, I looked up Isa 9:6, and well there is the whole mistranslation to contend with relating to el Gibbor, which if honestly considered, well, it casts a shadow of doubt on your claim. Ask a Jew or a Muslim and they'll give you a different explanation for what that quote means so not sure what to make of that.



Unless you are redefining words..

The hebrew  "gibbôr gibbôr" or גִּבֹ   גִּבּוֹר is defined as 'Powerful or by implication warrior, tyrant: - champion, chief, X excel, giant, man, mighty (man, one), strong (man), valiant man  ' which is the descriptor for the following word 'êl or אֵל in the hebrew, which by definition is 'God' or deity.

Gibbor is a descriptor for how powerful "el" is.. nothing more.  Claiming otherwise is not really a strong argument imo.. I have the hebrew in front of me and can readily translate it, verbatim.
Isa 9:6  לםרבה המשׂרה ולשׁלום אין־קץ על־כסא דוד ועל־ממלכתו להכין אתה ולסעדה במשׁפט ובצדקה מעתה ועד־עולם קנאת יהוה צבאות תעשׂה־זאת׃ 

Isiah prophesies of Christ elsewhere, in case there is any doubt.

The entire chapter of Isaiah 53 is about Christ and Isaiah 7:14.

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, *the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 





*


----------



## theMerovingian

AddictRecon said:


> Exactly, I place the motive for Christs death squarely on the Jews, Pilate was just the means to have it executed.  Remember, the Pharisees wanted it to look like it was Pilates doing because it was the Passover and the jews who followed Christ would have revolted against the Pharisees for having Christ stoned to death, especially after they just named Christ the King, which was a direct challenge to the pharisees, who had control over public opinion for the most part, that is why they wanted Pilate to get involved.  Pilate didnt want a revolt either, and his decree for Christs death would not be challenged, otherwise the jews would have to contend with the Roman authorities.
> 
> As far as why Pilate might be in trouble with God, He knew Christ was innocent and still allowed it to happen, knowing full well he could have stopped it entirely.  Also, Pilates wife pleaded with him not to have anything to do with Christs crucifixion because she had some sort of dream, which the bible doesnt go into detail about.
> 
> Mat 27:19  Besides, while he was sitting on the judgment seat, _*his wife sent word to him, “Have nothing to do with that righteous man, for I have suffered much because of him today in a dream.”*_



Agree mate. He had the power to stop it but gave it up to popular demand. Hardly surprising considering he would have being interested in keeping peace and social cohesion in a volatile region that the Romans knew too well of from previous experience.


----------



## AddictRecon

theMerovingian said:


> Agree mate. He had the power to stop it but gave it up to popular demand. Hardly surprising considering he would have being interested in keeping peace and social cohesion in a volatile region that the Romans knew too well of from previous experience.



yeah, Pilate would have also most likely gotten in trouble for 'not having control' of his region with his own superiors if there was a revolt, which I think was a factor.  Ultimately, in 70ad, there was a revolt, and the huge Roman resources it took to destroy Jerusalem would not have been good for Pilates resume had it happened during his governorship, I could be wrong.


----------



## AddictRecon

psy997 said:


> It is to ask why man engages in self-destructive behaviors, why man hurts himself and others. There is an order, but this order does not have to be followed. It may be more harmonious to learn and live in this order, but it is not necessary nor is it forced. As levels mentioned, free will is one of the most basic tenets of this existence.



^^^ This is a fundamental teaching in Christian theology, we go a little farther, but you really hit the nail on the head with this observance.


----------



## RDP89

psy997 said:


> God isn't an interventionist when it comes to free will. However, this point matters not if you continue holding onto the idea of God as as preached by mainstream Christianity. That is an omnipotent, all powerful being, consciously watching over all we do. In that framework, the idea of God being interventionist makes sense. However, that is not what God is. God is a creative principle, God is a singularity that expanded and manifested into a million and one infinite ways of being, perceiving, and vibrating, moving, changing, and evolving. God is a force, and an energy, and the center of all that is - as is experienced by humans and by other sentient beings. In this framework, prayer is a tool with which one may connect to that which is within them, and ultimately that which is them. The divine light within is god, although we are not god him/itself. We are but a piece, and yet, we also hold the whole. All reflections and microcosms hold the entirety of the macrocosm. In this way prayer be used to consciously summon the divine creative principle and co-create, bringing into existence or possibility of existence what was before unthought of or deemed impossible.
> 
> Thus, the classic "If God is real, all loving, and all powerful, why does he allow suffering?" question is rendered obsolete, null, and void. It is to ask why man engages in self-destructive behaviors, why man hurts himself and others. There is an order, but this order does not have to be followed. It may be more harmonious to learn and live in this order, but it is not necessary nor is it forced. As levels mentioned, free will is one of the most basic tenets of this existence.



But not all suffering is man made. People with terrible diseases, are you saying those were somehow inflicted by the destructive behavior of people? For the record, I don't believe in god, I think it's an insane concept with absolutely no evidence backing it.


----------



## AddictRecon

RDP89 said:


> I don't believe in god, I think it's an insane concept with absolutely no evidence backing it.



What evidence would convince you God exists?


----------



## psy997

RDP89 said:


> But not all suffering is man made. People with terrible diseases, are you saying those were somehow inflicted by the destructive behavior of people? For the record, I don't believe in god, I think it's an insane concept with absolutely no evidence backing it.



I'm unsure what you're asking here. You don't seem to have understood the message I was conveying with my last post.

You fail to see God because of your preconceptions. You look and will never find so long as you look in the way you do. A widening of perspective is needed, a paradigm shift in visualization and perception. Re-read my post.

God is ultimately a singularity, an infinite but singular energy, from that place expanding into the outer/farther manifestations that we experience now, as physical humans, and then taking another course back, eventually returning. God is a process, god is a flow, god is a way of being, a way of action, and a wave of movement, evolution and change. God is everything. But, initially and ultimately, god is also one thing or no-thing; alpha and omega, beginning and end. Thus, the idea that the phenomena of suffering is an indication of the character - if such a concept of character or any other categorization or label could even be ascribed upon such a force/energy/flow - of god, is again, null, void, and illogical. It is an inane and futile question to ask or assertion to make, it has no bearing in reality. Suffering occurs because suffering occurs. There are many levels to look at this, and reasons for why suffering does occur, but that is not even necessary. You cannot ascribe such an ephemeral concept onto such an infinite, unending, and inherently ineffable process.

Do you require elaboration?


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

DoctorMolecule said:


> ^ the passages from mark and Luke are completely out of context, and ignore what the Jewish leaders were doing in using their oral Torah above the written Torah: extra rules for cleanliness and rituals, making donations to the temple above taking care of your parents etc. Christ said he is the fulfillment of the written law. Logos made flesh. Christ came to midrash the Torah. Even while being crucified he is singing psalms. Is Jesus our master or our servant. At first the apostles see him as master, then Jesus washes their feet, then Jesus calls them his friends. If your master is your friend he will give his life for you



If your master is your friend??

A friend will not make himself your master, to begin with, nor will he ask you to ignore that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs youhave done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them,--- is immoral. 

A moral friend would remind you of these.

 Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The sonshall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear theiniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, andthe wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put todeath because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because oftheir fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The sonshall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for theiniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself,and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

You can ignore scriptures all you like but do not try to say that Jesus would. If you do, I will sick my Bishop on you.






As to that quote. Ignore it if you like but there are a number of them that say the same thing.

Isaiah 56:11) "They areshepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way,each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for theday of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORDoccupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9)& (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between therighteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:18)

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

levels said:


> I so fundamentally disagree with this statement that I'm confused as to how you could make it. Is this what Christians really believe? I've never read the bible but I've read lots of quotes from it and listened to lots of Christians talk very attentively.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The apostles creed and the stupid Trinity concept force all Christians to believe that Jesus' Father is Yahweh.
> 
> I agree with you that to tie Jesus, an archetypal good man mythical character to Yahweh, a genocidal son murdering prick of a God to Jesus is to insult Jesus.
> 
> It is a good thing that there is more than one Jesus shown in the bible. The best being the Gnostic Christian Jesus whom I quote often.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think GB is a good example of the Gnostic Christian perspective having read many of his posts and scratched my head and I very much enjoy the Gnostic perspective from what little I've read about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I am a WIP. Most do not recognize that in growing a love of mankind, a person will also grow his hate of what inhibits all men from loving each other.
> 
> To me, the main culprit against universal love are organized religions and governments that have become corrupted. Today, that means most religions and governments.
> 
> That conflict, love/hate of my fellow religionists is created by my love pushing my hate and that has an effect on what I write and how I write it. My passion to do my duty to mankind is a harsh task master and that makes me more of a fundamental religionist than most.
> 
> As John Lennon said, the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian and I expect those who use a part of my label to shape up morally or see me show the reason that Christians killed my sort the moment they gained political power. Because they could not justify their immoral genocidal son murdering God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No offense intended GB. If you've ever experienced a fraction of the love that is available to us in every living breathing moment I think you'd be skeptical about the OT's attribution of YHWH as God. I can dig up some quotes that make this explicit if you like.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No offence taken my friend.
> Like any good fundamental Gnostic Christen, I cannot be offended, by anything other than having my argument refuted. Only fundamental Christians can be offended as they cannot argue for Yahweh, who is as vile as you seem to think. The proper verdict to all moral people.
> 
> Just to clarify my statement of not being able to be offended by anything other than having my argument refuted.
> 
> I should tell you that I debate to lose arguments. That way I might learn someth8ing new. One of the great pleasures in life.
> If I win an argument, I gain nothing and my interlocutor wins if he recognizes his loss. Most Christians remain less intelligent because they do not know to take the win because they see it as a loss. This aside.
> 
> I did experienced a fraction of the love that is available to us in every living breathing moment, nice description BTW, on the day of my apotheosis, minus the divine part of how that is defined. I would call it happiness instead of love but love was certainly a part of what I found. Then again, I was late in life to know how to love and hate.
> 
> You are likely right in that I am a poor example of a Gnostic Christian. With that in mind, you will know that I am teaming up with a better Gnostic Christian than I for an ask a Gnostic O.P.
> 
> I will invite you to it when we are up and running.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does Jesus ever explicitly state YHWH is God in the NT? If not perhaps there is a bit of extrapolation going on.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Jesus never states that he is Yahweh.

