# The rise in abuse of power, overstepping of bounds, and unbalanced perspectives on BL



## Blue_Phlame

This is an open letter to all readers of Bluelight - lurkers, new-members, regulars, staff and everyone else who reads these forums.

There is an inadequate level of checks-and-balances on Bluelight that regulate the actions of some staff members. Does anyone else think that occurrences of unfair decisions made at the expense of members who do not share the same ideological perspective have become increasingly more commonplace?  The board's general disposition has shifted heavily to one side, and as a consequence, started ostracizing members who do not share the same ideals. 

Its clear to me that this forum no longer holds values that encourage impartial and non-partisan perspectives in its staff.


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## swilow

The below is really just my opinion about this as a Bluelighter and staff member. 



Blue_Phlame said:


> There is an inadequate level of checks-and-balances on Bluelight that regulate the actions of some staff members.



That really isn't true. As you should be aware as a staff member here, there is pretty much always a lot of discussion amongst us about various contentions issues, be they contemporary political issues or more Bluelight-specific. Really, before any big or important decision is made, there is an attempt at consensus; this happens both amongst staff in general, and amongst the actual mods and senior mods of each forum. In that sense, your commentary is simply not factual.

I've been a moderator here for around 10 years or so, and if anything there is _more_ discussion now (sometimes endless discussion  :D) than I can recall in the past. 



> Does anyone else think that occurrences of unfair decisions made at the expense of members who do not share the same ideological perspective have become increasingly more commonplace?  The board's general disposition has shifted heavily to one side, and as a consequence, started ostracizing members who do not share the same ideals.



You ask a loaded question, it appears that you are fishing for negative commentary here. Given that you haven't made any effort to substantiate what you are saying, I don't feeling you are raising this issue with productive intentions.

The fact is that ideology in general does _not_ ever cause enactment of disciplinary proceedings; however, the _expressing_ of certain ideologies is forbidden by the Bluelight User Agreement and more specifically, forum rules. By this, I mean _comments and content_ that are racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. _It is not the views themselves, it is expressing them in content on this website_. This is a harm reduction website that is trying to provide harm reduction information to all earthly drug users- this means that ideally, Bluelight could be accessed by anyone in the world. There is value in doing what we can to attract and keep as many members as possible to keep more drug users safe-r, and it is generally understood that allowing certain views to be expressed here is going to turn people away. To my mind, that runs entirely counter to the aim of Bluelight. To increase safe practises amongst drug users of all nationalities, we have to forbid certain sorts of posts, but literally 99.99999999% of all other possible comments that could forseeably are allowed. No-one ever seems to mention that.

No-one is banned for being racist (or whatever), people are banned for expressing their racism. There are more than enough places on the internet where you can discuss whatever you want, Bluelight isn't one of them. And the reasoning is solid. 



> Its clear to me that this forum no longer holds values that encourage impartial and non-partisan perspectives in its staff.



There are a wide variety of political views held by staff members, from hard left to libertarian to right-wing/conservative. Hell, a previous admin was decidedly far-right. On Bluelight, he still upheld views that were probably against his own personal IRL opinions because that is what being impartial is. 

I'm sure that we could all do better, of course. Its hard to not let your own feelings influence things, but its always worth trying to achieve neutrality of sorts. Hopefully, any contributors to this thread try to understand that and offer constructive feedback. 

Blue_Phlame, I would appreciate _your_ post as constructive if you had put more effort into it but it seems more like a somewhat confused general spray at people you disagree with personally. Irony abounds.


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## zephyr

Blue_Phlame said:


> This is an open letter to all readers of Bluelight - lurkers, new-members, regulars, staff and everyone else who reads these forums.
> 
> There is an inadequate level of checks-and-balances on Bluelight that regulate the actions of some staff members. Does anyone else think that occurrences of unfair decisions made at the expense of members who do not share the same ideological perspective have become increasingly more commonplace?  The board's general disposition has shifted heavily to one side, and as a consequence, started ostracizing members who do not share the same ideals.
> 
> Its clear to me that this forum no longer holds values that encourage impartial and non-partisan perspectives in its staff.



Yeah, there has been a somewhat gradual shift in this place over the last few years.

There's always been a cyclical effect in how this olace is run and participated in.

However lately the mods and staff are disconnected from what remains of the community more than ever.  Your decisions are clearly for your own self interest and no one elses.

Good luck with this.

Its a big pile of absolute bullshit that bl staff have little regard for their roots.

You have no reason to exist without traffic.

Think about it .


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## spacejunk

Let us speak plainly and call this thread exactly what it is; a personal beef made public.

Blue phlame, you had the opportunity to apply for a position on senior staff - and if you had, you would have probably been accepted.
But since then you've been going out of your way to undermine staff and complain about people on staff you don't like.

That's too bad.

You had your opportunity to step up - but you've chosen to snipe in the sidelines.  

So i guess my question is - why haven't you stepped down?

This thread isn't about bluelight - it's about the OP's immature attitude and general belligerence.


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## zephyr

It should not matter if you are staff or not

It should not matter if you are senior staff or not.

There was a time when all of us had Comraderie and all seemed to communicate with an open forum and now there is not.

The concern is shared.

It was fun when any and all used the public forums but now theres no real interaction.  Well there is a bit but not like there once was.

It would be interesting to compare  the traffic in staff to public and see where staff make their presence known more.

Individual decisions on individual members is distinctly obvious, the effect on the rest of us probably isnt.

The report posts area is meant for as clear discussion and fair decisions as possible considering how staff do not want transparency.

If a mod decision is to not be questioned then that is not the original intent of that area.

Again I suggest staff read the original thread TLB posted about the infraction system and see how its changed for the worse.

Personal beef or no, I dont care.  Its about time someone on staff had the balls to question the system in public  .


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## spacejunk

Staff are actually doing great, as is the forum more generally.

I get a lot out of it, as do many other people.

It's a shame some people are too bitter to see the bigger picture, but it's not something i lose sleep over.
They're massively outnumbered by people who contribute positively to this community, which is worth considering for what it is.


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## zephyr

I had a mate on staff many years ago who let me have a peek in staff and it was basically boring and just for buisness without any of the subs except wobl.

The social aspect and the majority of postings were done out in public.


Its okay to discuss problems and issues bl related and okay to bring up topics that may cause angst,  thats what communication is and shouldn't there be some actual discussion about bl with bl ?

Because bl is not just about staff.  If it is,  its an expensive way to go about having a private forum.


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## Jabberwocky

Blue_Phlame said:


> This is an open letter to all readers of Bluelight - lurkers, new-members, regulars, staff and everyone else who reads these forums.
> 
> There is an inadequate level of checks-and-balances on Bluelight that regulate the actions of some staff members. Does anyone else think that occurrences of unfair decisions made at the expense of members who do not share the same ideological perspective have become increasingly more commonplace?  The board's general disposition has shifted heavily to one side, and as a consequence, started ostracizing members who do not share the same ideals.
> 
> Its clear to me that this forum no longer holds values that encourage impartial and non-partisan perspectives in its staff.



You have said your intentions are good. I’m open to believing that. But I have to ask...

What are your intentions with BL? To create endless drama we have to waste all our time and effort cleaning up? Or something else? Please do be concrete, because valuing fairness anyone can do, including folks like Hitler and Osama Bin Laden. 



swilow said:


> The below is really just my opinion about this as a Bluelighter and staff member.
> 
> 
> 
> That really isn't true. As you should be aware as a staff member here, there is pretty much always a lot of discussion amongst us about various contentions issues, be they contemporary political issues or more Bluelight-specific. Really, before any big or important decision is made, there is an attempt at consensus; this happens both amongst staff in general, and amongst the actual mods and senior mods of each forum. In that sense, your commentary is simply not factual.
> 
> I've been a moderator here for around 10 years or so, and if anything there is _more_ discussion now (sometimes endless discussion  :D) than I can recall in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> You ask a loaded question, it appears that you are fishing for negative commentary here. Given that you haven't made any effort to substantiate what you are saying, I don't feeling you are raising this issue with productive intentions.
> 
> The fact is that ideology in general does _not_ ever cause enactment of disciplinary proceedings; however, the _expressing_ of certain ideologies is forbidden by the Bluelight User Agreement and more specifically, forum rules. By this, I mean _comments and content_ that are racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. _It is not the views themselves, it is expressing them in content on this website_. This is a harm reduction website that is trying to provide harm reduction information to all earthly drug users- this means that ideally, Bluelight could be accessed by anyone in the world. There is value in doing what we can to attract and keep as many members as possible to keep more drug users safe-r, and it is generally understood that allowing certain views to be expressed here is going to turn people away. To my mind, that runs entirely counter to the aim of Bluelight. To increase safe practises amongst drug users of all nationalities, we have to forbid certain sorts of posts, but literally 99.99999999% of all other possible comments that could forseeably are allowed. No-one ever seems to mention that.
> 
> No-one is banned for being racist (or whatever), people are banned for expressing their racism. There are more than enough places on the internet where you can discuss whatever you want, Bluelight isn't one of them. And the reasoning is solid.
> 
> 
> 
> There are a wide variety of political views held by staff members, from hard left to libertarian to right-wing/conservative. Hell, a previous admin was decidedly far-right. On Bluelight, he still upheld views that were probably against his own personal IRL opinions because that is what being impartial is.
> 
> I'm sure that we could all do better, of course. Its hard to not let your own feelings influence things, but its always worth trying to achieve neutrality of sorts. Hopefully, any contributors to this thread try to understand that and offer constructive feedback.
> 
> Blue_Phlame, I would appreciate _your_ post as constructive if you had put more effort into it but it seems more like a somewhat confused general spray at people you disagree with personally. Irony abounds.



Very well said.


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## mal3volent

spacejunk said:


> Let us speak plainly and call this thread exactly what it is; a personal beef made public.



Yeah, really.

B_P, you are clearly trying to make a pretty big statement. Abuse of power is a pretty provocative accusation... yet the content of your actual post is rather vague and impotent. "Non-partisan" perspectives? That doesn't even make sense. A perspective is a point of view. The whole idea of having a point of view is to establish your own personal ideals. 

The question of impartiality is about fairness. It seems pretty fair to me for a community to have an established set of guidelines that everyone is expected to follow, regardless of whether they're a Greenlighter or an admin. The "A" in BLUA does stand for agreement, after all. To post here, you have to be a part of that agreement. If you don't like the idea of harm reduction and creating an environment where everyone feels comfortable and welcome, you don't have to agree.

Swilow really nailed it, I think. Racists and homophobes really can post here. They don't even have to hide the fact that they are bigoted. What they can't do is post material that is flagrantly offensive and meant to antagonize. It's really that simple. 

So...honestly...what are you actually trying to say? You were feeling bold when you made the thread, so speak up and let everyone know exactly what it is that you're on about.


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## JessFR

Given how many political arguments I've had with mods on CE&P, personally I have a hard time believing there's any rampant censorship given that I've never felt censored.

I've occasionally seen a few questionable remarks by mods, but a handful of potentially poorly thought out comments over 5+ years really isn't very much. And I've seen more than a few posts that later got disappeared, and they've never been anything where i felt they were unapproved just because of the point of view. 

So, for me personally, I'm much more inclined to think that all this talk of censorship is just people taking it too far and saying hateful shit that was also political, then crying censorship when it's removed for being hateful or insulting claiming it was removed for its political position. 

Cause I've said plenty of controversial things, and had plenty of political arguments with mods. But of the 3 or so times I've had posts removed, all were because I'd lost it and insulted someone who'd pissed me off. And I knew it was coming the moment I posted it. 

I just don't buy it.


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## Felonious Monk

Jesus fuck, I left BL for a year thinking some of this personal BS would have died down by the time I got back.. but it seems like the sandy vagina crowd is holding the sand with the hope of growing pearls.



swilow said:


> You ask a loaded question, it appears that you are fishing for negative commentary here. Given that you haven't made any effort to substantiate what you are saying, I don't feeling you are raising this issue with productive intentions.



This.  If you have a problem specify specific things which happened and what you would like to see happen differently.

Otherwise, it absolutely seems like some malicious shit-stirring with no intention of adding to beneficial discussion.  So be a positive change or resign your mod stick, cause it seems like with the exception of zephyr the general consensus is there's no basis to this besides some personal drama.

PS. To answer the question posed in the OP.  No.  The only thing it seems to me is that there's always one or two staff members who think BL is some kind of weird conspiracy to silence their opinions.... despite being run by volunteers and these whiners generally being some of the more prolific posters (or mods)


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## Jabberwocky

JessFR said:


> Given how many political arguments I've had with mods on CE&P, personally I have a hard time believing there's any rampant censorship given that I've never felt censored.
> 
> I've occasionally seen a few questionable remarks by mods, but a handful of potentially poorly thought out comments over 5+ years really isn't very much. And I've seen more than a few posts that later got disappeared, and they've never been anything where i felt they were unapproved just because of the point of view.
> 
> So, for me personally, I'm much more inclined to think that all this talk of censorship is just people taking it too far and saying hateful shit that was also political, then crying censorship when it's removed for being hateful or insulting claiming it was removed for its political position.
> 
> Cause I've said plenty of controversial things, and had plenty of political arguments with mods. But of the 3 or so times I've had posts removed, all were because I'd lost it and insulted someone who'd pissed me off. And I knew it was coming the moment I posted it.
> 
> I just don't buy it.



Precisely this


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## zephyr

Its not suprising that any criticical observation given to anyone in a position of power is actually taken on board and noted as possibly worth noting.

I dont know if jess or myself ir anyone else are a subject of discussion behind closed doors like other people who can fart in the wrong direction and get banned.

Yes some decisions are very questionable indeed,  even worse is the refusal to  admit any mistake or misjudgement.

Swillow has done this a few times, hez not the only one.  I wouldnt trust his judgement if you paid me.

No offense bro.


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## spacejunk

When people moan constantly, i'm not sure why they expect people will take all of their "suggestions" seriously.

Zeph, you've been incredibly critical of everyone since you stepped down, and a lot of your criticisms have been frankly ridiculous.  
Message boards are not as popular as they were 10+ years ago, which lots of these "suggestions", "criticisms" and rants fail to acknowledge, when you blame staff for the lack of traffic in social forums.
You keep insinuating that we deliberately alienate people, which is just nonsense.

But i've explained this to you several times, and you still bring it up all the time.
So who isn't listening here?  
Communication is a two-way street, and i've told you the same thing so many times, but still you act like it's mods' fault that bluelight isn't the same as it was 12 years ago. 

You're not being reasonable by continually blaming, and continually insulting.
Like blue phlame, you _had_ a perfect opportunity to help us make whatever changes you thought appropriate, but instead you've just piled criticism and negativity on those of us that do volunteer to keep bluelight going.

As for the comment about swilow - that's particularly diasappointing.
He's a fantastic mod who does a great job.  
I have _a lot _of faith in him, as (as far as i know) does everyone else who give up their time to help run this place. 

CE&P is a really tough gig and he doesn't deserve this kind of rude, childish bullshit.

