# Poker



## Rusty Cage

I started playing poker about a month ago, and since then I've moved on to online play for real cash. Early last week I deposited 30, and have since turned it into 150. I have found the game to fill a niche that was once filled by a much more expensive card game *cough*magic*cough*. Not to mention I feel like I have a natural nack for the game. 

And anyways I was just wondering if anyone here plays. I was wondering if anyone had figured out a way to read some of the online players. If I could tell what half the field was doing I'd feel much more in control of the game, for now the only tell I get is the bet, and it's hard to spot tells on a bet.


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## Glory Hole

You suck at poker. I can botally byeat u. srlsy. I bet you 988882282882828 dollars that i get a n ace of spades.


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## Hypnotik1

Never played online.....cuz of the fact u can only read what cards they play.....and body language (which tells u alot) cant be seen online....

Its much more fun if u play w/ a group of people.....much more strategy involved....

so to answer ur question.....I dunno


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## onetwothreefour

where do you play, mister cage? i'm quite shit, but it would be interesting to try. and if i got good i must say that i quite like getting money when it requires little effort


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## sourlemone

Are you drinking bourbon and smoking a cigar while you play?

No?

Then you're not a real man.

(by the way, I know what cards you have. Sucker.)


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## Albert Walker

I play with two different groups, one on Friday night and one on Sunday afternoon.  My Friday night group has excellent players.  Sunday is full of younger players who are very easy to sucker and bully around by being aggressive.  I usually do quite well, won $140 last night .  

For online play I play at PokerStars.  Watching how people bet and how long it takes them to bet you can usually get a good idea at what they have.  Also looking at how they bet compared to what size thier stack is can tell alot also.  

Suckering people is my favorite strategy.  Last night I flopped 2 pair and hit a fh (queens over fours on fourth street).  Checked all the way through.  River was jack and I saw the chip leader (had only 25% more then me) liked the river and made somethuing good which was a straight(9-K).  I called all in got called and then alls I had to do was bully the remaining chips from him and the other person that was left.

A good place to really learn online play and strategy is to play the Sit&Go tournaments on PokerStars.  Just dont even bet on first 3 hands unless you have a high pocket pair because all the suckers try to all in at very beginning and it is very likely to get out drawn.


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## Rusty Cage

I'm not a fan of poker stars... too many big random occurances happen way too often in big pots. 

I play on Absolute poker. It's not really that hard to minimize the risks, such as going into low stakes games, and things, then only betting on the premium hands and trapping inexperianced players and takin their loot. I was just wondering if there was a way to be a bit more accurate with it. ( I suppose take notes huh )


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## onetwothreefour

^^^ can you play non-cash games on that site?


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## Rusty Cage

you sure can


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## onetwothreefour

IT'S JUST LIKE PLACING BRICKS IN SMALL PLASTIC CANS.

but different, of course.


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## LoonEDnB

haahahahahahaha you played Magic?


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## Wild1Xu

Im a Party Poker girl... Basically I cant read anyone... but I always win so whatever Im doing is working!


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## iLoveYouWithaKnife

*The title of this thread made me laugh.*

Poke her.


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## Rusty Cage

Liquor up front, poker in the rear.


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## middle finger

Poker is fantastic. We play a few times a week. 2 weeks ago I won a $600 tourny (and haven't won anything since, besides $30 last night). Normally we play $10 or $20 tournaments, but sometimes stakes get much higher. Personally I don't really like online poker. It takes the psychological warfare out of the game. Lots of my friend play online, and most of then are good players, yet they still lose at the end of the day. And I will only play no limit  Texas Hold'em. Good luck you sharks!


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## JB

I play for fun on truepoker.com.

If anyone plays that do a search for "thehood" and say hello.

I normaly play holdem.


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## iLoveYouWithaKnife

he heh.  Poke her.


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## JB

Poke her till all her chips fall out her pockets.

Or just poke her in to the river (sorry such bad pun)


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## alasdairm

_Originally posted by middle finger _
*And I will only play no limit  Texas Hold'em.* 
me too - for me, it's the most beautiful card game.

i generally play about once a week at home with room-mates and friends. we either play a $10 buy-in game or we play a couple or three $5 tournaments. i like tournament play.

i played in my first casino poker tournament recently and came in 25th place - not in the money but it was a thrill playing in a casino environment.

alasdair


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## JV

i usually play no limit omaha on pokerstars.  my name on there is starsglowin, so if anyone plays whatever on there, find me sometime.  

ive never played in a tourny w/ people that i dont know.  i would love to though.  i played one tourny on pokerstars and out of about 7000 people, i finished 155.  i was happy w/ that.


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## JB

Seriously download hi res client from truepoker.com beats poker stars hands down


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## JV

^^will do.


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## JB

You downloaded it yet?


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## JV

yea, i got it, and i like it for playing no limit hold em, but for omaha, there arent enough people on the site yet (i think).  i went to n/l omaha and there was only one table open, and i played for a little bit, then went and played hold em.  

i definately like it more than pokerstars though, like you said.  my name on truepoker is starsglowin as well.  

Johny, i looked for you yesterday, but you werent on, or were on a different server.  do you play n/l hold em?


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## JB

yeah I only play n/l holdem on there. Normaly on play for fun server 2.

I'll look for you name when I go on.


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## pokerdealer2005

I deal on the strip here in Vegas, and the game has really exploded down there.


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## ANDO420

LoonEDnB said:
			
		

> *haahahahahahaha you played Magic? *




hey man, there ain't nothin wrong with a good old magic game man, but yea it does cost a shitload to play


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## PGTips

A friend introduced me to vcstudentpoker.com and I play it now and again. I'm about even over all. Lost about $40 and won about the same, so not too bad.

A friend is hopelessly addicted to it. He's 6 weeks away from his university finals and instead of doing coursework has spent the whole of our 6 week Easter holiday playing poker. Every day goes online around 2pm and comes offline around 2am. He knows his shit though, its a bad day it he's only up $100. He's had days of being up over $1000, winning hands worth $800 sometimes! For a student thats a serious amount of money! For anyone, thats a serious amount of money in 1 day!


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## Mysterier

Poker is fun, yes, I play tonight.


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## BA

Ugh, I lost $40 over the weekend playing no-limit hold em.

Fuck it, you win some and you lose some.


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## ANDO420

^^yea but I lose more than I win     (in poker that is)


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## kappadaftie

i posted this in another thread a while ago but here it is again.

In case any of you poker people are students, there is an online poker championship where you can win your fees (up to $41k).  Its completely free to enter, you never need to give your card details, and you can qualify for the main event via one of the remaining few satellites.

If you want in, send me a PM and i will send you the details.


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## Rusty Cage

So Whats your favorite hand?


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## Petersko

I'm up about $1400 in my poker playing career. I host a low-stakes game once every two weeks.



> Sunday is full of younger players who are very easy to sucker and bully around by being aggressive.



That's a great way to shrink your player base. You'll be the most bad-ass pot bully around, but you'll have nobody to play with.

At our tables everybody's good enough now to recognize a pot bully and take them apart.



> And I will only play no limit Texas Hold'em.



And that's a good way to limit your future in the game.

No limit sucks for a home game. There's no fun in losing broadway to aces over tens, and being out half an hour into the game. Bad beats are a lot different when your stack is on the line. 

The majority of casino pay tables play limit. I will not have a completely no-limit evening game at my place - most I'll go is pot limit.

Learn to command both and you'll extend both your skillset and your enjoyment.

Our game this friday starts at 8:00 p.m.. First three hours are limit hold'em with a $25 buy-in, and after that there's a $20/head no-limit tourney. Third gets their money back, second gets $40, and first takes $100.

The trick to having a successful, long-lived regular home game is to make sure even the people who lose are happy with their evening of poker.


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## Petersko

Last Thursday I was playing at a local casino pay table (3/6 limit).

Two guys arrived at the table, brand new to playing the game at a casino, and not very experiened in the game. It was the hold'em half hour (alternating half hours of hold'em and omaha).

When one of them picked up his two cards his eyes lit right up. Figured him for high pair. He had $50 in chips.

I had K/Q, and the flop came A/J/10, rainbow. Unless a pair came up to allow for a full house, I had the nuts.

When the ace hit the board, his eyes lit up again, and I knew he was sitting on trip aces. He bet, everybody else was out, and I considered my options.

I could have crushed him right out of his entire stack in that single first hand, but I chose to just call his bets and win the smallest he'd let me get away with.

He was shocked when he lost. Bad intro to poker at the casino.

My point is, there are friendly games, and there are tournaments. You don't have to play every hand like it's your last. You don't get better by playing mercilessly.

Too many damn hot-headed young people playing the game who feel it's a deadly serious life and death struggle to milk every dollar possible out of every hand.

Relax, pay attention, and you'll learn just as much without making everybody else regret playing with you.


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## BA

For every 1 poker outing I bring money home, I usually do 2 that I lose. So a 1:2 ratio is about where I'm at. I usually play no limit Texas hold 'em, unlimited buy backs, .50 and 1.00 blinds, no antes. I got tired with "friendly games because at the end of a 6 hour game I'd only be up 75% - 100% of what I started out with (usually $20).

With no limit, I can go up 4 - 5 times what I started out with, and actually make decent money. I don't have a problem check, raise, re-raising to their entire stack if it means getting them out of the game and their chips in front of me. This is what some people call "bullying", but bullying is what brings the $$ home. Also, the odds of winning hands increase with less players at the board, because the likelyhood of someone else holding a better hand decreases.

I'd recommend watching 'Poker for Dummies', I borrowed it from the library and it helped alot in reading "tells", both conscious and subconscious ones. (Jittery hands, reaction times, how a player flips the chips out, how fast they call, how to spot a pot stealer, what a player who looks around the room very uninterested means, etc.)


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## Petersko

Where do you find regular no-limit games? Only ones around here are tournaments with no rebuys once it's no limit.

My home games are always $50 stake. Some people buy back in. Mind you, I play with industry people with established careers. A $100 loss is three hours or less of wages.

Our record is held by me - I cashed out $220 after five hours.

Yeah, I play better at a short table (6 people or less). I think everybody does.

If you really want an insight into tells, check out Mike Caro's Book of Poker Tells.

My way of thinking for home games is that if everybody plays deadly serious and people get busted out, pretty soon there won't be enough regular players. I want to host that game for a long time, so it behooves us to keep it as friendly as possible.


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## BA

I get together with friends from school, and their friends, and then they bring friends, etc. I played Saturday with 15 other guys and 2 girls (18 total). Ten at one table, and 8 at the other. You could cash out whenever you wanted, so technically you could win your 1st two hands and cash right out. 

It's never more than 20 bucks to buy in, and I've only been suckered into buying back in once. (   )


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## Rusty Cage

Haha SUCKER!


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## Stasis

Don't say I never gave you guys anything.

Texas Holdem Secrets


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## alasdairm

i went along to the world series of poker today at harvey's casino in south lake tahoe. it was the final table - the only two guys i recognised were phil ivey and joe awada. there was a guy called jonathan shecter who looked pretty familiar.

i watched for a couple of hours and saw a great hand of poker. one of the things about going to see poker live is that you don't get to see the hole cards...

early on jeffrey lisandro was chip leader with about 400k and phil ivey had about 250k. 

blinds were, if i recall, $2000/$4000. i can't recall how they got to the flop but it comes 444. ivey bets $12,000 and lisandro raises him to $40,000. ivey calls.

the turn comes: a 5. lisandro bets $100,000. ivey sat and thought for a good 6 or 7 minutes - all the time barely making eye contact with lisandro. he responds by going all in. now lisandro thinks about this for a good 3 or 4 minutes before laying it down. the atmosphere was electric. i can't wait to see that hand played out on tv to find out what they both had.

back on earth, i've been playing online for real money and doing ok. i uploaded $30 two days ago and have about $75 in my account. i'll play a combination of tournaments and buy-in games. i find, online even for real cash on the line, people still take some crazy chances and i have to change my game accordingly.

i won $50 playing with friends in the house tonight - i experimented with playing a lot more aggressively and it seemed to pay off. i'm coming to the following conclusions about my game:

1. i get killed by bad kickers all the time. i've instituted an informal rule (subject to change depending on who i'm playing, position, stack size, etc.) that i avoind cards lower than 7 like the plague. whereas i used to play, say, A5 (even suited) regularly, i've started folding that kind of hand. having a good pair (or two) and losing to a better kicker sucks and this change seems to have helped a lot.

2. as a result of the above change, i'm playing fewer hands than normal. i think it's pretty normal when playing at kitchen-table level to play almost every hand in the hope of catching. i've started being very picky about what i'll open with and hand-selection is also improvgin my success i find.

3. slow playing a hand is heaven and hell. when it works, it's great but when it doesn't - more often - it sucks. i used to slow play more hands but now, more often, i'll take a pot down earlier and settle for a smaller pot.

4. i read and respect petersko's remarks but i i only play no-limit. i find that the all-in move is an essential tool of my poker game and i could not play without it.

i'm all in!

alasdair


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## middle finger

I was in a huge poker tournament last Saturday night. It was for a fundraiser, so only top 5 got prizes. There were over 300 players, sitting at about 40 tables. The Australian POker Association helped them run it, so it was very well run. I made it to the final table, with about 200 spectators surrounding the table. I came 8th... went all in with Big Slick (Ace/King) and got done. Didn't win anything, but I had heaps of fun, and did much better than any of my friends. Can't wait to do something like that again.

I lost money last night... got fucking done twice where I should have (statistically) won. One time the only thing that was saving him was an 8.... what falls on the river? a fucking 8. The other time I go all in with pocket kings after the flop (highest card was a jack). My friend calls me... what does he have? Pocket Aces obviously.


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## Stasis

alasdairm said:
			
		

> *1. i get killed by bad kickers all the time.*



"Poker is a game of top pair, top kicker." - I can't remember who said it.


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## middle finger

This was from the tournament last Saturday night. This was the finals table. I'm at the far end in the hoody.


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## Petersko

Where'd you place?


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## middle finger

8th... read my post about it...^^A couple of posts up in this thread..


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## Rusty Cage

were those plastic or clay chips?


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## middle finger

Plastic, but good ones. They were easy to bridge/shuffle with. They were lent by the Aus Poker Assoc. It was impossible to cater for 300 players with clay chips.


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## JV

damn i forgot about this thread.  

Johny Boy:  your pm box is full.


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## alasdairm

i've noticed that, when watching professional games, most hands come down to 2 or 3 players in on the action.

contrast that with online play where most hands i've played tonight involve 7 or 8 out of a table of 10. so many hands where people take a chance with crazy hands like 6/2, catching two pairs with the board and taking th epot.

so i adjust my game - raising more pre-flop to put these people out. then i'll have something half-decent like, say, J/10. then the flop will come 224 and somebody playing an A/2 (just because they have an ace) catches trips. i'm somewhat pot-committed and end up just taking a bigger hit.

i think i'm going to have to sit in on tables much longer before i start playing and see the lie of the land...

i'm playing in a casino tournament tomorrow - wish me luck 

alasdair


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## JV

^^good luck alasdair.  it sounds like youll do fine!


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## middle finger

alasdairm said:
			
		

> *i've noticed that, when watching professional games, most hands come down to 2 or 3 players in on the action.
> 
> contrast that with online play where most hands i've played tonight involve 7 or 8 out of a table of 10. so many hands where people take a chance with crazy hands like 6/2, catching two pairs with the board and taking th epot.
> 
> so i adjust my game - raising more pre-flop to put these people out. then i'll have something half-decent like, say, J/10. then the flop will come 224 and somebody playing an A/2 (just because they have an ace) catches trips. i'm somewhat pot-committed and end up just taking a bigger hit.
> 
> i think i'm going to have to sit in on tables much longer before i start playing and see the lie of the land...
> 
> i'm playing in a casino tournament tomorrow - wish me luck
> 
> alasdair *



That's why I suck at online poker. I'm good at a normal poker table, but I can't win shit online. And good luck for tomorrow.


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## Sideways_Falling

I just started playing at local bars with a friend from work,  and I'm having a lot of fun.  I don't consider myself any good and I doubt I'll be playing for money anytime soon.  But hey when it's free it can be a darn fun hobby,


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## middle finger

Just play some low stakes... maybe a $5 tournament. PLaying for money adds another dimension to the game. You will learn more.


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## alasdairm

^ i agree. playing for money is key - even low stakes.

pretend money is a good way to learn percentages, think about position, etc. but it sucks. if it's free to call, why not call. somebody will. everytime.

the free games are completely unpredicatable.

alasdair


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## Petersko

> the free games are completely unpredicatable.



Exactly.

I won't play a $5 game either. To everybody I play with, a $40 pot in a tournament is inconsequential. And of course they'd play like it was.

The sweet spot for us is a $50 total minimum stake in a night. The losers generally buy back in at least once. That means somewhere betweeen $400 and $600 up for grabs in a given night.

If there's nothing significant at stake, poker becomes straight gambling, with everybody in until the end hoping to catch the cards.

I'm playing a casino tourney Saturday. We'll see if I can replicate my past win.


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## middle finger

edit: in regards to alasdairm's comment.

Exactly. So many key parts of poker can only be experienced when playing for money (slowplaying, bluffing, makes you think harder about risk vs. reward, position play (ie. chip leader bullies the table) etc....) All these need to be learned through experience at some point.


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## Sideways_Falling

I guess I should have said "I won't be playing with my money"  because you win in these bars you go home with some money nothing grand though like 20 bucks...


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## Amazon Bee

i just played up the street at a homegame and got second of a table of six, losing to three[x] himself.   at least second got me my buy-in back.


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## JV

^^you know, you could always rob three[x], and then itll be like you won!


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## HobbyIsBowling

alasdairm said:
			
		

> * most hands i've played tonight involve 7 or 8 out of a table of 10.
> 
> so i adjust my game - raising more pre-flop to put these people out. then i'll have something half-decent like, say, J/10. then the flop will come 224 and somebody playing an A/2 (just because they have an ace) catches trips. i'm somewhat pot-committed and end up just taking a bigger hit.
> *



First of all, you should almost never be raising JT(even suited) in a NL game.  That's a checking/calling hand.  I'd rather have A 2 OS than JT suited pre-flop(they're near even, just personal preference), so you really can't blame the person you mentioned for staying in.  No offense, but If I knew my opponent was raising hands like JT pre-flop, I would be calling raises w/ ace rag everytime as well.

Second of all, if 7 or 8 people are calling every hand in a NL game pre-flop (even if there are no raises pre-flop), and also calling most pre-flop raises with borderline hands,  then the blinds are much too low/the stakes are much too low for any type of coherent strategy.  The only real strategy you could hope to employ here is to wait for the top level hands (AK, AA, KK, etc.), and then raise HEAVY, and continue betting heavy on the flop (if you didn't push all in pre flop) and hope someone didn't stay in for your orignal huge bet and get lucky.  If more than a couple people call, odds are you're going to lose the hand anyways.  That's micro-NL hold em online in a nutshell, unfortunately. 

As you can see, that's not much strategy and not much fun either.  If you plan on employing any kind of strategy that you would in a real life game, then you need to up the stakes immediately.  If you don't have the bankroll for this, then you have a couple options.

1) Continuing playing in these micro-limit type games and hope for the best (you may as well buy a lotto ticket).

2) Get some scratch together and come back with a large stack in much higher stakes where you can fully execute proper NL strategy.

3)  (My suggestion and what I did to build a decent bankroll) - Start playing the highest LIMIT hold em game that you can afford.  If you're not experienced w/ limit hold em, then I recommend you read David Sklansky's "Hold em for advanced players".  If you have a basic understanding of hold em and are intelligent enough(you are), then you will have no problem synthesizing everything in this book and putting it to use right away.  The book is considered by some to be "dry" at times, but if you are interested in making serious money playing poker, then it is well worth it.  

As much as this book will help you online(it helps loads), it will help you even moreso in live limit hold em casino games(the most common type of casino poker today).  If you read this book, and practice online for a few months, you'll be ready to go to casinos on friday and saturday nights and absolutely CLEAN UP from the drunks and hold your own with the sharks.  I encourage all of my friends to invest time in learning how to play limit hold em the right way as there is much more money to be made in limit than NL, but few listen.  I don't understand why.  I guess because NL is always on TV and everyone wants to be like the pros?  The easy money is with the rich and/or drunk guys sitting at limit tables at casinos on the weekends, but I digress. 

Once you build a big enough bankroll in limit (or thru other methods), then you can start playing true NL hold em online.  At the higher stakes you will be able to use more advanced strategy and if you are a very good player, the profits can be overflowing. 

Keys I've found to make money in NL(long term):

1) Always buy in for the maximum allowed buy in(I thank Super System for this bit of advice)
2) Whatever amount you buy in for, you should have at LEAST 10 times that amount of money remaining in your bank(preferably 15-20 times as much)

If you play on Pokerstars or UB( I think UB has it), you can play heads up matches.  There is no possibility of collusion in these matches, and usually your opponents are fairly weak.  The basic strategy you should use in NL heads up:  If you aren't betting the pot, there should be a damn good reason for it.  If you are calling a bet, there should be a gamn good reason for it.  Follow that and you should make some money.  The key(as in almost any kind of poker) is to get your opponent to frequently think "I have no fucking clue what he has".  If you can do that, you're in the driver's seat.  

Of course, you should take my ranting with a grain of salt.  I've been playing hold em (limit and NL) for about 5 years, and while I'm no professional, I'm also not too bad either.  

Another good poker resource:

http://forums.cardplayer.com/


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## alasdairm

_Originally posted by HobbyIsBowling _
*First of all, you should almost never be raising JT(even suited) in a NL game.*
lots of good advice but this doesn't take note of position which is, i find, probably the most important factor when deciding play (and is probably where most new(ish) players pay for their mistakes)

thanks for taking the time to write all that - very interesting.

alasdair


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## HobbyIsBowling

> _Originally posted by alasdairm _*
> lots of good advice but this doesn't take note of position *


Sure it does 

I would never raise JT suited from any position (unless maybe the game was extremely tight or short handed). It's just too likely someone else is limping w/ KJ, AJ, AT, KT(and would call your bet), or something like that, in which case if certain cards fall you are busted.   No 100% right or wrong answer in NL, however. 



> _Originally posted by alasdairm _*
> thanks for taking the time to write all that - very interesting.
> *



No problem, if you have any questions feel free to PM me.


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## Petersko

Yeah, I'd agree. Unless you're prepared to carry a bluff all the way to the end, J/T is in no way a raise hand. Limp in or fold if it's raised.

Mind you, I'm a pretty tight player, although I'll bluff every time I think it'll go undetected. I don't play unsuited connectors, generally, unless they're J/Q minimum.

I really enjoy the live limit tables at the nearest casino. $3/$6 blinds with full kill. 1/2 hour hold'em, 1/2 hour omaha.



> If you read this book, and practice online for a few months, you'll be ready to go to casinos on friday and saturday nights and absolutely CLEAN UP from the drunks and hold your own with the sharks.



Sadly the casino I play at will not serve more than 2 oz of alcohol per hour to anybody. In their words, "We're a casino - not a bar."


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## Petersko

Always remember when playing a $3/$6 game or lower, though - as time goes by, the clear winner emerges. The rake.

It doesn't seem like a lot when they're skimming the pot each time, but it can be over $100 an hour going to the casino. If 11 people sit down with $100 each, at the end of five hours, $500 of that is gone from the players.


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## BA

*Thank you, Stasis! *


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## HobbyIsBowling

I know what stasis means.

I still don't understand why you posted that.  Must be way over my head? *shrug*


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## Rusty Cage

I've been having a problem winning online lately, I have a good good hand, and seems like everytime I get beat. I have pocket kings, go all in, and dude who calls has pocket aces...  it's been that way for a couple weeks now, I was up to 170 and now I'm back down to under 90


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## Petersko

Stasis is a long time board member.

I suspect he's thanking stasis for the pdf from page 2.


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## BA

I need to specify what I was thanking him for? 8( Obviously _somebody_ missed out.

Yes, the .pdf


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## BA

I should probably add that I play on yahoo poker once or twice a weekend. Started out with $1000, now up to $3400+ (fake money). I'd like to play for real money through another site, but I'm just so leary about downloading shady software that I have to install in order to play.

Can anyone recommend _good_, spyware free sites?


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## HobbyIsBowling

BlueAdonis said:
			
		

> *Can anyone recommend good, spyware free sites? *



I've never seen the source code so I can't 100% guarantee there's no spyware, but I've been using Pokerstars(www.pokerstars.com) for over 4 years and I've never had a problem with them or seen any signs of spyware, ever. 

They have a good play money system also if you don't want to get a firepay/neteller account to play w/ real money (your CC/debit card is probably blocked on their site so you'll have to get around it w/ firepay/neteller).

I have some friends who play on partypoker and say that the site is full of complete chumps, but I feel the interface is much too clumsy and unprofessional-feeling for my taste. 

I've also heard good things about ultimate bet(ultimatebet.com).


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## Rusty Cage

ultimate bet = too many pro's.

I play at absolute poker, like I mentioned earlier, it's a nice site, it has it's drawbacks,  but the interface is really top notch.

If you are going to play for real money, your best bet is to play at partypoker because the deposit bonus' are easy to get, and are plentiful. You can make a living just depositing and withdrawing your cash from there.


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

Pokerstars usually matches partypoker's deposit bonuses, the standard is 20% of your deposit if you play a minimum number of hands with that money.  Usually there's a deposit bonus about once a month on pokerstars. 

You can tell which site I prefer


----------



## Petersko

I don't play online anymore. Tried it for a bit. Lost interest, partly because of what I saw, but mostly because I prefer the real life feedback and find the online one sterile.

My day to day work is in complex simulations programming. Pattern recognition is part of my bread and butter. 

I'm not gonna get into why I think the way I do. Invariably I get called a conspiracy theorist. But I believe the online sites, while not specifically geared to favour anybody, aren't completely random.

Casinos and crime have historically been heavily linked. Even now there's a major tie. One was busted locally for money laundering as recently as last year.

And yet it's funny how many people are willing to place their trust in, and actually strongly defend the honour of, a business that is located beyond prosecution and regulation.


----------



## Amazon Bee

Jean Valjean said:
			
		

> *^^you know, you could always rob three[x], and then itll be like you won!
> 
> *



actually he paid for my buy-in, and still gave me that amount in cash when i got second.


----------



## Rusty Cage

HobbyIsBowling said:
			
		

> *Pokerstars usually matches partypoker's deposit bonuses, the standard is 20% of your deposit if you play a minimum number of hands with that money.  Usually there's a deposit bonus about once a month on pokerstars.
> 
> You can tell which site I prefer  *



You prefer the site that breeds chasers.


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

Rusty Cage said:
			
		

> *You prefer the site that breeds chasers. *



LOL are you trying to imply that people don't chase on party poker?  I've played both sites extensively, and I would actually have to say people chase more on party poker, but that's just IME.

What stakes/game(NL or limit, cash games/sit n gos/tourneys etc.) did you play on pokerstars? Just curious.


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

Also, how is chasing a bad thing?  Chasing indicates a bad player which means more profit in the long run.


----------



## iLoveYouWithaKnife

*Re: The title of this thread made me laugh.*



			
				iLoveYouWithaKnife said:
			
		

> *Poke her. *


----------



## Kilgore

My buddy won over 20k on online poker.  He spent a few thousand (gf, alcohol for parties, food, etc.)  then he lost over 10k on a poker binge.


----------



## Rusty Cage

HobbyIsBowling said:
			
		

> *LOL are you trying to imply that people don't chase on party poker?  I've played both sites extensively, and I would actually have to say people chase more on party poker, but that's just IME.
> 
> What stakes/game(NL or limit, cash games/sit n gos/tourneys etc.) did you play on pokerstars? Just curious. *



I don't play on party poker. I have played both sites, I sat down at a Pokerstars table and annihlated people, I also watched too many big hands get played. 

A person should see an average of one big hand every 20, I was watching people play, myself included big hands every other hand. I'm not talking chase hands, I got dealt pocket jacks or higher 9 straight hands, as did a lot of other people, and what's funny is they were getting beat by the chaser hands like 9-10 offsuit. 

I can't even stand party pokers interface, it's klunky and ugly. But that is just me.


----------



## Rusty Cage

Also who so ever said that limit is where the money is at, was completely right, especially in online play. People are more apt to pay off your pocket aces, and the tells are a lot more prominant. 

Limit poker takes a sign that says fish and put big flashing lights around it and tacks it onto the fishies forehead. It's quite nice really...


----------



## kappadaftie

Wey Hey.

Just finished 14th in a $100k tourney last night.

Bagged about $900, gutted i didn't make the final table but there was quite alot of pros and when it got down to the last few i was just getting out-played.