Jesus said, seek God. He never said seek me. 
He also said, do not call me good, no one is good except God.

I think the church wrote that in because they did not want people to call Jesus the good, or God, God the good, because those were Chrestian designations for God and Jesus. The church wanted to further themselves from Chrestianity, which was a Gnostic Chrestian or Christian religion. 

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Jesus never states that he is Yahweh.
> 
> Jesus said, seek God. He never said seek me.
> He also said, do not call me good, no one is good except God.
> 
> I think the church wrote that in because they did not want people to call Jesus the good, or God, God the good, because those were Chrestian designations for God and Jesus. The church wanted to further themselves from Chrestianity, which was a Gnostic Chrestian or Christian religion.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Jesus said no ones comes to God except through Him, and explicitly states that all Judgement is through His authority which God has put in His control.

You can mischaracterize Christ all you want but you are just inventing a false Jesus to suit your personal beliefs, a Jesus that never existed.

The term 'gnostic Christian' is an oxymoron, as Christianity is fundamentally antithetical to gnosticism.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

swilow said:


> Isn't Yahweh the biblical god though?



Bible God is the Jewish God that they call YHVH. "The most important of God's Names is the four-letter Name represented by the  Hebrew letters Yod-Hei-Vav-Hei (YHVH). It is  often referred to as the Ineffable Name, the Unutterable Name or the  Distinctive Name.".

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm

YHVH is an androgynous God and is bible God even though the church has tried to take all the feminine out of scriptures. The feminie does not suit the Christian God of War, I guess.




Shrooms00087 said:


> Can you prove that you are not God incarnated through the various resources of physics that give light to your reflection?



Yes. If it is bible God we are talking about. Proof is in that you and I are better than that supernatural God is. As we can do things he cannot. I was working on this for a later o.p Have a look.
Can you accept that Man is greater than God?
We can think. God cannot.
We can reproduce true. God cannot.
We can have many children. God cannot.
We place the lives of our wives and families above our own.God does not.
We would cure instead of kill. God kills.
We do not torture babies. God does.
We believe in freedom. God does not.
Jesus does which is why he took the judgement seat from HisFather.
You can continue to adore a God inferior to you, bothintellectually and morally, or become a Gnostic Christian or Karaite Jew likeJesus was. Jesus the Good as the Chrestians used to call him beforeChristianity reared it’s ugly head by reading their myths literally and embracetheir God of War. 
Islam would be a better religion today if that had notforced Mohammad to change from a loving God to a God or War so as to fight firewith fire. Thanks Christians for Islam. Pardon the digression.
Jesus shows the way with his advice to seek God by closetingyourself. Are you ready to follow Jesus or will you stick with your lyingpriests, preachers, Rabbi’s and Imams?
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also didpredestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be thefirstborn among many brethren.
[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded[/URL]




levels said:


> A lot of really great quotes, some of which even I have seen before. I draw inspiration from them. Christ the consciousness and Jesus the man are both important to me and nobody likes to feel like their beliefs are blasphemous. Only Matthew 1:23 directly addresses my question though. All others give support to that assertion in some form. Is Immanuel = Yahweh? Is that what the O.T says? Thanks for taking the time to address my questions.



John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Regardless of the name of the Father, Jesus tells us where he waits for us. Just where Christian iconography says he is. In our minds. That is why Gnostic Christians seek within and are rewarded better than Christians.



levels said:


> I still think this is debatable having read your reply which is soundly based in scripture. You presuppose continuity between O.T and N.T which again is an assumption that must be carefully evaluated. Unless of course the N.T says explicitly "I am Jesus Christ, God of the O.T, Yahweh incarnate" or something like that in which case I'll back down. I don't know enough to say.
> 
> Lord lord, why have you forsaken me.
> 
> Me me, why have I forsaken me.
> 
> Would Jesus call himself Lord? The Trinity concept is ridiculous and Christianity should have left Mary as the third Goddess of the original Trinity but their misogynous zeal would not let them. Bastards.
> 
> 
> 
> If we assume YHWH is a demiurge god, which Gnostics believed before Jesus Christ was born ( see Nag Hammadi scrolls), then Jesus comes and saves us from that belief and reveals a much kinder, compassionate God that leads us towards salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Except that we do not need salvation as the God we envisage, a good Jesus archetype, never condemns his children. That would be evil as Gnostic Christians are Universalists who have tied equality to righteousness. The salvific aspect of Gnosis is to be saved from poor thinking. All the Gods live in the minds of people. Your mind is the only place your God can be found. That is an irrefutable fact, regardless of your God or ideal.
> 
> 
> 
> Your narrative is mostly accurate except is doesn't confuse Gods. That's a narrative I can embrace. I can find support for this in many different text that are old. Maybe not O.T old but old nonetheless. We also must question how the Bible was assembled as a collection of written works to the exclusion of others.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> We have four main gospels because some Christian fool, whose name I have forgotten, said it should be so because we had four seasons.
> 
> The rest, the best, was discarded because idol worship had made stupid Christian believers, even more stupid, so things had to be dumbed down. Lets thank all the Gods that Christians are no longer stupid, save the literalists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New age is also a term that must be wielded carefully. The new age deception is real. As a blanket term to dismiss anything non biblical it is like trump calling facts fake news. It doesn't evaluate the various narratives which are numerous on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Careful my friend. You begin to sound like a Gnostic Christian. As John Lennon said. The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian. Your, superior to them morality, will make you hated by them. 




AddictRecon said:


> Gnostics overwhelmingly are ignorant to the fact that the 'nice guy' image of Christ comes intertwined with the very Christ who is also going to judge the earth, remember, Christ is the one who decides who goes to hell (Joh 5:22), He is also the one who will destroy the wicked from the face of the earth, sound familiar? Because its not the first time Hes done it.



If all else fails, losers revert to throwing the false guilt and fear cards.






Your God torture and kills innocent babies.

Justify that or see Yahweh end in the hell you believe in.



levels said:


> Never was much of a fan of Richard Dawkins, but that quote pretty well sums it up. Let's just hope then that Jesus Christ stays nice if he's YHWH as you say. That's why I'm not Christian. Still love Christ though. Spent years reading A Course in Miracles, which I know, I know, is blasphemous, but that Christ is a shining example of love and forgiveness. Thanks again for the quotes and stuff.
> 
> Here's a few I like:



I like.

We have yet to learn the limits of what oue DNA can do. It looks like there is a lot of new evidence that shows that our reality is stranger than we think. Not supernaturally strange, that is for losers, but more on the lines of controlling sub-atomic particles and chatting, so to speak, with our DNA.


							″You are the work of God, and His work is wholly lovable and wholly loving. -------- You are the light of the world living in heaven.

 This is how a man must think of himself in his heart, because this is what he is.” III.3-4	------- Heaven or hell are in your own mind.				 



“God is not partial. ------ Gnostic Christianity says rightness is not possible without equality.

 All His children have His total Love, and all His gifts are freely given to everyone alike.”	  ------ Love for us God cannot help. God's respect, we have to earn.				 



When I [Jesus] said, “I am with you always,” I meant it literally. ----- Gnostic Christians recognize that given spark of God. We must waken the Dragon within us though with Gnosis.

 I am not absent to anyone in any situation. ------- Unto death.

 Because I am always with you, you are the way and the truth and the light. ------- After Gnosis and apotheosis. Jacob's ladder.

 You did not make this power, any more than I did. ------- Nature is the culprit.

 It was created to be shared and therefore cannot be meaningfully perceived as

 belonging to anyone at the expense of another. ------- I do not agree with this as nature creates for the best possible end and for all nature knows, man, the controlling species, may find a use for ownership.