Bluelight doesn't, in my opinion, suffer from "abuse of power"  (lol "power" - jesus 8)) - which is one of the reasons this is a disingenuous attempt at stirring complaints. 
The bluelighters who have never been a mod only have to take blue_phlame's word that there is anything wrong with the way staff makes decisions. 
Which is why it was posted in a public subforum - and zephyr can always be counted on to stick the boot in to bluelight's staff. 
It's a shame you guys feel this way, but i think it's pretty obvious to me that we cannot please everyone - and we get criticised whatever we do.


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## Droppersneck

Beeps, I love you man, you have always been a fair and reasonable poster. The social justice movement and its need to suppress all dissent or anything considered ?offensive?, is not something a person that holds extremely liberal views is going to waiver on. These people do not understand the ironic, humor, or sarcasm.. Well maybe by definition, but not in the way you or me get them. Have you ever thought it?s time to move on? It?s 2018 and many of us have. PM me BP Or i may send you one a bit later. BL was great and I have a lot of friends from here, but all things must come to an end. Also I beleive Alasdair wants to focus on HR, so understandable he doesn?t want a 4chan Esk board full of vulgarities scaring off advertisers/ survey people. It took me forever to understand this, but once I did things were good. Just PM me


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## alasdairm

^ if we, the evil monsters that we are, wanted to suppress "_all dissent_" how is this thread even visible and how are you able to respond?

there's absolutely no issue with b_p asking these questions and i'm interested to read a full spectrum of responses.

but when persistent troublemakers continually and deliberately post content they know will inflame - and which is against the guidelines and/or blua - then, when the content is removed and they're infracted, turn around and play the martyr and cry oppression and censorship, well, you just lose me. heard it before. not interested.

the sad, and not a little ironic, thing is that these time-wasters draw attention from genuine cases which we're more than happy to discuss.

alasdair


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## Droppersneck

^no one is calling you Evil monsters. You people are a reality of today and there is nothing wrong with these people or their forums. Did you miss the part where I said that I understand why you don’t want non PC ideas/thoughts posted here? If anything I’m on your side here. All I’m saying is for folks to vote with their feet. The lounge got ravaged by the extremely liberal changes to the BLUA and its enforcement so that this place could be more suitible for the mainstream and potential advertisers(that makes perfect sense)I think BP is just not very good with change and moving on. As most of you know it took me a while to move on, but it’s the only way, and there are greener pastures for those that just want to shit post/joke around/ talk about drugs in a more candid way.


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## mal3volent

Yeah, are people mad because BL isn't the Wild West where anyone can say anything without repercussions? What specific actions has any mod taken that you feel is unjust? Do you really think posting racist shit is okay?

its crazy how much leniency the Lounge has been given over the years. But we remove some incontrovertibly racist bullshit and now, all of a sudden, it's no fun anymore? 

If you really care about Bluelight, you would participate in the conversation honestly. Give us ideas of how to make it better that doesn't involve allowing racist or bigoted material to go unaddressed.


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## alasdairm

^ amen.

qalasdair


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## tathra

Droppersneck said:


> All I’m saying is for folks to vote with their feet. The lounge got ravaged by the extremely liberal changes to the BLUA and its enforcement so that this place could be more suitible for the mainstream and potential advertisers(that makes perfect sense).



harm reduction becoming mainstream is one of the greatest things i hope to see in my life.  what's being asked of users is no different than having separate forums for different subjects.  certain content is appropriate in certain places and inappropriate in others, no different from how politics isn't appropriate to discuss in the focus forums and drugs aren't appropriate in the community forums.  people who we know understand this (because we know they understand the concepts of subforums and thus keeping appropriate topics in appropriate places, and the concept of inappropriateness) but actively choose to ignore it are willingly creating problems for the community. 

communities aren't static, and change over time; nothing stays the same way forever.  inevitably some people will disagree with the changes that happen over time or not understand the reason behind them, but they dont own the community and aren't its dictator, selfishly pretending that they are doesn't help anyone.


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## Droppersneck

Hahahaha I Just said what you posted tathra. Great minds think alike 


mal3volent said:


> Yeah, are people mad because BL isn't the Wild West where anyone can say anything without repercussions? What specific actions has any mod taken that you feel is unjust? Do you really think posting racist shit is okay?
> 
> its crazy how much leniency the Lounge has been given over the years. But we remove some incontrovertibly racist bullshit and now, all of a sudden, it's no fun anymore?
> 
> If you really care about Bluelight, you would participate in the conversation honestly. Give us ideas of how to make it better that doesn't involve allowing racist or bigoted material to go unaddressed.



I’ve found there is no reasoning with liberals/people that think free speech is a dog whistle for hate speech. I hold zero racist views myself but I’m an ironic egdelord that enjoys humor and the ability to say me piece. I appreciate what you guys are trying to do here, but it isn’t what originally attracted me to the board. You guys have evolved as will your user base. This isn’t a tit for tat, it’s just the reality of the internet. Same thing happened at a forum I post at on another site they went hard left and started banning everything to where it wasn’t fun to post at and became a circle jerk of people tattling on each other. So some mods including u/xnotch(the dude that created Minecraft) broke off and created a bad ass new sub based on more libertarian principles. Subsequently it’s a much more interesting/active place to post. 

Tldr I think your userbase will change and evolve with the BLUA. BP needs to realize this and either embrace or move on


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## alasdairm

still interested to understand how we're even having this discussion if "_all dissent_" is suppressed?



alasdair


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## Droppersneck

^ Maybe dissent was the wrong word. Tbf didn’t you guys just ban/delete a simple meme about censorship? If that’s not banning dissent idk what is


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## alasdairm

i agree. maybe it was the wrong word.

alasdair


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## tathra

Droppersneck said:


> You guys have evolved as will your user base.



drug users and their sub/countercultures have always been notoriously progressive and liberal, from hippies to ravers to whatever comes next.


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## spacejunk

Conservative politicians generally don't embrace harm reduction.  Harm reduction is a fairly radical idea to some people.

But it's kind of irrelevant - i think the bluelight numbers speak for themselves; the vast majority of bluelighters _aren't_ interested in posting content that our mods are obliged to "censor".

I'm personally more concerned about not alienating people that would be turned off by a culture of accepted bigotry or sexism or whatever. 
The forum is a better place for it, and i'm not making any apologies about that.

We're not suppressing anyone's right to be a prejudiced edgelord asshole elsewhere online, or in person.  
Bluelight's mods are just continuing to enforce rules that we all agreed to when registered to post here.


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## belligerent drunk

So not being a CE&P or TL regular, I've got a few questions.



Blue_Phlame said:


> Does anyone else think that occurrences of unfair decisions made at the expense of members who do not share the same ideological perspective have become increasingly more commonplace?



Despite being a mod with access to TPH and following most RPs plus other relevant threads, I have no idea what you're talking about; could you provide specific examples with sound reasoning as to why said decisions are unfair? Because worded like this, you're making a bold accusation at BL staff without any meat to your argument, and it reflects badly not only on you, but said staff in general, because you're a part of it.



> The board's general disposition has shifted heavily to one side, and as a consequence, started ostracizing members who do not share the same ideals.




Again, a bold statement with no evidence to back it up. Please do share instances where a member was infracted or similar _simply_ for holding certain views _as opposed_ to posting content in violation of BLUA, which as swilow stated, is something you agree to if you want to participate in this forum. Because unless you can produce evidence of such instances, what you may be dissatisfied with instead is the BLUA itself, in which case this is not an appropriate way of addressing your dissatisfaction.




> Its clear to me that this forum no longer holds values that encourage impartial and non-partisan perspectives in its staff.




Since I'm a relatively new mod, I have no pink nostalgia goggles to distort my view. For the year or so that I've been mod, there are exactly zero occasions that I've witnessed where either a member of the staff was discriminated based on their ideological views or similar, or the consensus was decided not in accordance with _objectively_ weighing mods' _objective_ arguments.

-------

With that said, all you've really done so far with this thread is some spray-n-pray fire with no concrete arguments to base it on; which is furthermore worsened by the fact that you're essentially attacking the mod team you're a part of. The mature way of going about it would be to post this in TPH first.

I also appreciate that alasdairm is open to this thread, which in itself is a clear sign that your arguments are at least partially incorrect; however, the way this thread's OP is worded, to me this doesn't seem like it's going to become anything but disgruntled BLers voicing their discontent for BL (and its mods) whether or not it's justified. It's just a platform for negativity IMO, and is not going to be representative of BLers in general because those who are happy with the way BL is run are much less likely to voice their opinion here than the ones who are not. And since we know that with any reasonable size of forum, there are going to be people that feel unhappy with it, this is meaningless as far as statistics go.


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## Droppersneck

tathra said:


> drug users and their sub/countercultures have always been notoriously progressive and liberal, from hippies to ravers to whatever comes next.



True, we just need Bp to realize this. Alt left authoritarian rule = the lounge of the old cannot exist. Just accept it and move on like all the rest of us have.


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## alasdairm

which part of continuing to post here and setting up an off-site forum to complain about bl and bl'ers for months and months on end is the moving on part?



alasdair


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## JessFR

Ooh ooh... Off site forum... That's a great idea. We can call it redlight. 

Then redlight and bluelight can hate each other and continually become more extreme.. But since both are basically drug harm reduction communities with extreme politics... For all their fighting and hate.. They're basically the same thing at the end of the day. 

I love it, it's so meta.


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## Droppersneck

Lol the only one that has a off-site forum set up to complain about BLUA/offilliated with BL is phrozen. There is the FB group too, and it’s a bit more like the site used to be before the exodus. I’m just trying to get BP to realize things, and get him to either goosestep or move on with the rest of us. I love the old lounge crew and have kept up with many folks. Bp is no different, I care more now than ever, with the passing of some of my closer friends from here.


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## tathra

belligerent drunk said:


> Again, a bold statement with no evidence to back it up. Please do share instances where a member was infracted or similar _simply_ for holding certain views _as opposed_ to posting content in violation of BLUA, which as swilow stated, is something you agree to if you want to participate in this forum. Because unless you can produce evidence of such instances, what you may be dissatisfied with instead is the BLUA itself, in which case this is not an appropriate way of addressing your dissatisfaction.



i can give an example of this _not_ happening.  there's a poster in CEP that admits to being an anti-semite*; if people got banned for their personal beliefs or worldview then he would have been permabanned right then and there.  instead he gets treated the same way as everyone else, he can post and say whatever he wants so long as it doesn't violate the BLUA or forum guidelines.

we're not here trying to be thought police or any nonsense like that, but we are here to promote civil discussion and ensure that anyone who wants to participate can no matter what their views and beliefs, so long as they stay within the rules they agreed to follow when they joined.  nobody gets special treatment, beneficial or detrimental, based on their beliefs, only in response to their actions.

*and the user has my respect for being honest about it instead of trying to lie about it and hide behind plausible deniability


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## JessFR

There was an exodus? I must not have been paying attention. But then I also never post in the lounge. 

Then there's all the people who don't post in either the lounge of CE&P who are just like "wtf is with all this politics and drama... This isn't a politics forum..."

And seriously.. It's easy to forget but... This really isn't a politics forum. It's a drug forum with a community subsection and a politics subsubsection below that. Honestly when you keep that in mind, and add in the general way drug users think.. That it's unbiased to any degree whatsoever is kinda impressive.


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## swilow

zephyr said:


> Swillow has done this a few times, hez not the only one.  I wouldnt trust his judgement if you paid me.
> 
> No offense bro.



That's fine, you don't need to trust my judgement anyway. 

I think you're being unfair and irrational as usual.  Any time these sort of bitchy threads come up I always spend time trying to explain why we do what we do. I've answered your questions many times over the last year in which you've been beating this dead horse. You can't be pleased. 

You gave up your role here because you couldn't hack the criticism and it says something appalling about you that you would do the same to others.


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## Jabberwocky

Why is droppers being allowed to promote his cesspool here? 

I’m not sure why this thread is still open either. Maybe we can close its once we have established it is just the usual crowd whining and complaining about a user agreement that doesn’t tolerate sexism, homophobia, perjorative attacks, and abusive behavior online?

I guess it’s because droppers et al have decided to “move on...”

To be clear, this is the part of BLUA ya’ll complaining about, correct?



			
				BLUA said:
			
		

> post or upload any content that victimizes, harasses, degrades, or intimidates an individual or group of individuals on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation or any other reason;



Why don’t you point out what parts of the BLUA folks are dissatisfied with. That would be more productive than your oh so subtle encouragement to join a fraudulent “community.”


----------



## alasdairm

toothpastedog said:


> Why is droppers being allowed to promote his cesspool here?


he's not but now the lies have started so i'm pretty much done with that.



toothpastedog said:


> I’m not sure why this thread is still open either.


regardless what some here - in this thread even - are saying, opinion is not being suppressed. that is clearly and demonstrably wrong.

i encourage and am interested in a spectrum of opinions so i'd invite people to continue posting their perspectives.

alasdair


----------



## Jabberwocky

Fair enough. I just can’t help but think that there hasn’t been any substantive discussion. I have a profound respect for how patient you’re being with this, but I am struggling to understand how it’s productive. 

I mean, these folks are out to prove a consipracy or something. Right, abuse of power...

And as you know, there hasn’t been any of that going on. How is a thread with disgruntled longuers voicing their resentments productive? 

I don’t think leaving this opens proves them wrong. Closing it wouldn’t prove them right either, because BP set it up disingenuously for the very start. 

If someone would be kind enough to show me an example of this abusive of power, please, for the love of all things sacred and profane, please do share it with us. 

Really looking forward to seeing some examples of “power” being abused here, especially on a systems level...

I mean, maybe by leaving it open we will get an obvious quorum of folks demonstrating that the one or two users (sadly, with one of them on still on staff)  who are screaming wolf are in fact full of it, but even then... 

Sigh... SSDD

Sorry, I just needed to vent. This is a ridiculous situation, and there aren’t any easy answers. 

The ironic thing is that it’s the very BLUA some people seem to dislike that allows this now ridiculous thread to continue. But the irony here is probably over their heads.


----------



## alasdairm

it's only been open for 2 days - others may have not yet found time to respond.

also, as if often the case with bl threads, the ratio of people who have read the thread to those who have posted is high - about 15:1. personally, my responses are not solely for the eyes of those posting in the thread.

alasdair


----------



## swilow

If folks sincerely think staff are abusing "power, tell us where and we can try to improve. If we don't know or aren't told, how can we change? So far the accusations have been vague and broad, I think a certain specificity is the only thing that will enable us to explain and/or modify our conduct.  

I'm gonna say that we aren't perfect but we are doing our best. There is always room for improvement though.  

But the silence from B_P is telling. Its clear this is a chuck a bomb and run away thread.  For that reason, I'd be for killing this topic.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Ah, good points Ali. Didn’t really think of that. That’s what getting frustrated get me  Time to take my own advice and take BL a little less seriously for the rest of the day. 

I think I’ll just do myself a favor and ignore this kafkaesque madness for 24 hrs and see what has unfolded.


----------



## Blue_Phlame

This discussion needed to happen, I'll respond to everyone's comments soon enough.


----------



## zephyr

Ok. You censored a meme that you took personally and refused to apologise despite objections .

Considering the post does not break guidelines and was actually ironically on point, you both just proved you abused your powers doing so and also acted like a total ass about it.