Not bad since i qualified through a $5 tourney and had no re-buys


----------



## Jaronomoe

*I play poker in Biloxi MS*

If you want to advoid chasers, you'll have to play higher limit games. No limit is the best at eliminating garbage hands that hit on the river.


----------



## Stasis

Proof that online poker is rigged!


----------



## SonOF

Two of my friends who graduated from NYU last year now play online poker  for a living.  They are doing alright for the time being, but it seems like a risky career move to say the least.  I mean, yeah, they are good, but it isn't just free money.  I feel like everyone is jumping on the bandwagon, and some people have to be burned eventually.  Yet all I hear from online players is "win, win, win."

On a side note, they have won most of their money from *Bodog*.  That site seems to attract rich fish by the boatload.


----------



## BA

Just another thank you to Stasis for posting that .pdf file earlier.

I read that right before I left for poker night last saturday and cashed out with $104 more than what I started with. Good tips and strategies in there.


----------



## alasdairm

i made it to the final table of a tournament finally. a $5 buy-in with 752 participants. i went out - pushed out by the  blinds really - in 5th place (after playing for about 3.5 hours) and snagged $200.

alasdair


----------



## xxdrippy

Yeah I also play almost everyday.  I love poker.


----------



## alasdairm

where do you play?

alasdair


----------



## Stasis

Played in an online tournament tonight, $30,000 guaranteed prize pool, 1,700 players, first prize was $7,000.  I finished 11th and won $300.00.  When I was in the top 20 I was the tournament chip leader, and was on my way to  the final table, but got sucked out when I went all-in in my last hand.  I played really well up to that point, but that's poker, I'll get 'em next time.


----------



## Billy Orange

i was addicted to poker, and my parents want to move next to a frickin indian casino =/


----------



## kappadaftie

personally i think the best value online tourney has to be the $100k on a sunday (i play it through bet365 or royal vegas).  First 130 places are paid with a minimum of $130.

Make it to the last 20 and you are between $750-850.  Top prize is over $25k.

Its $50+5 to enter, but its quite easy to qualify via one of the satellite tourneys for $5 or even a sit-and-go table.

If you can generally make top 10% in most of the tourneys you play then its fairly easy to make some money, roughly about 1000 people start.

Like i said in an earlier post, once you get to the last 50 or so, the play becomes really really tight since the prizes jump up quite steeply after that.

Make it to the last 20 and you can almost guarantee there will be a few pros at your table   Certainly helps you learn a few things


----------



## Petersko

I was doing okay at a small 88-person tournament on Saturday. Got down to the last two tables.

Lots of blinds in, the guy on my left goes all-in. I had slightly more chips than him. Everybody else folded.

I had ace/jack, and knew from basic observation he didn't have a pocket pair. Turned out he had ace/7.

A 7 on the river took me down.

As James Woods of the 180+ IQ said, "At it's very best, this game is 80% luck."

It's the 20% skill you hope serves you well in the long run.


----------



## Stasis

^
Speaking of James Woods... I was in Vegas last weekend and stopped by the Rio to check out the WSOP.  On my way out of the convention center heading back to the casino I see none other than James Woods, standing there talking to two guys about the hand he got knocked out on.   Thought that was pretty cool, if I hadn't been a little stoned/tipsy I probably would've chatted him up.


----------



## BA

*Tell a favorite poker story of a good win, bad beat.*

One of my favorite stories is the night I blew out 2 people on their first hand of the night. It was a $40 buy-in, no limit texas hold em game, $2/$4 blinds. A few people came late and I was already up about $70 or so. They bought in, get their chips, and sat down.

I'm dealt

[Kh] + [8s]

I was in good position, so I called the big blind and raised it to $12. Of the 10 people playing, 1 other guy calls me, along with 2 of the new people who just sat down. At this time I'm thinking I should have bet larger because they have A/K, A/Q or a high pair in hand.

The flop comes

[Kd] + [10c] + [8h] 

One of the guys bet $8, the new people called, and it was around to me. Now I had just flopped 2 pair, which isn't a bad thing with only 3 other players. I thought about just calling to string along their bets and bet large on the turn, but I knew they'd probably fold. But I wanted them to think maybe I had trips. So I just doubled the bet to $16. The original raiser folds, the two newcomers call again.

Fourth street comes

[Kd] + [10c] + [8h] + [3s]

 Both of the 2 new guys check really quick, and I had a suspicion that maybe they were trying to slow play me and trap me into betting. That maybe one of them had pocket 8's or 10's (because they never would have called my initial bet with only a 8/10)  and just made a set. So I reluctantly checked as well.

The river

[Kd] + [10c] + [8h] + [3s] + [8c]

I wasn't even watching the cards being dealt, because I wanted to see any reaction they gave off. One of the guys sort of squinted and did 2-3 fast blinks like he was not happy with the last card, the other guy half opened his mouth and was cleaning his teeth with his tongue as if he wasn't very confident in his hand. 

They both check to me, so I stall intentionally just for effect thinking about every possible hand that could beat mine, thinking about their betting patterns, wondering if they intentionally looked pissed at the last card, etc. So I eye up both of their pots, and put them both all in.

One guy flips over Q/Q, the other actually had the nerve to grin and turns over  A/10 thinking his 2 pairs are best. So I toss out my K, and say "Well I got the king" then I toss out the 8 and said "Oh yeah, I also have the 8." This whole hand actually took about 3 minutes to play out, but it was the fastest I'd ever seen anyone come -n- go like that. One hand, both people go out.


----------



## Petersko

Slow rolls are rude, buddy.

I think I may have already said this somewhere else in this thread, but my story occurred at a $3/$6 table. Two young guys showed up, and it was their very first time at a real table. Each only brought $50.

Very first hand, one of them hit. His eyes lit up like saucers. High pocket pair. He bet, but I was the only one who stayed in, with K/10 suited. I just called.

A/J/Q came up. When the ace hit the board, he was visibly affected. I figured him 3 aces - and I flopped broadway.

He was first to act, and I knew he was gonna bet all the way to the end, but I didn't want him to bust out every penny the very first hand he played, so I just called. Crap came up on the turn and the river - I had the nuts. 

In the end he proudly puts his aces down. "3 aces" says the dealer. I put mine down, and said, "Broadway."

The guy either didn't know the term or wasn't listening - he waited for the dealer to push the stack towards him. When the dealer moved them to me, the look on his face was... well, blank at first. Then dismay, as his buddy pointed out what had happened.

Some people questioned my decision not to milk him dry, but I'm there for fun.

My bad beat happened online (of course). Aces full of kings beat by a royal flush.


----------



## BA

Petersko said:
			
		

> *Slow rolls are rude, buddy.*



Are you saying just in general, or in the situation I was in?

I ask because I've heard other people say that, too. I don't agree with that, I think playing a strong hand very slow and conservative to squeeze your opponent(s) dry is a good strategy that without a doubt takes much patience and skill. It's an essential part of a card game in the same way bluffing is. Do you think leading other players to think your hand is better than it actually is is wrong?


----------



## alasdairm

i don't think it's wrong at all. there are 1000000 ways to look at the game - one perspective is, if you want to succeed at poker (from a profit point of view) you have to master two things:

1. make losing hands win

2. make winning hands pay

a great hand is worthless if the net is $0.25. slow playing a monster hand is, in my opinion, a killer technique and when it pays off it pays off huge. the problem is the more chances you give other players to make a better hand, the more likely you'll lose.

i'm becoming seriously disillusioned with online play lately. unless you play higher stakes tables - which i can't really afford - it mostly seems to be full of people fishing for cards and making crazy bets in the hope of catching cards - which they seem to do routinely.

the other day i was playing in a $5 buy-in sit-n-go. i can't recall the exact $ amounts but i was dealt K8 suited with the big blind. about 6 people called the big blind to stay in so when it came round to me - pre flop - i raised about 3 times the big blind. all but one player folded. the flop came K8 and another card. so now ii have two pair - looking pretty good i thought. i made a pretty strong bet and the one guy left raised me. what the hell could he have? i came over the top and put him all in and he called. he had a J4 off suit - absolutely nothing against my KK88. i can not for the life of me imagine why he was betting the way he was.

the turn and river came: JJ

seriously, what are the chances?

i play at ultimatebet.com and i'm starting to get a seriously bad feeling about the way that site deals cards - it's just tough beat after tough beat after tough beat. i have not been keeping records but it seems to be in almost every single race situation, the underdog always wins. thee situaiton i described above seems to happen all the time.

alasdair


----------



## Petersko

> Slow rolls are rude, buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying just in general, or in the situation I was in?
> 
> I ask because I've heard other people say that, too. I don't agree with that, I think playing a strong hand very slow and conservative to squeeze your opponent(s) dry is a good strategy that without a doubt takes much patience and skill. It's an essential part of a card game in the same way bluffing is. Do you think leading other players to think your hand is better than it actually is is wrong?
Click to expand...


Oh, no... slow PLAYING is perfectly fine with me.

Slow rolls. Like...



> "Well I got the king" then I toss out the 8 and said "Oh yeah, I also have the 8."



Especially rude if it's the second card that brings down the hammer.


----------



## BA

Gotcha.


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

BlueAdonis said:
			
		

> *One guy flips over Q/Q, the other actually had the nerve to grin and turns over  A/10 thinking his 2 pairs are best. So I toss out my K, and say "Well I got the king" then I toss out the 8 and said "Oh yeah, I also have the 8." This whole hand actually took about 3 minutes to play out, but it was the fastest I'd ever seen anyone come -n- go like that. One hand, both people go out. *


 If I was the guy w/ the AT and I wasn't friends with you, I woulda reached over the table and knocked you out.  It's happened before to people in previously friendly games for less than that.  Trying to be like worm in rounders?  Not really that cool man.   

Not only is that rude and disrespectful as fuck, but it shows that you don't play cards for money very often.  An Amarillo Slim(I'm pretty sure) quote: "You can sheer a sheep many times, but skin him only once".  This isn't just another pleasant sounding rounders quote - it actually applies very directly to playing cards at any kind of local underground establishment (or playing with friends, for that matter).  In that situation, I woulda just said "Yeah I got lucky as hell with that k 8, I tried to buy it early and just got lucky" and let them grit their teeth and wait for their next try at busting my stupid(they think) ass.  That's how you play it, at least IMO. 

Also, the description of your play was... well, unusual.  Pre-flop you talk about how you "should have bet more" because you thought they had AQ/AK?  Why bet more, just so they can come over the top and put you all in at a 2 to 1 disadvantage(or worse)? I just don't understand some of the comments you made throughout your narrative, particularly pre flop and right after the flop.


----------



## TopRocka

I just lost 95K which I earned playing 5/10 blinds on FullTiltPoker for the past 2 hours going all in.

I am done with poker forever.

No really.


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

TopRocka said:
			
		

> *I just lost 95K which I earned playing 5/10 blinds on FullTiltPoker for the past 2 hours going all in.
> 
> I am done with poker forever.
> 
> No really. *


 You're not like, _serious_... are you?


----------



## TopRocka

95K in chips, bud.

lol


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

lol, I was thinking you just lost $95,000.  Now THAT would be a rough day!


----------



## TopRocka

I would not be posting on BL if I lost $95K via online poker.

The All Time MLB Draft may be renamed the TR memorial if that were the case.


----------



## Petersko

> Also, the description of your play was... well, unusual.



I was thinking that myself. If you start with Kh and 8s, and you raise at a table of 11 - even in reasonable position - I don't know whether you're overly aggressive, or simply bad.


----------



## BA

Woah easy bud, Hobby Bowling is gettin all worked up!

9 times out of 10 I just throw the cards over and say 'cool' if I make a good play, but there was something about the smug smirk he shot at me when he flipped the A/10 as if to say _"You should've known better"_. I guess it's hard to convey looks and mood over text on a computer monitor.

Sorry I didn't say what YOU would've said.


----------



## PGTips

AlphaNumeric said:
			
		

> *A friend is hopelessly addicted to it. He's 6 weeks away from his university finals and instead of doing coursework has spent the whole of our 6 week Easter holiday playing poker. Every day goes online around 2pm and comes offline around 2am. He knows his shit though, its a bad day it he's only up $100. He's had days of being up over $1000, winning hands worth $800 sometimes! For a student thats a serious amount of money! For anyone, thats a serious amount of money in 1 day! *


 As a follow up from this post, my friend spent so much time playing online poker, he failed his 3rd year uni exams. Not just slightly, he didn't even get half way to the "Pass" boundary mark 

Since he didn't do the coursework (playing poker) and he did so badly, they aren't going to give him even a kind of "You attended 3 years of university" certificate (not a degree, just _something_ to show for 3 years) 

Obviously you guys have got control of your playing way more than my friend does, but its still disconcerting when it happens to someone


----------



## Petersko

I play once every two weeks at most. I don't play online.

I love playing poker, but I have too many other things I need/want to do.


----------



## faithfully dangerous

i go through spurts of being obsessed with hold em.  one of my friends is actually playing in the WSOP so naturally im getting into it again.


----------



## alasdairm

_Originally posted by Petersko _
*If you start with Kh and 8s, and you raise at a table of 11 - even in reasonable position - I don't know whether you're overly aggressive, or simply bad. *
that's an interesting comment - do you have very rigid rules about what you'll play? do you always stick to them?

i have personal guidelines about what i will and will not play but, once in a while, i'll mix it up a little and play something i would never ever play. if you're sitting with a JQ and the flop comes 568, big deal. if you played that 74 once in a while then the 568 flop is obviously a monster and nobody will imagine somebody stayed in with a 74.

alasdair


----------



## Stasis

The only time to raise with something like K8 offsuit is if you're in very late position with no early position callers, or when the number of players are down to two or three, and if you get re-raised, be very careful.

K8 is what you would call a "trap hand", because you can easily get trapped.  Someone else may have a real hand like KQ or KJ, and if you happen to hit your King on the flop you may end up betting all or a lot of your stack thinking you have the best hand and end up getting outkicked.


----------



## Stasis

alasdairm said:
			
		

> *that's an interesting comment - do you have very rigid rules about what you'll play? do you always stick to them?
> *



Here's a good excerpt from poker pro Rory Monahan which may help, long but worth it:

Here is a DANGEROUS MISTAKE that I'd say about 97%
of people make when playing Texas Holdem:

THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY PLAY IN FIRST 
POSITION BEFORE THE FLOP.

This is the player immediately to the left of the 
big blind. It's the first person to act as soon as 
the cards are dealt.

This position is nicknamed "under the gun".

And with good reason, too.

Because this is THE the most DANGEROUS and COSTLY 
position at the table.

Here's why:

1. When you're under the gun, you are FIRST to act 
BEFORE the flop... and one of the first to act 
AFTER the flop. 

This means you DON'T EVEN GET A CHANCE to get a 
read on the other players before you must make 
your decisions about betting...

2. The other players can check-raise you, trap 
you, and get a READ on YOU much more easily when
you're in this position at the table...

3. You are more likely to get bluffed, pushed 
around, out drawn, and BEAT when you're in this 
position.

Let's examine WHY this table position is so 
terrible... and what proven strategies you can use
to play under the gun PROPERLY, so that you don't 
lose any more money because of it.

Here's an example...

Let's say you're under the gun at an 8-man table.

You get your cards and look down at an A,10 off-
suit. You decide to limp in, and you call the big 
blind (50).

The action goes around the table to the other 
players. The man on the button (Drew) decides to 
RAISE and make it 300 total to play. 

You're not sure if this is a position raise, or if
he really does have a solid hand.

With all the chips already in the pot... plus the
50 you already put in from your own stack, you 
decide to call with your A,10.

There's one other caller, and both the big blind 
and small blind players fold.

The flop comes out:

A,3,6 - all different suits.

You've hit top pair. Congratulations.

What sucks is that you're FIRST to act, and you 
know that Drew is probably going to raise you no 
matter what you do...

But you don't have a read on Drew or the other 
player. If Drew raises, you have to call, right? I 
mean, you hit top pair in a raised pot.

So let's say you throw out a "feeler bet", just to
see where you're at. 

Drew calls, and the other guy folds.

Hmmmm... so now you wonder if Drew is SLOW-PLAYING
a big hand or if he's just going to bluff at this.

The turn comes. It's an 8.

You check... and now Drew bets 1000.

What now?

You're "pot committed" and you still have top-pair, 
so you decide to call.

Now the river comes, you check again, and Drew goes
all-in for 3000 more.

You've already got about 1500 in the pot. You're 
getting over 2:1 on your money, and you're really 
not sure if Drew's bluffing or not. So you call...

And sure enough, Drew throws over his Big Slick
(A,K), and rakes in the pot.

Ouch.

And the REASON you lost that big pot wasn't just 
the cards... it was your POSITIONING.

If you're under the gun and you hit top pair on 
the flop, you're just ASKING for trouble...

Because it's very difficult to get an accurate 
read on your opponents when you're first to act.

I mean... let's just look at the many ways you can 
LOSE your money when playing under the gun:

- If you call the blinds, but then the pot gets 
raised before the flop and you fold. (You've lost 
your blinds.)

- If you call the blinds (and maybe a pre-flop 
raise) and the flop is no help to you. You check, 
and there's a big bet by another player and you 
are forced to fold. 

- If you bet after the flop but get raised and are
forced to fold.

- If you have a good hand but someone else has a 
MONSTER and slow-plays you. (It's much easier for 
someone to slow-play you when you're first to act.)

- And more...

Now multiply all of these LOSSES by the number of 
times you will be under the gun every single time 
you play cards.

The result is a TON of lost chips...

But I do have good news:

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.

You don't have to lose money every time you're 
first to act before the flop... 

You just have to know EXACTLY WHICH HANDS TO PLAY 
and HOW TO PLAY THEM.

Let's take a look...

In our example above, the biggest mistake made was
playing A,10 in the first place.

Since under the gun positioning is so dangerous,
you shouldn't play anything except PREMIUM HANDS.

The rule is this: TIGHTEN UP YOUR GAME. 

Only play these exact hands:

AK, AQ, KQ, and pairs.

The only other hand you may want to play is suited
connectors, but that just depends on your style...
Personally, I don't like to play them here.

OK, now let's look at HOW to play the starting 
hands. There are basically two groups:

Group 1: AA, KK, QQ, and AK.

Group 2: AQ, KQ, and all other pairs.

Got it?

Now stick with me here, because this is VERY
SIMPLE to understand and will save you a lot of 
money at the Holdem table.

When you're under the gun, you should always CALL 
THE BLINDS (LIMP-IN) when you get any hand in 
Group 2.

That means if you get any pair between 2's and 
Jacks... or AQ or KQ... you should CALL.

Period.

The goal is to hit something good on the flop. If
someone makes a reasonable raise before the flop,
you can feel comfortable calling it with one of 
these hands.

I love playing small pocket pairs, because if you 
spike your card on the flop (giving you a three of 
a kind or a "set"), your opponents will usually 
never see it coming.

Now let's talk about Group 1 hands. The monsters:

AA, KK, QQ, AK

The way you play these depends on whether the 
table you're at is LOOSE or TIGHT.

Here's the rule:

If you're at a LOOSE table (where a lot of pre-
flop raises occur), you should LIMP-IN (call) with
your monster.

If you're at a TIGHT table (where not many pre-
flop raises occur), you should RAISE the pot 
before the flop.

Here's why...

If the table is LOOSE, and you limp-in before the 
flop, the pot will most likely get RAISED and the 
action will come BACK to you.

This is good. It means more money in the pot for 
your monster hand.

But if you make a big bet, there's a good chance 
you will NOT get raised. Because you're first to 
act and everyone will know you probably have a 
good hand.

If you limp-in and the pot gets raised, you should 
probably make a RE-RAISE. Always try to get as 
much money in the pot whenever possible with your 
monster hand... 

But you DON'T want more than 1-2 callers, because 
that would increase the odds of catching a bad 
beat.

Now if the table is TIGHT, you want to make a 
RAISE before the flop. You don't want a bunch of 
players to all limp-in and see a cheap flop... 

Instead, you want to narrow down the field to 1-2
players and get some money in the middle before 
the flop. Period.

Playing first position before the flop is just 
plain tricky...

You're first to act pre-flop, in early position 
after the flop, you can't get as good of a read 
on your opponents, and you're at risk to getting 
slow-played.

So just remember, the next time you're under the 
gun, follow these three simple rules:

1. Only play premium hands: pairs, AK, AQ, or KQ.

2. With AA, KK, QQ, and AK, you should RAISE at a
tight table and LIMP-IN at a loose table.

3. With the other starting hands you should just 
LIMP-IN.

Play by these easy rules and you'll stop losing 
money and start MAKING money from this very 
dangerous position.

And you'll have a MAJOR ADVANTAGE over everyone 
else at the table who DOESN'T know this strategy.


----------



## Petersko

> If you start with Kh and 8s, and you raise at a table of 11 - even in reasonble position - I don't know whether you're overly aggressive, or simply bad.
> 
> 
> 
> that's an interesting comment - do you have very rigid rules about what you'll play? do you always stick to them?
Click to expand...


I vary my play considerably, but at a table of 11 people, K/8 offsuit is not going to stand up. If you raise in good position, most people know they'll only have to call your single raise to see the flop. You're going to get at least one caller with a better starting hand, and probably more than one.

That kind of play is a guaranteed money loser if you do it often enough. You might get lucky occasionally, but you're still playing bad poker.

I'll occasionally play a bluff hand - heck, I bluff way more than my card-playing buddies realize - but I'll generally limp in, and then bluff a hit on the flop if circumstances warrant rather than bluffing a strong starting hand straight off. Bluffing hard from the start and raising hard all the way is an excellent way to lose a lot of money in a hurry.


----------



## BA

I've been playing free no-limit hold 'em at www.pokerroom.com lately.

Start with $1000 funny money to play limit games in low, med, or high level games or play no limit. Nice layout, no software to download even if you play for real money, you just have to register. 

I'm up to $24,000 in one weekend. If only it were this way in real life.


----------



## Albert Walker

My worst beat came during a high FPP qualifier for WSOP on pokerstars last month.  The top 6 players each win a seat.  Over 800 people started and there was only like 18 left.  I was in 4th place before this hand.  My pocket cards were K7c.  No one raised preflop.  On the flop there were 2 clubs and ace of spades.  One person bet (3rd place chip holder) a decent bet and I was the only caller.  Since he didn't raise preflop I put him on an ace with a low kicker.  I do not remember the turn because it was meaningless to us both.  The river came the jack of clubs giving me a king high flush with both my pocket cards making the flush.  The other guy came out with a fairly small bet and I thought he just had a pair of aces.  Seeing how if I called all in and got a call I would be the chip leader.  I called all in and he called.  I was confident that I had this pot won.  His pocket cards were A3c giving him the nut flush and knocking me out.  I have thought about that hand many times since then and would do the same thing if I was ever in the same situation, seeing how it was definitely the best play.  The odds of him beating me like that were less then a half of a percent.  After playing in this tournament for 5+ hours I was quite upset.

He ended up winning a seat and I got a big smile when reading the pokerstars blogs seeing how he did not win any money.


----------



## BA

Are any of you guys on pokerroom.com? I know it's freeplay, but it's a fun way to practice.

Here are a couple screen caps I took this afternoon:

Before I put the screws to somebody:


----------



## fozzy

albert- the only way i whould have played the k 7 if i was in the blinds but thats just me.

one of my "worst" is we down to 5 handed at a 30 person tourny at the boats blinds are 300-600 i have to painfully tight players to my left...i'm on the button table folds around to me i raise to 1800 with 3-5 of diamonds trying to steal the blinds. i can tell the small blind has one of those hands you want to play but not at triple the blinds...he slowly calls i put him on maybe a-j, a-10 , a lower pair or 2 paint cards..... flop comes a-10-3 of diamonds he checks,  i throw 200 chips he calls. next card comes up a 9 of spades he checks i bet 200 he comes over the top for about 6 k more. to me coming from a tight player thats a sign he's made his handbut doesnt want to get  drawn out..... was i right did he hit 2 pair trips or is he trying to make a play? im talking this through only hands that beat me is kq, kj, or qj of diamonds. no was you play any other combo. kg or kj you got the nutz so you want more action only hand that you can possible have that beats me is qj but i think he'd still want more action so i call sure enough qj diamonds


----------



## fozzy

also the thing i hate the most is when people try to win the pot only showing 1 card... i dont care if im beat it takes 2 cards to win and i want to see them thats info i paid for.


----------



## bowdenta

*bow before my texas hold 'em skills*

having just won a few tournaments tonight, I thought, man can anyone beat me????

so I thought I'd give a few tips and tricks which could be added onto for winning at texas hold 'em so that there might actually be some challenge out there for online poker  

1) I like to bet about 2-3 times the big blind if I flop an outside straight draw and Im the first to act (with 2 other players or less still in the hand). this gives you 2 ways to win, having them fold, and suckering them in by catching your straight.

2) you have a 40% chance of hitting your flush if you have 4 of the same suit after the flop (aka flush draw). if you have 10-20% of your chips in the pot already, mathmetically, you should play it (only in a live game, and only if you think you have the higest flush draw)

3) just call small pairs (pocket 8s and lower) pre-flop and hope to trip up on the flop, you have a 13% chance of tripping up on the flop and if the flop also contains 2 face cards, you can trap them really easily - slow play these hands

4) slow play anything straight or better

i could give a lot of other tips, but I'll let some other poker players contribute

<- 1000th post, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


----------



## casinoplayer420

nice thread idea.  I'm a hold'em player myself, but i'm not too great, and haven't played for real money in a good while.  One of the biggest tips is not to chase flushes or straights.  Just cause you get a 2 and 3 pocket, dosen't mean to raise like hell, only to get nothing else to help your hand.  Seen it all to many times.


----------



## shahab6

Also don't become pot committed when you don't have a strong hand, this usually happens when your trying to chase flushes or straights. Only chase when there is not much money to lose.


----------



## TheCunnilingusKid

There's no rush to get involved early on .... tourists get lucky .... the maniacs don't last 3 hands .... then the toursists are rinsed ... covertly but alway's with compassion ... then the mating begins ..... I'm up for a game if anyone's got a Betfair A/C ....


----------



## BA

You are 100% guaranteed to find a big long thread on poker in here if you just search for the word *poker*.


----------



## KemicalBurn

wtf is this "search" thing you speak of BA???


----------



## bowdenta

oh really? i wasn't aware of the search function, after 3.5 years here - finally 

ok this thread is about tips on how to win, not about how fun it is in general, maybe i should fix the title, but reading the original post should make that abundantly clear

heres another little tip. a lot of people like to slow play aces, but you have to push hard enough so that they only see the turn. let them know that you have a made hand and they shouldn't chase to see the river

one more: if you have the chip lead and the blinds are still pretty small, go ahead and play your 2 7 if no one raises the blinds. you never know when the flop will come with 2 dueces or 2 sevens, or even a full boat, and then you take someones entire chip stack


----------



## bowdenta

having just won another one, I felt the importance to stress how important it is to play the player, not what cards you have when it comes down to heads up, especially when the blinds are pretty high. bluffing is of outmost importance, especially when you are in late position


----------



## bowdenta

tip 2183F)

if you go all in, show you bluffs sometimes, especially heads up. its good for setting them up later, but if you get dealt AK or high pockets the next hand, and go all in, they might just call you thinking you're shitting them


----------



## fozzy

another tip if you limp in with aces and win without showing em flip em over to make them think also


----------



## middle finger

I AM OVER ONLINE POKER!! My online career has come to an end, and a very dramatic end. To quote Tupac: "Money went as quick as it came". So true.

End of the day I get very frustrated and bored with online poker, which usually leads me to playing hands I usually wouldnt. I need to be at a table with real people. That's real poker.


----------



## bowdenta

^^^thanks for the money

you know all the profit making online players make money from people who get fed up and leave when they are down

that being said, dont get on tilt and give me another 100  

tip 98237Y: dont leave when when you are down, but make sure you know that you are a superior player than your average online player and you aren't on tilt

basically come back when you are done steaming and leave the cash games when you are up (never stay in when you have 6 times or more the buy in unless you are patient and good and play well with a big chipstack)


----------



## bowdenta

oh and dont play if its your "off week" from opiates. yall know who yall are


----------



## alasdairm

_Originally posted by fozzy _
*another tip if you limp in with aces and win without showing em flip em over to make them think also *
i don't understand this - how can you both flip them and not show them?

alasdair


----------



## fozzy

if you win the hand without having to show em...flip em over to let them see that you'll limp in with a monster. same concept of showing your bluffs


----------



## alasdairm

ah - i understand now. i never show my cards - the way i see it, it's just another piece of information to help somebody beat you.

i also think that showing bluffs is just not classy.

alasdair


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

bowdenta said:
			
		

> *you know all the profit making online players make money from people who get fed up and leave when they are down
> 
> that being said, dont get on tilt and give me another 100
> *


 I'm going to have to disagree here as I believe you have this backwards despite your qualifying statement, which should have been the main entree of your argument (not the side dish)

Profitable online(and B+M) players make the majority of their money from other player's mistakes.  If someone has lost a lot of hands (particularly on bad beats) in a row, he is (90+% of the time) much more likely to make errors during the tail end of that session than he normally would be.  From this information, we get the following:  

1) If you are getting frustrated and/or fed up with the game, leave immediately as you will likely play your poorest poker from this point on

2)If you see someone taking repeated bad beats, you definately want them to stay, as it's unlikely they will be able to play their best poker after this (like I said, MOST of the time, some players, and they are rare, actually play better after bad beats.  This is definately the exception and not the rule).

