# There is no real point in life.



## Soul Garden

Before you start reading this, I want you to know that this is not meant to be depressing in any way. It's not a, "Why should I live when there's no point in life?" thread... It's my own little philosophy I've made that many people don't seem to understand so far.
When I say there is no point in life, I say there is absolute freedom. There is no point or expectation to live up to. The point in life is not to be happy, to please religious figures, to live life in general, etc... This is simply because there is no point in life. To believe there is an actual point in life is to put limitations and restrictions on it. Every being is absolutely free. Free to act chaoticly, free to show random behavior with no real meaning, free to make any choice, free to fulfill any dream, free to do anything... 
I also say this because there is no exact reason or point for anything existing. Let's discuss a planet like Jupiter or Pluto. These of course, are not living things. A similarity though, is that they are made of matter, just like living things. Do these planets have a point? No. They're there just because they are. Here comes somewhat of a mind fuck. Does matter really have a point? No. Once again, it's just there. It exists. We are a conscious form of matter with no real point. We're here because we are.
We don't have an expectation or point to live up to. Therefore, we are completely free and can do whatever we want. We live a pointless life in a pointless universe. This is not sad or depressing though. It is not negative, nor is it positive. It is neutral. I will simply state again. There is no point. And without a point, there are no restrictions or limitations on life or within the wonderful universe we live in.


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## swilow

Nihilism?


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## What 23

That's what we were supposed to realize on/about 12/21/2012. That's what the whole zero point was about. Sort of. Not really.

On topic/serious though: I would say you might be right, up to a point (ha...).

No but really, you do not have total freedom, really. And really, you are quite robotic. 

A. You do not have total freedom: In order to function and keep functioning needs must be met. Needs which are requirements which are dependent on other needs and etc sew on. You're locked in. If you want to do anything if you want freedom you need to be in the system. So yea, there is a point.

B. You are robotic: You are a slave. You can try to convince youself otherwise, and you may simply not have the recognition to know it, but going back to A., you need things. And those things need things. In order to go, there must be a point, to go to. The closest there can be to no point is it you just give up completely, and reject the system totally, and die. But even then, you move with a point. 

Maybe life is to have a point? A goal. Maybe that goal is ambiguous. But ultimately for life and existence to exist it should have a point that lends itself to self perpetuation. This could be said to be locked into the nature of existence itself.

You were born in chains.
You aren't getting out of them...
Unless you can escape death and master the universe/make it your beeatch.


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## realtalkloc

if you think beautiful people like Jessica Alba just suddenly came into being without any creator by them, then you are lost the way many other people are, and in order to learn about your creator you must turn to religious scripture. No other way.


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## Abject

^ lol


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## Soul Garden

I like the link for nihilsm and I like "what 23's" answer. I refuse to see myself as robotic or slave like. Those people are the people who follow trends and let things like mass media make decisions for them. These are people who kiss the ass of authority and believe they are bound by laws and rules, which are man made illusions. I like your point(no pun intended) though, what 23. You have a really good point actually. I definitely need to meet requirements and needs to continue living. We all do. We can choose not to meet those requirements and needs though 
Realtalkloc - What are you on, mate?
Abject - How do you feel about this theory or "nihilism"?


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## Abject

I don't really care for your theory. There's no inherent point to existence? Sure. Does this mean we're unable to create a subjective point? Or even objective, in relation to the current state of affairs.
Just because a tree and I are made of the same core stuff it doesn't make us similar. Existence having no purpose doesn't mean you can't hold yourself (and others) to a standard, to expectations.
I'm not sure how I feel about free-will; we are in control but we don't control ourselves. If I were to have to pick a side, I would say we lack control more than we're in control.

I'm a nihilist myself, but I don't tell people that. It has a bad reputation and the general population are misinformed/view it badly. I'm a bit pessimistic, and I don't see this as an inherently bad quality either, but most do.

I found a little something for you:


> What do values, knowing and communication have in common? Each relies on us representing our world or parts of it with symbols. A symbol uses a part of the whole to communicate the whole, and depends on its audience knowing enough about the topic to know what the symbol represents. Even our memories are stored in symbolic form such that we recall a summary or a conclusion, but not the whole of what is going on. Many of us can remember the end result of a conversation in a room; few can remember the steps of conversation, or all of the objects in the room.
> 
> Nihilism is a rejection of the "false world" of symbols, memories and the "knowing" of others. When we say all values are baseless, we mean they are a choice and there is no writing on the wall or Word of God or scientific "proof" which can justify them. The world does not tell us what to believe; the world just is. Nothing is inherent and we cannot prove that some value or truth is inherent. We can only elect to believe them.


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## Soul Garden

Abject - I like the read you posted. The more you know


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## -=SS=-

I get where you're coming from OP, and I both agree and disagree with what you said.

I think there is a point to 'all of this' but it's difficult for us to see it because we're wrapped up in the game of life. You know how it's always easier to see the major flaws in other people but when it comes to yourself.. ha, we're masters of denial and ignorance of what is plainly obvious to others about ourselves. So the same is true with humanity itself. We have this continuing assumption that we _are/_ top dogs of organic life on this planet and have constructed a fancy cosmological tale to justify our current behaviors, when in fact we are part of a process much grander than we can know, in the same way the cells that constitute our body have no idea what purpose they are helping to fulfill.

We clearly _are_ robotic. Again we love to deny the obvious and think of ourselves as complex mystical creatures, but we're just robots with thousands of pattern reactions. No different from the fly that lands on the table and jitters about with its movements.. calculated, reactionary, machine like. 

But in terms of a point? Our purpose is no different from other life.. reproduce and then provide food for other organisms with our waste, and eventually our corpse too. So in relation to society and humanity.. no, there is no point.. you make it what you make it, or what others make it for you (which is like 99% of people). It's all games and fairy tales. But in relation to the Universe and beyond that, I definitely think there is a point to all of this but it might not be what you want it to be. Like the cow or the chicken in the coop, our purpose may be far less glitzy than what we've constructed down through the ages. 

Life just happens to us. The only way to have new meaning is give yourself new meaning through doing, through becoming something less than a robot.. which is basically what the philosophical/spiritual path is about.. finding ways to interrupt the programming for a moment and throwing in a new problem to the computer/brain, such as, Who or what am I? So I disagree with your statement about freedom and being free. I think it's quite the opposite.. we are far more enslaved than we realize, and those who protest their freedom are usually the most enslaved of all.


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## Shrooms00087

Of course there is no "point" to it. It just happened, and we can get destroyed by the universe in a multitude of ways. However, there is a purpose behind life that is devoid of a point. There is no reason behind us having any sort of purpose or forming any society or even keeping society together. However the purpose to do and sustain these things overshadow the question of "primary cause of life" because there is none. We build onto ourselves with purpose.


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## ComfortablyNumb95

-=SS=- said:


> We clearly _are_ robotic. Again we love to deny the obvious and think of ourselves as complex mystical creatures, but we're just robots with thousands of pattern reactions. No different from the fly that lands on the table and jitters about with its movements.. calculated, reactionary, machine like.


beings that can produce beautiful things such as music, visual art and literature are complex imho
it is true that we react following certain patterns, but everything in the universe acts like that. (that i know of course, if someone can correct me I'd be very glad  )


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## -=SS=-

ComfortablyNumb95 said:


> beings that can produce beautiful things such as music, visual art and literature are complex imho
> it is true that we react following certain patterns, but everything in the universe acts like that. (that i know of course, if someone can correct me I'd be very glad  )



But one shouldn't assume that just because we appear complex (to ourselves) that we are somehow not robotic and gifted with divine imagination. I don't know about literature and language, but music and visual art definitely have their roots in geometry, geometry that is inherent in nature and the mechanics of this universe.. but when it comes to producing art and music I think a lot of it is still essentially mechanical. However, I do believe that through the mind we can tap into this "divine imagination" and access patterns that no one else has channeled into this world yet. Essentially this means I believe that all patterns exist as a potential in some sort of unmanifested domain and that these can be brought forth into physical reality.

This might sound slightly drab but it doesn't depreciate the art and music I love. If anything it makes it more poignant and touching in a much deeper way than I had considered before. 

Trying to bring this back around to the topic, one could suggest that art and music should help facilitate a connection with this mystery, and that in terms of a point to life one could devote themselves to making transcendental creations in order to help mankind find its roots again. Or maybe this is the wine talking, I don't know.


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## Foreigner

The only thing happening is _right now_. You can choose to see a point to it or not. It is only "me" that causes contraction. When "me" is put aside, there is an inherent happening that's being done despite any doer. _You_ aren't doing anything. 

During intense suffering I may pray to God while I am crying, with the full knowledge that all I'm doing is creating an extreme 'other' that is more grandios and omnipotent than myself so that I can extract some kind of comfort and reassurance. But my body needs this... so I do it anyway. When Jesus was on the cross he said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And likewise it is said that a camel can be more easily put through the eye of a needle than have a rich man turn toward Heaven. These statements are all about ego and how it has to die. Jesus said the Father and I are one, yet he asks about why "me" has been forsaken on the cross. It's all ego death baby. 

There really _is no point_ apart from the one that you make. You can create any construct, knowing full well it means nothing. That doesn't mean you should cease doing anything. You are still this animal body, you still possess intellectual faculties, and you can still relate; but the only difference between the pure Empty vessel that is doing it and someone who is freaking out about whether or not Emptiness is real, is mind. While mind is creating things to hold onto, Emptiness is there silently being. While the mind asks how to achieve stillness, there is already stillness happening. It never goes anywhere. 

Ego death is so necessary to transcend suffering. It doesn't mean you won't suffer anymore, it means there would be an imbibed acknowledgement that there is nothing in there to experience the suffering. Unfortunately, in my case, it's not just ego death, it's ego _being tortured to death_.

It would be really great if they made a movie where the main character just quietly dies, and there is no explanation. Nothing next, no mourning, no nothing. That would be epic. Seems like every system that humans have thought of so far is to give ego something to do. I love Buddhism because it turns people into wonderful human beings, but even the idea of merit and karma is to give mind the idea that it can do certain things to be in control. Even at the time of death, a time of supreme letting go, they expect you to be doing something to achieve enlightenment. 

There is nothing that needs doing, and it's wonderful.


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## Zerrr

IMO

There may be a point if somehow you could get every human to understand each other.

I basically hold the same view, somewhere in the Nihilism/Solipsism/Existentialism range.

Unless J.Krishnamurti and Bill Hicks are actually right...


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## Ninae

More like there are too many and you have no chance of covering all.


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## malakaix

Soul Garden.. I just wish to say thankyou for this thread, it's very refreshing to know that someone else also has an understanding of this.



Soul Garden said:


> When I say there is no point in life, I say there is absolute freedom. There is no point or expectation to live up to. The point in life is not to be happy, to please religious figures, to live life in general, etc... This is simply because there is no point in life. To believe there is an actual point in life is to put limitations and restrictions on it. Every being is absolutely free. Free to act chaoticly, free to show random behavior with no real meaning, free to make any choice, free to fulfill any dream, free to do anything...



I could not agree more, and i see existence in the exact same view. It's liberating to realize this.. that accepting and acknowledging the pointlessness of life liberates you from every and all restrictions and your thrown into the chaos of everything.. a great sense of freedom; some days i think about the simplicity of this and it makes me laugh that i allow life to stress me out so much.. and on the same token, it makes me question 'how can i apply meaning and purpose to my existence?'

This is the real question here, because your now within a free domain to define and create value where you see fit.. 

And i personally have no idea how to do this.. i have been stuck in 'limbo' for years. I see the world as chaotic, beautiful and meaningless with moments of supreme catharsis.


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## Zerrr

Ninae said:


> More like there are too many and you have no chance of covering all.



Ha, yes, unless I created them..

op's topic doesn't differ much from Existentialism...Existence precedes essence


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## pmoseman

This repeats some of what was said above, maybe it will spark ideas, or not.

Many things have purpose: pigs and chickens, bacteria and yeast, cars and sunglasses. The dead things are subject to laws of matter, nothing more, but why do the living things choose to do what they do? We put microbes in the warm environment they enjoy, serving our purpose, but even after you have eaten that fat pig and taken your own life out of serious depression, those little bacteria seem to think being alive is a great idea and are more than happy to utilize all that energy you have consumed to help themselves to being alive.

So why do they? Are we content to believe bacteria understand a deep and rich tapestry of meaning, while we fail to see the purpose of it all? Surely, we are the brighter of the two.

We may have a purpose for something larger, but not for ourselves. Neither thing is what keeps us going. The universe has a purpose for us, we are here to accelerate entropy, we are destroying ourselves, like yeast in the oven, but not before we complete the task and if we are lucky, all get eaten. In the truly big scheme of things, our years are so many minutes on an oven dial. Not real inspiring or meaningful, yet we trudge on.

Well... that is, if the universe has an actual boundary (which there can never be evidence of). Why would the universe (all known existence) just want to speed up entropy and destroy itself, as soon as possible. Seems a noble task, if you think of it like wanting to sleep, possibly be reborn, to be left alone, to be without pain. Not because it lacks any real purpose. But being dead then does not quench anything.

Viewing ourselves, we see that we do not control whether or not we are alive, we are born without any choice in the matter, and we get put in an environment with these maniacs, for whatever other purpose, that is not easily known. I am simply curious, why I would say revenge is one purpose of my whole life. In so much, as I want to feel like I have a choice. I want my choice to affect something larger than me. I want to know what that larger something is, what its purpose for me is, and how much control I have, and why it wants me alive or dead, because it doesn't feel like I have any control. Even if I could know, it doesn't feel like I can, I might turn out to be my own worse enemy. I may find out I am being kept alive for some evil, myself.

The purpose of doing work or creating work, to stay alive... and to hell with whatever the bigger picture may or may not be. This kind of purpose is directed inward, toward solving a problem like boredom, which can end up killing you, or protecting your skin from herpes or something. The work then has a purpose to simply keep us alive and comfortable. To keep our family unit alive. Simply being alive is very rewarding, in my opinion. This goes beyond simply existing, it goes into exploration and having those moments of joy that you experience by waiting around for them.

You don't need to be a human to experience being around, you could just be a brick. They exist, probably pretty cool... being a brick, to have no purpose of life beyond being a brick... or in a vegetative state. A brick being "dead" doesn't see the point of "living" either, maybe something else saw the point of it being dead, which was likely a human accomplishment, really, probably some forest fire we started 50,000 years ago. Then again, there is no particular reason that we became alive, for ourselves, in the meanwhile we think there is a purpose, and that is why we are still keeping ourselves alive... and why we are such useful little agents of destruction for whatever created us.

We have a purpose and nothing is going to a better job of telling itself it has a purpose than us. Kind of the reverse of what one might expect, or the inside out. There is almost a competition inside of me for finding purpose. With it I could acheive and control, without it I am wasting time and possibly being set up for some horrible death. What purpose am I fulfilling, in a survival sense, is a very vital question. I think the impulse for an irrational purpose comes out of nature and survival, and seeking our true purpose and convincing others they have a purpose is a really great for survival. Then the desire to "end it all" is just a gambit nature plays, which sometimes back-fires. After all, I seem to be accepting that life has no purpose, why should that even matter to us? Accepting that life doesn't have a purpose but deciding to go ahead anyway and hopefully eventually you will run into something unexpected. That's life, it is weird, but why would I want to kill myself? No purpose. Brick. All knowing, all powerful brick. You can just go on happily being a brick in all this chaos. The brick was... miniscule, unimportant, he found there was more to see, more important, intelligent, beautiful things out there than being a brick, and whether we actively choose to be "dead" or "alive" we stand a slightly better chance not to get eaten like a universal loaf of bread; so we create life.

There is definitely something going on. It doesn't matter how we got to this point... exactly, but we are now aware of a vast universe that we are not equipped to even explore. It is just crazy how much variety of how much stuff there is. If you want to call exploration a purpose, that is fine, I'll just hang around until something comes up, and dream secretly of revenge.


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## Zerrr

Great post pmose..

One of the many things that keeps me going is...

I want Neuroscience to explain why us humans have this biological need to compete and survive, not only what is going on in the brain, but why some of us can (seemingly) overcome it and become what we refer to as "enlightened". 

I used to tell people you explain things to yourself, you understand them, and then you grow/evolve but that is just philosophy, and (afaik) according to the elite of Academia 'Philosophy is dead'.


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## Foreigner

This conversation is too intellectual and mind based. I know that's true of philosophy as a whole, but it _really_ applies to this particular topic. All that really exists is this given moment... why make it anymore complicated than that? "Life" beyond this moment is anyone's guess. It's always been that way. The "point" is Empty because it constantly changes. In this moment I'm eating cereal because I'm hungry, and I'm typing on an internet forum as some sort of recreation. Those are the purposes being served in this moment. At some point I will probably go to bed, and that moment's purpose will be to achieve rest. If you ask any given person what the meaning of life is at any given moment, you'll engage their mind, and then they'll just go back to doing whatever it was they were doing before you asked -- tasks that are devoid of some kind of "higher" meaning until you tried assigning one. Do you see how this is a mind-based question only that is actually quite irrelevant to anything going on in the present moment? 

If you're looking for one, permanent, fixed point of purpose to life as a whole, I doubt you're going to find one. Everything about this existence is impermanent. Just when you think you've found a point to it all, the perspective is liable to shift again... maybe in 5 minutes, maybe 5 years, or maybe at the point of your death. Who's to say? Either way... this is verbal masturbation. Without mind applying its controlling terms and contractile "me" to every moment, the moment is just happening. It is empty of purpose aside from what you assign to it. It can also have no purpose at all, and that's just fine.

Why must everything mean something for us to feel okay about it? A rock doesn't need a purpose, neither does a mountain, a river, a fish, or a deer. They just do what they do, so do you. Isn't just sitting with the splendor of the present moment enough? Trying to project beyond that is one big headache.


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## MyDoorsAreOpen

OP, I ask you the same question I ask everyone who says what you say: What _would_ a _real_ point in life look like to you? In a hypothetical world where all things were equally possible, what would or could qualify as an indicator of your life's point? What I'm getting at is, what exactly are you negating? I mean this both as a rhetorical question and one worth trying to answer.

I have a perverse fascination with the old philosophical chestnut of "What is the meaning of life?" and "What is my life's purpose?". I have tried in vain to see things from the perspective of the majority of people who've responded to this thread. Not for lack of trying, I find neither liberation nor empowerment in nihilism or any similar philosophy, at least the way most philosophers with a Western intellectual background have worded it. I have found again and again that I am at my best, meaning best motivated to get the most out of my life and be a light to others, when I entertain the notion that I am here living the life I am now as some part of greater purpose or plan. I do not know what that plan is or who the planner is, but I don't need to know and it may not be for me to know, at least not yet. Therefore I won't worry about it, and just be the best MyDoorsAreOpen I know how to be. (Same end, different pathway? Hmm...)


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## dunkigler

If you subscribe to the notion of animism then there is a living spirit inside every so called living and non-living thing. This means that everything has a purpose and a meaning.  If you truly want to understand our role as sentient beings, it is just that, our ability to confirm and deny meaning to everything both within and outside of ourselves.  Personally I believe meaning and life go hand in hand.  And it is wiser to consider the meaning in life, rather than the meaning of life.  When it comes to the snapshot of the present moment that we find ourselves in, there are no words or philosophies to really guide us.  But personally I believe true meaning will be revealed (in time) and it will involve our relationship with ourselves, each other, and the entire cosmos.  In a sense, I think meaning may only exist between us, not within us, and that is what time is for, to allow ourselves the freedom to come to terms with each other.


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## pmoseman

You require things outside of yourself to function, but within yourself is the source, outside is a larger unknown. Balance these forces. Merge with the unknown, but do not be fooled by the illusion of the outside world. You are part of it but it is not always what you see.


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## Vurtual

Meaning or point or purpose seem like completely subjective and relative to what is being experienced or focussed on.  You have to choose or create your own meaning(s), and these will surely change as you do (Foreigner said it better).  I vaguely think there is some overall panglossian point to it all as an optimist - i choose to vaguely think this for an easier life.  When i think specifically, the personal point of it for me is to create, experience joy and discover stuff (or to decrease entropy if you like).


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## pmoseman

(Something tells me we won't have to worry.)


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## Br1ngTh3Ra1n

Soul Garden said:


> We don't have an expectation or point to live up to. Therefore, we are completely free and can do whatever we want. We live a pointless life in a pointless universe.



If I got this right, what you want to say is that since there is no goal in life, since there aren't, like in a game, achievements or a certain state which we have to reach in order to fulfill our reason of living, there is no point of living after all.And I think this theory is 100% reasonable. I mean playing a game with no rules, with no other players and with no challenges or goals is meaningless really. But here's the thing. Life do have a goal.
Life isn't pointless in my opinion. Unconscious matter have no point in life since they are not aware of it. But living things do. Jupiter might not even know it exists, but we are aware of our existence..as well as animals and other living organisms. Unlike tornadoes and earthquakes, our actions aren't random or just a result of some change in temperature (BTW I never really succeeded in geology so don't hate) but they are planned by ourselves because we do have a point in life and that is to evolve! 
You said we have no expectations..that we are not expected to do anything by nobody..but we are!! And In every single thing in our daily life. Our parents, for example expect us to find a job, bosses expect us to work. Teachers to study..and so on. And and we expect ourselves to be in a constant evolving cycle. 
You also said that we are free to do whatever we want so that also puts a question mark over whether or not life has a point. But we aren't free... Other than the fact we have rules and codes and so on... We are not free to do whatever we want when we want. That's the exact reason why you're not jumping on one leg when holding your phone while reading this comment! All of our actions are followed by reactions and, unlike the saying "live as if there was no tomorrow.", well it isn't the last day... And tomorrow you will have to deal with the consequences of your actions today. So not much for the whole freedom point, since no one will act knowing his reactions will have a negative impact on himself.
In the end, what I tried to say was, there is a point In life for us and that is to keep moving forward, to get better by the day, either stronger or smarter, and to work our ass off so that we can live a good life, because the most important person expects that from you. The person that you know most and that will never let you down, the most important being in the universe and that is yourself


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## pmoseman

^Those are good points.

If a rock does not have any plans, then we are not like a rock, which is the natural consequence of chemical reactions and physical laws; our minds were _sent_ here, like curious explorers.


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## flyhighk

Br1ngTh3Ra1n said:


> Unconscious matter have no point in life since they are not aware of it


 So unconscious entities are useless? 


> But living things do. Jupiter might not even know it exists, but we are aware of our existence..as well as animals and other living organisms.


 Some animals, and all plants have no consciousness. They are unaware of their existence. So according to you, plants (which are unconscious living organisms) have a point in life, and concurrently don't have a point in life? You just contradicted yourself 



> to keep moving forward, to get better by the day, either stronger or smarter, and to work our ass off so that we can live a good life, because the most important person expects that from you [...] and that is yourself


 Are you saying that every person expects himself/herself to get better by the day ? Many people (some terminal cancer patients for example) don't expect themselves to get better/stronger/smarter.


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## pmoseman

flyhighk said:


> Some animals, and all plants have no consciousness. They are unaware of their existence.


How do we know which are conscious (aware of their own existence) and which are not?