Also after being privy to the email exchange between staff and liquid method you also screwed up there big time.  You really did.


You lie about having ip matches for alts.  You ban on suspicion only which is crap and never admit you are wrong.


Also bls blatant lack of handling anything to do with the lounge.  Nice one guys.  Real great.  Thanks for that. 

Basically you guys mess up, dont listen to each other, dont have any open discussions with members without either manufacturing a banal response in staff, lose your shit and close it down or are in any way truthful anymore.  Its too frustrating even bothering to talk to you, no wonder people who have been happily blrs for years crack the shits and dont care about you at all anymore.

Easier to talk behind our back innit?  What are you- thirteen?


What beepers issue is,  Im pretty sure he would have tried discussing this in staff so its telling he brought this up here.

Just cut the crap and stop pretending its all good and well back there and get your shit together bl . Jeez .


----------



## tathra

toothpastedog said:


> I’m not sure why this thread is still open either. Maybe we can close its once we have established it is just the usual crowd whining and complaining about a user agreement that doesn’t tolerate sexism, homophobia, perjorative attacks, and abusive behavior online?



_constructive_ criticism is always welcome and even encouraged; if we're doing a poor job or people see areas where we could make improvements, such suggestions are always welcome.  there is, however, a huge difference between constructive criticism and bashing/attacking/being a hateful dick for the sake of being a hateful dick, which some people seem incapable of understanding, or unwilling to admit that such a difference exists.  unfortunately this topic and title are loaded and framed to encourage and promote denigrating the staff rather than be a place to discuss criticism so we can make improvements, and thus far its achieved its intended purpose and little else.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Why did I bother checking this again 

I?m sure, like you have zep, BP will come up with a well written creative attempt to demonstrate how he is the scapegoat for the great liberal conspiracy that is BL. 

And zep, don?t read to much into this, but your examples, or at least those I?m aware of or were involved in... you?re doing a wicked job misrepresenting them. Again, some actual evidence, like a quote or something, that would be a start. 

I?m sure ya?ll can find something totally bring it out of contex, which I?m equally sure more than one other member will be happy to put it back in context for you. 

I?m get both really curious and nauseaous thinking about what will come for me to read tomorrow here. Pls don?t disappoint. 

I?m looking forward to this issue with BP getting resolved one way or the other in the wake of this thread. 

How that happens is entirely up to you BP, but you wore my patience through sometime yesterday or the day before.


----------



## Blue_Phlame

tathra said:


> _constructive_ criticism is always welcome and even encouraged; if we're doing a poor job or people see areas where we could make improvements, such suggestions are always welcome.  there is, however, a huge difference between constructive criticism and bashing/attacking/being a hateful dick for the sake of being a hateful dick, which some people seem incapable of understanding, or unwilling to admit that such a difference exists.  unfortunately this topic and title are loaded and framed to encourage and promote denigrating the staff rather than be a place to discuss criticism so we can make improvements, and thus far its achieved its intended purpose and little else.



^ I can appreciate responses like this, I agree with most of it except for the last part.


toothpastedog said:


> , but you worse my patient through sometime yesterday or the day before.


My mental health is more important than BL, I hope you understand. Give me some time to collect myself and prepare responses to everyone who commented on this thread.


----------



## JessFR

swilow said:


> If folks sincerely think staff are abusing "power, tell us where and we can try to improve. If we don't know or aren't told, how can we change? So far the accusations have been vague and broad, I think a certain specificity is the only thing that will enable us to explain and/or modify our conduct.
> 
> I'm gonna say that we aren't perfect but we are doing our best. There is always room for improvement though.
> 
> But the silence from B_P is telling. Its clear this is a chuck a bomb and run away thread.  For that reason, I'd be for killing this topic.



While I'm skeptical of this whole abuse of power claim.. I will say that if the BL higher up were abusing power.. You can't exactly express that problem openly. It's a catch 22,if the systems corrupt, you have to work against it surreptitiously, which can then be used as grounds publicly to suppress it. And if it's not corrupt, there's no reason to bring it up publicly. Either way, bringing it up publicly isn't usually helpful unless the people in power are divided and only some are corrupt.

Though personally this whole thread continues to make me thing this corruption shit is largely bs. If there really were such prolific abuse of power this thread should have been long disappeared. Corrupt power abusers hate people talking back to them.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Blue_Phlame said:


> ^ I can appreciate responses like this, I agree with most of it except for the last part.
> 
> My mental health is more important than BL, I hope you understand. Give me some time to collect myself and prepare responses to everyone who commented on this thread.



Well, I can honestly say Im looking forward to seeing what you post. Im sure youll get to it when you can.

That wasnt meant to be passive aggressive btw, it was just the kindest thing I could think of. 

Anyways, it is almost funny to me now. Im getting more of a feeling what you must have experienced in that thread I confronted you in. So yeah, regardless of what my reasons were, Im sorry for provoking you like that. I apologize, no conditions attached. 

I really was not considering how it would make you feel, I was just beyond my limit of frustration with the situation you have gotten into. But please man, come on with all this. I used to really respect you. I get the sense the feeling was fairly mutual. 

I really dont understand why you are getting so invested in proving your point with this, but it is also almost funny how I can have no problem maintaining professionalism IRL, but I can lose it so easily on here. 

Makes me wonder what you are like IRL, if you are not also different from the impression I have gotten recently online.


----------



## tathra

JessFR said:


> I will say that if the BL higher up were abusing power.. You can't exactly express that problem openly. It's a catch 22,if the systems corrupt, you have to work against it surreptitiously, which can then be used as grounds publicly to suppress it.



well, you _can_ express it openly, but you'd get smacked the fuck down whenever the corrupt one caught wind of it.  speaking out would really only be "dangerous" for staff, because if there really was something like that going on, staff members with integrity would suddenly find themselves removed, at a minimum.  nothing like that has happened to BP for speaking out though, so unless there's some giant conspiracy going on behind the scenes that everybody else is in on and nobody else has even the slightest shred of integrity or moral fortitude to allow them to speak up against this alleged corruption and despotism, then there's not really a legitimate issue here.


----------



## Droppersneck

Tathra you are easily the only one of your kind, and I mean that in a complimentary way. Thanks for always taking the high route and trying to mediate things and get to what’s right/just. 



Blue_Phlame said:


> This discussion needed to happen, I'll respond to everyone's comments soon enough.



Bp take your time, you always have great well thought out responses and that takes time. Hope everything is well otherwise


----------



## 6am-64-14m

New here.
Just thinking that there is an option to close a thread just because the mod is sure _their_ answer is _the_ answer and there is to be no  further perspectives is quite annoying and closed-minded: Regardless of how many drugs and therapy one has endured. Times, stressors and environments change moment-to-moment. Wont name or link to threads but even with experience without an open-mind there can be some brain-rotting megalomania going on.
Ban me if you must... just does seem that one or two apples are tainting very healthy service.


----------



## Captain.Heroin

We used to issue a lot more infractions back then than we do now.  There's a certain historical perspective about this that I thought someone with a 2005 join date might understand...


----------



## Jabberwocky

PtahTek said:


> New here.
> Just thinking that there is an option to close a thread just because the mod is sure _their_ answer is _the_ answer and there is to be no  further perspectives is quite annoying and closed-minded: Regardless of how many drugs and therapy one has endured. Times, stressors and environments change moment-to-moment. Wont name or link to threads but even with experience without an open-mind there can be some brain-rotting megalomania going on.
> Ban me if you must... just does seem that one or two apples are tainting very healthy service.



What? I have literally no idea what you just were trying to explain? 

And no lol that is part of the ridiculous thing about the serious accusation in this thread: you are not going to get banned for expressing your opinion (just as long as that opinion does not boil down to hate speah or trying to sell or buy drugs).


----------



## alasdairm

PtahTek said:


> New here.
> Just thinking that there is an option to close a thread just because the mod is sure _their_ answer is _the_ answer and there is to be no  further perspectives is quite annoying and closed-minded...


and yet the thread remains open and people are freely criticizing staff.

does not compute?

alasdair


----------



## Captain.Heroin

zephyr said:


> Ok. You censored a meme that you took personally and refused to apologise despite objections .
> 
> Considering the post does not break guidelines and was actually ironically on point, you both just proved you abused your powers doing so and also acted like a total ass about it.
> 
> 
> Also after being privy to the email exchange between staff and liquid method you also screwed up there big time.  You really did.
> 
> 
> You lie about having ip matches for alts.  You ban on suspicion only which is crap and never admit you are wrong.
> 
> 
> Also bls blatant lack of handling anything to do with the lounge.  Nice one guys.  Real great.  Thanks for that.
> 
> Basically you guys mess up, dont listen to each other, dont have any open discussions with members without either manufacturing a banal response in staff, lose your shit and close it down or are in any way truthful anymore.  Its too frustrating even bothering to talk to you, no wonder people who have been happily blrs for years crack the shits and dont care about you at all anymore.
> 
> Easier to talk behind our back innit?  What are you- thirteen?
> 
> 
> What beepers issue is,  Im pretty sure he would have tried discussing this in staff so its telling he brought this up here.
> 
> Just cut the crap and stop pretending its all good and well back there and get your shit together bl . Jeez .



Lots of judgment from someone who cannot take any.  

I hope you are doing well


----------



## swilow

zephyr said:


> Ok. You censored a meme that you took personally and refused to apologise despite objections .
> 
> Considering the post does not break guidelines and was actually ironically on point, you both just proved you abused your powers doing so and also acted like a total ass about it.
> 
> 
> Also after being privy to the email exchange between staff and liquid method you also screwed up there big time.  You really did.
> 
> 
> You lie about having ip matches for alts.  You ban on suspicion only which is crap and never admit you are wrong.
> 
> 
> Also bls blatant lack of handling anything to do with the lounge.  Nice one guys.  Real great.  Thanks for that.
> 
> Basically you guys mess up, dont listen to each other, dont have any open discussions with members without either manufacturing a banal response in staff, lose your shit and close it down or are in any way truthful anymore.  Its too frustrating even bothering to talk to you, no wonder people who have been happily blrs for years crack the shits and dont care about you at all anymore.
> 
> Easier to talk behind our back innit?  What are you- thirteen?
> 
> 
> What beepers issue is,  Im pretty sure he would have tried discussing this in staff so its telling he brought this up here.
> 
> Just cut the crap and stop pretending its all good and well back there and get your shit together bl . Jeez .



Ok, we went through all that months back. It's not really relevant here.  

Anyway, what are YOU doing to help again?


----------



## JessFR

Why can't we all just get along! 

This is why we can't have nice things.


----------



## swilow

In general, we do get along.  It is a vocal minority pointing out how shit everything is.


----------



## tathra

PtahTek said:


> Just thinking that there is an option to close a thread just because the mod is sure _their_ answer is _the_ answer and there is to be no  further perspectives is quite annoying and closed-minded: Regardless of how many drugs and therapy one has endured..



i'm guessing that you had a thread that you made closed, and you dont understand why?  there's a lot of reasons why a thread might get closed.  yes, a moderator deciding that they're right and no further discussion should happen after they give their opinion is a possibility, but its not something thats going to be common.  there arent really any forums here that are run by a single moderator, rather we work in teams; if a mod is acting unilaterally and his fellow forum mods disagree, you can bet that they're discussing it behind the scenes until they come to some kind of agreement or understanding (or the issue gets elevated to the senior mods, or even administration; although sometimes all of the forum's mods agree that that specific user should be treated unfairly, in which case that user should elevate the issue to the senior mods).

not understanding why a thread was closed doesnt make it an abuse of authority though.  if you feel that there is something unfair going on, or mods are making decisions based on bias and personal grudges rather than trying to be objective and bias-free, first pm the mod in question to inquire, and if you're unsatisfied with the response you can pm the one of the senior mods overseeing that forum (listing of which senior mods cover which forums), and if you're unhappy with _that_ you should report the initial post of the thread or the specific post in question so the whole staff can have a look.  and if you're still unhappy with _that_ answer, then its probably the case that the problem isnt with the staff or their decisions.


----------



## Scrofula

Where am I supposed to even post in this ghost town of bots going around in circles?  Where am I to defend my alleged demodship, incurred through a totally legitimate use of the non-alt Forum Moderator, a position I wielded, and an account I was granted permission to use by senior mod CFC, in the Staff Tips Thread in TPH?  I broke no rules and have stuff to say if anyone was ever around to hear it.  I actually don't give a shit, but I feel like the con-man/woman who took my Dad's money for drug prohibition wants me to say something, and you'd think a site for and by drug-users would have something to say about my situation.  It's the only thing bringing in traffic, after all.


----------



## JessFR

I'm really confused now.


----------



## alasdairm

Scrofula said:


> Where am I to defend my alleged demodship...


it's not alleged. you were stepped down.



Scrofula said:


> ...incurred through a totally legitimate use of the non-alt Forum Moderator, a position I wielded, and an account I was granted permission to use by senior mod CFC, in the Staff Tips Thread in TPH?


totally legitimate? no. if you'd like me to clarify, please pm me.

alasdair


----------



## mal3volent

JessFR said:


> I'm really confused now.



Don't worry about it. This whole thread is bullshit made under false pretense. OP dropped a bomb and went AWOL. Thankfully it was a dud .


----------



## PriestTheyCalledHim

Scrofula said:


> Where am I supposed to even post in this ghost town of bots going around in circles?  Where am I to defend my alleged demodship, incurred through a totally legitimate use of the non-alt Forum Moderator, a position I wielded, and an account I was granted permission to use by senior mod CFC, in the Staff Tips Thread in TPH?  I broke no rules and have stuff to say if anyone was ever around to hear it.  I actually don't give a shit, but I feel like the con-man/woman who took my Dad's money for drug prohibition wants me to say something, and you'd think a site for and by drug-users would have something to say about my situation.  It's the only thing bringing in traffic, after all.



I am not surprised that this happened to you.  Anyway, I gave staff multiple warnings and alerts about how you are a troll, and I'm fine with being bluelight crew since I used to moderate multiple forums here and stepped down since I no longer use drugs at all since as an addict friend (who as fucked up as it sounds was the one who introduced me to using drugs as a teenager when he was an adult who was a lot older than me), once said to me that I would just outgrow using them and I guess that's what happened? I also am focusing on helping relatives.



Blue_Phlame said:


> This is an open letter to all readers of Bluelight - lurkers, new-members, regulars, staff and everyone else who reads these forums.
> 
> There is an inadequate level of checks-and-balances on Bluelight that regulate the actions of some staff members. Does anyone else think that occurrences of unfair decisions made at the expense of members who do not share the same ideological perspective have become increasingly more commonplace?  The board's general disposition has shifted heavily to one side, and as a consequence, started ostracizing members who do not share the same ideals.
> 
> Its clear to me that this forum no longer holds values that encourage impartial and non-partisan perspectives in its staff.



I agree with this in some ways, but bluelight as a whole needs work done and to change back to how it was when we first joined and it was more about helping people who use or are addicted to drugs, than politics and people getting mad just because someone posts something they do not agree with or like politically, socially, etc.  False cries that things posted are racist, hate speech, fascist, etc. just make people less hesitant to post and voice their own opinions, and you have people who do not agree politically who start to hold grudges against each other or get petty over silly stuff.