 Such a perception makes it meaningless by eliminating or overlooking its real and only meaning. ------- This I do not quite understand.




swilow said:


> I would have thought Christians would seek to distance themselves from that OT malevolent bully. The OT deity is indefensible imo, any worship of such is the worship of all those things Dawkins (also not a huge fan) details. I think its right to try an counteract and vehemently criticize any who support this monster.
> 
> Jesus, otoh, seems to value gentleness and love, and while I don't believe he was divine, I can get behind those teachings. The world has always needed those qualities. Now, perhaps, more than ever.



I agree.

It is a shame that Rome created such an immoral Jesus which Christianity sold instead of the gnostic Jesus that is still in the scriptures that show the best ways and means to find true spirituality. Gnostic Christian Jesus was in a sense killed by Rome. Nice that the biblical scribes were bright enough to put some of the pertinent gnostic Christian ideology is some of the scriptures.

Rome likely never proof read the bible. They only found the danger of Gnostic Christians later and Constantine had his new church decimate us and many other Mystery schools and burn our myths and wisdom books. So much for freedom of religion. A Christian icon.



levels said:


> I'm not an expert on prayers for sick and suffering children. I mean, I've heard of sick and suffering children going to faith healers and experiencing healings. That's a thing right. Happens everyday. Not sure if you believe it or not. That said, I agree with you that there have been prayers for sick and suffering children that went unanswered. Not sure why but theres a big picture I can't fully see. You'd have to get to the bottom of that yourself with a little research. Personally, I'm happy for my sister and find comparisons of worthiness to receive the benefits of prayer to be a bit reactionary.



Prayer is ok for some things but lest we forget Jehovah Witness children who died for want of a transfusion while the parents prayed. 
I recommend meditation more than prayer but if one thinks one is gaining something by prayer t6hen they should follow that bliss. 

I just pray that they find Gods better than Yahweh, Roman Jesus Allah to pray to. None of those are worthy of any moral person.



AddictRecon said:


> I have no clue what you are talking about.. there is no 'course in miracles' written by Jesus Christ. There is no 'Aquarian Gospel' either, the synoptic gospels are Matthew, Mark, and Luke, with the fourth Gospel account of John.
> 
> You might be into some newage stuff, but that has nothing to do with Christianity.



Did you see above why you only have 4 main gospels. Crazy Christians eh?

Gnostic Christianity is not new age. It is old age and will bring seeking God back into vogue because it will show the thinking world just how vile the mainstream Gods are.

The old and stupid Christianity won the God Wars and nearly did us in, but now we live in a world of words and not swords and Christianity will fall even faster than it has in the last few years as . Telligent Christians will flock to Gnostic Christians for the good advice Christians did not like when Christians were more stupid than today. Save literalists.




vortech said:


> What about the Gospel of Thomas? That is some potent stuff right there! It may be non-canonical, but it speaks more strongly to me than much of the NT.



Potent?

Indeed. Put together, the Gnostic myth and ideology is potent against Christianity for sure. Potent to the point of toxic and that is why they decimated us. Our arguments were toxic and antithetic to Christianity because they preach full equality for all and that did not suit the homophobic, intolerant and misogynous rulers and clergy. You cannot hold power without the masses giving you power to act and both the government of the day and the religions wanted scapegoats to punish so as to keep the population cowed and afraid. Bastards.  



AddictRecon said:


> The Gospel of Thomas is widely recognized as a fake, and what it teaches is antithetical to Christianity.  In fact, most would say its the first attempt to discredit Christianity. Fortunately, the early Church leaders recognized it as a fraudulent attempt to poison Christianity. Gnosticism is antithetical to Christianity, and it shares the same status as any other cult mentality in our view.
> 
> _Bart Ehrman argues the Gospel of Thomas is a 2nd__ Century Gnostic text based on the lack of any reference to the coming Kingdom of God and return of Jesus. The earliest leaders of the Church also recognized the Gospel of Thomas was a late, inauthentic, heretical work. Hipploytus identified it as a fake and a heresy in “Refutation of All Heresies” (222-235AD), Origen referred to it in a similar way in a homily (written around 233AD), Eusebius resoundingly rejected it as an absurd, impious and heretical “fiction” in the third book of his “Church History” (written prior to 326AD), Cyril advised his followers to avoid the text as heretical in his “Catechesis” (347-348AD), and Pope Gelasius included the Gospel of Thomas in his list of heretical books in the 5th century._  (J. Warner Wallace)
> 
> LOL. Fake.
> 
> Have you read what Bart says about the bible.
> 
> Regardless if fake or not, all scriptures are fake in the sense that we do not have any primary documentation for many years after the so called sacrifice of a Jesus/God who cannot die. Any slight Christian glitch.
> 
> One of the oldest works thou do show how Christianity highjack what I think is a Gnostic Chriestian, now Gnostic Christian, document.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rAt-PAkgqls





levels said:


> You're clearly non interested in engaging in a friendly debate with me on this topic. You restate my own perspective and admissions as non-existent when I've taken the time to frame it very clearly and you restate your own as being representative of Christianity and you ignore any challenge at the scripture level. I'm not interested in continuing this discussion but thanks again



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

When two belief systems meet, a fight is inevitable. The quality of thinking from the best belief will always irritate the one with the lesser position. Especially when logic and reason and proper morals meet poor morals and faith.
 
Martin Luther. “Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding.” 
“Reason is a whore, thegreatest enemy that faith has.” 




RDP89 said:


> If God is not an interventionist, doesn't that make prayer completely pointless?(other than as a psychological tool to help one feel better) And if God doesn't intervene, then how did god take away your sister's nicotine addiction?



I put something above on the power of the mind but have you heard of bio feedback and placebo effect? Tobacco is an addiction. Addiction is connected to a low dopamine count. The pleasure center produce dopamine. If the lady enjoys praying, it releases dopamine and reduces the cravings and eventually the addiction.   




swilow said:


> Does Jesus claim to support that tyrant though and its beliefs? His teachings are quite different. I guess I was being generous, for me I totally disregard Jesus and the OT god too. Its simpler.
> 
> You seem to imagine that your truth is the only truth. Hence, you continually have people here actively cease discussion with you because there is really no wiggle room in your views. Its like talking to a brick wall. You don't wish to discuss but impose your certainty on others. Its pretty tiresome. Here's a thought; maybe you're wrong? Maybe you've been tricked into supporting an evil god. If its the OT god, you are supporting petty evil.
> 
> The OT god seems remarkably jealousy and childish, with intensely human concerns. It makes me think this god is really just a construct of humans.



The way I read the Roman Jesus, he was as immoral as Yahweh.

The way I read the Gnostic Jesus, I can see why we called him Jesus the good in the old days. 

Yahweh was in Gnostic Christian Jesus' view unworthy of us.

This is easily gleaned from Jesus when he prevented the stoning of a man on the Sabbath. He said that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. This extrapolates to religions and Gods were made for man, not man for them.

Jesus did not believe in a God out there. He believed in a God in here.
GnosticChristian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is inthe sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. 
If they sayto you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. 
Rather, theKingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. 
[Those who]become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] becomeacquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are thesons of the living Father. 
But if youwill not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are thatpoverty."




levels said:


> My sister prayed to Jesus Christ, son of God. I'm not aligned with the Christian perspective outlined here that God and Christ are entirely interchangeable. In a sense Christ is God, but Christ did not create God. With that prayer she accomplished a number of things 1) she set her free will to a clearly stated goal. 2) she opened herself up to receive the the help of Christ and all forces aligned with Christ be they angels, guides, guardians, ascended masters, etc, etc who look after humanity while respecting free will 3) she called upon one who can dispel darkness. It's a powerful act. You don't have to believe it but that's how I understand it. I'm not the only one saying stuff like this BTW. We're not alone. We have a whole support system. Prayer is the medium by which we express this.



I strongly promote meditation. It worked to help me push my apotheosis. A shame I cannot get as deeply into it anymore. 
God does not need to speak to a person many times.




AddictRecon said:


> While Im certainly not the only one here expressing my 'truth', Ive noticed alot of others here doing the same, yet its only a problem when I do, specifically on the topic of Jesus, which I find interesting.
> 
> ..



Do you find this presentation intelligent or something else?






Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Jesus incarnated through the line of David, ..



The line is carried by the sperm. God does not have invisible flying sperm..

 Further, Jesus was what, the 6th. so called born of a virgin guy?



theMerovingian said:


> Why did Pontius Pilate always pick up the bad and negative association as he did offer to the people who thus thy wish to crucify barabbas or jesus and they elected to crucify the son of the carpenter but did he not give the people the choice and they elected to save the murderer did they not ??



If you seek perfect thought on religion, ------ 

Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1  Therefore leaving the principles of thedoctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again thefoundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, andof laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternaljudgment.

 Why you might ask.
Isaiah 56:11) "They areshepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way,each on to his unjust gain, to the last one" But do not despair, for theday of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORDoccupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9)& (Malachi 3:3). In that day, "you will distinguish between therighteous and the wicked" (Malachi 3:18)
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away thekey of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering inye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through yourtradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 If you go inside.