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## Br1ngTh3Ra1n

Excuse me for not being able to use quote feature as I'm still not familiar with it but here is my response:
1. Learn the difference between "they have no point in life" and "useless". Unlike you stated."they have no point in life" means they are not aware of it as we do, it means that they do not hope to achieve goals in it like we do. They can't be useless as life wouldn't exist without them.
In case you still have problems understanding this point : unconscious entities have no point in their life, but in ours they are a priority of course.
2. I made it clear that matter like planets aren't conscious, have no point in life as they aren't aware of it. But plants and animals do it's why they evolve, and they are  living beings aware of the live happening around them
3. If you have a problem in your life, that doesn't allow you to expect yourself to get better by the day. Than I'm sorry to say but that's not how people are. AS for the people with terminal, which by the way I would have loved if we kept them out of the subject, rest sure that all of them seek in getting better. It's called hope.
N.B: movies like my "sister's keeper", for example, doesn't reflect the true thoughts of terminal cancer patients


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## Cavorting

Soul Garden said:


> Before you start reading this, I want you to know that this is not meant to be depressing in any way. It's not a, "Why should I live when there's no point in life?" thread... It's my own little philosophy I've made that many people don't seem to understand so far.
> When I say there is no point in life, I say there is absolute freedom. There is no point or expectation to live up to. The point in life is not to be happy, to please religious figures, to live life in general, etc... This is simply because there is no point in life. To believe there is an actual point in life is to put limitations and restrictions on it. Every being is absolutely free. Free to act chaoticly, free to show random behavior with no real meaning, free to make any choice, free to fulfill any dream, free to do anything...
> I also say this because there is no exact reason or point for anything existing. Let's discuss a planet like Jupiter or Pluto. These of course, are not living things. A similarity though, is that they are made of matter, just like living things. Do these planets have a point? No. They're there just because they are. Here comes somewhat of a mind fuck. Does matter really have a point? No. Once again, it's just there. It exists. We are a conscious form of matter with no real point. We're here because we are.
> We don't have an expectation or point to live up to. Therefore, we are completely free and can do whatever we want. We live a pointless life in a pointless universe. This is not sad or depressing though. It is not negative, nor is it positive. It is neutral. I will simply state again. There is no point. And without a point, there are no restrictions or limitations on life or within the wonderful universe we live in.


That was a really good post..


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## PORB

we are creatures seeking meaning in a universe without out meaning in of itself, therefore you must cultivate your own meaning. how? "do what thou will"


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## swilow

...shall be the whole of the LAW.


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## methamaniac

If there is no point to life than there is no point in discussing if there is a point to life.
It is wholly pointless. 
Actually it is a word I can't 
express because for something to be pointless a point must first exist.
At best one can believe the point in life is to do your best to not have a point.
To not discover a point.

Feel free to substitute  "meaning" for "point"


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## Ninae

Shrooms00087 said:


> Of course there is no "point" to it. It just happened, and we can get destroyed by the universe in a multitude of ways. However, there is a purpose behind life that is devoid of a point. There is no reason behind us having any sort of purpose or forming any society or even keeping society together. However the purpose to do and sustain these things overshadow the question of "primary cause of life" because there is none. We build onto ourselves with purpose.



It's strange how different humans are.


----------



## Waffle Sock

The point of life is to absorb as much pleasure as possible. Who can refute this? Do you not do the things you do for fulfilment or avoidance of misery?


----------



## Abject

hedonism is not the point of life


----------



## herbavore

^ and ^^Definitely not the point of mine. I cannot agree with your first statement, waffle, but I can at least relate to the second. The thing is, I do a lot of things to avoid misery for other people and for animals and the planet in general (as do most folks I know.) I know, I know, before anyone jumps in with my son's favorite old argument that in reality there is no altruism because ultimately you help the animals to alleviate your own suffering in seeing them hurt or you help others because it keeps your own subconscious bogeymen at bay and you feel righteous. I don't buy that. I work with little kids. One great aspect of my job is that every day I get to see both cruelty and empathy--both very real aspects of our human nature--played out in such perfectly clear ways. Empathy is a connection and I believe it is very real. The way I relate to your second statement is that yes, I do try to find pleasure and seek, through both my choices and my actions, to avoid misery. But when misery comes to me in the form of something I cannot control (this became crystal clear upon my son's death), I choose to accept and enfold those emotions as well. Misery is a part of life and I do love life.


----------



## Waffle Sock

herbavore said:


> But when misery comes to me in the form of something I cannot control (this became crystal clear upon my son's death), I choose to accept and enfold those emotions as well. Misery is a part of life and I do love life.


[Profound respond and this stood out to me the most -] Whoa bruh. That is so deep. I am in complete awe.... I am trying to imagine this; mentally replicate this scenario so I can possibly feel you on another level. I have never been exposed to this train of thought. So sick. I commend you.


----------



## Smoky

Are you referring to nothing?
As in " nothingness "


----------



## Waffle Sock

Smoky said:


> Are you referring to nothing?
> As in " nothingness "


What is this in reference to? And, correct me if im wrong, but "nothingness" is synonymous with oblivion right?


----------



## Smoky

Oh, to the poster. Hi Waffle. 
As in for-itself type consciousness, as in being, nothingness in being, lack of point being…


----------



## PeaceOfPast

Op,

After using things like DMT and nitrous oxide or opiate nods, I feel like life has no point.

I know what it is to die, and I know what it is to have fun.

When I was little I asked my parents why I couldnt see rated R movies. They said, theres nothing wrong with them, but if u see them now, you will be bored and alienated when you are the right age.

Thats what meditation has done to me. There is no point because at the end, theres nothing new.

Music has 8 notes. Sex has x number of positions. Then thats it.

Reminds me of a modest mouse song, "this is a long drive for someone with nothing to think about."


Eat chipotle everyday, it sucks. Then a big mac is better.

Its the ebb and flow of reality.

After seeing reality deconstruct on a plan, some things seem less important.


----------



## Smoky

methamaniac said:


> If there is no point to life than there is no point in discussing if there is a point to life.
> It is wholly pointless.
> Actually it is a word I can't
> express because for something to be pointless a point must first exist.
> At best one can believe the point in life is to do your best to not have a point.
> To not discover a point.
> 
> Feel free to substitute  "meaning" for "point"



Good point, for something to have meaning does there need to be an observer to make it so? Is observer observed?
Is there meaning, or a point without humans finding points? Or something to point to? 
If a tree falls in the forest etc ...


----------



## Ninae

PeaceOfPast said:


> Thats what meditation has done to me. There is no point because at the end, theres nothing new.
> 
> Music has 8 notes. Sex has x number of positions. Then thats it.
> 
> Reminds me of a modest mouse song, "this is a long drive for someone with nothing to think about."
> 
> 
> Eat chipotle everyday, it sucks. Then a big mac is better.
> 
> Its the ebb and flow of reality.
> 
> After seeing reality deconstruct on a plan, some things seem less important.




I sometimes feel the same way. 

Like there's not much left to learn and I also find it hard to engage myself with things and idenitfy with experiences. I just find it hard to take reality seriously but then I've always looked at it a bit like a dream. Things are very dream-like to me, and even more when I'm sober. 

Drugs can also help bring you closer to reality and find more interest in it.


----------



## PeaceOfPast

Smoky said:


> Good point, for something to have meaning does there needs to be an observer to make it so. Is observer observed?
> Is there meaning, or a point without humans finding points? Or something to point to?
> If a tree falls in the forest etc ...



No bs, reminded me a lot of what Jim Carey went on about like last yearish.

Personally, i thought the world was going to end in 2012. Lol.


----------



## Erikmen

I believe meaningful moments depends on how you experience each moment in life.
For me, there would only be a point in living if we contribute to human existence, but it would have to be interest for you/us.
I once tried to volunteer for social work on every other Saturday. I felt compelled to help the less favored and realized that made me feel good.
In a way, I felt it´s selfish to try to help others to feel good about your life. But it enriched my lonely moments. For a tiny bit I felt I was cooperating with something that genuinely were making other people happier.


----------



## Ninae

What I meant wasn't so much if there are objective points. I know there are many points and reasons to live and you can never run out of them. I just find it hard to connect with them.


----------



## Smoky

PeaceOfPast said:


> No bs, reminded me a lot of what Jim Carey went on about like last yearish.
> 
> Personally, i thought the world was going to end in 2012. Lol.



Jim Carey the actor?  I wasn't around for 2 years, so I am clueless… 

I thought I was on my way out.. last year. 

I do understand the deconstructioning process, socially culturally, it has been helpful to call its bluff.


----------



## Erikmen

Ninae said:


> What I meant wasn't so much if there are objective points. I know there are many points and reasons to live and you can never run out of them. I just find it hard to connect with them.



I know, I have the same problem. From sometime now I can´t connect at all. I work, have family duties, but I feel most of the time it is just empty..nothing really meaningful despite of my efforts.


----------



## Journyman16

At one level the detachment we feel can be traced back to neo-Darwinism. There are a number of assumptions to the Evolution problem and lack of meaning is only one of them. 

At a deep-felt level, if we are meaningless accidents of chemicals on a meaningless planet in a meaningless galaxy in a meaningless cluster, it is hard to find purpose. There is a reason all through history people have looked for deeper meaning, but until the advent of the 'modern' era, there was a higher purpose. And until the advent of the Judaics, spirituality was something valued and learned by adepts and apprentices throughout the ancient times.

Even Egypt seems to have had an overarching interest in immortality and it is clear they didn't mean in the current body. The journey through the Duat to reach Osiris and the Gods was not anything designed for a physical body.

Of course Darwinism also has the underlying assumption that we clearly MUST be the highest of all humans, the ones who have been 'fittest' to survive and so obviously superior to those primitives who went before us. Doesn't really matter how many facts you can bring out about the sophistication of the Ancients, modern people will simply ignore that and continue with their view of 'superstitious primitives' and go about their meaning-free lives chasing the latest "Ooh, Shiny!" object to be programmed into their desires.

But finding things of the spirit and coming to realise we are more than a body and a brain can help to reattach to life. It does take some effort to detach from the daily grind and programming, but it is worth the effort. Clean up our diet, stay away from TV, make connections with those around us - all these will help.

And then we can begin on the real journey - finding out how we, as spiritual beings driving around in bodies, came to be where we are.


----------



## Smoky

Good point ^
I relate as well, I can discuss and enjoy them, but this can be pleasure… not reality. How does one 'feel' a concept? I understand if one accepts these at a deep level. Integrating the ideas… What existence is for each individual per say. What is the purpose connected to these concepts in reality? This is important ime.

Life is feeding the dog, caring for children … loved ones… being and living from the inside outward, not becoming what is a thought manifestation of some other realm. This is why I didn't take philosophy in undergrad.
I am in my mind enough as is, learned to live there as a child from trauma.  I find myself delving into abstract concepts when I don't need to. 
Balance is key for me. Meaning of life is individualistic, sense of purpose… Some may say the VOID, is at the center,,, and this may be somewhat true, but so is LOVE


----------



## Ninae

It's not even that I've been taking psychedelics and lost a sense of meaning that way. I'm like that in myself, after I was born I was never fully grounded in this reality, and I've maintained it. Growing up was exciting as everything was new, but after that I kind of started to disconnect and lose interest.

Taking drugs/medication also lowers your vibration and makes you feel closer to this reality. When you stop your vibration rises, and you don't engage with negative things as much anymore, but you can also lose interest in all things and feel very distant. Like you're looking at it from the outside.

You're not in much risk of dying of pain but you can die of boredom.


----------



## Smoky

Journyman16 said:


> But finding things of the spirit and coming to realise we are more than a body and a brain can help to reattach to life. It does take some effort to detach from the daily grind and programming, but it is worth the effort. Clean up our diet, stay away from TV, make connections with those around us - all these will help.
> 
> And then we can begin on the real journey - finding out how we, as spiritual beings driving around in bodies, came to be where we are.



qft


----------



## Erikmen

Smoky said:


> Good point ^
> I relate as well, I can discuss and enjoy them, but this can be pleasure… not reality. How does one 'feel' a concept? I understand if one accepts these at a deep level. What existence is for each individual per say. What is the purpose connected to these concepts in reality? This is important ime.
> 
> Life is feeding the dog, caring for children … loved ones… being and living from the inside outward, not becoming what is a thought manifestation of some other realm. This is why I didn't take philosophy in undergrad.
> I am in my mind enough as is, learned to live there as a child from trauma.  I find myself delving into abstract concepts when I don't need to.
> Balance is key for me. Meaning of life is individualistic, sense of purpose… Some may say the VOID, is at the center,,, and this may be somewhat true, but so is LOVE



Great logic. Nicely put. It makes us wonder..


----------



## Ninae

Journyman16 said:


> And then we can begin on the real journey - finding out how we, as spiritual beings driving around in bodies, came to be where we are.



But what if you're BORED of this?


----------



## Erikmen

I believe the word for me would be motivation. How can we achieve anything without being motivated.
And how do you motivate yourself if you are bored all the time?
There are tons of messages to people to get on with their lives, exercise, produce endorphin, etc.
But again..how do I find the motivation to start?


----------



## Journyman16

Ninae said:


> But what if you're BORED of this?


Then, near as I can tell, we need to put in some effort to find out WTF 'THIS' is so we can leave it. Currently it seems there is no way out but there are strong clues that this isn't all it is.

Download and have a read of Robert Monroe's 'Journey' trilogy. That should alter the perspective a little. :D


----------



## Nom de Plume

The intrinsic lack of any tangible purpose in life and in living life should be obvious, but surprisingly isn't. It seems the only arguable _raison d'être_ would be the proliferation of one's species—procreation. Truthfully, that's the only discernable scientific justification for the existence of any organism. However, this reason doesn't seem to enjoy any widespread public acceptance. Indeed, a majority of people find it unsatisfactory, and would rather believe in some less bleak and more psychologically-palatable philosophical or theological notion, instead. 

Sadly, the only population that actually seems to notice life's meaninglessness are more likely to be accepted to an asylum than by their peers.


----------



## Ninae

I don't really agree a lack of purpose is obvious. I think the many purposes to life are obvious in a theoretical sense. And if someone are really healthy and suited for this life I don't think they should be feeling any of that kind of detachment. 

It can be due to many things. It can be a biological, emotional, intellectual, or spiritual problem. Everyone won't experience it in the same way.


----------



## swilow

Ninae said:


> But what if you're BORED of this?



I can't tell if you mean bored of life or bored of the spiritual journey...? FWIW, I'm not sure its possible to get bored of the journey, different permetuations exist everywhere


----------



## Ninae

It's not possible in the sense that the real end of it is a form of enlightenment that would make it impossible to feel that way. But it's possible to feel you've had enough for now. To be honest, not many make it that far.


----------



## swilow

^The feeling may well return. I'm sort of emerging out of an almost shadowed period in terms of spirit, in that I had no desire to explore, but its returning after some kind meaningful experience of awareness. To be honest, nothing catalyses a desire to search for something metaphysical like psychedelics (especially of the earth-born type)  

Also, summer, happiness, sunlight, stimulation. Mainly summertime. 

Of course YMMV, each to their own, etc et al.


----------



## GodandLove

I was thinking that when quarks are indifferent of their leptonion counterparts, the photons will dissipate. 

You see, when certain interests follow unscheduled guidelines, agendas will then be procrastinated. 

Like when the firefly does the dance of a 1000 candles.


----------



## Ninae

Maybe they just get bored by their counterparts. Maybe they're not that interesting.


----------



## Smoky

Ime, when those that are searching for enlightenment it will always be too far away. It's an illusion… something kept at a distance. 
It's not a state outside of what simply IS, maybe?


----------



## Ninae

Transcendent experiences are real, and drown everything else out, but it's hard to sustain that state.


----------



## Smoky

Yes, Very true…. 
They come and go, I have experienced these without any thought or belief system making them happen… Some might call them mystical experiences.


----------



## GodandLove

Ninae said:


> Maybe they just get bored by their counterparts. Maybe they're not that interesting.



So Ninae, what's your ethnicity and what's your race? 

What kind of girl are you? 

Are you a girly girl?


----------



## Ninae

It's something outside of this life in the same way drugs can put you into a state that's outside of this life. But it's more of an energy-high and much more clear and real. You don't lose sight of the rest of reality, it just goes out of focus for a while. 

Drug-induced transcendent states are artificially induced and when you come down you're not really any further.


----------



## Ninae

GodandLove said:


> So Ninae, what's your ethnicity and what's your race?



Scandinavian/Nordic



GodandLove said:


> What kind of girl are you?



I have a way with police officers



GodandLove said:


> Are you a girly girl?



A bit more in that direction


----------



## Waffle Sock

Ninae said:


> I have a way with police officers


Meaning?


----------



## Ninae

Imagine being a police officer and having to deal with me. They always feel I'm too innocent to have done anything wrong, even when there's evidence of it. Before Christmas I got a call about a possible court case, as they had ceized so many illegal imports, but in the end I only got fined for one.


----------



## Journyman16

Ninae said:


> I have a way with police officers


Did you miss an 'IT' in there somewhere?


----------



## Ninae

No. I've never met anyone as corrupt as that.


----------



## murphythecat

op, life is a adult education class.
the point of life is to be happy, calm and not needing anything.

I used to think like that, youll get out of it. but yeah, the life weve been shown in our society is totally meaningless and wrong. wrong bcause it doesnt bring any happiness or security


----------



## GodandLove

Ninae said:


> Scandinavian/Nordic
> 
> 
> 
> I have a way with police officers
> 
> 
> 
> A bit more in that direction



Why haven't you posted any pictures of yourself?


----------



## Ninae

It's not a dating site


----------



## Waffle Sock

Ninae said:


> It's not a dating site


So... 

we just want to see what you look like. Not date you, smartasss


----------



## Erikmen

Ninae said:


> Scandinavian/Nordic
> I have a way with police officers



Really?


----------



## Nom de Plume

For a philosophical discussion on the meaninglessness of life, I would not have expected it to sharply detour into a puerile affray of angrily-fingered keystrokes and egos, nor transmogrify into a childish pageant of haughty and contemptible, self-assured doctrinaires—each of whom being apparently too stuck on themselves and the defense their own subjective and uncorroborated weltanshauung to notice none of it is germane to the thread's topic, that no one cares, and that each of them is as profoundly flawed and unsubstantiated as all of them.

This is—as should be salient to all but the insensate, inattentive, illiterate, indolent, or indiscreet—a topic of existentialism, as opposed to futile eegoism.


----------



## Erikmen

Nom de Plume said:


> For a philosophical discussion on the meaninglessness of life, I would not have expected it to sharply detour into a puerile affray of angrily-fingered keystrokes and egos, nor transmogrify into a childish pageant of haughty and contemptible, self-assured doctrinaires—each of whom being apparently too stuck on themselves and the defense their own subjective and uncorroborated weltanshauung to notice none of it is germane to the thread's topic, that no one cares, and that each of them is as profoundly flawed and unsubstantiated as all of them.
> 
> This is—as should be salient to all but the insensate, inattentive, illiterate, indolent, or indiscreet—a topic of existentialism, as opposed to futile eegoism.



Regardless of my thoughts on subject matter, this was very well written. Indeed.


----------



## methamaniac

Nom de Plume said:


> For a philosophical discussion on the meaninglessness of life, I would not have expected it to sharply detour into a puerile affray of angrily-fingered keystrokes and egos, nor transmogrify into a childish pageant of haughty and contemptible, self-assured doctrinaires—each of whom being apparently too stuck on themselves and the defense their own subjective and uncorroborated weltanshauung to notice none of it is germane to the thread's topic, that no one cares, and that each of them is as profoundly flawed and unsubstantiated as all of them.
> 
> This is—as should be salient to all but the insensate, inattentive, illiterate, indolent, or indiscreet—a topic of existentialism, as opposed to futile eegoism.



I would have fully expected this OP to go in about any direction it wanted.
It's a discussion on pointlessness. 
Were you really expecting a point??


----------



## Erikmen

Well, there is that..
No direction although OP wrote like it was an essay..


----------



## Nom de Plume

methamaniac said:


> I would have fully expected this OP to go in about any direction it wanted.
> It's a discussion on pointlessness.
> Were you really expecting a point??



It's not a thread about the general notion of pointlessness. It is a thread about the pointlessness of life—a topic clearly abandoned by the last several commenters. 

 I hate nothing more than minced words, and have nothing but disdain for witless dolts and oafish dullards that sincerely believe that either fallacy makes them factual, or that the former is a logically valid substitute for the latter. Please, try again.


----------



## Erikmen

"Falacy" is what you are doing now.
Learn to live with diversity other than hearing only yourself.


----------



## Nom de Plume

Erikmen said:


> "Falacy" [_sic_]  is what you are doing now



Explain.


----------



## Smoky

Sometimes it takes a detour to find the point … even if there is a shift from philosophical inquiry to personal agenda.


----------



## Nom de Plume

Smoky said:


> Sometimes it takes a detour to find the point … even if there is a shift from philosophical inquiry to personal agenda.



I agree. Yet every time I "detour" some pencil-necked moderator deletes my posts because they're off-topic. How curious.


----------



## murphythecat

nom de plume, your doing exactly what you complain about.

how meaningless it was to complain about people going OT.

and, some of us actually did answer OP. but he is clearly absent of his own thread and dont seem to care anymore. maybe he have found meaning 

be more positive, it serves no purpose for yourself to complain about other behavior and judge them


----------



## methamaniac

Murphcat said:
			
		

> and, some of us actually did answer OP. but he is clearly absent of his own thread and dont seem to care anymore. maybe he have found meaning


ha
Maybe the OP is living his/her new found philosophy. 
He/she can't stick around cause he/she may find meaning and violate their version of nihilistic existentialism.


----------



## motiv311

The only meaning is the meaning you assign life. 

If you want it to mean something, it can and will

if you don' t want it to mean anything it wont . 

Sort of a bleak outlook if you ask me.


----------



## Smoky

good point! and knowing when and when not to assign meaning is helpful in life. ime 
it's not necessary most often. some are stuck in archetypes for example, sometimes it really makes no difference at all - just mythology, story… illusion. attachment


----------



## Erikmen

Nicely put!


----------



## TomK

What happens with experiences we had in life after we die? Where do they go? Are we the only ones who grow from them? Or are we are all one? Then who or what grows from it? God? Is God perfect if he grows?


----------



## swilow

*thunder clap*

^I really like all your questions, they include several I have never asked before, such as:



			
				TomK said:
			
		

> Where do they go?



Were they ever 'here' to 'go' anywhere? What is an experience anyway? Hmm.

By growing from experience; does this happen, or do we just accumulate trace memories encoded in neurons and peptides which become obselete and unrecoverable once the hardware has been broken down and recycled? 



> we are all one



I don't think we are all one organism, but I believe we are manifestations of one reality. Every atom in your body has lived in many many other humans, but in many more inanimate objects since the beginning of time. We are not one as such, but are like the totality of grains of sand making up a beach. WE will never die but I will 

God is either unchanging or it is not god IMO. The beginning of the universe indicates that something did change for god to prompt its creativity, so I don't think this conception of it is real.


----------



## TomK

Let's assume God is unchanging as you said. Does not need our tears, suffering, joy, serenity, all that we feel and experience. But then who does need it? We? For what purpose? To grow back spiritually into God we became separated from at one point? If so, how did it happen? Can something perfect allow such a thing? If perfection is indivisible, what are we and what is God? How can we be part of something perfect if humanity has a beginning? Everything with a beginning has an end too somewhere down the line. Therefore, humanity can't be part of God?


----------



## murphythecat

''you'' are the creator
theres the objective reality that is there all along, waiting to be realized


----------



## Ninae

I was waiting for you to say "The point to life is that there is no point".


----------



## murphythecat

of course theres a point to life! As long as theres craving to be, you will be. The desire to become is what makes us here, now.
we should maybe discuss what is the path? what is the goal of every living being?
it seems finding happiness is one of them. escaping suffering another. and we all have different strategies to try to reach that.
I doubt theres many path that brings the end of all suffering and find the permanent contentment, inner joy and independant cause of happiness. but thats my gut feeling talkin, I dont know. Will see!





Ninae said:


> I was waiting for you to say "The point to life is that there is no point".


----------



## TomK

murphythecat said:


> ''you'' are the creator
> theres the objective reality that is there all along, waiting to be realized



You seem confident in what you claim. Got anything concrete to back that up?