I have read racist posts here on blueight but they were not in the current events/politics forum but were in other forums and it was all quickly dealt with.

Of course the post below mine is a perfect example of someone crying wolf about racism/racist posts here on bluelight.  I can understand why actual racists posts were removed and I would remove them when I read trolls posting them in the sex and relationships forum.



			
				mal3volent said:
			
		

> Who would hold a grudge against us for not allowing racist material, besides racists? Who would feel even slightly hesitant to voice their opinions due to the removal of racist material, other than racists?



I also remember when everyone including staff/moderators would joke around.  I was not one much for the lounge but people took things less seriously then or so it seems.

Yes bluelight focuses on harm reduction, but even that can always be improved.  I remember reading posts that advocate doing things that are generally not safe like do it yourself alcohol withdrawal/detox from home, or taking benzos with opiates, etc.


----------



## mal3volent

^ It's all quickly dealt with. 

Who would hold a grudge against us for not allowing racist material, besides racists? Who would feel even slightly hesitant to voice their opinions due to the removal of racist material, other than racists?

If you want BL to be more about drugs and HR, you should be pretty satisfied with how these recent events have been handled. The spirit of harm reduction was in the forefront of our minds and was mentioned several times in our discussions. You realize there are all kinds of drug users, new to BL, who would find the stuff we removed personally offensive. They might not know who are trolls and who aren't...might get the wrong idea about BL altogether.


----------



## zephyr

I am looking forward to beepers responses to this thread.


Also,  there was a tine where staff WERE the biggest trolls of them all,  actually fun and were more than capable of keeping blrs in the palm of their hands.  Warnings were rare, bans even less so.


----------



## mal3volent

zephyr said:


> I am looking forward to beepers responses to this thread.



I think we all are. Should be some real gems after all this time.


----------



## zephyr

^ Beepers has been around a long time and has been a voice of reason at times of great change-  as it turns out were just a bunch of shrill voices pissing in the wind.  


Some of those are still on staff and have become senior staff,  which was deserved of a raised eyebrow considering the damage that was done by all that.  Not that it matters right?


Most staff are pretty cool but yep- some def are not there on staff for the right reasons.   Its just common knowledge theres always a few bad apples on staff just like there are untouchable continual trolls as plebes.  Who they are though is a personal opinion .


It would be better to have a limited tenure of staff so no one person starts to feel entitled.  If you think youre far better than anyone else, step down and you will see you arent.     

Whatever makes ppl feel important though right?


----------



## mal3volent

I wouldn't know, I am not one who has ever felt that important in any aspect of my life. Least of all my internet life.

I continue to be puzzled by all this ambiguity though. Why don't people just say whatever it is they're trying to say. That's the whole point of having a thread here, right b_p? Let the comman man stand toe to toe with the powers that be? 

So nows the time....speak up and let your voice be heard. Call out by name your abusers and those who have kept you in chains. Figuratively speaking, of course.


----------



## zephyr

Scrof



Xxxxxxx




Wow.


----------



## tathra

mal3volent said:


> I continue to be puzzled by all this ambiguity though. Why don't people just say whatever it is they're trying to say. That's the whole point of having a thread here, right b_p? Let the comman man stand toe to toe with the powers that be?
> 
> So nows the time....speak up and let your voice be heard. Call out by name your abusers and those who have kept you in chains. Figuratively speaking, of course.



seriously.  i keep seeing a whole bunch of general allegations of misconduct but no evidence to support those allegations.  its easy to make shit up and make accusations, anyone can do that, but so far i havent seen anything to support any of those claims except for more unsupported accusations.


----------



## zephyr

Just open up the reported posts and bipolar threads where you clearly make completely unbiased decisions.  Lets see these supposed checks and balances.  

Go on.  No one would have a problem with that would they?


----------



## mal3volent

zephyr said:


> Just open up the reported posts and bipolar threads where you clearly make completely unbiased decisions.  Lets see these supposed checks and balances.
> 
> Go on.  No one would have a problem with that would they?



oh know, you got us. Hope you aren't stealing b_p's thunder. 

Those threads are private for the sake of whoever they happen to be about. Not because anyone is trying to conceal anything. 

Again, why are you so pissed? Be specific.


----------



## 6am-64-14m

tathra said:


> i'm guessing that you had a thread that you made closed, and you dont understand why?


Understand that I am not bashing mods, please. Great site and very knowledgeable peeps.
I _did_ have a closed thread and do understand why. Not but hurt in the least... answers abound and insight is a bitch.
Others closed that I do not understand. As alluded to: Time, characters, pastimes, usage, ideas, chemicals and curiosities morph. 
It is the mentality "I say this and that is sufficient - closed" (even when there is citations to provide contrary evidence) that is small-minded and dangerous, IMO. 

Strife will abound in _any_ group of individuals... specially a community of junkies and veterans (those that go through it and make it out for another battle). Of course I include myself in this last crowd... Ptah Pawn
Unless I get banned (or other mishap) I plan on being here for quite some time. 
Hope ya'll will have me and know I will not always coddle and comfort.
Love always,
Me

Edit:
Thank you for taking the time to explain this in detail. Most is common sense but good reading and spelling, punctuation and structure are spot-on. Great job.


----------



## zephyr

mal3volent said:


> oh know, you got us. Hope you aren't stealing b_p's thunder.
> 
> Those threads are private for the sake of whoever they happen to be about. Not because anyone is trying to conceal anything.
> 
> Again, why are you so pissed? Be specific.



Im not pissed.  I was a mod you know.  I am well aware of those threads and theyre no secret.  Never have been.   TLB made note in public that there would be records kept like this,   and I gotta say that theres no unseeing this.



It makes sense to me what beeps alludes to,  I disagree theres any link to political leanings though.


Basically theres a massive drop in traffic.  An increase in mods and senior staff.  Mods can be ban hammer  heavy,  dont have any sense of value for the community having already destroyed it and nothings going to get better .  

Staff just have their own little world so list nothing screwing up the community for everyone else.

I know you mods wouldnt dare show us what you say and you couldnt.    That would take some honesty and if you had some common decency there wouldnt be a problem right?

All I see is a huge crack in the iron curtin and nothing but denial that anyone from staff have done wrong.  Its the same fake front thats carried on from disaster to disaster.  It does not fly anymore.  Luckily for you though,  you have managed to ostracize the population so no one cares!


Im just here for the sparkling repartee.


----------



## tathra

zephyr said:


> Mods ... dont have any srnse of value for the community gaving already destroyed it and nothings going to get better



that's the users you're thinking of, particularly a small group of them that have made it their personal missions to destroy people's reputations and relationships, aka the community, and have been at it for years.


----------



## JessFR

I can't help feel like this thread is what it would look like if someone fucked up and accidentally moved a private thread from the super secret mod only subforum into CE&P.

Really confusing cause of piles of missing context while also standing as a mockery of any pretense of a united leadership.

The other thing I can't help but feel related to this thread is what I imagine it's like being the kid when your parents are fighting. "mom.. dad... Please stop fighting! You love each other!" .


----------



## alasdairm

^ bluelight staff are frequently accused of mindlessly sticking up for each other and 'toeing the line' (or such). staff are free to express their opinions in here which is now characterized as 'a mockery of any pretense of a united leadership'. damned if we do...



PtahTek said:


> Others closed that I do not understand.


there's nothing stopping anybody from pm'ing the forum staff and asking why a thread was closed and, if they feel strongly, requesting the thread be reopened.

did you contact the forum staff? what did they say?

alasdair


----------



## JessFR

Dude it wasn't a judgement. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's good that you guys argue and debate. I was just remarking that the situation here is a bit unusual and surprising. I wasn't saying that's bad.

I mean I'd always assumed that the bluelight mods try to appear united when in reality they argue with each other.. Cause that tends to always be how it is wherever you go. But not being a mod myself, I'm surprised to actually see it, that's all. It was a comment, not a criticism.


----------



## tathra

"praise in public, criticise in private" is pretty basic professionalism.


----------



## alasdairm

^ indeed.



JessFR said:


> Dude it wasn't a judgement. I'm not saying it's a bad thing.


it's hard for me to see how "_a mockery of any pretense of a united leadership_" is anything other than a negative judgement.

alasdair


----------



## zephyr

swilow said:


> If folks sincerely think staff are abusing "power, tell us where and we can try to improve. If we don't know or aren't told, how can we change? So far the accusations have been vague and broad, I think a certain specificity is the only thing that will enable us to explain and/or modify our conduct.
> 
> I'm gonna say that we aren't perfect but we are doing our best. There is always room for improvement though.
> 
> But the silence from B_P is telling. Its clear this is a chuck a bomb and run away thread.  For that reason, I'd be for killing this topic.



 This post seems to imply there has been no attempt to try to communicate with mods regarding areas of concern.  I must be mistaken but there have been attempts to do so, albeit from people that are clearly just ignored,disregarded or seen to be of no worth at all.  In fact it was toothpaste dog who mentioned the newly smodded staff were aware of concerns of there being bans etc allegedly due to being right wing.

Unfortunately it seems this was oertaining to bans for trolling by someone that is a well known troll that just happens to be right wing.  Havent seen much activity from td since then so all must be hunky dory. 





I dont think that anyone has been cast out because they have a different viewpoint to the seemingly vocal left wing orientated staff, who tend to look like they overwhelm anyone else and some posts do border on abusive.  

It doesnt bother me personally as all except for one thing.  Anyone who speaks their mind on a subject just gets hounded by the same group over and over yet the same group denies bullying.  That kind of behaviour is what was going on in tl so  bl closed it-
 except the roles are reversed.


People like jah were caught up in that and I cant blame him for being angry.  The guy is a good guy,  a troll he is not and yes theres definitely a grudge  on both sides.  He has been infracted for some questionable things, just imagine if you guys were wrong?  I doubt he was an alt  parodying someone else and doubt you could prove me wrong.

The slr ban, really?  How many of mine in that thread referenced people like you?  


I guess you can call him racist or whatever for using the n and f words.  

He isnt, just pissed that once again there were inactive mods.  Others have posted f word and was let go by mods who posted directly beneath.  

Its not like asking a direct question gets a response either !

He would have been a good mod as he would have put tl first  or at least shown up.   It wasnt his fault tl closed and he got confused about it.  It wsnt hus fault he thought you closed it Ali as you are the one who put up the announcement.  Is it any wonder you were blamed solely?  


Its pretty clear there is no place on bl for the remnant ex loungers.  Some of them are just going to plague you from their shit hole and keep stirring shit and maybe you deserve it .


Beepers did try to work with you lot during that time.   It would be nice if you would do the same back,  how much of his  and other peoples time would have been wasted by now keeping the light on for a forum you clearly have no interest in?

Sucks to be beeps right now,  look how far loyalty got him 


*shrug*


----------



## swilow

JessFR said:


> I can't help feel like this thread is what it would look like if someone fucked up and accidentally moved a private thread from the super secret mod only subforum into CE&P.



Mod threads are (unsurprisingly) a lot of "shit I'm high" for a large part. 

It does put to rest the idea we are some goose stepping robots though.  Quite the opposite point to what the op is likely to have intended.


----------



## tathra

zephyr said:


> [Jah] would have been a good mod as he would have put tl first  or at least shown up.



picking fights with management and generally being hostile towards them, as well as continued flagrant demonstrations that one is unwilling to adhere to the community's rules and guidelines are very poor ways to demonstrate one's ability and compatibility to be part of said management team.  you dont have to like or get along with everybody on the management team to be a good fit as a mod, but you _do_ have to demonstrate that you can be professional when it comes to the work no matter what your personal feelings or grudges, as well as demonstrate willingness to actually do the job.  i keep trying to explain this to him because i also think he could potentially be a good mod, but since he wont listen to advice, make changes, or take responsibility there's little that anyone else can do; its all on him and what he wants, and his actions make his priorities and goals clear enough.



zephyr said:


> Anyone who speaks their mind on a subject just gets hounded by the same group over and over yet the same group denies bullying.



not sure what you're talking about here. there's only one group of bullies that i know of, the same ones that have been targeting you along with a lot of others for years, and they're not part o  the staff as you well know.


----------



## -Guido-

I really don't see an abuse of power persay. Personal bias and lack of sight for gray areas? Absolutely but it's limited.

Honestly the changes occurring over the years IMO  are do in part to Blue light becoming a partner with MAPS. In a sense a more socially acceptable mantra of behaviour and posting was necessary.


----------



## alasdairm

^ indeed. there was nothing arbitrary about it.

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

Wow there is some mud slinging here, where none needs to be imo. OP is mad bc the site ran off his tribe of shit posters with an arbitrily over bearing set of guidelines(when considering the lounge of the old) It happened by design bc understandably leadership thought a 4chan esk forum full of trolls defeated the purpose of HR, others felt more HR happened bc of the tight knit community. I?m here to tell you BP that social justice folks are ruining forums all across the internet, this isn?t unique to here. And maybe the BLUA elites are right in the lounge being a bad look for bl, and maybe you are right in a having a tight knit community helping with HR. Life is about comprimise, but sometimes folks either don?t want to or see things a different way.
Jess this is all about the lounge, and BP is the final hold out from moving on.

<edited> I agree with guido. MAPS required the site to be more mainstream


----------



## alasdairm

^ that comment is based on complete ignorance of the facts. maps didn't _require_ anything of us when we agreed to host their forums.



Droppersneck said:


> ...with an *arbitrily* over bearing set of guidelines(when considering the lounge of the old) It happened *by design*...



i do not think that word means what you think it means...

alasdair


----------



## mal3volent

Bluelight mods, smods, admins, etc are not a monolith. We are different people with different personalities, different backgrounds, and different political opinions. Some have been staff for years and years...others, like me, not very long. Some have very successful and fulfilling lives. Some struggle to make it through the day. We weren't shipped in from the mod factory, we are just Bluelighters who agreed to take on more responsibility because we love the site and want to see it do well. 

I'm just a s&g mod, so there's hardly anything required of me, and thats probably a good thing because my life is somewhat of a wreck. But there are those who take on MUCH more than I do and they do it on top of full time jobs and families and relationships and drama and addictions and everything else every other Bluelighter is dealing with. It doesn't come with a check or notoriety. And the more you have to do, the more likely you are to be hated and disrespected on a daily basis for one reason or another.

It's actually pretty funny that the mod section of the forums has this mysterious reputation where we meet in secret and diabolically plan what we should do next to hurt the site...the site we volunteered to help maintain. We haphazardly make decisions...infract people for no reason...don't give a fuck about anything because we are mods. Mods drunk on the power we wield over you worthless SOBs.  

In reality, there is literally no action of any consequence...made by any of us...that is not either openly debated/discussed or at the very least recorded and documented. The vast majority of this is boring, routine, and not controversial in the least. Anything that is controversial is discussed _at length_ and there is an incredible amount of caution taken to make sure we are keeping each other in check and not overreacting or under reacting to any given situation.