AddictRecon said:


> Exactly, I place the motive for Christs death squarely on the Jews,
> 
> Rome won the God wars and you believe what the victors wanted you to believe.
> 
> 
> 
> AddictRecon said:
> 
> 
> 
> What evidence would convince you God exists?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What evidence would convince you that a book that begins with a talking serpent, a taking donkey and a water walking man/God can walk on water yet can die when God cannot die?
> 
> Or simply stated, what would convince you that the supernatural is a delusion?
> 
> Regards
> DL
Click to expand...


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop, considering you don't believe in the same Christianity I don't believe in, and your characterization of Christ is found no where in history, let alone the Bible, I'm not sure there is even a conversation to be had.  It's honestly much easier to let you misrepresent the Bible as some sort of straw man argument, and then agree with you that the straw man you've erected is in fact false.  In fact, you are doing my work for me, and for that I am grateful, I cant thank you enough for giving me the platform to share this.  Considering how small and irrelevant Gnosticism is, I don't think anyone could do a better job of disproving what you believe than you already have.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Gnostic Bishop, considering you don't believe in the same Christianity I don't believe in, and your characterization of Christ is found no where in history, let alone the Bible, I'm not sure there is even a conversation to be had.  It's honestly much easier to let you misrepresent the Bible as some sort of straw man argument, and then agree with you that the straw man you've erected is in fact false.  In fact, you are doing my work for me, and for that I am grateful, I cant thank you enough for giving me the platform to share this.  Considering how small and irrelevant Gnosticism is, I don't think anyone could do a better job of disproving what you believe than you already have.



Thanks for ending with whining, lies and distortions to hide the fact that you cannot argue for your genocidal son murdering God.

You also, unfortunately, continue to support an intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religion.  

It is I who can't thank you enough for giving me the platform to share this.  Considering how small and irrelevant Gnosticism is, I don't think anyone could do a better job of allowing me to show all here your poor moral sense.

Morality is the key to spirituality and your key is defective.






Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Thanks for ending with whining, lies and distortions to hide the fact that you cannot argue for your genocidal son murdering God.
> 
> You also, unfortunately, continue to support an intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religion.
> 
> It is I who can't thank you enough for giving me the platform to share this.  Considering how small and irrelevant Gnosticism is, I don't think anyone could do a better job of allowing me to show all here your poor moral sense.
> 
> Morality is the key to spirituality and your key is defective.
> 
> Regards
> DL



At least you agree that Gnosticism is small and irrelevant.

What is your morality?  You seem to base most of what you believe on youtube videos.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> At least you agree that Gnosticism is small and irrelevant.
> 
> What is your morality?  You seem to base most of what you believe on youtube videos.



My morality shows yours to be satanic. Go away.

I am done with you.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> My morality shows yours to be satanic. Go away.
> 
> I am done with you.
> 
> Regards
> DL



You haven't really demonstrated what moral foundation you appeal to.  Satan, in Christianity, is called the deceiver, or the adversary, we view Satan as antithetical to the Judeo Christian faith, he represents evil of the highest order.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Xorkoth said:


> Ah, the travails of posting on a web forum.  The truth is, I just find your condescending tone towards people and aggressive content to be offputting.  I respect that you're trying to get a message across, and I even agree with it more or less in many cases.  But surely you've heard the saying that you catch more flies with honey?  When you conduct yourself in aggressive and insulting ways, people stop listening, and you're just swinging the pendulum because it creates more negativity in the opposite direction which only further empowers the opposition to feel more strongly their way.  To me the goal is to stop it swinging at all.  I was criticizing you, yes, because when you lead with personal attacks it detracts from your argument.  Calling someone a child is unmistakably condescending and no one respects the message when it is being condescended to them.  Criticism is different from personal attacks.  Nowhere have I denigraded you.  Or if I have in some other thread, I apologize and was probably just aggravated, we all make mistakes.
> 
> If I'm being honest I usually have a hard time responding to your OPs because they read like sensationalist news headlines, the kind that lead to people in the comments section telling each other how wrong the other one is.  It doesn't provoke an atmosphere of even discourse, but instead one in which people lash out back and forth because they feel offended.  I'm not trying to offend you with this post, it's just my feeling about it over time.  If you want better discussion in your threads, maybe adjust your tact a bit.
> 
> If this were the inquisition times and people were trying to kill you, I would feel differently, but no one is trying to kill you (or so I assume anyway).  Maybe it would help to frame your arguments in a way that highlights what gnostic christianity could do in a positive sense, instead of focusing on inflaming people who don't agree with you.  Be an ambassador.  Otherwise you're part of everyone else who is trying to ram their views down the throats of nonbelievers.



A Gnostic Christian has two things that apotheosis teaches him he must do. Promote the good of Gnostic Christianity and fight against the immoral creeds that he encounters.

I gain nothing by winning an argument against brain dead and morally compromised Christians.

My hope is that women and gays will win something by having an impact on the lurkers who can judge morals.

Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed intointolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grownthemselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoralways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works anddeeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as hispeople, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudlycontinuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.




AddictRecon said:


> Anyone can take the bible out of context to make it say what they want, which I believe is what you are doing on this forum, primarily.
> 
> I specifically set my mind to studying the scriptures, and the things you say make zero sense.  Its like you read a few passages of the bible out of context and then defined the rest of the bible based on those bad contextual extrapolations.
> 
> Its not only dishonest, but reprehensible in terms of an honest critique.  From what ive read of your posts, it shows how little of the bible youve actually read or seem to understand, and I honestly dont think youve read that much of it.



I do not expect to make much sense to a guy like you who loves a genocidal son murdering prick of a God while calling such a prick good.

I cannot shine my light on you while you hide in a labyrinth of evil. Say hi to your friend Satan for me.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> A Gnostic Christian has two things that apotheosis teaches him he must do. Promote the good of Gnostic Christianity and fight against the immoral creeds that he encounters.
> 
> I gain nothing by winning an argument against brain dead and morally compromised Christians.
> 
> My hope is that women and gays will win something by having an impact on the lurkers who can judge morals.
> 
> Both Christianity and Islam have basically developed intointolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grownthemselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoralways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
> 
> Jesus said we would know his people by their works anddeeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as hispeople, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
> 
> Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudlycontinuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not expect to make much sense to a guy like you who loves a genocidal son murdering prick of a God while calling such a prick good.
> 
> I cannot shine my light on you while you hide in a labyrinth of evil. Say hi to your friend Satan for me.
> 
> Regards
> DL



I don't know Satan, we consider him evil and do not attempt to talk to him, perhaps you might ask someone else.

Christiantiy is fundamentally opposed to Gnosticism, not sure why you use the words together.. It's like saying "I'm a Christian Atheist".. makes no sense.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Gnostic Bishop said:
			
		

> I am a WIP. Most do not recognize that in growing a love of mankind, a person will also grow his hate of what inhibits all men from loving each other.
> 
> To me, the main culprit against universal love are organized religions and governments that have become corrupted. Today, that means most religions and governments.
> 
> That conflict, love/hate of my fellow religionists is created by my love pushing my hate and that has an effect on what I write and how I write it. My passion to do my duty to mankind is a harsh task master and that makes me more of a fundamental religionist than most.



I like how you've handled that. You're showing a side of yourself these last few threads I haven't seen in some of your earlier posts. I understand your anger towards Christianity and Islam but starting a bunch of threads where you try to get people to arrive at the same conclusion as yourself surreptitiously without stating clearly your own beliefs or showing your more personable side... it was a big turn off for me. It was like you were preaching to a room full of Christians trying to get them to see the light, when most people here aren't Christians at all. That said, I like that you can take the feedback and I misunderstood you to some extent. I better understand where you are coming from now. You haven't said much about what Gnostic Christianity is, but have said a lot about what it isn't. If it was in some of your earlier posts and videos I missed it because I was suspicious of your message. I personally don't really need much more convincing at this point that Yahweh is a demiurgic ruler. 

I watched a few of your videos today and gotta say I generally like the message. Doesn't mean I agree with all of it.

Bishop John Shelby Spong is a great speaker. I was inspired by him. There is very little he said I disagree with. It was really interesting what he said about the age of various chapters in Genesis and how they aren't necessarily in chronological order as far as the date they were written. Never heard that before. He said one thing that irked me a bit related to ascension. To me ascension is an accepted part of the dynamics of incarnation. His characterization of ascension discredited the concept by discrediting the subset of people that do not understand ascension and take the word more literally. Ascension has a precise meaning. Of course people disagree about details, but that's not surprising. He then goes on to describe the emergence phenomena in biological systems. This emergence is completely inseparable from ascension when you really listen to what people are saying about it. Anyways, that said, I'll check out some more videos of his because I like how he talks and explains things. It'll help me better understand the Gnostic Christian perspective I'm assuming. That's something I'm interested in. My background in Gnosticism came mostly from the Nag Hammadi scrolls particularly as relates to the demiurge, Archons, the Aeons, the feminine principle (the emergence of Sophia the divine feminine), etc. These are ideas that live on in many of the spiritual teachings that are most important and resonant with me. Since these came before Christ, I'm curious how these have combined together in the Gnostic Christian perspective



			
				levels said:
			
		

> If we assume YHWH is a demiurge god, which Gnostics believed before Jesus Christ was born ( see Nag Hammadi scrolls), then Jesus comes and saves us from that belief and reveals a much kinder, compassionate God that leads us towards salvation.