----------



## motiv311

TomK said:


> Let's assume God is unchanging as you said. Does not need our tears, suffering, joy, serenity, all that we feel and experience. But then who does need it? We? For what purpose? To grow back spiritually into God we became separated from at one point? If so, how did it happen? Can something perfect allow such a thing? If perfection is indivisible, what are we and what is God? How can we be part of something perfect if humanity has a beginning? Everything with a beginning has an end too somewhere down the line. Therefore, humanity can't be part of God?



He does not NEED, but he wants it. there is no purpose except for the experience itself, the life experience is like a drug for an omniscient, all powerful and utterly lonely being. We are never really separated from God, because we are all like a speck of god, all of the attributes of God are basically within each of us, we all carry his nature. God said in the Bible, "I am the Beginning and the End, Alpha and Omega" which is a beautiful way to say , I am timeless, the one who created and invented the idea of time. Our end is death, our beginning is birth- but really we are timeless too, because we will either go on in the form of endless birth and death loops, having countless lives and experiences , or we will just return to becoming one with our eternal essence anyway.


----------



## Ninae

God likes to play hide and seek with himself. But one of the strangest experiences is the feeling of God as being within you as opposed to being something outside you. It goes against what we're conditioned to believe and is very strange and overwhelming.


----------



## Erikmen

motiv311 said:


> He does not NEED, but he wants it. there is no purpose except for the experience itself, the life experience is like a drug for an omniscient, all powerful and utterly lonely being. We are never really separated from God, because we are all like a speck of god, all of the attributes of God are basically within each of us, we all carry his nature. God said in the Bible, "I am the Beginning and the End, Alpha and Omega" which is a beautiful way to say , I am timeless, the one who created and invented the idea of time. Our end is death, our beginning is birth- but really we are timeless too, because we will either go on in the form of endless birth and death loops, having countless lives and experiences , or we will just return to becoming one with our eternal essence anyway.



That's an interesting concept


----------



## motiv311

Thanks^ its not just me, i'm sure you've heard all sorts of philosophical rants espousing the same concept. "We are all one" while cliche has been around probably forever, although specifically it can be traced back to the '60's and the psychedelic influenced philosophy of the hippies. I see many young bluelighters and other equally book smart and nerdy hipsters basically touting the same idea - but you can tell they are just regurgitating the same idea that some of us KNOW --- because at least in my case, I didn't really think on this concept or honestly even care about it until a severely disturbing and utterly mind-blowing trip that I had when I was 22; which left me unsettled and disturbed for a period of months. 

After I was able to integrate this one extreme trip, I engaged in a series of pretty intense DMT / Ayahuasca / Changa trips, 4 years later and was able to thoroughly inspect each side of the rubrics cube so to speak. . Until I had an ultimate breakthrough DMT trip, where I met the "Source" ... the "architect" and was permitted to ask whatever questions I wished. The answers I got shocked me , because I could remember my life before my life, I could remember the answers I wasn't ever permitted to know, and I found out why "forbidden" is forbidden. Sometimes Ignorance is bliss, so do not go knocking on the door if you aint ready to be floored.


----------



## murphythecat

one should be only concern about the experience of now, the feeling of now. all those viewpoints are simply viewpoints based upon the relative view of self and mainly CREATED by thoughts.


----------



## TomK

motiv311 said:


> He does not NEED, but he wants it. there is no purpose except for the experience itself, the life experience is like a drug for an omniscient, all powerful and utterly lonely being. We are never really separated from God, because we are all like a speck of god, all of the attributes of God are basically within each of us, we all carry his nature. God said in the Bible, "I am the Beginning and the End, Alpha and Omega" which is a beautiful way to say , I am timeless, the one who created and invented the idea of time. Our end is death, our beginning is birth- but really we are timeless too, because we will either go on in the form of endless birth and death loops, having countless lives and experiences , or we will just return to becoming one with our eternal essence anyway.



Bible, endless cycle of life and death... man, that sounds like just another New Age theory powered by pot. Not that I mind if that's what you believe in honestly, I'm a free thinker so by all means do seek your truth. I just don't see the point why wold an entity that is perfect require anything from lower forms of being. 

It's like asking for a ten bucks donation, in spite that all the money in the world is actually yours anyhow.


----------



## TomK

murphythecat said:


> one should be only concern about the experience of now, the feeling of now. all those viewpoints are simply viewpoints based upon the relative view of self and mainly CREATED by thoughts.



Do you realize you are referring to something someone wrote in THE PAST? : )


----------



## motiv311

how are we lower forms of beings? When did i say God requires anything of us? Who says god is perfect or life is perfect? and who decides exactly what makes up "perfect" - I happen to believe that what we think of as perfect is in the spectrum of human possibiity .. i believe a perfect specimen would have flaws - otherwise they would be sterile and boring. 

Ok , whats your take on the whole thing? Do you have anything in terms of personal conviction regarding creation and humanity?


----------



## murphythecat

but most likely that affects him right now


TomK said:


> Do you realize you are referring to something someone wrote in THE PAST? : )


----------



## TomK

motiv311 said:


> how are we lower forms of beings? When did i say God requires anything of us? Who says god is perfect or life is perfect? and who decides exactly what makes up "perfect" - I happen to believe that what we think of as perfect is in the spectrum of human possibiity .. i believe a perfect specimen would have flaws - otherwise they would be sterile and boring.
> 
> Ok , whats your take on the whole thing? Do you have anything in terms of personal conviction regarding creation and humanity?



Sure. I think Abrahamic religions are a scourge of the Earth. Something this planet would flourish without... Without THE PROPHET, carpenter and, err... that other guy Jews pray to. Imagine if we were all as humble and simple as Eskimos or some tribe in Amazonian rain forests. These people lived the way it's meant to be. 
How created us? Aliens. A specie with advanced understanding of genetics. Sumerians talk of them, Bible speaks of giants Jews destroyed also. Were they really giants, lizards, make no difference to me. We were made with way too many genetic flaws, completely dependent on brainpower to survive. No fur, no claws, no nothing... We also use a fraction of brainpower that is somehow biologically locked. Those who designed us did so for a specific task. A race of gold miners, some say. I read they discovered some gold mines in South Africa, 50,000 years old. Man... that's OLD. I also don't think this advanced specie didn't invent its self, it became somehow. Which leads us to god concept again...  

But why all this suffering, hatred, killing, misery... I just can't make sense of it. Looks like God doesn't needs it, we don't want it. Yet it happens.


----------



## Ninae

TomK said:


> How created us? Aliens. A specie with advanced understanding of genetics. Sumerians talk of them, Bible speaks of giants Jews destroyed also. Were they really giants, lizards, make no difference to me. We were made with way too many genetic flaws, completely dependent on brainpower to survive. No fur, no claws, no nothing... We also use a fraction of brainpower that is somehow biologically locked. Those who designed us did so for a specific task. A race of gold miners, some say.



And I'm accused of promoting fringe-beliefs which don't have anything constructive to offer anyone.


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## Erikmen

Ah? Why do you say that?


----------



## motiv311

TomK
God that great! ^ talk about dumb, ok so you heard of zecharia sitchen , and you know a few misinterpreted facts about brain power and genetics. How are we flawed? Genetically we are pretty fucking amazing, because of evolution we are prone to DNA forking and therefore certain diseases and mutations .... but i've seen human beings do impossible and amazing things. Such as a blind man who can see wearing a blindfold. 

the annunaki are "those who from heaven to earth came" and they supposedly taught us civilization and helped teach us how to quarry stone and use technology. They were supposedely quite tall and could possibly control their appearance as we were not allowed to depict them in their original form. It is possible that they were here mining gold , and we helped them out with that. Yeah their is some evidence to support that stuff, but truth be told its quite difficult to be sure because the tablets that sitchen translated off are so ancient that no one can really understand the writing for sure; sitchen is one of like 4 that can even claim to make heads or tails of those writings. And besides all that, those ideas can still fit in my belief structure, and that of the other two with whom you were pointlessly debating. 

 Its funny , because all you have really is something you saw on history channel and nothing truly original or derived from your own life experience; and yet you tear down on others beliefs. 

Nah , grow up some more and really develop some sprituality and experience for yourself (not just some nerdy psuedo-science you read in a book or saw on TV)


----------



## TomK

Ninae said:


> And I'm accused of promoting fringe-beliefs which don't have anything constructive to offer anyone.



First thing you should know about Bible and THE LORD, reincarnation and Bible don't go hand in hand. There are some references about that in early days of Christian faith but I didn't examine that good enough. Long story short, it no longer has a place in belief in Christian God. You go to heaven, you live once. That's what you settle for with these guys. Sure, my theory could be crazy, I read a lot, used some common sense, people always killed each other for religious reasons. Too bad it was the primary reason. A lot of scum walks this earth, praising God and doing all sorts of evil shit to other people, I can't stand that. But I don't think being an Atheist bulldog is anything more constructive than talking snakes and babies with wings.


----------



## murphythecat

But I have to ask you guys, whats the point to try to know how we were created? how would that change the inherent insatisfaction in life and help for the search of peace and happiness.


----------



## murphythecat

what I dont understand about christians is why this belief in god. the feeling of god you've mentioned earlier is simply feeling love. I feel love most of the time and its not because im in special contact with god, but because im purifying my thoughts and heart content.
how can one base his life on a concept he can never be sure is very troublesome to me. not insult intend, im just curious





TomK said:


> First thing you should know about Bible and THE LORD, reincarnation and Bible don't go hand in hand. There are some references about that in early days of Christian faith but I didn't examine that good enough. Long story short, it no longer has a place in belief in Christian God. You go to heaven, you live once. That's what you settle for with these guys. Sure, my theory could be crazy, I read a lot, used some common sense, people always killed each other for religious reasons. Too bad it was the primary reason. A lot of scum walks this earth, praising God and doing all sorts of evil shit to other people, I can't stand that. But I don't think being an Atheist bulldog is anything more constructive than talking snakes and babies with wings.


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## motiv311

its not your theory, its like every kid who is in 10th grade's theory.... its the history channel (H2 because just plain history channel wouldn't ever call that history) its a dumb thing to try and take on like 5 people who have sincere spiritual practices and beliefs, especially Ninae cause its like a full time job for her, and her beliefs are at least original and well researched.


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## murphythecat

but believing in god is original?
do you think ridiculizing and insulting one spirituality is a good way to help him or that it makes you happy?


motiv311 said:


> its not your theory, its like every kid who is in 10th grade's theory.... its the history channel (H2 because just plain history channel wouldn't ever call that history) its a dumb thing to try and take on like 5 people who have sincere spiritual practices and beliefs, especially Ninae cause its like a full time job for her, and her beliefs are at least original and well researched.


----------



## TomK

motiv311 said:


> TomK
> God that great! ^ talk about dumb, ok so you heard of zecharia sitchen , and you know a few misinterpreted facts about brain power and genetics. How are we flawed? Genetically we are pretty fucking amazing, because of evolution we are prone to DNA forking and therefore certain diseases and mutations .... but i've seen human beings do impossible and amazing things. Such as a blind man who can see wearing a blindfold.
> 
> the annunaki are "those who from heaven to earth came" and they supposedly taught us civilization and helped teach us how to quarry stone and use technology. They were supposedely quite tall and could possibly control their appearance as we were not allowed to depict them in their original form. It is possible that they were here mining gold , and we helped them out with that. Yeah their is some evidence to support that stuff, but truth be told its quite difficult to be sure because the tablets that sitchen translated off are so ancient that no one can really understand the writing for sure; sitchen is one of like 4 that can even claim to make heads or tails of those writings. And besides all that, those ideas can still fit in my belief structure, and that of the other two with whom you were pointlessly debating.
> 
> Its funny , because all you have really is something you saw on history channel and nothing truly original or derived from your own life experience; and yet you tear down on others beliefs.
> 
> Nah , grow up some more and really develop some sprituality and experience for yourself (not just some nerdy psuedo-science you read in a book or saw on TV)



That's all great. Unless your father has schizophrenia and can't cross the road without a helping hand. Or wipe his nose. Hey, I guess we're all amazing in different ways. Right? Even if you shit your own pants listening to radio. Someone will mop it up, eventually. Not God though. He just makes freaks...


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## Ninae

Buddhism just conceptualises "God" in a different way. It's not incompatible with God-centred belief-systems unless you want it to be. To me, the existence of a God both makes sense, resonates, and has been proven to me subjectively, so I'll hold to that for now.


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## Ninae

TomK said:


> Not God though. He just makes freaks...



He made you.


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## TomK

Ninae said:


> He made you.



I have no problem with that. 

If I was God every man would be able to live his own life.


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## Ninae

So you imply that God is not doing his best as far as the circumstances allow?


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## TomK

Ninae said:


> So you imply that God is not doing his best as far as the circumstances allow?



Yes. 

If you intend to judge someone by choices he makes in life, you make him sane. Not insane. Or is that too much to ask from God almighty?


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## murphythecat

theres not even close to a god in theravada buddhism. its not a belief system at all, its a practice based on experience to experience for all if they make the practice. 

what do you mean by ''Buddhism just conceptualises "God" in a different way''

if there was a perfect being who created us, he wouldnt care to judge who we are. if anything, we are the god, each of one of us are our own creator and judgin others isnt going to help anything, not them nor us. 



Ninae said:


> Buddhism just conceptualises "God" in a different way. It's not incompatible with God-centred belief-systems unless you want it to be. To me, the existence of a God both makes sense, resonates, and has been proven to me subjectively, so I'll hold to that for now.


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## Ninae

Well, more like they see God as the underlying whole or one consciousness behind the illusions, or the universal divine stream we can all tune into. I find that concept of God works as well.


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## murphythecat

god? what is god? the divine stream? 
why arent you always connected to it? how to connect oneselves to it and be always connected to it?


Ninae said:


> Well, more like they see God as the underlying whole or one consciousness behind the illusions, or the universal divine stream we can all tune into. I find that concept of God works as well.


----------



## Ninae

You're always connected to it on an unconscious level. It's what gives you life and consciousness. But realising it on a conscious level is a whole other thing.


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## murphythecat

Ninae said:


> You're always connected to it on an unconscious level. It's what gives you life and consciousness. But realising it on a conscious level is a whole other thing.


to be always connected to it would be to feel it all the time. if its unconscious, its the same to say that you arent experiencing it right now even if its there all along, therefore you arent living it. 
but how can one believe that after life, suddently one will be allowed to experience that heaven. why not now? why would god only permit you to experience heaven after all that suffering?

so god would be the objective reality, the nirvana state, from buddhism, which is perfect and permanent contentment, happiness and peace.

however, theres not a lot of instruction on how to get there besides loving and be devoted to people, which I doubt allow one to find that heaven within permanently.


----------



## Ninae

I know, it's the most complex mystery in the world, no less.
It's not meant to be easy.


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## murphythecat

Ninae said:


> I know, it's the most complex mystery in the world, no less.
> It's not meant to be easy.


it isnt very complicated, hard yes, but if you think its a mystery that is complex, you may put serious blockage toward your spiritual life. Im not saying your not spiritual, everyone is a spiritual being.

All I know, is that one cannot have a spiritual life and accept oneselves with negativity, judgments, hatred. anytime one realize that he is entertaining the feeling and ideas of hate, judgments, critic, resentments, fear, one need to substitute with something wholesome. 
we should all breath in peace and expire love from the heart. When one realize he has control over how he feel and what he thinks, this is the beginning of the liberation imo


----------



## motiv311

Ninae said:


> You're always connected to it on an unconscious level. It's what gives you life and consciousness. But realising it on a conscious level is a whole other thing.



exactly ^ you go girl 

all these anti-religion , anti-god sheeple , just following the trends without any significant introspection. People who automatically blame "God" for all the worlds problems, for republicans, ... people who complain that god is letting us go insane or letting the whales die.... Just cause God could save everyone and everything doesn't mean he/it is going to ... On Earth we are evolving and in order for us to reach our highest potential we have to be allowed to be fucked up and fuck things up; until we realize that our highest ambitions should be love and peace and spiritual progression. 

How many of you actually have read the bible? (gasps!) Oh the thought is most disconcerting i'm sure.... Or how many of you have tried a sincere prayer? Maybe even speaking it aloud in private? Maybe you should check those items off, (with sincerity) before you write off god so fast.


----------



## Ninae

It's like people project their own problems onto God or believe the state of the world means God has to be some kind of monster. When in reality, if they were to encounter God, they would have to suffer quite the opposite. Or be faced with something so elevated it would be almost painful for them to endure, and also make them feel very humbled, not to mention ashamed of how they have thought of divine.

But this notion that an average human being can be somehow superior to God, and that God is somehow lacking, is seriously moronic and I don't understand where these ideas come from. I don't care if you're the most intelligent person the world has seen, you're still no more than a cell in God's brain. Or, more likely, an atom making up one of the molecyles in one of the cells in God's "brain", if even that. 

Too many people blame God, or something outside of themselves, for their lack of spiritual experience or proof of God's existence. When the problem always lies within yourself and God doesn't just show up automatically and hit you like a ton of bricks for no reason. The mystic experience can be subtle, but it is real.


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## murphythecat

I just wonder how can anyone believe in the bible? 
its written by mens, not god. 

We are god (creator), each of every one is his own god that must purify itself to perfection indeed to attain perfect happiness and contentment and peace. Every action we make create tons of effect in the world and we better take responsibility of our actions and what we desire in life because it affects everyone.

heaven can be now and can only be now, not at the time of death. If you suffer right now, its your own fault, not god plan.


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## Ninae

The Bible is like a dirty window giving a dim view into the heavenly things.


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## d-nihl

As long as your personal self is in a state of so called "happiness" I think you are on the right track.


----------



## Nom de Plume

d-nihl said:


> As long as your personal self is in a state of so called "happiness" I think you are on the right track.



Everyone is severely off track, if that is to be the case. Because of what philosophers and some types of economists and other social scientists term the "hedonic treadmill", true and unalloyed happiness is as rare—in our inordinately hedonistic and quick-fix world, wherein people are either of the opinion that happiness can be bought from some Benny Hinn epigone for only  5 easy payments of $19.95. (less shipping & handling), chased down or pursued like a criminal perpetrator resisting arrest, or attained through intensive and faithful dedication to some eclectic religious praxis—as permanent ego dissolution or moksha. 

The hedonic treadmill, for those to whom the concept is unfamiliar, is fortunately easy to define and comprehend. Some definitions, with references, are:

1. _ "The tendency of a person to remain at a relatively stable level of happiness despite a change in fortune or the achievement of major goals. According to the hedonic treadmill, as a person makes more money, expectations and desires rise in tandem, which results in no permanent gain in happiness." _ 

2. _"The hedonic treadmill is a theory that people return to a relatively stationary level of happiness, sometimes considered a happiness “set point.” Although efforts or interventions to improve happiness have a transient effect, individuals inevitably return to their original happiness set point after a short period of time. [...] You essentially have a set level of happiness where you consistently remain. When good things happen, that level of happiness can spike up. When bad things happen, that level of happiness can dip down. After good and bad events in your life, you eventually return to your set level of happiness."_

3. _ "The hedonic treadmill theory explains the oft-held observation that rich people are no happier than poor people, and that those with severe money problems are sometimes quite happy. The theory supports the argument that money does not buy happiness and that the pursuit of money as a way to reach this goal is futile. Good and bad fortunes may temporarily affect how happy a person is, but most people will end up back at their normal level of happiness."_

4. _ "The hedonic treadmill, also known as hedonic adaptation, is the supposed tendency of humans to quickly return to a relatively stable level of happiness despite major positive or negative events or life changes.[1] According to this theory, as a person makes more money, expectations and desires rise in tandem, which results in no permanent gain in happiness. Brickman and Campbell coined the term in their essay "Hedonic Relativism and Planning the Good Society" (1971).[2] During the late 1990s, the concept was modified by Michael Eysenck, a British psychologist, to become the current "hedonic treadmill theory" which compares the pursuit of happiness to a person on a treadmill, who has to keep walking just to stay in the same place. The concept dates back millennia, to such writers as St. Augustine, cited in Robert Burton's 1621 Anatomy of Melancholy: "A true saying it is, Desire hath no rest, is infinite in itself, endless, and as one calls it, a perpetual rack, or horse-mill."" _ 

References: 
1. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hedonic-treadmill.asp
2. http://www.gostrengths.com/what-is-the-hedonic-treadmill/ 
3. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hedonic-treadmill.asp
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill


----------



## One Thousand Words

Ninae said:


> The Bible is like a dirty window giving a dim view into the heavenly things.



I prefer to build a fire and sleep out under the stars any way.


----------



## swilow

Ninae said:


> The Bible is like a dirty window giving a dim view into the heavenly things.



Well phrased Ninae


----------



## ForEverAfter

> heaven can be now and can only be now, not at the time of death.



You've clearly never died.



> If you suffer right now, its your own fault, not god plan.



I know your English isn't great, but WTF?
If you suffer, it's your fault?

Suffering is an unavoidable part of life.
If your child dies at the age of 3, and you suffer, how is that your (or anyone's) fault?
Suffering has a function. It isn't a mistake.

...

There is no correct path.
Human beings are exactly what they're supposed to be.

What you're describing sounds like most of the people on the planet are doing something wrong.
That isn't the case. Without suffering the world would cease to function.


----------



## murphythecat

Physical pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional. theres two type of pain, physical and mental. you cannot control how your body suffer, but you can control and train your mind to eventually not suffer from physical pain. 

you can only find true happiness right now. if you dont search for it now and dont work for it, I am sure you wont find it permanently after death.

and yes, we all are very confuse and doesnt live upright lives and we will suffer as long as we don't realize where and how to seek happiness.


----------



## ForEverAfter

You're being absurdly idealistic.
Mental suffering is not optional for many people.
It (mental suffering) is just as functional as physical suffering.
Everything is functional. That is how evolution (and the universe) operates.

If mental suffering is something that we shouldn't opt for, are you saying that we shouldn't grieve?
If we're raped, should we not suffer? (As a function.)

Suffering is not meaningless.
On the contrary, according to Buddha life is Dukkha... and Dukkha includes suffering.



> you can control and train your mind to eventually not suffer from physical pain



How do you know?
Do you have a chronic pain disorder?
Do you have late stage bowel cancer?

There is nobody on the planet well trained enough to not suffer while being skinned alive.
The suffering that pertains to physical pain serves a very real purpose.



> you can only find true happiness right now. if you dont search for it now and dont work for it, I am sure you wont find it permanently after death.



Buddhism is not about the pursuit of happiness, at all.
That is a modern western construct, and it isn't achievable (IMO) as a consistent state of being.

Heaven / Hell refer to the transitional period between life and death.
I have experienced both.


----------



## PORB

james hillmans theories on dreams underworld unconscious and soul. this is all


----------



## murphythecat

Foreverafter, im a buddhist and believe what the monks teach and what the buddha teach. I also practice everyday and it is changing everything in me and my life. 

Judge all you want but it wont change the fact that in this life, as long as we continue to live how we live, suffering is bound to happen.
we are the one who creates mental suffering, no one else. 

I never said suffering is useless, its indeed our biggest teacher. But the mental stress we inflict ourselfves with our negativity, hate, judgement, ill will are all caused by us and the way we react to outer conditions.
mental suffering is caused by you and your reaction. pain is certain, not mental pain if you develop your mind and train your mind to always love, equanimity: basically the four supreme emotion

all unwholseomethoughts and negative thought makes you suffer. if you grief, yes theres a way to not suffer from it because it wont change anything to lament the lost and remember over and over what you miss about your lost. If someone get raped, sure she will suffer while it happens as she isnt arahant, but after that, as we can clearly observe, some girls get back on their feet fast while others will be traumatized all their life. its all up to the mental capacities and how fast the mind is able to let go of the past experienced.

yes, life is dukkha and according to the buddha, theres the path to liberation and the ending of dukkha.

buddhism is liberation and to find your inner being that is pure and joyful no matter the outer circomstance.

About chronic pain, when you meditate and are concentrated, you do not feel the body anymore once your in the jhanas, so you cannot be beset by physical pain. but, if your not a arahant, yes you will suffer from physical and mental pain, but once your a arahant, physical pain is all its left, no more mental pain.