The more light hearted part of the forums is exactly the same as the community type threads everywhere else. It's us talking about mundane shit. Talking about being high or not being high. About some kind of shit going on in our lives. I talked to CH earlier about housebreaking pets and those huge collars they have to wear after they get spayed so they don't lick their stitches. There's a lot of talk about pets. There's a music thread that I've not even gotten around to posting in. Just really normal shit like that.

Seriously, just think about how ridiculous it is to accuse us of being secretive and not caring what everyone thinks. If that were true, someone could have just made this thread disappear. Obliterated with no evidence of it ever existing. But then again, why would we _care_ if you knew we deleted it if we didn't _care_ what you think? Why have so many mods responded to this thread? Why do we feel the need to make you understand if we don't give a shit about you? Why did I just type like ten pages of shit most of you have already stopped reading? 

Is it too much to ask of anyone to _pretty please_ do not post racist, sexist, or homophobic shit? It's just not a very nice thing to do. It is inconsiderate and disruptive. Bluelight is for ALL types of people. People come here lots of times in distress, depressed, irrational, feeling hurt. We do not want them to come here and see some kind of vile or hateful shit and think they are not welcome. I swear, that is my _primary_ concern. And I think most of us feel that way. It has little or nothing to do with personally disagreeing with it politically, or being liberal, or anything like that.


----------



## Jabberwocky

zephyr said:


> This post seems to imply there has been no attempt to try to communicate with mods regarding areas of concern.  I must be mistaken but there have been attempts to do so, albeit from people that are clearly just ignored,disregarded or seen to be of no worth at all.  In fact it was toothpaste dog who mentioned the newly smodded staff were aware of concerns of there being bans etc allegedly due to being right wing.
> 
> Unfortunately it seems this was oertaining to bans for trolling by someone that is a well known troll that just happens to be right wing.  Havent seen much activity from td since then so all must be hunky dory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont think that anyone has been cast out because they have a different viewpoint to the seemingly vocal left wing orientated staff, who tend to look like they overwhelm anyone else and some posts do border on abusive.
> 
> It doesnt bother me personally as all except for one thing.  Anyone who speaks their mind on a subject just gets hounded by the same group over and over yet the same group denies bullying.  That kind of behaviour is what was going on in tl so  bl closed it-
> except the roles are reversed.
> 
> 
> People like jah were caught up in that and I cant blame him for being angry.  The guy is a good guy,  a troll he is not and yes theres definitely a grudge  on both sides.  He has been infracted for some questionable things, just imagine if you guys were wrong?  I doubt he was an alt  parodying someone else and doubt you could prove me wrong.
> 
> The slr ban, really?  How many of mine in that thread referenced people like you?
> 
> 
> I guess you can call him racist or whatever for using the n and f words.
> 
> He isnt, just pissed that once again there were inactive mods.  Others have posted f word and was let go by mods who posted directly beneath.
> 
> Its not like asking a direct question gets a response either !
> 
> He would have been a good mod as he would have put tl first  or at least shown up.   It wasnt his fault tl closed and he got confused about it.  It wsnt hus fault he thought you closed it Ali as you are the one who put up the announcement.  Is it any wonder you were blamed solely?
> 
> 
> Its pretty clear there is no place on bl for the remnant ex loungers.  Some of them are just going to plague you from their shit hole and keep stirring shit and maybe you deserve it .
> 
> 
> Beepers did try to work with you lot during that time.   It would be nice if you would do the same back,  how much of his  and other peoples time would have been wasted by now keeping the light on for a forum you clearly have no interest in?
> 
> Sucks to be beeps right now,  look how far loyalty got him
> 
> 
> *shrug*



I said what? Because I truly have no idea what you’re referring to. If you’re gonna attribute something to me please explain.

My lack of activity on the public forums has a lot to do with one thing and one thing only: graduate school. I’ve only had enough time to deal with administrative stuff this semester, and even then... 

I am looking forward to this summer and being able to devote myself more to SL again. I’ve been looking forward to working more with our new staff there. 

But I digress... what was it you are saying I was saying?


----------



## JessFR

alasdairm said:


> ^ indeed.
> 
> it's hard for me to see how "_a mockery of any pretense of a united leadership_" is anything other than a negative judgement.
> 
> alasdair



This strikes me as that kind of situation where someone makes a joke about the president bring assassinated, then some federal agents show up and ask "so you think the president being assassinated is funny do you...?" "explain to me what's funny about you talking about the president being assassinated".

It's ironic, I had no negative judgement at the time, but rest assured you've corrected that.


----------



## zephyr

tathra said:


> picking fights with management and generally being hostile towards them, as well as continued flagrant demonstrations that one is unwilling to adhere to the community's rules and guidelines are very poor ways to demonstrate one's ability and compatibility to be part of said management team.  you dont have to like or get along with everybody on the management team to be a good fit as a mod, but you _do_ have to demonstrate that you can be professional when it comes to the work no matter what your personal feelings or grudges, as well as demonstrate willingness to actually do the job.  i keep trying to explain this to him because i also think he could potentially be a good mod, but since he wont listen to advice, make changes, or take responsibility there's little that anyone else can do; its all on him and what he wants, and his actions make his priorities and goals clear enough.
> 
> 
> 
> not sure what you're talking about here. there's only one group of bullies that i know of, the same ones that have been targeting you along with a lot of others for years, and they're not part o  the staff as you well know.
> 
> 
> 
> not the whole site, just one single forum, because things had been so bad for so long (several years) with absolutely no signs of it doing anything except _getting worse_ that the owners were finally forced to step in.  and even then, all that was done was bringing it under the same rules as the whole rest of the board had always followed (the bluelight user agreement) instead of continuing to let everyone get carte blanche to violate the rules and guidelines, as had been the case for years.



You can utfse as well as I can bro.   Im not particularly interested in how you spend your time though.


----------



## tathra

so the reason none of these claims are being backed up is because they cant be.  got it.


----------



## zephyr

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/829860-ANTIFA-attacks-peaceful-right-wing-protestors-in-Berkeley-CA?p=14184885&viewfull=1#post14184885


Wow lol td you really havent been around much in cep have you?  Omg lol.


Anyhoo, I digress.  This is where you seemed to indicate there was some slight concern over bias in cep.


I reiterate,  I really dont care-  you clearly are on top of things and totally interested in the well being and growth if the community.  






Lmfao.



			
				tooth said:
			
		

> Would you please just report posts you feel like have victimized you? If you feel like anyone's actions have left you discriminated against who is on staff, please send either CFC or myself a pm to let us know so we can deal with it.
> 
> Either of those options would be way better than just complain about it here. I'll make a sticky to let you know of some new policies we may be rolling out in CE&P in terms of dealing with actual discrimination so many of our forum's membership have been complaining about. Time to take the bulls by the horns, so to speak (the bulls being discrimination, both actual and perceived - to tame one form seriously we have to take both as such).
> 
> Anyways, our CE&P moderators do a hell of a job working to keep this forum running as smoothly as possible, and it's one of the hardest BL forums to moderator for sure. Anything you can do to help them make this forum a better place, the better. Any help you can give CE&P staff, it is very much appreciated in any case.


----------



## zephyr

tathy said:
			
		

> #253
> tathra  tathra is offline
> Moderator
> Current Events and Politics
> Homeless & Anonymous
> Sober Living
> North & South America Drug Discussion
> tathra's Avatar Join Date
> Jan 2001
> Location
> The Abyss
> Posts
> 21,128
> 16-01-2018 08:12 Report Post
> Quote Originally Posted by JahSEEuS  View Post
> That's great. Keep it with SMods and Admins -- you know, the ones that don't issue infractions unless it is completely necessary.
> I agree with this. If something is serious enough to require a permanent black mark on the account it should require hire than a mere moderator to issue it.
> 
> Perhaps the system could be changed to something like "if the user can go 2 years without an infraction then infractions over 2 years old change to expiring", then they're permanent if the user cant reform but otherwise have a 3 year lifespan, something like that.
> 
> One of the problems with using only expiring infractions was there were quite a few that would rack



Related reading.


----------



## Droppersneck

alasdairm said:


> ^ that comment is based on complete ignorance of the facts. maps didn't _require_ anything of us when we agreed to host their forums.
> 
> 
> 
> i do not think that word means what you think it means...
> 
> alasdair



I could use an arbitrary methodology to achieve a goal, especially when acting arbitrarily helps achieve said goal. Look Alasdair beleive it or not I really like you and value you as a person, but sometimes two parties can both be a little wrong. It happens, and acting 100% pragmatic and sanctimonious is why we are here(not you personally but the admin as a whole) I mean zero disrespect and you have shown that you value an open forum with regard to this topic. Just tell BP things aren’t going to change and encourage the thing we discussed. I could just turn and run away, but decided to contribute to this forum and follow the rules. BP just needs to realize that things change and it’s adapt or get out the way.


----------



## Jabberwocky

zephyr said:


> http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/829860-ANTIFA-attacks-peaceful-right-wing-protestors-in-Berkeley-CA?p=14184885&viewfull=1#post14184885
> 
> 
> Wow lol td you really havent been around much in cep have you?  Omg lol.
> 
> 
> Anyhoo, I digress.  This is where you *seemed* to indicate there was some *slight* concern over bias in cep.
> 
> 
> I reiterate,  I really dont care-  you clearly are on top of things and totally interested in the well being and growth if the community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lmfao.



You really are trying too hard zep. 

Where is it that I indicate we are concerned about arbitrary bias among staff? Seems like I did exactly what I’d do when a user expresses their feelings of victimization - instead of complaining do something about it by letting us know!

Me telling a user to get in touch with smods if they are unhappy with rules getting enforced is quite a bit different than seeming to indicate a slight bias among staff. It actually just informing someone how to make a complaint if they feel mistreated by mods, standard protocol outlines in guidelines here. 

That’s what you read into it, not what I wrote. Kinda reminds me of what is the problem with complaints I’ve seen so far here. They’re divorced from reality, at best taken out of context. 

I don’t read the quote you have there as indicating concern over staff bias whatsoever - which has nothing to do with my actual feelings about that, I’m just pointing out what you are saying I said has nothing to do with what I actually said!

Again, a big part of the issue as it’s unfolded, people misrepresenting things that have happened to suit their own selfish purposes. I make mistakes, I accept them, try to learn and move on. It isn’t actually that hard to do - moving on doesn’t even require acceptance. 

So far the only people who are seriously accusing people (and no zep, I’m sorry I have a hard time taking your feedback in this thread seriously after the rather difficult way you decided to leave staff) of bias are... people who are posting racist, sexist, xenophobia content in violation of forum policy and BLUA 

You are just encouraging them zep, but then again it doesn’t come as the biggest shock given what I’ve seen of your behavior since leaving staff...

Anyways, these folks get an infraction for breaking the rules, so they scream wolf. They complain of bias and mistreatment. Did they forget we have a user agreement? Are they so spoiled IRL that they do not believe they can be held accountable by that user agreement. 

Do you realize how far these users go to try and skirt the rules about racism, for instance? They know how our system works and do whatever they can to get around it. Now that we’ve updated the rules to prevent this from happening, they have no recourse but to argue the rules are biased. You used to mod TL, so I’d think you were already aware of this dynamic.

*Please people. You join as website like this, activate your account, that means you agree with the user contract. If you don’t like it when that contract is enforced, a contract that they voluntarily agreed to, maybe they should find a community that doesn’t take bigotry as seriously as we do. *

I can think of one place where bigotry and defamation is accepted and encouraged. It isn’t BL...

Really folks, some of you are really grasping at straws with this, but I understand you don’t want to let it go. After all, it’s a public opportunity to expose BL for the liberal anti-straight privileged white, illegal immigrant loving conspiracy it really is 8)

If you don’t see that as ridiculous, you probably shouldn’t be using the site...

Still waiting for the smoking gun, or anything that substantiates any of the complaints so far levied. You certainly haven’t provided it zep. 

Then again, I’m not too concerned. I’m kinda have an idea where this is going, I’d just prefer it to get there sooner than later. .

Still really curious to see what BP’s follow up will be. I don’t have high expectations, but it would be nice if this we could get to the point with this.

All this is accomplishing as far as I can tell is further enraging passions (this is the issue BP has been involved with on staff recently) and giving some of our less stellar members a chance to vent whatever crap their heart desire. 

I look forward to summerizing this once it’s finally piddled out...


----------



## mal3volent

Where the hell is BP...lots of blanks being fired around here. We need the big dogs.


----------



## zephyr

^hopefully soending his time doing something worthwhile.





			
				ali said:
			
		

> 14-01-2018 07:37
> the lounge closure was a decision made unilaterally with pretty much no discussion at the admin or smod level. the admins at the time (of whom i was one) admitted immediately that it was a mistake and the changes were rolled back immediately (literally within a day). why do people keep pointing to that as if it was the situation for an extended period?
> 
> alasdair




For your ref toothpastedog, just in case you were still thinking the lounge closure was a "thing".

Oh it was.

:D






Its a pity jah all if a sudden started racking up permanent infractions just when his record cleared and was a favourite to be a mod.  Really kinda gave just cause to turn him down didn't it?


----------



## Captain.Heroin

JessFR said:


> I can't help feel like this thread is what it would look like if someone fucked up and accidentally moved a private thread from the super secret mod only subforum into CE&P.


This is actually totally different.



zephyr said:


> Its a pity



Nope.


----------



## tathra

the longer this thread goes on the more confused i am about what's going on.

still no evidence of anything has been provided, just more accusations and changes of topic that I can't tell what this is supposed to be about, except an excuse to hurl shit over perceived grievances with no factual basis provided to support them.


----------



## mal3volent

Captain.Heroin said:


> This is actually totally different.



They are the exact same...except one is private and the other is public. One was "moved by accident" and the other wasn't moved at all. It was made in public on purpose. Other than that, totally the same. Also the mod subforum is secret...only it's not because everyone knows it's there.


----------



## Jabberwocky

^lol that is funny. Some much needed levity.

Zep, I see you ignored what I shared about you saying what I was saying actually bore little resemblance to what I actually said... 

I’m making it uncessarily complicated to highlight the shooting from the hip, trying too hard, aspect of what I’m seeing as complaints so far in this thread...

Likewise, where did i pretend the way TL->Social->TL was done perfectly? 

IMHO, as someone who wasn’t heavily invest in the old TL, instead invested in BL as a whole (particular RS), I did look favorably on seeing BLUA finally enforced uniformly across the various forums. It’s unfortunate how it played out, especially how former TL members dealt with it by making YOUR life hell, but that’s kinda another topic we have already beat to death.


----------



## zephyr

Guess you guys will just have to wait for OP to respond.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Indeed. With rapt attention.


----------



## swilow

zephyr said:


> Guess you guys will just have to wait for OP to respond.



So in the meantime are you going to stop derailing it with your own issue that literally nobody but you even understands?


----------



## Captain.Heroin

toothpastedog said:


> Likewise, where did i pretend the way TL->Social->TL was done perfectly?



It was done very well.  

I won't have anyone dismissing our work in this.  Zephyr was a part of it, whether or not she remembers the transition period or not, she did help out and those were some good times.



zephyr said:


> Guess you guys will just have to wait for OP to respond.



If this was at all a serious issue for B_P, a series of responses would be posted by now.


----------



## swilow

In bp defence, this would be hard to respond to. He probably bit off more than he could chew.