Basically,  profitable online players DO NOT want these "fed up" players to leave.  On the contrary, these are easiest players to make a profit from. 



			
				bowdenta said:
			
		

> *tip 98237Y: dont leave when when you are down.......
> 
> basically come back when you are done steaming and leave the cash games when you are up (never stay in when you have 6 times or more the buy in unless you are patient and good and play well with a big chipstack) *


 First of all, if you're not "good" then you are playing for recreation and not for profit, and therefore the following discussion does not apply to you.  


Again, I don't want to knock you, but I feel like you have your philosophies backwards, and I don't want any aspiring players here to take your advice as gospel and screw themselves out of their money with faulty strategy.  It sounds like you've been making some decent money and you've won a few tournaments recently, but I must say that you are erring in your general concepts of how poker should be played long term for a profit.  Mike Caro wrote a bit in Super System 2 about this very topic.  

To paraphrase Caro:  If you are winning a lot at a particular table, this likely means the conditions for making profits are good(at that table), and therefore you should continue playing there until these conditions change(either poor players get up and leave, you are getting tired, players have tightened up, etc.)  On the contrary, if you are losing money at a particular table, it is foolish to stay "until I am positive" - because if you are losing, it is likely the conditions are not what you require to make any kind of significant profit.  These kinds of players are the ones who "have made a profit the last 20 days in a row" - albeit a 1% profit on their buy in each time, and then on day #21 they do their normal thing - staying until they're up - except they never go up, they continue going down as they get more and more on tilt, and they kill their entire bankroll.   Even though you can say "I had a profitable month, I finished in the positive 20 of 21 days", you actually didn't finish in the profit, you lost all (or most) of your money.  That's an extreme example, but it illustrates this concept perfectly.  More often than not, these "downer days" will happen MUCH more often than 1/21 if you use the "I'm not quitting till I'm up" strategy.  


Basically the point Caro is trying to make is the fact that most players get this backwards:  They leave when they are up and won't quit when they are down.  This is poor technique when it comes to making money playing poker (or most other games for that matter).  It's like the guy gambling on football who keeps doubling up until he wins - eventually he's going to get burned out of his whole bankroll.  Happens everyday.     

On the other hand, I kinda understand players who have had a particularly good day at the tables (this is NL we're talking) cashing out and calling it a day after only a short rush.  I feel that you should do what you are comfortable with, so if you don't feel comfortable with a big stack then you should cash out and buy in elsewhere for a smaller amount.  

Having said that, if you don't feel comfortable playing with a stack much bigger than your opponents(a HUGE advantage) in a NL hold em ring game, perhaps you should reconsider your long-term profit making prospects and pick a different game (maybe limit hold em?).  Getting a dominating chip stack is what 99% of profitable NL players are shooting for when they sit down, not just for the profit, but for the advantages this big stack provides them with.  Most pros recommend you buy in for the maximum amount allowed at NL ring games for this very reason, and I believe this is sound advice.  If the max buy in is too much for you, then move down in stakes.

I really don't want to come across as attacking you because that's not my aim, I just don't want others looking to make a profit at poker to implement your advice without first hearing my objections to your proposed strategy.


----------



## bowdenta

you make a lot of valid points, its just been in my experience, when you get a big chip stack, you begin to gamble and take unnecessary risks. maybe not everyone does this, buts its kinda human nature to. I'll begin to coin flip someone pre-flop when I know I can outplay them.

Ive been up so many times only to start gambling, and go back down. at this point im on tilt, and I either lose it all or quit when when I get back to my original buy in. 

there are swings in poker. it may be dick, but leaving the second you double up, will ensure you consistently make profit. the chances of doubling up again are less than the odds you will lose some money

a lot of people have figured out that if you to an online site, get in a table with small blinds, and start with a low chip stack. wait and wait and wait until you get a good hand and push it hard. usually one of these big chip stackers will call you all in with a less than premium hand


----------



## Tanuki_23

^Youre supposed to, if youre a certain type of player.  Thats the whole point of having a chip stack, to use as a weapon.  To play loose and make people fold, or to gamble on a coinflip situation.  You can do that or play tight, but thats a different style of play.


----------



## Tanuki_23

I prefer to use my big stack as a weapon, to gamble sometimes on what I think are 50/50 situations preflop, or to call draws post-flop.
And I agree, if youre winning at a table, the conditions are right there, and their is no reason to leave.  Not to mention, its hard to leave when youre winning at a table (thats why you play), but beyond that, until someone shows that they can outplay you at a table, there is no reason to leave.


----------



## bowdenta

but if you let yourself build your chipstack from your original buy in to around 6 times the buy in, except for a few players, the whole table in going to cycle through. you wont be facing the same players. unless you see the people with a lot of money making stupid moves, i dont see how this table is going to be an advantage over the one you get into tomorrow.

I still say its best to play conservatively until you build your stack, and after you win a big hand, just log off. you always end up in the black this way. most people aren't going to be able to effectively win money in cash games by coinflipping. all in preflop has its place, and its best reserved for tournament poker to make moves towards the end when the blinds begin to increase.


----------



## alasdairm

i think a lot of people confuse the 'loose' style of play with 'tight aggressive' play.

alasdair


----------



## shahab6

I think we should have a BL poker tournament.


----------



## Tanuki_23

^^^Well I only play small table tournies, or mult table tournies.  Its too tough to switch from one specialty to the other.  Thats why most guys are strictly one or the other for the most part.  Hell if ya'll want to play who plays online.  I play on Partypoker mainly (most fish), and my name is Delt23.  I usually just play 2 or 3 $20 stt's at once, or some big tournies, but Im up for whatever, even big limit cash games, or a private table if someone just wants to lose money to me heads up.   .
   <------------------this is what you feel like when Im done with you. . .


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

Here's an interesting hand I had the other day playing a heads up match for some decent change:

One on One Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Jackal99 (1260 in chips) 
Seat 2: HobbyIsBowling (1740 in chips) 
HobbyIsBowling: posts small blind 10
Jackal99: posts big blind 20

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HobbyIsBowling [Qc Qh]
HobbyIsBowling: raises 20 to 40
Jackal99: raises 20 to 60
HobbyIsBowling: raises 1680 to 1740 and is all-in
Jackal99: calls 1200 and is all-in

*** FLOP *** [Qs Qd 6h]
HobbyIsBowling said, "gg"

*** TURN *** [Qs Qd 6h] [Ac]

*** RIVER *** [Qs Qd 6h Ac] [As]

*** SHOW DOWN ***
Jackal99: shows [2c Ah] (a full house, Aces full of Queens)
HobbyIsBowling: shows [Qc Qh] (four of a kind, Queens)
HobbyIsBowling collected 2520 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2520 | Rake 0 
Board [Qs Qd 6h Ac As]
Seat 1: Jackal99 (big blind) showed [2c Ah] and lost with a full house, Aces full of Queens
Seat 2: HobbyIsBowling (button) (small blind) showed [Qc Qh] and won (2520) with four of a kind, Queens


----------



## BA

Anytime you guys want to set up a game and a time to play with fake money (each person starts off with $1000) on pokerroom.com, let me know. We could get a table going, 5-7 of us at least.

Free play, no software to download or anything like that, all you have to do is register a name with an email account. That's all.


----------



## alasdairm

^ i'm in.

alasdair


----------



## BA

I know how hard it is to organize something on here where people are dependent to participate, but how does Sunday night look?

I can explain how to log on, and find a table/screen names later on if you life. Anyone else interested?


----------



## Tanuki_23

^Sure why not.  Free better.


----------



## shahab6

BlueAdonis said:
			
		

> *I know how hard it is to organize something on here where people are dependent to participate, but how does Sunday night look?
> 
> I can explain how to log on, and find a table/screen names later on if you life. Anyone else interested? *



Sunday is good, what time on sunday?


----------



## BA

Let's shoot for 8:00 EST sunday evening. Familiarize yourself with the free play at www.pokerroom.com . We'll play in the 'Medium' room somewhere, this way you start off with $2500 and you can only buy back in once or twice, I forget. 

We can pick an empty table. I will upload some pics now to show you what to do once you have registered on the site.


----------



## BA

Here are 2 pics. After you register, follow the arrows in pic 1.

When you click on 'play poker', follow the arrows in pic 2.

Pic #1
http://i1.bluelight.ru/g/500/18272instruction1.jpg

Pic #2
http://i1.bluelight.ru/g/500/18272instruction2.jpg

Nevermind that I have $46,000+ because when you enter a room everyone starts off with the same amount. And I just noticed that some of the tables hold 10 people, so come on over!


----------



## shahab6

BlueAdonis said:
			
		

> *Let's shoot for 8:00 EST sunday evening.  *



Alright I will be there.


----------



## BA

Im playing right now, if you want to hop in.

Medium level, table Caloocan.


----------



## BA

We have 4 confirmed


Tanuki_23
shahab6
me
alasdairm

Anyone else?

I'll be in one the empty 10 person tables at 8 o'clock in the medium level rooms. Scan through the names at each table and look for mine: *jason2510* I'll try and come on here and post my table, etc.

See you then!


----------



## mojo617

I play on PokerRoom all the time. There are two different play money servers. You may need to log in and out several times to get on the server you're looking for. 
To discourage team play, there is no 'search for a player or table' feature


----------



## BA

I've never had a problem connecting, I always get on within 2-3 seconds.

Looking forward to playing!


----------



## bowdenta

sorry guys i would play, but i have a family function going on.

the "google" uncle with an adorable 2 year old is in town. yeah, cant miss that one. nex sunday, though, i mean if we have IWS why not have a weekly poker tourney?


----------



## BA

I am in the medium level room now, at *table Dessau*. (ten person table)

Let's get it on!


----------



## BA

anybody on yet?


----------



## TopRocka

I'll be on full tilt if anyone wants some. :D


----------



## BA

See what I get for trying to set up a game of free play?


----------



## TopRocka

i havent read this thread.

where do you play, j?


----------



## BA

www.pokerroom.com

Nothing to download, just sign up with an email account. Read up a few replies I explain it. If you come on, I'll switch tables.


----------



## shahab6

BlueAdonis said:
			
		

> *I am in the medium level room now, at table Dessau. (ten person table)
> 
> Let's get it on! *


Where is that I can't find it?


----------



## BA

Its full now, let me go switch to an empty table.

Table *Ndola* now. 10 person table. Medium level.


----------



## shahab6

I'm in room medium traun


----------



## BA

Come to Ndola.


----------



## shahab6

BlueAdonis said:
			
		

> alright


----------



## BA

here, look! Come on davers!
Whats your screen names, bitches?


----------



## shahab6

shahab814


----------



## shahab6

I still can't find that room


----------



## BA

I even posted a screen shot!? Shit, its full now. 

Let me go find another empty one.


----------



## BA

Table NORDPOL now.

6th from the bottom of the 10 person tables.

Nevermind, I give up. It's already full.


----------



## shahab6

I went to that exact place you said,there is no room with that name.
Did anyone else find it?


----------



## BA

Im still there, do you want a screenshot?


----------



## shahab6

Its ok, its in medium, I went there, I don't see that name. Right now I'm in room Van nuys in medium


----------



## shahab6

Does any one see my room, Van Nuys


----------



## BA

Check out this hand I got today.

STRAIGHT FUCKIN FLUSH


----------



## alasdairm

how did you play it? what was the outcome?

i was playing a $5 sit n go about a week ago on ultimate bet and i got *two* straight flushes in the same tourney. nobody else really caught a hand which is too bad.

alasdair


----------



## bowdenta

i was about to be really impressed, then i saw it was play money. still fun though


----------



## BA

This just happened about 10 mins ago, I just called ynksjb24's bets, then put the screws to him on the river. I put him all in and he called, then congratulated me.

Play money or not, we all start on an even playing field and you see who the leader was...


----------



## BA

Here's a neat shot of some guy connecting with a royal straight flush








(but you see who's leading, right?)


----------



## BA

So last night I pulled an all-nighter on a Sunday night with work at 6 am monday morning playing a tournament. Ten guys, $20 buy in. Blinds up every half hour, $180 to 1st place, $20 back to 2nd place.

I'm usually the victim of terrible beats on the river, but for once I got lucky on the river and won the whole thing at 4:50 AM. It was a $20 buy in, and you got $200 in chips. It was down to me and some other guy, I was WAY out in front of him, I had $1600+ in chips, he had less than $400.

He raises something pre-flop, I call.  My cards are [Ks] [3s]

The flop comes [10s] [5h] [2s] giving me a King high flush draw.

The other guy moves all in, I call, he turns over [As] [7s] giving him the higher flush if another spade fell.

Turn comes [10s] [5h] [2s] [6d] 

River comes [10s] [5h] [2s] [6d] [3h]  giving me the win with a pair of 3's. 

I know this isn't a grand story of triumph, but it won me $180 a few hours ago.


----------



## huntmich

Empire poker baby, keeping me with beer money since 2004


----------



## huntmich

Currently final table at a 25$ buyin, 170 entries.  Winner gets 1350, everyone is guaranteed at this point at least 150.  I am 5th currently in chips.


----------



## HobbyIsBowling

Yeah, I just won 292 (5th place) from a 1900+ person tournament online.  Busted out on a coin flip when I stood up to a guy who kept taking my blind.  I was pretty happy w/ the way I played, particularly w/ such a large field.  It was only a $3 tourney I originally played in to screw around, never expected to make anything off it.


----------



## huntmich

Yea I made 250 from that tourney last night.  Went out with aces.


----------



## alasdairm

we should play a game again. i missed the last one because i'm so lame but i'm keen to give it another go.

BA, you seem to know what you're doing -  would you care to schedule it?

alasdair


----------



## BA

Nah, someone else's turn. Last time I had 1 person commit and actually follow through with it.


----------



## huntmich

Whoever wants to schedule it, I'm in.


----------



## iLoveYouWithaKnife

*Re: The title of this thread made me laugh.*



			
				iLoveYouWithaKnife said:
			
		

> *Poke her. *




Yup, umm hmmm.  Still does.


----------



## alasdairm

_Originally posted by BlueAdonis _
*Nah, someone else's turn. Last time I had 1 person commit and actually follow through with it.  *
quitter. 

ok, i'll have  a look at this later today or tomorrow.

alasdair


----------



## phishEcLOVEr

this sucked: 10 - 2 os  on the bb
flop 10 - 8 - 2
what does one do?
i bet about double the blind
two callers
turn - 10 
ok so i have full house...bet large maybe 5 times blind...
guy raises...which puts me all in..HAVE TO CALL RIGHT? 
fucker had 10 - 8
i was sad.


----------



## StatuS tickleS

sometimes i think i'd rather lose to a much bigger hand than mine not the same kind of hand but just barely better. that can be infuriating.


----------



## alasdairm

bump.

i've been playing a fair bit lately online, with friends and in the casino. i've been tuning my game and it's been paying off.

while, like any poker player, i adjust my game according to the circumstanecs, i've pretty much adopted the 'tight aggressive' approach and it's working well with friends and in the casino but, to a lesser extent, online.

the online game continues to interest (and infuriate) me. i uploaded $25 about a month ago and i have about $160 in my account currently. i realise that's not too impressive - works out about $5 profit per day - but i mostly play for enjoyment and if i break even, that's great. i also played a casino limit game ($3/$6) for the first time. bought in for $80 and left about an hour later with $216.

people seem to call just about anything online. playing more aggressively would seem to be the solution to that but still they seem to just call and acall to the point where they have so much invested, they'll call any all-in as, at that point i guess they feel they have nothing to lose.

i've been paying much more attention to position and i think that's also a fact in my success.

it's kind of obvious but i also find that the quality of online play seems to rise with the stakes.

so what's your solution to online poker frustration?

alasdair


----------



## Freakazoid69

im a dealer at a casino and believe me it isnt just online that people call with rubbish, although it does seem to occur more often online. Solution is to just play tight and wait till u have hands, u will get burnt with dickheads catching the river on occasion but if u r sensible u will come out ahead in the long run.

Bad beat story now, won my way through to a million dollar tourny on paradise poker, to get there i won one tourn and finished top ten in two others, all with 1500 entrants.
First hand of $million tourn, i hit pocket K's, as u can understand i was pretty happy with myself, figured was a nice way to start off. Started off with 1500 in chips, some bloke raises to 400 pre flop, i was quite content to just call, one other bloke calls. Flop comes out K88, HELLO ive hit a full book, same guy bets think it was somethin like 500, well what am i sposed to do, i call of course, other guy folds. Turn card is a 6, he goes all in, i couldnt hit the call button quick enough, thinkin how good is this, first hand of million dolller tourn and im doubling up and then some. Cards get turned over and this fucker has pocket 8's, i nearly fuckin cried, actually physically picked up my comp and was about to toss it through the window before i realised that was gonna cost me more money. Wasnt so much that i got done, i mean he had 4 8's, is fair enough, but to hit a full house on the flop k's over 8's, on the first hand of a million dollar tourn, where i had to finish top ten in three other tourns to get into, and then get done, that just fuckin shattered me, wouldve liked to at least had a chance to test myself in such a tournement. Thats gambling for u though i spose.

One little side note though, i play a lot of live tourneys as well as playing online, does anyone else find that they play a lot tighter in live games rather than online? i think its maybe the fact that on a live game, id be embarressed to look someone in the eye after winning with some of the hands i would call online, not sure, its not a conscious thing, just something ive noticed bout how i play, anyone else have any theories or do u play similar or even the opposite?


----------



## Spencer

Where does everyone play? I prefer Ultimate Bet, but I have an account on Party too. Havent really played online much in the last year or 2 though.


----------



## alasdairm

i play at ultimatebet. i find the graphics are much clearer than at some other sites which go for fancier graphics.

i just finished in 7th place (out of > 650) in a $1 tourney. i got $35 for my trouble and was, of course, pushed out by the blinds at the final table.

to freakazoid69's point about live play vs. online play, i find a bit looser and aggressive in real life as people seem less keen to call when it's real chips they have to put across the line instead of a mouse click. i've bluffed some hand in real life in the casino which some dumbass would surely call online just to fish. 

alasdair


----------



## BA

If there's one thing I think has helped my game more than anything recently, that is playing the POSITION more than the cards. I've made it almost habit to always raise on the button if nobody raises in front of me, or if 1 person does I will re-raise. I don't do this everytime as to give off a pattern, but I do it alot.

When this happens, after the flop if the other player checks I will fire again, usually the size of the pot or 1.5 times the size. Anything less gives them good enough reason to call me. If after the flop the other person bets out large, I would usually fold if I didn't pair anything. Sure it's a waste, but for every 1 hand I'm forced to fold I bring in 4 or 5 using the above method.

I've also been "mastering" the re-raise in real life, too. This doesn't quite have the same pizazz when playing online. I think a sizeable re-raise gives you a good look at how your opponent reacts; the look on his face, if he exhales in frustration, does he check his cards and double think his initial raise, etc. And even if he goes crazy and goes all-in, sometimes the "read" you get from an occasional re-raise will be worth it in the long run when you see similar facial expressions.


----------



## alasdairm

i played at harvey's casino last tuesday in their morning 'shoot-out'. $40 buy-in and two table maximum (although, with alternates, often as many as 30 people play).

i stuck to some fundamental rules i've established for myself and came 2nd - took home $250. basically, being pretty picky about opening hands and playing tight-aggressive. that said, i bluffed a couple of pots when i had to. the buy-in gets everybody only $1000 in chips which is not much after the blinds have gone up twice. i arrived at the final table with the short stack which i kind of enjoy - it makes me play more aggressively.

i love playing in the casino - real felt, real nice cards, real chips, somebody else dealing - it's a lot of fun.



alasdair


----------



## paradoxcycle

alasdairm said:
			
		

> i love playing in the casino - real felt, real nice cards, real chips, somebody else dealing - it's a lot of fun.



Definitely agree but if you ever play in a tournament at a casino, take a good look at the chips- they are typically filthy from being handled over and over again. The regular tables are usually fine though.


----------



## randycaver

^ Eww!! That would drive me crazy! lol, GERMS


----------



## alasdairm

i played in the harvey's morning tournament again yesterday and finally won it. first place paid me $360.

the game pays three places and, when it got down to four, the talk of chopping began. i felt i was playing well and didn't want to chop which annoyed the others - especially the guy who went out in 4th. anyway, i was vindicated, i feel, by taking it.

i didn't really do anything very different. i had to adjust my game slightly - there was a lot of checking round going on so i loosened up a little and made a few decent raises to steal limpers early on. later, i played pretty standard 'tight-aggressive' until there were three of us then i went pretty nuts with some loose raises to steal the blinds and essentially blind the other two out.



alasdair


----------



## randycaver

congrats, ali


----------



## JV

awesome.  i still need to play in a tournament. i need to play against people that i dont know.  

man, that sounds like fun.


----------



## caffeine_voices

i signed up on http://www.bodog.net, just because i saw an ad for the lingerie bowl 2006, and wanted to know what insane people sponsored this great idea...

then i found out it was a free/no real cash poker site...

good for practice, i'm thinking about signing up on absolute poker though


----------



## 5-HT2

Glad to see the reappearance of the poker thread.  I got quite good at poker over 2004-2005, easily winning back all the money I put in, but haven't played much since I moved back to the East Coast.  Perhaps I should visit Atlantic City in the near future…

For some reason, online poker just doesn't do it for me.  I forget who it is originally attributed to, but I agree with the saying, "Poker is a game about people, played with cards."  

I've gotta agree with what BA said about playing position and re-raising.  Usually, I play pretty tight, but if I'm near the end of the rotation, and the people in front of me haven't been betting aggressively pre-flop, I loosen up if I have a hand I normally wouldn't play because there's always a chance I can hit something on the flop.  My friends claim that I'm extremely hard to read (though I don't know how this could be), and I think part of that comes from my ability to loosen my play when I don't stand to lose too much from it.


----------



## Buck Cherry

Wow my old screen name and my old thread... It's nice to see I still have something going on.


----------



## Stasis

caffeine_voices said:
			
		

> i signed up on http://www.bodog.net, just because i saw an ad for the lingerie bowl 2006, and wanted to know what insane people sponsored this great idea...
> 
> then i found out it was a free/no real cash poker site...
> 
> good for practice, i'm thinking about signing up on absolute poker though



Change the .net to .com and you'll find the real money site.  They can't advertise the .com/real money sites on TV because of legalities but they can advertise the .net/play money sites by adding the disclaimer "This is not a gambling website". They just hope you'll figure out to put .com instead of .net when visiting the site.


----------



## alasdairm

i think i'm getting the hang of this now. i played the horizon afternoon tournament today - only $20 buy in and 2 table maximum. only 18 people played and won it to take $148.

my online play is a succession of bad beats and suck outs while my real life play is meeting with some success.

alasdair


----------



## huntmich

Sat down at a cash game in Detroit on Thursday.  Bought in with 100$, stood up with 650.  But I need to find some tournament games, thats where I really shine.

And as far as online goes, I gave that up.  I'm not sure if its just that I play more poorly when other people can't see me, but I had a hard time winning online.


----------



## basix

Anyone play on pokerstars?  PM if you up for a game, lower limits only though.


----------



## caffeine_voices

so i went with...absolute... it's cool... not doing too bad if i do say so myself


----------



## Buck Cherry

alasdairm said:
			
		

> i think i'm getting the hang of this now. i played the horizon afternoon tournament today - only $20 buy in and 2 table maximum. only 18 people played and won it to take $148.
> 
> my online play is a succession of bad beats and suck outs while my real life play is meeting with some success.
> 
> alasdair




You're going to see way more sucks outs and bad beats online, primarily because you see 3-4x the amount of hands online. Most people just chop it up to the online casino's trumping up of action... I also watch a lot of bad plays online, people who don't bet as high as they should on the turn, or the river, or even the flop... The exhibit weakness and then they get outdrew. Don't get greedy and try and slowplay your hand.... pick up the pot when the odds are in your favor. I have found that in low stakes tourneys, it is wise to splash around in the early blinds, tighten up through the middle, and then play loose aggressive when there are 7 or Less. Usually, you'll pick up a shit load early on, and win maybe a few mid-sized pots mid-ways through, and not have to worry about the blinds eating you alive, So that when you hit the final table, you have chips in front of you, and you are in a pretty good position to take chips from weak tight players like I would assume you tend to play. 

Now I can hear the response  But I'm winning real cash at real games. Which is good, it means one of two things, A) You're getting really lucky, or B) you are pretty good at reading people and can usually tell when to fold and when to call your friends bluffs...

I say be a bit more aggressive, and bluff from time to time, you'll get more callers when you actually have a hand.


----------



## Buck Cherry

caffeine_voices said:
			
		

> so i went with...absolute... it's cool... not doing too bad if i do say so myself




I play there too man, I got a 10 dollar referall bonsu and am playing for real cash again.. I'm up to 90 bucks... if you're ever in the $1-2 buy in tourneys... Look for Wildhorse22..


----------



## Buck Cherry

Anyone out there on Absolute Poker mind posting their stats here?


----------



## Infinite Jest

I just play on the fun tables (atm). I'm InfiniteJest. I play limit holdem, I'm up to $165,000. I'm on the 100/200 tables, will move up when I have $200K. If anyone is just playing for fun, look me up.


----------



## Buck Cherry

Thats it there needs to be a meeting of minds somewhere and we all need to get togather on one site and hold a play money tourney and see who wins.... that would be so much fun.

Who's with me?


----------



## Infinite Jest

Definitely. Best times for me are in the evening/night, US time (or at the weekend).


----------



## alasdairm

i'm definitely up for that - i have accounts at pokerstars and ultimatebet.

alasdair


----------



## Buck Cherry

Gee we need to get a poll up on the different poker softwares people use, so we can all get on one and play.

So far all I know of are

Titan Poker
Paradise Poker
Party Poker
Poker Stars
ultimate Bet
absolute poker

If anyone else knows of anymore feel free to add them... But I do request this be turned into a poll just so maybe we could get a good online game going once a month or something dumb... I mean just imagine the bragging rights...


----------



## Abraxus

Buck Cherry said:
			
		

> Gee we need to get a poll up on the different poker softwares people use, so we can all get on one and play.
> 
> So far all I know of are
> 
> Titan Poker
> Paradise Poker
> Party Poker
> Poker Stars
> ultimate Bet
> absolute poker
> 
> If anyone else knows of anymore feel free to add them... But I do request this be turned into a poll just so maybe we could get a good online game going once a month or something dumb... I mean just imagine the bragging rights...



There are some sites that will set up private tourneys for you.  I can't think of which sites do this, I'll check and then post back here.   The only downside is that the site still takes a fee, but it's a convenienct way to have a game with a group of people in different geographical locations.  In any event, if you ask support at most sites, they should be willing to set you up.


----------



## Buck Cherry

Abraxus said:
			
		

> There are some sites that will set up private tourneys for you.  I can't think of which sites do this, I'll check and then post back here.   The only downside is that the site still takes a fee, but it's a convenienct way to have a game with a group of people in different geographical locations.  In any event, if you ask support at most sites, they should be willing to set you up.



Pimpin.


----------



## orbital_forest

Buck Cherry said:
			
		

> Pimpin.




if this man is not the judge of pimposity,i dont know what reality is


----------



## alasdairm

related reading: Online Poker is now a felony in WA



alasdair


----------



## Buck Cherry

^ they have yet to prove to me that poker is indeed a true gamble. Simple mathematics, and logical thinking should make most hands no gamble at all. 


Otherwise how in the fuck do the same people always end up in the top 10 of nearly every tournament worth mentioning?


----------



## alasdairm

i know the wsop main event is long over but i'm catching up on the reruns on espn just now.

the one thing that struck me - and perhaps it's inevitable with the huge field these days - is how many players have shitty attitudes these days. the calm professionalism of players like brunson, cunningham, etc. has been replaced withbrash shit-talking by guys like molina.

you might argue that molina's antics are part of a carefully designedoker strategy to get under the skin of opponents and help him win. perhaps. that doesn't mean he's not a total dick. his behaviour was just ridiculous.

i had a problem with the eventual winner - jamie gold - too. on many occasions he was talking about his hand while there was still action behind him in the hand. that's just not done and i wish somebody had a quiet word with him.

oh well.

alasdair


----------



## Rusty Cage

^ yeah, talking about your hand while there is still action should be an illegal move. It may give all players the same knoweledge... but it shouldn't be knowledge to anyone. UNTIL after that hand.