----------



## ForEverAfter

I didn't mean to come across as judging you. Often my tone isn't clear.
Your post cleared quite a few things up. I'll keep my response relatively brief.

I agree with you about grief, to a certain extent.
But whether or not mental pain (in general) is a "certainty", it has a function.
Regarding chronic pain and meditation: you can't be in a deep meditative trance all the time.
So, as I said earlier, you cannot _sustain_ a state void of suffering.



> If someone get raped, sure she will suffer while it happens as she isnt a rahant, but after that, as we can clearly observe, some girls get back on their feet fast while others will be traumatized all their life. its all up to the mental capacities and how fast the mind is able to let go of the past experienced.



Males are raped, also...
As for suffering from rape due to a lack of enlightenment (you said "she" isn't arahant), do you think it is a good thing to not suffer while being raped?
This is a good example of the functionality of suffering. It is integral, in many ways, to our survival as a species and our survival as individuals.



> yes, life is dukkha and according to the buddha, theres the path to liberation and the ending of dukkha.



If life is dukkha, the liberation from dukkha is not life.
The Tibetan Buddhists would argue that liberation is death.
What denomination of Buddhism do you identify with?

...

And, what do you think about this:


*NSFW*: 











(Warning: graphic footage.)


----------



## murphythecat

im Theravada which is the closest to the buddha teaching. and what the monk did here, I do not think was good for him at all but I dont want to judge, but if he wasnt a arahant, then he has lost a precious life and I find it very weird. if Tibetan buddhist say that liberation only happens after death, this is in direct contradictory with the buddha teaching as a human life is precious especially when are in contact with the teaching of a buddha. form what Ive read about tibettan and zen buddhism, some of their notion would be completely dismmissed from the buddha and Id be very careful to trust any other sects then the one closest to the buddha teaching which is theravada.

its important to understand that meditation is only the mean to gains insight into your inner self and to find liberation. indeed, the buddha noticed to when he was in meditative absorption, he was totally happy and joyful and peaceful, but when he came out of the meditation, all the dukkha would come back. hence his search for the ending of all suffering not dependant on concentration as even meditation states are impermanent. but meditation is needed in order to reach the inner self and to remove the ego centricity in order to see what really there all along, within us. The insight you gain from the jhanas are invaluable. for example, after the third jhana, you clearly realize that there cannot be contentment in the mind if they are wishes in the mind. After the first jhana, you realize that the experience of the jhana and the joyful sensation that happen in the first jhana is much much more blissful and satisfactory then any pleasure you can obtain with the 5 senses and with the pleasure of sense contact. therefore you realize that you have within yourself something much more pleasurable that can be attain, at all time, with concentration. already, liberation begins as you dont seek all day long pleasure with the 5 senses and you dont lament over stuff you cant have in the world because you've experienced and understood that the pleasure of concentration is far greater and deeper then anything the world can brings and that it is within, available right here right now.

mental pain has no goal, it only brings more suffering and only a fool makes himself suffer. our mental suffering is automatic, our mind is out of control and buddhism is all about training the mind to take control of the mind. why out of control? because he thinks stuff we dont want to think, he hate stuff automatically. we must learn to see all his tendencies are try to replace by the opposite: the negativity with the positivity. eventually, mindfulness of thought becomes habitual and hatred will never enter his mind.




heres a buddha explanation on pain:


"When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows; in the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it as though joined with it. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person joined with birth, aging, & death; with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is joined, I tell you, with suffering & stress.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.

"As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no passion-obsession with regard to that feeling of pleasure obsesses him. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no ignorance-obsession with regard to that feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain obsesses him.

"Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.


----------



## ForEverAfter

me said:
			
		

> do you think it is a good thing to not suffer while being raped?



... and what do you think about self-immolation, as a result of fundamental Buddhism?



			
				you said:
			
		

> its important to understand that meditation is only the mean to gains insight into your inner self and to find liberation. indeed, the buddha noticed to when he was in meditative absorption, he was totally happy and joyful and peaceful, but when he came out of the meditation, all the dukkha would come back. hence his search for the ending of all suffering not dependant on concentration as even meditation states are impermanent.



The Buddha says everything is impermanent, including happiness.
That is one of the foundations of Buddhism.

Yet you're talking about achieving a state in which happiness is not impermanent.
I don't think the Buddha believed that this could be sustained indefinitely.

You said he talks about the path towards liberation.
Do you think he, himself, achieved that liberation?
If so, wouldn't that contradict the idea that everything is impermanent?

I see no issue with striving for perfection. This is how we excel, in every field.
But we must understand, while doing so, that - try as we might - we cannot touch the horizon.



			
				Buddha said:
			
		

> Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.



So, in order to not suffer mental pain, you must also go without mental pleasure?

If the world was entirely occupied with Buddhist monks, it would be a pretty boring place.
Monks tend to be a bit boring, don't you think?

These guys spend their whole lives attempting to transcend themselves.
Transcending pleasure and pain. Transcending their physical form.
I'm not sure what is left, really.

Personally, I like the roller coaster of life.
I like the pleasure and the pain.
Suffering is interesting.

Without suffering, we wouldn't be here.


----------



## murphythecat

hi, interesting questions!
I dont think self immolation would have been recommended by the buddha, and from what I have read about some buddhism sects, I doubt the buddha would have recommended it, actually im sure he would have disagreed. Tibettan buddhism has made a lot of change over the buddha teachings and could be considered not totally fidel to the simple teaching of the buddha.

The world is impermanent and your body is too. Everything in the world is impermanent, your mind also as its always changing. Buddhism is about awakening ''oneself'' to the ultimate reality within, nibbana and to liberate your mind of all its negative tendencies. nibbanna is the unconditioned reality which is not impermanent because its not conditioned by outer conditions.
its also quite clear that nibbana is not a place, but its a feeling.


of course, the buddha was fully enlightened and also so many arahant after him. Ayya khema and ajahn chah are likely arahant.

there nothing to transcend, especially not you as the self is a illusion. The me, the egocentricity, is the number one cause of your suffering and pains in life. its not transcendin pleasure and pain, its udnerstanding their impermanent reality and therefore not be dependant upon those to be happy and content.

when you remove all the judgments, the ego centricity, the hate, ect, the craving, the desire, the wish. what is left? nibbanna which is the end of all suffering and the unconditioned reality within, the inner reality.


----------



## ForEverAfter

How do you know the Buddha was "fully" enlightened?
At what stage of his life did he become enlightened?
(I don't see how you can be partially enlightened.)

I like Tibetan Buddhism, personally.
It has altered some of the traditional teachings, but in a good way IMO.
Buddha was just a man. He is not infallible. His teachings are imperfect.

...

I'd like you to respond to these comments/questions, if you don't mind:



> do you think it is a good thing to not suffer while being raped?





> Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, in order to not suffer mental pain, you must also go without mental pleasure?
> 
> If the world was entirely occupied with Buddhist monks, it would be a pretty boring place.
> Monks tend to be a bit boring, don't you think?
> 
> These guys spend their whole lives attempting to transcend themselves.
> Transcending pleasure and pain. Transcending their physical form.
> I'm not sure what is left, really.
Click to expand...


----------



## murphythecat

You can only know once you begin to practice. once you have experienced the control over your thoughts and acheived concentration in meditation, your mind stop all is doubts, which is a really important hindrance, and your mind see that wow, this was very pleasant, very calm and that maybe my teacher and the monks and the buddha knew something I didnt.
we all think we know more, we know better, and this is a big problem as its a blockage to the practice.

heres a wiki article:
The four stages of attainment

The Sangha of the Tathagata's disciples (Ariya Sangha) can be described as including four or eight kinds of individuals. There are four [groups of noble disciples] when path and fruit are taken as pairs, and eight groups of individuals, when each path and fruit are taken separately:

    (1) the path to stream-entry; (2) the fruition of stream-entry;
    (3) the path to once-returning; (4) the fruition of once-returning;
    (5) the path to non-returning; (6) the fruition of non-returning;
    (7) the path to arahantship; (8) the fruition of arahantship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment


----------



## murphythecat

*So, in order to not suffer mental pain, you must also go without mental pleasure?*
once you remove mental pain, mental pleasure is a part of the factor of enlightenment.
there four supreme mental emotion: loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity.
what the buddha meant was when one have physical pleasure, it doesnt get attached to it as he know its impermanenet. on the contrary, mental pleasure is present at all time and its one of the factor of nibbanna. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Factors_of_Enlightenment
*
do you think it is a good thing to not suffer while being raped? *
it would be better to not suffer from it mentally. if he hurts you, physical pain is unavoidable, but lamenting ect will not bring happiness. dont you think?

*If the world was entirely occupied with Buddhist monks, it would be a pretty boring place.
Monks tend to be a bit boring, don't you think?*
I think the world would be a wonderful place where everyone would grow and purify their being.




ForEverAfter said:


> How do you know the Buddha was "fully" enlightened?
> At what stage of his life did he become enlightened?
> (I don't see how you can be partially enlightened.)
> 
> I like Tibetan Buddhism, personally.
> It has altered some of the traditional teachings, but in a good way IMO.
> Buddha was just a man. He is not infallible. His teachings are imperfect.
> 
> ...
> 
> I'd like you to respond to these comments/questions, if you don't mind:


You can only know once you begin to practice and learn to meditate. once you have experienced the control over your thoughts and achieved concentration in meditation, your mind stop some of his doubts, which is a really detrimental hindrance, and your mind see that wow, this was very pleasant, very calm and that maybe my teacher and the monks and the buddha know something I dont.
we all think we know more, we know better, and this is a big problem as its a blockage to the practice.



heres a wiki article:
The four stages of attainment

The Sangha of the Tathagata's disciples (Ariya Sangha) can be described as including four or eight kinds of individuals. There are four [groups of noble disciples] when path and fruit are taken as pairs, and eight groups of individuals, when each path and fruit are taken separately:

    (1) the path to stream-entry; (2) the fruition of stream-entry;
    (3) the path to once-returning; (4) the fruition of once-returning;
    (5) the path to non-returning; (6) the fruition of non-returning;
    (7) the path to arahantship; (8) the fruition of arahantship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment

fully enlightened is arahant


----------



## ForEverAfter

I've practiced meditation and studied Buddhism.
I do not think it is the answer, any more than I think Christianity is the answer.
There is much to be gained from both.

Buddhists tend to treat Buddha like God, from my observations.
His teachings must be questioned.... The assumption should not be made that he was perfect.
Same goes for Christ.

They were just men, assuming that JC was actually a real person.
Extraordinary men, no doubt, but men nonetheless... and, men are imperfect.
It is dangerous to treat anything as gospel, whether it is the NT or the teachings of Buddha.
IMO, doing this interferes with the (endless) path towards liberation.


----------



## murphythecat

buddha like god? not even close. he is our teacher.

buddha was indeed a men, but his teaching go beyond and brings ultimate peace and once you purify your mind, you will know that you can become perfect and most importantly, that you must. for your own sake, you absolutely must and its the ultimate and only goal worth pursuing

I think that you must questioned yourself at this point and maybe admit that you may not know everything there is to know and that others may be able to help you.


----------



## ForEverAfter

> once you remove mental pain, mental pleasure is a part of the factor of enlightenment.
> there four supreme mental emotion: loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity.
> what the buddha meant was when one have physical pleasure, it doesnt get attached to it as he know its impermanenet. on the contrary, mental pleasure is present at all time and its one of the factor of nibbanna.



So in order to overcome mental suffering, you have to go without physical pleasure?
If so, I'd rather have both.



> it would be better to not suffer from it mentally. if he hurts you, physical pain is unavoidable, but lamenting ect will not bring happiness. dont you think?



Women rape people too.
It is healthier, in my opinion, to suffer if you're being raped.
If you burn your hand on the stove, you learn not to touch hot things.
Similarly, the mental suffering you endure while being raped has a (societal) function.
If nobody suffered from rape, then it would happen more often and without consequence.
Theoretically, you may have a point. But, in practice, it has quite horrible implications. Don't you think?



> If the world was entirely occupied with Buddhist monks, it would be a pretty boring place.
> Monks tend to be a bit boring, don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> I think the world would be a wonderful place where everyone would grow and purify their being.
Click to expand...


Then, why are you using the internet?
It is a construct of a non-monk world.

Personally I like art, music and technology.
In a world occupied entirely by monks, there wouldn't be much passion.
There certainly wouldn't be Elvis Presley or Michael Jackson.
There wouldn't be Jackson Pollock or Salvidor Dali.

If you want to live in a world entirely occupied by monks, why don't you go live in a monastery?
(I suspect this is a comment that might be misinterpreted tonally... Keep in mind, I mean no harm.)


----------



## ForEverAfter

> I think that you must questioned yourself at this point and maybe admit that you may not know everything there is to know and that others may be able to help you.



You're making assumptions about me.
I don't think I know everything, any more than you do.
Of course others can help me.

I have benefited a great deal from Buddhism, Christianity and many other faiths.
Perhaps, if you don't mind the suggestion, Buddhism isn't the answer to all life's questions.



> buddha like god?



You talk about Buddha as if he is infallible.
You sound a bit like a Christian fundamentalist talking about Christ.



> you will know that you can become perfect and most importantly, that you must. for your own sake, you absolutely must and its the ultimate and only goal worth pursuing



Being enlightened is not the only goal worth pursuing.
The life of a monk does not appeal to me, much.


----------



## murphythecat

I know you mean no harm foreverafter 

Im not even close to being a monk, and im only here to help.

of course, you need to first have experienced the pleasure and relieves of concentration before stopping the craving of the sensual pleasure. it doesnt mean you wont stop experiencing pleasurable sense contact once your a monk, but you will stop being so attached and dependant upon the sense contact for your happiness. even moreso, every little detail of reality will bring enormous joy and a arahant is permanently filled with inner joy. 

right now, the whole basis of your happiness is dependant upon the exterial world.
meanwhile, theres something inside of you that can bring thousands time more pleasure, but you dont know it because of the 5 hindrances, because of what the ego tells you it wants.

Of course, someone who is being raped (not sure why you keep on mentioning that) brings suffering and that person will need eventually to forget about it and try to be happy no matter what happened to her. dont you think?


and yes, once my practice is more advanced, i will get ordained.


----------



## murphythecat

ForEverAfter said:


> You're making assumptions about me.
> I don't think I know everything, any more than you do.
> Of course others can help me.
> 
> I have benefited a great deal from Buddhism, Christianity and many other faiths.
> Perhaps, if you don't mind the suggestion, Buddhism isn't the answer to all life's questions.
> .


youve shown in this conversation how may now know enough of the dharma teaching to make a logical conclusion about the veracity of the teaching. Imo, anyone who understand fully the dharma and begins the practice wholeheartedly will remove, quite fast, all the doubts he may have as he will experience a true change in oneselve. Once you experience a ceoncetration state in meditation, which is already hard to achieve in the beginning and takes a couple of active week of practice, you experience clearly the benefit of no thoughts and to be concentrated to the breath (for example). you realize how beautiful every single breath is, how calm you really are and how peaceful and happy you are, when you remove all those thoughts and opinions.


ayya khema is a great starting point. ajahn brahm also is a great teacher.


----------



## ForEverAfter

I don't need Buddhism to experience God / enlightenment.
It, as a faith, doesn't have ownership over the divine any more than any other faith does.



> right now, the whole basis of your happiness is dependant upon the exterial world.
> meanwhile, theres something inside of you that can bring thousands time more pleasure, but you dont know it because of the 5 hindrances, because of what the ego tells you it wants.



Again, you're making assumptions about me.
I have experienced "heaven" / "enlightenment" briefly, through (non-religious) chanting / meditation combined with a near death experience.
What you're saying isn't dissimilar to Christians saying that you need to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
I don't need to have a relationship with Christ, nor do I need to closely follow the teachings of Buddha.

Buddhism and Christianity have only existed for so long and nobody has ownership over God / enlightenment.
On the contrary, strictly identifying with any particular faith is (IMO) counterproductive towards enlightenment.

You know that saying, "If you see Buddha on the road, kill him"?
What are your thoughts on that, as it applies to your intention towards ordainment?



> Of course, someone who is being raped (not sure why you keep on mentioning that) brings suffering and that person will need eventually to forget about it and try to be happy no matter what happened to her. dont you think?



I mention it because it presents a breaking point, in terms of your ideology.
You said "it would be better to not suffer from (rape) mentally", but that is not the case.
If a child, for example, did not suffer. Then wouldn't it be (sort of) okay for people to rape children?
Of course it is good to overcome trauma, but the trauma (suffering) itself is functional.
Sometimes we need to suffer.

You could certainly argue the point that we suffer too much.
But I don't see how you can argue sensibly that we shouldn't suffer at all.
Our species would not have survived if we hadn't suffered throughout the ages.

...

Why is it, do you think, that so many Buddhist monks perform self-immolation?


----------



## murphythecat

buddhism is not about faith. even the buddha mention dont believe me, practice what I teach and try for yourself.
''
The Buddha never encouraged 'blind faith'. He encouraged saddha or confidence in his teachings, after considering, 'tasting', and testing them in one's life.''

about killing the buddha.
1. Killing the Buddha By Sam Harris
“Kill the Buddha,” says the old koan. “Kill Buddhism,” says Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith, who argues that Buddhism’s philosophy, insight, and practices would benefit more people if they were not presented as a religion.
The ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi is supposed to have said, “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.” 
''for very many people the religious aspect of Buddhism makes it a deal breaker that stops them from developing sila, samadhi and panna. Keep in mind also, that when the Buddha was teaching, he didn't set out to create a new religion. What he found was that suffering was universal and the remedy to suffering was likewise universal. Secular approaches to Dhamma have been very successful in making it accessible to a whole lot of people for whom Buddhism is "just another organised religion"
again about killing the buddha:
It's important to see the real meaning of the quote. Since it was spoken by a Zen master, it'd best be explained by another master from the same tradition:

”According to Buddhism, knowledge is the greatest obstacle to awakening. If we are trapped by our knowledge we will not have the possibility of going beyond it and realizing awakening. When we believe something to be the absolute truth and cling to it, we cannot be open to new ideas. Even if truth itself is knocking at our door, we will not let it in. The Zen student must strive to be free of attachments to knowledge and be open so that truth may enter. The teacher must also help in these efforts. Zen master Lin Chi once said: “If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet the Patriarch, kill the Patriarch”. For one who only has devotion, this declaration is terribly confusing. But its effect depends on the mentality and capacity of the one who hears. If the student is strong, she will have the capacity to liberate herself from all authority and realize ulitmate reality in herself. Truth is not a concept. If we cling to our concepts, we lose reality. That is why it is necessary to “kill” our concepts so that reality can reveal itself. To kill the Buddha is the only way to see the Buddha. Any concept we have of the Buddha can impede us from seeing the Buddha in person”

~~ Thich Nhat Hanh - Excerpt from Zen Keys ~~


you should stop comparing christianity to buddhism. 

of course, we suffer tremendously. and thats why we need to train our mind to stop most of the suffering as most of it is self induced.


----------



## ForEverAfter

I'm comparing Buddhism to Christianity largely because you're presenting Buddhism as the ultimate path to God / enlightenment.
Ideally neither Christianity or Buddhism should be a religion, but they both are.

A religious adherence to Buddhism sometimes leads people to set themselves on fire, just as a religious adherence to Christianity sometimes leads to mortification of the flesh... There are undeniable similarities between Buddhism, when practiced religiously, and all other religions.

I'm not sure why I shouldn't compare them...?



> buddhism is not about faith. even the buddha mention dont believe me, practice what I teach and try for yourself.
> ''The Buddha never encouraged 'blind faith'. He encouraged saddha or confidence in his teachings, after considering, 'tasting', and testing them in one's life.''



With all due respect, I don't think that's what you're doing.



> “Kill the Buddha,” says the old koan. “Kill Buddhism,” says Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith, who argues that Buddhism’s philosophy, insight, and practices would benefit more people if they were not presented as a religion.



If you agree with this, then why become ordained?



> and thats why we need to train our mind to stop most of the suffering



Aha! So I was right.
You said stop most of the suffering.
So some suffering is required/unavoidable, yes?


----------



## Trying2Iso

IMO everyone makes their own decision as to what the "point" is in life, with some deciding that there is none.
I would include myself within that class.


----------



## ForEverAfter

Saying there is no point is like being an atheist, isn't it?
Just because you're not aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
There may be a point.

...

I enjoyed chatting with you, Murphy.
I'm going to finish watching Citizenfour now.


----------



## Trying2Iso

ForEverAfter said:


> Saying there is no point is like being an atheist, isn't it?
> Just because you're not aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> There may be a point.
> 
> ...
> 
> I enjoyed chatting with you, Murphy.
> I'm going to finish watching Citizenfour now.



I'm agnostic...
but i believe if a diety wanted there to be a point to life, he/she would have made some type of sign so we would know what that was.
how could he/she expect us to just guess?  and what?  go to hell because we guessed wrong?

i live a moral life, i follow my conscience.  but it's because i am a good person.  Not because i'm afraid of going to hell.


----------



## murphythecat

I think you didnt understood the explanation of why to kill the buddha. reread the quote.
it is quite clear that the problem with people, is that they see buddhism like a religion, when its absolutely not a religion, its a practice. and in order to become a buddha, you have to, eventually, kill the idea of the buddha and practice and forget about the goal completely only then will you be able to become a arahant. 

that person who sets himself on fire wouldnt have been approved by the buddha.

Becoming ordained is to be able to devote all my life to the practice. you cannot practice the jhanas then worry about your job, paying bills ect. 

yes suffering is. you cannot escape physical pain, but can escape mental suffering. but eventually, the physical pain will not bring mental pain and therefore you will still be filled with joy, and all the 7 factor of enlightenment even if you suffer physically

yes, there are similarities between all religions. but you shouldn't compare them or condemn them. you should, before judging their value, try it and practice it. only then will you know if it works.


----------



## ForEverAfter

I didn't misunderstand it.



> it is quite clear that the problem with people, is that they see buddhism like a religion



That is what you're doing...
Let me ask you this, will you renounce your ordainment at some point?
If not, aren't you refusing to "kill Buddha"?



> ts absolutely not a religion, its a practice



Christ didn't want to start a religion, either.
That doesn't prevent Christianity from being a religion.
You can practice the teachings of Christ, without being religious about it, just like Buddhism.
I don't see any difference.



> that person who sets himself on fire wouldnt have been approved by the buddha.



That's what you said last time about self-immolation.
I don't disagree with you. Of course Buddha wouldn't have approved.
And Christ wouldn't have approved of mortification of the flesh.
You're missing the point.

Buddhism, when treated as a religion, has negative consequences.
A huge number of monks, in many different countries, have set themselves on fire.
There is a correlation between religious Buddhism and self-immolation.



> Becoming ordained is to be able to devote all my life to the practice. you cannot practice the jhanas then worry about your job, paying bills



It is more difficult to practice in the real world, sure. That's why monks life simple lives.
I'm not convinced that it is impossible...

Becoming a Buddhist monk and living in a monastery isn't far removed from becoming a Roman Catholic monk and living in a monastery.
There are uncanny similarities between what you describe as a practice (Buddhist monks) and what you describe as religion (Catholic monks).
If you don't want to treat Buddhism as a religion, then don't. That's all I'm saying... Don't become ordained.



> yes, there are similarities between all religions. but you shouldn't compare them



Why?



> or condemn them.



I never did.



> you should, before judging their value, try it and practice it. only then will you know if it works.



I'm not saying it "doesn't work". I'm saying it's not the only path.
And I'm not judging Buddhism, either. I'm questioning your interpretation.