----------



## Jabberwocky

True. What would he have expect to happen with his though? 

For whatever reason I’m still prettt confident he’ll share some of his deeper oncerns here. 

Hopefully sooner than later. He mentioned this weekend iirc, so I’m hoping to see it by Monday.

I can totally relate to biting off more than is chewable though. 

Also, I don’t think anyone expects BP to have this smoking gun evidence proving his accusations of abuse of power without any doubt whatsoever, at least no one who is intimate with the situation. Frankly I’m expecting something vaguely connected to his accusations. 

What I really want is to hear more about what his thoughts were creating this, what he hoped to accomplish through this, and especially where he is going with it.

If the intention wasn’t to cause division or enflame passions, what was it? Was it really genuinely to point out some major problem with how BL is run? It if so, where does he get his ideas about that?

I’m just really hoping he doesn’t feel the need to break the rules mods are required to follow. That would just create more problems for everyone (well, except droppers, that would benefit him and his clique).


----------



## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> I could use an arbitrary methodology to achieve a goal...


you could. but that's not what happened.



Droppersneck said:


> I could just turn and run away...


i've lost count of the number of times you've said you're done, you're leaving. you're moving on. and yet here you are. so it's hard to know what to believe.

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

alasdairm said:


> you could. but that's not what happened.
> 
> i've lost count of the number of times you've said you're done, you're leaving. you're moving on. and yet here you are. so it's hard to know what to believe.
> 
> alasdair



I have resolve and like to see things through. Would you at least admit my case for butting heads with admins and wanting to just leave is part of some what of a pattern? At what point does a person stop blaming others and look inward. I literally do this daily, if I think I’m in the wrong after I’ve thought about things for a bit, i usually try to fix things the best way I know how/ better myself. The lounge is never coming back, but at this moment you could choose to hold onto a friend by listening rather than digging your feet into the sand. I know my opinion isn’t valued, but I’m telling you here something your lackeys and yes men never would. And that’s with all due respect and love.


----------



## cduggles

This thread is an uncontrolled burn.                                         


A few sorta random things: 


Modding for BL (and CE&P) is a great deal of work. The "invisible" part is about as exciting as seeing behind a Western storefront. (It's possible there's a secret bash that I'm not being invited to...) 


The one great thing is that as a mod you get to work with and better understand members of the staff. 


We _definitely_ don't all agree with each other or have the same political views. 


I keep hearing about the humorless mods who "unallow" (UA) or infract for racist, homophobic, sexist or otherwise offensive posts. 


Guess what? It's unimportant what we find funny. (You'd be surprised. Really.) It's also unimportant if the poster is "just joking" 8) or has "Daddy issues" or is blacked out.  


It isn't a mod's job to look into the heart of a poster and determine if that BLer is a racist or just needs some attention. It is the job of a moderator to know the Bluelight User Agreement (BLUA)/forum rules and then do something if the content violates them. 


BL doesn't exist for its staff. It exists for all BLers and lurkers. We're aware. You should be as well. 


---------


Priest, it's wonderful that you are sober and helping others. Perhaps you should focus on the positive aspects of that instead of sharing a tired, sanctimonious attitude on a harm reduction site.


This site is for drug users, addicts, people helping loved ones with drug issues, and sundry others in the community of drug use.


However, BL is not a place for people to feel superior to others because they think they have beaten addiction. It's not a place to hound and kick someone at a vulnerable moment.  


Hopefully you can outgrow this habit as well? 


I've seen so many unhelpful posts from you in the drug forums, as well as some in CE&P, like that piece you plagiarized from an apartheid denial site.


Why are you here? 


This site isn't going back to 2005 or the hateful place where you seem to be stuck. It's a shame you seem to have lost compassion for what you used to be. No need to share. We are all struggling enough. 






Droppersneck said:


> I have *resolve* and like to see things through.


 
I don't think that word means what you think it does.


----------



## zephyr

2005 was pretty good actually.  

As for being a mod,  the only real hard bit is having to be able to justify your decisions and even if it means hey we just dont like you and dont want you around, its a lot simpler to just be honest for once and not bother wasting the time of others with useless reasons,  so bear that in mind .


----------



## zephyr

Captain.Heroin said:


> This is actually totally different.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.



Excellent contribution CH.


----------



## mal3volent

zephyr said:


> Excellent contribution CH.



It really is. He's saying something that is honest and to the point. Believe it or not, a lot of people respect that.



zephyr said:


> As for being a mod, the only real hard bit is having to be able to justify your decisions and even if it means hey we just dont like you and dont want you around, its a lot simpler to just be honest for once and not bother wasting the time of others with useless reasons, so bear that in mind .



Useless reasons...aka the Bluelight User Agreement... aka something users of Bluelight agree to upfront when they register. 

Sounds more useful than useless to me.

There are lots of sites that don't have the BLUA. Mostly all the ones not named Bluelight.


----------



## 6am-64-14m

It was years of lurking before I started contributing... alas, back to lurking.
Just shouting at dead ears, peeps.
Much love, respect and appreciation to all.
Peace


----------



## mal3volent

PtahTek said:


> It was years of lurking before I started contributing... alas, back to lurking.
> Just shouting at dead ears, peeps.
> Much love, respect and appreciation to all.
> Peace



Why?


----------



## tathra

zephyr said:


> As for being a mod,  the only real hard bit is having to be able to justify your decisions and even if it means hey we just dont like you and dont want you around, its a lot simpler to just be honest for once and not bother wasting the time of others with useless reasons,  so bear that in mind .



there's a lot of people that would be perma-banned if we simply banned people because we didnt like them and didnt want them around (like the ones that keep calling you by that hateful nickname they have for you, you know who i'm talking about).  that they are still here is a testament to the staff's objectivity and refusal to make decisions based on personal grudges and feelings rather than violations of the rules.


----------



## scubagirl200

mal3volent said:


> I wouldn't know, I am not one who has ever felt that important in any aspect of my life. Least of all my internet life.
> 
> I continue to be puzzled by all this ambiguity though. Why don't people just say whatever it is they're trying to say. That's the whole point of having a thread here, right b_p? Let the comman man stand toe to toe with the powers that be?
> 
> *So nows the time....speak up and let your voice be heard. Call out by name your abusers and those who have kept you in chains. Figuratively speaking, of course.*



I bet I know someone that has some things to be said.  But can't, y'know?

Their voice has been, _ehem_, silenced.


----------



## mal3volent

scubagirl200 said:


> I bet I know someone that has some things to be said.  But can't, y'know?
> 
> Their voice has been, _ehem_, silenced.



because "they" were posting racist bullshit over and over again. Everyone was rooting for "them" to get it together because "they" are a great BLer when they want to be.


----------



## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> I have resolve and like to see things through.


ah. ok. so the numerous times you've said you're done. you're leaving. moving on. those were just more lies? gotcha.



Droppersneck said:


> At what point does a person stop blaming others and look inward.


what point indeed? but people continue to blame the bl staff for everything and the lies and nasty vitriol continue. of course i understand that's not what you meant but the irony of this sentence is not lost on me.

alasdair


----------



## Droppersneck

It’s not like I post more than a few times a week. It used to be thousands iirc. Some great folks at this site, this is indeed the end. You can’t always be right, why are these same issues such a common thread? Examine the body of work, is everyone of them just making up lies to smear your impeccable reputation, or perhaps could there be blame distributed more evenly.. the latter is more than likely the truth. Just thinking out loud here, BP is beyond reproach here imho. His judgement should be valued and warnings heeded.


----------



## tathra

Droppersneck said:


> why are these same issues such a common thread?



the only "common thread" or "issues" is that its always the same small group of people posting objectionable content and then crying foul when the rules are enforced.

i feel bad for outing her, but JessFR is also a conservative, so if people are being banned for their views and not for breaking the rules then why isn't she getting banned too?


----------



## 6am-64-14m

*[video=photobucket;beatme_zpspnbbk23v.gif]http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i[/video]*



mal3volent said:


> Why?


Maybe because I am not a sports fan...?
JK.
I can stop trying to help no more than holding my breath forever.
Maybe I need more recreational options and just chill. 
Can't we all just get along?
Prolly get flamed for this last bit... lol


----------



## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> It’s not like I post more than a few times a week.


right. so when you say you're moving on, that means you're going to stick around and continue to post? gotcha.



Droppersneck said:


> You can’t always be right, why are these same issues such a common thread? Examine the body of work, is everyone of them just making up lies to smear your impeccable reputation, or perhaps could there be blame distributed more evenly.


i'm not perfect. far from it. i can admit when i'm wrong and have done so many times. but it's not necessarily a matter of right and wrong. we just have a different perspective.

i get it. you and your friends want to be able to call people nigger and faggot and lots of other racial and homophobic terms. i think we can set the bar a little higher. we have rules - hardly the most burdensome rules in the world - and we try to enforce them. the vitriolic, hateful response to that simple effort is out of all proportion to the action itself.



Droppersneck said:


> His judgement should be valued and warnings heeded.


his opinion is valued. as much as anybody else's.

alasdair


----------



## JessFR

Am I really a conservative though? I mean I'll freely admit to some traditionally conservative views.. But I suspect I'm in that "I'm half black and half white thus whites see me as black and blacks see me as white" situation.

That said.. Even if that's true, technically that should still work for your hypothetical, cause if liberals see me as conservative and liberals ban conservatives here, that should still result in me being banned too. 

But on the other hand, it could also mean my views aren't quite the same as the people getting banned, just that there's enough overlap that it looks similar to someone who disagrees with both variations. 

Not that I agree with this idea that people are getting banned for their views rather than their behavior. In truth I can't say that I know for sure one way or the other. It's just my strong impression that it's probably not true. I've still had plenty of heated arguments with mods here. And I appreciate that I've never felt at risk of abuses of power as a result. It's sadly all too common on internet communities, and bluelight is one of only a very rare few places I've not experienced it. So you can see how I'd be skeptical. 

Honestly... I actually have very little idea what's going on. My best guess from a total outsider perspective, is that the lounge was given lots of leniency, grew out of control, now its being brought under control, and this cluster fuck of e-drama is the result. If so that would explain why it seems so out of the blue to me, ive never been active in the lounge. 

I've browsed it a couple times out of curiosity, never had anything against it, but each time I determined it wasn't my thing. So no ill will, just disinterest.


----------



## Droppersneck

tathra said:


> the only "common thread" or "issues" is that its always the same small group of people posting objectionable content and then crying foul when the rules are enforced.
> 
> i feel bad for outing her, but JessFR is also a conservative, so if people are being banned for their views and not for breaking the rules then why isn't she getting banned too?


She’s the jeb bush to my donald trump. Liquid_method got rail roaded for wrong think. His ban was unadulterated hogwash, if I may say so myself. 


alasdairm said:


> right. so when you say you're moving on, that means you're going to stick around and continue to post? gotcha.
> 
> i'm not perfect. far from it. i can admit when i'm wrong and have done so many times. but it's not necessarily a matter of right and wrong. we just have a different perspective.
> 
> i get it. you and your friends want to be able to call people nigger and faggot and lots of other racial and homophobic terms. i think we can set the bar a little higher. we have rules - hardly the most burdensome rules in the world - and we try to enforce them. the vitriolic, hateful response to that simple effort is out of all proportion to the action itself.
> 
> his opinion is valued. as much as anybody else's.
> 
> alasdair



His opinion should be held a bit higher imo. I’m not homophobic, racist, or any of the rest of it, but humor was a large part of the lounge and censoring/putting it to the standard of what a blue haired San Fran feminist considers offensive is what killed it(no offense to San Fran blue haired feminists, just needed for anologous purposes). Systematically killing off the content providers of the lounge is what BPs gripe is about. I honestly can’t think of a single legit racist person that ever posted in the lounge. The Ironic is lost by you, and that’s why we are at page five of this shit show. Ftr I know why you implement the rules you did and I respect that, but I’m trying to bring some closure for all involved.


----------



## mal3volent

BP, time for you to step in. Your foot soldiers are falling by the wayside. What's it been now...4 days almost?


----------



## alasdairm

what's not a 'legit racist'? somebody who posts hateful, racist content but isn't actually a racist irl? lol.

losing all that content was a good thing, even if it means traffic has dropped off (which is has and which we're perfectly happy to state regardless of the lies).

it must be awful that you and your friends can't call people nigger and faggot on bluelight any more but life is hard. and if i had to do it again i would.

alasdair


----------



## cduggles

JessFR, you are a valued CE&P contributor. Full stop. You are capable of making intelligent arguments with civility. 

I share beliefs with libertarians (a lot actually), standard conservatism, and liberals. It's just easy to ignore things like that and name us conveniently. 

And I have no idea why CE&P always is microscrutinized, but it is.


----------



## cduggles

Captain.Heroin said:


> If this was at all a serious issue for B_P, a series of responses would be posted by now.



It's irresponsible to start a thread of this nature and leave it unattended. 

If one doesn't have time to do so, then one should wait until they do.

Actionable, useful items to improve BL in a positive way are what I want to hear. No vague gibberish. Let the alchemy commence.


----------



## Droppersneck

alasdairm said:


> what's not a 'legit racist'? somebody who posts hateful, racist content but isn't actually a racist irl? lol.
> 
> losing all that content was a good thing, even if it means traffic has dropped off (which is has and which we're perfectly happy to state regardless of the lies).
> 
> it must be awful that you and your friends can't call people nigger and faggot on bluelight any more but life is hard. and if i had to do it again i would.
> 
> alasdair



The policy is much more comprehensive and nuanced, as you know. It’s not just “faggot” and “nigger” that got you banned. The list of words and thoughts is endless. I’m not even gonna debate you on this, the humorless sjw VS regular people, is a battle going on all across the inter webs and college campuses across the country. I’m good with it, just be honest about it. When ‘faygo’ ‘esl’ ‘soyboy’ etc are all on this list, mind you the list “doesn’t exist”. Ftr I’m good with the rules too. 
And


----------



## alasdairm

Droppersneck said:


> ...the humorless sjw VS regular people...


yep. that's it exactly. nuance is dead.

for someone who doesn't want to debate it and is done for good and moving on, you sure are posting a lot... but i'm good with it. just be honest about it? 

alasdair


----------



## Jabberwocky

Droppersneck said:


> She’s the jeb bush to my donald trump. Liquid_method got rail roaded for wrong think. His ban was unadulterated hogwash, if I may say so myself.
> 
> 
> His opinion should be held a bit higher imo. I’m not homophobic, racist, or any of the rest of it, but humor was a large part of the lounge and censoring/putting it to the standard of what a blue haired San Fran feminist considers offensive is what killed it(no offense to San Fran blue haired feminists, just needed for anologous purposes). Systematically killing off the content providers of the lounge is what BPs gripe is about. I honestly can’t think of a single legit racist person that ever posted in the lounge. The Ironic is lost by you, and that’s why we are at page five of this shit show. Ftr I know why you implement the rules you did and I respect that, but I’m trying to bring some closure for all involved.



Why don’t we let BP speak for himself, yeah? 

Because if this thread has anything to do with anything it has to do with me calling him out on some issues a number of us have been trying to work on with him for some time now. 