And shit talking is annoying sometimes, but it is definately fun to watch too. 

My more favorite players are hoyt corkins, and Gus Hanson. I like the maniacs... They drive tables crazy.


----------



## stinkfoot

Jamie Gold was being the biggest dick ever.

he kept going over to Johny Chan, who was apparently his coach, and saying "i trapped him johny".

blah blah blah.

he's a poor winner with a big mouth.

he was getting super lucky, imo.


----------



## alasdairm

i agree. there's only one thing i hate more in poker than a sore loser and that's a bad winner. on gold's cards, you're right. obviously, i'm only watching highlights but he really seemed to be getting great cards. combine that with a big stack and anybody can win an no-limit.

how many people are going to be playing in the main event next year? 15,000? at that point, it really is a lottery.

alasdair


----------



## Rusty Cage

^ I think the WSOP is due for a change, It should be broken down, and points need to be given for other pre-WSOP poker tourneys, then allow only so many into the actual No-limit WSOP game. Not only that but you should have to have so many points in one other form of poker to be accepted in as well... or something. Because as much of a skill game this is, what little luck is involved can be a TREMENDOUS edge when you don't ever have to play the player.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Rusty Cage said:
			
		

> ^ yeah, talking about your hand while there is still action should be an illegal move. It may give all players the same knoweledge... but it shouldn't be knowledge to anyone. UNTIL after that hand.



It is an illegal move.  Why the WSOP did not say anything to him surprised me.





			
				Alasdairm said:
			
		

> i agree. there's only one thing i hate more in poker than a sore loser and that's a bad winner. on gold's cards, you're right. obviously, i'm only watching highlights but he really seemed to be getting great cards. combine that with a big stack and anybody can win an no-limit.
> 
> how many people are going to be playing in the main event next year? 15,000? at that point, it really is a lottery.



Gold is not a very good poker player (take that into prespective though, I am sure he is much better than me).  

What really caught me off guard was on one of the showings it seemed as if Gold was pleading with the table for someone to tell him hes a good player.  He had just won a pot that he was way behind in and it left the table shaking their heads.  He then commented on how he had been hitting a lot of monster flops but then asked the table I am a good player right?  I think Johny Chan could have picked a much better understudy, I guess he saw something in the guy.

With the amazing amount of people competeing in the WSOP no matter how good you are you will have to overcome a huge amount of coinflip situations to win the whole event.  Changing the format as Rusty mentioned will never happen just becasue of the vast amounts of profit that the WSOP is making.  I think the public also likes the thought that anyone has a chance to win the whole thing ( look at Chris Moneymaker, the guy wasn't ever in a consistent home game!).

If you are looking for good action among a lot of pros you have to watch smaller tournaments.  The WSOP tour usually attracts a good amount of pros.  What I really would like to see is the WSOP live, so you can watch the VPIP%s, raises compared to pot size and such.  If you guys ever get on a private game shoot me a PM I will be more than happy to join.


----------



## Rusty Cage

I still think we should all decide on a place and get togather and play some cheap or free poker.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

I am down.  I have accounts on party poker and paradise as of right now but I do not care where it is.  It will probalby give me an excuse to pick up another deposit bonus.  If we can not get enough people that actually want to put money on it lets do play money.  If someone starts moving all in every hand though I will be pissed.


----------



## Rusty Cage

I'm at absolute, I play there because they gave 10 free bucks, and I turned it into 100... For some damned reason I've not been able to break past that 100 though.... *shrug*


----------



## middle finger

Im hosting a big game at my house in half an hour... wish me luck.


----------



## alasdairm

^ good luck. i mean, how did it go? 

i'm almost at the end of catching up with the 2006 wsop main event, now down to 3 players.

the entire complexion of the event has really changed and i think it's changed for the worse. jamie gold's attitude just gets shittier and he has to learn to stop talking while he still has action behind him - i can't believe the dealers or tournament organisers haven't had a word.

the spat between prahlad friedman and jeff lisandro was just ridiculous. the reply showed that lisandro did, indeed, ante and it's just beyond me why friedman would not let it go.

don't get me wrong, talk is cheap in poker and the only thing that really talks is chips - jamie gold had the chip lead and held onto it for 3 days before winnign outright which is impressive by anybody's reckoning. he was certainly able to make winngin hands pay out and that's also huge in poker. but, without the cards, i saw him outplayed time and time again by the likes of alan cunningham only to catch cards and then brag. his whole "_i trapped him..._" schtick was tiresome and juvenile.

i'm on a rant now. i wish to hell players would learn to stay at the table and get on with the game - i know you're playign for millions but all this running to the crowd for hugs and high fives is just lame...

alasdair


----------



## JuicyJay

I wish I could play in the WSOP. One, I'm not 21 and two, it's expensive! No chances of winning a seat online anymore though. Best I've placed in a big tournament was 7th out of 11500 players. I felt pretty accomplished. It was a free tournament but I still won money out of it. It's not that hard though, dumb players equals the numbers dropping quickly. 

What was the cutoff for cashing out this year? Even if I cashed out and only made $1, I would still feel very proud of myself. That is a true accomplishment to outplay and outluck 8000 other players.


----------



## alasdairm

you could always play in a circuit event. last spring, there was a wsop circuit event in south lake tahoe and the entry for the qualifiers was about $240. myself and 7 friends played a kitchen-table qualifier for $30 each and the winner was dispatched to the lake tahoe event.

there were over 200 people, i think, in the qualifier and he lasted until there were less than 100 so it was fun while it lasted.

if i ever win the lottery, i know exactly where the first $10k is going 

alasdair


----------



## middle finger

alasdairm said:
			
		

> ^ good luck. i mean, how did it go?
> 
> alasdair


had 9 of my good mates over. cash-in game. the pot had about $500 in it. at the end of the night I finished +$15, not great. but Ive been on a good winning streak lately. ive won a few hundred in the last couple of weeks. we play 2 or so times a week.


----------



## alasdairm

middle finger said:
			
		

> at the end of the night I finished +$15


on our kitchen table games, we always play tournament style - avoids the "_i played for 3 hours and made $0.80_" problem 

alasdair


----------



## middle finger

Yeah I hear you. Usually I like to play tournys. But with the boys, it's also a good time to hang out and catch up after work, so it's hard sending someone home after a few hands once they are out. This way there is also a lot more money in the pot from re-buys and add-ons, and there is usually 2 or 3 people that win $100 or so. And as the game goes on, some players are on tilt, and bigger money is being thrown around, it gets interesting.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

*Poker story, and weird occurance question.*

This thread has not been used in a while so I will write up a little report on my latest game.

Every wednesday on campus there is a ring game.  We play 40 dollar max buy in with .25 and .50 blinds.  Sometimes a 100 dollar game will start up also.  It usually attracts around 20 people and we have 2 full rings playing.  This week has been terrible for me online, I have blown off 400 big blinds in the last 2 days.  

I came into the game hoping that I can turn my luck around in a live game.  I play a couple orbits and nothing large has happened.  I folded top pair when villain had a set and was pretty damn proud of myself.  Only lost 15 bucks on the hand.  I took down a couple more pots and had built up a decent roll.  

Then I get dealt my favorite hand....what do I do?  

I raise preflop and get a caller.  Flop comes 233 with 2 to the flush hearts.  Naturally I bet at the pot.  Villain comes over the top with a big raise.  I decide to push.  Did I mention my favorite hand is aces?

So anyway villain calls.  He turns over 44 and he has the heart.  So he has plenty of outs: the up and down draw, backdoor flush draw, and he can hit a boat.  The flop is a three.  Boom, I eliminate all but 2 of his outs.  I am stoked and looking forward to raking in those beautiful clay chips.  But of course I get too excited and the 4 hits on the river.  He has a boat full of 4s, mine is full of 3s.  There goes another stack.

I decide to rebuy and have the terrible feeling that I am on tilt and will probably donk off another stack.  Cards are dealt and holy shit.....aces again!  To make a long story short I double up against queens.  

I get aces another time in this game and take a decent pot.

From here on out I play smart aggressive poker, I win a couple pots with complete air against weak tight players.  I take down multi pots that have been raised with strong reraises.

From being down 70 at one point I leave the building with over 200 bucks, not too bad.

I hope this read was not too boring, but after a game like this there is no way I am going to sleep.

Oh I got one other question for you guys.  Later on in the night a very intersting situation occured.  I want to hear your guys takes on it.

OK, I am looking for some help on this. 

Luckily I was not involved in the hand. I do not really know how the betting went but basically player one flopped the nut flush, player 1 bets and player 2 calls. The turn comes a blank and one of the players moves all in. River is the ace of spades giving player 2 a full boat. So he wins the pot right? On further examination an ace of spades appeared on the flop as well. Counting the cards reveals that there was an extra card (the ace of spades) with the same back. What happens to the pot? Who takes it? Player 1 is less likely to hit his flush with 15 spades in the deck but just as well the river ace made the boat so player 2 is less likely to suck out. What happens? 



Luckily we had only been playing this deck when we combined with the other table late at nite, so we had not been playing with it all nite.  

We wound up letting the player with the flush take most of the chips but he let player 2 keep some of it.  Not sure exactly what the amounts for but everyone agreed on it.  Does anyone know the exact ruling on this?  If not what would you guys have done.


----------



## Infinite Jest

^
Re-deal, return initial bets and blinds to everyone who was in the hand at any point. (I am not a poker expert by any means, but I think it's the only possible answer).


----------



## alasdairm

yep. the hand is dead.

i was playing a kitchen table tourney the other night. i was short stacked and the small blind. everybody folded round to me and i have:









i move all in to try to take the blinds and get called by the big blind who has:









the flop comes:












he makes trips and i figure i'm out. then the turn:















i laughed at the false hope. then the river:


















i nearly shat my pants - eights full of sevens beats sevens full of eights!

i went out the next hand when the guy to my right raised with 7 & 8 spades. i had AQ off. i moved over the top all-in. he called and flopped a flush 

two hands later, two others go all-in with pocket 6s against AQ off. the flop was AAA!

now that i'm back in tahoe, i played a casino tourney the other night at and cashed in third place. the same night as the hand above, we played two more kitchen table tourneys and i got 2nd in both. so i feel like i'm batting .750 this poker season so far.

on sunday mornings here, a local casino has a $500-pot guaranteed freeroll. nothing to lose!

alasdair


----------



## ihateecstacy

i was playing in a local tournament last night and experienced a bad beat.

i had jack/8 off suit. would have layed it down had i not been in the small blinds. plus, almost everyone ahead of me folded.

flop came. jack/8/ace.

i raise the big blinds. try and milk it a bit and not scare him off. i get re-raised. i thought that maybe he had a bigger two pair with ace and all, but i figured he was just playing the ace. so i pushed all in. he calls with ace/king.

turn comes up ace. 

lost most of my stack. out a few hands later. i came in 12th. not bad but i was pissed because i just missed the final table.


but yeah. when poker first started getting big. i hated it. i could not understand why they were showing poker on my beloved espn. then i got talked into playing at a friend's house and since then i've become addicted to it.

so why doesn't everyone say which online site they play on and give handles so i can search for you and take all your money. as for me...

party poker: dopala
full tilt: dplaukonis


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

party poker is defunct for us americans, i withdrew my roll and have since moved to absolute.  i am thinking about moving to poker stars as well after clearing my 100% deposit bonus.  some of you guys should check out absolute, the ring games are tight but most everyone is very very weak.  Also maximum buy in is 200 BB so playing for stacks can be pretty profitable.

How is full tilt?  What is the player base like?  How do the ring games play?  I heard the interface is pretty unique.  Do they offer a deposit bonus?  I might have to go fish hunting over there.


----------



## SardonicNihilist

It seems poker has replaced snowboarding as the recreational activity that has spawned the most annoyingly esoteric slang.  

Wait for the pierced river, flop the rabbit hole and go for pure guava.


----------



## Mehm

hola,

who else is pissed about the poker ban?  just one more thing that we can't do in this "free society".

but fuck stupid laws, we should all get a game going!  I'm on absolute right now and its preatty good.  Haven't been playing for a while, but a nice living room game with my hommies is going down tonight, which should be fun.

BTW, thizz: I think everyone should have taken their bets back and had the hand re-dealt.

Alasdairm: lucky!!!

peace like a puzzle ya'll


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Hey mehm whats your handle on absolute?  I am there as well.  I am not too sure about that cardroom, almost too many rocks for me.

By the way I am thizzSC on there.  You can find me at the .25 .50 limits of NL hold em.


----------



## Infinite Jest

I'm Infinite Jest on Absolute. I play exclusively low-limit tournaments. I get my ass kicked in the ring games. I can't figure out why, but I'm no good at NL ring games, but I'm one of the better players at the table at low-limit tourneys.

I'm SxyFemmeFatale (don't ask ) on Full Tilt. Seem to be doing OK there. I've only been playing free rolls (didn't deposit anything) and I've finished ITM in three tournaments there.


----------



## alasdairm

ihateecstacy said:
			
		

> i was playing in a local tournament last night and experienced a bad beat.


i wouldn't define that as a bad beat  - he had top pair and a great kicker.

if he moved with 9/4 off suit and caught cards, that would be a bad beat. tough beat? sure. bad beat? i don't think so.



alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

one of the local casinos here has a freeroll on sunday morning. for $0 i got $100 in chips. the people who bought in (for $35) got $1200 in chips. big disadvantage. about 20 people showed up of whom about 8 paid and 12 played free.

i cashed in second place and got $150 for my trouble. i definitely needed a bit of luck to get to around $400 chips but then i had enough to start playing a bit more poker.

i've recently been approaching tournament play - especially as the number of players dwindles - with a "_play to win_" strategy rather than a "_play to not lose_" strategy and i think it makes a huge difference to my approach.

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

alasdairm said:
			
		

> i've recently been approaching tournament play - especially as the number of players dwindles - with a "_play to win_" strategy rather than a "_play to not lose_" strategy and i think it makes a huge difference to my approach.
> 
> alasdair



Would you like to elaborate on the key differences in your tactics?

Good result for the tourney, btw. I'm still feeling proud of myself when I make the final table in an online freeroll donk-fest


----------



## TBritton

Okay, so when/where is the official Bluelight poker open?  Someone make it happen, and Foxxy and I will be there!


----------



## Infinite Jest

OK, I have to post about this.

Playing a nine-person SnG on Absolute. $2 buy-in (still as high as I go - I want to keep my $50 bankroll going as long as possible). 

Down to 4 handed, all fairly evenly stacked at about 3000, weak tight table so lots of hands are being folded and the blinds have gone up to 300/600. So basically you have to put 1/5th of your stack into the pot every time you're in the big blind, which is once every 4 hands. So it's kinda crazy. No real betting, just people going all-in and the blinds folding most of the time. 

I'm picking up a lot of blinds going all-in. I've also already knocked out a short stack who went all-in on my blinds. I called with JQ, he had AQ and hit his A on the flop, but I hit a runner-runner straight and knocked him out.

Few hands later, the same thing happened. I'm all in, get called by someone who has me covered, and hit a runner-runner straight. He's low-stacked, I've got half the chips. Few hands later, he's out.

And then it happens again: I'm in with junk and hit a runner-runner straight to knock out someone with 2 pair. 

What are the freaking odds on that? :D

(I then won the tourney by going all-in with 10-5 and hitting a full house....but that was a legitimate bet, because I only had to put 500 chips in to call the other guy's all-in).


----------



## alasdairm

^ a rough estimate of the odds of hitting 3 runner-runner straights in a row is about 350000:1 (hard to calculate without knowing the exact cards dealt).

"_$2 buy-in (still as high as I go - I want to keep my $50 bankroll going as long as possible). _"

is a good example of playing-to-not-lose thinking. if you were playing to win, you'd play a couple of $20 and a $10 

from a tactical point of view, it's natural at this level to tighten up the closer to the end you get - you're trying not to lose. i told myself that it had cost me $0 to buy in so i had - literally - nothing to lose. i took a few chances and it paid off.

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

alasdairm said:
			
		

> "_$2 buy-in (still as high as I go - I want to keep my $50 bankroll going as long as possible). _"
> 
> is a good example of playing-to-not-lose thinking. if you were playing to win, you'd play a couple of $20 and a $10



Not sure I agree with you there. I'm choosing to play with a small bankroll, so prudent bankroll management dictates that I don't risk most of it on one or two games. That's pretty much the standard advice I've picked up everywhere - don't put down more than 10% of your roll on one game (Besides which, I'd get killed at that level, right now. Need to work on my game first). 

I take your point at the tactical level. This is something I need to work on (I'm real good at playing with my back against the wall, as it was in this game - jam all the chips in with a half-decent hand, and hope. But I need to learn to start doing that a bit earlier in the game...).


----------



## ihateecstacy

> Originally Posted by *alasdairm*
> i wouldn't define that as a bad beat - he had top pair and a great kicker.




yeah, i guess it wasn't so bad. it was just tough to swallow because of how well i was playing all night.


----------



## alasdairm

^ like i said, tough beat.

maybe we should start some ''rules of poker'

1. most bad beat stories are not bad beats but just crap play
2. nobody wants to hear them anyway



alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

alasdairm said:
			
		

> "$2 buy-in (still as high as I go - I want to keep my $50 bankroll going as long as possible). "
> 
> is a good example of playing-to-not-lose thinking. if you were playing to win, you'd play a couple of $20 and a $10





I am sorry but I have to say that is terrible advice.  It is very possible to play to win while staying within your bankrolls limitations.  I am not exactly sure what the rule of thumb is for SNGs, but I think it is you want to have a bankroll of 15-20 buyins.  The swings in sit-n-gos can be downright brutal and after playing a while it is not uncommon to lose 4 tournaments in a row on the bubble.  Bankroll management is huge for any player so that you will never be out of funds to play poker.  If you are playing a classic TAg style of play it is not uncommon to drop a couple buy ins every now and then.  You want to make sure your bankroll can afford this.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Oh by the way I have deposited on stars and have found heaven.  If you want to play in a donkfest deposit on stars.  I am probably going to withdraw my funds on absolute except for a small amount ( im saving it for a a game with all you BLers out there) and transfer to poker stars.  If anyone is on poker stars drop me a message.  My screen name is thizzSC.  A couple pink superman hitters are my icon.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Just registered on Stars: InfinityNZ. Only playing freerolls at the moment.


----------



## alasdairm

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> I am sorry but I have to say that is terrible advice.


in retrospect, i didn't explain myself very well. to me, a statement like "_I want to keep my $50 bankroll going as long as possible_" suggests the aim is to play as many (small buy-in) games as possible with the $50 before it runs out. to me, that sounds like playing to not lose.

if it were worded more like "_I want to trun my $50 bankroll into a $250 bankroll_" (by whatever means), that sounds like playing to win.

that said, we're discussing a mindset here which is clearly open to interpretation.

alasdair


----------



## Rusty Cage

^ I wanna play a game of poker with you. It'd be a blast. But it's obvious you calculate numbers on the fly much better than I do.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Yeah, that explanation makes more sense - cheers 

Hmmm.

*adjusts mindset*.


----------



## Tuluvas4

Liqour in the front poker in the back.

Get it 


LICK HER in the front POKE HER in the back?

hahahah.....meh.


----------



## Mehm

so when and where for the bl poker tourny?  Do ya'll know if private rooms can be set up at absolute?

I'm free at night (mountain time zone) and on the weekends


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

absolute does not have private tournaments as far as I know.  Poker Stars does though.  I will research up on it and shoot some e-mails to customer service and figure out which site would be best.  If people that are interested could PM where they play that would be helpful.  I will try to use a site so the least amount of people will have to download a new program.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

correction.


absolute does have private tournaments.

I will try to set up this tourney.  PM me if interested.


----------



## huntmich

goddamnit I have been waiting for the bluelight poker game to materialize for months!  I am in, I would be willing to play a tournie for as high as, say 20$


----------



## Mehm

sorry I missed the question earlier, but I'm MEHM on absolute.  

I'd play up to $20 if that's what everyone else wants to do, but would rather start on something a bit smaller, say 5 or 10.

btw, I assume the game is NL hold em?


----------



## Infinite Jest

I would also prefer smaller stakes. Maybe $2 or $5. Would rather play a couple of smaller games than one big one. 

NL HE?

Nah, I thought we were playing Razz? 

Or how about HORSE, for the ultimate 'who can adapt their game the fastest?' challenge?


----------



## Don Luigi

My father cannot work computers but has enough grasp of the mouse to click. In the past year he has lost over $12000 US.He tells my mother that a dollar is worth 30 pence...She believes him. He can easily turn 50 dollars into 500 withing a nights play but then he looses it all as he cannot work the computer and dosen't know how to go to the cashier. He needs me to do everything for him so If im asleep he's fucked.

This has worked to my advantage as I now know his Visa details off by heart and have used it to buy alot of salvia and cannabis seeds online...He is none the wiser he does not look at the items on his bill he just pays and shuts up.


----------



## alasdairm

huntmich said:
			
		

> goddamnit I have been waiting for the bluelight poker game to materialize for months!  I am in, I would be willing to play a tournie for as high as, say 20$


i would love to play but with so many of us split across so many different sites, it's going to be hard. i have two accounts already and i really don't want to have to create a third and make a deposit.

let's do this: drop me a pm with the name of your preferred site (i assume, the site(s) with which you already have an account) and i'll see if we can make this work.

alasdair


----------



## Mehm

^^I was under the impression that thizSantaCruz was organizing.  You should pm him eh :D


----------



## alasdairm

yep - i missed that so i'll defer to him.

i'd love to join in but i already have two accounts and can't afford to deposit to a third. have fun.

alasdair


----------



## Mehm

^^is one of them at absolute by chance?


----------



## alasdairm

sadly, no. ultimatebet and pokerstars.

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

*bangs head against wall*

Went out of my last two tournaments when I was an 80% favourite heads-up and a 77% favourite in a three-way hand (both when the money went in). 

But I did make it to 3rd in a 90 man SnG, consciously trying to follow Ali's advice to play to win rather than play not to lose (started getting very aggressive when near the bubble, won some heads-ups and scared lots of people off their blinds. It was sweet to watch). Cheers for the advice


----------



## alasdairm

was it for real cash - you must have won a fair bit?

i'm glad to hear you had success. don't forget that playing to win is a longer term strategy. you'll lose a few and they'll hurt but, overall, i'm convinced your game will improve.

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

Not a lot, it was a $1 buy-in. Made about $10. Should have finished first ($22), too - when it was down to the last 3 I had over half the chips, but the same thing happened, my good hands got cracked (QQ lost to A8 on board of xAQ-A-A). 

Still, I'm getting better. Felt like I was average or above at each of those tourneys. Need to work on (a) aggression and (b) defending blinds a bit, and I'll be one of the top players there. 

As an aside: I've noticed that almost always, when all the money goes in pre-flop, I'm the favourite (or in an AK v JJ kind of coin flip). Do you think that's a bad thing (e.g., I'm not taking enough risks)?


----------



## huntmich

Never fault yourself for playing like that.  You ALWAYS want to get your money in with the best of it.

Thats really my style too: play conservative, play the best hands, except for choice instances.  When people think you are conservative, you can steal, and get agressive at the right time, and people believe you.


----------



## rm-rf

i played poker about 5 times in my life. i can say that im not good at it. 

considering i wrote some simple software a few years ago that deals hands of poker and then tells you the odds of the hand, i doubt ill ever get into it.


----------



## aanallein

I don't really like online poker. Most of poker is the head game of knowing your opponents and reading them. You can't do that effectively, if at all over the internet.

I play poker every thursday and while I win more often then not, random luck is a bitch at times and can be pretty frustrating.


----------



## rm-rf

my old roomate used to make a couple hundred bucks a month just playing online poker, i think thats pretty cool.


----------



## alasdairm

hey simon

there was $90 in the pot and first only payed $22 - where do you play?

i agree with huntmich. think about this too - you 're going to play some hand perfectly and still lose sometimes 

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

Thanks to both of you. That's pretty much what I thought.

I was playing on Full Tilt. They have 90 player SnGs where the top 18 get paid. 10-18 win less than $2, and it goes up from there. You need to finish top 3 for any reasonable return.


----------



## huntmich

But at the same time, you can't always wait until you get the perfect hand to go all in with.  During a tournie, any time that you get within around 10x of the big blind, you have one move, and that move is all in.  Get your money in and hope you have the best of it.  It's no use waiting for those pocket aces when you only have 2x the big blind.  Even if you win with them at that point you are still fucked.


----------



## aanallein

> i agree with huntmich. think about this too - you 're going to play some hand perfectly and still lose sometimes



Yep exactly. I played perfect last night but still lost 3 big hands that I couldnt have played any other way. Lost a considerable chip lead (was up 80 bucks atleast) and put me in a sour mood.

And as the person above said, you can't wait on the perfect hand. Even at small stakes tables you have to make moves with your gut instinct. Shit I've gone all in on a King high and walked away 100 dollars richer (and we arent playing a lot so thats a big hand). Fucking King high lol. So yea, you gotta have a good read, understanding of the cards, and the ability to make big ass plays based on sheer blind dumb luck. I'm also notorous for getting what I need on the river. My friends hate me for it. =)

Furthermore, atleast in my experience playing irl (not online), its alllll about having the chip lead. I start getting completely agressive and shutting people down. Remember that sometimes people will stay in with a 10 J and they could catch something on the turn or river to make that hand into something good. If you start pushing people out you destroy quality hands before they can threaten you. Thats one way to really start winning big.

Oh and pay to see the flop ffs. Too many people fold out "shit cards" not wanting to see the flop.. those 3 cards can turn your 3 9 off suit into a full house and you'll feel like a dipshit for not spending the money to see it realized. Also, sometimes your A Q aint gonna do shit if the flop is 3, 4, 5 so you just waited 10 hands for a pocket pair that isnt going anywhere.

But thats just how I play and I'm somewhat of a nub and make mistakes now and again but its all in fun.


----------



## SardonicNihilist

8 8


----------



## alasdairm

aanallein said:
			
		

> Furthermore, atleast in my experience playing irl (not online), its alllll about having the chip lead. I start getting completely agressive and shutting people down.


while i agree in part, you have to gauge the prevailing conditions at the table. i've seen friends double up in the first hand then watch it all dribble away as they try play aggressively to try to bully people and end up back where they started...

there are 1,000,000 poker aphorisms, here are mine:

1. make losing hands win
2. make winning hands pay
3. sometimes, to win, you need the cards, sometimes you don't. learn to tell the difference and you'll do well.

i think a lot of people have an idea of how to do #1. at my kitchen table games and in the $40 casino tournaments i play, few people are adept at #2.

what are your poker aphorisms?

alasdair


----------



## Mehm

> what are your poker aphorisms?



-if someone puts me all in pre-flop on my AA, I call :D
-fear the full house when you've made a flush, this second best hand is a huge money loser
-play smallish pocket pairs aggressively, use them to represent hitting the flop
-don't play too consistently, alter tight with loose (I'm not talking 9 3 off suite here...never call with a hand like this), throw in some week play as well
-you should probably fold AT LEAST 50% of your hands, tight play is more like 9/10...they're bad hands, don't play them.
-drinking impairs judgement


----------



## aanallein

2-3 drinks = win


----------



## Mehm

just made 40 bucks at the .50-1 and 1-2 limit tables in about 2 hours (I have yet to turn an overall profit on this poker thing yet..).  Yeah for me


----------



## Mehm

yo aan, you should play in our game.  do you poke online?


----------



## Infinite Jest

alasdairm said:
			
		

> what are your poker aphorisms?



My current thinking (not all aphorisms, I guess):

1. Position, position, position: limp with almost anything in late position: be prepared to lay down low pairs or two paint cards or A-3 in early position.
2. Low pocket pairs: limp into unopened pots, and fold unless you hit the set; OR jam all-in later in the tournament when the blinds are getting high, and hope that either everyone folds, or I get heads-up against someone with overcards and it's 50/50. 
3. Know which hands I'm willing to go broke on (e.g. if I raise with tens in early position, and someone re-raises me all-in, I need to be prepared to fold, OTOH, in the same position with Kings, I call, and if my opponent has aces, or sucks out with a lower hand, so be it). [heh, I'm playing now, and as I type this, this exact situation came]
4. Top pair, top kicker: is really the best way to win pots (at least at my level - so nice to play AQ on a Q high board, and be called by someone with Q-10 or something).
5. Get some money in pre-flop, don't just limp. That way, even if I miss the flop, it's very hard for opponents to defend against a continuation bet.
6. Make your opponent make the decision - bet, don't check or limp. 
7. If someone is acting as though they have you beat, they probably do - it's easier to fold and get the money back when you're more confident that you're ahead. 