----------



## Trying2Iso

IMO Buddhism is the most intellectual of all the religions i've learned about.  Far moreso than any of the Abrahamic religions...
I read a bunch of good stuff on Buddhism, some online,
but for some reason i cannot post attachments right now (BL wont let me)


----------



## ForEverAfter

Trying21so said:
			
		

> Buddhism is the most intellectual of all the religions i've learned about



Buddhism is my favorite mainstream religion, but I don't think intellectual is the right word for it.
The simplicity of Buddha's teachings appeals to me. There is less room for misinterpretation.
It is not "complete", though. There is something to be gained from all religions.



			
				Trying2Iso said:
			
		

> i believe if a diety wanted there to be a point to life, he/she would have made some type of sign so we would know what that was.



I don't understand your logic.
The point might involve us not knowing the point.



			
				Trying2Iso said:
			
		

> how could he/she expect us to just guess?



Who said we're expected to guess?



			
				Trying2Iso said:
			
		

> and what? go to hell because we guessed wrong?



I'm seriously losing you, here.



			
				Trying2Iso said:
			
		

> i live a moral life, i follow my conscience. but it's because i am a good person. Not because i'm afraid of going to hell.



When did we start talking about hell?


----------



## murphythecat

re read the quote seriously

about killing the buddha.
1. Killing the Buddha By Sam Harris
“Kill the Buddha,” says the old koan. “Kill Buddhism,” says Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith, who argues that Buddhism’s philosophy, insight, and practices would benefit more people if they were not presented as a religion.
The ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi is supposed to have said, “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”
''for very many people the religious aspect of Buddhism makes it a deal breaker that stops them from developing sila, samadhi and panna. Keep in mind also, that when the Buddha was teaching, he didn't set out to create a new religion. What he found was that suffering was universal and the remedy to suffering was likewise universal. Secular approaches to Dhamma have been very successful in making it accessible to a whole lot of people for whom Buddhism is "just another organised religion"
again about killing the buddha:
It's important to see the real meaning of the quote. Since it was spoken by a Zen master, it'd best be explained by another master from the same tradition:

”According to Buddhism, knowledge is the greatest obstacle to awakening. If we are trapped by our knowledge we will not have the possibility of going beyond it and realizing awakening. When we believe something to be the absolute truth and cling to it, we cannot be open to new ideas. Even if truth itself is knocking at our door, we will not let it in. The Zen student must strive to be free of attachments to knowledge and be open so that truth may enter. The teacher must also help in these efforts. Zen master Lin Chi once said: “If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet the Patriarch, kill the Patriarch”. For one who only has devotion, this declaration is terribly confusing. But its effect depends on the mentality and capacity of the one who hears. If the student is strong, she will have the capacity to liberate herself from all authority and realize ulitmate reality in herself. Truth is not a concept. If we cling to our concepts, we lose reality. That is why it is necessary to “kill” our concepts so that reality can reveal itself. To kill the Buddha is the only way to see the Buddha. Any concept we have of the Buddha can impede us from seeing the Buddha in person”

you have to kill the idea of a buddha exterior of yourself. the buddha is just a men, but its his teaching you need to follow and practice what he teaches to realize what he realized which is nibbana.

why do you say I see buddhism as a religion? I keep on repeating its a practice.  yes, when seen as a religion, its detrimental. thats exactly why you have to ''kill the buddha''.

because theres no point in comparing anything. duality is a view point and the practice is to stop thinking and meditate to realize your inner being hidden under all those judgments, thoughts, and desire to compare, analyse, which blocks you from the truth within.

How could you know its not the only path? how can you claim such a thing when you know you havent practiced hard enough and long enough to be able to make a true and real opinion based on empiric experience.


----------



## Trying2Iso

ForEverAfter said:


> Buddhism is my favorite mainstream religion, but I don't think intellectual is the right word for it.
> The simplicity of Buddha's teachings appeals to me. There is less room for misinterpretation.
> It is not "complete", though. There is something to be gained from all religions.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand your logic.
> The point might involve us not knowing the point.
> 
> 
> 
> Who said we're expected to guess?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm seriously losing you, here.
> 
> 
> 
> When did we start talking about hell?



Why would a diety make a point to life, not reveal it, and not expect us to guess?
That essentially proves my point that there is no point to life... lol
Effectively, even if said diety made the point, that point doesn't matter, making the point pointless.

I have a conscience, i follow it, and i believe there is no point to life.


----------



## ForEverAfter

murphythecat said:
			
		

> re read the quote seriously



I have re-read it, twice.
You are misunderstanding some of what you quoted, IMO.
Some of it I simply disagree with.

Sam Harris, in your quote, extended "Kill Buddha" to "Kill Buddhism".
This means, to me, that you shouldn't identify as Buddhist and you certainly shouldn't become a monk.

...

If you need to follow Buddha, who did Buddha follow?
If he is just a man, as you agreed, then how did he achieve enlightenment without a Buddha?
Before Buddha, was nobody capable of enlightenment?

...

If it is a practice, for you, not a religion, then why become ordained?
Why call yourself a Buddhist?

I try to practice the basic tenants of Christianity, but I don't call myself Christian.
I refer to myself as a Buddhist Christian sometimes, but I'm not stuck to either ideology.
Buddha and Christ (if he indeed was a man) were just men. I am a man. I don't need either of them.



> When we believe something to be the absolute truth and cling to it, we cannot be open to new ideas. Even if truth itself is knocking at our door, we will not let it in.



I don't think you're living up to this.



> theres no point in comparing anything



Of course there is.
You've made lots of comparative statements, directly and by implication, throughout this thread.
For example, describing Buddhism as a practice means that you are differentiating it (comparatively) from religion.

...

You ask how I think you're treating Buddhism as a religion.
I'm going to answer in point form, for simplicity's sake.
(Bear with me. There are only two points.)

1. You say that Buddha is needed, like Christians say that Jesus is needed.
The implication being that before Buddhism / Christianity, there was no path towards enlightenment / God.

2. Your intention is to be ordained as a monk.
If I said my intention was to be ordained as a Roman Catholic monk, wouldn't you see that as a religious inclination?



> How could you know its not the only path? how can you claim such a thing when you know you havent practiced hard enough and long enough to be able to make a true and real opinion based on empiric experience.



I know it's not the only path, because I've traveled other paths.
How could you know it is the only path?


----------



## ForEverAfter

Trying2Iso said:
			
		

> I have a conscience, i follow it, and i believe there is no point to life.



You said you were agnostic, yet you have "atheistic" tendencies as far as the meaning of life goes.
I'm not sure how you can selectively agnostic. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
A lot of atheists misguidedly think they can logically disprove God.
Your logic (disproving the point of life) is as flawed as theirs.



			
				Trying2Iso said:
			
		

> Why would a diety make a point to life, not reveal it, and not expect us to guess?
> That essentially proves my point that there is no point to life... lol
> Effectively, even if said diety made the point, that point doesn't matter, making the point pointless.



Here's a hypothetical.

If God is everything and exists in a timeless void, perhaps He feels the "need" to split / fragment His consciousness in order to stave off (His version of) boredom/insanity... In other words: perhaps we are fractions of God, with retrograde amnesia. If so, we cannot know we are God for this theory to function and - therefore - the point of our lives involves not knowing the point of our lives... Similarly, when we dream, we do not know that we are dreaming. Becoming conscious of the dream / achieving lucidity while unconscious is analogous to enlightenment. It is a function of dreams, that we are unaware that they are dreams. This does not render them pointless.


----------



## murphythecat

the buddha is the one who found the path without any teacher. You cannot become a buddha anymore as the buddha is the one who found the path.  Everybody who follows the buddha teaching can become enlightened, just like gautamma buddha, but we call all other enlightened being arahant, not buddha. A buddha is one who find enlightenment without any teacher which is not the case anymore as all arahant have followed the teaching of the buddha. I hope that is clear. 

the buddha only showed the way to our inner truth and showed the dharma. the buddha isnt a god, he simply showed the way to nibbana and he is the one to have found it. we all can acheive what the buddha acheived and thats what his teaching is all about.

you misunderstand what I quote. but you dont believe me and think I assume and worst,t hat I dont understand what I quote. I dont assume. its evident from your post that you misunderstood the meaning behind:``killing the buddha'' 

 religion is such a broad concept, it doesnt mean anything. words doesnt mean anything, they are just trying to explain a reality. its like trying to describe the mango with words, it will never gives you the experience. you have to put a mango in your month to know its taste. so, you have to practice in order to understand the dharma. otherwise, its all a intellectual concept, and to practice the dharma, you have to open your heart and feel it and give yourself to the meditation and stop doubting the teaching.


I understand where you come from foreverafter, and just like christianity, or hindouism they all promote love. its the prerequisite. so, men. just love and you will be on track. love everything and never allow judgments, negativity, ill will in your heart and thoughts. this is the beginning of the path. but theres much more that you can do. always speak to people with respect, and treat them as your equal at all time. everytime you speak, speak to them by recognising that they are just as smart and good as you. Never allow hate, never react with hate even if someone do something you dont agree with because everytime you do hate, you hurt yourself and you ruin the moment. Dont think I say that because I think you dont do this, just that this is worth repeating over and over as I think we all are guilty of not acting this way at all time 

 This is the beginning of the path. and then, maye close your eye and concentrate on the breath and dont allow any thought to enter. everytime you think, go back to the breath. eventually, you will understand how beautiful just the fact to breath is and how peaceful concentration can bring you.


----------



## ForEverAfter

We're starting to go in circles.
(I like the mango analogy.)



> the buddha is the one who found the path without any teacher. You cannot become a buddha anymore as the buddha is the one who found the path.



Buddha is a man's name.
You sound like you're talking about a divine consciousness or something.
He was just a philosopher. A brilliant philosopher. But a philosopher, nonetheless.



> Everybody who follows the buddha teaching can become enlightened, just like gautamma buddha, but we call all other enlightened being arahant, not buddha.



That makes sense, because - like I said - Buddha is a man's name... although there have been numerous Buddhas.
There are huge golden statues of different forms of Buddha, that people worship.



> A buddha is one who find enlightenment without any teacher which is not the case anymore as all arahant have followed the teaching of the buddha



How do you know there are no enlightened people outside Buddhism?
Why can only one man find the path? I don't get it.
Isn't that a bit arrogant?

You're saying that the Buddhists kind of own "true" spirituality / enlightenment / God.
Christians argue the same thing... So does every religion... Can't you see that?



> the buddha is no longer needed as the buddha only showed the way to our inner truth.



If Buddha is no longer needed, then why do you identify as a Buddhist?
Why quote Buddha? Why get ordained?



> you misunderstand what I quote. but you dont believe me and think I assume and worst,t hat I dont understand what I quote. I dont assume. its evident from your post that you misunderstood the meaning behind:``killing the buddha''



We're going to have to agree to disagree there.
I've had similar experiences to Buddha and various Old Testament prophets.
I understand what the statement means.



> religion is such a broad concept, it doesnt mean anything.



It doesn't mean anything, relative to what?
It (religion) really isn't that broad.
I'm not criticizing Buddhism as a practice.
I'm telling you that you're treating it as a religion. (IMO)



> you have to open your heart and feel it and give yourself to the meditation and stop doubting the teaching.



My heart is open. I have attained deep meditative trances.
I'm not doubting the teachings. I believe they are imperfect, if that's what you mean.
I doubt the infallibility of a man named Buddha... and I doubt your interpretation of his words.

(Since words are meaningless, aren't Buddha's teachings meaningless too?
Or is the meaningless of words conveniently selective?)


----------



## murphythecat

because the buddha showed us the dharma, which is the path to follow in order to attain nibbana. we dont need him, we needed his teaching. we quote him because his teaching are helpful to help our mind to learn and grow. 

no, gautamma is refered to the buddha. a buddha is the one who have discovered the way to enlightenement without any teacher. there have been other buddha before gautamma buddha. so its not just the name of gautamma buddha but refer to something else which is someone who have attained, without another teacher, nibbana

you just dont believe what I say and think im wrong. fine, have fun. my interpretation is in synched with ayya khema, ajahn brahm. I cannot convince you. maybe if I were to speak to you in person, but right now, I feel you have intentions which are not necessarly helpful for you to fully understand the meaning behind the buddha teaching and the truth behind what I said. not to say you dont udnerstand nothing about the dharma, but theres some key elements you seem to not know.

I believe in the dharma and have faith in the path. therefore, everyone who have faith in the path will identify as a buddhist.
but you cannot be a buddhist, you become a buddhist once you practice. the goal is to become the dharma, to be the dharma. which of course, im clearly not there yet.


----------



## Erikmen

Trying2Iso said:


> Why would a diety make a point to life, not reveal it, and not expect us to guess?
> That essentially proves my point that there is no point to life... lol
> Effectively, even if said diety made the point, that point doesn't matter, making the point pointless.
> 
> I have a conscience, i follow it, and i believe there is no point to life.



Or, maybe there is a point, but we can't see it. Theoretically..


----------



## ForEverAfter

murphythecat said:
			
		

> you just dont believe what I say and think im wrong. fine, have fun.



Yes, I think you're wrong about a couple of things.
And you think I'm wrong. I didn't mean to upset you.



			
				murphythecat said:
			
		

> my interpretation is in synched with ayya khema, ajahn brahm.



Then, I disagree with their interpretations too.
They are not infallible. They, too, are just men.



			
				murphythecat said:
			
		

> I cannot convince you and you clearly dont want to learn honestly right now.



The assumption you're making is that you're the teacher in this scenario.



			
				murphythecat said:
			
		

> stop pretending you care



I'm not pretending. I was enjoying the conversation.
I didn't realize I was upsetting you, at all.
Apologies.



			
				murphythecat said:
			
		

> you really appreciate to dismiss, find faults and judge and just talk about you, what you think, what you think is worthy, what you think is not worthy.



You're "dismissing", "finding faults" and "judging" me just as much. Aren't you?
I said very early on that I meant no harm and you said you knew that already.
What's changed?



			
				murphythecat said:
			
		

> its all fine men, but Im not gonna play this game and answer you constantly.



This isn't a game.
You don't have to answer me. You never did.
I'm sorry for attempting to challenge some of your beliefs.
I had no ill intention, I assure you.


----------



## murphythecat

the thing is, is that you have no empirical experience, when monk spend their lives applying the dharma and becoming the dharma. how can you disagree with ayya khema and jahn brahm when you have never heard or read one of their book...

how can you be so sure that their wrong when you never even tried?
Buddhism is a practice. its only by practicing it that you will understand. just like its only when you eat the mango that you understand its delicacy and taste.
nibbanna is a feeling, a experience: a unconditioned reality mind you, but none the less a experience. just like everything else. so, how can you know for sure that its not true when you have never experienced it? the only way to experiencing it is to practice. and it takes time. but I assure you that mindfulness of thought is very beneficial to anyone who does it.

Your thoughts and your logic is not infaillible, nor mine, but so far, ive applied a lot of buddhist teaching in my life and I can assure you that my life has changed, totally. within a few years. actually, it took em a fwe year to understand it intellectually, but once I applied it in my heart and felt it in my heart, it really become clear that its a damn good way to find peace and love.
maybe you are already filled with love and peace, I dont know about that at all. but still, its not the end of the road. 

I know you have no ill intention, and Im sorry to be a bit crude, but your intention sometime is not to learn here. You dont seem to want to learn or really understand, sometime yes, sometime no and this is where I see a problem. not in you, but in your intentions. you jump into conclusion, are able to judge monks who spend their lives and helped countless of people and think they are wrong. how can you know when you clearly have little understanding of the dharma and experience? 
the buddha showed us the way to permanenet happiness. as long as you dont follow his path, which is the third noble truth, you will never be able to make a right conclusion and know the veracity of his teaching.


Im not mad one bit, im concern honestly about some of your behaviour you exhibit sometime.
I really am sorry to maybe have sounded harsh, and I dont think I judge here, its quite obvious that sometime you seem to want to critic and judge very fast. and this is only detrimental for you, no one else.
anyways! I have to go but if you want to continue the conversation, ill answer one I come back!
have a nice one foreverafter !


----------



## ForEverAfter

> the thing is, is that you have no empirical experience, when monk spend their lives applying the dharma and becoming the dharma.



I do have experience of divine / enlightened states, as I've already said.
Call it "dharma" if you like. Words are meaningless, remember?



> how can you be so sure that their wrong when you never even tried



I never said Buddhist monks were "wrong".
I said that a monk lifestyle doesn't appeal to me, and it does not...
There's an undeniable similarity between abstinent Roman Catholic monks and Buddhist monks IMO.
What I'm saying is Buddhism is not the only "right" path. That doesn't make it "wrong".



> nibbanna is a feeling, a experience. just like everything else. so, how can you know for sure that its not true when you have never experienced it?



I never said it wasn't true. On the contrary, I actually said I've experienced it.



> ive applied a lot of buddhist teaching in my life and I can assure you that my life has changed, totally. within a few years.



I'm sure you have, and that's great.
I'm not trying to take that away from you.
Like I said, Buddhism is my favorite mainstream religion.



> your intention is not to learn here. You dont seem to want to learn or really understand. and this is where I see a problem. not in you, but in your intentions.



Again, you're assuming that you're the teacher in this scenario
Perhaps it is frustrating for you that I don't accept the role of the student?
Perhaps you don't want to learn? It's really a matter of perspective.



> you clearly have little understanding of the dharma



How is that clear?



> the buddha showed us the way to permanenet happiness. as long as you dont follow his path, which is the third noble truth, you will never be able to make a right conclusion and know the veracity of his teaching.



There you go again, telling me that your path - the Buddhist path - is the only path.
I'm not telling you that I am on the right path and you have to either join me or be unhappy.



> Im not mad one bit, im concern honestly about some of your behaviour. I really am sorry to maybe have sounded harsh, and I dont think I judge here, its quite obvious that you seem to want to critic and judge. and this is only detrimental for you, no one else.



There's no need to be sorry. You're not offending me in the slightest.
You continue to make assumptions about me, though.

Despite how obvious it may seem to you, I'm actually not trying to criticize you or judge you.
I thought we were having an interesting discussion.

...

Let's stop this, okay?


----------



## murphythecat

no, its not assumptions. its obvious you lack some key understanding of the teaching and understanding to how far can meditation can bring you. otherwise you wouldnt dismiss it like you do.

you think  you know what it is to live a monkhood and so are able to say that you dont want that. but you dont even know what it is to reach a jhana or what a jhana is.
Ive also had profound feeling in psychadelic, profoudn feeling of love, of light ect, trust me. and what they describe is much deeper then this.

just read about the jhanas and the experience they describe will resonate deeply with your psy experience. but again, I doubt you will go and read about the jhanas and hence me thinking you dont seem to want to learn and just want to state your opinion. 
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_The_Jhanas.pdf


----------



## ForEverAfter

> no, its not assumptions. its obvious you lack some key understanding of the teaching and understanding to how far can meditation can bring you.



It may _seem_ obvious to you, but I don't think you're seeing clearly.



> otherwise you wouldnt dismiss it like you do.



I never dismissed Buddhism. I never dismissed meditation.
You keep referring to things that I haven't done.



> you think you know what it is to live a monkhood and so are able to say that you dont want that.



I genuinely don't want to be a monk...
I know enough about monks and about my direction in life to know that.
Not everybody wants to be a monk. That doesn't mean they don't understand monks.
Just like not everybody wanting to identify as Buddhist doesn't mean they don't understand Buddhism.
Your logic is wrong.



> but you dont even know what it is to reach a jhana or what a jhana is.



Again, assumptions.
How do you know what I know?



> Ive also had profound feeling in psychadelic



I've experienced something an infinite amount stronger than psychedelics.



> just read about the jhanas and the experience they describe will resonate deeply with your psy experience. but again, I doubt you will go and read about the jhanas and hence me thinking you dont seem to want to learn and just want to state your opinion.



I already have. Stop with the assumptions.


----------



## Trying2Iso

ForEverAfter said:


> You said you were agnostic, yet you have "atheistic" tendencies as far as the meaning of life goes.
> I'm not sure how you can selectively agnostic. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
> A lot of atheists misguidedly think they can logically disprove God.
> Your logic (disproving the point of life) is as flawed as theirs.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a hypothetical.
> 
> If God is everything and exists in a timeless void, perhaps He feels the "need" to split / fragment His consciousness in order to stave off (His version of) boredom/insanity... In other words: perhaps we are fractions of God, with retrograde amnesia. If so, we cannot know we are God for this theory to function and - therefore - the point of our lives involves not knowing the point of our lives... Similarly, when we dream, we do not know that we are dreaming. Becoming conscious of the dream / achieving lucidity while unconscious is analogous to enlightenment. It is a function of dreams, that we are unaware that they are dreams. This does not render them pointless.



Just because there might be a God or gods doesn't mean that there is a point to life.
Look up Gnosticism, for example.
Even if the universe was created by a diety, why does that prove that there is a point?  what if he/she/they just created the universe to see what would happen?


----------



## ForEverAfter

I didn't say there was a point.
I said there might be a point.
You said there wasn't.



> Even if the universe was created by a diety, why does that prove that there is a point?



It doesn't.


----------



## murphythecat

forverafter, whats your point then to discuss with me? what are trying to do here? help me?


----------



## ForEverAfter

I was talking to Trying2Iso...

But, to answer your question, I didn't really have a point.
I just like having discussions.
Why? What's your point?


----------



## murphythecat

ForEverAfter said:


> I was talking to Trying2Iso...
> 
> But, to answer your question, I didn't really have a point.
> I just like having discussions.
> What's your point?


to help and bring people to see how important to begin the practice.


----------



## Trying2Iso

The world and universe itself is so vast, different, strange, wild, etc.  People are SO different, 
that putting one single "point" to life would be impossible, because there's no way every person on Earth could, would, or should conform to one point.
If there is a point (which i don't believe there is), it would probably be so long and extensive you could fill several libraries with it.


----------



## ForEverAfter

Again, I don't really get your logic.
The vastness of the universe doesn't imply anything about the complexity of the meaning of life.
Who said anything about people conforming to one point?

Like I said, we may not even be aware of it.
My hypothetical, above, is an example of how this is possible.


----------



## Trying2Iso

Life is extremely complex, people are extremely complex, and different, so i imagine the point of life would be complex as well.
We do not live in a simple universe, and humans are not simple creatures.  A large part of what has happened up to this point is random.
I can testify that my life has been random.  very random.
The idea that all of this has a point is unlikely.


----------



## ForEverAfter

People are varied in many ways - sure - but they're also similar in many ways... We tend to celebrate our differences, and embrace individuality, so we may - generally speaking - have a heightened awareness of the variations and a reduced awareness of the similarities... But, we aren't really that different, if you think about it... We're more similar than we are different...

The point of life pertains to all living beings in the universe, not just humans.
And, yes, life is varied. But that doesn't imply anything about the point of life.
Television shows are varied, but their point is simple: to entertain.

Human bodies are extremely complex relative to their cellular makeup, but that doesn't mean that the function of a blood cell is particularly complex.
Bees are not aware that the point of their relationship with flowers is pollination.

You're making a lot of assumptions about the point.



> A large part of what has happened up to this point is random.



Just because something is beyond your understanding, doesn't - necessarily - make it random... Regardless, randomness implies nothing about the theoretical "point" of life... I can write you a program that generates random numbers, to hack passwords. Simply because the isolated events in the program happen to be randomly generated, doesn't render it (the program) incapable of breaking a simple password and - therefore - having a definite function.

If a cell in your body developed consciousness, would it be able to ascertain it's function?
Would it know it was part of a larger, much more complex, entity?
Does not knowing it's function imply that it doesn't have one?

Your logic is backwards and upside-down.


----------



## Erikmen

murphythecat said:


> forverafter, whats your point then to discuss with me? what are trying to do here? help me?



Fair point.