			
				Gnostic Bishop said:
			
		

> Yes. Except that we do not need salvation as the God we envisage, a good Jesus archetype, never condemns his children. That would be evil as Gnostic Christians are Universalists who have tied equality to righteousness. The salvific aspect of Gnosis is to be saved from poor thinking. All the Gods live in the minds of people. Your mind is the only place your God can be found. That is an irrefutable fact, regardless of your God or ideal.



Yes, that is a good point and I agree. I'm not a salvationist; I would rather have chosen a different word. You know those Chinese handcuffs you put your fingers in and the harder you pull apart the more stuck you get. That was humanity when Jesus arrived. Jesus did show us a way out of the seeming puzzle, but the Chinese handcuffs were never a real threat. Just the belief in being stuck and an inability to see beyond our own confusions. Only in that sense did Jesus _save_ us from Yahweh.



> I strongly promote meditation. It worked to help me push my apotheosis. A shame I cannot get as deeply into it anymore.
> God does not need to speak to a person many times.



Me too. I meditate daily. To me meditation deepens multidimensional awareness. Prayer is the means of communication with the reality that is revealed. 



> It was created to be shared and therefore cannot be meaningfully perceived as
> 
> belonging to anyone at the expense of another. ------- I do not agree with this as nature creates for the best possible end and for all nature knows, man, the controlling species, may find a use for ownership.
> 
> Such a perception makes it meaningless by eliminating or overlooking its real and only meaning. ------- This I do not quite understand.



I liked you commentary on the quotes. The last bit there can be explained by the following metaphor. In the material world, if you give you friend a slice of pizza that is one less slice of pizza for yourself. Things like ideas and love grow by sharing. It is a complete misunderstanding of love to treat it like a slice of pizza in the hopes of keeping more for yourself. This perception makes love meaningless.

Don't think I addressed everything but I ready for bed now. Cheers.


----------



## swilow

AddictRecon said:


> Exactly, I place the motive for Christs death squarely on the Jews, .]



You and billions of others.  In truth, you should thank the Jews. Didn't Jesus's death open the gates of paradise? Wasn't he sent down to die, by god, his own father? How can anyone be blamed for doing gods will?

More theology that really makes no sense when examined.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

*levels*

 Just two quick issues.

 On ascension.
 A gnostic Christians does not so much ascend as in-scension. 

I do not think that is a word but Gnosis is what I am talking about and following the more mystical Gnostic Jesus and his way to perfect wisdom.

Two of those ways of thought.

First. 
Hebrews 6 King James Version; 1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Second.
GnosticChristian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is inthe sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. 
If they sayto you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you. 
Rather, theKingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. 
[Those who]become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] becomeacquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are thesons of the living Father. 
But if youwill not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are thatpoverty."
 ------------------


Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.

---------------

 You have to ascend into your own mind and access your right hemisphere. Therein lies Gnosis and apotheosis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

Regards
 DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

swilow said:


> You and billions of others.  In truth, you should thank the Jews. Didn't Jesus's death open the gates of paradise? Wasn't he sent down to die, by god, his own father? How can anyone be blamed for doing gods will?
> 
> More theology that really makes no sense when examined.



The Christian Exeltet hymn even calls Adam's sin a happy fault and necessary to have Jesus' death have meaning.

Yet they still call Eden where man fell even though it was a happy and necessary fall.

Christian thinking is ass backwards.

Regards
DL


----------



## Jabberwocky

Gnostic Bishop said:
			
		

> On ascension.
> A gnostic Christians does not so much ascend as in-scension.



that's exactly it. It's a de-scension of the heavens into the embodied form and concurrently an in-scension. A progressive healing of the illusion of separation through the embodiment of a higher divine template.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

levels said:


> that's exactly it. It's a de-scension of the heavens into the embodied form and concurrently an in-scension. A progressive healing of the illusion of separation through the embodiment of a higher divine template.



I think you have it. 

Let us pray that all get it.

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

swilow said:


> You and billions of others.  In truth, you should thank the Jews. Didn't Jesus's death open the gates of paradise? Wasn't he sent down to die, by god, his own father? How can anyone be blamed for doing gods will?
> 
> More theology that really makes no sense when examined.



We don't view it as being thankful to the Jews, rather, we are thankful to God for His redemptive plan of salvation.  The Jews are responsible for Christs death, but Christians understand why this happened, and the Jews who did understand who Christ was are the Christian founders, appointed by Christ.  Christianity was literally given to us by those Jews who understood, and the Gospel was to be taken beyond Judaism to the rest of the world, so that salvation would be carried to the world, this began in the first century and continues to this day.  

Of the Jews it is written:

*Rom 11:28* As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> We don't view it as being thankful to the Jews, rather, we are thankful to God for His redemptive plan of salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do you also thank God for condemning the whole world unjustly and having to use a barbaric human sacrifice to reverse his faulty judgement?
> 
> The Jews are responsible for Christs death,
Click to expand...


That is a lie if you believe your bible.
1Peter 1:20 0 Hewas chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these lasttimes for your sake.

Note how God decided to kill Jesus as the Jews did not even exist at that point in time.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

It does make sense to the intelligent.

That is what is important.

You might want to read a scholar or two. Elaine Pagels would be a good place for you to start.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

*Can you accept that Man is greater than God?*

Can you accept that Man is greater than God?
We can reproduce true. God cannot.
We can have many children. God cannot.
We place the lives of our wives and families above our own.God does not.
We would cure instead of kill. God kills.
We do not torture babies. God does.
We believe in freedom. God does not.
Jesus does which is why he took the judgement seat from HisFather.

You can continue to adore a God inferior to you, bothintellectually and morally, or become a Gnostic Christian or Karaite Jew likeJesus was. Jesus the Good as the Chrestians used to call him beforeChristianity reared it’s ugly head by reading their myths literally and embracetheir God of War. 

Islam would be a better religion today if that had notforced Mohammad to change from a loving God to a God or War so as to fight firewith fire. Thanks Christians for Islam. Pardon the digression.

Jesus shows the way with his advice to seek God by closetingyourself. Are you ready to follow Jesus or will you stick with your lyingpriests, preachers, Rabbi’s and Imams?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also didpredestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be thefirstborn among many brethren.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL


----------



## Jabberwocky

> Can you accept that Man is greater than God?



No! This is a ridiculous statement IMO. Are you talking about Yahweh and assuming we all think that's what God is? Let me ask you, do you believe this statement yourself? How do you define God if that is the case?


----------



## Shrooms00087

I don't know, can you accept that God is greater than Man? My psychiatrist says I have such a huge super-ego that I feel that I am not fit to carry his lunch. Or something.


----------



## yompf

........I'm curious as to how you define God as well.


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> That is a lie if you believe your bible.
> 1Peter 1:20 0 Hewas chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these lasttimes for your sake.
> 
> Note how God decided to kill Jesus as the Jews did not even exist at that point in time.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Hence the foreknown redemptive plan of salvation, and Jesus fulfilled this.


----------



## Xorkoth

I think you'd be good at journalism in today's media climate, GB.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Yompf, you have exceeded you private message quota. Nobody can send you pm's till you figure out how to delete old messages and make room. You can download old messages into a text file before deleting.



> We do not torture babies. God does.



Some people are sadistic fucks and like to torture babies too. Does that make them more Godlike?


----------



## yompf

OP , I have a hard time believing that anyone anywhere accepts this.


----------



## AddictRecon

Jesus served the God of the OT, the very God the OP is claiming is inferior to man, the op's argument is internally inconsistent.  Moreover, he rejects Christs own words, but claims to believe what Jesus teaches.

fail.


----------



## hail_satan

Can you accept that God is greater than Man?
We are vain and mortal, God is not.
We multiply and spread like a disease, God does not.
We are swayed by emotion over reason, God is not.
We are the most violent and self-destructive species to live on this planet, God is not.
We manufacture and willingly believe in lies, God does not.

Do I have what it takes to be a braindead forum bot?


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

*Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?*

Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

You may use whatever set of commandments you think Yahweh gave. There are a number of renditions.

As for the Gnostic commandments, I offer the following.

1.    You shall place no commandments above these unless proven to be morally superior.
2.    You shall value all people as equal before the law. The inequality of outcome is punishment enough of itself. 
3.    You shall live by the golden rule and respond with reciprocity of harm or care to what is done to you. 
4.    Use Gnosis and put logic and reason and their proofs above faith, which by its nature has no proofs, logic or reason.
5.    You shall leave the environment in a better condition than what is given to you as an inheritance to your next generation. 
6.    You shall not impoverish the next generation and live according to the means you produce as their labor and wealth is theirs and not yours to squander.

Gnostic Christianity and free thinking lost the God wars when the Orthodox Church decimated us and burned most of our scriptures. I think that Gnostic Christians had a superior set of commandments then as well as now. Those commandments were not only meant for seekers after a God but also a guide to secular law. Both secular law and Christianity seemed to ignore the second commandment of equality till our modern era. As a Gnostic Christian, I ask (rhetorically), what took the world so long to catch up to Gnostic Christian thinking and what is Islam and other backwards thinking people waiting for. 