Considering when BP created this thread, what it’s most likely about is him feeling shat on because he refuses to acknowledge his role in recent staff drama. By shat on I mean singled out and ignored. 

Thing is, the issues he has been involved with, it isn’t just his fault. It has been a number of staff getting into, and as they say it takes two to tango. The issue is that other staff members have been willing to chill the fuck out and move on, whereas he seems to be struggling with it. In fact he only seem to recognize his role narrowly in terms of being victimized. 

I got frustrated with him, angry to the point I stopped being my normal mature self and confronted him in a less than skillful way about the issue of him refusing to up his game, make some effort to stop being what I called divisive. Confronting him was obviously a mistake, but you will note I stepped up and apologize for as soon as I realized how he must have experienced our interaction. 

Confronting him about that in the frustrated way I did was not wise, but hey I never pretended to never make mistakes. Anyways, that’s some background on what was going on just prior to this. I understand where this thread is likely coming from, BPs frustration. 

What I dont understand is what this thread is about. I am looking forward to him informing us.


----------



## Droppersneck

I’m exaclrg right though. Just go through BLUA infraction histories, the list of banned things is literally endless. All at the quest of being ‘just a decent person’. Most comedians have a bit on this, at this point, there is a reason they won’t go to colleges anymore. And there’s a reason the lounge is deader than words. Just own it, and don’t place the blame on others. I still literally can’t think of a single lounger that held hate in their hearts for any race, gender, or sex.


----------



## Captain.Heroin

Droppersneck said:


> I?m exaclrg right though. Just go through BLUA infraction histories, the list of banned things is literally endless. All at the quest of being ?just a decent person?. Most comedians have a bit on this, at this point, there is a reason they won?t go to colleges anymore. And there?s a reason the lounge is deader than words. Just own it, and don?t place the blame on others. I still literally can?t think of a single lounger that held hate in their hearts for any race, gender, or sex.



That was a lovely disconnected series of ideas.

I would prefer it if you would discontinue posting disparaging things about Words.  People can post their creations and ideas there, discuss literature, and this does happen.  

I don't see you contributing, at all, or reading or discussing any intellectual ideas or books in Words.


----------



## mal3volent

Droppersneck said:


> I’m exaclrg right though. Just go through BLUA infraction histories, the list of banned things is literally endless. All at the quest of being ‘just a decent person’. Most comedians have a bit on this, at this point, there is a reason they won’t go to colleges anymore. And there’s a reason the lounge is deader than words. Just own it, and don’t place the blame on others. I still literally can’t think of a single lounger that held hate in their hearts for any race, gender, or sex.



it doesn't matter what's in the hearts when it comes to infracting. It's what's in their posts.

and trying to tie this to the free speech thing on college campuses is a bit of a stretch. But I understand alt righters have to tie a bunch of unrelated shit together in order to form their conspiracy theories.


----------



## JessFR

I know I don't know much about the in depth context here, so maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

But if the problem was that the lounge was behaving in violation to the rules, and someone or some group wanted to stop that, was there any reason the problem couldn't be solved by splitting it into two lounges? One, the public official lounge, that follows the BLUA. And another, more private lounge that has its own more relaxed rules?

This private lounge, whatever you wanna call it, you could perhaps make it invisible to unregistered users and greenlighters. Anything violating the rules of the public lounge could be moved to the private one. 

I dunno, it's just a thought. I can see the obvious reasons it would he unappealing. It would increase the workload for something that's supposed to be the off topic section of the forum to start with. I just can't help but read this thread and feel sad at how it feels like a small scale version of all the problems with human society ever. The inability for different human groups to really understand each other.

I guess I can't help but feel sympathetic to what both sides seem to be saying.


----------



## Jabberwocky

No, the issues behind this thread are not TL. Droppers et al decided to make this about TL. Maybe BP has been strategically waiting to see how shit would develop before sharing his thoughts, maybe not. 

BP might choose to make it about TL now thanks to droppers influence, but this thread comes as a direct response to staff like myself trying to get BP to stop inflaming passions unnecessarily and starting drama in the staff forum. 

I mean, I’m sure TL is part of it somewhere, but I can say with fair certainty this comes as a result of him feeling victimized by staff for not acting professional - behavior he has justified as sticking up for himself, defending his value not to be criticized. He has made sticking up for himself (as he describes it) incompatible with role on staff. 

It’s frustrating for me because I do not want to lose him as a staff member - he has done a lot of good work for the site in TL. But he making it impossible, so he needs to figure out what he really wants. To “stand up for himself” or to be part of a team.  

But now I have totally digressed, and now I’ve probably provoked him with slightly confrontational post. Then again, he seems the way to deal with this is to levy serious accusations against staff, so it isn’t like he is any better. Drama drama drama. 

Let’s see what he says. 

Thanks for your contributes Jess, I can only imagine how weird this must be for someone who has no idea where this is coming from or isn’t intimately involved with efforts to discredit BL (that would be droppers). 

Anyways I appreciate someone who clearly doesn’t seem to have a bone to pick, especially in this thread. It’s so fucking irritating.


----------



## mal3volent

Jess...all they were asked to do was to refrain from using racist, sexist, or homophobic language. That's all. But they need that to get their thrills, so they left. No ones going to create another Lounge where that kinda thing is ok.


----------



## Jabberwocky

Don’t forget the racist, homophobia, sexist memes either... 8)


----------



## cduggles

JessFR: Tbc, I'm no expert, but my understanding was that at a certain point the Lounge was private or somehow restricted. 

It's gone through many changes. Even the name was changed. 

It's a v long, convoluted story. 

The bottom line is that there is a v vocal minority who are nostalgic for the old days or the others who don't care but just like to make trouble.


----------



## JessFR

mal3volent said:


> Jess...all they were asked to do was to refrain from using racist, sexist, or homophobic language. That's all. But they need that to get their thrills, so they left. No ones going to create another Lounge where that kinda thing is ok.



I understand that, and that's where I feel divided and yet sympathetic to both sides. Cause on the one hand, I get that some people honestly feel hurt by such language, and I get that others don't.. But pretend they do because they think they're supposed to. And others still don't, but pretend they do to create controversy and bring disrepute onto the person who wrote it. All reasons to not have it. 

Yet on the other hand, I think racist and sexist joking around, which can look like the real thing, can also serve to undermine and expose the real thing for the silly joke of an idea that it is. And work as a bonding exercise between people in knowing they can say anything to each other with no ill intent. 

And those groups can come into conflict even though neither really intended harm or dishonesty, and then both come to dislike each other and further see themselves as the right side and the other as the wrong side. 

Then further complicating it is you have the actual racist and sexists, and the actual racist and sexists who pretend they're joking around when they're really serious and using the idea that they're joking as an out. Plus the people who aren't sexist or racist, but use the language not for fun or social bonding either, but just to create conflict and troll people. 

It all collapses together into a giant mess of misunderstanding and drama that is the human condition. What's important is knowing your audience and understanding the context, and being able to see the real intents. The truth is shrouded in the subtle gray areas.

And you end up with lots of people fighting, some see the other as obsessed with social justice and language at the expense of meaning. Some see racists and sexists and bigots who hide behind humor and free speech. Both are correct, and both are wrong. Both extremes exist, fueled by the small minority. But most of it is fairly well meaning people coming to see anyone who isn't them as the worst of and most extreme of the other broad group.

The only way to really know who's who, is to really know each other.


----------



## Blue_Phlame

5 pages of replies to this thread is a lot to reply to, and my original goal of addressing everyone's comments is more than I expected after taking a personal day to reflect on the replies; letting the conversation simmer to reduce heated exchanges tends to lead to more conducive and thought-out responses.

I'm pleased with the response this topic received, and all the questions people brought up. For the most part, there is a desire to understand the reason(s) for me posting this thread, and hopefully I can explain my reasons. 



> There is an inadequate level of checks-and-balances on Bluelight that regulate the actions of some staff members.


It's hard to measure exactly what makes an organization corrupt, there's a whole slew of characteristics that can put an organization at risk for corruption - I can't say that i'm an expert at identifying all those risks, but will say that checks-and-balances will help keep it from getting to the point of irredeemable corruption. That's the main theme for me creating this thread. Not to expose the organization as being corrupt, or the members who I believe are contributing to the risk of potential corruption, but to encourage self-checks in the administration to identify the patterns of behavior of its staff that lead to unfair and unjust actions. I will give specific examples a little later.

Most of the points I wanted to talk about were already brought up by other members, and through this discussion we can identify the problem areas that cause disjointedness between staff and its members. Some of the claims made by some members about the state of Bluelight and/or the staff aren't founded on anything else but a hunch or a suspicion, and a rational person would seek to find reasons for these claims rather than dismissing them as conspiracy. Claims that The Lounge was never meant to be shut down, and having to see it dwindle from being the most active forum on the site to a forum that barely gets more than a handful of posts daily - there are reasons for this, and i'm willing to believe that it's due to other reasons that aren't due to management purposefully killing that forum. But when I see patterns of behavior that allude to systematic picking-off of specific members that make up the biggest contributions to The Lounge, with an overwhelmingly positive response in favor of infracting/banning, and retaliation against the person who disagrees, then it starts to look like a "my way or the highway" type of scenario - especially if no one else is willing to defend the non-conformist.

[edited]

Just from the first page, i've been slandered with negative comments with no reasonable evidence and contemptuous opinions. I've been told:
? That what I posted isn't true / isn't factual
? that i'm fishing for negative commentary
? that I haven't made any effort to substantiate anything
? that i'm defending posts that are racist, sexist, homophobic
? that my posts aren't constructive
? that my posts are a confusing spray at people
? that my post is a personal beef made public
? that i've chosen not to step up and sit in the sidelines
? that i'm immature and belligerent
? that i'm too bitter
? that my intent is somehow comparable to Hitler and Osama Bin Laden's
? that my post is vague and impotent
? that my post makes no sense
? that I was feeling bold when I made this thread
? that I've got a sandy vagina
? that i'm maliciously shit-stirring with no intention of adding to beneficial discussion
? there is no basis to this besides personal drama
? that I'm one of the two staff members who thinks there's a conspiracy
? that i'm a whiner
? that i'm a constant moaner
? that i'm piling on criticism and negativity
? that other members are just taking my word for there being something wrong on staff
? that i'm not being honest
? that my focus is on allowing racist of bigoted material

This is just from the first page, and all of it is from current and former staff.  Tell me, is this how a reasonable and rational discussion on appropriate behavior is supposed to look like? The few bad apples on staff make these comments, this sets the pace for everyone else to jump on the bashing bandwagon. Several times I have reported a post made by another staff member on the forums, addressing the issue of hypocrisy. The concern of my report was dismissed, and ended up being an attack on my character by several other staff members. Pointing out the problems I see as they come up is something a responsible staff member should be doing if they're at all concerned about the way things are executed.  If an organization sees any criticisms of its staff behaviors as an attack, then what hope is there in curbing unethical behavior? Thankfully, there is a platform where a member can give feedback or criticisms, most of them are responded to and addressed, despite the profuse objections that there even is a problem. 

[edited]

The audacity of some staff to be so happy about banning other members. First by vilifying them to absolve themselves from guilt, then issuing permanent infractions, and patting each other on the back for getting rid of their artificial threat.

I can't believe i'm spending so much time writing about all this when it'll likely not change anything for the better, but rather give me more guff...


----------



## Captain.Heroin

RP posts are staff-only material.  Please don’t leak staff-only information.


----------



## mal3volent

Jess..Sigh...all that's great...

then again we could just not post racist, sexist, or homophobic material. 

If you can't talk shit, build camaraderie, have fun, and exercise your freedom of speech without doing that...maybe go somewhere else.


----------



## tathra

JessFR said:


> But if the problem was that the lounge was behaving in violation to the rules, and someone or some group wanted to stop that, was there any reason the problem couldn't be solved by splitting it into two lounges? One, the public official lounge, that follows the BLUA. And another, more private lounge that has its own more relaxed rules?
> 
> This private lounge, whatever you wanna call it, you could perhaps make it invisible to unregistered users and greenlighters. Anything violating the rules of the public lounge could be moved to the private one.



rules are rules because they apply equally to everyone.  if they dont apply to everyone equally then they're little more than excuses to justify abuses of authority.  there _is_ a "secret" lounge btw (and i dont mean the staff forums), unregistered, greenlighters, and bluelighters cant access or see it, but the bluelight user agreement still applies there same as it does everywhere else on the board.

if people want to post and continue posting here then they have to abide by the rules, rules they agreed to follow when the signed up.  i dont get how this is so hard to understand (and thats not aimed at you, jess, i know you're just trying to be helpful).  one of our responsibilities as moderators is to ensure that the rules are followed, so when people continue to willfully break the rules, its our job to try to get them to stop - by telling them that they are, in fact, breaking the rules so that we can be sure they're aware and that they understand that they are breaking them, and asking them, publicly and/or privately, to follow the rules, or by issuing warnings and/or infractions, escalating as necessary - and if they still refuse to follow the rules then we're left with no other option but to give them a temporary vacation from the board.

if people want to post content that is against the rules here, they're free to do so, *so long as they arent posting it here*.



mal3volent said:


> it doesn't matter what's in the hearts when it comes to infracting. It's what's in their posts.



this.  unintended results of one's actions dont absolve one of responsibility for those actions.


----------



## mal3volent

Just to let everyone know, BPs much anticipated post fits in exactly with his recent pattern of trouble making. He deliberately does something he knows will piss people off. He runs away and lets it fester. After everyone's nerves are worn thin, he comes in and plays the victim.


----------



## Blue_Phlame

Let me try...
mal3volent is a disturbed individual who likes to vilify other people and play the victim. He sucks up to other people and cries like a little child when things don't go his way. He projects his own inadequacies onto others and deliberately has an agenda to slander another person he has a personal beef with without substantiating any evidence. He knows he won't be criticized for his observation, so he has no qualms in exaggerating claims against another person.
CUT IT OUT mal3volent, you're trying to get a rise out of me. You have not helped in this conversation and are only here to cause drama.

Likely, by bringing myself down to the same level of immaturity, and treating the other person the same way they treat me ... I will be punished and told "you should know better" or something along those lines... How is that not fair?




Captain.Heroin said:


> RP posts are staff-only material.  Please don’t leak staff-only information.



I did not post anyone's names, or quote content from the RPs. non-staff members won't know who or what i'm referring to, the details I mentioned were an attempt to help my case.


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## cduggles

So basically you wanted to whinge about criticism of you in public? You even took time to make a little list. Okay.

And corruption? That's a big word to throw out. You had better back up the insinuation that it somehow exists or might exist here.

I hope that isn't the well thought out post we're all eager to see. 

And no, you haven't spent nearly enough time on this thread. You just started a wildfire and let it burn.


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## mal3volent

Blue_Phlame said:


> I did not post anyone's names, or quote content from the RPs. non-staff members won't know who or what i'm referring to, the details I mentioned were an attempt to help my case.



Nah man. You fucked up.


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## tathra

Blue_Phlame said:


> Some of the claims made by some members about the state of Bluelight and/or the staff aren't founded on anything else but a hunch or a suspicion



seeing as you still havent provided any examples or evidence of anything, it seems like your own posts are the main thing being described here.