----------



## Trying2Iso

ForEverAfter said:


> People are varied in many ways - sure - but they're also similar in many ways... We tend to celebrate our differences, and embrace individuality, so we may have a heightened awareness of the variations and a reduced awareness of the similarities... We aren't that different, if you think about it. We're more similar than we are different.
> 
> But the point of life pertains to all living beings in the universe, not just humans.
> And, yes, life is varied. But that doesn't imply anything about the point of life.
> Television shows are varied, but their point is simple: to entertain.
> 
> Human bodies are extremely complex relative to their cellular makeup, but that doesn't mean that the function of a blood cell is particularly complex.
> Bees are not aware that the point of their relationship with flowers is pollination.



Yeah um there are people who are complete opposites.  Jeffrey Dahmer and Mother Theresa, for example...  People are very different.  

Television shows aren't always to entertain, they are also to inform, educate, etc.  TV is a great example of diversity.  Everything from porn, to Food network, to the news, to EWTN, vast differences and purposes...

Btw did you know that the human brain is so far the most complex object in the known universe?  Neurology is just only beginning, there is so much we don't know.
look it up, the scientific community agrees, human brain is THE most complicated.


----------



## ForEverAfter

> Fair point.



What? We were involved in a mutual discussion. Why do I have to have an agenda?
If you go back and read our discussion, from the beginning, it's pretty clear that I was being civil and patient throughout the entire discussion...


----------



## ForEverAfter

Trying2Iso said:
			
		

> Yeah um there are people who are complete opposites. Jeffrey Dahmer and Mother Theresa, for example... People are very different.



Jeffrey Dahmer and Mother Theresa aren't complete opposites.
They might have completely opposite personalities.
Like I said we embrace our individuality.
But, in the end, we're all apes.



> Television shows aren't always to entertain, they are also to inform, educate, etc. TV is a great example of diversity. Everything from porn, to Food network, to the news, to EWTN, vast differences and purposes...



I think you're missing the point. I'll rephrase slightly.
Fictional comedic television shows are varied, but their point is simple: to entertain.
It is a simple example that disproves your logic. Variability doesn't imply the absence of a unified function.
I can give you thousands of examples.



> Btw did you know that the human brain is so far the most complex object in the known universe? Neurology is just only beginning, there is so much we don't know.
> look it up, the scientific community agrees, human brain is THE most complicated.



I'm not sure what your point is, here... and technically your statement is incorrect.
The human brain may be the most complicated organ, but it isn't the most complicated object.



> A whale brain would have a similar density of neurones as a human brain, and is physically larger, so wouldn't that make a whale brain more complex than a human brain? A human contains a human brain, so wouldn't that make a human more complex than a human brain? The Earth carries many humans and whales, so wouldn't that make the Earth's ecosystem more complex than the human brain? The (Milky Way galaxy) holds many planets, stars and other objects (including the Earth), so wouldn't (that make the galaxy more complex than a human brain)?



http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=51418.0


----------



## Trying2Iso

ForEverAfter said:


> Jeffrey Dahmer and Mother Theresa aren't complete opposites.



Jeffrey Dahmer raped boys and men, then killed them, then raped their dead bodies again, then ate them.

Mother Teresa spent her life in the slums of Calcutta feeding the poor and running charities all over India.  For free.

If you say that these people are even remotely similar, i can't really respect your intellect at this point.
You seem to be pretty detached from logic.


----------



## ForEverAfter

1. They are both descended from apes.
2. They both have a mother and a father.
3. They were both born on the planet Earth.
4. They both urinate.
5. They both eat.
6. They both shit.
7. They both wear clothes.
8. They both rape boys and kill them. (Wait, no, scrap that one.) 

I agreed they may indeed have opposite personalities, but they're not opposite in many other ways.
You said there are people who are complete opposites. This is not true.
The complete opposite of a person would not be a person.

Variation in personality does not have any bearing on the point of life (or human life, for that matter).
I can see this is going nowhere with you, so I'm going to go to sleep.
Goodnight.



> You seem to be pretty detached from logic.



Indeed you do.


----------



## Trying2Iso

ForEverAfter said:


> 1. They are both descended from apes.
> 2. They both have a mother and a father.
> 3. They were both born on the planet Earth.
> 4. They both urinate.
> 5. They both eat.
> 6. They both shit.
> 7. They both wear clothes.
> 8. They both rape boys and kill them. (Wait, no, scrap that one.)
> 
> I agreed they may indeed have opposite personalities, but they're not opposite in many other ways.
> You said there are people who are complete opposites. This is not true.
> The complete opposite of a person would not be a person.
> 
> Variation in personality does not have any bearing on the point of life (or human life, for that matter).
> I can see this is going nowhere with you, so I'm going to go to sleep.
> Goodnight.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed you do.



lmao.  you are indeed grasping at straws.
If there was a point to life, it would involve more than bodily functions and being the same species.
Human's aren't just any organisms.
There's a reason that if someone is declared brain-dead, they pull the plug.  
What makes us human is our personality, intellect, decision-making, morals, consciences, ideas, and emotions.
Reducing humans to shitting, urinating, clothes-wearing creatures does not mark any similarities in these two people's personas.

but i would love for you to write again that you think Jeffrey Dahmer and Mother Teresa are similar.  i need a good laugh.


----------



## ForEverAfter

My God, you're being silly.

1. I didn't say Dahmer and Theresa are similar. I said they aren't complete opposites, and they're not.
2. I didn't reduce the human race to biological functions, either. I listed some as examples of the many similarities that all humans share.
3. I never said, or implied in any way, that the point of life was directly related to bodily functions.
4. And, for the third time now, I said that they may well have opposite personalities.

You are not reading what I'm writing.
This conversation is pointless.

I'll try one last time.
Don't be so quick to reject everything I say. Actually consider it for a moment.
If you think my logic is flawed, maybe try to explain why...

I'll keep it really simple.
Reply to the following:



			
				me said:
			
		

> Variability doesn't imply the absence of a unified function.



The cells in our body vary enormously, but they have a unified function.



			
				me said:
			
		

> I can give you thousands of examples.



...

If you'd like examples, you're going to have to wait till tomorrow.
If you cannot refute the logic, then it stands.

Good night.


----------



## Trying2Iso

So if they have opposite personalities, a point of life would be futile because this proves that not all humans are able to live up to it.
Humans are so vastly different from each other in so many ways, expecting them to live up to a single point of life (you keep saying point as singular, implying that there is only one) would be ridiculous. 
That's why i don't believe there is a point to life.


----------



## neurotic

thats the absurdity of life... life is pointless, find your own meaning for it etc

existentialism...


----------



## murphythecat

Trying2Iso said:


> So if they have opposite personalities, a point of life would be futile because this proves that not all humans are able to live up to it.
> Humans are so vastly different from each other in so many ways, expecting them to live up to a single point of life (you keep saying point as singular, implying that there is only one) would be ridiculous.
> That's why i don't believe there is a point to life.


we all have the same basic desire and profound need. We all want happiness, love and peace obviously.

how are humans so vastly different?


----------



## Smoky

Humans are not vastly that different, we just 'think' we are - our dilemma, separation and conflict


----------



## ForEverAfter

That's what I was saying.


----------



## Smoky

I thought so… see, we are not that different.


----------



## ForEverAfter

> we are not that different



How dare you imply that Mother Theresa shares anything in common with Jeffrey Dahmer!
The woman is saint... a God damned saint, I tell you!


----------



## Trying2Iso

murphythecat said:


> we all have the same basic desire and profound need. We all want happiness, love and peace obviously.
> 
> how are humans so vastly different?



I know people who don't want love, asocial types for example.  There are some people that just want to be alone.


----------



## Trying2Iso

ForEverAfter said:


> How dare you imply that Mother Theresa shares anything in common with Jeffrey Dahmer!
> The woman is saint... a God damned saint, I tell you!



nice try.
Now you're just reinforcing your own failure
but yeah, now that you've attempted to say that Jeffrey Dahmer and Mother Teresa are similar people, and actually attempted to continue with this line of logic, can't really say i respect your intelligence anymore
if you really believe that, especially.  and if you don't then you've lost respect for this discussion and i'm wasting my time


----------



## neurotic

There is no point in life. That is the absurdity of existence so discussed in existentialist philodophy.

You can kill yourself or find a meaning fo your life.

May love free us from havin to face the meaninglessness of ou existence .

Alcohol works sometimes instead of love too. Alcohol lasts less longer tho


----------



## Ninae

Nihilism works too?


----------



## ForEverAfter

> nice try.
> Now you're just reinforcing your own failure
> but yeah, now that you've attempted to say that Jeffrey Dahmer and Mother Teresa are similar people, and actually attempted to continue with this line of logic, can't really say i respect your intelligence anymore
> if you really believe that, especially. and if you don't then you've lost respect for this discussion and i'm wasting my time



But, there are no cats in America and the streets are paved with cheese!
Oh, there are no cats in America... So, set your mind at ease!


----------



## Trying2Iso

"What do we mean by saying that existence precedes essence? We mean that man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world – and defines himself afterwards. If man as the existentialist sees him is not definable, it is because to begin with he is nothing. He will not be anything until later, and then he will be what he makes of himself." Here it is made clear what is meant by Existentialists when they say meaning is "a consequence of engagement and commitment".


----------



## Ninae

So what is responsible for "existence"?


----------



## Trying2Iso

certainly not an old man with a pointy white beard.


----------



## Trying2Iso

i retract that statement, actually, in case there is a god i do not want him/her to be mad at me.


----------



## Ninae

None of these things are possible to understand from a 3rd dimensional perspective.


----------



## murphythecat

lol
you wish





Ninae said:


> None of these things are possible to understand from a 3rd dimensional perspective.


----------



## Ninae

If they were we would be able to understand them. No one can give a verifiable explanation of any of these things from the perspective of this world. The origin of things like life and consciousness do seem to lie in another dimension and be out of our reach for the most part.


----------



## Xorkoth

I agree, I'm not sure we will ever understand the origin of life and consciousness by studying things in the observable universe.


----------



## murphythecat

yeah, you cannot understand the nature of consciousness looking at the world, you must look at your consciousness with mindfulness.


----------



## murphythecat

Trying2Iso said:


> I know people who don't want love, asocial types for example.  There are some people that just want to be alone.


and you believe them?
just give them a little and see how good you can make them feel.



Ninae said:


> If they were we would be able to understand them. No one can give a verifiable explanation of any of these things from the perspective of this world. The origin of things like life and consciousness do seem to lie in another dimension and be out of our reach for the most part.


At this point, I feel some people dont want to understand to legitimate their unsatisfaction and convince themselves they cannot change much or do much about their own happiness.


----------



## Ninae

You're right, people can only really increase their happiness by raising their consciousness-levels, but most don't want to know anything about it and project all their needs onto things in this world.

Having said that, drugs are an artificial, quick way of raising your consciousness so you become independent and don't need much from this world, but the natural way takes a lot of work and is really a life's work.

Anyway, I have more actual experience in lowering my consciousness than in raising my consciousness.


----------



## Trying2Iso

murphythecat said:


> and you believe them?
> just give them a little and see how good you can make them feel.
> .



some people just avoid love, i know people who never seek it.


----------



## murphythecat

Trying2Iso said:


> some people just avoid love, i know people who never seek it.



doesnt mean they dont need love and happiness and peace


----------



## Xorkoth

I do believe that every human desires love, it seems to be built into our organism as a result of evolution.  Just because some people avoid it doesn't mean they don't actually need it.  Avoidance is a powerful coping technique for trauma.

Sociopaths may be an exception to this.  I don't know though, just a thought.  Perhaps sociopathy is a reaction to trauma as well?


----------



## Trying2Iso

murphythecat said:


> doesnt mean they dont need love and happiness and peace



some people don't really need social interaction tho, let alone love
it's called introversion
http://psychology.about.com/od/trait-theories-personality/f/introversion.htm
Unlike extraverts who gain energy from social interaction, introverts have to expend energy in social situations


----------



## Erikmen

Smoky said:


> Humans are not vastly that different, we just 'think' we are - our dilemma, separation and conflict



I agree.


----------



## murphythecat

and what does that as to do with the fact that we are all alike, all animals, all beings need love, peace and happiness and seek for it. indeed, some may think they dont need love, or rather prefer to judge, hate or fear, but it doesnt mean this is what they need rather then what theve learned to do to protect themselves.
but love, happiness is peace and necessary for any being and what we all need. Not someone that love us, but rather we all need to love.





Trying2Iso said:


> some people don't really need social interaction tho, let alone love
> it's called introversion
> http://psychology.about.com/od/trait-theories-personality/f/introversion.htm
> Unlike extraverts who gain energy from social interaction, introverts have to expend energy in social situations


----------



## Trying2Iso

murphythecat said:


> and what does that as to do with the fact that we are all alike, all animals, all beings need love, peace and happiness and seek for it. indeed, some may think they dont need love, or rather prefer to judge, hate or fear, but it doesnt mean this is what they need rather then what theve learned to do to protect themselves.
> but love, happiness is peace and necessary for any being and what we all need. Not someone that love us, but rather we all need to love.



I know many people who are very happy not having any social interaction.  
I think putting a generalization like that on all 7.125 billion people on  earth is very presumptuous, especially considering how many people are content and happy to go through life keeping themselves company


----------



## murphythecat

Trying2Iso said:


> I know many people who are very happy not having any social interaction.
> I think putting a generalization like that on all 7.125 billion people on  earth is very presumptuous, especially considering how many people are content and happy to go through life keeping themselves company



You need to love even when your alone, dont you.
Love is not necessarly about anyone or you dont need any exterior reason to love either. spiritual life begins once you dont look for reason to love outside or reason outside oneselve worth your love and love no matter what.
but the need to love is undeniable.


----------



## Trying2Iso

murphythecat said:


> You need to love even when your alone, dont you.
> Love is not necessarly about anyone or you dont need any exterior reason to love either. spiritual life begins once you dont look for reason to love outside or reason outside oneselve worth your love and love no matter what.
> but the need to love is undeniable.



not necessarily.  If love to you means not necessarily about anyone, i could agree.
I'm saying that there are many people who are perfectly happy without social interaction or love for anyone else.


----------



## Xorkoth

Trying2Iso said:


> some people don't really need social interaction tho, let alone love
> it's called introversion
> http://psychology.about.com/od/trait-theories-personality/f/introversion.htm
> Unlike extraverts who gain energy from social interaction, introverts have to expend energy in social situations



True but the introverts I've known still have people they love and are close with.  I used to be introverted, and social situations outside of my family and friends were difficult for me.  But I still had an intense amount of love from family and friends.  As I've gotten older I've turned into an extrovert which I love, because it makes life easier and more enjoyable, but I remember what it was like to be the other way.


----------



## Trying2Iso

then i guess you haven't met any extreme introverts.  
7.125 billion people on Earth, you'd be surprised how different people can be


----------



## murphythecat

you cannot be perfectly happy and not love everyone you meet though. 





Trying2Iso said:


> not necessarily.  If love to you means not necessarily about anyone, i could agree.
> I'm saying that there are many people who are perfectly happy without social interaction or love for anyone else.


----------



## Trying2Iso

murphythecat said:


> you cannot be perfectly happy and not love everyone you meet though.



how so?
why is it required to love everyone you meet to be happy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder


----------



## murphythecat

because theres absolutely no excuse to not love someone if you want to be happy as everything you think you know from anyone is not real and any hate, judgments or fear can only create fear, hate and judgements in the other person, while love and care and compassion at all time is the only way to perfect happiness.
of course, when you know someone do something bad, you can know but to judge him and fear and hate him due to his faults wont help you nor him while love and compassion and care will 





Trying2Iso said:


> how so?
> why is it required to love everyone you meet to be happy?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder


I dont believe in set personalities. everyone change and everyone is a bit different.
but everyone needs and want the same thing in life


----------



## swilow

murphythecat said:


> you cannot be perfectly happy and not love everyone you meet though.



That to me is so conditional that to expect that of people is almost unfair. I agree that it is important to have the idea of love in your heart in all interactions, but linking it to happiness seems to be a good way to become unhappy quickly. Is love that is given spontantenously and unconditionally overly simplistic and even deserving of the name 'love'? Could it be something else? Or is love actually a base emotion that is only valuable when refined? I think it is important to act with compassion and treat all with dignity, but I save my love for my friends, lovers and family who deserve it. I don't really see that much admirable in blind homogenous love, any more then I see value in instant, all-consuming hatred. I've experienced hate from people who I loved and who were meant to love me unconditionally; I speak of my late father who I couldn't help but love even though he expressed a desire to kill me on several occaisions. If what I felt for him was love, doesn't that devalue the experience? 

Compassion, fairness, dignity, no judging, no quick jumping to hate or love, but to be neutral and open to any possibility seems more valuable then immediately jumping to claim love for strangers. I am willing to love, I am willing to not, I am willing!   Instant love for all is close-minded (please do not ask me to back that statement up....).


----------



## murphythecat

love is a feeling, just like care and compassion, generosities. If its conditional, you conditionally happy.
you have to keep love as a feeling at all time. thats what im saying. if you feel love for only people you think merits it, you lose opportunities to feel love for all the other people and loose opportunity to be happy because each time you dont love, you arent happy.


----------



## swilow

^I guess I am questioning the value of blind, unconditional love (as I see it to some extent)...


----------



## murphythecat

love is and can be for no other reason that it is available at all time in your consciousness and in your heart, unconditionally.





willow11 said:


> ^I guess I am questioning the value of blind, unconditional love (as I see it to some extent)...


----------



## Trying2Iso

willow11 said:


> That to me is so conditional that to expect that of people is almost unfair. I agree that it is important to have the idea of love in your heart in all interactions, but linking it to happiness seems to be a good way to become unhappy quickly. Is love that is given spontantenously and unconditionally overly simplistic and even deserving of the name 'love'? Could it be something else? Or is love actually a base emotion that is only valuable when refined? I think it is important to act with compassion and treat all with dignity, but I save my love for my friends, lovers and family who deserve it. I don't really see that much admirable in blind homogenous love, any more then I see value in instant, all-consuming hatred. I've experienced hate from people who I loved and who were meant to love me unconditionally; I speak of my late father who I couldn't help but love even though he expressed a desire to kill me on several occaisions. If what I felt for him was love, doesn't that devalue the experience?
> 
> Compassion, fairness, dignity, no judging, no quick jumping to hate or love, but to be neutral and open to any possibility seems more valuable then immediately jumping to claim love for strangers. I am willing to love, I am willing to not, I am willing!   Instant love for all is close-minded (please do not ask me to back that statement up....).



this.


----------



## 4meSM

It's true, there's no real purpose or reward at the end of the line, we are just a small step for something else, we don't know where we're going but that doesn't mean we are going nowhere. A simple human life can't possibly understand the mysteries of existence, we can only wonder, ask questions...that's already a lot.
Its depressing yet amazing at the same time. There are so many interesting things to do in life and we often feel trapped, the reality is never as good as the illusion but that's just how our mind works, we are not perfect, or at least not perfect enough for our expectations.

It's not easy to be a human being, it's not easy to know that we are all going to be dead soon, that you only have 70-90 years (if you're lucky) to build your entire life and then you'll never see it again. But at the same time we get to know what's like to be alive, even if you think it sucks (and it will sometimes).
We have the opportunity to wonder, to feel, we have a consciousness. Would you really like to miss that?


----------



## murphythecat

the reward is now. when you love you feel good, when you dont love, you dont feel good.
its quite simple really, so simple some just dont want to admit their faults or their guilt toward the unwholesome action/thought they make to legitimate their way of life. Some seems to want to exteriorize their own fault and blame the external conditions for there problems.
The only way to happiness is in a perfect state of mind free of hate, greed and filled with love. the ends begins with love and compassion, peace and calm and stillness.


----------



## 4meSM

^i agree with almost everything but we aren't isolated from the outside world, every external condition affect us in some way. It's not always easy to have a perfect state of mind even if we know how to do it, we don't have a complete control of our minds. We can learn how to do it to some extent though


----------



## hellotherepig

If anyone doesn't agree with this your simple.  .....   *Hmmm wonder how people will reply to that, oh yeah why should I care. Theres no point to that*


----------



## hellotherepig

right on, theres no point


----------



## closeau

Very interesting thread. I agree with what has been said. One things brings me out of the nihilist attitude and that's my daughter. When she was born and I held her for first time my whole outlook changed. I'm still an introvert and generally hate everything and everyone but when I get dangerously introverted I think of her. She lives far away from me but all I gotta do is think of her and I'm good. I don't wanna raise her to be like me. I want her to love and enjoy life. I was into Buddhisim pretty heavy about 12 years ago and that taught me a lot about life and shit. That's it. Be safe


----------



## motiv311

Soul Garden said:


> Before you start reading this, I want you to know that this is not meant to be depressing in any way. It's not a, "Why should I live when there's no point in life?" thread... It's my own little philosophy I've made that many people don't seem to understand so far.
> When I say there is no point in life, I say there is absolute freedom. There is no point or expectation to live up to. The point in life is not to be happy, to please religious figures, to live life in general, etc... This is simply because there is no point in life. To believe there is an actual point in life is to put limitations and restrictions on it. Every being is absolutely free. Free to act chaoticly, free to show random behavior with no real meaning, free to make any choice, free to fulfill any dream, free to do anything...
> I also say this because there is no exact reason or point for anything existing. Let's discuss a planet like Jupiter or Pluto. These of course, are not living things. A similarity though, is that they are made of matter, just like living things. Do these planets have a point? No. They're there just because they are. Here comes somewhat of a mind fuck. Does matter really have a point? No. Once again, it's just there. It exists. We are a conscious form of matter with no real point. We're here because we are.
> We don't have an expectation or point to live up to. Therefore, we are completely free and can do whatever we want. We live a pointless life in a pointless universe. This is not sad or depressing though. It is not negative, nor is it positive. It is neutral. I will simply state again. There is no point. And without a point, there are no restrictions or limitations on life or within the wonderful universe we live in.



The whole point of life is the journey itself, it is an escape from the horrendous loneliness that we (god) endures at his highest vantage of existence. In other words , we are all made up of the same being, we are all the same entity experiencing itself as a plurality. So love , and being ONE is the point... pretty much all the stuff the beatles spoke of


----------



## relex_author

Soul Garden said:


> Before you start reading this, I want you to know that this is not meant to be depressing in any way. It's not a, "Why should I live when there's no point in life?" thread... It's my own little philosophy I've made that many people don't seem to understand so far.
> When I say there is no point in life, I say there is absolute freedom. There is no point or expectation to live up to. The point in life is not to be happy, to please religious figures, to live life in general, etc... This is simply because there is no point in life. To believe there is an actual point in life is to put limitations and restrictions on it. Every being is absolutely free. Free to act chaoticly, free to show random behavior with no real meaning, free to make any choice, free to fulfill any dream, free to do anything...
> I also say this because there is no exact reason or point for anything existing. Let's discuss a planet like Jupiter or Pluto. These of course, are not living things. A similarity though, is that they are made of matter, just like living things. Do these planets have a point? No. They're there just because they are. Here comes somewhat of a mind fuck. Does matter really have a point? No. Once again, it's just there. It exists. We are a conscious form of matter with no real point. We're here because we are.
> We don't have an expectation or point to live up to. Therefore, we are completely free and can do whatever we want. We live a pointless life in a pointless universe. This is not sad or depressing though. It is not negative, nor is it positive. It is neutral. I will simply state again. There is no point. And without a point, there are no restrictions or limitations on life or within the wonderful universe we live in.



I have to say I find this viewpoint quite limited. AND you can't prove that God etc doesn't exist. Open up  a little!!