Many have a problem with the 10 commandments given by Yahweh so I thought I would see if there is a consensus of thought on the Gnostic Christian ideology as compared to the Christian ideology. The main complaints I see are that Yahweh’s commandments have created a Christian ideology that denies gays and women equality. I think all souls to be created equal and thus deserving of equal human statue and citizenship.

Others as seen in these two link have their own views and I would add that I think Yahweh’s no divorce policy, --- which Jesus confirms. --- and Yahweh’s policy of accepting bribes, ransoms or sacrifices (these are all analogue) to alter his usual and moral policy punishing the guilty and not the innocent, --- to the immoral policy of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty, as exemplified by his accepting Jesus as a sacrifice to save sinners whom God himself created to be sinners.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u3z69YpLx0#t=100

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUfGRN4HVrQ

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

levels said:


> No! This is a ridiculous statement IMO. Are you talking about Yahweh and assuming we all think that's what God is? Let me ask you, do you believe this statement yourself? How do you define God if that is the case?



I define God as the best rules and laws to live life by. We cannot follow any absentee God and even if a God did pop up, all we can follow is his rules and laws.

You call my statement for the absentee God ridiculous yet just believing in Yahweh is a ridiculous position and following him is even more so given that that prick is a genocidal son murderer if, we are to literally believe the Christian myth.



Shrooms00087 said:


> I don't know, can you accept that God is greater than Man? My psychiatrist says I have such a huge super-ego that I feel that I am not fit to carry his lunch. Or something.



I cannot accept that God is greater than man because I think we have created all the Gods.



yompf said:


> ........I'm curious as to how you define God as well.



As a mythical human construct but do see above.



Xorkoth said:


> I think you'd be good at journalism in today's media climate, GB.



Yes. I agree. A bit of truth, logic and reason would be good.



levels said:


> Some people are sadistic fucks and like to torture babies too. Does that make them more Godlike?



That would depend on the God you have in mind so you have to tell me.

Do you believe the stories in the bible that do show God as an evil prick?



yompf said:


> OP , I have a hard time believing that anyone anywhere accepts this.



All who do not believe in a supernatural God must. To them, God is just another human construct and those are inferior to living people.



AddictRecon said:


> Jesus served the God of the OT,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you see God serving himself when Jesus himself, in your myth, says he is serving man.
> 
> It surprises me how little of your own bible you believe.
> 
> 
> 
> the very God the OP is claiming is inferior to man, the op's argument is internally inconsistent.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So you say without an argument showing the inconsistency. Typical denier garbage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moreover, he rejects Christs own words, but claims to believe what Jesus teaches.
> 
> fail.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Which words? You make all these empty charges and expect to be believed do you. Do you think those here to be that stupid.



hail_satan said:


> Can you accept that God is greater than Man?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not till he earns it and absentee Gods cannot earn anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are vain and mortal, God is not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Read the first 3 commandments as they show otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> We multiply and spread like a disease, God does not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Correct. We have that ability while God does not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are swayed by emotion over reason, God is not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> It is our thinking and reason that guides our emotions. You have it backwards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are the most violent and self-destructive species to live on this planet, God is not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Those around in Noah's day will definitely disagree.
> 
> Dinosaurs might not agree either, but then again, neither you or I know how the lower animals think. You seem to be closer to their level thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We manufacture and willingly believe in lies, God does not.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Your God is the father of lies.
> 
> _Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth ofthese thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. _
> 1Kings 22:23
> 
> _Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth ofthese thy prophets.
> _2 Chron 18:22
> _
> Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people. _
> Jer 4:10
> 
> _And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord havedeceived that prophet.
> _Ezekiel 14:9
> 
> _For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believea lie.
> _Thessalonians 2:11
> 
> O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived. - Jeremiah 20:7
> 
> To me, God’s worse lie was toAdam and Eve. He told them they could eat of the tree of life and then renegedand in a real sense murdered them by denying them a remedy.
> 
> That pesky God sure works in mysterious ways.
> 
> Regards
> DL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do I have what it takes to be a braindead forum bot?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...







Regards
DL


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

AddictRecon said:


> Hence the foreknown redemptive plan of salvation, and Jesus fulfilled this.



Only to those foolish enough to think that God is such a prick that he would have his son murdered to forgive us instead of just forgiving us outright.

I guess that includes you.

Regards
DL


----------



## yompf

OP.  I don't believe in the god referred to in the christian Bible .  You mentioned the 10 commandments and Noah so I am assuming that is what you are talking about.     LOL I don't follow a religion. I believe in God and creation , and i prefer the term "source" ,so the "GOD" I believe in has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about.  Sorry.
   NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN THE GOD FROM THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE.       
   So please take this into account.


----------



## yompf

I personally believe religions to be bogus.  As well as stories in the Bible.  I believe in Jesus though. I have connected to him .  I think you do too right? Instead of rejecting "god" entirely, if you trust in Jesus, maybe let him know that you cannot except the god you have heard about, ask him to show you who or what God REALLY is.    I think it is a mistake and closed minded to reject a loving creator  simply because you didnt like the story in the Christian Bible .  
    Maybe someone else can word that better, but anyway I wish you well in your journey and discovery .  
Much love bro....


----------



## Foreigner

Because there are so many threads taking place on this topic, all past and future content for discussion will go here!


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop said:


> Only to those foolish enough to think that God is such a prick that he would have his son murdered to forgive us instead of just forgiving us outright.
> 
> I guess that includes you.
> 
> Regards
> DL



Jesus worships the God of the OT, you claim to follow Christ, which means you are either a hypocrite, or a liar, take your pick, but you are internally inconsistent with your own beliefs.


----------



## psy997

AddictRecon said:


> *Jesus worships the God of the OT*, you claim to follow Christ, which means you are either a hypocrite, or a liar, take your pick, but you are internally inconsistent with your own beliefs.



Sources please. This contradicts everything I have ever read in either classical or integrative Christian studies.


----------



## AddictRecon

psy997 said:


> Sources please. This contradicts everything I have ever read in either classical or integrative Christian studies.


 
Assuming we are talking about Jesus of Nazareth, of the New Testament, the Torah keeping Jew from the first century who claimed to be the messiah prophesied by YHVH's prophets, then Ill happily cite the New Testament of the Holy Bible as my source.  Jesus quoted YVHV, claimed He was the one and only true God, and taught as a Rabbi.  He pointed out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and their lack of observance of the Torah, which is YHVH's Law, and taught the truth of the mosaic convenant. 

How you could possibly have missed this escapes me, considering its taught resolutely by anyone who teaches Christian theology, both at University or seminary.

"Classical or integrative" has no real meaning unless you tell us what you are talking about, considering orthodox Christian theology teaches that Christ observed YHVH as the one true God.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

yompf said:


> OP.  I don't believe in the god referred to in the christian Bible .  You mentioned the 10 commandments and Noah so I am assuming that is what you are talking about.     LOL I don't follow a religion. I believe in God and creation , and i prefer the term "source" ,so the "GOD" I believe in has NOTHING to do with what you are talking about.  Sorry.
> NOT EVERYONE BELIEVES IN THE GOD FROM THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE.
> So please take this into account.



I like that you do not like the genocidal son murderer Yahweh.

You said you believe, not have faith in, a God. Belief is usually based on facts. Do you have any to share or did you mean you have faith, which some say is belief without facts or evidence. Does you God (tell) you what to do?



yompf said:


> I personally believe religions to be bogus.  As well as stories in the Bible.  I believe in Jesus though. I have connected to him .  I think you do too right? Instead of rejecting "god" entirely, if you trust in Jesus, maybe let him know that you cannot except the god you have heard about, ask him to show you who or what God REALLY is.    I think it is a mistake and closed minded to reject a loving creator  simply because you didnt like the story in the Christian Bible .
> Maybe someone else can word that better, but anyway I wish you well in your journey and discovery .
> Much love bro....



I like one of the Jesus' in scriptures. Especially the esoteric mystic Jesus who is more Gnostic Christian than Christian. He is not the Rome created wimp that would have us kiss political/Roman a ss. 

The Jesus I like frees us from religions and governments while the Roman one just wants brain dead slaves.

See if you can like this Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded



AddictRecon said:


> Jesus worships the God of the OT, you claim to follow Christ, which means you are either a hypocrite, or a liar, take your pick, but you are internally inconsistent with your own beliefs.



Not so. I just believe parts of the bible you do not use.

Note how these exactly fit my belief, but not yours. You wish for slavery while I wish for freedom.


Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if thereforethine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come untohim, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn amongmany brethren.

These next are just for you.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away thekey of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering inye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through yourtradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Stop hindering thinkers and trying to make them as brain dead as you are. Shed your traditional genocidal son murdering God and grow your morality.