Thoughts?


----------



## aanallein

Mehm said:
			
		

> yo aan, you should play in our game.  do you poke online?



Not something I'd really like to pursue at the moment. I like to gamble with friends in person for the social aspect, I don't really gamble much beyond that. Thanks though. =)

To be perfectly honest I can't quite make broad statements on my play style. I try to keep it all over the place, any kind of pattern throws off my random style and I love keeping the entire table off guard. My buddy who's house we play at absolutely HATES playing against me because there is virtually no way to read me. I'm just completely all over and have no fear while playing. This style owns when people play ultra-conservative which all my opponents generally do.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Oh, I got a great one I saw on a poker forum:

Someone starts a thread about how he's got in over his head, he's lost his rent money, his girlfriend's furious, and he's started cutting himself again.

One of the responses discusses bankroll management etc, then finishes with "and stop cutting yourself. I'm sure you can see that that's a - EV move". 

When you start seeing e'thing in poker metaphors, you are maybe playing too much poker ;-)


----------



## alasdairm

Sim0n said:
			
		

> 1. Position, position, position...


huge part of th egame. i think the first big step up i took from beginner to whatever was when i understood - and played well - position.


			
				Sim0n said:
			
		

> 2. Low pocket pairs: limp into unopened pots, and fold unless you hit the set; OR jam all-in later in the tournament when the blinds are getting high, and hope that either everyone folds, or I get heads-up against someone with overcards and it's 50/50.


yep. agreed. when i have 22 and the flop hits A82, i feel like god (or what i expect he would feel like if he existed  )


			
				Sim0n said:
			
		

> 6. Make your opponent make the decision - bet, don't check or limp.


i wouldn't agree with this as a concrete rule. my move is always a function of a number of factors. there are plenty situations where a check is the best bet. that said, i'll play the occasional sit'n'go where i won't allow myself to ever bet/check/call. raise or fold. it's fun sometimes but it's just an occasional distraction.


			
				Sim0n said:
			
		

> 7. If someone is acting as though they have you beat, they probably do - it's easier to fold and get the money back when you're more confident that you're ahead.


i wouldn't agree with this either. as you play better and better players, strength as often indicates weakness and vice versa. it depends.

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

alasdairm said:
			
		

> i wouldn't agree with this either. as you play better and better players, strength as often indicates weakness and vice versa. it depends.
> 
> alasdair



Fair point. I should have specified 'at low levels'. It's not always true then, either. But the big bet into a board when the third suited card comes? More often than not, it means he has hit his flush.

Maybe it's a flaw in my game, but at the moment I hate sucking out in situations like that, and I'd rather fold. I need to get better at reading people, and putting them on a hand. But one thing at a time, you know?


----------



## alasdairm

related reading (click it):





alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

Thanks - I've heard many good things about that one. Haven't read it yet. I read his other book, thought it wasn't very good (but it was more aimed at limit and cash games, not NL tourneys). 

Harringdon on Hold 'Em is the one I've found most useful.


----------



## alasdairm

i read it recently and learned a few things. that said, without closer analysis, some of his tells seemed to simply contradict others and i felt like i was back where i started 

alasdair


----------



## Raving Loony

How do you better poker deal with tables when dickheads start to join, continually trash talk and other players at the table start getting getting shitty and the betting patterns become grossly unpredictable?  I like to think that I can read an opponents strength or weaknesses quite well, but I am clueless when they become hostile.

I found I was in a situation when I was playing well and making good reads of my opponents hand strength.  But my judgement completely went off course when in these situations.  I found myself folding before the flop stong hands because there was all sorts of crazy stuff going on like weird all-ins whilst a person is boiling underneath and pre-flop bets at 8-10 times the big blind.  As a result of all this I ended being blinded out because I had missed those stronger opportunities, but at the time I felt like it was more appropriate to let the dickheads slug it out.


----------



## aanallein

Honestly I'd avoid playing in any situation like that. Makes life simpler.


----------



## alasdairm

Raving Loony said:
			
		

> How do you better poker deal with tables when dickheads start to join, continually trash talk and other players at the table start getting getting shitty and the betting patterns become grossly unpredictable?  I like to think that I can read an opponents strength or weaknesses quite well, but I am clueless when they become hostile.


if you can't just tune it out, switch off chat to totally ignore the trash talk. for me, any information at all is useful. you may find that trash talkers give away information on their hands without realising it. as in live play, watch for tells and patterns - it's very hard but you may notice something.

also, in terms of play, i would tighten up a bit but play more aggressively. if i sense weakness, i might pull off a big bluff then show it to show them i'm not intimidated and to try to shut them up. the only thing that silences a trash talker is taking his/her chips.

alasdair


----------



## Rusty Cage

alasdairm said:
			
		

> related reading (click it):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> alasdair




Personally I would recommend any book by sklansky he REALLY delves into numbers, and position, and the math part of the game... he doesn't talk a lot about peoples tells, or things like that, instead it's just the mathematical aspect of the game.


----------



## Raving Loony

alasdairm said:
			
		

> if you can't just tune it out, switch off chat to totally ignore the trash talk. for me, any information at all is useful. you may find that trash talkers give away information on their hands without realising it. as in live play, watch for tells and patterns - it's very hard but you may notice something.
> 
> also, in terms of play, i would tighten up a bit but play more aggressively. if i sense weakness, i might pull off a big bluff then show it to show them i'm not intimidated and to try to shut them up. the only thing that silences a trash talker is taking his/her chips.
> 
> alasdair



I can generally read the state of a drunken persons position quite well, but what I struggle with is how to re-read the 2 or 3 people who have turned into psychos because they want that drunken trash talker off the table at all costs.  I found a few people were ganging up on the drunken trash talker and throwing large amounts of lots of chips to push the drunk out.  Plus I never like getting into four or five way action to the river during periods of over betting (even on reasonable hands).  Is that a bad thing?


----------



## alasdairm

^ it's so tough. generally, if a lot of people are getting into pots i get more aggressive. that said, online it seems crazy - the blinds will be 20/40 and i'll raise 300 in late position with good cards and still get 6 calls. i'm not sure what the answer to that is other than to seek out higher stakes games where people play a little more 'traditionally'.



			
				Rusty Cage said:
			
		

> Personally I would recommend any book by sklansky he REALLY delves into numbers, and position, and the math part of the game... he doesn't talk a lot about peoples tells, or things like that, instead it's just the mathematical aspect of the game.


i'm sure there are many better books on poker in general but i was responding directly to this:


			
				Sim0n said:
			
		

> I need to get better at reading people, and putting them on a hand.



alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

I have been gone for a while on a small vacation.  Nice to see that the poker thread is going strong.

I have not gotten enough takers for the private tourney and am still waiting on takers.  Anyone interested shoot me a PM, at the very least I want 7 people I think I have 3 that are interested.  Buy in will be 5 dollars.l

Anyone here play cash games?  Seems like most discussions are about tournaments and sit-n-gos.

My pokerisms might be a little different because I do not play tourneys but here are the rules I try to live by.

1.  Make your hands count, DO NOT SLOWPLAY (unless opponent is hyper-aggressive).

2.  Try to avoid going broke with TPTK as much as possiblee.

3.  Make sets, get paid.

4.  Punish the donks and loose/passive calling stations by only playing quality hands and playing for stacks.  ( I used to try to play more hands than normal against these opponents but realized the variance was too much for me.  Now I fold a lot of hands to these players but when I do take a hand I am making a lot of cash).

5.  Always work at analyzing and improving your game.


----------



## Rusty Cage

alasdairm said:
			
		

> i'm sure there are many better books on poker in general but i was responding directly to this:
> 
> 
> alasdair




I understood that, I was just simply throwing out some good related reading, especially your way since you like numbers mr. 2-3.


----------



## fozzy nutz

Sim0n said:
			
		

> Fair point. I should have specified 'at low levels'. It's not always true then, either. But the big bet into a board when the third suited card comes? More often than not, it means he has hit his flush.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> at low levels its were it's espically true that showing strength is a tell they just don't know its yet. another good one is if they have postition and don't want you to bet they'll start stacking their chips as a false sign of strength.
> 
> a big bet when 3 suited cards hit the board usually means they don't have a flush.... they have an ace or king and its a semi bluff. lets say your playing a low suited 4/5 let say and you hit you flush on the flop first thing you need to do is figure out where you stand in the hand. if you make a big bet the only way your getting called is if your already beat or your playing against a donkey. a flush verus an ace high flush draw is at worst a 70/ 30 favorite. against trips it's still 65/35


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

I don't know about that a suited flop coupled with a big bet means that they are protecting a pair.  If I flop a flush I am going to bet big to represent protecting a high pair otherwise I am not getitng paid off very well.  If you bet small as if you are hunting people are not going to pay you off when you bomb the turn or the river.  The best bet you have is to bet around the pot and hope villain thinks you are protecting a high pair and they have you outkicked.

*edit* To tell you the truth one of the most outstanding mistakes at low stakes poker is that players seemed to be too scared of the flush.  Too many times do I see players quickly bailing when that third suited card hits.  When I see players doing this a lot it goes down into the notes and I am bombing the board when the board is 2 to the flush.


----------



## Infinite Jest

fozzy nutz said:
			
		

> at low levels its were it's espically true that showing strength is a tell they just don't know its yet. another good one is if they have postition and don't want you to bet they'll start stacking their chips as a false sign of strength.



Heh, I just played with someone who went all-in preflop with KK second hand of a tourney. Half the table had already folded, and the others followed. He won 30 chips for a 9000 chip bet. (He'd taken two others out in the first hand when they went all-in with nothing).

So I hear what you're saying, but I think it varies:

real donkeys: get all excited that they have a big hand, and slam in all their chips.
smarter players: act strong when they're weak, and vice versa.
smarter still: copy thizzSantaCruz and act strong when they're strong, hoping people will think they're like the second group, and are bluffing....

no doubt there are more layers of subtlety that I haven't noticed yet....


----------



## aanallein

^ you just gotta learn your opponent. If I get a super hand straight off the bat I gotta also know what they have, or atleast have a good idea. If I can slow play them to a bigger pot in the end, I'll take that route. If I can go all in earlier and force them in because I know they'll pursue, then I'll take that route. Depends on who you're playing against, the hand you have and the possible hand they have. It just depends imho.


----------



## fozzy nutz

i try to play the exact opposite as the table. if there are a lot of aggressive people tons of people in each pot i play tight as hell only play big wait because some will double you up. 

one good bet i've learned is the bet, check, bet theory. you hit your set on the flop lay out a decent size bet...if you string someone in check on the turn... push hard on the river. it's very hard to put someone on a hand when they do this.


----------



## INFaMaS

^^^

As to the above, I think Sklansky hit the nail on the head:

In loose games, want to stop bluffing and semi-bluffing so much, since they will probably call. You can relax your starting hand requirements and play more drawing hands since you'll know your opponents will pay you off if you hit something.

In tight games, bluffing and semi-bluffing become more important, since your opponents are more likely to fold. Your legitimate hands, however, aren't worth nearly as much since everyone is going to be playing a good hand.


----------



## Infinite Jest

I'm loving this thread guys 

Can I get some feedback on a sequence of hands?

90-seat tournament, down to 24. 18 get paid, but 10-18 pay less than double the buy-in. I'm in 8th place on a tight table. I have plenty of chips relative to the blinds. Lots of blinds are being stolen - I've folded all my blinds for the past 2 or 3 circuits. 

#1: I get QT and raise 4xBB on a semi-steal. BB puts in a pot sized re-raise. I call. Flop comes AAJ. He goes all-in. I fold and he shows me AK, so I would have been drawing to three outs. Correct fold, but was the steal and the pre-flop call correct?

#2: short-stack raises from button. I'm in BB with 89 suited. I call, she has 66 and they hold up. I ran this hand on an odds calculator, and I was a miniscule favourite, so mathematically it was correct....but I lost half my stack on a coinflip.

#3. Next hand I have 33. I now have about 10xBB left. I go all-in hoping to take the blinds or get a call from AQ or something where I can double up. I run into AJ suited and QQ and they both beat me. 

I go from 8th to out in 23rd in three hands.

Any thoughts?


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Sim0n I am not a big SNG player but I will give you my 2 cents for what its worth.




> #1: I get QT and raise 4xBB on a semi-steal. BB puts in a pot sized re-raise. I call. Flop comes AAJ. He goes all-in. I fold and he shows me AK, so I would have been drawing to three outs. Correct fold, but was the steal and the pre-flop call correct?



The fold is definantly correct and the steal seems like a good idea.  If you think you had a good chance to steal the blinds I do not see why you would not want to.  QT is marginal but definantly worth stealing blinds on.



> #2: short-stack raises from button. I'm in BB with 89 suited. I call, she has 66 and they hold up. I ran this hand on an odds calculator, and I was a miniscule favourite, so mathematically it was correct....but I lost half my stack on a coinflip.



Once again this call is mostly about how the opponenet has been playing.  Has she been attempting to steal a lot of blinds?  How small was her stack?  If it was small enough you have the correct odds to call with any 2 cards.  Also how big was your stack?  If you still had a relatively small stack I do not think I would make this call, but only if the discount you get from you big blind was neligible.



> #3. Next hand I have 33. I now have about 10xBB left. I go all-in hoping to take the blinds or get a call from AQ or something where I can double up. I run into AJ suited and QQ and they both beat me.



This is the correct play in my mind.  With 10x the blind I am shoving with anything marginal.  As the shortstack people will be gunning for you so a quick double up is key.

All in all I think I probably would have done the same thing for each hand in the same situation.  Its not a bad sequence of hands just an unfortunate one.


----------



## huntmich

I just learned this and thought it was quite useful:

A way to determine your pot odds:  After the flop, take the number of "outs" you have.  These are the number of cards in the deck that will give you the best hand.  Take this number, multiply by four.  Round up, and this is your percentage of winning the hand.  For example, if you have Q10, and the flop comes AJ2.  You have 4 outs to the nuts, the four remaining kings in the deck (this is assuming no one has any kings, and you have to take that into account).  Therefore, your odds of winning are around 17-18%.  Like I said, you round up a couple of percentage points to take into account runner runner hands.  Therefore, you have approximately a 1/6 chance of having the nuts.  If you plan on chasing and not semi-bluffing, it is economical to call any bet that is 1/6 or less of the pot.

After the turn, you take your number of outs and multiply by 2, rounding up.  Therefore, if the turn in the above situation came a 3 (board playing AJ23), you still have 4 outs.  Your percentage of hitting a four outer on the river is approximately 9-10%.


----------



## glowbug

Sim0n said:
			
		

> I'm loving this thread guys
> 
> Can I get some feedback on a sequence of hands?
> 
> 90-seat tournament, down to 24. 18 get paid, but 10-18 pay less than double the buy-in. I'm in 8th place on a tight table. I have plenty of chips relative to the blinds. Lots of blinds are being stolen - I've folded all my blinds for the past 2 or 3 circuits.
> 
> #1: I get QT and raise 4xBB on a semi-steal. BB puts in a pot sized re-raise. I call. Flop comes AAJ. He goes all-in. I fold and he shows me AK, so I would have been drawing to three outs. Correct fold, but was the steal and the pre-flop call correct?
> 
> #2: short-stack raises from button. I'm in BB with 89 suited. I call, she has 66 and they hold up. I ran this hand on an odds calculator, and I was a miniscule favourite, so mathematically it was correct....but I lost half my stack on a coinflip.
> 
> #3. Next hand I have 33. I now have about 10xBB left. I go all-in hoping to take the blinds or get a call from AQ or something where I can double up. I run into AJ suited and QQ and they both beat me.
> 
> I go from 8th to out in 23rd in three hands.
> 
> Any thoughts?


#1 - I doubt I'd have called the reraise unless my QT was suited.  With that size reraise from OOP BB I'd assume he either had A-high kicker or high pockets, raising the possibility that one of my cards was essentially counterfeited in either situation.   Of course it might also depend on how loosely I had observed him playing at that point, but most likely I'd have folded without a suit.

#2 - Depends on the size of the raise and her prior play.  Imo most non-pro folks tend to play tightly from SS in tournament near-end situations and you mentioned the table was tight, so I'd have assumed she was playing pockets and I'd have probably backed off, but since the pot odds were in your favor you really can't feel bad about a call there.  

Only problem is, imo you know you've absolutely got to hit the flop with at least the draw in that situation because you can't really afford to chase hitting a mid-pair to the turn after your stack just took a beating...that's why I'd have probably laid down, because hoping for a mid-pair hit on the flop against a decent raise just after taking a beating would be out of the question for me, so for me the only playable option would be for the draw.  And that wouldn't be enough for me in that situation.  

#3 - I assume you were SB w/ 33, is that correct, or am I reading "next hand" wrong?  Did neither of those other hands raise pre-flop?  If they didn't it's an okay gamble I suppose, but if they gave an indication of a hand I think at most I would have called and then bailed with no set on the flop...undoubtedly one of them would have pushed then even if you checked up.   

If nobody raised up to you, I'd still look at how many people limped in...if 3 or more limped in I'd suspect someone was softpedaling, hoping for a raise to hammer, or at least playing higher mid-pairs.  In that situation I _might_ have opted for a semi-steal raise to take a shot at taking it down...but once the other two called, from SB you're still essentially having to hit on the flop or get out imo.  33 from SB just isn't a pleasant view imo, particularly when you've got another full circuit coming to you to hold off for something better.

That's just me though, I don't subscribe to the theory that you've always got to push low pairs hard to play them at all.  

Also, I play on the tight side of tight-aggressive, so take my .02 for exactly what it's worth.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

4 outer on river is actually 8.7% basically make it a rule of thumb not to chase gut shot draws. *this was ment for hunt mich*

On glowbugs theory of #3... it depends on your position, if it is folded to me I think you have to push in that situation.  The blinds alone increase your stack by 15%.  33 is decent I would not mind getting called by overs here.  What you want to avoid is getting called by a coule of big stacks and have them check it down against you just to get you out of the tournament.  You are saying you lay down 33 and wait for a better hand?  At this point your stack is reduced to 8.5x the big blind and opponenets are even more likely to call you with any 2 cards because they are getting odds on you.  Plus in another orbit there is a pretty fair chance you are not going to see a better hand than a small pocket pair.

Only way I lay this down is if there is a raise infront of me.

I agree with #1, do not call that re-raise.  When I first read that I did not catch that.

For #2, if opponenet is playing tight it is more conceivable to put them on high overs than a pocket pair.  You can call with your 89s and chase a draw if given the oppurtunity or you can shove your stack if you hit an 8 or a 9.  Putting an opponenet on pocket pairs without there being a 3-bet preflop is a good way to play timid.


----------



## fozzy nutz

its hard to say without knowing what the blinds were at, the size of the chip stacks and how the people were playing. i'll set the blinds at 100 -200 for calculation sake.....all right my take on it


#1: I get QT and raise 4xBB on a semi-steal. BB puts in a pot sized re-raise. I call. Flop comes AAJ. He goes all-in. I fold and he shows me AK, so I would have been drawing to three outs. Correct fold, but was the steal and the pre-flop call correct?

the steal was not a bad play Q-10 is favored against about 60% of random hands.  once he called your 800 chip bet there was 1700 chips in the pot lets say he re-raised you 1200 there was 2900  in the pot you were getting over 2/1 return on your call. Q/10 against A/K is a 65/35 right call. Q/10 against A/A or K/K is a 80/20 so it was still the correct call if you believe in pot odds. my big question is why in the hell would he go all in thats the time to slow play. Think about the only hand that has you beat is J/J or A/A call everyone else folds thats the spot you slow play.

#2: short-stack raises from button. I'm in BB with 89 suited. I call, she has 66 and they hold up. I ran this hand on an odds calculator, and I was a miniscule favourite, so mathematically it was correct....but I lost half my stack on a coinflip. 

personally i wouldn't have made the call. why? because you were geting 1/1 return on your call and the situation that happened was (8/9 suited vs small pair) is the only time your favorite all the other potential hands you a dog.


#3. Next hand I have 33. I now have about 10xBB left. I go all-in hoping to take the blinds or get a call from AQ or something where I can double up. I run into AJ suited and QQ and they both beat me. 

i'm presuming you were the small blind....as been said any time your less then 10 times the blind you push


hopefully that was clear its a little easier  to explain then write it out


----------



## glowbug

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> On glowbugs theory of #3... it depends on your position, if it is folded to me I think you have to push in that situation.  The blinds alone increase your stack by 15%.  33 is decent I would not mind getting called by overs here.  What you want to avoid is getting called by a coule of big stacks and have them check it down against you just to get you out of the tournament.  You are saying you lay down 33 and wait for a better hand?  At this point your stack is reduced to 8.5x the big blind and opponenets are even more likely to call you with any 2 cards because they are getting odds on you.  Plus in another orbit there is a pretty fair chance you are not going to see a better hand than a small pocket pair.
> 
> Only way I lay this down is if there is a raise infront of me.


That was exactly what I premised my comment on, Simon being in SB position and knowing that at least 1 of the 2 players (at least the QQ player, if the AJ player was in later position and called the raise you got two decent hands you're facing against which you're probably a dog, since you're a dog to even higher suited connectors) had thrown down a healthy raise. 

No way the QQ player doesn't throw down a hefty raise to smoke out the A or K-rag, so if I'm looking at that w/ 33 from SB I'm going to call at best since I don't have the opportunity of being first firer with the all-in to pressure them.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Thanks all. I think I agree about not calling the re-raise in #1. I figured I was behind, but my logic at the time was to stay in and at least see a flop, and get out if it missed me. Partly, I didn't want to look weak - I figured I'd been folding a lot in the blinds (I had junk, but they didn't know that) so I didn't want to look like I'd back down against any agression.

With #3: The QQ was in the BB so he acted after me, and the AJ must have limped. I don't remember exactly but he was in mid position. He had us both covered. The QQ had about the same number of chips as me - e.g. he was shortstacked.

My bad luck. The table had been very weak up till then. The guy with AJ had been folding his blinds a lot - every time he was in a blind, the tourney shortstack would go all-in (he only had about 3-4xBB), and this guy would fold, even though he was about 2:1 to call, with the blinds and antes in the pot).


----------



## alasdairm

fozzy nutz said:
			
		

> hopefully that was clear its a little easier  to explain then write it out


perhaps people could start using pictures instead of descriptions - it's much easier to see what's going on. i found a whole pack of cards at:

http://holdemhandanalysis.tripod.com/images/kingofdiamonds.gif

which gives:






just change the name appropriately.

alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Ok I have a quick poker question for you guys.  I want to see what you think kof this.

I am on the CO (I act one spot before the button).  Table is 9 handed, .25/.50 blinds.  I have a stack of 50 dollars.  The hand is folded to me and I raise to 2 dollars with QQ.  The button calls and then the big blind pushes the bet up to 6 dollars.  I call (this might be my mistake right here).  The button folds.  The flop comes 4c As 5c.  Villain leads out into me with a bet of 5 dollars into a pot of 14.  What do you do here?  He has 24 dollars remaining in his stack.


----------



## glowbug

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> Ok I have a quick poker question for you guys.  I want to see what you think kof this.
> 
> I am on the CO (I act one spot before the button).  Table is 9 handed, .25/.50 blinds.  I have a stack of 50 dollars.  The hand is folded to me and I raise to 2 dollars with QQ.  The button calls and then the big blind pushes the bet up to 6 dollars.  I call (this might be my mistake right here).  The button folds.  The flop comes 4c As 5c.  Villain leads out into me with a bet of 5 dollars into a pot of 14.  What do you do here?  He has 24 dollars remaining in his stack.


All these scenarios depend on observations of prior play in the game, it seems.

If the guy hadn't been playing tight before, I think I'd reraise him 2.5X his bet there to see if he was bluffing.  He bet less than 1/2 the pot, which would suggest to me that he was either a) bluffing with nothing at all or trying to buy another card on a draw, b) he paired one of the unders or c) he's playing non-A pockets.

If it had been me playing his hand with pockets and I had hit the set, I would have played a pot-sized raise to try to take the pot at that point because of the draws, and all the better if my opponent had simply paired the A because he'd be likely to call and follow me all the way down the hand.  

So from that reasoning I wouldn't think he was betting a set.  And I don't think he paired A...I think the better bet in that case would have been to represent it more strongly in light of the draws on the board.

Imo by reraising him there you either take him down on the bluff or buy scenario because of his stack size...with your stack at that point you could afford to try to take him down with a reraise.  If he's on a draw and still decides to chase, probably the most he does is call to the turn and hopefully the turn doesn't help him so he'd probably check up in light of your reraise...you could decide then if you wanna push him again at that point.

Otoh, if he reraised you, you'd have a tough call to make eh...could be playing the A or a draw and willing to chase at any cost.  Again, it would depend on his prior play...I might lay down at that point.  But if he's bluffing or trying to buy the turn card you probably take him down on the reraise, so imo it'd be worth the shot at that cost.

If the guy had been playing tight before, I might be inclined to believe he'd hit the A, and lay down to his bet.


----------



## alasdairm

^ i agree with glowbug's first statement - it depends.

based only on what you wrote, he caught his ace or he has a decent flush draw (perhaps he's holding QcKc or maybe Ac and an irrelevant kicker).

there are two bets here: fold or all-in 

if i'm feeling cagey (depending...) i might see if a club hits on the turn. if not, i'm all-in 

alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

I had no reads on the hand, I had just sat down at the table.  The re-raise had me questioning myself, at 50 max ring games reraises pre-flop usually are insanely strong.  Not enough people widen up the range of their game in a controlled manner.  

In retrospect I probably should have 4-bet into him preflop and see how he reacted.  Most likely I have to lay this hand down but I got kind of antsy and pushed 17 at him which is not neccesarily a bad move because I am theoretically putting him all in but not risking as much money.  He has to know the remaining 11 dollars in his stack are going in if the turn drops, only bad thing is he pushed his whole stack at me.  Who knows the guy could have been a hyper-aggressive donk but I had to fold.  

Poker....I either love it or detest it.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

o and if anyone wants to get on some cash games at stars im on right now

i disabled the search function so get at me on aim skte1ement or PM me.


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## donkeyPUNCH

poke 'er?!  i barely know'er!!


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## fozzy nutz

glowbug said:
			
		

> All these scenarios depend on observations of prior play in the game, it seems.
> 
> If it had been me playing his hand with pockets and I had hit the set, I would have played a pot-sized raise to try to take the pot at that point because of the draws, and all the better if my opponent had simply paired the A because he'd be likely to call and follow me all the way down the hand.
> 
> So from that reasoning I wouldn't think he was betting a set.  And I don't think he paired A...I think the better bet in that case would have been to represent it more strongly in light of the draws on the board.
> 
> 
> If the guy had been playing tight before, I might be inclined to believe he'd hit the A, and lay down to his bet.




my take on it would have been he's playing big slick. why because i've sat at those 50 max ring games and he re-raised  and to me that means a/a, a/k, or k/k to me. he hits top set he's not going to lead out, a/k his bet is logical, k/k he's trying to represtent big slick and buy you off a weak ace.


if i were playing that hand and hit a set i would have slow played em trying to get all my money in the pot. i know draws are on the board but which of them would he have re-raised with? the only possibility is a/k of clubs and even then
i'm a 70/30 favorite


----------



## Mehm

thizz:  I would have called the re-raise on the pre-flop, then folded when the A droped on the flop.  I lose alot though so....


----------



## Mehm

here is another scenerio.  I'm in small blind on a 9 handed .5/.10 NL ring game.  I have 9 4 suited and pay .05 to see the flop.  Bam, 2 pair.  I'm raised .25 and push my whole $5 stack (all in) back.  He calls with top pair and catches another pair on the river.  

Not calling pre-flop with air is probably the best decision I guess.

any thoughts?


----------



## alasdairm

94 is my nemesis. i almost never play it unless i get to check it in the big blind and see a flop for free or prevailing conditions suggest otherwise.

regarding the scenario above, some hands you're just going to lose...

alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Yea my advice is do not play 94 ever unless you can see the flop for free from the big blind.  If there are 3-4 limpers outside the blinds I would complete due to pot odds.  With 94 you are looking for 2 pair or trips otherwise you have to lay it down.  The odds of this are not good so only call when there are a lot of players limping.  That is a good move to throw your stack at him after hitting 2 pair, you just took a bad beat.

Also a lot of beggining players make the mistake of playing out of the SB way too often.  Even though it is half price to call you wind up being in the worst position on the table post flop.  I am very hesitant to bet out here with anything less than top pair top kicker.  It is a good way to lose a bunch of money when you think you have the best hand.  Because of this I am only completing the big blind 19% of the time (according to Poker Tracker).  If any of you guys need some help on certain poker situations or need some good online reading material shoot me a PM.


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## Infinite Jest

Comment and question.