----------



## closeau

I agree with that. Today im questioning the title of this post. Ive had a really bad day and external bs got me flustered and depressed. Nt just sad. I uave a very serious mental illness so when i get depressed i wanna die. Ive always practiced Buddhisim but when my mom died in Nov i changed my veiw. I believe i will see her in heaven one day and that brings me comfort. So ive returned to the catholic church. I disagree totally with most of their political veiws but i go to worship God. So i guess for me there is a point to life for me. Be the kindness person i can be and be the best father i can be. But my introvert ways and dislike of people and depression make that hard. I think murphythecat really had a good post and most posts are really good. Love and compassion are the key. Like i said, really hard for me now. Sometimes i think life is one fucking joke. Ever since i was 8 my life has been shit. Yes ive never starved or been on the streets but personal problems have plauged me non stop. Yes, im bitter toward life but my mom instilled the love and compassion in me so even though id like to hurt most strangers i come across im always polite to them. So, as yall can tell im a mess mentally and dont mean to contradict myself. Love is good and even if you just love one person thats better thatg. Thats all i got. Love is important but hard for introverts. If you think theres s point to life thats great and if you dont, so be it. Everyone is different. Maybe the piint is to all get along. Easier said than done. Great thread for me today even though im scatterbrained. Thanks for reading and great thread. Peace


----------



## Nom de Plume

There is no point of life, apart from reproduction and the proliferation of an organism's progeny. This is why everybody declines and slowly rots away after their reproductive prime wanes away. You're no longer needed after a.) you have raised children, or b.) have missed your reproductive plateau. &#55357;&#56853;
If evolution was a judge, it'll rule otherwise to the wise others.


----------



## 2skeed

FINALLY! someone that shares my opinion lmao i agree with you mann


----------



## Nixiam

You guys are thinking too... universal. What matters in actuality, is what we make of our subjective experience. The goal in life might vary for each person, but the overall pont is to develop as a species. and for what? To please some god? Hell no. What I'm getting at is we should accept and make the best of the situation we are in. On this rock, in this big fucking bucket of time, I agree with many others in that, we will probably never know what was the reason for creation, what is responsible for "existence", but ask yourself if it even matters. Ask yourself it will fill a hole in your life. It shouldn't, because if frustration with existence is what gets you down, you cleary have been staring at your bellybutton too long (reference to MDAO). Read the thread 'Existiential Frustration' for further elaboration. 
Saying there is no point in life is like saying there is no point in poker. The point is to make the best of the hand you're dealt (my apologies if this sounds cliché). You just might make it home with your pants on ;D


----------



## closeau

I think there is a point to life. Its to stay alive. Violence, car wrecks, suicide, and anything else that could take you we avoid these things. Like our brave troops overseas. They stay alive if they can and keep their brothers alive. So many shitty things in this world that could take us and we resist. The core point to life, stay alive!


----------



## swilow

^Yes, but stay alive for what reason? Its tautological and doesn't necessarily mean a lot.


----------



## Nixiam

^ I somewhat doubt it'll matter in the end.


----------



## turkalurk

You need to research logical fallacies further because you consistently misapply them without justifying your claims. Its a logical tautology, not a rhetorical one. If it were a rhetorical tautology, then it would not be so easy for everyone to agree with. There is a deeper underlying message that evades you. On every level the purpose of life is to survive. Even the purpose of death functions in survival at higher levels. Without death overpopulation would ensue, gene pools would be stagnant. Even reproduction functions in survival at the species level. On a global scale, all of this biodiversity helps to ensure the survival of life. Its the purpose of suffering as well. We suffer so we can learn ways to overcome the conditions causing us to suffer. This is the formation of intelligence. You can't adapt to your surrondings if you can't detect the harm. A reptile will burn himself to death on a heat lamp because his skin doesn't have pain receptors. The pain of losing loved ones to cancer inspires us to investigate and research it so we can survive it.

Why is the world so full of brutality? strengthening our gene pool through natural selection. What would be the purpose of a species intelligent enough to develop technology capable of destroying planets? Survivability, that same species can help protect life from mass extinction due to global catastrophe. Life is so fragile, even if we bring this planet to the brink of extinction, if we can learn from our mistakes, rebuild a stronger planet, spread life everywhere we can, and/or create a more advance kind of biorobotic life that can readily adapt itself, rebuilding its components to suit its environment, then it would all be worth it so life and intelligence can continue to progress. So, maybe that word is more meaningful to you willow. The point of life is simply to progress as a lifeform and, in doing so collectively, life progresses. The meaning in the message can be found, don't let a deep philosophical truth evade you.


----------



## Pibolar

I believe, too, that there is no absolute point or purpose for us in this life. There is no divine plan. We exist and there is no reason for it. But that's not to say you cannot find your own personal purpose in this life. Just being alive blows my mind, so while we're here, why not find something to stay here for? Why not make this world a better place than it was when you arrived? Why not express yourself? Why not find solace in written words? Why not converse with others? Why not make an attempt to help those in need? Why not create music, or films, or paintings, or take photographs or pursue any artistic endeavor?

No, there is no single reason for all of us to stay here. There is no objective purpose for all of us. But we are capable of free thought, and can easily make our lives worth living.


----------



## closeau

Well, i think its all a moot point. We either stay here or leave. Children are abused and bad fuckers live great lives. It really makes no sense but it doesnt have too. To stay alive gives us a chance to have an impact on anothers life just by sharing your experience. So many things can take your life in an instant. Most of the great teachers througout time taught how to live and survive and do good. Do i work at soup kitchens or with the elderly but i am getting involved in the wounded warriors. Im not healthy and getting to these things is a challenge. Doesnt matter. Ive gotten to the extreme point where there is no point to this shitty life ive tried to leave this world and after surviving that changed me. I think theres no debate that life is pointless and us being here was a freak mistake of amino acids melding together but if you look at people who have done so much with this life like mother Theresa and such. Dali Lama, it offsets the people who have abused like, Hitler. I agree with most of the posts here. Its very interesting thread. I dont know why were here but i know we should do either good or nothing. Just not bad. People are born bad and end up being killers. There IS no sense to it. I guess that would be my reponse to my last post of staying alive is to do good and help less fortunate. Sounds corny but i belive it to be true. Keep the posts coming cause awesome thread!!


----------



## turkalurk

yeah i get that some people are cynical and depressed and think of life as a cosmic accident, but what a lame way to look at such a magnificent Being.  A plan is a human concept, but so is an accident.  The inherent properties of nature allowed the potential for life to manifest itself.  Whether it came to be thru chemical evolution of molecules or any other random process, doesn't make it accidental, nor purposeful.  Its just the way of Nature.  Do we think of gravity as an accident?  Is the formation of stars an accident?  An incident, yes, but no accident.  A potentiality being actualized.


----------



## swilow

Intelligent design?


----------



## closeau

Lame? Geez. Good thing i didnt post what i wanted to. Im cynical bc life has made me that way but i squeeze a lot of joy and hapiness out if this cynical attitude. I think im gonna start my own thread. I truly truly believe there is heaven and hell and we are children of God. But thats gonna ruffle feathers and i dont wish to do that. I was born and raised Catholic and of course i left and went to Buddhisim and since my moms death late last year im back in the church. Spirituality helps my mind and soul and gets me away from the amino acid thing. Everything has to make sense to me and life doesnt but througout my struggles ive found peace and hapiness. My point to life is still the same, do good and i will be rewarded by heaven and see my mom again. Her death rocked me and turned my into a complete cynic but change is gonna come whether we like it or not. This might contridict my post from last night bc i feel different. I slept well and prayed when i woke up and got on here and this prob isnt the right thread for me. Im a ball of mess and have no idea what an unlame response to this question there is but ill keep moving forward and all will be revealed at the time of my death. Then i cant post it, lol. Yall have fun trying to have a conversation about this diffucult topic. It was interesting but im out. Good luck to all of you!!


----------



## turkalurk

willow11 said:


> Intelligent design?



No, my beliefs hardly compare to intelligent design because intelligence is an emergent property arising from a system.  The design of existence is beyond intelligence.  Intelligence processes information, my god is all information.  I am certainly not claiming conscious intent.  Thats just more anthropomorphism.  What I am saying is quite simple.  I am saying that everything that happens in this world, happens because of the inherent properties of cosmic vacuum energy, or something to that effect.  How ever the world came to be, it obviously had to have the potential.  did this planet clump together by accident?  Or due to the nature of gravity?


----------



## turkalurk

by lame I meant unconvincingly feeble.  Its just my opinion of the perspective and I am not making judgements about your character, but rather your state of mind.  And, sorry if I hit the nail on the head, but even more sorry that you have solid justification for that state.  I suggest that you keep your beliefs positive, but thats just part of who I am.  However you choose to look at it, you will still be just as human as anyone else.  Its not such a bad thing to be human, at least not in my eyes.


----------



## closeau

I hear ya and i will. So much going on in my life i had no buisness posting on such a thread. Even though theres negativity all around me i will stay positive. Thanks turkalurk!!


----------



## turkalurk

closeau said:


> I hear ya and i will. So much going on in my life i had no buisness posting on such a thread. Even though theres negativity all around me i will stay positive. Thanks turkalurk!!



Its therapeutic to write things that are an expression of your current emotional state, so I would say you had every business writing what you wrote.  Regardless of how I feel about that particular perpective, I did enjoy and value the way you expressed yourself.


----------



## closeau

Thank you. Ive been writing a lot lately. My brain feels like a spider web and i usually write songs but havent been able to do that. My mental state is not good right now mostly cause i miss my mom and the enviornment i live in. Luckily i have a great Dr i see tomorrow. Shes awesome and i need to report my increasing depression. But yeah, just start wrinting everything inside of me and itvhas been very helpful. I appreciate your last post. You seem very thoughtful and intellegant. If you ever wanna tell mevyour perspective on this thread, just message or post or whatever. Thanks again and wish me luck


----------



## neurotic

turkalurk said:


> The inherent properties of nature allowed the potential for life to manifest itself.  Whether it came to be thru chemical evolution of molecules or any other random process, doesn't make it accidental, nor purposeful.  Its just the way of Nature.  Do we think of gravity as an accident?  Is the formation of stars an accident?  An incident, yes, but no accident.  A potentiality being actualized.



very fucking well put. most people seem to insist on adding the notion of purpose or accident to everything and fail to see that those are just human notions. i always fail to explain them that it is neither.


----------



## Nixiam

Turk seems to be substantially calmer... almost happier. I like.


----------



## sigmond

“A nihilist is a man who judges of the world as it is  that it ought not to be, and of the world as it ought to be that it does  not exist”   
— Friedrich Nietzsche


----------



## Nixiam

OP.

"Flowers are restful to look at. They have neither emotions nor conflicts." -Sigmund Freud.

Yet flowers are still living. They have the inability to appoint their purpose subjectively, so maybe the point of life is to do exactly that. Make one.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

MyDoorsAreOpen said:


> OP, I ask you the same question I ask everyone who says what you say: What _would_ a _real_ point in life look like to you? In a hypothetical world where all things were equally possible, what would or could qualify as an indicator of your life's point? What I'm getting at is, what exactly are you negating? I mean this both as a rhetorical question and one worth trying to answer.
> 
> I have a perverse fascination with the old philosophical chestnut of "What is the meaning of life?" and "What is my life's purpose?". I have tried in vain to see things from the perspective of the majority of people who've responded to this thread. Not for lack of trying, I find neither liberation nor empowerment in nihilism or any similar philosophy, at least the way most philosophers with a Western intellectual background have worded it. I have found again and again that I am at my best, meaning best motivated to get the most out of my life and be a light to others, when I entertain the notion that I am here living the life I am now as some part of greater purpose or plan. I do not know what that plan is or who the planner is, but I don't need to know and it may not be for me to know, at least not yet. Therefore I won't worry about it, and just be the best MyDoorsAreOpen I know how to be. (Same end, different pathway? Hmm...)



This is a pretty nice philosophy and does everyone a bit of good IMO. So why not?  I see no way to know if there is a point or meaning to existence. I do see a lot of suffering however so anything that lessons that would be a plus in my book.  Personally I believe in what I call "enlightened hedonism".  Why I say enlightened is because I believe once we take the time to deeply grok what truly makes us the most happy in the short and long term it will almost always benefit others also.


----------



## closeau

I think Nixiams quote sums it up for me. Certinatly we are no mistake as the stars or niagra falls. For someone who suffers from mental illness and addiction im very pestimistic. I think there is a point to life but its very customized to each person. Some people find their calling and others never find anything and die alone. I think hatd work and luck have huge rolls in that. But, i fing in my interactions with other people, the ones who believe in a point to life are much happier than say me whos like who gives a shit. That quote was awesome. Thank you!!


----------



## Nixiam

^


----------



## Ksa

closeau said:


> I think there is a point to life. Its to stay alive. Violence, car wrecks, suicide, and anything else that could take you we avoid these things. Like our brave troops overseas. They stay alive if they can and keep their brothers alive. So many shitty things in this world that could take us and we resist. The core point to life, stay alive!



Look at how little sense you make, just think logically: Life ends in death. So death seems to be the ultimate purpose of life because it's what we observe, that's what's happening to it.

"Purpose" is a neo-barbaric term of primitive tribes that split the phrase "has a USE" into two, "has a USE" and "has a PURPOSE", to designate natural things that have a use, and man made tools that have a purpose, or, made by MAN for something or to do something. For example, what is the purpose of a wheel? It's to turn. Because that why MAN made it round, so it can turn. 

The concept of purpose all revolved around MAN. You take away that MAN and you no longer have a purpose, because purpose comes with man, man makes purpose, it's an invention! To accept the notion that a man has a purpose, you must accept that man was made by another man for a purpose, and that other man had that purpose in mind before making him, and thus is superior to that man, so it's no longer a man: An illogical twist. So it cannot be, unless you believe in God.


----------



## Nixiam

You ever get your amps bud?

I wouldn't say that you seem illogical in you're first statement Ksa, but I disagree. Just because life ends in death does not mean it is the purpose or the "point". If that were the case, why would we even exist at all? Just to die? Just to achieve not existing? If death is the purpose, are we only alive to validate the not/no longer existing after death (if there is an absence of afterlife)? 

Death isn't a purpose, it's a consequence. In the same sense that gravity is a consequence of the universe, death is a consequence of being.

I wouldn't try to get caught in an infinite regression paradoxical semantical argument, it just gets confusing. 

I think the concept of purpose is less revolved around man and more around nature. For someone to say it is just a product of man, and without man purpose is mute and void seems just a bit arrogant. Maybe that isn't the right word, more or less.

Nature created man, therefore nature indrectly dictates actual purpose over man, but not subjective, self appointed purpose.


I liked your including the definition of purpose though, that was neat.




Fuck last post.


----------



## Ksa

^ It's true but you can twist it the way you want and say that a wheel turning is a consequence of it being round but at the end of the day its purpose is to turn.

If you look at life as a whole, the only common denominator is death, otherwise, between you and a fish living in a water depth of 8,000 feet, there is no common point, nothing makes you like the fish, other than the fact that both of you folks are dying.


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## Ksa

All the problems of the world arise from man confusing "nature made" with "man made". Including religion:

Man built a house from wood and stone. Then, that man LOOKED AT THE HOUSE, saying, I built this house. Then, that same man looked at the forest, at the rivers, at the sky and asked "who built this?". So suddenly the confusion arised, because that man thought, this house that I HAVE BUILT, would not exist otherwise, so who built the world _(who would not exist otherwise either)_. Failing to realize that the world, and even himself, the MAN, had built themselves, without help nor intervention, and that HE, the MAN, was the first creation, aware of creation.

Then he became preoccupied with which part of creation that was, was it the beginning, the end, the middle, the upper the lower, with who created what...rather than focusing on the fact that he was creation noticing creation. It is indeed the perfect occasion to confuse everything and our society has not missed a single trap that could have gotten them confused. Fell in them all, one by one.

How hard is it to stop there? That you are creation noticing creation? No need to make a God story also, because you are scared to notice. Just notice...and then die. Simple. Why look for more? There is nothing else. Just noticing and dying. It's what everybody's been doing since day one...noticing and dying. If you have trouble accepting "death" as the ultimate purpose, then the best compromise I can think of is that: The purpose of life is to notice and die.

Everything else is a fabrication, a concoction, an interpolation: It is a man made innovation! The purpose is to succeed in your career and to do good deeds. Says who?

The other confusion is between what a man IS and what HE DOES. "I am a lawyer", so here the daily activity of that man is confused with his identity, failing to notice he could have chosen any other profession while still being the same person:

This also comes from primitive Indian tribes where names were given as a function of what a man did, like Ghisu FastAxe, he was named that way because he was a quick handler of axes so his identity was confused with his doings. You can say well, a 35 y.o. lawyer is a different person from himself when he was 3 y.o., because they have nothing in common. Sure but, the reason why the lawyer doesn't touch a hot plate anymore, is because he did so when he was 3 and got burned. So it had to be the same person, WITHOUT any changes. The SAME.

You understand who you are when you say, I, the 35 y.o. lawyer and I, the 3 y.o. touching hot plates and getting burned, is one. Not two. It's the same thing, without a single difference. Then you understand the I, you understand who you are, and you are happy to just notice and die, because it's how it should be. Every animal is capable of doing it except human beings, because they think instead of noticing.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

A lot of people say procreation is the "purpose" of life.  The survival drives all seem to be in service towards procreation. Once that has been accomplished in our prime entropy takes over and we become food for the next living thing.  Not something fun to contemplate if you are a purpose seeking animal with delusions of grandeur.


----------



## Nixiam

Ksa said:


> ^ It's true but you can twist it the way you want and say that a wheel turning is a consequence of it being round but at the end of the day its purpose is to turn.
> 
> If you look at life as a whole, the only common denominator is death, otherwise, between you and a fish living in a water depth of 8,000 feet, there is no common point, nothing makes you like the fish, other than the fact that both of you folks are dying.



When the wheel was desgned, it's purpose was to turn. True.

But when people were designed, be it God or nature, our purpose was to die? I don't think comparing these two is reasonable.

We more or less HAVE to die to keep things sustainable, but if nature was a concious being it wouldn't make sense to create something only to destroy it. Less the action of no longer existing is pleasureable. If our purpose was not existing, it wouldn't make sense for us to exist period.

Wheels cannot appoint their own purpose, whereas we can. If we are talking strictly about natures plan, I still say death is just a consequence, since existence would make no sense if death was the sole purpose. 

Also, I think that there's a difference between point and purpose.

A person can have a purpose (by nature), but they can make their own point (by man).


State of being makes us like the fish, as well as consequential death.


I would venture to say that guessing nature's purpse is little more than futile.

EDIT: But guessing point of man is silly since we make our own point, however nature makes our purpose (which I disagree is solely death).


Keep in mind this is just my opinion.


----------



## Dracarys

I think life is it's own purpose. I mean, the word purpose would not realy refer to anything, unless there would be things like desire, pain, etc. Everything i think i know, can be easily become extremely uncertain with just a little cartesian doubt. There are few things that i'm so sure of though, as my will to live, the feelings i have, and my fears and desires. No matter what you think of them, these feelings do exist, and they're too powerfull to be reasoned away or to be ignored. These feelings define us, make us who we are. We simply have to deal with them. So there you have it...purpose.


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## Ksa

Nixiam said:


> EDIT: But guessing point of man is silly since we make our own point, however nature makes our purpose (which I disagree is solely death).
> 
> 
> Keep in mind this is just my opinion.



Before you were born, what was? To that question some may answer "everything else but myself", others more self-important will say nothing. I say "everything else but myself, along with the possibility for me to exist". Because the fact that you exist today shows that it is a possible event, so that had to be possible before you were born, otherwise you wouldn't be here.

I'm asking you now, when you die, what is? Same thing, everything else plus the possibility for you to exist. It's obvious! If you existing was a possibility before you were born, why would it not be also a possibility after you die? Does nature obey the Millennium Copyright Act? If you happened once YOU can happen twice and an infinity of times, because YOU happening once shows that YOU are possible. Who is you? Who is I? Well...I, is I, and You...it's you. 

Does it really matter who is who? No. We are all the same thing: Creation noticing creation.

So it's all good man


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

I agree but wonder about your last sentence.  All good?  The reality that I see and experience is hardly all good. I hope you meant something else.


----------



## Ksa

Cosmic Trigger said:


> I agree but wonder about your last sentence.  All good?  The reality that I see and experience is hardly all good. I hope you meant something else.



I see what you mean. For other reading this, brother here is worried that his life now is not good, so if he has to start it over indefinitely what's up with that? Brother, you don't have to start over anything. What you are now matters not, otherwise, if we clone you, and another one like you appears, would that person also be you? Naturally not! Because you are NOT your genes, you are NOT your device, all you are truly is the ability to say "I am" and since anyone can do that you can be more or less anyone or anything after death.


----------



## Nixiam

Ksa said:


> Before you were born, what was? To that question some may answer "everything else but myself", others more self-important will say nothing. I say "everything else but myself, along with the possibility for me to exist". Because the fact that you exist today shows that it is a possible event, so that had to be possible before you were born, otherwise you wouldn't be here.
> 
> I'm asking you now, when you die, what is? Same thing, everything else plus the possibility for you to exist. It's obvious! If you existing was a possibility before you were born, why would it not be also a possibility after you die? Does nature obey the Millennium Copyright Act? If you happened once YOU can happen twice and an infinity of times, because YOU happening once shows that YOU are possible. Who is you? Who is I? Well...I, is I, and You...it's you.
> 
> Does it really matter who is who? No. We are all the same thing: Creation noticing creation.
> 
> So it's all good man



Quite a thought provoker you've presented. So in conclusion to this partial debate, what would you feel is the purpose of man by nature? And in correspondence to that, what do you feel is the self asserted purpose/point of human life (collective and individual)?

And finally, at the end of the day, what do you feel matters more when justifying life, nature's purpose for man, or man's purpose for man?

It's crazy how you can grow as a person just talking about things like this.


----------



## closeau

Dude, id pay money to sit in a room with a doobie and listen to you guys talk, lol. Very interesting stuff and way over my head but i do like the creation noticing creation theory or whatever it is. I also like Dracary post


----------



## Nixiam

Closeau, I'd smoke a joint with you any day.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

Nixiam said:


> Quite a thought provoker you've presented. So in conclusion to this partial debate, what would you feel is the purpose of man by nature? And in correspondence to that, what do you feel is the self asserted purpose/point of human life (collective and individual)?
> 
> And finally, at the end of the day, what do you feel matters more when justifying life, nature's purpose for man, or man's purpose for man?
> 
> It's crazy how you can grow as a person just talking about things like this.



To justify life is to give it man's purpose.  Nature  does not justify anything to us. We are the pawns and are moved about without knowing the game.


----------



## Nixiam

Well stated


----------



## swilow

Or we're not pawns and there is no game. I find it liberating, you get to choose your life. You cannot go wrong- what wrong?


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

Yes ultimately all bets are off.  However I'm not so sure you get to choose all the details of  your life. Even the parts you think you are choosing.  I'm not even sure there is a  "you" that chooses.  That's how mysterious this shit is for me at least.


----------



## swilow

Yeah, true. You can't 100% choose your circumstances and chance occurrences but you can choose how you respond.


----------



## closeau

Thanks Nixiam!!