AddictRecon said:


> Assuming we are talking about Jesus of Nazareth, of the New Testament, the Torah keeping Jew from the first century who claimed to be the messiah prophesied by YHVH's prophets, then Ill happily cite the New Testament of the Holy Bible as my source.  Jesus quoted YVHV, claimed He was the one and only true God, and taught as a Rabbi.  He pointed out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and their lack of observance of the Torah, which is YHVH's Law, and taught the truth of the mosaic convenant.
> 
> How you could possibly have missed this escapes me, considering its taught resolutely by anyone who teaches Christian theology, both at University or seminary.
> 
> "Classical or integrative" has no real meaning unless you tell us what you are talking about, considering orthodox Christian theology teaches that Christ observed YHVH as the one true God.



Lot's of your B.S. here but where are the quote you said were forthcoming?

Regards
DL


----------



## AddictRecon

Gnostic Bishop, considering you are arguing for an entirely fictional 'gnostic jesus' and I am contending for Jesus Christ, the Son of God found in the Holy Scriptures, I don't really have anything to argue about, you already made my point for me, as you reject the Jesus of the Bible in favor of the now historically defunct and thoroughly debunked gnostic version of Jesus which was the entire point of our initial discourse, you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble lol..

Considering you freely admit you believe in a 'different jesus' which I don't subscribe to, the only thing for me to say is, well.. Ill have a coke.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

*If you have ever had negative thoughts about Yahweh, you are close to a Gnostic Chris*

If you have ever had negative thoughts about Yahweh, you areclose to a Gnostic Christian.

You have shown that you can think freely and have a decentmoral sense as compared to Christians and their less than moral sense thatallows them to adore a genocidal God.

John Lennon, “It seems to me that the only true Christianswere the Gnostics,”

In fact, many think that the best Christians are GnosticChristians. Even if you are an atheist, you are likely a better Christian thanmost Christians as their morals have been corrupted by their beliefs enough tohave them adore a vile genocidal God that Gnostic Christians call demiurge. Ina sense, not that she exists, but demiurge is equivalent to Satan.

Please remember that Gnostic Christians so not hold anysupernatural beliefs and religiously speaking, create much more peaceful peoplethan Christians. The Cathars were a good example of this truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ptNcSYo7k4

http://thegodabovegod.com/difference-gnostic-christian/

http://thegodabovegod.com/gnostic/

Are you close to a Gnostic Christian in how you can thinkfreely and morally? 

Regards
DL


----------



## Foreigner

Thread merged with main megathread.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Foreigner said:


> Thread merged with main megathread.



You do know that that basically kills it. Right?

That being the case, I may as well lose my link to your site.

Is that what you want?

Regards
DL


----------



## Xorkoth

We felt that your threads were too numerous and similar to warrant separate threads for each.  It's been done in this forum for others before as well as in other forums.  Do what you have to do, feel free to keep posting ideas in here.


----------



## Gnostic Bishop

Xorkoth said:


> We felt that your threads were too numerous and similar to warrant separate threads for each.  It's been done in this forum for others before as well as in other forums.  Do what you have to do, feel free to keep posting ideas in here.



Oops. Lost my link.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Gnostic Bishop said:
			
		

> Oops. Lost my link.



Gnostic Bishop was a rare bird, that's for sure. I might have been one of the few people here who actually wanted to learn more about Gnostic Christianity but the weird threads that went like...



			
				mock GB thread said:
			
		

> Jesus kills gay people
> gay people are happy
> therefore Jesus hates happiness and is the demiurge
> would you sell your soul to an unhappy God?
> etc, etc



kinda got in the way. In attempting to mock Christians and Islamist beliefs he was mocking Gnostic Christianity too because you never knew which Jesus or which God he was talking about. Then you poke him a bit and you realize he actually holds a lot of evolved beliefs about spiritual matters. I don't get it. Oh well, bye GB.


----------



## Foreigner

Gnostic Bishop said:


> You do know that that basically kills it. Right?
> 
> That being the case, I may as well lose my link to your site.
> 
> Is that what you want?
> 
> Regards
> DL



Popular subjects or numerous threads of the same theme get merged into megathreads. It's a way to keep the sub-forums tidy and organized and mods do it all over BL. In your case there were 4-5 threads all talking about different aspects of gnosticism, plus another created after this megathread, and we felt the need to reign it in.

If you don't want to come here anymore that's your choice but we won't be changing the policy. In the future, you would also gain more traction with the mods if you sent your complaints by PM rather than derailing a thread to do it. Cheers.


----------



## Shrooms00087

Gnostic Bishop said:


> I cannot accept that God is greater than man because I think we have created all the Gods.



So there's a few things wrong with this.

I) Just because I see a lemon and then assign the word lemon to the Object of thought does not mean I created neither the meaning for the word or that the word became flesh through authoritative interpretation of said meaning. You must first acknowledge that before there was word there was absolute nothingness for which we can neither understand or ascribe meaning which doesn't mean we cannot name it.

II) If you're into the whole, "As above so Below" what you're saying is that since I am Man I can not accept a greater attribute or cause of myself. Again to reiterate what you're saying is that I cannot aspire to be better because the terms of what constitutes 'better' is a quibble between God and Man.

III) Also from personal experience I can say God is a prick but what I lack in kindness or in Grace I can also say that the prick gets the job done well enough.


----------



## hail_satan

agreed


----------



## Captainsafety

God loved the world.  He only needed one son to pay for our sins.  Jesus lived as one of us so he could see the world through human eyes.  He paid our debt.  We are not worthy to live in god's perfect grace because we chose to turn away from him from the beginning.  We are all sinners and there is no room for sin in heaven.  If he made us perfect then we wouldn't have choice.  He created us to be with him.  To love and worship him.  How can you love someone without choosing to.  So he made alot of us so those who believe in him will have ever lasting life with him.  Those who do not will burn up in the lake of fire and face their death.  He is sad that this is what we chose but its the only way to have our true love.  He doesnt want slaves.  He wants the love that he has given us to come back to him.  He already has angels.  We are his most loved creation.


----------



## Xorkoth

Captainsafety said:


> We are not worthy to live in god's perfect grace because we chose to turn away from him from the beginning.



No I didn't.  I wasn't even alive then...


----------



## tokezu

Captainsafety said:


> God loved the world.  He only needed one son to pay for our sins.  Jesus lived as one of us so he could see the world through human eyes.  He paid our debt.  We are not worthy to live in god's perfect grace because we chose to turn away from him from the beginning.  We are all sinners and there is no room for sin in heaven.  If he made us perfect then we wouldn't have choice.  He created us to be with him.  To love and worship him.  How can you love someone without choosing to.  So he made alot of us so those who believe in him will have ever lasting life with him.  Those who do not will burn up in the lake of fire and face their death.  He is sad that this is what we chose but its the only way to have our true love.  He doesnt want slaves.  He wants the love that he has given us to come back to him.  He already has angels.*  We are his most loved creation.*



Because what do you do when you love somebody? You threaten them with eternal damnation, unless they do exactly what they are told! Sorry, but what you are describing sounds more like the position of a house slave who gets to live in relative comfort because he's learned to always say 'please' and 'thank you'. If I am really not worthy of him (by his design, mind you), then he is not worthy of me either.

And how did he 'pay' for our sins anyway? It's not like it cost him anything. Reminds me of landlord that finally drops a bogus claim and then expects gratitude for that.


----------



## Captainsafety

He went to hell for 1000 yrs.  He created us to love him.  He was alone.  The only way for us to choose him is to have a choice.  Its like purifying gold.  When you extract gold from the ground it is not pure.  By burning away the conatiminates you end up with pure gold.  So he let us choose.  We can be gold or contaminates.  If we choose to be contaminates then we must be burned away to allow humanity to be pure.  If you create something that is not what you wanted it to be then you have the right to destroy it.  He wants us to be holy and pure but gave us the option to do what we want.  If we do whatever we want without regard for him then we will die.  If we choose to live with him then we will live forever because through him we have been made worthy.  I don't know why he chose to pay our price in hell.  I don't know why he did anything really.  But i am a simple human.  He knows all.  Time is a human illusion.  You have the right to believe what you want.  I hope you decide to have a better attitude towards him and give his love a chance.  All you have to do is stop trying to out think him.  Be honest with yourself as to what the hole in your life is.  It is god.  If you really look for answers and actually read the bible a few times and pray for understanding then you will start to see a bigger picture than just doing what you want.  He is no landlord.  He is our master and creator.  We were made for one thing.  To worship god.  If we choose not to then what use are we?


----------



## tokezu

The problem is that once you have given someone an incentive to love you, you have made it impossible for them to love sincerely. It reminds me of my grandmother who used to hand me some money whenever I saw her and then immediately said "But you could really visit me more often". Of course I did visit her every now and then, but that way neither of us ever really knew if I would have done so without the money and that little doubt always stays in the back of your mind. Real love is something that you "do" just because... So if god really loves us, then he will place no conditions on that love.

Btw you seem awfully sure about what god wants. You couldn't possibly be mistaken? I mean your just "a simple human" right?


----------



## Captainsafety

I could easily be mistaken.  Just giving my take.  He can still love us and erase us if we choose to be a waste.  Without choice we would just be drones.  Parents punish children they love and sometimes have to cut them off if they are using the parents love to enable their  own demise.  Especially if that child is taking their other kids down with them.  Love is tough.  Not all roses and sunshine.  If something you love is destroying the others that you love then sometimes you have to solve the problem the hard way.  When we go against god and lead others in the same direction.  We are the problem.