Comment: the turbo sit and goes on Full Tilt are unbelievably easy to beat:

Played 11; won 3; second 3; third once. Out of the money 4 times.

Start with 1500 in chips, blinds are 10/20 and go up every 2 minutes. Pretty soon, you're jamming all-in with J7o. The game totally rewards aggressive play with marginal hands; if you can pick your moment to start being aggressive, you will take down a lot of blinds on near-bluffs.

Question: etiquette. Tourney game, 9 at table. 3 in hand. Flop comes Jack Ten Ten. Big blind bets half the pot. Mid position folds. While the last player is thinking about his call, someone else types "damn, I folded a ten". Late position immediately re-raises BB all-in. BB calls (he was short-stacked) and the late position has the last ten. 

How do you feel about the guy typing that he'd folded a 10, while the hand was still active? The BB didn't say anything, but I would have been pissed off if it had been me.


----------



## Mehm

> How do you feel about the guy typing that he'd folded a 10, while the hand was still active? The BB didn't say anything, but I would have been pissed off if it had been me.



I think this is technically against the rules.  It's a big no no at my home game and seems pretty jacked online as well.


----------



## alasdairm

talking about a hand you're not in is absolutely out - you'll get in trouble in a casino doing that.

poker aphorism:

 - if you wouldn't play them unsuited, don't play them suited.

again, doesn't always apply but i often see people who've played, say a 78 which busts them, their mantra seems to be "_but they were suited_"

alasdair


----------



## aanallein

> How do you feel about the guy typing that he'd folded a 10, while the hand was still active? The BB didn't say anything, but I would have been pissed off if it had been me.



Ya this is bullshit. Even when somebody gives a tell while out of a hand indicating they have certain cards, even if it gives me an advantage, pisses me off. Knowing the folded cards in a hand changes everything..


----------



## huntmich

"If your redeeming quality is that the cards are suited, then they are suited for the muck."


----------



## uacvax

you guys play freeplay or what?


----------



## Infinite Jest

alasdairm said:
			
		

> talking about a hand you're not in is absolutely out - you'll get in trouble in a casino doing that.



That's what I figured. Should I have said anything? The person who busted out didn't speak up, and I figured it was none of my business really. What would have been the better etiquette?



> poker aphorism:
> 
> - if you wouldn't play them unsuited, don't play them suited.
> 
> again, doesn't always apply but i often see people who've played, say a 78 which busts them, their mantra seems to be "_but they were suited_"
> 
> alasdair



This is something I'm glad to have learned. Suited cards are only about a 2% better chance to win than the same cards, unsuited. So you get a slight edge, but it's not really worth it. Except maybe from late position, in an unraised pot with several callers?


----------



## Infinite Jest

uacvax said:
			
		

> you guys play freeplay or what?



I play free rolls and low stakes tournaments (say $1-2 entry). I don't play cash games well, so I stick to the single or multi-table tourneys. The others are a few levels above me


----------



## Mehm

uacvax said:
			
		

> you guys play freeplay or what?



i'd rather lose money..lol

Great info about the 2% advantage simon, makes my 9 4 look even worse
/laughing :D


----------



## uacvax

When do pot odds necessitate calling preflop with a shitty hand, if ever? 
For example on party poker freeplay people will start calling trains where if the first guy calls BB, all of them do. If you have something like 2 7 o is it still correct to call?

I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised that so many bluelighters are serious poker players, I'm not but I'd like to get started as there is a casino somewhat close to where I live. I'd practice more online but damn US legislation

I guess I don't have to check out 2plus2 anymore


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

play money is not really poker.  no one cares about losing money so way too many people call.  if you really want to start playing i suggest depositing enough money to play .05/.10 NL hold em.  if you play micro-limits the way poker is supposed to be played it should be easy money and before you know it your bank roll will be big enough to move up.

Pot odds will only be good to call with any 2 if you are in late position with a bunch of callers.  It will never be exactly pot odds to call with any 2, but any time that you think you can hit a 2 pair and extract enough money to make it a +EV play do it.  By being plus EV you are going to need to be able to make at around 20x the money you are putting in to call with any 2.  So basically only do this in the small blind behind a lot of limpers when the big blind is passive nad does not raise a lot.

One more thing, do not stop reading 2plus2, there is much better advice on there than I can give you or anyone else on this site.


----------



## uacvax

so partypoker doesn't accept us customers, period. what sites do you guys use?


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

I have recently joined pokerstars.  Absolute and Full Tilt are a couple of other sites that will accept US customers.


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## huntmich

Ok, so I was playing in a real game last night and had just sat down.  I always make it a rule not to get involved in big hands too soon after sitting down, but this hand damn near crippled me.  

So I had around 80 dollars, table average was around 150-200.  I get JJ in early position and raise it to 15 dollars ($1-2 Blinds).  I get two callers.  Flop comes 5-7-9 rainbow, and I'm in first position, so I put $20 out there.  Guy right next to me goes all in, and he gets a caller.  Now I have an overpair, but they are jacks.  Maybe some loose player called me with 6-8, maybe someone spiked a set, maybe two pair.  I have around 40 sitting in front of me, but I end up folding my overpair.  Turns out the all in was bluffing with an Ace-rag, and the caller had top pair.  If I would have called, I would have tripled up.  

What would you do in my situation?


----------



## fozzy nutz

hard call you were left $45 dollars left... pot had $188 in it 4:1 pot odds. you can't put someone on pocket k's or a's because they would have re-raised you pre-flop. i'm not even thinking about the str8t (why push you have the nutz i'd smooth call and let you bet again) or 2 pair because unless someone has a monster chip stack in front of them calling a 7.5 times the blind raise iwith 7/9 is a donkey play (notice its different calling then leading out a bet). so to me it's either q's, top pair, a set, maybe 6's or 8's on a semi bluff or a bluff. if i don't think about i fold the minute i start replaying it in my head getting 4 to 1 pot odds i could see my self calling it but not an easy decsion.


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## Infinite Jest

^
What do you think of the $20 bet? There's $45-$48 in the pot (depending on whether the callers were in the blinds or not). So the $20 bet doesn't seem too strong to me - looks like it could be read as a continuation bet, so it makes sense for the others to try to bluff or semi-bluff. 

(But what do I know, I spent my last session laying down top pair, good kicker (KQ on a K high board) because I was convinced that after leading out with a pot-sized bet, getting a caller and a raiser, that someone must have AK. The caller had pocket 9s, and the re-raiser had KT. Can't work out if I'm the donkey, or they are . Then went broke on a sequence of KK, JJ, JJ - same guy called with AQ, AQ, Q6, hit his A on the first and his Q on the 3rd, I won the 2nd. 

I hate JJ like Alasdairm hates 94 - I always lose with it ).


----------



## fozzy nutz

to me the $20 bet is on of 3 things:

 a continuation bet (you having A/k) just trying to take down the pot

you having a weak over pair 10's, J's, Q's because K's or A's or a set bets the pot or if their sneaky and have alot of gamble in them they wait for the next person to bet and check raises all-in but thats me i'm willing to risk all my chips with A's or K's or a set trying to double up against that flop. reasoning being if you want to double up but don't want anyone to see cards cheapily to draw out on you

or a made hand the str8t (even though i wouldn't play it that way) and they're slowly drawing money out of you.

the problem the $20 it begs to be called or re-raised on bluff the bet shows weakness with you stack left i would have bet the pot....right of the bat and make other people make decisons. 

to me i think the first mistake was betting the $15 (7.5 times the blinds) from early postion. J's are not are strong hand even more leading out early. to me put in a 3-4 times the bb bet lets say $8 lets say there's still only 2 callers so $24-$27 in the flop you bet the pot and then i bet you take it down right there


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## basix

Easy call, you are only calling another $45 to win a $245 pot, You would have to be ahead here only 1 time in 5 for this call to be a winning call, (plus EV). An over pair on that flop vs two idiots is a good oppurtunity, take advantage of it. If your up vs a set it happens. If you worried about losing the buyin then dont play that limit.

$1/2nl live players are awful, dont give em so much credit. Also players at that level will often slow play sets and straights so the allin isn't too bad a sign, although the call is worrying.


----------



## basix

> to me i think the first mistake was betting the $15 (7.5 times the blinds) from early postion. J's are not are strong hand even more leading out early. to me put in a 3-4 times the bb bet lets say $8 lets say there's still only 2 callers so $24-$27 in the flop you bet the pot and then i bet you take it down right there



Horrible advice if you've ever played in one of these games. Its the lowest casino limits,  3-4 X the BB is the 'standard' preflop raise in alot of situations, where it will actually achieve what you want it to. It won't do much at this level. A preflop raise will do 2 things, - thin the field, and build a pot. With JJ you want to thin the field and ideally be up against 1-2 opponents max. Any more players than that and you are going to be a big underdog after a flop. Raise $6-8 in a $1/2 live game and 5-8/10 players will probably call you with any 2. He is playing really shortstacked so his options are limited from the bat.

On the flop Hunt, you should of bet closer to a pot sized bet $50, and called any raise. I woulda just gone allin for your last $65 on the flop as theres no point leaving yourself with so little as its gauranteed to get in on a later street. 

Ignore the results aswell when analyising the hand, even if you were up vs a set and a straight it would of been the correct call. You can only put your opponents on a hand range when making a decision.


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## thizzSantaCruz

huntmich said:
			
		

> Ok, so I was playing in a real game last night and had just sat down.  I always make it a rule not to get involved in big hands too soon after sitting down, but this hand damn near crippled me.
> 
> So I had around 80 dollars, table average was around 150-200.  I get JJ in early position and raise it to 15 dollars ($1-2 Blinds).  I get two callers.  Flop comes 5-7-9 rainbow, and I'm in first position, so I put $20 out there.  Guy right next to me goes all in, and he gets a caller.  Now I have an overpair, but they are jacks.  Maybe some loose player called me with 6-8, maybe someone spiked a set, maybe two pair.  I have around 40 sitting in front of me, but I end up folding my overpair.  Turns out the all in was bluffing with an Ace-rag, and the caller had top pair.  If I would have called, I would have tripled up.
> 
> What would you do in my situation?



I bet the pot or near the pot on the flop.  1/2 pot bets work in tournaments not in ring games.  If the player still pushed over me in this situation I would likely fold.  Your raise is pretty strange too.  At 1/2 a 3.5x BB+1BB for every limper is a good raise amount.  *edit*  I did not see it was a live game, at my local casino 5x the BB is pretty standard for me.  I might get a slightly abnormal number of callers at first but when they showdown against me it seems to scare them away.  Never appear weak in a hand, here you did.


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## alasdairm

huntmich said:
			
		

> If I would have...




alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

OK lets get this thread rolling again.  I am thinking my new drug of choice is poker, lately it seems to be consuming a very large portion of my time.  

Anyways here is a hypothetical situation.  Blinds are 1/2 and effective stacks are 200.  Someone raises to 8 from mid position and everyone folds to you on the button.  You hold JJ and call the raise.  Villain has been playing pretty tight aggressive poker lets say he is around 17/7.  The flop comes 679 all clubs.  You have the jack of clubs.  Villain leads out with a 15 bet.  Are you cold-calling?  Folding?  Raising?


----------



## atri

i just started playing poker at the bowling alley out here. got bumped out kinda early holding KK by some ass holding AA


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## huntmich

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> OK lets get this thread rolling again.  I am thinking my new drug of choice is poker, lately it seems to be consuming a very large portion of my time.
> 
> Anyways here is a hypothetical situation.  Blinds are 1/2 and effective stacks are 200.  Someone raises to 8 from mid position and everyone folds to you on the button.  You hold JJ and call the raise.  Villain has been playing pretty tight aggressive poker lets say he is around 17/7.  The flop comes 679 all clubs.  You have the jack of clubs.  Villain leads out with a 15 bet.  Are you cold-calling?  Folding?  Raising?




Honestly, in that situation, I would probably just try to call it down to the river as cheaply as possible, assuming some q, k ,or a doesn't come (unless its a club).  Jacks are a dangerous hand, and I don't like acting too strong unless I have a set.


----------



## JV

^^i agree w/ huntmich, i would call it to the river and hope my jacks hold up.


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## thizzSantaCruz

You are calling to the river even if a rag falls and villain leads out with another pot sized bet?  I think this is a very tricky situation.  By calling pot sized bets to the river you will be commiting your entire stack on a weak over pair on a draw heavy board.  Arguably opponent could be semi-bluffing or all out bluffing but with the read as a TAG on this player it is not that likely.  The chance of hitting another club is still there on the river but then again it is only a jack high flush.


----------



## alasdairm

i'm getting very close to simply giving up on online poker. the amount of crazy play i see is insane and i seem to finish in the bubble every time i play. add to that the incredibly shitty attitude of what seems to be most people playing online these days, and you have a recipe for something i used to enjoy which seems a lot less enjoyable these days.

contrast that to my last 4 live games - 3 casino tournaments and a kitchen-table tournament.

i finished 2nd, 2nd and 1st in the casino and i won the kitchen table tournament. in the kitchen tourney, i scraped to the final table in last place with 6 chips. 2nd last had 12 and the chip leader had me outchipped 45 chips to 6. i played some great poker - a combination of bluffing hands to win and making winning hands pay.

i think i need to set myself up for success by quitting the online game entirely.

what are your experiences of play online versus play in real life?

alasdair


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## huntmich

Alasdair, I'm right there with you, as are most of my friends who play online.  It's a crapshoot online, with bad play being rewarded left and right.  I don't know for certain if I can say that it's rigged, but I do know that I always get my money in with the best of it, and I rarely come out in the money.

I am sticking to live money cash games from now on, with an occasional live tourney here and there.


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## Infinite Jest

My experience is the opposite, because the kitchen games I play in are very low quality (games of chance more than skill, lots of wild cards and variants). (And there are no casinos near here - only two in the country). So although I see some weird plays online, it's still better quality. I do get annoyed when people call me down with 3rd pair and suckout on the river, or call on a flush draw with massively wrong odds, but I'm trying to learn to deal with it. And there's always the bonus that in online tourneys some idiot will go all-in with you with nothing, and double you up early on.

From reading poker boards it seems as though good offline players can struggle online, and vice versa. I wouldn't presume to venture why, though.


----------



## Blowmonkey

online poker sucks

people will call everything

it's not even poker anymore.


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## thizzSantaCruz

Suck outs a part of poker and they blow but at the same time these are the plays that you make money from.  If someone hits their 4 outer to stack you it does not bother me much because I know it is the same player like this that is paying me off huge.  You have to have a mindset to ignore these beats.  At times it can be brutal and I do take breaks from playing to get my mind right.  Playing while on tilt is the worst thing that I can ever do.  Talk about donking off chips when I am on tilt I am a fucking maniac.  Basically a broken ATM machine that spits out money.  

There is no way I think online poker is rigged.  It seems pretty legit to me and the same bad beats occur to me at the casino as they do online.  One thing that people forget is you play hands much quicker online than at a casino, so it may seem that bad beats happen more often, but in reality you are just getting more oppurtunities to get them.

The level of play online compared to a casino is vastly different.  Online at the limits I mostly play at (50NL) the play is halfway decent.  A lot of people are attempting to play ABC poker and be tight-aggressive.  Most of them are failing to do some and are very tight-passive.  You find the occasional maniac and the occasional fish.  

Jump to a casino and their lowest limit game 100NL most likely plays like 25NL online.  Everyone wants to see cards at a casino and people are there to gamble.  If you want to talk bad beats I have been hit with the most sickening beats at my local casino by some retard that does not know how to play.  The variance seems to be much greater at a casino but the payoff can be much better.

If you are receiving a lot of bad beats online the only thing I can think to say is it might be your play.  Do not slow play anything except a full house or better (unless you have a read on your opponent).  In cash games the whole point of betting near the pot when you hit a hand is to get your opponent to fold.  I do not want them seeing that extra card and maybe hitting a 2 pair or better.  If they do hit that 2 pair and I think my top pair top kicker is good I am going to lose a lot of money.  You have to protect your hands and realize that when you only make a small pot off of top pair top kick that it is okay.  Play for stacks when you have a hidden set or straight.   Top pair hands should win you small pots.  Anytime I am playing for stacks with top pair top kicker I am going to be scared because most of the time you will not be the winner.

The main thing is you need to protect your hand.  Most people receive bad beats too much because they are failing to do this.


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## alasdairm

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> If you are receiving a lot of bad beats online the only thing I can think to say is it might be your play.


i know nobody wants to hear bad beat stories but i'm always interested in the different perspectives on various hands.

i just got done with a 'mini' tournament. $5 buy-in and 100 players max. i'm playing great and after one hour in i'm in first place.

i'm the big blind and i get dealt pocket jacks. the guy under the gun raises - but not by much - and there are about 5 callers. gets to me and i make a big raise. everybody folds except one guy who moves all-in. he's got about half my chips and i call. he has a Q4 offsuit and catches a queen. pretty deflating to say the least. i asked him what possessed him to call a decent raise with a Q4 and he says "_i don't know_". i was expecting a cocky answer or some cliched crap about "_i was gambling_". sigh.

next hand, i move all in to try to steal blinds with AQ suited. get called by JJ and the guy makes quad jacks.

all over in two hands. the second one? fair enough. the first one. wtf?

my conclusion? it's like soldiers in war say - if the bullet has your name on it, there's nothing you can do...

alasdair


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## thizzSantaCruz

Yea the first one is definantly a bad beat.  I am not very experienced in MTT's at all, I have played one online my whole poker career.  From what I have heard though the low limit ones are basically a crap shoot with people moving all-in with junk all the time.  I am not sure what strategy you can use to counteract their willingness to play nothing.  

Check out flopturnriver.com and make a post in the MTT section about low limit tourneys.  I am sure someone will have some advice for you.

The bad beats I was talking about are when you spike top pair top kick and don't bet large enough to push someone off their hand, and they wind up hitting a 2 pair.  Beats like that are avoidable but if you are getting it all in with the best hand.......I guess you have to hope that the poker gods are smiling upon you.


----------



## synchrojet

Wow.  This thread really takes me back to my days of poker ignorance.  I started playing no limit when I was fifteen years old in Pryor, Oklahoma.  I cut my teeth with guys like -- I won't mention names.  Tough players, all.  So by nineteen I thought I had the shit down.  I started playing at Commerce casino in California at nineteen, and played there for years.  I won several large tourneys and decided I should think about playing professionaly.  My friends were all for it.  Hell, I was a good enough player, right?  By legal age I already had six years of intensive no-limit real world experience.  I had already won over twenty grand in one sitting once, and over ten grand several times (I failed to factor in that I had lost every single dollar of those wins -- the twenty grand night I lost it all that same night at Asian games!)

Anyway.  I get on the circuit and run a thousand dollar bankroll into over fifty in just under a year.  I'm the shit with my friends -- I'm the shit according to me.

And then I lose it all in two weeks.  Nothing changed, either.  The game caught up with me is all.

Why do I tell you this?  Because I hear language in this post that reminds me of me when I was younger and dumber.  I still play poker now and again.  I play limit and no limit, stud, hold 'em and (my favorite) Omaha.  I keep books, pay taxes, etc.  I win about one out of six sessions, but when I win I tend to multiply my bankroll by an average factor of eleven.  So I'm in the black this year.

If you don't count the tens of thousands I've lost over the previous years, well...I'm winner, eh?


----------



## huntmich

Here's a pretty bad beat that happened to me today at the casino:

So I came with $100, and after doubling up with KK and stealing a couple pots, I was up to maybe 180.  I am dealt AK of hearts, so I make a fairly standard raise to $12; it folds half way around the table, until someone else raises to $25.  I call, figuring at worst I was facing a race situation.  So it was heads up going to the flop, and it comes AQQ, no hearts.  So my flush possibility is dead, but I have top pair top kicker.  So after he checks, I figure I would try to figure out if he has a Queen.  I bet into it with a fairly strong $45, and the other guy calls.  Turn comes a dead card, a 2; he checks again.  Now by this point I think he might be slow playing trip queens, so I decide to check and see a free river, which comes out a third queen.  So now I have a boat, queens over aces, which I figure HAS to be good at this point.  He bets $50, and I (thank god) decide to just call him down.

He had pocket aces.  I was dead after the flop.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

synchrojet said:
			
		

> I win about one out of six sessions, but when I win I tend to multiply my bankroll by an average factor of eleven.  So I'm in the black this year.




If you don't mind me asking how do you exactly do this?  That is a terrible win rate...and why is that when you win you are always winning big?  I donn't understand how this logically fits into the game of NLHE.  I do not have nearly as much experience playing as you do so maybe you can explain how you can do this.

My poker tracker stats tell me over the last 59000 hands  I have won money in52% of my sessions and turn 5.39BB/100 hands.  Decent stats, nothing to brag about.  I do not rally know how you can win 1/6 sessions but come up huge when you do.  Are you trying to force action?  Your variance also seems out of control.  If you can blow a good portion of your bankroll in one sitting you have bankroll management problems or tilt management problems.

Or maybe you should just quit playing those asian games.

If you are properly rolled for poker and are playing at a level of play you can beat there is no reason you should ever go broke.  When I first started playing(I was a terrible player), sure I lost tons of money and had to redeposit.  Since then I have not pumped money into my roll since switching to stars.  If you are properly rolled for NLHE (at least 20x maximum buy in) then if you drop 10 buyins you drop down to the next limit.  Grind your way back up until you are properly rolled and there you go.


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## alasdairm

poker aphorisms:

 - online, no matter how badly a hand of poker is played, somebody will comment "nh" or "nice hand"

 - online, no matter how badly your game of poker is played, somebody will tell you "gg" or "good game"



alasdair


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## fozzy nutz

all right so here's a home game situation it's a 50 dollar buy-in 10 person game all starting off with 5000 chips... blinds are 250/500 the button has around 4 k chips small blind is chip leader with around 36 k i'm big blind w/ around 12 k.... blinds are going up next hand to 500/1000.

hand starts of with the button going all-in, small blind thinks about it for awhile then finally calls. i look down with pocket 4's... i have a good read on both of them button scares me because he's going all-in on an ace/anything, two face cards or a pair. the way the small blind acted  i put him on a weak ace... a pair or a strong ace would have been a quick call

so i look down what do i do? dump the 4's even though i'm almost positive their the best hand at the time? well i push all in the sb calls and sure enough the button shows a/7 and the small blind shows a/10 .. did i make the right move


----------



## alasdairm

^ did they catch?

tough one - without knowing all the folds, we don't know how many out there were but you have to avoid aces, sevens and tens (or catch a 4) to win. i would have dumped it i think. against one player heads up, i would like my chances.

that said, perhaps it's just the number of hands i see which skews my memory but, playing online a pocket pair almost never manages to stand up against two over cards when it's a classic coin toss...

alasdair


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## Infinite Jest

alasdairm said:
			
		

> poker aphorisms:
> 
> - online, no matter how badly a hand of poker is played, somebody will comment "nh" or "nice hand"
> 
> - online, no matter how badly your game of poker is played, somebody will tell you "gg" or "good game"
> 
> 
> 
> alasdair



The first one is stoopid, I agree. The second one, I always interpret as meaning "it was good playing with you", not "you played well". 

I like the "nice river" or "nice catch" comment. I got a classic one a few days ago. I've AT late position and raise 4xBB. Being online, I get 4 callers. flop comes QKx rainbow. I have nut straight draw with about 1500 in the pot. Everyone checks. Turn is another low card. Someone bets 60 (minimum). I call, few others call. River is J, giving me the nuts. Someone bets 300, next guy calls, I raise, get three callers.

I show down the straight and the guy who min bet comments "nice river". All I could do not to give him a lesson in pot odds (calling 60 into a 1500 pot is 25 to 1, my chances of drawing a J are about 1 in 12).  Instead I just gave him the donkey's response of "ty", hoping to tilt him. Seemed to work, a few hands later he re-raised all in on the river with two pair and lost to an obvious straight


----------



## Infinite Jest

alasdairm said:
			
		

> ^ did they catch?
> that said, perhaps it's just the number of hands i see which skews my memory but, playing online a pocket pair almost never manages to stand up against two over cards when it's a classic coin toss...
> 
> alasdair



According to the odds calculator, fozzy would have been a slight favourite to win the hand (38% vs 31% for the AT and 21% for the A7). There's also the small chance that the SB would fold, I guess. Mathematically, a correct play - but tactically? I'll leave that to smarter people than me


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## fozzy nutz

i hate to admit it but it being past 2 am influenced my thinking in the hand. my take on it was if the button wins i still have more chips then i started then hand with. small blind wins i take 2nd and $150 and get some sleep. also influencing my decision was the blinds were going up to 500/1000 next hand so i would have been very short stacked at 11,500 and been praying for a coin flip.  the big stack won by the way took my 100 profit and got some sleep.


----------



## alasdairm

Sim0n said:
			
		

> According to the odds calculator, fozzy would have been a slight favourite to win the hand (38% vs 31% for the AT and 21% for the A7).


without knowing what was folded, it's impossible to know for sure. certainly, prevailing conditions would influence my decision but, lately, as far as i can tell, a pair never seems to hold up to two over cards online regardless of the odds 

alasdair


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## Infinite Jest

^
Heh, lately I'm finding that a pair doesn't hold up against one over and one under card (JJ v Q5, say). My new theory on poker is always fold JJ preflop  (that, and follow the Banana System)


----------



## alasdairm

poker aphorism:

 - there's no good way to play JJ - you always get screwed.

alasdair


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## thizzSantaCruz

I am not sure you would want to fold JJ preflop.  You can set hunt and look to stack your opponent if given implied odds.  Also I think it has decent value as an overpair, but if you are not taking the pot down at the flop you are really going to need to think about check-folding.  Also if you are coming up against big resistance, even if the board is low you have to think about folding.  

When I play JJ I just don't let myself get attached to it.


----------



## Infinite Jest

I hear you  I was being slightly facetious. It just seemed that everytime I played it I either ran into an idiot holding Q5 who got lucky, or the one time I hit a nice safe board with no overcards, someone else had pocket AA. (OK, I'm discounting the time I hit top set and broke someone who'd hit a set of 5s). 

I'm going to try and play JJ like a low-mid pocket pair, try to hit a set, like you say


----------



## Mehm

I play jj (the fifth best hole hand) very agg pre-flop and hope to get some callers.  after all, if a mouse re-raises, i'll either call or fold..depending on the size of the raise.  if the flop is all rags, I'll continue to play it strong, hoping to knock out people with overcard draws..thereby taking the pot before the turn and river.

if the flop is scarry and someone bets into it heavily (after already calling my agg pre-flop raise/reraise), I'll most likely fold.

this is what phil helmuth's book recommends anyways.


----------



## Mehm

also, i'm on pokerstars now..pretty good site if anyone is interested in a heads up.


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## alasdairm

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> When I play JJ I just don't let myself get attached to it.


that's a good way to put it.

we touched on the 'playing to win' mindset earlier in the thread and i've really been trying to bear this in mind.

i've been analysing my online game over the past couple of days and i've started winning again. i realised that i would focus and play to win for about 80% of the time, then i would implode and go out on the bubble time after time. i was basically losing patience. now i've refocused and have been commiting to the game 100% of the length of the game and i'm back on track. sounds naive but it's easily done.

poker aphorism

 - an ace on the board can be as useful when you don't have one in your hand as when you do

again, i know this seems naive but a lot of people starting out, when they see an ace come on the board immediately think "_s/he has an ace_" when as often as not, they don't. set yourself up for success by thinking more positively.



alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Hey alasdairm do you mostly play SNG's or MTT's?


----------



## alasdairm

i play mostly single table, six-seat sit 'n' gos. once in a while, i'll play a multi-table (say 18 or 20 or 30 seat) sit 'n' go.

once in a while, i'll play a multi-table tournament with anywhere between 100 and 1000 players. my best finish is first place in a pokerstars $5 mtt which netted me about $360.

alasdair


----------



## alasdairm

alasdairm said:
			
		

> once in a while, i'll play a multi-table tournament with anywhere between 100 and 1000 players.


i just got done with an ultimatebet 100-seat 'mini' tournament:






i've been taking a long look at my game and have really focused on some weaknesses. it's already paying off with the win above and i took third in a $40 casino tourney last night.



alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

I can't even read the message Alasdairm how much did you walk away with?

In my tourney news I played in only my 3rd MTT and placed 18th out of 360 people and took home 82 dollars on stars.


----------



## alasdairm

vB resized it - just click on it and you'll see it more clearly 

i got $142.50 for 3 hours work 

alasdair


----------



## fozzy nutz

so i was watching re-runs of the ws my question was what is the policy of showing your cards? i'm talking about the hand when jamie gold flashed a jack and there was a potential straight out there if he was playing J/9...  i always thought that this mucked his hand. in fact i remember a hand this year when someone exposed one card on accident offered to play the hand with everyone knowing what that card was... a tournament director was called over and he ruled that the hand had to be mucked.