----------



## Nixiam

As long as you don't mind contibuting to the delinquency of a minor 

God I love my life


----------



## merela

*Hope Helps*

It helps. I don't know why or even if there is a why. But it helps...for the moment. 





pmoseman said:


> This repeats some of what was said above, maybe it will spark ideas, or not.
> 
> Many things have purpose: pigs and chickens, bacteria and yeast, cars and sunglasses. The dead things are subject to laws of matter, nothing more, but why do the living things choose to do what they do? We put microbes in the warm environment they enjoy, serving our purpose, but even after you have eaten that fat pig and taken your own life out of serious depression, those little bacteria seem to think being alive is a great idea and are more than happy to utilize all that energy you have consumed to help themselves to being alive.
> 
> So why do they? Are we content to believe bacteria understand a deep and rich tapestry of meaning, while we fail to see the purpose of it all? Surely, we are the brighter of the two.
> 
> We may have a purpose for something larger, but not for ourselves. Neither thing is what keeps us going. The universe has a purpose for us, we are here to accelerate entropy, we are destroying ourselves, like yeast in the oven, but not before we complete the task and if we are lucky, all get eaten. In the truly big scheme of things, our years are so many minutes on an oven dial. Not real inspiring or meaningful, yet we trudge on.
> 
> Well... that is, if the universe has an actual boundary (which there can never be evidence of). Why would the universe (all known existence) just want to speed up entropy and destroy itself, as soon as possible. Seems a noble task, if you think of it like wanting to sleep, possibly be reborn, to be left alone, to be without pain. Not because it lacks any real purpose. But being dead then does not quench anything.
> 
> Viewing ourselves, we see that we do not control whether or not we are alive, we are born without any choice in the matter, and we get put in an environment with these maniacs, for whatever other purpose, that is not easily known. I am simply curious, why I would say revenge is one purpose of my whole life. In so much, as I want to feel like I have a choice. I want my choice to affect something larger than me. I want to know what that larger something is, what its purpose for me is, and how much control I have, and why it wants me alive or dead, because it doesn't feel like I have any control. Even if I could know, it doesn't feel like I can, I might turn out to be my own worse enemy. I may find out I am being kept alive for some evil, myself.
> 
> The purpose of doing work or creating work, to stay alive... and to hell with whatever the bigger picture may or may not be. This kind of purpose is directed inward, toward solving a problem like boredom, which can end up killing you, or protecting your skin from herpes or something. The work then has a purpose to simply keep us alive and comfortable. To keep our family unit alive. Simply being alive is very rewarding, in my opinion. This goes beyond simply existing, it goes into exploration and having those moments of joy that you experience by waiting around for them.
> 
> You don't need to be a human to experience being around, you could just be a brick. They exist, probably pretty cool... being a brick, to have no purpose of life beyond being a brick... or in a vegetative state. A brick being "dead" doesn't see the point of "living" either, maybe something else saw the point of it being dead, which was likely a human accomplishment, really, probably some forest fire we started 50,000 years ago. Then again, there is no particular reason that we became alive, for ourselves, in the meanwhile we think there is a purpose, and that is why we are still keeping ourselves alive... and why we are such useful little agents of destruction for whatever created us.
> 
> We have a purpose and nothing is going to a better job of telling itself it has a purpose than us. Kind of the reverse of what one might expect, or the inside out. There is almost a competition inside of me for finding purpose. With it I could acheive and control, without it I am wasting time and possibly being set up for some horrible death. What purpose am I fulfilling, in a survival sense, is a very vital question. I think the impulse for an irrational purpose comes out of nature and survival, and seeking our true purpose and convincing others they have a purpose is a really great for survival. Then the desire to "end it all" is just a gambit nature plays, which sometimes back-fires. After all, I seem to be accepting that life has no purpose, why should that even matter to us? Accepting that life doesn't have a purpose but deciding to go ahead anyway and hopefully eventually you will run into something unexpected. That's life, it is weird, but why would I want to kill myself? No purpose. Brick. All knowing, all powerful brick. You can just go on happily being a brick in all this chaos. The brick was... miniscule, unimportant, he found there was more to see, more important, intelligent, beautiful things out there than being a brick, and whether we actively choose to be "dead" or "alive" we stand a slightly better chance not to get eaten like a universal loaf of bread; so we create life.
> 
> There is definitely something going on. It doesn't matter how we got to this point... exactly, but we are now aware of a vast universe that we are not equipped to even explore. It is just crazy how much variety of how much stuff there is. If you want to call exploration a purpose, that is fine, I'll just hang around until something comes up, and dream secretly of revenge.


----------



## Ziiirp

The point in life is choosing and continually adjust the path, that provides the most satisfying version of truth for oneself. "The journey is the destination" might sound cheesy, but it contains more truth than any other axioms I heard of. So I chose it.


----------



## sigmond

the point in life is at its ends


----------



## Brendan12

So we take a point and extend it...there you have meaning..which is the abusal of a witch..and the atonement is oneness..inside and out is the knot..and the relation is verbal wave gravity..which is the forces of existence...how can you say it has no meaning..when you enchant people with your wicked tongue..the spawn of Satan..or anything else..we have to live together..and we all feel fear sometime..but we will get over it as a Messiah..which is the religion we seek..and you seek...you are real..in the world..and universe..existential..as existence..conscious..and one with the universe...you must understand that what you do and type on a forum means you are giving your life purpose..and therefore the purpose is shared with other people..from which is the grayest nutrient of the firmament of the tree of life..which is an electron..just buzzing around..toward the noble capital is an atom..and the neutron is seen in the rings of a tree...which is why things form the way they do..upwards and outwards is our motion..and we are self contained in caps called spheres of motion..which are the planets..and the Birds and the Trees are all part of one philosophy; together we move further and further into the way..and we void ALL ASPECTS OF EXISTENCE; ..THE REAL QUESTION IS: WHAT ARE YOU?


----------



## ramajamsam

The "purpose" of life is wrapped up within life itself - to live with passion, to find or create meaning in a meaningless world, to rise above the existential dread & live life to its fullest, engaging in whatever makes you feel truly happy, truly alive, that is the true purpose in life, none but yourself gets to define what life means to you - if you don't like what I'm saying, disregard this as well, I'm just putting my personal perspective out there, I'm not "objectively" correct anymore than anyone else is...


----------



## Xorkoth

^ I agree with this.  Purpose in life is multi-layered.  There is biological purpose (ingrained survival and reproduction motives), and then there is the greater purpose, why are we alive?  It's to experience life.  Living life to the fullest - taking advantage of opportunities, doing what makes you feel passionate, and so on - is the way to feel fulfilled in this purpose.  We have a culture as a society that glorifies cheap thrills and distraction, working a mindless job, being a certain way, and it often crushes this.


----------



## closeau

Right now I think the purpose is love. I recently fell in love for the first time and the feeling is better than any drug. Such a warm, natural feeling so I have her and my daughter so if I forget the purpose of my life I look into her eyes and I remember. Love, that's all and I like the creation noticing creation thing


----------



## belligerent drunk

The real point in life is for every individual to come up with a point for their life in an otherwise pointless existence.


----------



## Brendan12

So you start with a dot..and extend..this is your emotions and thoughts...if you extend it far enough you get to experience the joy of infinity..and if you extend it to the point of end..all things should be fulfilled thus..and so you are sharply experiencing reality..and this can lead to a sojourn or two..you can analyze your reality and make it into poetry which would be symbolizing your reality and taking it as a metaphor..you could call yourself dull..but only to the point of the bulks head end..or the bitter water drop of the felt ink pen..or ball point thereof..there is lots that you are..and there are a million things you can say about yourself and your world through metaphor..and metaphysical analysis..


----------



## Ninae

Brendan12 said:


> So we take a point and extend it...there you have meaning..which is the abusal of a witch..and the atonement is oneness..inside and out is the knot..and the relation is verbal wave gravity..which is the forces of existence...how can you say it has no meaning..when you enchant people with your wicked tongue..the spawn of Satan..or anything else..we have to live together..and we all feel fear sometime..but we will get over it as a Messiah..which is the religion we seek..and you seek...you are real..in the world..and universe..existential..as existence..conscious..and one with the universe...you must understand that what you do and type on a forum means you are giving your life purpose..and therefore the purpose is shared with other people..from which is the grayest nutrient of the firmament of the tree of life..which is an electron..just buzzing around..toward the noble capital is an atom..and the neutron is seen in the rings of a tree...which is why things form the way they do..upwards and outwards is our motion..and we are self contained in caps called spheres of motion..which are the planets..and the Birds and the Trees are all part of one philosophy




I like your poetry.


----------



## fluttervalve

OP is on to something here. With every argument taken in to consideration our time here on this watery rock in finite. At some point in the future the sun will become a red giant star and that will be it for all of us. It will incinerate the earth like a blade of grass in a raging forest fire. Everything we've accomplished, built, discovered, learned, taught, will all be gone like we never even existed. And the galaxy we live in will continue on like nothing ever happened. So yeah, there really is no point. Party like a rock star, use up them fossil fuels and live like it's your last day, because it just might be.


----------



## malakaix

fluttervalve said:


> Everything we've accomplished, built, discovered, learned, taught, will all be gone like we never even existed.



I always liked the Buddhist practice of creating intricate sand mandalas for weeks and then destroying it afterwards to signify the impermanence of life.


----------



## belligerent drunk

fluttervalve said:


> OP is on to something here. With every argument taken in to consideration our time here on this watery rock in finite. At some point in the future the sun will become a red giant star and that will be it for all of us. It will incinerate the earth like a blade of grass in a raging forest fire. Everything we've accomplished, built, discovered, learned, taught, will all be gone like we never even existed. And the galaxy we live in will continue on like nothing ever happened. So yeah, there really is no point. Party like a rock star, use up them fossil fuels and live like it's your last day, because it just might be.



We have quite a few millions of years of Sun left. Other forms of extinction are *way* more likely, especially if we continue to disregard current environmental issues. It would be a _miracle_ if we lasted until the Sun's death.


----------



## cyberius

We exist to change the status quo. You are just a concept furthering the order of previous abstractions.

The universe > Forces > Life > Cultural Composition > You

The universe acts much like a mind with time being the depth of a thought. As complexity increases the forces get more and more sophisticated and multifaceted, but everything always inherits the will of the abstraction behind it.

You do live to please religious figures, but not in the way you think. You serve the higher _good_ every time you take a breath, please yourself, or put out energy. Culture and life model certain structures and there are certain "molds" that life tries to fit into. You have a lot less control than you think you do and your happiness isn't really yours, it was granted to you for conforming.


----------



## Cosmic Trigger

Looks like everyone has an opinion based on what? Nothing from what I've seen so here's mine. Life is a bad deal for all animals with a nervous system. We are here to serve evolution which has no  purpose and most of that servitude involves physical or mental suffering. We are meat  puppets and will soon go extinct no matter what monuments to our "superiority" we built to glorify ourselves and our make believe gods. It's just the decline of another empire in the same ways the others have passed. And we never get to know anything about anything. It's guesses all the way down and our guesses are almost always based on a need to comfort ourselves from the harsh reality of existence. 

So who's going to tell us all next what the truth is? I can't wait to hear all about it.


----------



## Xorkoth

Cosmic Trigger said:


> Looks like everyone has an opinion based on what? Nothing from what I've seen so here's mine. Life is a bad deal for all animals with a nervous system. We are here to serve evolution which has no  purpose and most of that servitude involves physical or mental suffering. We are meat  puppets and will soon go extinct no matter what monuments to our "superiority" we built to glorify ourselves and our make believe gods. It's just the decline of another empire in the same ways the others have passed. And we never get to know anything about anything. It's guesses all the way down and our guesses are almost always based on a need to comfort ourselves from the harsh reality of existence.
> 
> So who's going to tell us all next what the truth is? I can't wait to hear all about it.



See, the way I see it, the experience of life is itself the purpose or the goal.  The alternative is nonexistence.  Is nothing whatsoever preferable to something, even if that something involves suffering?  Is nothing even possible?  I may be wrong, but to me awareness is a property of the universe.  So it's either exist in a void of awareness of nothingness, or explode into physical form and be aware of some sort of experience.  Infinity in a void sounds awfully dull.  My opinion on this matter is colored by an experience I had where I encountered the void, and I'd prefer to live a varied life containing highs and lows.



			
				b_d said:
			
		

> We have quite a few millions of years of Sun left.



Billions actually if I recall correctly.


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## Cosmic Trigger

Yeah you get an opinion too. I have no idea what is true but some of the intense suffering I see makes mine seem trivial, yet I don't like the life I've been born into.  When I was young and ignorant of what kind of suffering was actually possible I  thought that taking the good with the bad was worth something because I had a belief that somehow my life would end in some kind of triumph. Experience over time has colored my views now to see it as more or less a waste of time especially if science is correct in it's views that limit our possibilities of free will. When I think of what can actually take place in human life in the possibilities for individual suffering whether that person is "good or bad" and the, IMO, mindless actions of almost all humanity in sheep like conformity I have lost my attraction to experience overall. But I'm an old man with a body that is failing and lacking comforting beliefs in any afterlife or a purposeful growth in a "soul" that goes on and on. So I hope when I die that's it for me for good. If there is a void I won't know anything about it so the void would not disturb me in any way. You can't experience anything if you don't exist.  Sounds like the best deal to me.


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## Cosmic Trigger

Tell me how you know anything for sure?  How about explaining your position rather than continuing to take potshots that don't say anything.

In the long history of human knowledge from religion to science what we thought we knew today is eventually shown to be wanting. Humans not being the creator cannot know ultimate truth.  We just make either educated or ignorant guesses.


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## belligerent drunk

Xorkoth said:


> Billions actually if I recall correctly.



My mistake. I meant billions.


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## Cosmic Trigger

Human knowledge has always been lacking when it comes to ultimate truth. That's why there are so many conflicting ideas on what that's supposed to be. 
  Now how about answering my question if you're in the know.


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## theMerovingian

There is no point to this whole mess. Whatever meaning that could possible exist might seem disappointing to you. The thought or idea that you create as an individual to get through life is probably what matters. But honestly there is nothing but the abyss and to me thats the relief. That one day I will cease to exist and evaporate forever consciously and physically. Once I'm finished with this life I jut wanna be dead just cease.
Its Friday
Peace folks.


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## -=SS=-

I would have thought it was quite apparent there is a point to life.. all biological life follows the same basic pattern and we do too. Perhaps it is only mans arrogance that blinds him to a deeper meaning to this apparently simple point [of reproduction/fertilizing the earth]. We contemplate and ruminate elsewhere, thinking there can't be anything more to the basic pattern! But maybe there is and we just can't see it.

I don't buy the position of the universe being pointless, in fact it amazes me that people don't recognize the signs of order, pattern and intelligence running through it at all scales. 

Pointless, no. But things don't matter necessarily. I think there's a difference there.


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## Cosmic Trigger

I think that's what most people mean when they say pointless. They mean it subjectively based on their personal needs or desires.  You are correct that at the very least it seems to be apparent that we are here just to pass on DNA. But who knows if that's even happening. This could all be virtual or something else totally unknown to us. We are not the creator so we really ultimately don't know.  In the early days of Science ala Newton etc. it was assumed that we would understand everything in just matter of a few decades or so. But when Newton who is arguably the most brilliant scientist who has ever lived couldn't figure out what gravity was he gave up on his claims that we might figure everything out. We still don't know what the fuck gravity is. For some  people that's part of the fun I guess. Others feel very insecure if they can't convince themselves that everything that is important to them can be known by them or by our species. The more I look into things the more complex and ultimately unknowable things seem. I think many scientists would agree these days.


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## belligerent drunk

Cosmic Trigger said:


> The more I look into things the more complex and ultimately unknowable things seem.



That's mostly because as we move further with our knowledge and understanding of the universe, we move farther away from the stuff that we evolved to understand (the middle-size world). Things like the quantum world, or the really large, are hard for our biological brains to understand and make analogies of because we never lived on that scale ourselves. All we can do is make extrapolations of what our senses show us, or more correctly, what we interpret the scale we live in to be. But those extrapolations fail to work if you go deeper into the atomic, especially sub-atomic scale. We can do the maths, sure, and make very good predictions; but we can't _really_ understand.


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## Cosmic Trigger

Right


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## -=SS=-

Cosmic Trigger said:


> The more I look into things the more complex and ultimately unknowable things seem. I think many scientists would agree these days.



This is kind of the issue we have generally as modern humans, as alluded to in my post. We're consistently looking outwards for answers to the big questions as opposed to looking inwards - because we believe we've already largely grasped, isolated, classified and archived the basic mechanics of ourselves. We haven't. 

All we've done is conceptualized ourselves away from inward looking. We've denigrated all the major religions as junk nonsense, allowed psychology to proclaim that our brain is our mind, the biological sciences to claim that thought is just synaptic reactions contained inside the skull, and so forth. It's all very convincing but doesn't hold up to examination if you approach it honestly.

The Truth is unknowable to the majority because they don't actually want to know, not because it isn't possible.


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## Cosmic Trigger

As far as I've seen the truth is unknowable to the totality of humanity unless you can provide some evidence otherwise.  In other words what you are saying is ultimate truth can be known without being able to demonstrate the truth of that statement. Well anyone can make that claim and they do.

*So what is the truth?  *  Serious question to be answered please. 

And it's not true that all people are just looking without. Many have looked within to find nothing but mystery of which I am one and many of my friends over the years including some who we would all consider religious/spiritual.

Here's a great talk by Chomsky that seems to address some of this as the "outside" is something we can address with some evidence even though this talk does address the ideas of spirit to some degree.


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## -=SS=-

Cosmic Trigger said:


> As far as I've seen the truth is unknowable to the totality of humanity unless you can provide some evidence otherwise.  In other words what you are saying is ultimate truth can be known without being able to demonstrate the truth of that statement. Well anyone can make that claim and they do.
> 
> *So what is the truth?  *  Serious question to be answered please.



This is going back to what I said originally, looking outwardly for answers. Honestly I can't tell you what Truth is, not because I don't want to or couldn't try to put it into language, but because it has more to do with objective vs subjective. The following is a quote from someone who did know the Truth and hopefully conveys to you my point.



> 'Have you seen God?' I asked. 'And if you have, can you enable me to see him? I am willing to pay any price, even my life, but your part of the bargain is that you must show me God.'
> 
> 'No,' he (Ramana Maharshi) answered. 'I cannot show you God or enable you to see God because God is not an object that can be seen. God is the subject. He is the seer. Don't concern yourself with objects that can be seen. Find out who the seer is.' He also added, 'You alone are God,' as if to rebuke me for looking for a God who was outside and apart from me.



---

You will have to summarize a point from that video.. I couldn't watch more than 3 minutes without falling asleep. Lack of charisma, vocal dynamism and endless word streams tends to have a soporific affect on me.


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## Cosmic Trigger

I'm not going to force feed  you something you don't want. That's not my intent. You have however not made your case in the least. Especially saying you can't show me anything. That's the same thing I hear from every Catholic, Christian, Reptilian, Flat earther, Republican and Democrat and on and on. And a quote supposedly by someone neither  you nor I have ever known at all is not worth much to make a case. Hell  you weren't even interested in what I  posted.  It's all words on both sides yours and mine and that's my  point and I've made it.


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## swilow

I imagined that Chomsky may not be SS's cup of tea  I dig him, he's articulate and thought provoking albeit somewhat polemic. His Requiem for the American Dream (Netflix) is really interesting.


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## Cosmic Trigger

That's a whole nother can of worms.


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## swilow

Tis. 

I was thinking that a nicer way to phrase this is "theres nothing you need to do". There's no point or goal to life, so you can't really go wrong. There's no right way to do this. Acknowledging the pointlessness of life can be depressing but such value judgments are human conceits. It is what it is until its not. 

Hmm.


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## Djmartinez4154

realtalkloc said:


> if you think beautiful people like Jessica Alba just suddenly came into being without any creator by them, then you are lost the way many other people are, and in order to learn about your creator you must turn to religious scripture. No other way.





Lmfao religion is a business and a cult, a guide tool for those who cannot lead an those that need to find reason.


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## -=SS=-

Cosmic Trigger said:


> You have however not made your case in the least. Especially saying you can't show me anything.



Actually I have, you just don't get it. May I suggest you try reading some poetry? You're far more likely to find something of value there than in the circular intellectual vanity that Chomsky represents.


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## Cosmic Trigger

You didn't even read Chomsky and yet you feel authorized to comment on his message.  Also I read poetry, I'm currently reading the poetry of James Douglas Morrison and Charles Bukowski and I even write a little or have in the past.  Maybe you also  don't get what I'm saying. 

 I'm not here just to put down your  POV but rather to discover new truths for myself and share what I've come to believe. Let me restate my position. I'm not saying there is no truth. I'm saying that in 63 years of what I believe to be a sincere search for truth including listening to your views I have not found that I or anyone else can with certainty say what ultimate truth is. Believe me I find this unfortunate and wish my search were otherwise but I do feel the need to be honest with myself. I've searched a lot and feel myself to be at least moderately intelligent and soulful with a fair amount of empathy and compassion for life. 

 So maybe since you can't demonstrate your POV in a way I can "get it" we will have to let it go at that, as from here we will just likely argue needlessly. If your beliefs bring you ultimate satisfaction and feel your conclusions are rock solid and the future will not hold any surprises for you then I'm happy for you and wish you well.


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## Cosmic Trigger

rmikhail said:


> You keep responding in this defensive manner, but have I ever claimed to be in the know? I'm just saying objectively, as a species, we've come a long way from ignorance. Whether or not it's noticeable in the average person doesn't negate our overall progress. Additionally, what you personally might deem as stupid or pointless is really just an issue of circumstance and relativity. You can't let your bitterness cloud your judgment like that. If you were able to concentrate and internalize all the knowledge we've accumulated over the course of our existence, you'd see it doesn't merit shame or scorn. There is a clear progression in all of this and I'd go as far as to say that there's a set destination as well.



Wait now. You're the one who just made this comment  out of the blue with no explanation * Glad to see you keep lying to yourself this way. * I've been very respectful to  you overall and yet  you have been warned at least twice by a moderator for personal attacks on me. My POV is that we don't know anything with absolute certainty since we did not create ourselves or our Universe as far as we know. I did not say that humans have no useful knowledge. I've presented at least one source that backs my POV.  On the other hand you just seem often to want to attack me  personally rather than providing something that might convince me that your position has merit.  I'm just having a POV and you get one too. However I express it as long as I don't attack you personally should not be a reason to attack me for my beliefs. That's  intolerance. I  certainly tolerate  your views even if I don't believe them.


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## Cosmic Trigger

There you go again making this  personal what your accusations I'm full of hate.  Frankly I'm sick of it.  I'll bet you never even looked at what I  presented yet you know it doesn't relate to the subject yet is certainly and directly does.  Everything you are saying are things that I didn't say.  Did I say we are going nowhere?


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## belligerent drunk

I'd have to agree with rmikhail that we've come a long way, and going farther and farther with our understanding of reality.

Whether we know the stuff we know with absolute certainty or not is a redundant question. You can present countless arguments why we can't know anything for certain, but that's useless, isn't it? We agree to a "satisfying enough" degree of certainty (such as 95% etc) in science, and I think that's our only option, really. As you said, we did not create this world, but we do live in it and so instead of wallowing in misery, let's do what we can. 

Also, it's okay to say "I don't know". If after honest and thorough search throughout your life you haven't compiled enough satisfying evidence to prove a point one way or another, then it's OK to admit that you _just don't know_. I think it's liberating in a way, and humbling; maybe we can't know everything?

E: guys please, keep it civil. If you want to settle a personal argument, take it to PM.


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## Cosmic Trigger

Yeah like I'm the one who hasn't been civil. That's great moderating. I have nothing personal against this  poster.


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## -=SS=-

Cosmic Trigger said:


> You didn't even read Chomsky and yet you feel authorized to comment on his message.  Also I read poetry, I'm currently reading the poetry of James Douglas Morrison and Charles Bukowski and I even write a little or have in the past.  Maybe you also  don't get what I'm saying.



I just have little patience to sit down and listen to (or read) long winded word streams, and the cynic in me immediately resists because chances are that person is just trying to bamboozle or hypnotize the audience anyway.. for money or otherwise. Just get to the bloody point, you know? 



Cosmic Trigger said:


> Believe me I find this unfortunate and wish my search were otherwise but I do feel the need to be honest with myself. I've searched a lot and feel myself to be at least moderately intelligent and soulful with a fair amount of empathy and compassion for life.



If you consider empathy and compassion prerequisites for realizing Truth then I think you may need to consider another angle or approach. Not that they're bad qualities or anything. But let me ask you this - do you believe, honestly, that you have applied yourself to the search for an ultimate answer with all your determination? Have you put in the same time and energy one would for say a college degree? You may well have, only you know of course.

All I would suggest is that if you really want _it_, then you will find it, but you won't find it outside of yourself.


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