----------



## tokezu

Captainsafety said:


> I could easily be mistaken.  Just giving my take.


Great, me too.  I find it shocking how many people have trouble admitting that.



Captainsafety said:


> He can still love us and erase us if we choose to be a waste.  Without choice we would just be drones.  Parents punish children they love and sometimes have to cut them off if they are using the parents love to enable their  own demise.  Especially if that child is taking their other kids down with them.  Love is tough.  Not all roses and sunshine.  If something you love is destroying the others that you love then sometimes you have to solve the problem the hard way.  When we go against god and lead others in the same direction.


Do you mean that "This will hurt me more than it will hurt you" kind of love that is held up as an excuse for corporal punishment of children? Yeah I have heard that before. And no that is not love, that is what we call violence.



Captainsafety said:


> We are the problem.


Well, that's a self fulfilling prophecy if I have ever seen one!


----------



## Captainsafety

For me to claim I'm 100% correct would be crazy.  With my limeted knowledge of the universe i don't have a way to know much.  But this is how I feel and this view has gotten me through alot.  If anyone takes anything from my beliefs and gets closer with god then having the less popular view is worth it.  Especially if i'm right.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

I haven't read this whole thread by any means and I've been gone awhile but I got interested in the Gnostics when I heard about Sophia, Archons and the idea of the Demiurge (false god of the old testament etc. ) and being soul trapped here on earth.  Has that been covered in this thread because that's some wild stuff and goes along vaguely with the people who say that like in NDEs going into the tunnel and the white light is a soul trap to keep you reincarnating back into a prison planet where we are being used as fuel, as in the Matrix.  I know that that last part was not Gnosticism proper but I actually got on to Gnosticism by becoming interested in NDEs. Something about NDEs felt wrong to me and I found sites like "Tricked by the Light" that said we were created and genetically altered so we wouldn't threaten our creator (s). That kind of sounded wild but it possibly answered a question that has bugged me for the last 50 years. * Why if we can go to the moon, create a computer or AI, and a million other amazing things can't we ever get along with each other? Why do we make the same emotional blunders that lead to repression, war, hate etc. and never ever learn from our mistakes. As if we were designed with a brain that was meant to keep us at odds so we would never work together and reach our full potential. * Like in the old testament where it says something like we were becoming like the god(s) themselves and that was a threat to them.


----------



## Xorkoth

Cosmic Trigger said:


> * Why if we can go to the moon, create a computer or AI, and a million other amazing things can't we ever get along with each other? Why do we make the same emotional blunders that lead to repression, war, hate etc. and never ever learn from our mistakes. As if we were designed with a brain that was meant to keep us at odds so we would never work together and reach our full potential. *



I think simple biological hardware explains that.  As a species we actually get along remarkable well compared to other species of mammals.  Not all of them but most.  Our closest living relatives are chimpanzees, and they are very warlike.  Unfortunately, our ancestry causes us, as a whole, to be tribal and combative with each other, except for those we consider in our tribe.  I mean it could be some greater explanation but that one makes sense to me.  I don't like it, and not everyone is that way, but there it is.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

OK but we seem to learn from all our technological mistakes and continue to evolve our systems. Yet on the emotional front there seems to have been no emotional evolution over our human history. That just seems strange to me. Maybe you're right and it's just because somehow I have evolved on that level and can see every ignorant thing we humans do to keep us in an eternal battle with each other.  I have no enemies and I find many emotional issues that freak most people out to be something I want to confront and work on. What's up with that? Are some of us just anomalies? If that's so then I want off this planet however that can happen. I'm sick of seeing so much human suffering.


----------



## JGrimez

Not sure what the consensus is here on channeled material, but this  comes from a 'group' in the 'future' (6th density - we exist in 3rd):



> 22/Oct/94
> 
> Q: (L) During a previous reading we asked several questions about  Jesus of Nazareth known as the Christ. The question was asked: "Was  Jesus special, that is, Christed, in some way?" The answer came back  was: "Quick exalted; wars; civil entrancement. Zindar council." I would  like to know the meaning of these references.
> 
> A: Quick exalted refers to a sudden boost of awareness level as related  to your previous questions about knowledge. Sometimes that acquisition  can occur in a surge and sometimes this is referred to as illumination.  Jesus acquired his knowledge by having complete faith in his ability to  acquire the knowledge from a higher source. This faith caused an equal  balancing interaction with higher sources, which allowed him to gain  supreme knowledge simply by having that faith. Remember that the  resources for the acquisition of knowledge in the space/time ere of  Christ were much more limited than they are now. There were few options  open for acquiring true knowledge except total and complete faith. And  this one was instilled with the awareness that total and complete faith  would cause dramatic and spectacular acquisition of knowledge; also  would cause dramatic and spectacular progression of the soul being.  Therefore, the faith was felt, the knowledge was received.
> 
> Q: (L) What was the source of the knowledge?
> 
> A: The source was the sixth level of density which is where we reside and we also were involved in that as well.
> 
> Q: (L) What does the term "Civil entrancement" mean?
> 
> A: Civil entrancement is a complete balancing of one's useful energies  to a level where there is no experiencing of over balancing on the  positive or negative side which is preferable for meditation in a mass  form.
> 
> Q: (L) What is the Zendar Council?
> 
> A: Zendar Council is a sixth level density council which spans both  physical and ethereal realms and which oversees dramatic development  points at various civilizational sectors in lower density levels.
> 
> Q: (L) I would like you to expound a bit on the life of Christ in terms  of chronology of events. Could you tell us about his understanding about  himself, his interaction with higher sources, his state of being  Christed, and what was the true work he came her to do and how did he  accomplish it?
> 
> A: His awareness of who and what he was gradually came as he grew. He  was taught by us through his faith as described previously. And you  should have faith as well because you would find things would come to  you as "knowings" more often than even now. Jesus awareness of his  mission and his actions pertaining to it were part of the natural  progression of his growth and development. The information about his  "miracles" has been largely corrupted by writings which have been passed  down after the actual event period. Most of these writings are by  entities who wish to confuse and corrupt all humanity for previously  stated purposes. The idea was that if one perceived Jesus as performing  physical miracles, then your entire understanding of what the life  experience here on earth and on this plane is, and the meaning for it  all, is also corrupted and the knowledge is blocked which is the goal of  those who have done this. Jesus' purpose and plan was to teach  knowledge to all who sought but did not have the strength to express as  great a level of faith as he had to acquire the knowledge as he did from  higher sources. If they were open and willing to learn they could be  taught by hearing. He had only very limited success in imparting faith  to others because faith comes solely from within and that is one of the  most difficult things for beings on your plane to acquire.
> 
> Q: (L) Now, it has been discussed before that Jesus was probably the  product of a genetically selected impregnation, could you comment on  this and why this would be.
> 
> A: There was no genetic selection of the impregnation. That is incorrect.
> 
> Q: (L) Okay, then what was it?
> 
> A: It was a natural conception.
> 
> Q: (L) Well what I meant was that the person was selected to be the biological father.
> 
> A: Well, that is always the case in every single birth that occurs in your level of density.
> 
> Q: (L) Could you comment on the idea that is implicit in this that Jesus was illegitimate?
> 
> A: Obviously if one feels that this would put a shadow or stain on him  in some way, or the knowledge that he imparted, then you have not been  paying attention. Did you not hear what was said about obsession as  opposed to knowledge? Those who are truly, within themselves, at all  points of development, trying to seek greater knowledge, will not be  blocked by any ideas relating to illegitimacy as you refer to it. Those  who are obsessed, by choice, rather than trying to seek true knowledge,  will indeed be blocked at that point. It is all up to the choice of the  individual. If you choose to develop and gain knowledge then you are  never blocked or obsessed at any point about anything ever. However if  you choose to limit your knowledge or become obsessed then you are  constantly finding yourself blocked and this will manifest in all your  life experiences. That is part of the individual soul development  pattern. It is all based on choice. Therefore it is not possible for you  to interfere with another's choice to acquire knowledge or not and how  it is or is not done. There is no need to try to alter another's  perceptions because that would be to interfere with free will. If one  chooses to be obsessed rather than to be illumined, that is their  choice!


----------



## JGrimez

Some more relevant excerpts:



> 25/Oct/94
> Q: (L) What is the basis of the Gnostic texts such as the apocryphon of John?
> A: Ancient atheists.





> 07/Sep/13
> Let's be explicit: Was there a separate individual 2000 years ago that  taught spiritual truths to people that were close to Gnostic teachings,  etc. around the Roman Empire/Middle Eastern area that was NOT Caesar,  that was in some small way incorporated into Caesar's life?
> A: Very small way, and not a teacher as you describe, but a rebel fighter against Rome.
> Q: (P)So the idea of Jesus People as being social critics is probably closest...
> A: Yes
> Q: (A) And it's not somebody who went through history or is recorded in any way.
> A: Some clues in Josephus, the "father" of Jesus.


----------