----------



## Diego Blunt

i had a rude awakening last week when playing (pot-limit hold 'em) at the Bellagio ... i rated myself as a pretty strong online and small-town player, but i basically got destroyed in Vegas. Lost my first $100 in blinds alone and had to buy-in twice more before i realised that it was a different style of game ... for some reason i just didn't have the balls to play my natural game ... i was constantly folding winning hands and was very dissapointed with my efforts ... that said, in 8+ hours of poker, i only had one pocket pair (9's) and only got Ace/King twice (both unsuited), so maybe i can blame the cards 

congrats alasdair!


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## thizzSantaCruz

fozzy nutz said:
			
		

> so i was watching re-runs of the ws my question was what is the policy of showing your cards? i'm talking about the hand when jamie gold flashed a jack and there was a potential straight out there if he was playing J/9...  i always thought that this mucked his hand. in fact i remember a hand this year when someone exposed one card on accident offered to play the hand with everyone knowing what that card was... a tournament director was called over and he ruled that the hand had to be mucked.



I was always under the impression that you could reveal your cards at any time and the hand will play on.  I have seen people use this strategy in brick and mortar games when they are contemplating a call.  They show their opponenet their hand and gauge their reaction.  Untill they verbally announce their action or physically shove chips into the pot they have not acted yet.

The situation with the revealed card mentioned above most likely happened preflop when hands are being dealt.  This might change the situation.


----------



## alasdairm

^ yep - i don't think it's against the rules to show your cards. the casino i play at (indeed most i think) have a "show one show all" policy so you can't just show your cards to one player. also, win or lose, you cannot show only one card. if you turn one, you have to turn the other.

last week i had about $40 in my online account. today i have $280. i put it down to the following:

 - patience

 - properly playing position

that's a nice poker alliteration 

alasdair


----------



## fozzy nutz

yea but this was in the middle of the hand... i think it was allowed because they were heads up


----------



## alasdairm

like i said: "i don't think it's against the rules to show your cards"



alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

Another etiquette question:

Live game. I'm out of the hand. I make a comment about what another player is holding. I'm guessing (obviously). Afterwards, he tells me off for giving away his hand and costing him some winnings.

Was I in the wrong? I think it would have been OK if I'd been involved in the hand - trying to work out what he's holding from his reaction to my comments, a la Dan Negreanu. But given that I was out of the hand, was it a breach of etiquette?

(We play a fairly casual game, low stakes, lots of breaks for people to smoke dope, lots of weird-ass games that we invented ourselves).


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

It definantly would be OK if you were in the hand.  I am not sure about if you have folded though.  I used to do stuff like this a lot when I first started playing but I realized that a lot of people get upset by it.  Now I just think about it in my head.  Plus if you start getting real good at reading people you do not want the other players to know you have this ability.


----------



## uacvax

the intimidation factor wouldn't be too offset by their knowledge of your newfound skill

but even though it was a casual game you had nothing to lose by calling out their hands while they did, so i would say that it isn't "proper etiquettte"


----------



## alasdairm

Sim0n said:
			
		

> Another etiquette question:
> 
> Live game. I'm out of the hand. I make a comment about what another player is holding. I'm guessing (obviously). Afterwards, he tells me off for giving away his hand and costing him some winnings.
> 
> Was I in the wrong? I think it would have been OK if I'd been involved in the hand - trying to work out what he's holding from his reaction to my comments, a la Dan Negreanu. But given that I was out of the hand, was it a breach of etiquette?


i'd say it was a breach of basic etiquette - if you're not in the hand, don't discuss it at the table at all.

alasdair


----------



## fozzy nutz

i agree completely... if you not in the hand don't make on comments on it. think about the last ws when madeso and the shiek got in to it. for me this also includes after the flop (at house games) going into the muck to look at cards you folded because obviously you got a peice of the flop.


as for daniel negreanu calling out hands you'll notice it is NEVER when he's not in the hand. also i can not ever remember when he does when he is not heads up. it is very poor form to walk through a hand when there is two or three other people in the hand.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

I have been on a pretty bad downswing the last couple of weeks but this turned around with a session tonite.  I want to thank mehm for bringing up the idea of playing even though he didn't sit down and shred Stars 50NL with me.

Some memorable hands from the 150 hand session.


POKERSTARS GAME #7674791162:  HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/12/30 - 03:30:15 (ET)
Table 'Discovery' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: dollar79 ($115.60 in chips) 
Seat 2: thizzSC ($46.25 in chips) 
Seat 3: convariance ($66.10 in chips) 
Seat 4: junkiesue ($77.50 in chips) 
Seat 5: tommyboy4747 ($24.40 in chips) 
Seat 6: craftypool ($43.85 in chips) 
Seat 7: eyesonly003 ($50.75 in chips) 
Seat 8: pasalon ($26.50 in chips) 
Seat 9: muckrd19 ($21.85 in chips) 
dollar79: posts small blind $0.25
thizzSC: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thizzSC [Kc Kh]
convariance: folds 
convariance leaves the table
junkiesue: raises $1 to $1.50
tommyboy4747: folds 
craftypool: folds 
eyesonly003: folds 
pasalon: folds 
muckrd19: folds 
dollar79: folds 
thizzSC: raises $4 to $5.50
junkiesue: raises $4 to $9.50
thizzSC: raises $36.75 to $46.25 and is all-in
junkiesue: calls $36.75
*** FLOP *** [9d 5h Ah]
*** TURN *** [9d 5h Ah] [4s]
*** RIVER *** [9d 5h Ah 4s] [5c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
thizzSC: shows [Kc Kh] (two pair, Kings and Fives)
junkiesue: mucks hand 
thizzSC collected $89.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $92.75 | Rake $3 
Board [9d 5h Ah 4s 5c]
Seat 1: dollar79 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: thizzSC (big blind) showed [Kc Kh] and won ($89.75) with two pair, Kings and Fives
Seat 3: convariance folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: junkiesue mucked [Js Jd]
Seat 5: tommyboy4747 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: craftypool folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: eyesonly003 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: pasalon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: muckrd19 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

POKERSTARS GAME #7674903356:  HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/12/30 - 03:45:05 (ET)
Table 'Iva V' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: averoes ($65.10 in chips) 
Seat 2: luke1403 ($60.55 in chips) 
Seat 3: thizzSC ($52.05 in chips) 
Seat 5: Playmaker66 ($20.15 in chips) 
Seat 6: will tilt ($48.50 in chips) 
Seat 7: theesherriff ($32 in chips) 
Seat 8: WS6Mark ($19.55 in chips) 
Seat 9: BRAYS23 ($31 in chips) 
Playmaker66: posts small blind $0.25
will tilt: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thizzSC [Qd Qh]
theesherriff: raises $0.50 to $1
WS6Mark: folds 
BRAYS23: calls $1
averoes: calls $1
luke1403: folds 
thizzSC: raises $4 to $5
Playmaker66: folds 
will tilt: folds 
theesherriff: raises $4 to $9
BRAYS23: folds 
averoes: folds 
thizzSC: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [7h 3c Qc]
danschu25 joins the table at seat #4 
theesherriff: bets $2
thizzSC: raises $19 to $21
theesherriff: raises $2 to $23 and is all-in
thizzSC: calls $2
*** TURN *** [7h 3c Qc] [7s]
*** RIVER *** [7h 3c Qc 7s] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
theesherriff: shows [Kh Ah] (a pair of Sevens)
thizzSC: shows [Qd Qh] (a full house, Queens full of Sevens)
thizzSC collected $63.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $66.75 | Rake $3 
Board [7h 3c Qc 7s Td]
Seat 1: averoes folded before Flop
Seat 2: luke1403 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: thizzSC (button) showed [Qd Qh] and won ($63.75) with a full house, Queens full of Sevens
Seat 5: Playmaker66 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: will tilt (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: theesherriff showed [Kh Ah] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 8: WS6Mark folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: BRAYS23 folded before Flop

POKERSTARS GAME #7675299313:  HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/12/30 - 04:46:27 (ET)
Table 'Rosa IV' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: T_S_Venture ($45.65 in chips) 
Seat 2: BruitdeFond ($28 in chips) 
Seat 3: ghost beef ($63.85 in chips) 
Seat 4: stacker99 ($12 in chips) 
Seat 5: wildwest21 ($66.75 in chips) 
Seat 6: tilted fish ($49.75 in chips) 
Seat 7: youngtory ($70.15 in chips) 
Seat 8: thizzSC ($59.90 in chips) 
Seat 9: Toke$ter ($119.10 in chips) 
BruitdeFond: posts small blind $0.25
ghost beef: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to thizzSC [Qd As]
stacker99: folds 
wildwest21: raises $1.50 to $2
tilted fish: folds 
youngtory: folds 
thizzSC: raises $5 to $7
Toke$ter: folds 
T_S_Venture: folds 
BruitdeFond: folds 
ghost beef: folds 
wildwest21: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [9h 3c 6h]
wildwest21: bets $2
thizzSC: calls $2
*** TURN *** [9h 3c 6h] [Ts]
wildwest21: bets $2
thizzSC: raises $10 to $12
wildwest21: folds 
thizzSC collected $21.70 from pot
thizzSC: doesn't show hand 
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $22.75 | Rake $1.05 
Board [9h 3c 6h Ts]
Seat 1: T_S_Venture (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: BruitdeFond (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: ghost beef (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: stacker99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: wildwest21 folded on the Turn
Seat 6: tilted fish folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: youngtory folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: thizzSC collected ($21.70)
Seat 9: Toke$ter folded before Flop (didn't bet)


----------



## zzITCHY420zz

*poker question*

flop comes 9c, 2d, and 4d. 

which hand would u prefer? ace of diamonds and a 3 of diamonds, or a 3 5 of diamonds?


----------



## Infinite Jest

A3, because I've got the nut flush draw. The only hand I have to fear is someone holding 36 hitting a 5 (not the 5D) to make a straight and counterfeit mine.

Any D hits: I win with the nut flush. 
5 hits, I win with the straight unless someone has 36. In which case I punch them in the nuts for playing a hand like that.
Ace hits, I may have the best hand but I play cautiously.
Nothing hits, there's still a chance that my A high is good. I don't bet out unless I have a sure read that people will fold, but I might take the hand if everyone checks.

Whereas with 35, I have a better chance of hitting the straight, but I might hit the flush and still lose to someone playing Ax suited. 

Love to hear what others think.


----------



## Infinite Jest

My own question:

What do you guys think about limping with monster hands? I always thought it was a dumb idea, but the last game I played I had separate players limp with KK and AA. The AA was especially strange as it was a short handed table (down to last 4, 3 get paid) and the blinds were quite high (it was basically me and this guy battling to make the money).

Does it make sense to you to limp in that situation? I'd have been pushing the money in and hoping to get a caller....(I had about 6x the BB and he had about 8 x BB. I limped in the blind with T(, hit the T on the flop and bet out, and of course AA held up).


----------



## zzITCHY420zz

it'll happen (limping with a monster), but if i'm in a relatively shitty spot, or under the gun i'll of course bump it up to push out unnecessary pplayers.


----------



## Raving Loony

Sim0n said:
			
		

> A3, because I've got the nut flush draw. The only hand I have to fear is someone holding 36 hitting a 5 (not the 5D) to make a straight and counterfeit mine.
> 
> Any D hits: I win with the nut flush.
> 5 hits, I win with the straight unless someone has 36. In which case I punch them in the nuts for playing a hand like that.
> Ace hits, I may have the best hand but I play cautiously.
> Nothing hits, there's still a chance that my A high is good. I don't bet out unless I have a sure read that people will fold, but I might take the hand if everyone checks.
> 
> Whereas with 35, I have a better chance of hitting the straight, but I might hit the flush and still lose to someone playing Ax suited.
> 
> Love to hear what others think.



It depends on the number of people on the table.  If it were a full table I'd take the A,3d.  If it had dwindled down to five, I'll take an inside straight flush draw on the flop any day.


----------



## Raving Loony

Sim0n said:
			
		

> My own question:
> 
> What do you guys think about limping with monster hands? I always thought it was a dumb idea, but the last game I played I had separate players limp with KK and AA. The AA was especially strange as it was a short handed table (down to last 4, 3 get paid) and the blinds were quite high (it was basically me and this guy battling to make the money).
> 
> Does it make sense to you to limp in that situation? I'd have been pushing the money in and hoping to get a caller....(I had about 6x the BB and he had about 8 x BB. I limped in the blind with T(, hit the T on the flop and bet out, and of course AA held up).



If it is early on in the game when people tend to play chip tight and not go out straight away I will raise it up a little more if I am completely out of position to avoid scaring people from not parting with their chips.  If I am dealer, SB or BB I will choose to raise it much more to kill off those people with just connectors, suited or otherwise.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Limping monsters in cash games is a very bad idea, unless a very aggressive player is acting after you.  Even then I would not think it is too great of an idea.

In a tournament when it is down to the last couple of people sometimes I will limp a monster to throw my betting patterns off.  I know the hand will not have a lot of players in it because there isnt that many left.  Also when the final table dwindles down a lot of people are raising with A high or K high so most likely someone will raise and I can call or reraise depending on the situation.


----------



## alasdairm

zzITCHY420zz said:
			
		

> flop comes 9c, 2d, and 4d.
> 
> which hand would u prefer? ace of diamonds and a 3 of diamonds, or a 3 5 of diamonds?


it's really hard to answer questions like this without knowing how many players, what's gone, etc.

based on the information you give, i'd take the A3 any time - it's roughly 20% more likely to win.

alasdair


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

zzITCHY420zz said:
			
		

> flop comes 9c, 2d, and 4d.
> 
> which hand would u prefer? ace of diamonds and a 3 of diamonds, or a 3 5 of diamonds?




I would take the Ad 3d.  3d 5d is a monster draw but if someone has a better flush you are going to lose a lot of money.  In cash games if I have the nut flush draw and an overcard I like jamming the pot.  I will reraise any bet pretty much with that hand.


----------



## alasdairm

check out this board in a game i played today:






i've seen 3 aces on a board but never 4. i made a modest raise pre-flop and got two callers. when the flop came, i threw out another modest bet to try to narrow it down a bit. one folded, one called. when the turn brought another ace i checked. the river was irrelevant and i knew i couldn't lose - i didn't move all-in but put in a decent bet, putting the other player all in. the other player thought about it for ages before calling. we split the pot with a K each.

it's not at all clear to me why the other player took so long to call. i wonder if they were just inexperienced and though there may be some way they could still lose which they hadn't yet thought of...

one of the benefits of online play, to me, is that i see so many hands that, both online and moreso in real life, i never have to think about what i have, what my outs are, etc. - it's automatic. i can concentrate on other aspects of the game.

alasdair


----------



## uacvax

mabe he thought you had a doyle brunson


----------



## alasdairm

i wonder... do you think he didn't realise that wouldn't make any difference?

anyway, it's about an hour later. 470 players have been eliminated, there are 87 players left and i'm in 9th place. wish me luck 

alasdair


----------



## Infinite Jest

Good luck...what are the prizes/how many places paid? (And can we watch? What site?)


----------



## fozzy nutz

Originally Posted by zzITCHY420zz
flop comes 9c, 2d, and 4d. 

which hand would u prefer? ace of diamonds and a 3 of diamonds, or a 3 5 of diamonds?


peronally i'm taking the A/3 every single time. why? because with it there are 10 cards that gives you the nuts plus you have 3 aces out there that could help you. if you are playing the 3/5 you have 2 cards that gives you the nuts and 6 cards that gives you a great hand problem is if you hit the straight on the turn you have to worry about someone drawing out on you with a higher flush on the river. things like you opponents being pot commited, pot odds or facing the chip leader may make it impossible foryou to stop them from seeing the river. plus what the fuck do you do if any other diamond hits but the a or 6. playing the 3/5 in that spot is a good way to lose all your money.


limping in with a monster is a risky moving. usually i'm doing in two spots and only if the table is short handed. the first one is if i short stacked, first to act and going all-in no matter what. i'll limp hoping someone puts me all-in if not after the flop i push. i will also do this if i'm the chip leader late in the hand looking at the button, sm and bb if its a un-opened pot i'll limp (trying to show weakness) hoping someone pushes.


----------



## alasdairm

Sim0n said:
			
		

> Good luck...what are the prizes/how many places paid? (And can we watch? What site?)


thanks. i play at ultimate bet.

it's nearly over - 42 left, i'm in 7th. it pays 60 places and 1st place is over $400. buy-in was only $3.

later...

finished in 15th place out of about 600. not bad. last hand sucked of course... 

alasdair


----------



## Blowmonkey

lol, I finally figured out how to play tournaments on pokerstars and played 2 yesterday. Finished 456th out of 10.000 in my first and  50th out of 5000 IIRC in my second. Not too bad if I say so myself. 

I got dealt a shitload of pocket queens and only won one out of 5 times heads up, that's what killed me both times, pretty frustrating really. 

2 royals and 3 four of a kinds though.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Can you describe the hands that you lost with pocket queens heads up?  If you are only winning 1/5 times you might have a leak in how you play large pocket pairs.


----------



## Raving Loony

I play a fair bit regional free rolling tournament poker and I consistently last a long time.  But I never do well at the final table.  The reason being is that the blinds are killers.  You may start out with 30 times the BB, but by the end your stack is only 3x the BB (on average) during the midway point of the final table with the big stack probably 6-7x.  So the problem is that there are just all ins coming in all over the place on A3, QJ before the flop.  I do my pot odd calculations on a A7 and it's like GTFO of this one.  So basically I get muscled out even if I am stacked quite well.  Any ideas?


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

You need to work on accumulating a big stack before the final table.  I like to start playing hyper-aggressive right before the money because a lot of people are trying to finish in the money and will not risk getting put out on the bubble.  As long as you have a decent sized stack going into the final table you should be in good shape.

As a rule of thumb if my stack is 10 big blinds or less I only have two moves, all in or fold.  When the final table is dwindling down you really need to widen up your range of playable hands and play very close attention to how your opponenets play.  You will need to pick up tendancies on opponenets betting patterns and use that to your advantage.  Steal blinds from weak players, check-raise overly aggressive players.

I hope this will help you out a bit.


----------



## Infinite Jest

I seem to do OK in those situations. As thizzSantaCruz says: all-in or fold. You have to consider whether the pot is unopened or not. e.g. if I have A7 and no-one has bet yet, I'm all-in. I'm probably a slight favourite, unless someone has a high pocket pair or a bigger ace, in which case, that's my bad luck. But it's usually worth the risk.

If someone else has bet, I probably fold, unless I'm short-stacked and in the blinds, in which case I might call.


----------



## Blowmonkey

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> Can you describe the hands that you lost with pocket queens heads up?  If you are only winning 1/5 times you might have a leak in how you play large pocket pairs.



Nah, that wasn't it. I made one wrong decision, I decided to slow play the queens a bit, everything was fine untill the river when a king came. I got one call with 2 aces, nothing wrong there either, but 2 times I got screwed over with 57 and 79 or so. I don't know why people decide to call a massive (all in) raise with low unsuited connectors. It really irks me.


----------



## Blowmonkey

Apparently I stink at Omaha. But it still recognizes me as a skilled player. :D


----------



## Infinite Jest

Awesome 

I feel like my play is getting better, but my results aren't. But I've worked out what the problems are:

1. Playing too many big(gish) tournaments. I'm doing OK, but not cashing, and it's costing me too much money. I don't have a big enough bankroll to spend on the big tournaments, even though I'll double or triple my bankroll if I win.
2. Need to concentrate more, and not go broke on weak hands, or where I'm obviously (or probably beat). For example - had 85s in the SB. Limped (I had 4 limpers before me). Flop was 875. I led out. Someone re-raised me all in. I figured him on A8 or something and called. Of course he had 64 for the straight and knocked me out. No need for me to be in the hand. Same thing when I had TT and two 8s came on the flop and I lost to J8. 

So my next game I tightened up. I lost a few hands to bluffs or quasi-bluffs, but ended up taking the guy down by playing back at him when I finally caught a hand. 

Concentration and (thanks Alasdairm, your comments above were very helpful) *patience*


----------



## Mehm

^^I don't think calling an all in with two pair on the flop is that bad.  You will beat the straight draw about 2 out of every three times.


----------



## Infinite Jest

^
True true - in this case he already had the straight, so I was drawing to 4 cards (for the full house). I was behind to a set, as well, of course. I guess I figured _I_ would have slowplayed in his position (he basically had the nuts, it was a rainbow flop so he was only losing to 96, or someone hitting runner-runner flush or drawing out to a higher straight). So I assumed he would have slowplayed if he really had me beat. 

Thanks for your comments though


----------



## Blowmonkey

> You will beat the straight draw about 2 out of every three times.



That's a little optimistic. I dunno the maths, but to me it seems it's more like 1 out of 6 times you beat the straight with 2 pair on the flop, unless they're suited and you've got one or two cards of the same suit on the flop as well, then it's a different story.



> Same thing when I had TT and two 8s came on the flop and I lost to J8.



How did you play that? Looks like your bet wasn't strong enough before the flop to get called by J8..(?)


----------



## Infinite Jest

Blowmonkey said:
			
		

> How did you play that?



Moronically 

Was on the button. 2 limpers before me, so I limped thinking to either hit a set or an overpair, and otherwise lay it down. I did have the overpair, but with two 8s on the board, I should have just stopped when he bet postflop. 

Of course, I should have definitely bet out preflop, J8 would probably have folded (if he didn't, then I would have outplayed him and he would have got lucky). I should have just gone for it, and if someone had a higher pair, or outdrew me with AK-AJ, so be it.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

Blowmonkey said:
			
		

> That's a little optimistic. *I dunno the maths,* but to me it seems it's more like 1 out of 6 times you beat the straight with 2 pair on the flop, unless they're suited and you've got one or two cards of the same suit on the flop as well, then it's a different story.



Yo, if you don't know the math, get Pokerstove - it's free and invaluable.  Also, there are tools that will count outs and give you odds _while you play_.  Not using them is like throwing money away.  And you'll get a better feel for the math off the top of your head when you play live.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

Sim0n said:
			
		

> 1. Playing too many big(gish) tournaments. I'm doing OK, but not cashing, and it's costing me too much money. I don't have a big enough bankroll to spend on the big tournaments, even though I'll double or triple my bankroll if I win.



Just kinda jumpin' in here, but why not try the multi-table Sit n Go's?  I didn't see what site you're playing on, but Stars has 2-3 and 5 table SnG's that are very beatable at all buy-in levels (down to $1.50+.25!) and are a good way to build a roll.  Full Tilt has some similar ones as well.

I'm up for swapping hands and referrals, so feel free to get in touch.  I play for a living (but not a good living!    )


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Yippe you play ring, SNG's or donkaments?


----------



## Yippee Skippy

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> Yippe you play ring, SNG's or donkaments?



I play mainly multi-table SnG's.  I stay away from the HUGE field MTT's.  I won't fuck with a tourney with more than 300 people unless it's got a sick overlay or some other very special reason.  

I play some ring games too, mainly to clear bonuses (I whore a bit, so that's usually the only/fastest way to get that $$).  I play a bit of Pot-Limit Omaha when I can, but only in cash games, I haven't quite got the knack of how it translates to tournies yet.

I hit a horrific downswing in about the last 10 days of December, but I had just picked up a part-time job to help w/holiday expenses, so it was good timing (if there is such a thing).  I just finished the job last Friday, so I'm back to the grind.  

I play mainly lower stakes because it's hard to keep building a roll when you're constantly withdrawing to buy stuff like food, gas, cable (gotta keep the 'net on ya know!) but I keep my head above water.  I think I'm gonna start dabbling in some more satellites so I can get into some bigger games with minimum investment.  Hollywood Poker had a pretty good satellite system I was just starting to exploit pretty well before they banned US players.  I haven't found a similar deal yet.

So, that's me.  Thanks for asking!


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Yea no problem.  Do you know what your ROI is for SNG's?  

Also a hint try bonus whoring bodog.  50 dollar max bonus is not that imressive but its very easy to clear and bodog is very soft.  The only problem is poker tracker won't work with it unless you purchas a 3rd party program called dogwatch hand grabber.  If you are bonus whoring it is not worth buying but it might prevent you from running multiple tables efficiently.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

Unfortunately, my #'s from SnG's are skewed from playing multi-table games, especially the 10 tablers on Tilt and the 20 tablers on Stars.  My "main site" isn't supported by Sharkscope, but I'll post this to give you an idea (small sample size, obv.)

(image gone on purpose)

I used to whore the Bodog on a regular basis.  The "Beginner's" $4.40 Sit n Go's are crazy easy to make money in because they pay top 5!  It's not a great return, but it's practically guaranteed money, plus you clear your bonus with relatively low-risk.  I don't know what I'm gonna do w/Bodog or most of my other sites now that Neteller's gone though.  I'm kinda screwed in that department.  FUCK!!  I've been very depressed all day because of it.  I don't know what I'm gonna do. 

I can't PM yet, but if you want to email HH's to me, I'm definitely up for it.  As far as bonuses go, I'm really on top of them, so if you want advice on some quick, easy hit n' run stuff, lemme know (unless you're a rakeback guy, which you forgo on a lot of those types of bonuses.)  

Oh, and I'm loathe to give up the name of my "main site" 'cause it's very small and I have crazy data on nearly every tourney player there (only about 500ish regulars).  I hate givin' up this fishing hole, ya know?


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Yea the neteller thing sucks.  I am not too worried about depositing because I have enough money in my bankroll that I should probably never have to re-deposit, all though I am in a ridiculously bad down swing right now.  My problem is I need to find a site to consolidate all my money in because transfering funds will be pretty difficult.  The main thing that worries me now is that the fish are going to have a much harder time redopisiting their funds and this will probably discourage them from playing.

I myself am not a big tourney player at all.  I have played probably 3 online MTT's throughout about 2 years of online play.  Cash games are my forte.  Had a nice live game going on last nite.  We had 3 tables of 9 people each but the nite did not turn out so good.  Got stacked with a set over set, and got stacked again to a newbie to the game that was playing pretty loose-aggro when I ran into top two with my TPTK.

I got another game happening tonite but of pretty small stakes.  Hopefully I can turn it around.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> My problem is I need to find a site to consolidate all my money in because transfering funds will be pretty difficult.



If you're mainly playing cash games and you're not interested in moving money around often, then you really should get an account that pays you rakeback.  If you've never had a Full Tilt account, then I'd recommend you get one with rakeback.  Full Tilt has good game selection, lots of players at almost all hours and is very reliable.  If you don't know how to get rakeback I can point you to an affiliate.

The Neteller thing is just a huge inconvenience.  I'll figure something out soon, but I doubt it'll be as efficient.  Add that to the fact that I don't have an active bank account (I had been withdrawing with my Neteller card) and I'm really going to have some trouble.

Plus I just got stacked by an idiot who called a large raise w/K8soooooooooooted and hit trips on the flop, while I had TPTK.  Really, I know I should be happy he made that stupid call, but it still hurts - maybe more than usual today.

Are you in Santa Cruz?  I'm in FL.


----------



## zzITCHY420zz

guys..anybody have any rules/tips/moderation techniques for going to a casino? i enjoy the 1-3 NL tables, but i also enjoy playing blackjack, vid poker etc. i'm not planning on going again any time soon (just dropped 175$ ) but i'd love to hear good ideas . what i found was fun, was to play video poker at an attempt to make a bigger bankroll. unfortunately it totally didn't work today.


----------



## zzITCHY420zz

oh crap..i should add this. 

when i'm playing hold'em , i tend to "buy" a round (pay that 4$ BB+SB) of 10 hands, , meaning ill fold so many hands. however, although this might NOT be biting me in the ass, i find that it does. i am not a pro, however i can do the whole  math thing ,  but what really bugs me is the fact taht EVERYONE calls..i know there's so much dead $ in the pots, but i assume (correctly) that there are tons of  sharks out there ready to make you sad. please give me some tips  guys, i'm basically saying that i'm a tight player (at the casino), and i'd like some info to break through that "casino phobia" feeling.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

> what really bugs me is the fact taht EVERYONE calls..i know there's so much dead $ in the pots, but i assume (correctly) that there are tons of sharks out there ready to make you sad. please give me some tips guys



If everyone is seeing a flop you can see more yourself - IN POSITION - with playable cards.  78 suited is great from Late Position if there's a lot of money in the pot.  K2o not so much.  If you flop a monster you can get paid.  If you don't, let it go and watch what the donkeys are doing.

When you have a BIG hand in early position you need to raise - for value and to thin the field.  I usually go 3x the big blind + 1 bb for every limper.  Sometimes I'll go 4x + 1 bb for every limper if I see everyone is still coming along.  With a big hand in Late Position and a table full of limpers it might be correct to just shove 'em all in, but that mainly depends on stack sizes.  If you've got 12bb's in your stack then insta-shove.  If you've got 120bb's then I'd probably use the 4x+1bb guideline.