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## JessFR

tathra said:


> rules are rules because they apply equally to everyone.  if they dont apply to everyone equally then they're little more than excuses to justify abuses of authority.  there _is_ a "secret" lounge btw (and i dont mean the staff forums), unregistered, greenlighters, and bluelighters cant access or see it, but the bluelight user agreement still applies there same as it does everywhere else on the board.
> 
> if people want to post and continue posting here then they have to abide by the rules, rules they agreed to follow when the signed up.  i dont get how this is so hard to understand (and thats not aimed at you, jess, i know you're just trying to be helpful).  one of our responsibilities as moderators is to ensure that the rules are followed, so when people continue to willfully break the rules, its our job to try to get them to stop - by telling them that they are, in fact, breaking the rules so that we can be sure they're aware and that they understand that they are breaking them, and asking them, publicly and/or privately, to follow the rules, or by issuing warnings and/or infractions, escalating as necessary - and if they still refuse to follow the rules then we're left with no other option but to give them a temporary vacation from the board.
> 
> if people want to post content that is against the rules here, they're free to do so, *so long as they arent posting it here*.
> 
> 
> 
> this.  unintended results of one's actions dont absolve one of responsibility for those actions.



The rules are the rules, but the rules can be changed. They aren't static. There may be good reasons my suggestion isn't desirable or feasible, I can think of some myself. But "the rules are the rules" isn't one of them. There is nothing, absolutely not a thing in the world stopping the higher ups changing the rules to create a section of the site where the default rules don't apply. It already exists. Harm reduction rules in drug culture are enforced differently allowing posts that are not allowed elsewhere.

The rules should be the same for everyone, but they don't have to be the same everywhere. 

The rules aren't set in stone. Abuse is caused by abusive people. Abusive people will use both the argument that the rules are static and beyond their control and also that the rules are dynamic and open to interpretation whenever it suits the situation to their preference whichever way they like. 

The rules are there so everyone knows what's expected of them. People shouldn't get a pass for playing lawyer or looking for loopholes, much like with real law, intent is very important. And again like real law, the rules can be changed if its deemed appropriate. And as is already the case both in real life and already here on bluelight, different areas can have different standards.

The creation of an area of the site with lax content rules may well be a bad idea, but not because of anything to do with the rules of rules.


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## Captain.Heroin

Blue_Phlame said:


> Let me try...
> mal3volent is a disturbed individual who likes to vilify other people and play the victim. He sucks up to other people and cries like a little child when things don't go his way. He projects his own inadequacies onto others and deliberately has an agenda to slander another person he has a personal beef with without substantiating any evidence. He knows he won't be criticized for his observation, so he has no qualms in exaggerating claims against another person.
> CUT IT OUT mal3volent, you're trying to get a rise out of me. You have not helped in this conversation and are only here to cause drama.
> 
> Likely, by bringing myself down to the same level of immaturity, and treating the other person the same way they treat me ... I will be punished and told "you should know better" or something along those lines... How is that not fair?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did not post anyone's names, or quote content from the RPs. non-staff members won't know who or what i'm referring to, the details I mentioned were an attempt to help my case.



You made a laundary list of stuff people said about you and then slung shit at staff.  

Don?t leak staff only information. Please redact it from your post.

Your reply was convoluted and didn’t address many (all?) of the responses people had to your first post.


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## mal3volent

Blue_Phlame said:


> To put it plainly, these two and two other staff members are the biggest culprits of the problem.



Plain would be one way to describe this post. How many accusations are you going to make without anything to back them up?


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## Blue_Phlame

tathra said:


> seeing as you still havent provided any examples or evidence of anything, it seems like your own posts are the main thing being described here.



I just received a PM saying that I cannot post any materials that originate from the staff forums, even with no mention to names or specific posts.

Show proof!
-I can't because it's staff-only info
Oh well then post it in the staff forums!
-Where i'm a vocal minority and will be ass-blasted by the majority.


mal3volent said:


> Plain would be one way to describe this post. How many accusations are you going to make without anything to back them up?


I could say the same thing to you.


Captain.Heroin said:


> You made a laundary list of stuff people said about you and then slung shit at staff.
> 
> Don?t leak staff only information. Please redact it from your post.
> 
> Your reply was convoluted and didn’t address many (all?) of the responses people had to your first post.



The laundry list is only the tip of the iceberg at what people have been accusing me of. There wouldn't be a laundry list if people didn't sling shit at me first. 

My reply isn't as good as I wanted either, because i'm not fully invested in combating every single point everyone made. If that was the case, i'd be here after midnight, and i've already spent my whole day responding. My mind is elsewhere, and bringing myself back to this issue is making my brain hate me because it would much rather be outside doing something much more enjoyable.


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## mal3volent

Blue_Phlame said:


> Let me try...
> mal3volent is a disturbed individual who likes to vilify other people and play the victim. He sucks up to other people and cries like a little child when things don't go his way. He projects his own inadequacies onto others and deliberately has an agenda to slander another person he has a personal beef with without substantiating any evidence. He knows he won't be criticized for his observation, so he has no qualms in exaggerating claims against another person.
> CUT IT OUT mal3volent, you're trying to get a rise out of me. You have not helped in this conversation and are only here to cause drama.
> 
> Likely, by bringing myself down to the same level of immaturity, and treating the other person the same way they treat me ... I will be punished and told "you should know better" or something along those lines... How is that not fair?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did not post anyone's names, or quote content from the RPs. non-staff members won't know who or what i'm referring to, the details I mentioned were an attempt to help my case.



go back and edit a post ten minutes later to add in personal attacks against me. All I said was, you fucked up by posting stuff you knew better than to post. You did. So what? Was that really cause to attack me?


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## SheWasLvL18

JessFR said:


> The rules are the rules, but the rules can be changed. They aren't static. There may be good reasons my suggestion isn't desirable or feasible, I can think of some myself. But "the rules are the rules" isn't one of them. There is nothing, absolutely not a thing in the world stopping the higher ups changing the rules to create a section of the site where the default rules don't apply. It already exists. Harm reduction rules in drug culture are enforced differently allowing posts that are not allowed elsewhere.
> 
> The rules should be the same for everyone, but they don't have to be the same everywhere.
> 
> The rules aren't set in stone. Abuse is caused by abusive people. Abusive people will use both the argument that the rules are static and beyond their control and also that the rules are dynamic and open to interpretation whenever it suits the situation to their preference whichever way they like.
> 
> The rules are there so everyone knows what's expected of them. People shouldn't get a pass for playing lawyer or looking for loopholes, much like with real law, intent is very important. And again like real law, the rules can be changed its deemed appropriate..



Much respect JessFR, but I just wanted to add my thoughts. 

I think you're right that some rules are more relaxed on Drug Culture.  I'll admit I don't have them all memorized, but sometimes there are posts that may not be entirely focused on HR and I've made a few of those myself.  However, I feel like making a separate set of rules or area of the site would distract from the goal of HR or at least devalue the rules in place.  Like if the administration doesn't even believe in their own rules enough to enforce them than why have them?

Also like real laws, nothing is perfect and there will always be ways to manipulate the situation or find a loophole.  That being said, I think the situation is better the way it is now: a common set of rules that promote HR and the goals of Bluelight, while being relaxed enough to allow people to socialize and enjoy their time as well.

Admittedly, I might have a different view of Bluelight as I never used it as socially as some of the more frequent users and maybe I have a bit of an idealistic view of the site, but I think a lot of people who use the site do so for more than just banter.


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## cduggles

Blue_Phlame said:


> Let me try...
> mal3volent is a disturbed individual who likes to vilify other people and play the victim. He sucks up to other people and cries like a little child when things don't go his way. He projects his own inadequacies onto others and deliberately has an agenda to slander another person he has a personal beef with without substantiating any evidence. He knows he won't be criticized for his observation, so he has no qualms in exaggerating claims against another person.
> CUT IT OUT mal3volent, you're trying to get a rise out of me. You have not helped in this conversation and are only here to cause drama.
> 
> Likely, by bringing myself down to the same level of immaturity, and treating the other person the same way they treat me ... I will be punished and told "you should know better" or something along those lines... How is that not fair?
> 
> I did not post anyone's names, or quote content from the RPs. non-staff members won't know who or what i'm referring to, the details I mentioned were an attempt to help my case.



I think mal3volent has been one of the most articulate posters in this thread you abandoned. Your post about him is uncalled for and unbecoming. 

You just showed everyone reading this exactly who you are. 

Many BLers have stated in this very thread that they make mistakes. It's a sign of strength of character to be able to admit when you are wrong and move past it.


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## Blue_Phlame

You are the worst ^


mal3volent said:


> go back and edit a post ten minutes later to add in personal attacks against me. All I said was, you fucked up by posting stuff you knew better than to post. You did. So what? Was that really cause to attack me?


mal3volent, your reading comprehension is abysmal. 

I said "by bringing myself down to the same level of immaturity, and treating the other person the same way they treat me ... I will be punished and told "you should know better" or something along those lines... How is that not fair?"


----------



## JessFR

SheWasLvL18 said:


> Much respect JessFR, but I just wanted to add my thoughts.
> 
> I think you're right that some rules are more relaxed on Drug Culture.  I'll admit I don't have them all memorized, but sometimes there are posts that may not be entirely focused on HR and I've made a few of those myself.  However, I feel like making a separate set of rules or area of the site would distract from the goal of HR or at least devalue the rules in place.  Like if the administration doesn't even believe in their own rules enough to enforce them than why have them?
> 
> Also like real laws, nothing is perfect and there will always be ways to manipulate the situation or find a loophole.  That being said, I think the situation is better the way it is now: a common set of rules that promote HR and the goals of Bluelight, while being relaxed enough to allow people to socialize and enjoy their time as well.
> 
> Admittedly, I might have a different view of Bluelight as I never used it as socially as some of the more frequent users and maybe I have a bit of an idealistic view of the site, but I think a lot of people who use the site do so for more than just banter.



I don't see how it can devalue the rules in place any more so than the existing exceptions. Although I wasn't suggesting an entirely different set of rules, just a section where the rules of hateful language are more focused on underlying intent than the actual words, so basically more relaxed and less strict.

You make a good point that I've been thinking for a while regarding this thread. Bluelight is first and foremost about drug harm reduction. So I understand and agree that focusing on the community section and free speech can be distracting. Which is why I'm not sure myself that the idea of a separate free speech lounge is all that desirable. I brought it up more to try and point out that compromise is possible and that a lot of this seems to me like a question of desire to compromise. Or rather the lack thereof. I said before I feel broad sympathy to a lot of the conflicting views here, because I don't sense nearly as much malice by anyone as it seems like people keep seeing. I understand why people see it, but I don't. Anyway, in feeling that broad sympathy, I wanted to show that perhaps this could be approached with a greater emphasis on understanding and compromise.


----------



## tathra

JessFR said:


> The rules are the rules, but the rules can be changed. They aren't static. There may be good reasons my suggestion isn't desirable or feasible, I can think of some myself. But "the rules are the rules" isn't one of them. There is nothing, absolutely not a thing in the world stopping the higher ups changing the rules to create a section of the site where the default rules don't apply. It already exists. Harm reduction rules in drug culture are enforced differently allowing posts that are not allowed elsewhere.
> 
> The rules should be the same for everyone, but they don't have to be the same everywhere.
> 
> The rules aren't set in stone. Abuse is caused by abusive people. Abusive people will use both the argument that the rules are static and beyond their control and also that the rules are dynamic and open to interpretation whenever it suits the situation to their preference whichever way they like.
> 
> The rules are there so everyone knows what's expected of them. People shouldn't get a pass for playing lawyer or looking for loopholes, much like with real law, intent is very important. And again like real law, the rules can be changed if its deemed appropriate. And as is already the case both in real life and already here on bluelight, different areas can have different standards.
> 
> The creation of an area of the site with lax content rules may well be a bad idea, but not because of anything to do with the rules of rules.



you're exactly right.  "respect the rules because they're the rules" is something of a tautology.  the rules can indeed be changed, i kind of like the idea of having a section of the board where the rules are more lax, but that brings all kinds of other issues with it, like how does one get access, just how lax should they be, should they be more lax for some than others, etc.  at the end of the day, its easier to just have that set up somewhere else than to have some special "rules dont apply" area of the board (and there are several other communities of bluelighters that are separate from bluelight.org, where the BLUA doesnt apply).



Blue_Phlame said:


> I just received a PM saying that I cannot post any materials that originate from the staff forums, even with no mention to names or specific posts.
> 
> Show proof!
> -I can't because it's staff-only info
> Oh well then post it in the staff forums!
> -Where i'm a vocal minority and will be ass-blasted by the majority.



so basically you're admitting that you took to unnecessarily airing your grievances in public because you dont have the courage or integrity to discuss them in the proper place?  if there is a real, objective issue here that can be properly substantiated then being the "vocal minority" shouldnt matter, making improvements and righting legitimate wrongs speak for themselves, and if the issues are legit then you wouldnt be alone in your concern about them.  something tells me that you know there's not really anything to this though since you didnt even try to discuss them in the proper manner, in the proper place, and instead went right to creating a public invitation to hurl shit at the staff.


----------



## mal3volent

Blue_Phlame said:


> You are the worst ^
> 
> mal3volent, your reading comprehension is abysmal.
> 
> I said "by bringing myself down to the same level of immaturity, and treating the other person the same way they treat me ... I will be punished and told "you should know better" or something along those lines... How is that not fair?"



so why did you make all those personal attacks on me again? In addition to the one you just made, about my reading comprehension?


----------



## Blue_Phlame

tathra said:


> you're exactly right.  "respect the rules because they're the rules" is something of a tautology.  the rules can indeed be changed, i kind of like the idea of having a section of the board where the rules are more lax, but that brings all kinds of other issues with it, like how does one get access, just how lax should they be, should they be more lax for some than others, etc.  at the end of the day, its easier to just have that set up somewhere else than to have some special "rules dont apply" area of the board (and there are several other communities of bluelighters that are separate from bluelight.org, where the BLUA doesnt apply).
> 
> 
> 
> so basically you're admitting that you took to unnecessarily airing your grievances in public because you dont have the courage or integrity to discuss them in the proper place?  if there is a real, objective issue here that can be properly substantiated then being the "vocal minority" shouldnt matter, making improvements and righting legitimate wrongs speak for themselves, and if the issues are legit then you wouldnt be alone in your concern about them.  something tells me that you know there's not really anything to this though since you didnt even try to discuss them in the proper manner, in the proper place, and instead went right to creating a public invitation to hurl shit at the staff.



The only thing I'll admit is that I responded to this thread as soon as I could devote some time to it. I'll also admit that taking on a whole organization is more than I could handle, especially after letting the thread accumulate 5 pages of lengthy posts to address... Perhaps i'm still not in the right state of mind and responded to this thread too soon.


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## alasdairm

well, this blew up fast. there's a lot of personal stuff being slung now and i'm not sure i want this to descend any further.

so this is closed for now. i'll consider reopening it monday.

please, everybody, don't start this up again in a new thread. take a breath. go for a walk. whatever it takes to deescalate.

censorship! oppression! irony!

out.

alasdair


----------