 I don't subscribe to the notion that you should always raise the same amount to disguise the strength of your hand.  I mix things up as a way of deception.  Sometimes I open for 3x w/AA and sometimes I open for 3x w/JJ. Go 2.5bb's sometimes too (I guess you can't do exactly that if the BB is $3, but I bet you catch my drift).  

I can't comment on the "buying a round" thing because I haven't had any experience with it.  As you might've guessed, I'm more of an online player, but have been trying to add more live games.  Unfortunately in Florida there casinos can't have NL games, so I'm limited.  I know a few home games and still mainly play tournaments though, so I'm getting them in the mix.

Good luck, and feel free to post particular hands (try to get all the details you remember:  stack sizes, your position, the villain's position, reads on the players and how you think they perceive you) and I'd be happy to comment, as I bet others will too.  Or you could just PM/email them to me.  I might do the same.


----------



## zzITCHY420zz

my biggest "bad play" in my opinion, which didnt happen last night, was when i had AK suited, on the button or small blind. including me, 4 ppl were left in the pot, with the blinds at 1-3 raised to 10$ (by me after 2 limpers). BB folds, other two call. flop comes A 10 7 rainbow. i check, and the dude that i was most intimidated by on the table bets a cool 20$ (which ANNOYS ME!! 20 FRREAKIN DOLLAR BETS? WTOUWF). i fold after a small hesitation. i know. it was a stupid play. good thing the other player went all in (short stacked), saw teh 20$ raisers cards (AQ suited), and he caught a queen on the river. guaranteed this guy would've called any bet i would put in, he was one of those guys who played 1-3 tables as if they were nickel slots.


----------



## zzITCHY420zz

video poker question - regular rules, no wilds etc. u get dealt a low pair, and say a JQK suited. would hold the high suited cards  (jacks and higher = better pay), or hold the pair hoping for trips/twopair etc?


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

i dont play video poker so i dont know.   IMHO video poker is pretty much a losing propisition.  

In your above post a 20 dollar bet into a 42 pot is actually pretty small.  With top pair top kicker that is a call/raise situation.  If you checked into the player I would definantly raise at that point.  Check-calling isn't usually a good idea.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

zzITCHY420zz said:
			
		

> had AK suited, on the button or small blind.



Big difference here.  With the button and position, you can raise less because you'll have position throughout the hand, but in the SB you'll be first to act on all betting rounds.  That's a HUGE disadvantage.  I'd want to end the hand pre-flop really.



> including me, 4 ppl were left in the pot, with the blinds at 1-3 raised to 10$ (by me after 2 limpers).



I would've made it $15 on the button, $20-$25 from the SB here.  You priced in the limpers for sure (not _necessarily_ a bad thing from the button.)



> flop comes A 10 7 rainbow. i check



Not awful if you're planning to check-raise.  Good to mix it up sometimes.



> and the dude that i was most intimidated by on the table bets a cool 20$ (which ANNOYS ME!! 20 FRREAKIN DOLLAR BETS? WTOUWF). i fold after a small hesitation.



Ok, so you WERE in the SB if you checked first.  But what happened?  You checked, the other caller bet $20 and the shorty pushed?  I would repush there to isolate without a sick read that the $20 bettor had a set (you seem to think he was a donkey w/too much money, right?).




> saw teh 20$ raisers cards (AQ suited), and he caught a queen on the river. guaranteed this guy would've called any bet i would put in, he was one of those guys who played 1-3 tables as if they were nickel slots.



So you think he would've called no matter how much you bet if you hadn't checked first?  And probably would've called if you had shoved instead of folding to the shorty push?  

I guess that's lucky you folded and I hope you used that information to relieve him of his surplus chips for the rest of the session.  

As far as Video Poker goes, I have a friend who is a slot-machine tech on the casino boats in my area here and he says that with "perfect-play" they are the most profitable games out there.

Here's a link to a good site that could help you learn perfect play:
Wizard of Odds

I wish I knew how to play that Video Poker hand you mentioned.  Not being sure of what to do there is one of the reasons I suck at 5-Card Draw so much!


----------



## L2R

and he says poker? and so i says second opinion! :D


----------



## Infinite Jest

Liquor in the front; poker in Second Opinion.


----------



## sgurd

Yippee Skippy said:
			
		

> ...Also, there are tools that will count outs and give you odds _while you play_.  Not using them is like throwing money away.  And you'll get a better feel for the math off the top of your head when you play live.


^^ What tools are you talking about specifically? :D 

Also what program do you all use to keep track of your played hands? 
Pokertracker or another one? (55$ seems like a lot to pay for such a program).

I've also got a question concerning starting hands:

All over the net I read that hand selection is key to a good game of poker but to me  it seems like there are many situations where playing a lot hands is actually better(lose play). For instance when the blinds are 100x the BB and your in rather late position or the table is pretty tight. 
What about in large tourneys where the blinds are 20x the BB and you have to double up fast to get a chance of winning? (once your stack gets larger the blinds get relatively smaller even). I tend to see a lot of the flops (most) in these situations(where there is no substantial raise).

We all know the feeling of throwing a half decent hand away only to have it come out as a sure winner after the flop... so why not check if its so cheap?

I see a LOT of people fold in these games and I must admit Im not really a great player, I also don't play very often but can't help to think there are quite a few situations where it's good to call very often. (taking position and previous raises etc. into account). 

Is there a flaw in my thinking? Am I playing the wrong games? 
Am I just playing to lose by playing too loose?


----------



## Yippee Skippy

sgurd said:
			
		

> ^^ What tools are you talking about specifically? :D
> 
> Also what program do you all use to keep track of your played hands?
> Pokertracker or another one? (55$ seems like a lot to pay for such a program).



$55 is NOT a lot of money in the long run.  It'll pay for itself in a week.  Probably less.  Also, you can get it for free for just depositing into a poker site through an affiliate.  I'd be happy to point you to one if you would like me to.  PokerTracker by itself is a great tool, but to get the maximum use out of it I would definitely recommend you get Poker Ace Heads Up Display (often referred to as PAHUD) also.  You can score that through various affiliates too.



> I've also got a question concerning starting hands:
> 
> All over the net I read that hand selection is key to a good game of poker but to me  it seems like there are many situations where playing a lot hands is actually better(lose play). For instance when the blinds are 100x the BB and your in rather late position or the table is pretty tight.



You're definitely on the right track with that.  Position is the most important weapon you have at the table.  If you can see a cheap flop with a playable hand, especially early in a tourney, then you should go for it - if you have the right odds.  I mean 78s on the button with 4 limpers ahead of you is great.  If you hit the flop real well, you could take a nice pot.  But you have to hit the flop pretty hard (2pr or better).  So that 78s with one early position limper and you in late position isn't nearly as valuable.  _Presumably,_ someone who open limps UTG, or UTG+1 has a pretty big hand (I know, at low stakes they could have any garbage.  You'll figure out who the donkeys are soon enough though) so a button raise might not be wise.  However, if you've realized that the table's tight then raise it up and hope to take it pre-flop.  Also, the limper might have a hand that needs to hit the flop pretty hard to be good and you'll have position for the rest of the hand if you get called.  The point is - you're basically right, I'm just explaining why you're right, ya know?




> What about in large tourneys where the blinds are 20x the BB and you have to double up fast to get a chance of winning? (once your stack gets larger the blinds get relatively smaller even). I tend to see a lot of the flops (most) in these situations(where there is no substantial raise).
> 
> We all know the feeling of throwing a half decent hand away only to have it come out as a sure winner after the flop... so why not check if its so cheap?
> 
> I see a LOT of people fold in these games and I must admit Im not really a great player, I also don't play very often but can't help to think there are quite a few situations where it's good to call very often. (taking position and previous raises etc. into account).
> 
> Is there a flaw in my thinking? Am I playing the wrong games?
> Am I just playing to lose by playing too lose?



I think what you meant was in tournies when you have 20bb's in your stack?  Well the same thing applies here - play KTs on the button if it's cheap.  And use position to pick up an orphan pot if everyone (including you) misses.  Also, later in the game stealing becomes a vital way to pick up chips, so it you're in late position with QJs go ahead and raise 2.5-3xbb and hope to pick up the blinds.  If you realize the blinds are particularly tight than you can do that with worse hands.  20bb's late in a tourney is very healthy.    As mentioned earlier in the thread, if you have 12 or less bb's though you should be pushing all-in or folding.  There's no room to play poker.  Just picking up blinds and antes can increase your stack by like 15% (at least).

You definitely have the right idea though.  I would definitely suggest you pick up Harrington on Hold 'Em by Dan Harrington if you're mainly playing tournaments.  

And as always, if you want to swap hand histories or need bonus advice, PM/email me!


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Just got back from my weekly home game.  Hit kind of a mile stone today with over 1000 dollars in play (combined on 3 tables).  Wound up walking away with over triple my buy-in.  I made a couple of good plays along the way to overcame mostly shit hands throughout the nite.

In other news someone told me Stars is not cashing out through checks anymore so I need to get my money out ASAP.  Online poker is dead for me, I will be trying to play more live.  Rake can get brutal in the casinos unfortunately.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

thizzSantaCruz said:
			
		

> JIn other news someone told me Stars is not cashing out through checks anymore so I need to get my money out ASAP.



That is absolutely untrue.  Rumors at the poker table about online poker are usually way off base.  IMO that's because people who don't play online (or only play casually) hear part of the story and run with it, while someone who plays online seriously will take the time to research the rumor and get the facts.

From Stars site:



> Checks under $1,000 USD or the equivalent of $1,000.00 USD will be delivered by regular mail, and should arrive within 15 business days. Checks over $1,000 USD or the equivalent of $1,000.00 USD will delivered by courier and should arrive within 7 business days.



And I know several people who have received Stars checks this week.

A new payment processor like Neteller will fill that void soon enough.  You don't have to hang 'em up yet.



> Wound up walking away with over triple my buy-in. I made a couple of good plays along the way to overcame mostly shit hands throughout the nite.



That's the beauty of No Limit.  An entire session can be defined by 2-3 good hands.    Nice work!


----------



## zzITCHY420zz

i just gotback from a person's house that i know, and i left agitated . it was 20$ buy in, my friendwasthe dealer so he wouldbe taking a small amt fromthe pots. this was fine, as it was spot onwith casino style cash games. however, therewas the STUPIDEST catch. you have to play at LEAST TWO STUPID FUCKING HOURS. now, i know that's not a big deal,but i'm not willingto have to sit for 2 hours paying the dealer. what atsupid fucking rule, and what stupid fucking idiots (all over 21, im 18) to accept such a rule. i left, told everyone have fun paying vince, and gave myself a pat on the back for not playing in such an unfair game. can anyone give me opinions on this, and if it's a stupid ass rule to have a minimum 2hr playtime?


----------



## Mehm

^^our only rule of thumb on cash out is if you've just won a large pot, then you should play at least another rotation...unless you already informed everyone that you would be leaving soon.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

In our weekly game the dealer rotates with play and their is no rake.  It is pretty ludacris to have to pay a rake when it is not even a casino.  Now if it was a cardroom with a professional dealer, casino quality chips, and a felt table I would understand.  There is no reason for him to charge a rake against you guys, he is not using that money to pay for operational costs like a casino is.  Poker in this case is fun not a business.  I would have a serious discussion with your friend.

The 2 hour rule does seem pretty lame.  In our games you have to tell everyone you are leaving a half hour before you do.  Hit and runs are pretty uncommon, allthough last week we had someone call half an hour and then play for an hour and leave right after he tripled up.  It did not happen at the table I was playing at so I was unaffected, but he will be getting talked to next week if he shows up.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

I definitely think you did right by skipping that game.

How much was the dealer making per hand at those stakes?  Probably too much.  

It would've been better for everyone to split up a flat fee to pay the dealer if he was gonna deal all night.  Some casinos charge a "seat rental" fee like $8 every half-hour or so.  That will vary to some degree, but you get the idea.

If the dealer was playing though, then the whole thing is ridiculous.

Just bring a bag o' chips or a 6 pack of beer and try not to miss the toilet when you piss.  That' my Standard Operating Procedure at home games.

Me n' some friends played "League-Style" for 10 weeks.  Everyone put an extra dollar in every  week and after the 10 weeks was up the person with the most points (we played tournaments) got 1/2 the money and we bought pizza with the other half.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Agreed, rake will cause all low limit games to be a wash.  If the guys charging a rake and your playing a 20 buy in, if its the normal 10% up to 4 dollars that casinos use you will never be able to beat the rake.

Playing 50 max buy in ring games at Stars with a 5% up to 2 dollar rake (I think, not sure about those numbers but that is what i recall) takes half of my profit all ready.

Rake is no fun.


----------



## zzITCHY420zz

lol ok..rake is no fun right? but..rake+a TIME FUCKING LIMIT? WTF+BGOEAUFB . honestly, the time limit thing is the  biggest factor. 

also, cash games are cash games for a fucking reason. there should be no fucking  "hardcore reason" to want to leave the table. you play at your own pace, and that's that. sitting at a table for ANY (relatively high) time limit to play is fucking bullshit. it's a stressful factor..he was saying yea u just gota go all in blah blah. but wtf kinda reason is there to go all in for? none. unless u are tiltin cuz u gota leave czu ur dog got ran over and u gota go home, and can't help but give ur money away.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

Or if you have a set.  Then you probably should go all-in as well.


----------



## Infinite Jest

Unless you're playing me and I have TPTK, and call, and hit runner runner Aces for a bigger boat . To the guy's credit, he didn't abuse the hell out of me, which he should have.


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

update:  After withdrawing a bunch of my bankroll from online after the recent recession of online poker I have turned a new corner.

I dropped 1/2 of my remaining roll (around 450 dollars) on the bears and the under!


DA BEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Mehm

> I dropped 1/2 of my remaining roll (around 450 dollars) on the bears and the under!



woops


----------



## thizzSantaCruz

lol yea....but i pretty much broke even.  I lost the bears and the line but I won the under.


----------



## alasdairm

i was playing tonight in a home game - 14 players at two tables and we started with 500 in chips. blinds were low - perhaps 20/40.

one pot got down to two players and the shorter-stacked player moved all-in. there was about *600* in the pot. it would have cost the other player *15* more to call his all-in. she thought for over a minute and then she folded...

this game never ceases to surprise me 

alasdair


----------



## Yippee Skippy

That's a travesty.  But if it weren't for people that ignorant, it would be even harder to succeed at poker.


----------



## Infinite Jest

I've seen that happen a few times online Ali - never understood it. 

I organised a home game last weekend, was a lot of fun. I just wish I could get my friends to understand the concept of preflop raising - they were limping in even with AA, and then getting it cracked by the BB with Q4 or something. Or else they'd limp in with 82s.


----------



## alasdairm

is it just because we play so many hands online we seem to see so many crazy beats or is it really just that bad? how many appalling one- and two-outers do you see on a regular basis?

i thought i had seen it all recently until i saw this last night. i don't recall the amounts bet but it was down to heads up. also, the suits may be wrong but they don't matter in this scenario:

my friend has:









they both end up all in and the opponent has:









obviously my friend is feeling reasonably good. the flop comes:












giving my friend a full house, jacks full of threes. she's feeling pretty unbeatable now, right?

the turn and river come:


















giving the opponent quad threes with a higher kicker. what a miserable, miserable beat.

alasdair


----------



## naolssloan

Thats brutal...that 1 would sting for a bit!


----------



## Yippee Skippy

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  44  games     0.094 secs      468  games/sec

Board: 3c Jh 3d 3s
Dead:  

	equity 	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	02.273%  	02.27% 	00.00% 	             1 	        0.00   { QhTs }
Hand 1: 	97.727%  	97.73% 	00.00% 	            43 	        0.00   { JcJd }


Also, how do get those graphics for the Hand History?  I don't know where to find a Bluelight HH Converter, let me in on that secret, would ya?


----------



## alasdairm

Yippee Skippy said:
			
		

> Also, how do get those graphics for the Hand History?  I don't know where to find a Bluelight HH Converter, let me in on that secret, would ya?


just look at their properties and do the rest yourself 

alasdair


----------



## huntmich

So on FullTilt, I entered a satellite tournament today; 24+2 buyin, 90 players involved, top 4 get entries to the main event.  The main event is a yearly tournament hosted by Chris Ferguson, with  500+35$ buyin and a 1.5 Million guaranteed prizepool.  Well, I got 4th in the satellite, so tomorrow at 6, I have my opportunity to take a shot at a $275,000 first place prize.  The crazy thing is that as of right now, there are only 785 people signed up for the main event, and they are paying out 405 people.  I'm not sure if they overestimated demand for such a large tournie, and are paying off way more than they will get in entry fees, or if they are expecting a lot more people to sign up between now and tomorrow night.  

Either way, I'm pumped about it.  I'll have to let you guys know if I end up cashing big.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

Nice work.  As far as the guarantee goes, in the last few weeks since the Neteller fiasco, Full Tilt has had to cover the overlay out of their own pockets (although the fees, aka the rake, will go towards that prize pool too).  Bodog's guarantee tournaments often involve the site making up the difference too.

It'll sort itself out in the next couple of weeks as new payment processors become available.  And people will be trying very hard to satellite their way into that tourney all day tomorrow.

If you feel comfy posting your screen name, do so and I'll stop by for a sweat.

GL Buddy!


----------



## huntmich

I'm huntmich9741.  Feel free to drop in and make fun of a poor play that I make.


----------



## Yippee Skippy

I got home late and didn't see ya sittin' at any tables.

Got a good report?

How many runners?


----------



## huntmich

Nothing good to report, unfortunately.  It ended up being huge, 3200+.  I ended up losing with AK; I caught two pair on the flop, but ran into a guy who was slow playing a set of aces (He had pocket aces and didn't raise preflop, the prick).  So I  ended up losing at about 1600th place.  Disappointing, but it was fun while it lasted.


----------



## Infinite Jest

^
Pretty much every poker player in the world is going broke there, I'd bet. You're only losing to a set, and with you holding AK the chances of anyone else holding AA or KK are minimal, obviously. (And you'd expect them to have raised PF with those hands). I'd only be scared of running into a set of whatever the third card on the flop was.


----------



## pokergooch

cant believe it took me so long to post here, lol... Its pretty obv what im really into.. I have recently just went from semi pro to just pro, doesnt mean that im that good, it just means that I make most of my income from poker.

Anyway, I used to play a  lot online until that damn, stupid new law a year or two ago. I do a little bit but mainly just play cash and tourneys... 

Hope to see some of you at the tables....


----------



## SA

--> S&g


----------



## alasdairm

i just went to check the results for the world series of poker main event and was amazed to discover that it's down to the final nine and they're taking a break - *until november*!

it resumes on november 9th - 4 months from now. what on earth is that all about?

also, i've been rewatching some of the coverage of last year's main event and it's getting harder to watch. some great poker for sure but lots of stuff to get annoyed about.

*hevad kahn*'s clowning around. a bit of levity has never been a problem but he makes a mockery of the event.

also *jerry yang*'s constant praying to jesus christ to reveal his glory and show everybody his miracles by letting jerry win a hand! how is it not showing   his miracles by letting somebody else win a hand? it seems decidedly non-christian to me...



alasdair


----------



## Chaos Butterfly

^^

Yeah, Jerry Yang shat me to tears. God has nothing to fucking do with poker (nor anything else in my opinion )

CB.


----------



## johanneschimpo

I loved (and by loved I mean fucking hated) that hand with Jerry Yang and Lee Watkinson (I think it was Lee), where Watkinson was all in, and Yang is doing his prayer thing, while Watkinson's girlfriend was doing the same thing, praying on the sidelines "Please Lord show us your miracles" <-- that BS.
How fucking stupid. What was God to do in that situation, make it a split pot? LOL
Now matter what happens in that hand, He gets shit on by the person who loses ("I prayed and God didn't make my flush").
Praying has no fucking place in poker. Oh, I see CB just said that, but I'm going to stick with that anyway. Its true. No place for that. Play your cards, play the players, use your skill and hope for a little luck. No God, no prayer, no miracles.
[[end rant]]


----------



## stinkfoot

alasdairm said:
			
		

> i just went to check the results for the world series of poker main event and was amazed to discover that it's down to the final nine and they're taking a break - *until november*!
> 
> it resumes on november 9th - 4 months from now. what on earth is that all about?





apparently they are going to show the final table on live tv.

my theory is that it will be pay-per-view.


----------



## eDDe9

Lol pay-per-view poker haha

I do love it, but not something I'll get my mates round with some drinks to pay for and watch


I lost £50 the other day at the casino (private table though).. first ever cash game, £100 buy-in. Went down to £60 then won and went up to £165. Won a few more small pots to £210 then it started to trickle away as I had loads of big beats (I.e. going in with pair of jacks and loosing to a straight on the last card)


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## GuiltySpark

Anyone play razz? I've been having a LOT of fun playing that lately on pokerstars.


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## alasdairm

^ i prefer the elegant simplicity of no limit texas hold'em



alasdair


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## eDDe9

Pot limit is better

Especially for poor students like me


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## alasdairm

better how? it depends on your definition of better and personal preference.

there's nothing quite like the feeling of pushing all-in on a bluff and watching the better hands crumble.

i find, very generally speaking, people playing pot limit tend to chase, then they get so committed you can't bet them off a hand. no limit is beautiful - you don't have to have the best hand to win.

alasdair


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## Chaos Butterfly

At the moment I'm playing NLHE, 4 tables at a time 9 player sit and go's, $6+0.50 entry on pokerstars... it's going well... getting up and staying up (jeez, that sounds like a viagra commercial )

I've never really got into pot-limit... for similar reasons to alasdair... people chase... and it's those 1 in 4 to 1 in 10 chances when they actually hit and you get fucked over that really shit me to tears. You can control the game better in no limit I reckon... you can generally stop the possibility of people rivering you by not letting the hand GET to the river... sometimes this will mean that you don't take as much on the hand, but it also means that you won't get dicked on.

I'm quite interested in Razz, but haven't actually played it yet... if I do, I'll be doing it for play money first  get some sort of idea of what to do 

CB


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## eDDe9

Anyone like Omaha?


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## stinkfoot

eDDe9 said:
			
		

> Anyone like Omaha?




i play a weekly home game.

lately we've been playing alot of high-low omaha (cash game).

i gotta keep telling myself to not chase the low....which i've been doing too much of.

but last week i was unstoppable. i had one of those magical nights were i could not lose.

i still like hold 'em better though.

too much craziness in high-low omaha.


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## eDDe9

I didn't like omaha when I played it.. you could be dealt some amazing cards, but you're forced to only use 2 and 3 from the table

Too unpredictable for me


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## alasdairm

i'm watching the 2008 wsop h.o.r.s.e. final table. down to three players: scotty nguyen; erik lindgren; michael demichele.

i used to quite enjoy watching scotty nguyen and i had some respect for him but the way he's behaved this final table has been really disappointing. he' smaking classless comments, talking shit during hands he's not in and he's berating the other players for doing things he turns right round and does himself.

the prince of poker? not any more...

alasdair


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## stinkfoot

yeah, that was bad. he needs to lay off the beer a little.


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## Taylor Norris

lmao


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## Mercury1

I enjoy texas hold em as my primary card game of choice, sadly whenever my friends and i do play poker(every 2 weeks or so), there's no money involved. Also I have nothing against online poker, especially because of the fact that my brother makes his living(a very good one i might add) off of it. Not a huge fan of omaha however, i do enjoy 5 and 7 card stud though.


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## eDDe9

Mercury.. best way to get your friends playing for money is to all put £5 in and the winner takes all.. if there's a lot of money in the pot, then 1st place takes 70% and 2nd place takes 30%

Then everyone has the same chips, so its tournament style


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## Infinite Jest

Haven't played in ages thanks to stupid lack of net access. But went down to Leicester Square for a poker fair with pros giving speeches and a buncha free rolls. I won a t-shirt for winning a single table ultra turbo (blinds up every 2 hands; took us about 10 minutes). Woot! 

Found a pub nearby that has games, though...will have to look into it.


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## eDDe9

I need to find a pub that has games near me.. while the 24/7 casino has a bar.. it isn't healthy


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## eDDe9

http://www.donkeytest.com/ Test your poker IQ

I got 99 lol


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## Yippee Skippy

Right on - I was just gonna bump the old poker thread I used to be pretty active in.  This will do fine though.


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## shotgunsinthehall

Praise be to Scotty Nyguen, the greatest poker player of all time....That's right, baby!

Oh but how I adore hold 'em...My favorite aspect is when the flop comes your way and you bet. Some douche raises you, so you call. The turn makes your hand stronger, but I check quickly. The douche raises, of course and that's the moment I love, that pure 'I got your fucking ass!' moment. Then I take a long time to call, and repeat the process on the river, except instead of calling I push all in.......And knock the douche off my table. It's the greatest feeling in the world, taking money by being shady, yet winning at the same time. Ownage.


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## johanneschimpo

^ Its not being shady, its being smart!


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## alasdairm

unless you're cheating, there's no shady play in no limit texas hold 'em



alasdair


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## shotgunsinthehall

...But essentially, when I act like I'm making a mistake even though I know they are, that's dishonesty.

I guess that's why I love the game...It's ok, rather, it's encouraged to be dishonest.


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## johanneschimpo

But its not dishonesty. Its playing well.

Should bluffing be considered "lying?"


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## shotgunsinthehall

Well...It essentially is.

...But that's my point. In poker it's ok to be a ruthless, dishonest, money-hording, dictator, better than ok...That's how you win!

Furthermore, when you 'bully' people around with the big stack, you're more likely to win, but isn't bully a negative term anywhere else?

I love this game.


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## eDDe9

Bluffing isn't misinformation, its disinformation


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## alasdairm

the espn coverage of the main event has started. i'm watching the first segment and saw some guy get busted out of day one - his *quad aces* beat by a *royal flush*. the Ad on the river made both hands...

chances of quad aces vs. royal in the same hand? *2.7 billion* to one 

alasdair


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## eDDe9

Oh my, wish I could've witnessed that

Will probably have to wait until final table to see it on Channel 5 in the UK


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## alasdairm

you can: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ncpu_royal-flush-vs-quad-aces-world-seri_sport

unfortunately, you don't get to see the whole hand - just the end.

alasdair


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## eDDe9

Thanks


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## shotgunsinthehall

...!


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## Chaos Butterfly

sick.

just totally sick.


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## Yippee Skippy

Anybody here a PokerTracker expert?  'Cause mine is running like dogshit!


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## ayoOC80

thats a crazy fucking hand, and whats crazier? ray ramano being there!


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## alasdairm

played at my local card club again last night - they have a $50 tournament. i've only played once before and i won it 

didn't last longer than an hour.

dealt KK. raise in late position to 3 times the blind. two callers. flop comes 288. guy to my right checks. i bet about half the pot. guy to my left folds. guy to my right moves all in. i call. he turns over A9 and hits an ace on the river to bust me.

poker is great. poker sucks.



alasdair


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## YELLOWBUTTHOLE

Rusty Cage said:


> I started playing poker about a month ago, and since then I've moved on to online play for real cash. Early last week I deposited 30, and have since turned it into 150. I have found the game to fill a niche that was once filled by a much more expensive card game *cough*magic*cough*. Not to mention I feel like I have a natural nack for the game.
> 
> And anyways I was just wondering if anyone here plays. I was wondering if anyone had figured out a way to read some of the online players. If I could tell what half the field was doing I'd feel much more in control of the game, for now the only tell I get is the bet, and it's hard to spot tells on a bet.



Online poker is a scam. Basically if your winning your a goomba... So... Enjoy winning and living a false reality.


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## DoctorShop

I don't do too badly in home games and live tournaments etc but online is just tilting me lately. Pre flop I feel I am doing most things right but OTF I am too passive. I have been c-betting the flop a lot more and that's improved my win rate. I just need to work on when to re raise etc.

Awesome game. Keeps you occupied. Great spectator sport as well (when you can see the whole cards).


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## ilikestims

tournies are 90% preflop. chances are ur not shoving enough


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## alasdairm

^ not really.

played at the card club last night. regular small tourney. they only had one table and i was alternate 3. it's a rebuy so i waited nearly an hour to sit. i sit through a dead small blind and dead button and get pocket 10s in late position first hand. i raise about 2.75 times the bb. two folds then a chick (who i saw make the loosest call ever - and lose - one hand before) goes all in. she has me covered. guy to her left thinks for what seemed like 10 minutes then folded his pocket jacks.

she turns over pocket 8s. hits an 8 on the river. i player for about 90 seconds i think.

what a brutal, beautiful game 

alasdair


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## Jabberwocky

alasdairm said:


> what a brutal, beautiful game
> 
> alasdair



In that order.


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